SpreadLove In Organizations: Recent Episodes
Naji Gehchan
Hear from leaders across the world on their journeys spreading love in their organizations bringing genuine care for people to thrive resulting in a positive impact for the company’s stakeholders and healthcare globally. https://spreadloveio.com/
In this episode of Spread Love in Organizations, Sophie Kornowski reflects on a remarkable leadership journey spanning global pharmaceutical companies, biotech, investing, and entrepreneurship. From her early days in diagnostics during the AIDS epidemic to leading Boston Pharmaceuticals through its successful transformation and acquisition, she shares how both inspiring mentors and difficult setbacks shaped her leadership philosophy. Sophie explains why great leadership is built through continuous learning, self-awareness, and staying close to the people doing the work, while creating an environment where teams feel supported, challenged, and accountable.
The conversation explores what it takes to build and lead successful biotech organizations in today's demanding environment. Sophie shares the principles that guided Boston Pharmaceuticals: identifying where true value lies, committing to a clear strategy without drifting, and remaining flexible in execution without losing sight of the mission. She discusses balancing empowerment with accountability, making courageous decisions amid uncertainty, and why exceptional companies combine a differentiated scientific vision with outstanding execution, commercial thinking, and teams that are willing to question assumptions and keep learning.
Looking ahead, Sophie offers an optimistic perspective on the future of healthcare innovation, highlighting major opportunities in metabolic disease, oncology, and immunology while emphasizing that improving patient health remains the industry's ultimate purpose. In a memorable reflection on leadership, she describes leadership as "friendship," explaining that trust, psychological safety, and genuine human connection give people the courage to speak up, innovate, and achieve extraordinary results. She closes with a powerful reminder for leaders navigating uncertainty: stay the course, keep learning, and maintain open, honest dialogue with your teams and boards.
"If people feel they are not in danger, they will have courage. They will be creative. They will speak up."
MEET OUR GUEST Sophie Kornowski, CEO Sophiekor Insights.
Sophie Kornowski is a long-time biotech and pharmaceutical executive and now the CEO of Sophiekor Insights.
Prior to this role, Sophie served as Chief Executive Officer and Chair of the Board of Boston Pharmaceuticals, where she led a remarkable transformation of the company, culminating in its successful acquisition by GSK in 2025 for up to 2 billion dollars. Before that, Sophie was a Partner at Gurnet Point Capital, a private investment firm focused on healthcare, where she was a successful investor in several innovative start-ups and high-growth businesses developing and commercializing products across areas including ADHD, cancer, and food allergy. Earlier in her career, Sophie was Executive Vice President of Partnering at Roche and a member of the Extended Corporate Executive Committee of F. Hoffmann-La Roche, as well as a board member of Chugai Pharmaceutical. In that role, working closely with the R&D and commercial teams at Roche and Genentech, she led global partnering and M&A strategy across biotech, pharma, health tech, and research institutions worldwide.
Previously, Sophie also led Roche’s largest affiliate outside the United States, based in France, for many years.
In this episode of Spread Love in Organizations, Kristina Masson, Co-Founder and Executive Vice President of Business Operations at Acrivon Therapeutics, shares her journey from scientist to entrepreneur and biotech executive. She reflects on how a passion for cancer research, combined with the right timing, technology, and partnerships, led to the creation of Acrivon and its pioneering precision proteomics platform. Kristina also discusses the challenges of building a company from the ground up, taking it public, and translating cutting-edge science into therapies that have the potential to transform patients' lives.
The conversation explores the future of precision medicine and how Acrivon's AP3 platform is helping reshape oncology drug development by identifying predictive biomarkers, understanding resistance mechanisms, and enabling smarter clinical trial design. Kristina explains how integrating diagnostics, drug discovery, and therapeutics within one organization accelerates innovation while increasing the likelihood of delivering the right treatment to the right patient. She also shares insights into leading teams across the United States and Sweden and building a collaborative culture that fuels scientific excellence.
Beyond science and business, the discussion turns to leadership. Kristina reflects on the importance of accountability, authenticity, kindness, and integrity in building high-performing organizations. She explains why love and high performance are not mutually exclusive and why leaders have a responsibility to remain focused on the ultimate goal: improving patients' lives. This episode offers an inspiring perspective on purpose-driven leadership, entrepreneurship, and creating lasting impact in healthcare.
"When we have good science, good people, and good options for patients, it's our obligation to make it work."
MEET OUR GUEST Kristina Masson, Co-Founder and Executive Vice President of Business Operations at Acrivon Therapeutics.
Kristina Masson, Ph.D., MBA is a global biotech executive, entrepreneur, and scientist with extensive experience in company building, translational drug development, and operational leadership. She is Co-Founder and Executive Vice President of Business Operations at Acrivon Therapeutics (NASDAQ: ACRV), where she leads key business operations and works closely with the CEO and executive team to scale the organization and support corporate execution.
Since co-founding Acrivon, she has helped grow the company from an early-stage startup into a public biotechnology company with more than 80 employees, building high-performing teams and an integrated U.S.–Scandinavian organizational culture.
In parallel, Dr. Masson serves as President and CEO of Acrivon AB, the company’s wholly owned Swedish research subsidiary, where she oversees European operations and scientific infrastructure. Dividing her time between Boston and Lund, she plays an important role in aligning strategy, talent, and operations across the company’s U.S. and European teams.
Prior to her current roles, Dr. Masson founded OncoSignature AB, a biotechnology company focused on biomarker discovery, which was later acquired by Acrivon Therapeutics and became foundational to the company’s proprietary technology platform. Earlier in her career, she was a Principal Scientist at Merrimack Pharmaceuticals and completed her postdoctoral fellowship at the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard, where she conducted research at the intersection of molecular biology and systems science.
Dr. Masson holds a Ph.D. in Molecular Signaling and an M.Sc. in Biomedicine from Lund University, as well as an Executive MBA from the MIT Sloan School of Management. She also serves as a mentor with the Termeer Institute.
Click here for more episodes in partnership with The Termeer Institute.
In this episode of Spread Love in Organizations, Naji is joined by Amy Simon, Chief Medical Officer of Beam, for a conversation about leadership, scientific innovation, humility, and the human side of healthcare. Amy shares her remarkable journey from physician-scientist and academic researcher at Tufts University to biotech executive leading the development of transformative medicines. She reflects on what drew her to medicine, her passion for solving complex problems, and how curiosity and a desire to bring scientific discoveries closer to patients shaped her career.Amy opens up about one of the most important transitions in her career: moving from academia, where she had built expertise and recognition, into biotech, where she had to relearn how to lead in a different environment. She shares the humility that came with realizing that technical expertise alone is not enough — effective leadership requires influence without authority, continuous learning, curiosity, and the ability to create environments where people feel safe to speak up. We discuss psychological safety, trust, healthy conflict, feedback, and the importance of building cultures where diverse perspectives can help teams make better decisions.We also explore the future of medicine and the promise of precision therapies, including how new technologies could transform the way we prevent and treat disease. Amy shares her hope for the next generation of leaders: people who are mission-driven, willing to challenge conventional thinking, and courageous enough to innovate beyond what has been done before. A powerful conversation on leadership as a never-ending journey, the responsibility we have to patients, and why bringing humanity, care, and even love into organizations can help us achieve extraordinary things together.
"We never stop growing or needing to grow."
MEET OUR GUEST Amy Simon, M.D. is Chief Medical Officer of Beam.
Amy Simon, M.D. is Chief Medical Officer of Beam. Dr. Simon brings more than 20 years of clinical experience to Beam, serving in roles as a physician-scientist in academia and the biotechnology industry.
Dr. Simon joins Beam from Alnylam Pharmaceuticals, where she spent over a decade in various roles with increasing responsibility for the clinical development of RNAi-based medicines, most recently serving as Vice President, Clinical Development. During her tenure at Alnylam, she led the successful execution of clinical programs from natural history studies to Phase 1 through Phase 4 studies, regulatory interactions with both U.S. and ex-U.S. authorities, and drug approvals in the U.S. and EU. Dr. Simon was the lead clinician developing GIVLAARI® (givosiran) for patients with acute hepatic porphyria, which was approved by the Food and Drug Administration in 2019. Prior to entering the biotech industry, Dr. Simon worked in academia at Tufts University, serving as a professor and a director of the Asthma Center in the Pulmonary and Critical Care Division at Tufts University School of Medicine and as a professor at Tufts Graduate School of Biomedical Science where her laboratory conducted basic science research on asthma. She began her career in clinical practice, training as a resident in internal medicine and as a fellow in pulmonary and critical care medicine at Tufts Medical Center.
Dr. Simon holds a B.A. in History and Science from Harvard University, and an M.D. from Tufts University School of Medicine.
In this episode of Spread Love in Organizations, Naji Gehchan sits down with Pedro Coelho, Founder and CEO of Biorce, to explore how artificial intelligence is transforming the future of clinical research. Pedro shares the deeply personal story that inspired his mission: the loss of his father to melanoma despite gaining access to an innovative clinical trial. That experience led him to question the inefficiencies of the clinical research ecosystem and ultimately fueled his determination to build technology that could help bring life-saving therapies to patients faster.
Pedro discusses how Biorce is reimagining clinical development through an AI-powered operating system designed to support every stage of the process—from asset strategy and protocol design to site selection, patient matching, and study execution. He explains how AI can identify avoidable protocol amendments, optimize trial design, and help organizations make smarter decisions with greater speed and precision. The conversation offers a fascinating look at how AI is evolving from a productivity tool into a strategic partner for drug development teams.
Beyond technology, Pedro reflects on leadership, culture, and the importance of keeping patients at the center of innovation. He shares why great leadership requires adaptability, humility, and a willingness to challenge conventional thinking. Together, Naji and Pedro explore a future where AI accelerates medical breakthroughs while human judgment, purpose, and compassion remain essential. It is an inspiring discussion about innovation, resilience, and the opportunity to transform healthcare for millions of patients around the world.
"If you don't have a great culture, you will not succeed in the age of AI."
MEET OUR GUEST Pedro Coelho Founder & CEO of Biorce.
Pedro Coelho is Founder & CEO of Biorce, an AI-native company transforming how clinical trials are designed, optimized, and executed. After years advising pharma and biotech companies as a strategy consultant in the life sciences sector, Pedro saw firsthand how inefficiencies in the clinical research process were slowing access to life-saving treatments. The consequences weren’t just operational; they were human. Drugs were too expensive. Timelines too long. And too many patients were left behind. In 2024, he founded Biorce to change that. Biorce, short for “Biology’s Force,” is building the world’s first true AI assistant for clinical trials. Pedro is passionate about the intersection of technology, data, and human impact, and believes AI has a central role to play in reshaping how treatments reach those who need them most.
In this episode of Spread Love in Organizations, Naji Gehchan sits down with Greg Tietjen, Co-Founder and CEO of Revalia Bio, for a fascinating conversation that bridges science, technology, leadership, and humanity. Greg shares his unconventional journey—from studying English literature and pursuing a career in jazz guitar to becoming a physicist, scientist, Yale professor, and biotech entrepreneur. Along the way, he reflects on the life experiences, setbacks, and moments of reinvention that shaped his approach to learning, leadership, and purpose.
At the heart of the discussion is Revalia Bio’s mission to transform the way medicines are developed by creating human-centered data platforms built around donated organs and advanced perfusion technologies. Greg explains how the industry’s biggest challenge is not a lack of innovation, but the gap between promising discoveries and successful patient outcomes. He shares his vision for “Human Data Trials,” a new approach designed to generate more predictive human data earlier in development, helping researchers make better decisions, reduce risk, and ultimately bring more effective therapies to patients.
Beyond the science, Greg offers a thoughtful perspective on leadership, culture, and trust. He discusses the importance of stewardship, vulnerability, collaboration, and creating environments where people from different backgrounds can work together toward a shared mission. Drawing on lessons from music, academia, and entrepreneurship, he explores why the future of innovation depends not only on technology, but also on our ability to build trust, embrace discomfort, and transform challenges into enduring impact. This episode is a powerful reflection on purpose-driven leadership and the human side of scientific progress.
"We transform loss into enduring impact."
MEET OUR GUEST Greg Tietjen Co-Founder and CEO at Revalia Bio.
Greg Tietjen is the CEO and co-founder of Revalia Bio, where he leads the team pioneering Revalia’s Human Data Trials™ — a new class of preclinical and clinical companion studies that generate human-relevant data before a drug ever reaches a patient. These trials are powered by Revalia’s Human Data Stack™: an integrated platform that connects perfused non-transplantable human organs, de-identified patient records, biopsy data, organ-on-chip systems, and advanced AI/ML analytics into a unified model of human biology.
Greg and the team’s founding insight was that non-transplantable human organs — often discarded due to conditions like cancer or fibrosis — could serve as the Rosetta Stone of the Human Data Stack™. These organs provide unmatched physiological relevance and enable the integration of otherwise siloed human data sources. This approach gives new purpose to donated organs that would otherwise go unused, transforming the tragic loss of one person into a platform capable of enabling others to develop breakthrough therapies that may save countless lives. It’s a system built on honoring donor gifts while bringing together care teams, biotech innovators, and regulators as One Team, moving at lightning speed to transform the future of medicine together.
Greg’s path to biotech was anything but conventional. After earning a degree in Literature and training to be a musician, a severe elbow injury forced him to change course. He went on to complete a PhD in Biophysics at the University of Chicago and postdoctoral training in Biomedical Engineering at Yale. As a faculty member at the Yale School of Medicine, his lab became internationally recognized for advancing the frontiers of human organ research.
In 2023, Greg left his tenure-track role at Yale to build Revalia full-time. Today, he’s focused on laying the foundation for a new era of biomedical innovation — one that is ethically grounded, operationally scalable, and powered by real human data.
In this episode of Spread Love in Organizations, Naji Gehchan sits down with Justin McKay, co-founder of Radiological Care Services (RCS), to explore how a personal healthcare experience sparked a mission-driven company focused on patient and staff safety. After contracting an infection from contaminated X-ray garments while working in hospitals, Justin realized a major gap existed in infection prevention practices. What began as frustration turned into purpose, leading him to build RCS from the ground up despite years of uncertainty, financial struggle, and skepticism from the industry.
Justin shares his deeply personal journey growing up in rural Indiana, raised by a single mother who instilled in him the values of service, humility, and generosity. Those early lessons shaped not only his entrepreneurial resilience but also the culture he intentionally built at RCS. Today, the company has grown into a national organization rooted in servant leadership, where employees are encouraged to serve their communities, care for one another, and bring humanity back into the workplace.
The conversation also dives into the broader challenges facing healthcare today, from patient safety and infection prevention to leadership and organizational culture. Justin speaks candidly about why he believes healthcare still has work to do, while remaining hopeful about innovation and positive change. Above all, this episode is a powerful reminder that businesses thrive when people feel valued, seen, and loved - and that spreading love in organizations is not optional, but essential to meaningful leadership.
"People over profits. Every single time."
MEET OUR GUEST Justin McKay, Co-Founder, RadCare Services.
Justin McKay is the Co-Founder of Radiological Care Services (RCS), a leading provider of X-ray garment cleaning and sanitization solutions. With over 15 years of experience in the healthcare industry, Justin is passionate about patient and staff safety. Driven by a personal experience with a hospital-acquired infection linked to contaminated X-ray garments in 2012, Justin co-founded RCS in 2013. Since then, he has spearheaded the company’s growth, transforming it from a cleaning service to a comprehensive solutions platform.
Prior to RCS, Justin held leadership positions in national sales at Ferris Mfg. Corp., a manufacturer of medical textiles. Justin is a recognized expert in X-ray garment care and infection prevention. He leverages his expertise to collaborate with healthcare departments, developing customized programs that deliver value, consistency, and measurable outcomes.
In this episode, Naji welcomes Elisabetta Vitali, Executive Director of the Giovanni Armenise Harvard Foundation, to explore her unique journey from high-level finance to leading a mission-driven organization at the intersection of science and philanthropy. After a successful career in investment banking and infrastructure funds, Elisabetta made a deeply personal and values-driven transition into the nonprofit world, motivated by her own health experiences, her family background in science, and a desire to contribute meaningfully to both scientific progress and her home country of Italy.
Elisabetta shares the powerful story behind the Foundation, born from a personal tragedy that highlighted the urgent need for deeper investment in basic science. Today, the organization supports early-stage, high-risk research and fosters collaboration between Italy and the United States, with a strong focus on developing scientific talent. Through initiatives like career development awards, the Foundation not only funds research but invests in people, helping scientists build labs, grow careers, and create long-term impact across borders. Their work demonstrates how sustained commitment to fundamental science can generate ripple effects in innovation, education, and global collaboration.
Throughout the conversation, Elisabetta reflects on leadership, legacy, and the importance of humanity in science. She emphasizes motivation, respect, and long-term vision as key drivers of impactful leadership, especially in fields where results may take years to materialize. Her perspective highlights a powerful truth: advancing science is not just about discoveries, but about nurturing communities, empowering individuals, and building systems that allow knowledge - and people - to thrive.
"Without investing in basic science, we’re basically trying to build the skyscraper starting from the roof."
MEET OUR GUEST Elisabetta Vitali, Executive Director of the Giovanni Armenise Harvard Foundation.
Elisabetta Vitali is the Executive Director of the Giovanni Armenise Harvard Foundation, a role she has held since February 2025, after more than a decade of leading the Foundation’s Italian Programs. With over 25 years of international experience across philanthropy, finance, and strategic management, she brings a distinctive combination of analytical depth, leadership, and cross-sector vision to advancing the Foundation’s mission of supporting world-class scientific research and fostering collaboration between Italy and the United States.
Before joining the Foundation in 2014, Elisabetta built a successful career in investment banking and infrastructure finance. She served as Vice President at Lazard & Co., where she advised leading European corporations on mergers, acquisitions, and complex cross-border transactions totaling more than €3.5 billion. She later joined AEDES SpA, supporting the firm’s international expansion and fund management strategy, and became one of the investment partners at F2i SGR, Italy’s largest infrastructure fund, where she oversaw major transactions in energy, transportation, and utilities, contributing to a portfolio exceeding €2 billion.
Drawing on her financial and strategic background, Elisabetta transitioned to the nonprofit sector, where she has since applied the same rigor and long-term vision to advancing scientific excellence and collaboration across the Boston and Italy. At the Armenise Harvard Foundation, she has launched several key initiatives—including the Armenise Harvard Airalzh and INF-ACT Mid-Career Awards—and strengthened partnerships between Italian institutions, Harvard Medical School, and global research organizations.
A graduate of Bocconi University with full honors in Economics and Social Disciplines, Elisabetta is known for her ability to connect people and ideas across sectors and borders, and commitment to translating strategy into lasting impact for science and society.
In this episode of Spread Love in Organizations, Naji Gehchan sits down with Mona Flores, a physician, former Global Head of Medical AI at NVIDIA, and a leader at the intersection of healthcare, technology, and impact. Mona shares her unconventional journey from investment banking to cardiac surgery and ultimately to pioneering work in artificial intelligence. She reflects on the power of reinvention, the importance of following purpose over plan, and how her experiences shaped a vision of scaling healthcare impact from one patient to millions through AI-driven innovation.
The conversation explores both the present and future of AI in healthcare - from improving workflows today to enabling entirely new, AI-native approaches to drug discovery, diagnostics, and disease prevention. Mona also highlights her humanitarian work through the “Your Turn” campaign, mobilizing global tech talent to support Lebanon. Grounded in a deep sense of purpose, she challenges healthcare leaders to embrace AI without fear, focus on real-world impact, and use their “one life” to create meaningful change at scale.
"Don’t be afraid of AI, be afraid of not using it to make the world better."
MEET OUR GUEST Mona Flores, physician and healthcare innovator with a passion for advancing medicine and science through artificial intelligence, former Global Head of Medical AI at NVIDIA.
Mona Flores is a physician and healthcare innovator with a passion for advancing medicine and science through artificial intelligence. As the former Global Head of Medical AI at NVIDIA, she helped build and lead a global ecosystem bringing AI technologies into healthcare. She completed her medical training at OHSU, UC San Diego, Stanford, and Columbia, and also holds an MBA and a Master's in Biology. With experience spanning cardiothoracic surgery, digital health, and investment banking, Mona brings a multidisciplinary perspective to solving healthcare's most complex challenges. She continues to work at the forefront of AI, science, and medicine, focused on scalable innovation that improves patient care and drives meaningful impact.
To learn more, go to the Campaign site yourturnlebanon.com and you can also follow here.
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In this episode of Spread Love in Organizations, Naji Gehchan welcomes Catharine Smith and Jason Cordeiro for a conversation on leadership, ecosystem building, and the future of biotech. Catharine Smith, an experienced healthcare and nonprofit leader, shares her journey from clinical and health system roles to leading the Tremier Institute, where she focuses on developing the next generation of biotech leaders. Jason Cordeiro, Chief Operating and Innovation Officer at MassBio, reflects on his path from scientific research to ecosystem leadership, emphasizing his passion for connecting innovators and enabling the development of new therapies for patients.
The discussion highlights the strategic partnership between the Tremier Institute and MassBio, including the creation of the Founder Link initiative. Both guests explain how this collaboration emerged from shared goals and parallel strategic planning processes, ultimately aiming to strengthen the early-stage biotech ecosystem in Boston and beyond. By combining MassBio’s extensive industry network with the Tremier Institute’s leadership development expertise, the partnership provides founders and executives with a structured space for connection, learning, and peer support.
The conversation also explores the evolving definition of leadership in healthcare and biotech. Catharine and Jason emphasize that leadership is not only a skill that can be learned but one rooted in empathy, human-centered thinking, and purpose. They stress the importance of community, resilience, and aligning innovation with patient impact. The episode closes with reflections on “spreading love in organizations,” underscoring the belief that kindness, authenticity, and strong relationships are essential to building meaningful, high-impact healthcare organizations.
"In biotech, progress happens when leadership, community, and science come together to improve humanity."
MEET OUR GUESTS Catharine Smith CEO of the Termeer Institute, & Jason Cordeiro Chief Operating & Innovation Officer, MassBio.
Catharine Smith is a mission-driven executive leader with more than 15 years of experience scaling high-impact organizations at the intersection of healthcare, innovation, and equity. As the inaugural CEO of the Termeer Institute, she has built an international leadership organization from the ground up, launching global partnerships and scaling programs that expand access and opportunity for emerging leaders across the biotechnology ecosystem. Prior to the Termeer Institute, Catharine served as the CEO of the Clinton Health Matters Initiative at the Clinton Foundation where she led a team focused on stigma reduction and overdose prevention related to the opioid epidemic.
Known for her inclusive leadership and ability to bridge sectors, Catharine is a trusted voice on leadership, health equity, and innovation, regularly teaching and speaking at international forums. Catharine’s leadership is grounded in a deep commitment to advancing women and underrepresented leaders, supporting emerging talent, and building ecosystems where diverse voices shape the future of leadership. Catharine is a Fulbright Scholar and holds a master’s degree in business administration from the Massachusetts Institute.
Jason Cordeiro is the Chief Operating & Innovation Officer. He joined MassBio in September of 2018 as the Vice President of Consortium Operations. In his current role, Jason is responsible for helping drive MassBio’s strategic vision and ensuring the organization is always positioned to support the industry. He is responsible for leading the membership organization and focuses on industry partnering and early-stage company support through our Partnering programs and Edge services. In his tenure at MassBio, Jason has overseen the launch of several new programs, including MassBioDrive, Align Summit, and the MassBioHub.
Jason received a B.S. in Biology from Emmanuel College. He had worked at BIDMC researching the effects of NSAIDS on ovarian, prostate, and breast cancers and had spent nine years with Thermo Fisher Scientific in various commercial roles. Jason combines his professional talents and love for the outdoors as he sits on the board of Elevate Youth, a local organization. He currently resides on the South Shore with his wife and two children.
More Episode in partnership with the Termeer Institute can be found here. Give them a listen!
In this inspiring episode of SpreadLove in Organizations, Naji Gehchan sits down with serial biotech entrepreneur and investor Moise Khayrallah to explore a remarkable four-decade journey across pharmaceutical drug development, leadership, and purpose-driven innovation. From his roots in Lebanon and academic beginnings in psychology at the American University of Beirut and UNC Chapel Hill, Moise reflects on how research methodology, pattern recognition, and a deep sense of purpose unexpectedly led him into the world of biotech. He shares how the transferable skills of rigorous research and team building became the foundation for founding and scaling multiple successful biotech ventures, including companies behind transformative assets such as Sunosi.
The conversation dives into the realities of building companies in one of the world’s highest-risk industries. Moise offers powerful lessons on entrepreneurship in biotech: move fast, stay nimble, capitalize on existing scientific data, and know-how to take bold but calculated risks. He introduces a memorable leadership concepts - the “line of foolishness” - the delicate balance between courage and recklessness. Through stories from his own ventures, he explains how experience-driven pattern recognition, conviction, and the courage to act under uncertainty are essential to bringing medicines from concept to patients. The discussion also looks ahead to the future of medicine, where Moise sees AI playing a transformative role in breaking down complex umbrella diseases into more precise and treatable subgroups.
Beyond business and science, this episode is deeply human. Moise speaks passionately about leadership as courage, legacy as responsibility, and love as a force for healing organizations and societies. This conversation is a profound reflection on resilience, service, and what it truly means to lead with vision and heart in healthcare.
"Without courage, you can’t get anything done. If you wait until everything is perfect, you don’t get anywhere."
MEET OUR GUEST Moise Khayrallah, CEO Emergo Therapeutics, Founder and Chairman, Lebanon & Beyond.
Dr. Moise Khayrallah is a serial entrepreneur and investor in pharmaceutical drug development and biotechnology. He acquired his experience over a 40-year period across diverse pharmaceutical environments, including large pharmaceutical companies, contract research organizations, and biotechnology companies.
His latest startup venture is Emergo Therapeutics Inc., which develops drugs to modulate inflammatory cytokines and improve the functioning of the immune system in infectious disease indications. Emergo is his fifth startup biopharmaceutical company.
He is also Chairman of the Board and co-Founder of QuatroBio, LLC, a startup biopharmaceutical holding company focused on developing drugs for central nervous system disorders. In addition, he currently serves on the Board of Directors of several startup companies in the pharmaceutical and information technology industries.
Prior to these positions, Dr. Khayrallah co-founded and led Aerial BioPharma, LLC, which sold its major drug asset, Sunosi (solriamfetol), to Jazz Pharmaceuticals in early 2014.
In 2010, Dr. Khayrallah was co-founder, President, and CEO of Neuronex Inc., a company focused on developing treatments for patients with certain seizure disorders. Neuronex was acquired by Acorda Therapeutics in 2013.
In 2006, he co-founded and served as President and CEO of Addrenex Pharmaceuticals, Inc., a specialty pharmaceutical company that developed and received FDA approvals for compounds targeting the adrenergic system. Addrenex was acquired in late 2009 by Shionogi & Co. of Japan.
In 2002, Dr. Khayrallah founded Alius Pharma, LLC, a consulting company partnering with small biotechnology companies in cancer drug development.
From 1999 to 2002, he served as VP of Clinical Affairs at Cytran, Inc., a Seattle-area biotechnology company, where he led the product development team for the company’s lead oncology compound and participated in financing and joint venture activities.
Prior to that, Dr. Khayrallah served as Director of Clinical Research and Regulatory Affairs at Lineberry Research Associates (later Constella Group and SRI International) in Research Triangle Park, North Carolina.
From 1987 to 1996, he held various leadership roles at Burroughs Wellcome Co. and later Glaxo Wellcome (now GSK), where he led clinical trials and programs resulting in FDA approvals in CNS indications.
He holds a Ph.D. in Psychology from University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and a Bachelor’s degree in Psychology from American University of Beirut.
Beyond biotechnology, Dr. Khayrallah is deeply involved in entrepreneurial and non-profit networks in the United States and internationally.
He currently serves as the Honorary Consul for Lebanon in North Carolina, supporting the Lebanese American community and representing its interests in Lebanon and the United States.
He is also the Founder and Board Chair of Lebanon & Beyond (L&B), a nonprofit organization dedicated to revitalizing Lebanon and strengthening ties with its global diaspora through innovative educational programs.
Its flagship programs include:
- Jouzour: an immersive summer program reconnecting young members of the Lebanese diaspora with Lebanon through cultural education, service, and community-building
- Jana: a multi-year initiative focused on reimagining equitable education in Lebanon in the age of artificial intelligence and digital transformation
In 2014, he endowed the Moise A. Khayrallah Center for Lebanese Diaspora Studies at North Carolina State University, the first center of its kind outside Lebanon and the first privately endowed center in NC State’s history.
The Center is dedicated to preserving and documenting the history of the worldwide Lebanese diaspora through archives, documentaries, exhibitions, lectures, and the annual Khayrallah Prize.
Dr. Khayrallah has also served on numerous boards and advisory councils, including:
- Board of Trustees, Lebanese American University
- International Advisory Council, American University of Beirut
- Board of Directors, North Carolina Biotechnology Center
- Chair, Carolina Ballet
- Chair, Go Global NC
- Chancellor’s Philanthropic Council, UNC-Chapel Hill
- Board of Visitors, UNC School of Education
At UNC’s School of Education, he created the Moise A. Khayrallah Innovation Fund, supporting the Master of Arts in Educational Innovation, Technology, and Entrepreneurship program.
Dr. Khayrallah remains committed to advancing education, entrepreneurship, culture, and philanthropy, while building bridges across communities and generations.
This episode is in partnership with BIOLOINK.ORG. More episodes with BIOLINKERS here.
In this episode of Spread Love in Organizations, Naji Gehchan sits down with Kylie Wagner, a senior commercial leader at Takeda with more than 20 years of experience across rare, specialty, and chronic care markets. Kylie shares the personal journey that brought her into healthcare, from her upbringing in the Midwest and her background as a competitive tennis player to the deeply personal experiences that shaped her commitment to improving patient outcomes. Her story is one of resilience, systems thinking, and purpose-driven leadership.
Together, Naji and Kylie explore what it truly takes to turn strategy into impact in healthcare and biotech. Kylie explains why even the strongest commercial strategies can fail when organizations do not execute effectively across complex cross-functional teams. She offers powerful insights into the importance of operations, decision-making, and building systems that allow teams to move faster so innovation can reach patients without delay.
The episode also dives into Kylie’s leadership philosophy, centered on trust, accountability, and clarity. She shares how leaders can create high-performing teams in times of uncertainty by listening deeply, empowering others, and embracing a digital-first mindset. This conversation is a thoughtful look at modern healthcare leadership and a powerful reminder that every decision made inside an organization ultimately shapes the patient experience.
"Patients cannot and should not wait."
MEET OUR GUEST Kylie Wagner, BioPharmaCommercial Executive.
Kylie Wagner is a commercial executive with more than 20 years of experience leading growth, portfolio performance, and launches across rare, specialty, and chronic markets.
She currently leads Marketing and Business Unit Customer Engagement at Takeda, where she is responsible for commercial strategy and P&L performance for a complex portfolio. Her work centers on translating scientific innovation into real-world adoption by aligning strategy, access, and customer engagement.
She builds organizations grounded in trust and accountability so teams can perform in uncertainty and turn strategy into consistent results.
In addition to her commercial leadership roles, she previously served as Chief of Staff to the U.S. Business Unit President, supporting enterprise strategy across the organization. She holds an Executive MBA from MIT Sloan School of Management.
In this episode of Spread Love in Organizations, Naji Gehchan sits down with Lina Polimeni, Chief Marketing Officer, Consumer at Eli Lilly, to explore what it truly means to lead with purpose in healthcare marketing. Lina shares her unconventional journey into the industry, from aspiring to work in music and film to building a 20+ year career at Lilly, and how her passion for meaningful, impactful work has shaped her leadership philosophy.
Together, they dive into the evolution of healthcare marketing, emphasizing the need to move beyond conversations centered on illness and instead bring health into everyday life. Lina highlights the power of emotional storytelling, authenticity, and cultural relevance in driving real impact, far beyond traditional metrics. She also offers a behind-the-scenes look at how she fosters bold creativity within her teams by creating a culture of trust, accountability, and psychological safety.
The conversation goes deeper into leadership, inspiration, and personal growth. Lina reflects on the importance of experiences outside of work to fuel creativity, the influence of her upbringing on her leadership style, and her belief that true impact lies in shaping both culture and future leaders. Her closing message is a powerful reminder: healthcare leaders should see themselves not just as leaders in healthcare, but as leaders of health, bringing it to the forefront of everyday conversations and ultimately improving lives.
"Don’t think of yourself as a healthcare leader. Think of yourself as a leader in health."
MEET OUR GUEST Lina Polimeni SVP, Chief Marketing Officer Consumer at Eli Lilly and Company.
Lina Polimeni leads Eli Lilly and Company’s global consumer marketing strategy across its corporate brand and medicine portfolio. Since joining Lilly in 2004, she has held a range of leadership roles across business and marketing, including leading U.S. Direct-to-Consumer advertising, serving as Cialis regional brand leader for Australia, Canada, and Europe, and launching Taltz with consumers while leading marketing for diabetes. She has spearheaded transformative initiatives that have reshaped the company’s approach to media, multicultural marketing, sports partnerships, and celebrity engagement. Polimeni’s campaigns have earned multiple Effie Awards and positioned Lilly at the forefront of purpose-driven, emotionally resonant storytelling that builds trust and drives better patient outcomes. An influential voice in marketing, she has been recognized as one of Campaign US’s Top 50 CMOs, an Ad Age Woman to Watch, and a 2025 Campaign Inspiring Women honoree. She continues to push boundaries with work that fuses creativity, impact, and purpose—bringing category-breaking campaigns to life that redefine what healthcare marketing can achieve.
In this insightful return to Spread Love in Organizations, Naji welcomes back award-winning leadership professor and executive coach Amer Kaissi to discuss his newest book, The Positive Intent Mindset. Building on the foundation of his previous work, Humbitious, Amer shares how his upbringing in war-torn Lebanon, and the example of his mother leading an orphanage during the civil war, shaped his belief that humility and ambition must coexist in effective leadership. In times of crisis and complexity, he argues, leaders must connect with humility while elevating standards with accountability.
The conversation dives deeply into the heart of the Positive Intent Mindset: choosing to assume positive intent as a starting point for leadership. Amer explains that in today’s environment, many teams suffer not from lack of talent, but from assumptions of negative intent that erode trust, engagement, and collaboration. Assuming positive intent is not naïve optimism, it is a courageous leadership choice. It begins with trust, invites open dialogue, and is reinforced by accountability when behaviors are repeated or misaligned. When leaders trust first, they create psychological safety, accelerate collaboration, and foster healthier relationships while also protecting their own wellbeing from the toll of rumination and negativity.
Throughout the episode, Amer offers practical tools leaders can apply immediately, including three reflective questions to challenge bias and judgment. He reminds us that leadership today requires projecting calm, inspiring hope, and being intentional about spreading love, while holding people to high standards. In difficult times, trust and accountability are not opposing forces; they are partners. This episode is a compelling call for leaders in healthcare and beyond to lead with courage, discipline, and a mindset that builds trust before mistrust takes root.
"Trust is the starting point. Project calm, inspire hope, and make accountability the standard."
MEET OUR GUEST Amer Kaissi, an-award winning Professor of Leadership.
Amer Kaissi is an-award winning Professor of Leadership. He is an executive coach that has worked with hundreds of leaders and teams all over the world. Amer is the author of five books, including “Humbitious: the power of low-ego, high-drive leadership.” His newest book is "The Positive Intent Mindset: Exceptional Leadership Through Trust & Accountability". He has been featured on the Harvard Business Review podcast and numerous other media outlets. He has spoken on leadership topics at more than 300 organizations and professional conferences. He lives in San Antonio with his wife and has two grown children in college.
More on Amer and where to find his books here.
In this episode of SpreadLove in Organizations, Naji sits down with Hafedh Haddad, medical director and founder of B2G Life Sciences, to explore a career shaped by curiosity, courage, and meaningful encounters. From medical school in Tunisia to leading pioneering gene therapy clinical trials in France, Hafedh shares how openness to opportunity, rather than rigid planning, guided his journey across academia, biotech, and global clinical development.
Hafedh reflects on the power of encounters in shaping both career and character. He discusses his transition from preclinical research to clinical development, the launch of world-first gene therapy trials in rare diseases, and the founding of his consulting company. Throughout the conversation, he emphasizes the importance of trusting the journey, embracing change, and allowing purpose to evolve through experience.
At its core, this episode is about discovery, of the world, of science, and of oneself. Hafedh offers thoughtful insights on leadership, long-term vision versus adaptability, and the responsibility of working in rare and genetic diseases. It’s a powerful reminder that meaningful impact in healthcare often begins with curiosity and grows through humility, relationships, and a deep commitment to patients.
"Plan the bigger vision. Let the details unfold, and move with them."
MEET OUR GUEST Hafedh Haddad Founder & CEO @ B2G Life Sciences.
Hafedh is a medical doctor and holds a master’s degree in clinical research. He has 20 years of experience in clinical research and clinical development, with – among other specialties - a focus on rare and genetic diseases, oncology and biotherapies.
Early in his career, he has collaborated to a few preclinical research programs in neuromuscular disorders within academic laboratories in Paris. He later joined Généthon, a French biotech specialized in the development of advanced therapies, to set up and lead two world premiere gene therapy clinical trials in rare diseases (AAV based in vivo gene therapy in limb girdle muscular dystrophy type 2C and lentiviral ex vivo gene therapy in Wiskott-Aldrich Syndrome).
He founded B2G Life Sciences, a medical consulting company in 2011, and has since then worked on several clinical research projects and medical affairs missions for several companies including biotechs and big pharma as well as academic institutions in Europe and North Africa.
Hafedh is an entrepreneur in the healthcare sector with both a strategy and operation-focused mindset. He worked on the ideation and development of different projects including staffing and training, biobanks and MedTech projects.
Hafedh graduated from the Faculty of Medicine of Tunis (Tunisia) and University Pierre et Marie Curie (UPMC), Paris (France).
In this episode of Spread Love in Organizations, host Naji Gehchan welcomes Nelson Repenning, Faculty Director of the MIT Leadership Center and Distinguished Professor at MIT Sloan, to explore why so many organizations struggle to turn proven management ideas into real, sustained impact. Drawing on decades of research in system dynamics and organizational design, Nelson unpacks the hidden forces that keep teams trapped in constant firefighting despite the best intentions, smart people, and well-documented best practices.
At the heart of the conversation is Nelson’s work on dynamic work design, the foundation of his new book There’s Got to Be a Better Way. He explains the “capability trap” that pulls leaders toward short-term fixes and away from long-term learning, and introduces five practical principles that help organizations escape this cycle: solving the right problem, structuring work for discovery, connecting the human chain, regulating flow, and using visual management. Through real-world examples, from manufacturing to healthcare and drug development, Nelson shows how small, well-designed changes can unlock surprisingly large gains in performance, engagement, and impact.
The discussion also dives into leadership, healthcare complexity, and the thoughtful use of AI, emphasizing that effective change doesn’t come from top-down initiatives or copying “best practices,” but from leaders who are willing to go see the work, listen deeply, and develop people. Nelson closes with a powerful reminder: great leadership is not about issuing targets or demanding solutions, but about creating the conditions where people can surface problems, learn together, and do meaningful work. A compelling episode for anyone seeking to build more humane, resilient, and effective organizations.
"Most organizations don’t have a strategy problem, they have a flow problem. We take on far too much work, and everything grinds to a halt."
MEET OUR GUEST Nelson Repenning, Faculty Director of the MIT Leadership Center, and the School of Management Distinguished Professor of System Dynamics and Organization Studies at the MIT Sloan School of Management.
Nelson P. Repenning is the Faculty Director of the MIT Leadership Center, and the School of Management Distinguished Professor of System Dynamics and Organization Studies at the MIT Sloan School of Management.
His early work focused on understanding the inability of organizations to leverage well-established tools and practices. He has worked extensively with organizations trying to develop new capabilities in both manufacturing and new product development. Nelson has also studied the failure to use the safety practices that often lead to industrial accidents and has helped investigate several major incidents. This line of research has been recognized with several awards, including best paper recognition from both the California Management Review and the Journal of Product Innovation Management.
Building on his earlier work, Nelson now focuses on developing the theory and practice of Dynamic Work Design—a new approach to designing work that is both effective and engaging— and Dynamic Management Systems, a method for ensuring that day-to-day work is tightly linked to the strategic objectives of the firm. His book (co-authored with Don Kieffer) There Has Got to Be a Better Way describing Dynamic Work Design will be published by Public Affairs in 2025. He is also a partner at ShiftGear Work Design and serves as its chief social scientist.
In 2003, Nelson received the International System Dynamics Society’s Jay Wright Forrester Award, which recognizes the best work in the field in the previous five years. In 2011 he received the Jamieson Prize for Excellence in Teaching. He was recently recognized by Poets and Quants as one of the country's top instructors in executive education.
Nelson is also an avid bike racer and regularly competes in Masters cycling events. He holds a BA in economics from Colorado College and a PhD in operations management and system dynamics from MIT.
In this deeply human and wide-ranging conversation, Giovanni Abbadessa shares the personal journey that shaped his vocation as a physician, scientist, and leader. Growing up in Naples as the son of a prominent hematologist, Giovanni initially resisted medicine, only to discover his calling through lived experiences that blended science with humanity. A transformative humanitarian trip to India, working alongside communities affected by leprosy, profoundly reshaped his understanding of dignity, service, and impact. This experience, combined with early clinical exposure, led him to choose oncology, not just for the science, but for the deep, often spiritual connection with patients and families at life’s most vulnerable moments.
Giovanni traces his evolution from clinician to translational scientist and biotech leader, moving across Italy and the United States, from hospitals to research labs, and ultimately into biotech and pharma. He reflects on pivotal moments, from enrolling patients in landmark oncology trials, to building basic science programs from scratch during his PhD in Philadelphia, to navigating the realities of startup biotech during financial crises. Across academia, small biotech, and large pharma, Giovanni highlights how resilience, curiosity, and an unwavering focus on patients guided his decisions, including when to leave organizations due to poor leadership and when to stay and rebuild through trust, compassion, and shared purpose.
At the heart of the episode is Giovanni’s philosophy of leadership and collaboration. Drawing from decades of nonprofit volunteering, community building, and formal leadership training at Harvard Business School, he emphasizes that “drugs don’t develop drugs. People develop drugs.” He argues that effective collaboration starts with honesty about needs, mutual respect, and trust, and that innovation requires humility, failure, and resilience. With memorable metaphors, from pizza as a catalyst for breaking silos, to leadership as a team sport rather than a solo game, Giovanni offers powerful insights for healthcare leaders on how to spread love in organizations by putting people, connection, and purpose first.
"Drugs do not develop drugs. People develop drugs."
MEET OUR GUEST Dr. Giovanni Abadessa, Chief Medical Officer at ModeX Therapeutics.
Giovanni Abbadessa is a Medical Oncologist and PhD with 23 years drug development experience across academia, small biotech, and pharma. He is a passionate, hands-on, and entrepreneurial leader specializing in oncology, hematology, and rare disease pre-clinical and clinical (Phase 1-3) development. Giovanni has worked on the development of nearly 30 clinical and as many preclinical experimental drugs across eight classes of agents. He is known for a collaborative leadership style, growing and uniting people and science through transparent, results-driven teams. Giovanni has strong strategic, operations, business development and board management experience in both corporate and nonprofit sectors, and has led investor relations, medical affairs, and commercial assessments, enjoying a vast network of academic and industry collaborators.
Presently, as Chief Medical Officer at ModeX Therapeutics, a small biotechnology firm in Weston, MA, Giovanni guides strategy and execution of a variety of clinical programs in oncology and infectious diseases. Additionally, he shapes preclinical oncology research, is responsible for business development and defines corporate strategy with the rest of the company C-Suite, aligning scientific innovation with business objectives while inspiring cross-functional teams.
From 2017 to 2024, Giovanni held a series of senior leadership roles at Sanofi. As Vice President of Oncology Early Development, he was a member of the company’s executive leadership team, oversaw Phase 3 and commercial strategy, built and led an oncology team of 25 who led cross-functional work performed by ~300 people on ~20 early clinical and as many preclinical assets for solid and hematological malignancies and kidney transplant. His portfolio included small molecules, checkpoint inhibitors, ADCs, cytokines, T and NK cell engagers, intratumoral RNA, and cell therapy. He spearheaded strategy and execution for interactions with global Health Authorities, and represented Sanofi with investors, governments, and academic institutions.
Prior to joining Sanofi, Giovanni spent nearly a decade at ArQule, a small biotech company where he advanced to Vice President of Clinical Development, Preclinical Research and Medical Affairs, responsible for development from basic lab research to Phase 3. He worked on MET, AKT, FGFR, Eg5, BRAF, and BTK small molecule inhibitors for cancer and rare pediatric diseases and supported business development, investor relations, people and company strategy alongside the C-Suite and the Board.
Earlier, as Senior Medical Director, Clinical Development at Ziopharm Oncology, a small biotechnology company engaged in research and clinical development of novel chemo-derivatives, Giovanni spearheaded global Phase 1 and 2 clinical trials in solid and hematologic malignancies of three molecules.
Giovanni spent his post-doctoral fellowship at Temple Fox Chase Cancer Center in Philadelphia, PA, leading and mentoring a small team of scientists on in vitro/in vivo gene therapy projects in cancer models and contributing to patient treatment strategy as a Visiting Oncologist. Giovanni began his Oncology career in 2001 in Milan, Italy, at the Istituto Clinico Humanitas as an Oncology Fellow and Sub-Investigator, where he led four Phase 1-3 clinical trials with small molecules and biologics.
Giovanni serves as a Scientific Board member at Biond Biologics, HiFiBiO, as Scientific Committee member at the ESMO-TAT oncology conference, and as nonprofit Board Member at the Comitato Italiani all’Estero, the Scuola Piccoli Italiani di Boston, and the Professionisti Italiani a Boston.
Govanni earned a PhD in Genetic Oncology from Temple University and the University of Siena, Italy, a Clinical Oncology Fellowship from the Istituto Clinico Humanitas in Milan and the University of Genoa, Italy, and an MD summa cum laude et plausum from Federico II Medical School in Naples, Italy. He speaks native Italian, fluent English and Spanish, proficient French. He published over 60 peer-reviewed articles, 120 conference abstracts (20+ presented orally), and gave ~40 conference talks.
In this episode of Spread Love in Organizations, Naji Gehchan welcomes Dr. Basil Upton, executive business director at Eli Lilly, servant leader, and catalyst behind the podcast itself. Basil shares his deeply personal journey from growing up in Maine under the guidance of his grandparents to building a 24-year career in healthcare. With a background in psychology and counseling, Basil reflects on how his desire to help others ultimately led him to pharmaceutical leadership, where purpose, performance, and people intersect.
The conversation dives into Basil’s doctoral research in Educational Leadership and Organizational Innovation, which examined how leadership styles influence employee engagement during periods of both strong and weak performance. His findings challenge conventional thinking: engagement is driven not by shifting leadership styles, but by consistent servant leadership behaviors — active listening, empathy, recognition, and collaboration — especially during challenging times. Unexpectedly, Basil also highlights the powerful role of peer relationships and teamwork, sometimes outweighing even a supervisor’s influence on engagement.
Together, Naji and Basil explore what it truly means to “spread love in organizations.” They challenge leaders to rethink engagement as a core performance metric, not a soft concept, and to recognize the profound impact leadership has on people’s lives beyond work. Basil leaves listeners with a call to action for healthcare leaders everywhere: seek feedback, lead with humility and accountability, embed servant leadership into the DNA of organizations, and intentionally create environments where people — and patients — can truly thrive.
"The impact a leader has on someone’s life beyond work is tremendous."
MEET OUR GUEST Dr. Basil Upton, Executive Business Director at Eli Lilly.
Basil is a purpose driven transformational and servant leader dedicated to helping others reach their potential. He is entering his 24th year with Eli Lilly and Company where he is an executive business director. His teams have consistently exceeded performance expectations for numerous years. Basil’s work accomplishments include business director of the year, Elite coach, Platinum Performer, and recipient of several Coaching Awards. In the summer of 2024, Basil graduated from Marymount University in Arlington, VA with a doctoral degree in Educational Leadership and Organizational Innovation. He studied how a supervisor’s leadership style affects the engagement of pharmaceutical sales professionals during periods of varied sales performance for his dissertation.
In this special episode, part of our collaboration with the Biosciences Lebanese International Network (BIOLINK), I had the joy of welcoming an extraordinary leader whose career sits at the intersection of science, innovation, and purpose: Rania Abou Samra, Vice President and Head of Innovation & R&D for Nestlé Middle East and North Africa. With more than two decades of experience across global roles in nutrition, health science, and product development, Rania brings a rare blend of deep scientific expertise, entrepreneurial spirit, and human-centered leadership. Her mission has remained unwavering since her days studying Nutrition and Dietetics at AUB and later completing a PhD in Obesity and Nutrition at the University of Toronto: advancing nutrition to positively impact lives.
Rania takes us on a moving journey from her childhood in northern Lebanon — where an early fascination with biology sparked her dream of fighting malnutrition — to her unexpected leap from academia into the global food industry. She shares how Nestlé’s scale allows her teams to deliver meaningful change, from fortifying foods in underserved regions to designing science-based innovations rooted in prevention rather than treatment. We dive into the evolving landscape of nutrition, from the rise of GLP-1 therapies to the growing attention on ultra-processed foods, and Rania illuminates how food companies can play a critical role in helping people lose weight safely, protect muscle mass, and maintain overall health in a world where these medications are becoming mainstream.
We also explore Rania’s leadership journey across cultures — from Lebanon to Switzerland, the U.S., and now Dubai. She speaks candidly about navigating emotional expression, resilience shaped by her upbringing, and the balancing act of staying true to her identity while adapting to global environments. Her reflections on cultural agility, authenticity, and the lessons she’s carried with her across continents offer a powerful reminder of what it means to lead with purpose. Rania’s story is one of passion, courage, and an unshakeable belief in the power of science to improve lives — and it’s truly inspiring to hear how she continues to spread impact through innovation in nutrition.
"Innovation without impact is meaningless; the goal is to create solutions that truly improve lives."
MEET OUR GUEST Rania Abou Samra, Vice President and Head of Innovation & R&D for Nestlé Middle East and North Africa.
Rania Abou Samra has served as the Vice President and Head of Innovation and Research & Development at Nestlé Middle East and North Africa since April 2025. With over 20 years of experience in Nutrition and R&D, she has a strong technical and scientific background that drives innovation forward.
Prior to her current role, Rania assumed the position of Global Head of Product & Technology Development for Nestlé Health Science in January 2022, following her tenure as Vice President of Research and Development at the Vital Proteins business.
Rania's professional journey includes her previous roles as Global Director of Science and Technology at Nestlé Health Science and Global R&D Lead for Consumer Care. Across various Nestlé research centers, she has lent her expertise to diverse sectors as well as her entrepreneurial spirit, translating scientific and technical insights into breakthrough innovations for both patients and consumers.
She earned both her Bachelor's and Master's degrees in Nutrition and Dietetics from the American University of Beirut, followed by a PhD in Obesity and Nutrition from the University of Toronto.
Rania aligns her mission with her passion to advance nutrition and positively impact lives through science. Her unwavering commitment to making the benefits of nutrition accessible to all remains a driving force in her personal and professional pursuits.
More Episode with BIOLINKERS can be found here.
In this inspiring episode of SpreadLove in Organizations, in partnership with the Termeer Institute, host Naji Gehchan welcomes Charlene Son Rigby, CEO of Global Genes, who shares the deeply personal journey that brought her into the rare disease space. After years of searching for a diagnosis, her daughter was found to have STXBP1, a rare neurodevelopmental disorder. That life-altering moment led Charlene to co-found the STXBP1 Foundation, driven by the urgent need to accelerate research and give families like hers a path toward hope. Her story bridges science, advocacy, and parenthood—reshaping her career and purpose.
Charlene discusses how this experience led her from the tech and genomics industry to nonprofit leadership, first with RareX and now with Global Genes. She highlights the organization’s mission: to empower rare disease communities through support, education, and research. Recognizing that much of early progress in rare diseases now begins with patients themselves, Charlene explains the rise of the “next-generation advocate”—families who build data, mobilize researchers, and initiate therapeutic development even in ultra-rare conditions. The merger of RareX and Global Genes was designed to strengthen this ecosystem and give advocates the tools they need to drive discovery.
Looking ahead, Charlene is optimistic about the future of therapeutic development, especially as genetic tools and platform approaches open the door to faster, more scalable progress. Yet challenges remain - particularly the economic and regulatory barriers that hinder early-stage rare disease research. She calls for continued collaboration, smarter infrastructure, and systems designed to make innovation accessible to even the smallest patient communities. Above all, Charlene emphasizes leadership rooted in clarity, conviction, and hope - standing tall in what matters as we work toward cures for all.
"Really focusing on what matters, and standing tall in that, is so important."
MEET OUR GUESTS Charlene Son Rigby, CEO of Global Genes.
Charlene Son Rigby is Chief Executive Officer of Global Genes. Charlene has spent her career building organizations at the intersection of data, technology, and life sciences. Charlene led the merger between Global Genes and RARE-X, a health technology nonprofit. She was previously Chief Business Officer at Fabric Genomics and held executive roles at enterprise software and genomics companies, including Oracle and Doubletwist. She started her career in neuroscience research at Roche. When Charlene’s daughter was diagnosed with a rare genetic disease, she co-founded the STXBP1 Foundation. She is committed to finding a cure for her daughter’s disorder. Charlene’s unplanned connection between her personal life and profession has helped push forward the search for a cure for her daughter and kids like her, and given her work deeper meaning. Charlene is a Termeer Scholar. She holds a B.A. in Human Biology from Stanford University and an M.B.A. from the Haas School of Business at U.C. Berkeley.
More episodes with Termeer Institute can be found here, or on your favorite Podcast App.
In this inspiring conversation, Naji welcomes Sekhar Naik, a serial entrepreneur, aviation enthusiast, long-distance runner, and community builder who believes deeply in authentic human connection. Sekhar shares his remarkable journey from growing up in a small town in South India to navigating the bustling streets of Mumbai, exploring opportunities in Dubai, and finally coming to the United States for his MBA. His early experiences — marked by hustle, curiosity, and reinvention — shaped his path toward entrepreneurship and taught him the power of storytelling and adaptability.
Sekhar reflects on how his values around ethical and empathetic growth crystallized later in life, especially after experiencing the culture of innovation and fairness in the U.S. He credits his father’s principled influence, financial insecurities in childhood, and the challenges he witnessed in India’s textile industry as key drivers behind his desire to control his own destiny. These experiences informed his belief in taking thoughtful risks and “picking where to put your hard work,” a philosophy that guided him from turning down a secure corporate job to founding his own company as an immigrant without a safety net.
Today, Sekhar leads MResult, a technology consulting company that grew from a one-person operation into a global firm of over 1,000 employees — with no sales team, scaling entirely through trust, word of mouth, and excellence. He shares how the company evolved from data and analytics into cloud, digital, and AI/ML solutions, always staying agile and grounded in deep client relationships. At the heart of MResult’s success is Sekhar’s unwavering commitment to people-to-people connection—an ethos reflected in the company’s culture, his philanthropic work, and his belief that authentic relationships and purpose-driven innovation are the true engines of enduring impact.
"You have to pick where you put your hard work — success isn’t just effort, it’s choosing the right place to apply it."
MEET OUR GUESTS Sekhar Naik, Founder and CEO at MResult.
Sekhar Naik is a serial entrepreneur, business leader, aviation enthusiast, long-distance runner, and above all a community builder who believes in the innate power of authentic people-to-people connections. He is the recipient of Karnataka Rajyotsava Award, one of highest civilian honors bestowed by the Government of Karnataka, India.As the founder of MResult, Sekhar has built a foundation of ethical and empathetic commercial growth by serving as a trusted advisor to a select group of respected global brands. His mantra of success is enabling and empowering people to take decisions and lead with confidence. His belief in the capability of people goes beyond the traditional yardstick of qualifications and expertise to intent and hunger to do more, do better. This is reflected in a culture of customer excellence. Sekhar is also a co-founder and investor in a variety of startups, providing them with both mentoring as well as financial support.In his commitment to pay it forward he is a major donor of YMCA Naik Family Branch in Mystic, Connecticut. An accomplished commercial pilot with Instrument, and Jet Type Ratings, Sekhar is available to clients wherever they might be. When not flying or mentoring the MResult team, Sekhar is passionate about running and has completed both the New York and Philadelphia marathons. He is a tech enthusiast constantly exploring new frontiers. But beyond this all, he is a storyteller, a lifelong learner, and a believer in investing in relationships that transcend transactional limits.Sekhar is committed to academic partnerships that explore leading edge innovation and investments in cutting edge technologies around Gen AI and Biotechnology companies. On the personal front, he is very grateful for his family and the privilege of leading a high performing team solving some of the industry’s most complex challenges.
In this inspiring episode of Spread Love in Organizations, Naji Gehchan welcomes Vanessa Almendro Navarro, Vice President and Head of Science and Technology Innovation at Danaher. Vanessa shares her powerful personal story — from growing up in Spain as the first in her family to attend college, to witnessing cancer’s impact on her loved ones, and ultimately dedicating her career to driving innovation in oncology and biotechnology. Her journey from academic research at Dana-Farber to leading enterprise innovation at Danaher reflects her deep commitment to transforming ideas into tangible impact for patients.
Vanessa discusses how she bridges AI-enabled R&D, commercialization, and innovation to accelerate drug discovery and development. She emphasizes the importance of focusing innovation on solving real problems, being pragmatic rather than chasing the “next shiny thing,” and ensuring that technologies meaningfully advance patient outcomes. She sees the convergence of AI, biotechnology, and robotics as a pivotal moment — an “innovation revolution” — that could redefine how we discover and deliver healthcare solutions.
Reflecting on her leadership journey, Vanessa highlights humility, resilience, and collaboration as essential traits for leaders in healthcare. Her guiding philosophy — “Don’t give up; we’ll figure it out” — captures her approach to overcoming challenges and inspiring others. Vanessa also shares her work with the Brain Tumor Investment Fund, where she supports translating early research into new therapies for patients. She calls on leaders to embrace this era of possibility with focus, courage, and humanity, because, as she reminds us, “Patients are not waiting.”
"Don’t tell me no, tell me how. There’s always an opportunity to move forward."
MEET OUR GUESTS Vanessa Almendro Navarro, Vice President, Head of Science & Technology Innovation at Danaher Corporation.
Vanessa Almendro Navarro, PhD, MBA, is a life sciences executive who builds at theintersection of innovation, AI-enabled R&D, and commercialization. As Vice President andHead of Science & Technology Innovation at Danaher, she leads enterprise innovation andoperating-model modernization across a global portfolio. She designed and scaled the Danaher Beacon distributed R&D program with leading academic partners, launched the Danaher Nexus intrapreneurship pipeline, established the Danaher Antibody Capability Center, and created the Danaher Summits to connect operating companies with top domain expertise.
Previously, Vanessa co-founded and led the Brain Tumor Investment Fund; served as Head ofStrategy & External Innovation at Eisai and Head of Strategy & Operations at RepertoireImmune Medicines; and held scientific and commercial roles at Vertex. Earlier in her career, she was a research fellow at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute/Harvard Medical School. She holds a PhD in Biochemistry & Molecular Biology (University of Barcelona) and an Executive MBA (MIT).
Her expertise spans venture origination, IP strategy, translational development, partnerships and BD, and capability building in diagnostics and therapeutics. She serves on the boards of the Brain Tumor Investment Fund and MIT Sandbox and is a member of the ARM CEO Advisory Council.
In this special episode of Spread Love in Organizations, Naji sits down with Rose Saia, Executive Director of the Centre Street Food Pantry, to explore the deep connection between food, health, and dignity. Rose shares her powerful personal story — from growing up food insecure in South Boston to leading a community-driven food relief organization that now serves six Greater Boston communities.
Drawing from her lived experience and leadership through the pandemic, Rose reflects on transforming Centre Street’s model to ensure equitable, dignified access to nutritious food for families in need. She discusses how food insecurity — often hidden even in affluent areas — is not only a social issue but also a public health crisis that intersects with housing, income, and healthcare access.
Rose and Naji explore what leadership looks like in times of crisis, how communities can mobilize around empathy and purpose, and why solving hunger requires partnerships across health systems, local organizations, and individuals. Despite the challenges, Rose’s message is one of resilience and hope: our shared humanity drives us to help one another—and through food, we can touch lives and health in the most fundamental way.
"When everything said we couldn’t, our community proved we can."
MEET OUR GUESTS Rose Saia, Executive Director at Centre Street Food Pantry.
Rose Saia Executive Director of Centre Street Food Pantry. Rose joined Centre Street in 2019 as a part-time Pantry Manager. When the pandemic began, she pivoted the operation to a new program and distribution model to address the exponential increase in food insecurity. She became Executive Director in 2021. Prior to joining Centre Street, she was Pantry Director for Open Table, a Metrowest regional grocery and meals agency. Her experience in nonprofit organizations includes being a member of the board of directors and marketing chair for The Capital Network and WEST (Women Entrepreneurs in Science and Technology), and as a CEO coach for women leading high-growth businesses at The Commonwealth Institute. Her professional career is anchored in high technology, where she was a leader of technical, product marketing, and business development teams for startups and global providers. She was the CEO and co-founder of a network security consulting and product company that was acquired by Juniper Networks. Rose is also a published writer and professional true-life storyteller who has appeared on local stages and on the national television series, “Stories from the Stage.”
Visit and help Centre Street Food Pantry.
Donate here.
In this episode of SpreadLove in Organizations, Naji is joined by Jean-Noël Pellegrin and Alain Eudaric, two veteran leaders in biotech and pharma, to discuss their new book, The Thriving Biopharma Business. With decades of experience shaping strategy, finance, and innovation across global markets, they share how purpose, clarity, and collaboration fuel success in one of the world’s most complex industries. Both guests describe their journeys — from engineering, finance, and corporate leadership at major companies like Sanofi — to helping biotech and pharma leaders align science, strategy, and market needs. Their mission through their book is clear: to help biotech innovators turn groundbreaking ideas into real-world impact.
Jean-Noël and Alain dive into the lessons behind The Thriving Biopharma Business, highlighting key principles that drive sustainable growth in life sciences. They explore how companies like Moderna and Vertex Pharmaceuticals turned uncertainty into opportunity through bold strategy, storytelling, and disciplined leadership. The discussion brings to life their concept of integrative leadership — a model that connects perspectives across R&D, regulatory, finance, and commercial teams to accelerate decision-making and value creation. Through vivid examples of M&A integration and strategic partnerships, they illustrate how restraint, empathy, and emotional intelligence often determine whether innovation thrives or stalls in complex corporate settings.
The conversation closes on the human side of biotech leadership — purpose, resilience, and love. The authors reflect on how storytelling and empathy are as crucial as data in convincing investors, partners, and patients to believe in a vision. They emphasize that thriving in biotech requires relentless curiosity, business acumen, and the courage to lead with compassion. As Jean-Noël and Alain put it, spreading love in organizations means creating environments where collaboration, integrity, and shared purpose drive breakthroughs that truly change lives.
"Great outcomes demand more than science — they require decisive leadership.” – Alain Eudaric
“Integrative leadership turns transactions into true partnerships built on trust.” – Jean-Noël Pellegrin
MEET OUR GUESTS Alain Eudaric, President Idea Pathways.
MEET OUR GUESTS Jean-Noël Pellegrin, Sr Director Valuation and Finance Support to Business Development, M&A at Sanofi.
Alain Eudaric brings over 30 years of global expertise in biopharma, life sciences, and consulting, specializing in strategy, M&A, alliances, and innovation-led growth. He has held leadership roles at Kearney, Thermo Fisher Scientific, and Parexel International, driving transformative programs and business success. As President of Idea Pathways, Alain focuses on driving operational excellence and fostering innovative growth strategies for the biopharma industry. He is an alum from Harvard Medical School, Johns Hopkins University, MIT, Purdue University, and Ecole Centrale de Lille with advanced degrees in Biotech, Business, Science, and Engineering.
Jean-Noël Pellegrin has over 15 years of expertise in M&A and business development, with a proven track record of contributing to several hundred transactions. He began his career at EY before most recently joining Sanofi, where he has spent the last 20 years in France and the United States. His 30 years of combined experience across global public company finance, audit, accounting, and strategic transactions make him a trusted expert in valuing life sciences assets and structuring complex deals. He is an alum of Babson College and Sciences Po, with advanced degrees in Business and Finance.
Find their book here!
In this special episode of SpreadLove in Organizations, in partnership with the Boston Biotechnology Summit, Naji Gehchan welcomes Benjamin Hadida, co-founder and CEO of Exeliom Biosciences, a French clinical-stage biotech company pioneering microbiome-based immunomodulation therapies. Benjamin shares his inspiring journey from studying finance and molecular biology to creating his “dream job” — building a biotech company developing novel drugs from scratch. Motivated by the strong scientific potential in France and the desire to bridge academia with industry, he co-founded Exeliom to transform promising academic discoveries into real-world treatments. Under his leadership, Exeliom has raised $29 million to advance EXL01, a first-in-class therapy targeting the innate immune system, now in Phase 2 trials for oncology, inflammatory bowel disease, and infectious diseases.
Benjamin reflects on the early challenges of founding a biotech without a predefined roadmap, emphasizing the value of curiosity, humility, and adaptability. With no regulatory precedent or traditional C-suite structure, his team built a unique organization focused entirely on what their lead program needed to reach the clinic — not on personal titles or egos. This disciplined focus, coupled with clear alignment among co-founders and scientific advisors, allowed Exeliom to move an academic concept into advanced clinical trials. He highlights one key leadership lesson for biotech founders: always ask, “What does the program need?” — a mindset that drives both strategic clarity and organizational culture, ensuring every decision serves the science and the patients it aims to help.
Benjamin also dives into the science behind Exeliom’s groundbreaking approach. Rather than targeting a molecule, their innovation emerged from clinical observations linking patient responses to immunotherapy with gut microbiome composition. Exeliom’s therapy leverages a specific bacterial strain, Faecalibacterium prausnitzii, to modulate macrophages via the innate immune receptor NOD2 — effectively enhancing immune responses depending on disease context. Looking ahead, Benjamin sees EXL01 as an add-on immunomodulator that could boost responses to checkpoint inhibitors or anti-TNF treatments. His biggest challenge now is educating pharma partners about the real potential of microbiome-based therapies, often misunderstood after past industry missteps.
"Put yourself behind others, not in front of them… You cannot be successful without love."
MEET OUR GUESTS Benjamin Hadida, Co-Founder & CEO of Exeliom Biosciences.
Benjamin Hadida is co-founder of Exeliom Biosciences, a clinical-stage biotech company founded in 2016 in France, winner of the Biotech Summit Pitch this year. With experience spanning investment banking, venture capital, regulatory affairs, biotech operations, and applied research, Benjamin brings a multidisciplinary perspective to biotech innovation. He holds master’s degrees in Management from ESSEC Business School, and Molecular and Cellular Biology from Sorbonne. Under his leadership, Exeliom has raised $29 million to develop EXL01, a groundbreaking microbiome-based immunomodulator targeting the innate immune system. This first-in-class therapy is now in Phase 2 trials for Immuno-oncology, Inflammatory Bowel Diseases and Infectious Diseases.
In this inspiring episode of SpreadLove in Organizations, in partnership with the Termeer Institute, host Naji Gehchan welcomes Dr. Fernando Vieira, CEO and Chief Scientific Officer of the ALS Therapy Development Institute (ALS TDI). A physician-scientist and engineer, Fernando shares his deeply personal journey from aspiring inventor to leading one of the world’s foremost non-profit biotechs dedicated to ALS. His passion stems from the loss of his close friend to the disease, which shaped his life’s mission - to translate scientific discovery into real treatments for people living with ALS.
Fernando offers an inside look into the unique non-profit biotech model at ALS TDI -an organization that combines scientific rigor with mission-driven purpose. With integrated research programs spanning cell biology, pharmacology, and clinical data, ALS TDI develops and validates therapeutic targets, often spinning off intellectual property to for-profit partners to advance drug development. Fernando highlights the advantages of staying focused on a single disease area, building institutional knowledge, maintaining long-term commitment, and ensuring every effort serves the ALS community. He also explores the promise and challenge of rare disease research, emphasizing the complexity and need for multiple targeted therapies to address ALS’s many subtypes.
Looking ahead, Fernando expresses optimism about emerging technologies, AI applications, and omics data transforming ALS research. From digital biomarkers and machine learning to novel therapeutic modalities, he believes the field is entering a new era of precision and hope. Reflecting on leadership, he defines it as servant leadership: serving the mission and his team with empathy and humility. As a recent Termeer Fellow, he praises the Foundation for fostering mentorship and connection among healthcare innovators.
"Think about the people that you're trying to serve, and meet them where they are. Understand their needs, and let that guide everything you do."
MEET OUR GUESTS Fernando Vieira, CEO and CSO at ALS Therapy Development Institute, Termeer Institute Fellow.
Fernando Vieira has over 20 years of dedication to advancing ALS research and treatment development at the ALS Therapy Development Institute (ALS TDI), a non-profit biotech company. Dr. Vieira has progressed through various leadership roles at ALS TDI, culminating in his current positions as Chief Executive Officer and Chief Scientific Officer. He leads a team of over 25 researchers, overseeing target discovery, drug discovery, biomarker development, and translational ALS research.
Having lost his closest friend to ALS, Fernando is deeply committed to translating scientific discoveries into clinical applications that benefit people with ALS. Fernando’s work integrates preclinical pharmacology, multi-omics, and digital outcome measures, driving the preclinical validation of multiple drugs, including tegoprubart, now in clinical development for ALS, along with kidney transplant. He has worked to establish ALS TDI as a hub for innovative ALS research infrastructure, fostering collaborations to enhance disease monitoring and therapeutic outcomes.
Fernando is a recognized leader in ALS research, affirmed by his roles on the Research Committee of ALS ONE and the International Alliance of ALS/MND Associations Research Directors Forum. He holds multiple patents for novel therapeutic approaches for ALS and has contributed to publications in multiple high impact journals such as Nature Communications, Nature Genetics, and Science Translational Medicine. Fernando earned a degree in biological engineering from the University of Florida and his MD from Harvard Medical School. Outside of his professional life, Dr. Vieira is a dedicated father to a high school-aged son in Newton. He actively participates in his son's activities with a local Scouting America troop. In his free time, he enjoys running, hiking, and playing basketball.
In this special episode of SpreadLove in Organizations, produced in partnership with the MIT Club of Boston BioSummit, Naji Gehchan welcomes Dimitrios Skaltsas, CEO and co-founder of Intelligencia AI. Founded in 2017, Intelligencia is a pioneer in applying artificial intelligence, data science, and biomedical expertise to transform decision-making in pharmaceutical R&D. Dimitrios shares his remarkable journey from studying law in Greece to leading one of the most innovative companies in healthcare AI. Inspired by his roots and driven by a deep sense of purpose, he reflects on the pivotal moments that shaped his career — from consulting at McKinsey to discovering a passion for innovation in life sciences — and how love, family, and giving back have guided his mission.
Dimitrios dives into the origins of Intelligencia AI and the crucial problem it set out to solve: improving R&D productivity and redefining how risk is assessed in drug development. By building machine learning models to predict the probability of clinical success, Intelligencia provides pharmaceutical companies with a robust decision-support tool, helping them prioritize programs, optimize portfolios, and ultimately bring new therapies to patients more effectively. Dimitrios emphasizes that AI should complement, not replace, human judgment, serving as a powerful tool to support intuition with data-driven insights. As the company continues to grow, it is expanding into new therapeutic areas, geographies, and functionalities, with a focus on making drug development smarter, faster, and more predictive.
The conversation also explores the human side of leadership and innovation. Dimitrios shares how his love of painting — from abstract canvases to portraits of people he knows - mirrors his leadership philosophy: balancing big-picture creativity with deep human connection. He defines leadership as a responsibility to serve others and sees clinical trials as both a blessing and a challenge; essential for patient safety but ripe for innovation. On AI, he is optimistic yet cautious, recognizing its transformative potential alongside its risks if not guided by ethics and discipline. This episode offers a rich exploration of purpose-driven leadership, the intersection of art and science, and the future of AI in reshaping how life-changing medicines are discovered and developed.
"AI is a huge opportunity for life sciences, but without ethics, it can mislead us."
MEET OUR GUESTS Ditrios Skaltsas Co-Founder & CEO, Intelligencia AI.
As the CEO and co-founder of Intelligencia AI™, Dimitrios Skaltsas drives the AI-driven technology organization's business and investment growth strategy while overseeing critical functional areas of the multidisciplinary global team. Founded in 2017, Intelligencia AI leads the way in leveraging proprietary data, biomedical expertise and artificial intelligence (AI) with its patented technology to address significant challenges in the pharmaceutical industry. These challenges include lengthy drug development timelines, excessive costs, and unsustainable return on investment (ROI). Its suite of AI-powered solutions delivers actionable insights crucial in mitigating risks and enhancing decision-making associated with drug development by providing an accurate, unbiased assessment of a drug’s probability of success.
In 2024, the company received a U.S. patent for its accurate and transparent probability of drug success assessments. It also earned its inaugural spots on the Inc. Regional (Northeast) and Inc. 5000 for the first time. The Healthcare Technology Report recognized it as one of the Top 100 Healthcare Technology Companies. In 2021, the company completed its Series A funding and was named one of Forbes's Top AI Companies to Watch. During this time, Dimitrios played a pivotal role in establishing a strategic partnership with ZS, a global professional services company. Before tapping into his entrepreneurial spirit and co-founding Intelligencia AI, Dimitrios spent over a decade in various leadership roles within the healthcare and life sciences sectors.
He holds an MBA from INSEAD and a law degree from University College London (UCL) and the University of Athens. In his leisure time, you can find him painting or enjoying the Greek countryside.
In this episode of SpreadLove in Organizations, I am joined once again by my longtime friend and colleague, John Bamforth, to celebrate the launch of his new book Race to Innovation. John’s remarkable journey has taken him from his roots in Wigan, England, to building global brands at Eli Lilly, and most recently, leading the Eshelman Institute for Innovation at UNC-Chapel Hill. He was my very first guest when I started this podcast four years ago, and it’s a joy to welcome him back as we reflect on his career, his growth, and the bold ideas he is now championing.
John shares the story behind Race to Innovation, which highlights the often-overlooked history of innovation and entrepreneurship in marginalized communities, particularly African American communities. The book blends untold stories of past trailblazers with interviews of today’s innovators, all grounded in the belief that unlocking potential in underrepresented groups creates value for all of us. This is not a zero-sum game; rather, encouraging diversity of thought and entrepreneurship helps societies thrive together.
Our conversation goes beyond the book, touching on the meaning of innovation, the intentionality required to build diverse, trusting teams, and the essential role of purpose in uniting people around bold goals. John’s insights remind us of the power of assuming potential in every individual and of leading with genuine care for one another. His vision is a hopeful call to see difference not as division but as a force for solving the world’s most pressing challenges - together.
"Innovation starts with assuming potential in every individual - and unlocking it benefits us all."
MEET OUR GUESTS John P Bamforth, independent Director for Humacyte and a member of the commercialization committee.
Dr John Bamforth PhD is an independent director for Humacyte Inc (NASDAQ: HUMA) and a member of the commercialization committee. In addition, he has served on the Boards of the Structural Genomics Consortium (https://www.thesgc.org) and READDI (https://readdi.org). On the READDI Board, John recruited 4 independent Board members including Sen Richard Burr and Lydia Ogden PhD (JNJ) and he chairs the compensation committee. He is an advisor to several privately owned biotech and healthcare companies and is an active investor. John is co-founder of the B and M Impact Foundation (BMimpact.org) which is focused on creating wealth and health in disadvantaged communities.
John had a 30-year career at Eli Lilly and Company culminating in the Chief Marketing Officer (CMO) role from 2016 to his retirement in 2018. He was also CMO of Lilly's $10B US operation from 2012-2016. Over his career at Lilly John was known for building highly engaged teams and launching multiple brands across the globe. Probably, his best-known success was the building of Cialis globally, the $2B a year blockbuster brand. On his retirement from Lilly, John was hired to lead Eshelman Innovation at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, an institute that was founded by a $100M gift, the largest gift in UNC's history. The institute leverages industry practices and the University's $1.5B research enterprise to develop novel therapeutics alongside digital health technologies. He stepped down from the role in 2025 after 6 years to focus on his board work and philanthropic endeavors.
John has a pharmacy degree and PhD from his education in the United Kingdom. Pharmavoice named John one of Pharma's top 100 'Inspirational Leaders' in 2007 and his alma mater, Aston University, awarded him an Honorary Doctorate for service to the Pharma Industry in 2012. John lives in Chapel Hill, North Carolina with his wife Sue, and has two adult children, Thomas and Rebecca.
More about the Book on this link!
In this special episode of SpreadLove in Organizations, I had the honor of hosting Dr. François Nader and Khalil Barrage, the visionary co-founders of BioLink. This New York–based nonprofit is on a mission to connect biosciences professionals of Lebanese origin around the world, while building a sustainable life sciences ecosystem in Lebanon. François shared his inspiring journey from physician in Lebanon to global biotech leader, including turning around NPS Pharma before its $5B acquisition by Shire. Khalil reflected on his path from Lebanon to becoming one of the most active biotech investors through The Invus Group, with landmark investments in companies such as Moderna.
Both leaders opened up about the origins of BioLink, which were born out of tragedy but fueled by hope. In the aftermath of the Beirut port explosion, they witnessed the strength and generosity of the Lebanese diaspora in the life sciences community. This moment of crisis revealed an incredible network of Lebanese talent across the industry and sparked the idea to create a global platform. BioLink was established not only to bring these leaders together, but also to lay the foundation for a life sciences economy in Lebanon that can create opportunities for the next generation.
Throughout our conversation, François and Khalil emphasized values of vision, resilience, and credibility in leadership. They reminded us that true leadership shines in times of crisis, and that success in biotech requires grit, integrity, and long-term commitment. Above all, they shared a dream: to harness the collective power of Lebanese professionals worldwide to contribute back to Lebanon and build something enduring. This episode is a testament to purpose-driven leadership, collaboration, and the belief that together, we can inspire change.
"Leaders show the most leadership during a crisis." -François Nader"In biotech, there are no shortcuts — integrity and the right team matter.” - Khalil Barrage
MEET OUR GUESTS Francois Nader chairman of GEn1E Lifesciences, and board director of Moderna and Ring Therapeutics.
MEET OUR GUESTS Khalil Barrage Managing Director at The Invus Group.
This is a special episode, the first of a series in partnership with Biosciences Lebanese International Network – BioLink. This New York-based non-profit is on a mission to build a global community of professionals in biosciences of Lebanese origin, like me, and it turns out, there’s quite a few of us. Most interestingly, it has set a bold vision, which is to catalyze a life sciences ecosystem in Lebanon by working with local talent and academic centers, with the support of the Lebanese diaspora community. This is an ambitious goal, but BioLink.org’s founders Dr. Francois Nader and Khalil Barrage are some of the most accomplished people in the industry, and if anyone can pull it off, they can. I’m thrilled to have them with me today!
Francois is a pharma veteran who sits on the board of several biopharma companies. He is chairman of GEn1E Lifesciences, and a board director of Moderna and Ring Therapeutics, as well as a senior advisor to Blackstone Life Sciences. Francois became well known within the industry, when he took the helm of NPS Pharma in 2006. The company was then on the verge of insolvency. Francois turned it around and sold it less than a decade later for more than $5 billion to Shire.
Khalil is a managing director at The Invus Group, a New York-based global investment firm. He established the Public Equity Group which invests in emerging innovative biotech companies, and co-manages private biotech investments, making Invus one of the most active investors in biotech, according to PitchBook. Khalil also sits on the board of several biotech companies, including ElevateBio, Sensorion, Onxeo, Protagenic Therapeutics, and Orthobond.
In this episode of Spread Love in Organizations, Naji Gehchan had the pleasure of hosting Catharine Smith, the inaugural Executive Director of the Termeer Institute. The Institute honors the legacy of former Genzyme CEO Henri Termeer by supporting biotech leaders who are driven by patient impact. Catherine shared her powerful journey, from growing up with limited access to healthcare, to leading initiatives at the Clinton Foundation and Harvard, and now shaping a movement that empowers early-stage biotech CEOs to tackle some of healthcare’s biggest challenges. Her personal story, rooted in seeing healthcare as a human right, set the stage for our inspiring conversation.
Throughout our discussion, Catherine highlighted the importance of leadership as a catalyst for systemic change. Drawing from her experience in hospital medicine, primary care, and crisis response, she emphasized that effective leadership goes beyond technical expertise —it’s about training, mentoring, and empowering people to drive meaningful improvements in patient care. At the Tamir Foundation, this philosophy translates into supporting biotech founders not only with resources and technical skills, but also with values-aligned networks, mentorship, and leadership development tailored to their journeys.
Catherine also shared her perspective on the future of biotech as a powerful lever for change in healthcare. From the promise of rare disease therapies to the growing energy in women’s health, she stressed how science and innovation must be matched with responsibility, equity, and human-centered leadership. For her, the “human variable” is the most crucial factor in whether breakthroughs succeed in transforming lives. As we closed, Catherine reminded healthcare leaders to hold onto their “why,” seek partnerships, and focus on solving big problems together. It was a conversation full of hope, responsibility, and a call to action for leaders across healthcare and biotech.
"Biotech can be a lever to change healthcare."
MEET OUR GUEST Catharine Smith, Executive Director of the Termeer Institute.
Catharine Smith serves as inaugural Executive Director of the Termeer Institute (Former Termeer Foundation), which carries on the bold legacy of former Genzyme CEO Henri Termeer, who was committed to mentoring emerging leaders and whose dedication to patients resulted in groundbreaking treatments for rare diseases. The Termeer Foundation understands that bringing new treatments to patients is grueling work with a low probability of success and believes we can improve these odds by positively impacting the human variables in healthcare. By supporting biotech leaders, the Foundation seeks to increase the probability of creating cures and solving healthcare’s greatest challenges.
Prior to the Termeer Foundation, Catharine served as the CEO of the Clinton Health Matters Initiative at the Clinton Foundation where she led a team focused on stigma reduction and overdose prevention related to the opioid epidemic. Before that role, Catharine was the Executive Director of the Harvard Center for Primary Care where she led business development, strategy, and operations for a think-tank focused on improving value-based, patient-centered care.
Catharine holds a master’s degree in business administration from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and a graduate degree in social science research from the University of Chicago.
In this episode, Naji Gehchan welcomes Selin Kurnaz, CEO and co-founder of Massive Bio, a health tech company using AI and data-driven solutions to expand access to cancer clinical trials. Selin shares her personal journey from a structured career in engineering and private equity to founding Massive Bio after her family’s experience with cancer. What started as a side project quickly became her full-time mission, as she realized the immense challenges and dedication required to drive change in healthcare. Since 2015, she has led Massive Bio to impact over 160,000 patients worldwide, with a focus on underserved communities and equitable access to clinical trials.
Selin highlights the importance of applying engineering principles to clinical operations, particularly in solving the long-standing challenge of patient recruitment in oncology trials. By combining systematic problem-solving with regulatory knowledge, Massive Bio addresses inefficiencies across the patient enrollment journey—identification, pre-screening, and last-mile enrollment. She explains how AI enables scalability, reducing the time it takes to match patients with clinical trials from months to minutes. This approach not only empowers patients to advocate for themselves but also helps physicians and pharma companies accelerate drug development, creating both individual and population-level impact.
Discussing leadership and growth, Selin emphasizes resilience, teamwork, and the importance of early adopters in driving healthcare innovation. She speaks candidly about the challenges women face in senior roles within health tech and the need for true meritocracy. At Massive Bio, she fosters a flat, mission-driven culture where every team member feels empowered and connected to the purpose of improving patients’ lives. Her closing advice to healthcare leaders is to remain resilient, embrace humility, and stay grounded—focusing on what truly matters: health, team, and impact.
"I’m not seeking fairness in life, but success in the unfairness of life."
MEET OUR GUEST Selin Kurnaz, CEO and co-founder of Massive Bio, a health tech company improving access to cancer clinical trials through AI and data-driven solutions.
Selin Kurnaz is the CEO and co-founder of Massive Bio, a health tech company improving access to cancer clinical trials through AI and data-driven solutions. She holds a PhD in Mechanical Engineering and brings over a decade of experience in life sciences strategy and operations. Inspired by her family’s cancer journey, Selin launched Massive Bio in 2015 to make cutting-edge treatments more accessible, particularly in underserved communities. Under her leadership, the company has onboarded over 160,000 patients and built a global network of sites, partners, and advocates. Selin is also a recognized voice for women in tech and digital health innovation.
About Massive Bio:Massive Bio is a healthcare technology company using AI to match cancer and rare disease patients with clinical trials and optimize drug use for better outcomes. Founded to address the barriers patients face in accessing advanced treatments, the platform simplifies and personalizes the clinical trial journey. With over 160,000 patients onboarded and partnerships with top pharma companies across 17 countries, Massive Bio is transforming oncology care. Its solutions reduce inefficiencies, accelerate drug development, and improve treatment access globally. The company is now expanding beyond trial matching into broader oncology services to become a leading data-driven cancer care platform.
In this episode of Spread Love in Organizations, Naji Gehchan welcomes Christy Fernandez-Cull, CEO of DaVinci Wearables and a trailblazer in tech and health innovation. Christy shares her inspiring journey from childhood curiosity — designing a cereal dispenser to let her hardworking parents sleep in — to leading groundbreaking work at companies like Apple, Waymo, and Google. With a PhD from Duke and an MBA from MIT, Christy blends deep technical expertise with visionary leadership, always guided by a moral compass instilled by her family and a relentless curiosity about the world.
Christy introduces her current venture, DaVinci Wearables, with the bold ambition of becoming the “body API for better health.” She describes a future where garments not only clothe us but also provide real-time biometric insights, especially focused on women’s health, a historically underserved field. With partnerships across universities and health systems, DaVinci is building a wearable ecosystem that tracks hydration, hormones, nutrition, and physical activity, empowering users through a smart companion app that educates and nudges healthier habits. Their unique platform blends data, personalized coaching, and community, aiming to democratize body intelligence for every stage of a woman’s life.
Throughout the conversation, Christy speaks candidly about the challenges and joys of entrepreneurship, especially as a female founder in health tech. She emphasizes the importance of empathy — both toward others and oneself — and encourages founders to stay anchored in purpose by connecting directly with the people they serve. Christy’s reflections on leadership, equity in women’s health, and the role of love and service in organizations offer powerful inspiration for healthcare leaders seeking to drive meaningful change.
"If you need to feel inspired, go directly to your customer… They’ll remind you why you started."
MEET OUR GUEST Christy Fernandez-Cull, CEO of DaVinci Wearables and former leader of sensing teams at Waymo (Google Self-Driving) and Lyft's Self-Driving Division.
Dr. Christy Fernandez-Cull is CEO of DaVinci Wearables and former leader of sensing teams at Waymo (Google Self-Driving) and Lyft's Self-Driving Division. She played a key role at Apple, contributing to autonomous systems and releasing the first LiDAR module in the 2020 iPad. Dr. Fernandez-Cull has experience in Defense technologies at MIT Lincoln Laboratory and consumer products at Apple. She advises VCs and startups in mobility, autonomous vehicles, and digital health, and serves on several boards. She holds a Ph.D. from Duke University and an MBA from MIT and lectures at Columbia University and MIT.
Longer Dr. Christy Fernandez-Cull is the CEO of DaVinci Wearables. Previously, she led the sensing and perception system’s teams at Waymo - formerly Google Self-Driving. She was also the Head of Sensors at Lyft Level 5 Self-Driving Division, leading sensor architecture for Lyft vehicle platforms — designing machine eyes to help transform transportation of the future. Prior to Lyft, she was a senior technologist at Apple spanning autonomous systems and the Camera and Depth Hardware team that released the first-of-kind Light Detection and Ranging module in the 2020 iPad. She has spanned both the development of Defense technologies at MIT Lincoln Laboratory and at-scale consumer-product technologies at Apple. She is a senior science advisor to multiple VCs and startups in the areas of sensors and systems for mobility applications, autonomous vehicles and digital health and wearables. She’s a Board member of Omnitron and a Venture Partner and Deep Tech Advisor at L’attitude Ventures and serves on a non-profit board. She received her MS and Ph.D. in Engineering from Duke University and MBA from MIT and enjoys mentoring in STEM/STEAM fields and serves as a adjunct/lecturer at Columbia University, guest lecture and AI practitioner at MIT-LL and MIT Media Lab.
Naji Gehchan: Welcome to Spread Love in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast, where we explore leadership with purpose. I’m Naji, your host, joined today by Michael Pietrack. Michael has been recruiting in the pharmaceutical industry for nearly 20 years. He and his team has successfully placed more than a thousand pharmaceutical professionals during that time, leaving a positive impact on the industry.
Michael started his recruiting career with the Alpine Group, where he led the medical affairs search practice. In 2015, he co founded TMAC Direct, an executive search firm exclusively devoted to medical affairs. Under Michael’s leadership, the company was named one of the top U. S. executive search firms by Forbes.
In 2023, Michael joined Kay Bassman to lead the expansion of the already established and high performing pharmaceutical and biotech search practice. Aside from recruiting, Michael is also a speaker, recruiting trainer, and an accomplished author, and was recognized as one of PhRMA’s 100 most inspiring people by PhRMA Voice.
Michael is also a fellow podcast host on the PhRMAverse podcast, where he engages in insightful conversations with industry leaders. Michael, it is so good to have you with me today. Thank you so much. Thanks for the nice introduction. First, I would love to hear more about your personal story. What brought you to be a recognized talent recruiter and specifically the pharma and biotech industry?
Michael Pietrack: Well, it was really an accident. I started off as a baseball coach. I was a baseball player in college. Didn’t really know what I wanted to do with my life, so I got into coaching, and I had a knack for recruiting, and at that point, you’re recruiting players and talking to their parents, trying to get them to come to your school and be on your team, and then at the end of that run, because it was not a lot of money to be made in that world, I hooked up with a pharmaceutical industry recruiting agency called the Alpine Group, as you mentioned, and they put me in a place called Medical Affairs, And, uh, I just tried to make the best of it using all the skills I had learned as a recruiting coordinator in the baseball world.
So that’s how it happened. It was an accident. I wasn’t seeking it. And then you never left. Never left. Never left. And now I can’t. And now I can’t even imagine
Naji Gehchan: doing anything else. So what is, what is for you, what’s attractive in the medical industry? And I know we’ve talked like the first time we chatted about the impact that you can have obviously on, on people’s lives and as a recruiter, you place those leaders who will have that impact.
So I’m, I’m intrigued. Why can’t you see yourself anywhere else now?
Michael Pietrack: Well, when I first started, you know, it was really, I like talking to people that were intelligent. I felt like that was, um, that was just something that, that really meant a lot to me on a daily basis. But now it’s really about patience.
You know, now that I’m getting older, now that I’ve, you know, have lost a parent, now that I’ve seen my friends go through different kinds of therapies and diseases and things. I realized that we’re all going to end up being patients at some point in time. And so I really just like being involved in this industry.
And as a person that can’t really go and affect a patient’s life, you know, but putting the best possible person in the best position to help is sort of how I help patients. So I get a lot of gratification around that.
Naji Gehchan: And as you said, we’re all here for that purpose. So certainly by, by doing what you’re doing, you’re helping the industry reach our purpose even faster and better.
Uh, hiring is probably one of the hardest thing and it’s the core of what you’ve done. I love the similarities you said with being a coach, uh, in the baseball field. Um, can you share with us, like, what are the top three recommendations for a hiring manager to think of? Regardless of the role, but more as
Michael Pietrack: Oh, good question. I think about this a lot. I think the very first thing that a hiring manager needs to know is really know what they want. Sometimes I feel like a hiring manager is shopping and they’re just kind of browsing. They don’t really know exactly what they want. So have a clear picture of what you want, what good looks like and be able to act on that.
The second thing is not to hire clones of yourself. Okay. I think one of the biggest mistakes rookie, um, I’d say leaders make is they try to find another one of them instead of trying to find a person that fits strategically within the team, maybe complements somebody else as far as being different. And then I would say, you know, trust your gut.
A lot of hiring is just gut instinct. And what I tell hiring managers is if it’s not an immediate yes. It’s a no. So in to move people in and out, like sometimes a hiring manager will want to put somebody on hold or on the back burner. But look, those people aren’t gonna get hired. Just let him go, give him dignity and let him move on.
So those would be the big three things. Know what you want to do. Uh, you know, don’t hire clones of yourself. And if it’s not a if it’s not a yes, it’s a no.
Naji Gehchan: I love those advice. So now if I look at it from a talent being hired, how do you, um, what’s your relationship with, uh, people being hired? Any different advice?
Or is it kind of the mirror of what you just said?
Michael Pietrack: No, it is different. I can tell you as a recruiter, a lot of people that are in my seat only do what we call marketing. So they’re only trying to get the jobs. And then they. outsource with a team of their own to go and get the candidate. But, uh, what I do is I do all of it.
Like, I love the candidate journey and, and being a, a character in that chapter of their life. I just love that. So for me, I would say the big three for candidates is to. No, where you’re trying to take your career to use a baseball quote, I’m probably gonna misquote it. But Yogi Berra said, Look, if you don’t know where you’re going, any road will take you there.
And so the same thing, you know, you want to make sure that the move that you make is on strategy and you have a clear picture of the strategy. Otherwise, everything’s gonna sound kind of good. The next thing I would do is, is to let the person, I guess, tell the person that the people that they’re going to work with is almost the most important thing.
So the job has to check the people box. So really diving in, getting to know the individual that you’re going to either report to and also the strategy of the overall leadership team is paramount. And then three, don’t be scared to take risks. All the leaders that I interview on the Pharmaverse podcast, they always say they took some big risk that catapulted their career.
So I would say those are the, those are the big three things. Know where you’re going, make sure that people box is checked, and also don’t be scared to make risks, take
Naji Gehchan: risks. So you just mentioned your podcast and these are great advice for, for our listeners on both sides. Tell us a little bit more about your podcast.
Michael Pietrack: Well, again, another accident. Um, well, I, I was thinking about starting a podcast, but you know, in my world, there’s a lot of podcasts like in medical affairs. A lot of my competitors do a really nice job with their podcasts and just like a pharmaceutical company doesn’t want to be late to the market. I didn’t want to either.
But I, as I was moving to Kay Bassman into a larger leadership role, I started interviewing established leaders that I had in my network that I really respect. And I started picking their brains about leadership. Well, one of the guys I was interviewing. Said, oh man, I wish that was recorded. And then the light bulb went off for me and, uh, and I, so I started a leadership podcast, it’s called the Pharma Averse Podcast.
And the reason I call it the pharma averse is I wanna pull leaders from all different areas of the universe of pharma to get sort of the best practices about leadership from a, a, a lot of different people. Sort of a composite sketch of best leadership advice. And so that’s how the pharma averse was, was, um.
Was originated and it’s really Interesting to be on this side of a podcast now,
Naji Gehchan: well, and you have, uh, so you’ve had several interviews now, um, approximately 20, I think, uh, and great, uh, leaders and you, you talked about different topics within, uh, pharma, healthcare, biotech, is there like a one big learning from all those different interviews or one big threat that you would take?
Michael Pietrack: I would say that, you know, your podcast, the focusing on love, um, is really something that I see woven through, I would say 80 percent of the people that I interview is genuinely caring, like not, not fake caring. But genuine caring and people can know, know the difference when a leader genuinely cares about their people, they’re going to be a very strong leader.
So all the people that I’ve been interviewing that has been the most consistent thing mentioned is caring or in your your case love.
Naji Gehchan: I love that. It reassures me. You know, mine is biased. Obviously, I interview healthcare leaders who believe in this. It’s good to hear that within our industry, it’s 80%. As you said, people you interviewed.
Um, I’m going to move now to a section where I’ll give you a word. I’d love your first reaction to it.
Michael Pietrack: Okay, I’m ready.
Naji Gehchan: So the first one is leadership.
Michael Pietrack: The first word that comes to my mind is leading from the front. Is that a word? Yeah, that’s fine. Tell us more. Well, so, uh, another thing that I see not only in my own experience, but also through interviewing other leaders is, Leadership is not from the back, cracking the whip, getting the, you know, the, uh, the sled dogs to go in a certain way.
That’s not really what leadership is. It’s really like someone leading from the front, being like the expedition lead saying, we’re going to go up that mountain. I’m going to show you the way, and I’m going to lead from the front. And then as you’re leading from the front, you kind of. Slowly move the way back, making sure everybody in your expedition is is doing okay.
No one’s falling behind. Um, and so that’s why I say leading from the front. What about legacy legacy? The first thing? Well, I wrote a book called Legacy, so that’s the first thing that came to my mind is the book. But really, legacy is more about the qualities that you exude that people then begin to emulate.
And that’s what this legacy book is about, is about more about the legacy. You leave your Children, and it’s more about the actions that you do. So the actions that you take. And that’s true in leadership. It’s true in parenting. You know, it’s, it’s like you don’t want to be the parent that’s smoking a cigarette saying, don’t smoke.
You know, um, you want to lead, you want to lead and, and, and show them what good looks like. And then that’s the legacy that you leave, uh, the, the generation behind you or, or your team. The third one is personal brands. Personal brand. I would say personal branding is, is very similar to legacy. It’s about what you represent.
It’s the, um, it’s like if you think of, um, any brand, you’re going to have an immediate reaction to that brand. And the same thing with when you hear someone’s name, what that, what they feel, what they think, what they remember, all of that is what your personal brand is about. Now, some of that you can influence You know, through branding, you know, through social media or whatever.
Uh, but most of that is again, how you act, what you do, what you stand for, what you do in times of crisis, what you do when you’re, when you have to make a big decision, all those, uh, create your personal brand.
Naji Gehchan: So, and these two legacy and personal brands, obviously you wrote a book on legacy and I know you also wrote articles about personal branding.
I want to expand a little bit more on, on this topic. I’ve, you know, we talk a lot about it. Do we need to care about our personal brand? And like my first reaction to people is whether you like it or not, you would have a brand, right? There’s no, you can’t like decide not to have a personal brand. It exists.
It’s a matter of. How you shape it, do you want to touch it, et cetera. So as you worked on it, is there anything, how, how do you push people to think about their personal brand as a leader and is there any advice on how to do it in a certain way for you to achieve what you want to achieve in life, I would say.
Michael Pietrack: Yeah. So let me take the first part first. Should you have one? And like you mentioned, you’re going to have one whether you want to or not. Um, but it has to be strategic. A lot of the people that I talk to about personal branding, they really don’t want to put themselves out there. They really don’t want to like, they don’t, they’re not big fans of social media or whatever the case may be.
There’s something that they don’t want to be involved in and they think they have to. Make it all about them. But like even you with this podcast. I mean for you. It’s about sharing love within organizations It’s not about you. It’s about love same thing with my podcast. It’s not it’s not the Michael P track show Let me go on a rant every other week.
It’s let me showcase a leader and let’s learn from them And so all of that is establishing our personal brands So, uh, actually we have a podcast coming up about personal branding with someone. I think that’s really doing a great job of it. And all he does is highlight how good. Employees are every post he puts out.
There is. Let me tell you how good my colleague is. Well, so, so if someone is not really like into personal branding, even if you’re showcasing other people, your personal, your branding yourself as someone who’s selfless, someone who puts other people first, you know, someone that’s a great leader and someone that you I’d want to work for.
And so all that creates a personal brand. So how do you do it? Well, the first thing that you have to do is you have to think about what is your medium? Like, are you going to be a podcast host? Are you going to be very active on LinkedIn? Is Twitter your thing? Or is there some other forum that you want to?
That has an audience that you want to brand to like, for instance, you know, any other brand may have a commercial and they may choose to do that at the Super Bowl because that’s when the biggest audience is there. Well, maybe your biggest audience is linked in. I know mine is. So for me, I do a lot of my personal branding on linked in.
So once you establish where your forum is, then it’s all about frequency and content. And a lot of people that I talked to about this are like, Oh, I don’t want to have to come up with content and, and, uh, everything is content, whether it’s, you’re having a review lunch with Jennifer, or you’re having a team meeting in Boston and you guys go see some, uh, iconic element in that city, whatever the case may be, those, that content, everything is content when you put it out there on LinkedIn or whatever the form is, you have to be consistent with it.
So I’ll stop there because that’s a lot of information, but that’s what I would say is, is how to do
Naji Gehchan: it, but this is great information. And as you said, consistency about the content, I think is a, is a great piece of advice, uh, along with all the other pieces that you brought. Thank you. The fourth one is spread love and organizations.
Yeah.
Michael Pietrack: Well, I got to tell you, the first thing that I thought about was. First Corinthians 13 four, uh, which is in the Bible says, I have it pulled up here. Love is patient. Love is kind. Love is not jealous. It does not brag. It does not get puffed up. And it goes on. And then in verse eight, it says love never fails.
So when I heard this podcast about spreading love and organizations, the first thing I went to is love is. And when I think about my own personal leadership style, I fail. Often, but this is what I’m trying to do. I’m trying to be patient. I’m trying to be kind. I’m trying not to brag about my own accomplishments, but highlight other people.
I’m trying not to get puffed up when when agitated or when my ego is bruised. Um, I don’t, you know, in the list goes on. And I know that if I do that, A drug may fail, a business initiative may fail, but love is not going to fail. And so for me, when you say love, I think of, I think of that scripture. Yeah.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you, Michael, uh, for sharing also vulnerably, uh, a part of, uh, you as a leader. So I really appreciate that. Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders? I
Michael Pietrack: would say what I’ve learned and speaking more about love is the best leaders. It’s not about them. When I’m on the phone with someone and they’re talking about their career, there really are two types of people.
There’s the people that are really worried about the people around them. Helping them develop his leaders. And then there’s people that are all about their own career and their own career progression. And sometimes when they’re talking to a recruiter, they are more eye focused. And that’s that’s understandable.
But I would say the best leaders are not hung up on titles. They’re not hung up on anything other than the scope of the work and the people they’re gonna do work with. And so if I could impart one bit of advice, not only to candidates, but also to leaders, is think about the work. Not the title of the job, not what it pays, not what the equity is.
Yeah, those things are important, but they should be secondary to how, how vital the work is. How much, uh, intrinsic value will you derive from doing the work? Who will you be doing the work with? Is this a team that you want to go and try to win the Superbowl with, even if you’re the backup running back?
So that would be my advice.
Naji Gehchan: These are incredible advice. Uh, for everyone listening, I truly thank you so much, Michael, for being with me. It’s been a great conversation. I’ll make sure also we, um, for my listeners, you will have, uh, your podcast also featured to listen to some of the incredible, uh, leaders that you interviewed.
Uh, and we can all expand and learn as, uh, as leaders, podcasters on the different podcasts that we have. So thanks again for being with me today. It’s been a pleasure. My pleasure too. And we have to have you on the podcast. We will. We will. Thanks for listening to the show. For more episodes, make sure to subscribe on spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Michael Pietrack first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
On this episode, I had the privilege of hosting Afarin Bellisario, a mentor at MIT Sandbox, author, and tech entrepreneur with an extraordinary life story. Afarin began by sharing her journey from her childhood in Iran to becoming a prominent figure in high-tech and entrepreneurship in the U.S. Growing up in a family that straddled traditional and modern Iran, she had a unique perspective on navigating the contrasting worlds of South and North Tehran. Her education, initially rooted in mathematics, became her ticket to freedom and opportunity, culminating in her studies at NYU and MIT. The tumultuous events of the Revolution profoundly shaped her, compelling her to forge a new path in America. She eloquently described how curiosity, resilience, and adaptability fueled her career, whether in corporate America or mentoring young entrepreneurs.
We also delved into her debut novel, Silence Whispers, which tells the story of a young woman navigating transformative changes in her life and country. Afarin explained how this fictional character, Gohar, was inspired by both her own experiences and the rich stories of her heritage, blending historical and personal elements. Through extensive research and creative writing, she captured the complex dualities of Iranian society and the broader universal struggles of identity, resilience, and transformation. Afarin emphasized that while Gohar shares some traits with her, the character stands apart as a vehicle for exploring the broader human experience. The novel serves as both a personal exploration and a reflection on the cultural and societal shifts of her homeland.
Finally, Afarin shared her philosophy on the intersection of history and technology, emphasizing how understanding the past can inform and guide our technological future. Drawing on examples from her work with startups and historical case studies, she highlighted the recurring patterns in how society reacts to radical new technologies. From the advent of radio to the rise of artificial intelligence, Afarin underscored the importance of maintaining human agency and using technology as a tool for good. Her reflections offered profound insights into leadership, innovation, and the enduring need to balance progress with humanity.
"Change is inevitable; embracing it with curiosity turns challenges into opportunities."
MEET OUR GUEST Afarin Bellisario Consultant, Advisor at MIT, and Author.
Afarin Bellisario bridges East and West, technology and the human condition, and past and present. Born and raised in Tehran in a family with its feet in the past and its head in the future, she led a successful career in high-tech and international business in the US after earning her PhD (from Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). But writing had always been her passion. Having written professionally in pre-revolutionary Iran, she has published op-eds in major papers, including the Boston Globe and an essay, Movies with my Aunt, as part of the anthology Love & Pomegranates.
Today, she mentors startups, teaches, and writes about the clash between tradition and modernity and how the past can shed light on our technology-fueled future. A music lover, she is a Cambridge Chamber Ensemble board member and writes for their newsletter as well as on Medium. Afarin continues to discover new destinations globally.
In this episode of SpreadLove in Organizations, Naji hosted Jason Bhardwaj, a seasoned life science executive and CEO of Nova Anchora. Jason shared his journey from growing up in a science-oriented household to leading biotech startups. He described how his passion for healthcare and business developed through his studies in biomedical engineering at Duke and a decade-long career in consulting. His transition from consulting to entrepreneurship reflects his drive to build impactful solutions in heatlthcare.
Jason highlighted key lessons from his experience building and leading biotech teams. He emphasized the importance of finding personal gratification in the startup ecosystem, where milestones - like moving a project from concept to clinic - feel profoundly rewarding. He discussed the critical role of people decisions in virtual biotech models, stressing the importance of rigorous hiring processes and selecting the right partners to ensure a cohesive and capable core team. Jason's philosophy centers on creating an environment where each team member's unique skills contribute to breakthrough innovations.
Beyond biotech, Jason shared his commitment to community and education. With two young children, he recently announced his candidacy for the Newton, Massachusetts public school committee. Inspired by a family legacy in teaching, he aims to contribute to educational development and support local families. This passion underscores his belief that learning is a lifelong journey, whether in science, business, or public service.
"Find the way you want to make a difference"
MEET OUR GUEST Jason Bhardwaj CEO of Nova Anchora.
Jason Bhardwaj is an experienced life sciences executive with a broad background leading in startups and ~20 years working in healthcare. Currently, Jason is the CEO of Nova Anchora, developing a recombinant protein-based treatment for DEB (dystrophic epidermolysis bullosa). Prior to this, Jason served for 6 years as CEO of another dermatology-focused biotech (Follica, a drug-device combination product for alopecia). Jason has led or advised across a wide range of technologies (drugs, devices, combinations), as well as indications (e.g., Dermatology, Psychiatry, Cardiology, Ophthalmology).Prior to life science startups, Jason studied biomedical engineering (Duke), received a masters degree in business (Harvard), and developed a decade of foundational experience in consulting (Bain) working with some of the largest healthcare innovators on a full functional suite of critical challenges (e.g., growth strategy, pricing, M&A diligence, organizational and operating model alignment).Jason and his family live in Newton, MA, where he is involved in the community as a soccer coach, marathon runner, and most recently via a bid for the school committee.
Find more and support Jason's mission: www.jason4newton.com
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
Naji Gehchan: Welcome to Spread Love in Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast, where we explore leadership with purpose. I’m Naji, your host, joined today by Jason Bhardwaj, an experienced life science executive with a broad background leading in startups and 20 years working in healthcare. Currently, Jason is the CEO of Nova and Cora, developing a recombinant protein-based treatment for DEB, Dystrophic Epidermolysis Bullosa.
Prior to this, Jason served for six years as CEO of another dermatology focused biotech. Jason has led or advised across a wide range of technologies, as well as indications in healthcare. Prior to life sciences startups, Jason studied biomedical engineering at Duke, received a master’s degree in business from Harvard and developed a decade of foundational experience in consulting, working with some of the largest healthcare innovators on a full functional suite of critical challenges.
Jason and his family are my neighbors here in Uten, Massachusetts, where he is involved in the community as a soccer coach, marathon runner, and most recently via a bid for the school committee. Jason, it’s so good to see you again and have you with me today.
Jason Bhardwaj: Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited.
Naji Gehchan: I’d love for us to hear more about your personal story. What’s behind the lines of your journey from biomedical engineering to consulting and now being a CEO of a biotech. Thanks.
Jason Bhardwaj: Yeah. Where to begin? I mean, I, I think, um, Healthcare and science have been a theme for me for a very, very long time, I think both by natural affinity.
But, you know, my, uh, both my parents studied engineering. Um, my mom was a mechanical engineer. She studied at Rice is where she met my dad, who was a PhD in material science there. And, um, so I, you know, I think that there was an infusion of that. You know, scientific thinking into our house, like we had the white board above the dining room and my dad would give us lectures when he came home, like that type of thing.
So that’s, that’s definitely the environment. And so, um, you know, I think there was a, a number of, I loved chemistry, uh, that was probably my favorite subject in high school. Um, and then when I got to, um, thinking about undergraduate institutions, et cetera, You know, Duke was really on my radar for biomedical engineering, and something had started to clip for me at that stage around biology, life sciences, and medicine, you know, and all those things at that naive stage for me were kind of on the table, and it felt like a good place to go and kind of figure it out.
Um, and so that, that was an important juncture for me, and I did think about pursuing medicine, and not really sure I had a great framework at that stage in my life for making the decision, but decided, you No, I wanted to point more towards an intersection of business and science. And so I studied biomedical engineering and economics, you know, uh, some institutions, uh, don’t have a quote unquote vocational business program.
Um, so that was my way of sort of, uh, doing, doing. That intersection academically as they were and, um, and then strategy consulting was meant to be like sort of a few year gig to figure out where to land in the health care ecosystem and I loved it and it ended up being more like a decade. But I always did have that sort of I want to build something type of an itch.
Um, and I, I did feel like the learning was there and I just love the people. Where I was working at Bain and, um, and so, you know, that’s, that’s what kept me there for ultimately bookends, a full decade. And finally, it was one of these, like, if I don’t push myself out of the nest now, like, when is it going to ever happen?
And, and so started, um, doing smaller, uh, healthcare, uh, ultimately life focus, life science focused startups. Um, and now it’s been a decade of doing that. And I’ve, I’ve just loved it. Um, and I, and I wouldn’t go back, but. The training and the exposure was really fantastic.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks for sharing, Jason.
What’s your biggest learning? As you said, now you’ve been on a decade building team, building biotech, being the CEO. What is your biggest learning through the past years of doing that?
Jason Bhardwaj: Yeah, I mean, there’s so many learnings. I mean, maybe to this, you know, discussion we’re just having of finding your path and what is it that you want to do?
You know, I think, um, There’s something to life science startups or, you know, or, or, you know, um, building a project from, from early stages. That, uh, for me personally, and I think everyone has their own personal index for, you know, gratification, satisfaction, et cetera. But the wins feel really big when you start at these stages and you bring something from, you remember when it was sketch on a napkin ish.
And, and so when you get the milestones like, um, IND moving forward into clinic. Or, you know, a successful readout from a clinical study or anything in between, you know, they, they feel really big. Um, and so that personally for me has been a real learning of, uh, find your place in the ecosystem that has that right balance of effort and gratification.
And look. There are losses too and you feel those too and you have to be able to make those, that kind of, um, arc work for you personally. And then I get why some people prefer a different, you know, portfolio approach or something like that. But for me, uh, that was a big learning is find your place in the ecosystem where you can add value.
And it really is a personal fit for your, for, you know, how you derive satisfaction.
Naji Gehchan: And it certainly is, as you said, humbling and gratifying at the same time, as you know, like this is something I also do. And. As you were speaking, like, each one of those myostones is so important and so big, and at the end of the day, you’re bringing hope and hopefully a new medicine to patients as each one of those myostones is hit, and as you take this molecule, From a piece of paper and to the bench preclinical and all those faces as we both know from, from that, um, experience, as you said, like building a project, building a company, uh, I’d love to hear more about your people experience while building those companies.
How do you think about building a team in a biotech to develop those breakthrough medications?
Jason Bhardwaj: Yeah. Um, the projects that I’ve worked on have been at the stage and scale as independent startups that we’ve had a very virtual model. Um, and so I think it really in that model, it really amplifies the importance of what you’re just describing of.
people decisions. Um, and so both of these, um, companies, you know, the one, the team I’m building now, and we’ve, we’ve just started hiring the core team. Um, and then the last company, you know, um, single digit size core teams. And as anyone who’s in the space knows, then you, you have a sort of portfolio of advisors, contractors, and other folks getting involved, CROs, et cetera, um, to augment that.
And so, you know, on both fronts, the, the sort of core team and The folks that you build around that, um, in that type of a setting that the people decisions are so, so important. Um, because, you know, if you have a sort of a weak leg of the stool, so to speak, or, you know, you really feel that, especially as a leader, um, you end up spending in order when there are weak legs of the stool, you end up spending way too much time supporting the leg instead of You know, kind of overall strategy and moving things forward.
And so that, that I think is the key lesson, especially when, when you’re architected that way, that the core is really important. And then, you know, similarly, though, I think, um, really making sure that you have the right partners. And for that, again, it’s a little bit like placing the ecosystem dependent.
There are partners who are really high capability that, um, are not geared to work with smaller stage startup entrepreneur. And so really, um, depending on the type of partnership, et cetera, like, um, having a, a, um, a sense of. What your criteria are and making those decisions, um, appropriately are really important as well.
You know, if you commit to a CRO for your key study and you just find that they aren’t nimble enough for the particular areas of your disease state or recruiting or organizing the sites, uh, it can be really, really painful to sort of switch gears.
Naji Gehchan: So I want to ask one more question about the core team, as you said, like, it’s hard to build a core team, uh, hard to hire the right people.
So how do you think about this as you’re hiring? Is it something, is there like one philosophy that you have throughout the past decade on hiring the winning team, uh, for, to help you build this, the biotech that you’re building?
Jason Bhardwaj: Yeah, I I’m gonna have to think about that. I mean, I the ones philosophy. It’s been so situational.
Um, you know, I’ll just give the example of how just having hired our first team member for a new team, you know, um, it for us right now. Manufacturing is the key. And so, you know, I think the framework and we were maybe it’s it’s a positive time to be hiring in the market, but we had some really great candidates.
And so, you know, really trying for that particular linchpin role for us, balancing the sort of, you know, the program management have because there’s so many resources. This role is going to need to direct versus, um, the thought leadership component, which is really do they have. Um, the requisite detailed expertise in the functional areas that really, really matter, you know, for us, it was downstream in particular, uh, development, uh, uh, for, for CMC of a recombinant protein, you know, that what I, what I do sort of ascribe to is that, you know, aphorism of, If you hire a B player, they hire C players, you know, so we really, really, um, I put an inordinate amount of time on the hiring process.
If there’s a rule there, it’s like, anytime I feel like I’m spending way too much time on, you know, the process or or number of candidates or, you know, orchestrating, you know, what my questions are, the interview versus my academic collaborator versus our CMC advisor. We put a ton of time and effort into that.
I’m glad we did. You know what I mean? Like the returns felt. So I don’t know that there was really, um, like a philosophy as much as a, like, making those investments to really have as high quality of processes you can and, and, and being very clear on what the particularities of that particular role are to, to, to make sure it, um, it, the person is set up to, to be the linchpin we need them to be, I think was really key.
Naji Gehchan: Awesome. Uh, another area you’re passionate about, uh, and as you were talking about your, uh, your dad,
I’m going to ask again the question. I’m not sure if you heard it, but there was. Okay, another area you’re passionate about, Jason, and as you were talking about your dad giving lectures, it reminded me probably of something you are working on currently. You’re passionate about community and education, too, and this is something you said from your very early beginning you’ve been very passionate about.
Can you tell us a little bit more about your work and involvement there, too? Because I feel everything is kind of interlinked at the end of the day.
Jason Bhardwaj: Yeah, yeah, that’s well, let me first address the analogy and then, uh, the specifics. So, um, yeah, I really do think that, um, a whatever it is a sort of learning mindset is so key to especially in our role and frame of work.
I mean, this is not, um, producing widgets. There is so much. Art and high minded science into what we’re doing and uncertainty. And so there is a lot of, you know, we’re students in life sciences. Absolutely. Um, yes, I, I do have, as you alluded to in the introduction, a new, um, side project, which is, um, school committee, um, bid here in Newton and Newton, Massachusetts and, um, you know, I think, yeah, absolutely.
There’s a lot of motivations for that. The biggest, of course, is having two elementary school kids, um, and then, which, um, many of my parents share that, and so, so that’s the skin in the game, and but I think, um, yes, there, there’s a lot of family history, not only what I mentioned with, um, you know, the lectures at dinner, but my grandmother was a, um, elementary school teacher and then principal.
Um, my mother went into, uh, teaching later in her career, um, English as a second language with my brothers in, uh, pre kindergarten education, and, you know, I, I didn’t pursue those paths, but I do, I do have a little bit of the bug. And so this maybe felt like a way to scratch an itch, I guess. Um, and not just that being involved in education, but sort of giving back in some mission oriented way.
Um, it sort of kind of coalesced for me. Um, and yeah, I was in between roles, uh, and had already been involved both in the community as a coach and other ways. a room parent and involved in the schools, but really started volunteering and signing up for whatever I could. And a buddy of mine was like, you, I think I was, you know, philosophizing around the soapbox about an issue.
And it was like, you should run for school committee. And my initial reaction was that’s crazy, but it sort of started a process. Um, that’s led to a few weeks ago, formally announcing and have. wonderful support from, you know, uh, other parents in the community who are helping me. So I’ve, I’ve learned so much.
Think about, uh, you know, ways to learn. I’ve learned so much about, um, schooling and the history of Ed, of Newton, which is a very, very rich history of education. The twists and turns that led us to where we are today. Um, and I think it’s an exciting time to get involved. So, yeah, that’s it’s it’s a long wind up for, um, an election in November of next year.
But, yeah, I’ll be running for my board. We’re 3, which, um. Every ward in Newton has a rep, there are eight, and, um, the entire town votes. So it’s, uh, that’s a totally new educational experience for me as well, the political one.
Naji Gehchan: But this is, this is great, and having an impact early on, I know we talked a lot, a lot about curriculum, how this is done, and being involved in the community and, and the education piece.
I know you’re big on steam, obviously. Uh, I, you know, like this is great to see this involvement from you and what you’re trying to achieve for, uh, for our community. Obviously I’m biased. My kids are also in the, uh, the Newton public school. So, so this is, uh, something also very close to my heart. Uh, and it’s great to see people like you helping out, uh, with the educational system.
Uh, I would love now to move. To, um, a section where I’m going to give you a word and I would love your first reaction to it.
Jason Bhardwaj: Right. So the
Naji Gehchan: first, the first one is leadership.
Jason Bhardwaj: Yeah. Leadership. I think, uh, my reaction is it is so multifaceted and it means so many different things. So we all can be leaders, but just finding a way to have an impact, to collaborate, um, to, to, to have an idea and move it forward.
I mean, that’s leadership.
What about biotech? Biotech. I think biotech, um, it just jumps off the page as exciting science and a way to help people. Um, we have so many unsolved problems in the world, medically, and it’s really just moving forward so fast now. I just find so much constant excitement from hearing what’s happening in the ecosystem.
Naji Gehchan: The third one is about education. STEAM.
Jason Bhardwaj: Yes. You know, I Steam gets talked about the most with gender imbalances, etc. But to me, I think that that connects to me with just excitement. Um, you know, science. And math and engineering. I mean, obviously, these were what drove a lot of my academic interest, etc. But I, I think, um, they shouldn’t be esoteric.
They should be approachable and fun and dynamic. And that’s how the school system should continue to approach them. And yes, find ways to broaden it to make sure it’s accessible to everyone of of all segments. I think, especially here in Boston, it’s easy to say that. I mean, we’re such an. Mecca for, um, steam based careers.
And so why not make sure we’re, we’re providing the, the, um, the, the best, um, seeding ground for, for the future innovators. What about spread love and organizations? Yes. Well, spread love. I I’ve now become more acquainted and I think. Uh, the, the name is beautiful and, um, you know, I think, um, spreading insights and connecting with people who are passionate about what they do is, is what an amazing way, um, to, to spread the love.
So, so I, I’m very honored to be, to be, uh, part, a part of the, now the, the volume of, of cool insights and learnings.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, Jason, for leaders around the world?
Jason Bhardwaj: Yeah, I, I think, um,
what to say, I, I, um, I think there’s so many different ways to go out and be a leader and make a difference back to my comments on the versatility of leadership. And so I think finding that way you want to make an impact, perhaps that’s attuned to, like we were saying, you know, your emotional profile. And and where you are most excited about making a difference.
You know, I think that’s where, in my opinion, you know, folks of abilities in all different spheres will have their greatest impact because you really like if you’ve got energy for something, um, that’s where it’s going to jump off the page. And I certainly feel that way with biotech and in my current line of work.
But maybe just bridging briefly back over to the school stuff. I mean, my wife noticed it with me, you know, for me, it was as I, the buddy was like, should you run for the school committee? And I was sitting there in my bed at 1130 at night. Watching old school committee meetings at 1. 5x, you know, like on, on, on Newton TV, it’s like, man, I really have energy for this.
It’s not work. It’s like, it’s, it’s fun. It’s play in his, you know, with a serious tone to that. And, um, and so I think finding that, that energy as you, you know, draw the arc of your career, I think is, is really great. Um, fun and important and will be ultimately how people find their greatest impact.
Naji Gehchan: Yes, and how you framed it is so powerful.
Find the way you want to make a difference. And there’s no small difference, right? And this is what you’re, what we’re talking about here. The difference in your community from education to healthcare. And obviously ultimately what you’re doing in the biotech world, bringing innovations to patients. So thanks again for being with me today, sharing.
your experiences and also what your, uh, all the impact that you’re trying to bring across Newton and beyond. Uh, it’s been a real pleasure to have you with me today, Jason. Thank you. Fantastic. Thank you so much, Naji. Really appreciate it. Thanks for listening to the show. For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to spreadloveio.
com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Let’s inspire change together and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Jason Bhardwaj first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Afaline Belisario, a leader who bridges East and West, technology and the human condition, and past and present. Born and raised in Tehran, in a family with its feet in the past and its head in the future, she led a successful career in high tech and international business in the U.
S. After earning her PhD from MIT. But writing had always been her passion. Having written professionally in pre revolutionary Iran, she has published in major papers, including the Boston Globe and an essay, Movies with My Aunt, as part of the anthology, Love and Pomegranates. Today, she mentors startups, teaches, and writes about the clash between tradition and modernity and how the past can shed light on our technology fueled future.
A music lover, she is also a Cambridge Chamber Ensemble Board member and writes for their newsletter as well as on Medium. Afarine continues to discover new destinations globally. It’s a great pleasure to host you and have you with me today.
Afarin Bellisario: Thank you very much. It’s a great pleasure and honor to be on your podcast and speak with yourself and your audience.
Naji Gehchan: First, I’d love to hear more about your personal story. We’ve met through MIT Sandbox, where you mentor. I know you’re passionate about startups, but I really want to start with your personal story, from your childhood in Iran to high tech business to now being an author, teacher, mentor. What’s in between the lines of this great, inspiring journey of yours?
Afarin Bellisario: Well, first and foremost is that, uh, MIT Sandbox. I am, um, uh, I’m curious. I just want to know. I, I, I am, I learn, I yearn to learn and I yearn to, uh, interact with people and I’m not afraid of change. And that’s a good thing for, um, um, and at heart, at least. Entrepreneur. I mean, I work for big corporation, but I always have been.
And how they enter entrepreneurial or entrepreneurial if you like, uh, kind of, uh, position within those, those companies. Um, my story, of course, begins in Iran. I grew up in a family that, uh, and the mom was just telling me that, oh, there are parts of, uh, Iranians who, uh, will always, you know, the people, my, my age, a lot of them who are born in North Tehran, for example, they know nothing about the South Tehran, but.
I was fortunate where my grandparents, for example, were traditional people living in Bazaar. My grandfather was a merchant and my, um, but my father was a university professor. He was a doctor. My aunts, um, you know, everybody was educated. So we all moved to North Tehran, if you will. We, we were in the traditional part of Tehran and then we moved north towards more westernized, more modern Tehran.
And of course, you know, uh, more, um, secular is the same, same thing with lots of American movies and American, um, books and things like that. So I was fortunate to have my feet, one foot in one side, one foot in another, because I can understand the problems of this. This, um, this difference will, will, will create, uh, I know, for example, ladies who worked in North Tehran, in North Tehran, you have to be, um, you know, look like somebody who stepped out of a Bloomingdale’s or Harold’s or whatever.
And in South Tehran, people were, women were expected to wear, Uh, headscarf. And so therefore it is very, very different, um, different way of life, different way of everything. And, you know, uh, there were ladies who wanted to, um, to, to, to get ahead in life and they went to school and stuff and, um, maybe get a job in North Tehran in some of these, uh, beautiful glass, uh, office buildings.
But, um, And I know that for a fact. So they would leave their house because women in Iran lived with their parents. They leave their house, um, you know, with their scarf and a very long skirt and no makeup and something in their route to their office. They would be transformed. It’s sort of like a, almost like a Superman, but that would transform.
And it wasn’t that they wanted to be deceptive, but, uh, but that’s also explains what happened later on in Iran, because it’s, um, you know, so, so I started there and, um, I, my mind is like a sip. I mean, I, my memory, I mean, I, all the people were talking about, I was, uh, I would listen to everybody. I would just, you know, record all the stories in my mind and I would make stories.
I would change the stories that my grandma said and modernize it and things of that sort. But when it, when it, when I grew up, when I went to high school, it was clear that You know, uh, making a living with the writing is not something that, uh, one can do without, uh, sacrificing their, um, a lot of their principles.
And I wasn’t about to do that, and I was lucky enough to have a, um, to be very good in math. And, uh, you know, so I said, okay, I’m gonna, and this is not, I’m not the only one. A lot of people. Uh, a lot of, um, intellectuals in Iran have done that. They have a day job where they do whatever that there is that they do.
And at nighttime, they go and, and write books. So I was, I planned to do that. So at some point in my life, and now, you know, things change. I am, you know, the Iran was, uh, very tumultuous, uh, I, uh, Um, you know, uh, coming to United States to study, and I went to New York University, and then I, uh, transferred to MIT, and, you know, uh, sort of, uh, then the revolution happened, and that’s another story.
One of, one of these days I will write about that, because I was here, uh, when hostages were taken. And of course it was sort of, I
finished my PhD job and I said, okay, it’s here. Whatever. Then, uh, um, you know, uh, um, like many young people, um, I wanted a family. I wanted a husband, I want children. Uh, so it’s a, it’s sort of, I said, okay, well food here, maybe someday, but in my, in my heart of hearts, I knew that, uh, my life. And I was very lucky again that I started here.
I didn’t go back. I can, um, spend some time there and, and then he started my life like my father did. And that’s in America, as you know, better than I do. When, when you go to work here, you work full time and then you have a young family and there’s no evening hours to write anything. And of course, uh, English is not my native language, so, um, I had to learn a lot of vocabularies, you know, sentences, things like that.
And of course I read. I read, but I read everything. I read good stuff, bad stuff, whatever, whatever comes along. Um, so it’s a long story, but Eventually, I got to a point where my kids were were older and gone, and I had a chance to not work full time. And at that point in time, I said, Okay, I’m going to do consulting, I’m going to do mentoring, because I really and truly believe in, in sandbox and you have gone through that as well.
And you know how How useful that is to a lot of engineers and and students. So, you know, I said, this is my life. I mean, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna spend more time in corporate America, which is wonderful when you are doing it. But, you know, and then I started writing and I, of course, you know, like everybody else, the first things first version wasn’t very good.
But I used my mentorship and my entrepreneurial spirit. I said, I’m gonna have people read it and people read the first chat first version. And everyone says a wonderful story. You got it right. You got it right. And then of course, you know, version two and three and four and five and As entrepreneurs, we all know that the passion and the inspiration is one percent, and then the hard work and sweat is 99.
Um, so here we are.
Naji Gehchan: I, I love that. And your book, uh, your book’s name is Silence Whispers.
Afarin Bellisario: Yes.
Naji Gehchan: And I’d love to, um, I’d love for you to tell us more about, uh, about the book. Uh, I have obvious questions about, is it fictional? Is it your story, a story of other women? So I’d love to hear your version of in between the lines of this book.
Uh, before we dig more into, uh, some leadership questions also, uh, I have for you, uh, with your, Leadership.
Afarin Bellisario: Absolutely. So the book, well, as I said, I’m a very curious person when I first started. Uh, having a little time to myself. Um, I looked at, uh, you know, the question of what happened in Iran has always been in my mind and also we are technologists.
I was in the first generation of the smartphones. I was one of the people who are evangelizing it from, from, uh, from standpoint of, I don’t know, technology, uh, you know, uh, as you have time to pause and, uh, my good friend, um, uh, you know, there are Many, many professors at, at Sloan, uh, Professor Ancona, for example, who writes about, uh, taking a pause, you know, take a pause, think about it.
And, and, uh, so I had a chance to take a pause and say, okay, what happened in Iran? And what happened in Iran, if you look at the modernization, you know, middle of the 18th century, 19th century, this was a, Truly backward country between two different empires, you know, one from the North Russians and one from the East, you know, British Empire, which was, of course, in India, and then the other side of it, the rest of Iran was Ottoman Empire, which was crumbling and, you know, it’s a segment of Europe.
Um, and of course, Germans were very much involved in it, and the colonial power were very much involved with Ottomans. So, Iran was sort of being squeezed from all sides, from other sides. So, Iran had no choice but modernize to try to defend itself, try to stay a sovereign nation. So technology came to Iran, science and modernity.
And the way it came to Iran was by a lot of students went outside and they studied and, you know, foreigners came to Iran and started businesses and some Iranians started businesses, you know, factories, things like that. But with this modernity came modern ideas and secure. secular laws, uh, right of women, you know, women can’t be, uh, confined to the home and the chador.
And Iranian women, uh, historically have been brazen enough. And so, uh, they became even more brazen. Uh, and, uh, so we, we had the, the, I think that the tipping point point was the Early 20th century when you had a very weak central government and that, you know, they started a constitutional monarchy. But then, you know, of course, World War One happened, Iran was being violated from left and right.
Eventually, Reza Shah came to power, Pahlavi dynasty started. But that 20th century, years, give or tell. And I, you know, I did a lot of studies. Again, research is what I, what I know how to do. I, that’s what Emma taught me. It’s, you gotta do, you gotta look for things. You can have answers for it. You have to hypothesize things.
And so after all of that, I, for a while I was thinking about, and these are very, um, This is an obscure, um, you know, corner of Iranian history from the standpoint of Americans, because, you know, Americans are very interested in 1953 and the coup d’etat and the evolution. They’re not going back far enough, whereas the root of all of these Breakup within, you know, Iranians are of two minds.
One mind wants to be more modern than Americans. One mind wants to be more restricted than Taliban. So, can’t live in the same country. Is it the same country? Is it, um, are we all And the other thing is that I, um, I Started seeing the, the same roots, uh, the same problems, um, in America, because we’re also getting further and further apart from each other.
So as I said, you know, our first idea was to write some, you know, a book, whatever. And then, believe it or not, one morning I woke up with the idea of Gohan, my, my main character, this young woman who is going through this transformative, um, life to transformative country. Um, and that transformations give her some, some chance as well as she can take advantage of that.
So, um, that’s, that was the first. Uh, first, uh, inclination, of course, as I said, uh, uh, then I learned I had mentors and I had teachers, uh, um, I was lucky to work with some of the good ones and I thought how to do, um, um, I learned how to do character development and the plot development. These all came later in the beginning.
I just wanted to tell the story of that time in Iran, uh, through the eyes of this young woman. that I imagined. So, so ask me any question you want.
Naji Gehchan: I, I, I love it. So I’m really, I want to learn more about this woman and how much you relate actually to her in your story. And also you talked about the unfortunate both sides that we’re seeing, the extremes.
That’s it. That we’re seeing all across the world these days. Yes. Yes. So I’d love for you to tell me her story, how you relate to her and how you’re living in a world of more and more extremism on all sides.
Afarin Bellisario: Yes. So number one, let’s just start with Gohar. When I first started to write the letter again and to write this story, I had no idea how to develop a character.
You know, this is a person who does this. That wasn’t good enough. And one of the things that I work with this lady, um, Ellie, uh, Ruben, that’s, um, you know, the two of us, she was both my editor and my mentor, you know, in terms of editing, she never changed anything. She just said, this doesn’t work. Go and change it, but change it in your own voice.
It was a process. Um, you know, sometimes I got angry and she got angry and we almost, uh, you know, but we work together and she’s a wonderful person. And, uh, today we still work together on the sequels, but, uh, the, the. The thing that she told me is that when I, when you develop a character, you gotta sometimes look into yourself.
You know, how would you do? How would you feel? How would you think? And so Gohar, um, you know, shares a lot of characters with me, but she’s not me. She’s a different person. She’s doing things that Gohar will do, not things that I would do. When I, one of the couple of things that we share. Is number one is that, uh, we both very curious.
So she’s curious. She’s always thinking, you know, sure. What, what is about telling me that? So this why is, is there. So it’s for me too. And the other thing is that we share the, I don’t sing. I, my voice is terrible,
but, uh, but I do, but I love music. I,
That also I share with her. So a lot of characters like that, and I share with her, but she’s not the only character in the book, and she’s certainly not Not the only female character in the book. Um, and for that, um, I basically went back and thought of a book that I knew in Iran and, uh, uh, brought out the stories and the way, you know, they, they manners and then they, they, their lives and things like that.
And when I say the book is, Women, it is true. Uh, it’s a fictional story. The, you know, obviously the, the characters don’t exist, didn’t existed, but people like, uh, and we
did exist. So in that case, it is true. Um, now, the other thing that is true, my great grandfather was Russian and he married my great grandmother who is, that is true too, there were lots of Russians who, like the Iranians, who came to Iran and lived there for a long, long time. Uh, my own, my, my, my, uh, father, My paternal side of the family, my grandfather was from, uh, originally from this town called Orduban, which is no longer in Iran.
It’s actually, um, in, uh, in Azerbaijan and Georgia. It is part of Azerbaijan, but, um, it is in part of Nakhchivan, which is also an interesting story. I want to go there someday, but not yet. Uh, so, uh, my grandfather, for example, was very, um, very active in trying, and there was a very short lived, uh, republic in the 1919, uh, right after World War I, um, in, in Azerbaijan.
And my grandfather was very much into um, you know, this is before my time, but she would tell me the stories and, and, uh, you know, uh, how he helped out, um, you know, he sent money and, and things like that. So, uh, some of those stories, again, I heard from them. Um, I augmented that with, uh, with lots of research, uh, clearly.
So, um, So here we are. So it is true that the Russians did marry Persians.
Naji Gehchan: Fascinating. And, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s such a region full of history, way more complex than what media or news want to tell us about all this part of the world. Um, so well, thank you for shedding a different light on, on this and a different experience. Before I will go to another section, but before that you, there’s something that’s really, uh, I’m intrigued as a philosophy that you have, which is the past can shed light on our technology future.
Yes. And you mentor a lot of startups, really building the future of tech through MIT and other institutions. I would love to hear more about the specific philosophy of yours.
Afarin Bellisario: Yeah, I mean, um, actually I just wrote a little piece for my, my newsletter. It’s a, it’s, We think that, you know, all of these things, I mean, this is the thing, technology is fast, human being and laws and things like that are slow.
Um, if you look at, for example, a hundred years ago when radio was becoming, um, I’m, I’m a student of history. I love history. When I teach entrepreneurship, um, I always have one or two case studies from some old companies there because there’s a lot of lessons. in their successes and also in their failures.
I mean, I talked to them about Polaroid, how great it was, and then it wasn’t, uh, about Lang Laboratories, and these are recent pasts, 50 years ago, 40 years ago, but they were all there. So, so there’s a lot of lessons. Underneath all of these technologies, a human being Who has to use it for good or bad. And every time that you have a radically new technology that is, um, rapidly commercialized.
So once everybody, I mean, yes, a lot of people knew about radio waves in 19, 1800s, but it wasn’t until 1920s that radio became a common place and people went out and bought it. And, you know, there were all kinds of. Stories about what what business model would this thing work at and how, uh, vicious it could be.
I just found an article in a magazine written in 1929, uh, titled radio curse or blessing. So, so, so change radio with the Internet, with AI, with whatever you want. At the end of the day, in the beginning, all new technologies that are radical are both fascinating to people and also scary. But at the end of the day, we just have to come to a, um, come to live with them, to use them, the way we need to use them.
We, we can’t have them rule over us. I mean, and human agency is what makes us happy. I’m happy because this book and read it or not. Um, if somebody constantly tells me, read this book, read, I won’t, uh, because I’m actually a defiant person. That’s another trait I, I share with my, uh, with my hearing. Um, anything on the face value.
So we need to first of all, from one hand, chill out. Don’t be scared from another hand, not to get. Blown up by the by the technology. We gotta take it. We gotta make it human. We gotta pick a pick and choose what we want. Um, it really, really angers me when I go and watch some, um, you know, television. I’m going to go with streaming services.
I’m Amazon Prime, whatever. And instead of telling me what are these genres that I can choose from, you know, they show me all these movies that I may or may not like. Yes, of course, they, they, they help me with, uh, with my choices, but it’s also, it’s sort of a little bit of, you know, it’s, I’m put off by it, it’s like, you know, what are they saying?
Why is this so important? Why is why is this book on the top of everything else? Is that because Amazon is making more money? Is it because is it really good? Um, so we are losing, you know, this, this choices, uh, that are coming together. I’m an engineer, you always optimize based on something. And unfortunately, the, the, um, the most of our social media and most of our, um, you know, most of what we see is, is, is optimized.
On eyeballs and you know, commercial and things like that. So I don’t expect them. I don’t expect Amazon or Google or Microsoft to be ethical beings. Okay, so they’re corporations. They have to make money. But I think as humans, we have to. Um, start taking control of your own, of our own, um, destiny, so to speak.
Um, so it’s, that’s, that’s the philosophy behind looking always at the past because that teaches us a lot.
Naji Gehchan: I want to give you now a word and I would love your first reaction to it. Sure. So the first one is leadership.
Afarin Bellisario: Okay. Leadership is to, you know, to take, um, a team of people, um, to a certain place. And there are many, many different kinds of, um, uh, styles of leadership, if you will.
I mean, uh, a military leader might be, uh, also an operative and convince people and take them somewhere. At some point, you know, you have to say, I’m not gonna, in the middle of a war, everybody’s shooting at us. We are not, we don’t have time to, to, uh, to, you know, discuss everything. But, uh, you know, to, to, to the collaborative as much as possible.
So, a leader is the person who sees the, the, it has a vision, has a, sees the future. A leader, the good leader will share that vision, the places to go with others and take the whole team there. So it’s not that the leader is, you know, uh, across the river, whereas everybody else is still in the, uh, in, in the other side.
So, uh, so it’s a leadership is to me, that’s, that’s what it means.
Naji Gehchan: What about innovation? Well,
Afarin Bellisario: innovation is coming up with something new. But to me, it’s always something new that does something better. Better, faster, cheaper. It’s just that, you know, we learn, we teach that to our teams. Um, why is this thing better?
I mean, it’s fun. For better, you’ve been in MIT. So at MIT, we deal with a lot of technology, and a lot of times, you know, it’s the technology looking for solutions. I always tell people, Fall in love with the problem, not with your solution and because, okay, it’s always good to be to, uh, to be curious and to work on something that’s we don’t know what it’s good for yet.
That’s science. That’s wonderful. And but, but, Innovation has to do with usability. You gotta make something that’s useful to people, um, and they can make, make their lives better. I mean, it could be something to, um, I don’t know, cure a disease, maybe make food better, whatever. So, uh, to me, somebody who comes up with a new fancy dish and it’s a very tasty dish, that’s innovation.
Naji Gehchan: What about startups?
Afarin Bellisario: Startups. Oh, yeah. We are a nation of startups. Um, startups, you know, to me, are people who have a passion, um, and, uh, decide that, uh, um, the, the tried and true ways, the operations or whatever doesn’t work for them for one reason or the other, and they start up. Something new. Um, again, it has hand in hand, hopefully with innovation.
You open a, um, a new bakery in a, um, in the, I mean, flour bakery in, in Boston, you know, flour way close to Sloan, couple of them. So, uh, You know, it’s opening a bakery is not a big deal. It’s not innovation, except that she came up with with a new way of approaching the problems that was innovated. And she started a startup.
to make that innovation possible, commercialize, make it accessible to people. So that’s a, that’s to me, that’s a, that’s a definition of startup. And
Naji Gehchan: the last one is spread love and organizations.
Afarin Bellisario: Spread love, I don’t know, spread passion, spread, cause everything in the world, love, uh, moves the world. And it’s not only love, love between two, two entity, two person, one person and an animal.
You know, love is love. You know, when, when we are thinking about somebody else besides ourselves or some other entities besides ourselves, um, that’s love. You know, and that’s, uh. That’s, uh, and, and that is the, that is what makes the, uh, the, that’s, that’s a huge, uh, motivation. Um, and if we have a, um, organization where people feel empathy towards each other, it’s a good organization.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom offering for leaders around the world?
Afarin Bellisario: What is it? Any advice for them?
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom for leaders around the world?
Afarin Bellisario: Stop thinking about, you know, making, you know, uh, I mean, if you look at people, all these leaders, they’re trying to create chasms between people so that they stay in power.
Um, people have more in common with each other. And then then differences. But if unfortunately, today’s leaders are, um, I mean, and they’re not leaders in my mind. They are. They are ours. The powers of being strong people. But, but those people and my, my advice to them is that, you know, wise up, you know, bring people together because otherwise we’re going to have.
You know, just going back to past and future. Technology is a tool and the more we make it may make it stronger. It also has the effect of potentially more danger. I mean, an atomic bomb is millions of times more, more dangerous than a knife. And, you know, now we have generative AI and all this other technologies.
We have tools of destruction and they got to be careful. They got to be very careful about, um, you know, uh, put you over the fire and, and making the differences worse.
Naji Gehchan: That’s a great way.
Afarin Bellisario: Differences. Yes.
Naji Gehchan: Yes, thank you so much for joining me today. Let’s bring people together. That’s a great way to finish our chat today.
Thanks again and congrats for your, for your book.
Afarin Bellisario: Thank you very much and thank you for having me. And yes, I love nothing better than trying to be a bridge between people. I think that’s, that’s what we need today.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Afarin Bellisario first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
In this episode, Naji engages in a deep conversation with Angela Justice, an award-winning Chief People Officer, executive coach, and neuroscientist. Angela shares her journey from consultant to Chief People Officer and founder of Justice Group Advisors, providing unique insights from her extensive experience in healthcare, biotech, and nonprofits. Angela’s curiosity about human behavior, which began with her passion for dance, has driven her to explore the concept of potential in individuals and teams. She discusses how her lifelong fascination with understanding people’s motives and capacities fueled her career in executive coaching, where she helps leaders identify and maximize their strengths while fostering strategic alignment in organizations.
Angela emphasizes the power of purpose-driven leadership and the importance of aligning individual motivations with organizational goals to cultivate high-performing teams. She shares that one of the most vital aspects of leadership is focusing on a larger purpose, especially in healthcare, where the mission centers on improving patient lives. In her view, humility is essential for leaders, allowing them to embrace diverse ideas and remain open to learning from their teams. Angela believes that fostering an environment of collaboration and unity around shared goals can significantly enhance both individual and team performance, driving sustainable success in organizations.
Angela also speaks about her journey in embracing her unique strengths, or “edge,” which she describes as critical to thriving in one’s career. She encourages leaders and professionals to discover what makes them unique and leverage that distinctiveness as a strategic advantage.
"Move up in your life, not just in your career. Think bigger about the legacy you want to leave, and you’ll bring more impact to the world."
MEET OUR GUEST Angela Justice Chief People Officer, executive coach, and trusted advisor.
Angela Justice is an award-winning Chief People Officer, executive coach, and trusted advisor to top executives. A neuroscientist by training, Angela began her career as a management consultant at McKinsey & Company before holding senior leadership positions in Medical Affairs, Patient Advocacy, and Human Resources. Most recently, she was the Chief People Officer and Head of Medical Affairs at TCRTherapeutics. Angela's diverse background and hands-on experience in the C-suites and boardrooms of healthcare, biotech, and nonprofit sectors provide her with a unique and informed perspective. Her deep understanding of human and organizational behavior enables her to drive sustainable change, helping leaders establish strategic alignment, address blind spots, and leverage strengths for exceptional results. As the Founder and Managing Director of Justice Group Advisors, Angela is dedicated to helping leaders earn and embrace their seat at the table.
You can download here the workbook to find your edge! Thank you Angela for this gift!
Learn more about Angela's work here.
Naji GEHCHAN
Naji, welcome to spread love and organizations. The healthcare leadership podcast, where we explore leadership with purpose.
I’m Naji, your host, joined today by Angela justice, an award winning Chief People Officer, executive coach and trusted advisor to top executives, a neuroscientist by training. Angela began her career as a management consultant at McKinsey, before holding senior leadership positions in medical affairs, patient advocacy and human resources. Most recently, she was the chief people officer and head of medical affairs at TCR therapeutics. Angela has diverse background and hands on experience in the C suites and boardrooms of healthcare, biotech and nonprofit sectors provide her with a unique and informed perspective. Her deep understanding of human and organizational behavior enabled her to drive sustainable change, helping leaders establish strategic alignment, address blind spots and leverage strength for exceptional results. As the founder and managing director of justice group advisors, Angela is dedicated to helping leaders earn and embrace their seat at the table. Angela, it’s
so good to see you again and have you with me today.
Angela Justice 1:13
Thank you so much, Naji. I really appreciate it. I’m so thrilled to join you here today.
Naji GEHCHAN 1:19
So I want to first hear more about your personal story and really what brought you to biotech, from neuroscience and now entrepreneurship, always, though, focused on healthcare leadership. So I’m really eager to learn more about you. Yeah,
Angela Justice 1:34
oh, thank you. You know, it’s, it’s really interesting. I think if I would have been asked, you know, when I was a kid. So I grew up in a small town in rural Minnesota, and if you would have asked me what I would be doing today, right? I don’t think one. I would never have even known the career of executive coach existed, that that would have never even entered my my consciousness. But knowing, you know that I’ve been able to weave together this career through, you know, academic research to management consulting, healthcare biotech, and now being able to advise and coach leaders and executives and teams in biotech and life sciences companies to help them achieve extraordinary results. And have, you know, a big impact in the world, it would just, I think, blow my young Minnesotan mind.
Naji GEHCHAN 2:31
So tell us a little bit more. How did that happen, like how, why neuroscience and how you ended up being so passionate about human behaviors, organizational behaviors, and you’ve touched through your career all those aspects, from actually building capabilities global leadership development to being Chief People Officer. I’m intrigued What drove you in that, and how do you see your current mission, being an exec coach, helping
leaders be better leaders in life. Science.
Angela Justice 2:59
Yeah, so, you know, I’ve always been just fascinated by human behavior. I’ve always been the person, you know, asking, Why did they do that? You know, how? How can we get them to do something different? What? What’s it going to take to make this change? All my life, right from the time I was very young, and in particular, one of the areas that always caught my curiosity was this concept of potential. You know, I was, I was a dancer when I was a kid, and throughout most of my young adult life, I was a dancer. And, you know, I even taught dance. So I was like an apprentice to my dance instructor for many years. And what I loved about that I love dancing, right? I love pushing myself to to be great. But what I loved even more was identifying those other dancers that had potential, and thinking about how you could help shape and nurture that, so that they could become the best they could become, so that the collective group of dancers, the company, the team, could really become great. And so this, this concept of potential, has always been something that’s been really like dear to my heart, and I’ve always thought a great deal about what it takes to both identify potential, but then also to shape and nurture and grow it. And that, I think, is really what led me to pursuing my my degree in psychology, and really understanding, or trying to understand the underpinnings of human behavior, and then ultimately taking that a step further and really trying to explore the neurobiological underpinnings, or neuro chemical underpinnings of behavior. Really wanted to understand this very deeply, but all throughout it’s been really driven by just this innate, intense curiosity for what makes people do, what they do, and how we can bring out the very best in people and help them achieve their very biggest goals.
Naji GEHCHAN 4:59
I love. So my first follow up question, and I’ll get back to potential, because I love how you framed it. But how do they do what they do? How do we as humans do what we do? And how can you as a leader
get the best of each one’s potential?
Angela Justice 5:13
Yeah, you know, I think I’m still trying to figure that out. To be frank, I think when you it’s one of those things, the more you know, the less you know right, or the more that you learn that you need to learn. But I think inherently, just having that curiosity about behavior really is seeking to understand why people do and continuously asking and exploring and kind of probing. You may not ever fully understand it, but at least it brings out, I think, a sort of empathy which also creates the platform where you can start making inroads, start having impacts, start understanding and then ultimately asking different and even better questions to move forward. So I don’t know that. I know why people do what they do. I do know that there are certain things that you can do consistently, or think about or ask consistently, that help shape behavior. And those are just some real basic behavioral science principles and techniques that I think are fairly universal, aligning incentives and thinking about reinforcing certain behaviors, both positively and negatively, and negatively meaning taking the bad stuff away, not not punishing. But I think there are certain concepts that that help us understand and help us influence. But boy, humans are still a mystery,
Naji GEHCHAN 6:34
and that’s what’s beautiful in being a humans and leading humans. And as you’ve been Chief People Officer, you’ve also led organization as an operational leader. Have you found the magic recipe to be able to foster this potential and make sure that you have a high winning team? And how have you, how do you think about this as an operational leader, but also when you were a chief people officer, how would you bring what are the key major aspects that you would look in within a leader, where you would know they would succeed with the team you have?
Angela Justice 7:10
You know, I think oftentimes what it comes down to is having a goal that’s bigger than oneself, and I think that happens both at the individual level, but also at the collective and team level or company level, right? If you’re focusing on something that is greater than you, something that really matters to you, right? And this is one of the reasons I love healthcare and life sciences so much, because we’re all in it, because deep down, we want to make the world a better place. We want to make things better and easier and safer and happier for humankind, and when you can really focus in on what it is that you’re doing and why, it propels action in different ways. Right? It motivates people to take the steps they need to take to get it done, because they’re not doing it just for themselves. They’re doing it for a bigger purpose, and that bigger purpose can be incredibly motivating, because it takes people away from, you know, themselves in this kind of egocentric perspective or perspective that they may have. So I think first off, as a leader, aligning understanding right the motivation, but then aligning to a higher purpose is something bigger than than just oneself. It sounds perhaps a little trite or cliche or obvious, but it’s critical, and it really works. So I think that’s really the first step.
Naji GEHCHAN 8:37
It is.
It is certainly critical, and certainly, as you said, in life science and healthcare, it might feel obvious, we certainly wake up every morning to bring innovation to patients and help help people, help us at some point live better. But as you said, it’s not that simple to wake up and remember that every day. So making sure that as a leader and as a team, we always bring this purpose beyond
any anything else, right,
like dynamics,
egos, what I think, what you think, I’m sure you’ve seen those throughout different experiences and big organizations, smaller biotechs, it always exists, but it’s really going back to, why are we doing what we’re doing? And at the end of the day, this is the main, big purpose that we’re here for. Yeah, exactly.
Angela Justice 9:30
And you know, so often you do, you know that, you know that’s your goal, you understand that that’s the company’s bigger purpose. And yet, to your point, you get stuck in these kind of squabbles, or, you know, turf wars happen, or conflict happens between teams, and to be able to take a step back, and I think it’s an active practice of taking a step back, but to do that and say, look, here’s the problem, right? Here’s the challenges that we’re facing. We’re trying to solve them because together. We actually want the same thing, and then looking at it as we’re in this together, right? We’re going to solve this challenge as collaborators, as, like, you know, allies, not as as people who are trying to compete or at different sides of the problem. We’re actually on the same side of
Naji GEHCHAN 10:16
the problem. Yeah, yeah, looking at competition outside, actually, versus inside and really in healthcare competition is just the diseases right that you’re trying to cure and fight for the patients. You said, you know, as you were saying, like daily practice, stepping back. Where do you place humility? Because I’m feeling the more you grow, the more you learn, the more you have to be humble and accepting that you don’t have the best ideas, and it’s actually the team who will bring the best solutions towards your purpose, have you? Is this something you consider, you think of as a leader, or as you coach leaders?
Angela Justice 10:54
Yeah, absolutely. I think that humility is is is critical, and it isn’t always a quality that is honored, right? I think, especially in in healthcare and in highly technical fields. Let’s say, when you’re building this tremendous expertise, you know, you think of the the surgeon or the physician who’s building this tremendous expertise, and literally have lives in their hands, right? Humility is is not necessarily the first thing that comes to mind is the competency that’s going to help them excel. And yet, when you’re leading in organizations, humility is absolutely critical, because to get the best solutions, to get the best answers, to move the organization closer to its bigger goals and bigger purpose. It requires the collective effort of everyone, and that means people need to be able to take a bit of a step back and be open to hearing and learning and collaborating with others. So inherently, that requires a bit of humility. It requires confidence too. But I think those two things can actually go hand in hand.
Naji GEHCHAN 12:04
So when you think about all the experience you had in the different roles and now being an entrepreneur and executive coach, have you set intentionally the direction of your career and where you are today? And I love that it started with the love of dancing and finding potential. So what were you intentional on all those steps?
Angela Justice 12:25
Well, given that when I was a kid, I thought I was going to be a trapeze artist, right? That was like my career goal, no, I can say with confidence, set the direction. It’s definitely taken some pivots and some turns, but I think that kind of guiding principle throughout has always been, you know, this, this desire to really learn more about people and have an impact on the world in a way that was somewhat meaningful, and healthcare, life sciences, that’s always been a guiding Passion. You know, I always approach to those, okay, directionally, where do I want to go? And kind of thinking, you know, if I can think, like, three moves ahead, then the next move doesn’t have to be the defining move. It just has to get me closer to the ultimate kind of goal. And so I’ve always tried to take that approach right. I want to be directionally correct. I want to have an idea of where things are heading. But I also want to have a little bit of optionality built in, so that I can take advantage of things as they come along, and be very open minded, really, in opportunities as they present.
Naji GEHCHAN 13:38
So I want to double click on this, as you’re obviously an exec coach with leaders, you’ve been a Chief People Officer also, and I mentor a lot of early career professionals too, and who are at different stages, but even advanced leaders, sometimes They’re more into focusing on today and the immediate job or the next promotion, versus taking direction exactly what you said, like directionally in the right way, and what I want to really kind of achieve in my life, versus, you know, my next career promotion, or the next 10% which I’m not saying is not important, but I’d love your thoughts about, how do you navigate this? And I’ve seen it in different countries, being very different. I can tell you, in France and some countries in Europe, it’s different than what I’ve seen also in the US of this, you know, like high stake of a title and, you know, a promotion, versus, like you know your purpose of the job and the impact you have. So I’d love to get your thoughts off. You obviously been a people leader for several years. Yeah,
Angela Justice 14:52
I think, I think you’re right. It, it is. It’s a tough it’s a tough topic in some ways, right? Because. There’s a lot of personal identity wrapped up in one’s career. And I think in the US, we see that in particular, like a lot of one’s sense of self worth comes from their title, their job, their role and and I think you know, what I like to encourage people to do again is to take a little bit of a step back and think about what it is that they really care about, what they really want to accomplish, what they want their legacy to be for their lives, and that isn’t just the next job. That isn’t the next type, right, that’s going to be taking a much broader, more expansive view. And when people understand or have a bit of clarity on what it is that really matters to them and where they want to head again, directionally, it liberates them a little bit to think more expansively about their careers. And look, I’m all for advancement. I think, you know, it’s, it’s wonderful to be ambitious and want to move up in organizations, but I think the concept of moving up in organizations is a bit missing the mark. I think what really people need to focus on is moving up in their lives and really moving closer to their ultimate goals. And when you think, you know, a little bit further down the line than just the next job, it also it opens again, it opens that aperture so you can be a lot more opportunistic about things that you take advantage of, right? So if you’re thinking, I want this next promotion, you might be laser focused on getting that and that job, and then if you don’t get it, you’re going to feel kind of bad. But if you’re more thinking about I want this ultimately, and these are the skills, experiences and connections, I need to get there. Then all of a sudden you see lots of different opportunities open up, and lots of different steps Open up. They might be in terms of advancement. They might be a job that moves you, you know, quote, unquote, up the ladder. But it might be about broadening your skill set. It might be broadening your experiences. And again, those just open you up for newer and different experiences. It kind of takes the pressure off, but it also just really makes you a much more rounded, valuable professional.
Naji GEHCHAN 17:14
I love what you said. Move up in your life. I will. I wrote it down. I’ll always remember this as a great advice for all our listeners, and one of the powerful questions you asked I always used that is, what do you want your legacy to be in life? Think, when you start thinking through this lens, you open up, as you said, to different different types of perspective and really the impact that you want to have on others and on the word as you live it. When we also discussed, you talked about potential today, we also discussed about amplifying your edge. So I think it’s related to potential. Can you share a little bit more your philosophy about this? Yeah, yeah.
Angela Justice 17:59
So you know, this is a concept that I I really honed, I guess, or really explored, when I was at McKinsey. So I was a management consultant at McKinsey and Company, and I was what they called a non traditional hire. So that meant I had a PhD, not an MBA. And, you know, look, I knew very little about business. I had run a dance studio. I had done a few little entrepreneurial things, so I had a business inclination, but I didn’t have traditional business skills or knowledge. And I remember, you know, the first month year, even at McKinsey, working so hard just to fit in, just to become more like my MBA colleagues, and it was exhausting, but it also wasn’t working. I mean, I wasn’t like, being revered as, like, this amazing hire, like, Thank goodness they brought me in. I knew that there was a gap that I had to bridge, and I wasn’t going to bridge it by trying to be like everyone else. So what I did instead was I thought a lot about what I brought uniquely to the table that gave me an edge, and what I came up with was, look, you know, they didn’t hire me to be an MBA. They have those that hired me because I was a scientist. They hired me because I was a behavioral scientist, and I could come up with different ideas and hypotheses and ways of helping our clients, helping the companies that we were supporting achieve their goals, by applying my knowledge of behavioral science. So rather than, you know, trying to fit in, I started to hone my edge, which was I was a behavioral science that approached questions differently. I took a very experimental approach to the work we are doing. And when I started approaching the work that way and really talking about it like, I started talking about myself that way and really showing up by bringing those behavioral concepts to the table, everything changed. Now, all of a sudden, I wasn’t, you know. The PhD who didn’t have an MBA, I was the behavioral scientist who was bringing you know, novel insights and approaches to our clients that would really help them make the strategies that we were developing stick. So I always think about coming up with what is your edge? What is it that makes you unique, different, valuable, gives you that competitive advantage that will help you, help your clients, your company, your team, whomever it is, achieve again, those bigger goals.
Naji GEHCHAN 20:31
Well, this is a great advice. As we think about diversity, I imagine also within our teams, diversity of thoughts, of capabilities, so as an organization and as leader, embracing that and being open for those who we brought for their difference and not trying to make them fit the mold, right? Is a great learning
Angela Justice 20:52
Absolutely. I mean, it really at the heart of it that really is a lot of what diversity and inclusion is about. It’s recognizing those unique perspectives, experiences, talents, skills, ideas that people bring to the table that are different. But so often, I see this with leaders all of the time, and I made the mistake myself, right? You want to fit in, and that was not what McKinsey wanted from me. They wanted me to stand out. They wanted me to bring those different experiences, and that’s so true in organizations as well. It’s really easy to want to fit in, but you’re there because you have something to offer. You need to learn how to articulate it, how to tell that story, and how to make it apply. But bringing those unique gifts to the table is exactly what makes organizations.
Naji GEHCHAN 21:44
So I will pivot now to a section where I’ll give you a word, and I’d love your reaction to it. The first one is leadership. Well,
Angela Justice 21:53
the first thing that comes two things come to mind, actually, one is legacy. And partly because we were just talking about the importance of leaving a legacy and envisioning your legacy, I think using that to shape your leadership journey. The other thing that comes to mind is followership, because I think it’s really two sides of the coin, but I personally like to focus a lot more on the notion of followership than just leadership, because I think when you think about others, when you think about the people that you are leading, you need to think about why they should be following you, what it is that you’re doing to help them, support them, elevate them, pull them together, and again, back to potential, how you can recognize the potential of your team to really maximize that for themselves, but for each other and collectively as well. So legacy and followership.
Naji GEHCHAN 22:48
So the second one you just mentioned is potential.
Angela Justice 22:52
Yeah, well, so what do I think of when I think of potential? You know, I just think of maximizing all ways, shape and form, and really try to understand potential, you know, it’s interesting, right? Because you’ll have people who have, maybe similar backgrounds, experiences opportunity, and yet some people just seem to have limitless success, and others seem to hit a ceiling. And, you know. So I think if we think about what it is that’s necessary to unlock that potential, for people, you know, again, to me, it comes back to having a bigger goal, something that’s bigger than oneself. I think especially for a leader trying to understand and unlock that potential is is really important. What about coaching, coaching, you know coaching. When I hear coaching or think of coaching, I think of it as just an incredibly valuable tool, a gift in some ways. I’ve, you know, had the great pleasure honor of both being coached and coaching. I will tell you earlier in my career, I wasn’t as convinced about the value of coaching, and then I got a great coach, and I saw Wow. What you know? What can really happen when you have somebody who is asking thought provoking questions, who is challenging you, pushing you, supporting you, guiding you again, the unlock for potential there can be can be absolutely phenomenal. I’ve experienced it myself by having a great coach, and I continue to get coached. It’s an investment that I make in myself. I think it’s absolutely worth it, and I have the great honor and privilege of coaching some really exceptional leaders and seeing the value it creates.
Naji GEHCHAN 24:41
The last one is spread love and organizations.
Angela Justice 24:44
I love this. You know, when I think of that, what immediately comes to mind is that quote. I believe it’s Maya Angelou who says, you know, and I’ll butcher the actual quote probably, but it’s something to the effect of people will forget what you said. They’ll forget what you. Did, but they won’t forget how you made them feel. And I think if leader, if as leaders, we can bear that in mind, and we can think about how we want to show up with empathy, with compassion, with love, right for the teams, the companies, the people that we’re working with, that creates a legacy. I mean that really, that changes everything. It creates a movement. It creates a legacy, and it unlocks the potential of individuals, teams and organizations,
Naji GEHCHAN 25:34
any final word of wisdom for leaders around the world.
Angela Justice 25:40
Mm, well, you know, I’m not sure if I have any particular words of wisdom, I will make an offer. Because I think a lot of you know, a lot of this really requires a lot of deep thinking and introspection, like, really, to maximize one’s own potential and that of your teams, you gotta really think about it. You gotta reflect and and really, you know, try to figure out what it is that you bring that is your unique edge, and how you can help others find theirs. And so I actually created for your listeners a worksheet that will help them identify their edge. So it’s a it’s just a simple worksheet with a number of prompts. They can just spend some time thinking about what it is that makes them uniquely gifted, qualified, differentiated, and how they can start communicating that edge and bringing it to their companies, their teams, their workplaces, and then they can use it to also help others do the Same. So hopefully the unlock right of potential here can can be, can be pretty magnified.
Oh, that is awesome. Naji, thank you so much for doing for doing it. I will certainly have it on the episode page with also, if you allow your contact so people can use it and ask the questions if they have, it’s really awesome that they will be able to practice what we talked about and discovering and unlocking our edge. I’ll certainly do it, and I’ll loop back with you on it.
Yeah, I’ll love to hear what you come up with. It’s a really fun exercise. It’s one that, you know, I think it’s worth revisiting from time to time, because obviously things evolve, but my clients that have done it have really found that it can have some pretty tremendous impact.
Naji GEHCHAN 27:29
Awesome. Well, great. Thanks
so much again for joining me and being with me today on this chat. And I look forward to doing the exercise and continuing our discussions offline, too. Thanks again for being with me.
Angela Justice 27:41
Thank you, Naji. Thank you so much, and thank you to all of your listeners.
Naji GEHCHAN 27:47
Thanks for listening to the show. For more episodes, make sure to subscribe to spreadlavio.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts, lest inspires change together and make a positive impact in healthcare one story at a time you.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Angela Justice first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I’m Naji, your host, joined today by Rebecca Young, Corporate Vice President at FedEx Corporation and leads Operations Science and Advanced Technology.
In her role, Rebecca is responsible for driving critical aspects of FedEx innovation and transformation strategy, including scaling up robotics and automation, uh, technology, autonomous vehicles, decision science, and electromobility. She sits on the FedEx Strategic Management Committee, a C suite leadership group that sets the strategic direction for the enterprise.
As an expert in both advanced technology and logistics operations, she frequently speaks at high profile industry forums including Fortune, Word50, Reuters Momentum, CES, the AI Summit Silicon Valley, uh, and several more. In March 2024, Rebecca was recognized by Reuters event as one of the top 20 trade blazing women in enterprise AI.
who are demonstrating real influence, impact, and leadership in large scale enterprise AI deployment. Rebecca joined two public boards in 2023, Royal Caribbean Group and Columbus McKinnon, bringing to both her technology and innovation expertise and strategic perspective. She has also previously served as Board of Director for the Mid South 2022, and most recently, she is the author of What’s Rule?
Think differently about success and cultivate a happy life. A book that inspires readers to challenge the status quo, dive deep, think differently, and charter their unique path to success. Rebecca, it’s great to see you again and have you with me today.
Yeah, good morning, Yunaochi. So good to be on your podcast.
Naji Gehchan: I’m eager first, before going to your book that I really enjoyed, I want to first hear your personal story from childhood in rural China to corporate boardrooms. What’s in between the lines of your inspiring journey?
Oh, I, I would just say it’s a very long arc. And, um, I grew up, like, if I rewind five decades ago, and I grew up in rural China without running water or electricity.
And, uh, really to see right now, um, I am sitting as a, uh, Fortune 50 senior executive and a board director. Um, my life journey begins with, uh, a lot of difficulties in early life that, um, no money and not even, and not even enough food to go around in the village, but plenty of that. And then I went to Shanghai, uh, reunited with my parents at the age of seven, but that’s the difficult journey start with me having, um, just diagnosed dyslexia.
And, uh, had a huge challenges in school, even being viewed as the most stupid kid, um, like by the principal, which was like a really harsh for a child to actually experience. And so I had a tremendous struggle trying to fit in and, uh, um, and that lasted for many years until my mother, probably at the age of 12 me.
Told me the biggest life lesson. Um, she basically just said, I know you’re miserable, but you’re actually really smart and if you didn’t like what you experienced, you should have fight with all your mind. And, um, if not, your choice is accept the reality and be miserable. Which choice do you really choose?
That was a reckoning moment. Just made me realize my young self realized. But in life, you always have to fight and for a different outcome. So that ignited me. I eventually went to an elite Chinese university, which is Fudan University. And then that actually in a very different period, I was an accidental English major.
Um, but that was the early 90s when China was under through a tremendous amount of pressure. Opening up to the Western world. So guess what? English is the best golden key to, um, career opportunities than to exposure. So, um, I, I did many interesting engagement did management consulting for British companies to.
Enter into the Chinese market, and that somehow also and as well as an American delegation as their English interpreter, um, and that really ignited of my American dream. So, 96, I pack up my two suitcase had a hundred dollars in my pocket and a scholarship. To an MBA program, and so that’s how I actually just had the courage at that time to had a one way ticket, which took all my family’s kind of savings and my dad literally back me at the airport.
Please don’t go because we did not know anybody there. And by the way, that’s a one way ticket. You do understand if you fail. I know we wouldn’t have money or means to get you back, but I was young in my mid 20s. I was like, I wanted to pursue the American dream. I finished two years. I had my MBA, um, had a lot of, um, landing a summer internship with, uh, FedEx for as a marketing intern and did not know that it turned into a 25 year amazing career journey.
And pretty much, um, took me from marketing to operations to customer experience to advanced technology and eventually lead it to the scene. 1 of the senior most position at FedEx. And so that’s a little bit. Um, I’ll call my journey and, uh, um, it’s it’s just incredible.
Naji Gehchan: Wow. It certainly is. And, uh, you’re, it’s, it’s really an amazing journey of resilience, grit.
As you said, uh, you, you said really strong words, uh, in your, you know, beginning struggle to fit in and how, I love it. I remember we had a conversation with, uh, our friend Gail also, and I, I wrote down actually what you said that you said again today, like at your lowest point of your life, you have a choice.
Accept it and stay miserable or fight and change it. And I think this is part of the thread you keep in the book. So if we go, uh, to, uh, to, to your book, What Rules, uh, tell us more about it. Tell us an overview and why you wrote it, uh, to, to start with. And then we can go and dig into the rules themselves.
What
motivates you to write books? Yeah, that’s a really a great question. First of all, I mean, I never really imagined I would write a book and what motivates me was one of a conversation I had with another executive in when he told me he wrote a book to multiply the kind of reach and effect. And that inspired me to say, there are many people I feel fortunate in my life and my way of paying it forward.
Is to share wisdom, share lessons, learn to inspire others to be their best, and so that was the motivation to write a book, and you may ask why the name what rules Gail actually had a huge part of it. She has been my amazing executive coach. So one day we were just having dinner and she asked a genuine question to me, which is Rebecca, you know, everybody.
I mean. How what you accomplish is very huge. And even for some Native Americans, that’s harder to achieve to your level. And especially as women in the U. S., we always needed to follow specific rules and specific ways of working in corporate. So how did you, as a person coming from China, figure out the rules and just advance?
And I was very stunned by her question. So I, the next two words came out of my mouth was, what rules am I supposed to follow any rules? And, uh, it took a gal by surprise. And I think she couldn’t, she burst into a laughter and couldn’t stop for a few minutes. And then she recognized, she said, Oh, my God, you break the glass ceiling because.
You didn’t not really like like view the those rules as constraint. You don’t even understand it. So by not understanding you, you played your own game. And that’s how you break through. And that really inspired me to use what rules as a book, book name, because I think in life, a lot of times there are tons of unseen, um, Like, um, good meaning rules that, uh, guide how we do and, and what, who we should become.
But in the end, we kind of live our life by someone else rules by the conventional rules. And, uh, I always believe like life is too short to live based on other people’s expectations and. Um, it should always, like, be much more fun and fulfilling to embrace yourself, live a genuine, authentic life, and, uh, and not following any of those rules.
I mean, for example, I just thought to give you one example, I would say if you ask most people, what is your goal? Like what? What is your goal in corporate? And most people say make lots of money from the corporate letters, right? Our success tends to be defined by conventional rules as, uh, the wells and this social standards, but very seldom did people ask.
Is that your real goal? I mean, what is your real goal in in life? And, um, even for the industries you pursue, right? Or the business you do. Are you really genuinely happy? So those are the kind of more profound, the common questions I explore in the book and not to preach any ideas, but as a genuine kind of sharing and exploration to say, let’s dig deeper.
Let’s dive in. Let’s figure out like our passion and what we want to do in life.
Naji Gehchan: So let’s, let’s dive deeper and talk about what rules I love the title and and the story and I remember you said break the breaking the glass ceiling. I remember you used the term also in the book and in our discussion track the bamboo ceiling.
As it relates, I think, to what you left. But let’s go there. Let’s talk about The six rules you have in the book, can you share them first with us, and then we can probably dig in one in particular that you think we should prioritize above any other.
Yeah, so I identified the six rules we commonly follow.
And there are the goals rule, the strengths rule, the opportunity rule, the limit rule, the either or rule, and the happiness rule. So starting with the goals, typically, in, by any normal convention, especially Asian culture, the success of a life goal is to make lots of money and achieve high social status.
And what. We if we dig deeper, sometimes we could achieve those goals, but miss the mark. Does that really make us happy? What is our passion? So the ghost rule is really trying to dig deeper into our inner self, our passion, because when we start our passion, our life naturally project to a more happy and fulfilling path.
And the second part rule is the stress rule. And, uh, particularly as a female, and we tend to have a tendency of the negative buyers. Like, every time we have a survey about ourselves, like, my, my mind will immediately go into, like, ignore all the, all the good things said about me, what are the, the kind of weaknesses, and immediately dive in.
And that’s pretty good. That helps me address some of the weaknesses. Gradually in life. I realized that if I spend all my time addressing only the weaknesses, I missed the opportunity of like exemplify my like amplify my students so I can break through and for example, my current role is very unique role at the intersection of technology and application.
That is where I find. Um, the students actually project me to a totally different space. You have a ton of technology like executives. You have a ton of operations executives, but the combination of the two brings more power because. The intersection of technology and business application is where the value is generated.
So, that teaches me the lesson about don’t spend all the time trying to address your weaknesses. You want to making sure weakness doesn’t become an object of your success, but you needed to actually spend more energy to amplify the strength. So to break out and to get unstuck. Um, the third rule, which is opportunity rules, and in a nutshell, we always say opportunity is luck, but is it really?
So I would say two things. Um, one is, do you recognize when the opportunity actually show up? Second is, do you have the courage to take the opportunity? Because that comes with risk, right? So dig deeper. And oftentimes that builds, if you’re clear about your passion and your strengths, then you are more likely to recognize the right opportunity and be willing to take them.
And the fourth rule, interestingly, is limits rule or the failure rule. By taking the opportunity, you may fail at some point. And then doubt the decisions we make and we, I, what I, I want to share from my experience is limit or failure is temporary. If you don’t try hard enough and fail at something and always in the zone, then that’s very hard to break through.
That’s more like a comfort zone. Right? So we needed to actually be more intentional about pushing the boundaries, pushing the limit. And not to be governed by. Okay. That’s a safe zone. So that’s a force on high level is a force or the last. Then the 5th 1 is either oral, which is something we always struggle is, um, do we will have a work life balance and as a mother as a woman, and I struggled with that at the beginning.
I had a very unique past that. I literally at FedEx, I will say it’s two, um, I would divide it in half. So the first 10 years I spent as a mother raising two young children, and I did not intentionally go for a promotion because I was trying to really weigh what my priority in life, which is Um, being the best mother I can to my kids and spend time with them and that, that is because I couldn’t reverse my kids age.
I can always pick up my career, but I couldn’t at the same time. It doesn’t mean that I just like bamboo growing shoots. It doesn’t mean that I’m just like stand still. I, I spend the 10 years trying to study. Every aspect about FedEx business from marketing to product development to technology to back end infrastructure operations, customer experience, et cetera.
So, I was using the time to build my strengths while spending a lot of time with my boss. So, the next 10 years, it just, it jump started my career. I had a very fast trajectory all the way to the senior leadership. So, that taught me that in life, everyone makes different decisions. But it’s about integration, integrating what’s important to you along with career.
So that is a, it’s not an easy or it’s more like, can we find a path that reflect your different stages of your life, different reflecting your priority. And the last rule is happiness rule, which is my favorite. And so I grew up poor and my, my parents, the only criteria for me is, am I happy in that? That has such a profound, like, impact on how I view life is not being viewed as the status or the money.
It’s more genuinely, did I live a happy life? And, uh, that also challenge our goal. Sometimes, oftentimes, The conventional wisdom is you right now you celebrate later, but do we miss the opportunity to view life as a journey celebrating everything along the journey so you don’t like to delay your happiness until you reach that elusive everlasting goal.
Like, because if we, we kind of have the mindset about delay now, but like the growing out in the celebratory later, it feels like you always will chase the next goal because there’s always someone more successful, more powerful, have more money. Right? So I want to challenge that to say, if we’re authentic to ourselves.
Can we really smell all the roses along the way and be happy while growing, while challenging the new norm? So that’s in a nutshell about the six rules I wrote in my book.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much, Rebecca, for sharing them. It’s a lot of wisdom and powerful, um, Uh, powerful, uh, pieces you gave us, uh, I really want to dig into all of them, but I’m gonna do the hard exercise.
You said happiness is your favorite, and that was my next question. Maybe not saying the favorite, but the one that you would prioritize above most. Is there one of them that you would prioritize above most as you think about your life?
Um, I definitely thought like I will prioritize the happiness like the in terms of the most it’s it’s more profound than just say the meaning of being just talk about daily happiness, et cetera.
It’s more reflection about what brings joy in life, because when we are joyful, we are more productive. They always say fund the job. Like, which align with your passion, then the job doesn’t become a job. If you’re so happy, you’re so involved into it. So happiness to me is the summary about all the rules.
It centers around that you live a purpose driven life, that you find the right integration for you regarding what you are doing to your passion, to the family life. It centers around you have enough confidence. And in the clarity that you are not swinged by a lot of other factors, like, for example, even I take teenager for these days, a lot of social media impact.
A lot of times you look at all these fabulous digital life of people, they have the perfect life, perfect body, perfect everything, perfect vacation, right? And that that amount of pressure is real. And so in order to be happy, you have to really have a solid foundation about the self to say, this is the life that’s an authentic real life for me that I, I am happy about it.
And as we grow older in professionals, there’s also a level of define enough. So I love the book psychology of money. And I remember there was one. Um, kind of chapter talk about a big yard party and with all the hugely successful rich people in this, but there’s a writer there and people ask, how do you feel he’s that I’m I’m perfectly content here because I have something they don’t have.
And people are like, oh, he’s sending enough. I can define my enough in life from a material perspective. So, so that’s why, like, I put everything together in order to be happy. It takes a lot to recognize yourself, your passion, recognize that the things you are doing aligns with your goals, recognizing you have the confidence to embrace life as it is, that you have the resilience, you have the grit, you You actually also happening by walking towards your goals and celebrating everything along the way.
So that to me is a very profound kind of way of summarizing a happy, fulfilling life to say, do you feel like you’re joyful? Do you feel you’re happy? That’s a hard question. So, Najee, if I ask you, how do Are you happy?
Naji Gehchan: I was going to ask you this question, but you’re bringing really an amazing point. And I, um, you know, and that was my question too.
And I can answer also your question. I’m not going to avoid it. Uh, but, but what, is there any tips or what did you do or recommend for leaders as a work to detach ourselves From what, like the, really the title of your book, like what truths, as you said, because I feel like several times. You know, we are in this craziness of doing good, doing fast, being ambitious, uh, trying to get to the next thing, making it good and even better.
And when you get, you want to do more, you know? And I think for some of us, it’s really built into how we function and within a purpose. So, for example, I, I can share with you, we know one another, like my, my purpose is to make, uh, life better for patients who needs it, developing drug, bring it to market.
It’s really my purpose, but you mix it to ambition and then it becomes, as you said, sometimes, uh, you, I talk a lot with, uh, with leaders where exactly, as you said, you are in this constant pursuit of something that might be better at some point and not taking the step back and say, well, Let’s enjoy each step of the journey.
And in the several interviews that I’ve had with, uh, uh, with leaders who have got to this place with really amazing careers, every single person told me the same thing we did not enjoy as much as we should. the journey and celebrating the small steps that we’ve done that actually are way more enjoyable than whatever job we achieved at the end.
So any tips or how do you do it to force yourself to change those rules, as you said, and find your happy place and your personal garden, as you call it in the, in your book?
Yeah, that’s a great question. So I heard that a lot. Also when people hugely successful people looking back, Would it be? I wish I actually spend more time enjoying the journey versus the never ending to go chasing.
So I think the kind of mental model we can think about it is a hamster on the wheel so you can always like a move, right? And but if it’s continuous, you never really, that’s a never ending goal. And we don’t want to be that. And first of all, I will say ambition is actually great. If we’re not ambitious people, we will not be aware.
We are right now. So having a goal in life have an inspiration. Ambition is, is amazing. But don’t feel that as the end goal is the only place you can celebrate. You want to break it down to say, okay, if I am, I view as my life as as a journey towards the destination. And can I just. Be more intentional about small wings along the way that gets me there.
So for each step, when you’re intentional. You want to be, um, and then you’re happy. So I’ll give you 1 example. Um, there was, uh, 1 summer, I attended a famous consulting companies, some, like, 1 of the summit. And it was hugely successful people. So the 1st exercise is pick 2 cards. And they have poster cards.
One depict what you feel right now. One depict what you feel hopefully in 18 months and never like almost universally. Most people pick now is like a lot of struggle. You can see the images. Lots of mad messy doing and so it was almost universal and interesting. I was at the stage. I was pretty content.
That moment, so I picked in my first picture. As a beach with hammock next to the palm tree. And then my next one is hot air balloon. They were stunned. They were like, that’s your first image. I said, yeah, I work so hard. I recently got a promotion the last 18 months. I got a promotion. I joined the two public boards.
So I feel like I should have a moment of celebration before I chase my next goal. It doesn’t mean I was standing still. But it doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t immediately discard that was like, Oh, what’s my next goal? So it boils down to be in being intentional about celebrating those moments that are being team with people you care.
Also, you love because I the joy of my life aside from a successful career is my beautiful family. I have a loving husband, two wonderful children. Cool when is a senior in college when it’s going to college? I’m so proud of them. We celebrate all the moment. They are proud of me. So, those brings additional joy to that journey.
I,
Naji Gehchan: I love it. Uh, and you’re, you know, as you’re sharing this great example about, uh, the picture, I, I feel like you, you were the only one actually who said this. And sometimes you have this pressure about, well, no, I, I have to be. like, you know, this other image of, you know, struggle to end up at a certain time in a happy place where actually you’re, it’s a great reflection on saying, well, let’s celebrate the small milestones instead of only, uh, the, the end point, which for many people like us, I think, It never like the end point keeps on evolving to be more and more.
So sometimes you end up like, I
mean, that’s why I said what the rules, the rules is you always like the bigger, the job title, the bigger, the paycheck, the more wealth anybody gets, it’s the happiest place, but the reality, if you challenge that, it was like. Is that a really?
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. Yeah. So can I ask you, how do you, what’s your definition of success that you as a leader and a person today, how do you define it?
I, I view the success is I’m a better today than yesterday. So it’s the continuous improvement is the ultimate definition of success. Is life is a journey. It’s about continuously learning, continuously experimenting, continuously be better. So, if I look back today versus last year, I can see I, I have new skills.
I, I actually mentored more people help other people. I touch more people to be more successful. I advanced a technology for that that actually will be hugely important for the business. I view that as success. So for me, the success, interestingly, is not a job title or the social status. It’s meaningful progress along the way, as well as continuously improvement of myself.
I guess that’s a non conventional. Definition of success. It’s a great one. Meaningful
Naji Gehchan: progress. It’s a great one. Rebecca, another question that I, you know, I was thinking as I read this and as you were talking today, as a leader within your organization, how do you apply those rules for your teams? So how are you translating all this wisdom and developing your people, hiring them, managing them, growing them, managing their performance?
I’d love to hear your translation of this.
So that is very important question is what the rules translate is create the most positive, nurturing environment. For team team members to achieve their best, which means encourage them to identify their strength. I mean, in my group, we do strength finders. So once you actually go through the exercise, you recognize everybody’s strengths is different.
So finding their strengths, um, elevate them in terms of giving them the right assignment. And, uh, and give them, like, um, I think really stretching assignment that were take them outside of their failure, like, outside of their limits and, uh, experiencing new potential, give them a joy and encourage them to embrace failures as opportunities.
So one of the whole cornerstone of culture, I help instigate academics is. Quality driven management whenever the key principle is view failures as opportunities. So, um, if you view that as a kind of guiding principle, then you give people the ability to fail small, fail fast in order to succeed and pushing their boundaries and limits.
And so I, so all of these roles actually play very well at work. Is help team members identify their strengths, give them aspirational goals and also as leaders be okay with sometimes the failures, not a huge failures, but have the ability to tolerate the necessary failures in order to have a breakthrough is a huge like foundation for a successful team, reaching their full potential.
Naji Gehchan: I would love now, uh, give you a word and getting a first reaction to it.
That’s fine.
Naji Gehchan: The first one is leadership.
Leadership is, uh, not, uh, it’s about bringing the best from, um, everybody.
Naji Gehchan: What about work life balance?
I wouldn’t use the word of balance. I think, like I said, the rule is the integration. When you look at the balance, it means almost like zero sum game. When you integrate work life, you have a much more positive kind of attitude towards challenges and, uh, just tackling the challenges and it makes the best out of the situation.
Naji Gehchan: The third one is touchstone.
So the touchstone gives like a me and I hope the readers orientation around the most important things in life and in my book there’s a whole section kind of dedicated to that is exploring deeply, dive deeper, exploring yourself, exploring your passions, strengths, and the core.
kind of opportunities that excites you and that leads to better orientation about what we want to accomplish in life and also do the trade off of what you can afford to lose and what you cannot. So making the decision that most relevant to each individual.
Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread love and organizations.
I think that’s all about creating the most positive, nurturing environment as I said. that helps people achieving their full potential.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, Rebecca, for leaders around the world?
Um, I would just encourage, um, like listeners, if, indulge me to read the book and identify, um, to, to actually break free from some of the conventional constraints and build a clarity about the passion, about the strength.
And also, uh, have, like, charter your unique path to success. That’s my final word.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Rebecca. I certainly recommend it too. And I love how you’re framing it, breaking from the conventional rules that we’ve set in our minds and really in this pursuit of, uh, of the breed rules we should set for ourselves.
Thank you so much again. It’s been a real pleasure to, uh, to see you again and have this conversation and congrats on your book.
Um, thank you. And, uh, my pleasure to be on your podcast.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Rebecca Yeung first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
Naji Gehchan: I’m Naji, your host, joined today by Karim Benadji, Chief Medical Officer at Inspirno.
Karim has nearly 20 years of experience in biopharmaceutical oncology drug development and most recently served as chief medical officer at GV20 Therapeutics. He previously served as senior vice president head of clinical development and operations for At IO oncology, where he oversaw the development of early and late phase portfolio assets, including the FDA approval of lead Gobi in collateral carcinoma and the phase three sunlight that led to the FDA approval of long serve in combination with the vaccine.
Bifacizumab in patients with metastatic colorectal cancer. Prior to joining Tayo Oncology, Karim spent 13 years with Eli Lilly in oncology development roles of increasing responsibility, including overseeing several immuno oncology programs. Karim received his MD from the University of Oran and completed his oncology fellowship in the Universities of Oran and Paris.
He also received a Master of Science in Pharmacology and Therapeutics in Oncology from the University of Paris. Karim, it’s so great to see you again and have you with me today.
Thank you for the invitation, Nadji. Pleased to be here today.
Naji Gehchan: I would love first to hear more about your personal story. What brought you to medicine first and now being an executive in the biotech industry?
Karim Benhadji: Yeah, so it’s really an interesting question. So I was born and raised in Algeria. I grew up there and when I was really in school, uh, also including in high school, I was really, I had a passion for math, for science, biology, but also computer science. At the end of high school, I was really wondering what to do and I had really strong attraction to technology, uh, computer science, and you had to make a, to make a choice at the time.
And I opened myself to, to suggestion that medicine might. The, uh, good option for me because I like science, uh, because in the field you have research and so on. Um, but I didn’t really know much about it, uh, at the time. But I took really the risk to say, okay, let’s try medicine and see what could happen.
And I really loved it there. So I did my, um, I got my medical degree and then the question after that was, Okay, What specialty to pick up, right? Oncology at the time was really a confidential specialty, uh, not many options for patients at the time. And I had the opportunity to discuss with oncologist, oncologist that got, uh, uh, her specialty, uh, just around that time.
And I said, okay, this might be a really interesting. So let’s go there and see. And really, really quickly when I started my residency in oncology, I really loved it. I mean, I mean, you have really sick patient, you’re taking care of them, but you have the aspect that the field is really evolving very quickly.
You have the research aspect that you are really trying to look for innovation, new solutions for patients. So I really loved that. And I said, okay, this is really, I really, I really like it. And, uh, I would continue in this field. So I continued that and then, uh, moved after that to France to continue my training in oncology.
And because of a research aspect in oncology, I went to the lab and then spent one year in lab doing research. So that was a really, uh, passion for me, really research and looking for new, for innovation for patients. And after that, I was really facing dilemma what to do going back to, uh, clinical practice, uh, doing a PhD after the master, or I got randomly a cold call from a recruiter who was looking for physicians to go to industry.
And then I was introduced an opportunity for Lily to be a clinical research physician. And then I went Entered the industry at the time, I was really curious about industry because as physicians we’re not really export the industry. Your exposure is at most through, at the time through sale reps. Um, we don’t know really what was like black box.
I wonder with the idea. Okay. I, we spend there couple of years and see how it goes. And, and again, I love that Lily really gave me the opportunity to really learn about drug development in the industry. Uh. Got, uh, exposure, uh, to a local experience in France, regional experience in Europe, and then global experience later.
Uh, experience in medical affairs, late stage development, early stage development. So really great career, uh, at Lely that, uh, I really learned everything about drug development there. After nearly 13 years, after a little bit over 13 years as at Lely, the question, okay, what to do next? Um, as a drug developer, you’re to get a new drug, uh, approved for patients.
And I was introduced to an opportunity at Thai Oncology at the time to lead a team, build a team, but also, uh, to get a drug to the finish line like COBE, uh, that was later approved. And, uh, In try parts of Columbia, Katina, GFR to rearrangements. Uh, so that was the key driver where to go to Taiho ecology to get a drug approved.
And I was really glad that I had an opportunity with, uh, that could be approval, but also line extension for long serve in combination with the message in map and Colorado Council. I was able to build. Great team and also got exposed to a different set set up in the pharmaceutical industry, not a big pharma smaller size.
Uh, so you have less expertise in house. Uh, you have also a different style of decision making. Uh, so that was a really great experience and that drove me really to go. We should really further to go smaller organizations. So I, you know, Took the leap and then, uh, to take a job as a CMO in a small biotech and then changed recently to be the Chief Medical Officer at, uh, Inspir now.
So that, that’s really my journey. I really love and I have passion for drug development and bringing innovation for patients.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks for sharing this. And, uh, you’ve, you’ve finished it with the framing of your purpose, which is developing and bringing those, uh, medicines for patient. And it’s, we both know it’s hard.
Biology, it’s hard and having the opportunity to take an asset from early to late phase and getting it in patients hands at the end, making it the medicine is super hard. And you’ve done it, um, Early, late, small, big pharma from France, Europe, U. S., like in very different settings. Uh, what is your key learning through all those experiences, uh, building teams, as you said, and developing drug and oncology to get them to market?
Is there any key learning you would, you would give us?
Karim Benhadji: I mean, yeah, diversity. I mean, you, um, I mean, we come, we are all different, right? Even within the same family, people are really different. And, uh, you get exposed to different culture, different way of working, uh, um, different opinions, styles, and then even within companies and then even in the same country, you see a really different style.
So I think that fascinating aspect where you see different cultures, uh, you, Europe, uh, uh, U. S. Or Asia.
I
Karim Benhadji: always really loved it because it’s really you’re trying really to make your case and to bring people together from different cultures, different backgrounds together for a common purpose. That’s what I really love that aspect that we have that opportunity in Pharma to do it because we work almost globally to bring solutions for patients.
Naji Gehchan: I love it. Like you went immediately, you didn’t go into science and the technical aspect of drug development or clinical operations. You went into people and bringing diverse cultures together on a common purpose. So can you share a little bit more? Because my next question would have been leadership skills that you learned.
So I’d love for you to share a little bit more. What have you developed as leadership skill or the skill you look, uh, as a CMO to build in your team? Um, through through your journey.
Karim Benhadji: Yeah. So so we you don’t get any training about leadership, really. And when you’re really early in your career, you say, okay, oh, the CEO is really the leader.
When you talk when you hear about leadership is you’re really looking really behind. See, who is the general manager? Uh, those are the leaders of the company. But really, with time, you realize that. And then you learn that everyone can be really, really a leader. You don’t need to be a manager to be a leader.
Uh, you can be an individual, uh, contributor and then be a really leader. It’s really to bring people together, uh, and then, uh, working together for common purposes, we discussed, um, for leadership for me is really about being authentic. So we are really empowering others, bringing. People together, but you, you need to be a really authentic.
I mean, you can fake it. People will, will realize that even if they don’t tell you that if you’re, if you are high up. So I think authenticity, being humble, uh, being sometimes vulnerable and then, um, really trying to bring people together and telling them why we are doing this, because at the end of the day, it’s really for patients.
I mean, we all have. Being exposed to patients maybe, uh, directly in as an MD, but also, uh, hit by cancer in family and so on. So it’s really personal and then patients with cancer, I mean, if it’s advanced, they can’t wait really. And every day that we lose in bureaucracy or, uh, making a decision, it has an impact ultimately for patients.
So bringing that also perspective, uh, to everyone is really important.
Naji Gehchan: If you go back in time. to, uh, when you graduated from med school oncology, you went into research in the labs and then you joined pharma and biotech. What would be the advice you’d give your younger self
or something you wish you knew or acted on as you started your career? Yeah,
Karim Benhadji: I think I change over time and I think, uh, probably taking more risks. Because, I mean, culturally, I was probably not open to more risks, uh, as I am today. Uh, so, um, so I took some risks early on in my career, but, uh, I think really being more open for, uh, taking more risks.
Not meaning that you jump over right and left, but, uh, and then also being open to different perspectives, uh, early on. That would be my advice to my young self. Well,
Naji Gehchan: now if we look forward with the different, uh, drug you developed within the oncology overall, obviously it’s one of, um, the places where we’re seeing a lot of innovation, a lot of investment, and we just chatted briefly about, uh, the landscape these days.
What are you most excited about in the next decades for patients living with cancer?
Karim Benhadji: It’s really innovation. I think when I look back 20 years ago when I was just fresh, uh, young oncologist and today, I mean, the number of options, the changes that occurred for patients. I mean, patients are really, uh, took advantage of that, but we still have a lot of things to do.
Uh, I think you see innovation with precision medicine. That’s something. you have not dreamed of, uh, 20 years ago. So I expect that to continue and with, uh, precision medicine, giving access to patients because we have innovative tools right now, but not everyone really have access to those. And then it depends.
Where you are, uh, depends, uh, uh, if you are lucky to have the big center next to you and then access to those therapeutic, uh, options. We have seen a tremendous, um, opportunities with cell based therapies. Uh, so I expect that innovation will continue, uh, in, in those fields. I mean, the artificial intelligence will bring also, uh, new opportunities.
I think it’s I’m always, I call myself, um, a realistic optimist. So I’m really optimistic. I realize that 90 percent of what we do, we go to trash bin. However, in the process we learn a lot and then we make progress to patient. And sometimes it feels just small, but when you add up all the different, uh, Options that would be really, uh, great options for patients.
We see right now, uh, ready from a suppose a D. C. S. So, you know, ecology has, uh, just love these days. Uh, who knows? You will might get surprised in the future. So expect that innovation will come from areas that we are familiar with, but also it can come from. Uh, something that we are completely blind to right now.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, and you know, as you were sharing your, um, when you were, you know, in Algeria, thinking about your future, you talked a lot about computer science and you love tech, and I was thinking, like, oh, this is the moment, you know, like this is, this is where the full circle is happening with tech coming in. So you shared a little bit about, Obviously, like everyone talks about AI, but really about like computational capabilities and what we can do with this from a drug development to discovery to, uh, any, any thought about this and how, um, the intersection about computing and biology might take us in the next years.
Karim Benhadji: Yeah, I think a lot of companies, a lot of labs are working right now about integration of AI and cancer discovery, basically identifying targets, but AI in order to work, you need really a lot of information, machine learning, and then build your model. And then, uh, so I think. Still have a way to go, but I think it can be there particularly if you use it for chemistry or identifying targets.
But at the end of the day, you still have to do the experiment to see if that works. Uh, so I expect also AI will help a little bit to make our life easier when you do clinical development and clinical trials. Uh, and also earlier on when you do, uh, uh, early discovery. That’s a way to go.
Naji Gehchan: Oh yeah. I fully agree.
And this is, this is the. where humility kicks in. Biology certainly humbles us once you do the experiment and get it into humans. Um, but yeah, exciting future ahead. I’m going to give you now a word and I would love your reaction to it. So the first one is leadership.
Karim Benhadji: So, yeah, I already mentioned it. I mean, the first word is really authentic.
Um, so you got to be a really authentic, uh, as a leader. And then you need really to have a mission that’s clear for you and then, uh, communicating to people. And it’s really as a leader up to you, really. to go to people and explain. Don’t expect people just will read your mind and understand the mission.
So it’s, it’s really, uh, you are here to serve the people, uh, and then get them going in the same direction and with the same speed, uh, toward the mission.
Naji Gehchan: The next one is drug development. For me, it’s the passion.
Karim Benhadji: That’s my first reaction. Um, drug development is really a long, can be painful process. Um, and I said already that in oncology specifically, a high rate of attrition.
But you need really to keep optimism because in the process, you might have a few patients, even if the drug is not working. And you need to Find joy in in simple things. I mean, initiating a trial way. That’s a big celebration. I’m getting a database log. That’s a good celebration. At the end of the day, you design experiments.
You need to execute them and get the results because we owe that to patients. If you start a trial, you have really a question that you want to address, and then you’ve got to execute it. So a lot of things. I mean, people really talk about child development about. We design, uh, trials, we design, you know, designs and so on.
But at the end of the day, once you do that, you need to execute that. If you don’t execute it, you won’t get the answer to the question that, uh, uh, you are asking yourself.
Naji Gehchan: Uh, I love that you’re bringing this because it’s, it’s so true, right? Like we always are excited, which is normal, right? With intellectual Part of drug development, designing trials, thinking about it, the probability of success, but obviously the discipline and how we execute.
And this is the long part, as you said, of making sure that you get, you get things done well executed for the patients where we’re serving is crucial. Uh, and you also reminded us, I think it’s always important to remember that few of those experiments actually end up with a drug being, becoming a medicine for patients.
And that’s truly the humbling piece of what you do every day, what we do every day. We, we celebrate The successful drugs, but also we should not forget to celebrate those who are advanced science, but probably couldn’t bring the, uh, the last phase three child for it to become a medicine. And so it’s, it’s a great reminder that you’re bringing, I don’t know if you have any examples or how you led your teams through this, because I think like those are the big parts of the biotech word that we live through.
We, we work years and sometimes it go and it’s great. And sometimes it Does not so I don’t know if you have any, uh, yeah, I think you’ve got
Karim Benhadji: to be optimistic. And then even when everything is really failing or you’ve got to bring that optimism to the teams and then have the team see the positive things and not focus on the negative things because things will go wrong all the time, but you need to have people say, okay, We, we, we, we got some negative things, but, uh, we are really marching toward our mission and then help the team see the positive things.
Um, at the end of the day, I mean, it’s really a process. Uh, I think people want positive outcome. That’s not always the case. It’s it’s really more the exception rather than the rule. Uh, and then helping people really understand that even if it’s a failure for the outcome of trial, we have patients at the end.
I mean, patient, they come with hope. Sometimes we had a few of them and then. Even if there is that small piece, I can see that. And then, uh, that’s really brings, uh, energy to the team. Say, okay, this is why we are doing it. Uh, and then we have those people in the process. If it’s positive, everyone is happy.
Naji Gehchan: Oh, totally. And as you said, like we, we really don’t control the outcome, actually. Like we can. design optimized, but really we control the execution and bringing a high, um, high quality data with, uh, integrity that we’re all committed to in this industry to answer the scientific questions we’re asking and making sure that we’re focusing on what we can control.
And then the other uncontrollable are really part of. The experiment itself. So what
Karim Benhadji: I say is really towards is really speed and quality. I mean, you’re in the quality, but it has to occur really quickly.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. So the third one is, uh, somehow related, uh, biotech, uh,
Karim Benhadji: biotech. So it’s really an interesting world.
And, um, because
You have
Karim Benhadji: the concentration of really in a small environment of really everything. I mean, you have the science, you have the business, you have drug development in between, and then you have to juggle with everything. So it can be really overwhelming for people, uh, but can be also exciting because you will Uh, do very different things.
Really in the same day, you can interact with investors, the board, and, uh, you are still doing drug development. You talk about science, and you can still, at the same time, you have to fix the copier because no one will fix it for you. You have to do things yourself. So I think the, the biotech wise is really, uh, fascinating.
Uh, you get really, uh. Positive experience there, if you like it, and not everyone would really like it. Uh, you got to do things that you have done so many years back in your career. Um, you might not do it as well. Uh, you won’t have also the expertise that you’ll find in big pharma or midsize organizations.
And, uh, you need to admit that you can’t know it all. And if you need to find expertise outside when you need to, so it’s, it’s really a great, um, experience and it can be stressful because right now the environment for biotechs, uh, is, uh, is very stressful in order of, uh, raising funds. And then, uh, that’s, that’s, uh, complicated for the field right now.
The last one is spread love and organizations.
Karim Benhadji: Yeah, so that’s a really interesting one. So when I saw , your, the title of your podcast, I mean, first time. Okay. Oh n It’s really interesting because it’s really bored, uh, ’cause people don’t talk about really loving organizations. Right. Uh, but when you think about it, I really like, um, the bold approach that you’re taking it because at the end of the day.
I you need really to take care of patients, take care of all your people surrounding you to help the patients and you need really some love in the process. Otherwise it’s not going to work. Uh, so you can call it differently, but, uh, I think that’s really important. And then, uh, we want really to work together for a common mission and you can’t achieve that without love.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you for that, Karim. Any final word of wisdom for leaders around the world?
Karim Benhadji: Be positive, believe in your mission, um, and, uh, take care of the people, uh, that, uh, surround you and help you, and then you will find success in the process.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much again for being with me today and this great chat.
Karim Benhadji: Thank you for the invitation.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to Spread Love and Organizations podcast.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Karim Benhadji first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
In this episode, I had the pleasure of speaking with Suman Lal, whose journey from medical school in India to becoming a leader in innovation is as remarkable as it is unconventional. Initially embarking on a path toward medicine, Suman realized that his true passion lay beyond traditional medical practice. An encounter during medical school inspired him to explore other fields. This decision led him into research and ultimately to Singapore, where he found himself immersed in the country's burgeoning life sciences and healthcare innovation sector. While Suman experimented with various career paths — including academia and research — he discovered that his curiosity drove him to explore new industries rather than settle into any one role.
Following his research phase, Suman transitioned into sales within the life sciences industry, a humbling experience that taught him valuable lessons in resilience and adaptability. He spent five years distributing products for early-stage companies, a role that honed his business acumen and led him to appreciate the practicalities of industry work. Afterward, he pursued an MBA at MIT Sloan, where he was drawn to Boston’s vibrant innovation ecosystem. Suman's post-MIT journey took him through several pivots, including starting a cosmetics startup, which introduced him to the world of drug discovery and eventually brought him back to Boston. His passion for innovation led him to the Cambridge Innovation Center (CIC), where he worked on building global innovation ecosystems.
Suman’s current focus is on developing the Technology Innovation Studio (TINS), a "mini ecosystem" that combines physical space, curated networks, consulting, and innovation labs to accelerate breakthroughs in healthcare, life sciences, and beyond. With partnerships spanning MIT and CIC’s global network, Suman envisions TINS as a model for fostering collaboration between scientists, entrepreneurs, and investors to solve complex problems. His ambition is to replicate this model in innovation cities worldwide, creating a sustainable platform for innovation and learning that empowers individuals and communities alike.
"Every challenge is an opportunity to create something better."
MEET OUR GUEST Suman Lal is Managing Director of Technology Innovation Studio (TINS).
Suman Lal is Managing Director of Technology Innovation Studio (TINS) - a physical space in Kendall Square that brings together business leaders, scientists, serial entrepreneurs, investors, industry experts, corporate innovation teams and policy experts to explore and apply tools, methods and models in innovation. Suman is also a Senior Advisor to the Cambridge Innovation Center (CIC) that operates innovation campuses and labs across cities in US, Europe and Asia, and in his previous role worked closely with the leadership team to advise diverse stakeholders in cities and regions around the world on building innovation infrastructure and ecosystems.
Suman is also a Senior Advisor to the Venture Cafe Global Institute (VCGI) that operates the Venture Cafe gatherings in 15 cities, often described as the heartbeat of several innovation districts. Suman has deep experience in the area of technology commercialization, by making independent inventions, licensing intellectual property from major research institutions to form NewCos, and operating venture studios where he took interim CEO roles at the portfolio companies. Prior to this, Suman did technical sales and distribution for 15 early-stage companies over a 5 year period, gaining valuable insights into how early-stage companies transitioned into profitable and scalable businesses.
Suman has an MD in clinical medicine and an MSc in human genetics and did his PhD in precision medicine & clinical pharmacology. Suman received his MBA from MIT as a Sloan Fellow, focusing on innovation and global leadership.
In this episode, my guest Diana Haydar shared her remarkable journey, growing up in Lebanon in a modest family amidst the complexities of war and the resilience it demanded. From her childhood, surrounded by her close-knit sisters, to the school memories we shared, it was clear how both the warmth of family and the trials of war shaped her. School debates and the realities of wartime Lebanon not only matured us beyond our years but also laid the foundation for her leadership journey. Despite the hardships, she drew strength from her experiences, which continue to fuel her resilience today.
As a physiotherapist, she worked with children with special needs in Lebanon, confronting firsthand the struggles of families navigating a healthcare system that offered little support. Her compassion and drive led her to transition into a leadership role within the insurance industry, advocating for patient care and tackling the inequities in healthcare access. She recounted her experience managing teams, demonstrating how she embodied courage and commitment to serving those in need.
Relocating to Dubai in 2021, she faced new challenges, but her determination and adaptability shone through. Reflecting on the stark contrasts between healthcare systems in Lebanon and the UAE, she emphasized her commitment to improving access and ensuring equitable healthcare. Her leadership is defined by resilience, purpose, and the ability to inspire her teams to push forward even in the face of adversity, underscoring a deep-rooted passion for making healthcare more accessible and fair for all.
"Nothing can stop us from doing our job; we will never cease serving the people we are meant to serve."
MEET OUR GUEST Diana Haydar, Director of Direct Sales at Nasco Insurance Group.
Diana Haidar is the Director of Direct Sales at Nasco Insurance Group. Diana has been a key part of the Nasco Insurance group for 20 years, starting in Third Party Administration and then moving into the Direct Broker business, She now covers Middle East's direct portfolio, including Medical, General, and Life insurance. She started her career as a certified physiotherapist, then worked at a mountain Hospital with children with special needs . She holds also a master’s degree in Hospital and Health Management from ESCP & ESA . With 20 years of hands-on experience in the medical field as a professional as well as in insurance industry, Diana has been involved in various aspects of the business, from operations and sales to planning and growth. For over two decades, Diana has been empowering teams, encouraging fresh perspectives, and finding new ways for Nasco Middle East to grow in the world of direct sales. She's a leader dedicated to making a lasting impact on the insurance industry.
Naji Gehchan: Welcome to Spread Love and Organizations, the healthcare leadership podcast where we explore leadership with purpose. I’m Najee, your host, joined today by Diana Haidar, Director of Direct Sales at NASCO Insurance Group. Diana has been a key part of the NASCO Insurance Group for 20 years, starting in third party administration and then moving into the direct broker business.
She now covers Middle East direct portfolio, including medical, general, and life insurance. Diana started her career as a certified psychotherapist. Then worked at a mountain hospital with children with special needs. She holds also a master’s degree in hospital and health management from OSCP and ESAR.
With 20 years of hands on experience in the medical field as a professional, as well as an insurance industry, Diana has been involved in various aspects of the business, from operations and sales to planning and growth. For over two decades, Diana has been empowering teams, encouraging fresh perspectives, and finding new ways for NASSCO Middle East to grow in the world of direct saves.
She’s a leader dedicated to making a lasting impact on the insurance industry. Diana, it’s so amazing to see you again after so many years and have you with me today. Yeah. Thank you, Naji. Really, it’s really amazing to see you too. We’re not gonna say for how many years, because let us keep our ages.
Diana Haydar: It will age us, yeah. Yeah. But a lot of years so far. And I still remember Naji from school days. From literally all the ups and downs and growing up, the teenager’s time, all these times that you spend together. I’m really happy and proud of what you are also Najee now, to be honest.
This is something that makes me proud a lot. Yeah same here, Diana. And really, my first question to you was, let’s catch up, let’s catch up on your journey from our school days, as you said, very early on in Lebanon to, then you did physiotherapy, and now you’re one of the known leaders in the insurance industry in the Middle East.
So can you share a little bit more your personal story with us? Yeah, sure. Naji, I grew up in a family, in a very modest family in Lebanon, Where my dad was in the army, in the Lebanese army. My mom was a housewife and we are four sisters. We are four sisters with very close ages. So we are really too close as you can imagine a house with four girls, how it looks like.
So growing up was extremely amazing. We have beautiful childhood memories. We have teenage memories, which are really amazing. We are so close to each other. Thank God. This is something this is a blessing that we still enjoy it till now, despite that we everyone is in different country. I have two sisters in the US, one sister in Lebanon, and I’m here in Dubai.
But despite all the distances, we are too close. And this is really what marks my childhood the most Najee. So we were at the same school. You and me at the same class, maybe for 14, 15 years, next to each other. So the school memories are the best memories that I have. We really enjoyed our time a lot.
And I think That our future started from school time because we were lucky to have a school where we had freedom of speech. If you remember very well, Naji, we used to do this political debate sociology, economy talking about the war, growing up during wartime. So we had a lot to talk about and which made made us a little bit older than our age comparing to to other schools where they didn’t have the chance to have these conversations with their teachers and with their superiors.
So it started from there. The leadership started from there being delegated the class representing the class. Many times you and me together. Also, actually, many times we were elected by our colleagues at school. So basically, my childhood was a very good childhood at home at school. The only terrible memories I have are the war times which we had to suffer from moving from a country, from a region to another, running away from where they are bombing now.
Are they bombing Beirut or or outside Beirut? So it was really it was really something that I can never forget. And having to struggle with, as I told you, Naji, my dad was a soldier in the Lebanese army. And at a particular time they were they were like attacked by other militia.
By other countries. There was like the civil war and then the war against our country neighbors and the Lebanese army were really attacked so many times. He had to hide at home. My mom had to clean his clothes and put them to, to dry inside house because nobody from the neighbor should know that my dad is here.
So that they don’t attack our house. So we have, I have this black side of my childhood. However, it taught me a lot, Najee. It taught me resilience. It taught me finding solutions. to any problem that we might encounter in life. It taught me all the family bonding that we have.
And the neighbors also, we were all on one heart. We were all hiding together in the same shelters. And so this war, wartime, it really marked my childhood also. We learned from it. We learned from it, especially that we don’t want it to happen again. So this is the childhood. I’ll move a little bit to my university university past.
So I started, as you said, as a physiotherapist in the Lebanese university, which is the national university in Lebanon. And I was lucky to to work at many at many areas, especially with the kids, with the children having special needs, with special needs, so that you meet these this segment of the population who are in need of, who are dependent who struggle, especially in Lebanon, at a country where it’s not really equipped.
For with people with determination, people with needs. So you have to, you feel with the parents, you feel with the children with the entire medical system, how much it’s, it doesn’t support these these diseases. They have to beg to do some surgeries for their kids because insurance companies do not cover congenital cases.
They have to go and get get help from the ministry of health. And the Ministry of Health in Lebanon is really is really politicized, if we can say it. So depending on from which religion you are, you might get help or not. So this is like the struggle that we used to have. And then I started to feel that I enjoyed the therapy.
To be honest with you, Naji, I worked as an establishment and as a freelancer for around from 2003 till 2011. But meanwhile I spotted in my character that I can be a leader. I can be more than a physiotherapist with my patient and one single and one single cell or cabinet. So I discovered some skills, which I didn’t know that I have.
And this is during my, my my career life. And this is where I was also hired as a consultant for physiotherapy and NASCO group. So NASCO at that time, we had the split with with an existing TPA, a third party administrator. Let me just explain what is a third party administrator. So we manage the the the insurance company’s entire cycle.
The insurance company, they sell the policy, the medical policy, and they pay the claims. The entire approvals customer service the contract with the healthcare providers, the claims processing, all these, the reconciliation, financial reconciliation are done by a TPA. So this was my area of expertise.
I started as a simple consultant for physiotherapy guidelines, So how many sessions to cover this? How many sessions to cover? What are the guidelines? And then I liked this job. I I got involved in in NASCO group for this role. And I did my MBA meanwhile, in the ESA, in Ecole Supérieure des Affaires, in hospital and health management, as you mentioned in the introduction.
And I started from there. And I started growing and and like getting promoted inside inside NASCO, and I’ve been with them for the past 20 years. So everyone now will guess the age, but it’s fine. And yeah, and now I’m I moved to Dubai three years and a half ago. I moved to Dubai when after the Beirut blast, There were so many signs.
There was the collapse the economical crisis, all the crisis, all this stuff. So there was there were so many signs talking in my head that Jana, you should leave. I have three kids, Najeeb. And I wanted so bad for them to be a little bit less afraid. Then I was when I was a kid, so the memory of the Beirut blast they heard it.
We were not in Beirut. We live far from Beirut. However, we heard it. My husband was in Beirut. We lost contact with him for about two hours, so it was horrible. This period was horrible to us. So and then there was, the revolution and before that in 2019, and which also we had to struggle a lot to reach work to all this stuff, but it was really horrible.
So I got this opportunity in the UAE and Dubai and I came here. I started. Literally from scratch. Picking a new house, all this picking new school for the kids meeting new friends starting from scratch, even though I’m still, I was still in Nasco. I was transferred from Beirut to Dubai.
However, you have to build. To to prove yourself in this new environment, and I can tell you, Naji, the environment in Dubai is the, is there’s a huge difference between the environment, especially the work environment in Dubai than in Lebanon. And I started, and thank God, now three years and a half have passed, and I feel that I’m, I’ve been here since forever, and I like it.
where I am. I’m extremely happy with all the changes that I’ve done in life. It only evolved me to the, it only took me to a better place for me and my family and my kids. So this is a small brief, not sure if it’s too small. Thanks, Diana for sharing. Obviously, a lot of what you said touches, goes to home.
I want to, before I ask you about Dubai, because I’m interested in what are the differences, as you said, really like leading cross countries, because I’m sure you are leading also a team across the region. So I’d love to go there. And for you being a woman in leadership, I’m really interested to dig in there.
But just before that, if we go back, you talked about school, you reminded me about the debates, the healthy debates we had, the revolutions we did sometimes. So what did you take from, from school, from your years in Lebanon with the childhood and war, really from a leadership standpoint, did you reflect about who you are today as a leader?
And what brought you to who you are today from what we lived before? Of course, Naji. I believe I am what I am now because of this period that we that we had in that we had in Lebanon and the school time and the war time. So you’re referring to school and war time, no? Okay. So it taught us a lot, Naji.
If you remember very well, we used to be at the classroom when they start when the bombs start falling. So they took us all in the bus, go back home or they call their parents, our parents to pick us home. So imagine you are a kid, nine, 10 years old, and then your life is at risk, your parents coming to pick you up.
Their life is at risk. Your siblings and other classes where you don’t know if they are afraid or not. All these it’s, it, it made us stronger. It made us stronger. It made us more agile in our corporate world now because change can happen like this. Everything is okay. You don’t know what’s going on.
Then suddenly you have something, a major thing happening around you, which you’re not involved in, but it is happening. So you have to act fast. You have to think fast. And most importantly, Naji, is the tomorrow. We used to go to home and we did, we do our homework because tomorrow we might be going back to school.
It’s not that the word stops. So I’m not sure if you also, my parents used to be extremely strict at that point, is that if today there are bombs, Tomorrow there are no bombs. You’re going back to school and you’re going to focus on whatever the teacher is telling you. So this split between the fear and focusing on your future is what we apply on every single day in our corporate life.
Because everything is moving. Look at the pandemic. Look now what’s going on in the Middle East. And I work in the Middle East. And then suddenly you have to shift this is going on. However, I need to go on also with my career with my objectives with my vision with leading my team with what’s going on.
What should be going on in my career. So this really made us what we are. So to double click on this, Gianna obviously you’re in an industry that is by itself transforming we’ve been hearing it for a decade at least now, and for sure tomorrow will be even more change and you’re in a region, as you just said, In custom turmoil and challenges.
So how are you applying those leadership skills that you just shared with us? And I love how you framed it. I’ve never thought about it that way, but I certainly lived exactly the same as you did, like dealing with the unexpected, but then immediately refocusing on tomorrow as if tomorrow will just be normal again, regardless, right?
And you have to go through it and doing your homework, right? I think this discipline of you have to do whatever you need to do, regardless of if tomorrow would exist. So how are you transmitting this Largely to your team now, and several of them did not live this right. I’ll you, I’ll give you a small example.
Before I came here I moved here to Dubai in 2021. So in 2019 there was the revolution in Lebanon, the civil revolution. And it was, it was a big thing back then. So half of the population was like participating to these riots. And I live, as I told you, I don’t live in Beirut. I live a little bit far from Beirut.
So they used to close the roads. With with how do we call it? Tires, like flaming tires. So I have three how do we call it? Obstacles of flaming tires on my way to work. It’s, if it’s, there’s at J’ita, there’s at Dawra, and there’s at Jisr al Watin. So I have to pass only because I live in J’ita and Zouk Mosbih, mainly.
And I have a team and we work in medical insurance. where people will not stop falling sick. People will not stop needing for for their medication, whether chronic or acute medication. People has have planned surgeries. You have all these stuff. And I used to handle the portfolio, a very big portfolio for best assistance.
So I had a thousands of members, which I need to take care of about. their, about their experience, their claims, their complaints, all this was part of my job. And I had a team of four, four people, and we all live outside Beirut. So every day, because they close the road at 5 a. m. Imagine they start closing and putting fire to these tires at 5 a.
m. And personally, not only because whether you are supporting the revolution or the riots or not, in my perspective of life, nothing should stop you from doing your job. I cannot make excuses that they are closing the road, the roads, they’re blocking the roads. I have to be there and so is my team.
So I used to wake up at 4 a. m. and it was the entire time of the revolution at 4 a. m. get dressed kiss my kids goodbye and my husband and go to work before they close the roads. And so is my team. And I had to do this you So that they also have the courage to do it also on their own and to come to the office because in our job, we cannot work remotely, especially with the internet condition in Lebanon, and there was not also the pandemic was not there when the revolution starts started.
So no one was really ready for a work from home environment. So I made sure. I didn’t skip one single day. We were there for our clients. We were there for everyone who needed us. Of course, we limited a little bit our moves because when they block the roads, you cannot go anywhere. We made sure to leave the office at also the exact time where they open a little bit the roads for people to go back home and then we reached we and we reach our home safe and we look at the tomorrow.
What time we’re gonna move. Would it be worse? Would it be good? So this is a small example. Where nothing stopped us where I have to to be the strongest. I have to look the strongest. I have to behave like I’m the bravest. Although I cannot tell you, Naji, that I wasn’t scared. There was a time where I moved a little bit late from home, and they blocked the road in front of me at Zouk Mosbih.
And khalas, there was fire everywhere. So I had to go from the mountains and Abu Mizan area, if going from Layat, Bikfaya, and going down like one, one, one hour and a half just to to skip all this in the mountains and then go to work. And I was extremely scared. Because I don’t know the roads.
I’m alone. I’m a woman. The security and safety at that time work like you can forget about them in Lebanon. So and but I made it I made sure to make it every single day for my team. And then I knew that if anything happens to me. The team will do the same with or without me. They will never skip a day.
They will never stop serving the people that they are supposed to do to serve. And this was for me and I believe for them, a huge lesson and resilience. and staying positive and on knowing your responsibilities, Najeeb. Yeah. And you’re touching something super powerful that, we talk a lot about, it’s this huge, true care for one another.
You said something powerful, like they would be here for me. They would be here for, Each other and they would never skip a day for again, because you’re the purpose also that you’re driving is you said something super powerful. Nothing can stop you from doing your job and I would add like because you see your job and it’s true, super important for patients who need it and they need you.
So you were here for them and your team was working in the health care industry. It’s a huge responsibility and an insurance particularly. At that time and the country like Lebanon is not something that that it’s easy. The insurance, the health, the access to health care is not something for granted in Lebanon.
They pay a lot for their insurance or their private insurance because the, like the national insurance, the ministry of health, no need to tell you how they work. So they pay a lot. For their medical care, they have the right to get the right access to this. So since you opened this, I had this question in mind because usually insurance in Middle East plus globally, I can tell you here in the US, it’s the same and Europe is the same.
They don’t have this. Very positive, let’s say, image on truly helping people getting access but rather, and I’m in an industry, as I’m in biotech, biopharma, where it’s also like the image outside can be different from, leaders like you doing what you do on a daily basis to get people access to medications and healthcare.
So can you speak a little bit about this and what you’ve done? Because obviously as you shared your story, everything was driven to make sure that patients get their treatment and you lived with with really, not full justice or fairness towards who can get treated. You talked about the kids you help who were not covered by the government.
So what is your perspective now that you’re a leader in this industry, in the insurance industry and how you make sure that access is equitable for patients? Actually, this is a very sad, ugly truth that we live in. So if the access to healthcare are splitted between Lebanon and the UAE okay.
In Lebanon, the access to healthcare, it’s it’s sitan looks. It’s something that not everyone can afford. It’s luxury. Yeah. It’s luxury. It’s non-regulated. It’s you can insurance companies can just put limits and exclusions on any disease. You have a cardiac disease story.
They can just put some limits unless you fulfill some some obligations having all this stuff. This is in the private insurance in the public sector. You have, unfortunately, Nagy, these are the statistics like three years ago. You have only 28 percent of the Lebanese population, they have private insurance.
All the other, all the remaining people, they fall under the public sector, which is broke, which is, it doesn’t even exist. The infrastructure is not even there. So the government, the governmental hospitals are somewhere where you run from, you run away from them, you don’t trust them because the employees at governmental hospitals are not there.
Our governmental employees. I don’t want to go through these politics. But unfortunately, the corruption in Lebanon because of the corruption, we lost all trust in anything that is related to the public sector to the government, including the public scheme, the healthcare scheme, including the governmental hospitals, including all these, all the entire healthcare system.
So you have this 80 sorry, 78% of the population without any insurance. Okay. Having to back at the Ministry of Health. To get their health care to have to get their procedures done. And this is was also part of a project which I worked on in 2016. I’m gonna tell you about it later on. It was a beautiful project that it’s one of the success stories that we made.
It was when the Ministry of Health did some privatization on the health care management, and they outsourced with TPS with third party administrators, but it was only for a period of four years. And we did a lot. Unfortunately, then they don’t have the budget. They don’t want to do it again. So they went back to the to the old to the old public man.
So you have all the the people that are not insured with the private insurance are all left. Alone, left alone, you have somebody who has who has a heart disease. If they have a heart attack, they go to a hospital. They would not admit them unless they put a huge amount of money as a deposit.
They will refuse to treat them. So imagine the, this, the struggle, the amount of struggle that people have in Lebanon for this. Moving from Lebanon to UAE, UAE is much more how do we call it? Regularized, excuse my English, Najee, sometimes. It’s regulated, yeah. It’s regularized.
You have the medical insurance is mandatory by law. In the UAE, it is mandatory. No one is entitled to stay in UAE unless they have medical insurance. They will not even issue your visa, your residency visa, unless you have a medical insurance. So this is a major change that I saw here. And plus, in UAE, they don’t have the right to exclude diseases.
to put limitations to to, to all this, like the struggle that we have in Lebanon. However, due to the difference and the and the purchase power and the UAE insurance is extremely expensive. And I was going to ask you like people, so you have to have it, but you should be able to afford it.
Exactly. So you have to be extremely at a certain wealth to be able to afford good insurance. Yeah. However, there are some basic products done by the government, which are okay. At least you don’t die at the doors of hospitals, even though they take care of you, depending on your policy, which is a little bit normal, but at least here in the UAE, you know that you can be taken care of.
In case you are in and this was an extreme relaxed mindset that I had when I moved here and I was extremely happy that I live now in such country. Yeah. So it’s interesting because obviously healthcare systems are pretty broken all over the globe. Like I’ve been in Europe as now in the U S so there is what you’re saying is true.
There are, there is this limit of. At least people in urgent need are covered for their health care. But still, unfortunately, we see it in every single country. And in the U. S., I’m sure you’ve seen all those debates about people not being able to afford health care. Because of as you said it’s either so social economics, it can also be because of diversity, certain minority groups.
So it’s certainly something that we we need leaders like you to keep on working and making sure that healthcare is is a human right as it is, but unfortunately it’s not applied that way. Yeah, exactly. If you, if we go back to my very first question I wanted to talk about, which is leadership in different countries and being a woman in leadership in the Middle East.
Can you share with us a little bit your learnings along the way? Yeah. Actually, I’m lucky that I work at NASCO, to be honest, where they really value women at all positions. I cannot tell you it was an easy journey. Because being a woman in the Middle East and the Arab countries, you are always labeled as fragile, you are labeled as dependent, you are labeled as being emotional at not being able to to, to think objectively, et cetera, you are labeled.
Whereas, now actually, I can tell you, not because I’m a woman, the hardest decisions, That are made and decisions. I want to split between decision making and execution. I can only see in my surrounding. I’m sure there are lots of leaders, men who are extremely amazing. But from what I see around me, the decision making and the execution, when it’s a woman leading these two areas, it is certainly a successful result.
Because we want to prove that we can, when men don’t feel that they need to prove it. It’s already for granted. He’s a man, he can do it. Whereas and they fall in this trap, because they take their work for granted sometimes. They don’t. They are not. I don’t want to say decision makers, but you know the confrontation between men and men, the frictions that happen in the corporate world whenever it’s a woman versus man, it’s softer.
It reaches to a middle ground. So I see this a lot. And again, I’m proud that I’m at NASCO because this is this. This place gave me a lot of empowerment being a woman. However, it’s not an easy journey at all. Every single day in every single meeting, Naji. Of course, I’m not comfortable in my skin as my men colleagues.
Especially when I am the only woman in the room, especially when also I’m with a client. And when I’m with another executive, I need to make this huge first impression to be able to crack the preset mind. If I miss this first impression, I will, I might be labeled with the nonsense that I told you previously.
So it’s not an easy job. It is doable. Again, it is how much the woman is focused to prove it and she can do it and she can prove it. But she has to stay focused really Najee. We women, we cannot take our jobs for granted. Unfortunately, like you guys, we need to fight harder. But again, fighting harder is also getting where we want and giving results more than anyone else.
And I certainly agree when you say about decision and execution and that you do it, we see it all over the world. Women leading get to better outcomes. And there is something I’ve also learned by moving to different countries. It’s what you’re saying can also apply to. To to minority groups, if you’re the only different person in a situation, it immediately becomes you want to prove that you can, right?
I love how you framed it because it’s You try harder. You try harder. You try harder. Yeah. Yeah. Which, which sometimes is, it feels unfortunate and unfair, right? Totally. Like why would we get all those assumptions as you said, why do women have to prove, over prove themselves to to get what, where they want, but you’re bringing the other side of it, which is actually, you will prove that you can and you’re doing it.
I want to move now to a section where I’m going to give you a word and I would love your first reaction to it. So the first word is leadership, heart and mind. Oh, tell me more. Two words. So this is something that I read recently. I had some leadership course with a great professor and he, he used to describe Leadership is winning the heart and mind of your team.
So anyone can be a manager, Najee. Anyone can calculate your KPIs. Anyone can make the job done, make the task done. Anyone can monitor your presence at the office. But not anyone can mobilize you to be a better person to look at the same vision to have a strategic mind. Mindset unless it’s a real leader.
So if you don’t win their heart and mind. With your empathy, with your humility, with your leading by example, with all this stuff, in my opinion you are, you will never be a leader. You are, you were never, and you will never be a leader. It’s not about having things done. Everyone can have things done.
It’s about it’s about looking at your team, talking to your team as if you’re talking to yourself, feeling for them as if you’re feeling for yourself.
What about insurance? Security.
So can you share a little bit more, especially how you, because security is very interesting and I’d love to get your thoughts about the future of insurances in the next decade. So imagine Najee, you are now you are now sitting in your room and your child is playing with the ball at the garden and then he falls.
Or she falls and they break their leg. Okay? You don’t you don’t know what to do, okay? You have the medical part, which, where should I go? Which doctor, which facility plus will I be able to afford if a surgery is needed? What if they need this? What if they need this? Having an insurance, I’m not, I’m only talking about medical, but I also manage all the other lines, but this is maybe the most like personalized example.
So imagine all of these, whenever you have a medical insurance, you don’t think of all of these, Najee, you just put your kid in the car, go to the hospital, which you have access luckily with your insurance card. You don’t have to worry about all the logistics. Somebody else is paying the bill. Somebody else is checking the eligibility.
Somebody else is doing the medical due diligence etc. You only, you are only taking care of your kids. Emotions and the trauma that they had, and you don’t have to worry about anything at all. This it was a lot. It was a lot because look at the countries where they don’t have this luxury. Somebody falls sick, they might think 100 times before they take them to a doctor because they cannot afford, they might take them to low level doctors or hospitals or whatever, because they cannot afford an average.
Medical facility. It’s not within their insurance cover, or they don’t have access to it for some reason. So they have ipso facto, they have a low level of health care. And this will this might mark all their entire life know how many people die because of lack of health care access.
Whether not being accepted at the emergency hospital, whether being treated by Medjugorj medical facilities or doctors, because this is the only way they can afford medical medical health care. Being late at their treatment, for example, in Lebanon now, Naji, I’m sure that cancer drugs are not imported anymore to Lebanon.
There is a shortage in cancer drugs. You know how many people in Lebanon are dying because they are not having their chemotherapy? I have one relative, two relatives actually, who are suffering. One of them died because there was no treatment. She was out of chemotherapy for more than six months. There’s no, because she’s not insured under a private insurance.
She has she has to go to the public insurance where they tell her, sorry, the government is broke. We’re not getting, we’re not getting any aid from anywhere. So imagine, so whenever you are insured, all this stuff you don’t have to worry about. And this is vital. This is not a luxury. This is vital.
So But would Jana, would the affordability of insurance become something where it is vital and accessible? Do you think we will be in a future where people can afford it? Honestly, they cannot all afford the same level of health care. We are not in like socialist regimes here in the Middle East or in the Arab world.
And which, in my opinion, it’s not something really bad. Because to have a good medical insurance, you have to be successful in your life. Which also, it might be tough a little bit, Najeeb, but people who invest on them, on themselves. at school, at university, at work, work hard, it will pay off. They will be able to afford whatever they want.
I’m not saying that everyone had the chance for this, but whenever you had the chance and you work on yourself, you can afford. Unfortunately for the people who didn’t even have the chance, the people like living in a war zone or in a very poor area, They will not have the chance to get proper education and then get high positions in, in, in in their work life and then get good insurance.
But the minimum, the bare minimum can be accessible for people as long as governments are regulated and not corrupted. Na. Yeah, and you’re bringing like that. That’s a whole different story. We can talk about trying to bringing the two visions of the word, right? And what a place like more in the U.
S. is actually very similar to this where you work, you succeed, you get what you want. It’s a capitalistic view of things. So those who can’t afford it would be considered the lazy ones versus those who work hard. And then there’s another view of work, which is more some parts of Europe where actually it’s not lazy, it’s just bad luck and the society has to take care of you as a human.
It is a big debate. But it’s. It’s one, I think we can go into in another podcast, but the third word I want to give you is Antoinette, yeah Antoinette everything that is beautiful in life. at school. Najee, you cannot know how much I owe this establishment.
You don’t know how much they, I have done great friends such as yourself and all the other friends that I have. The personality that we had, you remember Najee, one time we did a revolution because there was one student who didn’t pay his tuition. Oh, I don’t remember. You remember very well. So all these movements that we did at school, all the culture that we have.
I still remember, if you remember The teacher, the talks that we had about World War Two, about all the political regimes with Mr. Malham Nassar, teaching us what is Marx, although he was an Arabic teacher. We used to debate about communism, about Marxism, about socialism, about all this stuff.
I, I am so grateful to this period of time and which I I envy the students there now. I hope it has the same culture now. I don’t know, honestly, I’m too far from it now. I hope it still has the same culture. Yeah. So for everyone, Antonia is obviously our school where we went to the first 15 years of our lives.
Yeah. Yeah. And certainly, you’re bringing something that is so true that I feel I try at least to replicate along the way is having those healthy debates, right? You can have different views and we were a mix of different cultures, religions, backgrounds, but you can still open up and debate them respectfully while understanding others view.
If you remember Najee, we were few, like few schools had this diversity of religion and cultures. So we were really lucky because we had these debates. As I see some other, like my friends who used to be in a more closed school communities. They didn’t know there’s the other person, the other side of the religions of the cultures.
They didn’t know until they were, they, they were at work and their work life. We were lucky that we had this experience when we were too young. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. And again, like that’s a full topic, but it certainly helped you take out what unfortunately these days a lot of leaders are trying to do is putting fear in our heads about the other.
And if you really don’t know the other, the fear bubble up. But when you sit with them, play with them, you realize that as human beings, we’re all similar. You think they are all your enemies until you, you see their point of views. Yeah. Yeah. The last one is spread love and organizations is sorry, spread love and organizations.
A must, the word that I would think of is it’s a must. The corporate world is such an evil world Naji, unfortunately you have, I am sure that you know that very well. It’s the selflessness. that it’s not there anymore. It’s the selfishness. So everyone wants to reach their goals by crashing the others, by labeling the others, by ruining the reputations of others, by whatever.
So this teamwork, this spirit, the love, the culture, I’m not sure it’s there. enough anymore, unfortunately. But you are here, we are here, and there’s more than 150 leaders I interviewed who certainly are spreading it and trying hard to do it. Any final word of wisdom, Diana, for leaders around the world?
It’s not for the leaders. Actually, I’ll start with the people who haven’t discovered yet that they are leaders. So I would say this if my team is listening to me now or my old team in Lebanon is listening to me now. You all guys can be leaders. It’s just believe in yourself and be yourself because this is the most important bit.
Most important advantage that you have. It’s only be yourself and you can make it. This is for my team now and for the leaders across the world. This is a song like a cliche, which is nothing lasts forever. You will not be sitting in the same chair. You will not be sitting in the same position.
People will remember you for the good impressions that you made. And this is this comes with leadership. It’s not an easy statement, Naji, because we all struggle with stuff, with mental issues. The conflicts, the trauma that we have from our childhood. But, and we, unconsciously, we spread them on our team.
We might be tough, we might be non empathic, we might be, all this stuff. Guys Again, nothing lasts forever. Just keep this good impression while you’re here on Earth so that people will remember you. Now, my first boss, actually, this is a side story, he is my mentor. He used to be my mentor.
It’s been a long time I haven’t spoken to him. So Also, he marked a lot my leadership style because he used to be a great leader. So what I try to do also now is to have the same print on the team that I need. I wish that they will remember me the way I remember my first boss. I’m sure they will.
And what an amazing way to finish this conversation. Jenna, thank you so much for being with me today and sharing all those stories. Thank you so much, Nadia. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to Spread Love in Organizations podcast. Subscribe at spreadloveio. com or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Together, let’s inspire change and make a positive impact in healthcare, one story at a time. Thank you.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Diana Haydar first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Alison Fragale, a research psychologist, award-winning professor, international keynote speaker, and author, on a mission to help others — especially women — work and live better by understanding and applying the science of people. Alison excels in translating her deep academic expertise is in status, power, negotiation, and influence into actionable advice. Alison is currently Professor at Kenan-Flagler Business School at the University of North Carolina and her research appeared in several news outlets such as Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, The Boston Globe, to name a few… Alison, I am so excited to have you with me today and look forward to our chat!
Alison Fragale: So excited. Thanks for having me.
Naji Gehchan: I’m really eager to go into discussing your impactful academic work and also new book Likeable Badass, but first I would love to hear more about your personal story, what brought you to researching people!
Alison Fragale: 100%. I always say this was not my childhood dream. I don’t know if I had a childhood dream, but it was not this. So here’s my story. I am growing. I’m growing up. My dad was very raised, very poor and managed to pay for his way to go to college. He was a first generation college student and he was very successful in starting a small business where I grew up, but he had really raised me up.
You need to do practical things, Allison, practical things. And so when I was. Uh, starting out, I was thinking about a career in business because my dad said that’s a practical thing to do. And so I went to school and I was a math and economics major in college because that was the closest thing I could come to, to studying and pursuing a career in business.
And I had always had an interest in human behavior and psychology. There was a class offered in my high school. Every class that I could fit into my schedule in college I took, but at the time I had these words that I had to be. focus on a practical career and I did not have any guidance at the time as to how an interest in human behavior could be turned into my father’s wish for a practical career that could pay bills.
So I didn’t do anything. I graduate and I take a job at McKinsey as a management consultant. I wasn’t exactly sure what I wanted to do in business and everyone said this was a good job and if you could get it this would be amazing because you would see so many aspects of business and you would, if you didn’t want to be a consultant, you would at least learn a lot about where you wanted your business.
career to be. And I was not at McKinsey very long before I realized this was not for me. And I looked at the lives of my clients and I couldn’t find anything that I found inspiring that I wanted to do. And I describe it as my quarter life crisis. I thought, uh oh, I’ve picked this career. I was all set up to go to pursue my MBA and I wasn’t liking any of it.
And I hadn’t at that point. Um, ever really explore, like, what did I really like? What did I want to do? I just was following along, trying to get to the next level of success with what people told me to do. And so I always say, when I talk to younger students, or I talk to people now, and I say, the best job in the world is a job that you love.
And the second best job is a job that you hate. Because when you’re unhappy, is when you start to really explore what do you want out of life, out of work, and you get a lot better answers. So one night I walked, I lived in Chicago, I walked out of my apartment across the street to Barnes and Noble and I went to the psychology section because I knew I liked human behavior and I bought a book called Careers in Psychology and I took it back and as I’m flipping through it, I read Organizational Psychology, which I did not know existed in what I had been exposed to.
I kept thinking I could be a therapist or I could teach psychology, you know, in high school, organizational psychology. And there, all of a sudden I had this Eureka moment. I have this somewhat interest in business, although I’m not really sure I want any of these jobs that I’m seeing, a real deep interest in human behavior.
I was also, that interest in human behavior was very much sparked by being at McKinsey, which is an odd job from an interpersonal perspective, where you’re constantly a newcomer and an outsider in a world where your clients really don’t like you. I mean, they make movies about the consultants, right? No one wants to work with the consultants.
And so I had to think a lot about how do you negotiate with people? How do you influence them? How do you motivate them? So I was having all this real on the job. organizational psychology experience. And as soon as I saw organizational psychology, I thought, that sounds like a great blend of the things I know and the things I don’t know.
And I applied to go get my PhD in organizational psychology and apply. I was, you know, this is 1997. So yes, you can search things on the internet, but not quite as efficiently as you can now. So I had to figure it all out and apply. And I, and I went and got my PhD and then ended up. Uh, as a, as a professor, as an organizational psychologist, and it, I think I picked really well the second time.
I am very much inspired and love what I buy and what, love what I do, and I wouldn’t have found it, I don’t think, if I hadn’t picked, I don’t want to say poorly, if I hadn’t been in a situation that really didn’t fit me and, and prompted me to think about what, what do I really love and gone and got that book.
I wish I had saved it. I feel like it’d be like a great artifact, but it’s long gone in my move. So that’s how I ended up here. Well, thank you so much. It’s, uh, it’s really inspiring and I love how you’re sharing it. I had early in my career and what I discussed now with, uh, as you said with, you know, when I mentor, uh, people, there is sometimes this question, like, I don’t know what I love.
Like, I don’t know what I want to do. And I had this advice very early on. Well, someone who told me, you know what, write what you actually hate doing. And it helped me so much because I, like, it gives you some sort of framing of knowing what you don’t really want to do, and then it opens different perspective on what you like.
Naji Gehchan: So I really relate to what you said. I love that you framed it that way. Yeah. That was great advice. I’ve never heard that said that way. That’s totally true. Yeah. So now, as we’re thinking about organizational psychology, like, how would you frame it overall? And then I will go more into the four topics of your research that you’re passionate about.
But help me understand, like, we all know organizations have some psychology, have some dynamics, sometimes good, sometimes bad. How do you think about that? Yeah, so psychology, broadly defined, of any different kind, is going to be the study of human beings. What do we know about people? How are they similar?
Alison Fragale: How are they predictable? The organizational psychology, specifically, is going to be, what do we know about human beings that’s going to be advantageous to us? to work better, to work more efficiently, to work more effectively. So I always joke when I teach my MBA students, when an MBA students, they’re very focused on the quant classes, uh, my accounting, my finance, the things with right answers.
I need to get good grades in these things. And I would always joke with them, you right now in organizational psychology, organizational behavior, You’re not worried about this because you’re not, you’re not working right now, but I promise you, a decade from now, 20 years from now, everything about work that keeps you up at night is going to be a people problem.
No one lays awake at night worrying about their Excel spreadsheet. Everyone lays awake worrying about people who are not giving them the respect they’re due, who are not giving them the answers, who are, Creating obstacles in their way, you know, not taking the meeting, not respecting the boundaries, whatever it is, they’re all people problems.
And so that’s what organizational psychology is really about is to think about if you understand all the people that you have to interact with and want to interact with, if you understand on average how they’re likely to think, feel, and act, because they’re human beings and human beings are kind of predictable.
So if you understand that science. That gives you a tremendous advantage to think about, okay, well, you know, similarity attraction. We like people who are like us. That’s a well known psychological truth. Well, if I know that I can start to bring that into that knowledge into the way that I show up. Okay.
We have things in, you know, in common, neither of us really like to fly, but we fly all the time. That’s a point of connection. All of a sudden. Yeah. Um, we feel like we have some kinship. So that’s how we can start to use psychology and the, and the truths and similarities of people to how we can authentically show up in ways that are going to get us the results that we want.
And that’s what I try to help people do is I try to help people think about their audience. Like, what is this person doing and what do you want them to be doing? And then how are you going to be able to think about all the variables in your control to get the outcome you want from that? other person.
So that’s why I find psychology so fascinating because it has rules, but then there’s always individual circumstances to think about how do you use that science to work that, get that particular person to move in the way you want them to move. I, I, I obviously love it. And, um, I so believe in it. And as you are talking about, you know, like the technical aspect, the math aspect with your MBA student, we obviously see it like an organization, as you know, like I’m in a biotech word, you have like the high experts who are very scientific driven, et cetera.
So as you think through this, because it’s so, it’s so true, what you said, it all come down to people at the end, the organization of psychology and how things are dealt with. And this is what keeps me up. at night, as you said, way more than the scientific narrative, if you want, or the unmet medical need, which is way clearer.
But how would you help leaders see the importance of this, especially if they come from a background of purely technical, like MD, like me, PhD, who usually tend to see this as, you Secondary. Yeah, I think people tend to see it as secondary only until they’ve struggled. So that’s when I would have, when I would have my full time students, they were young enough that they hadn’t really struggled too much.
They hadn’t been managing people. They were in school full time. When you have somebody who’s engaged in working, so you take a physician, for example, if they’re a clinician, right? And let’s say they’re patient facing and say, try to get your patients to do. what you want them to do, what you know is in their best interest, right?
Is the spreadsheet or the data or the study or the paper the thing that’s going to move them? Maybe it should be the thing that moves them, but maybe it’s not, right? Maybe it’s the fact, right, that they’re, that they’re a big, you know, Chicago Bears fan and their doctor can talk Chicago Bears. Okay, now I’ll listen to your recommendations.
So thinking about, um, When people are in the, in the engaged in work and trying to collaborate with people every single day people will have some great successes and every single day people will have great struggles. And so what I help people do is I say, okay, tell me something where it’s hard for you to move people.
No one, everyone can think of an example. And then what I try to do is help give them strategies for how could you use human behavior in addition to. All the other tools that you have, right? So we are not going to, um, I mean, so being an expert is a psychological tool because people trust experts. People listen to experts.
So having expertise, having data, having science doesn’t run against psychology. It’s part of psychology. Why would this person listen to me? Because I come from, uh, I have data I come from, I’m educated, I come from a basis of knowledge, but there are all the other factors as well. And I help people point out what they are.
So I’ll use similarity as an example and then say, okay, well let’s think about how we could use this, or let’s think about how you could, where you could, um, where you’ve seen this type of thing work. And that normally is what I really like about it, is it, everyone is always a psychologist all day long.
So as long as they’re engaged in work, you can pretty quickly point out a problem, or They can agree it’s a problem. And then you can think about, okay, what tools do we have that we can add in to what you’re already doing that would get you more likely to get you the results you wanted. So I listen to you.
It’s a great segue to where it’s, uh, you mentioned it like status, expertise, power, influence, and this is. A big part of your research. So as you, um, as we talk about these four words, status, power, negotiation, influence, those you, uh, have really deeply researched. Can you share a little bit more with us your research on those topics, what comes out and how to think about them?
Yeah. So status and power. Um, status, I’ll talk about what they are first, I’ll spend, I’ll talk about those two first because that’s, uh, I speak about all of these things, but I do a lot of research in the area of status and power. So status is respect. It’s how much we are respected and valued by other people.
That is, if you look at status in the dictionary, that is one definition you’ll see. There are other definitions of how we use the term status, but when psychologists talk about status, we’re talking about that specific definition, which is how much does one person respect and regard another person. So it’s not your standing or your title, but it’s, it’s respect and value.
Power is. Do you control resources that other people care about? So I’m a parent of a teenager. If I have the keys to the car, the keys to the car are a resource that the teenager cares about. That gives me some power. If in an organization I have the formal authority to control the budget, to say yes or no, to hire and fire, those are all valued resources.
They give me power. Those are related but distinct. A lot of times the people who are the, are very highly respected, um, have the resources and they’re the people who get put in the positions to be able to control everything. So you can see them go hand in hand, but they are very distinct. And one of the things I help people understand is how to manage them separately because there’s a misconception that people have that is If I’m powerful enough, everyone will respect me and sometimes that can happen.
We can, we see someone who’s in power, we think we must have done something good to get there and we respect them, but a lot of times that is not what occurs. What’s more likely to occur is the opposite, which is if people respect me, they’re more willing to give me power. So when you think about situations where you have had the discretion to give someone power.
Sometimes we give someone power by electing to work under them. And we allow them to, we say, I’m going to give you power over me by being your subordinate. I’m going to give you power. I’m going to, I’m going to advocate that you should be promoted. I’m going to advocate that you should be paid more. We can give people power.
I’m going to vote for you in an, in a election, or if you’re applying for something. These are ways in which we can say, I’m participating in you getting more power in this world. Well, we’re only going to do that. If we have a choice for people that we respect, you would never put more control in the hands of somebody that you didn’t think would use it well.
And so we. One of the mistakes that people make is not recognizing how foundational earning respect is to being able to get all these other tangible things that we want. And for some people, and this is, I do a lot of work, I don’t exclusively speak to women or do work for women, but women, working for women is an audience that I care very deeply about, because what we know is that some, um, Characteristics are awarded less status than others.
So generally speaking, woman is awarded less status than man. And so what that means is that some people don’t automatically get as much status as others, and that makes it harder than for some people to get power. So a lot of the challenges we see with women being able to be represented at top levels of an organization, um, being able to be paid at.
you know, for their worth at the same levels as men, et cetera, can have their roots in status issues, which is if we don’t respect two people equally, we won’t reward them equally. And when we understand that, that’s painful, but it’s also gives us a path forward of thinking about, okay, well, as psychologists, we actually, back to this idea of thinking about your audience, we know a lot about how people decide whether or not they respect another person.
It’s not an arbitrary decision. We pay attention to certain things. Particularly how competent and capable they are, and how caring they are, how other oriented they are. And when we see somebody that we think, um, really knows what they’re doing, and really cares about people other than themselves, that’s the winning recipe to be respected.
If you think about, like, your Rolodex of who do I respect? Chances are, every, every single year, you’re like, yep. I think they’re very capable and very caring. Yep. Yep. Check. Check. Um, so that’s status and power. That’s the distinction. And that’s a lot of the work that I do is looking at really how to manage status and how to manage status as a tool for one, living a happy, fulfilling life.
Status and power are both fundamental human needs. I mean, we all human beings seek them and they are critical to our life satisfaction and our physical and mental health. And so I always tell people that. Lacking respect and lacking control are psychologically and physically just as damaging as living a life without friends.
But the, but the message that I really try to convey to people is Um, focusing on status as getting your audience to respect and value you is one of the most important things we can do when we’re interacting with other people, because once we do that, the other things that we really value, like being in control, and then negotiation and influence.
Negotiation is a tool for being influential. If you don’t respect people, it really doesn’t matter how many good negotiation tools and strategies I teach people. They’re not going to be successful sitting in front of their audience. So it ends up being the foundation for anything we want in our relationships.
And you can be respected and still be a poor negotiator, but it’s hard to be a great negotiator if you’re not very well respected. So this is, this is great. And let’s start first with the status and power, you know, like let’s talk. a little bit more. So on the status part, you talked about being respected and valued by others.
And it touches a lot as leaders, behaviors, how you show up, you talked about caring and delivering. But you also talked about, for example, women having this Already like a status that might be perceived as lower and I would say like minority group members not being born in a specific place, the genetic lottery.
We all live, uh, and we named them, right? Like several other pieces of, uh, of diversity that we can talk about. So this piece actually, this is where I would love to hear your thoughts about it because that piece is somehow we can’t control it. It’s who we are, and it’s more I’m feeling like the biases that can come with status that makes your status maybe lower or higher, depending on the society you’re in.
And then there is a piece where your behaviors are making your status to be respected by others, et cetera, because you care and you deliver. So help me understand these two and what part you should influence, not influence as a leader. Right. So 100 percent agree with all. First is many variables influence status.
It’s not just gender. Uh, so there are in status, we think of ascribed characteristics that influence status. So those are things we generally do not control. They have no basis for, for capability or anything, but, and they’re often things that are set. at birth, but they are outside of our control and unrelated to our actual skills and abilities.
So you would have gender, you could have race, you could have other kinds of physical characteristics, height, weight, ethnicity, religion, you name it, you can have a status, can be affected by it. Um, then you have achieved characteristics. So if I have Um, a Ph. D., which I have a Ph. D., so you might say, oh, okay, well, you have a Ph.
D., so I might assume that, although other things being equal, you’re more competent and capable than somebody in your field who doesn’t. Okay, that could be something where I have control over it to some degree, and people will draw conclusions about it as well. And then we have Um, all of the, the behaviors in which, uh, we can exhibit that we show up moment to moment that can affect how we perceive how capable and caring somebody is.
So, and those are things we can exert a high degree of control over. So, some people are potentially. I would call them at risk. So you come from a medical world, right? And I, as you, I’m not that kind of doctor, but some people can be born with greater propensity for some health, bad health outcome than other people, right?
That’s like an ascribed characteristic. It’s not your fault. You didn’t cause it. But guess what? If you live the same life as your neighbor, Your life statistically may not be as good because you have a risk for a health outcome that your neighbor just doesn’t have. And so therefore, what are the most controllable things you have left to make sure that you do get the life, the longevity, and the quality of life that you deserve?
You may have to change your diet, right? You may have to change your sleep pattern or your exercise or whatever it is, and your neighbor doesn’t? It’s unfair, but let’s talk about what variables you can control. And so in status, we understand the unfair piece, the piece that you inherited. And then there’s the pieces you can control.
And a lot of that is about how do we show up and recognizing that we have this at risk status, at risk situation allows us to be more proactive. And I always, you know, a lot of times what happens with, with people in status is people don’t worry about theirs until they find out they have a status problem.
You show up in an organization, you start doing your work, you’re like, I’m smart, I’m caring, I’m capable, like what’s, what’s to worry about? I’m not really thinking about my gender or my race or anything, like I just doing my work. Until someone undervalues you and then you realize they are not honoring your status and now you’re mad and you don’t like it and you want to fix it.
But now the, the per, the, the person has already decided that you’re not a person worthy of respect. Can you change their mind? 100%. You have changed your mind about people, I’m sure, in the past. I have too. But you know what? It takes a lot longer because once you’ve decided you don’t value that person, they have to consistently kind of prove you wrong enough times until you finally are going to change your mind.
It’s a lot easier to shape it at the beginning. So I always say like if you think you have a risk for having let’s say heart disease, no doctor would probably say just you know what wait and see if the heart disease shows up and if it shows up come back and then we’ll fix it. That’s often when people call me about status.
So what I like to think about is how can you be proactive and know that everybody is at risk at times. Based on some characteristic of being undervalued. The proactive things to do would be to control how you show up in interactions. And the simple advice I give people is in every interaction, ask yourself, like, what can I do in this moment to show up as.
Capable, I’ll often use the term assertive for that. It’s not just about being assertive, but to say I’m a person who has the skills and, and persistence to get stuff done. If you show up that way, that’s really beneficial for your status. And if you show up and say what’s the thing that I could do that shows that I’m very caring and oriented toward other people, that’s really beneficial as well.
A simple example would be offering advice where advice is welcome. advice allows you to show up as an expert. Hey, I know something. And if I’m doing it in service to you, then I can show up as caring. Um, talking about, uh, My, um, capabilities, right? And my, and my, um, qualifications. This is something I always used to feel really uncomfortable with when I stood in front of students.
I stood in front of audiences as I say, I don’t want to really give my resume. I just want to kind of show up and just talk to you. But people don’t know who I am. If I’m not saying to them, hey, um, Here’s my qualifications. Here’s the different things I’ve done. Then they would have no way of knowing and they’re drawing whatever conclusions they’re drawing based on my gender and everything else they can see about me.
Um, but I also want to talk about, you know, Hey, um, I’m, I’m caring as well. So I, even from an introduction on stage, I could talk about both my skills and accomplishments, but also things that create similarity with my audience and talk about my, the personal side of me so that they can see me as a person they’re connected to.
I may think of as. As friendly and other oriented, I tell jokes sometimes. That’s kind of my natural style, but jokes are actually really, um, affiliative behaviors. So you can start to think about how do I show up in interactions where I can bring both the capability and the caring and it’s subtle behaviors and things like that, that we do get a lot of control of.
And for people who are at risk of lacking status, I always say, The quicker you do that in a relationship before anyone has a moment to think about you, you want them to start thinking about you in this most positive way. And you can often do that in 30 seconds, five minutes in an, you know, in an interaction to, to get that relationship often in a way that advantages you.
These are such amazing advices. So I’m going to keep on getting your advice on another topic, negotiation. Okay. Can you share with us like the one advice. As, as you go into a negotiation, is there one advice or one behavior we should be doing to try and get to where we want to go in a negotiation? So I’m, I’m going to give you a couple, okay, move first, move first, okay, the, the, the first mover, the person who puts the offer or the proposal out there first is going to do better.
So a lot of times we want to sit around and see what the other person has to say generally does not help us out. So when you go into negotiate, go with an idea of what you want. And put it out there, okay? Even if it anchors the others? That’s exactly what you want it to do. You want it to anchor them in a way that’s advantageous for you.
The alternative is they go first, you get anchored in a way that’s advantageous to them. So, now, Again, when we, if we, if I was going to do a whole course on this, we can find exceptions to everything, but in general, the research shows, and this is one of the things that contradicts people’s assumptions a lot, they think the person that speaks first loses.
I should hear what they have to say. And you can, but what’s likely to happen, particularly if you’re not extremely well prepared as to what a good outcome is, is that you’ll start to be anchored to what they’re saying because you’ll think that’s what they want. If I move too far away from it, they won’t say yes.
I also want that person to like me and you’ll start to slowly creep, you won’t creep all the way to where they’re going, but you will start to creep in your own head to be a little bit more concessionary and that’s okay. It just doesn’t end you with an outcome that’s as good for your purpose. your side.
So when we go first, um, we can get all those same effects working in their brain instead of our brain. Now, if you’re nervous about going first, and I’d say even if you’re not, a corollary to go first is go first, with multiple solutions. So three is a magic number. Hoodings, like, here’s three different ways I think we could solve this problem.
I could see it doing A, we could do B, we could do C. And A, B, and C, what they have in common is they’re all solutions that you would find acceptable. But they differ in, um, there are various ways that you solve the problem. Of that strategy, It still allows you to go first, but it also is very good at building the relationship because we like people who give us choices, and when people give us choices, we see them as more reasonable, more interested in solving the problem, and particularly, you know, for, we know of a lot of science, women is one, is one category of people who, when we are too assertive about what we want, we get backlash in negotiations.
So a three strategy, a three solution, proposal is a really good way to do it because it’s saying, I’m still going first, but I’m, but by the fact that I’m giving you choice, I am managing how you think about how aggressive I’m being in a way that is building trust in me. That’s good for, good for me, but good for both.
So I’m going to venture now in a, maybe a tricky space, but since you’re passionate about psychology people, you said we are predictable as humans and like all the science of people and the current word, you know, where we’re going today, like, We’re seeing it all over the place. Wars, unfortunately, in all the parts of the world, extremism, etc.
Can you make sense out of all the ongoing craziness from your psychology of people, and how do you think about this? Yeah, I can make sense of it, um, I can understand it, and I think a little bit like, I’ll use the medical analogy again, um, that you joke, like you joke, like when depending, when you have a medical ailment, the salute, recommended solution depends on the specialty of the provider you go for, right?
You go to the surgeon and the surgeon’s like, yes, this is a surgical fix, and you go to, you’re the internist, and they’re like, okay, here’s the medical fix, um, so as I’m going to tell you, it’s status and power, they’re fundamental human needs. Okay, those are when those things are taken away from people, people will do anything to get them back when people feel like they are not respected.
They don’t behave well. When people feel like they don’t have any control, they don’t behave well, and they are desperate to get those things back. So if you think about things anywhere from world conflicts to, to like political debates at the holiday table, whatever it is, those are fights for status and power.
Um, now you layer in, um, a world in which now there is no such thing as a private conversation. Why I think why it feels like things are getting worse is that When we have an audience watching us, or a perceived audience watching us, all of the, like, lacking status, lacking power, now feel worse because everyone knows about it.
Now we feel ashamed. We feel like we can’t change our mind. It’s what people were saying, like, why are these negotiations now so intractable? Because negotiations involve people starting with position A and position B, and then figuring out how to find position C that works for everybody. But if you’ve gone on record to 10 people, a million people, a billion people, and said, I am going to go get position A, then you end up with position C.
You worry that the world is going to think that you lost, when in fact that’s not at all what happened. And so when we’ve created Uh, a world in which there’s no such thing as a private conversation. We’ve made it very hard for people to change their minds. We’ve made it very hard for people to pursue interest based bargaining, which is, okay, if you want A and I want B, C actually gets you everything that A gets you, it gets you everything that B gets you.
It’s a good solution. It’s just a different one than we both came in with. That’s actually what smart negotiators do. But if the world doesn’t understand that, then I’m now very concerned about how I’m going to be perceived. What am I concerned about? My status. Are people going to respect me less based on this?
So I am like the surgeon who thinks everything can be operated on, okay? Status and power can explain all of it. Adding in the fact that all of it is now done in front of essentially a worldwide audience is, is making these things feel fundamentally different than I think they felt to us at a point like earlier in our history or when we were kind of growing up.
That’s an incredible perspective. I’m going to give you now a word. And I would love for a reaction, like what first comes to mind. The first one is leadership. Difficult.
I think being a leader is really hard. I think it’s one of the reasons why it’s, you know, a, um, a topic that people can endlessly want to read about, learn about, be better, um, because it requires us to set vision. Um, I think that’s probably the easier part. And then mobilize people to follow that vision.
And that’s the psychological part. And that’s trying to reach a lot of different people, um, who want a lot of different things and get them all to act in concert on a, on a, on a vision. It is really, really hard. Um, and so I think, uh, it’s one of the things that gets me like excited about doing the kinds of work that I do is to know that to lead is challenging, predictable psychological reasons.
So I have a question on this. How do you reconsider leadership with status, uh, and power? Is it, are they totally related? Is there different types of status and power depending on your leadership position? Like, how do you think about this? Yeah. So, again, the, the academic in me thinks of a leader as somebody doing these two things, setting vision and getting people to follow them.
Not everybody then, and then there’s power is do I control resources? So again, if I go back to, if I have the car keys and my teenage son wants the car, I have power, but I’m not a leader, right? There’s no vision. There’s no followership. Right. Um, and you could say, and, and, and then status being respected.
Alison Fragale: Now, a lot of people who are well respected, people want to follow them. But then they also have to have the second component, which is, am I setting the vision and a direction for people to go? So that’s where you could find a Venn diagram, if you will. There’s certainly an overlap in the center where a successful leader is going to set vision and get people to follow them.
They’ll control the resources and they’ll be highly regarded and respected, and that’ll be part of mobilizing people to follow. So you have the space in the center, but you can always find people who are just one or two out of three, depending on what’s What’s going on? I would, I would say, could you have a leader that had you, you can, it’s hard to have an effective leader that has no status.
Cause I think you’d have a hard time mobilizing people to follow if nobody respects you and the vision. Um, but certainly you can have people in power who don’t have status. And then I would say, it’s not really clear. They’re actually leading anything. So you can get, I think you can get all of them. I think I, I can, I can draw the Venn diagram and put a person in each of those, each of those spaces.
The second one is influence. Um, yeah. So, I mean, I think about what comes to mind. Um, I think it’s what we’re what we’re doing all day long is getting other people to do what we want. And all of these things are tools. So status, power and negotiation are just different tools for influence. If you think about it, right, negotiation, if I’m going to move first, or I’m going to present three solutions, those are just specific techniques to get somebody to do what you want them to do, right?
I control the resources, so you’re a little bit afraid of me, and you need to do what I say, so that I get the resources, and I get rewarded. That’s a tool for influence. It’s why people want Uh, care about power. And same with status. If you really respect and value me, you’re going to more likely do what I say.
One because you trust it’s right, and two because you care what I think and what I think about you. And so all three of those come together and um, influence kind of sits at the top of the pyramid of our, our, our human goal when we’re interacting with other people. The third one is Likeable Badass. The title of the greatest forthcoming book on September 3rd, um, Likeable Badass.
Alison Fragale: So that’s my book, uh, uh, how women get the success they deserve. Um, it, uh, is really my catchy term for that stuff we just talked about with status, which is how do you get status? You get people to think. That you care about people other than yourself. That’s the, that’s my, I use likable for that. And then this idea of you’re capable, you get things done, I put something in your hands, you’re going to succeed.
That’s, badass is my term for that. I always joke that if I called it, you know, capable and caring, no one would buy the book. But, It, uh, it, it is, it has a specific meaning and I, I break it down in the book. I say that’s the way to remember it, but it’s really rooted in psychology of person perception is these are the two dimensions that people are paying attention to when they decide are you a person that they respect.
And the good part about this is that although it feels unfair. That some people have to be more strategic about getting the respect they deserve than others. This is what everyone wants to be. When I say likable badass, no one ever says, nah, not interested. Everyone’s like, yes, that’s exactly what I’m going for.
That’s how I want to show up. Absolutely. I, that’s how I want people to think about me. So there is an authenticity that can exist with this strategy, which is getting. Getting status is being, is showing up the way you really want to show up anyway and being perceived the way you want to be perceived. So that’s how I got the title.
Alison Fragale: And what I do in the book is break down the science of where does status come from, from these two dimensions, and then most importantly, how can people start to use the variables in their control to influence how people see them on these two dimensions? The last one is spread love and organizations.
amazing mission and goal. So I, when you, when we got introduced and you were telling me about spread law, I like, I was like a hundred percent, um, signed me up of thinking about how to be, and again, just like likable badass, right? I, have you ever found someone where you said spread love and someone said, no, not interested?
It is a universal, um, goal of things, things that we’re striving for, of thinking about, um, how to have, like, psychologists often talk about task significance, which is a much less, like, fun way to talk about it, of, does the, do the things I do matter, right? Do I, um, make a positive impact on other people’s lives?
And we see in psychology that the, when people have task significance and they think the things they do matter, it is one of the. biggest intrinsic motivators that human beings have. And when people feel like their significance is threatened, it does not matter what other perks, how much money you pay people, whether you have a foosball like table in the lobby, how many free drinks and snacks there are.
When people feel like the things they’re doing don’t have significance and don’t matter, it’s a, it’s a huge deterrent. It’s normally, it’s normally when people exit. So I think spread love is the, like one of the biggest. human motivators we have that gets us to show up every day and be excited about our work.
Any final word of wisdom, uh, Alison, for leaders around the world?
Alison Fragale: Final word of wisdom. Okay. Um, Be yourself in the most strategic way possible. This is one of the things that I always, um, say is that strategic and authentic are not opposites. You can and should be both. So, you know, just as an example, when I said we like people who are like us, like you can be strategic and say, hey, Hey.
We have a lot of things in common. I’m going to talk about those things that we have in common, but there are things we legitimately have in common that we can tell we both light up when we start to talk about. That’s the very authentic piece of it. So that would be my advice is, um, you know, don’t reject it.
being strategic because we have to be strategic with thinking about other human beings. But that does not mean, strategic does not mean the opposite of authentic. Look for ways to bring those together and one of the things I love to do when I talk to individual people is to say, tell me who you are and what do you naturally like to do?
And then let’s think about how we tweak that on the margin to get you better results without you abandoning the way you like to show up. And I always promise people there’s always a way. There’s always a way to layer that in. So strategic and authentic. You can be both. Well, thank you so much. I can really stay with you for hours discussing it.
Probably we need to do another follow up discussion after the book is out, likeable, badass. I’ll be waiting for it, reading it. I think it’s in September, right? September. Awesome. thank you again for being with me today and for this incredible chat.
Alison Fragale: Likewise. Again, I round to any time you want. I love it. Thank you.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Alison Fragale first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
In this special episode in partnership with ESCP Business School, I’m joined by Clarissa Gorin, a pharmacist and ESCP Business School MSc Biopharmaceutical Management alum, who transitioned from the blockchain industry to head Medical Affairs at Ad Scientiam, a MedTech company specializing in digital biomarkers. Clarissa shares her journey from a traditional pharmacy career path to embracing tech innovation in healthcare, particularly in the fight against counterfeit medicines in developing countries. Her work at Ad Scientiam, which originated from the Paris Brain Institute, focuses on creating digital biomarkers using smartphone sensors and AI to monitor and predict the progression of neurodegenerative diseases. Clarissa's unique perspective highlights the importance of adaptability and the practical application of technology to meet real-world needs in the healthcare sector.
Throughout the episode, we dive into Clarissa's experiences in navigating cultural challenges in tech adoption, particularly in developing regions, and how this has shaped her approach to leading innovative projects. She emphasizes the value of understanding the specific needs of both patients and healthcare providers when developing new technologies, and the critical role that digital biomarkers and AI can play in the future of medical diagnostics and treatment. Clarissa also reflects on the importance of accessibility and humility in tech development, ensuring that solutions are not only high-tech but also practical and adaptable to diverse healthcare settings around the world.
"Effective leadership hinges on adaptability and the ability to respond swiftly to change."
MEET OUR GUEST Clarissa Gorin, Head of Medical Innovation, Medical Affairs at Ad scientam.
Clarissa holds a dual degree in Pharmacy and a Master of Science (MSc) specialized in pharmaceutical and biotechnology management from ESCP Business School. She quickly developed a keen interest in emerging technologies, data management, and their applications in the healthcare sector. Following her initial professional experience focusing on the blockchain industry and the fight against counterfeit medicines in developing countries, Clarissa joined Ad Scientiam in 2020 as Head of Medical Affairs.
Ad Scientiam, a MedTech company originating from the Paris Brain Institute, specializes in developing digital biomarkers that enable the monitoring and prediction of the progression of certain neurodegenerative pathologies and rare diseases. These innovative markers are derived from proprietary algorithms for measuring precise analysis movements, vocal activity, or image processing derived from smartphone sensors and AI technologies. Within Ad Scientiam, her role involves working collaboratively with the Scientific Board to ensure the development and validation of these biomarkers, leveraging her medical knowledge and expertise.
In this episode, we had the pleasure of speaking with Carl Dahlberg, who shared his fascinating journey from a computer science nerd to an emergency physician and medical innovator. Carl discussed how his passion for problem-solving has driven his diverse career, spanning IT, financial trading, and emergency medicine. He reflected on his transition into healthcare and how his tech background influenced his approach to medicine, emphasizing creativity and innovation.
Carl highlighted a recurring theme in his career: a desire to solve important problems for real people, which ultimately led him to focus on healthcare innovation. He expressed concerns about the U.S. healthcare system's inefficiencies and the need for a fundamental redesign to improve outcomes and reduce costs.
When discussing his work mentoring entrepreneurs, Carl emphasized the importance of listening to customers and stakeholders to truly understand the problems that need solving. He also shared his insights on leadership, noting that modern leaders should align incentives and communicate the mission clearly to their teams, rather than merely issuing directives.
In a reflective segment, Carl shared his views on concepts like innovation, entrepreneurship, health equity, and spreading joy in organizations. He underscored the importance of joy in work, distinguishing it from mere fun, and emphasized that true satisfaction comes from tackling meaningful challenges.
Carl concluded with advice for healthcare leaders: ensure that clinicians, who are the embodiment of the mission, have a voice in decision-making processes to avoid potentially disastrous oversights.
"True satisfaction comes from solving important problems for real people, not just making a profit."
MEET OUR GUEST Carl Dahlberg, President at Dahlberg Healthcare Solutions.
Carl Dahlberg, a physician innovator whose passion is solving important problems for real people. Holding degrees from The University of Michigan Medical School and MIT Sloan School of Management Carl has a multifaceted background spanning technology, medicine, art and business. He’s co-founder of the MIT Sloan Physicians Group and a mentor with the MIT Sandbox and UM6P Explorer innovation programs. Carl blends medical proficiency with entrepreneurial spirit and relentless creativity to drive positive change in healthcare and beyond.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Carl Dahlberg, a physician innovator whose passion is solving important problems for real people. Holding degrees from The University of Michigan Medical School and MIT Sloan School of Management Carl has a multifaceted background spanning technology, medicine, art and business. He’s co-founder of the MIT Sloan Physicians Group and a mentor with the MIT Sandbox and UM6P Explorer innovation programs. Carl blends medical proficiency with entrepreneurial spirit and relentless creativity to drive positive change in healthcare and beyond.
Carl, it is great to have you with me today!
Carl Dahlberg: Great to be here, thank you.
Naji Gehchan: I would love first to hear more about your personal story and what’s in between the lines of your journey.
Carl Dahlberg: Oh, I, uh, I always feel funny talking about my journey because it’s, I feel like sort of a, uh, pinball machine. I, I’ve had a whole, I’ve got kind of a weird background. Um, I started out as a computer nerd, uh, back in junior high school, before it was fashionable to be a nerd. And, uh, from there I went to college and I got a degree in computer science from the University of Michigan.
And I guess what I liked about working with computers was making things happen. Uh, you can give it instructions and tell it to do something and something exciting would happen. That always appealed to me. Um, from there, I worked out in Silicon Valley for a little while doing IT, uh, for a computer reseller.
And that was interesting. I love living in the Bay area. Uh, from there I went to Chicago and I worked in the financial, uh, derivatives trading industry, also doing IT for a while. And, uh, these were interesting years. Chicago was a fun place to live. And, and, uh, the trading industry is very, uh, how do I put this?
There’s a lot of human energy and making a trillion dollars change ends every day. And, uh, it was something that I just couldn’t get excited about. You know, the movement of money didn’t really matter to me. And I decided that I wanted to go to medical school. I ended up going back to my college, University of Michigan, where I kind of found that the people that most appealed to my personality were the emergency physicians.
I liked being the one to make a diagnosis and, uh, in emergency medicine, you never knew what you had to do next. You had some sort of problem and it might have been something that you had done many times, or it might be something completely new, but you had to interact positively in the situation. So I did my residency and then, uh, I moved out to Massachusetts and been practicing clinical emergency medicine for almost 20 years now.
And a few years ago, I started realizing that all that creativity and, and desire to innovate and solve problems that I liked about working with computers. Uh, just wasn’t, you know, uh, wasn’t being applied. I really looked at the way healthcare was being performed, and you watch the same problem being solved a few thousand times in a row, and you begin to, you know, shake your fist at it and think, can’t we just do something about this at a higher level?
And so, so it doesn’t happen again. Um, and that led me to get involved in a medical innovation event. Uh, there’s a whole bunch of, there’s a very good medical entrepreneurship and innovation community around Boston. Uh, And I kept meeting people that went to the Sloan School at MIT and found them very engaging.
And so I, I went there to get an MBA and training and entrepreneurship and global innovation. Uh, yeah, it’s kind of, it’s kind of a weird career among sort of ping ponging around different industries.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks a lot for sharing a card. It’s, uh, it’s a great journey. It’s not weird. It’s a great journey.
But I’m going to follow up on a question because you’ve been, as you said, your career span between tech, business, and medicine and kind of combining those. Is there, you feel any common thread in between all of these different experiences that you’ve had?
Carl Dahlberg: Yeah. I mean, I, I get excited about solving problems and, uh, I get most excited about solving important problems for real people.
I think this is a thing that drew me into emergency medicine is that, uh, you are, uh, whatever problem is in front of you is kind of by definition, the worst thing that has happened to that person, uh, in a while. And, uh, it’s an emergency, like they need something done with that. And I like the creativity of taking a situation and trying to make it better.
Um, and I think that that is why I didn’t stick with the financial industry because I like solving problems for people. Um,
Naji Gehchan: that’s the thread. I love that. Solving problem for people. And I, I’m an ER doc too, as you know, uh, it’s certainly, you feel that you’re solving a problem that is saving a life. And obviously in the healthcare industry broadly, this is what we, what we Uh, we, uh, we work for and this is what we do.
Uh, can I ask you what is the most exciting problem that you feel we will be solving in the next decade? Oh, boy.
Carl Dahlberg: Um, you know, I think there’s a total overhaul that needs to take place in the U. S. healthcare system. Um, This is not a specific problem that needs to be solved, but, uh, I think we have this sort of triple point where we’re spending an incredible amount of money, you know, far more than any other industrialized nation and getting very mediocre.
healthcare outcomes in terms of population health. You can, uh, you can measure that any number of ways. And we come out, you know, kind of the middle of the road when compared to other countries. And at the same point, uh, we’re same time, we’re burning out our healthcare, uh, workers, you know, physicians and nurses are, are leaving, uh, and honestly patients are firing us allopathic healthcare, uh, in frustration, you know, the systems that we’re creating, Aren’t solving the problems people have and I think the industry is the big problem is that the industry needs to be redesigned.
So it solves people problem better. And I think a lot of savings will come out of that. Uh, and that’s the problem I’m excited about solving right now.
Naji Gehchan: So can we dig into this? And I know you’ve been mentoring a lot of entrepreneurs, startups, obviously working in the healthcare space and trying to solve it.
Is there a single advice when you, uh, when you meet with those entrepreneurs? Who are solving those big issues that will help the society. Is there any advice that you would give them as they start this journey?
Carl Dahlberg: So every, every situation is different, but the things I mentor people on are, uh, sort of listening to the customers that, you know, talking to the people that are actually going to be using your solution to figure out, uh, what exactly the problem is as they see it.
And, uh, how they measure that and then designing a solution from there. Um, I think that’s a pretty consistent focus. I work with a lot of student teams at MIT and, and they’re very brilliant people, much smarter than I am. Um, but being brilliant often blinds you to, uh, sort of the listening that you have to do sometimes.
I think this will resonate with you as an emergency physician. You know, it doesn’t matter what you think is wrong with the patient. Um, what matters is what is wrong with the patient and you have to discover that and you can only do that by learning. Uh, so I think that’s the first lesson is to take your assumptions, uh, list them out so you know what you think and then put all that aside as you go listen and explore.
Naji Gehchan: I love this. Um, as you, um, as you’ve been doing this with several entrepreneurs, seeing startups and also through your, uh, amazing background of solving all over the time from IT to now saving lives, what is your biggest leadership lesson really between again, leading ER, And helping entrepreneurs and startups solve some of the most complex issues in the world.
Carl Dahlberg: So it’s funny that you ask that, you know, I, I, I didn’t used to think I was a leader in any way, you know, Hey, what do you do as an emergency physician? You’re not in charge of, might not be in charge of the department or the hospital or, but, uh, in emergency medicine, just working as a clinician, you lead people through, you know, some of the.
Most transformative experiences of their lives. You, you lead the team, uh, to align the incentives and. Uh get the nurses and the techs and and the radiologists and everybody else working on this problem any consultants you have Anyway, um, I think Aligning the incentives is the best model of leadership.
I have right now um I think that the old model of physician leadership is that the Physician has all the authority and all the knowledge and tells whatever everybody else to do and I think that’s very antiquated Um, I think modern leaders Are not The owners of intelligence and the owners of the plan that they, they embody the mission and that their main skills are to communicate the mission to the various participants or the various stakeholders or team members.
That, uh, you know, you bring the why and
Naji Gehchan: help the other people bring out the how. That’s powerful. Embodying the mission and aligning the incentives. I’m going to go to a section where I will give you a word and I would love your first reaction to it. The first, uh, the first one is innovation.
Carl Dahlberg: Innovation, creativity, and resilience.
What about entrepreneurship? So entrepreneurship is taking an idea or the idea of an innovation and actually turning it into something in the real world. To my mind that means solving an important problem for people. for people.
Naji Gehchan: So, so I, I love, I love how you always come back to not only the real problem, but for real people.
Can, can you expand a little bit more about this thread you have and this philosophy you have about, about it being for real people?
Carl Dahlberg: Uh, you know, when I, when I get involved in business, it’s an academic exercise for me. Um, I get most engaged when I am helping someone. I think that capitalism itself exists to serve the needs of people.
Uh, and, and this, I come to this perspective as a physician, uh, I have no problem with making a profit. Um, but I think that the organization should serve the needs of its customers, the needs of its employees, uh, and the needs of its stakeholders all together. And, uh, That makes healthcare a little different than other industries, right?
If you’re selling widgets, then you can sit back and say, I’m maximizing value to shareholders. I did my job, but I don’t think that’s enough in healthcare. And I think that we have too many people that view it that way. And, and it’s, it’s taking us healthcare off our mission.
Naji Gehchan: The third word is health equity.
Carl Dahlberg: So, Hmm. Hmm. Health equity is second nature to me. I, I think, I guess health, health equity to me means learning to see your own biases, your implicit biases that you don’t recognize you have. It’s kind of like learning to see your own eyeballs. Oh, which is tough and usually takes the assistance of somebody outside of you to do.
As an emergency physician, I provide health care without, you know, any knowledge of who can pay and who can’t. That doesn’t matter to me. It’s a fortunate perspective in the system. But I have to recognize that, you know, the places that I practice in the U. S., we have resources that other parts of the world don’t have.
Interestingly, one of those resources is not intelligence. You know, we are not the smartest people in the U. S. And, uh, I think that the creativity and the, the, the spirit of innovation that comes from working with limited resources, uh, is actually a great teacher and that we can all learn from that. Um, I’m not a fan of physicians that walk around saying, I know the best and I’m going to tell you how it is.
Uh, I’m much more of a, uh, a fan of a physician that says, here’s what I want to accomplish, and this is why, and how can we accomplish this together? Is that a reaction to that one?
Naji Gehchan: It’s a great, it’s a great reaction, and I relate to several things you said. The last one is spread love in organizations.
Carl Dahlberg: Oh, spreading love in organizations.
So, I’m a big fan of spreading joy in organizations. Love is a little nebulous to me, but joy, I understand instinctively. Um, you know, when you say go spreading love, you know, maybe you love your boss. That sounds weird. Do you love your employee? I think that empowering people to find joy in their practice.
Is is more on the mark. And when I say joy, you know, I’m in touch with my own joy when I’m solving problems for people like that is a joyful activity for me. It’s not always fun, by the way, there’s a often it’s confusion between joy and fun. Um, the two go hand in hand, but frequently you can be working on a really hard problem.
That’s really meaningful to you and not having much fun at it because you have to hit your head against a proverbial wall a few dozen times. Um. That makes sense to me that resilience and focus on the mission, uh, spreading love and organizations I think should be a natural by product of people finding joy in what they’re doing.
Naji Gehchan: I love this. Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?
Carl Dahlberg: Um, boy, I feel like, I feel like I have a lot of wisdom to offer. I just have, What I’ve experienced, I would say healthcare leaders, uh, should communicate and, and gather and bind together. I think there should be clinical input into leadership at all levels.
And because if you’re a healthcare leader, you know, your clinicians own the mission. They are the people that are enacting your mission. And if they’re not having input into the systems you’re creating, um, You’re potentially making a horrible mistake and you’ll never know unless you’re listening to them.Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Carl, for being with me today and this great chat.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Carl Dahlberg first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
In this episode, Naji welcomes Emilia McLaughlin, a biotech founder and CEO, to discuss her journey into the field. Emilia shares that her initial interest in medicine led her to study biochemistry, but she eventually found her passion in parasitology. She describes her shift from academic research to entrepreneurship as motivated by a desire to directly impact patient care, which she found lacking in academic work.
Emilia highlights her experience with the incubator program Entrepreneur First, which catalyzed her transition into biotech entrepreneurship. She emphasizes the importance of building strong teams, hiring the right people, and maintaining a focus on patient needs in the biotech industry. She discusses the challenges of being a female founder in a predominantly male industry and the importance of supporting other women in making the leap from academia to entrepreneurship. Throughout the conversation, Emilia emphasizes the value of bravery and risk-taking in entrepreneurship, particularly for women, and underscores the importance of keeping patients at the forefront of healthcare innovation.
"Nobody has all the answers. You've just got to throw yourself in and do the best you can."
MEET OUR GUEST Emilia McLaughlin, Founder and CEO at Kyron Bio.
Emilia McLaughlin is founder and CEO of kyron.bio, a startup based in Paris dedicated to pioneering tomorrow’s therapeutics. Originally from London, Emilia moved to Paris in 2017 to pursue a PhD in parasite molecular biology at the Institut Pasteur. Upon completing her PhD, she founded kyron.bio with the aim of enhancing the efficacy of protein therapeutics through innovative glycan modifications. Since its inception, Emilia has successfully recruited a world-class scientific team, established a state-of-the-art laboratory, secured core technology IP, and garnered over €1.2M in competitive grants from the French government and the EU. Additionally, she has raised €1.1M in equity funding. Currently, the company is testing its first therapeutic in human serum and has developed a robust pipeline of innovative products.
In 2024, Emilia was recognized as a Woman in Leadership by the European Innovation Commission. She is passionate about empowering women to take on leadership roles and supports academics who aspire to transition into entrepreneurship.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Emilia McLaughlin, founder and CEO of kyron.bio, a startup based in Paris dedicated to pioneering tomorrow’s therapeutics. Originally from London, Emilia moved to Paris in 2017 to pursue a PhD in parasite molecular biology at the Institut Pasteur. Upon completing her PhD, she founded kyron.bio with the aim of enhancing the efficacy of protein therapeutics through innovative glycan modifications. Since its inception, Emilia has successfully recruited a world-class scientific team, established a state-of-the-art laboratory, secured core technology IP, and garnered over €1.2M in competitive grants from the French government and the EU. Additionally, she has raised €1.1M in equity funding. Currently, the company is testing its first therapeutic in human serum and has developed a robust pipeline of innovative products. In 2024, Emilia was recognized as a Woman in Leadership by the European Innovation Commission. She is passionate about empowering women to take on leadership roles and supports academics who aspire to transition into entrepreneurship.
Emilia, it is great to have you with me today!
Emilia McLaughlin: Thank you, Naji. Great to be here.
Naji Gehchan: I would love for us to hear more about your personal story.
What brought you to biology and now founding and leading a biotech?
Emilia McLaughlin: Yeah. Okay. Um, so I think I’ve always been very, very interested in people and, um, illnesses, medicine. I, I really strongly considered, um, being a doctor for a long time. Um, I don’t really enjoy being in hospitals and that was one of the things that put me off, but I, I really wanted to find a way to help kind of, um, deliver.
therapies to humans, whether that was me doing it personally or helping the kind of, um, the generation, generation of those medicines. And I, I thought a long time I went, I studied biochemistry and, um, I thought afterwards again about doing a grad scheme for, for medicine. Um, finally decided that it was not for me and that I wanted to pursue a more academic route.
Um, I fell into parasitology, um, while I was at UCL during my undergraduate and I ended up with a brilliant, um, professor, Professor Osborne, where I, I worked under him on the malaria parasite. And I absolutely loved that project because you never question why you go to work when you work on malaria, you know, half a million people die every year and it’s an incredibly, um, We need a lot of brains on this to work on this.
And I found it fascinating both from the biological side and also, um, from the human side as well. So that kind of led me into this world of parasitology. Um, I then wanted to continue in that field, um, and that led me to my PhD in, um, in parasite molecular biology at Institute Pasteur in Paris, where I looked at African sleeping sickness.
Um, I love my PhD, but I knew that I didn’t want to stay in the lab. I think at that point, I began to recognize there was a bit of a distance between the academic research and what was going on for people in the field. Um, and it felt that what I was doing, you know, spending hours on a microscope, looking, looking at tiny green dots, um, trying to count how many GFP there were or something.
I couldn’t see the translation and I’ve always been a people person and I love working with, with people. And I think that’s where. I didn’t know what I wanted to do when I finished my PhD. I’d never thought really about starting my own company. Um, and then entrepreneurship kind of crossed my path because, uh, actually due to a tech incubator that kind of had been contact in contact with me since the second year of my PhD.
And they were like, we think you should join. We think you’d be great. You know, they make it kind of no risk from the minute I joined them. The incubator is called entrepreneur first for people that know it. And they kind of put tech and business profiles together before they have an idea and before they have a team.
The minute I joined that incubator, I was like, this is the world I want to be in. This is absolutely fascinating. The pace, the impact, the, um, the possibilities, the excitement, being so people focused as well, you know, now my job all day, uh, day in, day out is talking to people, and I absolutely love that and what I, the work that we do is also for, for patient populations and for individuals.
And I think that’s always been really, really important for me. And whilst I loved the academic path. slightly lost that connection, especially where I was working on a rare parasitic disease that is basically in remission now. Um, the WHO doesn’t recognize it as a, as a public health concern anymore. So it’s like, well, yeah.
Well,
Naji Gehchan: thank you so much for sharing this. And I, what you’re framing at this really, I love how you said biology and humans. Uh, so, You know, as you were talking about what you do today as a, as a founder of, uh, of the biotech you’re leading, you said it’s mainly with people and human and discussing with them.
And obviously this is not, I would say what people would, the first thing would come to mind, uh, for startups and biotech, you know, like it’s more about the science, the discovery, what, what are you doing? So I love how you. framed it. I’m sure. And I know there’s a lot of science behind it, but I want to dig a little bit deeper on, on this aspect.
And how do you see the people aspect actually of the biotech as a leader?
Emilia McLaughlin: I think it’s absolutely central. I think it comes in a few axes. The first is in the people that you hire. Um, Um, and having a very, very strong team with you, um, and in being a leader to the people in the team that, that, that you’ve recruited, um, number one, so your job as the leader is to support them to, to be the best they can be.
Um, secondly, it comes in the external communications of the company and making sure that what you’re doing, um, is. There is a problem that you’re solving and someone needs what you’re working on because I think that it’s very easy as an academic biotech, you know, when people got academic backgrounds, just to solve scientific problems because they’re interesting and they’re challenging.
But that’s not what we’re trying to do. We’re trying to make an impact for people. So it’s really important that we’re constantly out there talking to patients, talking to physicians, talking to patient groups, talking to people in the pharma industry. Talking to people that have many more years than, than experience than anyone in our team does.
Um, because combined, that’s where we’re going to really be able to find where the pain points are and be able to make sure that any product that we develop is needed by the industry. And we’re not going to just develop something that someone else has gone and done anyway. You know, um, that’s the only way that you’re going to is by.
being people focused. And that’s what I believe.
Naji Gehchan: And really like focusing on this unmet need, as you said, and the people you hire. So if I, if I move to how, how did you build your team? How do you hire people? Uh, and how do you bring talent into your organization? I’d love to know your philosophy.
Emilia McLaughlin: Yeah. Um, I think hiring is one of the most important things for a startup success.
It’s, it’s incredibly challenging and it’s incredibly, um, It’s, it’s incredibly time consuming. The best advice I’ve ever been given was by another founder. And, um, am I allowed to swear on this podcast?
Naji Gehchan: Be yourself.
Emilia McLaughlin: Yeah. Well, basically he said, if it’s not a fuck, yes, it’s a no, um, that’s like, I’m constantly reminding my team when we’re going through the recruitment process and we’ve been recruiting for six months, nine months, whatever.
It’s taking forever to find the perfect profile. But I think hiring is somewhere you have to be a perfectionist in a startup. You’re going to get it wrong. Yeah. People change, people have different needs, people’s things, you know, their life changes as well. But I think that you need to really follow your gut in terms of who you think can cope and who can cope in an academic lab is very different to who can cope in a startup.
You really need to Cut out all sorts of perfectionism out of people because perfectionism kills speed in a startup. And so I’ve learned a lot in my personal journey about the traits that I’m looking for in someone. I want everyone in the team to be an entrepreneur. I want everyone in the team to be a hustler.
These are not necessarily easy things to find, especially when you’re trying to recruit directly out of PhD, but they, they definitely exist, but you’ve just got to hunt for them. And it takes time when you find the right people. It’s amazing. And it’s worth waiting.
Naji Gehchan: I love the, what you shared and I usually frame it and if there is a doubt, there is no doubt, like whenever you feel a doubt in it.
The more polite way to put it. Yeah, probably. So, you know, like probably the S side. Uh, well, you, you talked about some of the trade, entrepreneur, hustler, Obviously, like the background of science, et cetera. Um, so during the interview, like I’d love, since you’re passionate about this, like, how do you assess this?
Have you made wrong hires? What is the wrong hire? Is it the wrong casting? I’d love to understand how you think about these only have successes. Please let me know how you did this.
Emilia McLaughlin: Of course, I haven’t only had success. There’s another founder. Another piece of advice I had was it’s about a 60 percent success rate.
And I see, I find that as well. Um, and that if you’re hitting that, it’s pretty good. Um, I think I’m getting, we’re really learning as a team. Um, it’s not just me, it’s other members of the team as well. We’re learning to really assess. Um, what does someone truly and deeply want from their life? Um, and are they prepared to work out of their comfort zone and go the extra mile?
And I think there’s a lot of ways that you can assess that. You can assess it practically by putting them out of their comfort zone in a case study and saying, okay, come back to me with, with answers to these things in 48 hours and see how they cope with it. You can assess it by putting them on the spot with kind of more personal questions as well.
I like to like really ask people about, um, about more personal angles of how they cope with stress and things like that in interviews. So I think there’s, there’s a couple of ways that you can do that, but above anything, I think you have to listen to your gut as well, because while someone might on paper look perfect, if your gut feeling is that they’re really not just going to be able to handle it, then You know, you have to trust that and go with it.
And, and I need to also trust other people in my team when they’re recruiting that, that if their gut’s telling them, no, it’s not going to work, then that that’s, then that’s a no, you know, if it’s not, if it’s not 10s across the board, it’s, it’s a no.
Naji Gehchan: So you, you are also passionate about, uh, helping transitions from academic, specifically women into, uh, into entrepreneurship and, um, building startups.
Uh, what, what is your biggest advice for, uh, From your learning experience, you would give people who want to do this jump?
Emilia McLaughlin: I would just say be brave and take the leap. I think particularly with academics, we often feel that we need to get everything right. And we need to have everything, we have to have all the answers figured out. But you really don’t, nobody does, and you’ve just got to throw yourself in and do the absolute best that you can do in, in, in, in any moment.
Nobody knows the future. Nobody knows what’s going to happen. You know, we’ve got to just try our best, but it’s the opportunity cost of not trying, um, I think is, is where you, where you’re missing out. If you don’t put yourself out there, I think. I’m particularly passionate about supporting other women in this transition, because I think women have a tendency to be more risk averse.
And, you know, a lot of people, when I started my company, particularly female colleagues would say to me, you’re so brave. Wow. You’re so brave. Why are you doing that? And I’d look at them. I said, why, why am I so brave? What have I done? Like, you know, I haven’t jumped off a, you know, I’m not jumping off a. Um, a bungee jump or something.
I’m, I’m just trying, you know, it’s not, it’s not, I’m not, uh, it’s about your perception of risk for them. They, they were seeing all the risks, but none of the upside. And it’s like changing that mindset of like, yeah, but the possibilities are also incredible. So I don’t see it as, uh, as brave. I just see it as like, it’s, it’s an opportunity that you’ve got to grasp.
And I see
Naji Gehchan: that you would do it again and again. And I love this energy that is transmissible. Let me ask you something specifically about Women Founder. You know in the US, and I’d love to hear your thoughts about it globally and in France as you’re in France now. It’s, it’s unfortunately still hard, underrepresented and underfunded, even though I think like more and more data is showing that, uh, companies founded by women and led by women performs better.
So how is it in France? How do you see things in Europe? Are we getting better there? And how are you advocating for that?
Emilia McLaughlin: Yeah, I think it’s incredibly similar. It’s across the board. You know, it’s 1 percent of companies are founded by 100 percent female founded companies. And only a small proportion more are male and female co founded.
But, you know, it’s a very small proportion of companies that are just led by women. I think, um, that that there is challenges with the ecosystem, but I also think that there’s a lot to do with that risk taking mindset of female individuals and how we can support them to feel comfortable. You know, I’m part of a women in leadership program.
And when we get together as a group of women, you just notice how How much we were often afraid to make mistakes, I guess we want to have all the answers figured out and how to basically encourage women to just be more bullish on things, just to go for it. Even if they don’t have all of the answers and they’re not perfect, how can we just say, just give it a try?
You know, it’s worth, it’s, it’s worth the risk, take the leap. And I think we’re not taught as a society to take, to, to, to push ourselves in that way so much. Um, And that of course applies to many men as well. It’s not only women, but I think that that, that partly contributes. And then there’s other challenges around, you know, job instability of running a startup.
You know, there’s, there’s not much support for that. I do think as a, as a female founder, I get additional support actually. Um, I would say like, I’m very well supported by the European innovation commission. They’ve been incredibly supportive to me. I’ve got a I’ve got a, um, Women Tech EU grant from them that specifically, um, supports female deep tech founders in the EU.
Um, and through that, I’m mentored by some amazing women as well. Um, and that really helps me. So I think there’s things that I’ve been able to access and benefit because I’m a female founder. Um. That said, you know, the pharma industry, a lot of the leaders are, are led by, by most of the leaders in the pharma industry are men.
So I’m, I’m operating in a very heavily male dominated, um, industry when we look at the leadership side and that is challenging, but I’d say in the startup world, it’s beginning to become a more supportive ecosystem, but I think we need change at the level of empowering women to, to feel that they can take the risk and maybe some way of.
mitigating that it feels like such an extreme career risk, I think, for some women to take the leap to be a founder. So how can we support them in that?
Naji Gehchan: Certainly. And, uh, yeah, I’m, I’m obviously also passionate about this and what we can do, uh, not only from a startup, uh, I see those moves happening in a lot in Europe and the US to, uh, support for, uh, founders startups, but the, the it’s better, but as you said, there is a long road and certainly also for corporate where, uh, this is one of the biggest.
focus that we should be having as leaders, uh, empowering women. Um, how, how do you know when, if we move into the science part and just for people to know also about what you do, uh, within your company from a biotech standpoint, how would you define what you do in a simple, in a simple way? What are you working on?
Emilia McLaughlin: So we work on sugars. So sugars are carbohydrate molecules or glycans that added to the surface of, um, of protein drugs that are really important, um, for the efficacy and the longevity. So how well a drug performs and what we have at Chiron bio is a unique set of tools to control those sugars. So, um, physically how long they are, how many of them they are and how they behave in the human body.
And we’re applying this, uh, specifically to autoimmune diseases, whether it’s a, whether it’s a huge unmet need, um, less than 50 percent of patients are in remission from disease. And we’re using these innovative approaches to sugar engineering to design versions of drugs that have much, um, higher efficacy in, in, in patients.
Um, and so that, You know, we can target some of these major issues in the industry of, of patients being in chronic pain for, for life at some times. So developing much more, um, efficacious treatments for the patients.
Naji Gehchan: This is great and certainly impactful. What is currently your biggest challenge? Is it scientific?
Is it funding? What is your biggest challenge as an organization?
Emilia McLaughlin: That’s a great question. Um, I mean, there are so many challenges when you’re on the laptop. Um, they range from very, very small things to very, very big things. Um, I think the biggest challenge for us globally is getting the commercial development right, like making sure that we’re developing our, yeah, it’s our, it’s making sure that we’re really, um, yeah, it’s, it’s the commercial development side.
I can, I can dive into more of that if you want, but, um, it’s, it’s the making sure that we are developing a drug that rheumatologists will say, yes, this is going in my patient.
Naji Gehchan: Well, this is, this is, I love that you’re framing it that way. And can you remind us which stage you are, if it’s, Public, obviously, like, I don’t want you to go to things.
You don’t want to share, but
Emilia McLaughlin: yeah, you
Naji Gehchan: are. And why so early in your stage, you’re starting to think about that. That’s, that’s a great point. Uh, actually I talked with some biotechs. They, you know, they are focused on their pre clin and the innovation they have, and they don’t think about like, let’s make sure that it gets into patient’s hands at the end of the day, because this is what we should all be doing.
Great. So I love that you framed it that way. So can you help us understand where are you in the journey?
Emilia McLaughlin: Yeah, we’re preclinical, but I think we, you know, we, we have a set of tools that we can apply in a lot of different ways. And so my job as a CEO is to find the absolute best path where we can apply this.
And I think probably contrary to other biotechs where they’re spinning out one specific molecule and they’re fixed on their path, you know, they can’t do that. they can’t shift at all. We have a lot of potential with what we’re doing for the sugar engineering. There are so many ways we can apply this in the, you know, in, in the, in the pipeline for us, but for our first kind of commercial success, we need to get it right.
And that’s why it’s very, very important that. We are choosing the best application. That’s going to have the biggest impact in the clinic. Um, so, and for me, it’s really the clinicians, because those are the people that make the decision. Of course, in the U S there’s also the healthcare providers that we have to think about the pricing.
We have to think about this a lot, because if we can’t be competitive on pricing, no, one’s going to want our, our eventual drugs. So I think it, it’s very important for me that we’re building something that is for patients. And the person that will decide whether it goes to a patient will be the clinician.
So that’s where we’re very focused on, on that side of things, uh, in understanding, um, how can we make things better for the patients?
Naji Gehchan: So I mean, yeah, I would, uh, move now to a section where I’m going to give you a word and I would love your first reaction to it.
Emilia McLaughlin: Okay.
Naji Gehchan: The first one is leadership.
Emilia McLaughlin: I would say freedom.
Naji Gehchan: Oh, I want to, uh, it’s the first time I hear this reaction after 130 plus interviews, I’d love to learn more about it.
Emilia McLaughlin: You want me to expand?
Naji Gehchan: Yes.
Emilia McLaughlin: Yeah. Um, I think like being a leader is, there’s a lot of freedom in that. Like you, first of all, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re your own boss, but also you have your freedom to run your team and, and, and do things be dynamic, be agile in the way that, that.
That you want to do it. I think there’s a lot of freedom in being a leader. Um, and you, you get to, I mean, I’m, I’m really talking about being a CEO here, but where you get to, to choose your team, you, you get to, you know, design how the team runs and things like that. And there’s an awful lot of freedom there.
Like the, the kind of
Naji Gehchan: what about entrepreneurship,
Emilia McLaughlin: uh, excitement,
Naji Gehchan: biotech,
Emilia McLaughlin: um, patients.
Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread love and organizations.
Emilia McLaughlin: Um, leadership would come in.
Naji Gehchan: Can you expand on that?
Emilia McLaughlin: Well, I mean, it’s what I’m thinking, what comes to mind when I think about your podcast and kind of building up like leadership and, and, and hearing from different leaders.
Um, but I think leadership is also about spreading love in organizations and, and within teams as well, and making sure we’re working together in a collaborative
Naji Gehchan: way. Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?
Emilia McLaughlin: Um, I think it’s just keeping the patients, um, at the forefront of what we’re doing.
I think it’s really, really important. Um, we have some amazing innovations out there. How can we get these to patients as fast as, as fast as possible?
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Emilia, for being with me today. And a huge congrats to what you’ve achieved already with, um, with your company. And wishing you all the best in the next steps.
Thank you again.
Emilia McLaughlin: Great to chat today.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Emilia McLaughlin first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
In this episode, Naji talked with Anthony Dowidowicz, a physician leader with a background in engineering and emergency medicine, about the exciting potential of quantum computing in healthcare. Anthony explains how his fascination with quantum mechanics led him from engineering to medical school and eventually to become a physician leader.
They delve into the power of quantum computing, its unique characteristics, and its potential applications in healthcare. Anthony highlights that while quantum computing won't replace classical computers, it excels in solving complex problems, making it invaluable in healthcare where vast amounts of data need to be processed.
Throughout the discussion, Anthony stresses the importance of virtuous leadership in healthcare, urging leaders to prioritize patients' well-being over short-term profits and to advocate for the ethical and equitable use of technology in healthcare.
"Quantum computing can make healthcare more equitable and personalized"
MEET OUR GUEST Anthony Dowidowicz a physician executive.
Dr. Anthony Dowidowicz is a physician executive who has served as a senior physician leader of health systems and health plans. He is an emergency physician by background and is a graduate of the MIT Sloan school of management where he founded and coordinates the MIT Physician Leadership Group.
As an engineer and lifelong technology enthusiast, Dr. Dowidowicz’s professional interests include physician leadership, health system design, and emerging computing technologies.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this special episode in partnership with Boston Biotechnology Summit, a bridge to collaboration and innovative synergies between healthcare stakeholders. I am joined today by Jonathan Levy CEO of Pepkon. Jonathan is a Pharmacist from University of Paris with a masters in management from ESSEC Business school. He has worked in various environment of the healthcare sector in France from pharmacy to hospital, and also in big pharma and startups. His last role before joining Pepkon was within Truffle Capital a French VC; where he participated in several investments in biotech and also company creations, m&a and licensing deals. Two years ago Jonathan joined PepKon, a startup developing first in class therapeutic peptides in oncology, first as a COO, and now leading the company as its CEO.
Jonathan Levy: Thank you, Naji. I’m very happy to be here with you.
Naji Gehchan: Well, first, congratulations again on winning the first prize of the Boston Biotech Summit in 2024. Before we go there and what you do at Pepcon, I’m really interested and eager to hear more about your personal story, what brought you to pharma, healthcare, and now becoming a CEO in a biotech.
Jonathan Levy: Thank you. Okay. So, yes, so when I was young, I was, I was very interested in science, uh, medicine, and I think it’s, so helping others.
Uh, I really was looking up to my, uh, family members, like my grandfather and my aunt who had that DNA of being a doctor, you know, and helping others. And uh, and in the same time, I was very interested in the business aspect, leading companies and wanting to have a positive impact with my hands on, uh, you know, always daring to be in very challenging situations.
Uh, because that’s, I feel that’s where you learn the most. And so I have the example of my, uh, I mean, several entrepreneurs around me, like my father was CEO of a big company. So for me, being an entrepreneur in the biotech field is really a perfect mix of my aspiration in medical and business field.
Naji Gehchan: Thanks for sharing that. Can you tell us, uh, that now that you’re doing it, I love how you’re framing it between science and leading organization and the biotech feels like the best of both were to. Can you share with us what have you learned so far as a leader and as a, as an individual who has built this company from early on?
Jonathan Levy: First, I’d like to say that I didn’t create the company, I, I joined it a few months after it was created. And, uh, I think the first thing I’ve learned is, uh, I mean, I don’t know if that’s something you learned, but it’s humility because I’ve joined a project that was, uh, Uh, I’ve had a very, like a breakthrough science with a few amazing people.
And I, I had to like recruit some, uh, other, uh, great skilled people, you know? So the first thing for me was big, humble, uh, listening, learning. And then after a period, I. And I started to really, uh, take the leadership, uh, be the strategic vision, uh, take people with me, you know, and, uh, of course take the decisions.
So that’s why I, uh, I became a CEO of the company and, um, and I think it was an amazing experience for me to, to, to become a leader as a very young age because I learned, uh, a lot and very fast.
Naji Gehchan: So as you’re going through the journey, you know, I always said like science humbles us. I love that you started with this. Like there’s the humidity that you’re building, I imagine by building the team, as you said, but also with the science you’re, um, you’re starting, you have great science so far preclinically.
Can you tell us a little bit more about what you do and what you’re trying to solve at Pepcon? Sure.
Jonathan Levy: So at Pepcon, uh, we develop therapeutic peptides, which come from Uh, the academic research of, uh, the lab of Professor Philippe Caroyan, so it’s French academic research. And we developed first in class therapeutic peptide.
What’s very unique is we’re exploring a new, uh, cell based pathway, which targets CD47 in a very selective way, which means that it’s killing cancer cells while sparing healthy cells. It’s very different from what’s currently in development. And we, and the lead product we have demonstrated efficacy on several indications, including solid tumors.
Uh, several kind of leukemia also, even refractory patients. Uh, so we’re now conducting preclinical studies on animals and our goal is to start a first in human clinical trial, uh, end of next year. For that, we need a first to raise a Series A. And as of now, we’ve, uh, been lucky enough to raise 5 million euros, including several grants from a BPI in France, which is a look.
Naji Gehchan: Well, it’s also a testament of your work, you know, and I wouldn’t just frame it as like, even if you’re doing it. Um, so as you look through, you’re saying, but actually going through series A, building a phase, uh, phase one with multiple indication in oncology. Uh, as a CEO today of the organization, what is your biggest challenge and what is your biggest opportunity you see for the next, uh, month?
Jonathan Levy: So I think every biotech has the same challenge. It’s a race against time with limited resources and really like daily ups and downs. So I think one of the main challenges is raising money. And it’s also raising money and differentiate yourself on the scientific aspect. in a very competitive and international environment.
And I think it’s in, in, uh, oncology, it’s very, uh, I mean, oncology is really a very competitive field. You really have to demonstrate the differentiation and you need to convince not only the doctors, but also the investors, the pharma company, and, uh, uh, you have to fit with the strategy, you know, the pharma companies and also take.
In consideration, uh, the, the real data you have. So it’s really a mixed of, uh, of, uh, uh, the data, the pharma, uh, need the business investors. And, uh, of course, and what’s most, most important is, uh, the patient because it’s, it was started with patients at the end. The, the common goal is, uh, bringing patients, uh, safer and more effective treatment.
And that’s really the, uh, the, the goal of, uh, of PEPCON, and, uh, I would say another challenge. I think it’s a common, uh, common one for CEO, it’s recruiting the best team, the best skilled people. Of course, uh, you bring to the team people who are way smarter than you with skills that you don’t have yourself.
And the job of the CEO is to bring out the best of each of us, of each of the team member, uh, motivate them, inspire them to, to, to be with you in this, uh, in this journey. And then, uh, take the best decisions for the, for the company. So, uh, yeah, in the end, I’m very, I mean, I’d say it’s because you asked for the challenge, but there’s the opportunity to, I say the opportunity is that I’m just lucky to be part of the, this project, which is fascinating.
I’m learning every day with people who are, uh, way smarter and experienced than me, and, uh, I think the opportunity that they motivated every day. By this goal, which is, um, really a noble cause, which is, which I feel is bigger than, uh, than this. And
Naji Gehchan: this is, this is crucial as you’re saying, it’s the core of what we do in this industry, uh, trying to bring new hope, new medicines for several people who are in need, uh, for, for better treatments.
Uh, you, you did a great segue to my next question about team. So as you’ve been building your team, growing your team. within the startup. How do you think about it as you scale up your company and move from a stage to another? Um,
Jonathan Levy: so first, as I told you, the main thing is, uh, is to bring to the team, people who are very skilled, but it’s also bring people who have the same motivation and values. So, so we share the common goal, you know, of, of treating patients. And, uh, uh, we also look at personality and soft skill because we really need the team to be, uh, working together well in order to, to advance the project.
So yeah.
Naji Gehchan: Perfect combination of skills. And as you’re saying, uh, focusing on having the shared purpose, you said, and the shared values with your organization. Is it when you think about it, I know for the Boston summit, you came to Boston, where you won the prize. Is there like. Top line differences that you felt between the ecosystem that you have in France and in Europe compared to the one you saw in Boston?
Jonathan Levy: Uh, yeah, of course, Boston is really like when you go there, you arrive there, you feel that there is a huge ecosystem in a very small place with all the investor or the pharma startups and all the best hospitals. So I think the combination of All these very, uh, smart people in the healthcare sector is really, uh, a great opportunity to move the projects, maybe, uh, faster and, uh, and, uh, but I would say that in France, so we have a great ecosystem, which is, uh, growing up, um, more and more.
And we also have. Uh, great, uh, financing opportunities in terms of non divertive opportunities. So, um, uh, I’d say that, uh, the Boston ecosystem will be a great next step for us. And that today we, we are, uh, well established in the French ecosystem and that we have many great opportunities here in France.
Naji Gehchan: No, for sure. But I’m biased. I’m French too. But it’s, I think the science has no limits, has no frontiers, and you guys have great science and great teams working on this science to bring it to people. So wishing you all the best in this journey. I’m going to move now to a section where I will give you a word and I would love your reaction to it.
So the first one is leadership.
Jonathan Levy: As I said before, first is being humble, listening to people in the team, and then, uh, providing really a strategic direction that motivate them to, uh, give the best, follow you and, um, and, uh, you really also have to take the decision for the team in the end. It’s even if people give you a lot of advices, a lot of information, it’s you who have to handle the decision.
and give the example and the vision. Yeah. Second one is innovation.
Uh, I say innovation in, in healthcare is, uh, not some thing. It’s like not only something new. It’s, uh, it’s not only an invention it’s, Something that is new, but that also will have, uh, will be useful for patients that will make their life better. And that’s what we, of course, all work for. Um, I’d say that, uh, we’re lucky to have very smart people in the lab.
Very smart scientists with amazing, uh, inventions and, uh, to make them innovation, you need to take them out of the lab and bring them to, to patient. And, uh, that’s, uh, that’s the job. That’s the job of a company.
The third one is VC VC. You like venture capital. Yeah. Um, venture capital is, uh, necessary because you can’t Advance a project in biotech with without money. Uh, not easy to convince because they are very smart and they have smart analyst. Uh, but I guess they have the same goal on us to bring, uh, uh, value, to create value, but also to bring, uh, an innovations to patients.
Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread glove in organizations.
Jonathan Levy: Um, I’d say so spread love for me is to grow, uh, to help people around you grow as well. So to share your experience to help people help them be happy and they, um, achieve their personal goals and ambitions. Um But with the aim, like the common aim to, to reach a shared goal, which is, as I said before, bigger than every individual.
And that we can, we can only achieve by working together as a team, with the team, but also with partners, voters, investors, and of course patients. Uh, we, I mean, yeah,
Naji Gehchan: that’s it. Any final word of wisdom gen for healthcare leaders around the world?
Jonathan Levy: I don’t know if I , I have wisdom to share, but I taste that. I, I’d say that in, uh, in, in oncology, uh, but also in other, uh, disease. We all have friend or are relative who are sick, who have cancer. So our common goal is, uh, to help them, uh, to bring, uh, something new for, to, to increase the life of patients. I think it’s, uh, for us, it’s more than a job.
It’s, uh, it’s a patient, it’s, it’s a mission. And, uh, I guess together we, we’re going to, to, I mean, we aim to, to enhance, to advance science, but also advance, uh, uh, health care. And, uh, regarding that. Very often, you know, we have some, uh, um, started competition and I never look at my, uh, I mean, colleagues as competitors.
Really. I think there is, uh, uh, there is a need for everyone to, to bring its science and there, and there is not only one company that we reach. reach the goal, it will, uh, will need everyone.
Naji Gehchan: This is a great way to wrap up this great conversation. I love how you said it: It’s more than a job.
It’s a mission. And it’s so true. We, all of us, Share this mission to hopefully be able to bring more life To patients and more years to their life too. So thank you so much Jonathan for being with me today.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Jonathan Levy first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I’m Naji, your host, joined today by Anthony Yanni Senior Vice President and Global Head of Patient Centricity at Astellas Pharma. Anthony practiced Patient Centricity as a doctor and drug developer before the term even existed – by listening to patients and applying what he learned to offer better care. Now a veteran of senior leadership roles in hospitals and industry, Anthony is among the world’s leading advocates of Patient Centricity as a proven model for healthcare delivery and medicines development. In articles, interviews, talks, and now a book, he reveals Patient Centricity as an overdue disruption that will improve and speed up the treatments many people are waiting for.
Anthony Yanni: Oh, thank you, Naji. It’s great to be here.
Naji Gehchan: I’d love first to hear more about your personal story before going to patient centricity and really why you became a physician and what brought you to the industry and now being an executive and thought leader.
Anthony Yanni: Yeah, so, you know, my journey began a long, long time ago, um, when I decided I wanted to go into healthcare and become a physician. And, um, when I went to medical school, my focus was really on how do I spend as much time with patients? I was very, much energized by the interaction physicians had with patients in the exam room with their family members.
And so, when I graduated medical school, I did a residency in internal medicine, and I spent over 12 years working directly with patients in the exam room at the bedside intensive care unit, all the aspects of patient care that most of us are familiar with from, uh, internal medicine specialists. It was just an amazing experience.
I loved every minute of spending time in the exam room and talking to patients and their families. From that role, I also had an interest in business, and I, uh, subsequently became chief of internal medicine and then chief medical officer of a hospital system, which really gave me a perspective on the delivery of care.
In a broader sense, uh, how do systems deliver care? How do you manage systems? How do you deal with regulations and governments and payers? Um, and so I was really fortunate to see health care from the exam room, from the administration of hospital systems and the delivery of care. And then from there I went on into pharma, first working in regular clinical development role, writing protocols and developing medicines, and then finally into what is now patient centricity, uh, which, um, again, I’ve been in this space for, uh, well over 12 or 13 years.
As well, we could talk more about that.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks for sharing, uh, uh, Anthony, uh, you transitioned from being a clinician to the industry. And so you, you said the very early days of medicine, you were looking how to spend most of the time with, uh, with patients. So I I’d love if you go back in time, what would be your biggest advice you would give to yourself?
As you did this transition.
Anthony Yanni: Yeah, it’s it’s actually I talk about this in the book as well. And this idea of always be open to opportunities. I think I’ve tried to follow that path in my career. You know, you always want to have a plan. You always want to understand where it is. You want to end up, but always be open to change into opportunities that might Okay.
Not be something that was on your mind prior, but gives you an opportunity to do something that’s exciting and, and, um, and, uh, and gives you energy. And so that’s sort of how I approached the transition from clinical practice into hospital administration from hospital administration into industry. Each time I saw an opportunity to have an impact on patients, and that’s what really my, was my baseline focus.
Naji Gehchan: I love it. Opportunity to have an impact on patients. So let’s talk about patients and patient centricity. So it’s your focus, your passion, your obviously publishing, uh, around it for several, uh, years. And now a book, uh, can tell us, well, the name of the book is a Bandana and a Blue Hat. So let’s start a Blue Bird Band.
And a Bluebird. Yeah, A Bandana and a Bluebird. Um, so let’s start first by defining what you mean by patient
Anthony Yanni: centricity. So patient centricity has been a term that’s been sort of used over the last maybe five or seven years, and I think it’s been used in different ways. So I define patient centricity in two ways.
One is an operational definition. It’s the, uh, active integration of patient insights into all decisions leading to patient solutions. So the patient takes part in all of the activities when we’re developing new medicines, new solutions for them. And their inputs help us to make different decisions than we would have if we had not engaged and learned from them.
The second definition is a cultural one. It’s the conscious awareness of the patient in every role, every day, and in every activity inside of a company. Both of those definitions are critical if we are truly going to have a patient centric process that changes the way we develop solutions and changes the way we work together with patients and patient groups.
Naji Gehchan: So can we go on each of one and how as leaders we can influence each of one? So the first one, as you’re saying is, uh, if I did to make it in a simple way, correct me if I’m wrong, I’m thinking One is external. So how to make sure that the insights and the voices are of patients are influencing all the different steps you said from drug development to commercialization.
And then the other one is the internal work to make sure that we are making decisions based on what’s best for patients. So if we, can you give us some examples, use cases and how as leaders we can ensure both are going forward hand in
Anthony Yanni: hand? So I would define it just slightly differently. I think you’re right that it has to be an internal and external component, but I define it in two categories of work.
One is operational work, meaning how do you, how do you make actionable the patient insight? So for instance, many companies might go out and ask patients their opinions about certain diseases and certain treatments. But if you don’t connect that to action. We haven’t changed the way the next generation of solutions are being developed.
We’ve done part of the work, but not finished the work. Patient centricity is more than asking patients for their advice or their input. Patient centricity is asking for it and then utilizing it. So that we change the way we make decisions. So that’s the first piece. Operationally, how are we utilizing patient insights to change the way we develop medicines?
The second piece is the foundational piece. It’s the culture of the organization. The culture piece is what makes the act, the operational piece sustainable. So if you have, we have five teams that were four teams that work on the operational component inside of Estella’s and one team that focuses on the culture.
But if we didn’t have a cultural piece of the entire organization wasn’t saying every day that when I go to work, it’s for the patient. My job is to deliver solutions. you know, with patients for patients, the operational piece wouldn’t be sustainable. So what we do is we create a culture where everyone understands the focus of their work, the purpose of the day.
And that also helps with organizational recruitment and retention satisfaction at work. So there’s a whole benefit to the cultural piece. But if you can keep the cultural piece positive, the operational piece that you’ve created will be sustainable. Both of those are critical to having a patient centricity function that’s, that is impactful to patients.
Naji Gehchan: This, this is really great and I deeply believe in this, like, driven by purpose, obviously, for, for us to deliver for the patients we serve. Uh, are there any tips, example, as we go through it? Because both of us know when we’re leading large cross functional teams, and I’m assuming, but correct me if I’m wrong, the culture you’re talking about is really a cross functional culture.
the organization cross functionally, not only one, not only development, not only marketing, MetaFair, like I, are you thinking about it cross functionally? And if it’s the case, do you have any good examples where several times teams are so taken in the daily tasks and things we need to deliver that Patients become remote somehow, unfortunately.
So how can you remind people? How do you do it in a tactical way for your people across the organization to keep this always in mind? Yeah, so
Anthony Yanni: it’s, it’s absolutely true. It’s absolutely critical that it involves every geography, every role, every day. That’s the way a culture is built and sustained. So we do engage everyone from researchers to development people, commercial folks.
As well as finance and HR team members, everyone should understand that their role is critical to the work that we’re doing. The way, the way we did this is, you know, the how is creating cultural programs that are, that transition from passive to active. So many companies have Great. Um, you know, uh, pictures on their walls to talk about the culture they wish they had.
That narrative piece doesn’t last very long. It just becomes wall art after a while. If you don’t connect it to active ways, the team members can participate. and remind themselves and continue to learn that they are part of a culture that’s unique and we’re privileged to be part of. So, we have active programs inside of the company that everyone, everywhere can participate in, including a patient centricity university, which is a curriculum based learning opportunity for certification centricity, where you can participate in each level, grow, and ultimately in the final Um, in the final certification level, you can come back and teach the organization what you’ve done.
That was unique in delivering a patient centric approach to solve a problem. And then you become part of the teaching faculty of this university. So going from a passive to active culture is the key in any industry to having a sustainable, positive culture and impact.
Naji Gehchan: Certainly living it as you’re saying, living it with actions.
Passive to active, uh, when you’re, do you have any good, strong example? I’m sure you do on where this culture actually enabled what you said operationally can be done for patients. If there’s one you’re really proud about that you literally changed how we think about patients and one of our processes in the
Anthony Yanni: pharma industry.
Yeah, that’s a great question. And I I’m so proud of so many things. I can tell you that we have teams, the four teams that are active in the operational. part of patient centricity. We have a team that specializes working with research teams. We have a team that specializes in understanding the patient in the real world setting.
So they’re working with development and medical teams and commercial teams. We have a team that specializes in behavior, um, understanding the patient, um, in their interaction with the healthcare system, the healthcare providers, their caregiver. And we have a team that works with developing relationships with patients.
When we started, Each of these teams was meant to parallel the entire discovery to delivery system that exists in pharma. So, for instance, that team that works with the researchers, we have transitioned from starting to work with them to them requiring part, requiring their teams to, to engage our teams before they make decisions on the molecules.
They actually ask about. and regularly want to understand the exam room approach for the treatment of the disease they’re thinking about in the research lab. The commercial teams, when they’re talking about patients are talking about products. We don’t as a rule, patient centricity is brand agnostic. We don’t work with any brands.
We’re not salespeople. We bring the patient into the system so that all the teams can work more efficiently. But you know, I’ve been in rooms with commercial teams where they talk about Not how many sales they’re going to have in a region, but how many patients can be treated. How many patients are, you know, are, are waiting for this particular, um, solution.
I mean, that’s remarkable when you start to hear folks inside of an organization talk about patients first. Um, regardless of the role that they’re playing in. Many of these roles are highly technical, as you know, but to bring it back to the patient, it’s remarkable. And just as an aside, just as a quantitative measure, we, um, do pulse surveys periodically.
And the last pulse survey has been a while back now, um, just to level set the pulse survey nationally, internationally, globally, and in the U. S. The positivity rate of employees is In various industries, across industries is about 18 or 19%, meaning are you do you feel positive about the role you’re in? 18, 19%.
That was a Gallup poll in September of 2023. We did a pulse survey and 80 percent of the team members believe they were contributing to a patient solution. 80%. That’s a remarkable result. Of not just what we’re doing, but the belief, the true belief that they know they’re contributing in the work that they do.
And it’s important
Naji Gehchan: that it is remarkable. And I certainly relate to that and believe in this. Right. And as you’re saying, we, uh, we are all in this industry for for a noble purpose and being reminded day by day why we wake up and each one of us has this part. to at the end get it to patients. So I love how you’re framing it and where you’re going.
And ultimately, yeah, all that we do is. to make life better for, for those patients who need our treatment. So it’s, it’s really great work that you’re doing with, uh, with your teams. Thanks for sharing this. Any tech, uh, advances when you think about patient centricity that you’re, if you look at the future, the next decade, there’s a lot of discussions about not only, technology in life sciences, but also computational science, et cetera.
Is there any tech that you’re really excited about and you think that will transform and improve patient centricity?
Anthony Yanni: I think There are two specific areas that probably need to be addressed regularly. First is, I think the technology of virtual reality, augmented reality, bring opportunities for us to show internally or to share internally the patient experience more specifically.
We’ve done that with VR, uh, and patients who have impaired sight. I think that changes the game as far as how we understand the work that we’re doing. The people that are waiting for solutions and the importance of us doing it in the most efficient way possible. Um, and it changes the, the, the, the internal teams understanding of, of really, even if you believe wholly what we’re doing, it changes the depth of the understanding just to have that small little experience.
that patients might have. As small as it is, it helps for us to understand it. The second thing that always has to be addressed these days is, is um, artificial intelligence, AI. I think there’s this excitement about the opportunity and I do think it, it does present an exciting future for understanding the patient experience, but I am very cautious when it comes to that.
I think we have to be very careful. As it is deployed to understand what are the impacts of larger data sets. Large, large amounts of data does not necessarily mean better information. And sometimes larger data sets can actually confuse the issue and confirm things that you want, wish were true, and maybe not necessarily give us the truth of a larger population.
I think we need to accept the fact that this is something that’s going to happen. We need to understand. before we try to use these larger data sets in this artificial intelligence as to what is specifically the question we’re asking. How are we mining this information? How are we going to review this information to apply it appropriately?
And how do we most, most importantly protect patient privacy? at all costs because that’s the, that’s what they deserve with this most precious pieces of information. Um, the, the other thing with, um, AI is that it will never take the place of live interactions with patients. You need to be in the room or these days maybe on Zoom to talk to people to understand what it is.
that is important to them. As the conversation progresses, it can’t just be a static question that’s answered on a form in or in a data in a data lake that is that is captured. I want to see that patient. I want to understand their life. I want to understand their context. And I talk a lot about this In the book about context being incredibly important behavior being incredibly important.
We need to understand that each patient is different and while large amounts of data are going to be necessary because we can’t talk to a million patients talking to patients does add unique and valuable information beyond simply tables of information.
Naji Gehchan: So I want to move us now to a section where I’ll give you a word. It’s And I would love your first reaction to it. The first one is leadership.
Anthony Yanni: Leadership is a balance. Can I give more than a single word answer or can I, okay, good. I didn’t know if I was supposed to just give one word here. I think leadership is a re, a required balance between, uh, innovation and risk for us to progress in the future in a positive way for patients.
What about purpose? The reason for the day each of us in every industry need to have a purpose as leaders. We need to ensure we support that purpose too often in industries, not just health care, not just pharma. We expect the purpose, but don’t support it. And in fact, we’re letting down the actual team members who come on board expecting that their purpose.
will be able to be executed and fulfilled. So as leaders to the first part of the question, we need to support the purpose with a culture that is true to what we claim it to be.
Naji Gehchan: And I want to give a shout out to, uh, Jill Donahue, uh, who also shared this and have, uh, she has a book that launched.
previously on the power of purpose. Um, so I completely agree.
Anthony Yanni: Jill’s a terrific example of somebody who understands probably more than anyone, the power of purpose, uh, which is her book and the fact that purpose drives, um, efficiency, it drives satisfaction and it drives outcomes.
Naji Gehchan: The third one is a bandana and a blue bird.
Bandana and a
Anthony Yanni: bluebird is our symbols for patients, the patients that have taught me my lessons in developing the patient centricity function. They represent, they represent the very solemn and critical contribution patients make every day to our learning, to our evolution. And for me, It’s the commitment from, from me to honor their memories and their, their, um, willingness to share these private, private stories and, um, experiences with their health care providers and those in their network to hopefully change the way we deliver care for the better.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you for sharing this and your book will be. Uh, available very soon and we will, uh, we will share it on the podcast for, for several of us to learn more about the stories of those symbols and how we can improve patient centricity. The last word is spread love and organizations.
Anthony Yanni: That that’s that’s an easy one for me. I mean, everything we do should be with love as the common thread, right? We we are all going to be patients. We are all going to need the health care system We are all working every day for those people who are waiting for solutions and whether you’re in health care or any other industry Is there a better way to work than with love, than with that commitment to believe in what you’re doing, the greater good, and with the hope that at the end of every single day, we can go home and know that we did our very best.
And that the people who are waiting can rest assured they’re on our minds, they’re in our hearts, and that we’re doing what we can.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, Anthony, for healthcare leaders around the world?
Anthony Yanni: Yeah, I think, uh, my, my final word is one is a challenge. As I, as I point out in the book that this is the time. We can make a difference. We have a purpose. We are at a point now where we can disrupt the way things are and how we develop medicines and start to develop them with patients, for patients, with their benefit and their needs in mind.
We can change the way we deliver healthcare and transition away from treating patients and start to care again for individuals. And together, linking these systems, we can truly change the way. Medicine is developed and healthcare is delivered. Now is the time. We can do it. Let’s, let’s do it together.
Naji Gehchan: Now it’s the time.
Let’s do it together. I love this. Thank you so much, Anthony, for joining me today. It’s been a real pleasure to talk to you again and hear more about what all the work you’ve been doing. Thank you again.
Anthony Yanni: Thank you, Nigel.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to Spread Love in Organizations podcast. Subscribe and connect with us on spreadloveio.
com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement our world so desperately needs.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Anthony Yanni first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
This episode is in collaboration with MIT Sloan Healthcare and BioInnovations Conference, an event that brings the healthcare ecosystem together. On today’s episode, Naji hosted Dr. Collin Stultz, a distinguished professor at MIT and Harvard, and a practicing cardiologist. Collin shared his inspiring journey from his roots in Jamaica to his groundbreaking work in AI for healthcare. Collin emphasizes the potential of AI to enhance patient care by analyzing vast amounts of data, which can uncover crucial insights that healthcare providers might miss. He also highlights the development of digital twins for personalized medicine, allowing simulations of drug effects on patients. Additionally, they delve into the importance of addressing biases in medical data to ensure equitable healthcare for all. Collin's insights offer a glimpse into the future of medicine, where technology and data play pivotal roles in improving patient outcomes.
"Failure Makes You Better"
MEET OUR GUEST Collin Stultz Professor in Medical Engineering and Science, Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science, Co-Director of the Harvard-MIT Program in Health Sciences and Technology, member of the Research Laboratory of Electronics, and associate member of the Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory.
Collin Stultz is Professor in Medical Engineering and Science, Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science, Co-Director of the Harvard-MIT Program in Health Sciences and Technology, member of the Research Laboratory of Electronics, and associate member of the Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory. Collin is also a practicing cardiologist at the Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH).
Collin’s scientific contributions have spanned multiple fields including computational chemistry, biophysics, and machine learning for cardiovascular risk stratification. He is a member of the American Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology and the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology and he is a past recipient of a National Science Foundation CAREER Award and a Burroughs Wellcome Fund Career Award in the Biomedical Sciences.
Currently, research in his group is focused on the development of machine learning tools that can guide clinical decision making.
Samy Sidhom shared his journey from being a patient in Egypt to fulfilling his lifelong dream of becoming a physician. His personal experience with a medical condition inspired him to pursue medicine and cultivate empathy for others. Throughout his career, he has focused on leadership and adapting to challenges, especially during the COVID-19 pandemic.
Reflecting on his leadership journey, Samy emphasized the importance of finding balance, not only in professional roles but also in personal life. He believes that being a leader means being someone others can depend on, both at work and at home. Samy's leadership philosophy revolves around servant leadership, where service comes before authority. He encourages aspiring healthcare professionals to identify their core values and develop leadership skills in various aspects of their lives.
"Lead with your heart, transparently and honestly"
MEET OUR GUEST Samy Sidhom Associate Chair of Specialties and Chief of Pulmonary Medicine at Atrius Health.
Samy is a physician leader and innovator, currently serving as the Associate Chair of Specialties and Chief of Pulmonary Medicine at Atrius Health, part of Optum, which is one of the largest primary care and specialty practices in Massachusetts.
Samy also holds academic appointments as a Lecturer in Medicine at Harvard Medical School and Assistant Clinical Professor of Medicine at Tufts University School of Medicine. With a deep focus on innovative management of chronic conditions, population health, value-based care, telehealth, and healthcare ventures, Samy has been at the forefront of advancing medical practice and healthcare delivery. He mentors aspiring entrepreneurs through participation in the MIT Sandbox Innovation Fund and has mentored at the MIT Hacking Medicine events.
Prior to his tenure at Atrius, he played a pivotal role in developing pulmonary outpatient practices and services, and served as Chief of Pulmonary Medicine at Holy Family Hospitals in Massachusetts where he also cofounded the Center for Advanced Thoracic and Pulmonary Care. He has also contributed to public health policy and is a former member of the Board of Respiratory Care for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
This episode is in partnership with Boston Biotechnology Summit, a bridge to collaboration and innovative synergies between healthcare stakeholders. In this episode, Mark Namchuk, a seasoned drug discovery expert, shares his journey in the pharmaceutical industry and discusses his thoughts on leadership, innovation, health equity, and the future of medicine. Mark emphasizes the importance of servant leadership in fostering creativity within drug discovery teams. He highlights the need for collaboration between academia and industry to streamline the drug discovery process, with a focus on early translational work. Mark also discusses the role of AI in drug discovery and the challenges and opportunities it presents. Finally, he stresses the importance of spreading love within organizations and the need for healthcare leaders to focus on their mission and principles to attract and retain talented individuals.
"Biology will teach you great humility"
MEET OUR GUEST Mark Namchuk Executive Director Therapeutics Translation at Harvard Medical School.
Mark Namchuk is the Puja and Samir Kaul Professor of the Practice of Biomedical Innovation and Translation at Harvard Medical School. He Joined HMS is 2020 as the inaugural Executive Director of the school’s Therapeutics initiative and was appointed as the first Professor of the Practice at HMS in the Department of Biological Chemistry and Molecular Pharmacology in 2021. The therapeutics initiative was established to accelerate the progression of discoveries at HMS from breakthrough biological insight towards a medicine and includes a scientific core to support drug discovery efforts and an on-campus biotech incubator (the Blavatnik Harvard LifeLab Longwood). The initiative also aims to train the inventors of tomorrow’s medicines and includes the therapeutics graduate program for PhD students and a masters in therapeutic sciences that will be launched in 2025. He is also currently the lead academic PI for a $30 M collaboration between HMS and Abbvie focused on disease understanding and new therapies for COVID-19.
Namchuk joined HMS after a 24-year research and development career in biotech. In 2015, he joined Alkermes as senior vice president of research and nonclinical and pharmaceutical development. Previously, he held a number of research positions over a 17 year career at Vertex including senior vice president of Research. Namchuk has directed drug discovery efforts in numerous therapeutic areas, including infectious disease, oncology, neurodegenerative and psychiatric disorders, inflammatory and autoimmune disease and orphan diseases, including cystic fibrosis. To date these programs have led to six approved drugs and an additional molecule in active Phase 3 clinical development. Namchuk serves on the scientific advisory board of several biotechs and as well as academic drug discovery programs at the University of Southern California and the University of California, Davis.
Namchuk obtained a B.Sc. with honors in chemistry from the University of Alberta, a PhD in bio-organic chemistry the University of British Columbia and was an HFSP post-doctoral fellow at UCSF.
This episode is in partnership with Boston Biotechnology Summit, a bridge to collaboration and innovative synergies between healthcare stakeholders. In this conversation, we speak with Matthias Lambert, a scientist and patient advocate, who shares his remarkable journey from being a patient to becoming a scientist. Matthias was born with a rare neuromuscular disease. Despite being the only one in his family with this condition, he didn't know the genetic cause for 25 years. However, during his PhD, he discovered the gene responsible for his disease, TPM3.
Matthias now works at a lab in Boston, focusing on neuromuscular diseases. He emphasizes the importance of patient scientists in drug discovery, highlighting that their work directly impacts their lives and the lives of others with similar conditions. Matthias discusses the challenges of working on rare diseases, including funding and the scarcity of research talent in the field.
He explains the significance of innovation in gene therapy, particularly in finding effective delivery methods to target specific tissues. Matthias stresses the need for a more inclusive approach to research, with patients playing a crucial role in decision-making processes.
Lastly, Matthias urges healthcare leaders to listen to patients, emphasizing that patients often know more about their own diseases than anyone else. He encourages patients to speak up and pursue their ideas, serving as an inspiration and beacon of hope for others facing similar challenges.
"Our metric is to save lives"
MEET OUR GUEST Matthias Lambert Senior Scientist in the division of Genetics and Genomics at Boston Children's Hospital.
Matthias Lambert is a Senior Scientist in the division of Genetics and Genomics at Boston Children's Hospital, and Instructor in the department of Pediatrics at Harvard Medical School. Matthias identifies as a patient-scientist, navigating life with a rare congenital myopathy. His research focuses on studying the mechanisms that contribute to the pathogenesis of rare muscle diseases including his own genetic condition. He is actively engaged in pioneering efforts to advance cutting-edge therapies for these conditions. His work is supported by prestigious grants from the National Institutes of Health, the Muscular Dystrophy Association (MDA), and the AFM-Telethon. In 2024, Matthias plans to establish his own independent research group.
This episode is in collaboration with MIT Sloan Healthcare and BioInnovations Conference, an event that brings the healthcare ecosystem together. On today's episode, we had the privilege of speaking with Britt Wahlin, a passionate advocate for gender equity and reproductive justice. Britt shared her insights on the progress we've made in these areas, highlighting the development of more inclusive frameworks for discussing these crucial issues. She emphasized the importance of reproductive justice, a framework created by Black women that goes beyond just abortion rights to encompass broader issues like the right to have children, not to have children, and to raise children in safe communities. While acknowledging the progress made, Britt also discussed the setbacks we're facing in reproductive health and rights due to policies and politicians threatening bodily autonomy.
We delved into Britt's work with Free the Pill, a coalition-driven campaign advocating for over-the-counter access to birth control. She explained how, after two decades of advocacy, the FDA approved the first over-the-counter birth control pill last year. However, Britt emphasized that the work is far from over, as they now focus on ensuring the product is accessible and affordable to all who need it.
Britt also shared her leadership philosophy, emphasizing the importance of leading with values, collaboration, and principled partnerships. She discussed her approach to effective leadership, which prioritizes collaboration and empowerment. Finally, she offered valuable advice to healthcare leaders, encouraging them to prioritize innovation, listen to communities, and work towards expanding access to care. Britt's insights offer valuable lessons for anyone passionate about social impact and healthcare equity.
"Leading with values, collaboration, and principled partnerships is key to making impactful and sustainable change"
MEET OUR GUEST Britt Wahlin Vice President for Development and Public Affairs at Ibis Reproductive Health.
Britt Wahlin is the Vice President for Development and Public Affairs at Ibis Reproductive Health, a global nonprofit research organization working to advance sexual and reproductive autonomy, choices, and health. She leads fund development, communications, and policy and advocacy initiatives and serves on the senior management team.
Britt is proud to be part of the leadership of Free the Pill, a coalition-driven campaign operated by Ibis that aims to move birth control pills over the counter in the United States and ensure they are affordable, covered by insurance, and available to people of all ages without a prescription. Before Ibis, Britt created public engagement campaigns for social justice-themed films and worked in women’s and girls’ philanthropy.
Britt obtained her Bachelor of Arts in Modern Thought and Literature and Master of Arts in Humanities from Stanford University. She lives in Charlottesville, Virginia, with her husband and two daughters.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Patricia Boulogne a Certified Functional Medicine Practitioner, Coach, Chiropractor, Speaker, and Author. Pat has helped thousands over the last 35 years stop adapting their lifestyle to pain, and chronic problems by focusing on the whole person. The result is that her clients and patients, find out the WHY and the CAUSE of the problem, and identify the starting point: what, why, where and how to begin their health journey to live longer, better and healthier. Pat is the founder and principal of AskDrPat ~ HealthTeamNetwork, a company dedicated to skyrocketing your health, lifestyle, and mindset with strategies and programs that make sense, and help you age gracefully, think, move and feel better, and live longer and happier!
Pat, It’s a pleasure to see you again and have you with me today!
Patricia Boulogne: I’m really happy to be here. You know, I love to share knowledge and I like to help. I like to see people thrive.
Naji Gehchan: It’s great. It’s really a
Patricia Boulogne: great opportunity.
Naji Gehchan: People thrive, live longer, happier. I think all, everyone is eager to hear more about how to do that. But first I want to start with your personal story.
What’s in between the lines of your journey and becoming the doctor and business person you are now?
Patricia Boulogne: Well, you know, one of the things that happened is that when I was going to chiropractic school and I just finished chiropractic school, but I knew my father was not well before that he dropped out of a heart attack.
And that was really quite upsetting, you know, at the time because, you know, I always thought about like, what is it that I could have done, um, or what, you know, with all the resources and tools that I had access to, he didn’t take care of himself. He didn’t, um, you know, he’s. Occasionally, he smoked a pipe, um, and had a glass of scotch and, but he really didn’t take care of himself.
He didn’t eat well. And um, it came as a surprise to everybody, you know, because it was, as I said before, it was sudden, but it always made me sad because I kept on thinking like, oh, I could, maybe I could have done something. And that, from that experience, I decided that I was going to help other executives and entrepreneurs and business owners, you know, live their lives to the fullest and be as healthy as possible, um, moving forward, because it’s a lot, sometimes it’s a lot simpler than what we make it out to be, and it isn’t as complicated or feeling overwhelmed, because a lot of times people, when they hear the word medicine, they kind of shut off.
And they don’t want to know, they’re thinking like, Oh, I’m going to leave it to the doctor, you know, and I like to speak very simple language. I like to keep it simple. Um, go back to like, you know, know that the cart isn’t before the horse, the horse is before the cart when someone leaves with working with me, you know, and going back to basics because you have to know your foundational lines in those numbers.
They really count.
Naji Gehchan: So thanks for sharing this. And you’ve been helping, as you said, leaders be better, healthier, more fulfilled leaders, uh, for themselves and their teams by focusing on the whole person. Can you share more about that and what do you mean by whole person?
Patricia Boulogne: Well, you know, a lot of us, you know, we, we get so busy, you know, that we start sacrificing our relationships, our careers, and our life to move forward.
And we don’t have all the tools, but if you. know what to do. You can go into the game with more sustenance. Um, and what I mean by it, people used to ask me all the time, because I had a very busy practice on Cape Cod, and people used to ask me all the time, like, how do you do it? I see you here, you’re like going.
And I ate well, I had good thoughts, you know, and I exercised, I moved, I did some, I mean, You know, what I told people to do, I did myself, and what I realized by doing those simple things of, you know, you’re, you know, you’re mastering your mindset. Mastering your mindset is huge, no matter what industry that you’re in, but especially for your health, when you have that mastered and that you become a priority instead of putting everything else ahead of you, then you can even be, you know, you can have more consistency with being productive.
You know, you sleep better, think better, move better. You’re like physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, socially, and especially financially. You can make better decisions.
Naji Gehchan: So, I love this idea of mastering your mindset. Can we double click on that and tell us how to do it and what happens next?
Patricia Boulogne: Well, I always, you know, I think, you know, going from having something that’s a habit into a ritual is a key component and essential.
And so that, um, you know, the habit into the ritual, you have to be silent. What is that? So, I have a, um, You know, something that I give out when I’m, you know, doing webinars and things like that where I talk about like what are those five things that you have to do. And I would say when you first get up in the morning, bathe your body in water, not outside but inside also.
Every organ in your body will love you for it. Also take 20 minutes in the morning. Maybe you have to wake up a half hour earlier to do that, but have that, you know, like so that you have that downtime and you’re doing it as a meditation or a prayer. Whatever it is that you need to center yourself, pick nine things that you can focus on that day.
Three for your business, three for yourself, you know, and three for your spirit or your family. Um, and then, you know, write those down and do and make a, A nine before nine ritual. Um, and, you know, the last thing is, is like, you know, be kind to yourself, you know, take breaks. I just posted something today about, you know, taking a one minute break for breathing, you know, breath work is really essential.
And I’m thinking, wow, in just one minute, you can, you know, energize your body, you know, you can have a quick fix. And you can also fix that last two by the way. Um, and then you can also be more calm. And so if you’re more calm, then stress isn’t going to take over you. You command stress. You’re in the commanding seat of that.
So that mindset portion of that is, you know, having that positive mindset with a positive mental attitude and all these other wellness initiatives gives you the success that you need and gives you the stamina and also the energy to make it through even your longest day.
Naji Gehchan: I love those practical advices you’re giving us.
Uh, can you share now a little bit more about your book? I love the titles. I’ll let you talk about your book, the title, and what’s in it.
Patricia Boulogne: Yes, the book is called Why Are You Sick, Fat, and Tired? And The book is about discovering your health’s weakest and strongest links. The purpose of the book is to show and shed light on where to start your health journey.
It’s a workbook. It’s a guidebook. It’s an advocating tool. You can take this to any learned physician. The results from the questionnaire, then there’s, it’s the questions, there’s 11 chapters of questions, 12 11, meaning men, 11 for women, and in those questions, it’s like a deep dive survey, like a system survey for the body, so that, I have, I’ve had people say to me, as a matter of fact, you know, like, my doctor’s never asked me that, you know, but it really helps you identify where your weakest link is at.
Cause then you know where to focus your time, your energy and your money. And then you can reset your mindset, you know, and also your health at the same time and be able to move forward and keep moving forward and a consistent fashion.
Naji Gehchan: So is there any, you know, any magic formula, uh, I would say if you want to try to improve your.
Lifestyle and be healthier because this is the promise you bring to, uh, people you see. So I’d love to hear from you if you have any, uh, any magic formula for, for, for me and all the listeners here.
Patricia Boulogne: Well, my first advice and magic formula is to make sure you’re well hydrated and you need 50 percent of your body weight in ounces, you know, for that.
The other thing is, is that everyone’s so individualized and everything’s personalized. Okay. And on some level, what I do is very concierge, um, is that I look at each individual, you know, blueprint of persons, like, you know, where do you want to go? What do you got going on? Where do you want to go? And what are you willing to do?
You know, and if you’re willing to do something, there’s always something you can do. I have a, lot of, you know, tricks up my sleeve, so to speak. Um, and how to like, Oh, do this instead. Or, you know, I told somebody I was talking to last night in my last call just said, I’m having such a hard time sleeping.
And I said, take a little extra calcium before you go to sleep. Don’t take it in the morning, take it at night, you know, and take it a couple hours before you go to sleep, you know, and then Make sure you’re, you know, distance from blue light from the TV if you’re watching TV or your, you know, computer or telephone, you know, and then, you know, stop that and just have that peace of mind with that a good two hours beforehand, a minimum of 30 minutes.
You know, and then have water next to your bed so that you can keep the temperature in the room, you know, and those, those are like, little things that people don’t think about very much. Um, you know, or they live someplace where, you know, this morning I had garbage trucks going down the street at 530 in the morning and I thought it’s time to get up.
It’s time to get up and do my routine. Um, and you know, and like get thicker skin, like stop getting so upset about stuff that really in the big game plan of life doesn’t matter, you know, and so that I’m thinking, is this going to matter to me 5 years from now, you know, a year from now, then don’t worry about it.
And maybe for better sleep. Because there are so many people, sleep issues are an epidemic in this country. And so, as far as the sleep goes, if you can’t sleep, just ask yourself, what is it that’s really going on here? And if you can do something about it, get up and fix it. Do it. Get it over with. And then give yourself permission to go to sleep.
And if not, dictate or write it down because in less than eight hours, it’s still going to be there. It’s not going to go away and there’s nothing you really can do about it. So when you adopt that mindset that anything is possible and that this aspect of this can be, it can be put off till the next day, you already put it off anyway.
So, let’s just, you know, just like accept it, move on, keep moving forward, you know, and keep good thoughts. So, start the day with a, you know, good positive thought and if it’s, you start and you have, uh, it get, you know, waylaid or derailed, you know, you just gently, energetically push that thought away, cancel it and then you keep on moving on forward because you, it’s just like you’re.
The energy that you need, it will cost you 10 times more energy when you’re upset or stressed out than if you just stay calm and stay centered.
Naji Gehchan: Don’t sweat the small stuff. I don’t know if you’ve read this book, but I love it.
Patricia Boulogne: I do. You know, I actually met that guy in Boston once. time. Um, when I used to live downtown Boston, um, we’re talking, this guy goes, Oh, I’m going to go see him right now.
And this guy knew a friend of mine in the building that was in, knew him. And I said, I want to meet him. And so he goes, we can come with us, you know, come and have a drink. And then, you know, he goes, we got something else we got to do, but we’re going to meet for a drink first before we go to dinner. Like, all right.
I meant, I never say no. That’s one of my big things. Never say no to a great invite. Yeah. Ever.
Naji Gehchan: That’s great. Uh, so it’s really, uh, you’re giving really great tips for us to take care of ourselves. And I love how you frame that it’s, uh, because we hear a lot about making it a habit, but you’re pushing us to start thinking about making a habit.
a ritual. So can you give us a little bit more what you mean by that?
Patricia Boulogne: Well, let’s just take, you know, the, there’s a, a thing, a rule called the 2190 day rule. And the average person takes anywhere from 18 days to 265 or 54 days, about eight and a half months in order to make a habit into a ritual. So it’s like, it’s a non event.
So you’re just get up and you go do it. And so, If you look at the 20 90 day rule, or the 21 90 day rule, if you do it for 21 days, you know, then you can do it, whatever that is that you are successful with for 21 days, then you just do it for an additional 90 days. And so if you do it the additional 90 days, you’re at 111 days, which is more than halfway through.
Um, and so it’s just, you know, it’s just being consistent. Everything is, you know, it’s like consistent. I use the word consistent a lot, because when you’re consistent, you get better results. And also, if you have an accountability buddy, You know, somebody that’s just like, you know, like, well, I have a hard time walking more than a block.
Well, walk a block until you can walk farther, walk as fast as you can, as far as you can for as long as you can, just get out and move. You know, my second patient in clinic was a 92 year old woman, and she was a little scared. She was a good old Southern Belle girl from Atlanta, Georgia, because that’s where I went to college.
And I asked her when she came in, I’m thinking what’s a 92 year old woman coming into a chiropractor for and wanting to get advice about how to do it better. And I’m thinking she has so much that she can teach me. And so I asked her what she did for exercise. And she said she lived in a neighborhood that was turning so she would take her Dixie cup out and go water all her plants in the backyard.
And I said, well, how many plants do you have? I thought she was going to say, like, 20 or something like that. And she said, Oh, you have 150 and I’m going like, you know, but and what she did is she just made it into, you know, exercise and put the mindset that that was exercise for her, which helped her stay in better shape, you know, and keep on moving because her line was, Dr.
Payette with his beautiful Southern accent, if you don’t move, you’re going to die. And that is just so true.
Naji Gehchan: So thinking about now more leaders, do you see anything different for us managing teams and organizations and how to ensure a better health and lifestyle for our teams and also for us? Like any different advice you would give?
Patricia Boulogne: Well, you know, you’ve got to look at what, you know, when I look at somebody, what I do is I look at, what do you got to do in a day? You know, and it’s just like, what’s the most important thing you have to get done so you’re not doing emails the first thing in the morning, or else you’ll get sidetracked, you know, and all of a sudden it’ll be 2 o’clock and you haven’t done anything.
And so it’s, it’s taking a look at that, like the, the eating, you know, proper diet and nutrition is, you know, is so important, um, proper exercise and getting up and moving so you’re not sitting down so long, you know, there’s studies showing that sitting is not a really good idea. And then, you know, getting enough sleep or even taking a nap or doing the breath work that I talked about today in my post on LinkedIn.
It’s just a simple, simple, simple thing that you can do. And there’s a lot of simple things that you can do that you just don’t sometimes think about. And then for like leaders, you know, to have that harmony and that balance and being able to think better, you’ve got to really have a clean diet. And you have to really be a little bit ritualized, like how much sleep am I getting?
You know, and not sweating the small stuff as you well pointed it out and at summation of that. Um, you have, you know, you first have to identify where you’re at though and that’s a big problem. A lot of people think that like, Oh, I’m okay, I’m healthy. You know, we’ve all heard the story about the person leaving the doctor’s office and a couple of days later dropping dead of a heart attack and they were given a clean bill of health.
You know, it’s a lot of times people can be very thin, but have a lot of fat around their organs. It’s called VAT fat And, or visceral fat and, you know, and then looking at like, you know, like, what is it that’s like leaders need, like, you know, like, what is it that, you know, what’s an easy thing for you to do on a regular basis so that it’s, you know, that you can have, you can think better, you can feel better and move better.
You have those tools with you, you know, so you’re always driving a Ferrari as opposed to driving a jalopy and for a body. Putting that, um, you know, and because you can, you know, delegate, leaders are really good delegators. And, you know, if you know that you like, I need this, this, this, and this, you can delegate it out so that it gets done for you.
And then that way you’re not consuming extra time doing something that is somebody else can do for you in that aspect.
Naji Gehchan: So I’d love to give you now a word and get your reaction to it. The first one, the first one is leadership.
Patricia Boulogne: Well, leadership, you know, I think that, you know, when I, when I talk to leaders and talk about leadership, I, you know, think about my first words that come to my mind are parents.
Because parents are children’s first leaders. They mimic you, and by the age of five, they get you down to a science, and wrapped usually around your finger, their finger. And so, you know, I look at, like, leadership. I look at, you know, when somebody can be who they say they are, and take the appropriate action to implement, to go, going forward.
And when somebody does that, and keeps their word, especially for me, How I feel is that I can honor that, and I respect that, and I can follow that.
Naji Gehchan: The second one is mental health.
Patricia Boulogne: Well, do you know that May is Mental Health Month? And mental health, we, I think a lot of times we have a problem with it, because in the United States, for instance, we don’t, Um, we’re never taught how to eat and the gut brain, um, connection is huge and a lot of mental health like the anxiety, the depression, you know, the, the antsiness, a lot of the times that comes from the foods that we’re eating and the miscommunication from the food to the brain and we’re eating poor foods, we’re eating fast foods, we’re letting that, you know, um, create, change how we.
respond in relationships and we don’t sometimes don’t realize people who are hypoglycemic sometimes are really irritable and or somebody’s really sick. They’re really irritable and you don’t really know that, you know, so that’s what, um, you know, the mental health part of that is like, that’s and the 1st thing I.
talk about in mental health is you gotta hydrate, you gotta eat well, you know, you have to exercise, you gotta create movement. I had a patient who was very depressed and when I was on Cape Cod and um, her husband says the only time she moves is when she comes to my office. And um, I said, well, what motivates her?
She goes, she likes you. And I said, well, tell her to come in Monday through Friday, you know, because, you know, I’m going, if that’s what it takes for her, you know, maybe a little bit at a time that can be reversed, you know, and, and I go in, in how that one thing, sometimes that we have stuff that happens to us when we’re growing up, that we hear something the wrong way and we keep on sabotaging ourselves and keeps on hitting the wall and keep on hitting the ceiling and not being in a free flow fashion.
So we all know what. Being in our vibe is like. You know, when you’re on your game, you’re moving forward, you know, and it’s everything is that all the pieces of the puzzle are fine in the places that you want to have them in. And when they don’t, it can be overwhelming. And even where work would be normal, in those instances, work feels like you’re being overworked.
And it’s just, it’s just like a different perception, like how do you change that? And it changes with mindset, one thing at a time.
Naji Gehchan: The third one is, Einstein’s time.
Patricia Boulogne: I love Einstein’s time. You know, I was driving on 495 in Boston and I got pulled over by the police. Well, actually I pulled over. They pulled in behind me because I thought I was having a problem.
And I was listening to this book that talked about Einstein’s time. And I wanted to take notes, so, and I knew I had enough time that I could listen to that chapter again and take down keywords and, um, and possess it. And what Einstein’s time is, like, when you’re in your vibe, um, is that, you know, things just flow for you.
And, you know, you don’t have, like, you don’t worry. You don’t have that level of stress you’re able to, like, you know, uh, Be in one with your situation. The day that I was listening to that, I was covering a doctor’s office up in Lawrence, Massachusetts, and, um, the one I walked in, I was telling this girl the next, the day before that, and I said, you know, what happened to that?
You know, so and so and so and so, cause I worked in this office before. And, uh, she said, well, how many people do you want to see? And I said, fill me up. And so I walked into the office and it was the standing room only when I got there at 9 o’clock in the morning. I went, Oh my God, I’m never going to get out of here.
And I decided to take that thought, get rid of it immediately, cancel it, you know, not look at my watch. Because if I looked at my watch, I was going to go back into Newtonian time and just do it. And I finished, I was like 15 minutes after the hour, but I, you saw a significant amount of people in a four hour time segment, like around 55 or 60 people.
It’s, you know, and it just like, it just flowed. I didn’t, you know, think, I didn’t think about it, you know, and it was enough. Where families, it was more of a family practice. So you had the mother, father, you know, and the brothers and sisters all jammed in this one room that thinking, wow, and just do it, get over yourself, you know, and do your best job that you possibly could do.
And if you run late, you run late, you know, it’s not the end of the world. But that’s Einstein’s time when you’re in your vibe.
Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread love and organizations.
Patricia Boulogne: You know, if you, you know, there’s a, I recently heard this song called, um, I am woman and, um, and it talks about, you know, when you put out what you want, you know, to the universe, the universe provides for you.
And when you’re in your vibe or in Einstein’s time, that happens all the time, all the time. So if you put out love. And you share the love that you’re, that you have within you, because we all have, we’re all geniuses, you just have to learn how to express it, and that whatever you put out, you, you, it comes back to you.
And you know, that’s, you know, when I, when you say that, that’s exactly how I feel about no matter who I meet. Uh, and someone, uh, coined me, um, the other day and we decided that I should, uh, market myself as a, um, as a grace magnet. And uh, they said, cause you just have that knack, you know, you have, you know, something happens and you get, you get it taken care of and, um, and I’m really resourceful, too, and I’m not scared to talk to anybody.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, uh, Pat, for healthcare leaders around the world?
Patricia Boulogne: Say that, the beginning part of that again, please.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom? for healthcare leaders around the world?
Patricia Boulogne: Well, I think, you know, one of the things that when I was in chiropractic school and our schooling was very similar to, you know, Western, like traditional medicine doctors, except for we didn’t do the prescription part of it.
And, you know, I would look at people who are standing, you know, you know, treating people and I think you need to lead by example. And you need to, you know, so I think that healthcare practitioners should do exactly what they would tell anybody else to do, you know, and they need to be their own example and going forward because then you get people who are, you know, who can say yes to you, who respect you and who could trust you, you know, and if you’re going to have be a trusted authority, you better be your word.
And you better like, I want to see you in action. You know, when I see you in action, I’m going to, it’s like if it doesn’t, it doesn’t resonate to me, you’re the last doc, you know, you’re the last doctor or the last professional I’m going to see in that industry, I’ll go find somebody else. But I think it’s really important to be able to trust somebody and to be able to, you know, be able to ask questions and, you know, not talk, you know, when you go in to see them, not talk about their dog, whatever is going on with them, unless you have like, you live next door to them or, you know, and the such.
So I think that that’s important.
Naji Gehchan: I love it. It’s walking the dog as, as we say, you know, I’m being a physician, I definitely relate to what you said. And also you talked about leadership with your children. Uh, it’s, if you try not to walk the talk with your children, it’s even, you get immediately the feedback, right?
And it’s, well, you didn’t do this, and you’re telling me to do it. Why? So I think it’s, you know, amazing to these two, I love it.
Patricia Boulogne: Yeah. It’s just like, my girlfriend’s son was very incredibly intelligent, and, um, so he would ask me every once in a while when he was even, he was three years old, he could read.
Um, so he would ask me to read books to him and so I’d read and I didn’t feel like doing it. So I’d skip pages and he goes, Auntie Pat, you forgot the part about, remember, you know, go back a couple pages. You know, you forgot that. Did you make a mistake and turn too many pages at once? I said, sure did, Sam.
Never do that again. You know, he caught me every time. You know, but I think we, I think we need to spend time, you know, with, you know, children and they’re, you know, and developing their, you know, consciousness. I mean, this same kid when I was in, when I lived downtown Boston was sitting there and he was looking at his mother’s a doctor.
His father is, is a, a significant massage therapist in Boston and he was sitting there and he said, Oh my God, your spines. I had one of those spines that hung on a hook, you know, my off in my immediate office at home and he goes, Oh my God, that guy must be in so much pain. I said, why is that, Sam? He goes, look how crooked his sacrum is.
He was five years old. So, but he, he knew body parts. He, he was way ahead of the game.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much for being with me today and for this great chat.
Patricia Boulogne: I appreciate it. I really enjoyed, I really enjoyed being here. It was a lot of fun and it was informative.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this special episode in partnership with ESCP Business School and its specialized Masters in Pharma and Biotech Management. I am joined today by Jessica Leygues, General Secretary of Women’s Cancer Institute. Jessica is an engineer by training from AgroParisTech, and started her career at Alcimed consulting firm where she spent eight years developing new healthcare markets (biotech/medtech) for entrepreneurs, start-ups, SMEs and large corporations as well as for the public and semi-public innovation sector, including the French Ministry of Research, research institutes, competitiveness clusters and knowledge transfer centres. Strongly committed to optimization initiatives for healthcare systems, Jessica then joined Celgene, where she was responsible for a partnership hub aimed at developing the healthcare value model. In April 2020, the midst of COVID pandemic, Jessica became the CEO of Medicen Paris Region, Europe’s leading health cluster, where she redefined the strategic positioning of the group in order to launch concrete reindustrialization initiatives to accelerate growth in the French healthcare industry and boost national sovereignty in order to recover from the COVID-19 pandemic
Jessica, It’s great to have you with me today!
Jessica Leygues: Hi, thank you very much. I’m really honored to be with you today. Thanks.
Naji Gehchan: Can you first tell us more about your personal story, from engineering to redefining healthcare at a country level, what is behind your inspiring journey?
Jessica Leygues: Hmm. Um, when I chose my, my orientation when I was younger, what I wanted to do most, of course, like a lot of people now is have a true impact on the world.
So when I chose the life sciences path with this agro biotech engineering school, I truly believed what we would focus on would be sustainability and so on. But At that time, it was still really focused on productivity and the values were not the ones I was looking for. So at the end of this higher education, uh, background, I really didn’t know what to do to be the most, uh, useful as possible.
So I started. As a consultant, uh, in the biotech, uh, sector, and it was really interesting because I had the opportunity to work with, uh, entrepreneurs, uh, with, uh, institution leaders, uh, with, uh, healthcare authorities, with, uh, um, industrial companies. So it gave me a sense of where You could have impact and where to start when you want to, to truly, um, spread values, uh, from within organizations.
And it was really inspiring to see, uh, that in France, that, that there was a lot of, uh, experimentations. And, and, and, and people organizations that want to change the system. Uh, so I had the opportunity to test what it is in the public sector, in the private sector and healthcare, obviously with a really, really, uh, um, a comprehensive, uh, sector to, uh, to, to, to, uh, to change things, uh, as a patient perspective, as, um, uh, a whole system perspective, uh, in, uh, in terms of, uh, macroeconomy.
So yeah, I never got back to anything else.
Naji Gehchan: So it’s through this incredible diverse experience, right? You talked about consulting, you’ve done biotech, you’ve done pharma, you’ve done government, nonprofit now, uh, is there like a key leadership thread that you’ve been taking with you across all those different experiences?
Jessica Leygues: Yeah, I would say there are many, uh, key learnings that I got along the way and, and maybe to start what is really important for me, uh, is. Where you can have the most impact is not necessarily when there’s 300 people in the room. And this is what I learned, uh, going from a big, uh, group to, uh, 30 people team when I was leading, uh, the medicine Paris region by your cluster.
Uh, it’s. Yeah, what stroke me is that when you have one on one discussions or really really small teams, um, a way of working and thinking this is at least for me and this is maybe a way of of uh of thinking and working this is Easier maybe sometimes to have a power to change lives and to influence people uh to have the opportunity to really Work on, uh, profound and deep, uh, change in people’s life, way of thinking and way of working.
So I would say today, uh, and today, uh, it’s even stronger for me because we are beginning from the start a whole new project. This Women’s Cancer Institute is from scratch. It doesn’t exist yet. Uh, so I’m building a whole new team now, and this is a great opportunity. Opportunity to me to have the opportunity to really work on, uh, personal life and, and, um, uh, professional life balance, for instance, and, and, and truly get to know people to get the best of them.
And, uh, and to help them, uh, get bigger and bigger, uh, in a, in a federative project that this is really something important for me. I, I, I meet a lot of people that think. Managing more and more people is a, is an achievement is an objective, but that’s not my objective anymore. I would say smaller teams are sometimes a bigger way to, to move forward to have an impact.
Naji Gehchan: So I want to, I want to go there. I want to go on two things. First, if you can tell us, uh, what, what’s your, what you’re trying to achieve in the women’s cancer Institute, as you said, you’re just starting. So I would love to, uh, for our agents to learn more about it. And from there, tell us how you’re thinking about building your team.
What are you looking for while hiring people? How do you build your team for you to be able to achieve the purpose of, of this Institute?
Jessica Leygues: I would say it’s all about values, but maybe I shouldn’t say that too loud because in France, you know, it’s all about the curriculum vitae and your background and your, and your.
Um, you know, degrees and so on, but actually when I look at CVs, I don’t, I barely look at the, the, the, uh, higher education background. I look at what people do in their personal lives, their engagement and so on. And this gave me. A sense of what they are what they truly are. Um, So again, i’m not saying it’s what everyone should do or it’s it’s enough But that’s where I start and for me, it’s really important.
And now we are starting this new team and really I they just Uh arrived a few days ago So I will tell you in a while if it’s working But this is really all about values and and shared share an objective a common objective You And another thing really important, I think, is, uh, it’s quite obvious, uh, you, you’ll tell me, but fight for what you believe in, and, and I know sometimes it can be really, really harsh because, uh, there are so many struggles, so many big challenges we are facing now, and we are all feeling guilty because sometimes we are not able to, to go to 100 percent of what we would like to put in place, uh, if we, if we, Think about environment, for instance.
Uh, we are not all able to change 100 percent of our lifestyles. Uh, but I truly think small steps are important and, uh, a step by step approach is really, really, uh, impactful. Um, and this is a small water drops that feel oceans. So this is also some, something I’m trying to work on with the teams. I, I’m looking to, to work with is really it’s you.
Um, to, to get happy with small victories and to work on concrete, small projects. Another thing I learned is that when you have, um, a strategic work plan and you know where to go and you’re really frustrated because people can’t always follow you, uh, it’s my, one of my key learnings is that you really need to stop and to help people Get on board and to listen to them and to help them, um, Getting into it and and feeling that this is a common project and again to do so you have to work on really Concrete things really small projects We all have Really high expectations and ambitions that we want to go there at once uh And and this is and i’m saying this but this is still something where i’m working on because sometimes it’s still frustrating things Don’t go fast enough never but on a human perspective, this is so Intense and so rich to stop and to talk to people and to learn from them and to include everyone’s vision into your yours into your vision and uh Bye Actually, you can’t do anything if you don’t, if you don’t do that.
Even though you succeed, if you’re by yourself, nothing works. So step, small steps, inclusive way of thinking, participating way of, of decision. I think this is, uh, what I learned, uh, along, along this short wait.
Naji Gehchan: Well, these are incredible gems you’re bringing. You know, you talked about small steps, you talked about inclusiveness in the decision making, um, and really this idea that you said, like, fight for what you believe in.
So along those lines, I’d love to know if you also go through your COVID experience, right? Like you had to manage through tough times, you have to manage on reindustrializing a country, sovereignty, et cetera. But if we go on the leadership aspect of all this, sometimes I feel like we, people can be hang on the idea they have in mind and fighting.
This is why I wanted to take what you said, like fight for what you believe in. Am I assuming correctly that you’re thinking about a general belief, a general purpose that you want to achieve, fight for it? and really get those small steps done for you to get there. And how do you think about this while managing team with setbacks?
I imagine during COVID times you had a lot of setbacks from different parties and then sometimes beliefs will go down or we’re never going to achieve it. How do you deal with this on a daily basis with a supreme, like a very moving environment that was COVID for you?
Jessica Leygues: This is a really good question. And even more accurate that I got, um, to the, um, uh, medicine management in April 2020.
So at the beginning of the COVID crisis. So had, I had never seen the team I was about to, to manage. And as you said, in a really moving and challenging environment where needs and expectations were just crazy from day one. But even though external issues and challenges and business model, uh, um, questions and positioning in the ecosystem and relationships with, uh, institutions and our members and so on, we are crazy.
I. Spent a lot of time internally with the teams because this this This organization is non profit as you said uh, it’s an it’s it’s something you you join because you want to Help and you want to be useful and and the team I joined at that time was Lost because the business model, it’s still, even though it’s not nonprofit, you have to pay people and it’s a 30 people team.
So you have to find ways of sustaining a certain amount of revenue. Uh, everything was changing so fast. We were wondering if we could hold on a nonprofit, uh, model, or if you were becoming a startup. You know, and it was really deep as a, as a questioning for, for, for the team, for the, uh, the values and the, the, um, the objects, uh, itself of the organization.
And to me, it was really important to spend. more than half of my time with the team to understand how we could build something that that would be really, uh, differentiating and impactful on the outside. And this was at the time quite, um, new because all, all people that succeeded, that, uh, preceded me, uh, didn’t Choose this way of working.
They didn’t spend much time inside. So it was a it was new and we built Values we built what we wanted to do with this organization and I think this is one What what really explains what we were able to achieve over the the next years and during uh, the covid crisis during which we had to again to understand, uh, a few thousand of of uh, You Players Expectations and so on and find the best compromises and solutions to help the whole ecosystem to grow so again What helped me is listening to these guys.
They were very different people, of course coming from different areas and Younger and and and older and so on but I learned from them and the the idea I I built on what we should achieve was theirs actually was it was really a Co a co construction And and I think this is So that’s something, um, that drives me over overall, because if I sum up the objective of the project I’m leading now, the Women’s Cancer Institute, actually, we’re talking about basic research, translational and clinical research, uh, care, But it’s all about a holistic approach, how to better understand what really matters for patients.
Um, what is their lives, their situation, their psychosocial environment, um, and how we can help them as much as we can. But, On their definition, and I know in the health care system, it’s really difficult because, of course, everyone wants to do their best and think they know what’s best for people, but it’s not always what we think.
So it’s all about including patient feedback, um, to build really personalized answers to every individual. And this is why this project is so important to me. And this is why we called it the Women’s Cancer Institute. It’s not the Breast and Gynecological Cancer Institute. It’s all about people, in this case, women.
But this is really, again, a matter of connecting to people, listening to their needs and co building what we can achieve with them. not thinking we think what we know and what we think is better than theirs.
Naji Gehchan: I, I love it. And I’ve, I’m sure you will have a tremendous impact that is needed for patients and women specifically, uh, within this Institute.
It’s, um, it’s so important. And I totally relate to what you said, like several times. We think we know what other one versus actually listening. And hearing what people want and act on it. So I love that it’s the core and heart of what you will be doing. Jessica, I want to go now and give you a word, and I would love a reaction to it.
The first one is leadership.
Jessica Leygues: It’s funny because these days I’ve been thinking about how leadership is close to Being a parent and how to think about health care as I just mentioned and I think and I heard Um a u. s. Psychologist a few days ago. I’m sure you know her It’s becky kennedy and she said for her a parent and a leader Was someone able to connect to to himself herself and connect to other and it was a definition of Sturdiness and I really connect it to this definition.
I think this is really something that that defines me as well um, because again, I think our strength is is is this Synergy this this ability to learn from others to better understand how they work what they can bring to the world to A family, an organization, a society, uh, and it’s just the same thing with patients.
So I would say leadership I could of course I could mention exemplarity and blah blah blah But what I really want to focus on today is really this this Ability to connect to others But also to connect to yourself. And this brings us back to what I mentioned before, fight for what you believe in. You really have to, um, to be aligned with what you say, how you act, what you represent.
And I think a good leader is someone who managed to do that. And it’s not easy, of course. And not everyone has the chance to find, um, the right place to do that. It may be a lifetime, uh, journey.
Naji Gehchan: Yes. And you talked about this alignment, right? Like the heart, brain, and practically the hands, right? Like that will make it, that will make it work.
The second word is innovation.
Jessica Leygues: I could spend days on this word because, uh, definition is different from one context to another. I think I will repeat myself, but for me, how, how. Translate, uh, discoveries into progress. It, it’s what we look, uh, we, we are looking for when we talk about innovation, and it’s all about, again, including the users into the whole process of innovation.
There are people with really bright minds and good ideas and the best intentions in the world that. Develop solutions without including, uh, the potential users. And we see that a lot in healthcare and specifically in digital healthcare solutions. And it has been a really strong fight for me when I was leading, uh, the medicine bio cluster.
Because, yeah, it doesn’t work. When you don’t, when you don’t work with people for these same people. So I would say it’s all about co construction and the ability again to connect and to understand what are the true unmet needs. Sounds obvious, but we see every day that even in 2024, it’s really not easy.
Naji Gehchan: I fully agree. And it’s like less construction these days than building together. But you’re here. This is why we’re here, right? This is why we have leaders like you and, and several of us trying to make it work. The third one is women’s health.
Jessica Leygues: Again, a lot, a lot of things to say. Um, Maybe I would start with a few, not figures, but at least, um, pieces of information. What we notice is that the, um, the number of, of death by cancers decreases more slowly for women than for men.
What we notice as well is that, um, in when, uh, when a cancer arrives in a couple, it happens a lot that the couple doesn’t survive. And it’s six times higher when the woman has a cancer. Of course, I’m talking about, uh, it or couples. Um, so these are a few examples of what we wanted to look further into, uh, women’s cancers.
More specifically, if I go back to women’s health more broadly, there are cultural challenges from the design of, uh, clinical trials to the way we look at symptoms of a, of a disease, um, uh, the way we look at the pathology. The how you how you use treatments everything is based mainly on men tests, uh, we know much better how a man reacts to a stroke or or any Uh a high number of uh Not funny, uh, events.
So this is a lack of chance for women because they die more because we are not able to help them as fast as we do for men. Uh, so this is again, something we have to tackle. And I don’t know that the exact figures of the world, but in France, it’s really, really high. There are cultural reasons. There are, uh, factual reasons.
I mean, even from the preclinical tests, uh, on mouse models, Uh, it’s male models we use most of the time. So we would have to change a lot of things. Um, and, and we have a lot of examples also of things that are moving quite slowly, but still they are moving. If we talk about. Endometriosis, I don’t know how to say that in English.
Um, for years and years, we thought that that women were just complaining about usual stuff. And it’s quite recent that we realized maybe it wasn’t only that. Uh, so, so this is a really a way of looking at things. And again, now this topic is on the table. I can see everyone is looking into it and I’m sure things will, will be able to evolve.
more efficiently than other topics. When you think about the fact that a few decades ago we thought babies didn’t hurt.
Naji Gehchan: It’s
Jessica Leygues: just crazy when you think about that now. Okay. But at that time it wasn’t. So we have to change the way we, we think of the way we look at it. It’s really a cultural matter. And this is why this Women’s Cancer Institute is quite a, comprehensive project because it involves as well prevention, health literacy, the way we tackle fake news.
So it’s really a broad approach, not only about how to better understand, um, uh, the cancer development and the, uh, the spatial temporal evolution of tumors, for instance. It’s not only that, it’s really much, much, much broader because we have to change the way We think and the way we act, even though we don’t realize it at all.
Naji Gehchan: Yes. And I love how you’re framing it, right? It’s really a social change that you will be acting and that we all need to act on versus just gathering data or fixing, you know, a disease. It’s, it’s beyond that. It’s really the way we look and think about things. And, and it’s interesting not to open the very hot topic of AI these days, but obviously, as you said, like, Everything is based out of data for white male.
Of a certain age, right? I’ll stop there. I don’t know if you want to. Yes.
Great. The last. No, please go ahead.
Jessica Leygues: No, no, it’s just about to mention that, um, again, AI. There are a lot of hurdles to be able to. Make the most of it and in france particularly and we were talking about social issues and cultural issues That could be another Dedicated podcast though. I won’t be long on this matter.
But again understanding what what what people uh fear about it Would be really helpful to unlock a lot of things in France at least Because when you see that people are able to share their data on any Channel, uh social media and so on but as soon as you talk about health Nothing is possible. I think we We haven’t Tackled the issue the right the right way yet
Naji Gehchan: The fourth word is spread love and organizations.
Jessica Leygues: I think we quite covered the topic actually from different parts, but it’s all about being yourself and connect to others. And I’m not sure love is the word I would use to, to talk about all of this, but actually we talked about kindness, care, deep interest, true listening, relationship, trust, respect. So what, what is it if it’s not love?
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?
Jessica Leygues: What comes to me first is the, is the Pareto distribution. Another thing I had to struggle with and to get over my frustration about was the fact that you cannot bring everyone with you. Uh, and actually it’s not a problem if you think about the 20 percent of early adopters and people that will be able to follow and to try and to experiment, uh, and then build on success stories.
That’s actually a quite good way to go. And for healthcare, I would say it’s also the way to do because there are so many difficulties in the global healthcare systems in terms of time, in terms of sense, crisis for different healthcare professionals types. And I would say work, experiment on what’s, what’s, what you truly believe in on a, on a, on a team team.
Scale on a hospital scale and then being able to show how it works and how you can spread it I think this is always a um Yeah, something to try and and go by even though it’s still frustrating on a day to day basis for me So I’m saying that to myself actually
Naji Gehchan: Several times what we reach we are applying it and trying hard to apply it for ourselves It’s it’s Well, thank you so much again, Jessica, for being with me today and this incredible chat.
Jessica Leygues: Thank you for listening to me and I hope it was useful and I’ll be happy to hear the hundreds of people you, you interviewed and, uh, and, and please continue doing what you do because this is so important.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much. It’s a, it will be beneficial for several of us listening to it. More episodes in partnership with the ESCP Business School are available on spreadloveio.com or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Jessica Leygues first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this special episode in partnership with Boston Biotechnology Summit, a bridge to collaboration and innovative synergies between healthcare stakeholders. I have the pleasure to be joined today by Mark Namchuk. Mark joined Harvard Medical School in January 2020 as the Executive Director of Therapeutics Translation. In this role, he works with HMS scientists to identify and harness basic insights into clinical therapies, creating an infrastructure that advances the School’s scientific discoveries along a translational trajectory while training the next generation of therapeutics investigators. Mark joined HMS after a 24-year research and development career in the biotech industry, working in a number of areas that included drug discovery, translational science and pharmaceutical development. In 2015, he joined Alkermes as Senior Vice President of Research and Nonclinical and Pharmaceutical Development. Mark had previously held a number of senior research positions at Vertex Pharmaceuticals over 17 years, including Senior Vice President of North American Research and interim Global Head of Research.
Mark, it is great to an honor to have you with me today!
Naji Gehchan: Before we dig in your masterclass during the summit about Optimal Roadmap from a New Idea To a Helpful Medicine, I would love first to learn more about your story and how you became this influential leader and pioneer in biotech?
Mark Namchuk: Sure. Uh, I always, from a scientific standpoint, what I first fell in love with Was how chemistry and biology interacted and and more specifically how biology seems to use energy in the most creative ways to do biological processes or get things thing one to stick the thing to.
And after finishing my PhD in enzymology and doing a postdoc in immunology, uh, I got my first industry job, uh, and about two years into it, this was when I was at Cubist, uh, I was made a project lead for my first antibacterial discovery project and really fell in love with the process of drug discovery, um, really from a scientific perspective, in order to do it well, you need to understand Chemistry, biochemistry, biology, pharmacology, properties of molecules, medicine, all of the pieces and how they fit together.
And every job I took since then has always had a little bit of that piece still in it. Uh, so as I, uh, left Cubist and went to Vertex, uh, started out at the bench and then was there quite a while, uh, and ended up in a more senior position and really had the opportunity to see Vertex go from a company that had its first drug, uh, all the way through to where it ended up today.
And that journey, uh, all the way along really kept to those same principles of. A love of what applied science and drug discovery can do, how can we do that better, how the pieces fit together. Uh, and then similarly, when I went to Alkermes, uh, different therapeutic areas, first time I’d worked in CNS drug discovery, uh, really passionate about trying to improve, uh, healthcare in the area of serious mental illness and addiction, and still very passionate about that area.
But a different, um, stage in my career. I came in as a senior person, wasn’t sort of building my career all the way through. So an opportunity to take a lot of the lessons I’d learned earlier in my career and, uh, decide how I wanted to build the research culture there and a chance to, rather than grow along with a company, but maybe put a stamp on something in the way I’d like to build it.
Naji Gehchan: So I want to go there because in the first chat we had together, we talked a lot about leadership, the culture we build and how this impacts science and ultimately the patients we serve. So you you’ve done it, uh, growing in a company, starting a company, you’re seeing company kind of being built and then going to the next stage.
What is your main leadership learning as you’ve done it and how you think about leadership, building a biotech science company?
Mark Namchuk: Yeah, I think I would touch on something you said in your intro. I, I’m a big fan of this term servant leadership. I think the first thing I’ve always felt is very important is to remember that drug discovery in particularly in the earlier phases through phase two is a deeply creative enterprise.
And everything you should be doing should be fostering your ability to support that creativity. So what are important components of that? A, uh, the people who you have on the team. Do you bring in people that A, have, uh, it, especially in Boston, we have this wellspring of extraordinary scientific talent, but there are these other pieces that are very important too.
How well do they think across disciplines? How much do The people on the team love working with that individual. Um, B, I think we all are familiar, particularly those of us that have worked in industry, there’s timelines and there’s milestones and all these pieces that can be important. You can’t let them, you can’t let the process completely hijack the creative enterprise.
And as a leader, sometimes your job is to fight that a little bit. And then, uh, I would say, lastly, uh, one of the things I always tried to do, and, uh, hopefully did well at times, but held my leadership teams to, is a couple of basic principles. The first is, Your job as a leader in of an enterprise like this is to be the coolest person in the room.
When bad news comes, your job is to also be the person that takes all the stresses that the company might put around that bad news on yourself so that your team feels free to still work creatively and do the jobs that they were hired to do. And B, how approachable are you, uh, from a scientific perspective?
I think too often you have, uh, you have scientific leaders that, uh, feel like their job is to be the smartest person in the room. And I always felt that, uh, That my job was to, to, uh, with conscious intent, not be the smartest person in the room, surround yourself with people who are brilliant and know that your job is to conduct the symphony, not necessarily, you know, ultimately, as leaders, sometimes you make the final decision, but you’re really trying to give everyone in the room a chance to play their instrument well, contribute to the beautiful music and feel like their part is being valued and seen.
Naji Gehchan: I love this example and image, right, about being the conductor and making sure that everything at the end, the creation of all those individuals and people, we’re doing it as, uh, as a larger team. Uh, and as you build this one key component in drug discovery development, I’d argue in any company, uh, is how you build this so that people can stay creative.
And deliver, because as you said, you touched on the timelines, certainly we need to deliver on timelines. You’ve lived also companies. You said from the very first idea to them becoming commercial, how do you combine all this? I know that you talked about servant leadership, the notion of trust to be able to make it happen.
Any, any big learning you would say to us as leaders and operation operational leaders. to keep this happening?
Mark Namchuk: Yeah, uh, maybe two things. Uh, maybe starting at the team level first, uh, one of the, I was really influenced by the book Quiet. Which is a book on introversion and, uh, many scientists are quite introverted.
And I think we’ve all been on teams where you’ve got the classic, uh, type A personality that dominates the room, et cetera. I’m a relatively type A person. So I find myself having to censor myself at times, but what are you doing in that team environment when you’re running the team to ensure that that brilliant quiet voice is heard, right?
At the right time, and there’s simple things you can do that, for example, is, uh, for folks that are, uh, That need a bit more time to think deeply about a problem, get in contact with them two days before the meeting, cue up what the topic is going to be and not necessarily have this as a debate exercise where in 30 seconds, you have to articulate your point of view, building a culture around all those ideas being heard and valued structuring meetings.
So there’s places where you genuinely intervene and those quiet voices are heard. I’ve found to be the most productive way. To make sure that all the ideas that are on the table to foster creativity. Uh, I would say the second piece, maybe a level up from that is to understand that when you are the leader of a project and a goal has been set.
When you’re going to take the responsibility for that goal, but sort of let the team off the hook. They’re 1 of the things that I really believe in is, uh. That ultimately for a scientific enterprise, you have control over the quality of the experiment. If you’re doing really creative science, you have no control over the outcome.
So as, as you get into a more senior role in a company, your salary, your bonus. And your responsibility is to the corporation. You now have, if you run a larger group, many ways that you can be successful. I can have project one work. I can have project two work. I can have project three work. That’s not the same as if you’re only running one project or if you’re running a component of that project and giving the people in the team the opportunity to continue to do good work and understand that if, even if the project doesn’t turn out the way you hope, but they did a work that they’re going to get an A is one of the most important ways that you can ensure that people continue to take risks in the work that they do, as opposed to try the easiest things.
And then I would say lastly, and this is something I talked to the students at Harvard Medical School a lot is, um, I think of biotech in particular as an argument between science, medicine, and business. And it is at times an argument. I, I think any of us that have been in senior management have been in times where everyone is working in accord and in times where it’s a relatively vigorous debate.
Um, I think if you get into a senior role like that, Part of the art is knowing whose turn it is to win. So if you’re the head of research, do you know enough about clinical development to know that for this project, it is now the time for the clinical development group to win in the argument. And that means you maybe don’t do some things you’d like to do or for the company as a whole, it’s time for the financial argument to win.
And so I think from a leadership perspective, training yourself to be bilingual enough that you can have a good conversation with the head of clinical development or the CFO to come to a good conclusion is really important, but also knowing when it’s your turn to push. That it’s researchers turn, for example, more of my career to win for lack of a better way of putting it, finding that balance is very important.
And I think that getting those right is how you can balance the necessities of the company at times, but not necessarily have the corporate goals washed down to your entire team where they feel like suddenly they’re responsible for the stock price. I think that can be a very dangerous way to make people take on a pressure, which honestly, as a leader, that should be your.
Not necessarily theirs. They should be creatively going on to do great science on the next experiment.
Naji Gehchan: Those are incredible insights. Thanks for this, uh, Mark. There’s a lot, a lot to learn from, uh, from what you said. And if I take them now from the leadership aspect that you brought, uh, into what you will be sharing and what you shared, uh, during the summit, really the roadmap and the optimal, uh, roadmap from new idea to a helpful medicine.
So there is. A lot. And as you said, so this is why I love starting with the leadership aspect of things because we hear about all those innovation, but drug development, discovery, development, and bringing it to market is hard. We’re constantly humbled by all those discoveries that never gets there and few of them getting there.
So, I’m eager to hear a little bit about your thoughts on what is the optimal roadmap and how can we bring those ideas from ideas to patients, actually.
Mark Namchuk: Yeah. And I think, uh, uh, I’ll start by saying, uh, I, I have a phrase that I use a lot to build on what you just said is, is, uh, biology will treat you, teach you great humility.
And so understand the world that we’re in, no matter how well planned we’ll have. Uh, I think that in my current role at the medical school, uh, a mission I, I, I want to take on. And I think is a value is to understand the impediments. Between an initial insight at the bench. To getting into phase two, where we can really ask that question in a human being, is this a medicine that has benefit and is well tolerated enough to be used?
I think you can divide many of those impediments into a few buckets. One thing that we’ve tried to do, Uh, within the therapeutics initiative is to bring expertise that would more typically be seen in the pharmaceutical industry in drug discovery science and have that scientific expertise available at the highest level to our P.
I. S. within the H. M. S. community right from the beginning of their idea. So if you are thinking about translational work, Can we partner with you as translational scientists? You’re a brilliant P. I working at the cutting edge of biology in this particular area. You’re interested to see what might happen in terms of drug discovery with that idea.
Let’s make that easy to do. Let’s bring in scientists that you’re going to respect because that are scientific imprimatur. Let’s have a science first conversation. As opposed to this is what you’ll need to do to get an investment opportunity. Let’s really focus on the science first and see if those initial steps can be done more efficiently.
I think the adjacent component to that that I’m very interested in doing is rethinking academic industry collaboration to make the transition from that initial idea into more hardcore drug discovery more efficient. One way to do that Is to work on collaborative structures where scientists from a company, for example, and the academic scientists are working hand in hand very early in the process.
And when benefiting from both sets of expertise to try and get to the best world that one can to, um, be able to, um, move that idea more efficiently. So, and then at the philosophical and business level, I think that we need to put more emphasis on the, how well a partnership facilitates high quality work, moving from the initial idea to phase two as a primary goal.
Maybe even when that might make the financial terms a little different. As opposed to the financial terms as being the primary goal, which sometimes can happen in these negotiations, particularly depending on what the stages of an asset and I think there is a lot of work that can be done to really harness the benefit of scientific minds on both the corporate side.
And on the academic side where everyone is doing what they’re really good at. So I’ll give you, let me give you like one concrete example that really bugged me during the COVID pandemic, but I think is, is a great example where there are things that, uh, we’ve done in industry for decades that are not as well inculcated into academia yet.
So, uh, if you’ve ever worked in infectious disease and you’ve worked on an antiviral or an antibiotic. You know that in order to have a clinically effective agent, you need to essentially shut down all replication of the pathogen. So for antivirals, and this has been shown for SARS CoV 2, for hep C, for HIV, if you take the, uh, adjusted for free fraction, IC90 plus potency of that molecule, it’s a reasonable predictor of clinical outcome.
And yet, for numerous, I’ll go as far as saying thousands of publications that came out from the academic world during COVID, they would use the IC 50 as the main driver of both efficacy and therapeutic index. And because of that mismatch, a lot of the work we did in drug repurposing was never going to work.
There’s an example where if what we knew on the act on the industry side in terms of drug discovery was more broadly disseminated in the academic community, I think we could have done more productive academic research during COVID. And those, that’s just a simple example of the secrets we don’t share with each other very well, but that the science in the middle could be so productive.
Uh, and so I think that’s really what I’m, part of what I’m going to talk about at the conference, but also I think a bit more of a call to action to rethink the process. I think there’s a lot of benefit to everyone involved, but to build it around scholarship and scientific advancement.
Naji Gehchan: Great. Uh, you’re talking and focusing really on the collaboration that we can do between academic partnership with, uh, with industry. You’re mentioning also about a different way of thinking on investments, right? Like where to take the risk. You’re pushing towards, if I understand well, and this is what I would love to dig a little bit deeper, um, early on starting to think about the phase two trials and how you’re getting to clinic and probably take a higher risk.
If I understood well, in the beginning to be able to keep being creative and building the drug that will get to clinic faster? Am I, am I getting it the right way?
Mark Namchuk: I’ll
Naji Gehchan: clarify
Mark Namchuk: it a little bit. I think that, that what I’m really advocating is, uh, if you’ve got a biology idea, even at the very beginning of an academic, in an academic setting, there are certain Experiments one can do that are more translational, that if you have a capability within the university and people that live that world, ask those questions earlier.
So in a way it’s getting to some of those hard questions very early in the process. Academia will never do a translational work on the scale that industry does. It’s just cost prohibitive and skills prohibitive, but are those first framed in a way that if the answer is yes. All parties, including a partner, subsequently, would see value in that answer.
And I think it comes back to being informed by what questions will eventually be asked as you go to the clinic. So I, I, I know your background, Nadja, you and I are fellow travelers in some of this. I always like to think about a project in the early phases in my industry days from designing the proof of concept trial.
To economize on the experiments you were doing to decide when the drug was ready to go. It’s set your pharmacology strategy. It’s set your non clinical development strategy. It’s set whether you had to invest heavily in a biomarker and find a responder population versus you didn’t need to and I think that same sort of thinking going to be applied in maybe in a less comprehensive way in academia.
So, uh, I, I, I think it’s less about, uh, the economic de risking. It’s more about the value of trying to find scientific synergy earlier in answering those questions in a different order than we have traditionally.
Naji Gehchan: Marc, as you were, as we were talking also about those, um, efficiencies as you frame them in those partnerships. I couldn’t, but you know, like these days everyone talks about AI and some use cases, right? And you gave this example about COVID, IC50 versus IC90. How do you think about AI in these things? You know, and I was, as you were describing the COVID example, I’m like, yeah, well actually if data is proprietary and we’re not putting it out, probably we wouldn’t have even know, like AI wouldn’t have picked it, but I’d love to.
Got to get your thoughts about use case of AI in drug discovery and improving efficiencies in the system.
Mark Namchuk: Yeah, um, I think a lot of the best use cases for AI are probably taking place in companies right now because they’re a gonna have a much deeper bench of data. That they can go back to an AI, like any computational approach is going to be best informed by best information.
So I, I, I can say that, um, a lot of work is being done in small molecule generative AI. That’s quite impressive where you can do more from an initial crystal graphic structure. Do a good job of a comprehensive early chemistry campaign. And I think that work is just getting more and more productive. But I would go back to, uh, it’s best informed by having a real bonafide hit on a real bonafide structure.
A question I’m asked a lot of times is, uh, now that we have alpha fold. Do we need all of these other iterative methods to do structure biology and things and the feedback I hear from my corporate colleagues are doing this every day is alpha folds. Okay, but it is a relatively low resolution. Apo structure so a little at this in its current incarnation.
Not that informative from a design standpoint. Now, will it get better with time? Sure. But I think we still have to go back to having a better partnership between the advances in AI in the experiments we run. And I think that partnership, but in the academic setting, one of the things that I, um, I would like to see more of is, uh, Really advanced computational people working hand in glove with people that have deep expertise on the drug discovery side.
So the experiments are designed and then fed into the most advanced models. Let me give you another concrete example is there was a lot of work used done during covert around, uh, repurposing to identify Targets that could be useful targets for covert infection based on large screens of of either the existing pharmacopeia or pharmacologically active molecules.
And, uh, often the mechanistic conclusions that would say, oh, this particular receptor is important for covert replication. We’re flawed because the screens were run at very high concentrations of molecules that are highly molecularly promiscuous. So that there’s nothing wrong with the AI and the computational people are brilliant.
And, and so, but what was fed in, uh, one specific example I, that I was, uh, uh, was some work I was involved in was, uh, seeing that, that, uh, receptors that were more traditionally involved in. Uh, psychiatric medicine like serotonin receptor, et cetera, we’re coming up in rescreening with molecules that hit those receptors, but at very high concentrations of the molecule, if you look at the pharmacologic profile of those molecules at that concentration, there are 100 targets that could be interacting at that concentration.
So it’s a simple example, but I think it’s where we have to think about. Goes back to the symphony example, how do we work together in experimental design to marry the advances that we have in machine learning pertinent data to the question being asked. So, I, I would like to see that done better. I think that’s held back having this, like, aha moment and true drug discovery for AI.
The advances are extraordinary. Our ability to create data is extraordinary. Um, but I, I would like to see it better married, I guess, would be my point of view at this point.
Naji Gehchan: So, Mark, I’m gonna now, uh, give you a word. In this section, and I would love your first reaction to it, whatever it comes to mind. All right.
First one is leadership.
Mark Namchuk: Uh, my reaction to it is I don’t know that there is such a thing as leadership as a proper noun. I think for it to be real, it has to be a blend of, of you and your authenticity and how that melds to the work that you’re trying to lead.
Second one is innovation. I don’t use the word anymore.
Naji Gehchan: Tell us more.
Mark Namchuk: Yeah, I, I, I, uh, it gets used so often in so many different contexts. I don’t know what to do with it. And so, uh, I, I will admit this is more of a personal thing. I have a bit of an adverse reaction to the word now, because so many things get categorized as innovative, and the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
So, uh, I, I think I would, I guess if I was giving a one word answer, I would say overused. In the sense that, uh, I don’t know what it means.
Naji Gehchan: I love this reaction. If I take the word war that is also already used, innovation, breakthroughs, like all those words, the buzzwords that we have and really apply it to medicine and what we talked about, drug discovery and development and really outcome is bringing them to patients at the end and changing their lives.
Is there one that you’re most excited about for the next decade? Is there one technology? I want to say one innovation, but I’m afraid not to say the word innovation.
Mark Namchuk: Yeah, I would say no. I think as a, maybe a broader principle is, uh, if I look back to when I started 30 years ago, we largely had small molecules and the dawn of protein therapies as our only two, uh, methods.
for manipulating disease biology to get a good clinical outcome. That, those days are done. And so now there is a plethora of tools. They’re at varying levels of maturity. And I think for the first time we can now look at a disease and say, let’s pick the tool based on the nature of the disease, as opposed to say, we have to make a small molecule to treat this disease.
And I think the potential for that Is enormous. Uh, I think all new technologies have their impediments. So, for mRNA or RNA based therapeutics generally, uh, nucleotide based therapies generally, delivery is a big issue. But I think over time, that will get better and better and better. I don’t know where the speed of light for that will be, but I don’t bet against the progress.
And it just opens up an entirely different way of looking at a medicine. Like it, I’m not so sure we have to be concerned about drugability anymore. Because we have this whole argumentarium of ways that we can go after something at the expression level, where the only thing it has to stick to is the messenger RNA.
And that, that I’m very excited about that. That opens up enormous areas that we could get into that just were not available two decades ago.
Naji Gehchan: The third word is health equity.
Mark Namchuk: Yeah, I think that, uh, a responsibility all of us have to live into as best that we can, uh, probably as a discovery scientist, one of the places where I often feel like I can do the least good in the sense that, uh, the biology leads you to different areas that, uh, something looks like a good target.
What you’re going to take to the market is dictated by developability and commercial viability. So I think that an area where, uh, in my current work, I think a lot about it, and it comes back to the health equity principle, is there are areas of enormous Unmet need where, um, they’re just not great areas, uh, economically, but perhaps we can have more of an impact at the academic level.
A specific example of an area that is in enormous need of I’ll use the word innovation. Uh, but, uh, advancement, uh, is addiction therapy. Very difficult business. Generally speaking, uh, the, uh, the neurobiology is very complex. Yet, uh, if you take a look of places where addiction is most prevalent, it’s hard to not come to the conclusion that economic disparity in some ways is overlaying with our ability to get good care for these sorts of things.
And so I think there are, uh, disease areas that. Um, we should really put concerted efforts behind. I think they can disproportionately affect our most vulnerable and we can have, for example, have a cancer moonshot. And I think that’s a very worthy thing to do. But we have a pretty good system for bringing cancer therapies to patients.
It works quite well. I think the shame of it is our system for advancing medicines. Often fails worst in places where the economics, uh, and the people who would be best served just don’t have access to that medicine. I mean, uh, infectious disease is another great example where, uh, a lot of, uh, a viral infectious diseases are, are going to be most prevalent and most devastating in less prosperous countries.
And so how do we square that up again with my background being more as a discovery scientist? How do we get better discovery science aimed in those areas in a credible way that it actually eventually becomes a medicine? This is definitely something I’m thinking about in my academic career.
Naji Gehchan: Um, certainly in my work, as, as you know, I’m also constantly thinking about this and also my, where I come from, my upbringing is certainly something that I’m very attached to.
The last word is spread love and organizations.
Mark Namchuk: What was, I’m sorry, what was the first word? Spread
Naji Gehchan: love and organizations. And organizations.
Mark Namchuk: Uh, so, uh, boy, could we use a little more spreading of love these days. So I would just say bullion, let’s do more of it. I think that there, there’s a, um, there’s a, uh, a debate going on in our society now that I think would be well served To maybe embrace that philosophy that you brought up.
So I spent 24 years in the pharmaceutical industry, and I can think of no industry that is more roundly criticized yet. Uh, if 1 takes the economics out of it and takes a step back. I think a lot of the work that’s done in the medicines that are produced are unto themselves pretty virtuous and can help a lot of people.
So I think from an org, when we think about organizations, and we think about our critiques of organizations, and that can be government, that can be different companies, that can be different corporate entities. I think the organizations themselves need to think a little bit more about their sustainability.
Through the lens of how they benefit society and not just the pure money of it. And there’s, I, I’m actually kind of a, uh, a fan of the whole principle of conscious capitalism, where capitalism is very efficient, but it can have a heart. And when it does, it’s often a better business. I don’t think you have to separate those things.
And, um, I, I think that. One thing I’ve always believed and have been saying a lot lately, unfortunately, uh, just given how loud our arguments are these days is try and find the 10 percent of truth in any criticism. And then maybe take the moment to go back to the critic and thank them for that truth. And that’s just not our reaction these days.
And so I think that, um, we could all present company included do a lot better at trying to see the, the virtue in what someone’s bringing up as an idea or an advancement rather than only the critique. Maybe that’s a better way to find some mutual express on our way to trying to be a little bit more loving.
Naji Gehchan: Try to find the 10 percent of truth. I love it. And the criticism. Well, any final word of wisdom mark for healthcare leaders around the world?
Mark Namchuk: Sure. Uh, well, first of all, thank you for having me. This is fun. And I appreciate the opportunity. I think the, um, one thing I would say is, uh, what ultimately we do when we do it well, is a valuable and virtuous thing.
And I think when we’re focused on that. Uh, you know, if you go back to the old George Merck quote about being patient focused 1st, uh, I think we ultimately are both better, uh, more productive people. We give more back to society, but we create followership of principled people that are in things for the right reasons.
So, I think part of being a servant leader is making sure that your mission is appealing to the kinds of people that you want to have in your organization. So, I think, uh, all healthcare leaders. Have an obligation to explain to the folks that work for them the, uh, ethos of what they do and why what they do, uh, is, has, uh, value in its principles.
And I think that often is, uh, is going to get you a lot more buy in than the dollars and cents arguments, which we have to manage, but I think are often not as compelling.
Naji Gehchan: What a great way to finish our conversation. I could spend hours chatting with you. It was a real pleasure. Thank you again for joining me and being with me today, Mark.
Mark Namchuk: Thank you again for the invitation. It was a pleasure.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform. More episode summarizing Boston Biotech Summit can be found on our website or your preferred podcast app.
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Marc Namchuk first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this special episode in partnership with Boston Biotechnology Summit, a bridge to collaboration and innovative synergies between healthcare stakeholders. Matthias Lambert a Senior Scientist in the division of Genetics and Genomics at Boston Children’s Hospital, and Instructor in the department of Pediatrics at Harvard Medical School. Matthias identifies as a patient-scientist, navigating life with a rare congenital myopathy. His research focuses on studying the mechanisms that contribute to the pathogenesis of rare muscle diseases including his own genetic condition. He is actively engaged in pioneering efforts to advance cutting-edge therapies for these conditions. His work is supported by prestigious grants from the National Institutes of Health, the Muscular Dystrophy Association (MDA), and the AFM-Telethon. In 2024, Matthias plans to establish his own independent research group.
Matthias, it is great to have you with me today!
Matthias Lambert: Thank you. It’s a great pleasure to be here as well.
Naji Gehchan: Before we dig in drug discovery and development, your passion and your focus during the summit, I would love first to learn more about your story and how you became this incredible leader and pioneer in research.
Matthias Lambert: So I was born in France. So I’m from France. Um, I went to science school. pretty quickly. So, um, after graduating from high school, um, I went to university in Lille. So it’s in the north of France. Um, I did a bachelor, master and a PhD, uh, on science, uh, and said physiology. And I was studying the muscle, uh, skeletal muscle.
And then I went for a postdoc. I went to Boston in, uh, 2017. Uh, I joined the lab of, uh, Luke Anker. Who discover the gene for, uh, the dystrophy in the, in the eighties. Uh, and so I’m working on different neuromuscular disease such as muscular dystrophy or, uh, al Myopathy. But more about my story, I would say I was a, a patient before being a scientist because I was born with a, a Lin Myopathy, which is a very rare, uh, neuromuscular disease.
Um, and so for 25 25 years of my life, we didn’t, we didn’t know the genetic cause of this is because I was the only one in my family, um, with this disease, very rare symptoms. And so when I was, uh, doing my PhD in France, I also had my physician in the same lab. Uh, so basically my physician became my colleague at the same time.
And at some point, you know, I was, you know, when I was studying the skeletal muscle, I, I, I went through, different papers that describe my symptoms for rare conditions. So I told my physician, you know, we should look at this gene. And basically what we did is, uh, took a blood sample and three months later the results came back.
And basically say that the gene that we were looking at was, uh, the good one. Uh, so it’s, this gene is called TPM3. And, uh, right now, I have established my, also my own research direction in the lab here in Boston. After my PhD, also working right now. on this DPM3 gene. And this is basically the, the basis of my future lab.
So yeah, this is my, my story.
Naji Gehchan: Wow. Thanks for sharing, uh, Matthias. And it’s, uh, it’s great advancement from discovering the gene to now opening a lab. Hopefully you can, uh, target that. So we’re going to talk about this. Uh, and I’d love first to get your high level perspective on drug discovery from a patient scientist.
As you would describe yourself, um, how is it different? And how do you think about drug discovery?
Matthias Lambert: I mean, this is different because we are not only scientists. Uh, basically the discovery that we’re gonna, we’re gonna make, they’re gonna be for patients, but also for us. Um, and so that’s the perspective is, and the, I mean, the perspective is very different because you wake up every morning and you say, maybe the discovery, the discovery that I’m going to make today, it is going to change my life.
Uh, in, uh, like, uh, health, uh, health wise. So, this is very, very important. That’s, I would say, the first, the first thing. Uh, and then, the, the, the drug discovery, uh, area, I think, right now, maybe, a little bit overlooked because we have a lot of gene therapy right now in the market, you know, we have CRISPR and I think it’s also a good time to, to, to recenter also our focus on genetic discovery because we have maybe more than 10, 000 FDA approved drugs that, for example, were not tested in my disease.
And so basically we have maybe drugs on the shelves that have maybe an effect on rare disease. So as those compounds, we know the toxicity of those compounds. We know that they are safe. Uh, they are already being done some development of those drugs. And so it would be very easy to, uh, repurpose, uh, those drugs to, to another condition.
Naji Gehchan: So as you were talking about it, you, you spoke about CRISPR, you spoke about probably screening the drugs that already exist. We know the talks about them and are they effective? Can I ask what are you most excited about from a technology standpoint that you think will literally change and accelerate drug discovery, uh, of, of this specific CPM3 gene, uh, and myopathy, but also in great diseases?
Matthias Lambert: I think I’m very, so I think there is two sides. I’m very excited by the gene therapy, uh, area because I think CRISPR, it’s an amazing tool to basically change the mutation, correct the mutation, the mutation you want, you can correct it. And we know how to do it in a dish. But right now it’s very difficult to get this correction to the cell in the body to basically deliver this compound, this technology to the muscle.
And so this is one thing that is very difficult right now. And we still more, I would say more development, uh, for the, I would say for the skeletal muscle area, for the neuromuscular disease area. Um, so that’s one thing. And the other thing is about CRISPR is right now. When you correct one mutation, it’s like I would say, like, uh, a personalized treatment because for a same gene you can have different patients with different mutations.
So basically you will need different design in your CRISPR to, to, to make it work. Um, so that’s, that’s one thing. So the second side I would say about drug, uh, so I’m talking about small molecule, it’s you can maybe find a small molecule like a common pathway across different patients. So it will be less personalized treatment, but like I would say a more common treatment across a population of patients.
And I think I’m very excited by combining both. So, having, uh, small molecules that could help the, for example, the delivery of the CRISPR in the muscle, that could be one thing. Or, decrease the toxicity, also, of CRISPR, that could be also another thing. So, I think The next step for me, as I see, is to combine a small molecule with a gene therapy.
There will be, you know, when you think about, for example, HIV, you have, it’s usually a tree therapy. You have three compounds that do different things. And so gene therapy is going to be the same, you’re going to have a cocktail of different drugs, different technology that will help each other to reach the same goal, which is to correct the mutation and to, to, to restore the pathology.
Naji Gehchan: So as you think about this, what are for you the biggest challenges you’re facing for you to be able to get there?
Matthias Lambert: Uh, money, funding, first, uh, people, second, uh, for, for example, for me, I would say on this disease, there is maybe five or six lives in the world working on my, on my gene for this disease. So there are only a few people working on it.
So the development is very, is, uh, slow, very slow. Uh, and also on a patient perspective. It’s even more slower, I would say, because you also, you have two different timeframe, you know, like one year for a patient is very long, you know, when in one year you can have your, like the series, you know, you can have, uh, the, your data that, that can, you know, be worse, you know, after one year, but for a scientist, one year, it’s nothing, you know, because one year you can get funding and you can get some preliminary data.
So it’s, It’s also a different thing. So first, yeah, coming back to, to your question. Uh, yeah, the, the, the, the people, the funding. So, I mean, both are, you know, together, you know, uh, if you don’t have money, if you don’t have money, you cannot, cannot hire people working on this. So yeah, that’s, that’s the main issue right now.
Naji Gehchan: And then, um, in money, I imagine you’re talking about funding, like having the funds for you to be able to do the research, build, build the company, have the people who can help you out with this. And I, uh, I really loved your framing between time perspective. So I want to talk more about this because as you said, for science, probably a year is nothing, but from a patient’s perspective, a year is a lot and a lot can happen this year.
So as you’re both, On this, uh, on this, uh, specific disease, I’d love to hear how you balance this and how you would push us actually as healthcare leaders to think about rare diseases, because it’s certainly one of those aspects that is hard to crack. Uh, and I would love to get your thoughts, what we should do.
Matthias Lambert: I think. Like, patients should be involved in the research, uh, that would be one thing, you know, like, uh, can be, you know, sometimes I go to conferences where, and you have both patients and scientists together, you know, and I think it’s a great thing to, to hear from the patient, you know, what, what do you need, what is the most, Like what do you need right now, you know, and sometimes you can be surprised, you know what they say, you know, sometimes for a patient just for him to just to eat, to eat alone, you know, on his own, uh, before being able to work, you know, uh, in my disease, for example, you know, uh, I can work, but the, the main issue is the, the breathing, you know, my diaphragm is very, very, very weak.
And during the night, you know, I have a, I’m, um, uh, sleeping with a by uh, a bipep. And so it’s a it’s a life threatening threatening disease, you know? And so I would like to have a for example, the technology uh, therapy that will target the diaphragm, you know, let’s say. So that’s one thing, you know? So when you can refocus your science to a particular goal, you know, that could, that can also meet the goal of a patient, you know, that’s very important, I would say.
And then you have to work with Industry, uh, and of course, like agencies like the FDA to, to accelerate the path, uh, to have, you know, right now we’re talking about end of one treatments, uh, things like, like that. But again, NF1 treatment will treat one patient. And so, you also have to have this balance also in what you want to do, you know.
You have to think about, you know, a path that can, that can work for every patient. And this is, I think, very difficult right now.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks for sharing this, Matthias. As you think through the next steps, with, so now you know which gene, you have some ideas about targets, what you want to do, how are you thinking about clinical research and drug development in this space, and the next steps after this huge discovery that you’ve, you’ve done in the
Matthias Lambert: So, so after I, um, I knew, I knew the gene, so I went to Boston working on condition with sclerodystrophy, and at the same time, uh, I talked to my boss and said, okay, I would like also to work on my gene and, you know, on my disease.
And at that time, there were no, no model, uh, no animal model, no cell, uh, Cell models about, about this disease. So what I did is to make a mouse model. And the cool thing about it is this model basically recapitulates, uh, the, the symptoms and the phenotype that we see in patients. So that’s, that’s one thing.
Um, and so with this model, so you can do one thing is to better understand the disease, because right now, you know, as I say, it’s a very rare disease. So we don’t have a lot of. patients in the world, which means we don’t have a lot of samples to study. So it’s very difficult to study right now this disease.
And so when you have a model, you can spend more time to study the disease. You have more samples, you have more materials, you know, to work on it. That’s one thing. And then the second thing is to treat. Uh, so you, my idea is to, and this is what I’m doing right now, is to develop different strategies to, to, to rescue the phenotype in this model.
And once I will get, I would say, a solid, uh, data and good preliminary data, that’s my goal will be to, to meet with industry and say, can we do something, you know, can we develop something that can go to the patient?
Naji Gehchan: Uh, yeah. Great. Um, it’s really massive work and great job that you are doing. I’m glad you’re advancing the science.
And again, as Uh, you’re passionate about it and you’re doing moves and it’s important to follow the steps. And I know, uh, the timelines are longer than you would ever hope and we all would ever hope. But, um, I’m really glad to see, uh, where you’re going with it and wish you all the best for it. Uh, I would, I’m gonna pivot now, even though hard to pivot.
Uh, but I would love to give you one word and get your reaction to it. The first word is leadership.
Matthias Lambert: Uh, leadership, I would say maybe leadership in science. Um, leadership in, um, I would say something pretty new or so, like, uh, inclusion in science, I would say. Talking about inclusion and again, we are talking about the patients being included in the research, but also being having like people with disability, you know, included in science.
And I think it’s very important to have right now this People, you know, working in, in this field because for the past 10 years, this is, so it’s, um, there is, um, a paper from, uh, that that’s been published and seeing that basically scientists with a disability are the only minority that has decreased.
over time in science, and you have a very few, just very few, uh, scientists with disability, uh, funded by NIH in the U. S., and I think, again, it’s very important because, you know, you need to have a leadership from institutions, from agencies, uh, in this because when you have, uh, the patients. I went to science.
This patient had to face so many barriers, so many challenges. And so, I like to say that patients, it’s a very good, it’s a very good problem solving. Uh, because we have to solve so many problems. Problems in our life because, uh, because of our health condition, this is, I mean, just for me, you know, when I go somewhere with a wheelchair, you know, sometimes I have to take a different path because you can have a step.
And so, you have to solve a problem, you know, and the, you know, you have to solve, like I was saying, life, you know, like, uh, um, in, in, in the moment. And so I think you need, we need to have more people like that in science and we need a leadership. We need people from the top that say, okay, let’s do this. Uh, we need to create a path, we need to include more, you know, we need a task force about this.
Uh, I think it’s very, very important. Uh,
Naji Gehchan: that’s such a strong reminder, uh, Matthias, for all of us. The second one is innovation.
Matthias Lambert: Uh, innovation, uh, I would say now innovation is going pretty fast. I mean, every year you hear about a new technology, you know, a new, a new innovation. Uh,
I would say that in the field right now, the innovation, to be honest, like the last 10 years has been CRISPR. Again, that has been the big innovation that I would say can, at some point, cure, I mean, that’s a big word, but cure any, any disease. Um, but what we are missing right now in term of innovation is how to deliver this in the right tissue.
And I think tomorrow, uh, if you have a company that fine, you know, like the right, uh, the, the right animal, molecule technology to deliver this, that’s gonna be a game changer. That’s gonna be a game changer because right now we know for any mutation, we know how to correct a mutation in the dish. Uh, we know how to correct.
the mutation in the mouse because the mouse is pretty small. Um, you have also less, uh, uh, I mean, response in the mouse, but when you go to the patient, to the human, it’s totally different. And, uh, there were a lot of cases right now, like in the past five years using, you know, genetherapy and the CRISPR that has, you know, adverse events.
And death, uh, in patients. And I think right now innovation tomorrow is definitely the delivery. If you have this technology, the game, the game is done. Well, there is
Naji Gehchan: a lot of work ongoing. The third one is rare diseases.
Matthias Lambert: Uh, I would say what, what is a rare disease? You know, that’s a big, you know, big question because I am in the field, but every day I learn something new, but rare disease, um, and depending on the, on the country, you don’t have the same definition of a rare disease, depending on how many patients you have, you will say, Oh, if you, you have this threshold and the threshold of number of patients is different in the U S compared to Europe, for example.
And so now we’re also talking about ultra rare diseases. Like mine, you know, when you have a few patients, and when I say a few patients in the world, it’s maybe 100, maybe maximum a thousand. And so, when you talk about rare disease to a company, and you say, oh, there is 500 patients like me. In the world, you know, they’re going to look at you and say, okay, but I’m going to get my money back, you know, uh, which is, which is true.
Uh, but so we need to have an ecosystem for rare disease that right now doesn’t exist. Uh, a path that can work for both, you know, we need to unite, you know, academia and industry on this question and, you know, involve, you know, investors. Uh, the FDA, of course. But right now, that’s, I would say one thing that is missing for rare disease is the ecosystem.
Uh, how to, how to make a, a, a compound technology treatment that can be, that a family can afford. Because when you think about some of the gene therapy, it’s like millions of dollars. And so, uh, it’s, uh, It’s a lot of money, of course, but also in the other, on the other side, you know, you need for the, for the, for the company to invest the money, you know, they’re going to invest the money and they need at some point the money back, you know, to find a path for this.
So we need a new, we need to think out of the box for the rare disease. And again, I think having patients. in the, in the discussion is very important.
Naji Gehchan: The final one is spread love and organizations.
Matthias Lambert: I would say, um, that’s a difficult one, you know, uh, I would say, you know, like Humidity is one thing, uh, because again, I’m having the view of a patient, you know, every day you, you, you know where, why you are here, you know why you are in the lab. And so you ever saw this? empathy. Uh, and sometimes you have, you have too many empathy, you know, when you have a rare disease, you know, uh, that can, you know, destroy you.
Uh, and so, but I think empathy, it’s very good to, to spread a good vibe and love in an institution. Um, and I was Thinking, yeah, um, again, empathy is, you know, every time, you know, I see, you know, when I have a difficulty, you know, in institution, you know, especially talking about my, my disability, you know, disability, I say, you know, you should maybe for 30 minutes, you know, take my wheelchair and you’re going to see what I see.
Um, and then maybe it will open, you know, your eyes. On the world that you don’t know, and it’s okay to, to, you know, you don’t know about the world of disability, you know, but it also opened my eyes in the world that, that I don’t know. And so it can be in terms of culture, it can be in terms of, you know, uh, belief.
Um, it’s basically how I accept. different, you know, views, but trying to learn about those views will help you. And so, you know, again, talking about inclusion, you know, it’s good to have, you know, when you talk about disability, it’s not, it’s good to talk not only to people with a disability, but also to other people that don’t, don’t have a disability, you know, trying to open this world.
So, yeah. Open the word. I will say it’s, uh, and I think open your, your world to others. It’s a good way to, for them to understand you and to spread, uh, love. Yeah.
Naji Gehchan: Well, mats, open up your word. That’s such a beautiful charge. And ask, uh, for, for us, uh, any final word of wisdom. for healthcare leaders around the world.
Matthias Lambert: Um, I would say listen, listen to the patients. Um, definitely include patients because, as I say, we are good problem solvers. We know where to go because we don’t have time to make a detour. Because when you have a rare disease, usually a rare disease is no joke, it’s life threatening, and you, you have to go to the point, directly.
And so, sometimes, I mean for me, it worked, you know. That’s a quick example, uh, for 25 years, you know, my physicians, My medical team in France didn’t know about the gene. It took me a few months to read some papers and figure out, you know, the gene that caused my disease, you know, and that’s one example, you know, I believe, you know, that, you know, when you listen to the patient, when you include patients, when you include, include patient scientists, you know, you know, our metrics Or not, you know, publishing in nature, uh, or metrics, or, um.
to save lives. And so that’s totally different, you know, uh, our metrics also to, um, I don’t know if I’m going to be able to make it today, you know, because I’m going to be too tired to go to the lab. Or, you know, uh, you know, our programs are different when our viewer is, is, I mean, our view is different.
And so again, if you include this view, um, and it’s on, you know, how to make, you know, the right decision for this, you know, Type, you know, this question, you should, yeah, it’s, um, usually the patient know more about their own disease than any physician in the world. So that’s, that’s one thing, especially when you have a rare disease.
So, yeah, again, I’m repeating myself, but listen, listen, listen to the patients.
Naji Gehchan: Oh, my chest, uh, can’t thank you enough for this inspiring and incredible chat. Uh, our metric is to save lives. This is how you framed it, and this is the main focus and, uh, KPI we should look at. Uh, thank you again for all you’re doing.
Um, it’s, you’re advancing certainly science and you’re improving, uh, lives, if it’s not immediate, in the near future, I hope, for several people around the world. So thank you so much again for joining me today and being with me on this show.
Matthias Lambert: And thank you so much for, for this opportunity. And I hope that, you know, if there are, you know, any, any patients, you know, listening to this, um, don’t, don’t be afraid, you know, if you want to, if you have an idea, go for it, go for it.
Naji Gehchan: You’re such an inspiration and a ray of hope for so many. So thanks again for joining me.
Matthias Lambert: Thank you.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform. More episode summarizing Boston Biotech Summit can be found on our website or your preferred podcast app.
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Matthias Lambert first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Anthony Dowidowicz a physician executive who has served as a senior physician leader of health systems and health plans. Anthony is an emergency physician by background and is a graduate of the MIT Sloan school of management where he founded and coordinates the MIT Physician Leadership Group. As an engineer and lifelong technology enthusiast, Anthony’s professional interests include physician leadership, health system design, and emerging computing technologies.
Anthony, so good to have you with me today!
Anthony Dowidowicz: Oh, thank you, Naji. I’m excited to be here.
Naji Gehchan: Our very first chat delved immediately into AI, Quantum computing and its impact on medicine but before we go there, I’d love to know more about your personal story and journey. What brought you to medicine and now becoming the leader you are?
Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure. Well, it’s probably worth noting that when I was much younger, I became fascinated with quantum mechanics and physics. Um, I also went on to be an engineer before medical school, and I sort of put that aside because it seemed so impractical and so futuristic that it really had no application. Um, I then went to medical school.
I trained as an ER doctor. I went into health system leadership and then went to, um, work for health plans. And sure enough, I was, you know, really, uh, excited to learn that quantum computers are now being, uh, developed that’ll be very powerful in healthcare.
Naji Gehchan: So you’re, you’re an ER and engineer. Uh, you know, before we go into, uh, our topic today, uh, you obviously experienced different, uh, different roles.
from being in emergency, leading teams in emergency rooms, uh, also being in healthcare plans, as you said. So can you tell us more about this and really your learning as a leader? If what is the key learning you had as a leader?
Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure. Well, after my residency, I was in New York City where I practiced emergency medicine as an attending.
But, you know, shortly after that, uh, a few years later, I, I really wanted to You know, advanced my career. So I went into leadership and that culminated with serving as the chief medical officer of a regional health system. That was an enormous experience and led me to go to MIT to expand my skills and to be more effective at being a physician leader.
And, you know, at MIT, I was really inspired to look at technology and how it could be applied to health care. And that’s sort of at the same time when I learned about quantum computing.
Naji Gehchan: And is there something, because you said physician leader, and I have several of those discussions with physicians who lead teams, any specific thing you felt that’s something I was missing as a physician and I learned at MIT to become a better leader or something you were doing well that you amplified?
I’m intrigued what’s the thing you brought from MIT after your, your learnings there into leadership? I’m intrigued.
Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure. Well, physician leadership is crucially important to the ongoing effectiveness and sustainability of health care. And the reason I say that is because it really is up to physicians who have an enormous amount of public trust to advocate for the right ways that technology can be brought into the health care system.
Um, and I think this is a perfect example of ensuring that we implement this in the right way for the right reason. Um, I also think this has an enormous. Um, and I think it’s really important that we use this, uh, potential to really focus on issues which may not be traditionally profitable, like focusing on the social determinants of health care, designing therapies targeted to individuals, including the poor, expanding access by bringing down costs.
The list is endless. I know that other industries like finance and cryptography are also, you know, grasping at quantum computing. Um, and that’s terrific. But I think in health care, we really are poised to make a difference in people’s lives.
Naji Gehchan: I certainly echo what you said, and the role we have as leaders in healthcare to make sure that the technology, as you said, is used for the good is so important.
So let’s talk about the technology you’re passionate about, quantum computing, and specifically in healthcare. Can you first help us understand what does this mean?
Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure, well, a very high level explanation of it, and trust me, the mathematics gets very deep. But, uh, quantum computing uses the unique and sometimes bizarre characteristics of quantum mechanics.
I feel this is very difficult to grasp and opens up some interesting philosophic question. But that’s outside of the scope of our talk today. Um, classical computers are based on transistors. They’re basically got little switches that have two states, on or off. These are called bits. We traditionally call them like zeros and ones you may be familiar with.
Now computers process those signals and manipulate them to give you a definite answer using billions and billions of bits. Um, now we’re hitting the physical limit of how many of those we can put into a computer. Um, enter quantum computing. Uh, where you, you take advantage of two unique qualities of quantum physics, one, you, um, there, one, you can cause a bit to be indeterminate.
So rather than a zero or one, it could be any, any value you’d like. And also, you can entangle two bits, meaning that they correlate, uh, so those two simple features, and there are others, uh, but those two features add enormously to the, to the power of quantum computers.
Naji Gehchan: So now that we understand how this is physically done, what are the implications that you see in health care?
How, what, what types of problem do you think this technology can be applied to in health care?
Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure. Well, let me just start by saying that quantum computing is not and maybe never will replace classical computers. They work just fine for most of the things that touch our lives. However, quantum computers are very useful in solving enormously complex problems, usually involving optimization or things called branching.
Now in healthcare, there are no short of problem. There are no shortage of problems that can benefit from a powerful solution like that. Um, I’ll start with one fact that kind of blew me away in preparing for this. Um, I didn’t realize that one third of the world’s data is related to healthcare. That’s an enormous amount of time and energy spent to collect information, but it’s also so much information that we can’t possibly process it and gain insights from the treasure trove, um, using our, our classic computers.
Um, there, there are many other ways that, uh, quantum can really, you know, enter, uh, enter healthcare, um, and, uh, you know, although the full technology isn’t quite ready for prime time, Um, you know, quantum technologies have been used, um, mostly in something called spectroscopy, which leads to the technology of MRI.
Also during the pandemic, although it was, uh, it was an experiment, uh, it was found that quantum computers could more accurately predict the variance of COVID that were emerging and that could have led to more accurate, quicker and successful vaccine development.
Naji Gehchan: That’s, that’s a great example, uh, with, with practical.
actionable. I tried like developing the vaccines, predicting what’s next. Uh, do you have any other specific examples of relevant are in practical work where this technology has been used in healthcare?
Anthony Dowidowicz: Right? Well, there are a number of areas where it is poised to be applied. Um, I should start by saying that.
This technology is not quite ready for prime time, but it very soon will be in a matter of years. Uh, McKinsey reports that by the year 2030, there should be about 5, 000 quantum computers, you know, actively doing research in the United States. Um, now, how are they going to be used in healthcare? There are a number of ways.
Um, the first is an extension of medical imaging. Um, you know, as I said, it’s already been used in imaging, but with full blown quantum computing, we won’t just be able to see the body, we’ll be able to see the actual level of tissue, and perhaps even down to the molecule. Uh, three research won the Nobel Prize in, uh, 2023 for working on this.
They’re called quantum dots. This same technology has, uh, has potential to be used as a cure for Alzheimer’s by identifying and clearing the debris that accumulates in the brain, causing the disease. Other areas, uh, of useful include, uh, you know, supply chain optimization. During the pandemic, we learned just how fragile and unresilient our healthcare system was, you know, optimizing and understanding the logistics of the supply chain.
We’ll make sure that it’s sustainable and effective and getting what people need. Clinical decision support, uh, is also another big area. Uh, for those who don’t, may not know what that means, clinical decision support are, uh, when a computer sort of, you know, provides a physician with information to suggest possible therapies.
Now, I don’t really foresee that quantum computers are ever going to replace humans in medicine, uh, but it’s extremely promising to offer support for physicians, particularly those who treat complex illnesses like, you know, cancer or autoimmune disease. There’s also been some studies showing how effectively it can be at understanding cardiovascular risk.
One, uh, one of the areas where I think I’m competing can really elevate people’s lives is in work on social determinants. Um, as many of you may know, um, it’s thought that social determinants and social determinants, uh, account for up to 80 percent of chronic illness. So, similar to clinical decision support, we can use the information to understand how to provide resources optimally so that they really go to the people who need them the most.
Again, this is another form of a massive optimization problem. One of the most exciting areas that you’ll hear people talk about and which, you know, I’m excited about is drug development. Um, you know, now traditionally, you know, drug development has been based on compounds that are originally come from nature and manipulated in the create new drugs, basically through a long trial and error period.
Um, after they, before they advanced to a new drug. You know, a long period of clinical trials. Um, so the complexity of assembling hundreds of atoms into an effective cure is practically impossible using the speed of the computers we now have. But with quantum computing, you can draw out what tasks you would like the drug to accomplish and have the computer formulate a sequence of proteins or atoms that will design a drug to do just that thing.
Um, it will, you know, it will accelerate drug development and lightning speed. A related topic is genomic analysis. Now, let’s face it, you know, our genes play a role in every human ailment, uh, but the vast bits of genetic information we have, one genome, uh, contains about 3 billion genetic bits, uh, to tell you basically who you are.
Now, just mapping that data for one individual alone is an enormous task that we’re just slowly doing, but the real power comes in comparing multiple genomes against each other. to see where correlations lie to improve illness. That will become a very, very powerful way to treat illness. Um, this leads to perhaps my favorite area, which is called precision medicine.
Um, this is a very exciting area. It’s also called individualized medicine because it uses an individual specific genomic information To create drugs that are specific to that very person. Um, if you can imagine how important this will be in, in treating cancers and, uh, genetic problems that, you know, are unique to an individual.
Um, you know, when they become, when we gain the capability to do this effectively, I foresee, uh, healthcare to be delivering therapies based directly to you, for you. Um, also, you know, the issue of health equity, that is people getting the, the, the best health possible. I would see precision medicine as being the ultimate form of health equity.
Naji Gehchan: Well, this is really exciting. And thank you so much for giving this overview on the different aspects where, uh, this technology and quantum computing will be able to, uh, help us.
Um, I’d love to hear from you what you’re most excited about in the future, as you said, in 2020, 30, but before that, AI is like the topic these days, everyone’s talking about it and some like, well, anyway, I’m not gonna say what I’m thinking about it immediately. I’d love to hear from you, you know, as you’re talking about those quantum computers coming in.
The impact that they will have on us that probably we’re not grasping as much as we should and AI being like the hot topic and everyone talking about a generative AI, all the things that I will be doing. So how do you think about these two aspects and the future of AI? of medicine.
Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure. Well, I’ll start with explaining AI, which often isn’t as I as we’d like it to be.
I don’t really view it as intelligence. I see it more as the classic dynamic optimization problem, um, which as I said, quantum computers are excellent at doing. So I agree with you that everyone wants to say AI. And similarly, they want to talk about the word quantum, but very few people really understand how to get under the hood and connect the technology with the need.
Now, in the case of AI, the way I would look at it is that quantum computing is the really exciting breakthrough, which may make AI more AI, but quantum computing is really the breakthrough. Um, artificial intelligence is an ultimate consequence of, you know, the exploding IT revolution.
Naji Gehchan: Great. And when you think of these two and how they will evolve and making the bet as you’re making that actually the computer itself and quantum computing will maximize and amplify what AI brings.
What are you most excited about the future? Of those that in health care.
Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure. Well, take it together. Um, I, I think that all of this will Korea has the potential to create a better health care system that possesses far more health equity, which is far more resilient and which can bring down the cost of care and by and remove financial barriers to getting care, which is shamefully one of the biggest problems in the U.
S. Right now, as I see it, Anthony,
Naji Gehchan: I want to now give you a word. And I would love your reaction to it. First thing that comes to mind. My first word is leadership.
Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure. Well, when I think of leadership, I think of, I don’t necessarily, I don’t always think of people reporting to me. I think there are great ways to be leaders, uh, a leader without really, without having, can we do that one again?
Naji Gehchan: So the first word is leadership.
Anthony Dowidowicz: When I think of leadership, I think of the ability to influence. I don’t think so much of power. In the case of physician leadership, I think those skills are particularly important as large corporations become increasingly prevalent in their influence on healthcare. I think it’s very important for physician leaders to push back against that and ensure that technologic advance is applied the right way.
Naji Gehchan: Health equity.
Anthony Dowidowicz: Well, health equity is, uh, is a simple concept to understand, but it’s a little bit challenging to explain. People are tempted to use the word health equality, but that’s a bit, uh, slightly misleading because it would imply that we all have equal health. Health equity is a bit different though.
It’s the notion that an individual can achieve the best health possible for them. For example, if someone’s paralyzed but from the waist down, they may not have health equality, but hopefully we have a system that accommodates them and let them live their best life.
Naji Gehchan: So I think I want to double click on this.
Um, I totally agree that sometimes we misunderstand equality versus equity in health. And you said the, one of the breakthrough that, uh, quantum computing will be bringing is improving this through personalized medicine, uh, precision medicine. But I can’t but think about the costs related to those and how would it be supported when we know unfortunately it’s an issue in the U.
S.? And across the globe, if we want to think health equity globally, so I’m intrigued as you’re thinking about those technologies. How are you thinking about actually getting to patients hands and helping them take out those financial barrier that they might have?
Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure. Well, I view health equity as closely related to social determinants.
And I think of the social determinants as very related to drug development. And by that, I mean, searching for patterns of illness. based on what non medical resources an individual may have. Things, for example, like education, health literacy, even things like air conditioning for those with chronic illness, nutritional support, transportation.
All of these things are really outside the realm of medicine, but as I said, they account for 80 percent of illness in some way.
Naji Gehchan: The third word is innovation.
Anthony Dowidowicz: Innovation may also be one of the most overused words. Um, I, I don’t like to use the word innovation so much as ingenuity. I think innovation is something that all of us make every our everyday lives to solve problems. Ingenuity, on the other hand, is a bit more personal and requires, you know, you know, sharp insight and real thinking to come up with solutions to answer the challenges.
Naji Gehchan: I love it. The last one is spread love and organizations.
Anthony Dowidowicz: Uh, yeah, at first I thought that the title of your podcast was a little bit, uh, you know, unexpected. However, you know, in thinking about and preparing for this, I’ve really come to understand how the healthcare system by its nature exists to facilitate spreading love and creating a better world.
Naji Gehchan: It certainly does. Any final word of wisdom, Anthony, for healthcare leaders around the world? I’m sorry, say again? Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world? Can I find a word? No, um, let me just make sure this.
Anthony Dowidowicz: Sorry.
Naji Gehchan: No, no worries. I’m just, any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders?
Anthony Dowidowicz: Sure. I would really urge them to look at the big picture and recognize how important leadership is in healthcare. There are times when you face very difficult decisions between doing what’s expedient and profitable versus doing what is right on the long term. What I urge healthcare leaders, particularly physicians who care for patients, to do is to understand that You know, health care doesn’t follow quarterly reports or balance sheets.
It has its own nature and its own very complex basis. So I would really urge leaders to advocate for their patients and not try to make profit, uh, immediately or, or view health care in that way.
You know, the corporate, I’m sorry. No, go ahead. I was going to say that the corporate practice of medicine is, you know, properly, largely illegal. However, the influence of large corporations does have a considerable effect on the way patients are treated. And that’s not always for the better.
Naji Gehchan: Most certainly.
And keeping in mind the greater good and making sure that we’re striving towards Uh, the purpose, as you said, of healthcare organizations all across, which is making sure we’re making life better for patients, uh, across all the world. It’s super important.
Anthony Dowidowicz: Another piece of advice I would give healthcare leaders would be to start thinking about the problems that they wish they could have solved in healthcare, because I would bet in the majority quantum computing probably has a way to provide the answer.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much, Anthony, for this great discussion and enlightening thoughts around a great technology that will be coming in very soon, as you said, and we will be seeing it in practice. So thank you for joining me and helping us understand better this.
Anthony Dowidowicz: Well, thanks for having me, Naji. And thank you also for having these podcasts.
I think it’s a great topic done in a great way. And it’s really nice to be and refreshing to see someone be focusing on virtuous leadership. So thanks.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Anthony Dowidowicz first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Samy Sidhom. Samy is a physician leader and innovator, currently serving as the Associate Chair of Specialties and Chief of Pulmonary Medicine at Atrius Health, part of Optum, which is one of the largest primary care and specialty practices in Massachusetts. Samy also holds academic appointments as a Lecturer in Medicine at Harvard Medical School and Assistant Clinical Professor of Medicine at Tufts University School of Medicine. With a deep focus on innovative management of chronic conditions, population health, value-based care, telehealth, and healthcare ventures, Samy has been at the forefront of advancing medical practice and healthcare delivery. He mentors aspiring entrepreneurs through participation in the MIT Sandbox Innovation Fund and has mentored at the MIT Hacking Medicine events. Prior to his tenure at Atrius, he played a pivotal role in developing pulmonary outpatient practices and services, and served as Chief of Pulmonary Medicine at Holy Family Hospitals in Massachusetts where he also cofounded the Center for Advanced Thoracic and Pulmonary Care. He has also contributed to public health policy and is a former member of the Board of Respiratory Care for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
Samy, so good to have you with me today!
Samy Sidhom: Thank you so much, Naji, and thank you for inviting me on this wonderful podcast.
Naji Gehchan: Our very first chat delved immediately into AI and Medecine but before we go there, I’d love to know more about your personal story and journey. What brought you to medicine and now becoming the leader you are?
Samy Sidhom: Thank you. Um, that’s a long, long story, um, but I will try to be as brief as possible. Um, this is, um, it sounds more cliche, but it’s been a lifelong dream to be a physician. And, um, I was born and raised in Egypt. Uh, I grew up in Egypt until I was 14.
And very early on, I would say maybe as early as eight years old, um, I gravitated to, uh, medicine, uh, probably because of my own personal hardship with a medical condition. Um, And I was a patient for a very long period of time during my childhood, uh, and I saw the difference a good clinician, physician can make in the life of a person and a family.
And it inspired me to care for others and to have some type of or degree of empathy that I share with people who I think we are all invariably become patients at one point or another. Uh, and it connects me to our humanity, uh, on a deeper level. And I felt that medicine really is my calling and, and something that did fit my aspiration and my personality.
Um, I kept my eye on that goal since, ever since then, and, um, everything I did was towards leading, uh, to a career in that, in that field.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks, Sammy, for sharing this. So really, as you said, we all can be patients. We all care for patients. Your story is so powerful from being a patient, becoming a healthcare provider and caring for patients on a daily basis. I would love to hear, as you’ve been also passionate about leadership, leading teams, treating them daily, uh, practically in, um, uh, today, uh, and being at the forefront of the pandemic.
I think you’re in one of those specialties that dealt a lot with, uh, with COVID 19 where over the pandemic somehow, but still, I’m sure you’re dealing with peaks of COVID these days. What has been your biggest leadership learning through those times and through those years of experience as you grew as a leader?
Samy Sidhom: I think the, this is a great question. And, and I think it’s not just limited to the pandemic. It’s really is a journey of a, of a clinician and physician is it’s a journey of. Adaptation and pivoting, um, and rolling with the punches and anticipating challenges and rising up to challenges that you could not anticipate and having that kind of skill set and mindset of eventually things will work out.
Eventually things will be overcome event. Eventually things will be managed. So long as that there is a kind of a growth mindset that we’re able to pull together from resources from learning experiences. and from knowledge and from science to be able to adapt to a new challenge and a new environment.
Um, for me, getting to where I wanted to, to be has been a challenge. I think anyone who has gone through medical training and, um, climbing up in terms of leadership and healthcare field, this is just nothing but a journey of challenges and, uh, obstacles. Um, whether it’s through, um, admissions and whether it’s through, uh, completing training, whether it’s through, um, internships and, and, and, and residency and fellowships and research and, uh, grants and publications and applications that get through and things that get turned down and things that, um, work out and changes that happen all the time.
Um, I think this really, um, allowed us and allowed me. To be able to deal with the challenges of COVID 19, despite the immense pressure and the immense, um, problems that we faced during those years, especially early on, um, being able to pivot, for example, into, um, our practices and change, uh, make changes necessary in the workforce.
Um, to go from, um, almost no virtual, uh, uh, medicine, uh, medical practice to a full telemedicine, uh, platform to dealing with the challenges of patients with long haul COVID. And 1 of the things that may have mentioned to you in our conversations before, you know, we had, um, established a multidisciplinary long call COVID clinic atrius.
Health where I work now, and that was dealt with a lot of the very complex and complicated long haul covid patients. And we ran that practice for quite some time until. Demand had weighed. Um, but this kind of, um, um, journey and setbacks and overcoming challenges is not going to just stop at COVID. It will be for the next, uh, pandemic.
And unfortunately, as history tells us, there will be more. Um, but I think us as medical professionals, we are very well equipped with that mindset to be able to adapt and pivot. And this is something that I really feel that Um, is very unique and valuable, um, for leaders who with, uh, medical training and healthcare training, um, we, we can, um, really go through some significant challenges and obstacles, but we are very resilient.
Naji Gehchan: And Sammy, I loved how you framed it on leadership, rising up to challenges you didn’t even anticipate. And I think you’re talking to that. So if I want to go more specifically about you, your journey, you came from Egypt, as you said. You had several challenges, you said, as you were getting into med school, growing in med school, and now leading a large organization and being an associate chair.
What is the biggest challenge you felt as a person going through this and any advice you would, you would give a potential med student or someone who’s looking to become a physician like you?
Samy Sidhom: Thank you. And I, um, I, I like that question. Um, I think it can be answered in many ways, and maybe I would have answered it differently in earlier years than in my latter years now in my career.
Uh, my answer now would be finding a balance. Um, finding a balance where you can
not just be a leader in the office or in the practice or for your coworkers, but also to be a leader among your peers and being. A leader in your home environment, and I’m not talking in terms of leader being a tyrant or being a dictator, uh, but just being that best person that the people around you want to look up to, look for, for guidance, depend on, rely on, collaborate with, share with.
Um, and be vulnerable with, um, and that spans not just the work environment, just having that balance at home with family, with children, with a spouse, um, with friends. With community. Um, not just not just the office, and I think finding that balance as an aspiring physician or an aspiring, uh, health care professional is very is very difficult.
Because you get pulled in different prior in different directions, you have to reprioritize things frequently. You have to always land on what your core values are, and what you feel is important for you that cannot be negotiated. For example, for me. My family is a non negotiable, they will always be priority and I always have to look at them and look at, at their needs and their, and, and their companionship and their support.
Because just as much as they rely on me, I rely on them. And they will always be there. There will always be different jobs. There will always be different careers. There will always be different schools and training and experiences. But the family is what holds, um, my core together. And that’s what I challenge any student, any trainee, any person going through the process.
is to try to identify the score value and to make sure that that stays sacred and protected and to be able to Develop those leadership skills in different aspects, not just professionally.
Naji Gehchan: That’s such a great advice, Sammy. Finding this harmony, this balance, as you’re saying, is really key for us as humans, right?
And several times, you know, with many leaders I discussed, it’s something we realized later on in our life and career. So as early as you just take it and embrace it and believe that those who are saying it like you is, is really true. I think it’s. is, would be super beneficial as we grow and, and develop our careers and our lives.
If we look forward now, um, thinking really about innovation in healthcare, it’s something you’re passionate about to touch us through your work. You, as we said, you work a lot with MIT sandbox startups, entrepreneurship. What are you most excited about when you look forward and things that you think will really improve population health?
Samy Sidhom: This is a very exciting time in medicine and in health care, and I’m, I’m really excited about this future. Um, and I’m very lucky and fortunate to be able to see it from the lens of one of the most innovative places and academic places on on the planet at MIT, and also through the lens of One of the most population health and value based care, um, centered and patient centric organizations, uh, atrius health, um, as physicians, we’re always looking for new tools.
We are always looking for new tools. This has always been the, um, driver for, um, therapies and, um, uh, algorithms and quality, uh, measures. Um, we’re trying to find new tools, uh, and innovate with new things. Uh, and it sounds redundant, innovate with new things, but we’re always looking for something new to use to improve patient care.
And now we have this very amazing, uh, tools of machine learning, deep learning and, and generative AI that promises to potentially continuously improve on processes that it had learned and continues to learn. And to be able to scale tasks. And to be able to scale
interventions, uh, not necessarily interventions that AI is going to be suddenly, uh, doing surgeries, uh, or, um, managing, uh, patients, uh, autonomously, but more so aiding clinicians, uh, to be able to deliver the care that they want to deliver with more efficiency, less burnout. And hopefully better therapeutic accuracy.
Naji Gehchan: So if we double click on artificial intelligence and all the hype around it, is there a use case I’m always kind of, you know, because we used to buy a buzz word, but I’m sure you like me when we discuss, it’s all about the use cases. Like how are you actually using AI to improve something very specific?
So you talked about processes, but is there a use case? That you’re really excited about or you implemented within your groups or you’re looking and a startup that is trying to do it to help improve patient care.
Samy Sidhom: Yes, sir. I have, um, one of the things that we are actually looking at right now and open to pilot soon.
Uh, and this is through, um, work from Optum as documentation, um, for physicians and in the electronic medical record. And I’ve been previously. Exposed to, um, an earlier version of that through our collaboration, uh, with IBM Watson, um, where, um, there was some effort to be able to summarize clinical, um, uh, cases, um, and, and, uh, generate some evidence based, uh, recommendations for managing management of patients with certain chronic conditions, uh, through, um, learning the patient’s chart and record.
But, um, currently we’re looking into documentation to improve physician, um, workflow and reduce documentation burden and burnout, which is a significant problem for physicians. Um, this is just a very simple and very benign case scenario, um, in terms of generative AI and language models. I think, uh, a lot similar to many practitioners nowadays, we are leveraging, um, generative AI to be able to compose, uh, messages and, uh, emails and communications, um, without, uh, of course disclosing any private information, uh, for patients.
Composing emails, composing messages, composing, um, certain algorithms. Um, those are, have been very useful. And I think that’s not just for medicine. This is just more of a business, uh, office, um, uh, case use in terms of entrepreneur, entrepreneurship and, and startups, um, there are certainly, you know, we’ve seen an implosion, uh, of many different startups, uh, using AI techniques and.
Uh, and methods, um, whether it’s from, uh, learning, um, certain patterns about patients, uh, conditions and suggesting, uh, treatments, for example, uh, learning about patients, um, vital signs and use of certain medications and pattern of using inhalers to predict, um, exacerbations of chronic lung conditions like asthma and COPD, um, have certainly come across a number of startups in that, in that space.
Um, and in addition to that, there’s also, um, the models for physical rehab, for example, and, um, patients, uh, analyzing patient’s movements and analyzing their, uh, posture, uh, to predict falls, uh, or to improve their, uh, uh, physical conditioning and gait, um, and so on and so forth. There is a numerous, uh, numerous, uh, Case uses, and I think it will be, it will take us much more than this podcast to go through.
Um, fortunately, actually, I’ll be hosting a panel of, um, uh, healthcare leaders shortly at MIT is through the Sloan Healthcare and Bioinnovation Conference, and we’ll be discussing exactly those. Um, cases and, uh, similar scenarios and the outlook and the vision for different leaders in the industry, uh, from care delivery leaders to, uh, tech companies, um, and such as Amazon Health, uh, Sciences, um, and, uh, that will be coming up soon in a couple of weeks.
Naji Gehchan: That’s great. And we’re partners of, uh, as you know, of the healthcare conference, uh, Spread Love and organizations. So we’ll certainly talk more about it, uh, with you and the panelists. Uh, as you talk about MIT, I feel it’s a big part of your story, your life. It certainly is for me too. Uh, you are graduating soon.
So congrats in advance. I would love to hear from you your key takeaways as a physician going through the program from a leadership lens.
Samy Sidhom: Thank you. Um, yes, we’ve, we’ve sat through the same classes, uh, and you’re ahead of me in the game. So I would be, uh, rehashing what you’ve learned. Uh, but MIT has kind of taken on a life of its own for me now.
Uh, the last two years have been transformational. I look at things very differently nowadays, uh, and I owe that to, um, the recalibration that we’ve gone through. Over the past, um, many months or the past couple of years, um, uh, I see things in a, in a different lens and I apply, um, uh, the, uh, operation processes, uh, lenses, uh, culturally, politically as well.
Um, so everything is, is, uh, is looked at with a different, uh, discernment and, uh, different, uh, I different vision and, uh, I look things a lot more deeper than just superficially. Um, Just a normal, uh, trip to the grocery store is, is different now, uh, looking at the pricing and the shelving and, uh, the
Naji Gehchan: workflow.
Don’t tell me you, you do also like all the flow once you get on the, uh, on the payments and Exactly, exactly. And, uh, looking to see
Samy Sidhom: Trying to But from a physician perspective, it did open up my eyes to the fact that, um, you know, we, as physicians, it’s not just about patient care, like, in terms of prescribing, um, medication X for condition Y, um, it’s more about, um, There is a bigger picture and, and this picture, I’m glad to learn it because I’m so keen and interested in population health management and value based care, meaning, you know, giving the, the most value, um, and highest quality care, not at a, at an exuberant, exuberant cost, uh, to the patients and to the healthcare system, but reasonable.
Um, and that’s through efficiency through knowing what, uh, what to prioritize, what to, uh, implement and how to manage populations, not just one person. Um, and I think we were very narrow, you know, as a lot of my, uh, my physician colleagues in the, uh, in the program, we enter very narrow minded as physicians.
Um, but we graduate this program as innovators, as people who can see a bigger picture, people who can involve. Uh, so many different facets of management into health care, and in that way, I feel like this is just going to be such a tremendous tool for improvement of health care. Uh, in this country, um, the business, the, this, the goal of be obtaining an MBA after an MD should not just because of making more money or getting higher positions and, and, and glamour or, um, improving the bottom line, but it’s more so to really improve the care for patients.
Because they care for the patients. It’s not just clinical knowledge, and we have to really understand that that’s the case. And this is something I encourage many of my physician colleagues to consider and that it’s not just the microcosm of science. Uh, it’s healthcare lives within a bigger ecosystem.
Naji Gehchan: Certainly, this system dynamic approach for us to be able to improve healthcare globally and increase our impact as, as leaders in the health industry. I would love now for you to give me your first thought when I give you a word. And the first one is leadership. Um,
Samy Sidhom: servant leadership.
Um, leadership is, is being a servant leader, uh, is for me is that that word service comes before leadership. And because leaders are elected or chosen or rise to the top to serve a purpose and to serve a population and to serve others. Um, otherwise, there’s, in my opinion, there’s no, um, need for leadership.
Naji Gehchan: What about value based care?
Samy Sidhom: Inclusivity. Um, and you have to be inclusive to provide high value. And I’m not talking about just socioeconomic. I’m talking about orphan conditions. Um, is just just as important as common conditions. Um, being able to afford quality care. Um, everybody should be able to be afforded quality, high quality care.
Um, the care that you receive should not be based on your color of your skin, where you come from, what zip code you’re at, what your title at work is, uh, who pays your rent. It should be based on you as a human. Um, and that’s the common denominator.
Naji Gehchan: The third word is entrepreneurship.
Samy Sidhom: Um, I was just reading the other day that entrepreneurship is an act of rebellion. And, um, yes, and, um, you’re basically are, um, driven, uh, out of necessity or out of the, um, uh, dissatisfaction with the status quo to innovate and to create a new product. and to be able to get that product off the ground and make it successful and afford it to people who need it.
Um,
Naji Gehchan: and the last one is spread love and organizations,
Samy Sidhom: with transparency and honesty. Um, and I think this is, um,
one criticism I, I had once Uh, from a colleague is that I lead with my heart and, um, I took it as a compliment. Actually, initially it bugged me, but eventually it became more of a calling and, uh, more of a, uh, rallying cry. Um, yes, I will lead with my heart and I would lead, uh, with empathy and with transparency and with honesty, uh, because that’s what the world needs.
We don’t need behind closed door. Um, deals. We don’t need, um, bait and switch and leadership. We don’t need, um, deception and lip service. Um, and if we follow that concept of servant leadership, we really have to serve the people that we are with and the people that we serve. We cannot serve without honesty.
We cannot serve without transparency. Yes, of course. Organizational secrets and trade secrets. Intellectual property, uh, are important. Uh, and it’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking more about, um, having a mission that’s clear and apparent and transparent, um, having intentions that are transparent, having goals that are clear and, um, and delivering it, uh, with all honesty.
And I think that’s when you have buy in. That’s when you have people believing in your mission and their mission and, uh, will enable you to become a leader, an effective leader.
Naji Gehchan: This is so powerful, Sami. What you said is really, is powerful. You said, I will lead with my heart, transparently and honestly. I might borrow this from you.
I love it.
Samy Sidhom: Thank you.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom for health care leaders around the world?
Samy Sidhom: Um, We need more leaders, and, um, I know this has been somewhat controversial in, in healthcare as many people are looking into administrative positions, uh, and less clinical positions. And, but at the same time, it’s really important that each physician and health care person, um, is a leader, even on their own small scale and leadership.
As I met, as I mentioned earlier, my view on it is a servant leadership and, uh, I don’t have, I don’t need to have, you know, 50 or 100 or 1000 people directly reporting to me to become a leader. Um, I can be a leader within my own patient panel. Um, and my own small office. Um, but we need better leaders who are able to cross cultural and ideological and political barriers because when we are guarded in our own little, um, uh, ecosystems, um, then we don’t have growth.
We don’t have collaboration. We don’t have, uh, this cross federalization and, and my calling would be to be able to Have many of us that are able to overcome to become more of the dominant population of leaders are the leaders who are able to collaborate and be able to cross barriers, um, because unfortunately, many leaders rise up to the top, um, but don’t don’t have, um, that view and don’t have that, um, um.
Spreading love with leadership view. Um, it’s more of a very hierarchical and, um, uh, and more of a power of view, uh, of, of leadership. And, um, I challenge everyone really to be transparent, to be honest, to be inclusive, to have empathy, to have compassion. And to be a servant leader.
Naji Gehchan: Those are great words of wisdom for all of us.
You said something that is really powerful, especially during these days. I think it has always been, but in days where we’re seeing more and more polarization, more and more, unfortunately, hate more than love. Having leaders, as you said, who can overcome cultural, political thoughts, personal beliefs and barriers for us to be able to collaborate and make the world a better place is so crucial.
Thank you so much, Sammy. Um, I know you’re doing it on a daily basis, impacting several patients and impacting your organization and beyond. So thank you for all that you’re doing and for being with me today.
Samy Sidhom: Thank you so much, Nadia. I greatly enjoyed our conversation and, uh, I’ve been really looking forward to be here and, um, um, your questions are insightful and wonderful and they did not disappoint.
And thank you. I look forward to hearing more episodes with you and other wonderful guests.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this special episode in collaboration with MIT Sloan Healthcare and BioInnovations Conference, an event that brings the Healthcare Ecosystem Together. I have the pleasure to be joined by Britt Wahlin is the Vice President for Development and Public Affairs at Ibis Reproductive Health, a global nonprofit research organization working to advance sexual and reproductive autonomy, choices, and health. She leads fund development, communications, and policy and advocacy initiatives and serves on the senior management team. She is proud to be part of the leadership of Free the Pill, a coalition-driven campaign operated by Ibis that aims to move birth control pills over the counter in the United States and ensure they are affordable, covered by insurance, and available to people of all ages without a prescription. Before Ibis, Britt created public engagement campaigns for social justice-themed films and worked in women’s and girls’ philanthropy. She obtained her Bachelor of Arts in Modern Thought and Literature and Master of Arts in Humanities from Stanford University. She lives in Charlottesville, Virginia, with her husband and two daughters.
Britt, it is great to have you with me today!
Britt Wahlin: Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Naji Gehchan: Before we go and dig in transitions to over the counter products, which was the topic of your panel at the Sloan Healthcare Conference, I’m really eager to learn more about you, about your personal story, what brought you to healthcare, and now being a leading voice on such crucial social topics of reproductive health.
Britt Wahlin: Sure. Yeah, I’m happy to share my story. Uh, so yeah, looking back, um, when I was growing up in California, I was always focused on, like, what’s doing, what was, doing what was right. I care deeply about social justice. Uh, I led service organizations. I volunteered in high school. Um, but it actually wasn’t until I was in college that I, uh, understood you could actually have a career working in the nonprofit sector.
I just didn’t know there were so many options out there. Um, and it was also in college that I followed my feminist calling, um, both in my studies, um, in the internships I did. Um, I, one day, my first year in college, walked into the Women’s Center, like, what can I do? How can I get involved? Um, I ended up working with, um, an organization focused on electing women to public office, uh, which was great.
really gratifying and I learned so much. Uh, I also in college took a class called Philanthropy and Social Justice, um, and I learned how to write a grant proposal. Uh, and so then as I was looking about what to do after college, uh, I was really interested in resource mobilization, uh, and distribution. I was really, um, interested in how philanthropic dollars could be used to reduce the wealth gap, um, and also to reallocate resources to communities.
Um, so the first job I had was with what’s now called the Women’s Foundation of California. Um, I worked with organizations and leaders around the state who were doing incredible work. Um, they were. organizing, providing health education to farm workers in the Central Valley, uh, groups that were supporting young women who were part of the street economy in San Francisco and transforming them into leaders.
I, uh, and these groups, they were so appreciative of our 10, grants, and they did so much with those funds. Um, but I had a strong desire to Amplify those stories, um, to let more people know about these amazing leaders and the work and the impact they were having. Um, so I really wanted to kind of shift into, uh, communications work.
I moved to Boston. I continued working with, um, private foundations that were committed to investing in women’s and girls issues and organizations. Um, but I also did more of this communications work, um, I worked with an organization called Active Voice, which I think you mentioned in my bio, um, harnessed the power of character driven, social issue film, um, to inspire community engagement and action.
I also had the privilege to spend a year overseas, um, mostly in Burma, um, officially known as Myanmar. Um, after my return, I, Looked specifically into opportunities that were global in scope and, um, specifically kind of global health, um, I, I also wanted to return to what felt like my true calling of advancing gender equity, um, uplifting women’s and women and girls health and rights.
And that led me to Ibis Reproductive Health, where I am now. And I was hired as the first development and communication staff person. And that’s where I’ve been for the last 17 years. I’m now currently in the role of Vice President for Development and Public Affairs.
Naji Gehchan: Oh, thank you so much, Britt, for sharing your journey.
And what you’ve been doing is really impressive and inspiring. Um, I, you know, we’re going to talk about, uh, obviously, OTC and your thoughts about this. But the follow up question to what you said, you talked about gender equity, and you’ve been, um, an advocate, an activist, and working, uh, intensely on this.
I would love your view about it. How do you, where do you see us today? Do you see improvements? Are we there yet? Are we not there yet? Consistently think and talk about those things for several reasons. And I’d love, I’d love your view as an expert on this.
Britt Wahlin: Sure, that’s an excellent question. It’s, gosh, a big question. Uh, yes. Are we, um, there are a few, maybe two ways, um, I can start to point to some progress. Um, first, um, I think we, We now have, um, much more sophisticated and inclusive frameworks for talking about these issues. When I was, you know, back in college, I was talking about, like, women’s issues and, and actually girls issues, because girls were really forgotten for so long.
And, um, that was such a neglected area of, like, say, youth programming. There was not a gender lens applied to it. Um, but I, you know, I think we were missing the, the racial justice angle. Um, also, um, when I was in college, I think we were only just then starting to talk about kind of reproductive justice, something broader than, you know, what pro choice, for example, like for so long, the, um, women’s movement was.
As many say, like very much defined by kind of white women’s issues and, um, focus specifically on abortion rights. Someone made that argument. I mean, that I think it was always more than that, but that that was certainly true in many cases in some of the larger organizations. And so, um, The reproductive justice framework, which, um, was created by black women, um, and actually, it’s going to be the 30th anniversary of those women coming together to create this framework, um, came up with a much more, um, a broader and a more inclusive framework, um, recognizing that, um, whereas, um, so much of feminism and second wave feminism, um, uh, up to, um, Um, into the, the 1970s had focused so much on, um, the right to abortion that for women of color, it was a lot about the right to reproduce and reproductive justice, um, that the main kind of tenets of that are that we have the right to have children, the right not to have children, and the right to have parents in communities that are safe and free of violence.
So I think we are seeing that framework and pieces of that framework very much more in the space of gender equity and reproductive health rights. and justice today. Um, and so that is an advancement. I think we, we have a much more sophisticated and inclusive framework, um, and much more of a focus on, um, ensuring that, uh, women of color, people of color, indigenous people, um, Latine folks, um, Asian, American, Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander folks are at the table, um, and in leadership positions.
And I think our kind of organizational movement space looks much different than it did, say, 20, 30 years ago. Um, but of course, we’re facing so many setbacks in reproductive, uh, health and, and rights in this country. So it’s also, um, A really frightening time for any person who is capable of being pregnant in the United States.
We have many advances that I will talk about that are helping deliver care and bring increased access in innovative ways, but also, um, policies and politicians that seem really determined to take away, um, people’s bodily autonomy.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, well, thanks for bringing this up. And I think it’s a good transition to, uh, to your work, uh, with free the pill and the OTC word, and this is part of the topic you discussed. So if we start. on a broad position about transitions to OTC. What was, how do you think about this? Uh, which type of drugs should get there?
And what really did you discuss during this panel about those transitions?
Britt Wahlin: Sure. Uh, well, you know, ultimately creating, uh, More over the counter options for, uh, health products, for drugs, medications, devices, can bring care more directly to people, bring health, you know, put health care directly in people’s hands.
Um, so I think that was one of the really big takeaways of the panel. Um. My, my focus and, and as you mentioned, um, at the beginning, um, IBIS reproductive health, uh, leads the, the free the pill, um, campaign. It’s a coalition driven campaign. We have over 200 members representing, um, researchers, advocates, uh, health professions, associations, young people, activists.
We’re a very broad based, uh, coalition. Um, This coalition started 20 years, actually, almost to the date, um, 20 years ago, um, because a group of researchers and advocates, um, were interested in exploring how, um, removing the birth control, removing the requirement, prescription requirement for birth control pills, um, could expand access to safe and effective contraception.
Um, birth control pills have been around for now over 60 years. They’re well studied. They’re, they’re safe. Even 20 years ago, the, this group felt that they met the criteria for over the counter status. Um, and it was IBIS Reproductive Health’s founder, Charlotte Ellertson, who convened that very first meeting, um, 20 years ago.
And, um, it took 20 years of evidence generation, coalition building, kind of building support. And then, of course, a pharmaceutical company, um, HRA Pharma, which then became Parago, to bring a product through the FDA regulatory process. Um, and the FDA approved the first over the counter birth control pill back in July of this past year.
So
Naji Gehchan: this is a great achievement for your organization and for women in this country. Do you feel the work is done?
Britt Wahlin: The work with, uh, The work of gender equity or reproductive,
Naji Gehchan: yeah, specifically on advancing, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, productive justice through, uh, through lifting this barrier on birth control.
Britt Wahlin: Yeah, so for just to stay with the topic first of, of over the counter birth control pills, um, That that was a huge achievement getting FDA approval of the first with the kind of birth control pill and, um, and, and we really believe our coalition sees this as a movement when that this was a broad coalition and people clamoring organizations clamoring for this and, um, Making the case for why this is so important because people face too many barriers to accessing contraception.
And here’s a really innovative way to help increase access. So, um, so we did it. We hit, we hit that, um, big milestone, um, But and now, you know, you can go look in your local pharmacies and some grocery stores. I hope to see that the product is called Opal is on the shelf. Just the last couple of weeks, it’s been hitting the shelf stores around the country.
But now we need to make sure people can access the product. It needs to be covered by insurance. Um, that’s now only happening sporadically in a few states, um, that require coverage of over the counter contraception without a prescription. Um, we need there to be federal change, federal, um, that the administration could make that change right now and, and offer guidance through that this falls under the Affordable Care Act to require insurance companies to cover coverage over the counter contraception without a prescription.
Um, and we also need other innovative ways to get the product to people. You know, it’s, it’s 20 for a single pack. It’s, that’s, that’s unaffordable for many people, um, young people, um, people working to make ends meet. So we, um, the company is offering a community, uh, consumer assistance program. Um, and we need to support innovative ways for people to get the product, um, at affordable, at an affordable cost through their for to introduce to you, Title 10, um, family planning clinics, um, at a sliding scale, uh, through vending machines, um, through just free product donated to community, um, centers where people can access it.
So, so yes, the work won’t be done until we, we ensure that people can. Um, access the product, anyone who needs it can, um, and that, you know, that’s one piece. I’m happy to talk about other work that needs to be done. Um, IBIS works on, um, so many different topics, um, contraception access, but also, um, abortion access, and there’s, there’s a way to go in, in all of these.
On all of these issues, but, um, I think, uh, we are making progress and bringing innovation, um, in terms of how we deliver these services to people, um, whether it’s over the counter or methods like, um, models like telehealth, which is also helping, helping more people access services.
Naji Gehchan: Well, this is, this is again, uh, great impactful work that you’re doing and step by step as you’re saying to move the needle and help, uh, several, uh, women, uh, what’s your biggest learning as a leader, uh, you personally having led such important social issues, which unfortunately several times are becoming divisive.
political issues rather than human, you know, topics and social topics as we should discuss them or sometimes medical topics actually, um, that we should discuss. What’s your biggest learning in this and is there any advice you would give for young leaders passionate about social impact these days?
Britt Wahlin: Yeah, that that’s a great, that’s a great question.
I, I think one of the parts of my work that has been the most satisfying is, is how value centered it is, and how. We at IBIS, um, and in our coalition work and work with partners, um, can always, um, kind of lean into values, um, around equity and inclusion, um, trust. We engage in what we call principled partnerships, which are based on kind of shared power, mutual trust, transparency.
And. You know, in the example of, um, the Free the Pill coalition, um, that coalition led with its values. Um, one example is we, um, wanted to avoid the FDA imposing an age restriction on the product. That happened with emergency contraception plan be many years ago when it went over the counter it took six years for it to be fully over the counter and and not requiring people to show an ID to get it behind the counter.
So, uh, we did not compromise on that. Um, and we Uh, engaged in an adult youth adult partnership. We worked with an amazing organization continue to do so advocates for youth. Um, we, they created a platform for young people to speak up about the issue. And they test young people testified very powerfully before the FDA about why having an over the counter birth control pill was so important and about the barriers that they and their friends have faced.
Um, and at the end of the day, like. We, we won by leading with our values. So, you know, I think it’s, it’s a tough moment to work in reproductive health rights and justice. And I, you know, my colleagues, um, I work with at IBIS, organizations we partner with in this, um, in the United States. Um, it, it can be, it can be tough.
We have, we have We had the Dobbs decision a couple of years ago come from the Supreme Court. We’re now awaiting more um, abortion related decisions from the Supreme Court and it can be hard to be working so hard trying to like do what’s right. bring, um, help to people to access the services they have every right to and then face these setbacks.
But there are these wins like free the pill that, you know, those are our bright spots and, um, and, and those will come. I think you, you can’t give up and can’t compromise on your values. Um, that the losses are going to come. Regardless of whether you compromise, I think, you know, there are sometimes forces that are going to, um, no matter what you do, get in the way.
So, um, working in collaboration and principle partnership and kind of leading with your values. I think it’s always what’s going to help you win at the end of the day.
Naji Gehchan: I love it. Principal partnership and leading with your values for, for, uh, for you to win, for us to win. Uh, I’m gonna now move on giving you a word and I would love your first reaction to it.
The first one is leadership.
Britt Wahlin: Collaboration. You know, that, that’s, if you’d asked me like 20 years ago, I don’t think I would have said that. It’s like my first response. Um, I. When I think about leadership these days, it’s so much about collaboration. It’s about kind of stepping back and listening and listening to your team, listening to your partners, not needing to be the one who’s out there.
Um, but the 1, who’s seeing the strengths and everyone you work with and finding the ways to to make. Each person, um, shine using their strengths. And knowing, I mean, the work is. It’s, you know, our, our vision, it’s, it’s too ambition, ambitious to be ever, um, focused on as, as one individual, um, we’ll only get there by working together.
Naji Gehchan: The second one is health equity.
Britt Wahlin: Health equity to me means that we are designing systems that meet everyone’s needs. Thank you. And especially the needs of those who’ve been most impacted by systemic inequities, by structural racism, um, by barriers to, to getting the care that people really do deserve. And so that means, you know, creating really inclusive systems that, that meet people where they are.
Naji Gehchan: What about social justice?
Britt Wahlin: You know, I feel like, again, this is one of those, like, way back when I thought so much about social justice, and now I think much more about human rights, um, and kind of justice writ large, um, think our frameworks have changed, like I spoke about earlier, we, we talk now about reproductive justice, and gender justice, and climate justice, And is social justice, it feels like really an inadequate kind of term now, um, for, for all of the justices potentially that are part of that.
And, um, to me, the broadest framework we have is, is human rights, um, and achieving justice is ensuring that everybody is able to realize the human rights that they have.
Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread love in organizations.
Britt Wahlin: Well, first, I think you need to love what you do. Um, if you don’t, that’s going to show up somehow. When you’re a leader in an organization and, um, and when you love what you do, you, you bring that love to, to the people you work with. And this has been a learning for me to really show up authentically and to build trust and really build relationships with your team, your colleagues, the other groups you partner with, um, that requires some, some vulnerability.
Yeah, that is, that continues to be my learning edge. Um, I think I kind of started out as a, my, I started out my career feeling like my professional and personal boundaries were like very distinct. Um, and of course we, we all need to have our boundaries. That’s important, but, um, you also really just need to show up, um, as, as who you are and to the people you work with.
And, and again, that requires. Letting your, letting that guard down a bit. Um, also important to that is being able to, yeah, show your, you know, you’re human. You’re not perfect. We all make mistakes and letting your team know that. So to me, that kind of vulnerability is a way of bringing love, spreading love within your organization.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?
Britt Wahlin: Healthcare leaders. Yes. Well, you know, you don’t. There’s there’s so many ways that health care leaders, whether they’re working for profit kind of entity for pharmaceutical company health care system. It doesn’t have to just be a nonprofit organization like mine to be really making a difference and and bringing a helping to bring about health equity.
Um, so I guess I would encourage health leaders to think about, um. Innovation. For expanding access, um, that could be in a specific product or a service delivery method, but it also could be looking at your own kind of practices as an organization and what you’re doing for your employees. So you offer robust.
Reproductive health coverage for all of your employees, for example, cover over the counter of contraception without a prescription. You can look at your own policies and practices. And then the second thing I would impart is, is what was, I think, part of what has been successful about, um, or one of the key things that’s been successful about the free the pill movement and having an over the counter birth control pill is.
Um, we, there’s been a different kind of switch. We, there was a pharmaceutical company, Paraga, who ultimately took this through the FDA process, but, um, this was not just driven by pharma, this was driven by communities, by advocates, by people wanting, um, this option because it would expand access to contraception.
And I. I would, I want, I, my advice would be healthcare leaders to the healthcare leaders is to listen to communities, hear what communities need, what to patients need, what, where do they see room to improve and expand access. That’s, that’s what’s going to make your innovation, your intervention successful in the end and have it really be impactful and expand access for people who need it most.
Naji Gehchan: Uh, and as you said, uh, going back to this principled partnership, and if we’re all leading with, uh, our values and trying to solve for patients, for our communities, I’m sure the world will be a better place. And thank you so much for joining me, for making the world a better place for, uh, several women. So thank you so much, Britt, again, for being with me today.
Britt Wahlin: Thank you, Naji. It’s been such a pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this special episode in collaboration with MIT Sloan Healthcare and BioInnovations Conference, an event that brings the Healthcare Ecosystem Together. I have the pleasure to be joined by Michael McKeown acting CSO/head of research for a stealth start-up at the Pagliuca Harvard Life Labs. Michael started out in California getting his BS in Chemistry at UCSD and working in the Nobel Prize winning Tsien lab on fluorescent proteins. He then moved to Boston, earning a PhD in Chemical Biology from Harvard while working on novel cancer therapeutics at the DFCI. During this time, Michael contributed to several start-ups spun out the the lab, ultimately joining Syros Pharmaceuticals. As part of this work, he developed novel patient biomarker and pharmacodynamic markers to enable selection of the right patients and kinetic monitoring of response. With 10 years of industry drug discovery and development experience in the Boston area, Michael has contributed and led multiple successful programs. Most recently, he led pharmacology at Kronos Bio supporting combinations, biomarkers, and PD assays for the clinical programs as well as leading biology for their most advanced pre-clinical program generating an asset currently in IND enabling studies.
Michael, so good to have you with me today!
Michael McKeown: Thanks for having me on.
Naji Gehchan: Before we dig in “innovation and decentralization in clinical trials” the topic of your panel at SHBC, I am eager to hear more about your personal story. What brought you to the biotech industry and now heading research in biotechs?
Michael McKeown: Sure. Thanks. Um, Yeah, you know, I’ve always had a very strong interest in science, and, you know, I was very fortunate, uh, when I was at UCSD to be able to work with the Chen lab, um, you know, and getting to experience flexible proteins and imaging, um, and from there, you know, I moved to Boston, and, you know, Um, I got to hear a lecture in one of my classes from a professor, James Bradner, who was just starting out at the time, um, but he was so inspirational and so passionate about cancer therapeutics and helping patients, and especially as a physician scientist, that, um, I signed up and joined his lab, um, when he was at Zanf Harbor.
Um, of course, he went on from there to, to head up NIBR, and he’s now at Amgen. But it was just such a cool experience to be able to do, to be able to do research in a context where, you know, we were passing by patients, seeing them, you know, seeing the real effects of this every day when we were getting lunch and, and in the building.
Naji Gehchan: So going from there and from labs, as you said, to a startup word, several startups spinning out of labs, and now up to pre IND assets. So I’m, I’m intrigued by your leadership learning. What did you learn along the way moving from academia to entrepreneurship and building biotechs?
Michael McKeown: That’s a good question.
I mean, And I think part of the learning happens through, you know, classes and stuff. And there’s always, you know, like a little bit of the HR training and development at companies, but so much of it comes from, you know, mentorship. You know, I think the, the CSO at CIROS, um, when I was there, Eric Olson was really inspirational.
Um, you know, taught a lot about, you know, how to, how to manage organization that, you know, You know, people are important that, you know, one of the key things is, is, um, reducing unforced errors, right? Science is hard. So we’ve got to just reduce our incidents of mistakes that we could have prevented. Um, the other part is learning.
So, you know, in reading and actually my wife and I both, you know, we’re both in biotech. And so we purchased book series from like Harvard Business Review and, um, took classes at HBS and stuff. Um, I think that was really helpful, but yeah, yeah. I feel very fortunate that. There were some very good mentors and examples and leaders in some of the earlier organizations I was at to learn from.
Naji Gehchan: So if I double click on this, now that you’re acting CSO, is there one leadership behavior or one, one of the leaders who inspired you most that you would replicate what they have done as you are leading teams? And I loved how you framed it on the science part, right? Like science is hard. We need to reduce incidents of mistakes.
And as, so as you lead those teams with the ups and downs, this, this is where I’m asking these questions.
Michael McKeown: Yeah, so I think one of the one of the interesting features of science leadership in particular is that you’re trained to be a technical expert in your career, right? You go to grad school, you get a PhD, maybe do a postdoc and even work up in early levels of science and industry.
You are a technical expert and ever, ever deeper into your technical niche. And then suddenly. At some point, you start getting reports and you start to be more of a manager and a strategist and budgets and timelines and stuff, and you haven’t really had much training to prepare you for that. Um, so I think, you know, part of this is, you know, really embracing that, trying to learn, trying to learn from people around you, and especially some of the more senior people.
Um, you know, especially if you get some of the consultants that are actually like, you know, industry veterans that are semi retired. Um, the other one, I think a lot of scientists and, you know, I, I’ve struggled this with this. And so either colleagues or managers is that your skills will become obsolete someday.
And so, you know, your technical skills, like the way that I learned to do a Western blot is no longer how any of the labs do a Western blot, right? That’s okay. It’s much faster now. That’s wonderful. But, like, I have to be okay listening to the people who are now the technical exp, and, you know, understanding that my most important contributions aren’t micromanaging them.
It’s listening to them.
You know, the strategy and the value that we can create as a company and how it can help patients and helping to match that with what the scientists are telling me to make that fit into, you know, what we can actually accomplish with our budget and runway and timeline.
Naji Gehchan: I love this. And you’re framing it through practically unlearning sometime, uh, what we’ve learned before and also be humble enough, right?
On, on those aspects where you’re not an expert in managing teams. So that. I’m, I also have in my team scientists and physicians, so I, I relate to what you’re saying. And it’s an important piece of being humble and say, okay, I’m going to learn how to lead people and manage people. So I love how you frame both.
If we now go to your panel discussion, uh, I’d love first to hear your view, your personal view about innovation and decentralization in clinical trials from a broad perspective.
Michael McKeown: Yeah, so there were kind of two main things I was really trying to push, um, you know, in bringing to the panel and I want to make sure we covered for the discussion.
And one of them was getting the right drugs to the right patients. You know, there’s been a lot of talk about precision medicine, biomarkers. This has been driven by the ever, you know, cheaper ability to do NGS, for instance, you know, next generation sequencing, which used to be quite expensive and prohibitive, and now is actually quite commonplace for a lot of patients, at least at research hospitals.
Um, you know, so actually leveraging a lot of biomarkers to match the right patients with the right drugs, and then also getting more innovative, more Um, you know, as opposed to, you know, moving away from kind of the history of just, well, let’s get to MTD. Let’s do an all all comers advanced trial with the end stage patients.
They’ve seen a ton of prior therapies. Um, I just don’t think that that has a very high probability of success. And even more, I think it actually weeds out drugs. That would have value if they weren’t put through that process. So that’s kind of it at a high level.
Naji Gehchan: Great. So now let’s dig a little bit deeper.
If we take, because it’s a broad topic, and this is why I wanted to start at a high level, right? Like innovation and decentralization. So let’s now take the decentralization piece in clinical trials. A lot has been said, a lot is going on. COVID kind of reshaped or accelerated, I should say, some of those pieces.
How do you think of it today? And really behind this question, I’d love for you, if you can share, what are we trying to solve? With the city.
Michael McKeown: Yeah. So on the decentralized side, um, I’m actually a big fan of the investigator sponsored trials where, you know, this gets back to kind of hypothesis testing. So, you know, if you could open up your clinical trial, and there were some umbrella trials a few years ago, but they’re actually a bit less common now.
And I was hoping that trend would catch on more. But, you know, what I’d like to see is if you could open your trial and maybe the company or the original sponsor has an initial hypothesis they’re testing, but you just can’t possibly know everything. And so we’ve got to be able to, you know, capture the value of all these other scientists and physician scientists around the country and around the world that are coming up with innovative applications and ideas.
And so if they come to you with an IST. It would be nice if we could kind of bolt that onto the umbrella, figure out kind of the fastest way we can test this hypothesis, figure out if there’s a there there. And if you do get some traction, then, you know, expand out your path to try and cover that and get, you know, approval.
And this could work for, you know, maybe you find a new, Um, accelerated path to your first approval that you hadn’t even thought of. Or maybe this is an opportunity to expand. Um, and I think this is actually especially impactful in some of the smaller disease areas. Because maybe, you know, your, your original science had, couldn’t really model it.
There, there’s not as good modeling available. It’s not something that was originally on your radar, but, you know, if a really motivated physician scientist or patient community comes to you with this hypothesis, we’ve got to find a way to kind of, you know, decentralize, loosen up the structure to allow this sort of hypothesis testing.
Naji Gehchan: And as you’re thinking about those hypotheses from an investigator dance, uh, and from a company, then, so, uh, you’re trying actually this umbrella idea and then taking innovation from it from outside, say, say new indications or other pieces, put it in this one in like umbrella, uh, trial you’re thinking of, how do you think about, um, and did you discuss in the panel, the patient’s implication?
Of decentralized trial on their participation in those trials and how it’s done globally.
Michael McKeown: Yeah, that was discussed a bit. And, you know, particularly around, you know, matching people up. And so I think there, there is kind of some need for innovation there that. You know, if you, if you go to one of the main, you know, research hubs to a major research hospital, getting on a clinical trial is going to be a lot easier.
But if you’re not, you know, in 1 of those areas. it can be a lot harder to find. Now, I think one of the models that is really encouraging to me is with some of these patient groups. Um, so there’s, there’s some foundations and, you know, patient, patient disease centric organizations that have kind of taken this from a grassroots approach, and they will help connect patients with the trials, with the cutting edge research.
Give them a community of other people to talk to. Um, and that could be phenomenal. I’ve seen cases where, you know, they were concerned. Oh, that’s a rare disease. We’ll have really hard time enrolling it. And because there was a foundation and a patient group behind it, that actually became the fastest enrolling cohort on the trial.
Um, which, you know, nobody really expected, but that just shows the power of, you know, what we can do in the digital age and the power of, you know, the patient experience.
Naji Gehchan: Sure. And, and we’ve seen there’s tremendous work of patient advocacy group, uh, as you said, to help patients through their diseases and clinical trial, uh, can several times be actually the best treatment option for patients.
And so the working with advocacy group is certainly. impactful and we should all be grateful for what they do. Um, and you touch on something that was kind of my follow up question, uh, on some area, you said some areas might not have those trials and especially in your idea of, for example, IITs or IIS, it depends which academic group most probably will have the trial, et cetera.
So I’m thinking from a diversity and equity approach of those initiatives. Has this been discussed and how decentralized clinical trials or innovation in clinical trials can help improve diversity in clinical trials?
Michael McKeown: That’s a really interesting point. I mean, I think just being able to capture, um, more diverse geography helps that a lot.
You know, um, some of the research hospitals and hubs happen to be in cities that that may not capture the full diversity. Um, and so, you know, just being able to make sure you’re capturing, um. You know, potential patients from, you know, maybe, you know, rural areas. More in the South and Midwest. Um, you know, I live in Boston, and so we’ve got, you know, MGH and Dana Farber and Brigham and, you know, just the South or Mario Sloan Kettering, you know, multiple research hospitals in New York, but, um, you’ve got to have mechanisms to be able to boost awareness, um, and access.
And then, you know, the other thing I think has really helped there, Um, is um, you know, foundations have helped with patients getting to those sites. So maybe the only way to get that new treatment is to get to one of those research hubs. And if that’s the case, there’s got to be a way to help cover the costs.
Because I think that, that is one of the prohibitive things is, is just, can you afford to, you know, leave your hometown, get on a plane, fly, and put yourself up? In that area for, you know, an extended period of time, if you’re going through, you know, multiple infusions of a therapy. Um, so, yeah, you know, there’s got to be some mechanism to cover that.
And I don’t think that’s generally going to be coming from, like, insurance reimbursements as is currently structured.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, those are those are great points from from a participant plans, right? Especially for underserved communities, how we work with advocacy group or other mechanism to, uh, to ensure the time, uh, the transportation, as you said.
So these are great examples. Uh, you’re giving. Uh, and then also community sites, I think, is one of the important pieces, uh, for, for diverse enrollment. Um, as you discuss those, I would love to hear your point of view. What excites you most from an innovation standpoint in clinical trial that you think will literally change the way we are, uh, from designing to executing our clinical trials in the future?
Michael McKeown: Yeah, I mean, I kind of touched on it earlier with the biomarkers, but, you know, it still feels like a very nascent application. The promise of NGS, of sequencing, of knowing exactly what the mutations are, what the What the condition is of the patient. Um, that’s still being rolled out, you know, and so I think some of the front front runners here and like, um, so in blood cancers, they’re actually restructure stratifying the disease based on your mutational profiling and linking that to what treatments you should get.
Um, so, you know, that’s starting to happen for, for standard care treatments, but even on new clinical trials, um, you know, there’s still so many trials out there that just go into the, the phase one advanced all comers, you know, solid tumor, for instance, and oncology or, or try to go for a very broad SWAT.
And I understand that, that, you know, capturing the broad SWAT, you know, has a potential potential implications for a larger market share down the road. And you know, also people say, well, it’s just a phase one that’s just supposed to be for. Um, and to set the dose. But, you know, a lot of investors and a lot of people are watching those trials now and do expect to show some sign of activity.
Um, you know, reason to believe that might be a bit unrealistic or optimistic in some cases, but, you know, nevertheless, that’s kind of what’s happening. So I just worry that, you know, by using these kind of older approaches that we’re actually missing stuff, it could be quite impactful if you were using them in the right patients.
And so. Yeah, I am a strong, strong advocate of leveraging all that science, you know, preclinically that we’re doing. And, you know, using biomarker approaches at the earliest stages of clinical work, at least as a correlate. So you can understand, well, did the people that were positive have a little bit higher activity than the ones that weren’t?
Um, this is actually what, what Ciros, the first company I was at did, you know, we showed that there was an enrichment of response in the biomarker positive patients. And then. When we go to the phase two and now phase three trial, we’re only looking at selected patients. And you have a really, really high response rate because you’ve pre enriched patients.
Um, and what that does is then that actually gets you a smaller trial because you don’t need as many patients because you’ve You know, essentially aren’t enrolling as many likely negative patients in terms of response. Um, and so, you know, if you need less patients, you can enroll faster and complete your trials faster, which is a huge component of the cost.
So, you know, a lot of the cost, you know, a huge portion of the cost in, um, new drug development happens during the clinical trials. And so anything you can do to shorten that and reduce the number of patients and not treat patients who are not likely to benefit. Is a good thing and, you know, furthermore, I look at even even older drugs, you know, you look at something like for septum, which is using her to breast cancer.
You know, that was going for the highest level of expression initially, and that got through and got an approval. And then subsequently, and partly because of real world evidence, and you know, what was happening in the clinics, they’ve since opened that up. And so they’ve figured out that there is benefit for, for an expanded, you know, swath of biomarker patients.
And I, I think that’s a really good way to go. You know, get your, get a fast tactical trial done, you know, um, relatively more efficient. In a selected population, and then open up exploration later, um, and potentially, you know, do more of these ISTs, get the community engaged and find out, well, where else can I use this?
Naji Gehchan: Can I ask a follow up question on biomarkers and your thought about, uh, what’s the hurdle to overcome to get where you’re saying we should go? Uh, and then your thoughts about. We’re hearing a lot about digital biomarkers. I’d love to hear also your thoughts about this.
Michael McKeown: So there’s a couple hurdles, right?
Um, you know, so, so technically, um, are patients able to get these assays done? Are they able to get sequencing done? That hurdles rapidly falling away. Um, you know, another one is, you know, if the samples exist, can you access them? So if you if a. company or another physician would like to run an assay on some of the, maybe some of the bank samples, maybe FFP blocks or, or frozen TBMCs or something from those patients.
Can you actually access the, those samples from the patient? Or will you have to go get that patient to get a new assay done? Because if you can access the archive stuff and that’s still relevant, then that’s going to be another acceleration. Um, the other is kind of on the corporate side with, with kind of with understanding, you know, Market, you know, there is pushback on, well, I don’t want to restrict what my potential, um, you know, uh, label will be down the road.
Uh, I still think that’s, I still think there’s, there’s kind of a double edged sword there that, you know, maybe you’re going for the widest possible label, but if that significantly reduces your probability of success, then I don’t think that’s actually. An advantage there. Um, and then maybe the last is, you know, if you have to run a diagnostic to prescribe a drug down the road, that could create an extra hurdle.
You’re going to have to get. Reimbursement, you’re going to have to make the, uh, diagnostic more available, but, you know, I actually think that also will go away because you look at how many patients, you know, particularly in cancer are getting sequencing or just the general population getting 23 million and stuff like that done is I think a lot of patients are already going to have sequencing done.
And so you’ll have a pretty good idea. Um, whether they’re going to be positive for your assay when you, when you run it, if you’d even need to, because, you know, if they’ve already had good quality sequencing done, maybe you don’t even need to, and I’m focusing, you know, on, on gene sequencing here, but, um, this would be true for some of the more complex, you know, flow cytometry and, and pathology, um, which are all having advances, um, lately.
So, you know, um, Yeah, so access accessing the samples, accessing the data, um, and then convincing people that this is a good way to go, even though it faces some restrictions. Um. You know, this is also, you know, doubly so for some of these rare diseases, because it’s, it’s how are we going to find these patients?
How are we going to find enough of them? Even if we have a good idea that they would be biomarker positive, but, um, that gets back to the trial design issue and the access to trials. And so I think, I think all this stuff’s getting solved. I think it will get better, um, especially with all the digital technologies and even social media that’s helping connect people.
Naji Gehchan: Any thoughts about digital biomarkers? Any thought on the digital biomarkers?
Michael McKeown: Um, you know, I think, I think it’s got promise, but I do worry about how good, you know, medical records you’ve got to get your medical records have to get up to car. So, you know, AI and all these, You know, computational techniques suffer from quality of data and, you know, I, like a lot of Americans have gone through multiple insurers as they change jobs have gone to multiple clinicians.
And so having all of your your own data in a coherent and systematized set that’s actually interpretable. It’s a big hurdle. Um, I was actually working on a project a while back where we were able to import a ton of medical records and anonymized ones to do some data analysis on. And the computational biologist came up to me, he’s like, yeah, I’m looking at this field and there’s 14 different string entries here.
And I look at them and it’s like, HIHI, HIGHIGH, you know, plus sign up, you know, it all meant the same thing, but. That’s actually a huge problem. And we had to create, you know, a database of synonyms just to to work on like one field of patient sample data. So I think that, you know, as we get better at this, as we get to more digital and systematized medical records, that’ll be a big help.
Naji Gehchan: So Michael, I want to now give you a word, and I would love your first reaction to it. Okay. So the first one is leadership.
Michael McKeown: Yeah, I mean, I think that that’s That’s important. Um, and, you know, it touches on, you know, what we started with here, which is You know, leadership really needs to be learned. Um, you know, they talk about natural born leaders, but I think there’s a lot of learning to be had both for mentorship and classes and books and reading.
Um, and to be a good leader. It means that you have to really take that seriously and take a commitment on yourself to you know, constantly be learning and becoming better as a leader.
Naji Gehchan: Drug development.
Michael McKeown: Man, it’s, it’s expensive, but um, you know, I think that these techniques that we were talking about, decentralization, biomarkers, I think there’s ways to accelerate this. And, you know, and make it a lot more efficient, which will make it more, more cost effective, cheaper and, and raise the probability of success, you know, overall, the, the probability that any single, you know, pipeline or, or discovery program actually gets to an approved drug is pretty low.
It could be that lowest 5 percent in some, some fields, but, um, I think we’ll be getting a lot better at that because of all things we were just talking about today.
Naji Gehchan: What about innovation?
Michael McKeown: It’s it’s an amazing time, you know, and I think, you know, especially being in a hub place like like Boston where I’m surrounded by all the amazing research coming out of Harvard and M.
I. T. Um, you know, I’m working out of. Harvard Innovation Lab, there’s ShareSpace, and you’re getting to hear all the amazing ideas that people are coming up with, um, either from bootstrap effort out of academia or working with venture funds, um, this is truly an amazing time for innovation, and kind of, I think, an unprecedented leap for, for life sciences, and especially as we’re coming, being in 2024, coming out of kind of the investment lull, um, you know, things are really roaring back.
Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread love in organizations.
Michael McKeown: Yeah, um, you gotta lead with heart and you’ve got to care and. You know, you care about your people, care about your mission, you know, I’ve mostly worked in, in oncology and small molecule oncology space and, you know, reminding people that you’re not just, you know, running an experiment today, you’re, you’re potentially taking a step forwards towards, you know, giving somebody another, another Christmas with their family or, or, you know, giving them more time with the loved ones.
And we work in, you know, I work in the life sciences, this has impacts on human health. And, um, But at the same time, don’t just grind your people and use that to make them work harder. Love the people in your organization and love your mission.
Naji Gehchan: I love how you framed it, uh, from caring for your people. To caring for the patients we serve, because this is exactly why you wake up every morning in this industry. Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?
Michael McKeown: Um, you know, listen, be humble, and you never stop learning.
Just because you’re, you’re at the top, you still have opportunities for growth and learning, and that is a constant, lifelong process.
Naji Gehchan: Well, what a great way to end this conversation. Michael, it was such a pleasure to have you with me today. Thank you.
Michael McKeown: Thanks so much for having me on. This was a lot of fun.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this special episode in collaboration with MIT Sloan Healthcare and BioInnovations Conference, an event that brings the Healthcare Ecosystem Together. I have the pleasure to be joined by J.R. Clark, Senior Vice President of Health Plan Product and Strategy at Paytient Technologies, where he partners with thoughtful employers, insurers, and health systems to help people better access and afford healthcare. J.R. is a former Director and Actuary of Anthem, where he was known for his public exchange marketplace strategies and creation of alternative products in the Individual and Small Employer segments. He began his career as a nuclear engineer with Florida Power and Light in Juno Beach, Florida, where he developed optimization strategies for spent nuclear fuel. J.R. obtained a Bachelor of Science (BS) degree in Mechanical Engineering and completed graduate coursework in Nuclear Engineering from the University of Missouri-Columbia.
JR, so good to have you with me today!
JR Clark: That is great to be here. I appreciate you bringing me on.
Naji Gehchan: Before we dig in “removing financial barrier to care” the topic of your panel at SHBC, I am eager to hear more about your personal story. What brought you from nuclear engineering to healthcare and now solving this crucial issue of access and healthcare affordability?
JR Clark: great. I’ll give you a little background and it isn’t a typical transition, but I think what is typical for a lot of the guests on this, uh, is that, you know, People don’t always end up where they expected to be, which is what’s fun in life. So I guess a quick background, maybe I’ll go a little bit back or, you know, to young ages to kind of give a little bit of foundational story here.
Um, so when I was growing up, I was born and raised in St. Louis. I currently live in St. Louis and, you know, my, my parents owned a small business. And it was always interesting to see growing up as a child that, you know, my parents put a lot of their time and effort and energy into their company. And, and even within that, you know, my, my dad was always the person who rolled up his sleeves.
He was often like the, the dirtiest person at work, you know, coming in with the dirtiest clothes, doing the most dirty jobs. And, and he was always, and he was okay with that. Um, My mom was always the first person at work every day. She, you know, she’d get up at 2. 45 in the morning and head to work. And she was there all day.
She often worked, uh, very late. And I think kind of the lessons that they really demonstrated for my brother and I is that it takes a lot to get things done sometimes. And you have to really be willing to put in that extra work to do it. And sometimes you have to do that even when you don’t. You don’t like doing it because you look at the outcome of what it’s doing and, and, you know, invest as a consequence of that.
But I think also on top of that, my parents really spent a lot of time and, and really like focused on sending the message that you should never expect more of others than what you’re willing to do yourself. And that’s not just a talking point. It really is a, like a practice, not just a, Oh, I did that once.
And so now I expect others to do it all the time. It really is. Um, if I expect others to do it all the time. As employees, and I really need to be doing it all the time as well. And so really, those were key lessons informative for both my brother and me. And I guess maybe the 3rd thing that they were really demonstrated.
Well, is that somehow with all that, they really managed to stay involved in their church and with their friends, especially being intimate in their friends lives. And. Honestly, that there’s an art to that, like, of how you balance that. And admittedly, it’s something even today. I don’t think I do well. Um, so it really was a lesson that really, whatever your level of busyness is in life, like, there really is value in investing in others.
So they really kind of demonstrated that pretty well. Um, so anyway. My brother and I started working at their company at a very young age and like when I say young age, I mean, like, early elementary school, we did jobs like, you know, cleaning the office and the bathrooms and doing things like, you know, sitting with the adding machine and totaling up bills for people.
And I think that’s really where it kind of, like, I probably, I, my, my math side of things comes from is that starting with, you know, sitting in front of an adding machine and putting things together. So kind of fast forwarding from that, you know, my. I also happened to meet my wife at a young age. My wife and I met when we were in high school.
And, you know, she is a, she’s a very charismatic and caring person. And probably by now your listeners can tell I’m not a very charismatic person. And that’s why I’m an actuary right now. Um, but really like it was, it was really neat to see, like, She was the first person who I really spent a lot of time noticing how her actions of caring for others really, like it really caused a response from people because people really like to feel valued.
So when you value somebody, there’s a different response that you get from them because they are valued by you. And it’s not a manipulative valuing. It’s got to be a genuine value. And my wife really is good at that. Um, you know, and so I guess moving forward into college, you know, I, I am very fortunate in life that I had an older brother that actually wanted to be around me.
And he, you know, he’s incredibly intelligent. He’s very, very diligent and invests a lot in whatever he puts his mind to. And he headed towards being an engineer. I didn’t know what I wanted to do, so I just kind of followed in my brother’s footsteps and became an engineer as well. And, and really, like, In college, and I guess I’ll even say college and into my first job as being a nuclear engineer, there were a couple of things that were really impactful.
Um, that really is the first time in my life. And you think when you go through school, you’re kind of trained like to get from a point to a to point B in the most efficient manner. Like you sit in a math class and it’s like, these are your rules, use the rules and you get to a final result. And the reality of it is that in life.
You know, sometimes the right answer is to straight line from point A to B, but there are other times in life that while it may seem less efficient, there’s actually a lot of value in meandering between point A and point B. That’s actually where a lot of the like learnings and the discovery happens. And so, you know, that really was a valuable lesson learned it very much.
So both in college and in graduate school, and then definitely in my first job in nuclear engineering. So kinda here comes the, how does it. How does somebody go from being an engineer to being an actuary, uh, and the crossover into healthcare and everything on that front? Really what happened was, you know, we were working in Florida, in Juneau Beach, Florida, Florida Power and Light, and my wife and I, you know, we knew that we wanted to have a family.
We knew that we wanted to be near our family, and so we, we decided that we were going to move back to St. Louis. St. Louis, Missouri is not a hotbed of nuclear engineering jobs. And so, uh, you know, so basically I had to think through what, what would the future look like? I happened to be in a conversation with this woman who was like, Oh, my uncle was an actuary and she.
You know, he, she was saying he takes these tests and when he takes tests, he gets pay increases and promotions. And I was like, that sounds interesting. So I looked into it. The thought of it was great. I took my first test and then immediately jumped into consulting. And, and so I went to work for a company that’s now Willis Towers Watson.
At that point, it was called Watson Wyatt before all the mergers. And so really like. There was where I got my start in understanding what it was like to be in a fast paced kind of lifestyle of almost think of it as mile wide, foot deep, uh, type of information and I loved it because what, what we did in consulting really was around the idea of take little pieces of information.
And then figure out what to use of that to, to assimilate it into a package that is a value to somebody else. And, and what that did was it created a lot of like, I call them high five moments. They’re like the moments, the moments in a company where your team thinks that there’s no way possible to pull off a task.
And yet you continue to work together. You continue to kind of struggle together. You continue to, like, press and you get to this final state where you actually do it and you actually deliver something. And like, there’s just a satisfaction of the team. It’s that high five moment where you know that Collectively, you worked through something that you thought you couldn’t do.
And you got to a point of completion on it. And that’s been really like, that’s been really core. You know, you think about things that are like core memories or core experiences. Those high five moments are very core experiences. And I think they’re very motivated, motivating and inspirational for people who work, you know, in companies.
So all that being said, I loved consulting. I love the teamwork. I love the atmosphere of it, but I also realized, you know, at that point, Uh, I, no better way to say it than this. I didn’t think that I could be both a good consultant and a good dad simultaneously. And my son was on his way and, um, some people pull it off very well, but for my skill set, it, it was not something that I felt like I could balance well.
And so I needed to take a kind of a turn in my career and move to something that was a bit more stable. And so I moved into insurance, um, really kind of a big difference between think of consulting versus insurance is that in consulting. Like I said, it’s mile wide, foot deep. In insurance, it’s a whole bunch of tranches of foot wide, mile deep.
The NAU Insurance has the aggregated, like, efforts of a bunch of foot wide, mile deep people. And I was fortunate to get to be in a spot in my career in insurance where I got to take all of that deep knowledge of everybody who was doing that mile deep work, I got to aggregate it and make business decisions off of it.
And so it really was It was a cool spot to be in. It was a, I mean, just so it really was a wonderful place to be great people to work with. And there were a bunch of lessons that came out of that. You know, in terms of that environment, kind of lesson number 1 is that, you know, when you’re setting up a corporate structure, oftentimes it’s like, how do we trim redundancy?
You know, how do we how do we make things as lean as possible? But really, in the same way that there’s a value in meandering between point A and point B. There’s also value in redundancy, and I think that value that gets overlooked is the fact that when you have two people that have a portion of their task or a portion of their mindset that overlaps, what ends up happening there is that when two people can kind of bubble up together on, on some portion, it’s almost like a I don’t know, it’s almost like a nuclear fission situation where the, the end outcome is much bigger than the combination.
You know, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts or whatever you want to call it. And so I think we underestimate the value of redundancy in the typical corporate structure. Second lesson really from the insurance side of things is that good managers are not one size fit all. Like, you can take, take two people that report to the same people or under the same organization structure, and one person may hate a manager and the other person may love a manager.
And so it’s always interesting to evaluate, like, what is it that causes those differences? And I, I, I think, and this is a personal opinion, I don’t know if everybody would agree with it, but I think there’s value in having that where a manager isn’t trying to be one size fits all for everybody. So I think of two managers in particular, one of my favorite managers I ever had his name, Steve.
And he operated his business and his teams just like he was a basketball coach, 100 percent like a basketball coach. And he required a lot, he expected a lot, but in return, he would go to the mat for anybody that was on his team. Like once you earned the spot, like you knew you had somebody backing you up.
Now some people hated that, some people loved it. I personally loved it. And, but I can see why other people maybe wouldn’t, I think is fantastic manager. And then I, another manager is one of my most favorite managers. Her name is Jen. And she, she knew better than anybody I’ve ever worked with how to prioritize things such that for herself and her team, she made sure to let the things that weren’t a big deal, slip off the plate and focus energy and effort towards the things that were a big deal.
And I think what that did was kind of circling back to this whole idea of value. It made people realize that they were valued and they had the ability to contribute to the value of something, which was impassioning, you know, their, their ability to do well at their jobs. So, you know, and I think with all that, when you think about that, you know, it’s valuing what is important, not just to yourself, but to your team, even on a personal level, like valuing what’s important to them really does bring a positive outcome at the end of the day.
Like I flat out through my career, I’ve seen tons of examples of people who are working 60 hours a week and giving up on the things they valued outside of work, where, when we focused on saying what’s important to you on your time outside of work, like, Oh, you have Thursday night where you get together with your friends and you have pizza and you go somewhat go watch some show together like that’s important to you.
Well, don’t skip that because of work. And what ends up happening is having that extra value outside of work and feeling valued. Ends up producing more output and better experience and better mood, better, like feeling more loved and appreciated. It has positive consequences in the, the lesser hours that a person’s working because they walked away to go do that thing that they value outside.
So I love that. That was a great lesson in the, in a large organization in particular. Uh, kind of, I know I’m probably having on long, so I’ll say the last couple of things really quickly on this is that. You know, the last lesson I learned in insurance, it actually happened after I broke my leg. Uh, and my leg and my hip and ended up in the hospital.
I was ice skating with my daughter and unfortunately just took the wrong fall at the wrong place. And that was the first time I ever experienced firsthand what people feel when they’re in a moment of, of kind of a healthcare crisis. Um, and you know, I’m a very data driven person. I spent a lot of time in Excel or in data or working through making decisions off of data.
But And what oftentimes I don’t do well is to stop and think back, like, Oh my gosh, what is it that our. Our folks that we are serving, what are they experiencing and how does that impact like the overall ecosystem with what they’re experiencing? And so, you know, we, that was actually kind of illuminating in the sense of, you know, I’ll say, like, 1 day, we were sitting there going through some, some cost of care reports in a meeting and I realized that we didn’t ever spend any time focusing on members out of pocket costs.
We spent all of our times focusing on all of our time focusing on. Like the plan paid costs associated with healthcare. And I was, it was like a light bulb moment, like, man, we need to be focusing more on out of pocket because that’s the first thing that people experience. And because of that, like there’s a downstream impact that can happen.
And so ultimately the reason I left insurance is really because. I really want to focus on what we can do to help people get care at the right place, right time with the means to do it so that they’re prospectively thinking about care instead of retrospectively thinking about it. Because I think that the downstream consequence of that is healthier people who are able to make better decisions around what their health care should be.
And ultimately that has planned savings, which saves employers costs. It saves, you know, health insurers costs. Ultimately makes a better outcome. And then even the, the underlying thing of it is that health systems get paid for the services that they’re rendering. Like, there just is a net benefit that happens all downstream as a consequence of it.
So anyway, uh, I think that’s kind of the, the quick backdrop. So that’s why I’m at patient right now. It’s really honestly to help people. Access and afford care on that front line by basically giving them them the means to pay for that front line care.
Naji Gehchan: Well, what an inspiring journey and incredible story of of impact and what you’re doing today within your organization to help patients before we go.
To this specifically, because I really want us to, um, to talk about how you’re doing it within your company and the topic of the panel. You talked about high five moments. I love this concept. Any major, is there one leadership learning that helped you, that you used or help you get into those high five moments with your teams?
JR Clark: Yeah. So maybe I’ll, uh, yes, I’ll say leadership. Leadership way of doing it is honestly, it’s. Putting people in a spot where they are able to do what they do best. And maybe I’m going to sidestep it for a second and then bear with me. I’ll come back to answering it directly. I think in, in a leadership structure, we oftentimes fail to recognize that everybody isn’t going to be good at everything.
And, and what happens when you do that is that you’ve ended up putting people in spots where they’re more prone to either do something lackluster or even utterly fail at it. And I don’t think that’s a fair thing to do for folks. I don’t think that’s the right thing for them to position, put people in for your employees.
And so I think the step number one in it is doing projects and building, like building out solutions that fit with the skillset of the folks that you have. Sitting there on your team and not expecting more of the things that are outside of those skill sets. And then kind of part two of that is building teams where people have overlapping skill sets, but also independent skill sets.
So it allows them to kind of bring something to the table that nobody else is able to bring to the table in that team. And so I think that’s kind of the foundation of creating those high five moments and then frankly, like kind of the direct answer is I think life just tends to bring itself.
Situations that you can make high five moments out of as, as managers, as leaders, um, by really taking on things that. Maybe others hadn’t really focused on or finding like early on. Here is something of value that we’re really not yet putting our energy toward and let’s try and do something with it. So hopefully that answer what you’re.
Naji Gehchan: Yes, yes. And I love how you frame this. You know, I always talk about, I don’t think anyone in life wakes up not wanting to do a good job, but several times we have wrong casting. For the job. So it’s not about the person and their capabilities. It’s just like ground casting. And as leaders, we should be accountable for this, right?
And make sure that we’re getting the right people to be at their best in the right places. So if we now go into the panel’s discussion, this is obviously a very important issue we’re facing in healthcare, financial toxicity, financial barriers. Can you share first your thoughts about how to improve this?
How to even remove these barriers?
JR Clark: Yeah, so maybe I’ll, I’ll take it kind of from two sides for the answer. The first is maybe I’ll, I’ll talk a little bit about the MIT Sloan Healthcare and Bio Innovations Conference and kind of what the focus was of the specific panel. So the panel itself was comprised of, you know, a handful of folks from industry being direct insurance, but kind of alternative insurance products.
Uh, so there was a person named Allison from Shurist that was on there. Uh, there was a woman named Nikita who, uh, she was from Fortuna Health, which their, their mission is really to make the, uh, make the ability to, like, enroll in Medicaid a lot simpler for folks so that they get access to care, because in a lot of cases, people just don’t get access to care because They don’t know how to get through the process of enrolling something that would get in, in something that would get them access to care.
And then there’s a woman named Laura, who was there from Amazon, uh, Amazon pharmacy. And her focus was on how do you get, how do you get medications or drugs to people in an easier way for a cheaper price? And so that was kind of the backdrop of it all. And it’s kind of some unique perspectives in there, but also some overlapping perspectives.
And I think maybe I’ll start by saying, you know, the number one focus in all of it. Was how do you make sure that people know that they can get care in the 1st place? And so that’s that is step number 1 and all of this. So, whether it’s, you know, Amazon giving cheaper prices for drugs or whether it’s, you know, surest, uh, finding alternative health plan mechanisms so that people can get care, uh, with a lower out of pocket than what they otherwise would have been or whether it’s, you know, Fortuna actually just getting people enrolled in Medicaid in the 1st place or as patient, you know, my company.
Making sure that when people are exploring getting care and they’re going to have an out of pocket component that they make the right choice because they have the ability to pay. And so I think all that kind of combines just to say, like, there’s an underlying structure here where it’s almost like trying to take mentality and say, like, I don’t, I don’t want care to just happen to me.
Instead, I want to be able to think through and act on my own behalf and be an advocate for myself. In actually getting care taken care of when I need care. So I know from the patient side of things, we see all the time. Like I’ll, I’ll take another sidestep here and sorry, again, more blabbing. But you know, we, when the company was formed, we had the hypothesis that people weren’t getting care because.
Like, oh, shoot, I have a 3, 000 bill at the hospital that I’m going to have to pay, and so I’m not going to get care, or I already had care, and I have to pay 3, 000, and I don’t know how I’m going to pay for it. The reality of it is, you know, 5, 6 years into it, what we actually see is that, like, people need help getting routine care.
They need help for specialist visits, the 70 copay for a specialist visit, or the 50 pay for an urgent care, or even, no joke, like, How do you spread out the cost of a 10 copayment at the pharmacy? Like, that’s a legitimate need of the population right now. And there’s a lot that happens on that side of things solely because people don’t have that prospective ability to know that they can get care.
And so I think that’s kind of the underlying theme of the, the panel discussion at the conference, but it’s also the underlying theme of what all the companies represented there are trying to achieve.
Naji Gehchan: So as you discuss this, and obviously your, your company is focused on improving this, should we be hopeful that we will see less financial toxicity in the next decade?
JR Clark: Yeah, that’s a great question. And the answer to me is yes. No. And, and the reason I’d say we should be hopeful is because there’s a lot of focus being put on this. And maybe the way to say it best is, you know, you hear the cliché phrase of, like, creating win win wins, right? People say that all the time.
But the reality of it is that, like, number one, the foundational structure of our healthcare system is good. The intentions of the people operating it are good, like, I’ll give a quick example that my mom, you know, she had lung cancer and had to have part of her lung removed. And we were, we were sitting in this, there’s like a special waiting room for people who are having more serious surgeries.
And unfortunately, one of the other families that was sitting in the waiting room, they got the notification, like, while we were sitting there, that their family member didn’t make it through surgery. And I walked out of that waiting room. And when I walked out of the waiting room, there was no joke. 80 80 staff members of that hospital lining the hallway to kind of, for lack of better words, I’ll say, call it provided like a processional for that family as they left and these hospital administrators were in tears.
These doctors, nurses were in tears and you can’t look at a situation like that and say, health care is broken when that many people are showing up to work every day with that much care. And so that gives me hope that number one, our health system at its core is right. Uh, you, you won’t ever hear me say, you know, healthcare is broken, but what there is with inside of our healthcare system, there are little nuances or little inefficiencies and.
Like, when we talk about creating win win wins, what we, what we want to be doing in the healthcare system is inserting different solutions in each of those inefficiencies, so that we push out whatever is creating that inefficiency. I think from patients side of things, we see that paying, like, the kind of barrier to care that is paying for it, that creates downstream impacts.
We have 67 percent of our members that say that they would have, Deferred or foregone the care that they got, had they not had access to pay for to pay for their care with their patient cards. That creates a downstream inefficiency for the system. So just by plugging this little hole there of helping people pay for care.
People take their medications that reduces cardiovascular events in the health, you know, in, in the hospitals, people go see their specialists. They like, they do what they need to be a little bit more proactive in the health side of things. And so I think from your kind of direct answer to your question, am I hopeful?
Absolutely. Because I do think that we’re seeing like a little turn in the tide. Of just plugging more of those little inefficiencies in the system to help solve them.
Naji Gehchan: Oh, thanks for sharing this and hope your mom, uh, is doing okay. Yeah, all great. Yeah. Thank you. Great to hear. Um, so as you’re, I love how you framed it into kind of plugging some small solutions that will have a larger impact at the end of the day, like really tearing it down to some small inefficiencies and making it better.
So a question on this, do you, do you believe that the technology by itself will help us improve financial, uh, you know, toxicities over here to care, or do you think there is still a big social question about how do we think about healthcare, you know, and I’m biased, I’m coming from, you know, like coming from France, where we think healthcare is a human right and like there’s a lot of discussions about how we do healthcare and I’m not saying that we don’t have issues we have actually probably even more issues than here but certainly finance from a patient experience is very different.
Patients do not think about it. The society thinks about it from another perspective. So I’m intrigued. How do you see this? Is, is it technology that will solve it? Do you think there is still a social component to it? And how, how will all this be resolved in the next decades?
JR Clark: Yeah, so I don’t know how it will be resolved, but here’s here’s my hopeful guess and all of it.
Um, I think that we have the good fortune as a society in the United States that we’re starting to see all of the parties that kind of have a hand in In like, call it the, call it the, um, I don’t want to say reconstruction, but the, like, improvement of the system, all the price, whether it’s health systems or health insurers or employers who have benefits that they provide for employees, uh, financing mechanisms.
Like, everybody is starting to kind of come together with a little bit more realization of, oh, yeah, if a happens, it produces B result. B result if, you know, is either going to have. You know, a bad C outcome or a good D outcome and, like, starting to understand that there’s some binary decisions here that all kind of have a downstream impact that are either going to make things better or worse.
And fortunately, like, you know, I know in the red, like, when you were opening, like, we talk about patient working with thoughtful thoughtful partners. We’re partnered with nearly every major health insurer now, because health insurers are recognizing, like, oh, man, paying for frontline cost of cost of care.
Is an issue for a lot of people, and that has downstream impact. And so they’re working towards a solution by partnering with us. Hospital systems are realizing that they’re kind of their distribution of kind of on collectible debt, or whatever you want to call it process. It’s not working right now, and so they’re partnering with solutions like us to help kind of fix that employers are starting to see, like, man, I’ve been raising my deductibles for my employees as a cost offset.
But now it’s really starting to have an impact. So what can we do to help fix that? And, and so just kind of the fact that all of the stakeholders that should be thinking about it are thinking about it and should be acting on it. Are acting on it. I really do feel like that component is really a valuable thing.
Now, I guess maybe towards the social, like, the pure social question, like, if you start thinking about even from the government standpoint, even if you look at, like, um, Medicare Part D, you know, under the inflation reduction act, we just have the, the, you know, the passing and implementation of what’s going to be a payment plan.
For every single senior who is on a part D drug drug plan to be able to spread their costs, their out of pocket costs over time, it gets that same type of kind of kind of mechanism. So I feel like there is a social component, and it is kind of nice that that several folks are partnering in the solution.
Naji Gehchan: Well, that’s that’s great. And I really want to go back to something you shared, having either like you and other leaders in the healthcare system. We all strive and wake up every morning to make life better for patients. And I think this is something that is super important and starts with leadership, right?
All of us around the table trying to make the right decisions on behalf of patients, because all of us are patients at one point. So thanks, thanks for bringing those ideas here. I want to move now into a section where I’ll give you a word. And I want your first reaction to it. Okay. So the first one is leadership.
JR Clark: Okay, so first reaction. Um, maybe I’ve, I’ll repeat a little bit of what I said, but maybe with a little different nuance to it. Is that leadership, I, I’ll say it this way. Leadership doesn’t have to be thought of as hierarchy. Um, leadership, leadership is best when a leader is involved. They’re caring, they’re empathetic.
Okay. But they’re also very maniacally focused on what the end result is, uh, what, like, what the conclusion should be. And, and I guess when I think of leadership, I think of, like, again, like I pointed out the two leaders earlier with Steve and Jen. And they are people that balance that very, very well, um, setting expectations, valuing their teams, and understanding that, like, you all either win together or you lose together.
And and I really appreciate that side of things when I think of leadership. So that’s maybe a short and sweet answer. But yeah, we can go from there. What about health equity? And so when I think health equity, I think of it in terms that, you know, when somebody wakes up in the morning, whoever it is. They shouldn’t have to fear the idea, or they shouldn’t, let me say it, they shouldn’t have to have to make a different decision than somebody else based upon, uh, whether or not they can pay for care.
And so what I mean by that is, if, let’s simple example, if my throat hurts in the morning, like, if I, I have a high fever. Uh, the difference like I shouldn’t have to act differently in terms of my ability to seek care because of of my financial means in that moment. And so if I need to get a, I need to get a strep test and a antibiotic, I should be able to get that whether I am a person who has the means immediately or does not have the means immediately.
And, and so I think about that as kind of the concept of removing barriers to care. That really is the core function of removing barriers to care.
Naji Gehchan: I love this pragmatic example. It’s, it’s really a powerful way to think about it. The third one is work life balance.
JR Clark: Yeah, so that’s it. Uh, that’s multiple words there.
Uh, so work life balance. Admittedly, I’m a massive fan of work life balance. Um, I gave the example before I I’ve had multiple teammates where at the onset they were working, call it 60 ish hours a week, but by producing more, I I’ll give one example. I had a teammate, somebody on my team who. Um, she was working like 60 hours a week, and we set a goal to prioritize things outside of her life, get her work down to 40 hours a week.
And she inherently was somebody who, it’s already a two X producer. So when she works 60 hours a week, we were getting 120 hours of productivity out of her. Unbelievable person. And we worked to get her down to 40 hours a week by prioritizing things outside of work. And she did, she was able to get down to call 40, 45 hours a week, but no joke.
There was zero difference in the amount of productivity that happened within work, zero difference. In fact, like in some places, she actually like had more inspiration to step up and take on new responsibilities and new ownership that she otherwise wouldn’t have when she was buried in her. For 60 hours a week.
So I, I, at my core am a massive fan of work life balance. I know it’s idealized in some cases, but I think it’s something that we should as leaders really promote and really focus on because I think we undervalue the ability for folks to feel valued outside of work. And what that does. Uh, and how it produces a net positive result inside of work.
So, and back to kind of the stuff we talked about earlier, uh, it’s, there’s just such a, there’s such a value in valuing people and, and just like we all want to feel valued too. We feel better when we feel valued. So,
Naji Gehchan: yeah, it’s, it’s probably a perfect segue to my last word, which is spread love and organizations.
Uh, there you go.
JR Clark: Yes, that’s exactly right. I mean, your, your concept is, is absolutely amazing and it’s absolutely spot on. And, and I think of it all the way from like even deep examples of like, so I’m a father of two children and my son and my daughter were raised in the same environment. They are, but they’re vastly different people, vastly different people.
And. And like the way that they see a situation, they respond to it differently because of kind of being different, different people. And that’s true inside of an organization as well. And that two different teammates could respond to the exact same situation in a different way. And as leaders, when we think about spreading love in our organizations, it is a matter of being able to say, like.
I understand that two people are not going to respond in the same way, and I have to understand, like, I have to, I have to know that that’s okay, and I have to know that that different response is what produces better outcomes than if we always had everybody responding in the same manner. Back again to the meandering thing at the very beginning, there’s There is value in discovery.
There’s value in that meandering in life, and there’s value in the, in the different responses and perspectives of people.
Naji Gehchan: Certainly. Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?
JR Clark: Man, uh, uh, maybe I don’t want to call this a word of wisdom, but Every single day, I am continuously reminded that there are so many people out there that are way more competent than I am, that are way smarter than I am, that are way more, like, infinitely better at things than I will ever be.
And giving people the freedom and flexibility to use that, Produces such great outcome and stifling that produces such, I guess, such the ant antithesis of it. Like there’s nothing that’s more of a poison in an organization than not allowing people to to thrive with with their own talents.
Naji Gehchan: Wow, J. R. This is such an amazing way to finish up our discussion. Thank you so much for joining me today and for this great shot.
JR Clark: Thank you. I really appreciate having the conversation with you. Thank you for the opportunity.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to Spread Love, an organization podcast. More episodes summarizing the MIT Sloan Healthcare and Bioinnovation Conference are available on spreadloveio.com or wherever you get your podcast. Follow us to get our most recent episodes and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: JR Clark first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Joubin Hatamzadeh Chief Operating Officer at Greentown Labs, a community on a mission to solve the climate crisis through entrepreneurship and collaboration. Prior to joining Greetown Labs, Joubin served as the Head of Operations and Administrative Services at French Tech Hub, where he led a team that helped international technology companies expand and succeed in the US market. He has also worked at MDL Corporation and NeuroRx Research.
Joubin, it is so great to have you with me today!
Joubin Hatamzadeh: Naji. Pleasure is mine.
Naji Gehchan: I would love first to hear more about your personal story and what’s in between the lines of your inspiring journey.
Joubin Hatamzadeh: Fantastic. So, uh, my personal story is I don’t want to go too back that I wanted to be, you know, cowboy or Superman when I was a kid, but, uh, I always, you know, I had the desire to.
To go to medicine and engineering was something really, uh, something that aspired at some point. So I ended up studying biomedical engineering. Um, I was born and raised in Iran. So, uh, I, uh, I, you know, got the opportunity to get a bachelor’s degree in biomedical engineering back in Iran. And working the medical devices company right after the school, but always wanted to explore the world.
And, uh, learn new things and kind of stretch my boundaries. So, I pursued my graduate degree in Canada. In the same discipline and, uh, joined, uh, a lab, which is affiliated to the school that I got my master’s degree and then there was a spinoff. That that’s been up was a startup company that I really enjoyed being part of the team.
1st, few employees to get a lot of things done from setting up the office to be the project manager to be the. Person who’s also 1 of the people who was analyzing the images for multiple sclerosis. Uh, servicing to, uh, uh, but they can form a company. Uh, to, to serve the humanity on, uh, basically on, um, clinical trials, and then I pursued my, I pursued my heart, which was my, my girlfriend at the time, who’s my wife now, uh, was at business school in Philadelphia, wanted to be with her and, uh, found an opportunity that was also enticing to me.
And that was joining manufacturing company, so you may not find correlation between what I studied at a manufacturing company in a lighting environment and then the lighting industry, but it’s all about the transferable skills. And using basically something like the concept search certain disciplines and engineering that you can apply.
So, I joined this, this company, um, being the head of quality control. And, uh, that that that was really, really. Uh, Energizing to me and motivating, because I could solve problems. Uh, things that I could not even imagine that. That that I could know from smaller things to. From small things to kind of a bigger thing, but it’s saving, you know, companies.
Uh, costs improvements, uh, improving the teams and so on and then, um, so all of these have been kind of entrepreneurial. Environment that I work at and at some point, we decided to move to Boston. After my wife finished the program, I joined the consulting company. And I also found a boutique consulting business, which was a subsidiary of a French government supported entity.
And that was basically my journey with a company initially called in France and then optic 21 and finally changed to a French tech hub and, uh, joined as a business developer for life sciences. And, uh, grew into operations, led basically the, uh, designed and led the operations, uh. And administrative services that we’re serving over 100 French clients and focused in, uh, technology.
And then, uh, you know, spending 11 years in that company, the company. Was sold that that business division was sold to an accounting firm and that was basically a moment for me to realize that what I want to. To next with my life, because I was not an accountant and I was looking for a kind of a different.
Type of work and, uh, and, uh, I joined green. Basically, the opportunity that I found at that time as the operations hit the. Hit the check mark. So what inspires me? Um, one of them is. Has been the opportunity to learn and do things that I did not have any background necessarily in area that has been created seemed creative for me and I had the ability to problem solve.
Be with smart people and also be working with people who are good people and, you know, by the time that I joined, what was at the end of the day important to me at that point. I had to 2 little children were. Now, uh, older, but, uh, what is the story that I want to tell my children. That’s what I do and what kind of impact the work I do as.
And, you know, now working in the environment, the impact is very obvious to everybody, and it’s not deniable that this is something to saving the future for our children and the generations after that, and being better people, not destroying the earth further.
Naji Gehchan: Wow. Thank you so much, uh, VIN for this inspiring, uh, journey and several things. So I have different questions for you, uh, sure. Going from here. So, um, you were born, raised in Iran. You left, you lived in several countries, uh, and I felt throughout your focused on impact. So how, it’s interesting you started in healthcare.
The majority of, um, our listeners here are healthcare, uh, leaders, uh, so, uh, focused on this purpose of making life better. And obviously now what you’re doing is exactly this from, uh, in a large scale of making, making the world better, uh, from, uh, from the climate crisis we’re living. I would love to hear your, your personal journey, what you took from those different experiences and different parts of the world from, uh, Where you were born to where you are today.
Uh, what, what is kind of the key life lesson you take with you to lead today, your teams, uh, in your company today and, and other experiences you had?
Joubin Hatamzadeh: Uh, thank you. I would say two things. Number one, um, going back to, you know, to the fact that my father is an architect and I was just, uh, following him to, you know, going, going to, to his office.
After school for a change, or sometimes to the construction site, just observing, seeing, enjoying to see that how things are being made following this conversation that I had no clue what it was about, but with the, with the builders, with the masons, with the welders, et cetera. So, I, I knew that, you know, there is a lot of interest in learning things and doing right.
And at some point in my life, it was during the summertime. I was 11. We had a neighbor in the. In a countryside when we had a place. And, uh, our neighbor happened to be an architect and he was making sitar instrument. That was basically my introduction to, uh, an Iranian musical instrument. And it was a summertime, I stayed with them and I became his apprentice, just watching him doing wood, uh, uh, making instrument.
And I was helping, you know, here and there. And, and later on, I realized that, you know, I learned some carpentry. I learned this and that. Um, Uh, somebody at some point told me that listen, it doesn’t matter what you have learned. At some point, those skills become useful and I always believe in that. So, you know, transferable skills.
I think it’s one of the most important things. Uh, in life that we have to invest and the curiosity is very important and, uh, focus is important, but curiosity is important that, okay, what you’re exposed to, uh, what we can learn because we never know where life takes us. And we try to predict life, but sometimes it works.
Sometimes it doesn’t work. And all of those become handy at some points. So that’s I really believe in now, but the, the other points that, you know, 1 is the transferable skills and the other points, um, I blank on my 2nd question. Would you be kind to to repeat your question? 1 more time?
Naji Gehchan: Sure. So looking at key life lessons you take from your experiences being born in a country, traveling and living in other experiences.
Now I got
Joubin Hatamzadeh: it. Now I got it. The other point is how to deal with uncertainty, which can be nerve wracking. And it happens in work and happens in life. And the lesson was, uh, I was born a few years before the Iranian Revolution, so you can calculate my age very easily. And, uh, as I was in the period that I know what was going around me, uh, there was a war between Iran and Iraq.
And at some point, uh, I remember that Both countries were bombarding each other, so there was an airstrike both ways, and you’re just going to shelter, and there was no shelter. The shelter was the basement of the building we were. So we could live after an explosion, or we’d never know that it was going to impact us or not.
So that was a big point of uncertainty, right? And there was no escape. I had to live there. We had to live there. My parents, my father had to go to work. And I had to go to school. So that was one big point of uncertainty. And then those kinds of airstrikes stopped and then they relaunched by sending missiles, which you couldn’t even expect.
There was no siren sometimes. So you would hear an explosion and then it was a change moving from a company country to another country. So I did it. You know, twice in my life, once from Iran to Canada and the other one from Canada to the US. So everywhere you go, there is an adaptation. There is a cultural adaptation.
There is something that you take in, you have to really, uh, contemplate, you have to adapt, digest. So the key lesson in life is, uh, being flexible and learning to, to deal with uncertainty. And I think that at certain points. I’ve been successful to do that, and sometimes I’ve not been successful to do that.
And I could see that, you know, during the pandemic. It became very handy to me that. I was overseeing team. That the work was tied to the physical space. And physical space became a concern because people were working from home. But at Greentown Labs, which is a climate tech incubator, and we have lab space, desk space, desk got very low occupancy during the pandemic.
Everybody was working from home, but lab was a space that People need it and they could not do those kind of work at homes. So we needed to keep the space safe and I had to basically find kind of a meaningful work to retain my team and keep them also motivated and inspired during a very uncertain and dark.
Naji Gehchan: Oh, thank you so much. Uh, I unfortunately relate to part. Of your story with living war as a child, as you know, um, and really, I love how you frame the key lessons from learning from uncertainty and keep on pushing and moving forward and making an impact as you’ve done. Um, when you talked about, uh, the, what you’ve done with your teams to keep them, uh, Safe, motivated, and literally building tech, that changed the word.
I’m intrigued. How did you do that? Was there like a special recipe? Now looking back, you say, okay, this is what I’ve done that helped them do it well. And that you will replicate next time. And comparatively, is there something you would do differently?
Joubin Hatamzadeh: Certainly, so number 1 thing, I think that, you know, pandemic has taught us a lot of things and 1 of the key takeaways from pandemic.
Was the entity, so I realized that entities very, very important at this point. And being mindful of people, because they are going to a really, really major thing and it sounded and felt apocalyptic for
all of us or the majority of us. In the entire world, so connection with the team was very important for me. From day 1, when I joined, because I was initially heading the operations team and the operations team consisted of people from different. Uh, you know, disciplines working in different functions.
Somebody was running the facility. The other 1 lab, the other 1 front desk reception. Another person doing administrative, even though they were in the same group or team, but their work was completely different. Their lingo may not. Be the same, so, uh, so early on, I, I realized that connectivity. To. Between the team is very important.
So I started having kind of a daily standing meetings. And it was literally standing, so we’re standing around the circle and people were sharing, you know, what they want to do on daily basis and came up with kind of a cadence and the cadence was, you know, on Mondays, we share. What is the goal for the week and every day we touch base that, you know, what are what’s on my mind or what kind of help I need or what are the challenges and on the end, at the end of the day, at the end of the week.
Thanks so much. Was basically sharing the accomplishments that can celebrate all together. So that helped us because that keep us going. Kept us connected every single day that we reduced it, but being very much in touch with every person in my team and try to understand, try to be flexible. There was a, you know, enormous level of anxiety because, you know, when I’m overseeing the physical space, it’s under my purview.
I can’t excuse myself that. Oh, sorry. I’m a family. I can’t come to this. I had to come to this. And you would see people who are to wear mask deniers to people who were religious about masks. And you had to keep a balance. You had to really. Uh, work it out that, you know, people have to be compliant, but actually they are also your customers.
And you had to basically support the team to do to do the same thing. And some people are not comfortable. Bye bye. So, you know, my presence was very important to prove that I’m with the team. Um, um, you know, there’s no excuse. I would put myself on the same location as the team to be together. Uh, we’re problem solving.
With each other, and I realize that it doesn’t matter. You’re the leader or you are a manager. At some point, you are 1 of the team members. And every input is important because people can bring a lot of value that that was really, really proven pretty well. And the other thing that was very important was, you know, in a growing company, you have a lots of ambitions, but you never have time focus or bandwidth to, to have a lot of things that you hope you could have done.
You know, but what we did, I realized that, oh, there’s something called policies and guidelines. That we have been lacking, and that was my idea since I joined. We never had the. Chance to, uh, you know, uh. Obviously, it’s at that point with our with our clients. So, what we did was, you know. I asked the team to to work together and build that it was a little bit difficult.
In the beginning, people had to get into that pattern, but when they warmed up, they enjoyed it. They enjoyed it and that became a huge accomplishment because at the end of the day, it’s sold pretty well and that became kind of a. Like a guideline for, uh, managing the space, answering questions to our members for the users of the space or customers and people saw something rewarding.
And it was also show them the capability that. Okay, you know, you don’t work in the space, but your work can be still meaningful and you can share this accomplishment something that. You may not even think that you were doing this job, but you, you can do it. Uh, and it created kind of bonding between the team.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you for that. Now I would love to talk a little bit about sustainability, climate crisis, uh, those topic you’re heavily working in and bringing new tech through entrepreneurship. Can you first tell us a little bit more how you would approach this topic? How
Joubin Hatamzadeh: I approach this topic? Definitely, you know, I would say that, it’s.
Uh, I would say the way I would see a climate change and climate entrepreneurs and, uh, what I see now that may be in the view of many people, right? You know, sustainability is a big topic, right? And maybe my focus goes into the entrepreneurship based on what you’re thinking about is there are a lot of motivated people, a lot of, uh, creative people, uh, That they, they, they want to make an impact and their work is really.
Addressing climate change and environmental. Issues that’s within the purview or under the umbrella of sustainability. Right. And, you know, 10 years back when green town lab was created, I just use green town labs as kind of a reference point. For what I what I try to to make if you go to to to that space and you’ll see that people are, you know, somebody is building a balloon to take a generator.
Up in the air, because at certain altitude, there’s always wind to capture the wind to generate power on the spot for places that there’s no, uh, you know, access to power and you’re not burning something carbon based to pollute the environment, sounded something really cool, right? The question was, how do you make money?
Where do you sell it? And there were hopes and wishes. So they were like the surviving artists. that you passed by said that this guy is so talented, amazing, but how does he live? How does he make a living, right? So investment and, uh, the focus on environments or did this kind of work was like that, looking at them as surviving artists.
Uh, but, but now after the Paris agreements and also the awareness, the global awareness about, you know, Uh, seriously, we are in a critical situation with the climate and we see the evidence of the climate change every day. And some people are more, I mean, they, they look long term that you have seen waterfalls.
You have seen. Uh, you know, uh, woods, you have seen places that you enjoyed and you wish that your Children, your grandchildren, their Children, et cetera, would enjoy the same thing. And you don’t want to see that the quality of nature declines. Which has impact on a lot of things from food. From vegetation from ecosystems.
And also the life you’re going, we’re going to experience. So, you see that, you know, the investment, the government focus has, has come through this way. And now, you know, investors are looking at climate tech companies more seriously. The way they’ve been looking in biotech or life sciences. So I say correlation because you pointed out that I worked in life sciences.
That has a good will in it and now in environment and there is some similarities that at least solving some fundamental problem. Related to human, right? Because we are selfish enough that. Whenever we talk about the environment, the interest of human being is there is not just the interest of, you know, sky or soil or water by itself.
It has a use for human being. So we are trying to address that. At that point as well, but in general, we work with a lot of, uh. Inspiring and creative people, which is a definition of a lot of entrepreneurs that you see in different sectors. that they really believe in what they do and they really believe in making the world more sustainable and you know it puts you if you work with these people over time even though If you, you are not a believer or you, you, you have kind of a rigid mindset, it puts you in kind of a growth mindset to, to really learn, explore and view things differently and be more mindful.
Naji Gehchan: And I’m sure they giving you hope. So that, that’s my question to you. Is there hope you said, you said at the very beginning, you’re trying, like you used a word that really stayed here in my head about climate, uh, kind of slowing the degradation or trying to stop the degradation. So my question to you is, is there hope?
We will make real strides toward a better, more sustainable world.
Joubin Hatamzadeh: Yes. Yes. And we know you, the people has asked, okay, you’re talking about bunch of entrepreneurs, bunch of startup companies that they’ve Do cool things, right? Some of them don’t escape or some of them are being acquired. Some of these businesses are being, you know, getting over.
That’s true. And what is the impact of the 9 employee company in Massachusetts over East Asia, West Asia, you know, South America, Antarctica, et cetera. Maybe nothing. But when you look at number one, That population of these entrepreneurial entrepreneurs are growing. The whole focus, and then also. Because of them, because of the area of innovation, something that brings money, something that brings inspiration, something that.
It is just, you know, all these forces are also shaping some of the larger companies. To definitely look into these companies, acquire them. Adapt and change their perspective that is really enormous, right? You know, sometimes, uh, people may say that, you know, the category of, uh, corporations, for example, oil and gas.
That has been under criticism, right? Uh, you know, you can’t just say that, you know, those companies are, uh, doing, doing only bad things because if you, you can put, put all, you know, every type of company in one bucket, you see that, uh, they’re, they’re, they’re doing some, some, some great things. And some of them are really helping to change and, you know, think away just from the fossil fuel, invest in a renewable energy.
So we say that it’s a step at a time. And those steps matter. And the great thing is, uh, sometimes I think we are impatient and we we want to achieve the answer right away. But if you look back 10 years ago, 15 years ago, we have seen that we have come a long way, right? Awareness has been made. Now the investment is being made, you know, acquisition, adaptation, all those things are being made.
There are a lot are being figured out. And, you know, think about other technologies 20 years ago, 30 years ago, there were skepticism skepticism around them. There were big questions about them. Some suddenly boom collapsed. But overall, it changed to where we are now. And I see the same thing about sustainability industry.
In the long run, I don’t think there is a point of return. It’s a point of no return, technically. It just forward,
Naji Gehchan: which is, which is great for, for all of us and for the future generations as I said, I’m going to give you now a word, and I would love a reaction to it, whatever first come to mind. The first one is leadership.
Joubin Hatamzadeh: That’s a good one because that’s the one that I try to have a definition for myself.
Definitely leadership is something to be able to inspire, motivate, and help moving forward.
Naji Gehchan: The second one is greenwashing.
Joubin Hatamzadeh: It’s a bad thing. You’re faking something. And it’s a bad intention. It has bad outcome.
Naji Gehchan: So if I flip this around, And double click on it. What is your biggest ask for leaders today from a social impact aspect? Whatever industry we’re in, what is your biggest ask for us to make real important good strides towards a more sustainable world?
Joubin Hatamzadeh: Be genuine, be intentional, because you know, to make this sustainability move forward, Uh, you know, to to get where we all desire. It gets, uh, it’s to it, it requires a lot of commitment, a lot of work, uh, not not giving up. So, and really, really, you need to put a lot of efforts in that and be very, very genuine about what you do.
Because people it works out when you’re genuine people see that and believe you and follow you and they, you know, you, you have more buying and the other bond that that I said, you know, in addition to that, be intentional. It is very important. I can give leadership. And then other things, I think it works pretty well.
Naji Gehchan: The third one is sitar.
Joubin Hatamzadeh: So sitar is the indian instrument and sitar s e t a r uh is the one that I play and uh,
it’s like love and kind of
You know something that you would it’s it’s a medium of conversation to to express your heart
Naji Gehchan: What a great segue to my last word spread love and organizations
Joubin Hatamzadeh: spread love in organization. It’s fantastic. Yes
Naji Gehchan: Any reaction to it?
Joubin Hatamzadeh: Yeah, it’s very important. It is very important. Uh, spread loving to any organization. I think is, is something that I, that I really relates because at the end of the day, uh, uh, during a pandemic being in a very, uh, you are, you have been to bring down lab. You have seen the space. People enjoy visiting the space.
People enjoy working here. It’s cool. It’s nice. It’s vibrant. But when the pandemic happened. I felt very depressed every day I came because the energy was not the same. It was felt like Sunday evening that the occupancy was 1 or 2 people. Rather than over 400 or 500. On a daily basis, right? So, I realized at that point that.
You know, in an incubator you don’t have intellectual property, you have a lot of assets. Now what’s the meaning of these assets when nobody’s using it? You know, even for a month or two months, you have to pay a lot, you know, for hvac, electricity, and all those things. For who and for what and what. What’s important at that point is you would be able to.
Uh, keep something that is meaningful and that is personal and the team. So the team was the biggest asset in my opinion. Even though the company doesn’t have, you know, intellectual property, that is the biggest intellectual property. How can you keep people in place? You know, people are incentivized, but incentive money becomes a number and people adapt their lifestyle to, to that number and.
But it’s not a long term motivator. Work is the type of work they do is motivator, but the human connection is another motivator, and love describes it pretty well. Love, affection, empathy. They work all hand in hand and create kind of a stronger human connection.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, Joobin, for leaders around the world?
Joubin Hatamzadeh: Your job is asking really, uh, uh, difficult
I think being empathetic is very important.
Having empathy is important, and be intentional about that.
Naji Gehchan: Uh, Joobin, you broke, so I’m gonna re ask the question, and if you can give me the answer again. It just broke, I didn’t hear it, actually. Okay, can you hear me?
Joubin Hatamzadeh: Sorry, but that Internet connection I would say that, uh, uh, have empathy have empathy is very, very important. You know, business is important mission is important. Responsibility is important, but, uh, as long as you work with human beings. As for a leader,
uh, I think any manager level for any person working with. Any other individual. That’s the important factor.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much for this great conversation, this inspiring chat. Thank you for joining me from the lab itself. Uh, and this is, uh, labs are always moving people, as you said. So this is why from time to time, I know, uh, you were moving also around some of the discussions and the lively things happening in the lab.
So thank you so much for your time. I know you’re. Doing great things and super busy to make sure that our children and our grandchildren will have a better word and a better earth. So thanks for being with me again today.
Joubin Hatamzadeh: It was a real pleasure and thank you so much.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this special episode in partnership with ESCP Business School and its specialized Masters in Pharma and Biotech Management. I am joined today by Clarissa Gorin a pharmacist and ESCP alum. Following her initial professional experience focusing on the blockchain industry and the fight against counterfeit medicines in developing countries, Clarissa joined Ad Scientiam in 2020 as Head of Medical Affairs. Ad Scientiam, a MedTech company originating from the Paris Brain Institute, specializes in developing digital biomarkers that enable the monitoring and prediction of the progression of certain neurodegenerative pathologies and rare diseases. These innovative markers are derived from proprietary algorithms for measuring precise analysis movements, vocal activity, or image processing derived from smartphone sensors and AI technologies.
Clarissa, It’s great to have you with me today!
Clarissa Gorin: Yeah. Well, thank you for the invitation and for the great introduction and, uh, the opportunity to, to share my professional experience and, uh, insights in the medtech, uh, sector, which, um, I hope will be useful to, to others.
Naji Gehchan: I’m sure it will. So before we go into this passion you have since, uh, early on about innovative tech and now AI that became a big subject. Can you first tell us more about your personal story, uh, why becoming a pharmacist, now being a leader in this edge of tech innovation and healthcare?
Clarissa Gorin: Yeah. Well, sure.
Thanks for the question. So I think, well, I come from a family of, uh, doctors, so like the health, uh, sector was always a subject when I started to, to look for different, um, well, specialization and, and, um, well, um, uh, formation. Uh, so it all started quite classically, uh, with this, uh, pharmacy, uh, sector, uh, from which I chose, uh, the industry sector.
Um, I wanted first, uh, to build a career in the pharmaceutical marketing, uh, but much more related to the drug, uh, industries. And, um, with my first Pharmacy diploma in hand, I joined this, uh, ESCP, a master of science, um, specialized in pharmaceutical and biotech, um, management. Um, for me, it was very interesting because the, the pharmacy sector is very, offers a wide range of, um, professional, um, path, uh, such as hospital, uh, city based pharmacy and industry.
Um, so for me, who wasn’t very sure about, uh, what type of, um, well, Pathway I wanted to embrace. It was interesting to have such a different options. Um, but very quickly, uh, doing the, the ESCP master of science, I was, um, quickly offered the first, uh, opportunity, uh, professional opportunity, um, which. Can we say diverted me from this classic path of marketing and in pharma?
As I joined the entrepreneurial adventure, uh, doing the master with some former classmates from the faculty of pharmacy who were launching this, uh, by a blockchain, uh, technology project that you were talking about, um, with the ambitious aim to fight, uh, fake drugs in sub Saharan Africa. Um, so yeah, well, I believe that, uh, it was very interesting.
It was much more related to, you know, uh, public health, uh, consideration and despite my knowledge in the, well, drug system, drug, uh, distribution process, I was, you know, Immediately confronted with a new challenges, um, both in terms of, you know, understanding a new technology, the blockchain, uh, which was very famous in that hand and also a major, um, cultural differences, um, in a, in a market that was very different from France.
Um, we, we were able to travel a lot, uh, to Hebrew coast. Um, so yeah, it was a very. Interesting first experience and a great opportunity for me, uh, going from a more classic path of, uh, industry and pharma to, uh, open my eyes to new, uh, horizon. And in particular, uh, to grow my, my passion for the application of new technologies to the healthcare field.
Naji Gehchan: I want to go a little bit there because it’s a, it’s a great, uh, experience on how you’re framing, uh, try to, uh, you went from the, what you say, the classical path. into more tech. You also discovered other challenges that we do not face in countries because you’re, we’re talking now you’re in Paris and France.
So, um, where, where you had, uh, your, your studies, um, and also entrepreneurial. So there’s, different levels of cultural differences that you had from work to also the patients who were serving. So I’d love to go there and understand now after the facts, when you look back, what is the key learning, uh, or the key leadership lessons that you had through the experiences you’ve been having.
Clarissa Gorin: Sure. So yeah, for me, it was very, um, instructive, uh, first experience because as you said, uh, we were coming from our well, well developed, uh, countries idea, um, project proposition. And, uh, once arriving in, uh, Africa, um, Hebrew coast, it was really a challenge to understand the cultural differences also, uh, regarding the adoption of new technologies.
Uh, you know, we were. Coming there was a great idea to fight this fake medicine problems, which is very important in such countries. But we had also this very fine tuning technology called blockchain, where we wanted to capitalize, to capitalize in. And it was sometimes very difficult for us to, well, to educate also the local population of the potential of, uh, such a fake medicines and also, uh, the usage of such a new technologies.
Um, even, you know, like, uh, using a smartphones, uh, on a daily basis, but not something that was so usual at the time, uh, in Africa in comparison to, um, well, um, Europe and, uh, specifically, uh, Africa. Um, so for me, uh, it was. Very, uh, important, uh, to understand and to have adaptability process, uh, in mind, uh, to make sure that we adapt the technology to the real needs of the fields.
And it was, I mean, for me, it’s one of the most important, um, capacity of, uh, leaders is to have a great adaptability mind process to support, uh, agile. Team culture and also personal cultures of work, um, to be able, you know, to quickly, um, react if there is some, uh, dynamics, for example, here, a new challenge in new countries, uh, with different cultures, uh, to be able to adapt, um, such technology in the, in this case.
But also, um, it enables great leaders to encourage. And exploit new opportunities and to take on new challenges. So I think it was maybe for me, the greatest lesson learned on this first experience, that we need to adapt our thoughts and beliefs to the actual needs of the market. And especially for new technologies that come from another situation and other markets to be able to adapt it to local specificities.
Naji Gehchan: So do you look now at new technologies in a different way about how they would actually impact patients across the globe?
Clarissa Gorin: Yes, sure. Um, so I believe that my different, uh, now look on a new technology and in particular in this, uh, medical sector, uh, is that sometimes, uh, we do not need to have the most sophisticated, uh, technology to be able to tackle some, uh, specific needs, you know, sometimes when we discuss with, uh, doctors, nurses, um, in, uh, hospital centers, uh, Um, they describe us their needs and their daily problems.
And sometimes we just look back and say, you know, we don’t need a very fancy technologies to be able to answer to that need. So it’s really a challenge for us working in the tech where we want to make sure that our technologies are adopt, adopted, um, by every populations. But sometimes, I mean, a. For us, it’s, uh, it’s important also to know, uh, where we do not need actually, um, new technology to answer this needs.
Um, it’s very different, I believe, from, um, other industry, um, where sometimes it’s the more important is actually the, the technical concept of the technology, but I’m pretty sure and from now on to have been able to discuss with lots of different stakeholders in the medical sectors, it’s much more related to if there is a specific challenges and what is the fit for people’s technologies that could answer to this needs to be able to achieve a full adoption by the different users.
Naji Gehchan: Thanks. So that’s, that’s a great points you’re bringing. And really it reminds me like there’s. We’re a lot of work actually in the healthcare sector, as you know, about low tech that can actually improve and impact patients. So there’s always this idea of certainly high tech has done tremendous work, and we’re going to talk about this and where you’re excited.
But not forgetting that some. Some places low tech can really bring a huge impact for people. Uh, and we, we should continue to consider it.
Clarissa Gorin: Yeah, totally. Uh, low tech, but also, uh, making sure that, um, all, uh, accessibility aspects are taking, um, in consideration when developing and conceiving, uh, this technology products.
Uh, we’ve been working, uh, in AdSensia means very different, uh, age courses of patients, uh, meaning children. uh, elderly patients. And, um, every time we ask ourselves what is the best technology to be able to achieve accessibility, uh, so, you know, like, uh, capacity of, uh, using the tool. Uh, but also, uh, there is some accessibility aspects related to, uh, disabling aspects of such a chronic disease, uh, hearing loss, for example, and other aspects.
And, um, it’s true that sometimes, um, new technologies are the answers, but sometimes they are not. And so, I mean, being humble about, uh, what those type of high tech, uh, products can, uh, can perform and achieve in the health tech sector, um, is very important, um, for me, uh, so on.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. And how you’re framing it, uh, would correct me if I’m wrong.
I’m feeling like we should always think about. What do we want to achieve and the technology, whether it’s like super high tech or it’s not, is actually just a mean.
Clarissa Gorin: Sure. And it’s just a mean, and also it could be different, uh, with different means, you know, like being able to really identify which is the specific medical challenges or.
Unmet needs that you want to tackle, um, is very important. And for one specific medical challenges, you could think about different, um, tech solutions to, to answer to it. Um, and for us, sometimes, uh, um, we, when we start a new project, um, we can identify that sometimes our projects are not the best solution to answer as a specific medical challenge.
And it’s. It’s totally, uh, okay to, to, to stop, uh, the project and to answer that we do not have, um, the best project to answer this and to be able to, yeah, once again, being humble about, um, what your, your project can do and what is not the best, uh, to do is very important.
Naji Gehchan: And it starts, as you just said, with the unmet medical need.
It really starts with patients. What are we trying to solve to make their life better?
Clarissa Gorin: Totally patients, um, but also doctors, uh, sometimes, um, we can see that, you know, in particular in France, uh, we, uh, where we have a public health sector, um, that sometimes, um, isn’t. Is in difficulty. Uh, sometimes we can see some very specific national, um, um, errors or like challenges, uh, to be tackled by new technologies.
Uh, I believe that there is a lot to do in hospital centers, expert centers, uh, to make sure that, um, the whole, uh, care pathway is more efficient. And also, you’re totally right. Much more related to, um, well. Direct benefits for patients and for their daily life, but both are very important to understand, um, either if it’s a specific, um, medical for doctor use or a patient use, because it will be very different in your, um, development process and, um, well, concept phase, um, to be sure to have the best fit for people’s, um, project.
Naji Gehchan: Awesome. So we just said, and you said that you don’t have like, there’s not only one solution, there is several and it depends, but I’m going to still ask you this question, since you’ve been in this field and you’re looking into the future, which one of these solutions do you think Or a couple of these emerging techs are you most excited about for the next decade that you really think they are going to change our health?
Clarissa Gorin: Yeah, well, of course, I will talk about, uh, well, digital biomarkers because, you know, I’m working on it and I believe there is a lot of to do. Um, but also I would say that, um, Well, AI and VR can also have a lot to do. For example, uh, I’ve seen a lot of projects, um, coming from virtual, uh, reality systems, uh, that could have a strong impact in the field of, for example, digital therapeutics, uh, where we can see that such tools can be used, um, to be Really like intervention based driven by software programs to, uh, help prevent, uh, manage or treat some medical disorders and disease.
Uh, for example, like VR can be used to, uh, treat, um, chronic pain or, for example, to, uh, Hades, um, in, uh, rehabilitation programs by, uh, incorporating sensors and, um, software technology to provide a real time feedback and guidance to, to patients, uh, directly at home. So it’s really something, uh, that can be very useful in, for example, neuromuscular disease, uh, other orthopedic, uh, diseases.
Regarding artificial intelligence in particular, um, we’ve been, uh, understanding and hearing a lot regarding how, uh, AI will, uh, replace, uh, human doctors in the near future. Um, I really don’t think it would be the case. Uh, I much more think that it will become critical tools, um, to help augment medical practice and, um, much more important to reduce the burden for healthcare providers.
So for example, we can think about diagnostic tools that helps doctors to improve real time decision making for clinicians. For example, by analyzing a lot and a lot of data at the same time, so the healthcare provider, uh, Could not be able to do it from, for example, a patient’s medical records or scientific articles or medical guidelines, um, for example, to give, uh, some treatment recommendation or to identify some drug interactions, uh, much more easily, uh, and with a tons of data analyzed at the same times.
Regarding, uh, digital biomarkers, um, for me, I believe that, uh, such tools as you introduced, uh, that are really new measures of, uh, physiological or comportmental, um, aspects of, uh, patients and that are, um, generated directly by patients by the means of, uh, digital devices. Uh, they have the power to really, um, well, understand some mechanisms that are not well understood so far, for example, to monitor or predict, uh, some diseases and specifically neurological diseases.
Uh, where we know that, uh, usual biomarkers such as, uh, imaging biology are not fully, uh, sufficient to understand the clinical evolution and response to treatment of individual patients. So, it’s a really a major, uh, research challenges for clinicians and, um, well, for the scientific community at a whole.
And, um, for me, it was very, uh, important. Um, to try to see how those digital biomarkers could be useful in such a pathology. Uh, so yeah, well, I think it’s a three examples. I know that there is tons of more, um, but I see here some very, uh, specific and practical, um, aspects and, uh, objectives because we know there is also lots and tons of technologies that are still in research and development, but.
That have not, um, well, indication and usage are ready for the next years.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much, uh, Clarissa for for this. Can can you give us a couple of one or two use cases, for example, for digital biomarkers, which is one of the specialties here. And I’m interested to learning more on specific use cases that have had an impact on research or on patients.
Clarissa Gorin: Yeah, sure. Uh, well, maybe some first, uh, example that we, that we have, um, I could say that, uh, in multiple sclerosis, that is a neurological disease, autoimmune disease, um, where we know that patients are evolving, uh, during the years and progressively, um, going into a late progressive phase, uh, where they tend to act Cumulate some disabling aspects of their disease, um, and which is the first cause of, um, disability in young patients after traumatic cases.
So really, uh, major. public health impact, um, for such disease and where, uh, as so far, it’s very difficult, uh, for clinicians, so mainly a neurologist, uh, to understand, uh, why some patients are progressing more rapidly than others. And we know that it’s a very specific challenge, uh, to know and to detect Earlier, uh, when a patient will be progressively, um, going into this progressive phase of the disease, uh, where it’s very important to, for example, adapt the treatment, uh, to slow down the disease and, uh, and, and stop the, the progression of the disease, uh, um, inherently.
And so here, uh, we know that So typical biomarkers are not, um, sufficient to detect and predict the true moments, uh, where such patients will be, uh, while transforming into their disease phase. And that’s where, uh, one hypothesis is that, um, digital biomarkers by enabling, uh, much more frequently measures of the functional impact of the disease of the patients, for example, regarding the walking capacities.
Cognitive impact, uh, vision related disabilities are upper limb and dexterity impacts, uh, would be able to gather enough data, enough specific and sensible, uh, markers, uh, to be able to detect it, um, earlier. So that’s one hypothesis, uh, that we have as so far, um, it’s something that is already used by neurologists, um, just to, uh, well monitor.
For, um, their patients and for example, see if there is a deterioration, uh, when we, they put in place some novel treatments to assess, uh, the individual treatment response of patients and for example, switch treatment earlier if we see that there is a negative impact. So maybe that’s one example, uh, much more related to patient care, um, but also research because of course it’s very important for industry players, um, to making sure that they have some specific markers of response to treatment to be able to treat earlier the good patients at the right, at the right time.
Um, so yeah, that could be, uh, maybe some, uh, first, uh, example. And maybe the second example that I could have, um, a recent example that we saw, uh, much more related to psychiatry, uh, where we know also that it’s very, uh, difficult to understand the different, the different biomechanical pathway of, uh, in a psychiatry and much more in acute phases of psychiatry, uh, dimension.
And, um, another example that, uh, that we developed, uh, and is, uh, currently in the clinical validation phase is to being able to identify novel digital biomarkers of, uh, treatment response in a antidepressant, um, populations. The challenge that we wanted to tackle is that, uh, so far when a patient, um, a major depressive patient, um, is, um, uh, being prescribed some antidepressant, uh, medications, uh, we need to wait a long time to be a, being able to really see if, uh, this treatment is, um, efficient on the patient or not.
So the hypothesis is that we developed some vocal biomarkers of the voice of the patient, uh, which we know, uh, are correlated to their depressive state or not. And with the combination of lots of other biomarkers, um, it could, uh, be, we could be able to detect very early if the patient is, uh, uh, answering to, to his treatment, uh, or not.
Those
Naji Gehchan: are great examples. I want to ask you how you’re thinking about, uh, sensors. Voice recognition. How does this get incorporated in patients lives? Because we’re like surrounded by sensors. Right. And what I have like one watch here, another one here, do I have to input the data? And I’m not, I’m not going to go into, unless you want to like all the GDPR data, privacy field of science.
Right. Uh, but really more from a user. If I’m thinking about a user, me as a patient. And the amount of sensors I would have and how I interact with them, how I make sure they’re giving you the information. How are you guys thinking about this? Is it like a new technology, like physical sensors or technologies you’re bringing?
Are you trying to incorporate with whatever the big tech companies have? How do you think about that?
Clarissa Gorin: Well, I believe it’s very depending, uh, on the, well, usage and indication, uh, that you want to achieve, um, for us. Um, it’s very important that, uh, the technological tool is incorporating in the real life of the user.
So, uh, we want to. Capitalize of some tools that the patient already have in his own hand. So that’s why we mainly work on the smartphone of the patient, making possible to transform the smartphone into a really a medical recording system that the patient doesn’t have to, you know, to, to equip and to buy another external sensor that is sometimes difficult to put in, uh, in his own daily life.
Well, if it’s, for example, for a clinical study or for a research based, uh, program, where we know that is, uh, you know, during a certain amount of time, uh, but it’s, uh, only during a few weeks or a few months, we can totally imagine to have like, uh, a very specific, uh, external sensor, very, um, sensitive, very, uh, very, uh, hard tech, uh, product.
But if, uh, we believe into a real life usage as, uh, we are working with in, in Adsenciam, we try to work, uh, with the most, um, you know, known, uh, products of patients at no cost. For patients. It’s very important for us also to achieve equity. Um, and, uh, well, large usage, adoption in the, in the general population.
Uh, so that’s why we, we capitalize on the different sensors that are already embedded in the smartphone. Um, it’s totally possible to work also with, uh, some external sensors that the patient would. Already have, uh, it’s always just a question of interoperability, uh, that, uh, well, Lots of, uh, technical providers can, uh, can put in place.
Um, but if you’re all Just talking about a clinical study, clinical research usage, it’s very difficult different because you, you know, you don’t have all this user experience requirements to put in place as there is no long term adoption and usage questions to to answer to. tool. So, I mean, it really depends on the type of projects, but for real life usage, we totally recommend, and that’s what patients are telling us, uh, to use the, the most easy tools that they already, almost all of them have in their pockets, which is, which is the smartphone or smartwatch or any other, um, known product for, for patients and easy to use.
Naji Gehchan: So Clarissa, I want to give you now a word and I would love your reaction to it. The first one is leadership.
Clarissa Gorin: Um, well, I would say to answer that, I would say, um, leadership is about organizing and training, uh, the collective, uh, to, uh, maybe extract its, uh, best. quintessence, if we can say. Um, it’s always to being, making all the different people, uh, working together to achieve, uh, same and common, uh, objective.
But also, uh, the second word that I would, uh, that I would keep is authenticity. Um, it’s what I try to apply, uh, to, to the best every day, uh, is to, um, well, Staying true to yourself, being transparent about your strengths and areas for development, um, especially in the med tech sector, uh, where there is a lot of uncertainty, um, related to projects or businesses, uh, scenario.
Um, so for me, it’s really not enough to have a great competence expertise, uh, to being a great leader. It’s much more related to. Um, people trusting you and trusting your integrity. Um, and also feel a direct and personal connection with you. This is why I place a great emphasis on the importance of, um, you know, sharing passion, personal, personal information, um, with the team.
Um, because, uh, I believe, yeah, like authenticity and confidence, um, is very important because otherwise, um, people will be reluctant to, to take risk and to, uh, to, to work alongside, uh, with you. So, yeah, I would say like, uh, this, uh, It’s three aspects, if I would say, um, organizing and training the collective together, but also, uh, bringing more intensity, uh, authenticity, sorry, and, um, and also, uh, sharing some, uh, uh, always, uh, personal information and, uh, and gaining trust of the people that are around, uh, around you.
Naji Gehchan: The second word is diversity. ,
Clarissa Gorin: um, diversity, I’m sorry if it’s not a, a single word . It’s, that’s fine. That’s fine. Sometimes it’s a, it’s a bit, uh, longer. Um, but diversity, uh, specifically in the, in the MedTech, uh, sector, I would say that, uh. Very important, and also for leader working in this sector, is to making sure that the different projects that we develop are alongside this different diversity that patients can have.
So yeah, diversity and inclusion, I would say in terms of both words. Um, we know that for a long time, uh, this high tech products, uh, were mainly developed, um, for well profitable populations and, uh, well, not, uh, used by all of the different. diverse population, uh, that were targeted. Um, and I know, uh, that, uh, the medtech sector can really help improve, uh, such a diversity and inclusion in the healthcare system.
For example, um, capitalize of such a techno capitalize on such technologies to Improve the diversity in clinical trials could be very important. Um, for example, you know, like adding some new device that could make able some, um, uh, participants to to join the clinical studies that are living abroad that are living in, uh, or the types of population that were not Principally targeted in, uh, in clinical research, uh, can be, uh, important.
Naji Gehchan: I love this and I love this great example. I’m working heavily on diversity in clinical trials with, with my team. So yeah, we can, we can have another session specifically on that. Yeah,
Clarissa Gorin: totally. Well, I really believe that, uh, well new, new texts and, uh, for example, as such a, well, smartphone based or like connected device, um, to be included as a, You know, like digital endpoints in clinical studies could have a great impact in diversity and inclusion of different populations that we usually don’t see in clinical trials of, of a drug, of new drugs, clinical trials.
Naji Gehchan: The third one is blockchain.
Clarissa Gorin: Blockchain. So, well, I would say, uh, a lot of, uh, a lot of noise, uh, a lot of, um, uh, how to say, um, Lots of, uh, I don’t remember how to say, uh, uh, a lot of hope. Yeah. Sorry. A lot of hope that was, uh, that was done in, uh, in the health healthcare sector, uh, regarding, uh, the blockchain.
Um, I remember that, uh, when we started, uh, on this first project, uh, on the fake medicine, uh, um, project, uh, we were hoping that, uh, such tool could could, you know, like help, uh, tracking the different, uh, path of the supply chain of, uh, drug systems. We believed, um, because it was also from the financial, um, industry that it could help, uh, well, tackle some, uh, specific breach of information related to drug distribution, um, process.
Um, but so far, uh, not a lot of, uh, well, scenarios and applicable, um, solutions. Um, so yeah, I would say a lot of hope, uh, at that time. Um, but still some, uh, um, some scenarios of specific projects, uh, to, to be, to be developed.
Naji Gehchan: The last word is spread love and organizations.
Clarissa Gorin: Well, spread love in organization, um, I mean, for me, much, much, uh, related to, uh, what we discussed so far to, um, well, promote, uh, well, authenticity and also, uh, promote, um, uh, trust around people, um, by.
giving them the opportunity also to discuss, to talk, to have their own point of view in our process. That’s really something that we try to put in place, um, at, uh, at Atsensium. Um, you know, it’s, it’s very, um, It’s very, uh, scaling dynamic in this health tech, uh, startup environment. Um, when we know that there is, uh, some more junior profiles that are coming, some tech profiles that are not, uh, always, um, Very well known about the healthcare sector.
And for me, a spread love in an organization would say like giving the opportunity to each to give their own point of view, uh, as part of their process, as part of our process, methodology, uh, just making sure, um, that even if it’s, you know, there is not this lots of, uh, yeah, she, uh, in between the different people in the organization, but making sure that, uh, All the, the different voice of people I heard and, uh, also, uh, putting trust into this, uh, different people.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, uh, Carissa, for healthcare leaders around the world?
Clarissa Gorin: Um, when I would say that, uh, for me, and I, I’m not a great example of it, uh, leadership is not, uh, innate gift or like, uh, superman, uh, abilities, uh, that people are born with. Um, I believe it’s really, you know, a journey of self discovery.
Self development, um, much more related to willingness to embrace, uh, learning, learning new things. Um, it involves usually like stepping beyond, uh, comfort zones. Um, maybe immersing in, uh, unfamiliar territory as I did at the very beginning of my professional path, uh, you know, like coming from the classical, uh, pharma industry sector, uh, believing, uh, I would be, uh, uh, joining a marketing or commercial path to a new technology, blockchain, digital biomarker, artificial intelligence, uh, which for me was really new I didn’t have, and it.
It could only be your life. I’m telling you that I always had this, uh, you know, this, uh, mindset for tech and, uh, and nerd profile, which is not the case at all. Uh, so yeah, immersing in, uh, unfamiliar territory and, uh, maybe navigating, um, challenges to, well, Ultimately inspire and try to guide others. Um, I would say that are, well, yeah, the most important aspects of, um, such leaders.
And in particular in the, the med tech sector, uh, where we know, uh, once again, that there is a lot of uncertainty, uh, it’s really a constantly involving, evolving and dynamic, um, environment. Um, so very important to, uh, well, Step aside and try a new thing to, to try to, um, to collect new also, uh, inputs and insights from others to, to, to try to guide them at the end.
Naji Gehchan: What a great way to, uh, finish our chat. I love how you framed it. Leadership is a journey of self-development. That’s a great charge for all of us as leaders. Thank you so much, uh, for joining me today and, uh, for this great conversation.
Clarissa Gorin: Well, thanks to you, uh, thanks for the opportunity also to, um, once again to to share my, uh.
Well, young experience, but, uh, I hope, uh, interesting for others. Um, there is a lot of opportunity in the med tech sector, a lot to do. Uh, there is still new things that we, we, we identify and that we, we believe could be done in the next future. So thanks again for the opportunity and for the really nice chat with you.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform.
Thank you all for listening to Spreadlove in Organizations podcast! More episodes in partnership with ESCP Business School are available on spreadloveio.com or on your preferred podcast app. Follow “spreadlove in organizations” wherever you listen to podcasts and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement our World so desperately needs.
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Moktar Diallo founder and CEO of Mangabey. Dedicated to transforming global pharma data interactions, Moktar brings over two decades of expertise in creating cutting-edge business intelligence systems, leading change management and transformative data architecture for multinational commercial operations. At Mangabey, Moktar leads a team of data and analytics experts, driving commercial data operations focusing on lean, open, and unified data ecosystems. Moktar’s impact extends beyond technology and operations; he is passionate about helping top-level business leaders navigate enterprise-wide change. Prior to Mangabey, Moktar’s successfully led Business Intelligence teams at Sanofi and Bristol Myers Squibb.
Moktar, It is such a pleasure to have you with me today!
Can you first share with us your personal story? What brought you to the pharma industry and being passionate about data in healthcare?
Moktar Diallo: Um, so first of all, thanks for inviting me to your podcast. And I’m very delighted to, you know, to discuss with you today and, uh, and share some of my experience.
Um, You know, starting with pharma, um, I’ve started in pharma 20 years ago, as you, as you mentioned, and it was pretty random. Um, originally I, um, before that I was working in data, uh, at some, um, after school, I had some interim jobs, um, You know, um, trying to, uh, basically earn my life. I, uh, I was kind of a dropout school.
Uh, I had the talent in, um, in computing that I’ve developed very early in my, uh, my life, very young. Um, I was good at school, but, um, when I left my home and, uh, and started to go to high school, um, I started to get prepared for, um, Uh, you know, engineering school, but, um, the level was too high for me in a way, uh, the pressure was really high.
I was far away from my family and, uh, and I had a kind of, um, kind of a dual, um, way of, of being. I could be very serious, really hardworking and very determined to, uh, to succeed in, uh, in getting good marks and, uh, and so on. But I was a kind of a rebel as well, um, and, uh, trying to, uh, to figure out what would be my, uh, my future, uh, in a different way.
And, um, so I left school and I started to, to earn my life working, uh, in different places and, uh, at some point in time, uh, I came back to, to data and IT, uh, working in different companies. Um, You know, I started to work at, uh, Shep, DHL and, uh, and different places, uh, that, uh, that would be, uh, you know, calling me for interim jobs.
And after a while, I, uh, finally started to work in, uh, in a pharma company called, uh, uh, Boots Healthcare. And, and Boots is a British based company, but they had an affiliate in France and we were selling, uh, uh, OTC products. And that’s where I started to, uh, to get accounted with, uh, with data, with analytics and, and so on.
Um, and after that, uh, the opportunity to work at BMS, as you mentioned, and go there, uh, in Paris, um, working with different affiliates, um, living to the UK for two years, um, and then back to France working for Sanofi. Uh, that’s where I’ve really, uh, uh, Um, you know, build my vision around what I was doing and the first thing that really struck me was The amount of waste of money that could happen in those companies to do something that was, uh, potentially, uh, you know, optimizable to an extent that was unseen.
Um, and, uh, I was seeing millions spent in project and so on where, you know, there would be opportunities to optimize and do a better job. And, um, And for me, we’re talking about, uh, the life of patients. We are talking about medicines. We are talking about health care. And the data was at the core of it. And, um, the, if you want, uh, the lack of, uh, of professionalism, the, the lack of, uh, of focus on making this data, uh, right and, uh, and optimize the cost managing it, um, coming from where I’m coming, you know, I’m, I’m coming from, uh, uh, very modest, uh, neighborhood.
Um, that was for me almost, uh, indecent to see this. And, um, and as I had a kind of a talent managing, uh, data, doing, uh, some IT work and, um, and building tools and algorithms and, uh, and, uh, and computing work. I dedicated my, uh, my time to, to improve that, generate savings and, and trying to do a better job than, than what I was seeing at the time.
And, um, and finally, after that, I’ve, I’ve made that my own business with Mongabay and, uh, the story.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks for sharing this. I’m intrigued. You said. Coming from mother’s neighborhood and you shared your upbringing and now leading data, a data company in healthcare, which that specifically it’s indecent to see how the waste of money and even practically the waste of data management and those large organizations.
Can you share a little bit more? Why what you saw and why you said it’s indecent and linking it to your background as you share it
Moktar Diallo: Yeah, I mean, it’s a strong word, but um, I wouldn’t say that now, uh, but back in time when I was 27 and uh, And I was trying to, to make my, my space. I was working really hard to, to build systems and, uh, and they were projects, um, similar projects around, uh, and people, they were almost building those projects to, um, to do the things, the way they were done, uh, and the things, the, if you want the way they, they had to be done, uh, in a, in a corporate environment.
So you set up a budget, you, you ask people, uh, to run a project and, uh, and distance to become very large. And, and basically doing data was a project, whereas people were working on data every day. And, uh, some of those people, they were building a real, uh, knowledge on how to do this in a way that was way.
cheaper and way more organized and those people, they were really undermined in the organizations. Um, so it was, uh, somehow it was me, uh, but, uh, the more I started to know about the organization, the more I was working with countries and different places. I was connecting with similar people. They were always the people in the middle of the organization, Um, you know, doing kind of 80 work data work, but that was crunching.
That was the way we were calling those people. The data crunchers 20 years ago. I mean, 15 years ago. And, um, and for me, that was, uh, it was difficult to see, uh, big companies coming and, uh, and running those projects for one year, two years. And at the end of those projects, people telling, okay, we, we tried, we learned a lot.
Yeah. We didn’t do anything with, uh, with those millions invested, uh, but at least we learned why those guys, uh, managing the everyday data and trying to do their best to automate and to serve their, their colleagues. They were very undermined. So this, you know, gap between we need data, that’s the shiny thing.
And, and the way people really working on it, we are treated on a daily basis. That gap was, uh, to me, um, a real, um, I mean, that was a real, uh, uh, issue.
Naji Gehchan: I love this. And it’s really what you shared since the very beginning, right? You’re a rebel and a smart, determined student. I feel within, within the work and what you, what you saw. there was this gap. So how did you deal with this gap? I imagine this is one of your leadership learning, working from corporations to now building a company where data is at the heart.
And certainly what you said is definitely true. Many times we talk about data, but at the end of the day, it’s, it’s, I love how you framed it. It’s a project. Um, well, our companies these days are more and more putting data at the heart of what we do and value it and really valuing it. But certainly for a while, it was more a project that someone would put and someone would stop.
So how did you deal with this to now building a company and what are your leadership learning along your journey?
Moktar Diallo: I mean, um, I had to be hands on. I had to go to the, uh, to the ground of, uh, of the needs. Um, to the ground of, um, of the data itself, I really had to go really to the level, uh, the most granular level.
Um, so I had to build very strong knowledge as to what is the data that exists? Um, what is the need that is out there? And what can I bring that is, uh, superior in terms of experience? Should it be faster access to the data, uh, best, uh, or better visualization? Um, fancy and, uh, an unseen, uh, indicator. Uh, I think that building that knowledge and that know how was really the base.
But the second is, uh, is to value the work you do the really, um, at that, at the time I started data was not, uh, the shiny thing that, uh, people are talking about today. Um, at that time, no CEO of a company would talk about data, no VP, no one would talk about data as such. And it’s very recently that this started, but at that time, no one was believing in this.
Uh, and, um, So I had to believe in that. I had to believe in the value of data as a piece of communication, as data, as a, as really, uh, uh, uh, basically the, um, the glue, uh, that connects people to each other in a modern organization. Um, really had to believe this and to see this very clearly to, to believe enough and suffer the way you suffer because you’re not valorized in the, on the work you do with data.
At that time, uh, that’s second and third, um, to work with early adopters. So I had the chance to, um, to work with people who were believing in this. So, um, uh, some, uh, some of my managers, uh, uh, uh, Delphine Aguilera Caron. Uh, Ron Cooper, uh, Daniel Kinney, uh, those people from different horizons, uh, some of them, uh, uh, French, but, uh, working in the UK, some of them US people because US guys are, are way more advanced.
In the way they see data than people in Europe as well. There is a cultural difference. Um, at that time, the U. S. was already quite advanced as well. Uh, versus Europe talking about data and leveraging data for for superior results. And I think those are the three elements really building the knowledge.
Don’t know how believing in, uh, in the in the vision, setting the vision and really be, uh, be loyal to that. Yeah. Vision and, uh, and, and third, uh, working with people who believe in you, uh, because you cannot, um, I wouldn’t be where I am today without the support of, of those key people I’ve mentioned and others, uh, a lot of others who share the vision and who love the know how.
Naji Gehchan: That’s a great framing, uh, Moctar. When you look back, really starting your company now, would you do anything differently?
Moktar Diallo: Plenty. Um, yeah, I mean, uh,
I think it’s important when you, when you start a company to really strongly believe in the value you bring on the table. Um, because when you strongly believe, uh, in that value, If you want to, um, you don’t, you don’t sell it in a way that would be detrimental to yourself in the future. Um, because you know, when you start a company, you’re not necessarily sure of the value of what you’re doing and you get a customer and, uh, and when you start to have a customer, everything the customer is telling you is, uh, is, is incredible.
And you don’t necessarily protect yourself of the consequences of some of the lines in some contracts and, uh, some, um, if you want, um, behaviors that you undermine and so on, um, and the return to reality can be very, very difficult to manage. So I think it’s important to really strongly believe in the value to be proud of it.
Uh, and protect yourself as much as possible. It’s not easy. It’s easier to say that after you started and, and, and seen the issues, but at least it’s important to be conscious of the weaknesses that are there, uh, in the relationship with, with clients, uh, as opposed to discover them, uh, down the road and, uh, and be a little bit naive.
Naji Gehchan: So let’s talk now about data. Your company focuses on lean, open, unified data ecosystems. Can you help us understand what do you mean by this? And what is your personal vision and beliefs around data?
Moktar Diallo: So, you know, the data we’re working with is, uh, the data is like a fluid. It’s like, uh, it’s like water. Uh, it’s like a liquid and something that needs to be consumed. It, it, it comes from different sources and, and gets together, uh, at some point in time for basically feeding, uh, you know, business insights and, uh, and actions.
Um, and to correctly pilot an organization, which is supposed to be one body. You need to assemble all this knowledge. That’s the basic thing. You need to assemble all this knowledge at some point in time. And an organization has this magical effect of, of moving different parts together. Um, but, uh, but you know, the brain is centralized somehow in an organization.
So the brain at some point in time needs to receive all the information. You can have the arm, the legs, the everything moving around. It’s important as much as possible to be able to concentrate that information. So I, I’m a strong believer in, uh, in data unification, um, as opposed to, uh, uh, data silos. And one thing that, uh, that happens when you have silos is that, um, instead of, Of having, uh, data being a tool of performance, which it is when it is, uh, transparently shared and, and, uh, and, uh, you know, assembled, it becomes a, an instrument of self power when it’s remained, uh, in silo and so on.
So people tend to keep the data for themselves. Because they, they believe that, uh, this piece of intelligence is what makes their work more efficient. And I think it’s not a modern idea. Uh, we are, we are, uh, more and more, uh, changing that. And technology as well is, is pushing for a different, uh, path. We see, uh, generative AI.
Generative AI doesn’t work with, uh, um, with big data. It works with diverse data. The more diversity you have, the, the, the better the intelligence can be. And that’s, and that’s, uh, diversity comes from assembling data from different pieces of the organization, as opposed to keep them in silos and, and, uh, where they basically, uh, uh, stay a little bit poor, uh, we can say the same for human being and all those things you need to, you know, mix, um, uh, informations for, uh, getting the, uh, through, uh, richness.
Naji Gehchan: I certainly agree with this. It’s fascinating how much data is actually siloed, you know, within our organization. And when we think about healthcare, the non connectivity of the different data, you know, I’m thinking back when I was chief marketing officer and we’re starting to do some pool databases and the complexity of making data connect.
And more recently, in France, I’m sure you’re aware, all the work the government is doing to connect data and have some medical shared platform and databases and the complexity of doing this, even though We would argue the assurance maladie, so the healthcare system in France has all the data for us, but still nothing is talking to nothing for us to be able to predict and do better healthcare.
Any thoughts about those? And probably Pivoting from this to what’s exciting about the future if we get to a unified, uh, data system.
Moktar Diallo: Yeah, it’s, um, it’s incredible how, um, artisanal, um, how, um, uh, how much crafting is behind data. I mean, people don’t imagine how much it is of manual work, of, uh, uh, human interaction to make, uh, to make sense of even raw data and build those assets.
I think that’s, uh, that’s something that people don’t necessarily realize that it is a tedious work to, to do. To create a database, to, to work on it and so on. Uh, we tend to see the really, the the last piece, which is the, the insights and the, the, the moment the data is, is refined. Um, and that’s what is, uh, is incredibly important, is the fact that it is a real effort.
A real conscious effort to make this happen. It won’t happen. Um, automatically, um, we, we work at Mongabay. We work on a lot of strategies to make that happen, to facilitate that transformation so that, um, it’s, it’s effortless if you want, but, but the reality of the work of data management is a really tedious work.
Um, especially when the data doesn’t have. Uh, the same format, uh, especially when the data hasn’t been built in a way that it would connect automatically with the, all the other pieces, all this work of unification or stitching together different sources of information is something that needs to be done.
Even that work needs to be done in a certain way. There are sciences to transform organizations and drive them towards the unification of their information systems. It’s not only an IT work that says, okay, we’re going to take a database, uh, you know, like, and structure it and make it happen. Um, if it was only this, the organization would be completely aligned for decades.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, no, for sure. And I, and as you said, like, this is the, the heavy work that needs to get done. All executives, we get excited with like, Oh, we clicked on something and we saw it right. Like data visualization is obviously what excites us. And you know, you get. Whatever you need as an info, but really realizing the value that companies like yours or internal teams that work on those data to make sure that this data is relevant.
Well done. You have categorization. Well, all the things that you guys do is many times, as you said, in the very beginning of this episode. Many times not valued or not even seen. And it’s all the people actually working to make sure that those are relevant, clean, correct, in the right categories, well transcripted, etc.
is a key part for you to be able to visualize fast and most importantly to get the right vision to make the decisions.
Moktar Diallo: At the moment, just to rebound on that, at the moment, we, we start to see the masses as this is a subject that starts to be interesting for organization, we start to see the masses around what’s the cost of data.
Um, how can we maintain. Especially in the post pandemic where, you know, costs needs to be reduced and data is exploited because of digitalization and so on. We have an explosion of the amount of data to be managed by the organizations. And at the same time, there is a need to reduce the cost of this data.
Data represent 5 percent of the revenue of companies. So that’s a huge amount of, uh, of, uh, of, uh, Of basically financial transactions around data acquisition around data management around data consumption, and that needs to be kept at the level that that allows, you know, to basically maintain and contain the explosion of this data, and that becomes a problem for organizations to make sure that they can still.
Uh, you know grabs the the the value of data because if data goes in silos We discussed that before you cannot really grasp the benefit of it But the cost of putting that together is so high that you need to work on Optimizing that cost so this is becoming a very strategic issue for Not only for pharma, I would say pharma perhaps a little bit more than other industries, um, but this is a real general problem for, uh, for any organizations.
Naji Gehchan: So I’m going to give you now a word. And I would love your reaction to it. The first one is leadership.
Moktar Diallo: Loneliness. Oh, say more. For me, leadership is a lot of loneliness, um, thinking, thinking, thinking, um, and, um, and that’s, yeah, that’s the first reaction that I felt, um, about leadership. Um, you listen a lot, uh, you think a lot, um, you, you suffer a lot.
But meanwhile, it’s extremely rewarding.
What about change?
For me, change is bringing joy. I think there is nothing more important than change. Change is what makes people go further. You know, the routine of things is what is slowing down. So sometimes we need to slow down and enjoy the routine. Uh, but change is really for me an accelerator,
health equity, um, you know, have my roots in, uh, in Africa. Um, so, uh, I think that, uh, there is a duty, uh, human duty to bring health everywhere on earth. Um, and I believe this is, uh, one of the missions, uh, we would love, uh, uh, pharma, perhaps being a little bit more, uh, Um, vocal about, uh, and that’s, uh, that’s something that is still, uh, you know, a coming issue.
Um,
Naji Gehchan: do you think data and all that we’re saying generative AI, all the access to, to, to those preventive and also predictive? Models to better health care will help from this or do you see it as actually the data that we have is not representative of all the communities and the word and thus is biased by itself.
How do you think about those?
Moktar Diallo: We talked before about the fact that data should be raw data or intelligent data because at the end You know, it’s recycles. So, you know, what we, what we get from GPT is new data that can be used to feed another system. So data at the end, as we said, uh, if it’s in silo, uh, it will be an instrument, if it’s transparently shared, it will be a tool of performance.
And, um, and as the same for, uh, for, uh, you know, the, the most, uh, advanced way to, uh, to produce data. Um, if it is shared, um, it will become a good thing to spread more equity, more, let’s say, um, really to bring more power to empower people who have not necessarily the capacity to, uh, to get access to data.
So I think it. It goes in the right direction anyway, uh, there are dangers to it. But, uh, at the end of the day, we talk about sharing knowledge and, uh, knowledge is, uh, the most powerful, uh, um, let’s say asset of, uh, of any human being.
Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread love and organizations.
Moktar Diallo: I mean, transparency is extremely important. That’s the way I see it, uh, to have the courage of, uh, of being transparent and honest. Um, I believe is the base for, uh, for, uh, healthy and sane relationship. Not always easy, not always easy. You don’t do this. You don’t do everything day one. You know, uh, even love needs to be built, uh, as well, uh, because, uh, we, no one is, uh, they won’t, they will never be perfect love.
They will be always people learning to, to live with each other. So, um,
but I think transparency is a, is a good way to, uh, to accelerate this
Naji Gehchan: and your final word of wisdom, uh, Mokhtar for healthcare leaders around the world.
Moktar Diallo: I mean, for me, uh, I strongly believe about, uh, the fact that, uh, the models organization will be clear about their data, the more they will be doing, uh, best decisions, good decisions, um, healthy decisions, uh, as opposed to, uh, To, you know, fill the gaps with, uh, with, uh, guess second guess and, and biased, uh, point of view.
Uh, so, you know, understanding the data, sharing the information, the analysis, and, uh, and, uh, having an unbiased view on everything, um, is the, the, the best way to, uh, I believe, uh, be a good leader.
Naji Gehchan: Well, Moktar, thank you so much for being with me today and for this great chat.
Moktar Diallo: Thanks, Naji. Thank you so much for the discussion.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Moktar Diallo first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, having the pleasure to be joined today by Kate Isaacs scholar, teacher, and strategy advisor who designs organizations and stakeholder partnerships for people and places to thrive. Kate draws on design thinking, system dynamics, and developmental psychology to help leaders create conditions for collective intelligence, agile performance, and transformative change. Kate is a Senior Lecturer at the MIT Sloan where I had the pleasure to take her course on nimble organizations. Her work on Nimble Leadership was actually selected for publication in HBR at 100: The Most Influential and Innovative Articles from Harvard Business Review’s First Century! Conrgats! Kate also consults with organizations in all sectors on strategy and culture change, and she specializes in designing peer-based learning experiences and facilitating multi-stakeholder collaborations. Kate is a frequent author on topics of leadership, innovation, systems change, multi-stakeholder collaboration, and corporate sustainability for publications including the Harvard Business Review, the Sloan Management Review!
Kate, It is so great to see you again and have you with me today!
Kate Isaacs: Great to be here. Thanks for inviting me on.
Naji Gehchan: Your class is still living in my head with the different great frameworks to make us better as teams, some I applied already! But before we dig into your research work on organizations, can you tell us more about your personal story and how you became this incredible thought leader, thinker, and change maker?
Kate Isaacs: Well, thank you for the kind words. I am happy to share a little bit about my journey. I am really driven by a passion for Connecting people to who they are and their deeper purpose and, and to each other and to living and expressing that deeper purpose, I grew up, um, all over the country, our family moved around a lot and I was always struck by the fact that.
The world is such a beautiful place and human beings are capable of such extraordinary creativity and beauty and we are also capable of such destruction and evil and I saw those two things happening for whatever reason I was just always very aware of our capacities for beauty and good and evil and ugliness and destruction.
And it was really hard for me to hold those two things simultaneously. Um, it was created a lot of tension for me as a child where I’d be out, um, exploring the world. I love nature and suddenly I couldn’t walk on my front lawn because it had been sprayed with chemicals. And they said, keep off the lawn.
And, um, there was all sorts of. trash in the woods where I like to walk and things like that just got me thinking at an early age about, um, who are people and how is it that we’re capable of such different expressions. And furthermore, then as I grew up and got older and, um, I was studying biology, um, because as I said, I was interested in nature and the natural world.
I thought I would be a forest ecologist or a marine biologist. Or something like that. Um, and, and as I went along in my career in education, I, I was more and more interested in, in human beings and how do we function and how do I help, um, help enable people to connect with the part of us that is capable of Capable of such extraordinary things and such creativity.
So I became a social psychologist and work with, with leaders and organizations, and just as if, um, just like you, if you work with an individual or work with myself, starting with myself and. Change my paradigm or my ability to express my purpose and clear some of the cobwebs out internally so I can, um, do more of what I feel I’m here to do on the planet in my lifetime.
Um, that’s like a ripple effect that goes out from each individual and enables them to design and lead better teams and design and lead better organizations and design and lead better societies. So that’s really what motivates me. It,
Naji Gehchan: I can’t, but ask you how, like this question you asked in the beginning, I really got off every single morning, unfortunately, with the craziness and horror happening in the world, acts of hate.
And then you have tremendous act of love and beauty. I constantly ask myself this, like how, so did you figure it out with your work or how can we at least impact our small environments to make it? Better and be only from one side of the equation. I’m interested to learn since this was really what drove you to where you are today.
Kate Isaacs: Well, I, I think I’ve learned a lot of tools along the way, uh, for how to connect people or help people connect with that inside them. And all of us that is capable of, of incredible. Creative things. And I would say, first of all, that we all have that. We all have that inside ourselves. And moment by moment, we’re always making choices to align with that part of ourselves.
I would call it the bigger self or the bigger self. You know, depending on on your belief systems. Um, some people are very spiritual about it. Some people aren’t. But, um, I think in all of us, we all know that we’re capable of those acts of compassion, generosity, beauty, creativity, where we’re operating at our best.
And every single human being has that as our birthright. And so, um, one of There are many ways to get there, but one of the things that I think works the fastest is to simply practice a spirit of appreciation and gratitude for what’s right about myself, about others, about what’s right in the world. Um, and there’ve, there’ve been a lot of studies on, you know, monks who practice compassion and, and their brain, what happens to their brains when we, when we practice the, um, active compassion and gratitude.
And it, it literally changes our neural networks and our wiring, um, in our brains and, and in our bodies. And so we, I love there’s, um, a kind of fad out there, um, that some. Talking about the idea of glimpses. So everyone’s talked about triggers and things that trigger us, and that’s common in our parlance now.
And now there’s a, there’s a new thing about glimmers or glimpses, um, and those are the things that, um, in our lives on a day to day basis that are really working well, where something comes together and it’s happening and we experience a sense of joy, pleasure, ecstasy, um, calm, peace, relaxation, and Focusing on those things and what enables us to experience those things, whether it’s how we design our lives or our mental attitudes or the care that we take with our relationships, um, you know, in our lives.
What are the things that feed into those glimmers and glimpses and how can we expand those experiences so that we’re, we’re living more and coming more and more from that place. And those, those. Experiences.
Naji Gehchan: Those are great, actionable tips. We can we can do. And you talked in the beginning about the deeper purpose.
I remember also in your class, you talk about the purpose with big P for for us personally and organization. Um, what is it if you can, like, tell us a little bit how to get to this purpose? And then as leaders and organizations, how can we make this really live every single day? Despite what’s happening, not only in the work, but also in the work itself and operationally every day.
Kate Isaacs: Well, the first thing I would say is, is take a little time, whatever time you have, it could be just 10 minutes. Once a month, we’re all busy and have a lot on our plates, but carve out a little bit of time to think about what is it that gets you up in the morning? Why do I get out of bed and go to work?
Good, really good question is what’s the contribution that I want to make? Um, some of those questions. Need our attention. And when we’re too busy just running around and doing the things that we do, and we don’t allow any time. Most of us don’t allow much time for that kind of reflection. Um, but you people are, you can be surprised how little it takes just 10 minutes to journal and get off your screen for a moment and get out a piece of paper and just journal about it, about some of those questions.
Um, and, and then. See if you can get it down into a single statement and put a period at the end and, and see if that fits. And I know I’ve done this and over time that purpose statement has changed and morphed and transitioned as I’ve gone along. And it’s, it’s really a guiding North Star for, for me and all of us.
really unique. It’s like a fingerprint. Um, we all have a unique purpose and signature that’s a product of our own unique configuration of our passions, our capacities and talents, how we grew up. It’s totally different for each of us.
Naji Gehchan: And the power of when you connect your personal purpose to what you do every single day, and the work you do, and then the organization is just massive.
And you literally manage to make things move forward for the, for the work, for the society. If I go now into more nimble organizations, something you’ve worked on, you’re an expert on, um, and Cultivating nimble organizations. Can you first tell us a little bit more? What does nimble mean?
Kate Isaacs: The idea of nimble is about being responsive to the world and being able to, as one organization that we studied in depth, WL Gore says, to organize around opportunities so that if you’re nimble, you are You, you’re doing your sense making into the world.
That’s another thing we talk a lot about at MIT, uh, concept that’s been really popularized by my colleague, Debra Ancona. So you’ve got your feelers out. You’re looking out to the world and sensing what’s going on, what’s changing, and you’re making sense of that in a way that is aligned with your organization’s purpose.
Also, it’s values. Values are qualities of character that guide how you do things. Purpose is why you’re why, as Simon Sinek says, values are equally important, um, because they, they tell you how to make the decisions, especially under pressure. So if you’re nimble, you’re making, you’re out there, you’re making sense of what’s going on in the world.
You’re bringing that information in your. Using your purpose, your values, your strategic priorities to then decide how are we going to respond to changing markets, technologies, trends, political trends, things are moving very fast. And it’s, um, often looks like a foggy road out there when you’re a leader looking to figure out how to move forward.
Um, but if you’re doing that sensemaking and some of the other things we talk about around combination of. Visioning also and executing and innovating and also relating. That’s another really key leadership capacity. You and I are relating right now. We’re having a conversation. You really need to have all of those capabilities in your organization, but the sense making and relating are often.
Underappreciated as leadership capabilities. Usually when we think about leadership, we think about the heroic leader, the person who’s visioning and inventing, um, the sense making and relating are so important, especially these days when we’re in a stakeholder world, and so many people are looking to organizations around our can we trust them?
Are they being transparent? Are they leading from values? Um, And so being able to, to do that external and internal dance as I’m talking about, um, and use your purpose values to, um, orient how you’re going to respond to your sense making that you’re doing is, is really key and we see that in nimble organizations.
They return again and again to those purpose values. Um, as guiding North stars for how they do respond.
Naji Gehchan: So I love this and it’s and you’re going correct me if I’m wrong, I think you’re going beyond just this idea of agility and innovation and you’re touching more aspects of the purpose, the social responsibility of the organization.
So do you feel this is nimble organization is really for all type of organization? Or is there pieces where, like, you know, sometimes we think of agile as you have, like, hierarchical structures and then people kind of co working, brainstorming, bringing innovation. Is it that or is it like even broader when you think about Nimble and more as a concept to improve the society as a whole versus just profits?
Kate Isaacs: Well, we, we studied organizations that are high innovation organizations. So I’ll caveat what I’m saying around just to say that, um, so Nimble is about being adaptive and responsive and, and being able to change. At the same time, um, you do need to be able to execute with consistency and regularity and predictability.
So, um, that is also really important and organizations need to be able to do both. Um, there’s this idea of ambidexterity. So, uh, I would say though, that there are the, some of the principles of Nimble are applicable in both kinds of contexts, whether you’re in an industry that’s. Well, all industries are changing, but, but if you’re part of the business is, you know, highly regulated, um, you know, and you’re doing the same kind of task over and over and over, you need to do exactly the same thing.
Um, the principles are still applicable and that fundamentally nimble is about. Uh, pushing decision making authority down as far as you can in the organization and giving people autonomy to make as many decisions as they can in line with how the organization is expecting to carry out its strategy strategic priorities.
So in order to do that. In order to free people up and give people more autonomy to do the business of the organization, there have to be some guardrails in place. Now, command and control bureaucracies give people big binders of rules or the, you know, or people are expected to just do what the leadership says.
That takes away people’s autonomy. But if you, but you still need to have some guiding guard rails in whatever context you’re in. So what do you replace the big thick binder with or the command and control from the CEO down? Well, you replace that with, um, in some parts, purpose and values and, and expected behavior.
you also replace it with, um, that, that’s, that’s part of what replaces the thick binders. If you tell people, this is what we stand for as an organization, we expect you to behave in line with these values and purpose in, in our strategic priorities. And if everybody understands that, you have a better chance at having people.
Who are autonomous, make decisions in line with what the organization wants. The other thing is that, um, nimble or organizations, if you assume that people are autonomous, you assume that they can make their own decisions. And so you can’t just tell them, um, what to do. You have to, in a sense, get them on board and engage them, enroll them in your vision.
If you’re the CEO or the senior leader. So there’s an element of. Persuasion and assuming that you have to get people’s buy in one way or the other. So a lot of leaders and nimble organizations spend a lot of time explaining why we’re making this decision. You know, senior leaders still have to make decisions for the on behalf of the organization.
We’re going into this market or we’re shutting down this plant. So those are decisions that have to be made. It’s not a democracy here. Um, and they tend to explain why. Because people want to know. And, um, there’s just a lot more transparency, listening. Um, and I think those principles are applicable, um, no matter what kind of business that you’re in.
Sure.
Naji Gehchan: And, you know, the majority of my audience is in healthcare. So I, what you were saying, highly regulated. certainly part of what we do, but also the things would apply for, for sure. Uh, so when you’re thinking about those, you talked about cultures, how senior leaders, uh, we talk about it. I’m interested to learn more from you.
How do you think about culture at the corporate level, for example, as an organization and also the. cultures within the teams and organization. I’m sure you’ve seen differences. Is there a way to say like, this is an overarching culture, or do you still see subcultures that can be actually not really what the organization is putting out as values and cultures for itself?
Kate Isaacs: I think you’re, you’re absolutely put your finger on it in terms of there are many subcultures and organizations all over the place. Culture is not a homogenous thing at all. At the same time, they’re off. There is a dominant culture in the organization that, um. You can, you can usually pick up, um, you can usually pick up and you can actually diagnose it.
You can measure culture in different ways and, um, depending on who is leading a particular unit or function or team, that individual, it’s the ripple effect of. Of, of an individual’s fingerprint or footprint, if you will, on a, on a team or a unit, whoever they are as an individual will influence the, the dynamic of the whole collective and, and how they lead meetings, how inclusive they are, um, whether they’re more directive or, um, solicit more input before making a decision, um, those, everybody’s very different.
And so the. different cultures will form around different folks who are leading different areas of the organization. And there is still usually a dominant, pretty dominant culture, those subcultures sit in inside of. I’m curious what’s behind the question.
Naji Gehchan: Well, there is, because I think we discussed this also in the class, things, you know, written on the wall and then in the water.
And, you know, I feel like there is more and more organization now looking into. Ensuring whatever culture or purpose, uh, are really kind of within what we’re looking at as a society these days, right, like incorporating social impact, incorporating really why we wake up every morning. Uh, and I’m wondering, like, is this sufficient and what is the roles actually of different leaders within this company and each one of us as a leader on the subcultures we actually create, even sometimes without realizing.
So this is, this is why I was asking it.
Kate Isaacs: I love this territory and it gets to something I’ve been thinking a lot about lately, which is an organization can articulate its purpose, its values, and, and, and have a culture that may or may not be representing that. Hopefully it does. And you still have all of the individuals who have their own individual purpose and values and.
So it’s what we’re not trying to do is to get everyone to say that the organization’s purpose and values are my own as an individual. Um, what, what this is really about is if you think about the organization as like a, uh, an attractor magnetic. Putting out a, a tractor beam or, uh, maybe that’s not such a good analogy because we don’t want to think of ourselves as aliens being teleported up.
But, but like, uh, putting out a magnetic field or, you know, a, a lamp in the darkness, if you will, and the organization broadcasts. These are the values, the purpose we stand for. Um, Leaders back that up with their actions. Um, the incentives are aligned, et cetera. And then what happens is, is people are drawn to that because they feel a resonance.
Um, they feel a resonance with that we’re going to what that organization stands for and what they individually stand for. So it’s, it’s a resonance thing, um, that happens. And that’s why companies with. That stand for something beyond just profits and really are making a positive contribution in the world have an edge on hiring top talent because of that resonance phenomenon and people want to work for a place that is allows them to align their personal sense of meaning and purpose with with something that’s bigger than themselves.
Naji Gehchan: I love this resonance. Phenomenon. I love it. Thanks for sharing this. I’m gonna now move into a section where I will give you a word and I would love your reaction to it. The first one is leadership.
Kate Isaacs: You want me to just react to the idea of leadership? Yep.
What I’m thinking about is an exercise I did with my students in a class I teach called discovering and developing your leadership signature. And I gave them a sheet of many, many different definitions of leadership. Some was about influencing people. Some was about developing people. Some was, some of the definitions were about producing outcomes.
I don’t think there’s any single definition of leadership that, I would say this is it. I think like many things we have to, I define what that is for ourselves. I, for myself, leadership is about inspiring and others. To live from their own purpose and values and, and doing something collectively to change the future in alignment with what we believe is possible.
That’s for me, what inspires me about leadership and it’s about change and it’s about other people and it’s about doing something bigger than myself for others and with others.
What about
Naji Gehchan: polarities?
Kate Isaacs: Oh, one of my favorite topics, uh, and I
Naji Gehchan: love the during class, the student of, uh, ,
Kate Isaacs: I’m a, a, a student of the DA Jing, which I think is the authoritative manual of polarities. It is a book of opposites, and I think if anyone who. Anyone who really wants to understand polarities could take a deep dive into the Dao De Jing, um, several thousand years old commentary on, on polarities.
They’re, uh, found everywhere in the world, in our bodies, in nature, in organizations. And they’re absolutely the, the creative tension of life and, and what makes life interesting. One of the most fundamental polarities is our breath. We breathe in and we breathe out many, many, many times a day. And we have to do both of those things in order to have a healthy functioning body and mind.
So. You need both of these ends of poles, um, and it helps to know that they exist and that you can get stuck in one side or the other and, and it helps to know some tricks to get unstuck. And, and start to see, uh, what my, uh, friend and mentor and colleague and Indigenous, um, elder in Canada, John Rice, calls two eyed seeing, so that you can begin to see the other side of the polarity and the validity of it, and, and get disembedded from an over identified With one side or the other, and then you’re in a real position to lead, um, because you can see, recognize and respect the truth of both ends of the pole and the people who represent the voices on either end of the pole.
If you’re talking about an organization, then you’re in a different position to help make, uh. the miracle happen in the middle, if you will.
Naji Gehchan: I love it. And I really enjoyed when you talk and thought that’s about polarities. Can I double click with maybe a tangent to this when you’re saying so the leader’s role or the power and the magic happens when you see those two polarities for you to be able to take a decision.
There is more and more ideas about should you take sides when it’s. Polarities really kind of splitting the word as we’re saying like there’s a lot of polarities today’s in the word that are social issues. How do you think about this for leaders is our role to see those polarities and ensure people can speak up.
They exist and we understand them. Are you one who would advocate we need to take a stand, take a side? How do you think about all this in our current world?
Kate Isaacs: Well, given what I just said, you probably could predict that I won’t say that you need to take a side. Because as soon as you quote, take a side, you’re missing all kinds of information and intelligence that the other side can provide. And So one of the things I have studied, I think I mentioned this in class, is the abortion debate, and I studied a dialogue where six women, um, spent five years in secret conversation because the, at the time, the um, Topic was so highly charged as it is again today that they couldn’t meet publicly.
So for five years they met And, and talked about this and I think it’s a, it’s a hopeful story because they didn’t ever see eye to eye on the issue itself. They still were very firm in their beliefs that their point of view was the correct one. But what they realized is that they could still have a respectful relationship and a civil dialogue, even though they had very different beliefs.
And they also realized that it was very interesting to talk with people on the other side, and to really understand where they were coming from, even if they didn’t agree with them. Because they it taught them so much as they said about their own beliefs and why they believed what they believed and, you know, fast, fast forward that was That was back in, uh, I have to recall the exact date, close to 20 years ago that that dialogue was happening.
But fast forward today, there’s an organization called Braver Angels, which is, um, hosting a lot of quote, red, blue dialogues so that they can create a space for people to just simply hear what the other I Folks on the other side of the political divide believe and why and they hosted some workshops around abortion in Kentucky, of all places very politically mixed environment.
I mean, of all places meaning it wasn’t like a. It was a very politically mixed environment is what I mean, and they were able to reframe the debate away from. having people argue about whether their point of view was right or wrong into what’s the problem that we’re trying to solve here. And what everybody could agree on was that no woman wants to have an abortion.
No woman willingly wants to have that happen in her life. And so what they could all agree on was that they all wanted to help prevent unwanted pregnancies. They wanted to help women prevent that. From happening. And so what could they do to help women prevent unwanted pregnancies? Well, they agreed on two moves.
One is around, um, sex education in Kentucky schools. And the other was around long lasting contraception. And this was a group of conservatives and liberals, reds and blues who came together and agreed on that. So it’s just an example of how the Reframing the problem that you’re trying to solve allows you to, you know, maybe not totally let go of your beliefs around a particular issue, but still lets you move forward in a productive way because you’ve identified something in the middle, that common ground that you can work on together.
Naji Gehchan: I love it, Kate, and I’m just such a big believer in this. We did actually end up doing healthy conversations and healthy debates with my classmates during MIT, during these tough moments. And this was the whole idea, where we can bring our differences and actually have healthy conversations for us to move forward as a society and as leaders.
I love your example. The third word is storytelling. Mmm.
Kate Isaacs: I come from a long line of Irish storytellers, so storytelling is, is in my blood and I, I love to tell stories and have, actually teach storytelling, as you know, um, and, and how can we tell great stories? I think that, uh, storytelling is Thanks. is a bit of a lost art, and it’s coming back because people are realizing how powerful it is to change minds, to change hearts, and to make connections with the people that we’re Our peers and folks we’re trying to lead or influence whether it’s up or down in an organization.
We are hardwired for stories and there’s some really interesting research about what happens to our brains when we hear stories and, um, there are different brain chemicals that get released, our mirror neurons turn on, um, we are along for the ride when we are listening to a story. We are Right there generating our own internal imagery of what’s happening and one of the great leadership skills is to be able to put pictures in people’s minds and bring people into your experience so that they can go on that ride with you and then come out the other side and, um, And, and, and be open to what you might suggest about what’s next.
So I have a great example. I don’t know if we have time, but, um, a great example of where I saw some executives doing this, if you want me to share, there’s, um, um, group of hospital executives in Chicago led, uh, Initially by Rush University Medical Center. So this will relate to, you know, the industry that you’re talking about.
Well, Rush University Medical Center, uh, led by a team that had done a lot of research on the, um, racial health gap. And, uh, the former chief medical officer, David Ansell, wrote a book, um, actually called The Death Gap in Chicago where he, he and others who were on the team at Rush University Medical Center told the following story to try to get other hospital executives in the region to work with them on closing the death gap.
You get on the Chicago subway in downtown Chicago, um, you can expect to live into your 80s. That’s the average life expectancy downtown. You get on the blue line in Chicago and you go down into the subway, you get on the subway and take it seven stops and get out on the West side of Chicago. And if you get out and you live there instead of downtown, you can immediately lose 16 years off your life expectancy.
just because of the environment, um, and all of the risks associated with, with living in that West side neighborhood where Rush University Medical Center is located. And there’s a whole lot of reasons for that, um, uh, historic racism and under invested in neighborhoods and, and things like that. And so Rush.
began to ask itself, well, this is the neighborhood that we’re in. What is our responsibility to help close the death gap here? And, uh, they, they began to tell this story and it’s a horrifying story. Um, 16 years of life expectancy just by living in this neighborhood instead of in downtown wealthier Chicago.
And that, that story, which put pictures in people’s minds, um, lit a fire under the other health system executives in the region. And so they, um, got together and decided to do something about it. And one thing that came out of that was to launch a new nonprofit called Westside United, which is committed to, um, systems change and, um, all sorts of systemic interventions into the community to deal with, to basically help people, people live.
With, um, greater health and, um, safety and a sense of well being. So, this is one of my favorite examples of where a really clear story, um, coalesced people around a collective agreement that this has to change. We’re going to put some money into it, and they’ve attracted many millions of dollars to do this work in the West Side neighborhood of Chicago.
It’s incredible.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you for sharing this, uh, this powerful story. The final word is spread love and organizations.
Kate Isaacs: Say it again. Spread love
Naji Gehchan: and organizations.
Kate Isaacs: Spread love and organizations. Spread love and organizations. Well, I am actually really happy that we can use the word, the L word in business now.
Um, because it, it used to be a no no. It was a four letter word that nobody was willing to say. But, you know, in the end. What’s the point if it’s not about love and loving what we do, loving each other, loving our customers or our patients? If you’re in health care, why do we do anything in the end? Why do we do anything in the end if not for love?
I wouldn’t say anything more than that. It’s all about love. It’s all
Naji Gehchan: about love. And I will say I love it. I don’t know if you can say it in corporate, the L word, but for sure I’m saying it. And I, I really love that you also push for it. So any final word of wisdom for leaders? around the world.
Kate Isaacs: Say it again.
The sound cut out for a sec.
Naji Gehchan: Sorry. Any final word of wisdom for leaders around the world?
Kate Isaacs: I think for me, the next decade is going to be going deeper into the territory of how do we use our, our intuition, our awareness of what our bodies are telling us, our emotional intelligence.
All of the kinds of things that aren’t about data and, um, but are intangible. And I would dare say, perhaps a more feminine way of leading. I. We’ll be going into that territory. And I, I would just invite people to start to pay attention to, you know, what is your gut telling you? Yes, we need data and we need to have good logic and reasoning.
I mean, I’m at MIT, I’m trained up in that. And, and you have to pair that with an intuitive gut sense, um, paying attention to where do I feel alive? Where’s the energy? In whatever I’m trying to do. What about passion? You know, those dimensions of human experience are so important. Where do I feel joy and pleasure?
It goes back to that thing we were talking about, about glimpses and glimmers. And, and I would like to really elevate that as part of what leadership is about. Go to where you feel most alive and do that and pay attention to where you and others are most alive and expand that space because that is where, that is where change will happen.
And that’s where the future lies.
Naji Gehchan: Where do I feel alive? Thank you so much, Kate, for being with me today and this incredible discussion. Thank you.
Kate Isaacs: Thanks, Naji. Thanks for having me. Such a pleasure.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, for a special episode in partnership with Jill Donahue for her new book “A Dose of Inspiration: 100 purpose stories from Pharma Leaders”. I am joined today by Adam Castano, VP of Global Clinical Development at BridgeBio after having led Global Clinical Development teams Merck. Adam is a board-certified cardiologist and industry professional dedicated to the singular unifying purpose of bringing innovative therapies and breakthroughs that improve patients’ lives. Previously he led development programs in cardiac amyloidosis at BridgeBio and Pfizer Inc. He also served as Assistant Professor and Co-Director of the Center for Cardiac Amyloidosis at Columbia University College of Physicians & Surgeons.
Adam, it is such a pleasure to have you with me today!
Adam Castano: Thank you so much, Naji. Pleasure to be here with you.
Naji Gehchan: Can you first share with us your personal story from your passion to cardiology to now joining the biotech world. What is your purpose?
Adam Castano: I guess we can start, um, with my, my story starts with my parents. I would say, um, my, my mother, uh, is a, uh, Freudian psychoanalyst.
So as you can imagine, you know, Uh, someone who thinks very deeply about the mind. Uh, my father is a cardiologist. Um, so again, someone centered in the heart, uh, like myself. And, um, um, so growing up in that context. With two parents who sort of, you know, one talked a lot about, uh, thought and deliberate, um, process and, um, sort of, uh, intellectual topics, um, and the other, um, being more, uh, uh, heart driven, if you will, um, was someone centered in sort of the Uh, you know, uh, the, the, the marks of sort of, uh, I don’t want to say emotion, so to speak, but, um, more, more raw intuition.
Um, uh, and, uh, so I grew up with, with sort of that, um, overarching philosophy. Um, and this was all in an international setting. So I, I went to an American school, um, uh, the American school foundation in Mexico city, um, for early parts of childhood. Um, and also, um, spent, um, a majority of childhood here in New York City, where, um, my mother’s family is from.
And so in that context, um, had sort of an international influence on, um, you know, how I viewed the world, um, and that, you know, drove me, I think, uh, growing up, um. Uh, I had a early affinity for science. I remember my, uh, parents, uh, gifting me a microscope when I was young. Um, and, uh, spent a lot of time with that, perhaps too much time.
Um, but enjoyed it. And that flourished into a love of, uh, science, um, that continued on throughout, um, you know, my, um, high school and then eventually, uh, undergraduate training, um, at Princeton, um, where I studied molecular biology and Spanish literature, um, and, uh, again, one for the heart, one for the mind.
Um, And, uh, and then went on to study medicine, um, uh, and it wasn’t until sort of medical school that I. Discovered that cardiology, um, was, was, uh, you know, a field of internal medicine that was best suited for my particular, uh, background and interests and, and sort of future aspirations. And so that, that brought me to, um, you know, my clinical training.
Um, uh, I, I did that at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, go blue. Um, and then, uh, after that, um, had, uh, the opportunity to come back to New York where I essentially stayed and have, um, done, uh, the rest of my medical training. So, uh, residency, um, at Columbia University, uh, in internal medicine, and I stayed on for fellowship in cardiology, um, during that period of time, I, I.
Um, took some research years and also, um, got a master’s in patient oriented research and, um, clinical trial design at the Mailman School of Public Health. Um, and then stayed on as well for an extra advanced, uh, cardiac imaging, uh, fellowship. Um, so, um. You know, that’s why I have a lot of gray hair spent, um, perhaps too much time in training, but enjoyed every 2nd of it.
And, um, it was during that training that I came across my 1st academic mentor, uh, Matt Mauer, who. Really inspired me, um, um, from an intellectual and a clinical sense. Um, um, we encountered a patient with cardiac amyloidosis that really fascinated me. Um, this was at the time a rare. Um, um. Uh, disease that. Uh, was, uh, undiagnosed, uh, underdiagnosed, uh, not a lot of, uh, physicians, uh, knew about it or how to treat it.
There were no therapies, um, and I thought to myself, you know, I was a young intern at the time. Wow, this is really a fascinating, um, disease process with, you know, not a lot of therapy and it’s an awful disease. These, uh, these patients often, um, develop end stage heart failure and live, uh, quite a Um, poor quality of life, um, if untreated, um, especially if they’re under, you know, unrecognized as this disease often goes, um.
And so I decided to sort of buckle down and start studying that disease with my mentor at the time at Columbia and we, you know, we’re lucky to have come across some early findings and how to diagnose the disease early. We made some clinical observations of, um, potential populations at risk, uh, that were not thought to be at risk.
Um, uh, patients with aortic stenosis, for example. And even made some therapeutic advances, um, with, uh, the development of the 1st, uh, stabilizers, uh, to treat, uh, the, the disease, um, and that, um, eventually brought me to my faculty position, uh, at Columbia, so I co directed the cardiac amyloid center with him for a couple of years and enjoyed every second of it, really I think my favorite part was the patients and the day to day patient work, um, but sort of nagging at me in the background, um, and this is where the international context of sort of my childhood comes in, is that I felt that I, I wanted to have a more global impact, um, with the day to day work that I was doing.
Um, and, and that’s when an opportunity came, uh, about for me to join, um, a team at Pfizer that had just, um, come to the Uh, end of phase 3 for, um, uh, to famine is the 1st, um, TTR stabilizer for a TTR cardiac amyloidosis. Um, that, um, my mentor and I had helped actually work on on the, on the academic side and now there was this opportunity to come and.
Um, you know, bring bring this breakthrough therapy to patients across the world, um, on the biopharmaceutical side. And so I decided to make that important leap, um, uh, into the biopharmaceutical industry, um, that brought me to Pfizer. Um, I. Uh, really cherish that experience. I sat at the apex of sort of, you know, the intersection between, um, development and commercial interests and, uh, regulatory interests and, um, uh, business development and, um, legal, et cetera.
Um, really learned a ton, um, early on in that process, um, and had an opportunity to see what a, you know, a major global launch was all about. Um, and then, um, um, I had, uh, after that, a new opportunity to lead, uh, an important program, um. Uh, in prevention at, um, bridge bio, um. Which is, um, uh, biotech based, uh, in Silicon Valley, uh, that is developing, uh, a novel, um, second generation, or I should say next generation TTR stabilizer called Acarimidis.
Um, and the, um, work that I do there is focused on, um, supporting that, um, important, uh, potential therapy, uh, after the completion of its, uh, phase 3 clinical trial, um, just earlier this year, um, and, um, furthermore to advance the science of, in the field to help, uh, essentially understand the question of whether we can use these novel therapies Um, to prevent disease or at least slow the onset of disease.
Um, and that’s a hypothesis that’s not been tested clinically. Um, but certainly makes sense. Um, when you think about the mechanism of disease and, um, really could do a lot of good to, um, to patients who, um, who, uh, might otherwise not have been diagnosed or, or die, get diagnosed too late and then end up, um, you know, in this continuous sort of, uh, spiral of, Late diagnosis, um, and and, you know, unfortunate outcomes that that result from that.
So that’s that’s sort of in a nutshell. Um, I should say, I, I had a, a year as well before this current, um, last, um, process where I spent a year at Merck, uh, in clinical development. Uh, helping to bring a novel, um, oral PCSK9 therapy, um, to, uh, phase three. Um, and I helped design the clinical, uh, trial for that, uh, particular compound, which I, I hope will, will, um, you know, uh, ultimately I think has a lot of promise, but we’ll see how the, the clinical trial, uh, reads out in the next few years.
Um, and I also, um, learned a lot working on a phase two clinical trial, um, or a separate compound called, so tattercept, um, that is being studied for the treatment, um, of pulmonary hypertension. Um, so that, that in a nutshell brings me to, uh, present day. I hope that wasn’t too long winded. No, that’s
Naji Gehchan: great, Adam.
And I’ll obviously go into some of the pieces you already shared and I relate to several parts of what you do. Um, as you know, I’m also leading development in the breast cancer field. Um, so I’d love first, you said you took a big leap and moved to pharma and I, uh, I know like this is usually how physicians we would feel when we, uh, when we move from clinic being in front of patients to, uh, to the biotech.
Pharma industry word. First, the first question on this is really more personal from a leadership from a personal leadership standpoint.
Adam Castano: Yeah.
Naji Gehchan: What is your biggest learning? And is there a common thread you felt from moving from academics? you still rely on strongly or ones that you felt you need to let go?
I don’t know. Like it’s more, what is your biggest learning as
Adam Castano: a leader? Sure. Um, yeah, it’s a great question. Um, I, I would say the biggest learning I’ve had, and I can’t emphasize this enough. Is that, um, you know, leaders talk a lot about different skills to, you know, organize and, and, um, sort of motivate or galvanize, um, people around them and, you know, within their spheres of influence to accomplish a particular task.
Um, and that’s all really important, but I think 1, 1 thing I’ve learned in particular, um, and this started early on, I think. Probably in, in early medical training was the idea of humility, um, and, and it’s something that I think gets brushed over perhaps, um, too often. It’s something that I think should go into, um, much more formal, uh, types of leadership training, both in business and medicine, um, in law and other sort of, you know, across the board.
Um, this idea that, you know, humility. And what what we bring to the table is is important, but there is a whole world out there that that other people also bring to the table. Um, that we can learn from. Um, and it really is what what we do in in life is a team sport and and that. Is something perhaps that, um, you know, when you think of medical school and medical teams and, you know, sort of how health care tends to be structured, there’s sort of.
Um, you know, the, the doctor at the flagship, you know, who sort of commands, you know, the ship, um, and everyone around them sort of is in a supportive role, but, um, one thing I’ve really come to learn and appreciate, especially in the biopharmaceutical sphere is that, yeah, we need doctors to help develop, you know, important breakthroughs, um, but, uh, we’re just a Piece of the puzzle, right?
And we’re not any more or less important than, um, other members, uh, of, uh, large biopharmaceutical, you know, um, uh, structures, right? Uh, we need, um, the expertise of legal colleagues and regulatory experts and, um, you know, um, People who are more on the basic science side of things to help us understand whether molecules can even do what we expect them to do in a mechanistic sense, right?
Can they bind the target? Um, we need safety experts to help us prove that our therapies are actually safe to put into humans, right? We need. Um, globally, business leaders and commercial folks who, uh, can help us understand the landscape of how, um, a particular, uh, breakthrough can get translated, um, into a product that can help, um, you know, the most number of people, um, where it’s needed, um, you know, most so, so, um, I think, I think, I hope that answers the question, you know, so it’s a sense of humility within a team structure, and that’s, that’s something I’ve really come to appreciate, um, over the years.
Yeah, it certainly does, and
Naji Gehchan: that’s, that’s such a great, uh, learning, and you, you certainly appreciate, as you said, it takes a huge amount of people and expertise. To bring a drug from an idea to pre clin and through all our clinical stage and at the end really getting it in the pharmacy and for the patients, it’s you really beautifully expressed all the different functions and several others that will get together along the way to get it as a reality for patients.
So what would you say to physicians and I’m sure you do as I do talk to several physicians who are thinking about this who are usually. Kind of worried of losing this immediate impact on patients. And I was an ER doc, right? Like you, you, the impact you see it, you, you have, you have, yeah. So what do you, how do you talk with, uh, with physicians who are thinking about this and thinking of broadening their impact, but differently?
Adam Castano: Yeah, it’s a, it’s, it’s, um, a very natural question that I think a lot of folks ask when they’re sort of at the crux of uh, an important decision and it is an important, you know, this is perhaps one of the most important decisions, uh, physicians ultimately, um, make if they decide to transition, um, into a biopharmaceutical role.
So, um, I would say You know, when I, when I, I’ll share a bit of my personal sort of journey and then, you know, perhaps that can help help us sort of glean some, some understanding. Um, but, um. I didn’t want to lose the, uh, day to day patient care aspect of it at 1st and I had something I wasn’t ready to give up.
Um, and I was fortunate when I 1st joined. Uh, Pfizer and, uh, Bridge Bio and even at Merck that there was flexibility built in for me to be able to continue to see, uh, patients in a clinical setting, um, as long as, you know, the, there were parameters put around that in terms of sort of, um, you know, time spent and, um.
You know, allocations of, uh, windows of time within my sort of global work schedule. Um, and, uh, um, in addition, and this is an important piece to ensure that there’s no sort of overlying conflicts of interest between the clinical work and the biopharmaceutical work. And as long as those boxes are checked, um, I think it’s something that, um, I think most pharmaceutical companies would actually encourage.
And that’s been my. My, um, my experience is that I was encouraged to say, Hey, if this is part of your journey, and you feel that this is important to you, um, uh, you should, you should definitely pursue this. And, um, and so I appreciated that flexibility. And so I continue to see patients from a broad preventative cardiology standpoint.
Um, um, for a few years into, um, my biopharmaceutical, um. Work and, um, and really enjoyed it. Uh, eventually I found that, um, my, um, my biopharma development work, um, was essentially satisfying, um, a very important piece of what I needed to feel like I was making, uh, a difference and bringing again, the ultimate sort of lighthouse at the end of, you know, a dark tunnel, um, for me is, you know, am I, am I, Achieving my purpose, am I having impact on improving the lives of people around me?
And the work that I did in bio pharma, I eventually came to, uh, realize and be quite satisfied with achieve that purpose. So I found the need to do clinical day to day work less and less. And so I’ve gradually, you know, sort of wound that down. Um, and that’s, you know, that’s probably common for many physicians, I think, who enter the pharma space.
Some actually give it up entirely. Um, right off the bat. And that’s part of, um, another part of the journey. Um, I think it’s different for each individual. Um, and there are some who continue it all throughout their, their pharma, uh, careers where, you know, they still see, uh, or teach, uh, in medical schools or have important roles, um, uh, in, uh, an academic setting.
Um, so I, I think, you know, we frequently think about these as a dichotomy, but I, I actually think it’s a false dichotomy. It’s something that can, can coexist. Um, there, there, uh, is crosstalk between academia, clinical and biopharma industry work. It’s necessary for effective drug development. Um, and, um, I would hope that it continues to be fluid and that those walls, you know, do not get thicker or taller.
If
Naji Gehchan: you will, I said, I certainly agree with you, um, Adam on this and, um, it’s, it’s important to keep those instructions. And as you said, the impact is just different, right? And what you will be able to do it instead of being. On the frontline, it’s obviously helping more patients by, you know, two steps, maybe further away, but you’re still helping and bringing impact, uh, on, on people.
Uh, so how are you ensuring, because we talked a lot and we’re obviously always passionate about the impacts you have on patients at the end of the day. That’s why we do what we do. How do we bring this to life? With your teams on a daily basis, constantly having to juggle the operational things like a lot of, uh, really tactical pieces.
And how do you make sure that your team is always centered around the patient at the end of
Adam Castano: the day? Yeah. Yeah. So I love that question. And this is something I actually share often with my teams. Um, first I, I tell everyone that I work with, if you’re in the meeting and you’re. You find yourself discussing something or being asked to do something or, um, you know, uh, you’re, you’re, you become pulled into something that doesn’t quite jive with, you know, your personal mantra of, hey, uh, am I achieving my purpose?
Am I, um, is this ultimately going to, uh, create. You know, a meaningful advancement for the grander purpose of bringing breakthroughs, um, forward to patients, then don’t don’t do it and tell everyone that Adam said, it’s okay not to do it. Um, and and and so. You know, again, it means, you know, hey, maybe this meeting got off track.
Let’s refocus on sort of what what is the most meaningful thing we can accomplish here. Right? And so that’s sort of the North star. I think that should guide. Uh, I hope guides all of, um, the folks I work with and. And it certainly does, um, the, the 2nd piece, I would say is, um, this is something I share a lot and comes back to sort of the earlier childhood sort of heart brain connection that when we do something, I think there’s an important.
Um, uh, interactivity there where it has to make intellectual sense, it has to be logical and, but it also has to be driven from a place of heart, a place of passion. If it’s missing any of those elements, then it’s, it’s going to fall flat. And so any initiative that we embark upon any project, any work, any PowerPoint presentation, um, you know, memo meeting, whatever it is that you might have it, um, it has to accomplish those 3 core things.
Does it help patients at the end of the day? Does it meet intellectual rigor and is there heart and passion behind it? So those, those are sort of my 3. Big things that I try to impart. Um, they’re, they’re. You know, overarching big concepts, I think, uh, maybe get talked about, um, in different ways. Um, but for me, I’ve found that they, they seem to resonate and, um, and bring about, um, productivity.
I love
Naji Gehchan: that, uh, help patient. It doesn’t make sense scientifically, intellectually and heart, and it goes back to your very first story with your parents, right? You said heart and mind, and you’re taking this and putting it through your career and life. That’s great. I’m going to give you now a word, and I would love your reaction to it.
And the first one
Adam Castano: is leadership.
It’s a big word. It’s loaded in many ways, but, um, I think the 1st subset of words that come to mind are those that center or cluster, if you will, around the concept of, um, character. Um, and that’s also a loaded word, but, um. You know, I think all of us seek to, um, lead meaningful lives that are centered in, um, you know, doing the right thing, um, some moral center, right?
Uh, or, um, a compass, if you will. And that can mean different things for different people. Um. But leadership, I think, is not any different from that. I think character is, is inherently a very important piece of leadership. Um, people tend to want to follow leaders who they feel display, you know, ethical and moral character.
Um, people who are driven by, you know, values that are, um, clearly communicated and I think resonate with with others. Um, and so that’s, that’s, uh, I think probably the 1st piece of this that that comes to mind. The 2nd, 1 is
Naji Gehchan: health
Adam Castano: equity, health equity. Um, that is, um, again, another, you know, commonly discussed concept.
Um, but is increasingly more and more important now, perhaps now, you know, more now than ever before. Um, it. It means not just, you know, um, getting people, um, equitable care, but also, um, in clinical trials, you know, from where I sit, um, ensuring that the drugs we test. Are tested in as broad a population as possible in order to answer the scientific question at hand and to be able to say broadly this drug was shown to work in X, Y, or Z population.
So, therefore, based on again, go back to the scientific method and here, you know, it makes logical sense to do this. And also there’s part and passion behind it. Um, we can tell you it works in, you know, this subgroup of the population, this set of ethnicities, this, uh, country, this geography, et cetera. And so, um.
Talked about a lot needs to be talked about even more. Uh, and more more than talk action upon an actual, um, you know, um, workflows and clinical trial goals, um, that we set forth for ourselves. Um,
Naji Gehchan: I love that. You’re bringing that. I don’t have, um, obviously I, you know, we spontaneously think about access.
and equity in access and also equitable health care. And I’ve been working a lot, uh, on, uh, equity in clinical trials. It’s such an important, uh, it’s such an important topic. And We will never do enough, but making sure that we have a diverse population within our clinical trials, both to bring access.
Sometimes clinical trials are the best option patients would have in the current schema of treatment. And exactly, as you said, also to make sure that whatever we’re developing has its effect as we are envisioning, not only at a broader population, but really at the different, for different. People, right?
And, uh, ethical, uh, art is super important. So thanks for sharing that.
Adam Castano: Yeah. Yeah. And thanks for bringing the access piece up to that’s that’s obviously a critical piece of the equation as well. The 3rd word is Lego Lego. Um, my 5 year old loves Legos. Um, that’s the 1st idea comes to mind, but I will say. Um, I love Legos too, actually.
Um, I know
Naji Gehchan: we both share this passion of Lego. This is why I saw this.
Adam Castano: So Lego, I find Lego actually to be a little bit like yoga. There’s a Zen to it. Um, you know, there’s a process. Um, and in order to achieve this higher state of sort of Lego mastery, if you will, you know, become a Lego Yoda master, you have to buy into the philosophy of There’s, there’s an order and a process, right?
And so you can’t just build the unstructure by throwing all the pieces, you know, into a bowl and, you know, trying to replicate the picture that you see on the box. You have to open the manual. You have to understand the steps. You have to sort the pieces. You have to put them, you know, in different categories before you even begin.
And then once you start, it makes the process a lot easier. You take things in little pieces, and that’s kind of what we do in biopharma. Um, right. You, you don’t just magically think of a molecule and, you know, go to the pharmacy and say, Hey, let’s, let’s make this pill. Um, there is. A intricate, an intricate process, um, that is much akin to Lego building, I would say.
So I actually love that, that, um, that, that concept.
Naji Gehchan: That’s, that’s a great analogy. And yeah, I never thought of it purely from a process. And it certainly is, right? Like there is this creativity, the process, the creation that you do. So I, I love what you’re sharing. The last one is spread love in organizations.
Adam Castano: Yeah, yeah, I think that speaks to, um, you know, we hear this concept, a lot of authenticity, um, um, being, you know, again, and this gets back to the sort of moral centeredness of things and character. And if, if we share bits and pieces of our personal stories, um, our authentic selves with those who we interact and work with on a daily level.
Uh, I think others will feel that sense of community, um, and, um, it helps build ties, right? Important ties that are necessary, um, to make teams effective and functional. Um, and, uh. And ultimately, I would venture to say, perhaps loving, um, you know, that’s a, it’s a, it’s a big leap there, but those are the most effective teams, I think, where you kind of feel the love, uh, everywhere, um, there’s joy and camaraderie, um, and, uh, a true, um, sort of looking forwardness, if you will, positivity to doing the day to day work is needed.
Any final word of
Naji Gehchan: wisdom for healthcare
Adam Castano: leaders around the world? I’m sorry. What was this? Do
Naji Gehchan: you have any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders
Adam Castano: around the world? Yeah. I don’t know if they’re words of wisdom. They may just be words, but, um, one thing I think, I hope, um, we see a lot more of, uh, in healthcare leaders and this spans the gamut, not just in biopharma, I would say all healthcare leaders within all healthcare industries is, again, purpose, keep the patients first.
It is, does this. New initiative patients and how will it do that? And how will it make lives better? Is this is there an intellectual thorough rigorous process that has been put behind? This new initiative that we’ve done our homework, you know, so to speak, um, and 3rd, um, love and passion, right? Again, it’s it’s tying the 3.
It’s a marriage. I think I’m happy triumvirate of 3 things that, um. That I hope if, if are at the forefront of everyone’s, uh, mind and their day to day work, I think can ultimately help, help us get to a better state, um, uh, for everyone.
Naji Gehchan: What a great summary, Adam. I’m really thankful to you for being with me today and it was great to connect again.Adam Castano: Thank you. Thank you, Naji. Really, really enjoyed it!
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this episode joined today by Vinit Nijhawan a strategic visionary who has conceived and built several technology organizations that have been acquired by companies such as Boeing, Motorola and Qualcomm. Vinit is an admired leader and mentor who has built or inherited and then effectively managed several high-performance teams. He has worked in many industries: computing, aerospace, logistics, medical devices, biopharma, synthetic biology, and others. In 2008, Vinit intentionally pivoted his career from technology entrepreneur and CEO, to helping other entrepreneurs with a special focus on academia. He began teaching Entrepreneurship at Boston University and subsequently led the Office of Technology Development from 2010-2016. In this role, Vinit participated in several BU committees and organizations and has represented BU on several boards and business plan/grant review panels. Subsequently, Vinit took the OTD experience and launched a national academic IP monetization program with 40 institutions engaged, including UC Berkeley and UCLA. He launched Waterloo Alumni Angels at his alma mater. Most recently, Vinit is the Managing Director of MassVentures.
Vinit, It is such an honor to have you with me today!
Vinit Nijhawan: It’s my pleasure.
Naji Gehchan: First, can you please share with us your personal story, and what’s in between the lines of your inspiring journey?
Vinit Nijhawan: Well, you know, truthfully, uh, when people look at my LinkedIn, it, it looks very confusing because there’s a lot of stuff there, but really my story has been a very simple one.
So, um, I started my first company as an engineering student at the University of Waterloo in Canada. And, uh, Subsequently, uh, was part of five startups. Um, three years CEO and they were all in, um, obviously tech startups, but specifically in aerospace and telecom. That’s what I did for 25 years. And then 15 years ago, I decided to move from being a parent, as I call it, you know, running companies to becoming a grandparent, helping other entrepreneurs run their companies, you know, with successfully.
And that really took two directions. Um, one was teaching at Boston university. And the other was investing and the teaching kind of led to running the tech transfer office at Boston University for five years, where we launched eight venture backed companies, primarily in life sciences and healthcare.
So as you
Naji Gehchan: founded several startups, you scaled them, exited them. And I love now how you talk about being a parent and a grandparent, helping other launch their companies. Uh, what is for you, or is there even a magic formula that you think makes startups a successful venture?
Vinit Nijhawan: Man, that, if I had the answer to that question, I’d be a billionaire right now.
You know, that magic formula. But look, ultimately, there are three things that conspire, right? It’s a good team, a good technology, and the right timing for a market. right timings for markets is very, very hard to figure out. Uh, good technology is important, but you know, there’s so much good technology in the world.
So it really comes down to the team, in my opinion. So, uh, I put a lot of emphasis on the team, even when I make investment decisions. And so can you,
Naji Gehchan: yeah, sorry, I was going to ask you, can you tell us a little bit more about, uh, about what you look at? For a team, a founding team, what are the capabilities you look at?
What are the specificities beyond capabilities?
Vinit Nijhawan: Maybe. Yeah, so, uh, you know, number one, um, it’s helpful if it’s more than one person, right? So I don’t know what the ideal size of a startup team is, but I, I think a team of three I find to be, you know, quite an effective, you know, startup team size. The other thing, you know, you’re looking for are the right kind of qualities and.
Um, in particular, the one thing that I look for are, um, people that are coachable, because, you know, there’s always a lot to learn, you know, when, when, when you’re a startup, and especially if you’re a first time entrepreneur. The second is, um, the best entrepreneurs in, in my mind, um, are those ones who are like this perfect combination of determ Determined, yet flexible.
So what does that mean? You know, I think the way, I’ll use an analogy which might sound funny. But, uh, excuse me one second. But it’s, you know, it’s what the Buddha taught us, right? What the Buddha taught us is that there are many paths to the truth, but there’s only one truth. It’s the same in startups.
Right? There are many paths to a startup. Any startup, you will find you need to be determined about the end result. So you’ve decided what your vision is or what you’re trying, what pain your point you’re trying to solve. That’s your fixed point. That’s your truth, but there’ll be lots of little pivots.
You know, in different paths, you have to take to get to it. So that’s the flexibility. So you have to be sort of completely focused on that end point, but you want to be flexible enough because you’re listening to the market all the time and trying to do those little pivots, right? And if you’re smart, you do a lot of small pivots.
If you haven’t done it well, you have to do some big pivots, and that really kills companies.
Naji Gehchan: So, talking about companies, you shared that you also look into, um, into healthcare now, companies. Can, is it, is there anything different in those that you look for, or do you think what you shared, and I love this mix of determined, flexible, team of three, coachable, is it kind of like the same makeup regardless of the industry you’re in, in other words?
Vinit Nijhawan: I think it’s the same makeup. Um, you know, I think what’s different about healthcare is unlike other big markets, you know, like pick anything, you know, consumer goods or, you know, cars or, uh, you know, real estate. Those markets by and large function the same way all over the world. Healthcare, however, doesn’t.
Healthcare functions very differently, you know, in different countries. And so, you know, you have to be very knowledgeable and cognizant of the fact that it operates very differently in different countries. Um, so you need a team, I think, that has some knowledge of the country they’re in and how, how it functions.
And, and, of course, that, that leads to the fact that, you know, if you can’t be a global player, because each Nation has its own health care system, and you’ve got to be in a big enough market opportunity, right? So the U. S. Is about half the market for pretty much anything in healthcare, whether it’s new drugs or new medical devices.
Um, so the US market is a very important one, but it functions very differently than, you know, say the Canadian market or, or you know, parts of the European market. Sure.
Naji Gehchan: I, I, I totally agree that differences in. Healthcare, uh, in each one of the countries is, is always an interesting challenge when you’re looking at global companies.
I’ve been into different markets, different geographies. It’s, it’s different, even though at the end, the purpose is the same, right? We’re trying to make life better for patients, but I agree how you get there and the regulations are always very different.
Vinit Nijhawan: Not just the regulations, but how you get paid.
Yeah, that is like a big piece of it.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. So you also, as you shared, uh, you also that team successfully and had very high performing team and, um, in tech and telecom, uh, before moving into, uh, investing and, and being, uh, being a professor, uh, at BU, uh, how did you personally. Let teams and how did you define high performing team and how did you let those what is your biggest learning?
Um, I’d love to hear more about that.
Vinit Nijhawan: Yeah, and and look let’s be clear. It was an evolution, right? It wasn’t like I woke up one day and became a great leader It took a lot of You know, learning and coaching along the way, I just started early. And, um, look, I mean, first and foremost, you know, a leader has to be very clear about that vision, about that truth that I talked about earlier, right?
So be very clear in your mind of what that is, because now you’ve got to articulate it to not just the people you’re trying to hire, but also your customers and, you know, investors and others. So if you’re very clear about what that endpoint is now, you can sort of work backwards and say, okay, what does my team have to, you know, look like, what are my investors have to look like, right?
Who are my early adopter customers? So you, you want to figure all that out before you start hiring people for your team, because, you know, you want to have a, a really good picture and some people call it a business plan of where you’re trying to get to. And, um, and, you know, once you have sort of a clear business plan, now you can think about what kind of people you want around you to help you.
So,
Naji Gehchan: so talking about people, if I want to be more specific, there is, you know, through the 80 plus interviews I already had in this, uh, in this podcast, uh, there is different views about complementarity of a team. Uh, some ideas about you need a team that build obviously trust, but how you can build also conflict sometimes that are positive and ends up with innovation.
I’d love to hear like, as you’re building team, what is the construct you usually look for?
Vinit Nijhawan: Yeah. You know, so the one thing I’ve also learned is that, um, different cultures Bring, you know, sort of different views of how you construct your team. So, you know, the U. S. is a very professional culture, right?
Which means, if I hire a VP of sales, or I hire a CFO, or I hire a VP of engineering, I can almost certainly find somebody who’s done that role before. And I don’t, I don’t have to hire somebody that I know personally, or I’ve worked with before. It can be somebody completely out of the blue that I’ve hired.
And immediately once I hire them, they’re inside the trust envelope, right? Because it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of a very professional market. That’s not always the case everywhere, right? And, um, so, you know, I’ll give an example. I find a lot of European companies, French companies particularly, when they’re expanding to the U.
S. They will send one of their trusted people from Europe to come and establish themselves here, right? But do not know the market here at all and I try to explain to them that listen if you hire somebody here a business development person or vice president of sales Once you’ve hired them, they’re, they’re, there’s no conflict, they’re not going to go anywhere else.
They’re only going to be dedicated to you because that’s the kind of professional, you know, workforce there is here. And people find that hard to understand because I think in many other cultures, you know, you, you want, you first have trust and then you think about, you know, the roles. Um, I, I, I think it should be the other way around.
I think the trust, trust develops. First you think about the absolute right people for each role that you’re hiring for. The best. And then, then a good leader builds the trust, you know.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, yeah, I love those. You’re touching several points on cultural differences, leadership within cultural differences, and then how you build trust, obviously, which is, you know, do you start with trust?
How do you deal with trust is trust something that you just say, okay, we trust one another and it works or not. So it’s, it’s really a powerful
Vinit Nijhawan: voice you’re bringing. Yeah. And look, I mean, the reality is for any leader, trust is constantly earned. So it’s not static. I mean, you’re, you know, you’re constantly, people are always looking at you to see, okay, you’ve defined this truth.
Is it really, or are you like shifting, you know, so there’s, there are a lot, you’d be surprised. I mean, people are very astute. Yeah. They can figure out whether a leader really believes in the direction or doesn’t. Oh, for sure.
Naji Gehchan: For sure. And as you said, it’s, you know, it’s always so hard to get to this trust, but it’s, it, you can’t destroy it in fractions of seconds.
So there’s always this. Yeah. As a leader, do you really stand for what you’re saying and do you really believe in what you’re saying? I love this framing. What I’ll go to now, Vinit, I want to give you a word and I’d love a reaction to it. And so the first word is leadership.
Vinit Nijhawan: Uh, well, you know, I think it’s, it’s, it’s an overused word. Um, but you know, the, so let me use a little example. So when I first kind of moved into a big office, space, I, I wanted to be, have my office be in the same place as everybody else. And all the employees basically pushed back on that and wanted to put me into a corner office.
And, you know, what you realize is that, that hierarchy is something that, you know, I just fundamentally exists in, in, in human nature. Um, so, you know, so that’s why the word leadership, I think, has become important because Ultimately, you know, people are looking for a person, both people below that person, by below I mean kind of the ones who are executing, as well as the people above, you know, who are investing.
So, That’s what leadership means to me as an individual. So did you, did you
Naji Gehchan: end up accepting it? Uh, I’d love to double click on this, you know, with the example you gave of
Vinit Nijhawan: being in the Yeah, I ended up accepting the corner office, yeah. Okay, so you
Naji Gehchan: don’t, you just, so how, how is your view now on hierarchy?
Did it change? Do you think it’s something that is here? You’re saying it’s fundamental for human
Vinit Nijhawan: nature. Yeah, I don’t think it’s changed. You know, people, people talk about kind of Millennials and Gen Z and you know, how They want to have a lot more say which Look at what’s happened Twitter, right or some of these tech companies.
Of course people want to have a say and they might be More willing to be verbal, but I don’t think that’s changed, you know Look, I’ve always find that there’s three types of people in organization, right? There’s Um, you know, they’re the type who understand the direction of the company and are bought into it, right, vocally.
Then there are the people who vocally dissent, right, for very legitimate reasons. They don’t buy into it, but are very vocal about it. Those are really good people to know because you want, you want to be open minded and listen to them. You don’t want to fire them like Muff does, right? Every time somebody says something bad about Twitter, he fires them.
From his team. The third type, which I think is the most dangerous, is the silent opposition. And that exists in every organization. So there are people who don’t believe in the vision or the direction of the company, but aren’t vocal about it. But, but they, they aren’t vocal about it to the leadership or broadly, but they’re the ones who are gossiping and, you know, saying things.
Next to the water cooler. Those are the people you have to find and root out.
So the
Naji Gehchan: second word I’d love a reaction to is entrepreneurship.
Vinit Nijhawan: So another overused word, um, it’s, it’s, it’s interesting if you, if you look at what the, all the universities are doing is, um, they don’t use entrepreneurship as much anymore. Now what they use is a term called the entrepreneurial mindset.
Because most of the people, you know, doing MBAs, for example, aren’t going to go to startups. They’re going to go to bigger companies, but these bigger companies want that entrepreneurial mindset as well. And so, so what is an entrepreneurial mindset? I mean, basically, it’s someone who is always questioning the status quo, right?
That, that is what a good entrepreneur is. You’re always questioning the status quo. In other words, You’re constantly thinking about better ways to do things, right? And that’s what an entrepreneurial mindset is, that even within a company, you’re always thinking, well, how can this be improved? I mean, if you’re a surgeon, you know, you’re all the good, the really good entrepreneurial mindset surgeons are always thinking, okay, What if I had this instrument instead of this instrument?
I could do my job faster and better. Right? Now, the hard part becomes going from an N of 1, where, you know, you, you know that your life would be better if you had this change or this product or whatever. Now you’ve got to find out whether there’s a hundred other people like you that feel the same. And that’s what a lot of entrepreneurs have a hard time with, especially the technical entrepreneurs.
I, I used to be like that too. You know, you just said, Hey, this is a better technology. I know it’s a better technology, so everybody else must know it’s a better technology, but that’s not how it works, right? You have to go out there and, and do your customer discovery. So, um, I don’t know. I may have used too many words for my response to entrepreneurship, but no,
Naji Gehchan: it’s great.
It’s great. Uh, the third one is Ana Preta. Sorry, am am I pronouncing it correctly? Ana Preta, you broke up again. I saw you pr Vanna Preta. I saw you practice. This on LinkedIn, but I might be mispronouncing
Vinit Nijhawan: it. Okay. Hold on. Now. I’m let me just is it on my LinkedIn? Yeah, let me just take a quick look.
I think I don’t know what you’re talking about. Make sure I get that, right?
Maybe if a vein
Naji Gehchan: of Presto
Vinit Nijhawan: Or is it?
Let me tell you wait a second wise. Yeah, just put in the chat. So Yeah. Oh, here it is.
Oh, Vana Presta. Yes, I’ve put it. Um, I mean, I, I think it’s a Sanskrit word if I remember correctly. Uh, that’s, uh, a lot like, um, um, well, you, you talk about servant leader, right? So, uh, so Vana Presta is, is, So in Hinduism, there are four stages in your life, right? And, um, so, uh, vanaprastha is the third stage.
So your first stage, brahmacharya, is as a student. Your second stage, grihastha, is as a family person, right? Where you’re like, like you’re, you know, like you’re creating a family with children. And I have. Vanaprastha is when you’re giving back. It’s your giving back stage of your life. And then you’re the last stage, which is very controversial, is your sannyasa stage where you give it all up and become an ascetic, right?
To get nirvana, you put on a, you know, you put on the saffron robe and you beg for your food and you, you own nothing. Okay, that’s the
Naji Gehchan: hardest. That’s the controversial piece. Yeah, so, so, and I saw on LinkedIn, you talk about empathy and practicing panaprastha. Hey, I’d love to hear more about how you think of this.
Vinit Nijhawan: Yeah. So, I mean, so fundamentally in the first two stages, you know, you’ve built up a lot of knowledge, maybe some wealth. And, and your third stage of on a process stage is when you take that knowledge and wealth and you spread it to other people. Right. And, um, and there’s, of course, many ways to do that.
Um, the way I’ve practice it is teaching and investing because I think they’re both. Very relevant, because in both, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re passing your knowledge on, but you’re also passing wealth on, right? And, uh, you know, because, frankly, I want my students to become wealthy, right? I mean, that’s Um, you know, part of the goal of passing them knowledge.
Um, so empathy, uh, let me back up. So, so I, I’ve created this top 10 qualities of a successful entrepreneur, you know, Letterman style. Um, and, uh, my number one quality is generosity. Right. Empathy is in there too, but I think generosity in some ways is the ultimate empathy and what I mean by generosity is like all the best entrepreneurs are very generous, they’re generous with their time, they’re generous to their family, they’re generous with their stock options.
They’re generous to their customers. They’ll never let their customers down. Um, and so I think generosity is, is a very critical quality of, you know, of a good leader. Yeah, I love how
Naji Gehchan: you said it. Generosity is the ultimate empathy. I’ll take this one.
Vinit Nijhawan: Yeah.
Naji Gehchan: The last word is spread love and
Vinit Nijhawan: organizations. Uh, you know, so I, you know, it’s interesting.
I, I’m, I’m a very sort of, um, physical person, right? So, um, you know, I’m always hogging my employees and, you know, just having that sense of, of connectivity. And, you know, the world has changed a lot and people, you know, even my wife says, you know, you really shouldn’t be doing so much of that because, you know, you’re going to get yourself into trouble, you know, um, with the Me Too movement and all that.
And I said, look, people always know when it’s genuine. Do you know what I’m saying? Yeah. So, there is a sense of genuineness that people are very attuned to. And, uh, so first and foremost, I think, you know, love comes from being genuine where you’re genuinely interested in these other people in their success.
You’re generally interested in, uh, their career growth. Like, I literally sit down with all my people and the first question I always ask is, okay, where do you see yourself five years from now? Where do you see yourself 10 years from now? And you know, and then look, how can we work together to, to get you on that path, right?
Five years from now, you may not be working in this company. You could be somewhere else. So let’s figure out what the best way is of getting you there. Right. So, so I think that kind of genuineness. In helping people with their careers. That’s the ultimate love in organizations.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. Thanks for that. And yeah, many times we, we refer to it genuine care on this podcast.
Many talked about this and I still believe in it. So thanks for, for your words about it. Any final word of wisdom for leaders around the world.
Vinit Nijhawan: Yeah, I think that, um, especially in healthcare, there is a huge opportunity for change. And, um, you know, healthcare has been around for centuries, right? If not millennia.
If you look at the old texts Uh, Chinese texts or Indian texts. People were practicing fairly advanced healthcare 5, 000 years ago.
We’ve lost a lot of that knowledge, right? And you know, like for example, a simple thing like diagnosis. That, that family doctor, you know, who had the pattern recognition, who could diagnose just by looking at you, looking inside your throat, feeling your pulse, feeling your temperature or whatever, that’s gone now, and now we’re, we’re dependent on instruments and blood draws and, you know, all those things.
And in some ways, you know, diagnosis is so poor in today’s healthcare system all over the world, and that Creates an enormous amount of cost the healthcare system because if you start with misdiagnosis, then you’re just going to spend money on the wrong things. And so, um, so I think there’s a huge opportunity for new leaders in healthcare to evolve our healthcare system to truly being one, you know, that’s not fixing problems, but, uh, you know, but being ahead, you know, it’s really it is.
Yeah. sort of wellness, right? Not surgery. So, I mean, we need surgery too, but, you know, there’s enormous lack of wellness in human society that needs to be rectified. And we need the leaders, you know, who recognize that. And we’re starting to see that in the younger generation. Yeah. Yeah.
Naji Gehchan: And it touches all preventive medicine, well being. general health. And, uh, I totally convey with you on this. Thank you so much again for being with me today. It’s been such a pleasure.
Vinit Nijhawan: Of course, Naji.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, honored to be joined today by Richard Dale a seasoned, values-driven executive known for his strategic acumen and operational excellence. He has consistently delivered proven results by translating vision into market realities in startup, large company, and non-profit contexts. Richard currently specializes in Executive and Leadership Coaching, Health Sector Advisory, Impact Consulting, and Team/Culture Facilitation. Until recently, Richard held executive roles within Optum (part of UnitedHealth Group) for over ten years, where he played a pivotal leadership role in founding and operating OptumLabs, and subsequently as a Senior Vice President for Health System Alliances in Optum, leading efforts for multi-billion-dollar cross-enterprise partnerships and innovation collaborations. Beyond his professional work, Richard serves as on different non-profit boards touching healthcare, environment, and global peace initiatives.
Richard, It is so great to see you again and have you with me today!
Richard Dale: Thank you very much, Naji. It’s great to be here.
Naji Gehchan: I remember our first chat where we were passionately debating AI in healthcare and what this next decade will bring us when we combine computational science to lifescience! Let’s take though some steps back, how did you get into healthcare and leading teams transforming its ecosystem?
Richard Dale: Well, I realized recently that I am on career number five. So, uh, I’m originally from the UK, but my wife and I moved to the States many years ago. Now, um, my first career, I was, uh, a techie. I was a software engineer and a database engineer.
Uh, and number two, I was an entrepreneur. Um, number three, I worked in venture capital for over a dozen years. And then I joined optimum United Health Group, and I was a health care executive there for over 10 years. And now I’m an executive coach and strategic advisor. So
I think looking back, you can always draw a line. Maybe it wasn’t so clear looking forward. But, um, a good friend, Paul Bleicher, um, invited me to co found PhaseForward, um, back in the mid nineties, and that was the, um, the startup that he and I co founded, and that was, um, that developed internet based, uh, electronic data capture for clinical trials.
Uh, and we sold mostly to the pharmaceutical industry and the CROs. Um, and really, that was the first time I was involved in something related to healthcare. Uh, and I was working with Paul, who’s an MD PhD, um, who taught me a lot about healthcare broadly and the pharmaceutical industry and clinical trials in particular.
And from that, when I moved into venture capital, um, I was, you know, seen as the healthcare expert, even though I had a pretty narrow view of what that was back then. But because of that, I got to see more healthcare tech, um, as that came through our pipeline. And the firm I was at invested horizontally across all industries in, in, um, technology, but we had a few.
Health tech investments. And I was involved in many of those in certain ways. Um, and we were very involved back in those venture capital days looking at big data. And so I was interested in the intersection of big data and health care. Um, and my good friend, Paul, who I had co founded face forward with, um, and I was very interested in the intersection of big data and health care.
Um, he had gone on to, uh, to Humedica as Chief Medical Officer and that company was acquired by Optum and then he was tapped to lead Optum Labs and he brought me in, um, to be Chief Operating Officer at Optum Labs. And I did that for a few years. And after Paul retired, I then took over running Optum Labs.
And Optum Labs was an innovation collaboration. Research and innovation collaboration with 30 or more leading healthcare institutions around the country, starting with Mayo Clinic. Interestingly, AARP was one of our core partners, and then academic medical centers, disease foundations, government agencies, uh, and other players in the health ecosystem working together to generate new insights from healthcare data to improve the system.
And so that’s kind of the path that I took over the years.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks for sharing this. And it’s, it’s fascinating. You’ve built team, uh, in a startup. You obviously led in a big corporate groups. You partnered with external groups and now you’re coaching execs on how to lead better and build team. And I know it’s one of your passions, building high performing teams to deliver for patients.
Can you share with us? How you personally did that and what are the key advices or key learnings that you take with you from
Richard Dale: a leadership standpoint? I think, um, you know, I describe myself as, uh, coming to really understand leadership, um, late in my career, really only 10 years. Before that, I would say I was an unconscious leader.
I think I was, I was an okay leader. Some people would say good things about my leadership, um, stretching back over the years, but I really got to grips with it, um, actually during my time at United, um, and through the opportunities they provided me, um, to really see leadership from multiple perspectives.
Um, and I’m going to tell a very short story, and this is, um, many of your, uh, subscribers and listeners may, uh, be familiar with this. David Foster Wallace told a story at the beginning of a commencement speech back in 2005, and it’s called the This is Water story. And the story goes that there are two young fish swimming along one morning, and they pass an older fish swimming in the other direction.
And the older fish says to the younger fish. Hey kids, how’s the water? And they pass each other and they each keep on swimming. And then one of the younger fish says to the other one after a few minutes, What’s water? And, you know, the story illustrates very beautifully how, um, there are, there’s an environment we’re all swimming in, which we don’t really notice, or even know what it is.
Um, because it, it’s all around us and it’s always there. And, In leadership or in an organizational environment, you know, one could say that the water we’re all swimming in is culture, but organizational culture is not so invisible anymore. Maybe 10, 15, 20 years ago it was, but nowadays most people are aware.
As they join an organization or they’re part of an organization, they will talk about culture. So culture is visible. My philosophy is that leadership is what shapes culture and leadership is that invisible, um, medium, which generates the currents, which often, very often, nobody really sees. And as you become a more conscious leader, as you know, if I can use that phrase, you begin to understand that, uh, as a leader, you’re responsible for shaping that environment.
And so you have to see what is invisible, um, so that you can shape it. And so, um, that now, you know, underlies my approach to leadership. I think, you know, with that goes, um, understanding your own values and being true to those. Um, and, uh, understanding some of the levers of leadership, which, you know, become a little bit more mechanical.
Um, but once you start to see leadership, then you understand how those leaders work. Does that answer the question?
Naji Gehchan: Yes. Yes. And I want to double click on, uh, on this and really on the culture piece. I, I certainly relate to what you said and I love how you framed that leadership is the invisible medium creates culture.
Uh, so you’ve, you’ve done and you created culture throughout different organizations. Um, and really organizations that were driving. innovation in healthcare, which is sometimes some people would say it’s easy to innovate and some others say it’s so regulated, it’s so hard. And I think it’s both right.
Both are right. I’m interested on how you have done this and what type of leadership or what was the most important ingredient that you had in the culture to be able to have high performing teams that are innovating
Richard Dale: in healthcare space?
I think that, um, and that’s a great question. I think there’s a mixture of two or three things and, and, uh, nothing I’ll offer here is, you know, brand new to anybody. I don’t think it’s, um. You know, it starts off, you know, it’s great to have a high performing team and great people who are committed to the mission.
Um, and so there’s an element of hiring, um, which goes into that, um, alongside that goes psychological safety on a team and an example I give that people talk about psychological safety, um, and we kind of know what it is, but it’s not necessarily clear how we create that. What does it mean to you. allow for failure to celebrate failure, um, to allow people to have opinions and express opinions, which might be different from what the leaders or what people think the leaders might might believe.
Um, so one example. Which I put in place at OptumLabs and I had used previously, um, is a root cause analysis, discipline and process. So, um, if something went wrong, which it did, you know, all the time, um, we would do a root cause analysis. Now, if something went right, we would also do what we called an after action review, um, which whether or not things went well, we would, you know, inspect what we did to learn how to do it better the next time.
And if it was a great success, then let’s, um, distill out what did we do well so that we can repeat it. But in particular, if something went wrong, um, we did a root cause analysis, and we were very clear that, um, we were not looking to blame an individual. That if something goes wrong in any organization, it’s a system failure.
And if we’re relying on an individual to be at the top of their game and remember everything in their head, Um, that’s a system failure, you know, everybody’s favorite, um, analogy is with the airline industry, which is everything has a checklist. So, at its simplest, you know, why are we asking somebody to remember what three things to do when they could have a checklist?
Um, why are we asking people to remember who to tell what when we could have a checklist? A racy chart, you know, who are we supposed to consult with? Who are we supposed to inform? Um, why are we making decisions, you know, based on opinion and anecdote when we could be looking at data, or we could be all looking at the same strategic criteria and scoring rubrics.
And so these root cause analyses would look at what went well and what went wrong and what was lacking in the system. And we would say over and over again, we’re not looking to blame anybody. And even if it looks like when we do this analysis that one person happened to be. You know, standing there when something bad happened or their action or inaction was a key part of the chain of events.
We can’t expect to rely to have a system succeed by relying on an individual to remember or be on the top of their game. What are we doing to support those people? And then we would separately say that doesn’t take away the responsibility and accountability for managers. To have expectations for their team and to do performance evaluations, um, at least on an annual basis, and to share feedback and to help to grow their people.
But managing an individual and their performance is separate from root cause analysis and, um, uh, at United Health Group has at many large organizations. We had a big matrixed organization, so we were working with, um, partners from other parts of the organization, and in particular we worked with, um, people in IT and data management, um, but also in compliance and in finance, and in those kind of organizations, people can be very quick to blame somebody from the other organization.
Oh, it’s their fault. Um, and so when we started doing root cause analyses, not only did I have to reassure people within OptumLabs that I was not looking to blame any one of them, I had to reassure our partners from other parts of the organization that we were not looking to shift the blame to them. Um, and over time, you know, I just made everybody do these root cause analyses over and over again, even on very small issues, as much to get into the habit of doing it and to Demonstrate that nobody was getting blamed and nobody was getting negative consequences for analyzing correctly what we could do better next time.
So that’s a long answer about psychological safety. Um, and then I’ll pick on one other facet. There are probably many more. Um, you know, how do we stay open and curious to innovative ideas?
And that’s learned as well. Um, so the little parable version of this is, you know, somebody comes into the office and comes into my office and says, Richard, we should paint the walls lime green. That’s an innovative idea. Right? We’re going to paint the walls lime green. And I, the first thing in my head is, why do we need to paint the walls at all?
And why lime green? And it’s the wrong color. And we don’t want the paint smell. And why is this innovative at all? Um, and when people come to us with innovative ideas. It’s very easy to fall into that kind of critical, judgmental expert, you’re using your expertise to immediately see that, um, the things which could be wrong with an idea.
So one trick I offer people is before you give voice to that, ask the person with the idea, what did you observe that led you to that idea? Did you see a problem or an opportunity? Really, what did you observe? And in this example, the person says, well, the walls are all crumbling, so we need to fix them and paint them.
And it’s like, okay, I may or may not like the idea of painting the walls, and I may or may not like the idea of painting them lime green, but I understand there’s a problem if the walls are crumbling, and that is something that we can work on together. And so trying to get under the thinking and honor the fact that a person is trying to come up with a solution and not just point out a problem, right?
Everybody’s told, don’t show up in my office with just a problem, bring me ideas. So ask, what’s the opportunity? What’s the challenge? What’s the problem? Now you have a conversation where innovative ideas, um, can be discussed. And even if you have to give a little bit of coaching to somebody, which is, well, you know, the corporate color is Blue, you know, well done for noticing that the walls are crumbling.
Let’s think about how we can fix that. One last thing I will say about health care, innovation in health care. There are many very large opportunities to innovate in health care. And the reality in health care is very often the best we can hope for is incremental innovation. And I think that we need to honor that and be realistic about that.
And we need to have a big vision and we need to keep our eyes on the prize. And we need to be okay with incremental improvement and incremental innovation, because changing healthcare involves. You know, organizational change. It potentially and very often involves changes in delivery of clinical care.
And so clinicians, physicians, nurses, other providers, um, who are under all sorts of pressure and now being asked to rethink how they’re delivering care. Rethink workflows. Um, and there are being asked to do that from all different angles. The financial flows in health care are very complicated, and there’s a lot of resistance to those changing outcomes.
And so we have to keep our eyes on the big vision and go one step at a time and celebrate those steps as moving in the right direction and creating a culture where it’s all about the big vision where we can never expect to get there in, in the small amounts of time and within any given planning cycle sets you up for disillusionment, but recognizing that this is a stepwise process for the most part.
Um, you know, hopefully creates the space for people to feel good about the steps they’re taking and the trajectory that they’re on.
I love the framing about,
Naji Gehchan: you talked about people, psychological safety, being open and curious. And as you shared at the end, it’s incremental, uh, innovation. And as you were talking about, um, you know, how to, uh, build a psychological study gave this great example. Um, and, and, you know, it made me think because you use the words discipline and kind of like the underlying culture of caring for one another, like being disciplined on doing them.
consistently when things go wrong and when things go well, and then ensuring that there’s a culture where people are trusting and not finger pointing. This, this is, this is exactly the philosophy we built. I thought a lot about this, um,
Richard Dale: even in, in
Naji Gehchan: businesses where, or in situations where you’re dealing with life and death, usually the more you’re disciplined on making sure that you’re learning.
For to improve and giving feedback that is more a constructive feedback for the team to learn rather than, as you said, finding who’s guilty. Like, it’s not about this, but consistently in the organization, we, we fall several times into. this other part of finger pointing. So, and I’m sure it relates to the culture you built in the beginning for you to have been able to deliver on what you’ve done at the end.
Richard Dale: So
Naji Gehchan: if we go to AI, which is one of your other
Richard Dale: passions,
Naji Gehchan: uh, what are the things you are most excited about for AI
Richard Dale: in healthcare?
It’s interesting because, you know, things are moving so fast that Um, as we know in the general conversation about a I, the opportunities seem endless and the risks seem, you know, in your face. Um, things that could go wrong or or might go wrong or do go wrong. And so, um, I’m excited about the long term opportunity for all of the information that we theoretically have.
About an individual person and their health and wellness or disease or health trajectory and all of the information we have about health care pathways and medications and other interventions and devices, um, and all of the literature which is published, um, about how to engage people in their own health and wellness.
There is so much of that information out there that without help at the point of care, it becomes very difficult to bring the very best for that patient in that moment. And I don’t think Any clinician, however, expert in that very particular thing at that very particular moment would say, Oh, I always remember everything which might be relevant.
I can always see everything about this person in front of me. So the ability to provide for the people at the point of care, the right information, the right Um, almost hints, you know, have you thought about, you know, maybe it’s differential diagnosis, but all of these different elements, um, and by the way, which, which are not only oriented around the specifics of the person we’re caring for, but also about the care team and what their strengths are and what their blind spots might be, um, to me, I think the end goal of all of this, it’s.
is coming back to what we’ve talked about for several years, if not many years now, you know, the right care for the right person in the right dose at the right time. Um, now, before we get there, and I do believe that that is not immediate in any sense, um, not least because the data is not really available properly yet.
Um, although, you know, the CMS final rule, which came out yesterday, continues to move that ball forward very slowly and incrementally. Um, before we get there, there are many other places that, um, AI can be helpful. So one example is, um,
you know, when you leave a healthcare encounter as a patient, do you really know what you have been asked to do, uh, as a patient? You know, if you’ve left the emergency room or an inpatient admission, you have pages and pages of discharge notes. Um, even if you’ve just left a primary care annual physical, you know, the doctor has said to you or the nurse practitioner, um, you know, please make sure you do X, Y, Z.
In follow up. Um, you know, it’s very possible that artificial intelligence knowing you as a person can make sure you understand, you know what you have been asked to do this. And this one is the really urgent one. And this is the one you should focus on after that. Um, and unfortunately, I have heard of stories of people who checked out of a primary care setting or an urgent care setting and did not understand that they had been advised to go to the emergency room.
They
did not understand they had been advised to go to the emergency room and they did not go to the emergency room. And later on, they ended up in an ambulance going to the emergency room, um, with potentially worse outcomes because of that gap. So that’s an extreme example, but helping in the communication.
Of what’s going on for an individual, potentially for a care team. I think that potentially comes sooner because it’s a more compact example. And then there are all of these diagnostic opportunities to just get better at diagnostics. And there are all of these, I mean, in, you know, in drug development, there are all of these programs now looking at drug development and it helps.
We’ve got, um, protein folding seemingly, you know, finally we’ve cracked that nut. And so, um, looking at all the different ways that we can look for candidates for a drug pipeline, um, look at potential toxicity profiles, look for efficacy profiles, um, look for new targets, look for new candidates to address those targets, um, you know, those are exciting opportunities as well.
So, it’s everywhere. And it’s nowhere yet. That’s,
Naji Gehchan: that’s a great summary. And as you said, so as you said, it touches drug from discovery to development. It touches care. It
Richard Dale: touches prevention,
Naji Gehchan: treatment. So eager as you are to see how this will impact us as a humanity. Anything that keeps you up though at night when
Richard Dale: you think about AI and its impact on humanity?
Yeah, it’s the same thing which keeps other people up at night. I think that, um, even before AI, um, you know, the first layer is to say the spread of. Disinformation and misinformation that can be accelerated and magnified by A. I. Um, and for people who have malicious intent to just create content at a much higher volume than before, and they might not believe they have malicious intent, but this goes to the next level.
If you peel back the onion one layer, why is there more distrust off the health care system, the medical system, caregivers? Science, why are there, um, you know, arguments about the, um, you know, the meaning of, um, results which come from well run, well orchestrated, randomized, controlled clinical trials from other scientific work, which is.
You know, at the gold standard, um, and underneath that erosion of trust is, um, both an explosion off knowledge and a more and more specialized. A generation of knowledge and a whole gap. Um, you know, I have a friend who works in the space between civics and science and helping think about how does society understand and absorb, um, scientific progress in a way that, um, is appropriately skeptical and knows how to ask the right questions.
And yet, is able to listen to reasoned thinking and, um, and understand why a sci scientific consensus emerges. And then recognizing that the science will continue to change and, uh, we will have a, uh, an initial set of knowledge, which we generate from, from the data and from experiments. Uh, and we can all agree that’s good science and it’s a good conclusion.
And five years later, we might find we’re wrong and we, we missed the boat. And I believe that there’s continues to be an open question about the, the mechanisms underlying Alzheimer’s disease. Are these proteins in the brain cause or effect? Um, and that’s a great example of good science. And even though many people, um, who are, you know, great thinkers can disagree on that, I can hold open the possibility that further work will, um, uncover hopefully a better and more compelling story behind it.
So all of that underlies the fact that to somebody who’s not educated scientifically, it’s difficult to know what to trust in the scientific and the medical field. And so we have this growing distrust, the inability to really manage that. And it doesn’t help that there are newspaper stories or internet stories published every day, which do not tell the difference between correlation and causation.
So that adds to the mistrust. And so now we’re back at the top layer, which is it’s so easy for misinformation to spread. For people, even a goodwill to be misinformed and spread information, which is harmful. And AI can support that or even accelerate that.
Naji Gehchan: I want us to pivot now and I’ll ask you a word and I want your reaction to it. The first one is
Richard Dale: leadership.
Uh, so the word which came to mind was authentic. And I think it goes with integrity. Um,
And I, some people confuse authentic leadership with transparency, and I think there are times you cannot be transparent as a leader. As a leader, you might be party to confidential information about your organization, which you cannot share, but you can still be an authentic leader, and you can still have integrity in every organization.
Conversation you have with somebody on your team or, or anybody. So authentic integrity, those are the three action. What about health equity?
Health equity,
you know, Sachin Jain posted on what was then Twitter and now X. And I think maybe he wrote a blog post about this a year or two ago. He said, why do we keep on talking about social determinants of health when really we’re talking about structural poverty and racism and inequality? And these are societal problems.
And so health equity, I think, um, is one facet of, um, the need for more equity in our society as a whole. And it’s driven by all of these things and that, um, I agree with his. All to not be blind to the human underlying causes and impacts of what drives inequity or equity by slicing and dicing it so small that now we’re talking about access to transport or pharmacy deserts, and it becomes very technical when what’s going on underneath it is the responsibility of society as a whole to fix and society Through its choice of leaders and policies needs to address this very broadly, and the health care system can only go so far in doing that.
Third one is Bill Gates.
Um,
I don’t know, maybe it’s become clear that I’m not somebody who likes to personalize things. Um, I will say that, um, I will answer your question in a minute. I will say that many years ago, I had the privilege of having lunch with Bill Gates. I was at a startup based here in Cambridge, Massachusetts called Vermeer technologies, which made front page, which was the world’s first WYSIWYG webpage editor.
And that company was acquired by Microsoft. When Bill Gates was still CEO and the entire company, all 30 of us flew up to Seattle, um, and we had a, you know, a round table lunch with Bill when he spoke about, um, why they were acquiring us and his vision for the, uh, for the acquisition. Um, and interestingly enough, you know, what you see is what you get with Bill Gates as well.
You know, in person, he seems to be the same person as, as, uh, we see on television and in documentaries. I think Bill Gates commitment to philanthropy and commitment to science driven philanthropy is laudable. I think he’s a very complicated human being, and I do not want to judge him. Um, we’re all complicated people with strengths and flaws.
Um, and if we all could try as hard as he has to make the most of the privileges that we might have, um, the world would be a better place.
Naji Gehchan: The final word is spread love and
Richard Dale: organizations.
You know, we don’t often talk about love in organizational settings, in most organizational settings. Um, but a few people and I congratulate you on being one of them talk about love in organizational settings. Um, and as we know, you know, love can mean many things. And, um, and it can be easy to kind of go off track with that.
But insofar as love means.
Going and showing care for the people that you work with and who work for you and who therefore you are serving kind of servant leadership model there. Um, and acting in a way that you would hope, for example, you know, the colleagues or the boss. Of your spouse or your child would be, um, behaving towards your spouse or your child.
Um,
um, not being quick to harsh judgment. Um, looking for ways to lift people up. Um, having authenticity and integrity in your dealings with them. Uh, these are the hallmarks of, um, of love. Of caring for somebody. And the mission, um, in a way that it is analogous to other places that we talk about love and in some faith communities and certainly in our families or with close friends, we think about love and, um, I think it is appropriate, uh, to use that language, um, and to be aware of its pitfalls.
Because, you know, unlike in ancient Greek, there’s one word for many kinds of love in English. Um,
but I think that kind of, um, you know, perhaps that’s one of the things which is invisible in the water that we need to make a little bit more visible and be aware of in our leadership.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, Richard, for healthcare leaders around the
Richard Dale: world? Um,
I think that, um, as
you become more conscious of The water, the leadership, and as you become more conscious as a leader of your role in shaping those currents, Um, I think it’s okay to be, to share that with the people you’re working with. To say to them, you know, I’m thinking about my leadership in a new way. I’m thinking of trying something different.
Um, I’m seeking your feedback. Um, that requires some vulnerability, you know, you can say to yourself, you know what, I’m going to try and do this a little bit better. I’m going to try and do that a little bit better. And you keep it to yourself. And maybe you have a coach or you have a friend who you tell it to.
Um, but you’re not necessarily telling the people you’re working with. I think that Um, it might be a good idea to think about sharing that with people and helping them support you on your journey. Um, and inviting feedback from them. Um, and by the way, if they start to see changes, you know, people find change difficult.
They can freak out with change. And so even if you are changing in positive ways. You know, you might somebody might come into your office one day, but you’re being so nice to me. Are you going to fire me tomorrow? Um, and so you can lower the temperature around change by telling people the changes that you’re planning to make.
So, I do think that vulnerability and that authenticity and that being kind of explicit with yourself and with your team about what you’re doing can be very powerful. And, you know, can I finish with one last story? Sure. Um, somebody who worked for me, uh, at that stage for a few years. And I’m going to use his name, um, Scott Regenstein, great guy, still a good friend.
He was, uh, a direct report of mine, and he one day said to me, Richard, can I take you out for lunch? I’ve got some feedback for you. So here’s a direct report telling me that he’s got feedback for me and can he buy me lunch? Um, so I guess that already starts that I, I guess I did something right. And Scott is a special person, but that was the setup.
And, uh, we went out for lunch and he said, Richard, I want to give you some feedback about how you delegate. Um, and delegation had been on my list forever of areas where I just, you know, every year in my performance review, it’s like, you could do a better job of delegating, delegate better. And I was like, I delegate great.
I don’t know, what, what more do they want from me? Scott told me that day in four words. Delegate outcomes, not tasks. So many people who are good at delegating know that. Uh, for me, that was a mind blowing moment. It completely changed how I thought about delegation. And I thought about it for not very long, and I’m like, Okay, I see that.
And I would look at the emails that I had sent people delegating things, and I had delegated a 25 point List of tasks where really the outcome was make the customer happy. Maybe you’ve got a better idea than me about how to make this customer happy, but I’m delegating that to you. Anyway, changes like that are not easy.
I worked out what I needed and I worked out. I needed. Um, support. And so I sent to all of my direct reports a little thing, which said, Look, I’m trying to get better at delegating. I know that this is where I fall down. Please help me. Give me feedback. Um, this was before COVID. I even had a little piece of paper on my, taped to my desk, on the other side of my desk, facing where the person would be sitting with the same little thing.
Help Richard delegate. Give him feedback if he’s not being clear about outcomes. Tell him to stop giving you tasks. And so there’s two or three different leadership lessons there. One, what a gift it is to have somebody like Scott, um, be willing to give their boss feedback. Number two, what great feedback and what great advice, and I recommend it to anybody.
Delegate outcomes, not tasks. And thirdly, maybe you can find ways to think about how you ask people around you to help as you look to improve your leadership.
Naji Gehchan: Well, that’s a great story and really a great way, uh, to, um, unfortunately end our chat. Uh, we could talk for hours and, um, it was really great to have you Richard with me and, and discuss those important topics for us in healthcare for being with me. Thanks.
Richard Dale: Well, thank you very much. I loved the conversation and I’m glad to be part of the Spread Love mission here. I wish you continued success with it. Thank you.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Richard Dale first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, for a special episode in partnership with Jill Donahue for her new book “A Dose of Inspiration: 100 purpose stories from Pharma Leaders”. I am joined today by Nejma Chami Global Head of Medical Affairs at Grünenthal. Nejma spent years working in a medical practice before joining the pharmaceutical industry. She has since served in several leadership roles in medical affairs at Abbott, Novonordisk and now at Grunenthal. Nejma is a purpose driven leader with a mission to lighten the load of people who are suffering to make lives better.
Nejma, It is such a pleasure to have you with me today!
Nejma Chami: Thank you. Happy to be with you. And thank you for inviting me. Oh,
Naji Gehchan: sure. Can you first share with us your personal story? Why medicine? Why pharma? What’s in between the lines of your inspiring journey?
Nejma Chami: So, oh, you sent me back, uh, far, far away. So, um, yeah, why medicine? Um, before considering medicine, to be honest, I considered, uh, having, um, Pursuing law school because my father is a lawyer and I was always impressed by his way of impacting the people’s lives.
And he was always eager to find solutions and to see the impact he can have. On the daily life of the people he was interacting with, not only the people, but also their family. And, uh, so it, it was a drive for me, but then when I, uh, once I, I was considering what, what kind of career I want to have and what kind of, uh, of studies I want to, to, to follow.
Uh, I’ve seen that medicine. Cautious the, the line. So, so the, the tick, the box that I was looking for. So in, in medicine we are able to, to to, to completely change, uh, the, uh, the life of people and, uh, make them less suffer. And not only the, the, the patient we are treating, but also the, the, their family members.
So this is why I, I, I’ve chosen to, to, to have this. To follow the, uh, the, uh, the medicine school. And when I left Algeria to come in France. Um, I did a specialization in, uh, in oncohematology and I discovered that not only in my medical practice in the hospital, I can impact patient life, but also in working in pharma.
And this is where I became interested in the, in working pharma, I discovered what we can do and how. But by developing new treatments, we can, we can, we can have this great impact. So this is why I joined pharma. And I started from the field as an MSL and then I did all my career in medical affairs. So it was very, um, uh, a very, how can I say, rich.
Experience not only about about because of the the products I was working on, and the developing but also because of the people I was able to meet and to work with either. Within the company or especially outside of the company with interacting with the key opinion leaders, um, listening to their expectation and trying to understand where are the gaps and where we can have this added value and this great impact.
Well, thank you, Sharama,
Naji Gehchan: for, um, thank you for sharing a part of who you are, Najma, with us. Uh, you, you talked about your dad. I know your upbringing had a lot of influence on the way you think about your purpose. And how you are a service, uh, driven leader. Uh, how do you think about this in your daily job today, being in the pharma world?
You really chose to become a doctor to make lives better, as you said. So now looking back at your upbringing and what you do today, how do you make sure that you’re achieving your purpose in the pharma industry? And do you feel you’re fully achieving it?
Nejma Chami: I think that’s the way to make sure that I’m doing it.
Thanks. is by not losing the nose stuff. There’s one promise I did to my father when I moved to pharma because he was very disappointed with that when I moved to pharma and he considered that yeah you you you did medical school in order to not treat the patient and to move to pharma so you are in a way you you are not Respecting respect.
The, the, the view you, you did and the engagement you had when you entered the medical school. And the, the, the, the promise I, I, I, I gave him is that I will never, ever lose this north star. Being that the, the, the end user is a patient. What we are doing and everything we do is driven by the patient. I, I know that it, it can seem and, uh, cheesy.
But, but not at all, because if we don’t lose this drive, we know why we are thriving. We know why we are doing things. We know why we are working every day within the teams, within, with the experts in order to develop the new treatments and offer new solutions for the patients. And we, it gives us this.
ability to, to take always a step back, not being always driven by our projects, not always driven by our objectives, our KPI, because it’s a word we always have in pharma and having, I have worked also in commercial. So I, I, I know, uh, the, the, the, the pressure of the KPIs, but when we remind ourselves and when we mind our teams, what are we talking about?
And what kind of solution we are providing. It give us this, yeah. This north star, it give us this direction. We, we don’t lose. And that’s the, everything we do, we do it for the patient. And every change we can have or impact we can have on each patient life worth the effort we are doing. So, and this is what I try to, to, to, to share with my team members.
This is what we try to do on daily basis. And when the, the, the, the teams are overwhelmed. We always try to take this step back and remind ourselves why we are doing what we are doing.
Naji Gehchan: I so relate to that, uh, on different levels. I was really smiling when you were talking about your, your dad. I think several of us have, have experienced this, especially coming from certain cultures, I should say.
Uh, I’ve experienced, uh, this from our parents, our friends, and also. our colleagues, you know, as other physicians, um, and, and then how you talked about remembering every single time why we do what we do. And it’s really for those patients we serve. Do you have any tips on a daily basis? How you remind your teams?
Is there a way for you to pull back from, as you said, key performance indicators, projects being overwhelmed with operations we’re doing? To always keep this North Star you talked about any tips for other leaders listening to us.
Nejma Chami: I don’t know if it’s a tip. What I try to do is to be always a listener. Uh, so I’m, I’m, my door is open.
My laptop is open to, to, to my team members. And I, I always make a priority to provide, to give them the time to express. Any concern, any stress, any questions, and when they are overwhelmed about the, the, the, the timelines for the, the, the project becoming time consuming, we, I always tell them, yeah, we don’t speak about the project.
Let’s put the project aside. And let’s tell me, why are you here. Why are you doing what you are doing. Let’s remind ourselves that we are treating patients. We are not selling any product we are selling and providing treatments that will change patient life. So just have this thing to step back, think about it, and let’s talk in 10 minutes.
And I give them this time and we discuss again and my they know that my my door is always open because I know it’s easy to say and myself sometimes I’m just in the daily work and some and I need on a regular basis remind myself. Najma, you are you are losing your north star. So just take a breath and rethink why you are here.
This is what I share with my team
Naji Gehchan: members. And that’s really powerful, uh, and, and certainly constantly reminding yourself, ourselves that what we do is so important for the patients, uh, at the end of the day. As you said, this is, this is why we’re here. This is what every day, every single thing we do at the end of the day is going to hopefully benefit and positively impact patients we serve.
You’ve led teams in several organizations. You’ve done medical, commercial. So I’d love first to know when you move to commercial, the reactions probably of your surroundings to, you know, like there’s always for physicians, I feel people will say, I moved to the dark side to the pharma. And then when you say move to commercial, it’s like the very dark side.
And I’m sure both of us disagree with this. So I’d love first your thoughts about this. And then any guiding leadership principle that you always took with you throughout those experiences you had.
Nejma Chami: Yeah. When I think that the first reaction from the sales team, what, what is she doing here? So she’s coming from, uh, from medical.
So she won’t understand what we are talking about and she can’t understand our daily life. So, and, uh, it was, um, a very humbling experience. Because in this kind of experience, You need to come as, um, as a learner. You need to open your mind a maximum. Forget a little bit your expertise because in medical affairs, we rely a lot on our expertise.
And this is what everyone is expecting from us. But when you are in commercial, I think that the first thing is to listen and understand and make sure that the commercial team feels that you speak the same language. As them and you understand what they are doing and what you can provide them is also this direction when I was leading the sales team, and they were we were discussing the objectives.
I was always telling them, don’t think about the number of box of boxes of treatment, you will say, think about the number of patients. that will benefit from the treatment you are providing. So the more you, you, you, you, you, you give, the more patients will benefit from the treatment. It’s a shift of way of evaluating or considering the sales on the field.
And it’s being also able to understand What they are doing. They need to feel that when they speak to you as their leader, they know and they are sure that you understand what they are doing and what their daily life is about. So it’s always, it’s an exchange and it’s a trust relationship. You need to build trust.
I think that my first three months in my position in commercial was about. Listening, understanding and building the trust.
Naji Gehchan: You said, and it’s so true, right? When you think about it, patient by patient, right? And this is always how I felt about commercial or our commercial organizations. And while I was leading teams, it’s, it’s practically the last mile. Like without the work we do, patients would not get the medicine in their hands.
Right. And as you said, like it’s every impact is one patient’s being helped on the medicine they need to do. with the right balance on benefits and risks of this medication. So I loved how you framed it. So you said listening, understanding, and building trust. Is building trust for you listening and understanding or was there anything else that you did to build trust in your teams?
Nejma Chami: It was also about being hands on with the team, always supporting the team, challenging, but supporting them. They know that even if I challenge, I’m there, I’m there to support them, to make them grow, to grow together. So when every organization I joined or every team I joined, especially as a leader, my first objective was to make the people grow.
And I consider that I succeed. Was the people don’t need me anymore because they, they, they can manage without me being behind each of them because I showed them how to do things and they did it by themselves and they learned how to do it so they can rely on themselves. It’s this empowering people.
That’s key in our functions and for me, it’s the it’s the key driver. I’m happy when the team don’t need me anymore.
Naji Gehchan: But this is this is a real big testament of your leadership. You know, I I thought when I when I reflect on those things, I really relate to what you’re saying, which is I’m sure through transformations and leading leaders.
It’s sometimes one of the most terrifying things for a manager when they’re like, Oh, but what would be my job if my team knows to do everything? And for me, it’s always this transformative piece where you get to a point where actually. They really don’t need you. And this is where you obviously grow and you’re able to impact at the broader level.
So I love how you framed that, uh, on
Nejma Chami: their daily basis because they, they, they know the basics. They know how to do it. They know we agree on an objective. We agree where we want to go. We are very clear about the direction and the destination where we want to go. And then I’m eager to, to, to listen and to hear how they will go to the same destination because I can follow a path.
You can follow a path and both of us will arrive at the same destination at the same time. So I need to respect that everyone don’t have to apply my way of doing things. Or to follow the path I will follow to get to the destination. But I need to make sure that the destination is clear for everyone.
And that this is what we want to achieve together. This is where we want to go. And this is our main objectives. And what we want to reach. How we will reach it? I’m happy to listen from you. And perhaps I will learn from you and I will change my mind. And this is what I find very fulfilling in a leadership position.
It’s this seeing the people providing their own solution and not just waiting for me or saying because it’s easier when you are very directive. Yes, we do it this way. And I want it this way. And I want this timelines. It’s easier. It can save you time. It’s more time consuming. To let people try and fail and try again,
Naji Gehchan: you’re bringing several concepts here that I really value and love.
And it’s a great segue to my next session. And I’m feeling the humidity and what you’re saying. You’re really a humble leader to willing to learn and be open to others. So that’s a great segue for my next session where I’m going to give you a word and I would love your reaction to it. And the first word is leadership.
It’s
Nejma Chami: serving the people we are working with. It’s not managing them. It’s working with them and serving their best interests. Because what makes you a leader is the team you are working with.
What
Naji Gehchan: about patience?
Nejma Chami: It’s the main driver for everything I did until now.
Purpose.
Purpose is being honest. In everything I do and see the impact of every action. I can have
Naji Gehchan: the last one is spread love and organizations,
Nejma Chami: trusting people and be humble. Any
Naji Gehchan: final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?
Nejma Chami: Well, tough question. A word of wisdom. I think it’s, um, I would say, believe, believe in your dreams. Believe in what makes you, you believe in the change you can have and the impact you can have on people’s life, either your team members or each patient you, you can serve and Yeah, I think that I’m a strong believer.
And I do hope that I will continue to be this one.
Naji Gehchan: Wow, what an amazing charge and words of wisdom for all of us in the healthcare world. Thank you so much, Reshma, for your time and for being with me today. Thank you, Najee.
Nejma Chami: I was very happy to exchange with you. Thank you.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Nejma Chami first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, for a special episode in partnership with Jill Donahue for her new book “A Dose of Inspiration: 100 purpose stories from Pharma Leaders”. I am joined today by Angela Giannantonio, Senior Vice President, Human Resources, and member of the executive team at Travere Therapeutics. She has more than 15 years of experience in human resources management, with a strong track record of delivering a best-in-class employee experience and keeping patients at the center, while also driving successful growth and innovation across complex and global organizations. Known for her relentless focus on employee experience and engagement, Angela most recently was the head of human resources for Alexion Rare Disease where she led the company through its integration with AstraZeneca. She previously served as head of human resources for global commercial operations and corporate functions, leading the organization through hyper-growth and a complex pandemic while ensuring high employee engagement and performance worldwide.
Angela, It is such a pleasure to have you with me today!
Angela Giannantonio: Thank you, and it is a pleasure to be here.
Naji Gehchan: Can you first share with us your personal story? What brought you to HR, specifically in the pharma world, and now leading at an executive level in biotech? What’s your purpose story?
Angela Giannantonio: Absolutely. I reflected on this, and it is a bit ironic, because I didn’t intend to be in HR.
I didn’t necessarily intend to be in the pharmaceutical industry. But as I took the time to reflect on this in partnership with Jill, I really started to think back on my childhood and my mother and the compassion that she had with me growing up. Um, she was a young mother, a single mother, really focusing on her daughter and not herself and making sure that I was set up to have a strong life and childhood.
And during that time, I didn’t necessarily realize all that she was putting on her shoulders. Um, and during my childhood, she also took on, uh, being a caretaker for my cousin Kenny who had been diagnosed with Huntington’s disease. And now that I’m older and reflect back, I realize that it was something that was instilled in me that I wanted to help others.
And whatever I wanted to do, I wanted to be like my mom. And so as I went through my career, I gravitated towards people while I was in business and operations and sales, I always wanted to do something better for the people. And as my journey took me, I moved into HR because I realized that if I help the people internally, I can help more people externally.
And as that came to a realization for me, I also wanted to find a purpose driven organization. And so as I moved somewhere where it was really helping people in the company that I was in, I saw that it was the best opportunity for me to make a difference. Thank you
Naji Gehchan: for sharing that. Uh, you, you talked about HR and helping people internally, so I’m really interested and I’m going to immediately go there before we talk about the purpose.
Is it only a matter of HR helping people internally or employee experience? As you talk about it, I’d love to get your thoughts on this as you help, I imagine, several other leaders in the
Angela Giannantonio: organization. Absolutely. And so first, what I always say to my team is that we have to start with ourself. Because if we don’t take care of ourselves, then we can’t take care of others.
And I think a lot of times, when you’re in an organization under a GNA function such as HR, you really only focus outward. And so we start with taking care of ourselves, and that enables us to help the rest of the organization. And so for me, it’s helping leaders lead. And it’s also helping managers grow.
It’s helping each individual be their, their best selves. And so what we can do, um, around that is really critical. And I think for me, the change point for HR is that it used to be considered something that was in the back office and reactive and really operational. And that has changed. It has changed dramatically over the past few years.
I think as mental health has become an awareness, I think during COVID, HR became pivotal in helping employees navigate all of that was going on. And so with that, it just is this opportunity to really set up the organization and the external partners that we have to be their best selves.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, certainly.
And I, you know, I relate to that. I’ve never been in HR, but I feel that the accountability of every leader is also making sure that we can create those positive experiences and people for people to be at their best. And your role is definitely crucial within an organization. create this. So as you have been passionate about employee experience and keeping patient at the center, you talked also about being in a purpose driven organization.
I would love to learn more from you on how do you do this. on a daily basis with your people, ensuring that those are really at the center of what they do every day.
Angela Giannantonio: I would say that, you know, I’m a very authentic leader. And so what you see is what you get. And so when I’m, I think it’s really important to, to create that trusting environment.
And so when we think about purpose at the core of what we do, Where I am today and where I’ve been previously is for our patients. And so we have our meetings where we come together and we’ll either share a story of a patient to ground us or we’ll share our wives and why we have chosen to be at the company that we are at.
And as you learn about everyone has a history and a path that they’ve gone on. And it creates sort of this trust and ability to think forward on what we need to do and where we need to focus on and let the small things really go. And so we can have a really crazy week. We can be in the middle of doing 150 things.
And if you stop for 5 minutes. And reflect in either one show appreciation or talk about someone who, while we think it’s really hard to have a 12 hour day for some people, it’s really hard to put on their shoes and to be able to go outside. And when you stop and really think about what matters, it changes your whole focus.
You can take a step back. You can breathe. You get done what you need to get done, but you also appreciate
Naji Gehchan: what you have. Going, going back to why we do what we do and wake up every morning. And as you said, I’m fascinated by how people in pharma and in healthcare industry are always here for a reason, right?
We all have this purpose. Sometimes we didn’t work the story behind it, but we’re all here for a reason. And this is why we wake up every morning. It is. Yeah. And you’ve led companies through growth, acquisition. So I imagine growth is something positive. It also comes with challenges when it’s like extreme growth, how you keep the culture and you’ve been accountable, uh, somehow with, uh, with the leaders you have and across the company on making sure that those happen in the best way for people.
This is your passion and what you do. So what is your biggest leadership learning? Throughout those experiences of expansion or and or
Angela Giannantonio: acquisition transparency. It is needed. You need to celebrate and own the mistakes and be okay with it and communicate those. Um, and and if you because what that does is goes back to that word.
I’m going to continuously use. It creates trust. And when you have trust in an organization, the ups and downs don’t matter because you’re all in it together. One of our core values is stronger together. And so that is something that is just a part of who we are. And I’ve seen that at every organization that I’ve been at, you know, where we, when we’re able to, and when I say be transparent, that’s all leaders.
That’s not just myself. It’s really critical. For the C. E. O. For the C. F. O. For people, managers to be equipped and be okay and feel comfortable to be transparent and own what we’re going through and that maybe it’s hard or that maybe we made a wrong decision and we’re going to pivot and pivot quickly and come together.
The other piece, I would say, on top of that is creating a speak up culture environment. Where employees feel safe to share what they’re feeling and how they’re feeling. You can do that anonymously, but you can also create an environment within your team so that they feel as though they have the right to speak up.
Because when you’re going through tremendous growth and change, they are the people that can help drive to success. They see the ins and outs. They see the holes. They also have great suggestions that we may not have. Um, and they can be a tremendous asset to helping build and maintain that culture.
Naji Gehchan: I definitely agree with that, especially on the speak up, uh, and obviously the trust.
It’s all about what, you know, we talk about in this, uh, in this podcast. I want to double click on speak up though, as you’re going through again, speed growth or speed acquisition, we’re always feel, and we’re all as leaders, always impatient and we want things to be done fast. How, how did you always ensure that we, there is a culture Where a speak up is not only said that it’s important, but it’s actually done and done in a proper way while balancing the speed to I several discussions I have said, Oh, well, it’s going to slow us down if we want to hear everyone, etc.
But at the same time, as you said, like, it’s the only way actually to accelerate. So I’m interested if you can give us some tips on how you ensure this speak up culture is always really done as you go through those changes.
Angela Giannantonio: Well, first, I’m going to say that we, I, have made many mistakes along the way in this, and so I don’t think that there’s a perfect science, but some, some things that I would say worked well are, one is, you know, always having the ability to have an external resource as a survey, um, and so having the right platform in place, you can very quickly gather sentiments from your employee base and see it in, and so to your point of not slowing things down, um, You can see it in a word cloud.
You can see a heat map of how people are feeling within 24 hours of putting a survey out and you can make it quick. But I think in other ways that have worked is helping them be involved in the change and the growth. And so you do that. And by doing that, you get a good sense of how the employees are feeling.
And really asking them to share in what we want to do in the purpose of driving us forward. And so you can do that. You know, we’ve had to pivot, but previously it was coming together in small groups and brainstorming and sharing here are our cultural values. What are we going to do to keep that and bring that forward?
What are we all going to commit to? And really making them a part of the process. So you’re not slowing it down. You’re embedding them in it because quite frankly, if you embed them in creating it, then you’re not going to have to come back and fix it. And so in the end, you’re not slowing things down.
You’re actually speeding it up.
Naji Gehchan: I’m going to give you a word now, and I would love to get your reaction. So the first one is leadership. Authenticity.
What about employee engagement? Critical to success. Can you tell us a little bit more? I know it’s a big passion of yours. Yes.
Angela Giannantonio: So if you’re employees, you have to find the secret sauce for your organization. And for us, it’s purpose. And as I said before, as you learn about each employee, every single one of us has a story that we go back to.
And when you really, truly understand your employee base and build that trust, The engagement comes and employees are willing to do and give 110 percent all of the time. And what’s even better is that with that, they feel fully satisfied. And so if you have a fully satisfied employee, because they are engaged.
Your company is going to do well, but in the end, you’re also all feeling really good about yourself and to do a full circle of that. I have to call out the importance of mental health. And when I think of employee engagement, I don’t just think about how an employee is engaged at work. I think about how they’re engaged all the time.
And so we need to make sure that we’re putting the right tools and support in place for our employees from a mental health perspective to ensure that they can be engaged both at work, but also at home.
Naji Gehchan: So how are you thinking about, uh, about this specifically, right? Like there’s several times and I obviously think about it all the time as a leader and, and people, uh, people manager.
There was always this misconception or the reality, maybe some years ago, of you put your things outside the door and you come physically probably to an office, which we don’t have anymore. But really kind of this disconnect of what’s happening at work and then your life. Where I feel these days, it’s so blurred and we live.
the craziness of our current world with unfortunate events constantly happening and more hate than than love and compassion. And it’s just so hard to put them outside of work. So how do you think about this these days, ensuring that obviously we talk about it, we ensure there’s an environment where people feel safe to bring them their true selves and don’t feel You know, they cannot do that.
So I’m intrigued on how you think about this because you mentioned mental health beyond only at work. So how are you thinking about it as an HR leader?
Angela Giannantonio: So I would say, you know, it first starts with me and my leadership style. And so I’m a working mom. And you know, when you ask me who I am, I’m a mom first.
Um, and you know, head of H. R. comes after. And I struggle with that. And so I’m using that as my, you know, one example here is that I show my team, but I also show Trevere and others. When I’m struggling and when I need to go be a mom and when I need to be present at work because I want to give permission for others to do that so that they can find the right balance in their lives.
Um, and so I think it’s really important as leaders to show that to show that we all have. This balancing act that we’re playing, whether we’re a caretaker, a mom, we have a pet that is new to the family, whatever it may be. So that’s the first piece, right? And so showing my vulnerability in that there are days where they’re tough, it’s tougher for me.
And that’s okay. Or there’s days where I’m on an executive call, and I’m cheering for my daughter at a soccer game, and they’re all comfortable and supportive of that. And that is something that is so critical, I think. And that’s not just me, that’s our leadership team in creating that environment. But then secondly, when there are events that happen, which seem to happen on a consistent basis, it’s when those happen, and I’m either with my own employee.
In a group setting, whether it be with the executive team or leaders, before we get into what we’re getting into, I stop. How’s everyone doing? What’s one word to describe how you’re feeling today? One word. We go around, we share our one word, we talk for a bit, and then we move on. It just allows for that moment again, because to your point, we are all working so hard and you just get into the day to day to day if you stop and take that moment that is so critical, it really helps people to feel as though, okay, I’ve been able to share at least how I’m feeling today.
It could be I’m exhausted. I’m overwhelmed. I’m really sad about today’s events. Um, it allows for that, that ability to be able to do. So this is such a
Naji Gehchan: great tip. I’ll, I’ll use it. I checked on emotions. I do it. Um, I learned how to do it. I should say from my daughters. Actually, since you shared about being a mother and It’s so powerful, but I love the idea of putting one word behind it.
I’ll try it. The third one I’m going to give you is D E I B.
Angela Giannantonio: It’s a must. And so, you know, as we think through, I think there’s, there’s so many different ways to think about it. I think it all starts with inclusivity and having that sense of belonging, but you need the diversity of thought, of background, in order to have it all come together. Um, and it goes back to that ability to have that speak up culture and to share what you’re feeling and what it may be right or what it may be wrong.
And again, goes back to vulnerability and being able to say, I’m not sure I quite understand that. Could you explain it to me? It’s an education. It’s an evolution. Um, but it’s an absolute must because without that a company can grow stale.
The last word
Naji Gehchan: is spread love and organizations.
Angela Giannantonio: This one just brings a smile to my face because, oh well let me think of the one word first, um, powerful.
Naji Gehchan: I want to know why it brings a smile.
Angela Giannantonio: Well, I think that, you know, love can be seen as something as, I think, a weakness at work, um, and it’s not. And I think that’s why, for me, it’s, if you have the compassion, you have the trust, the integrity, It automatically creates and builds high standards throughout your organization.
And if you spread that, it is such a powerful thing. And I’ve been at organizations that may not spread love, and I have been at organizations that do, and the differences are tremendous. You wake up every day and no matter what is happening, you feel safe and welcome at your work. You spend a lot of time at work.
You want to feel welcomed. You want to feel as though you can succeed. And if you have an environment where it’s safe and people are spreading love, it is truly a different experience and no one’s ever going to want to leave.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?
Angela Giannantonio: I would just say continue to be your authentic self with your teams. I think it can go a tremendous way and it builds an opportunity for others to be able to lead in that same way. And the other piece that I just want to say is there are quiet people on your team, pull them out.
Don’t necessarily put them where they’re uncomfortable, but seek their opinions and their thoughts. Because a lot of times. They don’t share them, and they have some really great insights that may be overlooked or missed.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Angela, for being with me today and this inspiring chat.
Angela Giannantonio: Yes, thank you. I’m honored to be here.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Angela Giannantonio first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, honored to be joined today by Rob Perez. Rob is an Operating Partner at General Atlantic, providing strategic support and advice to the firm’s investment team and portfolio companies in the Life Sciences sector. Before joining General Atlantic in 2019, he was Managing Director of Vineyard Sound Advisors, LLC, an advisory practice focused on growth companies in the biopharma industry. Prior to that, Rob had several roles in the biotech/pharma industry starting as a medical representative to becoming President and CEO of Cubist Pharmaceuticals before its sale to Merck in 2015. Rob is also the Founder and Chairman of Life Science Cares, an organization that provides human and financial capital from the life sciences industry to the best non-profits working to alleviate the impact of poverty in the US.
Rob, It is such a pleasure to have you with me today!
Rob Perez: Thank you Naji, a pleasure to be here!
Naji Gehchan: I remember the first time we talked, you shared that if there is one thing you’d want as your legacy, it is a legacy of impact in life science. And what an impressive legacy you’ve built… How did it all start?
Rob Perez: Well, Life Science Cares actually started, um, with, I guess I can go back a little bit and say the reason that I got involved in, um, kind of giving back and community service is I’ve felt since kind of my early days in my career that I’ve been very fortunate to have found this industry.
Um. It was really dumb luck more than anything else. Uh, I didn’t know about the industry growing up. I didn’t have any desires to do it when I was in college. I wasn’t even that big of a fan of science to be candid. Um, but somehow I lucked into a job as a sales representative in, um, in biopharma coming out of school.
And that’s how I kind of started in the business. And so, um, the, the fact that that dumb luck, um, afforded me this amazing life, this amazing career, when so many that I grew up with, so many of the people I went to school with had even more or just as much certainly talent and smarts and, and desire, um, as I had, but they didn’t have the same luck.
So because of that, I’ve always felt like part of the return for this blessing is to, um, give other people this chance, try to help other people access this amazing, uh, this amazing industry and frankly, just help people generally. So it’s been a big part of my life, and it was a big part of who we were at Cubist, a big part of the culture that we built at Cubist.
And so when Cubist was acquired, uh, we, you know, I really wanted to do something else related to community service. And so I, um, talked to a lot of people in Boston about philanthropy and, and ideas, uh, on how I could be involved. And the, frankly, the idea for Life Science Cares. hit me in the middle of the night one night like a lightning bolt.
Um, and, uh, I’ve been kind of following that, that epiphany ever since. And so that’s really what started life science cares. And since that very night when I wrote out the deck or what would become life science cares, uh, and I sent a message out to an A number of dozens of leaders asking what they thought with a lot of fear, frankly, that they would come back and say, Hey, this is crazy.
And B who are you to be asking about this? You’re not like the leader of the industry. Um, they all came back and said, this is great. How can we help? We’re in. And that’s the way it’s been since the very beginning.
Naji Gehchan: I love it. And for sure, we’re going to dig more into what you do, uh, through a life science case.
But before that, you talked about the culture you built in Cubist, uh, and you’ve had several roles in biotech. You led Cubist Pharmaceuticals as its CEO and through acquisition with Merck. So I’m intrigued about the culture and what is really your biggest leadership learning through the journey as an operator in, in the biopharma industry.
Rob Perez: Well, culture was a big part of what made us different. We weren’t the biggest company. We were competing against large pharma in markets that were, that were typically, um, dominated by larger pharma previously. And so, uh, you know, we believed that we needed to have a different business model in order to, uh, be effective at our size.
And part of that was having the right people. And in order to attract the right people, you really need the right culture. So, um, I would say I could, could, could describe cubists, um, uh, culture in, in three words, one was patience. And that was the first. Um, the second was, uh, employees. We were big on our people and the third, which may be a little bit different, was community.
Um, and we, we really believe that if we got those three things right, um, we were going to attract the best people we were going to do right by our shareholders and ultimately, um, Deliver tremendous, um, and outsized outcomes for them and ultimately, um, do right by the world. And so we spent a lot of time thinking about our broader community, allowed our people to, um, both get involved with the things that the company was involved with from a community standpoint, but also individually, we encouraged them to, to do what they felt was important to make the world a better place.
And. I always had this view that, that extraordinary people, which is who we were targeting, are not just extraordinary when they’re in, in between your walls, they’re extraordinary all the time. And so to ask them to only focus on being extraordinary for you is a little selfish. And so what we did was we tried to get extraordinary people to be extraordinary.
And that meant with Cubist and in other ways, and because of that, we attracted extraordinary people.
Naji Gehchan: I love this vision. And I’m so I’m intrigued, you know, in moments of growth, obviously, with investors, and shareholders, as you said, how did you convince them that focusing on this is as important as anything else, if not more focusing on people and community service?
Rob Perez: Yeah, we didn’t need to convince them. Um, the, the, the fact that, that they were the people who they are, um, or who they were, uh, uh, was, uh, something that they were looking for. I mean, the reason, one of the reasons that they chose Cubist was because of our commitment and our focus. Both in terms of patients, most importantly, um, but also on the broader world.
So, um, we, I believe culture is something that if, if your, if your culture is like everyone else, if it’s kind of milquetoast. You don’t really have a culture. Um, and so your culture should, uh, attract those who your company and business model need and frankly repel those who aren’t going to fit well in your culture and in your environment.
And so, um, this, this focus on togetherness and on, you know, doing something bigger for the world. Which we were trying to do in the anti infective space when, frankly, most companies had left. We were going to attract people who had that kind of mindset. And the folks who were really kind of more self, uh, more independent, if you will, you know, they wanted to just do it for themselves and, and were all about kind of the financial driver of their independence.
Those people weren’t going to fit that well within Cubist. And so they, they tended to roll off. Um, and what, what it left was an organization that was very much aligned on how we were going to win. And so when you have a strategy and a culture that align, that’s when the magic happens. And I think that’s what we had at Cubist.
I certainly
Naji Gehchan: relate and agree with any tips that you give leaders and healthcare on how to build this culture because we hear about it. We talk about it. And as you said, it’s not only saying that it’s actually living it and ensuring your people live it and transfer it across the organization. So any, any tip you found as you were building it, uh, super important.
Rob Perez: Yeah, I speak on this a lot with companies and, um, and it’s not easy. And so the first point is what I said before is, um, you have to ask yourself how much your culture is unique. Because what I find a lot is, um, management teams and leaders trying to develop a culture. They often involve, you know, consultants and, and, um, you know, these broad groups and you end up with this, uh, very middle of the road.
Um, set of principles, whatever, that if you closed your eyes, it could be any company USA, right? Or at least any company, healthcare and life sciences. So that’s the first thing is to make sure you avoid the, um, the, the cultural norms that, um, could be anybody’s because then it’s nobody’s. Um, the second is trying to create a culture that isn’t really you.
So the, you know, the cultures that, um, have. Uh, this aspiration. But if the employees look at it, they say, that’s not us. That’s not who we really are. Um, that is really can be actually damaging, um, because it’s not authentic. And so the, the wiring of the leaders, um, I think really does matter. And you have to kind of look in the mirror and decide who you really are.
And then the third thing, um, is I think cultures have to match how you’re going to compete. Um, we are, and, and you realize that you’re, like strategy, you’re making choices with your culture. No culture is perfect. So, at Cubist, we wanted to Um, we were competing against larger companies, and we did not have the scale that they did.
So our belief was, we were going to be smarter, we were going to learn faster than, um, our competitors. So that was our competitive differentiation. We were going to learn faster, adapt quicker, and move To what the customer needs better than our competitors. Well, if you have that kind of environment, you’re not gonna be able to have a culture that is very kind of dictatorial, very top down, et cetera, because you’re never gonna learn sitting in a home office.
So we had to have a culture that enabled people to challenge to, to bring new ideas. To, you know, we had a culture where anybody could, um, could come up with an idea and could share it with the president and CEO. Um, you know, the, the Mike Bonney and I would have lunch with employees. In the, uh, cafeteria, you know, uh, between the two of us, like two or three times a week and just employees from all levels.
And we get everything from people questioning our, our strategy to our shareholders, to what are you going to do to fix the phone in the Washington conference room, right? There was, but when you’re. When you have a culture where anybody can comment about anything, um, that’s, that’s the kind of place that you have to, you have to realize.
And, but you give up some things too there, Naji. I mean, you, we weren’t as fast as Some companies would be we were not competing on speed. Um, and when you have this kind of culture where everybody has a comment and the ability to comment, it’s not as easy to say we’re going right. And everybody just says, Yes, sir, we’re going right.
That’s not the way it worked. The cubist. If I said we’re going right, people would say, Why? Right. You know who chose right? Who gave you the right to say it was going to be right, right? So it was very, very collaborative. Inclusive environment and that worked with the way we we competed. If you’re a different company and you need to compete differently, then you have to think about how that culture fits into your competitive dynamic.
Well, that’s
Naji Gehchan: certainly a culture as you’re describing where people were thriving and obviously it led to great results. Anything you would have changed in it through? You know, growing the company to acquisition anything when you reflect, you would have done differently.
Rob Perez: Well, look, I think, um, different, you know, I was a cubist for 11 years.
And so the company went from a small company to well over a thousand employees. And that change involves. Uh, you know, kind of evolving the company as well. And so the culture had to change. Um, you know, well, I shouldn’t say the culture had to change. The processes had to change and we tried to do it consistent with the culture, but you also had to realize there that there were times when you just had to adopt new thinking.
I used to write a blog at, at, um, uh, Cuba’s to try to the employees to try to help them to understand this. Some of these changes that we need to make as we got bigger and A lot of that blog was about trying to, to, to understand that even though our cultural values remain, our processes do need to change from being a 1200 person company, from a a 200 person company, there’s things that we have to do differently.
We can’t have everybody in a meeting room. For example, um, you know, at some point when you’re in a meeting room and you’re broadcasting that meeting to a different meeting room, you’re probably off the rails in terms of inclusiveness. So, at some point, we had to say, look, not everybody needs to be at every meeting.
Um, and so, uh, some of those cultural norms. Start, you know, kind of busting at the seams as you get bigger, and you need to, you need to try to figure out ways to, in a way that’s consistent with who you are, um, develop the processes that are, that are needed for a bigger organization. Well, thanks for that.
Those
Naji Gehchan: are great learnings. Uh, let us know more about Life Science Cares and how really your organization is empowering the life science community to make change and impact on one of the most intractable social issues. poverty. That’s a very big commitment you’ve done and you’re having impacts. Can you tell us a little bit
Rob Perez: more about what you do?
Thank you. And thank you for the question. Yeah. So life science cares essentially is the industry’s way. And when I say industry, I define that broadly in life science. It’s not just biopharma companies, but the industry’s way of trying to harness the amazing talent, resources, and compassion. Of the life sciences industry and bring those resources to bear on issues related to poverty.
So what we do is we aggregate resources, both human and financial with an emphasis on human, frankly, um, and then find the best nonprofits. Doing work, um, in poverty in, in one of three areas. The first is, um, areas associated with access to, to needs of basic human survival. So hunger, homelessness, um, opioid addiction, health equity, et cetera.
The second area is access to education. And we define education pretty broadly from early at all the way to college entry and college success. And then the third is access to economic opportunity or nonprofits that Um, work on breaking the cycle of poverty, and those are organizations doing work in job training, job creation, um, uh, economic development, et cetera.
So, um, we, we search for the best nonprofits who can really use our help and partner with us, and we provide financial and human resources to help them do what they do bigger and better. So we started that in Boston in 2016, um, and are now operating in five. Um, uh, life sciences hubs. So it’s Boston, Philadelphia, New York, San Diego and San Francisco Bay Area at present.
Um, and there’s a, there’s a fledgling operations just getting underway in Basel, uh, in, in Switzerland as well, which is. Oh, wow. Yeah. There’s a few folks there who’ve taken it up. So, um, and really the goal is to, um, to, to make a difference, to make an impact. Um, it, it really is a very simple idea and it’s a very grassroots effort in, in those.
In those communities, the leaders of the industry have come together to bring themselves and their companies, um, to, to, to make a difference. As a matter of fact, the, the organization is essentially funded, all the administrative or back end costs are funded by the leaders of the industry. In each, in each area, there’s a board of directors and a board of advisors.
Uh, in Boston, I think there’s 200 plus board of advisors. And those those individuals give money out of their pocket every year to cover the administrative costs of the organization so that when we take in donations from companies or philanthropists, we can give give pass that through directly to our nonprofit partners.
So it really is a grassroots effort. That, um, has, you know, just blown up. And so I’ve just been amazed by the, um, the impact of the organization in a pretty short amount of time. Oh, it’s certainly
Naji Gehchan: impressive, uh, all the impact on, uh, people, as you said, and the communities that you’ve been able to, uh, touch and help through these.
Three different areas you’ve been focusing on, uh, and any specific program you would like to highlight. I know there was some communications during JP Morgan that happened last week. Anything you want to highlight specifically on the program as I know you’ve been expanding?
Rob Perez: Thank you. Yeah. So, um, a couple of things.
Well, one is JP Morgan was kind of a, a pinch me moment for me. Uh, I was really blown away to have, and we had a panel at the conference. Looking at industry reputation, which was amazing. Um, JP Morgan helped us to have a reception at the Westin, which is like unheard of, um, and, uh, um, you know, just, uh, amazing support.
Additionally, we had a, um, the Gilead foundation agreed to match. Funding that came in in and around the conference up to 250, 000. And we’re, we’re really close. We may have hit it. I haven’t heard today, but there’s still time if people want to donate, they should go to our website and help us to get over the top.
But we’re going to be really close, if not at that 250, 000. Raise. So Gilead will put in another 250 to get to 500, 000 raised to impact poverty just around the JPM conference. So that was just really cool. And again, to see this idea taken up like that was was crazy. And then the other thing that we’re super proud of, as I mentioned, one of the areas of our focus is in economic access to economic opportunity.
And the one thing we didn’t see. Um, nationally, at least, was an internship program. There’s great data about the power of that first internship, particularly for students who don’t have access to those, to those kinds of connections and resources. So we created, um, our own, uh, internship program called Project OnRamp.
We started this in Boston a few years ago. And the goal is for students who’ve been impacted by poverty, um, and though all these students are what’s called Pell Grant eligible, so they, um, they are, um, in college now, rising sophomores and juniors, but all who’ve been impacted by poverty, many of whom are, um, students of color and first generation students.
We allow them to get their first paid internship in a life sciences company, and that includes. You know, clinical and lab, um, lab internships as well as business, uh, internships within companies and well as well as companies associated with or that serve the industry. This has been tremendously successful for students, many of whom have gotten their 1st job now that we’ve been doing it a few years, um, in a life sciences company.
But what I’m really impressed with. What’s been really remarkable. I love to hear the stories from the, from the young people. That’s always great. And always, you know, pulls on your heartstrings, but so many individuals in the industry have talked to me about, um, how impactful this program has been for them because they didn’t realize that there was talent at the types of schools that many of these kids.
Um, uh, go to or attend. So we’re talking about state schools, frankly, schools that I school like the one I went to that, you know, weren’t places that biopharma companies usually recruit at. Um, but but these students are showing that there’s talent everywhere. And that’s the point of this. We really believe that we can make a difference in the workforce of the industry.
So we now have a, um, uh, a philanthropic donor who’s remaining anonymous, who looked at the program and what we were doing and said, this is amazing. I’d like to see if we can do it bigger. And so he has given us a challenge. To figure out how to get to greater than 1, 000 student internships a summer, um, in over the next, it’ll be now for we’re in year one of that plan, um, uh, over five years.
And so last year we did about 300 internships last summer, and we’re growing to to get to over 1000 kids every summer. So that’s another fund that we’re raising to get the remaining. Um, it’s like a 6 million commitment. Um, we’ve got about 5 million in, um, and so if people are interested in donating to Project OnRamp, we can use their help to get us over the top there as well, but I truly believe that that program is going to be impactful for, um, for the industry because it will expand the talent base, um, where we’re targeting, and that I think can ultimately lead to new insights, new innovation and ultimately serving patients better.
Uh, certainly.
Naji Gehchan: And this is, this is really congratulations. It’s impressive, inspiring, and definitely it will help us, uh, grow, think differently, be more inclusive and ultimately serve better the patients, uh, that we, uh, we have constantly on our minds. Thank you. Going out of JP Morgan, also a lot was happening during this week, and you’re an expert in the biotech field.
What are you most excited or looking forward to for our biotech industry when you think for the decade ahead of us?
Rob Perez: Well, I think, first of all, the pace of change. You know, I’m an old guy. I’ve been in the industry 30 plus years, and innovation has been a part of the industry, obviously, for all 30 and certainly predating me, but the pace of innovation, in my opinion, has sped up.
Um, you know, we’re talking about cures in diseases now that we couldn’t have imagined when I started. Um, the, um, the amount of I know I’m in the capital markets business in my day job. Um, and I know there’s times when, uh, this past year when folks were hurting a little bit from a capital markets perspective, but the amount of capital that’s that’s available currently for that for these innovations is also something that we’ve not seen previously.
So I’m really bullish on the industry. Um, I think the, the, um, you know, we’re just scratching the surface on the types of technology that can really make a difference in human health. So, um, overall, I’m, I’m definitely bullish and I, I wish I was younger and I wish I had another 30 years, um, because I think what we’re going to see over the next Over the next several decades, it’s going to be just mind blowing.
Naji Gehchan: You’re still young, Rob, and your impact is beyond only capital. As you’ve been doing, you’re touching communities, bringing young talents throughout our organizations. It’s just impressive what you’ve been doing.
Rob Perez: Thank you. Well, the other, one other thing I’ll mention, um, and back to J. P. Morgan. The other thing that we did at J.
P. Morgan is I’m a co founder of an organization called Block. biopharma leaders of color. Um, and another just amazing, uh, night, we had a reception at JP Morgan and to see a room full of, and I mean full, of leaders who were at the JPM conference who are black and brown people who, um, frankly had never been to a meeting like that, where they were, uh, you know, not one of the only.
Um, people, uh, in a room, um, to be in a place that was full of high level C suite leaders, um, and as well as young people from the industry together. And that’s another thing that I think is really exciting about what’s to come is we’re tapping into talent everywhere. You know, we had a fireside chat with Yvonne Greenstreet, who’s a good friend, uh, who runs, uh, El Nihilum, and, um, Yvonne was amazing in that, but it was great for, uh, people both, uh, at the top of their career and folks who were just getting started to hear her story and to see The kind of leadership that, you know, the, this is a woman of color leading one of the industry’s most significant companies, and that’s happening over and over again.
So that’s another area of great pride. Um, and, uh, area we’re looking to grow to be able to help enable. And, um, and amplify, uh, people of color in the industry. For sure. And
Naji Gehchan: it’s, uh, it’s, it’s a good start, but so much still needs to be done. And you’re definitely making a huge impact to make these things move forward.
I’m going to give you now a word, and I would love your reaction to it. Okay. The first one is leadership.
Rob Perez: Um, my first reaction is misunderstood. Um, I think, you know, number one, I think leadership, great leadership is, um, is still more rare than it should be. Um, and that’s because A, it’s misunderstood. B, um, people don’t work at it the way that they work at their technical skills.
And because of that, I think we sometimes, um, don’t achieve potential because, uh, leadership is lacking. I know in the capital market space, and a lot of my venture capital friends will tell me that they’re, that the, the, the capacity constraint on their, um, starting companies and growing companies It’s not ideas or technology, it’s leadership.
Um, it’s finding the right people, not, not people who aren’t smart. There’s a ton of smart people in the industry, but finding leaders. So, um, my first thought there is, is, uh, I think leadership’s a bit misunderstood and mis uh, and underappreciated. Um, and I think if people spent more time both studying and thinking about leadership as they think about their technical skills, uh, we’d have even better companies.
The second one
Naji Gehchan: is DEIB. We talked about a lot diversity inclusion before, but I’d love your perspective on
Rob Perez: that. Oh man, if we only had more time, Nagi. But look, I’m, uh, I’m concerned about, uh, about DEI because I think, um, it is being kind of misappropriated as a culture war, um, topic. And that’s unfortunate because I don’t think it’s, um, you know, I, I think there are people who, uh, you know, want to kind of weigh in on that part.
I don’t, I don’t go there because I, well, I have my own points of view on, on the fact that it’s the right thing to do. I don’t think that’s the reason why companies should adapt, um, DEI policies. I think the reason to adapt it, um, DEI policies is because it’s good business. Um, there is tremendous data that suggests that companies that embrace, um, D.
E. I. Policies do better, um, for their shareholders. And it’s not rocket science. It’s because you’re tapping into talent from everywhere. You have a bigger pool from which to, um, to, uh, to gather talent and your customers, your shareholders and your employees. all happen to be, uh, people who come from all walks of life.
So why you wouldn’t want to tap into talent from all those walks of life, um, also just kind of, um, uh, remains a little confusing to me. So I think DEI is good business. Um, I think it’s become A, you know, political, um, and, and it actually being turned into a negative statement, which is really unfortunate.
And I guess part of a sign of the times, but without going into that part, which again, I have lots of opinions about, but probably not the right time and place. I would just say that I would ask people to think about. The benefits to the business. Um, uh, last week, I think Mark Cuban and Elon Musk were going at it on X about DEI Mark Cuban said something like, look, I hope you, you, uh, uh, you get rid of all of your DEI policies and, and basically piss off all of the.
Uh, candidates who don’t come from your one, um, kind of way of, of attracting talent. I’ll take all those people. I’ll take all those people, I’ll take all that talent and I’ll beat you every time. Um, and that’s, that’s, he’s not arguing that it’s a, um, that it’s the right thing to do. He’s arguing that it’s the best way for his business.
And I think that’s the way I think about it is, um, we really need to, to appreciate that ideas can come from anywhere. And the more we do that, the better off we’re going to be. Oh, for sure.
Naji Gehchan: And it’s proven again and again. And personally, how I build team, I’ve seen it building team that are diverse from, uh, different perspective, thoughts, ethnicities, et cetera, would definitely bring richness to, uh, to the work and, and impact broader.
And there’s something else you said that really resonated with me. When I think about being different or being yourself at work, you talked about, um, the energy tax. Of being different in the workplace. Can you can you share a little bit more
Rob Perez: about it? Sure. Um, I wrote a blog about this, um, you know, several months ago, or maybe even years ago.
Um, and, uh, it was about this, this, this energy tax. And a lot of people, I think it resonated with them because they, they, they feel it. And the point of the piece was not necessarily written towards the different. But written towards the people who were in the majority, um, to be able to say, Hey, understand that this exists.
We’re not asking you to change anything. We’re not asking you that there shouldn’t be government programs on it. That’s not the point, but just understand that it exists. And let me just go a little bit deeper. So people understand what I’m talking about. Um, first of all, different is in the eye of the different, right?
And so in, in, uh, you know, you have protected groups. I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about situations where you feel like almost everyone else. comes from a very similar point of view. They all kind of get this spoken and unspoken rules. And you have to interpret them. Um, you have to kind of be in that environment and you have to go through some mental process to try to understand how to best fit in, in that environment.
That’s what being different feels like. And it’s, again, it’s the, it’s, it’s women in boardrooms, it’s people of color in management suites. It’s, um, it’s, you know, people who, um, are LGBTQ who are, um, you know, working in a, in a team where they’re the only. Uh, person with that sexual orientation. Um, so those folks, when they, uh, have an idea, or have a point of view, they don’t just get to spew it, out of, from their brain, out of their mouth.
They’re, that, that thought has to go through a process of, okay, if I say it this way, How might that be perceived? May or will I be offending anyone? What will they think of me? Will it impact my advancement? Um, all of that, uh, wiring is exhausting and it is a, it is a, um, an extra filter that, um, others don’t have to do.
And you could argue that even in the most Um, welcoming environments where people would say, why would you do that? I have no, no inherent bias. I, you know, you’re the greatest. Even in those environments, they’re going through that process because that is how they achieve. That’s how they’ve gotten to where they’ve gotten.
So the point that the point of the piece was really to say, be aware. that this exists, both for the people who are going through it and who may have this, this fatigue, um, that builds up over time and, and weren’t really sure what it was, but also to the people who are in the majority to say, it’s not, not a bad idea to check in with people at times to say, how are you doing?
I get it. And how can I be helpful? To make sure that this isn’t a problem for you. So that was the point of the piece. Rob,
Naji Gehchan: for sharing it here. The third word is health equity.
Rob Perez: Oh, wow. That is a, that is a really huge, um, issue, uh, particularly right now, I think. Um, and for Life Science Cares, it’s something that we’re scratching our heads on how we can engage, um, uh, best.
Let me, let me break it down a little bit and talk a little bit about at least how, how I’m thinking about it as a, as a chair of Life Science Cares. Um, and this is only one small part of health equity. But, um, I think people in the industry will, will appreciate this. Those of us in the industry, even people like me, who I’m a marketing major from Cal state LA, I am my family’s go to person on medical issues because of the access that I have to, uh, to care, to the medical industry, and I’ll bet that most people who are listening now.
Either those who are absolutely qualified to be them, but even those like me who are unqualified tend to be that person within their broader circle because of the access that we have to information to, um, experts, et cetera. Now, think about. Uh, the person who is in an inner city or in a, in a rural area with no connections at all.
Um, you know, uh, I’ve, I have, I’ve had, you know, like most people my age, health things that pop up, um, and I, you know, can access the best physicians. Um, and be able to cut months off of the time that it would take me to get it. Um, that’s just because of the, the blessings of my career and, and, and the access that I have.
But then I think about people who are, who don’t have that access and who, you know, have diseases that progress because they just don’t, either they don’t trust. the medical system or they just don’t have the access. And that’s one of the things that we love to try to work on it. Life Science cares is how can we tap into this amazing resource?
That is the life sciences community and help people to get more access, help people to, um, to, you know, just essentially get more information, get more access to care. And again, I’m not blaming our healthcare system. I know that this is a challenge and I’m on the board of Dana Farber, which does a fantastic job in the community.
And I know how much we talk about it at Dana Farber, trying to make sure that we have access to, or that people in the community have access to. The Institute, and they do a great job. Once people get in, the problem is getting in can have a lot of barriers. So when I think about health equity, first and foremost, I think about the barriers to access.
And what we need to do to be able to break down those barriers for everyone. And this is a great
Naji Gehchan: reminder for all of us as healthcare leaders to think about access, health equity, and how we can improve it. I’m eager to talk more about this, and I know we can’t in this forum, but I’d love to talk a little bit more about this with you.
Thank you. The fourth word is spread love in organizations.
Rob Perez: Well, first of all, I love what you guys are doing. And, um, ever since I kind of heard about you, I just thought, wow, this, what a great idea. Um, first and foremost, we need more focus on kindness, compassion, and love in the world. Um, you know, if I might editorialize a bit there.
So the fact that you’re, you’re talking to some of the industry’s most accomplished people about this topic, um, is really extraordinary. So thank you for doing what you do. Um, the other is it’s not surprising to me that the people that you’re talking to who are at the top of their game, um, are also people who have leaned into, um, spreading purpose within their environment.
They are purpose driven people. Um, who care about the world and it gets back to kind of what I was saying before about I think extraordinary people, um, are not just extraordinary in their day job. They’re extraordinary all the way around. And so, um, being able to have this forum and frankly, all forums to use it to, um, to make the world a kinder, um, better place.
Ultimately is going to mean better business as well. You know, the, the, at JPM, the, uh, the panel that was, uh, where Lifescience Cares was featured was really focused on industry reputation and, um, you know, how do you reboot this industry’s business? Unfortunately, terrible reputation. And, um, I know I don’t have all the answers there, but there’s two things that I do think I, I know.
One is the answer is not, you know, more ads about, uh, how great the industry is. Um, that’s just not going to work. Um, but what I think the answer is, the second point is to just show people the compassion, the commitment to human health. That, um, our industry is focused on through our actions, through our actions, um, that I think is where the answer lies.
And, um, you know, there’s I have a this friend who wrote a book called Good is the New Cool is actually written a couple of books after Aziz. Um, it’s called Good is the New Cool and after, uh, focuses on, um, companies and marketing that leans into doing good and how attractive that is to employees to shareholders and most importantly to customers.
Um, that this is, I think, what the industry needs to embrace the good that we do, um, because I think the more we share that with people, the more they’re going to realize, wow, this industry is, um, it’s full of extraordinary people and really about helping people, not about all the negative things that we get tagged with.
Naji Gehchan: Can’t agree more than what you said. It’s a, you know, for me, it’s every time taking it back to this human level we are. And as you’ve seen hundreds of people working in this industry, I’ve seen, I had the pleasure to interview now more than 130 leaders and what’s fascinating is this purpose we all have, right?
We all wake up in the morning with this service that we want to bring good. We want to help. People live better, and I think those stories will shine way more than any advertisement campaign. And it’s not, I’m a marketer too, so it’s not around not, not having impact, but it’s really about us making this industry at the end.
It’s the industry is the people and the passion of scientists, physicians, and all the employees working hard to make life better for the patients we serve. So I definitely agree with you. Thank you. Any final word of wisdom Rob for healthcare leaders around the world.
Rob Perez: Um, I don’t know. I guess my word of wisdom is really thank you and gratitude.
Um, I, uh, feel extremely fortunate to have, uh, been a part of this Industry and to have met so many amazing people, many of whom you featured on your podcast. Um, and there are folks who are out doing things that I couldn’t even imagine. So first and foremost to healthcare leaders, my point is, is to say thank you.
Um, keep it up. Um, there’s, there’s so much more to do. And, and I guess my call out because, you know, they’re focused on their day jobs of, of, you know, working on really hard problems. Is let’s come together and see what the benefit of collective impact can do on issues associated with our community. I think life science cares is the way that, um, that, that, you know, we put together and we think it’s only think it’s the best, but it’s not the only way to do it, um, regardless of how I hope everyone will consider, um, their part in helping the world to be a better place.
And the good news is you don’t have to do all the research yourself. You don’t have to find the right organizations. We’ve kind of done that for you. So whether you’re a small company, um, uh, that needs, that doesn’t have the resources and needs to kind of outsource its corporate social responsibility, we can help you with that.
Um, or a larger company that has a lot of resource, but needs to kind of connect with others within the industry so that we can make a collective and larger impact. Um, regardless of where you fit on that spectrum, I think we have a way to, uh, really harness the passion. The enthusiasm and compassion of the industry at life science care.
So I would really encourage people to get in touch with us. Our website is life science cares dot org, um, and, you know, or ping me on linked in and let me know that you’d like to get involved and I’ll get in touch with the right person. But we together we can have a huge impact on people. We’re doing it right now, and I think it can be bigger and better over time.
Well,
Naji Gehchan: thank you so much, Rob. I will, uh, I will definitely share all the contacts about the life science cares on on our on your episode and on our pages. But really, it’s it’s impressive what you’ve been doing. And I love the charge you’re keeping us with and asking us to really think about the collective impact that we can do together as a healthcare industry to, um, to improve and make health more equitable and also make sure that Poverty disappears.
I think that’s the ultimate goal that you’re trying to push with organizations. So thank you for for that.
Rob Perez: Amen. Thanks for having me, Naji. I appreciate it.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, for a special episode in partnership with Jill Donahue for her new book “A Dose of Inspiration: 100 purpose stories from Pharma Leaders”. I am joined today by Julie Kim President of the U.S. Business Unit, U.S. Country Head and member of Takeda’s Executive Team. Julie joined Takeda in 2019 through the acquisition of Shire, where she held several diverse roles with increasing responsibility. Julie has 30 years of experience in health care, with leadership positions at global, regional, country and functional levels. Julie is known for strong, collaborative and inclusive leadership that enables Takeda to meet the needs of the people the company serves while driving innovations that will improve patients’ lives. Her global outlook, a result of having worked in many countries in Europe, Asia and Latin America, as well as having lived in the U.K., Switzerland and the U.S., have helped her create teams that are diverse in multiple dimensions to enable inclusive decision-making that keeps the patient at the center. Julie serves on several boards and was named one of Boston’s 50 Most Influential Asian American Pacific Islanders in 2023, The 2022 PharmaVoice 100 list and Fierce Pharma’s list of 2020’s Fiercest Women in Life Sciences.
Julie, It is such a pleasure to have you with me today!
Julie Kim: Well, thank you for inviting me. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Naji Gehchan: Can you first share with us your personal story? What’s in between the lines of your inspiring career and journey?
Julie Kim: Sure, I guess if I’m going to share that story, I do have to go all the way back to my childhood for a brief moment. And I say that because I was born in Korea, and I was born to, you know, parents who had a very progressive way of thinking. So although the culture of the country at the time was very much Um, a hierarchical patriarchal society, my mother had chosen to go to medical school and practice medicine after she graduated, which was not.
And when she had me as a girl, that had certain implications. So for women in general, the idea of having a career and having a self directed life was not the norm. It wasn’t accepted. And so my parents decided to move. To the U. S. At that point, so we relocated to the U. S. When I was very little, um, and I grew up in Ohio.
And at the time, Ohio is not a very diverse place to grow up. I was the only person that looked like me, um, at school, and you can imagine all of the challenges that that brings to a child growing up. So I shared that little bit of the very beginning of my life. Because it had a significant impact on how I showed up as an individual in the in the workplace later on in life that aside, I would say that the early part of my career was really focused on the what making sure that.
I could deliver the best results, the best answers, the best solutions. I started in consulting and so it was about making the client happy by having the best solutions. And I didn’t really give a lot of thought to how I did things. Um, and unfortunately my, my mother passed away during this time frame.
And. You know, when she did, um, and I’ve, I’ve shared this story in, in other, uh, situations and other, um, podcasts and whatnot, but her, her funeral was, uh, uh, a turning point for me because there were so many people, uh, at that funeral. And I remember in having the conversation. With my dad at the time, like, I was very bothered by all the people who had come to, to something that I felt was a very personal family, um, event.
Why were all these strangers here? And, and he explained to me that they all wanted to come and pay their respects to her because she had somehow touched. Their lives, uh, and it was important to them to come and pay their respects, you know, and I, I had that, you know, moment of, wow, if I were to be hit by a bus right now, maybe I would fill the first couple of queues, not, not the whole church, because I knew I wasn’t, uh, the way that I was operating, as I said, I wasn’t really focused on the, how I wasn’t focused on the people around me per se.
I was just focused on delivering the results. So that began a very long journey of, okay, how do I still deliver top quality results, but do it in a manner that. Brings people along with me. And so that’s not necessarily on my CV, but I would say that was a big part of the early part of my career in terms of My story.
And then I would say the other piece that I would share that again is a little bit reflected on the on the CV is that I didn’t necessarily take a straight path. I had a mentor early on who said to me that when you are given the options, you won’t always have an option. But when you’re given the option, try to take it.
The option that will challenge you more. That’s the harder one. It’ll stretch you. You will feel uncomfortable. You, you might feel like you’re going to fail, but you will learn so much more by doing so. Um, and don’t necessarily be so caught up in, in, you know, going for the next promotion, make sure that you are stretching yourself and you are learning.
And that’s what I’ve tried to do throughout my career. So when you look at my CV, sometimes you might look at. Uh, the role, um, one role to the next and go, huh, I wonder why she did that. I wonder why she did that. I, why, why didn’t she just go from this level to a higher level, to a, the next higher level within a particular function?
And, and that is a, a big part of why I didn’t, and having this broad experience across different geographies, different functions, uh, different roles. I think it’s part of what contributes. to me being able to operate at the level that I operate today. So those are just a couple of things that I would share that are not necessarily, as you said, obvious from the CV, but I think play a significant role in getting me to where I am today.
Thank
Naji Gehchan: you, Julie, for sharing those powerful stories and experiences. I want to go back to the first experience you talked about the how. So can you tell us how you are combining now this impact on people and delivering exceptional results?
Julie Kim: Yeah, so I would say that the first piece is really spending time up front with the team in terms of what the expectations are.
Are that’s the starting place, because if everyone is not on the same page, here’s where we’re trying to get to here are the expectations here, the parameters, the time frame, et cetera, then it’s very difficult for people to be self motivated and to to drive forward to achieve objectives. So that needs to be clear for the team, right?
We talk about purpose. You talk about objectives. You talk about expectations. You make sure everything is clear up front. Then you have to let them know that I’m here to help. I’m here to support. I can work with you if something is new and it’s not clear. But otherwise, I’m going to let you find your path.
I’ve got my experiences. And, and I might have an idea of how I would like things to get there, but I’m not going to make everyone conform to my way and my experience. Because I think you shut off so many opportunities for innovation and creativity and improvements, to be honest, when, when you do that and selfishly a bit of learning.
So that’s, that’s the second piece. Being able to step back and giving your team the space to create on their own to learn and to find their way. But as I said, at the same time, making sure that they feel supported. So if they do get stuck, if there is a roadblock, you are there, I am there. To help remove the roadblock or to help show them.
Okay. Well, here, let me help you. If you’re stuck and you, you, you don’t have a clear path forward. So you can’t leave them completely alone to, to, to struggle a little bit of struggle is okay. But you also have to be there to support so that you can help them be successful. So I would say those are a couple of the things that I do to allow them.
The work to happen in a way that, um, uh, leverages individual strengths, individual creativity, but also provides enough support so that they can, uh, progress in their own learning.
Naji Gehchan: I loved how you’re framing it. And really in the beginning, you said something about being focused on the what, and in the what it was always providing the best.
The best solution. Uh, and then the how, uh, later on. So a lot of times, and even for people more in the expertise path, I would say in our industry, right? The, the, what is really important, like the excellence and what we’re delivering is really important. Uh, and I see sometimes executives having a hard time just letting go, as you said, and accepting that, you know, it.
Might not be exactly how you would do it, but it’s okay, actually. It’s not that it’s wrong. It’s just different because you let someone else was also brilliant to it instead. So how did you manage to get to the stage where. Really, you let go and you trusted your team, what was it only because you didn’t have time to do it anymore, or did you really do this work?
And so the fruit of this diverse, you know, outcomes that might happen. How did you get there?
Julie Kim: It’s hard for me to say that there was one pivotal moment. That got me there. I can give you a few different examples of things that helped me, um, move to, to this approach. I would say one thing is, uh, you know, I’ve had the, the fortunate, um, opportunity of having really good managers in my past and.
They did this for me, right? So one way is you, you learn from working with really strong managers. Okay. I really like how they did that. Let me try. So that that’s one piece of it. The second, um, I was attending a leadership meeting.
Over a dozen years ago, um, and they brought in a speaker and his name is, uh, Benjamin Zander and he and his wife had written this book called the art of possibilities. And one of the things in there talks about. Giving people in a right. So you give people trust to begin with in the story in the book.
The story is he gives his class, um, an A at the beginning of the semester, and he tells them to write an essay in terms of what they’re going to do to earn that a through the rest of the semester. And then he tells all of them, okay, so now you have an A, so show me that you did, you know, do the work that you said in your essay and the A is yours to lose, basically, instead of you have to, to earn it.
And so that was a really. Um, I would say a powerful aha moment for me before that. I was definitely a person that said, okay, you nausea, you have to earn my trust. I need to see you do X, Y, and Z before I will trust you to do something. So I was like, okay, well, let me, you know, again, try the reverse. And I’ve had some managers show me trust.
And I know how it makes me feel, right? I, I wanted to do 150 percent uh, more for that individual because they gave me that trust versus someone who says, Okay, Julie, I’m just going to give you this piece to do. And then once you show me that you can do that piece, well, I’ll give you a slightly bigger responsibility.
So that was the second piece. And then the other component around that is. Um, and I said a little bit the desire to keep learning and the humility to know that even though you think you’re a smart person, there’s always going to be someone who’s smarter and there’s always going to be someone who has a good idea and those good ideas can come from anywhere.
So I would say it’s a combination of all of those things that that have brought me to the place of. Being able to let go being able to, um, you know, learn from the team and allow them to experiment and create and give them the support say, you know, look. You might make a mistake here or there. That’s okay.
That’s how we learn. Right? So all of that put together, I think, is the way that you create the environment that people feel safe to do what they need to do, uh, and experiment, learn and grow.
Naji Gehchan: Certainly. Um, you talked about also the beginning, uh, purpose. objective expectations and the importance of setting them.
Uh, so I’d love to know how you, specifically on the purpose, since we’re in an industry where we’re waking up every day to make life better for patients. Even in this industry, several times with my teams, with people I, I talk to, it’s sometimes hard to remember that With all the hundreds and tons of things we’re doing every day operationally, right?
Like, it’s easy to forget why we’re doing what we’re doing. So I’m interested in how do you make this purpose live on a daily basis for your broad organization?
Julie Kim: Yeah, I, you know, I agree with you in terms of our industry. It’s It’s relatively easier than some other industries to have that purpose that, that, that drive to you because we’re all focused on the patient and making a positive impact, um, for them.
So I think that is not any different, um, in my organization, uh, I would venture to, to guess in any other pharma, um, organization, but it is being able to bring it to the forefront. On a regular basis. So, you know, within our organization, we have something we call P. T. R. B. Patient trust reputation business.
And this is our decision making framework. Is it the right thing to do for patients? Does it build trust with society? Does it support a positive reputation for the company? And then, you know, Does it help build a sustainable business? And it’s always in that order. And so you’ll hear this vernacular in our discussion when we’re debating something.
Okay, but is this really? PTRB, are we forgetting the P or are we forgetting the T or et cetera, et cetera? So part of it is in the language that we use and we’re able to always bring it back to the patient. And the second thing is bringing some of those stories to life, especially when you get into a heated argument and you know, maybe you’re trying to trade off OpEx and and it’s really, you know, you’re deep in the numbers.
You have to have sometimes the the wherewithal To pause and say, okay, but look in the end, right? Remember who we’re doing this for. And is this actually going to help us achieve that goal for this patient group? Yes or no, right? So it’s in little ways. Um, and then it’s also in, in, in bigger ways, like, you know, bringing patients into speak at a town hall, um, you know, playing a patient video before a cross functional meeting kicks off.
A variety of different ways to make sure that we bring that purpose to the front.
Naji Gehchan: You know, one of my favorite questions and it’s reminded me while you were talking about it was, would a patient really care? I, I used to ask it a lot for my marketers and say, you know what, you’re debating opex, as you said, or even sometimes like colors or what can we have on a, you know, on a leaflet or whatever, like what a patient really care at the end of the day.
And this is how you always would bring it back to patients. I want to pivot now to, um, what something you’re passionate about. And I think you, uh, shared, uh, early on your story and, um, and being, um, in, in Ohio. You talk a lot about inclusive leadership and you’re passionate about inclusive leadership. So I’m interested to learn more.
How do you define this and how do you link it to business impact too? Yeah.
Julie Kim: I, I think a simple way that I think about inclusiveness is about Giving people a voice. So, again, having grown up in the environment that I did, I was often the outsider. I was often not given a voice. I was often made to feel less.
I was often made to feel that even if I was given a voice, it wasn’t heard or it was less. Of a voice. So again, that context, I think, helps to, um, create the appreciation for wanting to give everyone, uh, a voice that should be in the room. So this is not about, you know, um, having 100 person meetings so that everyone can can have their say, right?
But that’s that’s dysfunctional. But when you are looking at whether it’s a meeting or particular topic, Making sure that the stakeholders all of the relevant stakeholders do have a voice so that it’s not just the loudest person in the room gets to say what they want to say, and everyone then aligns to that or that the leader.
It’s making the space so that the different voices can be heard so that we can then have a robust debate and dialogue about the different views that are represented in those voices, and then coming to a decision. And there’s plenty of research on That will show you when you have those multiple voices to inform a decision, the decisions tend to be better.
And you then that’s where the performance piece comes in. That’s where those, you know, high standards come in and being able to drive that. That excellence. And so that over time has happened. So being able to demonstrate that you can deliver high results, excellent results comes from, for me, having these diverse voices being heard, being accounted for, and then making decisions based on.
I
Naji Gehchan: more than relate to this. So thank you for sharing it. I’m going to give you now one word and I’d love your reaction to it. And the first one is leadership.
Julie Kim: My reaction to leadership. I think leadership is something that is sorely needed in the world today. Let’s just say in a, in a broader context, uh, leadership, I think is something that is earned.
It is something that, um, everyone can do in terms of leading them self, but leadership at an enterprise level is something that is earned. It is not something that is ordained. You might be made CEO, or you might be made a leader of a particular team. But if you really want to be, um, to wear the leadership, uh, mantle, you need to earn that from the organization.
What about growth mindset? Growth mindset to me is a little bit about what we’ve talked about earlier. It’s about allowing, um, individuals to experiment, to try different things, to make mistakes, to learn from that and to keep growing. It’s to reframe and look at what is possible instead of saying why all the things can’t happen.
Belonging.
Belonging to me is, uh, you know, if we go back to what we were talking about a little bit before, that you have a voice and that you are heard and that you are welcomed because of it.
Naji Gehchan: The last word is spread love and organizations.
Julie Kim: Me, this is about caring and I think caring is something that I remember earlier in my career. I was told that you shouldn’t care. That is a sign of weakness. It’s not about caring. It’s about just delivering the results. And I would say that today, that is the worst advice that can be given.
And absolutely, you should care. Care about yourself. Care about your team, care about your stakeholders, your, your organization, and that caring to me is about is how you spread the love.
Naji Gehchan: I love this, Judy. And obviously, if you care, you’re going to hold yourself and your people to an even higher standard and deliver even more.
So I. Totally relate to that. And that’s the idea of all this, this podcast, bringing incredible leaders like you who are doing it and who care for their people and the patients we serve to deliver exceptional results. Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?
Julie Kim: Healthcare is a very difficult, complex area. It is not something that, uh, We can be successful as a single organization or a single set of stakeholders within the whole healthcare ecosystem. I think everyone would agree that the healthcare ecosystem is stressed at the moment and we all need to work together in order to make it a more sustainable environment.
And so I would just ask that we continue to reach across. And work with each other, um, from, let’s say, a multi stakeholder approach to try to make sure that we can build thriving, sustainable healthcare ecosystems globally.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Julie, for being with me today and this incredible chat.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Julie Kim first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, for a special episode in partnership with Jill Donahue for her new book “A Dose of Inspiration: 100 purpose stories from Pharma Leaders”. I am joined today by Kevin Williams, Chief Medical Affairs Officer, Global Medical Excellence & Innovation, at Pfizer. Kevin joined Pfizer in January 2004 as a Director, Regional Medical & Research Specialists working in the HIV disease area. After moving into a Team Leader position in July 2005, he has served in various leadership roles during his career in the company. Kevin is also Co-Chair, Board of Directors for SAGE, the country’s leading national non-profit organization focused on advocacy and services for LGBT+ elders. Kevin received his medical degree from the UCLA School of Medicine, a Masters in Public Health and a Juris Doctorate from Harvard Law School. Kevin, It is such a pleasure to have you with me today!
Kevin Williams: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Naji Gehchan: Can you first share with us your personal story? From being on the forefront of HIV/ AIDS patient care to now leading a large organization in pharma… What is your purpose story?
Kevin Williams: I grew up in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
My father was a physician. In fact, he was the third African American physician in Baton Rouge. And I grew up. seeing him in practice, watching him, uh, take care of patients. I often went on hospital rounds with him or, uh, on house calls back in the days when physicians still made house calls and, uh, I got to see up close and personal, the practice of medicine and his work inspired me.
Um, when I became a teenager during the summers, I actually. I worked at his office for two weeks when his receptionist would go on vacation and, uh, I got to help him, uh, take care of patients. I managed the front desk, checked patients in, took them back to the exam rooms. And, uh, I was inspired by, by what he did and knew that I wanted to go into, uh, into medicine.
And so after college, I. Apply for medical school ended up moving out to Los Angeles and going to medical school at at UCLA. And I will say that part of that decision, um, was influenced by personal factors within within my life. And I think it’s an important. Point to note that I am a member of the LGBTQ plus community because that that did impact the decisions that I made in terms of where I went to medical school.
And, you know, at the time I went to college, uh, in New Orleans at Tulane University, 60 miles away from Baton Rouge, thinking that, uh, I would be able to come out, um, and Live my my life is in my as my authentic self and I found that I still remained in the closet because I was so close to Home, so I’m when I just made a decision to go to medical school I decided I need to get far away so that I can be my authentic self as well as study medicine and and so I ended up in Los Angeles and after a medical school did a residency in internal medicine and wasn’t sure at that point what my next step was.
I had a pull between going into private practice and seeing patients, but also being interested in academic medicine. So, I decided to do a fellowship in health services research. and got a master’s in public health at that time back at UCLA in Public Health and was doing research looking at access to care for HIV positive individuals and the impact of access on outcomes.
It was, you know, fascinating research. It was really important and needed at the time, but I found that during the two years of my fellowship that my clinical skills were deteriorating and, you know, I actually did end up taking an academic position, um, at UCLA. But after six months, I ended up leaving because I really felt that I needed to take care of my community.
And that’s how I got involved in, in HIV and AIDS care. Um, when I left, uh, academic medicine, it was really the height of the AIDS epidemic. So I, I finished my fellowship in, uh, 91 and began practice in the beginning of 1992. At the time we went into practice, there were very few. medications available for, uh, people living with HIV and AIDS.
At the time, it was really AZT, DDI, and DDC were the only medicines available. Um, but I knew that I had to be down in the trenches, taking care of my community. Um, and that was really what drove me into leaving academic medicine and going into private practice. And I ended up staying in private practice for eight years.
Doing HIV medicine and it was an amazing time. It was incredibly rewarding. Um, I felt that I was able to take care of members of my community to be there in a way for them that I thought was important, knowing that many of them were not going to survive this illness, but being able to be compassionate, caring, empathetic.
force in their lives. Uh, as these 2030 40 year old people were dealing with death and dying at a time when they should be really experiencing the best parts of their lives, having aspirations and doing new things and they’re dealing with issues of death and dying. So it was a very very rewarding time to, um, work with those individuals to have very intense relationships with patients.
And, you know, that things changed and In HIV, we got combination therapy, different classes of medications, and patients were doing better. And my practice was beginning to evolve. It was becoming less HIV, more general internal medicine, and I thought maybe There was an opportunity now for me to do something different because I thought I had skills and capabilities that were not being fully utilized in the practice of medicine, leadership skills, strategic thinking, uh, that I wanted to put into effect.
And initially I had the idea of getting involved in health care policy and I decided that I would go to law school with the idea being that. Having a background in medical practice and HIV, uh, mass and public health, uh, and a law degree would paint an interesting package for somebody who wanted to get involved in health care policy.
Um, so I ended up moving from Los Angeles to Boston, uh, went to Harvard for law school. And after I graduated. Decided that that actually was not the career path that I wanted to take and was really at a crossroads because now I had to figure out what that next move was. And I actually wasn’t sure what it was.
I ended up moving down to New York and started looking for opportunities. And. Um, honestly, was not looking to join the pharmaceutical industry when this opportunity, uh, arose at Pfizer. Um, uh, you know, for for those of us who went to medical school or pharmacy school, uh, it will sound familiar when I say that they drill into your head that the pharmaceutical industry is the dark side, the evil empire.
And So honestly, I had that perception of industry when this opportunity presented itself to me at Pfizer, and I was not really looking to join industry, but this opportunity was, uh, too good for me to pass up. It was an opportunity to get back into working in HIV and AIDS, which is an area that I was passionate about as a field based medical individual, MSL.
And so I decided to take a chance. And I joined Pfizer, uh, in January of 2004 and never looked back. I mean, 20 years later, still at the company, um, had an amazing career during my, my time. I’m at Pfizer, you shared some of. uh, the opportunities that I’ve had and my ability to move into different roles, different leadership roles to have different experiences in different therapeutic areas and develop both personally and professionally.
So it has really just been an amazing journey.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Kevin, for sharing this powerful and inspiring journey of yours. I certainly relate to Several parts of it. I want to start with with one specifically, uh, you said you were you worked in the trenches, right? You help people the moment they needed it most.
Um, and obviously, I’ve had this as I shared briefly with you before, uh, in moment and tension and war. And then now you’re doing it in a different way and impacting people in different ways. So I’m sure you two talk with a lot of scientists, physicians who are thinking about this transition. What is your number one advice of how they should think about their impact moving from really immediate care for patient to the pharma industry?
Kevin Williams: The impact that you have is, is different in, uh, it’s at a different level, um, in private practice. The impact that I had was very immediate and it was very individual. Um, as I saw patients. You know, evolve, improve or perhaps not improve. But there was that kind of one on one immediate interaction relationship and immediate feedback.
Uh, I think in the pharmaceutical industry, it’s a little bit different. Uh, the impact is not as immediate, but it can happen on such a larger scale because you’re bringing medicines Uh, to patients that, you know, have these medical needs and you that are making a difference in their lives, and you’re doing it on a much larger scale than than you’re able to do when you’re in private practice.
So it’s a different type of impact, but it’s, uh, equally as powerful. And I think, you know, they, uh. Um, I’ve often been asked which is which is better. And I would say that they’re different there. You know, it’s not that one is better than the other. The impacts are so different. And the experience of what you’re able to deliver is so different when you’re one on one versus when you are working in a large company.
Um, and You know, there are other aspects of working in a large company that I think, um, uh, are also, uh, critical, at least for me, they were, uh, because it’s not just the impact that I have on patients. But one of the things that, you know, that I, that I talked about in terms of skills and capabilities that I felt that I had that were not being fully utilized in medical practice was that I love.
to teach, and I love to mentor people. And I didn’t really have that opportunity as much in medical practice, uh, as I did when I moved into the pharmaceutical industry, the opportunity to lead large teams and groups and organizations to help colleagues develop and advance in their career paths. To help watch them grow in their careers is very rewarding.
And so in addition to the impact that I could have on patients, there’s also the impact that I could have on my colleagues, uh, and which. You know, just add so much more to the experience.
Naji Gehchan: So talking about this specifically, the leadership impact and your leadership impacts you’re having on your teams, you’re a purpose driven leader, I believe.
I’m intrigued how you drive this purpose and making sure that your team on a daily basis, as we all can be so taken into our operational work and forgetting this larger picture of why we do what we do. I’m interested to know how you drive this with your teams at a large scale
Kevin Williams: now. We always keep the patient front and center of everything that we do.
We often talk about The patient, uh, talk about patient care, talk about the importance of the work that we do to bring medicines, uh, to address unmet medical needs. Uh, so ensuring that you’re always keeping the patient front and center and all that you do, uh, always talking about the importance of that is really critical, I think, to maintaining your purpose and to keeping it as your North Star.
You said something in
Naji Gehchan: the beginning. I would love to go back to you talked about authentic self. And those days, unfortunately, we’re seeing more acts of hate. If I don’t think we should call them non love, but really acts of hate towards different communities and a lot of tensions instead of care and love as we both believe in leadership.
Um, and it’s. We had this discussion yesterday, even with my partner and we’re saying, yeah, well, do people keep these things at check at the door before they come to work? How should we deal with it as leaders? So I’m interested to understand from your lens, how, how are you doing this? How are you ensuring your people come and can be at their best and can really be who they are?
Kevin Williams: I think the best way to do that is to role model the behavior. Um, if you bring your authentic self, um, uh, show your vulnerability, be exposed, uh, it encourages others to do so. If you create an environment where people feel comfortable being themselves, then they will excel and do their best work. Uh, and so the way that I do that is by Being my authentic self.
I’m, I’m very open about, uh, being a, a gay man. Uh, I, I think it’s important, uh, uh, to model that behavior and that openness so that others, uh, who May feel less secure or less comfortable being open about whatever it is that, you know, that, that, that they’re not letting others see, you will feel that they’re in a safe space where they can be more open because I think the more you’re able to do that, the more you’re going to enjoy what you’re doing, the, the, and the more you enjoy what you’re doing, the better you’ll be at it.
Naji Gehchan: I’m going to move now and give you a word. And I’d love a reaction from you. So the first, the first word is leadership.
Kevin Williams: Leadership is about, well, I’ll tell you an interesting, this is my, this is how I think about leadership. Um, I was watching the, uh, NFL, the National Football League. Playoffs. This is probably 10 years ago. And before the game started, you know, they’re doing an interview and they’re interviewing, uh, Shannon Sharp, his former tight end for the Denver Broncos.
And they asked him. What do you look for in a coach? And I thought his response was so spot on that I used it all the time when I talked to people about leadership, because what he said is, you know what I need from a coach is someone to put me in a position to succeed. And then let me do my job. And so when I think about leadership, you know, my job as a leader is to make sure that my people have the tools, the resources, the feedback, the coaching, the support that they need to be successful, and then trust that they know what they’re doing and empower them to do their jobs.
What about patient centricity?
Patient centricity is the north star of all that we do. It is the hallmark of being in a medical role in the pharmaceutical industry. Uh, it is the hallmark of being in any role in the pharmaceutical industry. Uh, It is critical to all that we do that the patient is the reason that we do what we do, and patient centricity means not just thinking about the patient, but including the voice of the patient.
One of the things that you mentioned is that I’m co chair of the board of SAGE, which is a non profit. Uh, LGBTQ plus elder organization focused on advocacy and services for LGBTQ plus elders. And one of the things that we say, uh, is nothing about us without us. And, you know, it’s a, it’s a phrase that, that many will use, uh, but I think it’s so important that when we think about patient centricity, that we include the voice of the patient in all that we do and understand that it.
You know, it is not our responsibility to speak for the patient. It’s our responsibility to listen to the patient and make sure that The medicines that we’re developing are meeting their needs, not the needs that we think they have.
Naji Gehchan: That’s so powerful. Nothing about us without us. And I love how you said our responsibility is to listen to patients and bring their voice to what we’re doing daily. The third one is health equity.
Kevin Williams: Health equity. Is understanding that
you can develop the best medicine in the world to treat a specific condition, but if you are not taking into account the other factors that influence whether or not that medicine makes it to a patient, then, uh, you know, you’ve, you’ve failed at your responsibility. People come to the table with different levels of understanding.
Access education background, socioeconomic conditions, all of those things influence their ability to access the health care system to access medicines to understand the, uh, the dynamics, the importance of, uh, taking medicines, uh, all of these things contribute to the health of. The individual patient and unless you are able to understand all of the different influences and address them, you know, you may very well be feeling that patient in front of you because, you know, either they don’t understand, uh, what you’re asking them to do, um, they don’t have access.
They don’t know the questions to ask. Um, and I’ll give you An example of, um, a situation I had with a, uh, with a, with a patient. Um, and it was a It was a 70 year old black male that came in to see me and he had, um, he was, he was HIV positive and I treated him, uh, with medication at the time, Virocept, a protease inhibitor.
And the way that you take Virocept is it’s three pills, um, and it’s taken three times a day. So a total of nine pills a day. I told him, uh, And when I prescribed the medications, three pills, three times a day, I found when he came back in three months later, he had been taking one pill three times a day.
And so I asked him about that. He goes, well, you said three pills, three times a day, which he interpreted as one pill, three different times and three different times. Uh, and it occurred to me that. You know, just because I understand something doesn’t mean that the patient understands and it’s important to check for that understanding health literacy, big part of health equity, right?
So that’s and that’s just one example. And, you know, the consequence of that misunderstanding could be fatal because he could develop resistance. To the virus can develop resistance to that produce inhibitor because, uh, he was having an adequate blood levels of that medicine. So, uh, it’s important, uh, to be sure that you are clear.
Uh, you understand all the components of what’s going on in the patient’s life to ensure that you’re able to deliver the best care possible. What a great
Naji Gehchan: example. I’m sure if I want to just double click on that. How are you translating this today as an executive in the pharma world? Like how I also constantly thinking about this, obviously.
Uh, and I’d love your thoughts, how you translate health equity and our responsibility at healthcare leaders. Uh, in the pharma industry to ensure that we’re making real moves to improve that.
Kevin Williams: I mean, I think it’s important that, um, that that be part of what we do as pharmaceutical leaders, that it’s not just about bringing medicines to market that address medical needs, but that we’re also funding initiatives and efforts that address some of the The issues around health equity, whether that be around access or whether it be around health literacy, work that you do with plain language summaries to make sure that patients have access to information and in a way, uh, that they can understand it and digest it.
So we can’t just be about bringing the medicine to market. We have to think about all those other influences on. getting access to that medicine and where we feel we can make an impact and make a difference. We also need to, to be involved and, you know, to resource those areas.
The last
Naji Gehchan: word is spread love and
Kevin Williams: organizations.
I think it is, um, one of the things that, uh, I have always tried to do in, uh, in standing up a team or a group is to create an environment where people feel nurtured and cared for. Um, and, you know, that means creating an open, transparent. Environment where people can come to you. I mean, again, I talked about being their authentic selves and so modeling that behavior I think is important.
I think it’s also, uh, listening more than you speak. Um, it is asking people, you know, how they feel, ensuring that they feel cared for and listened to, um, and creating an environment where they feel they can do their best work.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around
Kevin Williams: the world?
I think you have to, um, well, I actually, there are a couple of things I would say. One, uh, uh, I think you have to be willing to step outside your comfort zone. Because only when you step outside your comfort zone, do you grow and learn. If you just keep doing what you already know how to do, you’ll never grow.
Uh, so it’s important to step outside your comfort zone, no matter how scary it is. I feel with every opportunity that I’ve taken on that was new and challenging. Uh, it was, it was terrifying, but I was a better leader. Because I took on that opportunity and maybe the corollary to that is I would say, so it’s important to believe in yourself and to believe in your ability and do your best.
I will tell you one final story that I love that my father told me. When, um, I was growing up, uh, and it’s a, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of about believing in yourself. Uh, when, when my father was in medical school, he went to Howard, uh, uh, medical school, he said he had a classmate and the classmate, uh, said to him one time, he said, uh, Al, his name was Alvin, he said, Al, Um, you know, medical school is so hard and I don’t know how I’m going to make it.
Um, and when I start to feel that way, I go down the hall where they have all the pictures of the previous graduating classes. And I look at all of those photos and I say to myself, you know, I’m going to be fine. I know I’m going to make it through medical school because there’s got to be somebody up there who’s dumber than me.
So you got to believe in yourself.
Naji Gehchan: I love it. Well, thank you so much, Kevin, for being with me today and this great chat.
Kevin Williams: Thank you so much. I appreciate
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by I’m Naji your host and I’m thrilled to be with Jill Donahue a global thought leader in pharma. Jill has won multiple awards for her work, author of 2 soon 3 books, delivering talks at global conferences, publishing in industry journals and serving pharma teams. Jill also co-founded The Aurora Project; a global volunteer group of thought leaders trying to illuminate commercial pharma’s path to patient centricity. This is my second episode with Jill, for a special “dose of inspiration”.
Jill, it is always good to see you and such a pleasure to have you again with me on the show!
Naji Gehchan: Before going right into your new book, Dose of Inspiration, can you tell us a little bit more about your story?
Jill Donahue: Sure. Well, and I’m sorry, because you know my story, but let me, let me share with others, I guess, and, and that really goes to why I’m, I’m writing this book, I suppose. So, my story goes back to, um, a long career in the industry and, um, very, very interested in the behavioral science aspect of how we better engage people.
And I think that really the big fuel for that was, uh, you know, watching my father die as a result of prescribing her and, uh, being in pharma. Reflecting on, you know, what if, what if dad’s doctors at MSL, KM, rep, whomever, had have been better able to access and engage my dad’s doctor, uh, to know the right product at the right time for the right patient, you know, things could have been so different.
So, I left Big Pharma two years after dad died and, um. I started studying this full time and was learning stuff that I was really excited about and wanted to share. So I wrote a couple of books about it and started speaking from global stages and, and, and, and, and talking with leaders around the world.
And that’s where I met you actually a few years ago in Barcelona, right? That was, um, how we met around that. So, um, That led to teaching, teaching what I was learning and one of the big things I was learning was when we are purpose driven, we do better, you know, that mindset shift changes everything. So we created this, this journey and that brings me to the book, this latest book, but we created this journey called The Power of Purpose, where we, um, take people through an exercise to help them connect with their why, you know.
Where’s the meaning for you in work? Why do you work here in pharma? And I’d run these programs with people and, um, groups would share their stories. Right. And it was so powerful. And then that I found myself going into the kitchen after these group shares and, and, you know, often through tears, sharing with my family, Oh my gosh, you won’t believe this story.
It was so amazing. I’m so inspired by these people. And then it occurred to me, this is silly. right? Like, why would I just share it with my family? What if I could share these stories, these amazing stories of how people in pharma find their purpose and meaning in their work? What if I could share them more broadly?
And so that’s when the idea came up for Well, let’s put them in a book so and so that’s what we’re calling it a dose of inspiration a hundred purpose stories of farmer leaders. And, um, so you got more than you asked for there. You asked me what my, you know, my background and I gave you that and then more.
Sorry about that.
Naji Gehchan: No, but I love it. And this is that was my first question. Now that you heard more than 100 purpose stories. Why are you putting them in a book? But you answered this. So let me go to what are you hoping this book will bring? to those who would read it. Well, what difference Are you hoping this book will make?
Jill Donahue: Yeah. Well, our experience is when people connect with their purpose, and interestingly, you know, studies show there’s just a McKinsey report that said about 15 percent of us, 1. 5 percent of us, are connected to our purpose at work. And that’s just such a shame, because there’s also huge evidence that shows the people who are connected to their purpose, those are your best People, they’re the ones who go home happiest, the ones that have the highest results, they perform better, they’re healthier, they live longer.
There’s incredible evidence, right? So when people connect to their purpose. They do better, they go home happier, they ultimately create better patient outcomes, right? So if we can, and I know, you know, I love the groups that I work with, I love having this impact on people, but there’s so many pharma people in the world that I’m never going to touch.
So if this book You know, back to your question, what do we hope this book will do? Our hope is that it will be literally a dose of inspiration to get people to think about, Hmm, why am I here? Well, maybe I should think about connecting to my purpose too, because I know from my experience with these programs and from the incredible literature, the evidence out there, that when people do connect with their purpose in pharma, we change more lives.
Not only the lives of the people in the Indi in the organization, but the HCPs that they touch, the, you know, the stakeholders out there and ultimately the patients. So that’s my hope that it’ll inspire people to think about it.
Naji Gehchan: So as you know me pretty well, I’m definitely connected to my purpose and this is why I wake up every morning coming to pharma trying to help patients live better.
One of the first feedback when you start working on your purpose, it’s not, it’s not easy. Some people feel it’s too broad. Is it even true that if I connect to it, uh, something will happen? So how, what would you tell your audience, right? Like it’s, we’re doing kind of the similar work, inspiring others to podcast on the stories.
But I’m intrigued, someone who wants to connect to their purpose, what would be your biggest advice to them on how to do it?
Jill Donahue: Yeah, it’s so interesting, Najee, because The way I see it is we’re on this hamster wheel, right? We’re going, going, going, round and round and round. And we don’t often take the time to step off and look back to where we’ve been, right?
So that we can better see where we’re going. Another way of looking at it is taking a helicopter view of your life. You’re so busy in life. You’re in this forest and you can’t see. The forest through the trees or what is it? The trees to the forest, forest to the trees. Anyway, you can’t see where that path in front of you, but when you step out of it and allow yourself to dig in.
And the funny thing is when, whenever we talk about purpose, I know if I could see the bubble over people’s heads, I know they’re immediately thinking of family, right? And I don’t want to deny that, of course, for all of us, when you, you know, why do you live? Well, for my family, right? Yes. My kids, my mother, my, whoever it is, right?
Whatever family is to you and you can go further. So I want people, I want to say to them, you know, when you think about purpose, you can think about it in three ways. There’s one, your personal purpose. So for many of us, that’s family. Then there’s your organizational purpose that you work for. And we’re so blessed.
In pharma right in health care that any organization that we work for ultimately is doing good in the world, right? Saving improving lives. That’s a beautiful. Organizational purpose, and then there’s a third purpose, which is your role purpose. So Daniel Pink, who I just love and admire, and I’ve had the privilege of interviewing him a couple times, he describes it as the organizational purpose is your big P, capital P, right?
And he said, in pharma, you’ve got that in healthcare, you guys got that right, save and improve lives. But that little P, that’s your role purpose, how you feel connected to that organizational purpose that he says is missing. And when you can connect those. That’s when the sparks fly. So my advice to people is look beyond.
Yes, of course, your main purpose in life is to serve your family. And if you really want to live your best life, find meaning in your role as well. Connect your role purpose to your organizational purpose. And I think everyone out there can do this, no matter what your role in the world is, especially in pharma.
Like our organizational purpose is so noble. And when you connect the dots between what you do and how that ultimately impacts helping people, purpose always comes from helping people, basically. So, think about it. How does your role help people, help people, help people, help patients, potentially?
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, I, I certainly fully agree, you know, and as you’re saying in pharma, we have this noble purpose with a huge responsibility, right?
Of, of making life better for patients. And every single person working is making it happen. It’s sometimes tough, you know, when you’re, as you said, into your daily. work into the weeds of what you’re doing operationally to just think about it, but each one of us is making it closer to patients somehow, either faster or more broad, but every single person in the healthcare system is working towards this.
Jill Donahue: Yeah. Otherwise you wouldn’t have a job, right? You’re there for a reason. And it’s interesting because so many people will say, Oh yeah, but not me. They’ll have their arms crossed and say, you know, I don’t touch the patient. I was like, well, very few of us touched the patient, right? And your role is still important.
And I tell the story about, um, Johnny Johnson. Have I told you this story, the Johnny Johnson story? He’s a, um, He’s a, uh, a bus driver, like a shuttle bus driver. And I met him on the shuttle bus from our rental car at the airport to the terminal. And in the, in that moment, you know, that five minute bus ride, he managed to get all of us smiling and feeling good with his energy and his announcement over the loudspeaker about how proud he was to serve such an amazing group of people, because we were the ones who not just planned a trip, but we made it happen.
And anyway, I approached him after and said, Johnny, I just. I love your attitude, like where, where does that come from for you? And he said, well, I had a choice, you know, I had my master’s home and I came here and I drive the shuttle bus to, to make a living and I had a choice to make, was I going to be just driving a circle or, or trying to help people make a difference?
So I decided my job was to make people smile. And I said, wow, so you go home with this gorgeous smile on your face. We all have smiles. Plus I said, I bet you make more money than the other guys. And he said, yeah, I make, uh. About a hundred bucks a day, and I said, well, that’s fabulous. So what do the other guys make?
And he said, 40. And then he added, you know, one day on my birthday, I made 500. And I said, oh my gosh, amazing. And then he said something and I was like, okay, that’s the mic drop moment. That is exactly what I teach in the program. He said, he put his hand on his heart and he said, it’s got to come from here.
It’s got to be authentic. I said, ah, that’s it right there, right? You need to go inside yourself and discover what it is about helping people that makes your heart sing, right? And, and I also advise the people I teach, you know, if you really don’t care about people and patients, I’m not sure healthcare is the place you should be, because that’s really what it’s all about, helping people.
So, yeah, dig deep, go in there to peel back the layers of the onion. I also say back to, you know, what’s my advice for people? Peel back the layers and find out, you know, where does that desire to help people come from? And we’ve discovered some things through the, through our experience with helping hundreds and hundreds of pharma professionals, um, about where the origin of that might be.
And we talk about that in the book. Um, you know, for a lot of people, it, it comes from values that they were taught. You know, I find your story fascinating, right, from, from your upbringing. And if people haven’t heard that episode, they should really listen to your story, right? I don’t know if you want to give a little Thanks, Jill, for the mention.
Where do you think your value, yeah, where do, where do you think your connection to that meaning came from? Like, if you were to summarize that, where do you think?
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, certainly. As you said, and probably some of the listeners heard it before, it certainly came very early on, right? Seeing, um, being a kid who was born during the war, seeing how we can help people in need.
Uh, I certainly very early on wanted to make sure that I can help people, uh, what they are most of their need. And this is why I ended up in, you know, becoming a physician and working in humanitarian work. Uh, and as you said, you said something, uh, very true. Several times you hear people saying, yeah, we’re not touching the patient.
So I can tell you I’ve, I’ve I’ve been fortunate enough to be able to help people in ER or in, uh, during wartime and bombing zones, et cetera. I certainly touch patients. So you see the immediate impact that you can have, but being now in the pharma biotech industry, it’s just, it’s just different. I’m not touching them physically and helping them one at a time, but I’m so proud after now serving for more than 15 years in this industry.
Being able to say, I managed to launch drugs that help millions of lives that touch globally, right? So I think this is where sometimes we get into, okay, I’m not touching immediately, but actually the impact is, is massive and broader. Sometimes that’s what you can do at a hospital base or at a scene, uh, scene place.
Jill Donahue: Exactly. And the more people can get in touch with that, the better they do. And that takes effort. You know, the other thing I say to people back to that advice is it’s a choice. Being purpose driven is a choice. It doesn’t just happen. It’s something that you need to think on. And that’s another thing that we do in this program is how do you create that culture, right?
What are the things you need to start, stop, and continue to do? Number one is connect with your story. Like, why is helping people important to you? Like you, you can take it right back to that first moment as a child that you watched that Red Cross volunteer helping people. And you’re like, I want to be that person.
Right. And that drove you and still drives you. And what is it for other people? And you know, other people like, wow, I didn’t, I wasn’t born in a war zone, but you know, what is it for me? But you know, I was just talking to a person this morning and she talks about her, her mother was such a loving teacher and taught her the value of helping people.
And, uh, you know, or my grandmother invited everyone in around the dining room table. I saw the value of helping people there. Like, where does it come from for you? And then once you make that connection, then what are you going to do about it? You know, how does that change? What, how you, you know, think what you say and what you do, it changes everything.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. And how you will take it and make sure that your team every single day. is remembering the purpose and what we are serving and who we are serving daily. You know, the other challenge I’d love to get your thoughts on is, uh, purpose, values, culture. You talked about pieces where several times you hear some, some leaders, execs think, okay, the, all this is great, but at the end of the day, I need to deliver results.
So how do you think about this and how you combine both?
Jill Donahue: Yeah, I love that question. It’s so interesting because in our industry, we are so evidence based right with the life sciences. It’s all about evidence. Well, I encourage leaders to please look at the evidence in the behavioral sciences because it is abundant and rich.
The studies consistent that when we focus on our purpose. Good things follow for everyone. It is unequivocally the best thing that’s good for health care. It’s good for the employee. It’s good for the HCPs. It’s good for the company, which is the question you asked, and it’s good for patients. So the evidence on it being, um, contributing better outcomes is, you can’t deny it.
It is strong evidence. Interestingly, in the book, because I get this question so much like, Oh, yeah, that’s all good. Nice feel good thing. But I need to deliver numbers to global. I’m like, Oh, man, if only you knew, this is the way to do it, right? This is your biggest mistake that you’re not looking at the behavioral sciences about how, how to inspire people to do their best work, how to empower people to do their best work.
You know, there’s so many studies that say purpose is far less expensive and far more impactful than any incentive. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of the incentive program you’ve ever put in place, so just look at the literature and so in the book, I provide at the front of the book, a lot of that evidence, because I know.
You know, once people get it, the purpose is important, then they have to convince people that this isn’t just a feel good thing. This is actually, makes really good business sense. So I provide a lot of those references and studies to help people have that very discussion that you’re just introducing there.
But just, you know, bottom line, you’re evidence based people. Look at the evidence. It’s there. It’s abundant, rich. It will, it will change your mind on it. So we’re eager
Naji Gehchan: to, uh, to read the book, read all those stories and, and see those advices. Do you have one big learning after interviewing those 100 pharma execs?
Uh, what connects them to the purpose? Any common thread you felt in this book that you want to highlight?
Jill Donahue: Yeah, and, and this book is just a hundred of the many, many, many hundreds of, uh, pharma people around the world that I’ve, uh, worked with on, on purpose. And I do have a few key learnings and I share those in the book as well.
And I think, you know, the number one thing is, oh my gosh, Najee, people in our industry are so awesome. I just. Love working in this industry. I’m inspired every day by the people who work in our industry and how focused they are on making a difference and helping people and bringing their brilliant minds, whatever their expertise is to this big picture of healthcare to try to make it better.
And, um, and that inspires me, right? Just the, the. Quality of the people that we work with. That’s that’s one of my big takeaways. And as far as the takeaway on on where their purpose comes from, which you talked about earlier, um, there’s some different categories that I think for some people, it’s a first hand health care experience for themselves or a loved one.
But then there’s lots of people that that isn’t the case. And then they’re like, Oh, geez, I don’t have anyone who I’m like, No, that’s good. That’s okay. Right. Um, so for other people, it could be, um, we’ve seen for some people, it’s a real commitment to equity because of some equality that they had in their life and they want to help with that in healthcare.
Uh, for others, it’s, you know, these personal values and belief beliefs about helping others in healthcare and the importance of, of, um, service. And for some people, it’s like wanting to pay it forward, giving back, um, inspiration from parents and role models is another one. Um. Intellectual scientific curiosity is the beginning for some people, right?
So there’s many different triggers and everyone’s story may have a combination of those things too. It’s not necessarily just one thing. And also stories evolve over time, interestingly. Yeah, in the book I think I have, um, my six big takeaways from all the interviewing I’ve done, um, so those will be summarized too, uh, in there.
Naji Gehchan: Love it, Jill. And as you said, every everyone has a story, right? And everyone has a great story that inspire others. So I really love what you what you’ve done in the book. It’s why you talk about 100 as you know, we’ve been 100 and 20, uh, interviews also and podcasts and episodes with great leaders. And it’s certainly inspiring every, every person has an incredible story.
And I feel fortunate to be in this industry and hearing those stories every single time. I want to give you now a word and I love your reaction to it. The first one is leadership.
Jill Donahue: Love. Um, Yeah, you know, you and I both know that people are uncomfortable with that word in business, but um, whether it’s love or purpose, so perhaps I could have used the word purpose when I think of leadership, because I think it’s driven by, and purpose and love to me are connected as well, but it’s driven by that authentic caring for people, leadership, you have to care for people, and that’s what makes people follow you, with title or without, but that’s leadership.
You know, when people, um, admire you and trust you and believe you care for them, and perhaps the patients you’re serving together, that’s when you have leadership. That’s when people engage with you. That, to me, is the most important thing. For people to trust you, admire you, and believe you care for them, and the patients you’re serving together, that’s leadership.
In our industry, especially. What about story story? Um, so important. Interesting because, you know, people wear their business suit, right? We put on this suit and we present ourselves or we present the science. And we think that that’s going to engage people. It does not. And we work with so many scientists who are so driven that way, right?
And they think that the story, there’s no room for that with the business suit. And I encourage people to, to open that up. That the story is powerful beyond measure. That your story, the patient’s story, you know, I, I teach um, Scientists, MSLs and physicians, how to be more engaging presenters and I joke and say, you know, the first 30 seconds of your presentation will make or break the engagement with your audience and it better not be your disclosure slide, which, of course, they’re like, Oh, shoot.
Uh, so, you know, start with your story. Why are you here? Open up with. Before I get started, I think it’s important for me to share with you why I’m here and what my intentions are and give your four sentence version of your story. It will change the way people respond to you. Story is important. Long answer to your one word.
That’s a
Naji Gehchan: great, it’s great. The first one is a dose of inspiration.
Jill Donahue: The next word you want is a dose of inspiration. A reaction to it. My reaction, a dose of inspiration. I think that’s You know, I think of ripple effect, right? Um, if that dose of inspiration starts something, I love to think of the ripple effect that, that goes on from there.
So if I can just do that little drop, I think of it too, like, um, dose of inspiration, vitamin P, you know, we all take our vitamins every day, and I say, what’s your vitamin P for purpose every day? So maybe this dose of inspiration will be a little bit, you know, that vitamin that you take every day, you read one story to inspire you on a gray, tough day.
So, yeah, ripple effect, I guess. I’m hoping for. And do
Naji Gehchan: you know the last one I always ask, so I, I wanna ask it again. Spread love in organizations.
Jill Donahue: Oh, brilliant. Love it. As you know, you and I are on such a parallel path, Najee, and I am so, um, proud is the wrong word. It’s, I’m so impressed and grateful for the work that you’re doing, spreading love in organizations.
Um, and I, I just think it’s brilliant and so grateful that. You’re doing this work and so gratitude appreciation and, uh, yeah, keep going spread love and organizations.
Naji Gehchan: Oh, thank you so much. It means a lot and you’re definitely a big part of my journey and story as I’ve told you several times. Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?
Jill Donahue: I don’t know if I have wisdom. Um. I just encourage you, encourage people to, uh, don’t give up, you know, it takes effort to be focused on our purpose, but it’s well worth it. It is well worth it, but choose that every day and do what you need to do to choose that. Maybe this book, um, will be your first, uh, you know, drop in that ripple to see good things happen.
By the way, it’s free, right? We, I don’t think we’ve mentioned that. We want this book to spread, so we’ve made it a free ebook, so, um, yeah. Uh, maybe that’s my, my, uh, wisdom, as you say, but, uh, start somewhere with the, you know, keep that vitamin P going or start vitamin P, download the free ebook as a little place to start.
Naji Gehchan: I love it. Vitamin P. I will, I will add this and for sure, we will put the links to download the free book for, uh, for all our listeners, uh, and we’re eager to, uh, to see, read, hear those hundred stories. Thank you so much, Jill, for being with me again today. It’s just a great pleasure to talk
Jill Donahue: to you every single time.
And thank you. Think about the hundred people. You’ll see them soon in the book, but I have a huge thanks to them for being so vulnerable to be willing to expose their, their story, their journey to inspire others. They’re amazing folks. So big thanks to them. And thank you to you for hosting to you and Zena.
Thank you so much.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Jeff French a resilient, collaborative, and influential global leader who leverages deep expertise on digital and information technology, customer experience management, and brings broad business accountability experience in international sales, marketing, manufacturing, and finance in both the pharmaceutical and aerospace industries. Jeff has held multiple regional and global leadership roles, digitally transforming organizations, re-engineering and standardizing business processes, establishing and embedding next-generation systems and capabilities, all in pursuit of building better customer experiences and driving real value generation. Jeff is currently Senior Director at DT Consulting, a specialist strategy consulting organization supporting the pharmaceutical industry leadership in modernizing their organizations across commercial, medical, and R&D functions. Most recently, Jeff was the Chief Digital Officer at ViiV Healthcare and focused on building next-generation channels and services that leverage bold innovation and digital technology to deliver exceptional and unifying customer experiences, as well as valiant digital health innovations in the HIV therapy area. Prior to ViiV, Jeff worked at Biogen, Lilly, and also Rolls-Royce Aerospace.
Jeff, It is so great to see you again and have you with me today!
Jeff French: Thanks, Naji. Great to be here and appreciate the opportunity.
Naji Gehchan: Can you first share with us your personal story? What led you to healthcare, leading large transformations and digital teams and becoming a senior executive in health industry today?
Jeff French: Yeah, sure. Um, it’s been a, it’s been an exciting adventure. Um, one that was, a lot of people say is a bit unusual, uh, because what, where I started was in finance. Um, and coming right out of university straight into the aerospace and the finance capacity, um, and really focus some, my energy a lot around, uh, making sure I understood how the business worked.
Um, that’s the beauty of finance. You get to learn a lot of different things, uh, from, you know, manufacturing to, uh, you know, the, the HR people, administration, sales, marketing, everything. Um, and what kind of drove me, uh, from aerospace was, um, The opportunity that technology presented. Um, I was helping the, uh, the company I worked for implement, uh, SAP, right, which is back then was the big thing.
And everybody really, uh, focus some energy and some investment in it. And obviously at that stage, I was young. Um, I was traveling around the world for, for Rolls Royce, helping to implement new sales and marketing, uh, warranty programs. And then I got, I got a call after doing the IT work saying, Hey, why don’t you come help us out in a small, um, Uh, effort at Eli Lilly and company.
And so I did. I jumped ship and went over there. Um, still in a finance capacity, but focusing on I. T. And specifically S. A. P. Implementation for for finance. Um, and that’s what really got me into health care and what got me hooked. Um, and I started really understanding the way that the pharmaceutical industry works.
Um, the misunderstanding that sometimes is associated with that. Um, and how the real focus is on helping people live longer, better, healthier lives. And, but really understanding that, that from a lens of, of it and finance. Um, so I understood how the drugs were developed, how they were produced, how they were sold.
And that really carried me forward, uh, for kind of the middle part of my career in many different avenues. And I was fortunate that, um, one of those was to join a program that allowed me to go around the world, um, and work in many different countries in support of that goal of producing better business processes in the kind of finance IT arena.
And that just opened my eyes completely about the realities of global health, uh, the realities of what it meant to, uh, to, to help influence therapies in different countries on, on improving health outcomes globally. And, and it made it so that’s where I realized at that point I wanted to stay. Um. Um, and also at the same time, it also made me realize at that point, I spent about maybe half my life in the United States and I was sitting here going, okay, well, what’s next?
And the opportunity outside the U. S. also came, uh, to fruition where I was able to, you know, work in many different countries, but really cemented myself in the UK. Um, and that was great. Um, and, and from that point, it’s, it’s been a learning journey and it was in the UK where I started owning and controlling and managing.
Um, everything related to I. T. For Eli Lilly. Um, both on the infrastructure, the technology, the business side, but more importantly, also is where I got my first taste of the commercial side of the business and really implementing. Programs that made a difference in utilizing CRM, the websites, the emails, all that stuff really started coming into and that’s when I started owning and controlling that it was the place I wanted to stay.
I knew that I hit the sweet spot of the focus area that I wanted to be in. And it was it was new. It was, you know, we were all feeling it in our in our personal lives, and I wanted to figure out how to make that live and breathe in health care. And that’s what carried me forward. So from 2010 onwards, I focused pretty much solely on commercial, um, technology, digital engagement, digital transformation, data and analytics, um, and all in the support of building better customer experiences, better outcomes for patients, et cetera.
And so I did that with Lilly. Um, really, they helped me You know, kind of through that experience, build it up, learn it well, also taught me how to work with my leadership, you know, in that capacity to really make a difference. And then I left Lily to go work for Biogen, do the exact same thing, but globally with Biogen and, uh, really, really appreciate that, that opportunity, uh, but expanded a little bit, not only from, um.
An I. T. Perspective, really focusing squarely on digital and what that could do and do it differently. Um, and also get a little bit takes innovation at that stage. So I started playing around in the innovation world and the innovation agenda and how to think about the next generation of care standards and how to, um, create new ways around that.
And then that led me to be, uh, where I absolutely loved my time at B for four and a half years doing exactly that. But more importantly, pulling it through, um, making sure that everything that we, we helped create at VEVE actually pulled through into the lives of the people that, uh, were depending on HIV treatment.
And, um, it’s the first place I can honestly say at scale, we achieved a lot. Um, both in terms of getting the digital transformation out there, getting it embedded within the organization at a global level, and making sure that, uh, You know, campaigns and, you know, engagement activities were all leveraging these, these new standards of innovation around digital transformation, customer experience, management, um, and making sure, you know, we’re starting to see the real fruits of that, that, um, implementation and activities.
Thanks, Jeff,
Naji Gehchan: for sharing your story. Before we go into your passion of digital and tech, I’d want to start really from the leadership front. You’ve been leading through large transformation across multiple geographies, different countries. I’m interested to learn more about One of the key learnings you had dealing and managing those large transformations,
Jeff French: the first, probably the biggest one.
Um, and I learned it very early on. Um, and again, goes with kudos back to the leadership at Lily for helping me to realize this. Um. First and foremost, when you’re dealing with large transformations on a technical level, focusing on what creates a common understanding across the leadership is absolutely imperative.
And the common understanding in a healthcare organization is all about what you can do to create better outcomes. Biggest learning I ever had is always take it back to the people that matter for the organization. And in our case, in health care, the people that matter are the people that are taking the, um, and taking the product, taking the products and the patients, right?
At the end of the day. Um, and that’s the biggest learning is if you can always take it through. To that conversation about what the difference is going to be, what it will make in terms of value for the patient. Um, it’s something that gets everybody on that equal playing field. Um, and that’s something I still to this day hold very dear.
You always think about the outcome of what you do and that carried me forward. I think from Lily and the conversations executive leadership teams driving to common agendas. Right. That’s the other big thing. This is a common agenda around the patient, um, making sure those common agendas, common objectives across the leadership are shared.
Um, and in the case of IT and technology. It was hard, right? Because back then it was more of a service function, right? So it’s, how does that, but nowadays it’s part of the, the, what do we call the, the, the fluid nature of, of the healthcare business. And everybody has a bit of technology and everybody has a bit of finance.
It’s no longer a separate function that has to service. It’s actually something that’s embedded in pretty much everything they do. So that’s allowed me to carry this. You know, leadership focus forward on on the end result on the actual patient outcomes. Um, and it made me smarter in terms of how to talk about it, how to think through business cases, how to create, um, you know, discussions around return on investment and return on objective, which is also something that’s near and dear to my heart.
So these are things that, um, really, I hold dear. That was the first thing I learned, and it’s the thing I still to this day carry forward.
Naji Gehchan: I can totally agree and relate, obviously, all we do is having patient at the heart and the center of why we’re doing what we’re doing on a daily basis and in health care, and you touched on this.
So, uh, I’d love to get your thoughts. I think you kind of answered that, but it’s definitely cycles, right? Where you have always this debate between digital I. T. Business R. N. D. Sometimes we go and consolidate everything. Sometimes we separate them and it becomes more infrastructure and, you know, and customer experience who owns it.
So I’m sure you’ve gone through all those different journeys across thinking and in different companies. I’d love your perspective. And now if we look forward, as you said, like those pieces of technology are embedded in everything we do. But how do you think about it organizationally and how for you a successful.
Organization should look like to answer and integrate actually those breakthrough innovations we are having both from obviously the medical side and healthcare, but also incorporating all those breakthroughs in tech.
Jeff French: Yeah. So that’s a great question. Um, and so it’s an interesting one. Cause if, to your point, the cycles have continuously evolved towards the element of everybody having to have some responsibility towards it.
Um, but if you think about what’s next and where as a leader, how, You know, effective companies really grasp and take hold of what these new technologies bring to bear and take advantage of them. They’re starting to showcase those companies that think in the leadership group that think about that as a core competency.
Those are the ones that are getting ahead. Those are the ones that are doing the things that everybody else wants to do, but their history, their culture, the things that, um, Uh, you know, got him to where they are today are actually slowing them down because their mindset to to take hold and take advantage of these technologies is one of incremental innovation versus those that are really trying to change the game.
And you can see that in healthcare right now, and especially with a lot of the new startup. Um, you know, healthcare companies who are really taking full advantage of the fact they just don’t have all that debt. They don’t have all that history. They don’t have all that baggage, right, around their technology and digital.
It’s harder for them to just pick it up and shift, whereas new companies are doing it instantaneously from day one. And it’s a bit of a cliche, right? You know, startup companies, you know, like you saw in the dot com era, could come in and just, you know, boom and create new business models really, really quickly.
Well, the funny bit is Those who are taking the risk to do that now to really jump into that space, and it’s a bigger risk than it used to be, I think, um, are the ones that are actually achieving more right? Um, as you would expect, but it’s the mindset of the leaders that’s been in a, uh, in a conference room.
And talk about where do we want to take those risks? What are the risks worth taking? And, and because technology has caught up so fast and it’s about ready to leap frog even faster with generative AI. And if people are willing to. Think through it, understand how, uh, large language models work, understand a little bit about the risks that they’re taking, then they’re the ones that are actually going to get ahead faster.
I’ve seen some recent, um, a lot of writing about AI, and I’ll use AI as an example of latest and greatest technology. It’s not the only one, but it’s, I’ll use it as an example. Um, but how pharma companies, as an example, are starting to think through it. A lot of pharma companies, big ones, are stepping their, you know, dipping their toe in.
To try and figure out what this thing is going to do for them. A lot of them are focusing on internal. They’re trying to build the understanding of what it can do, the types of risks that it’s going to create, the type of, they’re taking what I call the incremental approach, you know, to get to that next generation of technology utilization.
However, other organizations, new ones, are going, I don’t have to worry about that. Here’s how I think this needs to work. Here’s the processes that I need to build trust. Into my large language models and my generative AI such that they know the outcome on the other side is going to be valuable and some people make it a bit of a leap of faith on that trust factor.
Others are actually, you know, trying to qualify it along the way very early and those that are doing so are achieving much greater results. So the leader in this in this day and age, it is about taking bigger risks, but it’s calculated risk. And I think in the technology and digital landscape, it’s more important that they do that faster than any other time in history, because it’s so hard to incrementally innovate in the new technology landscape at this moment.
You have to take a risk to try something completely different, and people just have difficulty in doing that. Many, uh, Walk of life, but now in business, the team bigger,
especially
Naji Gehchan: in health care. So can we go a little bit more deep in this? And really, I’d love to get your view, actually, of those breakthroughs.
And how do you see it pan out somehow in health care? So you talked, obviously, about AI. We’re trying in different spaces to touch AI in the pharma industry, obviously. Uh, you can hear about, you know, some years ago about digitalization. We’re not even there. I think, you know, from, from a healthcare, if you look from all our value chain, we’re not digital or even thinking about customer experience digitally or omni channel, et cetera.
You have health tech, tech bio, like there’s a lot of buzzwords these days. So you who are an expert in this domain and consult with executives daily about. All the stack. What is what is the future vision? How do you see us? What is the possibility? I’d love to get like a futuristic view from you, Jeff, looking forward for for biotech
Jeff French: and formal.
Sure, so I can tell you my perspective on how I think things are going to pan out over time. And obviously, this has yet to be proven, but it is my opinion, but it’s. It’s one that, um, I think there’s some natural stuff that’s just going to evolve. Let’s first maybe start on the research side of health care, because I think that’s where the biggest implication, uh, will, will be.
Um, you know, what generative AI, what these new technologies do is process large amounts of data quickly and help propose new models on how to evaluate the effectiveness of, of, of what the data is telling them. So, by default, that lives in R& D. That is the bread and butter of R& D. That’s, that’s where we, you know, the, the power of computing will generate new avenues of opportunity for the healthcare sector faster than they’ve ever seen before.
The key factor there is trust, and trust in the data, trust in the, the ability to evaluate that data. But it’s going to happen. It’s going to happen fast. Um, and those who get there and focus their energy there, Will be the ones to first create the newest opportunities in product. And I think that to me is massive.
Um, and if every pharma company, which so far I’ve seen most, focusing their energy a little bit in that space to start doing that learning, building that trust, um, they’re, they’re gonna, they’re gonna achieve big things. But probably the piece that people aren’t thinking about. Um, is and we have a lot of people talking about internal operation efficiencies and how any I can create better opportunities there, et cetera.
But it goes back to what we said or what you what you said a few minutes ago. Historically, the industry has been the laggards when it comes to customer experience. Um, the funny bit is there’s there’s lots of data that we have around, um, you know, our products, what’s used, how it’s used. Um, there’s Especially in certain markets in the world where you can actually validate that with, with real time information, um, AI can now take a look at that and start to predict, you know, trends that can start to predict behavioral shifts around a product that can start to predict, you know, what worked and what didn’t work on or what could work or couldn’t work on, um, campaign development.
What’s important information? Um, historically, you know, Uh, pharma has always been scared of getting to what we define as, uh, in the, in the commercial world as an end of one, really understanding the individual customer and understanding what makes them tick, what their needs are, because it’s in our world, it’s hard to manage, it’s hard to support, it’s hard to provide new information at an end of one.
Well, with the power of AI and the power of generative AI, that can be done. So, specific, tailored campaign message around a specific therapy need for a given physician, uh, which has a patient portfolio of X, you can start to leverage that understanding and that power much more effectively to generate real time, responsive, uh, information to requests that those physicians may have on the product.
Um, so that’s being led by the physician and we’re there 100 percent to support it. And historically that would take weeks, if not months, to answer. Right? Now it can be done in seconds. And so the construct of commercial and medical working to support the portfolio of patients that a physician has is becoming clearer and nearer to, to, to healthcare’s focus.
And it needs to, um, cause I think only collectively between the likes of, uh, the pharmaceutical companies, the healthcare insurance companies, the physicians, the hospital network, the clinicians. Does the, does the uniqueness of a given patient actually become solvable, right? In terms of appropriate care, the constructs of, um, of, um, personalized medicine, right?
And tailored therapies. It becomes a reality, but all that has to start coming together. And historically, it was always kind of shied away from. Everybody thought it’s possible, but the complexity to make it happen was too difficult. But now, because you have this, these engines that can do that in almost real time, I believe strongly that that is what’s going to lead us down to tailored therapies.
Um, And it’s all because it’s based on information that they’re able and the technologies that bringing together. It does mean contracts have to be different. Liabilities have to change. Uh, the realities of who’s doing what and ways of working has to shift in support of patients. Um, and that’s no mean feat, but the technology will enable it.
Um, and it’ll make it so it’s no longer a question of can I, it’s more of a question of should you. Right. Um, and that’s what I think it’s really an interesting dynamic that, uh, uh, the healthcare industry has to grapple with. But the technology will be there. It’s no longer a question of if.
Naji Gehchan: Well, this is a great and hopeful vision.
Actually, where you’re touching, as you said, from the development early phases to drug discovery to the amount of information we can manage there, but also touching commercially and making sure that each customer and patient get the reliable information that they need. So it’s, it’s really touching all those different.
Functions. I love that you talked about contracting, you know, contracting procedures, like through those transformations, several times you look at those shiny things, but it’s a lot of work actually on the pieces that sometimes are not shiny, which is make sure your SOPs are aligned, reshape them, rewrite them, you know, all the databases, how you, you talked a lot about trust.
So do you really trust the data you have, how you ensure it is reliable and also. putting some light on some of the biases that your data have, especially when you look on clinical trials and how medicine is
done
Jeff French: these days. And to underscore that even further to put it in kind of a technology leadership terminology, right?
If you think about the role of technology leadership, historically, it’s always been about, you know, the fundamentals of architecture and how everything plugs and plays moving forward. It’s going to be around that data quality. It’s going to be around data management. It’s around security. It’s going to be around the things that surround the technology and ensure that it’s working, not necessarily the technologies themselves.
Right? So it’s, it’s making, I was literally in a conversation this week where we were having a chat around, you know, does the future state of healthcare and pharma specifically need to invest at a completely different level on its data? And the simple answer is absolutely. And it should have done it yesterday because the, you know, it’s the old adage of technology.
Uh, you know, garbage in garbage out. If you feed your system with bad data, you get bad data out. And so it’s so important now to build that trust that you spend the time, you spend the energy to make sure your quality of processes, how you’re ingesting data, how you’re integrating with other sources, making sure that those sources have good quality, uh, data management.
Practices in place to ensure that what you’re bringing out to the customer out to the patient is of high degrees of quality as well. Absolutely crucial. And this is the new world of technology. This is the new world of digital practitioning. It’s making sure the data works because the technology that’s the things that are making it all happen.
That’s actually getting easier because it’s all becoming off the shelf. Right. And I see that just evolution continuing. Um, back in the day when I mentioned earlier when we were doing SAP, everything had to be configured. All the data had to be managed by people, right? Nowadays, it’s all in the cloud. It’s all being done for you.
You have little buttons you can push, and it changes the way entire processes work, right? And in the future, those buttons won’t need to be pushed because it’ll be automated in some way, shape or form based upon predictive artificial intelligence. These are the things that will just make sense.
Automatically happen. It’s about how well the data is, how well those triggers to automate are actually curated and care and validated by the data itself. So just new roles and people in leadership positions have to understand this is coming. So skill sets and capabilities and training around this to to build this.
This new ecosystem
Naji Gehchan: is going to be crucial. So Jeff, one of the questions I frequently get from leaders and leading those transformations, right, whether commercial or R& D, probably more in commercial, because I think in R& D, we’re used to invest and wait longer to get a return on our investments, right? I feel in commercial, there’s always this question like, yeah, okay, you did this digital transformation.
Where is there a return, right? And you talked about, uh, in the beginning that you’re a fan of, uh, return on objectives. So how do you think about this? Because what you’re sharing is really deep investments in things that probably we won’t see in three months as a result, but more down the line in the customer experiences and lifetime value of, uh, of customer experiences.
So how do you help execs? Think about our I and their time frame specifically in this high tech transformation. We’re living.
Jeff French: Yeah, it’s um, it’s an interesting one because, um, obviously everybody wants to return faster, right? They want that validation. They want the ability to to confirm that their investment is worth everybody doing within the organization and scaling it quickly to be able to maximize.
And I think this is where a new rule. A new thought process goes a little bit to what I mentioned early on about um, kind of wiping the slate clean and starting from scratch. There, there needs to be an expectation in leadership. When you start to go down these paths, there’s different ways that you can do it.
Um, you can actually now basically start anew. You can, you know, carve off a country, carve off a business line, carve off different functions, start anew, look for that business value quickly, stand up those new processes, get that ROI or ROI, return on objective done and defined quicker. Um, it is doable.
It’s more expensive, typically, to, to, to do that kind of an approach, um, in the short term. But it’s it actually validates your your opportunity faster versus the other way is people incrementally innovate. They incrementally try new things, but they’re always then comparing that with what they already do.
Right. And that’s where people have tendency to get stuck in this new world because sometimes. Um, the values clear, right? Case in point. You can now use generative AI to create content, right? So there’s a mechanism by which you can leverage data to say, Hey, I need a new piece of content that’s going to go out on this email and I need an email created for this prompt and I need it to say X, Y or Z.
That can be done in seconds. Whereas historically, that would take you weeks, right, for something like that to be produced. Um, because you got to validate the market research, you got to validate the data behind it, the customer segments, you got to do all that stuff. But with generative AI, it takes seconds.
Right now, the question is, do you incrementally roll that into play within your business or do you start and for a whole new business and try, try a new and I would argue what back to the risk discussions. Most leaders have tendency to say, well, I don’t want to upset anybody in my organization and basically all that work that they historically have done or what they’re used to.
It’ll be easier if we increment within this culture of our organization. But those that are on the edge who try things differently, they start anew, they build from scratch, they try something completely different, validate it, and get it, say, yep, they pilot, I know I hate that word, but the reality is they try it, they focus it, they look for the result, did I get it, yes, okay, scale, right, and it’s, it’s about Constantly measuring, right?
It’s about making sure that whether you’re incrementally doing it or whether you’re doing it anew, you’re constantly measuring and looking for that value driver constantly. Just know when you incrementally do it, it’ll take you longer to get there, right? But know that up front and leaders have to agree with their other leadership that that’s the path we’re going to take.
Because that’s the, maybe the, perhaps the way that company wants to take it versus others who might be more aggressive, go, we’re going to do it this way. But once we do it, I need your agreement. We’re going to scale fast. Right. So it is an element of constantly measuring. I think there’s a new world of measurement.
I’m going to sidetrack for two seconds here, Nanji, because I think it’s important. You’ve got the practical side of speed and efficiency, right, which is easy to measure, right? How fast do things get done? Very easy to measure, right? What’s difficult to measure is quality of delivery. Right. You know what we call effectiveness.
Did it work? Did it change behavior? Did it provide the level of education that was needed to inform that, uh, let’s say physician on the possibility of, of, of a treat of a new treatment? I, um, paradigm for a different patient type. Did it actually change behavior? That’s the stuff that’s a little more more difficult to manage, but technology and the use of behavioral science with technology is starting to showcase the power of knowing whether or not that’s working.
Faster, and I think you’ll find that with some of the latest trends in this space, whether it’s some sort of, um, kind of CX measure that a lot of organizations are now going to, um. That is one. It kind of near term mechanism that’s being created for people comfortable and to build trust around customer experience measurement.
Um, and they should everybody needs to get on that. Um, because you got to get comfortable with it. If you look at what’s happening in our personal lives with our phones with, um, our online shopping experiences that’s happening. All the time in the background, people are constantly evaluating how long it took you to hover over something before you bought it, right?
Or how long, how many different car websites did you go to before you pick the one that you landed on and stayed there the longest, right? Because you were interested in something, or you went to the configurator to validate something. All that trend, that journey. It’s being measured and being behaviorally and this is the kind of stuff that we have to start getting comfortable with in health care to say, Hey, look, when a, when an individual clearly is not happy with their treatment, they’re going on this path, right?
What is that telling us about that individual or that group of individuals for that matter about what’s maybe going on in their lives? Um, and being able to infer that to help define better options and to optimize their treatment. It’s an example. So I firmly believe it’s, um, it’s a combination of those two kind of how do you want to approach return on investment?
Is it a quick way? Is it a slow way? And then on top of that, the mechanism we use. To determine value is shifting considerably. You have the old tried and true finance, the old tried and true efficiency. And then it’s about this new world of customer experience. And is that generating a shift in behavior?
And that’s the piece that I think is the new edge where everybody should be going to. For sure. And
Naji Gehchan: it gives a lot of hope for, as you said, patients taking in charge and, you know, and talking about this. As consumers of non health and health, it’s sometimes mind puzzling how much you can influence things that are not related to health, where with this transformation, it’s giving more the power back to patients who are making, who should be part of the decision of how they are taken charge.
Jeff French: Absolutely. And I think there’s some, there’s the, if I, if I even cast forward beyond kind of where we are at the moment within this space, I firmly believe that technology companies, uh, the apples of the world, the Samsung’s of the world, they’re going to have to start helping. People with managing their preferences, managing their, um, the stuff that helps them on their day to day basis, whether it be with their health or with their family or with their routines and administrative work that they have to do, um, it’s all going to be automated moving forward.
Um, and so the question is, how do you instruct your technologies that you interact with to help manage that for you? Right. So it’s not to your point. So it’s not giving you false positives or it’s not giving you information that you don’t want to see. Um, I had a great opportunity recently where I was with a, uh, an individual or a group of individuals and we were talking about the future of, uh, of technologies like Alexa combining with, um.
Generative AI, right? So we think of, you know, audio, uh, search and what that might mean for for the future. It’s something as simple as, you know, you’re sitting at a dinner table with the family and you’re talking about your next vacation. You want to go on and then all of a sudden, you know, the one of the one of the, let’s say the parent decides, hey, um, Alexa or whoever.
Um, we just had this conversation. Give me some options. Tell me what, tell me what my options are for that kind of a holiday. The whole time it was listening, the whole time it was, it was understanding that family’s conversation about where they wanted to go, what type of holiday they appreciated. And then on top of that, it’s got all that history, right?
Of understanding what they’ve done historically, what they’ve purchased, where they’ve gone, et cetera. And all of a sudden you can propose three, four or five options about what might be doable within a price range or within a subset of prompts that the, that the family gives it. And my whole point there is, yeah.
You have to tell Alexa that you want that, right? And that you want the, you can’t just assume that it’s going to happen. And this gets into some of the data privacy issues around the world at the moment in security. People have to take control of their health and people have to take control of what they want these technologies to do.
Technology companies have to allow that to happen.
Naji Gehchan: So Jeff, now I want to give you a word and I’d love, uh, what first comes to your mind. The first one is
Jeff French: leadership.
Community is the first word that comes to my mind when I think of leadership. Um, and that’s because to move anything in this, in this business and in healthcare, it’s a community of leaders that make things happen, not just one person. And they all have to cut back to the common agenda, common objectives.
Um, and I, you know, and my previous bosses will even probably hear this echo, um, in their ears right now, if they’re listening, because that is the thing that I strive to focus on the most is creating that sense of community across my peer group. As well as those that, you know, provide the, the, uh, the capability that we’re trying to develop and transform with.
Um, because it takes a group to move a mountain, right? And we have a lot of mountains to move.
Naji Gehchan: What about innovation?
Jeff French: Innovation is, um,
opportunity is the 1st word that popped into my head, but at the same time, it’s, it’s also about focusing on innovation and opportunities that make sense. There’s a lot of playing going on and a lot of people trying things because they can, um, I always felt like opportunistic innovation is not one that’s going to create value for anybody.
Innovation for purpose and intent to change things, we need to focus more around. Um. Because a lot of what we do is people are trying to find the next big, you know, shiny object that’s actually not adding any value to people’s lives. And I think in our sector, true innovation will occur with purpose, will, will occur with a purpose.
And I was, you know, my, my time at V taught me that it’s, um, true, true purpose led innovation achieves amazing things. Um, those that it’s opportunistic, just basically you invest in it, goes into a cupboard, sits in a desk drawer, doesn’t really ever come out again. Um, but the stuff that really tries to make a difference in people’s lives and that that’s, that’s different and that’s normally a, a community of leaders.
That make that happen. How does equity? Ooh, good one. Um, inequity is what I first think about it. It’s the first thing that comes to my mind. I do think we have a lot of work to do in this space. Um, lots of innovations have occurred a lot of that and lots of great innovation, even in global health markets.
Where, where the help is needed, uh, great, great things have happened there, but I would argue not great, not good enough. Um, the, the, the inequity continues. Um, and I, and I think that’s in this day and age, when you have therapies and medicines and products and services and processes, where it’s all about trying to stop it, you know, from for diseases to get out of control.
I mean, cobit proved we can stop things. Um, and yes, there are bits of it that are still continuing that have evolved, et cetera, but we all don’t have the confidence that it can be done. I think there’s. Work to be done to make sure that, and I think it would prove that there’s any quality inequity. Sorry in, in getting that medicine and those treatments out to the places where it’s needed the most.
Um, so I guess, yeah, don’t mean to put a downer on that, but I think there’s more work to be done. There’s more thought leadership around how to do it. That needs to be put in play. Um, and how technology can, can fix some of it. I think there’s a lot of opportunity there too. Um, yeah, probably not the right that, the answer that, that, you know, not the high, the, uh, positive answer you wanted to hear, but it’s definitely how I feel about it.
Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread love in organizations.
Jeff French: Yeah. I think there’s, it goes back to my community principle, I think with a clear common purpose. People can move mountains, like I said earlier, and if people put their personal ambitions aside. And start thinking about the group ambitions and the community ambitions,
the construct of spreading love within an organization will rise. And I’ve seen it and in organizations where the passion, the commitment, the focus on the outcome is what’s really driving them and the focus to resolve personal strife, uh, through, uh, particular issues and disease areas. When people focus on that, it, it, it works and everybody’s.
You know, feeling like they’ve accomplished something in their in their life, and I’ve been fortunate to be part of one of one of those. And now I want to continue that. So spreading, spreading the opportunity and the two on how to go about championing, you know, these, the next generation of technology to solve these kinds of problems and help people think about this community spirit and be as one to drive and solve problems.
Yeah, it’s a great, it’s a great feeling.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, Jeff, for healthcare leaders around the world?
Jeff French: Yeah, I’d ask a lot of them to think differently about technology and digital. Don’t think about it as an incremental thing that’s going to help your existing core business. Think about it how it can change your business holistically.
Um, think about how, what plans you’re putting in place to, to do exactly that. Um, you’ll save money. You know, initially, maybe you may have to invest to do that, but over time, you know, process costs should reduce. I mean, that’s what these technologies are bringing to bear for. Um, and so there’s an element of, you know, ensuring that these opportunities are on the agenda, you know, that it’s a common agenda that the leadership are always focusing in this space.
And it’s not, how do I create, you know, what everybody else is doing. It’s how I’m doing it different than everybody else. Um, cause I think there’s, there’s huge opportunity there for people to think differently in the healthcare space versus just be one of the same. Well, thank you so much,
Naji Gehchan: Jeff, for being with me today.
Jeff French: Thanks, Naji. It was an absolute pleasure. Really, really appreciate this. And, um, yeah, let’s, let’s keep spreading the love cause this is, this is a fantastic podcast. I really enjoy it. And, um, and I think we’re going to make a big difference.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Jeff French first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Saloni Behl an accomplished leader with over 16 years of experience in building high-impact strategies to grow companies and make them more efficient and effective in bringing transformative medications to patients. Over the last 10 years, Saloni has been in Otsuka Pharmaceuticals and has played a critical role in helping the company grow its portfolio within Neuroscience and Nephrology. She has undertaken leadership roles in New Product Planning, Business Development Strategy, and most recently R&D. Saloni believes in leading teams by observing, understanding and empowering. Her childhood experiences have taught her to see things other might miss, to bounce back from challenges, and truly value the people she works with. She is passionate about making a real difference in brain health.
Saloni, it is such a pleasure to have you with me today!
Saloni Behl: Well, thank you for having me here. And I’m also very excited and I feel privileged to be here.
Naji Gehchan: Can you first share with us your personal story? From biomedical engineering to leading R&D in pharma, what’s in between the lines of your inspiring journey?
Saloni Behl: So actually it starts way before biomedical engineering. Um, I. Uh, my childhood was spent in in Mumbai, India, and I had a little bit of a rough upbringing where I was abused.
I was exposed to a household where there was a lot of trauma. My father was, was an addict and he was pretty much addicted to, uh, anything, whether it’s tobacco or alcohol or, um, you know, gambling or, um, abusing my mother. Um, and growing up in that sort of a household, uh, I very early on became very acutely observant of what was happening in the world around me.
Um, and I went through a lot of my childhood as almost an observer of life, very passive, average student, um, doing the bare minimum needed to get by. Um, I was very, thankful and very lucky that my mother, um, garnered the courage to eventually get out of the marriage and, um, you know, start to rebuild life.
And within a couple of years, she met a wonderful human being who, um, she got married to and, um, we moved to the U S. Um, with with our with our family. Um, but as my as my life progressed and childhood progressed, um, uh, I continue to stay while while life was rebuilding. I would say around me. I continue to be more of this acute observer of life.
Um, and just when things were, you know, starting to rebuild. I, um, I remember I was in a classroom in my in a physics class. In high school and, um, my, my left eye protruded about two inches out of its socket. And, um, basically three years, many misdiagnoses and many, uh, hospital visits later. Um, I sat in Mayo Clinic and was told that I was at risk of losing my eyesight because I had, um, basically a tennis ball sized tumor pressing against my optic nerve.
And, um, for me, that was probably a turning point in life and a big turning point, um, as they say, sometimes a crucible, um, where essentially I realized that, um, you know, it was time to not be an observer of life, but actually be an active participant and start to shape life, um, you know, in a way that you can actually drive change.
And for me, that change was, was healthcare at that time. So, um, for me, a lot of my childhood has shaped honestly my, my leadership journey. Because even today, um, you know, I lead by obs. I, I lead by observing and then by understanding and being more resilient. Being resilient through challenges. And a lot of that has come from, from my childhood.
But as you know. But, you know, post that, I think my life is what you mentioned, where, you know, I decided to study biomedical engineering, um, and since then I’ve been on the health care bandwagon trying to drive change wherever, wherever, um, wherever possible and, and never looking back, essentially. Oh,
Naji Gehchan: Saroni, thank you so much for sharing this part of your, your story.
How you framed it from acute observer of life to an active participant and driving change and you’re certainly are driving change and bringing, I know you brought recently drugs also to patients and this is, this is why we do what we do and you’re certainly doing it every day with your teams. So I want to start with, you said, observing, understanding, empowering.
This is kind of your leadership. and how you lead teams. And it certainly comes from your past experiences. Can you share a little bit more about this, about your leadership signature, about how you drive your teams towards the purpose of making life better for patients?
Saloni Behl: Yeah. I mean, I think, um, you know, as I mentioned, it’s a good question.
I mean, as I mentioned, a big part of my leadership is observing, understanding, and empowering people the way I, the way I, um, the way I Utilize that in my day to day is, um, I’m very acutely observant of if there, for example, there are inequities in the workplace. If people are being mistreated in the workplace, if their voices that are not being heard in the workplace, if people are not, if the workplace is not being adequately represented with certain voices and diverse voices, um, so I use that sort of to my advantage, um, because I In meetings, I will, you know, try to make people speak up who, for example, are not getting a chance to speak up.
We’ll try to be as inclusive as possible when we’re discussing strategy, for example, for a product or for the company. Um, that’s how I sort of apply. My observational skills that, um, you know, I think have shaped my leadership and then in terms of, you know, trying to empower people. It’s linked to that because, um, if you’re somebody who sees a lot, then it’s it’s your job to act.
And, and, um, and do something about it. So, um, I do wherever wherever possible. I make sure that, um, that that individuals, whether they’re on my team or individuals I mentor, which there are quite a few within my company, um, are empowered to speak up empowered to act and and not just observe.
Naji Gehchan: You know, several times I was asked when we say spread love, if love is an acronym for something. And it’s, uh, it’s interesting two of the words you have. So at some point I was, you know, reflecting on it, it’s listen, observe value and empower. So we, we certainly do align on, on how leadership should be. And you’ve done, you’ve been a leader in different functions, uh, within, uh, within your company.
Uh, from commercial product planning to now leading RNC cross functionally, uh, on, on one of the assets. Uh, what are your biggest learning? As you have moved function and led different capabilities, different, uh, different people. Also, uh, is there, was there a common thread and all those roles from leadership perspective that you had?
Saloni Behl: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the, I think the common thread for me is. Being able to elevate voices across the organization and elevate opinions, elevate insights across the organization, which I think whether you’re a leader in commercial or a leader in R and D or your leader in business development strategy, um, to develop effective strategies, no matter where you sit in the company, you need to bring the right people to the table, the right voices to the table, make sure you have, you know, discussions and elevate risks, elevate, um, You know, elevate roadmaps that you need to put together.
So I think that’s been a skill that I’ve had, which is mobilizing teams in an effective, effective and efficient manner towards driving milestones and decisions. And so wherever I sit, um, you know, it’s It really doesn’t matter and that’s what sort of helped me move around, I would say, and drive change.
Naji Gehchan: So your passion is in neuroscience, and these days it became, I should say it has always been, but it feels like these days it’s really an exciting field. Like we’re seeing so many advances from gene therapy to Alzheimer’s, everything’s happening in those fields. So it’s certainly an exciting, um, time to, uh, be passionate about neuroscience and most importantly for the patients, right.
And in this, uh, suffering from neuroscience diseases, I’d love to get your view and what is most exciting for you, uh, in the future of this therapeutic area.
Saloni Behl: Yeah. I mean, that’s a great, that’s a great question. And there’s so much exciting. There’s so much exciting work happening. So it’s, it’s hard to pinpoint one thing, but I would say, um, within neuropsychiatry, let’s say as a category, the, the two areas I’m most excited about is, um, one digital therapies that are, um, actively being developed, um, in the space to treat a lot of, um, mental illnesses.
And then second, um, I’m seeing a lot of, uh, very, very robust evidence come out in from psychedelic based therapies, actually, um, in the neuropsychiatric space where you’re looking at, um, you’re seeing some really interesting phase two and phase three data emerge that shows that these medications could potentially treat the brain in a very different way than traditional therapies.
So I’m, I’m excited about that. I would say I’m very excited about the digital therapy space as mentioned. Um, also because of, um, the number of patients this could potentially access. Coming from a country that’s developing and a lot of people don’t have access to therapists or physicians there in places that are far away from doctors offices.
Um, I think if one, but I think if you’re able to get digital tools to those places and, you know, somebody can get. Get treated by an app that could be transformative and imagine the number of patients who could get care that don’t currently get it. So I think that’s the aspect of digital therapies that gets me very, very excited.
And, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s, there’s challenges to navigate across all of this, but it just, I feel hopeful.
Naji Gehchan: That’s why we’re here, right? Like, making sure that we overcome those challenges. And I know you’re doing it. On this, you, you talked about access. and inequity in access. You talked about where you come from.
Um, I also, uh, come from a country that has challenges where, where I was born through access. So how do you think about health inequities or health equity globally as a healthcare leader these days?
Saloni Behl: That’s a that’s a good that’s a good. That’s a great question. Um, globally. Yeah, I mean, I think there’s more inequity than equity, to be honest, and a lot of a lot of the globe.
So, um, I, I think it’s, yeah, I mean,
think about this a little bit.
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think it’s health and equity is Related to related inequities and so many different arenas, right? Like, uh, income, inequ, inequity, um, you know, uh, d uh, just like the access to, like hygiene for example. Like there’s inequities in so many different arenas across different countries, and I feel like the countries that are really struggling in, um, education, in hygiene in.
Um, uh, you know, income inequalities. I think they’re having to struggle with a lot more health. Health and equity just goes hand in hand with that. So, um, my Yeah, I thought that is just that it’s so it’s so linked to what’s happening, you know, and it’s a big question.
Naji Gehchan: I, I definitely agree with you. You know, I think of it and we both when you are currently a student at MIT, but it’s certainly the system dynamic, right?
As you said, like, it’s so interlinked those there is. systemic inequities built in, in our societies, right? From, as you said, uh, information, education, like it starts very early on to unfortunately health equity. Um, so, so it’s certainly interlinked and we, we have, uh, we, we have this responsibility as healthcare leaders to look at it, think about it and, and make a change.
Saloni Behl: And think about it to your point holistically at a systemic level because it’s so linked. Yeah. Yeah.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. So I’m going to move now to a section where I’m going to give you a word and I would love your reaction to it. The first one is leadership.
Saloni Behl: Responsibility. Um,
Can you share more about it? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, um, as you as you grow into leadership roles or as you have a leadership position, I think your responsibility increases to be, you know, responsible to give back. You’re responsible to, um, to do more. You’re responsible to empower people around you to also grow as leaders.
So I think with leadership, with good leadership comes responsibility. Responsibility to contribute to give back, um, in whatever organization you’re in, whatever role you’re in. Um, and and even outside, um, the organization to the community and, um, and to society
diversity, um, inclusivity. And the reason I put those together is I don’t think diversity by itself is enough when you have, for example, a diverse workforce. What’s the point if you can’t build an inclusive environment where the diversity can actually speak up? So diversity without inclusivity is, to me, um, not enough.
Uh, yeah. What about brain health? the most complicated, uh, problem that we’re, we’re sitting on today. So brains, um, you know, unlike a lot of other parts of the body, the brains, I believe truly believe are the most complicated machines on this planet. So, um, brain health. by default is, you know, trying to solve problems, um, to fix parts of the most complicated machine on this planet.
Uh, so complex.
Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread love and organizations
Saloni Behl: necessary. This, this, uh, organizations can’t operate without love, without empathy, without, um, understanding, um, So I think that’s just the core of the DNA, the blood of organization that keeps organizations going, um, even in this, this, this, the world of AI and generative AI, um, love is what keeps us.
I love that.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, certainly for health care leaders across the world?
Saloni Behl: I would say that what, like, I think, you know, just that I think people should just health care leaders across the world should just remember that, um, health care will and always be some of the most pressing need, um, globally. And, um, it’s really important, um, as health care leaders of tomorrow and today, that That leaders work together with each other to to try to solve some of the needs.
Um, it’s time to not work in silos. It’s time to work as a community to towards figuring out some of the most solutions towards some of the most pressing problems that the world faces in health care.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, you’re such an inspiration for many. And I really thank you for your time, your generosity and your vulnerability being with me today on this podcast.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Saloni Behl first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Shawn Nason, CEO of OFFOR Health, a company that reimagines outdated healthcare models to accelerate access to care for those who are under-served and under-resourced. With over 15 years of experience in creating and transforming experience ecosystems, Shawn is passionate about reimagining how people interact with health and wellness services and products. As a former Disney Imagineer, Chief Innovation Officer, and founder of the Disruptor League, Shawn has a proven track record of leading and executing innovative projects that generate significant revenue, customer loyalty, and social impact. Shawn is also an author, speaker, podcast host, and neurodiversity advocate.
Shawn, It is such a pleasure to have you with me today!
Shawn Nason: It’s great to be here and thank you for having me Naji. Um, it’s an honor to be on your podcast. Thank you.
Naji Gehchan: Can you first share with us your personal story? From Disney to healthcare, what’s in between the lines of your inspiring journey of social impact?
Shawn Nason: It even starts before Disney, Nadja. I, um, I was a professional musician who, um, was a pastor. And in 2005, after leaving pastoring full time, my wife and I, um, lived in Orlando, Florida. My wife worked for one of the big hospital systems there.
And I didn’t know what I was going to do. And so, all of a sudden, We had this moment of what’s next. And my wife looked at me and said, Hey, why don’t you go to work for Disney? And I said, great. And we’ve always been a Disney family. I said, great, let me go apply. I said, there’s only one condition. I don’t want to do entertainment.
Like I was done doing entertainment stuff. And so I went and applied and got hired. Long story short, stayed at the company almost seven years, had many different roles, um, but my last role, um, and my longest role there was with Walt Disney Imagineering, um, and that’s where I really, um, Learned and probably changed my life forever around what experience could be like for guests, for customers, for cast members, or associates, employees.
Um, and, and that, when that journey was time to end, came to, time to end, uh, I was recruited into healthcare. I had been exposed to a book of If Disney Ran Your Hospital, and some of that program, and helped bring that to life, and so I was recruited into healthcare by Humana, and that started my journey into healthcare, so three years at Humana.
Then I went to be a chief innovation officer at a university to stand up a health care consulting group at Xavier University, um, and then I started my own company called Mofi, M O F I dot C O, and it’s an experienced design group, and uh, Mofi still exists today. Um, we do ton in the experiential space, we do ton in strategy and innovation, um, for organizations.
We’re a boutique consulting firm. Um, and then earlier this year I had the opportunity to step in and be interim CEO for Offer Health. Um, I was there for eight months and left there, um, here in the middle of September. Um, and now looking for what’s next for me and what the universe has for me. Well, thanks for sharing,
Naji Gehchan: Sean, your, your journey.
I’m intrigued about how you’ve been using your learning, as you said, which was a transformational experience in Disney, Imagineer, to now solving such a crucial issue in healthcare, access to care. Can you share with us a little bit your learnings and how you’re applying them into
Shawn Nason: the healthcare world?
Yeah, I will tell you, um, it’s, uh, it’s so simple, but yet so bizarre for people and, and I will, I’ll wrap it up in this saying, and the saying is, if you get the human experience right, you will get the numbers you need, and so what that means, and, and how even that translates into bringing access to care and rule, um, Areas, um, or just in general, um, because we know it’s not just about rural areas.
It’s about access to care in general, across our, our country is treat people humane and they will do what you need them to do. And so my experience as a leader has been build amazing teams, treat them as humans, and then you can go conquer the big problems. And so. Even at All4Health, that’s what we were doing there when it came to providing access to care for pediatric children on Medicaid.
My journey at Humana was around bringing access to care to to those in the state of Mississippi, as well as in the state or in the city of San Antonio. So I have a passion for that. I have a passion for the underserved under resourced communities. And the way you’re successful in that is just start treating people humane.
Um, it’s not an easy answer anymore. And I think we’ve tried to boil the ocean in healthcare. Let’s just take it one bit at a time.
John, I love this. And
Naji Gehchan: we always hear how much healthcare is broken as a system in the U. S. We can also talk about healthcare inequities here in the U. S., but also globally. And I love that you’re making good. really focused on treating patients or even people, right? In a humane way. Can you give us concrete examples?
Because I know you impacted local communities and you gave two of those communities in the past work. How specifically would you do this? Is it through the patient plans? How do you do it with health care providers with systems? I’m intrigued if you have a couple of stories you can share with us on specific impacts we can do
Shawn Nason: as leaders in health care.
Yeah, I’ll share. Um, the most common one and, um, the, the most recent one for me because I think it really is an impact, um, uh, we at Mophie have the honor of partnering with the former CEO and president of Walmart Health and Wellness, Sean Slavinski is his name. And. We were brought in to help design the experience and launch what today is known as Walmart Health.
And that’s their clinics that are attached to many of their stores in particularly, um, in Georgia and Florida. I think this year alone, they’re, they’re opening their 23rd in Florida. And we were, we were honored. to be able to be there for the first opening and be a part of what that journey looked like for the organization.
So that was a disruptive model when it was brought to market because we did it on a cash base only. So we didn’t look to the payers We didn’t look to the big insurers to come in and partner with us when we were there. And it actually kind of freaked people out at first because they’re like, there’s no way that, that people are going to pay this type of money.
Well, the thing of it is, is we actually made the access to care affordable, um, so people could, could get it. And so prime example, when we launched, you could get a behavioral health, um, session. A counselor for a dollar a minute. So you could have an hour session for $60 or you could go see your dentist ’cause there were dental in those clinics and you could get an X-ray and a cleaning for $25 a visit.
And surprisingly enough, I remember the first time a mother came with her four children to get this done and had a little bit more work done. But for the five of them in the dental clinic spent 200, which if she had to pay through insurance and co pays, it would probably even been more than 200. Um, and so that’s a prime example of find a niche, find an area, again, don’t try to boil the ocean.
I’ll go back to the story at, you know, Offer Health and what they were accomplishing there. They found a niche in pediatric dentistry for Medicaid and went after that and are making an impact there. There are many organizations Doing that today. I’ve become familiar very recently with an organization here in Ohio who does nothing but serve the LGBTQI plus community.
Um, and they’ve made an impact with 21 or 22, um, particular clinics here in the state. They’re providing access to underserved, under resourced communities. Um, in a very impactful way, and that’s going to ultimately change the landscape of health care. Those are
Naji Gehchan: great examples, and I love it because several times we talk a lot about doing big things, but actually, as we said, if we take a small piece of the problem and really act and work on it and solve it.
Well, the impact is going to be broader at some point. Can you, when I’m hearing you, I’m hearing this passion towards underserved other resource communities really focus on access. And with access, you talked about price and the cost of access. When you think of it from a broader lens, right? We can talk about preventive medicine.
We can talk about educational, um, medicine. What are the key challenges? Because I know you’re passionate about this experience. We live as humans throughout our health and wellness. Are there other verticals, if I want to call them, or other parts of a patient journey that you think is really disrupted and you want to
fix
Shawn Nason: it?
Well, um, I, I had the honor on the podcast that I host, the Combustion Chronicles, I had Dr. Adrienne Boise, former Chief Experience Officer from Cleveland Clinic, and now the Chief Medical Officer at Qualtrics, and I remember doing the episode, having a conversation just like you and I are, and she started talking about, let’s not talk about the human experience anymore, but let’s talk about the humane experience, and for Oh, Several days I thought on that, and I thought, well, really, what’s the difference?
And then it kind of hit me. You can have a human experience that’s not humane. Um, listen, I went through April 15th, 2022, I was diagnosed with stage 3 colon cancer. I went through some experiences over that whole year, 12 rounds of chemo, that I would not necessarily call humane experiences. Because… My insurance company tried to drop me.
Um, you know, bedside manners by all were not the best. And sometimes I felt like a number during my journey. So where I think things need to be disrupted in healthcare today is two things. We need to get out of a system that is built for paying claims. Um, and that’s what our system is today. How do we get claims paid?
How do we get the insurance through that? The second one is. Let’s be humane again. Let’s make people feel, not just human, but respected, no matter their race, their gender, their sexual preference, whatever disease they’re going through. I mean, a prominent thing that bugs the shit out of me, I’m just gonna say it, is we still use the terminology chronic conditions.
You know, that’s not humane, in my opinion. People that, you know, you know, people and patients that are identified with being told, Oh, you have multiple chronic conditions. That doesn’t always feel good, you know? Um, one of the things that kind of bugged me on my cancer journey that I, uh, I’m having to, is they use this terminology called NED.
And I heard someone say to me once, Oh, I’m NED. And I’m like. Who’s Ned? And it’s the terminology, no evidence of disease. So they don’t tell you you’re in remission anymore because they don’t tell you you’re in remission for five years. And I know you know some of this where you work and what you do, but I I’m Ned.
So I have no evidence of disease that doesn’t always feel humane, but it’s a human experience. That’s where I want to get disruptive.
Naji Gehchan: Thanks. Thank you so much, Sean, for sharing this. This is really profound what you’re saying. And definitely on several pieces of those journeys we live as humans, we’re unfortunately, we lose humanity and being humane and thinking of it more holistically than just what we’re treating. Um, so I want to go into your leadership beliefs and I think you’re touching some of them where since the beginning, like how you build, uh, teams within the companies you work for to help others build this humane experience in healthcare and medicine.
Um, your heart centered. As I’ve seen executive, this is how you, uh, you identify, um, and really into this mission to human, uh, humanize the word. Can you share more about your personal vision and how you apply it daily and how you apply that daily with your teams and your organizations?
Shawn Nason: Yeah, so, um, this is real easy for me.
Um, I told you I used to be a pastor and so I tell people I have my basic three point sermon when it comes to leadership. Um, and it’s all based, let me preface it, it’s all based in four core principles or values that are what I would consider my heart sets. Um, and we wrote a book about this called Kiss Your Dragons in 2020.
Um, and mine are Honesty, Integrity, Transparency, and Loyalty. So knowing that, that that’s the core of who I am as a leader, I tell leaders, there’s three things you need to do to be amazing leaders. One is be transparent. Don’t hide stuff from your teams, from your organizations or anything. Be transparent, let them know and let them see the human side of you, right?
The second one is This concept of build radical relationships. So build relationships with your organization, your teams, that are diversified, have different thoughts, have healthy tension and healthy conversations in them. Because it’s going to make everyone better at the end. And the third one, Which is so simple, but blows me away is I don’t see how you cannot be a leader and not love people, but yet we continually promote people into roles that don’t want to deal with people.
And so how can you be a leader?
Pretty simple to me.
Naji Gehchan: Simple, but yet extremely complex, it seems. And as you said, we promote and it’s, it’s interesting. I would not going to go into like naming some of those that are considered or like that have a lot of airtime on media who are considered successful leaders these days, and actually really modeling quite the opposite of, of love to, to humanity, even.
Yeah. So it’s certainly. Unfortunate when I, when I see these pieces, um, when you shared your 4 values, the 4th one was loyalty. I’m intrigued by this one, you know, especially. In business life, there’s a lot of discussion, like, are we loyal as a company? Loyal? Are we loyal as people to who should we be loyal?
Can you be loyal to a big corporation? Like there’s a lot about loyalty. So I was very intrigued when you said loyal as a value. And how do you deal with this? You know, joining a company, leaving a company with colleagues.
Shawn Nason: What is your thinking process around this? Yeah, so it’s one. It’s one that Many people that are very close to me, um, and in my very close circle would say it’s to a fault for me.
Um, many times, companies are not loyal to you. Um, that, it’s not going to happen in a company. Now, I hope for those that have worked for me and worked for me at Mophie, know that I’m very loyal to them and have done everything I could, um, to provide the best for them. When I think of loyalty, I think of relationships and it goes back to that building radical relationships.
Um, just recently with my experience, um, I have a team of executives that are very loyal to me that have said, Sean, wherever you go next, we want to go with you because I respected them. I treated them like human people. Humane, not looking down on them, giving them the space, and listen, I’m going to say this, and I probably should have said this earlier with the loyalty piece, and with my three point sermon as well, your job as leaders is not to be in the day to day, your job as leaders is to remove barriers and obstacles so your team and your organization can do what they need to do.
So when I sit in the CEO role, my job is to remove barriers and obstacles for the people that are closest to our customers, to our patients, to whoever it might be. Because the reality of this is C suites and executive leaders are nothing but overhead costs. And so get out of your ego, get out of your own way, and be there for the people that are serving your customers, your patients, whoever it might be.
I
Naji Gehchan: want now to move to another section where I will give you a word. And I want your reaction to it. So the first word is leadership.
Shawn Nason: You have to live it.
Health equity. I’m boggled that we don’t have it right now in our country. Kiss your dragons. Chase your fears and hit them, um, straight on.
Naji Gehchan: I want a little bit more about this. You have a book named like this, so I want my, you know, my audience to know more
Shawn Nason: about it too. Yeah, so. The whole concept of Kiss Your Dragons, if you’ve ever seen, if you have kids, or if you don’t, because some of us watched cartoons before we had children, there’s a movie series out there called How to Train Your Dragons.
Um, and the concept of the, the, the young boy and the dragon who he was taught, um, to fear dragons from the very beginning and the dragons were bad. So a fear of them. But when he got to know Toothless, he, he changed his whole society and that’s what was hard. Hiccup. Which is the young boy’s name. He faced his fear head on.
So much so that he almost lost his relationship with his father. But through that, something they feared, dragons, ended up changing their society. Let’s talk about it happening today. People are fearing AI, right? But it’s ultimately going to change. I tell people in healthcare, don’t fear it. Let’s figure out how to use this concept of high tech and high touch.
How do we use that technology to take the administrative burdens, the BS off people’s plates so people can go back to care for people. Don’t fear it. So, that’s leaning in and kissing your dragon.
Naji Gehchan: I love it and it resonates so much with me. The last one is spread love and
Shawn Nason: organizations. Yeah. Um, again, I don’t understand how you can be a leader and not love people. I love to be around my teams. I love a CEO. I love to walk the floors or be on the calls or be in the field with the teams. Um, so, so I can just love on them. So that’s what, it’s very hard for me. Um, it’s just very hard for me to understand how you can’t spread love in an organization.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, Shawn, for healthcare leaders around the world.
Shawn Nason: Don’t be scared to help change the system. So lean in and kiss your dragons.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much again for being with me today!
Shawn Nason: Awesome. Thanks. It’s great to be here.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Shawn Nason first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Rehan Ahmed, an ophthalmologist passionate about improving eye care. Rehan has extensive experience in the patient eye care journey, from direct medical and surgical patient care, to retail optometric settings, medical OD/MD practice environments, drug development, and novel diagnostic and treatment modalities. His expertise is bridging strategic gaps between patient care, providers, payors, and regulatory agencies. Rehan is a practicing ophthalmologist, Medical Director in Global Clinical Development and Operations at Santen Pharmaceutical, founder of Texas Eye and Vision Associates, and Chief Medical Officer at Blink, a startup in remote ocular healthcare; he also advises multiple med-tech startups. Rehan received his MD degree from Vanderbilt University School of Medicine. He completed his internship at the University of Texas, residency in ophthalmology at Baylor College of Medicine, and MBA from MIT Sloan School of Management.
Rehan, It is a pleasure to see you again and have you with me today!
Rehan Ahmed: Naji, I’m happy to be here.
Naji Gehchan: Can you first share with us more about your personal story and what led you to this multi-facet successful career in clinical practice, medtech and entrepreneurship?
Rehan Ahmed: Yeah, I know. Well, first of all, thanks for having me. Um, it’s really a pleasure to be here and looking at the list of other speakers you’ve had, I definitely have, um, this, um, sense of imposter syndrome and like, I really don’t belong with your luminaries that you’ve had beforehand.
I’m, I’m, I’m glad I somehow snuck in. So, um, Yeah, you know, my, my story really begins in the basement of my home, uh, growing up in a small town in central Illinois. My dad came there. He’s a physician from Pakistan. He settled in essentially a small town. We’re surrounded by farmland and cows. In the middle of, uh, essentially nowhere, uh, but I remember growing up and being surrounded by books, like floor to ceiling books.
My dad was an avid reader, and I would follow through, and on sort of the hot, humid summer days, I would go downstairs, and I would just read voraciously. And, um, and that sort of led me to a lot of just being really interested in a lot of different things, um. And I got obsessed with computers. This is sort of the mid 90s, late 90s, really obsessed with computers, computer programming, so much so that, um, you know, I taught myself C and I got into artificial neural networks.
And I was, I was at the university as a high school student, um, working on an AI project. Again, it’s like the early 90s. I wish I’d stayed with AI. I would not be sitting here probably if I stayed with, with AI, I was on an AI project doing vision software, and that got me really interested in, in eye, vision in general, and eyes, and, um, and then, um, I got interested in the idea of philosophy, philosophy of mind, like how do, how does perception work, and what are thoughts, and what are, what is consciousness?
So then I went to university, I majored in philosophy, uh, particularly in philosophy of mind, thinking, you know, maybe I’ll do degrees in philosophy. Uh, and of course, um, I didn’t do that because I got interested in the biological basis of, of thoughts and consciousness. Okay, well, let me go to medical school.
So then I went to medical school, think I’d be a neurosurgeon or neurology or something. And then, um, I fell in love with the eye. Anatomy the first semester of medical school. Uh, and you’re a physician as well, so you remember the an anatomy and anatomy where I went to med school was, was, was a wonderful course.
Um, and there was a lot of reverence around the person who donated their body and the eye. And I was just, I was just so intrigued by this beautiful organ. And when I did rotations in ophthalmology, looking at. The eye in a magnified way is a different experience entirely. If you have, if you go to the eye doctor, you just sit there and you see a light shining in your eye.
But what the eye doctor is seeing is really a miracle. Uh, when I first looked at the, the iris, which is a colored portion of the eye, you could start to see the hills and valleys and the undulations of the iris structure, and it looks like you’re looking at mountains on the surface of the moon. Um, and then the, and then the pupil sort of constricting on light, it was just, it was just beautiful.
I thought, I thought this, this organ was such a powerful organ. In fact, um, you know, people would rather, I don’t know if this survey is true or not, but people say they would rather die than go blind. I mean, if you believe that. So the sense, the sense is such an important sense. And I just got, I fell in love with it.
Uh, and so I did my ophthalmology residency. Uh, and I, I loved, um, I loved that. Ophthalmology for me is a very practical field. Uh, because you can change someone’s life in a relatively short procedure. Um, like cataract surgery. I remember one of my first cataract surgeries was a patient, she had bilateral cataracts from diabetic cataracts.
And she hadn’t seen anything for three years. She was in her early fifties. And the first time she saw was after I did cataracts, which was the morning of. And I remember her taking off her patch, and she gave me a big hug right afterwards. And it was just a wonderful, you know, like a wonderful experience of being, having that human connection and ophthalmology.
And it was just, uh, it was a fantastic experience. Um, so that, that’s how I got into ophthalmology as just, um, it’s kind of a, uh, different things from philosophy of mind and color perception and neurology, but ultimately into ophthalmology. And that’s been, it’s been a wild ride. Well,
Naji Gehchan: thanks. Thanks for sharing.
And I love how you you’re framing it as it was just simple, but it’s definitely with your curiosity and how you saw things a little bit different that brought you to ophthalmology to take us a little bit further within the journey. So now. interested in entrepreneurship, you’ve built different startups, you mentor startups.
So how did you move into more of this also managerial and leadership and entrepreneurship side?
Rehan Ahmed: Um, so this is where it delves into a little bit the personal. I’m happy to chat about that because, um, after I finished My residency and fellowship, I got one of these ill fated phone calls that we always sort of, you always sort of hear about that changes your life in a direction.
And, um, it was a phone call from my wife at that time, who said they found, we were trying to have children, who were doing routine CAT scans, and they found a meth on her kidney. And, um, it turned out after everything that it turned out to be an aggressive form of kidney cancer. And, you know, we were 31 at the time.
She was, you know, my best friend. I met her when I was 17 years old. We got married at 20, um, married for 11 years. Uh, that moment, I mean, there was a very dark time, uh, and a difficult time after about 20 months, um, he went through chemotherapy and surgeries and more chemotherapy, and it was very difficult for her and, uh, and her caretakers.
And, uh, she passed away, unfortunately, 20 months afterwards. Uh, but to answer your question, that, That after that, that was like a lot of lessons there, right? I mean, tons of lessons. We could fill up multiple hours and probably hours of therapy or something, which I haven’t done, but it sounds, you know, you could do a lot of talking there, but it really made me view life in a, in a way that I wanted to do something more transformational.
You know, at least I wanted to try. Um, and I was happy having that sacred relationship with a patient, but I thought, you know, like, you know, we have, why don’t I try just to do something, uh, where, um, the beautiful thing about medicine is that you have this one on one relationship, but there’s another way that you can think about it is having, um, Scaling that relationship to thousands and potentially millions of patients.
So that’s what got me into medical devices and drug development and thinking more systems thinking and bigger picture, which sort of changed my trajectory to something else. I know it’s kind of a long answer to such a straightforward question, but that’s it.
Naji Gehchan: Oh, well, thank you. Yeah. And thank you, Ryan, for answering and sharing this part of your story.
Um, so you’re saying, and I love how you framed it, the amplification of your impact, right? From one patient to being able to help. Thousands with what you do. So I’m intrigued as you’ve done this, and I hear it from several physicians where we’re really used to have this adrenaline, this immediate impact on one patients that you heal that you save.
How do you see this when your impact is indirect now that you’re leading an organization or leading other teams for them to be able to impact lives?
Rehan Ahmed: Yeah, so I, so I sort of, um, I’m hedging my feelings a little bit because I still do patient care. And that’s, uh, that’s really important to me. I, I, I, I am still clinically active.
And so I think having that connection to patients is crucial. As you sort of start expanding your reach into doing something a little bit more wider impact, um, it’s definitely different, uh, and you can, I think the best people are the ones to have to still have some connection to real patient care who are still with physicians or nurses or healthcare providers in the trenches, uh, because that’s where the change actually occurs, not for some ivory tower.
Far away. You know, we may come, some of ’em may come up with some brilliant idea, but it’s the, the people on the ground who are touching and talking and listening to patients who are actually affect the change that the, the, the others are sort of wanting. So, um, so I think, you know, maybe I push back a little bit from the premise.
I think you need that patient care in order to, to really, um, drive change. And that’s why, you know, partly why I did the MBA. I think physicians have to have a, a louder voice at the table. Um, and really be involved because we’re best positioned, we are, we are well positioned to, to, to, to have those conversations with multiple stakeholders because we’re really at the center oftentimes between the patient and the sort of healthcare system in general.
Naji Gehchan: So that’s cool on this one, because one of your expertise and what you, where, where you say you bring a lot of value is really bridging those gaps, right? And putting all those different healthcare stakeholders. You know, in one place and helping them, um, you know, move better care. So can you share a little bit more your view about this?
So I understand that you want to, uh, remain focused and anchored on patient’s care at the end of the day, but how do you do it and how do you see, you know, bridging those gaps actually
Rehan Ahmed: happening? Yeah. So that’s a great question. Um, I think it starts. By asking yourself what problem, and you know this from, from our, from our classes, you know, that we’ve seen, what problem are you solving for?
That has to be the, the guidepost question for all your subsequent decision tree analysis. What, what, and that has to keep, you have to keep reminding yourself, what problem are you solving for? Because as I advise a lot of MedTech startups, they have brilliant ideas, and brilliant technology, and fantastic stuff, but Um, if there’s not really a pain point, um, there’s no, if there’s no problem, then no one’s really going to pick up on the beautiful solution that they came up with.
And I’m sure you see this all the time as well. So for me, it’s thinking about very specifically on that and reminding myself and the teams I advise on that fundamental question.
Naji Gehchan: Is there one fundamental problem you’re trying to solve these days? So I’ve
Rehan Ahmed: been thinking very deeply about, you know, I think about eye care in general, but, uh, and there are a lot of technologies about separating the exam, uh, from, well, tele, tele eye exams, like tele, tele ophthalmology or tele optometry.
It’s, it’s amazing that during the pandemic. One of the worst specialties, if not the worst specialty in all medicine was ophthalmology and optometry and, and being able to provide exams. Why? Because we need. Uh, that technology at the patient level, like in front of the patient, we can’t, we don’t have yet the ability to do an eye exam over a computer.
And this stuff is coming, but it’s not great. And, uh, there’s still a lot of work to be done. So I think thinking about that problem, that’s the fundamental problem of doing a real tele optometric or tele ophthalmic exam is actually the problem. I’ve been, I’ve been working and spending a lot of time thinking about it the past couple of years.
I love
Naji Gehchan: that. And as you said, you know, now that you’re bringing back COVID, I think it’s definitely one of those organs, as you explained, that we really value, but definitely it was one of the last priorities we thought of. When we were during COVID time, like who did his ophthalmology exam during COVID, which is, which is crazy, as you’re
Rehan Ahmed: saying, right, exactly.
And the other thing that’s really amazing about the eyes is kind of a tangent, but I think about the eyes, a sentinel of disease, and we, you know, a lot of med techs are looking at. You know, various surrogate markers of disease, like what can they look at to predict other features that are, you know, one wouldn’t think of and, um, but looking at the eye or the retina in particular, because that’s one area of neural tissue, brain tissue that we could actually see, you know, without slicing open someone’s head and looking in their brain, we actually look at real nervous tissue through a retina exam.
What other things can we learn about? Is there a connection between Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s and someone’s retina? Can we diagnose? Alzheimer’s a decade before it actually clinically manifests by looking at their retina. What about other neurological diseases? What about cancer? Uh, and so a lot of groups are looking at this, uh, and so it’s something I’m super excited about, thinking about the eye as a, as a way to evaluate for other cardiovascular neurological diseases.
Naji Gehchan: Also, I want to go to more your leadership skills and how you’ve built those through the different experiences you’ve had. You shared one crucifix, obviously, and how you grew from that moment, but also you’ve led in different places. Different type of organizations, um, and also managing patient care constantly up to now, when you think about this, I’d love to hear more about your leadership signature, as we would call it as Sloanies, I’m intrigued about this, how do you define yourself today as a leader, and what has, what is the biggest learning through the journey, and as you mentor all also those different startups and founders.
Rehan Ahmed: Uh, so I like to, in thinking about my, my sort of leadership signature, um, I anchored in my own curiosity of, as, as a, as a little boy in the basement of, uh, of, of my home reading books on from philosophy to biology, to learning about other people. I think that’s sort of a fundamental thing to really care about someone, to really know someone and love someone is that you actually have to be curious about them.
You have to actually ask questions. about them. So I manage a team of doctors and whenever any issue, any issue comes up when I just talk to my, I was. I would really actually try not to fake any curiosity about them. I really genuinely want to know about them, about them, their family, their lives, what their interests are.
Um, I think that is a foundational and really being a good leader. Curiosity about your world, curiosity about your fellow man. Um, curiosity about the problem you’re trying to solve, about the system. I think that is a bedrock for a lot of the kindness and love and happiness and joy that you’re trying to bring to the world.
So for me, that is the foundational way of, I look at my own leadership signature. It’s about an, uh, just sort of like a beauty of the world, you know, of this time together. You know, I’m informed a lot, you can probably tell by, by grief and, and suffering and that, but it really comes down to like, you know, we have, uh, this life is a beautiful life.
We have a beautiful. Like, the time that we have is beautiful, and to be having great gratitude toward that, um, to me, stems a lot just from curiosity, and just like, this mystery of this beautiful world. And these beautiful people that you work with and learning about them. So if you, if you take, when I take that mindset, I find that everything else sort of falls into place really well.
So for me, um, my foundational leadership principle on the ways to organize my life, interacting with people is from one of curiosity. Well, thank you for sharing
Naji Gehchan: that. And it’s got off a great segue for my next section where I’ll give you a word and get your reaction. So I probably know your first. Words reaction.
The first word is leadership.
Rehan Ahmed: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it stems again from curiosity. I think that that is the bedrock. I sort of answered that question in advance, but it’s really a genuine curiosity. It’s not something you can’t really fake it. You really have to want to learn about other people and their time and the world.
And when they feel that it’s magic.
So the second one is intrapreneurship, um, problem solving. Problem solving. Um, in medicine, we see this a lot. Um, there’s, there’s a tech that’s really great, but it’s not solving a problem. And, and, um, or it’s not looking at all the other stakeholders that are involved, you know, ensure, especially in the U. S.
Um, we have, you know, accountable care organizations, we have insurance, regular fee for service, we have insurance, and so, um, it’s, it’s a complicated landscape, and so thinking about, um, the problem and who’s, who’s willing to pay for the solution, um, those are, those are the things to, to, to keep in mind. The third one is MIT.
Um, for me personally, it’s. A second chance in a way, because I, um, the only reason I only applied to one school for business school and for the executive MBA was MIT, I actually got in as an undergrad and I was about to go, but for a variety of reasons, family, et cetera, I didn’t, I didn’t go. I went to a school, um, locally in Chicago.
So I actually, I didn’t go. And so for me. It’s a second chance to, in a way, make things right, because I always wanted to go, and I was so excited when, when I got in, and when I went on campus, I thought, well, you know, you don’t get a second chance at life, you can’t redo things, but sometimes, you know, you can do things a little bit delayed.
You know, and that’s okay. And
Naji Gehchan: the last one is spread love in organizations.
Rehan Ahmed: Really understanding people, getting to know them and being curious about, about their lives and what makes them tick. That will, that will move organizations and your relationships in ways that you can’t imagine.
So
Naji Gehchan: usually I would ask for a final word of wisdom, but with all our discussions and really deep discussions we’ve had, um, you’ve been still doing a lot. You said you’re still a clinician, you’re a mentor, but you have your company. You also manage physicians. What are the questions I frequently have for those of us who do like so many different things is how do you do that?
So I’m going to ask you this question. Tell me, how do you
Rehan Ahmed: do that? Um, it’s not just me, basically. Uh, it’s a team and it starts with my, my, my wife of, um, Uh, since 2016, uh, she’s been wonderful. We have two kids together. And so, uh, it’s been, uh, she is the rock for me. Uh, and so that, it takes a team, uh, and it starts, it starts with that relationship because if that’s, you know, if that whole relationship’s not good and everything else falls by the wayside.
So, uh, for me, it’s the, it’s the, it’s the people you surround yourself with. Namely for me, it’s my spouse.
Naji Gehchan: Oh, great. That’s, that’s a great, um, that’s a great summary, I would say of how you do it. I I can, I can certainly relate to it heavily. ,
Rehan Ahmed: I’m sure. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. No, yeah, I’m, I’m sure you can relate because there’s no way that people can do, there’s always an army of, of people below, um, who are actually doing all the work.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, Rayan, for healthcare leaders around the world?
Rehan Ahmed: You know, the problem is grand. You know, and I’m just working on one little, uh, organ, on one little, you know, system, and particularly the U. S. Like, so… The problem is grand in front of us. And so I think this is the most, um, healthcare is the most pressing problem. I think facing, um, um, our, our world and sort of moving forward.
There’s many, many other problems, but for me, I think it’s the biggest problem because if we don’t have our health, then what do we really have? Um, and it involves multiple areas, including climate and, and, and the stump and environment, et cetera. But. Um, yeah, I think for us it’s time to, to get to work, to get our voices heard, to get at the, to, to be at, um, to be at the table and speaking for our patients and our communities.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much for being with me today!
Rehan Ahmed: Oh, it’s a pleasure. This has been wonderful. Thank you so much for the opportunity and the time.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Rehan Ahmed first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Fabrice Barlesi CEO of Gustave Roussy, a Leading Cancer Centre in Europe, ranked third world’s best oncology hospital and first outside the United States. Fabrice is a lung cancer specialist and a major contributor to research in the field of novel oncological therapies. He was appointed CMO then CEO of Gustave Roussy since 2020. Fabrice is a Professor of Medicine at the University of Aix-Marseille and joined Paris Saclay University in 2022. He has been head of the Multidisciplinary Oncology and Innovative Therapies Department of the Nord Hospital in Marseille and the Marseille Centre for Early Trials in Oncology (CLIP2) which were established by him. Fabrice is also co-founder of the Marseille Immunopôle French Immunology network. Fabrice is the author and co-author of some 400 articles in international journals and specialist publications. In 2018, the European Society of Medical Oncology (ESMO) and the International Association for the Study of Lung Cancer (IASLC) awarded him the prestigious Heine H. Hansen prize. He appears in the 2019 world list of most influential researchers.
Fabrice, it is a pleasure to see you again and have you with me today!
Fabrice Barlesi: Thank you, Naji. It’s a great pleasure to bewith you and to make this podcast with you.
Naji Gehchan: I would love first to learn more about your personal story. Why did you choose medicine, oncology, and now leading one of the most renowned cancer institutions in the world? What is the story behind this incredible journey?
Fabrice Barlesi: I think it’s, uh, quite a simple story. In fact, um, I, I have been, uh, interested to medicine by a neighbor of my parents who was, uh, a gp.
And in fact, uh, when I grew up, I was discussing with him, he was, uh, showing me or explaining me what he was doing, the patients he was seeing, what he was doing with the patients. And, uh, and then I, I, I became passionate by, by medicine and by. Doing six for others, I will say. Then, uh, I started, um, the School of Medicine and, uh, and I have to confess that during, uh, my training, uh, uh, at least I will say during the theoretical training because in France we have six years of, uh, theoretical training and we have students at the hospital, but we are not in responsibility of patients during that time.
And, uh, I was really not And even it’s the contrary. I was quite sure that I was not made for oncology and In fact why because I believe that when you look at oncology on the theoretical point of view, you know you are learning a lot of Classification a lot of different treatments But you are not seeing the other face of oncology beyond medicine and beyond science That is the patient that is the humanity of the patient that is saving life And, uh, it’s, it was during my first, uh, uh, resident, uh, uh, stay, I would say it was in a, in a small hospital in the, in the, the suburb of, uh, of Marseille.
And, uh, I was, I remember, I will always remember, it was, uh, an old patient. She was, uh, diagnosed with an ovarian cancer. And she was here at the beginning of, uh, of this, uh, this training and, uh, I was discussing with these patients, uh, while I was seeing also a lot of lung cancer patients. But I remember this patient because she was, you know, she was so, uh, courageous regarding, uh, regarding her disease, et cetera.
And in fact, she was waiting for her grandchildren and she was waiting for the visit and that came for Christmas. And I saw her for the last time on the 24th of December. The grandchildren came on the 24th in the evening, and on the 25th she died. And I, uh, it’s for me the example of what we should do for those patients.
We should try to make them having the life they want to have, to support them during the disease. I would say now find new treatment in order to cure those patients. But I always remember because this example is showing what is oncology for me. Oncology for me, it’s the perfect mix between science and human.
Naji Gehchan: Wow. Thank you so much, Fabrice, for sharing this. I think all of us who’ve done rotations or went to oncology, this, this human side that you described is so powerful. And we really see. How courageous as you said those patients are and what it means actually to add even a day when when a day means so much emotionally for patients.
You moved from being a clinician and I feel your passion as a clinician and researcher to leading now an institute as the chief executive officer. Can you share with us your learning And challenges probably through this transition and how you
Fabrice Barlesi: go with it. In fact, um, you know, um, when I was, uh, based in Marseille, uh, I had the chance to lead, uh, I would say a large, uh, uh, departments of, I would say.
General oncology, but also the early phase drug development center. And it was really exciting, but I would say Gustave Roussi was, uh, was always for me like a model, you know, and when I was in Marseille, I was saying, I want to make the Gustave Roussi of Marseille. Uh, at Gustave Roussi, I had a lot of friends with Jean Charles Soria, with Benjamin Bess.
And then we had a lot of exchanges and with Jean Charles, we were resident at the, at the same time. And, uh, I would say we always add collaborations through the large clinical trials like the SAFIR trial, but also some of the projects like the biomarker France project that we, uh, we ran together. And, uh, and in fact, I came.
In Gustave Roussy beside the admiration I had for this institution to join Jean Charles and Jean Charles asked me to come early in 2020 when he came back from the U. S. to take the head of Gustave Roussy and at that time I came as a CEO and also leading the clinical research organization and I would say for me what I discovered in Gustave Roussy is something that was even more amazing and Fascinating, uh, than than expected because of not of the size of the institution that you made, uh, realized from from outside, but because of, I will say the extreme dedication of all the people here, you know, both the, uh, the, the nurses, the, uh, the, the researchers, the, uh, the MDs, everybody is, uh, Doing things with a lot of patience that they want really and really the the mindset here is to say Everything we are making is to cure more patients today and to cure more patients tomorrow through the research we are, we are carrying out.
And, uh, clearly it’s, uh, it’s something that is, that you may see every day, uh, and, uh, every day of the year. And, uh, uh, it’s, it’s what I see here. Uh, it’s also a place that was a leader for many innovations in oncology, uh, but a place also where we can still try to, uh, to improve our activities, our organizations, because we know that this organization and the needs of the patients and the expectation of the, the society are still Moving, uh, for one and we need to to adapt ourselves to this new world Both regarding the expectation of the patients, but also the expectations of our professionals and we know how much it changed after the covet crisis and I really believe that in gustavo c giving Our hospital, giving the research centers, giving also the other pillars that make Gustavus Union unique.
Our education, we have a large part of education, more than 300 programs that are dedicated to all the professionals. But also our international activities, and we are taking care of more than 1, 500, 1, 500 patients, uh, international patients every year. And we are going to, uh, to open some, uh, facilities outside, uh, France, but also, uh, our spin off, Gustave Roussi Transfer.
That is. Clearly trying to make what has been made very nicely in, uh, in the U. S. And especially in Boston, that is transforming the product of our research into new drug, new devices or new pathways. And the idea is that it’s all we really want to have associated impacts with our research and change the life and the future of the patients.
That is awesome.
Naji Gehchan: And really, you’re taking what’s been there and you’re expanding this and exploring even beyond. I love this idea about also drug development, as you said, and how you can expand those, uh, globally. Um, I want to go back to this moment where you came to Gustave Gosset as you shared in the early 2020 and obviously you came and COVID crisis hit.
Um, you shared the dedication and the devotion of your people. So I’m interested to learn what was your biggest leadership learning during those times of tough moments for your patients and also health care providers going through this crisis.
Fabrice Barlesi: Uh, the big lessons I will say is the, uh, is probably the, um, adaptability of the people when they are facing a huge crisis. Uh, I would say that, uh, we are lucky that, uh, No one of, uh, of us in our generation had to face, uh, a war, uh, at least I would say in, uh, in, uh, in Europe. And, uh, but I would say the COVID crisis was like, uh, a small and of course, quote, uh, uh, smart, uh, war against the virus.
But, uh, it was really, um, uh, the adaptability, the capacity of the people to work 24 hours in order to take care of patients, uh, finding new solutions. And the leadership, uh, during this crisis, I would say was quite, I would say, easier, I would say, because all the peoples We are dedicated to one goal. We want to take care of those patients, whatever they are coming from, and even what is really special in Gustav Rossi for the first time we had in our intensive care unit patients without any cancer.
It was the first time in the story of Gustav Rossi in more than 100 years. And it was really a special moment, but it was quite easy. And what was really important at that time, it’s important every time, but at that time was really to Capture the information that we are coming from all around the world regarding the epidemiology, the knowledge about the virus, the knowledge about the treatments, the knowledge about how we can protect ourselves and protect our people, but also the patients, how we can continue to treat our cancer patients.
Even in this special situation, then we adapted the, uh, the institution and, uh, and finally, uh, the, uh, the, all the, uh, the importance of the vaccinations and how we can go back, uh, to a, to normal life. Uh, I would say not very rapidly, but we wanted to, uh, to, uh, to be able to provide our patients and our, uh, employees with quite a normal life, even if the Covid was still there and through the different waves of the, of the Covid.
Naji Gehchan: So thinking, thinking now forward, uh, we’re at another, uh, what like. We’re at another incredible moment in time, right? And oncology, I’m sure you would agree where innovation, um, will be at this tipping point to cure even more patients with some cancers. We thought we would never be able to tackle or to treat, um, thinking about.
Gene therapy, AI, immuno oncology, a lot of those that are ongoing that will help us really cure patients. So I’m, I’m intrigued. How do you think about the future of oncology for the patients you serve and also for your care teams? Who is treating them daily.
Fabrice Barlesi: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. And, uh, I cannot imagine another work that is more fascinating than oncology as of today.
Uh, it’s really amazing how we change in the last 20 years, I would say, and even more rapidly in the past decade. Um, what, uh, how we foresee the future of oncology is first I would say oncology will not only be dedicated to cancer patients, but also to subjects at high risk of cancer. Then we should also try to prevent the occurrence of cancer by a more dedicated, more precise prevention, but also we should progress to have more.
compliance with screening, then diagnose patients very early. And because it’s one of the way to cure more cancer patients. The second is to be more precise. Also, in the early stages of the disease, I would say in the past. We were sometimes simply saying, okay, the patient has been operated on, then he’s or she’s cured, and then it’s done.
We know that now we have some aggressive disease, even in the early stage, then we should use what we learned in the precision medicine field. And to, uh, uh, apply it for, um, for early stages. And it’s what we do, uh, for, for, uh, patients regarding the, the advanced stage it’s also, I believe that, and we believe in Gustavo C that probably we should be more smart in using local treatment, surgery, radiotherapy, international radiology, even in the advanced stage, uh, or I would say Oligo metastatic disease to say to to use a word that is easily understandable.
And we believe that we may be able to cure, uh, more patients, uh, with the use of this, in using this new, this type of technology, even in metastatic stages. Beside that, regarding, uh, medical treatment, medical strategies. We believe that there are two different big ways. The first one is, uh, to better understand, uh, all the, the, the molecular profile of, of the tumors finding on oncogenic addictions, but also how co molecular alteration are jeopardizing the, uh, the activity of targeted drugs and we can try to combine it in order to overcome the potential resistances, uh, uh, driven by these co molecular alterations.
Thank you. It’s all the work that we should do in this field of precision medicine. The second one is, of course, immunotherapy at a large sense, then saying that the use of checkpoint inhibitors, the one that we have in our hand, but also to develop new drugs, how we should combine it with the new, uh, uh, I would say, uh, strategies that are coming and we are developing in Gustavus Uh, department that is called the immune cell and answer, then we don’t want to, to, to discuss about just, uh, target the cell therapy, I would say, but saying that we could manipulate the immune system and the immune environment with the many type of drugs that are on development or.
For some of them already available, and we believe that it will generate the new strategy for for the patients. And finally, regarding this, uh, this, uh, medical oncological treatment, we believe that we cannot anymore be, uh, have built our strategy on Um, that’s empirical decision. We believe that patients are waiting for more objective decisions.
It’s why we are developing, uh, both biological and digital avatars for our patients in order to be able at the lab, uh, to test, uh, different therapeutic strategies being more and more precise, uh, uh, over the time, uh, with this kind of strategies, just in order at the end to be able. In the time frame, uh, that that will be a turnaround time that would be, um, uh, compatible with the queue of patients, uh, being able to clearly define what will be the strategy with the highest probability of activity in a given patients at a given stage of the disease.
And we believe that this. Ultra precision of the treatment is a part of our future. And finally, the final part of our development and what we foresee is the fact that we will cure more patients. And when we see the data that we have for the moment, we know that we are curing more and more patients, I would say, over the time.
But we want to give these patients back to a normal life. And we have to understand what are the patients with long lasting adverse events with sequelae from the treatment and probably in some of them we, we can go to de escalation of the, uh, of the therapeutic strategy. Then we are, I would say, enlarging the activities and the research in order to, uh, fulfill of this, uh, uh, I would say field of research.
Uh, in order to be, uh, to be more precise for our patients, more potent and cure more
Naji Gehchan: patients. Thank you Fabrice for this great overview and certainly gives hope for, for many of us as caregivers or potential patients. Um, I want now to move to a section where I will give you a word and I would love your reaction to it.
So the first word is leadership.
Fabrice Barlesi: It’s, uh, take the blame and give the credit.
Well, I love that. Can
Naji Gehchan: you, can you share a little bit more? Because I remember also a discussion where you shared your thoughts about what’s your job as a leader and CEO of an organization, and you talked about people and talent. So I’d love to dig a little bit more here.
Fabrice Barlesi: Uh, I believe that the, the, for me, the, um, One of the most important things regarding, uh, the leader in an organization like Gustave Roussy is to be able to attract talents and, uh, attracting talents means that You have the good facilities, you have the good projects, you have, in fact, it’s the, just the final, uh, demonstration of the, the rightness of the decision that you took before, in fact, and, uh, I believe that you, you, you may be able to attract talent only if you have, all the other things.
Then for me, uh, it’s really important to, to discuss with young people to, uh, to know what are their expectations regarding the research, what are their ideas, all the, but also how they want to live. What are the expectations regarding both their professional life, but also the personal life and try to make the good mix in order to have to have the best institution and not, uh, I would say, uh, just trying to, uh, to set up an organization, an highly efficient organization like that, things that were not in the past, regarding the, uh, the efficiency of the companies or things like that.
The second word is
Naji Gehchan: precision medicine.
Fabrice Barlesi: Precision medicine is, um, is first the, the DNA of Gustave Roussy, uh, with the, uh, and I say the validation of an idea that came more than 20 years ago, that was the idea to use the techniques that were used for research in the labs and transfer this technique to patients. And demonstrate the value of the use of these new techniques.
In, uh, in clinical trials. And then, uh, I would say everywhere. And, uh, it’s what we did, uh, when, uh, uh, what the leaders of Gustave Roussy did at that time, supported by, uh, by Professor Tures, who was the, uh, the CEO of Gustave Roussy at that time. It was clearly to transfer the genotyping of the tumors that was done only at the lab for patients.
In a turnaround time that was, uh, uh, that may be used for the, for the management of patients. Then we set up a new generation of clinical trials, the SAFIA trial for breast, for lung cancer, etc. Demonstrating the use, the efficiency. Of this strategy and then participating to the development in the, uh, in France of the, uh, the network of, uh, of, uh, uh, genotype genotyping platforms in order to provide all of the patients with this kind of strategy.
Then it’s the DNA of precision medicine is the, is clearly the Roussel. And we are trying both to improve what we did in the past, but also To find what are the new technology from coming from the research that we should transfer to the patient and it’s what we are trying to do with a single cell and spatial mix in order to build these biological but also digital avatars of our patients.
Naji Gehchan: And this work for our listeners has really transformed care for patients. So, thanks for all the work that you guys have
Fabrice Barlesi: done. Yeah, clearly, when, when we look, you know, I remember as a lung cancer specialist, when I, when I started, in fact, it was, you know, in the, in the middle of the nineties. In fact, I would say the, the life expectation for stage four lung cancer was like six months.
Now, I have patients that I’m following for more than 12 years, then clearly it changed a lot. And even we have patients that were treated just at the beginning of the era of immunotherapy through clinical trials that are still alive after 10 years with a stage 4 disease, then clearly it changed a lot.
We still have a lot of things to understand both regarding the biology of the tumors and the, uh, how we, we, we made, uh, modulate the immune system, but, but clearly it changed the life of the patients clearly.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. And as we said, we still, we still have a lot to do, but it’s great to see the road that’s been on and hopefully we will, this is why we wake up every morning to, to make sure that we can cure more patients and help them out.
The third word is health equity.
Fabrice Barlesi: It’s, uh, it’s a huge issue, you know, you know, because, um, when you are leading a big centers like Gustavus here, but I would say it’s also true probably when, when you are leading a research group or even a small hospital, you are always trying to improve what is happening in your immediate environment.
But if you are trying to look a little bit, uh, uh, uh, in the future, you realize that it’s absolutely impossible to imagine that the progresses you, you are making. Are just dedicated to the small number of patients that will come to your institution, then it’s really important. And it’s clearly something we are discussing every day in Gustavus.
It’s how the progresses we are making will be disseminated across the country, but also internationally. And the first step for that is education. It’s why we set up Gustave Roussier education with both national and international programs. Because without the knowledge about the innovations, you may not disseminate innovation.
The second is the clinical research. And we set up some very simple, pragmatic trials that maybe run everywhere in the world, but that are set up in order to answer a very simple question. You know, like the lung art trial that we did in, uh, in the past. Should we do radiotherapy in stage into lung cancer or not?
Something very simple, but we have a lot of example like that. And also some, a part of this trial will be dedicated to de escalation. Can we de escalate? I would say, uh, the dosage of immunotherapy or the length of immunotherapy as an example, something that is simple that may be done everywhere. And, uh, and also it’s also the reason why we set up our alumnis.
The alumnis are not only, I would say, like a club where people are happy to meet one time a year during the ESMO meeting, but it’s also. A way to run clinical research everywhere in a large number of countries and, uh, making the possibility for some patients everywhere to accede to molecular genotyping, some strategies regarding research.
And the last one, the last, I would say, uh, uh, pillar for, uh, health equity is also when you are developing. Uh, therapeutic strategy or diagnosis strategy. It’s also to say, okay, I want something that is quite simple and that may be done everywhere at a price that would be affordable for all the patients.
And it’s what we try to do, you know, even when we are developing, uh, very, um, sophisticated tools after that, we move to say, okay, how can we simplify? And, uh, being sure that we may reach the same results because, uh, there is no future for techniques that will be dedicated only, uh, to, to, uh, highly privileged peoples, uh, uh, or some specific centers in some specific countries, we should make progress is available for, for everyone in the world.
Naji Gehchan: I can’t agree more. The last one is spread love and organizations.
Fabrice Barlesi: Um, I would say, it’s, uh, what is important for me is, um, uh, is to, to build organization that, uh, that, um, that, that are, that, that are always, um, dedicated to the, to the largest, uh, I would say institutional interest, I would say. Uh, what is important is that everybody should be aligned with the, uh, with an organization that is serving patients and the patient’s research, education, and the strategy of the, uh, of the institutions, and no one, even the CEO is more important than the institution, and it’s what we try to do, we try to, uh, educate our fellows like that, we, uh, and we have always huge leaders, I would say, in Gustave Roussy, as you cannot find people that are more interested with the institution than people that are working here.
And I can cite, I would say, not all of them, but, you know, Caroline Robert, Karine Kizazi, Benjamin Bez, Fabrice André, uh, it’s a big stars in the field of oncology and I’m sitting only people working in the field of, uh, Technical research because they are very well known everywhere, but we have also basic researchers like Florent Gineau, Olivier Bernard, etc.
And, uh, all of them are really everyday thinking to the institution, what we can do for the institution, how can we attract talent, what are the projects we can fight for, etc, etc. And clearly for me, the organization is, uh, is serving the strategy of the institution. And, uh, and should be both flexible regarding the expectation and the need of the researcher we should be, uh, you know, you should give researchers some freedom in order to think and to develop the, the, the hypothesis they have, but also with always the alignment with the strategy and our strategy regarding, uh, especially research is to say, we want to have a societal impact.
And we, we want to, to, uh, to, uh, conduct a research with associative impact. We want to change the outcome of the patients in a, in a, in a close future.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom Fabrice for healthcare leaders around the world?
Fabrice Barlesi: Uh, the first one is, um, I would say we know that we are in a big competition and, uh, clearly, uh, all the countries, the institutions are trying to, uh, to do their best in order to find a new generation of treatment and to develop a new generation of drugs or pathway or devices.
But at the end, and it’s, uh, the strengths of all of these academic centers, I would say, We know that we are clearly strong together, uh, by also sharing our knowledge through, I would say, the international societies, the different meetings that we have, and clearly aligning both this competition and this collaboration.
They are not the opposite. They are just the two faces of the same coin.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Fabrice. It’s an incredible chat. Thank you also for what you do as a CEO and for all Gustave Roussy’s team. The social impact is more than clear and obvious through all the years and hopefully even more exciting innovations for the years to come, coming from you.
Thank you so much for joining me today.
Fabrice Barlesi: Thank you, Naji. It was a great pleasure.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Alicia Tozier Senior Vice President of Global Market Access and Marketing for Outlook Therapeutics, a company specializing in Ophthalmic products. Alicia has served as a Global Healthcare Senior Executive, leading teams across the full product life cycle and 18+ launches spanning 8+ therapeutic areas in 70+ global markets, via multiple innovative modalities including: medical devices, digital therapeutics, and pharmaceuticals. She is a purpose-driven leader, guided by integrity, values, and a deep focus on the patient informed by her own experience as a caregiver. She holds a bachelor’s degree from UC Santa Barbara, an MBA from Colorado State University, and is an alumnus of the Stanford Graduate School of Business Executive Program.
Alicia, It is a pleasure to see you again and have you with me today!
Alicia Tozier: The pleasure is mine, Naji. Thank you for having me.
Naji Gehchan: Can you first share with us your personal story? What led you to healthcare and becoming a senior executive in biotech today?
Alicia Tozier: Great question. I would say health care is definitely where my passion lies.
Um, and I tend to be very purposeful, right, in terms of my desire to be in health care. Um, I think one of the ways that you and I were actually first connected was in terms of my desire for being a purposeful leader and I actually am able to participate in a non profit book that’s being put together by a good friend, Jill Donahue.
Um, I have an excerpt I could actually read for you, Najee, if that makes sense. Yes, perfect. We both
Naji Gehchan: got connected through Jill, so we’re
Alicia Tozier: both fine. We did. Indeed, indeed, indeed. Um, so, uh, what I wrote was, uh, titled For Those of Us Struck by Lightning. A confession about what motivates me. It’s 2 a. m. I’m at my child’s bedside.
He’s asleep now. The seizure ended 3 minutes ago. But the fever that caused it rages on. His hand is resting on mine, bigger now, than it was when I first held it, when they placed him on my chest at the hospital. But he’s still my baby, my angel. And it kills me to see him this way. In 4 hours I have a conference call, in 6, a presentation.
This has been my life more times than I care to remember for the last eight years, ever since my son was diagnosed with a rare genetic disorder that thankfully he will grow out of. I don’t want you to feel sorry for me. It’s a small price to pay to have the privilege of having such a wonderful human being in my life.
I tell this story because I want folks to understand for me. That working in the rapidly advancing field of health care is not just a passion, it’s personal. I have another confession to make. I hate when someone, especially a doctor, quotes statistics at me. I’ve had two different neurologists tell me that the chances of Ethan’s symptoms being Gefts Plus with no prior family history was less likely than being struck by lightning.
Well, for those of us who have been struck by lightning, the fact that it’s a rare occurrence is little comfort. Accordingly, every time I hear of a novel therapy or new indication for a previously existing product, especially one that treats a rare disease, I think of Ethan. I think of a parent sitting in a dark room at the bedside of a sick child and remember how lonely a place 2 a.
m. can be. We all got in this field for different reasons. We’re all motivated by different things. But I wanted us all to take a moment to remind ourselves that we work in an industry that generates health care solutions for real people, and I, for one, couldn’t think of a better use of my time. So, that’s really what I wrote, uh, Najee, and I think it’s my heart on a page.
You know, it’s truly important what we do. Oh, thank you
Naji Gehchan: so much for sharing this part of your, uh, of your story. So can you take us a little bit back in time when you really started in the health care and how you shaped your purpose as you were going through and what you’re doing today as a
Alicia Tozier: leader? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Um, you know, as I started back in health care, I’d love to claim it was part of a grand plan. Um, but it wasn’t, you know, I, I saw health care as an opportunity to give back. Um, and if I rewind back even before there in my life story, a lot of what has shaped me. Has to do with my upbringing. Um, so I’m third generation.
My grandmother on my mother’s side, uh, didn’t actually speak English and my grandfather was literally a hero, um, in the war and, uh, you know, came back to the States and had two jobs, worked hard, was a small business owner, um, raised a family and was an incredible role model for me growing up. And so I knew.
That leadership was going to be a part of what I wanted to do, and I knew that career and achievement could be tied in a noble way to giving back to others. And so for me, as I thought about my career early on in the early days, I knew that leadership was going to be a part of what I wanted to do. I knew that work ethic, another thing I learned from my grandfather’s modeling, was something that I wanted to pull through in everything that I did.
Um, I started out in health care on the pharma side of the business, and, uh, I would say I earned my first role, um, when I had no business even being in pharma. I had no experience, but I was passionate about diabetes, um, at the time, interviewing for Sanofi Aventis. And, um, you know, it ran in our family, so that was a passion of mine.
And somehow or another, I convinced the interview team to hire me. Um, and that was the way I started in pharma. And since then, translated across the device world, digital therapeutics. But when my son was born, and again, this was about eight years ago, I think it really reinforced my desire to be in healthcare, and really solidified what I wanted to accomplish.
Naji Gehchan: So you, we see the, we hear it, I see it, but we hear the passion you have in your voice and healthcare throughout giving back, helping others. Very early on. And then what you shared with Ethan, your son and how passionate you are to bring innovative therapies even even more for one single person who might be suffering and rare diseases, which is really noble.
And I think it’s great. that we are seeing advances in gene therapy today and other domains that will hopefully help, uh, those patients, uh, can you share with me a little bit more how you would define your purpose? How do you define it personally? I always get this because all of us in healthcare are here for a reason.
We all have this strong purpose that we have. And we really want to do good and help patients live better. But frequently I get this question, how do you get to define your purpose as a person? And then how would you translate it to your teams on a daily basis? So I’d love to hear how you get to this point of defining yours.
And then how do you do it with your teams to drive them constantly to bring innovations
Alicia Tozier: to patients? Yeah. Yeah. Um, so great question. Um, I guess I would say the beginning of my purpose, if I were to think of what drives me is certainly my role as a caregiver and the experience that I’ve had, you know, um, navigating, you know, as a caregiver, a rare condition with my son, as well as other health conditions, right, that exist in the family.
Um, what I’ve pulled from that from a leadership perspective are a couple of things. You mentioned passion. So I think passion for the patient is front and center and everything that I do. Um, when I think of how I translate that into teams and team dynamics and achieving goals, truly it’s about reminding ourself on a day to day basis that what we’re doing at the end of the day impacts a patient.
Impacts a caregiver impacts a family member, and I’ve been given, you know, that gift of having a medicine truly impact and change our lives personally. So ways, you know, just pragmatically that I pull that into what I do is just, you know, um, ensuring that we bring patients in. To our meetings, ensuring that we know as much as possible what the experience is like for patients.
Um, if it’s vision, you know, showing pictures of vision loss and the fact that the center of your vision is blurred. Oftentimes, our meetings will begin with pictures like that. It can be small, tiny ways just to remind us that there’s many noble professions and we have quite a big responsibility in health care.
that we have patients lives at stake. Um, the other part I’d say I learned in the gift I gained as a caregiver is just compassion. So it’s important to put the patient first, but I can’t be at the sacrifice of the team, right? So having compassion for team members is something that I try to bring through.
Um, and that can be in, in simple ways, right? I think that You know, we need to set audacious goals. We need to have accountability, both ourselves as well as our team members. But there’s ways to do that with compassion by checking in and saying, Hey, what’s getting in your way? What supports do you need?
How can I help? And I think continuously doing that as a leader can model that for others to do the same.
And you’ve
Naji Gehchan: left the team in both big pharma. As you said, you started there. You moved to biotech. You’ve done my devices. I’m intrigued. Is there a specific leadership trait or capability that you really relied on as you’re doing those? Because you led also globally. Large teams, smaller teams, but always with the same passion at the end of the day to bring innovation to patients.
Was there something that you feel like a trait as a leader that you really all the time relied on during those different experiences?
Alicia Tozier: Yeah, yeah, I would say a trait that has served me well, um, is truly this concept that the best idea wins. And, you know, whether it’s leading large teams at a global level, U.
S. level, um, device or pharma. Um, I would go back to my roots. And one of the things I learned as I observed my grandfather as a leader is that everybody’s voice counts. And the best ideas can come from anyone. Um, so as I faced business challenges, what I try to do is just to ensure that I’m capturing the voice of many.
Um, when I scale teams, I purposely try to recruit talent that bring unique skill sets to the table and different experience sets, whether it’s coming from a large company, coming from a different part of health care, um, but truly trying to arm a team With diversity of skill sets and experiences. Um, and my kids, you know, like many of us love Disney.
So if you’ve seen Ratatouille, you know, it’s like, you know, you know, anyone can cook, right? So in my mind, any idea, a great idea can come from everywhere. Everyone’s not a great cook, perhaps, but that great idea can come from any pocket
of the organization as well. I love
Naji Gehchan: this. So we’re going here into what we would call as, you know, like the IP, right? Like all this diversity, how you include, how you’re equitable. And then we discussed both of us, not in this podcast, but quite a bit about belonging. So I’d love to get your view. Once you’re saying best idea wins, everybody’s voice.
really counts and is important in the game. How do you do it practically as you’re building teams? How do you, can you give us some stories or maybe tips for, for us as leaders and to how to ensure that it’s not only hiring diverse. People, but really making sure that the culture is built around, including them, hearing their voices and then building the sense of belonging.
Alicia Tozier: Yeah. Yeah. I, I think sense of belonging is absolutely critical. And I think, um, anchoring down in terms of this best idea winning and truly hearing from different pockets of the organization. Um, There’s an example that comes to my mind, and this was, you know, many moons ago, uh, but I was, you know, walking into a launch scenario.
It was a couple years before launch, and it was like a perfect storm. Um, we had a supply constraint, over 50 markets we were launching in, and we had to start to prioritize which markets we were going to go to. So, I see you smiling. You know, these, these instances do happen. And, uh, as I walked into the situation, the initial concern was it’s a supply constraint.
So I immediately started saying, how do we solve the supply issue? Can we get high capacity lines? What could we do to solve this problem? Um, and it turned out that wasn’t actually the real problem. That wasn’t the real challenge. And so that was a good learning. And I actually had to pivot myself, but the way I discovered this was by asking questions from folks beyond just, you know, your typical leaders, general managers, et cetera.
I started to talk to our different cross functional partners, and it wasn’t until I had a conversation with an I. T. Gentleman was building the platform, um, and really having a conversation and seeking his input and perspective that I realized that the actual issue was translation hurdles. And the fact that we had prioritized markets based upon which, um, languages we would have available.
So you had markets like Estonia launching before Germany. So obviously, you know, this created a dilemma. We went back, we restructured our launch sequencing, we aligned it to our strategy, business objectives, what patients needed in those markets, and we actually chose to exit certain markets. And differentiate different product offerings based upon that.
So it was a big sort of reboot. But where I go back to is just that conversation I had with somebody who wasn’t the typical person sitting on the leadership committee. And I think the learning I took away from that, and I try to bring through within teams is that everybody’s voice counts the great idea, the great aha can come from anyone.
It doesn’t matter if it’s the IT person, the HR person, the janitor, or the CEO, right?
Naji Gehchan: I love this example, and yeah, we’re faced with these examples, and I, what you said is so critical, right? When you have a big problem, try to go see and assess, right? And really listen to people who operationally are trying to fix it.
It’s such a great example you’re giving. Thank you for that. I’m gonna now give you a word, and I would love your reaction to it. So the first word is leadership
Alicia Tozier: leadership. Well, my first reaction I’d say is it’s tough and it’s a lifelong journey. Um, and the reason that I say that is because I think all of us leaders that strive to be the best versions of ourself that we can possibly be requires constant desire to adapt to change to grow. And I would say for myself in particular, that’s certainly been the case.
I’ve had plenty of bumps and bruises along the ways learnings that I’ve pulled forward. I don’t think I’ll ever get to a point where I’ll have life licked. And I’m like, all right, I got it. You know, I think there’s always this desire. To learn a bit more. And I had the good, um, I was grateful to go through a recent leadership program, even as of this last year.
So it’s like you get your MBA, but you can get to a point where you’re like, you know what, there’s new things to learn. And I was surrounded by 70 other leaders who were very accomplished in their career, clearly very smart. And yet they chose to be there. They didn’t have to be there. They wanted to be there.
And that was such a perfect gift for me that I’m really grateful for to just remember that leadership is about constantly wanting to learn and grow.
Naji Gehchan: I love it. We’re constantly work in progress, obviously, as leaders. Yeah. But you need to that you’re demonstrating once again to say, like, I still have a lot to learn.
Right. I think this is part of the traits you’re breaking in this discussion. Uh, so if I want to double down on this one, is there anything that you wished you knew as leader, like 10 years ago or 15 years ago when you started to lead teams and manage teams?
Alicia Tozier: Yeah. Um, You know, what I would pull is a Mr.
Rogers quote, uh, my kids will also watch a show called Daniel Tiger. And one of the phrases is it’s okay to make mistakes, try to fix them and learn from them too. And I think early on when we’re all go getters and we’re trying to build our career and show the world what we can do, it can feel like you can’t make mistakes.
But failing forward is actually one of the best qualities I think a leader can have. We all stumble and I think it’s all about acknowledging the mistakes, learning and growing from it.
The next word
Naji Gehchan: is
Alicia Tozier: purpose.
I would say beating heart. It’s for me, the beating heart of what I do. And we shared in the beginning of the conversation, some more specificity as to why. Um, my son has taught me so much and, you know, I was interested in health care, certainly before, you know, we had Ethan, but it has only become more solidified.
And my purpose is truly, for me personally, my beating heart. It’s why I really like doing what I’m doing. And I just expand upon that story a bit further and share that even today, we’re experiencing challenges in our journey. It’s still an ongoing journey. We’re trying to get access to medicine. And so as a leader, I oversee marketing, market access.
And what I do every day is think about how we can get access to therapies for patients. And yet on a daily basis, even as of this week, I’m trying to get approval for this unique medication for my son. So purpose to me is the beating heart because it’s so intertwined with what I do, I can’t even separate it.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, you, you bring up access and it’s certainly, yeah, it’s one of those problems we’re facing and, and globally and in the U. S. it’s just mind puzzling and in a country like the U. S. having issues with access or worrying of getting a job. Approved for patients who need it, but it shows that we have still a lot of work to do as health care leaders.
Alicia Tozier: Yeah, and we’ve made great progress. I would just acknowledge that. I think we are on the path to providing more options. There’s rare diseases that are being studied and evaluated with models that can allow for access. So I would say, yeah, is there opportunities? Absolutely. Um, are we on a great path? Yes.
And that’s part of what I want to contribute towards.
Naji Gehchan: We’re, we’re lucky to have people and leaders like you striving every day to make that happen. So thanks for sharing this. Uh, cia, the third word is lightning. Hmm.
Alicia Tozier: Well, , I literally had lightning, um, as part of the title of my excerpt, and I would say what I think of when I hear that word is the first seizure that Ethan ever had. And it’s, it’s part of the, the humility back to the comment around learning. And a trait that I have found to be really meaningful as a leader is, you know, the first seizure that occurred.
We were literally struck by lightning. We never thought something like that would happen. We didn’t do everything right. We did the best that we could, but then we rapidly learned after that. And I think all of us face different situations in our lives where we’re caught flat footed. Sometimes we’re knocked to the ground.
And it’s all about how we get up and it’s all about how we learn and how we take that forward.
Naji Gehchan: Well, this is so powerful and inspiring, uh, what you’re sharing, uh, can I ask a question around? Also, you shared you’re a caregiver, you’re a mom, you’re an executive, you’ve been super successful as a leader in healthcare and And beyond, I would say, with the influence you have on the systems, you’re, you’re a student too.
Now, again, you’re really such a great role model for many who sometimes don’t feel they can do all this. So I’d love to go there. And if you can share any advice, how, how do you do it? How, how you would encourage others to try to do things? I’d love your take on this.
Alicia Tozier: Mm. Well, that’s a great question. And Nagy, if you ever get the recipe, I would want to I would want to hear it and see it.
I would claim that I don’t have the perfect recipe. So to answer your question directly, how do I accomplish that imperfectly? Imperfectly, and I think it comes back to grace. We talked a lot about compassion for teams, but oftentimes I think one of the biggest tasks we can all face is having self compassion and giving ourselves grace that we’re doing the best that we can.
It sounds very simple, but it’s not always easy in application. So I would just acknowledge that first and foremost, um, the other piece that I would just share is that I have an amazing spouse. Um, I met my husband in high school, so I was, uh, high school sweethearts. We’ve lived our lives together. Um, he is a full time dad.
And so in terms of managing everything at home, you know, things have ebbed and flowed, but I am incredibly grateful to have him, you know, Fully focused on our Children, our family being an incredible partner. So I think that that’s given me, um, basically the ability to do what I do. I think he’s Superman.
Um, the other part I would just share is, um, you know, uh, mindfulness. You know, it’s funny, and all the things that you just listed off, I do carve out time just to be mindful, and that’s sometimes the biggest challenge. I mean, when we wake up in the morning, each of us are wired different ways. It takes different things to help us show up in the best version of ourselves.
But, you know, I have my own routine that, um, I go through in the morning, um, and it helps me be mindful and stay healthy. Thank you for
Naji Gehchan: sharing this. The last word is spread love and organizations.
Alicia Tozier: Um, number one, I agree that that’s important. Um, you know, I think it’s incredible that you’re doing this podcast, Naji, and I’ll just say that right now. Um, the more we can be learning from each other, the better. When I think of the phrase spread love, what I think about, um, is bringing passion. And compassion.
Um, and that’s the gift that I’ve been given as a caregiver to bring forth to everything I do, whether it’s at home or at work, but when I hear spread love, I think of how can you bring passion to what you do, whether it’s a love for your community within work, whether it’s the passion for what you’re going to accomplish through all of your efforts, and then compassion is just giving people grace.
I mean, we all have things going on in our lives. And I think the more that we can try to learn from one another, the more we can check in and ask, how are things going? What support do you need and how can I help? I think the better.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?
Alicia Tozier: You know, um, I’m struck by what you’re doing with this podcast, Naji, and I’m so glad that you are. Um, I’m inspired by the sharing of stories. I think my story is one, um, that could be helpful, but I know there are many. Um, and so I would just put a call out there to share your story however you can, um, because I think we all can learn from one another.
We talked about this earlier, um, and anyone can cook. Great ideas can come from everywhere, um, and I think you can learn something from everybody. So I think the more that we’re able to share, um, our journeys with one another, the better. And I think just staying open and curious to learn and grow.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, uh, Alicia, for your words.
I certainly learned a lot from you. What an incredible, uh, chat. Thanks for your generosity, vulnerability, and exceptional leadership that you demonstrated today. Uh, so it’s, it’s been a real pleasure and honor to have you. Thanks. Thanks again for being with me.
Alicia Tozier: The pleasure is all mine, Naji. Thank you for having me.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Alicia Tozier first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
This episode is very special. In partnership with ESCP Business School, I’ll be giving the mic to students, our leaders of tomorrow, to discuss with incredible healthcare executives about their journeys and leadership beliefs.
ESCP Students: Hello, I am Charlotte Périsset, special master’s student at ESCP Business School in Paris, and I’m thrilled to be joined by an outstanding innovative leader. General manager of Merck, France, and president of LEM, the French organization of pharmaceutical industry. Thierry Hulot has a degree in pharmacy and an MBA from Auschwitz Business School.
He started working at Merck in 1995 in research, in research and development in Lyon, in France. After a different strategic position, Thierry Hulot has taken on the role of general manager of the biopharma division of Merck in France. This lover of art is also involved in the defense of the interests of pharmaceutical companies in France as he was elected as the president of LEM in July 2022.
Thierry, it is such an honor to have you, to have you with us today. My pleasure is mine, Charlotte. Thank you very much. So to begin, um, we know that you have such an amazing career path and you are now involved in two main positions. So how do you deal with this position and your personal life and passion
Thierry Hulot: for art?
Well, actually, that’s a good question. And, you know, and well, there was elected as head of the trade association as well. My life is going to go completely south. So let’s take time to breathe and organized. And actually once upon the time when I did my MBA, I read only one management book and the name of the book was more time and less stress.
And it’s a very funny story because he says, let’s imagine that your boss. Drive into your office and say, Thierry, I have an outstanding project for you. You have, it’s a, it’s a unique career opportunity. It will take 25 percent of your time and you have to do it on top. And you are stupid enough, you will say yes.
And the worst is not only you will say yes, but you will deliver. So what is a learning, my friend, is actually in your current setting, you have already those 25 percent of time available. You ignore them. So organize yourself better. And you will find this air to breathe. So, it’s funny, every time, to say, oh, pause, what are the critical things I need to do, to achieve, to deliver today?
And I spend every morning time to, to really consciously think, what will make this day a success? And there’s no rewind. Time passes. So let’s make sure that this day will be successful and success include enjoying the enjoy, enjoying the show, enjoying the time, having fun in the drawing.
ESCP Students: Thank you very much for sharing your story. So, Perx, can you tell more about your greatest strengths as a leader and what are the biggest challenges you had to face in your career path?
Thierry Hulot: Well, I’m absolutely convinced that, uh, leadership has different facets based on people, individual personalities, and whatever is your facet, it’s okay.
As long as you’re authentic and authenticity is a super high value for myself. This is what I’m looking in others. And this is somewhere, I would say this is my north start.
The second part of your question is, what is the biggest challenge I ever, ever had? I would say it’s not one challenge. As I discover along the journey that in many, many situation, I was brutally confronted to completely unexpected situation. Situation that nothing in life. nor a university class, nor an MBA, nor a pharmacy degree can prepare you for.
But all your previous experience give you clues and insight on how to start addressing the problem. So my philosophy in life, my leadership is, guys, let’s be prepared for completely unexpected things. And the day they happen, Stay strong and solid on your on your value. Stay authentic. Stick current and on board your team.
ESCP Students: Thank you. It’s really inspiring. And, uh, to continue about the leadership, uh, what should today’s leaders focus on for the future, in your opinion?
Thierry Hulot: Well, I don’t know. It’s, it’s something really to focus on. What I would say is My leadership vision, you know, there’s many, many books on leadership and the one that works for me and hopefully for the team I want to inspire every day is quite simple and it has three basic rules. Every time I have a decision to take, the first question is, is the decision I’m going to take good for my company because I strongly believe in my company value.
I strongly believe in my. Company vision and mission. And so the question I’m not, is this good for theory or is this good for my department or is this good for the French affidavits I’m running? No, this is good for my company. Right? No, it’s Mac means it’s this link back to authenticity. Let’s assume that I will not be aligned with my company mission, my company vision.
I will quit because this is me first is have this high degree of coherence. Ask yourself. The decision I would to take is trying for my company. If so, let’s deliver it. And you know, when you’re a leader with a huge team, it’s not a send an email to the team and say, good luck, my, my friends, as at time, you have to be hands on with the team to help them solve the issue to get your hands dirty.
Time to time you have to make a deep dive into the details to understand the technicality of it, and really support the team by demonstrating. That you are and with and with them to solve the complicated issue and my third rule for leadership is at the end of the day in 1999 percent of the case. So one who will really deliver on the business.
It’s your team. So take care of your people. Take care of their development. Make them feel rewarded, acknowledge, give them opportunities. And with this, you can navigate.
ESCP Students: Thank you very much. Those are really great advice. Thank you for sharing your vision. Um, I have a question regarding, um, my experience and the experience of, uh, junior people.
Uh, what advice would you give to a junior who wants to have a strategic role in the pharmaceutical industry?
Thierry Hulot: Get started. Get started. And, you know, you don’t know which opportunity will pop up. And the, get, get started. And at one time, a dossier will come to your office, uh, an event will happen that will require people to be smart, to be engaged and jump on it.
Don’t, don’t shy, don’t hide, embrace the problem and, and speak up, speak it and then deliver, deliver on your commitment. Say, okay, I’m willing. To take the risk to truly help on this dossier, let’s get it
ESCP Students: done.
Thank you very much for this advice, Thierry. Um, just to, to, to be back on your leadership style, uh, can you define more, uh, about your, your leadership style? And can you tell us more about your point of view about this topic?
Thierry Hulot: Well, I already cover the basics, my, my free rules. We know when I have to decide what is good for my company, let’s be hands on.
Let’s really. Take care of the team and do this in full transparency and authenticity, you know, at time, uh, you’ll see also have to speak up and what we call here openly disagree. Now, let’s make sure you give space for your colleagues for your team to challenge you to disagree with you if they have a different opinion.
And at the same time, let’s have a very clear rules. We discuss, then we decide after getting everyone’s opinion, and once we have decided, we all act as one. We don’t second guess the decision, we don’t recook the decision, we have discussed with each other’s point of view, now it’s time for action. And this, let’s say, segregation of action.
Time for discussion, time for action. And when we act, we are all as one.
ESCP Students: Thank you very much for this inspiring vision. Uh, now I would like to jump to another section. I will give you one word and when to get your reaction about this word. Are you ready? Yeah. Okay. So the first one is leadership.
Thierry Hulot: Of course.
Leadership is fun.
ESCP Students: Thank you. Patient.
Thierry Hulot: Patient is on North Star. Sustainability. It’s a must, and I feel ashamed that my generation has ignored sustainability for far too long.
ESCP Students: Okay, thank you. And the last one, spread love in organizations.
Thierry Hulot: Well, uh, spread love in organization, uh, for me is another, and I would say more original, more creative way to tell every colleagues, you matter, and I’m going to take care of you.
ESCP Students: Thank you very much. So, uh, any final word of wisdom for health care leaders around the world you want to share?
Thierry Hulot: Guys, around our small planet, there’s millions of people suffering from highly, uh, disability disease. So there’s a need for innovation. There’s a need for new treatment. And you leaders in health care, young leader in health care, in the years to come, will be the one making the difference. to help all the patients. So embrace it. Don’t shy. And let’s start working, guys.
ESCP Students: Thank you so much, Thierry, again for your time and such an inspiring discussion. Thank you so
Thierry Hulot: much. Thank you. My pleasure.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you, Thierry. And thank you all for listening to Spread Love in Organizations podcast. We have such an important responsibility as leaders of today to plant the seeds for the leaders of tomorrow.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to Spread Love and Organizations podcast. We have such an important responsibility as leaders of today to plant the seeds for the leaders of tomorrow. Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment PodcastThe post EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Thierry Hulot first appeared on SPREADLOVEIO.
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
This episode is very special. In partnership with ESCP Business School, I’ll be giving the mic to students, our leaders of tomorrow, to discuss with incredible healthcare executives about their journeys and leadership beliefs.
ESCP Students: Hello, we are Guillaume and Johanna, students in a specialized master’s program in biopharma at ESDP Business School, and we are thrilled today to be speaking with Anette Steenberg, the CEO of the Medical Valley Alliance located in Denmark. Anette is a leader in health innovation in Europe. She graduated in International Trade and Negotiations and worked for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Denmark. After several years in that institution, she joined the Danish pharmaceutical company, Leo Pharma, where she had leadership roles. Anette is now the CEO of the Medical Value Alliance and board member of multiple organizations, such as the Red Cross and Healthcare Denmark.
Aneette, thank you for taking the time to be here with us today. We are so honored to have you. We would love to first hear your personal experience and story and why did you decide to take part in Medical Valley in Denmark.
Anette Steenberg: Thank you so much Johanna and Guillaume and thank you for inviting me for this podcast.
I’m really excited about talking to you and I hope I can bring you a couple of insights or ideas for you and your exciting The future that lies ahead of you as leaders and the talent. We great needs in life science and other sectors as well. Well, my personal story a bit like what you already very briefly mentioned is that I have worked in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for many years, actually two decades before that.
And even after that, I’ve traveled extensively. So I would consider myself. Some of the two common themes and threats in my career and my life has been international and it’s been internationalization of especially companies, but also basic collaboration across border and international. So that’s some of the key areas that I’ve always been working with.
I have spent 15 years abroad as well. I’ve been very fortunate to study in France, uh, though, do not switch into French. I do understand most of it, but my, my memory of speaking it takes a little time, maybe a week in France, then I’ll get back to that. Um, but, uh, I truly believe that the traveling and visiting, working and living and studying in other countries has been very valuable to me.
And I’ve learned a lot from that, including from my wonderful time in France. And, uh, yeah, you asked me why I I’m here where I’m at right now. Well, it’s just, you could say another step, uh, on my path of internationalization and collaboration across borders. I have now worked for about 10 15 years within life science.
It is an extreme international business as well. So in that sense, it’s, it’s not a big surprise I ended up in that area. It’s an area that’s growing. International is becoming always more important. At the same time, We also have a lot of exciting new innovation that is good for all of us, uh, as patients, uh, and as human beings wanting to be healthy, strong and live a long, good life.
Thank you
ESCP Students: so much for your answer. And now I’d like to know, as a multiple board member and because of your career working as a CEO, which qualities do you think are necessary to be a great
Anette Steenberg: leader today? I think, of course, you need to be a strategic thinker. You need to have the long view, some clear targets on where and direction of where you’re heading.
At the same time, I also think as a leader, you, you don’t have to be the expert, but it’s very important you great at setting the right team. I think the team you have, whether it’s a small team or it’s a huge company, it’s extremely important that you’re good at setting a strong team. And what is a strong team?
Well, a strong team, of course, is experts within the areas that you are working within, but it’s also a diverse team. It’s, uh, it’s very important. It’s not the same type of people that comes out from the same mold, whether we talk diversity in gender, it could be nationality, it could be also background in terms of different education, I don’t believe the best team.
Is the team where you all graduate from the same, even if it’s a conical. But if you’re all from the same school you’re all from the same, maybe line of business, basically the same age, maybe even the same gender. I don’t believe that will make a strong team I do believe diverse team is very important.
And you as a, as a CEO, as a managing director need to be able also to dare to bring on people who are much smarter than you. Um, that’s actually the best team you can get, uh, what you need to do. Of course you need to be, you could say you are the conductor of this team. Um, and you need to be able to, to make sure a team, uh, compliments, uh, each other.
I also very much believe in being a genuine leader. Uh, this is something I have always looked for in, in the people I have, um, I have had as managers. It’s, it’s a quality I really, uh, respect and appreciate. And I try to be that. Being a genuine leader is also a leader that sometimes makes very difficult and very unpopular decisions, and you have to be willing to take that.
I do believe people rather have a genuine and honest answer and direction than being unpleasantly surprised at maybe an unfortunate situation. Well, that said, I would also say, uh, I believe that, um, you need to be willing to take risks and you also need to accept and be willing that sometimes you make mistakes.
Even yourself or your team, of course you need to, uh, learn from the mistakes. And of course, you shouldn’t be making too many mistakes, but if you don’t make mistakes, you don’t take risk, and I don’t believe you, you develop, you’re not innovative enough. And I, I truly believe in most line of businesses today.
You need to be able to be innovative all the time to keep up and be competitive. And I actually have a little quality I learned some years back. Well, I think it’s a quality. Most people laugh at it when I say it, but with my team members over the past at least decade, I have always made sure once every quarter, um, we make the mistake of the quarter.
Competition and we also have an annual competition of the mistake or mishap, misunderstanding of the year and we celebrate it. So it’s a, it’s a little funny why you should celebrate mistakes and failure, but actually from when you look back where you’ve learned the most is typically where you made a mistake.
And if you deep dive into that, that’s actually when you learn. You don’t always necessarily learn a lot from successes. Successes are great and that’s what we should have the most of. But if you want to keep on developing, it’s important that you, uh, you also celebrate your mistakes and learn from it.
That means you are also, um, you’re willing to talk about it and you’re not afraid. And it’s, it’s not a, it’s not a shame to make mistakes. That just basically means that you are active.
ESCP Students: Thank you so much for that insightful answer. Uh, you’ve had so far a very successful and busy career. Uh, which project do you think challenged you the most as a leader? And how did you manage
Anette Steenberg: to achieve your goals? Um, I don’t know if I can find a specific project. I think one of my biggest challenges and one of my biggest learnings is to understand that people don’t necessarily respond the same to the same kind of management or leadership style.
As mentioned, I have worked many years abroad and I’m a dame, but working, for instance, in the U. S. They have a different, um, uh, leadership style and employees also want a different leadership style from the manager. And I believe that this management leadership style I came with was the right one just to find out that that was not necessarily successful to Americans.
That was a very big eye opener for me. Um, and I’ve learned a lot from it. It’s something I can still, uh, get surprised that I keep on making some of these mistakes. I believe, uh, it could be cultural differences. It could also just be even within the same culture that people respond differently to.
Different, uh, to leadership styles. It’s all going back to get who said it’s a cultural differences about, you know, power distance, uh, individualism versus collectivism, uh, avoiding uncertainty, um, time perception. So it’s, uh, even now I’m working in a Swedish organization. And for you in France. Or elsewhere, you might think Scandinavians are all alike, and in many ways we are, but in many ways we are
not. And there’s a different style of collaboration, and you need to understand what the perception is. I think that’s where I as a manager has learned a lot, and I’ve made a lot of mistakes. I really made a lot of mistakes. I think one curious one was in the U. S. in the Danish leadership side, we have a very flat hierarchy, which is a little different from what I remember from France.
You have a bigger power distance in France. So I maybe the French is closer to the U. S. I’m not sure. But in Denmark, it’s very flat and people get very, very upset if managers. Micro managing, uh, other, uh, people. Basically, they just want to be left alone. They don’t want their leader to interfere in their work.
Um, and that works in Denmark. But, uh, what I learned in the U. S., they actually enjoyed me interfering, um, or checking up on them, as I felt it was. And, um, and they thought that… Because I didn’t do it, it meant that, um, I wasn’t interested in what they were doing. And for me, it was just the opposite idea. I thought if I meddled too much, I would be annoying them and taking their initiative and independence away from them.
And they perceived it as me not being interested in them. So that’s just an example of my perception was totally wrong. And, um, Yeah, I learned a lot from that. And I truly believe that that is something I keep on learning from even today, but it’s something I’m very aware of. Another challenge is, of course, when you reach my age and experience, you’ve had a lot of challenges and failures and downtime.
And that, I believe, is also areas where I’ve learned a lot from, and it has been made me stronger. You have this saying that what you don’t die for, you, you, you, you get stronger. And, and I definitely believe that’s true. It’s not fun when it’s happening, but in the long run, I believe that, um, you cannot go through life that’s both professionally or personally without having bumps in the way.
Sometimes those bumps are harder than others. But if you, uh, if you really dive into it, that’s also where you grow the most. It’s from learning from that and getting up afterwards. So I would say persistence is one of the, um, resilience. Something I, I believe strongly in. It’s not easy. But I think it’s necessary if you want to, uh, to move up the ladder.
Yeah, it’s not a popularity context.
ESCP Students: Yes, that’s very true. Thank you so much. Uh, the last question I had for you today was, uh, what should leaders, today’s leaders should focus on for the
Anette Steenberg: future? I was going to say you. And what I mean by that is talent. I really believe talent is key. Uh, it’s about what attract talents.
It’s also about what rate retains talents. Uh, you, the young generation in, in general, now I’m generalizing, but I still believe it’s pretty much true of also what I know from France is that you are much more purpose driven than your parents. Your parents and even the older generation were maybe more focused on how much money they can bring.
I know there’s still a lot of young people being focused on that, but I think being purpose driven, wanting to have a work life balance. is, uh, is important. And if we as employees, uh, do not, uh, are not aware of that, we have, we, we will have an issue. So I really believe it’s one of the focuses we should have.
That also includes the, the open mindedness, the inclusiveness, the diversity, as I mentioned before. Uh, so I believe that, uh, talent is definitely my number one and number two, and then I strongly believe in collaboration. Uh, I, I believe in, in growing the pie. I believe that if one and one, that makes more than two.
So, and that doesn’t matter whether it’s collaboration internally at a workplace or it’s nationally between maybe even national competitors or it’s internationally. Between competitors, I do believe collaborating makes you stronger also individually. So, but that’s not a, that’s not a change I think it’s always been like that, and I think it will continue being like that, but otherwise.
Challenge you guys. Thank
ESCP Students: you very much, Annette. Now I’d like to jump to another section of the podcast. I will give you one word and want to get your reaction. So the first word here is
Anette Steenberg: leadership.
Yeah, well, um, I would like a role model, just one word. You are just, you can say
ESCP Students: a couple of words as you want.
Anette Steenberg: I, I believe it’s important leadership that you show role models, and it doesn’t have to be yourself. I believe, though, a leader should be able to be a leader so lead the team and also make the difficult choices and do the hard work themselves, though I think it’s, it’s, it’s also very much this, I mentioned earlier, being a conductor.
Setting the right team, not necessarily being the expert, but being the expert in setting the right team and letting the team basically do the work for you. But, um, yeah, being a conductor.
ESCP Students: Thank you very much. The second word is innovation.
Anette Steenberg: For me, innovation equals the future. It equals what we have to live from and off.
In the future, um, especially in our part of the world, we cannot compete on salaries. We can compete on our brains and our in ability to innovate. So, um, so I believe it’s a collaboration. It’s, uh, the necessity for countries like France and, and also Denmark and Sweden to, uh, to, to develop and evolve. Thank you
ESCP Students: very much.
The third word is
Anette Steenberg: Denmark. Mm hmm. Well, when you say that, the first thing I think of is our flag, uh, but, but otherwise it’s, um, it’s a… I’ll see if I can remember this, uh, there’s a poem. It’s a famous Danish poet called Piet Hein. And, um, he has a, I’ll see if I can remember, it says, uh, it’s one of my favorite.
Denmark seen from foreign land seems like but a grain of sand. Denmark, as we Danes conceive it, is so big you won’t believe it. But let us finally compromise about Denmark’s proper size.
Since we are something about, uh, smaller than we at all. But basically what it says is that we are a tiny country. But we believe we are much more important than we are at the same time. We have a certain level of humbleness. So we work hard and we really are striving to become better. And we do that through collaboration.
So, um, yeah, I think it’s, uh, it’s, uh, it’s ambivalent in the way that, uh, we are a tiny country that’s trying to make an effect on the world. We’re very international. It goes back to the Vikings. Denmark is a wonderful little country, but we would be nothing without the world around us. We are so dependent on the world around us.
We, uh, we are wealthy and competitive because we’re good. at collaborating. These days, we do it in a more friendly way than what the Vikings did, and I hope we can continue doing that. Thank
ESCP Students: you very much for that. Uh, and finally, the last word is spread love in your organization.
Anette Steenberg: Oh, I think it’s so exciting.
I’m, I’m, uh, I don’t know enough about you, but, uh, when I learned about you, I thought it was such a great initiative, what you’re doing. So, uh, and I love the, the, The word, the title. So I wish you all the best and I would love to follow you, uh, going onwards. And I, and I look forward to, to meeting a lot of schools, also a lot of students from your school soon, uh, later this month.
ESCP Students: Yes, very soon. Thank you very much. Do you have any final words or advice for aspiring leaders in the pharmaceutical industry or just for anyone looking to excel in their roles as a leader in their own organization?
Anette Steenberg: Um, maybe a little bit of the repetition, as I mentioned, you need to be able to set the right team.
You need to be less, um, less focused on yourself. You have to be humble, but you also have to be bold. And that might be an opposite, but it can go hand in hand. You need to be humble in the way that you cannot do it on your own. You need other people. You need to set the right team. But you also need to be bold in showing the way and also allowing for mistakes.
Even your own. Don’t hide it. Share it and, uh, and if you do it, then other people would do it, too. And you can grow together.
ESCP Students: Thank you very much, Annette, for your time today and for such an inspiring discussion.
Anette Steenberg: You’re most welcome. I hope you’ll have a great day and I look forward to seeing some of you soon in Denmark.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening. We have such an important responsibility as leaders of today to plant the seeds for the leaders of tomorrow.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to Spread Love and Organizations podcast. We have such an important responsibility as leaders of today to plant the seeds for the leaders of tomorrow. Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
This episode is very special. In partnership with ESCP Business School, I’ll be giving the mic to students, our leaders of tomorrow, to discuss with incredible healthcare executives about their journeys and leadership beliefs.
ESCP Students: Hi everyone, we are Rita and Mohamed, two students at ESCP Business School in Paris, and we are delighted to be here today and welcome Jean François Brochard, General Manager of Roche France and Director and Chairman of the LEEM, which is a French organization and pharmaceutical companies. With over 25 years of experience in the pharmaceutical industry, Jean François held various leadership positions in both developed and emerging markets in Europe, North America, and Asia.
Before joining Roche France in 2018, he was the president of GSK France. He’s also the director and chairman of the Gross Regulation and Conventional Policy Commission at the LEEM. And in this podcast, we will discuss his career, leadership, and the future of the pharmaceutical industry in France and worldwide.
So, Jean François, thank you for being with us today. You’re welcome, Mohamed. This is, this is really a pleasure to share some of that. Hopefully the insights and experience that can benefit others. So, okay. Let’s start with a few questions if you want. So the first one, can you please tell us first a little about the major steps in your Kariv path and what marked you the most before you arrived at your current position?
Jean-François Brochard: Well, thanks. Thanks for the question about the career path. I think there’s always a lot of fantasy about career paths. So you asked me a very direct question, Mohamed, about, you know, what were the key steps? I think, you know, I must say, I, you know, I’ve been, I’ve been very, very lucky. Uh, I think my first job was actually in Mexico and I was I was thrown out of my, uh, native country.
Uh, I had to learn a language. I had to learn a different culture. And I, I think this, this has been the, one of the biggest opportunity in, in opening my eyes and, uh, expanding my horizons, you know, reaching in this, you know, At the time it was like 21 million people living in Mexico and, and, you know, and you had to make new friends and you had to learn the language.
And that was just, you know, I was what, 24 at that time and it was just fantastic. So I think there’s a bit of luck. And then I think I grew a passion for, uh, international career. And I had the chance to work in many different continents now and countries in the US, uh, in the Far East, in the Philippines, and then later in Europe, uh, in, in Belgium and Italy for a long time.
So I think one of the key thing is really, uh, the, the chance that I had was really to, uh, to have access to, uh, those opportunities. I created some, but most of, most of those opportunities were offered to me. And, uh, I think. You know, you don’t, I, one thing that I did is I did not overthink, uh, those opportunities.
I, I just jumped on them. Maybe it was, I was, uh, also, uh, I didn’t have a family, uh, uh, at a younger age, and that’s probably easier to move from, uh, I don’t know, the U S the Philippines and, and back and forth. But, uh, so I really think that, you know, you, you need to go and then, you know, learn and grow. Uh, so that, that’s one, one thing.
I think the international dimension would be my first answer. The second thing is, um, I was also very lucky to, to have a few, uh, very inspiring leaders, very inspiring mentors that were, you know, both I think integrating Uh, what I would call in French, uh, exigence, which means demanding, but in a positive way, and then also a lot of support.
So they were integrating both those things, you know, being very supportive and being very demanding. And, you know, they were also, uh, giving, you know, me a lot of trust, at least I think of two of them. Which were amazing in, in both as in all models, you know, the way, you know, I would, I would pick up a lot of their good habits and the things that I really liked about them, the way they were, they were visionary about the business, the way they were supportive with the teams.
And I think, you know, having great mentors is a good thing up to a certain level, actually, where I think that, uh, if in your career, you don’t feel. You have a strong mentors around you. It’s worth asking the question, Should I should I should I look for something different? And actually, I had to ask myself this this question a couple of times in my career, and one of the learnings I eventually did move to another job.
But I think I could have, I could have moved, I could have moved earlier. There’s, I don’t think there’s any experience which is worth, I would say, bearing, you know, a bad, a bad boss. So, you know, you, we, we need good mentors and sometimes, you know, they’re not your bosses, other people, but you need to have.
inspiring surrounding people, uh, if you want to go. So, you know, those are the two things. And then, you know, keep an open mind on things, you know, when, when you’re thrown out in, in the Philippines at what 20, you know, plus something, and you don’t know anything about, you know, being a general manager, but you, you ask to, to, to be one, don’t try to pretend just, you know, at least, uh, show that you’re, you’re eager to learn that, uh, you know, you work hard and you’re, you’re willing to also.
Uh, show some candor in your relationships. And eventually, you know, you, you, you, you, you manage through the, the content of the holes and, and you find your ways, you know, uh, with, with your uniqueness, this is what, you know, happened to me in the Philippines. Uh, and that was, that was always, you know, great, great, uh, experiences.
So I think those two things are, are, are the most important international and, and there’s probably much more things to it. Uh, especially, you know, the, the, the, the, I think what I kept about all those years outside of my native country is really the relationships that I, I, I built and that’s one and marvelous people.
Uh, and when they were not marvelous, I try either to adapt or change. And, uh, I think the other thing is also the. The chance to get to know another, another culture. Uh, and I think it, it make, makes you realize, you know how lucky you are, uh, at least in my native country, where you have, uh, free schools, free health, and you know, you come when you realize that people either in the Philippines or Mexico don’t have any of this and, and must fight very hard to get decent health or decent education.
Uh, you realize how lucky we are in some of our Western countries, and, you know, this gives probably more value to those great things. And I think it makes also me more prone to actually make sure that, you know, we preserve those extraordinary things we have in a country like France, like free education and free health.
ESCP Students: Okay, thank you very much for this interesting and complete answer. So, let’s move on to our second question. So, have you always wanted to be a leader? And do you think this is something that is innate or that can be built from scratch? Once again, thanks Mohamed for that very insightful question about, you know, either, you know, born or made leadership.
Jean-François Brochard: I think it’s a bit of both, actually, you know, I think we need to oppose both of those visions. You asked me the question directly, so I’m going to answer you directly. I don’t know if I always wanted to be a leader, but at some point I realized that at least trying to be one, trying to be effective and, and bring, bring people along.
So this is what, you know, leadership is about. Uh, not against, but with them is something that actually, you know, got me a lot of satisfaction and, and, you know, uh, and I felt good about, you know, bringing people along and, you know, having them on board on, on projects. So I was, I think, so you have to, you have to vibrate if you want, uh, to the signals of good leadership of, uh, at least effective leadership, if you don’t vibrate.
If you’re more interested in tasks or I don’t know, working on Excel sheets or doing whatever. Uh, I think it’s okay. You know, it’s not like, uh, leadership is more important than, you know, being an expert. Uh, and sometimes you don’t have to oppose those two things, but I, I think, yes, you have, you have to feel, you know, leadership is kind of right for you.
And both in difficult times, because obviously sometimes, you know, it hurts when, when you feel you’re not effective as a leader, you, you, you missed, I don’t know, you missed a take out with a, with one of your colleague, you, you actually, you thought that, uh, uh, the, the intervention you just made with your team actually was kind of, uh, I don’t know, not very engaging and this happened.
So. Uh, you both need to be stimulated by the things, you know, you want to improve, but also satisfied, uh, when, when you see signals, when you capture signals that, you know, whatever, uh, you’re doing is actually engaging people and they either, you know, uh, get more excited about their role or, you know, they want to engage more.
So you, you have to kind of like it. I think that this will be the first thing, the second thing, you know, the second part of your question about is it innate or is it something you can, you can actually work on it, as I said, you know, let’s not oppose those two things. I think if you are wired kind of to be, to, to be a leader, to vibrate to, uh, the, the good signals of leadership, I think it facilitates things.
But then I think there’s a lot of, uh, Things you can work. Uh, giving you an example. Maybe there’s something I was not doing very consistently at the beginning of my career. I was not, you know, at least sending strong signals that I was wanting feedback, including I would say challenging feedback. So I thought I had it all and you know, I didn’t need anyone to tell me, you know, what to improve.
And I think obviously this was a mistake because you need, you need, you need the looks of others and you can’t just see things through your own lens. And I think with the time I just opened to the idea that maybe people have a lot to tell me and a lot to teach me actually. So this is, this is one thing you need to be open to, uh, open to this.
And then also I think, You may do this in a very structured way. And most of the companies that provide you most of the tools, you know, the feedback, the 360s and, you know, some, some very structured models that helps you, you know, maybe grab some realities. And also all the. And if you don’t have the theory behind, uh, then you need to put this into practice.
But, you know, so I, I think you, once again, you need to look at those tools and those opportunities with a very open mind. There’s, there’s nothing to lose actually. And, and, you know, maybe sometimes it will hurt a little bit because some of the feedback say, well, you’re not very inspiring in this instance, or, you know, what you said did not really, I don’t know, help me in my job, or I think you can give me more support, but there’s nothing you can lose.
You, you, you, you just. The only thing you can, you can do is, you know, getting better at being a leader, uh, receiving this feedback. And I think, you know, I think probably I would say what differentiates, you know, um, improving leaders and, you know, playing leaders is precisely this ability to, to listen to feedback and be open to feedback, but, but not only to.
to hear, but actually to act and leverage this feedback as something you can, you can, you can actually, uh, actually change. So, you know, I received a lot of feedback in my, uh, in my career and when I started and I started, you know, I think I, I, I, due to this feedback, I evolved also from I would say self centered leader is maybe not, you know, the exact, uh, way I would put it, but that’s what comes to my mind, at least, you know, kind of self centered to something, which to something which looks more like, and I would say, uh, uh, team conscious and maybe collective centered, uh, leadership, uh, along those years.
And the, the, the, the way I grew this, I would say collective leadership is really through, through, through listening to feedback. And then, you know, reasoning and exchanging with colleagues and also looking at, you know, leaders that were doing this very well, uh, mentors back to the mentor question. So, you know, to your question, Mohammed, I think this is really about, uh, about both, you know, uh, and I, I think there’s always.
Always an improvement margin, you know, whatever the level you start from, uh, there’s always, but you need to enjoy it. You know, you need, you need to, you need to love coming to a room with 200 people and say, you know, I’m going to, I’m going to try to inspire them. I’m going to try to share some, some, something with them, which actually will help.
them to actually thrive. If you don’t like this, well, it’s going to be much harder, but, but there are, I think, many types of leadership too. And there may be less, you know, I don’t know, inspiring leadership, uh, more intellectual ones. I don’t know, but, uh, you know, I think you need to like it and you need to be open to, to, to progress.
Those are the two concepts that I would keep.
ESCP Students: Well, thank you again for sharing your different ideas on this topic. Thank you again. And, uh, now I will let the mic to Rita for the next step. Okay, so moving forward to question number three, how to maintain the commitment and motivation of your team in a sector where obtaining result and progress is a very long and uncertain process, specifically in moment of transformation or reinvention of the company.
Jean-François Brochard: Uh, thank you, Rita. For if I had the answer, I think it would be a noble price for leadership. I don’t think this exists, but we may want to invent this. Uh, the truth is, uh, I don’t know if there’s a recipe for this, uh, maintaining engagement. I think there’s a few, uh, there’s a few, I would say elements that would definitely help this, at least in my experience.
The first one is, I think you need you need to keep true to to the somehow the vision if you want the the inspiring elements and honestly, they can’t be 25 of them or you know, they need to be a few, a few, a few when you do a transformation. I think you need you need to be able to articulate the why of your transformation or the why you need to embark on a kind of a difficult journey.
in a very, you know, concise and simple way, you know, what are the two, three, four elements that you really want to change. And, um, you know, to give you a practical example, uh, when we, we had a very deep, uh, transformation, uh, within Roche. A few months ago, a few years ago, and it was really about rewiring the company, uh, from, from, you know, top to bottom, if you want.
And there was actually four principles that we wanted to, to materialize in the future that were not materialized now. So we wanted to have a more. Engaging partnership like relationships with our customers. We wanted to have a more fluid way of allocating resources in the company. We wanted to, uh, leverage digital, um, uh, more, uh, effectively.
And four, we wanted to start with the need in the market, the need from our customers. So you see four elements, not 25, just four of them. It’s, it’s maybe already too much. And we kept on, you know, like four, if you want both stars that would help us. Navigate through it. And I remember even in difficult times, like the teams were feeling a little bit, you know, this is too much and there’s a lot of change we need to go through.
And also, you know, uh, work force constant relationships where people are saying, that’s a lot of layoffs for, you know, this, you know, we were constantly, I was, Uh, able to constantly remind the why we are doing things. So this is one element is really, you know, kind of, you know, let’s, let’s remind us why we do things.
And if you can’t answer the question, why I think this will, this will demotivate your teams because they say what, you know, Uh, and the good thing about being clear about the why people can also position themselves from the beginning about, you know, do I want to embark in this or not? And I, I, we had a few people, not few, but you know, some actually said at the beginning, you know what, we’d rather work in a traditional way.
So we can actually leave the company. And I was absolutely all right. And I think at least, you know, engaging with why helps you, uh, not only. You know, uh, while you are transforming and when, you know, some, sometimes the weather is a bit rough, uh, but also at the beginning in, in having people, you know, asking the key questions, are you, are you up to this?
You know, that’s kind of the initial, initial contract. So that’s one thing. Uh, then the other elements, I think it’s about, uh, how would I, you know, I would call it proximity.
It’s being close to topics, it’s being close to problems, it’s being close to people, more importantly. You know, it’s about being there, especially when the times are rough. Because people will want to ask you a few questions, they will want to, you know, have a look at you, whether they feel you are still engaged.
Even because, you know, in those in those transformations are always rough times always and I think you and sometimes it’s okay to say, You know what? I don’t really have the answer, but I’m here. You know, I’m here to support and you know, we’ll find we’ll find a solution together on you always do eventually.
So I think it’s really about, you know, getting this this very close to, uh, to people and topics to understand And although also there’s one thing, you know, just to give you an example, we did one thing with the, um, uh, with, with the leadership team in the French affiliate of OSH, where we had this, uh, we, we called it, if you want the changing rooms, uh, so it’s like, you know, when you do collective sports, uh, whatever, this is usually have a moments in the, in, in the changing room where you can tell things, you know, very open hearts.
And, you know, so we didn’t have any, uh, obviously agenda for, for those moments. They, they lasted about half an hour from, from time to time. And we were, you know, sitting in a very comfortable sofas and we were throwing, you know, the things that would affect us. Uh, and amazing things actually emerged because at some point we realized that one of our colleagues.
We’re actually bearing most of the weight of the pain in the change. And, you know, it allowed, you know, the team to redistribute a little bit this, this pain and actually support our colleague just because, you know, we had, we had a safe space. There’s this changing room space. where you could actually actually, you know, talk with an open heart.
So those are the, you know, little tricks, uh, that, that helped, you know, maintain the, uh, the, the, the team very much engaged. But I think what eventually keeps the, um, the team, you know, engaged, you know, in, in times of transformation and overall is the feeling that they’re very useful. You know, as long as you can set up a context and an environment for people including you where they feel.
They are useful, you know, they will thrive. And obviously, you know, you need to, you need to have more than decent compensation, incentive systems, and all those things are useful. But I think the most impactful one is really, you know, Making sure that, you know, uh, you, you, you ask them, you know, things where they feel very, very useful, useful for others, useful for the mission and useful for themselves in terms, in terms of, uh, personal development.
When you go through a Uh, transformation. You learn, you learned a lot about your own leadership. You learned a lot about and this, you know, really feeds, you know, the self confidence and, and the, uh, the, the degree of engagement of, uh, of the team. So those are the themes. Maybe I’m not super structured here in my answer, but those are the key thing, you know, the, why the proximity and, you know, feeling useful.
Uh, there’s probably many other things. I’m sure they are super theorists. Of this, I wrote full books about it, but as a spontaneous answer, this is what I would say.
ESCP Students: Thank you for sharing this, and we’ll move forward for a question about what, uh, what are for you the biggest challenge of today, both in leadership and in the pharmaceutical industry, and how do we overcome them?
Jean-François Brochard: I’ll start with the easy one, which is the challenge, you know, in the industry and then I’ll go back to, I would say, challenges in my leadership, if you want. I, um, I think the biggest challenge, you know, working in the industry is really the challenge of, of true and sincere partnership with our, with our stakeholders.
And this is maybe more true in some markets. Uh, it’s likely to be the case in France. I’ve lived in other markets in Belgium. It’s, it’s a bit different, for example. Uh, there’s a, it’s easier to set up, you know, uh, sincere, uh, partnerships, but in Mark, in some markets, it’s more difficult. So I think there is, there’s this thing about, we have, we have an image of an industry that makes a lot of money to some extent.
You know, it’s true, but we are delivering also huge amounts of values to a patient journalists across, you know, uh, the world. So I think it’s about how can we find, you know, the means to, to establish how do, how, how can we leverage our leadership externally to actually, you know, help our stakeholders believe in, in, in, you know, co writing things.
Together for improving health in one particular country. And sometimes we’re very much considered as a, you know, supplier if you want. So the lowest the cost, the better for them. And it’s truly hard to make them, you know, understand that this is much more nuanced and systemic and holistic than they think.
And the pharma industry, you know, is also a promoter of a, of a healthy, you know, knowledge economy. Uh, you know, it’s about, you know, uh, also working with the, uh, uh, academic centers across the world and developing knowledge. And this is, this is huge as a value and they don’t necessarily recognize, you know, those things.
So it’s, it’s really about establishing this, uh, how do you do this from a leadership point of view? Once again, you start with the, why you try to, you know, uh, be sincere. And you also need to be clear about, yes, you know, we also have some economic, uh, expectations, you know, uh, investing in research is, is a huge investment and, you know, we can’t have, uh, the U S market, uh, paying for, you know, uh, the world innovations, if you want, which is kind of the case today, maybe two third of the, uh, of the economic proceeds of, uh, of a new drug is coming from the U S at least in the last 15 years.
So, you know, we, we, we, we, we, we need to have, you know, to help our stakeholders realize that Paying the lowest price, you know, is not sustainable, you know, if you want to continue to have this, uh, uh, innovations, you know, therapeutic innovations and diagnostics, innovations, they need to evolve. So this is, you know, as far as the external, the pharma industry is concerned, I think this is, this is the challenge.
And I think. One of the ways to resolve those challenges is to make sure also, and Mohamed made reference to some of the responsibilities I have in the National Pharma Association, is also trying to align our colleagues in different, many other companies. And to the same kind of, uh, approach, but, you know, being a partner to the system.
And, you know, most of them are, you know, and they, they think alike, but it’s, it’s about the lining this now. It’s not, not just one company that can, that can do it. It’s a whole industry. I can start moving and also adapting their commercial models, adapting their partnership models, if you want. Uh, so that this becomes big, it becomes possible, but, you know, as soon as long as Our R& D organizations will continue to produce amazing, you know, therapeutic innovations.
I think we will have, you know, the necessary conditions to actually, you know, make this partnership work in the future. Now, you also asked me about my personal challenges in leadership, and I started by saying that I welcome, I welcome, uh, feedback and challenge. So, you know, I hope I have a good answer to this, uh, to this one.
I think the, um, the, uh, the key challenge or the key things that I would, I would, I would like to continue to improve is really about this, uh, being a systemic leader by systemic leader. Uh, it’s not about the leader of the produce, uh, performance or leader produced engagements. It’s really about a leader that produces systemic value, value for the company you work for, value for the people you work with, value for the system, the health system you work in, and value for the, you know, political world that’s around you, you know, what I said earlier about the knowledge economy.
So this is, this, so It’s not only about being focused on your team and, you know, making sure that, you know, they thrive, uh, they are engaging, they are motivated, but it’s about also linking this with the external world and your corporation. Because you could feel that you are autonomous in an affiliate and to some degree you are, but you know, you have to integrate those dimensions, you know, the society.
Uh your affiliate if you want and you’re the corporate and I think it’s about finding ways to be effective and navigate through through all of this Sometimes it’s easy. It’s easy. It’s easy because everything is aligned you know the interest of your system is the one of your affiliate and one of your corporate and you kind of You know, it’s like in sailing when your, when your wind is coming from the side, that’s kind of easy sailing.
And sometimes, you know, corporate and the affiliate and, and, and, you know, the, the local decision makers, you know, are not aligned and, you know, you need to, you need to find ways to, uh, to establish, you know, You know the partnership also, you know, say, you know, say clearly the things that needs to be improved The things you’re willing to put on the table and the things that you do you are demanding, uh that they improve so Most of my time is actually more on this kind of situation where you have to to manage through a bit of conflicting Priorities here or there But
uh, this is You know one I would say one of the key challenges making sure that what you do, you know work systemically and not just you know in your team or you just You don’t just pride yourself because you know, you know, you you inspire with your people and uh, that’s okay Uh, so and you need to do I think you need to do uh, you need to integrate Um, i’m not sure.
I like the word balance, but it’s more integrating those things. It is making them, you know, coherent one and another so this is Uh, yeah, what I’m I think if I can get much better at this, you know, I would be very happy. It’s very clear.
ESCP Students: Thank you. So now I would like to go to another section. We’ll give you one word and want to get your reaction about leadership.
Jean-François Brochard: About leadership. I think this is really what, what, what, what, what makes, you know, Miracle possible. I think this ability to, uh, to bring larger group of people, you know, do something which is meaningful for another group of people, uh, by leading them, by giving them the vision, by providing them the tools, by providing them the environments and the context, you know, this is.
This is just great. You can achieve amazing things. We can, we can solve huge problems, you know, like health problems, like, you know, people are dealing with, you know, difficult lives and you can just by, uh, kind of, you know, uh, this ability to lead, you know, different groups of people actually make this happen.
Uh, but leadership is never. I think eventually it’s never, it’s always about one individual if you want, but, but it’s always so interdependent. So we are so connected with the others that, uh, you know, attributing, you know, the quality of leadership to one individual, I think is a mistake. And it’s really about, uh, You know, working, you know, as a network and, you know, we are very, so much interdependent.
One of the things I know you asked me one word and I’m making a long, a long, a long speech here, a long answer here. But, uh, I think there’s a traditional leadership journey, I think is less and less about. Myself and more and more about ourselves. I think this is this is a natural direction I think I see many other leaders and that are sharing the same kind of experience.
It’s less about yourself It’s more about you know, the system and we’re trying to improve for others.
ESCP Students: Yes about innovation innovation, um, I think it’s it’s it’s both a um, well innovation is both a blessing and a curse Uh, it could achieve amazing things. Uh, like look at what we’re doing in health.
Jean-François Brochard: Bringing therapeutic innovations that, you know, are fundamentally, you know, making people live longer, live in better conditions. You know, sometimes actually, you know, garish from, from some of the disease they suffer. Uh, look at, you know, the promises of, uh, gene therapy is massive. So, you know, it’s, it’s both amazingly, uh, potent, but at the same time, You know, it’s, it’s, if you don’t, uh, anticipate some of the consequences of it, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s becoming a bit of a curse and, you know, look, look at, you know, we can have a long debate about, you know, global warming.
And, uh, so, but you know, the, the, the scientific evidence is there and some of the reasons why we are in this situation and, you know, the, the, the destruction of, you know, complete natural ecosystems is because of innovation too. So I think is, you know, innovation without wisdom, I think brings chaos. And I really think that we need to think very thoroughly, especially companies like us that, you know, you know, put, uh, innovation, uh, to the forefront of our mission, making sure we understand the consequences and how can we actually continue to innovate?
Without paying such a high price on global systems and, you know, I’m thinking about, you know, global warming as one, I think the, the reduction in biodiversity is, is, is one other. And I think we have a responsibility. We can’t just say, you know, we, we, we, we try to bring innovation at any cost. So once again, you know, to maybe to, to, to make a more concise answer about the innovation, it’s really, you know, uh, you know.
Use wisdom so that it does not become a curse. But you know, you keep the blessing. So about the general management, what about general management? Yes. Um, I think we need general manager. Now I’m gonna be a bit promoting here, but you know, I think this is, you know, you, you, and whatever it is, whether you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a plant, whether it’s, you know, an affiliate, whether, whatever, whatever it is, you need the general manager.
You need, you need kind of a, I believe in incarnated leadership. So, you know, it’s about people. So I’m fine. Yes. When I’m walking into the, into, you know, the office in Paris, it’s okay. They see me as, Oh, you know, yes, he’s kind of, he’s our leader. And hopefully I’m up to that expectation. And some days I am sometimes some, some days I’m, I’m less that’s okay.
But, you know, I think it’s okay. You know, you have to kind of, uh. Uh, be at ease with the idea that people will look at you and say, you know, you know, you, you, you have a responsibility to kind of help us, you know, look at, you know, what’s right. You know, what’s what’s the right direction? What’s the right mission?
What’s the right vision? It’s okay. So you need you need this and it’s to be incarnated. It can’t be something that I don’t know. An email you send through whatever channel or, you know, on an app and suddenly, you know, you become, you know, a leader, I think it’s incarnated, you know, people need to see you, you need to be able to articulate this, you know, drinking a coffee with one person or you need to articulate this in front of a thousand people telling them the same story.
Jean-François Brochard: So general management, general management is absolutely useful to, to, to companies and it needs to be incarnated. Yes, and finally about the spread love in organizations. Spreading love into organization. I, uh, that’s a, that’s an interesting one. I, uh, so the thing that would be many meanings to the world, uh, love, but I think there’s something that has to do, you know, the, the, the Greeks had actually three names, uh, for this.
Which I think is interesting. We only have one in English, only have one in French and many languages. We only have one. I don’t know about, you know, many, I don’t know, Far East languages, but the point is that there’s different ways of, so, uh, I think here we are dealing about, I think the essence of love.
Is this ability to, uh, wish well for others without necessarily being recognized or, you know, being, you know, incentivized for it. This is what, you know, love is all about. And there’s, there’s, there’s something around, you know, it’s okay to, uh, I think if we can spread that kind. Of, uh, attitude. If you want that kind of leadership that you know, as long as we do well, even though sometimes we are not recognized, that’s okay.
You know, if companies if systems can actually spread this kind of love, this is fantastic. At the same time, Rita, I think, you know, we shouldn’t be also thinking that you can manage, uh, you know, the way you love your family, for example. Is one thing and companies can’t, or I think it would be a mistake to manage a company in the way you, I don’t know, you know, you deal with your family.
Uh, so it doesn’t mean you don’t need to be generous. You don’t need to be supportive. You don’t need to be challenging, but I think it’s different, different orders. Of love, if you want. So, uh, my answer would be, you know, spread the love that actually, you know, do, do, do good for people and don’t expect to too much, you know, say return or recognition on it.
So this, this, this is, you know, what I, what I would say about spreading love. Perfect. Thank you. Many final words of wisdom for aspiring leaders in the pharmaceutical industry.
Yeah, maybe it’s, it’s really around, um, you know, think system, think, think partnership. This is not about, you know, going on revenues only. This is really about making sure that, you know, what we do has a systemic impact and a positive one, you know, on society. Uh, so rethinking also the way we engage with, with our stakeholders in a way that, uh, you know, we, yes, we improve patients life, but we also improve systems and, you know, we are conscious about.
You know, some of the constraints that our health systems or our political system have, and we can’t be blind to this. So I think it’s, you know, if I had one advice or, you know, maybe an invitation more than an advice, it’s about, you know, really think systemically, open, open your, your, your guts, your hearts, your brains.
To, to something that is, you know, in partnership in nature, you know, find the sweet spot about, you know, not only, uh, win yourself, but, you know, make sure that the system also wins because otherwise, you know, it’s going to be unbalanced and, you know, it’s, it’s going to lead to either you having a bad reputation.
And this is what happened to the pharma industry, to be honest. And, you know, let’s, let’s make sure that, you know, we, we deal with another, Uh, era here, you know, but more, you know, trusted partner era rather than just, you know, being predators of resources in their systems.
Yes. Thank you so much, Jean Francois, again for your time and such inspiring discussion. Well, thank you, Rita, Mohamed, and Naji.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to Spread Love and Organizations podcast. We have such an important responsibility as leaders of today to plant the seeds for the leaders of tomorrow. Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
This episode is very special. In partnership with ESCP Business School, I’ll be giving the mic to students, our leaders of tomorrow, to discuss with incredible healthcare executives about their journeys and leadership beliefs.
ESCP Students: Hello, we are Sarah Boutros and Bouchra Taha, Specialized Master’s students at ESCP Business School in Paris, and we are thrilled to be joined by an outstanding, innovative leader, Marc de Garidel, CEO of Syncor Pharma, a biopharmaceutical company that develops therapies for patients with cardiovascular diseases, and recently acquired by AstraZeneca.
Marc is a graduate of a cusp. It sounded probably a leading French civil engineering school and holds a master’s degree from Thunderbird School of Global Management and an executive MBA from Harvard Business School. Mark began his career with Eli Lilly. Then in 2000, he was appointed. He was appointed general manager of Amgen’s French affiliate and progressively oversaw an increasing number of countries before heading the southern region of Amgen International.
The group’s most important vision in terms of sales in 2000 and then Mark left Amgen to become the CEO of Ipsen, where he helped transform the company by focusing on research and development and expanding Ipsen’s international presence. Under his leadership, since market value increased significantly prior to joining Syncor, Mark served as CEO of Corvidia Therapeutics, a private Boston based biotech company that was acquired by Novo Nordisk in August 2020.
In addition to that, Mark has had an extensive nonprofit responsibility as VP of Europe Pharma Association for three years, as well as chairing the French Pharma Association G5 for six years. Mark is also a recipient of the French Legion of Honor. Thank you so much for joining us today, Mark. To start, we would like to know more about you.
So can you share with us the story or the events in your past that influenced your decision to pursue your current
Marc De Garidel: career path? Well, thank you. I’m glad to be here with all of you today. Well, you know, it’s, uh, it’s hard to say what, uh, you know, when you start your career, you don’t really, uh, exactly know where you’re going to end.
And if you had told me 40 years ago that I would be a CEO of biotech companies, I would have said you’re dreaming. But I think fundamentally what, uh, you know, what drives, uh, an individual and, and, and me in particular around the, uh, pharma industry is the fact that, um, it has some characteristics, which I think are, are, uh, are wonderful.
One is, uh, you know, you develop drugs for patients and, uh, knowing, uh, what you do can make a difference in the, you know, the life of, uh, of patients, of your family members or, or people you know, is, uh, And absolutely, you know, incredible, uh, you know, luck, uh, you know, to, to, to do something, uh, you know, for, for, for these people.
So that’s one, I think two, what’s also fascinating about this industry. It’s in the middle of the, you know, of a big evolution in science where, uh, you know, innovation is coming from, from, you know, obviously a greater knowledge about how the human body functions. And it’s a fantastic adventure. To be part of projects where you are in touch with some of the, you know, the, uh, leading doctors of the world in their specialty and where again, you’re trying to, to, to develop a new therapies for, uh, you know, for, for the benefit of, of patients.
That’s, I think, you know, extremely unique, uh, intellectually. Uh, to be part of that, uh, of that adventure. And I think the third dimension to me, which has, uh, also been, uh, uh, very rewarding is this is an industry which is really global. So you have to, to work, uh, you know, in different countries. You have to, you know, uh, you know, diseases are not, uh, you know, they are, they are spread.
They are widespread. They happen in no way. In, in, in every country. So adding as a taste for, uh, no, uh, understanding, um, different geographies. And certainly now see more and more, uh, the development of the pharmaceutical industry has been in the U S with, uh, it’s innovation engine, uh, is something that I always have been attracted.
And that’s why I did my MBA in the U S and why I, you know, I enjoy, you know, being, uh, you know, in different places of the world.
ESCP Students: That’s actually very inspiring. So let’s tackle the second question. Do you believe that everyone is suited to be a CEO? Is it true that the skills and traits necessary to be successful? A successful executive can be learned, or are they something that a person is born with?
Marc De Garidel: Well, I think it’s both. You know, you have some characteristic, uh, you know, from, uh, from a C e O.
You need a lot of energy. You need, uh, you need to withstand the storm, uh, because, you know, it’s not easy to, uh, to, uh, to deal with, uh, you know, a lot of issues, uh, as you, as you progress. So you need to be very, uh, resilient. Um, so there are, I think, you know, you’re going to be very, uh, very, uh, you know, dynamic and, and, uh, because it’s just, you know, the workload of, of doing things is, is, is pretty high.
So I think these, these are things that some people do have, they have good health and unfortunately don’t have good health. Uh, you know, uh, I think you also need to have the, um, appetite, certainly if it’s in the biotech industry. Uh, to, uh, you know, to, to, to withstand the risk and to, uh, appreciate risk to leave it under a lot of uncertainty because you never know exactly what’s going to happen to, to you, to the company.
If, uh, you know, the drug fails, you know, everything can, uh, can, uh, become very difficult. So, um, So I think that, that’s the part where I would say, you know, the innate, uh, you know, part of you and how you are born, uh, plays a role. But this being said, uh, you know, it’s not, obviously, uh, it’s not enough. It’s probably a necessary condition, but it’s not enough.
And I, I think part of the, um, uh, you know, becoming a CEO is the learning as you go through. I think having a great mentor, you know, I’ve been lucky, uh, in my career. I had, uh, always great bosses and I would say that actually when, when you look for a job, that’s probably, I think to me, one of the most important thing is make sure you respect the person that is going to hire you.
And this person, you know, will help you, uh, you know, grow and, and, and, and get better. So I would say, you know, the, the environment under which you operate. Uh, I think you need to have something in the pharmaceutical industry, a constant appetite of learning because science, technology are evolving very fast and you need to be curious to, uh, you know, try to understand what’s going on.
And certainly for me, probably even more because I was not, you know, medically trained. So you have to learn, uh, you know, on the go to be credible, you know, in the field. Um, so I think, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, uh, You know, working in a, in a big organization first, at least in my case, has been, um, certainly helpful because I have learned, you know, how to operate, I’ve seen mistakes being made, I’ve seen, you know, good things being made, um, but having a big boss, also, uh, someone who can help you grow is, uh, is essential.
And then, uh, you know, what’s actually kind of, uh, I think, uh, you know, sort of, uh. I am sort of not a very traditional person because, you know, I started in order to work in big companies and the more I progressed in my career, the smaller it has become. But, but, you know, the more I have actually enjoyed the, you know, uh, um, you know, doing this, um, and, and, and, and fundamentally, you know, you need to, to, to like.
Having an impact on things. I think you, you, you have to, to, um, you know, there are some people who like to, to, to follow. There are some people who, who, uh, who like to, to, to, you know, to try to, yeah. To, to not change the world is a big, is a big, uh, is a big, uh, big, uh, probably to too, uh, to ambitious, but at is, you know, trying to impact, you know, the few things you can do.
So, um, so that’s, these are I think important for, for A C E O.
ESCP Students: That’s really impressive. And your answer actually makes the perfect transition to our next question. So as a leader, you’ve been confronted with several challenges. Can you tell us about the time where you had to make a difficult decision? And how did you ensure that you made the right choice?
Marc De Garidel: Uh, it’s, uh, Yeah, I mean, certainly when you are in, uh, in, uh, you know, in a more executive positions, you know, there are times where, uh, you have to decide, uh, you know, which path to take. And you have also to try to convince others that, uh, you know, this is the right path to go. Um, so. You know, part of that process is, is to, uh, again, to try to, uh, to figure out, you know, I’m talking obviously about big decisions, decisions that can impact.
You know, tremendously, uh, you know, the company and the people, uh, you are, uh, you, you have, uh, with you. Um, so I, you know, I use the example often about the Ibsen decision to go to the U. S. You know, when, when I was, you know, if Center was, uh, you know, a midsize company, uh, doing, uh, doing well internationally, but in the US that, you know, unfortunately failed to, uh, to, to do well with a couple of acquisitions that didn’t go too well.
So when I was confronted, you know, in the mid 2010, so it was around 2013, 14, I believe, uh, with the idea that we could launch our own drug. You know, in the U. S., the big question was, you know, Mark, is this, uh, is this realistic? We have failed until now. Uh, this could be a disaster if we fail again. And, uh, you know, and what, uh, you know, what are the consequences of that?
And I have to say, I was confronted with a lot of skeptical people in the company, including in my management team. I would say probably more than half of my management team thought I was crazy. It was a completely, uh, uh, completely crazy. But what I did is. Because first, obviously, I knew the U. S. market because I had worked in the U.
S. for a number of years. But, you know, what I did is I went with some of my, uh, with my medical director to, uh, to the number of centers in the U. S. to figure out, you know, what, what are the, the, uh, the, um, opportunities for a drug, uh, like ours. And even though we are, again, a tiny little company and we’re Novartis, which was obviously the big oncology, the sort of a big player, you know, I tried to figure out that we have a chance to succeed.
And, uh, you know, To cut a long story short, I convinced the board, I convinced, you know, my management team, this was the right thing to do, but there were a lot of risks. And, uh, I knew that, uh, if I had not been successful, it would be, you know, bad, obviously for, for, for the employees would be, but for me, because I would be fired.
But, you know, at the end of the day, we did it and, uh, you know, we became the market leader, uh, you know, we beat no artists, uh, in the U S. And, uh, that transformed ultimately Ibsen from becoming truly a global company. So these are, you know, these are decisions that, uh, the big decision, as I say, you need to take time.
Uh, you know, you need to, uh, to mull over them. You need to speak to a lot of people. You don’t have always, you know, uh, you know, the truth in yourself. So you need to consult a lot, but at the end of the day, as a leader, you have to, you know, you have to go and, uh, you know, and you have to live with the consequences of what you do.
And sometimes it’s good. Sometimes you make some mistakes. I mean, you know, a number of mistakes in my career, uh, in general, I try not to make once, but, you know, it’s part of, uh, it’s part of the adventure. You know, you can’t, you can’t succeed in doing, uh, you know, again, having an impact, a real impact on certain things.
If you don’t take some risk at some point, and that’s, I think, you know, for all of you, you know, while young and talented, you know, you have to go, you have to try and, uh, and then what I find is obviously in the US market, uh, yes, people tend to be much more forgiving, except that, uh, you know, when, when, when you try things, if you fail.
You know, you, you learn from your failure. It’s, it’s not, nothing is bad. You know, you learn, obviously you don’t want to repeat them, but you learn. And that’s part of, uh, you know, the journey to becoming a leader. So that’s the path.
ESCP Students: So, Mark, you mentioned previously having a mentor that provided guidance and support in your path to success within the pharmaceutical industry.
Could you share a story about their impact on your journey?
Marc De Garidel: Well, you know, I can give you the first example. Well, I mean, the first example was actually with Lily. I was a young, uh, young guy. I was, you know, sort of the pharmaceutical controller of the French subsidiary. And, uh, the head of Europe of India came to, uh, to do a business review.
And my boss said, you know, Mark, you’re going to present the whole of the budget presentation. And, uh, and, um, I say, well, I was a bit obviously stressed, so I prepared myself know a lot for that. And then when I did a presentation to this, uh, head of Europe, uh, you know, I think I was able to answer all the questions and I knew I was going on.
And then the person, you know, was Terrell, who became actually ultimately the c e O of, uh, of, uh, of Lilly. So, You know, he helped me, uh, you know, go relatively fast then in, uh, at leading to, to, to my start, which was obviously a great foundation for ultimately my success later on attention and so on. So these are, you know, this is just one example of, uh, of someone who, uh, you know, have me navigate, uh, in my early career in terms of, uh, you know, building the right, uh, foundation for, uh, you know, ultimately success, because, you know, if you go too fast.
So danger, you know, obviously when you are young, you want to do, you know, a lot of things. Uh, but, you know, in the pharmaceutical industry, it’s still very complex. So you want to make sure you, you, you learn, you know, the fundamentals gradually. So that again, when you are in the position of a real responsibility, you don’t make too many mistakes.
ESCP Students: We still have one more question before we jump to the next section. So what misconceptions do you think people have about the role of a CEO or executive? And how does your current job differ from your initial
Marc De Garidel: expectations? Well, probably, you know, the things that, that, uh, uh, I think the biggest change when you get to a CEO job, Compared to where you were before, before you were, you know, running a division or you were running something, uh, you know, but you were reporting to, to, to the c e o.
And when, when you become the c e o, you know, you, you, you’re the c e o. So you’re as a, you know, Ronald Reagan said the, you know, the buck stop here. So that’s, you know, ultimately you, you’re responsible. But what I think I, I fully, you know, underestimated is the fact that even if you’re c e o, you’re not the boss because you have always the boss and the boss is actually your board of director.
And, and what you have to do is to work actually extensively with a, with a board to make sure that, you know, the things that you are doing, uh, you know, the success, the failures, the things you, you know, you, you, you, you are with your board, you, you, you exchange, you learn from them, but you are very aligned with them in terms of the direction of the company.
And that’s, you know, I think that’s some, some, you know, that’s, that was to me a big, big surprise. Because I, I thought I spent a lot of time with the board, much more than I would have anticipated just running the operation.
ESCP Students: So now I would like to jump to another section. I would give you one word and want to get your reaction. The first one is innovation.
Marc De Garidel: Well, that’s a wonderful part of what we do in the, uh, the human body is extremely complex. There are unfortunately still a lot of diseases that need to be treated and, uh, Innovation is a way to, uh, to, uh, you know, to find, to try to find solutions for, for, for the patient.
So. Um, you know, innovation is accelerating, uh, you know, at a tremendous pace and being part of, uh, the process is again, is wonderful, but you can, you need to have, uh, you need to be ready to accept the failures that are associated, uh, since, uh, especially in the industry, as you know, in among 10, 000 drugs that are discovered in early stage and you want to make it, make it to the market.
So it’s a very, it’s also a very difficult, uh, you know, selective process innovation.
ESCP Students: All right. The second word is leadership.
Marc De Garidel: I think, you know, leadership, there are different ways to, to, uh, to be a leader. And, uh, I think there are different distinctions. I think, especially when you grow in your career, uh, you know, you are, you’re, you’re taught to be, to be, to, to, to be, uh, especially in the early days. You know, to be very strong technically and to be a great technician, but I think as you grow, so you’re essentially a manager.
And I think the difference between a leader and a manager is that over time, you know, you, you’re not going to do so many things yourself. You, uh, you, uh, you, you have to, to, the work needs to be done through, through your team. And, uh, you know, I do so often the analogy of the conductor of an, of a, you know, an orchestra to me, a leader is more, you know, you don’t play the music, it’s your people who play the music, but what you do is you, you know, when the music is, is kind of going wrong and you know, how to, uh, to orchestrate, so, you know, the different, uh, you know, different, uh, players, musicians, so that it rings, uh, you know, it sounds, uh, it sounds great and it’s very difficult, uh, It’s a very difficult, uh, uh, job to do.
And, uh, you know, again, multiple mistakes, but I think that’s one. And two, I think, you know, the team is so important, you know, you, you have to. You know, you have to create a team that, uh, uh, is, is, is together, is aligned so that you know, you can conquer together and you fail together. But it’s not, you know, just one person who, who can, uh, who does, uh, thing.
And, uh, you know, finding the right people, creating that environment for, uh, for, for, you know, for innovation, for success and sometimes for failure is, is one of the key attributes of, uh, of a, of a leader.
ESCP Students: So let’s move to the third word, which is biotech.
Marc De Garidel: Well, biotech is, you know, it’s a broad, uh, it’s a broad, uh, term, you know, which essentially is the, uh, industry that has been created at least initially, you know, back in, uh, by, I would say Genentech in the early, uh, you know, in the early nineties.
But it’s become symbolic of, of, of trying to exploit, you know, again, the understanding of how the human body functions to try to target, you know, more specifically some diseases or some, some things. certain things that happen in, in, uh, in diseases and to try to figure out how to circumvent that, that, uh, that, uh, that process.
And obviously it has exploded in different technologies. Obviously you have from gene therapy, cell therapy, uh, large molecules, small molecules. There are plenty of different modalities that are now, uh, being, uh, uh, exploited to, to try to, to combat, uh, you know, uh, um, you know, multiple diseases. And
ESCP Students: finally, the last one is spread love and organizations.
Marc De Garidel: Well, I think, you know, it’s part of the things that, uh, is challenging. But, you know, I, uh, you know, there is one person I really, um, admire when I was actually in the U. S. Uh, he was the, uh, coach of, uh, of, uh, a football team. His name was Lou Holtz. And he’s, uh, you know, he was with Notre Dame and he made Notre Dame the football team, one of the most successful ever in college football in the U.
S. And when, uh, you know, he’s talking, when he was talking, you can watch on YouTube actually, you know, he said, There are really three things that count if you want to be successful. One is, is, uh, you to trust the people. Two, you need to do the commitment of your people. But three, you need to care about them.
And I think the, the, um, you know, I, I think the leaders need to care about, about their, uh, you know, their, their employees. Sometimes, you know, caring doesn’t necessarily mean always, uh, You know, obviously you want to motivate them. You want to, to, uh, you know, to, to, to, to, to, to carry the company with them, but at certain times, unfortunately, caring about them is letting them know they are not in the right spot.
Maybe they’re not, you know, productive in, in, in the, uh, in where they are and they could do much better in, in a different position or, or potentially in a different company. So I think caring is absolutely critical, and that’s, I think, one of the role of the c any, uh, you know, leader manager to, to, to truly, uh, help.
Uh, you know, the employee on the person, uh, you know, as part of the organization to grow and to give them feedback and to have them grow.
So
ESCP Students: before we wrap up, do you have any final words or advice for aspiring leaders and the pharmaceutical industry or for anyone looking to excel in their role as leader? And their own organizations.
Marc De Garidel: I think, you know, one of the key things is do what you like, right? Do, do, do things you, you, you, you, you enjoy.
Because at the end of the day. That’s going to be critical, uh, for, for, for your success. It’s, it’s, you know, and don’t be worried. Don’t, don’t get worried about what people say about you and like that, not try to be meaningful to, to, to, to, uh, To, uh, to your passion. Uh, you know, do it. Learn from it. You’re going to do mistakes.
Uh, that’s okay. But, you know, do do really what you what you like to do and and don’t care too much about what the others think about you because, you know, they you’ll shine by yourself and you’ll, you know, you’ll succeed. So whatever you do.
ESCP Students: Thank you so much, Mark again for your time for this inspiring discussion.
It was really a pleasure, a pleasure to us.
Marc De Garidel: You’re welcome. Thank you so much.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to Spread Love and Organizations podcast. We have such an important responsibility as leaders of today to plant the seeds for the leaders of tomorrow. Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Karine Duquesne, Vice-President, General Manager of LEO Pharma France. Karine previously held the position of General Manager at Actelion Pharmaceuticals France, and Johnson & Johnson’s rare disease subsidiary prior to its merger with Janssen in 2020. She holds a Doctor of Pharmacy degree and has more than twenty years of experience in the pharmaceutical industry within various positions, from Medical Affairs to Head of Marketing and Sales. Karine is French and has enriched her career with international experiences in the USA within Janssen’s Global and Strategic teams in Immunology and Neuroscience. Karine is passionate about people development, innovation, diversity and inclusion.
Karine, It is a pleasure to see you again and have you with me today!
Karine Duquesne: Thank you, Naji, and thank you for hosting me today for this podcast on leadership.
Naji Gehchan: I would love first to learn more about your personal story. So what’s in between the lines of you becoming a pharmacist and now leading pharmaceutical companies as a general manager?
Karine Duquesne: My career is more Link to opportunity to really something that I have decided for a long time, um, science and caring for people was something very important for me when I was young, but, um, deciding between medicine, being a doctor or being a pharmacist was more because of some leaders I met.
during my, uh, my, um, my studies. And when I started as pharmacist, as a student, I decided first to work in a retail pharmacy in France because of the relationship you can have with people, with patients. I was so dedicated to patients that I thought firstly that my Part to play was to be close to people.
And then I met a fantastic leader, a woman from a GSK. And, um, she, uh, she shared with me, uh, job, uh, passion for the industry environment and how you can impact being part of, uh, the industry, uh, uh, company. So. I asked for a change in my student part and I moved from a retail pharmacy to, uh, to the, uh, industry development.
And then I joined, uh, Johnson as, um, as a mentee, not a mentee, as a trainee. And I spent 24 years with Johnson growing through the company. I think I have done, I have held all the position you can have, uh, in medical affairs, in commercial, in training, in compliance, everywhere. And I, I grew up like that, more, once again, it’s not a straight line.
It was more opportunity, new project, new people, new leaders that who really inspired me. And then I’m here today.
Naji Gehchan: I love it. Thanks for sharing this. Uh, you, you’ve led through, uh, out your career, as you said, different teams, uh, different functions, metaphor, commercial, and now general manager. You’ve also led in different countries, different companies.
Uh, now Johnson was your longest company you stayed, but you’ve, you moved since. Do you see a common thread or kind of a leadership theme leading people across all those experiences you had?
Karine Duquesne: I think the, the common thing is more linked to myself first is that I am really authentic. When you see me at work, I exactly the same person in my personal life, and it’s one of my conviction supporting people to be themself at work.
It’s really important. Um, the other thing is about passion. I think it this type of job. Um, you need to be passionate by your job to be sure that you can deliver and you can, uh, Go the extra mile because in our job we need to deliver. We need to care to take care of people. We need to manage so many different topics a day.
Um, we need to to start the day be so passionate, but. By our job and the reason why and my personal purpose is to serve the patient across, uh, the French environment today, but across the world and be sure that I can be a small piece in a big part and contribute to that. So you shared this
Naji Gehchan: as you transition from being in retail pharmacy and working with patients directly to now this word and you go back to your purpose and passion that I think many of us, if not all of us in healthcare actually really have this helping patients live better.
Can you Tell us a little bit, because I have a lot of those discussions with still practitioners, how do you see your impact daily? How are you missing this patient interaction, for example, that you had in the pharmacy, or how do you see it today? Um, the
Karine Duquesne: way I am see today is more across the patient organization.
I had the chance that’s really important for me to keep a strong link and relationship with the, the, the people leading a patient association in France. It was really important in rare disease for sure, because especially during the COVID period, I remember. The time we spent with the head of the patient association we worked with at that time, just to be sure that we can, uh, be present even during the COVID period and to serve patients.
And we, we, um, we were so passionate to be sure that we can support them more than before, that we can push all the barriers with the support of the French healthcare system. And for example, for people, um, suffering from pH. going to the hospital during the COVID period to receive their injection, it was too dangerous for them.
And you can’t, um, bring the treatment to their home in France. During the COVID period, we had exceptional authorization for the health care authority to do that for them. So it was tough to imagine we can do that. But in two weeks, We make that possible. So that’s for me the best example about caring for patients and be close to them, even if you work in a pharma company.
So you can do that every day. Next week, um, we will organize, um, a race. And the race it’s about the patient suffering from, um, infirmary chronic disease. Uh, and we will all the employee of the company running for them. So there are different way to support and to be present, uh, for patient according their association.
And every day when I woke up, I wake up, I know that I will work for them. Whatever, that’s my way to think about that every day. It’s
Naji Gehchan: certainly why we wake up every morning. I’m interested now to take you a little bit back in time, but one of the questions that I frequently have since I also, like you, French, moved to the U.
S., I frequently get this question about your, your experience in the U. S. So I’d love to get your thoughts on this. What’s common and how did you lead in different cultures? What did you learn from those, uh, different experiences?
Karine Duquesne: Yes, the it was an amazing experience for me and for my family because I moved with my kids and my my spouse.
It was really amazing. The difference in terms of culture is huge. But when you talk about leadership for me, there’s no difference. Um, remaining who I am. So optimistic, so energized every day, so passionated by my work, um, how I can impact, how I can support my colleague, be a good partner. I guess I did that in the same way than what I was doing when I was leading an organization in France.
And very, very quickly, I was the French woman. People would like to have lunch. With just to share something new. And, um, when I was in France before moving to us, I had a lot of opportunity to mentoring people to mentor people. So I have mentee in Europe, um, in France, in my organization, outside of my organization.
And I’m, when I moved to us, I realized that it was known and. U. S. colleagues asked me to mentor them or mentor someone in their team. So for me, that means that, uh, being authentic, supporting people, look, be so, um, focused on people development. It’s something that you can drive or develop in the same way, whatever the country.
Naji Gehchan: I definitely share your view about how to lead and the way you lead people. It’s kind of human, right? Like the human way that you’re describing. I’m interested. You said, uh, you were the French woman when you were in the U S and I know. You’re passionate about diversity inclusion on those topics are sometimes tricky like we have different views you might have enjoyed being recognized a French woman or not, actually, so I’m really interested in your view about this specific example, but also more broadly, how do you think about diversity equity inclusion within within your teams?
Karine Duquesne: It took me a long time before being so focused on the Um, woman traits of leadership, because firstly, being a young leaguer, um, It was really important for me to be recognized as a leader before then being recognized as a female leader. But right now, knowing the, and having a young woman, um, I talked with about their career.
I realized how it’s still difficult to grow as a female and be authentic. And, uh, even right now with more mature female leader, they’re There is always this question. Can we be ourself as a leader? I am a mom of two teenagers. To be honest, my more difficult job is to be a mom. It’s more rewarding, but it’s so difficult every day.
So I think that being able to be vulnerable at work, it’s perhaps something that seems to be a female traits, but I’m sure that you are someone that can show your vulnerability, Najee. I know you a little bit. I know you can. So it’s not only female traits, but because the gender equity is not there, we need to be supportive and be sure that there are equal chance for young women to be, uh, Perhaps more supported and to have the same change that the young men to develop themselves and to be themselves and not trying to change their way of working to make people understand that they can be a good leader.
Can you share with
Naji Gehchan: us some examples where you helped young leaders, women, uh, leaders throughout your organizations and how do you do this to ensure that those opportunities, especially that now you have this influence and power, if I can say, you know, as a general manager, how do you ensure this is happening consistently across your organization?
Karine Duquesne: I do that through different ways. The first thing is that, uh, um, being a role model, Uh, not to be a focus on myself, but just to be sure that, uh, I can show young female leader that you can be yourself. You can be a mom. You can say, I can’t join this meeting because my son is sick or because it’s his birthday.
And it’s more important for me that this meeting, you know, these small things that in business, most often you keep for yourself and you manage as you can. And just showing that, uh, you can develop yourself, you can grow. In a company, in an organization, why be so clear that your children will remain your first focus and, um, same thing being authentic, sharing some, uh, personal difficulties, sometimes not my personal life, I can talk a lot, but just to share that.
It’s difficult for me too. Some days, I’m sick. Some days, I’m not in a good shape. And don’t try to hide this difficult moment because it’s human beings. So same word, being authentic. In another way, I use different mentoring program because I think sometimes it’s not only about someone being there. You need to structure the approach.
And help people just to say I would like to be supported or what does that mean to to have a mentor compared to a coach or compared to More senior leaders pushing on your back. So just giving some example and um and having um a structured approach meaning something that will last long time enough to be supportive because on only one discussion or one touch point is not enough to really deep dive and support someone in the right way.
Those are great
Naji Gehchan: practical examples. And I love what you shared about having your kids birthdays or any milestone in their life. I remember a great mentor once told me, uh, you will, you will always remember a missed birthday, but you will never remember why you missed it or the meeting you were in and what decision you made in the business side.
So I love those examples. Um, you, you. You’re talking a lot about authenticity, and I want to, like, ask you a question, and vulnerability, like, this is something, as you said, I also believe in. One of the pushbacks, or one of the things people would be afraid of is being perceived as weak, once you’re in leadership positions, if you’re sharing those vulnerable moments.
So, I’m intrigued throughout your career. Up to this, the now where you are and being able to say vulnerably, like I’m not feeling well, or you know, all the discussions we’re having on mental health, how do you think through this and making sure you’re not weak when people actually need you to be strong or being vulnerable when you feel is the right moment?
Is there a moment in time where you feel like you can share, not share? I’m intrigued about how you think about
Karine Duquesne: this. I think it took me time before really. Sharing that with authenticity. Um, for two reasons. The first one is that, um. I think I’m strong. People knowing me, most of the, the leaders I, I knew for years, they started to tell me, you are a man disguised in a woman.
That’s the worst things you can tell me because I’m a woman. So, but perhaps my self confidence and the way I, I say what I think. With a lot of transparency, I’m very direct. So people see me as a strong person and, um, as a man, you know, it took me a time to share vulnerability because it was difficult for me, for me to see my own for new vulnerability, but with experience, because life is about experience, you learn step by step by step that, uh, um, it’s more failures that make you learn than the success you had.
So with that in mind, um, I started to share and it’s about one person. I remember one of my extraordinary PA, my personal assistant, one day she told me, you’re sick, you’re not in a good shape, but you are still there. What do you think? What do you think about the example you give to the young people in your team?
That means that even if you will die, you will come at work. Are you proud of yourself? That was a wake up call for me. And from this day, I can remember this day, um, and I remember Nejima telling me that And with that in mind, I totally changed my thinking about that. And, uh, I started to, to listening to myself first.
And it, the starting point is to start with yourself before telling the other one about vulnerability. And, uh, and right now it’s easy for me to share that. Um, but most often, especially young female, they told me it’s easy for you to, to say you are vulnerable. Because people don’t see you like that. But for me, because I’m, uh, I’m, uh, young, I’m blonde hair.
I seems to be weak by myself. If I share something personal, people will say, Ah, she has too much emotions, too many emotions. Say no, you are who you are. But it’s, uh, it’s a kissing.
Naji Gehchan: No, for sure. Yeah. And, you know, thanks for sharing this and saying it’s just. Like, I don’t know if it’s absurd or not, but it’s the reality, right?
Like what you shared about you being a man disguised, right? Like we, we constantly hear this. It’s, uh, I’m sure we as men hear it less. I heard though, like it’s my woman side of things when I’m more into the humanistic part of, of leadership, which, which. Which is mind blowing, right? Like, it’s just how we separate these.
I’m in a constant fight also, even in retail stores about why my daughters can get their NASA shirts or, you know, astronauts shirts it’s in the voice section, it’s just like, this is how we construct all those biases, unfortunately. Socially. So thanks for doing what you’re doing and pushing people and the society to be better.
Karine Duquesne: Yeah. And my, my way to, um, I love your expression to spread love for me. My way to do that is to spread some of my tips and I do that with all the women I mentor and with all the general manager, female general manager, I am. I met, I told them if I support you, if I help you, if I am a. your mentor and you, you feel that it helps you.
I just have one, one question and one request to yourself is please do that to two other women after. Because if I support you, you need to do and to replicate the same at minimum to two other female. So that’s a way to spread. So I am, I check after they do.
Naji Gehchan: I want not to go into, uh, Kind of a game where I will give you a word and I would love the first reaction that comes to your mind. So the first word is leadership.
Karine Duquesne: Um,
servant leader, two words.
Naji Gehchan: Can you tell us a little bit more?
Karine Duquesne: Um, for me, it’s, it’s really, uh, related to what I mentioned before. Um, and it, it means for me a lot to be. Not only focused on people development, but to look how I can, uh, support the team just to be sure. Um, I will listen to all the voices and be sure that the time I will dedicated to them will be something really, uh, supporting COVID
period. I spent a lot of time to think about the way we will lead our organization after the COVID. And, uh, for me, servant leadership is one of the most impactful way of leading an organization right now. And, uh, be sure that, um, we can, uh, be part of a team, but be sure that everybody at of the, uh, organization as a world.
Uh, as a voice that, uh, will be listened and, um, as opportunity to understand that, um, they, they can make a difference and that really important in the organization. It was part of my introduction yesterday during my sales meeting that you are all. an important piece of our own team, of our own puzzle. And every day, the impact of the difference you will make, at the end, that will make a big difference for the patients.
And that’s for me, uh, the most important thing.
Naji Gehchan: And this has always fascinated me, right? Like in healthcare when comparing to healthcare provider, which is also an enormous noble purpose, right? And you help patients every day, but truly through leadership and our organizations, the impact that you can have and each one.
work is so important to change someone’s life. So reminding our people constantly about the importance of our purpose and why they do what they do is so important. I’m going to go through attention and not another word because I’m, I’m interested. Uh, since, uh, one of the big topics is hybrid work, you said you thought a lot about how, how to lead organizations after COVID.
It’s one of those big topics these days. How do you think of this as a, you’re leading a country and, uh, actually says it’s pretty virtual usually. So I’m, I’m intrigued. How, how do you think about hybrid work or future work, whatever you want to call it.
Karine Duquesne: For me, hybrid is, um, It’s still about relationship. I remember during the COVID, starting every morning with a coffee.
So we had time virtually to take our coffee together like before the coffee machine, but be sure that we can start together. And for me, it was an opportunity to check that, you know, the small signal, someone feeling alone, someone not doing well. And just be sure that this personal moment can make a difference.
Right now, it’s quite different because you have face to face meeting. You have virtual meeting, and you have this hybrid part where part of the team is, uh, is in virtual, the other one are in the same meeting room. And for me, whatever the mode, if you have built before a strong relationship and you take care of Each person in, um, in the meeting room, virtual or not?
You can, um, you can do the same. The difference is that you need to be more, um, explicit, uh, giving some rules. For example, be present when you are in a face-to-face meeting. You can be present and you can have your computer. just in front of you and looking at your emails coming and not being present to the meeting.
So in virtual mode, you can’t see that. So it’s something you need to check more or to share some rules that are part of the way to live together and not being in a meeting. So it’s about human relationship. And what is the most difficult things for me is, is COVID. Plus the new generation with remote time.
What will be the key clue to motivate people? How can you make and design a team or make people feeling they are part of a team or a company if most of the time they are working from home? The question is not about working or not working. It’s about feeling that you are part of the company. Because you are so far from your colleagues, you have not all these, uh, small moments that are more personal than professional.
And, uh, that’s a key question in, uh, for me. That’s a
Naji Gehchan: really important one. Belonging, right? Making sure that people feel they belong. And that’s one of the most important parts of diversity, equity, inclusion, actually, if you feel this. Feeling of belonging and part of a bigger purpose. The second word is innovation.
Drugs.
You have to share a little bit more.
Karine Duquesne: No, treatment for sure. Being part of a, of a pharma company. Innovation means new treatment. And for me, it’s, um. The hope we can cure most of the disease because most often I launched treatment that were for chronic disease where we were a treatment to make people having a better life with their disease, but the few opportunity I had in my career to cure a disease.
It was only one time in hepatitis C. So to be honest, it’s not enough. That’s perhaps. Innovation. It’s more about hop.
Naji Gehchan: What about general
Karine Duquesne: management? Diversity.
It means for me that every day you can touch so many different topics a day. And, uh, because I’m so curious, you have opportunity to deal with many different topic in your company. But being curious, that means you have a lot of external interaction. So it’s like, for sure, you lead your organization, you need to deliver your, your target.
But you have opportunity to open a lot of new doors. Giving opportunity to deal with new ideas and create something new, new ways of working, new ways of developing people. And it’s exactly what I love. And it’s not about the size of your company. It’s about the way you look at your job.
Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread love in organizations.
Karine Duquesne: Kindness.
And the reason why I use this word is because I love the word love. But when I talk about love with people, they told me it’s not for a company. It’s for your personal life and most often kindness when you translate in France, in French, it’s very mis, uh, misunderstood because for me, taking care of people, it means that you be, you will be supportive, but you will be.
Demanding in same time. So it’s not something a week. It’s something about looking at people with positive eyes, giving them a safety space when they can learn, they can grow, they can share their difficulties or this and be able to to be celebrated for success, but same time when you are authentic, you are direct and positive.
You can share with people constrictive feedback. Sometimes tough feedback, but you can help people to understand if they fit with their job, with their position. And it’s not about themselves. They are not bad people or good people. It’s about being sure that at this moment of your life, at this moment of the company with this culture, you are fitting with this position.
What is the core business you need to deal with and be sure that you are happy. With that. So it’s not you need to be courageous. So for me, kindness, love. Most often people misunderstood. What does that mean? And it’s, uh, it’s about challenge. It’s about caring. It’s a mix. Lack in personal life, huh? .
Naji Gehchan: Exactly.
And I love how you framed it because when you truly care, you’re supportive and extremely demanding actually. Yeah. Because you believe in people capabilities and you want them to be at their best. So I love how you framed it. Any final word of wisdom kain for healthcare leaders
Karine Duquesne: around the world? My final words will be, um, perhaps the one I started with, saying that, um, uh, being authentic, be yourself, whatever happens, it’s something that will drive you to your best, that’s my personal conviction, and, uh, it’s about alignment.
With yourself, your purpose, what you are dealing with every day, and I’m sure that the best way to be a happy to develop yourself and be able to support. and develop others around you. Well, thank you
Naji Gehchan: so much for such a great discussion and for being with me today.
Karine Duquesne: Thank you for the opportunity and, and, um, it was great to have opportunity to, to discuss leadership because most often we talk about figures and talking about leadership and people.
It’s really important for me. So thank you for this opportunity. Naji Gehchan: Oh, thank you for being here. And as you said, several times without leadership, you obviously cannot deliver exceptionally well. So it’s interlinked and thanks so much for all your vision about this. Thank you.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host today, excited to be joined by Enrique Conterno CEO of Fibrogen.
A native of Peru, Enrique is a mechanical engineering with an MBA from Duke. He joined Eli Lilly in 1992 and spent the next two decades working in the U.S. and internationally across sales, marketing, finance, business development, and general management roles. Enrique became the President of Lilly Diabetes in 2009. In addition to those responsibilities, he took on the role of President of Lilly USA in January 2017 before retiring at the end of 2019 after 27 years of service with the company. I had the privilege and chance to work in Enrique’s teams, learn from his leadership, and grow in the culture he has created.
Enrique – I am so honored to have you with me today!
I would love to learn more about your personal journey? What is in between the line of the incredibly successful leader you are.
Enrique Conterno: Well, thank you very much. I appreciate the opportunity to have these chats with you and matching. Great. Great to see you again.
Naji Gehchan: Great to see you too. I would love Enrique to learn more about your personal story, your personal journey, what is in between those lines of this incredibly successful, uh, career and that either you are today.
Enrique Conterno: Thank you. I’m not sure exactly where to start, but probably I have to start when. I decided to, um, embark on the journey outside of Peru and pursue my education in the United States. At that time, I was a swimmer I think. And, uh, therefore I had the opportunity as a swimmer to get us a scholarship or scholarships in the U S but beyond that, I think.
Uh, what, uh, that, that was the start of something that I believe shaped me throughout my career, which is, um, we have to take chances, personal chances, certain risks. Uh, it was not easy at that time for me to leave Peru, but I decided to do so. Um, and I think throughout my career, I’ve taken a number of, um, personal risks and for the most part, um, I’m delighted that I took those chances.
Not every single one. Worked in the way that I was expecting them, but we do have to take, be thoughtful, take appropriate chances and, and, uh, And then adapt to changing circumstances. But, um, I think in between the lines, I, um, uh, we’re all, I think our product of our experiences, and I think that’s something that has really shaped me is basically taking chances, uh, thinking certain risks and then, uh, uh, manage in the, in the best way possible to produce excellent outcome.
Naji Gehchan: When you’re talking to Enrique about taking chances and tourists, obviously you said you took it personally. I know as a leader also, you’re taught a lot of risks and you gave people opportunities and chances. Uh, how do you, how do you do this? How have you managed to always build successful teams, lead them towards even bigger successes for the organization stats.
Enrique Conterno: Yeah, there’s no question that talent is at the very heart of successful organizations and creating diverse teams, I think is critical to do that. And, um, and I think I always reflect on. As we, uh, build teams and give people chances. And the opportunity to grow one has to reflect the, somebody took the chance on us to take larger responsibilities.
And in some cases, maybe for us to step up in position, the maybe we thought we were not ready to take on and we have to reflect on that as we basically provide opportunities for, uh, others. Um, At the end. I think there’s no formula when it comes to hiring people or building teams. But I do think there are a number of elements that we want us to look for in a culture that one wants to create.
Um, and we can speak a little more about that, but there’s no question that, uh, people and talent are at the very heart of, uh, continued success in, uh, organizations.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, I would love, I would love to hear about those elements. I’ve, I’ve, you know, I’ve lived that. I think the country, you build a caring culture.
I, you know, I personally call it loving culture, but truly from this shared purpose, the strong values, and then leading your teams to where it’s exceptional execution, uh, to, to deliver on, uh, uh, on this chair and common purpose. I’d love to hear more about the elements you use shared. You shared those, but I’d love to hear more about.
Enrique Conterno: Sure. So, um, and you are absolutely right. I think it’s, um, it’s all about, um, I think centering on our common purpose and, uh, key values and what do we basically expect from all leaders or, uh, employees? Um, all of our colleagues in an organization. Uh, all of that I think is. Part of, uh, starting to create the culture, to the extent that one lives, those values, you start to create those, that culture.
Just try to, uh, uh, not just retain, but attract talent to the, to the organization now it’s, uh, clearly I think, um, there are, um, a number of other elements. Claim to that. Um, I’m a, I’m a huge believer in looking at a track record of success when building teams, uh, not just experiences, but really looking at the track records of, uh, individuals.
And, um, this sometimes can be misunderstood. Um, yes, we look for. The outcomes and outcomes are critical, but it’s also how people dealt in many cases with failures, I think, or, uh, with maybe a, uh, a hand that was not quite perfect. And well, what, what were the actions that the individual then the individual took to improve the situation to, to, uh, make the situation better?
Um, as we, uh, I think about that. I think, uh, we need to, um, and we build this culture and you call it a loving culture, um, a caring culture. Although I think all of that is true. I like to think of it as an empowering culture and you’re right. I think the leader in many cases, trying to serve to ensure that people can basically give, uh, Uh, the most, um, um, given their capabilities, the opportunity that they have.
I think all of that I think is very much true. Um, at the end of the day, I think, um, uh, empowerment needs to also come with accountable. And, um, I’m a big believer on, uh, marrying those two, uh, which is, uh, people need to be empowered, but at the end, I think that empowering needs to lead to increased accountability.
And hopefully the organization then works, I think, in a much better way, um, uh, so that everybody can contribute as long as the priorities and the purpose is clear. I think it’s, um, everything tends to work, um, much more effectively and efficiently.
Naji Gehchan: And thanks Enrique. And I know you’re passionate about DNI and you mentioned that try trick twisting at the first team, uh, while building this culture.
Uh, any, any advice, you know, as you are. Bringing those leaders. Uh, many times we, uh, we are faced with some of the inclusion challenges, and I remember something you always talked about remaining yourself, be yourself and continue to be yourself as you’re, uh, leading and, and in the organization. What, what, what do you do to make sure that people, as they join, uh, don’t change to be in the mall, but try to be themselves and being able to deliver to the expectations?
Enrique Conterno: Yeah, a discussion that I will, that I, uh, come, you know, often have, is that the responsibility of both the leaders in the organization, but also. The, um, the, the, uh, employees coming into the organization to ensure that we can build an inclusive culture. Um, It is through, we need to create that type of environment, a leader, but there’s also responsibility on the person coming in, um, to, in some cases to take that person arrest.
To always, um, uh, be able to speak out and quite frankly, not to just, uh, sort of, uh, come in and be just like your organization that are coming into the reason we, um, organizations can benefit so much from new blood, from fresh thinking from new talent, new hire. It’s because of the unique perspective that they bring from the outside.
What a period would it be that the second day coming into an organization that we lose that because they’re trying to fit in. And there’s no question that there is a bit of a compromise trying to fit in. And, but, um, to the extent that those individuals can be true to themselves, who they are, I think we have a best chance of the organization thriving and ensuring that the individual collective.
Uh, growth, uh, uh, benefits the entire organization. So yes, there is a responsibility of the leaders and there’s also a responsibility of the new hires to ensure that this culture can be built.
Naji Gehchan: Pivoting now to, uh, I, I know you, you know, you share it and you did it on leading in crisis even before, you know, if we want to talk about the current pandemic. Uh, but even before that, I read one of the articles you wrote about leading through moments of crisis. Uh, so can you share more about your learning experiences and did anything changed, uh, leading in this global crisis that we’re all
Enrique Conterno: living.
Yeah, I, um, my, uh, sense, I think when you’re living in a crisis, um, uh, one of, one of the key, um, it’s, it’s always, uh, critically important to remain true to your values. And do the purpose and to understand where the north star is for you and for the organization. Um, otherwise one can, uh, get lost, um, whether it’s a crisis or a.
A moment where you’re going to Sage is thriving. I think we have to recognize that there are, um, a few, I, I call it a few critical decisions each year that really shape, uh, the business, uh, outcomes, the people outcomes, the cultural outcomes of the organization and being thoughtful about those decisions, I think is critical.
Um, it’s um, A crisis, um, tends to, um, uh, challenge all of us because maybe it was, uh, an outcome we did not expect, uh, or an uncertainty that got resolved in an unfavorable way or personnel exiting the organization for other opportunities, whatever the crisis might be. I think it’s always good to remember the crisis.
So. Both, uh, opportunities in itself, it becomes reframed in the right way. So it could be a matter of, um, somebody succeeding. It’s the opportunity to, um, promote somebody. You maybe bring new talent in the organization and, uh, how, you know, how welcome we do that. Um, it’s, it may be a matter of refocusing that priority.
So the organization, or for us to think about, um, um, um, what those new priorities are at the end of the day, though, I think one critical thing throughout crisis. Uh, we all need to be grounded. What I call that reality. Of the ground, the real yet, and the relatives of the situation. I think it’s critically important as a leader that we can objectively assess the situation.
And at the end, uh, provide the direction for the business on the enterprise. Our people, um, sometimes in a crisis is one, one vents to maybe color how things might be. It’s just critically important that we don’t have those roads with rose-colored glasses and we’re able to tackle, I think the challenges.
Naji Gehchan: That’s great. You talked about being true to the values, right? To your personal values. You started with this, uh, around the common and shared purpose. Um, looking at it from an opportunity standpoint, are there things to do to refocus and then ending on a objective objectively, always assessing the situation?
The communication I imagine you mean in this is super important, right? Like giving hope, but at the same time being realistic to what we’re going through. Uh, is key,
Enrique Conterno: right? It is, I think, without being realistic, I think it’s, um, the changes not very lasting because. You lose credibility over time. Um, and at the end of the day, people can kind of objective, really assess what the situation is as well.
Um, so it is, uh, I think it is critically important than, uh, that the organization or the other days align and needs to be aligned on those. In, uh, a grounded view of what the realities are, uh, because I think then I think the priorities are better. Understood. Uh, demonization can be best aligned. And at the end of the thing, then I think, uh, um, that, that grace, a certain.
Um, build trust and trust is critical. I think, to be able to execute with agility and speed.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, definitely. Uh, Enrique talked about failure. Uh, we, we, we, we look at you, we see huge successes all over even, uh, you know, we we’ve seen you in your, in the different leadership role that you had taking things and making them happen, right.
Like, Challenging pieces, giving again through a vision and taking all the organizations to amazing, huge successes. How do you do this? Like, and did you ha did you have some moments of doubt you started in the beginning saying sometimes you have to take jobs, even doubting that you can, even to them, what, like, do you have a story that you can tell us, uh, around this and how you manage to, uh, to build all that you’ve been building throughout the.
Enrique Conterno: Yeah, I, I, there are there, there are probably many that I can share, but I think we can start. I think, uh, you were mentioning, we both worked together in, uh, diabetes. You were, I recall when you were working in, in France and I really wanted to show that you could come to the U S. In, uh, and I was delighted that you were able to come in and so that we were able to work together.
But, um, uh, 1, 1, 1 piece, I think. Maybe people don’t realize is that those, those first few years in diabetes, while everybody looks a little bit diabetes today, and it’s an incredibly growing successful business, the first few years were challenging. Um, um, it, they were challenging because, um, we were having a number of setbacks.
We had, uh, uh, uh, we’re losing market share with some of our key products. Um, we, our pipeline was not where we wanted it to be. And we had some setbacks in our pipeline. And at the end of the day, I think we needed to. Take stock of really where we were at at that time and make some, um, some pretty big decisions.
Right. Um, um, all of that did not change overnight. Um, it was a matter of basically building, you know, starting, you know, uh, at one point in time, we entered into Alliance with Boehringer Ingelheim, um, with. That today, of course, highly successful. Um, but at that time there was, you know, um, those, those, uh, uh, products were, uh, promises, if you wish.
Um, we were trying to build, uh, GLP one pipeline. And, um, you know, we’ve had some, uh, also a challenging, uh, collaboration at that time, uh, with, uh, with another party. So all in all, I think it w we were looking at a business, the what challenge, but had potential. And if there was, uh, There was something that I can, um, maybe look back it’s I’m, I’m glad that we felt, you know, um, the, we were committed to our strategy and we allowed for the strategy to play out over time.
It took a little bit of. Patients, um, net, net and, um, vision was needed at that point in time, because I think for Lilly, uh, overall I think, uh, the situation was a challenge, but it was not just for diabetes. Um, but we saw the potential, um, while, um, we, we, we didn’t have what I’m going to call it the perfect plan or the perfect roadmap.
Um, we saw what were the key levers to try to.
We followed those I’ll be honest too. We had overtime, we had some good breaks and some people say we took advantage of them. That’s true. Uh, but some of the journey and some of these strategic initiatives took several years to develop anything from that collaboration with Boehringer Ingelheim that is highly successful in everything from developing the pipeline and the new products.
Uh, from, um, being much more cost efficient or, uh, our cost structure. Those were the, your projects. And over time, I think, um, we, uh, we were able to build that thing. Together with a great team, I think, um, um, a great organization, but it, it took time and I keep in mind that I was in that job for what is it?
Over 10 years. Um, so I had a chance to see the cycles of it. Um, and yeah, I’m, I’m, uh, very proud of what we built, but, uh, yeah, it’s. Everything else. It wasn’t all always roses. There were, you know, what’s a little bit of a rollercoaster in particular in the.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, but it’s the, the millions of patients around the word help through, uh, what you’ve built and, and the value that your breath is just, is just immense.
Um, you, one of the things, you know, we always talk in strategy. Uh, and I’d love your take on this that you said you had to be patient, try to build this strategy. You believed in it. We all believed, believed in it, and then you have to be patient. And we here on the opposite side. So now being, uh, see, oh, um, in a, in a different company and in biotech, we hear a lot about agility, changing the gap, making sure that we understand what’s going on and change if needed.
Any, any thoughts about this when to change strategy and when not to change and be persistent on it?
Enrique Conterno: I think it’s, um, clearly the circumstances, um, um, the, the fine, what the strategies should be. Uh, the strategies should be able to overcome setbacks, but I think sometimes that’s easier said than done. And I, uh, Depending on, you know, the, uh, resources, the size of the company.
And, and so for some of his strategies might be more valuable than others. And I think we need to reassess and adjust the strategy as circumstances change. Right. Um, uh, you mentioned, um, I draw a lot from, um, some of the challenges when we’re building the diabetes business, as I think about five region where we are right now, uh, the fact that we have, um, yeah, we had a pretty significant setback, uh, when it comes to a complete response letter in the U S at the same time we’d been approved.
China Europe, Japan, uh, to be able to commercialize rocks, reduce that. Um, so to me, I think it’s, um, um, clearly, uh, uh, as I’ve mentioned, I, uh, drawing on all of those experiences and thinking about how do we ground ourselves in and the realities of the situation. How do we adjust our priorities? Uh, how do we basically think about greatest, significant value for our shareholders, their patients?
How do we keep our purpose, uh, in front of us? And, um, and once again, honestly, assessing where, where we are and, and, um, and what is it that we have to focus on right now? So, Uh, as leaders, I think, um, we have to keep in mind that all of these experiences serve to ground us, right. They give us confidence for the path ahead and the ability that we can have to be able to, uh, basically for job, a very successful future.
Naji Gehchan: Thanks Enrique. I would love to get your first reaction to a couple of words out. I will, I will be saying, uh, and the word, the first one is leadership. What would it be? The first,
Enrique Conterno: first thoughts on, on leadership is change agents. Um,
Bias for action and, uh, working doors, um, working towards, uh, outcomes, uh, aligning or, uh, organizations.
What
Naji Gehchan: about mentorship?
Enrique Conterno: Uh, And, um, and mentors should have been a bit different from sponsorship. Uh, but men mentorship is basically, um, providing, uh, the advice and, uh, they use sites. At the personal and professional level for, for talent to be, um, uh, you know, as successful as they can be and different from and sponsorship because sponsorship, in addition to all of that, I believe it also includes advocacy and a real action from the leader in terms of.
Um, you know, uh, taking a, had done, um, basically allowing for that individual to, uh, take additional jobs or, uh, responsibilities as they basically grow.
Naji Gehchan: And I know you’ve, uh, you believe in reverse mentorship, I think too, right at where it got it. Any thoughts on this too?
Enrique Conterno: All of us to make sure that we are truly at the other, they connect it to what’s going on and receive informal feedback. I’ve I’ve had reverse mentioned mentorship one-on-one and also multiple in one meeting, just being able to hear people. And I, um, to do that, I think curiosity is incredibly important, uh, and openness, the ability to really.
Um, uh, here and try to understand as opposed to try to justify. You know, uh, why sort of things are what they are. So that’s, that’s a thing, the, uh, the power of it, but, uh, mentorship is a, um, you said is, um, dual way street. And anytime one is mentoring somebody in the way that I mentioned one can be mentored as well.
One is open to that.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. I totally agree. Um, vacation.
And I’m asking this because you wrote about it. Yeah. It’s um,
Enrique Conterno: I’m a big believer on, um, uh, working hard and playing hard as well. Um, uh, Uh, I believe all of us need to take that diamond space, you know, to refresh and replenish ourselves. And to do that. Sometimes we do have to disconnect from our daily work.
So, uh, uh, allowing for the space and time to be able to do that, I think it’s, um, critical. Um, so I’m, I’m a big believer in, uh, Ensuring that, um, that, uh, balances is going to be there. Sometimes people ask me to quantify what that balance should be, but I think that balance is very personal. It’s like people say, well, define for me with a work-life balance is how many hours I think it’s different for.
Different people. And each one of us needs to understand our own personal boundaries. And what is it that allows us to basically be as effective, you know, at work. Um, and we have to be self aware to be able to assess and evaluate that, right. Maybe somebody is able to work many more hours than somebody else and we need.
Naji Gehchan: We’ll be able to
Enrique Conterno: respect those, those boundaries and what we at the other day should look for is, um, what are the outcomes? Um, um, and how are the, uh, how, um, how effective is each one of us, uh, being in the positions that we have. So no hard rules, but, uh, finding that personal balance is incredibly important and the organization cannot find this balance for you.
You have to find it for yourself. Yeah,
Naji Gehchan: totally agree. And I think you shared it at the beginning. You’re a swimmer. I’m not sure if you. Uh, continued to spend, but I know for a while, that was also because I’m thinking about how every day, not only taking vacations, but even everyday how to disconnect, try to refresh our minds as leaders super important for not only us, but our teams, our families, uh, as I know, for, for a while, swimming was part of this for you, but definitely it’s important.
I imagine to disconnect daily, to.
Enrique Conterno: Yeah. I, I, I, I, uh, whether it’s swimmer swimming on a different exercise, I think it’s good to be, uh, active and, uh, and I’m pretty big believer for awhile was swimming every day. Um, Maybe between, uh, you know, when I was in my mid forties to my maybe early fifties, I was swimming every day and even competing in masters competition.
Uh, um, and I, uh, I got a lot from it. Um, but I wasn’t doing it just to be active, you know? And, um, but it’s, it’s fun, you know, because you can see your progress and you are getting in shape. Uh, so yeah, I need, it’s fine to compete. So I, I it’s, uh, I got a lot of satisfaction from that. I’m not swimming today, but I’m doing, uh, I do go to the gym at least four times a week.
Um, and I do spend about an hour. Um, so it’s, it’s, it’s something that I believe in that I think is critical. I think it’s as part of, at least my personal balance.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, that’s, that’s great. And it’s great to hear because many times we have those idea. No, you cannot, you know, work, be successful, be have your family, your network, and then do also train.
But another amazing example, uh, your, your setting here, Andrew, uh, the last word I’d love your reaction is spread love and organizations.
Enrique Conterno: Yeah. It’s um, That’s, that’s probably an easier one, uh, from the, uh, questions, I think aside, um, as you work, I think in the organizations you, uh, closely with people and when you align on, on, on purpose and objectives and when you’re committed to, uh, to a cause or, uh, an objective.
You, you tend to spend a lot of time with, uh, with each one of our colleagues. And of course, as part of that, you, um, you develop a certain closeness and you, I think all of us care for the people that are all of our colleagues that are working with us, um, And I think though the way that I think about spreading to this is your quote spreading love through the organization is, um, is caring, truly caring for four people and demonstrating that in a number of different ways.
There, there are a number of, uh, maybe axioms or. Uh, truth that one has to abide one, uh, uh, abide by one of them is to really be, uh, completely truthful to people and not just for people to hear what they want to hear, but truly what they should be hearing. And I know that sometimes people say, well, that’s hard.
Love it is really not. It is just truly caring about the person. Why would you want to say some person that is not really helping them, uh, maybe make that interaction easier, but at the end, I think longer term, I think we’re not, uh, the person is not going to grow. So when it comes to, um, uh, spreading love or care, I think it starts with, uh, the intent having the right intent and, uh, having a transparent, honest relationship, uh, with, uh, uh, with, with your colleagues.
I think that’s the basis, uh, for that.
Naji Gehchan: I love it and I will definitely keep it in mind. It’s not tough love. It’s true love, which is definitely true. Any final word of wisdom for the leaders around the.
Enrique Conterno: No, thank you very much for, uh, you taking this initiative, uh, with this, uh, set of, uh, podcasts. Uh, it’s exciting to see you again, and, um, I’m glad that you’re doing well.
And once again, thank you for the opportunity to share some of these thoughts with you. Naji Gehchan: Uh, thank you. Thank you for being here and sharing a part of your story and amazing advice. And for this inspiring, genuine discussion.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to “Spread Love in Organizations”, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this exciting episode from our new series focused on us as leaders. I’m joined by Professor Elsbeth Johnson, Senior Lecturer at MIT Sloan School of Management and an expert on leadership, strategy and change. The main focus for her research is on what leaders need to do to help their organizations execute strategy, or deliver long-term, strategic change, without the need for the leader’s ongoing, personal involvement. Prior to joining MIT, Elsbeth was taught leadership at London Business School and London School of Economics.
Prior to academia, Dr Johnson worked as an investment banker, a sell-side equity analyst, and a corporate strategist. She also spent three years as a special adviser to the first Blair Government in the UK.
As a consultant and executive educator, Elsbeth has worked with a range of companies, helping them develop their strategy and the capabilities and culture that will deliver it. I had the opportunity to be her student this year in the MIT EMBA program and couldn’t but ask her if she can share her wisdom and advice with all of you!
Elsbeth – I am thrilled to have you with me today!
I’m eager to hear more about your personal story from investment banking to politics to now a professor of leadership! What’s in between the lines of your journey?
Elsbeth Johnson: Um, so I, I mean, investment banking was very much where I started and actually I loved the city. So the city has kind of what we, it’s the UK equivalent of wall street.
Um, lots of smart people, all of whom worked really hard. I really felt at home in that environment, but I’d always been very interested in politics. So as a teenager, um, as a student I’ve been interested and involved in. And so it was a bug that I had to kind of give into, um, until I felt like I didn’t want to be a professional politician myself.
And so I worked on, um, the labor campaign in 97, which resulted in, you know, the largest labor landslide and since 1945, not that, that was personally done to me. Um, but, um, and then I joined the labor goes or I left the city. Joined the government as a special advisor, uh, worked in three different departments of state.
Uh what’s on another two election campaigns. So it was very, very enjoyable. But what I, I guess I realized was there was quite a few things I missed from the private sector. Um, and there was quite a few things that I didn’t necessarily like about, um, doing politics. Professionally kind of for living. Um, but I guess if, if I looked at the red thread that linked.
Banking and particularly the kind of the kind of work that I did in banking. So corporate strategy, corporate finance, structure, finance, um, thinking about businesses and, and why they make money. I mean, that’s basically, you know, uh, sell-side actually almost essentially a well-paid financial journalist in many ways.
Um, and the sort of work I did in politics and the sort of work I’ve done since then. I mean, basically it’s thinking about. Two things it’s thinking about strategy. Um, you know what what’s, what’s not just the best way to do this, but what’s the right thing to do. And secondly, then once you’ve settled on what, what you’re going to do is what are the activities that leaders need to focus on in order to get that work done in the most effective way.
And so essentially, I mean, that’s that, I suppose to the extent that there is a red thread,
Naji Gehchan: Awesome. You touched it on, you know, this, um, this thread, uh, with your life or the decisions that you’ve made. And I know in, uh, in the very first course touch, we had video and the discussions we talked about, uh, you know, the green circle, blue circle, if you can touch it maybe before you say, but what I would love to hear from you is your, your personal green circle.
If I may, what is your personal purpose? I know you make us work a lot around this, so I’d love to hear that.
Elsbeth Johnson: So that’s a really good question. And, um, and it’s not the first time I’ve been asked this question and every time I’m asked it, I think, wow. I’m not sure my answer is very good. I’m not sure. My answer is probably as good as yours now is when, when not given, I asked you this question in class.
So I think, I think about the purpose of why, why I continue to do what I do with, particularly with clients, because I could just either teach all the time or retire or. I think what I really like doing is finding, and I think about, you know, the businesses with whom I work these days and the leaders with whom I work.
I guess what I really liked doing is finding and helping people find the work that they most love. Um, because an awful lot of people, um, you know, I, I don’t think spend enough time really focusing on the work that they really love to do. Um, you know, that a lot of people are very good at lots of things, right?
So they’ve, they, they’re in a spoiled position of, of having lots of options open to them. But if they were to focus on the work they really love doing, I think, I think that’s particularly interesting. I have to say, I think the most effective leaders out there are the ones who really want to lead rather than simply be senior in an organization leading and being senior are two very different things.
Um, the reason you, you do those things are very different, right? Um, so if all of our leaders are just the people who are obsessed with gaining and retaining positional power, then I suspect we’ll end up with leaders who are. It’s as good as the ones we, we could end up with. If we, if we really focused on getting people who really wanted to lead.
And so one of the things I really enjoy about my, my work outside of teaching outside of MIT is I get to spend time with people, both who are already like. But also people who are maybe one or two below C-suite who are thinking about, do I want to be on at the C level? Do I want to be a leader and really kind of helping, you know, finding the ones who really want to lead as opposed to simply be senior and then helping them get that is, is just incredibly real.
Naji Gehchan: I love where the discussion is going. Uh, you, uh, you know, I, I always say life is too short. , life’s too short. And I know sometimes it’s hard. It’s easier to say that into, but it’s just incredible when your personal, why isn’t total coherence with what you’re doing. I just think good morning. This is where I think magic starts.
Elsbeth Johnson: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I’m not sure that I’m, I’m always as disciplined. Like I really need to read my own slides a bit more than I do. Right. I’m not sure. I’m always as disciplined as. Could be about the Y I mean, you know, I really have no excuse to not focus on, um, you know, the stuff that I really enjoy and the stuff that I think has most value, um, because I’m in a privileged position of not, you know, not needing to work.
And so I have no excuse not to be doing the absolute, um, You know, most value adding work or most enjoyable work. And yet, you know, there’s still days when I just think, oh, why did I agree to this? You know, we’re all, you know, we’re all we all, we all, sometimes aren’t quite as focused as we ought to be. Um, but it’s the 80 20 rule.
As long as you’re doing it. Most of the.
Naji Gehchan: Exactly. As long as work is not more than, you know, 20% not liking a trap. We all have our jobs, things we do with sort of the people at that 20%. I do the same rule when you were talking about leaders, right? Is senior execs, C-suite leaders, younger managers, leaders that you have.
Is there a, what is for you the most important trait? For the leaders of the 21st century. If there’s one thing I know we discussed of different topics in class, taught us a lot about this, but for you, what is the most important one to have?
Elsbeth Johnson: So for me, and you’re right, there’s lots of traits that we know from empirical research or really.
But for me, and this probably says something about my own value set and upbringing. I am always looking for a combination of two things. One is high capability, and I guess what I mean by that is really high capability. Uh, really clever, very applied high capability with low. Now I have one or two clients who in my mind personify exactly that combination of high capability and low ego, and they are just a treat to work.
But I think if we can get more leaders who are in that combination, I just think regardless of the culture of the organization, that’s always a great combination because what that enables that, that what that combination enables is obviously high capability, right? People are smart. They’re able to get stuff done.
They’ve got a lot of processing power, but low ego means that they, they put the work, they put the business. They put their clients, they put each other, they put the people, the next generation of leaders before themselves or before their own. Need for validation or, um, or promotion. And, and I do think that’s important.
I think, you know, history is replete with examples of when, if an individual or a collection of individuals put the greater good, the quality of the cause ahead of their own need to, um, to benefit then. Chances are higher, that good things will happen. Um, I mean, as someone once said and forgive me, I can’t remember who this was, but it’s amazing what a mate, it’s amazing what good things you can do if you no longer care about who gets the credit.
And that’s kind of what I mean by, by low ego that they put the work and they put other people ahead of their own need for validation or.
Naji Gehchan: And do you think if I followed a double pick on this, do you think those are skills that can be developed? That can be COVID right.
Elsbeth Johnson: So, I mean, what, what psychology would tell us is that, um, you know, I mean that capable of both capability and low ego are a combination of, um, How we’re brought up and a little bit of nature, um, particularly capabilities.
Some of this, some of these intellectual or, um, cognitive skills are, are to some extent inherited. Uh, but our environment, particularly our young, early age environment is very, very important. I think, I think the low ego stuff is largely around how. What we, um, what we come to value and also, um, what our organizations value.
So, you know, I, I grew up on an island, um, where most people knew each other, a lot of people were related to each other. It didn’t matter if you were really, really clever. This island did not suffer tall poppies. So, so, um, you know, like you, you had to get on with everybody because you know, when, if the blizzard came and you needed somebody, hell you better have not been a joke to them at any point in the previous three years because people are on an island have long memories.
Right. So I think to your point about, is it, how, how do you, how do you get this combination of high capability, low ego? I think some of them. It’s nature, some of it’s nurture, but I also think it’s what we’re brought up to value. And so, you know, I’m, I’m pretty allergic to high egos because I grew up on an, in a, in a world, literally an island where hikers, just one tolerated, you know?
Um, so, so I think our own sensitivities to these things are, are largely a product of our value set. However that that’s been.
Naji Gehchan: You, you, you, you talked also, you know, we talked here about the traits of leaders. Um, you talked about you in your book. I, I have to, uh, relate to it and honestly the, the strategic leading strategic change and the framework that you, uh, that you give and, uh, and step up and step up that book is really amazing.
And you’ve touched on something that is called meaningful autonomy. So I’d love to hear about it. But before that, Why I’m talking about the book, because you summarize it in one sentence at the end of the class, and you talked about it, uh, just in the introduction here, you said something I would always remember is that the most essential Java either is to create more leaders.
So that, that is so powerful. And I think it clinks into the skill ego and how you care about your people, how you bring you sat in the beginning of the next generation. So a little bit more about the
Elsbeth Johnson: office. Well, let me, let me explain a little bit more on that. Talk about, um, meaningful autonomy. But, but I, I do think, I mean, this was, um, Mary Follett who’ve, um, originally came up with this idea that, or the statement that, you know, that the primary job of leaders is to create the next generation of leaders.
Now you obviously at one point or in one way, as a leader, you use your positional power to create the next generation of leaders just by promoting. Choosing a pipeline of successes and deciding who’s going to get the top job. I think the problem though, is that that either creates a vicious or a virtuous circle.
If the existing set of leaders are all, um, highly ego, um, you know, value certain things. What we know about human psychology it’s called the affinity bias is that people will choose. Um, they will essentially self-replicate, they will choose successes who look and smell like them. And so the real risk or danger is that if you’ve got an existing set of perhaps quite high ego leaders, is chances are that, that for, for a set, for a set of reasons, including that people self-replicate, but also that the candidates for leadership will look up above them and the low ego ones will go.
Oh, well, there’s no point in me trying to be a leader around here because when I look up above me, the only people who are in positions of power are high, he goes, so either I need to change and stop being low ego, or I need to go somewhere else and try and be a leader where my low ego tendencies are, are not going to be punished.
So the cell replication that we very often see in organizations around leadership and who gets promoted typically means. It’s quite hard to break the vicious circle of high ego leaders. But assuming that you can then, then yeah, your, your job as a leader is, is, is to create this next generation who can understand what good leadership looks like.
Who’ve been taught and coached about how to do it well. Um, because, because then it becomes, you know, you just cascade that down. So.
Naji Gehchan: Before you jump, make it to the autonomy piece, because it’s a very important one. You talked about affinity bias, self replication. Um, and I want to extend that even more.
It’s something I constantly have in my mind, try this. At some point, I remember very early in my career, someone told me, usually we recruit our clones, which I hate, you know what I think about it. Yeah. Especially when we think about diversity equity inclusion, right? So. Yeah. So this circle that we need to break on high ego, it’s the same that we need to break on.
Man. Women do diversity ethnicities. How do you consciously and intentionally look into those unconscious biases and every recruitment I make with the teams and the things specific you’ve seen and been successful on breaking this vicious circle last week.
Elsbeth Johnson: Well, I think two things. Um, I think first of all, getting as many people involved in the recruitment and promotion process as possible, um, if you like that, that’s not to reduce any individual affinity bias that any individual leader brings.
That brings to the table, but all it does is create a portfolio of hopefully different affinity biases, assuming that, you know, not all of your leaders are white, straight able-bodied men. In other words, assuming that there is some, both cognitive and social diversity amongst your leadership population.
If there isn’t, then you need to be looking outside for some help on that. Um, from, you know, recruitment consultants or, or head hunters to really force you to look at candidates who you, whom left to your own devices, you wouldn’t think of as plausible candidates. So that’s the first thing is to broaden the portfolio of afinity biases as to say, as individuals, we all have these biases because we’re human the best, almost the best we can hope.
Is that we, you know, if you and I are both recruiting somebody, you’ve got a different set of pharmacy biases for me, and therefore, you know, yours, yours will challenge mine and vice versa. So that’s the first thing. The second thing to say is that the process of recruitment. Um, has to be very carefully structured and managed.
So, um, you know, it frightens me, but it’s true that there are still some organizations in the world who don’t even use structured interviews, that they, they just kind of bring someone in for a chat or they meet over coffee or they recruit out of their network. And what we know about all of those sources of, uh, of candidates is because our networks will, will sell.
Um, there’ll be, and when we just chat with someone, we are essentially trying to work out, we’re trying to discern social fit. In other words, oh, look, we went to the same school or we, you know, we both play golf at the same club or we both, you know, do the same running track. Um, so it, it. So human beings are incredibly, um, almost invisibly skilled at sniffing out social fit.
And so if you just quote, unquote, have a chat with someone, um, actually you will be doing a terrible job, recruiting them or interviewing them. You’ll be doing a great job working. That whether you could be friends with them. Um, but so, so at the very least what what people need to do is have structured interviews.
In other words, you know, if I’ve got six candidates, I basically asked them the same question, hopefully in a sufficiently conversational way. So I don’t sound like a robot, but, but I am asking them the same set of questions. I can form my, um, my assessment of them across, but even more than that, we should be going beyond interview because most care human beings are actually very good at impression managing.
And so, you know, if, if you asked me to give you an example of where I’ve been really collaborative in the past, guess what. Semiotic human being. And I’ll probably come up with a couple of really plausible sounding examples of me being super collaborative and you’ll be thinking, oh, wow, she’s amazingly collaborative.
Actually I might not be, I might just be impression managing. So a much better way to test that is not in an interview scenario or setting at all, but actually in an experiential setting where you put me in a, in a group of other people, perhaps under some stressful conditions and you watch and see whether I can collaborate rather than ask and, and listen to me, tell you and quite possibly.
You know, fabricate some of my, um, collaborative tendencies. So I think there’s lots of ways we can get smarter about how we recruit now, the problem with all of the things that I’ve just talked about is they take longer and they are more expensive ways of recruiting. And so for those of us who, perhaps for organizations that don’t have that much time on or enough budget, it’s it’s, um, it can feel like.
Um, it can feel easy and free to compromise on our recruitment process. Whereas actually compromising on our recruitment process is one of the most expensive mistakes that organization can make.
Naji Gehchan: Definitely thank you for that. Going back. I want to go to this, these two words, uh, about meaningful autonomy and bed to talk about because.
Many people, some people would be afraid of the word autonomy. Some others would be excited about it, but I love how you framed it, which is meaningful. But me, what I have thoughts about this and for us as leaders, uh, how to get to that. Really good position where our people can, can be meaning fully
Elsbeth Johnson: autonomous.
Yeah. So the reason that I call it meaningful autonomy is because in my research, so my research is in inductive research, which means I go and watch and ask people, um, you know, very open-ended questions. Um, a lot of it done, um, by watching and observing. So ethnographic research. What is it that makes your autonomy meaningful or sorry?
What, what, what is it that, that, um, sorry, what, what is it that means that you don’t have to go and ask your leader for input or support or. And, um, a number of my informants, um, said, oh, well, in other words, what you’re really asking me is what makes my autonomy meaningful. And that’s the critical point that, that this, this, these words actually came not out of my mouth or my head, but out of the mounds of my informants.
And so that became a really interesting research question. Um, and it turns out there’s two things that really help someone come to work and access. The autonomy, the decision rights that they have technically been given. Um, but, but, but that where they feel that they can actually exercise these rights without having to escalate and go back to their leader and say, help me, or referee between these two options or tell me what I should do.
So the two things are when the autonomy, when the exercise of the autonomy is. Uh, in other words, they’ve got enough resources. Um, they’ve got enough time, uh, the scope isn’t stupid, um, or too great. Um, so in other words, lots of structural elements, all of the structural elements are in place to enable the, the, them to exercise their autonomy.
But then beyond the structural element, there’s almost a psychological element, which is that it is not. Possible, but also pleasant. Um, but they’re comfortable in exercising their autonomy. They don’t feel like they are having to go out on a limb or take on unnecessary risk. Um, and the elements that really help them.
Um, oh, when the leader has really put really signaled in every possible way that they can, what they want and, um, and back that up. So not only been clear about what they want, but also align the organization and been consistent in that, um, Uh, a period of time. That means that people don’t have to second guess, you know, well, you know, you say that you want this, but that’s not what I see you role model, and it’s not what you measure.
And, and by the way, that’s not how you know, it’s not all my OKR is contained. So, so all of a sudden, if you’re sending me in congruent, I’m having to second, guess what you really want me to do. And the critical thing there is that good employees who want to come to work and do their best. They do not want in congruent inconsistent leaders because that does not help them.
The Corolla is also. That your, that you’re less good employees who kind of wants to come to work and have a slightly easier time or not do amazing work. They upset you love it when leaders are inconsistent or in congruent, because it gets, gives them a get out of jail card. They can come to you at their performance appraisal and say so sure, I know you said you wanted me to do this.
You haven’t brought it in my job description, but I don’t see you role model and it’s not. You’re going to reward me and it’s not even what we measure. So you can’t possibly hold me accountable for the thing that you asked me to do. So that’s really what we mean by, um, by meaningful autonomy. And I guess the most interesting thing about, um, or, or almost counterintuitive thing about this idea is that autonomy needs to be constrained albeit in certain ways, in order to become meaningful.
Now this can feel a little bit paradoxical. First time I say that, right? What do you mean constrained autonomy. It’s almost an oxymoron. Actually. It isn’t unconstrained. Autonomy is. Actually frightening for your best employees because they, they actually really do need to know. And have you signaled consistently what you want?
Unconstrained autonomy is Nirvana for your back for your worst employees, because they just they’re rubbing their hands with glee. At that point, they, they get to do exactly what they want. They get to spend shareholder money doing whatever they fancy their hobbies. So unconstrained autonomy is fabulous for them, but this idea of constrained autonomy, it’s the constraints, the clarity and level of prescription that leaders give in the constraint that sets up that frees up, that they’re the people who report to them to really shine.
In delivering what the leaders have asked for. And so the, the, the quality of the autonomy experienced by managers is directly proportionate to the quality of, of prescription and the clarity of that prescription, uh, given to managers by leaders.
Naji Gehchan: That’s amazing. I’m not gonna detail. You know, things in
focus consistency. We’ve got to talk about these also a little bit more, but really the framework is super helpful. I’m going to jump into the section that is a little bit different. So I’m going to give you one word and I’d love to have your first reaction to it. And yeah, you can, will discuss a little bit about it.
So the first one is authentic leader.
Elsbeth Johnson: Um, and do you want a one word response or just, just my response
Naji Gehchan: and response. I’m going to be one. We’re going to be a fellow first thing in mind.
Elsbeth Johnson: So I guess my one word response would be misunderstood. Um, I know for a lot of people, I think certainly a lot of the leaders that I work with, they, they hear the words authentic leader.
And they, they, they misunderstand it in one of two ways. They either think, okay, in order to be authentic, I just show up as myself. You know, I just kind of vomit myself into the room, like a human hand grenade and, you know, whatever I’m kind of, you know, however I show up, that’s just my authentic self. So like, what else can I do in otherwise it’s relatively uncontrolled.
And that’s a huge mistake, obviously, because. As long as we have an obligation to manage ourselves for the benefit of, you know, our people, our organization. So, so that’s the first way in which I think a lot of leaders misunderstand authentic leadership and the requirements that it puts on them. I think the second way that leader is very often misunderstand, authentic leadership.
That they something in my experience, they don’t always realize that that who you are changes over time. Um, now I think that, that sounds really obvious when I say it, but you know, we very, again, part of the human condition, another, another cognitive misconception is that we very often. Underestimate the extent of the changes that will undergo as human beings over the longterm.
We typically overestimate how much we can get done in the short-term, but we underestimate how much we can do and how, how, how much we can change over the long-term I’m talking decades rather than months or years. And so I think as a result of that, we very often think, well, you know, in 20 years time, I’ll basically just be the same person, whereas actually, Johnson’s all that’s not true.
Um, but more than that, if you think you’re, you’re not really gonna change that much or that you don’t think you could change that much, you might be missing some opportunities that you could be looking for in your career. And I think that’s a real shame. So I think that will be my reaction. It’s it’s very often a misunderstood.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. And then you talked to, I remember you talked also about the different sounds try. It’s like in different places situation. So it’s really every day how we change over time. Right. The second word would be focused.
Elsbeth Johnson: Well, I mean, focus for me is the thing, it’s the secret. I’m going to say secret sauce, because that makes it sound like it’s kind of some secret recipe. Focus is for me, the thing that explains whether some strategies get implemented and some leaders make it versus other strategies that actually probably intellectually were equally good strategies, but they didn’t get implemented.
Um, focus is the thing that, that means that we, it requires choice. It requires deliberate choice to do certain things. We’ll spend time on certain things or invest in certain things and not others. And I think, I suspect we are much worse at this as human beings than we have ever been, because I think a lot of people they’re so used to.
No doing without in their lives, at least, you know, in the first world, right. You go on Amazon and you can have whatever you want. Um, you know, things are. Uh, available. Um, I mean, they’re not currently available in my country because we’ve managed to cut our own supply chain. Cause we’ve just, you know, left a 40 year trading arrangement unilaterally.
But, but assuming you, you don’t live in an irrational country that, you know, commit economic suicide, um, you know, things are available and, and I don’t think people have. Choose the often, but actually that’s a complete misconception because the most important things in life, like time for example, is completely finite.
So back to your point earlier, you know, life’s too short. I mean, that’s a classic example of the AFR. Uh, a series of choices. We only have so many hours in the day and so many days in our lives, so we have to choose how to spend them well. And, and, and focus is, is really the thing that focuses, what results from your, the choices that you make.
So the fact that Mo that an awful lot of people and organizations like focus, I think is basically because people just don’t want to.
Naji Gehchan: I love this frame, a bit of red choices, you know, and many times we see here discussing with leaders and organizations, right? The list of priorities that keep on moving and changing.
So I’m more, I’m more just talking about like, what are the choices, what are the two, three things that you want to do and be great at, right. And it’s, yeah, it’s tough to choose. And so what we need to do for able
Elsbeth Johnson: to be. But I would add to that, that I think the other problem is that, you know, an awful lot of organizations will run a strategic planning process, almost like an event, you know, um, once a year or once every two years, an ounce of that may actually come some pretty clear choices.
But the problem is that over time the clarity gets corrupted, um, because they add in, you know, so-called additional priorities. Um, and so one of the things that I, uh, I wouldn’t say force. Cause I mean, you know, I can’t quite force my clients to do things, but one of the things I very strongly advise my clients to do is that for every additional priority that they say they want, they have to take something off the list.
So the total amount of what. It doesn’t increase. And therefore the total amount of bandwidth that is being sucked up doesn’t isn’t eroded and therefore employees continue to have the slack that they need to stand back and think and reflect and learn about the work rather than just do the work. It’s what I call in the book, the tea party test, um, this idea that, you know, the total amount of.
Well in the tea parties, case legislation, doesn’t sort of passively accumulate over time. It’s exactly the same with work and organizations. You, if by all means, choose on alternative or another priority, but you can’t do that at the expense of the overall, um, you know, amount of work that’s on. So, so if something’s going to be added to the list, something else that was already on the list needs to be taken off it.
And it’s actually, by the way, amazing. When you say to people, okay. If you want that additional thing, that means you can’t have one of the things that you said was really important. It’s amazing how that focuses minds. Um, and an awful lot of people go, oh, okay. Well, in that case, I don’t really make that.
Naji Gehchan: And did the dude, did you find, uh, a good cutoff cycle to force leadership to go through the exercise and take, if you add something you, you take on something else or because you know, one of the things I’m always amazed by how organically things boil up and after like three months of clarity, if you don’t keep on having the same.
Discipline. Right. And coming back and making sure that it’s really focused on two, three things, organically things grow, right? Like it’s, it’s, it’s always the case,
Elsbeth Johnson: such a good point. And it, it that’s that organic growth is essentially the thing that you’re trying to, uh, I mean, a bit like a Gardner is always trying to kind of keep the wildness at bay.
Right. Um, so one of the things that we always encourage is, uh, Sure leaders to kind of take a cold, hard look at themselves in terms of, you know, are they, are they helping create and protect slack for their managers? But we also, um, encourage managers to give leaders feedback on exactly that point. When we have a set of diagnostics that we run in these organizations to say to test things like how much bandwidth has been taken up, um, to what extent is your leader giving you additional priorities that, that, um, that suck up the time that you previously had as slack.
And, um, and if we get a signal that, that that’s becoming a problem, then that’s the kind of red flashing warning light that says to leaders that they probably need to go back and, and prune the activity.
Naji Gehchan: The last word above the reaction is spread love and organizations. What’s your reaction to this?
Elsbeth Johnson: I mean, I suppose, I mean, obviously this, it, this is the total of your organization and, and, and it perfectly encapsulates the ambition of the organization. Um, part of me just feels really sad that we even have to say this and spell it out because I mean, I mean, I love the word love.
I mean, I love how, how kind of, um, Because I’m sure in some jurisdictions that that must feel a little bit edgy to people, but, but I just feel like what would be the alternative, what spread hate, um, you know, spread antagonism. Um, so I just feel almost kind of, I almost feel sad that we even have to have to for this to be the invocation, um, because you know, the, the most effective leaders, um, are the ones who.
I mean, they might not describe it as spreading love, but they’re certainly spreading, um, you know, respect, um, you know, they’re spreading the talent, they’re sharing their skills, that teaching people that, as we said earlier, that bringing on that next generation of leaders. So. For me, um, I feel kind of sad that we even have to ask for this to be done in this explicit way.
Um, but I just think that’s a pretty damning indictment of about what, you know, what that says about the leaders who get promoted and a lot of the organizations that we see
Naji Gehchan: any final words of wisdom for all of you. There’s this thing there, the word.
Elsbeth Johnson: I think I would say two things. I think the first is, excuse me, and this might not be a word of wisdom. And just the kind of word of warning is that very often in organizations, we confuse confidence with competence. Um, in other words, the people who walk into our office and you know, are incredibly eloquent and, you know, sell us on an idea.
Um, Yeah, it’s perfectly possible that they are incredibly passionate and competent and their idea is the best thing that they’ve ever worked on. It’s also possible that they’re just incredibly. That they came through, you know, a private school, Ivy league education, and they’ve acquired the trappings of confidence and it has got absolutely nothing to do with confidence because the really dangerous thing for organizations is these things are not necessarily.
They’re not perfectly negatively correlated either, but, but, but when we conflate them and think that when we see confidence, it must mean that there is competence. That’s a very dangerous assumption. So I think that’s the first word of warning. The second thing I would say to all of those leaders who are out there thinking, Hmm, I’m not really sure that I want.
Like it feels a bit icky. Um, uh, and there might be some people that are particularly, um, particularly women, I think have, uh, have, uh, a bit less of a natural inclination to seek positions of power. Um, I think I would, I would just remind people that unlike every other type of power, social power, Uh, you know, the power of, um, networks or, or, or, um, or authority, um, positional power is a zero sum game.
And what I mean by that is if you have, if, if, if you and I are both going for the, for the top job and you get it, it means that I haven’t got it. So let’s make sure that the organizations that we’re putting. Give the positional power to the people who are most worthy of holding it and exercising it and using it for good, because if all of the good people who would use positional power, well, if they all take themselves out of the game and say, oh, no, no, no, no, no, I don’t want positional power.
No, no, no. I don’t want power of. Then the only people, the only candidates for positional power positions will be the people who just want to be senior rather than those who really want to lead and lead for the best. So I think that would be the final thing. I’d say, make sure that, that if, if you want to lead for the best reasons, make sure that you’re working out how to get your hands on positional power, because it is a zero-sum.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much, Elizabeth, for such amazing discussion, the great tips that you gave us to be better leaders and go use all that we can do for us to change the world for the greater purpose.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
This episode is very special! In partnership with ESCP Business School, I’ll be giving the mic to students, our leaders of tomorrow, to discuss with incredible healthcare executives about their journeys and leadership beliefs.
Hello, I am a specialized master’s student at ESCP Business School in Paris and I am honored to host Dries Hens in collaboration with Spread Love in Organizations, who is in a mission to transform healthcare, continuously improving patient outcomes with previously unavailable insights.
Dries Hens is a medical doctor and a successful entrepreneur. Dries knew he did not want to go toward clinical practice, but still wanted to remain in the field. He wanted to do more in healthcare, by making the most of all the unexploited data. In parallel to his studies, he began to set up his company: LynxCare Clinical informatic. Dries is currently Co-Founder, Chief Business & Medical officer. Actually, Lynxcare transforms medical data into insights for hospitals, physicians and patients.
“Hospital system is on an edge: today we have a lot of relevant data, almost everything is picked up but the next challenge is: what are we going to do with it?”
Dries Hens: Thank you. By the way.
ESCP Student: Thank you. Uh, you have a once month that you wanted to do more and have cared and being an ethical doctor, and you wanted to do something that would have an impact. Can you tell us why you have this vision and how that assimilated to the thing beyond medicine?
I would love to hear about that.
Dries Hens: Yeah. So, uh, it’s uh, of course a long story, but, um, in terms of impact, of course, I have to say that that medical doctors really working in hospitals have the real impact of treating patients, but, um, After med school. So I studied, uh, like energy medicine. I did it in Belgium.
Uh, after seven years of med school, you have two choices or you going to specialize, for example, in orthopedic surgery, or you become a general practitioner, um, But for me at that time, uh, I prefer to dirt option because I was really intrigued by the health care ecosystem as a whole. And that’s why after med school, I started to, um, yeah, doing biopharmaceutical management and yeah, fire this program, I learned really how the whole healthcare ecosystem works from life science companies to hospitals to insure Speyers.
Dries: Uh, and this is where I saw a lot of opportunity really leveraging. Yeah, my education into a more broader, uh, complete story, uh, of really changing healthcare. Um, and at that moment I was still studying in Paris. So my co-founder contacted me and he said, let’s do something in medical data. And yeah, I was directly convinced of the added value that better healthcare means better data.
And there’s still a lot to do, like you said, in need introduction. And that’s why we started the company straight out of philosophy. Which is right now, a scale-up with 35 people. Um, and it’s a really nice, nice potential and they story
ESCP Student: and to do other regrets with.
Uh, yes, she was the path of, uh, non medicine. Uh, uh,
Dries: exactly. So, yeah, it’s a question that I got, uh, yeah, a few times during my, uh, the course of the company. So everyone, the beginning, a family friends of course found it really weird that I was, uh, not specializing or not further advancing really to become a healthcare professional work in hospitals, directly with patients.
But, um, The moment that , and that’s also how I am personally, the moment that I was convinced of the ID and that we had the bigger goal to serve with our company and that I could have maybe an even bigger impact by starting this company and trying to successfully, uh, I’m trying to successfully yeah.
Build up this company, um, that we could really have a, a further division or mission is being that we want to improve health care by making sure that more and relevant data is becoming, uh, actionable, uh, towered healthcare professionals to. The first use case that we did with our company, we directed, demonstrated that our company really can, uh, in case, uh, healthcare outcomes without me being really directly involved in the patient, uh, uh, process.
And that’s why from that moment on, I didn’t look back and I didn’t have any regrets that I’m not active in the hospital.
ESCP Student: That’s nice. And what made you the leader you are today and how are you preparing the floor to the young leaders of tomorrow?
Dries: I think, um, um, of course it’s so still young. I’m now 32 years old, but, um, the big, yeah. Stepdad, you have to learn because we co founded the company with one co-founder. So we were too in the beginning, but our company grew quite exponentially.
Uh, the following years going to five to 10 people then going at 2 35 people. So, uh, your position as well as, uh, an entrepreneur, but also co-found the changes along the way. Um, and I think my. Biggest path of learning, uh, internally as well was, was more self knowledge. So you have to know really, if you want to become a leader or you have to know what you’re good at and how you really want to support the company.
And you have people that are really good in daily management. On a daily basis managing people within the organization. Uh, but this was not really my strong point and by being transparent as well to investors or to my other co-founder of course, um, we were, um, yeah, the heck the, on a path where I could be more motivational and inspirational to young people in the company, uh, by letting them, uh, in, in, in the field of healthcare data and trying really to push.
Uh, to blossom, uh, in our organization, which in my opinion is crucial. If you want to make sure that, um, your company succeed, you have to make sure that your organization and the people really working in your organization, uh, can blossom professionally. Uh, and this is still, I think the biggest impact that you can have as a, as a leader.
ESCP Student: Thank you. Address. And based on what you just said, can you link who you are today with an event that shapes you in the.
Dries: Um, can you, sorry, I didn’t understand the question.
ESCP Student: Um, can you link who you are today with an event that shaped.
Dries: Um, of course with, with, with a single event, that’s of course difficult.
Um, you have to know if you start a company, uh, or, or scale up company to really a coaster. So there were multiple events that, that shaped, uh, what am today and, and how I am, um, pursuing my professional and personal life. Of course. So it’s always a balance, um, thing, the biggest event. That changed me professionally is really something personally being, uh, yeah, the, the birth of my first daughter.
So my first child, uh, which really gives me, or gave me the necessary, uh, how do you say the necessary, uh, Hawk eye view on the cost to a helicopter view on the company. Uh, and which, in my opinion, makes me a better leader professionally, because I could zoom out into problems that are not really relevant.
Yeah.
ESCP Student: That’s amazing trees. Uh, you also mentioned that you started, uh, your, uh, your career from scratch with a few people and you made them. So let’s talk about your first hiring experience. Can you tell us about it and, uh, uh, what was the impact on the evolution of links care?
Dries: Yeah, so, um, the first real hire that we did is still someone that works in our company.
I remember 12, the, uh, because we, we were on a budget, so my co-founder Josh is CEO of the company. So he is the executive leader of the business in all transparency. But, uh, the first guy that we hired T actually did his internship straight during university as well with us, the moment he finished, uh, school.
It was really, um, yeah, we knew that we had to get that guy incentivized. And as of today’s still the lead data engineer in our company, really making sure that the platform is, um, how we are seeing it as a school founders. So that really, of course, was a big impact into a company. And he is still one of the most important people as well in our organization.
ESCP Student: And deal with the true leaders like you, they will, they will always stay. Uh, now, uh, how about the fundraising? How challenging did you find that to, uh, to establish links care?
Dries: Yeah, so, um, we had S and you have to know, uh, five, five years ago when we started the company. Healthcare data was something that people knew of, but a lot of people thought that the importance of what we are doing was not really there.
Um, but, uh, Josh and I, yeah, we kept going and we kept really convinced, uh, for our vision and our mission that healthcare really needs better data. And then of course, uh, COVID 19 QA came, uh, two years ago where. In one moment everyone saw from whether you worked in healthcare or not. Everyone saw the importance of having good data in order to, for example, control a pandemic.
Um, and that moment for us was, uh, was a real game changer. Um, also business-wise because, uh, yeah, our business model for our company, uh, pivoted a little bit, uh, in that case, and that was a accelerator. So to come back to your question, being fundraising, that. The first three years, it’s really difficult for us as a company.
It was not that easy, um, to really find the right investors because, um, the problem or the problem was not that’s. How do you say visible, uh, through the whole industry? Uh, two years ago, when COVID-19 hit, everyone jumped on what we were doing, uh, and we are still doing so fundraising right now for us comparison with Tibet four years ago is a lot easier.
Um, And I have to say. If you, for example, start a company and everybody says you have to start your company with, with family and friends, capital, et cetera. I’m not a big fan of this because I’m not a fan of mixing personal with, with professional life. Um, At first, you really need to have champions in your company being business angels, who already did this before and who can guide you to a first bigger round with, with, uh, venture capital.
Uh, and that’s just crucial, the moment you hit the right metrics, raising funds in the time where there’s a lot of money, a lot of, uh, cash, uh, on the banks to invest that that’s not the most difficult one. It’s the zero to one that is really. The most, uh, the most difficult funding process in my opinion.
ESCP Student: And did that being a true leader, doesn’t also it doesn’t on here. And make people blossom, but really to, to face the challenges and keep going. Uh, now that you have, uh, in non traditional non-corporate path where a medical doctor, you founded and launched your startup right after graduating from the STP, can you give us some tips for that?
For the young graduates on how it should either an entrepreneur has no age limit?
Dries: No, exactly. It doesn’t have fast, no age limit. In terms of being an entrepreneur or being, or starting a company in the dependent on, on whether you just graduated or you’re already spending 10, 15 years in corporate life is, um, by really being convinced of something.
Um, and being convinced of an ID is simple, but you have to have also on a personal level, the drive to really, um, go all in. And this is where for a lot of people, this is a step difficult to make. In my opinion, I see a lot of great people that have great ideas, but will never, um, yeah, never jump out of their golden corporate cage in order to develop that idea.
But, um, but this is yeah. Something where I as well, want to play a part in and try to convince those people, of course, with the, with the right when, when the market and the company and the business model is, is clear, uh, try to push them to, to becoming an entrepreneur because it’s, uh, not the life that everyone thinks of.
So it’s not the most, uh, Easy life, to be honest, because I think a being or having a startup is often, um, romanticized to our, how do you say it in English? Uh, it’s really at all at Cosa, but you, you have to be ready the moment. Of course you can validate your initial ID or you can validate, uh, the mission of why you started this company.
And you could put it on paper that you realized it, uh, this ID, this is I think in my opinion, the most, uh, compelling story to, uh, to start a company. But you have to be sure whether or not it’s not age-related, but you have to be sure that you see opportunities this first, uh, and you see, or describe risks as challenges to overcome.
Another lot of people, uh, do it in that order.
ESCP Student: Thank you. Now, we would like to jump to another section. Uh, we will give you one word and we want to get your reaction. So we will start with purpose.
Dries: For me. Purpose is a yeah, it’s a way of living. Of course, you could see pers purpose as a professionally or personally. For me, it’s, uh, the purposes of course, to become happy, to stay healthy. And in that view, my purpose as well as if I start a company or with links care, what we really are doing is, uh, really try to optimize healthcare, uh, in a way of using better and more data.
So for me, the main purpose being. Healthy being active and being happy for the three points that are crucial in everything I do. So a, there will always be of course, a link, uh, professionally and personally, but this is what I, what comes up to me when I hear purpose. Yeah.
ESCP Student: So it’s probably, uh,
Dries: Leadership for me is, um, the best leaders are invisible at the moment that the company goes well, because if you have a lot of young, talented, or not only young, but talented people in your company, uh, and the company goes well, then they deserve all the credit to, in my opinion, true leader is when some things are not going well in a company that steps up and gives all the tools and support necessary.
Uh, to make sure that the internal issues or problems are being solved and that’s for me, truly leadership.
ESCP Student: What about technology?
Dries: Technology is a mean to, uh, to achieve a certain goal. For example, links care. We are really technology, product driven business. But the real capital or the real value is still in the people working in our organization.
So I think technology is always a mean to go from place a, to B, but it shouldn’t be the end goal.
ESCP Student: How about.
Dries: Yeah, a great, a great project, you know, a great program, you know, that, um, really, uh, yeah, always happy when I land in Paris or London to give the year the courses, I think. Um, yeah, if I speak personally, I think that everyone that studies medicine or studies from these should have during his education, the opportunity to.
To be, uh, included in a certain track. Like we have at the MSM, uh, thirsty bay for me, it was a game changer because yeah, in six months time, you really know. Quite well, how healthcare ecosystem is working, but also by seeing so many professionals talking about what they do at their company, you can really, um, make up for yourself what really interests you as a person and where you think you can blossom.
Because again, I think leadership starts with knowing what you’re good at and pursuing in something that you’re good at, of course, a true leader as well notice weak points. And then it’s. Are you going to solve them yourselves or are you going to be surrounded by team members that can make up for, for your, uh, for your floss?
Yeah,
ESCP Student: I totally agree with you. And now we will end up with the word spread love and organizations.
Dries: Yes. It’s spread love. Um, if I’m looking at a. The trajectory that we did with our company, because that’s the thing that I know best with links scared in the beginning. Yeah. It’s, it’s really chaotic. And especially if you don’t have too many people, uh, in your organization and you have to do a lot of work then, um, yeah, I can, I can look back.
Of course. As well see that we made Atlas, uh, uh, as, as the beginning founders of this company, by maybe pushing sometimes people in the company too much, because we have a lot to do a lot on our plates and we didn’t make enough time maybe to, uh, Yeah, to really support people the right way. And this was really, uh, as well for me, a learning exercise, um, by yeah, creating the time and really creating as well, an environment where people, um, can get to the necessary support and feed.
But, um, in all honesty, this is of course, something that you can do from a certain scale in the company. Don’t I think it’s not that easy to do it directly from the beginning. Um, but if I would start again with my company, um, I think. The much more, um, susceptible as well from a management perspective to how our coworkers or the people in our organization really, uh, feeling.
Um, and by, for example, two years ago, there was an experienced CEO joining our company. And the first thing that. Was he implemented a survey system where each, I think each month or every two months, uh, all the people can, uh, can fill in a survey and we can see how happy they are with the workload, how happy they are in the organization, what they want to do, et cetera, et cetera.
But that gave us so many insights related to. The better as well from a management perspective in the company. Um, and that would be something that I directly as well, which would switch, implement, uh, know,
ESCP Student: I can agree, uh, any words of wisdom, trees for leaders and entrepreneurs and healthcare around the world.
Dries: Um, of course as a true leader, I just want to not only incentivize people, but for me, um, we are taking big steps in healthcare. In general. There are a lot of big companies transforming the way, how they are looking at healthcare.
Uh, I think it’s a positive evidence. We’re really value-based health care comes into play hopefully in the next two to three years. Um, it’s, we’re still not there, but, uh, I’m convinced that everyone that listens to this, as well as, uh, everyone that works in the industry works for insurances, but also works for, um, yeah.
In, in, in hospitals, the real healthcare providers, um, and everyone really, uh, It’s aligned in a value based healthcare model. Um, and that’s for me, something crucial for the coming years.
ESCP Student: Definitely. I can totally agree on a attest to it. Thank you for sharing your experience with us today. It was such an inspiration.
We can really spend hours with you and never get enough. Thank you so much for your time.
Dries Hens: Thank you. It was my pleasure.
Naji Gehchan: Thanks, Dries, thank you all for listening to spread love in organizations podcasts. We have such an important responsibility as leaders of today to plant the seeds for the leaders of tomorrow.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to Spread Love in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this podcast, joined today by Dr Robert Bruce Associate Chief of Clinical Affairs at Boston University School of Medicine, and Director of Primary Care at Boston Medical Center (BMC). Prior to those roles, Robert transformed healthcare in the New Haven community focusing in the largest health center in new haven on quality and value based care which resulted in significant savings for CT Medicaid and the community. Doug was also Chief of Medicine at Cornell Scott-Hill Health Center and Associate Clinical Professor of Medicine at Yale University. He is a global expert in substance use disorders in people with HIV and hepatitis C. He has published widely on the topic of substance use disorders and HIV. He has provided technical assistance to CDC, NIH, and the United Nations.
Doug – I am so honored and humbled to have you with me today!
I would love to hear your personal story, from childhood to becoming an expert in HIV land hepatitis C living with and helping some of the most touched countries by those pandemics. What defined your journey and the incredible leader and physician you are today?
Doug Bruce: That’s a great question.
So, um, I grew up in the Cambridge kind of Boston area as a little kid, and I grew up and had lots of pulmonary problems actually. So I had like lots of asthma and what’s in and outta emergency room all the time. And so. I had some really good pediatricians and some not so nice pediatricians. And so at an early age, I thought, you know what?
I wanna be a doctor. I wanna be, I wanna be one of the nice ones but I wanna be able to help people. I want to be able to bring, um, joint and comfort. I, I realized that. What stood out in my mind as a child was not, oh, this doctor has more knowledge than that doctor. Right? It was more just, oh, this doctor seems to care about me.
Now, this one seems like I’m a widget. Um, I wouldn’t have said widget when I was a kid it was kind of the feeling. So I, uh, for a long time, felt like. I really wanted to be in healthcare. Um, my faith is really important to me and I realized when I was working in the public hospital system. So I, I went to the university of Texas Southwestern med school in Dallas.
And I worked at Parkland Memorial hospital, which is a big county hospital system. And I was taking care of marginalized populations of groups of people. Kind of, you might think of were forgotten by the system and began at that time, it was the aids epidemic was working with people with HIV, people, with substance use disorders and, uh, saw all kinds of things that, um, I felt like there were great inequities and great trials and tribulations that people were facing.
And that one of the jobs of being a physician was to be an educator, but also an. And so after I finished my training in Dallas, I went to Yale university and did a graduate degree in philosophical theology, um, because I wanted to read widely and think, and be very reflective about the care of those groups of people.
And then started working with the LH program and providing street level care for substance users and people with. And from that began developing programs and then working internationally with marginalized populations to try and systematically make things better for people who may not be able to advocate for the.
Naji: You, you have served, uh, Doug in countries hit hard in moments where few innovations were even existent for those diseases to treat those patients. Can you share with us your experience stories, learning that you take with you today leading in healthcare systems in the
Doug Bruce: United States? Yeah. So, um, I guess two, two things stand out.
One. I spent a fair amount of time going back and forth to Ukraine and what’s happening. There is a tragedy when I was in Ukraine. Uh, one of the trials that we faced was how siloed healthcare is, and we know that healthcare can be siloed in many countries. And so my time in Ukraine taught me that creative ways to try and overcome.
Seemingly impossible silos. So, uh, just concretely, for example, in Ukraine, if you take care of drug addiction, you’re an oncologist and you’re not allowed to prescribe medications or offer any treatments outside of your narrow scope. So like unlike in America, right? I’m not a psychiatrist, but I legally could prescribe psychiatric medications and Ukraine.
If you’re an oncologist, you’re not describe. Treatment for tuberculosis, even if your patient has tuberculosis, you have to get a special doctor, APH physiatrist who will do that. And then that person is divided between those who do it on the inpatient system and those who do it on the outpatient system.
So I kind of learned in that environment, just the critical need to begin asking questions to talk, not just to government officials or healthcare officials, but stakeholders. And, and I had known that in the, in the. Aids epidemic stays in the nineties and the importance of stakeholders, um, and importance of voice and people giving people agency and voice.
I think what I learned differently was also, um, sometimes the way to get to the truth is you have to just talk to so many different people. And that’s what blew my mind when I was in Ukraine. I didn’t understand the limitations and I. Because people were not forthcoming. I represented a government or I represented a university and people felt that they had to answer me a certain way, but when I would go talk to drug users or people with HIV and community, people were very forthcoming.
They’re like, ah, no, this doesn’t work. Or this is the real problem. Um, and like a classic example was when I was in hair song Ukraine, and we were just talking about like TB adherence rates and it was just, it was really difficult to understand. Like what the problem was because on one hand, like there are no problems, but eventually we got to the realization of, oh wait, you can just walk up to the pharmacy at the TB hospital and by part of a TB regimen.
So what, what we found out was like, if you were a substance user, you would go and get admitted to the hospital. You’d had no treatment for your heroin problem. So you got sick, which meant that you left, but you had started some treat. Your new treatment was important. So after you left, you could go to the pharmacy, but TV treatment was for medicines.
So you can’t afford four medicines, you buy one medicine. And so that helps you feel better until you get drug resistance. And so it was kind of this systematic problem, but it was very difficult to get at it through one lens. And so I think that was one thing that was really important to me. And I carried that with me when I went to Tanza.
And the need for stakeholders. So, um, an example of this was, um, so in Tanzania there’s a big heroin epidemic. That’s kind of really fed into the HIV epidemic. And we had a situation where those most at risk for HIV were female sex workers who also injection drug users. We had very, very high rates like in the survey samples that they had done, like over half of the women had HIV.
So we’re trying to get them into treatment on meds. You. But when you looked at the clinics, the clinics were mostly men that were providing services. And so what did we do? We had to go out and actually meet with the women and talk to them and find out like what’s going on. And they brought up just very logical reason, right?
Like what the clinic doesn’t have the hours that are convenient for me. Right. Cause the con the clinic had morning hours. The women were sleeping cuz they’d been up all. Uh, with their trade over, over the evening and using, using substances. So we had to think about, well, how do we lower the threshold so that women can get in?
How do we create a safer environment? What do we do with the men that are loitering around? How do we create an environment that’s, um, safer women. And, and that was based on the feedback from, from the women.
Naji: Uh, those are, those are powerful examples that, that you’ve, uh, led. Uh, so how, how do you ensure like this curiosity, but also this need actually to go on the field, understand what’s going on and bringing it back and change the system because you practically had to change systems to make this work for patients.
Doug Bruce: Yeah. So, um, I mean, I. You have to tailor it. Right. But to, to your point, just, just because someone recognizes the need doesn’t mean that they’re willing to help. I mean, an example of this is, um, we were showing that the tuberculosis rates among the patients in that first drug treatment program in Tanzania were very, very high.
It was not surprising. It was one of those things. You know that there’s a high probability that, that this is gonna be the case. Substance users are using drugs together. They’re in closed environments, inside poor ventilation, HIV increases your risk of tuberculosis. So the probability is that there’s gonna be TB among the substance users.
The there was no active program to search for TB. So one of the early programs we did intense and after we set up the drug treatment program was to check for HIV, offer HIV therapy, but then it was to start trying to be active in, uh, searching for tuberculosis. And so a, a student of mine went out there and, uh, started doing active case finding and the teams in Tanzania supported this.
So they were all really interested in. And part of the team’s interest, as you can imagine, was they didn’t want to get TB. And so, um, it was kind of playing off the enlightened self interest of this is a real material patient concern, but if there are high rates of this, this is a real material concern for all of the healthcare workers in that environment.
Cause. I mean, we didn’t have, they weren’t in 90 fives floating around for everybody to wear for TV prevention. Right? The main TV prevention is great ventilation, open windows, staying outside, um, where UV light kills it. So that program found that there were high rates of TVB like, not as high as south African mines, but like 20 times higher than the national average of tens.
So very high rates and eventually. You know, it’s not surprising, right? So you change your infection, protocol, infection, prevention protocols, you have better ventilation yet. Don’t put people in isolated environment. And, uh, eventually actually the TB program from the university hospital system in Tanzania started spending time taking care of patients.
And so it changed the system. But in this case, it was playing off on that enlightened self interest, which also paired with the patient. But then we tried to get, you know, external funding from a separate government agency that for all intensive purposes, you would’ve thought would want to fund this. Cuz their enlightened self interest would be like, oh, like you can get credit for this, but they didn’t wanna get involved because a different agency was funding.
The, the larger work that we were doing. And so they were worried about, they never said this, but it became apparent that they were more concerned about. Uh, who got credit for the activity, then the activity itself, which is very disappointing. So I wasn’t able to, to change them. They’re they’re much bigger than me.
Naji: well, yeah. And it touches to all those lenses. We, you know, we both learned in, in class mm-hmm um, the, obviously this is a huge impact that you had in, uh, again, in countries with. Tremendous need and in moment of crisis, uh, obviously in those countries, uh, I would love to get another leadership learning from you as you led teams there.
So you had students, you had physicians who were working with you, uh, and it’s kind of potentially also relatable to so many folks. And you went through the COVID pandemic yourself as a, as a healthcare provider. How do you lead teams in such moment? High pressure, attention, uh, emotional, uh, struggle and really life threatening diseases that you’re dealing
Doug Bruce: with.
That’s a great question. So I think probably the most important thing that I did in Tanzania, um, was to come in, in humility and say to the teams, cause like I’m a guy from the United States coming in. And I’m, I’m hoisted upon the people and people there, and they’re, they’re smart physicians there in Tanzania.
And so it can be very, uh, off putting, if you are, you know, a academic in the local university there in Tanzania, and some guy shows up from the west and says, I know more than you do. Right. So what I had to come in initially in the, even in the beginning meetings to say, I’m only here because I’ve done this before.
I have a body of knowledge. And so my job is to, to impart that knowledge and to work with you, but you have to figure out how this is going to be in contextualize in Tanzania. I’m not Tanza, I don’t know the local politics. I don’t know how to do this here, but we’re gonna work together to be successful.
And so I told them from the outset. I, there will be a day when I don’t come to Tanzania anymore because you won’t need me because you will be the experts. And so I think that resonated very strongly with them because they had been through, as you can imagine, a series of kind of us government funded activities, where people come in, kind of tell people what to do and set it up.
And, and it’s not as value driven from the, the people there. And. What I saw in my role as was just, I’m kind of your consultant, I’m your, your information person. And I’m really here to support the team, but you’re gonna actually contextualize it. And so a lot of that then became more about empowerment, more about working with the leaders to say, um, so like kind of an example, They were very worried about overdosing patients, which is a, a legitimate concern.
This was a methadone program in Dar Sal lump Tanzania. So they are keeping the doses really low. And so what that, what that happens is if you don’t give somebody adequate replacement therapy, they continue to use heroin, engage in risk, but they were afraid to go up on the dose because they thought, well, if I give the person more methadone and the person continues to use heroin, they can.
Which kind of is a logical fear, but the reality is as you go up on the methadone dose, they go down on the heroin dose. So, so I said to them, look, you all the very smart people. Why don’t you, um, just set up a small mini trial, just take some proportion of the patients, go up on their doses and see what happens.
You don’t have to make it a clinic-wide policy, but just use it as an opportunity to learn. So they did. Right. And this is this, I’m not like announcing this. I mean, this is just like private conversations with people and they did that. They went up on doses. Patients stopped using heroin and they were like, this is amazing.
And then the next thing I know, they have generalized that throughout the system and then they’re really dosing patient. But again, it was, it wasn’t about me coming in saying, this is what you have to do. It was. Let’s have a conversation and let’s talk about our options and why don’t you consider this kind of a pilot project.
And so I think humility is the most important thing that I learned in interacting, especially in international projects, because so often people are coming in again and just kind of telling people what to do, and then that’s so devaluing. Right. But as I talked to them and said, You’re the experts. How would, how do you, how do we do this intensity?
Like, what are we facing? How do we address this? It was, I think it was very empowering. They eventually set up training programs there where they were training additional physicians and, and who are now leading other programs, which was exciting. Um, but that’s something that I then took back to Boston and, and to other places of just, um, never underestimate the information and the power of the person that you’re meeting.
Regardless of education, regardless of position, they have something to teach you. And, and that, by valuing that person and partnering with that person, you can make a lot of change, more change than you thought you could. And it’s a great
Naji: pivot to my next question. You talked about humidity empowerment.
These are really strong, strong words. As a leader. In the last years, you’ve been focusing on innovation, operations, optimization, practice transformation, like all those large change management projects in academic, uh, medical practices in the us. So what is the main challenge you’re facing today and how do you lead through those large organizational
Doug Bruce: changes?
Yeah, inertia is a huge problem. I’m just amazed at how physicians, nurses, medical, assistant administrators really almost feel like the system can’t change, or if the system can change, they view it as, you know, one or 2% on the margins. Um, they view it through the current lens that they’re that’s, they’re passionate about volume value.
Um, Finishing my charting, right. Not spending the evening doing that. And so I’ve found it challenging to kind of help people understand that, wait, should you reconsider the entire paradigm here? You’re like, you’re living in this soup in this swimming pool, whatever you’re in. Maybe you should get out of it.
Like maybe we would need to completely rethink things. Um, and so some of that has then. You know, as I always do in a new environment, you spend a whole lot of time just talking to people, surveying the faculty, getting feedback, and trying to create an open door policy. And then also trying to help people understand.
Look, I’m not gonna take it personally, if you come and tell me that the system is dumb and it’s broken, like I’m, I’m, that’s fine. I want information and I want information so that we can make it better. But I would say like, inertia is a big thing and, and the pandemic. In many ways, because the pandemic was this push into the lives of people where people felt disempowered, they felt hopeless.
Like there’s this external factor and I can’t fight against it. And I think certainly where I’m working now, people have transferred that into their work environment. Some that, um, you know, my clinic got flipped from, in person to telehealth. I didn’t have control over that or. Alerts keep coming up in the electronic health record.
And I can’t control that. Or, and so there’s this sense that I’m powerless and because I’m powerless, I’m not really engaged with change management because I’m kind of hopeless about change. And so a fair amount of what I’ve been trying to do is find some small wins to show people that change is possible, but change is possible when we work together, change is not really possible.
Doug Bruce by himself trying to make change. Right. That’s completely ineffective it’s as we work together and come together that we can make change. Um, but fighting against inertia has been painful.
Naji: And this is a very interesting insight because as you said, pandemic has challenged all of us, right? And many would think that it challenged us in a way to change that now will be sustainable change, right?
Like from work from home and the hospitals, all telemedicine the speed of developing drugs, et cetera. But I’m hearing from you, the state of mind of healthcare providers today is not that like I heard. Hopelessness. We’re not powerful enough to make those changes. Where, why do you think that as we know, there is a huge mental toll on, on healthcare providers.
And many times I’ve shared it before we applauded them in the beginning of the pandemic, but actually didn’t change much of the, the struggle they go through, uh, after a couple of months. Right. So what do you think is happening and how can we do it as healthcare leaders across the different, uh, healthcare industries?
Doug Bruce: Yeah. Well, I, I think the, one of the things that I’ve been trying to do is actually apply some of those lessons that I learned in Tanzania and into academic health centers, because, um, academic, medicine’s a very hierarchical system where people don’t feel like they have voice or agency, um, and, and promotion systems and things can be somewhat opaque.
And so trying to give people an opportunity. And so some of that is. And this is seemingly silly, but I think people have found great value in it is personally replying to the emails that people send me. Right? Like I’ve, I’ve, I’ve heard what you said, you know, or taking time to you have a question. Well, let’s set up a call, let’s have a conversation about this, you know, do you wanna mean person?
Do you wanna meet on zoom again? It’s it’s really trying to be responsive. And then to be honest, I mean, the thing that I’ve been trying to tell people is like, look, I’m I’m, I’m not gonna lie to you about this. I’m gonna just tell you where it is and it could be. Your issue is completely legitimate.
Unfortunately, like right now we don’t have resources to address it, or we don’t, we can’t address it. We don’t have the technology or it could be like, I’ve got this fire over here and we have to address this fire before we can do this. And the faculty, I think at least in the feedback they’ve given me is that they’ve been very appreciative of the transparency and the honesty, um, because that builds trust.
And so then when there’s some trust and then you. We can do this. Like, Hey, like we can, like, there’s a pathway forward. We can make this change and make it happen. Well, people start to say, well, Doug’s been honest before. Maybe he’s being honest about this. Maybe he’s not just saying this, like people have said in the past to try and motivate us.
So we see some more patience. Um, so I think building trust through transparency and honesty is really important. If we’re gonna start trying to help healthcare providers. Get out of some of that inertia and hopelessness and feeling that they don’t have voice and they don’t have power. And so we have to create opportunities for voice and agency and we have to listen to that.
And then we have to be responsive to that.
I love that.
Naji: Uh, I, I would give you one word and I would love to get your
Doug Bruce: reaction to it. So the first
Naji: word is leadership.
Doug Bruce: I guess when I think of leaders, I think about people who get on the front line and work with and like, or in the, in the middle of the battle. Right. I don’t think of leadership as detached from what’s happening. Um, the, the most success I’ve had in leadership has been. On the front line, learning from people, teaching people and changing the system there.
Innovation,
I think increasingly when I think of innovation, I think I would say I used to think of that as change, like modify the current system. And I, I think of that now as creativity I think more and more of innovation. What’s a better system. Like just what’s a completely better system. And so I would say I’m learning in that space again, having a breadth of people speak into that is really important because of the, the realization that I could say the current system is bad.
Let’s make a new system, but it shouldn’t. My new system, it should be our new system. And so well, who are the, our, and so often, like the physicians in the practice will say, what’s, what’d the doc say? You know? Well, what, what about the nurse practitioners and the PAs? What about the nurses? What about the medical assistants?
What about the front desk staff? What about the stakeholders? What about the patients who are the actual people who are coming right? And so the more that we branch that out and the more that we give agency and voice, I think the more we can be truly innovative and have something totally different, um, which is what I’m now thinking more about as the word innovation, just making it completely different and better intellectual
Naji: property.
And it comes from a debate we had
Doug Bruce: Yeah, I think so. I, I really do believe that you need to protect intellectual property. So I’ve changed in my view of this, right? Like I, I was in the, probably more supportive of act up and like, Get meds to the world. I still believe that we need to find ways that we can get medication across the globe, to everyone who leaves it.
Um, the, the very reason that we did a methadone clinic in Tanzania versus anything else was because, um, it’s the cheapest thing to do. It’s also the most effective, which is kind of rare that the cheapest is the most effective, but it was incredibly effective, but because it was cheap, we could treat more people.
And, you know, in public health interventions, it’s really about treating large numbers of people. If you’re going to make a difference, right? If, if we only vaccinated 10% of America against COVID, we really wouldn’t be having the kind of successes that we’re having now. So public health interventions, especially with infectious diseases require large scale intervention.
I think that if we don’t protect intellectual property, people will not be innovative. They will not create completely new drugs. They will not create completely new solutions. I mean, I’m amazed when I started taking care of people with HIV, they were fists of pills that were incredibly toxic and horrible life limiting side effects to now, now, today, like, I mean, this is crazy to me.
It’s easier to treat HIV than high blood pressure and. Like I, if you had asked me in the nineties, in the middle of the aids epidemic, you know, someday HIV will be easier to treat than diabetes. I would’ve said you’re nuts. Like that’s just not gonna happen, but it happened because people, because let’s be honest, right.
There was a profit motive in, in doing that the same with hepatitis C. Like I never thought that we would be curing people as easily as we can now with hepatitis C treatment and. I want to preserve the intellectual property that helps foster innovation for companies to make a profit, because that’s why they’re innovating in the first place.
I just wanna find a way where we can, that those medications don’t just stay in rich countries. And then the patients that I care for in, in other nations of the world, who are people too, and who have I. Dignity as people and rights to good healthcare that they can’t access it just because they were born in a foreign country.
Right. That just doesn’t seem right to me. Um, but I do fear that if we just do away with IP in these things, or we fight against them, then people will say, well, why, you know, we’ll invest our money in real estate or something. And I don’t want, I want people to continue to invest in developing great medications, especially when there are some serious diseases still in the.
That we need people to be innovative about. I mean, malaria, for example. Yeah. What about
Naji: spread love in organizations?
Doug Bruce: Well, I think that, I mean, that kind of goes to everything that we’ve been talking about. Right. Um, I, you know, one of the things I, I tell healthcare providers who can be so serious sometimes , I’m like, you know, if all we do when patients come is tell patient.
How they failed in everything. They failed to lose weight. They failed to take the medicines. They failed to like, go get it. Just whatever, like who wants to come see anybody? That’s that negative? Who wants to come see the healthcare provider? Who’s like, yeah, you, you failed come back. Um, and my own life.
Right? So my, my doctor told me one that, um, cuz I was like, I don’t wanna exercise. Why don’t you just give me a statin for my Cho. And like the guy looked at me and was like, you’re a smart guy. Figure it out. Like just go exercise. And I didn’t go see him for a year because I was like, I wasn’t exercising.
And then I like exercised two weeks before I see him. So I could answer the question and be like, yeah, I’m exercising. And he didn’t even ask me. I was so upset. I was like, really, but that’s not necessarily a productive healthcare relationship. And so when I think of spreading love, I think of spreading love, both among staff.
So one of the things that I do often is I try to remind every member of the staff, their vital importance. So I’ll tell the front desk staff, like you’re the first point of contact when people walk into the clinic, like your role is incredibly important because that’s gonna set the tone for the rest of the visit.
If I’m mad after the front desk, I’m gonna be mad when I talk to their medical assistant, I’ll be mad when I talk to the nurse. I’m mad when I talk to the doctor. So, and then empowering medical assistants, like you are getting a proper blood pressure as like real material, healthcare consequences, like your role’s really important.
And so I think part of spreading love is helping people know that they are valued and that they’re not just parts of a machine and that we, I can flip a switch and easily replace you. It’s like, no, no. Like you are bringing you to work today. And you are valuable and you are important and what you bring is important.
And so I think as people feel that value as they feel that like coming to work’s really important, I like, I need to go to work today. Well, why? Cause I’m really important that then spreads to patients, right? If I’m really happy and experiencing joy in my job, because people hear value and care about me, I spread that to patient and that’s infectious.
I mean, I like infectious disease. Right. But like it’s really infectious. And so I think we just need more and more to do that. And it just starts with saying you have dignity as a person, and I need to treat you with dignity. And as I do that, I’m spreading well,
Naji: I love that Doug. And, you know, I, I thought a lot and you kind of touched on the four letters that I sometimes use with love.
It’s listen, observe value, and empower you. You literally talked about all of that. Thank you so much for those amazing examples. Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders
Doug Bruce: around the word?
Uh, I would say be creative, be a listener and be humble. The, you know, I I’ve had, um, high school educated substance users, um, teach me things. I’ve had people with multiple doctorate teach me things.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to Spread Love in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this episode joined today by Dimitris Bertsimas Professor of Management, Operations Research, and Associate Dean for the Master of Business Analytics at MIT.
A faculty member since 1988, Dimitris’ research include optimization, stochastic systems, machine learning, and their application in different sectors including healthcare. Dimitris is also a serial entrepreneur, he cofounded several companies like Dynamic Ideas sold to American Express, Benefits Science, a company that designs health care plans for companies, and MyA health, a personalized health care advice company.
Dimitris has coauthored more than 200 scientific papers and several books. He has received numerous research awards, including the William Pierskalla best paper award in health care.
His work in healthcare through analytics contributed to improve many patients’ lives, and still more to come!
Dimitris – I am humbled to have you with me today!
Dimitris Bertsimas: It’s a pleasure to be with you.
Naji Gehchan: First, I would love to hear your personal story from electrical engineering, to math, computer science and analytics, and now being a serial entrepreneur and MIT professor what’s behind this impressive journey of yours.
Dimitris Bertsimas: Well, um, I was born in Greece and came to finish the computer science department there graduated in 95 and then came to the U S at MIT in that year of 1995.
And I have been at MIT ever since I finished my PhD in eight in enjoying the faculty that. Uh, so th there is, um, but back in my childhood, I mean, uh, there is, uh, my, both, my parents installed in me the idea to, to Excel in whatever one does. Um, so with these preconditions, um, we see something I try to do, I try to do as good a job as I can.
Um, then, uh, when I find myself in. In the, um, in the Boston area and at MIT, which is, uh, an environment that, um, sort of excellence is a given, uh, I thought, uh, and inspired by the, by the environment. I, I thought that it might be. Um, a reasonable idea to apply what I, I study and I do research on in the real world because in the end of the day, I, I believe then, and now that, um, the best theories are those that solve the problems that originated with theories and other results.
I have been involved in the beginning of the nineties in. In this early in the financial sector of Boston, Boston has a very strong one of the strongest in the world asset management area. But then later in healthcare, healthcare in Boston is very strong. Some of the best hospitals in the world are here.
So the combination, therefore of my predisposition to effect, to have impact, to matter, to affect the world, the environment at MIT that, um, uh, motivates people. Uh, for all ages to do as good a job as they can, and the opportunities that are available to somebody like myself, um, and, uh, who has both the mighty connection, deep connection, and it has an entrepreneurial spirit, um, to achieve these objectives.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you for sharing that you have a passion for healthcare, and you mentioned it’s here, um, as your work contributed 3d to change people’s lives on many of the research and the work that you’ve done. Why healthcare? Why is this passion specifically for this sector?
Dimitris of yours.: Um, at some point, um, I definitely have a predisposition to have impact, but, um, and in the beginning of the 2000, there was an opportunity with a close friend of mine to start a company called who also in healthcare. Uh, and I started, we started the company. Oh, my, he was doing well at decisive point was also that my parents also got sick.
My, I lost my father to cancer in 2009. She got sick in 2007 in the same year, 2009. I also lost my mother. So this is a period of roughly middle age. When you, you think about your. And, um, and you observe that, um, what is important. Um, and I thought, um, affecting the lives of people in a positive way is more important than, uh, perhaps making money and making rich people richer that I was doing when I was.
In an earlier life when I was working in finance and services. So I, I’m not that I have any negative opinion about these matters, but I definitely believe that, um, researching the and helping people to improve the lives, um, is a value is a worthwhile effort. And I have also observed that with the evolution.
All for analytics, namely the data in electronic form in healthcare, the opportunities are significantly higher than they were in the past. So, um, that’s some of my, um, aspirations.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, and we definitely share this similar purpose of making life better. And in healthcare you would frequently, I think you met with people who share this purpose, uh, deeply, uh, you, you start talking about, uh, data, uh, AI and what this can bring to healthcare.
So there’s obviously a huge hype on, on this, on big data AI and how this will disrupt the healthcare industry. You know, those trendy words these days, you’re obviously an expert there. I would love to hear your thoughts about
Dimitris Bertsimas: it. Um, so let’s take an analogy. Um, in, um, I was involved, um, in financial services in the late eighties, early nineties using quantitative approaches, analytics, beta, and so forth.
And, uh, it can have a significant impact in the field, um, in healthcare. The availability of data and electronic form of, uh, both fractured and unstructured, electronic medical records, uh, computer vision scans, uh, language is starting to become increasingly available. I would say in the last decade. Uh, so if you think about human doctors and how they, they, uh, reach decisions, uh, diagnosis and, uh, and prescriptions regarding their patients, they definitely involve data of this type electronic records test.
They do scans, they read reports that they read. Uh, recently genomic information. So it makes reasonable sense to me anyway, to utilize the same type of data that human doctors do to, uh, to make these predictions with a difference that computers, unlike. Typically don’t get tired. They are, they have less bias.
Maybe they might be biased on the developers, but, uh, of the algorithms, but, um, but nothing else. So it makes sense, you know, rationally to consider. The use of methods that have been unusually successful in other areas. I mentioned finance services, but you know, energy production, if you think about energy production in the world regarding why we have electricity today, and it works quite well, and I leave the keys behind it and we use of data and so forth.
So it’s makes sense that, um, given the availability, um, to, um, to attempt to do that, Um, and of course, many people realize. And when people try that, there is a complexity that unlike other areas, we are dealing with humans, both human doctors and human patients. So therefore other elements besides data, mother, understanding what drives them, understanding the culture, how they react to compliance that’s um, that makes it as what are some more active.
Um, in addition to being potentially. Can we double
Naji Gehchan: click on this because I love how you frame it, human doctors. Uh, I dunno if it’s compared to computer
*Dimitris Bertsimas*: doctors that something, that’s my that’s what I expect in the future might be at least in assisting doctors. Um, so, okay.
Naji Gehchan: Can we talk about this? Because many times we see innovation, some would see innovation as, you know, disruption, or like the end of.
Certain type of jobs. So you shared the complexity of it. Like, what is your vision about it? Shouldn’t be afraid as healthcare professionals, uh, from the technology or embrace it. What is your
Dimitris: view on this? We have seen disruption innovation in many industries over the centuries then. So it’s definitely the case that the type of jobs change, but humans are not replaced.
Take for example. Doctors, the medical education in the world has not changed primarily since 1920s. When John Hopkins introduced the care and structure of training doctors, the appendix, the append, this type where data doesn’t play a significant role. Um, this is, uh, I think in my view, this is about time to change because it makes good sense, given that the technology has now advanced, it might be not yet at the level that we can trust it a hundred percent, but it’s definitely has improved dramatically to train doctors in this way.
Therefore, it’s not that we’re not going to have human doctors. Of course they were going to have, but they are going to be in my office. Uh, the doctors of the future will be drained, trained differently. They are trained today in addition to anatomy, in addition to, um, do what they learn at the moment. And the experiential aspect is very important.
I think understanding. Uh, data and their exploitation using machine learning AI, I think it will be part of the story and programs in digital medicine. I, I already observed them reluctantly being in some universities, but I believe it was. Main stream in the years to come. And if you train young people in this way, this will take a generation.
Don’t take me wrong. It’s not going to be simple, but I have little doubts that in 10, 15 years, uh, the experienced patients will have in visiting doctors. In assessing, um, what will happen to them from a healthcare perspective would be quite different from what is today. But I do not believe that this would replace humans.
It will just be an adaptation of what the doctors do as opposed to replacing them.
Naji Gehchan: Well, you shared a in the class, I had the opportunity and pleasure to be in, uh, in, in your classes. Uh, great examples on how data and AI really transformed, uh, some of the care for patients, uh, and things you worked on. I would love if you can share one or two of these examples to give tangible.
*Dimitris Bertsimas*: So, um, I have a long collaboration with Hartford hospital. Um, hospital in connected cars and have for healthcare in that we have implemented, um, and, and, uh, machine learning, AI approach that, um, predicts for every patient. The length of. The probability of mortality, the probability of, um, going to ICU, leaving the ICU.
So in other words, for every patient in the hospital, based on the data they have, based on who is updated regularly, because there’s new information, the hospital, we basically can, um, make predictions about. The future and why this is relevant. Suppose you observe a patient. As we have that. The, the mortality probability we used to be, let’s say 2%, 1%, two days ago is now 3% today, 5% tomorrow.
So even though these are still small numbers, In the scale of things, the fact that our increasing might reveal and condition that human doctors, it’s hard to, it’s hard to observe. And in fact, in this particular case, this particular person developed, uh, an infection that was slowly developing. And the fact that we’re able to observe this, the album picked up the increasing probability gave you opportunity to doctors to actually attend to this.
Uh, even though the algorithm in other words was not designed for this purpose, the fact that you can use it in this way helped the outcomes. That’s one example. Here’s another example. I have been involved for a decade now in a company called benefit science that you mentioned its objective is to design healthcare policies for large organizations in the United States, but also around the world.
Healthcare is primarily the responsibility of the employer. So the employer typically provides the funding provides healthcare and they typically self in soar in that, but they also have to decide what type of plan. So rather than basing, only on demographics benefit science looks at actual data to design.
What is the best quality of policy of a policy? What combination of health savings account, um, PPO plans, HMO plans. To maximize quality subject to a budget. And we have found that, um, the companies, um, save money, but the quality also increases. Another example is another company that you mentioned, Maya health, my analytics health, that takes the perspective of not the company, but the patient.
So, so let’s say you are, um, you have a health savings account. So what is the best way from a to. Um, to monitor and optimize your health. For instance, if you want to do an MRI, what do you do the MRI? If you, because the price is very, very significantly, the quality of care at various places for various specialties also, uh, significantly changes.
Data provides you an objective view of reality. Data can allow you to, um, to basically take the bias out and make more objective and overall better. So this is an example from hospitals to two companies to patients. And it’s really endless. I could go on give you many other examples. Yeah. Thank you.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you for those.
You said data gives you an objective way to look at things I want to, I want to get into more leadership, uh, discussion. With data. And my first question on this would be when you shared the example, for example, uh, on, uh, on the healthcare, uh, hospital or the institution you worked with, uh, we always see reluctance from healthcare providers from experts.
Uh, whenever there is data saying something. And we don’t really believe or buy into, right? Like the model is wrong. No, it’s different. You know, we even see it in our industry is when we talk with different countries, like data shows something, but you always have, oh no, we are an exception. It’s different here.
How do you deal with this? Have you seen this and how do you deal with
*Dimitris Bertsimas*: it multiple times? There is skepticism that comes from culture, but also sometimes correctly. I mean, you deal with significant decisions about patients, life and death, this situation sometimes. So it’s appropriate to be skeptical. So in this particular experience with Hartford is I was fortunate to have met, um, two people.
Uh, there were four men, executive MBA students. I met them in the classroom. Uh, who have leadership positions in the organization? Um, Barry Stein and RJ Kumar, both of them are in the leadership of the Carrefour healthcare hospital system. And, um, I had the opportunity therefore, to be introduced to them and at least start in a relation of trust with these two gentlemen and over time, because I started working with people.
And then so forth. Um, there, the level of trust increased dramatically, a particular important moment is that I gave a class to about, it was just before COVID. It was 2000, January, 2020, just before March. Uh, and I gave a lecture, a set of lectures, um, to about a hundred professionals about the art of the.
We are the other possible in healthcare and this educated many people at the senior level physicians, nurses, administrative personnel, um, about what can be achieved using data and analytics and this open the door. Even for example, we, we developed a model for COVID, uh, for trying to help, uh, hospitals.
Size their ICU needs given that you don’t know how the, how the disease will develop. So the fact that they were already seen the benefits and the realities of analytics. Mainly leaders in the hospital to at least approach it with more trust. Of course you have to verify, but, but the door was open and therefore the method had an impact in the hospital.
It allowed them. Two sides. The ICU is not only my main hospital, but the eight hospitals of the, of the system, uh, and the rest was relevant. And the trust is not only at the leadership level. Healthcare is local, no matter what the CEO of the hospital says in the end, the decision maker is the nurse and the doctor who, who are, who are in, um, Near the side of the patient.
And if they go and that’s what you’re going to say, it doesn’t matter who supports. So my experience therefore, is that, um, the, the literacy aspect allows. The missile contact, but then we, we, the way we developed all these methods is that even today on a weekly basis with various groups, with the patient, the doctors that attend to the patients, the doctors that attend, um, surgeries, uh, surgeons, nurses, and so forth, we have weekly.
So as a result, when somebody asks, I don’t explain, they explain and it’s much more effective if your colleague who is, of course you have a decades relations whom you trust say something, it has a different gravitas. And, um, I have found that, uh, Understand, you know, understanding the culture of the environment and gaining trust, not gaining trust by, by basically demonstrating to people that we, first of all, you, you trust their opinion.
For example, if the algorithms benefited from their comments and if this, if this happens, it’s not anymore, the album I developed is the algorithm that we have. And that’s how it is presented. So I would say this is a combination of leadership from the top, but also literacy from the base. Uh, and in some cases, one is much more effective than.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, that’s that’s great. Um, you, uh, well, we had Barry in one of our episode, various time for the listeners who want to know more about his story, you shared Demetrius about, uh, all this power of data and really how they impacted lives and the most recent example with COVID, as you said, Um, there’s all this informed.
Decision-making also that as leaders we can do now, even better with all the data that we can, we can process. How do you see leadership? In fact evolving? Based on those data analytics algorithm that we can use. Do you see it changing or will it change? And what is the role of leadership overall and this a
*Dimitris Bertsimas*: massive word of that to set an example from yes.
So yesterday, one of the largest, um, Italian companies contacted me with the idea to they, they decided to increase, uh, the digital, uh, aspect in their company. So the use of data throughout. Right. I mean, they have no groups, but they have this desire to do it. So they are asking me very detailed questions about my experience on that.
So here’s a company that is not really not. It is not, I mean, yet they are thinking about, and this is of course the story of many other companies. It’s not that this is an exception. Um, I expect it has already been happening. It’s not even if this is not even a prediction, I’m probably stating a fact. Um, it is already today, but I think it’s going to increase in the future that I’m a chief digital officer.
It’s if analytics officer, there are multiple names and so forth, we’ll, we’ll be at all that many companies already have, and we will be fulfilling in the future. That would be the accurate reporting to the. Which means if, you know, typically a CEO of a large company has 10, 10 direct reports, um, you know, 10, 15, no more than that.
And I believe that one of them would be that that officer, it already is happening in many companies. I know. So it is my. And this is also by the way, through the hospital systems that I collaborate people that have responsibility on, on data and analytics report to the hierarchy of a company, the highest echelon of the company.
So it is my view that this is already happening and it’s going to increase as a result. Another instance of that. Is this access that the master of business analytics program that I started 2016 has had over the years. So currently the program has of, uh, maybe this year 1600 applications for 80 positions.
That’s a 5% selectivity. There aren’t too many places at MIT that have that level of applica application. And I would expect that in years to come, um, the demand for MBA. We’ll be lower than the demand for people with that. This experience has already happened in many places, not at MIT yet. So currently we applications for MBAs, roughly double, maybe 3000, 3,500 versus, um, 1600.
But, but I think this gives will meet as they have met before, because there is a high. I observe and I don’t observe it now. I’ve been observing it for decades. That’s why we started the analytics program. Uh, I have been observing it and in healthcare, I would say definitely I see the need. I see, uh, places, some of the major hospitals having one or more analytics group.
So it’s definitely, this revolution has started.
Naji Gehchan: I know, not to jump into a section where I will give you one word and I want your reaction, a word or a reaction to what happened to the word that would mention. Uh, so the first word is leadership.
Dimitris: Commitment is the word that comes to mind, um, and understanding.
Naji Gehchan: Can you tell us a little bit more, I’d love to hear a definition
Dimitris: from you. Yeah. Um, I believe that, um, the way I see it is that I better like the work on analytics, which is the science of using data to build models. That make that lead to decisions that impact the world positively data models, decisions, value, uh, AI is nearly a synonym in that it also uses, um, data sources, not traditionally utilized.
For example, computer vision. Um, languages, language, you know, answer actual data, but, um, the process, which I believe is our future, our collective future, using data to make decisions that impact the world.
Naji Gehchan: What about personalized medicine?
Dimitris: Personalized medicine is, is, um, also, uh, a very bright, an aspiring future.
If you can, only medicine is by and large, not personalized. This is what, one of the major reason in my mind that we haven’t been in cancer yet. Um, so if you look at how, um, one of these major killers in the world cancer is, uh, I lost my father to that is being treated it’s more or less a size 50. I had this, you, you, you diagnose somebody with cancer.
You give them some protocols that has been, uh, have been developed for, uh, for everybody, not the personal, uh, human, a significant human. We observed very different outcomes. In my personal case around the time that my father was diagnosed with, with cancer, gastric cancer, there was a lady friend of my father who was diagnosed with exactly the same disease and, um, sees a, to.
Um, and see what’s the same way, but it worked for her. It didn’t work for my father. So it is if there’s overwhelming evidence that, um, personalization mothers, I mean, we already see, I mean, we observe that some women, for example, have mutations that lead to development of breast cancer very early in their life.
Uh, at least in this case, we have taken action, but it’s hard for me to believe that cancer is not one disease. It’s multiple diseases who have an composite in one, in one name, and then they meet personally. The attention. This is not only about cancer. I mean, you know, think about, um, think about impact of COVID.
There are many people have COVID very few die, but, but, uh, clearly there’s personalization aspects. I mean, humans are different. They have different genomes. They have different. Even cultural components. They have many different things, diabetes. I, who do I start? I mean, you know, I, I think medicine, when I talk about this is all medicine and personalized medicine.
Uh, these are medicine can lead to personal life.
Naji Gehchan: And we’ve been, we’ve been hearing a lot about personalization in medicine, but yet it’s, we’re seeing a little bit more personalized care. Uh, but what do you feel is in the way, is it truly time technology and time that will get us there? Or do you feel like there’s something else?
Dimitris: I mean, um, the key aspect is education. Thinking about how we educate our doctors. We have not changed the education of our doctors since the 1920s. It’s a century ago. If you look what people learn, um, then, and how they learn it, you know, Does not play a significant only vis education. So when you educate young people, very talented, the doctors are fantastically talented people.
I do not believe they are appropriately educated at the moment. So as a result, you have to educate them in the art of the possible of personalized media. We have some successes. If you, if you educate a large collection of intelligent people, um, so that their mind goes into that, they start doing research, they start doing developing new methods.
Personalized medicine will be a reality, but you have to start. And I would say the key is, in my opinion is education and it’s starting, but you know, it takes as everything in life. It’s not. It takes some time
Naji Gehchan: and it’s, but it’s definitely a future we should aspire for. The last word is spread love and organization.
Dimitris: And organizations you would like you ask, you want to ask do as my reaction, you know, I, you know, in my view, uh, love is this most significant aspect of human happiness. Um, so specifically I say to my, uh, to my students that the two most important aspects of life is to find somebody to. And to find something that you love to do.
So love is in there in the definition of happiness. So spread love is in a way, um, aspires the way I understand it to increase the overall happiness of receivers. As well as givers of love and my, uh, I mean, in a way, one of the reasons I, um, I mean, there’s no security. I love working with my doctoral students.
I have a sizeable group of very young, very, very talented young people. Um, and the big aspect of our relation, at least on my end is luck. So, um, And as I mentioned, um, it increases my happiness increases. There’s
Naji Gehchan: any final words of wisdom? Uh, Demetrius for healthcare either is around the word.
*Dimitris Bertsimas*: The only, uh, the most significant in my opinion is, um, to, to make change. You have to have. Um, sometimes you enter an unknown, you know, utilizing data. You never know what you’re going to find. You might actually find that one or one of your departments using data.
It’s not doing a good job, but on the other hand, if you don’t know it, it still does it not a good job, but you don’t know it. But if you allow open your mind, And, uh, allow data to enter over time. Fantastic things will happen to patients, which is our ultimate objective as, as health professionals, but also to ourselves, to the hospital, to ourselves.
I think our life would, um, would be, I would say in a higher plane.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much. Uh, the interest for being with me today and this amazing.
*Dimitris Bertsimas*: Thank you. Nice to be with you.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to Spread Love in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this special episode in partnership with MIT Sloan Healthcare and BioInnovations Conference, an event that brings the Healthcare Ecosystem Together. I am joined today Assaad Sayah, President and CEO of Cambridge Health Alliance. Assaad was named CHA’s President and CEO in January 2020 after serving as the interim CEO since June 2019 and chief medical officer since 2013. Before that, Assaad served as the chief of emergency medicine and senior vice president of primary care. In the Emergency Department, he led tremendous advancements at all three CHA hospitals, resulting in enhanced efficiency, quality, volume and patient satisfaction. He spearheaded primary care growth by more than 50 percent, expanding CHA’s access in underserved communities and integrating primary care and behavioral health services and systems to address social determinants of health. Assaad also plays a key role in CHA’s commitment to the communities it serves, including his tenure as the co-chair of the Cambridge City Manager’s Opioid Working Group established in 2018 to develop recommendations for strengthening the city’s response to the opioid epidemic. Additionally, Assaad is Assistant Professor at Harvard Medical School. His research and publications focus on operational efficiency, improving the clinical environment and patient experience of care.
Assaad – I’m humbled to have you with me today!
Assaad Sayah: It’s a pleasure, Naji. Thank you. It’s, uh, truly an honor being here.
Naji Gehchan: Before we dig in, value-based care, the topic of your panel at UH, S H B C, I’m eager to hear your personal story. What brought you to Medicine, er, and now running Cambridge Health Alliance and having such a tremendous impact on the communities you serve.
Assaad Sayah: Well, I appreciate it. Um, um, and, and, uh, it’s a long story, but I will keep it abbreviated. Uh, as far as medicine, um, this is, uh, calling, uh, I, as far as I can remember, I always wanted to be a doctor even before I knew what doctor’s all about. Um, I am the, uh, first, uh, college grad in my family. Nevermind, uh, a medical, uh, uh, professional.
Uh, and, uh, I have the, uh, truly the, the, the privilege of, uh, of representing, uh, my community and, and my ethnic background. I am Lebanese in origin, um, in the, in the greater Boston area. Um, medicine, uh, to me is, is truly more of a calling than, uh, than a profession. And, uh, what, what got me into emergency medicine?
Is two reasons. One, um, I am an adrenaline junkie by, by nature. So, uh, uh, anything, uh, that, that, uh, that’s up and running and, and exciting, I’m into it. And, uh, the second and more important thing, um, it is truly doing the right thing. Cause historically and even, uh, currently the emergency department is the only place where anybody can get care, regardless of their ability to pay 24 7.
And, uh, you know, this is a place where you get care and then we ask you for your insurance card versus anywhere else. Uh, as far that I know, you, you have to present your insurance card before you get your care, uh, for whatever it’s worth. That’s what brought me into, into emergency medicine. Uh, what got me into, um, Uh, into administration is curiosity and, um, uh, my, uh, difficulty in accepting things, not working very well around me.
So I always ask the question, how can we improve things? How can we do things better? And when you ask those questions, people say, well, go at it. If you can do it better, go ahead and give it a try. The more you try, the more you do, the more people ask. And one thing led to the other. And here I am, the c e o.
Wow. Thanks so
Naji Gehchan: much for sharing. Uh, let’s start now with value-based care. Uh, how would you define
Assaad Sayah: this? So, uh, value-based care, um, is, uh, is the combination or the formula that combines. Quality and cost. So if you, if you wanna say value equals quality over cost, the higher the quality, the better the value, the lower cost, the better the value.
The worst situation is an environment where you have low quality and high cost, no value at all. So you wanna improve to the best that you can, to the best you can, the level of quality while managing the cost. And, uh, the difference between, uh, Current value-based care and other attempts at managing healthcare cost is, is the equation that involves quality before.
Because if you go back to the nineties, uh, during managed care, it was only managing cost and there was no alignment of incentives. And with value-based care, one would think that the incentives are aligned between the patient who want the best quality. The organization that wants to provide excellent quality and get the best reimbursement and the payer that wanna manage cost.
And hopefully that combination is the magic sauce that will lead to the best work and the best healthcare environment.
Naji Gehchan: So you’re touching, uh, you touched upon those, um, the key players. So can, can you frame specifically who are the key players and what really needs to change today for us to be able to achieve?
High value based care.
Assaad Sayah: The, obviously the, the, the, the, the three major players in healthcare. I mean, there’s a lot of players you will add the government and policy makers and communities, et cetera. But the, the, the three big buckets are one, uh, the consumer, that’s the patient. And that’s the most important piece of all of healthcare.
We are all here for the patient to do the right thing. And the patient, what the patient wants is great quality and the best experience possible that is timely. Um, and that there’s a level of commitment and trust. Cuz trust is absolutely critical in healthcare. What the provider wants is, uh, the appropriate resources to provide.
The needs and meet the need and exceed the needs of the patient in an efficient way. And that requires funding and the right policies and the right pro, et cetera. And the right training. And what the payer wants is a partnership with the provider where when they give the provider the resources, cuz the payer doesn’t, uh, practice medicine.
The payer is basically the vehicle between the patient that’s paying premium. And the provider that’s providing the care, and they wanna make sure that as the care is provided, provided, it is provided at a good, qu good cost at the good price. The new paradigm is adding quality to the equation, is putting certain metrics, uh, that are reportable, that are measurable, that at least directionally define the level of quality that is provided.
Naji Gehchan: So do you think we’re well equipped? As a society to get there and, and really I would love your thoughts on health equity within the scope. Yeah.
Assaad Sayah: Um, we still trying as far as value-based care and in my opinion so far it is the, the best formula that has the highest probability of success. Um, Believe it or not, healthcare, uh, in general in the United States is all still, um, fee for service, which means you do something, you get paid for it.
Just like, you know, when you, when you call a plumber or electrician to your home, they come, they do the work, you pay them, they’re done, but you don’t know, you can’t evaluate the quality of their work. It could be great for the first day, the first week, the first year, but it could falter after that. And that’s basically fee for service.
There’s an hourly rate. You get paid for it. The incentive in here historically is the more you do, the more you get paid, but that’s not good. At the end of the day. You wanna make sure that you get the best quality, the best value for that job that you are giving to your plumber. Let’s, let’s say that. In the value, in the, in the, in the value-based care, basically, you get paid a certain amount to provide a certain amount of care at a high quality.
So the best way to cut down the cost is provide less. Care or enough care, but with the highest quality possible. And that’s how you manage the level of the cost of healthcare. That’s really going above and beyond. It’s always almost 30% of the G d P today, and some reports say that it’s higher than that.
So it’s gonna break our society if we really don’t manage our cost. Now, when you add the, the equity to the form, the equity piece to the formula, And as a healthcare organization, we are the only public hospital in the state, and our mission is to serve a, a safety net, uh, population historically and continuously.
And that population historically has been underserved and, uh, under-resourced at all levels, including with healthcare, uh, because one. The, the demand is greater. Uh, this is a patient population that has a lot of complication, whether it is mental health or social determinants of health, food, transportation, housing, you name it.
A lot of this patient population is, um, first generation immigrants. Many, uh, they don’t speak English. They have issue, issue with housing density. Many families are, are living in very small sh very tight knit, tight quarters. So there’s a lot of challenges in here. They’re all working, uh, difficult, many low paying jobs to really make ends meet.
Which complicate things. They complicate the ability to get healthcare. They complicate their ability to get, uh, to be transported there, to make certain appointments, to take time off of work. Uh, when they get there, their ability to communicate, understand, and follow directions, ability to get medications and follow medications.
That patient population is very complicated anyways. Not only the immigrant patient population, but also. Uh, the, the patient population that, that is, um, uh, less resourced from multiple ways, whether it’s financial, societal, uh, education wise, or even their ability to have access wide. Um, that’s what equity, uh, uh, plays a big role because historically, uh, we have not invested as a society.
In improving the condition, the, the living condition of, of that subpopulation so we can provide them, so we can keep them healthy and not only care for them when they’re sick.
Naji Gehchan: So can we double click on the, on this, because I know you’re doing a huge work, uh, and impacting those underserved population and you, you shared about social determinants of health.
So can I, can I get your view about this and how you have been leading your organization specifically to improve healthcare delivery for those underserved communities?
Assaad Sayah: Uh, one is you have to identify that community. So we are in the community. Uh, we do have, uh, um, 12 clinics out there all embedded in, in our communities.
Um, All our clinics, uh, have, um, primary care and behavioral health, and to a certain extent even dental involvement. So we can provide comprehensive care to the patient when they get care, get their, not start sort of shuttle them all over the place. Um, we have, uh, invested in, um, in our, um, Uh, multicultural department and, and that’s a department that is for the community, by the community that provides not only, uh, interpreter services, uh, but also support in multiple ways, uh, uh, speaking over a hundred languages, uh, out there, available in person and, um, uh, um, sort of virtually, uh, in our, um, Our ambassadors are not only there to interpret when the patient shows up, they’re also there to support the patient in their community.
So, um, you know, if they need their medication, they’re connecting them with the pharmacy, finding ways to get the medication at a discount, uh, or for free, uh, linking them to certain, uh, resources, um, and grants so they can get appropriate support, not only in healthcare. But in housing, housing, food, social services, et cetera, uh, going with them to follow up appointments, uh, you know, advocating for them, uh, when it comes to immigration, law, et cetera.
So they’re involved at all levels, not only to support that community, their community, cuz they come from that community, uh, uh, in only in the interface with healthcare, but in general to make their, uh, their environment more conducive to being healthy. I
Naji Gehchan: love that being, being there with them. It’s, it’s powerful.
I will now give you a word and I would love your reaction to it. The first one
Assaad Sayah: is leadership. Uh, leadership is, um, setting a strategy and creating a team, uh, that is committed to this strategy and to the work that needs to happen.
Naji Gehchan: Tell us more about it. I’d love to hear your story and how you do it with your teams, cuz you’re, you have a large team committed and I’m sure you’re, you’ve gone through a lot, uh, with, with pandemic and even today with everything’s happening around you. So I’d love, uh, to know how you keep your people engaged towards this purpose.
Well,
Assaad Sayah: I mean, uh, the, the, the most important, um, Role of of A A C E O and I call it be being a cheerleader. Uh, you have to be positive. You have to smile, you have to be a resource, you have to be available, uh uh, and you have to make sure that. Uh, you’re surrounded by people that are smarter than you, uh, and that I believe in, in the mission and the work that you’re doing.
Uh, because one person cannot change the world, they cannot, you cannot do the work yourself. You have to provide the environment and the resources for the people to do the work and the space. Uh, for them to do the work. Uh, it includes trust, which is the most important element in a team. Uh, and it includes clarity, transparency, and accountability.
Uh, and it’s a two-way street. Um, you know, I, I work with my team as a family. Uh, God knows we spend more time with each other than their own, their own, our own families. And, uh, we rely on each other, uh, good, bad or or indifferent, uh, every day to really do the work and make sure that we are, um, uh, maximizing and optimization, optimizing the resources we have, the opportunities we have to better serve the community and support each other.
I love it. What about care delivery? Um, care delivery, you know, I, I, I don’t like that word, to be honest with you, that, that, that terminology, uh, because it’s so narrow, believe it or not. Uh, but, but in general, uh, care delivery is, uh, um, meeting and exceeding the expectation of, uh, of the patient in the communities.
And, um, going above and beyond, uh, the healthcare system can do so much and has the ability and resources to do so much, unfortunately, that is not matched with the needs and it’s not matched with the expectations and the knowledge of, of the patients in the community. So we can do, we can do a lot more than than, than we do and, uh, and we should be able to do a lot more than we do.
So, um, care delivery is, Traditionally is the organization that provides care to the patient when they’re sick, when they need it. In my mind, uh, the best way to improve care is to, uh, provide, uh, what’s needed, what’s necessary for the patients to remain healthy in their communities and not need. Prevent them e every time a patient comes to the hospital or most of the time they come to the hospital, it is a failure of the care delivery system in my mind.
So the ultimate success is be out of business, believe it or not, and, and decrease the gotcha the needs, the traditional needs of the patient to really consume the amount of care that they consume.
Naji Gehchan: So true. You’re touching on prevention, how we do it, health
Assaad Sayah: education, absolutely. All of the above. All of the above 80% of people’s health or over 80%.
Happens outside the traditional healthcare system. It is what happens at home. It is the habits that happen at home, whether it’s, uh, smoking, obesity, you name it, drugs, alcohol, psychological issues, uh, food, transportation, you name it. Uh, that’s what influences people’s health. You know, there’s a, there’s a piece that’s related to the genes, what you’re born with, and there’s a piece that’s related to everything else we do to keep you healthy.
But the big chunk of it, uh, is what you do every day. And that’s what we need to invest, where we need to invest in early prevention, in screening, in early childhood, uh, screening and prevention in education of the families and the kids. So they have, uh, healthy habits so they remain healthy. So the third
Naji Gehchan: one is health equity.
Assaad Sayah: Um, health equity is, and this is not equality and this is not, it is basically, um, be thoughtful and purposeful in defining and bridging the gap. Uh, in the gaps in our society between the, um, safety net and the rest of the population, the population, that that has a gap. And so it’s not giving everybody an equal amount, it’s defining the gap and providing extra resources to bridge that gap at all levels, whether it is in healthcare or you name it.
There is equity in the, the digital divide. There’s equity in finances, there’s equity in education, there’s equity in healthcare, there’s equity in culture. I mean, you name it, there’s a historical gap, uh, that happened over decades and hundreds of years that, uh, The only way to, to, to, uh, mitigate that is to provide the appropriate resources to bring, to narrow that gap.
So the amount of growth and the amount of resources has to be exponentially greater here, so we can make up that gap with time. Otherwise, if it’s equal, there’s always be gonna be, there’s always gonna be a gap. The last
Naji Gehchan: word is spread love in organizations.
Assaad Sayah: Um, As I, we talked about trust. We talked about working as a family.
We talked about, uh, approaching things, uh, the way you wanna approach things, the way you should be approached things. And, and I have, uh, certain, um, rules that, that I live by. Uh, one of the rules that you hear about is, um, uh, you know, treat people as you wanna be treated. And, and that’s not my rule. My rule is you gotta treat people the way they wanna be treated.
Uh, because there’s a big difference. You can assume. How you wanna be treated. And, and that may not be satisfactory to others. And I think that’s a very important piece in love because you cannot, when in love, you cannot project your own definition. You have to project the other person’s definition of what love is about because that’s what matters is to the other person, is what they define it, not how you define it.
And that is true across all our society. Uh, and, and, If we approach things the right way, the way we conduct and live our life, not only professionally but with family and neighbors and society, I think that’s what matters is treat people the way they want to be treated.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom has had for healthcare leaders around the world.
Assaad Sayah: Um, do the right thing. That’s another, that’s another piece. Um, and, you know, you’re always cha uh, seeing challenges and, uh, always facing issues that sometimes are insurmountable. But at the end of the day, we are all judged based on the work that we do. And, uh, at the end of the day, uh, the best way to be judged is for doing the right thing and sometimes.
Um, it may not be the most beneficial thing or the most lu most lucrative thing, uh, but doing the right thing always at the end of the day will lead you to the right place.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much. I, I can talk with you for hours, but, but I know you have to go and it’s been a really, an incredible pleasure to have you with me today.
Thank you so much for joining me.
Assaad Sayah: Pleasure Naji, and good luck to you. Thank you very much.
Thank you all for listening to Spreadlove in Organizations podcast! More episodes summarizing the MIT Sloan Healthcare and BioInnovations Conference are available on spreadloveio.com or on your preferred streaming app. Follow “spreadlove in organizations” wherever you listen to podcasts and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement our World so desperately need.
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More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this special episode in partnership with MIT Sloan Healthcare and BioInnovations Conference, an event that brings the Healthcare Ecosystem Together. I am joined today Andrew Plump President of Research & Development and Board Member at Takeda. His career spans nearly 30 years in the pharmaceutical industry and academia. Andrew has been recognized for his contributions to the healthcare industry, education and the arts. He serves on several non-profit boards including the Board of Trustees for the Boston Symphony Orchestra, the Sarnoff Cardiovascular Research Foundation, the Biomedical Science Careers Program and as Chairman of the Board of Directors for the PhRMA Foundation. Prior to Takeda, Andrew served as head of Research & Translational Medicine, deputy to the president of R&D at Sanofi, based in Paris, France. Prior to Sanofi, he served as worldwide cardiovascular research head at Merck. Andrew received his M.D. from the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF), his Ph.D. in cardiovascular genetics and his B.S. from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). He completed a residency in internal medicine and a fellowship in medical genetics at UCSF.
Andrew – I’m humbled to have you with me today!
Andy Plump: Hello Naji. And, and thank you. Uh, thank you so much for the privilege of joining you on this terrific podcast.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you. Before we dig in, challenges in scaling biotech innovation, the topic of your panel at, uh, S H P C, uh, I am eager to hear more about your personal story, really what brought you to medicine than pharma and now leading R n Z at Takeda.
Andy Plump: Well, it, it just so happens the timing for that question is impeccable because this past Sunday I gave a talk, something I’ve never done before. It was actually a mentorship talk to a group of. Emerging diverse, uh, scientists and clinicians and organization called the Biomedical Sciences Career Program or B S E P, I think you mentioned.
I sit on the board of this, this organization, and it’s an organization that’s existed for 30 years. Has about 10,000 members, incredible individuals. Many come from underprivileged or marginalized beginnings, so motivated to, to grow and to make the world a better place in, in life sciences. So I had a chance to give a talk and I was able to unpack some of my beginnings.
And so, so I thought through this and. This is audio so nobody can see the picture. But I had a slide that had a picture of me in my 1970s plaid bath, you know, bath ba bathrobe, um, with my mom at the age of four. And then a picture of me in, uh, uh, tuxedo actually as I was getting married in 1992 with my dad.
And, you know, and I think back, it’s, it’s a large measure to my parents and to my, my upbringing when I start to think about my journey. And there’s one piece of my childhood that was enabled so wonderfully by my mom and my dad that has really carried me through these many years, and that’s curiosity.
I’ve always been so interested and curious in what’s happening around me. And the two stories I told at the conference, which I’ll share with your, your audience, Naji are my mom at the time that I was four years old, maybe three, three and a half, with, in that bathrobe I was the third born. We ultimately had five of us in the family, but the twins were, you know, unexpected.
And so I was meant to be the youngest child of, and I had an older brother and sister who were five or six years older than me in school, and I would just, Follow my mom around everywhere and ask her question after question after question, and finally she looked at me one day and she said, Andrew, It’s time for you to go to school.
And the other question that you know resonated was I told, took my dad aside very earnestly one day and I said, dad, you know, if you could bring the person who had all the answers in the world and give me that person for a full weekend, I still wouldn’t be able to ask as many questions as I have. So curiosity has been what has propelled me.
Naji Gehchan: But thank you for, for sharing, uh, Enzi and I, I love how you’re bringing it, uh, with the fact of being curious. And, you know, I, I was thinking as you were saying this, how many times we actually as parents make this mistake of stopping our kids from asking so many questions. And I, I’m, I’m sure you, you throw.
By asking questions and learning. So now if we go into really the challenges in scaling biotech innovation and what you shared, uh, during the conference itself, I would love first your view on the most exciting current innovations in biotech. How do you define those? How do you look at those personally.
Andy Plump: Well, I, I, we’re in a golden era of healthcare, and if we get it right by the end of this century, we, we can have a, um, a therapy, maybe even a cure for every disease that’s, that’s known to Man. There’s no question we have all of the tools and foundationally there are, they’re the three pillars that allow us to be so bold and aspirational.
Our human genetics, we learn so much. But by dissecting the human genome in terms of target identification, in terms of somatic mu mutations that affect cancers, that’s one. The second is tried and true mechanistic biology that typically occurs in academic laboratories. So thinking through what it takes to generate a hypothesis and test that hypothesis in unraveling biology.
Our ability to do that at scale. And it’s not systems biology. Typically it’s an individual student or a postdoc, really thinking through the details of a, of a problem. That’s the, that’s the academic medical system that exists today. And then thirdly, this explosion of modalities that has come about over in principle in, in particular, over the last decade.
When I started in this industry, we had 90 plus percent of the molecules in pipelines were synthetic small molecules, natural products, or vaccines. Now if you look at the aggregate pipeline across our industry, those three form the minority. We have recombinant proteins, we have genetic therapies of multiple flavors, and we have cell therapies.
And so our ability to put these three together allows us to have the courage and boldness to think that we can tackle any disease. And in fact, the last 10 to 15 years has, has told us that, that with this toolbox we can, we have the potential to do anything that. That we can now, there are forces that work against us.
You know, one, one are intrinsic forces to our industry and it’s greed and avaris and, and behaviors that damage our reputation because we’re a highly regulated. Industry, what, you know, what we do really matters. Not just, it’s not just a business. There, there it, there’s a right to healthcare. And when we are, when we’re egregious in our pricing, when we, um, fail to abide by the compliance and quality codes that countries ask us to abide by, we’re damaging ourselves.
That’s our own intrinsic potential roadblock. But extrinsically, there are many roadblocks and we’re seeing this with. Regulatory agencies, which, which move up and down in terms of their conservatism. And we’re moving today towards a much more conservative regulatory landscape, particularly in the us. Um, there’s reimbursement policies, you know, especially in, in Europe, it’s, it’s very hard to demonstrate in diseases where you have existing therapy, um, that you have a better therapy that, that deserves reimbursement.
Because, because it’s impossible to show oftentimes in head-to-head studies. Um, that you are better and, and that’s what’s being asked of us. And so, so there’s, there’s, there’s this, um, the, the, this tunnel vision, I think that’s happening. We saw this with Ira, was having conversations recently, the inflation reduction act.
There are elements of IRA that make a lot of sense. We need to reduce costs in the US for patients, but there are a lot of elements in the I I R A that will squash innovation. So huge potential, but also, uh, huge, huge headwinds. So let’s
Naji Gehchan: double click, and I love how you framed it and so agree with you on the interest intrinsic, uh, roadblock that that we bring and those external ones.
And when we think about those innovation biotech, we’re frequently think about those nascent biotechs, those startups who are trying. To nail down one of like the most challenging targets, the most challenging technology science. Whe when you think of those, wh wh where do you see the biggest challenge for starting a biotech?
Like if, I want to think from those startups, what are the main challenges for them in 2023 after probably a boom in the last decade? How do you see those these days?
Andy Plump: Well, it, it’s, it’s a terrible time right now for, for the biotech, uh, ecosystem. And the, the, the challenge is getting funded right now.
There’s, there’s, there’s still a tremendous amount of venture capital available, but there’s a, there’s a, uh, fear a bit in, in the market, and so there’s been much less investment in new ideas. Now than there have been in the past. I, you know, we’ve seen cycles like this before, so I’m, I’m convinced that we’ll cycle out of this and that we’ll end up in a better place.
I don’t know if that’s gonna take a year, three years, or five years, but we’re in a particularly depressed market. So funding for biotech is, is taking a, a really big hit. But I think there’s a more fundamental concern, which gets back to my comments earlier around some of the extrinsic headwinds that we’re facing.
It’s just, You know, when you’re, when you’re dealing with more conservative regulatory agencies, more challenging reimbursement, um, environments, when you have the country, the country in the us which is responsible for 50% of reimbursement on our industry starting to really limit, um, access and, and price, um, that’s a problem for biotech because it all.
You know, it all cascades downward. And the starting point for most innovation is biotech. You know, two-thirds of what any pharma company will ultimately bring to a patient in the marketplace starts in laboratories outside of our own. It starts in biotechnology laboratories and academic laboratories.
And so if we’re not funding that and supporting that early innovation, it’s going to greatly damage, uh, access for patients.
Naji Gehchan: So I’d love to double click on the access piece because as you said, breakthrough innovations, uh, and really in a global environment that is becoming more and more challenging to bring those innovations, not only from an r and d standpoint, but once they are in the market to patients across the globe.
How, how do you think about this in a global aspect, again, of those breakthrough innovations for. All patients who need that.
Andy Plump: Yeah. And maybe I’m not using the word correctly. Cause when I’m, I’m talking about for biotechs, it’s not about access, it’s about actually being able to make a medicine, having it approved and having it reimbursed at some level.
And that doesn’t, that’s not, you’re right. That’s not the same as access. And in fact, when I think of access, I think about it in the context that you’re articulating, which is access to the seven plus billion people across the globe. But even within the United States, you know where you have 300 plus million individuals and you have marginalized and underprivileged groups who have poor access to many of these medicines, and we saw that in during the Covid Pandemic.
When you looked at the groups that were most affected by this lethal virus, it ended up that many of the more marginalized, socioeconomically depressed groups were much more affected. So we have an issue here in the United States that we have to get on top of. Of course the issue on the global scale is, is much larger.
You know, many companies have, global pharmaceutical companies will have marketing presences in 30 or 50 or 75 countries across the world. And so more than 50% of countries are not actually represented by commercial organizations. And that’s a real problem. It means we’re not developing, studying our medicines in those other countries, and we’re not bringing our medicines to those countries in in a systematic way.
Um, I think, I think we’re, we’re up and down in, in access, you know, one area where we’re, we’re, we’re driving immense accesses in China. You know, where you have, you know, one point, what is it, 1.4 billion people, which means 1.4 billion potential patients. And you know, What, what the Chinese, the C D E, the C F D A, the regulatory equivalents in China have done over the last eight or nine years.
China has made it a mandate that we, China wants innovative medicines available for its population. And so they’ve overnight, it feels like they’ve changed the regulatory policies to enable development in China, and they, they’re stimulating innovation. So an example, the c d E, the one of the, the F D A equivalent essentially had listed a couple of years ago what they consider the top 50 most innovative medicines.
And they said, we know we, we want you to be developing your medicines in Chinese patients, so we understand how those medicines perform in pat in patients in China, but for those 50, let’s just register them and then you commit to a phase four study to study them after they’re registered because they’re just too important not to be available to patients.
So that’s a great example of a business model for companies. Company stepping in and, and a government really opening up the for, for those individuals. But we have a long way to go. I agree. We have a long, long way to go to, to achieve access at the scale that each of us would, would truly want. Now thanks
Naji Gehchan: for this example.
It really shows this collaboration of stakeholders at the end. And if we really can work as partners, uh, the, you know, co every time I think of this, I think of Covid and how we developed and brought innovation with speed, like vaccines, treatments, et cetera. Cuz we were all together. Uh, As key stakeholders of the healthcare for the patients we serve, keeping the patient at the heart.
You talked about funding. I would love to hear your view about not only funding for biotech, which is a ch obviously one of the biggest challenges, but what is the role of leadership in building up and scaling biotechs?
Andy Plump: Leadership in, in what context? Within the companies themselves? Yes. Yeah, in the ecosystem.
Oh, well, I mean, everything is about leadership. You know, I, and, and I can take, I I’m asking for you to qualify the question because I can take it in so many different directions. You know, I think it starts with policy and how we, as we’re talking about and how, how, how, let’s just focus on the United States, how we create policy, regulatory policy, reimbursement.
Policy pricing policy, that’s leadership, and there’s a trickle down effect if we’re too shortsighted about some of the decisions we’re making. I mentioned the inflation reduction Act, where there are many provisions that are absurd and will destroy innovation. I’ll give you one example, by the way, which is that there are provisions in ira, which allowed.
The cms, which is the kind of federal agency that manages pricing for Medicare and Medicaid products. There are provisions that allow CMS to step in and to negotiate price with a sponsor. That’s okay and and there as long as that’s managed correctly. But that timeline for when C M S can step in and negotiate is different if you’re a recombinant protein or a small molecule.
If you’re a recombinant protein, they can step in at 13 years, and if you’re a small molecule, they can step in at nine years. Why? It makes absolutely no sense. In fact, it should be the opposite because it’s much harder to make a generic version of a recombinant protein than of a small molecule. But the reality is both can be transformative in terms of their potential for patients.
That’s an absence of leadership. That’s, there’s, there’s something behind that. I’ve actually spoken with many former, former officials in the, in the government, several ex FDA chiefs, to try to understand where that’s coming from. And the only answer I can get is there’s, it’s politicized in some way, in ways that I can’t even begin to, to understand that’s poor leadership.
So leadership is important at, at all levels. There’s, there’s also, there’s also something about our business, which I find quite interesting, which is that, Our business is somewhat stochastic, right? You can be, um, you can have poorly run organizations and toxic organizations that can do quite well for a short period of time, and maybe in your career you’ve been in bad situations that you were just not happy as an employee for where a company has done well.
It’s actually very hard in most sectors to sustain yourself for any period of time when you have a toxic culture. In our industry. You’ve had many companies that have been able to do that. Now, of course it’s, it has a runway. If you have a toxic culture, bad leadership, you will. You will Peter out. But in our industry, because our life cycles are 10 to 15 years, if you have a Keytruda and you’re America, not suggesting that Merck is a toxic culture, but that can propel you for, you know, 10 to 15 years and give you an immense amount of funding for that period of time.
And so you do have organizations where you have bad leadership, where you, you see stochastic breakthroughs. Oftentimes they’re not because of brilliance or because of luck, and that happens in our business, and you can sustain those environments, but I’m not advocating for that. But really, if you wanna be successful in the comp, in the environments that we work within, where the, the competition for talent is so intense, especially in your area, Naji in oncology where everybody is in oncology and there’s such a talent, a dearth.
If you’re not leading, if you’re not creating cultures that are positive cultures, you’re gonna, you’re gonna lose there. There’s a great line that now I think every biotech c e o uses, which is, excuse my language, but the no asshole culture right now. But, and actually that was something that 10 years ago, I don’t think anybody was really that concerned about.
Cause everybody was so caught up in that stochastic luck process. But now everybody tries to create a culture that’s strong and, and leadership is the foundation of all of that.
Naji Gehchan: This is a great segue to the next section where I would give you one word and I would love your reaction to it.
Andy Plump: So the first word is leadership necessary.
So I, did you want a one word reaction or did you want a Uh, you can give more. Well, I mean, I’m just shaking my head because it’s very interesting. I’ll take an aside here. Cause you’re, you’re, you’re, you know, you’re, you’re kind of, um, rattling you, you’re sha you’re shaking me, and then you’re, you’re hitting a chord.
So, so one, one of the things that struck me in r and d in our industry is that oftentimes the leadership within r and d organizations, Is more variable than what you see in in other parts of, of our organizations. You know, for example, to be a commercial leader, you obviously need to be smart, you need to be accomplished, but you know, you, you’re often selected more on your leadership.
Whereas in r and d organizations, especially in in highly technical areas, you know, where the pool size of individuals gets to be quite small. Where accomplishments and intellect and technical expertise tend to be valued more greatly, let’s say, than leadership. You’re often seeing organizations promote individuals based on their technical merit merits in intellect accomplishments rather than their leadership.
And so many r and d organizations are mismanaged with, with poor leaders. And, and actually it kind of makes some sense because you’re. You’re, you’re we’re dealing with people who have trained as physicians, who’ve trained as scientists and as engineers and have never really thought about leadership. So I think it’s abs it’s an absolute necessity.
And one of the things I’ve done, you know, I we’ll see if this will work out at Takeda cuz, cuz our we’re judged over a long period of time, is I’ve first and foremost emphasized character and leadership. Technical excellence expertise is a necessity, but you can’t be on my team unless you have strong leadership chops, uh, and strong character.
The next word is health equity a problem. I mean, you know, it’s, it’s a challenge and actually, um, we come out of covid. And there’s the, you know, the, some of the silver linings that come out of the pandemic are a recognition of the inequities that exist in society and what, what make, what’s quizzical about my saying that is, why should that be something that we’re, we figure out in 2022 and 2023, this has existed for decades and centuries.
Um, you know, hopefully these realizations will stick and something that I’ve really. Um, become more and more aware of and more cognizant of my, my privileges as a white male and my responsibilities in terms of being an ally and stepping up. Um, we have a long way to go and, you know, fundamentally it starts within r and d, certainly within our institutions, ensuring that we’re creating cultures that are diverse, equitable, and inclusive.
And all three of them, not just diversifying our, our population, but ensuring that we’re listening and being truly inclusive. That’s really requires learning, education and growth. Um, but then as we start to think about the patients that we’re aiming to serve, you know, if we’re not studying the effects of our experimental therapies in diverse patient populations, we’re doing.
An injustice to, uh, to those patients and, and not contributing to health equity. And so it starts early on in the process. And when you look at, um, when you look at industry across the industry and you look at clinical trials, they’re still nowhere near where they need to be. I think we’re on the right track.
You have guidances coming out of, you know, f FDA for example, and other organizations. So I think we’re all moving in the right direction, but it’s something we all have to own. And I still don’t see that ownership as. Uniform is, is what it needs to be. Even within my organization where we have, you know, there’s a huge foundation and focus on health equity and clinical trial diversity, I sometimes listen in meetings and, you know, it’s not oftentimes the first thing that are, it’s brought up when we’re talking about our program.
I think if we’re really equitable, we’re really thinking about health, equity and access. It’ll be the first or second thing that comes up in almost every conversation, and I just don’t, don’t see that we’re not quite there yet. I love
Naji Gehchan: it. I can’t agree more with you on diversity. Not only it starts internally, as you said, this is parts we can influence immediately, but definitely clinical trial diversity is a big, is a big topic we need to be
Andy Plump: focused on as leaders.
No, on this point I was, I mentioned this talk I gave on Sunday, which is a very, Powerful talk for me. It took a lot of time, a lot of preparation, and I thought a lot about it. It was not an easy talk to give, but my second slide after my title was two people sitting on a couch and in between the two people was a big elephant.
And I said, here the elephant in the room is here I am a 50 something white male. Talking to a group of 500 diverse, aspiring, um, healthcare and life scientists. You know, but, but the elephant, so what can I tell you? How can my experience help help you? And so my, my, my theme was that there are, there’s a perspective that I have that that can be helpful to anybody.
And there’s also a recognition that I have that we all, we all have our identities and our identities will shape. Our, our lives and our career, and for some of us, we’re able to be more opportunistic because of the color of our skin and our gender perhaps. And for others, we just need to be more purposeful.
But it’s not, it’s not incumbent. On just the diverse, marginalized individual. It’s incumbent on all of us to step up and to ensure that we’re helping create more, more equity in the world. And that’s where I think my, you know, my responsibility is as someone who’s actually experienced so much and through a life of white privilege.
The third
Naji Gehchan: one is, uh, symphony Orchestra.
Andy Plump: It’s, I mean, the Boston Symphony Orchestra. So even more specific. Yes. Are you, are you musical naji? Are you musical yourself?
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. Yeah. Guitar and piano.
Andy Plump: Well, so, okay, here’s the story. I went to school, uh, pointing this way cuz Mass is right behind me. And m i t is right after the road. I went to school at m mi t as an undergraduate, and I’m not particularly musical, but when I came to Boston, it was a town.
I mean, it’s, it’s changed so much. It was a town with m i t and Harvard and then Townies, you know, and it had a very unique kind of small town culture, but there was one institution. That was that, put it on a world scale and that was the Boston Symphony Orchestra. And so I, I loved the institution. Um, six or seven years ago, uh, I, we, we actually at Decat became sponsors of BSL because we were trying to, we were trying to imprint ourselves in, in Boston and nobody knew who we weren’t, right.
And it was trying to hire and build an r d organization here. And I would talk to people and they would say, Taketa the airbag company, like, no, no, Takeda. So we needed to, to, to, to market ourselves a little bit. And so we had two opportunities. The Red Sox, the Boston Red Sox, or the Boston Symphony Orchestra.
I’m a New Yorker. I could never, I could never promote. And I’m a big fan of the Boston Symphony Orchestra. And so we became involved and then I got involved in some fundraising and some development efforts, and I realized how how distanced the life science community in Boston was from this iconic institution.
So you had to me, now today in Boston, there are two defining elements. There’s BSO and there’s the life science community. And so it felt like a match made in heaven and I was able to help to catalyze, um, that that match and. A couple years ago, they asked if I would be willing to step up and serve on the board of trustees, trustees, which of course, I, I, I’m more than willing, and it’s been an amazing experience.
And
Naji Gehchan: the last one is spread love at organizations.
Andy Plump: Well, I’m looking at you and I’m, I’m, you know, I didn’t, I have to be very honest. It’s one of my Achilles heels. I didn’t know about your podcast or your, your group until I was a, until I, I met your colleague. What was her name? Z. Z Zena. Zk. Zano, yeah. Z.
After my, after the panel at m i t, she came up to me and, uh, we talked for a few minutes and she asked if I would do this, and she told me a little bit about it. And, um, you know, I was more than, more than pleased to step in and, and I love what you’re, what you’re doing and reaching in and helping the, our community grow.
And asking the kinds of questions and that many people don’t ask. I never get asked about the Boston sy new orchestra. I get asked about leadership, but it’s not the most common thing I get asked about. And so the way you’re approaching this and the way you’re opening up our community to, to unique perspectives, perhaps from standard people like, like me, I think it’s really terrific.
So thank you for doing this and congratulations.
Naji Gehchan: Oh, thank you, Angie. That means, that means a lot. Any final words of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?
Andy Plump: Well, I’m an internal optimist, you know, and I, I, I have to be in our business, as you know, Naji, cuz a lot of what we do doesn’t work. And so you need to really be optimistic, um, and.
You know, as I said earlier, I think we’re in the golden era of, of healthcare and I, I, i, I, I don’t know if our, if these decades will be remembered for life science or for computer science, cuz both are making huge headways. Um, but okay, but I’ll, I’ll tell you a bit of an, an analogy. So in, in, in history, there are dark periods of time that are often characterized by war, by pandemic and by social injustice and unrest, and we’re just coming out of one with covid.
If you look back in history, there are many very similar examples that are characterized by that same triad of, of darkness, always. These dark periods are bookended by greatness, and typically that greatness is scientific or technological. You go back to the 19 early 19 hundreds with Albert Einstein, for example, world War I, and then some of the work that came after World War I was Sir Arthur Edington.
Um, you go back to the 1960s with the difficult period. Bookmark by greatness in our in space exploration. And if you come to today, we’ve established a left bar benchmark in my mind of this dark period, and it was the work that came out of Jennifer Doudna and Emmanuel Chappen with crispr. What we can do in terms of genetic manipulation is just amazing, and the potential for disease is just incredible.
I don’t know what the right bookmark of this dark period will be, but the people who are listening to your podcast will be defining it, and I have to imagine it’s gonna relate back somehow to our ability to manipulate our genome and create good.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Andy. It’s such a great way to finish up with an opening on hope for after all the darkness, as you said with the triad we’ve been going through.
Thank you so much again for being with me today. It’s been a privilege. Thank you.
Andy Plump: Thank you very much. Naji.
Thank you all for listening to Spreadlove in Organizations podcast! More episodes summarizing the MIT Sloan Healthcare and BioInnovations Conference are available on spreadloveio.com or on your preferred streaming app. Follow “spreadlove in organizations” wherever you listen to podcasts and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement our World so desperately needs.
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Mike Ullmann. Mike retired from Johnson & Johnson earlier this year after over 33 years with the Company. For the last 11 years, he served as a member of the J&J Executive Committee and the Executive Vice President, General Counsel leading a global organization of over 2,000 employees in 60 countries encompassing Legal, Government Relations & Policy, ESG Strategy, Intellectual Property, Corporate Governance, Data Privacy, Compliance and Security. As General Counsel of the world’s largest Life Sciences company, he successfully guided JNJ through high-profile and high-risk situations, while helping to grow the business to annual sales of $94 billion, increase shareholder value and maintain its reputation as one of the most admired companies in the world.
Mike – It’s a pleasure to see you again and have you with me today!
Michael Ullmann: Oh, thank you, Naji. It’s a pleasure to be here, and thank you very much for inviting me.
Naji Gehchan: Can we first start with your personal story, the in between, the lines of your journey to the exec committee of j and j and the inspiring leader you are today?
Michael Ullmann: Well, look, you know, I, I like to say Naji, that, that first and foremost, um, I’m a husband, a father, a son, uh, a grandfather, uh, a friend. Because I do think it really starts, um, with who you are as a person. And I think that, um, leadership really devolves I think from that, that individual level. And I think one of the things that we’ll talk about today is that balance between the individual and who you are as a leader and leading a large organization.
Uh, because to me, Um, in particular leading an organization of several thousand people, um, you always have to make sure that, that people see you as a person, as an individual, and that you’re not just a figurehead or you’re someone up on top of an organizational chart. And so I would always, um, in any of my conversations in, in any time I talk with people, Uh, would let people know what was going on in my life, and not, not to the extent of just talking about myself excessively, but just acknowledging, Hey, this is, uh, this weekend, uh, we had a, a birthday party for my grandson, and then I, I played golf.
And so, you know it just a little bit about who you are as a person. And so that’s what I like to talk about. Um, when I start off. And then look, I think that, uh, my story as a leader, uh, probably like many leadership stories is not a straight line, or certainly not like a straight upward line. Uh, you know, there are some twists and turns along the way and, you know, I, and I think, uh, happy to, you know, talk about that, uh, just to kind of trace my journey.
Yes, I’m,
Naji Gehchan: I’m
Michael Ullmann: eager to hear more about that. Yeah, well, look, you know, I think, um, to some extent I think my, my leadership journey was somewhat unexpected. And, you know, I, um, in fact, uh, when I was in my twenties and early thirties, um, I don’t think, uh, in fact I know for a fact that people that knew me, uh, did not expect for me to end up where I did.
Um, I, I wouldn’t say that I was a slow starter, uh, but I certainly was not like a shooting star and a wonder kid that everyone thought from, uh, day one in the workplace that I was going to be super successful. Um, and I think what I’ve learned was that, um, you know, for every person, there’s a, there’s a right environment, there’s a right role.
There’s a right company or organization. And so I didn’t really change as a person, but I changed jobs, I changed roles, and then eventually, um, I think I found the right environment and the right role where I could flourish and achieve my potential. And, and so, you know, part of why I like to focus on this is that.
Um, I’d like to tell people, look, if you don’t feel like you are achieving your potential in your environment, yeah, it may not be you, and it may not be the environment or the company, right. It may be that this is not the right match. And don’t, don’t be afraid to, to make a change. Don’t be afraid to do something different until you find the right, the right company, the right match.
Um, because you’ll hear people say, oh, well, like, that’s a really good company, or That’s a bad company. And I think it really depends upon, you know, what’s the right fit. Now for me, the right fit was eventually when I got to Johnson Johnson and being able to fill a multitude of roles. But then secondly, I think the second part of my, uh, leadership journey.
Was that I was not particularly ambitious. And you know, that’s probably not what you hear from many of the leaders, you know, that, that, that you talk to. But I was very happy with my life. Um, you know, my wife and I had been married a few years. Uh, we had three kids. Um, I lived close to where I worked. I was, you know, focused on trying to be a good father.
And, uh, and I loved my job, so I was certainly working, but my feeling was, Hey, I wanna do a good job. I’m in healthcare. And we can, we can certainly talk more about being in healthcare later on. Um, but it was, look, let me, uh, let me find that right balance, uh, you know, work life, home life. Um, but I think because I was not overly ambitious, What I focused on at work was helping other people succeed.
It was, you know, how do I help, uh, the people I’m working for succeed? How do I help my, my colleagues succeed? Uh, you know, at the time I wasn’t managing people, so it wasn’t helping people, uh, you know, that I was managing. But I was really, look, let me, uh, do what I can to make the company successful, to make my colleagues successful.
Um, ultimately that was recognized and appreciated and that began my journey as a leader, I think, in part because I was perceived as someone that was, um, you know, looking for the success of the organization, not for my own success. And then I think ultimately that kind of transitioned into the type of servant leadership.
That, you know, I have always been a proponent of and as I’ve moved up in the organization, tried to follow.
Naji Gehchan: I love that. And thanks for sharing first and really, you touched on incredible co uh, concepts. I would like to go and dig a little bit deeper. I loved what you said about the fit and this is why I was smiling, cuz even, you know, we’ve seen people who were, who are unhappy or performance is not there, and that’s one of my beliefs.
It’s probably the casting. And as leaders, we have responsibility for our people to, to share with them this, because every time we talk about servant leadership, people mismatch performance. Like how do you deal with performance? Actually, if you really care about your people and they’re not performing, you’re gonna tell the person.
Help them out find a better fit if it’s really a job fit as you shared. I, I, I love this part too. Um, I, I’m sure it’s hard to kind of summarize 33 years of, uh, of your experience at, uh, at j and j with one leadership learning, but I would love to kind of go there if there is one. What, what is the biggest.
Leadership learning during these years, that is also what you would like to transmit for, uh, for leaders moving forward?
Michael Ullmann: Yeah, look, um, there are obviously many, uh, learnings I could share, but it, but if I had to pick one, I think it would be, um, a sense of humility, right? Meaning that, um, I, I never felt that I had to have all the answers.
In particular because I, I was fortunate enough to lead a, uh, very large, you know, organization in many different areas, but I always felt that my job was not to be a, a superstar. My job was to, you know, be kind of, uh, the person that would motivate, empower other people. And I think if you surround yourself with good, smart, hardworking people, And you, you trust them and you give them the, the latitude that they need.
That that’s really the, to some extent, the secret sauce of leadership, at least in a large organization. And you know, to some extent, well, what I’m about to say is not very humble. And so when I talk about humility that may, it may not quite sound that, uh, I have humility, but I do think that. That, um, that level of humility that I had, which is, look, if the, if it’s the people around me who are shining, like I don’t need to shine as the leader, uh, because they, if my organization does well and we are accomplishing even more than what’s expected of us, then that will reflect well on me as a leader.
And I, I think that, um, That sometimes is counterintuitive to people who feel that if I’m a leader, I, I need to make sure that the most senior management, you know, sees me as the critical part, the critical hub in the wheel, that I’m the one that’s really making everything work. And I was always very comfortable just kind of, again, I have, I’m not a wallflower.
But I was very comfortable making sure that the people around me had that opportunity to make decisions to, to show what they knew. And then frankly, if you do that, you attract better talent. So it becomes somewhat self-serving because you know, good people want to work somewhere where they’re gonna get recognition and they’re gonna be respected.
And they’re going to get that type of exposure that they want.
Naji Gehchan: So Mike, I’m obviously a big believer of what you’re saying and and truly thank you for highlighting those important pieces. You know, I can, but think about some of the leadership today and some of like those who are in big lights. With quite the opposite actually of what you’re describing.
Like those who want to be in the light and reading dark organizations. And I, you know, I don’t want to go into politics also, but it’s those type of leaders obviously that you’re reading a lot about. Uh, and, and sometimes we’re discussing about kids before I’m, sometimes I reflect on this and why are those leaders having most of the lives?
While we both know the, the negative effect of this type of egocentricity, I, I’d love to get your reaction, how you think about these pieces and if, if you’ve ever been challenged about the way you lead people. You talked a lot about humility, shining through others, putting the others in the front, helping others be successful.
Have you ever been challenged on, on your style of leadership being too nice too kind? Several people I talked to, they would tell me. You know, I’m considered too kind. I’m too nice. What, what, what would be your reaction to this?
Michael Ullmann: Well, you know, naji, um, kindness is one of my favorite words. And, and I think it is underused in our society.
And, and interestingly enough, um, you know, I, I would use the word kindness to describe my leadership style. Now, I think that kindness though sometimes is, um, Is misinterpreted, right? Kindness doesn’t mean that, you know, every employee gets an A plus, right? Kindness doesn’t mean that, um, everyone is wonderful and does great at their job.
To me, what kindness means is treating people with respect and trusting people. Um, but you know, there are times where. Um, you do as a leader have to make tough decisions. Uh, and even there, you can do that with kindness. Uh, you can do this in a respectful manner. Um, so did I ever get challenged in my leadership style?
Yes, I did. Um, you know, and usually it would be that, uh, there was someone that maybe wasn’t performing. It didn’t happen a lot, but. Someone wasn’t performing well and I’d get push, uh, pressure, like move that person out or take action. And my feeling would be, look, let’s, um, let’s give this person a chance.
Let’s, let’s make sure there’s appropriate feedback that someone has the opportunity to kind of correct. Um, and sometimes that works, sometimes it didn’t. But it does get back to, I think something you said earlier, Naji, which is. What’s the right environment in the right role for people? And you know, it doesn’t mean if someone is not succeeding, it doesn’t mean that they’re a, they’re not smart.
It doesn’t mean that they’re a bad performer. What it may mean is that they’re not in the right role in the right organization. And I think, you know, I would say almost all the times I had to deal with that, um, the person realized that, and, and the person kind of welcomed that feedback. Because no one, no one likes to be unsuccessful in a role, right?
No one doesn’t wanna perform well, uh, but sometimes there’s inertia. And so I think if you treat people with kindness and you, you make that effort to help them succeed, even if at the end of the day they don’t, I think people kind of realize that, you know, things worked out for the best, and I think that’s important.
But I would say on the whole, you know, over 95% of the time, I think that people accepted my leadership style or my, the senior most leadership did, in part because my organization was successful. And I think that there was that realization that, look, you know, I, I, in fact, my, our c e O would say this sometimes, you know, Mike, you have your way of doing it.
It’s not the way other people do what their, their duties is manage, but you have good results. And so that’s okay. And look, frankly, I think it, it says a lot about a C E O and, and people at that level. Uh, and I try to do the same with my own organization, which is recognizing people have different leadership styles and, you know, as opposed to I’m the leader.
And you’re all going to manage in my way. I think another key part of leadership is recognizing and respecting different people, manage in different ways and lead in different ways. And as long as they’re creating the right culture, you know, as long as they’re treating people with respect and uh, and, and making ethical decisions and, and achieving results.
I think as a, as a senior leader, um, you, you do have to allow people to manage in style that’s right for them.
So
Naji Gehchan: Mike, uh, as you are, were working in j and j. You obviously took the company also during the last 11 years to a multi-billion, uh, successful company and serving so many, uh, patients and, and consumers in healthcare across the globe. Uh, you also went, uh, through developing a Covid vaccine and literally j and j single dose, uh, COVID vaccine.
Help humanity get out of, um, of the pandemic. So, uh, uh, can you share with us this particular journey you’re learning, leading those teams? In unprecedented times, delivering with speed, integrity, high quality. Also diversity. You worked a lot on how to make sure that you, you are representing the, the populations, um, when obviously all humanity.
What was watching you and you did it, you delivered. I’d love to, to hear the story behind the scenes and your
Michael Ullmann: learning. Sure. Um, well, look, I, I think there is a lot of pride there. Um, you know, the fact is while in the US the, the change hit Covid vaccine is really not being used. Uh, it still is in many of the developing parts of the world still being used, um, frequently in Africa, in other areas.
Uh, because it is one dose requires regular refrigeration. Uh, so there is a lot of pride in the fact that we continue to have an impact now to go back to really three years ago exactly to 2020, um, look, it was obviously a very difficult time for everyone personally as well as professionally. I, I think that to some extent the, um, one benefit that we had at Johnson and Johnson was we had a purpose.
And whether you were working on the vaccine, but really everyone in the organization, even if you were, you know, working on the Tylenol brand, you were working on other healthcare products because the need for oncology products and immunology products and surgery, it didn’t go away because we were in a pandemic, right?
The, uh, the healthcare needs of the world were still there. Um, and so I think that when people went home in March of 2020 to work, It really helped, um, our people because they actually felt that, um, rather than being bystanders to this pandemic, that we were working to make a difference. And, and I think that as a leader, that was very important.
And the message that certainly that, you know, I really took from there was when people feel they have a purpose in what they’re doing. They will work, um, very hard. They will work very passionately and they will really care about what they’re doing. So I think that then the next balance that I would say I, I found as a leader during the pandemic was, um, the importance of optimism, right?
That I would do meetings almost every day and I would do webcasts and zoom meetings. And I think people want their leaders to be hopeful to be optimistic. We’re going to get through this, you know, this is the worst, you know, health crisis of our lifetime. But, you know, with people like us working on this, you know, there is a, a way out.
Um, now you have to be realistic. It’s not like next week the pandemic will be over, but I think that element of optimism is very important in leadership. With that, however, I would say also came a, um, the importance of being openness, right? I would, uh, in, in all of my meetings and webcast, you know, I would talk about my own vulnerability, right?
Here’s, you know, I’m worried about, my mom is 90 years old, you know, uh, we worry about her. Um, you know, Thanksgiving, uh, first time I haven’t been with my children, you know, since they were born and, and things of that nature where, That balance. And I think, you know, Naji, that’s something as a leader that, um, you kind of have to work on developing.
But what is that right balance between being optimistic and being hopeful, but also sharing some of the, the challenges that you’re facing? And I, I think based on the feedback that I got, that that. That was effective. It was genuine. You know, there’s a lot of talk nowadays about authentic leadership. Um, I don’t know if I really was thinking that way, but I think that’s the way it came across.
And then I guess a fourth thing I would say about, um, leading during the pandemic was, um, the importance of being able to trust and delegate to people because it wasn’t like, you know, Pre pandemic where you might gather everybody in a room and, and make a decision that people, especially the people in my organization working on the vaccine, um, they had to make real time decisions.
And if you were working in Asia, like we didn’t wanna wait 12 hours every day for someone, you know, here in the US to make a decision. And so it was very much about, you know, Come to me. I mean, the, the, the message that I had was, you know, if you need more resources, if you need more money, you know, if you need more time or people let me know.
But other than that, you know, or if I can be of any help, you know, because you want my advice. But other than that, like you decide, you know, you’re qualified, you decide, you go ahead and make those decisions. And I think that following the pandemic, um, I, I, I won’t say that. Uh, I think we have made improvements in that.
I think we have continued that. Maybe not as much as we did during the pandemic, but I do think I see a bit more willingness to delegate and let people lower in the organization, make, make decisions. I love those
Naji Gehchan: and, and I hope we, as you said, we keep some of the, if we can say positives of the pandemic, but really in the leadership style, in the managerial Yeah.
Way of how things were handled and the, the pace, right. Uh, that we developed innovation for patients. Um, You, you mentioned it, and this is why I always like to take this pandemic, cuz as you said, I think it really brings this idea of we’re all here for one purpose and overworking. And I remember you shared an anecdote about relaxing afternoon where Yeah.
Where you were sent back to work. Like even from family standpoint. Uh, if you wanna share this for sure. Um, But the, I I’m, I’m interested also to hear, you know, without the pandemic, so after it and before it, how did you make sure that your people constantly think of this purpose and have patience in mind when taking the decisions?
This is where sometimes I feel it’s hard, right? Like each of us running through operations, leading organizations, Our, our team sometimes can be in the small details that we forget this big picture of patients. So I’d love to hear from you how you managed to keep this after the rush of adrenaline in a pandemic or even before
Michael Ullmann: that.
Yeah. You know, Naji, I would, I would say that that to me, um, was always, I think one of the biggest challenges of my role. And in particular because, you know, I, I’m not a scientist. I’m not doing, uh, research and the people in my organization, you know, were not developing vaccine. You know, they were not actually working in the labs, developing the vaccines, creating new cancer drugs.
Uh, there are people in functional roles working at a death and so, You know, how do you inspire people and how do you make sure that people understand that they have a purpose? And so I think what helped is even before the pandemic, way before the pandemic, um, that was something that I always worked at.
And frequently it would be when we would do, um, webcast, uh, getting patients, people who had benefited from our products, getting doctors, people who use our products, but. Making sure that the people who were sitting in the company headquarters of the desk had line of sight to what, you know, what is actually happening in the real world, and what do people look like?
What do patients look like? What did doctors look like? Hear them talking about our products. That was always very important. And then frankly, it really was, I think. What I always tried to do when I talked to different groups, and let’s suppose I was talking to a, a group of, you know, paralegals, which is just making them understand is that, you know, any pharmaceutical company, you know, it, it’s like being on a sports team, right?
Not every position is a glory position, but you need people in every role. And so, uh, a pharmaceutical company, Needs, uh, a, uh, an intellectual property group and they need, uh, patent lawyers and they need patent paralegals. And, you know, while it may not look like your job is a glory job or that you’re actually impacting patients, the, the people that are developing the next line of cancer drugs, they could not do that without you at your desk doing your job.
And so, That was always part of my talk track. Uh, and I think very important because again, when people realize that their role is critical, they will, they will go through walls. They will work as hard as they can. And that to me is a leader, is really what you’re trying to do. You’re trying to inspire people to be their best.
So
Naji Gehchan: Mike, now I’ll give you a word and I want the first thing that comes to your mind.
Michael Ullmann: Okay, so the first word is leadership. Uh, responsibility. Uh, do you want me to expand or just give you one word? No, you can expand. Yeah. I mean, responsibility, leadership is, um, whenever I would talk to, you know, people earlier in their career, like, what are your aspirations?
It’s like, well, I want to be a leader. I wanna manage people. And it’s like, well, why? You know, and it’s, uh, you know, I think that to me, um, the, the larger your organization is, the bigger leadership role, the greater responsibility that you have is, and so to me, the one word that leadership is, is it’s about responsibility to other people.
What about E S G? E s G is a critical, okay. One word, uh, future. Um, and I would say that, um, you know, we had spent quite a bit of time over the last four or five years on E S G, but the reality is social responsibility has been, um, part of the ethos of Johnson Johnson going back over a hundred years. Yeah.
We have, uh, like pictures. Of j and j products being delivered, uh, in the San Francisco earthquake of, I think it was 1908, uh, but part of the culture and the, the history of the company is being at disasters, being in times of crisis and, and being in healthcare, being able to play a role. So yeah, where we are today in E S G is somewhat of a, it’s a progression.
But I think that to me it is you’re constantly working on and improving not only your company, but the world around us for the future and for future generations.
Health equity. Health equity is, I think, uh, boy, one of the critical, critical unmet needs. Right now in our society and, and health equity, certainly just in this country where, you know, we have embarrassingly high infant and maternal mortality rates. I mean, among the, uh, the highest rates in the Western world, uh, where we have, you know, people that don’t get appropriate, healthcare is frankly inexcusable.
And I think even on a global level. Where, you know, the, the unmet healthcare needs around the world and the variations and life expectancies in a world like Earth is, uh, is very hard to justify. And so, look, I know from my perspective, um, you know, you, you can talk about large issues like this and it’s almost like boiling the oath, right?
Which is. Health equity, how, how are we going to self health equity? Um, what I tried to do in my organization was to, uh, you know, come up with projects, right? Like four or five projects. They’re not gonna solve health equity in the world or in the United States, but, you know, can we help? One project we did was in public housing and asthma, and that, the, that the fact, a large number of children, Living in public housing have asthma because of poor environmental conditions.
So we had a group of people in our organization work on public housing in Washington DC. So again, it’s, um, I think as a leader, when you talk about big issues like this, um, it, it’s helpful to say, okay, what can we do on a bit of a micro level? And again, you’d love to be able to solve the issues of health equity around our country, around the world, but let’s, let’s try to at least have an impact
Naji Gehchan: that’s, that’s super powerful and really thinking about local impact that can happen and make it, and make it happen.
The last one is spread love in organizations.
Michael Ullmann: Well, I think that, uh, look, the way that you spread love and organization, it starts with kindness as we’ve talked about, right? It, it talks about as a leader, um, what’s the culture you’re creating? And that to me, um, as a leader, probably the most important role that you have. And in particular, you know, in a large organization.
Is, you know, you can’t impact. I mean, to some extent, as a member of our executive committee, I was leading an organization of 140,000 people, you know, 2000 directly, but, uh, company of 140,000. So you can’t touch, you can’t touch that many people individually. You can’t touch 2000 people individually. What you can do as a leader is create a culture, create a culture.
Where you can, um, really demand kindness. I was going, I wouldn’t say just encourage, but ensure there’s kindness. Uh, ensure there’s ethical leadership, that people are making value-driven decisions, treating people in an ethical way, uh, looking out for patients and consumers in a, uh, values-based manner.
And so I think that by creating that culture, That’s how you spread love in an organization.
Naji Gehchan: Any final words of, uh, wisdom Mike for healthcare leaders around
Michael Ullmann: the world? Yeah, look, I think that it being in healthcare is really a privilege because we do have the opportunity and the responsibility, um, to impact healthcare, um, and impact the lives of people and.
You know, I think that it is so gratifying on those occasions when, you know, I, I meet people, I talk to people and they will say, oh, uh, Johnson or Johnson Johnson, like, uh, yeah, my mom was on your cancer drug. Or, you know, my dad takes this product and, and it’s made a difference in his life. And I think you realize that that ability to actually.
Help people live happier, uh, longer and healthier lives. Uh, I can’t think of a better field to be in, a better industry to be in. Um, it’s why I gravitated to healthcare. It’s why I stayed there for almost 35 years. And in fact, now in a nonprofit way, I continue to remain involved, uh, working with the, uh, the global healthcare ngo Americas.
Um, where I’m on their board of directors, but so I continue to be in healthcare. I always will be in healthcare because again, it is, uh, a privilege and, uh, it just, it really makes you feel that, that you can’t spread love around the world and really help make a difference in people’s lives.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much, uh, Mike, it’s definitely why we wake up every morning in this industry, uh, trying to make life better for patients.
Yeah. Thank you so much for being with me today. It’s such an honor and, uh, great chat. Thank you.
Michael Ullmann: Well, thank you Naji, and, uh, I really, I love what you’re doing. I love the whole concept around spread love because I think it really is such a critical message. And Naji, you’re doing a great job. So thank you for what you do.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to Spread Love in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Dorota McKay a creative problem solver with a passion for finance and personal development. Dorota is currently a Vice President Controller and Chief Accounting Officer for Vapotherm, Inc., a publicly traded medtech company that develops innovative, comfortable, non-invasive technologies for respiratory support of patients with chronic or acute breathing disorders. Dorota holds active CPA, CMA and CFE designations. Prior to joining Vapotherm she was a Controller for Decibel Therapeutics and a Finance Director at Oxford Immunotec. She is also corporate trainer and coach certified in Canfield Methodology and a Certified Culture Transformation Tools Practitioner with the Barrett Values Centre.
Dorota – It’s a pleasure to see you again and have you with me today!
Dorota McKay: Thanks, Naji. It’s great to be here.
Naji Gehchan: Let’s start first with, uh, your personal story. What brought you to accounting specifically in healthcare, and what’s the story behind the great leader you became today?
Dorota McKay: Yeah, so, so it wasn’t a straight path for me. Um, and I think an important part of my identity is, uh, being an immigrant.
I was born in communist Poland under martial law, and I, uh, lived in communist Poland until. At the age of seven, that’s when communist fell. And um, I still remember that moment actually. It was, um, extremely important for us. And I, I remember the, the shortages of those years. Um, and I remember our neighbors actually hiding in our apartment for, from the militia.
So, um, was definitely a, a very different reality from, uh, where I live today. Um, and my parents were both teachers, uh, when I was growing up in Poland. My dad w is a linguistics professor and my mom was a high school teacher. And so when I grew up, I decided to follow in their footsteps and also become a teacher myself.
And I studied English studies and I got, um, masters in American literature and American Studies. My masters was on virtual and real in, uh, American science fiction. So very different from what I do now. And, um, after graduating from, um, a university in, in Poland, I decided to, uh, pursue doctoral studies. So I became an academic teacher and, um, I was also an exchange student in the summer.
That’s how I ended up meeting my husband, um, in Maine of all places. And, um, after a couple years, we, we decided to get married and I, uh, moved to join him in the, in the United States. And, um, I continued to work on my doctoral thesis, uh, remotely. But in, in 2009 during the great recession, my husband lost his, uh, job and he worked for a nonprofit on the, on the coast of Maine that provided us with, um, our only source of income and our source of housing.
So when he lost the job, Uh, we basically ended up with nothing. Um, and, um, that was a pretty difficult time in my life. So I was, uh, new to the country. I didn’t have a, a community, I didn’t have a lot of friends. I didn’t have a job. I was working on a, on a doctoral thesis, uh, remotely. And, um, I remember having, having, um, a very difficult time just adjusting.
One day I ended up walking down the beach and, uh, just crying. I f I was feeling very miserable and, uh, and very, very down. And I, um, as I was walking down the beach, I tripped and I fell, um, head first or face first into the sand. And as I was, um, as I was, um, you know, on the ground, I saw this little piece of, um, uh, seaglass.
On the ground, and it was just beautiful and, and, and, um, very blue and, and this like, colorful thing in this very, very depressing reality. And it allowed me to just take a pause and think to myself that in every hard situation there was something positive. And I got up and I decided to really change things.
Um, so the, the transformation just took place in that very moment. And so I decided I was going to quit my doctoral studies do something different to better adjust to, to the reality and help my family become, uh, financially independent and, and successful. So what I end ended up doing is I, I quit the doctoral program and I went and got a job as a waitress at a local Olive Garden restaurant and I enrolled in a, a community college.
Um, and from there I did really well. Ended up going to, uh, state, uh, university. Uh, getting a degree in, in business ad administration, becoming a cpa. Uh, I got a job with a local, um, public accounting firm. And then from there I moved to, uh, the big four, uh, firm in Boston. And things just started happening for me.
And so while I was at, at, at, uh, Ernston Young, I worked with a, um, a large pharma company, and that’s kind of where I, uh, really, uh, started. Appreciating the, the pharma, biotech and medical industries and, and felt that I wanted to pursue a career, um, in those industries. Um, so after, after spending about four, uh, four and a half years in, in public accounting, I wanted to really, um, go and work for a business just to go really deep and, um, and help grow a business as opposed to just being a generalist.
And so, um, my first, my first job in medical device was, um, was actually, um, with Oxford Immuno Tech. And I stayed there for several years and, and grew my career there. Um, and it was a company that made, uh, tuberculosis tests, um, and really, um, very patient-centric, um, that, that, um, Allowed me to grow my career from, you know, a manager position to, uh, to a director.
Um, and what I would say is coming to the us, you know, starting in a, a completely different country and then basically start starting from nothing in the US and getting to where I am today, which is, uh, you know, a vice president of a publicly traded company. Um, For me, it’s proof that the American dream still exists and, and you can still be successful, um, if you really devote yourself to it and, and work hard.
And if you’re also fortunate enough to have the mentors and, and help that I had. And I think for me as a leader, it’s important to give back to others what I’ve received on this, uh, journey.
Naji Gehchan: Wow. Thank you so much, uh, Dota for sharing, uh, with us, uh, this, this journey. Uh, it’s powerful and inspiring, uh, for sure.
Uh, and you shared specific moments, uh, a as we call them, sometimes crucifix or other peak experiences. Uh, I’d love you to, to kind of share with us a little bit more, uh, on how you take these into leadership. You shared about, uh, the early moments in your life. When, uh, in, in Poland and then coming to the US and then the crisis in the US and several others, uh, I, I’d love to know how you took those, and you obviously reacted to them in a way that brought you, uh, where you are today and being this incredible leader.
Uh, can you share a little bit more this, those, those moments and what are the key leadership learnings that you’re taking with them, from them, with you?
Dorota McKay: Yeah, I think definitely, uh, starting, starting my career in the service industry in the US was, uh, was a really great experience. I think it learned me, it, it, I think it, I learned the respect for, for hard work and also the, the humility.
So I think the advice I would give to others is just be humble. Be open to opportunities. When things come your way, just say yes. And I think. My success has mostly been because I said yes to new assignments, new opportunities, um, and I, I definitely worked very hard, uh, throughout the years to, um, to advance within the various companies that I worked for.
But, um, I think just saying yes to new opportunities and often being uncomfortable was what got me to where I am today. So you’ve led
Naji Gehchan: teams and organizations in a very specific domain of the company. Uh, you’ve done auditing, uh, finance, financial controller, and accounting. These are usually functions, uh, that are challenging, uh, internally.
Uh, I, I don’t know. You might disagree with me, but I, I actually would love, uh, we’d love to hear from you how you approach those roles. Internally because they are crucial roles, but again, sometimes might be perceived as challenging or controlling, et cetera. I’d, I’d love to
Dorota McKay: get your thoughts about it.
Yeah, it’s definitely a challenging working in an administrative and support function in healthcare because you, you don’t really deal directly with patients all the time and you don’t necessarily deal with customers all the time, but you have internal customers and I think there’s also a sense of mission, um, especially for a company that might not yet be profitable.
Where you know that the, the financial results, the financial reporting that we deliver to our shareholders is basically what helps the company survives is we get additional funding to help us continue going for, for a couple more years until we show profitability. So I think, uh, my team has definitely had a sense of mission and, uh, working at Vapotherm specifically.
A company that makes devices that, um, you know, help address respiratory distress. It’s been an extremely interesting experience, um, and challenging during the pandemic because we, we literally had to do everything we could to make as many devices as we could and deliver them to customers because it was a life or death situation.
So I think in that way, it made it easier for my team to have that sense of mission and just work through, you know, long hours. Um, Constant deadlines. It’s something that we definitely deal with. And, um, I struggle sometimes with, uh, staffing as well because as you know, uh, usually in support functions there’s, there are budget concerns.
So I think it’s very important as a leader for you to fight for your team to make sure that you have adequate resourcing and that people are, you know, not working 70 hour weeks, uh, or 80 hour weeks. Um, cuz it’s just really, as much as we’re mission driven, it can have a negative impact on, on people’s wellbeing and, and health.
Um, and so I always, um, I always make it a. Make it a point to, um, to tell my team to, you know, recharge after periods, which are usually very busy for us, which is quarter ends, year ends, audits, things like that.
Naji Gehchan: Can I double click on, uh, the mission? As you shared, it’s important. Sometimes you feel you’re a little bit more, uh, like far from the patients and the impact you have, even though it’s a great example of what you’ve done and the impact.
You obviously help actual patients, uh, through the pandemic. How do you make sure that this stays alive daily with your teams these
Dorota McKay: days? Yeah, it’s, it’s, um, definitely been very different for us. After the, the pandemic ended, um, we we’re focusing now on a different subset of patients. Uh, so we’re focusing more on C O P D patients and our more traditional, um, kind of patient groups.
Um, for example, um, you know, patients who, um, Come down with the flu or RSV or, or similar respiratory conditions. Um, but I think what has been, what has united us together is after the pandemic ended, our company has been through several restructurings. So, you know, during the pandemic we worked extremely hard to make sure that the patients were served and, um, Our sales were really booming.
Then when the pandemic ended, the market has really been saturated with, uh, um, respiratory support equipment. And so we’ve seen a, a really pretty steep decline in our sales in, uh, 2022. And the company went through, um, you know, downsizing, uh, twice last year. And for my team, uh, it’s been especially challenging because we get to see all those changes, uh, firsthand.
And, um, I think just working together as a team and focusing on the, on the wellbeing of the company and helping the company as a company survive that, that difficult time has been what kept us together. Uh, cuz we. You know, have a lot of influence on, we’re watching budgets, we’re making sure that, uh, um, the financial resources are being used, uh, responsibly.
And, um, and we’re also responsible for, um, we’re helping with fundraising and we’re helping with reporting that, you know, uh, helps us, uh, continue as, as a business and as we’re retooling our business and making a lot of changes in it, we’re also expanding globally. We’re hoping that we can come out on the other side stronger.
So there’s, there’s still a lot of, there’s still a lot of patients who need our help and something that really drove it home for me is I visited one of our clinics, um, at one point that was serving C O P D patients. And I heard firsthand the patient who was doing the rounds around the clinic and how difficult it was for him to breathe.
No, I think. After hearing that, I feel like our mission is as much alive as it was during the pandemic. Not being able to breathe is one of the, the worst feelings in the world. And um, you know, as long as those patients are out there, we’re gonna be there to serve them. Oh,
Naji Gehchan: I, I love it. And really the centricity around patients right there is the urgency that the pandemic brought.
But at the end of the day, what we do, what you do, what what I do every day is really trying to improve life on patient at a time, at a time, make their life better. Uh, tell us, you touched it a little bit, your, your. Growing your team, you’re dealing with uncertainties, uh, with several different transformations.
Also business transformations growing, uh, you know, uh, funding, et cetera. Uh, and you have a passion for cultural transformation. Can you share with us a little bit more your learning as a practitioner, uh, and how to make sure that those transformations are
Dorota McKay: successful? Yeah. So, uh, so, uh, for me, uh, the culture transformation is really about understanding your teams and your own values and translating them into the ways that they, they map onto your organization’s values.
And so the first step you need to do is, you know, identify the values that you have, and there are various tools available for that. Uh, that I’ve worked through with, with my team. And then you also map the, the company’s values, which usually have the mission, the values that’s, that’s stated, and then compare it to what the company’s actually doing to see if it’s living those values.
And then if there, hopefully there’s an overlap bef between the two. And if people understand that overlap, it’s easier for them to bring themselves to work because. You know, their own values are aligned. So for example, if somebody’s value is, uh, family and wellbeing, you want to make sure that the organization is also providing them with time to, you know, devote to their family and wellbeing.
And if there’s no overlap, then you’re probably, your people are in the wrong organization, or the organization needs a lot of work. And usually what we do, um, as part, as part of the cultural transformation, it’s just showing whether there’s overlap and if there’s no overlap, what can we do to bridge that?
Naji Gehchan: I want now your first reaction that comes to mind when I tell you a word. So the first word is leadership.
Dorota McKay: Okay.
I think, uh, service is what I would say. Women
Naji Gehchan: in tech.
Oh.
Um, can be more than a word.
Dorota McKay: Can be more than a word. Yeah. It, it brings, it brings to mind. A little bit of oppression, but then also examples of some really amazing, uh, tech leaders. So I think maybe, uh, future, maybe hope. And
Naji Gehchan: if I go down this one, is there a specific advice you would tell yourself when you started your career in MedTech that you would now take and give it to other, uh, brilliant
Dorota McKay: women?
Yes. I would say, um, I would say, um, don’t be afraid to take risks and, um, always ask. Ask for opportunities because as women especially, I think we tend to, uh, just expect that people will notice us. And, and you know, if we’re doing a really good job, somebody will come to us and say, here, how would you like to be promoted?
Or, how would you like to try this new opportunity? And I think we’re sometimes afraid to ask for things. And if you go to your leader, mentor and say, Hey, I’d like more exposure to new opportunities. How about this role? Do you think I could be good in this role? Uh, they will often say yes. And the worst that can really happen is they say, no.
And you’re exactly in the same place where you started. So I think always ask, ask, ask, because you might actually get what you want.
What about Six Sigma? So, uh, six Sigma. I’ve worked in, uh, in a, in a couple manufacturing, uh, type, uh, companies. So every medical device company has, has a manufacturing function and I was fortunate to work for companies that, um, were very keen on process improvement, uh, lean and Six Sigma. And, uh, the companies that I worked for actually put.
All of their employees through the process, uh, through training when they started with the company. And, um, really Im implemented this, um, need to, to improve processes and understand processes, uh, from day one. And that was really helpful for me as a leader in the finance function. You know, you might think that this is very different.
It’s not a manufacturing process, but it’s a process. You know, there are inputs, there are, there are steps in the process. There are bottlenecks and there are outputs. And so I’ve fled, uh, several kaizen, um, process improvement events with my finance teams at various organizations. And we always find that that.
Brings the teams together. And it also makes their jobs more fulfilling because they can see exactly how their, um, job and what they do interacts with other parts of the process. And, um, we often discover that. People sometimes don’t talk to each other and they just don’t know that something that they’re doing really hurts somebody else.
And so when you bring the team together, you actually take that time to put them in the room for a couple days and, and walk through the process. And then maybe have, you know, couple fun events, um, like, like a dinner or, or some sort of a, a team bonding game that really, really, um, helps improve the day-to-day.
And, uh, we see a lot of, uh, benefit from that. Love it. You’re
Naji Gehchan: combining cross-functional work with fun, with a purpose. I, I love this. The last word is spread love and organizations
Dorota McKay: spread. I, I really love this, um, the, the premise of this entire podcast, and I, I think we should all be doing that. Um, so I think. The way, the way I like to spread love in organizations is by helping other people learn and grow. I think, um, it really makes me happy when I can coach somebody and, and provide them with opportunities for advancement.
Sometimes it’s hard because that also means that they might leave your team or they might even leave your organization. But I think as a leader, you, you have to be, um, Happy with that. You have to really be happy, uh, with the fact that somebody might develop so much that they will no longer, you know, be satisfied with, uh, with either your department or, or your organization.
Um, and I think, um, I think also as a leader, you know, it is a bit of a cliche where, where, uh, people say leaders take all the blame and give away all the credit. I think it’s very, very, Needed, um, because you need to provide psychological safety to your team. So people need to be, um, confident enough to be able to make mistakes and they need to know that if they falter or or if they make a mistake, um, there will be somebody there standing up for them.
And so, I would say that whenever something an issue happens in, in our team, we try to focus on the solution and not point out, you know, who did it. We might, we might, um, investigate why something happened, but it’s not a people problem. It’s usually a process problem. And so that makes it a lot easier for us to, uh, to proceed and it’s, it helps people come to you as a leader and bring up problems instead of try trying to hide them.
Well, thanks
Naji Gehchan: for sharing this. And it’s, uh, you’re bringing powerful concepts around psychological safety, about recognition, teamwork, and obviously, uh, another point for your incredible leadership, uh, grounded in resilience as you started, uh, this podcast sharing about, uh, your story. Any final words of wisdom that you would like to share with, uh, healthcare leaders around the world?
Dorota McKay: Yes. So my words of wisdom for healthcare leaders probably especially important for finance leaders, but I think for, for everyone is if you are ever in doubt, always choose integrity and follow your moral compass. I think your, your reputation is more important than any kind of short-term gain. You take it with you everywhere.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much Tta for, uh, for your, those final words and for being with me today, uh, and all this incredible chat. Thank you.
Dorota McKay: Thank you so much. My pleasure.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to Spread Love in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
In this episode, we chatted with Melanie Ivarsson, Chief Development Officer at Moderna, who led teams in times the world was anxiously waiting for them to deliver us a hope with Covid Vaccine… and they did. How did they achieve this? How do you lead in such unprecedented times? How do you ensure this sense…More
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host today, having the pleasure to be joined by Melanie Ivarsson Chief Development Officer at Moderna. In this role Melanie leads the Clinical Development Operations department and delivers with her team all clinical programs within the Moderna portfolio. Prior to joining Moderna, she was Head of Global Clinical Operations at Takeda and spent 9 years at Pfizer in Clinical Development. Melanie also held roles within the early clinical development group at Eli Lilly. After receiving her PhD from the University of Bristol, she completed postdoctoral research at Lund University and New York University. Melanie also holds an Executive MBA from MIT Sloan School of Management.
Melanie – It is such an honor to have you with me today!
Melanie Ivarsson: Thank you so much. It’s great to chat to you. The honors is mine.
Naji Gehchan: I would love to hear first your personal story what brought you to pharma in the first place to joining a month before the pandemic was declared one of the companies that helped humanity be out of the pandemic with vaccines – what is in between the lines of your inspiring journey?
Melanie Ivarsson: Absolutely. So, um, as you nicely summarized at the beginning there, um, I started off in academia as a neuroscientist and did a couple of postdocs. Um, and I’ve really enjoyed. So how that helped my brain be trained to think, to deeply analyze problems.
That was an amazing training for me. I’m a systems neurophysiologist by training, so I’m thinking big connections, big picture. And that actually is really the arc of my entire career. It’s the building, the big picture, how things connect together is what really fascinates me. Um, so during my academic career, I realized sitting in the lab at two o’clock in the morning that I actually didn’t have any interesting questions to ask about that were narrowed, that I wanted to ask the big questions.
Um, and that made me start to think that maybe, um, research grants and very focused academic work. In that discipline wasn’t the right place for me to be. And so I started my career at Lilly, um, in their clinical pharmacology department and spent, you know, 20 years moving through very large pharma company where you get to talk about very big problems.
Big organizations that are connected together in lots of sort of different ways. And you get to ask those big questions. Um, and I went all the way through Lilly, then Pfizer for nearly a decade, um, Shire, which then got acquired by Takeda. And in the last couple of years of my time in the sort of Takeda um, era, I was also doing my executive m MBA at M I T in parallel.
And that really gave me a different way of looking at some of these big picture problems, how to build organizations, organizational processes, strategy, how to put teams together. And it was at that time that I thought to myself, I could go. You know, do approach this differently, these learnings. Let’s don’t go and do something different.
And Moderna reached out to me looking for a, a new chief development officer. It was a newly created position at the time. Clinical development had 30 people in it. And they hadn’t even done a large scale clinical trial, and they wanted somebody who could come and build their organization slowly over a couple of years, a nice slow build.
And I thought, well, I’m never gonna get an opportunity like this. Go and build it the way I want to. Slowly. Over time, thoughtfully, carefully build out an organization that can deliver its first sort of phase three study in 18 months from now. Wow. As history shows, that isn’t quite what happened. I turned up on the 3rd of February as we all were about to get sent home as the pandemic was being declared and the weak Moderna decided that they were gonna go and develop a Covid 19 vaccine.
And so my nice gentle build, um, Uh, literally had to take place in days and weeks rather than the years that I thought. Um, and, and you know, the rest is history. We went off and developed our Covid 19 vaccine, um, in partnership, um, with, with the government and, and many others, uh, that enabled that. And, and it was an incredible experience, not what I was expect.
Um, but just an incredible experience and I learned so much about leadership and building teams. Um, and now where we are today, um, we, we are at again, a yet another inflection point. So, uh, an amazing leadership journey.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much for your, for sharing it and, and I, I’m gonna go and dig into this a little bit more from a leadership standpoint and, and your learning.
So you obviously led team as you said, like you thought you had 18 months to build and scale up and growth. But actually you did it in a couple of months in a crisis mode where not only in internal cr like the word was o obviously anxiously waiting for you to bring us hope, and you did. So what is the key leadership learning you took with you from this experience?
Melanie Ivarsson: So it is all about the people and how they make decisions together in a, in that moment of, In that moment, um, I think what I learned is that I absolutely did not need to be the smartest person in the room, but I needed to enable everyone else to talk to each other and make the right decisions and move things forward and put things in place, have the right conversation, and that’s a time when a leader has to actually lead from behind or, or take a step back and look at the full extent of the.
Of the problem ahead of them. So I’d never developed a vaccine before. That was not my expertise. It wasn’t a case of me turning up in Moderna and going, this is the way to do this. There were many better people who had all the right expertise. Um, we asked ’em to come on the journey with us and through our own team.
We have an incredible, very small, nimble. That this was their reason for being, this was the public health crisis that they hoped they would never have to live through. But for all people who develop vaccines, this is what they’re actually trained to do. That one day, a rapid vaccine response is going to be needed by the world.
Um, and this incredible team of people came together to do this, and my job was to not get in their way, get out of their way, enable them as much as. Get them what they needed. Um, open doors for them, wipe away their tears, be there for them late at night, early in the morning, um, and help get them up this incredible hill that we had to climb up together.
Um, and that took many different forms from going into really quite controversial and difficult conversations in the early days, trying to work out who was gonna do what and how. Thinking through, can we do this to, um, sending, you know, when everybody had to work through the weekend, um, sending everybody, you know, a, a nice food package so that they could just put things in the oven and not have to worry.
You know, it takes many, many forms to keep a team going through all those different times. Um, and my job was to just enable and not be in the way.
Naji Gehchan: I love it. Like I said it several times, enabling others and not getting in the way to do it. And, and as you said, there was this, I love how you framed it, right?
Like there was this big purpose that is so important and everyone was waiting for it. Uh, would you have a story or an example because you shared some of those, and I think in those moments of crisis, um, you, you always have ups and downs. Like there is this big purpose, but there is also some time.
Negative news that you get and you have to help the team go through it and keep on going. Like you have stories and examples on how you lead teams, specifically in those highs and valleys that they go through emotionally also in development. Any example on how you’ve done this for them to keep having the faith to get to the
Melanie Ivarsson: result?
Yeah, and I, well, I think it’s. One of the greatest challenges for all of us during the pandemic was leading when you couldn’t be in the room together. So there is a, particularly in a, in a small biotech, there’s a lot to be said for just getting in a room. The leadership at Moderna historically had been very in person, and so they walked the corridors.
I turned up at the beginning of February and we all got sent home within six weeks. So most of us had never met each. I had to hire a team almost entirely remotely. We all did. Um, and that team, um, needed to find a way to get to know each other virtually. You build a lot of trust through that sort of personal connection.
Being in a room with somebody shaking their hand, um, taking a few moments to sort of, Have the kind of conversation that helps you build stronger, uh, professional connections that is incredibly difficult over a Zoom call. And, um, that’s also very difficult when time is of the essence. Not only did we have to do that within ourselves, but we also were under operation whoop speed.
We were working with government partners, we were working with a network of investigators, um, that we’d never worked with. Everybody had heard the call to action. Everybody was there incredibly well intended, wanting to do the right thing. And you have this bringing together of private public partnership.
The government, the n I h uh, academic trialists, this little tiny biotech that had never done this before, that had. Technology that was full of hope. And then we also had to partner with other companies that were in the race as well. We all had to get out of each other’s way. We, the collaboration there was extraordinary.
So, you know, everybody was so well intended, but there were days when you just had to remember that because, You know, everybody was used to doing things a certain way, and so you bring all those people together, you can’t get them in a room. Um, you’ve just got to kind of cut through it. We threw time at it.
Time was our most important resource, and so we made enormous amounts of time for each other. Our friends and families really suffered during this period, but it was the most extraordinary experience of all our careers. So if you needed to be on the phone at eight o’clock on a Saturday morning or a Sunday morning, To have the right conversation with someone.
You did that. And so making enormous amounts of time for each other and also carving out times in the day where you’d say between six and eight, go be with your families. Have dinner. Take some time away. Let’s all get back in here at eight o’clock tonight. We don’t. We have to rest as well. And so finding that balance of being there for everybody, asking them to do this exceptional.
And then trying to preserve some sense of sort of wellness and rest, um, and making sure that people were actually able to sort of physically and mentally cope, um, was really, really essential. And as a leader, you’re going through it yourself, and you can only see people from the shoulders up, right? You can’t see.
How, how they’re really sitting. You, you’ve got to become this incredible good reader of those little small signals. Um, and I, after a while, I started to, uh, feel that I could read people, um, through their emotions, through the Hollywood, you know, the Hollywood squares on the, the screen in front of me, and became very good at detecting that face of that individual that.
They’re not where they need to be right now, and a quick follow up call. Everything okay? How are you feeling? What’s going on? Um, so emotional intelligence had to become a finely honed skill in a completely different medium. Um, and so I would say for leaders, um, nothing prepares to you for that kind of experience.
Um, but we all became very good at, at doing it. I.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks for sharing this. And uh, Mel, during, as you were, as you were talking, obviously what you’ve done, what other, uh, pharma companies stood up for the execution and did was something we all hoped for, right? Like you talked about this multi-stakeholder partnership and speed to get to a solution, uh, in on percent time.
And obviously this is what we all hope for. Doing all the time. Right. But obviously you cannot operate as we operated during Covid and like relentless hours, et cetera. But at the same time, there’s other people who still are waiting for better treatments. Mm-hmm. In all different diseases. So I’m wondering what are the key learning that you’re taking with you that we can implement at healthcare leaders?
In a more normalcy word, but we’re obviously speed and impatient for patients Yeah. Is still so important.
Melanie Ivarsson: It’s, it’s such a good question and, and one that we are, we’re all grappling with as an industry now. So what made. Covid such an exceptional time for our industry is that the entire ecosystem became focused on one thing.
So companies themselves didn’t compete with each other. We knew that we had to make enough doses between us or successful vaccines for the world, so we became. United in that mission, regulators, um, ethics committees, clinical trial sites, suppliers, CROs, vendors, labs, everybody. Um, were prepared to prioritize the vaccine and therapeutics work above all else.
And I think that is the reality is how much of that machine it. To deliver on really what ended up being just a few successful vaccines, um, and a few successful therapeutics at the end of the day. Um, so when you then try to, um, you know, bring that out into something like cancer or Alzheimer’s, what it would take to deliver the same focus, that becomes incredibly challenging.
Do what I hope it also does though. Recognizes, helps companies recognize what parts of their process they don’t actually need. Um, it’s very easy to believe that you need to go through number of steps to get somewhere, and it takes six weeks when at a time like that you can do it in a day if you can get the right people.
At the table, the virtual table in our case, to do it. And so I think, um, Moderna had never created any of these processes, so we were creating them as we went along for this development plan program. And now that we’re scaling up to doing so much more work, um, we are trying to recognize what got us there and what we can.
Where do we need to create more process, and where do we just always want to be this nimble? So strategic decision making is an example of somewhere where you really want to be very crisp and nimble. You don’t want to have teams having to wait weeks and months to go to governance and have to go and do all those pre-meetings and navigate all of the, you know, the different opinions before they go into the room.
You’ve got to decide what to your culture going to be of decision making. How are decisions going to be made? Are you then prepared to operationalize and execute on those decisions with great speed? And, and how quickly can you do that? Um, and sort of hold onto the core of that incredibly nimble pandemic, strategic and execution capability.
That we developed. And I think, um, I remember talking to one of my peers who was working for a much larger company, one of the big giants that was, um, in the vaccine development space with us. And I was. Talking about the need to get something approved and having to sort of hunt down two people to do it.
And she said, well, I have to get it through about 600. Right? And that’s the difference. I know she was being, you know, a little sarcastic probably in her comment, but I think she was trying to say the point that. Um, you know, everybody has, wants to have an an opinion and then that’s when you start to realize how important it is, how you structure your organization and the processes you put put into it.
Um, and when you start to feel that things are really slowing down because you need to go and gain yet another opinion on something, then you probably need to kind of sit back and go, okay, if we got this right, because we didn’t need all of that last time on, what’s changed?
Naji Gehchan: I love it. It’s reminding me about organization, lab, and, you know mm-hmm.
All the design work we need to go through. It’s, it’s, yep, totally. Uh, if I, if I double click last question here on, now that your adrenaline cutoff is going down, how are you making sure that your team and how can we make sure as leaders, uh, that our team constantly think of the purpose and why we do what we do after the adrenaline rush?
Melanie Ivarsson: Yeah. Again, another fabulous question. Um, you know, one of the things that we grapple with here all the time is how do you pull that culture through an organization and how? Um, how do you do that when you scaled so quickly? So I’ve, in the last three years have done a 20 x build. So I started with 30 people.
My organization’s now about 600 and it will grow again, maybe nearly double, um, again within the next year. That’s an extraordinary build because actually, I used, I’ve gone from knowing everybody’s name and knowing them reasonably well to not, and, and that’s difficult for any leader. And so you need to disseminate out, um, the culture and what’s important and be visible and contactable.
Um, we had a lot of people in the pandemic wherever they were. And so we’re not, it’s, we can’t even just bring everybody back into the office. I think the whole industry has grappled with virtual ways of working. So we’ve created, hopefully an environment that is much better for people’s own wellness, lifestyle, work life balance, because they can work where they’re at and they can fit in other important things in their lives much more easily.
Um, but at the same time, Cultural core of an organization. And that purpose of, of what’s important is becomes very dispersed in that. So we created, at Moderna, we created something called the Moderna mindset, and they, these are 12 mindsets that cover many of our, the ways we, we think about things. Um, it’s.
We pursue options in parallel, we pivot fearlessly in the face of new data. We’ve, we obsess over learning. These are just examples of some of them and there are way of speaking to each other in our own language, um, to make sure that we’re asking each other the right questions. We’re challenging each other the right way.
They’re, they’re sort of path, our cultural core and that really helps us. Move programs, move our work forward together because we, we have a very strong culture that everyone’s bought into. Um, and it allows us, I think, to have the right conversations. We’re always learning. Um, and as we evolve and grow, we’ll probably think differently about this and evolve and, and grow.
But for now, Those mindsets, that understanding of how you shop together every day and bring people together has been an incredibly strong, um, and effective, uh, mechanism for us, I think. So I would
Naji Gehchan: love to give you now a word and I looking for a reaction to it. So the first one is
Melanie Ivarsson: leader.
And you want me to tell you what I think when I hear that word? Yeah. Yeah. I think leadership is, is for everyone, right? Leadership, everybody in an organization, um, has the opportunity to demonstrate leadership. But I’m gonna react with a word that may surprise you, and that is, I strongly believe that leadership can be kind and there is nothing wrong with leadership taking the full picture into account.
Um, and so I’m gonna react with the word kind.
Naji Gehchan: I love it. It’s, it’s all my podcast co with the mission of spreading love and leadership. So I totally by kind the second word is impact.
Melanie Ivarsson: You want me to react with one word or a sentence?
Naji Gehchan: We can do a sentence.
Melanie Ivarsson: So I think, um, an Im, again, impact is, um, can mean very, very different things to different people.
Um, we. Had the opportunity to have enormous impact on the world. Not everybody gets an opportunity to be part of something like that, and it will define them. I, I see that in my team and my colleagues and the people around me that, that, that, that experienced be defines them to a certain extent now and something they’re rightly incredibly proud of.
Um, but impact can be something. Different. And for me now, it’s about enabling others to be the best that they can be. So the impact I would love, um, to leave is my impact on others to amplify what we’ve done and what we believe in. Um, and to, to go on to amazing things. Um, and that’s part of the legacy. So if by working with.
Um, my impact on them is something around the way we’ve done things together and made decisions and the, the joy they’ve taken from that and they carry that forward. Um, I would be very happy.
Naji Gehchan: What about health equity?
Melanie Ivarsson: Oh, that’s an incredibly important topic and one that we all became so aware of during the pandemic.
Not only. Disproportionate impact of covid itself on people from different backgrounds, but then access. Um, and so health equity, um, is something that we built into the way we have done things. So, you know, people are possibly aware that we actually made the, uh, very difficult decision halfway through our clinical trial to actually slow down enrollment.
The white population because we actually had a largely white, um, Number of clinical trialists, and so we actually stopped enrolling white people into our clinical trial in order to give access to people from different communities the information to make an informed decision about whether to enroll in the trial.
We thought that was incredibly important thing to do and it allowed us. To go out and build relationships with the different communities. Um, and we built, um, a diversity and inclusion board with a number of health equity experts, and that was probably one of the most single, most important and informative things for me personally that we did.
This was something that, like the rest of the industry I knew was important, but had done very little about person. And now it has become incredibly important to us. And so we now move forward with all our development programs With this in mind, um, And that is very, very important that you not only health equity starts with the way you study a new vaccine or treatment.
Um, we, 20 years ago, we talked about the fact that we didn’t have women in clinical trials, right? That everything was just studied in healthy, young, mostly white men. We’ve, and that then meant that all prescribing information and access actually was only fit for purpose for one small part of the popul.
Um, in order to make sure that there is access for all and equity for all, we’ve actually got to start by asking the right questions for all of mankind, and that starts with the basic clinical research and this topic I’m very passionate about getting right.
Naji Gehchan: The last word is Fred Love and organizations.
Did you say gridlock? Spread love. Can organizations,
Melanie Ivarsson: oh, spread love in organizations. Yeah. I, I, I couldn’t agree with you more. I think, um, people give their hearts and souls to their place of work. Um, they, people in healthcare are just the most incredibly dedicated, passionate, and committed, uh, people in the industry.
Unbelievably altruistic in the way they will put, um, The, the, the project they’re working on, um, above all elses for them. So I think we should thank them by making sure that we know that we want them to look after themselves. Um, wellness is incredibly important. Um, and we strive always to make sure that people take care of themselves first.
And it’s something I always say to people. I do a new high coffee connect once a month for all the new starters into the organization, and I go, Put yourself first, work out what it is that you love and who you love, and put them at the top of your list every day. Um, because nobody should be sacrificing what they love.
Um, for this place, one of the little anecdotes I would, um, share with you is we offered some clinical trialists, um, a a a token of, of appreciation. And they could, um, either exchange it for, um, something for themselves or they could exchange it for a charitable donation. It was extraordinary, the incredibly high number of people who’d not only gone into a clinical trial and dedicate, dedicated their time and effort to the advancement of science, but then when, um, offered.
The opportunity to sort of take a token of appreciation, chose to then even give that to charity. Um, I thought that was, uh, remarkably, uh, interesting about true altruism, um, and how it sort of works in in healthcare.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, Mel, for healthcare leaders around the world?
Melanie Ivarsson: I think, um, We are so blessed to have the opportunity to work in the sector of the industry that we do. Um, hang on to your, um, your true self through all of this. Um, I’m not ashamed to talk about the fact that as a leader, I believe kindness is incredibly important.
That’s who I am. Don’t try and be somebody else. Don’t try and emulate a leader. That you see somewhere else and think, I need to be like them. Be yourself. Whatever is important to you, show up every day. Be principled. Bring yourself to work. Care about the people in your organization. Enable them the best you can get out of their way.
That’s something I spend a lot of time trying to do, um, and, and enjoy it. It’s a real privilege. It’s a real privilege. And one day. You’ll be sitting on a plane next to somebody who’s had their life changed because of something you worked on or developed. Um, in our case with the vaccine, it happens a lot.
Um, it’s incredibly rewarding. Um, but yeah, just look after yourself and look after each other. Wow.
Naji Gehchan: What, what an amazing way to sum up this discussion. Thank you so much, Mel, for being with me today and this incredible chat.
Melanie Ivarsson: Thank you. That was wonderful to meet you. Thank you so much.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to SpreadLove in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Bringing the human voice to inform decisions in healthcare, nothing can be more impactful. Going beyond the facts and the sad reality of inequities, health misinformation, and tragic health outcomes to really deeply understand the “WHY” question. Sema Sgaier, CEO and Co-Founder of Surgo Health, has made this her purpose and focus of her work…More
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host, joined today by Sema Sgaier CEO and Co-Founder of Surgo Health, a healthcare technology company developing a revolutionary socio-behavioral analytics platform and generating novel, real-world data designed to inform and improve health equity and outcomes by enabling a greater understanding of the complex factors that influence how individuals engage in their healthcare. Sema is a serial entrepreneur with close to 20 years of experience in healthcare. She co-founded and led Surgo Foundation and Surgo Ventures, where she led the development of analytic products that solve health problems with greater precision. She was Initiative Lead at the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, where she brought innovations in data, consumer insights, and product introduction into large-scale health programs globally. She has over 60 publications and is a frequent contributor to The New York Times and prestigious media outlets. She is an adjunct assistant professor at the University of Washington. She completed her fellowship in Genomics at Harvard University, Ph.D. in Neuroscience from New York University, and M.A. in Neuroscience from Brown University. Sema is a member of the Board of Directors of the United States of Care. She was selected as a rising talent by the Women’s Forum for Economy and Society.
Sema – It is such an honor and pleasure to have you with me today!
Sema Sgaier: Such a pleasure to be here, Naji. Thank you for inviting me.
Naji Gehchan: Can you share first with us your personal story from genomics to development and now being the CEO and Co-founder of Sergo Health?
What’s in between the lines of your inspiring journey?
Sema Sgaier: Sure. Um, my personal story actually starts, uh, during my childhood. So I was born in Libya to a Libyan father and a Turkish mom. And I was born in a, in a, in a country where healthcare was actually really challenging to get, and I, I had a, a condition that required, um, advanced care.
And so my family, um, had to take me abroad. Uh, and I spent a good chunk of my childhood in hospitals and a good chunk of my adult life having to get. Um, but that really got me inspired in, in health and it got me really inspired and really, um, bringing health to a lot of, uh, people. I was also, um, you know, uh, very interested in science and so that led me to a career, or I started my career, I should say, in genomics and, and neuroscience.
But very quickly, um, missed the, um, the needs or, or really missed working with people and communities. I’d grown traveling all over the world and, and, and really missed that. So the journey started with moving to India. Uh, and starting on the ground, uh, developing surveys in communities, in villages to really understand their needs when it came to help, uh, you know, going door to door, asking families, asking mothers, asking husbands, asking children.
Uh, and that was really the beginning of understanding the power of data, uh, and the power of the human voice in being able to. Not just governments in terms of what the gaps are, but really inform all sorts of activities in communities, um, by companies, et cetera. Um, so, you know, long story short, I won’t, I won’t, uh, describe every step, but I ended up, uh, then eventually joining the Bill and Mill and the Gates Foundation.
Um, in India and lived there, um, for seven years working on, uh, an H I V prevention program. Again, working with communities. Um, and then from there, moved on to work on h I V prevention in Southern and Eastern Africa. The key part and the crux of, of really what I do, um, and I’ll, I can dive deeper into this.
The key part of my, what I learned and all of that work is that we really need to understand what people need on the ground and what. What is behind, um, their actions, their decisions when it comes to how they interact with healthcare, uh, and you know, how they consume healthcare. And, and for me, the really big question that we need to answer is the why question behind people’s behavior.
Um, because we often don’t approach healthcare, uh, you know, by un trying to understand the why. We start with what’s happening in the ecosystem. Um, and so. The three organizations that I co-founded and, and I’ll, you know, I’ll go of course into more details. Sergo Foundation, Sergo Ventures, Sergo Health.
Really the core mission of all three is bringing a big data approach to answer that question for every single individual so that we can inform, um, healthcare in a way that’s personalized to everyone.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much for, uh, for sharing part of your journey, and this is really a great segue. My question, actually, the first one was the mission of Sergo, uh, the different entities and, and really if you can tell us a little bit more your vision about data and how you’re gonna be able to answer those, uh, health issues.
Sema Sgaier: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, let’s start with just thinking about each of ourselves, right? You know, uh, and, and the people that we know. So we know that what people believe in, uh, what they, who they trust and, and, and how they trust, um, you know, the various barriers they face in the ecosystem, whether it’s the time, uh, whether it’s the transport, um, really.
Um, you know, how, how they interact with the healthcare system. And so, but when we look at the health ecosystem today, there’s a lot of data. There’s no lack of data. We’re actually swimming in billions of data. But a lot of it is really telling us, uh, as I mentioned, what is happening so we can map, for example, in the US the complete journey.
You know, which providers that they would, did people see, what were their diagnoses? What medications did they TA take? So that really tells. You know, that pathway, but if you were to ask me, okay, so, so why did this person living in this community not see a provider in the first place? I would be hard pressed to find that data, you know, readily available.
And so really the mission of of, of Sergo, you know, when we started Sergo Foundation, it was, it was really an operating foundation meant to incubate an idea and it was really meant to incubate this idea of how can we bring a big data approach. To really understanding people. So not beyond doing focus groups and having conversations, but how do we generate this data at scale and, and more importantly, and, you know, how do we analyze the idea?
So what are the innovations in the analytics space, and then how do we make it actionable for, for various stakeholders. Um, so Server Foundation, um, again, was really meant to. Demonstrate, incubate this idea. And we successfully did that in various programs actually in India. Um, and then let that led to the spinoff of Servo Ventures and from their um, servo health, which happy to go into the why behind those spinoffs.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, I love it. Before we go into the why of the spinoffs, can we double click cuz you’re, you’re talking really about something that means a lot to me. Insights, right? Like you’re looking into, uh, patients insights, customer insights, to understand the why. Uh, can you share with us some specific example of how do you see, how do you gather those insights at scale?
And then mm-hmm. How do you run those analytics for us to be able, uh, to solve problems, as you say, with precision? I like this word. So how, how, how do you do this practic?
Sema Sgaier: Yeah, there, there are many ways to, to gather data, but I think fundamentally where you have to start is what is it that you wanna collect?
Uh, and I think, um, one of the things we learned very, very quickly is that, um, stepping back and, and really being clear what are the variables that need to be collected to answer the why question is really an important part of the equation. And so, We’ve built, um, over the years, um, a team of, a multidisciplinary team of actually, um, scientists and I would say behavioral scientists who come from various disciplines, right?
So when people approach human behavior, they approach it from a, from various disciplines, right? You have the behavioral economist who are really looking at just biases and heuristics. Uh, you have social scientists who really emphasize the, the social, uh, ecosystem in which people live. But in reality, all of these things really matter.
And so the approach we take in, um, in designing these data collection efforts in, in stepping back and saying, you know, beliefs matter, biases matter, heuristics matter, social norms matter. Um, and then in the context, the laws and policies matter. The systems matter, the access. Influencers, media, all of these matter.
And so we really need to be comprehensive in what we collect and, and so that we can get a complete picture. And so the first, the first step is really making sure that you have a good sense of what you wanna collect. The second step is then, of course, figuring out how, how you, how you collect it. And we have various methodologies.
But one of the things that we do, um, to get scale is a, is actually design a large scale survey. So we collect data in, you know, in the thousands, tens of thousands and, and sometimes hundreds of thousands depending on what platform we use, whether it’s, um, whether we, um, you know, use some of the social media platforms in, in way to get respondents or whether we use panels.
So that gives us the first scale. And then from there we apply our machine learning, um, analytics or predictive models, approaches to be able to then predict that for, you know, all the people that were not part of that initial data collection effort. So there are various steps in this journey. Thanks for sharing
Naji Gehchan: those.
Uh, you, you know, as I was looking, you’ve done incredible work, obviously on several different disease states. H I V you shared about, I saw your work where on Covid 19 and, and the CDCC is taking it. You know, I kept thinking data, precision science, really in an era where I’m like, many times I’m feeling misinformation.
Uh, like wrong theories, hate populism is somehow ruling, sometimes policy actions, but even like people’s actions towards their health that is actually harming them. So since you’re collecting those, Data, are you seeing this trend? Is this something real that you’re seeing? Is this something that is coming out?
I, I would really love your thoughts about precision in data and then actually what we’re seeing that is more fictional, I would say.
Sema Sgaier: Yeah. Um, yeah, unfortunately we are, and, and during the Covid pa pandemic, we, we did see, and in fact we were one of the, the, the first and few who tried to really measure some of this misinformation.
Particularly we measured conspiracy theories, uh, that people were believing in. And, and so we really looked into, What are those theories and actually went in and measured those and, and when I say measured, really tried to understand what percentage of people, for example, believe that, you know, government is using covid to control people, you know, are implanting chips.
Like there’s all sorts of conspiracy theories. And so we wanted to see not only how often, but really who specifically is believing these conspiracy theories. I think when it comes to misinformation and, and, and you talked about data, you know, people at the end of the day believe in. Uh, it’s not about the data, it’s the story and the power of the story.
And, and even as scientists ourselves, you know, what’s really on us is when we want to communicate our data, the, you know, quote unquote, Real true data, we really have to put effort in, in using stories to tell, to tell that so that people can really align to that emotionally. We’re emotional beings. We’ve learned to, you know, listen and hear stories, you know, from thousands of years ago, and that’s what resonates.
And so I think. Storytelling is, is really an important part of, of this equation. And Naji, I don’t know whether that’s the answer you’re looking for, but, but I think that’s really important as scientists and data scientists who sometimes can seem very boring and just crunching numbers.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, no. Well, actually that was my question and I think you answered it.
The, the next one was really from, because you look from a customer, uh, lens, uh, on, on those data. So my question was, is data enough to convince? But I think you, you said it beautifully, it’s really about the story and how to shape those data in a language that is emotional enough for, for patients, for customers to change behavior.
Uh, I’d love if you have some specific example where actually. Because you talked about the actionability of what you do. So I’m, I’m intrigued and interested to, uh, to see how you turn those insights into actions to improve at the end patient’s health.
Sema Sgaier: Yeah. Yeah. I’ll g I’ll give you, uh, I have two, but I’ll, I’ll start with one and then, uh, happy to move on to the site.
And so the first one actually goes way back when I was working in India, uh, on h I V prevention. And there we were working, uh, with high-risk groups. And these were, um, sex workers, injecting drug users and, and men who had sex with men. And actually what was really interesting about this program was that community members were the, um, were people that were leading and delivering this program to their peers.
Uh, and so here you had, um, sex workers who had to go out to the community to be able to provide the services, and so it was very important for them. To know where these members were. And it was very important to them to know, for example, where the nearest clinic healthcare clinic was, where the nearest police station was, where the nearest safe house was, et cetera.
And so while the, um, you know, the, the scientists were collecting this data to put in the hands of this community. The question was how do we communicate this data in a way that they, you know, that, that they could use? And what they came up with was, was so interesting was, um, drawings, right? They, they took this data and rather than having these like sheets of like line items of here’s, you know, here’s where this person is and their address, they actually did these beautiful hand drawn, um, kind of, um, diagrams where they actually mapped locations and, you know, there were, there were like these children’s maps, but they showed where everything was.
And so this was. For me, it was an incredible example of taking hard data, right? Transforming it in, in, in, in a visual story and then putting it in hands of, um, actually people who deliver health so that their day-to-day healthcare delivery was, was, you know, effective. And, and, and it was, you know, we, we had a lot of evidence that this worked.
Naji Gehchan: I love this. Can you share the other, other
example?
Sema Sgaier: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The, the other example goes back to Covid. Uh, and again, you know, we all lived Covid and we also know that it was, it was, um, bombardment of information for all of us. Uh, and one of the, one of the approaches that we took during Covid is, uh, actually.
Data visualization and, and, and really, again, bringing art to telling that data story. So, uh, we, we had this amazing, we did these amazing stories with the New York Times. And so one of the stories that we did was a, was called Find Your Line in Your, find Your Place in the Vaccine Line. Uh, it was, I think one, it was the top red story of the New York Times that, that year or something like that.
But it, but it, you know, I don’t know if you remember in the early days, we were also concerned, when are we gonna get our vaccine shot? How long were we gonna wait? Now it’s a very different world. And so the, and we had that data. So we, we actually, um, were able to, um, show which group was gonna get their vaccine when across the United States.
And they did this beautiful visual where you could go in and put a few of your details, like your age, where you lived, and then they would draw this, uh, visual line and they would tell, You know, you’re gonna get your vaccine in 300 days or so. I’m, I’m making this up. But it was such an impactful way of actually communicating, um, you know, this notion of there’s, uh, an order at which these vaccines are going to be delivered.
You know, there’s certain priority populations that need to get it first. Um, and it, it was, it, it was, you know, so well read and people resonated with that. People understood it. They understood that whole vaccine delivery schedule, right, that we had in the early days through, through data and story.
Naji Gehchan: I love it.
What, what you’re talking about is just, it resonates so much, right? Like from, from really data, it’s all about data, right? But from data generation to understanding the why, not only the what and and what’s going on, but also on how you tell and how you share the story to make an impact at the end on, on people’s lives.
I love this. I wanna pivot though to, uh, to a question more on leadership. So you’ve had several experiences, uh, obviously in in non-profit, uh, with, uh, the Gates Foundation. You’re a serial entrepreneur. You’ve also founded a profit for-profit, uh, company recently. Uh, I’d love to, uh, to get what are your key learnings from a leadership standpoint, uh, that you are taking with you today from all those experiences and running, uh, your.
Uh, endeavor as a c e O.
Sema Sgaier: Mm-hmm. Um, Being a leader is, is, is an, uh, you’re always learning how to be a leader. I, I, I think it’s every day you’re, you’re, you’re going, you know, two steps forward, five steps backwards. I, it’s, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s a never ending, I would say, um, learning process. Um, and, and I, you know, I certainly have a long ways to go in, in, in that, in that place.
Um, so what are some of my learnings, you know, Several, but one I would say, um, is that leadership, um, in many ways actually, um, has to be adapted to the culture and context and environment that you’re in. Um, you know, I I, I worked in many different countries and many different types of organizations, but one of the.
I’ll give you an example. So when I first started my, my job in India, that was kind of my first job outside of academia. And I was, you know, leading, um, you know, these research groups on the ground. You know, really my first job managing teams, or I should say big teams. And I would, you know, show up into these trainings and, uh, you know, day one people show up.
Day two people showed up. And then day two before they started, like falling, you know, Two people were missing three people. And then one day I was just so down and I went home and, you know, I had a roommate, she was, uh, from India, and I said, what is going on? People are not showing up. And um, she said, you know, you have to adapt to the culture.
You know, you have to, you have to lead in a way that resonates to them. And so that led me really to introspect and, and to really adapt. And so, and, and that was really true across right From there, then I moved to, um, you know, the, the India Office of the Gates Foundation, which was a small team of 15 people that was led by, um, the ex country head of McKinsey, India that everyone else was, was ex McKinsey.
And that was a totally different environment. My point is that, uh, when you are leading teams, The culture can be so different depending on what country, which country you are, and what type of organization you are. And so in many ways, you need to adapt your leadership skills, um, you know, to that. Really, that was one of my, my key learnings.
Um, the second one I think is, is, is really being authentic, right? I, I think in the initial days I was thinking, well, how do I become like that person or that leader or, you know, people that I admired and, and. Quickly learned that that’s, that’s a bad idea. Um, you are who you are. You, you cannot change who you are, but you can adapt.
Um, but you really need to be au authentic as you know. And you need, you need to be, um, honest and, and, you know, and, um, you know, be who you are in, in that environment. Um, so those are, for me, the, the key learnings. I have many, but those, I would say stand top for me.
Naji Gehchan: Thanks, Sarah, for this. Uh, I would give you now one word and I’d love your reaction to.
So the first, the first one is leadership
challenging. The second one is women in science. Inspirational. Can you share a little bit more? I know you’re, you’re passionate about diversity and, and women in leadership and
Sema Sgaier: science. Um, I, I’m, I’m very inspired by, um, well, first of all, I’m a scientist and I think, uh, women in science, uh, are, are really phenomenal and, and we need way more of them.
Uh, and I find it really in. Inspiring, uh, to actually coach and develop and, and have women in science grow. And, and I’ve actually dedicated a lot of, of, of my, I should say, leadership, uh, you know, skills to that as well. So, so I, I, I find it inspiring seeing more women in, in science.
Naji Gehchan: Can, can you tell me the number one advice you give to, uh, women and uh, and young girls that are in science or want to go there?
Sema Sgaier: Uh, be bold. Uh, you know, go for
Naji Gehchan: it.
The third word is health equity.
Sema Sgaier: A must the, I give you a two word answer.
Naji Gehchan: Give me more. I, I wanna hear more about how you look at equity, because I know it’s, uh, one of the core values of, uh, of also sergo.
Sema Sgaier: Yeah, I think we look at equity as something on top, right? Like something else. Something in addition.
Equity to me is everything. It’s core, right? Equity. To me, equity is everyone. Equity means that, you know, every single person needs to be part of that. And, and that’s really equity, right? It’s, it’s not about like, There’s, there’s the core and then there’s another group. You know, it, it really, if you have equitable healthcare, essentially what that means is that you’re making sure that the barriers to, um, you know, living a healthy, happy life is for all.
Uh, you remove the barriers for all, and those barriers are exist for all. And they’re very different for all right? For you and I, it may be a time issue, but it really is a must and, and that’s something we should all strive for, uh,
Naji Gehchan: for. The last one is spread love in organizations.
Sema Sgaier: Oh, amazing. It actually reminds me, uh, if you don’t mind, Naji, since you brought, uh, you brought this, um, I, it reminds me of love languages, and this is something I’ve been thinking a lot about, you know, talking about leadership. One of the things about leadership, I think that’s really important is, um, how to motivate, you know, knowing how to motivate different people, uh, and understanding that different people are motivated by, by different reasons.
And it was really interesting. One of, one of my, um, one of my colleagues, one, you know, during his first week shared his love language with me just out of the blue and said, you know, my love language is words of affirmation and I. Okay. You know, I was like, that’s weird, you know, sharing your love language.
Uh, that was first week, but then, In retrospect, it, it is actually we need the, our professional love languages, right? We, we need to understand what is it that really motivates us, or what is it that really, um, gets us, you know, to, to be loving. Uh, and I, and I, and I think that’s really important, right?
Whether, whether it’s words of affirmation, whether. You know, it is the outcome or you know, whether it’s quality time or, you know, you can, you can translate it to work. But, sorry, the, when you said that spread love, I, it reminded me of the love languages and, and I think it’s a, it’s an important piece of the puzzle.
Naji Gehchan: It certainly is, and it’s a great reminder for all of us. Any final word of wisdom sum up for healthcare leaders around
Sema Sgaier: the. Um, I think this is, to me, it is the most important, uh, one of our most important topics of our time. And I, I would say that for everyone, be bold, uh, step up and, and really go after big ideas.
I think we are at a time where we have the opportunity to actually take a lot of big ideas forward and, and make this something for, you know, health for all. It’s, it’s really important. So, really go for it.
Naji Gehchan: This is such, such an amazing charger leaving us all with. Thank you so much, uh, SVA for being with me today.
Sema Sgaier: Thank you. It was an honor. I appreciate it.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to Spread Love in Organizations podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this episode, joined today by Amy Kimball an Executive & Leadership Coach and former biomedical research CEO. Prior to launching her coaching business in 2022, Amy had been coaching professionals on the side for 15 years, while she held leadership roles in academic biomedical research. During her tenure as CEO of a midsized biomedical research institute, she led a turnaround to rebuild a culture of excellence, high performance, and people-centered service. Prior to that, she held research administrative leadership roles at large, Boston-based academic medical centers. Amy holds an Executive MBA from MIT Sloan School of Management and has completed Georgetown University’s Leadership Coaching program. She coaches CEOs and other leadership positions that feel “lonely at the top;” mentors and advises start-ups; and serves in peer coaching roles within the helping professions community.
Amy – so great to have you with me today!
Naji Gehchan: Can you share with us first your personal story and what’s in between the lines of your journey and the inspiring healthcare leaders you are today?
Amy Kimball: Yeah, so it is a bit of a story. I think there’s sort of two parallel paths to follow in this. So, um, the first path would be my pathway into biomedical research, and that actually goes back to, um, a thread that’s tied from growing up, which is growing up with undiagnosed A D H D and really struggling in school, um, having a very inconsistent experience.
And I poured my energy into persistence, grit, hard physical work. Um, instead of really finding a way to navigate the academic system that worked for me and I was actually not planning, I didn’t think that I was college material, so I wasn’t planning on pursuing a higher ed path. Um, but I was fortunate. I had a guidance counselor who invested deeply in me and basically made it his personal mission to get me into college.
And he did. So I went to, um, undergrad, just loving science and medicine and math, and wanted to pursue a pre-med track. But found out early on in my first semester during cell biology that I just couldn’t process the learning, um, in a way that made any sense to me. And I flunked out of that intro class.
Um, had a conversation with my advisor and basically it was made very clear to me, this is a four year track. You have to keep up and because you’ve already flunked the first class, there’s no way you can pursue this major. So I switched over to an English major. I struggled to stay in school. Honestly, I had a very low GPA initially until halfway through.
Yeah, again, just through sheer persistence and grit, keeping myself going halfway through my college experience, I got this sort of earth shattering, um, awareness of what A D H D really was about and got my diagnosis and treatment. Um, so I graduated with an English major. Which I really felt opened every door for me.
It was not restrictive. It was something where I could take communication skills and good research practices and really defending a thesis towards anything. And when I came out of college with, by the way, a, a pretty high GPA in the end, because of this turnaround that happened with my, my diagnosis and treatment, I was just eager to get in the workplace and get doing.
So I chose, I moved back home to the Boston area and I chose to look for just any general admin job in a hospital setting so I could be close to healthcare because I was still very passionate about it. And I found myself in a biomedical research setting within a, a teaching hospital. Um, I noticed early on that the labs were engaging in sort of, um, a very science centric only approach, and then there was this administrative sort of divide happening, the rules, the compliance, the, the black and white thinking, and I was in administration.
And I was really unsatisfied with that divide. I just didn’t understand why it had to be that way. So I took a, a deep interest in the science to try to understand what that world was like. And in the process of, of talking with folks and going to scientific talks, I learned a lot about the science that I wasn’t able to learn in that college setting.
And I started to really understand what was going on and have a deep appreciation for the work. Um, and so what I did was I basically said, look, I’m interested in everything. Give me anything you wanna give me. I’ll take it on, I’ll figure it out and I’ll try to make your life. And of course people loved that.
They jumped all over it. Um, I was given a lot. I became sort of the resident problem solver and my goal was always, how can I make science easier and less friction and more successful? Um, so I, I kind of quickly rose through the ranks within that organization and, and other organizations in town. And basically built a career on the basis of this creative problem solving.
And after a few years I, I was able to see a shift in perspective where it was moving from no longer me, the sole doer of problem solving, but really into investing in teams of people who also were interested in this problem solving and helping to lead that and cheerlead on behalf of the organization in leadership roles.
To get things done better and to. Deliver that customer-centric service to making research thrive. Um, in 2017, I became the c e o of a mid-sized organization, biomedical research organization, and through that investment in our people and in our processes, but really through their eyes. What’s the work you are doing?
What’s working? What’s not working? What would you like to see? How can we better serve our customers? We, as a team, were able to drive a very significant turnaround of an organization that wasn’t working well and that had some divides with its own customers. To an organization that helped the science thrive and really was able to advance things forward in a productive way, and also a culture that people love to be a part of where they felt valued and individually invested in.
So that’s the, the thread of biomedical research, but ending on that piece where people felt valued and invested in, there’s also this thread of my executive coaching. Which goes back about 15 years and started because people would just start approaching me in systems initially within my system. And talk to me about potential leadership development.
Um, what they were observing was something really common in systems, which is managers and leaders were getting promoted on the basis of skills and e. And like many systems, they just hadn’t been invested in in terms of their own leadership development or management development. And they didn’t know how to let go of the doing and the skills and that deeply embedded work.
And so it was frustrating for members of teams to, to live with that and feel like they couldn’t progress. So they would come to me. And the beauty of it is, you know, I think a lot of people think they want to trash talk the situation, but it wasn’t about negative talk about managers. It was about. What do you want for yourself and how can we help you get there?
And that’s coaching. So that work continued to expand on the side. Um, people just kept, kind of kept coming my way. And that work expanded beyond my organization into other organizations and higher levels of leadership. Um, and when I had completed the turnaround as C e O, I started to think to myself, you know, I’ve achieved my career goals faster than I thought.
What’s the thing in my life that really brings me the most fulfillment that I wanna invest in now? And the answer was such an obvious, it’s this executive coaching work, it’s human and people development. And, um, I took this bold risk of quitting my executive job last year and going full-time dedicated into this private practice that I started.
And I’ve absolutely loved the work completely. Thanks so
Naji Gehchan: much, Amy, for, for sharing, uh, part of your story and it’s, uh, incredible how you’re framing both of them. Uh, I’d love to start, you know, before going into your current company that you founded on your current practice, uh, you’ve been, uh, really in several leadership roles in academic and nonprofit, biomedical research organizations as you shared, uh, I would love your thoughts about leading nonprofits and.
Learnings along the way when you compare it to executives you coach in the profit
Amy Kimball: sector. Yeah, so this topic has a lot of misunderstanding surrounding it, and I’m glad you asked about it. So one thing is that people often feel that there’s a very big difference between for-profit and nonprofit work, and that can be true, but not in all cases, especially in biomedical research.
I found. Most people on the surface wouldn’t have known we were in the nonprofit sector. The only differences were, instead of shareholder value, we were focused on stakeholder value and reinvesting our profits in our programs so that we would continue to advance them. And the other thing is just simply how we derived our funding, which was a lot of federal grants and industry contracts.
Um, but day-to-day, You know, the practices are the same. And if you, especially if you’re a mission-driven leader in any sector, it’s all about thinking about the mission and perpetuating the mission’s advancement. So when I work with, and I typically do work with in my coaching people who are very oriented, I feel no difference.
And I’ve never, no one’s ever really cited a difference from me either. And, and I would really like to, People understand that there doesn’t have to be a difference, right? It’s especially in healthcare, like we’re all servant leaders and we’re all dedicated to terrific outcomes for the people we’re caring for.
Yeah, I, I’d
Naji Gehchan: say we all should be, you know, servant leaders and I think we, we’re trying, we’re trying to get there and I’m sure with your coaching, it’s something you’re focused on. So let, let’s go to the specific example that you gave about, uh, what the time when you were the C E O. Uh, and did a huge turnaround.
Uh, you talked about helping sign Thrive and the culture you created Drew and, and you rebuild this culture of excellence, high performance, and people centered. I’d love to know how you did this, because it’s usually with turnarounds, uh, it’s tough moments, tough decisions to be made, and then creating this culture.
Of people feeling safe and thriving. You used the word servant leadership. So I, I’d like to hear from you how you did that and how you’ve put all this together for its work.
Amy Kimball: Yeah, and it wasn’t easy and there were a lot of moments that were very, very lonely at the top. Um, which by the way does inspire my coaching work because, um, it’s a way to allow leaders to not be alone.
What happened was, so I came into an organization that, um, on the surface what I knew about it was that we were relying on business walking in the door and being handed to us. And I, I just, that didn’t sit well with me. I felt like no matter the circumstances or how needed we might be, we should be earning our business and we should be doing that through relationships and through our ability to serve our clients in a useful way that adds value in their life.
When I started to uncover what, what had gone on, I found more and more that just this culture had been created that represented sort of a div again, the divide in practice administration versus science. And I, I had been there and I thought, we can break these barriers down, but we have to all be in as an administrative team.
We have to all value that and care about that and want that. And it couldn’t be all but one of us. It had to be every one of us united in that mission and in that way of viewing things. So initially I started by engaging in working with the team in just talking and listen. Asking questions, asking them about their experience.
Um, why do you work here? Why do you like working here? Why don’t you like working here? Um, what’s most fulfilling in your work? What’s least fulfilling? What’s most frustrating? And we uncovered a lot of common themes between us around some of the things that, you know, that that really worked well and didn’t.
And we started to find over time. That a lot of our frustrations were the same, which is really interesting because people don’t talk about their frustrations. And I think that these subtle divides start to emerge around like, it’s your fault. No, it’s my fault. No, you don’t understand me. I don’t understand you.
How could you prioritize that? I’m prioritizing this, and it feels like they’re in competition. But when we started to openly. What’s frustrating to you? What would you like to see improved? There was more common ground than anyone realized, and then, you know, I think people would’ve ever believed. So the first moment of magic in this turnaround was when everyone, we did an exercise where we just simply listed out the things that were Bo, that were worrying us and shared it with the.
And, and we did it on individual post-it notes. And when the same theme was brought up, we would layer it on top of the Post-It and people got to see visually, whoa, there’s a lot of layering going on on this one theme. Wow, we’re actually sharing the same worries. It’s not about you versus me, it’s about us.
And then from there we started to invest in, from a bottom up perspective, what would you like to. To solve you. And I said, as leader of the organization, I said, you are closest to the work. You know it, what would you like to do to improve this situation? And that was very empowering because it had been a, an organization of these are the rules and people were very afraid to cross those lines.
So that, that energized the team around like, oh, great, I get to do something here. I get to have a say and a stake in this. And they really designed amazing solutions that, that worked for them, those the people like in the trenches doing this. Um, that we, we had to have the discipline to do in a very incremental way so that it could be sustainable.
Um, so a big, I would say that the majority of the transformation was culture. And when the cultural stuff started to come into place, the structural stuff quickly followed.
Naji Gehchan: I love this. You talked about listening, you ask questions, obviously, uh, a lot, and you listen to the answers. And it’s really about you’re bringing this idea of cowork and practically co building and let people who are operationalizing things.
Think about it and cowork and cobalt, the culture you want to create. This is, this is really great. Um, anything you would have done differently leading such a major organization? Uh, organizational change when you think of it? Oh,
Amy Kimball: I’m sure there’s a lot of things. Um, there were, you know, I, I guess I started the story by saying it was lonely at the top, and I always felt very supported by my team and by my board.
Um, they were just wonderful, wonderful colleagues, um, who were truly lifting me up in the process of lifting ourselves collectively up. But there were probably moments where I turned a little bit too inward and a little too isolationist because I felt like the world was on my shoulders alone. Um, and where I, where I could and would invest in the team.
There were these moments where I just thought, no, I can’t drag them into this. This is mine to resolve. And I just would say that’s kind of a red flag for our, our own thinking. If we think that we own a whole problem and its whole solution alone, that’s probably a trigger to start thinking how might that not be true?
And what else could we. That’s a great watch
Naji Gehchan: out. Uh, as you coach today, executives in different industries, I assume, what’s your number one capability you urge them to nurture or to develop
Amy Kimball: introspection? So it’s, a lot of people come to coaching thinking that it’s about skills building and concrete skills when it always ends up being.
Self-development looking deeper what’s going on below the surface. And it hearkens back to the earlier point about people love to, they find relief, I think, in complaining about their surroundings. And you know, my manager’s not fair to me, they’re not investing in me. But that doesn’t get anything done.
It doesn’t change circumstances. So how can we flip that into, well, what’s going on with. What do you notice in yourself whenever you get into these common patterns that make you feel really awful afterwards, what can you notice? What are the trends and how are you handling it now, and how might that be perceived by others?
And we explore all of that, and then we talk about, all right, well, what do you want for. And I think it just opens this world of, wow, I have a choice in this. You know, there’s actually some levers I can pull and things I can do differently, even though my circumstances aren’t great. That can influence outcomes in a way that’s much more values aligned for the person and also can create a new dynamic.
Naji Gehchan: It’s, can we double click on this because obviously there’s a lot. Coaches, I’ve been, you know, as, as a leader manager, obviously it’s one of your biggest job to coach people as you’ve done for several years before getting into fully your business, now being executive coaching ca, can you share a little bit more and help people understand what it, what is it about?
Because there is so many, like the coaching industry, I feel is kind of exploding. We’re seeing so many people starting to be coaches. I’d love, Kara, what is your take about coaching and how do you approach it, uh, with executive.
Amy Kimball: So I approach it similarly to what we talked about with the team at the beginning of any engagement is about me listening and learning.
So I like to get to know someone, hear about their background, hear about their story, and some of the things that have shaped them. And I think that serves a dual role of me gaining understanding about them, but also them releasing some understanding about themselves and connecting some of those dots around.
Oh yeah, this is something that really shaped and influenced the way I show up in life all the time, including work. And from there we start to talk mostly about, so in a session, someone will bring whatever’s going on in their work right now that’s frustrating them. And through some introspective questions that I’ll ask them, we’ll start to talk about, well, you know, I can understand how frustrating this situation is.
Um, what can you notice about. And so it really goes very quickly into that introspective place, and I, I believe that that’s the role of executive coaching. There are other forms of coaching that can be very skills development oriented, and there’s a great place for that. Um, but executive coaching, people who have risen to these levels have the skills they have.
They’re incredibly smart, incredibly driven, incredibly skilled skills, is not the problem. If there is a problem, it’s about have you been able to look deeper and, and by the way, the higher up you get, the less direct feedback you get from people around you. So have you been able to look deeper and think about and process what could be going on that you can do something about rather than just the external environment?
Naji Gehchan: I would give you now a word and I’d love a reaction, uh, that comes to mind. So the first one is,
Amy Kimball: So I think leadership is about an ability to make decisions under uncertainty that are for the collective good and the collective whole. So moving beyond yourself and what benefits you to, what benefits the whole system.
What about mentorship? I think mentorship has a really important place in this too. I think mentorship is more around being a direct sponsor for someone and serving as a role model. Um, and that’s where some of the life experiences and the shared approaches and exchange of ideas really comes in more directly through mentorship.
And that’s about enabling yourself to learn from other people’s experiences. And help shape what decisions they wanna make.
Naji Gehchan: What about lonely at the top? And you said it a couple of times.
Amy Kimball: Yeah. Um, I think lonely at the top is in inevitability in some ways. Um, there is a lot of weight on the shoulders of leaders and. There isn’t a lot of direct feedback. Um, there are a lot of resources and there are a lot of support structures, but there isn’t a lot of direct feedback, and I think loneliness at the top involves not having a, a real sounding board.
And I think that’s another role for executive coaching is just having someone to air some of these challenges that you really can’t bring the whole system into in a safe, confidential space. The reality is while you’re working through the ambiguity, there are moments in time where you just can’t bring the team into every single level of that ambiguity.
Once it’s ready in some way, I believe in sharing some of the uncertainty and being very honest about the way things are, including when they’re not good. But I do think there’s some working out that needs to happen, and that’s part of that loneliness at the top.
Naji Gehchan: And does this, uh, touch all the part of like, being supported?
There’s, you know, I, I had the pleasure to talk with several, you know, coaches, thinkers, and even executives who share, uh, you know, like, I, I don’t wanna use the word mental health, right? But it’s, it’s somehow the loneliness that you feel leaders. We don’t take care of ourselves enough. Sometimes we are really thinking about others organization.
To, to a point where unfortunately sometimes it’s a little bit too late until we realize we need to take care of ourselves. Is this something in the lonely at the top that you think of or you discuss with, with executives and leaders?
Amy Kimball: Yeah, that’s such a good way to put it, naji. It’s, it’s so true. Yes. It, that has been a universal quality that I think every one of my clients has felt and expressed, and as you said, we aren’t taking care of ourselves, so in many cases, I think it takes us a long time to even realize and be willing to admit to ourselves that it’s true.
Because I think that in our drive we have so much ambition and so much passion that we just put ourself and self-care and self-compassion, not even on the back burner, but not on the burners at all. Um, and I’ve noticed this correlation between. Highly driven people who have really risen to the top and a desire to please and a somewhat of a perfectionistic tendency that we often break down and challenge and talk about.
Um, even just exploring how has the path that’s led you here changed who you are today and how is who you are today? No longer needing to be anchored to the way you were, because that’s another point that a lot of people sort of have a hard time realizing, like, I’ve crossed the threshold that I’ve driven my energy towards all this time.
Now, what do I want for myself?
Naji Gehchan: The last word is spread love in organizations.
Amy Kimball: I think it’s really great what you’re doing with this. I, I couldn’t agree more that love needs to be spread in organizations. Um, it’s what it’s all about. You know, we, especially when we’re thinking of concrete skills, we could apply our concrete skills in just about any setting.
What makes us wanna stay with an organization, hopefully is the culture and part of that culture is. And is finding joy and mission and passion in what we do. And I, I hope that we can do more, finding that love and that more leaders can really lead with more heart, so that we can all just feel human in the place that we’re giving most of our energy too.
Naji Gehchan: I couldn’t agree more. Amy, any final word of wisdom for leaders around the world?
Amy Kimball: Oh, I love that you said leaders around the world because it really is a global community. Um, global is a small community in so many ways, and we’re so interconnected. Um, I just hope that we can keep working to break down these perceptions of competition and divide and just think about what are our common goals and how can we lift ourselves?
Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much for being with me today. Thank you.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to spread love and organization’s podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this podcast joined today by Ashoka Madduri. Ashoka grew up in a small village in south India. After completing his undergrad and masters he obtained DAAD matching scholarship and moved to Germany. He completed his PhD in Organic Chemistry from University of Groningen, Netherlands, where he worked on anti-cancer complex natural products. He performed his post-doctoral research to understand pathways involved in multi-drug resistance in Mycobacterium tuberculosis at Harvard Medical School. Over the years he has worked in multiple biotech companies and developed expertise in business development & corporate strategy. He received his Executive MBA from MIT Sloan School of Management. Currently, he is a Blavatnik Entrepreneurial Fellow at Yale Ventures providing strategy & enabling multiple early-stage life science startups. He’s a Co-founder & CEO of TargetSite Therapeutics, a Yale spin-out, and Partner at Vestra Associates where he advises biotech companies on strategy and partnerships.
Ashoka – it is so good to have you with me today!
Ashoka Madduri: Thank you, Naji . Pleasure is all mine.
Naji Gehchan: Can you share with us, uh, first your story from growing up in a small village in India to Germany, Netherlands, US, and practically always being passionate about healthcare?
What’s, what’s in between the lines of this incredible story? Sure.
Ashoka Madduri: Uh, nai, it’s a long story. I think, uh, I will start, uh, my, uh, in a story from, uh, the s I grew up in South. We were, uh, we were a farmer’s family. My mother passed away when I was around six years old, and it was a really tough time for me and my dad.
My dad left us and, uh, remarried and left the villas. Uh, my, uh, my aunt, my dad’s, uh, sister took me in, uh, special woman who changed my life forever. Uh, so we used to, we used to form together to sustain. So we grew rice, cotton, vegetables, flowers to sell raised buffalos to salt their milk. Uh, so I couldn’t go to school full-time.
Uh, I had to work in a farm and take buffalos for grazing. Uh, so fetched, uh, drinking water from over two kilometers while, while I’m growing up, and sometimes the pot would break halfway. So, uh, so now your water is gone and your pot is gone. You can start all over. That is, that is really in a nutshell, my story when I’m growing up.
So, so basically, uh, uh, with that, uh, uh, growing up story in small villages, uh, I somehow finished, uh, uh, my childhood and my thought, uh, before I leave, I left my village right to bigger city to continue my college education. My aunt, the special woman in my life, taught me hope, optimism, and patie. That is, that is really, I took that to heart and I, wherever I go in my journey, I took it with me.
And that really helped me to, uh, you know, to be where I am and also spreading to the community I’m in, family and also industries. So, uh, I, I think, uh, uh, after I left my villages, uh, we, uh, I moved into, uh, town where I finished. My undergrad, my undergraduate, and also my master’s. So, Another religious during this time, another religious, my mom’s brother took me, uh, took me to stay with him, uh, for college.
Uh, it was totally different world in the city. I studied for Bachelor’s in science. Uh, the books were in English because, uh, in, during my villages, uh, my education was in, uh, local telegu medium. So I never exposed to studying textbooks in, uh, in English. So I had no idea what was written in them. So I purchased the same books in.
Local language and studied both books. Uh, side by side. The relative supported me temporarily. Even families can’t even make ends meet during this time. Even the small amount of Lao they showed. Done miracles in my life. So imagine if we can get even more in our families, industry and communities we are living in.
So that is something, uh, I always, uh, go back and remind myself, uh, how much, uh, smaller, uh, affection and, uh, care and love had impact in my life. So that is, that is my college’s life. Uh, uh, na you know, once I finished. Undergrad and masters in chemistry. I took, uh, my first flight to Germany, uh, by obtaining a dad matching fund scholarship.
Uh, so, uh, uh, follow following that, I finished my PhD in university, uh, CRO Netherlands, where I met, uh, uh, my wife, uh uh, my wife. Life, life law because this theme of your podcast is Lao, see Changed over my life Forever. Forever from there. And it’s a, it’s a, it’s a ki kind of big memory for me. Like during that time, I’m also discovering myself, uh, there is education part and also I’m also discovering myself, um, and found this, uh, law and, uh, spreading throughout, uh, in my college education and also meeting the communities, uh, under, under the impact it has, you know, in my, on myself and also the communities.
Uh, I’m, I’m, I’m living, I’m living at the time, so, uh, Nai, I’m sorry. I, I think, uh, I’m thinking, if you don’t mind, can you pause this? Sorry.
Uh, thank you nai, uh, that is, uh, really a, you know, uh, a heavy question because I, I see this in a couple of parts. Uh, so one is a hard work education, uh, discovering. Family, friendship, work on giving back. So I will, I will, I will, uh, touch base, uh, e each, each segment one by one. So I grew up in a small village.
We were a farmer’s family. My mother passed away when I was around six years old, and it was a really tough time for me. My dad left us and remarried, left the village. My aunt, my dad, sister took me in special. Women who changed my life forever. We used to farm together to sustain us. We grew rice, cotton, vegetables, flowers to sell, raised buffalos sold their milk, so I couldn’t go to school full-time.
I had to work in farm and take buffalos for grazing, fetch drinking water from over two kilometers, and sometimes the pot would break halfway. So now water is gone and the pot is gone. So we, uh, so we can start all over. That’s, that’s, uh, my life in a nutshell. Uh, during growing up in a small village, during this all the time, my aunt taught me hope, optimism on patience.
I took this close to my heart. Uh, I always take this, uh, wherever I go, and I always try to cultivate this, uh, hope optimism patients in communities, families and industry. Wherever I worked, I’m applying to, uh, work going. So this is, uh, my childhood. Uh, now the released by me goes to City. Somehow I finished school and, uh, another lady, my mom’s brother took me to stay with, with him for college.
It was totally different world in the city. I studied for Bachelor’s in Science. The books were in English. I had no idea what was written in them. I purchased them same books in my local language and studied both side by side. Uh, the relatives, uh, supported me temporarily. Even families can’t even make Smit during this time.
Even the small amount of Lao they showed. Done miracles in my life. Imagine if you can get even more in our families, industry and communities we are living in. This is, this is really something, uh, uh, that really reflected on my life. Uh, imagine the small amount of care and love and affection changed my whole life forever.
Imagine. We can spread this throughout the communities and families industry we are living in. And, uh, what, what are the things we can change under the impact we can have in the. So, uh, uh, after, uh, uh, finishing, uh, my undergrad, uh, in the city, I obtained a spirit of, uh, excellent scholarship and, uh, completed a master’s in chemistry.
Following that, I obtained a prestigious, uh, dad matching funds fellowship, and moved to Germany. Uh, that is, was my first flight to flying to Germany. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Uh, so following that, I finished my PhD, uh, from, uh, in west of Krogan Netherlands. Uh, I found my. My wife, I fell in Lao and that changed, uh, my life, uh, uh, forever.
Uh, as this, uh, podcast theme is Lao and that is one of the important component, um, of, uh, finding Lao not only in families, but also in communities and also the education, the place you are in. Uh, so, uh, following the, finishing my PhD, uh, I crossed the pond once again, moved to hardwood medical school to finish my postdoc.
Continued my professional journey, uh, in, uh, in, in, in the, in United States here. Work in small and medium sized biotech companies. Uh, built teams. Started as a, uh, head of r and d research and development built teams from scratch. Uh, uh, continued my, uh, professional journey into business development, corporate strategy and consulting.
While I’m doing this, I also finished, uh, my, uh, m mba, uh, from m I t. Uh, currently, I’m, uh, also working as a blaa entrepreneur fellow helping faculty. To, uh, you know, helping faculty on, on strategy help, uh, strategy to take their companies to next level. Uh, so I’m also, uh, uh, running a, a small company that’s a el startup is target side therapeutics.
It’s a small team, uh, but still in, even in a small team, the. Care, nurture, uh, em, uh, empowering people is very, very important because we are building from scratch that set the tone for our next generation of, uh, employees that are going to come into the company. So I’ll stop, uh, here. Nai, you know, uh, uh, I’m, I’m happy to continue if you have any other questions on this.
Well, thank you
Naji Gehchan: so much for sharing. It’s just such an inspiring story. Um, and thanks for sharing openly, uh, all, all you’ve done and, and your leadership and beliefs, uh, that I definitely believe like you and, uh, can you share with us? You’re learning specifically on being an immigrant, like there is more and more discussions about the immigrant mindset being an immigrant and you know, entrepreneurship, et cetera.
I’d love to, to see if your story of, you know, immigration moving those countries, uh, with the hardship that you shared, has this impacted at all your entrepreneurial journey and how you lead teams?
Ashoka Madduri: Excellent question, naia. I think, uh, totally, totally right. Uh, for me, I see entrepreneurship as, Is, uh, rewarding, but first of all is a really high, highly risk taking.
So I think, uh, coming, coming back to, uh, my personal story Rise, uh, and also, uh, it, it, it’s, uh, same story for any immigrant, right? Living their, uh, country taking risk to go to different country and new environment, new people, new language, uh, until, uh, uh, really. Kind of being com being comfortable learning that stuff, uh, and producing that is required.
Uh, you know, to sustain your life is not easy. Actually. I think that same thing you I’ll see in entrepreneurship too. It’s risk taking. It’s a lot of risk involved. Uh, so I think as immigrant, uh, I think it is, becomes a. Second nature to you to take that, uh, uh, risk and, uh, really build the companies.
Actually, I think, uh, that is the reason I see, I believe that, you know, um, uh, United States become United States just because that, uh, uh, you know, uh, risk takers like immigrants, people who come here and build this, uh, country, what it is now today. So
Naji Gehchan: you’ve been working in several biotechs and you co-founded one.
You’re running it as, as the chief exec, uh, officer. Um, and you’re also mentoring along the way, several other founders, biotech founders, life science founders. What, what is your key advice when you talk to founding teams starting life science companies?
Ashoka Madduri: I think, uh, the key advice is, uh, uh, I think of course we are in a very highly technical industry, right?
Science needs to be there for sure. I think, uh, more than science, right? I think, uh, building right team, right team is really important. Uh, I think, uh, Really, you know, last, first three or four people who are, you are really hiring, nurturing them, empowering them, and they’re the ones setting tone for your company’s growth, actually.
So I believe in really building team now, along with the, having a strong science foundation. So I think that’s where, uh, I, I, I put a lot of emphasis actually, you know, and this advice I’ll give to any entrepreneurs out there. Planning to build their company from scratch. Look for that, um, right. People actually who shares the value and to nurture the people, uh, that they work with.
Uh, that, that’s going to set the tone for the, uh, for the development of the company. So, so can you share,
Naji Gehchan: uh, with us a little bit more like those leadership skills? And how do you look at this, uh, in a founding team? Is it complimentary? Is it specific leadership skills you believe foundationally they should have?
I’d love to get your thoughts because specifically on this team, as you said, like this is the biggest piece. There’s science and team. Uh, how, how do you look through this and what are the skills and capabilities you
Ashoka Madduri: look for? I think, uh, uh, plus for sure, you know, Any, any, any team you’re building initial, right.
It’s always good to have complimentary skills. I think that is a, uh, uh, that is a given, uh, you know, uh, the, besides having complimentary skills, right. You know, I think, uh, people need to understand the vision, uh, vision of the company in, uh, in two ways. I see. One is really from technical point of view where we are.
Where we want to go in few years. And second thing is, uh, what kind of team we would like to build. So that’s where I really focus emphasis on actually whenever we are hiring, uh, new employees want to make sure that they share the same vision. For the technical side as well as for non-technical side, how to really build the teams and the company as a, uh, as a, as a, uh, as a, uh, you know, in, in small institute Right.
You know, ourself to nurture each other. So, so I think, uh, the important focus is really what values they share and, uh, uh, and, uh, whether they, they, they, they share the common vision with us to really build these teams, uh, uh, to take this.
Naji Gehchan: I love it. You mentioned a couple of times and you touched it on culture that this team is trying to build.
So there is the values, shared values, a shared purpose, uh, as, as you’re building this, especially when you’re a small team. Um, and then there is what you’re trying to build as a culture. And you said the first hires are key. Can I double click on this and ask you, what are you trying to build as a culture?
For example, if you take your, your venture now as a ceo,
Ashoka Madduri: I think, uh, culture is the key, right? Know, uh, na you know, the couple of reasons for this, right? Uh, you know, you attracting talent in this competent environment is not easy. Uh, you know, there’s plenty of options for, uh, People who are just coming out of school, uh, you know, they can choose to work in different companies, uh, in our at any time.
So keeping the talent in in-house or, that is very key actually. What it starts from is culture. It’s having the really culture actually, and the, uh, trust teacher there. And you empower each other and really having a, that, uh, caring affection love. I think that is very, very important at this stage actually.
I think, uh, money component is there. Some people really get motivated by money, but I think a lot of times I’ve seen is actually having that culture, care and empowerment and love, I think, uh, keeps the people together for longer time. I think that’s, that’s what, uh, for me, culture means. Actually. I think people who share these values and believe this is.
Way to go forward. That’s, I think, for me, the culture actually. I think, uh, this starts from first few people actually that you are in, in our company that is, I believe this is like, uh, uh, what’s your cycle? If you have three people and the share same values and you keep moving actually with the, with the team you build going forward.
So,
Naji Gehchan: So this, this is, this is very powerful and obviously I’m, I’m biased. I’d love to know how you do it in a, you know, in a small team to show this. Because culture, you can, you can say, I want this, but obviously it’s the perception of what’s going day by day that is making it lived or not. So I, I’m intrigued, especially in a space where, You’re fundraising.
It’s tough. Science is tough, and it humbles us every day in drug development and discovery. You’re talking with VCs constantly, and then you’re coming with like, I have science and I have a team, and I have love and passion. I would love to know how you’re.
Ashoka Madduri: So I think, uh, there’s no magic bullet. Uh, na you know, I think everyone knows, you know, fundraising is hard, uh, and also, uh, being a c for a startup company, right?
It, it is also highly risky job. It’s not fun too. You know, there is a lot of things can go wrong. We are, we’re trying to get the data that required to raise the funding. You may not even get it actually. So I think, uh, the one way I’m keeping, uh, all the things together, uh, I’m also learning from each other, right?
Not only me actually also looking to my early employees point of view, what they see. What the issues we’re facing actually. So learn from each other actually, and also at the same time, right. Understand being a good listener, actually. So I think a lot of, uh, uh, times I see in, uh, early CEOs, right? You know, they do have some kind of idea how to run the company, but I think they’ve, uh, failed to listen to the.
The early stage employees actually who are key instrument of the company. I think listening, I think this is very, very important actually. That really solves majority of the issues, uh, that early stage companies are facing. So that’s something I cultivated. Uh, na or listen to your employees and, uh, and uh, and see what they’re saying, uh, and act according to that.
That, that going to solve really a lot of issues. So I think that’s something, uh, you know, like cultivated in our company. And also second thing is, uh, having that bigger vision, actually, yes, you do have upside downs. Maybe things won’t work out the way you want. Uh, maybe even raising capital takes more than time required data you are looking for.
It may not get actually, but I think, uh, having that bigger vision, right, that belongingness like, okay, we are here for each. We can support each other, we can get through this. Actually having that kind of mindset, you can, you know, that can sustain you for a longer time. So certainly, and
Naji Gehchan: you mentioned a key, a key point, which is belonging.
Uh, and, and I think focusing on this can solve a lot of issues on retention, feeling part of something bigger as you already shared, be before. Uh, if, if I ask you a question more, Technical practically. Now, you’ve, you’ve been helping so many biotechs and you’ve been on the edge of new technology. I’d love to get your thoughts on how’s the biotech environment in 2023, since we’re the first couple of months of the year, and what’s your take on it moving forward for this year and
Ashoka Madduri: next one?
I think a, for sure, right. You know, public markets, as you can see, uh, uh, is, is brutal right? Environment. So I think. Just because there have been plenty of money already being raised in Covid time. That disruption happened during Covid, so so. So basically a covid taught us so many things, right? You know, especially biotech, a pharma industry, even though as much as they allow, it’s still a conservative industry compared to other, other, other, uh, industries.
We have a lot of regulatory environment here. We need to follow certain rules and regulations, you know, to really keep this industry moving. So I think, uh, uh, coming, but again, I’m really optimistic actually. So I think it’s kind of, uh, I believe in, uh, Uh, blessings, uh, uh, in disguise. Disguise, sorry. Uh, disguise in blessings is, uh, sorry.
Nazi. Uh, can, can I pause here? You, if you don’t mind. Can I take that question again?
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. Do you, do you want me to say it again?
No, no, no worries. Drink
Ashoka Madduri: water. Yeah, maybe I can start the question maybe again. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Sure.
I can, I, I know the question actually, so,
Naji Gehchan: okay. So gimme just two seconds for us to be able to edit it. Yeah. So we Pause two seconds and then you can start again. Okay.
Ashoka Madduri: Yeah.
Got it. So I think, uh, that’s a great question. Uh, NAZA, you know, Covid, uh, really disrupted biotech industry a lot. Uh, I think, uh, in 2023, uh, we, we is still seen a lot of headwinds in, uh, in, especially in public markets and also some in, uh, private markets. But I’m really optimistic in, uh, uh, uh, the lessons we learned from, uh, COVID, right?
How to be flexible. You know, how to be resilience. I think that, that these are the lessons actually very, very important for biotech industry. How, how we can be more flexible and resilient in this changing environments. So I think the hybrid culture is really going to stay for a longer time. Uh, there is something, uh, you know, industry.
Never thought is is going to happen. I think this two years kind of, uh, accelerated almost like 10 years of a life, uh, lifetime in biotech industry. So, uh, I think keeping this in mind, right, hybrid environment and also technological, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, evolutions that happening, especially in gene cell therapy and also mRNA, uh, the industry is, uh, good to do, uh, more things, uh, that, that.
Kind of can’t imagine actually 10 years ago. So that I’m, I’m really optimistic for this industry and, uh, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m going to play one of the small company c e o key role going forward actually to really bring a transformation therapies actually that much more safe and focus for patients. That’s
awesome.
Naji Gehchan: And we, we, we need so much of all the innovation we are all working on, uh, patients actually cannot and should not wait. So it’s, um, thanks for all you’re doing with, with your new adventure and also advising all the other biotechs too. I would give you now a word and I would love your reaction to it. I’m, I’m sure you were ready for this section.
Sure. So the first, the first one is leader.
Ashoka Madduri: So for me, leadership is, uh, all empowerment. You know, uh, expand on that, you know, especially after Covid, people gone through so many transformations, being hybrid, uh, I think empowering, empowering is, uh, is kind of undervalued actually. So I think I really touch base on, uh, you know, any leaders out. Empower people around you.
I think even the small change, the small, uh, you know, feedback, the positive feedback that you, that you give to the person, that changes the life, that per of the person tremendously. So I think for me, empowerment, leadership is always empowerment. What about health equity equally? Health for all. That, that is, that’s what comes to my.
But, uh, is it really truly happening, uh, in our, the country we are living in? It’s still far away. Hopefully as a leaders, we collectively find the answers to make that, uh, e equal to all happen soon. The third one is
Naji Gehchan: fireside shots.
Ashoka Madduri: It’s scary. So, uh, but I think, uh, It’s scary. Uh, but if, if you, if you take that, uh, you know, moment to think about it, what kind of impact it can have, the organically sharing your story and genuine to and truthful to who you are, I think, uh, that can change your, and also that can change a lot of people life actually.
And I have a, in a positive way, having greater impact. Uh, it, I totally support, uh, five set charts in. There is something, you know, you won’t really see that you see normally, uh, you know, in other stories. So, uh, highly, highly recommend that you know any, any entrepreneurs, leaders, how do themself and also ask other people to do this.
Actually, that’s the only way we can, we can build a strong community.
Naji Gehchan: Just as a background for our listeners, the fireside chats are actually moments where we share our stories and we, we, I, I had the opportunity to be in the same program as, as you Ashoka, this, it’s really those moments where you have the opportunity to share your story and tell it.
Um, and it’s definitely. Powerful moments as you did today, sharing your personal story with, uh, with all of us here. Uh, the last one is spread love in organizations.
Ashoka Madduri: So it’s a, it’s, it’s a continuous, right? It’s a journey. So I think, uh, as someone said, life is a journey, not as a, not a destination. I totally believe save.
Same is true for Lao. Love is a journey, not a Destin. The reason I say this is, you know, you can even in a family’s right? You know, he found Lao, he got married. That is not enough. Same thing I see in industry and communities. Once he found Lao, you need to not share, uh, Look at the, look at the issues that you are saw, uh, going to stop, solve and facing every day and find solutions.
Actually, I think, uh, I feel this law is a journey. It’s not a destination and we should keep, uh, uh, cultivating this culture throughout our career, not only industry, also in family, and also in communities we are living in. And we’re
Naji Gehchan: trying here to do our part, bringing incredible leaders like you who believe in this.
And hopefully we can keep growing this, uh, this journey together to, to lead from a place of love for us to be able to execute and deliver for the patients we serve. And all the stakeholders. Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?
Ashoka Madduri: Empower people. Uh, empowering people is, uh, one of the thing, uh, I take, take very close to, uh, my heart, uh, uh, na, you know, uh, and what you are doing, uh, through your podcast, uh, you know, spreading Lao, I, uh, I love the theme. And this is, this something, uh, hope many people, many leaders will spread the law and empower, empower their people and, uh, empower their people.
Uh, this is, uh, this is, uh, you know, this is the way we can build a stronger communities and we can have a greater impact, uh, on society as a whole. So. Well, thank you so
Naji Gehchan: much, uh, Ashoka for being with me today and for this incredible chat.
Ashoka Madduri: Thank you, Naji. what you’re doing is great, and, hopefully, you continue doing this and spread love across the world.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to spread love and organization’s podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this episode from our new series focused on us as leaders. I’m thrilled to be joined by an exceptional MIT professor of Management, Operations Research, Statistics and Operations Management: Georgia Perakis.
Georgia teaches courses and performs research in analytics, optimization, machine learning with applications in pricing, revenue management, supply chains, transportation, energy, and healthcare among others. I had the privilege to be her student the past semester, and not only I learned about data, models, and decisions, but I learned about leadership from her as much!
In her research, Georgia investigates the theory and practice of analytics and its role in operations problems.. She has received numerous Awards and have several prestigious publications. Currently, and Georgia serves as the codirector of the Operations Research Center and on the council for the College of Computing, and faculty director of the Executive MBA (EMBA) program at MIT Sloan. I’ll never be able to share all her incredible work and impact so I’ll stop here and listen to her!
Georgia Perakis: Hello, Naji. Thank you very much for inviting me. Nice to see you.
Naji Gehchan: Georgia, before going into the world of data and leadership, I really would love to learn more about your personal story and journey to becoming the great MIT professor you are today.
Georgia Perakis: So, uh, I was actually born in the south of Greece in the island of Crete. I came from a, what I would call a very academic family that starts from my father who, uh, arrived before the second world war started. He was in Switzerland, uh, doing his master’s degree in civil engineering and studying airplanes, unfortunately, because of the war he had to come back and he had to serve the army for five.
So the dream of he used to pursue graduate studies did not work out. Uh, but as a result, uh, both my brother and I, uh, he basically instilled in us the passion to basically study and be academics. Um, and so both my brother and I are professors in the us in different universities, myself in, uh, what I would call applied math in business or analytics and my brother and sister.
So I, I would say in short, I’m trying to say that this is all because of how our father inspired.
Naji Gehchan: Oh, wow. That’s a, that, that’s awesome. Uh, and I’ve, I’ve seen you, you’re talking about how you get into MIT, academics, uh, and well, all the amazing work you’ve done so far and still doing there. Uh, and, and before going, you know, more into the data, I I’ve seen you leading your team, the PhD team that you have during the, you know, the sessions that we had, uh, and the course, uh, and it was really amazing to watch you like truly how you led the team, how you value them, how you brought them in front of the class.
Uh, Yeah, for me, I really felt it’s practically a real team. It’s one, it’s a one team that has, that is doing this. So can you share a little bit your leadership beliefs and your leadership journey and how you ended up in academia and building really strong teams with your.
Georgia Perakis: So how I ended up in academia, I already mentioned, and I came to the U S from graduate school.
I felt that I was just going to finish my master’s and PhD and go back. But of course, many double digit, won’t say how many I am still here. Am I teasing and incredible? Uh, it’s, I call it like a huge candy store with grape candy that it’s hard to choose from. But what I think is extremely unique are the students that we have at MIT, whether there are people like you, the MBA students, or whether there are PhD students, like the ones in the operations research center, which, where you’re doing.
So I consider myself very, very lucky to be able to interact and basically be among people like them and you guys. And so basically my goal is what I would call enabling these people to bring back back, to bring out the best of them. And that’s kind of my core belief actually in everything I do. Bring in enable the best in other people.
And so I know I have the luck to be among incredibly talented people. So bringing out their skills and enabling them is what I believe in doing in everything.
Naji Gehchan: Well, this is such a powerful, uh, such. Powerful word, you know, for a leader is right. Enabling others and making sure the environment and tries to return a lot about what is the environment that you’re creating for us to enable, uh, enable people to be at their best.
Uh, you know, um, I’ve seen all the work and the word I’ve seen all the work you have done with your team, and it’s also part of leadership and how you pivoted, I think with your team. The round. COVID try. I know many don’t want to talk about it, but it’s important where it’s still somehow in a, uh, can you share a little bit with us?
How, how you took your team into modeling all that was happening in COVID and ultimately the impact that you are having on, on policies, uh, now with the data and model, I think it’s a beautiful example on how you can. Take data and do something actionable about it. And it’s a, it’s a great. Leadership lesson, I’m sure you had, as, as things were, uh, on feeding during the pandemic.
Georgia Perakis: So I would say basically that, uh, when the pandemic started and we all had to go very quickly virtually, uh, the first thing that I wanted to do is to create community actually with my. And we have been working on many different types of algorithms. We sub groups of my students. So I thought in order for them to not feel isolated and so forth, it would be great to create community and see how we can do something.
Good. Everything we were doing that where, for example, for the retail space or somewhere for basically other healthcare applications, and that’s how this journey actually got started. Um, we, we tried to basically find data sources and. And actually there was an MBA student at the time, at the time, uh, that also was involved in the team because he talk to me and she told me, Hey, uh, I would like to be involved as well.
Um, so that’s how the discussions got started. The next step it happened. And since we were doing this, uh, and we then got contacted by MIT quest for intelligence, which is sort of the air over my. That sits, you know, it brings together many parts of MIT as it comes to AI. And they notice that we were starting to do this work.
And so they said, well, maybe you can help us because we are trying to understand how cases, how deaths and so forth will evolve. And that will also help us to reopen them. So now, you know, what was just about community building and about let’s make our work mean something, it became something that was sort of more tangible.
It was like, okay, let’s see how we can have on it. Understand how the evolution of cases, the evolution of deaths in different states and counties in the United States and in particular, Massachusetts. Because if we understand what’s happening in Massachusetts and my ticket now make decisions about different measures they could impose in order to make things work.
Because as you know, MIT believed that we in-person experience is something very important. Everybody knew that this is not going to be perfect, but it’s better than just being all virtual with no in-person component. And so we thought it would be great to basically help them do. It was a lot of hard work.
And again, I give all the credit to the students because they work tirelessly and very excited. They had ownership of this. This was their baby, and I was lucky to be part of that conversation. And then we decided, well, we actually maybe can help a little bit more at the national level. So, um, Contacted Fox from the CB CBC.
And then we started actually submitting our models. We are still doing this every week, uh, for predicting for the next week, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks ahead, how cases and deaths are going to evolve. So that’s kind of the summary of a long journey.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, well, wow. And again, like it’s, uh, you, you always told us data is better than nothing.
And then the ultimate objective is making decisions, right? So it’s, it’s really impressive. And w before going to data machine learning, I want to ask a question on this, but before that, I really want to summarize, you said things that are super powerful. You, you started by, uh, creating a company. Doing something for good.
Right? And then you go into ownership, empowerment of your team, enabling them to be at their best. And honestly, what a humble leader you are, because again, you say it’s your team, but I’m sure without her leadership, you wouldn’t have, they wouldn’t have achieved what you guys have achieved. So, yeah. Thanks for giving all those dealerships tips for all of us.
Georgia Perakis: I think of my team, some amazing students. I honestly believe that at all. And I consider myself very lucky to be part of that environment. Uh, and so I believe success of people is by understanding the abilities of others and helping bringing them out. So, and then we all look good. They do. And actually, so do I find it a bit selfish?
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. I so agree with this. Um, well you mentioned words, right? Data models, machine learning, it’s such trendy words, right? So I would love to get your take on this. I had the opportunity to hear you about it for many hours that I enjoyed. I would love to hear your take on those and the most important advice you would give us for leaders who either are talking about it or dealing with it and our organizations.
What are your, what is your take about all
Georgia Perakis: those strategies? Right. So, first of all, understanding what data we each have in our organization, how we can use them in a good way, how we can use them to have a competitive edge. Or realizing the limitations of our data, maybe what we do not have and we could have, uh, and how, what we don’t have, we can actually collect and use it to do better things.
That’s sort of the first step, basically, uh, understand what is your data environment? Where can you get it and what can you not get? But you could potentially. The second, also an important thing is to understand what you could do with it, potentially what are some areas where analytics and in analytics, I put machine learning, AI optimization, how analytics could actually improve the way you are doing things in your organization and recognizing those opportunities.
And recognizing areas that my lead picks can have a first order effect as I call it. It’s not just a small parentheses. Uh, and so, you know, recognizing what are these areas also extremely important. And then flowed that I wanted to do with the class that I was teaching is to make sure. And I’m not sure if I should use this word, but, and maybe I have not used it, but that nobody can, uh, talk another person.
Nobody can be as you.
And that, you know, and so I’m proud whenever I hear, uh, people, uh, who took my class, that they go in meetings and they recognize, and they ask questions and, you know, people, don’t not trying to pull a fast one over them and that’s extremely satisfying.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. Yeah, you definitely, you definitely helped us see this for your, you know, for those of us who deal with data constantly and those who don’t, but it’s important to kind of think of it that
Georgia Perakis: way.
And I would say that this past month I was contacted by two former students of mine that graduated one maybe three years ago. And the other two years ago, Sort of talking to me about problems that they had in their organizations and recognizing how some particular tools that I taught them was useful.
And so that happened to me twice in the last month. And, um, even asking me to, to remind them of what software had I recommended back then and so forth, and that’s extremely satisfying, then I feel okay. Yeah, I did something.
Naji Gehchan: Oh yeah, no, definitely. And there are many who don’t come back to what are actually doing it.
So that is for sure. What is the last question on this? Uh, since you’ve worked a lot in academia, but you obviously work it out with companies, right? You mentioned retail and healthcare and many others. Uh, what is the most challenging? When we touch those, you know, machine learning, AI, all those concepts and organization, what is for you?
The most challenging piece a leader should start with if we’re launching this type of projects or transformation.
Georgia Perakis: So I would say first understanding what are the problems that the organization have? What are the right questions and what are the limitations also that they have? What are they capable of?
And then they towel. So because, you know, everybody talks about big data and I say a far more important thing is what happens when I have little data. When I have missing data, actually I would say this is hard there. I’ll talk about big data. Let’s talk first about little data missing data. So I would say those three and in that order first.
Okay. What is that? I problem for me, is it. But maybe by using ethics, I could make a difference for somebody.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. I will always take this. As you mentioned that many times, right? What is the problem you’re trying to fix? And this is usually the toughest question to ask because yeah, we can have data, but you know, what are we trying to fix and which type of data we need, and then try to deal with this.
So I, I would, uh, I would be moving into giving you one word and I would love to have your reaction to this word, uh, in a sentence or more, right? So the first one is leadership.
Georgia Perakis: So, um, my action is empowering others actions.
Oh, my God. The extremely important having diversity in an organization is what brings power to the organization.
Naji Gehchan: Okay. Can you share it a little bit more because I know you’re passionate about it, then you’ve done a lot of work within MIT on DNI. Can you share with us a little bit more, you know, from beta to auctions and thoughts on,
Georgia Perakis: right.
So a couple of things, the first is that by recognizing that if you bring a lot of different voices, You know, my analogy to data would be if you have different and diverse sources of data and even methods that you can buy, you will actually have a much more powerful outcome. In fact, what we did in our algorithms to predict was exactly the principle of diversity.
We basically developed a lot of different and diverse. Algorithms that capture different aspects. If you like, we brought different voices and by ensembling them together, we created a much more powerful. So it’s almost like taking the model of diversity and putting it in an algorithmic setting. And that’s one example, but I believe it in everything I do and I see it in my group and I see that MIT and I know now.
And in general, MIT takes this very seriously. We can do much better, but you know, recognizing this is the first step to success, I would say.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, no, I love it. Well, recognizing the problem right
Georgia Perakis: then,
Naji Gehchan: uh, I have to ask this many of the listeners won’t know where it is.
Georgia Perakis: Data models and decisions, how you go from data to recommending good decisions that will bring value and value. Doesn’t have to be just revenue profit. It can be improving the world in some way.
Naji Gehchan: Awesome. This is one of the best courses in this ever programs.
Uh, the last one I’d love your reaction on is spread love and organizations.
Georgia Perakis: So do you need one word or Western, whatever
Naji Gehchan: you want,
Georgia Perakis: you don’t spend? I would say basically feeling compassionate and trying to understand. Other people in your organization so that you can embrace others and you can embrace the diversity or the lack thereof of an organization, and then bring diversity to the organization.
And by sort of having that empathy and compassion with others and spreading it is what would make the organization successful. So, as I said before, in a way it’s kind of understanding and enabling and embracing others.
Naji Gehchan: Awesome. Uh, Georgia, any final word of wisdom for all the leaders around the world.
Georgia Perakis: So I would say one thing, which is extremely important to me and I will put it in mathematical terms, what I call the law of large numbers and what I mean by that is persist and look at the long-term goal.
That’s what I learned in my career. And, you know, things didn’t just come on my plate as I went along in my career, but, you know, uh, I try to focus on the end. I’d rather have a look at the failures that I had right in front of me. And I call that the law of large numbers that if you persist and look at the future, long-term it will work out eventually
Naji Gehchan: the “Love of large number.” I love it. Thank you so much for your time today.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to spread love and organization’s podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this podcast joined today by Paul Hartung, a longtime life sciences and technology executive with a proven track record in launching successful startup businesses and leading Fortune 500 organizations. Paul currently serves on several Board of Directors including Leuko and Verisense, he mentors at MIT VMS, MassBio MassCONNECT, and The Capital Network, and serves as a judge for MassChallenge. He served as President & CEO through successful Phase II of Cognoptix, which has developed an innovative eye scan for early detection of Alzheimer’s disease. Paul also founded Sonivance, and has held senior management roles at 3Com, Summit (LASIK), Trumpf, Laser Fare and GE. Paul graduated with honors from MIT with an MS Degree in Mechanical Engineering. He is an active speaker, author and inventor on a number of patents.
Paul – it is an honor to have you with me today!
Paul Hartung: Well, thank you very much, Naji. I really appreciate the invitation.
Naji Gehchan: Can you first share with us, uh, Paul, your personal story from mechanical engineering to life sciences and impressive entrepreneurial track record?
What’s, what’s behind this inspiring journey you have? Yeah.
Paul Hartung: You know, I, I guess I like to categorize myself as an engineer who loves to make things right. So early on, uh, my research at m i t was at, uh, lab for Manufacturing and Product. . So I got involved in all kinds of manufacturing processes and advanced materials.
And actually some of my work is being taught today at M I T and my research. Um, so I started in the aerospace industry, which is a manufacturing industry. And then I looked around and I, I realized that, um, you know, manufacturing was really changing and I wanted to do something. So one of the things that caught my interest was lasers, and there’s lots of different things you can do with lasers and, and photonics.
I I started looking at, um, industrial lasers, high power lasers, and got a whole taste of, um, the whole process of, uh, mergers and acquisitions of companies. . I, and I had a crash course, uh, in that I, I went from GE to a, a small company. . Um, then another small company that was acquired by a bigger company and merged with another company all in a period of years.
And that’s what ended up being described on my resume as as Trump. But it started as a spin out of combustion engineering, which is an energy company. Um, , but then I, I got exposed to, uh, medical technology first using lasers as a manufacturing tool cuz you know, they’re used to make pacemakers and things like that.
Um, there’s things you can do with lasers that you can’t do with other manufacturing processes. So, um, I went to, I, I spoke at an M D D I conference, which is on medical devices, uh, using lasers and manufacturing tool and. Lo and behold, uh, after a little bit of a journey, you know, through these mergers and acquisitions, I ended up getting a call from a friend of mine who was working for a medical laser company and a startup that was called Summit Technologies.
And, uh, that was a company that developed lasik. So, um, I, you know, made this huge pivot in my. To, to do that. Um, and at the same time as, as developing skills sort of across business, rather than doing an m mba, again, I haven’t, you know, a couple of engineering degrees. Um, I decided to learn different aspects of the business.
So I actually applied to a manufacturing job and this, this startup was sort of expanding. They, uh, wanted to do manufacturing in, uh, in, uh, Ireland. and take advantage of some, some tax breaks and what have you. So, um, I came in to kind of run manufacturing locally and we didn’t have f d a approval yet, so had to go through the whole process of, of, um, getting f d a approval and learned that firsthand and.
You know, I, uh, then got distracted. Uh, I, I ended up doing that for several years and I got a call, um, you know, sort of the whole internet of things industry was starting to blossom. And I got a call from a company called Threecom Corporation, which I hadn’t even heard of at the time, but at, at that time, its bread and butter was connecting everybody to the internet.
I mean, there were basically devices that you plugged in to every laptop to connect to the internet, but the company grew, grew through acquisitions. So every month the company was acquiring another company. So now what our smartphones kind of evolved from something that was called the Palm Pilot. I dunno if anybody remembers that, but, um, these, these, uh, PDA.
We’re, uh, kind of a precursor to smartphones and, uh, Threecom bought the company that makes those. Um, I, I learned, oh, I’m a mechanical engineer by training. I learned all about, uh, kind of software intensive businesses and uh, uh, electrical hardware done at very low cost. And, um, I learned partnering as well, uh, the global supply chain because we had three internal factories.
um, like four subcontractors that we worked with on the outside. And I ended up with this global operations role, figuring out how to make new product, how to design new products anywhere and make them anywhere. So in concept, um, And then I got back into, um, startups. Uh, I, I joined a company called Win Foria that was acquired by Motorola and developed, uh, another mobile technology called Push to Talk.
Um, so after that little diversion into Into Tech, okay, I decided I was gonna do a medical device. And I, um, ended up being in the right place at the right time. I, um, started researching how to kind of raise funny first for startups and went to a little conference put on by a law firm. And, uh, I enjoyed one of the speakers, spoke to him in the hallway and he said, oh, you need to meet.
Scientists who are putting together this, that made this great discovery of amyloid in the eye that, uh, kind of parallels what goes on in the brain with Alzheimer’s disease and, um, you know, your photonics background, you know, working with the eye with lasik. Um, my business background, I ended up at my kind of first, uh, founding c e O job.
and, uh, that was initially named Neurotics, uh, changed its name to Cog Optics at one point due to a trademark thing with another company. But, um, we, it was quite a journey. Um, you know, I, coming from a very successful tech startup that had raised a lot of money from venture capital, , uh, I thought I could, you know, raise money quickly through vent venture capital instead.
Um, I found myself being introduced to Angel financing and cuz it was Alzheimer’s disease was too scary. It, the market at that time was, was very tough. So, by accident I syndicated the first, uh, angel deal in the Northeast because I couldn’t make enough money through, you know, Uh, angel Group. I put four together and, you know, did of financing.
So, you know, I ultimately raised 3 million in angel financing and, um, did the development that was needed to sort of get ready for, uh, venture financing. And, um, what happened? The economy crashed. This was back in 2008. and luckily I was, I was kind of searching internationally for, uh, venture venture funding.
I had a lead investor in, uh, Europe. Uh, and we closed a, a financing in September when the whole US economy had shut down that year already no one was getting financing. So, um, that, uh, helped hurdle me forward and. . Yeah. You know, that that was a wonderful journey for me, uh, that that company, um, you know, we were one of the four leading inventions by, you know, the Alzheimer’s Association.
I do an international conference in, in, uh, 2015. And, uh, really positioned for success. Uh, a real issue was no company had a treatment. And that ended up being a real kinda barrier to, uh, you know,
Naji Gehchan: Well, well, thank you so much for sharing. This is really inspiring and incredible journey, and you shared so many times the word learning, uh, and it seems every, everything job you took was based out of curiosity learning.
So I’d love to double click on this a as you were taking those job, and obviously it’s, it’s risky, right? Like you’re jumping, I imagine what you felt. Also kind of constantly move to jobs, uh, you know, new jobs that I don’t know about. Right. What, what was your backbone, is there like a backbone capability or something within your core or leadership signature that you always kind of relied on or something else that made you, you know, go learn fast
Paul Hartung: and?
Well, something that’s great about m i t is, uh, they teach you problem solving skills. So that’s one thing at the core, you know, uh, kind of being able to kind of step back, be humble, learn as much as you can about a situation before jumping to conclusions and, and, and jumping to the solution space. So, um, again, problem solving is a process.
And I also look at, um, product development, uh, as a process that, uh, translates across industries actually. Um, you know, a lot of people and, you know, a lot of people are very successful kind of choosing, uh, sort of an industry segment and, and role even sometimes, so you know that they’re very effective.
and going very deep. Well, I’ve found that, um, you know, I, I talked about, um, working for a company like ge. Well, guess what? They, they did some military business. It was, uh, it was, um, uh, military helicopter engines was one of the things that they made, you know, where, where we were, which is a regulated industry.
Right? Um, and there were some. Grants associated with the kind of work I was doing, you know, writing and, and supporting grants is kind of a general skill. Um, I, I found that, um, the process of, of, uh, team building. Um, one thing I’m, I’m passionate about is, is developing cross-functional teams and starting having an interest in manufacturing.
there’s this traditional wall between engineering and manufacturing where they used to say that, uh, you know, ideas would be kind of thrown over the wall and manufacturing people would have to figure out how to make it. Well. Over time, we’ve all learned that it’s most effective to, um, bring pe, bring all the stakeholders in early, you know, in, in the process, and, uh, create these cross-functional teams that are very effecti.
So, um, I’ve done that on the level of job functions and more recently done it on the level of complex things like drug delivery, where, you know, you need to have people who understand the pharma side and you also have people who understand the sort of mechanics of, of, of, of drug delivery or, or understand advanced materials.
and, um, you know, it, it, it’s interesting getting a diverse team together in, in the same room and trying to figure out how to move forward to a common cause. Love, and that’s, I love they developed over time. And I, I
Naji Gehchan: wanna go there because I love what you said about the wall, you know, between engineering and or tech and then manufacturing.
And I’m sure you’ve seen another wall once. This is, you know, produced like a wall for marketing and sales to figure out how to sell it, right?
Paul Hartung: Yeah, absolutely.
Naji Gehchan: So as you are building and working those with diverse teams, uh, as the leader of all those teams, what, what, what do you practically do? You said like, put people together in a room.
Uh, in today’s world, it’s. Possible physically. Sometimes our teams are remote, I’m sure. And,
Paul Hartung: and you were the same. So I can be done remotely.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. So I’d love to learn more from you, like what are the tips, how have you done it to build really this cross-functional team that is going towards a purpose, as you said, a common purpose, uh, to deliver on the mission they had.
So how, how have you, how have you done this?
Paul Hartung: Well, I think, um, part of it is effective meeting management. Um, everybody. Gets quickly sick of too many meetings. But if you have, uh, a structure where there’s a periodic team meeting, say weekly, and um, you know, you have to have a manageable number of people.
And that partly has to do with, with, uh, how big the project is and the structure of the team. But if you have, you know, 10 people in the room, let’s. , you give everybody the opportunity to give a quick update from their perspective. And um, also they may have an ask. And, um, at first when you know people are, um, hearing something that’s very foreign to them, they think it, maybe it’s a waste of time or they don’t understand it or whatever, but it starts to sink in.
They start to get an appreci. of all of the pieces of the puzzle. You don’t have to become an expert in everything. But knowing a little bit about, and, and understanding what impacts your fellow team members, um, it’s those intersections, you know, that are, are, that are most important and someone from a completely different discipline may have a great idea or, or great solution for, for one of their team.
So that’s, that’s part of it. I think another part of it is just having really good project management. You know, I’m, I’m a believer in, uh, project plans and, and Gant charts and those sorts of things. And, you know, trying to work to a schedule and if there are delays, figuring out what, you know, what things can be done independently, what what can be done to mitigate, um, um, issues with the.
Um, but yeah, I mean, usually with a complex project, um, the, the solutions may come from anywhere. You know, they, there’s different facets to the project and to work around a delay in one area, um, someone may need to step up in another area.
Naji Gehchan: It’s reminding me of what we also at m i t learned, right? Like all this dynamic work design and, and how to do this.
Have you seen a difference between doing it in startups? So you’ve done like all. all scales of companies, right? Like upside up to, to large corporations. Yeah. Is there any difference, uh, doing it through those? And I, I’d love to hear the cultural perspective as you’re managing those teams and building those effective high
Paul Hartung: performing teams.
Sure, sure. Well, you know, I’ve, I’ve seen, um, speed come from. Almost like, you know, volume. You know, I have a, have, have a big team. Uh, one example was Win Foria. We, we were actually a, a startup, but a very well funded, you know, VC back startup. We had 120 software engineers in three countries. And, you know, having Boston effectively, Madrid and Bangalore, India, we could have software development 24 by.
and, you know, because people are in different time zones and the challenge was kind of knitting together all this work, but, um, you know, in, in contrast and, and that that’s more difficult than it may seem. Right. You know, knitting together work of software engineers, but they’re tools. , right? They’re, um, these, uh, configuration management systems that, uh, knit the software together.
And, um, you can, you know, you set up the proper processes and, um, you can be effective and have good leadership. You know, that’s communicating a across the teams. But, um, I would say that, uh, startups these days and, and. Tics, the example I gave you before the Alzheimer’s thing, that was a complex project cuz we were doing, um, we weren’t doing a treatment, we were doing, uh, a diagnostic, but it did involve a reagent with, which was formulated into an ophthalmic ointment.
So it’s like a, like a drug development project. Not for treatment, for diagnosis in parallel with a complex optical system. You know, the system had, um, six ax axis of motion and um, you know, did a, a, um, measurement in milliseconds and, you know, it was, uh, a fluorescent spectroscopy measurement. It was, you know, quite sophisticated.
We had, um, five people in the. I mean, you know, our, our team was tiny. And how did we do it? We did it through, uh, partnering and we chose really good partners and, and, and the top-notch team. But a lot of it was, um, in a way, you know, project management, it was realizing that we weren’t gonna be the manufacturer, so we had to have a manufacturer that had all the certifications.
Proven track record of doing this kind of complex product on the device side, and we had to separate, right then we had to find, um, someone to make the a p i. We ended up, um, uh, moving that manufacturing to India for cost. , we ended up, um, having a complex formulation. We had searched the world, you know, found a partner in the United States that was one of the only ones that could handle the formulation of our product.
We even, uh, created patents for some of the formulation steps because it was so complicated. And I won’t get into the details, but, you know, um, but we wouldn’t have been able to do it ourselves. We wouldn’t have been able to create our own bricks and mortar and, and, uh, do that. on the development side, it’s, it’s trickier, you know, um, there’s a range of possibilities you can hire, in some cases, one company to do your development for you to do your design work for you, right?
Um, I haven’t been so successful at that. You know, what I’ve done is, uh, tended to. , um, kind of break things into pieces and use a company that’s really good on software development. Use a company that’s really good on, um, you know, say mechanical design. Um, maybe another company that’s really good at, uh, electrical design.
And then, uh, kind of have them work together as, as a team, you know, and, and, and bring everybody.
So Paul, you are heavily
Naji Gehchan: involved in, um, helping ventures, helping startups, founders through the different Yeah. The different work you do. Uh, what, what is the number one device, uh, advice that you would give for founders of startups
Paul Hartung: and healthcare?
Um, number one, I would say,
one, make sure that you’re addressing an unmet need and that people at the end of the day will really care, you know, identify who, who will care, care enough to pay, care enough to utilize care enough. So that exploratory process. Um, and it, it, it, you know, took me some time to learn this. Um, But I’m seeing it more and more.
It’s been formalized in programs like icor, which you may have heard of that. Um, you know, to get an S B I R grant, you have a 40% better chance if you go through this ICOR program. And the principle is you have a great idea. Reach out to about a hundred stakeholders, potential stakeholders, and explore the idea and make sure you’re addressing so.
that’s really a pain point out there because, um, sometimes current treatments or, um, cur current methods aren’t optimal, but they’re kind of like good enough that, uh, having something that’s a little bit better doesn’t move. The bar doesn’t, you know, for one, it’s hard to raise money, but at the end of the day, you can go through all the work and.
you know, it, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s quite a journey. You know, you put blood, sweat, and tears into a, into a program and after several years find out, you know, you’re basically done, but there’s no real market for what you’re doing, or you can’t find a commercialization partner because there just isn’t a strategic fit.
So I’m a believer in working on those issues very. , you also have to make sure that, um, your science is really solid. So I think there are some spinouts that are premature that, um, really need to, um, make sure their, their, their science is very solid. That, um, uh, the way I look at it, data is your currency, right?
You, you, you can tell people that it’s gonna work, but really have to show them data that’s, um, that it’s gonna work because you have to have something that works, that, again, people will care about right’s. Those two pieces,
and too often that, that, that second one of, you know, well, people really care about it. It’s not an easy thing to get to. You care exactly. The, the entrepreneur, the founder, you know, feels passionately about it and maybe thinks everybody else is stupid because they don’t get it. They don’t. , but it’s really important to sort out.
Yeah. And, and you mentioned care
Naji Gehchan: about and willing to pay, like there’s this value, right? At the end of the day, value creation and capture that you need to figure out.
Paul Hartung: Right.
Naji Gehchan: Uh, Paul, I’ll give you now a word and I’d love your reaction to it.
Paul Hartung: So the first one is leadership.
Uh, leadership. Okay. It’s, it’s, um, to me it’s, it’s, it’s keeping a team motivated through the tough times. It’s always easy to, um, stand up and, um, give praise for alls all the successes. But the real challenge, particularly in, in, uh, in a startup. and even, you know, in companies, uh, that are working on, on, on programs that are difficult programs, it’s the hard times in figuring out the Plan Bs and, and, um, I’ve even been in situation where, um, my whole team went off salary for several months because we were kind of between financings and that takes more than just kind of the, the traditional.
Carrots that you hand out in, in, in business, it takes developing a, a passion as a team for what you’re
Naji Gehchan: doing. Can I double click on that and if you can tell us the story and how you develop this passion to make sure that people keep on coming.
Paul Hartung: Yeah. Well, um, I can expand on that particular story. Um, and that that was, um, it was a, a point in, in, uh, Cognos life actually.
I, I, I had mentioned that, um, we were trying to raise money, uh, when the economy collapsed. Well, just before the economy collapsed, I actually had a syndicate of investors ready to invest. And, you know, your board becomes part of. Expanded team of a company. Well, um, the particular group of investors sort of became, in my mind, toxic.
They weren’t working well together and one of the investors was sort of becoming very manipulative. And, um, we thought that we were ready to close a financing. And then at the last minute terms were. . So finally I had to make the tough decision based on the fact that, uh, I would need to live with these people.
You know, they’re not only, you know, giving us money, but you know, the, the next few years of the company, we’d be tied to these people. I, I realized that it wa it just wasn’t gonna work, and, uh, took a big, took a big gamble and tested loyalty of my earliest investors. They came back and did a, a small bridge to keep us going while I pivoted to find a different set of investors.
That’s when I went to international, you know, and, and, and found, uh, um, you know, an inter international lead investor. But, um, the team, uh, had a choice. You know, we, we either continue working. Effectively, we, you know, had to kind of mothball the company. Everyone wanted to keep going. Um, I had actually one, one person leave, but it was actually right before I closed the next financing.
And you know what? Everybody was made whole. Uh, you know, we ended up for that time that people took off. They, they all get. For that time in the end, once, once we, once we closed the financing. Um, so it was scary, but we just kind of put our heads down and, and, um, carried out our mission.
Naji Gehchan: Oh, and I’m sure it talks to the culture you created for people to keep on Yeah. Showing up and, and being here. Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Hartung: The second word is innovation. innovation. Yeah. One of those words that, uh, I love, but, you know, may, may be overused, uh, . Um, you know, I, I guess, um,
there are lots and lots of good ideas that merge every day. Right. Um, and unfortunately a lot of innovations never. Polite of day, you know, people may file a patent. I know that, uh, all of the major institutions have piles of patents that they, they can’t even license out. They, you know, they don’t know what to do with.
So, um, you know, it’s, it’s an issue of, of, um, finding ideas. that actually can make a difference, that can have an impact. Um, and that gets back to some of the things we were saying before, of, of really exploring the landscape, understanding, um, if it’s in a treatment space, understanding the kind of landscape of treatments that are available today.
Really understanding, you know, the, the unmet need, um, before putting a lot of. Effort into your particular in innovation? Um, again, building off something I said before, um, I think some of the more important innovations are, um, based on, um, kind of a combination of things. It’s like a convergence of technologies.
another, you know, overused one is ai, for instance, right? Um, a, you know, ai, ai, everything. But the, um, if you look at, um, you know, advances in materials, you look at, at advances in, uh, nanotech, you know, being able to get down to a, you know, much smaller scale, um, you look at. All of the discoveries around d n a and r n a and and uh, and gene editing and you know where that can possibly go.
Um, and you, you think about the problems of, you know, treating the right individual in the right location in their body that’s affected without creating toxic effects on the re on the rest of the body in an um, , you know, effectively say, monitoring their dosing. Uh, it takes a village, it takes, you know, kind of a combination of technologies.
So I’m a great believer in kind of innovation in these systems that, um, can solve the bigger problems.
What about board of directors? Board of director? , um, you know, board of directors. Uh, I’ve been on some, you know, very effective ones, um, to a certain extent. Uh, you know, that they’re for support and, um, and guidance and, and it kind of depends on the maturity of the, of the management team. Um, you know, sometimes it comes down to kind of advice.
There’s some formalities around, uh, you know, governance and responsibility, fiduciary responsibilities to, to, um, the shareholders and that sort of thing that are kind of the basics of, of, uh, business structure. Um, and, you know, being, being incorporated that, um, you know, you have to maintain. But I’m a believer in, in making sure that.
Management team, uh, feels supported that they have a structure in place for, um, being rewarded and incentivized, you know, and, um, things like stock options and, and things like, uh, uh, periodic review of, of, of, um, the overall, you know, cash compensation plan and making sure that there’s some sort of bonus structure in place.
and, um, giving them support as they’re looking at, um, partnering possibilities, you know, leveraging connections and giving them, you know, some, some guidance on how to even approach that process. Uh, yeah, I mean, I, I kind of wear both the ad advisor and, um, you know, there’s a bit of over. , you know, in the role of, of director and as an independent director, I, I really enjoy kind of helping bridge the gap.
Sometimes there’s tension between investors that may, um, have their own timelines, you know, um, get a little, I impatient about return on investment and the management team that’s doing the best they can to, you know, to deal with some difficult problems and. , I can help kind of moderate a bit there.
Naji Gehchan: And the last word is spread love in organizations.
Paul Hartung: Well, uh, I try to spread a lot of love with my, with the teams I work with. Um, I think it’s maybe part of, part of developing that, um, passion across the organization, if you will, for what we’re doing together, you know, so, , um, I kinda, I kinda lead by doing and, and I try to lead, lead with my behavior as well.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?
Paul Hartung: You’re doing important work, you know, keep it up. The, there, there are lots of, uh, big healthcare challenges out there and, um, we all need to be thinking of novel ways to approach them and, and get them to everybody.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much, Paul, for being with me today.
Paul Hartung: You’re very welcome. I appreciate it. Thanks
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to spread love and organization’s podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
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Sharing our core values is essential; living by them is crucial. For Jason Dupuis, this is a key part of daily leadership. His values are Passion, Dedication, and Integrity. Passion is “love what you do”; Dedication is “Be there”; integrity is “Do the right thing”, a simple framework that Jason lives by and transmits daily…More
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this podcast joined today by Jason M. Dupuis, a thought leader, speaker and organizational behavior enthusiast who believes in the power of Human Experience as a key driver of organizational performance and strategy. Over the last 20 years, Jason has served as the Chief Experience Officer for PM Pediatrics Care as well as the Administrative Director for Admitting and Emergency Services at Boston Children’s Hospital. Most recently, he joined Fidelum Health as a Consultant and Principal Healthcare Advisor to bring the Human Brand concepts of Warmth and Competence into the Human Experience in Healthcare. As a Core Value advocate and fanatic, Jason has devoted his career to successfully demonstrating that being “human first” and leading with personal and organizational core values can create efficient and profitable operations while simultaneously delivering an exceptional experience for patients, families, and care teams. In addition to his professional roles, Jason is an Adjunct Professor in the Hellenic College School of Leadership & Management as well as recently joining Boston College as an Adjunct Professor in their Masters in Healthcare Administration program.
Jason – it is such an honor to have you with me today.
Jason Dupuis: It is a tremendous honor to spend some time with you today and, talk about leadership. I’m looking forward.
Naji Gehchan: Can you please first share with us your story, how you ended up in healthcare, uh, and now teaching leadership management and being passionate about organizational behavior? I’d love to learn more about that.
Jason Dupuis: Yeah, no, of course. Um, you know, my path into healthcare was kind of an interesting one. So my, uh, it all started because my dad was in the army. And, uh, so growing up as a kid, I moved around quite a bit and, uh, when I was very young, um, my father actually, uh, became a nurse in the Army.
And so as we moved around living on, uh, military posts around the country, you know, they’re very small communities and on, in every one of those communities, they also have a hospital. And so, Uh, you know, I was able to spend a lot of time at the hospital seeing my dad and then my, my mother will also report that I spent a lot of time in their hurt, injured, and, uh, because of the crazy things that I did as a kid.
But, you know, so I spent a lot of time in the hospital and I always saw hospitals as just like a cool place where my dad worked. That was, I was comfortable there. I was excited to go there cuz I got to see my dad, um, you know, during his working hours, if you will. As I got older, I would ride my bike to the hospital when I lived in Fort Knox, Kentucky, and I would go see my dad or we would have lunch and uh, you know, so it was just kinda like hospitals were always this very comfortable place for me.
So when I got to college, I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do, knew I wanted to work in healthcare, but I didn’t wanna be a nurse. Uh, I didn’t wanna deal with any of the, kind of the blood and guts, if you will. Uh, and then, uh, I found a program at the University of Hampshire called health Management, and I was like, you know what, like, This is for me.
So my, my drive to get into healthcare was just trying to bring this idea that I’m very comfortable as a human. I’m very comfortable in the healthcare setting, whether it’s a hospital, a clinic. I grew up around it with my dad, and just saw an opportunity to bring that comfort to other kids or other patients that were going to the hospital that don’t have those feelings of, you know, they have fear and anxiety and the, and I just didn’t have those as a kid.
I, I saw it. Fun place where my dad worked, you know? And so, uh, I kind of followed in my dad’s footsteps, I guess. But, um, but that was how I actually, I really ended up in, uh, in healthcare was, was through kind of being around it as a kid and, uh, finding it to just be this amazing and fascinating place.
Naji Gehchan: Thanks for sharing Jason. And yeah. How, how, how did you end up being passionate about organizational behavior?
Jason Dupuis: Well, I don’t. Maybe watching it, right? We watch enough organizational behavior and, uh, and we become, or at least for me, I just became fascinated. Um, you know, that for me, that really developed during my time at Boston Children’s as I, as I was kind of climbing through the leadership, uh, organizational ladder and just seeing how organizations.
You know, made decisions and how all of the moving parts, like how dynamic, um, the moving parts of, of every organization are. And I just became fascinated by it. And, and what I started learning and realizing, which ties into the human stuff is like the organization. Is gonna do what an organization’s gonna do.
It’s gonna make its decision, set its strategy, create priorities, make goals. But at the end of the day, it’s the humans. The humans underneath it are the ones that you know, you have to understand, build relationships with and grow with. And so for me it was this organ, not just understanding organizational behavior, but understanding really how the humans respond and react to the organizational behavior.
And how can we. Lead through that instead of, um, allowing it to kind of control how we do something, uh, or how we execute, how can we kind of lead, you know, and understand the organization’s behavior enough to understand how to lead in it within it, the construct of the confine.
Naji Gehchan: So let, let’s double click on this.
I’m intrigued, uh, by what you describe as power of human experience. Uh, can you share with me a little bit more what do you mean by that and how does it translate into organizational
Jason Dupuis: performance? Yeah, of course. So, you know, this was a journey for me, and I know a lot are on this journey too, in, in healthcare, trying to understand human experience.
But, you know, I, I can share a little bit about when I, when I started really realizing this, um, and I, if I can, I’ll tell a very short, but a quick story. Um, you know, shortly after the height of the pandemic, I, I was with p m pediatric care at the time as the Chief Experience Officer and right after the height of the pandemic, you know, we started seeing an increase.
In, um, negative events, what we call threatening events happening within our, our sites, within our physical locations, with patient families coming in. And we had this one particular event where, um, we watched video and we saw, um, uh, it was a grandmother and our front desk person getting in. They were in some sort of an exchange we could not hear.
We could only see, and the front desk person, this particular front desk person was somebody that I knew. I had met multiple times. I knew them pretty well, and I saw them kind of just. Like they, they broke down in that situation too. Very heated exchange. The staff person actually had to be restrained, you know, pulled back away from the desk.
And it was in that moment that I realized, hey, listen, everyone is struggling right now. Right? That’s the human experience thing is like, this is not just. An angry parent or an angry grandparent with their kid and and frustrated or what, you know, that they have to go to the doctor. It’s like our staff are frustrated too.
And it was, watching that video was really where I started realizing like, Hey, we’ve gotta start shifting and start thinking about this in terms of not patient experience, not employee experience, but human experience. We need to focus on the fact that at the core, we’re all just humans. Um, and we have certain, uh, and similar behaviors and characteristics that drive our actions and reactions.
But we have to stop separating and say employee and patient. It’s like they’re really going through the same thing. And the pandemic for me was a huge example of that. Like us all going through that no one was immune or right. We, we all went through that together. It didn’t really matter. We all felt it.
We all saw it. Um, and so that was what kind of really got me going and saying like, Hey, We need to start thinking about this differently, but I wanted to go beyond thinking. We need to start looking at data differently. We need to start providing support differently, um, and be more human-centric, or as I like to say, human first, that every decision we’re making, or as we’re doing things, we make ourselves in the mind of a human before we start making strategic decisions or taking direction that we think is a human first.
How would this feel? How will it be perceived? How could we execute on it? Understanding humans under.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks, thanks for sharing this. It’s super powerful. And obviously you, you touched on something in healthcare. I was just reading a new, um, uh, article, uh, that, that went out. It seems, uh, it, you know, all the frontliners have been really struggling.
With also, you know, wrong behaviors and yes. And being aggressed. Uh, but, and, and I love how you’re sharing it. Everyone is struggling, right? Like there are both sides. And I think as leaders within organization is taking care of your people. And it’s a great segue to by second question, which is people, uh, you say, Human first.
I was going to say people first because I, I always say this. Uh, you, so I like how you framing it. It’s human first. Uh, so can you, you devoted your career practically to demonstrate that it should be human first. Um, and so can you tell us a little bit more about this? Uh, you shared the story about what brought you to this belief, so can you share a little bit more now how you’re taking this and making it a real practice?
I would say for
Jason Dupuis: organiz. Totally. I, you know, I think the primary thing, um, in as far as bringing it into practice was really reentering and refocusing within the sphere of core values. And, you know, so some of my reading, you know, that I, that I do, I call it for fun, uh, but, uh, some of the reading I do for fun isn’t necessary fun.
It’s actually very challenging and I, I enjoy it. But, um, there were two big books that I’ll mention that kind of helped this and got me onto this, uh, or reinforced rather my, my core values. As being like a true north and like that’s what’s driving everything. The first book was Sapiens, which, um, yeah, it was a book that most people, I think at this point has at least heard of.
Many are afraid to pick it up. Uh, myself was, I was included in that, uh, actually a, a former colleague, a guy by the name of Pat Dillingham, who used to work with me in, in patient experience at PM recommended it to me in an airport and he was like, dude, you gotta read this. It’s gonna be amazing. And it actually blew my mind.
And what it was, you know, what I learned in Sapiens in the first part of it was, Hey, we’re still programmed, like we were thousands of years ago. Yes, we’ve changed and technology has changed, but inside who we are at the core is still the same. And so that to me was very, you know, reassuring about core values of what we look for in other people, how we develop trust.
Uh, and then the second book, um, which is what actually and ultimately led me to Fidel Health and, and working with them was a, a book called The Human Brand, um, which was a book written. Why we love or don’t love organizations, uh, why we interact as consumers with organizations, or we don’t. And in that, uh, the, the author, uh, author Chris Malone and, uh, his, uh, colleague Susan Fisk, actually put forth warmth and competence that humans judge other humans on warmth and competence.
And when I got underneath that and started reading and studying that I saw underneath that, when we think about something like warmth, what does that mean? It means kindness. Do I trust you? And I said, core. Core value , right? These are core values, trust, kindness, respect. Um, and so it was really through kind of combining those together and saying like, at the simplest form, we are just humans.
So are we over complicating this by putting too much process, too much digital technology, too much right strategy? And are we forgetting. Kindness, empathy, compassion, respect, understanding, and it. And so I kind of see it as a back to the basics and that, and that was really how I got on this pathway was core values and reading books that were using science and um, studies to show that we’re still acting the same way we’ve acted for the last thousands of years in spite of her, despite the technology.
Yeah. Pretty wild when you think about it, right? Oh yeah, yeah,
Naji Gehchan: certainly. And this is what actually brought me to love as the name of this podcast. You know, it’s war. I, I call it love by its word. Yeah. So how, how do you ensure this, your daily work or working now with organizations really reflects what, what you like this deep belief of core values, uh, this deep belief of human first, when actually there is a constant stress, pressure on results on how we’re gonna get there.
Uh, and I’m, I’m asking you this question that I. Always receive, right? Like I, I’m a big believer of this, so I’d love to see how you frame it and how you make sure that it’s in daily practice in your organizations.
Jason Dupuis: Yeah, I think the number one thing and um, you know, I just had the fortune. I did a a a a lunch and Learn yesterday with an organization, and it was on, uh, a similar topic.
And what I was talking about with them is that, how it really starts is making sure that we individually share our own core values. Um, that we know what our core values are, and that we’re willing to discuss them and share them. And most importantly, Back them up by living them. And you know, my three core values are passion, dedication, and integrity.
And I always say passion. I love what I do. Dedication, be there, and integrity, do the right thing. And so I have tried to live my life. I have failed many times at all three of those, you know, of, you know, we all make mistakes. Um, but it really, I think, starts at that individual level. So when we say human first, it’s like, okay, so as a human I describe myself as someone who is passionate, dedicated, and operates with integrity.
Um, and I’ve spent a lot of time, or when you’re working with organizations, and I always say, I try not to work with organizations, we try to work with the team because those are the humans. It’s trying to understand what are their drivers, what are their values, what is it that they’re saying to me where I can extract what their value is.
Um, so for example, if I hear somebody saying, you know, Joe’s always. Making up something. It’s like, okay, that person, whoever that was saying that values punctuality and punctuality generally relates to respect. They wanna feel that their time is respected, right? This idea that we. , we’re very good actually as humans at making those connections.
And so I think it all starts with what are, what are our individual core values? Can we quickly create alignment around do we agree that respect is important? Do we agree? You know, I kind, I guess it’s ground rules, right? I mean, that’s what we’re saying is how do we set core value, ground rules? And then of course, it’s always my next layer to that is what are the organization’s core values and are we living them?
Right? And uh, so what are your core values? How do you. You know, is this, do people know them? Are they, are they aware? And again, I I, every time I have a conversation like this, I always say the same thing. I don’t think I’m saying anything novel. I think what I’m pointing out is like, we have removed ourselves though, from the action backing up the words.
And as a result we have a say, do gap. You know, we, we say our core values, we don’t do them. We say them though, cuz that feels good, but we need to do them more. And so as I work with organizations or I give talks or I even a podcast, it’s always, that’s my focus. Know what your core values. Be sure that others know what your core values are and spend time learning theirs.
And in that you will always find alignment, always.
Naji Gehchan: So going, going there. Uh, when you talk about values, so I’m, I’m interested, I, I know you’re teaching also leadership. Uh, is there one or two core values or. It’s very different from capabilities, but I’m intrigued if there are like one or two that you think the leadership of today leader in the 21st century specifically in healthcare, should
Jason Dupuis: have.
You know, I’m gonna be cliche in the first one, and I’m gonna say empathy and, um, and I’m using empathy on purpose, and I know it’s a bit of a buzzword now, right? Brene Brown brought us this idea of empathy and vulnerability and understanding. We all, and everybody knows it, everybody puts out content on empathy.
But, you know, when I really look at healthcare leadership, I see a tremendous lack of empathy, um, for in specifically post pandemic. The insanity that the care teams went through during the pandemic, and I think there’s a huge opportunity to be more empathetic to the struggle, more empathetic and understanding to the burnout, um, and really focusing on riding that ship, um, that has already sailed and is sinking.
And I think that, that, I see that. I read that. I hear that. And I feel that. And I think that that’s, so that’s one of the areas where I say I think empathy has to be in there. Um, and the other from a healthcare perspective has always been, and I still believe in this, is defying the status quo of, you know, that simple acceptance of what the system is.
And our willingness out of fear of change to allow the system to persist is a huge leadership problem. You know, and it’s. , um, you know, you keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result is considered insane, right? Like that, there’s a quote somewhere in that, right? That’s the definition of insanity.
Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. And so I do think that what, you know, the system from a value perspective is starved from, you know, people defying that status quo and not just simply accepting it for the way it’s. Been for the last hundred years, you know, and I think that’s, so that’s two areas in healthcare leadership where I think if, if leaders are paying attention to being empathetic to those in their charge and they are helping the people in their charge also push the envelope of innovation and defying the status quo, that that success will come behind that.
I’m gonna give
Naji Gehchan: you a word, uh, now and I’d love to your reaction to it. The first one is
Jason Dupuis: leadership passion. . I think, um, I think leadership for me is, you know, if you’re not passionate about it, you’re gonna fail. I think it’s not, you know, there’s the difference between managing and leading. Um, you know, the difference between a manager and a leader.
Uh, and I found that out early on, that like, if you’ve really enjoyed the people component of it, You have to be passionate about it. If you’re gonna be successful as a leader, if you’re not passionate about it, everyone sees through you very quickly. And so every time I hear leadership or anything like it, I think I’m passionate about it.
And you have to be passionate, . I mean, uh, because it’s not easy. It is not an easy task. And if you’re, as soon as your passion goes, it’s time to go. I, I really believe that.
Naji Gehchan: The second one is health.
Jason Dupuis: You know, I think for me what comes to mind is my human first statement. That if we, you know, if we really start paying attention to the fact that, you know, things aren’t fair, um, and we start paying attention to the fact that we are all humans, that it helps us.
Shift the paradigm a little bit. Not to separate out groups, but to say, Hey, can we rally around the one thing that we all have in common? And that is human. So let’s be a human first and then start building systems that consider all humans as humans and not build systems here and there and everywhere.
That never takes into considerations. Humans in general. And so, um, yeah, no, that was, that was actually equity, health equity or equity in general. And healthcare has always brought me into my, that human first brain of saying if we can do that really well and treat each other just like humans, we can make a lot of headway.
The third
Naji Gehchan: one is
Jason Dupuis: sis. Homeostasis. You gotta love it. Um, , you know, one of the big teachings of my dad as a, as a kid, uh, and then as a teenager, and then as an adult, and then as a grown man to give him credit was balance and right. The, the definition of homeostasis, essentially balance in a system. And, you know, so anytime that I kind of feel that there is an imbalance in a system, I feel like it is our responsibility.
To not just try to fix it, but to understand it and try to fix it. And I think oftentimes homeostasis in healthcare doesn’t get achieved because we just try to fix it and we don’t always understand the problem. And I think we’ve been action oriented that way by organizational decree, by history, by organizational structure.
And so I would say every time I hear homeostasis, the first thing that comes to my mind is balance. And if you wanna establish balance and you wanna improve, you have to understand the problem that gives you the balance. That true under. Love it.
Naji Gehchan: What about spread love in organizations?
Jason Dupuis: You know, I have been very fortunate in my career, you know, between Boston Children’s and p and pediatric cares that, you know, I’ve worked with extremely passionate people and I’ve worked with some not passionate people, right?
Um, and this idea of being able to spread love to each other inside of an organization is really talking about building community. Whereas, um, as you’ve all would say in Sapiens, you know, building your tribe, um, and when you have love in your tribe, there’s trust, there’s belonging, uh, and there’s progress.
Uh, when you don’t. , you have war and separation and you know, all the other kind of the negative components. And so I hear love. You know, I think organizational love or love throughout an organization is really getting everybody on the same page and believing in each other, which then allows you to believe in the organization.
I, I think very rarely do people just believe in an organization. They believe in the people within the organization, and you can put love into that.
Naji Gehchan: That’s, that’s so powerful and I can’t agree more with you, totally. With this. Any final word of wisdom, Jason, for, uh, healthcare leaders around the world?
Jason Dupuis: Yeah, you know, I would say that, uh, the one thing that I learned, I learned it during the pandemic, I learned it during my time in the emergency department at Boston Children’s, was that the number one thing a healthcare leader can do is. and, um, you know, that goes into my core value of dedication, which translates to me to be there.
Um, there’s never really a reason as a leader that you can’t show up. I think showing up is a choice that every leader makes, and that the best leaders, the most amazing leaders that I worked with were never, ever afraid to show up, never ever afraid to show up and listen, and never, ever afraid to show up and listen.
And, and, um, you know, so for anyone that’s in healthcare leadership or trying to grow a career in, in a career that brings you into healthcare leadership, I would, I would say those are the things I would take away is always showing. Um, it’s, it’s the easiest thing to do sometimes is to physically show up.
Uh, but it matters when you do and everyone notices. It does.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much, uh, Jason, for being with me today and for this incredible chat.
Jason Dupuis: Thank you. Unbelievable, unbelievable pleasure. Thank you.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to spread love and organization’s podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
Naji Gehchan: I am Naji, your host for this episode, joined today by Minette Norman. Minette brings decades of leadership experience in the software industry to her consulting business focused on developing transformational leaders who create inclusive working environments with a foundation of psychological safety. Minette has extensive experience leading globally distributed teams and believes that when groups leverage diversity in all its forms, breakthroughs happen. Her most recent position before starting her own consultancy was as Vice President of Engineering Practice at Autodesk, where she transformed how Autodesk developed software. Responsible for influencing more than 3,500 engineers around the globe, she focused on state-of-the-art engineering practices while nurturing a collaborative and inclusive culture. Minette is a keynote speaker on topics of inclusive leadership, psychological safety in the workplace, and embracing empathy. Named in 2017 as one of the “Most Influential Women in Bay Area Business” by the San Francisco Business Times and as “Business Role Model of the Year” in the 2018 Women in IT/Silicon Valley Awards, Minette is a recognized leader with a unique perspective. Minette has co-authored a book about psychological safety for leaders, The Psychological Safety Playbook: Lead More Powerfully by Being More Human, which will be published in February 2023. Her second book, The Boldly Inclusive Leader, will be published in August 2023.
Minette – great to have you with me today!
Minette Norman: Thanks for having me, Naji. It’s really nice to be here.
Naji Gehchan: Can you share with us first your personal story from drama and French, uh, at school to leading tech and software companies, and now being focused on transformational leadership? What’s in between the lines of this inspiring journey?
Minette Norman: Inspiring an improbable journey, I would say from drama French.
You’re right. You know, I got out of university with this double major in drama in French and wanted to be a professional actor, but realized what a hard life that is and I hated rejection and auditions and so I really fell back on my second major French and I got a job in my mid twenties. At the French trade, or?
Yeah, the French Trade Commission in New York City. And it was at a time when they were transitioning from. IBM electric typewriter on every desk, two PCs. And so suddenly I had this PC on my desk and I discovered I was quite good at understanding the technology and also helping others learn it. And that’s what actually led me into my 30 years in Silicon Valley.
I, I moved. Back to California where I had grown up and I got my first job in tech at Adobe in 1989 when they were developing Photoshop 1.0. And my first assignment was to write the Photoshop 1.0 tutorial. And that was the start of this, this 30 year career. And I loved it and I loved. The technology, but I really liked working with people.
Like even when I was trying to figure out the complexity of some software that I needed to describe, my favorite things were just sitting down with the engineers and picking their brains and trying to understand how can I take this really complicated technology and make it digestible and simple? So I did that for about 10 years as a writer, and then at one point my manager at a different company said, you know, I need you to manage the team of writers cuz I have too many direct reports.
So that was when I went from being an individual contributor to a manager. and I didn’t plan for that. I didn’t aspire to management or leadership. I kind of went in a little bit kicking and screaming that I didn’t think I wanted to do that. But you know, that connection that I loved to have with people was actually what I learned was the most important thing in being a manager.
In being a leader is that I really loved managing people. Cuz it’s all about human connection and it’s all about getting to know people who. Different talents and different backgrounds and different skills. So I, I ended up embracing management and leadership and I just progressed through very, you know, probably, I’m trying to think.
I probably had six to eight different jobs within the same company, starting as that first. First level manager of technical writers. Then I moved into a totally different area. I managed localization, which is getting all of the products translated and localized for international markets. And then finally, my last job, which you actually described was that I ended up as the VP of engineering practice.
And I kind of briefly just tell how that happened, which is that I had been leading a big team within a company and I had really done a big transformation. And then suddenly my boss, who was the VP of engineering said he was leaving the role. and I thought, huh, well that would be interesting. And I raised my hand and I said, you know, I would love to apply for this role, even if I’m not the most obvious person to lead engineering.
And the the senior vice president who was hiring for the role said, you know, I know your reputation. I know you’re good at what you do, but you know you’re not an engineer. , and you’re a woman and it’s such a boys club, so you’re gonna have to break into the boys club. And he gave me a 90 day trial for that role.
And so I was an acting VP for 90 days, which was really hard, and it’s probably another topic for a different podcast. But at the end of the 90 days, I got that job and I did that for five years. And in that time I realized that our transformation wasn’t about technology. , even though we had things we had to do technically, it was really about human interaction.
It was about collaboration. It was about listening to other people who might have great ideas instead of digging in and saying, I have the best idea, or My team has the best idea. And so I really worked on collaboration and trying to get people to listen to one another and inclusion and having empathy for various perspectives.
And I discovered, uh, the whole. Science of psychological safety and all the research on that and realized how critical that was and how lacking it was. And ultimately after five years in that job, loving it, but also realizing there’s only so much I can do in one company. I left and I started my own thing because I wanna really work with many more organizations to help them lead better, lead more inclusively, and really create an environment where everyone can thrive and do their best work.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much mi for sharing your, uh, your story and really those, there’s lot of powerful things you said, so let’s take them, dissect them and, and dig into it. So the first piece is really about this, um, this role you had as a vp, uh, leading this global team of experts, engineers around the globe. So you have diverse people and you said boys club.
So I’m, I’m interested to get your perspective on this too. And really, Delivering this transformation, as you said, through collaboration and inclusion, which is not probably spontaneously what you would think of VP of Engineering. Engineering in a tech company. Right. So I, I’d love to get your story behind this and how did you manage to do it and deliver exceptional results?
Minette Norman: Well, you know, it started with, I kind of got an edict from on high, which was that everyone had to get on a common set of tools. So we were moving from having like 20 different source code repositories to getting all onto GitHub. So that seems like a very technical challenge. How do we get all this code from all these disparate systems into one?
But what I was discovering in the process, cuz I had a great, I hired great people who worked with me and for me and who had very, very technical skills. And what I realized when they were trying to get teams to adopt new technology is that all of the teams were very siloed and they all thought that they had the best solution.
Very smart people, you know, a lot of them had come in through acquisitions and they had just retained their knowledge and cultures from, from the acquired companies. And so what I realized is that, I have people I’m working with who understand all the technical nuance and details. That’s not really where I need to focus.
Where I need to focus is how on earth can we get three more than 3000 engineers in all different countries all over the globe working. Together for com, like actually sharing code instead of rewriting code. How can we do that? And so I started, we put on a big technical summit and I would keynote there every year and I started researching, I mean not doing original research, sorry, reading other people’s research on collaboration and neuroscience, cuz I was really interested in how we work together and how we don’t.
And so I just basically got myself a great education and I started talking about these things. So I would lead meetings. I would give a talk at a conference internally, and instead of talking about how are we gonna get all the code into GitHub, I would talk about how hard it is to collaborate and how we can do better, or how we might have empathy for people that don’t see eye to eye with us.
And that’s how it began. And I will tell you, I felt like I was jumping off this very, very scary cliff the first time I gave one of those talks in front of a room of a thousand engineers. I remember the night before one. Saying to myself, oh my God, you’re gonna get up and talk about empathy to a room full of engineers.
How’s that gonna go? You know, there was a sleepless night, . But what I’ll tell you Naji that surprised me in a really positive way is remembering that we are all human. It doesn’t matter how brilliant or how technical you are, I had people who were some of the most. Technical people in the company come up to me after one of those talks and say, you know, Minette, thank you so much for bringing up these topics that we don’t talk about enough.
We need more of this. And it just reinforced that shared humanity that we too often ignore. And it’s what makes work hard. And it’s ma, it’s what makes people suffer at work because we cut off our humanity and we cut off our emotions, and we think we have to have this f facade of perfection at work and leave all the emotions at the door.
And that’s not how human beings operate.
Naji Gehchan: I so relate to what you’re saying. This is why I was, I was smiling all the time. It’s, you know, I, I had the same feeling, uh, saying that I wanna spread love in the organization, , and with all that comes with love. And, and you had it with empathy, I think. And the interesting piece is, every time I’m discussing with leaders, thinkers, um, like, like yourself, there is always.
Fear practically of talking about this to people and then suddenly the surprise of actually maybe people didn’t know about or it’s great that leaders are talking about it, but yet like we, every time our. A little bit afraid or anxious about bringing those topics to organizations and to people. So thank you so much for sharing this.
Uh, and you touched also on psychological safety as it’s a key component of your leadership and how, how you’ve done it. Um, you even have a playbook, uh, about psychological safety and how we should do it. So can you tell us a little bit more on how we can apply it in our organizations as leaders, and what are your key learnings of actually being a practitioner and doing it?
Minette Norman: Yeah. And you know, it’s, it’s so foundational and, and there’s tons of research out there that shows that organizations that have a high level of psychological safety have better performance and higher innovation and higher employee retention and engagement. And so, you know, honestly I was doing it by trial and error when I was leading teams is like, how can we try to get people comfortable speaking up?
And I’ll tell you what informed. My interest in it was actually being in meetings where I did not feel comfortable speaking up. And that was, I would say unfortunately that was more the norm than the exception. You know, I would be in these leadership meetings and there would be sort of the dominant two or three people that would speak up all the time.
And that’s like, that’s just common group dynamics. And then there would be the others that are just holding back. And I was often one of those others who felt like, Ooh, I have to weigh every word carefully, and especially, you know, Being a woman in tech, you’re definitely in the minority. I was often the only woman in the room, and I felt this burden of, if I say something, it better be the most well thought out, most intelligent thing, and not like just an idea off the top of my head or just, you know, something that’s a half formed thought.
but then I realized like when you think back to the best teams you’ve ever been a part of, and I had remembered being in a team early in my career actually, um, where, you know, we never knew the word psychological safety, but we had this group of people, there were probably eight to 10 of us, and we collaborated in a way that was like every single person fully participated.
every single person’s voice was heard equally. No one dominated. We had fun. We put out a great release and we respected everyone’s point of view. And I’m like, this is possible. I know this is possible. How did we do it? And so I, I worked on, you know, I certainly read Amy Edmondson’s work. I read the big Google study project, Aristotle.
I read everything I could find on it, and then I just started practicing. And by the time. It came to writing this book. I met this, I met this woman in Germany, in in a virtual class, Caroline Hek. And we both were realizing that there is lots of research about psychological safety and so many people buy into the idea that it’s important, but there’s little practical information on how to implement it.
And she reached out to me with a crazy idea saying, why don’t we try to write something? And that was the origin of the Psychological Safety Playbook, which just came out a little over two weeks ago. . But you know, I’ll give you an example of something in there that’s just very tangible that you can do, and especially for leaders.
I tried this when I was leading teams. It’s like people looked up to you. You have this sort of, you know, hierarchical power, whether you want it or not, or whether you believe in it or not, but you do. And people are watching your behavior. And if you say like you’re putting forth the strategy for the quarter, people are not gonna question you on it.
Generally. They might do it behind your back. But, so I wanted feedback and I would say, What am I missing? What have I not thought of? And that’s like one of the first things in our book is that powerful question of what am I missing? Because what you’re signaling, especially if you’re in a leadership position of any kind, is that you are not perfect.
You are not omniscient. You can’t possibly know everything, and you’re welcoming other perspectives. And you know, I know your podcast is particularly geared at the medical community. This is super, super important in a medical setting. And in fact, Amy Edmondson’s original research, you probably know, took place in the medical field and she found.
For example, if people are willing to challenge a doctor, someone who’s not a doctor, challenge a doctor, like, I think you made a mistake in dispensing this medication that can save someone’s life. But if that, for example, if it’s a nurse who doesn’t feel comfortable, challenging and saying, I think you might have made a mistake.
I think you might have missed something. Then, you know, a patient’s life could be at risk there. And that’s what she found in her research. So this is so critical that no matter how elevated your position, that you realize you can’t see everything. You can’t know everything, and you need to deliberately invite other people to call you out on that.
And you have to be open when they do challenge you to not getting defensive and saying, Thank you. I really hadn’t thought of that. And oh gosh, I really might have missed something here. And being open to those perspectives. So that’s one of the 25 tips that we have have in our book as a practical thing you can put into, into practice immediately.
Naji Gehchan: This is, this is great. And, uh, yeah, I had, I had the opportunity to interview actually on the podcast, Amy Edmondson, where, where she shared about her research. Um, and definitely in the healthcare system we see it, we see it everywhere, right? So I think you’re bringing great pieces on, speaking up on being vulnerable also as a leader and humble enough to say, Yeah, sometimes, I don’t know, sometimes I make mistakes.
Sometimes I want, like, I want the feedback, I want it back to me. Uh, so it’s really, uh, tho those are really great practical tips. You’re, um, you’re sharing with us, uh, you know, another piece on psychological safety, I, I never shared, uh, I’d love your reaction to this. Um, I, I was in a team where some people actually, you know, when you get into a managerial position, Again, like people would expect to know, uh, and because of a lack of psychological safety environment, people might keep on doing things, not knowing what are they doing, but just because they are afraid to say, I don’t know, because the expectation of the organization, they managers, they should know.
So this is for me how I started to be even more and more interested in psychological safety. But when I discovered at some point that part of my managers. Really never took a certain training on a specific capability, but actually they were afraid of saying that they never did it because everyone expected them to know.
Also, I think like there’s a lot of things around psychological safety that are super powerful and can be actually risky, as you said, in, in, in medicine where you might end up taking the wrong decisions for the patients you’re serving. If, if we talk about the challenges you faced as you were doing this as a practitioner, and I’m sure it’s in the 25 tips and advices you’re bringing, but what is the biggest challenge you faced as you were building this culture?
As you were building this, um, those really fundamentals pieces of leadership that you believe in, in your organizations with your managers too, who also manage people, uh, and how did you manage this, and how did you get around of those pieces? .
Minette Norman: You know, I think that the, the hardest piece was overcoming people’s resistance and defensiveness when we’re trying to drive change, when we’re trying to get them to work together.
Because there’s, I mean, I think there’s this fear. I, I do think a lot of resistance is fear-based, that if I work. with someone else and their idea actually comes out as the winning idea or you know, we adopt their technology or their methodology, then I will be diminished somehow and my skills will not be seen as, you know, top-notch skills because someone else’s solution one out.
So I think there’s a lot of ego involved in it, and I definitely saw that and, you know, people butting heads and not listening to each other. Just digging in and like, I’m only gonna advocate for my perspective. I’m not actually gonna listen to understand. Your perspective, and that’s why, you know, we have a whole chapter in our playbook on listening, because what I found is people were preparing how they were gonna respond and defend their position rather than truly listening to another person’s.
Idea or another person’s solution. And so that was why I focused so much on collaboration and all the skills around collaboration cuz I found that people would dig in and I think it’s based in fear and it’s based in ego. And even my own staff members, like I had sort of a disparate group of, of disciplines that reported to me and it wasn’t obvious how they could all work together.
So I was saying like if we’re trying to drive the company to work together, then we eight people need to work really closely together. But there was a little bit of like, that’s not my area. This is my expertise and I don’t wanna cross over. So I think it’s just this, you know, It comes back to biology and our brains in some ways, in that we feel defensive.
We go, we feel like if someone’s on our turf, if someone’s attacking our idea, we go into that fight, flight, freeze mode. That’s our amygdala taking over. Right? I think it comes into play. all the time in the workplace because we are feeling attacked in some way. And so what I had to learn, and I had to learn this myself, naji, I was actually one of those people that would, you know, snap at people if they attacked me or if they said, you know, that’s a bad idea.
I had to learn to actually calm my brain. And, you know, take that pause. If someone says, you know, Manette, that’s a, that idea’s never gonna work. Pause, take a breath. And then instead of, Defending or attacking back, just going. Okay. Can you explain to me why? I really wanna understand, you know, and that was a, that is something I’ve had to practice and I’ve had to try to get my staff members to practice.
Um, we, you know, one of the most useful things we ever did as a staff was we, we had someone in our organization who was an improvisation actor, and we did improv training. And it was that idea that let’s not shoot down one of, you know, one another’s ideas. In improv, you have to go Yes. And, and just continue the improv.
And so we put that into practice in our staff meetings. And it was, it was a funny thing, like we did this improv day. It was really fun. And then after that we followed up in our staff meetings. When we got back into those bad patterns of shooting down each other’s ideas or getting defensive, we would just use the phrase yes and, and it would remind.
To keep our minds open and to keep our hearts open. And so, you know, it’s a, it’s honestly an ongoing practice, but I think it’s, it’s super valuable.
Naji Gehchan: I love it. It was one of my best courses, improv leadership and, you know, taking the offer and building on it. So I, I have a follow up question on this cuz we talked about ego, about your idea being taken and obviously as you said, it’s something human, right?
Like it’s ingrained in us and sometimes you can get defensive, but I wanna touch on incentives also and as leaders, how you can build those system because somehow the incentive you bring. . If you’re gonna recognize at the end of the day the idea that won, probably you’re unconsciously creating this. Like you wanna have an idea that wins for you to be recognized.
So how did you think about all this? Like how, how did you incentivize people who idea didn’t won or. Do you even talk about ideas winning or, you know, or more like a we team winning, I’m, I’m intrigued about also the incentives team
Minette Norman: around those pieces. Yeah, we, I actually had to focus, this is such an important question, Naji, because I had to focus on that.
It’s like, what do we reward? How do we reward the behavior that we want to see? And it’s not an individual idea. It’s not an individual. So we actually started to put into place incentives for collaboration. So, and it was, it’s hard to measure this, but we started, so one of the things we would do, like, for example, for our annual summit, we rewarded teams that presented a paper together, you know, where a team from one group would present with a team.
From another on a shared solution. Everyone wins. Everyone is rewarded. You know, I would get up and, and you know, publicize these kinds of wins across collaboration. We started to do something a little geeky, but it was actually quite interesting is that we started to get metrics on. Who was, who was actually using code from another team in GitHub.
So we were measuring poll requests and like, oh, are they coming from other organizations? And then let’s, let’s elevate that and, and celebrate that. So we were finding all sorts of creative ways to recognize and reward. Collaboration and cross pollination of ideas rather than, you know, the brilliant genius who came up with something alone.
And that was not what we wanted. We wanted really, and so that was, we had a different reward center and, and certainly really elevating collaboration and, you know, cross pollination and not celebrating individuals as much.
Naji Gehchan: So what, what would you say for people who think if you don’t have enough competition, In between teams, you’re gonna lose on innovation.
So was collaboration bringing more innovation than putting people and making sure that egos fight and one wins, in other words?
Minette Norman: Oh, that’s so, that’s such an interesting one and I’m probably don’t even have a great, a great answer to that, but you know, I think, I mean, competition is also can be really healthy, right?
We all, I mean, I don. I’m competitive. I, I love games and I love to win games and like, I think that can be fueling good energy, not bad energy, but I think it can’t be based on like one winner and everyone else is a loser. It has to be that our overall goal is really to make this organization successful, make our customers successful, and that it has to be based in.
Bigger aspiration, you know, that we are, we’re changing the world. You know, whether, you know, your, your group’s in through medicine, but ours were through software that was really having very, very positive impacts on the world, and it has to have a greater meaning. So yes, we can compete to come up with the best solution.
It’s not. Because we’re gonna get a big bonus ourselves. It’s because the world is gonna be better. Our customer’s gonna have a new solution that I think can be healthy competition, but it’s not like the zero sum gain of everyone is, you know, someone’s gonna lose here. It’s that we are all working together towards a common goal and a common purpose.
And then competition can be healthy if it’s, you know, I think there has to be an element of fun in competition as opposed to cutthroat. I win, you lose, you know, type of, I
Naji Gehchan: love it. What’s your number one advice today for the leaders and transformational leaders? You are. You are helping out with your new
Minette Norman: organization.
I think the number one thing I would say is that you have to start with your own behavior. Your own self-awareness of how you interact with others before you can drive any kind of a transformation. So start with how are you listening? How are you reacting when people challenge you? How are you inviting, dissent?
And you can do this through little, little changes in in your next one-on-one meeting. In your next meeting, listen differently. Invite the quiet person to speak and. Take that pause if you’re gonna have a defensive reaction and don’t, don’t respond defensively. Just ask a curious question. And I think that if you start every day with this intention of I am gonna have better interactions at work and I am going to invite everyone to fully participate, you can make a huge difference.
And I think it’s a daily practice, honestly.
Naji Gehchan: So Vinetta, I’m gonna give you a word now. and I want to get your reaction to it. What comes first to mind? Oh boy.
Minette Norman: Okay,
Naji Gehchan: so the first one is leadership challenging. The second one is inclusive culture
Minette Norman: required. . Can you say more about it? Yes. Well, inclusive culture, if you, if you want to really benefit from every single individual in your organization, then you need to create a culture in which everyone can fully participate in which all of their ideas can come forth and which.
Each one of them can share their wild ideas and their brilliant ideas and their half baked ideas, and they will not be embarrassed or excluded. So the inclusive culture is what go, is going to create your breakthrough ideas. If everyone can fully be heard and seen and respected, but if people come to work feeling like, sorry, this is, we wouldn’t be well beyond one word , but if people come to work feeling like, I don’t dare speak up.
I’m gonna mask who I really am. You’re not gonna benefit from all the, the magic they have inside themselves.
Naji Gehchan: What about transformational leadership?
Minette Norman: This is still a one word answer.
Naji Gehchan: You can do more . Okay? It’s a two word. So you can do more
Minette Norman: Transformational leadership, I think. coming back to, it starts with you.
It starts with you. You have to be the leader that people want to work with, and you cannot drive transformation without everybody else around you. It’s not a one person job, so you have to be inviting, maybe I would say, you know, inviting is a really important word. You have to invite all the ideas and get everyone marching in the same direction, moving in the same direct.
Naji Gehchan: And the last one is spread love in organizations.
Minette Norman: Yeah. You know, it’s so funny when you, when I saw the name of this podcast, so you have that reaction. One has the reaction of love in organizations, and I would say to me, that’s about care. It’s about caring about every human being as a fellow human being.
So it’s caring. That’s love.
Naji Gehchan: any final word of wisdom? Milad Four leaders around the world.
Minette Norman: I would say that you have so much more power to change the workplace than you know, even if you’re not in the C-suite, if you’re a first line manager or any level of leadership, people are looking at you. They’re watching your behavior. They’re watching what you reward. They’re watching. What you ignore, and they’re watching what you punish.
And so you are in the spotlight whether you like it or not. And so pay attention and become, we say become bravely self-aware of your own behavior and how you’re showing up and show up in the way that is going to be inspiring to others because that’s, that’s what you have. You have that platform. Use it for.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much. That’s powerful words and a charge for us as leaders, uh, as we go forward leading our organizations and improving and changing the word. Thank you so much, Minette, for being with me today and this incredible chat.
Minette Norman: Thank you for inviting me, Naji. It’s been a pleasure.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to spread love and organization’s podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this episode joined today by Phil Budden Senior Lecturer at MIT Sloan focusing on ‘innovation-driven entrepreneurship’ (IDE) and innovation ecosystems. Phil’s approach combines academic, historical and real-world perspectives on how different stakeholders can all contribute to building successful innovation ecosystems. Prior to MIT, Phil had undertaken projects on innovation and entrepreneurship for the British Prime Minister’s office and served as the British Consul General to New England where he had been responsible for transatlantic business issues, including trade and investment, corporate/government affairs, as well as science and innovation. Phil has held several diplomatic posts with the British government: British Cabinet Office; British Embassy, Washington DC; 1st Secretary and Adviser to the PM. Phil holds a BA and MA in History from Lincoln College, the University of Oxford; an MA in History and Government from Cornell University; and a PhD in History and International Political Economy from the University of Oxford.
Dr. Phil – it is such a pleasure to have you with me today.
Phil Budden: Naji, it is a pleasure to be with you. Thank you for having me on your podcast, and I’m looking forward to chatting.
Naji Gehchan: It’s a really special episode today, having a great diplomat who, uh, I had this pleasure to have as a professor at MIT during innovation entrepreneurship classes.
Uh, can you tell us, uh, Phil, more about your personal story from learning history to diplomacy and now teaching at m i t mm-hmm. . What’s, what’s in between this great, uh, journey you.
Phil Budden: Well, uh, nudge, it’s a great question and you were a great student. It’s one of the things I really enjoy about being at m i T.
So, uh, uh, yes, you went through my cv. I was training to be a historian. Uh, turned out I had a good memory. Um, for historical dates, I was an introvert. I loved reading, and so I wanted to be a historian and I was training to be a historian until history happened, and this will date me. Uh, but the Berlin Wall came down and so I pivoted and said, I don’t just want to study history, um, of the past because history is happening around us.
And so I pivoted to become a. I’d always been fairly international in my perspective. Speak a a few language.
Um, and so I always took a, a, a sort of more global perspective thing, so became a diplomat and had a wonderful 20 year career as a diplomat. Uh, and then had an opportunity to stay here in Boston. And I’m honored to be, uh, a senior lecturer at MIT’s management school. Um, having got a doctorate before going into diplomacy, I was nicknamed.
Dr. Phil, because there’s not many diplomats with doctorates and it seems to have stuck. And so, uh, I am not that Dr. Phil, I’m a different doctor Phil. Um, but that is how you find me at m i t now getting to teach great students like you. Oh,
Naji Gehchan: thanks. Thanks. Uh, Phil, uh, uh, uh, before going into, uh, where your focus is, uh, and what you worked on, you said I was an introvert, so I’m very interested with the past term.
And knowing you, I would have never said you are an introvert, so I, I’m, I’m like, I think we’re pretty similar. I’m an introvert too, so I, I’d love to hear mm-hmm. , why you said I was and did you work mm-hmm. on not becoming one, and it’s definitely not the perception that I think many of us have as your
Phil Budden: student.
That, that’s a great question. Now, Naji, I was and still am, uh, an introvert and it’s one of the things I’ve had to reckon with on my leadership journey when I was going to be an academic historian, it did ma did not matter that I was an introvert and loved research and study. , but through my diplomatic career, I had to, um, develop and evolve.
One of the misconceptions about introvert extrovert, um, comes down to that actually. They’re about the source of where we draw energy and we introverts draw our energy and recovery from stepping back from people and recovering and re. Uh, it doesn’t mean we’re any less sociable. Uh, you know, Naji, uh, and I are both very sociable people.
I’ve seen us at Ember parties, um, extroverts, however, get their energy from being around other people. And so for them it’s hard for them to be alone. So, yes, people are often surprised when I tell them I’m an introvert, but I think it’s important to do that because I think you can lead whether you recharge as an introvert.
By yourself or you recharge as an extrovert for some strange reason, wanting to be surrounded by people. Um, and that’s one of the things, uh, I’ve discovered. So I am, I, I reckon with my introversion, I can get up and I can teach, I can socialize, but then I need a chance to fall back. And often I will reach for a history book and just read about the world and recover in that way.
But I think it just shows that there’s a variety of ways of becoming a. . So true. And I think
Naji Gehchan: it it relates to if you love people, actually it doesn’t, you can be an introvert, love people. Mm-hmm. or extrovert love people. It’s just a matter that you need some time for yourself to recharge Exactly as you said.
Mm-hmm. . Exactly. But the key for, for leaders is obviously caring for others, right. As we’re gonna be discussing today. Yes. So you, you’ve seen and helped with the birth, uh, of several ideas. Uh, some of them turned into startup. Grew, uh mm-hmm. , what has been for you, the key for those who became successful ventures from all those that you’ve seen throughout the past years?
Mm.
Phil Budden: It, it has been fascinating. I, I worked on innovation when I was in government and at, ill teach about innovation, uh, here at, at m i t and one of the very humbling things is, Just the sheer volume of ideas that people have that they want to take forward. And this is not limited to young male coders in hoodies creating the next digital dance app.
It turns out that people, you know, mid-career, um, who have not had a background in technology can also be great innovators. In fact, often they can be. Because they know the challenges of the world. They know the problems that need to be fixed, and I love being at M I T because we’re not obsessed with just the purely web-based digital apps we have.
Doctors and medical professionals who want to make the world better through innovation in their areas of expertise. We have people from national security and defense who want to make the world a more secure space through deep technology and hard technology. We have people who are interested in the energy transition and achieving climate net zero.
Which you’re not gonna do with digital dance apps. You need people who are going to work on fusion energy and carbon capture. Uh, and so it’s a privilege to be at m I t and just see amazing people, professors, students, the broader ecosystem coming up with ideas about innovation that’s actually gonna have meaning for them, and they will lead that innovation through to impact.
So
Naji Gehchan: you, you mentioned several times ecosystems and you’re passionate about it and you actually work on it. So can you help us a little bit more understand and share your view about what do you mean by ecosystems that can foster innovation and entrepreneurship?
Phil Budden: Uh, that’s a great question, and I’m drawing on some fabulous m i t professors research in this area.
The ecosystem term helps us to answer a question, why is the world not. You know, Tom Friedman told us 20 years ago, the world is flat. Uh, anything can happen anywhere. And in terms of innovation, it’s not flat. In fact, it’s not fair. There are perfectly good places and perfectly good people that are left behind by innovation.
And so ecosystem is, uh, a model to try to understand why does the best innovation happen in certain places. , um, Silicon Valley, Boston, Cambridge, London, on a good day. Uh, why does it not happen in other places? Perfectly good Places like Nebraska, Kentucky, um, Scotland, Wales. And so the ecosystem becomes our way to both answer that empirical question, but also to give us a framework to take things forward.
And the thing about an ecosystem, rather, like in biology, it’s. There’s a variety of different players and species. There’s a des there’s a variety of different assets and and nutrients. Some of them are in collaborative relationships. Some are predatory. Some are parasitic. But this ecosystem, organic model is something we’ve now taught for a decade based on prior research and seems to help us explain why things happen in some places and not in others.
So can you in a
Naji Gehchan: nutshell tell us.
Phil Budden: Happen. I can give you the framework. So this is where my, his, this is where my history kicks in. Um, and so the ecosystem model helps explain why the industrial revolution and started in England, despite its many problems, why it spread the way it did. And this is relevant today for the 21st century.
And I think really important as we head into the, uh, economic turbulence ahead. So ecosystems, In the places on the planet that do best at innovation, there are five key stakeholders, one of which is the entrepreneur. Then there’s the traditional ones in the so-called triple helix of government, university, and big business.
Now, if a committee of government, university and big business was enough to solve problems, we’d all be rich. The challenge. That’s not enough to have a committee. You need to have the entrepreneur at the table because they’re the ones who are creating the enterprises of the future. And one of the things I’ve discovered in my corporate innovation research and teaching is sometimes big companies find it awfully hard to innovate, even if they came from an innovative startup.
So you do need entrepreneurs to keep refreshing that. Uh, and as you’ll have spotted, there’s a fifth one, and that is what we called risk. So venture capital is a form of that, but also angel investing, private equity, corporate venture capital, the ones who are willing to to fund the entrepreneurs. And so this five stakeholder model seems to apply around the world.
We’ve taught this in an M I T program called reap. We’ve now worked with 80 teams from all of the major continents, from most of the different political systems. The same five stakeholders seem to matter whether you are in Chile or China. Beirut or Paris. And so this is a model that is informed by our research, but also seems to be a framework for those who want to make a real difference and lead for impact in companies and communities that matter to them.
Thanks for
Naji Gehchan: sharing this framework. Uh, what is the role of leadership and all?
Phil Budden: Oh, leadership is key. So the word innovation, people when they hear this, they sometimes think it’s technology that all you need is a piece of technology, and M I t produces lots of technology. All you need is the app or access to the cloud or a fusion reactor.
Well, The M I T approach to innovation is the technology is important, but it’s not enough. You need to have leadership to go from the technology and the idea to impact, because the biggest challenge is not the technology, it’s usual, the people, the processes, and the systems. How do you bring the technology to bear?
Innovation does not happen spontaneously or sustainably without leadership. And so I spend a lot of my time working with executives saying, y Y. You may no longer feel that you are the most entrepreneurial tech savvy or innovative person in your organization, but if you are in a leadership role, Your leadership is crucial at empowering people around you, supporting them to, to spread the love about innovation and make it safe for people to, to innovate.
And so leadership really is the deciding factor within ecosystems, but also within companies and sectors. I love it.
Naji Gehchan: And how you frame that, leadership takes those innovative tech to
Phil Budden: impact Yeah. Out. They don’t get that by themselves. Well, a
Naji Gehchan: totally different question, uh, about diplomacy. I, I, do you miss being a
Phil Budden: diplomat?
Um, it was, that’s a great question. It was a great honor to be a British diplomat. Um, my final job was British Consult General to New England. Um, and especially to m i t. Uh, it was a great privilege to serve my country and my queen. Um, So I miss aspects of that. But the interesting thing is, I, I still find myself performing little d diplomacy.
Um, it turns out before diplomacy had become the action of of nation states, lots of people could be diplomatic. And so I actually think there are lessons from diplomacy, including in innovation ecosystems. You know, the way that an executive from a corporation engages the rest of the ecosystem requires a form of dis diploma.
Um, in the theory of diplomacy, it’s often regarded as the, uh, the mediation of estrangement, coping with differences, and so understanding the differences between a corporate leader at a startup venture between a government official and a university academic. So one of the things I find myself teaching some of the students, though not you yet Naji, is how to take these diplomatic approaches and to think like a diplomat, because it’s not the same as just command and control within a company if people still do that, uh, it’s not the same as, you know, between a professor and a student.
It really does require respect, understanding, and a realization that we sometimes speak different languages when we talk about innovation and technology, even if it’s all in some form of.
Naji Gehchan: That’s, that’s great to, to have this kind of how you’re transfer one part of diplomacy and I agree. Like we’re diplomats talking with people, managing relationship is super important in what we do.
Yeah. What, what, what is your view, uh, I don’t know if it’s a politically correct question, but I’d love your current view on global diplomacy in this ongoing craziness. I would say in the word and unfortunate things
Phil Budden: happening. Yes. , I think it just reminds us that diplomacy is even more important than than ever.
Land war has sadly returned to Europe. Um, and so there’s also a needed for hard edged defense, but diplomacy never stops. And so ultimately we’re still going to be living along alongside each other as nations. And so diplomacy as the way to mediate, estrangement, um, is going to be necessary. And diplomacy is not just with your friends and all.
It’s with your competitors and adversaries. And so I think it’s through diplomacy that we actually need to address these issues, that we need to come to some sort of halt in hostilities in the war that we need to manage the rise of other powers in Asia, respecting differences, but also coming up with some, some basics.
And so I actually think while the focus is on defense and the military, Diplomacy is going to be hugely important, uh, especially in the regions. I’m looking at more now, uh, the Middle Eastern Africa, where I think understandings, conflict prevention, shared prosperity are going to be really important. And I think some of the diplomatic tools, uh, respecting differences, acknowledging that we speak, uh, different languages, even if we’re.
Basically speaking, you know, English or Arabic or French or Spanish. Understanding those differences and managing those differences, I think is gonna be important. So, oddly, at the start of 2023, I think diplomacy is needed even more.
I’m gonna give you now
Naji Gehchan: one word and I would love your reaction to it. So the first word is
Phil Budden: leadership. Ah. Essential leadership is essential. Without it, we don’t make progress. And this is not just leadership. For those who are technically in leadership roles, loads of individuals can show leadership in loads of different ways.
What about entrepreneurship? Entrepreneurship is hugely important. It’s not the same as innovation. You can be entrepreneurial with a very low innovation, low tech venture. All of those people who are running corner stores or um, uh, Uh, bread stalls that I saw in Jordan in Egypt, or mum and pop stalls or pizza stores.
That’s a form of entrepreneurship and we should welcome people being brave to be entrepreneurial. We just shouldn’t confuse it with innovation and the real gamechanging changes that we need. The third word is
Naji Gehchan: console.
Phil Budden: Console. I was a console. Um, it means you are operating in a region. You are not the ambassador because the ambassador is the representative to the sovereign country.
Uh, so a console is a form of diplomat and it’s. It was my honor to be a consult for the late, uh, her Majesty the Queen, and it gave me a great opportunity to work with partners across New England, but also realize that I was just one small part of a global diplomatic network. And it was my job to show local leadership, but leadership in support of the wider network’s efforts.
The last word
Naji Gehchan: is thread love in
Phil Budden: organiz. Well, I, I’m British, so, and, and male, so it’s hard for me to talk about this love thing, but I love the initiative that you’ve shown Naji about spreading love because it reminds us that at the end of the day, , it’s about people. You know, we were talking about innovation.
Innovation is more than just technology. Uh, innovation can be of business models or processes and people. And as much as the pandemic had us thinking about technology and being remote and, and it’s great, you know, you and I get to chat and you get to record this, that is lovely, but at the end of the day, it’s about people.
And the diplomat in me thinks it’s about connecting people. And so you need to spread that love and joy and leadership can do. But so could pretty much any member of an organization, some of the most joyful people for me to work with are the ones I stroll in, uh, who greet me at the office and we chat about their lives and, you know, the challenges.
And so I think it’s really important to, to spread love, not least because it reminds us about leadership is about the people.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom felt for leaders
Phil Budden: around the. . Um, it is with considerable modesty that I as a aging white middle class Brit, uh, offer advice in global contexts. Um, but leadership is really important.
Leadership is the only thing that’s really made a difference through history. And it’s not just leaders of countries who are elected or selected. It’s about leaders of companies, leaders of universities, leaders within communities, leaders of families. And so I think leadership is the thing that makes the difference.
So I encourage people to think what kind of leadership could they? Um, respect diversity. Uh, I am an introvert. My leadership is in small bursts, after which I need to recover. Uh, others will be able to show leadership in, in different ways, but be thoughtful about your leadership. Be respectful of the people.
Um, leadership without followership. Is just emptiness. So think about what is AU leadership authentically in your area, and think through to the impact. What, what are you leading towards? What difference are you going to make in the world? Um, how are you gonna make sure that all the right people are involved and that you’re having a positive impact?
Well, thank you
Naji Gehchan: so much Dr. Phil for being with me today. It was an incredible chat. Thanks for being.
Phil Budden: Naji, my pleasure. And I wish you lots, uh, of good luck with spread love. Keep up the good work. Thank you.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to spread love and organization’s podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this podcast joined today by Navin Goyal, a physician and entrepreneur who serves as CEO of LOUD Capital, an early-stage venture capital and alternative investment firm leveraging capital, entrepreneurship, and education to grow impactful companies across the globe. Bringing his physician training to do good for people, Navin strives to make venture capital more purpose-driven, inclusive, and accessible. Before co-founding LOUD Capital, Navin practiced anesthesiology in a large hospital-based setting and was the Medical Director of a community hospital for several years. The beginning of his entrepreneurial journey was co-founding OFFOR Health (formerly SmileMD), a venture-backed mobile healthcare company that expands access to care across the United States with a dedicated focus on lower-income and rural communities. Navin is also author of the book Physician Underdog where he shares more about his story and impact that we will also hear more about today!
Navin – it is such a pleasure to have you with me today.
Navin Goyal: Naji, thank you for having me. I appreciate the kind introduction.
Naji Gehchan: I’m so intrigued by your story from med school to being a clinician and now venture capital. Can you share a little bit more with us about your personal story and what’s in between the lines of this incredible journey of impact you have in healthcare?
Navin Goyal: Yeah, so let’s see if I can do a relatively abridged version. Um, you know, wanted to be a physician, went to med school, became an anesthesiologist, and that was my goal.
And so like many things, when you reach your goal, you’re, you know, uh, it’s great, but it’s not necessarily everlasting. It’s, it’s like, what is the next goal for me? I thought that was it. I was in a great private practice, had great partner. Uh, it was very fulfilled, but over time, um, like many physicians nowadays pretty openly say, you know, there’s a little bit of boredom that happens because you are an expert in your field.
Your learning curve goes a little bit more flat. And we are so used to learning so much information that when that stops, unless you’re doing a lot of other things in your personal life or, um, extracurriculars, um, you still yearn to learn more. And I was no different. I just didn’t know what that looked like.
So I started reading at the age of 30, I started reading books, which my parents told me growing up, read, read, read. I never was that kid. I was like, no, I don’t think I don’t like books. I only will read what I need to for school. So I started leisure reading and the age of 30, I know this sounds funny, um, and I got lost into some fictional stuff, but really got veered into the non-fiction.
Entrepreneurship and inspirational stories about people pursuing a higher purpose, leaving their place of comfort because they felt so strongly about something. During that time, I’m started angel investing, you know, investing in some startups locally here in Columbus, Ohio, where the startup scene was really starting to to heat up, and I got inspired by these entrepreneurs that I was investing in.
So they not only were companies I invested in, they were also now relationships that. Was very curious about, and I was trying to learn as much as I could. So that really opened up the world of entrepreneurship to me. And then in 2014, had the opportunity to start a company with, uh, two other anesthesiologists.
Uh, called SMILE md, which is a mobile anesthesia company. So the anesthesia part, we knew all the business stuff, everything around it. We did not, but it was comfortable enough for us to move forward knowing that there was many unknowns, but we, we had each other. We knew anesthesia and we all figure it out.
And so what I just said is not knowing some things and we will figure it. Is what I have embraced. And I think it’s really hard for us physicians to say that statement and act on it because many of us have followed this rigorous path, but this path was known and by the end of it, you will be an expert if you pass these, if you have some experience, if you do all these things, you will be an expert.
There’s no guarantee in the entrepreneurial world, in fact, most of the world, there’s no guarantees like. So I think it was embracing a little bit of that discomfort, having people encourage each other, learning along the way. And guess what? Now today, the company employs about a hundred people. We’re in several states.
We have insurance companies as clients, and, and, and it’s been nine years, by the way. So this is not something that happened overnight. But how we look at entrepreneurship is we built something that’s now serving kids all over the country. So over 30,000 kids. We’ve, um, done anesthesia on in various practices around the country, and we’re serving kids that were not being served by the hospital or medical systems around.
They’re so backlogged with other types of procedures, so I’ll pause there, but that’s, that’s one way that’s really empowered me in the world of entrepreneurship.
Naji Gehchan: Wow. Thank you so much for sharing this. You know, I, as we chatted a little bit before, I relate so much to what you’re saying also in the entrepreneurial journey.
It’s, it’s funny, it’s kind of, you know, our company we, we founded some while ago is also nine years. Um, and the impact that you’ve done for those 30,000, uh, kids, as you said is, is really so powerful. So it’s not only entrepreneurship, entrepreneurship with impact, and I think this is something that you’re taking now.
In your new venture as, as a c e o of, of loud. So I, I would, I would like to start with this, you know, every, like those two letters. usually create a reaction. You know, I, I won’t say positive or negative, but VC always has a reaction with entrepreneurs. Yep. And you’re leading an early stage venture capital, uh, firm, really focusing on good for people as I read.
So it’s not usually how the VC word I would say is perceived. So I’m really intrigued about your vision. and what are you doing in, in this VC word and
Navin Goyal: how you’re doing it? Yeah, it’s, it’s a, it’s a great question. And so continuing my story, my lens of entrepreneurship started out with building an impactful company.
So I told you we take care of a lot of kids and these kids, um, Are on Medicaid. So these kids have long waits at hospital systems, nine to 12 months, sometimes 24 month wait to get dental extractions. Okay? And so what our company does is we get that done within a month. We get it done in their community and the office that they were diagnosed in, and we get it done without them leaving their community hours away to a medical system waiting months, months, months, even years.
And we get it done. So, We are saving money on the system. We’re saving progression of disease. We’re saving, uh, time. We’re saving discomfort from the families, and we’re making it all work. And it’s actually an alignment of stakeholders. Insurance companies, patients, providers, physicians, you name it, are aligned.
And so what that does is it creates a light bulb moment of, wait a second, you can create something for profit supported by all these stakeholders. That are in alignment while employing great people, working really hard, purp, it’s very purpose driven. We see the results. So wait, wh why don’t we continue to support companies that are doing this?
And so as I was building, uh, SMILE MD and um, really talking about this all the time, so I would go to work. All I could do was talk about it. And I was also an angel investing. You can imagine people are like, Navine, what are you? . Like we’re we’re, we’re at this practice here, but I couldn’t stop talking and thinking about it.
So then people were like, how do I get involved in your world? How do I get exposure to that? I wanna learn some stuff. I want some energy. Wait, I have some capital. How do I invest in this world? So that’s where in 2015 I started a fund. It was more of an angel fund to invest in these types of companies because again, my lens of entrepreneurship.
Impactful driven companies. And by the way, there are companies that are out there that don’t necessarily move the needle on people or productivity or really solving a problem. It’s, let’s say selling a product that’s a little better than this product. And we’re trying to, um, take market share from another company.
Okay. And there’s opportunity to make money off those. And so what clicked for me is like, Hey, I want to make money. I want people to make. , but let’s also feel really good about it. And that’s actually why I sleep well at night because I am supporting and investing in companies that are doing good things for people like our family and our friends, and people I know, and that just feels really good.
So I just consider it a higher standard that traditional venture capital looks at. How can we make money off these companies? My lens is how can we make money off these companies while. Further supporting the people around us. And it sounds really simple maybe, but it’s not. And it doesn’t happen enough.
And that’s where I think VC gets a really. Bad name because there’s a lot of fuel that goes behind companies that really aren’t adding value, and they might make a ton of money or they might go up bankrupt. But either way, there was no value to society outside of maybe some wealthy investors. And so I want investors to be wealthy, but I also want them to know that their money went towards pushing things that they care about for their own families or kids.
Naji Gehchan: I love this. This is so, you’re saying simple, but as you said, I think it’s really complex and obviously the word is not there yet. So I, I’m intrigued by, you talked about obviously the profit side of things. Yeah. So the timeframe I imagine for those type of investment might not be the same. The KPIs you are looking for might not be similar because it.
only about profit. You’re actually looking on impact, actually profit for stakeholders. So I’m interested, like how do you look at these
Navin Goyal: things? Yeah, actually the, we’re not looking at different metrics in the sense of time to exit or acquisition. So if you think about relevant companies today in 2023, people care now about the purpose behind a brand.
They care about who’s behind the brand, what they stand for, more than ever, right? And so, For me, it’s having a culture and leadership and solving a problem that is relevant to me as a consumer or a customer that doesn’t slow down the process of an acquisition. In fact, to me it elevates it. And so what we’ve seen is we have an accelerated, uh, kind of record.
We have a great track record. We’ve had exits. Our first exit came after, uh, a company of four years. And so investors got, you know, capital back and people are happy. Yeah, I, I no longer have to prove anything with just my words. It’s been the action that we’ve taken. And, you know, today also there’s a lot more of, uh, a movement of emerging fund managers.
You know, newer fund managers, even if they’re operationally experienced or have great entrepreneurial backgrounds, they’re now running funds with more of this thesis of impact. Now impact used a lot, but the way I described it deeply into problem solving, deeply into I, I, I believe in servant leadership.
You know, I believe in investing in people who are gonna treat their own people well, not just the problem they’re solving. So it’s like this whole comprehensive model of supporting good companies, good people that employ good people, that serve people. And there’s money to be made and there’s value to be created.
You’re, you’re
Naji Gehchan: touching on so many incredible aspects, you know, it is really this podcast that’s built on this. So I’m, I, I’m really so honored to have you here and talk about this. You talked about culture. You talked about servant leadership, um, and these are things you look at and the company is really based out of purpose, right?
Like purpose driven companies. Yeah. So how do you put all this into perspective and what are the key aspects? I would say when you’re looking at the founding team and you say like, yes, this is a founding team that has those. and you wanna invest in them. Like how, what, what are the key aspects? You’re looking in the founders and what is the culture Yeah.
Navin Goyal: You’re looking for. That’s, that’s great. And, and it’s taken some time over the years to really pin it down to answer this question. Um, and obviously there’s, there’s, there’s chemistry, there’s ability to work with, with a portfolio company cuz when you meet a team or founder, And you decide to move forward after your diligence process, et cetera.
There needs to be a healthy chemistry to say, we can work together. Cuz basically you’re committing to each other for several years at least to say, we’re gonna be working and building this business. And, and by the way, the, the name loud capital came from being loud and active investors. Not silent investors because even people who write large checks, they’re either very busy or they look at this as a, an investment financially, you know, mainly, , I look at it again as holistically as you’re solving a problem, how can we help and, and, you know, knock down some obstacles alongside you.
So our, our team and our culture is very entrepreneurial. Um, and that’s what’s exciting that we, we, we don’t look at it as just an investment business. Um, and so in doing so, there’s, there’s a chemistry. Um, there is a humility that needs to occur. So really, if you think about really, really ambitious, intelligent, and capable people, Right.
If they have all that without humility, then they, their learning journey will not be as great. Uh, they probably won’t attract, um, as many people as they can. They probably won’t attract the right people, I should say. Um, there’s something, that connection that we have in our team, the chemistry, keep talking about, we are attracted to that humility because no matter what we do, our team members, like I have partner.
Hear at Loud that are brilliant. Like they, I, I’m, they inspire me and they teach me so much every day, but they have a humility to them. And I think that is a necessary thing to have in founders and teams. And by the way, there’s been some groups or some teams who we’ve realized don’t have that level of humility and they’ve come into problems because of that.
And sometimes it’s really hard to, to, to pinpoint what it was. But my, you know, after processing a lot of things for a while and we have over 70 portfolio companies now, and, uh, I’ve co-founded three, uh, four now. Um, you just learn a lot and you learn a lot about the people that run into more problems than others.
Now, because of the market, now because of your industry, I really think there’s a level of humility that’s needed to really excel, um, really in life. But I’m talking specifically in this.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks for that. Um, I’d love to learn more about, you know, you’ve been a clinician, you’ve done med school, you told us your story, and now, now in vc, is there kind of a common thread or common learning that you took with you throughout your journey that you would never change, or it’s something that now is part of your signature as a leader?
Navin Goyal: That’s, that’s interesting you say that. I just had a discussion for an hour before this, um, before getting on a call with you. Um, I believe I’m an empowered individual and when I reflect on the things I’ve done and the things I’ve tried and put myself out there, um, I’m empowered and I. . I am privileged to have had that early, and right now I’m trying to figure out how to pass that on more to other people, including my own kids.
I think when you’re an empowered individual, whatever situation you’re in, you have this hat on that says, I’m gonna try to figure this out, and I’m, I’m the one that can do it. I’m not gonna rely on someone, Hey, I can use help. I can ask for help. I can do all these things, but I can. and imagine empowered kids around the world this moment if every kid was empowered.
Um, how really these small things can, you know, largely change the world. Lar largely change what we think of ourselves and what we can do in our capabilities. And even if we fall flat, right? Like, that’s okay. I learned that I’ve fall, I’ve fallen many times, but I feel like the pressure we put on ourselves to not fall.
Is is silly. It should really be the pressure of staying down, right? We’re gonna fall, but don’t put pressure on yourself of, you know, Hey, I just fell. Well, let’s not think about it. Just get up and let’s keep going. So, , I think empowered is the word that has been with me, and I am grateful for it, and it’s taken me a while to really process it.
Uh, but my goal and, and even doing these podcasts, to be frank, is, is to talk so people hear this and feel like they can do it too, whatever they want to do. Small or big.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you, Navine. This is, this is powerful and I think it’s inspiring for, uh, many of, uh, our listeners. I, I would give you now a word and I’d love your reaction to it.
The first one is leadership.
Navin Goyal: Yes. Serving is, is what it, what comes to mind. ,
Naji Gehchan: can you tell us a little bit more how you would define
Navin Goyal: servant leadership? Yeah, yeah, and it’s probably interesting to give the context of that’s a, that’s a changed attitude for me. I thought leader, especially when I was transitioning out of my medical job into running loud capital, I really thought I had to know.
more than everyone else. I had to kind of walk into a meeting and really set the tone. I like. I had this pressure on myself of a leader being more of a top-down approach. Now I look at leadership as it’s really now about me. What I know, it’s really about the people that are in the room, what they know, and trying to aggregate that or accumulate that into.
Common direction. And, and in order to do that, you have to listen more, speak less. You have to be able to accept that more people around the table might run the meeting and talk. And you are sometimes chiming in and learning. You’re constantly learning. So I think, and then the other thing is serving, which, which is going to each individual in your organization or your leadership team if you’re a larger company.
And ensuring that they have all the tools, they are empowered and that they’re being heard so they can be optimized, content and fulfilled. And if they are, that will, that will increase their obviously fulfillment, but productivity, right? They’re at your, let’s say company, then they were, they are optimized and that will optimize their teams under them or around them.
And what that does as a leader, It optimizes you. It fulfills you. It be makes you become more productive. So it doesn’t start with you. It actually ends with you. And so in a line, I’m not the front. I’m the last. That’s why I think about serving.
Naji Gehchan: This is, this is really so great, you know, and as you were talking about it, I’m thinking like this transformation, right?
And when you get to transformational leadership, uh, as, as, as we grow, and I love going back to physician, right? I think mm-hmm. , sometimes as a physician, everyone looks at you and say like, you should know, right? Like, you are making decisions, you’re diagnosing. And suddenly here as a leader, I love how you framed it.
It’s about. Not what you know, but rather what people in the room know and how you’re gonna foster this and empower them to, to a better outcome for, for the company and the group. The second word I have in mind is health equity.
Navin Goyal: Yes. Um, health equity, what comes to mind, um, is the opportunity to be healthy for all.
And so, What I’ve realized is how much of a kind of privileged situation that I’ve grown up in even the hospital system. Um, I’ve seen a lot of variety of cases. It’s a very large hospital system, but what I didn’t know is how many people weren’t able to reach even the hospital system I worked in. And so one of the things that opened my eyes, um, Two is is, is health equity, where when we were building SMILE MD and we’re serving a lot of kids on, on Medicaid, and I would hear about these long waits and at the same time my, my two girls who are now 14 and 12 were young.
Um, I have private insurance and if they, something happened dental wise, I could probably get that done within a week by making a few phone calls because I had private insurance. And I was like, wait a second. What are the parents thinking right now of that child that’s waiting 12 months of this kid being in pain?
And they can’t do this. They can’t do the same thing. They can’t call someone and say, let’s get them in. And so to me that’s what health equity is in a very real practical level. We’ve been in so many, um, meetings where we’re building this company and we have to remind ourselves what we’re doing for these kids.
And I constantly think about my own kids and I’m like, why me as a parent? Why do I have a different avenue and accelerated avenue than other people? And you know, you apply that to so many things. Access to care in general, access to basic fundamental things of, uh, a safe home, nutrition, all these things that, that are contribute to health, mental health.
Um, that’s what health equity means to me. And I’m. Grateful to be able to participate in some of the change, but obviously we need more people and more eyes and more knowledge, uh, that the health equity spectrum is so bad. I can’t
Naji Gehchan: agree more with you. The third word is
Navin Goyal: innovation. Innovation. So it’s kind of a funny word cuz it’s used so much now.
Um.
I would say what comes to mind is fearless, so not having fear of trying something new, not having fear of breaking down a system that’s not serving us or serving the people We initially. Started this system for, um, and not being afraid to listen to everyone, because I feel like sometimes when it comes to innovation, there’s a circle or panel of experts , and who determines that?
We probably do, okay, you’ve done this, you’ve done this. Like for example, there might be someone out there one day that calls me an expert on something. As soon as they plant that label on me, I’m screwed. That’s, that’s not true. Like I’ve learned a lot, but I’m still one person with a bunch of silly ideas.
But, so as a, a 10 year old kid with a bunch of silly ideas, let’s put it on the table and see what sticks and try it out. So, so those are some things that come, uh, to mind with innovation. The last one
Naji Gehchan: is spread glove and organiz.
Navin Goyal: Spread love in organizations. Ugh. I love it. Um, so I believe in leading with love.
And so when we’re talking about, um, the example I gave you where I’m talking to someone in my company and I’m listening and I’m, I’m seeing how can they be better? How can you know, how can they be fulfilled? Like that is love. And if you apply that to everything, to organizations, to people you work with, to your employee, To, to people at home when you come from work that is leading with love, so that that’s what comes to mind.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom, David? For healthcare leaders around the world.
Navin Goyal: Yeah. So I think when we, um, talk about healthcare leaders, we immediately go to the vehicle of clinical and hospital systems. But when we talk about the health of people, right? There’s so many factors there. And I’m gonna give you one example and, um, you know, there was a, uh, a panel I did for a group of college student.
Um, and one of the things, uh, it was a, a great discussion and I was a young lady who came over to me, uh, she was a first or second year in college, and she said, you know, I really love your story. I want to be a doctor. Um, you know, I, I love, just would love some encouragement. And I said, oh, that’s great. I’m like, you know, why do you wanna be a doctor?
And she said, well, I grew up really poor and my parents didn’t have great access to. So I want to be a doctor because I wanna help my family and I wanna help people like my family. And I said, that’s amazing. I’m like, going down the route of becoming a physician is not easy. It takes a long time, but you want to help families like yourself, like what you grew up in.
You know, there’s other ways to help people. Right? What about being an entrepreneur and building companies where you. Uh, deliver services. Take great people in hospital systems and go to your home. Um, improve the quality of, I mean, let’s talk about, you know, wifi, right? The internet and because there’s so many houses that don’t have it, have an electronics to be able to access care, access Telehealth.
Right, so my, my point is there are so many ways to help the health of people. It doesn’t need to be in a clinical vehicle. And so I encourage healthcare leaders to think that way, where if you can get a leadership role that doesn’t necessarily have to do with only clinical, you can positively impact. A more holistic picture, and that’s kind of what I talk about with venture capital and all these other businesses.
It doesn’t have to be clinical and the fact that we went through medical school, or let’s say we’re talking healthcare leaders in general, the fact that you have some clinical background to take care of people, apply that in other vehicles, right? You have that intention, you have some experience. Now expand that application to a much broader, in to much broader industries and corporations and organizations.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Navin, for being with me today and empowering us through your great words and experience. Thanks.
Navin Goyal: Thank you so much for having me.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to spread love and organization’s podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this podcast joined today by Semyon Dukach, Managing Partner at One Way Ventures, the venture capital fund backing exceptional immigrant tech founders who are building great companies like Brex, Momentus Space, and Chipper Cash. Semyon is a refugee from the Soviet Union and formerly the Managing Director of Techstars (Boston). Prior to Techstars, he was a prolific angel investor and a friend of the startup community. Semyon has made over 100 angel investments, including early investments in Quanergy, SMTP.com, and Wanderu. Xconomy lists Semyon as a top angel investor in New England. His philosophy has been to focus on helping his founders at all costs. Prior to becoming a full-time angel, Semyon co-founded several technology companies including Vert and Fast Engines. Fast Engines was sold to Adero in 2000. Beyond startups, Semyon is known for leading one of the MIT blackjack teams in the early 90s to beat the casinos. Semyon earned his B.S. from Columbia University and M.S. from MIT, both in Computer Science.
Semyon – it is such an honor to have you with me today.
Semyon Dukach: Thanks for having me.
Naji Gehchan: We would love first to hear your incredible personal story from immigrating to MIT beating casinos in blackjack and now being a VC focused on impact investing in exceptional tech immigrants. It feels like a full circle, but we’d love to hear more about t from you.
Semyon Dukach: Yeah. You know, I, I started some companies and then I gravitated fairly early in my career towards investing. I realized, Uh, the customers I wanted to serve were the startup entrepreneurs and that I enjoyed being involved in multiple things in parallel, um, and was also fairly good at the, actually making money at it.
Uh, so, uh, I basically started gradually investing, um, more and more of whatever money I had. And as I started doing better as an investor, I had the exits and I rolled it all over. Um, to where, yeah, eventually, uh, maybe, um, 12 or 13 years after I started move, being an investor, I was like one of the most active people, uh, in the part of the world in New England.
But then actually I didn’t just immediately go to the venture fund. I was recruited to run the Techstars, uh, accelerator here in Boston. Um, uh, which at the time was quite early, but it was still already very successful. Had a great track record. It was a much stronger program than other programs like it.
and I was, you know, surprised cuz I’ve never, never had to work within any larger organization. But it was a little bit of a franchise and that, like the Boston group, uh, operated somewhat autonomously at the time. And, um, I took that on. And so that was actually my first kind of semi institutional investing experience we had.
I, I guess I ran four, uh, four groups, um, over three years. Um, A total of about 48 or 50 companies. Um, and those have done well as well. And there I really learned more about like, mentoring not just individuals, but doing groups of CEOs, working with the venture capital investors and connecting, you know, people making it more likely that they can tell a better story and raise money they need.
Um, and, uh, it was a little bit of a public facing role. Now there’s demo days, you know, it’s, it’s a large, large gathering of the whole community, uh, every year. Um, so, you know, it was fun. And that’s when I first dabbled a little bit with, uh, not just taking local companies, but bringing some companies over from Europe.
Um, which had mixed results, I would say. But after doing it for a few years, I, I felt it was a little too comfortable for me. It wasn’t as challenging, you know? Um, I wanted to do something of my own from scratch, something more global or something with a, with a mission and impact that I really cared about.
Cause I think, I think any kind of investing organization like any other startup needs to have some purpose other than how much money it’s gonna make. I think it’s really, it’s a good thing to, to have, it helps motivate your team. It helps keep people, you know, going through the hard times. . Um, and um, ultimately if you really believe in what you’re doing, you’re probably gonna do better than than folks who lack that belief, right?
You’re gonna work harder, you’ll be, you’ll have an easier time recruiting, you’ll have better deal flow. So, ended up, uh, picking this, uh, focus on immigrants because, I mean, I am, uh, an immigrant, or at least my parents were, you know, I was young when I came here. We were refugees. Um, I found most of like, um, most of my friends, but also a large number of the startups I invested in as an angel had immigrant founders.
Anyway. and, um, it just seemed like the right time. I mean, Donald Trump was just elected and, um, there was a bit of a backlash against people coming in. Right. So it, the time seemed right to, to make a stance and to say, you know what, we’re only gonna invest in immigrants cuz immigrants are more likely to build big unicorns than.
People ho born here, right? It’s a very strong filter. When you’ve gone through what you’ve gone through in order to move to another country, learn a cultural language, you know, rebuild your network. It’s predictive of resilience and future success. You’ve gone through more than someone in an equivalent position with an easier path who was already born here.
Um, in a sense, you know, immigration is almost like your first company. It’s like an entrepreneurial thing, right? Like getting yourself re-situated is, is quite a task. Um, and so yeah, we, we built the whole fund around that concept. We raised, I left Techstars, we raised, uh, first 28 million was the first fund, and we invested that and had a bunch of interesting outcomes and were able to raise a second fund that was twice as big as 57.
Um, and we are about halfway through investing that one at this point. So that, that’s what I did today. I, I typically, like the angel phase is long over. I, I don’t write angel checks. I’m full-time capital investor, uh, right now.
Naji Gehchan: Well, thank you so much, Samuel, for share sharing, uh, your story with us. Uh, I I’m gonna double click immediately on the VC impact and specifically for, um, for immigrant exceptional immigrants as you.
You shared a little bit about the philosophy behind it, so I’m interested if you can give a little bit more, uh, your, your words insight, how you ended up really thinking immigrants, and I can relate. Um, you know, I’ve been immigrant couple of times, so, uh, I’d love to get your insights on this. And really when you started and had this idea where you said, I’m gonna move and only invest on immigrant startups and entrepreneurs, Uh, you, you said you had good funds, uh, joining you.
Was it hard for people to believe it? I’m interested in the reaction about this, because you said you went through the stance in a moment of even like some tension, you know, politically or beyond, so I’m interested how you managed to convince people around
Semyon Dukach: it. I, I suspect it was probably easier because the, the people who didn’t.
What the administration were doing felt angry and they felt strongly and they, they, uh, knew that America was built on immigrants really. And what America’s success at attracting people from all over the world is largely, uh, related to, to how, how wealthy and successful America is today. Right. Um, people know that.
And so, They were frustrated and I think it was easier to get their attention. But at the end of the day, like we decided not to make an impact fund for the purpose of helping the people we invest in, right? Like of course we help because that’s what we do as investors. We help the companies, we give ’em money, you give add value, so they pick your money and not someone else’s.
But, um, and because that’s the fun part, but the act, the selection itself, the act of writing the. It’s fundamentally not a philanthropic exercise for us. Like we are not a fund that, uh, invests in people because. They’re under capitalized because they have trouble raising money from others. We’re not there to help people who struggle struggling with fund fundraising.
Right. Uh, on a contrary raising, think, you know, we have our beliefs, we have our passion. We love investing in immigrants. We wanna see a world that’s more open. We ideally want to see that any person, regardless of where, wherever they happen to be born, should be able to like switch their passports at will and join whatever country they want to be a part of.
And all countries should be open to everyone. Uh, I mean, obviously not the people who come and, you know, commit crime or whatnot, but you know, you could, you should be able to police crime the same way for new arrivals. As for existing, uh, people like it. I, I would like to believe. The random paperwork that you happen to have received when you were born is completely outside of your control.
Just like your, your race or gender is outside of your control. And so opportunities should be the same for everybody. And so, you know, we don’t like the idea of asking, uh, whether these tech immigrant founders are good for America because they create a lot of jobs. Just doesn’t interest me at all. Like, I, I, I don’t actually care about the fact.
These immigrants create a lot of jobs for America. I mean, it’s nice. It’s good that the jobs are created, but that’s not an argument for why we should allow them to enter the country. The reason we should allow them to enter the country, in my view, is because we believe in the quality of opportunity. We believe in human rights, and who the hell are we to ask whether the arrival of this person.
Gonna benefit us economically. It’s their right to come and do whatever the hell they want. As long as, you know, they’re not harming as long as they’re building, creating, you know, working like everyone should have the same rights. It shouldn’t matter where you’re born, right? Because that’s outside of your control.
That’s, that’s a core part of what we believe. And then we think globally, of course, in general, uh, we tend to, you know, our companies tend to have offshore development because they have come from a country where they understand the culture and it’s easier for them to set that up. Um, and there’s a lot of other, uh, advantages to it.
Um, but basically we have, you know, with our philosophy, uh, we were able to attract some really top immigrant, uh, talent, uh, like top founder. Uh, became part of our deal flow. Like the people sent us really interesting companies, even the ones, you know, the ones that maybe the immigration experience was some time ago and maybe they’ve already had a successful, uh, outcome and they’re like in hot demand and everybody wants to invest.
And often we get allocation in those rounds because we are the only fund who who is defined around this concept. And, you know, a strong immigrant founders just love, they remember how hard it was for them when they first. They love the idea that, that there’s a fund for immigrants, right? Like that they boldly state that like immigrants aren’t just as good.
They, they like better, they’re significantly better. They’re the single strongest group, right? Uh, for the purpose of determining your probability of building a unicorn, you know, really outside success, which is the only way to get good receiver returns is to invest in those unicorns, right? So, um, it’s, it’s been, you know, a really fun journey.
Um, Uh, you know, I’m sure some luck was involved as always, but, uh, I think, um, I think the mission has been really important. Like our founders are more likely to help each other because they all share this mission. We have a lot of limited partners. We, we didn’t go to institutions. We raised money from like, basically entrepreneurs who had exits, who had money because they sold their companies.
And we have 230 of ’em altogether. Um, . So that’s a pretty strong network of people who, many of whom, if not most of whom are pretty engaged. They wanna meet the founders, you know, they want to like us. They want to get excited about, you know, , high energy, younger people who are super smart, who are changing the world, who are very passionate, like doing something interesting.
Like it’s, it’s really fun to be around, uh, the kind of startup CEOs that could race sizeable rounds, right? Um, so it’s a fun job and it’s a fun community to be a part of. And so that’s, that’s what we do with one.
Naji Gehchan: and with high impact, and I really love how you framed that opportunity should be the same for everybody.
You know, like some would call it the genetic lottery, uh, actually where you get born and how, and, and what you’re trying to bring is really, really this equity or ac at least equitable access, uh, for people to be able to thrive wherever they were.
Semyon Dukach: Yeah, and you don’t do it, but like, just giving the VC check to every immigrant, obviously, like we, we look for extraordinary people who are building large in disruptive businesses.
Most of the companies we invest in, like their competitive rounds, and they could, they could get their money anyway from someone else. Uh, not all, but most of the time. Um, So
Naji Gehchan: I wanna, I wanna double click on this savian, because you, you talked about, uh, obviously, you know, immigrants, the grit. You talked a lot about resilience as an immigrant already, and this is kind of why, why you define those as your top, not top-notch entrepreneur.
Uh, I’m intrigued. What else do you look at and do you look for, in f in founding teams when you are ready to invest, uh, is there any key leadership trades capabilities within the founding team or the lead team of those companies that you really look for to
Semyon Dukach: make your final call? Well, of course, I mean, you know, there’s no shortage of immigrant at startups.
It’s just a, it’s just an initial filter for whether we’re gonna take the meeting, um, or even look at it. Like we don’t take, we only take one out and 50 meetings that come at us, even from immigrant founders. Right. And then we invest in one of 20 of those or whatever. Um, so one of the things we look for, it’s, it’s similar to what other investors look for, the seed.
We have seed investors. It’s usually the second round, like there’s a pre-seed round and then a seed round. Sometimes we do pre-seed. Um, at that stage, the, the CEOs, by far the most important factor, right? Like it needs to be a large market for sure has to be a large opportunity. Uh, hopefully in market that’s, it’s not too, too difficult to, to grow quickly in.
But then, uh, we really. The kind of, uh, leader who has a vision of the future, who has a thesis, has a belief, a strong belief about how to serve their customers, how the world will change, what their customers really need. They care about their customers, and they care about their team. and, uh, they’re able to articulate this belief, like explain it in a way that could make sense.
And, uh, when you challenge them, they listen pretty closely to your questions. They don’t agree with most of what you say, but they, uh, show you how they think. And how they take that stuff that you’re saying into account. Hopefully they, uh, usually they know much more about their business, their space than, than we do.
Just by definition, even the spaces we focus on, we still don’t know as much as a person, you know, spending all their time on one business. . Um, so we have these conversations we look at and then we look at the team, we look at who they’re able to recruit. Like we expect people to, to bring on like incredibly strong talent.
You know, the kind of people who could themselves be c e o and raise money from other VCs. Not the kind of people who just have like high paying jobs, but like really strong people. Um, and that those people wanna follow. This leader just for equity. Um, this usually minimal salaries in the beginning stages, you know, there’s some, but um, so this ability to inspire others right is, is really important.
And the ability to maintain a, a real vision while also like listening to skepticism and. And processing it and under, and like taking it into account, like not having a blind vision where you just don’t really want to hear anything where you think you know it all already. Like you have to be cognizant of what you know and what you don’t know.
So those, those kinds of characteristics. And then sometimes when it’s like a full sea round, sometimes there’s already some revenues, there’s always some customers. Even though there’s no products, no revenues, there has to be customers of course. So we talk to the customers when we are leading around and we, these days, we usually lead, we we wanna speak to the customers and try to understand, you know, how big this could be.
You know, how big a need is it? How many other people in the industry might need it in the way that they do. Uh, just get a sense for, is this gonna be a venture scale story cuz like, at the end of the day, right, like, uh, very few companies actually appropriate for, for significant venture capital. And while I found the small, the model is to, to back unicorns, which usually means that they’re gonna raise very large rounds from other people later.
So we do need it to, to be, you know, Defensible. Like ideally there should be some, some ip, some founder market fit, like the founder in addition to just being great has to be somehow a good fit for what they’re doing for the space that they’re in. Um, yeah, those are some of the, some of the factors look at.
Awesome.
Naji Gehchan: Thanks for that. Uh, I, I’m gonna take you back in time if, if we can talk for a couple of minutes about blackjack. Uh, I, I’m, I’m intrigued and interested. Uh, you know, it might have been like cut off your, one of the first entrepreneurship journey you had and you’ve built company yourself, uh, obviously as, uh, along the way.
Uh, is there like a common thread or key learnings from those experiences that you took with you? as you build companies and as a leader today within your
Semyon Dukach: vc. I mean, of course women Blackjack was my first company. It was also my first fund in a sense, cuz we, it was more like an investment fund, right? We had investors and then players who kind of managed that.
Uh, we had to keep track of stuff. We modeled probabilities, we generated results. Uh, we, we had. Pretty good, you know, returns, it was like around under 50% a year kind of returns in blackjack.
Naji Gehchan: Wow. Can, can you give maybe our audience who don’t know you much, like a little bit of a backstory of the blackjack we’re talking about?
Semyon Dukach: Yeah. I mean, it was the, that was part of this m I T team that figured out how to beat the casinos of the game and made a few million dollars around the world. I ended. Uh, leading one of the two teams who split off into a couple of groups. And I, I was sort of the defacto president of one of those groups.
Um, learned many, many things, uh, that applied to my later, later funds, uh, how to work with people, teams, how to keep people motivated, you know, how to think quantitatively for sure. Like, I think I have a pretty, pretty quantitative way of approaching most decision. For example, when we, usually, when our companies raise later stage rounds, we usually, you know, co-invest for our pro rat rates.
We’ll, you know, either out of fund reserves or we run PVS when it’s larger checks. But even though we usually invest, I always, every, every single time I actually consider selling rather than buying to me, it’s almost, you know, it’s almost like I should be doing rather than other, I rarely wanna maintain my position.
I either wanna buy the sell. So I’m trying to like, uh, be a little bit more, uh, objective and less emotional. , the initial decision is quite emotional cuz you have to decide if you trust the, the founder too. You have to decide, you know, uh, the gut. You often have to listen to a gut. Um, but, uh, over time, you know, uh, thinking Ally is very helpful I think.
And also I think blackjack taught me. You know, very few things are impossible. Like even if conventional wisdom says, you know, you can’t beat the casinos, obviously, like that’s a known fact. Well, we could, we could, if we, if we can prove why we can, if we can write a simulator and show that it could work well, it can actually work no matter what it is.
So when a founder tells me, um, uh, that’s something, you know, they can do something that everyone else says can’t be done, and I have some initial reference calls. , you know, this cannot work. It’s the physics, it’s not gonna work. It’s impossible. It’s bullshit. And then, you know, I’m like, are you sure? Why don’t you, why don’t you actually talk to the founder?
Like, just double check and then turns out that there is a way. Um, so just thinking that, that this first principles kind of thinking nothing is impossible unless you can prove it’s impossible, right? Actually the master will prove, um, and I’m sure many other things, um, Uh, we even had investors like it was a fund in the sense that there were investors who were just investing.
There were people who managed it. There were people who actually played. So it had all those attributes. And, um, yeah, I think, uh, what it didn’t have, like, it didn’t really create value. Like we, it was more of an arbitrage. Like, we beat money, we beat the casinos for money, and we spent the money and like it was our, like, we didn’t.
The casinos never thanked us for meeting them, right? We didn’t have customers for whom we created value, so we were more like, like traders or like some kind of hedge fund in or whatever in that sense than than tech investors. So it’s much more gratifying, of course to invest in companies where you can actually help ’em with advice.
So connections and whatnot, and you feel their gratitude and you feel a little bit. Of the responsibility for their success. Of course, 99% of it lies with the, with the team and not the investor. But still, um, you can make a meaningful impact sometimes, and that’s a very good feeling. Um, but yeah, it was my first, uh, my first company and my first fund.
And then, you know, I’ve done okay with my companies. I had like a pretty reasonable exit that got me started in invest. But, uh, I did way better as an investor than end of the day. And, uh, you know, basically when you all on all like 15 years of Angel, I was doing like, I dunno, 35, 30 8% per year returns in terms of actual exits, you know, like cash and cash returns, which for a long period of time, you know, was difficult to pull off.
And so far with Techstars, with the, with one way, I believe I’m maintaining that rough level, which, you know, it’s challenging. You can’t, you can’t take that for granted. Evaluations go up like crazy. Now you have wonder if it’s gonna work anymore. Well, now I’ve gone back down. So that concern is out of the way.
But, um, you know, it’s an, it’s more of an art in the science for sure. The venture capital. It’s a, it’s a craft and it does, I have to say, I got, I think I got pretty lucky a few times in the beginning because, um, it, it takes years and years to really know if you’re doing the right thing. Like, cuz the company can take, uh, more than a decade to actually.
Generate true value. Like there’s early indications, they might raise a bunch of money from someone else, but that could just be a fad. And you know, you only really know when you return capital to your investors or to yourself if you’re an angel. And that’s just with that delay, you sort of. You know, you gotta lose for 20 or 30 years to have a couple of cycles of feedback really.
So, I mean, I, I know some people are natural, some people are younger and they’re still able to have this amazing, uh, sense for it. Um, but generally it’s, uh, It’s a very long, it’s a long game. And building a venture capital brand, like one way, you know, it’s not, it’s not like a lifestyle kind of fund that’s like, me and my partners wanna run it, and then it’ll land when we get old.
That it’s really important to me that it succeeds, that it grows, that it becomes like a globally, like well known strong fund. Because I, I want, I want people to know that by investing in, I. we got, we were able to build a large fund, have above market returns because I think that could be an argument in, in discourse everywhere about, uh, how open should borders be about how welcoming countries should be, uh, to others, right?
Like, uh, I want our success in and of itself to, to, to make, uh, potentially apolitical point. Um, but yeah, meanwhile we are just focusing on, of course, generating the best possible returns for our investors and, you know, investing in, in the very, very, very best immigrants and not, not necessarily the ones who need our help, but also like, I guess I mentioned that a couple times now.
So I do wanna say that, uh, there’s a place in life for, for, for like helping people who need help. Specifically. Venture capital is not it, in my view. Um, I. Do have a, um, charitable foundation that, um, I’m a part of that, I’m on the board of that. My wife actually runs full-time and right now it’s focused on refugees, uh, outta Ukraine.
but in general, it’s gonna be refugees. I think in other parts of the world, people who fled from wars and, you know, people like that, they need help. You know, we don’t invest on them. You, you just give them money and, um, hopefully not for too long so they can get back on their feet. But, but there’s, there’s an aspect, there’s a place in the world for, for just philanthropy and, and helping people who need a hand.
And sometimes immigrants do need an extra hand, but one way ventures isn’t that it isn’t. Yeah. Well
Naji Gehchan: thanks for kind of separating and really differentiating both and, and what you’re doing with your, uh, VC and investment fund is really also, I, I love how you’re framing it towards this bigger purpose of, of really showing the word, this purpose that you have on, on immigration.
Um, and I love your leadership, how you’ve put things. Into contrast like quant, but also some, you know, gut taking decision, uh, some luck leadership vision, but also like going with the flow. You talked a lot about your, so it’s really great learning and I’ll, I’ll give you now one word and I would love actually your reaction to it.
And the first one
Semyon Dukach: is leadership.
Um, leader. Well, uh,
effective leader, someone who inspires people to be better than they otherwise would be. You know, the people want to follow a leader because following that person makes them be better people. Right? Um, people want us inspiration. Um,
I mean, a leader has to have strong views. They have to have vision, and they have to listen to the people. So for following them and stay in tune with ’em. And not lose them. What about equity?
Equity? Uh, like as in, in, in companies and, or you mean like equity, like fairness or equity? Like equity, like fair. , like kind of equity? Um, I think there should be equity of opportunity. I think people should, uh, be, shouldn’t be limited, uh, from doing whatever they can effectively achieve. They should be judged based on their.
They’re their results. Um, you know, there’s obviously other fault, prejudices of in the world, and generally I feel that, um, you know, we need to overcome them by, by letting people do what they want, not, uh, and not necessarily in other ways. Um, , you know, I’ve already spoken about, about borders. Uh, of course you have to come in peace, you know, having been very involved with the war in Ukraine.
The last thing I wanna suggest is that like Ukraine not have any borders. You know, with Russia, like clearly they need much stronger borders, but like much bigger walls, uh, you know, people are gonna come in and roll their tanks in and, and, you know, rape and murder people. But, um, but as long as people. Um, want to, uh, you know, interact peacefully, interact in a way, uh, that benefits everybody.
That’s, that’s based on freedom and, you know, voluntary contracts. Um, I really think everything should be, should be open. Um, And as far as equity, uh, the other equity, I don’t know. You didn’t ask about that one, but you know,
Naji Gehchan: as I was asking, I was sure your VC mind will, will go into equity, so I’d love to hear your thoughts
Semyon Dukach: also on it.
equity versus death. I mean, I think. . Um, the best part about when work, when it works well, the Capitalist Society allows for easy formation of new businesses and people who work with big companies and don’t really own them, they just get cash bonuses or whatever. At some point. There’s nothing like owning something, nothing like being ultimately responsible for success and getting the full benefit from its success.
it’s very motivating. I think generally people, uh, do best when they act as owners of whatever it is that they’re involved with. So I, I certainly believe that new companies should spread that ownership broadly, that like probably ev every serious employer of, of a company should have some equity, some stock options, some way to, to benefit from, from the real upside.
I think it’s very important. . The third
Naji Gehchan: one is Breaking
Semyon Dukach: Vegas.
Breaking Vegas. Well, I don’t know if we actually really broke it. You know, I think we just nibbled the edges a little bit. You know, I mean, we won a few million bucks, but like they make billions every year. Like it wasn’t that big a deal. Of course they hated us cuz they, it humiliates them to think that someone can actually beat.
But, um, did,
Naji Gehchan: did they do a good job relating it in the movie
Semyon Dukach: for you? No, the movie was, the Kevin Spacey movie was quite fictionalized, but there’s, uh, not other films in the history channel that are more accurate. But even the Kevin Spacey movie, well, the characters have all changed. You know, it captures the essence of what it felt like for.
It definitely captures, you know, the sense that we are doing impossible. We are a team, we are the good guys, they’re the bad guys. Like all of that was definitely part of it and I’m really glad I did it. It was an interesting experience. I. Kind of regret spending three or four years on it. I think it’s would’ve been a better three or four months experience in my life.
Just cuz you know, it was cool, it was neat, I learned something. But there’s more interesting things to do in the world, like built tremendous value for your customers, uh, than just, uh, you know, proof, proof that you was smarter than a bunch of casino people who are particularly smart, right? Like, yeah.
Naji Gehchan: And, and the team, like follow up question on this, I, the team has all ended up being successful entrepreneurs, right? Like there’s always this entrepreneurial spread within what
Semyon Dukach: you’ve been doing as a team. I, I wouldn’t say all of ’em, uh, but people are in different walks of life. You know, one woman is a tenure professor, one, a couple of people are still playing or whatever, like, but the, the number of like very, very successful entrepreneurs that came out of the team.
Is impressive. Like I’m not the most successful person that, you know, I’ve done really well, but like there’s people who’ve done better. Uh, there’s people like John Husick who started some very, very large successful companies like SolidWorks, like I don’t know Chen. There’s a few of these people who just built really big businesses.
Um, but I think, I don’t think any of ’em are really regret doing blackjack. I think they all felt like they learned a lot and had fun and, you know, it was teamwork. So. .
Naji Gehchan: Uh, and the last one is, uh, spread love in
Semyon Dukach: organizations.
No love makes the world go around. Uh, you know, uh, yeah. Organizations are to consist of like, you know, ties between people who deeply care about each other, who, who, um, you know, bond. Not indifferent if people shouldn’t be totally formal. I mean, yeah, you can keep your, your friends social circle separate from your work circle if you want.
But, but the work circle should also have, have, you know, real emotional, personal meaning to you should, you shouldn’t be indifferent to the people with when you spend much of your life, uh, and you got a love your customers, I mean, you’re not gonna really ever get anywhere if you don’t love your customers. They can feel.
Naji Gehchan: Any final word of wisdom for leaders around the world?
Semyon Dukach: The leaders don’t need any of my wisdom and the people who, who are hoping to get my wisdom to become leaders are unlikely to, to transform themselves into leaders. I think some of it just comes from then, um, I mean, there’s obvious advice. Like, you know, you don’t want the, the, in the, in the military, the, the leader is in the front, not in the back.
Right? Like the leader, the leader leads and, and inspires and does, doesn’t just stand behind and tell people what to do. But I think those, those little cliches at this point, um, so, you know, I think you have. Figure out what’s important to you and what you believe in and sort of run with it and, and sometimes the leadership just naturally happens.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much, Semyon, for being with me today and for this incredible chat.
Semyon Dukach: You’re welcome. It was nice being here. Thank you.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to spread love and organization’s podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this podcast joined today by Dave Noesges a retired pharmaceutical executive with Eli Lilly, where he spent 31 years in sales, marketing and general management roles in the US and abroad. He spent much of his career leading sales organizations in both the Neuroscience and Diabetes therapeutic areas. His last role was to lead the Lilly Diabetes sales teams of nearly 2,000 people as Lilly reestablished market leadership in diabetes over a 10- year period, and launched several best in class medicines. Dave is a 1984 graduate of the United States Military Academy and served 5 years as a combat engineer in the US Army, most of that time in West Germany. After the Army, he attended the Wharton School of Business where he graduated in 1991, joining Lilly immediately thereafter. Dave has been married for 35 years and has two grown children. He devotes his time now to caring for his 90 year-old father, spending as much time as possible with his wife and daughters and engages in many charitable endeavors through his church. He and his wife also travel extensively working on a long bucket list of international destinations.
Dave – it is such a pleasure to have you with me today.
Dave Noesges: Thank you, Naji. It’s great to be here with you and kind of get reacquainted, uh, from our lily time together. .
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. I I wanted to start, uh, first by this, I’m biased here in this discussion as I had the privilege to be in your team, Dave, uh, in the US and really see the incredible impacts you have as a leader and the culture you’ve built.
Uh, so before going there and how you’ve, you’ve done, you’ve done the sculpture. Uh, I would really love to hear more about your personal story from serving in the US Army to business school and then pharma. Uh, what can you tell us a little bit more about this inspiring journey and how you ended up leading large teams in the pharma organization?
Dave Noesges: Sure. You know, it’s, um, probably like many of us, um, um, so much of who I am as a result of, uh, my family upbringing and my background. And I, I think it’s, um, um, both the, the, the strengths and the development area is probably a result of that. But I, I grew up really in, in a. Family of fairly humble means. My dad was, uh, the first in, um, and only person in his generation to be a college graduate.
And so it was a very blue collar environment. Almost everybody I knew was, um, in the family and friends and kind of the, my parents’ social circle were, um, um, steelworkers and working and working class people. And uh, um, and, uh, you know, my dad was a bit of an outlier. Every, everybody else, the college graduates I knew were all teachers as my dad was.
And so that was kind of, The environment I grew up in, and it was, um, uh, a very family oriented environment. It was kind of small town America in a, in a steel town in northwest Indiana. And, um, um, you know, people looked out for one another. It was a very strong community. Um, um, it was a very Christian-based community, and certainly that’s a big part of, um, uh, of what motivates me and guides me.
My faith is very important to me. It was to my parents. Um, but I, I, I think it. My parents taught me more than perhaps any other attribute, the importance of humility. And, uh, and, you know, we can talk some more about that as to how I, it’s influenced me and how I think about leadership. But, um, you know, I like to say, especially my mom was always proud of me, but never impressed because the only things that ever impressed my parents were if I was a good father and a good husband, and, uh, uh, and taking care of the things that were really important.
They were intrigued by, uh, My ambition and, uh, my, um, um, competitiveness from my career standpoint, but it wasn’t, uh, uh, wasn’t who they are and what was most important. Uh, and then, then I think, um, so that’s the background. So you said that doesn’t sound like somebody who’s, uh, with that background that’s gonna be ambitious and wanna grow and take on leadership roles.
That’s where I think West Point really began to, to shape me. And, um, um, I, you know, I saw. A big world out there with lots of opportunity and so much that I could do, and to be able to live overseas and to be on the east coast in college and to be probably the first person in my high school to have gone to West Point.
And so all, all of that kind of opened my eyes to all this opportunity that I wanted to be a part of. It just was exciting to me. And, uh, um, but I, west Point also was foundational to me in terms of, um, my leadership journey and, uh, I think that, You know, there’s probably a lot of baggage, especially in the business world about what comes with military leadership.
It’s seen as very, um, uh, very structured and top down and, uh, and there’s some truth to that. And then, you know, this, it goes back, um, almost 40 years when I went to West Point. So it was a, you know, it was a different generation and, uh, there was kind of a, a bit of chauvinistic kind of approach to leadership.
But, um, but when you. When you really, uh, immerse yourself in leadership as, and West Point was trying to transition at that time and what they were teaching, the, probably the fundamental, uh, principle that I took away was, uh, one of leading by example. Um, the best military leaders in spite of the command and control mindset in that, um, put their soldiers first.
Um, You know, it was kind of, um, drilled into us from our early days that the leaders eat last. And if you’re in the field or you’re in the most difficult circumstances, you feed everyone. You take care of everyone before you take care of yourself, which is probably not what people think of the military.
But, um, you know, when you’re preparing people to, to lead folks in combat, which I never had the. Fortunately, never had to do. It’s, uh, um, you know, the command and control starts to, you want the discipline, but people aren’t gonna follow a leader into dangerous space unless they really trust them. They think that you have their best interest at heart.
And so those were the most important things that I took away, um, from, uh, my experience, uh, at West Point. And I, I think over time, Came to learn some of the blind spots that military leaders had. We, um, um, it could be very structured. We kind of looked for a leadership model that looked like ourselves. And, you know, I, I think my time in business school started to open my eyes to, um, uh, to very different constructs of leadership that, uh, made me kind of rethink as there, you know, what probably was a kinda single-minded approach to leadership in the military that I needed to open my mind to, and that began to help me evolve.
But, um, uh, maybe one of the most important parts of my leadership journey though, was to meet my, uh, my, uh, now wife of, uh, of 35 years. We met in West Germany. She was a, an American expat working in the airline industry for twa. And then, and, uh, Just a completely different perspective on, uh, on, uh, she, she was my mentor in the business world.
She’s the one that suggested business goal to me. She was the one that helped me to figure out how to, how to adapt my military leadership in a business environment and to probably soften the rough edges a little bit. And that was a really important part too. But I, I think those are the, probably some of the milestones before I got to Lilly that really shaped who I am and how I think about leadership.
Uh,
Naji Gehchan: thank you so much Dave for sharing this and it’s, um, it’s already profound things that you shared that we will dig a little bit more into, uh, as we discussed. Uh, I would love to know why pharma. and how you started and you ended up staying for, for all your career in the
Dave Noesges: pharma world. Yeah, it’s a really, everybody asked me that Cause it’s not logical at, at, uh, first glance.
I mean, I was an engineer by training and a combat engineer. I was a civil engineer and you know, it, it. Um, um, and a lot of the career advisors when I was getting out of the military were suggesting that sales is, and marketing was not the right space for you to do something in operations. And, you know, that’s what a lot of my peers and colleagues did.
But, um, I, um, I didn’t know what I wanted to do. I knew that I wanted to, um, uh, you know, I had learned in my time in the military. I, I, I really, um, um, Leadership opportunities and having a team, uh, was really important to, to, um, to, uh, what motivated me and inspired me. But, uh, you know, how I was gonna accomplish that, uh, outside of the military, I mean, I knew nothing about the civilian world.
I, I didn’t, uh, understand how businesses worked. I hadn’t had a single business course at West Point. I had lots of other yeah, courses, but, uh, uh, you know, I didn’t understand the profit motive. I just didn’t know what the opportunities were. And that’s where Mimi, my wife, really guided me. Business school is a good place to ex where you could explore that, where you could figure out what you wanted to do.
And as I got to business school and started to see the opportunities, um, you know, I, being at Wharton, which is a finance institution and a lot of ties to Wall Street there, um, uh, there and, and Wall Street has, has. Had a strong pull for mil former military talent. I think they got part of it because it can make you cannon fodder.
You can, these are people that are used to uh, uh, sacrifice and hard work and long hours and doing whatever you’re told. Wall Street culture and uh, and I was intrigued by. Wall Street opportunities. But, um, I realized though, as I was exploring those opportunities that I just couldn’t get excited about.
And as important as Wall Street is, and I, I’m a capitalist, but I just couldn’t get excited about what, to me seemed, at its essence is buying and selling money. It just wasn’t, uh, the purpose I wanted. And I realized that what I was going to miss from my time in the military, uh, , uh, was the purpose driven culture.
We had a clear mission. It was important. We believed in it, we could all rally behind it, and I needed to to find that. And it was, um, probably, certainly somewhat cer serendipity that I found in the pharmaceutical industry. But I started to explore that because I thought that’s something I could get excited about.
Um, Breakthroughs that are gonna save lives and change lives. And, um, the serendipity was just that I happened, there happened to be a recruiter, uh, coming on campus for the summer internships at Lilly, who’s, uh, I learned later her dad was a retired, uh, colonel in the Army. And so my, uh, resume caught her attention in a way that it probably wouldn’t have most others.
And, uh, she encouraged me to think about Lily. I didn’t, you know, even though I’d grown up in northwest Indiana, I didn’t know much about Lily. And so I. Planning to come back home. My wife’s from Philadelphia. We figured our life would be on the East Coast. And, uh, but I came for a summer internship and I, I, it, uh, I knew this was, Lilly was where I wanted to be because I, I felt like every person I met believed in the mission.
They believed in what we were doing at Lilly. Uh, they were good people trying to make a difference in people’s lives. And that was really important to me. If I was gonna, um, you know, hopefully someday be a leader, was to have a mission that I could really get behind and. , and this is,
Naji Gehchan: uh, this is exactly what we do right?
In the healthcare and biopharma industry. Yes. And why I wake up every morning and you’ve touched so many lives by, by doing what you do with your teams. Uh, Dave, uh, so, and you have led team in different geographies, large organizations. Uh, as I shared la the latest team was more than 2000 people across the us.
Uh, what, what has been your recipe? for leading successfully, and I should say consistently high performing teams.
Dave Noesges: Well, I, you know, I, I, um, have reflected a lot on my leadership principles and what I think is really important, and I, I think that. I mentioned this from my West Point background. I think what is foundational to being able to be a successful leader is to have a, um, a, a belief in, but also to walk the talk around leading by example.
I, I think that, um, we spend way too much time as leaders talk, talking about what needs to happen and what our communication’s gonna be and, and not enough time about, um, How are we gonna lead from the front? How are we gonna show people, how are we gonna teach? How are we gonna, um, live the, um, um, the standards that we were ex expressing people to have?
So I, I think it’s really important to have a, a clear vision, uh, clear direction. I, I believe in, um, clear standards and accountability. But, um, um, but most important in that is that, um, the people who. who, who hopefully are gonna trust your leadership, know that, um, you’re not gonna ask them to do anything that you don’t do first, and you don’t step up from the front.
And it’s, you know, it’s probably cliche, but I, I really believe that, um, um, you know, leaders need to, to internalize and take the blame, but give the credit, uh, externally and to mean that when you do it. And, and that’s probably foundational. Uh, um, I also am not, I think that, um, one of my early. Earliest in lingering leadership learnings was, um, um, That I needed to be more humble and, uh, I think I’m generally a humble person, but the leadership construct, especially 20 or 25 years ago in the business world, was very much, um, confident leaders, strong.
That was the military ethos. And the, uh, extreme of that though is that you believe you have to have all the answers and you need to project that. And, um, you know, I found over time, and it sounds silly when in h. But, um, if I thought I had all the answers, I was the only person in the room that I thought I had all the answers, and I can stifle others kind of coming forward and stepping forward.
You have to admit ex mistakes. You have to be willing to, um, to admit to the people working for you that I don’t have the answer. And, and sometimes to say that I, I, I tru I believe you have the have, are more likely to have the answer, to have the innovation than I am because I know you and I know what you bring out and to pull that outta people.
But, um, you have to be humble to do. Uh, and, uh, exude that humility, I think. And, um, if you do, I people will rally behind you. Uh, uh, and I think that what many of us as leaders are afraid of is if we show humility and we kind of show our weakness and, and what we’re not good at, that people won’t trust us as leaders.
I don’t think that’s the case at all. Not have that has to be coupled, but confidence. But I, I think that’s the. Recipe for success, uh, for a leader is humility and confidence. Uh, I think more often than not run together. You show me a, a, um, an arrogant leader, and I’ll show you somebody who, um, uh, if you really get to know them, they have some deep-seated insecurities and the, the arrogance is trying to compensate for that.
And so I think humility. And then the last thing that. I think it’s really important if you’re gonna rally people behind you as you, you have to know them and you have to be able to help tie, um, their motivations and their beliefs to the broader organizational purpose. And that means you’ve gotta get really close to people.
You’ve gotta disclose to them, you’ve gotta open it up by. You know, back again to my early years of leadership, I got a, the worst advice I got from a lot of leaders in that generation where you can’t get too close to your people. You need to be able to hold ’em accountable and fire, and fire. And, um, and it created a leadership construct of distance between leader and people.
And, uh, I think that’s just exactly wrong. I, I do, there’s. You’re too close to your people. If you can’t make a tough decision and make a tough business decision, you can’t, um, um, that can include downsizing and, and hiring and firing and making those decisions, but, uh, as long as you, um, Can make the tough calls on behalf of the business.
I don’t think you can ever be, uh, um, I don’t think you can ever be, uh, too, too close, uh, to, uh, to your people and, uh, um, and, uh, um, you know, they’ll draw the line. There’s a place where everybody has, wants to be private and don’t want you involved, and I think you have to stop as a leader there and accept that.
And, uh, but up to that point, uh, we, uh, um, and we’re getting better in the business world and we’re comfortable with that. Uh, and I, I think it’s just so important. You, you
Naji Gehchan: really gave three key recipes, uh, living the standards that transfer people to have humility and confidence and get close to your people.
And as you were sharing, I’m, I’m intrigued to get more into how did this, how did you transform as a leader towards this? Because as you said, Military leadership potentially is different. Also, leading was kind of command and control top down, right? Like, it was not this type of organization we talk about today, like more, uh, you know, more inclusive, more degraded.
Mm-hmm. . So I, I’m intrigued as you grew, because there is some leaders still leading in command and control. They believe this, they believe leadership by fear. and you potentially came from this and totally transformed into servant leadership and leading with care and with love for people to deliver on the purpose.
So I’m, I’m really intrigued. Like, is there a story or an experience behind why you changed? How, how did, how did this happen? Yeah. It’s,
Dave Noesges: um, I’ve reflected a lot on this and I, I think there were three events that. That, and I won’t go into too much detail, but, uh, I’ll briefly describe that we’re really foundational and really kind of, um, caused me to, um, reflect more and to think more and to be open to growth in this area.
Um, and then a lot of it’s just incremental after that it’s experience. But the first one was, um, my first, um, Leadership role. I was a first line supervisor with 12 salespeople and an oncology Yep. District manager position. And I was going through that annual review process and um, I had a young woman who was about as different from me as, uh, somebody could possibly be who was on my team, but she was very confident.
She was, um, she’s what people would’ve described as a punk rocker in terms of her look. And she liked that kind of, From that time, and that was something that I could not relate to at all. But she was a great salesperson. Better than I could ever hope to be, I think. But we, I’d finished her performance review and she was really a good performer.
And at the end of that, I kinda asked what used to be the throwaway question, do you have any feedback for me? And especially in those days at Lilly, people tended to say, oh, I’m so lucky, so lucky to have you as a coach and , and it was kinda a formality and, and she said to me, there is one thing that I wanted to share with you.
And she said, I don’t, I know this isn’t your intent, but you are more comfortable with the men on the team than the women on the team. And it makes us feel excluded. And, um, and it’s mostly in a social setting. At dinner, you’re comfortable talking to the guys and that’s who, where your background is and, and, uh, um, I was devastated by the feedback, um, because it’s not who I wanted to be and half of my team were women.
And, uh, um, I went home and told my wife I got the feedback and she kinda laughed and said, well, yeah, no kidding. Duh, you up in the military yet. I mean, in the military it was a combat unit. At that time there were no women, so I had never led women, I hadn’t interacted with a lot of women in my professional life, and I had a huge blind spot.
Had she not shared with me, I never, I, you know, I, I look back on that sometimes and say, what, where would I be now? And I not gotten that feedback. I think that’s the single most important feedback anyone has ever given me, uh, in my professional life. And it, it, um, It’s not who I wanted to be, and it, it just opened my eyes to a blind spot.
And, and then I started to explore what, what my i, my other blind spots be and, um, and how can I grow from there? That was the first thing. The second thing was, it was the early days of Lilly trying to, uh, um, to be serious about diversity and inclusion, and we had started an African American foreign forum for our African American employees, and I, I was.
Invited by, uh, a colleague in Pier who was, uh, who was African American to come in. I was one of the first, uh, I think, and I was in middle management at the time, one of the first kind of white leaders to go to the forum because it started out as kind of a form of African Americans talking about how do we thrive at Lilly And um, It was a very uncomfortable experience because I was immersed for the first time in my life, probably in a culture that was different from mine, and I was the minority, at least in for a snapshot in time.
And, uh, um, I, I, I went, uh, every year after that for probably 25 years at Lilly to the African American Forum and just decided and realized then how much, if you wanna be an inclusive leader, you’ve gotta immerse yourself in. In other people’s world as much as you can to understand them and to be uncomfortable and ask uncomfortable questions that sometime are inadvertently offensive because you’re trying to understand and they will give you a lot of grace.
And it, um, uh, it gave me courage to say, I gotta try this again. And I’ve gotta get more comfortable and, and, uh, and learn and to, and to, to realize how much that must be getting in the way of me being able to connect with people and to be a leader. But, uh, the last thing was, After my first daughter was born, I had, um, Lily was reading this book called The One Minute Manager, which was, uh, the, I don’t know if you’ve ever read it, Naji, but it’s, it was an old throwaway book, but it was a guy who used these simple little anecdotes to talk about what coaching should be and how we’re getting it wrong in corporate America, but.
The one that got my attention because I had a young daughter, was he had this, uh, analogy that he shared about, uh, his, his assertion was that we are all at our very best, generally as coaches, uh, uh, in, in how we, uh, how we raise our children. And the best example of that, he said of what we should do, uh, whether you’re a parent or not, you think you can relate to this, is the experience of a child learning to take their first steps.
And it just had a profound impact on me and, and every instinct. Almost every parent, unless you’re just an awful parent or, uh, a cousin or an aunt or an uncle, or anyone else, when you see a kid, take that first step is to, uh, is to celebrate the victory, to be wildly enthusiastic. Um, and if, if you think about it in the context of, um, coaching in a corporate environment, those first steps are clumsy.
They’re, they usually end up in failure. They fall over and they land on their face and they wanna cry and they look up to see how mom and dad, uh, are reacting and. Almost in every case, a young child like that gets re positive reinforcement that says, oh, you’re the most special person in the world because you’re learning to walk.
And uh, and it has a profoundly positive impact, impact on a child’s, um, uh, confidence, uh, their wellbeing, uh, their self-confidence, and. You know, most kids who don’t have that environment, they’re going to learn to walk anyway because we’re pretty resilient, uh, as human beings. But I, it, it caused me to pause and think about a, a leadership construct that was pretty prevalent at that time and still lingers, I think.
And we spent an awful lot of time as leaders in corporate America. Criticizing people for their mistakes, fixing what’s broken, um, making sure they know that they got this wrong and they need to get better and they need to raise their standards. Um, and, you know, I, it’s, um, um, raising children. I mean, you know this n naji, you’ve got young children as well.
Um, you have very high expectations for your kids, probably higher than you have for just about anyone else because you love them. But it comes. Positive reinforcement and care and compassion and wanting them to do better. And, uh, it, it really caused me to realize how much that wasn’t what I was doing, and I needed to do more of that.
And I, I think I’ve gotten better and better at that, at realizing that this isn’t a Pollyanna, you need to be a cheerleader. You still hold people to a high standard. But, um, the vast majority of people who work with us, Are trying to be successful. They’re trying to deliver on the mission. They care a lot and, uh, uh, it makes no sense at all to spend so much time trying to fix what’s broken in them, but rather to take what they’re doing well and encourage them and, and help them believe that they can do more.
And so I, I think that that, uh, was really an important, uh, insight for me. That’s, uh, that’s guided me for the rest of my, uh, leadership.
Naji Gehchan: Those are incredible stories Dave. Thanks for sharing them. It’s, and it’s powerful and I can atest because I lift this leadership when I was, when I was in your team. And again, I think it shows really those stories shows your humidity, uh, and also your vulnerability.
Accepting them, living them, and, and transforming. So, thank you. My, my other questions was on something you really touched heavily on in those examples, which is diversity, equity, inclusion. Mm-hmm. , uh, I know you’re passionate about this. Uh, you’ve done a huge, uh, strives to, to make changes that matter. You know, not only leading by example, you led by example and you made sure.
Each of us is making, uh, you know, those moves for a more equitable, uh, teams internally and externally. Uh, and, and you, you’ve done it obviously across talent management across a very large organization. So I’m interested to know how did you make sure you create this caring culture throughout your leadership team and also across the all organization that I can say at some point became a community.
Really a community where we cared for one another and we had the sense of belonging. How, how did you do this and how did you make sure that it’s lived throughout the years you were there?
Dave Noesges: Yeah, it’s a good question. Naji and I, I think that, um, it’s, um, it starts with, um, real accountability. I think when I, when I, um, um, really got serious about having a more diverse and more equitable and inclusive organization, I, I think that the foundational step is to be very clear that, um, you’re going to build the diverse organization that we’re gonna break down barriers to that, um, If somebody claims they don’t have a blind spot or that, that, that we don’t have an unlevel playing field, that um, you know, I’m gonna show ’em the statistics that suggests otherwise and we’re not gonna accept that.
And it’s just, uh, there was a pretty kind of tough, clear accountability. And, um, when I really started with my team, uh, especially in the diabetes organization on this journey, it started. Um, with data that showed that we were falling short, that showed that, you know, minorities and others were, um, uh, were falling behind and were having the same level of success.
And even going back to, to look at resumes and say they had the same credentials, the same, uh, uh, they should be doing as well. And there’s the, if we’ve gotta look in the mirror and say we’re not doing well enough, but then to establish very. Milestones and accountability and to treat it, um, not like a kind of soft and squishy people issue, which is what we sometimes do in a corporation.
But, um, this is a business accountability and, uh, uh, and so that was the most important first step, I think. Uh, but I, I think you can only get to, uh, An equitable and inclusive organization if you, uh, uh, if you improve your representation, and it gets to the point where it really, where the, the leadership team looks like the, the, the population of people who are, uh, reporting to us and looks like the communities that, uh, in our case, in sales that we’re interacting with.
And so you’ve gotta get the representation right first. Um, but then you have to explicitly hold leaders accountable to, uh, And to measure it. And you know, I think we’ve had some good systems at Lilly that weren’t mine that I applied though that, um, uh, 360 feedback and concepts that are, you know, everybody tries to use, but you have to make it real.
It’s, uh, and you have to avoid, the temptation is very strong to, uh, forgive a leader who’s not very, Who delivers a couple of years of over, over, uh, uh, performance and kinda squeezes the results out of people, you know, they’re not gonna sustain that. But it’s, uh, it’s very easy for a company to reward that.
And then you lose credibility. And so you have to not accept that. And it means that you’re gonna, in some cases, uh, um, Not promote someone who’s got delivered great business results cuz they’re not developing people and they don’t have a, a track record. A track record of talent development. You’ve gotta couple it with that.
And so I, I think it um, um, and one of the things that I think is really important that, um, You know, for you and others who are in senior leadership positions now have to realize though, is that um, you need some longevity in a role to really change a culture. And in our construct, at least at Lilian, I think in many companies is a lot of rotations.
And, and, uh, you know, I spent the last 13 or 14 years and of my career in one role, which really allowed me to kind of shape a culture and build an organization. And I realized the degree to which. You know, for many years as a top talent, uh, by Lil’s standard, I was two or three years in one place, and you go to the next place that can create a temptation to, uh, take shortcuts and to have the overwhelming pressure to deliver a short term result and not be paying attention to the longer term of people development.
I, I think it’s a challenge that, um, um, you know, companies in healthcare and everywhere else have is how do you, how do you find that balance? Because I, I think it, it takes a, a sustained effort if you’re really gonna influence. Build a culture.
Naji Gehchan: Thanks a for that. And I, I love this concept that you brought and like always focusing on it.
Behavior is right, and recognizing behavior is even above results at some point. So if it’s good results, bad behaviors, you’ve always, and, and one of the behaviors and culture is obviously inclusion that you were focused on. I would give you now one word and I would love to get your first reaction to it.
What comes to mind. Okay. Okay. So the, the first one is leader.
Dave Noesges: I’d, I’d start with, um, humility. I, you know, I, I think that’s foundational to everything. Um, um, humility allows you to be a coach that people wanna follow. It allows you to make connections so people will trust you. It, it, um, allows you to, um, recognize mistakes so you can change course when you need to.
I, I think humility’s the, the most important, uh, and probably underappreciated attribute of, um, of leadership. , what about success? Success. I, that’s an, that’s an interesting one. It’s, um, you know, in the business world it tends to be, So we tend to bring it down to the essence of, um, of earnings and sales growth and, and quota achievement.
And those things, those are really important. I think you’ve got to have, um, and, um, and care about and have a central focus around, um, uh, around the specific business objective. Uh, I mean that’s, uh, what we’re about. But, um, but, um, if that’s, That’s the only definition. I think you’re gonna fall away short.
Nobody’s gonna wanna be a part of that team cuz you can deliver business results year in and year out and have a group of people who are dissatisfied and, and um, and uh, not rewarded in their careers. And so that, that’s why I think that success successes got to include. Helping people understand what really matters to them and what really motivates them, and being able to tie the business objectives and the success of the organization to what motivates individuals and motivates pe um, uh, teams.
And, um, you know, when I, I learned that about myself, that, um, The most important thing, what energizes me, what gets me up in the morning, what, uh, uh, makes me feel successful is to be a part of a successful team who have a shared purpose, who are attacking that purpose, who are working together, who have each other’s back, and, um, that feeling a team and being a part of that and wanting to accomplish the goals.
Um, that journey was way more important to me than actually the business result. But it was a means to an end and it got to the business result. And when I realized that, I knew that’s what was gonna drive me. And, uh, I think. Um, it’s gonna be a little different for other people, but I think most people wanna be a part.
Um, especially if you’re choosing a business, uh, career. You wanna be a part of a team that’s doing something that matters, uh, to you. And, and, uh, if you can, uh, if you can rally that together and define success that way, I think the business results will come. What about
Naji Gehchan: leaders eat last?
Dave Noesges: Yeah, it’s um, It’s the military’s, uh, way of describing servant leadership.
And, um, it, it, um, um, I, I think it’s so fundamental and so foundational. If, um, uh, if you wanna be a leader who people want to follow, um, you have to eat last. And it comes in every respect. They need to know that, um, you’re willing to make a sacrifice on their behalf, that you’re willing to go to bat for them if, uh, if they feel like they’ve been mistreated, um, that you’re gonna be an advocate for their career.
Delivered, um, that you’re gonna forgive them and help them overcome it if they’ve made a mistake, even if it’s a pretty significant mistake. And, um, that, um, if you’re giving someone really tough feedback. It’s, um, uh, it’s not because you’ve got a big ego and you wanna just be, you know, and prove who’s the boss, but it’s because you just wanna make them better, and they’ve gotta believe that.
So I, I think that, um, yeah, it, it’s, um, servant leadership means everything to people. I mean, I, you know, I’ve often, as I talk to young leaders and at Lilly and. and in other organizations now, um, now I always ask them, um, what do they want in a coach? And what, what may the think about the best coach, the best leader, the best mentor you ever had?
What were the attributes that they brought to, uh, to the table? And, uh, it’s, they may not say that Leader eight lasts, but they’re gonna describe all of those attributes that come from, um, putting others first and, and being a servant leader. And, uh, Uh, and caring about them and making them better. And often it’ll, it’ll include some really tough feedback and real challenge.
And they stretched me and sometimes I couldn’t stand them cause they just kept pushing me. But I always knew, uh, they were doing it because they wanted me to be better, not because they were trying to be better.
Naji Gehchan: The last one is spread love and organizations.
Dave Noesges: Yeah. It’s interesting. I, I, um, it, um, The idea of spreading love in an organization was uncomfortable for me.
Um, and, and probably, um, till very late in my career, if you’d said, how do you spread love? I would’ve been like, well, there’s, that’s not what we do here, Naji. This is work. And it’s, you know, it’s supposed to be tough and it’s, um, but you know, it, um, so much of what we’ve been talking about is about. Caring deeply for other people and people who are different from you and trying to help them be better and some self-sacrifice and, um, um, it, it’s, um, I, I think spread love in an organization is not about, uh, intimacy and the, the feelings that you have for a spouse or a family member, but it is about, Deep caring for other people and wanting to see them succeed and rallying behind them when they have, um, a difficult c circumstance, whether it’s in their, uh, in, in their business life or in their personal life, and caring enough about them to be there for them.
And, uh, you know, it, it, um, People will, um, will, will run toward a leader that, um, is there for them, uh, when they need them the most and when they didn’t expect it and run from a leader who’s not there for ’em, uh, under difficult circumstances. The challenge for organizations, uh, uh, and a healthcare company is how do you.
um, how do you as an organization demonstrate to people that, um, that you care for them and you, and you love them in, in that sense? And, uh, um, and, you know, organizations don’t love people, but, uh, I think the recipe there is you’ve gotta hire leaders at every level, and especially at the most senior level, who, um, lead by example in that way and really put their people first and.
um, and, and are willing to exemplify that in the most difficult circumstances. And, uh, um, there’s, uh, probably precious few companies that, that, uh, um, that most of their people feel like that’s what, what their leaders look like and how they operate. Well, thanks
Naji Gehchan: for that, Dave. What, what a great way to sum up and really.
Define what, what, what we mean by love. Also on this podcast, it’s really what, what you’ve shared throughout. So you are definitely spreading love in the organization as you’ve built those teams. Any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around the world?
Dave Noesges: You know, I, um, One is, uh, um, you know, as I see the political world now, an increasing challenge and there’s a lot of suspicion of, uh, of healthcare and, um, um, and, uh, y you know, a lot of, uh, I think, uh, public policy challenges that are, um, That have the potential to undermine innovation, it’s gonna take a lot of courage and a lot of, um, um, uh, just stay with it and tenacity to believe in the mission to, uh, to continue to innovate and what may not be the most innovation friendly, uh, environment from a.
Kind of geopolitical standpoint. And that just takes a lot of grit and a lot of tenacity and, and a lot of belief that we’re making a difference. Um, when you may have a lot of people telling you, and a lot of people telling your, your young people who have a, that, you know, this is a greedy or, um, um, Kind of, uh, institution and you can’t be trusted.
But, um, there’s so much good that’s coming outta biotech and healthcare. We’ve gotta believe in what we’re doing. We’ve gotta be humble about how we share that. We’ve gotta challenge ourselves and realize when, um, when our medicines truly are unaffordable and, uh, what we’re gonna do about that. But, um, it, it’s, uh, uh, if we’re gonna continue to have future generations that have longer life expectancies and we have, um, we, we’ve got to live our mission in, in healthcare, um, The other thing on a more personal note that I’ve, as I’m retired now and in a different phase of my life, that I’ve, um, um, wish I had.
Uh, been more thoughtful about when I was, uh, going through my career journey is to enjoy the journey. Um, the journey’s way more rewarding than the destination. I think so much of career steps were, when’s the next promotion, when’s the next success? Are we gonna make plan or not? And, um, I probably didn’t stop along the way and, uh, enjoy the moment enough and, uh, and enjoy that to what I.
Um, uh, was my why, which is with a great group of people pursuing a goal and the pursuit of the goal is much more exciting than achieving the goal and for me at least. And, and then the, the last thing is when you reach that retirement date and you look back on it, at least for me, I realize that, um, people to me, weren’t the most important thing.
They were the only thing that matters. When I look back at my Lilly career, the people that impacted me, the people that mentored me, people who I were, was able to mentor and grow and develop, and who I know appreciated that. Uh, it’s, uh, uh, all of my fond memories of, you know, 31 years at Lilly are about people.
Um, and that not about the business. And I think there’s a probably a lesson in that for all of us.
Naji Gehchan: Wow. Thank you so much again for those precious words of wisdom and, and incredible advice. Uh, again, it was an honor to be in your team and really honor to have you with me today. Thanks for joining me.
Dave Noesges: It’s my pleasure, Naji. Thank you.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to spread love and organization’s podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I’m Naji your host for this podcast, joined today with Dina Sherif, senior lecturer at MIT Sloan, and executive Director of the MIT Legatum Center for Development and Entrepreneurship. Dina is also a founding partner of Cairo based, Ahead of the Curve, which is the Arab region’s leading firms on issues related to sustainable business growth and impact-driven entrepreneurship. Most recently, Dina joined Disrupt Tech, Egypt’s first FinTech focused venture capital fund as a partner, pursuing her passion and building a fund that will support technology being used as a critical tool in creating financial inclusion for a largely unbanked population, most specifically women. Formerly Dina was a senior advisor to Ashoka, helping them reimagine new ways to identify the world’s leading social innovators. She was also the founding director of the American University of Cairo Center of for Entrepreneurship. Gina has several publications, multiple recognitions and words, and is currently a member of the Special Presidential Advisory Council for Economic Development reporting to the President of Egypt, a global advisory board member, and the Eisenhower Fellowships, a member of the board of Kala, uh, holding a member of the Board of Smart Medical Services and a member of the Board of Educate. Beyond old. Dina is an incredible leader, an incredible human, and I am so honored to have her with me today.
Dina, it’s just a pleasure to see you again live from Cairo. I think today.
Dina Sherif: Yes, live from Cairo. Thank you Naji for reading out my full bio. It always makes me pause and feel very, very old. .
Naji Gehchan: No, and, and I didn’t, I didn’t treat all of it, actually.
It’s way longer, but I wanna hear all about it from you and so please, if we can have a little bit. You know, the, between the lines of your story, your personal jour, uh, journey, uh, would love to hear more about what brought you, where you are today and, um, the inspiring leader you became.
Dina Sherif: Hmm. Uh, I think what brought me to where I am today, um, is a general philosophy that I’ve had, uh, or that I applied to my life really, which is what I like to refer to as the law of two.
In other words, if I am, uh, doing work where I am adding value and extracting value, um, in a way that is feeding my soul and in a way that is really contributing to, um, the, the, the growth and development of a particular organization that I’m working with, then I keep my feet firmly there, but, I am no longer adding value in contributing to the growth and evolution of that organization.
And if I am, or if I am no longer receiving, um, value that is adding to my own personal growth and evolution, then I have a moral obligation to take my own two feet and walk elsewhere. And I think that has really served me well over the years, um, in terms of career decisions and. , uh, when I have moved from one place to the next in my professional career, um, you know, oddly enough, it’s also served me in my personal life.
I think, uh, I, I, I, I think that everything in life has an expiry date, and I think that that philosophy has really helped me, um, identify quicker when that expiry date has.
Naji Gehchan: I love this philosophy. Uh, um, it, it, you’re saying expirated, but it’s true, like knowing when you have to leave, you know, before actually you’re just. Have to leave, right? Like having this courage to go, having this also that of doing the things that you like. I, I love how you framed this philosophy. So tell, tell us more along the way and along the journey, uh, how, how did you move from, uh, I think you started studying, uh, political sciences.
You’ve done several other things and now you’re. I don’t know in how many different industries and how many different countries I’d, I’d love to learn a little bit like the common thread, uh, that took you into, um, all those different, um, yeah. All, all the different adventures and, and really focused on social entrepreneurship at the end on social impact.
Dina Sherif: Uh, yeah. I mean, I think when I, when I went to college, I went to the American University in Cairo, and I think, you know, one of the first. You know how in life you have all these defining moments, right? As you, as you go through your, the everyone goes through their individual journey. There are these moments that are just clearly defining moments that kind of dictate.
How the rest of your life will evolve. When I was studying at a U C I, I think one of those defining moments was, um, when a u C was still based smack in the center of Cairo and Tahari Square. Uh, I used to take either the metro I lived in, I lived in Hilo, so suburb in Cairo. I used to either take the metro or I would take, um, the, a public service bus because, you know, my father, even though I went to, you know, an elite private school, Believe that you have to use public transportation and find your own way around the city.
Um, uh, and so I, I, I used to, uh, interact with, with so many different kinds of people, um, as I was commuting from Hill, uh, to, to, and then one day. I don’t know what happened, but I ended up getting off a little earlier, um, on Ram in Ramsey Street, and I decided to like just walk the rest of the way to Tahari Square and I ended up in front of this church called St.
Andrews Church. And this is where I think, you know, fate tends to step in and I, I, I saw like there was a sign. Outside of the church that they were hosting refugees from different countries in Africa. And, and I walked in into the church and then I, I realized that the church was really, had really just been transformed into, um, More of a place for refugees from different countries, from all across Africa to come, uh, with their children, specifically mothers and children, um, where they could learn different, uh, skills that they needed so that when they were sent to, um, their final destination or final host country, they’d be.
Able to speak English or the children would be able to keep up with basic subjects like math and science and different things that would allow them to go to school. And it was kind of my first introduction to a politics and the reality that, you know, I think refu, all issues related to refugees are product of politics and poor policy.
Um, but also that the fate of these particular refugees, Uh, was really being determined by. Whatever anybody was willing to give to them out of the goodness of their heart, because the Egyptian government wasn’t really providing them with much. And so I walked away from that experience with a couple things.
One, um, you know, a desire to understand a lot more about Africa and why Africa is the way it is and what, what this whole economic development aid, um, industry looked like and, and why it was. There were so many refugees on the continent, how they ended up in Egypt, and why the Egyptian government was taking a particular stance and so forth and so on.
But I also walked away thinking that I as a citizen, had a moral obligation to also do something. If I could. And so I decided throughout the years of my university that I would volunteer my time there twice a week to work with the refugee children there. And I ended up over time bringing in a, a group of friends who also from from college, who also did the same.
And I think a lot of that, you know, really stemmed from the fact that, um, I always, my mom always taught me that if, if it’s in your ability to help and give back, then you have, you have to do that. But I think the entrepreneurial part of me was trying to figure out ways to, um, scale that help and mobilize other people and, and, and see how I could do that more efficiently and more effectively.
Right. . Um, so I think that was just the beginning, that that was the defining moment that led me to really, um, commit myself to, you know, what we wanna call, um, creating prosperity or sustainable development and so forth and so on. And so I graduated from college and I really, I said that’s, that’s the space I wanna work in.
And so I’d, over the course of the years, if you look at my resume, you’ll find that I have always, um, no matter. Which sector I’m in, whether it be public policy, civil society, private sector. The focus is how can I increase impact and prosperity for all. Um, I have firmly landed over the past 10 years in this 10 or over 10 years now, um, in this space of entrepreneurship and innovation because I have this deep belief that entrepreneurs have the ability to solve complex.
Challenges at scale in a way that, um, not-for-profits don’t. That’s not to say that we don’t need not-for-profits. And you, Naja and I have had this debate many times, , but I think we need not-for-profits, but I think. Innovation driven entrepreneurs, they have the ability to create business models at scale that can really, um, be financially sustainable and not dependent on, um, philanthropy and donor driven aid.
And I think also there’s something about entrepreneurship that really gives agency back to the citizen to create change and to solve their own problems. Um, and so that’s, Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah.
Naji Gehchan: And specifically this, because that, that was my my second question. And thank you for sharing, uh, this, this big, uh, experience that you had, uh, and powerful that led you to have so much impact across the world.
And, and now we work a lot with social impact and impact driven entrepreneurship. Like we, we are hearing a lot about it, but you are obviously super involved with, with those entrepreneurs. How do you define it? Like how do you define someone? Building a company that is an impact driven entrepreneurship organization.
Dina Sherif: I think, I think over the years, I’ve come to shy away now from the term social entrepreneurship or impact driven entrepreneurship. I think my position is if, uh, if somebody is coming to solve a. Complex challenge that impacts society. So whether it be education, um, transportation, healthcare, energy, you name it.
I mean, we, we don’t have a shortage of complex challenges in today’s world. You know, quite the contrary, we have a plethora. But if, if, if you have an individual and they. Coming in and they are coming up with a solution to this challenge that can be scaled and they’re, um, you creating a business model around that, that is scalable, then I think that is what impact is, right?
You’ll be solving a complex challen complex challenge at scale. You’re going to be creating jobs and generating wealth, so you’re creating multiple layers of value and I. For me when. When I talk about entrepreneurship, it’s always been important for me because of the different layers of impact that entrepreneurs have the power to create, right?
So if, if we take, you know, where we come, the Middle East, come from the Middle East, or if we take Africa larger, if we take Southeast Asia, if we take Latin America, you know, uh, Everyone talks about the need to create jobs, and we need entrepreneurship because we need to see economic growth and we need to create more jobs for the, for our local population.
For me, that’s just one aspect of it, that job creation, wealth creation piece of it. But the other part is that, you know, when you think about. Hal. For example, Mo Rahim, when he brought telecom uh, to Africa, he was the first person to start a telecom company in Sub-Saharan Africa. What he was doing is he was creating multiple new markets.
I think that is impact. that he was an impact driven entrepreneur because he knew the minute that he gave access to the, the majority of the population of Africa to a mobile phone, that this would unlock huge opportunity. Hmm. Uh, and it did. Right? Um, the same goes for example, um, you know, if you think about Uber or if you think about em, in the Middle East, and obviously these are companies that have done really, really well for themselves.
Em has done really well for themselves, but they’ve also created job opportunities for a lot of, uh, people who wouldn’t have had those job, job opportunities. But if you take that, that’s just a narrow scope of it. But if you think about the layers of value that they have created with that business model, , for example.
Um, in our, in our part of the world, you know, Uber solved a huge can. He solved a huge problem for women and mobility and getting from point A to point point B. Um, it, it, you know, it, I think, I think all of these different business models. Provided that they’re solving a real societal challenge, at the heart of it is going to be impact, and it will be.
And you will find many, many layers of impact that you can peel, peel back. I, I
Naji Gehchan: love, you know, this perspective and Yeah. Well you obviously work in this field. You’ve done research, you were part of a book, charity to social, uh, change. I’m, I’m feeling like there is a thin line right from. Being a company and saying we have a, an impact, right?
Like you gave example of great companies like Kareem Healthcare. Practically all of us in healthcare are trying to make life better for patients, right? And obviously having a social impact, but, but then you have like all. You know, other stories like, uh, shareholders value generating this. I’d love to get your views because I’m feeling like, and you can’t take rim as an example, as you said, like they made a lot of value for the, for the company and shareholders too, but yet they managed to impact socially.
So where do you, is there a line to be Joan or is it just Every company at the end of the day has a social responsibility? and they should
Dina Sherif: abide by it. No, I think it’s a really good question, and I think ultimately for me, the differentiating factor is always intentionality, right? What is the intention of the entrepreneur starting the venture?
Um, did that entrepreneur start that venture? with the sole purpose of solving a particular challenge in mind? Or was that entrepreneur starting a business because they wanna maximize profits and generate wealth? Because those are two very different things. And if we take, like, let’s take some examples.
When I think about, say for example, um, if you look at my country, Egypt, uh, healthcare is a massive problem. Access is a problem. Quality, uh, the quality of healthcare provided is a problem. You know, I would argue that healthcare overall, globally we’ve seen the, the, the. Extreme dysfunctionality of healthcare as a system.
Um, and I think the incredible misalignment of all the dis different stakeholders that exist in the health healthcare space around purpose hasn’t, has become extremely evident like during Covid and post covid. But if you say, for example, you know, in Egypt, public healthcare is. Extremely problematic. If you wanna get any, any kind of, I would say, semblance of quality healthcare, you have to go to a private healthcare provider, which is also very problematic because if you say, take one of our leading private hospitals, say Cle Cleopatra Holding, which, which is now like a group of private hospitals, well, the reality.
these hospitals are functioning to return maximum profits to their shareholders. Their purpose was never to deliver high quality healthcare to patients. If, if it was, they would be making decisions very differently. So the intention, right, was never about the patient or the end user or the quality of the healthcare provided.
And so, Decisions are made very differently. Now, if you think for example, um, about. Uh, an entrepreneur like amta who started smart medical, um, smart medical care, which is health insurance provided to at an affordable rate, to middle, middle income, to lower middle income citizens in Egypt. The intention behind starting that business was always how can we provide.
Health insurance at an affordable rate to those who don’t have access. Because if you look at small and medium enterprises in this country, it’s very hard for them to pay for, for the very acce, very expensive health insurance plans. And so this entrepreneur was trying to solve that problem and wanted to create better access and provide your average Egyptian citizen with the kind of infrastructure needed to.
And navigate the healthcare system. Now, the intentions behind that business were really to serve the end user and to make life better for the average Egyptian citizen. And so his decision making process is very different. Now, when people come and tell him, when his board comes and tells him, you know, you need to be, uh, generating more profit.
You need to be working on your exit. You need to be talking to, you know, this big health insurance company and find a way to get acquired. You know, his responses are always, um, no, no, no. Because that will take away from the overall intention of why I created this business. See what I’m saying?
I totally
Naji Gehchan: see it and I love it. And that was my second question that you partly answered. It’s because I love how you framed it into intentionality is the key, right? But then there is this piece where there’s funding and obviously you’re in impact investing too, where exactly what you said, the board at some point, or the company when the company scales, right?
Because there is the founder, but then when it scales, you know better than me. There is more than the founder, obviously, and sometimes even the founder, and ends up leaving the company at some point. So how, how do you combine this? Do you have any strong stories about The intentionality was here for the founders and it keeps on being here as, because I’m hearing like, this should be your true north.
If your true north is this, you, you should making long-term bets rather than saying, okay, I’m gonna make more profits on the immediate term. Yeah. And really stick to. .
Dina Sherif: I think this means this. This requires alignment around purpose, right? So if the entrepreneur is truly driven by particular intentions around a, a purpose or the desire to solve a very complex challenge that touches the lives of many people, that same entrepreneur has to go through the effort of aligning.
Shareholders around that purpose of aligning their board members around that purpose. Um, because if people are not constantly aligned and grounded in that purpose, then you’re going to, you’re gonna find yourself having to deal with kind of different. , I would say conflicting tensions of where our business should go.
And that’s where you start seeing people say, oh, where are the short-term gains? You know, the, the, the ability to wait to be a little bit patient for what is to come requires that all the different stakeholders involved be grounded in one purpose. You defined in one purpose when that alignment isn’t there, that’s where you start seeing.
I would say adrift. . Um, and I think truly, uh, I would say mission driven entrepreneurs or impact on driven entrepreneurs or social entrepreneurs. You choose whatever term you want, but those who are really deeply, um, grounded in that purpose, they will go to great lengths to align people around that purpose and the urgency of solving the problem.
Um, and I think anything that solves a real problem will inevitably make. for shareholders. There is no, no such thing as conditionality. I think if there is conditionality and you have to sacrifice purpose for, for, uh, social benefit, then maybe the problem wasn’t as relevant as we thought. But if you’re really solving a problem that is relevant to people, they will pay for that solution and you will generate wealth and solve the problem at the same time.
And there’s no need to s. . Yeah.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. And, and certainly aligning this purpose with the people you’re hiring with, how you’re doing your bouncing team, your management team, and for the legacy to continue. Uh, I, I will move now to a section where I’ll give you word, uh, I’d love to reaction to it. Sounds good.
All right. . The first one is leadership.
Dina Sherif: I think leadership is an activity. I do not believe in leaders. So I do not identify as a leader. I think there are times where I step up and I exercise leadership, uh, and that’s when there, there’s no real known answer or known solution and it requires that somebody step up. But I do not believe that we are.
you know, just cause I hold the title of an executive director or a partner in a fund or a c e o, that that automatically makes me a leader and makes me somebody with authority, um, who has a title. But what identifies somebody as a leader is, is that moment where they have to step up and mobilize people to move into the unknown and really evolve and charter progress.
Yeah,
Naji Gehchan: it’s, uh, it’s my belief Two leaders are known for their actions and not their titles. Right. Titles, uh, is, is more authority or whatever, you know, it can gives you, but definitely not being a leader. The second one is inclusive society.
Dina Sherif: Wow. Naja, you really go for the triggering words. Um, I think for me, inclusion. Inclusion is a very, uh, has been a very important word for me as a woman. Um, a woman from the Arab world who really had to kind of fight and push forward to have a space here. But I think, um, and to have a career in the Arab region, but I.
inclusion has come to mean so much more living in America as being perceived as a woman of color. Um, and I think that has brought all kinds of, um, I think has just been a, brought a lot up for me when it comes to this idea of what it means to truly be inclusive and to create spaces where, Different viewpoints, different work styles, um, different, uh, different cultures.
Um, it’s so much more than color of skin, right? Color of skin for me is a very narrow, easy way to define inclusion or along the lines of ethnic ethnicity or religion. But it’s really so much more. It’s, I think it’s the, the willingness and the ability for. Uh, different opinions and styles to be allowed to be allowed to have a space to be accepted with love and kindness and compassion.
That’s not to say that we all have to agree, and it’s not to say that, you know, um, we can’t disagree. We absolutely have to disagree, right? That’s what diversity leads to. But I think there’s something very healthy when, when there’s a space that allows for the tension that can exist within differences to evolve into something more beautiful.
This, this is
Naji Gehchan: so powerful, uh, how you, you said something, you know, diversity leads to disagreement. I, I, I agree. And this is what you look for. obviously, and creating this space where disagreement is okay for us to grow and learn and innovate is, is really crucial. The third one is social
Dina Sherif: innovators.
Yeah. So like I said, I, I, I shy away now from using the word social because. , I think it has a lot of baggage. When we say social, you know, investors immediately switch off and they say, oh, okay. If you’re a show social innovator, then you’re not going to be rigorous about having a, um, financially viable business model.
And so, you know, your, your world is only to go to the philanthropists and, uh, I think, I think it’s led to a lot of kind of misunderstandings. Um, but for me, I think the world really genuinely needs innovators who are driven by the, the desire to create a more sustainable, inclusive, um, and prosperous world.
And I. Inevitably that is social because what is social? Social is everything that impacts us as humans and business. Every business will have some impact on us as a human, and if we don’t really. Own that and embrace that and stop shying away from it as being, you know, too soft or too fluffy. But the reality is, it’s not.
We all exist in this world as humans. Uh, we are built for human connection. Everything we consume and use and products that are offered are meant, uh, designed for the human. And so that is social. Um, and we need to have more innovators who are willing to step up and own the fact that innovation should, um, and can, uh, lead society to a better place.
And that better place has to be sustainable, and it has to be inclusive, and it has to have very much embedded at the very core, um, compassion and love and kindness. Right. ,
Naji Gehchan: you said it many times and it’s also a word we shy away from. So that’s my last one. Spread love in organizations, .
Dina Sherif: Yeah, I mean, you know, this has never become more important to me.
I, I think you and I had have had conversations about this since, since I met you. Um, but it’s become even more important to me because I think. In a post covid world than in a world where all of a sudden there are all these conversations around diversity and equity and inclusion and, uh, we see world, a world where there’s a lot of polarization and a lot of ugliness and a lot of, uh, othering and.
Um, words that have a lot of hate and unkindness in them. I, I think organizations, all organizations need a lot more love. And in that love needs a lot more patience and understanding and compassion and empathy and real, true kindness, right? Uh, kindness in the sense that. Really give people the benefit of the doubt and assume the best in people.
And that’s not to say that people are necessarily coming with the best of intentions, but I feel like when you create a space where, or a work culture where that assumption is there, you’re, you’re lifting up the bar and you’re asking people to show up as the best versions of themselves. Um, and I don’t think we.
Enough an organization. So I think we absolutely need to see, uh, I think now more than ever, just more love and kindness in, in how we show up for each other in a workplace. What
Naji Gehchan: an, an amazing way to sum it up. Uh, any final word of wisdom, you know, for leaders
Dina Sherif: around the. . Yeah. I don’t, I don’t know if I have words of wisdom, but I think what’s been top of my mind lately is that, um, we spent so much time, or we’ve spent so much time talking about employees and work-life balance and the wellbeing of employees throughout C O V D and the pandemic and, um, how, how can we create better workplaces for employees?
And I think. , we don’t spend enough time talking about what it’s like to be a person in a position of authority through very difficult times. And I think when times are uncertain, where times are difficult and decisions have to be made, and there’s a lot of pressure and you know, for a lot of people who have been in positions authority throughout the pandemic and now going into a global recession, life has been really hard.
And they’ve been, you know, I would say it’s been, it’s probably lonely. I don’t en envy anybody in a position of authority these days because they’re the first ones to be scapegoated. They’re the first ones to be blamed. They’re the first ones to not be at the receiving end of kindness and compassion and benefit of the doubt.
And I get that. That is the reality of what it means to be in a position of authority, but we just don’t spend enough time talking about. , the difficulties of that and the scars that people incur when they are forced to step up, forced stop forced, but when the circumstances dictate that they need to step up and lead.
And a lot of that puts, that’s a, puts you in a very vulnerable position because it really opens you up for a lot of, um, scapegoating and blame and undermining and alienation because nobody likes change. and when somebody is stepping up to create change, it’s going to be tough, and I hope that we can also talk about what it means to show up with love and kindness for people who are actually stepping up and having enough courage to lead people to a new or a different possibility.
Naji Gehchan: This is definitely another topic. I will, I will have someone, I’ll actually, because it touches so many different aspects for leaders and moments of crisis change. Uh, and, and exactly what you said, like it touches mental health for those leaders. Several times we just. Don’t even consider it. We don’t talk about it.
So I have someone where we will talk about this, who’s a specialist in mental health at some point also, and, and leadership, and we will talk about it. I, I love this opening. We can go on Dina as every single time. Uh, but again, thank you for being with me today. We probably will do another, another episode specific on leaders and, uh, and how they do, do, how much do they receive love.
Also as, as leaders, we can definitely do it. Uh, I would love that. Awesome. Thanks again for being with me, uh, today and looking forward to seeing you in person again in Cambridge.
Dina Sherif: Thank you for having me.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to spread love and organization’s podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this episode joined today by Cathy Nolan, an experienced international business executive. Cathy has spent over 23 years in the pharma and biotech industry, including Eli Lilly, and more recently Aimmune Therapeutics. As a leader, Cathy consistently created value by building and developing diverse talents globally and delivering highly successful launches and growth strategies in Big Pharma, niche and non-conventional biotech. She has extensive experience across US, UK and Europe including multiple launches in Neuroscience, Oncology and Immunology. Cathy is from a large Irish family, and grew up on a farm in the west of Ireland. She likes to spend time with her family and friends, stay fit and active, read, and watch movies.
Cathy – it is such a pleasure to have you with me today live from Twickenham, I believe? South West London.
Cathy Nolan: Thank you, Naji. Nice to see you, .
Naji Gehchan: Great. So first, Cathy, I would love to hear your story, your personal story from Ireland to leading global healthcare teams. What’s in between the lines of such an inspiring journey?
Cathy Nolan: Well, thanks, Naji. Um, yeah, I mean, I, I have a very humble story, I would say in some respects. I, I started off as a, you read out in the intro, I grew up in the west of Ireland on a farm, the oldest of five kids, um, four girls and a boy. Um, and then when I went to university, I studied business, um, and really had a.
You know, gained a passion for marketing, I think from the very beginning when I started to study marketing as part of my business degree. Um, and then I think what really drove me in terms of joining the pharmaceutical industry, um, in Dublin with Lilly was really that kind of passion for understanding people and patients and their experiences with conditions I joined.
Lily on the Schizophrenia Zyprexa brand team. And what fascinated me about Zyprexa and, and schizophrenia and bipolar disorder was the experience that patients go through. And I, I was really drawn to that, to understanding that in more detail and then understanding how medicines can, can make a difference and change the lives of, of people who are suffering with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and other mental health conditions.
So that started my journey and I joined. Eli Lilly in Dublin and spent five years there, um, really getting to know the pharmaceutical industry, I would say, and, and really loving and thriving in, in that industry. And then I took a career break for six months and went traveling by myself and. You know, took advantage of getting a career break from Lilly to really explore the world a little and then came back to Eli Lilly in the uk and then, um, was involved in various other brands, um, in psychiatry, um, and then moving on beyond that to Indianapolis, um, with my husband who I met at Lilly.
And so we headed off to Indianapolis and then had an amazing experience in the corporate center. I think from a career perspective. A real, uh, milestone moment going to the corporate headquarters and being part of, you know, the, the nerve engine, I would say, for the organization and really getting a sense of how great an organization Eli Lilly is and the, the different opportunities that there were to grow and stretch and develop both professionally and personally within the organization.
So I got many opportunities in, um, Lilly in Indianapolis, um, leading brands, global brand director roles, and then working with the chief marketing officer, Rob Brown at the time as his chief of staff, which really again, was an eye-opening, um, experience looking at the organization as a whole and working with some of the more senior leaders within the organization and addressing board questions, et cetera, and working with Rob on that.
Then, um, we had two boys, uh, Lakin and. They were both born in Indianapolis and we decided to move back to Europe to be near a family as we were raising our boys and wanted to be closer. So we moved back and then I was doing some leadership roles in Europe, um, in oncology, and then ultimately back to the UK business heading up.
Um, the business unit for the specialty portfolio and the chief marketing officer role, which where we worked together closely when you were in France. Um, I then, I loved Lilly and I had an amazing experience there and. You know, thrived, I would say, and grew up with the company. But after 19 years, I just wanted to try something new and different and challenge myself in other ways, and decided to move to another opportunity within a small organization.
So going from the big, big pharma to small pharma and joining a biotech called Immune Therapeutics. I had an opportunity to lead global marketing commercial capabilities from London. Um, the, the business was based in Brisbane, California, so it was a real unique opportunity to do that. So I took the opportunity and then we were acquired by Nestle a year later.
So we had another amazing experience of going through the acquisition and the integration and. Building the global organization and uh, and really learning so much across multiple areas and building my expertise and capabilities. So, yeah, and I’ve felt very fortunate Naji over the years. I’ve had lots of really strong mentors and advocates, to be honest, um, who really pushed me to kind of think bigger than, or go further than I thought.
I. Um, and with their backing, give me the confidence to just go for it and usually it, it ended up in success. So, so yeah, that’s kind of my journey thus far.
Naji Gehchan: tha thanks for sharing this. It, it certainly did go into success and yeah, we, we’ve worked, so I’m, I’m biased. We’ve worked together and, you know, I’m a big fan of yours, so, uh, be before jumping into the learnings, as you said, from, you know, different, different geographies.
You had different teams, you worked in different companies. I’d ask a more personal question, uh, about really juggling careers. You touched it a little bit, uh, having both of you and your husband both have careers, growing careers. You had kids living abroad, going to your country. Like, how have you thought through all this?
I know many of us go through it or are going through it, so how, how did you manage this? Um, uh, going. Any advice
Cathy Nolan: of us? Yeah, I mean I, and I think like many of us, you know, through all. Inspiring career opportunities we have. The biggest job we have is, as you know, the biggest role we play as, as a mom or a dad or as a partner and managing through life.
But yeah, it, it definitely comes with challenge, but I think, first of all, I’m fortunate to have a spouse that’s been very supportive all the way through, um, our relationship together, um, before kids and, and after kids. So he works in the pharmaceutical. As well. So to some degree we understand each other’s jobs as best we can.
And so we know where the give and take might need to be for each other at various times in our career. Um, with the kids, you know, it is about flexibility for me. I have the two boys are eight and 10, and flexibility is key to me now to be able. Do a good job in the way I know I can do a good job, but have the flexibility to be there for the kids as and when they might need it.
But we also have the support network around us. Um, you know, we do have some childcare support when we need it because otherwise it just doesn’t work. Somebody did once say to um, my husband, um, John Banford, I guess, you know, and, uh, a lot of people lil would know him, but he and his wife were, you know, big careers at Lilly and he gave John and I advice out when we started to have kids in Indianapolis.
And he said, you know, at some point you both will think you can’t do it. That one of you has to take a step back or one of you has to stop working because it’ll become too much. And at that moment you must put the resource around you that helps you continue on because you can. But you’ve gotta give yourself a break and understand you can’t do everything.
And you might need to have somebody look after the kids in on an evening or pick them up from school and you might need to get cleaners and you might need to do some of that support network, have that around you, but do it. You can both still achieve your ambition and your potential. You just have to not try and do it all.
So we’ve really embraced that advice. I would say and, and do kind of make sure that we’re giving ourselves the support to help us achieve that. But it’s an ongoing balance every day, every day. So, yeah, I haven’t got it fixed. .
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. Yeah. And, and it’s continuous, but, and it’s a great advice, uh, obviously, um, you’ve led diversity as you said, across the globe, uh, in different cultures, different geographies, and you brought innovative medications, uh, to patients.
Uh, do you have a secret recipe for doing that successfully?
Cathy Nolan: for doing launch or for managing diverse teams and geographies? Yeah. Leading,
Naji Gehchan: leading, uh, high performing teams. Um,
Cathy Nolan: I would probably, so one of my. Career highlights, I think was when we launched, uh, Laval in Europe. Now, Laval ultimately was a, a treatment for a soft tissue sarcoma that was approved on, um, conditionally on phase two.
And unfortunately, the phase three data didn’t pan out. But at the time, in phase two, we thought we really have an innovative treatment here for patients with sarcoma who’ve had no innovation for 40. And we built such a cool, dynamic, energized team across the different countries in Europe, Germany, France, uk, Italy, and Spain.
Um, and I was part of the lead team for Europe, pulling our team together. I think the secret recipe is to all understand what you’re trying to achieve together. So clarity of vision. Where are we? , what do we want to achieve? And does everyone understand that first and foremost? Secondly, giving everyone a voice on the team and a role on the team.
So we had different personalities on the team and some people brought different things and giving everybody a role in that team to bring their best self and fu fundamentally move the team forward. So that was a key part of our dynamic where. Knew each other enough to know who brought what to the table.
And thirdly, I think we had such fun , we laughed. We, we got together, we had some downtime together. We were, we were launching in very, very quick timeline. We had like nine months to get ready to launch, and often they say you need three years. And we didn’t have that. So we knew we were gonna have to work fast.
And it was gonna be manic and it was gonna be a lot of pressure, but actually we got a lot of energy from that. And we made sure we’re only gonna do what’s most important here. We’re not gonna do all the other stuff. We’re gonna focus on the fundamentals. We’re gonna do that well, and we’re gonna have each other’s back and support each other through that journey.
And so I think some of those things, just being human and having a bit of fun along the way made a big, big difference. So some of. Most, uh, fun times. I think we’re in that team, even though we were under a lot of pressure to get a lot done in a short space of time. But that’s some of, I think what I would
Naji Gehchan: aim.
And how so, so let me double click on this, uh, cuz I love it. You said curtail vision, giving everyone a voice and having fun as we go through it. Uh, how, how did you manage if there was some tensions to make sure. Because you’re touching, I think, to the trust also within the team. Like you were all, yeah.
You said everyone has the others back. How did you build this, uh, as you were going through it to make sure that it’s a team that trust one another to, to be able to deliver on, you know, the men’s task that you guys had? Well,
Cathy Nolan: I think we, we built trust because we helped each other. . You know, we, we weren’t, you know, Germany weren’t on their own getting ready to launch.
We were all getting ready to launch in Germany cuz they were the first market to go. And you know, we all, Stephan was the brand leader at the time. You know, the rest of the team, whether you’re in France or uk, so you’re Spain or the European team. We were all in it for Stephan and his team to get this right.
So I think demonstrating. We were there to support and be part. It was as much our success. The German launch as it was gonna be anybody else’s was really important. Any tension. You know, there are obviously going to, there’s obviously going to be tension when there is a lot to do in a short space of time, but I think it was about, you know, having those conversations if there was tension and not waiting and letting things fester.
You know, having side conversations but then, you know, being transparent and open and tackling them head on and not pretending everything is fine when it isn’t. Um, and then being able to move on and just being respectful for people. I think tension comes if people are suspicious of agendas or you know, people are in an environment where they’re not honestly being authentic and genuine, but we were all just being who we were.
Good, bad, and ugly. Bringing it to the table. We were, we liked people for their good things as well as their, you know, eccentricities. And, and that was just what, what you need to do to build that trust. This is who I am. I’m not trying to hide anything and we wanna just get the job done and do it well for patients.
So that was, that was the kind of real big piece that we needed to focus.
Naji Gehchan: I love it. This is super powerful. Uh, and you touched something like, my next question would be more about you and your leadership style. We talk, we talked a lot about it, both of us. Um, and you talk, you talked here about authentic leadership, uh, being who you are.
So how do you define your leadership signature?
Cathy Nolan: Yeah, a la large part of my leadership signature is, is, you know, I, uh, I may be a leader, but I’m still like everyone else. I would say . I don’t, I don’t lean into I hierarchy. I, I wanna support my team regardless of where they sit in the organization. Everyone deserves to be heard, um, and everyone’s as important as everyone else from the top to the bottom and back up again.
So, you know, fairness, equality. , um, listening. Being, um, empathetic to people’s situation, but I’m also, I also like to achieve. I like to achieve, well, I have high standards. I, I want us to be successful as a team because I think that’s where, you know, a team gels most when you’re, in good times and being successful and achieving good things together.
Um, but a big part of my leadership style is, is authenticity, I think. And also being direct and forthright. I mean, you know, again, no agenda. This is what I think , um, and this is why, and let’s, sometimes I’m right and sometimes I’m wrong and let’s have a chat about it. And I love to debate and discuss and be open in, in, in how we, we manage through, um, problems and, and, and build things.
Naji Gehchan: Did this evolve over time? Did your leadership evolve over time or, and was it the same, for example, leading global team in a large organization and then leading, you know, in a biotechs motor team?
Cathy Nolan: I would say that I was always started out as being pretty up. I mean, that’s just who I am, I think is more upfront, direct.
and authentic. I, I’m, you know, I, I am who I am is my kind of thing. I think as I became a leader midway through the last 23 years, at some point I started to doubt that. I started to say, well, as a leader, do I now have to put on a face? Do I now have to pretend that I’m something like, because this is the way a leader should behave.
And then I think through the last number of years, I’ve come out the other side to say, I am who I am. I’m here because of who I am and what I can bring. I sometimes get it right and sometimes get it wrong. . And, but that’s okay. And I, I now, I think, have come to a realization that authenticity is actually key.
So I would say I’ve, I’ve evolved, but come back to the point that I just wanna be who I am and be true to myself and to others, and do good work with good people. And, and that’s, that’s kind of, you know, as I see myself moving into the next phase of my career, what’s important to me. .
Naji Gehchan: Well, thanks for sharing this.
And I, I would add also vulnerability. You’re sharing vulnerably those things. And ma many of us, I think doubt, ask questions, you know, about ourselves as we go through it. Uh, and it’s, um, it, it’s super powerful as you’re sharing it with vulnerability and also authenticity. So thanks for that. Uh, Kathy, what is your, if you have one advice you would give yourself, , uh, as you were starting your career in healthcare and pharma, what would be that advice?
Cathy Nolan: Um, I mean, I would still give myself advice over, even 10 years ago, not even at the start, you know, the, the learnings trust yourself. Trust yourself. Have confidence and trust your instinct. That’s what I would say to to myself back then. You know, I, I believe I have good instinct, but I sometimes lack confidence in that, and that’s where mentors have been hugely helpful to me along the way in my career, and I can’t overemphasize that enough.
They’ve helped me. See beyond the limitations I may have placed on myself, because I may have lacked that confidence or didn’t trust my own gut instinct. So I would go back and say, just trust yourself. You know, stay true to who you are. Lean in, don’t be afraid. I mean, I’m not, and now I would say I’m not fearful and I will take on any challenge and what’s the worst that can happen, but I’ll give it my best.
Sometimes fear along the way can stop us, stop us doing things that we know we can do. We just don’t maybe have the confidence to kind of embrace that. And so I would say to my younger self, you know, be confident. Don’t be afraid. You know, go for it and you’ll learn something along the way, whether it works out or not.
So that’s what I would probably say to myself.
Naji Gehchan: I’d love now to move to a section where I will give you a word and get your reaction. Okay, . The first one is Leadership Powerful. What about diversity? Essential, I, I know you’re passionate about it, so you can say more than one word. For this one, I’d love to dig a little bit deeper.
Cathy Nolan: Ping pong. Yeah. Diversity. . Yeah. I mean, you know, group think and all same people have the same idea. It doesn’t get you to a better place. And I, I think diversity is what makes for amazing conversations and fascinating ideas. I think it’s. challenging sometimes to create diverse teams because you have to embrace difference.
And not everyone can embrace difference for various reasons. Either they don’t know how to, or they’re not in a place in their life career to be able to do so. So, you know, it takes openness of mind to be able to embrace diversity, but it is essential because it, it brings different perspectives to the table, um, and ultimately gets us to a better place.
Naji Gehchan: The third word is Chief
Cathy Nolan: LinkedIn,
Chief, uh, well, I’ve just joined as the founding member in the uk, an organization called Chief, which I’m super excited about actually. So it’s just a network of female leaders who, from all industries, um, who get together and support each other. Various professional and, uh, personal, I think challenges. I, it’s, I’m starting out on this journey, so I have my first core session next week with a group of female leaders, none of which are in the farming industry.
So I’m, I’m excited cuz sometimes. For me, I was in the one company for 19 years and then I’ve been in another company for the last three years. So, you know, I honestly feel like my, you know, my lens is kind of narrow and I wanna broaden that, and I’m really excited to do so with, with a group of powerful female leaders and learn.
Naji Gehchan: and there is still so much to be done, obviously for, for women in leadership. I, I’d love like your view about it, anything you’ve seen that has moved further better and things that you would really focus on, uh, now within this organization, or even in life as, as a, as really a role model for several women, uh, what would you do or what would you focus on?
Cathy Nolan: I think one of my, um, how do I say acknowledgements? Observations in the last number of years as I moved to a pretty senior position in the latter number of years when we were at Lilly, there was a a journey customer journey work done for female leaders within the organization. I dunno if you remember that, but when it got to VP or SVP level female leaders, that was the toughest phase of most female leaders careers.
Now you might expect that because they’re big roles, but you also would expect that that should be exhilarating and exciting to be at those senior leader, leader levels. But actually it was really, really challenging and I felt that myself. Um, I think you doubt yourself for some reason when you get to that level cuz you know, who am I to be at the senior level?
You don’t bring as much confidence again as you might see other male leaders have at that level for whatever reason. Plus, it’s demanding on time and some of the responsibilities at home With the best balance between partners and spouses, possible females still do tend to take slightly more of the burden of managing life at home, as well as then trying to manage a career.
So I’ve observed that dynamic that I saw and observed in this journey work years ago, and now I. I would say it in the last number of years. It’s tough. My advice, I mean, my reflection now is it’s okay that you can get overwhelmed in big roles, and that’s normal. And actually the biggest thing you can do for yourself in that moment is take a step back, just metaphorically.
Not necessarily leave, but take a step back. and gain perspective because you don’t have to be perfect . You don’t have to have it all sorted. There is a wealth of people around you to support you. , you can talk it out with somebody in the company, in the industry, in your team, in your mentor network or outside, such as a chief network, et cetera.
There are places to go to bounce things around, but also many other people are experiencing the same thing. And I sometimes it’s lonely in a really senior leader role, and you feel you can’t talk to anybody because you can’t show that vulnerability anymore, because now you’re really important and you have to have it together.
But, uh, I think, no, you don’t, everyone’s human no matter how senior you are. And you, you need to be able to say that and, and find the right support so that you can do your best work. Cuz you wouldn’t be in the role if you couldn’t do it. So that’s the other thing. You can do it. You just sometimes need to know that you’re not gonna be perfect all the time.
It’s okay to say that. I hope that makes sense.
Naji Gehchan: It does. And, and those are very powerful advices for sure. Uh, the last one is spread love in organizations.
Cathy Nolan: Uh, my, my reaction to that isn’t done enough. . Um, you know, I, when I was preparing for this discussion to some degree, I didn’t prepare too much. But when I prepare for the discussion, it is interesting the love in organizations, because some people would say love in work, , but it is important. It’s about kindness.
Empathy and making work a good place to be for people, cuz that’s when people do their best work. So I think it’s important to spread love in an appropriate way, , um, and, and make people feel safe and appreciated and rewarded and, you know, be transparent with people as well. And, you know, be open with what’s going well and what’s not going well.
And that’s spreading love too by being honest with people. You know, we’ve talked of late, sometimes just upfront, honest conversations about where people are at and where they’re going in an organization is key to giving people the transparency they want to need and, and I think more of it should happen.
Naji Gehchan: This is true love when you’re transparent and you tell people where they stand. And those are incredibly powerful words. Uh, Cathy, any final word of wisdom for leaders around the words?
Cathy Nolan: Um, you know, I, again, it comes back to, you know, trust your instinct. Know you’re good enough, you are good.
you just sometimes may need support, and it’s okay to look for that support. And I think finally, you know, you won’t always enjoy what you do or have fun every day. If you’re having fun in your role, relish it and build off that because that’s where the magic happens. I think when teams are having fun and enjoying being with each other and doing good work.
If you’re not having fun on a regular basis or have stopped having fun, be brave and make a change. . Um, I think that has been my learning, I think over the last number of years as well. Life’s too short. We’re all good at what we do and find our right spot. And I think if you’re not in the right spot, then bring that leadership talent and ability and, and go apply it somewhere else in the organization or outside or whatever.
But that would be, don’t let the chance go by or, and stay still where you don’t need.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much for, uh, this amazing informal chat and conversation. So many words of wisdom. Thanks for being with me, Cathy, today. Thank you so much.
Cathy Nolan: No problem, Naji. Thank you for the opportunity. I’ve enjoyed the chat.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to spread love and organization’s podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this podcast, having the pleasure to be joined by Dr. Shahin Gharakhanian, a physician and Pharmaceutical Executive with expertise in Pharmaceutical Medicine, Leadership/Management, and operational experience both in the US & in Europe. Shahin is specialized in HIV Medicine and Infectious Diseases has practiced clinical medicine for over 20 years in AP-HP Hospitals in Paris France. Shahin joined the pharmaceutical industry in 1991, progressing to Vice-President of Vertex Pharmaceuticals, with roles in 3 main areas: Clinical Development, Medical Affairs, Strategic Leadership including membership in the corporate Operating Council. Overall, within industry, he has held positions ranging from General Manager of a Contract Research Organization to Program Executive leading product development, regulatory approval/launch in multiple therapeutic areas across the world. Shahin has also founded, built, organized full functional departments/units for biotechnology companies and hospitals as well as two LLCs as an entrepreneur. He is a member of several international societies. His passion is Patient-focused programs for drug & vaccine development, approval, and launch.
Shahin – It is such an honor you with me today!
Shahin Gharakhanian: Thank you for having me in the program.
Naji Gehchan: I would love first to hear your personal story from being a clinician and friends to the pharma industry, and now back with several hearts, including being a clinician in infectious diseases during the Pandemic, entrepreneur, consultant, and many different, several roles that you, uh, you play today.
What’s in between the lines of your inspiring career?
Shahin Gharakhanian: Naji, I can, I can, um, say that probably the guiding. Uh, the red line, as you know, there’s a, uh, uh, uh, expression in French, or the guiding light, if you like. That expression has been, I consider myself as somebody who is in the helping professions, you know, whether, uh, in, as a medical doctor, this was really my initial and more.
The, the core, uh, value. And, uh, some of my colleagues, which I totally respect, they choose the medical profession, for example, because it’s scientifically very appealing. They, they are eminent researchers and they go, uh, through, uh, many phases of their lives discovering it’s, I love seeing, I loved and still love seeing patients.
Uh, I. Love the contact, the human contact, the fact of making a difference in one person’s life, I think it’s a huge, uh, it’s a huge accomplishment. I know there are wonderful, wonderful people who learn, uh, who run philanthropic organizations and through their money and through their efforts, they help hundreds and thousands.
Uh, I silting that when you make a difference in. Person’s life and that person remembers you, believe it or not. I haven’t. I’ve stopped practicing for a decade and some of my patients still write, um, and ask and tell me, you know, how they are doing and how I am doing . So this has been the guiding line at one point, um, in.
Career. I met a gentleman called, uh, professor Mark Tini. Maybe the name doesn’t resign to you. He is, uh, uh, he wa he is, he’s, uh, alive and, and doing well. Uh, elder, a more senior gentleman, a member of the French Academy of Medicine. He is a specialist in tropical medicine. And, uh, you know, there are two schools in tropical medicine, the British and the French, because.
Historical past, uh, they, they have the, they still have the, that knowledge. And he was the person who really, uh, told me, you know, are you interested in epidemiology? Are you interested? Computers were coming. Are you interested in, um, applic, uh, the applications of the computer Science to medicine? And he, uh, had a phrase it telling me, you know, there are people who work with their steth.
and there are people, the by people, he meant physicians. They’re physicians who work with their stethoscope and they’re physicians who work with their, uh, pen and their computer and their, their knowledge. Uh, so he suddenly opened, um, uh, an area of thinking that, you know, uh, sure you can, you can, we are trained, uh, to be, uh, at the bedside or, or to do.
but that’s not the only way. And that actually took me, uh, to pharma. Uh, and, uh, because you, uh, asked me what was the journey, uh, the comp, the, you mentioned in my biography, I was formed essentially in France. French medicine is excellent and, uh, but I have. Long years of, uh, continuing education at Harvard.
Uh, where, where, where the teachers are just extraordinary from my viewpoint. Uh, but, um, from a pharmaceutical base, you know, science and medicine, uh, I am very much, uh, uh, my, I lay learned a trait at Vertex Pharmaceuticals and. Uh, uh, it’s also how serendipity and chance can influence your life. Um, I got a phone call and somebody was looking for, um, uh, an MD for Vertex.
Uh, and I, uh, at that time, point in time, the company was totally unknown. In fact, the person told me, uh, they, they, you don’t know them, you know the name will, will not speak to you. I. Tell me who they are, and he said, vertex. Uh, it’s a company in US called Vertex. And I said, is it the vertex of the book? So there’s a book about Vertex called In Search of the 2 billion Molecule, uh, by, um, by a journalist of, uh, New York Times, I believe, and was, uh, in fact the best seller.
And I was in France, probably one of the three persons in the country, , uh, who had read the book. And I told her, you know, don’t move. I’m, I’m coming over . Uh, and I wa I discovered, uh, Dr. Joshua Boger, uh, um, the co-founder, an incredibly talented group of, um, Professionals and, uh, took me, uh, and, and I learned a lot, uh, and launched two drugs there, um, uh, with, with that wonderful team.
So, um, I would say, um, some of the dec some was some of the journey and who I am was decision making. You know, you you, you apply to medical school, right? You, you make the decision of. Uh, applying for something and, uh, going through, but a lot of it, uh, whether it was, um, H I V, uh, meeting the, the people who discovered H I V and later on got the Nobel Prize of, uh, medicine or meeting Vertex were all chances.
Um, and it’s, uh, it makes you think that, you know, um, how much are, are you really in control of your destiny? You know, you might be, you might not be. Who knows? you.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, there’s a, that’s a big debate, right? Like, is exactly, is it truly chance, is it a chance that you practically created through your intention, uh, and where you wanna go?
So I, I, I love your humility and stating its chance and serendipity and other things. And I also loved how you said helping professions. Uh, I, I really think, you know, it’s kind of an underlining that you’re talking about. This is what you wanted. So I’m. Did you always wanted to become a physician? Was it something since your childhood?
Shahin Gharakhanian: Yes, I think I was, uh, it came to me, uh, perhaps, um, uh, we had in our family, uh, a family physician, uh, who was a wonderful man, and, um, uh, you know, the, the. The type you see in movies, um, uh, you know, coming, uh, to your house. At that time, physicians used to make house calls. , you’re too young maybe to remember, but, you know, he, these people became friends of the family, in fact.
And, um, um, I was very much inspired by his, um, uh, by his, uh, conduct the way he was. And in fact, I, I went to see, Um, to get advice on my choice. Um, and I, I perhaps, uh, there were, unlike many families, I, we did not have any physician in the family. Uh, so there was nobody, my parents were not, uh, in the medical profession, so there was nobody close I could get inspiration from.
Uh, I don’t, uh, I don’t remember seeing a lot of movies or TV series. I think it was probably this, this one person. That, um, that sort of inspired me. You, you talked
Naji Gehchan: about, uh, h I V and you’ve been part of, um, this, this first public health crisis, uh, through h I v, um, and you were, I think, clinician, but then you also were in pharma during that time.
So I’m interested, I would love to hear your thoughts about really your learning from that time as a leader in both sides as a
Shahin Gharakhanian: clinician and in the firm. Absolutely. In, uh, in the, uh, you, as you remember, in the mid eighties, um, uh, the Center for Disease Control reported several cases of a strange disease, uh, in, uh, young men, uh, in San Francisco, in, uh, Paris, France.
A young physician, uh, Dr. Willie Rosenbaum, uh, was. Uh, talk about chance, right? Was called, uh, from the emergency room saying that there was a young, uh, steward from a major EL airline, uh, flying between New York and Paris, who was very ill. Um, and they, uh, performed the, uh, bronchoscopic lavage on him, and there was, they had discovered pneumocystic screening pneumonia, which is extraordinarily rare.
In normal times. You can see it only in people who go under, who undergo, uh, transplantation. Uh, uh, Dr. Rosenbaum was one of the few peoples in Paris reading the journal of the C D c called M M W R, mortality Morbidity Weekly Reports. And suddenly the light bulb came on. He rushed to the emergency room and he told him, this is the disease that the CDC has just described.
And from there started the, the incredible adventure. Where he took the, um, uh, lymph node from this patient, uh, to the pastor in Paris. And, uh, professor Mont, uh, Paris and their teams discovered, uh, hiv. I met Willie in, um, summer of 85. Uh, he looked at me, uh, and he told me I was looking for a fellowship and said, you know, if you’re looking for a ordinary.
Fellowship. Um, you don’t come here if you are looking for something extraordinary in the true sense of the work. You can start tomorrow morning. He looked at me in the, Ima imagine this is August of 1985, where very few people were talking about this disease. He looked at me in the eyes and said, this is the biggest public health crisis of modern times.
So with that, um, I started working, uh, with H I V and to answer your question, uh, Naji directly, 2, 2, 2 things. One will interest you because I understand it’s the thematic of your podcast. You talk about love. Um, it is, uh, the love of patients and the love you get from patients, uh, was an extraordinary lesson of humility to me as a young.
Who was not prepared, A young physician who was not prepared to see a lot of people in his age range die, which h i v was, um, at the beginning a hundred percent mortality rate. But it also a, um, lesson in leadership in people who, um, pushed away, um, the discriminations. The stigmatizing, uh, for who said, you know, you can be from Haiti, Haiti from you can be, uh, gay, uh, et cetera.
It doesn’t make a difference. We are supposed to treat people and, uh, pushed away all of those taboos to show leadership and take charge of people. And I think, uh, those were things which.
Sort of were totally inspirational. Uh, and I learned, uh, how, and then of course there were, uh, leaders among patient advocacy groups. There were leaders among doctors in hospitals, among the nursing, um, staff. Very important. I think the women play the major. And in society. And that was, um, a fantastic, uh, uh, lesson, uh, for me that later on inspired me.
Um, inspired
Naji Gehchan: me a lot. Those are really super powerful, uh, learning in in leadership. Thanks for her.
Shahin Gharakhanian: Shane shapes you? Yeah, a lot. Uh, well,
Naji Gehchan: the, it’s, and it’s not over, right? H i v We’re way better now.
Shahin Gharakhanian: No, we are way better. Thanks. Thank you to the pharmaceutical industry who produced over 30 or probably the, the count is higher.
32 maybe drugs. Uh, and the formidable collabo. Between academia, industry, uh, public health authorities. I would’ve liked to see this more. During the Covid area, people started, uh, setting up barriers again, and this was a big deal, um, in those times. And of course, later on in Africa, uh, philanthropic organizations like the Gates Foundation, different funds, everything came together to, to beat, uh, this, uh, this incredible, um, pandemic.
Naji Gehchan: So, so that, that was my follow up question. Um, actually, did you feel we learned from this h i V era going through Covid and, and I’m interested also, you, you bring a very important point, which is, uh, really the stigma, uh, diversity include like, it touches really very social, social issues. Unfortunately, we saw resurface again in.
even though it was not a particular gender, race or nationality, whatever exactly you want. Right. So I, I’m intrigued. Like did you, were you frustrated?
Shahin Gharakhanian: How was that? Yes. And, uh, the, the no part is that, um, we didn’t see that sort of international collaboration. Every country started saying idu. Even the Europeans were, were supposed to have, um, uh, sort of a more uniform approach.
Of course, you remember, uh, you, if you’re coming from this country, you’re coming from that country. You need to test and you need not to test. And everybody started. I, I won’t go into ugly incidents like. People fighting over masks, uh, in international airports and things like that, uh, to, uh, in, uh, when, when there was a mask shortage, everybody was fighting over that.
Uh, what did carry over was, uh, I believe, um, I can cite, uh, uh, I, I remembered, uh, data I saw from Dr. Tony fci. Who said that roughly 50% of people engaged in Covid care and research are from the HIV background. So they brought, uh, and we brought, uh, all of that, um, more scientific knowledge, uh, on resistance on, um, uh, mutations on.
variance, uh, et cetera, the public health also knowledge. So yes and no. Yes, yes. In the terms that if the world mobilized because, uh, the experts were from that background, no. Uh, we would’ve liked to see more, uh, more empathy, more, uh, more solidarity between the countries, rather than people saying, you know, I’m, I’m shutting a down and don’t come and see me, and, you know, If you’re coming from, uh, from this country or that country, then you’re not really welcome.
Uh, which, uh, which, uh, which is not exactly, was not at all helpful, you know, uh, in, in fighting the epidemic.
Naji Gehchan: So do you feel, I, I have to ask you this question, I feel with, with, we’re, we’re seeing that pandemic, most probably experts like yourself are saying they will come at a faster pace potentially in the future.
Uh, what, what are your thoughts about our readiness as a human beings as humanity towards this? And
Shahin Gharakhanian: if you had asked me the same question a year or 14 months ago, or 18 months ago, I try to look at this scientifically and not with emotion. I would’ve been probably, uh, I would’ve sort of politely brushed away.
But, um, uh, I have seen during this past 18 months numerous publications and I can provide that to your, uh, auditors and, uh, to people who listen to your programs in major journals such as science, et cetera. Uh, uh, very well. Thought through experiments, um, explaining how, uh, virus, uh, viral diseases, uh, will and infectious diseases in general will spread, uh, because, um, of the, of the ecological DYS Caribbean that we currently have.
Let me give your auditors a. Relatively simple scenario that, uh, I witnessed, um, through the rep, uh, through the reporting of a, um, of a journalist. Uh, there has been massive, uh, um, forest cleaning. Uh, and, uh, cutting down of trees in the Congo. Congo is republic. Uh, areas which have been cleaned out were the sanctuary of a certain type of, uh, monkey.
Uh, the monkeys, uh, were therefore had no dwelling anymore, started going into villages. Uh, and, uh, because they were, uh, one can, I think one can put oneself in their situation. Uh, their homes were destroyed. They go into villages. You shouldn’t expect them to be very friendly. And, uh, by biting, uh, especially children, they have transmitted viral diseases to these.
So it’s, it’s a scary se scenario, but it’s, uh, this is from last year was, uh, reported by, um, uh, news reporters, not scientists, news reporters. Um, so, uh, it is just one of the examples of how, uh, we are, um, Ma man is facilitating. Yeah. And again, there is a mounting amount of evidence, uh, in this direction.
Hence, you see that certain organizations or startups are being created to be able to respond by producing antivirals more quickly and things
Naji Gehchan: like that. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, as you’re saying it, it’s another, it shows us, again this system and system functioning and the system dynamics between, between things, right?
Like it’s, it’s an interconnected web, even though we exactly always wanted to think about it, like as we human being, and unfortunately some would think even some of us are better than others as human beings are like on the top of the, the. The other species, but unfortunately we are an interconnected web and it’s a great reminder.
Totally. It’s such a great
Shahin Gharakhanian: example. Totally. And travel, air travel, uh, interconnects us and we saw how efficiently during the Covid area air travel was a vehicle of transmission. In fact the c d C, uh, uh, in, in Atlanta, one of the, one of the data pieces that they look when there is an international outbreak, they look at connections, air connections between cities.
Cause you can almost predict , uh, what will happen, uh uh, and where it’ll happen. Yeah.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. That was a great, that was a great article, uh, on Covid actually with the first, how, how flights out spread everyth Exactly. Everything. Exactly. You, you talked Jane, about, um, startups and, and I, I know you’ve been heavily involved in, um, the different biotech ventures at different stages and development.
Uh, I’m intrigued now more, uh, from this, What, what would be your advices for biotech companies starting up? You’ve been involved in companies starting, building, growing, scaling, uh, and you’ve been helping and consulting also some of the smaller biotechs and larger ones. Uh, I’d love to ha to hear your thoughts if you have one or two advice for those.
Uh, you know, the first
Shahin Gharakhanian: thing I would say is, you know, if you’re mo motivational, your, your motivation is uniquely to make money. Uh, very sophisticated financial, uh, people have explained to me that, you know, going into biotech business is probably not the best route. You can very quickly make money in.
other areas of economic activity in a shorter period of time, rather than go into a business where 10 years later you might or you might not , you know, uh, you might or you might not, uh, uh, make a lot of money. So, uh, great leaders, which I have observed, like Joshua Booger or hen tier me, or people who have been, um, at the helm, uh, of large companies, even, uh, the founder of.
Uh, had a famous saying, saying, doing, doing well, uh, by doing good. Uh, the, they have been consistently motivated by something which is above and beyond then. Um, I would say, you know, in, when, when you are leading, um, a biotech company, there are three facets you have to take into consideration. One is being a leader.
Where you need to inspire, you need to mobilize. You make people work long hours. You have to be able to get them the inspiration they need. You have to be a good administrator and you have to be a great manager. These are three dis distinct. Qualities. And then the question is, what is the right mix? You can take, uh, you know, 30%, 30%, 30%, but some companies may need.
um, 70% of management and just a little of the others. Some need a little at, at various times. Also, the needs change. The sometimes at one point you do need to be a great administrator because you have maybe things going on in that field, which are very important. At the end of the day, uh, you do need, um, it’s, it’s such a tough area where you need, um, a, a, a lot of inspirational leader.
by somebody who can just pull you because it’s, um, it’s, it’s, look at all these brave CEOs trying to raise money right now, uh, in the middle of an economic crisis in, in Europe at war. I mean, I, um, I really have a lot of admiration. You, you see them, they tell you they’ve done like 40 pitches in one month or, uh, 38.
They go to bio, they meet, I dunno hun, 120 meetings in five days, , you know, it’s, um, you have to have a lot of, um, stamina, uh, to be able to, to get there. I would love now to
Naji Gehchan: give you a. Sure. And get your reaction to it. I know you love this game. , .
Shahin Gharakhanian: If I have a blank, everybody will, excuse me. .
Naji Gehchan: So the first word is leadership
Shahin Gharakhanian: on anticipation.
Naji Gehchan: What about innovation?
Shahin Gharakhanian: Daring
Naji Gehchan: I. Okay. Can you say a little bit more about it? I love this, this
Shahin Gharakhanian: definition. You, you have, um, you have to have the guts to come out of your, um, uh, comfort zone and, uh, to be beaten, uh, on the head by stick because what you’re saying or what you’re trying to achieve, nobody else has done. Um, uh, I think, um, I think, uh, without getting into any cliche or but from public and personal, Personal, um, information.
I, I think, uh, the team at Moderna, uh, was, was able to innovate, um, because believe me, you know, um, every, the doors did not open at the first day . So, um, um, so you have to dare, uh, you have to dare.
Naji Gehchan: Uh, the third one is Boston Biotech Summit Collaboration. I, I’d love for you to pitch briefly to our audience cause it’s one of those great summits when you’re bridging Paris and Boston.
Shahin Gharakhanian: Um, Naji, I think we, a number of thanks to many, many people around the world. A number of medical problems have been resolved. Uh, with new drugs, new innovation, uh, vaccines, monoclonal antibodies, uh, new devices, everything you want. Now we are at the, you know, uh, a core of remaining problems. Uh, if I may, I can, uh, compare hepatitis C.
Hepatitis B, which is currently the, the target, hepatitis sees an easier disease. In many ways, the target finding the drugs was difficult, but Hep B, because it, it integrates, uh, it is an integrated virus. It’s much more difficult. Curing HIV is very difficult. Some cancers, we have progress, but other cancers are very tough.
To cure. And finally, uh, if you take, uh, rare disease of children, some of them there is, there are breakthroughs, but others remain psychiatric disease, which is a big unknown un un uh, unmet medical need. Uh, finding better treatments for tuberculosis. Number one infection in the world. It’s, it’s, it’s a shame, uh, on humanity that, you know, we are in 2022.
TB is still out there. Getting these problems solved, will need know-how from everywhere. No company, uh, not even the, the, the big ones. They notice, by the way, the Pfizers and, and the GSKs and the Sanofis, they notice. Uh, but I think even if you have a smaller biotech, you need to understand that you, you cannot do it.
This is the, uh, this is the idea behind the, the summit is to build bridges. Ours is across the Atlantic. Uh, but, but you can imagine all sorts of bridges between people, uh, between labs, between, and if we try to bring people together in a small scale meeting, We respect the big meetings. They’re, they’re essential, but ours is a artisans meeting, we call it.
Um, and so they, they can talk to each other and from there can come, uh, synergies because we are firm believers. Now I know we are swimming, um, against Tide. When you hear. Countries shutting down and telling, you know, stay out. I’m going to do my own thing. You know, um, uh, it’s, it’s not always easy, uh, but, um, but we’ve been, we’ve been doing this for six years and I think, uh, uh, we have data now showing that there is, uh, uh, there are projects that sparked up.
So your, your answer is on our website. It’s the bridges you can see on our website, which is, uh, symbolizes collaboration really.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah. And even if it’s against, you know, tide and current, uh, this is crucial. Collaboration is crucial, and we saw like the success we can
Shahin Gharakhanian: get from. Absolutely, absolutely.
Naji Gehchan: The last word is spread love in organizations.
Shahin Gharakhanian: I, I like your, uh, applying the word love in a corporate setting is not, uh, an easy task, but, uh, there is an word in English, which I like very much, which is, Uh, which is another way of saying love. Um, and, um, uh, I also, um, want to remind your, um, auditors, um, and I can, um, I can look up, uh, the exact references, but there is a, uh, there was a former, uh, Boston Scholar who’s now retired, uh, who has a whole theory, uh, around the big, uh, social movements.
and the, that their foundation is in, is a, is a sudden burst of love. He has written several books. I can try to find the references for you, but, uh, I hope we are entering an era where, um, our leaders, uh, whether they’re political or corporate, will understand that, uh, their, their teams have evolved. The population has.
And the more, uh, the world is now full of people like Ji, where, which are highly educated, highly motivated, come from different backgrounds, uh, are very autonomous in their thinking, and, uh, leading people of this phenotype is very different from the past. So you need to have that empathy, uh, built into your, uh, leadership model, I believe.
But of course, I’m sure it’s a big debate in management schools . Sure. . Well, well, you
Naji Gehchan: know, uh, first I would love all your reference and we’ll make sure we’ll have them for our audience on your, uh, on your page. Um, and yeah, obviously this is something that have been studied. It’s not always called love, genuine care, servant leader, psychological safety, empathy, as you said, compassion like.
Hundreds of words. And really what we’re trying to bring here is incredible leaders, thinkers like you, who actually have done it and believe in it. Uh, because we, we would never do enough, uh, to, uh, again, emphasize exactly what you said. We, we need this type of leadership for us to be able to collaborate, move forward, and actually deliver for the different, uh, uh, stakeholders in, in our organizations.
Any final word of wisdom shaheen for healthcare leaders around the world?
Shahin Gharakhanian: Um,
probably a plea, uh, to, to pay more attention to this interface between health and our environment. Uh, a plea that in order to, um, be able to contribute to he. Uh, it is better to have peace than war. Uh, war is extremely costly in, in many ways, human, uh, but also, uh, finite. It’s a huge, I’m very worried that, uh, conflicts a across the world will drain countries energies.
Uh, uh, and, uh, uh, you have to, I mean, you cannot. Print money indefinitely, you need to take from somewhere to give to somewhere else. Uh, it’s just as basic as that. Uh, but, uh, but taking this interface between, uh, uh, our natural environment and, uh, our health seems to be rising really to the top, um, of the agenda.
I mean, uh, just looking at from, from HIV. to Covid, to Monkey Parks with Ebola, Zika in the middle, uh, coming and going. Uh, uh, you know, uh, I, I, I hope the covid, um, the covid crisis will make everybody think twice, because here you have a disease where everything stopped, , cities emptied, everything stopped, life stopped, and we, we probably cannot have one another one of these crisis.
It’ll be very tough to manage. So, uh, uh, that also calls for more empathy and love, probably . Yeah. And it’s such
Naji Gehchan: a powerful, uh, please Shaneen, thanks for sharing this, and thank you again for being with me today.
Shahin Gharakhanian: Thank you, Naji, for having me on this program. Thank you. I appreciate it.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to spread love and organization’s podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this episode joined today by Cheerag Upadhyaya, Clinical Associate Professor of Neurosurgery, and Chief Transformation & Business Strategy Officer. Cheerag completed neurosurgical residency at the University of Michigan, complex and minimally invasive spine fellowship at the University of California San Francisco, and research fellowships at the Howard Hughes Medical Institutes / National Institutes of Health and the Robert Wood Johnson Clinical Scholars Program resulting in a Masters in Science from the University of Michigan. He recently completed his MBA from MIT Sloan where we met as classmates and had fun negotiating a car in one of our classes. Cheerag is a member of the Executive Committee for the AANS/CNS Spine and Peripheral Nerve Section as well as a member of several associations. He has been awarded the Scoliosis Research Society Edgar Dawson Traveling Fellowship and AANS/CNS Spine and Peripheral Nerve Outcomes Committee Award. Cheerag was also elected to the Editorial Board of the Journal of Neurosurgery: Spine in 2021.
Cheerag, It is such an honor to have you with me today!
Cheerag Upadhyaya: Oh, thanks, Naji . It’s a very, uh, humbling, uh, intro.
Naji Gehchan: Well, every time we chatted about this podcast and this episode, you kept telling me with such humility that you have nothing interesting to tell, and I know you have a ton. So why don’t we start with your personal story. Can you tell us a little bit more what got you to where you are today?
Cheerag Upadhyaya: so I’m the, the son of, uh, immigrants, uh, from India. Um, they. , they came here. My father came here in the late 1960s, um, actually because he wanted to, to be a physician. So he did his medical education in India and then came to the United States for a residency, um, and then decided to stay here.
Um, and, uh, that experience I think, transfers a lot to me. Uh, you know, understanding what my father and my mother. Went through as they made that transition from India to the United States and the drive and determination that he had and my wo mom had about wanting to take care of patients really. And so that served as a very early inspiration in terms of just work ethic.
But also in terms of what I wanted to do with my life. And so I knew early on I wanted to become, um, a physician. Um, that was just a, a core part of who I was as I was growing up. I just didn’t know what I wanted to do. . That was the, that was the part I didn’t know what part. My dad is a ob, uh, G Y n. And so I, I saw a lot of, or heard about a lot of things that he did.
Um, so surgery was somewhat interesting to me at the time, but I really just didn’t know. Um, but I put my head down, worked, went to college and, and then went to med school. And as I. Went through medical school. I really enjoyed, um, surgery. I loved just working with my hands. I loved the clinical aspects of, uh, leading a team, right?
To, to be able to operate successfully and safely, you have to be able to help everybody around you perform at a certain level, right? Um, so that the patient is taken care of really well. And that really attracted me. There was something about that that just, um, Connected. Um, and so I pursued surgical training and ultimately, um, neurosurgical training, um, and then ultimately spine as you, as you already outlined.
Um, the other aspect though that I wanted to explore was, you know, inquiry. I wanted to understand, okay, how can you not only make an impact on our patients, Today, but how do you start impacting patients? Um, uh, in terms of future, right? Extend yourself, scale yourself up as a, uh, individual. And research is one avenue.
And I looked at basic science, but I realized that basic science. Which was the Howard Hughes, um, n i H program, um, wasn’t, didn’t connect with me. Um, and that’s where the clinical research came in, uh, with the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation Fellowship. And then the M B A actually was a way to sort of understand how to connect the dots when it comes to.
Clinical outcomes research, but how do you actually implement that Right. Within large health systems, right. Within organizations, it’s, uh, it’s actually a, something I’m seeing more and more of now that you and I finished the program, that there’s a disconnect between understanding the data. In understanding how to actually operationalize the data, implement it for best practices.
And so that, you know, brought me back to academics, um, here at U N C as a way of being able to function within a large health system and work with partners and neurosurgery, but within the larger health system as well. Thanks for sharing,
Naji Gehchan: uh, part of your story with us. Uh, ed, I know as we were just telling you, are we connecting, you told me you might be called for the operating room.
Uh, as we are recording, I’d love to get your thoughts actually about this. You talked about it, about this readiness, really constant readiness to deliver in high stress environment, not only you, but also the team around you. How, how do you. .
Cheerag Upadhyaya: Yeah. So it’s it, I learned this from my faculty at the University of Michigan.
Um, and there’s a few factors that I’ve always taken with me, right? So the first is you, you have to really be good at your job, right? Yourself, right? Uh, you always have to put the patient first. Um, and then the other thing that. Learned in that. I, I understood it from my faculty in terms of the training and, and I jokingly say as I grew up in, in, in medicine, um, but it was emphasized in everything we learned at M I t, which is you have to create.
Um, a safe space for folks, right? Um, and you also have to, um, empower folks, right? So let me give you a small example. Um, every time I do an operation, one of the things that I, when you’re doing a spine surgery, for example, is you have to check and make sure. You’re operating on the right level, right? Are you operating on what level of the spine?
Um, and the spine has a lot of vertebra. And so if you’re in a rush, it’s easy to get off one level. Um, and that is something that obviously you don’t wanna do, right? You wanna operate on the level where the patient has the pathology. And so when I check the level with an x-ray, I stop and ask everybody around the room before I say anything.
Look at the. Double check if that level matches the level that we thought we were going to do from the initial timeout consent process and so forth. And I do that for a couple of reasons. One is I wanna make sure that everybody’s engaged, everybody’s part of the team. The second thing is I want to convey to everybody that.
if you see something that you feel that we’re at the wrong level, speak up, say something, right? Um, I want you to say something, right? If I’m driving it completely all the time, then folks are gonna be passive part of the process. And I think you can’t get the best out of everybody when they’re passive in the process versus if you actively engage them in the process.
And I think that it makes a huge impact on patient care. And I gave an operative example, but I think the same. Is very true in the outpatient realm. The same is very true in the inpatient realm and frankly, from what you and I learned at m i t I think it’s true, you know, outside of healthcare, right. And, and, and business as a whole.
Yeah. You, you
Naji Gehchan: took me back in time to my residency and, and actually we had this issue in operating room and um, unfortunately after the operation, the. Told me that she knew, but she couldn’t say it because the, the head of department was operating actually. So, you know, going back to this, uh, how, how do you lead these teams efforts?
You talked about, uh, creating the safe space. How, how do you do this? How do you ensure there’s a safe space? And if I wanna challenge a little bit more, I don’t know if in your career you had this, did you build this safe space after a leader who, before you actually did not have this s culture and how you dealt with this?
Cheerag Upadhyaya: Uh, I think it was, it was a, it was the opposite. I, I was very fortunate in my career as I, as a trainee, as a medical student, as a resident, as a fellow to even in the research space, um, at the n I h, at the Robert Wood Johnson. Um, I think it was, I was very, very fortunate. I was surrounded by mentors who, um, Created this environment.
And so for me, and again, I couldn’t describe it right. I couldn’t describe it, you know, when you, when you talk about like, um, what we learned at school, right? Uh, with psychological safety and, you know, some of the work that was done at Harvard in terms of Amy Edmondson, it wasn’t, it wasn’t something that I could describe.
It was just the way that they led and. Created this environment where they had high standards, they had high standards, but it wasn’t about getting upset with people or, or, um, getting, um, mad at people or, or, or, or demeaning people. It was about helping folks setting very high expectations. I think it’s, you know, you, you, uh, you and I were talking about this, right?
Setting expectations, clearly articulating those expectations. so folks know where to go and what they need to do, but then giving people the support and then appropriate feedback, right? Um, and then being humble enough to know that it’s a team effort. Somebody has to lead the team, but ultimately you still need the team to work.
Um, and, and that humility was something that, um, also translated across many, many of the mentors that I’ve been fortunate to work with, uh, over the.
Can you share one of,
Naji Gehchan: uh, the stories, uh, potentially where things might have gone wrong, uh, and how you dealt with this. Uh, I’m really looking at, you know, those mistakes that can be life-threatening actually in your job. And as you’re saying, as you’re talking about creating this psychological, safe environment, how do you deal in mistake with mistakes in a, in a different, uh, ,
Cheerag Upadhyaya: you know, it, uh, that’s a great question.
I, I, dealing with mistakes I think is hard. I think the natural reaction that we all have, or the vast majority of us have is to ignore the mistake. Right. To, to put your head in the sand. To, to, to just not think about it. Right. And when I’ve worked with, um, residents, when I work with medical students, um, younger faculty, I try to explain to them that that’s been my initial reaction as well.
Right? There, something happens and you want to, to run away from it or hide it because it, it’s hurts, right? As a, as a clinician, as a surgeon, you always want the very best for your patient, and when things don’t go right, even if it is something that is within the profile of known complications and things like that, you, you take it personally.
One thing I’ve learned, and it requires work, it actually, it requires a tremendous amount of intentional effort, is that you have to just confront it, acknowledge it, talk about it with your colleagues. Not in a blaming sense, right? You know, of like, this person did this or this person did that. Cuz that goes against everything we talked about a minute ago.
You’ll create an environment that isn’t conducive to safety, but to talk about it in terms of how could I have done better? How could we have done better? Right? And frame it from that perspective. Um, the, the other thing is, own it, right? So for example, if I have a patient who does have a complication, Bring that patient back, talk to them more.
Um, you know, don’t distance yourself from that patient. Um, and I think this is true, whether it’s a patient or any problem or any challenge or any mistake if you will, um, anything like that in life is that distancing yourself from it is. I think a very natural reaction, but we have to sort of fight that reaction and, and, and work through that sort of dissonance in our head and say, no, let me bring it closer to me.
And if you do that, I think you can learn from those mistakes better. And you set an example to your team of, okay, this is a space where we can talk about it, right? Where, where if you make a mistake, this is how we’re gonna handle it. And I think that’s the other, again, going back to the idea is how do you model yourself, model yourself as a leader?
Folks need to see that, right? They need, if they don’t, if they see you getting defensive or they see you running away from things, then that’s what they’re, you know, going to probably do. If they see you owning it and acknowledging it, talking about it, bringing it closer, then they’re gonna start. And I, again, it goes back to what we started with.
I think you’ll improve processes and patients care and everything. Um, dramat. So much of what we is, uh, iterative. I mean, it’s, it, it’s iterative. I mean, we talk about it in medicine, it’s the practice of medicine, right? I’m, I’ll never stop practicing medicine until I stop, right? . Um, I’m always going to be just working to better myself.
Um, and I think that’s true for life and, and business as well. Totally,
Naji Gehchan: and I love it, as you said, do not ignore mistakes. Own them. You know, and, and you didn’t go until saying, uh, like kind of, sometimes you say it’s the others’ mistake too. And I think this is kind of the worst thing that can happen when you not only disowned them, but practically say, oh, it was the operating, uh, room schedule, or it was the nurse or so, so really owning them, even if it’s.
Your mistakes, but your team’s mistake for you to create the safe place and make it better the next time. I, I love what you shared. Sh you also have a key role within your organization now, which is business strategy. So I was very interested when I read, you know, for a physician business and strategy, uh, in, in their function.
So I’d love to, uh, understand from you, how do you define business and also how you define. Yeah, .
Cheerag Upadhyaya: So, uh, it, it’s an evolving idea for me, Ashley. Uh, as I’m, as I’m getting started, this has been something that I’m still learning in myself. Um, the way that I sort of think it’s, it’s hard you don’t, healthcare as you know, right?
Is, is a business, right? Um, so much of we, you know, if, if, if it’s. It goes back to what we talked about in the, in our program when it comes to nonprofits, right. A nonprofit still has to run like a business. Right. It just doesn’t have to pay taxes. Right. Like a for-profit business does. Right. Um, so in healthcare, many of us are in nonprofits.
Um, it’s still important to run the business and run it well. So the lens through which I. Thinking about this, right, is where, what I alluded to a little while ago, which is that I want to understand those best practices that we’ve studied, right? That even you company, right? Your, your company brings out best practices, right?
You use these medications, this is the patient population, this is the best data, et cetera, but the implementation of that, Has to be done in a large corporate environment, right? Multi-billion dollar health systems have to implement these processes of care. And so for me, that is where I’m sort of thinking about it as how do I help bring management approaches?
right, to improve patient care, improve operations, um, on multiple levels, right? Whether it’s at the individual clinic level or whether it’s at the, you know, departmental level or even at a programmatic, a multidisciplinary programmatic level in terms of strategy, part of what I’m thinking about is what is the core competency, right?
What is the competitive advantage of any health system, right? And, and then, so I’m just not a big believer in. You know that there’s a fixed pie, right? Uh, one thing you we’ve learned is that there’s, there’s space in the world for a lot of folks, right? Um, we learned that over and over again with, uh, businesses, right?
I think about the conversations we had and strategy when it came to, like Trader Joe’s versus other grocery stores, for example, right? And it seems like a mundane example, but it’s, no, it’s, it’s very. Applicable to our life, right? There’s room for different health systems in the same market. But I think a lot of times folks get into this idea that it’s a zero sum game, right?
We’re just competing over a fixed number of patients, and I think that there are ways of approaching and guiding programmatic development. Strategy right around that, whether it’s at the departmental level or at an institutional level, that allows the healthcare system to position itself for what it can do the very best.
Right? Um, and I think that’s my approach, at least as I’m thinking about it and as I’m getting started. .
Naji Gehchan: I love this. And yeah, you reminded me of the fixed buy bias because you talked about it and it’s one of the best biases I learned as a concept in negotiation, right? Like when, when we all fight for the same buy, who’s gonna take the bigger piece rather than thinking how to expand actually the buy and we can all benefit from it.
So thanks for sharing that. Uh, I, I would give you now one word and I would love your reaction to it. So the first word is leadership.
Cheerag Upadhyaya: My reaction to that word is, um, understanding your people, understanding who you’re leading and helping them become the best version of themselves within your capacity. Right. Um, that to me has always been sort of the way that I approach it. You know, when I interview. People, when I’m thinking about conversations that I’ve had with people, my first question or one of my early questions is, what, what do you aspire for yourself?
Right? I want to know that, um, because if I can help them achieve some of what they aspire or even better, Achieve more than what they believe they can aspire to. Right? Then I think you can really engage that person and you’re really leading them, and they’ll be with you right through the worst times. Um, but you have to be able to get them there.
I I, I learned this from. I learned this from a, a friend of mine, um, who, who recently passed, um, and, uh, at a young age, uh, she was, uh, one of my, um, early, early mentors as a resident. She was my chief resident and then faculty. Um, and I, you know, leaned on her for advice over the years. , um, uh, her name was, uh, uh, Linda Yang.
Um, and, uh, just an outstanding peripheral nerve neurosurgeon. Um, but I saw this with what she did. She would help people, everybody. Whether it was somebody in the office who, you know, wanted a nurse in the office who wanted to become a nurse practitioner but didn’t see it in themselves, and she did, and she would push them and again, support them.
And then suddenly they were like, oh my gosh, look, look what I did. Um, to, to others who, you know, no, I can’t do research. And no, I think you can. Right? You can help me with research and you’re not a medical student and you’re not a resident. You’re, you know, et cetera. But you can do research. Let me show you how you can do research, and this is the impact you can make.
Um, I think that’s when you, when you use that word, leadership, that’s what sort of pops into my head. Oh, thanks
Naji Gehchan: GaN. I, I’m sorry for your loss. And you, you’re touching a key point of mentorship, coaching, uh, which is also part of leadership. What about, uh,
Cheerag Upadhyaya: transformation, transformation.
I think the word transformation, um, the word that comes to my mind and the ideas that come to my mind are around empowerment, right? I think transformation is an opportunity to, to really empower people to move to the next level. , right. Um, to break the status quo, right? To, to, to rebuild, if you will, in a sense.
Um, I had a flavor of this, you know, in terms of some programmatic development where we were given the opportunity for transformation, right? How do you, how do you do this? Right? And, um, the way that it was most successful, the, the, the opportunities that we leveraged that were the most successful were those opportunities where we empowered people.
And allowed them to help lead the effort as well. Right. And then suddenly that transformation from the ground up was so much more powerful and so much more engaged when it came to the organization. What about health equity?
Uh, that one , that’s a challenging one. I actually, it’s, it’s near and dear to my heart now cuz I’m seeing, um, so much inequity, uh, frankly, in healthcare, um, for me. It’s, it’s a big challenge that we need to address, um, increasingly, not just in the United States, but around the world. Um, uh, but living in the United States, I, on some levels, you know, it seems like we’ve got, as we’ve talked about many times, wonderful healthcare, which we do have amazing, amazing healthcare.
But when you see the inequity, when you see patients who are not able to. Who are not able to afford care. Right. Um, and or who because of social, um, uh, determinants of health. Right. And the unrecognized aspects that social determinants of health, it’s improving, it’s getting better. We’re understanding it more.
But the impact of social determinants of health on health inequity or health equity, I think is another area. So for me, That is an area that actually I’m in very interested in, in trying to understand and explore. And it’s one of the things I’d like to understand over the next several years as part of, you know, a research, research effort when it comes to neurosurgery and spine surgery is, is exactly that, right?
When it comes to the social determinants of health and how that drives inequity in health outcomes. Um, I do think that there’s an opportunity to a, again, go back to management though, right? How does an organization. Interact and, and interface with other community stakeholders, right? As a way of helping build up capability when it comes to the resources that we can offer, the community, the environment, you know, our, the people around, um, to improve health inequity.
The last one
Naji Gehchan: is spread love and organizations.
Cheerag Upadhyaya: So , I. I think I, I was fortunate to participate in a, um, and I really love your podcast. I love your podcast because you unan unashamedly, I don’t even know if, if that’s the right word, I think, right. But just right there, you throw it out there, you use the word love, right?
And I think. I think that that is an important concept. I was fortunate to participate in, um, uh, physician leadership, or, sorry, a healthcare leadership forum, um, at Intermountain Healthcare. Um, and it was led by, uh, one of the former CEOs of Intermountain Healthcare. His name is Charles Sorenson. Wonderful gentleman, wonderful gentleman.
Very humble. Um, exemplified much of what you and I have talked about this morning. and one of the speakers that he had brought was another executive at, um, the, uh, Intermountain former executive Inter Intermountain Healthcare. And he exac he said that he, he emphasized that he’s like, you know, leadership is love.
As well, right? As all these other things we’ve talked about and that hit home, um, when I heard that a few, this was a few years ago before the, before all this pandemic and everything we’ve been living through it hit home. And, and he went through and he described, and I thought this was very insightful.
He went through and he described, you know, that we don’t, you know, we use the word love, but you know, you know, if you go back to certain culture, You know, for example, I think you talked about the Greek and the, uh, Greek culture and antiquity, right? They had. They, they put different words around different types of love, right?
And that I think is sometimes lost in our modern world. That you can love the people around you, and it doesn’t have to be all this other stuff. It can truly be a love of mission, a love of watching people grow and become the best versions of themselves. But I think that is an important part. That is something that is lost at times, I feel in the modern era.
And I really appreciate what you’re trying to do here, which is bring some of that back, you know, into the conversation, right? As a way of, um, helping improve business, but also frankly, improve people’s lives. Right? Because, you know, work is such an important part of everybody’s life. and if you feel good about going to work, right?
That’s, that’s a good thing, , when it comes to life in general, right? It shouldn’t be consuming, but it should be fun and enjoyable and, and, uh, and uh, and help you grow as an individual and feel like there’s dignity to that, right? That you’re coming home. And I think if you don’t have love in that conversation, and I think the type of love that we’re talking about, right?
It, it begins to, um, you lose some of.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much, uh, SHA for saying this. It means so much for me. And yeah, hopefully we’re bringing a little bit more of this love, you know, not the ro romantic love. We only think about when we hear the word love, but all the other pieces of love, of humanity, life, work, and humans.
Uh, any final word of wisdom for healthcare leaders around.
Cheerag Upadhyaya: Uh, you know, it’s one thing I’ve learned, um, again, I, going back to going back to our experience at m I t Naji, like, um, I build networks, um, you know, build networks, build friendships in healthcare, which I think sometimes comes naturally cuz that’s where we are.
But build networks of people outside of healthcare, right. In other industries. Um, I, you know, I mean we went through this pandemic. Right. As a, as a class , um, and, and learning from each other, um, I think it’s easy to get siloed right in, in what we do, but I think learning from each other, um, and finding and seeking out really good people like, like yourselves and so many other, other folks that we worked with as, as classmates.
Um, is, is something I’ve learned, um, has been very valuable and it actually gives perspective on the challenges that we’re all facing, right? Um, and uh, the other thing is taking the time to have good conversations. Um, I think, uh, You know, the fireside chats that we had as, um, as students, um, were probably some of the most impactful things for me personally.
Um, just to learn from each other, the humanity that people bring to the table, um, as well. And it gives perspective on, on, on our mission. So that, that’s just, uh, just my 2 cents in additional, obviously everything else we’ve talked about.
Naji Gehchan: Awesome. Thank you so much again, uh, for being with me.
Cheerag Upadhyaya: Thanks, Naji. It was a pleasure and I look forward to seeing you in person here in, uh, next month.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to spread love and organization’s podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this podcast, having the pleasure to be joined by Stephanie Chen, ChenMed’s Chief Legal Officer and Culture Officer. Stephanie has been with ChenMed since 2006, and served as General Counsel prior to being named Chief Legal Officer in 2016. A graduate of New York Law School, which she attended on a Harlan Scholarship, Stephanie was admitted to the Florida Bar in 2008. She graduated cum laude from Boston College with a degree in economics.
Stephanie and her husband, Dr. Chris Chen, the CEO of ChenMed, have four children together and live in Florida.
Stephanie – It is such a pleasure to have you with me today!
Stephanie Chen: It’s a pleasure to be here, Naji. Thank you so, so very much for the warm welcome.
Naji Gehchan: Uh, can you first please share with us a little bit more about your personal story from law to now being in healthcare as chief legal officer and culture officer, uh, in this industry?
Stephanie Chen: Definitely, um, you said with love. So I’ll start with, um, I married my high school sweetheart. Uh, Chris and I have been together since I was 15 years old. Um, we went to prom, my prom together and he came to my high school graduation. So we kind of have a, a funny story in that way. Um, I was married as a college sophomore.
Um, and so that’s kind of, if anyone’s been to Boston College in your audience, that’s not normal. at Boston College. Uh, and so most, most students live on campus there. And so I was off campus, married to a, uh, uh, Beth Israel Deacon as resident. But, um, we, we grew up together. Um, and, uh, I wouldn’t change any of it.
He’s a great guy. So that’s my, my my love story. Um, and then growing up in healthcare, um, to be honest, if you had asked me when I was maybe 12 or 13, , I don’t know if I would’ve said I’m gonna end up in healthcare. I, I loved caring for people, but I’ve never loved science. So what’s really wonderful about the health candu industry is that I get to care for patients and people and not be a physician or a nurse, or a nurse practitioner, or even a medical assistant.
None of those things appeal to me. Um, But I, but changing the world appeals to me and caring for people has always appealed to me. So healthcare, I think, um, has both of those things, an impact on the world and an impact, uh, and a chance to love on people in an individual way. Oh,
Naji Gehchan: for sure. This is, this is our why.
This is why we wake up every morning trying to make an impact and help patients live better. Uh, I, I’m really intrigued by Chen Med, uh, and specifically after I received from a friend who sent me an article about, uh, how you are transforming love into profits in healthcare. So I was very intrigued because my podcast talked about spreading love in organizations.
So I’d love to hear a little bit more about what you do and really the values, uh, that you bring in your in. I shouldn’t say company. It’s more in your organization, I should say.
Stephanie Chen: Yeah. Well, thank you for asking Naji. So, um, maybe like eight years ago, I remember being in a room where, um, Chris was presenting, um, to the family where family run.
Company, right? Family owned and operated. Um, but we have an executive team and we’ve got like 6,000 employees. So we’re not a mom and pop anymore, but it still very much feels like a momand pop. Um, he presented to the family the, the values that he wanted our company to have. And there were three, and I remember being so critical in my mind because the three were love accountability, and.
And I just spoke up and said, you know, love and passion in a workplace environment sounds so weird. It sounds like a, like a litigation waiting to happen, right? Like, we’re gonna get sexual, uh, harassment claims, , you know, like love and passion, you know, , um, sounds like something that should be on an e true Hollywood story.
Um, but he was really convicted and, um, and and really passionate about making those three our company values. And we have them as defined terms. You know, we have, um, like love is defined in four ways. Accountability is defined in five ways, and then passions defined in four ways. And we really are those three things at ChenMed.
Um, and we live. Love, um, for each other. That’s one of the things we, we value every human being as an incredible creation of God who brings value. And so that’s one of them. We also love people enough to tell them the truth. That’s one of our values of love. Um, and give them open and honest feedback. And so, and we invest in others as part of our love at Chen.
And help develop everyone to be the best they can be. Um, and then accountability obviously in healthcare is, there’s so much data, right? Um, and there’s just so much around results and obviously the results are bigger than profits. The results are changing people’s lives and keeping people healthier longer, and, and changing the healthcare statistics in the country, right around cancer survival rates.
Chen Med has done that, um, around, um, Like just, uh, life expectancy in, in the zip codes we serve. Um, there’s a 20 year age gap in the zip codes we serve versus in the zip code maybe, um, that you or I would live in Naji. And so like just really working at that, at that life expectancy, discrepancy and shipping away at that.
And so that accountability is huge. And then passion is just like our zest for what we do. And at ChenMed we really love what we do. Um, We wake up in the morning with inspiring energy. Um, and that’s how passions defined and we bring new energy to each day. And so when Chris said those three, I was like, this sounds like a nightmare, but I was really wrong because, um, they really are the best values to define what it’s like to live and work at Gen Med.
And I think because of those people are, are just confident in how they bring their passions and their zaniness and their love to work and even their accountability. .
Naji Gehchan: I love it. And I, I, you know, when I, when I came for the little story, when I came, uh, from France, uh, to the us so I, I’ve been spreading love in the organization where I work for some years now.
Uh, and when I moved here, the first thing they told me, don’t talk about love in the workplace. You’re gonna end up in a very bad situation as a French Lebanese guy, you know, talking about this . So when you said like, love and passion, You know, legally what you thought about it was the same for me, but at the end, as you said, like this is actually what can bring impact, caring for one another for us to, at the end, care for the customers and ultimately help patients live better.
So I, I love how you define it. Um, how do you build this culture daily? You know, in Chen, because there’s so much you’re doing. Um, so how, how, how daily do you build this within the team? For them to be focused truly on love for people for one another and love for the patients. ,
Stephanie Chen: you know, it’s one-on-one, which does not sound scalable, but it really is.
We have to hire for people who really want this in their own life as well. And then they have to, want to push it out because I can’t be in Detroit or Louisville or Atlanta or New Orleans or you know, Memphis. Right. And, and none of us can. And so we have to hire beautiful, loving people in Memphis and in Detroit and Atlanta, who, who want this in their lives as well.
and then that’s the first thing. So it’s people. You gotta get the right people. And then the second thing is it’s cultivated. So in our town halls, in our emails, in our meetings, we really do try to remind everyone of the beautiful purpose of why we’re here. One of my favorite books is Simon Cenek. Start With Why.
And he just hits the nail on the head with, with, we have to constantly be reminded of why we’re doing things, um, and, and why we’re here. And so I think just starting with why. And so our town halls are literally like a one hour love meeting, like a love fest to make that, you know, sound funny and inappropriate.
But it really is celebrating our team members who have gone above and beyond celebrating our, our patient victories and the data. Celebrating. We had an 87 year old patient get engaged cuz she wasn’t healthy, um, enough to even like leave her home. And then she became healthy enough to be social and then she became healthy enough to like find a fiance and she was just so happy.
And so that’s like a story we told on our Town Hall of Loneliness to Love and just celebrating those because we, we impact so many patients and we have to know and be reminded because our job is very hard, um, in healthcare everywhere. It’s a very hard job. So we have to constantly remember why we’re doing.
Naji Gehchan: So talking about this, that was actually my second question, right? If you work in a highly stressful environment, uh, these days with low staffing, uh, we, we read all over overworked healthcare professionals. Yeah. Uh, h how do you do to keep really love at the heart of what you do and actually support, support this mission?
Stephanie Chen: You know, I wish I could say we did it perfectly. I’m constantly striving to figure out how to do it better. Um, that’s like my full-time job because it’s, it’s understaffing triple masking, um, changing protocols, right? The stress is just so very high and it’s always like, do more and do better and do faster and do better quality in healthcare, right?
Like, and so, um, I would say,
Okay. I would say that, um, uh, we, we work on care teams. We say that we are all here to serve our physicians and our nurse practitioners. And so, um, it’s a team that, that really does help encapsulate with returning messages, looking at emails, getting scripts organized. Um, calling the day before and asking our patients, our senior patients, can you bring all the medications you’re on so we can see what you’re taking, what you’re out of.
Um, we really do try to have a one stop shop at ChenMed. I don’t know if you’re familiar with our model, but, um, it’s all encompassing care and we look at all the social determinants of health. We look at if they don’t have the money for their copay and they’re not taking their blood thinner, well, what does that look like for a hospitalization?
Right? and so, hey, how can we get that copay in a payment plan for you, even if it’s only five or $10? How can we help you pay just 50 cents or a dollar today so that you don’t stop taking an important medication? We make sure they have Uber health and and rides. , they’re specialists, and if their doctor, daughter, or son or brother or sister can’t take them to a specialist, we make sure they get there no matter what.
And so we really do try to have this care team that comes around, the physicians and the nurses and the staff to make sure that that load is, is. Co-labor and that the burden is carried together with others. We really do believe that it’s gotta be a team. It’s gotta be kind of like, I don’t know. Um, we have a strong Christian faith and so a lot of my analogies are from the Bible, but there’s this chord of three St.
Strands cannot easily be broken. And so it’s like, I think burnout comes when a physician feels alone. I think burnout comes when a nurse feels alone and that they have to carry the heavy weight of their panel. By themselves. And at ChenMed that’s not the case. They should be fully supported by our home office staff and by their care team.
Naji Gehchan: I, I’m intrigued since you’re talking about teams. Uh, are you, do you, for example, train your people? Do you have like leadership efficiency work together and what, what are the ones you are focused on since like, one of your values is love and passion so much
Stephanie Chen: training , so much training Naji. Um, we believe in lifelong.
um, at ChenMed. So, um, even our physicians, basically we realized that. In medical school, um, you’re not really totally trained on kind of like, um, the positive no. Or, um, even, uh, degrees of influence. Now, I didn’t go to medical school, and I don’t mean any slight, but I know in four years you’re learning a lot of other things more than kind of like family influence or.
Or, or things like that. And so at ChenMed we have so much physician training around, um, how to influence, how to provide for full care, how to ask different questions to get to the right answer, um, and, and things like that. So they can go through training here at ChenMed that we’ve spec specifically designed for our physicians and, and p c leaders.
Our PCP leadership train is amazing. Um, I was just at a partner’s weekend in Orlando. And, um, it’s just awesome to see people who’ve been employed here 20 years, um, you know, 15 years, 18 years, and just keep getting promoted, promoted, promoted, and so, and now are leading teams and markets and, and, and national, national groups.
Naji Gehchan: I, I would love now to go to a part where I will give you a word and I’d love to, your reaction to it.
Stephanie Chen: I am the most excited and nervous about this. Nudie, I knew you were gonna do this. And I kept thinking, what is he gonna
Naji Gehchan: say? ? So the fir, the first one is
Stephanie Chen: leadership. Okay. Um, oh, I think by example. I think, um, to be a good leader, you have to walk what you talk and the, you gotta be consistent and yeah.
What about health equity? Uh, That breaks my heart is the first thing I think about it, because it feels like a fundamental right, that we should all be the day we’re born. We should have the same chance as everyone else. Um, and, uh, the fact that that’s not the case here in the United States as a developed nation really should break everyone’s heart that what’s that, wakes me up in the morning and keeps me doing my job every day.
So,
Naji Gehchan: uh, I wanna double click on this because this is one of the focus areas that you work on, uh, in Chen. Can you tell us a little bit more what you’ve done and also the data that you’ve been able to deliver?
Stephanie Chen: Sure, sure. So, um, Started in Miami Gardens and um, that’s a, if you don’t know Miami well that’s a, a, a poorer neighborhood in Miami.
A beautiful neighborhood in Miami, but lower income and medically underserved, which means, um, the doctors to people who need doctors ratio is low. Um, there’s not enough doctors in that community and we just happened to start there. My father and mother-in-law had one office. Um, their story is incredible.
They’re, they’re two immigrants from China who came here. Um, went bankrupt in a restaurant business and, um, then they’re very brilliant. My father-in-law, PhD already in Wisconsin, moved to Miami, homeless with two children and, and op and went to medical school in two years cuz as a PhD they had that program and then became a physician in Miami Gardens, um, with these two sons, um, basically without a home.
But, um, the, in Miami Gardens, what he found was that so much of healthcare actually was just care and not even anything to do with medicine. And, and so he found that, you know what I said about missing a co-pay or missing a specialist appointment, or just using the emergency room as their only only form of, of healthcare instead of.
True prevention, right. With colonoscopies and mammograms and, and everything else. And, and blood work and, and staying, you know, staying healthy and diet and, and so, and loneliness and community. So they started this, this one center in Miami Gardens in a medically underserved neighborhood and realized the great need.
And so that became the model. Is, where else can we scale and go where there’s a need for doctors and let’s not move into like the, the county hospital where there’s already, you know, 700 doctors on the elevator list. Let’s go, um, in, into medically underserved neighborhoods and help the communities that need us most.
And so we’ve done that and, um, we’ve grown exponentially, mainly word of mouth. I mean, until very recently we didn’t have a marketing team. Um, you know, we don’t pay for Super Bowl commercials, , um, or anything like that. And so it’s very grassroots, word of mouth. Once one person in a church finds out about us, we end up having like 300 patients from that church and things like that.
And so, um, but really a heart to change the outcomes. And so if you check out our impact report, um, the data is all there, but we have, um, doubled cancer survivor rates in six months, which is just insane. If a drug could do that, I think it would be like multi-billion Naji. And, and ChenMed has done that through.
um, our care model, we see our patients frequently and often, and we have smaller physician panel sizes so that we can know our patients intimately well. Um, and I think that, that, that is kind of back to almost the old and days in our minds in the movies where a physician would come to your home with like the leather bag.
You know? I don’t know if you’re getting that. But, and they would know the brother and the son and the, you know, like the, the horse’s name. And so we don’t have horses. But , the, the thing is like, if you know someone really, really well, you know what’s off for them or what’s low for them or what’s high for them, and so then you can cater your medicine to them.
So that’s, that’s our model in a nutshell. There’s more data on the impact report. I didn’t give you that much, but I wanted you to check it out@chenmed.com.
Naji Gehchan: I will. And, uh, so one that might be related Modern healthcare. Hmm.
Stephanie Chen: Oh, the, well, I’m sorry. Mother
Naji Gehchan: Modern Healthcare. How do you Oh, modern healthcare, I’m sorry.
Reaction for this?
Stephanie Chen: Yes. Um, I think it’s disjointed. Um, and f and fractured, I think, um, you can get a lot of tests done. Um, and because of. I don’t know if it’s various electronic medical record systems or HIPAA or lack of communication, but a lot of, there’s like a lot of tea leaves, but no one reading all of them, if that makes sense.
Like, uh, especially if you have something you’re really trying to get to the bottom of, it can take a long time because of the disjointed and fractured system we have and physicians not speaking to physicians kind of all in a, in a, on a unified team, if that makes. What about spread? I don’t mean, I don’t mean that to sound overly critical.
Naji Gehchan: No, no, no. It’s, it’s your view on the challenges we are facing, which is, which is definitely, uh, data is definitely one of the biggest challenges and how they are interconnected and who owns them, and are we really looking into them for us to make, you know, intentional decisions about our health. Right.
The last one is spread love in organiz.
Stephanie Chen: Uh, um, with how you show up, um, like one human at a time. Uh, I think there’s something wonderful about being, uh, at scale. We’ve certainly grown exponentially at ChenMed, but, uh, the only thing I would say is. , um, you’ve gotta have like a playbook and a strategy around love.
You can’t forget about it. Um, I think people are so quick to make sure the model is scalable and the, and even us sometimes at Chen Med, and how do we figure out how to hire at scale and grow at scale. But you have to figure out how to love at scale and you have to figure out how to, um, uh, always look for a situation where, where everyone can win.
Like a win-win situation that’s part of. Mission statement at ChenMed. And I think, I think that’s loving others. If I’m looking for how you can benefit Naji and then you’re looking for how I can benefit, and then we’re both looking together at how our patients can benefit. That’s how we really spread love.
So
Naji Gehchan: yeah. Thank you for that. I, I love it. Love at scale. I love this. . Any final word of wisdom, Stephanie? For healthcare leaders specifically around the.
Stephanie Chen: Oh, do what you love. Don’t, don’t defer your life. Don’t have a deferred life plan. There’s kind of like we grow up, at least in America, I don’t know about in France or in Lebanon, but if you eat your peas, you get the pie, right?
Like if you do the hard thing, you get to do the good thing. And I think a lot of people live like, if I work hard now I can do what I love when I retire. And I think that that is a. So don’t buy into that lie. Um, I read that when I was like 18 years old in a book, the Monk in the Riddle, and I just ha, I try to live every day, waking up doing what I love, and there’s so much room in healthcare to do what you love.
You don’t have to switch jobs, you don’t have to retire. You don’t have to become an author. Um, stay a physician, but do what you love in a place that believes in you and, um, is for you and where you can do what you love. In healthcare, don’t leave healthcare to do what you love. You can do it in healthcare at the right spot.
Naji Gehchan: That’s such a great advice and word of wisdom. Uh, for sure. Life is too short to do things we don’t like.
Stephanie Chen: Too short. And what if you never get to retire? Right? Like, what if we we could, we could either of us have something horrible that happens tomorrow, so we gotta do what we love today.
Naji Gehchan: True. So true.
Thank you so much again, Stephanie, for being with me today.
Stephanie Chen: It was such incredible. What an honor and privilege. Have a great day.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to spread love and organization’s podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
More SpreadLoveio EpisodesDiscover OneMoment Podcast
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love.
I am Naji, your host for this podcast, having the pleasure to be joined by Dr Pravin Chaturvedi a veteran drug developer, serial biotech entrepreneur, and seasoned CEO/CSO, Board member of many life science ventures. Over his 30+ years in the biotech and pharmaceutical industry, he has participated and led the drug development teams for multiple drugs across the several therapeutic areas. He has participated in the successful drug approval and commercialization of seven drugs. Pravin serves as the Chairman of the Scientific Advisory Board and Chief Scientific Officer (CSO) for Napo Pharmaceuticals and Jaguar Health. He is also the cofounder and CEO of IndUS Pharmaceuticals and Oceanyx Pharmaceuticals. He is also the Executive Chairman of Cellanyx and Chair of the Board for Enlivity. He currently and previously served on the boards of several biotech too. Over his career, he has also been a part of multiple national and international strategic partnerships with large pharmaceutical companies as well as governments. Pravin also contributes significant time to teaching and serves as an adjunct faculty member at Georgetown Medical School. He holds a doctoral degree from West Virginia University and has an undergraduate degree in pharmacy from University of Bombay. I could go on and on introducing Pravin but let’s here from him here!
Pravin, it’s such a great pleasure to have you with me.
Pravin Chaturvedi: Thank you, Naji. It’s a pleasure for me to be here. Thank you.
Naji Gehchan: Can you first share with us your personal story and what is in between the line of your incredible journey bringing so much impact in healthcare?
Pravin Chaturvedi: I, a very deep question. Naji, , but, uh, thank you for asking.
I think, uh, from, uh, early days, I’ve always been about, Uh, not, uh, tolerating any oppression of human beings in any form. So, um, illness, uh, medicine was one my way of doing it, but other ways of that is poverty and disenfranchisement and underserved communities. So, over the early days of my life, I was fortunate enough, having been born in Bombay, I had seen both sides of the world, cuz it’s a very large city.
Um, where I could see that, you know, a lot of people do not even have the opportunity to do, um, uh, what they could do, uh, because of the way the systems are set up. So I think, uh, in that regard with my interest in medicine, um, I was fortunate to have. Great mentors through my life, you know, and the first, um, of them was, um, back in the eighties.
Early eighties, and he was a physician pharmacologist, which was what the reason is that I have an interest in pharmacology, uh, because he shaped my thinking about, um, he said something that I will never forget. Back then, I was probably in my high teens and he. Uh, life is really short when you’re happy, and life is really long when you have suffering.
You know, so alleviate that. And so kind of, you know, put me on a path to thinking about this in a way where I could make a difference. And it was not sort of, you know, just giving money here and there for charity, but really making an impact in that regard. So through that journey, I met my second mentor, uh, uh, in West Virginia, who was also a pharmacologist, , and, uh, brilliant man.
And, uh, a very, very authentic person who, uh, basically took me to the next, uh, level where, I had a philosophy that reason is a queen and mistress of all things, and which is normally oriental, people are considered to be fatalistic. And so, uh, his Peter, my mentor, then thought that that was quite oxidental of me, which, uh, basically was a challenge
So we, we had long discussions about it and we started making differences there. So everything comes from reason. And so by reasoning logically, I would start from the patient first, and I would, so, because what you get from the physicians is a perspective of what symptoms are presented. And so the physicians are first doing symptomatic management, but the patient’s journey is far bigger than that, you know, a lot, lot longer.
So I used to talk to the patients and I’d get completely different discussions, you know, uh, from what we were thinking in the ivory towers of academic institu. And so that, that was very telling for me. So that helped me a lot. And then, um, um, by, you know, I was surely going to be an academic na but um, I got plucked because I speak the way I sound right now to you, like a conversationalist.
And so I was giving a talk somewhere. And some executive at large pharma, uh, saw me speak and decided that I was gonna work for her. And that large pharma was called Park Davis at that time. Now it is Pfizer. And so as soon as I graduated, I was bought into New Jersey and thrust into the late stage development programs, uh, because I was trained in epilepsy on the CNS side, but also oncology.
And so from there, um, I, I got this, uh, intoxication , almost addiction for making medicine because it was very, um, satisfying naji to see a drug get approved by the fda. And to go to the pharmacy and see the shelf, the name over there, , even though it was not my name, it was a company’s name. So, so then I came to, uh, Boston.
From there I was recruited to Boston, uh, to early state startups. And then I met my third mentor over there. This third mentor of mine, John, he. Spent his entire career at Lilly, your place, you know, as along with Ray Fuller, pretty much the father of depression. These two gentle, and John and Ray, um, had developed the Hamilton scale and everything.
So he had developed Prozac and Zyprexa and all these drugs. John also pharmacologist. Imagine that . So John and I. We would talk about these chronic illnesses that would afflict human beings because we are living longer. So I come from a place where India, you know, we have more infectious diseases because it’s endemic.
But in us, you know, we were living longer, we were having different illnesses which were cardiometabolic and cancer and cns. And so with him, I learned about that. So got a couple more drugs, but in that journey we had HIV drugs that we were being developed because patients were dying. And that’s when I met this really ill population Naji, uh, who had T-cell counts of two who were unable to even drive by a Dunking donut sign without throwing up.
That’s how sick they were. That’s how grateful nausea they. And so by talking to them and finding out their journey, uh, we developed, uh, HIV drugs and we changed the face of aids, um, obviously as a community, you know, and, um, and so we, being a part of that 30 years ago was another, uh, learning curve for me.
And then, um, I left Vertex, uh, uh, and in 2001 started my first company, cion, which was a neuro company, neuroscience company, iron Channel company focused on neuropathic pain. And I met my fourth mentor there who was a worldwide head of r and d. At Ciba GGI Novartis, their gift is the entire field of kinase inhibitors, you know, uh, two aminos that they had been working on forever.
And so, George, uh, he was a chemist, so the first non pharmacologist mentor, at, uh, so many drugs in George’s, uh, uh, time. So he shaped me thinking about solving complex problem. Of diseases that we could not just apply, you know, because some of the parts is not the whole. And having been fortunate enough to be trained holistically treating the phenotype, I knew not to fall in the DNA RNA protein trap because then people try to add up one plus, one plus one.
One plus one plus one does not equal trillion cells, you know, which is what constitutes a living organism, a living human being. And so, um, tried to work backwards and, and, and George’s gift was, you know, how to analyze what was presented as symptoms and then try to work backwards and get drugs done. So that led me to, uh, starting many companies and I can never come back now, uh, to working for anyone unless there’s a real unmet need, a real patient and a patient who’s going to feel the benefit of what we do.
So that’s sort of a seven minute long answer to your question. Hope that’s. Oh, I, I love
Naji Gehchan: it. Thanks for sharing this, and obviously the impact, as you said, of what we do in, in the biotech pharma where is just massive. I, I feel the same joy when, you know, we work hard on a molecule and then we see it getting to patients hands and then benefiting from it.
I think it, that’s why we wake up every morning.
Pravin Chaturvedi: Yeah, I agree. Absolutely.
Naji Gehchan: You, you built companies, you participated in building, uh, several biotech companies now over the years and managed to bring, uh, to patients seven drugs. Uh, what are your key learnings and advice for those building their biotechs
Pravin Chaturvedi: today?
Yeah. Um, you know, so I, I think my advice is always what I follow, which is I. Um, make sure that we are solving a real problem. Um, so it is not a, you cannot fall in love with the technology or the latest, uh, trend that we read in science or cell or nature. It has to be a real patient that does not have any available therapies or diagnosis.
It can be any. On the entire continuum. It can be anything between diagnostics, treatments, management, doesn’t really matter. So that should be the first, uh, rule that you have to do. That. Second one is, um, um, I do not believe that a single person can solve 6 billion people’s problem. So it should always be
Your thesis has to be pressure tested. With, uh, at least a few people not related to you , so that because they want to please you, it has to be independent people. So if you think that you have an unfair advantage because you have some technology or some breakthrough that is going to make a difference, then you should be able to convince another human being about both the problem and the unfair advantage that you might get.
So that’s the second thing I look for is the unfair advantage. And if you have convinced, uh, one or two other people that that’s the correct unmet need and the unfair advantage, then those two or three people together, not the first person, but all of them together, need to then build the third thing, which is board of advisors and mentors.
Because, um, uh, you cannot know, you cannot predict the future, but you can certainly prepare for it better. If you have wise people to advise here, and the advice has to be related, The fiduciary responsibility of the organization, which is what is correct for that organization rather than this, uh, mechanical thinking about how much money to raise or what partnering to do or which forum to go and present at, or the go to market strategy and all that stuff that people hear about.
That’s not mentorship, that’s just process. Process is not knowledge. So the advisors can do that. And if you get those three, uh, things settled in, then you really have to think about and it. It takes about 40 years realistically to see the true impact of your innovation. And there are three legs to it.
Innovation, translation, commercialization until it’s, so if you’ve just innovat. And not translate it or commercialize. That’s just something, that’s what I call bench to bookshelf research, you know, and I believe in bench to bedside, which means you have to fulfill all three and one cannot do all of it, and one cannot live for 40 years and try to see this many drugs.
So you have to always understand what are value inflection milestones. So what is really going to be a disproportionate increase in value? And so focus on those. So with your advisors and your board members, if you’re lucky enough, you know, some wise investors talk about value inflection milestones, and then really build the budget to those milestones, keeping in mind that you have to have longer budgets as well.
But remember, time is the most precious commodity. It does not come back. So try to hit the short winds. On target, on budget and make the milestones be meaningful in terms of value inflection. So, so that’s what I’ve been able to do with those six points that I just told you. Those are
Naji Gehchan: great advice. I would love to continue on this and more from a leadership standpoint.
You as a leader, uh, have you, what, what are your key learning, uh, from a leadership
Pravin Chaturvedi: stand? Yeah, . So, you know, it’s, it’s a very lonely position. Naji, because, um, um, you’re supposed to do the right things as a leader. Managers do things right. They can, you know, jiggle the process and get it right, but leaders have to set the right vision and, uh, the right, uh, goals.
And so you have to really think about, you know, what are you going to. Um, um, in 10 years, what are you gonna do in five years? What are you gonna do in three years? What are you gonna do in one year? What you gonna do next quarter? So you kind of work backwards from your label, right? So as a leader, you have to always keep that in mind that, um, um, you have to think about what is the right thing to do when you have set that up.
Then the second thing is how are you going to basically, Your colleagues, because you know, all of us, the sun will set on all of us, right? It’s our descendants who will bring it forward, right? So, and our descendants can be our peers, our superiors, our our junior people. It doesn’t really matter. You have to inspire them.
So you have to win their hearts and minds. How do you win people’s hearts and minds is by basically telling them the truth. So you have to be honest, authentic, and truthful. So you should be able to say, you know, um, we are going to do. None of us have a blueprint. There is no roadmap. Uh, and it’s going to be, uh, sort of an expedition.
But, you know, come on the journey with me, right? Because think about the founding fathers of United States. Ji 12 people signed their names and there were death warrants issued on them in 1775, right in the Declaration of Independence here in Boston. And now we have a 19 trillion country from those 12 signatures, and the return on capital invested that time is infinite.
Nobody can calculate, right? Because if you do the right things, the right things will happen. So it has to be timelessness. So the third thing you have to be is remain relevant. So timelessness of your decisions are very important. You cannot make decisions to solve yesterday’s problem. You should make decisions that allow the future, your descendants to be able to solve the problems that therefore they have to encounter that you can’t think about right now.
So you have to give them that wisdom to recognize it. So as a leader, if you can do those three things, then the most important thing against people, cuz you’re inspiring people who are going to basically carry your baton and then, um, and, and if to, in order to do that, communication becomes very important.
You have to speak and, and, and not exchange long emails. Don’t send emails because the written word is harsher than the spoken word, you know, because when I speak, you can see my face, you can see my voice, you can see my hands. And you can see that I really believe in what it is. So when you inspire people and you communicate that, then they understand and they’re not afraid to tell you.
Cuz you can’t terrify them, right? You cannot tell them, don’t tell me any problems, just tell me good news. Right? No, I, I, I always tell them, you know, escalate bad news faster. That’s not a good bottle of wine, bad news. It doesn’t get better with time, it gets worse . So when things are not working, come and tell me, you know, and we’ll solve it together.
Don’t hide it. So those things become, you know, transparency becomes very important. And, and people, authentic people will get people to talk to them and, and they will have great convers. Yeah. Building
Naji Gehchan: the safe space, obviously for, for people to speak up. And when you talked about people, you obviously built teams, scaled companies, joined boards.
Uh, what are the key capabilities or traits that you look when you are hiring or growing a team in a biotech
Pravin Chaturvedi: company? Yeah. Um, it’s a good question. And so really ask them, you know, you know, what is the, uh, what is it that they know, right? Because I think people tell you their skills. Um, but for instance, if you woke me up at three in the morning and say, what is it that I know?
I’ll tell you, I know drug development. I’ll go back to sleep. So the more you know, the more succinct you are. You’re kind of very confident about what you know, and you don’t pretend to be anything else, right? So I want people to have that authenticity about them, that I’m, I’m good at this, you know, I can do this, you know, and, and not say I’ve done this, I’ve done that, I’ve done that.
Activities don’t make up residual intellect, which is what I look for. That’s the first one. Second thing I look for is why are these people really building an enterprise? Are they doing it because of their ego? Is an ex is an expression of their narcissism? You know? Or are they really caring about something?
Is there a significance to why they’re doing it? Because naji all, uh, entrepreneurs and medical scientists are narcissistic. They firmly believe they’re smart kids. They’ve always been top of their class wherever they were, they competitive. And arrogant. And, and, and so that is, and that is a price to pay.
I’m going to inherit those kind of people. So then I want to know the significance, what inspires this person. And if that person cares about someone other than themselves, , uh, then that’s an important character in them. And I will actually partner with them despite their, um, ego in arrogance. So that’s the second thing I look for.
And third thing is motivation. Yeah. You know, uh, 98% of success is from execution. Execution with discipline. And it is very hard to see progress when your nose is so close to the grindstone and, and board members can see that. And this person has to wake up every morning and go do the same thing over and over.
Inspire the people work the people run, and try to raise money, pay bills, , make sure that the rent is paid on time, electricity is not lost, and that that requires a daily grind and that person has to be motivated and a self starter. So I look for those three characters characteristic.
Naji Gehchan: Thanks for sharing, uh, from your broad experience.
And I know this question, uh, you kind of mentioned it in the beginning that you look for problems and how to solve them specific for patients, but I’m gonna try it. Mm. You have such a broad experience in different top science, uh, uh, companies today. Uh, what is for you the next best problem that we’re solving or the next.
You know, think in science that will come up when you’re looking at the biotech field.
Pravin Chaturvedi: Yeah. Um, it’s an excellent question. Naji. It’s unanswerable, honestly, but I think, um, um, there are, there are black swan events that I have experienced, uh, in my life, right? So, um, obviously HIV epidemic, uh, in the nineties was a Black swan event.
Um, unforeseen, unexpected. I didn’t know the first thing about biology. Right. Uh, but I didn’t need to know virology. I knew there were plenty of biological scientists. They were somewhere in the shadows. But with HIV and with retroviruses, um, it was completely antithetical. You know, DNA to RNA is what everybody knows.
RNA to dna, nobody knows, you know, and HIV is a retrovirus, you know? So, uh, so to, to think about it that way, uh, was, um, antithetical for people. So it’s a Black swan event. Um, when we, um, Sort of solve that, uh, epidemic over time. Took us over 25, 30 years to do that. But we did ultimately people became part of the workforce and became almost healthy.
Um, HIV patients today are not as sick as what they were in the eighties and seventies, eighties and nineties. Then, um, September 11th. Uh, and that was a Black Swan event because it changed the world. Um, uh, basically the geopolitical crisis that was created by September 11th, uh, created this whole infrastructure change and, and we got exposed to, um, everything from military.
Uh, department of Defense initiatives to what was, what was troubling the Middle East or what was troubling Africa, because now all of a sudden this coalition had gone to Afghanistan and, and done that. Uh, and, and, and it was all well and good from a military standpoint, but it changed the world forever.
So that was a Black Swan event. Um, the subprime mortgage crisis was the third Black swan event. Because basically wiped out 60% of the world’s economy, from that crisis, and everybody kind of went into, um, abject poverty. And illness and malnutrition. So then you, you did that. Natural disasters happen every year anyway, earthquakes and floods and everything, so you’re dealing with that as well.
And then the fourth one that I have witnessed in my life is covid And, uh, covid came unforeseen and, uh, without firing a single bullet changed the world forever. And so, um, uh, the pandemics, uh, naji are happening faster now than they used to in the previous century. And that’s because of globalization.
Bad luck, , that you get in contact and you travel more and more crowded because the population of the earth has grown, you know, to 6 billion. So I think we are living longer, but we are living more crowded, less resources. Climate change. All of these are having an effect on us, any, any living cell. So adaptive response.
So I’m not going to say that there is a technology today that’s gonna solve every problem tomorrow. So when I, you know, CRISPR came out in 93, gene editing became the, uh, flavor of the month. I’m completely unprecedented by that because that does not mean anything. Because by the time you edit the gene and put that back in to translate to a protein, the species has evolved or become extinct,
So you’ve gotta solve real problems in real. And not sell hope. And so one has to remember, hope is not a strategy, you know, to solve problems, you know? Yes. And people who sell hope are basically just interested in being narcissistic and talk on media circuits. We have to solve real problems. If there’s a chole outbreak in Haiti, we gotta really contain that.
Or if there’s a viral crisis, Ebola crisis in West Africa, we gotta solve that. So I don’t, um, somehow problems emerge. I don’t go looking for them. But when they emerge and they come in my, uh, eye line and I feel like we should do something about it, then I will collect a group of people who know more about it and then, and try to listen to them and say, what can we do about it?
And then try to influence everything. So policy influence is very important. Science alone cannot solve the problem policy and the market conditions have to be solved. So then you have to bring all those people into the equation. So that’s how I.
Naji Gehchan: Yeah, I’m, I’m with you. We, you know, so many times we hear that we wanna do things, but actually do not act and just fix the problem.
So this getting things done, I’m feeling is one of the toughest things, unfortunately, in, in today’s where a lot of people wanna do things, but actually those who really take a problem and fix it, or a few. I, I will go into giving you a word now and I would love your reaction to it. Uh, The first word is leadership.
Mm-hmm.
Pravin Chaturvedi: decisions.
What about impact value,
PowerPoint. Useless
Naji Gehchan: I manage the bet for you to speak more than three minutes. , can you tell us more? Can you tell us more about your philosophy on PowerPoint? I think
Pravin Chaturvedi: many will benefit from it. Well, I think, uh, I think PowerPoints are visual aids, right? So, uh, people use them as a way to, uh, create a, um, um, a monolog. Because, uh, you know, it’s like watching television or watching these, um, um, um, what do they call binge watching all these shows on Netflix.
You know, you get transfixed to the, uh, stimulus to your eye and your brain, and you basically are no longer thinking you suspend everything else. So what PowerPoints are meant to be is, you know, I have a 10, 20, 30 rule for PowerPoint. So if you work with me Naji, it’s 10 slides, 20 minutes, and 30 point font.
So not six point fonts with 9,900 words in a slide. You know, cannot have more than 10 slides. If you cannot speak to me in 20 minutes. What you want to talk about should be usually two minutes. But if you can do it in 20 minutes with 10 slides, with 30 point font, I will listen. But as soon as somebody comes in and there are so many words on the PowerPoints line, I stop reading and I basically either leave the room and get a cup of coffee.
Or I just go outside, you know? So that’s my philosophy on PowerPoint .
Naji Gehchan: What about spread love in organizations?
Pravin Chaturvedi: Well, I, I am fascinated by what you, uh, the preamble that you gave, uh, I think it’s a very interesting, um, um, way to present. Um, in our industry, which is a technical industry. Correct. So, so the way you have decided to spread love and you are making your point that we learn from each other, that human beings learn from each other and we grow and grow together.
Um, which is, you know, is my philosophy about mentorship. Right? That’s why I’m so grateful to my mentors. I’ve been lucky to. Many, obviously my parents and my friends and new friends, uh, such as you, Naji, you know, they’re all become my mentors because we learn from everyone, including our children. And so I, I feel like the way you, your thesis of, uh, spread love.
I, I loved it. Thank you for including me. Oh, thank you. It’s such,
Naji Gehchan: it’s such an honor Pravin hearing you say this and, and I know you’re passionate about it. I remember the first time we met you made sure that everyone connects humanly with others. Yes. And, and this is, I think you’re genuinely caring about people just talking to one another
Pravin Chaturvedi: for us to grow.
I think otherwise we would, you know, we can cannot, we live in isolations and we, we, we, we do not solve anything. Cause you know, it becomes an echo chamber if you only hear yourself all the time and there is no dialogue in it. You know, cuz the purpose of a talk and education for that matter, maji, is to provoke a response.
And so when I give a talk, I expect two responses. I expect you to either hate what I. Or love what I say, the people that I get upset by are the ones who are apathetic to it, who basically don’t listen, have no reaction to it. That bothers me a lot because that means that I did not influence them. I would, I would provoke an anger in you.
I would’ve influenced you because my purpose may well have been to annoy, you know, in my talk. You know? So I think that’s the purpose of human interaction. We get better when we actually provoke a reaction, you know?
Naji Gehchan: Any final words of wisdom, uh, Pravin to healthcare leaders around the world?
Pravin Chaturvedi: Um, they should always remember that they have to be mission oriented and the mission has to be about patient impact.
Unfortunately, our world has become, we have replaced the word impact with seven letter word called impress, and they try to impress you with wealth and their balance sheets and, and when you are a healthcare leader. Take that position with great responsibility because the patients rely on you to basically help them get better.
And a healthy society is a productive society. And just if 10 people have wealth, but 90 people are sick, that’s not a society that is going to be productive. So healthcare leadership take. Responsibility very, very seriously. Otherwise, they should not be healthcare leaders. They should be investment bankers, or they can be involved street, but they should not be running healthcare, biotech, leadership organizations, that is not their role.
And biotech companies should always be led by scientists, medical physician scientists, biological scientists, because it is a scientific game. And that has to, that’s the unfair advantage you have to bring the unfair advantages of people. Intellectual property is not a patent, it’s the people, you know. So that’s my advice to them.
Thank you
Naji Gehchan: so much. It’s such a crucial advice for us as healthcare leaders to make sure that it’s patient, as you said first, and being oriented to this, uh, to this mission, uh, and impact we bring to the world. It’s such a noble and responsible, um, purpose that we have.
Pravin Chaturvedi: Thank you, Naji.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you so much for being with me today.
Pravin Chaturvedi: a pleasure. Likewise. Thank you for inviting me.
Naji Gehchan: Thank you all for listening to spread love and organization’s podcast. Drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform
Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on spreadloveio.com. We’re eager to hear your thoughts and feedback. Most importantly, spread love in your organizations and spread the word around you to inspire others and amplify this movement, our world so desperately needs.
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Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love. I am Naji, your host for this podcast, having the pleasure to be joined by Basima Tewfik…More
My mantra has always been “Love and Discipline”, and here I am talking to an incredible physician, leader, and healthcare executive who believes in Love and thinks of success as being disciplined with a process in order to create the right habits. For Dr. Amre Nouh, leadership is about creating a common vision for the…More
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love. I am Naji, your host for this episode joined by a distinguished Professor of Management and founder…More
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love. I am Naji, your host today. So many times we hear about selfless leaders… Until you hear…More
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love. In this episode, get ready to learn and be inspired as I have the honor to be…More
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love. I am Naji, your host, having the pleasure to be joined by Dr.Amre Nouh is a physician…More
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love. I am Naji, your host for this podcast, having the pleasure to be joined by Dr Jennifer…More
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love. I am Naji, your host for this podcast, joined by Dr Yang, a thought leader and clinician…More
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love. I am Naji, your host, having the pleasure and honor to have with me today Christi Shaw,…More
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love. I am Naji, your host for this very special episode with Chinedu Echeruo, a serial entrepreneur, Dreamer…More
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love. I am Naji, your host for this very special episode like no other with Brie Doyle, founder…More
Naji Gehchan: Hello, leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love. I am Naji, your host for this podcast, having the honor to be joined today by Bridget…More
From leading teams on the front lines to now building organizations with a focus on culture, leadership, clinical innovation, and value maximization, we discussed in this episode with Dr. Dominic Abrams his story and leadership learnings. Dominic defines leadership with 3 words: value, purpose, and belonging. As leaders, we have to create an environment where…More
Many talks about authenticity in leadership, being true to self, and vulnerability, Lisa Matar exemplifies this leadership style and added to those words “imperfect” leadership. From a childhood spent in bomb shelters to being the first woman serving on the Board of Directors of Innovative Medicine Canada, Lisa summarizes her success through hard work to…More
We might not have similar stories though we certainly share a common passion and leadership belief: Leading from a place of love. In this new era and for our teams with newly articulated needs, we need to adapt and build the necessary leadership skills to deliver on our company’s purpose and results. For Hope Zoeller,…More
A single question Maheen Junaid think of daily as she leads her teams in her executive role: “What can we do for patients?” Having this as the true north for a healthcare company and living it is crucial as it ultimately simplifies decision making. In this episode, Maheen shares about her immigrant story, her leadership…More
“What really matters is impact”. Marcello Damiani started with this statement, and we all know now the impact he and his teams at Moderna had on humanity the past years. He has led teams through those times, delivered on an incredible challenge that became a hope then a reality: Covid vaccines. Hear him share those…More
We have read a lot about leading in crisis. Andrew Bunton has definitely done so, leading his teams during the Covid pandemic and reinventing patient experience in one of the largest retail pharmacies in the US. Hear his thoughts and takeaways also on leading transformations including omnichannel and how focusing on purpose, empowering diverse talents,…More
We all strive to have an impact on this world, to make life better for people, one at a time… Bridget Akinc exemplifies what leading with impact means through her daily work with nonprofit organizations. In this episode, Bridget shares her story, and sobering lessons we can all learn from as leaders leading in moments…More
This episode is special and the last in a series of three. In partnership with ESCP Business School, I’ll be giving the mic to students, the leaders of tomorrow, to discuss with seasoned healthcare executives about their journeys and leadership beliefs. We welcomed in this third episode, Dries Hens, physician, entrepreneur, and co-founder of LynxCare.…More
Have you ever thought about your networks? The different people who support you in different ways for you to be who you are and achieve your purpose? Glenna Crooks, innovator, author and healthcare expert has defined eight networks in our lives and showed that managing successfully those helps us succeed in improving our health, personal…More
This episode is special and the second in a series of three. In partnership with ESCP Business School, I’ll be giving the mic to students, the leaders of tomorrow, to discuss with seasoned healthcare executives about their journeys and leadership beliefs. We welcomed in this second episode, Olivier Nataf, President of AstraZeneca France who shared…More
This episode is special and the first in a series of three. In partnership with ESCP Business School, I’ll be giving the mic to students, the leaders of tomorrow, to discuss with seasoned healthcare executives about their journeys and leadership beliefs. We welcomed in this first episode, Jean Jacques Bienaimé, CEO of BioMarin who shared…More
Love driven leadership won’t have to deal with retention! People will thrive through the sense of belonging created. Leadership is truly about creating this environment and culture. Authentic impact is another responsibility for leaders. It should be deliberate and measured. It can’t be focused only on profits, it should seek to move communities forward. When…More
Nimble Organizations, Agile, X-Teams, Leadership… You will learn about all those in this incredible chat with Prof. Deborah Ancona! Vision, mission, and objectives are key but constitute only half of the story for a high-performing team. What differentiates high-performing teams is their ability to reach out and understand the larger organization, the wider ecosystem, new…More
Naji: Hello, leaders of the word. Welcome to spread love in organizations, the podcast for purpose driven healthcare leaders, striving to make lives better around the words by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership and love. I’m Naji, your host for this episode, we’re joined by Professor Loredana Padurean, associate dean at the…More
Naji: Hello leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, a podcast for purpose driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world, by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership and love. I’m Naji, your host today, honored to be with Dr. Barry Stein, chief clinical innovation officer and…More
Naji: Hello leaders of the word. Welcome to spread love in organizations, a podcast for purpose driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world, by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership and love. I’m Naji, your host, having the pleasure to chat today with Professor Amer Kaissi and discuss his…More
Naji: Hello leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, a podcast for purpose driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership and love. I’m Naji your host for this episode. And I am thrilled to be joined by an outstanding…More
Naji: Hello leaders of the world. Welcome to spread love in organizations, a podcast for purpose driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership and love. I am Naji your host for today’s episode joined by Dr. Mady a physician scientist, healthcare consultant,…More
Naji: Hello leaders of the world. Welcome to SpreadLove in Organizations, a podcast for purpose-driven healthcare leaders, striving to make life better around the world, by leading their teams with genuine care, servant leadership, and love. I’m Naji, your host for this exciting episode from our new series focused on us, as leaders. I still…More
Podcast available on:
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What if we start as leaders by sharing our own challenges, our vulnerabilities, our stories with our people? This might be the first step to bringing back humanity into leadership and building empathy with our teams. From engineering and technical expertise to leadership, executive coaching and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion role model, Angelique Adams shared her story, experiences, and learning with us. Focus on people, on their entire well-being and results at the same time, and most importantly care for the whole person they are. Finally, don’t forget to celebrate more your team, even the small wins!
“Help people have a seat at the table.”
MEET OUR GUEST Dr Angelique Adams, Author, speaker, and executive coach.
Angelique Adams is an author, speaker, and executive coach focusing on leadership development for scientists and engineers. Angelique is an engineer with 25 years of experience in operations, strategy, and innovation. She was Director of R&D at aluminum giant Alcoa, and Chief Innovation Officer at multibillion dollar steelmaker, Aperam. After leading hundreds of scientists and engineers around the world, she discovered her true passion is developing people, not products.
Following the successful publication of her first book for women in STEM in 2021, she launched Angelique Adams Media Solutions, a distribution platform for her books, online courses, and coaching programs. Her second book, for women executives in college athletics will be out this summer.
Angelique lives in Knoxville with her husband and 2 children. She serves on the board of several local nonprofits and volunteers her time to mentor entrepreneurs. She has a Ph.D. from Penn State and an MBA from MIT.
Podcast available on:
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Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Sustainability is all about: how are we on this planet and how are we with each other? We can’t continue living on this planet looking at the world as a “pyramid”, a lens of supremacy and extraction of natural resources and labor. Every year of delay means losses and communities we can not recover… Thinking of the world as an interconnected web is the most important action we can take as leaders in each of the decisions we make. Think of it in a staff meeting ensuring all voices are being heard, while building your next manufacturing site ensuring it includes all lives and flows, think of circular economies…. The most impactful projects are the small ones who started to fix a problem that resolved another and entered in a positive loop of change improving the broader environment and community. The key for leaders is to keep a role of learners as we tackle these issues and make disruption of inequities part of our priorities.
“Lead by thinking of the world as an interconnected web.”
MEET OUR GUEST Elizabeth Sawin Founder and Director of the Multisolving Institute.
Elizabeth Sawin is the Founder and Director of the Multisolving Institute. Beth is an expert on solutions that address climate change while also improving health, well-being, equity, and economic vitality. She developed the idea of ‘multisolving’ to help people see and create the conditions for such win-win-win solutions.
Beth writes and speaks about multisolving, climate change, and leadership in complex systems for both national and international audiences. Her work has been published widely, including in Non-Profit Quarterly, The Stanford Social Innovation Review, U. S. News, The Daily Climate, and System Dynamics Review.
She has trained and mentored global sustainability leaders in the Donella Meadows Fellows Program and provided systems thinking training to both Ashoka and Dalai Lama Fellows. Since 2014, Beth has participated in the Council on the Uncertain Human Future, a continuing dialogue on issues of climate change and sustainability among a select group of humanities scholars, writers, artists, and climate scientists.
Beth is also a member of the advisory board to the Kresge Foundation’s Climate Change Health and Equity Program. A biologist with a Ph.D. from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Beth co-founded Climate Interactive in 2010 and served as Climate Interactive’s Co-Director from 2010 until 2021. While at Climate Interactive, she led the scientific team that offered the first assessment of the sufficiency of country pledges to the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change in 2008. Beth also led Climate Interactive’s efforts to integrate measures of equity, health and well-being into decision support tools and computer simulations.
Beth trained in system dynamics and sustainability with Donella Meadows and worked at Sustainability Institute, the research institute founded by Meadows, for 13 years. She has two adult daughters and lives in rural Vermont where she and her husband grow as much of their own food as they can manage.
Podcast available on:
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- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Driven by curiosity, trying, failing, trying again while exploring the world, is what shaped Yacine Hadjiat’s incredible leadership journey. This curiosity led him to reinvent himself constantly, putting himself in vulnerable positions that taught him lessons we all should learn from: listen, ask, observe, understand, be open, stay humble and most importantly be benevolent as a leader. Start with the “who”, the people, the team to deliver exceptional innovations. Hear Yacine’s thoughts on digital health and innovation crystallized beautifully with his words “what excites me is what I don’t know yet, new vectors, new possibilities… digital will bring to health what internet brought to tech”.
“Define your why, bring the who, and work on the what.”
MEET OUR GUEST Dr Yacine Hadjiat Global Head of Biogen Digital Health Solutions
Dr Yacine Hadjiat holds medical degree with a specialization in Pain Management and supportive care (from both Paris Medical University and McGill University), as well as a MBA in Health Management. He has also completed several training courses and specializations in addiction, pediatric pain management, clinical research, health economics and Artificial Intelligence for Healthcare.
Throughout his career, he has covered several senior leadership positions in the pharmaceutical industry as well as clinical practice and academic medical research in Europe, US and Asia.
He started his journey in the pharmaceutical industry in France with Sanofi-Aventis in the Strategy and Public Affairs department before joining Grünenthal in Medical Affairs. He joined Mundipharma in 2011 in Paris where he served as Head of Medical Affairs for France, and then as Head of Medical Affairs for Europe based in Cambridge, UK, before moving to Singapore as Chief Medical Officer for Asia Pacific, Middle East and Latin America and Global Head of Medical for Consumer Healthcare. Currently, Yacine is the Global Head of Biogen Digital Health Solutions & Chief medical Officer. Based in paris, France.
Along with his career in the industry, Yacine had several years of clinical practice in pain and cancer care management including NGO work with Pain Without Borders especially in Africa and Asia and also fundamental and clinical research experience in the US at the National Institutes of Health (NIH) in Washington DC. He is also currently part of the French Health Institute (INSERM) in Public health research program.
Yacine also holds non-executive positions as advisor for governmental agencies in Singapore like the National Health Innovation Center (NHIC) and Entreprise Singapore, as well as MedTEch/healthTech incubators. He’s an author of several scientific publications from fundamental research science to clinical research projects, digital heath and health economics.
Yacine was recognised in 2018 as Top 50 Healthcare leaders at the SmartHealth conference in Dubai as a recognition for his work on equity in health and education. In 2019, he has also been awarded by the Association of Pharmaceutical Medicine Singapore (APMS) with the “Excellence in Medical Affairs Award” APMS is a chapter the International Federation of Associations of Pharmaceutical Physicians and Pharmaceutical Medicine (IFAPP).
Podcast available on:
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- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
We don’t get to sit every day with someone like Venerable Tenzin Priyadarshi. His journey was inspired by incredible leaders he was fortunate to meet along the way. Noble prize laureates, or powerful figures in their community, who triggered questions around how to live a meaningful life. For Venerable Tenzin, in the history of humanity, the challenge of leadership is today more crucial than ever. Despite so many leadership programs thought in the best schools around the world, we suffer from a lack of ethical leadership… When we look around us, we are living in a society increasingly marked by a sense of polarization. More fear and hate than love and compassion. The world has quite often chosen to operate from a place of despair rather than from a place of hopefulness. “Hope is a game-changer”.
No matter how small we think we are, individuals must recognize that they do have a voice, and need to exercise it; quoting Dalai Lama “if you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.” In a world where nothing is constant, maintain a healthy sense of curiosity and hopefulness, talk more with people who don’t believe in what you do …This is a powerful tool to value perspective in the complex society we live in.
This episode couldn’t have been timelier and resonate with the tense environment we are living in today.
“Aspiration + Reality = Hope.”
MEET OUR GUEST Venerable Tenzin Priyadarshi president and CEO of the Dalai Lama Center for Ethics and Transformative Values at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Venerable Tenzin is an innovative thinker, a philosopher, an educator, and a polymath monk. He is Founding Director of The Dalai Lama Center for Ethics and Transformative Values at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, a center dedicated to inquiry, dialogue, and education on the ethical and human dimensions of life. The Center at MIT has 6 Nobel Peace Laureates as its founding members and its programs run in 8 countries and expanding.
Venerable Tenzin’s unusual background encompasses entering a Buddhist monastery at the age of 10 to receiving graduate education at Harvard with degrees ranging from Philosophy to Physics to International Relations.
Venerable Tenzin serves on the Board of several academic, humanitarian, and religious organizations. He is a recipient of several recognitions and awards, including a 2013 Distinguished Alumni Award from Harvard for his visionary contributions to humanity.
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Have you heard the latest word defining great Leadership? Humbitous. For Amer Kaissi, award winning Professor, exceptional leadership is all about humility and ambition combined.
While ambition might sound familiar, humility comes in 3 layers. First, relationship with ourselves: it’s about self-awareness, being aware of our strengths and areas of improvements, and looking at our capabilities as accurately as can. Second, relationship with others: it’s about generosity and giving time and effort to grow others. Finding appreciation to the intelligence of the group and having a growth mindset to go into every conversation with curiosity and assumption to learn something new. Lastly, relationship with the world: Taking the time to ponder in the grand scheme of things and acknowledge how small and insignificant we are. This layer comes as an “ego dissolver”.
When thinking of ambition in leadership, it is not narcissism. Unfortunately, narcissists tend to be chosen more for leadership position, however in the long run, they are ineffective leaders because they are self-centered, and not good team players: short term turn around but no long-lasting impact.
I will leave us as healthcare leaders with this last statement from Amer ”In Healthcare, humility is amplified by 100 because we are in the business of compassion and empathy.”
“Humility is looking at your capabilities as accurately as can.”
MEET OUR GUEST Amer Kaissi an award-winning professor of health-care administration at Trinity University, a Top-15 program.
Dr. Amer Kaissi is a professional speaker and a certified executive coach. His most recent book is “Humbitious: the power of low-ego, high-drive leadership.” He is an award-winning professor of health-care administration at Trinity University, a Top-15 program. His previous book, Intangibles: The Unexpected Traits of High-Performing Healthcare Leaders, won the 2019 ACHE Book of the Year Award.
He is a national speaker and a faculty member with ACHE, the University of Colorado Denver, and Boston College. Amer is the director of the Executive Program at Trinity University, where he teaches courses in leadership, professional development, and public speaking. Amer works with MEDI — a division of Navvis — and with the Leadership Development Group as an executive coach, and consults with hospitals and other organizations in their strategic planning efforts. Amer is also a certified executive and physician coach. He lives in San Antonio, Texas, with his wife and their two teenagers.
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Looking back into your past, do you regret not taking the time to pause and cherish precious moments with your loved ones? Or not being there when they needed you the most? It is unlikely to listen to Christi Shaw and not pause and reflect on your personal story.
What strikes us is the strong sense of care, love, family and the desire to make an impact she conveys when sharing genuinely her story with us with all its highs and lows. Christi shares her lifelong learning and leadership philosophy “Never let success go to your head; never let failure go to your heart”. Because when you are at your best, you help people be at their best. For her, leadership is all about enabling others to move forward by leveraging what everybody brings to the table. It is about leading without labels, without hierarchy, and barriers to collaboration.
Listening to Christi, beyond respect, you can’t but admire her strength from miles away and the genuine soul behind the incredible leader she is… As she says, life is too short, and “we spend too many hours at work just to be respected and not loved”.
“My biggest learning: being compassionate and spreading love and caring at work is a good thing.“
MEET OUR GUEST Christi Shaw Chief Executive Officer of Kite.
Christi Shaw serves as Chief Executive Officer of Kite, a Gilead Company. Kite is the only company with global scale dedicated exclusively to the research, commercialization and manufacturing of cell therapy to treat cancer.
Christi is driven by values, integrity and a deep connection to people living with cancer and their loved ones after losing both her mother and sister to cancer. Under Christi’s leadership, Kite has received four FDA approvals for its CAR T-cell therapies in just four years for certain types of blood cancer and is working to bring CAR T to more patients. Kite recently released 5-year patient survival data, a significant milestone showing durable long-term survival and suggestive of a potential cure for these patients.
Christi currently serves on the board of directors of Avantor and the Healthcare Businesswomen’s Association (HBA) and is on the executive committee and the board of directors of the Biotechnology Innovation Organization (BIO).
Christi holds a bachelor’s degree in business administration from Iowa State University and an MBA from the University of Wisconsin. She resides with her husband and son in Santa Monica, California.
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
A transformational episode with a social transformer and thinker, Otto Scharmer. Hear in this episode from the creator of Theory U and the Presencing institute. The pandemic was a mirror of what is broken in our society. We all have a responsibility as leaders and change-makers to fix that, to improve the world, the planetary wellbeing. We can achieve that by sensing, feeling the emerging future possibilities, and embodying them now. Learning from the past is not good enough, we should learn from the emerging future… All we need to do is ask ourselves: What is mine to do? Find that one piece we are polishing as a leader and put it into the path of the future.
“Lead by activating the intelligence of the heart.”
MEET OUR GUEST Otto Scharmer, a social transformer, an MIT professor and incredible leader.
Otto is a Senior Lecturer at MIT and co-founder of the Presencing Institute. He chairs the MIT IDEAS program for cross-sector innovation and introduced the concept of “presencing”—learning from the emerging future—in his bestselling books Theory U and Presence. He is co-author of Leading from the Emerging Future, which outlines eight acupuncture points for transforming capitalism. His most recent book, The Essentials of Theory U summarizes the core principles and applications of awareness-based systems change.
In 2015 Otto co-founded the MITx u.lab and in 2020 the GAIA journey, which have activated a vibrant worldwide ecosystem of transformational change involving more than 200,000 users from 185 countries. Otto is a member of the UN Learning Advisory Council for the 2030 Agenda, the World Future Council, and the Club of Rome’s High-Level 21st Century Transformational Economics Commission.
Otto has won several prizes and received in 2021 the Elevating Humanity Award from the Organizational Development Network.
Podcast available on:
- Apple
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Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
A “global citizen” as he defines himself, a leader and multicultural manager, we had the pleasure to host Theodore Leondaridis in this inspiring episode! He shared about how he built a culture of feedback, a culture of trust, where people feel safe to say what they think and thrive towards the shared purpose of the company. Theodore defines leadership as being useful for people; what a great example of loving leadership!
“Get on the boat and change!”
MEET OUR GUEST Theodore Leondaridis General Manager at Pierre Fabre Spain.
Theodore Leondaridis is General Manager at Pierre Fabre in Spain. He always wanted to be a veterinarian but then decided otherwise! Moving to Basic Science then ESCP business school in 2013, he then joined Pierre Fabre as a trainee in Corporate Business Development. Theodore then had different experiences as Financial Analyst, Global Oncology Launch Manager, Oncology Business Unit Director in Portugal, along with different leadership responsibilities. Theodore is now heading Pierre Fabre Medical Care in Spain as the General Manager where he is leading a team of more than 250 people.
Theodore is a global healthcare leader, a husband, and a father of 2 amazing young kids.
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
From the island of Crete in Greece to the US, Georgia Perakis fulfilled her father’s dream. We wouldn’t have imagined that analytics could actually change the world and make a real difference. Georgia took it even further and talks about an analogy with data to understand the power of diversity and inclusion. Her pragmatic vision of using data is invaluable and makes us see things through a different lens. Start by filtering out the noise around big data and asking the big question: what is the problem I am trying to solve? Before big data, let’s start talking about “little data” and missing data to put things in order and see the big picture. Georgia definitely won her students’ hearts but also the analogy of the year by comparing MIT to a great candy store to choose from! Thank you for being who you are and for your exceptional leadership!
“The Love Large Numbers: Look at the long term goal, focus on the end outcome rather than looking at the present failure, persist… it will work out eventually.”
MEET OUR GUEST Georgia Perakis, Professor of Management, Operations Research, Statistics, and Operations Management.
Prof Georgia Perakis teaches at MIT Sloan courses and performs research in analytics, optimization, machine learning with applications in pricing, revenue management, supply chains, transportation, energy, and healthcare among others.
In her research, Georgia investigates the theory and practice of analytics and its role in operations problems. She has received numerous awards and has several prestigious publications.
Currently, Georgia serves as the co-director of the Operations Research Center, on the council for the College of Computing, and faculty director of the Executive MBA (EMBA) program at MIT Sloan. She is also the editor-in-chief of the M&SOM journal. Prior to that role, she had also served as America’s editor in chief of the Journal of Pricing and Revenue Management, as a department editor for the journal Service Science in the area of Analytics and as an associate editor for the flagship journals: Management Science, Operations Research, M&SOM, INFORMS Journal on Optimization, and as a senior editor for POM. She has served as the chair of the RMP Section of INFORMS and as the VP of Meetings of the MSOM Society of INFORMS.
Georgia holds a BS in mathematics from the University of Athens as well as an MS in applied mathematics and a PhD in applied mathematics from Brown University.
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
If you are looking for inspiration, straightforward and pragmatic advice, this episode is for you! Whether you are an entrepreneur looking to start and scale a business or a healthcare leader looking to have an impact, Monty’s authentic perspective will help you see things clearer. His favorite sentence “What the heck do I know” shows his powerful humility as he mentors hundreds of startups. Monty shares insights and guidance on how to build teams as an entrepreneur and build the crucial capabilities of a leader. Hope you will enjoy this open and candid discussion.
“Leadership has a moral obligation to help the team grow.”
MEET OUR GUEST Monty Sharma, serial entrepreneur, Managing Director of MassDiGI.
Monty Sharma is a serial entrepreneur, a mentor in several start-up programs, and currently Managing Director of MassDiGI.
Prior to joining MassDiGI, Monty, a respected game industry and technology professional, was co-founder and general manager of Vivox, a voice chat service provider in the games industry with key relationships to EA, Sony, Ubisoft, Nexon, Bigpoint, and many others. Monty advises a number of game companies and is a veteran MassChallenge and MIT Sandbox mentor.
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
From Brazil to MIT Professor of Accounting awarded multiple times by his students with teaching awards, Rodrigo is more than an accounting expert and teacher, he is an incredible human leader who cares for his people and students. Listen to the best lessons of life learned in kindergarten, and many other inspiring reflections in this episode!
“Legacy in life has to be the people… Those you touched.”
MEET OUR GUEST Rodrigo Verdi Professor of Accounting at MIT Sloan.
Prof Rodrigo Verdi joined MIT in 2006 after receiving a PhD from the University of Pennsylvania. He has taught financial accounting to undergraduate, MBA, EMBA, and PhD students over the last 15 years, and has received five teaching awards at MIT and Sloan.
Rodrigo is Senior Editor at the Journal of Accounting Research, and has previously been Editor at The Accounting Review and Associate Editor at Management Science. His research has been published in the premier accounting and finance journals and has also received the Distinguished Contributions and Best Paper Award recognitions by the American Accounting Association.
Outside MIT, Rodrigo has served as head of the Governance Committee on the board of the Cambridge Ellis School over the last three years and as Advisor to the Provost at Unisinos University, a Jesuit university in southern Brazil with more than 30 thousand students.
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
In 1972, an army doctor created the terminology “soft and hard” skills as he saw success resided not only in having people with strong machine operation skills but also in having individuals who could manage and supervise teams, along with other skills. Half a century later the world transformed enough for us as leaders to change the terms! In this episode, Prof Loredana Padurean shares her philosophy on the skills of the 21st century: SMART and SHARP! From “treating people like people”, to “love with massive humility”, Loredana, the Unapologetically Unconventional Professor, shares her incredible journey, great research stories, and her leadership beliefs, all with a very fresh perspective on the world of today.
“The job is easy, the people are not.”
MEET OUR GUEST Pr. Loredana Padurean Associate Dean at the all-new Asia School of Business.
Prof Loredana Padurean Associate Dean at the all-new Asia School of Business, a collaboration between the Central Bank of Malaysia, MIT Sloan, and an International Faculty Fellow at MIT Sloan.
Loredana is the Faculty Director for Action Learning and Innovation and Entrepreneurship at ASB. She has been an energizing force behind the establishment of the school. Under her leadership, the Action Learning program at ASB was recognized repeatedly as one of the most innovative programs in the world. She is an international keynote and TedX speaker. She has taught in various MIT Sloan executive programs, at IMD, as well as in major companies. Prof. Loredana has an MA in Communication and Economics and a PhD in Management from USI Switzerland.
Find more about Smart x Sharp and the white paper here.
Podcast available on:
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- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
36 episodes later, we are closing the year and our first season with a unique episode.
Going from the principle that everyone has a story worth telling, Jill Donahue hijacked the mic and turned the table… and the host became the guest.
“Everyone has a story to tell.”
MEET OUR GUEST Naji Gehchan or your host for the past 35 episodes.
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
High capability with low ego is the crucial combination for leaders of the future. It enables putting customers, businesses, purpose, and most importantly the people and the next generation of leaders before oneself. Hear from Prof Elsbeth Johnson on leadership, transformation, and more about the powerful framework she has developed after years of research on how to lead strategic change, and published recently in her great book: Step up and Step Back: How to Really Deliver Strategic Change in Your Organization.
“Great good ahead of benefit.”
MEET OUR GUEST Elsbeth Johnson Senior Lecturer at MIT Sloan and expert in leadership, strategy, and change.
Dr. Elsbeth Johnson is Senior Lecturer at MIT Sloan School of Management and an expert on leadership, strategy, and change. The main focus of her research is on what leaders need to do to help their organizations execute strategy, or deliver long-term, strategic change, without the need for the leader’s ongoing, personal involvement. Prior to joining MIT, Elsbeth was taught leadership at London Business School and London School of Economics.
Prior to academia, Dr. Johnson worked as an investment banker, a sell-side equity analyst, and a corporate strategist. She also spent three years as a special adviser to the first Blair Government in the UK.
As a consultant and executive educator, Elsbeth has worked with a range of companies, helping them develop their strategy and the capabilities and culture that will deliver it.
Podcast available on:
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- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
For our 34th episode, we talked to Enrique Conterno about his remarkable journey. Enrique talks about the importance of taking chances and risks in careers. There is no formula when it comes to building a sustainable business with strong performing teams. It’s all about centering and focusing on the common purpose and the key values. Enrique explains the importance of implementing a culture of empowerment in an organization, leading to more accountability, thus teams will genuinely contribute to the success of their organization. Enrique shares with us his vision on leading in moments of crisis – “It is critical to remain true to your value, stick to your north star, otherwise one can get lost”. Crisis challenges us on many levels, but it’s an opportunity itself if it is framed the right way. It’s all a matter of refocusing the priority and staying grounded. When asked about work-life balance, Enrique stresses the importance of time and space to replenish and refresh.
“It’s not about tough love, but rather true love.”
MEET OUR GUEST Enrique Conterno Chief Executive Officer at Fibrogen.
A native of Peru, Enrique is a mechanical engineer with an MBA from Duke. He joined Eli Lilly in 1992 and spent the next two decades working in the U.S. and internationally across sales, marketing, finance, business development, and general management roles. Enrique became the President of Lilly Diabetes in 2009. In addition to those responsibilities, he took on the role of President of Lilly USA in January 2017 before retiring at the end of 2019 after 27 years of service with the company. Enrique is now the CEO of Fibrogen.
Some great articles Enrique wrote in “Fortune” can be seen here.
Podcast available on:
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- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Daena Giardella’s background is quite unique, she has enjoyed dual careers in business organizational development and in the performing arts for over twenty-five years. She makes an analogy between art and leadership…Because both careers are all about making connections with people and telling the stories that need to be told. Daena gives us her perspective on fostering a safe culture while still being in the hybrid environment missing the human live connections. Today we are at an inflection point, with a strong generational awareness about the psychological dimension of life-work balance and most importantly what to expect from work. Daena’s word of wisdom to all leaders out there is to stop and reflect so they can repair and inspire and keep building exceptional things around them. Hope you will enjoy this heartfelt discussion, happy listening!
“Find a way to reflect so you can repair and inspire.”
MEET OUR GUEST Daena Giardella Senior Lecturer at the MIT Sloan School of Management and a Faculty Affiliate of the MIT Leadership Center.
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Daena has been an organizational leadership, teams consultant, and executive coach as well as a media, communication, and presentation consultant for over twenty-five years.
Before being a senior lecturer at MIT and teaching numerous amazing courses, Daena has enjoyed dual careers in business organizational development and in the performing arts. She combines these backgrounds to design innovative educational programs for numerous world-class companies, organizations, and academic institutions in the USA and abroad.
A fact I learned recently, Daena is also a talented actor who received kudos in the USA and internationally, the Boston Globe has called her an “impressive talent” and she definitely is an impressive talent, an impressive leader, coach, and an amazing person.
Podcast available on:
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- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
From impact as a front-line emergency physician to Chief Impact Officer, Dr. Adam Brown could not stay siloed in a single service line. He always believed in visionary leadership, powered by the trust component to be seen as the trusted voice. Dr. Brown takes us back to the early days of the pandemic talking about the number of deaths that could have been prevented, only if there were more trusted voices out there! We all assume there is health literacy and health illiteracy, whereas there are different types of literacy.
When asked about equity, Adam thinks that the concept is still misunderstood; equity is not about equality, because access doesn’t give you usage. To improve health, we need first to acknowledge the problem and identify the drivers of inequities, then start addressing all social determinants. Diversity alone is not the full answer to equality, neither is inclusion nor equity.; we need to have the 3 pieces of those parts to get to a sustainable solution. And this is only the beginning of a long journey! Thank you, Adam, for sharing your vision and genuine belief in the reality of humanity’s kindness and altruism.
“Equity is not about equality […] access does not mean usage.”
MEET OUR GUEST Dr. Adam Brown Chief Impact Officer at Envision Healthcare.
Adam began as a front-line emergency physician with progressive clinical and administrative roles throughout the mid-Atlantic and Midwest, becoming the President of the nation’s largest Emergency Medicine practice at Envision Healthcare. During the first waves of the COVID pandemic, he continued to serve as President of Emergency Medicine and was named Chair of the COVID Task Force for all specialties at Envision. That year, the CEO also appointed him to the role as an Executive Sponsor of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI). In 2021, he assumed the role of a newly created position at Envision as the Chief Impact Officer and has continued in his roles in the pandemic response and DEI.
As an emergency physician and healthcare executive, Adam has a driving passion to improve the lives of patients. Using the skills and influence he’s gained as a healthcare business leader and physician, he is expanding his reach to improve the health of millions of lives. His abilities as an outstanding communicator, visionary leader, and strategist position him as a recognized thought leader in the industry and beyond.
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
In every possible way, we are all made up of stories that we accept and acknowledge. These stories shape how we see and define ourselves. Growing up in an immigrant family of 8 adopted children, Gayle Grader was perceived as an outsider. This experience was foundational to who she is today and what she wants to achieve in life; “You can be the outsider and look in” Gayle says. By being the outsider girl, she learned the skill of observation and developed a curiosity in people and society.
In this episode, we discussed the common trait of leaders throughout history; answered complex questions, are we born or made leaders? Talked about optionality and how to mute the noise to find the signal and focus on the legacy we want to leave behind.
How we arrange the plot points of our story into a narrative, can shape who we are; and to know Gayle’s story is to know her philosophy and life’s ultimate purpose: Bringing impact and scale by helping talents unleash their authentic themselves to lead the organization.
“Be fully engaged with who you are…accept the peak and valley of your journey.”
MEET OUR GUEST Gayle Grader Executive Coach and Director of Executive Career Development at MIT Sloan.
Gayle Grader is an Executive Career Coach and the Director of Executive Career Development for MIT Sloan. She oversees the Executive Career Development Team and is responsible for setting the programming strategy, delivering career education workshops, and providing one-on-one executive coaching.
Before joining Sloan in 2018, she spent 13 years as a strategy consultant and business coach working with wide-ranging companies from Fortune 500 to start-ups. In her early career, before she took a hiatus to start a family, Gayle worked in consulting, investment banking, asset management, and executive search.
Gayle has a passion for understanding leadership and how great leaders become the people they are; she can be frequently found reading historical and contemporary biographies building up her perspective on what causes some to become those great leaders who go down in history books.
Podcast available on:
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- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Reflecting on a personal unfortunate experience, led her to understand the missing piece of the puzzle she was always trying to figure out. Jill Donahue understood early on that articulating the “Why” will only connect you more to the difference you want to make in the world and eventually impact patient outcomes. Jill is an avid reader and will always refer to studies and research to support what she preaches. In this episode, she referred to Daniel Pink, Autonomy, Mastery, and Purpose framework, being the key to exceptional performance.
Today, we have a greater set of expectations of our leaders that goes beyond delivering bottom-line performance and increasing shareholders value, because the ripple effect of spreading love and being purpose-driven is key to thriving in any organization.
“When you connect with your purpose, things will change for you.”
MEET OUR GUEST Jill Donahue Author, Speaker, Co-founder Aurora Project, Associate Editor at HS&M Magazine, and Cofounder of Excellerate.
Jill Donahue is on a mission to lift pharma! As a global thought leader in pharma, she won multiple awards for her work, author of 2 books (including the award-winning EngageRx: The 3 Keys to Patient-focused Growth), delivering talks at global conferences, publishing in industry journals, and serving pharma teams.
When Jill was 35 her father died of an avoidable prescribing error. As a pharma person reflecting on her family’s loss, she pictured the closed door. She, since then, strives to lift Pharma by inspiring our people to be more purpose-driven and enabling them to be more engaged and engaging. She believes in a world where pharma professionals contribute to better patient outcomes and better business outcomes simultaneously. Where they feel proud and can make a difference for themselves, their companies, and most importantly to patients.
Jill is the co-founder and managing director of Excellerate, She also co-founded The Aurora Project; a global volunteer group of thought leaders trying to illuminate commercial pharma’s path to patient centricity.
Here’s a list of Jill’s recommended readings with a summary of her take about each of them. Enjoy!
- The Infinite Game by Simon Sinek
- The Culture Code by Daniel Coyle
- Meaningful Work by Shawn Askinosie
- Everybody Matters by Bob Chapman and Raj Sisodia
- Intrinsic Motivation at Work by Kenneth Thomas
- Selling with a Noble Purpose by Lisa Earle McLeod
- Leaders Eat Last by Simon Sinek
- Give and Take by Adam Grant
- Taking People with You by David Novak
- The Purpose Economy by Aaron Hurst
- The Purpose Effect by Dan Pontefract
- Turn this Ship Around by David Marquet
- Grow by Jim Stengel
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
It is our responsibility as leaders to build fearless organizations. Organizations with low interpersonal fear for our people to be willing to speak-up their ideas, their beliefs, their thoughts, their experiments, their doubts, and team-up with one another for the greater good: it is not about me but about us. I had the immense pleasure to chat with Prof Amy Edmondson who pioneered work on psychological safety in organization and its importance in leading successful teams. Enjoy the practical advice and words of wisdom in this special episode.
“Love is an invisible force that keeps us going.”
MEET OUR GUEST Amy Edmondson, Professor of Leadership and Management at Harvard Business School.
Edmondson is the Novartis Professor of Leadership and Management at the Harvard Business School. She teaches, writes, and “ruminates” (as she says) on organizational learning, psychological safety, leadership, and teaming. Edmondson is one of the most renowned thought leaders who won multiple awards and published the best book we’ve read. Her most recent book, “Fearless Organizations: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation, and Growth” is a must – not only to read – but a must to learn and do in our organizations.
Her prior books – Teaming: How organizations learn, innovate and compete in the knowledge economy, Teaming to Innovate, and Extreme Teaming – explore teamwork in dynamic organizational environments. In Building the future: Big teaming for audacious innovation, she examines the challenges and opportunities of teaming across industries to build smart cities.
We will let you enjoy listening to this episode, and promise you to experience Edmondson’s impact on many of us leaders trying to make the world we all inhabit a better place.
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
“Integrity is the highest value that I have” Panos Alexakos summarizes in these words the purest version of leadership. You are not meant to be perfect, do not be afraid to talk about where you come from, your journey…and always make sure to check on the fire within you. Panos experience and reflections on his journey are so powerful and humbling. Fear keeps us human, and it is ok to show our vulnerability… Building a speak-up culture is more than ever what we need for us to navigate through all the crossroads that we come across in life.
“Never let your hands shame your face.”
MEET OUR GUEST Panos Alexakos, Head of Integrity & Compliance Novartis Pharmaceuticals European Region.
Panos Alexakos was appointed Head of Integrity and Compliance, Region Europe, Pharmaceuticals, in July 2018. He was previously Head of Central and Eastern Europe. Panos has been with Novartis for over 20 years and has worked in senior leadership roles in Greece, Germany, the UK and in Switzerland. Panos brings with him experience from Oncology, Specialty and Primary Care and also the Consumer Health Division.
In his role, Panos partners with the rest of the business to build the leading ethical pharmaceutical company in the world. Panos holds a Bachelor of Arts Degree in Mass Media Communications and a Masters of Business Administration. Between receiving his MBA
and joining Novartis, he served as an Officer in the Hellenic Military Air Force, and held Sales and Marketing positions with Johnson & Johnson Greece.
Panos was born in Athens, Greece and currently resides in Basel, Switzerland. When not working and not spending time with his family Panos enjoys participating in endurance events.
Podcast available on:
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- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Chatting with a leader whose passion and purpose is to develop innovative principled leaders has a special taste! This is what Johanna Hising DiFabio, Assistant Dean Sloan Fellows MBA and Executive MBA at MIT thrive for! Johanna’s inspiring personal story moving from her home country Sweden, to growing up in different European countries, then coming to the US to pursue her education, her personal experience with healthcare, and her passion for people, bring a different cultural lens of how communities come together to learn, both from their similarities and differences. Johanna is an incredibly inspiring leader fostering this lens of diversity and her leadership beliefs through the programs she leads at MIT, impacting hundreds of leaders joining those programs every year striving to invent the future.
“Have the courage to speak your opinion and truth.”
MEET OUR GUEST Johanna Hising DiFabio Assistant Dean, Sloan Fellows MBA & Executive MBA at MIT Sloan.
Johanna leads all aspects of the Sloan Fellows MBA & Executive MBA programs at MIT Sloan by collaborating with faculty on the development of innovative curricula; co-working with global organizations on action learning labs to help them meet pressing strategic issues; and, with us, students to create a learning environment that is second-to-none in terms of the personal development and career enhancement.
Johanna is passionate about leadership and leadership development and that is why she joined MIT a decade ago. There is no better place for that and it is reflected in MIT Sloan’s mission: “to develop principled, innovative leaders who improve the world and to generate ideas that advance management practice.”
Podcast available on:
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- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
In this special episode, you’ll hear from a serial entrepreneur who successfully sold one of his companies to Apple and is now dedicating his life to helping people achieve their own goals of imagination by “removing the dragons to human subjective progress”. He is now co-founder and “dreamer” of Love & Magic Company working with leaders and organizations on “magic” to turn potential into reality, putting structure in their imagination, making electricity, and bringing potential to life.
“Every uniqueness is a part of the human tapestry.”
MEET OUR GUEST Chinedu Echeruo a serial entrepreneur who has dared to invent the future.
Chinedu believes that individuals, empowered by imagination and inspiration, can solve virtually any problem. He dared to invent the future starting in 2005, when he founded HopStop, the pioneering travel app that helped millions of users navigate public transportation in major metropolitan areas around the world that Apple acquired in 2013. Chinedu also founded Tripology, a lead-generation and referral business for the travel industry. Tripology was acquired by Rand McNally and now owned by USA Today.
Chinedu cofounded “Love & Magic Company” to co-build beloved organizations with innovative partners.
Prior to completing his MBA, Chinedu spent several years at J.P Morgan Chase where he was involved in a broad range of M&A, financing, and private equity transactions.
Chinedu has been featured in multiple media, including and is committed to making the world a better, more cohesive place through the free flow of information.
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
From growing up in South Africa, in the apartheid era, to his early years in medical school, before moving to Canada and then the US, Barry Stein’s story and vision of the world is so humbling. Aware of the privilege he had in South Africa, Barry understood early on that you must develop a capacity of change management to change paradigm fixed in the mindset not only of a community but sometimes globally. In this episode we covered the aspects of innovation and entrepreneurship, being the catalyst and frameworks to solve problems in healthcare and accelerate new ideas for sustainable positive impact. When asked about change, Barry’s advice was to forget about interpersonal issues, surround yourself with people with talents, forget about the persona sitting around the table and focus on the mission and the vision that excites the group…. this is where the magic happens.
“You feel loved when you feel heard”
MEET OUR GUEST Dr Barry Stein, Chief Clinical Innovation Officer and Chief Medical Informatics Officer for Hartford HealthCare (HHC).
Barry Stein, MD MBA FSIR FACR RPVI, is the Chief Clinical Innovation Officer and Chief Medical Informatics Officer for Hartford HealthCare (HHC) where he also practices as a Vascular and Interventional Radiologist and is an Assistant Clinical Professor at the University of Connecticut School of Medicine. He has held numerous leadership positions including Chief Imaging Informatics Officer at HHC, Vice Chair of Radiology, Chief of Cardiovascular MRI & CT, and Director of the Advanced Imaging and Quantitative Analysis Core Laboratory at Hartford Hospital.
Barry graduated with his executive MBA from MIT Sloan School of Management. He received his post graduate medical training at Massachusetts General Hospital, Harvard Medical School, where he did his Radiology residency, served as Chief Resident, and completed fellowships in MRI and Vascular & Interventional Radiology. He received his medical degree from the University of Stellenbosch, Cape Town, South Africa. Barry is board certified by the American Board of Radiology in Diagnostic Radiology and Vascular and Interventional Radiology and is a fellow of both the Society of Interventional Radiology and American College of Radiology. He is a recognized expert in cardiovascular MRI and CT and was one of the pioneers in Magnetic Resonance Angiography. Barry continues to remain engaged at MIT serving on the Sloan Alumni Board, participating as an invited lecturer in courses on Innovation as well as Quantitative and Qualitative approaches to leadership, is a mentor for LinQ programs in the MIT Institute for Medical Engineering & Science, a host to students from the MIT Initiative for Health Systems Innovation, as well as a co-principal investigator conducting clinical and operational heath systems analytics research in collaboration with Sloan faculty at HHC.
Barry is currently focused on leveraging technology, and building a differentiated healthcare Innovation ecosystem at HHC, to accelerate clinical transformation.
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
In today’s episode, we get to sit with Julie Rachline, CEO at LallianSe. We will deep dive into Julie’s experience as an entrepreneur living by a very genuine motto: Be an opportunity for others!Taking us through her personal journey, and learnings on choosing people over projects, simply because good people lead to great projects and generate outstanding impact.
“Be an opportunity for others.”
MEET OUR GUEST Julie Rachline Founder and Chief Executive Officer at LallianSe since 2015.
PhD in Neuropharmacology and ESCP Business School Alumni, Julie Rachline is a serial entrepreneur and former VC driven by passion for innovation and science. With more than a decade of experience as an early- stage and growth capital investor in France and Europe combined with two years as a head-hunter, she founded LallianSe in 2015 and is the Integrator’s CEO since.
LallianSe integrator builds the foundations for better health by relying on the LallianSe community of Experts, which offers outsourced management of key responsibilities to steer operations towards success as well as hospital immersion, with coworking spaces combined with dedicated events for innovation in healthcare.
Julie is also co-founder and CEO of Braintale, leader of Invest Health, the commercial affiliate of EIT Health , evaluator for the European Commission with EIC programs and independent board member of DTA Medical, Virdis and TechToMed.
Podcast available on:
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- Spotify
“Be brave, and show your voice to the world.”
“All children are born artists” but how to remain artists as we grow up?
Do not put a ceiling on what you think, just like kids, do not be frightened to be wrong. Pause and focus on your inner WHY, What aspires you? What kind of footprint do you want to leave behind…
Let’s take 5min out of our busy schedules to pause and enjoy a mindful moment.
Thank you Andrea for always reminding us what really matters!
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
What can we take from being an art performer to becoming an exceptional leader? A silver line connects both: you have to shift your perspective and be genuinely interested in your audience, your people, allowing them to better connect with you. We all have a story, and we all have far more in common than what differentiates us. Understanding the core of humanity, our cultural background, experiences make us unique, appreciate each point of view… From his hard beginning in art to his unique experience in Nepal, to becoming a renowned performer and now an executive coach and leader, you’ll hear in this episode Rob’s stories and great advice for us to become better leaders, expanding our boundaries, bringing the quality of tolerance, appreciation of difference to a whole new level.
“Cultivate Positivity… Only if we have a positive view on the world, we are able to bring our best selves forward, and allow everybody else bring theirs as well.”
MEET OUR GUEST Rob Salafia an Author, Speaker, Executive Coach and CEO of Protagonist Consulting Group.
Rob combines two decades of experience as a top leadership development executive with a well- established career in the performing arts. He has a passion for coaching leaders to develop their presence, tell compelling stories and establish authentic connections.
Rob is the author of – Leading From Your Best Self – an amazing book I strongly recommend.
What is unique about Rob is that for the first half of his career he was a performing artist where he traveled the globe delivering his unique, one- person variety show. Rob is a lecturer in MIT Sloan School of Management and an MIT Leadership Center Master Executive Coach. Over the past 20 years Rob has worked with numerous Fortune 500 companies.
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
When asked about leadership, you certainly don’t expect to hear about basements and balconies… Our guest Lien Li is definitely not an architect but a dedicated Dr. with inspiring vulnerabilities, and powerful stories. Lien has a very interesting perspective on leadership and building performing teams: It’s all about leading from the basement! All the stories that came out of the pandemic confirmed her firm belief in the true role of leaders: “Find your own checkpoints and get other people back to the path you initially set”. Hope you will enjoy this heart-to-heart conversation as much as we did.
“Spreading love start by building human connections one at a time…maybe over a cookie.”
MEET OUR GUEST Dr. Lien Le, Medical Director of Inpatient Medicine at Newton Wellesley Hospital, Massachusetts.
Dr Le focuses on operations, strategic and business planning for the Hospitalist Division through partnerships with clinical services at Newton Wellesley Hospital and hospitals within the Mass General Brigham Health System. Most recently, Lien led COVID-19 physician redeployment efforts for the Division of Hospital Medicine as well as other key COVID-19 inpatient surge operations. She oversees strategy, budget, operations, recruitment, staffing, as well as professional development for the medical staff of the unit.
In addition, Dr Le is the co-founder of the Surgical Preparation and Negaviation Clinic, a perioperative clinic designed to risk stratify and optimize patients undergoing elective surgeries. Dr. Le continues her clinical practice as a hospitalist physician while also being an Assistant Clinical Professor at Tufts Medical School. Dr. Le received her internal medicine residency training at Boston Medical Center. She attended Dartmouth and Brown Medical Schools. She is currently a student at MIT Sloan Executive MBA program. Lien was born in Vietnam and immigrated to the U.S. at the age of 13.
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
What are the reasons and the differentiator that makes your organization a place you want to spend 8-10 hours a day working for? How to become an employer of choice? What is at the heart of your organization? Theresa Hummel-Krallinger an Emmy Award-winning comedian, senior training professional and performance consultant will tell us more about how to approach everything in the workplace from a place of love!
“When we come to work we have to bring our whole self…we cannot check our humanity at the door.”
MEET OUR GUEST Theresa Hummel-Krallinger Corporate Prophet and Laughologist.
Theresa Hummel-Krallinger an Emmy Award-winning comedian, well-respected senior training professional and performance consultant, founder of High Five performance, BUT it is her work as a humorist and motivational speaker that sets her apart. Known for her lively and interactive presentation style, she is a frequently requested speaker on topics of leadership, career management, organizational culture and workplace communications.
Theresa is the past president of the Greater Philadelphia Chapter of Association for Talent Development (ATD), and is the past president for a local Toastmasters club. She has been a featured speaker at numerous regional and international conferences. She facilitates “Meet the Author at the Pyramid Club,” which has been named one of the top 10 best networking associations by the Philadelphia Business Journal. She won an Emmy in 2019 for her work on the PBS talk show, “Counter Culture.”
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Get ready to have your mind challenged with what social impact really means! In this episode, we will dive into Angel Perez’ passion that became his company’s purpose to build a better world. The “promised land is not about the output but the impact”! With the U.N. climate change report this week, this episode couldn’t be more timely. We are in a “code red for humanity” leaving us all accountable for the future of the generations to come.
“Only companies that include impact at the core of their business will be successful in the coming years.”
MEET OUR GUEST Angel Perez Angejo founder and Managing Partner at Transcendent, a Business Impact consulting firm. He has an extensive experience in the pharmaceutical industry, leading commercial organization as a general manager and marketing leader.
Angel is the founder and managing partner of Transcendent, a consulting firm specialized in business impact, ESG active management, sustainability and definition/ activation of business purpose. Transcendent is a certified BCorp.
Over the last 4 years Transcendent has worked with multinationals, family businesses, public listed companies and SMEs in multiple sectors, as well as with fund managers.
Prior to Transcendent, Ángel worked for 20 years at Eli Lilly where, among other positions, he was Managing Director of Denmark and Senior Director for Marketing, Operations and Transformation for Europe, Australia and Canada.
He is also a visiting professor at the University of Navarra and mentor of social entrepreneurs.
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
From her experience as a journalist at CNBC in Korea to her move to the USA and now co-founding a biotech startup transforming research… Rhie-young Lim shares her story, and learnings inspired by her Asian culture, talking about grit and execution but most importantly about universal language, building a startup and performing teams working for a shared vision and purpose.
“Every different perspective makes us richer.”
MEET OUR GUEST Rhie-young Lim Chief Operations Officer at LifeCanvas Technologies. Rhie cofounded Lifecanvas, an MIT biotech startup that is transforming biological tissue processing and phenotyping to radically improve human health.
Since the startup’s incorporation 3 years ago, Rhie has successfully led fundraising and exclusive licensing efforts, and has grown the company to a profitable venture. She now oversees day-today operations spanning marketing, sales, distribution, as well as talent management and long-term strategy and planning. Previously, Rhie brought the very first overseas MIT entrepreneurship bootcamp to Seoul, South Korea and was a financial correspondent for CNBC Asia for 6 years!
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Episode 17 is here, and we are joined by Sebastian Sorsaburu, Vice President, Global Medical Affairs, Specialty Care Head at AbbVie. Sebastien has an interesting take on leadership, team building, and self-awareness. This episode is all about how to stay true to yourself and lead by example to get to a point where the “total of your work is bigger than the sum of the parts”. It is also a wake-up call to all leaders to nurture self-leadership, and practice self-awareness, and self-knowledge.
“We are the sum of our focused moments – Focus is the true multiplier.”
MEET OUR GUEST Dr Sebastian Sorsaburu Vice President, Global Medical Affairs, Specialty Care Head at AbbVie. Sebastian’s passion is to help bridge the gap between Scientific Innovation and Clinical Practice to help optimize Health Population Outcomes.
Dr Sorsaburu is a Physician executive with 20 years of portfolio management and leadership experience across Research & Development functions, in multiple geographies and therapeutic areas.
Sebastian is passionate about understanding and prioritizing effectively in 3 major areas.
- Building high performing teams by attracting, nurturing and developing talent, by fostering a culture of diversity, belonging and innovation, giving special attention to communication frequency and style.
- Driving Performance to deliver results that matter to patients, the organization and the broader enterprise.
- Shaping the future through horizon scan (science, clinical practice, policy, capabilities), dynamic organizational design and digital culture transformation to accelerate learning and performance operating under 3 principles to evolve the ways we work: autonomy, collaboration and speed.
Sebastian is the author of over 40 scientific documents including 20 peer-reviewed publications, regulatory safety and clinical trial dossiers, NDA and IND submissions.
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
In this episode, you will hear from Rob Brown, CEO of a biotech, talking about the core element of any business: The TEAM. He takes us down memory lane, from his different positions as an executive in marketing, sales, and HR, from pharma to biotech…
A common thread on this journey seems to be relevant to any sector or business: Following a strategy is one thing but owning it first is quite another. To get to this point you need strong leadership, which he defined as: “put the cause and the team First”.
“Lead with brutal honesty and realistic optimism – Honest and transparent along the way, but also realistic and authentic.”
MEET OUR GUEST Rob Brown Chief Executive Officer at Brickell Biotech after having spent over 30 years at Eli Lilly and Company, where he most recently served as chief marketing officer (CMO) and senior vice president of marketing from 2009 through 2018.
Prior to his role as CEO and CMO, Rob held the position of vice president and chief marketing officer for Lilly USA from 2007 – 2009, where he partnered with the business units to ensure the company continued to develop industry leading marketing capabilities, streamline and improve marketing processes, and transform marketing by building a consumer marketing center of excellence.
From 2003-2007, Rob was the executive director of marketing for the Intercontinental region, including responsibility for Europe. In addition, he held a variety of other leadership roles of increasing responsibility within sales, marketing and product management departments, including serving as general manager for China, where he helped the company establish its presence. During his tenure as GM, he managed a joint venture in Suzhou, oversaw the construction of Lilly’s first manufacturing facility and expanded the affiliate’s reach from 12 to 45 cities.
Rob joined the pharmaceutical industry after receiving a bachelor’s degree in economics from DePauw University and a master’s in business administration from Indiana University. Rob currently serves on the board of trustees of Franklin College.
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
An athlete and champion who took a pain-point for cyclists, and along with his co-founder Dr. Allen Lim, created a company now employing more than 100 employees. From accountability and grit to being real, empathetic, and radically candid, hear from a successful entrepreneur solving sports nutrition problems.
“Say what you mean with the other person’s best interest in mind.”
MEET OUR GUEST Ian MacGregor founder and Chief Executive Officer of Skratch Labs..
Ian Co-founded more than a decade ago Skratch Labs, a sports nutrition company based in Boulder Colorado that was recognized by Inc. 500 as the 3rd fastest-growing food and beverage company in the US. He is now the CEO. In 2007 he co-founded The Just Go Harder Foundation to provide mentorship opportunities for aspiring cyclists and ski racers. Ian is a former professional cyclist and two-time US National Espoir Road Cycling Champion. He holds a BS in Mechanical Engineering from The Colorado School of Mines and currently resides with his family in the small mountain town of Nederland, Colorado.
Podcast available on:
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Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
This episode is like no other. You will be hearing from Brie Doyle on how to take care of yourself as a leader – a key subject, yet rarely seriously considered by many of us. Great advice, tips, daily practices, and habits to build that will determine who you are!
That is the first episode of a series in our Spread Love in Organizations Podcast that will focus on helping us as leaders take care of ourselves to serve better our people and patients.
“Shut down the world around you to focus on your inner world.”
MEET OUR GUEST Brie Doyle hosts transformational wellness retreats throughout the US and across the globe and is the founder of She Glows Retreats, LLC.
Brie specializes in curating mental and emotional wellness curriculum for groups, conscious companies, schools and individuals. A yoga and meditation teacher for over twenty years, Brie is a leader in the health and wellness space who helps people heal their past and reclaim their power. Her first book, YOU SHOULD LEAVE NOW: Going on Retreat to Find Your Way Back to Yourself, comes out today. She lives in Boulder, Colorado, with her husband and three kids.
Podcast available on:
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- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
In this episode, you will hear from an international leader, walking us through her personal journey, starting with her upbringing in Australia in a very cosmopolitan environment, talking about all the diversity and richness you get from growing and thriving in such atmosphere to her experience in healthcare leading marketing teams in pharma across the world to bring science into something that resonates, touches and impacts people.
“Align on a common purpose that will drive your behavior… Look for the universal human truth.”
MEET OUR GUEST Gabi Mittas, Chief Marketing Officer Australia, New Zealand and North Asia Pacific Region at Eli Lilly.
Gabi is one of the most purpose driven, human centric leaders you’ll meet. She has an extensive experience in sales, marketing and commercial organizations across the globe. She led marketing teams in Australia, UK, US and Globally. She was Senior Director in Global Marketing Oncology before taking the lead of the marketing organization as Chief Marketing Officer for Australia, New Zealand and North Asia Pacific Region. Gabi is passionate about people’s development and how to positively impact patients’ journeys.
Podcast available on:
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- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
His passion is his purpose and goes beyond the duty. Patrick is a leader in Humanitarian, risking his life and leading his teams in the most challenging but most in-need communities in the world. He shares his experiences from Irak to African countries, leading with his heart and striving daily to make health a simple right accessible for everyone.
“Purpose is not how much you deliver, but how you deliver and lead.”
MEET OUR GUEST Patrick Youssef Director and leader for Africa in the International Committee of the Red Cross. In January 2016, he was recognized by the World Economic Forum as a Young Global Leader. He sits in the International Council of Advisors of Global Dignity.
Patrick Youssef joined the ICRC in 2005 and completed different missions in Sudan, Chad, Iraq and Guantanamo Bay. Between 2010 & 2013, he was the deputy head of operations for the Near and Middle East covering Yemen, the Islamic Republic of Iran and the Gulf Cooperation Council. Mr. Youssef was the Head of the delegation in Iraq for more than 2 years, before taking the role of Deputy Regional Director for Africa, where he managed ICRC operations in the Maghreb, the Sahel region, the Lake Chad basin and West Africa.
In addition to his field experience, Mr. Youssef worked on specific topics related to the respect of International Humanitarian Law such as the treatment and judicial guarantees of persons deprived of freedom, the recruitment of children in armed forces and Transitional Justice.
Prior to joining the ICRC, Mr Youssef worked in the private sector in Lebanon & the Levant.
Born in 1978, Patrick Youssef has a bachelor’s degree in public law, a Master’s degree in Diplomacy and Strategic Negotiations from Paris Sud XI, an LLM in International Law in armed conflicts from Geneva University, a certificate of completion of an Executive Education on Global Leadership and Public Policy from Harvard Kennedy School as well as a training certificate from the Oxford Said Business School on ‘’Transformational Leadership’’
Podcast available on:
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Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Hear about a passionate leader in healthcare, from her childhood inspired by 3 powerful women in her family to now giving back every day what others gave her to help diverse talents in her organizations, and also impact socially youth in the Brazilian favelas. Listen to what Karla thinks about innovation and why inclusion means dancing!
“Stay humble to keep learning.”
MEET OUR GUEST Karla Alcazar is an international leader passionate about making life better for people around the world through driving innovation in her organizations and leading with genuine care. Karla is General Manager of the Brazilian affiliate in the pharmaceutical industry, with an extensive experience in the sales, marketing and general management.
Karla is a native of Mexico and joined Eli Lilly as a Market Research Manager in Mexico in 2006. Her first four years within the business were spent in assignments in marketing and sales before moving to the United States of America to assume a Global Brand Leadership Role. In 2013, Karla returned to Mexico to lead the primary care business then took over the responsibility of leading the BioMedicine Business Unit of Latin America, Caribbean and Mexico. In 2015, she assumed the role of Senior Director, Chief Marketing Officer of the LACAM region overseeing the marketing functions and leading the digital transformation within the business, before moving in January 2018 to lead as the General Manager the Brazilian affiliate.
Karla holds a bachelor degree in Business Administration (ITAM – Mexico) and a Master in Business Administration – MBA from Tulane University, USA.
Karla is a member of the CEO’s Committee at INTERFARMA (Pharma Trade Association), American Chamber (AMCHAM) and a Board Member of United Way Brazil.
Podcast available on:
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- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
I am joined by Stefan Bauer, a transformational leader who will share his deepest beliefs about creating a caring and loving environment to foster the leadership of the 21st century and answer the dilemmas our world is facing. This episode is like no other, going from spirituality to concrete business concepts and results, we are sure it won’t leave you indifferent.
“Fostering a human environment creates a different energy that connects people with their purpose in life.”
MEET OUR GUEST Stefan Bauer is a Transformational international leader, Organizational Architect, Consultant, Coach and Speaker.
Stefan has more than 26 years of HR experience in a global US-based pharmaceutical company: HR line management, Organizational Development, Leadership Development.
Experienced designer and facilitator of high-impact interventions and global leadership development programs for Executives, General Managers, high-potentials, Leadership Teams. Extensive change management experience, including generating an innovative, agile organizational culture of the 21st century. Coach of transformational leaders, Executives, General Managers, high-potentials. Based in Germany; international assignments in USA and Brazil.
Core competence: transformational leadership, organizational transformation, “new work”. Previously 10 years experience in a global US-based IT Corporation.
Speaker on transformational leadership at international conferences, Business Schools, and Universities; cited in books, numerous articles, and interviews.
Podcast available on:
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Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Botox_Your_Brain #Make_It_Happen #Agility_Is_An_Attitude, Geraldine lives by those hashtags! A business transformer, digital enthusiast, artist, executive, leader, citizen of the world so many powerful words can help us draw an image of who she is. Through her diverse, impressive life and career in different types of organizations including healthcare, one common thread defined her learning: “it’s all about the Human”.
“Doubt. Think. Believe in yourself. Dare to try. Re-do it again and again.”
MEET OUR GUEST Geraldine Maouchi is an expert in Business Transformation. The last 6 years Geraldine has been leading Digital Transformations as a C-Level, member of Executive Committees in Retail, Luxury and Healthcare. She was one of the first CDO to have joined the Chief Digital Officer Club in 2013.
Since 2000, Geraldine Maouchi developed twofold expertise – both online and offline based on her vision of a Hybrid model blending the traditional and digital. She worked across Europe, the US, the Middle-East, and Brazil, for all kinds of organizations (start-ups, SMC, groups, family business, entrepreneur, NGO), and in various industries (high-tech, telecom, hospitality, luxury, healthcare, retail, eBusiness…).
Geraldine is, as well, Guest lecturer for the HEC Master and MBA “Shaping Strategies in a Digital World” elective course and Board Member of the EMlyon “Specialized Master in Digital Transformation, Marketing & Strategy”.
Geraldine wrote several articles that were published in various media in Europe, USA, Middle-East, those include:
– Transformation in post-covid new normal (hybrid organization and holistic management): Will the new normal see the advent of novel leadership and hybrid organisations, The Economist Intelligence Unit, July 2020
– Building hybrid organizations (where online and offline merge) for both traditional companies and pure players: “The 4 steps towards a Hybrid organization” co-written with Affiliate Professor at Master of Strategy HEC Business School, Hélène Musikas, Forbes France, Q4 2019.
– Digital Bulletin UK “Keeping Up with Digital Transformation”
Podcast available on:
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Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
In this episode, you’ll be getting a booster shot by hearing from an amazing leader who believes that leadership is a privilege. Harout will give you his recipes of success building highly engaged and performing teams. You’ll be positively surprised to hear the first ingredient!
“Even if we are standing, the world is turning and changing.”
MEET OUR GUEST Harout Semerjian, a seasoned global pharmaceutical leader with a passion and focus in Oncology. Harout was elected top 10 emerging pharma executives in 2018, a strong believer of leading with care to deliver results for the patients we serve.
Harout is a seasoned biopharmaceutical leader with more than 25 years expertise in commercializing specialty medicines across the United States, Europe, and emerging markets. He has built a reputation for building high-performance teams, leading transformations, and delivering exceptional results. He has deep expertise in oncology, hematology and rare diseases having launched more than 20 specialty products or major indications over the years. Harout spent 17 years in Novartis where his last role was Senior Vice President and global head of Ribociclib, the CDK4/6 inhibitor. Then he moved to Ipsen to be the Chief Commercial Officer and recently for a short period was the Chief Executive Officer of Immunomedics before its sale to Gilead. Currently, Harout works as a consultant and investor within healthcare.
Harout is passionate about healthcare disparities and coaching talent to achieve their full potential. In his spare time, he spends his time traveling with his family despite having a heavy travel schedule, as it provides an opportunity for his daughters to connect and expand their horizons.
Podcast available on:
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- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
A physician saving every single day lives through the mobile Extracorporeal Membrane Oxygenation program he created, a heart, lung machine. Jason built the most competitive network without competition… Because “sometimes you just have to change the game”! Since Jason led this change with his strong passion, creativity and courage, he believes his teams are continuously “re-writing what they know” and reshaping what once was the best of care. Listen to sobering and inspirational stories from Dr. Gluck and how he leads his teams through change and moments of uncertainties.
“The power is in the word yes.”
MEET OUR GUEST Dr Jason Gluck Director of the Mechanical Circulatory Support (mechanical heart/lung) Program at Hartford Healthcare Hospital..
Jason is a physician, founder of the Extracorporeal Membrane Oxygenation program and creator of the first and only mobile ECMO program in Connecticut, bringing this lifesaving technology to patients in need throughout New England. He invented, ‘VLAD’, a medical simulator family for training patients, families, pre-hospital emergency medical care and hospital-based providers about patients supported by mechanical pumps. Dr. Gluck publishes and speaks internationally on mechanical support and acute cardiogenic shock. He has a passion for jazz and enjoys hiking, biking, and skiing!
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
So many times we hear about selfless leaders… Until you hear and meet Daphne, you obviously didn’t really see what selfless leadership is. Her mission in leadership is “fighting for the underdog”. Daphne is an impressive humble leader we can all learn from.
“It can never be about oneself, but the opposite.”
MEET OUR GUEST Dr Daphne Haas-Kogan, Professor and Chair of the Department of Radiation Oncology at Dana-Farber Cancer institute, Brigham and Women’s Hospital, Boston Children’s Hospital and Harvard Medical School..
Daphne is a Radiation Oncologist, thought leader at Brigham and Women’s Hospital, Dana-Farber Cancer Institute and Boston Children’s Hospital. She is a Professor at Harvard Medical School. After her Biochemistry and Molecular Biology degree from Harvard University, Daphne received her M.D. from the University of California, San Francisco. While at UCSF she served as Vice-Chair for Research and Educational Program Director. Daphne has been elected in 2019 to the National Academy of Medicine, considered one of the highest honors in the fields of health and medicine. She has been selected as one of the top physicians in the United States by several publications including Best Doctors in America.
Podcast available on:
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- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Physician, Harvard Medical, MIT, Serial Entrepreneur, Textile Business Owner in Egypt, Start-ups, Stem cells, what else? Hear from a talented innovator, multi-disciplinary mind, and business savvy physician living his life with the same thread since his childhood: being human. From his early childhood in his father’s textile manufacturing site to now leading startups and his family business, he thrives to learn more every day, genuinely cares for his people, leads with purpose and does business for good.
“To be a good human is a shortcut to be a great leader.”
MEET OUR GUEST Dr Ahmed Mady is is a serial entrepreneur, healthcare consultant and a physician-scientist. He is currently pursuing his Executive MBA degree at MIT Sloan in Boston while serving as the Managing Director of his family textile business in Egypt.
Prior to this role, he worked as the Senior Director of Business Development at an innovative Boston based diabetes management startup, Healthimation, and as a Senior Consultant at Navigant Consulting where he led numerous global life sciences/healthcare projects in pharmaceutical, med-tech and biotech spaces. In addition, Dr. Mady has experience conducting translational research at the Cardiovascular Research Center at Harvard Medical School/Mass General Hospital. His laboratory/clinical research is focused on stem cell applications in Heart diseases and Diabetes, where he investigated differentiation of stem cells into mature heart cells, and created human cardiac tissue engineering models.
Ahmed earned his Medical Degree from Alexandria University in Egypt, having done several rotations in Internal Medicine and Cardiology in the United States.
Dr. Mady has over 14 years of experience in healthcare business, manufacturing, medical research, and technology management.
Podcast available on:
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- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
The metaphor of the year? Red Queen from Alice in Wonderland. Women and Leadership should be synonyms. Digital is a chance. Spread Love in Organizations should be integrated at work to show what is best in human being… Those are only parts of an incredible, genuine, and surprising discussion with Bogdana Coudsy! Hear from the leader heading the medical team of vaccines in the pandemic and what made her team thrive every day helping humanity.
“Do not deny at work what is the most beautiful in human being.”
MEET OUR GUEST Dr Bogdana Coudsy is the Vice President, Head of Global Medical Franchise for vaccines specifically at Sanofi-Pasteur. A medical doctor by training and pharmaceutical marketer by trade, Bogdana has an impressive resume and career.
Bogdana has held consequential leadership roles across the globe at Johnson & Johnson, Procter & Gamble, and now leading the Medical Team of Influenza franchise at Sanofi-Pasteur as a leader and expert in vaccines and immunology. She makes a daily population-level impact on public health on the front end these days!
Bogdana is an impressive leader with a wealth of experience across the globe, and an avid learner. With all she has to lead during those moments, she is also investing her time in an Executive MBA in Paris.
Podcast available on:
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- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Have you ever walked one million steps in 35 days; carrying your life in a bag-pack, walk and reflect? Going through this experience, “you just be”. From the impostor’s syndrome to the Camino de Santiago in Spain, walking us through how he combined the red energy and drive with even more crucial leadership skills: empathy, harmony and authentic care. An episode full of stories, and real-life experiences, from early-career advice to life-learning experiences as an executive in the Healthcare Industry. An episode, you start and you won’t be able to stop!
When asked about diversity and inclusion, Jeremy recommend reading “Delusions Of Gender” by Cordelia Fine. The book made him reflect on privileges and the importance of building environments where people feel respected and every person can bring their own self.
“You can’t serve others until you care about yourself.”
MEET OUR GUEST Jeremy Morgan is a global healthcare senior Executive with an extensive experience in the bio-pharmaceutical industry across the globe. Jeremy is currently Senior Vice President leading the rare disease business at Kyowa Kirin. He has a passion for people, diversity and inclusion and enjoys very long-distance walking.
Jeremy started his career as a research biologist and then joined Eli Lilly in 1986 as a sales representative going through multiple assignments in the UK, USA and France with increasing responsibility before becoming a General Manager in 2003 for the company’s operations in Turkey. Further General Management jobs followed in Australia and then Germany before taking on the leadership of international Diabetes business covering Europe, Japan, Canada, Australia and NZ. After retiring in 2017, Jeremy took the opportunity to try something different and consulted in the market access space for a couple of years before returning to his passion and joining Kyowa Kirin International to lead the rare disease business.
Jeremy is a champion of diversity and inclusion in the workplace and brings extensive external engagement experience from multiple charity and industry boards including EuropaBio.
Jeremy is Welsh, married to Clare – has 2 kids and lives just outside Cobham in Surrey, UK. In his spare time, he enjoys all sport, long distance walking and loves to cook.
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
A Thought Leader, Clinician, Chair and most importantly a genuine, humble, inspiring leader driving efficiency and clinical care redesign by leading her teams with empathy, care, and love. From leadership roles at Harvard Medical School to President of Pratt dermatology associates and Chair of Dermatology at Tufts University School of Medicine, Dr. Clarissa Yang has always been passionate about bringing exceptional care for patients. Hear about how she led towards a caring culture and navigated through the tough moments of the pandemic.
“Lead how you like to be led.”
MEET OUR GUEST Dr Clarissa Yang is a thought leader and clinician dedicated to delivering high quality, compassionate, clinical care to her patients.
She believes in constant improvement and re-evaluation of clinical care systems and in developing the next generation of doctors.
Clarissa is the President of Pratt Dermatology, Dermatologist-in-Chief at Tufts Medical Center, and the Chair of Dermatology at Tufts University School of Medicine where she is responsible for the strategic clinical, educational and research success. She also serves on the Board of Trustees at Tufts Medical Center. Previously, she held leadership roles at Harvard Medical School.
Clarissa grew up in Canada and obtained her medical school training at McGill University. She focuses on operational efficiencies, integration of technology, and clinical care redesign. and has been awarded “Top Doctor” by Boston Magazine since 2017!
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
Podcast available on:
- Apple
- Spotify
If you want to hear from a leader who knew every person’s birthday in his 100+ team, a manager whose passion is to find and develop the next generation of leaders who will change the world, tune in and hear from John Bamforth! An inspiring story with strong advice for all of us leading our teams towards success with genuine care and love.
John’s recommended readings: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us, The Obstacle Is the Way, Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World.
“Remove the shackles and let people fly!”
MEET OUR GUEST John Bamforth is originally from the northwestern part of the UK but emigrated to the US in 2001. He now holds dual citizenship. A pharmacist with a PhD in neuropharmacology, John joined the Pharma industry in 1989 with Eli Lilly. Spending most of his career in commercial functions, he became recognized as a builder of global brands and leader of highly engaged teams.
After retiring from Lilly after 30 years, John returned to academia to lead the Eshelman Institute for Innovation at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. The institute was created by a $100M gift from Dr Fred Eshelman and is focused on translating the brightest and best ideas on campus into products and services that impact patients. In his current role, John continues to advocate for diversity and inclusion and its demonstrated impact on performance and innovation.
John is on multiple boards including the Structural Genomics Consortium and Akanocure Pharma, where he is chairman of the board. He is also interim Executive Director of READDI, a public-private partnership founded to develop novel anti-virals for the next pandemic.
John’s passions outside work are his family, he has two children (Thomas and Rebecca) with his wife Sue. They also have two West Highland Terriers, Luke and Lucky, who he takes for endless walks.
John and Sue founded the Ciara Arts and Science Foundation in 2017 to support college scholarships for disadvantaged youth. John is a keen golfer and general sports geek. He loves to attend big sports events like the Masters, Ryder Cup, Super Bowl and Rugby World Cup.
Podcast available on:
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- Spotify