Astronomy Cast: Recent Episodes
Astronomy Cast
The Saturn 5 was a monster, capable of sending humans and a lander to the Moon and bringing them back again. But the number of heavy lift rockets since then has gotten pretty sparse. Now, with tens if not hundreds of thousands of satellites in the works, giant new space telescopes and multi-ton lunar landers in development there are heavy lift solutions to match. So let’s talk about them! From yesterday's Saturn V to today's Ariane VI, rockets capable of launching large telescopes or small space stations in a single go are modern marvels. They are also wildly dangerous, and not exactly compatible. Let's look at today's fleet of rockets and just what they're accomplishing.
Well, we’re just a couple of weeks away from summer hiatus and so it’s time to give you some homework. Here’s our list of stuff we’ve been reading watching and playing. This should fill the Astronomy-Cast-shaped hole in your media landscape. On the plane, on the beach, from the passenger seat in a car, summer is a time for escaping into a good book, video, or game. From classics to the latest releases, here are our recommendations for keeping your brain occupied while your body is renewed.
Show Notes Books
- The Edge of Space-Time, Particles, Poetry, and the Cosmic Dream Boogie — Chanda Prescod-Weinstein
- Reentry — Eric Berger (the story of SpaceX's reusable rocket revolution)
- The First Law & The Age of Madness series — Joe Abercrombie (start with The Blade Itself)
- Dungeon Crawler Carl series — Matt Dinniman (especially the Jeff Hays audiobooks)
- When the Moon Hits Your Eye — John Scalzi
TV Shows
- Ahsoka
- The Expanse
- Voltron
- Stargate SG-1
- Alien: Earth
Movies
- Badlands
- Prey
- Project Hail Mary
- Frankenstein
- Mickey 17
- Close Encounters of the Third Kind (rewatch discussion)
- Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure trilogy
Games
- Minecraft
- Slay the Spire (and Slay the Spire 2)
- Path of Exile 2
Other Topics
- Summer weather, heatwaves, thunderstorms, and ongoing earthquake activity in Nicaragua.
- Why Chanda Prescod-Weinstein's work bridges physics, philosophy, and culture.
- The growing Dungeon Crawler Carl franchise, including audiobooks, comics, RPGs, and a TV adaptation.
- Thoughts on recent science fiction, fantasy, and gaming trends to keep astronomy fans entertained over the summer.
TranscriptFraser Cain:
AstronomyCast, Episode 798, our summer media list. Welcome to AstronomyCast, our weekly facts-based journey through the Cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I'm Fraser Cain, I'm the publisher of Universe Today.
With me as always is Dr. Pamela Gay, a senior scientist for the Planetary Science Institute and the director of CosmoQuest. Alright Pamela, I'm going to ask you the question, how are you?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I am humid, or at least my room is humid. So are we. It's like 30,000%, I mean, it's actually in this room 88% humidity, and I had to turn the dehumidifier off to record, so yeah.
Fraser Cain:
We got nasty hot yesterday, and then today is cloudy, but then it's like the heat turned into humidity, and so now it's just gross and sticky, but yeah, this is, I mean, El Nino, this is going to be a funny summer.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah, yeah, although we've been having luck in terms of all the massive thunderstorms hitting the Midwest have been going north of us, so it's like the weather forecast is you're going to die, you're going to die, you're going to die, nothing, and it's just wild.
Fraser Cain:
So it isn't weather, but we have a slow rolling swarm of earthquakes on Nicaragua right now. Okay, yeah, yeah, so we've got some slow slip faults, I forget exactly the geology term for this. It is very safe, yeah, and we haven't felt them at all, but there are near constant earthquakes going on right now here in this sort of, I don't know, two to four magnitude level, but they're constant.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah, we have that here because of the New Madras fault, and the place that you notice it is retaining walls built with the bricks that stack on top of each other will just slowly- So they're just getting shaken all the time. They just take themselves apart, so yeah, you have to rebuild those every few years.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, we don't use those, we don't use bricks here because of that. Your houses just explode, like there's no point, you use timber, steel or timber.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Whereas we have a brick factory in town.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, yeah, well, we're just a couple of weeks away from summer hiatus, and so it's time to give you some homework. Here's our list of stuff we've been reading, watching, and playing. This should fill the Astronomy Cast shaped hole in your media landscape.
All right, as we always do, and I think we've expanded it wisely to include not just the books from your summer reading list, but also the movies we've been watching, the TV shows we've been watching, the games we've been playing, because we have very lopsided amounts of those various things that we consume. And so this will give us a chance to sort of cover all of our hobbies in one place. But let's start with reading, because I think this is what people are hoping to hear from us.
So, I mean, we should definitely cover some of like, if you just haven't read these, you should read them because we recommend them every six months. And then, and also some new stuff that we're reading that maybe people haven't heard of.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So to start with new stuff, I just read The Edge of Space-Time, Particles Poetry, and the Cosmic Dream Boogie by Chandra Prescod-Weinstein. And I made the mistake of getting this book in audio. I read audio all the time.
And the reason it was a mistake is this is the kind of book that was just chock full of ideas and phrasings that I just wanted to underline. And so there's just like all these little things in it. I'm trying, my desk is literally covered in post-it notes from reading this book.
Wow. And like, one of my favorites was Black Holes are Melting Pots, and the universe is just as complex today as it was in the beginning. It's evolving, but the complexity isn't changing.
I'm paraphrasing terribly. And there's just these neat things that were just slightly different ways of looking at our universe that I just want to think on. And I think the one that's going to stand with me the most is because she was talking about space and time, one of the things that came up was in the Bantu language, the whole to be or not to be doesn't mean quite the same thing because to them, to be is both a time and spatial thing.
So whenever you say to be, you are defining both. And I just love the implications to physics of starting from a language that has those two things intrinsically tied together. So yeah, I am going to stop gushing.
Just go get the book, people. Go get the book, write all over it, enjoy it.
Fraser Cain:
And what's the book again?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It is The Edge of Space-Time, Particles Poetry and Cosmic Dream Boogie. It references music, it references literature, it's just good. It's by Chanda Prescod-Weinstein.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. And she's a treat.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
She is.
Fraser Cain:
I've interviewed her a couple of times and is sort of just a great sort of mix of deep axion knowledge.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah, particle physics.
Fraser Cain:
Because her specialty is in, yeah, her specialty is in particle physics and specifically the axion as an explanation for dark matter. And then a much wider kind of science communication and cultural awareness. Yeah, absolutely.
Great person to both interview and chat with. So I have, I've read, it's funny, you brought up like a non-fiction book and I've read a ton for my work and now I didn't even think to write any of them down. And so I had interviewed astronauts and interviewed, I interviewed Eric Berger and he did a recent sort of book about SpaceX and sort of what had happened with their sort of push for reusability.
And you know, it really kind of sets the modern state of where we are in reusable rocketry leading up to, but not quite sort of covering what happens with Starship. But more all about the reusability and stuff of Falcon 9. And this was the, this was the sequel, um, right.
Okay. So, so the first book that Eric Berger did was called Liftoff. And this was like the original development of SpaceX.
And then the second book is Reentry, which covers the, the reusable phase of the, of the company's development. And I think, you know, like obviously SpaceX just went IPO, it is a incredibly controversial company, especially with the behavior of the CEO, but it is worth understanding the company, what's going on, what their plans are, what they say their plans are versus the actions that they actually take. And Eric Berger is a wonderful kind of ambivalent journalist about the company.
And so it is definitely not a fan boy coverage of it. And so I think he was horrific. So and now I'm going to talk about a fantasy series and this is by an author named Joe Abercrombie and he's got sort of two main series that he did.
One is called The First Law and the other one's called The Age of Madness, sort of two trilogies. And it's sort of low fantasy, so like Conan the Barbarian type fantasy or like old Jack Vance, which is one of my favorite fantasy authors. Really well written.
And what is really incredible about it is the, is the characters. He is a master of telling characters and the gist is about, it's, it's kind of Games of Thrones-esque where you've got various kingdoms, they're dealing with an ongoing threat and the political machinations and a threat from the North and so on. But the, the individual characters who kind of rise and, and to, to solve this problem are very complicated, very shades of gray in them.
You know, one is a torturer, one is, one is, you know, the veteran of countless battles and he's starting to sort of have a little bit more empathy for his common man. And it's just, they're so good. They're so good.
And this is, this is a recommendation from my son, who is, he's decided this is his absolute favorite. You know, originally it was Dinaman, which we're going to talk about in a second, but this is his new absolutely favorite fantasy series. So this is Joe Abercrombie, The First Law and the Age of Madness trilogies.
The first book is called The Blade Itself and it is just terrific. I'm, I'm, I've almost finished the first book and I'm, I'm just going to be guzzling them all down. So.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So shall we go to Dinaman?
Fraser Cain:
Let's talk about Dinaman, yeah, yeah, he's, he is the 800 pound gorilla that is now consuming all media.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So, so his Dungeon Crawler Carl series is the best of the books he's written. He did a, I think it was the Kaiju Surgeon before it. Do not read that unless you're willing to go to a very dark, gruesome place.
It is, it is going, yeah, it, it takes you to not great places. Dungeon Crawler Carl, amazing. Project Bounce House is good.
Fraser Cain:
I haven't read Operation Bounce House.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
The Dungeon Crawler Carl, it exists in standard audio book, full cast audio book, which has additional content, a web tune, which has yet more additional content. They are working on a role playing game that comes out in the fall. They are working on comic books with additional, and a TV show.
Yeah, I keep forgetting about the TV show. That one wasn't on Kickstarter, so I don't get emails.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, yeah, the TV show is, is Seth MacFarlane is behind it.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So one of my favorite quotes is part of this. This is another one of those series that is going to force me to buy it in paper so I can underline and dog ear. I, I'm bad to the books I love.
But the quote is, you will not break me. You can hurt me, even kill me, but you will not break me. And, and that idea in our modern world where so many of our freedoms seem to be under threat is just so cogently expressed.
Fraser Cain:
And I think like the Dungeon Crawler Carl books are not high literature. You are not going to feel challenged at your core and cause you to rethink your perspectives on man's inhumanity to man. You are going to be wildly entertained with a level of ramp, ramping up stakes, the likes of which you have never experienced before, and you cannot believe how bonkers this book gets.
And the fact that Seth MacFarlane is trying to turn this into a TV show, the good luck dude. This is like, I don't know how some of the stuff that is covered in these books could ever turn into anything that would be practically possible on screen because it is bananas. And I cannot, I cannot understate how wild.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Like an anime, I could see it as an anime.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. Anime would work fine.
But live action? But live action. I can't, I cannot, I can't.
Like, how do you cover some of the things with thousands of characters, the set pieces that are in this, the costumes, the, the, the special effects that would be required. It is bonkers, incomprehensible to me that someone is going to try and attempt this, but good luck dude. If you can pull it off, then I'll watch it.
But yeah, they're, they are, they are terrific. And I'm, I've, I haven't read this, the eighth book that just came out. Loved the first seven.
Definitely listen to the audio books if you can. If you, if you, because the, um, Jeff Hayes, the voice actor, Jeff Hayes just does an amazing job. He's so good.
He does different voices. You'll think it's a bunch of different people, but it's not. He's doing all these different voices.
He is phenomenal and it makes it, it just takes it to the next level.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And there is a full cast recording where Jeff does his best characters. So he's still doing Carl. He's still doing, uh, Princess Donut.
He's still doing the ones that are like, he defined those characters, but then some of the other ones where he's kind of meh, like Hekla, they bring in, um, Katja is another one. Icelandic and him do not get along. Um, so sound booth theater, the books one through four are out in full cast.
Fraser Cain:
That's amazing.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
So, um, it's like bordering on like radio plays and stuff.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
It's such a, it's so good. Yeah. So you really, you know, reading, listening to as an audio book is definitely doing this and this will keep you busy all summer, right?
Eight books at this point, they are, they get better and better and better. Um, they get, the stakes get higher, the, the, the set pieces get wackier. It is just, and, and he never forgets a thing.
It's true. So every single piece has a reason that gets brought into the, that somehow shows up every, he is carting around a Chekhov's dump truck worth of, of things set to go off that he then has, uh, various, uh, payoffs later on in the series. It is.
Yeah. It is incredible. I can't even imagine the, the amount of, you know, the, the red string spaghetti wall of connections that he's got on where, however, however he is plotting out these, these, uh, these books.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
They are absolutely great. And I think perfect summer reading, right? Like just, it is light, it is entertaining.
You will not be able to stop turning the pages. They are so good. All right.
Well, let's shift gears down and let's talk about TV.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Uh, all right. There are so many books we didn't get to, I'm going to be adding a bunch of stuff to the notes. Um, so, so if, if you liked, uh, uh, clone wars, if you liked rebels, go watch them all.
It, it is in the timeline between those two series. It is really well done. I, it will at the last episode, have you going, no, because now you have to wait for the next episode.
Um, right. It's not and or quality. It is definitely rebels quality.
So keep that in mind.
Fraser Cain:
It's that same, it's that same creator, same voice, same style, same voice actors. Yeah. Yeah.
Very worried. Um, so, so for me, the one that sort of quickly jumped up to one of my top shows of the year was pluribus and it went from, you know, this is by Vince Gilligan, same, same director behind Breaking Bad. He worked on the X-Files, uh, Better Call Saul and, and pluribus is a masterpiece.
It is, it is slow, but the concepts are mind bending and it is really well done. And if you aren't familiar, essentially the world is taken over by an alien hive mind and is told from the perspective of a woman who is somehow immune to this and is trying to, uh, negotiate with the hive mind to remain out of it. Um, and, and it is just, it is so good.
So good. Uh, that's pluribus. Pluribus.
Yeah. Yeah. And that's on Apple, Apple TV.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I just finished Invasion and it is definitely better in the first season than the other two seasons. And that made me sad.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. Invasion was not great.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
But I, I've decided I need some joy in my life. So I'm going to rewatch Expanse, which has no joy, but it is comfort food.
Fraser Cain:
Yes.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Um, and I'm going to rewatch Voltron and see if it's still any good all these decades later. So, so those are my comfort foods that get rewatched this summer.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. We're still doing our Stargate SG-1 rewatch. We're into season eight now and they totally hold up.
There's a hundred percent. Um, and the other TV show that went onto my top 10 of all time that also came out last year was Alien Earth. Yeah.
And this is, this is on Disney plus this was done by the same director. I forget his name, but he's the one, he did, um, was it Mutant X? So it was sort of like a retelling of, of an X-Men story.
And it was weird, but it was good. And this is, this is, but it was sort of like more weird than it was good, which is always like a very delicate, I'm always sort of very skeptical when a person attempts to go weird, but Alien Earth is weird and good.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Noah Holley.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Noah Holley. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, he, he introduces new terrifying xenomorphs into the canon and they are like a, like a little alien that goes and replaces the eyeball of anything that it is in. Um, so good.
So good.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And you start to understand the history of the humanoid robots, which is something that I don't think has really been addressed anywhere else.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, it's like set on earth.
And I think, you know, when you hear the premise, you're like, oh great, this sounds terrible. Like what is it? Xenomorphs rampaging around on earth.
People are fighting back. No, has, it's none of that. It is a totally different story about evil corporations, games up, you know, sort of having this, this one upping one another corporate malfeasance with this, with, with the potential incursion of, of aliens on earth.
And it is, it's absolutely terrific. Um, and again, in my top 10.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
One of the things that got me about this is it, it introduces this concept probably without even meaning to that mega corporations start to be like that, uh, schism between, uh, I think it was Portugal and England where the Pope divided the world. And so we see these mega corporations of, well, that's my property and you have to pay if you go there. Well, that's fine.
And you, and, and so just this division of, it was just sort of like, oh no, this is actually where we're going.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like these ideas were handled quite well in Neuromancer by William Gibson.
And they sort of take this idea of corporations, mega corporations as, as state actors, much more than just as, as corporate, you know, businesses that exist within a nation. They are nation states of their own and yet they, they cross boundaries and they have powers the likes of which even the nation states that they're within cannot match. And, and are at the cutting edge, the bleeding edge of the technology, of the development of artificial intelligence and of, of going out, finding monsters and bringing them back to earth, damn the consequences.
So imagine if you had Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, all of these various mega corporations, but they literally had no limits and, and we're trying to be better than one at all. Yeah. It's, so that whole layer to it just elevates it into another level of, of art.
I, I loved it so much. Let's talk about movies.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
All right. So if you're going to bring up Alien Earth, Badlands is a completely different look into the aliens predator universe.
Fraser Cain:
Oh, that's the predator Badlands. Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It is just a delight. Um, it, it, it shows you a different side of the predators. It shows you, um, basically a kid coming of age and struggling and I mean, one of the predators here and yeah, it's just a delight and I don't know what to say that won't give away plot points, but it has the humanoid robots.
It has essentially kaiju and I'm here for kaiju always. Um, it, it, it was, it was a popcorn thriller.
Fraser Cain:
Yep. Totally. Totally.
If so, it's by the same people that drew God, it was the same people that did like the Clover Field. Anyway. So yeah, yeah. So, so like really good, solid filmmakers and you're exactly right, which is that the predators are, are not believable as villains because they're just like mustache twirling, evil, evil hunters that have, but no, in this they try and focus on sort of explain the society, give you some glimpses about how it works and then, and then sort of explain the hunting as, as, as part of this. And, and that worked really well for me.
And then just the, the action and the, the, the creativity and the monsters.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. A hundred percent. I agree with you.
Ella Fanning in it is just fabulous.
Fraser Cain:
Yep. She's perfect.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Um, so yeah, it's director Dan Trachtenberg, highly recommend, grab yourself a pizza, some soda, kick back and just prepare for a nothing burger of a delight. Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. And like, there's no way people haven't watched Project Hail Mary yet, but if you haven't, go watch it.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
And like, it's going to probably leave theaters pretty soon. I mean, if it hasn't already, it's going to switch to streaming, switch to DVDs, but, but go and enjoy it in the, in the theater if you can.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Have you seen Disclosure Day? I haven't yet, but I'm hearing good things about it.
Fraser Cain:
Sure. So, uh, Karla and I have been watching a lot of, I've been on my DVD buying kick. And so I, I now have about 300 DVDs behind me that I've been picking up at thrift stores over the last year.
And I pick, I got Close Encounters of the Third Kind. And so we watched that and that was an experience. Um, not what I remembered at all.
Uh, I didn't love it.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
You took like four when it came out. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Um, I didn't love it so much. Like a lot of the ideas and sort of thoughts about aliens have kind of aged. Yeah.
And so apparently like it was Close Encounters, E.T., which I, I refuse to watch again. Like I cannot bring myself to watch E.T. And then, um, Disclosure Day or sort of like a trilogy says Spielberg. Oh, really?
So yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Like E.T. blew my mind, but I want that, I want as a child, but I want that memory to exist in that, in my memory, not for me to watch it as a 54 year old man going, Oh God, cringe. This is terrible.
Um, and then, um, you had a couple more, more movies that you had seen recently.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Right. So Mickey 17 is one about cloning that is just a, Oh, this is the direction it could go in. Isn't it?
Um, yeah.
Fraser Cain:
So this is the direct same director of Bonjimoon is the same director that did Parasite.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Right. And, and you can see that. And the basic premise is people can sign up to have their personality dumped from body to body to body, but they're only allowed to be in one body at a time.
And an accident occurs where they think someone has died doing just like these people are assigned to do terrible work, dangerous work, medical research, all that sort of stuff where ideally you want to test on a human being, but really you should not. So they're doing it on clones because that's more ethical. And, and so it raises all of these questions as you go it, including, is it cheating if it's one clone and another, um, so it's, it's a book I wrote, not a book.
It's a movie.
Fraser Cain:
I, it is. Okay. I did not know that.
Yeah. Yeah. It's based on a book.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So I enjoyed it. And then I also, Frankenstein is super pretty and it is the closest retelling to the actual book that I think I've ever seen. Like it includes the, the going through the ocean, uh, and finding Frankenstein out on the ice that I, I don't think I've seen in a movie ever before.
And it's just so pretty. It's pretty.
Fraser Cain:
So my, um, comfort food was to rewatch the Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure Trilogy with Carly. And I was super nervous cause I loved it when I was young and they're great. They totally holds up.
Uh, the first one is charming and, and, and fun. The, the second one is fine. It's you know, with a bunch of kind of clever elements and the third one is really good as well.
So watching all three movies, I, they're on my top 100 sci-fi movies of all time or the first one is, and I was, I was like nervous, like, Oh, does it belong there still? And it, yep. It's terrific.
I still loved it. So last but not least, we should talk about video games and you just have like one video game.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I play Minecraft. I like Minecraft.
Fraser Cain:
I play Minecraft.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's who I am as a person.
Fraser Cain:
So Splay the Spire is one of my all time favorite games and they sort of define this genre, the deck builder genre, where you are making your way through this spire, this castle, and you run into these encounters and then you get cards that drop and then you have to sort of build a deck of cards you can then play. Well, it's everything. Okay.
It's on everything. Yeah. And it's, it is, it is kind of like you're playing Magic the Gathering or Hearthstone, but it is unfolding in real time and you're building the deck from what you find and you're having to make these compromises and the, and the fights get harder as your cards get better.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Oh man.
Fraser Cain:
But also your card gets kind of, your, your, your deck gets overlooked. It is the greatest game. It is, it is like top five best games ever made.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
One time payment or micro payments?
Fraser Cain:
One time payment.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Okay.
Fraser Cain:
Um, it came out like maybe five, six years ago. And so Slay the Spire 2 just came out and they sort of went back and, and, and came up with entirely new encounters, but they kept the entirely new classes for you to play. Yeah.
You haven't played Slay the Spire?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I haven't. I live in fear of games because I'll get addicted and then you won't see me for eight months.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. This one will destroy you. You know, Slay the Spire, the original one will destroy you, but it is, it is so good.
It is so good. And then Slay the Spire 2, also very good. Um, and, but, but it's, you, you can never recapture the feeling of playing it in the first place.
Like it is, it is great. It is great. And there's UI improvements and the totally new encounters and totally new spells and new dynamics and new, but, but when you play like a, yeah, make sure if you do get Slay the Spire, uh, and it is great cause it'll play on your phone.
It'll play on your Steam Deck. It'll play in your computer. It'll play in your iPad, like whatever device you have, they have a version of it on your switch.
You can play Slay the Spire and it is, it is so great. Um, and like defined a whole genre of these deck builder games.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I do play Magic the Gathering in real life.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. So it's like if you just want that same itch where you're opening up booster packs to get booster packs to get new cards and figure out a way to use these in new and interesting ways. Slay the Spire does that except you don't have to invest any money and the, every run is different and you start to build up these, this understanding of the deeper mechanics of the game.
It's yeah. And then there's different classes, different classes operating different, totally different ways. Uh, and yeah, they're so good.
Um, and then the other one is the new season of Path of Exile 2 and they're still in, there's a 0.5 so they hadn't even gone to their full release yet, but we're about a little over a year since they first came out for beta for Path of Exile and the new, uh, 0.5 edition. They redid the entire end game, add a bunch more classes, made the crafting system a lot better. It is starting to approach the complexity and quality of the original Path of Exile, but is, has a much better engine.
And this is kind of Diablo. Like if you've ever played Diablo, running through dungeons, killing monsters, picking up their stuff, improving your character, rinse, repeat, but Path of Exile is just that for spreadsheet nerds. And Path of Exile 2 is trying to sort of make it more of a, more of an interesting, um, accessible game while still having a lot of the deep mechanics and they're, they're starting to kind of get to the point where the Path of Exile 2 is, is as good as Path of Exile 1.
I still like Path of Exile 1 better, but, but, but two, if you want an introduction, if you like want to start playing the game now, it is very polished, uh, definitely on its way and they're hoping to have it released by the end of the year for 1.0. It's, it's amazing. And you know, relatively inexpensive, you can play Path of Exile for free and then you can play Path of Exile 2 for, I think 30 bucks to just get an account for it. Yeah.
It's not bad at all. And it'll give you, I mean, I have two or 3000 hours of time to Path of Exile 1. Yeah.
And it probably 300 hours into Path of Exile 2. So yeah. Yeah.
Bang for your buck. It's literally limitless.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
All right. I think we've reached the end of our episode. So hopefully this will give people some ideas and we tried to give you new stuff that maybe you hadn't heard of before.
So that will keep you busy over the summer.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
There's one book that I need to mention that I didn't get in.
Fraser Cain:
Sure.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
John Scalzi's When the Moon Hits Your Eye is absolutely ridiculous. And if you just need escapism physics, um, Phil Plait, one of our friends was the science advisor on it and it is a delight. Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
He turns the moon into actual cheese.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It is. It is a must read at some point.
Fraser Cain:
Yes.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And we'll bring you silly joy.
Fraser Cain:
That's great. Fantastic. All right.
Thanks pal.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Thank you, Fraser. And thank you to all of our Patreons. Some of you are realizing you can make me say silly things by having silly Patreon names.
To those of you who make me laugh, I raise a toast. To those of you with names I'm about to mispronounce, I'm just really sorry. Here we go.
This week, I would like to thank a bit of bear, Alex Cohen, Andre Palestra, Arctic Fox, Bore Andra Lovesvall, Benjamin Carrier, Bob Kale, Brian Cook, Buzz Parsec, Cody Rose, Daniel Loosley, David Bogarty, Diane Philippon, Dr. Jeff Collins, Eron Zegra, Father Prax, G. Caleb Sexton, Glenn McDavid, Greg Vylde, Helga Bjorkog, Janelle, Jeanette Wink, Jim Schouler, Joe McTee, John M, Jordan Turner, Caleb Axson, Keith Murray, Christian Golding, Laura Kettleson, Lana Spencer, Mark Schneider, Matt Rucker, MHW1961 Super Symmetrical, Michael Regan, Nala, Noah Albertson, Paul D. Disney, Pauline Middleink, Randall, R3, Robert Hundle, Sergio Sansevero, Sandra Stanz, Scott Briggs, Sergei Monolov, Stephen Coffey, The Big Squish Squash, Triker, Will Field, and Zero Chill.
Thank you all so very much.
Fraser Cain:
All right. We will see you next week for the final episode. Bye, everyone.
Bye-bye.
Live Show
Mars is cold & dry today, but the evidence is growing that it used to be warmer & wetter. with seas & oceans that covered large parts of its surface. With the additional findings of the chemicals for life, the search for life on Mars is getting pretty interesting! New results from Perseverance and Curiosity describe a past Mars with complex chemistry and water. But did it have life?
Show Notes* Summer astronomy and spaceflight highlights * Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope launch outlook * Roman’s role in mapping the cosmos and exoplanet studies * Chang’e 7 mission to the Moon’s south pole * Future lunar exploration and resource utilization plans * Hayabusa2 flyby of asteroid Torafune * Upcoming asteroid missions, including Tianwen-2 * Quasi-moons and their possible lunar origin * August 2026 total solar eclipse in Europe and the Arctic * Perseid meteor shower under dark, moonless skies * Crescent Moon passing through the Pleiades * Partial lunar eclipse in late August * Starship, Blue Origin, and major launch updates * Artemis timeline and lunar lander development * Retirement of the Atlas V rocket * Challenges and delays facing upcoming space missions * What to watch in the sky during the Astronomy Cast summer break
TranscriptFraser Cain:
Astronomy Cast, Episode 797 Summer in Space 2026. Welcome to Astronomy Cast, our weekly, facts-based journey through the Cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I'm Fraser Cain, I'm the publisher of Universe Today.
With me, as always, is Dr. Pamela Gay, Senior Scientist for the Planetary Science Institute and the Director of Cosmoghost. Hey Pamela, how are you doing?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I am itchy, poison ivy is ivying here. I need a goat, I can't find a goat. Do they have rental goats where you are?
There are places in the U.S. you can rent goats.
Fraser Cain:
I have seen videos, I have definitely admired goat rental from afar, but I am not aware of any place that one could rent a goat here in my area. Although I would if I could, because there's all kinds of shrubbery that I would love to sort of dial back. They apparently will just tear through the Himalayan blackberries, which are awful here on Vancouver Island.
They're tasty, but they are awful. Yeah, yeah. I always mention this, how grateful I am that we don't have venomous snakes or venomous plants.
I feel I'm bulletproof. I walk into the forest, I might get a tick if I'm out for days and days and days. And obviously there's the occasional mosquito, they're named.
But apart from that, we have... And then a bear, obviously we watched bears crossing our property last night.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Oh, that's cool.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, there's that. Yeah, we have a bunch of just bears that will move through our property and they'll just follow the same path every day for a couple of weeks while they're eating the dandelions right now. And then they'll move higher, higher elevations than we don't see them for the rest of the summer.
But this time around, you know, May, June, we see a lot of bears. Mamas with babies. Yeah, it's spicy.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I had a snake that decided it was going to be super bitey, but like it was smaller around than my thumb. So I just made fun of it.
Fraser Cain:
Was it a garter snake?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It was a garter snake. It was very determined to bite me.
Fraser Cain:
All right. We're about to take a much needed two month hiatus, but just because we're not here doesn't mean that space stops existing and doing things. Today, let's give a preview of the big events due to happen in space this summer.
So you can prepare yourself and make sure you don't miss a thing. OK, so, you know, you you and I both did some research in preparation for this episode, and I feel pretty confident that we are not leaving our audience that bereft for the next two months. There's actually not a ton of really big events that are going to happen, except for like one that's great.
But there's a bunch of smaller events and then one that will probably be delayed and will probably fall back into our schedule anyway, or we'll be able to report on it moments after. So I'm I'm spoilerizing what's about to happen. So let's sort of break this into two areas.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I need to know what you consider the one really great event. Oh, the eclipse. OK, big solar eclipse.
It could have been the launch of Nancy Grace Roman.
Fraser Cain:
That's the one that I think is going to happen right at the end. We'll probably get delayed. And so, yeah, I think, you know, we're safe to run the rest.
We've got some conjunctions. We've got some lunar events. We've got some sort of milestones for various spacecraft, astrophotography opportunities.
Yeah. And then some classics that come around every every time of year. But we don't have like maybe there'll be some more tests of SpaceX.
But Blorgen is kind of out of the running for several months.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah, but there could be another Starship explosion.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, there may be or more launch. Who knows? But even that they're sort of in a in a sort of time after the last test where they got to get a bunch of stuff dialed in.
There are no big plans to send crew. Not a lot of big changes to missions. No space launch systems are going to be launched.
I feel we could not have timed this better for what is in the launch docket right now and in the celestial space motion docket.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yes.
Fraser Cain:
But let's just pick something that you think is going to be interesting that people should keep their eyes peeled for this summer.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So Hayabusa 2 flies past the asteroid. I'm going to say this so wrong. So wrong.
I'm sorry. Torafun.
Fraser Cain:
I'm going to say Torafune if it's Japanese.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It is Japanese.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, I'm going to guess Torafune. But I have not learned Japanese yet.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It's true.
Fraser Cain:
But now I've been there twice. I've been to Japan twice, planning to go again at the end of the year. So at some point, I'm going to have to take the leap and actually start learning some Japanese.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So this is the mission that went to Ryugu and collected a sample and flung the sample back at Earth. And we have the sample and the mission kept going. And so this is another near-Earth asteroid.
And I am excited to find out if it's another rubble pile like Ryugu or another cashew like Itakawa.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I'm hoping for another cashew.
Fraser Cain:
And each one of these asteroid close encounters are precious and individual. Yeah, they're super important. And there's like there's nothing that is as good as getting a picture up close from these asteroids.
Like you compare the blurry images that are taken, the single pixels that are seen from Earth-based telescopes. And you compare that to just the luxurious detail that we saw from OSIRIS-REx or Hayabusa to it's there's no comparison.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It's just awesome.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. And each one gives us entirely new information. You know, there's not like you see one asteroid, you've seen them all.
You literally could see every single asteroid. And only then will you have seen them all. Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Vesta and Ceres are huge and radically different. The little ones are all. And it's not the only encounter we're probably going to have in July.
The other one. So Hayabusa 2 is a JAXA mission. And then we have, you're going to say this correctly for me in a moment, Tianwen-2 gets to the quasi-moon.
Kama-oalewa? It's Hawaiian.
Fraser Cain:
Kamo-oalewa, I'm guessing. And that is a Hawaiian term, a language neither of us are learning.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So this is a Chinese mission. The exact date of the arrival is unknown. But again, little tiny spud.
This is another asteroid, except this one got captured ever so transitorially. I'm perhaps making up words into Earth's orbit. And so we're going to have in July close-up images of two new worlds.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, these quasi-moons are really interesting because, you know, one of the possibilities is that these are coming, that these are from the Moon, that to get an object that is in a very similar orbit to the Earth, it had to have a source. And the one source is that it could have just been three-body interactions with various asteroids that kick something into this place where it's now a quasi-moon.
You know, it falls into our gravitational well, hangs out with us for a little while, then falls back out again and goes about its merry business and then hangs out again. And typically they'll stick around for a few orbits. But the case seems to be building that a lot of these quasi-moons have a chemical fingerprint that is very similar to the Moon.
And then you can sort of think, okay, so maybe these things are chunks of the Moon that were gouged out by fairly large impacts at some point in the recent past.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Or leftover bits from the Theia-Earth collision.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Which would be incredible. Yeah.
Right.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And then there's also the, we don't know what other chunks may be out there from, like, did Theia have a Moon before it hit into us? That is like science fiction territory here, folks. I just entered science fiction.
Most likely this is a leftover chunk from the collision or something gouged out of the where there are craters kilometers deep.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Yep. So very useful.
And of course, Tim Wynn is then going to be heading off to its future sample return mission. So, you know, there's a lot. And then it's going to end up going into orbit around another comet.
So there's, it's got like a bunch of work. It has a future. Yeah, yeah, totally.
And so, and I love this kind of opportunistic, there happens to be something that's on the, on the trajectory of the spacecraft. Let's just, let's just take a close look. And so we're going to get an image of this little, as you say.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And, and it's something completely novel.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, totally. Again, every asteroid is its own unique butterfly. What else you got?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Um, so, so those are the two big missions that have me super hyped. Then in August, we're looking at potentially the Chang'e 7 launch. This is another lunar mission.
This one's going to the South Pole region. Again, it is specifically tasked with looking for water. And, and so we're, we're starting to see better and better chemistry, uh, missions being launched by China, both going and sampling Mars and bringing it back, going and exploring for water on the moon.
China is really killing it with its slow and steady approach. And then there is hope that on the last day of August, we will see the Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope launched into orbit, which will give us another infrared observatory. It's a survey telescope.
It, it has all sorts of really cool capacity to see planets, um, and a whole bunch of other stuff. It's just the planet stuff that a lot of us are excited about. So yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Nancy Grace Roman is your next big telescope to be obsessed with.
Uh, the history of this, of course, is that it was a spare mirror provided by the natural reconnaissance office to NASA. And then NASA, and they said, you know, we, we've got these Hubble class mirrors that we don't need anymore. Would you like them?
We're just going to throw them in the garbage, uh, because we've got much better mirrors for spying on, on earth. Uh, would you like to do something with it? And, and NASA thought about it and decided that they would make something that they would change, put on different secondary optics than Hubble and make a wide field version of Hubble, but was also in the infrared.
And, and this thing is going to be phenomenal. So much faster, brand new instrumentation. It is going to map out the cosmos at, at a speed and a scale, the likes of which really we only have kind of on earth.
We have Vera Rubin.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Sphere X is doing its own thing, but it doesn't have the resolution or the depth.
Fraser Cain:
It's compared to the size of, of Nancy Grace Roman. And what I love about this telescope is that it is on budget and it is ahead of schedule. Originally it wasn't thought that it was going to launch until 2027.
Well, here we are in 2026 right now. And the, and it like the launch date just keeps coming forward.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
And, and so it's incredible that we're going to see this thing launch. Ideally, uh, August 31st is the day they're targeting, but you know, one does not simply book a return trip to a rocket launch. Therefore I think we can safely assume that this thing is going to delay at least once or twice.
And so hopefully it will fall back into our regular schedule. And, and when it does, uh, then we're allowed to talk about it, right, Pamela? Oh, I guess after it does some science, we'll get some, wait till first light.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. And there's going to be a double header of learning about Nancy Grace Roman, who was the first chief scientist of NASA and the person who really sphere headed the, uh, uh, completion of the Hubble space telescope. Um, and, uh, we'll talk about the mission and the human and it's all super exciting.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. So those are the, those are the confirmed scheduled things.
Uh, there's a few minor things, there's, you know, there's going to be a background constant cadence of, of probably Starlink launches coming out of SpaceX. There's going to be other minor missions. Um, rocket lab is, is planning a mission.
So not neutron. No, no. Um, and then, and you sort of brush past it, but yeah, I think the, the, the Chinese Chang'e seven mission is going to be a big one that, you know, that is them, uh, you know, this one's going to have a hopper, an orbiter, a relay satellite, a lander, uh, and a sample return mission.
It's going to go to the South Pole of the Moon. This is the place where all of the water ice is likely contained. And so this is a really exciting target.
And then this is going to lay the ground for the next one, Chang'e eight, which is coming 27, anyway, a couple of years. And that's going to be doing its issue resource utilization on the surface of the moon. We're going to try to 3d print things on the moon.
Um, and then this is leading up to 2030 when hopefully Chinese astronauts will set foot on the moon for the first time. Let's talk about some of the interesting natural events are going to be happening during this summer.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So, so your heart belongs to this solar eclipse that is 62 days, 21 hours and 11 minutes away, according to time and date.
Fraser Cain:
I love the time that we're recording this. Okay.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Time and date has a really cool countdown clock. If you're into countdown clocks, it amuses me. Um, this particular solar eclipse is one that is like in the extreme Northern polar regions and then dips down into Europe.
It's not great for human beings.
Fraser Cain:
I would describe it as terrible. If you look at literally, if you look at the path, like, like think about the one that, that we just had, right. Was it the 2022 one?
- The 2024 one. Yeah.
It went, it went Mexico. Just straight across America. Uh, the United States and into Canada.
The 2018 one went all the way across the United States. Yeah. Everybody who wanted could make their way to some place and not be completely on top of each other.
But you look at the trajectory that this one is taking. This map is just so terrible. Is making a little cut on Iceland.
So like, great. Like Iceland can handle that kind of traffic. Greenland.
Greenland. Yeah. So who's going to go to Greenland to, to watch an eclipse.
And then it makes this tiny little pass through a little chunk, like right through the isthmus of Spain. And so all of Europe is going to descend upon this tiny little spot in the corner of, of Spain. And so unless you live there, unless you've got your, your accommodation locked down, this is going to be a nightmare getting in, getting out.
Traffic is going to be like, you remember how awful the traffic was for the various North American eclipses. This is going to be a nightmare on brutal little roads, mountainous roads. This is all like, you've got to be really serious to do this one.
Um, there's some, uh, eclipse cruises. I got, I get invited to do one.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
There's some in the Mediterranean and there's some in the North Atlantic.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. I got invited to do one and I was like, I'm going to pass. You need to pass those on the main.
Oh, okay. All right. Yeah.
I'll pass them. Pass. Two pairs.
Yeah. So yeah, this one, if you live in Europe and you live close and you've got a place scheduled and you're okay to hunker down for a while, both before and after the event itself, then go for it. But I think transportation accommodation, this one's going to be rough.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
There's some islands in the Mediterranean that again, you are going to be packed in and unable to move. But saying I watched an eclipse from a Mediterranean island just sounds kind of luxurious. Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
It's just, it's just finding the accommodation. Yeah. It's just going to be tough.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
But then August 27, 28 is a lunar eclipse. And the thing about that solar eclipse on August 12th is this is the same time as the Perseids. So forget about the solar eclipse.
No one cares about the solar eclipse. I mean, some people care about the solar eclipse.
Fraser Cain:
Some people care.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Solar eclipses are the best, but sure. But this means there is a new moon not illuminating the sky when the Perseids is one of the big three meteor shows every year is going to be doing its thing.
Fraser Cain:
Yes.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So this is your chance to go out, see Meteor Shower. If you're where I live, watch lightning bugs going nuts and see if the meteors outnumber the satellites. That's always the question nowadays, but there'll be no moon.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. There'll be no moon. This is so important.
Like if there is a bad moon, I just don't even bother.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Right. The Delta Aquariids don't bother.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Not worth it. But when there's a good moon, then you do it.
And the Perseids for the Northern Hemisphere, we understand Southern Hemisphere, you exist. This is not for you. For the Northern Hemisphere, this is the best one because you've just got nice temperatures outside.
You can go out, set up, lay on your sleep cot, lay on the ground, have your friends around you, fall asleep to the Perseids. And with a new moon, this is an absolute dream version of it. So we couldn't ask for a better Perseids Meteor Shower this year.
So if you are at all interested, if you need an excuse, yeah, if you need a hammock excuse, yeah. August 12th, 13th, so like the night of the 12th into the 13th, plan something, please. Some of my favorite memories are my parents setting us out to watch the Perseids Meteor Shower.
These are the memories that will last a lifetime for you and your kids.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And if you can afford to take more time off, on August 7, there is an event that is going to have me finding a farmer's field with my tripod if it's super hot and I don't want to go camping. The crescent moon is passing through the Pleiades. This is something I've seen through a telescope before, just a little refractor.
It's gorgeous. And I really hope that I can get some good shots of it with my 600 millimeter lens. And this is just one of those.
There's places on the sky that have more stars than others. There's places that are prettier than others. And when the crescent moon, which is not as bright, passes through star clusters, you get this really cool, you can see the dark side in earth glow.
You can see that thin crescent and then you see all the stars around it and you actually see how bright the sky is. So that's actually one of the things I'm most looking forward to.
Fraser Cain:
But you have to act quickly, right? Because that is happening early, like right after sunset. You get the crescent moon, Pleiades is already going to be very low on the horizon and then it's over.
And so then, you know, the way eclipses work, they go in groups. And so usually you get a solar eclipse and that's followed by a lunar eclipse. So there will be a lunar eclipse, which is going to be August 27, 28.
So that's going to be right at the end of our time away from you.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And it's only partial.
Fraser Cain:
Well, it's partial, but it's a good partial.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So it's a good partial.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, it's a 93% partial, which means that the moon will go completely, you'll see the Pac-Man chomping, taking away from the moon. It'll go completely dark and then it'll turn red briefly before it comes out the other side of it. And so you're going to get a pretty good view of the moon for this one.
I would take it.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah, I am excited. Yep. Africa, Europe.
I am more excited about that crescent in the Pleiades.
Fraser Cain:
Really, huh? Yeah. Most of the Americas and Eastern Pacific.
So, you know, again, it's fairly well positioned. So think Eastern North America, across the ocean, Europe, parts of Africa. It should be a well positioned eclipse for people to be able to see.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. And basically, August is enjoy the moon.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I'm a little bit sad because originally the Griffin one mission or Griffin mission one was supposed to launch that month and it's now delayed into November. But we are getting to the point where as we look at the moon, we can start to imagine there's going to be a whole lot more clutter on that surface fairly soon.
Fraser Cain:
Yep, yep.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And enjoy it. Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
So we've covered kind of like the space exploration events, the natural events. I guess we should talk about some of the things that are a bit in flux, and we don't know if they're going to happen or not. So let's talk about what SpaceX is up to.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So this week, there should be the initial public offering, which they're hoping will garner, what is it, $1.75 trillion.
Fraser Cain:
Or a valuation, they're not going to be able to take home, they're going to take home whatever, a couple hundred billion, merely.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
But I did an 11 page, I don't know how I wrote that many pages, assessment of the consequences of what they're planning to do and breaking down the numbers. Wow. The thing that got me about this is in Q1 of calendar year 2026, SpaceX lost $2 billion across their four divisions.
They are on target to lose roughly $8 billion in 2026, which exceeds the NASA Science Mission Directorate budget, which is only $7.25 billion.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, do you remember when SpaceX was the Jeep?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah, yeah. So we're currently looking at a situation where SpaceX is throwing away more money than, throwing away is the wrong word, they're losing more money than NASA has for science. Now, all of what they're planning hinges on Starship working.
Um, they were planning for their next Starship to be the catch. The FAA has said, nope, you guys get to hover over the ocean one more time. Because they had booster issues, their booster kind of exploded.
So we are looking this summer, there should be the launch of Starship 13.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, we should see another launch.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And there are currently a lot of concerns because we haven't seen any refueling testing. The NASA announced earlier yesterday that the Artemis 3 test in 2027 will have a Starship that does not have any of the human capacity, it's just going to have a docking port bolted on to it. So Starship is desperately behind schedule for what it owes NASA.
And they haven't proven anything other than satellite deployment. Now they can do a lot of what they want to do on ballistic missions using Starship without actually going orbital.
Fraser Cain:
Or with Starship being disposed of.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Exactly.
Fraser Cain:
They could launch a heavy lift mission and then crash Starship into the ocean if they wanted to. It would be much more expensive than a fully reusable rocket. But it might be something that gets them back on the path to fulfilling their obligation.
So we're going to see. Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
What's wild is they are essentially planning to need as much methane per year as 10% of US exports.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, you say it all depends on Starship. I actually think it all depends on whether or not the AI bubble pops.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah, that's another side. But yeah, the AI bubble is going to pop.
Fraser Cain:
How the bubble will pop is the question.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Right, exactly.
Fraser Cain:
And when. And so they happen to originally, back when it was XAI, they wisely, turns out, invested in a gigantic compute infrastructure. And that is the bottleneck.
And so all of their competitors are coming to them to pay for computing on their systems because they weren't able to make their own AI model function very well. And so they're actually making money hand over fist on just renting out their servers, like a lot of money, like a billion dollars a month or something. It's crazy.
And then the other thing that would have had implications or we would have been watching was the events of New Glenn and what's happening with Blue Origin. They've got their Blueman Mark 1, which actually did a successful test in the big vacuum chamber at NASA. And so that is going to be the lander.
They're going to do some test launches of that lander later on this year. And that's all still on schedule. Then you've got the Mark 2, which is going to be the one that's going to carry humans.
And they were able to kind of get back into the consideration for being able to send humans to the moon as part of Artemis 4 or whatever comes after that. And then they've done one launch. They've successfully tested the reuse of a booster.
And then they had this disaster at Launchpad LC-36A. And that was bad. The rocket exploded.
The launch platform is heavily toast. The mobile transporter is toast. Looks like the various buildings and tanks and water deluges and all that, that all seems okay.
But they're looking at probably 18 months of rebuild. And so various events we were expecting to come out of Lourdes in the summer, they're not going to have.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And the Mark 1 lander fits inside the Falcon Heavy fairings. So the issue is that SpaceX doesn't have any way to fuel it. So they're trying to figure out, is there a way to fuel the Mark series vehicles in a SpaceX rocket to at least give us multiple rockets for this lander?
There's a lot to be worked out. And we're going to learn just how fast can they rebuild things when you have enough billionaires involved.
Fraser Cain:
So I would not be surprised if nothing happens this summer. I would literally not be surprised if we come back at the beginning of September and no human... No Starship, no New Glenn, no Mark, anything.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
None of that.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. One launch from Rocket Lab and of a satellite and that's sort of like the big events. But the Japanese are going to be launching an H3 to the space station.
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
We're saying goodbye to the Atlas V rocket.
Fraser Cain:
That's right.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
The last Atlas V not assigned to a Starliner and no one knows when Starliner is going to get launched.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, that's an end of an era.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. Atlas V is an old workhorse. So there will be six on retainer for when they either do use the Starliners or give up on the Starliners, one or the other.
But that's it.
Fraser Cain:
Okay. So, you know, hopefully we've given you some events, but I also feel like I hope you guys don't feel like we're leaving you in a lurch. Things seem very calm, I believe.
And there are two more episodes. And there are two more episodes, for sure. But I feel like when it comes to space, although space is still going to exist and still do stuff, we have asked it very nicely to just slow its roll, take a vacation, just be chill, have a good summer with the rest of us.
All right, Pamela, we will see all of you next week. We're not going anywhere yet.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Nope. See you all next week and stay cool. It's horrible out there, folks.
And thanks to our patrons. Some of you have figured out you can get me to say truly ridiculous things by having truly ridiculous usernames. To those of you who make me laugh, I salute you.
To those of you whose names I'm about to mispronounce, I'm just really sorry. This week, we would like to thank Alan Gross, Andrew Allen, Antosaur, AstroSets, Bebop Apocalypse, Bob Zatzke, Brian Bede, Burry Gowan, Claudia Mastriani, Dale Alexander, David, David Rostiera, John Mundus, Elliot Walker, Fairchild Just as it Sounds, Frodo Tannenbaum, Gerhard Schweitzer, Greg Davis, Hannah Tankery, James Signorowicz, John-Baptiste Lematne, Jim McGeehan, John Holstein, John Herman, Jonathan Poe, Justin S., Katie and Ulyssa, Kimberly Rieck, Larry Zatz, Lou Zeeland, Mark Sher, Masa Herleu, Matthias Hayden, Michael Wichman, Mike Huzzy, Nick Boyd, Patricia Hope, Paul Lowell, Rajev Akari, Richard Drumm, Robert Cordova, Ryan Amari, Sam Brooks and his mom, Scott Bieber, Semyon Torfason, Steve Rutley, T.C. Starboy, Travis C. Porco, Rutley, and wiped only three times because I like the itch. Thank you all so very much.
Fraser Cain:
All right. Thanks, everyone, and we will see you next week.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Bye-bye.
Live Show
Mars is cold & dry today, but the evidence is growing that it used to be warmer & wetter. with seas & oceans that covered large parts of its surface. With the additional findings of the chemicals for life, the search for life on Mars is getting pretty interesting! New results from Perseverance and Curiosity describe a past Mars with complex chemistry and water. But did it have life?
Show Notes* The search for life on Mars * Viking mission and its lasting impact on Mars exploration * Evidence that Mars was once warmer, wetter, and potentially habitable * Discovery of ancient rivers, lakes, shorelines, and possible oceans * Confirmation of water ice by the Phoenix mission * Curiosity rover's detection of organic molecules * Perseverance rover's search for biosignatures and ancient habitability * Bright Angel Formation and promising organic discoveries * InSight's contributions to understanding Mars' interior * Growing evidence for long-lived liquid water on Mars * Why Mars Sample Return is essential for confirming past life * Perseverance's cached samples and retrieval plans * The delayed Rosalind Franklin rover mission * Tianwen discoveries of ancient Martian shorelines * Sample return missions as the next revolution in planetary science * Could Mars preserve evidence of ancient microbial life? * Future prospects for robotic and human exploration of Mars
TranscriptFraser Cain:
It's the 365 Days of Astronomy podcast, coming in 3, 2, 1. Astronomy Cast, Episode 796, Oceans and Organics on Mars. Welcome to Astronomy Cast, our weekly, facts-based journey through the Cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know.
I'm Fraser Cain, I'm the publisher of Universe Today. With me as always is Dr. Pamela Gay, Senior Scientist for the Planetary Science Institute and the Director of Cosmic West. Hey Pamela, how you doing?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I am experiencing levels of spring that are unlike your levels of spring, but my weeds are taller than I am in some of my flower beds. Oh my goodness, things are growing like never before. And you have them trying to breed in your nose, from what I understand.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, so I returned from a trip in Japan to a wall of histamines. You know, all of the plant matter had been waiting for me to return. And so it's literally the moment I got off the plane in our home city, the allergies came roaring in.
And I am a Claretonian, and still, I know you can probably hear a little gloopiness in my voice. So I will do the best that I can to minimize it, and you know, our editors will clean up the dad sounds. But yeah, man, it is gorgeous.
You leave your garden for two weeks, you come back, and it has been busy and it's surprising and it's wonderful to see all of the changes. And no deer got in, which is great. So I get to see what trees look like when they're actually allowed to grow as opposed to savaged by brutal, cruel deer.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I have one hilarious green bean plant. They're growing up strings. And I have cages around the bottom.
And then the cage only goes up so high. And there is this naked section on the vines that is the part the groundhog could reach over the cage. So leaf, leaf, leaf, naked, leaves.
It's glorious and excellent. And the groundhog survived getting picked up by my dog and carried off.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. If you don't garden, why not?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It's the best.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. Obviously, you know, some people don't have a room to garden, but even if you have like a little balcony, get gardening.
All right. Mars is cold and dry today, but the evidence is growing that it used to be warmer and wetter with seas and oceans that covered large parts of its surface. With the additional findings of the chemicals for life, the search for life on Mars is getting pretty interesting.
All right. So I want to talk first about like setting the scene, which was the dead end that the Viking mission got us to in the search for life on Mars. Can you tell this story?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So the Viking mission had three different experiments on board that were designed to try and identify, is there life here? Both by looking to see what chemicals were getting metabolized, how the air in the container was getting metabolized, and by looking at the organics. And they realized that one of the experiments, they had not taken into consideration the reality of Mars, and it was utterly inconclusive.
Fraser Cain:
The worst kind of conclusive.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yes. One of the experiments was like, there is life. And then everyone's like, no, no, no, no, this must have a different explanation.
And then the third one was like, I got nothing. So we have yes, no. And did we take into consideration everything we should have?
And this has led to squabbling that persists to this day, to this day, right now, as we are recording this, the National Academy of Science, there is a two day meeting going on, on astrobiology and signs of life, where they were discussing these experiments this morning. So literally to this day, on this day, this is getting discussed. And so the thinking was, some people were like, yes, there is present day microbial life on Mars, and they will go to their graves arguing even for lichens.
And then the majority of the field, which is honestly over it with all of the people claiming aliens is like, no, Viking did not prove anything, it did not prove anything. And so from the 1970s until the early 2000s, everyone was like, no, Mars is dry, Mars has never had water, we're going to explain the canyons, we're going to explain everything that looks like fluid flow, as aeolian processes, which means wind, it is the coolest word. And not fluvial processes, which means water, less cool of a word.
And then we started landing landers again.
Fraser Cain:
But I think the, I mean, more than just landing landers, there were orbiters, there were images from the, from orbit, that told a story that was really hard to explain by wind patterns alone, that you're seeing craters, where rivers are flowing into them, and rivers are flowing out of them, you are seeing features that can really only be explained by moving water. And, and, and that I think, so then, they sort of, you know, the way they described is they went back to the beginning, they ripped up the foundation, went back to first principles and said, okay, let's just start by telling the story of this, of Mars. Let's just like, was there ever liquid water on Mars?
And if we can get to there, then was there liquid water on Mars for a long time? And if we can get there, then were there organics on Mars? And then are there any indications that there is or was ever life on Mars?
Like it was like, we are going to no longer make this argument inconclusive.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And this was the follow the water plan. And so in 2003, we had a new orbiter arrive that started delivering high res images. And we started getting neutron measurements indicative of frozen water.
And what was really interesting was the 2003 Lunar and Planetary Sciences Conference, the headliners were all alien processes, it's wind. And at the end of the session, which is usually when people's brains are dead and they're no longer taking notes, was when you'd hear the, but Fluvial explains this better. Let me count the ways.
And then a couple of years later, we finally had Spirit and Opportunity get to the surface. And as Spirit and Opportunity climbed around, looking at the landscape, we were finding things like these cracked mud landscapes that I listened to the words I just used to describe it, cracked mud.
Fraser Cain:
Cracked mud, yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And suddenly, the language that was headlining changed to water processes.
Fraser Cain:
And so you're still sort of living in this, this seems to indicate cracked mud, this appears to indicate water, but then you're seeing things like the famous blueberries, concretions. So you talked about cracked mud. Yeah.
And that was just one. I mean, there were a lot of smoking gun evidence. And I think one of the ones that was most exciting people are probably very familiar with were these spherules or these Martian blueberries.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So these were actually discovered by the Opportunity rover. Again, part of that Spirit and Opportunity pair of rovers. And these were the kind of small minerals that we really only expect to be formed in water.
And it got people thinking, okay, so how do we need to rewrite the history of Mars to make sense of this? And the revolution started there. And Spirit and Opportunity had a lot of really good equipment.
They had their stereoscopic vision, they had arms, they could drill a bit. They had some spectral capacity, but they didn't have that dig deep and they didn't have the power necessary.
Fraser Cain:
All right. So Spirit Opportunity said, okay, yes, there appear to be geological traces that water was acting here on the surface of Mars. But it was you could have had a deluge and then it was over one rain four billion years ago and then it was over and then the world was dry forevermore.
And that is not conducive to life. So NASA said, okay, let's build up the picture. How long was water present on the surface of Mars?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And this is where we saw a trio of missions that started with Mars Phoenix, which was launched in 2007, landed in 2008. And its sole raison d'etre was to identify water. Flat out, is there water ice?
It went to a polar region. It had a scoop. It had an amazing social media campaign and it landed on the surface.
It went scrapey scrapey. It revealed white stuff and the white stuff sublimated exactly the way water ice should sublimate. There it was.
Fraser Cain:
Right. And you look at Mars in a telescope, you see the polar ice caps like there is water ice. But it is hard as a rock ice at the poles.
Question is, is it mixing with the regolith at more southern latitudes?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It was 68 degrees north.
Fraser Cain:
Right. So you're seeing that water ice is blended in to the regolith just below the surface in the one spot that Phoenix landed. And so it must be in other places as well.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And this was where we also saw discussions start to arise about the dark stripes that were getting seen. Is that water? Is there brine beneath the surface?
So all of that was coming out. And this led to funding of Curiosity rover and InSight lander. InSight went with a seismograph looking to see if Mars was still geologically active.
It went with equipment to drill that failed spectacularly and was the most amazing we're going to problem solve this ever. InSight is amazing. And then Curiosity was sent with a radiothermal generator, which is a lump of nuclear materials that as it decays, generates heat, generates power.
So with its radiothermal generator, it had more power to be able to do more science. And it also carried with it a sample analysis ability that we had never had before. So the sample analysis at Mars SAM, located in Curiosity's belly, had the ability to take samples and twice, which is not a lot, but it had to carry chemicals with it to drop on the samples it scooped up.
So the samples that it scooped up, the chemical it dropped on allowed it to break apart organics to see what are these complex molecules made of. The first paper to come from this just came out. They did a sample at Mary Anning.
This is the name of the rock. It's named after the woman in Dover that the seashells, seashells, seashells. Yeah.
That tongue twister that I am incapable of saying is actually because of her. She collected fossils and sold them to take care of her family.
Fraser Cain:
She sold seashells by the seashore.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And she was also like the first citizen science, but also became a leading paleontologist. Awesome story. Go read it.
They named this rock after her. That's awesome. And they found 20 organics that had never previously been seen on Mars in the broken up much bigger molecules.
And so this is one of the amazing wet chemistry labs that they're able to do with Curiosity. And Curiosity's early successes led to the launch of Perseverance rover, which is in Jezero crater. So Gale crater is clearly a former lake.
It has Mount Sharp, which is the central peak of the crater. It has been climbing Mount Sharp, looking at organics at different places as it goes. Jezero crater is another previously filled with water crater, but its wall collapsed, creating this amazing river delta.
And while crossing the river, it came across, it's called Sapphire Canyon where this river about Perseverance. So Percy over in Jezero crater had been going through Sapphire Canyon where this river used to flow and came across what they've named the Bright Angel Formation. And this was about a year ago.
And with all the capabilities that this little rover has, they poked and prodded this rock and the organics they're finding are completely consistent with a biosignature. Now they can't say for certain that there was life on Mars. They don't have the capacity.
Percy did its best. It could only get us so far. We need to do a sample return.
We have canceled our sample return. We hate everything right now.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. All right. So just to sort of recap the story so far, right?
The purpose of Curiosity was to say, was there water acting on the surface of Mars for a long period of time? And in the crater that it landed in, climbing the flanks of Mount Sharp, it found ample evidence that this place was not only wet once, but it was wet for a long time that the rains fell, the crater filled, that this was a lake. Yeah.
And that water was doing water stuff for a very long time. Curiosity kind of nailed that. So then you move on to that next step and you say, okay, then were the conditions habitable for life for a long period of time?
And this was the purpose of Perseverance. And so in addition to it confirming that Jezero crater had water acting on it for long periods of time, it also found that the conditions were... The stuff of life.
It found the stuff of life, that the conditions were reasonable, that if we dropped Earth life down, it would stand a good chance of surviving in this environment. And then, as you said, found some really exciting, and this is fairly fresh stuff. I mean, we're talking within the last year here from an exploration mission that has been in this new phase since Spirit and Opportunity.
I mean, we are 20 years into Let's Find Life on Mars V2. And we are now getting to the point where there is a rock. There are chemicals in that rock, which we'll talk about in a little more detail here, that the scientists have said, we've tried to explain it in every non-life way that we can.
And we have come out, we've run out of ideas. Someone, please explain this rock.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Right.
Fraser Cain:
Now, obviously, other astrobiologists are saying, hold my beer.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Right? I got plenty of explanations.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
But that's the thing is they said, hold my beer. And they said, give me my beer back. I got nothing.
Fraser Cain:
Hold my beer. No, I'm getting my beer back. Okay, one more time.
No, wait. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think you're exactly right, which is that we are now, we have gone as far as...
I mean, obviously, we can get farther. I mean, if we saw a fossil, right? If we saw a stromatolite, if we saw something really exciting.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
But they've seen things that look exactly like stromatolites.
Fraser Cain:
I know, I know, I know, I know. But if we did see a Mars bunny run by, then that would be more evidence, right? But now we need that sample returned because there is only so much lab equipment you can pile into these rovers.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
We need to bring these things home.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And Rosalind Franklin just doesn't have it. It's... Rosalind Franklin rover is several-year-old technology because this poor rover got cursed by the Russian-Ukrainian war and losing its launch vehicle and a bunch of other stuff.
The US has canceled all NASA-funded missions to Mars in lieu of commercial missions to the moon. And we have these samples scattered all over Mars that just need someone...
Fraser Cain:
No, not sampled. In Perseverance's sample collection...
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So it's left caches as it goes.
Fraser Cain:
It has done both.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
So it has taken samples, put them inside its special sample collection apparatus, and then it has taken backups and dropped them on the landscape behind it. And so you could either meet up with Perseverance, hand over the samples, put them on your return vehicle, bring them home to Earth, or you could chase down the pathway that Perseverance has traveled and pick up samples that are lying there on the surface of Mars. Both are options.
Yeah. And that you get 20 or whatever of the finest, most interesting samples that the scientists on Earth were able to direct Perseverance towards into the hands of the biggest labs on Earth, you are going to make some magic.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
But this is not... We're not going to trauma dump. This is not a grieving session here where we are just going to whine about a lack of a Mars sample return mission.
We want to...
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Celebrate what's been discovered.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, we want to bring you right up to speed with what is the cutting edge of the search for the story of life on Mars.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And it's really amazing. And the details are still coming out. It takes time to analyze results.
We're going to continue to see new results about Bright Angel Rock. I'm having to be so careful during this episode because I read a paper that is not yet published that I'm working on putting together press stuff for. And it's so cool, people.
And so here we have a river delta that has essentially been fossilized in place. And there's so much other cool stuff on Mars. There was work done a few years ago where by looking at how the landscape was altered in response to water, they were able to identify where tsunamis have historically taken place.
So you can imagine one of these crater lakes that gets thwomped by either a landslide or an incoming meteor, both. And as a result, a tsunami moved across the crater lake. And there's some evidence, this is still being discussed, how long it would have lasted, that the reason that one side of Mars is at a radically different altitude than the other is there used to be an ocean.
And so what we're seeing is the ocean floor and the continental landmasses, sands, ocean. I just love that idea. Kevin Gill has amazing graphics related to that.
We used one of them for the slide cover for this video. Go look at Kevin Gill's work. It's science-based.
Fraser Cain:
And this is like a multi-country exploration. So we got a really interesting discovery from the Chinese rover, Tianwen, which found, it was able to map the ancient shoreline. They've targeted the landing site for Tianwen to be at what was thought to be the ancient shoreline.
And it was able to map out and see that, yes, indeed, this was the place where water was probably lapping at the side of an ancient sea for a very long period of time. Very exciting. So again, the evidence is building.
Now, the Chinese are going to be sending a sample return mission. Tianwen 3. And yeah, and it's going 28?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It launches in 28. It lands in 2031. And they're not going to have a multi-year rover ahead of it collecting samples, but they are going to carefully target where it lands.
It's too early to know where it will land at this point.
Fraser Cain:
Grab something interesting nearby, put it on a rocket, send it home. So we will, by the middle of next decade, well, early next decade, get our hands on a fresh piece of Mars, which is pretty exciting. Not as good as the best samples Perseverance could find, but it is still a good first step towards getting some samples from Mars.
So do you think, like, are we now in the endgame of the V2 search for life on Mars?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I don't know if we're endgame yet, just because time scales are so wibbly wobbly. I mean, that's the thing is our exploration of Mars is limited by the technology we've been able to land, which is where Percy did the best it could and said, I think biosignatures, but we can't prove it without a full laboratory of equipment that has a whole lot more power than that little robot has. The helicopters we're planning to send aren't going to be able to do chemistry.
Fraser Cain:
Right. The skyfall.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. And so the endgame question is, when are we going to bring back the right samples to incontrovertibly say, yes.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. And I think, like, I'm sure people who are listening to this right now, their thought is, well, aren't humans going to go to Mars? And so can't they do this in the same way that humans went to the moon and the tech stack for sending humans to Mars and bringing them safely home to Earth is the same thing, but vastly more complicated than sending a robot, picking up a bunch of samples and bringing them back home to Earth.
The robots are hardier. They can handle a lot more. So if you can't do the first thing, then you can't do the second thing.
Right. And your other option is we'll send the humans and then send good lab equipment. But again, good lab, like we're talking devices that are the size of a small building.
Right. You cannot take one of those and put them on the surface of Mars. You really want to bring that stuff back home to Earth.
And so I think you're going to see that gate be, can we get good samples back from Mars that allow the scientists to conclusively search? And I think a great analogy of this is what's happening with the samples of Ryugu and...
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And Bennu.
Fraser Cain:
Bennu.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
And we're seeing these just little whiffs of asteroids... Amazing science. ...turning into some of the most incredible discoveries that science has made about our understanding of the history of the solar system. I mean, they are finding amino acids. They are finding ratios of water to deuterium. Yeah.
They are putting together the history of the solar system in a way that you just have never been able to do with the meteorites that the solar system has deigned to drop on our planet up until this point. So yeah. Endgame is sample return.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I'm hoping that we can do fossil hunting while we're both still alive. That is my dream, is fossil hunting on Mars.
Fraser Cain:
Fossil hunting on Mars. Yeah. Walking around, chipping open a rock, looking inside.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I mean, it can be a robot. It can be a super powerful robot.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. But why not...
I like to go with a little hammer and chip away at rocks and look for fossils inside. So let's let an astronaut do that too. That might be a good use of astronauts.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It's true. It's something that I've always said I hope to be a little lady fossil hunting on Mars. I think I'm just a little bit scarred by the double boom of Starship's booster and Blue Origin's New Glenn.
So last week was a really bad day. And currently we have Starship, New Glenn, and Vulcan all grounded.
Fraser Cain:
Yes. Yeah. We are not go for launch.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
We are not go for launch.
Fraser Cain:
Right. All right. Well, Pamela, that was awesome.
Thank you.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It was my pleasure. And thank you to all our patrons. Some of you have realized you can get me to say truly ridiculous things by having truly ridiculous usernames.
To those of you who make me laugh, I salute you. To those of you whose names I'm about to mispronounce, I'm just really sorry. This week, we would like to thank Adam Anise Brown, Alexis, Andy Moore, Astro Bob, Bart Flaherty, Benjamin Mueller, Bresnik, Bruce Amazine, Christian Bergholt, Cooper, David Fines, David Green, Dr. Whoa, Ed, Evil Melky, Frank Stewart, Jeff McDonald, Gordon Duis, Hal McKinney, Jacob Huell, Jason Kwong, Jeremy Quarrel, Joanne Mulvey, John Drake, Jonathan H. Staver, Justin Proctor, Katie B., Kim Barron, Lab Rat Matt, Les Howard, Mark, Mark Thompson, Matthew Horstman, Michael Purcell, Mike Dog, Nate Detweiler, Papa Hot Dog, Paul L. Hayden, Philip Walker, Rhythm Chameleon, Robby the Dog with the Dot, Ruben McCarthy, Sage Sinfen, Scone, Sean Matz, Seggy Kemmler, Taz Talley, Tim Garrish, Van Ruckman, and William Andrews. Thank you all so very much.
Fraser Cain:
All right, thanks, everyone, and we will see you next week.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Bye-bye.
Live Showshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwCk5uldz4g
This is the final episode of our series on sci-fi universes. And this week we will tackle “The Expanse”. Now we’ve got fusion drives, Proto-matter, g-forces! Listen up, belta lawda! Let's look at the science of our own possible (with a side of aliens) future.
Show Notes* Science and physics of The Expanse * Fraser’s favorite sci-fi series * Strong recommendation for the show and books * Epstein Drive and fusion propulsion * Artificial gravity through acceleration * Metallic hydrogen and advanced spacecraft technology * Newtonian space combat and high-G effects * Ring gates and interstellar travel * Realistic human adaptation to life in space * Asteroids as weapons of mass destruction * Earth, Mars, and Belter politics * Belter culture and low-gravity living * The protomolecule and precursor civilizations * Themes of humanity’s future in space * Future discussions: Battlestar Galactica and Dungeon Crawler Carl * Upcoming episodes: Oceans and Organics on Mars, Big Rockets and the Moon Race, and summer reading recommendations.
TranscriptFraser Cain:
AstronomyCast Episode 795 The Science of the Expanse. Welcome to AstronomyCast, our weekly facts-based journey through the Cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I'm Fraser Cain, I'm the publisher of Universe Today.
With me, as always, is Dr. Pamela Gay, a senior scientist for the Planetary Science Institute, and the director of Cosmoguest. Hey Pamela, how you doing?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I am experiencing sunlight streaming radically into my studio in a way I don't get to see on Mondays because I've usually fled at this point of the day.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Yeah, we're usually done recording, but here we are later on in the afternoon and you're getting that afternoon sunlight coming through. It's true.
Feels good.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
This is the final episode of our series on sci-fi universes, and this week we will tackle the Expanse. Now, we've got fusion drives, protomatter, and G-forces. Listen up, Beltalota.
All right, now last week I said that Stargate was objectively the best sci-fi series ever done. I was wrong. I was wrong.
I take it back. The Expanse. The Expanse is objectively, without question, the best sci-fi television series ever made.
So say we all.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Okay. And where does Babylon 5 go?
Fraser Cain:
Oh, we're not going to do the Science of Babylon 5, are we?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
We are not. We absolutely are not. No.
Fraser Cain:
And we're not going to do Battlestar Galactica.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And I did hear you say, so say we all is a fabulous phrase, by the way. That one just needs incorporated into life more often.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, no, I won't do a Science of Battlestar Galactica, because then I'll just go off in rage. But I'm going to re-watch it. Once we finish Stargate.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Just don't watch the last season.
Fraser Cain:
I won't watch the last season, yeah. It's too bad that they never were able to finish Battlestar Galactica.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Right, exactly.
Fraser Cain:
It would have been much better if they'd had a final season to that show, but they never did. Anyway, we're not talking about Battlestar Galactica. We're talking about The Expanse.
So The Expanse is so good.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It really is. Now, reading the books also, just those of you who are like, nah, get through the first third of the first book. And it's also the first third of the first TV season.
It starts slow because this is a space opera, people. And there are a lot of characters to introduce. There are a lot of concepts to introduce.
And oh my goodness, the journey you you will be taken on. Yes, you just have to, you know, a roller coaster, the part where you're going up and it's going chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk, and you're just like, why? Why did I wait in line five hours to go chomp, chomp, chomp, chomp, chomp?
Yeah, it's it's going to be worth it. It's going to be worth it.
Fraser Cain:
Yes.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And this is not a 30 second ride. Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
And the TV show, like, what is it? Six seasons? It is just it is phenomenal.
Yeah. Such a good show. And what's nice is in the previous episodes, we've talked about the science of things, but a lot of it's just hand waving nonsense.
In this, we've only got a couple of hand wavy things and the rest is just real science taken to the extremes. And that part makes it just beautiful. So, um, so we, I guess let's start with as, as we have been, let's start with transportation.
Um, and let's start with, let's start with the terrible, so the terribly named Epstein Drive.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
What an unfortunate name. Oh, if they only didn't know him.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
But the Rosanante.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about Epstein Drives.
What is it?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I don't remember.
Fraser Cain:
Okay. It's a direct fusion drive.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Thank you.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. So this is, this is a real kind of system.
And you know, we talk about this idea of like having fusion energy, fusion plants, and you've got either the, you know, the giant tokamak that's being built in, in Europe right now. And, you know, there's, uh, there are the laser ignition facilities that are happening in the U S but there is another style of fusion that if, if you're willing to sort of walk the fine line between a thermonuclear weapon, because like we know how to do nuclear fusion.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
We do.
Fraser Cain:
It's a, it's a fusion bomb.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It just tends to be a bit faster than we can control.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. You just don't get the energy out in a nice controlled way. So direct fusion is this sort of halfway point where you are sort of detonating small amounts of fusion and you're using that as a, um, as a propulsion system. And in fact, this is real.
So, uh, NASA has been funding through some of its NIAC grants, uh, direct fusion drives and people are proposing you could make it out to the outer solar system in, uh, a couple of years as opposed to decades.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And NASA has a, a new, uh, raison d'etre, I'm just going to use that word a lot, apparently during this part of the season, um, uh, that is to get a, uh, working fusion generator and we'll see. Fission though.
Fraser Cain:
Fission.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
You're right.
Fraser Cain:
They're planning on building a fission. Yeah. Yeah.
Totally different than fusion.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I need to have a bulletin board that is fission on one side, fusion on the other, and just Right. Cause I'm, I'm going to swap them. Dyslexia is particularly cruel.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Um, the cool thing about the drives in the Expanse is that they give you gravity, that they fire so hard that you could accelerate your spacecraft so that you were then experiencing 1G inside.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And then you flip.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. And then, and then they flip. So they, they go for half the journey at 1G of acceleration, and then they've reached a halfway point and then they flip around and then they go at 1G of deceleration.
And so you experience gravity on both, in both legs of the journey.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And it also leads to interesting spacecraft designs cause there's some metric, uh, not all of them, but many of them.
Fraser Cain:
Some metric. What do you mean?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Symmetric. They, they, they, when you flip them, they look, the, the, the way the spacecraft looks, you look at the silhouette, um, it's, it's, they have to be able to.
Fraser Cain:
Oh, I see. Symmetrical. Okay.
I got it. I got it. I understand what you're saying.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Sorry. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Like the, it's, it's sort of interesting that the, like the spacecraft, the way they're designed, they're kind of like living in a skyscraper.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. You need it so that, that when you rotate it, not all hell breaks loose. Cause if I, weight matters.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Or mass.
Fraser Cain:
I don't know if they talk about what the fuel is, but I think it's, it's a metallic hydrogen, which is a real thing.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
That would make sense. Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. And so in the interior of Jupiter is thought to be hydrogen that is pressed together under thousands of gigapascals of force. And it gets turned into this lattice where you're essentially compressing the hydrogen atoms as close as they'll possibly go.
And they turn into this metallic form that actually generates Jupiter's magnetic field. And this is supposedly been, been generated in the lab, although some people are, are skeptical that it's actually happened, but, and so one possibility is if you can take regular hydrogen, squeeze it into this metallic form, it might remain in that form. It may not require the ongoing pressure to keep it in that form.
And so now you've got this, this form of fuel that you then are feeding into a fusion reactor and you've just got enormous amounts of, of energy storage that can then be used in a way that provides you with a huge amount of thrust.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And if you go to Epcot at Disney World and you ride the ride that theoretically takes you to Mars, that actually just rotates you super, super fast. And you watch the show that they have at the beginning, which stars the one badass woman from Firefly. I'm so bad with proper nouns.
They talk about the rocket you're about to take to go to Mars is powered by, by solid hydrogen, so metallic hydrogen. And if you yell at the TV that that's not a thing that they can do, everyone around you will stare at you. And if you proceed to yell out the number of space toilets, Annie Wilson, I'm looking at you, they will look at you even worse.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Yeah. So, and, and then what, one of the really cool implications for, for this, these high fusion drives is then the combat works in this very Newtonian way where, you know, they're calculating the, the motion of these spacecraft, they're moving, they can make various slight adjustments.
And so you're having to lead the target, you're trying to predict the target if you're going to be shooting it. We'll talk more about weapons in, in a bit, but, but that if you are inside the ship, you are then experiencing these high G maneuvers. The one G is, is purely for comfort.
These things can go much faster. They can do five Gs. They can put you into horrendous G forces while these things are in, in combat.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And they have couches for it.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. They have, they have a fluid that they pump into their veins, right?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. So, so there's two different things that go on. They have the high G couches, which conform and support your body so that like you don't have every bone in your body break.
But then the other issue that you run into is high G situations. And someone just pointed out in the YouTube chat that the high Gs on the Mars ride at Epcot made them very not happy with the world. There's certain medications that don't mix well with high Gs, statins is one of them.
So if you think about it, if there are drugs that make it harder for you to tolerate high Gs, there's also going to be medications that make it easier for you to keep your blood even more hyper oxygenated because it's going to be harder for the blood to get to your brain that prevents strokes from occurring. All the things that are in extreme risk during high G events, um, these drugs are meant to assist with, although they still end up losing their pilots and seasons into the series due to a high G maneuver that they don't make it back from.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. And I've mentioned many times that like one of my favorite sequences in a sci-fi television show is where they're in a ship, this sort of really nimble little ship, but there's a bunch of tools out left out and they're making these high G maneuvers shifting back and forth. And now the tools are flying around inside the spacecraft like bullets because everything else is strapped down.
Like what you're supposed to do is strap everything down inside your ship. But in this, they, they leave some stuff out. I forget that like they were, they were working on something when something got attacked and they didn't have time.
And now it's very dangerous. Yeah. It's all weapons inside their ship, which is just terrifying.
So, so they don't have faster than light drives, but they do have stargates, the ring gates.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
They, they have eventually, um, so, so one spoilers just, just to warn you all, it's been out long enough. If I feel okay, spoilering everything. So one of the core premises is, is they encounter a alien life form in the form of this weird, like fungal kind of stuff that, uh, can infest humans and change their actions.
And while trying to understand what's happening, what's going on, uh, there's a bit of seeing visions because of course there is, um, they end up finding in the outer solar system, um, a, a ring that once set up, when they pass into it, it affects how they're moving. And when they try and pass back out of it, once they get things working again, um, they can use it to jump to other solar systems. It, one of the things that gets encountered during that particular season, and it's even better in the books, is this idea that without gravity, wounds don't work right.
And that, that's a really weird sentence to be stating, but.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. That you, your blood won't clot in zero gravity or something like that.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Not so much that it doesn't clot as it doesn't flow in a reasonable way. So we're used to this idea that when you cry in zero gravity, the tears just bubble up on top of your eyeballs. We got introduced to the idea of blobs of blood flying around in one of the Star Trek movies.
Um, but in Expanse, the idea that our body is designed to have blood drain away from wounds, um, in zero gravity, it just pools where it is and keeps expanding where it is. And you have to suck the blood out, yuck, and seal it up, right. Or spin up gravity.
So one of the ideas is you need gravity in order to heal. And that's a powerful idea.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Really cool. Uh, okay.
So we've talked about the, the transportation. Let's, let's talk about, um, sort of the, well, I guess we'll talk briefly about weapons, which we tend to sort of reach at this point.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Flinging asteroids.
Fraser Cain:
Yes. Well, right. So, so you've got the, the drones, the missiles on the various ships, which are like little mini fusion drives that are, they're tracking their target.
You got point defense kinetic weapons that are able to try to blow those things out of the, out of the sky when they're, when the missiles are coming at you. But as you said, uh, at one point someone uses asteroids as a, uh, as a weapon of mass destruction.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. So this, this is really kind of a remarkably rich set of ideas where they have prisons, especially for the violent that are deep, deep, deep underground and they get harmed in the process of asteroid striking. And of course they still figure out how to escape.
Um, but it just makes for a really amazing set of concepts. But since you know, where the earth is going to be, I feel safe in saying, uh, and days from now and years from now, if you start asteroids, which can be really dark on an intercept path with the planet earth, once they're set flying, they're just going to hit and it's the ultimate terrorist weapon.
Fraser Cain:
Well, it's, it is, but, but there are these essentially stealth weapons that they have a version of mutually assured destruction like we have with nuclear weapons on, on earth. They have these, these mass accelerators that are stealth, they're stealthed pointing at each other's planets.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
And so if you detect the asteroids haven't been sent to your planet, you can fire your accelerators at your opponent and make sure that, that all life is wiped out on their planet as well. And so they've just taken the standard idea of, of nuclear weapons on ballistic trajectories and then just scale that up so that now you've got mutually assured destruction at a solar system level. And the idea is, is terrifying and, and used for great mayhem in the, in the books.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And this is in the true sense of a space opera, something with so many different plots going on because you have the aliens, you have Mars wanting independence, you have the earth system trying to just keep everyone in line, behave children. You have the belters, you have the people in the outer solar system, and you have this idea of who does and doesn't get resources, who does and doesn't get jobs, and it gets into the economics, it gets into the science. And one of the things that does really well is it gets into how does the human body change if it's able to reproduce in space?
And there's an idea encountered where people want to travel to places with gravity to give birth. And that if you've spent too much of your life in space, you can take all the drugs in the world to try and survive. You can exercise all you want, and you're still going to get deathly sick if, if you're trying to be somewhere with gravity.
You're still going to struggle if you're a Martian going to the planet Earth.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. There's the, one of the main characters is a Martian Marine who has trained in heavier gravity for years of her life and still has a rough time going to Earth.
She's super tough in every other situation, but on Earth, she's definitely feeling the increased gravity. And then the belters, the people who live in the asteroid belts, who've been living in one-tenth gravity, they're almost a totally different species of human beings at this point.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And they also do something that I really love, which is because the belters spend so much of their life in spacesuits, spend so much of their life where you can't see hand gestures and facial expressions the same way, they have large gesture sign language that gets incorporated into how they speak. And then there's other things that come into it that we've seen other places like Battlestar Galactica, which we're not going to discuss. There's an episode where Naomi has to jump from one spacecraft to another.
And she pre-breathes to hyperoxygenate her blood. She exhales so that she doesn't explode. That's always a problem.
She has the bursting of the blood vessels, the massive bruising. All of this is legit and it's just kudos to them. They did an amazing job.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people always wonder what would happen if you went outside without your spacesuit.
Watch The Expanse. They cover it.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. Naomi goes through some stuff.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Totally. All right. So let's talk about the part that is like the most science fiction, which is the protomolecule and the weird biology of this.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So protomolecule, they don't really talk about is this a virus? Is this a, what is it? Is it a parasite?
How does it communicate? So they are oblivious to all these details, which is part of what allows them to do awesome sauce with it. Yeah.
The idea is once you're exposed to this, it starts taking over your body, repurposing it. It changes your physical structure. You get really gross, really, really gross, kind of turn into a lump, begin to merge with everything around you.
So it's really gross. I'm just going to repeat that a few more times. Yeah, really gross.
But the protomolecule also allows communications between different life forms. And it's this idea that we had from the last episode with Stargate of the parasites can make you do stuff. And so the protomolecules are trying to essentially take over humanity.
They end up on Ganymede. One thing that you see across the Expanse universe is this idea that they have spun things up enough that the inside walls are like you're walking on the bottom of the surface of Ganymede. There have actually been some fast rotating asteroids recently announced from the Vera Rubin Observatory.
These things do exist. They are actually rotating without falling apart fast enough to have nearly lunar gravity, which is wild to think about. So they get that idea of how to get artificial gravity correct.
But like they lose Ganymede to the protomolecule because it takes over the life forms on board it. And they also end up having to give a couple of the characters extreme radiation poisoning. They talk about the consequences of that throughout the series.
It's a show where what you see in season one crops up years later.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. That essentially the protomolecule, and we don't want to spoil it too deeply, especially because they haven't finished the books yet.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah, they have.
Fraser Cain:
No, no, they haven't finished, sorry, they haven't finished turning the books into shows yet.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Okay. So there's going to be years before they can do the last book.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. There's apparently going to be like a movie to wrap it up or something like that. I don't know if they're going to do more seasons.
It's bananas to me that they didn't just keep going. How could they not just keep going?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Well, there was a gap in time between those books of like 20 years. The human beings needed to age.
Fraser Cain:
I guess so, or they need new actors. But yeah, but the gist being that it's this, I mean, there's a lot of flavors and ideas that we've talked about quite a lot in the show about panspermia, directed panspermia, right? Like what if you wanted to clear out a solar system, get it prepared for you to move in and take over?
I've classically always said that the best thing to do is send the inhabitants a bad idea.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Right? You send a message like contact that says, build an enormous machine and people can't help themselves. They'll build the enormous machine.
It's true. And then the machine destroys your civilization. And then you didn't have to send a weapon, you have to send anything.
So the protomolecule is kind of like this idea that you're clearing the ground, you are resetting a site so that you can now build what you need in that solar system. And that there's this other sort of precursor race, similar to the ancient, similar to the precursors in Star Trek. Like this theme comes up quite a bit.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
They're finding relics on the solar systems they're able to get to, and the relics are weird and scary and- Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
And point to some precursor civilization that had plans for the galaxy.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. And is not your friend.
Like, you're always hoping, like, come on, there's gotta be a good reason. The protomolecule can't be all bad, right? No, it's all bad.
So it's a really interesting concept, which is, when you sort of deal with the more philosophical ideas of this show, what happens when you are a incredibly powerful race, you are transcending dimensions, you are spreading out across everywhere you can reach. How do you make this job as easy as possible for yourself? Both to get around, both to not have to have rivals to deal with.
It's a great concept. And just the levels that this goes as you climb up, because finding the ring gates gives humanity access to the galaxy, but also then puts you closer and closer into contact with the other things that are out there.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Well, and it also just gets into all of the issues of humans being humans and doing stupid things. And what what do you do for love? What do you do for social justice?
What do you do for power and how the rich are able to live completely different lifestyles than the poor? So it has the science dimensions. It has the human dimensions.
It has characters that have so many layers to them that you think they're just like a big, dumb thug. And then you realize this is someone who's just trying to figure out how to human when they had no example as a child. Yeah.
Yeah. So, yeah.
Fraser Cain:
And, you know, man, I mean, it just it just goes on. There's the Mormons, I think, build interstellar spacecraft because they're planning on going to another star system, which gets stolen from them. Yeah, there's there's just so many bits and pieces, large and small in this in this show.
And and I loved every part of it.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Read the books, too, people. Read the books.
Fraser Cain:
So I will admit I have not read the book. They're so good.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I read the books first.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, my wife has, but I haven't.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And and like I was like, I can't watch this TV show because I love these books too much. And then I didn't I didn't have I didn't have a regret. So, yeah, well, the first few episodes of the first season.
But other than that, yeah, yeah, yeah. Get through this first few episodes and then.
Fraser Cain:
No, it was gripping from moment one. But OK, fine. Yeah.
Yeah. Cool. Well, I hope people enjoyed this this four part series.
And I did. We can. Yeah, me too.
Come on. We get to talk about science fiction here. So let us know if you want us to continue.
You know, there are a bunch of other shared universes that we could talk about. Dungeon Crawler, Carl, because there's a ton of science in that. But, you know, you've both got an interstellar civilization.
We could talk about Battlestar Galactica because there is a lot of stuff in Battlestar Galactica.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So currently we are going to take the Monday of Memorial Day weekend off.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I currently have slated for June. Oceans and Organics on Mars. Big Rockets, Moon Race.
And then a recommended summer reading. We can turn all of those into TV shows. Sure.
If we need to. Just let us know what you want.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Let us know if that's what you want or is it like or some portion of the audience is going to be like, oh, I don't want to do this. So let us know.
Yeah, I mean, we could definitely talk about Babylon 5.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. Dungeon Crawler, Carl has a new book coming out.
Fraser Cain:
I know. Two days.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Three days.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to be I'm going to be probably listening to it while I'm in Japan.
So.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So many Kickstarters.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I have spent so much money on Kickstarter.
Fraser Cain:
All right. Thanks, Bubba.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Thank you. And thank you to everyone out there. Some of you have figured out you can get me to say truly ridiculous things by having truly ridiculous usernames.
To those of you who make me laugh, I salute you. To those of you whose names I'm about to mispronounce, I'm just really sorry. This week, we would like to thank Alan Gross, Andrew Allen, Antosaur, Astro Sets, Bebop, Apocalypse, Bob Zatzky, Brian Bede, Burry Gowan, Claudia Mastroianni, Dale Alexander, David, David Rustiera, John Mundus, Elliot Walker, Fairchild, Just as it sounds, Frodo Tannenbaum, Gerhard Schweitzer, Greg Davis, Hannah Tankery, James Signorovich, John Baptiste Lamartine, Jim McGeehan, John Holstein, John Herman, Jonathan Poe, Justin S., Katie and Ulyssa, Kimberly Reek, Larry Zotz, Lou Zeeland, Mark Share, Masa Herleu, Matthias Hayden, Michael Wichman, Mike Huzzy, Nick Boyd, Patricia Hope, Paul Lowell, Rajiv Akari, Richard Drumm, Robert Cordova, Ryan Amari, Sam Brooks and his mom, Scott Bieber, Semyon Torfason, Steve Rutley, TC Starboy, Travis C.
Porco, Rutley, and wiped only three times because I like the itch. Thank you all so very much.
Fraser Cain:
Thanks, everyone. And we will see you when we're back. I think we're off one day, one week, right?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah, we're off one week for Memorial Day.
Fraser Cain:
Okay, we'll see you then.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Okay. Bye, everyone.
Live Shows
We continue our ad-hoc miniseries through sci-fi franchises. This week we’ll talk about Stargate, worm holes, mind parasites and self-replicating bots. There’s a lot to talk about!
Show Notes* Stargates, wormholes, and hyperspace travel * Travel between galaxies including Pegasus Galaxy and Atlantis * Wormhole stability and Einstein-Rosen bridges * Faster-than-light travel and teleportation rings * Naquadah and unstable Quadria as power sources * Superheavy elements and island of stability discussion * Matter-antimatter energy concepts * Energy weapons, plasma, and shield technology * Human migration across the galaxy * Ancient alien civilizations and ascension * Goa’uld parasites and Tok’ra coexistence * Real-world parasite comparisons like cordyceps * Asgard cloning and genetic degradation * Replicators as self-replicating machines * Praise for Stargate Universe * Stargate compared to the Isekai genre * Appreciation for Stargate’s humor and relatable characters * Humanity’s technological rise across the series
TranscriptFraser Cain:
Astronomy Cast, Episode 794, The Science of Stargate. Welcome to Astronomy Cast, our weekly facts-based journey through the Cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I'm Fraser Cain, I'm the publisher of Universe Today.
With me, as always, is Dr. Pamela Gay, a senior scientist for the Planetary Science Institute and the director of CosmoQuest. Hey Pamela, how are you doing?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I am particularly well, because I've been brought a 44-ounce cranberry slushie, so I'm going to be getting progressively more sugar high throughout the piece.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, so you won't hear all of the breaks that we take as Pamela goes to the bathroom, but just assume they will have happened. 44 ounces, I don't even know what that is in milliliters, that's a lot. We continue our ad-hoc mini-series through sci-fi franchises.
This week, we'll talk about Stargate, wormholes, mind parasites, and self-replicating bots. There's a lot to talk about. Alright, Stargate.
Now this is objectively the best sci-fi series. So I just, you know, I need to put my, and I'm not just saying it's my favorite, I'm saying that it's objectively the best, that in a court of law, it would stand up, people would make their case, and in the end, Stargate would win. I brook no argument from anyone, that is just the truth, the reality, this is the universe that we live in.
The Stargate universe. Obviously, you know, people will give me grief to that, they'll send emails, send your emails to Pamela at, no, Starstrider, no. So well, so let's just start with the big one, with the Stargate universe, and that of course is the Stargates themselves.
What is the science of what they're doing in Stargate?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So in theory, there are a series of rings that if you put in the correct number of locked-in runes, will allow you to travel to a matching gate in our galaxy, or, or... Into another galaxy. If you figure out how to enter even more runes, you can travel, with added energy, to another universe, thus, Atlantis.
Fraser Cain:
Other galaxy.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Other galaxy, that's what I meant to say.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, they're not another universe, they're another galaxy, I think they're in Andromeda? So we're re-watching Stargate right now, my wife and I, and so we're into season seven right now, so we're pretty deep in the re-watch. And again, I'm like, I'm really enjoying going back and re-watching shows that I know that I love, but it's been so long that I actually don't remember the details.
It is literally a new show to me. Every episode, I'm like, I don't remember this, I don't remember that, I don't remember this episode. We just watched Dark City, and that I mostly remembered, the movie, and we just watched the Iron Giant, and I mostly remember that movie, but with the Stargate episodes, each one, like I know the high-level stuff, who the people are, who the factions are, who some of the main characters are, but the episodes, I am as shocked and surprised when the twist is revealed as I was when I first watched the show, which is such a wonderful feeling. It is. When you realize that you can now just go back and re-watch your entire media library, everything you've ever loved is all there waiting for you to be watched again.
Okay, so what is the physics principle that is connecting these Stargates together?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So the idea is that you can, and this breaks the physics, you can connect two points together using a wormhole through basically an extra dimension.
Fraser Cain:
Right, the Einstein-Rosen bridge.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Now, the problem is that mathematically, those suckers become super unstable the moment any mass enters them, which makes it really hard to travel from one point to another through them. So yeah, that's slightly problematic. Right.
Fraser Cain:
And we've mentioned this in a previous episode, like a long, long time ago, when you would sort of allow us to talk about this subject. I believe it was nonsense that needs to be debunked. But in that Einstein-Rosen, they came up with the math for how this would work, but the downsides are, as you said, that if any actual matter or energy is in there, then the thing immediately collapses.
But we've seen the classic examples in interstellar and all that, where you take a piece of paper, you draw the two locations, and then you fold it over and you punch right through, boom, these places are connected. And so theoretically, there's some factory, some wormhole factory that the ancients are building and then they're putting them on spaceships, and then they're taking these wormholes to various locations around the galaxy. And so then you can activate them in the wormhole network and be able to communicate.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
But it's even wilder than that, because each point is connected to all the other coordinates. So it feels much more like they're able to generate wormholes that go from one point to the other.
Fraser Cain:
Right. As opposed to having the kind of wormholes. This is a really cool idea, that if you could make a stable wormhole, you could take one half of the wormhole, put it on a spacecraft, go close to the speed of light, and you have made a time machine.
Because the different sides of the wormhole have experienced different amounts of time. And so you will go through one at the local time, and then you will pop out of the other at the local time for the wormhole. And so theoretically, you can have a time machine.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
But the light hasn't made it between those two places.
Fraser Cain:
Right. The light hasn't. You're being transmitted instantly through these, through a distortion in space-time.
So the idea was around, of course, these are in Star Trek as well. I mean, we didn't even bring this up in, think about Deep Space Nine. I'm sure they're in Star Wars.
I mean, that's kind of what the hyperlanes are.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So in the last season of Ahsoka, they have the ability with extra power to get.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Spacewhales go with the space whales to another galaxy.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Right. And this is where I will die on the hill. The night sisters are actually Bene Gesserit.
But yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Did you just cross the streams? I did.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I did. Yeah, but.
Fraser Cain:
As opposed to them just stealing a cool idea.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I'm just going to cross the streams.
Fraser Cain:
Yep.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
OK. OK.
Fraser Cain:
So so then if you don't have a wormhole, if you don't have a Stargate and a DHD, a dial home device at the planet that you're attempting to reach, you can use a spacecraft.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And this this is a two part system where you have the Stargate. Then you have the control thing that causes the different ringy bits to move and lock in the different runes. Now, the wormhole is generated by the ring thing.
And so you can replace the control system. So the control system is just like your remote, basically. Yeah.
So so just to be clear, I don't know why I'm being so pragmatic. True. And and yes, they do have in the Stargate universe the ability to move through space on spaceships that are also capable of going fast.
And and this is how you get the the spacecraft that land on top of the pyramids, which is really cool CGI in the Stargate movie. But but the aliens in the Stargate universe are just creepy.
Fraser Cain:
We'll get we'll get we'll get to the to the life forms in a second. But OK, but the yeah, so so they have faster than light travel as well. And it's their version of hyperspace.
And so you have a hyperspace drive on your spacecraft and that allows you to travel at faster than the speed of light and you generate a hyperspace tunnel in front of you and then you enter that and and go. And there's like one episode where they have where they're about to crash into the earth and realize that they can hyperspace through the earth, which is very cool.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So but it's not infinite speed. So they have the same problem as Star Trek Voyager of if you end up through some fate too far away, you're not getting home.
Fraser Cain:
No, but they they talk about, say, the the the Asgards. Yes. Living outside of the Milky Way.
And then whenever there's a problem, they request the Asgards and the Asgards show up almost instantaneously. So so there is very fast movement, different technology and different civilizations. Yeah, there is very fast move through it.
OK, so then they've got a teleportation system, which are the rings.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yes. And this is one of those things where you have to wonder, is this like a mini wormhole? Is this like it's not clear how those work.
But again, they like to have things work through rings and those are vertical rings versus they go up and down versus standing. Right.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. So you go into this this room.
It's very much like the transporter of Star Trek that you go into this room, you stand in the middle, these rings pop up, then the rings pop up in the destination. And there you are. Yeah. And you need the rings to move between locations, which is kind of cool. So you don't just randomly transport yourself to some random location. You have to go to a place where.
So you're exactly right that it feels like it's like a mini version of a of a wormhole, however, that works. All right. So let's talk about some of the the technologies that are involved in this.
And I think one of the main things, one of the essentially the main resource that everybody's fighting over in the Stargate universe is Nakuta, which is the equivalent of dilithium. Well, it's not exactly the same as dilithium crystals, but it is it is the same pinch point of a resource that everybody is looking for Nakuta.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I have to admit, I never fixated on that and have no memory of anything other than it exists. So you, sir, who are currently rewatching, please continue.
Fraser Cain:
So theoretically, the Nakuta is in a stable island of resources farther up the periodic table of elements. And so this is something we've debunked in the past. But in theory, this is just like another element that you can mine, I guess, in the same way you combine dilithium crystals and that it produces an enormous amount of energy like a fission reactor.
And that that and that that is what is needed to power hyperspace drives, to power the Stargates and so on. And then there is this unstable version of a called the Quadria, which has been found on this one planet. And that is used, but it is is unstable.
And so it has unpredictable results. And that is the power source that the that humans use in their spaceships is the quadrics. They have a source for this stuff.
But a lot of the conflict between the the empires in Stargate are over planets that have Nakuta that they're then trying to mine and subjugate the the people who live there and and so on. They have a lot of other technologies that are kind of related. They have this zero point energy as another kind of reactor, like antimatter reactors, which and they have a lot of stuff that the that the Asgards use.
So they're they're able to be able to power all of these.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So let's back up and unpack some of these ideas. So so backing first up to the island of stability, there is when you look at our periodic table, there's the main chunk at the top that those are fairly stable. Then there's all the stuff down at the bottom.
Those those are not stable. Those.
Fraser Cain:
Americium.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yes. Thank you. Is is very unstable, which has a lot of ironies in twenty twenty six.
And and so as we're going through figuring out how to bombard the cores of atoms with protons or neutrons and get them to move up to heavier and heavier things that don't tend to hang around. There is this idea that you can get back to some place where you've added enough to the core that it's able to hold itself together because of the geometry. Now, so far, we haven't been able to get close enough to prove or disprove this idea.
But the fact that we never find any of this in the universe and supernovae are a thing has a lot of people thinking it doesn't actually exist or we would have found it by now.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Nature has provided a particle accelerator capable of fashioning elements with an enormous number of protons and neutrons, and we have not found them. But that a colliding neutron stars is so much more energetic than anything humanity can possibly offer.
And yet and we know that the Earth has many of the elements that came from colliding neutron stars. And yet we don't find anything beyond the the table of elements as we see it.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Okay. So that was concept one that you just kind of rolled over. Yes.
Zero point. Zero point energy is this idea that our universe hasn't actually like gotten to the lowest allowable energy. So if you think of that model you got for an atom when you were in high school, where electrons can jump up to a variety of different energy levels and then they decay down to lower energies until they get back down to that base energy.
Well, we're up. The idea is that we're not at the base, we're up at like two or maybe higher, and it is collapses to lower energies that perhaps are responsible for the epoch of inflation. It could also like do very violent things to all the rules of physics in our universe as we know it, if we actually undergo a zero point collapse.
So hopefully that's not a thing. But the idea is our universe isn't at the lowest stable energy point and has further can collapse to it.
Fraser Cain:
And then antimatter reactors, I think it's relatively cheap.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah, that's matter, antimatter, they annihilate when mixed correctly.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. So let's talk about the weapons. You know, Teal'c has this energy weapon, the staff weapon, it feels like it's relatively straightforward, you know, shoots a bolt out of the end of the weapon.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It's a bolt of energy. It's just a pulse. It's the same annoyance you get in pretty much every other series of, wait, how are we able to watch something that should be traveling at the speed of light move across the room?
But there we are.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, yeah. Well, maybe it's not moving the speed of light. It's a blob of energized plasma or something.
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I mean, it will have massif it's electricity. So maybe it's a blob of slow moving electrons.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. And then the other weapon that they have is it's called the Zat gun or the Zat Nikta. And it is the it's the little one that kind of pops open and then they it's their it's their version of the phaser.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
And so one hit stuns, two hits kills and three hits disintegrates. Is the is the rules of the universe. And so instead of setting your thing at stun or kill, you can just hit them once with it and they pass out.
But if you hit them twice, then you kill them.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Don't do that. And I don't know what the time frame is, but you can hide the body easily enough.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, I don't know what that. Well, yeah. So if you do need to, then you just vaporize them with a third hit and they just disappear.
So they go through they go through through that. And again, I mean, however, these things work, they are clearly somehow messing with your nervous system, electricity, you know, your nervous system runs on electricity. So there's some kind of squishy biology explanation for how this all comes together.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
But it doesn't leave the same wild scarring that that getting struck by lightning does. So at least there's that positive.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, the question I always have is like, what's the time frame that if you used to hit a person once, like because all the main characters have been hit by these at guns multiple times. So is it just like once in your life?
No, obviously not. Is it once in a day? I it's probably like getting a sunburn.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. I mean, like you can be out in the sun for whatever, half an hour and then you'll start to burn or 10 minutes or whatever is the number. But then how long of a break do you need before you can then go back under the sun for 10 minutes?
Is it the next day? Is it the same day? Do you have to wait an hour?
What is the what is the what is the delay for being out in the indirect sunlight for you to get a burn again?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
The rate at which the energy dissipates, I guess.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So it doesn't depend on if you're surrounded by an insulating material or on something conductive.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So but they're very handy weapons. And then, of course, you have shields both on the spacecraft and personal shields for the for the ghouls, which we're going to get to.
And again, I think we've you know, we kind of covered shields in Star Trek, both Star Trek and probably Star Wars. So, you know, same same thing, some kind of electromagnetic shield that you are putting around yourself that is redirecting harmful energy away from you.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And I have to just put out a congratulations to the folks over in the YouTube chat who can spell the things in the Stargate universe correctly.
Fraser Cain:
This is just confirmation of what I of what I said. All right. So one thing I don't think you were sort of expecting this, but one thing that I really like is that almost all of the entities that they interact with are human beings.
They all speak English, which, you know, is obviously a problem. But they all are transported from Earth. Yes.
To different locations, which is such a it's such a cool idea that all this mythology, that all of these, you know, are the ghouls and that you have this migration across the galaxy because these people have been taken to these worlds and set up essentially as slaves.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And that that idea is in Star Trek. Just to be clear, there was the elder race that it transported human beings and plopped them down in different places.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Right. And that's why Vulcans and Romulans and everybody kind of looks the same.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
No, it's there's actual humans on other worlds that were put there by this race. I've forgotten the name of that. I think it's the same race that holds the.
There's this place that they're absolutely not allowed to fight. It's the glowing light organisms. I think their name begins with the letter O and that's not useful.
Fraser Cain:
In in Stargate, Star Trek, Star Trek, both Star Trek and Stargate, because there's there is a white glowing thing in Stargate. All right.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. So so both of them have that idea that there were ancient humans that were used to seed life on other worlds. This is why in the original Star Trek you end up with the planet that has the Native American population.
But Stargate does it in in a much cooler way where the origin of so many different myths that involve human like gods. So the Egyptian gods, the Viking gods, or I guess Norse is the correct phrase. The Norse gods, the Greek gods, they go through them all like Chinese mythology, Japanese mythology.
Yeah, it's really cool.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, they pull all of this mythology and then each one of these is actually a system lord, one of the the big bad, the gold, which we're going to get to in a second, that are running portions of the galaxy and fighting with each other. And essentially they use the humans as their slave shock troops and put them to work and brainwash them and make them think that these are their gods. But in fact, Earth is the is the heart is the original place because, you know, people always ask me this question.
How how do we know that we're that humans didn't come from another planet? Well, we can trace our ancestors back to the to the very first life form on Earth. We know we evolved on Earth.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I read too much science fiction. Let's talk about the Goulds.
Fraser Cain:
So so the Gula, the word you just said correctly, the Goulds, the Goulds as as General Hammond would call them, the Goulds.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
The the idea is they are a parasitic life form that goes through multiple phases. They are largely aquatic. They go from being in basically the ponds that they're reproduced in pools, whatever, to taking over human hosts where they live in the gut.
And when they're juvenile, they they support their life form, but they don't take over its brain. Now, the problem is these are life forms that are fully capable of joining forces with the human nervous system. And so very much like the Trill in Star Trek, you end up with life forms that are a joining between the parasite and its ego and the human being.
The Trill do not generally go read books, take over and control the human. The Gould, the word you can say, the Gould, that word, yeah, they I their raison d'etre is apparently to take over. Yes.
The the human being and make it their own. And these are life forms that also have extra energy so they can like cause glowing eyes, um, rapid healing. Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. And strength, intelligence, things like that.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So it's one of these things where it's good to live forever, but a whole lot not if you're the host.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Yes. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, the idea of a parasite, I mean, this is this has its place in in science. I mean, we see the cordyceps, which is a kind of fungi that will take an ant, take an ant's brain, have it force it to climb to the top of the tallest plant that it can find and then and then die and extend the fruiting bodies of the cordyceps to then allow, you know, it to be able to replicate itself.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Or in theory, there's a lot of parasites that do things that get the host body consumed or take it to life forces.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Or isn't the one like the one in in cat litter that makes mice be more brave?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
And so easier to get.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And that causes them to get eaten. Yeah. And and so the idea that there are life forms out there capable of taking over hosts by affecting their neurochemistry is a known thing.
There are zombie funguses.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Parasites that will replace a fish's tongue.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
That. Yeah, that's a real thing. People, there is a parasite that eats the tongue and then becomes the tongue and gets a first bite so that it can aid in eating.
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. It's crazy. It's so gross.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It's so awful. Okay. Yeah.
My stomach has literally just gone.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
So the but but it's a great idea that you by having the young gestating inside the bodies of the warriors and priestesses. Yeah. You're you're supplying their immune system.
And so they are completely reliant on this. They cannot escape if they wanted to. They have to you.
They have to use this.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. Once their immune system has changed, there's no going back. So yeah.
So you can replace the parasite inside someone, which happens to Teal'c, of course. But you can't turn them back normal. Now, there is a cast of the word you can say and I can't that.
Right. The Tok'ra.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
The good ones. Right.
Fraser Cain:
The good guys.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
They believe that they can coexist more like the Trill do and shared the body in a mutually supportive way. Yeah. There's lots of really cool stuff that goes on.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, totally. Totally. So and then the other thing is the ancients, which were the people that made the Stargate network.
Yeah. And and sort of one of the things that you you learn is that the ancients left technology strewn around kind of like a roadside picnic. And so then it's up to humanity to sort of go through the Stargate to find these little bits and pieces of ancient technology and then try to use this to defend against the the gold.
And then, you know, in Atlantis, they realize there's a whole ancient city in another galaxy and and and so on. But the the sort of thing that does show up quite a bit is that there are these transcended, oh, I forget what they call them, but essentially have ascended. They write these ascended beings.
And this is something that happens to Daniel Jackson for half the season. Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
When I think the actor wanted to take some time off of the show. And so they replaced him with Cornemic. And then he he came back at the end of the season.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
There's also an interesting Easter egg. It's not an Easter egg. There's an interesting side thing to note where the actor who plays Daniel Jackson starts out looking very much like you would expect a classroom and laboratory archaeologist to look just a little bit like clearly not working out all the time.
And then at one point he comes back super buff and he's like, you know, well, so he went off and he films an action adventure movie. So that's what happened. It's the actor who filmed an action adventure movie and ended up with a completely different physique as a result.
So. Right.
Fraser Cain:
That's fun to watch. And and so the there's one race in this, the Asgard.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Who are the little gray guys. The little gray guys. Yeah.
Which is so great, right, that they are the the perfect gray aliens. They really have been messing with humanity for forever. But they're essentially the protectors of humanity.
But but the science that I find really interesting about them is that they're all clones.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yes. And that's actually also a problem for them.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Right. They suffer this problem that that they're getting this genetic degradation over time because of their reliance on cloning.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. And and it's one of these things where they didn't have to clone. They just like you see in other science fiction stories, somewhere along the line, it was just like, this is a better way to do things.
And the idea of having sex is yicky. And so they're trying to figure out how to change their ways to save their species. And and then there's also the replicants, the replicators.
Yeah, they're kind of like the perfect evildoer. They're like if Minecraft used nano bricks to attack just like they have the ability to use everything around them to convert it into machinery. And and it's wild the way they just like take over everything.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. They're kind of like the Borg.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. But the Borg, I don't consume matter and recycle it into robots the same way.
Fraser Cain:
Right. So they keep them looking people like as opposed to they just consume everything down to the atomic level and put it back together in a form. Yeah.
I really dislike the replicators, the whole storyline, the whole implementation of it. I really every time the replicators are on the show, my wife and I, we just groan and roll our eyes and tough through it because I just I really don't like it. They're they're not an interesting enemy to me.
And and the storylines aren't that aren't that interesting, although this kind of and they knew that the CGI was good, though. Yeah. I don't want to sort of spoil where they go with the storyline, but but in the end, it's actually quite a very emotional, brutal ending to the replicators.
Cool. So there's a lot of other stuff. Life is short.
I made a list beforehand. They've got communication systems. They've got sensors.
But yeah, I think that's all the big.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
They got Jason Momoa.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, right. Jason Momoa, the little baby Jason Momoa early on in Stargate Atlantis and then Stargate Universe. I mean, using a lot of the same technology.
And it's an ancient ship that's moving from star system to star system. They only had two seasons of it. I loved Stargate Universe.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah, I loved it, too.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. It's really too bad.
So I think hopefully, apparently they're working on a new new versions of Stargate. So hopefully we'll see something show up in our lives.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It's it is amazing. And yeah, it also just like the social stuff they get, like the way human beings, human, really, really good.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
In the series.
Fraser Cain:
So yeah, I mean, I think like there is a level of humor and yes, and and people not taking themselves as seriously in Stargate that I just like there's a charm to it. Yes, that they just don't have in Star Wars and Star Trek. Yeah.
And I just don't think that like I've never seen anything in either one of those shows that except for maybe Andor, but the band was grim and dark. Again, it's not right. But I've not seen anything that runs this, I don't know, this light and just feels very, very, very relatable.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
I mean, the thing that I really love about Stargate is how much the pieces of the puzzle come back together later on to form a larger picture that they they find a little piece of technology over here and they find a little piece of technology over there. And then you meet with the three years later, they call on those people because now they're an ally and they can help them out. But they can't help them out in this situation, but they can't help them right now.
And then and now the humans have have figured out this technology. Now they have a ship and now they have control over and now they know how to power the wormholes. And it just you get this technological progression.
That goes on through the 10 seasons of Stargate from zero from zero to humanity is on its way to becoming a Milky Way spanning civilization. And it makes sense in a way that I haven't seen any other show tackle.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
There's an element of Isekai to Stargate because you have the humans suddenly got dropped into this completely new situation where they have to figure out how to level up.
Fraser Cain:
Yes.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And Star Trek and Star Wars don't have that.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And and so I think part of us are part of our heart is there to cheer on.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
The Richard Dean Anderson's character who's like, what is this science? I just have a gun and I want to shoot.
Fraser Cain:
Just tell me how it works.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Right. So I think that bit of Isekai for before that word was even something I knew existed.
Fraser Cain:
It just adds a completely different what's the word?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Isekai is the the kind of Japanese storytelling. Am I mispronouncing it? Where where you get dropped into either you're given a new magical ability.
Fraser Cain:
You're OK. OK, I see. I see.
Yeah. Like like the kind of thing you read in light novels and stuff.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Right. Right.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Lit RPG. Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
There's the lit RPG of the Roomba that gets brought into an alternate universe. Yeah. And become sentient.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Very cool. All right.
So again, best series, sci fi series ever. Watch it. Thanks, everyone.
Thanks, Pamela.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And we are about to record our next episode. They will go out two weeks in a row, though. So if you're listening to the podcast, this is the part where I say thank you for amusing me with your usernames, because there are some amazing ones right now.
And I'm sorry for how I'm about to mispronounce them. Some of you have realized you can get me to say truly ridiculous things by having a truly ridiculous username. To those of you who make me laugh, I salute you.
To those of you whose names I'm about to mispronounce, I'm just really sorry. This week, we would like to thank Abraham Cottrell, Alex Raine, Andrew Stevenson, Arnaud de Groot, Balki, Benjamin Davies, Boogie Nett, Brian Kilby, Cammy Rassian, Conrad Haling, Daniel Schechter, David Gates, Dizastrina, Dwight Ilk, Eric Lee, Flower Guy, Galactic President, Scooper Star McScoopsalot, Gold, Gregory Singleton, J. Alex Anderson, Jarvis Earl, Jeff Wilson, Jim of Everett, John Esseth, John Vays, J.P. Sullivan, Kate Sindretto, Kenneth Ryan, Kinsaia Panflanko, Lee Harbourn, Marco Ierassi, Mark Steven Razanek, Matthew Crampton, Michael Prashada, Michelle Cullen, Olga, Paul Jarman, Peter, Red Bar is watching, R.J. Basque, Ron Thorson, Satche Takaba, Shersom, Sean Marion, Shobhana, Stephen Miller, the Lonely Sandperson, Tushar Nakini, Will Hamilton. Thank you all so very much.
Fraser Cain:
All right, thanks, everyone, and we will see you next week.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Bye bye.
Live Show
Today we continue our mini-series; evaluating the science of various sci-fi franchises. We did Star Wars last week, this week tackle Star Trek. From transporters to warp drives, from phasers to photon torpedos. Let’s tackle what Star Trek gets right and wrong about science. Let's look at the science of our galaxy, some day far in the future.
Show Notes* Warp drives, antimatter, and dilithium crystals * Warp vs impulse engines * Tractor beams and phaser physics * Photon torpedoes and beam weapon challenges * Transporters, quantum teleportation, and Heisenberg Compensators * Faster-than-light communication and quantum entanglement * Shield technology discussion * Privacy concerns from always-listening devices * Star Trek predicting tablets, flip phones, and video calls * Tricorder-inspired medical technology * Hubble Space Telescope imagery influencing Star Trek visuals * Star Trek’s impact on science, technology, and diversity * Nichelle Nichols as a groundbreaking role model
TranscriptFraser Cain:
AstronomyCast, Episode 793 The Science of Star Trek. Welcome to AstronomyCast, our weekly facts-based journey through the cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I'm Fraser Cain, the Publisher of Universe Today.
With me as always is Dr. Pamela Gay, a Senior Scientist for the Planetary Science Institute and the Director of CosmoQuest. Hey Pamela, how are you?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I am dealing with the fact that we appear to have AstronomyCast triggered extreme weather Monday.
Fraser Cain:
Yes.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
There is thunder, there is hail, there is a pocket of red passing overhead while we record.
Fraser Cain:
Right.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
No tornadoes today, though.
Fraser Cain:
Right, but last time we tried to record, you had multiple tornadoes bearing down on you. They were hunting you.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It's true.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. It's true. Yeah.
And I am having unseasonably warm weather here. It's gone. And in the beginning of this episode, I'm going to feel like I'm a little out of breath, because I literally just came in from double digging out my vegetable bed in the grueling heat.
It is crazy. Early May, we can still have freezing nights where I am in Canada in early May. Yeah.
We hit 28 degrees yesterday, Celsius, which I don't know.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
That's like high 80s.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. 2080 in F. 82.
So we hit 82 Fahrenheit. Yeah. Yesterday in Canada in early May.
It's bananas. I think the record for this place here is 25 degrees.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So I think we kind of crushed it anyway, but these are not the records you should be striving for.
Fraser Cain:
No, I know. I know. But the gardening must go on.
And so I go out until I completely overheat. And then I hide away for the rest of the day in the in the air conditioned room that we have. So.
But let's get on with this week's episode. Today we continue our mini series evaluating the science of various sci fi franchises. We did Star Wars last week.
This week we tackle Star Trek from transporters to warp drives from phasers to photon torpedoes. Let's tackle what Star Trek gets right and wrong about science. All right.
Where do you want to start? Do we should we start in the in the same way that we did last into we started in transportation location?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I think we.
Fraser Cain:
That was easy.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. We started with location and then jumped to asteroids, which both series just get so wrong. Yeah, everybody does.
So we're going to go with the the the warp drive is is another. This is tunneling outside of regular space to get past the speed of light. We're just going to accept it and appreciate the fact that they are at least using antimatter channeled through the lithium crystals somehow or or focused with the aid of the lithium crystals.
It's never really explained which which antimatter is the most efficient source of power that we know of. So kudos for that.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. They never really discuss how they're making their antimatter.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
No, it's right. It's mining the lithium crystals is a real problem that comes up on the regular.
Fraser Cain:
But yeah, yeah. The matter is just sort of like. So I mean, dilithium crystals as the as the catalyst for making antimatter.
But the but the reality is that antimatter is is merely a battery that you can take enormous amounts of energy. You can create antimatter and theoretically dilithium crystals will let you do this efficiently as close as possible to perfect equals MC squared. You can just go back and forth from from regular matter or turn energy into antimatter at roughly equivalent of the amount of energy that you kick into it and then you store the antimatter.
But they never talk about how they're going and getting their antimatter. They always just talk about the fact that the dilithium crystals are this and we need more dilithium crystals and that. And I think they literally don't think about the just the way you need to get your hands on antimatter.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I'm sure they think of it, but they very wisely don't discuss it because then we might have things to fault them for.
Fraser Cain:
Yes.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And and this is a show that when they started filming it, there was such a difference in existing technology and understanding of science compared to what we have today that it's really easy to understand why they would choose to make the choices they made.
Fraser Cain:
Mm hmm. So and I mean, I think a lot of people are familiar with Alcubierre drives that, you know, theoretically you can warp spacetime, that in fact, it's not completely crazy that you warp spacetime as a way to get you from your location to some destination just merely requires more energy than the universe and negative energy or negative. Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
There's a lot of things in the Star Trek universe that really require more energy than it's comfortable to think about.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Like core tenant of writing for Star Trek appears to be just ignore energy constraints.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. So warp drives, you know, you can move.
Space can expand faster than the speed of light. So as long as you're not moving through space, you're bending space, then theoretically that is feasible. What about impulse engines?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
They don't really explain those that I've seen either. They just are what you use in solar systems. They don't have the same potential to destroy an atmosphere, although there are examples of warping out of atmospheres.
So in general, if you aren't trying to go massive distances, you use your impulse engines, and you don't want to work out of an atmosphere that's dangerous.
Fraser Cain:
Right. But some kind of ion engine, something more related to the kinds of propulsion systems that we have, and they take you up to the speed of light and, you know, not, not past it.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And they don't require nacelles like warp drives do.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Yeah. Let's talk about tractor beams.
So I so this is cool. So I actually did an interview with somebody about tractor beams, just the most recent interview on my channel at the time of this recording. And the way this works is that you, you know, you take advantage of the reality that, you know, if you charge something with one polarity, then something else will be attracted to that if it's the opposite polarity.
And so what they do is they have an electron gun, they fire electrons at a piece of space debris. This is all theoretic work, but, you know, they've tested in the lab and, and as you are firing your electrons at this target, it is negatively charging the target. And because you are giving up your electrons, it is positively charging you.
So now you and the target are attracted to each other and it starts to drift towards you. And so theoretically, you can imagine some scaled up version of this, where they're able to just throw an enormous amount of electrons at the, at the target, charge it up and, and pull it along. Probably not with the strength of a tractor beam, but, but that is like not totally crazy.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I, I, I love this. Yeah. It continues to be the, do not worry about how much energy might be used probably.
And, and what's cool about tractor beams is this is technology that it doesn't seem to follow the rules of momentum. So you can have someone zipping past and as long as you can grab them, it doesn't cause the ship with the tractor beam to get yoinked forward. You're not going to drag another ship off with the tractor beam.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And this is something in both the Star Trek and Star Wars universe that kind of confuses me that, that it's not like a rope. I, I've owned horses. I own dogs that think they are horses.
And when they take off on that leash, I'm, I'm going to feel a transfer of momentum. And that just doesn't seem to happen with tractor beams. This is, this is apparently the part of the tractor beam I'm going to obsess over.
Fraser Cain:
Right.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. The energy. The, the failure to transition momentum.
Fraser Cain:
Right, right, right. That you're going to.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
That the ship that is getting grabbed onto isn't going to be able to pull all of her kingdom come the ship that is trying to grab a hold of it.
Fraser Cain:
Right, right.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So, so firing your engines while being trapped in a tractor beam isn't going to just move you and, and whatever has locked a tractor beam onto you. Right. But the tractor beam haver can pull something.
So it's one way failure to transfer momentum.
Fraser Cain:
Got it. Okay.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Sorry.
Fraser Cain:
No, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. All right.
So, so let's talk about weapons. Cause I think we sort of transitioned to talking about weapons. So we've got the phaser.
We'll start there. Do you have any idea how a phaser works?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
No.
Fraser Cain:
Okay.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So, all right.
Fraser Cain:
So I looked up a reference. The Trek, is it the Trek-no-pedia?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Oh, Star Wars is the Wikipedia. I'm super familiar with that. I don't know the Star Trek one.
Fraser Cain:
What do they call it? So they fire Nadeon particle beams. So they've, they essentially, they've invented a new particle called the Nadeon.
And so then they, they fire energy again, just doesn't matter where it comes from into this crystalline substance. And then this generates Nadeons, which are then channeled into a coherent beam and they're fired at your target. So you have essentially a particle accelerator in your hand, but not that you are accelerating existing particles.
You are turning raw energy at exactly the right frequency into these Nadeons. And then you are directing those Nadeons out.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
But then how does the stunner work?
Fraser Cain:
Well, the stun setting, who cares? Right? It disrupts the nervous system.
The nice thing about the Nadeons is that if you fire them at a low enough energy level, then they just disrupt the body's nervous system. But if you crank it up higher, then you kill. And if you crank even higher, you disintegrate.
All right. Right. But I love, you know, your description, like you kind of blew my mind maybe 15 years ago when you were explaining how particle accelerators work, that you are taking particles, you are accelerating them in this, you know, environment.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Magnetic fields.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. You're smashing them together. You are concentrating energy and then particles are freezing out of that energy.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yes. And that sounds like that's how these phasers work.
Fraser Cain:
That's how these work is that you are taking energy. Somehow you are accelerating. You were taking the energy and you were concentrating into a small enough area with exactly the right frequency that you are generating this perfect kind of particle.
And then you are throwing that particle at your target and then doing various work to them.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And this is actually something we kind of know how to do. It's just a very imperfect science. Yeah.
Where like when we're trying to create neutrinos of specific masses, we're slamming particles together that have the combined mass energy that has the probability of coming out with these particles. Now, the problem that we run into is there's multiple ways to add up to get that energy, but apparently they have a filter. So we're good.
Fraser Cain:
We're good. Yeah. So photon torpedoes, they're simpler.
They're very simple, which is that they're just matter-antimatter. They're just kaboom. And that I think the science is solid.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. Yeah. That completely works.
The trick is getting something to be sufficiently collimated over a great enough distance. And that I believe is solvable. So I'm good with those.
Fraser Cain:
What do you mean by collimated? With photon torpedoes, you're firing this shell with matter-antimatter inside of it, and then it just detonates when it hits its target.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
They're lit up. So they're not firing a packet of light that's created. They're actually firing the matter-antimatter?
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah, they have a shell. He clearly knows Star Trek better than I do. I was prepared to talk about the computer systems.
Transporters, and you know so much more.
Fraser Cain:
I have the Trek-nology book.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And it's Memory Alpha, according to the chat, is the site that you go to get all the information.
Fraser Cain:
So it's written by Ethan Siegel.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Okay, that makes sense.
Fraser Cain:
He wrote the Trek-nology book, which goes into all of the technology of Star Trek. So yeah, yeah. I like the way Paul- Boom, boom, and pill form.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah, I was about to point the same thing out.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, exactly. So let's talk about transporters.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
They are death machines, and this is something that is not recognized often enough. These are devices that scan all of the atomic properties of your body. They are able to discern at the surface level the difference between what is you and your microbiome and clothing, and what is the atmosphere, and leave the atmosphere or the water or whatever it is behind.
But here's the thing, is it scans all of the up, down, spin, rotational modes, the quantum, everything about your body, where the electrical signals are in your nerves. Yeah. And then it disassembles you at the far end into the constituent matter that would have been there.
So it replaces the atmosphere. We're not hearing a pop every time someone transports in and out.
Fraser Cain:
And then- And you're not inflated with that air or the bug flying by.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Exactly.
Fraser Cain:
Right.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Then it takes the volume of space that you would go into on the other end and replaces the you and your microbiome and your clothing and equipment as well, and anyone who you happen to have scooped up, and then replaces that volume of space on the other end with particles that have the correct waveforms, the correct everything. And the amount of energy and energy in this, yeah, the amount of information and energy in this.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That you are dismantling a human being at range to an atomic level, you are storing- To a quantum level.
To a quantum level. Yeah. You are storing the information in a computer, and then you are reassembling that person at another distance.
Yeah, it is crazy.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Now, quantum teleportation is real- Is different, but that's like a single pair of particles at a distance that both simultaneously exist.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And the thing about the way transporters work is there's a buffer that's holding your signal, which means there's the potential, as happened to Riker, to create two of somebody. And then there's also the, there's a Heisenberg- Compensator, yeah. That's the word.
Yeah. Because in our reality, as we understand it, you can know where something is, or you can know where it's going, and you can't know both at the quantum mechanical level. And if you don't know both, you can't recreate the human being- Right.
Or the teacup or anything else. So I deeply appreciate that both Willy Wonka and Gene Roddenberry came up with this really cool technology. We're not getting it in real life as far as physics has any say.
Fraser Cain:
I think the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, with its infinite improbability drive- That's just fun. Is like a slightly more feasible idea- Yeah. Because we are a collection of particles with a probability state of us being where we are.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
And that there is a slight, but not zero chance that we're actually on Mars, that all of our particles are all on Mars.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Or we'll fall through a chair.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, or we'll fall through the chair or whatever. And so in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, they just push the probabilities to put them somewhere else. And that's how this thing is able to transport itself.
And that is kind of cool that you could say, well, you happen to be here on our spaceship, but maybe there's a chance that you're down on the surface of that planet. And then the probabilities of all of your particles shift, and there you are down on the planet. That wouldn't allow you to store things in the pattern buffer and blah, blah, blah.
Right, right, right. And that would probably not have you die in the way that a transporter is really a suicide booth, right?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yes, yes.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so that's transporters. So we've covered engines, we've covered transporters, we've covered- Let's talk about shields.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Um, shields are another one of those things that takes a whole lot of energy, is somehow able to work without frying all the nearby electronics. So here's the thing about shields, is you can imagine that there's some sort of an EM field that is capable of when a energy weapon strikes it, the energy gets dissipated through the field. Uh, but if you had that powerful of a field, the stuff inside of the field would be getting impacted rather badly as well.
And that's not happening. So I have no idea how shields work.
Fraser Cain:
Um, okay. All right, so let's talk about the communication system, because they go faster than light with their ability to communicate.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yes, and this is one of those things that you can start to imagine through quantum entanglement. Although there's the fascinating case that quantum entanglement requires the, uh, two communicating entities to each have a pair of particles that originated from each other. Except that's not a thing in the Star Trek universe.
So yet again, they simply made stuff up, which I respect.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, but I mean, like, it's really important to say you can't use entangled particles as a way to communicate faster than the speed of light.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
No, no.
Fraser Cain:
Right? That the way I always describe it is that if you take a pair of gloves and you put them into two boxes and then you give them to two people and the people walk away and they go to other sides of the earth and one person opens up the box and goes, oh, I got the left glove.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
The other one automatically has the right.
Fraser Cain:
I know the other person has the right glove, but no information has been communicated. It's not like you're like, you can know when the person opened up their box and looked at their glove.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So the thing is, you can take a photon and you can run it through a filter and go, oh, it's left hand circularized. You can then run it through another filter and have it now come out right hand circularized. And the changing quantum state gets reflected in the other particle as well.
What we haven't figured out how to do is to get those changing quantum states to change at our back and call.
Fraser Cain:
Well, you observe them.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And thus it is now stuck like that.
Fraser Cain:
Right, but the point is, is that the act of observing the particle, like if I'm the other person and I observe my, you know, the two particles are entangled together, you've observed yours. That doesn't tell me anything halfway across the galaxy. Even though, you know, if you see yours is right-handed, mine will be left-handed.
There is no way to communicate any information. They absolutely will instantaneously across any distance fall into their correct placings, but no information is communicated. I don't know.
Sounds like I get a little bell that goes ding. The other person has observed their particle. There's just the back to the boxes with the left and right hand glove.
Anyway, let's talk about computers, holodecks, things like that.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
All right. So the thing about the computers that didn't occur to me until I was prepping for this show is we have a lot of concerns nowadays, at least randomly in moments of existential angst, that there are little devices all around us all the time waiting for us to say key words. And when we say those key words, they leap into readiness.
And it often feels like when you agree to that Facebook thing, do you not agree to the Facebook thing that says it can be listening to you? It absolutely is. I'm using that information for ads all the time.
And with my home device in a ball or other people's home devices in a pock, they're listening for keywords. But in the Star Trek universe, you just walk into a room and you say lights on, you say Earl Grey hot, and you get into the turbo lift. All these devices somehow are constantly listening and able to filter intention.
And no one ever worries about the fact that they're constantly listening. And people are holding very personal conversations in these turbo lifts. That's a great plot device.
And so you can imagine that a hacker could very readily understand everything about everyone just by planting software seeds that are like, get me the secrets of everybody because they're always being listened to.
Fraser Cain:
That is such a slow down concern scientifically compared to warp drives.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I understand, but this bothers me today.
Fraser Cain:
It sure does. Yeah, yeah. Now, to be fair on the turbo lifts, I think they hold a little handle.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
That's only in the old generation in the OG.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, yeah. But they grab a little handle and that is like a UI. Yeah, it's a UI thing to show intention.
But obviously, I mean, we are just one more technological advancement away from your Claude or Chattopadhyay, whatever, listening to you and knowing when you're talking to it just because it's obvious in the same way that a human, like if we were in the room together and I looked over at you and I said, tea, Earl Grey, hot. And you'd be like, yeah, all right. And you'd get up and you'd make some tea for us.
I wouldn't have to go, Pamela, tea, Earl Grey, hot. You'd get the intention, right? Or earthquake, we should run.
You know, I'm not going to use your name first.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I have no concerns about the software figuring this out. It's strictly the privacy concerns. We, as we move into the future, there's going to be less and less privacy.
Every time someone goes through the transporter beam, every bit of their medical knowledge is now in that computer.
[365]
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So I don't know. I had an existential crisis preparing for this show about privacy concerns in the Star Trek universe. I don't know why.
It was just where my morning was.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, that is so the least of our concerns.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah, brains aren't, brains do what brains are going to do.
Fraser Cain:
Let's talk about a couple of things that they did get super right. The one is just the communication devices.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah, they're ubiquitous. They are carried everywhere. They come in itty bitty tiny voice only.
They come in face to face. They catch you in awkward moments.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
All these things, they in the original show didn't catch the awkward moments nearly as much as that got caught in subsequent shows after we started having Skype and FaceTime as part of our day-to-day experience.
Fraser Cain:
But I mean, think about the original Star Trek and the little flip phone.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah, that was a thing in the 90s.
Fraser Cain:
That was the Razor, right?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
And then the pad. Yes. Was absolutely the iPad.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And then the iPad.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Newton did it first.
Fraser Cain:
And you could absolutely have a little badge on your chest that you touch it and it's a connection to your chat GPT that then takes it, listens to what you say and then performs actions on your behalf. That is absolutely within, yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
The Apple Watch with a cell connection is essentially a chest thingy down to all the health sensors embedded in it. It's just, it turns out health sensors really want to be touching your skin.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, yeah. So I think we are so far ahead of schedule on the computing and the telecommunications side of things. And tricorders.
Right. Yeah, there was an X-Prize like a decade ago where they were trying to build a tricorder essentially.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And they're slowly getting there between infrared imaging of the human body. There's actually been weird cases in museums of infrared educational cameras revealing pregnancies, revealing circulatory disorders, all these kinds of weird things. So between the combination of easy, small ultrasound, infrared cameras, sensors that now have the ability to use cameras to sense oxygenation levels, to sense pulse, to sense through the skin, sort of blood sugar levels, those you really want to sample.
We're getting really, really good at this stuff.
Fraser Cain:
Yep, yep, totally. Yeah, it's really interesting. Was there anything else in the Star Trek universe that you wanted to think about?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So one of the things that I want to acknowledge is because this is the universe we live in, as the Hubble Space Telescope imagery started to hit the zeitgeist, Star Trek started basing the way they did nebulae, the way they did so many different things on what Hubble was revealing about our universe. There is, in the opening to Strange New Worlds, a reimagining of actual Hubble imagery. Travis Rector, who was part of the Hubble Heritage Project, got to help collaborate on that image.
Fraser Cain:
That's cool.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And Star Trek has consistently, over the decades, been part of helping NASA get real science out to the public and show anyone could be part of science. And there's a lot of really good information out there about how, at a certain level, Michelle Nichols really struggled with, why am I not out there being part of the civil rights movement? Why am I not out there being more active?
And there were so many people that said, look, you're on TV every day, being a role model of a future where a black woman can be a communications officer with the ability to speak more languages than is rational.
Fraser Cain:
Right, right.
Fraser Cain:
All right, I think next week we're going to try and tackle Stargate? Stargate, yes. Nice.
All right. Finally, the one true science fiction. Thanks, Pamela.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Thank you, Fraser. And thank you to everyone out there whose name I am about to mispronounce. Some of you are realizing you can make me say silly things by having silly Patreon names.
To those of you who make me laugh, I raise a toast. To those of you with names I'm about to mispronounce, I'm just really sorry. Here we go.
This week, I would like to thank A Bit of Bear, Alex Cohen, Andre Palestra, Arctic Fox, Boré André-Lovesvall, Benjamin Carrier, Bob Kale, Brian Cook, Buzz Parsec, Cody Rose, Daniel Loosley, David Bogarty, Diane Philippon, Dr. Jeff Collins, Eron Zegrev, Father Prax, G. Caleb Sexton, Glenn McDavid, Greg Vialt, Helga Bjorkhag, Janelle, Jeanette Wink, Jim Schooler, Joe McTee, John M, Jordan Turner, Caleb Axson, Keith Murray, Christian Golding, Laura Kettleson, Lana Spencer, Mark Schneider, Matt Rucker, MHW1961, Super Symmetrical, Michael Regan, Nala, Noah Albertson, Pauldi Disney, Pauline Middleink, Randall, R3, Robert Hundle, Sergio Sansevero, Sandra Stanz, Scott Briggs, Sergey Monolov, Stephen Coffey, The Big Squish Squash, Triker, Will Field, and Zero Chill. Thank you all so very much.
Fraser Cain:
All right. Thanks, everyone. And we will see you next week.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Bye-bye, everyone.
Live Show
May the fourth be with you! Isn’t that what people say on the international holiday known as Star Wars Day? Today we’re gonna talk about the science in everyone’s favorite sci-fi fantasy stories. Which of it is real, and which is essentially magic? Let’s find out! Let's look at the science of a galaxy long ago and far away. (Did you just hear the theme music in your head? We heard it start in our head!)
Show Notes* Science and physics of the Star Wars universe * Pamela dressed as Princess Leia * Future science episodes: + Star Trek + Stargate SG-1 * Fraser and Pamela’s first Star Wars memories * Favorite sci-fi shows: + Andor + The Expanse + Babylon 5 * Debate: Is Star Wars fantasy or science fiction? * Discussion of the Star Wars galaxy and black holes * Kessel Run and the “parsec” debate * Hyperspace travel and hyperlanes * Real-world concepts: + Ion engines + Interplanetary Superhighway + Alcubierre drive * Unrealistic asteroid belts in sci-fi * Gravity inaccuracies in science fiction * Lightsabers as plasma weapons * Tokamak and fusion reactor comparisons * The Force linked to gravity and quantum-like effects * Planet-destroying weapons and Starkiller Base physics * Technology differences between Star Wars and Star Trek
TranscriptFraser Cain:
AstronomyCast, Episode 792, The Science of Star Wars. Welcome to AstronomyCast, our weekly facts-based journey through the Cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I'm Fraser Cain, I'm the Publisher of Universe Today.
With me as always is Dr. Pamela Gay, a Senior Scientist for the Planetary Science Institute and the Director of CosmoQuest. Hey Pamela, how are you doing?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I am well, and my allegiance is to the Republic, to democracy.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, so hopefully if people are seeing the video of the episode that we are recording, you have Princess Leia hair.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I do, I do, and the video is currently working. We did have a glitch in our pre-show that folks watching on YouTube got to see. I am wearing my rainbow rubble t-shirt, the Princess Leia braids criss-crossing, which is I think about the only hairstyle she has you can actually do with your hair.
Everything else requires more hair than human beings have.
Fraser Cain:
So I didn't know we were doing this, so I, you know, didn't have a costume. But, and if I had, I would have pushed back and said, I will do this, but only if we will also do a Science of Star Trek and a Science of Stargate. I'm good for that.
All right. Okay. So we'll make this a trilogy.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I will rewrite the season and yes, we shall make it so.
Fraser Cain:
Nice. Make it so. Number one.
All right. May the 4th be with you. Isn't that what people say on the international holiday known as Star Wars Day?
Today, we're going to talk about the science at everyone's favorite sci-fi fantasy stories, which of it is real and which is essentially magic. Let's find out. All right.
So Pamela, when did you experience Star Wars first?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I in theory saw it in the theater when it first came out. However, I was of so early an age that I have no memories of this. But I am pretty sure that I got to watch Star Wars for the first time for realsies in a meaningful way at our local library during one of the summer library programs.
And Empire Strikes Back, waiting in line to see Empire Strikes Back, I have distinct memories of sitting on the cement, leaning against the wall at the shopping mall, drawing and coloring books. And I had a massive bag filled with toys to keep me occupied the entire day.
Fraser Cain:
So you would have been like six?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Something like that. Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. I was seven. Six.
I was six in 1977. I think I watched it in 78. But I actually think I read the comic book first.
But it was weird. Like back in the day, back in the olden times, in the before 40 times, movies would be playing for six months. Right.
Right. And so you could just go and watch the movie and then go back and watch it. Like that does not happen anymore.
Like it's switched to video, you know, the DVDs come out and even that doesn't even happen anymore. This goes straight to streaming. So, um, but yeah, and it affected me.
Like I'm sure it did you, like here you are wearing your Princess Leia hair. So it must have affected you. It was, it just blew my, my young mind that, that you could have a movie that had spaceships and glowing swords and aliens.
And it was amazing. Uh, haven't watched it since my kids were born.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Really?
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Like I tried to, well, they were like six, five and I was like, okay, time to watch Star Wars. And they're like, meh, let's watch Avatar the Last Airbender again.
Like, all right. Yeah. I can't, can't argue with that.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So I have to admit that watching it as an adult, I do find Luke to be insufferably emo.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. So I've got the, I've got the blu rays, uh, I found them at a thrift shop and so I'm going to, I'm going to watch them, but I, I didn't watch it, but I, you know, I've gone on record saying that Andor is easily my favorite, definitely my favorite Star Wars thing ever. Probably in my top three favorite science fiction things ever.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
So it, and I'm like rewatching Stargate right now.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
But it's not comfort food, just to warn you. There's like... Andor?
Yeah, like I can rewatch Buffy a gazillion times as comfort food, even though it's not a happy, bright show, but, and I can watch Babylon five. It's comfort food. Andor takes your heart.
So it says, see this, see this?
Fraser Cain:
Squish. Yeah. Yeah. I love it.
Give me more of that. It's not comfort food. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So I'm seeing the Expanse.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Andor. Oh man. I've been...
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Babylon five and the new version of Battlestar Galactica.
Fraser Cain:
So the new Battlestar Galactica is dead to me.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
The last episode killed the entire series? Dead to me.
Fraser Cain:
Yep.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Okay. That's fair.
Fraser Cain:
It is, it is, it is utterly failed.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
The first two seasons of it. Yeah. Yeah.
The first two seasons are amazing.
Fraser Cain:
The first season is probably the finest season of science fiction ever made.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
The rest are, the rest, I mean, when Starbuck returns...
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Once they could found the planet that they started colonizing, it was over. Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
No. Yeah. Anyway, but that's not what we're talking about.
We're talking about Star Wars. But I hope everybody is sort of thinking about, everyone who loves Star Wars anyway, is thinking about when they first encountered the medium, the juggernaut that is Star Wars. But I was listening to a Brandon Sanderson podcast recently.
Okay. And he said, Star Wars isn't science fiction. It's fantasy.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It is, it is both, I would argue.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. I, I, I sort of buy it that it is fantasy. And weirdly the Lord of the Rings is science fiction.
But but let's talk about sort of the science that is in Star Wars. Where do you want to start?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So I want to start with considering the question, is it a galaxy far, far away? Is it a dwarf galaxy far, far away? Is it a star forming region far, far away?
Because there, there is this sense that you get across all the different episodes over the years that it is tightly compact, that, that this is someplace where it's easy to get from point A to point B. And there is a scene after Luke has had his hand reattached, where they're all looking out the window at what looks like the Sombrero galaxy, as though they're really darn close to it.
Fraser Cain:
Hmm. And was it actually the Sombrero?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It was not actually the Sombrero, but it was definitely artwork very close to the Sombrero galaxy.
Fraser Cain:
So they were they were outside of a galaxy.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. That's weird. So you're thinking, so you're thinking dwarf, that's, that's funny, that that that has never even occurred to you.
But now it is having back. And so you're thinking that they're in a dwarf galaxy that is orbiting, it's, it's something like large Magellanic cloud, right, right there in a dwarf galaxy that is orbiting around some recent, recently merged or impacted, maybe jellyfish galaxy, like the Sombrero. That's interesting.
Okay. Oh, good eye.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And this opens up a lot of their stuff to make more sense, because how do you get it so that it is so easy to get from one world to another and I know about hyperspace lanes and all that sort of nonsense. But the Kessler system is theoretically in the center of their galaxy. And you have to go through thick clouds to get to it.
And if it is a massively star forming dwarf galaxy, something like, I guess, more like the small Magellanic cloud, right, right. You can imagine having that exist without having a supermassive black hole right there, making it impossible to get to and ruining the possibility of life.
Fraser Cain:
Right. And I mean, the retcon about the whole Kessler run in blah, blah, blah, blah, parsecs. And later on, people have said, well, they've, the way you explain it is that there's a black hole.
Well, why not have there be an intermediate mass black hole at the heart of this dwarf galaxy? And you can have your stars close together. You can have a lot of sort of big, obnoxious stars, a lot of kinds of places that will have been seeded with heavier elements.
You could have more metals, more, uh, more interesting star forming regions. Yeah. That's interesting.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
There's other ways within the canon that make more sense to fix that. So, so one of the things that comes out in, in the, uh, high Republic era is that the standard, uh, hyper lanes that are used to get between different jump points. It's the reason that Tatooine has so much traffic is because it has a lot of jump lanes that go there.
And if you consider most ships fly along these jump lanes, but some have the capacity to generate their own jump points, or I guess hyper lane paths is the better way to phrase it. Then suddenly you have it where the Millennium Falcon, instead of following a standard hyperspace lane is generating its own hyperspace lane, making its own calculations and reducing the castle run from 18 parsecs to 12.
Fraser Cain:
No, no, no, no, no, no. I will not let you follow that retcon.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Okay.
Fraser Cain:
No, it was George Lucas messing up an astronomical term. He thought parsec was a measure of, of time. It's a, it's a measure of distance.
He screwed it up and, and nope, nope, nope. But fine, fine. You know, if you want to retcon, because the problem is how do you retcon the mistake to explain the, the, the galaxy?
No, no, fine. Like, I'm just going to roll over. I don't care.
Whatever. Um, okay. So, so that's, that's great.
You know, it had never really occurred to me to try and place the galaxy. And I love the clues that you're, that you're working with because like, obviously, again, just some artists had said, Oh, it'd be really cool to have a really cool galaxy. Kind of like how it would be cool to have a really cool nebulas outside the window, have them looking at it.
Well, to look at a galaxy that big with your eyeballs has to put you in a certain position. I think that, yeah, I think that's interesting. So I wasn't familiar with this idea of the, of the transportation system that, that you had to follow these, these hyper lanes.
So did they ever explain this?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. So apparently, uh, various life forms, the space whales, I know they have a fancier name. Um, as well as some Jedi have the ability to fold space, essentially doing Tesseracts for stealing ideas from other authors now.
Fraser Cain:
Talk about stealing from Dune. Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. And, and in the process they create paths through space.
Fraser Cain:
Got it.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Okay. And then technology also enabled this to happen. So there is an issue where a lot of force users are actually extremely uncomfortable in hyperspace because they're sensitive to what has happened in the past.
You don't see this in the, uh, Star Wars trilogy trilogy as much, uh, because Jedi in the modern era are less capable of than ones in the past era. Um, yeah, that gets into genetics issues that is a different issue.
Fraser Cain:
Right. And so they're sort of following this idea of there being highways, space highways that you have. So, okay.
So let's talk about the science of that then. Are there space highways?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Not so much. What there are is lower gravity pathways between, uh, or I guess gravitationally favorable pathways between points. So you can imagine with each massive object curving space in certain ways, the shortest path between two points isn't going to be a straight line.
It's going to be something that is this weird curved path that maximizes how you take it advantage of these gravitational wells.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. And this was called the interplanetary superhighway and this was something that came out like maybe we learned about it like maybe 20 years ago and people had done the math where you could essentially drift from a Lagrange point to Lagrange point. And this would explain some of the migration of various objects in the solar system that there are these, these propellant free pathways that you can take and they can take tens of thousands of years for you to get from say Earth vicinity, Mars vicinity or vice versa.
But for, you know, long, long term movement within the solar system, this can explain some of the weird migrations that we see.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It also starts to get you towards some of the semi-stable things that we have, but that's a different episode.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. So, so that is transportation. And then, and then how the, you've got the, the ion engines which carry you inside the, you know, at sub light speed, which that feels, you know, that's very scientific.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It's both very now and very problematic simultaneously because you have to wonder just what ions are they flinging that allow them to accelerate that fast? One of the major problems with ion drives is you're flinging like literal atoms. And even if you upgrade to molecules, you can only fling them so fast.
And they're called ion drives. So, the idea is they are either loading up with a whole lot of mass that they are flinging at rates no magnetic field we have is capable of, like not the rate of the particles, but the throughput of the particles. It has a higher flux density than our current ion drives.
Yeah. And, and then you're just like, wow, they're carrying a lot of really high energy particles.
Fraser Cain:
So that, see, that does not bother me at all. Like someone saying this propulsion system that we know works and has been used on spacecraft and is actually, it was very, very responsive, lasts for long periods of time, sits at fuel, highly efficient.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It makes me feel uncomfortable about the stability, not the lack of its existence.
Fraser Cain:
You can then just say, future societies will scale this technology up so that you can actually have them be on TIE fighters and they can be flying around doing dogfights like that. That is the one of the least things for me, when you then say, well, you know, could you space with these, with these giant ships and wink in and out of existence and travel it at faster than light speeds? Then we're shifting into Alcubierre drives and warp technology, which requires entirely new physics.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. We don't have that physics. The ion drives like this could exist.
I fear for the people using them. Sure.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. But I mean, like all of it, I mean.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It is not a safe universe.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, you got swords that people can walk around with that create, that can melt metal.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I mean, come on. Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
All right. Okay. So we've talked about the, the spaceships.
What do you want to, what else do you want to talk about?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Asteroids.
Fraser Cain:
Okay.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So, so I have two rants. One, I'm sure you've all heard before, and this is the density of the asteroids in asteroid belts in the star Wars universe is much greater.
Fraser Cain:
And every universe. No, no, no. They're all the same.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
No, no, no.
Fraser Cain:
That's true. Star Wars, Stargate, Battlestar Galactica. It's all the same.
They all make the same mistake.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
They, they aren't that dense folks. If they were, the objects would gravitationally pull themselves back together and form large objects. That's just what gravity does.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. In like the asteroid belt, the objects are hundreds of thousands of kilometers apart from each other.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
When you're in the Kuiper belt, they are millions. When you're in the earth cloud, they are tens of millions of kilometers apart from each other.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Space is very empty where space is not very empty. Things are attracted to each other and either orbiting each other or on collision courses with one another or both, both as an option.
Fraser Cain:
And so there is no such thing as an asteroid field.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Only right after something has been destroyed. So like maybe right after Alderaan gets blasted apart, um, that would form a fairly dense field, but for hours.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
So, so a hundred percent agree with you. Um, what else do you think is, uh, what else would you like to talk about the weapons?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
No, no, no. I have a second rant.
Fraser Cain:
Oh, you have a second. You have a second rant.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Asteroids. So in, I believe it is Empire Strikes Back, they are flying the Millennium Falcon through the asteroid belt and they take damage. They go to land in a cave.
I have no problems with the concept of a cave. It's what happens next. So they have landed on a fairly small object in the grand scheme of things.
It's significantly smaller than our moon and they land and I'm fine with the gravity after they land while they're on the Millennium Falcon because we've already come to understand it has artificial gravity of some sort, but they step outside and as they're walking around in what turns out to be the mouth of a big old scary object, um, they're not experiencing low gravity.
Fraser Cain:
Right. They're experiencing normal Earth gravity.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. They should be bouncing around way more than, uh, folks on the moon did back in the sixties. They, they should be like accidentally flinging themselves into the ceiling and there is somehow a fairly thick atmosphere, uh, that is allowing flying things to fly and, and that amount of gravity would require that asteroid to be made of, of neutron star, not quite, but definitely it starts to make you question, uh, why are they landing here rather than mining this?
Cause if it's made of that kind of material, clearly this is useful for other purposes.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. So to be fair, everyone also makes that mistake. You have either Earth gravity or weightlessness.
That is, that is all that is ever portrayed in science fiction. I have never, ever once seen a lower gravity portrayed in any way.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Eureka. There was one episode of Eureka where hats off to Kevin Grazier cause he was their science advisor and they land on Titan and get out to walk around and I'm like, Titan has low gravity. What's going on here, Kevin?
This is my internal dialogue. And then the scientists on the TV or show like this can't be Titan, the gravity's wrong. I'm like, yes, they got it. They figured something out. Well, but they didn't display it. Yeah.
One episode of Eureka.
Fraser Cain:
Acknowledging it. Yes. But, but like when I think about, uh, for all mankind, they're on the moon, they're on, uh, they're on Mars, they're pouring liquids, they're walking around, they're climbing ladders.
Like it would all just be different. And someone is, someone is mentioning in the chat here about the expanse. Nope.
The expanse doesn't do it either. They don't get it quite right. They try.
The expanse, when you're on the asteroid station, they show birds flying in a way that they would in low gravity. And I was like, oh my God, somebody actually did it. But, but the way they pour liquid, the way liquids would slosh, the way people would walk around, they would, the way they would get out of their chairs, just walking around on a station when you are one 100th gravity would be totally different or even one 10th gravity, one 20th gravity.
It just is a totally different experience than what it would be for you to be on earth. And it's just like, obviously because it's too complicated, it's way too easy. Why bother?
Because only nerds like me are going to notice.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I do appreciate that an expanse, they tie up hair in a way that you don't notice.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. For the zero gravity.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Okay.
Fraser Cain:
Well, let's move back to Star Wars. Now, I think we just added a fourth thing for the expanse. But let's, let's go into some other aspects of the Star Wars universe.
Where else do you want to go?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So I think we have to address the elephant in the room. Is it the Death Star? That's bigger than an elephant.
I was thinking more the lightsabers.
Fraser Cain:
Okay, sure. We'll talk about lightsabers.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So lightsabers, originally called laser swords in the script, are clearly plasma swords. And people do confuse lasers and plasma. I don't fully understand it is a thing.
But what's really cool is if you do assume that they're plasma swords, the colors that they're at are such that you can say that it's either contaminants or they're different temperatures such that Jedi with blue kyber crystals have much hotter laser plasma swords than the red Sith. So I just appreciate that. Although I'm more on the it's probably contaminants side.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Because that is more in keeping with the kyber crystals as a way of handling the plasma. Now, what is really fun to think about is tokamaks use tokamak nuclear fusion uses their fission.
Fraser Cain:
Tokamaks are fusion.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
They are fusion. Okay. I'm having a moment.
Clearly.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. So it's a magnetic containment.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
They're not hydrogen helium. They're heavy elements.
Fraser Cain:
No. They're hydrogen helium. Yeah.
Yeah. The hydrogen. So tokamak is a type of fusion reaction.
So you can either have the laser ignition, which is what was done. Finally, they reached energy parity in the, in the U S at the national ignition facility. The other option is your, is your magnetic containment, which is a tokamak reactor.
And that's what's being done for the, for the IDER experiment, which is being built in Europe right now. And you essentially take fusion, you take hydrogen, contain it, heat it up to ludicrous temperatures so that like, because in the sun you get enormous pressure at reasonable temperatures. And by reasonable, I say 4 million or whatever it is, 15 million degrees, right?
And then you have the entire pressure of the sun and that gets you fusion, but you can't produce the, the pressure in a, in a hydrogen in, in a tokamak reactor. So instead you go for the temperature. And so they go to whatever, a hundred million Celsius, and that gets you the recipe again, but you have to use this magnetic containment that keeps the thing together.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
You have a donut shaped magnetic contained plasma, which is apparently where I stopped reading because I got so excited because it's a toroid. And so this beautifully contained plasma doesn't have essentially stray filaments of plasma because it's, it's confined in a shape that the magnetic fields cause things to just curve back around. Now in order to get a stable lightsaber, it would have to actually be a hollow, long skinny toroid that, that allows this no hair magnetic field solution.
And so you can imagine, uh, the best way to do this is to have a dipole that flies out as you turn on your lightsaber. What if you had a monopole, would that work?
Fraser Cain:
Magnetic monopole? Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Magnetic monopoles are, are one of those theoretical things that doesn't seem to actually exist. So I haven't gone down that rabbit hole.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Yeah. But, but I think again, it doesn't really bother me that much.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
No, but it's fun to think that the same science that works in, in tokamak reactors also could explain lightsabers, which means we might be able to create these as a really good cutting tool and a way to slaughter your neighbors.
Fraser Cain:
It would be, yeah, it would be really amazing that if, if like you saw the lightsaber and then in just the right orientation, you could see that the lightsaber was actually a, was, had a, had a line in the middle that it was following a kind of toroidal shape. That would be like a very long skinny toroidal shape. And so it would look like a, like a sword, but if you, and because even when you look at the lightsabers, the ends of them are, are rounded, like the end of the, the very end of it is rounded.
And if so, so it'd be very interesting if they had a, they had a lightsaber and they, they were fighting with it and it actually turns out you've looked at it just right. It's actually like a balloon animal turn, you know, like a long balloon animal pinched off at both ends with a, with a sort of gap in between. That would be really, that would be great.
I would love that.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And electromagnetic fields like this hum and yeah, you can imagine the magnetic field reconnections occurring when lightsabers collide with one another. And, and so the, the one place where it falls down is where you have two lightsabers getting held in contact with one another. Those magnetic fields would probably merge and just create some sort of really nasty moving plasma.
There's, there's no word for what would occur. Yeah. Um, so, so I was going fine until I started thinking about collisions and yes, like plasma colliding with plasma isn't going to be a rigid magnetic field versus magnetic field.
Magnetic fields are, are in their fields. They flow like water.
Fraser Cain:
But they can add, they can, they can subtract from each other. Yeah. It would be a mess, wouldn't it?
You'd be like pouring out contained magnetic plasma, pouring out plasma on each other. The second your swords hit, that would be a bad day.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Well, you'd have the sum of the two fields.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So the sum of the two fields, you're now like, that's math I don't want to do, but it could be fun. It could be fun.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. But you, you could get the sum of the fields. You could also get those fields canceling each other out.
You could get the, right. You could get, and so what you would end up with is a, a spray of plasma on, on each fighter. That would be very bad.
All right. Uh, we're, we're running out of time. So we've got to, we've got to speed run through the, through some of the other aspects of, of Star Trek because there's way too much.
Okay. Can we just say the force, there's nothing.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So, so the force is interesting because the force is instantaneous. Uh, so it clearly, it clearly doesn't travel at the speed of light because OB one is able to sense the destruction of, uh, Alderaan at a distance while they're traveling at faster than the speed of light. So the force is somehow instantaneous.
It has a massive effects on gravity. So, uh, you can also realize that, uh, Amidala, uh, Queen Amidala, uh, she's a force user. If you look at, uh, where she frees herself and the second movie, um, where they're fighting and in the, the big gladiatorial battle and all the robots come in at the end, I guess that's, yeah, that's the second movie.
Fraser Cain:
I don't, it has almost been washed from my mind.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It's okay. It's the one where, uh, OB one ends up riding a lizard because he is far better at riding animals than he is at flying spaceships. Um, and, and, uh, if you look at the height that she's jumping from and the rate at which she falls in the movie, you can actually calculate that, that the rate that gravity is affecting her is not the same rate that it's affecting other things in the field.
So she must be a force user, which had been predicted in other things. Um, but, but the over and over and over across all the different series, uh, there's, there's a, uh, in the Clone Wars comic series, there's, uh, an episode where OB one theoretically dies so that they can have him go under, go undercover in, um, with some stuff. And, and Ahsoka is like, he should have been able to survive that fall because force users manipulate gravity left and right.
It's just what they do. So gravity and the force are deeply tied together.
Fraser Cain:
Right. And so whatever it is, it's instantaneous. So it's kind of like an entanglement.
Yes. And it has something to do with gravity. Yes.
Right. But it also has something to do with minds, which again.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It's working at a quantum mechanics level for some things.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So, and then it's capable of warping space and time. If it was force users who created the hyperspace tunnels.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Okay. All right.
What is, was there, were there any other aspects that you wanted to talk about, about the science of Star Wars before we, before we wrap up this episode?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm willing to say that I will die on the hill that that galaxy long ago and far away was, was not a massive galaxy. And that all the maps we see across everything from their Goonies like child series that came out recently to the maps in the third trilogy, uh, all seem to indicate we're looking at a dwarf galaxy.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Right. So the last thing that I think is, is kind of interesting, you know, I mean, I brought this up earlier, which was the death star.
And that is just that if you want to destroy a planet with a laser, then you have to overcome the gravitational binding energy of the planet. That is, that's the math that you need to do. So if you're looking to do a calculation of how much energy would be required, you just need to calculate the, the gravitational binding energy of, of earth, for example.
And then that you get that calculation, which is essentially how much energy would take to lift a chunk of earth, like say a kilogram of earth off the planet and out onto an escape trajectory and then grab another kilogram. And of course, earth has become less massive while you lift these kilograms off, add up all that energy. You know, it's like, it's a calculus thing.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Once you're down to zero, that is the total amount of energy that must be delivered by some weapon. And if you can do that, then you can destroy a planet. Um, and then in the sequels, they have the star killer base where they're clearly right.
And they're firing a laser across light years of distance and then destroying targets, which of course doesn't work because it's an energy weapon needs to travel at the speed of light. You would need to wait, uh, years for the, for the destruction of this weapon to come through. So, so that I have, I have a problem with, uh, the, the rest of the things, the weapons is fine.
Lasers sounds good. Uh, was it proton torpedoes? Fine.
That's Star Trek. No, that's photon torpedoes.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Oh, you're right. You're right.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. In Star Wars, they're proton torpedoes.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Okay.
Fraser Cain:
You're right. And then they have, which I, which I think is great is they have, um, ion, ion blasters, but they can disrupt the electronics of the spacecraft that they hit destroy, drop the shields.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So one of the things that remains deeply amusing to me that is sideways from the science we normally do, and that's the lack of passwords that R2D2 has to know. Right. Uh, so, so clearly.
Bad security.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. Yeah. Either R2D2 is, is running that new, uh, mythos software, uh, that came out or is just hacker extraordinary because there clearly are passwords in the Star Wars universe.
Just not that bother R2D2.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. I, I love the lack of computers in the Star Wars universe.
I think that's, that's terrific. It's totally unrealistic, but I love it. And, uh, yeah, I do.
I think that, that having it go, it could, because it's sort of like, it's too easy. Like once the computers are super fancy and the, you know, we think about the level of AI that we have today, just imagine if you're on some spaceship and you you're needing questions to be answered, that's what it's like in Star Trek, which we'll talk, we'll talk about in an upcoming episode. All right.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
One last thought, the, the Star Wars universe has the moral equivalent of switch for handheld devices while Star Trek has the moral equivalent of iPads. So you can see where different places were inspired. Right.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, totally. All right. That was, that was fun.
Uh, may the, may the fourth be with you. And unto you.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
All right. We would now like to thank a new round of humans because it is a new month. Uh, so if you joined in the month of April, this will be the first month.
You have a chance of hearing your name. There are a lot of you. So we're going to divide this up into a different group each week.
And as always, I'm really sorry for my lack of ability to pronounce things. That's part of the charm.
Fraser Cain:
And it really is.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Our show wouldn't be here without the amazing support of so many of you at patreon.com slash astronomy cast this week. We'd like to thank by name. And I'm sorry for my pronunciation.
Phonics is not my friend. This week. We'd like to thank Astro Bob, Bob Carroll, Brett Mormon, Brian Cook, Bruce Amazine, Cooper, Dale Alexander, Daniel loosely, David Rossiata, Don Mundus, Dr. Jeff Collins, Elliot Walker. Fairchild. Just as it sounds. Father Prax. Felix book. Good. Gordon Dewis. Gregory Singleton. How McKinney. James. Jeanette wink. Jim McGeehan. Joanne Mulvey. Kate Sindretto. Kate and Ulysses. Keith Murray. Kenneth Ryan. Kinsaya Panko. Mark. Mark. Steven Rasnack. Mark Thompson. Matthew Crampton. Matthew Horstman. Matthias Hayden. MHW 1961. Super symmetrical. Michael Prashada. Michael Regan. Papa hot dog. Paul Garmin.Peter Raj. Jeff are Kari. Ruben McCarthy. Sage Sinfen. Scone. Scott Bieber. Shabhana. Steve Rutley. Taz Tali. Van Ruckman. Will Field and zero chill. Thank you all so very much.
Fraser Cain:
All right. Thanks everyone. And we'll see you next week.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Bye bye.
Live Show
Last week we talked about samples from other worlds delivered to Earth by meteorites. But sometimes you’ve gotta do the job yourself. Visit the far off place and bring the samples home. And today we’re gonna talk about China’s Chang’e sample return program. How they’ve delivered rocks from different parts of the Moon, and how this sets the stage for their upcoming human lunar missions.
Show Notes* Chang’e Program Overview * Chang’e 6 Mission Details * Mission Accomplishment * Mission Significance * Chang’e 5 Mission Findings * Chang’e 5 Mission Outcome * Lunar Exploration Challenges * Lunar Research Focus * Moon Formation Theories * International Lunar Collaboration * Mission Objective * Mission Timeline * Mission Details * Mars Sample Return Mission * Mars Human Mission * Artemis Mission Concerns
TranscriptFraser Cain:
AstronomyCast, Episode 791, Chang'e Sample Return. Welcome to AstronomyCast, our weekly facts-based journey through the cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I'm Fraser Cain, I'm the publisher of Universe Today.
With me, as always, is Dr. Pamela Gay, a Senior Scientist for the Planetary Science Institute, and the Director of CosmoQuest. Hey, Pamela, how are you doing?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I am doing well. How are you doing?
Fraser Cain:
Good. I am doing well as well. We are both enjoying the spring and getting out there with our saws and our clippers and our lawnmowers and starting to process nature, bring it back into the fold.
And yeah, it's crazy. Our mason bees just came out today. We've got a house wren that is sitting on a birdhouse that I made that is just calling and calling for a mate.
We've got swallows that have all showed up and are examining all of the swallow boxes that I built. We saw an alligator lizard yesterday, which is a highlight. It's our native lizard here on Baker Island.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I had no idea they went that far north.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, we have salamanders. So my wife found a salamander climbing out of our thyme shrubs, which was awesome. And she delivered it out into the forest.
It's just, you know, deer, I'm ready for the bears. It always just, it's always surprising. Like I've even written all this stuff down in my calendar that I talk about and yet still they show up and you're like, finally, I never knew that this would return.
And here we are, spring is returning and I just love it so much.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
That is absolutely amazing. The thing that has not returned is my video camera functionality. So it was working and then everything said, no, I shall die now.
So those of you watching this on YouTube, I have disappeared. And we're going to continue to talk while I continue to work on this and we will go to break and I will finish fixing it when we get a break.
Fraser Cain:
I don't look at you when we record anyway.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
No, I know.
Fraser Cain:
Last week, we talked about samples from other worlds delivered to earth by meteorites, but sometimes you've got to do the job yourself, visit the far off place and bring the samples home. And today we're going to talk about China's Chang'e Sample Return Program, how they've delivered rocks from different parts of the moon and how this sets the stage for their upcoming human lunar missions. All right.
So first, I think we need to talk about the pronunciation of Chang'e, Chang'e, so Chang'e. So the uh part, the last part is, and this is my instinct is because, you know, I've been learning Mandarin. And so when you are hungry, you are uh-la, so if I say I am hungry, I say wa-uh-la.
So and it's that same uh, and so it's that sort of E by itself.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
But the name has nothing to do with hunger. Hunger.
Fraser Cain:
No, no, no, no. So no, no, no.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Just to be clear.
Fraser Cain:
Chang'e, Chang'e is, is the moon goddess.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yes.
Fraser Cain:
And so uh, that's why the whole, the whole lunar exploration program is named after the moon goddess. So uh, now we're going to sort of end on the actual sample return missions and then talk a bit about what's coming next, but let's sort of start at the beginning of the, of the Chang'e program.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So this is the Chinese program to uh, go to the moon, explore very completely. They've been doing slow and steady wins the race. I think it's the best way to describe their mission profile.
This started in the early 20 teens, uh, they have systematically orbited it with two different missions at successfully higher resolution. They have done landings, uh, they have done communication satellites, uh, Chang'e 5 was nearside sample return, Chang'e 6 was the, the triumvirate of awesome. It was a landing in South Aitken Basin in Apollo crater, uh, which is one of the lowest sites on the moon.
So like, holy heck, how did you do that? Um, then they, they, uh, also landed on far side as part of that and, um, they had a communication satellite, so it worked. And then the third amazingness is they then brought back nearly two kilograms of sample, um, including they drilled.
So they were able to do like things that we dreamed of doing with the Viper Rover. They have done it and they have brought the stuff back and they even took a stealth Rover that they didn't announce ahead of time and people realized was there from photos of the mission. Um, so yeah, for selfies, yeah, it's what they do.
They take selfies. It's excellent.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. I mean, whoever is running the, um, the promotional arm of the, of the missions of the lunar exploration missions from China has, is on the ball and they did this for Mars too. So, so when they had their, um, their Tianwen mission go to Mars, they had a little selfie, free flying selfie camera that detached from the mission and took a picture of it.
And you know, we are always talking about how, like, obviously there are no pictures of the spacecraft in orbit because you haven't sent another spacecraft to take a picture of your spacecraft. That's ridiculous. Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
They do that.
Fraser Cain:
Unless you're the Chinese and you send a separate spaceship with your spaceship so you can take a picture. And they, so they do this. And so you've got this great, this great picture of the Chang'e, um, on the surface of the moon taken by this, this little, uh, this little Rover that they had, they had attached.
But, but, I mean, you just, you went through six missions there very, very quickly.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So, so that was, that was the overview.
Fraser Cain:
Um, but let's, let's focus on their first sample return mission.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Okay. So that, that's Chang'e 5 and this, this was a mission that landed like we did basically on the near side of the moon, uh, northern hemisphere. And, uh, it brought back, uh, 1.7 kilograms of lunar soil. And then what they did with the spacecraft is kind of almost more exciting to me than the lunar sample. But this is an episode on the lunar sample. So I should go into that.
Fraser Cain:
No, no, no. But I'm like, no. Tell us the thing that's more exciting.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Go on. So, so they do something that we don't generally do with our earth moon system spacecraft, which is they, they took the spacecraft, they then stored it out at L2 and continue doing exploring. It wasn't a matter of just going, grabbing a sample and then ditching whatever they didn't need any further.
They're like, no, we're going to go over here now. We're going to do more stuff now. And I just kind of love that for them.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. So the, the, the service module, they flew it out to the earth moon L2 Lagrange point, not to be confused with the earth sun L2 Lagrange point where James Webb and so such are.
But, um, and you know, these require a little bit of fuel to maintain your position. And so the spacecraft has gone out there and then we'll be sort of testing maneuvers for future lunar missions. And so trying to just understand how to move in this Lagrange point area.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And they've also been testing communications. They built a neat, uh, they're, they're using a very long baseline interferometry tests as, as part of what they're doing. Uh, so, so they have three ground based stations and now they're sticking things out there to continue running their tests.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. They, they put a, uh, we'll talk about this for the, for the, the sixth mission, but they, they put, they put a, um, a relay satellite on the far side of the moon because obviously you can't communicate with the far side of the moon from the surface of the earth. And so, uh, again, this is, this is all going to lead into the conversation about what the future of a, of a Chinese, uh, human mission is going to look like, because a lot of this is the same kind of, of technology.
Okay. So, uh, so they, and so what, what went to the surface of the moon?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I mean, they, they had a, a lander and a module on Chang'e-5, um, oh, it's, it's mainstream media has completely ruined me for pronouncing this, but I'm going to try and get it right.
Fraser Cain:
Um, well the, the, the, the first part is just like, like you're saying like kind of shung and so think about it like cheese, Chung, cheese, Chung, yeah, Chung-ge, Chung-ge.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
All right. So, so they had a, a orbiter, they detached from the orbiter, they had a lander and the sender module, um, and they left the lander behind, which is kind of what you do with a lander. And, uh, then they flung the sample skyward, re-docked, came, and they did a whole lot of transferring of the sample back and forth between things, which kind of surprised me.
They didn't do the, we scoop it up and then we dropped what we scooped it up into, which is kind of what we saw with OSIRIS-REx. Um, so they transferred things around and then they dropped it on the Mongolian desert as they do.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Yeah. Um, and there's great pictures of them retrieving the sample capsule from the desert.
And what did they discover from, from bringing these samples home? Apart from we can return samples from the moon, that's what we've discovered.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
They did find, uh, one configuration of titanium oxide that was different from minerals previously found. So they added a new mineral to the list of lunar minerals, which is always exciting. Um, they, as we have been continuously doing, they, uh, were looking to see what is the age dating of the sample.
There was nothing exciting with this side compared to the other side, which we're gonna get to. Um, but it was just like standard. Everything goes along, crater dating matches lunar sample.
Everything is happy. We found potassium. It was the creep elements.
They discovered creep elements as expected.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Creepy. So creep, K potassium, uh, rare earth, the R E and then, uh, wait, phosphorus, right?
Yeah. I forget which one is which.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So there's, there's potassium and there's phosphorus both in there. Um, yeah, it's the standard set of elements. Nothing on the near side was a surprise and that's good.
That means their science matches the USSR science matches the U S science. As you would expect for the Northern hemisphere near side of the moon.
Fraser Cain:
I mean, the biggest thing that they learned was that the volcanism lasted longer on the moon. You're talking about the creep, the such K R E E P, um, but this mixture of, of elements and this was an indication of just the volcanism on the surface of, of the moon lasting longer. So there had been volcanism more recently on the surface of the moon than, than people had originally believed.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Now, wasn't that a China six though?
Fraser Cain:
That was five.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Okay. So they got it both from six. Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Both missions.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Six. I mean, six really helped us understand, um, more about why the near side and the far side are, are so different.
So five was this sort of technical demonstration that China can drop a probe down onto the surface of the moon, retrieve samples, load them up, take them to space.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And it wasn't any dropping. It was a precision landing.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Precision precision land on the surface of the moon, pick up samples, bring them to space, return them safely to the surface of the planet to put them in the hands of, of scientists. But China six was much more ambitious.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Just, I, I can't stress enough how impressed I am with their landing site. So they landed in the Apollo crater, which is one of the deepest places on the lunar surface. It's in the Southern hemisphere on the far side.
So they weren't flying completely blind as we would have been because they put a communication satellite there. They were, they were smart that way. Um, but like we're seeing OIG reports coming out, expressing concern about landing anywhere on the South pole with our planned landers.
We've been watching the CLPS missions, practice gymnastics, except for you, Firefly Aerospace, you did good.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. The rest of them fell over, crashed. Yeah.
Yeah. There's a lot of, of man, how many? Many.
Many. Yeah. There was an Indian failure.
There was two Japanese failures, three Japanese failures. And then like two NASA failures, three NASA failure. Yeah.
So it was like the moon, the, the galactic ghoul. Yeah. It eats things.
The great galactic ghoul has moved homes from Mars to the moon has set up shop and is now gobbling down spacecraft as quickly as we can send them. Only, as you said, Blue Ghost has successfully stuck the landing in, in a while. So yeah, it's been, uh, well, there was the second, the Chandrayaan three, the other Indians.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So yeah, India, India eventually succeeded.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Um, but.
Fraser Cain:
And Israeli, two Israeli. Yeah. Yeah.
Just gobble, gobble, gobble, yum, yum, yum.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Bear Sheath had a bad day.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Bear Sheath had a bad day. Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Poor tardigrades. Um, anyways, anyways, so they landed in the bottom of a crater on the far side in the Southern hemisphere, basically going, we're here. We did it.
They extended their arm. They scooped up a sample. They extended their drill.
They drilled up a sample. They were able to get two different kinds of basalts, uh, which is basically solidified lunar lava. Um, and, and they've discovered in looking at this, that there is the potassium.
There's the rare earth elements. There's the phosphorus, all of the creep stuff. And they were able to use a variety of radioactive elements to also measure the age.
And some of the basalt was as expected about 4.2 billion years old. But the other sample was less than 3 billion years old, which tells us that there was active volcanism for significantly longer than expected. Um, now with, with the Chang'e 5, we, Che'an 5?
I'm going to mispronounce. How do you say it again? I'm asking.
Fraser Cain:
Chang'e, Chang'e.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Chang'e 5.
Fraser Cain:
Chang'e 5 and Chang'e 6.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So with the Chang'e 5, uh, they, after three years released, uh, some grains of the sample to be, uh, researched by non-Chinese researchers. We have not gotten past that three-year date. Uh, so we're, we're still waiting for release of these particles for more experiments to be done.
Um, but from the, the research that they've had, and there was a very impressive paper in nature that came out, um, they found that volcanism persisted for over 1.4 billion years. Um, and, and that is, is new. So they, they were using the uranium to, uh, lead, um, ratio.
Um, and this is also the, the 4. billion year sample is the oldest sample so far returned. So they have this great dynamic of really old chunk, younger chunk, allowing us to span all the eons of volcanism that occurred.
Now, things that, that we're hoping for with this is one of the things that makes the South Aitken Basin, uh, region so exciting is when that was excavated, bedrock should have gotten flung up to the surface. So the, the two bits that have been discussed so far are both basalts. So the question starts to become, are they also going to find any bedrocks in the sample?
What else is going to be in there? So we have one paper so far, um, here is hoping for more papers that bring us more information on was there bedrock, uh, what all is, can we learn about the difference between the near side and the far side? We would love to be able to figure out, is this actually two different moonlets that combine to form one great big moon billions of years ago?
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, that's one of the, one of the sort of theories, right? Is that, you know, why is the far side of the moon so heavily cratered while the near side of the moon is, is more volcanic.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And the gravitational center of the moon is closer to the near side than the far side. They have very different densities.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. And one of these ideas, as you said, is that there was actually a second moon and it crashed into the far side of the moon.
And then that sort of added more depth to the, to that and push the center, as you said, more to the, the, the near side until the volcanism erupted from the near side of the, of the moon. But it is still definitely an ongoing mystery. You know, that was one of the big surprises when we got the first spacecraft had ever gone around the far side of the moon.
It was like a Soviet with a Luna 2. Anyway, one of the, the Soviet missions had, had taken pictures of the far side of the moon. And suddenly you saw this world look totally different than the, than the near side.
Um, and you know, one of the things that was interesting with, with Chang'e 6 was that they, there was an international collaboration. So there was, uh, instruments on board from other countries, Italy, uh, and with Chang'e 5 and with Chang'e 6, there's this sort of sharing of the, of the information with other nations. Uh, they have like a three-year headstart, I think.
And then they give the samples out to, to other nations as sort of part of their agreement as well. So, you know, people always ask, you know, what are the Chinese sharing this information out to, to other countries? And they, they definitely are, you know.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
There's a French instrument called Dorne, which I don't know why that like, why the name amuses me, but it was looking for outgassing from radon or outgassing of radon. Um, there's an Italian instrument, uh, that's doing laser retro reflector investigations.
Fraser Cain:
So you can like measure the distance to the, to the moon, although it's tough on the, on the far side, but yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Well, and, and then there's a Swedish negative ions on lunar surface, which is literally detecting negative ions reflected by the lunar surface.
Fraser Cain:
Yep. And then of course you mentioned it had the, the Jin Chan, uh, mini rover, which crawled away and then, and took some pictures and did some other, uh, work as well. So there are some more Chang'e missions in the works before we see humans.
So let's talk about seven and eight. Chang'e seven is going to go this, this year. Um, and it is going to be a lunar scout, uh, and they're going to try and land in Shackleton crater near the lunar South pole.
And they're going to have a, uh, a, like a hopping probe. That's really cool. That's going to sort of hop around on the surface of the, of the moon.
Uh, and then, uh, like bring a, bring a ton of, uh, of size to the surface of the moon. And then, uh, Chang'e eight is going to be one where they're going to be doing, um, and that's going to be in 2028 and that one they're going to be doing, uh, going to be testing out, well, they're looking at potential landing sites for, uh, upcoming human mission from the Chinese astronauts. And they're going to be doing a bunch of testing of some of their institute resource utilization technologies, you know, the ISRU.
So they've got a 3d printer on board this, this, uh, lander that's going to be shoveling in lunar regolith and then spitting out, uh, precision 3d elements from it that then you could build bricks. You could build, uh, you could build stuff that, um, you know, could be used in the construction of a, of a future habitat. And, and then, you know, that sets the stage for 2030, which is, which is when the, um, in theory, the, the human mission is going to be going to the moon and, you know, have you been following sort of their plans for the, for the human mission?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I know it's two astronauts. I know they're using their Long March 10.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. They've got a new version of the Long March, a heavy lift version of the Long March that they're working on. Uh, and it's going to be two separate rockets.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yes.
Fraser Cain:
One, which carries the crew and the service module, uh, and then one in the, in the command module, and then one that carries the lander and the rockets are going to meet up in lunar orbit. Yeah. And then the crew is going to transfer from their, from their capsule to the lander, go down to the surface of the moon, frolic about on the surface of the moon, fly back up to orbit with their ascent module, return to the capsule and then return to earth.
And, and this is very different from the, the Saturn five mission where they, you know, we think about it, they had the whole stack on the one rocket. And this is also extremely different from the plans from NASA, which is where you've got the crew on the space launch system. And then you're going to have the starship or blue origins.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Or mark two. I think it's very similar to blue origin, actually.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. In either case, there's going to be a lander that is going to have to be refueled in, in earth orbit and then flown out to lunar orbit that then the astronauts will arrive at dock with, get in, go down to the surface of the moon, come back up and then return. So it's, you know, you won't have all of the refueling that you will with the, with the American version, but it's also a much lighter weight process.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So it's, it's similar to what we were thinking could happen with a blue origin modified for use in 2028. So there's currently two different blue origin landers under development. One is let's just get her done.
And the other is the reusable future one. So I think the US get her done and the Chinese are fairly similar in, in concept.
Fraser Cain:
But I would not be surprised if the US in the end follows the same plan that the Chinese are going with, where you have a, you have the space launch system, carry the astronauts in the Orion capsule, and then you have a second rocket, probably a blue origin, maybe a Falcon heavy carrying a lander out to lunar orbit. And then they make the transition over and get into it and go down to the surface of the moon. Like that just seems much closer to what the, except no lander exists yet, but it's, it's in the works by both SpaceX and blue origin.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And they're looking to go to the South pole. And what's cool is with the, the lunar samples that they were able to get with mission six, they, they showed that the crater age dating scenario that we have on the near side appears to play out on the far side, where when you count the number of, of craters, you get an age and the ages match on both the near side and far side, which means we have the same cratering rate on both sides. But one sample from one place is not enough to verify that, but they are sticking to the South pole region, which is also where we're looking to find water in these ancient craters.
There was a paper that came out either last week or the week before showing that the longer crater has been around, the more water will have had time to accumulate inside of it. So these ancient craters really are where you want to go and they just found the oldest sample so far found. So go team, go Apollo crater.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, uh, so keep your eyes peeled. So we're going to have that the, the Chang'e 7 is going to launch later this year.
Chang'e 8 is going to launch in 2028 and then by 2030, and then the other big launch that's going to happen. And I know you don't think about the future. So allow me to give me a second here, which is that in 2028, they're going to launch their Mars sample return mission.
And so by probably 2031, we will have samples of Mars in the hands of scientists here on earth. Not the full, you know, not the nice samples taken by Perseverance, but still, and it's the same technology, right? You can see this same technology stack is being tested out on Mars.
And then what comes after a Mars sample return is probably a Mars human mission. So, uh, you're sort of watching the technology be tested stage after stage, step after step.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And one of the, it's, I mean, they're slow in study. They're massive financial investment. They're doing it right.
There, there was a NASA office of the inspector general report that came out today that expressed concern that just the EVA suits for the Artemis mission are in extreme jeopardy right now. Um, because NASA moved to using fixed cost contracts, which means they're saying, hey, company X, go innovate this thing that no one has ever done before.
Fraser Cain:
And eat the cost if you fail.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And eat the cost if you fail. And, and OIG is like, yeah, they're behind this problem, problem, red alert, danger, Will Robinson. And, and so we're in a position where we're asking commercial companies to innovate where NASA assists with the costs, but there's no profit scenario.
There's no lunar economy right now. And so until there can be a lunar economy that drives innovation in the name of future profits, why are companies going to worry about being on time, um, in their development? There's no motivation.
Fraser Cain:
So, yeah. And this has nothing to do with the Chinese Air Force missions.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
No, it's just sort of like, it just sets the playing field. Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. It's the false economy of the space race.
Fraser Cain:
All right. Thanks Pamela.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Thank you Fraser. And thank you everyone out there in our Patreon, who is so tolerant of my failure to know phonics or pronounce anything correctly as this episode has shown. And we would now like to thank all of you at the $5 a month level and higher.
Our show wouldn't be here without the amazing support of so many of you over on Patreon. I'm now going to try and thank you by name and I am really bad at phonics. So thank you.
And I'm sorry for what I'm about to do to your name. This week we would like to thank a pronounceable name, Abido Bear, Alex Rain, Andrew Allen, Andrew Stevenson, Arno DeGroot, Bebop Apocalypse, Benjamin Carrier, Buzzy Gowen, Buzz Parsec, Cammy Rassian, Christian Bearcolt, David Bogarty, Dr. Wo, Frederick Salvo, Frank Stewart, Frodo Tanenbach, Gerhard Schweitzer, Greg Davis, Greg Vild, Hannah Tackery, J. Alex Anderson, Jeff Wilson, Joe McTee, John Drake, John Herman, John Vays, J.P. Sullivan, Kim Barrow, Christian Golding, Labrat Matt, Les Howard, Lou Zeeland, Mark Schneider, Mike Haizu, Rhythm Chameleon, Robbie the Dog with the Dot, Robert Cordova, Robert Hundle, Ron Thorson, Rizzard with a Z, Sergio Sansevero, Sam Brooks and his mom, Shersom, Scott Briggs, Semyon Torfason, Sergei Monolov, The Big Squish Squash, The Brain, The Lonely Sandperson, Wanderer M101, Will Hamilton. Thank you all so very much.
Fraser Cain:
All right. Thanks, everyone. And we will see you next week.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Bye-bye, everyone.
Live Show
Even though humanity has returned samples from a fraction of the worlds in the solar system, the cosmos has delivered many more without us having to lift a finger. Meteorites. We have meteorites from the Moon, Vesta and even Mars! What have we learned about these rocks from other worlds? Space missions to other worlds cost millions to billions of dollars, and if we want to know exactly where space rock samples come from, we need to spend the big bucks for sample return. But, if it's good enough to know "this rock came from somewhere on that world," space offers an amazing delivery system in the form of meteorites. Come learn about the search for, identification, and science of meteorites from other worlds.
Show Notes* Meteorites as samples: Natural delivery from Moon, Mars, Vesta, asteroids * Impact ejection: Collisions launch rocks into space at escape velocity * Scientific value: Reveal early Solar System chemistry & planetary history * Limitations: Unknown exact origin, shock damage, Earth contamination * Identification methods: Spectroscopy, composition matching, trapped gases * Crater studies: Tektites, shock features, and local knowledge * Life debate: Controversy over possible biosignatures (ALH meteorite) * Sample return vs meteorites: Precision vs accessibility * Possible sources: Mars, Moon, Vesta, Phobos, maybe beyond * Interstellar material: Difficult to identify but potentially present * Key takeaway: Meteorites = accessible clues to planetary and cosmic history
TranscriptFraser Cain:
Astronomy Cast, Episode 790 Meteorites from Other Worlds. Welcome to Astronomy Cast, your weekly facts-based journey through the Cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I'm Fraser Keane, I'm the publisher of Universe Today.
With me as always is Dr. Pamela Gay, a senior scientist for the Planetary Science Institute and the director of CosmoQuest. Hello, Pamela.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Hello, Fraser. I have a new favourite moment in Rule Breaking. Can I share it?
Yes. So, Astronaut Commander Reed from the Artemis II Integrity Capsule was supposed to leave RISE, the little round plushie that they had as a zero-g indicator. He was supposed to leave it on board Integrity as it floated in the ocean, hopefully to be rescued, and he couldn't do it.
He couldn't leave behind RISE. So he stole it.
Fraser Cain:
You don't leave a crew member behind. Right.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Snuck it out. So RISE now is Commander Reed's, and he's been just like kind of carrying it around in lots of different... It is my favourite moment.
Fraser Cain:
Isn't it supposed to end up at a school, though, at some point? Like it's going to end up with some... I forget how...
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I don't know. I just know it wasn't left behind on the capsule, and there are so many adorable photos. And yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Man, that mission was so great. I was just transported to a younger version of me watching sort of the one that actually felt most significant to me was the Mars Pathfinder Sojourner mission. That was the one that I was really just glued to the live streams, watching every moment.
And this brought me back to that world, watching all of these key moments, even just sort of switching back to see the live stream, the quiet view of the porthole of the Orion capsule to see either the Moon or the Earth. It was absolutely incredible. And it just shows us the best of what humanity can do.
And obviously, there are details about the $4 billion that it cost to launch these things, the delays in the launch, the potential competition from reasonable rocket companies and so on and so forth. But still, this was just... Humanity went farther than humanity has ever gone, and I was there for it, and it was incredible.
I think we should do an episode about Artemis 2 when we have a little bandwidth. Even though humanity has returned samples from a fraction of the worlds in the solar system, the cosmos has delivered many more without us having to lift a finger. Meteorites.
We have meteorites from the Moon, Vesta, and even Mars. What have we learned about these rocks from other worlds? Meteorites.
Meteorites. Which worlds do we have meteorites from that have fallen down here on Earth?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Mars, the Moon, Vesta series, a whole bunch of the other asteroids, but they come in families, which makes it a whole lot harder to say exactly which one they came from.
Fraser Cain:
Right. They came from this family. Who knows if it was...
Which of the specific rocks?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I'm pretty sure we don't have any from Venus, but...
Fraser Cain:
No, we don't.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Okay. You often prove me wrong, so I have learned to add caveats.
Fraser Cain:
That would be wise, yeah. No. From what I understand, there are none from Mercury, none from Venus.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
The energy from Mercury is not realistic, and Venus's atmosphere is just super thick.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Nothing's getting out of either of those. Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. And that is incredible.
So how do they get here?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Well, when a rock hits a rock, transfer of momentum is expletive. So what ends up happening, and this is part of my favorite caption that has ever existed in a print magazine. There is this amazing caption that I believe based on the formatting of the page that I found on Reddit, came from Scientific American.
I've not been able to find the actual article. The caption basically reads that when the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs struck Earth, the shock wave flung at escape velocities, dirt, trees, and dinosaurs. And...
Fraser Cain:
What a way to go.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. Yeah. So the first life forms to leave the planet Earth were very dead dinosaurs.
Fraser Cain:
Right.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
But...
Fraser Cain:
I mean, probably very dead.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Many other things.
Fraser Cain:
Many other things. Yeah. When you think about the giant impacts that have happened in the history of planet Earth, there was some early first astronaut.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So when space rock comes down, whether it be something tiny that just becomes a meteorite or something bigger where you just keep calling it an asteroid, when it collides, that kinetic energy from its motion ends up getting translated into heat, into noise, into compression waves moving through the ground. And that energy excavates the crater, melts a lot of stuff, flings boulders in all directions as it does its excavating. And some of those things that it flings are going to be going at escape velocities from whatever world is getting hit.
And those excavated chunks of world are then on their own orbits that could include a trajectory that heads them straight towards us. And this leads to all sorts of mixing of early solar system substances back when collisions were much more common between the early forming worlds that, well, Venus, Earth, and Mars were all settling into habitability at about the same point before Mars decided to become too cold and Venus decided to become way too hot.
Fraser Cain:
So let's talk about some of the samples that have been found and some of the most interesting ones. And I mean, I think, I mean, this is not the same as a meteorite that is out in space. This is not the same as us retrieving a sample from an asteroid or from a comet.
When you think about, say, Hayabusa, Hayabusa 2, Cyrus Rex, they pulled a chunk, they pulled material off of these objects. And these were in a pristine state. I mean, obviously they're rubble pile asteroids, they've gone through, they've seen some things, but they haven't sort of experienced the same kind of shock and damage that has happened from something that was actually scoured out of another planet.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. We have three scientific problems with donated samples from other worlds. One is we don't know exactly where on that other world it came from.
Fraser Cain:
But even, well, so hold on, I was going to bring that up, but actually they're starting to get a sense of where some of those samples came from.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
For some worlds, but we can't consistently do it.
Fraser Cain:
The Mars ones, they're getting a sense based on the kind of, I mean, we know so much about the rock on Mars that we can guess where those samples might've come from roughly.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
But we can't do the kinds of things that we do with like collected lunar rocks where we take them into a lab, we measure exactly how old they are, and then we can use them to calibrate our understanding of how old different surfaces on the moon are. We can't do that.
Fraser Cain:
No. And then like think about what's happening with Perseverance as it is going across the landscape of Mars, looking for the perfect rock and then drilling a sample, holding it closely inside its sample container, moving on. Like that is precision in what you get as opposed to what you get with just random rocks being hurled at the planet.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Right, right.
Fraser Cain:
So that's the first challenge. You don't know where they came from.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Right. So first challenge is you don't know where they came from. Second challenge is they're getting altered by the space environment a whole lot.
So there was whatever excavated them was a high energy event. They traveled through space, which causes surface weathering. And then they went through our atmosphere, which causes its own form of challenge as it gets heated up and then smashes into whatever it smashes into.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. And that's probably not the worst part of the contamination. The worst part is that they then sit on the surface of the earth for an unknown amount of time being infested by our local life forms.
And that one of these meteorites can be hidden for hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of years.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Hundreds of thousands is pushing it because we do get them from places like deserts and ice flows and our planet has had weather cycles.
Fraser Cain:
Right. But the point being that that's plenty of time for occupation to occur. Yeah.
I mean, what probably happens is that the various weathering process that we have on the earth dismantle the meteorites within that timeframe. So it's the ones that we get to them before they're completely faded away. But still we can do science.
What kind of science can we do with these samples?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So there's the straightforward, which is you take them into a lab, you cut them into very thin slices and you study what is the stuff inside them. What is the components? And this is useful for two different reasons.
One is we can also shine light at them and reflect the light off and match them to other worlds. This is actually how we figure out what meteorite came from, where, when it comes to the asteroids is we know the asteroids really well in reflected sunlight. You take a space rock, take it into your lab, reflect sunlight, sun, light off of it and see what it matches.
And that's its parent body. And then, because we don't have samples of Vesta, we don't have samples of Ceres, we don't have samples of like all but just the tiniest handful of asteroids. So then we take them apart and look at them to measure the various mineral structures, to measure the various, how does all of this stuff come together and then shred them completely in a mass spectrometer to get at the atom by atom understanding.
And some of the thin cuts that they do through these and then shine light through look like the most amazingly chaotic stained glass. So our solar system is out there creating chaotic stained glass and sending it our way.
Fraser Cain:
But I think one of the most exciting things is that there is gas trapped within these rocks.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yes, I have to admit that is one of the things I am, I am weirdly just less interested in. But we have found both liquid and gas trapped inside the crystalline structure of various minerals. It turns out things like diamonds in particular are very good at holding stuff in their inclusions.
So when we get particularly lucky, we're not looking for amber containing animals, we're looking for minerals containing gas, containing liquid, containing a moment in the history of another world.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, again, this is just incredible when you think about this, that a giant asteroid smashed into Mars, scoured out material, sent it into orbit. These rocks have been floating around in the solar system.
And then some part portion of them found their way to the Earth's atmosphere, enter the atmosphere, reached the ground, a scientist found it, and then sliced it open. And there were bits, there were tiny bits of trapped Mars atmosphere in that meteorite that you can then use to study the atmosphere of Mars at the time that the space rock was hurled into space. What have we learned, do you think, about being able to study these samples from other worlds?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
One of the first things we've learned is what makes someone a scientist is when they find something cool, they report it. Because so many of the meteorites that have been found that weren't in Antarctica where we send groups of humans who have been trained to find meteorites to go find meteorites. A lot of the other ones that have been found are like someone's back pasture, someone's back 40.
So farmers are one of the great sources of meteorites. Yeah, all over the world, people find meteorites and when we're lucky, they report what they found and they share and we get to go get samples. We have learned that there are a whole lot of unique rocks that allow us to look at things and go, this is actually a crater right here.
Because when the impactor is big enough, it creates tektites, which are melty bits of the rock that was already there that now become new rocks. And it creates these shocked rocks where you can actually look at them and see through, they're called shock cones, go figure, we're not exciting in how we name things. So there's all these local ways geology gets wrecked when big things hit and it changes the landscape.
And there's this one really funny case of a winery in France that was creating meteorite wine. And they were claiming that their vineyard, which is in this cool circular indentation, was a meteorite crater and everyone was like, ha, ha, ha. And it turned out that some geologists who were traveling, who of course went because it was funny, were like, oh, oh, wait, this might be a crater.
And so they went back and it was actually a crater. And I'm super sad because you can't get this wine in the United States and I really want a bottle. So folks in France, I really want a bottle of this wine.
And so we have learned that we need to listen to the locals. We need to listen to their stories. We need to listen to like oral traditions are a great way to figure out where craters formed in the past at various points in history.
And then when we pick up these rocks, we also learn to be slightly afraid because they could be carrying stuff from a point in time where life existed on other worlds than this.
Fraser Cain:
Right. And I think we need to talk about one of the most controversial rocks found from another planet, Allen Hills. So this is going to be a moment that is kind of seared into everybody's memory.
And this happened at roughly the same time that I was enthusiastic about watching the Mars Pathfinder mission complete its various operations. Shortly after that, we saw the announcement of life on Mars. Thanks to the Allen Hills meteorite.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. And back in 1984, this meteorite was found on Allen Hill in Antarctica. And it takes a while for them to get through all the different meteorites they find and do research on them.
And this particular one, they found it, they sorted it. And then Roberta Skor, who's the lab manager at Johnson Space Center, she was the one who found it. And it was claimed to be the oldest Martian meteorite that had been found to be 4 billion years old.
And when folks started studying it, one of the things that the research team did was they cut it, they gold plated it, they put it through an electron scanning microscope. So the gold plating was to make the electron scanning microscope work better. And when they looked at the images that came out of the electron scanning microscope, they saw what looked like little tiny nanobacteria nodules that were similar to what had been studied at places like Yellowstone.
And the claim was made that life had been found in the Allen Hills meteorite. Now this was super controversial for a number of different reasons. One was it turns out if you're not like the absolute nicest person on the entire planet, people are going to show more skepticism to your research.
And when we were all going to see the talks on this, the person presenting, whose name I'm not going to name, would show the meteorite, would then show pictures of his grad students in skimpy clothes next to where they collected the nanobacteria from field sites. And that didn't sit well with many of us. And so there's that underlying, blech, that just like kind of went into how you looked at the research.
And then there was like the knowledge that if you screw up your gold plating, you get artifacts that look exactly like what they were saying was nanobacteria. And then there's like the fact that just sometimes minerals do stuff. And they haven't really allowed the experiment to be replicated.
So you have this situation where no other means of exploration have been able to replicate what they found. Other work done on the same meteor didn't find indications of life. And there was just kind of this overall, blech, involved in the research.
So, yeah, they might have found something. But until it gets found in a more credible way, and likely until it's presented by someone that doesn't leave all of us feeling slightly creepy, it's life hasn't been discovered.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. And I mean, I think you've got to sort of compare this to what happened with, say, the Hayabusa and the OSIRIS-REx mission. You had these samples returned.
They were sent out around the world to dozens of teams with some of the world's best labs. And they've been trickling back their information, confirming each other's discoveries, finding all these amino acids and all of this sort of measuring the amount of water in these samples, and determining a lot of really interesting things about the early history of the solar system. And that this is, you know, partly that when a rock from space lands on Earth, it is just one rock.
And then it's up to the team who claims it to work on it to sort of decide how the information is sort of parceled out. And that if you have a really bombastic discovery, it is tricky to then put yourself to that level of scrutiny. And yet that's what science demands.
That's how science works. As opposed to this sort of top-down, hey, we've got all these samples, here you go everybody, get back to some of what you found. And then they're kind of double-checking each other.
So it's, yeah, it's, unfortunately, I mean, we have a lot of examples of this. We have the Viking, we have the Allen Hills meteorite, we have the discovery of phosphine in Venus, we have the detection of methane on Mars, we have Mono Lake, yeah, we have all these times where life was found, and yet it just didn't hold up to scrutiny. The wow signal, like it just, it goes on and on and on.
The discovery of satellites in orbit around the Earth before the first artificial satellites were launched.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
The Japanese UFO on an archaeological thing, yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Boyajian's sort of dust ring, like it goes on and on and on. And it just shows that when the potential consequences of the discovery are big, then the level of rigor and the amount of sort of ego setting aside needs to be done is astronomical. And few are up to that task.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And you really need to have no clear alternative answers because Occam's Razor is a thing. And when you can say, yeah, but if you gold-plated it not perfectly, that's exactly what it looks like. That is such an easy explanation for what they saw, and it's not like you can un-gold-plate the meteorite.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Yeah. So let's talk about kind of hypothetical meteorites.
Yes. Could there be meteorites from Mercury, Venus, Phobos, Io here on Earth somewhere?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Phobos, yes, that's easy. Io, I mean, it could happen, but it's going to take a whole lot. And the idea of something being big enough, having come off of Io, traveled this way and made it through our atmosphere, my brain is going, but it's a gooey world.
I mean, it's not all gooey, but that's where my brain went is it's gooey. Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
I mean, it's covered in rock.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
You hit it with an asteroid, it's going to blow up rocky chunks into space. They're not going to remain lava.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. You just have to hit it really, really hard because of Jupiter's gravity.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. You have to escape Jupiter.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. You have to escape Jupiter's gravity, which means that you have to somehow dig deep enough to get a whole lot of boulders sent out at a whole lot of velocity. So, Io is giant question mark of could it happen?
Well, a lot of things can happen, but I put the probability on that one super low. Venus.
Fraser Cain:
What about? Oh, Venus.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Okay. Yeah. Venus depends on when.
So, Venus hasn't always had the atmosphere it currently has. And so, if you hit it really, really hard when it didn't have that super thick atmosphere, but had already solidified and before it got its prior atmosphere flung off, yes. So, I mean, it's always had an atmosphere.
It just hasn't always had its current atmosphere.
Fraser Cain:
But it is tricky to climb up that gravitational well.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
But if you can fling dinosaurs that escape velocity off of the planet Earth.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. But you not only have to fling them off of a world that is as much as.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
You have to escape the sun.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. You have to escape the sun.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
That is the challenge. You have to get, you have to climb, like people always sort of imagine Venus in this sort of, or these worlds in this sort of perfect balance and you just drift away from one to the other. But no, the sun is this giant gravitational well.
It is at the bottom of this gravitational well. Mercury has partially climbed out of this gravitational well. Venus is a little better and Earth is a little higher.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
But to go from Venus up to Earth, it literally is up to you. You've got to climb a mountain and that is a challenge. Of course, it's also difficult to climb down the mountain.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Right.
Fraser Cain:
Both are challenges.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And this is where you have to be looking for things that are on elliptical orbits that intersect both Venus's orbit and Earth's orbit because that is easier to accomplish. And as always, your friendly reminder that it is far easier to yeet things out of the solar system than to yeet them into the sun.
Fraser Cain:
Right. What about an interstellar object?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Oh, yeah. I'm sure we have interstellar objects on our world. Yeah.
We just don't have a reflection spectrum to match them to. So it's probably like unlabeled mystery rock.
Fraser Cain:
Right. But you can imagine someone doing, say, a sample of it, looking for the radioactive decay and then going, wait a minute, this sample is 8 billion years old. Right.
This rock is 8 billion years old. Like in theory that it's never been found. Right.
All of the meteorites ever been tested have always been exactly the same age, the age of the solar system. But out there somewhere, there is a meteorite that will, when you test it. Now, they've found pre-solar grains in meteorites that are older than the solar system.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
But those are grains.
Fraser Cain:
Grains. Not full meteorites. And yet you think, you know, we have, we've seen three interstellar objects passing through the solar system.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Models show there should be like 6 to 12 a year.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. And there should be probably 10,000 plus just going through the solar system at any one time. And so at some point in the past, an interstellar object has struck the earth and it's there somewhere on the planet for the finding.
Yeah. And then can you imagine what we could learn studying a rock that came from another planet in the galaxy?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
The frustration of not knowing its provenance is the great frustration.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah.Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, you know, it's made of different stuff.
I mean, it would still be made of the same kinds of material. But the ratios will be different. Slightly different ratios.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's older.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Right.
Fraser Cain:
Be like, oh, it formed a billion years ago. But we don't know where. Like maybe you could look at the chemistry of stars out there and find one that it's We can't even find our own siblings.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. We orbit the center of the galaxy, I think every 250 million years.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. And so a lot of potential siblings of the sun have been found.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Right. But we can'tprove it because we've scattered to the four directions, inward, outward, forward and back. Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. But that'll be that'll be incredible if there's some time like people have proposed that the trajectories of certain meteorites coming in, hit the atmosphere, that they were on an interstellar trajectory.
There was a search by Avi Loeb and others to try and find a meteorite, but the results were inconclusive. So we are still waiting for that. And then probably the best thing is to just chase down an interstellar object and sample it directly and bring a piece home.
That will be the greatest accomplishment of humanity, I think, is to be able to chase down.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And you just did a video on that. Have I? You just did a video on chasing down meteorites.
Fraser Cain:
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, those are ones in the Earth's atmosphere.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Okay. That's true.
Fraser Cain:
That's true.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So the meteor, meteorite, meteoroid set of words.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Just put all of this into your heads. Meteoroids, asteroids are space rocks still in space. Meteor is while they're going through the atmosphere.
Meteorite is once you've picked them up because minerals and an ite. Yeah. So these words are evil.
I just call them space rocks.
Fraser Cain:
Yes. And people love to give you a hard time if you... Confuse them.
...don't get it perfectly right. But I think there's a lot of edge cases where you kind of wonder, you know, does a meteor hit the moon?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
A meteoroid hits the moon.
Fraser Cain:
Yes. But what if it's a kilometer across?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Then it's an asteroid.
Fraser Cain:
It's not a meteoroid. I think, you know, I think meteors can hit the moon.
I think, you know, I think meteors can hit the moon. I think if they're on a collision course with the world, that that's when they become a meteor, in my opinion. But anyway, I think we've wrapped up this topic.
We're now starting to rabbit hole. So thanks, Pamela.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Thank you, Fraser. And thank you so much to all of you out there. Being able to continue doing science communications in this day and age where we're seeing NASA literally cancel the entire office of science communications.
It is an honor and a pleasure. This week, I would like to thank our patrons over on patreon.com slash astronomycast, who allow us to have Rich, Ali and others, Aviva, making sure we don't sound terrible. This week, we are pleased to thank the following people whose names I shall now mangle.
Our show wouldn't be here without the wonderful support of so many of you over on patreon.com slash astronomycast. This week, I'm going to thank you the best way I have, which is by probably mispronouncing your name. Thank you so much to Antisor, ArcticFox, AstroSets, Benjamin Mueller, Bob Zatzke, BoogieNut, Breznik, Brian Kilby, Cody Rose, Conrad Holling, Daniel Schechter, David, David Gates, David Green, Diane Philippon, G.
Caleb Sexton, Galactic President Scooper McScoopsalot, Glenn Phelps, Gold, Jared Heal, Janelle, Jason Kwong, Jeremy Kerwin, Jim Schooler, John M, Jordan Turner, Laura Kettleson, Lee Harbourn, Lana Spencer, Marco Irrasi, Matt Rucker, Michelle Purcell, Michelle Wichman, Nala, Nate Detweiler, Older, Patricia Hope, Paul D. Disney, Randall, Richard Drumm, Robert Palasma, Sachi Takaba, Sandra Stantz, Sean Matz, Siggy Kemmler, Slug, TC Starboy, Thomas Gutzeta, Tiffany Rogers, Timeroid Iroh, Tricor, Tricia McKinney, and Vettely. Thank you all so very much.
And I'm so sorry for my failure to pronounce things.
Fraser Cain:
All right. Thanks, everyone. We'll see you next week.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Bye-bye, everyone.
Live Show
Your spacecraft has reached the end of its mission. You’ve done everything you can to keep it operational, but now it’s time to say goodbye. How do space agencies deal with spacecraft to shut them down gracefully, protect future missions and life on other worlds. So, the time has come to see your mission across the Rainbow Bridge. How exactly do you say goodbye? Let’s discuss.
Show Notes Why Missions End * End-of-Life (EOL) Planning * Risks & Externalities * Tech & Policy Outlook * Underinvestment in EOL solutions—needs urgency. * Space 101 Nuggets * What’s Ahead TranscriptFraser Cain:* AstronomyCast, Episode 766 How Spacecraft End. Welcome to AstronomyCast, your weekly facts-based journey through the Cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I’m Fraser Cain, I’m the Publisher of Universe Today.
With me as always is Dr. Pamela Gay, a Senior Scientist for the Planetary Science Institute and the Director of CosmoQuest. Hey Pamela, how are you doing?
Dr. Pamela Gay: I am doing well. I have to point out for the audience, for those who don’t know because they only listen to the podcast, I come up with the initial graphics and name of it, and then you give it a much more SEO friendly, but this is one of those episodes where I’m super proud my title was End of Life Planning for your spacecraft. Yours more SEO friendly, mine amused me more, and I just need to share, you are the master of titles.
I am the person who writes hokey titles that amuse me.
Fraser Cain: Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is always a tension between us, and people wonder what is the core tension between Fraser and Pamela as a production duo here, is that I want the episodes to be very no-nonsense, as a standalone and different from the other stuff that we do, because both of us are doing much more whimsical, news-based, current events. That’s our bread and butter, and so this is something that is timeless, we’ll be here forever.
The episode about Mercury, it’s called Mercury, and so often what will happen is I will pitch you a whole bunch of subjects, and mine are very much gravitational lensing, spiral galaxies, and you will be on the deepness of thought regarding the- I don’t do that, I do usually plays on words. Yes, you are very punny, you are very lyrical in the way you describe these, and for me, like normally, yeah, I’m all over that, that sounds great, those are the kinds of titles that I would do, but for Astronomy Cast, it needs to be this archive of just very straightforward, easily accessible things. So this is a creative tension, and sometimes I win, sometimes you win, mostly neither of us care enough to make a big stink about it.
Your spacecraft has reached the end of its mission. You’ve done everything you can to keep it operational, but now it’s time to say goodbye. How do space agencies deal with spacecraft to shut them down gracefully, protect future missions and life on other worlds?
So what led to your thinking about this episode, because this topic came from you.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So basically, we first did, okay, so you need to get a launch license, then we looked at rockets versus the environment, and I was like, I’m out of creativity, is there anything else that naturally follows on that cycle? Well, once they’re born, they have to die, and that’s literally where this came from, was now that we’ve launched them, what do we do with them?
Fraser Cain: But there was a really dramatic mission end that happened earlier this year with the Gaia mission, and we got this sort of blow by blow explanation of what was going on, and I think a lot of people were quite puzzled by the extremes that the European Space Agency was going to, to shut down the Gaia mission. It wasn’t just, all right, we’re just going to leave it there, turn off the switches, hopefully we’ll come back in a couple of years and maybe somebody will be able to get Gaia going again, who knows?
Dr. Pamela Gay: No, no, no.
Fraser Cain: They went scorched earth on Gaia.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah, they yeeted it into a heliocentric orbit.
Fraser Cain: And dismantled its memory block by block, overwriting it with garbage to make sure.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Now that I’m not sure they had to do, but.
Fraser Cain: Yeah, well, so the rationale for that was that they didn’t want this spacecraft to accidentally come back online and to interfere with any other missions that were going on. They wanted to not only be non-functional propellant-wise, power-wise, et cetera, because it still had lots of power, right? It just didn’t have the propellant.
And so they had to, it was going to, and it was built to be super redundant, really try hard to connect with earth-based satellite. It was really going to keep trying to do its mission. And so they had to go in and they had to rewrite its memory block by block, filling it with, I think the names of everybody on the team.
Imagine you just go through your memory of some software application you’ve worked on, replacing it block by block on the hard drive with the names of people. It is not going to be a functional piece of software by the time you’re done with it.
Dr. Pamela Gay: No.
Fraser Cain: Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: No. No. And, and, and this really, when you think about how hardcore that is, like in my universe, sure.
You just like overwrite whatever the, the equivalent of the BIOS part of the memory is. But no, they did the whole darn thing.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. They did the whole thing. They made sure that there is no possible way that that spacecraft can lurch from the grave and interfere and that their concern about it messing up comms, providing a false signal was just so extreme that they went to this level of finality for the mission.
And, and this is the kind of thinking, like I wanted to start with this very dramatic example because this is the kind of headspace that mission planners are in. And I think that for a lot of people that is going to feel very surprising that the expectation is you’ve already spent all this money, all this time, all this expenditure to get this thing out into space. Why won’t they just leave it?
And then maybe some future generation could come along and use it and continue to bring it back operationally. So we’ll get to all of that. But let’s sort of just talk about this limited lifespan of satellites and spacecraft.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So we, we have two major things that, that bring spacecraft to a natural end, depending on how they’ve been constructed. One is you run out of propulsion, so you’re no longer able to change your orbit, lift your orbit, do whatever to your orbit. Now there are some spacecraft, they put them where they want them.
They are fine where they are. Let’s just leave them there. And even with those, you start to then run into the risk of, okay, so propulsion isn’t necessarily my problem, but they could hit something.
They could land on some buddy. They could land someplace that doesn’t currently have some buddies and put some buddies there. There, there are a whole variety of ways that your no longer fully functional mission could cause a very bad day for a planet where the earth is a planet or other spacecraft that are out there trying to live their best life.
Fraser Cain: And we see this happening about once a year where someone didn’t take the end of life for their spacecraft or their space station very seriously. And it’s going to come back down at a random location, almost certainly into the Pacific Ocean, but maybe just maybe into a populated center.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And we’ve also started to see a whole lot of near misses where they’ve had to radically move spacecraft. And at some point, as the number of spacecrafts continues to grow exponentially, it’s going to hit the point where we don’t just have near misses. We have actual collisions that create more massive debris clouds than anyone really wants to deal with.
Fraser Cain: Right. So we’ve got the situation like in low earth orbit, these things could potentially come back down to earth in random locations, even leaving them in low earth orbit. They’re going to be, it’s a very dense environment, relatively speaking, you know, still space, you know, it’s wide open, but still satellites do crash into each other and that if you leave your satellite, it’s going to potentially crash into others and you’re going to get more debris.
The debris is going to crash into more debris. You’ve got a problem. And then the issue that we mentioned with Gaia is that they can also be a, a communications hazard that they’re going to be, you know, there’s a limited amount of bandwidth.
You’ve got a guy over there screaming, give me a job. Let me give you something to do. I’m over here.
I mean, who among us? Yeah. I haven’t had to deal with that situation, but there’s one more issue with in the outer solar system.
We saw this with the Galileo mission and the Cassini mission. What’s that about?
Dr. Pamela Gay: And this is the concern of the spreading somebodies where the somebodies are microbes, bacteria, and other life forms that get carried out there from the planet earth. And we are learning more and more about worlds in the outer solar system that either in the past or continue to have sub ice oceans. And there is potentially transfer of materials through cracks, through processing from the surface down into those seas.
And we don’t want our life to potentially destroy life somewhere else or just make it so that we’re not sure if what we’re eventually finding came from us or got there on its own.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. I always use this example, right? We send the first life mission to Enceladus and they’re like, cyanobacteria, weird.
And then they, you know, they start to Europe and cyanobacteria, weird. And they were on Mars. Cyanobacteria, weird.
Cyanobacteria is everywhere. It’s all related. It’s all just from earth because cyanobacteria just loves an opportunity to take over.
All right. So we talked about sort of the reasons why spacecraft are that some level of intelligence needs to go into what you do with your spacecraft at the end. You don’t just walk away from your spacecraft.
You got to do something with it. So what do they do?
Dr. Pamela Gay: So there, there are a number of different ways to dispose of your spacecraft. And, and, uh, there’s actually international guidelines that when you have something in orbit around the earth, uh, per UN guidance, they make arrangements with different other organizations. Uh, 25 years after your mission is over, your spacecraft should be put somewhere safe.
The FAA has upgraded that now that we have so many more things out there to five years, you have five years to dispose of your spacecraft people. And so what they’re looking at is let’s put solar sails on it. Let’s put drag systems on it.
Let’s do something with those low earth orbit satellites that allow us to make sure with certainty that atmospheric drag is able to deorbit them with things that are further out. Uh, we lift them up into higher orbits or as they did with Gaia, send them on a journey round the sun. And remember it is energetically easier to remove something from the solar system than to crash it into the sun.
So don’t ever try and crash anything into the sun unless you’re trying to study the sun.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Uh, yeah, I think, I think it’s really important to go over this because we get this question all the time, which is like, why don’t they just crash spacecraft into the sun? Um, and you, and you gotta know, like if you ever say like, why don’t they just, then you know already there’s a really good reason why they don’t just, you just, you just don’t know the why yet.
And that is because the sun is actually the most difficult place to reach in the entire solar system that the earth is orbiting around the sun at 30 kilometers per second. And the only way to make your material actually crash into the sun is to cancel out that 30 kilometers per second of orbital momentum. Thirty kilometers per second is faster than any spacecraft has ever been launched from earth.
It would require propulsion systems that are unyet dreamed of. We literally cannot make a spacecraft crash into the sun. And I defy you, play Kerbal Space Program, make a spacecraft go into the sun.
You will realize how difficult and challenging a problem this is only through multiple flybys of Mercury and Venus slingshot maneuvers. Can you finally get something into the sun that things don’t drift off into the sun in space? We’re at the bottom of a mountain and to get up to the lunar orbit, you have to climb a mountain to get from earth orbit to the sun.
You have to climb a different mountain or backwards. I don’t know. Anyway, that moving spacecraft dramatically far away from where they currently are requires expenditures of propulsion that is way beyond what it took to even just launch the spacecraft in the first place.
So you got to deal with what you got.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. Momentum is the law. It is going to be conserved.
You have to transfer it somewhere.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. So you mentioned this idea that they put it somewhere. Can you describe these sort of parking orbits or sort of what’s the term they’ve got them for the ones at?
Graveyard orbits. Yeah. Graveyard orbits.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. So with geostationary satellites, there is a set altitude where when you’re at that distance from the earth and in a circular orbit, key is circular orbit, you go around and around the world every 24 hours, which means that if you’re planted directly over the equator, you stay over the exact same place in orbit. If you are north or south tilted, you would clearly be both north and south tilted depending on where you are in the orbit.
You’re going to go up and down a single line of longitude and geostationary orbits are super useful for communication, super useful for weather satellites. And while it is a huge orbit because it’s so far away from the earth, there’s still squabbling over space. And so when something is no longer in use, they boost it to a higher orbit.
The idea being it’s in a higher orbit, it’s now, it’s going to get out of sync with staying over the same place. It’s going to actually be orbiting in more than 24 hours at that point, but atmospheric drag is not going to pull it back down to the earth because higher, safer, less stuff. And so they just stick stuff in parking orbits with the idea that maybe someday someone will go out with their junk collector, the walleys of the future in orbit, and start scooping these missions up to do whatever we decide to do with them in the future.
That works for things in geostationary orbit. Gaia was out in a Lagrange point and that is another place that has the potential to get super crowded because we really like to put things there. Now luckily the Lagrange points are only semi-stable.
It doesn’t take very much energy to get yourself out of this balancing point where the gravity of the sun, the gravity of the earth keeps you balanced so that the earth and that Lagrange point go around the sun at the same period. It’s different rates, you’re at different distances from the sun. So if you’re on the inner Lagrange point, you’re going to be going slower to keep pace with the earth.
If you’re further out, you’re going to be going faster. But it’s really easy to remove yourself from those semi-stable points. And as Gaia did, just put yourself into your own solitary orbit around the sun that allows the earth and your dead self to meet every few months, I guess.
Fraser Cain: But it’s more than that, it’s that you have to expend energy to remain at the Lagrange It’s true, yeah. So you just stop, and this works well, if you no longer have propulsion, then you’re no longer able to remain at the Lagrange point, you are going to naturally drift. And then if you do have a little bit of propulsion left, you can sort of decide where you’re going to drift.
Dr. Pamela Gay: But it’s self-cleaning. They really want you to remove yourself though. So the issue with allowing things to yeet themselves, I just love that word by the way, is you don’t know what you’re going to hit on the way out if you’re not steering.
And this is the difference between you and I both sledded as kids, and some sleds you can steer because they have little blades on them, and others you just sort of lean and hope. And a spacecraft doesn’t even have the ability to lean and hope as it allows either the atmosphere or just instability to move it over time. So the idea is you have a controlled exit from that orbit you should no longer stay in within five years of end of mission.
And while you’re still under control, we don’t want any out of control spacecraft if we can help it. They expect this to only be a 90% success rate. It’s spacecraft.
Space is hard. But the goal is 90% within five years for US spacecraft. The rest of the world is more like, we’ll give it 25.
That’s where we are.
Fraser Cain: So we’ve talked about how you sort of deal with spacecraft here around Earth. But we saw a very interesting decision made for Galileo and Cassini. So how did that operate?
Dr. Pamela Gay: So with Cassini is referred to as the grand finale. This was back in 2017. NASA made this a massive press event.
They actually asked me to delay launch of a bunch of my programs because they didn’t want my little tiny programs to potentially distract from Cassini’s attention. Cassini was a flagship mission that gathered gigabytes and gigabytes of data at a time when gigabytes were new and phenomenally large before we entered the terabyte and petabyte world of today. And the thing about this grand finale was this was a mission that had been extended such that they were able to capture the entirety of seasons of Saturn as it went around the sun.
And we didn’t know that would be something we could do. They were able to evolve the orbit to get closer and closer to the surface and study the clouds in detail. But at the Saturn system, you have Titan, which is a methane-ethane world that we know because of Cassini has lakes and deltas.
The Huygens probe was able to catch amazing imagery of this. And this is all the stuff of life. These are carbon molecules.
And with so many organics at Titan and the recognition that the chemistry of its atmosphere is out of equilibrium in ways that require either active geological processes, active biological processes, or both, both is allowed, Titan is a world we don’t want to mess with. We want to allow it to be its special little amazing self, even though we already dropped Huygens on it. So we didn’t want to crash there.
We know that Enceladus is another one of these ocean worlds with its tiger stripes. We didn’t want to mess with things there. And so that meant we had to dispose of our spacecraft somewhere where we weren’t worried about Earth life being compatible.
And the atmosphere of Saturn and plunging through it to the high density, extreme temperatures of going through that atmosphere seemed like a really good way to dispose of a spacecraft while not risking contamination. So that is exactly what they did back in 2017.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. And I think, you know, that again, seems kind of weird to people, you know, like, why are you keeping it around? And it’s just that you can’t predict the future chaotic movements of the spacecraft as they continue to orbit around the planets and their moons.
That crashing into one of those moons is kind of inevitable. If you run the math into the future, and so, you know, it may take thousands of years, tens of thousands of years, but eventually it’s probably going to crash into one of the moons or crash into Jupiter or get into weird orbits through body interactions. So as we kind of get close to closing out this episode, I think it’s important to say that these ideas about end of life, you sort of mentioned it briefly that, you know, people are looking at putting drag shoots, putting various other methods of slowing spacecraft down and that this is actually a very under-invested, like people aren’t taking this seriously yet.
And that there are committees coming together for the European Space Agency and international groups that are trying to put some kind of regulation that all spacecraft must have an end of life plan. And this is not the case today. So right now you can launch a spacecraft and people are going to say, look, what are you going to do when this thing reached the end of its operations?
You’re like, I don’t know. Who cares? Right.
And that’s perfectly no longer acceptable. Well, it is. I mean, like nobody is going to take it a task yet, but we’re probably just a couple of years away from that being the case that there are zero debris, zero remnant policies that are being put together now by especially the European Space Agency.
Dr. Pamela Gay: The Kessler syndrome is something we truly wish to avoid. The WALL-E future is not the one I want. And unless it’s only the cute robots, I’m happy to take the cute robots and leave all of the death and destruction behind.
Fraser Cain: Who can gently push away satellites as they fly out into space, as opposed to the reality where they’re moving at 28,000 kilometers per hour and are like bullets tearing things apart.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So, yeah, we want to avoid the Kessler syndrome. We want to avoid landing things on people’s houses. There is amazing statistics that if the current growth of satellites goes up, we’re going to start to see human beings getting hit on the decade scale of time.
And just like clean up after yourselves, people. Leave nothing but footprints, take nothing but pictures.
Fraser Cain: Space footprints. Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. I mean, it’s like, again, it’s another tragedy of the comets that we are knowingly stumbling ourselves into, that we have this resource space. It is incredibly useful for us to be able to do our operations down here on Earth.
You can be able to communicate, be able to navigate, learn about the weather, predict, see our impact on the environment. It goes on and on. Farmers to track their fields, there’s so many benefits from us having this resource of space.
And yet, like we always do, we are filling it and not thinking too deeply about how to share it as a space. And we’re already starting to experience some consequences, but they have not gotten bad yet. We are in the pre-consequence phase of this process.
And now is the time to think about how to deal with it.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And it’s going to be an amazing future. And I look forward to doing an update on this, where we talk more about the new technologies to refuel, to grab and move, to de-orbit forcefully.
Fraser Cain: Oh, that sounds great. Yeah. Yeah.
Let’s, let’s, I mean, because it’s not just like you shut off your spacecraft and call it a day, that the kinds of things that people are yelling into their devices right now, why don’t they refuel them? Why don’t they refurbish them? This is all an industry that is starting to take off.
And in fact, various spacecraft have done this. So I think you’re exactly right. Let’s, let’s come back around in the future and talk about what are the cool ideas to deal with space junk, refurbish satellites, make them operational longer, try to live that dream of a, of a reusable, repairable future.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And we’ll be five years from now talking about how ISS is getting de-orbited. That is something like, I’m going to travel to see Apophis fly by. I’m going to travel to see YR4 potentially hit the moon.
And the ISS launching is going to be absolutely amazing.
Fraser Cain: Like seeing the ISS come down.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, it’ll be happening in the middle of the Pacific ocean, hopefully.
Hopefully. But yeah. All right.
We’ll see. Thanks, Pamela.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Thank you, Fraser. And thank you everyone out there. This show is supported by you through Patreon.
If you don’t have money to throw, we’re fine with that. Just go follow for free so that you can get regular updates on everything we’re doing. And I will be reading names separately, Rich, that file’s coming to you later today.
We are here thanks to the amazing support of everyone at Patreon.com slash AstronomyCast. This week, we would like to thank in particular Abraham Cottrell, Alex Cohen, Alexis, Andrew Palestra, Andy Moore, Arctic Fox, Brett Moorman, Brian Cook, Brian Kilby, Buzz Parsec, Claudia Mastroianni, Danny Maglucci, Diane Philippon, Fairchild, just as it sounds, Felix Gutt, G. Caleb Sexton, Gerhard Schweitzer, Glenn McDavid, Gordon Dewis, Helga Bjorkhag, J.
Alex Anderson, Janelle Jarvis-Earl, Jeanette Wink, Jim McGeehan, Joanne Mulvey, Jonathan H. Staver, Jordan Turner, Katie Barron, Katie and Ulyssa, Christian Golding, Lee Harbourn, Masa Hulehu, Matthew Crampton, Michael Purcell, Michelle Cullen, Mike Dogg, Noah Albertson, Paul Esposito, Paul L. Hayden, Peter, Planetar, Rajev Achari, Robbie the Dog with the Dot, Rizard with AZ, Sergio Sanchevo, Sachi Takeba, Skone, Scott Briggs, Stephen Coffey, The Lonely Sandperson, Tim Garish.
Thank you all so very much. We wouldn’t be here without you.
Fraser Cain: Thanks everyone, and we will see you next week. Bye-bye.
Live Show
This week, we look at the process behind rockets getting licensed to launch, and everyone around the pad getting notified to stay away as T-0 approaches. (Can you say “errant boat”?) We have a saying around here: “One does not simply book a return trip from a rocket launch.” That’s because they are an intensely complex chain of events that need to go right before it’s wise to let that rocket leave the launchpad.
Show Notes Rocket impacts * Re-entry impacts * Ozone * Scale vs aviation * Light pollution * Wildlife * Methane * Atmospheric physics * Launch growth * Cadence plans * Human tech & ecosystems * Minimize harm * Factor externalities in policy & economics * CTA: Support research, responsible launch/sat policies, and dark-sky initiatives. TranscriptFraser Cain:*
AstronomyCast, Episode 765, Rockets vs. the Environment. Welcome to AstronomyCast, our weekly facts-based journey through the Cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know.
I’m Fraser Cain, I’m the publisher of Universe Today. With me as always is Dr. Pamela Gay, Senior Scientist for the Planetary Science Institute, and the Director of CosmoQuest. Hey Pamela, how are you doing?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I am doing well. We are recording this on the fall equinox. It’s all downhill from here.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, yeah, we can feel it. The weather definitely, definitely changed. Things are cooler, the wind is up.
Hopefully the rain will return. We’re still waiting on any amount of rain here. It’s been five months now since we’ve had serious rainfall.
Yeah, everything is just parched. So, you know, deep into September, the wildfire warning is still pretty extreme. So hopefully we will get just a miserable storm that will just dump a ton of rain on us and reset us back to some level of normality.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I have to admit we are in that strange time of year in Southern Illinois where all of my morning glories are wildly blooming everywhere and the leaves are changing and I kind of dig the combination.
Fraser Cain:
Like bindweed? Kill it with fire. The white flowers?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Little blue flowers. Little blue flowers.
Fraser Cain:
All right, all right.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
They’re good.
Fraser Cain:
We don’t launch a lot of rockets every year, so their impact on the environment is minimal compared to other forms of transportation. But that number is steadily increasing with rates that we’ll have to take seriously. What’s the current and future impact of rockets on the environment?
So give us a sense of the environmental impact. I guess, what are the forms, what are the ways that rockets can harm the environment compared to, you know, other forms of transportation that we’re familiar with?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So we have a number of different things going on. We have both launch and return to consider.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And on the way up, we have the sonic boom, which can deeply confuse and disturb surrounding animals. We have, in the case of the way SpaceX does things, there is usually a cloud of very cold, formerly liquid gas that goes across the landscape, chilling everything in its path. We have, as the rockets go up through the atmosphere, depending on if they’re solid rocket or the liquid oxygen that is so popular, or methane, which is becoming popular, you’re putting gases into the atmosphere at altitudes they may not normally be at.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. And then not to mention solid rockets, which produce other kinds of chemicals, again, at different altitudes.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And then we have satellites falling back down through the atmosphere. Satellites now need to have a five years after they’re no longer planned to be used plan for how to get them out of the way of everything else. And that generally includes burning them up in the atmosphere.
That drops particulate matter into the upper part of the atmosphere, where we are not sure if the dominant factor is going to be increasing the reflectivity of the planet or increasing the ability of greenhouse effect as light that goes up gets re-radiated back down. We’re still figuring out that balance.
Fraser Cain:
And there’s also damage to the ozone layer from those satellites.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yes.
Fraser Cain:
Burning up in the atmosphere.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And if something blows up, as Starship has done, it can actually put a hole in the ionosphere, which is fun.
Fraser Cain:
And then there are rockets that don’t make it all the way up to space and they don’t burn up in the atmosphere. And instead, they crashed into the ocean. And so, for example, the Space Launch System is going to crash the first stage into the ocean and sink to the bottom of the ocean and break up.
But yeah, you’ve got the plume of steam, of hot steam that comes out from the water system that tries to deal with the noise from the rockets that is blown out across the landscape. So there’s a bunch of things that are happening. There’s then all of the transportation that’s required, all of the maintenance, all of the infrastructure that’s required to get a rocket ready to launch.
In some cases, rockets are taken, you know, they’re constructed in California and then they’re taken on train all the way across the United States or on truck to be able to get to the launch site in Florida. So you’ve got all the separate component parts that are all coming together to launch this rocket. And now at this point, I’m sure those of you who are concerned about our impact on the environment would like to get a sense of the scale.
So do we have a sense of like how much rockets contribute to damage to the environment?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So there are detailed studies coming out of the Environmental Protection Agency and the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration that look at different factors. So for instance, my favorite thing that has been done so far is near Vandenberg is a beach where sea lions like to raise their young. And prior to allowing an ongoing launch license for SpaceX, which has far more launches out of Vandenberg than anyone else has had, they were required to monitor for a period of time how the sea lions reacted to sonic booms to make sure that the number of sea lions typically seen on the beach was not decreasing as an impact of having the sonic boom race across their beach.
There are also studies that look at what are the basically regions in which you’re going to have different amounts of sound, that chest vibrating noise that can actually cause damage to ears and what kinds of wildlife is within that. And so here they’re literally doing, okay, so we’ve seen this rocket go up. We know that it causes this many seabirds to just go away, cease to live within that region.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, don’t want to live there anymore.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Right. We know how much bigger the next rocket they’re planning to put is. Let’s now run calculations to model the decrease in seabirds and shoreline critters and alligators or something you have to worry about in Florida.
They go through and they look at all the different wildlife that is native to the area and that may decide it doesn’t want to live there anymore as a result of the impact of rockets. It turns out seabirds don’t care very much. They are seeing order of a few percent decreased, 10% decrease with bigger and bigger rockets.
The sea lions also do not seem to care very much. The biggest impact they’ve seen was a literal impact. It turns out that if you violently blow up the starship, you’re about to test the engines on for no clear reason.
I mean, they figured out the reason there was a starship that they were getting ready to test. One of the canisters became overpressured. The entire thing violently exploded and it shed pieces all over a beach where baby turtles were hatching.
And baby turtles can’t necessarily figure out how to go around pieces of exploded starship. So don’t explode your rockets was the primary thing.
Fraser Cain:
Don’t explode your rockets. Don’t explode your rockets. But, and, and that is, I mean, there are, there are like, again, I think like if people, people are going to feel really mad about this environmental damage or even this environmental impact that you are making this place that is scary and undesirable for the homes, for various mammals and seabirds, uh, that you are going to disrupt the patterns of animals that have had their, you know, their evolutionary process, their instincts have led them to these places. And so they don’t, you know, they can’t, you know, pack up and move somewhere else that this is going to have an impact on them.
That said, I mean, highways that crisscross the, the country, which are just killing zones for animals that are attempting to migrate. Uh, if you, we drove in Australia and it is just dead kangaroo, dead kangaroo, just a graveyard of animals here in Canada. It’s deer, um, moose elk.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Armadillos. Armadillos are suicidal.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Armadillos, turtles. So, uh, you know, there’s so much, you know, transportation, birds hitting the windows of your cars.
Like, like there are the, you know, the, what we do with mining, right. To a chunk of it. And so I think it’s great.
You know, we should definitely have a serious consideration about this, but you know, these are the kinds of concerns that animate you, uh, get, get out there and help work on minimizing humanity’s impact on the natural world because it is everywhere.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I do maintain you shouldn’t explode your rockets.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, well, obviously, but I mean like exploding rockets is not part of the plan. Exploding rockets is, is definitely part of the process and is definitely going to happen, but it is not the, you know, not every rocket is going to explode before the thing takes off from the, from the launch pad. So, you know, like the, like the, you know, this is a concern we actually didn’t talk about, which is light pollution.
Right. That, that, that there are star links that are passing through the night sky that if you look up now, if you could see the star links, there would be this giant grid. There would be hundreds of star links in the sky from your dozens, maybe dozens, but eventually it’ll be hundreds and that this is going to, you know, you can’t see it with your eyes, but they are contributing a generalized glow that is making satellite observations just a little bit harder.
Not to mention the ones that run directly through any imaging that a giant telescope is doing at certain times of the year. So there’s sort of like this increase in overall light pollution, the sky glow, as well as the direct harm. And, you know, people are very angry about this.
And yet a third of humanity can no longer see the Milky Way. Like the, our ability to see the sky has been completely taken from us because people can’t remember or can’t be bothered to use the kinds of lights that are best and point them towards the ground that we have to just point these things up in the sky and, and take away this, this view that is causing enormous harm to, uh, to animals that are tempted to migrate, et cetera.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
It’s something where, again, we have to compare and contrast. So for instance, the World Trade Center Memorial lights, when they get turned on, they can’t leave them on for very long because birds will get stuck in them and just go in circles because they can’t figure out how to navigate once they’re in the light. But the satellite constellations are something that it’s important to understand how these things work.
They want to have multiple low altitude to decrease latency satellites overhead all the time. So ideally something like five satellites out at a time in your sky, this is on top of the GPS satellites that have to be there already per network. And it’s a per network issue.
Fraser Cain:
Just like GPS is a per national collaboration, Chinese ones, you’re going to have the American ones, you’re going to have the European ones. They’re all going to be overhead.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And, and so as we layer orbit with more and more and more satellites to accomplish things with competing companies, it’s, it’s going to increase what we’re trying to look through. And then, and then there, there is this thing called reflect orbital. All of you go to reflect orbital.com at some point, they’re looking to build satellites that what they say on their website is reflect orbital is delivering sunlight by building a constellation of in space mirrors and, and they show solar panels at night receiving sunlight. And I really want this to be the onion, but they’re proudly saying they’ve secured 20 million in series a funding.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And, and so we’re also looking at a future where if someone wants to make sure that they’re all day, all night wedding celebration is well lit, you’d order up a satellite.
Fraser Cain:
Right. All right. So we rattled off a bunch of atmospheric gases that are being delivered and they have different potentially battling impacts on the environment.
So let’s just start with the, the greenhouse gases.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Methane. Methane is the one that worries me the most. We’re looking to power more and more rockets with methane.
It is a, it is one of the most serious greenhouse gases out there and it does break down in sunlight. So when you release methane into the atmosphere, it’s not going to stay there for years. It’s going to stay there for months breakdown under UV.
But while it’s there, it is contributing to as infrared light tries to leave our planet. So sunlight comes through in all the colors of the rainbow and colors redder and bluer than what we can see in our eyes. All that light comes through.
It warms the surface of our planet. It warms the atmosphere around us and warm things re-radiate in infrared. It’s black body radiation.
Ideally, a lot of that heat energy then radiates back out into space. But just like a greenhouse you might build in your backyard where the glass serves to keep the infrared warm light, warm photons inside your greenhouse. Well, putting methane into our atmosphere keeps that infrared warm light within our atmosphere, continuing to keep our atmosphere warmer than it necessarily would have been in the past.
This leads to long term heat. So, okay, there’s methane. That’s one issue.
We worry about ozone. We worry about how ozone is getting broken down as they add other chemicals to the atmosphere. There is concern that increased launch activity is creating a new northern hemisphere ozone hole.
And ozone holes, as any Australian can let you know, increase how much ultraviolet light is able to come down through our atmosphere. So each of these different gases that goes into the atmosphere changes what light comes through the atmosphere and reflects back away from the planet.
Fraser Cain:
Mm hmm.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Too much ultraviolet coming through due to holes in the ozone layer, reduction in the amount of ozone at the correct altitude in the atmosphere means more ultraviolet light and more cancers. And so we’re actually making ourselves sick by launching too many rockets that are depleting the ozone layer.
Fraser Cain:
Right. But it’s really important to understand here that the amounts that are, the depletion is very low, right? Currently.
So there was a study that was done, we reported this earlier this year, that right now with the current launch rates of in the sort of 200 to 300 launches per year, that it’s not outpacing the restoration of the ozone layer based on the reduction of chlorofluorocarbons. But you get up to the about say 1200 rate rockets per year, which is not inconceivable, then those numbers flip. And now the amount of damage to the ozone layer is happening faster than the amount that the lack, you know, than the thing is repairing.
And so everything turns around and goes the other way. And the sweet spot, or I guess the target to look at is, it’s around the 700 launches ish per year, 750 launches per year. So as we get closer to that 750 launches per year, then we will start to sort of zero out the damage that we’re doing or the restoration of the ozone layer and start to move in the other direction.
And then the other thing, and like this is, you know, when you think about say carbon dioxide, one transatlantic flight is about the same amount of carbon dioxide produced as one rocket launch. And that one, you know, one rocket launch is going to, you know, how many, you know, you’re going to get a couple of hundred launches per year when you’re going to have, what, tens of thousands of flights a day, right? Thousands of flights a day.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So, so all of that is true, but one of the concerns is the altitude at which the gases are getting released.
Fraser Cain:
And the, and the, the kind of, of, um, uh, the plume. So, so they’re very sooty. Yeah.
Rocket launches are very sooty. And so they produce a lot of fine particles that, as you say, are, are making their way into layers of the atmosphere that we’ve never seen that before. And that comes back to what you said earlier, which is that in fact, potentially we’re looking at, um, uh, potentially a cooling effect in sort of the same way that we had the, the shipping when they removed the sulfur dioxide from their fuels that actually things warmed up because they were these clouds, these persistent clouds of the shipping lanes were going away in the Atlantic.
So it’s like so confusing.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And the scale is really something that, that I, I have to give you actual numbers. It’s currently September 22nd. So far this year, we’ve had 222 launch attempts, according to rocket launch.live, um, eight of them ceased to be rockets prior to getting very high. So 2025, 222 at this point, looking back at 2020 in 2020 for the entire year, there were 114 looking back at 2015, there were 85 for the entire year. So we are going up very rapidly and they’re looking at adding dozens of launches per year of the Falcon 9 to Vandenberg. They’re looking to add order of 80 per pad Starship launches to, uh, Cape Canaveral.
I don’t know what numbers they’re aiming for, for, uh, Boca Chico. I haven’t read those reports yet. So we’re looking at with just one company, massive, massive increases in launches.
Now you start to propagate this across, you see Blue Origin is launching more and more of, of their smaller rockets. They’re starting to get their larger rockets going. You have Rocket Lab is just there slow and steady getting the job done.
And China is really working hard to catch up, uh, looking at launches by country. We’ve had 54 launches so far this year that were successful from China.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. So we talked about this and again, it’s very complicated and this is something that’s a lot of work on about the gases that are going out from the rocket as the thing is taking off. But you have the, the end of life and the most efficient way to deal with rockets with debris with satellites is to have them reenter the Earth’s atmosphere and that they are introducing very specific types of particles at an altitude that, that you don’t, don’t normally see.
That said, there is about a hundred tons of debris that is falling into the atmosphere every day from space.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
But that is generally silicon oxide, iron oxide, you know, it is, it is chunks of rock.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Not the kinds of exotic materials like aluminum, titanium, uh, the, the stuff that goes into solar panels. So it’s a different mix. What kind of impact are we expecting to see from these reentering satellites?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So one of the concerns is there’s a whole lot of aluminum used in space manufacturing. Uh, star, Starship by SpaceX is one of the exceptions. They’re using steel.
Most companies are using a lot of aluminum because it gives you a really good lightweight material that you can then use to support whatever the outer shell of your craft is. All that aluminum in the atmosphere appears to be the kind of particulate matter that’s capable of staying lofted in the atmosphere for long periods of time, which is a problem and then acting as a potential greenhouse gas feels like the wrong term to use, but I mean, it’s a greenhouse material that is changing the reflectivity of the atmosphere.
Fraser Cain:
And damaging the ozone layer.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. And that’s the, and that’s another kind of direct thing that you’re getting. So, so you’re getting this again, direct damage to the ozone layer and you’ve got the rockets going up and you’ve got the, the material coming back down, damaging the ozone layer and you’ve got the additional.
And I think I can see why you’re like, it’s not so cut and dry. You can’t just say it’s going to be like carbon dioxide or even methane or even water vapor injected into the atmosphere. It’s complicated that you’ve got this stuff coming down and adding soot at layers where you wouldn’t necessarily expect it to absorb temperature, but then it’s going to be changing temperatures at other layers.
So it’s going to make the climate, the atmosphere stack more complicated.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
There’s weird, weird effects. We’re still trying to figure out. So for instance, as you put more and more conductive molecules into the atmosphere, how is that going to affect things like Aurora and magnetic fields and things like that?
We’re figuring it out. It’s going to be affecting both light coming down and light going back out. How does that balance out?
And then we also have to remember that not everything burns up completely. And a lot of these spacecraft have on board fuels that allow them to adjust their altitude for however long they intend to be functioning. And so now there’s always that concern of, well, did that carry hydrazine?
Did that carry some poisonous component that’s going to make its way down? Or is it just something that has chunks that are… We like to bomb Australia.
It’s not on purpose. It just happens to be big and… They’re big, yeah.
Yeah, it…
Fraser Cain:
Underfoot.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Catches things. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
So between concern of remaining gases on board that are going to end up either on the ground or in the atmosphere, between now we’re putting new kinds of particulate materials that aren’t the pieces of rock that we’re used to burning up in the atmosphere, between not understanding how these particles are necessarily going to stay lofted, not fully understanding how they’re going to interact with each other to stay lofted in the planet’s magnetic field, there’s a whole lot of stuff we just don’t know.
And one of the things that always kind of sticks in the back of my mind is, in research on climate change, the biggest differences between what we’re seeing today and what was predicted in the early 2000s when we started talking about this with major papers coming out in around 2003, the mistakes we have made have been in lack of imagination about all the sources that we’re going to have for things producing greenhouse gases and lack of understanding all the atmospheric details.
Now, the one thing I can say is as we keep dumping completely empty boosters that previously contained liquid fuels, we are creating potential coral reefs. I’m a fan of potential coral reefs, but that’s the only good thing I’ve seen so far. And you know, the Navy already had it handled.
They were dumping old ships. It worked. We don’t necessarily need rockets too.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yep. So, I mean, what do you think can be done about this?
I mean, I think we should just be, we can guarantee that humanity’s interest in launching rockets will increase.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
And that we will probably blow through what are wise limits in number of rockets to launch.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
What I just don’t know right now is we live in a world where there are economic factors that are dominated by people trying to obtain so much wealth that it becomes power at the national, global level that they’re going to prioritize obtaining wealth over welfare of humanity.
Fraser Cain:
I mean, I don’t sort of necessarily buy into that personally that, you know, everybody driving their cars all the time, everybody hopping on airplanes, everyone getting on cruise ships, everybody, everybody burning and contributing.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. So I hear what you’re saying, but the majority of the greenhouse gases and other materials that are infecting our atmosphere are produced by, I forget how many corporations it is, but it’s.
Fraser Cain:
70 or something, 40, some small number. Yeah, of course.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So the majority of the impact is not coming from those airplanes. It is coming from industry. It’s coming from industry.
Fraser Cain:
And so. Or the industry that makes the airplanes, right? Like the, I mean, there are externalities and I guess this is where I think this conversation always needs to end to, which is that there are externalities, that you can’t just launch a rocket and not think about what you’re doing to the environment, that there are costs and whether, whether the costs have to be paid today or the costs have to be paid in the future, somebody is going to have to pay the costs. And in general, if you’re organized, you minimize the cost that anybody’s ever gonna have to pay ever right from the beginning. You take this, you take these future costs very seriously.
This potential tragedy of the commons and that that there are actions that we can take both in the types of fuels people are proposing, soot-free rocket fuels. People are proposing ways of making satellites, you know, either dumping them in in so they hold together and don’t burn up in the atmosphere, right? Like there’s a lot of ideas from cradle to grave on what you can do for the entire rocket industry.
For me, my hope is that we switch to a space-based infrastructure. That we, that if we’re gonna need things in space, we build them out in space. They don’t come from Earth.
And then they don’t have to crash back down to Earth. They just have never, they were born off Earth, they stay off Earth. That, that who cares what’s, you know, sort of how much pollution they’re causing because it’s just out in space.
That would be my preference. And that we shift away. Then maybe there’s this future where we launch a couple of rockets a year of people going off into space and that none of the other infrastructure is required.
Everything just happens off off Earth. But, but until then, we need to figure out ways to minimize their footprint now for when we know that it’s going to, you know, ruin the commons in the future.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And, and this is where people who, like so many of you out there watching, who want to understand the peer-reviewed, published science behind conversations like we’re having today, need to make their voices heard. Because we’re seeing in, in so many nations around the world, with my own nation leading the charge it appears, that, that profit is dominating in the short term over the long-term taking care of our world to make sure that economies continue into the future. And we’re even hearing far too many discussions about, you don’t need to worry because the rupture is coming.
Fraser Cain:
Right, yeah. So consider the externalities.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
You know, when you are making proposals, consider the externalities. When you are government, when you’re writing laws, consider the externalities. Make sure that they are part of the process and that then people can make a better decision on what is the true cost of some technology once you consider the long-term ramifications of what it’s going to be doing to the environment.
Because it is a, it’s a shared space for all of us.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And there is no one answer. That’s the important thing to remember. It’s sort of like, I should never own an electric vehicle because what goes into building one is substantial and we drive maybe 5,000 miles a year.
So yeah, it’s the answer.
Fraser Cain:
That’s a whole other conversation.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
It’s about nine months of driving an electric car then balances out and then it’s all gravy between an ICE and an electric car. That’s another conversation for another show. All right.
Thanks, Pamela.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Thank you, Fraser. And thank you to all of the people out there who support us through Patreon. We are in the process of updating our levels and what we’re doing.
We’re adding a new That Takes Math Q&A show in which I am working out problems that we are unable to answer during our live recordings because that takes math. So if you would like access to the live recordings of that insanity and so much more, check us out on astronomycast.com slash Patreon. No, I said that wrong.
On patreon.com slash astronomycast. I need to make both links work.
Fraser Cain:
We should make both work. Yeah, if you go to astronomycast, it takes you over to Patreon. Thanks, Pamela.
We’ll see you next week. Bye-bye.
Live Show
This week, we look at the process behind rockets getting licensed to launch, and everyone around the pad getting notified to stay away as T-0 approaches. (Can you say “errant boat”?) We have a saying around here: “One does not simply book a return trip from a rocket launch.” That’s because they are an intensely complex chain of events that need to go right before it’s wise to let that rocket leave the launchpad.
Show Notes Launch site & licensing * Environmental reviews * Safety corridors * Mission specifics * Weather rules * Launch windows * Countdown design * Abort & FTS * After launch TranscriptFraser Cain:*
Astronomy Cast, Episode 764, cleared for launch. Welcome to Astronomy Cast, our weekly facts-based journey through the cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I’m Fraser Cain.
I’m the publisher of Universe Today. With me, as always, is Dr. Pamela Gay, a senior scientist for the Planetary Sciences Institute and the director of Cosmogloss. Hey Pamela, how are you doing?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I am doing well. I am team Lava Lamp. I have joined the cadre of websites that hide behind CloudFlare and won my battle with bots thanks to a little help from a giant organization.
And now I’m here to discuss the science. We’re recording on a Wednesday, and I appreciate everyone’s patience as I slayed my personal web server demons.
Fraser Cain:
Yes. Yeah. Another vote for me for CloudFlare.
I hide Universe Today behind CloudFlare, and they cache 98% of the content that’s on Universe Today. Now it’s all HTML documents and images, but it’s incredible how much my web server just sits unused all the time, occasionally providing a page over to CloudFlare, and then CloudFlare is doing all the heavy lifting of generating that. And in fact, we have different policies.
You’re trying to use CloudFlare to stop all of the voracious AI scrapers that are tearing apart your site. I just let them all through. So you have that control.
In your case, you’re like, no, this is bringing my entire organization to its knees. And I’m like, I don’t care. Creative Commons 4.0, fill your boots, train away.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
I would be fine if the servers didn’t keep falling over. So reconstructing the servers is in the plans, but I don’t have the time. So right now, CloudFlare.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. And when I used to be running WordPress, when I used to be running something that was PHP heavy, I had to do that same thing. Now my web server is only HTML documents and images and is incapable of running scripts.
And so it is incapable of sort of having scripts run a mock. So yeah, I don’t really care. But the point is, man, CloudFlare is a pretty great way to protect your content.
This is not an ad. They are not paying us. We are just literally both.
[Speaker 3]
They could.
Fraser Cain:
They could. Yeah. CloudFlare, if you want to put an ad on an astronomy cast, now’s your chance.
We have a saying around here. One does not simply book a return trip from a rocket launch. That’s because they are an intensely complex chain of events that need to go right before it’s wise to let that rocket leave the launch pad.
All right, Pamela, give me your most hilarious, uh, the rocket didn’t launch when it was supposed to story and, and your trials and tribulations of having to deal with that.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Oh man. Um, so I think the most delightful was the launch of the, I think it was the LADEE mission on a Delta, Delta some number, I don’t remember the number. I was down Cape Canaveral.
I was part of one of the NASA social events as one of the talking heads and, uh, the launch was supposed to be stupid early in the morning, really early in the morning. And so they get us out to this adorable little boat dock area that NASA owns and, and it’s so early and we’re watching the sun come up. I hate mornings.
I am, as we’ve determined, three coffees and a trench coat and we’re all there and we’re all like, okay, just launch, we’re going to go back to bed. And it did not launch. And so we’re all out there and we’re like, are they going to reset?
And they reset, they did reset. And, and then manatees were discovered. And so you have all these people waiting for a rocket launch that are now obsessing, is that a crocodile?
Wait, that’s a manatee. There are more than one manatees. And then somebody figured out that if you turn on the freshwater tap, that’s meant for boats, the manatees will come over and they have these like mouths that are just adorable and horrifying simultaneously.
And so there was this like swarm of manatees all like knocking each other out of alignment to drink the fresh water from the freshwater tap. And so all of these people that have traveled, who knows how many miles and plane trips and hours in a car to see a rocket launch are now completely obsessed with the manatees drinking the water.
Fraser Cain:
That’s amazing.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And, and then the Delta went up, but I had never seen a Delta go up before and was not prepared for the fact that it just kind of sits there for a hot second, completely surrounding itself in clouds. And I’m there as the talking head. I’m like, oh, no, did it just blow up?
Am I going to have to explain that it just blew up? Oh, God, I’m going to have to. This is very rapid fire going through my brain.
And then the tip of the rocket starts to come out of the clouds. I’m like, OK, we’re good. We’re good.
It was a good day. Manatees and no explaining rocket explosions. So, so that that was my story.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, mine is that I went to take my father, who is a professional photographer, to watch the penultimate launch of the space shuttle. And so we went down to Cape Canaveral and got set up to photograph and and we did all the various tours and go out and you see the shuttle and and all of that. And then it was set to launch and there was a launch delay.
And we’re like, OK. And they said, no, the launch delay is like five days. And so we had a week in Florida before we had to go back.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
And so we went down to Miami, had a good time down checking out Miami. And then we came back to Cape Canaveral. The day was supposed to launch.
It was scrubbed again. And so we had to fly home and not watch the space shuttle launch.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Oh, no. I had the opposite experience in January with Blue Origin. I went to Florida.
I booked two straight weeks. I have a timeshare literally so that I can cover rocket launches. It’s just easier this way.
And I was there also for podcast movement conference. And the day I arrived was the day that Firefly launched. And and so I’m like dragging my sorry self after a 5 a.m. flight all the way from Orlando to the Space Coast. And I’m like, it’s there’s no way it’s launching. Totally launched, totally launched at 2 a.m. And then I it was cold. It was like freezing temperatures, frost, cold in Florida.
And so I drive all the way back to Orlando where my hotel is. And the next day was supposed to be Blue Origin. Blue Origin had already been delayed several times at this point.
And the email I get is we think we’re go for tonight. Here’s the location. We are on the roof of this hotel.
And I’m like, it’s 20 degrees. There is no way they’re launching tonight. I am so cold.
I am so tired. I am staying put. And they did not launch.
Fraser Cain:
Right.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And and then the next night, still so cold. And they’re like, we do not have a place for media tonight. And I’m like, I’m a woman traveling alone.
And you are launching in the middle of the night. And I emailed them this. And I’m like, where should I go?
And I will be safe. And they’re recommending like parks after dark. And I’m like, no, no.
Fraser Cain:
Sounds like a good idea.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
And I’ve wandered through crocodile or alligator infested bogs.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. And it was definitely a do you trust the bear or the human kind of a concern going on? And and so I was like, I’m staying in my hotel room.
I’m going to be warm on the Internet. And of course, they ended up launching the night. They didn’t have a place for media.
And so I was in Orlando, in my hotel room, in bed, in pajamas, watching launch, talking in chat on Discord.
Fraser Cain:
Is that the rocket I’m here to watch?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. Yeah. So I I currently Blue Origins second launch is slated for while I’m at an event, I’m going to be at Magikon in Atlanta discussing the science of Magic the Gathering cards.
So I’m kind of hoping they’re delayed and I’ll try again in November if they’re delayed. I’m evil. I shouldn’t wish delays on rockets.
I am wishing a delay on this rocket.
Fraser Cain:
All right. So we’re going to continue this conversation in our normal astronomy cast style, but I believe we just described many of the various trials and tribulations that rockets go through to be able to actually launch. All right.
So let’s talk about the sort of what it takes to actually light this candle.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
All right. So so it all starts with someone had to get the spaceport approved and then someone had to approve the rocket for the spaceport. And what’s really cool is right now we can follow along pretty much in real time as SpaceX goes through all the paperwork to get certified to launch their starship from Cape Canaveral and Kennedy Space Flight Center.
So there’s two different pads that they’re looking at. One of the pads is much further along in the approval process, and they’re having to figure out everything from where are the locations that if you’re standing there, you experience 100 decibels of sound, 80 decibels of sound, 60 decibels of sound. And so that goes into the where do humans need to not be.
They are working to figure out if the sucker blows up, where do you not need to be so that you survive? And and so all of these things end up going into maps. They also end up having to figure out where are all of the sonic booms going to be?
What is this going to disrupt? And the other thing they have to figure out is what is the clearance zone around your spacecraft? And now they have to figure it out both for launch and return in which boats can’t be located because if you blow up, you’ll sink them.
And boats can’t be located because the shock wave will do really bad things to anyone on board the boat. 100 decibels is bad. Do not experience 100 decibels.
And they also have to figure out where aircraft should not be attempting to fly, because aircraft versus rocket is called a missile. So so there are so many maps that have to be done. You have to figure out the the error in your navigation, which is getting to be a smaller and smaller number.
You have to figure out in order to get to all the different orbits that you want to service with your rocket. What is the span of places that are going to have to become no boat and no fly zones? And and a lot of planning that I hadn’t really thought through in terms of if you’re going into a polar orbit, your trajectory is totally different than if you’re going into an equatorial orbit.
And so you have to have different notams, which are either notices to aviation or notices to maritime people. And there is more paperwork than you can file with less than a committee of humans.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, yeah. And and so that is you choosing, as you say, getting your site chosen. That is you making sure that the rocket class that you are attempting to launch from this facility isn’t going to tear apart the fabric of reality at a fundamental level, that this rocket is is the right fit for the right launch site.
And there are a bunch of these launch sites. So you mentioned the Kennedy Space Center.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
But there’s Wallops. There’s Vandenberg, Vandenberg and and these. And so Wallops is a good example where they don’t.
You wouldn’t see super heavy taking off from Wallops. Too many humans. Too many humans.
Yeah, yeah, sure. Right. Maybe.
Yeah. So you’re going to see these smaller rockets depending on the on the facility and depending on what the class of the mission is and how far away it is from where they want to be able to bring their stuff. So, OK, so you’ve you’ve kind of gone through this process.
You’ve cleared the launch site. You’ve gotten approval that you’re able to launch this rocket. Then comes the actual specific mission that you’re planning, and then it’s an entirely other approval process.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. And there was one thing that we didn’t bring up, which is the turtles. All of these launch facilities that you mentioned are on the ocean.
They’re near beaches. And and so part of the process of getting launch approval is actually in in Vandenberg. SpaceX had to go out and monitor how launches affected the the nesting seabirds in the wildlife preserves nearby to make sure that launches and this is also a big sea lion issue, making sure that their launches don’t disrupt the breeding cycle of these animals.
So you have people going out and counting and watching the behavior of all of these animals along the beaches. And there’s actually been problems with when Starship blew up, it scattered pieces all over a Mexican beach where baby sea turtles were attempting to go from beach to ocean. And we’re encountering chunks of Starship that got in their way.
So so they also have to do wildlife assessments. And in reading through the the Environmental Protection Agency report on launching Starship from Cape Canaveral, they were like, it’s not going to be a bigger impact than what we’re already doing. And they have to figure all of this stuff out.
And most of these locations are wildlife preserves, because that’s a really good way to keep humans from building houses there. And you don’t want to build houses near a launch pad. Rockets make bad neighbors.
Watch the last episode of EVSN to hear about that one.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, that’s interesting that that the the place where you want to build a rocket is also the place where you want to protect nature.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Exactly, exactly. Visiting the Cape, we’ve both seen the big eagles nest that.
Fraser Cain:
Yes. And I’ve seen that exact manatee dock. I know exactly what you’re talking about.
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. Awesome.
Fraser Cain:
Yep. So but but with back to my original question, you know, the mission. So so depending on what the what the the spacecraft is going to have solid rocket boosters, is it going to have a bigger upper stage?
It can have a kick stage. What is the satellite payload is supposed to do? These all have to be reviewed as part of the actual launch.
And there’s a state there’s every time you try to do something new, you have to go through this process again.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And the doing something new can include changing your control room, for instance. So so when you have a launch license, the launch license is as specific as we are going to be controlling communications from this room in this building. We are going to be using this explosive device to blow it up if we have to.
We are going to be controlling everything with this software. It goes all the way through the entire process. And every stage has to be approved, which means that when we see these new commercial space companies go from the tiny buildings of we’re a baby company, this is all we’ve got to massive.
OK, we’re doing OK. We can build a bigger building because we have more humans. They have to get recertified for each change in control room.
And SpaceX actually has has been fined for filing the paperwork, but not waiting for it to get approved and moving their control room early. It’s a complicated process that was designed to be the kind of thing that federal contractors are just used to. Military is just used to.
And it’s been an adventure to watch all of the new commercial space people be like, but what do you mean paperwork? And it’s to protect everyone on these shared facilities.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, I mean, it’s hard to imagine something that is both sort of important for the economy, that is also as dangerous as a rocket, which is a giant tube filled with explosives that is fire at thousands of kilometers per hour. Yeah, I wouldn’t just, you know, out away over terrain, right? Like there’s so many things that can go wrong and we have seen them go wrong.
All right. So you’ve got your launch site. You’ve got your your rocket is matched to your launch site.
You have gone through the process to approve your specific mission that you’re going to be doing.
[Speaker 3]
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Now you set a launch date and now there’s still a range of things that will challenge and complicate your ability to launch this actual rocket.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. So so the errant boat is my favorite. I just have to say, if you’re going to have a reason to not launch, the errant boat brings me joy because there have been cases of like rogue kayaker who got too close and stopped the launch from happening.
And and the they really put a lot of effort into making sure these are safe things. And so they define both a launch window, which is both the window that gets you to space on the orbit that you want. And also the we’re going to launch within this window.
And boaters were sorry you can’t go there. Then flights were sorry you can’t go there then. And and there’s a lot of times when we have a rocket that it really doesn’t matter when you launch the orbit.
It just doesn’t care. There’s also instantaneous launches, which are really easy on everybody, because if you don’t launch that second, you don’t get to where you need to be.
Fraser Cain:
Right. Don’t wait till tomorrow.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
But but all these other things that have launch windows that can be both because of your orbit and also because they don’t want to cut off flight for the entire day over your region.
Fraser Cain:
And and it gets super complicated when you have these various technical challenges. There’s a fuel leak. There’s a lack of pressure in one of the lines.
And you you realize you’re going to have to to not scrub the launch. You have to push the launch back. Well, that means that all the people that are enforcing the the downrange boat closure have to then continue enforcing that.
And it can go on for hours and hours and hours and hours. And it just gets you know, after a while, you’re herding cats. People are are are moving through the area.
Crew ships need to have to go up and down. Yeah, there’s tons and tons of boats that are normally making this journey through these waters. And you’re literally closing down the waters for hours and hours and hours, trying to get all of these problems stamped out before you can actually make the launch happen.
The other big thing is weather.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So one thing I just want to add, though, is is the no boats. The no flights is something that’s impacting folks that are like not part of the aerospace industry. The other thing that happens is they have to clear out the surrounding launch pads and how many of the facilities down at the Cape along the Space Coast have to be emptied out depends on how big a rocket you’re launching.
And so they’re estimating that with Starship for the 76 launches a year, the surrounding pads that are owned by ULA, NASA and a blue origin, blue origin are going to be facing as many as 400 leave your site periods per year. Wow. Because you have to empty out.
Also, when you’re doing a test firing, the static firing tests are also dangerous, as as we found out back in June with Starship.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So so this also has commercial implications on your competitors, which is fascinating. But but weather weather does not care what company you are. It does not care if you’re private or military.
Those thunderheads are going to get you no matter what. And so they’re looking at a variety of different things that vary from rocket to rocket. And this is the cool thing.
Some rockets are just like I shall go through the clouds and nothing shall stop me. The Russians, it’s like nothing stops a Soyuz launch. They’re just going to go driving rain.
Sure. Why not? Down down at the Cape, the things that you frequently hear are top level winds.
So this is as you’re going up, you don’t want the winds to be so fast that you’re worried about what chaos they’re going to add to your trajectory. And that’s exactly what it is. These winds are a force that changes your course.
And can your rocket stay on the course? It needs to be in the face of these high level winds. The other thing you have to worry about is lightning.
They have lightning rods around all of the launch pads. But those don’t help when you’re flying through the atmosphere. And the rockets should be fine against lightning.
But no one wants to find out. Then there’s also visibility issues. They need to be able to see what’s going on at a certain degree.
And exactly which combination of where does the ceiling of the clouds need to be? What does the wind need to be? How far away does the lightning need to be?
Is on a per spaceport, per launch vehicle kind of basis.
Fraser Cain:
And it’s even sort of per phase. So like right now, SpaceX is trying to test out Starship and they’re trying to find out, you know, what are the limitations of the super heavy booster? What kind of angles can they bring it back at?
How many engines can they lose and still be able to make a safe capture and so on and so forth? And and also they want to be able to watch the entire launch and see every single stage go off. Watch as as the adapter breaks off between super heavy and Starship.
Watch as Starship lights its engines. Watch as, you know, as it’s interacting and see what’s happening with the with the atmosphere. And so if you do have like a lot of fog or a low cloud deck, things like that, then you lose sight of your rocket and it makes it a lot harder.
And so for them, it’s worth it to delay the launch, push back the launch, get those clear skies, get the wind conditions that are within the range that they need to be able to to clear that for launch.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And they’re using drones which which have their own flight conditions. And the other thing that I think we need to remember is part of the you have to approve everything is as soon as SpaceX started doing the amazing videos with their Falcon nine that allowed you to see the entire process from onboard cameras. Everyone was like, NASA needs to add onboard cameras.
And then was like, why isn’t NASA adding onboard cameras? Because that requires updating your launch license.
Fraser Cain:
Right.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And so there’s paperwork even for doing things like adding a camera to your rocket and changing how it’s configured. And that has to be space hardened. And and and so it takes time for ideas to propagate when you have an existing rocket that already has its launch licenses.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. So now we’ve got, you know, we’ve worked through the the weather conditions, the launch conditions.
And there are going to be various technical issues that might come up with the rocket itself. But all of that has been cleared. And so as we sort of say everything is is go for launch and we start to reach sort of near the end of the of the countdown.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
We often see this pause.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Where they, you know, they put in a go pause. Well, they like they’re like a planned hold.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. Yeah.
Fraser Cain:
And so what’s going on there? Why are they doing this right at the end before they launch?
Dr. Pamela Gay:
So countdown clocks are designed as something that gives you a checklist of this happens at this point, this happens at this point, this happens at this point. And there’s different philosophies on how you design your countdown. And it’s fun to see how this works out differently, especially where like I, you and I grew up watching the space shuttle that had a whole variety of planned holds in its countdown.
And those planned holds were people did things that they thought would probably take five to 10 minutes or maybe 20 minutes. So they’d go into a planned hold and say, we expect this planned hold to last. And they’d say how long they expected it to last.
But it didn’t necessarily last that long. So the planned hold allows them to have flex in their countdown for launches that have a window versus an instantaneous launch. And they often run checklists.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. And you can see it like if you got humans that are climbing aboard your spaceship and doing human things, then there’s a support. Then you’re still following the larger timeline of your countdown.
But one of those things is getting all of your astronauts to climb inside the space shuttle and and hook up all their umbilicals and and make sure everything is right. And and you think it’s going to take you X amount of time, but it actually takes you Y amount of time. And so that will push it.
But with the satellite launches and stuff, these planned holds can be very quick. Like sometimes just a few seconds, 30 seconds or something they’ve got to do. They’ve got to make sure it has to be done at that moment.
And you’ll see that that planned hold.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And human versus satellite. You have two things that that become suddenly very different. First of all, the loading of the humans and the closing of the door and the ceiling of the door that can’t be done ahead of time.
That has to be done that day. You’re not locking the humans in five days in advance, like with the satellite.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah, just stay in there and launch there for a while. Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
But but the other issue is with with humans, you have all of the abort locations. So abort to here, abort to there. In case of issue, we saw this, I want to say eight years ago where they had to do an abort of a Soyuz and then they had to go figure out where in the forest the Soyuz went.
And and so you have to do the check of not just the weather at the launch facility, but the weather at all of your abort to locations. So you have two different things that get added in with human beings. OK, I’m done.
Move on to the next topic. Sorry.
Fraser Cain:
No problem. So now, you know, we get down to zero. The it’s we go for launch.
They start the the rocket begins. But there’s still one phase that may stop this rocket from continuing on to orbit. And that is if something catastrophically bad happens to the rocket and not like it tears itself apart, but there’s something wrong and they need to still abort the launch.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. So luckily, we don’t see this too often, but there’s been some amazing examples from new commercial spaces. They’re developing new rockets.
So I can’t tell you how many times we’ve seen a rocket just start to clear the launch pad and then fails. My favorite failure was and this happened not in the final few seconds. There was a rocket recently that decided to just like fling its satellite fairings.
So sitting on the launch pad and suddenly you have naked satellite. It was glorious.
Fraser Cain:
It was still take off.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
No, no. They’re like, oh, no, we can’t. We no longer have fairings.
Fraser Cain:
But I mean, no, we know that rocket is going to make it without fairings. Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Just the idea that your rocket suddenly goes spring. No more fairings on the launch pad. It yeah, I love it.
We’ve we’ve seen launches where it goes up and it turns around and you detonate it before it can destroy your launch pad.
Fraser Cain:
And that’s the key is that detonation, that there needs to be a way to explode your rocket if it’s doing something catastrophic. It’s going in exactly the wrong direction. If it veers left and heads toward a city, you need to be able to detonate that rocket and stop it from going any further.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Yeah. And and I go check out some of the videos there. There are rapid unplanned disassembly videos. There is lithographic breaking videos.
New Commercial Space is providing us modern 4K video of things that last happened in the 60s, and I am here for the innovation and occasional mistakes.
Fraser Cain:
Yeah. Yeah. So that is the sort of chain of events you have to get through.
And it’s kind of amazing how many of these little steps, and I’m sure someone who actually works in the rocket industry is like, you have no idea how many of these little things we have to deal with step by step by step. This is gigantic chain of events where it can go wrong at every step of the way. And yet, incredibly, rockets launch and they go to space and it works.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
And it would be a completely different conversation to talk about everything that goes into docking. We saw earlier this week, Cygnus rocket, Cygnus Extra Large, that was designed to be able to boost the International Space Station had a rocket issue. And I haven’t checked to see if that’s been fixed yet, but they had to abort their docking with the International Space Station because weren’t going to be in the right place at the right time.
And this is a new capsule that they’re working with.
Fraser Cain:
All right. Well, maybe that’s a future episode. Thanks, Pamela.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
Thank you, Fraser. And I’m going to record names after the fact. Go join us on Patreon.
We are adding all sorts of new things. I am still figuring this out, which is why we are not recording the names right now. And Fraser and I are moving everything we do one step at a time into this happy place that doesn’t have AI recommending what we do and create.
And check out if you’re listening to this podcast and you want to hear more about what I just said. We had a magnificent rant on the live recording on YouTube about all the things YouTube is doing to us. So, yeah.
Fraser Cain:
Thanks, everyone. And we will see you next week.
Dr. Pamela Gay:
See you next week. Bye-bye.
Live Show
During our summer hiatus, the third interstellar object was discovered 3I/ATLAS. so now we have three different interstellar interlopers to compare and contrast. What are we starting to learn about other star systems from this small sample size, and how will our detection get even better?
Show Notes Discovery of 3I/ATLAS * Characteristics of 3I/ATLAS * Trajectory & Observation Challenges * Scientific Context & What It Tells Us About Other Star Systems * Future Prospects & Missions * Population Estimates * Why This Matters * Questions to Think About TranscriptFraser Cain:* AstronomyCast, Episode 763 Interstellar Comets. Welcome to AstronomyCast, your weekly facts-based journey through the Cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I’m Fraser Cain, I’m the Publisher of Universe Today.
With me, as always, is Dr. Pam LeGay, a Senior Scientist for the Planetary Science Institute and the Director of Cosmocosm. Hey Pam, how are you doing?
Dr. Pamela Gay: I am doing well. I figured out roughly our recording schedule for the year, and it looks like Episode 800 is going to either be the last episode of this year, or the first episode of next year.
Fraser Cain: It depends on what happens.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah, we’re so close, and this is Season 19.
Fraser Cain: It is Season 19, okay, because I just lost track, I don’t even care anymore what season this is.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah.
Fraser Cain: Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: It’s more than five.
Fraser Cain: Season 19, wow.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And have you seen all the new features that Patreon rolled out last week? So it’s just sort of like, new season, new us, and so I’m super excited. I am working on rolling out all the new features, and wow, I’m going to be busy this week.
Fraser Cain: Yeah, we’ve leaned hard into Patreon for Universe Today. Essentially, I’m pushing all of the content there, all of our RSS feeds, the public feed goes there, the private feed goes there. It makes me a little nervous, but it’s such a better existence.
Since we made the change over to no ads on Universe Today, switching completely supported by Patreon, I’ve just, I’ve never felt calmer. I’m in this sort of monk-like existence where I’m just in this state of eternal bliss, choosing what to do today, as opposed to feeling anxiety and panic over the rise of AI slop and the decreasing amount of ad rates and the brutal search engine optimization mouse wheel and all of that. It’s all just bliss now.
So yeah, if you haven’t already, come support us on Patreon if you want this content. That is the way. Patreon.com slash astronomycast, or patreon.com slash universe today.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Or patreon.com slash CosmoQuestX.
Fraser Cain: Yeah, and so you can support all of that work that we do. And for those of you who already subscribe, I mean, the hope is that we’ll make this an even more valuable experience because we’re just, you know, we’re all in. And then for those of you who are like, I’m on the fence, I don’t know, are there benefits?
Oh, there are benefits and you will appreciate them. So definitely go and check out what we’re doing. Okay, well, during our summer hiatus, the third interstellar object was discovered, Comet 3i Atlas.
So now we have three different interstellar interlopers to compare and contrast. What are we starting to learn about other star systems from this small sample size, and how will our detection get even better? And we will talk about it in a second, but it’s time for our break.
And we’re back. Do you like the timing on this? The discovery of 3i Atlas was July 1st, I think?
Dr. Pamela Gay: It was July 1st, and we had just finished recording our last episode. I don’t think it had quite come out yet. And it was like, we just missed it.
But I mean, what would we have said at that point? There’s a fast moving object that we know has a coma-ish around it.
Fraser Cain: Yeah, it’s out by Jupiter or is out by Saturn.
Dr. Pamela Gay: It was out by Jupiter at that point, yeah.
Fraser Cain: So now it is much closer. Every major telescope, space and ground has been pointed at it. And we are getting, I mean, every week when I do my news update, it’s just like, here’s the latest news on 3i Atlas, and it just gets better and better and better.
So yeah, this has been a fun one. And so we’re just going to plant our flag now and let you know what we know about it and just what we’re learning about interstellar objects and continue this conversation. So I guess, what do we know about 3i Atlas?
Dr. Pamela Gay: All right. So on July 1st, it was recognized that there was something moving at an absurdly high velocity through the outer solar system. And we’re talking at that point, they were trying to figure out exactly what it was, but it was like 60 to 90, depending on which set of images you used.
And when you say 60 to 90, kilometers per second, sorry, units matter. And that is obscenely fast for a solar system object. And in fact, you cannot be tied into our sun at that distance and not be on an escape velocity at that velocity.
Fraser Cain: This is way faster than Oumuamua. This is way faster than Borisov. And yet we are super fortunate that we’re catching it inbound and not outbound.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yes. And unfortunately, this is the most annoyingly timed comet that ever could exist. If you run one of the simulators that allows you to see, it’s almost straight line, both through the solar system compared to the orbits of Earth, Mars, Jupiter.
There is pretty much a straight line through I3 Atlas, the sun and Earth when it is closest to the sun. So we’re going to be like in the worst of all possible places when it is in the most interesting of all possible places.
Fraser Cain: Right. So perihelion, when it’s going to be experiencing the maximum amount of radiation pressure from the sun, it should have the best tail, should be throwing out as much of its material as we can hope for to get a really good glimpse of what it’s made out of. That is the time when we’re not going to be able to see it.
And then it’s going to be lost in the glare of the sun before and after. And so yeah, it is terrible, terrible timing.
Dr. Pamela Gay: But next Christmas, as we come around the other side of the sun, we should be able to watch it on its way out. It won’t have made it too much further at that point. So unfortunately, the place that would have the absolute best view of this is Mars.
And we just don’t have a big telescope at Mars.
Fraser Cain: We have a pretty good telescope at Mars. So it’s going to be coming within, I forget the exact number, but like in between one and two AU of the sun. So farther than Earth.
So it’s not going to get that close in early October. But it is going to do a flyby of Mars and get within point two AU?
Dr. Pamela Gay: That sounds about right.
Fraser Cain: Of Mars. Yeah. So it’s going to get, it’s going to get very close to Mars.
And we do have a bunch of spacecraft there, including the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, which has pretty much the largest telescope that is not in orbit around the Earth or at the, you know, at the LaGrange point. So I think, what is it? I forget the size of the telescope.
Several, several centimeters. Anyway, it’s, it’s relatively large and that’s what gives us those great images of the, of the surface of, of Mars. So it’s going to be able to take some pictures, but you know, does it, is it better to have James Webb take a shot from farther away with dramatically more power?
You know, we use everything. We’ll throw the kitchen sink at it.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. And, and I mean, the, the sad part is just, we want to see it when, when it’s closest to the sun, because as you said, that’s, that’s when we’re going to have the most outgassing. It’s when it’s having the most outgassing that we can measure its composition the best.
But we’re still getting really good data already because we do have that many meter across James Webb Space Telescope that’s able to capture it in the infrared. And that’s where it’s most interesting right now. And Rubin Observatory is coming online, which is going to allow us to get a study stream of images of it.
And I’m betting that we’re just going to be systematically bouncing back and forth between Gemini says, Hey, we saw JWST says, Hey, we saw, and this is what’s happening right now is director’s discretionary time is getting used on all these different instruments. And one of the most glorious things to, to eat popcorn while watching this summer was the astronomical community on blue sky, which is where they all move to basically responding to the spattering of papers, claiming that it is aliens by just going hard in publicizing their data fast and early. And so irritation is causing people to be motivated to work fast.
And the fact that this is an interstellar object that looks like nothing in our solar system is then spurning us to keep working fast. All right.
Fraser Cain: We’re going to talk about what makes this thing different in a second, but it is time for another break. And we’re back. All right.
So we’ve got all these telescopes. As you said, Gemini, Subaru, James Webb, Hubble Space Telescope, many more grounded space based telescopes have turned on it in different wavelengths. What have we learned so far?
Dr. Pamela Gay: First of all, it does not have the same composition of what we expect of comets in our own solar system. And in our own solar system, we’re usually like starting to worry about things like what are the isotopic ratios of different comets because they’re that similar. Yeah.
Some will have sulfur, some will have there, there are differences, but in the grand scheme of things, our sun brought together gas and dust that was more or less uniform as a function of distance from the sun. And so the differences we’re seeing are just differences of being at a different point in the solar system during formation. Well, this sucker comes from a different star’s cloud that came from a different combination of supernovae giving up their materials to feed into this particular system.
And so what we’re finding is the carbon dioxide to water ratio is eight to one, which is the highest ratio ever seen.
Fraser Cain: And I know that in addition to that, normally you see carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide going hand in hand with their ratios to water and its ratios are not linking up the way comets normally do either.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And so we’re seeing folks saying things, and here I’m going to read a quote from one of the research papers, a low coma water gas abundance may be implied, continuing on, due to inhibited heat penetration into the nucleus, there could be a suppression of water sublimation rate relative to carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. So we already have the theorists involved saying it’s got a different composition. It’s gone through these different things.
It’s behaving differently. And this is where everyone’s going to have their eyes peeled to watch how it evolves as it passes through the solar system. We already know that we can expect slightly different evolution of a comet that is on its one and only passage through the inner solar system compared to one that’s on its nth of many passages through the solar system.
Well, in this case, we don’t know how long this object has been out between the stars, just sitting there doing things that you do when you’re cold. And there’s different molecular chemistry that we’ve learned happens very, very, very slowly in very, very cold situations. And so we’re going to see the results of these different chemical processes.
Fraser Cain: Do we have a sense of the age of this comet?
Dr. Pamela Gay: So there are folks saying it is old and it could come from the thick disk of the galaxy. I’m waiting for there to be more data. I’m waiting for there to be high resolution spectroscopy and being able to start catching radioisotopes that give us something.
And the reason for that is simple. Its current trajectory demonstrates that it is currently on a vector that when you work it backwards has it coming on a line that carries it out to the thick disk. It’s not confined to the plane of our galaxy.
It’s on a slope. Now, the thing is, there’s a whole lot of stuff between us and the edge of the galaxy, a whole lot of stuff between us and the thick disk. And so, one, assuming its velocity has never been changed by an encounter with some other mass, it could have come from anywhere along that line.
And in order for something to get flinged at one heck of an amazing velocity out of a solar system, it probably underwent some sort of a three-body problem that would have changed its velocity, changed its vector. And we don’t know what it’s encountered since it was jettisoned from its home solar system.
Fraser Cain: Right, right. But, like, space is big and those flybys are uncommon and difficult to coordinate. And so, if it does come from the thick disk, where that makes it interesting is that those are old stars.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Exactly.
Fraser Cain: That would mean that it is many billions of time, many billion years older than the solar system, which is really interesting because we still don’t really understand how the metals came together for earlier generations of stars. And so, you’ve got the universe hurling samples right at us. We just have to catch them, at least with our telescopes, but ideally get samples and bring them home.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah, that’s not happening.
Fraser Cain: I know. I know. I know.
I know. Make a dream. But we will be examining other star systems if we can get our hands on samples.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And this, I think, is further fodder for the idea that it does benefit us to keep the occasional space probe in a parking orbit ready to zip off in this direction or that to run down these objects.
Fraser Cain: Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And that’s the future I want.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Well, I mean, that future is in the works. So, the European Space Agency is working on a mission called the Comet Interceptor.
It originally was expected to launch with Ariel. I don’t know if it’s still on schedule to do that. That was going to be 2028.
It would go to the Earth-Sun L1 Lagrange point and then just loiter. L2. L2.
for either an interesting or cloud comet or, ideally, an interstellar object that is within its fuel capability. And then it will fire its rockets and go and try and make an intercept trajectory to give us close-up pictures, fly through the tail, try to do some kind of spectroscopy on the object itself. That’s still a long way from bringing a sample home, but it’s a great first step.
Imagine if we could get close-up pictures of a comet or asteroid that came from another star system.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Exactly. And there’s nothing to stop us in the future from designing things that may not be bringing the samples home, which has a whole lot of slightly concerning things going on. But if we can start lifting things that carry better scientific suites on board, where they start being able to do chemistry similar to what Curiosity has been capable of doing, we have a future where, as we look at heavy-lift rocket after heavy-lift rocket being under development, we can start imagining heavy-mass ships capable of grabbing a sample and doing in-situ laboratory science.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. I mean, I’ve reported on every version of this. So, I’ve reported on in-situ analysis by probes to places like Enceladus.
And it’s kind of the same technology, that you fly through the plumes on Enceladus and then you taste it, and then you analyze what it is that you picked up. Same thing, fly through a comet tail and analyze it locally. But the dream is to bring back a sample return.
And there’s some really interesting mission ideas where you could even theoretically bring samples back home. You know, as you said, honking big rocket. But then there are ion thruster, essentially an ion thruster connected to a nuclear reactor, or even an ion thruster connected to an RTG, like the kind of power system that’s on Curiosity and Perseverance, but with no other craft.
And so, it’s just engine and power with a tiny little sample return capsule. Then you could fly through the tail and then head for home. And these things can give you like delta Vs in the range that would actually be able to retrieve a sample.
Maybe not from Trialis, it’s going so fast, but maybe a slower one. So, there’s some, you know, now that we know these things are out there, people are starting to go, oh, how do we get some of this home? Which is great.
All right, we’re going to continue talking about this, but it’s time for another break. And we’re back. All right, so now we’ve got some sense of what’s happening with Trialis, so now do we have some larger context?
I mean, we know about Borisov, we know about Oumuamua, and now we know about Trialis. Are we getting a sense of how many of these things are out there? How many are passing through the Solar System?
Is there anything in common among them?
Dr. Pamela Gay: Well, saying there’s something in common, at what level do you want to look at them? They’re all objects that grew comas as they passed through our Solar System. Now, what’s important to realize is we actually have for a long time had a sense that there should be comets from other Solar Systems.
We just haven’t had the survey instrumentation capable of finding things on the regular. But as we build system after system, as our software gets faster and faster and able to process for what changed more efficiently, it’s thought that we’re going to be able to start detecting, depending on which paper you read, six per year to a dozen per year of these objects that should be out there. And so it’s not that we didn’t think they were out there, it was that we didn’t really have the capacity to see them.
And one of the things that I’ve been kicking myself for is all of us as undergrads who became astronomers learned conic sections in both our physics classes, our calculus classes, and our astronomy classes in connection to comets, where we were learning comets have hyperbolic, parabolic, and elliptical orbits. Well, only elliptical orbits keep them in our Solar System. And none of us thought to ask, as struggling undergraduates, or at least no one in any of my classes thought to ask as struggling undergraduates, wait, these parabolic and hyperbolic, we’re flinging those, right?
So that means we’re ditching this number of comets. That means other Solar Systems, if they’re out there, are also ditching comets. As soon as you start thinking about what fraction of our comets have parabolic and hyperbolic orbits, it becomes natural to start asking what percentage of other Solar Systems.
Now, when I was an undergrad, we didn’t know exoplanets existed yet. You and I are old. But now we do.
And now we also know exocomets are visiting. And it is amazing. And I want high-resolution spectroscopy.
And you can’t do that from a spacecraft. Because it takes the entire basement of an observatory to build a high-resolution spectrograph. So you’re needing something bigger than several ISS units to do it.
But it will get closer. We’ll be able to see it better. And I am excited.
Fraser Cain: Yeah, people have been saying, why did we never notice this before? Why are they just happening now? Well, it’s because our ability to detect them has finally come online.
We are in the era of these all-sky surveys. The Zooki Transient Facility, the Atlas. When you look at the names of comets and asteroids, they’re often named after the observatory.
And so there’s a bunch of these now that are operating. But the mother of all sky surveys is now in its final commissioning phase. And that is Vera Rubin.
And so our ability to detect these kinds of things, to identify them quickly and start to study them, will go up orders of magnitude thanks to Vera Rubin, which is now just a couple of months away. It’s crazy how soon we are to the beginning of that operation. And then it’s just going to be a firehose of these things.
And asteroids and comets and planet nines and supernovae and all of this is all going to come online because of all-sky rapid time domain surveys. So, I mean, what I find really interesting about Oumuamua and Borisov and 3i Atlas is that they are very different from each other. Borisov is the least weird of the bunch.
It has a very comet-like, like it feels like it didn’t come up.
Dr. Pamela Gay: It was a comet as comets should be.
Fraser Cain: It felt like it came out of the Oort cloud, but it didn’t. But it had very similar characteristics to a comet, grew a comet, grew a tail. The chemicals in it were relatively similar.
But Oumuamua, as we saw, had this really strange length to height ratio, which was super unusual. It outgassed in a different way than a comet normally would. And so people are still on the fence about whether it’s an asteroid, whether it’s a comet, or whether it’s like a weird iceberg of frozen hydrogen.
There’s some really out there ideas. I mean, not to mention that people think that they’re spacecraft, but prove it. And then Atlas, as we talked about, has different ratios of carbon dioxide to water, different ratios of carbon monoxide to water, ratios of even the metals that we’re starting to see in them.
It’s again. And so now I want 10, I want 100. I want to see, because then we can completely reset our perspective on what solar systems are made of.
Like right now here in the solar system, we have different classifications for asteroids.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah.
Fraser Cain: There’s the metal ones. There’s the carbonaceous chondrites. But there’s a ton of different flavors of them even.
And I’m sure we’ll get to this place, maybe 10 years down the road, 20 years down the road, where it’s like, oh, it’s another hydrogen iceberg. Oh, it’s another, you know, titanium asteroid, right?
Dr. Pamela Gay: The question is going to be, why doesn’t our solar system form hydrogen icebergs? Or is it simply that we haven’t discovered them yet? Because they’re so far out in the Oort cloud.
And we’re learning more and more about how violent star forming regions are. My favorite story of the year so far is a baby star in a star forming region about 440 light years away, spun up jets, as baby stars do, and ignited a nearby cloud of gas and basically slapped itself in the face with the shockwave from this. And it distorted the disk.
And so you have these remarkably violent things that are happening to stars and by stars to themselves, apparently.
Fraser Cain: Yeah, planets to planets, stars to planets, planets to stars.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. Yeah. World’s getting ripped off.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. The universe is throwing all this stuff at us. Yeah.
And now we just have to spot it and study it. It’s awesome. Yeah.
Yeah. Who needs interstellar spacecraft now? We don’t even need to go to another star system.
Everything we could ever want is being hurled in our direction. We just have to pay attention. Very cool.
Thanks, Pamela. And I’m sure this is good. We’re going to do probably another update when it’s on its way out and we’ve sort of learned all we can.
We’ll do a proper, okay, what did we learn about 3i Atlas? But for now, hopefully this whets everybody’s appetite and you’ll continue to watch Slackjawed as we learn more about this interstellar interloper. Thanks, Pamela.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Thank you, Fraser. And thank you to all our patrons. I completely have not downloaded your names because I’ve been working on setting up the site.
So what’s going to happen is I am going to read your names. And having looked at how Fraser does this to try and learn lessons from him, I am going to come back and read your names with the names going down the screen so that the pronunciation is destroyed but the actual words are there. So this will be recorded later.
And we’re going to improve how we do this. Changes are coming to Patreon. Please go check out everything.
I’ve been posting a bunch of free posts over there talking about what we have planned. We’re going to be learning how to take advantage of that Go Live feature. And there is a new, I have to math that, Q&A coming that is distinctly different from what Fraser does because it’s literally going to be me taking the questions you ask that require math and working the math on camera.
Fraser Cain: That’s amazing.
Dr. Pamela Gay: All right. Thanks, Pamela. Thank you.
Fraser Cain: We’ll see you next week.
Dr. Pamela Gay: All right. Bye-bye, everyone.
Live Show
Normally we try to end the season on a high note. But there’s unfolding news that we just HAVE to cover before we leave you for the summer. NASA’s new budget is here, and it’s 25% smaller. We’ll cover what the changes are and try to understand the implications. It’s a bad decade to be a researcher. We’re going to look at why, and what US cuts will mean for the world.
Show Notes* Podcast Update * Website and Patreon Changes * NASA New budget * Missions affected: + OSIRIS-REx Apophis mission + Mars Sample Return + Earth science missions (Terra, Aqua, Aura, DISCOVER) * Education and outreach funding is cut to zero. * DEI programs and teacher training (like REACH) are eliminated. * Impact of Budget Cuts * International Perspective * Artemis and Human Exploration * Call to Action * Behind the Scenes and Summer Plans + Website redesign and content improvements are underway. + A fundraiser is tentatively scheduled for the weekend of October 11. + The team will focus on new projects and development during the break. + Hosts express gratitude to editors, the production team, moderators, Patreon supporters, and all listeners.
TranscriptFraser Cain: Welcome to AstronomyCast, your weekly facts-based journey through the Cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I’m Fraser Cain, I’m the Publisher of Universe Today. With me, as always, is Dr. Pamela Gay, a Senior Scientist for the Planetary Science Institute and the Director of CosmoQuest. Hey, Pamela, how are you doing?
Dr. Pamela Gay:I am doing well. This is our last episode before summer hiatus. I am planning this summer to upgrade our website to Divi5, so if any of you out there want anything specific added to our website, drop us a message.
Fraser Cain: Right on.
Dr. Pamela Gay: We’ve just swapped over our Patreon so that I no longer do public messages. I do free and paid subscriber messages, so go join our Patreon, get regular updates, even if you join for free.
Fraser Cain: Yes. This is really important. While you’re listening to this, Patreon allows you to just follow a creator for free.
For example, on AstronomyCast, Pamela sends out tons of information, and most of it is just freely available. A lot of the stuff that we do is just free, and you don’t have to subscribe. It’s the same thing over on my Patreon for Universe Today.
Almost all of the content that we release is released for free and public. It has longer versions of our news stories, longer versions of our Q&As, longer versions of the interviews, and it’s all just free. Why do we do this?
We do this because if you’re using social media or if you’re using YouTube or all these kinds of things, these are walled gardens that are trying to keep you in, and they can change the algorithm and cause us no end of grief at a moment’s notice. But if you use Patreon, then we have a direct relationship. When we provide new information or create a new version of the show or want to give you some other cool content, we can connect directly and send it to you.
So, again, there’s no commitment. You just go to Patreon.com slash AstronomyCast and then just follow us for free. I don’t know if we’re doing this with AstronomyCast, but on the Universe Today one, we’ve got a custom podcast feed that has additional content in it, and it’s also free, and yet is way better.
You just have to follow that, and now you’re getting this additional content. Obviously, we’d love it if you became a patron, but even so, the thing that’s most important to us is that we have a direct connection to you, and it’s not intermediated by YouTube or Twitter or anything, that we put out a message and you receive the message because you’ve chosen to listen to us. So that’s why we’ve got that, and please go there and do it.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. So this summer, we aren’t going to be producing new episodes, but the website is getting a major refresh. I’m going to go through and enhance a lot of our audio because there are tools that exist today that did not exist when we started doing this show, where I can just run it through a machine learning algorithm, not generative AI, machine learning, they are not the same.
And it will find the noise and make it dead without removing the parts of my voice and Fraser’s voice that we want to keep. And I’m also going to be planning for a giant fundraiser that we’re tentatively scheduling for the weekend of October 11th, because we have recognized with CosmoQuest and everything else we do, there is no longer going to be any federal funding for this kind of stuff. It’s gone.
It’s dead. That is the topic of this episode.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Well, this will be part of the conversation. So like, hang tough.
We’re going to bring this up as part of the conversation.
Dr. Pamela Gay: October 11th. Save the date.
Fraser Cain: All right. Now, before we get into this episode, I need to issue about a thousand caveats because it is going to be a very controversial episode. And I know we’re going to get emails from people who are saying that this is overly politicized.
But the reality is that this is news. This is financial information. This is the new budget for NASA.
And this is going to have implications for science. And I think some people are going to say we’re going to be fear mongering. You know, I am going to do my absolute best to rein in the emotions of this episode so that we focus on the facts.
And I think that, you know, our audience, there are sort of two political factions here. There is a there is a one faction that is for the current administration and there’s another faction that is against the current administration. That’s fine.
Right. Like, feel free to disagree. But I think everyone who’s listening to this is pro space exploration and pro science.
And that is our agenda. Right. That is that is our bias.
That’s where we’re going to put our thumbs on this is that we are pro space exploration and pro science. We are not against these things. We’re pro the scientific method.
So that’s the first thing is that this conversation can be held as much as possible in that vein, which is that we’re going to try and just convey the information, going to try to minimize the emotion, even though we are definitely feeling emotion. And we’re going to try to give you something that you can understand what’s going to happen coming forward. The other thing that I think we’re willing to do is sort of explain, you know, provider disclosures.
The first thing is like, I’m Canadian, I’m not American. And while Canada is entrenched in a lot of negotiations with the United States, we have a an astronaut, part of Artemis 2. We build arms and put them on everything that we have all kinds of existing obligations.
One of the instruments on board James Webb. There’s also sort of, you know, a renaissance in hiring scientists happening in Canada right now, an increase in our budgets for space exploration that is coming as a direct result of this, you know, I hate to use the word opportunity for Canadian research firms. So keep that in mind that, you know, when I say things, it might be that I am unintentionally being Canadian when I sort of consider the perspective of this.
Pamela, you have your own caveats that I think we should really definitely get through here, which is that, you know, you are funded in part by government programs that are going to go away.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. So, so my funding has always been a wild mix of different sources. Right now, my federal grant funding is about the lowest it’s been other than during the pandemic.
And so I’m not going to be as hard hit as many of my colleagues. So I’m dealing with survivor guilt more than I’m dealing with terror and fear. But I am watching the people I have collaborated with for 20 years, leaving NASA, leaving academia, redefining who they are.
So for me, I’m going to figure out how to be okay. That is what I do. But I am watching the people around me suffer and I’m watching the Institute that I work for really, really suffer.
Fraser Cain: So yeah. Right. So like your caveat here is that, you know, the funding, the agency that you work for, the Planetary Science Institute, is going to lose a ton of funding.
Yeah. And you have tons of colleagues and friends who are going to either be laid off, fired, or are taking early retirement. The forms of funding that you have been able to access in the past to do the kinds of education outreach are pretty much going away.
And fortunately, you know, we have support through our patrons. We have the support of various fundraising and the other projects and funding sources that’s going to make sure the Cosmic Quest exists in some form moving forward. But it’s hard not to see all this stuff and not feel like they’re gut punches.
So we are collectively feeling gut punched. And so there. I think that’s all the caveats out of the way.
Let’s proceed. Here’s my introduction. Normally, we try to end the season on a high note, but there is unfolding news that we just have to cover before we leave you for the summer.
NASA’s new budget is here and it’s 25% smaller. We’ll cover what the changes are and try to understand the implications. All right, well, let’s get into this.
So let’s go back in time and sort of get a sense of what is NASA’s historical budget levels for the last couple of years. What is normal for NASA?
Dr. Pamela Gay: Well, NASA’s been struggling more often than not. Its highest budget in history was just over $25 billion. It’s unclear when we’re going to get back there.
That was the 2023 budget.
Fraser Cain: Right. So that’s historically, it’s about 20, what’d you say, 23, 24?
Dr. Pamela Gay: It’s been in the 20s for a long time.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Yeah. And so it had been sort of 20, you know, 24 billion, 23 billion.
And in fact, back during the last Trump administration, there was mild increases to the, to the NASA budget. There was a lot of really interesting planetary science. There was the recommitment to send the human astronauts to the moon.
So and that’s where it’s been. It has been a sort of like a slight increase over time and there’s been a few budget, you know, projects have been canceled and so on. So all right.
So that’s where we’ve been. Then about two months ago, we got a, an announcement from the White House that they had released their skinny budget and this was going to be a sort of shortened version, high level view of what they were going to be resetting the budget at. And then about three weeks ago from when we’re recording this, we got the full budget.
And so now we see in detail what is the amount that the White House administration is hoping that will actually be passed through Congress and the Senate. So what is that sort of baseline? What is the budget that they’re looking for?
Dr. Pamela Gay: 18.8 billion with a significantly more cuts to science and learning opportunities. So things like internships, then cuts to space exploration.
Fraser Cain: All right. So let’s talk about the things that are, yeah, let’s talk about the things that are getting cut.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Um, 19 different space missions that are currently active.
Fraser Cain: Okay. So let’s list a few so people know some of them.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So the, the one that I think is hardest on my heart is the OSIRIS-REx extended mission to the asteroid Apophis. Right. In a couple of years, that mission is actually, was actually supposed to be flying along with an asteroid that’s going to be potentially daytime visible here on the planet Earth.
Fraser Cain: Right. So this is an existing mission. This is the OSIRIS-REx mission.
This brought back a sample of asteroid Bennu to Earth. Now the mission, the plan was to retask this spacecraft that is already in space, that already has propellant to chase down asteroid Apophis, go into orbit and be there when it goes in, does a flyby of Earth, giving us a really good understanding of what happens to a near-Earth asteroid when it makes a flyby of Earth and make observations directly there. So, so they’re just, and so like, I just want to understand this, they’re just canceling it?
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah.
Fraser Cain: They’re just not like the no, like, are they going to just shut down OSIRIS-REx?
Dr. Pamela Gay: And, and it’s, like I said, 19 active missions, it’s 41 planned missions altogether are getting shut down. And this means that the greatest opportunity to get cheap and easy data of an asteroid is one that NASA is going to be ignoring. There was discussion for about three seconds where NASA posted to their website a call for proposals to use the in-storage, completely built Janus missions that had to stay grounded due to changes in the Psyche mission profile.
There were thoughts of how can we use Janus? How can we take advantage of other existing hardware to go take advantage of this amazing opportunity? And when news fully hit that not only are we not launching anything new, but OSIRIS-REx is going to get pulled, I got a notice I never thought I’d get.
My, my planetarium software on my phone sent me a notice to call NASA and complain about this. Not NASA, call the Senate and complain about this.
Fraser Cain: Right. So, you know, some other big ones that I think we should be aware of, the Mars Sample Return mission is essentially canceled.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Juno, Roman.
Fraser Cain: And, you know, that’s not a big surprise because that was sort of starting to get over budget and we were starting to see people were having a hard time making that fit within any budget, even within the existing budget. But there’s a lot of other stuff that I think people are quite fond of. New Horizons, which is currently sort of in interstellar space, trying to potentially find its next target.
Juno, which is exploring Jupiter, then it’s upcoming missions, Da Vinci, Veritas, which are going to be going to Venus. There’s a lot of planetary science missions. But do we know for sure?
Because the other ones, like SeaNancy, Grace Roman, looks like that’s still go.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So what we’re dealing with is a confusing situation because NASA is an executive branch agency and civil servants legally in this country are not allowed to do anything that could be construed as lobbying, which means they’re not allowed to make a case to keep things funded to Congress or representatives. And so the way it normally works is the president puts forward the name of an administrator. Congress confirms the administrator, usually in the first couple of months, if not sooner, of a presidency.
And then that person, Bridenstine was an amazing example of this, would go to Congress and say, we need to do these changes. We have to do this. And that person, behind the scenes in some of the best cases, would also go to bat fighting the president to keep things funded.
Right now, we don’t have that political appointee, that person who is legally allowed to lobby. Well, it’s not technically lobbying, isn’t technically allowed to advocate. We don’t have that allowed to advocate person.
Janet Petro, who’s the acting administrator, is a civil servant. She is required by law to do what the president says. And this means that right now, we are in a situation where it appears that NASA is obeying in advance, where Congress hasn’t passed a budget.
Congress determines the budget, determines what is funded. A mission isn’t canceled until its budget line is canceled by Congress. This is why Viper is canceled, but not canceled-canceled.
Fraser Cain: Right. Yeah. And I think it’s really important to be clear that there is, you know, everything we’re talking about here is the budget that the White House has been requested.
The possibility is that Congress and the Senate will refuse, will vote a different budget in, that will stand, and then it’ll be business as usual for NASA and these missions will get cut. But I think, you know, it’s been pretty safe to say so far, we’ve seen that Congress and the Senate, because they’re, you know, in the same political group as the president, have done, have sort of fallen in line. And so this, you know, although there could be something different that happens, I, you know, I’m not sure where I would place my odds right now.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah, it’s, it is a difficult thing to understand on many different levels. Currently, as we record this on June 30th at 1.30 in the afternoon Central Time, they are doing various votes on the Senate floor over amendments and riders to the overarching budget bill that the president is pushing for. A few Republicans have said no to the bill.
One of them, Lisa Murkowski in Alaska, changed her mind after she got a special dispensation that cuts that other states will face won’t affect Alaska. We have seen a few people stand out, like Josh Hawley in Missouri, because they are in rural states. It turns out rural states are going to be particularly hard hit, and they’re concerned that their state budgets won’t be able to keep things maintained.
So at this point, we have Schrodinger’s budget bill.
Fraser Cain: Right, yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: We don’t know what’s going to happen.
Fraser Cain: And when we come out sort of the other side of summer, we might go, you know what, you know, false alarm, everything’s fine. You know, the new budget begins in October. And so, so this all has to be sort of settled before then.
But already, I mean, you’re seeing, for example, NASA has put an early retirement option in the hands of people. I think 8% of NASA’s workforce has already taken this retirement option. And, you know, a lot of times these are very senior people who’ve been working in the agency for a long time.
So a lot of institutional knowledge that even if this doesn’t happen in the same way, you’re going to have a hard time just rebuilding that. Okay, you know, right now, we don’t know exactly how it’s all going to play out. You know, someone is going to have to do the unfortunate job of saying, well, I’ve got a fraction of my original budget.
So now I’m going to cancel out all of these missions. What other things are going to be, have their budgets curtailed?
Dr. Pamela Gay: So we see, like I said, 41 cancelled missions, 19 of which are active. We are also seeing upwards of 6,000 civil servant jobs being cancelled. These are people who are career bureaucrats working to advance NASA’s mission programs, engineers, grant managers, every different layer of the Institute.
Fraser Cain: Right. And then, you know, I mentioned, you know, 8% have already taken a buyout. So, you know, that’s the kind of thing that you’ll see.
Sort of the, you know, the way things were stated was, you know, here’s the first version, and then next comes the actual layoffs. And so I think a lot of people are saying, well, I’m going to take this more orderly exit before I have to take the disorderly exit.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. So in the best of possible worlds, we are going to come back in September. The Congress, House of Representatives and Senate will have figured out something that isn’t the, it’s literally called the Big Beautiful Bill.
It’s a ridiculous name. They will have figured out something else, and science as it stands will be maintained. No one really thinks it’s going to be that simple.
We think that there could be particular things that survive. But, and this is a timeless statement I’m about to make. If you are in the United States or you are a U.S. citizen abroad, call your elected officials for your region and tell them you want to see the United States fund science. Historically, the Republicans have done a great job with this. There, there’s no reason, however, not to ask for more money for science because we are 0.3% of the federal budget NASA is. And when you reduce down to how much science is funded and recognize NSF is much smaller.
Fraser Cain: Yeah, we haven’t talked about NSF. Let’s, we’ll get back to that in a second. All right.
So, so I guess, you know, we’re talking about the cut of the workforce. We’ve talked about planetary science. Let’s talk about earth science.
This is where some of the deepest cuts have happened.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So earth science is basically going away. I don’t know how else to frame it. So on the list of missions going away, we have Terra.
We have Aqua. We have Aura. I’m scanning through trying.
We have Discover, which is my favorite science mission.
Fraser Cain: And then there’s like, obviously there’s, there’s missions in the, in the works that are going to get, you know, there’s the new Landsat mission that’s coming up. So there’s a bunch of this stuff, you know, effectively, there’s going to be very little earth science being contributed by NASA. And you can imagine, you know, if NOAA took over that role, whatever, but, but NOAA is getting its cuts as well.
So, you know, just in general, this, this, you know, NASA’s role in helping us understand planet earth is being severely curtailed.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Um, education, earth science is getting cut just to add numbers to that from a FY 24, 2.1 to FY 26, they are looking at 1.0. Right.
Fraser Cain: So, you know, and again, we don’t know exactly what’s going to happen, but you know, all of those missions, like you, you have to take budget away from the people who are maintaining the existing spacecraft or take budget away from the people who are building the new spacecraft, uh, new missions, earth monitoring, airplanes that fly into hurricanes, uh, all of that kind of stuff is going to have, is going to be curtailed at some, to some degree that we’re going to find out the details.
Dr. Pamela Gay: I want to hit on hurricanes real fast in particular. Um, USAID had been funding NASA observations of the earth over, uh, areas where the USAID was working and when their budget got cut, all of that earth science got cut. Um, the department of defense had been working in concert with NOAA to do, uh, microwave observations of the planet earth that were used for, uh, weather monitoring.
We also had all of these earth observing missions that were looking at space weather, trying to protect our spacecraft and orbit around the planet, and then looking at our atmosphere as well. What we are going to see is a continued market decrease in quality of, uh, storm predictions at the same time that storms are getting more severe and the loss of the microwave data in particular means that at night, when we often see hurricanes massively increasing in power, we’re not going to have the ability to observe them. And so it is going to be entirely possible that people go to bed with a category two hurricane six hours out and wake up to category five.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. I mean, like, again, I mean, these are like, we don’t know specifically which missions are going to get canceled. We don’t know which missions are going to get shut down.
We don’t know. But I mean, if I told you that you now have one third of your house finances, you know, then you would have to make cuts in your house.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And they’re making those cuts right now. So, so for instance, that microwave data is no longer getting sent out. I believe it’s either effective today or effective next Monday.
So that’s an immediate change that’s going into effect.
Fraser Cain: And then I think a thing that’s, that’s quite sort of for both of us is all the education outreach and that’s just zeroed.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah, it’s zeroed. And one of the more fascinating places that this is getting reflected is in how they’re changing communications. One of the things that research into Twitter has found is if any one Twitter account posts too much like a crazy person with post, post, post, post, people unfollow it.
And so agencies like NASA have taken advantage of this understanding to say, okay, we’re going to have a general account that only posts the most important things. And then we’re going to have all of these sub accounts that allow different missions to get their message across in really interesting ways. Many of us remember fondly the NASA Phoenix mission that basically live tweeted its own death of cold on the surface of Mars.
And these kinds of opportunities to give missions personality and style are only possible when you have mission by mission social media profiles.
Fraser Cain: That part makes me really sad because essentially before you had just the freedom of one small group to just run their own Twitter feed and just use it however they wanted to communicate their stuff. And so now those are all being shut down and everything is being centralized and reviewed in a central authority that is then going to allow stuff to come out of the main NASA feed and a few smaller fees. But you’re going from what was dozens, if not hundreds of separate Twitter feeds into something.
And I think like absolutely, if you put me in charge of managing NASA’s Twitter feeds, I would go through and go, there’s a lot of dead feeds here. People aren’t updating them. Let’s have a policy for this.
But I think if you have a small group that’s working on a mission and they want to talk to the public, they should just be able to do it, right? Because outreach and so on. So anyway, we’re seeing that.
There’s just a lot of funds that NASA spends in making educational material available, interacting with universities, doing a lot of outreach about the work that they’re doing. And I think that brand that we experience of NASA with really cool websites and really amazing real-time data that you can go and access and you can sort of feel like you’re a part of the mission. A lot of that stuff will, you know, there are people at NASA whose only job it is, is to make that stuff all go and work and make people feel enthusiastic.
And that is all getting, you know, the budget is being turned to zero.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And it’s more than just the budget issue. So one of the things NASA and the National Science Foundation have been very good at is recognizing that increased science education is good for the entire world. The more people we have engaged in learning and doing science, the more we can advance civilization.
And there are a lot of places in the United States, because education funds are tied to property taxes, where the schools just don’t have equal opportunity. And NASA and the National Science Foundation prioritized going into these disadvantaged communities and doing educational experiences. And that is now considered DEI, and it is strictly forbidden.
So you have not only massive budget cuts taking place, but you also have this situation where if the school you are serving is minority, majority school, so mostly not white people. If you have a school system that is majority English as a second language, if you have a school system that is majority free school lunches, you’re not allowed to specifically fund them. And so I got an email from USRA, which is one of the major granting bodies for massive NASA and National Science Foundation projects.
And it was letting us all know that REACH, which was a teacher training program, an educational materials development program, was gone.
Fraser Cain Yeah. And there’s a lot of material that’s done for teachers, so that when a teacher is going to be teaching about science, space exploration, astronomy in their classroom, there are all of these resources that they can rely on from NASA to be able to do that part. And, you know, the hope is that you’re going to be able to reach young people and in the schools and get them inspired and excited about and understand the kinds of options, career options that are there for them.
And so all of these resources are just going away. Um, not to mention a lot, you know, again, we don’t really know that the, the, we don’t really know what the implications are going to be for our job as communicators of this stuff. I’ve felt a sort of a silence in the feeds.
So, you know, every day I go through all of the RSS feeds from all the different agencies. NASA wasn’t at the American Astronomical Society meeting this year, this, you know, a month ago. And so there was a fraction of the news that was coming out of the AAS.
I’m not seeing a lot of press releases coming out of NASA anymore. So I’m having to go back to first principles. I’m going to, you know, uh, archive and journals and things like that and finding this, this research, but you can feel that this communication of, of interesting information is as just this tap has, has turned down to a fraction of, of what it was.
All right. We are way over time budget on this one, but who cares? Like we’re just going to roll until this one ends.
Um, all right. So let’s talk about Artemis because this one is, is, this is not surprising to me.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah.
Fraser Cain: And yet, you know, still kind of feels a little weird and sad.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So, so I, I’m going to open this up a little bit broader last week for escape velocity space news. I, I did a deep dive, uh, into Starship after realizing Starship and Rubin Observatory have both been in the works the same amount of time, both of them were supposed to launch in 2019. And it was just an interesting side by side.
Fraser Cain: Right.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And one of the things I realized was Starship has already spent half as much money on its development as SLS. And so while the future projected per mission costs will be significantly less, the development costs aren’t proving to be anticipated. And comparing it instead to new Glenn, we have new Glenn is estimated to be about 68 million per launch currently.
And Starship is at a hundred million per launch currently. And Starship has been blown up 10 times on nine launch attempts. And when the number of blown up vehicles exceeds the number of launch attempts, I have concerns.
Um, so Artemis is trying to move forward where it has made these contractual agreements that are fixed fees. So the company’s trying to fulfill these, these budgets are not getting all the money they need to do their innovation where Starship is, it was, it was supposed to have orbital in 2019. We still haven’t hit orbital.
It was supposed to have already landed crew in 2024. It’s now estimated that between four, instead of the between four and six refueling missions that were originally planned, it’s instead going to take greater than 20. And I need to give a shout out to Dustin over at smarter every day.
Cause he was the first person I found to point this out. And it has now been confirmed with NASA numbers.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Dustin Sandler did a great job of that amazing video. All right.
But, but let’s, let’s talk about like specifically like with Artemis. So a couple things are going to happen. First, the lunar gateway is going to be canceled, even though a lot of the modules are already complete.
Um, we’ve got Artemis two, which is due for launch very soon now. And then we’re going to have Artemis three, which is going to bring the people back to the surface of the moon. And then, and then the Artemis mission is essentially going to be canceled.
The, or at least the, the SLS and the Orion capsule are going to be canceled. And then whatever the future holds will depend on what’s possible with the current space fleet. And, you know, you’re looking at potentially Starship if it, if it functions, uh, or some combination of Falcon heavy or new Glenn, uh, or, you know, and then current landers, you know, obviously Starship can be a lander.
Uh, blue origin has their lander mark too. Yeah. Plus there are the various smaller landers and various science platforms, you know, Firefly, uh, intuitive machines, so on.
So I think that the SLS is done and, you know, we, in theory, Artemis three will be an SLS launches with an Orion on top. It’s going to dock with a Starship that’s already proven that it can land safely on the surface of the moon. Uh, but even that, I mean, we’re seeing the, the launch delays happening with, with Starship, with the various tests.
So, you know, I think that right now is all up in the air. We don’t know how that’s going to play out, but we do know that the SLS is over and the lunar gateway is, is a goner.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Um, I, I am honestly not as 100% on SLS being gone for the very simple reason that Alabama can really lobby well, right. And between Alabama, Texas, and Florida really wanting to keep it alive. Um, Texas is trying to steal the space shuttle from the Smithsonian.
Fraser Cain: Right.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So, so, you know, there’s weird stuff going, right.
Fraser Cain: If there is going to be a battle for the budget, it could very well end up being, you know, starting or continuing with the SLS, since we might see the SLS and the Orion continue on, especially if Starship continues to have challenges in getting into orbit and demonstrating orbital refueling and getting to the moon and a landing on the moon. Like if that, if that pushes out, then people are going to go like, what about the moon? And, and, and so the, who knows, I think you’re exactly right.
That I, that I think what the budget is called for and what will actually happen is one of the places where we could see a lot of action. Now let’s talk about a couple of things that are increasing because there has been an interest in increasing, uh, NASA’s exploration of Mars with people.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yes. So currently, and, and I actually was talking with the program advisor three weeks ago, uh, one of my program officers and our advisor program officers at NASA, um, about things that are still getting funded and science supports human exploration and, uh, rovers, landing systems on moon Mars, as well as, uh, being optimized for machine learning and AI solutions are things that they are interested in funding.
The current thinking is twofold. Uh, on one side, we have people arguing, you need to go to the moon before you go to Mars. On the other side, you have people arguing, let’s just go straight to Mars.
Um, that’s, that’s an argument for the ages ranks right up there with Linux versus windows versus Mac. It’s a religious debate at this point. We are not getting into that.
Fraser Cain: We settled it here on this channel already. So I feel, you know, that’s, that’s already been decided. Everyone’s just going to have to decide if they’re going to be able to, to get up to speed with, with how we feel about this.
Um, yeah, so we, so I think there was an increase in development in spacesuits that could go to Mars, some interested in some other platforms technology. Um, but at the same time, we’re seeing cancellation of advanced propulsion techniques like, um, like nuclear, uh, fission, your propulsion is going away.
Dr. Pamela Gay: That is no longer an idea that’s getting canceled.
Fraser Cain: So a lot of the interesting propulsion ideas that might take you to the mock to Mars are all getting canceled. So I want to sort of stop this part of the conversation. And you did a little bit more research just to talk about how the world’s space agencies are sort of compared to NASA and what we might see as they respond.
So can you give us a sense of, of just like what other people are, you know, how does the rest of, cause I think, you know, a lot of people feel like, why is this NASA’s job to do all this? They’re just, the United States is just one country. What’s Canada doing about this?
What’s China doing about this? What’s, what’s Europe doing about this? So what, what are the other nations doing?
Dr. Pamela Gay: So, so I, I love Canada. I’ve worked with you for, for longer than I’ve known my husband and my husband is also Canadian. And somehow you both went to university together and didn’t know each other.
Fraser Cain: We were in the same engineering, like literally the same engineering program at UBC and didn’t know each other.
Dr. Pamela Gay: The morning they discovered this was absolutely hilarious. One of, one of my favorite breakfast conversations. Yeah.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Like, where’d you go to school? I was like, what, what, what year?
1980, you know, what? 1999. Me too.
What program? Engineering. Wait a minute.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. It was, it was a wonderful morning. I, I am entirely a fan of Canada.
But, but one of the things Canada doesn’t have is a giant budget. Your GDP in 2025 was 2.23 trillion compared to America’s 30.51 trillion. So a, a very solid coming in, still in the top 10 and Canada’s space agency, CSA has a budget of 0.612 billion, 612 million. Call it 612 million.
Fraser Cain: That sounds better than 0.6 billion.
Dr. Pamela Gay: It does, but everyone else has numbers in billions. So I turned you into a decimal billion.
Fraser Cain: Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And so one of the things that we’ve been hearing is Canada is recruiting American scientists. True statement. And Japan is recruiting American scientists and students of the world.
True fact. France, France is going overboard, attracting American scientists, but they’re looking to collect our best and brightest in the few to few tens of people. And the problem is the United States has the largest GDP in the world.
We’re at 30.51 trillion. The next closest nation is China at 19.23. Impressive can actually compete. The next closest is Germany with 4.74 trillion. And so when you start looking at this level of difference in gross domestic product, the next set of numbers I’m going to give you totally makes sense. So the European space agency had a total budget converted from euros to US dollars today of 9.03 billion. So their total budget and NASA’s budget cuts are the same order of magnitude.
So the European space agency would have to double their budget, more than double their budget to compensate for what we’re cutting here in the United States. JAXA is at 1 billion. ISRO is at 1.5 billion. The budget for all these partners, JAXA, ESA, ISRO, and CSA, the total budget for all those partners is 12.2 billion.
Fraser Cain: Right.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So they’d have to increase their combined budget by 50%, increase it so it would need to be 150% of what it currently is to compensate for cuts. And that’s just not something that can happen. The one place where we can see things compensate is in China, where their civilian budget in 24, which was the most recent I could find, the civilian budget for space was 14.15 billion. And they have a significantly larger amount in defense. And so we’re actually in this situation where when we were starting in this field, we were seeing Chinese scientists coming to America. I went to university with a bunch of Chinese scientists.
And now we’re seeing American scientists born and raised getting recruited to go to Peking University and other institutes to do science there. And I had someone ask me yesterday if we’re going to see American scientists, rocket scientists in particular, get recruited by Germany in a reciprocation of what happened post-World War II. And that’s entirely possible.
Fraser Cain: Yeah, of course.
Dr. Pamela Gay: ESA has major facilities in Garching, Germany, and currently has 300 job openings.
Fraser Cain: Yep.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Look at their website. Apply.
Fraser Cain: All right. I think we need to wrap this up. I think it’ll be interesting.
Probably when we come out the other side of summer, two months from now, a lot of these unknowns will have been solved. And what I would like to do, hopefully, is that we can give a less vibes-based episode and a more now just hit retrospect what happened. At that point, the big beautiful bill should be passed.
And then NASA and the various agencies across the US will have figured out which things are getting cut. And we will be able to follow on. But I think, and this is back to what the intro that I gave at the beginning, which is that we try to maintain a neutral stance here.
But the thing that we all agree on is space and science are important, that education is important, that these are the kinds of things. So if you’re an American and these changes are concerning to you, then our recommendation is to have a chat with all of your local representatives at every level and hash it out with them. And that if you have better recommendations, if you want things to go in a different direction, it’s up to you to have these conversations.
And now is the chance to do it before this is all locked in and it’s just the way as it always was and everything just moves on. So this is your chance to take action for the kind of world, the kind of universe that you want to live in. Pamela, thank you.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Thank you, Fraser.
Fraser Cain: Do you have some patrons?
Dr. Pamela Gay: I do. So this week, I would like to thank Alan Gross, Andrew Allen, Antasaur, AstroSets, Bebop, Apocalypse, Bob Zatzky, Brett Moorman, Bruce Amazine, Smansky, Cooper, David, David Rossetta, Dr. Whoa, Ed, Fairchild, just as it sounds, Frederick Salvo, Galactic President, Scooper Star, McScoopsalot, Glenn McDavid, Greg Vylde, Jay, Alex Anderson, Jarvis Earl, Jeff Hoinworter, Jim Schouler, Joanne Mulvey, John Fayes, J.P. Sullivan, Katie Byrne, Kim Barron, Kinsaya Panfenko, Les Howard, Mark Phillips, Matt Rucker, MHW1961, Super Symmetrical, Michael Wichman, Mike Heisey, Noah Albertson, Paul D.
Disney, Peter, Rajev, Akari, Robbie the dog with a dot, Ron Thorson, Sachi Takaba, Scott Bieber, Sergei Monolov, Stephen Veidt, Taz Talley, The Brain, Tiffany Rogers, Tricor, and Will Field. Thank you all so much. And we will see you on Patreon all summer.
Fraser Cain: Thanks, everybody, for another wonderful season. Now, as I mentioned, we’ve mentioned, you know, we’re doing a lot of work. In fact, we probably get our best work done during the summer hiatus because we have time to think.
And so, you know, we’re both going to be producing a lot of content over the summer, as well as, you know, new stuff coming from all of our various small projects and so on. So stay tuned for all of that. But thank you, everybody, for your ongoing support.
Thanks for everyone who works on this show, all of the editors, both video and audio and production that helps make this happen. We couldn’t do this without you. Thanks to the moderators who show up in the channel every week and help wrangle and keep things under control.
Thanks to everybody who watches us live and everybody who listens to this podcast on a weekly basis and has done so for, you know, the 18 years, the age of a child who could now drink alcohol in Quebec, in Canada. So thank you, everyone. And we will be back in two months for season 19.
See you then.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Bye everyone.
Live Show
The time has come. The mighty Vera Rubin Observatory has finally come on line and delivered its “first light” images. And by Pamela’s rules that means we get to talk about it! So let’s do that! After decades of waiting, we have images from Vera Rubin Observatory!
Show Notes First Light Images:* + Release of three major products: - SkyView Tool: Navigate Rubin’s ultra-high-res images (1 image = 50 standard 4K images) - Galaxy Field: Millions of galaxies at varying redshifts - Trifid-Omega Nebula Region: Detailed star-forming region + Asteroid Discoveries: - In just 10 hours, Rubin identified 2,104 new asteroids - Expected to increase total known asteroids to 5 million - Revolutionizes planetary defense and solar system inventory * Variable Stars & Supernovae: + Detected brightness variations in real-time + Rubin will detect 4 million supernovae, including 1 million Type Ia + Key for refining cosmic distance ladder and understanding dark energy * Telescope & Camera Tech: + 8.4-meter telescope with F/1.234 focal ratio (extremely “fast”) + 3200 megapixel camera, 10-micron pixels, 189 CCDs + Field of view: 10 square degrees + 30-second exposures reaching 20–24.7 magnitude + Produces 1,000 images per night → 2 million/year * Legacy Survey of Space and Time (LSST): + Rubin will image entire southern sky every 3–4 nights + Every point will be captured ~800 times over 10 years + Enables a “video” of the sky to detect transients, movements, and rare events * Scientific Goals (Four Pillars): + Mapping the structure of the Milky Way + Inventory of the Solar System + Understanding dark matter and dark energy + Exploring the transient optical sky (supernovae, variable stars, etc.) * Data & Infrastructure: + Collects 20 terabytes/night, totaling 15 petabytes over the survey + Real-time data transfer from Chile to the U.S. (SLAC, Stanford), and Europe + Will issue alerts on transient events like supernovae and moving objects + Public access to time-tagged image archives for long-term studies * Impact & Future Potential: + Enables unprecedented monitoring of: - Asteroids, comets, & interstellar objects (dozens expected annually) - Rare stellar phenomena (e.g., disappearing stars, exotic variables) - Galactic halo structures through RR Lyrae stars + Synergy with missions like Euclid and the upcoming Nancy Grace Roman Telescope
TranscriptFraser Cain: AstronomyCast, Episode 761 The Vera Rubin Observatory. Welcome to AstronomyCast, our weekly facts-based journey through the cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I’m Fraser Cain, I’m the publisher of Universe Today.
With me, as always, is Dr. Pamela Gay, a Senior Scientist for the Planetary Science Institute and the Director of CosmoQuest. Hey Pam, how are you doing?
Dr. Pamela Gay: I am deeply regretting checking out social media prior to this recording, because today is a day that reminds me it is our next episode where we will contemplate cuts coming to NASA and the National Science Foundation, but…
Fraser Cain: Yeah, and the timing should be pretty good, because we know a lot more now, so we’ll be able to cover it in all the grim details.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah, there are a lot of people actively crying right now in the astronomical community. Right now!
Fraser Cain: Next week, it will not be a happy episode, it will be a sad episode. Well, the time has come. The mighty Vera Rubin Observatory has finally come online and delivered its first light images, and by Pamela’s rules, that means we get to talk about it.
So let’s do that, and we will talk about it in a second, but it’s time for a break. And we’re back! Alright Pamela, wow.
What a week.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah, yeah. It has been all the highs, all the lows, all the chaos, but today we’re going to focus on one good thing, which is the stubbiest looking giant telescope on the planet.
Fraser Cain: Yeah, the largest camera on the planet, the fastest big telescope on the planet. The superlatives go on. It’s interesting watching the coverage from the mainstream media about Vera Rubin, because they’re oohing and aahing over the pretty pictures.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Right, but that’s not what it’s there for.
Fraser Cain: That’s not what it’s about. And so it was incredible. They were great pictures.
I love some pretty astronomical pictures, but what I think, what we hope to convey in this episode is why this is one of the most ludicrous astronomical instruments that’s ever been delivered to scientists and how this is going to change astronomy. So let’s, hmm, where do we want to start? Like, do you want to talk about the observatory or do you want to talk about sort of first light?
Let’s talk about first light first. So we got the news, I guess the embargo broke, not broke, the embargo wrapped up, was released, on Sunday night at midnight Eastern Standard Time. For me, that was nine o’clock.
And so I could finally, we saw the first pictures. And, you know, I’m sure many people in the astronomical community had already seen them. People who follow embargoes, you know, had looked at the pictures.
I refuse to look at embargoed stories. And so I saw them for the first time, like everybody else when that embargo lifted. And so you saw them Sunday night and then we saw the full press conference Monday morning.
So what were we looking at when we saw those pictures? And hopefully, you know, people who listen to this episode, you remember the pictures, you can bring them out. What are we seeing?
Dr. Pamela Gay: So they released three significant things. Their SkyView data tool that allows you to take these images. One of the things they kept pointing out is a typical 4k image is 2% of an image that Ruben takes.
So you can’t just enjoy no matter how big your monitor is, all of one of these images at the same time on one monitor. So they released a SkyView image explorer that allows you to pan, scroll, zoom, all of those things. And they released two basic images, one that was a field of literally millions of galaxies, which was kind of awesome.
And they varied in redshift. So we were seeing everything from relatively nearby objects out to the distant extremes of our universe. They also released a image of the Trifid Omega Nebula region.
So star forming region galore, all of the pink pretty details, all of the black globule type stuff floating in front of it. And so we had these two different images, and then they highlighted some of the things in the galaxy image, because the Trifid Omega image, it’s a lot harder to highlight these things in. What they were highlighting is each deep image they showed us was actually a whole series of individual images taken across multiple filters.
This telescope has five different filters. And as asteroids moved through the field, they were able to identify not two, not three, but 2,104, which is a lot and kind of amazing. And these objects ranged from near earth objects, not putting us in any danger, out to the far edge of the asteroid belt.
They couldn’t really see much further out into the solar system because they only had 10 hours of exposure. And you start to just not being able to resolve the motion that well. But they also showed us highlights of variable stars.
Now for the variable stars, you have to look in the same filter for each image. So all of us had a bit of a sad moment, because we didn’t exactly get beautiful images of these variables pulsating in brightness, as all of us, especially me and my variable star loving heart would desire. Instead, we got, here’s an image, here’s several hours later, here’s an image, and you could see several tens of percent brightness change.
This is a machine that is designed to identify everything that flickers, flares and moves in the night. And they demonstrated on Monday that this telescope is here to do its job.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Yeah. And I think what the general public got from this was, look at these pretty pictures.
It’s taking beautiful pictures of galaxies, beautiful pictures of nebulae. But those of you who have been following images from James Webb, images from Hubble, you’ve seen what the Gemini telescope, Gemini North, South, the DESI survey, the Very Large Telescope, the Keck Observatory, the Large Binocular, you’re familiar with pretty pictures of space. Yeah.
And so for me, they were great. I liked them, but they were not the point. The point was the conversation about the asteroids, because that was what really sort of sharpened our idea and our understanding.
And what that telescope did in 10 hours of observing one tiny little patch of the sky is ludicrous. So on average, astronomers report about 20,000 new asteroids a year. We know of about a million asteroids total.
You know, a tiny fraction of those are the near-Earth asteroids. The ones that are crossing are the Earth’s orbit at some point in their journey around the Sun. And Vera Rubin, in 10 hours of observing, found 2,000 previously unknown asteroids.
And so in other words, the expectation is that it is going to find 10 times the number of asteroids that the rest of the astronomical community finds combined. That it is going to find 5 million asteroids over the course of its 10-year mission.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Sort of. They anticipate they will bring the total number of known asteroids to 5 million.
Fraser Cain: Right. So another 4 million, sorry. Yeah.
Yeah. So that was the kind of thing that I was really hoping that they would talk more about, and then talk about that in terms of supernovae, talk about that in terms of variable stars. They hinted at it, but I think they just want to show people like really beautiful pictures and get across the sense of the magnitude of the camera, which is that it is a really big camera.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yes. Yeah. It’s ludicrous.
This camera has a 10-square-degree field of view, and it has 3,200 megapixels per image. They’re planning to take 30-second exposures that are still getting down to like 20th magnitude, which is insane. And they’re planning to do about 1,000 science images per night, 2 million images per year.
They are imaging the entire sky every three to four nights. It is ludicrous.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. And I think the part that I hope people will walk away with is that it’s going to be observed, as you said, every couple of nights it’s going to do this full pan of the entire sky. And then it’s going to come back and it’s going to do it again, and it’s going to do it again, and it’s going to do it again.
And it is going to, over the course of its 10 years of operation, it’s going to take a picture of each spot in the sky 800 times. And so, if you want to sort of understand the significance of this, imagine if you could run a video of the night sky where you took a frame that happened every three nights for 10 years, and then you notice something that happened in the sky four years ago. Yeah.
And then you go, oh, wait, does anybody have, you know, we noticed there’s a new supernova remnant over here. Does anybody have archival footage of when that supernova went off? Oh, yeah.
It’s in Vera Rubin. Let’s go back to that date. And you can look back in time and watch that you could make a video where you just put up one frame per, you know, whatever, 30 frames a second of the sky and run it for many seconds.
You would watch all of the asteroids zipping past, all of the Kuiper Belt objects drifting through the field of view, all of the, you know, the planet nines, all of the supernova going off, all of the variable stars that are across that entire field of view, stars disappearing because they’ve just directly collapsed into supernovae, supermassive black holes coming online because they’re now feasting on new material that’s falling in, previously active supermassive black holes shutting down because there’s no more food to eat. So it’s just this way to see the universe in this dynamic way that nobody has ever been able to do. Every single survey that we’ve ever had up until this point has been a, like a one-time survey.
You take one picture of every spot in the sky and you call it a day. And that has been, that’s been a game changer for astronomy. So now you’re not taking one, you’re taking 800 of every single spot in the sky at a level of depth that rivals the capability of the largest telescopes in the world.
So it’s all bonkers. Like, I, like, I hate that we’re having to use these superlative, like it’s crazy. It’s bonkers.
It’s madness. And yet it really is. And I think people aren’t going to really appreciate how much this is going to change astronomy until we’re a couple of years into this and you’re like, oh yeah, another thing that people found on Vera Rubin.
Dr. Pamela Gay: It’s going to, I think it’s going to be more like six months to a year when we start seeing it. This is one of the large telescopes in the world. It’s 8.4 meters. There are a bunch of telescopes in the eight to nine meter class, but what makes this one so weird looking and awesome is any of you amateur astronomers out there know that the focal ratio in a lot of ways tells you how quickly you can take an image. So if you have a super small focal ratio, you can take a wide field, super fast images, but you’re usually have a trade-off that you end up with really bad resolution when you do that. Well, the Rubin observatories, some in the telescope has a focal ratio of F 1.234. It is the stubbiest little telescope I have ever seen. And because of how it’s built, they have 0.2 arc seconds per pixel. So they are super saturating their pixels. They, it’s insane.
They have 10 micron pixels on their CCDs and they have 189 4K by 4K science CCD chips. These are not CMOS, these are CCD chips. They were saying in the live stream that the camera is the size of a car, but weighs a whole lot more.
Fraser Cain: Right. Because it’s like solid electronics. Doesn’t have the air inside where the people might go.
Dr. Pamela Gay: No, it’s wild just how different this observatory is. And the reason it was built this way was once upon a time, it was funded through a combination of private funding, NASA funding, National Science Foundation funding and Department of Energy. Today it’s private funding, DOE and NSF.
I’m not sure what happened to the NASA funding. I no longer question these things. But that combination of funding was in part to do the things that we expect all new telescopes to do, looking at dark energy, looking at dark matter.
But then it was also trying to protect our planet because the total fraction of asteroids known, we knew wasn’t that great. The number of potentially hazardous to our ability to continue as a civilization number of asteroids known wasn’t that great. And with its high sensitivity, with its large field of view, with its constantly repeating the sky, it’s going to find everything moving.
Fraser Cain: Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And help protect us.
Fraser Cain: All right. We’re going to talk about this some more, but it’s time for another break. And we’re back.
So I want to give some other just interesting numbers. For example, we currently know of about, say, 2,000 to 3,000 type 1a supernovae. And we have been finding these for 30, 40 years.
These are the supernovae that have created the discovery of dark energy. Nobel Prizes all around. And each one of these type 1a supernovae is so precious because there’s just so few of them that have ever been found.
They’re a very rare event. Well, Vera Rubin is expected to find a million of them.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. 4 million supernovae in general, they expect to find.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. And a million with a million type 1a supernovae. You’ve got all of these variable stars that are going, they’re changing in brightness and that there are some really rare ones like RR Ellari and even like double RR Ellari stars that are really important to astronomers as sort of standard candles as well as ways to measure the expansion of the universe and so on.
Again, we will know of so many more of them because it’s not just seeing things that happen on a regular basis. Those exist. There’s the Zwicky Transient Facility, which is a telescope that is scanning the sky every couple of nights.
It’s found tons of asteroids and so on. But this is both an incredibly powerful telescope. It could stand up and take as good of a picture as any telescope that’s out there on the planet.
And yet it can do it in 15 seconds and move on. Right. Like done.
Next. Done. Right.
That’s where this thing just comes into, pardon the pun, focus is that it’s not just about the power of this telescope. It is about the speed and how much of the sky it’s going to be able to keep track of.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. And to give you some ideas of the science with RR Ellari stars, they are horizontal branch stars, which means all of them are more or less the same actual luminosity. And when we look at them, we can identify them by how their light changes over time in very distinctive ways.
And if we can measure how bright they appear and we know how luminous they are, we know where they are. And because our Ellaris are low metallicity stars, we’re going to be able to use them to map out the distribution of field stars in the halo. Right now we’re doing great work with, with, uh, dwarf cerulean galaxies, dwarf elliptical galaxies, globular clusters, all of these groups of stars that exist in the halo.
This is going to allow us to see these fainter objects. They’re fainter than Cepheids, these lower metallicity objects, and actually see the true extent of our galaxy in all directions that aren’t blocked by dust and gas. And that in itself just has me super, super excited.
Fraser Cain: Now, one of the things that I, that I did find interesting with the presentation that they gave and the, and the images that they showed, in many cases they were done with dozens, if not hundreds of exposures in the same area. And that’s sort of like, they were showing you what it might be like if you just compressed all those 800 images into one shot, which is interesting, but then you sort of lose that time dimension when you’re looking at all of that. You’re essentially using all the separate images to improve the, the data and remove the noise, which is great and important.
But, um, you know, in addition to this sort of the general survey, you know, this is the LSST. Right.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Large Legacy Survey of Space and Time.
Fraser Cain: Right. They’re going to do some special operations where they’re going to look at some specific areas and they’re going to observe them very intensely on a very rapid cadence. And so we’re also going to see stuff where like maybe there’s some place where we’re, you know, trying to, trying to see how variable stars are changing or a place where we know there’s a lot of supernovae going off and get a much better sense as well.
So it does not. And, and I think sort of the images that they shared are sort of more in line with that philosophy that you’re, you’re keeping the telescope locked on one area and going click, click, click, click, click, and taking a bunch of pictures. So for places that are, you know, in addition to just this, the, the, the full survey of the sky, we’re going to get some regions and that will almost be the equivalent of Vera Rubin’s, um, Hubble Deep Field.
Yes. Right. That it’s going to take a place that is very dynamic where maybe things are changing down to the second or the minute and see what you can capture if you just take picture after picture after picture of that same area.
So, so there’s a lot of other interesting science that’s going to come out of this as well than, than all of the stuff that we’ve been talking about.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And they, they really designed this around four, they call them pillars of science. And, um, it’s that standard question of where is all of the dark matter and how is dark energy changing the shape of space over time? And so with their image after image, they’re, they’re starting out hitting low twenties in magnitude, which is ludicrous to think about.
Fraser Cain: And then just for comparison, the, the European Southern Observatory, I think they’re at 27. Hubble can do 32, 30. Yeah.
Anyway.
Dr. Pamela Gay: But those are with like significant numbers of hours, days there in 30 seconds. Yeah. Hitting, uh, in our, this, this is a Sloan R they’re hitting 24.7 magnitude in a single exposure. Wow. Yeah. So it’s ludicrous.
Um, so, so they’re able to map out galaxies at a whole variety of different distances. And by looking at what was the universe doing in the great distance? What was it doing in the middle distance?
What is it doing nearby? What are all these galaxies doing? How is the shape and structure of large scale structure of the universe changing?
That can tell us how dark energy has changed over time. So this is working in lockstep with the Euclid mission, with the hopefully to be completed Roman observatory, all these missions and this program are working together to solve dark matter, dark energy. But in addition to that, it’s literally inventorying our solar system.
It is finding the near earth asteroids. We need to watch out for it is looking to figure out just how often do alien asteroids plunge through our solar system. If there’s a planet nine through N out in the outskirts of our solar system, it will find it or them.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. It’s expected to find dozens of interstellar objects every year. You know, we know of Oumuamua and Borisov and that’s it.
It’s going to find dozens, if not hundreds of these every year.
Dr. Pamela Gay: If we have the models, correct. And that’s the thing. This is going to tell us if we have our models correct for things we don’t fully understand.
And so we’re getting discrete data on where are the centaurs, how many of them are there, what all these different things. It just blows my mind. You’re literally going to have more data on what’s going on in our solar system than you could monitor on a computer monitor.
Fraser Cain: All right. We got to take another break. Okay.
And we’re back. All right. So where do things go from here?
So we’ve seen first light, but they’re still in the commissioning phase. The survey has not begun yet. So what is going to be happening next?
Dr. Pamela Gay: So they’re continuing to figure out their entire pipeline process and commission the telescope. So what they’re doing is they’re figuring out everything from how does the system flex depending on where it’s pointed on the sky. This is something every telescope does.
They’re physical objects in a world with gravity, they flex. So it’s figuring that out. It’s figuring out how focus changes over time.
It’s figuring out what are the details for getting the data reduction pipeline working. They’re pulling down terabytes per night.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. They’re going to pull 500,000 terabytes and they’re transferring this all in real time from the telescope to the servers in the US. So they’re not storing it locally on the telescope.
They’re moving it right away and then processing it in real time to give astronomers alerts. We just found a supernova here. We just saw an asteroid over there.
There’s planet nine over here. And then if people want, they can dig through the data for their own specific things. Show me every image that was taken in this part of the sky over the last 10 years and you can get them all.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And one of the things that truly amazed me is, so with 20 terabytes per night, they were originally thinking we’re not going to be able to keep all the data. We’re going to have to throw stuff out. And that’s one of those things that will make any astronomer curse.
And we thought we were only going to be able to keep data tables because there was just no way all the raw data could be stored. But in the 20 years it’s taken them to get this telescope built, commissioned and out the door, there were delays with the pandemic. There were delays with social unrest.
Working with Cisco systems, taking advantage of new infrastructure built into that part of Chile. This is on the Sarah Fashion Mountain, which the subtitles literally wrote Sarah Fashion during the presser. It was hilarious.
They’re transmitting all the data to Slack here in the United States, the linear accelerator out at Stanford. They’re also transferring information to Europe. There’ll be multiple repositories.
And with their 11 data releases, there’s going to be 15 petabytes of data.
Fraser Cain: Wow.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah.
Fraser Cain: So crazy.
Dr. Pamela Gay: This is completely new layers of data management. There will be 6 million orbits of solar system bodies that they figure out through this survey.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. So I think hopefully this gives you all a good sense of expectation, what to be looking out for. It’s not about the pretty pictures.
It’s about the events unfolding in the sky that we will now be able to capture. And I think the thing that I’m most excited about is the thing that I don’t know about yet. What are the, now that we’re watching everything, I always describe it as we’re finally going to see the things that the universe was doing when we weren’t looking.
Now we’re looking and it’s going to be entirely new phenomena that will be discovered through this process where someone goes, Hey, I just saw a thing and I don’t know what it is. Have we ever seen any of these before? Oh yeah.
Here’s 42 of them in the Vera Rubin data. Let’s figure out what they are. And we’re moving to this sort of additional understanding, but hopefully this will prepare everybody for what comes next, because it is going to be a busy decade.
Dr. Pamela Gay: It really is. And what’s exciting is we have other giant telescopes coming online that will be able to do follow-up observations. We have the square kilometer coming in future years.
The amount of infrastructure scattered around our planet, allowing us to understand our universe is unlike anything we thought we would have when you and I were young. And here’s to hoping that there will be plenty of scientists to get to explore it.
Fraser Cain: Wonderful. Thank you, Pamela.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And thank you, Fraser. And thank you so much to everyone out there funding everything we do. This week, I would like to take a moment to thank Adam Anise Brown, Alexis, Andy Moore, and Astro Bob, Bart Flaherty, Benjamin Mueller, Bresnik, Brian Kilby, Kemi Rassian, Conrad Hailing, Danny McGlitchie, David Green, Disastrina, Dwight Ilk, Evil Melky, Flower Guy, G.
Caleb Saxton, Glenn Phelps, Greg Davis, Helga Bjorkhag, Janelle, Jeanette Wink, Jim McGeehan, J.O., John Herman, Jordan Turner, Kate Sindretto, Kenneth Ryan, Christian Magerholt, Lee Harbourn, Marco Iarrazi, Masa Herleo, Maxim Levitt, Michael Purcell, Mike Dogg, Nick Boyd, Paul Pauline, Middle Ink, Planetar, R.J. Basque, Robert Plasma, Sergio Sanseviero, Scone, Semyon Torfason, Slug, Stephen Miller, The Big Squish Squash, Thomas Gazzetta, Travis C.
Porco, Wanderer M101, Zero Chill, Alan Gross, Andrew Allen. I started reading next week’s names. Thank you all so very much.
We have one more episode this season. It’s not going to be a happy one.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Thanks, everyone. We’ll see you next week.
Bye-bye.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Astronomy Cast is a joint product of Universe Today and the Planetary Science Institute. Astronomy Cast is released under a Creative Commons attribution license. So love it, share it and remix it.
But please credit it to our hosts, Fraser Cain and Dr. Pamela Gay. You can get more information on today’s show topic on our website, astronomycast.com. This episode was brought to you thanks to our generous patrons on Patreon.
If you want to help keep this show going, please consider joining our community at patreon.com slash astronomycast. Not only do you help us pay our producers a fair wage, you will also get special access to content right in your inbox and invites to online events. We are so grateful to all of you who have joined our Patreon community already.Anyways, keep looking up. This has been AstronomyCast.
Anyways, keep looking up. This has been AstronomyCast.
Live Show
It’s almost time for our annual summer hiatus, but before we go, we wanted to direct you towards all the fun and space stuff we’ll be enjoying this summer. We’ve got meteor showers, planets, rocket launches, TV shows, movies! Here’s what’s good.
In a couple of weeks, we’ll go on hiatus, but we want to make sure you are ready for stuff we can anticipate happening.
Show Notes* Space News & Missions + Blue Origin: Building a rocket factory; working on the New Glenn moon-capable rocket (likely launch: Sept). + NASA’s Escapade: Launching two Mars spacecraft with Blue Origin. + Other Missions: TRACERS (NASA–ISRO) and ESA’s Space Rider. * Summer Skywatching + Mercury: Greatest elongation on July 4 — tough to spot, but try before fireworks. + Perseids: Peaks Aug 12–13. Best viewing ~8:30 PM before moonrise (~11 PM). + Delta Aquariids: Aug 29–30, fewer meteors (~20/hour). + No Eclipses/Conjunctions, but still plenty to enjoy under the stars. * Summer Entertainment + Movies: Pamela recommends Superman and Jurassic Park. + TV Shows: Fraser recommends Star Trek: Strange New Worlds (S3); both excited for Foundation and Alien Earth. * They often subscribe briefly to services like Paramount+ or Apple TV to binge and cancel. * Project Focus on content production this summer, including interviews and Space Bites.
TranscriptFraser Cain: AstronomyCast 760 – What’s Happening in Summer 2025? Welcome to AstronomyCast, our weekly facts-based journey through the cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I’m Fraser Cain.
I’m the publisher of Universe Today. With me, as always, is Dr. Pamela Gay, senior scientist for the Planetary Science Institute and the director of CosmoQuest. Hey Pamela, how are you doing?
Dr. Pamela Gay: I have no internet at my house. An animal removed it from the side of the house. We are recording on my laptop right now over at a friend’s house.
Fraser Cain: No. No, I can’t even imagine. I don’t want to even comprehend a world where I can’t use the internet.
Yeah, it’s, it’s like, I would just have to go and cut down trees or something. I don’t know what I’d do. Um, yeah.
So, so we’re going to get into this episode, but we should explain, like, this is the penultimate episode, right? I think we have semi-penultimate episode.
Dr. Pamela Gay: We have three more.
Fraser Cain: We have three more. Well, today’s the 16th.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So we have two more after this.
Fraser Cain: Two more after this. Yeah. Now I’m looking at my calendar.
Um, yes, we have two more after this, the 23rd and the 30th when we record and then we’ll go. And then we will go on to our summer hiatus. Now, normally this is the last episode of the season.
And then we’ve bid you all a fond farewell. And then we see you again in two months when we return from hiatus, but we are switching things up this week. And that’s because something very exciting is going to be happening when we would normally do the last episode and we want to be able to see on top of that.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So, so well, one thing is super exciting and one thing that sort of we’re waiting for information. So next week, I thought it was this week. It got moved from the date.
I originally wrote down, um, next week, Vera Rubin observatory is releasing their first suite of images. So next Monday we will be live streaming that, uh, over on our various channels. We will be recording astronomy cast on Wednesday, and we will be all of the excitement about Vera Rubin observatory.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. So we’ll just give you the update, you know, the, the episode that Pamela won’t let us do until the thing has gone live. Now the thing will be have gone live and then we, she will allow the episode.
So we will talk about, we will talk about that. And then what’s the other, we’re waiting on another mission.
Dr. Pamela Gay: We’re waiting on budget information. So we were going to do a rundown on just what survived, but Congress still hasn’t passed a budget. They may not pass a budget, but we can at least talk about the proposed cancellations, but yes, we’re giving Congress as long as we can.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. All right. It’s almost time for our annual summer hiatus.
But before we go, we wanted to direct you towards all the fun and space stuff. We’ll be enjoying this summer. We’ve got media showers, planets, rocket launches, TV shows, movies.
Here’s what’s good. And we will talk about it a second, but it’s time for a break and we’re back. All right, Pamela, where do you want to start on the, on the fun things that we’re going to be enjoying this summer?
And you should too.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. Yeah. All of you should.
The thing I am most looking forward to and wish that it wasn’t going to be so amazingly hot is Blue Origin is currently looking to launch on August 15th from Florida with their second giant rocket goes towards moon. If everything goes well, their Mark 1 lander will be on board and they will be sending it towards the moon where hopefully it won’t do gymnastics. And we need more rockets that work and work well so that we can switch things up when things go sideways.
And it would be really nice if we could have more than one thing that was astronaut certified. And, and we are starting the pathway towards having another rocket mill built in the United States. And honestly, I just want something not to fall over when it gets to the moon.
That is my goal. Something to get to the moon and not fall over.
Fraser Cain: Right. But things are a little more complicated than that because there is another set of missions that, that Blue Origin has been contracted to launch. And that’s NASA’s escapade mission to Mars.
And that’s two spacecraft. They’re going to be working in concert. They’re going to fly to Mars.
They’re going to help understand atmospheric loss and, and orbit around Mars. And these were originally supposed to launch back late last year, back in late 2024. But of course, New Glenn has slipped.
We’ve only seen one test launch of the rocket, no attempts to actually capture the booster. And they were supposed to launch sometime in March. And this was kind of impressive because the, the New Glenn, like normally you launch when the window opens and the window opened back like November 2024.
And yet New Glenn was like, don’t, Blue Origin was like, ah, don’t worry about it. We’ve, our rocket is powerful enough. We can still make the window if we launch in March.
Well, March passed, we’re not there. So it might be that the next launch is actually going to be the escapade launch on top of, of New Glenn. And so I think that there’s still some sort of uncertainty about that.
I think the, the August 15th date is overly aggressive. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see it not go until September. There’s like a lot of still additional concerns and then sort of a larger concern about, about Blue Origin being able to produce enough upper stages for the rockets.
But you know, if everything goes great, we could watch another New Glenn take off and continue the testing that will move us to this fully, or I guess reusable first stage, but it’s a monster rocket. And, and as you said, it’d be great to see something go to the moon.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. It it’s, it’s glorious. This is another heavy lift vehicle.
This, this is, this is a get us to the moon vehicle.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Yeah. Um, all right.
So we’re doing, we’re doing missions. Are we okay. Okay.
Dr. Pamela Gay: It’s the thing I am most excited about this summer. And if it gets pushed to September, I might actually go to it. I’m not sure I am up to the August heat nor the August crowds, but September I could get excited for a September lunch.
Fraser Cain: Yep. Uh, so have you got any other missions that you’re looking at?
Dr. Pamela Gay: That was it. That was, that was the one I’m a, I’m a simple girl when it comes to rockets.
Fraser Cain: Okay. Um, so the, so there’s a couple of other missions that you might want to keep your eye on. One is NASA’s tracers mission, the tandem reconnection and cusp electrodynamics, reconnaissance satellites.
Um, and those are going to be our earth based monitoring satellites. Uh, they’re going to analyze the McNeil sphere and they’re expected to launch in the summer. Uh, and NASA is doing a collaboration with the Indian space, uh, research organization, and they’ve got their, uh, it’s a synthetic aperture radar system.
So again, that’s looked like it’s going to launch. And then the other one is ESA’s space rider. So there’s a, there’s some, there’s some activity, but it’s actually pretty quiet.
Like I had to dig pretty deep.
Dr. Pamela Gay: This summer is so quiet.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Yeah. So there’s, so I think that’s the, the big one of course is, is new Glenn.
And then, you know, there could very well be more tests of starship. We’ll see whether or not that happens. All right, let’s move on to stuff to see in the sky.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So normally I don’t get very excited about Mercury, but this year it’s kind of amusing because Mercury is going to be at its greatest Eastern elongation, which means it’s towards the East of the sun on 4th of July. And so that’s cool. That’s just deeply, deeply amusing.
Um, and, and so unfortunately, um, when it’s East of the, the sun, it’s going to get lost in twilight. It’s always lost in twilight. So you can get excited about this.
But the reason I’m bringing it up is 4th of July, everyone goes out at least around here and camps on their firework spot before sunset. So this is a chance to go out before sunset and watch the, the sun go down on the horizon first. And then because Mercury is to the East of it, it’s going to go down in the West second.
Um, so while you’re sitting there, putting on your mosquito repellent and enjoying your hot dogs, look for a small dot in the glare. You take sky Safari or something like that to find it with your son. It’s just the perfect, stupid thing to do while you’re waiting for the fireworks to start is try and find Mercury.
Fraser Cain: Right. I’ve only found Mercury once I’ve ever seen it once because I always live with mountains that block my view to both the West and the East. And so I just can’t see them.
Dr. Pamela Gay: I’ve only been able to find it well on the roof of a building. So in particular, if you’re someone lucky enough to get to go watch fireworks from like a hotel sky patio or whatever, get that sunset direction, at least for sunset and find yourself in Mercury.
Fraser Cain: And I’m very accustomed to seeing the planets during the summer. I don’t know why, but they’re shifting into the morning now. So, uh, you should be able to see Venus and Jupiter, Venus and Jupiter both been really bright in the evening for the last few months.
And now they’re lost in the glare of the sun, but they’re going to come out in the Dawn in July. So, you know, if you do camp out and then you wake up the next morning, uh, go outside and you should be able to see Venus and Jupiter and they may get really close, uh, sort of late into August. But in fact, a lot of the planets are going to be visible.
Like we’ve been watching all of the planets in the fall. Like I was out watching them, Saturn, Mars, Jupiter, Venus, uh, all in the evening sky throughout the fall. And so in the spring and now things are shifting over again.
And so you will start to see all of them sort of pop out into the morning sky, which, you know, is less interesting for a lot of people who wakes up at four in the morning or three in the morning to go watch planets. But, but, you know, if you’re, if you’re that kind of a morning person, this is your, this is your chance in August. Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So in August with all those planets in the morning sky, and we’re also going to have Mercury heading towards its greatest Western elongation, because that sucker moves quickly. We have the Perseid meteor shower on August 12th, 13th, and it’s better in the morning. So go out, get yourself a hammock with a hammock stand.
So you’re not under any trees nap until it looks like it’s a good hour. Um, and one of the cool things nowadays is you watch the Perseids, watch the Perseids, and then you can see when a sunset starts at low earth orbit, because suddenly you’re seeing satellites all of the time. And, uh, then you get to at least if you live somewhere like I do with fireflies, it’s a game of, is that going to be a satellite, a firefly or a meteorite?
Fraser Cain: Right. And you know, my question every year about the Perseids is what is happening with the moon?
Dr. Pamela Gay: It’s a waning gibbous. It’s pretty awful.
Fraser Cain: It’s how it’s not going to be that, especially if you’re like, if you don’t stay up too late. So it will have been a full moon on August 9th, which is, and then, and then with the actual Perseids on the night of the 12th, 13th. So now you’re three nights after.
And so if normally say the full moon rises just as this, you know, as it’s getting dark sunsets, yeah, it’s getting dark. And then the full moon comes up a couple of hours later. Then in this case, now you’re waiting a few hours before the sun comes up.
So you’ll have like a moment where, uh, it’s dark and you’ll be able to enjoy the Perseids. And so if you are planning any Perseid related activity, aim for the early evening because, because then, and that’s good for like the kids and stuff. Like you go out, it’s just starting to get dark.
I don’t know what, you know, what time it gets dark for you around there. Probably, you know, mid-August is probably starting to get dark around eight, 39 o’clock for you there. Go out then and then watch as many Perseids as you can.
And probably by around 11 o’clock midnight, the moon is going to rise. It’s going to put a lot of glare into the sky and make it a less enjoyable experience, but it won’t matter because you will have all fallen asleep in your cots with your, you know, eyes to the sky. Uh, so that’s, that’s okay.
Um, and then the other one that you want to keep an eye out, and this is like not as great. And these are the Delta Aquariids and they’re on the 29th and the 30th. And they are like, the Perseids, you can get upwards of a hundred an hour and they’re like, the weather is warm.
And the Perseids are always the, the, the crowd pleaser while the Delta Aquariids, they only give you like 20 per hour. So, uh, you know, but you will see something like if you go out and you, you lie out on the night of the 29th, eyes to the sky, you should see a meteor go by every four or five minutes, which is, you know, it’s better than no meters.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And, and the thing to remember is if you have a camping trip planned this summer, not during one of these events, try and schedule it around new moon if you can. And there’s always going to be meteorites. There’s always going to be rocket debris falling out of orbit.
And all of these things create nice, pretty streaks and, um, just go out and enjoy the sky no matter what. It’s, it’s not a summer with any great events. We’re not looking at any big eclipses.
We’re not looking at any super important planets right next to each other. It’s just a summer to survive and look up. And sometimes that’s enough.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. I like, I can’t, I did some research beforehand. I couldn’t even find some interesting comments that you could see in a small pair of binoculars or a small telescope.
There’s like not a lot. There’s like, there’s like one that might brighten, brighten up to the point that it’s magnitude like 15 or 12 in the summer. Like, yeah, if you’ve got a good setup, then maybe you can go find that.
But, but no, it’s not there. There are no comments that could potentially be exciting. All right.
We’re going to move on to media in a second, but it is time for another break. And we’re back. All right.
So what are you going to be trying to watch this summer?
Dr. Pamela Gay: So I have to admit, I am stupidly looking forward to Superman. I know it’s cheesy. I’m also looking forward to the Jurassic Park movie.
Cause dinosaurs, even if they’re terrible dinosaurs and none of them have feathers. So I’m apparently going to be going and watching big blockbuster movies. Cause that’s what I do.
What about you?
Fraser Cain: So there’s three TV shows that I’ve got my eye on. The first one is Star Trek, strange new worlds season three. And that’s just, it’s so great.
Like it really feels like somebody continued the old show of Star Trek. And if you’d like that kind of feeling. Yeah.
Yeah. And it’s like, they got the same outfits sort of, um, the, the actors are great. The sets are great.
And the, the sort of the themes of the show and the plots are very much kind of in the, in the vein as the original Star Trek shows, but they’ve, you know, sort of re-imagined the Gorn and other stuff. So that starts on July 17th on, you have to watch that on Paramount plus, but you know, what we always do is, is sort of turn on Paramount plus for a month with our existing like prime, watch it and then turn it back off again. So, um, and then the other show, and this is on Apple TV and like we got Apple TV and we could, we’re like, we’re just going to watch, then we’re going to cancel our Apple TV, but they keep releasing stuff that we keep wanting to watch.
And so we’re like, they’re clearly stringing us along. So right now we’re watching Murderbot, which is terrific. Um, but then on, uh, July 11th, you get the season three of Foundation, which is, is pretty good.
Like it’s very different from the books. And so if you’re waiting for someone to properly adapt the books, don’t, don’t, you know, don’t hold your breath. But if you want something that has sort of is, I don’t know, is singing from the same song sheet as the books, like it’s just, it’s similar-ish.
Um, and there’s a lot of really cool ideas that they’ve implemented and I’ve been really enjoying that. And then the one that’s kind of a sort of a mystery is that there’s going to be a TV show called Alien Earth, and this is going to be on, uh, FX. And this is sort of like kind of interesting to me.
So it’s made by the same people that did Fargo, the same director and Legion. And I don’t know if you remember Legion, Legion was this- Yeah, I loved it. Yeah.
Legion was this show sort of set in the X-Men universe about this, uh, you know, this very powerful mutant and it was very weird, like super weird. But, you know, when TV shows are weird, they can be on, like, they can be too weird or they can be just weird enough to be entertaining. This one was just weird enough.
Yeah. So this one walked the line nicely on the side of, of comprehensible and enjoyable weirdness, as opposed to incomprehensible navel gazing weirdness. And so this show covers the Alien franchise and it’s set just two years before the original Alien movie.
And so my expectation is that this is how they found out about the planet where the alien was, uh, that, you know, maybe there’s like more of a conspiracy going on why the crew of the Nostromo were sent to there. Uh, so we’ll see if it can sort of give some interesting background, but done by a creator who is, who’s a pretty sort of interesting person. And I also, well, I’m not going to watch Superman in the theater, but I’ll, I’ll wait for it to show up.
Dr. Pamela Gay: I have a season pass to our theater. So we just go see a bunch of stuff. Like I recently got to see Alien in the theater on the big screen and Blade Runner on the big screen.
Fraser Cain: That sounds great.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. It’s cool to get to see that stuff. Now I do have a question for you about strange new worlds.
One of the things I personally love about strange new worlds is just like Buffy, the vampire Slayer used to do. They’re able to get in these super weird, nonstandard episodes that they make work somehow. So they had one that was like they were in a storybook.
They had one that was musical theater. Um, what are your thoughts on these completely ridiculous episodes?
Fraser Cain: I couldn’t, I couldn’t tolerate the musical. I just couldn’t take it. Not everyone can sing well.
No, I just like, I’m not into it. Um, so, but I, you know, like whatever, like I, like I’m always such a huge fan of people experimenting. And so like, I think a lot of people, when they watch someone, some creators experiment like that, they, they gripe about it and will complain loudly on the internet.
And I’m just like, it’s not for me. It wasn’t for me. Like good on you for trying something experimental.
Uh, yeah. It wasn’t my bag, man. So yeah.
Um, yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Don’t yuck anyone else’s yum.
Fraser Cain: Yeah, exactly. So we’re going to chat about what we’re going to be up to this summer next, but it’s time for another break and we’re back. All right.
So this is weird, right? Because we’re going to talk about what we’re going to be doing this summer. And at the same time, we’re going to still be here with you guys for another couple of weeks.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Yeah. So what, what projects are you hoping to get done over the summer?
Dr. Pamela Gay: So I had my meeting with my NASA program officer last week. We look like we’re going to be launching new citizen science projects over on a psi.edu domain. Uh, the first week of July, I am aiming for July one.
Uh, but we have a couple of terabytes of imagery to process. And I had a moment of like looking at the math of that. So we’re aiming to launch either July 1st or right after 4th of July.
I’m not going to wreck anyone’s 4th of July. Go look at mercury and enjoy the fireworks, everyone. And we’re going to be, uh, testing out a new mosaicing algorithm for building a full globe mosaics of Mars that will allow us to see much better how the entire planet changes from season to season.
Uh, and then we’re mapping out little, little crater on the moon, trying to understand, this is one that when an asteroid impacted the moon, it melted the surface and we can see how the melt slushed and flowed. And we’re going to be mapping all of those features out. Um, and then, uh, hopefully by the end of the summer, entirely privately funded Cosmoquest is now entirely privately funded.
So we can keep all of our diversity, equity, and inclusion content. We can keep our queer content. Um, so Cosmoquest is completely privately funded thanks to our Patreon and one-time donations.
And I’m hoping to relaunch, uh, our old projects over there that still needed processing done. So like mercury mappers and, uh, yeah, I’m going to be writing software all summer is what I’m going to be doing.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Awesome. Um, I’m going to be doing something very similar, actually, which is that I, you know, I bought the sea star S 50 and w I want to turn that into the star parties.
So the plan is, um, I’m working with star front, which is the group that has the, you know, the Colo, the server co-location in Texas.
Dr. Pamela Gay: They’re excellent.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. The telescope co-location. It’s an, it’s an incredible service where you just go take your telescope, drop it off with them.
They set it up and then you connect to it remotely. And then you’re controlling your telescope and Bortle one skies with 300 nights of clear skies every year. It’s incredible.
And so, um, my, I’ve been hacking so far, but I’ve been able to get, I’ve been able to control the sea star, my, my telescope, the telescope, not using the app, I’m able to actually use a completely separate, uh, sort of piece of software running on my computer. So I’m controlling the telescope remotely and you can’t do this right now. You can’t actually control these sea stars when you’re outside of your network.
And so my plan, my medium term plan is to, is to make, have this interface that we can then control a bunch of sea stars all at the same time and then let a bunch of our friends control these things and, and put on the star parties, but make it really kind of fun and very simple where a person doesn’t have to know very much. They can just start putting in objects they want, watching as the live view updates, call it when they’re, when they’ve had enough, and then we’ll share the images and sort keep it pretty light. But I’m sort of building the interface and, and application layer that will connect to these sea stars.
So that’s sort of a big project that’s going to keep me pretty busy for the, probably the next month or so to make this work. But hopefully this will solve a lot of the problems that I’ve been having. Cause we, you know, we’ve done a couple of the star parties and the, the technology is just, it’s just not there yet.
It’s just not there. Like the interfaces, these telescopes are just not usable to go fast, to do the kind of broadcast that I need to do solo. And so I need to build the right machine to then allow this to make this work a lot better.
So that’s, that’s a big project. And then, um, you know, we’ve been doing a lot of interviews, so we’ve got a lot of interviews that are going to be planned over the summer. Uh, we’re going to be switching into our overtime broadcasts for all of the Q and A’s.
Uh, so we’ve got a ton of content. We’re still doing space bites all summer long. So we’ve got a lot of content and a lot of time, but really for me, the hiatus is there are these big projects that have, that require focus and concentration, a lot of moving parts.
And I just need hours per day to stare at them and not get distracted every few minutes. And so that’s why hiatus is just so important. And then I’ve got to get out into the forest and keep cutting down trees and, and you know, the diversity is growing.
It’s really great to see all of the life that we’re, we’ve got here. We’ve got our little, uh, they’re called Douglas squirrels and they come running into the house and looking for peanuts and zipping back outside again and birds everywhere. It’s great having a really good time.
I always forget how much, how wonderful summer is.
Dr. Pamela Gay: That, that is amazing. I, I do admit that with fear and trepidation, I’m going to have to take on my front flower bed that has weeds that are now so tall. I can’t reach the top of them.
Yeah. And, and I’m afraid of my front flower bed and the front flower bed is like, what is in front of our patio where I have looked out while recording and seen skunks. And it’s just like, am I going to get in there and find a family of skunks living in the weeds that are taller than I am?
Um, so this, yes, yes.
Fraser Cain: Almost certainly.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah.
Fraser Cain: Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: I’m, I’m afraid of my front flower bed.
Fraser Cain: Awesome. Well, that sounds great. All right.
Well, so normally we would say goodbye to everybody for the summer, but we’re not because we’re going to be back here next week. So, uh, we’ll see you next week and then eventually we’ll say goodbye. But, uh, until then, we’ll see you next week.
Thanks, Pamela.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Thank you, Fraser. And thank you so much to all of our Patreon patrons that allow us to keep doing what we do this week. I want to thank in particular Abraham Cottrell, Alex Rain, Andrew Stevenson, Arnaud DeGroot, Benjamin Davies, Bill Smythe or Smith, sorry, uh, Boogie Net, Brian Cook, Buzz Parsec, Cody Rose, Daniel Loosley, David Gates, Dianne Philippon, Dr. Jeff Collins, Eran Segrev, Felix Gut, Frodo, I’m so sorry. I never say it right. Um, uh, Gertrude Schweitzer, Gordon Dewis, Helen McKinney, James Siknorowicz, Jean-Baptiste Lamartine, Jeremy Kerwin, Jim of Everett, John Drake, Jonathan Poe, Justin Proctor, Keith Murray, Christian Golding, Laura Kettleson, uh, Lana Spencer, Mark Steven, Raznak, Mathias Hayden. Oh, it just jumped.
Okay. Mathias Hayden, uh, Michael Prashada, uh, Michelle Cullen, Nate Detweiler, Papa Hotdog, Paul L. Hayden, Philip Walker, Red Bar is watching, Robert Hodel, Ryan Amari, Sharesam, Sean Matt, Simon Parter, uh, Stephen Coffey, The Air Major, The Mysterious Mark, Time Lord Iroh, Van Ruckman, and William Andrews.
Thank you all so very much.
Fraser Cain: Thanks everyone. And we’ll see you next week.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Bye-bye. AstronomyCast is a joint product of Universe Today and the Planetary Science Institute. AstronomyCast is released under a Creative Commons attribution license.
So love it, share it, and remix it, but please credit it to our hosts, Fraser Cain and Dr. Pamela Gay. You can get more information on today’s show topic on our website, astronomycast.com. This episode was brought to you thanks to our generous patrons on Patreon.
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Anyways, keep looking up. This has been AstronomyCast.
Live Showhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hG8Q3ZSX50
Humanity has turned its focus back to the Moon, sending a fleet of spacecraft to the lunar surface. Some are run by the government, but there’s a whole new group of commercial landers bearing instruments to the lunar surface. Is this the future of lunar exploration? Space used to be a place occupied by government-funded and military missions, but today, we’re seeing the rise… and fall (somersault, crash, and explosion) of missions with commercial design and funding. Let’s talk about how this is good, bad, and maybe just too soon.
Show Notes* Commercial Lunar Exploration + Rise of Private Missions + NASA’s Role + XPRIZE Legacy * Lunar Mission Highlights + Astrobotic’s Peregrine + Intuitive Machines (Odysseus) + iSpace & Firefly + Other Efforts * Science Goals & Outcomes + Survivability + Scientific Payload * Technical & Financial Challenges + Landing is Hard + Costs Vary Widely + Navigation Systems * NASA & Future Outlook + Shift in Contracts + Private Innovation
TranscriptFraser Cain: Astronomy Episode 759 Commercial Lunar Landers. Welcome to AstronomyCast, our weekly facts-based journey through the cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I’m Fraser Cain.
I’m the publisher of Universe Today. With me, as always, is Dr. Pamela Gay, a senior scientist for the Planetary Science Institute and the director of CosmoQuest. Hey, Pamela, how are you doing?
Dr. Pamela Gay: I’m doing well. My audio is… Yeah, we should explain.
Fraser Cain: You should do the explain of shame for why your audio sounds a little teeny this week.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So I’m normally using a little tiny lapel mic, except I wandered off with it. And I knew where it was this morning. And between my office upstairs and the studio downstairs, I stopped to make coffee and then got distracted by the dogs on the outside and somewhere in my kitchen, I sat down the little tiny black box of audio goodness.
And my kitchen is chaos incarnate of bikes and gardening stuff and cooking stuff and the stuff that gets dumped when you come in from the driveway. And so apparently, I will clean my kitchen just so I can find my microphone.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. So everybody who’s listening, start your engines. This is the first week of Pamela Can’t Find Her Microphone.
We’ll see what happens next week. So if you hear this and we continue the joke, then things have gotten very serious. But I wouldn’t be surprised if she starts getting creative and sort of repurposing other old gear to end what is now going to become a running joke week after week after week.
Dr. Pamela Gay: I may have to steal a preamp from my husband and pull out one of the good condenser mics that requires a preamp because that may be easier.
Fraser Cain: Let me know if you need some gear recommendations. I’m using the Focusrite and I really like it.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So we have a I think it’s M-Audio Red.
Fraser Cain: It’s that’s older.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah, it’s older, but solid.
Fraser Cain: Yeah, I don’t think they’re even. Yeah, it’s solid. I don’t know if they’re even supporting it anymore.
So anyway, that’s that’s that’s something that the podcast listeners don’t need to hear. Let’s let’s move on. Humanity has turned its focus back to the moon, sending a fleet of spacecraft to the lunar surface.
Some are run by the government, but there’s a whole new group of commercial landers fearing instruments to the lunar surface. Is this the future of lunar exploration? We will talk about it a second, but it’s time for a break and we’re back.
All right. Let’s talk about commercial lunar landers, exploration, because there’s been a lot of activity already and and we’re going to get to that. But I’d like to just focus on on the history.
And I think we should put this in context of what happened with the with the commercial crew program that NASA has already done. Like NASA has has kind of really developed an an interesting way, an interesting partnership and working with commercial providers to supply the International Space Station. So let’s extend that to the moon.
Dr. Pamela Gay: I was actually going to go back earlier than that.
Fraser Cain: Oh, sure.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. You remember the days of Google and our XPRIZE?
Fraser Cain: Yep. Yep.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So so back in the early 2000s, we had the Ansari XPRIZE that is what got a scaled composite, lost it, launching their little badminton birdie of a spacecraft into space, flittering back down, taking off a few days later. They won the prize. Virgin Galactic bought themselves a space plane.
And now we have one of the commercial options for space tourism. Well, after the Ansari XPRIZE was won, we had the Google Lunar XPRIZE, which had the goal of having a team launch something to the moon entirely funded commercially, academically, donations, anything but government funding was illegitimate. It then had to travel across the surface of the moon.
It could rove, it could flit, it could hop, it could dance, it could burrow. No one tried to dance or burrow. But they had to move a distance across the surface of the moon and then send back video.
Now, unfortunately, by 2015, it was realized, one, we didn’t really have anything we could launch with that that was up to the task at that point in time. And none of the teams were quite ready to go. So Google was like, we’re calling it guys.
But a bunch of those teams kept going. And this was the origins of Bear Sheep from SpaceIL, of iSpace. And I can’t pronounce it correctly with the cute little bunny ears.
Hakato from Japan? Hakuto, I think. Astrobotic, a bunch of these teams that we have since seen become companies, got their origins with the Google Lunar XPRIZE.
Fraser Cain: Google Gurner?
Dr. Pamela Gay: Exactly. Exactly. And so these are teams that have been around for 20-ish years.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. And I think that lead then into what I was talking, sort of starting to prepare, which was that all of these companies had invested all this money and the XPRIZE had been canceled. And yet they had made all these investments and had working hardware and they’re ready to start trying for the moon, probably within months of when they canceled the prize.
And someone said, hey, let’s see if we can continue that process and turn these into, let’s give them jobs, right? And it worked out. I mean, theoretically has worked out very well.
Practically, we’re having some issues, but we’ll get to that.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So we saw various seed funds coming from governments. Israel was the first one to step up with Beresheet. We had the CLIPS program here in the United States, the Commercial Lunar CLIPS.
I forgot the letters.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Something service.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Launch service. Thank you. Commercial.
I can’t.
Fraser Cain: Commercial Partner Launch Service, I think. Anyway, CLIPS.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yes. We had the CLIPS program come out and it was the United States saying, all right, we want to go back to the moon and we want to change how we fund it. And the idea was.
Fraser Cain: Commercial Lunar Payload Service.
Dr. Pamela Gay: I knew there was a lunar in there.
Fraser Cain: Okay.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So the Commercial Lunar Payload Services was NASA saying, we want delivery of stuff to the moon to be as regular as sending something via FedEx. And we were starting to get there with low Earth orbit with the Falcon 9 launches where it was just sort of like, okay, we’re going to book a berth on a shared launch. Let’s go.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Yeah. And like, I think it’s important.
I mean, I had mentioned that you had the commercial, like the deliveries of supplies to the International Space Station, the commercial cargo, you had several companies, not just SpaceX, others were also delivering stuff. You had the Cygnus, you had the Dream Chaser. You’ve got all these spacecraft that are delivering to the station.
And then as you said, you do a ride share. And so you’d have like maybe 40 CubeSats or three big satellites on a launch. And NASA would just be one of those satellites on that launch and then pair it up with a commercial company or whatever.
So you’re kind of moving towards this place where NASA no longer has to spend a lot of time thinking about how they’re going to deploy their experiments to the places that they want them to go.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And the argument was that just like with FedEx, when you pay to ship something, FedEx knows how much it should cost on average. And some packages are actually going to cost a whole lot more to ship because hardware failures, weather, and all these other things, changing gas prices in one location and not another.
Fraser Cain: The recipient lives in the middle of a forest far away from a main road.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Exactly, exactly.
Fraser Cain: I know I’m being subsidized by FedEx.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So all these different factors are just things that FedEx knows how to take care of and factor into the cost. The problem with trying to do this to go to the moon instead of to low Earth orbit is no one knows how much it actually costs on average to go to the moon. Because like this isn’t something that just gets done every day.
They don’t have the actuarial tables of 30 launches to look at and figure out, oh yeah, these parts go wrong this often. They don’t even have one launch.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. You have the Chinese. You have the Soviets back in the 70s and 80s.
You have early NASA and then estimates by the folks doing the commercial Lunar X-Prize or the Lunar X-Prize. So yeah, nobody knows what this costs. I’ve heard it said delivering, it’s $100 million per kilogram to deliver to the surface of the moon, right?
$10 million per kilogram. It’s expensive.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And so NASA is trying to move away from doing full cost plus fee to instead doing fixed cost to pay for contracts. And this means that we have all of these little commercial companies, and these are new guys. They are literally small companies with only like 500 employees in some cases.
And they’re trying to go to the moon, not getting paid enough to deliver the individual cargo missions. And they’re having to use venture capital. They’re having to use seed funds to hope that someday, present day investments will allow them to have future income.
It’s the standard model that we see with every venture tech company. It just may take them a bit longer and they may not all survive.
Fraser Cain: All right. So we’re going to talk about, I guess, how these contracts work and what the expectations are in a second, but it’s time for a break and we’re back. All right.
So this is the need that NASA addressed that they came up with a solution. Let’s come up with all these partners. They have signed all of these contracts to various providers.
And so how is this sort of structured?
Dr. Pamela Gay: It is literally them saying, we have this instrument, we have this rover, we have this thing. We don’t care about anything else other than our thing. Fly our thing.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. On the moon.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah.
Fraser Cain: Put this thing on the moon.
Dr. Pamela Gay: That’s it. That’s, that’s it.
Fraser Cain: And we will pay you. Here’s some money. Take this rover, get it on the moon.
Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. Simple until they actually try and do it.
Fraser Cain: Yes. All right. All right.
Okay. We will, I guess we’ve got to go into how’s it going? How’s it going so far?
Dr. Pamela Gay: Well, Firefly Aerospace landed Blue Ghost and everyone else has either not fired their engine soon enough, fired their engines too late, fallen over or fallen over while still firing their engines.
Fraser Cain: Okay. So let’s, let’s, let’s do a quick rundown of all of the, the CLPS programs so far. So who was, who was first out of the gate?
Dr. Pamela Gay: So the first one out of the gate for the CLPS program was Astrobotic with their Peregrine Lander. And, and NASA had really big hopes for this company. Again, this was one of the Google Lunar XPRIZE companies.
They were contracted that on their second landing, they were going to potentially take the Viper rover, which is a half billion dollar rover. And, and Peregrine failed due to reaction thruster leak that made the spacecraft uncontrollable. So it just fell apart in the Earth’s atmosphere 10 days after launch.
Fraser Cain: Right. They didn’t, it didn’t even get out of Earth orbit.
Dr. Pamela Gay: No, no. So needles to say NASA decided they are not launching Viper on Astrobotic’s second mission.
Fraser Cain: But they’re also not launching Viper at all.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Right, right. So this actually probably murdered the Viper rover, which is fully tested, fully functional, ready to go, has an entire science team. Yeah.
Fraser Cain: Okay. All right. So that was Peregrine mission one from Astrobotic.
What came after that?
Dr. Pamela Gay: Intuitive Machines, just like six weeks later, this was NovaSea and Odysseus. This one fell over.
Fraser Cain: Right. And I like, it sounds like it, you know, everything was going well. They were live streaming the descent.
We’re all watching with beta breath. This is it. This was the chance to prove it.
There’s a lot of really interesting science experiments on Intuitive Machines one. And it seemed to like it landed and they lost contact, but then they were able to make this sort of feeble contact with it.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah.
Fraser Cain: And, and what had, and I think what had happened, it broke its leg.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. So, so it’s unclear exactly how it broke its leg. It fell over, it ended up at an 18 degree angle.
There were other issues with this one. It turns out lunar laser ranging is hard, especially when you forget to turn your instrument on. They had put a software hard stop in their laser ranger telling it do not fire so that it wouldn’t go off and damage one of the human beings working on mission development.
They needed to recompile, or I don’t know if they were doing compiled code. They needed to redo their code before they launched. They did not.
[Speaker 5]Yes.
Dr. Pamela Gay: There was another laser ranger on board that was on the NASA instrument. They tried to use that.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. I remember that. Yeah.
That was really interesting. They tried to patch over to this other system.
Dr. Pamela Gay: It didn’t quite get them there. Um, so it went down, it broke its leg. Um, it fell over, it didn’t get enough sunlight.
It also didn’t drop its camera, the Eagle camera that it was supposed to before it landed. So we didn’t actually get to see what happened for a hot minute. Um, there were a whole lot of things that went wrong with that one, except everything on board survived.
Fraser Cain: Right.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So we were getting back information saying I’m alive. Deploy me. I’m alive.
Deploy me. And nothing could be deployed because it was sideways.
Fraser Cain: So not nothing, not nothing. So it had a, um, uh, a radio antenna that was going to perform some experiments about whether it could detect the, the presence of, of life on earth, the, um, the, the antenna radio signals. And so it was able to deploy this antenna and it was able to detect the presence of, you know, radio communications coming from earth.
And it was also able to detect radio emissions coming from the Milky way. And, and so this was like a pathfinder for a future, something that would try and search for the 21 centimeter line for a future mission. So it was able to sort of like just barely pull that off.
And I think we got like one picture home before it succumbed to the lunar, to the lunar night, which is a theme. All right. We’re going to talk about the next one, which was a success, but it’s time for another break.
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Now back to your regularly scheduled listening.
Fraser Cain: And we’re back. All right. Let’s get, let’s have some good news.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So, so this one brought me so much joy because first of all, I got to go see it launch in person back in January. And, and so it, it launched on Falcon 9, iSpace and Firefly Aerospace did a ride share to the moon. Firefly took completely different orbital path.
So it went pretty much straight there. It did really good computer vision work as it was landing to figure out where it was, where it was going, how to keep its orientation upright. It was nice and squat with widely placed legs.
It had great cameras so that you could see what was happening during landing and it landed successfully and deployed the things and stuff. And it even observed an eclipse from the moon, which is just amazing.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. It was incredible. It did a little drilling.
It tried some, it tested out an electrostatic coating that would try to remove regolith from its surfaces and that worked well. So there was like a bunch of little experiments, as you said, and then it too succumbed to the lunar night.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And that’s fair. It was designed to do that.
Fraser Cain: Right. It’s, you know, we’re not building things with chunks of decaying plutonium in them anymore. This is fine.
Okay.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So I have one more point. I have one more bit of trivia I need to share. Okay.
So the blue ghost is a kind of firefly. So Firefly Aerospace launched the blue ghost, which is a kind of firefly.
Fraser Cain: Right.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And I just find that adorable and everyone needs to know that.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. All right. Now, now bring me back down.
Give me some bad news.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So, so I, I have to admit, I went into last week’s landing of ice space with this, if it works, I’m going to argue that I have to see every launch of these landers. Cause they only work if I see them. So, so I’m like, especially sad about ice space because it was a Google lunar XPRIZE team.
I’ve been cheering for them since the early two thousands. And I was there when they launched and I wanted to have two.
Fraser Cain: The first one or the second one?
Dr. Pamela Gay: The, the most recent, well, I, I have been cheering them on since the beginning, but the, the first one also failed.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. The first one failed. Yeah.
Who could it are that mission one, it failed about a year ago. And so they recently launched, you watched it launch. We, we were all ready and excited to watch that land, but actually there was the, the intuitive machines before we talk about what happened with ice space, we should talk about what happened with intuitive machines to the Athena.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah.
Fraser Cain: That’s the bad news that I was hoping to hear about.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Oh man. So, so what didn’t go wrong with that mission?
Fraser Cain: Well, I mean it, so from what I recall, it landed and it had a problem with this range finder as well. And it ended up landing really unluckily into a little crater and then it tipped over.
Dr. Pamela Gay: It’s actually unclear what order that happened in there. There was, if you watch during the landing, it was wild because they were getting back data that their engines were still firing and their orientation. If you watch the guys who were holding the model, I’m going to use this as my model.
So this is an upright lander and they walked over to the screen with their model of the lander and they’re trying to figure out what’s going on and you see them do this.
Fraser Cain: Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And then just walk away.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. And so, and so you’re thinking like people think that it might have been firing while it was on the ground.
Dr. Pamela Gay: It had already fallen over and it was still firing its engines.
Fraser Cain: Wow. Okay.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And, and so it, it ended up sideways in the dark.
Fraser Cain: Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: It didn’t last very long yet. Again, everything on board said, hi, we’re happy.
Fraser Cain: Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Including a little Rover.
Fraser Cain: We got one picture.
Dr. Pamela Gay: We got one picture that annoys me because you’re looking up at the earth between the Rover’s legs. Yeah. And it’s just like, that’s not what you should be seeing.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Yeah. But that’s what we see because that’s reality.
All right.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And, and everything that flew with it to the moon also failed. The entire launch of things toward the moon failed. And there was also Astroforge.
Astroforge also failed. Sorry.
Fraser Cain: Astroforge failed. Yeah. So, so like, so what are we at now?
We are, we are, so Bear Sheep failed. Um, Hakuto-R mission one failed.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Selene fell over, kind of worked.
Fraser Cain: Odysseus failed. Athena failed. Peregrine failed.
Uh, I’m running out of fingers.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Nova-C failed.
Fraser Cain: Which?
Dr. Pamela Gay: Nova-C, that was the intuitive machine.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Yeah. That’s intuitive machines.
That’s her, Athena. And so, um, we’ve got a success from Blue Ghost. And then the, the most recent, the one that happened last week from when we’re recording this was iSpace’s Hakuto-R mission two.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah.
Fraser Cain: How’d that go?
Dr. Pamela Gay: It turns out lunar laser ranging is harder than people give it credit for.
Fraser Cain: Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Um, we still haven’t got the full reports. People who were looking at the telemetry during landing, uh, noted that they were going really fast when their altimeter said they were really close to the surface. And they were about a minute closer to the surface than they thought they were.
Yeah. So Scott Manley did a lot of work on this. Uh, just like figuring out what happened from publicly available data.
And it looks like, uh, they didn’t slow down early enough. Um, they got close to the surface ahead of when they were planning and they just landed hard.
Fraser Cain: Yep.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Um, nothing survived.
Fraser Cain: I haven’t seen, like, we always get pictures from Lunar Surveyor after the attempts and I haven’t seen…
Dr. Pamela Gay: Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Yeah. Sorry.
Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter. And I haven’t seen any pictures from this yet, but I’m sure there’ll be out soon.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. And it, it’s one of these things where the question I keep getting asked is why did they have so much less trouble? It seemed like 70 some odd years ago.
And, and one of the things that is really being brought home by all of this is these teams are by and large trying to have smart spacecraft. Decades ago, before we were born, they were relying on kinematic equations and dead reckoning and thinking they knew where the surface was and doing the, okay, we fire for this long at this time. We then fire for this long at this time.
And it was like freshman physics level equations with graduate school level orbital mechanics. It was just time position engine. And what they’re doing now is they’re trying to say, okay, so we can see that we’re in this place.
We are now going to react to being in this place. And that means you’re subject to any of your environmental detection stuff gets out of sync either with time or fails, and you no longer know where you’re located. You’re not dead reckoning.
And it’s a lot harder to do something based on knowing where you are versus calculating where you are. This is why autonomous cars struggle so much.
Fraser Cain: Yep.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So we’re, we’re, we need to solve autonomous cars before we solve autonomous landings.
Fraser Cain: And I mean, we’re only covering the commercial lunar landers. So we talked about, we talked about bear sheet, which fail, we talked about the, the ice base ones that failed. We talked about intuitive machines and pair and osteobotic and, um, Astro forge.
Um, so we haven’t talked about the, the government ones. They’re working there. Well, are they most?
Dr. Pamela Gay: Okay. Chandrian has become rock solid. Sean has become rock solid, right?
Fraser Cain: So this was the first Chandra and failed the second shot. Yeah. The first hundred and failed the second Chandra and succeeded.
Um, the Chinese had been successful so far. Um, the, the Russian return didn’t work so well. There was a Japanese failure.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. That was Celine. It, it lasted a little while.
It was like, it, it got data. It also fell over.
Fraser Cain: Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Falling over is really easy to do. It turns out.
Fraser Cain: Okay. Yeah. So, uh, but you know, I mean, this is, this is how this works.
And I think the plan is very compelling that you will, you will have a future of, of lunar exploration where again, you just say, I need this and I need it on the moon and, and, and some provider will go, no problem. Uh, we’ll see you on the moon. And that like, that sounds great.
That, that sounds like what it should be. But, and, and I think what’s really important is to get across these things are cheap, that we are looking at tens of millions of dollars to deploy in, you know, a lot of these are, are much less than, than a hundred million dollars. This is a fraction of the price that other government run programs have done in the past.
Dr. Pamela Gay: The entire mission will cost that much. The amount of money NASA is spending is tiny bucks.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Even less. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you think about how much NASA is spending now to get something deployed to the moon.
It’s a, it’s, they’re only paying a part of that price. So, so this is really worth, like, I know it sounds like this is all not working, but blue ghost showed us that it’s not impossible. And so hopefully we will see more.
And so there’s like a bunch more coming and we will sort of stay tuned and maybe we’ll do, you know, two or three years from now, we’ll come back around and do another video and we’ll go like, yeah, everything’s working great. Or the galactic ghoul eats lunar spacecraft for breakfast.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And, and the big thing that I know I, for one, I’m really looking forward to is blue origin is on their next launch. Their very first launch of their big old rocket was able to send a spacecraft healthy around the moon for their second launch, their very first launch of their big old rocket was able to send a spacecraft healthy around the moon for their second launch. They’re looking to launch their Mark 1 robotic lander and this is NASA’s other contracted company for getting humans on the moon.
Mark 1 is not going to be human certified, it’s a cargo vessel. But if they can get New Glenn working consistently, and they’re one for one so far, and they can get their Mark 1 lander working, suddenly we have another path to getting humans on the moon that isn’t beholden to whether or starship is ever made to function and stop polluting beaches.
Fraser Cain: Yep. Yeah. Yeah.
So you’ve got what’s going to happen. I mean, potentially it’s going to be the exact same thing. I want this astronaut and I want him on the moon.
And, and, you know, some provider will go, no problem. You know, we gotcha. Here’s what it’s going to cost, but we’re not there yet.
But I, but I, I’m a big fan of this method just because it, it’s in the exact same way that NASA might say, I want this scientist and I want them in France. Right. And they go like, okay, they buy a plane ticket, they get on an airplane and they go to France.
They don’t, you know, NASA doesn’t build a new aircraft to, to solve the problem. You know, I really want NASA taking on risk. I want NASA to do stuff that everybody’s just too cowardly and afraid to try to do.
That’s, that’s my, that’s my favorite version of NASA, the thrilling space agency that is out there, uh, trying crazy ideas and proving, de-risking them so that, that either other space agencies or they, or commercial providers or whatever can actually, you know, bring us that science fiction future that we have been promised.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So I, I like the way you dream. This is not a topic for this week. We’re in fact going to take it on in a few weeks.
We’re waiting to see if the U S is capable of passing budgets. Um, like currently we’re looking at like essentially nothing, nothing. I’m just going to go with nothing.
Um, so, so the fact that commercial companies like blue are blue origin are out there saying we see a commercial reason to develop this technology may be what keeps space going in the United States as we defund our country.
Fraser Cain: Right. Uh, well, we’ll keep you posted on, on what happens to NASA’s budget.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Hopefully we’ll know an answer before we go to summer hiatus.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Otherwise we’ll report on after.
Dr. Pamela Gay: We’re going to at least talk about it. Yeah.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Or we’ll come back after summer hiatus and give you an update on the budget. All right.
We will see all of you, uh, next week. Thanks, Pamela.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Thank you. And thank you to everyone out there who’s supporting us through Patreon. I, I have to say at my institution, my humans working on producing this show and everything we do over at Cosmo quest are the only ones that are mortified instead of terrified by the U S budget, because you are what pays a portion of their salary and your donations and sponsorships matter more than ever before.
Um, this week I would like to thank a pronounceable name. You’re welcome. Dr. Alex Cohen, Andrew Pleistra, Arctic Fox, Bore Andro Levsvold, Benjamin Carrier, Bob Crell, uh, Brian Kegel, Bury Gowan, Claudia Mastriani, Daniel Donaldson, David Bogaty, David Trobe, Don Mundus, Elliot Walker, Father Prax, Frank Stewart, Jeff McDonald, Gold, Gregory Singleton, James Roger, uh, Jason Kwong, Jeff Wilson, uh, Jimmy Drake, Joe Holstein, uh, Jonathan H Starver, just me and the cat, Katie and Ulyssa, uh, Kimberly Reich, uh, Larry Zott, uh, Lou Zealand, Mark Schneider, Matthew Horstman, Michael Hartman, Michael Regan, Nala, Olga, Paul Esposito, Philip Grant, Rondo, uh, Robert Cordova, Ruben McCarthy, Sam Brooks and his mom, Scott Briggs, Seggy Kembler, Steve Rutley, TC Starboy, The Lonely Sandperson, Tim Garish, Tashar Nakini, Will Hamilton. Thank you all so very much.
Fraser Cain: Thanks everyone. And we will see you next week.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Astronomy Cast is a joint product of Universe Today and the Planetary Science Institute. Astronomy Cast is released under a Creative Commons attribution license. So love it, share it and remix it, but please credit it to our hosts, Fraser Cain and Dr. Pamela Gay. You can get more information on today’s show topic on our website, astronomycast.com. This episode was brought to you thanks to our generous patrons on Patreon. If you want to help keep this show going, please consider joining our community at patreon.com slash astronomycast. Not only do you help us pay our producers a fair wage, you will also get special access to content right in your inbox and invites to online events. We are so grateful to all of you who have joined our Patreon community already. Anyways, keep looking up.
This has been Astronomy Cast.
Live Show
Computers are getting smaller, faster and more capable, which has enabled an entirely mew class of satellites: CubeSats. A mission small enough that you can hold it in your hands, and yet powerful enough to even travel to other planets and send messages home.
Every year, our electronics seem to get smaller and more powerful, with today’s smart watches being more fully featured than the computers Pamela and Fraser had as little kids. These tiny processors, sensors, and transmitters are allowing tiny satellites with powerful functionality, and today we take a look at how this is changing space exploration.
Show Notes* Updates & Announcements * Citizen Science Project Launch: * Current Rovers in Space * Challenges in Space Terrains. * Prototype Exploration Ideas * Aerial Exploration: Helicopters & Drones * Legged & Spider-like Robots * Winch and Tether Rovers * Titan & Venus Exploration Concepts * Under-Ice and Swimming Bots
TranscriptFraser Cain: AstronomyCast, Episode 758, Non-Roving Rovers. Welcome to AstronomyCast, our weekly facts-based journey through the cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I’m Fraser Cain, I’m the Publisher of Universe Today.
With me as always is Dr. Pamela Gay, a Senior Scientist for the Planetary Science Institute, and the Director of CosmoQuest.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Hey Pamela, how are you doing? I am doing well. I think tomorrow I get to actually preview our new Citizen Science project on Twitch.
Oh, that’s amazing.
Fraser Cain: Cool. So, if people want to watch this, they should go make sure they’re following CosmoQuest.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah, subscribe to our newsletter.
Fraser Cain: I guess when this comes out, it will have already happened, but I guess you can go to the CosmoQuest Twitch channel and see what happened and see all your other announcements and stuff all around.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah.
Fraser Cain: Can you even say what you guys are premiering, or is that even still a bit of a secret?
Dr. Pamela Gay: So there’s two projects. The one that I know is go for tomorrow is to map out Little Lowell Crater and look at all the melt features to try and understand how melted regolith sloshes around when an area of the moon gets melted during an impact. The other project is trying to understand if improved algorithms successfully mosaic pictures of Mars together.
It’s one of these, you look, you click, you look, you click. That one, I’m still working with the scientists to get approval on, so it may not be ready to be previewed tomorrow. The one weird, I’m having a branding nightmare.
So CosmoQuest has a bunch of DEI content on it. We have a very inclusive Discord, and I don’t want to have to delete any of that. So our new citizen science projects are going to be on a new URL that is part of the psi.edu domain. That’s our parent organization. So I don’t have to delete DEI content from CosmoQuest. Yeah.
Fraser Cain: Wonderful. Some of our favorite robots are rovers currently roving around the surface of the moon and Mars, but there are some pretty tricky terrain out there and engineers are scheming up clever ways to explore other worlds inspired by life that crawls, slithers, hops, and flies. And we will talk about it in a second, but it’s time for a break.
And we’re back. All right. So where are the rovers right now?
Dr. Pamela Gay: Okay, so the rovers today, there is several functional on Mars and many less than functional on Mars.
Fraser Cain: Right.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And there are many that died unfortunate deaths on the moon prior to getting to do their job. There are a bunch that got dropped on asteroids by Japanese missions, and that’s very pleasing. But so far, that’s it.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. And that’s just rovers. And there’s been a couple of alternative ideas that have been tried out.
Obviously, we’ve got the Ingenuity helicopter on Mars that went with Perseverance, the first rotor craft that has explored.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Minerva 2 on Hayabusa 2 is my favorite. What were they? So they were torque thrusters, for lack of a better way to explain it.
I mean, they weren’t actually thrusters. These were disks. They looked like really thick record players, essentially.
And they had inside of them a torque device that would basically move slowly, and they’d go ka-thunk. And the counter motion to the ka-thunk would fling the spacecraft. And the reason they had to do this was the gravity on the asteroids.
They were planning to do this on Itokawa initially, but Minerva 1 didn’t work so well. But when they got to Ryugu, Minerva 2 A and B, the gravity is so low they couldn’t rove without accidentally sending themselves into orbit or worse. So this torque mechanism allowed them to fly 50 feet or so, no big deal, on a ballistic trajectory after launching themselves with a solid ka-thunk.
Fraser Cain: Right. Right. So they just spun up for a second, gave themselves a kick in the opposite direction, in the low gravity, flung themselves wildly, randomly, and then landed somewhere else and took a look around and then did it again.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And because it was rotatable, they could kind of sort of pick what direction they flung themselves in.
Fraser Cain: Right. That’s awesome. I mean, it just shows you like in that low gravity, it’s surprisingly difficult to be able to explore around.
Okay. So, so then I guess that sort of leads into the weird terrain and the fascinating terrain that is out there across the solar system that we would want to explore that is beyond the reach of a six wheel rover.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. So we have basically three different issues to deal with. One is how do you maneuver when the gravity is so low that one wrong move and you’ve left the world?
Fraser Cain: Right.
Dr. Pamela Gay: The second is low gravity worlds can have much steeper faces, much more easily deep holes and taller mountains than we get with our gravity.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. We think about like the Rosetta mission on, on 67P where the Philae lander tried to land.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah.
Fraser Cain: And it is a nightmare of deep crevasses and jagged mountains. One of the most compelling pieces of space media that has ever been made, in my opinion, is this short animated sequence, like, like actual pictures taken where you’re seeing this steep cliff on the side of the comet 67P and it’s kind of almost like it’s snowing around there and it just looks so rugged, like the Himalayas almost. And this was images taken by the Rosetta mission as it was an orbit around it.
It just gives you a sense of just how nasty that terrain is. And so you get, as you say, those steep cliffs and when you match that with almost no gravity, it’s really hard to get purchase, to be able to move confidently in such low gravity across such steep terrain. Okay.
So there’s, there’s two horrible nightmares.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And then the last one is we have icy landscapes and we have those on earth too. And we know from earth just how easy it is to lose things into crevasses and other bad icy features. And so as we look to go to Titan, which is lower gravity, different thickness of atmosphere allows it to have methane, ethane acting like water does on earth.
We have to start worrying about completely different icy snowy surfaces. And then someday we’re hopefully going to be going to Europa with more than a flyby mission. Europa Clipper is basically a very fancy flyby mission that’s in orbit around Jupiter.
If we’re landing on that surface, we’re going to have to contend with all of the massive cracks on that world and a desire to not fall through the ice.
Fraser Cain: All right. So we’re going to talk about some of the interesting prototype ideas that have been tested out here on earth in a second, but it’s time for another break. And we’re back.
All right. So now that we know the horrible, horrible landscape that awaits us out there in the solar system, what are some really clever ideas that people are working on to be able to try and explore these regions?
Dr. Pamela Gay: The one that made me giggle the most is called the Lunar Pogo. Have you interviewed anyone about this one? Yes.
Fraser Cain: Well, not specifically the Lunar Pogo, maybe. But there was a NIAC grant for an Enceladus Pogo, and I’ve interviewed the engineer behind that. But it could be the same team.
I don’t know if you’ve seen, like they actually have, it’s a one-legged robot that can bounce around on that one leg, and they actually can have this thing and they can drive it around here in the lab with a remote control, and it just goes boing, boing, boing, boing, boing, boing, boing, boing, and they can actually operate it like a rover, yet it can hop from across varying and weird terrain.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And so the idea here is it has this one leg, and the leg touches down, and the important part of your hopper goes down the leg, capturing the energy in the process, and then it uses some mechanism, often expanding gas, to fling itself back up the leg and initiate the hop. And so you’re once again looking at that conservation of momentum process. There’s also the spring energy involved.
There’s a little bit of combustion with the hopping mechanism that’s using expanding gases. And so it allows you to be, in some ways, much more effective with your expanding gases to hop around than just using expanding gases, which is like what IM2’s GRACE mission would have done had it been allowed to operate.
Fraser Cain: The thing I like about that mission, and the one that I did the interview, so it has two wheels as well, which are at 90 degrees of each other. And so they act as reaction wheels. And so then the hopper, if it falls over onto the ground, it can roll around on these wheels, and then it can position its hopper leg underneath itself and then hop again.
And then it uses the reaction wheels to maintain its position and even rotation while it’s upward. So you can sort of mix and match. And a lot of the issues that you may be thinking of, like, well, what if it falls over?
Well, it can right itself, prepare for another jump, and then just get back into jumping. And in fact, it might be necessary that if these things are solar powered or some kind of battery, then they’re going to have to hop for a while until the battery runs out, and then they’re going to have to rest, refill their batteries, and then begin the hopping process all over again. And so you can kind of mix and match.
And so you get the reaction wheels that keep it stable, but also allow it to drive around on the surface, depending on the terrain.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And being able to put yourself upright again is kind of the dream.
Fraser Cain: Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: I’m so tired of missions falling over. Yes.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Yeah. That should be like now, like, has to be mandatory that you’ve got to put some kind of writing arm on your on your lander.
It would save so many problems if they just had a little arm that could push themselves back upright. I mean, I guess not if they broke their leg, but anyway. Yeah.
So there are a bunch of hoppers and they have been proposed, you know, imagine you have this one on Enceladus that is jumping back and forth through the plumes, taking samples as it just jumps from crag to crag around on Enceladus, something jumping across the surface of Mars, down into deep, deep craters, something on the surface of Mercury that’s getting a lot of electricity from solar panels that are just being filled up. Hoppers that could work on, you know, asteroids, things like that.
You know, how are there any that are like really considering being deployed? I know of one, but if you know any others.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Well, so there was grace that was planned. May it rest in peace in whatever crater it landed in. And, and I space has payloads on it that it just lists as and other payloads.
So the one they’re talking about is they have a rover on board. That’s just like a traditional little wheels to go. So I don’t know of any right now, but this is where, you know, the missions that haven’t launched far better than I do.
So hand it over to you.
Fraser Cain: Yes, that’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So the Chinese are planning one with their, with one of their upcoming lunar landers.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Okay.
Fraser Cain: And it’s going to have a hopper on board, but I think you’re right. There’s a, it’s an eye space or it’s an intuitive machines. There’s a bunch of these.
And then the Japanese space agency is planning various versions of this, considering this for their upcoming mission to Phobos sample return mission to Phobos. So there’s a bunch in the works and I think we will see more and more of these as this technology gets, gets developed more. Okay.
So hoppers. Uh, let’s talk about things that can fly, you know, obviously we know about ingenuity, but what else?
Dr. Pamela Gay: So ingenuity was a traditional helicopter with the main rotor, uh, which they tend to be more stable, but they require one large fiddly engine and don’t have redundancy with the dragon fly mission. They want redundancy. And so they have their own rotor craft.
It’s 450 kilograms and it has, uh, it’s not a quad copter. It’s an optic copter and this mission can handle if one of its engines decides, I won’t, I won’t do the work today. I, so they had, they have the ability to fly on diminished numbers of rotors the same way we see we have Mars rovers that can rove with a diminished numbers of wheels.
And this allows missions to keep going even when stuff breaks and stuff does break.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Especially in those kinds of conditions. Like what a, it’s cold.
There’s hydrocarbons everywhere that’s going to turn into like soot that’ll get into some of its mechanisms.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah.
Fraser Cain: That could be a bad day.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. Yeah. So, so as we start trying to understand what are the ways to go, it really depends on what size you’re looking at and how much redundancy you’re worried about.
Um, the control systems for quad copters require a lot more computational ability. I, the engines can be much smaller, much lighter. I, the counterbalances helicopters are much more stable, require less computational power, but have no redundancies.
And uh, then you just keep adding writers after that.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. So that’s all that’s firm that we know of. And so now I’m going to move into the stuff that are proposed and planned.
Um, you know, the, the obvious solution. Like now that with the success of ingenuity, the obvious answer is let’s put a helicopter on everything. Like they’re so light, can produce such amazing science.
They serve as the scout that you can bring. So uh, the Chinese are considering a helicopter with their sample return mission, something that could go a little further afield from the landing spot to try and grab some interesting samples.
Dr. Pamela Gay: You can only do this on worlds with atmospheres, just to be clear.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Um, and then there’s an, an really interesting proposal for a helicopter was it was presented at the recent lunar and planetary science conference. I forget the name of it, but it would be like a beefier version of ingenuity.
So it would still be a twin rotor, like, like, you know, a helicopter with like two rotors on top of each other, if it’s spinning in opposite directions to keep balanced, but it would have, um, or maybe no, actually they had proposed an, uh, hexacopter. That’s right. So it would have six rotors and it would be like a drone with six rotors.
And then it would have the ability to carry a fairly large payload, like a couple of kilograms would be able to fly for longer periods of time before it had to come down and recharge. And there’s some, you know, some really interesting regions that we want to explore like Valles Marineris. So you can imagine a helicopter taking off from the rim of Valles Marineris and dropping into the largest, um, chasm, you know, longest, largest chasm in the solar system and exploring that.
Dr. Pamela Gay: That would be amazing.
Fraser Cain: Yes, please. Yeah. Um, and there’s also some really interesting jumbled terrain that it would be a nightmare for, uh, any kind of rover.
And yet it tells us some really interesting information about the, you know, the formation of Mars, its current volcanic activity, things like that. So, um, uh, yeah, those are, those are some ideas. So I think we’re going to see plenty more helicopters going to Mars in the, in the future.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And what I’m intrigued by is Boston Dynamics does insane legged robots. And to be clear, bipedal robots are not the most effective things out there, but there are many legged, often learning from insects, how to move, uh, tiny things are capable of scaling all sorts of wild, crazy terrains. And so we’ve gotten so frustrated now and then with things like Percy struggled through a boulder field, trying to find the right place to cross a dry river bed.
And, uh, curiosity has stared at various skate landscapes multiple times and been like, I shall not climb that.
Fraser Cain: Nope. Yeah. That looks too steep and too sandy and I could get stuck.
No thank you.
Dr. Pamela Gay: But these little spidery things that look straight out of Stargate. If you remember the, the, uh, the, the, the replica, the replicants, yeah, if you remember the replicants, Boston Dynamics has built some very similar looking things and, and take those and start building yourself a wifi network and exploding out from your base. And that’s kind of an awesome way to climb down into a crater and climb right back out.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. All right. We’re going to get weird in a second and talk about some really strange ideas for rovers.
But first it’s time for another break and we’re back. All right. So you started to introduce the idea of spider-like robots and again, you know, people are, are developing versions of this, you know, insect like walking structures.
That’s great. What other really innovative ideas have you seen?
Dr. Pamela Gay: So it’s, it requires going with a friend, which in general is a good idea. Back in the Google Lunar XPRIZE days, there were teams that were looking at, you have your main rover, and then you have a little dude with two wheels and a lot of rope. And you essentially go attached to the big rover, zooming out, and then you lower yourself essentially on your own built in winch into whatever hole it is you’re coming up on.
And there are caved in lava tunnels on both the moon and Mars. And on both worlds, you don’t have a sufficient magnetic field or sufficient atmosphere to protect you from radiation from space. And getting into these tunnels is probably one of the safest places we can eventually put ourselves.
And getting to go and explore these with these winch enabled little two wheeled devices is just kind of awesome.
Fraser Cain: People have described it like mountain climbers who are like roping off of each other. And so you could have a, you know, the, as you say, the main, the main part that is able to clamp in and hold tight, and then it can deploy a smaller rover out on a cable, maybe let it go at the end of the cable or reel it back in and then go look somewhere else. Yeah, that’s a great idea.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And this is where I have to admit, because you read all of the stuff that hasn’t happened yet. I just want to sit back and listen to who you’ve interviewed about what weird stuff is coming in the future.
Fraser Cain: Oh my God, I’ve got, there’s so many. Okay.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So what’s your favorite?
Fraser Cain: Well, oh man. So my favorite is the idea of a submarine on Titan. So, you know, we know that Titan has these oceans at the, near the Northern pole of liquid methane.
And it’s actually surprising, methane, liquid methane, ethane are very clear optically. And so you could deploy a submarine that could go down to the bottom of one of these lakes and could then send messages back through the material to some orbiting spacecraft and, and, you know, explain what it’s seeing. People have proposed a sailboat on Titan, that there is actually enough wind on Titan that you could deploy a sailboat into one of these and it could then tack around and explore and then maybe even deploy a submarine as well.
People have proposed snake bots. So you know, these are being used here on earth for like exploring disaster, yeah, exactly. Exploring disaster zones.
And so you could deploy one of these things into, it could crawl into some kind of jumbled up terrain, crawl down into a lava tube, be able to explore around. There’s been a whole host of really interesting balloon ideas. On Mars, it doesn’t work that well, but what you would do is you would have a balloon that would, that you would put some kind of gas and then during the day, the heat would fill up the balloon.
It would, it would rise up off the surface, fly around, and then when night fell, it would sink down to the surface, rest on the side of Mars, and then it would take off again and continue going around. And so you could explore, you know, large chunks of Mars just by using this, this technique. But balloons work really well on Venus.
And so people have proposed that you would be able to have a balloon that could last in the, in the high atmosphere of Venus for long periods of time. And one idea is you use solar power to suck in the carbon dioxide atmosphere of it, and then you turn that into your lifting gas. So you can extract out the different things that you require to be able to create this lifting gas.
And so you would constantly be able to keep replenishing your, your gas from the atmosphere of Venus. And then you could explore and then you could deploy that, you know, you could deploy a long cable with a rover on the end of it that you could try, or a probe on the end of it that you could go down to lower altitudes.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And Titan. You can also do this on Titan, to be clear.
Fraser Cain: Yes. Yeah. Balloons were great on Titan, although, you know, it’s cold.
So that’s always really tricky. But if you’re, you know, if you have helium, you know, for as long as you can keep the helium in the system, or if you can break up the methane and get at the hydrogen, there’s, there’s ways that you can do that.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And methane is, is quite easy to use to heat things if you want to provide your own heat to the gas.
Fraser Cain: Right. But if you can bring your oxygen, like that’s always the challenge is you need to supply the oxygen. Um, so one of the, I would say one of the weirdest ideas, and this is something that, that NASA is actually testing out, is a rover that crawls on the underside of ice.
And so you have like these, these sea ice apps around Antarctica and they’ve built a rover that floats where it will float up against the underside of the ice and then it can drive around underneath the ice as if it’s driving around on the surface of some smooth material. And it, you know, they’re using it to explore looking for signs of extreme of falls and things like that. But you can imagine this is the kind of thing that might end up in, uh, say if there’s a probe, it’s going to try to melt through the ice on Enceladus or Europa, and then you deploy these guys and then they would just crawl around on the, on the, you know, the shell, the ice shell looking for, for interesting stuff.
Um, NASA is also testing out little, uh, swimming bots, things that can actually sort of kick with flippers and, and, you know, go underwater and go for long periods of time. And so again, something that you could maybe have a melt probe that goes down through the ice on Enceladus or, or Europa, and then deploy these guys and then they’d swim around, uh, looking for, you know, Europa and space whales, obviously. Um, and then like even crazier ideas, like people have been testing out, um, earthworm like stuff that can, um, you know, use the same kind of locomotion where they sort of inflate different parts of their section and be able to, to move and turn and move through various, uh, tight spaces.
So, you know, every single idea that has been proposed, every, you know, the, all the different ways that, uh, people have figured out how to move here on earth, you know, life has found a way, people are considering ways that they can adapt that to work on, on other worlds. And so I think, you know, we are going to see some future where some Mars explorers going to, you know, put their hand out and a little helicopter will take off to give them a good sense of the terrain. You can imagine them walking up to some, some jumbled rocks and deploying a little sneak bot that’ll, they’ll go inside and look around, uh, that there’ll be, as you say, rappelling down the side of a cliff to, to look, get down to the bottom or inside a lava tube.
It’s amazing the kinds of ideas that are, that are possible. Manta ray type flying, uh, vehicles on Venus that would rise and fall depending on, on sort of the, how much energy they have and how much lifting gas they have. You can imagine the, you know, dipping down deep to, to, to explore the, the lower altitude.
And then as it gets too hot, they, they rise back up again and cool themselves off and replenish all of their supplies. So yeah, there’s, there’s been some amazing ideas that people are working on.
Dr. Pamela Gay: It’s, it’s going to be a wild future getting to watch all of this stuff coming into existence and, and I can’t wait to see it.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. And I like ingenuity just to demonstrate it without a doubt, without question that everything needs a helicopter on Mars. You’ve got to bring helicopters.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And, and dragonfly, it can’t get there fast enough. The future flies in so many different ways.
Fraser Cain: Totally does. Awesome. Thanks, Pamela.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Thank you, Fraser. And thank you to everyone out there who’s part of our Patreon. Uh, this week I have a new slate of names to thank this week.
I would like to thank Alex Cohen, Andrew Stevenson, Bob Crail, Boogie Nett, uh, Brian Cagle, Brian Cook, Buzz Parsec, Cooper, Daniel Loosley, David Gates, uh, David Rosetta, Disastrina, Felix Gute, uh, Gerhard Schweitzer, Helga Bjorkog, J. Alex Anderson, James Roger, Jeff Hoinmorder, uh, Jimmy Drake, John Drake, John Faiz, Jonathan Poe, Katie Byrne, Katie Annulisa, Keith Murray, Kimberly Rake, Christiane Magerholt, uh, Laura Kettleson, Les Howard, Mark Schneider, Masa Herleyu, Matt Rucker, Mike Dogg, Noah Albertson, Paul, Paula Spazito, Philip Walker, Planitar Rando, RJ Basque, Ron Thorson, Sachi Takaba, Slug, Taz Tully, The Air Major, The Big Squish Squash, The Land, Lonely Sandperson, Thomas Gazetta, and Time Lord Iroh. Thank you all so very much.
Fraser Cain: Thanks, everyone, and we will see you next week.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Bye.
Live Show
Computers are getting smaller, faster and more capable, which has enabled an entirely mew class of satellites: CubeSats. A mission small enough that you can hold it in your hands, and yet powerful enough to even travel to other planets and send messages home.
Every year, our electronics seem to get smaller and more powerful, with today’s smart watches being more fully featured than the computers Pamela and Fraser had as little kids. These tiny processors, sensors, and transmitters are allowing tiny satellites with powerful functionality, and today we take a look at how this is changing space exploration.
Show Notes* What Are CubeSats? * Tech That Made CubeSats Possible * Capabilities & Missions * Challenges * Creative Solutions * Applications * Educational Impact * Successes & Future
TranscriptFraser Cain: AstronomyCast, Episode 757, CubeSats. Welcome to AstronomyCast, our weekly facts-based journey through the Cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I’m Fraser Cain, I’m the Publisher of Universe Today.
With me as always is Dr. Pamela Gay, a Senior Scientist for the Planetary Science Institute and the Director of Cosmos Quest. Hey Pamela, how are you doing?
Dr. Pamela Gay: I am doing well, and I want to thank all of you out there who reached out to see if I was okay after all of the tornadoes that went through the St. Louis area.
Fraser Cain: Yeah, it was buzzing on my news, I’m like, Pamela, are you alright?
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah, and a whole bunch of you that I’ve never had the pleasure of meeting before reached out to check on me, and everything in my town is completely okay. There was a radar-confirmed tornado that went over where I live, but didn’t touch down. So, our power wasn’t so good, but everything else was fine, and this is just another one of the signs of spring, along with I still have poison ivy, so tornadoes, poison ivy, and we had the first murdered groundhog of the season.
This is the part of spring I do not like.
Fraser Cain: Yeah, people always send me the RUOKs for the earthquakes that happen in my area, but the problem is, mine don’t come with seasons, so I can’t go, oh, summer’s here, it’s earthquake time. No, they just happen randomly, but yeah, I’m really glad you guys are safe, and I’m sorry about your groundhog, and I’m sorry about your poison ivy, that stuff sucks.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah, yeah, hopefully we will be past this time of year when there are dumb baby groundhogs everywhere, and we now know, it was the very first day that they came out of the burrow, and now I know, they’re here, and the dogs cannot go out without oversight.
Fraser Cain: Right, yeah. Computers are getting smaller, faster, and more capable, which has enabled an entirely new class of satellites, CubeSats, a mission small enough that you could hold it in your hands and yet powerful enough to even travel to other planets and send messages home, and we will talk about it in a second, but it’s time for a break. And we’re back.
Alright, CubeSats. Now, I mean, this is a unfolding story that has been happening for a couple of decades at this point, but it’s still pretty amazing how many people are building CubeSats, what they’re capable of, how small they are, how inexpensive they are, and just what they’re capable of accomplishing. So where do you want to start in our conversation about CubeSats?
Dr. Pamela Gay: I think the best thing to do is to point out that the smartwatches so many of us have are like as powerful as the Apple computer I had when I was a little child. And when you go from something that was like arm-sized to something that is watch-sized in that number of decades, it allows the satellite technology to also advance. And so the definition of a CubeSat is something that is made out of units of cubes that are 10 centimeters by 10 centimeters, which is like an oversized Rubik’s cube in size.
So think of a chunky Rubik’s cube, and that’s the size of these satellites. And they don’t get launched on their own. They’re always secondary to something, which means that they’re cheap to make because they’re tiny and they’re cheap to launch because they’re ride shares.
Fraser Cain: OK, so let’s talk about that size first. So 10 centimeters by 10 centimeters by 10 centimeters. I don’t know, was that three inches for the Imperial people out there?
So that is one U, right? Yes. Yes.
OK. And so then you will measure your CubeSat in the number of U’s that are in it. So give me a sense of how big, like a proper mission.
There aren’t many one U CubeSats out there, although I think they do exist.
Dr. Pamela Gay: There’s actually lots of low Earth orbit, one unit CubeSats, and that size is the size when they’re folded up and packed up to go. So for instance, there’s a lot of problems with figuring out how to do propulsion on these things that we’ll get to. And so if you happen to have a solar sail on your one unit CubeSat, that solar sail is clearly not going to be just 10 centimeters by 10 centimeters.
Fraser Cain: Right. Right. It’s going to deploy and then be a larger sail.
Yeah. Yeah. Or antenna or solar panels, like all kinds of things flip out of these little guys once they’re in space.
Dr. Pamela Gay: So the the multi-planetary missions that I’m finding, which is like something we do now, those are typically six unit CubeSats. So you take six of these 10 centimeter by 10 centimeter objects and plop them together in the configuration that works best for your mission. And then you can go and like fly to the asteroid belt, fly to Mars.
Fraser Cain: Yes. And these are things we’re doing. And what kinds of of like capabilities do these things have?
Dr. Pamela Gay: So the first thing they need to be able to do because of the insane ways in which they’re launched, which can include being flung out by a human being, thrown off the International Space Station. This is a they literally yeet.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Yeah. They’ve got like a bag of them and they’re just hucking them off the station, which is amazing.
Dr. Pamela Gay: It’s awesome. So it turns out in the process of yeeting CubeSats, sometimes they collide with each other. They get these random rotations set up.
So they need to be able to stabilize themselves for a lot of purposes. There are satellites that have like omnidirectional antenna and they’re not doing anything particularly needing to be pointed in a given direction. But for the majority of these suckers.
Fraser Cain: Yep.
Dr. Pamela Gay: They want to be able to orient themselves, right? So they do have reaction wheels. They do have various ways of using magnets and thrust.
And so you have a thrust system and you have an orientation system and a communication system. Those are basically the three things all of these suckers are going to have.
Fraser Cain: And for the ones that are in low Earth orbit, like there are some really elegant solutions for this kind of problem. Because you said magnets like you can use you can run electricity along a wire and that will cause the thing to align itself with the Earth’s magnetic field.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Very slowly.
Fraser Cain: Very slowly.
Dr. Pamela Gay: But it works. Fine.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. And it doesn’t require very much energy at all. And then you’ve and then you’re lined up.
Dr. Pamela Gay: These are not what you want to use if you’re impatient and want to do anything quickly.
Fraser Cain: Right. If you always just want to be pointing down or you always want to be pointing up, right? As opposed to, I want to look at this target, look at that target, look at this target.
Yeah
Dr. Pamela Gay: And they can have reaction wheels. So where it can take time is if you just like get something off the ISS and it hits something else and it’s like tumbling wildly. It can take a hot minute to use.
They can actually max out the reaction wheels trying to get these things reoriented the way they want. So once you get them oriented, though, they’re low mass there, you can maneuver them. There’s been some cool uses of, of using them to, to image Earth.
I mean, if you think about what your phone is capable of doing and it’s way smaller than a CubeSat stick, a phone like, and they actually use a lot of cell phone technology on these things.
Fraser Cain: Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah.
Fraser Cain: Cell phone cameras, accelerometers, memory systems, CPUs, Snapdragons, all this kind of stuff finds its way into these CubeSats.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. It’s, it gets commercially developed and then tested and CubeSats gets certified as space hardware this way. The only, so, so getting them lined up isn’t too huge a deal where they really suffer though is in the propulsion department.
And this is simply because there’s a whole lot of restrictions launching them where they’re not allowed to be pressurized over 1.5 atmospheres. And if you think about wanting to chunk them full of fuel in a little tiny canister, you’re not going to be able to do that. You can only have so much potentially explosive chemical fuel on board.
And the reason for all these restrictions is they are not the primary passenger on anything they’re launching on. And including a small, somewhat explosive bundle that can take out your main satellite is, is not something any rocket company is going to do.
Fraser Cain: You can hitchhike as long as you’re not a bomb.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Right. Exactly.
Fraser Cain: Right. Okay. So they, they have a method, but they will have propulsion.
So they use like little compressed gas methods, ion engines.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Hall effect engines. One of the cooler things that I was reading about is they will use a sail that is not exactly a solar sail in the normal sense. It is a sail that has a electric field on it.
So it is interacting with protons off the sun. So it’s just a slightly different way of doing a sail, but it’s considered electric propulsion.
Fraser Cain: It’s a mag sail.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah, exactly.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. And electric sails. Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And, and so you have electric sails, ion engines, Hall effect engines. And then of course, solar sails is going to be the way of the future.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately.
So there was one that was launched on with the Artemis one mission.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. There was a whole bunch of CubeSats.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. And one of them though was a, was an asteroid exploring solar sail mission packed into a CubeSat and unfortunately it failed, but it would have been an amazing test of this, of this technology because it would, it would have had to use its solar sail to get itself all the way to this asteroid that it was going to be exploring. And unfortunately it failed and NASA’s moving on with their next solar sail.
But still that’s the, that’s the future that could have been. All right. We’re going to continue this conversation, but it is time for another break and we’re back.
All right. So we’ve talked about propulsion. Let’s talk about, you know, some of the other core functionality that this, you know, the CubeSat is going to require before we get into payloads.
Cause that’s like the best part is the, is the actual payload. But I guess we need some kind of processing. We need a communication system.
So what have we got for there?
Dr. Pamela Gay: They tend to use omni directional antenna. They’re, they’re usually limited to just two Watts, which makes that a really horrifying thing to think about. Your local radio station is in the thousands of Watts and giant antennas and you still can no longer get it with your car radio when you drive too many miles.
Well these little big Rubik’s cube size flying objects that are hundreds of miles above the earth to multiple astronomical units away from the earth in their smallest form have two Watt antenna.
Fraser Cain: That’s one of the great sadnesses about this process is you would be amazed how inexpensive it is to build and launch one of these, 100,000 per unit normally, including launch, but people are even bringing those costs down, but you need a way to be able to communicate with it. So that doesn’t include giant radio dish or antenna array that allows you to communicate with your CubeSat when it’s flying overhead in under perfect conditions and you can get just a, you know, kilobits per second from this radio system to be able to pull your data off your thing. So you might be, you might’ve put a 4k amazing camera that’s capable of recording this beautiful video of the earth at 60 frames a second, but you can’t get that data off of the thing.
Dr. Pamela Gay: No, no, you cannot, but multiple unit ones have more power so they can have stronger antennas. Otherwise we couldn’t communicate with them at multiple AUs. And there’s interesting plans to start doing things like inflatable antenna dishes.
So instead of just having your little squiggly antenna sticking out, they’re looking at systems and this was being developed at the jet propulsion lab, may they not murder this project, where it comes out and then just inflates into this big, gorgeous antenna. And so little things like this, if you’ve ever read about like using a Pringles can to increase the power of your home wifi, this is the space-based version of a Pringles can. It’s just inflatable so that you can have it be tiny on launch.
Fraser Cain: And with the rise of satellite mega constellations that are allowing us to communicate from anywhere on earth, there’s a sort of a new layer of communication between these CubeSats and things like Starlink or Kuiper or things like that. So what had been one of the largest issues, how are you going to get data off this thing, is starting to be solved by this infrastructure. And I think we’re going to see a time where if you launch a CubeSat, you will pay a service that you can just pay to retransmit your data through these various satellite networks.
And now suddenly that communication requirement becomes a lot easier because there’s this infrastructure. Let’s talk about power.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. So they’re for the most part using solar power, solar power with batteries. It’s what you do.
And so you are again limited by your ability to do origami. This is the way space goes. You origami your solar sails, you origami your solar panels, you origami your antennae.
And then the thing that was a whole bunch of 10 centimeter by 10 centimeter cubes turns into like amazing looking satellite. Yeah.
Fraser Cain: Some kind of transformer.
Dr. Pamela Gay: I love it.
Fraser Cain: Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: They need to do more videos of like what this process looks like. We don’t get to see it nearly often enough. But yeah, it’s solar panels all the way down.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. And so you’ll see these things, they will flop out a couple of times. Sometimes it’s several folds.
And what was a 10 centimeter by 10 centimeter piece of the satellite flops out into three 10 by 30 or maybe even 30 by 30 or even bigger. They can flop out more and more of them and try and be able to collect as much power as required for the mission. And then of course, part of that control thing is keeping those solar panels filled with energy.
So it is a big challenge. But it is, you know, the miniaturization is, is helping that happen because it’s, it’s making the power demands of all of the parts of the satellite lower and lower and lower, making that part simpler. All right.
I want to move on to the, to the, the actual missions and the actual science that can be done with these, but it’s time for another break and we’re back. All right. So let’s talk about the science.
What can you do with a CubeSat?
Dr. Pamela Gay: So my favorite thing that has been done so far was the two satellites, they traveled within sites. So the, the two CubeSats, Mars One mission, it was two sets of six unit CubeSats. Now, normally.
Fraser Cain: Those are the Marcos.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah, the Marcos. So normally when, when you have something landing on Mars, you might have one of the standards like Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, Mars Odyssey, one of these orbital missions that’s working as a relay satellite for you. And the relay satellites can’t simultaneously receive and transmit on the same frequencies.
So this means we don’t generally get real time telemetry from the missions. Well, what they could do was use these CubeSats to send the telemetry back. So we were able to get data during landing that we’ve never been able to get before just by using them as a, as a relay.
They took some images. They then continued on throughout the solar system.
Fraser Cain: It was a flyby for them.
Dr. Pamela Gay: It was a flyby for them. They did not have the propulsion abilities to get themselves into orbit.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. And that was really a dramatic improvement because you had CubeSats, 6U CubeSats, as you’re saying, that were capable of sending and receiving signals from Mars to Earth. And normally you sort of think about it, you would flip it around and you’d say, well, we could send CubeSats to Mars.
They’re not going to be able to communicate home. But if there’s a relay there, then we could use a relay. Like maybe they could send their messages through Reconnaissance Orbiter or Mars Express or something like that.
But in this case, they were the relay. They were doing the heavy lifting of the communicating back and forth, which was an amazing proof of concept and, you know, and will show us what could be. And then, and then you could have the other way.
Like if there is infrastructure at Mars, you could have the other way where you, you just send CubeSats there. You know, they don’t need a lot of transmission because they just have to be able to communicate with some kind of relay there at Mars or at Jupiter or at Saturn. Like imagine this future where you’ve got a giant transmitter at Jupiter and its only job is to send messages home.
And then you send a thousand CubeSats at Jupiter and they all just keep communicating with the big transmitter. So, so it’s a, it’s a really interesting way to sort of look at the future of space exploration.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And it allows countries that don’t normally have the budgets to do big budget missions to get engaged. So with the DART mission that went to Didymos and Dimorphos, this was a primarily NASA mission smacked itself into Dimorphos. Afterwards, it’s not like the dead mission can really send any information home.
But flying alongside was LuciaCube, which was an Italian space agency mission. It was another six unit CubeSat. It took not the highest resolution images one has ever seen, but it took images and it was able to send those home and it paved the way for the European space agencies.
Hera mission has two. I have no idea how to pronounce these. I’m like staring at what I wrote down going, I’m just going to say, I don’t know how to pronounce these.
Hera is traveling with two CubeSats of its own. Wavaton, Wavaton and Malani. They really need to like put little audio recordings of their missions on their website.
Fraser Cain: Somebody from the European space agency saying the name correctly in their native tongue. Yeah.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yes, we need this. And so this is now one of the things we do is we send these missions. And what’s cool with LuciaCube, it’s now on its way to another asteroid.
So it was used to watch what DART was up to. And now it’s going to do further exploration.
Fraser Cain: That’s so cool. The Chinese have mastered this idea of the little floating selfie. When you had the Tianwen mission arrive at Mars, when it was in orbit, it released a selfie, a little, just a tiny little camera that was able to take a picture of itself.
So that just, you know, like literally just a selfie, like, you know, Hey, I’m in front of Mars and send that home. Like I’m sure like check to make sure that the spacecraft is doing fine. There’s no damage and blah, blah, blah.
But no, it was a selfie. Now, what about, what about the earth? Because, you know, we talked about some solar system exploration, but this is where CubeSats really shine.
It’s helping us to explore the earth and to be space telescopes.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Right. And it’s how we’re testing technologies left and right. And this goes back to the origins of CubeSats.
So the very first CubeSats came out of a collaboration between Cal Poly and Stanford back in 1999. The idea was we want university students to start being able to do space-based research. And this is a way we can do it by setting up a off-the-shelf platform with, I mean, it’s essentially the Raspberry Pi and some of them actually use Raspberry Pis.
It’s the Raspberry Pi of satellites where you just go to your, it’s a website. You go to a website that sells components. You figure out what pieces you want and you can assign your class.
Fraser Cain: Yes.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Go do this thing.
Fraser Cain: A huge chunk of, of CubeSats are done by university classes, by students. And this is the exact thing. They’re given a budget.
The launch is paid for. Their job is to build the satellite during their, during their class. Yeah.
And, and try to answer some kind of scientific question about the earth or demonstrate some kind of technology in space. Yeah. Using this CubeSat platform.
And, and everything has become so streamlined now. You said like usually you ride as a ride share, but there are like standalone CubeSat launches. SpaceX will occasionally do one where it launches, I don’t know, 60 satellites.
Just a collection of CubeSats all packed together into, you know, they’re some kind of Tetris shape to be able to launch these things into space. So that is one of the things, which is great because in the olden days, you know, you would go to university and you couldn’t actually work on a mission until you had your chops and you were part of NASA or ESA or whatever. And now, yeah, you, you show up in getting your aerospace engineering degree at some university and you’re building a satellite that’s going to launch and, and do some kind of function.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And what’s wild is if you go to Kickstarter, there are people who are kickstarting their, their CubeSats. And over the years, we’ve seen them where like you can use the API to have a CubeSat take an image for you of your place on the planet and send it back to you. And it’s thoroughly silly at a certain level, but we are getting to the point where we can start to imagine launching as a small business.
You can imagine like farm companies, fertilizer companies using this to launch a small satellite that can replace just one hyper specific thing that we’re no longer able to do. Because it turns out a lot of earth satellites are in the process of falling out of the sky in the next couple of years. It’s really troubling.
But if you launch one little CubeSat that can do one very specific thing, you can start to get what your company needs to continue functioning. And you can do it for a few hundred thousand dollars, depending on the size you need.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. So even though there are amateur groups that are coming together to build satellites, there’s a lot of great ways to do this.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Amateur ham radio folks are using them.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. And so you can imagine that this technology will continue to advance, that we’ll get more and more intelligence into the chips, that we’ll be able to process data and try to do some of the data reduction on sites. You can send less data back home.
So this is a thriving industry and you can expect it to continue to grow and miniaturize until, I don’t know, they disappear and still do work out there in space.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And it’s unfortunately, they do have a high death rate.
Fraser Cain: Yes. Yeah. I mean, even for launch, but yeah, they don’t last long.
I mean, you won’t see your CubeSat for more than five, you know, lasting more than five years. They don’t last long.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And they often die on launch because again, they do like hit each other as they get yeeted.
Fraser Cain: And you just can’t afford to put in the kind of testing, put it in a vacuum chamber, put it on a shake test, spend the kind of money that’s required to ensure that thing is as robust as might be required for your mission. Yeah. The failure rate on CubeSats is pretty high.
Dr. Pamela Gay: Yeah. So they are high risk, but the return on investment when they do work is about as good as it gets. And this is how we’re testing tomorrow’s hardware today.
It’s a great way to try out new ideas.
Fraser Cain: Yeah. So there was a story that we reported on Universe Today about some students who were proposing to build a CubeSat, like a 6U CubeSat that would test out a new kind of ultraviolet space telescope and a new kind of mirror technology. So a new kind of sensor, a new kind of mirror technology on a CubeSat.
And that this would decrease or increase the technological readiness because it would only cost you a couple hundred thousand dollars and you would take this possible technology methodology that could be used for a future giant flagship ultraviolet telescope and just test it in space. And then you know whether or not this system actually works in that environment. And then you decrease that or increase, I forget the way you say it.
Level one in technological readiness is it’s just an idea. Level nine is that it’s been tested in space. So you’re going to be increasing the technological readiness.
And we saw that with James Webb, that it had a bunch of low technological readiness level advances that needed to be built. And that a lot of the budget overrun that happened with James Webb and the time overrun came because these things were hard and someone had to figure out how to do them. And so you can go and look at the things which are really good ideas but they haven’t been proven in space.
You package it up into a CubeSat and you toss it out a window and now you can show that it actually works in space. So it’s a really great technology that’s going to help space exploration in so many ways.
Dr. Pamela Gay: And this is where the Artemis 1 had an entire suite of CubeSats on board. Now the CubeSats that they selected all had to be using technologies that were TR-9, previously tested in space level technologies, but they were combined in new ways. These were new ideas.
And going to the moon with CubeSats, this is the future. This is how we’re going to be able to readily communicate with all the little things we’re planning to stick all over the moon in the coming years. It’s the way of the future and I am really looking forward to the day that hopefully will come in the next five years as the asteroid Apophis flies past our planet.
It’s going to be close enough that we should be able to like just go meet gravity well with some CubeSats as it zips on by and now we have CubeSats following an asteroid that likes to get uncomfortably close to our planet and that will be fun. Yeah, very cool. All right, thanks Pamela.
Thank you Fraser and thank you so much to all of the folks out there that mean I don’t have to fundraise for Astronomy Cast. You guys make it possible for me to keep the team going, keep our servers going and I am so grateful. So this week I would like to thank Alexis, Antasaur, ArcticFox, Borja Andralevsval, Benjamin Carrier, Benjamin Mueller, Bresnik, Bruce Amazine, Burry Gowan, Claudia Mastriani, David, David Bogarty, David Green, Dr. Jeff Collins, Dwight Ilk, Ed, Elliot Walker, Fairchild, just as it sounds, Father Prax, Frank Stewart, Hal McKinney, Janelle, Jeremy Kerwin, Joanne Mulvey, Joe Holstein, John Herman, Kate Sindretto, Kenneth Ryan, Lee Harbourn, Lou Zealand, Matthias Hayden, Michael Hartford, Michael Purchada, Michael Regan, Mike Haizu, Nala, Papa Hotdog, Paul L. Hayden, Pauline Middleink, Philip Grand, Robbie the dog with a dot, Reuben McCarthy, Sam Brooks and his mom, Sergey Manilov, Steve Rutley, Tiffany Rogers, Tim Garrish, Travis C. Porco, Wanderer M101 and Will Hamilton.
Thank you all so very much. Thanks everyone and we will see you next week. Bye-bye.
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Image: M33 Transcript(Automatically generated)
Fraser Cain [00:01:11] Astronomy Cast episode 719 – The Galaxy series: Spiral Galaxies. Welcome to Astronomy Cast, a weekly fact based journey through the cosmos where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I’m Fraser Cain the publisher of Universe Today. With me, as always, is Doctor Pamela Gay, a senior scientist for the Planetary Science Institute and the director of CosmoQuest. Hey, Pamela, how you doing?
Pamela Gay [00:01:33] I am doing well. When folks are hearing this episode, you’re going to be off in Japan. And that is amazing.
Fraser Cain [00:01:43] Yeah, yeah, we’re making up for that trip. So four years ago in 2020, I booked a trip. Actually, in 2019, I booked a trip to Japan for my son and with my son. And then Covid hit and things got pretty dicey. And so we decided to cancel the trip. And it’s been four years. And now, like, what’s Covid? Who remembers that anymore? So .. so we’re going to do it again. And you know now he’s older and a lot wiser. And I think it’s going to be a really fun time. So yeah yeah. By the time you listen to this we will have been in Japan for a week. And you know, people are like, are you going to do this? Or you can do that. Like, I have no plans. This is purely vacation. I and you know, if I run across Jaxa as I turn a corner in some neighborhood, then sure, I’ll walk in. But I had no plans. I’m not booking things, doing interviews, any of that. I’m going to bring a camera. But … but apart from that, no, this is just purely fun. I want to eat some tasty sushi and noodles. I want to walk around cool parks and temples. I want to ride bullet trains. And I want to meet people there.
Pamela Gay [00:02:53] So yeah, I, I have to say, I haven’t found sushi there that was any better than what I’ve gotten in the US. Other than you can get Fugu there, which you can’t get in the U.S..
Fraser Cain [00:03:05] No, thanks.
Pamela Gay [00:03:06] But the ramen, I had ramen. That is the stuff of dreams. And may you find such.
Fraser Cain [00:03:15] I’m looking forward.
Pamela Gay [00:03:15] To the ramen places.
Fraser Cain [00:03:17] Yeah, yeah, that sounds great.
Our Galaxy series continues on to spirals. In fact, you’re living in one right now. But telescopes show us the various shapes and sizes these galaxies come in. Thanks, Joe is t. We are learning how these spirals got big early on in the universe. All right, Pamela, spiral galaxies. And this is obviously familiar territory because we live in one.
Pamela Gay [00:03:44] We do. Although living in it has made it particularly challenging to study.
Fraser Cain [00:03:49] Right.
Pamela Gay [00:03:50] Like we figured out, there’s a bar in the center of our galaxy only within the past couple of decades. We still see every few years, they change their mind on exactly how far we are from the core of the galaxy.
Fraser Cain [00:04:07] How many arms the Milky Way have, right? Is the last episode we talked about. You know, different controversies are still unfolding. And one of those is how many spiral arms does the Milky Way have? This is a question that is a two. Is it four? Is it two. But then two other kind of arms that are broken off of it. It’s a it is a tricky question because you’re embedded inside like quick. Yes. You know, imagine yourself in a random house. What color is the paint on the outside of your house?
Pamela Gay [00:04:40] It’s a challenge. Is a challenge.
Fraser Cain [00:04:42] Yeah, yeah. Maybe you’ll see it in reflected windows of cars as they drive by.
Pamela Gay [00:04:48] And. And what makes the challenge all the more fun is we have this Andromeda galaxy looming so very close. And at first glance, it seems to be so much bigger than we are. And yet every time we revise our mass estimates, it seems that our galaxy and Andromeda get closer and closer in size. And so it just turns out, trying to understand things that take more than one field of view of a telescope to look at is really hard. Really hard.
Fraser Cain [00:05:21] Yeah, I love those images of what Andromeda would look like if you if it was bright like before and you could see it, it is the size of what is it like nine full moons in the sky? It’s a tick.
Pamela Gay [00:05:34] Yeah. Yeah. And. And then there’s also the challenge of the size of galaxies varies depending on what color of light you’re looking in. And this has been one of the challenges with classifying galaxies, especially spiral galaxies. So the the old school still taught tried and true way of classifying spiral galaxies. Is the Hubble tuning fork diagram. And in this diagram you have ellipticals of varying, roundness to flatness that eventually become what’s called a lenticular galaxy, where you have a nucleus in the center. And then just like a disk of no structure around it, and then it forks. Thus the tuning fork part of the analogy and the arms on on the galaxies for the spirals and the barred spirals just get more and more unwound. But it turns out if you look at galaxies in different colors of light, you’re able to see their arms in different degrees. And so when it comes to trying to figure out how do we write software to classify galaxies, how do we get human beings to classify galaxies? It is a glorious disaster.
Fraser Cain [00:06:59] Right? Right. And I mean, it’s just it’s a mess because galaxies are weird. Yeah. Yeah. It’s not. It’s like humans. It’s the galaxies problem.
Pamela Gay [00:07:10] Go.
Fraser Cain [00:07:10] Galaxies go. Right? Yeah. It keeps keeping weird galaxies. Yeah. So then then how do they form? I mean, we look at these. I mean, there’s some beautiful examples. The whirlpool galaxy, the Pinwheel Galaxy, their nice face on spiral galaxies where we look just right down on to them, as well as ones that are farther away, that are less famous, that are equally as beautiful and indistinct. How do we get this, this, you know, weird shape and some of the structures that we see.
Pamela Gay [00:07:38] So how exactly you go from either blob of mass to spiral galaxy or a whole bunch of dwarf galaxies merging together, which is how these probably formed. But the universe likes to have exceptions to every rule, and I’m just gonna throw that out there. There are always exceptions. Yeah. It looks like we get spiral galaxies through the merger, with the correct angular momentum coming together to set things in a nice, coherent spiral. Then it gets tricky. Tricky, though, because spirals come in different varieties, separate from just how much of their arms splayed out. We have what are called flocculant spiral galaxies, which are spiral galaxies. When you look at them, you see there is what appears to be feathers, flock, flocculant of of spirally bits all throughout them. But there isn’t a clearly defined pair or multitude of arms. It’s just like arm bits all the way down. Then you have galaxies usually that have a companion. We think that it’s the gravitational interactions that drive the, the, spiral density waves that create these grand design spirals, which have two arms, only two arms perfectly formed.
Fraser Cain [00:09:08] And the number shall be two.
Pamela Gay [00:09:09] And the number shall be two, and.
Fraser Cain [00:09:11] Is the arms. Yes.
Pamela Gay [00:09:13] And, and and so going between these extremes is every possible version of massy and glorious. And then we see some spiral galaxies have, rings in their centers, have bars in their centers. And again, this is all driven, we think, from the gravity of companions. And then we have things like the see for 1 in 2 galaxies that have active galactic nuclei that are shooting out jets of radio waves. Spirals are just out there trying to show off. They are the drama queens. They’re the pageant queens.
Fraser Cain [00:09:59] You know, the peacocks galaxy world. Yeah. So this this shape, I mean, it really looks like someone is winding up a bunch of stars from the middle, and you get these spiral arms that form. What? What are the spiral arms?
Pamela Gay [00:10:19] They they are actually just places where material lingers as it goes on its orbit around and around the galaxy. It’s not that galaxies have solid disk rotation where those arms are intact, and the whole thing is bulk rotating like a pinwheel. That is not happening. I just want that very clear. Yeah, yeah. The structure might look like a pinwheel. It is not rotating like a pinwheel. So what’s happening is as material goes around and around the core, there are regions that have higher density. The regions that have higher density accelerate material towards them. So it gets there faster and then holds on to it. So it slows down as it exits. So the amount of time that material stays in the arms is increased compared to the amount of time that it spends on the other parts of its orbit. So you can have material zoom into. I don’t know why I said that like that. You can have material that zooms into a galaxy’s arm, passes through ever so slowly interacting a lot. Star formation gets triggered in arms and then passes out the other side until it gets to the next arm. Rinse and repeat.
Fraser Cain [00:11:41] Yeah. So like analogy that I love to use. Like, imagine you’re in a balloon above the Super Bowl and you’re looking down and the wave is happening. I don’t if do the wave at the Super Bowl. But imagine the wave is happening is you got human beings standing up, shaking their banners, cheering, and then sitting back down again, and you’re seeing this wave propagate through the entire arena. And from your blimp view, it looks like something is turning inside the stadium. But it is not what’s turning. It is the people standing up and sitting back down creating this illusion. And that’s the same thing as what’s happening with the spiral galaxy. Now the whole galaxy can be spinning. That’s a separate thing. But those spiral arms that you’re seeing are these density waves that are just rotating through as all of the stars are doing the wave and they take their time, they have their turn? Yeah. In the in in the arms. And then times when they’re not in the arms.
Pamela Gay [00:12:44] And to be clear, the majority of material in a spiral galaxy, not all. There’s always exceptions. That’s just going to keep coming up. The majority of material in a spiral galaxy will be orbiting all in one direction, like cars on a racetrack should, in theory, all be going in the same direction. And and what we’re seeing is all these things that are going more or less in the same direction are just lingering longer, where there’s a higher amount of mass to pull them in and hold on to them as they try to continue their orbit.
Fraser Cain [00:13:16] But we clearly see these star forming regions in the spiral arms of these galaxies. So what’s that about?
Pamela Gay [00:13:21] So if you think about it, star formation gets triggered through interactions, through shocks, through something taking a nice stable cloud of gas that is supported through the balance of gravity inwards and thermal pressure outwards. It doesn’t take a lot to knock that kind of a cloud out of equilibrium. So as these nice, friendly clouds enter the region of crowding, the probability that something they got there before them is gonna have a supernova go off, the probability that a couple of these clouds are going to interact with each other and knock each other out of equilibrium is a whole lot higher than when that cloud is all by itself in the space between arms. So when these clouds get to the high density region of the arm, they tend to get knocked around. And that knocks them out of that very careful thermo gas dynamics versus gravity balancing act. And you get star formation right.
Fraser Cain [00:14:23] So parts of the cloud are. Hold in, and then you get the densities that can begin and trigger this star formation.
Pamela Gay [00:14:31] Or it could. It could literally just be the shockwave from the supernova hit it to these clouds. And there’s a lot more supernova going off in the arms where you have a lot more star formation, and supernovae go off when you have star formation, and those first giant stars die.
Fraser Cain [00:14:48] Right, right. It’s this cycle that just gets rolling. It’s it’s crazy. Like I just sort of imagine this wave sweeping past. And as the wave is sweeping past through space, you’re getting clouds of stars start to form in this and then supernova are going off in this triggers more star formation. And then the wave passes and the fuel is depleted and you have less stars in that region. But now the next region gets filled with stars. It’s a it’s a very, I don’t know, very evocative concept to think about.
Pamela Gay [00:15:22] A better analogy might be a traffic jam. I don’t know if you’ve ever been like driving along on a road trip, full tilt buggy, and all of the sudden, three miles ahead, there is an accident on the complete other side of the highway. There’s no reason for your side of the highway to slow down. Yeah, but it turns out because human beings are human beings, they will race forward. And end up piling up. And then when they get close to that, that accidents are like must look, must look.
Fraser Cain [00:15:57] Must the what is it? How many.
Pamela Gay [00:15:59] Feet.
Fraser Cain [00:16:00] Yeah.
Pamela Gay [00:16:01] And so you end up with this, this compression wave triggered by looky loos. And that causes a compression of cars in that one place. Well, here it’s the gravitational wave of looking at the car accident that’s causing the compression and the lingering in the galaxy. It’s the gravitational pull of all the cool stuff going on that has mass and is holding you in place.
Fraser Cain [00:16:31] So once again, g t has joined in the hunt for galaxies. And because these things are fairly large and fairly bright, it’s seeing spiral galaxies early on in the universe. Yeah. So give me give me some surprising discoveries about spiral galaxies thanks to J team.
Pamela Gay [00:16:51] So so we thought that they would come very slowly in the being. It would take billion, couple billion years for them to exist, built up through the slow aggregation of smaller systems into larger systems. And it turns out something happened. We we don’t know exactly what happened. J t still looking and hundreds of billions of years, not a billion years, hundreds of millions of years. We’re already starting to see spiral structure. It’s not perfect, at least not what we can see through j w s t which admittedly isn’t that many pixels across, but still, it’s enough that we can see the spiral structure. Wow. And and so it turns out that somehow these things are forming faster and earlier than we thought through means that are still being defined. And there’s so much to figure out. Like if if you look at the velocity curve of a dwarf irregular galaxy, they have the same velocity curve structure as a spiral galaxy. So these dwarf irregulars that look like dead bugs on the sky have stars that are mostly going around and around in one direction in a known way related to dark matter. And then we see spiral galaxies. And so how are these things merging to get us bigger systems? Are they forming just big and spiral? We don’t know. We’re figuring it out. It’s a really cool time to realize everything we knew was wrong. And we get to start over and try. Right?
Fraser Cain [00:18:28] Right. And the other thing that this is fairly recent news, I don’t know if you have been following the story, but they’ve found that the galaxies have bars as well early on.
Pamela Gay [00:18:39] And that implies companions.
Fraser Cain [00:18:41] Right? Right. Which was what you were talking about earlier, that there’s some kind of interaction between the galaxy and its companions, leading to this bar forming in the middle. What is this bar?
Pamela Gay [00:18:53] There are so many different papers that don’t say the same thing. So what it is. For reasons that have many explanations, and I am not going to make a personal opinion right now because someone will send me a nasty letter, right? There are galaxies, including our own, that have a companion and have a structure in the center that is linear and radiating out from the black hole, and then these spiral structures appear to spiral off of the ends of this bar.
Fraser Cain [00:19:26] Right.
Pamela Gay [00:19:27] That companion is the consistent part, exactly how the barred structure forms. There’s lots of theories. I’m just going to leave it there and write. Deal with the letters in my inbox.
Fraser Cain [00:19:41] Yeah. So it’s a couple of things. One is that, you know, about two thirds of galaxies have bars, and they appear to come and go over time.
Pamela Gay [00:19:50] Yes.
Fraser Cain [00:19:51] Yeah.
Pamela Gay [00:19:52] So it’s a transient phase, which is consistent with the companion galaxies coming and going, changing in distance, getting consumed actively.
Fraser Cain [00:20:01] Yeah, yeah. And so you can get some event that causes the bar to buckle to, to collapse in on itself and disappear again. And then other times the bar will start to spread out and stretch out, and the arms end up at the end of the, of the bar. So it’s a weird thing. Spirals have them. Yeah. And and yet, as you know, I mentioned this, that the now there’s observations that they’re seeing these spiral bars in galaxies that are under a billion years old, like, you should not have seen these mature structures in galaxies. And yet there they are. So once again, the universe is speed running, its large scale structures, its more mature structures. And this is a surprise.
Pamela Gay [00:20:55] And what I’m really loving is we already knew quasars, active galaxies were much more common in the early universe. We haven’t been able to really make out consistently the structure around them. I studies that you slowed in digital Sky survey to do extremely statistically rigorous looks. Found that there were the same fraction of mergers among quasars as non quasars. So there’s just something special in the systems with quasars that causes them. But there’s something of the early universe. There was more gas than there was more material than. And and so we have all of these weird things that were high energy events creating amazing forces. There was more stuff around to do the mergers that hadn’t formed large galaxies yet. It was basically the pottery waiting to be formed.
Fraser Cain [00:21:51] Right. We talked a lot about dark matter in the last episode, and I think we should definitely talk about dark matter as it relates to a spiral galaxy as well. To what role does dark matter play in the behavior of the galaxy?
Pamela Gay [00:22:06] It changes how they rotate or it changes. I guess a better way to put it, how the stars at a variety of different distances orbit around the galaxy. This was one of the things discovered by Vera Rubin. And what’s was remarkable here is Vera Rubin was trying very hard to do non-confrontational research. Right. She moved away from other topics because she was like, nope, don’t want to deal with the the politics just when you do science. Yeah. And she quite accidentally discovered that as you move out from the core of a galaxy and you get more and more material inside your orbit, it was expected that things would be, going at lower and lower orbital velocities.
Fraser Cain [00:22:54] Like the solar system.
Pamela Gay [00:22:56] Like the solar system. Right. And instead what happens is it just flattens off. This flattens off. Right? So the outer parts of galaxies out to the greatest distances we can see beyond a certain point, everything just keeps rotating at the same rate. Right. And this is because the distribution of dark matter is such that it’s counterbalancing what we see with the baryonic luminous matter and changing the rotation curves. And so we’re essentially trying to map out the distribution of material we can’t otherwise see by looking at the rates at which stars, globular clusters, clouds of neutral gas are going round and around our Milky Way. And poor Vera Rubin, who was trying to do non-confrontational research, discovered this, ended up having to spend about a decade proving that she was right. Along the way, she demonstrated that work done in the 30s by, Fritz Zwicky on, galaxy clusters was the exact same effect. And then the poor woman never got the Nobel Prize for everything that she went through. She got many awards, but it is generally seen as a great oversight that she didn’t get the Nobel Prize for what she did.
Fraser Cain [00:24:11] And I want to I want to sort of just reiterate this, this discovery because I think it it is it is so foundational.
Pamela Gay [00:24:18] And yeah.
Fraser Cain [00:24:19] You can’t hear this and roll your eyes at dark matter, right? Which is what I see a lot of in the comments. And so if you’re like, you know, astronomers just make up this thing called dark matter to blah, blah, blah. You know what? No, no, no absolutely not. That is incorrect. And let me let me sort of give you this insight, right. You measure like here in the solar system, the Earth is going at 30km per second around the sun. Neptune is going five kilometers per second around the sun. There is this drop off in the velocities of the planets as you get farther from the sun. It is this steady line going downward that measures the velocities. You look at a galaxy. Yeah, close to the center of the galaxy. The the rotation rate is increasing. And then you hit this point where you then as you measure outward, it’s like, what is it, 250km per second and little farther away. It’s hundred and 50km per second, a little farther away, you know, still 50. It’s still the same. Or the two one. I forget the exact numbers 220 or 250, whatever. And it just it remains the same all the way out to the outskirts of the galaxy. And so the galaxy is not a little solar system. It is something else. Yeah. And you cannot you just can’t get that rotation curve without ten times the mass in the galaxy that if that if there was, you know, you could see. Ten times the mass in black holes all around the galaxy, and they were visible somehow. Then that would explain it.
Pamela Gay [00:25:51] Yeah, it’s it’s the equivalent amount of matter of taking one Acme brick per solar system sized volume in the outer galaxy. So you can imagine just all these Acme bricks floating around. And the Matcha project has gone looking for the the universal version, which is neutron stars, stellar mass black holes, white dwarfs and hasn’t found them.
Fraser Cain [00:26:17] Yeah. And so you can take a person who like doesn’t who rolls their eyes at this and you say, okay, fine. So how how does this work? How do you get the the stars not slowing down in their orbital velocity like you would see in a solar system? Right. And then the person has to say, oh, I don’t know. Right. Done. You you now are part of the dark matter belief system, right? You like weird observation. Why is this happening? I don’t know, good enough. Join the club. Here’s your membership card. You’re now one of us. And so, yeah, it’s called dark matter. But. But who knows what it could be. As you said, particles. It could be black holes. And it could be that we don’t understand gravity at the longest scale. Doesn’t matter. It’s still dark matter.
Pamela Gay [00:27:06] And it can be a combination. I just want to make that clear.
Fraser Cain [00:27:10] It is almost certainly a combination of all of them. And and done. You are like you are part of the confusion that nobody knows what this thing is. And yet you can people can make these observations with relatively small telescopes. If your Rubin did it in the, you know, almost a hundred years ago. And yet here we are still arguing about what it is.
Pamela Gay [00:27:37] And little tiny radio telescopes that universities have allow us to go even further out in the galaxy than what your Rubin initially did with optical light, because we can start seeing the neutral gas that is the furthest stuff out in our galaxy. And so, yeah, grab yourself a small optical telescope and a small radio telescope and you’re done. You can prove there has to be something invisible out there. You’re affecting the rotation curve.
Fraser Cain [00:28:06] And there’s one last piece of spiral galaxy that I think is really important, which is the monster at the heart of them.
Pamela Gay [00:28:13] And and as recently as the 1990s, people were drying on overhead sheets, little tiny monsters, usually with antennae and giant mouths like vomiting jets out of the cause of spiral galaxies. So much has been lost now that professors aren’t hand drawing on overhead sheets. I it’s truly a lost art, and we are suffering so many fewer cartoons as a result of it. Right. So yeah, spiral galaxies. There is a relationship. And this works for ellipticals as well. There’s a relationship between the size of the bulge and the size of the, supermassive black hole in the center. There are some galaxies, like less than ten last I looked, that looked like quite maybe. Possibly it could be they don’t actually have a supermassive black hole and they don’t have a bulge, but still working on it. Yeah.
Fraser Cain [00:29:18] Millions do. Ten don’t.
Pamela Gay [00:29:21] Right. Exactly. Yeah. And and so when you see these systems with large bulges in the core with lots of high velocity stars in those bulges, they’re going to have the big supermassive black holes, smaller bulge, lower motions, smaller supermassive black hole. And yeah. And what’s neat is, depending on the angle that we’re able to look in on a supermassive black hole that’s feeding, we get all sorts of different cool effects. So if you have a system that’s that’s edge on and has a supermassive black hole in the center, it’s called a siefert two. They’re kind of boring. They don’t have very exciting lines that do very much, but they are active and they show up in the radio in new and interesting ways. Now tilt that towards us and you start to get what’s called a Seyfert one, tilt it straight towards us and give it a really powerful jet. And you start to get what’s called a blazer. And here, because of the the distance that it that the time that it takes light from the far jet to get to us and the time that it takes for light from the near jet to get to us, it gives the perspective of faster than light motion between the two ends of the jet. So there’s this really cool physics.
Fraser Cain [00:30:40] Yeah, that’s really awesome. All right, well, I think we can cover two spiral galaxies. And so next week, we pick up the story with the giant elliptical galaxies. Thanks, Pamela.
Pamela Gay [00:30:54] Thank you, Fraser, and thank you to all the folks out there that support us through Patreon. We we really rely on you so very much. Beth, pulled together pretty. In these three episodes for us on a dime. When? When I told her yesterday. Surprise. Yeah, I guess what. And and Rich is out there doing all of the editing, hiding so many blunders. We thank you, Rich. Ali’s out there helping with our YouTube channel. It takes a team to make this happen. This week, I want to thank Kimberly Kimberly Wright. Jesus. Trina, Jeff Wilson, Tim Gerrish, Greg wilde, John Drake, Robert Cordova, Paul de Disney, Veronica cure, Michelle Cullin, Philip Walker, Benjamin Davies, Dwight. Ilke, Brian. Kilby. Daniel. Loosely, Sabra. Lark, Sydney. Walker, David. Borghetti, evil. Melky, Justin. Ace, Maxime. Leavitt, Hal McKinney. Bebop. Apocalypse. I love that one. Daniel Phillips on Bruno. Let’s Ruben McCarthy, Larry Dart’s Bob, Zach, ski time Lord, I row Frank Stewart and Jason could Dorcas folks who donated $10. We are grateful and this means I mispronounce your names. I am sorry you won.
Fraser Cain [00:32:18] Thanks everyone, and we’ll see you next week.
Pamela Gay [00:32:20] Goodbye. Astronomy cast is a joint product of the Universe Today and the Planetary Science Institute. Astronomy cast is released under a Creative Commons Attribution license. So love it, share it, and remix it, but please credit it to our hosts, Fraser Cain and Doctor Pamela Gay. You can get more information on today’s show topic on our website. Astronomy. Cars.com. This episode was brought to you. Thanks to our generous patrons on Patreon. If you want to help keep the show going, please consider joining our community at Patreon.com Slash Astronomy Cast. Not only do you help us pay our producers a fair wage, you will also get special access to content right in your inbox and invites to online events. We are so grateful to all of you who have joined our Patreon community already. Anyways, keep looking up. This has been Astronomy Cast.
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After the cosmic microwave background radiation was released, the Universe returned to darkness, cloaked in this clouds of primordial hydrogen and helium. Gravity pulled these vast clouds into the first stars, and then the first galaxies. This is Cosmic Dawn, and JWST will help us probe this mysterious time.
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Astronomers first noticed the strange behaviors of rotating galaxies almost 100 years ago, suggesting there’s an invisible dark matter hold them together with gravity. Or maybe we just don’t understand how gravity works at the largest scales. Observations are much better now, and astronomers have found examples of galaxies that almost entirely made of dark matter. Does this tell us anything?
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In 2017, astronomers detected the gravitational waves and electromagnetic radiation from colliding neutron stars. This had been long theorized as one of the causes of a certain type of gamma-ray burst. By studying the event and its afterglow, astronomers have learned a tremendous amount about the formation of the heaviest elements in the Universe.
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Last week we talked about rogue stars. This week we’re going to take things up a notch and talk about an even more extreme event. Rogue black holes. Astronomers recently discovered a supermassive black hole on an escape trajectory, leaving newly forming stars in its wake. It’s wonderful, terrible, nightmare fuel.
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Most stars in the Milky Way are trapped in here with us, doomed to orbit around and around and around. But a few have found a way out, an escape into the freedom of intergalactic space. How do stars reach escape velocity, never to return?
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Okay sci-fi writers, today we’re going to give you a guided tour of building planets. How they form, how they grow, and how things can go horribly horribly wrong.
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Whenever astronomers discover something surprising, the answer often turns out to be dust. Dust obscuring our view, dust changing the polarity, dust warming things up, dust cooling things down. It’s always dust. Until it isn’t.
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We’ve spent a lot of time gushing about Saturn’s rings, but there are other places with ring systems. And not just Jupiter and the ice giants, but asteroids, dwarf planets, centaurs and even exoplanets. Today we’ll gush about them.
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Ice is ice, right? You know, what you get when water freezes. Well, maybe here on Earth. But across the Universe, water can be squeezed together at different temperatures and pressures, leading to very different structures. Today we’ll talk about the different forms that ice can take.
This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/ASTRONOMY and get on your way to being your best self.
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Show NotesCrystallinity of the Ice (UCLA)
How to Make Clear Ice Cubes for Your Cocktails (Liquor.com)
You’re Doing It Wrong: The Guide to Making Perfect Pasta (Smithsonian Magazine)
Iceland Has Got a sparkling Ice Diamond Beach on Breiðamerkursandu (Guide to Iceland)
Centaurs (Swinburne University)
Scientists discover a new type of amorphous ice (Cosmos Magazine)
Scientists created a weird new type of ice that is almost exactly as dense as water (Live Science)
Ganymede (NASA)
Europa (NASA)
Enceladus (NASA)
Kuiper Belt Objects (Swinburne University)
An orbital dance may help preserve oceans on icy worlds (Phys.org)
Why do astronomers call Uranus and Neptune ice giants? (Astronomy)
Europa’s heaving ice might make more heat than scientists thought (Brown University)
What color is an iceberg? (NOAA)
Cat’s Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut Jr. (Goodreads)
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The asteroid apocalypse is one of those existential crises that keep astronomers up at night. But the DART mission showed us that we can push an asteroid off its trajectory if we have enough warning. Today we’ll talk about how humanity is building early warning systems to give us time to respond to a dangerous asteroid.
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If you’re in dark skies and look up, you’re certain to see a satellite. Lots of them. But how can you know which one you’re seeing, and how can you improve your chances of a sighting? Today we’ll talk about how to see satellites, or avoid seeing them.
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We’ve talked about the rising problem of space junk. Okay, we know it’s an issue. So what can be done about it? Today we’ll talk about ideas to remove space junk, making sure space is open to use for the centuries to come.
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Last week we talked about the laws that govern space exploration. This week the rubber hits the road. What are the consequences for actually breaking these rules? Are they really going to stop anyone?
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The Universe was inaccessible for most of human history, but the first tentative steps to space in the 20th century made humanity realize that science fiction was becoming science reality. New rules would have to be written to govern how we used this limitless expanse. Today we’ll talk about the Outer Space Treaty of 1967.
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It’s been over 20 years since astronomers first discovered that the expansion of the Universe is accelerating thanks to dark energy. And in these decades, astronomers still don’t have much evidence for what could be causing the increased expansion rate. Maybe there’s something else going on to explain it.
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Astronomers have made extremely accurate measurements of the expansion rate of the Universe and come up with different results. And the error bars for the observations don’t overlap, so there’s something strange going on. What’s the answer and how can the Crisis in Cosmology be resolved?
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Astronomers came together in January to present their newest research, and not surprisingly, the Winter AAS meeting was heavy on news from JWST. What were some of the new results that were announced?
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Well, we did it. We made it to episode 666, an auspicious number to be sure. What can we do to celebrate this accomplishment? An episode all about things in the Universe that have been named after mythological people and places in the underworld?
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The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation tells us so much about the Universe. After that era, the Universe went dark. Then, as gas pulled together into the first stars and eventually galaxies, light returned, beginning the Age of Reionization.
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Show Notes241st AAS Meeting (AAS)
JWST (NASA)
Hubble Space Telescope
What is the Cosmic Microwave Background? (Universe Today)
Epoch of Reionisation (MWA Telescope)
What Is the Big Bang? (NASA Space Place)
What are photons? (Live Science)
How the Cosmic Dark Ages Snuffed Out All Light (Quanta Magazine)
Energy Levels of Electrons (SDSS)
Ionization (Energy Education)
Population III stars: The Universe’s ultimate reclusive pop stars (KIPAC)
Dwarf Galaxy (ESA/Hubble)
The Pillars of Creation (NASA)
Spitzer Space Telescope views cosmic bubbles in infrared (BBC Sky at Night)
Messier 42 (The Orion Nebula) (NASA)
Quasar (ESA/Hubble)
What is ‘red shift’? (ESA)
What is Gravitational Lensing? (CFHTLens)
Quasars, the Lyman Alpha Forest, and the Reionization of the Universe (Astrobites)
Lyman-alpha_line (ChemEurope)
Astrophysical Classics: Neutral Hydrogen in the Universe, Part 2 (Astrobites)
Peter Gunn (TV Series 1958–1961) (IMdB)
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The Sun is a third-generation star, polluted with the metals from long-dead stars. Astronomers have also discovered second-generation stars, with very low metallicity. But theories suggest there must be a first generation, with stars made from only pure hydrogen and helium. Can we ever find them?
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Show NotesThis episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/ASTRONOMY and get on your way to being your best self.
NASA Artemis (NASA)
JWST (NASA)
DART (JHUAPL)
Chinese space station epitome of aerospace workers’ wisdom: designer (CGTN)
InSight Mission – NASA’s InSight Mars Lander (NASA)
Overview | Sun (NASA)
Stars – Stellar Populations (Astronomy Online)
What is stellar magnitude? (EarthSky)
Population I (Swinburne University)
Population II (Swinburne University)
Population III (Swinburne University)
What is a globular cluster? (EarthSky)
Two planets around Kapteyn’s star: a cold and a temperate super-Earth orbiting the nearest halo red dwarf (MNRAS Letters)
Pair-Instability Supernovae: What might they look like? (Astrobites)
Gamma radiation (ARPANSA)
Hydrostatic Equilibrium (Swinburne University)
Positron (Swinburne University)
Potential First Traces of the Universe’s Earliest Stars (NOIRLab)
Quasar (Swinburne University)
Gravitational Lensing (Hubblesite)
PDF: First Stars and First Light: The Epoch of Reionization (NSF)
What is the Cosmic Microwave Background? (Universe Today)
New insight of AGC 198691 (Leoncino) galaxy with MEGARA at the GTC (MNRAS)
Elemental Abundances (Center for Astrophysics)
Hubble Space Telescope
American Astronomical Society
241st AAS Meeting (AAS)
Supermassive Black Hole (Swinburne University)
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We generally save our stargazing suggestions for the summer, when it’s warmer in the northern hemisphere. But you’re tough, you can handle a little cold. And it’s worth it because there are some wonderful things you can see in the night sky this time of year.
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Show NotesMars Mesmerizes at Opposition (Sky & Telescope)
The Mars Rovers (NASA)
Mission Juno (SwRI)
JunoCam : Processing (SwRI)
Rosalind Franklin: Europe’s delayed Mars rover to receive rescue package (BBC News)
Europe’s first Mars rover mission saved by major investment (Nature)
Mars-Moon Occultation 2022 Archives (Sky & Telescope)
Moon and Mars! Fav photos of December 7 (EarthSky)
Geminid meteor shower 2022 (In-the-sky.org)
Heavens-Above
International Space Station (NASA)
Starlink
Bolide (Swinburne University)
What Is an Aurora? (NASA)
Solar Cycle 25 Is Here. NASA, NOAA Scientists Explain What That Means (NASA)
Solar Cycle Progression (NOAA / NWS)
Sunspots and Solar Flares (NASA)
Citizen Scientists Help Discover A New Feature of STEVE (NASA)
SpaceWeather.com
Orion the Hunter, the world’s most recognizable constellation (EarthSky)
The Orion Nebula is a starry nursery (EarthSky)
Star Formation (Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian)
Andromeda galaxy: All you need to know (EarthSky)
Double Cluster in Perseus on October evenings (EarthSky)
Triangulum galaxy, the 2nd-closest spiral galaxy (EarthSky)
Pleiades: The Seven Sisters Star Cluster (NASA)
Hyades star cluster: face of the Bull (EarthSky)
Betelgeuse is Dimming . . . Why? (Sky & Telescope)
Image of Betelgeuse’s surface taken in March 2020 (ESA)
See all 5 bright planets in December 2022 (EarthSky)
Stargazing with Early Astronomer Galileo Galilei (Sky & Telescope)
Comet 2022 E3 now in morning skies, brightening (EarthSky)
Comet C/2022 L2 (ATLAS) (TheSkyLive)
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TranscriptTranscriptions provided by GMR Transcription Services
Fraser: AstronomyCast Episode 663, “The End-of-the-Year Events.” Welcome to AstronomyCast, your weekly facts-based journey through the cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. I’m Fraser Cain, publisher of Universe Today. With me, as always, is Dr. Pamela Gay, a senior scientist for the Planetary Science Institute and the director of CosmoQuest. Hey, Pamela, how are you doing?
Dr. Gay: I am doing well, how are you?
Fraser: Good, good. I could whine about weather, but I won’t.
Dr. Gay: Are you going to have a white Christmas?
Fraser: Probably, yeah. We’re gonna have a white December, just all the way through. Last year was bonkers. This year is shaping up to be just this side of weird, but now, I just feel like every year, the weather is just weird. That’s just the new normal.
Dr. Gay: I saw blue jays.
Fraser: You saw blue jays?
Dr. Gay: I saw blue jays. Blue jays mean winter, robins mean summer, so it’s going to be a cold one when the blue jays are here.
Fraser: Right. Now, we generally save our stargazing selections for the summer, when it’s warmer in the Northern Hemisphere, but you’re tough, you can handle a little cold, and it’s worth it because there are some wonderful things you can see in the night sky this time of year. Have we ever done this? I was sort of thinking about this. I was writing my introduction, I’m like, yeah, every year, every couple of years, our last episode before we go on hiatus, we give you a bunch of recommendations to see over the summer, and we drag out all the common things, but we don’t do one this time of year, and that’s crazy because –
Dr. Gay: Yes!
Fraser: – there’s a ton of really interesting things, especially this year –
Dr. Gay: Yes.
Fraser: – that we should highlight, and so, you know what? I think our listeners are tough. They can handle it. They can handle some cold outside weather when they just take some extra hot chocolate and just warm with layers –
Dr. Gay: Or extreme heat, if they’re in Australia.
Fraser: Right, exactly. Are we avoiding the extreme heat? It’s milder, cooler, and nicer in July in Australia as well. So, what interesting event is coming up – let’s talk about some transitory events, some things that are brand-new and fresh, and then maybe we can shift over to some stuff that you can expect to see every year around this time. So, what is interesting that’s gonna be happening this winter?
Dr. Gay: Well, right now, we have Mars at opposition, which means that Mars is rising a little bit after sunset, the nights are quite long, so Mars is rising a little bit after sunset, it’s setting a little bit before sunrise, and it’s pretty much at its highest point in the sky at the middle of the night, which, time zone dependent, may or may not be midnight where you are, but this means that that giant red dot in the sky could be Antares, could be Betelgeuse, or could be Mars.
Fraser: If you go outside right now and you live in very light-polluted skies, you will probably see two stars, Jupiter and Mars, right? Neither of them are stars, but they are the two brightest objects in the sky right now, after the Moon, and it’s a good way to know if you can see clear sky and you can see these two objects – yeah, you’re looking at Jupiter and Mars. It’s amazing.
Dr. Gay: Yes. And, it’s fun to be able to say to people, “Hey, did you know there’s a world entirely occupied by a troop of robots,” make it sound as spectacular as possible, “The Cylons have arrived,” and it’s just Mars, and you can then continue the story, pointing out at Jupiter and saying, “Hey, there’s this little mission called Juno going around Jupiter, and they post all their information online, so when we go in to warm up, we can download some data and make beautiful images using a camera that NASA purchased.”
Fraser: So, why is Mars opposition so important? What does it mean?
Dr. Gay: Mars opposition means that it is a reasonably good time to launch a spacecraft, and it also means that it’s easy to monitor it. So, if you want to do something where you want quick turnaround time between you and your favorite robot, you aim to have that thing occur during opposition, and if you are aiming to launch a mission toward the Red Planet, you aim to launch it about now.
Fraser: And this is something that is transitory – Mars opposition happens at different times of the year – and when you imagine it in your mind, just imagine you’ve got the Sun, and then you’ve got the Earth, and then you’ve got Mars all lined up.
Dr. Gay: Yes.
Fraser: That’s opposition. And so, Mars is opposite to the Sun.
Dr. Gay: And you don’t want to launch precisely at opposition. The Rosalind Franklin rover missed its launch window, which was a little bit earlier in the year, but when you see Mars at opposition, it usually means, hey, a launch window may have just gone by.
Fraser: Yeah. And typically, a fleet of spacecraft launch every Mars opposition year, but not this year. I don’t think anything’s gone to Mars this year.
Dr. Gay: No.
Fraser: Rosalind Franklin was supposed to, but, of course, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine canceled that because they were going to be providing the launching. I don’t think there’s anything left. China hasn’t got one, UAE – I don’t think anybody’s launching this year.
Dr. Gay: And not every opposition is made equal, not every launch window is made equal, so, by definition, you will end up with an opposition every single Earth year, but you don’t get an ideal launch window every single year.
Fraser: And when we’re recording this, Mars is going to be passing behind the Moon. You’re going to get an occultation, but that’s going to be happening tonight –
Dr. Gay: Yes, go look for images!
Fraser: Yeah, go look for pictures and videos from people who took it, because it happened, but I’ve got cloudy skies, so I won’t be able to see it tonight –
Dr. Gay: I have clouds.
Fraser: – but I’ll have to live vicariously through everybody who took pictures and took video of it. So, that’s Mars. What else is happening in the sky?
Dr. Gay: So, we have Mars, we have Jupiter, we have – the Geminid meteor shower is going to be peaking the week of December 12th, and all because it’s peaking on its normal December teen date, depending on which year you’re listening to this, that doesn’t mean that if you missed the peak night, you shouldn’t go looking for meteorites anyways. The radiant is coming out of the constellation of Gemini, so you’ll see the meteors appear to radiate out in straight lines away from that constellation statistically more often. You’re going to see shooting stars all over the sky, and you’re also going to see shooting satellites, except they’re on known orbits, and it’s much less random.
So, don’t be afraid to go check out Heavens Above and find out is there going to be an International Space Station pass tonight, is one of the brand-new, super bright satellite communication satellites going over tonight, is there a Starlink train tonight. All of these things are a good excuse to get your family outside and talking about something different than what the dog just did, I don’t know.
Fraser: Yeah, the Geminid meteor shower is the best – typically, it is the most reliable high-volume meteor shower every year. You typically can get upwards of a hundred meteors per hour, so, a little more than one a minute when you’re watching the sky, which is better than the Perseids. We always rave about the Perseids, but the Geminids are better than the Perseids.
Dr. Gay: Perseids get more bolides.
Fraser: Right. There are definitely some – there’s a few weird ones that can give you more bolides, but the Geminids, for raw meteor power, you can’t go wrong. It’s just for me, and probably for you, it’s cold, so you have to pace yourself when you’re outside in that kind of weather, but if you want guaranteed meteor sightings, the Geminid meteor. Unfortunately, we’re not going to have the best Moon this year for the Geminids.
Dr. Gay: No. If you go out closer to Christmas than to that December…roughly 13th peak, you’re going to have the Moon later and later in the evening and a smaller and smaller fraction of it, so that is at least working in your favor, but yeah, you want as little Moon as possible when you’re looking for shooting stars. And, aurorae – that’s something else you can pay attention to this year, or any year, for that matter.
Fraser: All right, let’s talk about auroras then, because this is maybe not going to be the best year, but we’re on our way to better and better years. Why is that?
Dr. Gay: So, we are headed towards solar maximum. In just a few years, our sun’s north and south magnetic poles are going to work on flipping themselves, and, in the process, create a maximum number of sunspots on the surface of the sun that we can observe during the day, and periodically, the loops of magnetic field lines that you end up spiraling over the surface of the planet can snap and rearrange themselves and, in the process, send a whole bunch of charged particles our direction, and when those charge particles interact with our planet’s magnetic field, they streak down in collections, and as they interact with particles in the atmosphere, we will see amazing green and red streaks, a cool additional friend called STEVE that looks like a picket fence in the sky – it’s just an absolutely beautiful thing.
It tends to be maximum in likelihood that you’re going to see an awesome show in the sky closer to the equinoxes, but winter lights are long, winter nights can be dark, and check out SpaceWeather.com to find out how to sign up for alerts and see what auroral activity is predicted for your area of the planet.
Fraser: And I go on and on about this, but I really think it’s important. For a lot of people who are listening to this, they’ve never seen an aurora in their life, and you think that you never can, that you’ve gotta go to Iceland or Alaska, but you actually don’t. As long as you live in the northern part of the United States, in the middle of Europe, Japan, in southern Australia and New Zealand, the southern part of South America, you can see an aurora. You just need to be more organized. If you live in Iceland, you walk outside to walk your dog, and you look up, and whoa, what a surprise, another aurora blowing your mind, but for the rest of us –
Dr. Gay: New Hampshire.
Fraser: Yeah, the rest of us, who live further away from the poles, you just have to be organized about this. So, what I recommend – and I recommend this every year – is find an aurora alert app, and I apologize, I can’t give you a specific recommendation because these things change all the time.
Sometimes they’re great, and then they go offline, and so, just do a search in the app store for “aurora alert app,” look for websites – just google it, you can find it – and it will tell you when the space weather strength is growing to the point that you could have auroras in your area, and you need to learn what that’s gonna be. For me, I need a certain strength – I think it’s, like, six, five, and I’ll be able to see auroras – and you also wanna find a place that gives you a nice view to the north or, if you live in the Southern Hemisphere, to the south.
So, for me, for example, I’ve got a beach that is here on Vancouver Island that I can stand on and that I can watch straight to the north. I look all the way across this giant gap in the water, and then there’s mountains to the north, and so, I’ve got a really nice view to the horizon, it’s very dark skies, the city lights are behind me.
And every time the aurora alert goes off, we pack up all our stuff, and we go down to the beach, and we wait, and sometimes you just take some pictures and you maybe can see a glow off on the horizon, and other times, the sky explodes with aurora activity, and yet, I’ve never just gone outside, looked up while I’m walking the dog, and thought, “Wow, aurora!” Each one has required preparation, but you miss 100% of the auroras that you don’t try to go see.
So, this is your year, and as we approach the solar maximum, they’re just gonna get stronger and better, and you’re gonna have better and better chances to see this. So, please, I beg you, install an aurora alert app, get to know what strong space weather events look like in your area, plan out a place that you can try to view them, and when one of these storms is building, go to your dark sky spot and see what you can see. Take a camera, do some long exposures, and I’ll bet you’ll even get them. So, good luck. I believe in you.
Dr. Gay: And this is gonna sound so lame, but my recommendation is if you have a friend with a farmhouse surrounded by pasture that has an attic, figure out how to get the north-facing window open, because then you can keep your body inside and your camera pointed outside, and that is honestly one of my favorite ways to do star trail images, is just straight out an attic window.
Fraser: Awesome. All right, we’ve talked about Mars, we’ve talked about the meteor shower, we’ve talked about auroras. What else should people be looking for this winter?
Dr. Gay: So, one of the cool things that you can do in the December/January timeframe is go outside – and this is an early-in-the-evening thing – and find the constellation Orion. You don’t need someplace that is particularly dark. We can just make it out from Cambridge, Massachusetts, couldn’t make it out from downtown Boston, so it can just be that small of a variation.
Fraser: Orion? You can see Orion anywhere, pretty much.
Dr. Gay: From downtown under skyscrapers, not necessarily.
Fraser: Right, okay. What a nightmare.
Dr. Gay: But yeah, you can see it just about everywhere, but literally not in the financial district. That is my requirement. And, underneath that belt of Orion is the sword, and you probably won’t be able to make out the Orion Nebula if you’re in a bright place, but you can point out to people “That constellation you’re looking at – that entire region of the sky is actively forming stars,” and if you’re someplace darker, you’re like, “Okay, so, that smudge in the sword – that is a star-forming area that is in the process this very moment of creating new stars.”
Fraser: I love that process. Even if you don’t know your way around the night sky, if you’ve got a pair of binoculars, you can just look around the sky with your eyes, look for anything that’s like a little hazy, blobby, fuzzy bit in the sky, and then you point your binoculars at that thing, and it’s a thing! You can see the Andromeda Galaxy, you can see the double cluster in Perseus, you can see the Orion Nebula, you can see the Triangulum Galaxy.
There’s a ton of things that you can actually see that you don’t realize that these are objects in the night sky, and then you point your binoculars at them, and you’re like, “Oh yeah, there it is!” Even with regular binoculars, you look at the Orion Nebula, you totally see where it is.
Fraser: And what I love about that area of the sky is you then jump from the Orion Nebula to the Pleiades, which looks like someone dipped a cotton ball in white paint and then splooged it onto the sky, and now you’re seeing a system that just finished forming stars that is still blowing the gas and dust out of the star-forming region, and as you bump over to Taurus, which is right next to Orion, you now have the Hyades Cluster, and that’s an open cluster that is in the process of falling apart as the rotation of our galaxy causes some stars to lag behind and others to race ahead.
So, we have, in this area of the sky that you can block with your hands, a system that’s in the process of still forming, a system that’s getting rid of its last remnant gas and dust, and that system that’s falling apart, and there’s a story there where you can explain, “This is how astronomers understand how stars form and why the Sun is alone.”
Fraser: Yeah, I love that. These are baby, baby stars, everything’s shrouded in gas and dust, and stars are just going off supernova in this, and then, here’s an older one where the stars have mostly blown off the surrounding gas, and they’re starting to clear out their environment, and then, with Taurus, they’ve cleared out their environment, and now they’re drifting away from each other and will be lost in the chaos of the Milky Way.
Dr. Gay: And then, you can always just point out that someday, hopefully in the next 100,000 years or so, when humans are still hopefully around, Orion the Hunter will get a bloody red shoulder when Betelgeuse decides to explode.
Fraser: Right, right. And, even Betelgeuse – I think right now, it’s brighter than usual, the time that we’re recording this –
Dr. Gay: Yes.
Fraser: – but the variations on Betelgeuse are actually fairly visible, and you can use the other bright stars in Orion to give you a sense of whether it is brighter or dimmer than these other stars. So, back when Betelgeuse dimmed several years ago, it was clearly obvious. You walked outside, and you were like, “Weird, Betelgeuse is dim.”
And so, you can do this. You can actually just visually compare them and go, “Okay, Betelgeuse is a little brighter than Rigel or a little less bright than Rigel,” and just compare them, and – just walk outside and compare the stars, and after a while, you’ll build up a sense – you’re actually watching the variations on Betelgeuse, and those variations are coming from enormous sunspots that can cover a huge portion of the surface of the star, of burps of gas and dust that are being blobbed out into space and blocking our view to the star. You can make these observations for yourself. It’s amazing.
Dr. Gay: And this is a system where, when you go back inside to warm up again, we have actually imaged – in kind of low resolution, but we have imaged the surface of Betelgeuse with interferometers here on the surface of our planet, so this is our one chance to really make out what another star looks like in a similar way to how we look at how our own star, the Sun, looks like.
Fraser: Now, you mentioned briefly that Mars is in the sky, and I talked about how Jupiter is in the sky, but actually, all the planets are in the sky right now.
Dr. Gay: It’s true. Not all of them are easy to see.
Fraser: Right, especially if you don’t have a nice view to the horizon, but over December 2022, just in case you’re listening to this into the far, far future, it’s possible to see all of the visible planets at various times in the sky. So, you can see Mercury close to the horizon – I don’t know whether it’s after sunset or before sunrise –
Dr. Gay: It switches. Depending on when you listen, it will be different.
Fraser: It switches, yeah. You can see Venus, you can see Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, and they’re all visible in the sky right now.
Dr. Gay: And two super cool things to note is Venus has phases the same way the Moon has phases, and with a modest-sized telescope, you can start to see, oh, that’s a crescent Venus, that is a waxing gibbous Venus. It has all these phases. And then, the other thing that it’s fun to surprise people with, but you have to plan ahead because you’re not gonna randomly figure this out – you can see Neptune with a small telescope. Galileo saw Neptune, he just didn’t know he saw Neptune. It was in the field of view of Jupiter, and he sketched it out.
Fraser: That’s cool.
Dr. Gay: Yeah. You can see Uranus with a modest telescope.
Fraser: That’s amazing. So, were there any other events that you think people should be aware of this winter?
Dr. Gay: Those are the big ones that are easy to explain. There is a comet that has been spotted that is coming in, it’s slowly approaching roughly the northern celestial pole, Polaris, in the sky, it’s going to dive through our solar system, and it already has a little tiny tail and a bit of a coma, and so, there are hints that we’re going to have a good comet this year, hopefully.
Fraser: Perfect. Let’s hope so. This is it – 2023, this is it. This is a portent of a good year for astronomy. All right, thanks, Pam.
Dr. Gay: Thank you so much, Fraser, and thank you so much to all of our patrons out there. Without you, we would not have editors to go back and fix it when I inadvertently rename planets, and we otherwise just have barking dogs and things like that. Because of you, we are able to pay fair wages and provide insurance, where needed, to our staff.
And this week, I would like to thank Benjamin Mueller, Scott Briggs, Don Mundis, Dean McDaniel, Micheal Regan, Omar Del Rivero, Matt Rucker, Janelle, Michelle Cullen, J. Alex Anderson, schercm, Peter, Benjamin Carryer, Frode Tennebaum¸, Moose and Deer, Anitusar, Bruce Amazeen, Jim McGihon, Abraham Cottrill, Philip Grand, Father Prax, Mark Steven Rasnake, Camy Raissian, Dustin Ruoff, Brent Kreinop, Dwight Illk, Gfour184, Cemanski, Alex Raine, Andrew Stephenson, Gabriel Gauffin, James Rodger, Paul Hayden, Glenn McDavid, John Aliseth, Benjamin Davies, Sean Martz, The Air Major, Sam Brooks and his Mom, Karthik Venkatraman, The Lonely Sand Person, The Mysterious Mark, Bart Flaherty, Dean, Naila, Brian Kilby, Nate Detwiler, Arcticfox, John Drake, Lew Zealand, Corinne Dmitruk, Ganesh Swaminathan, Bob Zatzke, Ron Thorrsen, Jordan Turner, Leigh Harborne, Jason Kardokus, Robert Hundl, Kim Barron, Frank Stuart, planetar, Steven Coffey, Ruben McCarthy, Arthur Latz-Hall, Paul Esposito, Timelord Iroh, Daniel Donaldson, Ian Abdilla, and Geoff MacDonald. Thank you all so much. You are the people that make what we do possible.
Fraser: Thanks, everyone. We’ll see you next week.
Dr. Gay: Bye-bye.
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Last week we talked about the missions we’re saying goodbye to. This week, we’re going to talk about some upcoming missions to say hello to. Some are brand new ideas, others are, uh, recycled.
Download MP3 | Show Notes | Transcript
Show NotesMoon occults Mars tonight: How to watch (EarthSky)
Artemis I – Flight Day 20: Orion Conducts Return Powered Flyby (NASA Blogs)
JWST (NASA)
OSIRIS-REx Mission
OSIRIS-REx Would Have Sunk Deep into Asteroid Bennu if it Tried to Land (Universe Today)
What is normal force? (Khan Academy)
What is friction? (Khan Academy)
VIDEO Rubble Pile Asteroids (SETI Institute)
1st NASA Asteroid Sample Return Mission on Track for Fall ’23 Delivery (NASA)
In Depth | Apophis (NASA)
Types of orbits (ESA)
Glossary: Keyhole (CNEOS)
In Depth | 25143 Itokawa (NASA)
DART (JHUAPL)
NASA Confirms DART Mission Impact Changed Asteroid’s Motion in Space (NASA)
Roche Limit (Universe Today)
The First Mission to Jupiter’s Trojan Asteroids – Lucy Mission (SwRI)
Trojan Asteroids (Swinburne University)
Centaurs (Swinburne University)
Overview | Ganymede (NASA)
Overview | Kuiper Belt (NASA)
NASA’s Lucy Mission Provides Update on Latest Deployment Efforts (NASA Blogs)
NASA InSight’s ‘Mole’ Ends Its Journey on Mars (NASA)
Psyche Mission | A Mission to a Metal World (ASU)
NASA Announces Launch Delay for Psyche Asteroid Mission (NASA)
NASA asteroid mission Psyche delays push Venus probe launch to 2031 (Space.com)
Psyche Delay Compels JPL to Reckon With Overstretched Staff (AIP)
Maxar
TESS – Transiting Exoplanet Survey Satellite (NASA)
In Depth | 16 Psyche (NASA)
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It’s always sad to say goodbye, but when we send our robotic emissaries out into the cosmos, it’s just a matter of time before they shut down. Today we’re going to say goodbye to a few missions which have reached the end of their lives. But they were very good robots.
Download MP3 | Show Notes | Transcript
Show NotesInSight Mission – NASA’s InSight Mars Lander (NASA)
NASA Prepares to Say ‘Farewell’ to InSight Spacecraft (NASA)
InSight’s Robotic Arm Helps Remove Solar Panel Dust Trickles Sand in the Wind (NASA)
NASA InSight’s ‘Mole’ Ends Its Journey on Mars (NASA)
NASA’s InSight Finds Three Big Marsquakes, Thanks to Solar-Panel Dusting (NASA JPL)
NASA’s InSight Reveals the Deep Interior of Mars (NASA)
NASA’s Coating Technology Could Help Resolve Lunar Dust Challenge (NASA)
NASA is Testing a Coating to Help Astronauts and Their Equipment Shed Dangerous Lunar Dust (Universe Today)
SOFIA Science Center (USRA)
SOFIA flying observatory takes final flight (Astronomy Magazine)
NASA’s SOFIA Discovers Water on Sunlit Surface of Moon (NASA)
First Astrophysical Detection of a Very Special Molecule (USRA)
Costly SOFIA telescope faces termination after years of problems (Nature)
JWST (NASA)
What is a Lagrange Point? (NASA)
SpaceX pushing iterative design process, accepting failure to go fast (Ars Technica)
Space Launch System (NASA)
Scientific Balloons (NASA)
Airborne Astronomy Ambassadors Program (SETI Institute)
Voyager – Mission Overview (NASA)
Star Trek I: The Motion Picture (Star Trek)
Voyager – The Interstellar Mission (NASA)
In Depth | Oort Cloud (NASA)
Record-Breaking Voyager Spacecraft Begin to Power Down (Scientific American)
Edward Stone Retires After 50 Years as NASA Voyager’s Project Scientist (NASA)
How Do Gravitational Slingshots Work? (Universe Today)
The maths that made Voyager possible (BBC)
Voyager – Galleries of Images Voyager Took (NASA)
Voyager – Operations Plan to the End Mission (NASA JPL)
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Moons orbit planets, planets orbit stars, stars orbit within galaxies. It’s orbits all the way down. But occasionally objects can receive a powerful kick that sends them off on a journey, never to return.
PART II
PART III
Download MP3 | Show Notes | Transcript
Show NotesSuperman (DC Comics)
Iron Man (Tony Stark) (Marvel)
Conic Sections (Math is Fun)
Parabola (Math is Fun)
Hyperbola (Math is Fun)
Ellipse (Math is Fun)
Ballistic Trajectory (Universe Today)
FAQ – Earth (Planetary Science Institute)
Escape Velocity (Let’s Talk Science)
Spitzer (Caltech)
The Three-Body Problem (Scientific American)
PODCAST: Ep 102: Gravity (Astronomy Cast)
In Depth | Oort Cloud (NASA)
Overview | Comets (NASA)
Types of Comet (CometWatch)
In Depth | Oumuamua (NASA)
Ukrainian Astronomers Discover ‘Exocomets’ around Another Star (Scientific American)
The Solar System may have lost the original “Planet Nine” (Inverse)
Slingshot Star? (Science Magazine)
JOURNAL: A search for runaway stars in 12 Galactic supernova remnants (Astronomical Notes)
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Light pollution is a big problem, and it’s only getting worse -- not just near cities but everywhere thanks to increased satellite constellations. How bad is the problem, and how can we fix it?
We’re recording this episode on Halloween, so how could we resist but take advantage of this opportunity. Space is already terrifying enough, you know, with the vast endless emptiness, incomprehensible mysteries, and uncaring coldness. But here are some scary stories to spook it up a notch.
Space is a big place, with a lot of galaxies, stars, planets and moons, and that means a lot of names. How do astronomers name stuff, like comets, asteroids, exoplanets, craters?
This week we saw the incredible image of DART smashing into asteroid Dimorphos. Beyond avenging the dinosaurs, what can we learn scientifically from this and other asteroid/comet impact missions?
It’s been about 65 years since the Soviets launched the first orbital satellite into low Earth orbit: Sputnik 1. Now there are thousands of satellites in orbit, with tens of thousands on the way. Let’s look at the impact that Sputnik had on the history of spaceflight.
To battle climate change, we’ll need to rapidly move to carbon-free sources of energy. But this technology isn’t a free lunch. They require metals, generate waste and deplete the environment. What’s the best way to balance this shift?
Climate change is on our minds these days, with increasing wildfires, droughts and floods. What are the variables that play into a planet’s changing climate, and what can this teach us about the search for habitable planets across the Milky Way?
Last week we talked about how single-use rocketry has changed over time, and the role it still plays in launching payloads into orbit and beyond. Today, we’ll address the stainless steel elephant in the room and talk about the shift to reusability.
On the day that we’re recording this, NASA’s Space Launch System is about to blast off. But everyone is expecting it’ll be delayed to October. When it does launch, it’ll be the most powerful rocket on Earth. Well, until Starship blasts off. Are we about to see the end of single-use rockets and enter the era of reusable rocketry?
Well, this is it, we’re finally going to talk about the James Webb Space Telescope. After decades of development, delays and budget creep, the powerful infrared observatory is at its final home at the L2 Lagrange Point. Yesterday we saw the first scientific images from the telescope, and according to Pamela’s rules, we’re finally allowed to talk about it.
Have you ever noticed that significant space and astronomy events seem to happen during holidays? It’s not a coincidence, there’s actually a reason why. Today we’ll talk about some of the key events that happened during holidays.
Summer is officially, astronomically here. And for folks in the Northern Hemisphere, that means it’s the perfect time to head outside and see what’s happening in the sky. Today we’ll give you a good list of things to keep an eye out for, with or without a telescope.
Summer is here and that means finally tackling your huge list of books piled up on your bedside table and filling up your Kindle. What books do we recommend for some fun reads?
We always say that we're living in golden age of space and astronomy, but it feels like things are just accelerating. What does the long-term future hold for our place in the Universe?
The International Space Station has been continuously inhabited for over 20 years now, serving as a peaceful collaboration between space-faring nations. But it's a machine, and it's getting old. In addition, the Russian invasion of Ukraine has made things complicated. What's the future for the ISS?
Now that we've discovered thousands of exoplanets, we're learning more and more about what kinds of planetary systems there are out there across the Universe. Are planets like Earth unique or totally rare?
All the waiting is over, we've finally seen the image of the event horizon from the supermassive black hole at the heart of the Milky Way. Today we're going to explain the picture, and what's next for the Event Horizon Telescope.
We've always assumed that we lived in a perfectly normal system with a normal star and normal planets. It's all... normal. But with our modern understanding of billions of stars, just how normal is our Sun, anyway?
The Earth is teeming with life, both in the upper atmosphere to kilometers underground. There's no question that our planet has life. But is our planet itself alive? This is a question posed back in the 1970s as the Gaia hypothesis, and it got its share of criticism. Some new ideas have been proposed to bring this hypothesis to the modern era.