Conversations about Consultation: Recent Episodes
Emma Kennedy, Zahra Ahmed, Jessica Rowley & Emily Crosby
Welcome to our podcast, Conversations about Consultation.
This is a series of digital audio files, made with a wide range of guests who have been generous enough to share their thinking on the topic of consultation in education. Our aim is to provide thought-provoking and engaging content that you can access at times and in places convenient to you, growing out of our shared interest in consultation.
Emma teaches a module on the M4 doctoral training in educational psychology that includes consultation, and Jessica, Emily and Zahra are all doctoral students currently on placement in local authority settings making use of consultation in their work.
Consultation has any number of different definitions and models. Given our training and background, we are especially interested in consultation as it is used in schools and community settings. We see consultation as a particular type of professional helping relationship, one that holds central the idea that it is the relationship between the consultant and those with whom they work that makes the difference. However, one aim of Conversations about Consultation is to speak with guests who perhaps use different lenses, modalities and approaches and who offer something unique and distinctive that can complement or contrast with our own. It may be a current trainee on a different programme whose research interests include consultation, or an early career practitioner reflecting on consultative working in schools. We speak with experienced practitioners from other disciplines who bring their expertise in working with children young people and their families; as well as psychologists who have been working in the field of consultation research and practice for many years.
We hope you will find a conversation to listen to that engages your interest, offers a different perspective or even just provokes a new question or idea that leads to further conversations of your own.
You can follow us on twitter to join in the conversation at @TheCACpodcast
We are so lucky to have with us Dr Jeffrey Brown and Starr Greensky. Jeff is currently an assistant professor at San Diego State University, on the School Psychology Program and Starr is a Student and School Psychology intern, working with Jeff. We speak with Jeff and Starr about the development and application of Jeff's and other colleagues multicultural, gender, and sexually diverse affirming school‐based consultation framework. We also speak about contextual influences, colonialism and working with in a diverse community. We were so privileged to speak with Starr and Jeff, they shared such interesting insights. We hope you enjoy listen to this episode!
Dr Anwen Marshall graduated as an Educational Psychologist from Bristol University in 2021. She currently works in Bristol City Council where she also holds the role of ‘person-centred champion’. She supports person-centred work in her service and with colleagues. Before training as an Educational Psychologist (EP), Anwen worked as an Assistant EP in London for two-years, based in a primary school.
For her doctoral research, Anwen explored EPs’ views on children and young peoples participation in consultation meetings. This involved of two phases of data collection, phase one was an online questionnaire and phase two consisted of appreciative informed semi-structured interviews with EPs.
Her research found a difference between beliefs and current practice, where trainee EPs/EPs generally believed in the benefits of participation, but EP practice often not mirroring this. Attitudes, facilitators and barriers were explored and Anwen very generously shared some of these on todays episode. Anwen also share elements from the model for participation she created as a product of her research. The model considers both systemic strategies and practical meeting strategies. We were really privileged to speak with Anwen about her research and hope this promotes reflection on our practice.
We were so privileged to speak with Laleh Laverick in this episode about such a range of important factors influencing schools at the moment. Laleh speaks from a wealth of expertise and experience from her role as a Leadership and Management Adviser at Hackney Education as well as the various roles she has held in inner city primary schools for over 20 years.
Prior to joining Hackney Education, Laleh served as an Executive Headteacher of 6 inner city schools. She was also an NLE linked to a Teaching School and as part of her work, she supported ‘Women Leading in Education’ and ‘BAME leadership’ programmes. Before becoming an Executive Headteacher, she worked in range of roles many of them in the field of inclusion and curriculum development. She has also served as a school governor. Laleh has published articles in the Chartered College of Teaching’s journal and in journals on Early Years Education. In recent years, she has supported school leaders through management and system changes. Laleh believes that schools are at their best when their vision and ethos are clearly communicated by school leaders to all stakeholders and the culture of schools is one of high ambition for their communities.
We loved speaking with Laleh about so much of her experiences working in various roles in UK schools. We reflect on the current factors influencing schools in London and SEN departments generally, as well as the important role of understanding varying professional cultures when contracting and collaborating. We hope you enjoy listening to this episode and we look forward to reading some of your reflections about the topics discussed!
Today we are so privileged to have with us Dr Lauren Kaiser, PhD, NCSP is a Nationally Certified School Psychologist (NCSP). Currently, Dr. Kaiser is an Associate Professor and Program Coordinator for the School Psychology Graduate Program in the Psychology Department at Millersville University near Lancaster, Pennsylvania, in the United States.
She received her Bachelors degree in Elementary Education, and earned her Masters and Doctoral degrees in School Psychology from the University of Maryland, College Park. Prior to her faculty assignment, Dr. Kaiser worked in a variety of professional capacities within urban, suburban, and rural schools over the past 20-years, across eight states in the U.S. She served as an elementary school teacher; school psychologist; and a trainer, consultant or coach of Instructional Consultation Teams and the Double Check and Bullying Classroom Check-Up programs. Her teaching and research interests are school consultation, teacher coaching, consultation training, and implementation science to help promote safe, supportive, equitable, and instructionally matched school environments for all students. Dr. Kaiser serves on the editorial board for the Journal of Educational and Psychological Consultation.
She co-facilitates the NASP Consultee Centered Consultation Interest Group with Dr. Danny Newman. Dr. Kaiser and Dr. Newman were recently invited to co-author Best Practices in Instructional Consultation in the NASP Best Practices 7 series. They have worked together on several projects investigating the use and effects of deliberate practice training on the development of consultant communication micro-skills and consultation efficacy, which have resulted in peer-reviewed manuscripts and conference presentations. Dr. Kaiser’s initial consultation research focused upon the acceptability and effects of the Instructional Consultation and Instructional Consultation Teams model. Presently, Dr. Kaiser also serves as a consultant on large-scale training grants investigating the training and efficacy of the Double Check Classroom-Check-Up Model, a teacher coaching model which focuses upon enhancing culturally responsive teaching and student engagement. She has co-authored a chapter on innovations in coaching for the Handbook of School Mental Health: Issues in Clinical Child Psychology, as well as co-presented in invited national conference panels on the topic of school coaching to enhance equity in school discipline.
We spoke with Lauren about her research into teacher satisfaction, seeking feedback, training novice consultants and ongoing learning and supervision of consultation. We hope you enjoy listening and reflecting on this episode!
We are so lucky to have spoken with Dr Catherine Kelly and Dr Esther Kambe Kuria about their recent publication on social justice in Educational Psychology in Practice. Catherine is an Assistant Director for the Doctorate in Educational and Child Psychology at the University of Manchester and an Educational Psychology for Bury Metropolitan Borough Council. Esther graduated from the Doctorate in Educational and Child Psychology from the University of Manchester and currently works in Cheshire East Local Authority. In this episode, we touch on a range of topics from attunement skills and group consultation to intersectionality and social justice principles within educational psychology services. We loved speaking with Esther and Catherine and have learnt so much from this conversation. We hope you enjoy listening!
Article Reference: Esther K Kuria & Catherine Kelly (2023): Exploring social justice principles within an educational psychology service, Educational Psychology in Practice, DOI: 10.1080/02667363.2023.2226857
Dr. Collier-Meek is a licensed psychologist and Board Certified Behaviour Analyst. She is currently an Associate Professor of School Psychology at Teachers College, Columbia University. She also serves as an Associate Editor for School Psychology and provides reviews to several journals, for which she has been twice honoured as reviewer of the year. Mel’s research interests includes implementation science and conducts applied school-based implementation research. She has specific expertise in intervention fidelity and teacher consultation. We loved speaking with Mel about her work on implementation science and refectioning on consultation using a DisCrit lens. We hope you enjoy this episode :)
In this episode we were honoured to speak with Dr Dale Bartle and Dr Xavier Eloquin, two of the three editors of the "Learning from the Unconscious" book which explores Psychoanalytic Approaches in Educational Psychology. We thoroughly enjoyed speaking with Dale and Xavier and we hope that this episode stimulates curiosity and reflections about consultation practice.
In this episode with speak with someone of the co-founders for the trainee led initiative TEPICC, which stands for the trainee initiative for cultural change. We were very lucky to speak with Jason, Hannah and Yasmin who all co-founded TEPICC along with Mickel Johnson, who was sadly unavailable to record the episode. Jason, Hannah and Yasmin all completed their doctoral training from the Tavistock and Portman NHS foundation trust. Jason and Yasmin currently work as Educational Psychologists in the London borough of Hackney and Hannah works as an Educational Psychologist in Barnet Educational Psychology Service. We thoroughly enjoyed speaking with TEPICC about their formation, hopes for the group and reflections on practice and consultation. We hope you enjoy the episode!
In this episode we were honoured to speak with Cathy and Louise about their recent publication regarding a framework for developing consultation practice. Dr Cathy Atkinson is the curriculum director of the initial doctoral programme for educational psychology training at the University of Manchester and Dr Louise Jones is a Lead Specialist Educational and Child Psychologist at Lancashire County Council. Louise also completed her thesis in consultation practice and the application of Motivational Interviewing in consultation. We speak together about some of the elements of the National Association of School Psychology (NASP) framework which informed their approach and the integration of motivational interviewing techniques in our practice. We hope you enjoy this episode as much as we enjoyed recording it!
Dr Cyril Pickering is a school psychologist who currently lives and works in Washington, DC. He received his Masters and PhD from the School Psychology program at the University of Maryland. Cyril was a contributor to the book "Becoming a School Consultant", which reflects on the experiences of consultation trainees as they learn the craft. His chapter, "Relationship Building and Objectivity Loss", documents lessons he learned while building effective collaboration with teachers. Cyril currently works in two school programs which serve youth and young adults who are incarcerated. We really enjoyed speaking with Cyril in this episode about the importance of relationship building, truly hearing the teachers concerns and believing in the process of consultation. We hope you enjoy the episode!
On this episode we were honoured to have with us Dr Daniel Newman, who is currently an Associate Professor on the School Psychology Program at the University of Cincinnati. Among several professional service roles, Dr. Newman is also the current editor of the Journal of Educational and Psychological Consultation. We touch on his research on teaching, training and professional supervision for consultation. We really enjoyed speaking with Danny and hope that you enjoy listening!
Dr Ellie Sakata graduated from the Educational Psychology doctorate from Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust in 2021 and is now working as a qualified Educational Psychologist at Hertfordshire County Council. In this episode, we explore Ellie's thesis which looks at Culturally Responsive Practice in EP work and the the self-reflective framework she created as part of her thesis. We talk about how we can incorporate and reflect on culturally responsive practice within our work with schools, parents and CYP.
Dr Grace Giles graduated from the ed psych doctorate at Nottingham University in 2020 and is now working as a qualified EP at Sandwell Educational and Child Psychology Service. Grace did her thesis looking at the intersection of Motivational Interviewing and Consultation and her thesis title is 'Using sequence analysis to explore the role of motivational talk in consultation' which we talk about in this episode alongside lots of other consultation things!
We're exited to be speaking with Dr Rachael Green, a passionate and experienced Educational Psychologist who speaks with us about using Dynamic Assessment (DA) in EP practice. Rachael has spent over 17 years training and supervising trainee EPs and has worked in a number of local authorities over the span of her longstanding career. She is now currently the director and lead EP at Head Ways Psychology and recently developed a new approach to EP assessment called the ‘Multi-Aspect Model of Learning’ (MAML), which based on the work of Vygotsky and designed around DA principles, to be used in everyday EP practice.
It was a real honour and pleasure to speak with Rachael and we hope you enjoy listening!
Today we speak with Helen Shaw, an experienced Organisational Consultant. Touching on social defences, group dynamics and the importance of collaboration and boundaries, she raises curiosity of what might be happening for schools/organisations.
It was a pleasure to be apart of this thought provoking discussion around taking a systems psychodynamic approach to organisational consultation and we hope you enjoy listening!
Today we are speaking with Professor. Shaalan Farouk a senior lecturer at New York University in Abu Dhabi. Shaalan previously worked as an Educational Psychologist in London for over 20 years. He completed his PhD in Organisational Psychology at Birkbeck College, University of London. Shaalan’s publications on group process consultation and teacher emotions continues to have an impact on the work of Educational Psychologists to date. His current interest lie in narrative psychology approaches and focusing on the autobiographical memories of adolescents excluded from school. We hope you enjoy this episode!
We're meeting with Zahra Ahmed a year 2 trainee Educational Psychologist completing her doctorate at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust. This short episode sadly says goodbye to two of our talented and loved co-hosts and a big welcome to Zahra. We share are some of the things that we hope the podcast will continue to explore and discuss some of the learning that will be taken away. Jessica and Emily still have a few more episodes coming out, so it's not goodbye just yet! But we do wish them the very best of luck in their final year of training!
Today we are speaking with Professor. Aaron Fischer, a licensed psychologist and board certified behaviour analyst. He is also dee-endowed professor of school psychology and adjunct assistant professor of psychiatry at the University of Utah. He is also director of the Huntsman Mental Health Institute Home programme interdisciplinary paediatric feeding disorders clinic there too. He has worked with children and young people with Social Emotional and Mental Health (SEMH) difficulties and their families for over 15 years now. His research interests lie primarily at the intersection of technology, behaviour and mental health, particularly, in tele-health and tele-consultation and how these apply to school psychology.
In this episode we speak with Robin Solomon - an esteemed consultant social worker from The Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust. Robin currently works in the fostering adoption and kinship care team and before this worked for 16 years as a senior lecturer at Brunel University, where she taught Child Care Social Work at graduate and postgraduate levels.
Robin's particular interests lie in relationship-based practice in social work and she has written extensively about a psychoanalytic approach to this work.
We talk in this episode about how some of these themes can be explored and applied in psychological practice, particularly to Educational Psychology.
In this episode we speak with Patrick Langford, a now newly qualified EP from the Institute of Eductation, who completed his thesis exploring what makes consultation effective in EP practice.
We talk about all things consultation, particularly thinking about the application of consultation theory to practice and a consideration of what consultation is and how this might differ depending on your training institution or experience. Patrick discusses some of his findings from his thesis and what this might mean for the profession.
We found this a really stimulating discussion and hope you enjoy listening to hearing Patrick speak with us.
In this episode we speak with Professor Antoinette Miranda from Ohio State University. Antoinette is a professor of School Psychology in the Department of Educational Studies at Ohio State and has several research areas of interest and publications in these areas including thinking about effective interventions with at-risk children in urban settings, consultation services in urban settings and the development of racial identity and its relationship to academic achievement. She has also been teaching cultural competence in school psychology practice to school psychology students. We think this topic is so important and we hope you find the conversation as stimulating and enjoyable as we did to speak with Antoinette.
We are really delighted and exited today to be speaking with Sharone Maital and Ingrid Hylander.
Emma met both Sharone and Ingrid through the International School Psychology Association conference, or ISPA for short, where they were both co-chairs of the consultee centred consultation task-force which is part of ISPA.
Both have had a long involvement with training psychologists IN consultancy as well as BEING practitioners and prolific publishers in the field. Ingrid was an associate professor at the Karolinska Institutet in Sweden. Sharone has been the director of service and deputy chief psychologist for Israels north region.
The two met at ISPA a number of years ago and have since both been really involved in consultation research and practice. We begin by hearing a little about their journeys to becoming psychologists.
Hi, welcome to this episode of conversations about consultation.
In this episode we speak with Professor Bill Erchul from North Carolina state university.
Bill has had a 36 year career as a trainer of school psychologists in the states and has a strong research record in consultation including co-editing a volume with Susan Sheridan in relation to research in school consultation.
He has had a significant dedication to both science and practice within school psychology in the states and more widely.
It was a pleasure to speak with Bill and we hope you enjoy listening to this episode.
References mentioned:
- Caplan, G., Caplan, R. B., & Erchul, W. P. (1994). Caplanian mental health consultation: Historical background and current status. Consulting Psychology Journal: Practice and Research, 46(4), 2.
- Erchul, W. P., Raven, B. H., & Ray, A. G. (2001). School psychologists' perceptions of social power bases in teacher consultation. Journal of Educational and Psychological Consultation, 12(1), 1-23.
- Wilson, K. E., Erchul, W. P., & Raven, B. H. (2008). The likelihood of use of social power strategies by school psychologists when consulting with teachers. J. Educational and Psychological Consultation, 18(2), 101-123.
- Erchul, W. P., & Martens, B. K. (2010). Model Description and Application. In School Consultation (pp. 105-125). Springer, New York, NY. Chicago
- Erchul, W. P. (1987). A relational communication analysis of control in school consultation. Professional School Psychology, 2, 113-124.
- Erchul, W. P., & Raven, B. H. (1997). Social power in school consultation: A contemporary view of French and Raven's bases of power model. Journal of School Psychology, 35, 137-171.
In this episode we speak with Helen Kerslake and Jane Roller from Westminster Kensington and Chelsea Educational psychology consultation service about their journey to becoming EPs and their experience of working in a service that places consultation at the centre of the work they do.
It was so interesting to speak with Helen and Jane about their services relationship with Patsy Wagner and her model of consultation. They both spoke about the service being known as ‘Gods little acre’ before becoming a tri-borough where all the schools in the area embraced consultation and it was embedded fully. Both Jane and Helen felt it was important to continue this at the service to form part of Patsy’s legacy at the service.
We found this conversation really inspiring and loved how Jane and Helen drew emphasis on the importance of our role in collaborating with consultees and being on a journey with them.
References/readings mentioned:
Bateson, G. (1970). Form, substance, and difference. Essential Readings in Biosemiotics, 423-440. https://faculty.washington.edu/jernel/521/Form.htm
Dowling, E. (2020). Taking the clinic to school: A consultative service for parents, children and teachers. In E. Dowling & E. Osborne (Eds.), The Family and the School: A Joint Systems Approach to Problems with Children (2nd Ed., pp. 59-68). Routledge. https://doi.org/10.4324/9780429481734
Kerslake, H., & Roller, J. (2000). The Development of 'Scripts' in the Practice of Consultation. Educational Psychology in Practice, 16(1), 25-30. https://doi.org/10.1080/026673600115247
Newton. (2020). Problems with IQ and Psychometric Assessment. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/problems-iq-psychometric-assessments-colin-newton
Blank’s Levels of Questioning - salda.org.au
Wagner, P. (2000). Consultation: Developing a comprehensive approach to service delivery. Educational Psychology in Practice, 16(1), 9-18. https://doi.org/10.1080/026673600115229
Wagner, P. (2008). Consultation as a framework for practice. In L. Woolfson & J. Boyle (Eds.), Frameworks for Practice in Educational Psychology: A Textbook for Trainees and Practitioners (1st Ed. pp , 139-162).
Watkins, C. & Wagner, P. (2000). Improving school behaviour. Sage. http://dx.doi.org/10.4135/9781446219096
In this introductory episode Emma speaks in conversation with myself and Emily about our routes onto the doctorate in educational psychology training programme, where our keen interest in consultation in EP practice started, our vision for this podcast and our thoughts on some of the current issues and debates in the field of consultation.
Resources/readings mentioned:
Kennedy, E. K. & Lee, V. (2021). A distinctive helping relationship. In C. Arnold, D. Bartle, X. Eloquin & M. Fox (Eds.), Learning from the unconscious: Psychoanalytic approaches in educational psychology (pp 122-139). Karnac. ISBN 978-1913494230
McIntosh, P. (1988). White Privilege and Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack. https://codeofgoodpractice.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Mcintosh-White-Privilege-Unpacking-the-Invisible-Knapsack.pdf