Middle Movers Podcast: Recent Episodes
Six & Flow
Marketing professionals that aren't yet in senior leadership roles come together to discuss their journey so far, share career advice, and the joys of being at the individual contributor or manager level.
Before going into Product Marketing and leaving the corporate world, Mike earned his Ph. D in Film Studies. Some of his favourite movies include The Thing and The Witch. Currently, he's working in forensic tech at an organisation that builds tools for public and private spheres to protect against cyberattacks.
Mike talks about product marketing fundamentally being about presenting and representing product(s) as well as possible. As product marketers, you "live" in the centre of a venn diagram. You talk to customers, but also work with go-to-market teams internally to enable strategies. You have to be on top of trends, gather competitive intelligence, and think about the use case and need rather than the literal use of the product(s) your org presents. His advice for success? Foster an innate sense of curiosity and willingness to dig deeper, and get as much technical understanding for the product you market so that you can speak well to the benefits.
How did Mike get into product marketing?
When he was looking to change career paths, he wrote out his job wish list on a white board and came to learn that product marketing checked all of the boxes. Moving from education to product, he found that he's still collecting information to put something larger together and looking at a variety of sources. You learn how to learn, how to work, and be adaptable when you come from academia; don't be afraid to pivot.
Storytelling and applying it to daily life
Growth is very possible as a PMM, and it's important to ensure everything being put out is providing value and valuing the time of your audience. Mike strives to tell the most valuable story each time, which personally makes him happy as a consumer.
Over the course of the pandemic, he's been striking a balance between productivity and rest/recharge time, as well, which is why not wasting people's time is especially important to him. He intentionally improves by networking with people in similar roles, and unintentionally improves by continuing to purpose curiosity (this includes picking up a fantasy novel and letting his mind wander).
Advice from Mike
- Pay attention to new discoveries because you don't always know what's relevant to what you're doing right away
- Talk to people who have the jobs you want — be genuine and respectful in your outreach
- Reflect on your current role and what you like and don’t like (before reaching out^)
- Make sure that you tell your story, don’t leave it to other people’s imaginations
LINKS
Company websites:
Magnet Forensics: magnetforensics.com
Six & Flow: sixandflow.com
Socials:
Magnet Forensics: https://twitter.com/MagnetForensics
Six & Flow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/sixandflow
Khadijah on Twitter: https://twitter.com/KPSixandFlow
Product Marketing organisations:
Product Marketing Alliance
Pragmatic Institute
Books:
The Wheel of Time
Movies:
The Witch (2015)
The Thing (1982)
Kendall and Khadijah used to work together at Vidyard. Kendall is now a "boomerang" Hootsuite employee. For those who don't know, at the crux, Hootsuite is a social media management tool.
Kendall was originally there in 2015 on the blog team, working on SEO, content calendar, and generally more educational content. Now as a Campaign Content Manager, she's able to expand her skill set in content marketing, as well as repurpose content to get eyes on it.
She loves being part of a larger content team, and despite the pandemic-induced shift in collaboration, she and her team have found ways to have working sessions and informal coffee chats to build those connections that are similar to an in-office experience.
Biggest differentiators between Content Marketing management and Campaign Content management: Now more focused on outbound strategies that focus on brand, executing on larger campaigns, and compiling original data.
Predictions/hopes in marketing: Brands leading with purpose—policies, processes, actually starting at the top of the org and then all the way through. She wants to see companies being truly public about their stance on certain issues, rather than being performative.
Self-improvement: Kendall's a big fan of always learning and never assume you know everything. Since the start of the pandemic, she's been taking online courses to detract from Netflix after work in the areas of leadership and strategic copywriting. As someone that hopes to teach about content and be a people leader one day, these are incredibly useful things to hone in on.
Advice for folks looking to do campaign content: Don't underestimate how important project management skills are (planning, strategy).
General advice for creatives: Keep a "swipe file" to save all of the inspo you come across, and a "kudos" doc for positive feedback you've received.
LINKS
Company websites:
Hootsuite: hootsuite.com
Six & Flow: sixandflow.com
Socials:
Hootsuite on Twitter: https://twitter.com/hootsuite
Six & Flow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/sixandflow
Khadijah on Twitter: https://twitter.com/KPSixandFlow
Kendall on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kendallmlwalters/
Newsletters:
Ann Handley's Total Annarchy: https://annhandley.com/newsletter/
Animalz: https://www.animalz.co/newsletter/
Six & Flow is the first agency role for both Loua and Khadijah. Although all of her previous job experience is in marketing, Loua wanted to join an agency to fill her knowledge gaps because you don't know what you don't know. Since joining, she's learned that the idea of an agency not being a permanent fixture in a business isn't always the case, shown through our efforts to foster really deep relationships and ongoing relationships with our clients.
For both of the ladies, they love the culture at Six & Flow. It's such a diverse cast of characters and despite nearly half of the team not having met in person (and three team members being in North America), there's still such a strong sense of connectivity and bonding. Although the team was close knit before Khadijah joined, she's found it very easy to feel comfortable, fit in, and get to know folks on a personal level. They both also love the variety, amount of learning opportunity, and being able to learn from their colleagues in so many areas.
Just before the new year, Loua was promoted into a leadership position. In her first couple of months, she's learned what she needs to be better at, and to view each day as a learning opportunity towards becoming a better leader. She's also heard many times that you're either a people manager or a project manager, and that you can't be both...but that myth has quickly been debunked.
Loua's advice for anyone thinking about joining a marketing agency is this: Aim to fulfill something in you and not just the job. As well, go in clueless and absorb everything. Even if you have marketing know-how, an agency is a different kettle of fish to being in-house.
BONUS: Loua is now out of lockdown, and Khadijah is in one (as predicted 😭) and we talk quite a bit about the home reno.
LINKS
Companies
The Challenge: the-challenge.org
The First Mile: thefirstmile.co.uk
Six & Flow: sixandflow.com
Podcasts
Criminal: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/criminal/id809264944
Casefile True Crime: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/casefile-true-crime/id998568017
Katherine Ryan Telling Everybody Everything: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/katherine-ryan-telling-everybody-everything/id1507148315
Socials
Six & Flow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/sixandflow
Khadijah on Twitter: https://twitter.com/KPSixandFlow
Jaclyn has been at D2L (Desire 2 Learn) for a few years now. She's been the thumbs behind their Twitter account, and building the bridge between social media and public relations (PR).
In regards to the pandemic, Jaclyn noted that there's been real growth in the EdTech space. Not only have a lot of education institutions shifted to entirely online learning, but a lot of companies are also looking for ways to provide digital access to the resources for their employees. Whether it be opportunities for upskilling, or onboarding new employees, a Learning Management System has been a key player over the last year.
As a social media manager, Jaclyn does her best to stay on top of all of the latest and greatest on the various platforms. Right now, she's loving Tik Tok, and Instagram is still at the top of her list because of the visual aspect and the increasing variety of content that she is now able to create (such as Reels).
Her hot take prediction for 2021: Though it probably doesn't have longevity, Clubhouse will be key in changing the vanity aspect of social media, being that no one has to be on video. Some great discussions have been happening, plus there's the perk of having access to all sorts of folks you may not have been previously able to interact with in such an intimate way.
LINKS
Companies:
D2L: d2l.com
Six & Flow: sixandflow.com
Websites:
Jaclyn's blog: https://jayywing.com/
Socials:
D2L on Twitter: https://twitter.com/D2L
Jaclyn on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jayywing
Jaclyn on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jayywing/
Six & Flow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/sixandflow
Khadijah on Twitter: https://twitter.com/KPSixandFlow
Braveen is one of the brilliant minds behind the Shopify content marketing team. He specifically focuses on the merchant audience. He and Khadijah are "LinkedIn friends" and connected back when Khadijah was thinking about what was next for her in her career.
Before he got into the marketing space, Braveen studied English and had dreams about writing comedy for television. Luckily, even though he's not doing that officially, he's never short of jokes on his social media platforms (like Twitter). When he was working closely on the Shopify Masters podcast, they were seeing about a million annual downloads...something we can learn from over here!
When it comes to content marketing, what Braveen loves about it is how intentional and deliberate it is. He goes into it remembering that everyone's context is unique, and that content marketing allows you to teach at scale. You have the chance to provide education, entertainment, and inspiration with every piece that you produce.
Here are his general steps for content creation in content marketing:
- Ideation
- Creation
- Distribution
- Measurement
- Follow-up
- Optimization
In terms of what he's hoping to try next, Braveen would love to learn more about Performance Marketing and really get hands-on with it. Overall, he views learning as play and has been using his personal time for side projects and interests (like learning how to code). He believes that learning how you learn is very important for both personal and professional development.
His advice for people getting their start in marketing: Don't say you're bad at anything. Even if you have minimal knowledge in a certain area, don't use the opportunity to discount how well and quickly you're willing to learn, or the definite possibility that you'll improve in that area if you are willing to put the work in.
LINKS
Companies:
Shopify: https://www.shopify.ca/
Six & Flow: sixandflow.com
Books:
Flowers Are Just Tiny Trees: https://thetumblrpoet.com/products/flowers-are-just-tiny-trees-book
Socials:
The Tumblr Poet on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thetumblrpoet/
Braveen on Twitter: https://twitter.com/braveenk
Six & Flow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/sixandflow
Khadijah on Twitter: https://twitter.com/KPSixandFlow
Khadijah and Pallavi discuss growth marketing, advice on landing your first marketing role, building confidence and overcoming imposter syndrome, and Clubhouse.
Before going down the path of marketing, Pallavi studied Health Sciences. In her current role at Fonolo, she's responsible for sales enablement, lead generation optimisation, analysis in her day-to-day. Out of those four aspects, she mostly enjoys sales enablement due to creativity and optimisation — this ties in with her overall enjoyment of marketing. Pallavi also appreciates the level of experimentation that a growth marketing role provides.
Before Fonolo, Pallavi worked more on the digital marketing side of things (including events and comms). This included focus on SEO, ABM, and being deep in the weeds of social media.
Pallavi finds crossover between having to understand numbers, the opportunity for sales enablement, and the concept of customer demand and experience being king.
How did she get here?
After gaining business interest in high school, talked to folks in her current network that were already doing the work she was interested in… and learned marketing is central to a company–always.
Given her field of study, she was more than willing to do internships, and pitched herself based off transferable skill. She eventually landed an internship at a Tech/SaaS company and shadowed all departments before transitioning to their marketing team full-time.
Tip 1: Don’t limit yourself to what you’re studying.
The ladies agreed that you never stop pitching yourself/selling yourself as you move down your career path. This is you showing you’re willing to learn while also showing that you’re teachable.
The biggest selling point that you have: You’re hungry to learn.
You don’t need to know everything. Nobody’s actually expecting that. The main expectation (a lot of the time anyways) is a solid thought process and willingness to complete tasks. Don’t undervalue yourself, regardless of “newness” in a field.
As growth marketers, working closely with sales allows for direct connection to the customer, and being able to get the right info that can directly influence marketing strategy.
To improve in her craft: Pallavi keeps hawk eyes on different campaign/launches, listens to podcasts, and plays around with the tech stack available to you and finding resources to improve your use of them.
Overall advice for those in the job search: You don’t need to know what you want to do next. Look at every role holistically. Is most of the job description what you’d like to do? Don’t limit your options by the job description. Be confident, and sometimes you have to fake it ’til you make it. Have confidence that you’re capable. Take note of likes, dislikes, wants — look at it like relationship-mapping.
When you’re in the role you want: Be attentive to managing up and down appropriately. Set expectations. The key to managing up and feeling secure and equipped: Doing as much as you can to make your boss’s life easier. This reflects well on you, and makes you indispensable to the org as you get into the habit.
Pallavi's overall career wants: See value in work; feel challenged; continue learning, better herself; still have things as part of her identity outside of work.
LINKS
Company sites:
Fonolo: fonolo.com
Six & Flow: sixandflow.com
Socials:
Fonolo on Twitter: https://twitter.com/Fonolo
Six & Flow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/sixandflow
Khadijah on Twitter: https://twitter.com/KPSixandFlow
Newsletters:
Morning Brew: https://www.morningbrew.com/
Khadijah and Sara discuss the ways marketing is both creative and analytical, influencing human psychology and behaviour, the joys of having a real business impact, ditching business books to become a better storyteller, and the "empathy era."
At Alyce, they're all about the '5 to 9,' or the stuff that makes you a whole person outside of work. A big part of Sara's role is working with customers to really understand who they are as a person, and telling their story.
While at Drift, Sara was straddling the marketing and growth teams on different occasions. The growth team ran very much like a product team, right down to the sprint format.
Her views on marketing as a whole include:
- Benefits of being able to prove that the marketing team isn't just a business's "art department" and that the stickiness comes from being able to prove revenue generation through data
- Smaller startup teams give you a wide lane to be in, and a bigger "box" to put yourself in
- Building a community is more important than ever, and what is impressive today is being a real person and doing things that don't scale in the same way a mass email does
When it came to starting Self Control & Cheese, someone (who later become a guest on the podcast)suggested to Sara that she put her ideas somewhere that she owns them. On LinkedIn, she's big on making posts around career growth and other topics of interest, and she gets a lot of engagement on there. The podcast is just another way of expressing those thoughts alongside her co-host, Bridget.
LINKS
Companies mentioned:
Alyce: alyce.com
Drift: drift.com
Six & Flow: sixandflow.com
Podcasts mentioned:
Self Control & Cheese podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/self-control-cheese-shit-no-one-talks-about-at-work/id1529095184
Skimm'd from the Couch podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/skimmd-from-the-couch/id1345547675
Books mentioned:
Circe: https://www.amazon.ca/Circe-Madeline-Miller/dp/0316556327/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=cersei+book&qid=1616008437&sr=8-1
Principles of Influence: https://www.amazon.ca/Influence-Practice-Robert-B-Cialdini/dp/0205609996/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=principles+of+influence&qid=1616008460&sr=8-2
Socials:
Alyce on Twitter: https://twitter.com/alycegifts?lang=en
Sara on Twitter: https://twitter.com/sara_pion
Self Control & Cheese on Twitter: https://twitter.com/selfcontrol_chz
Six & Flow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/sixandflow
Khadijah on Twitter: https://twitter.com/KPSixandFlow
Khadijah and Daniela used to work together at Bridgit, a Canadian construction tech company. At the time, Khadijah was the sole Content Marketing Specialist and Daniela was the Marketing Campaign Specialist. Now, Daniela the Senior Marketing Manager on a team that's grown quickly over the last year.
When it comes to marketing, Daniela encourages her fellow marketers to:
- Be ready to pivot and execute quickly
- Find work-life balance and have hobbies
- Be intentional about networking and mentorship
- Improve through making mistakes
The ladies also discuss what it's been like going purely virtual for events and the predicted surge of direct mail campaigns. To improve her craft, Daniela has dove deep into seeking mentorship and networking opportunities, and stresses the importance of being willing to pay it forward to up and coming marketers that have the courage to reach out to you.
LINKS
Companies:
Bridgit: https://www.bridgitsolutions.com/about
Six & Flow: sixandflow.com
Socials:
Bridgit on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bridgitsolutions/
Six & Flow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/sixandflow
Khadijah on Twitter: https://twitter.com/KPSixandFlow
We reflected on the past year during the pandemic and how important empathy from organizations is, and that we've both been fortunate enough to experience through the leaders we work for.
As someone working at HubSpot, a company with one of the most hype marketing conferences ever (Inbound), he had a first-hand look at what taking that online could mean. As things continue to evolve as a result of the pandemic, Justin predicts that there will be a great deal of popularity around hybrid events. Why? Well, the reach. Of course, nothing is quite like being in person at a conference, but they were able to give access to so many more people through going virtual for Inbound, and he thinks it's something that could be a permanent fixture.
Justin is a big believer in chasing real world experiences before deciding to enrol in an MBA. It's not that he doesn't believe in the value the Master's program can bring, but he does believe that the experience you gain in the field is invaluable for understanding what you do and don't want to be doing when you enter the business world.
He urges folks to remember that your career path doesn't have to be linear (as someone who used to want to climb the standard marketing ladder towards CMO). Being open to opportunities will expose you to so many different skills, people, and additional opportunities as you continue to go outside of your comfort zone.
LINKS
Companies
HubSpot: hubspot.com
Six & Flow: sixandflow.com
Socials
HubSpot on Twitter: https://twitter.com/HubSpot
Justin's art Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wickedtappedart/
Justin on Twitter: https://twitter.com/JustinGraci
Six & Flow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/sixandflow
Khadijah on Twitter: https://twitter.com/KPSixandFlow
Salman and Khadijah met while working at Vidyard as outbound sales reps. Khadijah was working in the SMB sector, while Salman had more of a focus on the customer support use case at companies of all sizes.
Since leaving Vidyard, Salman has moved into the world of product marketing, and is fresh into his second PMM role at Unbounce. As you can imagine, making the shift from sales to marketing can be a lot for one's brain to process, but both agree that the connection between the two become more obvious once you actually make the switch.
Salespeople have the opportunities to:
- Connect with prospects and customers
- Understand their pain points
- Understand what would improve their professional lives
- Pass vital/timely information to GTM teams
When you're in product marketing, you're working with this information to provide meaningful solutions based on what the market (a.k.a. customers) are looking for. As Salman put it, it's more about working on the business versus in the business. You bear the responsibility of helping the company to improve and puts its best foot forward based on data and learnings.
As marketers, overall we need to be customer-centric. If you're a marketer that doesn't think that what you do serves the customer, it may be the time to step back and re-evaluate. The customer is the market, and therefore using the term "customer-centric" as a marketer is redundant (or at least this is Salman's hot take).
LINKS
Companies
Unbounce: unbounce.com
Miovision: miovision.com
Vidyard: vidyard.com
Six & Flow: sixandflow.com
Socials:
Unbounce on Twitter: https://twitter.com/unbounce
Six & Flow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/sixandflow
Khadijah on Twitter: https://twitter.com/KPSixandFlow
Khadijah and Jude worked together at a startup in Toronto–both on the marketing team. Khadijah was the content person, and Jude was a digital marketer focused on paid advertising. Now, Jude is still doing ads as a Demand Generation Manager at Clearbanc (which has recently expanded into the United Kingdom).
Before Jude and Khadijah met at work, Jude was working for the Sick Kids Foundation and learned a lot of her marketing fundamentals there. As she moved more towards ads/digital, she learned that she loved the creative aspect of this type of role being paired with data and analytics that allow her to truly understand the impact of the campaigns that she runs.
When it comes to buzzwords and terms, both ladies agreed that "growth hacking" could be left behind, and that ABM was on the rise. Even though organizations have likely been doing ABM (account-based marketing) whether they knew it or not, there is so much more messaging around it and clear structures for how to execute on it.
On the note of messaging, both agreed that at the start of the pandemic, there were quite a few hits and misses in terms of covid-themed messaging from companies. In short, the hits really hit and the misses were coming across as the "saviour" for people in an unprecedented time of crisis. We're all just trying to figure it out, even a year later.
When it comes to marketing, Jude really emphasized that she loves how fast-paced marketing is. The term itself she finds to be overused, but it's great being able to constantly switch between tasks and projects. Even if the final product is months down the line, the work leading up to that point can really keep you on your toes.
LINKS
Companies
Sick Kids Foundation: sickkidsfoundation.com
Clearbanc: clearbanc.com
Six & Flow: sixandflow.com
Socials
Clearbanc on Twitter: https://twitter.com/clearbanc
Six & Flow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/sixandflow
Khadijah on Twitter: https://twitter.com/KPSixandFlow