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On today's episode, we have a chat with Rachel Praus of Mandan, ND's Thomas And Moriarty's about the surprisingly old history of gelatin shots.

Cheers!

theombibulouspodcast

SPEAKERS

Connor Brekke, Rachel Praus

Connor Brekke 00:05

Hello everyone and welcome back to The Ombibulous, a show where we discuss a variety of topics about alcohol. From beer styles, the brewing process, distillation and spirits, and even liquor laws, there's a fascinating world to discover. On today's episode, we talk about the history of jello shots. Joining me today is Rachel Praus of Thomas and Moriarty's. I'm your host, Connor Brekke. Let's all raise a glass to, The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:39

All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. I am down here at Thomas and Moriarty's once again, and joining me today is Rachel Praus.

Rachel Praus 00:47

Hello.

Connor Brekke 00:48

Helcome to the show.

Rachel Praus 00:49

Thank you.

Connor Brekke 00:50

You can find her mixing up some drinks at Thomas and Moriarty's if you want to come in later and taste some of her stuff. But she's got some interesting facts about jello shots. Yes, the wiggly, jiggly stuff of college time jello shots. Believe it or not, there's quite a history to it. We're gonna run through it real quick for y'all.

Rachel Praus 01:10

Yeah, so um, I like it I think it's kind of funny and ironic because I personally am not a fan of jello. It's just not my thing. And I have honestly never had a jello shot, doesn't really pique my fancy. But the history is very interesting. So I thought it'd be fun to talk about.

Connor Brekke 01:32

And I myself, I think I had one... maybe? Doesn't really ring a bell. College was a while ago.

Rachel Praus 01:38

Right?

Connor Brekke 01:38

Yeah. So I mean, first of all, Jell-O is a brand name. It's like Kleenex, dumpster Port-O-Poty, it's basically just gelatin. And gelatin has been around for a long time. Let's put it that way. So jello shot is basically take gelatin and then put alcohol in it...

Connor Brekke 01:57

...and eat it and then you get tipsy and keep going and do whateverl else. So the brand name was coined in 1897... Le Roy, New York by Pearle Bixby Wait. So he basically just used a gelatin, sugar fruit flavored mix, which he patented, which was actually patented back in 1845. You know, again, prior to that it was just whatever gelatin mix you had.

Rachel Praus 01:57

Yep.

Rachel Praus 02:23

So one of the first like earliest documented recipes of a spirit being combined with gelatin appeared in Le Viandier de Taillevent, which is a French medieval cookbook. But it contained a recipe for aspic, which is basically a savory meat stock mix with gelatin, flavored with wine. And you can find some of those recipes and those weird 70s cookbooks as well... of just like a jelly with veggies and meats. It's quite.... yeah.

Connor Brekke 03:03

Kind of a shocker.... nowadays, I think...

Rachel Praus 03:06

Oh yeah.

Connor Brekke 03:06

... if you were to make something like that. And here's a ye old jello shot.

Rachel Praus 03:10

Right? But anyways, gelatin made an appearance in Jerry Thomas's book, How to Mix Drinks, published in 1862, featuring a recipe for punch jelly, which was a punch that wiggled with the addition of isinglass, which was a gelling agent derived from the air bladders of sturgeon, which is pretty interesting.

Connor Brekke 03:33

Yeah, for those who are familiar with gelatin, there's a lot of interesting ingredients to make some of the stuff.

Rachel Praus 03:39

Oh, yeah. And it also kind of popped up in the early 1900s. One of France's first international celebrity chefs Marie-Antoine Carême, sorry if I butchered that, created a pink champagne jelly flavored with orange flowers. And it also showed up in 1902, the San Francisco Chronicle claimed to be the first to have made Jello Shots having had a wine jelly made with lemon jello, orange slices and sherry. And they also emerged during and after prohibition. And this is something that's very... I find very interesting to me, that during Prohibition, people added gelatin to their alcohol and sort of like the loophole around the 18th Amendment, which prohibited the manufacture, sale, transportation, importation and exportation of liquors. So technically, they're like, "Well, if we throw some of this in here, technically, it's not considered a liquid." So...

Connor Brekke 04:42

It's an edible.

Rachel Praus 04:43

Yep. So...

Connor Brekke 04:43

Food.

Rachel Praus 04:44

Yeah. And some people actually use a type of seaweed that contains hydrocolloids once commonly used in making custards and puddings. So that was another thing people did to make their spirits nice and jiggly.

Connor Brekke 05:02

Seaweed jelly? I mean, I knew seaweed was like MSG, which I think everybody mostly likes as well. But...

Rachel Praus 05:09

Right?

Connor Brekke 05:10

I never thought of that honestly. I'm used to the animal parts being gelatin.

Rachel Praus 05:14

Right? Animal byproducts.

Connor Brekke 05:16

Right.? Try not to think about that when you're taking a jello shot. But... by the time you take a jello shot, I'm assuming you're pretty far down that rabbit.

Rachel Praus 05:25

Right? Yeah, at that point, it doesn't even matter. You're just doing it for the, for the fun. But after that, during the 1950s we see a heightened rise in the popularity of using jello in the kitchen. The manufacturers of jello stressed convenience and paired their products with others like canned fruit to boost the sales of both. It was a combination of new technology and intensive advertising that made these products so popular. So that's where we get those lovely jello cooking books from that time.

Connor Brekke 05:57

Everything was jello.

Rachel Praus 05:58

Jello, everything.

Connor Brekke 05:59

Jello cake, jello

Rachel Praus 05:59

Preservatives.

Connor Brekke 06:00

Just gello this, jello that I remember those... yeah.

Rachel Praus 06:05

Modern Jello Shots originated in the 50s when jello was the height of its popularity, and their creation is attributed to American satirist and musician Tom Lehrer, who claimed he invented as a way to circumvent the ban of alcohol on... at a Navy base, he was stationed at. He, he wasn't allowed to bring alcohol to a next Christmas party on the base. So he and a friend mixed orange jello with vodka and cup so they could sneak it into the party.

Connor Brekke 06:37

Clever.

Rachel Praus 06:37

Mmhmm. Changing tastes and economic trends resulted in a decline of jello shots during the 60s and 70s. But they had another cultural moment during the 80s when they began to show up at parties. It wasn't till well into the current cocktail renaissance of the present century that the jello shot really blossomed. But you really see their rise in popularity in the 90s, early 2000s. And we can think the 80s for that.

Connor Brekke 07:07

Mmmm, the 80s...good year.

Rachel Praus 07:09

Lovely decade.

Connor Brekke 07:10

Yeah, people got pretty creative during prohibition. I mean... people get their alcohol in one way or another.

Rachel Praus 07:16

Right?

Connor Brekke 07:16

Turning it into food is kind of a brilliant way really.

Rachel Praus 07:20

Yeah. And it's like a time in history that people can kind of just laugh at because the country was like, "Hey, we have a drinking problem. Let's just make it illegal." And people, obviously weren't going to have that. And that's where we get a lot of like independant brewers, you know, bootleggers, moonshiners, stuff like that. And some of those traditions are carried on to this day.

Connor Brekke 07:45

And we still have remnants of laws, too, that just haven't gone away either.

Rachel Praus 07:50

Right. Yeah, exactly. But it's definitely like a good example, like, you know, drink responsibly, of course. But the party era of the 90s is kind of why like, where the jello shot's bad rep kind of came about. Because like, you know, you hear jello shots and you think like, the first thing you think of is like a frat college party or something like that, you know? Like all all sorts of craziness.

Connor Brekke 08:18

From my experience of the sad looking jello in a tiny little paper Dixie Cup, which I'm pretty sure was, I don't know, hardly a jello shot. Just sad example of a jello shot.

Rachel Praus 08:29

Right?

Connor Brekke 08:29

But it's what I remember.

Rachel Praus 08:30

Yeah. And like they became so popular because they're so like, easy and cheap to make. And the sugar in the jello... like, because vodka is one of the most popular spirits to use in jello shots. But it basically like masks the alcohol flavors. So it's kind of one of those things that's popular with some people that are more like lightweighted with when they're drinking and then such, so... And it's like a good creative thing. Like way too I guess....

Connor Brekke 09:03

Liven up the party.

Rachel Praus 09:03

brain fart. Yeah. Yeah. I've actually... like doing research and stuff came across some very creative jello shots. There's like, you can make a jello shot for basically like any sort of cocktail. I saw like some Moscow Mule ones, some champagne...

Connor Brekke 09:21

Ooo, champagne.

Rachel Praus 09:22

...jello shots. Yeah, it was like champagne and blueberries. It looked really good actually. Like rum and coke flavor, Tequila Sunrises, and people get really creative and will do different layers and colors and little garnishes. Yeah. So they're also very unique, kind of like little mini compressed cocktails, basically.

Connor Brekke 09:44

Because I mean, yeah, we all have the college jello shot... idea. but I mean, you can do a lot with jello. I mean, you remember those... you know, just talking about those cookbooks.

Rachel Praus 09:52

Mm hmm.

Connor Brekke 09:53

You could make like a... an alcoholic cake with different layers, different colors. I mean, you can shove fruit in there. There's a lot of different things you could potentially do with Jello. It's just... I think when you're a broke college student, you don't really care.

Rachel Praus 10:05

Right? Yeah, just like buy the cheap bottle on the bottom shelf, like throw some packets in.

Connor Brekke 10:11

Yep.

Rachel Praus 10:12

And some people have actually done experiments to see how much alcohol they can put in a jello shot with it still being able to form. Because, like some people will, as they leave it in the fridge for the jello to form, sometimes if there's too much alcohol, they won't set and they'll just be all runny and such. So the strongest possible that you can make that it will still set as a three to one ratio of 80 proof alcohol to water, and it takes an entire day for it to completely set and become a solid.

Connor Brekke 10:47

80 proof!?

Rachel Praus 10:48

Yep.

Connor Brekke 10:48

Hmm, wow.

Rachel Praus 10:48

Yeah, because typically, average jello shot usually doesn't have a very high alcohol content. It's typically like... has a 10% ABV since you're mixing it with the water and...

Connor Brekke 11:02

Right

Rachel Praus 11:02

...gelatin so it is getting watered down. So some people you know will try to like get drunk off of them, but it's still not that much so it's going to take quite a few jello shots to be in a different place you know?

Connor Brekke 11:18

And then you've just consumed how much jello too? So that's going to add a whole nother...

Rachel Praus 11:21

Oh yeah.

Connor Brekke 11:22

...issue to you later on.

Rachel Praus 11:23

All the jello and the sugar... just sounds like a really bad headache and stomach ache.

Connor Brekke 11:29

It's like Wednesday night Tea Night Long Island Teas, just sugar, sugar sugar.

Rachel Praus 11:34

Oh, that makes me think of the thing that's like the $1 Long Islands at Applebee's or something?

Connor Brekke 11:41

Ick.

Rachel Praus 11:43

And they're just... they have like different flavors to like syrup. So it's just ooh, that's so much.

Connor Brekke 11:49

For anybody local to the Bismarck/Mandan area, there was a place still is they're called the Ground Round and they always do Wednesday night teen night.

Rachel Praus 11:52

Yep.

Rachel Praus 11:58

Oh, boy. I remember those. Anyways, yeah, jello shots. The're... they exist, and you can get a lot more creative with them. They're kind of a fun thing. I just... it's sad that a Dixie cup concoction anymore.

Rachel Praus 12:16

Right? Yeah, some of the ones I saw online are so fancy and tasty looking like I actually would have tried them. But definitely not something I'm gonna go out of my way to make, but it would be fun to experiment with that. Get some plant based gelatin or something. Make some experiment with like a champagne.

Connor Brekke 12:37

Champagne one would be really good. I could...

Rachel Praus 12:40

Or like a...

Connor Brekke 12:40

...if you can, like carbonation bubbles...

Rachel Praus 12:43

Mm hmm.

Connor Brekke 12:43

...get trapped in there somehow? Or you bite into it and it's like Pop Rocks I would imagine... kinda I don't know?

Rachel Praus 12:49

Or was like a sparkling rosé...

Rachel Praus 12:52

Ooo.

Rachel Praus 12:52

...that would be really good... with trawberries.

Connor Brekke 12:55

Yep, you could take fruit and dunk them in alcohol. Let them soak...

Rachel Praus 12:59

Yep.

Connor Brekke 13:00

...and then throw them in gelatin.

Rachel Praus 13:01

Candy. I saw some... there's like a pink Starburst one that I saw.

Connor Brekke 13:05

Starburst... pink was my favorite.

Rachel Praus 13:08

They are the best.

Rachel Praus 13:10

Jello.... not a fan. Sorry jello, but I did like Jello pudding growing up... that was, that was pretty good.

Connor Brekke 13:17

Well, I guess for any college students out there listening to this show... I mean, there's nothing wrong with the Dixie cup jello shot, but if you can afford it, maybe go a little farther and buy some strawberries and soak that strawberry and... like I don't know, vodka or something and then encase it with a jello shot.

Rachel Praus 13:34

Yeah that would be pretty cool.

Connor Brekke 13:34

Just get a little more fancy get some different colors. I mean, I mean, jello is a weird thing. You can make a kind of pretty and you could like liven up the party a bit with like this jello cake or something?

Rachel Praus 13:45

Mmm hmmm.

Connor Brekke 13:45

I feel like there's quite a few possibilities you could potentially do with jello.

Rachel Praus 13:49

Yeah, there's literally so much like we said, you can totally get creative with it too. And even make little tiny versions of your favorite cocktails.

Connor Brekke 13:59

And then for the historian out there, I would uh... be curious to see if you could go back and make like a historic jello shot too. Like, find the ingredients that they would have used in the 1700s and make Jell-O that way and then add some wine or something to it. That'd be... I'd try that in a heartbeat just because I'm a sucker for historic stuff like that.

Rachel Praus 14:19

Or even just doing the Jerry Thomas punch, the punch jelly.

Connor Brekke 14:24

Yep, that too.

Connor Brekke 14:25

Because you can't go wrong with that, of course. The aspic though, I'm not so sure like a meat stock with red wine.... I guess. It'd be like a nice savory thing, but I don't eat meat... so....

Connor Brekke 14:40

I would try it once? Probably? Just out of sheer curiosity.

Rachel Praus 14:44

Yeah, like I can imagine how it would taste. So it's gonna have like a good umami, as they say, with the red wine.

Connor Brekke 14:52

Definitely something to think about.

Connor Brekke 14:54

Alright, well, we learned a bit about jello shots and history, how to make them and how to prepare them and how to get more creative with them. So, Rachel, thank you for coming on the show and enlightening us with your knowledge of jello shots.

Rachel Praus 15:06

Thanks for having me. It was really fun.

Connor Brekke 15:10

And we'll see you guys on the next one, cheers.

Connor Brekke 15:15

The Ombibulous is made possible with Castos, giving creators the tools to connect with their audience and community. The music is courteous of Pond5. With over 25 million royalty free stock videos, music, photos, and sound effects, there's something every creative. Today's episode was recorded at Thomas and Moriarty's in downtown Mandan, North Dakota. I'd like to thank the Thomas and Moriarty's crew for loaning me their facility and the time to make this episode possible. For the latest updates, videos, photos and web links to our guests, please consider checking out our facebook page The Ombibulous podcast. And of course a big thank you to all our listeners, thank you for all of your support. Until next time, cheers!

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On today's episode, we meet with Tyler Mangin and hear the tale of how Icewind Brewing came to be in Mapleton, North Dakota. Cheers!

https://www.facebook.com/theombibulouspodcast

SPEAKERS

Tyler Mangin, Connor Brekke

Connor Brekke 00:04

Hello everyone and welcome back to The Ombibulous, a show where we discuss a variety of topics about alcohol. From beer styles, the brewing process, distillation and spirits and even liquor laws, there's a fascinating world to discover. On today's episode, we stopped by Icewind Brewing of Mapleton, North Dakota. Joining me today is Icewind's, Tyler Mangin. I'm your host, Connor Brekke. Let's all raise a glass to, The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:37

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. I'm currently here at Icewind Brewing in Mapleton, North Dakota... and joining me today is Mr. Tyler Mangin. Welcome to the show Tyler.

Tyler Mangin 00:48

Hi, Connor. Thanks for having me.

Connor Brekke 00:49

Yeah, thanks for inviting me out here. So you are one of the owners and brewers of Icewind Brewing here in Mapleton, North Dakota, you guys have a lot of really cool stuff. I've made it out here once prior, and most of the stuff I've had is in cans over at DePorres House in Dickinson. So minor shout out to them. But yeah, let's talk Icewind Brewing and a little bit about this place and a little bit about yourself. So how did you get into the world of craft beer?

Tyler Mangin 01:15

So this goes, you know, I would say for me, it kind of started when we used to go... my family used to go skiing out in Montana. And uh, like Red Lodge in Bozeman. They'd always have little breweries that you could stop at. Like Red Red Lodge Brewing. So that's kind of how I got into it. The tap room atmosphere out there was just so much fun. People were... you know, in the town that was kind of like, what are we talking maybe early 2000s? So tap rooms were still pretty rough tt that point, a lot of them, you know?They had that field like you were out in someone's garage or shed and I just enjoyed that atmosphere.

Connor Brekke 01:49

The early 2000s. Yeah, that was... kind of not quite the I call it the beer boom of like, the 2010s and onwards. But I imagine there's still a lot of cool stuff to explore out that way, too?

Tyler Mangin 02:00

Yeah, there wasn't as many breweries. And the beer that kind of got me into craft more than anything else was Deschutes Mirror Pond.

Connor Brekke 02:10

Ah, Deschutes. Yep. Deschutes is good. I hear that a lot from people who get into craft beers. Deschutes is like the one that kind of opened up the spectrum for them a bit.

Tyler Mangin 02:20

Yeah, they're so easy to find. And a lot of the things they have are very approachable and solid beers.

Connor Brekke 02:26

So are you a, North Dakota native then?

Tyler Mangin 02:29

I am, yep, I grew up in Lisbon, North Dakota.

Connor Brekke 02:32

Oh.

Connor Brekke 02:32

And I moved to Fargo, it's been over 20 years ago. So I've been in Fargo quite a while. So probably getting into brewing, like getting into craft beer was one thing. But getting into like home brewing was kind of a different thing. My friend and I were looking for an activity, to do when we weren't ice fishing, because you can only do that a few months out of the year. So we bought a homebrew kit, like an extract kit and did it on our stovetop that was probably... seven years ago now? So that's what got me started in actually home brewing. We did that for three, four or five years, got involved with the local homebrew club, the Prairie Home Brewing Companions. And that's really where I started to learn a lot more about beer and the different styles and the more about the details of brewing. So like I came up through home brewing, learned to brew that way. And we got pretty serious about three, four years in to our home brewing and we were trying to figure out ways to brew our beers at professional breweries, right? So a lot of times if you enter a competition, maybe one of the winners gets to scale up a batch of their beer at the brewery. So we were always hunting for those and trying to find ways to you know, get the experience of what's it like to brew in a professional setting. So we did that for a couple years and we were pretty successful. Did a lot of work as beer judges, which really helps your brewing to to be able to understand the defects and ways to correct issues with your beer and recipes. You know, as a home brewer, you're throwing all these recipes out constantly.

Connor Brekke 04:04

All the chemistry that's involved in everything that people... probably don't think about. Did you start... did you work anywhere like Junkyard or Fargo Brewing or...?

Tyler Mangin 04:14

I didn't work at Junkyard or Fargo Brewing. I was actually at one of the smaller breweries in town called Flatland Brewing.

Connor Brekke 04:20

Oh, okay.

Tyler Mangin 04:21

Or Flatland Brewery, I guess is what their actual name was. So myself and Rick Brandvold... the other one of the other owners. There's three of us, Rick Brandvold and Scott Diamond. Rick was also pretty involved in the Homebrew club. And we both worked at Flatland. That's actually how I got to know Rick. He was... he was assistant brewing there and I was more working the front serving beer and things like that in the tap room... doing a little bit of brewing. So that was kind of my first real experience at a brewery.

Connor Brekke 04:52

Everybody's got to start somewhere. It's always an interesting stories when I hear people transition from the kitchen stove top to the bigger industrial. You get that more real feel, I think is what people try to convey like "this is actually happening, we're doing this" kind of excitement and rush. So yeah, I'm glad you guys got to do that. And well, I'm glad this place is open to so. And speaking of this place, how did this place come to be for you? Like your location, hunting process and the concept, even the name? How all that... how did that all come to be?

Tyler Mangin 05:27

Well, it's kind of a long winding story how we got started. I was originally looking to open up a brewery with my homebrewing partner at the time, John Lewis. We were looking for a location that wasn't necessarily in Fargo, maybe on one of the outer communities that's really growing? There's places like that around Fargo, Horace. Mapleton is like that. So small communities outside of Fargo that don't have a brewery but have like a good population and business going on. So that's what we were looking for. And we couldn't really find anything in Horace that fit what we wanted. And we had been to... so the building we're in right now, the building where Iceland brewing is now is the former location of Drumconrath Brewing, DCR brewing. So if you're familiar with DCR, in 2019, they moved downtown into Drekker's old location, that was after Drekker moved to Brewhalla.

Connor Brekke 06:16

Right. Yeah, okay. I remember when they did that.

Tyler Mangin 06:19

Which is amazing. If you haven't been to Brewhalla.

Connor Brekke 06:23

Yeah, it's beautiful building, I put it that way.

Tyler Mangin 06:26

It is amazing. But Samuel Corr, the owner of DCR, was looking to sell his... he was he was looking to sell his equipment, but he was looking to kind of sell it all as a package deal, which would have been easier for him. So we started talking to him about timing and how much it would cost, and we kind of started getting our money together. But my homebrewing partner had, he had to drop out for health reasons and family reasons. So it was just kind of me, I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna go forward with it, this will probably just be a part time thing. It'll be open a day or two a week, maybe?" And that's when I started talking to Rick again. Rick was also had a group of friends that was looking to open a brewery in Fargo. And they were looking to do like a small one, two, three barrel brewery that was all distribution, no tap room. So I started talking to them and said, "Hey, what do you guys think about the location in Mapleton, where DCR used to be?" We could still do distribution, but on a small scale also have a taproom, which is... I think that's like probably the more fun aspect of a brewery that is the, the taproom experience.

Tyler Mangin 07:32

So anyway, we kind of joined up as a group and he had a couple guys with him. And at the end of it all, it was Rick and Scott Diamond, who's one of Rick's friends, and myself and we went ahead and took out a loan and purchased the equipment from Sam here. Which is already installed. And we took over the lease for the next couple years. So that was kind of we kind of locked into, I guess a turnkey operation. We didn't build it from the ground up, we had what was here, we kind of remodeled the taproom to make it fit our personality a little bit more. But otherwise, it's very similar to how it was when Sam was here.

Connor Brekke 08:08

Personally, I really liked the aesthetic here. And especially now at the time of this recording it's Halloween. So all the Halloween decor, favorite holiday me personally, but um, yeah, that's pretty cool. Now this place is relatively new, you guys opened up in the unfortunate time of like, the middle of the pandemic, basically the the very near the very start of it, I should say, how was your guys's opening process? How did you get from getting this place to getting off the ground?

Tyler Mangin 08:36

Yeah, we I think we got the building in January of 2020. So that's when we started working on the remodel, we put in a new bar and added well, okay, so kind of back up a step... Sam had a seven barrel system in place already. And we wanted the ability to do smaller batches. So we found a pretty inexpensive two barrel system and installed that. So we could do smaller batches of more experimental things, or pilot, pilot runs, instead of jumping right into a seven barrel. We didn't know how much beer we were going to sell. So we we worked on the remodel for several months, applied for our permits. And that all went pretty quickly. I think we got our brewers notice from the TTB in just a month or or even less, it was very quick at that point, which was, I suppose March, April of 2020. So like, you know, COVID is kind of becoming a thing that we're all aware of at that point. We went ahead and... can... I mean, it was it was odd because like we didn't know what was gonna happen as far as like businesses getting shut down at that point. Things weren't real intense, I guess. But we ended up opening right away in June of 2020. Think we had just a few... four six beers on tap. We had to have the previous owner Samuel Corr came in he brewed a batch of beer with. The first batch we did on the large system he was here to kind of help us walk us through. So a lot a lot of things at that point in time, or us just figuring it out on our own or calling people for help.

Tyler Mangin 10:11

Yeah, we we opened up in June, and things were fairly busy right away. You know, Mapleton had a brewery out here. So there was already some craft beer fans and people who had missed having that. So, so we had a lot of support from the community right away. And I guess that's kind of that's kind of the run up to our opening. And it all happened really quick. I suppose everyone says that? We didn't, we didn't have to install the equipment and stuff. So I think we had it a little easier that way. But...

Connor Brekke 10:38

But you guys made it. And here you are.

Tyler Mangin 10:40

Yeah, so far.

Connor Brekke 10:41

Let's talk about the name real quick, Icewind. There's a bit of a... from my understanding kind of a story behind that, too?

Tyler Mangin 10:51

Yeah, there's so this goes back to when Rick and I were, I suppose this would have been like the the late fall of winter of 2019. We're trying to figure out names for the brewery and just kind of like what we were going to try to do with it? What was going to be our focus? And we're kicking around a few things. There there was there was like, Guillotine I know was one of them that was kind of close or something with like Black Raven, we were were... anyway, we were just kind of sitting at a bar having some drinks talking about this. And you know, Rick and I are both about the same age. We're in our... he's late 30s I'm early 40s. And we have some shared experience. We're both kind of nerds at heart, Dungeons and Dragons and those kinds of things.

Connor Brekke 11:36

Me too.

Tyler Mangin 11:38

So he, we were talking about this series when we were younger, it was called The Icewind Dale Trilogy by RA Salvatore and like, it's a Dungeons and Dragons book basically. And and we were both really into it and he threw that out there. You know, what about Icewind? And like it kind of fits. If you've ever been out here in the winter? We're... we're right off the interstate and there's no trees or shelter really like the wind whips through here.

Connor Brekke 12:05

See, it's funny because I am familiar with that series, the Icewind Dale, it's, it's acclaimed. It's it's a really good... check it out. And I never made that connection. I'm like, "Oh, Icewind. Yeah, it's Fargo. It's windy and cold." And like, "that's pretty awesome." And then "no, it's actually after D&D." And it's like all that makes it even better for me. So yeah, and I like your guys's logo, too. I like everything about it. And so pretty cool.

Connor Brekke 12:29

Alright, so you guys are a brewery. Let's talk a bit about beer. You guys have 10 beers on tap, I've had probably close to 20 different versions. Usually it's in can form or when you guys did the tap takeover a few months ago. And then I stopped in here. They've all been really good. Are there any highlights? Or maybe perhaps seasonal versions or popular ones that you'd like to talk about briefly?

Tyler Mangin 12:53

Yeah, I think that I can kind of sum up what we do, maybe? And thank you, by the way.

Connor Brekke 12:59

No problem.

Tyler Mangin 13:00

So we've got a few that we always try to keep on tap and have available in cans for distribution. One of those is Sundog. And that's our, our golden lager we call it.

Tyler Mangin 13:10

Sundog is good.

Tyler Mangin 13:11

So that kind of that was one of the original, you know, when we started out were like, what do we want our taps to look like? And that was one where we thought we're kind of... we're in this smaller town. There's really only one other bar here. So we felt like we're probably going to get some traffic of people who maybe are looking for something that they're familiar with, right? So we thought well, we should probably have some type of lighter lager on. The other one that is pretty much always on is Raspberried. And I guess we don't have that on tap right now. But that one kind of comes and goes. Or it's, it's usually there though. That's our raspberry, our raspberry kettle sour. Other than that, you know, we do we like to brew seasonally. We... for me when someone asked me what my favorite beer is, I'll it'll probably depend what time of year it is, you know, and just kind of how you feel?

Connor Brekke 13:57

Right, yeah. Bring out the richer, heavier stuff kind of in the winter and then like this lighter, shandy-ish type things in the summer, because we just finished Oktoberfest too. So you guys had one of those on.

Tyler Mangin 14:10

Yeah, the... it's something that's it's done pretty well for us, right? Like in the summer we do have a shandy on and we did the Oktoberfest in the fest beer. So now we're kind of coming into like stouts and bigger like winter warmers and those kinds of things. We've got a lot of amber and brown beers coming up. So like generally we kind of have this hefeweisen and the saison will come in the spring in summer, and you know, more sour beers generally. We've we found that our customers appreciate the variety. Something else we tried to do is try to keep a very balanced tap list. So like with it, no matter when you come in and look at our tap list, we want to try to have a couple of very light offerings. A couple fruited sour beers, a couple IPAs, a couple darker brown and stout beers. Kind of here's the thing like this is something we've learned being out in this location.... we're not in Fargo, right? We're kind of, you know, we're 10 miles out, we're off the interstate. So if people come out, we have to, like consider a couple things. If they're going to drink a few beers, we can't be giving them like 7, 8, 9 percent beers. Like, people aren't gonna want to drive, they're not want to come out here if that's all they can find. So a lot of our beers are pretty sessionable. 5 to 6% is pretty common here.

Connor Brekke 15:22

Cause' I'm looking at your menu right now... and it is very balanced. There's, you've got a seltzer, a golden lager, you've got a sour, you've got an Imperial, you've got IPA. And it's, you know, everything's really sessionable. I mean, the Coffee Drago is an Imperial... so that one's gonna be the heavy hitter. But everything else just looks really well balanced. And you know, not no, not down talking any other place that's really heavy on like, some places, or we'll have like 10 IPAs and like two something else. That's fine. There's specialty breweries out there. And I appreciate that. But I do like a well balanced menu too. Especially since, the listener,s know that I'm still discovering my... beer wings, I guess. So it's always fun to see a different place's brewing chops and how they can do it. There's actually one I really want to talk about it was the Swineapple Express?

Tyler Mangin 16:15

Yeah, yeah.

Connor Brekke 16:16

The most interesting thing that I think I've had in a long time, and I loved it. So the Swineapple Express. Could you tell us just a little bit about that one?

Tyler Mangin 16:27

Yeah. That was... that was one of.... that came from home brewing. So we used to do this beer called a Pivo Grodziskie, and it's like this 4% Polish smoked beer. It's 100% oak smoked wheat malt. So it's pretty light, smoky kind of the smoke comes off is like this hammy bacon. And we thought, you know, wouldn't it be interesting if we took that smoked malt with the ham bacon kind of flavor profile and combine that with pineapple to give the impression.... oh, my... to give the impression of like a Hawaiian pizza, I guess is really like what we leaned into with that one. Which seems like a real weird thing for a beer. And I feel like yeah, it probably is. But it's, it's one of those fun ones we like to do on our anniversary. And you know, it's not a beer people are gonna drink three pints of generally, but it is fun to try. And it kind of messes with your head a little bit.

Connor Brekke 17:24

It was... I loved it. And I realized, you know, talking to the bartender at the time, it's kind of a love hate relationship

Tyler Mangin 17:31

Right?

Connor Brekke 17:31

...with customers. But it was just so interesting how this smoke flavor imparted that, like... bacon-ey-ham, smokiness and then the pineapple. It just works so well. I mean, it'd be like a sour rauchbier. For anybody who's ever had a smoked beer you can get that kind of almost like umami meaty characteristics from some rauchbiers, but then add like a fruit to it. It's so cool. Yeah, that one I thought was really well done.

Tyler Mangin 17:57

Thank you. Yeah, it's a it's a we did that is okay.... Junkyard, every year, does this rare beer festival where they have breweries come in with their kind of specialty beers. And we were home brewers at that time. And that's what we brewed it for because our homebrew club got to have a booth there. So we're like, let's do something real weird that'll get people's attention. And I think we, I think we sampled out that whole keg that day. It was it was pretty wild that people were into it. But yeah, yeah, that one's fun. Like you said, love hate. Definitely love hate. And some people don't like smoke. So are you.. you mentioned rauchbiers? Do you like a smoke beer?

Connor Brekke 18:33

I do. There's, it's it is a hit and miss. Not everyone I've liked. I haven't had a whole lot of them. I know some of the breweries Dialectic, Buffalo Commons, Atypical out of Minot they do that, um, Crosstown Brewdown. And... I think it was last year about this time they each did a rauchbier? And I only managed to drink three of them, but they were very different in their styles. And then I've had some through that Tavour? I think it's Tavour ordering service where you get a crate of just all kinds of stuff from across the country. And there's been some there that I just didn't care for. I don't remember what they were but it... it's a tough one to nail down. And even if you do nail it down, you know, it's not for everybody. Obviously not everybody likes everything. So there's that to consider too.

Tyler Mangin 19:19

That's a good point. Smoke beer is tough in that regard where there's just some people like no matter how well done the beer is they're just not they're just not going to like it. You know, drinking smoke flavor is uh....

Connor Brekke 19:30

It's interesting. Its's very interesting.

Connor Brekke 19:33

Sometimes they're really not like I like it... I like if.... it's... if it's.... if it's restrained and not incredibly intense smoke sometimes that's that's pretty nice.

Connor Brekke 19:43

And then to go with your beer, you guys also do some food. You have the Great Northern Pizza. You got some pretzels, you got some bottled water and soda. So you guys have a little bit of food here to enjoy as well.

Tyler Mangin 19:57

Yeah, we don't have... we don't prep any food yet. But we can serve frozen pizzas and Great North who mentioned there. The're small pizza company out of Detroit Lakes that's been really nice to work with. But we hope to one day make our own pizzas. That's actually part of Rick's previous career. He was manager of the Papa Murphy's in Fargo. So he's got some experience with that kind of thing. And we'd like to get there one day, but we also have, we tried to have food trucks out on a regular basis, Fridays and Saturdays when we can.

Connor Brekke 20:28

I was just gonna mention that. You guys have one of my all time favorite things... food trucks.

Connor Brekke 20:33

That's what that's been one of the best... the best parts of, of having the brewery is the food trucks we get out. Man, some of them are so good.

Connor Brekke 20:42

I mean, some people say salt and pepper is the best combination or peanut butter and jelly... for me? It's a brewery and a food truck, and you just cannot beat it. Just something about it. I love so much. So a brewery needs staff to run um, do you guys have multiple owners and multiple bartenders and your distribution? I imagine there's all people involved in each of those categories.

Tyler Mangin 21:06

Yeah, so we do have there's three three owners me, Rick Brandvold, and Scott Diamond. And Scott... Scott, uh, takes care of a lot of the..... Scott... Scott's background is he's a, he's a criminal defense attorney and a judge. So he's familiar with the workings of the government. And he helps with a lot of the taxes and licensing and things like that. That's kind of his domain. We've each kind of broken the business out into a few areas that we, we kind of are each responsible for. Rick, who also brews does, manages the tap room and schedule, and he's also our self distributor. So he's going out to the local businesses and delivering cans and making sales and things like that. So Rick's always on the go, he's got a lot on his plate. And then most of my responsibility is the back of the house as far as like the brewing schedule, ingredients, logistics of receiving and things like that. And then I also book the food trucks and music.

Tyler Mangin 22:07

So we each wear a lot of hats in the business, but we've we've got our own areas, and it works pretty well. So besides the three of us, we also have generally eight to 10. Beer tenders on staff who are, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're serving beer in the tap room. We've got a few of them, some of them been with us since the beginning. We've been very lucky not to have major issues with staffing. We've been able to hire okay, and get some pretty good people. Usually they're all you know, people who want to work at a craft a craft beer tap room are usually into beer, and they they like talking to people so kind of attracts the right person naturally. And then we have one assistant brewer. I guess he's our assistant brewer and works in the taproom. He kind of does everything. He's really been great. John, John Caro is a member of the Homebrew club that we that we hired on. He had also worked at DCR doing their distribution. So he's been a good sounding board for how to handle some things, as far as like distributing in Minnesota and advice on where to go and who to talk to. So that's, that's, that's those are the people that make the business go. I'm sorry, I didn't mention all of our staff. We have a lot of servers, but usually they're working one or two nights a week. And they they all do a great job. We've been really lucky that way.

Connor Brekke 23:24

And it's good to hear that. So many places are going through closings because they can't physically serve people. Unfortunate, but I'm glad you guys are doing all right.

Tyler Mangin 23:34

Yeah, thank you. Yeah.

Connor Brekke 23:36

So do you have any future plans or expansions or upcoming things that excite you or that you feel people should know?

Tyler Mangin 23:43

Yeah, um, there's a, we've got a few things going on this winter, hopefully. So if you haven't been to our taproom, before, I can kind of kind of sum it up and explain, explain what's going on. We're in this big, white sheet metal building. It's like people, people rent these spaces out for garages or workshops a lot of times. So each units got an overhead door and a bathroom in it. And they're very bare bones. We've got three of those units, two of them, we use for tap room and one we use for our brew house. Hopefully in December, we'll be able to, we'll be able to get the fourth, there's a fourth unit right over there, pointing for Connor, just off to our left that we hope to get and expand into. We'd like to get a couple more fermenters so that we can so that we can do a little more beer distribution. Right now we're pretty much at capacity between our tap room and distribution. So in order to grow, we need to add a little bit more space for fermentation. And that'll let us hopefully move some of this storage out because as you can see, right on that wall, we've got our rack full of grain and kegs and all the things we need to make the brewery go. So getting that out of the tap room I think would be nice. A little more space for customers and that should allow us to have an event space. We're going to try to play around with some stand up comedy this next couple months and see how that works out. We've got music a couple times a month generally. So... that those are the things, the things we're working on. Like if you've been out here to see music, you know, it's pretty, it's it's a it's pretty bare bones setup at this point. But we'd like to improve that once we expand our tap room and make it a little bit nicer, more inviting space for musicians to play. They still like to come out, you know it... we have once in a while. And as you look around, you can see there's a lot of steel on the walls. So it gets a little loud and echoey when we've got music in here.

Connor Brekke 25:36

It's really nice that you have all this going on just outside of Fargo too.

Tyler Mangin 25:41

Yeah, we try to, we try to keep some events, we've got trivia on Wednesdays. We're looking to add more things like that during the week just to just have some things going on. Because, because like I said, we're out of Fargo. So kind of what we run into is if you want to come out to Icewind, you're kind of committing to being at Iceland, right? Like you're not downtown where there's a bunch of other places to jump around to. So we need to... we need to keep a couple things in mind... is like have, have events for people to make things entertaining. We've got board games and things like that, that people can play while they're out here. But that and having like, like I mentioned earlier, tap a variety of beer and options on tap, like seltzers. If people come in with a group of six and one person doesn't want to drink beer, that group leaves pretty quickly. So that's one thing we found is try to keep options open for everyone. And it doesn't always let us do exactly what we want to do like as far as what we love to drink for ourselves. But it really I think our customers appreciate us trying to give give everyone something that they like while they're here and make make everyone's experience you know, enjoyable. So yeah, that's kind of what we got coming up, hope to expand, increase our capacity, open up our tap room a little more for events. We're still so new, and we're still you know, figuring things out what works and what doesn't, but a lot of what a lot of it's trial and error still.

Connor Brekke 27:04

Sounds like a lot of it's worked out well so far for you, which is great.

Tyler Mangin 27:08

Thanks Connor.

Connor Brekke 27:09

So now we have to guide people to here. You've got your Facebook page, Icewind Brewing@Facebook. You've got your Untapped powered website, Icewind brewing.com. You are located here at 349 Knutson Street Unit B. It's one of those long industrial buildings. So if you've ever been to Buffalo Commons in Mandan or Gideons out of Bismarck's original location, it's kind of like that. Um, where else can people find you?

Tyler Mangin 27:38

Yeah, we're, I mean, I would say Facebook is our best point of contact. If you want to get in touch with us Facebook Messenger is a great way to do it. As Connor mentioned, our website is powered by untapped and that's kind of all it is, at this point. We really haven't... we really haven't put a lot of resources into a website. But we're easy to get in touch with you can find our number on Google. But really Facebook and Instagram is where we're posting our events. So if you want to check in and see what's going on, take a look at our Facebook page.

Connor Brekke 28:07

And then as far as distribution I know you guys... I can only speak for where I've been but Wiliquors in Bismarck has cans DePorres House of Barbering in Dickinson has cans. I imagine you have stuff throughout Fargo too?

Tyler Mangin 28:23

Yeah, we're mainly in... and to be honest with you mainly in Fargo/Grand Forks, and then a little bit west into Jamestown, Valley City. Just because our limited capacity we only...

Connor Brekke 28:33

...right

Tyler Mangin 28:33

...we just can't get out into western North Dakota very effectively yet. But like you said DePorres... Patrick really goes out of his way to bring in local beer. So he's he's always working with us to get kegs and cans out that way. It's kind of the exception really, you know in Dickinson. But that's that's because of the great job they do.

Connor Brekke 28:54

Yeah they really go out of their way to get just random things that you can't find.

Tyler Mangin 29:00

Yeah it's it's impressive, it's impressive if you if you get a chance to stop at DePorres I highly recommend it. But yeah, only in North Dakota right now we're not distributing to Minnesota yet we hope to early next year or summer when we're... when we've increased our our tank space a little bit. Mostly you're gonna find us pretty much everywhere in Fargo where craft beer is. Happy Harry's, Bottle Barns... those are the kind of places we're at around here. And some some kegs. But you know that's that's not really a big thing for us yet Brewbird, Brewbird and Blackbird Pizza, those kind of places were usually on tap there.

Connor Brekke 29:33

Well, I hope everybody learned a little bit about another local North Dakota brewery, Icewind. So I hope anybody listening to this podcast can get a chance to come out here and try it. It's a, it's a fun environment. I really enjoy it. I kind of wish I could get out this way a little bit more. But for me, I'll keep drinking the cans when I find them. But uh, Tyler, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was an absolute pleasure.

Tyler Mangin 29:56

Yeah, thank you, Connor. It's good to see you again.

Connor Brekke 29:58

Yes. Yeah, we met actually at a DePorres event a little while ago. It was a fun, fun little event. So hope you guys can make it out here soon. So until next time, cheers.

Tyler Mangin 30:09

Cheers.

Connor Brekke 30:12

The Ombibulous is made possible with Castos giving creators the tools to connect with their audience and community. The music is courteous of Pond 5. With over 25 million royalty free stock videos, music, photos and sound effects, there's something for every creator. Today's episode was recorded at Icewind Brewing here in Mapleton, North Dakota. I'd like to thank Tyler for his time and the use of his facility to make this episode possible. For the latest updates, videos, photos and web links to our guests, please consider checking out our Facebook page, The Obibulous podcast. And of course a big thank you to all our listeners. Thank you for all of your support. Until next time, cheers

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Today's episode brings you to Hidden Cave Cidery in Middleton, Wisconsin. We have a talk with Walker Fanning about his innovative ciders and how they came to be. Cheers!

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SPEAKERS

Walker Fanning, Connor Brekke

Connor Brekke 00:03

Hello everyone and welcome back to The Ombibulous, a show where we discuss a variety of topics about alcohol. From beer styles, the brewing process, distillation and spirits and even liquor laws, there's a fascinating world to discover. On today's episode, we pay a visit to hidden cave cidery of Middleton, Wisconsin. Joining me today is hidden cave cideries Walker Fanning. I'm your host, Connor Brekke. Let's all raise a glass to, The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:36

Hello, everybody and welcome back to another episode. I am in Middleton, Wisconsin, and I am at the Hidden Cave Cidery. Joining me today is Walker Fanning. The head of this amazing facility. Welcome to the show.

Connor Brekke 00:50

Thank you for inviting me out here. I heard about this place on an NPR show a little while ago and it was like, "oh, I need to get out here really, really soon." ...so...

Walker Fanning 00:50

Thank you.

Walker Fanning 01:00

Awesome.

Connor Brekke 01:01

cider and fall go really well togetherI think. So hidden cave cidery you are located in Middleton, Wisconsin. Let... tell us a little bit about yourself. You're... you make cider here. You make a lot of herbal based ciders. How did you get into the cider industry?

Walker Fanning 01:18

Yes. So I'm a local Wisconsinite, grew up here, went to school here, and got a degree in agronomy from the UW Madison. And agronomy, for people who don't know, is agriculture for fuel, fiber and feed. But I was always interested in agriculture, more of like specialty crops like fruit crops. And so when I graduated college, I was looking to use my degree and I wanted to do something in fruit crops. And I was looking for a job all summer long, I was having a really hard time because I also wanted something where I could still live in downtown Madison with my friends. And I ended up finding a small apple orchard that had a cidery in the South Madison area, about 30 minutes from where I was hoping to live downtown.

Walker Fanning 02:17

So they didn't have a job posting up or anything like that. But I decided I would just reach out and ask them if I could volunteer on their farm to learn about the ins and outs of being an orchard assist. And I sent them the email, they invited me out to take a tour of the farm. There were 200 Different apple trees, every single apple tree was a different variety than the last. And they showed me the cidery, I tried dry cider for the first time in my life. I actually turned it away the first time I was offered. He said "do you want to try some cider?" And I said "I don't like sweet stuff." And he said, "No, this is real cider." And that's when I had my first sip of real cider, which was tart and dry and very apple forward. And we got to the end of the tour. And I said, "so can I volunteer my time here?" And he said, "I'll do you one better, you could be my orchard manager." So I was able to continue living downtown with my friends in Madison. And so I was really excited about that. And I was starting to learn about the hard cider industry. And I didn't know it at the time, because I was only interested in growing the apples. Well, I get there on the first day. And really it was August. So most of the orchard management had already been done. It was really now we were looking at, okay, mowing the lawn, but mostly picking apples. Well picking apples, it would only take me half a day to get all the ones that were ripe off the trees. It was a really small orchard.

Walker Fanning 03:55

And I noticed that they were taking their hard cider that they were producing and just putting it in their basement. And so I asked "Do you want to sell this hard cider?" And they said, "Of course we want to sell this hard cider. We just don't know who would want to buy it." And I was thinking to myself like... these guys have something that no one has ever tried. Like the concept of hard cider to me at the time was sweet, syrupy, fruity. Something that most people if just it wasn't a an attractive drink to most people, whereas this place was producing things. It was on the drier side. It was nice and tart. It was made from local apples and I thought to myself that a lot of people, especially in the foodie culture and these farm to table restaurants, all would be interested in hard cider from this place. So I set up a plan basically to sell to every single farm to table place between their orchard and my apartment in downtown Madison and helped them grow their business from two liquor stores, to over 30 different bars and restaurants in the downtown Madison area in eight months. And so I was helping them with the farming side, I was helping with the sales side. And then I noticed that they're having some production issues.

Walker Fanning 05:22

They would get one blend of apples and it would come out a certain way, they'd get a different blend of apples, and it would come out completely different. And so all of a sudden, when you're, when you're selling a product, like a cherry cider, all of a sudden, have you come to that same account that they had it in a supposed to taste like this, and you bring them something else. I knew that people were going to get upset, and I was a salesperson, and I did not want to be the person that was getting in trouble for handing them something different than what we were promising them. So I said, "Can I help you guys, like fix these production issues so that we have a standardized product every single time, no matter what time of the year it is, no matter what kind of apples that we're getting?" And they said, "Sure." So I sat down pen to paper on a Monday night, I had orders going out that Friday. So I wrote down everything that I could about making hard cider. And by Tuesday morning, I had a plan, we implemented it on five gallons, all the sudden the cider tastes like it was supposed to. We scaled it up to 50 gallons. All of a sudden, that cider tastes like it was supposed to. Then we scaled up to 200 gallons, and then all of a sudden, now no matter what time of the year, it was, no matter what kind of apples that we were getting, we were still able to make that standardized product that these bars were expecting from us.

Walker Fanning 06:39

So after I'd worked there for eight months, I felt like it was time to move on. So I started working for a different business in downtown Madison called the Old Sugar Distillery, owner Nathan Greenawalt. And I noticed he had made cider. And he said, "you know, we have a bunch of cider. It's kind of like a side product for us because we're a cocktail bar, would you be interested in flavoring some of that for us?" And I said, "Yeah, I actually want to start my own hard cider company. So let me flavor this for you," though, like, kind of what I was picturing my flagship flavor would be rose hip, rosemary. So, I flavor five gallons of his cider that way, and we sell the five gallons in a day. And so then we flavored the rest of the cider that he had, another 200 gallons, and we call the distributor, and they signed us before we even had a name for the company to get distribution in Madison and Milwaukee and La Crosse.

Walker Fanning 07:40

And so we were really excited. And then from that point on, I was kinda like, "Okay, I went to school for agronomy here in Wisconsin, I want to support Wisconsin farmers. This is my platform to do so." So all of the apples that we use in our hard cider blend are from Wisconsin. And when we use honey, in our cider, like the lemongrass lavender is a drier cider with a little bit of honey. Rose hip Rosemary has some honey to it. Hibiscus juniper has honey to it. It's all a Gentle Breeze Honey from Mount Horeb, Wisconsin. So trying to keep it as local as possible and trying to put money back into the pockets of the farmers here who have decided that this is what they want to provide Wisconsin. And we want to say, yes, we want you to keep providing that. And so we want to support you.

Walker Fanning 08:36

And another thing that I noticed when I was going around as a salesman for the first company was that a lot of places had a semi sweet cider. And when I talked to the bar managers, who were the ones that were buying the kegs, they're just like, "oh, you know, we kind of rotate through everybody's, semi sweet." So I was thinking, "okay, there's nothing really here that is making a distinction for these bar managers other than they all wanted local." But all the local people really had a lot of semi sweets, they would just kind of rotate through Well, the company that I was working for, had a lemon, ginger cider. And I remember I emailed one of the top, highest rated restaurants in the downtown Madison area. And I sent them a list of all the ciders that we had, and I got an email back that said, "Okay, we have a cider, but we don't have a lemon ginger cider. And so I want to meet with you." And I thought to myself, "Okay, interesting. It's these flavors that are super unique," that all of a sudden people are interested in because they're nobody's producing it. And it's not accessible in this area, even if somebody is already producing it. So when I started my own company, I thought, "okay, what can I do that's super unique.? How about making flavors of cider that are all things that nobody else is producing? And things that aren't available in the area around around us?

Walker Fanning 09:58

So I mentioned lemongrass lavender, rose hip Rosemary, hibiscus juniper, we have the only chocolate hazelnut hard cider in the world. We make it with WM chocolate that's single origin from Ghana. And the chocolate maker is also local person. And we have a honey suckle french toast hard cider which uses honey suckle, Wisconsin maple syrup, cinnamon, nutmeg, salt, vanilla... and an ingredient that's really unique to the cider industry, at least for now, is lactose, milk sugar. But I figure we're in the dairy state, so if there's anywhere to put out a cider with lactose in it, that's probably Wisconsin.

Connor Brekke 10:41

Now, it's interesting that a lot of your ciders don't really have fruit in them, other fruit. And then there's a reason why it has to do with laws and taxations.

Walker Fanning 10:53

Yeah, so when I was looking through all the different rules and regulations of the different regulating bodies of alcohol in the United States, I came upon some rules that if you are making a hard cider, just with apples, just fermented apples, that gets taxed at a certain rate per gallon. And when you added fruit, all of a sudden, you jumped up from about nine cents per gallon to about like $1.30. And there was a little loophole in there that said, if you were using herbs, then you wouldn't have to jump up to the next tax bracket. It would still be considered hard cider and not fruited cider, which falls in the category of special natural wine. And so those are things like hops, those are things like if you were to use pumpkin spice, because there's no actual pumpkin in there, it's a blend of different spices. And then for me, when I thought about it, I said, "Okay, well, I can make cider that is fruit forward without using fruit using herbs." But I'm not trying to impart the fruit flavor, I'm trying to impart the herbal flavor.

Walker Fanning 12:14

So for instance, our lemongrass lavender, hard cider, it has real lemongrass, real lavender, and we just steep it like tea. And although it does have a lot of lemon flavor to it, I'm not trying to say that I'm making a lemon lavender cider. I'm making a lemongrass, lavender cider. So I'm... I'm putting in the flavor of lemongrass when I steep the lemongrass in there. I'm not actually trying to make it taste like a lemon. I'm trying to make it taste like lemongrass. And then all sudden, you stay in that hard cider category. It's the same for let's say, hibiscus juniper. Hibiscus flower actually imparts the flavor of cranberry without the bitterness and the Juniper, even though it's technically called the juniper berry, the berry is not a barrier at all, it's actually a pine cone with all of the cone parts kind of pushed together to look like a little ball. And so that's not a fruit either. And so working within those rules, has helped kind of shape our company to offer these things that are really unique. And that's what I was hoping for from the beginning. And so it's just kind of playing within the rules has been a fun thing to do, just to kind of innovate without breaking any rules.

Connor Brekke 13:36

I was just gonna say the kind of... forced restrictions you had, made you come up with these amazingly creative ciders.

Walker Fanning 13:44

Yes, it's a... it's been a it's been a lot of fun. And I think it's, it's always funny when someone says to me, like, "oh, you need a blueberry cider," or "you need pomegranate cider." And again, I think those can be really good. And those are things like a blueberry ginger cider, for instance, is something that isn't available here. But all the sudden when you kind of move outside of those rules, you kind of start getting into okay, now, it's not quite as innovative as it was before. Like I had never even had a hibiscus drink before I started making it into a cider and I think like one of our most unique herbal ciders is the elderflower holy basil. It's a vegan cider and the all the other ones are only not vegan because they have honey in them. I'm not putting any meat products in the cider, but the honey technically if you're vegan, I think a lot of people choose where they can draw that line. And I think for a lot of people that do choose to be vegan that honey can be over that line, and so they wouldn't have it.

Walker Fanning 14:54

So what we did was we created our elderflower holy basil hard cider, which we take elderflower, and we steep it in, like tea, for 30 minutes. And during that time, you really get all these great flavors from it with the point being that we are kind of trying to make it like an elderberry without using the elderberry. So we take the flour, we steep it for a really long time. And then we add cane sugar and simmer it down into like a simple syrup. And then we add that to our dry hard cider. And then steep in holy basil, which is also called Tulsi, which adds this like lemon, slash mint, slash clove flavor all in one herb, into the cider. And it just creates this thing like... you know, you look at a menu board and you see something that says elderflower holy basil, and you go like "I have no idea what that would even taste like." And that's that's the kind of product that you at least ask the bartender for a taster. If they have it on draft, like I at least want to see what that tastes like. Because like those ingredients... me specifically, I would have no idea until I use them and put them into a beverage. I can only imagine what somebody else sees that up there, they might not even know that holy basil is an herb out there.

Connor Brekke 15:11

Right... I ... that's first time I've ever heard of it, to be honest with you.

Connor Brekke 16:25

So how did you come to this location? Did you have other locations for your business? Or did this place just kind of pop up and...? How was the location hunting process like for you?

Walker Fanning 16:37

Yeah. So originally, when we launched the business, I was working downtown with Old Sugar Distillery, and Nathan Greenawalt. And they were really cool to me. And we basically launched it as a profit split, where I would produce all the cider and the owner of the distillery was funding the project. And then we would split the profit at the end. And we had done that for three years and Hidden Cave and Old Sugar both grew. And then all of a sudden, it was like, we couldn't just make the cider in the corner of the distillery anymore. We needed more space. We were bottling, we were making new flavors, we were increasing our distribution into new territories. And all that stuff just meant that we were growing and we needed to expand. So I found this lease in January, or well start in January, I had been looking for a place for probably a year and a half, two years. I'd say one year super seriously. And one year just kind of looking at my options.

Connor Brekke 17:50

So you guys offer meat and cheese trays. And then do you guys have other kinds of events like maybe a food truck or something?

Walker Fanning 17:59

Yeah, so for us our capacity is really small right now. So like for a food truck, it just wouldn't work out for us currently, We don't have like the sort of traffic that a food truck would like. And we're in an industrial area. It's kind of a destination... to like to get that many people out here. It's kind of a trick. But we do like to bring in food and so we do a lot of live music, especially like Friday and Saturday. And on Fridays we bring in local pizza during the show to have something to serve. We do have the cheese board with award winning cheeses like the Roth dill Havarti, Roth buttermilk blue cheese, and then we also have the Hooks one year aged cheddar, and then we serve that with gluten free almond flour, crackers, free refills by the way, and salted almonds and dried cranberries. And then other than that we... for big events, we like to work with a local barbecue company called Middleton Barbecue. And they provide... they make it's a catering only business and they make it a block away. So when we order it we're the stop that gets it the freshest. And they make homemade barbecue sauces, the pull pork, the buns they make in house, they have a jalapeno cornbread that's really good. And coleslaw, also homemade by them. And so those are the types of food that we offer. Typically from weekend to weekend. When we do events. We've done a lot of like food pairing events.

Walker Fanning 19:22

So I know this is going to come out a little bit later. But tomorrow we have a doughnut and hard cider pairing with Hurts Donuts. We've done food pairings with Clasen's. We did a sweet and savory one with Clasen's and then we also did a chocolate truffle pairing with Clasen's Bakery which is a local bakery to Middleton. It's been here for a long time. And we're working on a cheese and hard cider pairing. And actually, the city of Middleton also has the Mustard Museum and so we did a mustard and hard cider pairing a few weeks ago. And we bought these different type of super unique mustards from the mustard Museum, paired them with our cider, and then served it with a Clasen's pretzel. Clasen's soft, salted pretzel. And so that was a lot of fun as well. And so that's pretty much the extent of like the food that we do here. And that's because when you order in, when you get someone catering barbecue when you're buying doughnuts, or bakery items that they've prepared at a different facility, that allows you to still allow dogs. And where we are located on the west side and Middleton, there are not a lot, a lot of dog friendly venues, especially indoors. And I have a puppy, her name is Annie. And it was always hard to kind of find a place for her to come and hang out with me when I... when we were in town. So when I opened up my cidery I was trying to think of a plan that would allow us to continue to allow dogs and even if we had a little bit of food.

Connor Brekke 21:04

That mustard pairing sounds really interesting.

Walker Fanning 21:06

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 21:07

I drove by that on the way down here. And I was like, Oh, that's interesting.

Walker Fanning 21:11

Yeah, you should stuff in there. They have a whole museum in the basement.

Connor Brekke 21:15

Mustard?

Walker Fanning 21:16

Yeah, mustard.

Connor Brekke 21:17

Fascinating.

Walker Fanning 21:18

I think there's 2000 different kinds.

Connor Brekke 21:20

That's a lot.

Connor Brekke 21:21

Yeah. Not really a mustard Congress. Some pretty cool. So you guys, obviously bottle and distribute. Where can people find your stuff mostly in the Milton Madison Area? Or does it branch out a little farther, mainly Wisconsin, or?

Connor Brekke 21:22

Not really a.... mustard connesuer, but that does sound pretty cool. So you guys, obviously bottle and distribute. Where can people find your stuff? Mostly in the Middleton, Madison Area? Or does it branch out a little farther, mainly Wisconsin, or...?

Walker Fanning 21:38

Yeah, for now it's all in Wisconsin. And we're in the Milwaukee area, and the South Madison area. And we used to be in La Crosse, but we switched distributors. So it's not quite in to La Crosse anymore. But really the greater Madison and area, the Greater Milwaukee area. And then we're also now in the Fox Valley area, which is also kind of on the eastern side of the state kind of working its way north towards Door County.

Walker Fanning 21:38

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 21:38

So for anybody interested in trying your cider, or how can people find you or get ahold of you or you know, enjoy?

Walker Fanning 22:14

We're on Facebook and Instagram, Hidden Cave Cidery. And then we're also we have our own website, hiddencavecidery.com. And so we post all of our events there, we try to have something going on every weekend, we try to release new flavors every other week. The taps are always rotating. And then we also have a lot of live music. So our website, Facebook and Instagram are the best ways to stay in touch with what we're doing here.

Connor Brekke 22:42

And if you guys get a chance, come on down. It's a it's a really fun idea. It's... I just had a flight or before I did this and they're all really good. And I'm excited to come back again after the show and try some more so...

Walker Fanning 22:57

Support your local farmers!

Connor Brekke 22:59

Yes, indeed. It's always great to have something like this. That's very very community supportive. If you want to support local come on into hidden cave cidery. So until next time, cheers.

Walker Fanning 23:11

Cheers.

Connor Brekke 23:14

The Ombibulous is made possible with Castos, giving creators the tools to connect with their audience and community. The music is courteous of pond5. With over 25 million royalty free stock videos, music, photos, and sound effects there's something for every creator. Today's episode was recorded at Hidden Cave Cidery here in Middleton, Wisconsin. I'd like to thank Walker Fanning for the use of his time and facility to make this episode possible. For the latest updates, videos, photos and web links to our guests, please consider checking out our Ffacebook pageThe Ombibulous Podcast. And of course a big thank you to all our listeners. Thank you for all of your support. Until next time, cheers

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On today's episode, we take a trip out to the Nordic countries and discuss Nordic style beer. Be sure to check out our facebook page for photos and the latest updates. Cheers!

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SPEAKERS

Connor Brekke, Dylan Schafer

Connor Brekke 00:05

Hello everyone and welcome back to The Ombibulous, a show where we discuss a variety of topics about alcohol. From beer styles, the brewing process distillation, and spirits, even liquor laws, there's a fascinating world to discover. On today's episode, we discuss Nordic style beer. Joining me today is Dylan Schafer, owner of Dialectic Brewing Company here in Mandan, North Dakota. I'm your host, Connor Brekke. Let's all raise a glass to, The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:40

Welcome back to the show, everybody. I'm joined once again with Mr. Dylan Schafer. Thank you for coming back.

Dylan Schafer 00:46

Oh, absolutely.

Connor Brekke 00:47

And we have an interesting treat for everybody. We got a series of... things to talk about. Stuff that I'm very unfamiliar with. But, a lot of good information. Today we're gonna be learning about kind of a, like a Scandinavian style beer outreach. We'll be talking about different countries in Scandinavia, we'll dive into a bit about gruit and Sahti. It'll be a fun ride. So, Dylan, take 'er away.

Dylan Schafer 01:12

Yeah, it is a really, really fun topic to discuss. You don't see a lot of these traditional Scandinavian beers around very much outside of that region. We're actually experimenting with a recipe on it here down at dialectic. So we thought it'd be a good one to dive into. I think first things first, it's really important to note of what exactly we're talking about when we talk about traditional Scandinavian beer. As with a lot of beer around the world, country's borders don't really mean all that much when it comes to beer culture. To some extent it does. But for the most part, the brewing culture existed before a lot of these countries had delineated borders. So, there were just kind of regionally styles of brewing. So generally speaking, when we're talking about the Scandinavian beers, we're going to be diving a little bit into, you know, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, to some extent, this spills over into Finland. Pretty much any of that area of Northern Europe, that's known as that Scandinavian peninsula. There is definitely also some spillover with kind of Russian, German and styles from the Netherlands and Belgium and stuff. Again, it was that region's styles of beers, and there was a lot of spillover and brewing culture in that area.

Connor Brekke 02:24

And as we're talking about Scandinavian brewing, you... again back to the borders didn't really exist back then it was a bunch of different Germanic tribes. You know, there was a bunch of influence and cross culture mixing and beer as an alcoholic beverage as you drink has been around forever. So you know, it's not like it's one specific style. It's, it's this broad spectrum of different things that evolved throughout time in history.

Dylan Schafer 02:52

Yeah, absolutely. And like anywhere in the rest of the world, brewing beer has been going on since before long before we've had written history or written records. So especially when you had some of the nomadic groups of that kind of Nordic Region, you tended to have a lot of cross influence in their brewing practices, and just their preference, taste preferences, things of that nature. Which I guess segues us pretty well into kind of the history of beer in this region. You know, like I said, all around the world we've been brewing beer since before, we've been recording a history of brewing beer. But we know for sure that brewing in this region dates back to at least 1000 BC, and again, likely much earlier than that. So just like with beer around the rest of the world, a lot of these beers started out as home brews. People who had farms who happened to grow barley or wheat, or any of these cereal grains, those that's where brewing started. Eventually, that did morph into more of a business. But it usually started as kind of a home sustenance based activity. I guess when we're talking about this region, as well, it's important to note that these these groups that we're getting into home brewing and kind of starting the beer culture of the region, we are limited a little bit because a good chunk of this region of the world falls into the Arctic Circle. So obviously, we didn't have local farmers growing grain in the Arctic Circle. And so we're again more talking about this region that's kind of below that line of the Arctic Circle.

Dylan Schafer 04:25

And again, like anywhere, these all this brewing started out as pretty much an on the farm activity brewing, mostly ales because we didn't have access to cold storage and cold fermentation. So we were brewing warm, fermented ales, largely on the farm. And as we became as this region became a little more settled and community started develop, then we saw the transition over to kind of the small scale economics of it. So you may have a local brew pub and a little community that's brewing for that community, but not exporting beer outside of that particular community. And like a bunch of other regions in the world, eventually as we started to hit kind of... oh it must have been mid to late 1900s, is when we started to see kind of bigger brewing conglomerates and bigger brewing companies move into the area. Which obviously did to some extent, stifle creativity. That's where we saw a lot of people today think of this region's beers as being lagered beers, pilsners, lagers, dark lagers, things of that nature. Again, historically, they would have been ales with warm fermentation. But as big beer took over the region, we started to see things kind of get rid of, excuse me, reduced down to your kind of light, easy drinking lagers and pilsners. and things of that nature.

Connor Brekke 05:49

Because as we touched in a previous episode, beer was sustenance, back then pretty much.

Dylan Schafer 05:54

Absolutely, yeah. And when it was a sustenance thing, you did tend to see a greater variety of styles being produced, because they were very regionally specific styles. Yeah, I guess it was probably by like the late in the 20th century, kind of an you know, 1980s and 1990s. Again, we saw this trend around of the rest of the world in large part too. But we started to see a little more bit more consumer consciousness, and a lot of consumers started going back to and demanding local product. And then we saw the rise of more micro breweries and smaller brew pubs and things of that nature. And I'm sure that's going to be a common theme when we talk about any region's beer culture. Generally speaking, we see a follow the line of things started out as a sustenance production on the farm within the family that grew into a small scale economy. As industrialization happened, we pretty much saw big beer take over regions. And then it was kind of in the late 20th century that we saw small scale production start to come back. And we saw bigger demand for those more locally produced beverages,

Connor Brekke 07:05

Right, the kind of bringing back a farm to table type things.

Dylan Schafer 07:09

Yes, absolutely. But yeah, so that's kind of the the general history that this region saw as far as their beer production goes. Again, it's a kind of a common thread all around. But it's definitely worth pointing out because it gives us a baseline on where these people started from, and where their styles develop from. As I mentioned, a lot of these styles started out being brewed on the farm. And most of the early beer that we saw in this region was what we would call Scandinavian kind of farmhouse ales. So a lot of them are going to have a little bit more of that funky, yeasty character being as they were typically fermented with wild yeast on the farm. And that's where we see that term farmhouse ales, we see it a lot in Belgian beers, and that absolutely spilled over up into that Scandinavian peninsula as well. And it's kind of interesting. When it comes to brewing beer, I think a lot, especially consumers today, a lot of us think of hops as being like a very, very integral integral part of brewing a beer. Historically speaking, though, that very much wasn't always the case. There's a lot of regions around the world that hops didn't grow naturally. And historically speaking, people tended to use other options to achieve the same purpose that hops were doing. And I think we've touched on this in an episode before but kind of generally speaking, hops are going to be used to give beer its bitterness to balance out the sweetness of the grain. And then on top of giving a bitterness hops also have antibacterial and antimicrobial properties. So it really helps for shelf life or sustainability of that beer.

Connor Brekke 08:48

Because beer back then was... I kind of alluded to like tea, it's herbal, because hops weren't as mass produced, and as you know, they do grow everywhere, but they haven't been like transplanted all around the world and crossbred and all these things. So you needed herbs or something to mild it down a little bit. You have all these different types of herbs, you can throw on it, like juniper, for example.

Dylan Schafer 09:13

Absolutely. And that's I'm glad you brought up juniper, because that's going to be one that we notice as a very common theme throughout this discussion as we'll see, juniper come up quite a bit in the Scandinavian beers. Which makes sense, that region has plenty of access to juniper. So it makes sense that we would see that one popping up here and there. And in addition to juniper, there was I mean, just a whole host of other herbs and spices that could be used to achieve the same thing that we think of hops giving the bitterness. I mean, there are dozens and dozens of herbs and kind of depending on the region, the area, the particular brewer, you'd see kind of a different use of these things. You know, usually we're gonna see herbs such as gail, mugwort, yarrow, ivy, juniper like you mentioned, even ginger and nutmeg. And again, depending on what was readily available to you as a producer, that's what you used for spices when you were brewing beer. Generally speaking, this spice mixture was usually called gruit. Again, that's somewhat of a regionally specific term, mostly coming from the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, that area, but it was basically that gruit was just a term for the mix of spices used in brewing beer. And we do see that term used even in modern day production of certain styles of beer, typically ones that don't use a lot of hops, but use a gruit instead just a mixture of spices.

Connor Brekke 10:42

And then we can kind of transfer into sahti with that it's kind of the same thing. But it's unhopped, and it's Finland specific.

Dylan Schafer 10:50

Yep, absolutely. And the end, we're gonna see a few different names, you know, like the gruit and sahti, very, very similar concepts. And largely regionally specific, you know, sahti being from Finland gruit being from more Netherlands, Belgium and Germany. And it's important to to note, like you mentioned, the sahti was an unpopped beer. So for a big chunk of history in this kind of Scandinavian brewing culture, ales, were not what we think of ales as today. So in today's terminology, craft beer drinker thinks of an ale as being a warm top fermented beer, and then a lager, the opposite being a cold bottom fermented beer. Well early on in the kind of Scandinavian brewing culture the term ale meant something very, very different. Ale was a term for a beer that was brewed, not using hops. And then beer was just the general term used for beer that you know, likely included hops. So, they used als kind of a specific term to refer to what ingredients were going into the beer apart from hops, which is kind of a unique concept. And then obviously, eventually that ale became known as anything warm fermented. Lager anything cool fermented, and that's what we think of it and and how we regard it in the modern day,

Connor Brekke 12:10

Right. And then keep in mind that all these regions had their own languages and their own terms, and that at some point, we had to categorize this stuff.

Dylan Schafer 12:17

Yeah, absolutely.

Connor Brekke 12:18

In the modern world.

Dylan Schafer 12:19

Especially as we see it, you know, a globalized economy there became somewhat of a need to kind of standardize things. But another one, I think that's worth mentioning to another one of these styles, we talked a little bit about gruit being this mix of kind of herbs and spices used in brewing, how that varied. It could have varied significantly from supplier to supplier and brewer to brewer. Sahti being a very similar thing, except an unhopped beer, gruit, could easily have contained hops, where sahti was very specifically an unchopped beer. And again, sahti very, very typically used juniper that was the dominant character in brewing a sahti. We see a very, very similar thing when we look at the, the Gotlandsdricka, is what it's called. And this is a spice beer largely from the island of Gotland in Sweden. And again, this was another beer that coming out of Sweden a little bit different area, but focused heavily on being kind of, they would occasionally use hops, but typically a lightly hopped or undeveloped beer that really utilize the character of Juniper in there. And this, the Gotlandsdricka is actually the beer that we're experimenting with brewing here at dialectic. Me and Connor are actually sampling some straight out of the fermenter right now. One of the really interesting things with this style is historically you would serve it very, very young. As young as being still in the middle of fermentation when you serve it. So typically, it was going to be served warm, flat, like a lot of the historic beers were and on top of that, you'll get a little bit more of that rich malty sweetness out of it, just because it's still in the process of fermenting and hasn't eaten up all those residual malt sugars yet.

Connor Brekke 14:05

That is exactly how we are drinking it. It's um... you can check a picture out of it on our Facebook it looks visually like a super hazy IPA. It has that really nice kind of burnt orange like dreamsicle, creamsicle...

Dylan Schafer 14:20

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 14:20

... color to it. You get that cloudiness in it. And it's, it's interesting. I really, really, really wish I would have had more of this previously, because it's super smooth. It's super flavorful. I don't even care that it's flat. It's it's like a juice.

Dylan Schafer 14:36

Yeah, absolutely.

Connor Brekke 14:37

It's like a tea really. I mean, it's, it's, it's an alcoholic tea to me. And I'm not saying that in a bad way. It's just really interesting.

Dylan Schafer 14:46

And you definitely notice again, following kind of the traditional brewing style on this one, we did use a heavy dose of juniper on this beer. And I also did use some hops in the mix, but being as the style originated kind of as a locally produced thing for this region, I figured I'd kind of stick with that theme in brewing this. So this beer is actually brewed with all North Dakota grain. It's brewed with fresh cut juniper bows from right here in Mandan. And then also all the hops in this beer were grown over just right across the river in Bismarck. So this is a very, very local beer, I figured it'd be fun to stick with that kind of tradition of the old world brewing and keeping it local.

Connor Brekke 15:28

And it turned out really good.

Dylan Schafer 15:30

Yeah, it's a really fun style. I know it would, it would definitely be weird for people to dive into this warm or not really warm, but you know, about 60 degrees fahrenheit is what this beer is at right now. And so for a lot of people, when they think of drinking a beer, they're not going to think of drinking a room temperature, flat beer that has almost no perceivable hop character. I use hops to definitely get it just just a little bit of bitterness put the showcase of this beer 100% is the Juniper. And that was a very, very common thing in the Scandinavian and Nordic Region of the world at the time.

Connor Brekke 16:04

And this is one of the few... like... tried and true best you can historic beers I've had. So, this is kind of one of those beers that you should almost have it on like a plaque with like an information card or something just so people can read the story of it.

Dylan Schafer 16:17

Yeah, really appreciate it for what it is.

Connor Brekke 16:19

Because I think your average beer drinker might be, you know, we got... there's a lot of really adventurous people around here, especially coming into this place. But I think if you're a certain way with your beer, this might be a little bit off putting.

Dylan Schafer 16:32

Oh yeah.

Connor Brekke 16:32

If you're used to drinking, you know what you're used to drinking; carbonated, cold. This is kind of a bit of a shocker. But it's worth it, I mean, step out your comfort zone.

Dylan Schafer 16:43

And I will say when it comes time to serve this beer, the way we're drinking it right now, what we typically think of as beer, this would have another probably five or six days of fermenting to go and then cold crashed and carbonated. That's how you would typically think of serving a beer. And this one, we are going to ultimately do that with when we serve it to the general public, we will let it finish fermenting all the way out, get it cold and carbonated and put it on tap. We do have a handful of customers down here who are really interested in trying the style as it was meant to be tried. So later this week, actually, we're going to be having a little tasting with some of the customers who expressed interest in trying it the historically appropriate way. So we'll give people a chance to try it as it's meant to be drinking. Young, still fermenting, room temperature, and flat. And then for the general public, we will put it on tap and cool it down and give it some gas to make it a little more like what they think of as a normal beer. Given the juniper character is right in your face and it's going to obviously signify to you that this is not just a normal beer, but. And so as as we've kind of hit on a few times this this underlying thread of juniper in this style of beers. Not only was juniper used kind of as an ingredient in brewing beer in this region, but it was also a really, really important tool for this region as well.

Dylan Schafer 18:10

So historically speaking, brewing equipment in the early brewing days was pretty simplistic. You were typically doing all your mashing or your steeping of grains in a wood vessel. And we didn't have the availability of kind of commercially produced stainless steel false bottoms, but we still needed a way to separate the, the solid grain matter from the liquid that we're looking to turn into beer. One great way to do that was by lining the bottom of that barrel with something that can act as kind of a filter medium. Juniper happens to make a really great one. If you line the bottom of your vessel, kind of weave at the bottom of your vessel with juniper, when you're done brewing, and you go to drain off that liquid, and you want to leave all the solid drain behind, you can open up that valve drain the liquid off the bottom, the juniper catches all of the the residual grain and you're left with just the liquid. Really convenient way of using a local product. But as you can imagine, it becomes an ingredient as well as a tool at that point because using it as a filter during your mash is going to obviously impart a pretty distinctive juniper character. And when we brewed our Gotlandsdricka here at Dialectic, we followed that tradition instead of... there's some modern day brewers who are brewing grew it's and things like that where they're using juniper berries during the boil to give it that Juniper character. We want to, again, keep with a very historical traditional way of brewing this. So we pulled the false bottom out of my mash tun. We lined the bottom of it with some inner woven, fresh cut juniper boughs, and then brewed right on top of that. And I'm kind of honestly surprised at how much juniper character comes through. I had never brewed a beer this way. I've I've really always wanted to and I've had other beers that were brewed in this fashion. So it was a really fun experiment for me to really go all in on doing it the traditional way. And I was very pleasantly surprised. And I'll say this too, I also happen to be a gin drinker. And so the the overlap between something like a sahti, or a gruit, or a Gotlandsdricka, you're gonna see that significant overlap with some of the the gin flavor profiles and stuff as well.

Connor Brekke 20:32

Yeah, it definitely has them. Again, going back to the herbalness the florals and everything of herbs, juniper,

Dylan Schafer 20:40

And you do get a little, you know, obviously in the beer form, you get a little bit more of that really rich, sweet malt character, whereas something like a gin is gonna be all that's distilled out of the product. So but yeah, it's it's a really fun style. It's a cool culture of brewing in general, all the use of these herbs and spices and juniper as a tool and an ingredient. And I mean, on top of using the juniper as the bottom of a mash tun. It was frequently used as a cleaning product in this region as well. So it kind of covered all bases. When it comes to brewing beer, it was a very utilitarian thing. I mean, you could use it as an ingredient, ingredient to impart the iconic flavor of this region's beer, you could use it as a tool to filter out the spent grain from the liquid that you're looking to get out. And on top of that, you would use basically a decoction of juniper and warm water to scrub all your containers. Because juniper also happens to have these antimicrobial antibacterial properties, just like hops do.

Dylan Schafer 21:48

You know, I think it's important to note that a lot of these styles too are not, you're not going to see him around near as much today as you would have... you know, a couple 100 years ago, a couple or 1000 years ago, even. The production of hops, the large scale production of hops and the use of hops in craft brewing has really pushed some of these styles out of the picture. For one, hops are insanely cheap when you compare it to a spice mixture like gruit. Gruit is going to be, pound for pound, is going to be far more expensive than hops are. Hops are really resilient. They're pretty easy to grow. It's being as they see all vertical growth, they're easy to grow in just absolutely astronomical quantities. So hops have pretty much taken over all styles as the preferred herb to use in terms of bittering and antibacterial properties for the preservation of beer. That's not to say you can't find these styles occasionally. I know I'm pretty sure New Belgium at one point was brewing a gruit. I've seen a few gruits and sahties out on the market. We're doing this Gotlandsdricka. And this is... not one that I have ever seen on the market. But supposedly in Gotland it has maintained some holding and is still you can still find it on the island of Gotland.

Connor Brekke 23:14

I kind of wanted to touch up about one of my favorite places to visit, shameless plug the Iceland here. So Iceland beer has... kind of a rocky history. It existed for a while beginning with the norseman settlement. Interesting enough, they're more mead drinkers. But again, this is coming from that Scandinavian region. You had Vikings from Denmark, you had Vikings from Sweden, you had Vikings from Norway, you had this intermingle. Back when Iceland was first settled, you know, the parlament was established in like the year 800 something... so a while ago. Iceland was actually quite a bit more lush and green. So they had more plant varietals, they could, they could do more with their stuff. Because you have that current going along with the west coast of it, you have an actual warmer climate, so you're actually able to grow surprisingly, like interesting stuff. Pair that with the volcanic soil. But anyways, history goes and I guess at some point, the parliament decided to prohibition the country as far as alcohol is concerned.

Dylan Schafer 24:25

Which is another shame, shameful trend that we see all around the world.

Connor Brekke 24:31

Basically, beer became kind of less and less of a thing as society moved on, you have kind of this resurgence of brewing in like the German, Belgian, that area of the world. Basically, they passed a referendum in 1908, complete ban on alcohol, but there's kind of a conflict between Spain and Portugal. Interestingly enough, they wanted to keep sending their wines that way. So they're going to basically stop importing Iceland's cod. It's like "we'll give you wine and you give us fish." You know, so wine actually stayed. But I think there was a stipulation about what wine had to be and everything. And it lasted, this prohibition lasted, like all the way up to 1988. So Iceland's Parliament the, Althing, I have the actual date here, founded in 930 in Þingvellir, basically said, "yep, time to bring it back." But they legalized beer above 2.25% ABV. So the actual restrictions were lifted on the first of March 1989. And fun enough, beer Day is celebrated on March 1 there. So now we have this post prohibition thing going on. It's the resurgence of beer. And it's been kind of a slow process, you know, it's... ever country's got to kind of find their own way coming out of something like this. But basically, slowly but surely, they started to make more and more beer. As of 2007, they were selling about, oh, 19 and a half million liters, which going from none to that and then realize the population of Iceland isn't that big. It's..

Dylan Schafer 26:16

It's mot a very big island to begin with.

Connor Brekke 26:19

It's not a very heavily populated country, but now you actually have some heavy hitters. I can't pronounce any of these.

Dylan Schafer 26:29

Iceland is like a ridiculously difficult language too so.

Connor Brekke 26:34

Last time I visited, you could definitely tell the beer scene was going crazy there. There was a few of them that I went to and they were all really great. You have that glacier water I'm sure they're using or, you know, just clean ingredients. And the way they're doing it is this quite interesting. It's it's I'm happy that Iceland is coming back with this. They have a lot of potential and I'm looking forward to seeing more of their stuff on the market to get it more in the US and across the world.

Dylan Schafer 27:05

And I'm... so I'm kind of curious, having never bend, having never been to Iceland, but being somewhat familiar with some of these kind of Scandinavian styles of beer. Um, what did you see for styles of beer when you were in Iceland, where they lagers, ales, kind of a mix of everything?

Connor Brekke 27:22

The one that I remember the most was Gull. I'm probably pronouncing that wrong. It means gold. It's um, it's like a pale Munich lager if I recal? Pilsner I imagine.

Dylan Schafer 27:24

Yup.

Connor Brekke 27:29

It's actually one of the older brands, I think it was, I think it came to be like, right, right after the prohibition ended. I remember that one the most. But then there's, oh, man, there's quite a few different styles. I've had dark ales, the lager style. I don't remember having too many sours. I know that they're there because I did um... there's a few places I went to where they give you like a beer card and you like check it off. You just go around. But it was... you know, it's an emerging market. So there's a lot of trial and error, I imagine there's a lot of experimentals is going on. One of the places I do remember the name was Bryggjan Brugghús, which changed. I think... they... they're something different now. The same location, but it's like a really nice bistro style restaurant. And then they have a pretty fancy brewing system in the back, they actually... I got a tour of it. And I think I exchanged some stickers with you this place, but they had a pretty intensive menu, like a lot of stuff you find in the North American craft brewery for remember, right, different... darks, you had lights, you had hoppy beer. And of course, some of these ingredients have have to be imported.

Dylan Schafer 28:53

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 28:53

It is an Island, and they don't produce everything. But I think they're doing a really good job from what I remember, this was, I think 2019 is the last time so it's been a while.

Dylan Schafer 29:03

And I do feel like in the modern day in a globalized market, it's inevitable, we are going to see the cultural influence of all these different styles of beer. You know, the influence of North American styles, the spilling over to Iceland and Scotland and Germany and the influence of German beer spilling over all around the world. And that's, you know, that's just the world we live in these days so. And I also have to think there's probably plenty of great brewers over there in Iceland. Even though prohibition lasted for such a long time. I have to imagine that they were just about like every other country that tried prohibition, there were probably still folks making it during that timeframe.

Connor Brekke 29:46

Oh yeah.

Dylan Schafer 29:46

You just, you just couldn't do it out in public.

Connor Brekke 29:49

So it's interesting because there's... and I would have to dig really hard, but it was kind of hard to find information in that you know, 1000 some years period between the founding and prohibition of specific beer styles.

Dylan Schafer 30:05

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 30:06

I'm just taking the assumption that it was very similar to what we just talked about with the Scandinavian style in general.

Dylan Schafer 30:13

And I would think there would be a pretty significant spill over there. Again, when we were talking about some of the Viking groups and things like that, that were, I mean, they travel they traveled, they covered some some ground and some ocean. So you'd have to think that the different cultures that they encountered had influence on the beers of that entire region, because while there was just so much spill over there.

Connor Brekke 30:40

And I would imagine, the Icelanders would have much more better access to historical data and information than me living in North Dakota trying to scour...

Connor Brekke 30:49

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 30:49

...the internet. I'm definitely hoping that somebody somewhere can dig up an old proto recipe of a beer or something, and then kind of try and make a traditional one that'd be really exciting to see some historic stuff coming back, especially that Nordic style too.

Dylan Schafer 31:06

And, you know, that's what's interesting. I, I know that cultural, cultural appropriation can be a tough thing to to address. I, I'm a trained sociologist who happens to also own a brewery. And so that can be a really, really tricky thing when you're when you're making money on someone else's culture. But I also have this huge appreciation for people who are willing to experiment and bring back these old styles of beer. I think that the craft beer industry is so welcoming and open enough that the sharing of these ideas is a really vital thing in our industry and seeing people come up with you know, traditional Norwegian styles or traditional Icelandic styles. I'm really excited that there's kind of been a little bit of resurgence in the craft beer industry of bringing back some of these historical styles of beer.

Connor Brekke 32:00

Yes, and I do see more and more stuff popping up. I watch a lot of YouTube, I watch a lot of beer related alcohol related things, just you know, to help with this show. And there's more and more of it popping up and it makes me happy. I was actually watching this gentleman's channel... his channel, and I think his name is Townsend's. He's like a historic reenactor. I mean, he does everything he he's got the clothing, he's got the cast iron, campfire, everything, but he was making beer that they would have drank during the Civil War. And then during like the Revolutionary War, he was just going out with like, you know, the old style tools that you would have had back then harvesting tree branches and cooking in a big cast iron pot and everything. It was like, wow, this is really interesting.

Dylan Schafer 32:49

And you know, I'm sure, like, any timeframe, there were some bad ones and there were some good ones, right? I'm sure plenty of people in the, you know, 1200s or 1100s, brewed some beer that wasn't so great. And plenty of people today are brewing beer that isn't always so great. But I just love seeing the experimentation and the willingness to try these historic things. It's super exciting for me. I feel like the craft beer industry had a almost a little bit of stretch of time where we kind of just took existing styles and maybe bastardize them a little bit if that's the right terminology?

Connor Brekke 33:26

Yeah.

Dylan Schafer 33:26

You know, we we took IPAs, and we threw a bunch of lactose and fruit in them. And don't get me wrong. That's a very unique beer and they can be very, very delicious these milkshake IPAs. But, but it's kind of just taking a style and throwing anything that will stick at it. So I think going back to some of the roots is a really exciting trend that I like seeing. I as I'm sure you know, Connor I love brewing historic beers. I love brewing and traditional styles and using traditional ingredients and I can't wait I really hope that our craft beer industry keeps the trend going in that direction a little bit. I think it'll be an exciting new thing for a lot of people.

Connor Brekke 34:06

So for people at home listening to this, whether you're in North Dakota or anywhere else in the country or the world, finding Nordic beers, at least in our area in North Dakota is... I guess I haven't found any really. If you live in a city you might be able to find something in a bigger liquor store. You can always scour the internet. That's how I found the Belgian ales and the Trappist ales. It's just some of this stuff is a little bit more difficult to get ahold of than others. A lot of it has to do with various laws and the way companies import and what's allowed to be imported and all that different kinds of stuff. I guess, if you want something that might be similar, I would say maybe like a farmhouse ale?

Dylan Schafer 34:50

Yeah, absolutely. Again, and there are some companies who are brewing... you might find a craft brewery in your area that releases a gruit or a sahti or something like that, but there'll be few and far between.

Connor Brekke 35:04

So hopefully we can bring back some of this stuff. So any of you homebrewers out there listening, be something to definitely get into, I think.

Dylan Schafer 35:13

Yeah, I absolutely agree.

Connor Brekke 35:15

It's a fun style. Well, we had a nice little Scandinavian adventure talking about different types of beer of the area went through the history, a little country specific, and even got a chance to try, the version you're making here at Dialectic. I guess for those listening at home, keep... keep looking, keep searching, keep staying curious, keep trying new things and exploring, visit your local brewery talk. Maybe you can coax them into making the style like this. So, until next time, cheers.

Connor Brekke 35:48

The Ombibulous is made possible with Castos, giving creators the tools to connect with their audience and community. The music is courteous of Pond5. With over 25 million royalty free stock videos, music, photos and sound effects there's something every creator. I would like to thank Dylan Schafer for the use of his facility and time to create this episode. Today's content was recorded here at Dialectic Brewing Company in Mandan, North Dakota. For the latest updates, videos, photos, and web links to our guests, please consider checking out our Facebook page, The Ombibulous Podcast. And of course a big thank you to all our listeners. Thank you for all of your support. Until next time, cheers

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On today's episode, we bring back Susan Ruud and introduce you to Fargo, North Dakota's Prairie Rose Meadery. Learn a bit about the buisness and how they came to be. We hope you can get a chance to try some of their award winning meads. Cheers!

https://www.prairierosemeadery.com

SPEAKERS

Susan Ruud, Connor Brekke

Connor Brekke 00:04

Hello everyone and welcome back to The Ombibulous, a show where we discuss a variety of topics about alcohol. From beer styles, the brewing process, distillation, spirits and even liquor laws, there's a fascinating world to discover. On today's episode, we learn how Fargo North Dakota's very own Prairie Rose Meadery came to be. Joining me today is Susan Ruud of Fargo, North Dakota's very own Prairie Rose Meadery. I'm your host Connor Brekke. Let's all raise a glass to The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:41

Hello, everybody and welcome back to the show. I'm joined once again with Susan from Prairie Rose mediary here in Fargo, North Dakota. Welcome to the show. Thank you for coming back on. We're going to talk about North Dakota mead. The previous episode we talked about what mead is. But, I'm going to introduce you to Susan and Prairie Rose Meadery today. All right, so Susan, let people know who you are and how you got into the mead world.

Susan Ruud 01:09

Hi, I'm Susan Ruud. My husband and I, my husband Bob, and myself have started prairie Rose Meadery. We started making mean I guess at home in the early 90s. I work at, I also work at NDSU in plant pathology. So some friends of mine, we would sit at coffee, coworkers, and they were homebrewers. They made mead. So I would listen to them talking about brewing and. I think I went, went over to their house a few times tried some home beers and some home meads. And from the first second, we tried mead, both my Bob and I absolutely loved mead. I think a week or so after we had our first mead, we had a friend out and he was showing us how to make mead we we sat on our deck and made a batch mead and drink some beers and more mead. And yeah, it was a great time. I remember the date October 12, 1996 my first mead, I only remember that because it was my parents anniversary and the couple that was showing us how to make the mead it was their anniversary. It's kind of fun.

Susan Ruud 02:20

So we started making mead in 96. Got into home brewing both mead and beer. When I go into hobby I go gung ho so, entered a few competitions and won a few medals, both in beer and mead and and then I joined the American Home Brewers Association and ran for their board. Oh, at that time, it was a board of advisors. And actually I won I don't know how. I actually attribute that to some of my really good homebrewing friends in Kansas City. They had a fairly big club at the time and I went down to some of their competitions. And so I think them and the Minneapolis crowd probably voted for me so I have to thank them because that just got me into many, many years of being immersed in home brewing and meat making all across the US. You go to their conferences, you meet people on the East Coast people on the West Coast, center the country, so I get to know a lot of homebrewers a lot of mead makers, both home and professional and it just grew from there. So I believe I was on that governing... er it was a board of advisors turned into a governing committee for the American homeowners association for almost 20 years I was on there. I actually had to take a year, year off in the middle of that because you could only be on three terms and you had, you had to take some time off. So I did take a year off in the middle but and then I ran again and now I'm actually not on there anymore. But I'm on the board of directors for the American meat makers Association. So I just like to be involved I guess or I'm a glutton for punishment one or the other. However you look at it.

Connor Brekke 04:14

The involvement definitly shows in your guys' mead.

Susan Ruud 04:17

Yeah. And then I think... when did we open? We've been open six years now so 2015 we, we decided, to decided in about 2014 that we wanted to open a meadery. Toook close to a year by the time we got through all the all the deciding what we wanted to do, did we really want to do it, a filing for licensing, finding a location, all of those fun things took a while and we opened in May of 2015 I believe.

Susan Ruud 04:24

What was the location hunting like?

Susan Ruud 04:47

Um... it was interesting. Our location we have now the space inside is pretty good but the location is kind of hidden. So I consider us one of Fargo's best hidden secrets. People are finding us now, hearing about us a little more. But first couple of years was a little challenging. Not only because so many people just still to this day so many people have never even heard of mead. So getting the word out on mead it is it's been interesting. I've had many people come in and "oh, we're checking out all the area wineries. What do you have? That's like a merlo." It's like, nothing. Because we're not wine, we're mead. So that's it's been interesting, but usually I can find something in our lineup that they all enjoy. So that's always been fun, letting people know what mead is and, and getting them to try it.

Connor Brekke 05:44

Expanding the mind is always a good thing.

Susan Ruud 05:47

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 05:47

So the name Prairie Rose Meadery, that's because it's North Dakota?

Susan Ruud 05:52

Yeah. Prairie rose, is the North Dakota State flower. Both my husband and I grew up in North Dakota. We have now and I guess we both maybe had thoughts of moving away from North Dakota but we never have. Love the people here, love the wide open spaces and a little bit slower life than when you get into a bigger city and yeah, no. So that's, that was where our name came from. You come into our meadery we've kind of kind of set it up but originally it was set up more to be like your grandmother's parlor, we've kind of changed things up a little bit, but it's a

Connor Brekke 06:31

It's a very relaxing environment. I remember the first time I came in here is actually with my mom. We took a road trip just wanted to see things and we pulled out one of those ND Tourism guides and like "ah, mead, we got to check it out." And it was it was just very warming and welcoming. And...

Susan Ruud 06:49

Thank you.

Connor Brekke 06:50

...very, very pleasant experience. It was... you know, just one of those things that you remember for the rest of your life personally, I think so. Well done.

Susan Ruud 06:59

Thank you.

Connor Brekke 07:00

So as far as the meads you guys serve you have quite a variety of different things you've got... you're, my favorite strawberry rhubarb. I can't get away from strawberry rhubarb in this state. Do you have any highlights for the meads that you make? You've won a lot of awards too.

Susan Ruud 07:18

Yeah, I guess our biggest awards have been one with our traditional. We've won several awards with that, a couple gold medals and our ginger mead we do really well with that. I think we get a gold medal with that at the Mazer cup which is a fairly big competition. That that one, we actually... it's really nice to drink just straight but it's also very refreshing especially this, in this hot summer weather. To blend it 50/50 with sour and a splash lime. It's kind of like a lighter Moscow Mule drink with very refreshing. Our vanilla cinnamon is one of my favorites. That one is very good. Our latest is a it's a honey mohito. It's got the similar flavors to a mohito it's lime and mint with a honey background. That one, that one I like just straight to but again now one is one that you can just put over the rocks and drink and it's really good in the summer a little more refreshing that way.

Susan Ruud 08:23

But we also have have things like... we have a wide variety we have quite a few different fruit. For fruit we've got blackberry blueberry, apricots, white grape, red grape, wow... pineapple, chipotle, but we have fruit and spice. We have an orange spice which is blood orange and mulling spices. We have the ginger vanilla cinnamon are our non fruit ones. We've got a maple mead which is um... and that and that you asked me earlier about if I aged meads, I don't know if it was the segment or the last one, but yes, that one we did age a year and a half. It's aged age with the maple with a maple and then aged on oak for about six months on oak. We let it age initially just on its own and it wasn't quite... it is still a little too sweet now we added oak do it then really softened it up and balanced it. And then we've got a couple we've got a one aged in a gin barrel when aged in a single malt barrel. We also had bourbon but that one's all sold out. What else do we have? We have another bourbon one coming though we do have that in the barrel and hasn't been bottled yet. We've got... oh our carmel our bouchet. We carmelized honey, took a couple of weeks of slow heating to carmelize the honey, and then we made... added apple juice and cinnamon to that so that's our Carmel Apple. Yeah, we have a lot of them.

Connor Brekke 10:01

Very impressive lineup.

Susan Ruud 10:02

We have a lot I just get I go crazy you know.

Connor Brekke 10:05

More variety for people so it's always it's always fun and then you also do meat and cheese trays too.

Susan Ruud 10:12

Yep. Yeah, we have we have some meat and cheese and you can come in and you can... what we generally do is a sample flight, which is four, four ounces of our mead in four one ounce pours of our mead. And you can try any four of anything on our lineup and you can do several flights or you can you pick find one yeah absolutely love you can have a glass of that. So we do this flights by the glass so we have bottles to go. I think you can also find us in Fargo locally at Happy Harry's. Bismarck I know we're in Gee Williquors. I think we're in a few other places around the state which aren't coming to me right now but.

Connor Brekke 10:51

It's okay because you can also ship within the state too...

Susan Ruud 10:54

Yes.

Connor Brekke 10:54

...and other states too. But for you local listeners who want to try, you know your your home state's mead you can just go to their website Prairie Rose Meadery and go online and order stuff.

Susan Ruud 11:05

Yep.

Connor Brekke 11:06

So you guys have something that's called a mead club.

Susan Ruud 11:08

Yes.

Connor Brekke 11:09

How can a person join that

Susan Ruud 11:11

Um, if you go on our website, again, there's also there... it's a "buy mead" and then "mead club" is right there. So you would join our mead club through our shipping site. We actually shipped throughout the state with a... you can get to it from our website, but it's a company called Vino Shipper. And so I set up the wine club in there I believe it's six bottles that we ship out quarterly the four times a year. I want to say it's a 15 or 20% discount off of, off of our meads... you, and then I think free shipping.

Connor Brekke 11:44

Which is always a great way to enjoy something to have it delivered to your house, and then you can enjoy it. Especially for those winters where it's tough to travel. So who else works here your husband?

Susan Ruud 11:55

My husband and I, my son will sometimes help out. We have a one friend that comes in and covers if my husband and I can't be here and that's about it. It's all pretty much a family, family run business.

Connor Brekke 12:10

That's a lot of work.

Susan Ruud 12:11

Eh, it's fun.

Connor Brekke 12:13

Yeah, if you enjoy doing what you're doing

Susan Ruud 12:15

Yeah, and we say we have limited tasting room hours. We're only open Thursday Friday evenings. Saturday pretty much 11 to 10 and Sunday noon to six. So, we aren't here all the time but then the other days where we might be making mead or filtering mead or al some of that stuff

Connor Brekke 12:35

All the work that goes into making what you guys produce.

Susan Ruud 12:37

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 12:38

Do you have any like future upcoming plans or anything that you want to...

Susan Ruud 12:42

Right now where we are at the farmers market downtown. Red River Market every Saturday from 10am to 2pm through October. So you can find us there if you don't want to come out to the meadery. We're going to be at several Pride of Dakota shows this year, which I'm so excited are back everything's running again and people can get out/ Eventually next summer, I was actually going planning it this summer but too many things have came up otherwise that I.... next summer I'm going to try and plan a honey festival so just at the meadery but in the parking lot here. Now that I've actually spoken that out here I have to do it.

Connor Brekke 13:24

A little motivation.

Susan Ruud 13:25

Yep. So and that would be like little craft booths and honey booths and you know maybe a couple of, maybe a brewery or another winery or something to... just a kind of a fun...

Connor Brekke 13:37

Yeah.

Susan Ruud 13:37

...market event type thing.

Connor Brekke 13:39

Differently sounds fun.

Susan Ruud 13:41

Yeah, like I said everybody is welcome to come in and we love having customers here and Bob will make you feel like you're one of the family. Come on into the meadery.

Connor Brekke 13:50

Are you guys on Facebook too?

Susan Ruud 13:51

Yes.

Connor Brekke 13:52

OK.

Susan Ruud 13:52

It's Facebook is Prairie Rose Meadery. I think it's just Facebook slash Prairie Rose Meadery. Should be able to find us there. I have a Twitter account but I'm really pathetic at, at doing that. And I and a what's the other one? Instagram. I do post things to Instagram a bit. But yeah, if you're on Facebook, you can always message me through Facebook or I believe our phone number is on on our website. If you have questions and want to call.

Connor Brekke 14:21

So, ladys and gentlemen, there you go. You don't have any excuse to not try some mead. So thank you for coming back on the show and being my mead expert, appreceate it.

Susan Ruud 14:31

Thank you.

Connor Brekke 14:32

I hope more people come in and experience mead and it's it's such a wonderful thing to try. You guys really need to either come in or order some. So with that thought I will leave you all until next time. Cheers.

Connor Brekke 14:47

The Ombibulous is made possible with Castos, giving creators the tools to connect with their audience and community. The music is courteous of Pond5. With over 25 million royalty free stock videos music photos, and sound effects, there's something for every creator. Today's episode was recorded at Prairie Rose Mediary here in Fargo, North Dakota. I'd like to thank Susan for her time and the use of this facility to make this episode possible. For the latest updates, videos, photos and web links to our guests, please consider checking out our Facebook page, The Ombibulous Podcast. And of course a big thank you to all our listeners. Thank you for all of your support. Until next time, cheers!

View Details

On this eposide, we do a spin off of Belgian Beer and talk about Trappist Beer. We will also be tasting some Trappist Beer from Spencer Brewing out of Massachusetts, USA. Check out his link to watch the tasting on Youtube. https://youtu.be/cghlMZsoX7M

And feel free to check out our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/theombibulouspodcast for the latest photos, updates, and links to our guests.

Cheers!

SPEAKERS

Connor Brekke, Dylan Schafer

Connor Brekke 00:04

Hello everyone and welcome back to The Ombibulous, a show where we discuss a variety of topics about alcohol. From beer styles, the brewing process, distillation in spirits and even liquor laws, there's a fascinating world to discover. On today's episode, we talk about Trappist Monk beer. Joining me today is Dylan Shafer, owner of Dialectic Brewing Company here in Mandan, North Dakota. I'm your host, Connor Brekke. Let's all raise a glass to, The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:37

Welcome back everyone to another wonderful episode of The Ombibulous. I'm back at Dialectic Brewing with Mr. Dylan Shaffer. Thank you for joining me again.

Dylan Schafer 00:46

Absolutely.

Connor Brekke 00:47

And then we are going to touch up on an episode we previously did about Belgian ale. We're going to do a spin off on that about... Trappist beer. It's very interesting style beer. It's actually fortunate that the United States actually has a Trappist monastery that brews accredited Trappist beers, so we will be trying that style from Spencer Brewing out of Massachusetts today on the show. So let's let's get into it Trappist beer. In short, Trappist beer is basically just brewed by Trappist monks. I mean, that's that's the short story. Historically, it's been pretty much just for the monks and people who visit. Now it's kind of blown up into other things, but we'll get into that shortly. Currently, there are 14 monasteries, six in Belgium, two in the Netherlands, one each in Austria, Italy, England, France, Spain, and of course the US. And then we can currently produce accredited troposphere as per the international Trappists Association ITA.

Dylan Schafer 01:55

And us being us having one here in the US we are kind of an outlier because these Trappist monasteries and Trappist beers tend to be very regionally specific so having one in the northeast in the US is... we're kind of an outlier but it's a good thing we have it.

Connor Brekke 02:11

It is a very cool thing. I would figure that of all the places why not the US with such a massive beer scene and everything it's it's fairly new too.

Dylan Schafer 02:20

Beer scene and um... you know, a Catholic and religious scene as well. So it is rather fitting that we do have one.

Connor Brekke 02:28

So as of 2021, Arkell l was one of the Trappist breweries is no longer considered the Trappist brewery because there's no there's no more monks, they ran out of monks, the monks are gone! They're all gone.

Dylan Schafer 02:41

Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, I think... the last... there were like two monks that in 2021 or shortly before that had moved and relocated to a different monastery and therefore, they lose that accreditation.

Connor Brekke 02:57

So the history of Trappist beer it's... well, it's so it's Catholic Trappist Order. It originated in the Cistercian Monastery of La Trappe France, probably pronouncing it wrong, because they don't have a French accent. But...

Dylan Schafer 03:11

That's how I'd say it. So

Connor Brekke 03:13

Sounds it sounds about right. So various Cistercian congregations have existed for a while. By 1600s the Abbot of La Trappe felt that the Cistercians were becoming a little bit on the liberal side. So, He instituted a series of rules, the strict observance, but since then, it's kind of been relaxed. It's kind of gone by the wayside. I mean, these breweries, I guess you would call them brew houses or like little local brew hamlets or something have been around since the Middle Ages. It's, it's... it's been a thing, for a while. The Trappist Order spread from France to the rest of Europe around then. So they originally pretty much just brewed to feed themselves and the community. Nowadays, it's a whole different thing. It's it's going to charity, it's going for, you know, I got a bottle of it from Spencer. So it's it's more, I guess, you say capitalized right now. But yeah, that's kind of the brief history of it... in short.

Dylan Schafer 04:13

Well as you mentioned to, traditionally, this beer was brewed for consumption on the monastery. And a big part of that was during the month... during Lent, on Trappist monks would fast, so they were not allowed to consume any solid food during Lent. The way that they would supplement that solid food, get their calories and get their sustenance was through drinking the beer that they brewed. There's actually been a few people in the United States who did that exact experiments "hey, can I survive on no solid food" and you know, drinking water drinking beer and other non solid food options can I survive on that for the entire season of Lent? And it is very viable. So that was a huge aspect of them. Originally creating beer for monastery was it was a sustenance based thing. It was a good way to get their calories, their protein, their carbs. You could get all of that without consuming solid food during the fast season.

Connor Brekke 05:10

We all know nowadays, beers are pretty high in calories, but imagine what they were like back then. And when it was basically survival.

Dylan Schafer 05:17

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I mean, very unfiltered raw, higher alcohol, higher malt content beers.

Connor Brekke 05:25

And as with a lot of things in Europe, the 1900s was kind of rough time. Unfortunately, a lot of these monasteries and breweries were destroyed or rendered unusable during the world wars and they've been kind of making a comeback since then. So come about 1990 or so there was about eight Trappist Abbey's that founded the ITA, international Trappist Association, basically to prevent non trappists commercial entities from kind of taking advantage of the Trappist name you don't want like somebody "Oh, look, I know my cousin's brother's, aunt's, nephew's, uncle is a monk.... so I'm going to make a trapist beer.

Dylan Schafer 06:04

And that was the case for you know, for quite a few years up until 1997. And this association was founded. There were a bunch of brewers over in Europe releasing Trappist beers that had a good... Trappist beer in general has a good marketing point. And a lot of breweries were capitalizing on that marketing despite not really having any tie to Trappist beer at all.

Connor Brekke 06:31

And then we'll kind of touch on that a bit later in the episode with Abbey beer, but for now, we're just gonna kind of go through Trappist beer. So, Trappist beer has some categories that you have to follow as per the ITA. So one of them being the beer has to be brewed within a Trappist monastery, it's got to be either by the monks or under strict supervision of the monks. But either way, it has to be actually brewed within the walls of said monastery. The brewery can't be like the primary purpose of the monasteries there. You can't just build a monastery and fill it with a brewery and go from there. It's supposed to be a traditional monastery. It's a traditional monostatic way of life there you know, it can't be just like a front. And then the brewery is not supposed to be a profit making venture at all. The income's supposed to just cover the living expenses of the monks in the maintenance of the building and upkeep, grounds, what have you. Whatever's leftover needs to be donated to charity or social work or the community or you know, basically to help with the monastery or the community. And then as of 2021 I believe Belgium only has five Trappist beers left.

Dylan Schafer 07:46

Yeah, and there are some Trappist brewers out there that are largely following these traditions, but they don't necessarily have the accreditation, again, things change, maybe a bunch of the monks move. Maybe they lose their Abbott or things like that. So there are several Trappist brewers over in Europe that don't hold the Accreditation of the ITA because of some of these really strict stipulations that ita has.

Connor Brekke 08:14

So Trappist beer, as per the ITA has all these certain restrictions. But there is another style that's related to Trappist beer called Abbey beer. Doesn't necessarily follow these strict criteria and it's actually kind of more more accessible for brewers interested in this style. But, Dylan's got some information about that.

Dylan Schafer 08:36

Yeah, so um... kind of generally speaking Abbey beer is going to follow all of the same styles of a Trappist beer. However, it doesn't conform to some of these strict regulations like being brewed within the monastery itself. So Abbey beer largely became an... kind of an offshoot of Trappist beer. Again, Trappist beer, you'll see your various styles of beer, you'll see those same styles of beer in Abbey ales, but there may not be brewed within the monastery. And especially because I'm guessing a lot of our listeners are going to be United States bass listeners, the United States and Belgium and Europe do view Abbey beer very differently. So in Belgium, that Abbey beer does still have to have some tie to a monastery or a monk or an Abbot. It doesn't have to be a really concrete tie. But in Belgium, you do still have to have some tie to be marketing beer as an Abbey beer. However, in the United States, it's largely become a free for all. If you brew a beer that kind of follows the style guidelines, but none of the regulations, you can market it however you see fit. So I mean, honestly, if someone wanted to brew a pale ale here and call it an Abbey Ale, there's nothing stopping them from doing that. That being said, A lot of brewers in the United States who brew Abbey ales, Belgian doubles, things of that nature are following the traditional brewing practices and the traditional recipes and everything. Again, they just don't follow fall into all of the criteria of the the Trappist beer.

Connor Brekke 10:17

Right. It's kind of relied on mutual respect and the honor system.

Dylan Schafer 10:21

Yeah. And I mean, really, the whole idea was again to kind of prevent everyone out there under the sun from capitalizing on Trappist beer, because, as you mentioned, a big thing with Trappist beer is any money that didn't go to funding the monastery itself was donated to charity and stuff like that. People were willing to support that cause. However, if you can go out and just buy a beer, that's a Trappist beer, but it's really just going into Joe Schmoe's pocket as a profit, it's not really following those traditions of Trappist beer. So these Abbey... Abbey ales, Abbey beers came about to kind of mimic the styles without following all the guidelines. And it was a way for the Trappist monks to kind of protect their name. So there were several largely in the you know, 1960s through the 1990s... there were several lawsuits that resulted from people claiming to be brewing Trappist beer... that really wasn't Trappist beer, and that's where we started to see the creation of these Abbey beer start to pop up. In the United... even in the United States, typically when you see an Abbey beer, it does still largely follow some criteria. It's almost always going to be a top fermented or warm fermented ale beer using a Belgian, particular Belgian yeast strain, and falling within the style guidelines of kind of a, let's say three to four main styles that Trappist breweries brew.

Connor Brekke 11:47

So yeah, touching up on how the abbey beer is made. Let's go through some of the methods for how Trappist beer... it's... it's very similar to like the Belgian ale style since this is a spin off of Belgian ale. So we have top fermented we have different you know, systems and nomenclatures for the different beers they have enken single, dubbel, a double, the tripel, triple, quadrupel, lot of similarities, a lot of similar characteristics there.

Dylan Schafer 12:17

And these names so these, you know, the enkel, the dubbel, the tripel the quadrupel, they largely came... these names largely came about when Trappist brewers started serving beer to the public or selling beer to other folks that were not specifically on the monastery. And a lot of these names came out as basically, they were a warning label. So your traditional Abbey ale, you're you're single, your enkel, was your base kind of percentage beer. For the enkel, you're looking at anything that's you know, typically a sessionable beer. Again, for these monks during fast season, they still have all their daily tasks and everything that they need to do. So the enkel was typically below 5% alcohol, it was a session beer, it was something that they could drink, they could get their calories, but they could still go out and do their daily...

Connor Brekke 13:08

Function

Dylan Schafer 13:08

...tasks. Yeah. Then the double was basically, or the dubbel, was an amped up version of that. So you'll typically see those falling in the range from kind of six to 7% alcohol. And again, that name was a warning consumers that "hey, this is stronger than a typical Trappist beer." The triple, kind of same story, this one's even stronger, it's usually eight to 9% alcohol, and then all the way up to the quadruple again, this one really packs the punch and is usually going to be 10% alcohol and higher. I've personally seen them as high as 14, 15 16% even. So those names largely came about as kind of a warning label to the consumer that hey, this isn't your everyday beer, it's gonna pack a little bit more of a punch.

Connor Brekke 13:54

You know, sometimes the monks just needed a little extra kick.

Dylan Schafer 13:58

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 13:59

I don't blame them at all.

Dylan Schafer 14:01

So, going along with kind of their... the names that they chose the dubbel, the trippel, the quadruple, these also did have kind of specific guidelines for what type of beer was going to be. So normally you'd see a single or the enkel was going to be a more, you know, light, easy drinking beer. The dubbel switch things up and became a little bit more of a darker, maltier beer. You can think of it as kind of a high gravity amber ale or a high gravity brown ale, the triple kind of flipped things around and those are going to traditionally always be again, a light beer. So in the darker beers, a lot of the times they would use kind of a dark Belgian candy sugar to bring that out that dark rich color and flavor. They frequently used that in the dubbel. Switching over to the trippel, they would use a lighter Belgian candy sugar and keep the beer still a little bit lighter in color. Kind of an golden hue, a little higher on the hop character, and again, higher alcohol and then back to the quadruple was typically going to be going back to those dark Belgian candy sugars and a darker, heavier fuller bodied beer. So we kind of see a flip flop between dark ales, light ales and your gradiation of how strong it is how high the original gravity is, and in turn, how high its overall alcohol percentage will be

Connor Brekke 15:28

In touching up on strength... the current ale I have right now with me from Spencer is a six and a half percent. The bottle is kind of you know, it's a dark bottle. So I'm not entirely sure what it looks like, but we'll be tasting that shortly here. So, check out our Facebook page, The Ombibulous Podcast for another video/photo segment there.

Connor Brekke 15:49

So I'd like to actually talk about this place real quick, Spencer Monastery Trappist Ale. A little brief history on it uh... St. Joseph's Abbey of Massachusetts. It was founded in about 1950 or so on the former site of Alta Crest Farms under the leadership of Dom Edmund Futterer. Hopefully I said that name right. Basically, the monks moved there from previous location in Rhode Island, which was damaged by a fire the same year rough, roughly around the same time. So Father, Thomas Keating, was elected Abbot of the alley in 1961. Then jump ahead to 2010 St. Joseph's Abbey explored the possibility of making beer that was kind of like one of those things like "hey, other places do it. So we should try it too." Basically they sent people throughout these different monasteries, accredited monasteries, kind of like the... a beer mission, if you will, and including not just them, but like Belgian beer fests like there's the one Boston there's different breweries in Europe, basically to figure out how do we do this traditionally, how do we do this properly? And how can we make it work? So all these different people went out and got all this information and basically, the recommendations came in it was basically get a brewing engineer, somebody skilled, build a modern state of the art facility, and then only brew one type of beer for the first five years, brew it for it, well learn, and then you can go from there. So basically, they made like 20 ish test batches or so then they finally chose the final recipe. And the first beer made was a blonde six and a half percent called Spencer Trappist Ale. And I think that's what we're drinking right now. It just says, just as Spencer Trappist Ale on it. So I'm going to go ahead and say that's probably what we're going to be drinking. So yeah, it was as of 2016... so fairly recent, it's the first and only certified Trappist brewery in the US. The complex the brewery, part of it is about 3600 square feet, or 36,000, excuse me, square feet and a 50 barrel capacity. It's open house was August 6 of 2016, to about 2500 visitors or so. And then as of 2018, the brewery is considering exploring, you know, a tap room and something open year round to kind of introduce people to the culture and history of this new style of beer that's popping up.

Dylan Schafer 18:24

Yeah, and the Spencer is a really interesting one. They're relatively new to the game when it comes to Trappist brewing the fact that they were really starting to brew beer. What was it 20... did they put out their first one? 2015 ish 2016 I think right in that range? And needless to say, it wasn't that long ago that Spencer put out their first beer, so they are fairly new to the game in comparison to other Trappist breweries. However, they follow the Trappist tradition of doing it right.

Connor Brekke 18:55

Yes.

Dylan Schafer 18:56

They wanted to pick one style and make sure they could do that style perfectly before they had ventured on to anything else. So they did their research. They brewed like you said 20 some batches before they were like "this recipe is where it needs to be. Now we can actually produce it." So again, credit where credit is due, the Trappist monks, they know how to make beer and they know how to do it right. When they do... when they do things. They are dedicated to what they do. And, I'm very excited to try this beer which is their flagship beer, and I'm sure it will not disappoint.

Connor Brekke 19:30

Yeah, just to tell you guys how new this places I've got the list of them. Paul, the ones from Belgium 1836, 1838, 1863, 1899, 1931. And the one that's not accredited anymore because they ran out of marks, 1850. I look at the US it says 2013. Netherlands 2013, Italy 2015, England 2018, there's a French 1826, and Austria 2012, and then a Netherlands one 1884.

Dylan Schafer 20:05

And keeping in mind that these, you know, obviously we see a trend the French and the Belgium ones are very early on in history because that is where a lot of this started and largely why the Trappist beers are an offshoot of Belgian beers.

Connor Brekke 20:19

Yes, there's a lot of cultural mingling there. French and Belgian are kind of... they have a history together.

Dylan Schafer 20:26

Absolutely. And I mean, drawing back to our Belgian episode and relating to this episode a little bit. I mean, we're talking about a brewing history of it existed long before these were like, necessarily independent countries. I mean, I don't think Belgium gained, they didn't become an independent country until like 1830, if I'm not mistaken? So the brewing history in this region predates borders and predates the foundation of some of these countries. But again, we're really focusing on a style of brewing more so than just a particular country drawn out by really delineated lines, you know.

Connor Brekke 21:04

Because since the dawn of man, we've created a liquid and then fermented it and drink it. You know, that's beer. It's just evolved constantly throughout the ages. And this is no different. It's just a really unique style. I think how it came to be.

Dylan Schafer 21:19

Oh, absolutely.

Connor Brekke 21:21

And then with that, we're going to take a short break and try some of this Trappist beer, so stay tuned.

Connor Brekke 21:42

Alright guys, we are back from a little break... got ourselves some Spencer Trappist ale. This stuff is really, it's really pretty kind of a slightly hazy nice caramel color.

Dylan Schafer 21:53

And that being said, a lot of the Belgian beers, Trappist beers, Abbey beers that you come across, a lot of that is going to be an unfiltered beer, you'll see a pretty substantial amount of haze in it, traditionally speaking, and it does just that gorgeous kind of orangish hay colored, yeah just just a beautiful beer.

Connor Brekke 22:13

Oh, man, that smells really good too.

Dylan Schafer 22:16

Yeah, you instantly get right on the aroma you instantly get the phenolic so that Belgian yeast in there, for sure. Almost a little light like an orange peel lemon peel kind of bites.

Connor Brekke 22:28

It's like a marmalade or something.

Dylan Schafer 22:30

Yeah, yeah, definitely like kind of like an orange marmalade aroma to it. And just a... I mean, a really nice, consistent cream colored head on it. I'm a big fan... I believe that the head on a beer is a huge part of the experience of drinking a beer and it presents beautifully.

Dylan Schafer 22:49

It's consistant.

Connor Brekke 22:49

I've never had this before. This is a first for me. Oh, wow, that's, that's good.

Dylan Schafer 22:55

Oh, it's so interesting too, because I get a lot of the, the phenolics on the aroma. And then those... the esters really come through on the flavor profile of it. So for the listeners who don't know what I'm referring to the phenolics are going to be a little bit more of the kind of herbal and spicy characteristics that you get from the yeast. And then the esters, just another compound given off by yeast is going to be a little bit more of the kind of fruity character that you get. And this you just get the esters right on the nose and that fades beautifully over into those nice fruity Belgian yeast esters in there.

Connor Brekke 23:33

And esters are actually... there is no, usually, no fruit involved. It's just whatever the yeast does, it makes a compound and it gives you kind of fruit like notes to it. There's... there's no actual fruit.

Dylan Schafer 23:47

Yep. 100% and it's kind of the same idea as when you drink like a hefeweisen or something.

Connor Brekke 23:52

The banana.

Dylan Schafer 23:54

Yep, hefeweisens aren't brewed with bananas. It's just the Ester from the yeast production gives it that character and yeah, this one is just beautifully...

Connor Brekke 24:03

I get that a lot there's definitely this... yeah, the orange-ish yeast to it.

Dylan Schafer 24:09

Yeah, a lot. A lot of orange yeast ester going on in there. And really well balanced. It has, it has bitterness, it has noticeable bitterness.

Connor Brekke 24:19

Yes.

Dylan Schafer 24:19

However, it's not like drinking an IPA bitterness. It's just enough that you know, it's there.

Connor Brekke 24:25

It's smooth. It's really smooth. Like when you look at a beer like this, and then you see that haziness you kind of... well, I do, I think that IPA and I think to bitter and I think to.... this isn't the case. It's it's got kind of a spice kick.

Dylan Schafer 24:38

Yep.

Connor Brekke 24:39

And then it smooths out really well. And then you get with that Ester-y the nose on it.

Dylan Schafer 24:45

And it finishes those esters, those kind of orangey flavored orange marmalade flavored esters, give it a little bit of a sweet midpoint to it. And then it just finishes off nice and crisp and dry. It's not overly sweet, it's not coing at all, you just get a little bit of that orange sweetness in the middle, and then a nice, dry, crisp finish on it.

Connor Brekke 25:08

I think I may have to order some more of this stuff.

Dylan Schafer 25:11

I can, I can see, I can recognize that it took them quite a few batches before they pinpoint where this was. And they finally said, "Hey, this is perfect. This is what we want to release."

Connor Brekke 25:22

Yeah.

Dylan Schafer 25:22

Because it is very, very well done. I think the alcohol content, it has a, it's a very, very sweet spot. It's not necessarily a session beer that you're going to sit down and drink 10 or 15 of, it's something you can sit down, it has a lot of character, you can appreciate the character it has, it's also not 10% and gonna ruin your day.

Connor Brekke 25:45

It's in that middle ground. It's it's six and a half. So it's more than a session but not quite like a heavy hitter.

Dylan Schafer 25:52

And you know, and just my personal opinion, in my personal taste, I really consider that anywhere between six and 7%, in my mind is really the sweet spot for beer. You know, it's got some alcohol character to it, but it's not overpowering.

Connor Brekke 26:08

And then we do have some more, we got Pilsner, we got the wit, and then we have another darker ale. But we'll be doing a segment on those little later on. I'm really excited to try the other ones.

Dylan Schafer 26:20

And I am kind of curious, I'm going to see if I can pinpoint based on the bottle here. Yeah, it does appear to be a bottle conditioned beer. So carbonation being done in the bottle itself on the beer goes into the bottle, it still has some live yeast in there, and a little bit of residual sugar. That yeast eats up that sugar and gives it its own natural carbonation. And I was guessing it had that nice bottle conditioned carbonation character just from drinking it. And you can see on the bottom of the bottle that it does have just the faintest little bit of residual yeast hanging out on the bottom down there. And for those of you who haven't had a bottle conditioned beer, I highly recommend seeking one out because it is a very different mouthfeel and carbonation than a forced carbonated beer on just CO2 gas. It's it's smoother...

Connor Brekke 27:12

Yeah.

Dylan Schafer 27:12

...it's still crisp, but it's just so much smoother and, and...

Connor Brekke 27:16

It's a noticeable difference.

Dylan Schafer 27:19

Absolutly.

Connor Brekke 27:19

It's just... I don't want to say it packs a punch. But there's something there that you taste. And it's like, it'd be kind of like the difference between a flat beer and a carbonated beer. It's... it's just there's just that subtle difference there that forces that flavor and all that extra aroma into you. And it's... yeah, this is really good.

Dylan Schafer 27:38

And it maintained. So well, I found that a lot of the bottle conditioned beer I've had, it just maintains its head and maintains its carbonation. So well a little bit of agitation, and it's just got that nice, perfect white foam sitting on top again.

Connor Brekke 27:53

I don't think the camera is going to be able to pick this up. But...

Dylan Schafer 27:56

Yeah, that's it, you really need like the perfect light. But you can see just that little bit of residual yeast in there. And anytime I see that in a bottle, that's a good sign to me, I know that it's going to be a bottle conditioned beer with that really, you know, a little bit heavier, creamier carbonation to it. And especially corked up with a champagne cork really keeps everything inside and the way it should be.

Connor Brekke 28:20

Just when you pour it....

Dylan Schafer 28:22

Yes.

Connor Brekke 28:22

... you can kind of see that it's not quite mixed up, or there's like that little subtle carry over almost.

Dylan Schafer 28:29

Yep. And again, it's, just that beautiful head on there. Yeah, and you can almost see, I'm not sure if the camera will be able to tell.... but obviously you kind of got the last pour the beer, and it does, you know darken up just a little bit as you start to pick up a little bit more of that yeast from from the bottom of the bottle. And for those of you looking to go out and try a bottle condition beer, don't be afraid of that little bit of yeast dregs hanging out in the bottom of there. A lot of the times when I drink a bottle conditioned beer before I give the last pour, I'll just give the bottle a little bit of a swirl and agitate that yeast up into suspension. And it really contributes a nice pleasing profile to the beer when you drink it.

Connor Brekke 29:12

Yes, definitely don't look at the beer and say, oh, there's stuff at the bottom. That's gross. No, no, no, no, no, that's that's, that's good that it's there. Yeah, it helps with this.

Dylan Schafer 29:21

Yeah, on a bottle conditioned beer. You want that there, it's awesome.

Connor Brekke 29:25

But I want a candle of this. Like, honestly, I would have a like a Beanpod candle of this, I think.

Dylan Schafer 29:30

Yeah, I think one of the most amazing things to me on this beer is that the aroma and flavor profile are so different. You know, they're coming from the same thing.

Connor Brekke 29:41

Mmhmmm

Dylan Schafer 29:41

But you just get two... it's like you're drinking two different beers, the one you get on the nose on the bouquet, and then the one that hits your palate. And that's, that's the subtlety and the nuance that I was talking about earlier that it is just... I love finding that in a beer. It's nothing that's overpowering that's punching you in the face. It's Just, it's subtle, but there's a lot going on, there's a lot of character, there's a lot to look for.

Connor Brekke 30:05

And you know, that's why I enjoy doing this show. Because beer is so much more than just something you take out of the fridge while watching a movie. There's, there's so many beautiful artistic things about beer. You get all the different styles and all the different methods and then the history and interesting shoot offs like this with monks making beer. It's like... there's a massive world out there. And you can take a moment, sit back and learn a bit about it and try some different things. Learn about it, then you learn how to taste and you learn how to look and you learn how to experience it's, it's such a wonderful thing,

Dylan Schafer 30:43

You know, and in my opinion, one of the best ways to experience the big beautiful world that we live in, is drinking it.

Connor Brekke 30:51

Well with that, that's a good, good point to end on. So we'll continue drinking our beers and you guys continue listening please and trying new things expanding your horizons, visiting breweries going to your liquor store, wherever. Find something, different, looks different? Give it a shot, you're only out a few bucks. So until next time, cheers. Cheers.

Connor Brekke 31:16

The Ombibulous is made possible with Castos giving creators the tools to connect with their audience and community. The music is courteous of Pond5. With over 25 million royalty free stock videos, music, photos and sound effects, there's something for every creator. I would like to thank Dylan Schafer for the use of his facility and time to create this episode. Today's content was recorded here at Dialectic Brewing Company in Mandan, North Dakota. For latest updates, videos, photos and web links to our guests. Please consider checking out our Facebook page, the ambulance podcast, and of course a big thank you to all our listeners. Thank you for all of your support. Until next time, cheers.

View Details

On this episode, we swing on over to Fargo and talk with Susan Ruud of Prairie Rose Meadery about mead. Be seure to check out our Facebook page for the latest photos and updates. Facebook@theombibulouspodcast

Cheers!

Mead

SPEAKERS

Susan Ruud, Connor Brekke

Connor Brekke 00:03

Hello everyone and welcome back to The Ombibulous, a show where we discuss a variety of topics about alcohol. From beer styles, the brewing process distillation, in spirits, even liquor laws, there's a fascinating world to discover. On today's episode, we learn a bit about the ancient beverage of mead. Joining me today is Susan Ruud of Fargo, North Dakota's very own, Prairie Rose Meadery. I'm your host, Connor brekkie. Let's all raise a glass to The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:38

Welcome back to the showroom, buddy. Today I'm joined by Susan Ruud of Prairie Rose Meadery here in Fargo, North Dakota. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me over.

Susan Ruud 00:48

I'm excited to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Connor Brekke 00:52

And then we're going to talk about one of our... well, my kind of weaknesses here... mead. I love it. It's a... it's a really great beverage. Got a lot of history to it. And yeah, let's have at it. What is mead for the audience?

Susan Ruud 01:07

Well, in its basic sense, mead is fermented honey. So that base of everything is honey. People will call it a honey wine, but where wine is made from grapes or other fruits. Mead is the majority of the fermentable, honey, and then you'll add some other fruit or spice to change it up or fruit and spice or you can do so many things with it.

Connor Brekke 01:26

Yes. And you guys have quite a few different flavors on the menu. But we'll touch on that a bit later here. So it's an old beverage. It's been around for a while.

Susan Ruud 01:36

Yeah, there's probably history of it about a little over 9000 years ago in the pyramids. And then there's conjectural and history of it about 40,000 years ago in Africa. So yeah, very old.

Connor Brekke 01:50

Because we're just looking at some pictures. And there's pottery that dates back from at least 7000 bc in China. So kind of like the proto-mead. I mean, it's a bit different back then. But

Susan Ruud 02:01

hey, well, originally they would have made it probably I mean, they're using natural yeasts. And so might have been a little more sour than ours, it would have been, it would have taken local fruits and spices and stuff and thrown it all into a container along with whatever honey they could find. They would have done that probably Initially, it was originally found by a beehive getting what else tree splitting open or water getting in somehow. And they came along and Oh, hey, let's try this. And oh, that tastes good.

Connor Brekke 02:36

Everybody loves alcohol, that hasn't changed. It's funny how that works. Because Same thing with all alcoholic beverages is all of a sudden something happens, some liquid fruit juice or something is left out, then it just gets fermented. And then some brave soul comes by and takes us out of it. But you know, that's, that's where we are now at. So we got what we got?

Susan Ruud 03:00

Yeah, the Vikings would have drank mead before battle and going into battle after battle. It was the drink of the gods. So they would have went to that they were going to haven't drink Mead. There's quite a bit of history there. And then you go past a Oh, you go Vikings would have had it. The English culture had it. It was the drink of the kings and the Lord and the clergy. They would have also been the monks. So there's there's a lot of there's a lot of history there that is probably more well known. But you go to almost any country in the world and you will find some information about honey drinks, all down through the ages.

Connor Brekke 03:46

Right? I have an interesting thing here about indie Tex the meat or Soma, right around the well 1700 BCE ish and then again back to the Norse mythology capacitor, kind of a godlike being who basically had made pottery created from his blood. So you know, you're drinking, something like that. It's like me, it's pretty important. It was the preferred beverage in the golden age of Greek civilization as well. And then, the epic poem that I think most people remember that movie from 10 years ago, Beowulf, it was featured in that in the original English epic home, not so much in the movie. So we've gone through a bit of a history of Mead, little folklore, but now we're going to get into how it's produced. So it's fermented honey and water, essentially, how similar to making beer is it?

Susan Ruud 04:40

um, other than the fact that you have beverage or the liquid that you add east to not quite too much like Beer Beer, you have to heat the grains to a certain temperature to make the enzymes work with honey, you just dilute the honey. You don't even need to heat it. The app, you just walk, you want to make sure your honey is in a liquid stage. So it'll mix in well with your water. But this can do probably at 90 degrees and it'll it'll mix well reduce mix your honey and your water and you throw in a little bit of nutrient to feed the yeast. Throw your yeast in and let it ferment that that's pretty much basic. Whereas beer, you will keep your grains to 100. And meow. If you want to protein rice, do you want to mash? You want that 150 to get all of the start or the enzymes, starches turned into sugars? And then you've got a mash out. And yeah, there's a lot of time, a lot more time and energy goes into making beer and it ferments quickly beer does. Yeast takes a little bit longer, probably several weeks to ferment out or is beers done in five days?

Connor Brekke 05:53

So with the fermentation process, you need to use a yeast of some sort. Yes. Are there different specific mead yeast or do you use like wine yeasts? Or what

Susan Ruud 06:04

I there are some specific mediators I actually do use a wine yeast. I just like that better. There are several one use out there that are recommended

Connor Brekke 06:15

just depends on which field like me. Yeah,

Susan Ruud 06:17

well, and it depends on your system. There's someone needs that are better for hot hot for hotter fermentations. So they don't, they won't put off as much of the higher alcohols. Whereas our system here we use a cooler fermentation. It's just the yeast I've been used to for many years.

Connor Brekke 06:34

And then to determine you know how potent your drink is, that's usually measured with specific gravity, yeah, or bricks. What is racking a product

Susan Ruud 06:44

racking a product just means that you're going from one tank into another tank or one container into another container. Usually, you'll finish most of your fermentation, you will rack it or transfer it into another container to let the yeast that settled in the bottom stay and it just helps clear it faster

Connor Brekke 07:05

is cloudy mead necessarily a bad thing.

Susan Ruud 07:08

Um, not necessarily for presentation. Many people prefer it crystal clear. Sometimes you start out with it crystal clear and then just especially your fruit ones, I've had a little bit of an issue with a few of them, not all of them most of mine steak crystal clear. I do filter everything down to point four or five microns, but that does still leave a little bit of pectin in there. And sometimes that'll settle out. So if if you got one of my means with a little bit of cloudiness in it, it's probably a pectin haze, which doesn't really change the flavor it just doesn't look quite as bright and exciting. But in today's new world, you go from your beers that used to have to be crystal clear also to excessively hazy beers that actually have almost a thick mouthfeel from the east and and he is and um so I don't think it's a bad thing.

Connor Brekke 08:05

Just depends on what you want to make. Yep. And then how long does the fermentation process take?

Susan Ruud 08:10

Um, my what my on mine I know some of the meat makers are getting them done in 10 days but I think they have better equipment than I do. centrifuge to clarify or to clear them faster. But about four weeks I can have my traditional meat made a little over a lot of them with the fruit and take me about 10 to 12 weeks but it just varies when that when it's done. It's done.

Connor Brekke 08:37

Do you age meat at all?

Susan Ruud 08:39

Um, I haven't aged mine I've when I used to homebrew I always had I mean it took six months to a year so they were aged before we do have some in here in oak barrels that were aging a little bit. So those will be aged. But otherwise no as soon as I said within four to 12 weeks ours are bottled and ready for sale.

Connor Brekke 09:02

But no mead like anything is different varieties are there any like a traditional meat that's like your baseline meat. Are there any varieties that you enjoy more

Susan Ruud 09:14

traditional mead is just honey but if you've had one traditional means you haven't had all traditional means because every single honey will give you a different you know like clover honey is different from Orange Blossom honey is different from Ethiopian honey are every one every honey every flower floral source is totally different and will give you a totally different flavor. And they're all very good. I think they're just going to be different. Then from there you're going to have you can have dry medium or sweet so the same even same clover honey made their ill might be fermented dry, it might be fermented, semi sweet or it might be fermented, very sweet. That makes it a totally different flavor. Then you have your melon Mills which are fruit means you have your method blends with jar spice means you have an all of those can be, you know how many million fruits are around a million, but very, very many fruits, very many spices. And then you can combine each of those fruits with different spices. So you have a fruit and spice mean, there's such a huge variety of possibilities with me that I really couldn't find one. That's just my favorite. I like them all.

Connor Brekke 10:31

And from what I've had, I'd like them all to Yeah, it was kind of a tricky way to ask that question because I'm so used to like the beer world because I know that like you said it depends on the bead depends on the flower depends on the fruit. It depends on the yeast, there's so many factors in there on what kind of meat is, um, wine in the wine world, there's such thing as an ice wine. Is there kind of a similar thing with meat? Can you get that when you freeze meat?

Susan Ruud 10:58

You can I've done that. Not not at as a professional but at home, I froze, I froze some meats and concentrated them they do get much more like a look or it's kind of fun to try that lead, you got to get them very, very cold. So you had to do that. Because me it is, you know, a little bit higher alcohol. So you've got to do it more. Like when it's 20 below outside, which usually isn't a problem. Yeah, you got a couple of weeks and January early February

Connor Brekke 11:32

graduate when you can freezer right? Oh,

Susan Ruud 11:34

yeah. So, but you can also ferment using particular yeasts, you can ferment up to 20 25% alcohol just by feeding your yeast properly. Also also

Connor Brekke 11:51

known as far as serving and enjoying Mead, are there special types of glassware that you need to use or anything for people who've never had Mead, how to approach it.

Susan Ruud 12:01

I do personally prefer to drink first out of glass. I hate drinking out of any plastic or any of that stuff. But that's a personal preference. But I do prefer them more out of bellowed I guess, or wine type glass that comes in at the top because your aromas come out nicer. There isn't at the moment yet one world is working or the mead world is working on it having a specific need the glass, okay, then there's so many different means you're going with so many different means it's hard to pick one glass that works absolutely perfect for all of them. So

Connor Brekke 12:40

in the wine world, yeah, there's like a million different types of glass, right? They matter

Susan Ruud 12:44

white wine glass, and then even in the white wine world, you get a Chardonnay glass and you get a Sauvignon Blanc glass. And yeah, so I you know, eventually I think we will have more glasses that are more mead specific or at least type specific of meat.

Connor Brekke 13:01

Because even though it's meat, it still has as many characteristics and flavors and all kinds of different nuances to it just like wine, it's

Susan Ruud 13:10

more so than wine. I'm fairly certain there's way more meat varieties compared to than wine varieties.

Connor Brekke 13:19

Well, that's why we do this show. So I can help people understand and explore different types of things, where we learned a little bit of history about me today kind of a general overview. So once again, I'd like to thank you Susan for coming on the show. It was always fun to have a new guest and a new expertise. So stay tuned because we'll be having another episode on where you can try some North Dakota Mead. So until next time, cheers. Cheers.

Connor Brekke 13:49

The Ombibulous is made possible with Castos, giving creators the tools to connect with their audience and community. The music is courteous of Pond5. With over 25 million royalty free stock videos, music, photos and sound effects, there's something for every creator. Today's episode was recorded at Prairie Rose Meadery here in Fargo, North Dakota. I'd like to thank Susan for her time and the use of this facility to make this episode possible. For the latest updates, videos, photos and web links to our guests, please consider checking out our Facebook page, The Ombibulous Podcast. And of course a big thank you to all our listeners. Thank you for all of your support. Until next time, cheers

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On this episode, we talk about Belgian beer styles. Be sure to check out our Facebook page, Facebook@theombibulouspodcast for the accompanying photos. You can also head over to https://youtu.be/-9c4UN_yB74 to check out our first tasting video too. Cheers!

Belgian Beer

SPEAKERS

Connor Brekke, Dylan Schafer

Connor Brekke 00:05

Hello everyone and welcome back to The Ombibulous, a show where we discuss a variety of topics about alcohol. From beer styles, the brewing process, distillation in spirits and even liquor laws there's a fascinating world to discover. On today's episode, we have an overview of Belgian style beers. Joining me today is Dylan Schafer, owner of Dialectic Brewing Company here in Mandan, North Dakota. I'm your host, Connor Brekke. Let's all raise a glass to, The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:39

Welcome back to the show everybody. I'm back at Dialectic and joining me is Dylan. And we are going to go through some... kind of a broad topic actually, it's... we're going through Belgian beer styles. It's a very diverse topic, but we're going to kind of give you a rundown. That way we can branch off into future episodes. Welcome back, Dylan. Always good to see you.

Dylan Schafer 01:00

Yeah, thanks again for having me.

Connor Brekke 01:01

Well, it's... I guess you're having me since...

Dylan Schafer 01:03

Oh, yeah, I suppose.

Connor Brekke 01:06

So today, we actually have kind of a different episode as we have some visuals. So we're going to do some video with our Facebook page. And we're going to do some photos. So be sure you check out The Ombibulous Podcast at Facebook so you don't miss out on any of that. But, let's, let's kick it off. Belgian ales. Right, let's kind of just briefly run down what exactly's out there. There's some familiar ones like Stella... I think most people are familiar with Stella.

Dylan Schafer 01:35

Yeah, absolutely.

Connor Brekke 01:36

And then beyond that, it's...

Dylan Schafer 01:38

And it's it's funny that you mentioned Belgian ales, because I was going to point out that a lot of the Belgian beer styles that we do see, are going to be ales. I think I mentioned in a previous episode that we can kind of... here in the US especially and in a lot of Europe, we generally break down beer into two categories based on the type of fermentation. So ales are going to be anything that is a top fermenting or warm fermenting yeast and then lagers are going to be anything that's cool fermented or bottom fermenting yeast. And a lot of the Belgian beer styles that we see do fall into that ale category. So any of your stuff like your... I will even your Belgian saisons, your doubbels, your trippels, all that stuff is going to kind of fall into the Belgian ale category. However, they do have some loggers in the mix too. Things like your bocks and, and they even do some pillsners and, and some of those other really classic lagered styles as well. Historically speaking, though, we do see a lot of these styles fall under the ale category for sure.

Connor Brekke 02:45

And now as far as you know... it's a broad spectrum of different things to drink. You know, like any other style of beer, there's darks, there's lights, there's sours. These can be broken into like... like, you said, there's bocks, there's pilsners, amber, doubble, trippel, Lambic, Flemish, oud bruin, you know, just all kinds of different styles. But we're just going to kind of go through an overview in a sense. I actually brought with me a Pauwel Kwak, that is what we'll be tasting later. More on that to come. But... so Belgian, Belgian nails have been around for a while. I mean, if you want to argue how long beers been around, we won't go there, but we'll just kind of start with like the Roman-ish era... so like brewing and malt housing dating back from the third and fourth centuries. You know, they're... they've been around for a while they're early in high Middle Ages. From my knowledge, they're produced with a thing called gruit.

Dylan Schafer 03:40

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 03:40

A mix of herbs and spices.

Dylan Schafer 03:43

And you can still see today, you can still see some brews produced... beers produced that way on both Belgian beers, as well as some American brewing companies that are taking advantage of that gruit it. But like you said, that was just basically a blend of different herbs and spices. And the whole idea was, when you brew beer with malt, that malt is going to give it a sweet character. And they needed something to balance out that sweetness to give it a little bit of bitterness. And that's where that gruit came in. Where's today... more now today, we definitely see hops. If I'm not mistaken, it was probably... I don't know... 14th, 15th century somewhere in there when they started switching over to hops over in Belgium and Europe and stuff.

Connor Brekke 04:25

So I was just gonna say gruit is kind of like the proto-hops sort of wasn't it? They didn't use hops, but it was kind of getting in that... toward.... more towards the happiness.

Dylan Schafer 04:33

Yeah, that kind of, you know, slightly acidic, bitter character that you'd get some... from some of those traditional herbs. And like I said, there are still breweries doing it, a lot of you know, you'll see like dandelion root and caraway and all these different things, used it... to give beer, that bitterness, that distinctive bitterness.

Connor Brekke 04:52

So after you... after the 14th century, we kind of have that replacement with hops and then some Belgian town started to develope their own types of beer for export. Notably, what I know is the... sorry if I mispronounce, all these, the beer of Leuven and Hoegaarden. You know, I don't really know a lot about those. But I also know that a monasteries also had kind of a role in beer production. We'll kind of do a spin off series into Trappist Monk beer, but they mostly brewed for their guests and themselves.

Dylan Schafer 05:26

Absolutely. And, you know, kind of historically speaking, like you mentioned, a lot of these communities around Belgium started to develop their own brewing scene. And we can see that all over Europe to where you didn't have as many, you know, large scale production facilities early on. A lot of these ones were a little community based. But basically little brew pubs that produced for that community and really that community alone. And then it was a little bit later on in history that we started seeing the development of the bigger facilities that were capable to kind of export things to other regions and stuff.

Connor Brekke 06:01

So going back to monastery brewing, you know, that trap is beer now is kind of a... I don't want to say it's like, hugely popular, but because we have one in the US, it's definitely becoming more and more of a thing. I actually listened to NPR show about it, but realistically, it hasn't really been a thing for all that long. It kind of started in the 19th century. And from, from then on, it was again, it was pretty much just community or mainly just for the monks.

Dylan Schafer 06:30

And especially with the monks, you know, a lot of these, you know, touching on the Trappist monks a little... beer served as this... you know, a sustenance purpose. And I'm sure we can dive into that a little bit deeper when we talk specifically about some Trappist beers and stuff. But it was absolutely mostly for consumption on site at the monastery. It wasn't to be sold or produced for others really.

Connor Brekke 06:52

So then comes some law changes about in the late 1800s. Basically, legislation made ah, brewing of German style bottom fermented beers viable in Belgium. And that's kind of when the large scale brewing happened. Coming into the 20th century, brewers in Belgium kind of declined. There used to be a little over 3000, in 1900, all the way down to 106, in 1993. And there's a lot of reasons because of that. We had all the... two world wars, and conflict and, depression, and each country kind of went through their own version of prohibition.

Dylan Schafer 07:29

And you know, a lot of these smaller breweries that were existing kind of before the 19th and 20th century and 21st century, even, a lot of these smaller breweries were again, kind of community based brewers. And for one, big beer really did start to take over< the big conglomerates< could produce much more beer and make a lot more money than the smaller guys. And on top of that, like you were saying, worldwide conflict really decimated some of the infrastructure necessary for that brewing. But we did see, and you were mentioning, when we had some law changes that allowed for some German styles, bottom fermented German styles. That's where we really started to see Belgian ales transition from being just exclusively ale brewed beer or warm fermented beer over to that cool fermented, bottom fermented beer.

Connor Brekke 08:17

And then not every single style was lost. A few notable styles did... that did survive were the wit beers, so your white beer, lambic, which is a personal favorite of mine, Flemish, old brown... a couple that managed to get through and of course, you know, people are rediscovering recipes and more stuff's coming out slowly but surely so...

Dylan Schafer 08:39

Oh, absolutely. And those Flemish beers, particularly the Flanders Red Ale, and that oud Bruin or old brown. Those are some that have have had some really good staying power. And even here in the United States, there's people producing some really, really good examples of those beer. Some of my all time favorite sours are from that Flemish region either being oud bruins, or a little bit of a mix of styles of kind of oud bruin and Flanders Red. Makes me think of, you know, Love Child from Boulevard and any of that kind of Lips of Faith series... that a lot of those guys are doing some of those traditional Belgian sour styles.

Connor Brekke 09:20

And then with the local stuff we have, of course, as I mentioned earlier, Artois, Stella Artois. So in about the late 80s, 1980s Belgium's two biggest brewing companies Artois and, probably going to mispronounce the name again, but... Piedboeuf merged to basically become Interbrew. So now it's the 18th largest Brewer in the world. And then that's where a lot of... they have quite a big, quite a few names underneath their house. So Interbrew then merged with AmBev in 2004. And now, today, it's the biggest beer producing company in the world. So even more things under its roof.

Dylan Schafer 09:58

Oh yeah. All I mean, all of those now fall under AB InBev these days. And I mean, it's... Anheuser Busch products... so a vast majority of the beer produced in the United States even falls under that umbrella company, as well as a good majority of European beers fall under that umbrella as well.

Dylan Schafer 10:16

So generally speaking, I mentioned earlier that you know, here, especially in the US and in parts of Europe, we largely categorize beer into either lagers or ales. Again, just based on their fermentation. Um... Belgium takes a little bit of a unique approach to this. They actually kind of have four categories based on fermentation. So they have your basic, you know, warm fermented beer or top fermented beer, which is going to be your ales. They also have your cool fermented or bottom fermented beer, which is going to be your lagers, pilsners, bocks, things like that. And then they do also have kind of two other categories that are very unique to Belgium for the most part.

Dylan Schafer 10:56

And those are going to be spontaneous fermentation. And basically, spontaneous fermentation is referencing the fact that the brewer is not adding any yeast to the product. They're doing the barley, the hops or whatever ingredients they're brewing with. And then they're just taking advantage of open air fermentation and letting whatever wild yeast happens to live in that particular region, inoculate the beer and ferment it out. So it's a very... somewhat unpredictable way of fermenting beer. But a lot of these regions in Belgium and France and stuff had very specific yeast strains that lived in those areas. And so they gave the beer it's, you know, iconic flavor characteristics from that spontaneous fermentation.

Dylan Schafer 11:37

And then, the fourth category that the Belgium... that the Belgians kind of really take advantage of is mixed fermentation. Historically speaking, mixed fermentation is going to largely be kind of a subset of spontaneous fermentation, where the brewer isn't introducing yeast into the wort. He's just getting it out of the air, open fermentation. However, in a mixed fermentation environment, we're going to see not just wild yeast introduced into the beer, but wild yeast as well as also some wild bacterias. Primarily things like brettanomyces is one of our wild yeasts that's really common. And then we'll also see some wild bacteria like lactobacillus, pediococcus. And those are the bacteria that are going to be responsible for giving beer, a sour beer, its sour character. So you're things like your lambics, your creeks, your Flanders Reds, and oud browns... a lot of those are going to be a mixed fermentation beer.

Dylan Schafer 12:35

That mixed fermentation has changed a little bit as time has gone on. In modern day commercial brewing both in the United States and over in Europe, we see a lot of brewers that are kind of pseudo mixed fermenting. Where they are actually introducing the bacteria and yeast themselves, instead of just letting the wild stuff come in from the open air. So it's... the Belgians really have a unique take on their different styles of beer, because all of their different styles of beer will fall into those four general categories instead of the two general categories that we usually see over here in the States. So again, that being warm fermented beer, cool fermented beer, mixed fermented beer, and then spontaneously fermented beer.

Connor Brekke 13:17

I'm a sour person so... do you have a preference? Or do you just love all beer?

Dylan Schafer 13:22

Yeah, you know, I do always tell people I'm a pretty indiscriminate drinker. I will say from my experience, and just about everyone else I talked to... a mixed fermentation beer is, as far as sours go, is going to have a much more nuanced and complex flavor profile to it. So a lot of modern day sours are brewed with a technique called kettle souring, where you do all the showering in a very, very controlled environment. Historically speaking, this mixed fermentation was not necessarily a very controlled environment. It was whatever bacteria and yeast happened to be around. And that aspect of it really gave the beer, a lot of nuance and a lot of complexity. So personally speaking, I do really enjoy a mixed fermentation or spontaneous fermentation beer. There are some risks that go along with it. The kind of the industry standard for those people who are still doing spontaneous fermentation is that on average, you'll dump between one and seven or one and 10 batches will go down the drain, because it's just not as controlled of an environment and you may not get the flavor profile you're looking for.

Connor Brekke 14:30

Right, because you're just letting wild yeast strains come in. They do whatever they feel like then...

Dylan Schafer 14:36

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 14:36

....instead of having a specific... strain, it's just kind of a piñata.

Dylan Schafer 14:41

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, sometimes that turns out phenomenally. And when it turns out good, I'll say this... they are just absolutely awesome. When it turns out poor, they're usually pretty gross, and they wind up going down the drain.

Connor Brekke 14:55

So as with any beers, there's always glassware that accompanies it. And then Belgian ales kind of have their... I don't know they have kind of their own unique take on glassware. They seem to have different types of glassware more abundant than other styles of beer. Just to name a few of them, like tulip glasses, they're pretty common. The basically enhance your olfactory sensations and visuals they kind of. It's kind of like wine tasting sort of, in that aspect. And then you got like the champagne like flute glasses for lambic and fruited beer. They basically help retain that carbonated sparkle. And then the one I'm excited to talk about, the one that I brought with me today is the Kwak glass.

Connor Brekke 15:37

The Pauwel Kwak story is kind of an interesting thing. I can't really... it's kind of one of those legend things. So I might be true? It might not be true? But I'll tell the story anyways. So Pauwel Kwak is a Belgian ale. It's been brewed since the 1980s. It's currently got about well, there's different styles, but generally, it's an 8.4% ABV. It was supposedly named after the 18th century innkeeper and brewer, Pauwel Kwak. And this is significant because this was back when you took a coach, you know, horse drawn coach to wherever you needed to go, then the coach driver would drive from place to place. But the poor guy couldn't get out of his coach and go into the tavern or wherever and get a drink... you know, feel sad for them. So this gentleman, Pauwel Kwak, supposedly invented this glass for the coach drivers. When you see it on the Facebook page, it's it's a very interesting looking contraption. The glass itself kind of looks like one of those old fashioned horns with the rubber squeezy part and then the cone shaped top of it, and it sits in this interesting glass holder. And then that's significant because it was designed to be mountable in the coach and then the driver could drink it really easily without spilling it. And then he would be served by somebody from the inn would come out and pour him a glass. So it's a very interesting way to drink beer. I remember the first time I encountered this was in... St. Paul, Minnesota, and we were at a place and I saw this thing come out and I'm like, "What is that?" And my buddy and I were like, "yeah, we'll just order whatever that is. We don't care what's in it. We just want the glass." So yeah, it's a it's a very interesting way to, to drink beer.

Dylan Schafer 17:22

And it's a really cool glass. It's almost like the traditional shaped glassware of Belgian meats like the beer stein with the wood handle and, and base and everything for it. They are really, really cool glass and I had the pleasure of drinking a beer out of one yesterday and I drank out of a straight pint versus drinking out of the Kwak. And it does really change the presentation of the beer pretty significantly and... credit where credit is due. The Belgians really pioneered the... some of the effects of glassware. They were designing just fantastic glassware that just amplified all your your senses when you're consuming beer. Even here down at Dialectic we started serving all of our hoppy beers are IPAs and stuff out of about a Belgian tulip. Primary reason is we were serving them out of kind of a traditional straight sided pint. And one day I accidentally poured the beer into the wrong glass and the aroma and just the way the beer presents is so much more appealing out of that Belgian glass than it is just a typical straight sided glass. So the Belgians do have a lot of unique glassware out there. And they all do serve some really awesome purposes.

Connor Brekke 18:33

And actually the other day I brought... I brought this glass in and then we just started trying random beers out of it and... I tell you what, it definitely launches that aroma into your face. And whenever you drink it, towards the bottom, it has kind of this volute effect. It creates like an air bubble and it basically launches all the carbonation and all the aroma just straight up in your face. It's, it's quite a difference. It's actually surprising how different of a experience it is.

Dylan Schafer 19:02

Yeah, it really keeps that beer bubbling and releasing CO2, keeps it feeling effervescent, keeps a nice head on it and just really focuses those aromas.

Connor Brekke 19:12

So we're gonna take a break right now while we get set up for the tasting. So, stay tuned.

Connor Brekke 19:31

Welcome back guys. We took a little break here. Poured ourselves some of this very interesting Pauwel Kwak Traditional Belgian Special Ale, Family Brewing... not gonna pronounce that... ABV of 8.4 so I'm going to take my first sip here, before getting blasted with that wonderful aroma.

Dylan Schafer 19:51

Yeah, that glass really does just funnel that aroma right there.

Connor Brekke 19:55

That is smooth, beautiful amber color. Now you can see the little vortex that it created when I drink it.

Dylan Schafer 20:02

Yeah, all...

Connor Brekke 20:03

Launching everything.

Dylan Schafer 20:04

All those bubbles and everything, just keep releasing and rolling up the sides of that glass. And like you said it is in a ridiculously smooth beer. Had I not known what its alcohol percentage was before consuming it, I would not have guessed it's as high as 8.5%. It's got just enough sweetness to keep that booziness at bay and keep everything balanced. And then just enough bitterness to balance out the sweetness of it. So it is just a really well rounded, complex beer. Go figure it's a classic Belgian beer. It's well rounded, complex and nuanced. And it just has that that heavy kind of off-white head to it. Presents beautifully.

Connor Brekke 20:48

Yeah, this is definitely new. I don't think this is what they served me last time, though. It was... it was more come towards the wit style, I think.

Dylan Schafer 20:56

Okay.

Connor Brekke 20:57

Maybe it wasn't even a Kwak, I don't know. Maybe they just had the glasses or something... that was a long time ago.

Dylan Schafer 21:03

Could have been kind of lighter, more refreshing Belgian option?

Connor Brekke 21:08

Yeah, I mean, you, you don't necessarily have to drink a Kwak out of this. I mean, it's, I'm gonna drink all kinds of things out of it. It'd be fun to see what you can experience because like I say the flavor profile is different because it enhances your olfactory senses so heavily. How much is left in it? Go ahead and have the rest.

Dylan Schafer 21:26

I won't say no to that.

Connor Brekke 21:28

All yours.

Dylan Schafer 21:29

Yeah, I drank just a classic American blonde ale out of this glass last night. And I really wanted to see what difference the glass would make on a fairly simple, straightforward beer. So I had a straight sided glass versus the Kwak glass and poured each one with just a classic American blonde ale. And it... yeah, it really does make a significant difference. So any of you listeners out there who don't believe that glassware makes a difference, grow your glass collection and, and suit the beer to its glass.

Connor Brekke 22:03

Exactly. I mean, I'm kind of a glassware collector, but that's just because I have a problem. But I do definitely taste different things out of it. You know... this... go somewhere, get a crowler, get a growler, get a bottle, and just experiment with it. It's always kind of fun just to see those subtle differences that enhance your drinking experience.

Dylan Schafer 22:23

You know, and I will say this too, we're drinking this Kwak at what is probably 55 degrees, I would guess 55 maybe 60 degrees and drinking a somewhat multi kind of full bodied European beer at that room temperature is absolutely ideal for me. It really does help bring out all the nuance and the and the flavor characteristics in that beer having it at a little bit warmer temperature. And you absolutely get that iconic, Belgian ale yeast characteristic. You know, it's got a little bit of that funk to it. Almost a little kind of spicy phenol, you know, clove a hint of black pepper in there, and then a really nice fruity ester to it as well. That's always been one of my favorite things about drinking Belgian beers is a lot of them are very, very yeast forward flavor profile, where you get flavor coming from the hops and the yeast or the hops in the malt obviously. But a very substantial part of the flavor profile of this beer you can tell is coming from the Belgian ale yeast in it. And I am just generally speaking a big fan of the those kind of yeast forward beers. I love Belgian say saisons, Belgian blonde ales, Belgian IPAs. This is my first experience with Kwak, but it.. is it's very fantastic.

Connor Brekke 23:49

And then for those interested in where I got this, I just basically Googled Belgian ales and there's a website called... Belgian ales that you can get all kinds of fun stuff in the US. This wasn't the only one there's a whole bunch of them but I remember the glass and I was like "yeah, that's what I'm gonna get." We actually got, like I mentioned earlier, a Trappist beer segment coming up. I have some ales from Spencer Brewing, the only Trappist... official, accredited Trappist Monk brewery in the US. And I think there's only eight of them in the world. So we're pretty lucky to have that. But, stay tuned.

Dylan Schafer 24:27

Yeah, it's seven or eight. There... there's not many of them out there. So having one in the United States... is pretty surprising, but...

Connor Brekke 24:35

Well guys, I hope you enjoyed the show today. A bit different, kind of a broad topic, but it definitely will expand your mind to the world of beer, and we look forward to having you listen in next time. So until then, cheers.

Connor Brekke 24:52

The Ombibulous is made possible with Castos, giving creators the tools to connect with their audience and community and music is curtius of Pond5. With over 25 million royalty free stock videos, music, photos and sound effects, where's something for every creator. Today's content was recorded here at Dialectic Brewing Company in Mandan, North Dakota. I would like to thank Dylan Schafer for the use of his facility and time to create this episode. For the latest updates, videos, photos and web links to our guests, please consider checking out our Facebook page, The Ombibulous Podcast. And of course, a big thank you to all our listeners. Thank you for all of your support. Until next time, cheers.

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On today's show we formally introduce you to the buisness you've been familiar with from past episodes, Mandan North Dakota's Thomas And Moriarty's. We have a chat with Michael Kashey and lean how he and his buisness came to be.

http://www.thomasandmoriartys.com/

SPEAKERS

Michael Kashey, Connor Brekke

Connor Brekke 00:11

Hello everyone and welcome back to The Ombibulous, a show where we discuss a variety of topics about alcohol. From beer styles, the brewing process, distillation in spirits and even liquor laws, there's a fascinating world to discover. On today's episode, we talk about the origins of Mandan's very own Thomas Moriarty's. Joining me today is Michael Kashey of Thomas and Moriarty's here in downtown Mandan. I'm your host, Connor Brekke. Let's all raise a glass to, The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:48

Alright everybody, welcomeback to the show. Today we have a special episode. I'm joined here with Mr. Michael Kashey of Thomas Moriarty's. And today we're going to learn a bit about how he and his business came to be. So, Mr. Michael, thank you for coming back on the show.

Michael Kashey 01:05

Yeah, thanks for having me again.

Connor Brekke 01:07

Always a pleasure. So tell us a bit about yourself. And how you became, you know, the cocktail wizard of the area.

Michael Kashey 01:16

Uh... wizard's kind of a, kind of a strong word. But hey, I'll take it. Yeah, so I actually grew up around here grew up in Linton. Joined the army right out of high school, moved over to Germany, where I stayed for a few years after getting out came back. And I was planning on going to college to be a history teacher. So I got a job over in Bismarck bartending. I was just going to do it for... kind of put my way through college and ended up really kind of falling in love with it. And a few years later, well, long story short, here we are.

Connor Brekke 01:49

Could you explain to us how like, you came to like, all the knowledge of all this stuff? Was it just trial and error? Or is it just previous bartending experience, self study, little all of the above, I guess?

Michael Kashey 02:02

A little of all of the above. But, what really got me into it was, I was lucky and had trained under Kate Gerwin, who is.. if anyone's like, kind of a cocktail geek... she was the first American and the first woman to hold a major world's title in bartending. And she had won the Bols World Championship in 2015... 2016? So I got a lot of knowledge from her a lot of the kind of the training program from her and then another guy called Tobin Ellis, who's really brought back free pouring, which is what we do. So if you ever watching us, we don't use jiggers too much, you know, the little measuring things? But we're actually... we're accurate with our poures, we test ourselves daily. Um, so I learned from them, and then a lot of kind of geeking, out reading books, podcasts, working different like big cocktail events. San Antonio Cocktail Conference is still probably one of my absolute favorite memories, I'd say related to the industry, and then you trial and error. Sometimes something just doesn't work.

Connor Brekke 03:13

That's pretty impressive. It's pretty cool that you got the opportunity to train under her. I don't really know a whole lot about how cocktails came to be and you know the art form behind it. But that sounds like a pretty, pretty great experience. Your name Thomas and Moriarty. I know you guys get a lot of questions about that. Could you elaborate on the two characters from that name?

Michael Kashey 03:37

Yeah, like... god... people even ask how to pronounce it. We were at the city commission meeting a few years ago... and they introduced this as Thomas and Mariachi's. So don't be surprised if, one day down the road, there's a Thomas and Mariachi drink, but yeah...

Connor Brekke 03:52

No trumpet players?

Michael Kashey 03:54

Oh, god.... Yeah, so the name's stemming from.. well, once again, going back to that craft aspect of it.... Jerry Thomas was a bartender in the 1800s, he wrote the very first American cocktail book called "How To Mix Drinks or A Bon Vivant's Companion." And it was the first time in history that a... there had been a list of cocktails and ingredients and recipes for it. So he was super famous bartender at the time and called... the.... we call now the "godfather of American mythology." So we wanted to kind of focus on that kind of timeframe for a theme. So we wanted to do like the late 1800s, early 1900s themes, a kind of Victorian era theme, and then the Moriarty is is actually coming from Sherlock Holmes. My girlfriend who owns a place with me, we're both kind of like, I'm more of a small time literary geek, but she was a history... or sorry, she was a English and communications major. So we wanted to really kind of focus on the literature aspect of it too. So we've kind of been developed In the last few years, like a mythos too of Jerry Thomas, working with Professor Moriarty to defeat Sherlock Holmes.

Connor Brekke 05:09

And then you came and open this place, you had kind of an interesting location hunting process, if I recall?

Michael Kashey 05:15

Yeah, so we actually weren't ever supposed to be a physical bar. My girlfriend, business partner, boss, came to be asked if she wanted, we wanted to open up a, like a cocktail truck. So we're going to do is we're going to get basically an old food truck, and then turn it into a mobile bar, and not just do events, but like set up in different locations and be able to serve, and then that would open up possibilities to travel around the country. However, North Dakota law, you have to have a physical location to have a alcohol license. So we ended up kind of going go in here, we looked at a couple different spots, one of them... two of them were very old buildings. One of them was early 1900s and we had never... we... the building manager was super excited for us to move in. But we had never heard from the business, the building owner as well. Turns out, they didn't want to bother going in there, which.... you know, that would have been nice to know. They could have told us, you know... within six weeks, I guess. And then we moved to another spot actually right across the street from where we're at started construction. That building was built in 1893. It was the old... it was the first bank of Morton County. And then little, little ways in the construction, thank God we didn't go crazy, we found out we would have had to put a fire suppression system in the entire building, which would have eaten up our entire loan. So we ditched that spot and then ended up here.

Connor Brekke 06:46

Yeah, I do remember that. Seeing that in your upcoming Facebook thing is "uh oh, we got to change the location."

Michael Kashey 06:53

Yeah, it was a rough at first because like the first six months, it's like you're working with your ex and you're constantly staring at them since we're literally right across the street. We had really fallen in love with that building and then like "no, just kidding."

Connor Brekke 07:08

But the building you have now.. I mean, I like it.

Michael Kashey 07:10

This space would have been a completely different spot if we would have went over there. So I do, they worked out in the end, and I'm happy with it.

Connor Brekke 07:19

Then going back on kind of the literary aspect of your guys's establishment and your drink names have a lot of interesting stories behind them too. On a previous episode, we talked about Absinthe and Sunsets and how that kind of was a thing and...

Michael Kashey 07:34

Yeah, yeah, so one like that, like we do have a lot of a... little bit more pop culture right now. But we do we have been getting back into that, that like timeframe, literature, that aspect of like the cocktail names, but like Absinthe and Sunsets, that's coming from an Oscar Wilde quote. he supposedly was a big absinthe drinker, although like I think he wrote about actually kind of hating absinthe, but he liked the appearance of liking absence, I guess.

Connor Brekke 08:03

You guys definitely have an extensive menu right now. The summer's here, full force, and you've got your really, really big menu going. The gin and tonic menu, your signature cocktails are quite numerous. How do you guys come up with your signatures?

Michael Kashey 08:20

Well, there's a couple different ways of doing it. I do something that it in the industry, they'd call it like "Mr. Potato Head," and you'll take an already existing drink, and you'll swap out ingredients until you have your own original drink. Other times, there's like one flavor profile that we kind of build off of and decide to expand, whether we are complementing that or contrasting with that. And then other times, all of a sudden, like you're like hey, this sounds good. This sounds good. This sounds good. And like Oh, just a couple minor tweaks and you know, you have a brandy or a blackberry brandy infuse Tiki drink on the menu that ends up being really good and popular.

Connor Brekke 09:03

Is there any highlights you'd like to tell, or popular ones on the menu?

Connor Brekke 09:08

Yeah, one of the... god... going now I think that on the last three menus, the Louise Wiley. It's a riff on a... we're constantly like taking either classics or modern classics and reworking them and some of them we do almost with the exact same ingredients. We just do a different way and that's what this one ended up being. So the Louise Wiley is actually a riff on a Pornstar Martini, which the pornstar Martini is going to be vanilla vodka, lemon, a passion fruit, usually like passion fruit puree, and then you get a glass of like champagne or like some sort of a bubbly on the side and then you pour that in. Well, so what we did is the Louise Wiley is actually one of the first erotic film actresses basically, early 1900s did a striptease, and then we reworked that into a more modern format, where with the passion fruit and the champagne, we turned into a foam. So there's a nice foam that sits on top of that one.

Connor Brekke 10:11

And then you also have a classic cocktail menu. We've got quite a few on your guys's summer menu. You got your old fashions you've got Cosmos, which I just had for the first time here. We've got Ramos Gin Fizz, you got all kinds of good stuff. Any highlights there that people seem to really like?

Michael Kashey 10:28

Yeah, the old fashion is our biggest selling drink of all time. I mean, it's a super simple drink that is hard to make. It's weird but when you have just three ingredients, sugar, spirit, bitters, you have... you can't hide behind anything. So I think we go through a lot of those for that particular reason, like people can make them at home but they're just not the same. And then you can go to other places and they're still just not going to be the same.

Connor Brekke 10:55

Then you always get the magic of watching somebody make it too. Especially in a place like this, it's got that nice little vibe. Food menu... you have charcuterie boards, which are pretty famous, I think anyways, I hear a lot of good things about them.

Michael Kashey 11:10

Yeah. We I think we're one of the first in the area that was... we were the first that was focused on charcuterie I should say that's that's for sure. Like That was our, our food and that was all we had right away. And then I do like seeing that it's popping up around here because it's a, I feel like it's a super underrated, really staple in most of the world. And so it's nice to be able to get it at other places. That's not just here.

Connor Brekke 11:37

Yeah the charcuterie tray is something that can't really stay away from. Like you usually have like a wild game... something like... I think the last one I had was... elk and blueberry and...

Michael Kashey 11:46

Yep, elk and blueberry is here for the summer I think.

Connor Brekke 11:50

That was phenomenal. And then in past you've had..

Michael Kashey 11:53

Had like wild boar. I think we've had venison before too.

Connor Brekke 11:56

Yep, venison. Then the churizo is always good. And then the cheese is... they've got some pretty epic cheeses. I don't know... I'm a huge fan of Gouda.

Michael Kashey 12:05

Yeah, that truffle Gouda is.... and then we do like the truffle Gouda mac and cheese.

Connor Brekke 12:10

Oh, yeah, the truffle Gouda mac and cheese is.... completely delicious. In addition to charcuterie, you've done other kinds of things too. Like I just call them fancy hotdogs, you've done different kinds of pies. Interesting desserts too.

Michael Kashey 12:26

Are hot items, actually, we change out by season. So spring summer, we're doing hot dogs. So we'll have like a, some sort of, like gourmet brat. And then we'll make... we'll house make our own toppings for it. And then the winter time we'll be doing pot pies. And those are... god... those, those go crazy. So if you if you want them, you got to get in at the beginning and the very end of the week in the middle, we're probably still trying to build up our supply again. But right now for summer, we added a couple new things. We've got our pickle plates, which is a couple different pickled, like pickled vegetables with some cultured butter to kind of cut down on that acid. We also added conservas, which are really popular in like Spain and Portugal. And those are going to be like those, sounds bad, but they're going to be like the canned fish. But they're one hand picked, or hand caught I should say. They're and they're really high quality fish. And then they're marinated in like olive oil or like something else different spices and stuff like that.

Connor Brekke 12:51

You also have a beer in the shot menu, something I guess I'm not really... I haven't actually had a beer in a shot. But you do have some interesting ones here.

Michael Kashey 13:44

Yeah, I will say our beer menu is small. And that's because of storage. About 90% actually is probably higher than that of our drink sales are cocktails. When we opened we did have like a really good wine list. But we just we people were just drinking our cocktails and not the wine. So we pushed through that. And now we just have two wines. And then I think five maybe six beers when we can find them now? I guess there's been some issues with certain companies getting hacked, which slows down production.

Connor Brekke 14:20

Who would have thought? And then you also have, one of my personal favorites, the gin and tonic selection. You've got a number of em' on here too. They're... pretty... pretty hot selling summer item too.

Michael Kashey 14:33

Yeah, so this summer we have, not only we expanded our signature cocktails, we brought back the full gin and tonic menu. But we we also expanded it to do some more low ABV stuff. So we have the gin and tonics where we're pairing gins with usually like fruits or herbs that are going to like accent the botanicals in the gin. And then we also added high balls and spritzes and these are going to be a really light low ABV perfect Kinda for summer drinking drinks.

Connor Brekke 15:02

I'm yet to dive into these spirits in highball, but I can definitely attest for the gin and tonic. And then you also have something that I really enjoy. It's for people who don't drink alcohol. You know, it's you sit down on a bar and it's like, "I'll just take a 7-Up" or something. But you got a full blown mocktail menu too... which is lovely.

Michael Kashey 15:20

Yeah, I think right now we've got six, no, like, no ABV drinks. That's actually going to be expanding soon as we've finally gotten some non alcoholic spirits that are actually really good and affordable. Typically, when you get a non alcoholic spirit, they might be really good. But the price point they would actually be more expensive than our cocktails.

Connor Brekke 15:46

We've run down the menu and I was just wondering, is there a specific drink you really like making or is there something special to you?

Michael Kashey 15:55

So I will say, as labor intensive as it can be the payoff makes it worth it, Ramos Gin Fizzes. I think we're one of the few bars around the area that will make them. Once again, they're fairly simple, but there are a process. So it's a classic New Orleans cocktail. It's really light, little citrusy. But it's gin, lemon, cream, egg white, and seltzer water, and it ends up being a really nice light frothy drink. But, it's usually around five to eight minutes of shaking. So on a busy night, it kind of bogs us down, but it's still worth it. If you want to Ramos.. if someone will make you a Ramos get it.

Connor Brekke 16:40

It's really delicious. Just understand how long and the labor intensiveness is.

Michael Kashey 16:44

Yeah, if you, you might see me cry a little bit on a busy night. But as soon as, soon as that straw goes in, and you get that, that little bit coming over the edge.... it's it's it's a it's magic.

Connor Brekke 16:58

It is magic.

Connor Brekke 16:58

It's, it's a very weird feeling still, because I'll be like, "ah, not another one." And as soon as like I'm getting ready to take it out I'm like "Ah." It's... it's amazing.

Connor Brekke 17:10

So to accompany your guys's menu and everything you guys have kind of like the equivalent of a cocktail bar mug club membership. The Main Streets Irregulars? Could you tell us a little bit about that and how to get one?

Michael Kashey 17:22

Yeah, so that is a... it's a once a year membership. It works a lot like, you know, mug clubs will work at the breweries. So it's once a year, it's $100 a year. But with that whenever we do classes or tastings, you get first dibs on tickets and 25% off. And then there's also a point system so "X" many points and you get a free cocktail. So many more points, you get a.. like a free charcuterie board. And then I can't remember exactly off the top of my head, how high it goes and what all it entails. But there are perks to it as well. And then we do like members, members only kind of events too.

Connor Brekke 18:06

Yeah, let's talk about events briefly. We just came out of the pandemic, which has affected everybody in various ways. But you guys had classes. You did different types of events here at the bar here. And one of them I remember was Rogue Faerie Theater. And I believe that's making a return?

Michael Kashey 18:26

Yeah. So while rogue fairy theater is like our version of open stage is more so than an open mic. So like people come in and do magic, some people do slam poetry will get music. Someone's done stand up. So people have just read, like not from their books, but other people's books, which are... they tend to be more funny. So yeah, it's a different little twist on a open mic. And sometimes there's the nightd, like a few weeks ago, they had a carnival theme. So we had like three or four people come dressed as like clowns, like Victorian clowns, so I was very uncomfortable. But it's usually like kind of fun stuff.

Connor Brekke 19:11

I've been to a few of them. It's a variety show. I mean, don't expect just straight up music. I remember just hearing poetry. It's nice to mix it up a bit. As far as like classes and that stuff for those coming back soon.. or still kind of holding off on those.

Michael Kashey 19:26

Yes, weare going to be bringing them back shortly. We are trying to figure out the schedule. So hopefully by the time this airs, we might have one or two things we can drop in a link.

Connor Brekke 19:37

I do like a good class. One thing to drink your favorite drink, then you kind of get to learn a little history about it. But then again, that's why this podcast exists too. So stay tuned.

Michael Kashey 19:47

Yeah, it's, it's called it's called history.

Connor Brekke 19:51

History is good.

Michael Kashey 19:51

It's not drinking, it's learning

Connor Brekke 19:53

It is learning.

Connor Brekke 19:54

Do you have any future plans for this place any like... your menu rotates seasonally, but do you have any...

Michael Kashey 20:00

Yeah, so we'll be doing... our menu will actually be scaled back down. I think right now we have something... maybe around 60 cocktails between all four menus on the... like on the current like... four categories on the current menu. So we're going to be scaling it back down for winter. But then we're going to be starting to do some limited menus as well. So we'll have like small themed menus, like usually around four to maybe six drinks for a limited time and then we'll rotate that out.

Connor Brekke 20:30

And then the you do offer takeout, still, for food.

Michael Kashey 20:33

Yep. Yep. Just give us a call.

Connor Brekke 20:35

Then you cater too with your guys'...

Michael Kashey 20:37

Yes, we are doing catering now. We should be able to do the Bismarck, Mandan area, I believe? So you got a wedding? You got a birthday party, a barmitzvah? We are possibly the place?

Connor Brekke 20:51

I would say yes. So it's both you and Stacy, who own this place? Could you explain your guys's roles here? I mean, you're obviously like... the one bartending for the most part.

Michael Kashey 21:02

Yes... so she's gonna do all the actual like important stuff. You know, like making sure that we paid rent, or we filed for our liquor license. Otherwise, if it was me, we probably wouldn't have made it a month. And then I I kind of had I handle all the, the sadly the fun stuff that you get to see. So I'm coming up with the drink menu. I should say, I'm coming up with the drinks that go on the menu, she does design the menus. So if you ever look at our menus, and you really like them while give, give Stacey a shout out,

Connor Brekke 21:35

They're pretty elaborate. And I will say I definitely like the artwork on them. And then do you have anybody else working here? I know in the past you had another bartender who's not, no longer around.

Michael Kashey 21:46

Yeah, we, we usually try to have... I mean, have another person depending on if it's busy enough. But a lot of times you'll see Rachel in, and this menu, she actually put out a lot of drinks that went on the menu, so we got to give her a shout out then too.

Connor Brekke 22:04

So people can stop in, they can call you, or check out your Facebook page.. a few different ways to get ahold of you.

Michael Kashey 22:11

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 22:11

Well, I appreciate you taking the time to share your story, and the story of Thomas and Moriarty's with us. You know, if you're in the Bismarck Mandan area and you want to try something fun, something different, I would highly recommend coming down and checking them out. But uh... construction right now, hopefully by the time this thing airs, it's gone. But, a little bit trickier to get down to but don't let that scare you away.

Michael Kashey 22:32

Oh, yeah. And also we don't take ourselves too seriously. If you just want... if you want something simple, like a whiskey Coke, we we gotcha. Usually when we tear down, I'm drinking like a grape pucker and soda so... you can get what you want. As long as we have it.

Connor Brekke 22:49

It's a very warming environment, so don't be afraid. Alright, well, that concludes today's show. Thank you for tuning in, and I'll see you next time. Cheers.

Connor Brekke 22:59

The Ombibulous is made possible with Castos, giving creators the tools to connect with their audience and community. The music is courteous of Pond 5. With over 25 million royalty free stock videos, music, photos, and sound effects. There's something every creator. Today's episode was recorded at Thomas and Moriarty's is in downtown Mandan, North Dakota. I would like to thank Mr. Kashey for his time, and the use of his facility to make this episode possible. For the latest updates, videos, photos and web links to our guests, please consider checking out our Facebook page, The Ombibulous podcast. And of course, a big thank you to all our listeners. Thank you for all of your support. Until next time, cheers.

View Details

Where's the rum!? Well, on today's episode, we learn a little history about rum and where you can find some.

Rum

SPEAKERS

Michael Kashey, Connor Brekke

Connor Brekke 00:07

Hello everyone and welcome back to The Ombibulous, a show where we discuss a variety of topics about alcohol. From beer styles, the brewing process, distillation, in spirits and even liquor laws, there's a fascinating world to discover. On today's episode, we discover the history of rum. Joining me today is Michael Kashey of Thomas and Moriarty's here in downtown Mandan. I'm your host, Connor Brekke. Let's all raise a glass to The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:42

Welcome back to the show everybody. Today... the question is... where's the rum? Well, luckily, we have an answer for you. I'm joined again with Mr. Michael Kashey. And today's episode, we're going to go through a little bit of history about rum, and where you might be able to find some hint, there's a place in Mandan. Alright, so rum, what is rum in short?

Michael Kashey 01:06

So basically, rum is going to be a once again a distilled spirit that's going to be made from sugarcane or a byproduct of like sugarcane production. So either a sugarcane juice or molasses, which is going to be what's leftover when you boil sugarcane down.

Connor Brekke 01:25

And then the name rum is kind of uncertain, I suppose. There's a few, few ideas out there where it came from. One of them being, I believe the word rumbullion. The beverage of boiling sugarcane stocks.

Michael Kashey 01:40

Yeah, that, to me seems more like the... what would be most likely the actual origin of the word rum. But honestly, who knows?

Connor Brekke 01:52

It's a mystery.

Michael Kashey 01:52

It's been around for hundreds and hundreds of years, probably actually even longer than we even think.

Connor Brekke 01:58

Yeah, cuz anything alcohol, it's like, "oh, here's something let's ferment it." And "poof" there there you go.

Michael Kashey 02:03

Well, then distilling is possibly older than we thought, as well.

Connor Brekke 02:09

So rum is fermented from molasses sugar cane, and then are there... like how do you get it to that fermented stage? There's different types of yeasts?

Michael Kashey 02:21

Yeah, so you can either do... most distillers or a lot of distillers, I should say are going to use like a specific yeast strain. And then other distillers are going to actually basically do an open air fermentation where they allow all of those random, wild natural yeasts to get in there. And then those are usually get, you'll have like a little bit of a funk to those because usually though, but, actually once again, rum is insanely confusing. So I don't want to say that this type is going to yield this type of rum because as soon as you get in into this still, it's going to be a totally different rum. Rum is... it's a wild card, there's no legislation, really with the exception of rum agricole. So rum can be produced anywhere, any kind of flavor profile, it's... it's a bit of a nightmare trying to decide what, what kind of rum is what and how to classify it.

Connor Brekke 03:17

And then of course, you you have to ferment it, and then in goes to the distilling medium. So it can be done in either pots or columns.

Michael Kashey 03:26

Yep.

Connor Brekke 03:26

As you said, there's no real standard. It's just kind of whatever they feel like.

Michael Kashey 03:31

Yeah, and then... the different types of stills are going to have a different flavor profile as well. So if you're doing something, like and it's gonna be the same with whiskey or anything else, but you tend to notice it more in rum I feel if you do like a pot still, you're gonna have a little bit more of that kind of funk to it. It's almost like a grassy kind of kind of like... like how IPAs have that dankyness to them, really common with Jamaican rums. You do a column still it's going to be a little bit lighter and tend to be sweeter.

Connor Brekke 04:04

Then generally these are aged in barrels of some type?

Michael Kashey 04:07

Yeah, so this is once again, where rum gets super confusing, because some rums are bottled directly. Some rums are aged for two years, eight years, 10 years, so they tend to be like an amber color. Other rums are aged for six to seven years, or 10 years, and then they're filtered out to where there once again, a clear rum. So with a rum, you'll sometimes have a older rum that is going to be clear, like a brand new spirit would. And there's no rhyme... well, there's no rhyme or reason as far as I know as to why.

Connor Brekke 04:47

You mean there's no "rum" or reason?

Michael Kashey 04:49

Oh no...

Connor Brekke 04:50

I couldn't resist.

Michael Kashey 04:50

No puns.

Connor Brekke 04:52

...Um, so like, I guess this is just me and maybe other people, but as soon as I hear rum I always think of pirates. Can't help it, I guess thanks uh... Disney and Johnny Depp for that maybe. But...

Michael Kashey 05:05

Yeah, it's kind of kind of inevitable now. The thing with rum is everybody was drinking rum. Not not just pirates. But I think because we tend to look at seafaring people, seafaring people? Seafaring jobs? What would what would a pirate be??? Seafaring individuals as drinking what was kind of common in the areas that they were going to. And we saw a lot of piracy in the Caribbean. So they would have been drinking a lot of rum. But so was the Navy too. The British Royal Navy, actually, until 1972, I believe? Don't quote me on that year, but they got rid of their rum ration. One, it was distilled, so it would last longer than water or beer. And then two, it was plentiful because of the ironic, unfortunately, the slave trade in the Caribbean area. So there was a lot of rum being produced at that time.

Connor Brekke 06:05

And then I believe this specific period is in the 1600s-ish. I do remember seeing a date about that. And then rum was basically a sailors ration in the Royal Navy.

Michael Kashey 06:18

Yep. Yep. They called it the the black tot? No, the black tot was the last the last, like rations that they did. But they had went from... they started diluting it. Oh god I can't, late 1700s I believe with with lime...

Connor Brekke 06:38

Grog? The 17... let's just call it the mid 1700s.

Michael Kashey 06:42

Well, Grog was kind of a sloppy kind of a mess. But later on it be ended up being diluted a little bit more with lime, sugar, and then a little bit of water, which is kind of what created the trinity of... especially Cuban cocktails, rum, lime sugar. So if you're a Daiquiri freak, that's where that came from.

Connor Brekke 07:05

So we go from a bunch of pirates drinking rum on the ship, and... you know... looting and all that stuff. But what is rum today? How much has changed since then.

Michael Kashey 07:14

Well, from what I've seen, I think rum is expanded because it's being produced a lot more. 60 some countries, I think, almost every single continent with the exception of Antartica is producing rum. So we're getting a lot more experimental. We're beginning to see more blenders and most rums are blended. So they're bought, they're bought from a distillery and then they're blended from a different producer. So we're starting to see I think a lot of different types of flavor profiles get introduced. And then we're also seeing new or old styles being resurrected. We have one by one of my favorite producers called plantation Reverence Stiggins, and it's going to be a old... it would have been Victorian era style rum that would have been infused with uh... pineapples. So it's a really juicy, rich, delicious rum that had basically been wiped out for 200 years and is now back in probably one of the best runs you'll ever have.

Connor Brekke 08:20

There's something called Batavia I think, would you mind telling us a bit about that?

Michael Kashey 08:25

Yeah, so Batavia or Batavia Arrack, a-r-r-a-c-k... and that's going to be important in a second, this is going to be an Indonesian sugarcane spirit is very similar to rum. And if you would look at old punch recipes, they're going to be calling... actually, they won't call for rum, they're going to call for batavia, batava arrack. This is going to be made from sugarcane. But it's also going to use a red rice yeast to kind of kickstart the fermentation. So it's going to be super, super funky. One of the best descriptions I've seen of it described it as a mix of horseradish, and vanilla. And then just one day it clicks. It's weird because I felt the same way. But all of a sudden, like one day, I was like, wait, this is actually really, really good. It's like something you've never had before.

Connor Brekke 09:16

That is a very interesting combination.

Michael Kashey 09:18

It doesn't taste like horseradish, and vanilla, but it's like the concept of mixing horseradish and vanilla. It doesn't work... but all of a sudden, like, "Hey, I get this." And then we had somebody who asked for a glass of arrack. And I was like, "Yeah, no, we have that." And I start pouring this like, "That's not right." I'm like, "well, this is" and arrack is with one "R" is Middle Eastern, like almost like an ouzo, kind of a black licorice spirit. So specify between Batavia or arack if you're looking for that.

Connor Brekke 09:53

Okay. Good to know. So we've talked about the history of Rome and stuff. I'm sure people want to, want to get one right now. So like how... what are common ways to serve it and you kind of like etiquettes or anything that people should know.

Michael Kashey 10:07

It's gonna depend on the rum. Some rums are perfect just sipping on the rocks. Other rums are... really accent a cocktail well. Some rums are rum-esque, I should say. Spirits are better being used like as a spice and a cocktail just a little bit.

Connor Brekke 10:27

Then as far as what you guys have to offer, what do you have on your guys's menu?

Michael Kashey 10:31

I think right now our rum selection actually is the smallest it's been in a while. I think we only have about 10, maybe 15 rums. But it It ranges from our like ones that we would use in our cocktails like the the Real McCoys which are fantastic and they're good on their own. But they're they're made made really well for cocktails and then we have others like Barrel who is a blender who's won a ton of awards. That would be something that you would typically sit on the rocks are neat if you can handle a like... 120 proof rum.

Connor Brekke 11:07

Then do you have a favorite way to serve room or drink it yourself?

Michael Kashey 11:10

It depends on the rum. Some rums I'm going to happen a cocktail. The Daiquiri, however, is my all time favorite cocktail. If I go to a place that's known for their cocktails the first drink I'm going to get doesn't matter what season it is... t's going to be a Daiquiri. Others, like I, have Muay Thai like a classic Muay Thai don't don't need that pineapple or passion fruit give me, give me tart give me nutty, give me a little sweet give me some better.

Connor Brekke 11:38

Muay Thais are always good.

Michael Kashey 11:40

Yeah, they... an underrated drink that unfortunately got, got ruined with the disco era.

Connor Brekke 11:46

Well we kind of learned a bit of history about rum and what the deal with pirates is and everything. So if you're curious about rum, I can't really I can't really name a better place than to come down here, Thomas and Moriarty's and try rum and get a cocktail get a Daiquiri and get a Muay Thai. So again, thank you for hosting me at your guys's place again, much appreciated.

Michael Kashey 12:08

Any time.

Connor Brekke 12:09

And come on down for a drink. Until next time, cheers.

Connor Brekke 12:14

The Ombibulous is made possible with Castos, giving creators the tools to connect with their audience and community. The music is courteous of Pond5. With over 25 million royalty free stock videos, music, photos and sound effects, there's something for every creator. Today's episode was recorded at Thomas and Moriarty's is in downtown Mandan, North Dakota. I would like to thank Mr. Kashey for his time, and the use of his facility to make this episode possible. Fot the latest updates, videos, photos and web links to our guests, please consider checking out our Facebook page, The Onbibulous podcast. And of course a big thank you to all our listeners. Thank you for all of your support. Until next time, cheers!

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On this episode, we are pleased to introduce you to a great place from Dickinson, ND. It's a traditional barbershop, cigar shop, and craft beer lounge. Their craft beer selection does a fantastic job of highlighting North Dakota craft beer. There's always something interesting to fine here. Please check out our Facebook page for photos and links to their buisness.

deporreshouse.com

SPEAKERS

Patrick Ahmann, Connor Brekke

Connor Brekke 00:03

Hello everyone and welcome back to The Ombibulous, a show where we discuss a variety of topics about alcohol. From beer styles, the brewing process, distillation, in spirits and even liquor laws, there's a fascinating world to discover. Joining me today is Patrick Ahmann of DePorres House of Barbering and Lounge here in Dickinson, North Dakota. On today's episode, we introduce you to Dickinson's very own DePorres House of Barbering and Lounge. I'm your host, Connor Brekke. Let's all raise a glass to The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:38

Welcome back to the show everybody and it is my pleasure to introduce Patrick Ahmann. Welcome to the show, and thank you for coming on.

Patrick Ahmann 00:46

Thanks for having me, I appreciate it.

Connor Brekke 00:47

So this place is a it's a traditional barber shop, cigar shop and a craft beer shop. The craft beer portion does a really good job of highlighting North Dakota brews and has all kinds of other fun stuff for you to try... coffee shop and some beer cocktails. But uh, why don't you introduce yourself and yeah, have at it.

Patrick Ahmann 01:09

Absolutely. So again, Connor said my name is Patrick Ahmann. I'm the lounge manager here at DePorres House of Barbering. I've been in that role for about a little over two years. I am a part time manager I guess. My full time job is as an eighth grade math teacher at Dickinson Middle School. I've been in Dickinson for about six years. We've moved from a variety of different places. We've lived in Idaho, Maine, Hawaii, I grew up in in North Dakota in Williston, North Dakota. We got back to Idaho and decided we want to get back to... to back to North Dakota here. So we've been here for about six years, and I've been teaching and coaching and had an opportunity through a couple of mutual friends to meet the owners ofDePorres here, Paul Ellerkamp and Matt Ellerkamp. And from there just as..., over the last three years, this... the partnership that I've had with the two owners here is ust kind of gradually grown and we got some really good things going on here. So outside of that, my own personal life, I've married to my wife, 15 years, her name is Tiffany. I have a daughter who's 10. She'll be a fifth grader this year, and we adopted a little boy, his name is Justin. He'll be a third grader this year. He's eight years old. And we recently just got a dog. Her name is Frannie. She's a fantastic dog. So just a little bit about myself... yep, that's that's what I got for you.

Connor Brekke 02:20

And you can see him serving up drinks every now and then down here. You can see him running around trying to get the really awesome beer selection that they have. It's uh... it's really cool. It's... North Dakota's beer scene is transformed dramatically in the last five-ish years. And it's kind of hard to find a place like this that actually brings in North Dakota beers because some of these places are, you know, brand spankin new and they don't have distribution yet. So it's, it's interesting to see Minot's Atypical or Fargo's Drum Conrath, or Swing Barrel, or Icewind, or you know some other different things you don't get to try out very often. So how did you become the beer manager here, the one in charge of all the tasty beverages.

Patrick Ahmann 03:05

So again, I have a couple of friends... we have a pay forward board here, and my buddy bought me a haircut and a beer and he said you got to come down to this right when this place opened up. And I came down and as soon as I walked in the door, I was in love with this place. They had seven taps of the taps they had they had the Coffee Bender from Surly on tap and, one of my favorite beers. Just just really super cool atmosphere, huge humidor, he would walk in the barber shop, 1950s kind of retro barber shop in the back end, it just was a different vibe. So maybe two weeks after I came in and met the owner and they put a post out there that's they're looking for somebody to pour beer. And I've been a craft beer lover for 20 years plus. And I thought well, what a better place. You know, I work as a teacher, it would be a great side gig came in, and as soon as I started pouring beer and talking to our customers, really just fell in love with this job. And I said probably about, maybe about a year into it I they've asked me both Matt and Paul approached me and asked me if I was interested in, you know, managing the place and trying to bring in different beers. And you know, we have a great relationship with three distributor, distributors that we have here in Dickinson and just trying to bring in different things, and then starting to build these relationships. So with a lot of these different breweries just reaching out to these people and asking if we can bring in their beer. So you know, that's kind of how it started. You know, just pouring beer talking to the people figuring out that we have a really good crappier crowd in this town. And you know, just from there, it's just they figured out that I knew a little bit about beer and some of the breweries have had a lot of different experiences traveling in the United States and, you know, family members that have craft beer guys. And so that's, that's kind of where it's at and, and just kind of grown from there. have been doing this, like I said, for about two little over two years now. As the manager here, then I just love every minute of it.

Connor Brekke 04:49

So what was your first introduction to craft beer or, you know, how you how you got into being a beer fan?

Patrick Ahmann 04:54

So yeah, I mean, my wife... initially, her brother, he's from Portland, Oregon. So those people that know craft beer Portland, Oregon is kind of the mecca of really good West Coast IPA stuff. We were dating at the time we made a trip out to Portland. I met her brother, maybe it the first time I met him? And he said, "Do you want a beer?" And I said, "Sure." And at that time, I was maybe drinking Coors Light, or Widmer Hefeweizen or something very light, easy drinking. And he said, "I got a beer for you." And he brought me an Old Rasputin, which is from North Coast brewing, I believe out of California. And it's a big beer, maybe 9, 10% and as soon as I drank it, it was just it was fantastic. You know, and from there he just was introduced me some darker beers, Black Butte Porter, out of Deschutes... you know, Obsidian Stout from Deschutes. And when we lived in Idaho at that point, there's some good beers from Oregon. So he kind of gave me that first introduction. And then from there, you know, he he brewed beer, it was just really intrigued by the process. And I just kept trying. Every brewery brings out new and fun and funky stuff. So I just kept trying stuff and it's gone from there I guess.

Connor Brekke 05:54

Yeah, the craft beer world is fascinating. I... I'm still kind of new at the whole craft beer. I think I only started really exploring about 2018. And there's a pretty awesome world out there. There's all kinds of different stuff. And then you guys do a really good job of... you do mostly a lot of North Dakota stuff. But then you also bring in some other more regional stuff, too, which is really great. That's just... you always have something different. We have kind of a spectrum of stuff on your guys's tap. And it's really cool to come in and go through a porter then a sour then a lager and then an IPA. It's always nice to try different things, you know, because you don't know what you like until you try them. Could you tell us a little bit about how this place came to be like, it's a barber shop, it's a lounge, it's a cigar shop, it's...

Patrick Ahmann 06:44

Yeah it's a little bit of everything. Yeah. So the like I said, when I... Paul and I've talked a lot about, you know, when he was up, it's up north in Dickinson Big Sky, he was always wanting to do that.. little cigar selection up there. And he's always been a craft beer guy. And so his his vision of this place was to open up a place where, you know, he could cut hair in the back him and his brother and a couple other people and he could pour a pint of beer for somebody maybe while they're waiting to get their hair cut, and it's just gone from there. It's just, you know, that was their vision of bringing some really good scar selection in the town, you know, to try to find that niche market here in Dickinson. So yeah, it's it's like I said for the last three years slowly but surely, we built this clientele of people that really enjoy good craft beer really enjoyed good cigars. We've started working on a coffee menu. We've got a couple girls up front that are fantastic at creating different menus for our different recipes for different coffees. Yeah, it just... it's some of the finer things kind of doing it... you know, old school where we... you know, customer service wins everything. You know, we're, we're here it's we always treat our customers, you know, whether they're in the lounge or in the barber shop. You know, just I think Customer service is very important. So that's that's kind of where we've been for the last few years with the DePorres.

Connor Brekke 07:56

Normally I'd say the best thing to go with beers food, but you don't know anything until you've had a haircut and shaven and a beer here and then a cigar so.. Yeah, it's a it's a really cool place. It definitely feels really relaxed and calm. And you guys have some interesting events every so often to you have... well actually, let's first talk about your guys's mug club membership. You just started that this year, everybody has the opportunity to purchase one of these mug club memberships. Let's... could you talk a little bit about that?

Patrick Ahmann 08:30

Sure. Absolutely. Yeah, we last year we started having conversation during COVID. You know COVID was tough on everybody and just trying to figure out how we can generate a few extra dollars here at the barber shop. And we've been I've been to a lot of breweries and a lot of good breweries will have mug clubs. You know here in Dickinsonian our Phat Fish brewery has a mug club and you know, different breweries throughout North Dakota will have them. So we thought what a great idea you know, you don't have to be locked into a certain breweries beer, you know we get a variety of taps that run through, we've seven taps, we're always rotating our beers out. So yeah, we have one... we have a mug that was created by one of the girls that works here in the morning. And she works in the afternoons too, I guess in the evenings, but she created the the medallion that went under mug. It's a $250 one time lifetime membership fee. With that comes the mug which stays here at the barber shop. It's a 22 ounce pour, you pay the 16 ounce price for that. So there's a lot of different benefits a lot of merchandise we've gotten into merchandise a little bit more some shirts stuff, some hats that we have barbershop products in the back. If you're a mug club member here you'll get discounts on that. What else? Birthday beer obviously you if you have your birthday, you come in you get your free pint or your free mug of that beer. Yeah, just it's, it's a cool little thing. And the money that we're using the from the mug club is we're going to help continue to build this business. Try to revamp things up front a little bit. Try to bring in more right now we have seven taps. I think the goal is to bring in anywhere from 10 to 12 taps and maybe just say you know we have a Laughing Sun tap and we've got an Icewind tap and we've got a Dialectic tap. We're going to try to keep those breweries very local. We're going to continue to support our breweries in North Dakota. And so we're going to expand their tap line. Hopefully, that's kind of the plan, might take a little time. But we have 250 mugs total. I think we're probably a little over right around 100 mugs we sold. So for those that are interested for sure we have some mugs still available. But it's been a very good thing for us so far.

Connor Brekke 10:15

Mug clubs are always a great thing. It's always nice to have that beautiful mug and sit down and be like, "yep, I'm a mug club member." And then people look at "what's that?" Oh, and then of course, you're supporting not only this place, but you're supporting the craft brewing industry in North Dakota as well. You guys do some pretty cool things called tap takeovers. You got one coming up in August... Icewind brewing I believe is coming soon. What is a tap takeover?

Patrick Ahmann 10:41

So yeah, we do, we do a lot of events and whatnot. Predominantly, we've done a lot of tap takeover stuff. So essentially, we reach out to the brewery we reach out to Icewind which is out of Mapleton, North Dakota. And they'll come down and they'll bring beers that you know, maybe very few people in Dickinson, they don't distribute their beer here in Dickinson, we try to find those breweries that don't have a lot of... skin in the game here in Dickinson and we bring them in so people can be introduced to them. But typically we have seven taps. So we try to predominately take over those taps. So if there's four or five beers that we'll put on, we have a few people that'll come down, we'll do some trivia stuff. We've been trying to incorporate our local food trucks here for events. We have different benefits for a mug club members. But yeah, we just it's a big, big party essentially. Usually the beer rep or the owner or the brew master will come down. We've had different through masters do tastings with some of our, with our clientele, talk a little about beer, they're always here to answer questions about what what their beer is what they've got going on. So yeah, we've got Icewind brewing out of Mapleton coming up on the 26th, which is very first day of public school here in Dickinson. So that'll be great. And we've got here coming up here July, not a local brewery, but one of the predominant... typically it's one of the top 10 breweries in the United States. We've got Toppling Goliath, that'll be here on July 22. So we're pretty excited about that one too. So yeah, we'll do other events we've got we do an Oktoberfest, we do a cookie and beer pairing. We've done cigar pairings with beers. We've had live music in the back of the barber shop... had stand up comedians. So the little small venue that we have, we try to be very creative with the space and make a very fun venture or a very fun event for other people that come in.

Connor Brekke 12:16

Because I remember the last last event I was at was the Bismarck Brewing Company and you guys had a band in the back and then trivia and then Grub Tub food truck out.

Patrick Ahmann 12:25

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 12:25

So it's a good time. There's... you know, it's hard to beat it really good craft beer that you don't really get to try in the area, different entertainment and food. It's... and your regulars are pretty awesome, too. So...

Patrick Ahmann 12:37

Yeah, we, will have too, they'll bring different things for for our customers. A lot of breweries will bring like stickers and T-shirts and hats and a lot of giveaway stuff that comes along with that too. Which again, for those people that are craft beer junkies, they they enjoy all the all the swag that you can get from these breweries, and they treat us really well around here. So it's always... the events are definitely a highlight of one of the things that we do here.

Connor Brekke 12:59

So being both a barber shop, no loans, you guys do have different hours for each aspect of your guys's business. You want to just kind of let people know what what they are.

Patrick Ahmann 13:08

Yeah, sure, absolutely. So we open at the same time. We... if anybody's not been down here before, right when you walk in the front door, you know, and you're looking for a haircut... bviously the haircut, we have for barbers in the back, they do a fantastic job we're going to take on a couple new barbers hopefully here at the end of the month. But people typically walk in the doors and they don't see that barber shop initially. So the barber shop opens first cuts is at eight o'clock. Typically through appointments, they're on Facebook, you can do that and you can make an appointment online or you can just call us here in the lounge and we can book an appointment for you. But first cut for most of the barbers are at 8, 8:30 in the morning. They run until five o'clock every night. And again, best bet is usually to make an appointment. We do do some walking stuff, but it's it's usually pretty busy. So they're open... so eight to five, the lounge opens right away in the morning. We got good coffee stuff that rolls out. We're looking at adding some food possibly here as we move forward, but the lounge is open every day. During the summertime we're open from 8am until 9pm at nights and depending on when people leave, you know we might be open later than that we don't have you know if we've got 20 people sitting in the lounge we're not going to kick you out if if people are buying beer and having a good time. So but yeah, we've we have eight to... eight to five for the barber shop and then eight to... eight to 9pm for the the lounge.

Connor Brekke 14:18

And let's touch up a little bit on your guys's collaboration or relationship you have with local breweries in the area too.

Patrick Ahmann 14:26

Yeah, that's that's probably one of my favorite parts of my job having the opportunity to meet. You know, actually I met Connor through the Dialectic Brewing. You know, I make some trips out to these breweries that are brand new and don't distribute. You know, they don't go through our local distribution here, whether they're just small and they just, you know, they don't have enough beer to get out there and distribute. So I've essentially just gone out and made phone calls and when I'm in town when I go to Bismarck, I stop in some little breweries out there.

Patrick Ahmann 14:51

We have a great relationship with Dialectica out of Mandan, Dylan and Hannah always treat us very well. Their beers's very good. We've got Mackenzie North Dakota, Black Leg Brewing, which is one of my favorite newer breweries that we started bringing in here. Jay Doan is the the brew master out there, he's he's fantastic. Valley City we've had them in, Brockopp Brewing, Scott Brockopp and his wife, they've, you know, getting beers that you're not going to get in Dickinson you know, they just don't bring beer out here. So again, it's one of those things we're making the trip out to Fargo. I'm stopping in Valley City. I'm stopping in Mapleton, which again is Icewind Brewing. Talking to Rick Brandvols out there. He's one of the guys that does the brewing out there. Atypical, Eric Johnson, probably... I don't want to play favorites, but he's he's done a fantastic job. Those people that really love sour stuff... it's he does a fantastic job. Half Brothers out og Grand Forks, one of the larger breweries in North Dakota, they don't distribute here, but we've built a relationship. We've had a couple different events with them. They bring beer every couple of weeks to us, if we need it. We just started a relationship with Busted Knuckle, which is out of Glasgow, Montana, but they have a brewery here in Williston. So again, I'm from that area. So I reached out to that, that brewery and they were more than happy to give me the down... the essentially the what they have for their beer and brought a couple kegs. And we put those on tap this week.

Patrick Ahmann 16:05

So yeah, it's it's, it's, it's one of my favorite things about this job is just going out and meeting the people that are brewing beer in North Dakota and trying to bring all the smaller breweries into here and then make it our place. I won't say more unique, but it's we have a different tap line than everybody else in town. You know, we support the Laughing Suns, we support the Bismarck Brewings that do distribution, we love them just the same. But some of these breweries that don't do this distribution, they just kind of take care of their people in their own town, we're always trying to get kegs from them. We've had a lot of success. And a lot of people come in and always compliment our tap line. But they always travel when they're in Minot they're looking up Atypical or when they're going to Valley City, they're stopping in supporting all these breweries. So it's, it's been fun. So we're going to continue to seek out those people and and continue to support them.

Connor Brekke 16:47

It's a pretty exciting time to because in the last, you know, three, four or five years, the brew scene in North Dakota has just blown up. And then a lot of these places are only, you know, three ish, four ish years old, and then everybody lost a year last year. So kind of exciting to see how this new North Dakota stuff coming out. And this is one of the few places that I've seen that not just in Dickinson but anywhere really that does this type of work for, you know, it's beer drinking crowd. It's, it's amazing. I love it.

Patrick Ahmann 17:20

As I like I said, I enjoy my teaching job a lot. It's one of my favorite things to do. But I have a pretty good side gig working with different breweries and, you know, giving them this good craft beer in and again, like the crowd that we have that supports us here is you know, there's a lot of questions that come and you know, we have a very knowledgeable staff here about beer and, and you know, cigar stuff. Obviously cigars are very big here too. We have a huge crowd here in Dickinson that enjoys good premium cigars. So we're all learning about that stuff and you know, coffee stuff and yeah, it's just it's it's a very enjoyable place to be.

Connor Brekke 17:51

And then if you guys are curious about this place stuff, you can always check out their Facebook at de Porres house, the bar brewing lounge, and then they do have an untapped they are, they are untapped, and they update what they have on their list. And it's pretty fun ride to watch that and see what pops up because it's all kinds of cool fun stuff. So make sure you check out their Facebook page and then check out on tap because they got a lot of cool stuff.

Patrick Ahmann 18:17

untapped will have if you click on the menus, you find our venue click on menus that also will give you the on deck stuff that we have. So and then we also do have Instagram. I'm not huge on social media, but I know we have Facebook and we have a lot of people to follow us there and Instagram. They do the same but yeah, and then untapped, always untapped. We've we've got a really good following on top.

Connor Brekke 18:38

known in addition to the tap room lounge, you also have a pretty cool beer fridge. It's always stocked with all kinds of different things too, that you can't get around. not talk about that a little bit.

Patrick Ahmann 18:50

Yeah, so we started here. When we first started, we we had storage for like three kegs. That was it. We've had storage for like 1012 kegs. Now when we're looking at putting the walk in cooler. We didn't have cans at all for the most part we carried our domestic stuff. We have a lot of people that still enjoy their domestic their Busch lights or Coors Light carries hams, we carry MC ultra so we have some of that stuff for those people that are still not not necessarily crappier fans but we started adding craft beer stuff and I think our canned sales is like quadrupled in the last couple of years. We bring in toppling Goliath again They'll be here the 20 seconds we've got a huge selection from them half brothers brings us 16 ounce cans of their sour stuff, just fun and funky things things that you wouldn't be able to go to liquor store here in Dickinson and get we carry again ice when cans just a variety of different cans again, that are usually typically four packs and you know if you buy them in the liquor store, they're going to cost you 16 $17 for a four pack and not everybody wants to buy four of them so you can come here have one try it figure out if you like those kinds of beers are cooler also has some things you know there's not everybody's a beer lover So we have some mohito stuff, some Margarita stuff like the Cayman Jack's, we do some meal stuff. We do some flavored meals which is pretty popular with with a lot of our are following and tab, we're just we're always changing up our cooler. We'll get some nights where people won't drink very little on tap and will sell 3040 cans of beer just simply because it's new stuff and they want to try something new. So, yeah, we continue to try to stock that with with fun stuff.

Connor Brekke 20:14

You guys have some shirts to send. We got an actually I'm wearing it right now new design shirts for people who are kind of like me and just love merchandise for beer related things.

Patrick Ahmann 20:25

Yeah, yeah, we've just in the last we've had some, when we first started, we sold just limited quantities and we got rid of that stuff. And we decided to put a little more effort into putting out our merchandise. So we have some new shirts in the variety. We've got some women tees, we've got long sleeve tees. We've done some hat stuff. I don't know if we have hats in right now. But I know we've done a lot of hats in the past. Yeah, it's just I'm the same as you I enjoy every time I go to a brewery I go to a beer place I always try to find out if I get a sticker if I can get you know a hat or shirt or something that reminds me that place so we started jumping into that a little bit. We get a rack That's when you walk into the place has all the different colors of all the same logo. I think shirts start out I think they're 2499 I think is what we charge there might be a couple of other racks that are 1999. But for the most part, anywhere from that 1999 to 2499 range,

Connor Brekke 21:13

cigars, beer and haircuts all my This place is it's great. I just love coming in and trying different craft beers and getting a couple haircuts in the shave here. It's a great place. So if you guys in the Dickinson, North Dakota area are interested in the craft brew scene, you know, just want to try something different. I would highly, highly, highly suggest coming down to divorce House of Barbering and lounge here in Dickinson. Patrick, thank you so much for being on the show. was great having you.

Patrick Ahmann 21:45

Yeah, absolutely. It was it was fun. I glad that we had a chance to talk about this place. It's been it's been awesome.

Connor Brekke 21:51

So for you guys at home, make sure you come in and pay him a visit. So until next time, cheers.

Connor Brekke 21:59

The O,bibulous is made possible with Castos giving creators the tools to connect with their audience and community. The music is courteous of Pond5. With over 25 million royalty free stock videos, music, photos, and sound effects, there's something for every creator. For the latest updates, videos, photos and web links to our guests, please consider checking out our Facebook page, The Ombibulous Podcast. I'd like to thank Patrick for the use of DePorres House of Barbering and Lounge for making this episode possible. And of course a big thank you to all our listeners. Thank you, for all of your support. Until next time, cheers.

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On this episode, we travel across the pond to eplore a Korean drink called Soju. Lean some history, serving techniques, and how it's made. Cheers!

Soju

SPEAKERS

Connor Brekke, Marty Lee

Connor Brekke 00:09

Hello everyone and welcome back to The Ombibulous, a show where we discuss a variety of topics about alcohol. From beer styles, the brewing process, distillation in spirits and even liquor laws, there's a fascinating world to discover. Joining me today is Marty Lee of Noodlezip in downtown Bismarck, North Dakota. On today's show, we talked about soju. I'm your host, Connor Brekke. Let's all raise a glass to, The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:45

Alright everybody, welcome back to the show. And it is my pleasure to introduce Mr. Marty Lee, owner of Noodlezip in Bismarck, North Dakota, thank you so much for joining the show with me appreciate it.

Marty Lee 00:57

I really appreciate the opportunity. Thank you very much for having me here, Connor.

Connor Brekke 01:01

And we're gonna have a great time today because we have a new drink to talk about. It's, it's Korean drink called "soju."

Marty Lee 01:09

That's right.

Connor Brekke 01:09

It's very delicious. It's got a very good characteristic, good flavor. It's something that I'd like to kind of bring to the area.. more knowledge of because.... I don't really know where else you get it. To be honest with you, everybody knows sake but right, this is something a little more special to us. So I guess let's kick off with what is soju in short?

Marty Lee 01:31

Okay, so the short version of short soju just basically a distilled liquor. A pure, you know, tasteless, scentless, with a little bit of flavoring. So off sweet. But Yep, it is a traditional affordable drinks that you can get in Korea.

Connor Brekke 01:53

Soju the name actually refers to like, how it's made kind of as far as...

Marty Lee 01:59

Oight traditionally. "So" in Chinese character, or, or in old Korean means "burning."

Connor Brekke 02:05

And that has to do with basically the heat of distillation if I'm not...

Marty Lee 02:09

Right. It's a process.. it's the process of distilled grains, usually rice, that's what we have most abundance from the history of Korea, rice, barley. You put it all together, let it ferment. You make it first, you know, the base liquor which is Makgeolli or, or sake, or clear liquor, and then you put that into a big pot of... boiling clay pot... and then you just distill it, distill iy until you have it and you have this dew. Alcohol has a little less boiling point than the water itself. So, it's just you know, all the vapors collected altogether, and then you put it into one little jar. And there you go. It's.. you have your traditional soju.

Connor Brekke 02:54

Soju has an interesting history. It goes back to like, if I'm not mistaken, like the 13th century or so...

Marty Lee 03:01

That's right.

Connor Brekke 03:02

Goryeo?

Marty Lee 03:03

Goryeo.

Connor Brekke 03:03

Goryeo (gor-ey-o)

Marty Lee 03:05

The funny thing is Goryeo is the the country where you know where they pronounced Korea, now because before Goryeo, they didn't have the import and export but with the Arabs, they started calling Korea, Korea, Korea, and then it became Ko-re-a.

Connor Brekke 03:21

Oh, the word just kind of twisted and twisted and then okay. Evolution of a language right there.

Marty Lee 03:28

So it's a it's a... good soju was in exist... existed before 13th century. It came with the Mongolian army where they have Yuan Dynasty, its China era, and they had a huge army and they conquered from Arabia, to China, to Goryeo, which is the Korea... and they brought this distillery style of alcohol from Arabs, Persia that, Iran, through the Silk Road they came up with a better way to preserve alcohol. Because Mongolians more more used to drinking fermented instead of distilled because they didn't have the technology to distill the alcohol process that time. So they brought... the when they conquer the Arabs they see this technology they would like to, you know, put it together and you know... they love alcohol in general. Mongolian army they, consume a lot of alcohol and they're known for it because they do a strong hard fight.

Connor Brekke 04:35

Yeah, those guys were... the....

Marty Lee 04:37

Right... we all know the Mongolians, the barbarians.

Connor Brekke 04:41

The barbarians, alcohol just makes sense in that aspect.

Marty Lee 04:45

And you know, Korea didn't have it any distill, until the Mongolians a brought in in at three places at Kaesong, and also Andong, and also Jeju Island. Three military spots where they set up their their bases... their fortress to go to Japan. Jeju, for instance, and Andong for instance, they built the army base there. And then when they built the army basis, one thing they needed to... is having alcohol with them.

Connor Brekke 05:19

Of course. Definitely. Speaking of alcohol, for my research is traditionally the alcohol content was a little higher until prohibition, I guess, in the modern sense, right?

Connor Brekke 05:35

Alcohol was mandated to be lower. And then it's kind of going through a revival stage or has gone.

Marty Lee 05:35

Right.

Marty Lee 05:41

Right. It's traditional, alcohol volume, volume was anywhere from 40 to 30%. Because it's pure distilled, and then when you distilled... traditional way of distilling soju is not a continuous, it's only once. So when you, you know, put the alcohol once it gives you somewhere in the 45% to 30% range, and then they just kept it in the, in the glass bottle and let it ferment, let it age it, I would say. So the yield on these liquors are 10 to 20% compared to what you put it into it. So it's traditionally a drinks for very, very higher royal classes. Luxury people, kings and royal families can afford these drinks because in Korea, you can't even eat rice at your, at your table at your dinner. You know what if you are wealthy enough to put the... burn those rice and turn them into wine, and then you have to burn those wine to make the soju. So it's quite a process and you know, a lot of resources, labors and money. So... yes, it is very traditional, but it wasn't really famous until 1900.. that soju got really settled down to normal people.

Connor Brekke 07:02

So with the rise of soju now, in modern popularity, are there any specific things a person should know when serving and drinking it or serving and receiving it? I know there's some kind of traditions being with like, older people versus younger people, and guests versus not guests and...

Marty Lee 07:20

Right

Connor Brekke 07:21

...different things.

Marty Lee 07:22

Korean way drinking, they call it, chuto, not just necessarily in soju but it goes to all alcohol, beer, you know, spirits wines. But traditionally, you have to pour what two hands if you're younger. And the receiver, if you're older, or if you know this person, then you can just receive it with one hand. But if you are definitely younger, serving to elder or older or you know the person you never seen it before, it's a proper etiquette to use two hands to pour that soju and only to the 70% to th,e to the little shotglass they give you when you go to eat drink and soju. Used to be 90% but 70% is where everybody go now. So you don't get over drinking and you keep pouring to build this connections with it. When you keep pouring back and forth you take a shot if you put it, put it to full you get drunk too fast.

Connor Brekke 08:19

Right.

Marty Lee 08:19

You don't have this social time. So but.. by pouring 70% and it's just perfect match for that shot glass and then you just keep pouring and having fun all night.

Connor Brekke 08:30

Because this is supposed to be a gathering and an exchange. Everyone's supposed to be engaged in conversation everything. You can't... yeah, like you said you can't do it if you're smashed out of your mind.

Marty Lee 08:40

Right right

Connor Brekke 08:41

Well, maybe you could.

Marty Lee 08:42

Right.

Connor Brekke 08:42

To each their own, no judgment there.

Marty Lee 08:44

Right right.

Connor Brekke 08:45

Um, soju for the most part is serve straight. I know there's some different types of ways straight drink it.

Marty Lee 08:51

Straight, cold, yep.

Connor Brekke 08:53

Like the... oh, there's kind of a version of a sake bomb I think.

Marty Lee 08:57

That's right. And mixed drink in Korean called poktanju. Poktanju means bombs. So it's a direct translation when at Itaewon when the, when the, when the foreigners and the armys coming up and they drink this bombs, right? Whiskey bombs, boilers, and then it just transferred directly into the Korean culture and started up as poktanju. Original poktanju is whiskey and beer. And in the 90s and then it got popular and then you know, whiskies and other foreign spirits are quite expensive. In Korea still in the early 90s and late 80s they were not as rich or wealthy as it used to be. So you know, working class people started in the mixing soju and the maekju together, which is beer, and then they call them somaek. Because it's soju and the maekju together usually... your ratios very, vary to person to person, to family to family and your drinking style. Some people mix half and half, some people mix just a shot of soju and and full glass of beer. So that's how you can easily consume alcohol without feeling all the harshness of the soju in any drinks, well with the beer too, so it's gotten really really popular and you can find a soulmate everywhere every corner of Korean bars nowadays.

Connor Brekke 10:26

I'm yet to actually try that particular version. I did visit Korea and while I did have soju and I do remember the, you know, my my host doing the serving with me and everything. So that was... that was a great experience.

Marty Lee 10:40

Right?

Connor Brekke 10:43

For some reason the the beer, soju, and chicken wings spot we did sticks out really well.

Marty Lee 10:49

Beers a little too light, soju a little too strong, and then chicken is greasy so it cuts down perfect.

Connor Brekke 10:55

And we were watching the Olympics too on the big screen TV. So that was pretty uh...

Marty Lee 11:00

Good times?

Connor Brekke 11:01

Good times. Like currently, soju's picking up again. The brand Jinro?

Marty Lee 11:09

Jinro, yep.

Connor Brekke 11:10

I know. That's the kind you guys have here. And it's really good. Is there anything about that particular brand... why they why it's that brand? Or is there anything special? Or is that just the kind of group... that just got it right?

Marty Lee 11:26

I would say they're the pioneer of the soju market. In the early 60s, they changed... they... it was something called different and owned by a family. And then a big group of people coming in and they... when they transfer the, you know... company work, they changed name to Jinro in 1966. They were fighting against one company called a Muhak and Samhak but those were companies were very small distillery, they didn't have the modern technique. They didn't have a modern distillery tanks, they didn't have, you know, it was more like a home brewed and a bigger scale. But Jinro came out with this modern technology. They've seen it from other countries like Japan's and China's and, or, you know, other western country that has more, you know, modern way of technique. And so they were able to process just not by a single bottle, they were able to produce 10s and 1000s of bottles a day. So the number of the quantity is distribution, it's just couldn't go against with the other company. So from 1970... it was a solid, rock solid company from now on until, you know, failure of Jinro's, you know, CEOs and he was doing other things with the construction and the the wholesale market that his family wasn't doing. So when Hite, another big giant beer company, consorted Jinro in... back in early 2000s, they become a mega, mega company. Because you meet this number one selling Korean soju company plus number one selling beer company in Korea, meet together, back when they just got together, it was only 50% of market as of 2019 they got they own 67% of market share the whole soju globally and Korea. So they are just, you know, I think they know how to put the flavoring right. And because of Jinro, famous Jinro there was successed from 70s it was kind of a automatic winning for them. It's more like a monopoly. Yeah, there's no competitors. Their prices always good flavors always not change since 70s. It's the same taste that everybody had it. So yeah, they're just champion and you know, soldiers number one selling a spirit or liquor they claim by Jinro because one average person in Korea, a man, an adult consumed 84 bottles of soju in a year.

Connor Brekke 14:08

That's, impressive.

Marty Lee 14:09

That's an average, that's an average. So you'll have a person who doesn't drink at all. And you'll have a person drink three or four times more than that. So of course it's number one selling, but the consumption rate and Korea itself is just billions of a bottle. Because it's cheap, readily available, it's an all street corner... you can get it you know, soju. Of course it is imported here, so it's expensive. But in Korea, it's $2 a bottle. It's readily available.

Connor Brekke 14:41

Well the thing about soju and in my personal opinion, I look at the alcohol content, the ABV, and it's higher than... you know, beer... higher than a lot of things. But, then you drink it. And for me, it's kind of like juice. Like it..

Marty Lee 14:58

It is.

Connor Brekke 14:58

...doesn't burn. It doesn't really hit me you... by the time you're done with your first bottle, your second... then, then it's like, "okay...

Connor Brekke 15:00

Right.

Connor Brekke 15:03

"...it's time to slow down." It doesn't like have that whiskey kick or anything that... which I really like, I do enjoy the smoothness and you can taste the fruit, you can like taste it, instead of just right one sensation of burning.

Marty Lee 15:23

Right, that's the good part of the modern soju. Because when they buy those pure spirit and 95%, modern, soju are diluted soju... versus traditionally it's distilled. So you buy this 95% pure ethanol, and then you mix with the flavorings, the other chemicals, and then it becomes 25% soju. But trends are going lower and lower. Because they think the soju is more like, I don't know, a drink or soda, I guess. And nowadays, when you go to company lunch, the the culture was never drinking involved in it during the lunchtime, but they're now coming well with soju that has 15, 16% alcohol. Just a slightly higher than wines and sake. So it's easily drinkable, while you're... just you know, having a lunch or having a dinner. And you know, by putting that to lower than 15%... 15% I mean, you're able to export it as a wine, fortified wine, instead of putting it on a spirit category. So you're having more access to everywhere in the world, they you know, they prohibit the, the strong alcohol or, you know, whether it's, you know, Middle East and Muslim country or you know, somewhere else that have stricter law. But by doing this, they can have more positions in global selling. So they're coming up with similar... like a... like a Coke Zero, they have a same similar taste, but they're coming down with the more calories. So same concept goes in here. They make it a little, they keep the flavor and they keep the pure it is and then put the alcohol content little lower so they can have more access to everywhere in the world.

Connor Brekke 17:11

Right, more marketing, more...

Marty Lee 17:13

More marketing. Yep. It's a it's a way of they expanding their own business.

Connor Brekke 17:18

Now, as far as anybody who lives in the Bismarck, Mandan, North Dakota area... I haven't really been like shopping in a while, but I do know that Williquors has a few bottles. Other than that....... I don't know where?

Marty Lee 17:36

Ah, no. I don't think I have seen soju anywhere else other than Williquors. But Williquours, a couple of years ago, they only had a one or two type. Now they have several they have flavors. They had the flavored ones, the grape ones, the you know, strawberry ones, and also they have the traditional 24 strong version, the original version of general. So it's coming in, you know, I think the BTS has to do with a lot of it. You know, the K-dramas and K-pop cultures? I mean, again, think about it k drama was you know, almost nothing it just for shows for, for Koreans for centuries. You know, 90s in 2000. But look at where, you know, BTS stands out there. Yeah, and then that kind of works out as self promotion for Korean cultures to be able to go you know, globally, and they're doing an awesome job at it.

Connor Brekke 18:33

And to segue on that a little further, Netflix...

Marty Lee 18:36

Right? And Netflix.

Connor Brekke 18:38

...has a lot of Korean shows now, which are great because, you can check some of this stuff out.

Marty Lee 18:43

And and I'm not gonna lie... when you watch those Netflix show half the time they drinking soju.

Connor Brekke 18:48

Right.

Marty Lee 18:48

Not kidding. So it... that's how general it is, you know, that's it's like drinking a beer after work or you know, stop buying a bar, have a have a have a bar, I have a just glass of beer. For Koreans, after those hard,... Koreans are hardworking people, they wake up early, they, you know, they put their you know, 200% every single day, at the end of the day, they feel tired, and they want to talk about what's happening at their job today. So they gather and they just stop by, they don't have a tons of money. Soju's cheap and gather in every single day. Drink, talk, lots of laughter.

Connor Brekke 19:31

That's how you unwind from...

Marty Lee 19:32

That's right.

Connor Brekke 19:33

Everybody has a ritual of some, some kind.

Marty Lee 19:36

Right. Right. But then, you know, the modern sojus are definitely different than distilled the traditional version of it is, which is, you know, distilled. And, you know, that's what Mongolian has everywhere in Japan, China and yeah. In the early 90s prohibition, and the war, Korean War changed a lot. scenery of soju too. After the 50s, you know, we don't even have rice to feed our people after the war very very poor. We are the one of the poorest country has become after Korean War so they stopped making alcohol with the grains period. The government set a law and then they brought... and that brought... the distilled, the traditional soju business down by 3% from 100% to 3%. That's how many distillery went out of bankruptcy or they couldn't do the business. They just disappeared from our culture. Luckily, you know, the rise of new Korean cultures and you know, traditions... they're trying to bring back the traditional way, brewing soju so Andong soju which is well known for traditional Korean soju. And Jeju you and you know, Hwayo, and Il-poom Jinro, Jinro came up with this distilled new soju for for the market, you know, they're anywhere from 10, 15 to $30 a bottle. Compared to $2? Yes, they are a lot more expensive. But, you know, the way the process of how they make it the effort, the energy the time, $15 is well worth the money. And it just tastes like a light rum like gin, I would say it's pure distilled rice, and nothing else.

Connor Brekke 21:32

Simple.

Marty Lee 21:33

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 21:33

It's delicious.

Marty Lee 21:34

And delicious. So it gives you less hangover too.

Connor Brekke 21:37

Yeah. It's good, right? Drink more. Alright guys, well, we were educated with soju we learned history, we learned some pouring methods and how to make it... all kinds of really good stuff. So if you're curious about soju, at the moment... you have to go to Williquors and try and find a bottle, or maybe order online. But you have an opportunity to get some to go food from noodle zip. That way, you can pair it with your soju. Because nothing goes better with alcohol than food... and especially those delicious takeout options.

Marty Lee 22:16

Well thank you Connor for having me for a wonderful podcast session. I would, you know, recommend our definitely delicious food with the to go. And currently we're only doing takeout so we cannot offer soju in dining in. But in near future yes, definitely. We will have some soju pair with great food that we offer. But yeah, please check us out at Facebook and you know order online. Now we are doing Door Dash as well. So pick a few bottles of soju. There's a lots of different flavors... grapefruit and you know strawberries is my favorite.

Connor Brekke 22:50

Yeah, it's my favorite.

Marty Lee 22:50

As well as grape. So pick up some bottle of soju at Williquors and pick up some food at Noodlezip and have a great dinner at the table. You know, cheers and chat. Thank you Connor for having me today.

Connor Brekke 23:02

It was a pleasure. I can't wait to collaborate more with you. We have we, have more collaborations coming up definitely.

Marty Lee 23:04

Thank you very much.

Connor Brekke 23:10

Well until next time, geonbae!

Marty Lee 23:11

Geonbae!

Connor Brekke 23:14

The Ombibulous is made possible with Castos giving creators the tourists connect with their audience and community. Music is courteous Pond5. With over 25 million royalty free stock videos, music, photos, and sound effects. there's something for every creator. Today's episode was recorded at Noodlezip in downtown Bismarck, North Dakota. I'd like to thank Marty Lee for the use of his restaurant to make this episode possible. And of course a big thank you to all our listeners. Thank you, for all of your support. Until next time, cheers

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On part 2 of the IPA special we discuss various hop varieties, mostly the ones important to brewing IPA style beers.

Hops

SPEAKERS

Connor Brekke, Dylan Schafer

Connor Brekke 00:07

Hello, everyone and welcome back to The Ombibulous a show where we discuss a variety of topics regarding alcohol. From specific beer styles, distillation, the brewing process, wine, spirits, and even a history of certain liquor laws, there's a fascinating world to explore. On today's episode, we kick off part two of our IPA special where we discuss various types of hops. Joining me today is Dylan Schafer, owner of Dialectic Brewing Company here in Mandan, North Dakota. I'm your host, Connor Brekke. Let's all raise a glass to, The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:49

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the show. I'm joined once again with Mr. Dylan Schafer of Dialectic here in Mandan. And we're going to continue our IPA special with a little discussion about hops. All about hops today.

Dylan Schafer 01:04

Yeah, in case you guys didn't know that's that really is what makes an IPA and IPA is the hops.

Connor Brekke 01:10

Would you say that it makes people... hoppy?

Dylan Schafer 01:17

It sure makes me hoppy so... But yeah, there, those hops are definitely kind of the critical component of the IPA style. Generally speaking, when you're looking at beer styles, you're going to have some beers that are more, what we call "malt forward." So getting more of their flavor characteristics from the grain itself. Then you're going to have beers that are going to be more "hop forward," where you're getting more of the flavor profile from the particular hop varieties that we're using. And for everyone who's really new to the, to the beer scene, or to the brewing at all... hops are just the the herb or the flower that gives beer it's bitterness to balance out the sweetness of the malt in there. We do also have beers that are going to have dominant flavor characteristics coming from other additives, lactose, fruit, things like that. But generally speaking, you are going to see a beer that is either malt forward or hop forward. And IPAs are kind of the quintessential hop forward beer, for sure. And there's just a huge, kind of wide variety of different characteristics you can get from those hops, depending on what particular strain of hops you're using. So that being said, I will, I'll make a note that all hops are not created equal. Well, I love the flavor profile of just about every hop variety I've ever brewed with. They're very, very, very different depending on the strain you get. And there's... oh man, dozens, if not hundreds of unique hop strains that are out on the market today. And every single year, the industry is coming out with new experimental varieties of hops. And that definitely seems to be a trend nowadays is to get ahold of those new experimental ones and start brewing with them as soon as you possibly can.

Connor Brekke 03:10

And it sounds like you have a new distributor, and you have, sounds like, some better access to some of this stuff now.

Dylan Schafer 03:19

Absolutely. So up until this this last year... here at Dialectic, we've been buying all of our hops as what we call" spot hops." Which is basically you look over, you know, go to a company, look over what hops they have available, pick and choose what you want. And whatever they have available, they'll ship out to you. Most of the larger breweries... honestly, most breweries you see that are anywhere over seven barrels are going to typically have a hop contract. So they have a contract with a farm or a distributor. And they're guaranteed to get "X" amount of hops and "X" amount of varieties. And those contracts are really one of the only ways that you can secure some of these high demand varietals. So with my contract this year, things like the Mosaic hops I wasn't able to get ahold of for like two years. Let's see... the Citra is another one I couldn't get ahold... since we opened, I haven't been able to find Citra on spot hops. Simcoe. And a lot of these experimental varieties that you'll typically see with a letter and... or a letter and number code for the experimental variety before it actually gets its name. So like Mosaic hops was an "HBC," followed by three numbers was its code for the longest time before it kind of became widely accepted, and it got given a name in the market. So having that contract is really really nice because I can get a consistent supply of hops because it is always a bummer when you go and brew a recipe and does I have a recipe for an IPA around a particular hop that you have on hand at the time. And then when you go to reorder hops, you can't get a hold of that hop. And that recipe kind of goes... out the window. And it's, again, with the difference in hop varieties... if the substitute in a different hopper that it's gonna be a noticeably different beer most of the time. There are some general substitutions that you can do. But most of the time, you'll notice if you change up the hop varietal.

Connor Brekke 05:28

It's always nice to have consistency. Especially when you have you know, a business like this where it's nice to make your style and then keep it consistent instead of swinging all over the place with different flavor profiles for different quality of ingredients.

Dylan Schafer 05:43

Absolutely, and it's nice to you know, I love brewing new styles, but when I brew an IPA that that sells like hotcakes, and it just flies out of the faucet and it's... the batch is gone right away. It's a bummer when you have to you know, I love writing a new recipe... but if I know that recipe sells I just assume brew that recipe again instead of having to change everything up.

Connor Brekke 06:04

Now as far as IPA hops go, is there any particular like characteristic that you want to look for in hops for IPAs? I mean, I imagine it's like anything, let's just grapes where you have to have certain soil conditions, weather conditions, all this stuff to make a particular grape for a particular wine. I imagine hops are somewhat similar?

Dylan Schafer 06:27

Absolutely. And one thing of note is that a vast majority of the hops that are commercially used in the United States are grown in the Yakima Valley out west. So as far as soil, climate, things like that, that kind of is the the primo hop drawing spot is out in the Yakima Valley. So a lot of our stuff is coming from there. Then generally speaking, hops do have a couple different qualities that when brewing an IPA, you want to pay attention to these different qualities. So a big one being it's alpha acid content. So the alpha acids in that hop, which is simply an amino acid, the alpha acids, and the hop variety is what's going to give the beer its bitterness. So a higher alpha acid hop is going to contribute more bitterness. So typically, when we're brewing a West Coast IPA where we're looking for that 75 to 100, IBUs... it only makes sense to target some higher alpha acid hops. So, for comparison's sake, we're looking at alpha acid ranges, you know, anywhere from nine and a half, I've seen them all the way up to almost 15% alpha acid. So those are going to be considered a high alpha acid bittering hop as we like to call them. For your late addition, hops, your alpha acids are not going to matter as much, because you're not necessarily looking to extract bitterness, you're looking for more flavor qualities. And so you can usually when you're purchasing hops, you can get all the breakdown of the different essential oils that are in hops, because those essential oils are what's going to give you your flavor components, depending on what types of oils are in that hop and what concentrations. And I know I mentioned kind of bittering hops and late addition hops. That's another thing that's kind of an important distinction when brewing an IPA. So when brewing an IPA, you're going to typically be adding hops throughout the entirety of the boil of the beer. But once all the grain is mashed, and we got our liquid transferred over to the boil kettle, is when we start adding hops, Any hops that are added early on in the boil, so say we're doing a 60 minute boil, which is pretty common for me on a lot of my IPAs. Any of the hops that are added in that first kind of half hour of that boil are going to contribute some significant bitterness. The longer you boil them, the more bitterness you get out of them. And then you're late addition, hops are going to be the hops that are kind of added in the last 10 minutes of the boil. And those are going to contribute very little bitterness, but they're going to give you all your flavor and aroma qualities in there. So in general, we're looking for kind of high alpha acid hops to do the bittering job. And then we can use high alpha acid hops for the late addition depending on what their flavor qualities are. Or we can use lower alpha acid hops for the late addition. Again, just targeting specific flavor qualities that we're looking for in a recipe.

Connor Brekke 09:31

See, folks there's a lot more to brewing than just throwing something in a tub. There's a lot of chemistry involved.

Dylan Schafer 09:37

There is yeah, and I always say that's my favorite thing about brewing beer is it's like the perfect perfect balance of art and craft and then hard science as well because I like both of them.

Connor Brekke 09:47

You get to drink your product when you're done.

Dylan Schafer 09:50

That's always a nice perk too.

Connor Brekke 09:52

So going back to the addition of hops you know, be during the boil after the boil... I had a Interesting style in the cities. couple years back, they call it a "zero IPA." Is there anything you could tell us about that one? I know it has to something to do with what we're just talking about.

Dylan Schafer 10:11

Yeah, absolutely. So the the zero IPA... and I've actually brewed a version of zero IPA here as well. And the idea is you're going to brew an IPA that has zero IBUs. So again, the IBUs is the International Bitterness Units. And that's going to be a measurement of how much bitterness is in the beer coming from the hops. That's not to say a beer with zero IBUs has no bitterness at all, because some grains will add some bitterness and stuff like that as well. So, generally speaking though, IBU is going to be your range of how much bitterness from hops is in the beer. And a "zero IPA" is going to have a target of zero IBUs. And basically how you achieve that is, essentially by not boiling any of the hops. When you boil the hops, those alpha acids are extracted into the solution, and that gives you bitterness. If you don't boil the hops, you're going to just get all the flavor and aroma components without the bitterness. So what most people do, you'll occasionally see on zero IPAs, where folks do some what we call "first round mash hopping." And so in that process, instead of doing just the grain in the mash ton, where we steep everything, you'll also add some hops in with the barley as you steep everything, usually right around 150 degrees. The temperatures aren't high enough to extract the alpha acids out of the hops, but you'll pull out some of those essential oils for flavor and aroma. The most common way to get all the hot flavor and aroma without bitterness, however, is from what we call dry hopping. And dry hopping is just simply adding hops to beer after the boil phase, and typically after fermentation as well. Then once the beers done boiling, is cooled down to fermentation temperatures, and in the fermenter, than adding hops in there. Again, it's cool enough, so you're not extracting any alpha acids. You're just pulling out those essential oils to give you your flavor and aroma components. And it is a fun style because, you know, a lot of folks who are turned off by IPAs, I found are typically turned off by the bitterness of IPAs. And a zero IPA is a great way to understand what kind of flavors and aromas you get out of hops without getting all that bitterness that turns people away.

Connor Brekke 12:36

I think that's what drew me to that style. Because you guys were only open, I think about maybe a year. And then I took a trip to the cities... and I fell in this style and was like, "Oh, I don't know what this is. But I have to try it because I got to try different things." It's like, "Oh, this is pretty good." I don't get hit with that bitterness. So that would explain a lot... why it was not bitter.

Dylan Schafer 12:59

Yeah. And you actually brought me some of that. Some zero IPA back and after drinking it. I was... that gave me some inspiration to kind of brew one of our own zero IBU IPAs here at Dialectic too.

Connor Brekke 13:12

Yeah, I tried to be sometimes the beer ambassador. Sometimes if I can bring him back different styles. It's just fun, you know, the more cross tasting and collaboration, it just brings new ideas to the table, and it brings new things for the community.

Dylan Schafer 13:29

Oh, yes. And the craft beer industry is exactly that. It's more of a community than it is an industry. So we love collaborating with other brewers and get an input from other folks. And anywhere you can find inspiration from this kind of free game. And I love that about this craft beer community.

Connor Brekke 13:49

And you've, speaking of the community, you had a style that you made called the Hop Doctor. And that has an interesting story behind how you acquired it and how you created it.

Dylan Schafer 14:02

Yeah, and that was... so in general, that was a fun style. Because I went with a little bit more traditional approach so that so I will say this, the Hop Doctor was a pale ale versus an India Pale Ale that we were talking about previously. And the Pale Ale again is going to be a slightly less hoppy version and lower alcohol version of the India Pale Ale. And so our hop doctor was actually an English Pale Ale, so fermented out with English yeast, and which gives it its own unique characteristic. And then for hop varietals, we actually used a bunch of locally grown hops that were grown right here in Bismarck Mandan. There's a local doctor at the hospital who hobby grows hops, he doesn't brew with them or anything, but he just likes growing them. And he grows a pretty significant amount of them. So we did a full seven barrel batch of beer with all his hops, we did have to spend... oh man, I think it was probably five or six days of trimming hops because we got them fresh off the vine and had to trim them all by hand. And we would recruit some customers to help us do that too. But... so we got to brew a beer that truly had all local hops from it. And that was a fun beer too, because all of the grain for that beer also all was grown in North Dakota, malted in North Dakota never left the state. So it was a really fun kind of all North Dakota beer to brew. And again, English Pale Ale, so a little less hoppy, a little less bitter. But you definitely get a unique characteristic from the different growing conditions of those hops. And we just kind of had a mixed bag of different varieties of hops that he didn't even really know for sure what he was growing. So we figured we'd throw it in a recipe and see what we could do with it.

Connor Brekke 15:59

It was a pretty good hit to if I recall?

Dylan Schafer 16:02

Yeah, we burned through quite a bit of it. And we did do one rendition of it, where we pulled some into a separate fermenter for secondary fermentation, and added a bunch of mango puree to it. And that one was a big hit as well. After drinking the beer for a little while, we just kind of thought that mango would be a very good complementary flavor in that beer and decided to fruit a portion of the batch and both ways it went over quite well.

Connor Brekke 16:30

Community at its best there. Got a group made beer, and a group to enjoy the beer with.

Dylan Schafer 16:36

Absolutely. And the local doctor got a few free pints out of the deal too.

Connor Brekke 16:41

Of course. Why not?

Dylan Schafer 16:43

And kind of speaking of, Connor, you touched on the idea of having different hop varietals and acquiring them from different locations. And we, we do see, especially in the American hop scene right now, that there has become just this huge variety of different flavor potential out there, depending on where the hop is grown, and what particular strain was grown. So in the Hop Doctor, we used kind of a mixed bag of hops that we didn't even know what the strain was. So we weren't 100% sure what the flavor profile of that beer was, or even how bitter it would be because we didn't know it's alpha acid content, or any of its essential oil content. And that, you know, you definitely get a unique character, even if they were traditional Cascade hops grown here in North Dakota, versus Cascade hops grown out west in the Yakima Valley, you'd get a just very, very different flavor profile out of that hop.

Connor Brekke 17:41

And that's kind of exciting too, because you make a small test batch, and then you go, "Oh, I could do this with it." Or.... I could... instead of having like, a set, "okay, I'm going to do this." Now you can get kind of creative with whatever the flavor profile is, whenever it pops out, you're like, "Oh,cool."

Connor Brekke 17:58

Absolutely. And even when we brewed, so our Guava Queen, our guava IPA, when we brewed that we specifically ordered hops, we knew we wanted to brew a guava beer. And we had a customer recommend that it was a guava IPA. And so we started digging around and kind of shopping for the right hop varietal that would give all the necessary essential oils to kind of give us a tropical fruity characteristic, with just a hint of kind of spicy floral ness to balance out the sweetness of it. So I mean, when it comes to picking hops, you can kind of really shop around and just read from the different farms and from the different suppliers, the specs on the hops, and you can really just pick and choose and craft some really unique characteristics out of a different hop varietals.

Connor Brekke 18:47

There's a big hop world out there, and guys are doing a good job of exploring it.

Dylan Schafer 18:52

There is, and we've dealt primarily with US grown hops, and US varietals of hops. I have imported some German hops and some of your European hops in general. And those European hops even have a very, very different character than your American ones, you know? Typically, and this is again, very broadly speaking, a lot of your American hops you're going to see more of the piney characteristics, the fruity characteristics, citrus, tropical fruit, things like that. And then when you start dabbling into your European hops, you're definitely going to find a little bit more of kind of the spiciness, the herbal characters, the floral characters and you know some of that is growing conditions but some of it is also just different varietals that have always been growing in those areas.

Connor Brekke 19:45

So going back on hop varieties and growing locations, I couldn't help but think that "these things can grow in North Dakota?" That must mean they are pretty hardy and they can grow almost anywhere?

Dylan Schafer 19:56

And that is very true. They are a ridiculously resilient plant. You know, they can be prone to some pests and things like that. But for the most part, they're super hardy and super resilient. And you can find them growing in just about any region of this country and any other country to be honest with you. The matter of fact, hops are native and just about anywhere you can think of in the world. I mean, just right here in North Dakota, there's a couple local lakes that just have wild hops growing all around the lake. And I'm willing to bet that wherever you live, you can probably go out somewhere and find wild hops growing out there in nature somewhere, because they are just kind of... they're basically weed to be honest with you. And they're just happened to be a weed that we really like some of their characteristics.

Connor Brekke 20:48

Yep, another green plant that we seem to like.

Dylan Schafer 20:51

Funny how that works.

Connor Brekke 20:53

Alright, guys, I "hop" you learned something today.... I won't do that again. I promise. So yeah, we did a little IPA hop special. guys keep plugging away with the hops. It's been a great adventure here.

Dylan Schafer 21:09

And again, I just want to remind everyone, don't be afraid of the hops. Give them a whirl, you won't be disappointed.

Connor Brekke 21:16

Exactly. You'll turn out like me.

Dylan Schafer 21:20

That can't be a bad thing.

Connor Brekke 21:22

...No comment. But seriously, keep an open mind. Keep trying new beers. Keep it local if you can. So come on down for a pint or two or three, and I will see you next time. Cheers.

Connor Brekke 21:38

The Ombibulous is made possible with Castos, giving creators the tools to connect with their audience and community. The music is courteous of Pond5. With over 25 million royalty free stock videos, music, photos, and sound effects, there's something for every creator. Today's content was recorded here at Dialectic Brewing Company in Mandan, North Dakota. I would like to thank Dylan Schafer for the use of his facility and time to create this episode. And of course, a big thanks to all of our listeners, thank you for all of your support. Until next time, cheers.

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On this very special episode, we have a talk with Dylan Schafer, our friend and fellow brewmaster at Dialectic Brewing Company in Mandan, ND and talk about how he and his buisness came to be.

dialecticbrewingcompany.com

SPEAKERS

Connor Brekke, Dylan Schafer

Connor Brekke 00:12

Hello, everyone and welcome back to The Ombibulous, the show where we discuss a variety of topics regarding alcohol. From specific beers styles, distillation, the brewing process, wine, spirits, and even the history of certain liquor laws. There's a fascinating world to explore. On today's episode, we delve into the origin story of Mandan's very own Dialectic Brewing Company. Joining me today is Dylan Schafer, owner of Bialectic Brewing Company here in Mandan, North Dakota. I'm your host, Connor Brekke. Let's all raise a glass to, The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:56

Welcome back to the show Dylan, always a pleasure to have you. Today, you will be telling us your story, the history of how you and Dialectic Brewing became a thing.

Dylan Schafer 01:08

Yeah, so I'm going to talk today a little bit about Dialectic Brewing Company, kind of our story and how we came to be. It is a story that I can get a little long winded on, but I do think everything I have to say, plays a pretty significant part in what got me to where I am today.

Dylan Schafer 01:27

Um, so I guess I kind of want to start things off by saying... I do not have any formal education in brewing despite going to college for seven and a half years. None of that was for anything related to brewing beer. That being said, I do think my college experience did still have an impact on me opening up Ddialectic Brewing Company. So first off, we do have, apart from me, we do have two other owners. It's me, my wife, Hannah, and then my older brother Jake. So we are very much a family affair here at Dialectic Brewing. And we kind of have our own little niche spots that we do in the business.

Dylan Schafer 02:09

What kind of led us into starting a brewery I guess is back in 2013, I had the opportunity to both me and my wife, we had the opportunity to transfer to the University of Oregon. At the time we were going to undergrad in Minnesota. And with our GPA and everything else like that we had the opportunity to transfer out to the University of Oregon, and get our in state tuition and everything. And we at the time, we were doing a significant amount of moving and exploring and stuff. So we figured we'd take that opportunity and move out there.

Dylan Schafer 02:43

So when I moved out there was kind of my first experience in the craft beer world. And in a couple ways. For one, we moved into the Whitaker neighborhood. And within five blocks of our house, there was probably, I think it was five brewery tap rooms within five blocks of our house. So as far as beer goes, we were surrounded by craft beer. And on top of that, I was working as a DSP, a direct support professional, and one of my clients at the time, one of the local tap rooms employed him to clean up the taproom during off... during kind of off hours, we would come in and wipe tables, put chairs up mop floors, that type of thing. So I got kind of a unique experience assisting him in his job in a local tap room. And I have never had craft beer before that. When Hannah and i had time off work, we would venture around town take a walk and poke into some of these little local breweries. And that's really where I kind of fell in love with the brewing industry in the brewing culture. I got to realize all the different options that were available for beer. I mean, growing up in Mandan, North Dakota before I moved away here, there wasn't anything for craft beer. You know, in my mind, beer was just all your basic domestic beers. So living in Oregon was kind of my my first experience with the craft beer world. I fell in love with the taproom culture and all the different varieties that were available for beer. And so that kind of started my my journey down craft beer. It was after we lived in Oregon for a year, I had been pestering Hannah for quite a while that I wanted to get into brewing beer just as a hobby because I was intrigued by all the variety out there and... so I had pestered her for the better part of a year about getting into brewing beer. And we didn't have a whole lot of money or a whole lot of time and when we wound up moving back to Minnesota for a while, right when we move back she got me some home brewing gear for my birthday.

Dylan Schafer 04:53

And from there on, I kind of dove into that hobby, headfirst. I went in hard on homebrew and beer. And I had a lot of fun with it because I got to see all the experimentation and everything involved. I was back living in Minnesota and home brewing beer, and after about three or four months of home brewing beer, I got my first opportunity to work in more of a professional setting in a brewery. And at the time Junkyard Brewing Company out in Moorhead, Minnesota had just opened up their tap room. They had been operating a brewery prior to this, and they didn't have a tap room. They would do just growler sales on the weekends out of their brew house. And they had just recently opened up a tap room, and I of course was frequenting that tap room anytime I had free time and... talking with one of the owners one night and I had had a few beers and got up to use the bathroom and and Hannah did a little bit of soliciting me. And so she after talking with one of the owners for a while, I came out of the bathroom and Dan had mentioned to me one of the owners. He goes, "Hey, Dylan, Hannah mentioned that you might be looking to get into the beer industry. You want a job?" And I couldn't hardly turn that down. I was super excited about it. I had a couple beers in me. So I of course agreed right on and he invited me to come in on Monday and fill out paperwork and start the job. So...

Connor Brekke 06:21

And that's where the adventure officially began.

Dylan Schafer 06:25

Yeah, that's that's where the the "professional" adventure began. And so I had worked at... I was working at junk yard pretty much for the remainder of my undergraduate degree. I worked mostly doing taproom serving and stuff like that with a little bit of assistant brewer stuff back in the back of house. And it was... it was kind of a sad day when I graduated college and was going to be moving out of Morehead Minnesota. I got accepted to grad school in Ohio, both me and my wife got accepted to the same school with full funding. We kind of decided that we would move out to Ohio and do grad school.

Dylan Schafer 07:03

Again, all my professional education is in sociology... doesn't really apply to beer. But the opportunity of moving to Oregon, going to undergrad in Minnesota, these are all opportunities that I took because I was in college, and they introduced me to some of this craft beer scene in this craft beer culture. Well, Hannah and I were still in Morehead and I was still working at Junkyard, we had talked a little bit about how we kind of like the beer industry and we would prefer to stay working in the beer industry as our careers. But when we got our full funding offer for grad school, we decided that's another opportunity to move and they're paying for us to go to school, so we might as well head out there. So it was a sad day we packed up I left junkyard and we moved out to Bowling Green, Ohio where I was going to grad school.

Dylan Schafer 07:55

And it wasn't, of course, it wasn't too long of us living in Bowling Green and a little local brewery had opened its doors. I want to say opening week was like two weeks after we moved to Ohio. Um, so we popped in there for their kind of big opening celebration, their grand opening and everything and had a few beers. And it was a really, really small place. I think at the time that was a three quarter barrel brew house. So really, they were brewing a little over one keg of beer per batch. And it was a one man show it was just the owner who was doing all of it. And so we hung out and had some beers and got chatting with the owner for a while. And I mentioned that I was a home brewer and talked about his beers and his recipes and the stuff I was working on as a home brewer and he invited me in to kind of brew a test batch of beer kind of "guest brew" a batch of beer on his system. And I took the opportunity because I hadn't really brewed on much other than my homebrew equipment before that. Apart from doing some equipment cleaning and stuff at Junkyard I hadn't done full brew days on commercial equipment, even though it was pretty small commercial equipment. So I took them up on that opportunity and showed up I think it was two days later I showed up to brew a batch of beer. And oddly enough, when we talked about our Helpful Shepherd, our wee heavy, the first batch of beer I brewed at that brewery in Ohio was a wee heavy. I thought that it showcased my brewing abilities quite well. And I brewed that batch of beer with him and he put it on tap and served it. It went over really well with his customer base and we offered me a job to come on as his assistant brewer. And of course I didn't bat an eye and I took that job right away. Despite the fact that my grad school had a stipulation that if I was getting stipend money from the college, I wasn't allowed to have an outside job. But I just kind of ignored that stipulation and took the job anyway.

Connor Brekke 10:02

I'd say that decision worked out perfectly.

Dylan Schafer 10:04

I won't complain about it. Yeah, and so I got, got brewing beer there and working as an assistant grewer...and before too long, I mean a matter of weeks, the owner had kind of wanted to focus a little bit more on the business side of things. So he asked if I would step up and just take over all the brewing and become the head brewer. So that was my, I guess my first full time gig as an assistant brewer and it quickly transitioned to my first full time gig as a... as a head brewer. And with how small the system was there, I brewed a lot. I was brewing three, four or five days a week just to keep the taproom supplied. And we were only open Friday, Saturdays. And there were plenty of Saturdays that we would sell a lot of beer by six o'clock, and "oh, sorry, guys, we're closing at six. Come back. Next weekend, we'll have more be ready." And so over the course of me being there, we had stepped up the system quite a bit. We went from a three quarter barrel brew house to a one and a half barrel brew house. And then from a one and a half barrel brew house to a one and a half barrel brew house with all three barrel fermenters. So we turned them into double brew days. And then before I left, Ohio, we had stepped up to a full dedicated three barrel brew house. So again, not a very big brew house. Here at Dialectic, I'm brewing on a seven barrel. But it was a good experience to get used to that commercial equipment.

Connor Brekke 11:33

Yeah, you got to see it evolve too.

Dylan Schafer 11:35

Exactly you know, learning how to grow and where the right place to spend money and kind of grow into it was a very, very valuable resource. So that had a good contribution and, again, this whole time we were in hot in Ohio, me and my wife, Hannah, were talking bouncing around the idea of opening up our own brewery. And we decided that we really wanted to bring our talent and bring what we had to offer back to our hometown. Both of us were raised here graduated high school here in Mandan, North Dakota. And we figured if we were going to open a business, we wanted to bring a little bit of that culture back to Mandan. So we had... while we were in grad school, when we'd come back to Mandan to visit my parents and stuff we would, we kind of started looking at spaces and just getting an idea of what was out there, what was going to be available for us if we wanted to open up.

Dylan Schafer 12:31

And at that point in time is kind of when we started really developing our business plan on getting a good plan ready to approach investors and things of that nature. So it was, it was actually right before I finished up my master's degree, we had a line on a building the building that we are currently sitting in right now. Um, and we kind of decided it was time to pull the trigger, the business plan was ready to go and start presenting. There was a building kind of sitting here waiting for us, we had, we knew the guy that owned the building, and he was looking forward to us moving in. So we kind of had pulled it off of the market and was just waiting on us. And we figured it was just a good time to pull the trigger. And it was around that time that we were in Ohio, that I had started talking with my older brother about my plans for the business. And he was very, very supportive of it. He had a full time job himself. He is a water quality specialist, all his degrees, his master's certificate, everything is in microbiology. On top of that he's a little more business oriented than I am.

Dylan Schafer 13:46

So he had mentioned that if Hannah and I wanted he'd be willing to jump on board with us and be a business partner as well. We kind of made the agreement that it was going to be kind of me and Hannah running the show. Jake would do some of the behind the scenes work. And he'd helped me anytime I had some chemistry questions that popped up. He's... He's the hard science guy for sure. So we'd started making those plans kind of as a family unit. And when the building was right when the time was right, we loaded all our stuff up and we left Ohio and move back here. And it wasn't long after moving back here... I think we came back here in... it was late November of 2016. When we move back to Mandan here. We'd found the building, we'd negotiated the lease on the building. We had found the appropriate money we needed to get off the ground. We started ordering equipment got all our LLC paperwork up and rolling and all the kind of technical stuff that needed to be done before we can really start work.

Connor Brekke 14:56

All the boring stuff you have to have.

Dylan Schafer 14:58

Yeah, all those permits and... I mean filing for, you can't touch any of your brewing equipment until you have a TTB permit. At the time when I applied for my TTB permit, my federal brewers noticed, they were quoting, it was a nine month wait time on your application. And in order to apply, you had to have an address, you either had to submit a copy of your lease or a deed to the building where the brewery was going to be located. So there was just kind of a lot of timing issues and stuff like that, that we had to get ironed out and finally gotten most of those timing issues ironed out, we got the keys to our building, and we just absolutely tore into it.

Dylan Schafer 15:41

We had about a, I would say it was it, was 11 or 12 months of extensive remodeling. And we got the building to pretty much how you see it now. We're, we're still plugging away on things here and there. And that kind of is what brought us to this point in running the brewery.

Dylan Schafer 16:02

And if you remember back from our first episode that we did, where we talked about our Helpful Shepherd, are wee heavy. That is I had mentioned that that recipe is very, very close to my heart. The second beer I ever home brewed as a home brewer was a Scotch ale. The first one I brewed at Bowling Green Beer Works was the brewery I was at in Ohio. That was the first beer I brewed there was the Scotch ale. And I've kind of just been tweaking and perfecting that recipe since I started home brewing back in 2013, 2014. And it was when we got opened up here and we kind of wanted to get... I wouldn't say a flagship beer because we only brew it once a year, but kind of an iconic beer that we have to offer. We really thought that the wee heavy exhibited my brewing skill very, very well. And it also helped tell our journey in the beer industry. And for that reason the beer got to carry mine and my wife's namesake. So my name is Dylan Schafer, my wife's name is Hannah Hilfer. When we got married, we both hyphenated our name, so it became a big German mouthful of Hilfer Schafer as the last name. And in German Hilfer for translates to "helper" and Schafer directly translates to "shepherd." So we thought that the beer that I think I brew best, and that we all love, we thought it would be a good one to carry our namesake. So it became the "Helpful Shepherd" wee heavy. And again, it was just a really great way to tell our... our beer story in a single beer and in the single name of a beer. And so that that's really what brought us into, into the brewing world. And, you know, there, there's still things that I think sometimes we're in over our head on, but we keep plugging away and keep making it work.

Dylan Schafer 17:59

So you guys sailed right through the unfortunate time during the whole pandemic too.

Dylan Schafer 18:04

And I'm so thankful for our customer base for that. I know there's folks that did not fare as well as we did during the pandemic. And I think there's a couple things to thank for that. When we first opened, we had an agreement that we wouldn't be paying ourselves for three years whether the business was profitable or not. If the business was going to be profitable, instead of paying ourselves, we wanted to have a nice money cushion in case something did happen. And on top of that, we just wanted to continue to invest in the building, and in our business. We did... in my opinion, we started this business on on pretty much a shoestring budget for starting a seven barrel brewery and taproom. And I'm not afraid to mention it. We started out with $160,000 is what we can scrape up to start the business. So but by the time you buy equipment and you totally renovate a building and fill it with tables and chairs and beer and faucets and everything that goes into getting this place up and running, it was a little bit of a shoestring budget. So there's still stuff that we're kind of working on as we go. But we really wanted to be kind of fiscally responsible with our money in those first few years. So we had some opportunity to grow yet.

Dylan Schafer 19:24

And I think that coupled with the fact that we had just unending support from our customer base is really why we could make it through this tough time. I mean, we had people that... a lot of business was North Dakota had a shutdown order, starting... unfortunately, it was my wife's birthday. So we... normally and my wife's birthday St. Patrick's Day, so we always have a good beer drink and celebration for her birthday. And it was starting at close of business on St. Patrick's Day. We had to then be closed for any in house sales after that. And so that was really unfortunate. Thankfully, we had gotten our crowler machine up and running, we had just gotten in a huge shipment of cans. And we were pretty well stocked up to handle some off sale business. And the state allowed us to continue to run curbside to go off sale orders, we just couldn't have anyone drinking in house. So our customers were so supportive of that they got more and more beer every time they came in. And, I mean, we were burning through pallets of cans in a week, you know, it was great. But I really, really got to thank our customer base for for helping us through that hard time. And things are easing up now. You know, we still have some stipulations. And we have definitely limited seating and a little bit on limited hours and stuff. But we're hanging in there. And business seems to be picking back up anyway from those those COVID times though.

Connor Brekke 20:59

Yeah, and this place has a really awesome fan base, too. You know, every time I come in here, it's like, "oh, hey, man, welcome back." And customers are always talking about, "Yeah, yeah, I want to try this." And, "oh, we can recommend this." It's, it's just a really good vibe. You know, some places you go into, and you don't really feel like you belong there. It's got kind of an off feeling. I think everyone's been to a place like that. This, it's always feels like home here, no matter what time of day, no matter when. You've got a really great place here.

Dylan Schafer 21:32

Well, Iappreciate the kind words Connor.

Connor Brekke 21:34

Oh, and I mean it. Mandan's really needed something like this for a while.

Dylan Schafer 21:38

And we do really strive for that, me and my wife Hannah. So Hannah is the president of the company. She runs all business affairs, all front of house work. She coordinates what I am supposed to be brewing and when I'm supposed to be brewing it. I'm the back of house guy, I make the beer. And then Jake does our behind the scenes stuff. Apart from that, both Hannah and I, we do all the serving shifts. Occasionally we have some part time help here and there. But if you come in here to drink a beer, you'll see me and Hannah behind the bar, pouring that beer for you. And we really take pride in that customer interaction that we get. And I always want to hang on to that side of things because, it does just create such a wonderful environment. And I mean, on on most days of the week, I know probably 85, 90% of the customers in here on a first name basis. It's a good group of regulars. They're super supportive, and we're really appreciative of that.

Connor Brekke 22:38

So in a previous episode, we talked about people who really don't know much about the craft beer industry and drink kind of the name brand, box brand stuff. And you're always talking about beer. You're always talking about some aspect of beer, be it the hops and the flavor profile. And you're always, you know, asking customers who come in who are kind of wary of what they want about. "Alright, well, what do you what do you normally like to drink?" And then if they don't really drink beer, then you go in depth of the flavor profiles, like, you know, "are you a tea drinker? Do you drink coffee", trying to give them a good fit for what you have on the menu there. I remember when I first came in here, I started listening to you talk about alcohol, beer, you know, all this stuff. And I was just like, "wow, this is really informative. We should do a podcast" and then so came this.

Dylan Schafer 23:31

And if you get me talking about beer, I can get down some rabbit holes. That's for sure. Hannah always jokes that she has to come and pull me away from customers sometimes because they'll ask a simple question... and pretty soon I've given a little bit of a long winded explanation to that question.

Connor Brekke 23:47

Yeah, and I'm thinking I should have recorded that. Now we are.

Dylan Schafer 23:52

Andnow we are right?

Connor Brekke 23:55

Now going back to your sociology education, I believe the brewery's named Dialectic has something to do with that.

Dylan Schafer 24:03

It does, that's correct. Um, again, during while we were studying sociology, there was a pretty heavy overlap with social theory and philosophy as well. And so, our name Dialectic Brewing Company, we drew from some of the Galleon philosophy really, and the Galleon dialectic. And what that really boils down to, is just the way I like to put it is it's, "the art of discussing the truth in your opinions." So it's about coming together with people, having a civil reasonable conversation. If, Connor if you and I disagree about something, instead of us arguing or fighting about that thing, let's just have a discussion about it. Let's see why you believe what you believe. Let's see why I believe what I believe and we can kind of navigate that interaction based on that. And that's kind of the environment that we wanted to create and why we named the place Dialectic. It's because we really wanted to create a place where community members could get together, sit down over a pint, and talk to each other. Um, you know, sometimes I feel like in today's day and age, we've lost that human connection a little bit. And I just like to offer people a place where they can come in and get that human connection and experience that "dialectical method" right here while they sit and have a beer. And on that note, you know, we don't have a tap room full of TVs, you won't find a TV anywhere in here. Um, we play some light music in the background and let people hang out and talk to each other. I mean, people are everything in this world. And if when we lose that human interaction and that human connection, it can be unfortunate. So, we wanted to create a space for people to get that. And we figured that Dialectic was the perfect name to embody that.

Connor Brekke 25:56

Yeah. And that's going back to how this place feels that tight knit family friendly, you know, minus the kids, feeling to it. I mean, it's a brewery... so you can't really bring kids in here. You know, and get a mix of complete strangers coming in here... well, actually, most of them are regulars. So they all know each other anymore.

Dylan Schafer 26:14

That's so true. And we have customers who came in showed up one day, bellied up to the bar by themselves and pretty soon, someone that they have no idea who it was a complete stranger came in bellied up to the bar next to them. And the next thing I know, they're making plans to come in again next weekend and have a beer and sit and talk with each other. So that, I mean, that's... incredibly rewarding to me. That's the reason, apart from loving beer and loving the industry... we open this business so people could get together and experience those things with each other. And I'm really happy to see when that does happen.

Connor Brekke 26:50

And pre COVID... yeah, we can just forget last year happened, you did have some pretty awesome mug club get togethers for all your mug club members out here.

Dylan Schafer 27:00

Yep. Yeah, we do, we do kind of a yearly mug club membership. So you sign up here once a year, 100 dollars gets your membership in the club, and you get discounts on beer, discounts on off sale beer, you get a little bit more beer with each pour. And then we have some private parties and stuff like that where those mug clubs can get together and play games and chat and just have a good time get to know each other.

Connor Brekke 27:27

Yeah. And speaking of private parties, you have a lot of people coming in here, asking to rent out the mezzanine area for weddings or get togethers, business meetings, all kinds of stuff.

Dylan Schafer 27:40

We've got a pretty big spectrum of folks. And having this mezzanine space is really nice because we can... if people want their own space for a private party, we can... they can isolate up here on the mezzanine and not be involved with everything else going down on the main floor. And I mean, we've had bachelorette and bachelor parties. We actually have a wedding reception brunch coming up here this fall. That one's going to be pretty low key event. But yeah, we've had wedding parties, bachelor parties, Christmas parties, retirement parties. I mean, you name it, and people have pretty much booked the space to do.

Connor Brekke 28:22

Yeah, it's been a great thing for the community. And again, pre-COVID times you'd have different events here like I believe on.... Tuesday was game night?

Dylan Schafer 28:31

Wednesday nights. Yeah, Wednesday nights was always game night.

Connor Brekke 28:34

And on Tuesday was trivia?

Dylan Schafer 28:36

Yep, yep. And we're we're hoping to step back up trivia next month here. Again, we'll be a little limited on the number of teams that can participate just because we are limited seating right now. But our numbers have been looking better and stuff as far as COVID goes. So I think we're going to try to ease back into our trivia nights and stuff again, and get a few more of those things going.

Connor Brekke 29:00

So some time has passed. And we're now into the summer. And your guys's event schedule is starting to pick back up again. So we still have trivia on Tuesday. Wednesday is now... there's a local food truck, Mabels All Day is usually here most Wednesdays now, which is great. And then you guys have some events coming up.

Dylan Schafer 29:22

Well... and right now we actually have just one hosted by our other owner, my wife, Hannah. So she's hosting a succulent planting class. And then in addition to that, now that kind of restrictions have eased up a little bit folks are getting vaccinated and things are getting a little bit more back to normal... we're just trying to step up on some events a little bit more and get people back out engaging with their community. So of course this summer we get our big stuff like the car show and the Fourth of July festivities and all that stuff that happens right downtown and Mandan here. And then in addition to that, We'll be doing some more classes, we'll be doing some beer classes, some planting classes because we're some plant fanatics too. And just generally speaking, well, we'll be able to get into a lot more events now with more capacity and some lifted restrictions on us.

Connor Brekke 30:16

And then if you're a mug club member, you got, you know, some potential upcoming mug club events. Actually, I don't think we talked about the actual mug club yet. We want to give us a rundown of what you need to do to get a hold of one of those.

Dylan Schafer 30:30

Yeah, so we do offer a yearly mug club membership at dialectic, I'm basically $100 gets into the club for your yearly membership. And that comes with some benefits on your standard 16 ounce pours, you get a 20 ounce mug instead of 16 ounces, so you get those 4 ounces for free. You also get $1 off your first beer every night. $2 off growler fills every Tuesday, and then you do get some invites to special events our... we do private parties for our mug club. During the last year they were a little sparse just because we couldn't really have any get togethers. But again, now that things are getting a little more back to normal, we usually try to do about three or four big mug club parties every year where mug clubbers come in and we usually have one of our local food trucks set up and we play games and do beer trivia and... drink plenty of beer.

Connor Brekke 31:28

And hopefully I can set up some recording for everybody too.

Dylan Schafer 31:32

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 31:33

We can get a nice little group beer discussion going that'd be kind of fun.

Dylan Schafer 31:36

Get some beer tastings going. I know we've been trying to plan a few of those now that we're kind of, again, getting out of the pandemic season a little bit.

Connor Brekke 31:45

Yeah, it's been kind of a rough last year, but everything's... now it's getting better.

Dylan Schafer 31:51

It's looking up.

Connor Brekke 31:52

It's looking up. There's a lot of beer to be had. And there's a lot of people who want beer and a lot of fun times and memories to make. So Mr. Dylan, thank you so much for talking to us about your establishment here. And again, I always appreciate you co-hosting with me on these shows.

Dylan Schafer 32:08

Yeah, I love being here. So..

Connor Brekke 32:10

It's always great to get some knowledge out for people. Alrighty guys, that concludes our special episode about the story of Dialectic. Until next time, cheers.

Connor Brekke 32:23

The Ombibulous is made possible with Castos, giving creators the tools to connect with their audience and community. The music is courteous of Pond5. With over 25 million royalty free stock videos, music, photos, and sound effects, there's something for every creator. Today's content was recorded here at Dialectic Brewing Company in Mandan, North Dakota. I would like to thank Dylan Schafer for the use of his facility and time to create this episode. And of course, a big thanks to all our listeners for all of your support. Until next time, cheers.

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In part 1 of the IPA special we break down what an IPA is and some popuilar varieties.

IPA Special

SPEAKERS

Connor Brekke, Dylan Schafer

Connor Brekke 00:09

Hello, everyone and welcome back to The Ombibulous, a show where we discuss a variety of topics regarding alcohol. From specific beer styles, distillation, the brewing process, wine, spirits, and even a history of certain liquor laws, there's a fascinating world to explore. On today's episode, we kick off part one of our IPA special where we discuss various types of IPAs. Joining me today is Dylan Schafer, owner of Dialectic Brewing Company here in Mandan, North Dakota. I'm your host, Connor Brekke. Let's all raise a glass to The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:50

Alright, everybody, we are back with a special episode for you today. I'm joined again with Mr. Dylan Schafer, and today we are going to kick off a special series, that is our IPA series today. We're going to run down kind of a history of the IPA and some modern, new styles that are kind of widely available everywhere.

Dylan Schafer 01:14

And I think an IPA is a good one to cover too, because it is really ubiquitous with the craft beer world today. I mean, it kind of started gaining popularity and honestly, probably in the 1990s around the states and has really held true is a mainstay style for a lot of breweries, a lot of craft breweries. The style does date back a lot farther than that. So the IPA for those who don't know, is the India Pale Ale. And it gets its name from right around the late 1700s, around 1780. All those who were British individuals in India, were looking for one of their paler beers. So they were exporting... they were successfully exporting beer to India at the time. And a lot of those beers were your porters your darker maltier beers. And they were looking for something lighter, crisper, more refreshing to import to the hot India weather. And their solution to doing that was basically taking a British, a classic British Pale Ale and cranking the hops up on it and cranking the alcohol up on it a little bit. So it wasn't necessarily that much more alcoholic than some of the other beers they were exporting. Just the alcohol act as a natural preservative and a lot of the styles they exported. But hops being a natural preservative were another good way to kind of make sure that beer can make this six month voyage all the way over to India.

Dylan Schafer 02:47

So that was kind of the start of the style. Again, it was originally a British style of beer. So anytime you see on the market today, if you see like an English pale ale or sorry, an English IPA, that's going to be a little bit more close to what you would have seen on a traditional IPA. So again, that was kind of... came into practice in the late 1700s and really gained popularity in the 1800s. The style kind of fell by the wayside for quite a while. And then as the United States craft beer market kind of started picking up, which was really kind of the late 1970s is when American craft beer started become a thing again. And so that's where we saw the IPA kind of gain a resurgence in the United States at the time in Great Britain, they weren't really brewing IPAs at all, It had fallen by the wayside. And new American craft brewers wanted to kind of bring back some of those traditional styles, the IPA being one of those.

Dylan Schafer 03:50

And of course, being Americans, we did kind of take our own twist with that. So a lot of the classic IPAs again, were using some more English hop varietals, some just European hot varietals in general. And the Americans kind of found that the style of beer was really well suited for the varieties of hops we were growing out in the Yakima Valley. You get a lot of those nice, piney, fruity characteristics from the American hops. And it went really well in a nice pale beer. So that's where we saw kind of the US start to pick up the style of the IPA. And since then, it kind of has gone all over the map with the different types of IPAs, you can find out there. So the classic American IPA is going to be what we see is a West Coast IPA today. So you got a lot more of those kind of piney and citrusy hop characteristics from those West Coast hops. And that was kind of the start of IPAs in the United States was those West Coast IPAs. And then the popularity of that style kind of started traveling east and eventually took over the country and the whole world again, honestly. But then we started seeing some pretty significant variants on that American IPA or that West Coast IPA. So we started seeing things like Heady Topper is kind of regarded as the first ever New England IPA to pop up. And for those who don't know, a New England IPA, it's going to be the same thing as a hazy IPA or a juicy IPA. Whatever the brewery chooses to market the beer as they're all kind of within that same realm of a New England IPA, the hazy IPA, juicy IPA, NE IPA, it's all going to be the same thing.

Dylan Schafer 05:37

And the idea with those was most of your West Coast IPAs were pretty highly bittered. So you're sitting right along the bitterness scale is the IBU rating. And that's going to be a rating... it actually goes from zero to 1000. But the human palate can't detect much more than 100. So a lot of your West Coast IPAs sat around that 75 to 100 range. And the Brewers, at Alchemists Brewing Company who came out with a Heady Topper, they kind of wanted to make something that was a little bit more approachable. So that brought the bitterness way down closer to like 20 IBUs, and they dry, hopped it more heavily. And that heavy dry hopping at a certain point during fermentation gives you a really juicy hop character really kind of tropical, fruity hop character. And they found that to be a very desirable characteristic and beer. The flip side is that brewing practice also introduced a bunch of haze into the beer, but that's where you see the development of those hazy IPAs.

Dylan Schafer 06:37

In addition to the hazy IPAs, people also started doing their milkshake IPAs, where they started kind of brewing a hazy IPA and then adding a whole bunch of lactose and fruit and stuff like that to it. We also saw folks start brewing the Belgian IPAs where they were brewing the classic American IPA recipe, but fermenting it out with Belgian yeast to give it some of those kind of fruity esters in there from the yeast as well. We also see our Imperial IPAs and or also known as a double IPA. For those of you who see D IPA up on a tablet somewhere or an I IPA. That second is just standing for Imperial IPA. And that Imperial pretty much just means that it's the higher alcohol content. So instead of being that kind of 6% to 7% range, they were up there closer to 8, 9, 10 percent. I've seen them all the way up to 11, 12, 13% as well so...

Dylan Schafer 07:36

And we do have right now, Connor and I are sipping on a couple examples of IPAs that I have on the board right now. The first one is actually a smash IPA. And for those who don't know what that smash stands for, it's Single Malt And Aingle Hop (SMASH). So it's basically just base malt, and then one particular hop to really showcase what that about hop character is. And so the one I have on tap right now is actually a citra hop smash IPA.

Connor Brekke 08:07

And then I'll probably say this a few times on the show, but I'm not really... I don't dislike IPAs, I'm just kind of not used to them. I'm still hunting for the right one. And so far, most of the ones out here I Dialectic I've been, you know, keen to. This one... I really love this one. I think I've ordered this one a few times now. But it's, it's got a really great well rounded flavor and then you don't get that just strong bitterness, you can actually taste the floral essence of like the hops and everything like other things that I feel like you kind of miss out on with like a super crazy bitter IPA. I mean, to each their own, but that's just my personal take on them.

Dylan Schafer 08:49

Absolutely. And I think the citra hop is a really good hop to use for a little bit more of an approachable IPA. It does have a whole lot of flavor and a whole lot of character. But citra has a notoriously smooth bitterness. So this beer is up there at 75 IBU so, it is fairly bitter on that scale. But the bitterness is such a smooth bitterness that it doesn't, it's not just punching in the face with Piney bitterness. And you get a lot of those nice kind of stone fruits, some tropical fruit and some citrus fruit characteristics from that pretty heavy addition of dry hopping with citra in there as well. So I do think that that hop in general is just can be a really approachable hot for folks.

Dylan Schafer 09:33

And the second beer that we're sampling to, our second IPA that's on the list right now is actually a fruited Belgian IPA. So it is fermented with Belgian yeast, but it's fermented at a really really low, ale temperature, and that lower temperature keeps some of those Belgian esters restrained a little bit and just contributes kind of a light fruitiness to the beer. And then it is brewed with a whole bunch of pink guava puree. So this batch I did for my system here it was a small batch. I just did 100 gallon batch of this beer, and it does get 200 pounds of pink guava added to that 100 gallon batch. So a dose of about two pounds of guava per every gallon of beer. And it doesn't... I like when I brew fruited beers that to not cover up the character of the beer with the fruit. So you definitely know it's got that guava in there, you pick up that guava flavor, but it doesn't totally dominate the hop character of the beer either.

Connor Brekke 10:35

And this guava one is really good too. It's a bit different from the Smash IPA I notice, but just looking at these two in front of me, I have the Smash IPA in my left hand and it is a brilliant golden... is just a really nice golden clear color. And then not to say anything bad about the other one, but it's a little more hazy a little little, I don't know kind of looks like a lemonade or a shandy, but it's still really good. And you can definitely taste the difference in smoothness. The guava one's got... I don't want to say tastes creamy, but it's got kind of a cream like characteristic to it compared to the Smash IPA.

Dylan Schafer 11:13

It does the body in the mouth deal of those of the two beers are very, very different that the guava has, like you said much more of a creamy, smooth mouthfeel to it. And at the same rate, the bitterness on it. Although it's 76 IBUs only one IBU more than the citra. The bitterness is a little bit sharper on the guava IPA. And again, that's mainly a hop difference. So this one has a lot of Cascade, Centennial, which are going to be some really classic West Coast hops. And then in addition to that, it's also got some more English hop varietals as late additions, giving it kind of a really nice floral hop character in there.

Dylan Schafer 11:56

Yeah, but and I think those are two kind of really good examples of how... I like to tell people not to be scared away from IPAs, because there's a huge variety of different IPAs available out there. These beers that we're drinking right now are very, very different from each other. And I actually have a hazy IPA, or a New England IPA down in the fermenter. Right now, that will be coming on tap next week. And that one, again, is very, very different than the two we're having right now. So you can find a huge variety of IPAs out there and for folks that are new to craft beer that are looking to get out there and get into the IPA world a little bit. You know, I recommend starting starting maybe with some of your milkshake IPAs, your hazy IPAs, your fruited IPAs, they're going to be a little bit more mellow on the palate and just a little bit more approachable. And then the West Coast IPA is definitely being a little more aggressive, a little sharper, a little more bitter in general.

Connor Brekke 12:57

I would have to say personally as a sour person... I really enjoy the milkshake IPAs. They're just I don't know... they're fun, I guess because the different fruit flavors and all the wild kind of stuff I've seen people do with them. Those have been kind of my go to and I'm still trying to branch out but every time I come here, it's like "oh, new IPA cool... this one I like." It's nice to have a variety. Because I'm so used to, you know, before craft beer really kind of took off, It was just here's something that tastes like a pine cone. Here you go. It's like "hmmm, I'll pass."

Dylan Schafer 13:34

And that was the the world of IPAs for the longest time in the US. Anyway, were West Coast IPAs and and we do brew a West Coast IPA that's called the pine cone graveyard. And it is a very Piney it's 100 IBU, piny, classic example of a traditional West Coast style. But like you said, it's nice to have the variety out there, especially with how popular IPAs have become. We don't want to see a tap lineup with just 30 different West Coast IPAs up there. You know, it's nice to have an actual variety of IPAs, especially when you see some brewers out there who you go into their taproom and their lineup of 12 beers has eight or nine different IPAs on it and every single one of them is a very unique beer. And I will say on your note to Connor that those... the milkshake IPAs are hugely, hugely popular right now. It almost seems like the the hazy IPAs the New England IPAs were a big trend for a little while. And that kind of morphed into the the milkshake IPA where they were brewing a hazy and then adding that lactose and heavy fruit additions and, and those have become hugely, hugely popular in the market today. Odds are if you find a brewery who's got IPAs on tap. You're gonna see a milkshake on the board.

Connor Brekke 14:54

Yeah, I've kind of noticed that. I've kind of noticed that like, sours like barrel aged sours, I see more and more places, acquiring barrels and doing that, but at the same time, I've definitely noticed an uptick in the milkshake IPA style, which is kind of cool.

Dylan Schafer 15:10

Yeah, it's nice to see the different varieties out there. I'm always happy about that. And I, you know, I am a little bit of a hophead. I love drinking IPAs. So when I go out to a place and I can try 5, 6, 7 unique IPAs, I'm pretty satisfied with that. And that's not to say that the IPA is a style that should dominate the craft beer industry. There are a lot of really, really great styles out there. But I think the IPA is not going to go away anytime soon. It's... it's been in the market since the late 1970s. Honestly, in the US, and for a beer style to hold that much importance for that long in the craft beer industry, I think we can safely say that it isn't going to be going anywhere as a general style.

Connor Brekke 15:56

Yeah, it's like rock and roll. It's not going away anytime soon.

Dylan Schafer 16:00

Exactly. And you have, you have, again, with so many varieties, why would it go away because no matter what the beer drinker is, they're going to find an IPA to fit them. I mean, when I forgot to mention is the black IPA. So for the folks who like something a little bit darker and a little bit maltier, you can venture into the black IPAs that have a you know, in my mind, they're kind of the best of both worlds. You get that really nice, rich malty character, some good roasty coffee and chocolate notes to it. But then also a good punch of hops in there as well. So But yeah, I mean, I think that pretty well generally covers the style of IPA. Again, I gave a very truncated version of the history of the style. But it is a really unique style. It has some really great historical significance when it comes to the beer industry, and especially the resurgence of smaller brewers and craft brewers in the United States and over in Europe as well so...

Connor Brekke 17:02

Yep, folks, the IPA is not going away anytime soon. And if you're afraid of them, like I was... still am kind of... not really just know that there's a bunch of different styles out there. Yeah, I guess location is kind of key. We're just lucky to have a place like Dialectic. And then we have Buffalo Commons and some other places in Bismarck that do local craft beer, and then some liquor stores that carry local stuff, too. So I would say next time you're just out and about and maybe look up, or you might be able to find one of these, maybe you got a liquor store that has craft beer? There's there's a lot of that coming out into the market. North Dakota's brew scene has taken off tremendously in the last three years. So maybe you can find something that you might like and if you don't like it, well down the drain it goes or pass it on to somebody else. But there's a big world out there.

Dylan Schafer 17:55

If you're drinking great craft beer with friends and you don't like the IPA you got odds are you can probably pawn it off on a friend.

Connor Brekke 18:02

Yep, exactly.

Dylan Schafer 18:04

And I think he had a good point to Connor with location kind of being everything. Obviously for folks who are located out on the East Coast, you are going to see a lot more of the New England and hazy IPAs, and that's great. Folks located out on the West Coast, you're going to see the market a lot more dominated by those classic West Coast IPAs. Being right here in the Midwest, we kind of take brewing influence from all over the place. And at least I know around the Bismarck Mandan area, you can pretty much find any kind of hoppy beer you're looking for represented in the Bismarck Mandan area here.

Connor Brekke 18:41

Yeah, we have a liquor store called Williquors in Bismarck, kinda on the far east end of it, that has a pretty impressive selection of craft beer. A lot of its North Dakota too. Like you get a lot from like... I've seen Junkyard, Fargo... I've seen like Rhombus Guys and a bunch of other stuff over there too in can form. And then they do have a tap room where you can, well you don't sit down and drink. It's basically a growler fill station. So they have 10 of them.

Dylan Schafer 19:09

Yep.

Connor Brekke 19:10

You can look up online and check it out.

Dylan Schafer 19:13

And on that note, and speaking of IPAs, and speaking of Williquours I, I got a little inside message today that Junkyard does have a van showing up at Williquors today for a fresh delivery. So you're feeling like grabbing some Junkyard beer while you're here, Connor, probably not a bad time to do it because they will have a fresh stockpile over there Williquors.

Connor Brekke 19:34

I think I know what I'm doing.

Dylan Schafer 19:37

It's convenient knowing some folks in the craft beer industry you know when all those drops are coming.

Connor Brekke 19:44

Well, folks, we kind of got a good little history of what an IPA is some knowledge on common styles of IPAs and the flavor profiles. So the only thing left to do is drink one yourself. So I would say come on down to Dialectic. Whenever you get a chance, they have really good selection on their board. Very diverse, very interesting. If you're new to it and get yourself a pint.

Dylan Schafer 20:10

We'd love to have you down here.

Connor Brekke 20:12

So until next time... cheers.

Connor Brekke 20:15

The Ombibulous is made possible with Castos, giving creators the tools to connect with their audience and community. The music is courteous of Pond5. With over 25 million royalty free stock videos, music, photos, and sound effects, there's something for every creator. Today's content was recorded here at Dialectic Brewing Company in Mandan, North Dakota. I would like to thank Dylan Schafer for the use of his facility and time to create this episode. And of course, a big thanks to all our listeners for all of your support. Until next time... cheers

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In honor of the beginning of summer, this episode is all about gin. Cheers!

Gin

SPEAKERS

Michael Kashey, Connor Brekke

Connor Brekke 00:08

Hello, everyone and welcome back to The Ombibulous, a show where we discuss a variety of topics regarding alcohol. From specific beer styles, distillation, the brewing process, wine, spirits, and even a history of certain liquor laws. There's a fascinating world to explore. On today's episode, we have a discussion about gin. Joining me today is Michael Kashey of Thomas and Moriarty's here in downtown Mandan. I'm your host, Connor Brekke. Let's all raise a glass to... The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:44

Alright, everybody, welcome back to another riveting episode of The Ombibulous. Joining me once again is Mr. Michael Kashey. Thank you for coming back on the show... I haven't scared you away yet, so that's that's good thing.

Michael Kashey 00:57

Ah, you're gonna have to do do worse.

Connor Brekke 01:00

So today we have an episode about a favorite summer drink with summer... North Dakota summer, hopefully approaching pretty quickly here.

Michael Kashey 01:11

I mean, we could also get summer in December. Who knows?

Connor Brekke 01:14

Yeah, who knows? It's North Dakota. But we got an episode about gin today. You know, for people that know me, I didn't really know anything about mixed drinks or cocktails or anything. Gin was introduced to me buy this place two years ago and I really like it. It's... it's a good summer drink.

Michael Kashey 01:37

It has a... I would say an undeserved reputation. Gin is... it's a... one, it's a diverse spirit. But it is made right in the right cocktail it is fantastic. I think we've turned a lot of non gin drinkers into gin drinkers in the three years we've been open.

Connor Brekke 01:54

Yep. I'm one of them, definitely. So gin, it has a pretty far reaching roots... the history of it anyways. You know, a lot of this stuff is medicinal, you know, in origin.

Michael Kashey 02:07

Yep.

Connor Brekke 02:09

To my understanding that gin dates back to the medieval times.

Michael Kashey 02:13

Yeah. So gin, if you're going to trace it back to its origins actually originated in a Dutch spirit called ginever. Ginever literally, literally means juniper. And this is, it's a little bit different than the modern gin that we have today. It uh.. 1500s was a it was basically a rye malt that was distilled with juniper berries. So it's going to be a little little malty kind of has some whiskey characteristics, but then there's that also that kind of like, like freshness, that kind of like piney almost juniper kind of flavor to it. Basically, about 100 years later, or so... the English weren't able to get their ginever brought in, they didn't... and they didn't know how to make it. So they started distilling neutral grain spirits, basically vodka. Gin is, modern day and I should say, is the original flavored vodka. It's juniper flavored vodka with different botanicals, orange peel, coriander, sometimes cardamom, lavender in some.

Connor Brekke 03:20

So there's different types of gin too?

Michael Kashey 03:23

Yeah, so the kind of the original, the gin that everybody knows is... would be called a London Dry style. This is going to be that juniper forward, it's gonna it's piney. It's gonna taste like pine to think like your Tanqueray, your Bombays. These tend to be the gins that people associate all gin with, and the reason they don't like gin. First time I ever had gin, I was not quite of age. And it may or may not have been in a plastic bottle. And it may or may not have been sitting in a garage all summer long. And ironically, I really liked it. But I didn't drink it again for a few years. Until I... you know, drank.

Connor Brekke 04:05

The first gin I had was, was here it was... I've smelled it

Michael Kashey 04:08

Never never had.

Connor Brekke 04:09

I've never had it before.

Michael Kashey 04:11

What!?

Connor Brekke 04:11

I just always associate it with...

Michael Kashey 04:13

Pine?

Connor Brekke 04:14

..pine. And I'm like, I'm not sure about this. And I've smelled it. I'm like, ooh, it smells like... a forest in not a great way. But, the first one I had was here and I was like... this isn't bad at all. So I know, there's definitely different types. And obviously, quality's a pretty big deal as, as it should be with all these different types of spirits and whatnot. But you guys do several different types of drinks involving gin around here. So it's.. after seeing the ingredients that you guys use and how you mix it together, it seems like you can do quite a bit with it.

Michael Kashey 04:52

Yeah, you can do... I like to.... I don't like to break the mold too much with gin. I'd like to use gin and more of the like kind of bright, sort of summer focused cocktails. Usually they're fairly refreshing. We are bringing back or we've brought back I should say our gin and tonic menu. We make our own tonic here. And so we'll pair... we'll take a gin and then we'll take something that pairs with the botanicals in it. So if say we're using a Japanese gin that's going to have that like kind of tea, tea like flavors to it, those floral will pair that with Thai basil and then goji berries and then we'll mix it with our tonic and they are fantastic.

Connor Brekke 05:35

The goji berry one's really good, if you guys ever get to Thomas and Morty's downtown, I would go with that... definitely. Yeah, there's ah, different types of gin like the.. you mentioned Japanese distilled gin, London gin.

Michael Kashey 05:51

The London dry is the most popular one. There's Plymouth gin, which is a really fantastic one. And that was... I started turning a lot of non gin drinkers in using that right away. It's going to be a little bit more citrusy. That one has a little bit of a history to it, too. It was, by the name of it, you can guess where it originated. With Plymouth of course, and it was the gin that the pilgrims brought on, on their boats when they landed in America. These spirits the spirits tend to be old.

Connor Brekke 06:29

Speaking of old, there's one called Old Tom gin.

Michael Kashey 06:33

Yes, so Old Tom Gin, if you were drinking gin in the late 1800s, one you would have either been drinking, if it was called Holland gin, that would have been Geneva, or if it was just gin, it would be an Old Tom gin. Old Tom is going to be a little little sweeter. It's lighter on that juniper, and then it's had a little bit of sugar added to it to kind of round out some of those more botanical flavors.

Connor Brekke 06:58

Sounds better than the bathtub gin for the Prohibition era.

Michael Kashey 07:01

Yeah, yeah, do not.. if it's made in a bathtub, do not drink it.

Connor Brekke 07:04

Usually things that are produced in a bathtub are a pass. I mean, you know, to each their own, but I would highly say pass on anything made in the bathtub.

Michael Kashey 07:13

Some people pay good money for that.

Connor Brekke 07:15

I suppose. Um, there's kind of an infamous gin drink that I've heard of. I actually tried it in New Orleans called the Ramos Gin Fizz.

Michael Kashey 07:26

Where'd you.. where do you have it at in New Orleans?

Connor Brekke 07:29

I don't remember. I don't remember it was kind of a fancy place.

Michael Kashey 07:32

Did it have a rotating bar.

Connor Brekke 07:33

No, it wasn't that fancy.

Michael Kashey 07:35

Didn't go to the carousel?

Connor Brekke 07:36

But I just remember the guide saying I gotta order... I gotta order this now, 40 minutes in advance. It's like... Okay?

Michael Kashey 07:42

Wow. Yeah, you don't have to do that here. So yeah, the the Ramos Gin Fizz is a is an incredibly famous New Orleans cocktail. And personally, I think it should be the official cocktail of New Orleans. It's, it's, it's a very, it's a one of a kind, classic cocktail. It was created by a guy named Henry Ramos in the late 1800s, at a bar in New Orleans called a Cabinet Saloon. And he was actually, before he was a bartender, he was a, he worked in a pharmacy. So he made sodas, and he basically took one of these classic pharmacy drinks... pharmacy drinks? Is that what you know, you'd say?

Connor Brekke 08:22

I would say, yeah.

Michael Kashey 08:24

Medicines? And he turned it into a cocktail. So the Ramos Gin Fizz is made of gin lemon, egg white cream, something called orange flower water, and then seltzer or soda water. So originally, it took about 15 minutes to make. Definitely now people focus on that too much. But there's a reason why it took that long. Now it takes about a minute and a half, two minutes, if you watch us make it at least and it looks exactly the same. Back then they were shaking it with the soda water. And so they were shaking it till it was flat, but they wanted that minerality from that mineral water. Whereas now we add that for a little bit of effervescence. And when we pour it in, it's usually gets a really nice foam that can sit an inch or two over the glass. Looks like a push pop almost.

Connor Brekke 09:18

I remember asking why, finally, when we got the drink is "why did you order this 40 minutes ago?" and like "Oh, they shake the living daylights out of it to make it foam" and I'm like.. "ok?"

Michael Kashey 09:28

Yeah, you don't, there's a little bit of clinging to the past I think with that one. So I'm gonna I'm gonna break for most of the, the cocktail world on this right now. But you do need to shake it more than the average drink just because you're trying to areate that egg white and try to, you know, get that emulsion going. But 15 minutes, five, five minutes is honestly too much.

Connor Brekke 09:52

Fair enough. We were with a group but we only had three people in our group. So either way... it was definitely interesting in the foamyness and fizzyness of it it was...

Michael Kashey 10:05

Yeah, it's..

Michael Kashey 10:05

...it's, it's a ah, it is a fantastic drink, especially when you have one made properly. We uh, we had some in New Orleans and they were life changing.

Connor Brekke 10:05

Pertty good

Connor Brekke 10:14

There's a lot of life changing stuff down there.

Michael Kashey 10:17

That was also the first one I've had that I didn't make in 4 or almost five years I think.

Connor Brekke 10:26

Kind of nice to be the the one having it.

Michael Kashey 10:28

Yeah, I felt that asking for it. But I was like screw it... I'm on vacation and I gotta make these all the time.

Connor Brekke 10:34

I hear you. But there's another gin product that's kind of worth mentioning, I think a bit sloe gin.

Michael Kashey 10:42

Ah, now slow ginn. Everybody... well, I shouldn't say everybody but it seems that a lot of people know slow gin as that really, it's that purple stuff that they drank way too much of in... not drinking age times. High school, college. super sweet. Well, it is, it is sweet. It's purple. But it's it's a gin that's been infused with sloe berries. So it's gonna be a little bit sweeter than, it's going to be quite a bit sweeter than your average gin and then it's a lot lighter, it's more palatable I would say for the non gin drinkers and that's another hook that we use. One, it has a pretty color and it's got a really nice berry kind of flavor to it with a little bit of that botanical juniper kick to it.

Connor Brekke 11:23

So is it, it's technically a gin

Michael Kashey 11:26

Yeah, it's a gin,

Connor Brekke 11:27

Okay. I knew it had other things in it I just didn't know what it was exactly. Heard it was kind of in this weird realm.

Michael Kashey 11:35

Yeah, Ithink and I'm not sure how much sugar is added to it because I don't know, i don't think slow berries are that sweet, but it's still for all intents and purposes considered a gin instead of a liquour.

Connor Brekke 11:47

What is your go to method for gin preparation?

Michael Kashey 11:53

It depends on the gin depends on the day depends on the cocktail.

Connor Brekke 11:57

So your like your ideal... you got your bottle of gin that you want in your exact setup. What what what are you going for?

Michael Kashey 12:05

What's the weather outside that day? And am I gonna be drinking it outside?

Michael Kashey 12:10

It's gonna be sunny, probably mid 70s and you're patio is open.

Michael Kashey 12:15

I will probably honestly be making a Ramos. A Ramos Gin Fizz or a Tom Collins. I like those really light, kind of citrusy.

Connor Brekke 12:24

Tom Collins? What is the Tom Collins?

Michael Kashey 12:26

So yeah, the Tom Collins is another classic, classic cocktail Old Tom Gin, lemon and soda water.

Connor Brekke 12:34

Hmm. Pretty straightforward.

Michael Kashey 12:36

Yep, bright, refreshing. You want to make sure that water though is ice cold. Get those really nice bubbles going.

Connor Brekke 12:42

Summer can't get here soon enough and definitely can't wait for the gins to start rolling out here.

Michael Kashey 12:49

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 12:51

Yeah, gins's good. Don't let the pinyness scare you like it does some people. You can get good gins and stuff that're really flavorful and delicious.

Michael Kashey 13:02

It's a diverse spirit. And it's like any spirit. Honestly, there's there's a gin for everybody. I'll make ginger drinks all the time for people who say I want I'd like everything except gin like Oh, you're getting a ginger drink nine times out of 10 they like it.

Connor Brekke 13:17

It's a bit different than like whiskey or something. I mean that... I don't... those are kind of strong. There's definitely going to be people don't like it. But I... with all the gins I've had here, it's... there's a lot of good things I think. I think we can turn anybody into a gin drinker honestly.

Michael Kashey 13:38

Yeah, my my girlfriend who owns the bar with me never like gin and every drink I made for for three years was a gin drink and "what's this?" It's gin.

Connor Brekke 13:45

Kind of the magic...

Michael Kashey 13:46

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 13:47

...the magic spirit.

Michael Kashey 13:48

Well with a good drink too. Like it might bring out some of those other qualities in the gin that you do like that you wouldn't typically see in gin.

Connor Brekke 13:58

Yeah. So, if you guys are in the Bismarck, Mandan area... come on down Thomas Moriarty's on Main Street Mandan and get yourself a gin drink... once summer kicks in. Soon, I hope... sooner than later. That'd be preferable.

Michael Kashey 14:16

Well, maybe it'll be this week or a day and then... it's North Dakota.

Connor Brekke 14:20

Alrighty guys. Well, thank you for joining us, and I will see you next time.

Connor Brekke 14:27

The Ombibulous is made possible with Castos, giving creators the tools to connect with their audience and community. The music is courteous of Pond5. With over 25 million royalty free stock videos, music, photos, and sound effects, there's something for every creator. Today's episode was recorded at Thomas and Moriarty's in downtown Mandan, North Dakota. I would like to thank Mr. Kashey for his time and the use of his facility to make this episode possible. And of course, a big thanks to all our listeners for all of your support. Until next time, cheers.

View Details

On this episode we journey to New Orleans and discover the origins of the Sazerac.

Sazerac

SPEAKERS

Michael Kashey, Connor Brekke

Connor Brekke 00:08

Hello, everyone and welcome back to The Ombibulous, a show where we discuss a variety of topics regarding alcohol. From specific beer styles, distillation, the brewing process, wine, spirits, and even a history of certain liquor laws, there's a fascinating world to explore. Today we take a trip to the Big Easy, where we explore the origins of the Sazerac. Joining me today is Michael Kashey of Thomas and Moriarty's here in downtown Mandan. I'm your host, Connor Brekke. Let's all raise a glass to.. The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:48

Alright, everybody, welcome back to another episode. And Mr. Kashey, thank you for joining us again.

Michael Kashey 00:55

Anytime.

Connor Brekke 00:57

And we got another mixed drink, another cocktail, another adventure into the spirit world today. We will be talking about the Sazerac. It's.. a pretty important drink I would say.

Michael Kashey 01:12

I think that the people of New Orleans would probably agree with you.

Connor Brekke 01:15

So to get started, you mind giving us kind of a brief rundown of what the Sazerac is and why it's such a big deal?

Michael Kashey 01:25

Yeah. So with the Sazerac, we're gonna have to, one go down to New Orleans. And then we're going to have to do a little cocktail history. Yeah. So the legend has it that the Sazerac is the first cocktail, created by a guy named Antoine Peychaud out of his pharmacy, and he used to serve it in this... it was a cognac cocktail made from Sazerac cognac, and he served it in this egg cup called a Coquetier. And of course, Americans being American, can't pronounce French words because, you know, while we won the war, and that word became cocktail. And that's basically the legend that we've kind of, I wouldn't say grown up knowing, but drinkers, like kind of amateur cocktail geeks had heard. Unfortunately, every single word of that was total rubbish. Now, the word cocktail actually first appeared in print in 1806. It was described as a sugar spirit bitters and water. We don't know who invented it. But it was it was basically just a format. Any, any drink with sugar, spirit, bitters, and water is considered a cocktail. So you could have... if tequila would have been a thing, you could have had a tequila cocktail, you could add a vodka cocktail. The other problem with that story is Peychaud was actually born in 1803. So if he did invent the cocktail, he was a prodigy. But yeah, so the cocktail as we know it, originated a little bit earlier, a little more obscure, not sure who created it. Actually the Brits were drinking a gin, Old Tom gin, which is sweetened with sugar. They would have this thing called Stoughton's bitters. So there's your bitters, and then they would dilute it with water. So if you trace it long enough, we can go back to the 17th century as being the creation of the cocktail. So the Sazerac wasn't the first cocktail, wasn't the first American cocktail either as juleps were very popular as at this time.

Connor Brekke 03:39

Alrighty. So what's the.. what's the name Sazerac? What's the significance of that? Is there any, anything that we should know?

Michael Kashey 03:48

Yeah. So like we were saying earlier, by earlier, I mean, like five seconds ago. It's supposedly started with a cognac called Sazerac, which is actually still produced today. But kind of looking through records, Sazerac was actually a really popular name before we ever saw a cocktail... Sazerac cocktail. There was actually a bar here, or I should say, a saloon here in Bismarck, in 1872 called the Sazerac saloon. I think is kind of over where Toasted Frog, is probably on the second floor of the original, the first building that would have been there... but it burned down in the fire. By all, like any evidence that we have, the Sazerac originated in the late 1800s, at a bar called the Sazerac House, which would have been on the edge of the French Quarter, and it would have been their house cocktail. So the reason why we they would call it the Sazerac, is because it was made at the Sazerac House. It was their their house drink.

Connor Brekke 04:53

Is Sazerac a French origin word, or is it...?

Michael Kashey 04:57

Yeah, so there's, there's the cognac company. I did... I was doing a little research on my own research and I found this as a Sazerac shipping company based out of... I wanted to based out of New York or they, they were headquartered in New York. So it was a really popular French name. And we actually do have a bottle of the Sazerac cognac, we actually only have one. So if you're in, here's a little shameless plug, if you're interested in trying that join our tasting club, the Half-Rats Giggle Water Society.

Connor Brekke 05:25

Right, because Sazerac now is an actual company that's specific to this.

Michael Kashey 05:30

Yes. So Sazerac now makes a rye. And... so we'll actually go back a little bit further to a cocktail. And then I promise you this will tie in. So cocktail sugar water, spirit bitters, beginning of the 19th century was going to be made with rye you can start to see bourbon made until the beginning of the 20th century. So early 1900's bourbon kind of started to pass up rye. So you would then have.. in the mid 1800s, a really big like migration of immigrants were coming in Italy from Italy, France, and they'd be bringing with them their spirits, their their native spirits and stuff that they would drink. Vermouth maraschino came in. So then bartenders being kind of the ever evolving people that we are like "Hey, well, maybe if I take this cocktail, I'll m ake it with, you know, for vermouth." They'll throw a little bit of vermouth in here, throw a little maraschino in here, Curacao, whatever they got their hands on. Late 1800s, you start to see old timers get kind of pissed. They said they want their... "I want my cocktail the old fashioned way." So this is where we get the old fashioned. But at this... still at the same time, these big places would be promoting their house cocktail. So that's kind of where sazerac got its name, it was their house cocktail. So it would be a rye, which is once again, it'd be the old fashioned as we know it now. Rye, sugar, bitters, which we use now called Peychaud's, which is going to be kind of a red licorice, herbal, and then they would throw in a little bit of angostura bitters as well, which is going to be a really herbal, earthy, kind of bitters.

Connor Brekke 07:17

I do remember something about absinthe being used sometimes.

Michael Kashey 07:21

Yeah. So the absinthe would be, you would rinse the glass with the absence. So that's going to be the big difference between an old fashioned, a traditional old fashioned, and a Sazerac is going to be this absinthe, rinse. Oh, and there's no ice. Some people look at ice anyways, as a kind of an obstacle to get around. Whereas with the Sazerac, you can just get straight to your drink.

Connor Brekke 07:44

I do remember going to the... Sazerac Museum in New Orleans, and I do remember that little spritz they do with the absence rinse, and I was like, oh, I've never seen that before.

Michael Kashey 07:56

Yep. Yep. We actually were just there a few weeks ago, and I will say they did a really good job kind of balancing the pop culture, I guess, legend, and the actual history. They did do their plugs, supposedly Thomas Handy, who owned one of the Sazerac saloons was the one who made the switch from cognac to rye, but at the same time, you do kind of need to keep these legends alive as well.

Connor Brekke 08:26

Yeah, you need a little balance between...

Michael Kashey 08:28

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 08:28

...legend and truth. Sometimes the truth is boring.

Michael Kashey 08:31

Sometimes it's super interesting, though, too, because we actually do have kind of a good, good idea who invented the Sazerac cocktail, actually. So we don't see it. In name. New Orleans was always really good with documenting their cocktails. And so we don't see the Sazerac cocktail until the... 1899, I believe was the very first time we saw it in print. And it was coming from the Sazerac House, the Sazerac saloon. And there was two bartenders, Vincent Moray and Billy Wilkinson. And they were, they were big for bottling at the time bottling cocktails was the kind of the pinnacle of cocktail technology, which ironically, if any quarantines taught us anything, it's kind of making a comeback, and they are known for their house cocktails. And this is the first time we see this as a rock house cocktail in print.

Connor Brekke 09:29

So that being in print is kind of like setting in stone that it's official.

Michael Kashey 09:32

Yeah, yep. Especially because they were so good at documenting we've we've seen we saw brandy crusta any kind of house cocktail that was really popular in New Orleans, anytime that place would either expand or if they took out an ad they would say you know "come try our house cocktail, this or whatever." So like if Thomas Moriarty is was down in New Orleans in 18... hundred's we would say, you know, "try our house. Try the Tom Moriarty is cocktail."

Connor Brekke 10:01

And so would be born the T&M drink.

Michael Kashey 10:04

Yeah, yeah, maybe. And I don't know how it would it compare to some of their stuff they were drinking then. New Orleans actually, for the most part never really lost their cocktail culture. Unlike the rest of the country most of the country I should say.

Connor Brekke 10:19

It's pretty strong down there. It's an interesting place. There's a lot of history, I guess you can pick up there.

Michael Kashey 10:24

Culinary and cocktail as well.

Connor Brekke 10:29

Sazerac is like the official New Orleans drink, isn't it? Or like..

Michael Kashey 10:34

Yeah, yep. It's definitely most iconic drink of New Orleans. There's a Sazerac bar in the airport.

Connor Brekke 10:41

Yeah? I didn't know that.

Michael Kashey 10:43

Yeah, we uh... I had my last sazerac flying back. And I maybe should have had my last sazerac in town, in New Orleans proper and not at the airport. Ironically, I've still had worse sazeracs.

Connor Brekke 10:57

That's interesting, too. But I believe it. So Sazerac. It has to be a rye, right?

Michael Kashey 11:05

Yes. Yep. Yep.

Connor Brekke 11:06

Rye, can't be anything else?

Michael Kashey 11:07

Rye and Peychaud bitters. So it's gonna have this like kind of rosy, pinkish hue to it. It's a really, it's a pretty drink, and lemon. Can't forget the lemon. The lemon makes or breaks that drink.

Connor Brekke 11:21

Are there any kind of, I guess, alternate preparation methods that are popular? Or is it pretty straightforward?

Michael Kashey 11:29

No, it's pretty, pretty straightforward. We use simple syrup, other places will use, and there's some bartenders down in New Orleans who do use a sugar cube, we use simple syrup just for consistency purposes.

Connor Brekke 11:42

Right.

Michael Kashey 11:43

And honestly, sazerac's gonna taste better in New Orleans.

Connor Brekke 11:46

Is that just because of the locality of rye? Or is it...

Michael Kashey 11:50

There's something there's something mystical about New Orleans.

Connor Brekke 11:54

Okay, I believe it. There's, there's definitely a lot of good vibes down there. Um, for people who don't really drink.. like whiskey, or.... how would you explain them to... like approach it is, or they just flat out gonna pass on it every time it's there?

Michael Kashey 12:11

No, there... you do have to have an open mind with any, especially with any kind of spirit forward cocktail. This sazerac, since it doesn't get ice is going to be a little bit... I don't wanna say harsher, but it's going to be a little little bit of a stiffer drink than an old fashioned, which even though the specs are the same, you're gonna get some extra dilution. You just you have to be ready though, for that kind of burn.

Connor Brekke 12:36

That's, you know, I haven't been a mixed drink person until I came here. And that kind of stuff scared me. It did just because I wasn't used to it, but you do have to anticipate it and it's not terrible. There's a lot of good flavor in there.

Michael Kashey 12:53

Yeah. Even, even if the the alcohol like flavor itself, that alcohol burn is a little much there still there's sweetness in there. There some spice like the rye spice and then there's a... some earthy, herbal ness to it as well.

Connor Brekke 13:07

And sometimes if... like I do remember that one absinthe the one I had, you could kind of get a little bit of that after the rince... I did anyways.

Michael Kashey 13:15

Yeah,you don't you don't actually... so we have talked last time that absinthe is a black licorice spirit. And this it's just a rince, so you shouldn't be tasting the absinthe. You should be smelling that and then the lemon as well. So it should be kind of herbally citrusy nose, too.

Connor Brekke 13:32

I think that's what it was. I think the scent was still...

Michael Kashey 13:35

Yep

Connor Brekke 13:35

...floating around in the glass because it didn't taste like absinthe at all.

Michael Kashey 13:38

No.

Connor Brekke 13:38

It was just kind of like that, hmmm, there is something different about this.

Michael Kashey 13:42

Yep, that's that's what you, that's what you want.

Connor Brekke 13:44

I thought that was pretty... pretty cool, pretty unique. I didn't know that was the thing. I've only seen the rinse with other stuff. So, I don't know I would say if you're in the area and you'd want to try something classic.. shall we say... give it a shot.

Michael Kashey 14:01

Yeah, sazerac is one of our biggest selling... I'd say it's in our top 10 cocktails of all time. And then our top five for classics. We do we do a lot of sazeracs.

Connor Brekke 14:12

Yes. And they're good. They're really good. So, come on down to Thomas Moriarty's if you're in the Mandan... Bismarck Mandan area and get yourself a Sazerac and a glass of New Orleans.

Michael Kashey 14:25

If you're in New Orleans, get yourself a sazerac.

Connor Brekke 14:28

That too. So until next time, cheers.

Connor Brekke 14:34

The Ombibulous is made possible with Castos, giving creators the tools to connect with their audience and community. The music is courteous of Pond5, with over 25 million royalty free stock videos, music, photos, and sound effect, there's something for every creator. Today's episode was recorded at Thomas and Moriarty's in downtown Mandan, North Dakota. I would like to thank Mr. Kashey for his It's time and the use of his facility to make this episode possible. And of course, a big thanks to all our listeners for all of your support. Until next time, cheers.

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On this episode, we kick off the Mixers series with the mysteries of absinthe.

Absinthe

SPEAKERS

Michael Kashey, Connor Brekke

Connor Brekke 00:00

Hello, everyone and welcome back to The Ombibulous, a show where we discuss a variety of topics regarding alcohol. From specific beer styles, distillation, the brewing process, wine, spirits, and even a history of certain liquor laws, there's a fascinating world to explore. On this episode, we kick off the mixer series by exploring the mysteries of absinthe. Joining me today is Michael Kashey of Thomas Moriarty's here in downtown Mandan. I'm your host, Connor Brekke. Let's all raise a glass to The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:49

Alright everybody, welcome back. Today I am joined by Mr. Michael Kashey, owner and procurer of Thomas and Moriarty's here in downtown Mandan. Welcome to the show. Thank you for joining us.

Michael Kashey 01:01

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Connor Brekke 01:03

So today, we're going to kick off something a bit different. It's not about beer. Today, we're going to be talking about absinthe. And absinthe is to me, and to a lot of people kind of a mystery. I honestly didn't even know it was legal until recently. It's kind of got this.. mysteryousness.

Michael Kashey 01:22

Yeah, we get that a lot. There's a lot of misconceptions about absinthe, what it is, what it is, and what it does and doesn't do.

Connor Brekke 01:31

Well, I was hoping today that you could teach everybody a little bit about absinthe. Do you want to break down kind of like a brief history of it for us and what it's all about, and maybe iron out some of these myths and rumors that people hear?

Michael Kashey 01:46

Yeah, we can do a super quick thing. So absent is a it's a black licorice flavored, star anice flavored distilled spirit. It's not a liquor, doesn't have any sugar added to it. That originated in Switzerland in the late 18th century, the first kind of actual references we have to absinthe would have been around 1799. And it.. from there, it spread into France, Belgium, Netherlands and throughout Europe a bit. So absinthe started getting started getting really popular with French soldiers. And a little bit later on in the 19th century, French soldiers in Algeria would be well, obviously, kind of fighting you know, for the, the French. I don't know if you'd call it Empire at the time, but whatever that was, and they would be also fighting malaria. So one of the very popular kind of remedies for malaria was absinthe, and they would do something called absinthe or mixing the called absinthe soup, which sounds super weird, and it kind of is they would water down absinthe with red wine. So after the French conquest of Algeria, they came back to France and they brought with them their love of absinthe. And then it started to kind of grow from there and really started to hit the hit the streets.

Connor Brekke 03:13

Because, the thing about this type of substance back then, as we know it is hard liquor today, it was basically medicine, all this stuff.

Michael Kashey 03:21

Yes, almost all alcohol started, medicinally.

Connor Brekke 03:25

So absinthe has.. kind of these weird myths about it being evil and toxic and all kinds of other like hallucinogenic and....

Michael Kashey 03:36

Yeah, so a lot of that started after... one, it started to get to be really popular. It's a First off, it's a very high proof spirit. So it it's distilled with wormwood, if you want to make absence at home, I highly suggest you don't want that can be super dangerous and to it's not gonna taste good. Wormwood is a very, very bitter herb. And this is supposedly where it gets its hallucinogenic properties. So, it's distilled with Wormwood which is going to lighten off some of that bitterness. And then it is... the Wormwood is added to it a little bit later through some for something called secondary maceration, this is going to kind of give absent its color. I in order for it to stay stable, it has to be high proof. So usually absence running around 118 to 120 proof. So, absinthe started to get really popular and it started to be produced so much that it started get really cheap. Towards the end of the 19th century, a bottle of absinthe actually cost less than a loaf of bread. So, everybody was drinking it. So when you're drinking this high proof of a spirit, you're gonna start to get.. you will start to see some issues with alcoholism. One of the big kind of myths that we get about absence is that it makes you hallucinate. Well, let's not necessarily... that's not necessarily true, but it sort of is. It wasn't that people were hallucinating due to absence. It was they were hallucinating due to like a severe alcoholism.

Connor Brekke 05:11

Right and looking at some of the, I guess more famous drinkers, we have like Van Gogh and Edgar Allan Poe. And you know, he kind of know the personalities of these guys and..

Michael Kashey 05:23

Artists

Connor Brekke 05:24

Yeah, artists

Michael Kashey 05:24

It was very it was really popular with artists, especially in France during that that time. One because it was, one, dirt cheap, and you know, you know, the stereotypes of the starving artist. Yeah, they drank what they could afford.

Connor Brekke 05:40

Enter the absinthe.

Michael Kashey 05:41

Yep.

Connor Brekke 05:42

Now absent is prepared and kind of a unique way. Would you mind running is through the preparation of it. It's kind of a treat to watch, I think. If you don't know or never seen it.

Michael Kashey 05:54

Yeah. Now, I've never actually seen it's produced I should say harvested, traditionally. I do know some people who have.. the're almost like Freddy, Freddy Krueger claws that they use to cut the wormwood. So in order for absinthe to be absent, it's got to be distilled with star anise, fennel, and then wormwood, and it gets its name absinthe from artisma absinthium, which is the.. the grand wormwood that it comes from. So it's distilled with those, and then it goes through that secondary maceration, and then filtered, filter that stuff out.

Connor Brekke 06:35

And then the actual serving is kind of unique with the block of sugar..

Michael Kashey 06:40

Yeah

Connor Brekke 06:40

..dripping down.

Michael Kashey 06:41

So you'll see a lot places will light it on fire. This started to happen in the 1990s a lot with Czech Republic. So while absinthe was essentially banned throughout the rest of the world, eastern countries were... Eastern European countries were kind of making their own Czech Republic It was super famous, but essentially they made wormwood flavored vodka. So one, it didn't taste very good. And I've... that was actually my introduction to absinthe then, for some odd reason I liked it, but once I had real absinthe I haven't been able to go back. Then two, it didn't get this thing that we call the louche. So to drink absinthe traditionally what you want to do is you want to take a little sugar cube, and then slowly drip cold, like ice cold water over to it, and it will go from like a bright green into like a milky opaque kind of color. And that is that color changes called the louche so these Czeck absinthes didn't get that so they're like well, let's see how we can make this still fun. And, enter the the flaming absent, the flaming sugar cube. It ends up giving it a burnt marshmallow taste. And it really strips away a lot of the flavors of absinthe. Absinthe is a pretty complex spirit once it's been diluted. You're gonna get less of that black licorice and a little bit more of the herbal kind of flavors that come out of it.

Connor Brekke 08:13

Yeah, I... I didn't... I've never had absinthe until I came here before and I wasn't expecting the black licorice. You know, I honestly didn't know what to expect. They keep... you know these myths and stuff. I didn't know what it was. It's like some Harry Potter drink or something.

Michael Kashey 08:29

You didn't hallucinate at all, did you?

Connor Brekke 08:32

Not that I know. I did see a Jackalope. But yeah, luckily, there's actually one here so

Michael Kashey 08:39

I've never seen a Jackalope here.

Connor Brekke 08:41

Um, so the legality of absence, like I said, I didn't know it was legal. Like Where did that..

Michael Kashey 08:49

Yeah

Connor Brekke 08:49

so it was leagal at some point?

Michael Kashey 08:50

With that we're gonna have to go, once again back to France. So the 18th... thinking off the top of my head, I want to say it was the 1850s.... the French vineyards got hit by this thing called phylloxera, which is an aphid. This aphid absolutely decimated the wine industry for a good 15-20 years. So during that time, absinthe was already growing in popularity. Wine, cognac, and then all sorts of brandies were basically wiped off. So absinthe, get huge, once the vineyard start to kind of make a comeback. People weren't picking up cognac. They weren't getting wines, they were still drinking absinthe. So the wine lobby essentially ran a pretty crazy smear campaign against absinthe, you know, saying it causes hallucinations. And they did.. there was a he was basically like a lobbyist for the wine industry who was... he was he was a teetotaler. He wanted to ban alcohol outright, but kind of knew that that was not going to happen, which probably should have waited around another 50-60 years because it did in a different country. But he did all sorts of experiments showing the dangers of absinthe he would inject absent directly into lab mice and guinea pigs and all sorts of creatures. And of course, they would convulse and die. And you say, look, this is what absinthe does and well, people bought it. So it was a French economist, I believe, who kind of looked into it, figured out the, the amounts that a person would have to drink, as compared to like the amount of absinthe that he put in to these animals. And in order for a person to hallucinate, they would have to drink about 700 liters of absinthe in one sitting, which you're going to die of alcohol poisoning long before you get to that. It was really shoddy science. And it was honestly a super effective smear campaign.

Connor Brekke 08:58

I was going to say it's like the green scare.

Michael Kashey 11:04

Yeah, so then, absinthe was banned in Switzerland first in I want to say it was 1909 after a farmer, had.. he murdered his family. He killed his daughters and his pregnant wife. And they really singled out the last drink he had was a glass of absinthe. He was also an alcoholic who drank liters of wine a day he drank brandy that day. I don't know how much beer he had. But he had some problems. And they really singled out on the absinthe and essentially got absent banned in Switzerland and then Belgium followed. And then France, not long after.

Connor Brekke 11:45

He's basically the poster child and he started the domino effect.

Michael Kashey 11:49

Yep. There were a few absinthe makers that did actually continue to distill afterwards. Pernod, which is actually a huge brand now, and it was actually ironically, the very first absinthe brand... modern actually, actual brand, moved to Terragon, Spain, which, where it was still legal, and they continued to just produce absinthe until the European Union essentially wiped out all of the French food laws.

Connor Brekke 12:18

That's interesting. I... you know, I again, I had no idea any of this stuff. But it's back. I mean, we're able to drink it now.

Michael Kashey 12:28

Yeah

Connor Brekke 12:29

It must have hit a revival point at some point.

Michael Kashey 12:31

Yeah. Ironically, it was... while it was first legal in Europe, first that started in the 80s. And he started producing it in the 90s. However, in the late 90s, early 2000s, it was actually an American, he was a chemist named Ted breaux... I believe I'm pronouncing that right b-r-e-a-u-x. He is single handedly the reason we have absinthe in America today. He got his hands on a pre-banned bottle of absinthe, and did chemical testing on it to see how much thujon is the chemical that supposedly is hallucinogenic in absinthe, and did testing on it with modern equipment and found out there is far less thujon in it than we had previously thought. And honestly, modern brands now have a lot more, sometimes we'll have a lot more of this chemical in it than pre-ban absinthe did. So he lobbied, he actually had a absent company in France that had their, their product seized, I can't remember the reason why, but he was the only person who ever had the product seized by the French government. And of course, he's an American. Well, he ended up winning a lawsuit against it and getting... actually I don't know if they got their product back. Because it was like destroyed or something like that. Of course, French government didn't pay for it. But there's ironically an American cowboy basically is the reason why we have it. He then lobbied the congress in America to lift the ban on it and in 2007 it finally was lifted.

Connor Brekke 14:02

Well, thanks modern science and cowboys, I guess.

Michael Kashey 14:07

Science prevails... sometimes

Connor Brekke 14:10

Yep, we went from if it weighs more than a duck it's a witch to modern science.

Connor Brekke 14:15

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 14:15

So, that's good. Now everybody can enjoy it. Well, I say everybody but I don't really know many black licorice lovers, but then again, it's kind of hard to find this stuff too... still.

Michael Kashey 14:29

It's easier now.... there's a handful of brands that are easily available here if you're in North Dakota. Unfortunately, that continues to shrink as we continue to lose them, but you can usually find some. There's also cousins then to like herb saint or pastis which are going to be.. those will be liquors, and they're not going to have the black licorice.

Connor Brekke 14:53

So as far as preparation and serving, you can obviously drink it as the way we talk just straight up but, you do different types of cocktails down here. Mix them with other types of things. Are there any pairings or specific ways that you really like to serve absinthe?

Michael Kashey 15:13

Yeah, we have a drink here called the absinthe and sunsets, which is it's take on an Oscar Wilde quote, who was supposedly a big absinthe drinker. Not too much actual evidence proves that he liked that. But it's essentially a absent Negroni. So it's gonna be absent. A sweet vermouth, and then a blitter... sorry, a bitter blood orange liqueur called capuleti. So it's going to be a little bitter little sweet, little herbaceous. It's a really popular drink actually.

Connor Brekke 15:49

I've had it, It's pretty good. Well, we went around the world with absinthe so to speak that a little bit of a history, hopefully busted some myths for those who're listening. If you're interested in absinthe, it's definitely something I would recommend. I mean, I'm not a huge black licorice person... it definitely scared me when I heard that it was black licoricey, but it's not so bad. It's It's a unique drink. It's green. It's, it's fun.

Michael Kashey 16:22

I will say when you drink it the traditional way with the sugar and water, it brings out a lot of the other flavors.

Connor Brekke 16:29

Yeah.

Michael Kashey 16:31

I've found that people will actually like it more that don't like black licorice at all, will be a little more open minded once they've had traditional absinthe.

Connor Brekke 16:41

And it also helps to have somebody who knows what they're doing. So...

Michael Kashey 16:44

Yeah, if you guys know any, if you know anyone, let me know.

Connor Brekke 16:47

If you are local and you do live in the Mandan, North Dakota area, you should definitely come down to Thomas Moriarty's on Main Street and get yourself an absence. So with that, I will leave you guys until next time.

Connor Brekke 17:03

The Ombibulous is made possible with Castos, giving creators the tools to connect with their audience and community. The music is courteous of Pond5, with over 25 million royalty free stock videos, music, photos, and sound effects. There's something for every creator. Today's episode was recorded at Thomas and Moriarty's is in downtown Mandan, North Dakota. I would like to thank Mr. Kashey for his time and the use of his facility to make this episode possible. And of course, the big thanks to all our listeners for all of your support. Until next time... cheers

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On this episode Dylon and I talk about a style of beer with no real rules... the black ale. A slightly hoppy, slightly malty beer style which acts as an open canvas for brewers to play with.

Black Ale

Wed, 8/25 11:10AM • 17:57

SPEAKERS

Connor Brekke, Dylan Schafer

Connor Brekke 00:10

Hello, everyone and welcome back to the Ombibulous, a show where we discuss a variety of topics regarding alcohol. From specific beer styles, distillation, the brewing process, wine, spirits, and even a history of certain liquor laws. There's a fascinating world to explore. On this episode, we continue the taster series with a discussion about the black ale beer style. Joining me today is Dylan Schafer, owner of Dialectic Brewing Company here in Mandan, North Dakota. I'm your host, Connor Brekke. Let's all raise a glass to The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:52

Welcome back, Dylan. I see you've got another darker style of ale for us today.

Dylan Schafer 00:59

Yeah, I figured it's winter time. So we'll we'll stick with drinking some dark beers and tasting some dark beers for now.

Connor Brekke 01:06

That sounds good to me. It's still technically winter.

Dylan Schafer 01:09

Despite the weather It is a beautiful February day, but it's still February. So...

Connor Brekke 01:14

Yes

Dylan Schafer 01:15

Yeah, so today I brought our Stoop Dog black ale. First off the the beer does carry the name from my, a couple of my dogs actually. I have dogs that notoriously just love to lay out on the back porch. No matter the weather. No matter what time of year, the only thing they want to do is just lay out on the stoop. So, hence the stoop dog. One of them is a black lab too. So that's a little bit fitting. But as far as the beer goes, the first thing you'll notice is it is a quite dark beer. Darker than the wee heavy that we talked about on the last beer tasting. And it's got a little bit mellower head on it, not quite as big firm head on it. But it is a nice dark brown, little bit of a reddish hue to it. At a little bit lower light it does come off as just straight black as well. With this beer the color can be a little bit deceiving for a lot of people. Again, it looks like it's gonna be a big dark heavy beer. And it really isn't it's it's a fairly easy drinking beer for, for how dark and how malty it is. So in general, I just kind of want to address the the concept of a black ale. It's it's another one that's a little bit... arguable if it is an actual style or not. If you're familiar with the craft beer world, a lot of the times you'll see black IPAs or Cascadian dark ales. Those two are the same type of thing. It's it's basically a hoppy, dark beer. We did take a really similar approach with this. But when you see the Cascadian dark ales or the black IPAs, they're typically going to be that high Ibu. So high hop bitterness, high hop flavor, high hop aroma. And we took a little bit of different approach with this one. So being as the the New England IPAs, and the hazy IPAs have been ridiculously popular lately. The whole thing with the New England IPAs is they are a lower bitterness IPA, so you get all the flavor and aroma of those hops, but not all the bitterness, the harsh bitterness to go with it. And that was kind of the approach that we took with a black ale.

Connor Brekke 03:36

As I'm sipping on it, because we each have our own, I...there's a huge difference. Well, I don't want to say a huge difference, but the we heavy, you can lift it up to your nose, smell it, you do not really get that hop at all... this one you do, it's not overly powering like, you know, a regular IPA, but it's definitely there. You definitely get that floral of it. But then you also get the characteristics of the we heavy like it's a darker maltier... with the lighting, of course it will change because it looks dark in one situation. And I made the comment earlier that it's kind of Burgundy in our current lighting situation, but still really beautiful carmely color complex tastes that's really good.

Dylan Schafer 04:25

And it's, again, it's it's another one of our beers too, that I that I think has quite a bit of complexity it is I would consider it to be fairly hot forward despite being a dark beer with a substantial malt character. It is pretty hot forward on the flavor aroma. But you do still get some of those richer malt characteristics that chocolate that little bit of carmel and toffee and some of those richer malt characteristics. And then the hop character really, really shines through the second you take a sip or even Get it up to your nose, you'll start noticing that hop character. And for this one, we do use some really, really classic US hop varietals. This is all Centennial for bittering, and then all Cascade for late edition hops. Realistically, there's not very much in there for the for the bittering hops, because it is only about 20 IBUs. So it drinks as a lot hoppier than 20 IBUs but again, you don't get that quite as harsh bitterness of the IPAs in there. And the cascade as the late addition, it gives you some really nice kind of light Piney notes, a little bit of citrus, grapefruit, stuff like that. A little herbal note to it as well.... herbal kind of floral note to it. And it's Yeah, it's a really, really fun style because it's, it's kind of the black sheep of a style as you put it earlier. And, you know, if you're gonna enter a beer judging competition with the black ale is not really a style in any competition, you may be able to enter it into a black IPA or cascadian dark ale, but you'll likely be faulted because it isn't bitter enough. You know, for the listeners who aren't familiar with the bitterness measurement on beer, it's going to be the scale of IBUs. And that stands for international bitterness unit. And that scale does technically go from zero to 1000. However, the human palate depending on the person, that human palate can't detect more than about 100 to 120. So say you drank a beer that was 400 IBUs, and you drink a beer that was 120 IBUs, the 400 IBU would not taste any bitter to a human. So a lot of the beers you see that are kind of on the high end of that IBU spectrum. Some of your American IPAs, your West Coast IPAs, they're gonna come in around that 75 to 100 IBU range. And this black ale comes in at way, way down there at 20 IBUs. And the funny thing with the IBU scale is, it's indicative of the hop bitterness, it's not going to really tell you much about the hop character. So to put it in perspective, when we were drinking, the wee heavy, the wee heavy is right around 36 to 40 IBUs, but actually has a lot more hoppy bitterness than the black ale does. But as we mentioned, you get no hop character out of the wee heavy at all. And you really don't get any bitterness out of the wee heavy at all, on the wee heavy has that, you know, that nice rich malt character to kind of mask some of that bitterness and keep it restrained. This not having quite as much of that malt character is really going to let that 20 IBUs and that hot flavor and aroma shine through to be the showcase of the beer. And again, the malt side of it is pretty much very, very light additions of dark malt to give it color, and just a little bit of complexity. So you'll you'll get some hints of kind of coffee and chocolate in there. But for the most part, those hops will quickly take over the palate.

Connor Brekke 08:21

Yeah, it's... it definitely hits you, but like I say, it wasn't it's not like a normal IPA, where that's pretty much all you get. You definitely get the maltiness of this. And I really enjoy that. It's kind of like the best of both worlds. It's like a hybrid beer kind of. You always get those.... you have the people who are like, super IPA. It's like "I wanted the max bitterness." So they want the triple IPAs. And you know, I think this is kind of a best of both worlds. Really.

Dylan Schafer 08:51

I agree. I mean, it's like you took a porter and an IPA. And you took all the great things you love about a porter and all the great things you love about an IPA, and then got rid of the stuff you don't like so much. And that's what you're left with. And it's it's kind of funny too, because despite being heavily hopped beer in a pretty hop forward beer. I have a lot of customers who notoriously will not touch hoppy beer. They avoid IPAs and stuff like it's the plague. But they seem to really really love thisbeer.

Connor Brekke 09:24

And one of those customers was me I'm still trying to get into IPAs...but I will, I will admit that I have not been a hoppy person. But this this one's definitely helping me find my hot wings, I guess.

Dylan Schafer 09:37

Yeah, it's and I like it too... the hops are not really sharp hops. You know, they're, they give you some really, really soft, palatable bitterness instead of that sharp bitey bitterness. And again, just nice subtle notes of grapefruit and pine and a little bit of a floral character in there.

Connor Brekke 09:57

I suppose the nice thing about this is since it's not really an official style, the sky is kind of limit.

Dylan Schafer 10:04

It is exactly and so you can, you know, if you're brewing a black a quote unquote black Ale, I mean, I've seen other companies market their black ales and they brew them with a heavy dose of cold pressed coffee or aged on coffee beans. You can do them with even more late addition hops, you can make a black ale that has your 20 IBUs but doesn't have quite as much hot flavor and aromas. You're really left with a pretty wide range, being as it's not really a style kind of kind of falls in between styles in my mind. But and sometimes that's fun. You know, I do love brewing beers that have traditional style guidelines. We have quite a few on tap right now our Hefeweisen our Berliner Weisse things like those that have pretty strict style guidelines. And when I brew those styles, I keep pretty well to those style guidelines, especially those good historic recipes. But this year kind of left to do with whatever you want with it as a brewer and that's a lot of fun, too.

Connor Brekke 11:09

It's always nice to have a blank canvas to work with sometimes.

Dylan Schafer 11:12

It is yeah, you know, sometimes I, I love our Berliner vise and it's super, super popular sour beer. They're really really simple beers to brew. The you know being as the style guidelines call for 50% Pilsner malt and 50% wheat malt, you don't have a lot of room to play with your malt bill on it. And then you know, the Rhythm Rug is absolutely... that's our Berliner Weisse.. sorry, that Berliner Weisse is not a hoppy beer by any means, you know, you're only going to see it at nine to 10 IBUs, and no perceivable hop flavor at all. So again, you really don't have much to play around with their, you got a nice lightweight beer with a clean lactic sour... that's at. This you can just play so much more with and you can mix up your hop varietals of a black ale. So instead of getting that piney citrus character, you could use some of the newer age hops, where you really draw those tropical fruits and those stone fruits and stuff like that. And I think all that would go really, really well in that nice darker malt base beer.

Connor Brekke 12:22

Basically the mixtape of beer.

Dylan Schafer 12:24

Exactly. And I'm a sucker for a good mix tape, so...

Connor Brekke 12:27

Oh, yeah, definitely.

Dylan Schafer 12:29

Yeah, and this is, is another one of those beers too, that when you drink it, it is deceiving because you expect it to have, when you look at it, you expect a bigger body, and you know, something that's going to fill you up really quickly. But it's also one that you could sit and drink quite a few of and you're not going to be overly full or uncomfortable. I will say this, um, our version of it is 6.7%. So maybe you don't want to drink too many of them. But that's kind of another thing with it being an ambiguous style to is, realistically, no one could fault you if you brewed a black ale that was 4% alcohol. Or if you wanted to brew one that was 8% alcohol. Ours happens to you know, be a little on the higher side at almost seven. But still very, very drinkable. And, and that malt character does help to hide that alcohol as well. At least when I drink it, I wouldn't in my mind think that it's an almost 7% beer. I would I would peg it as "oh yeah, you know, drinks like a five, five and a half percent beer." That malt character is just enough to keep some of that booziness hidden in there.

Connor Brekke 13:38

Yeah, definitely goes down a lot... a lot smoother I would say. The wee have definitely you can feel it. It's... well it's wee heavy. It's from our previous episode. This one this one's a lot easier drinking I think.

Dylan Schafer 13:54

You know, and on those those we heavies and those higher gravity stouts and barley wines and stuff like that, you know, you can taste the alcohol warmth and you can feel the alcohol warmth. And this you really don't get that, you probably won't notice the alcohol until you're maybe two or three pints into it and go to stand up and walk to the restroom.

Connor Brekke 14:14

And at that point it's best to call taxi or Uber or somebody.

Connor Brekke 14:21

No, I definitely like this style just because it's a little more... open to artistic interpretation.

Dylan Schafer 14:29

And it's fun because we you know, in our first episode when we talked about that wee heavy, that one has a little bit of wiggle room on the style guidelines. And it's probably my favorite beer on our tap list. This has a lot of wiggle room on it style guidelines because there aren't style guidelines. And also one of my favorite beers on the menu. You usually when I have customers ask me what my recommendation is. Those are the two beers I list. I love the black ale and I love the we heavy. Don't get me wrong, there are customers that I point in another direction. If they're not keen on the darker beers or the hoppier beers, I'll point them elsewhere. But as far as my personal preference, definitely one of my top favorite beers is that black ale.

Connor Brekke 15:22

Well, I definitely like it quite a bit.

Dylan Schafer 15:24

We'll convert you to the hop side yet, Connor.

Connor Brekke 15:26

Oh, I'm slowly getting there. I'm trying. For listeners at home... I definitely go to breweries often. And I definitely... that's, I always get one I like... like, I always get something that I don't think like, because you don't know if you don't know.

Dylan Schafer 15:42

Exactly.

Connor Brekke 15:43

That's part of the fun of trying new stuff.

Dylan Schafer 15:45

Yeah, you're never going to know until you try it. And I mean, I I'm not gonna lie to you, when I first started drinking craft beer, I wouldn't touch the hoppy beers and the IPAs. I started with some darker malt forward stuff and really got into the sours. And it really wasn't until I started brewing beer that I started getting into the hoppy beer, there was something about that aroma when I added the hops to the boiling kettle and all you could just smell it all in that steam. Something about that aroma drew me into starting to drink some of the hoppier beers and I love all the other beer styles as well. But I do love me some hoppy beers.

Connor Brekke 16:26

And yes, we will definitely be touching up more on some of these other styles and future episodes. But, wrapping things up with this black ale... I would say it's a perfect middle ground. And if you're curious about it, check out your local liquor stores. Maybe you've got a brewery that does their take on a particular black ale or if you're local come on into dielectric and try their Stoop Dog.

Dylan Schafer 16:50

Yeah.

Connor Brekke 16:51

I'm gonna take my last sip here.

Dylan Schafer 16:53

Yeah, and again, I I actually just brewed another batch of this beer the other day. So we'll have it on tap for a while. So if you find yourself in Mandan, come on in and have a pint.

Dylan Schafer 17:03

Indeed, nice weather. Hopefully it lasts. So until next time... cheers.

Connor Brekke 17:14

The Ombibulous is made possible with Castos, giving creators the tools to connect with their audience and community. The music is courteous of Pond5. With over 25 million royalty free stock videos, music, photos, and sound effects, here's something for every creator. Today's content was recorded here at Dialectic Brewing Company in Mandan, North Dakota. I would like to thank Dylan Schafer for the use of his facility and time to create this episode. And of course, a big thanks to all our listeners for all of your support. Until next time, cheers

View Details

On this first episode of The Ombibulous, Dylan and I discuss the Scottish Wee Heavy beer style.We also provide some pointers on how new craft beer drinkers can find what they're looking for.

Scottish Wee Heavy

SPEAKERS

Connor Brekke, Dylan Schafer

Connor Brekke 00:07

Hello, everyone and welcome to the first episode of the Ombibulous, a show where we discuss a variety of topics regarding alcohol. From specific beer styles, distillation, the brewing process, wine, spirits, and even a history of certain liquor laws, there's a fascinating world to explore. On this episode, we kick off the taster series with a discussion about the Scottish wee heavy beer style. Joining me today is Dylan Shafer, owner of Dialectic Brewing company here in Mandan, North Dakota. I'm your host, Connor Brekke, let's all raise a glass to The Ombibulous.

Connor Brekke 00:53

Welcome back to the show. Dylan, thank you for joining us. Got some good stuff to talk about today. What do you have for us?

Dylan Schafer 01:00

Yeah, so I brought our wee heavy Scotch ale, it is called The Helpful Shepherd wee heavy.

Connor Brekke 01:06

And we each have our own glass of it. It is a very beautiful leathery brown color.

Dylan Schafer 01:12

Start things off, right with a quick sip of it you know, get it fresh in your memory.

Connor Brekke 01:16

Right, right.

Dylan Schafer 01:17

Yeah, s o I mean, definitely the first thing you're going to notice on this beer is it does have kind of an off white, really thick head when you first pour the beer, of course. And it does have that nice off white to kind of tan colored head. And then a beautiful rich kind of almost Auburn color to it. Like you said that nice red, leathery color to it.

Connor Brekke 01:37

Just like the couch we're sitting on right now kind of.

Dylan Schafer 01:40

Exactly.

Connor Brekke 01:41

It's definitely a bit stronger. Hence the name we heavy.

Dylan Schafer 01:44

It is Yep. And this is currently the strongest beer we have on our tap lineup. It comes in at eight and a half percent. So it's nothing that's going to knock you on your butt too hard. But it does have a little bit of alcohol warmth to it, that's for sure.

Dylan Schafer 02:00

And this beer does have real special place in my heart. It's kind of been, I've had a long history of brewing this beer. So I'm sure we'll get into a little bit more of the history of my experience with this beer in another episode yet, too.

Connor Brekke 02:14

Yep. For the listeners. Stay tuned, we got some great stuff coming up.

Dylan Schafer 02:18

Yeah, and I guess to start with, the first thing I always get when I go into tasting this beer, is you're gonna start off with obviously a really rich, sweet malt character. The beer does finish out at a higher terminal gravity. So it has quite a bit of that residual sweetness left in there. You get a lot of those kind of rich carmely characters, some chocolate, carmel toffee, things like that. The yeast does provide a nice little sweet fruity ester to almost dates or raisins character in there.

Connor Brekke 02:49

So how far back does this style go roughly?

Dylan Schafer 02:51

Well, Scottish... Scottish beer styles in general, do date back as far as 5000 years, the Scotch Ale and Scottish ales that we're familiar with today in the craft beer industry really date back to about the 1800s. There is kind of a few different styles that fall within that scotch ale. Traditionally, in Scotland, they range from basically how expensive the beer was. So you had your Scottish lights, your heavies, your exports, and then your we heavies being the biggest stuff. A lot of times, you'll see to them referred to as 60, 70, 80 and 90 shilling beers. And that just is a reference to what the price of those beers costs. So that's a lot of how they break it down. The we heavy being the biggest and most expensive in that realm. And that one usually comes in pretty much over 6% is kind of a style guideline on that one that you got to be over 6% for it to be a wee heavy. And you're definitely going to notice there's not a lot of hop character to this beer. It's really reminiscent of kind of the Scottish version of like an English barley wine. So you get that real rich.

Connor Brekke 04:01

Yes, it definitely has that

Dylan Schafer 04:03

Big rich malt character, just enough hops to kind of keep everything balanced on there for sure. Yeah, it's just a it's a great winter style. It's I guess for me, it's a great any time of year style. J ust got to do it in moderation.

Connor Brekke 04:16

A lot of perople would agree with you. Beer is good anytime of the year.

Dylan Schafer 04:18

And I wouldn't argue with those people one bit. Yeah, so traditionally, as far as brewing this style of beer, there is going to be some unique aspects to it. One of the big things where you get that nice rich carmel character from is coming somewhat from the malts. But we also do a very, very extensive boil on this one. So this particular beer does get 120 minute boil on it. A lot of the industry standard on most beers is going to be about a 60 minute boil. So this is boiled for double the amount of time and what that does is it kind of helps to create some kettle carmelization that very, very rigorous boil for a long time starts to carmelize some of those grain sugars th at you have

Dylan Schafer 05:00

than the wort and that gives it that really nice rich character.

Connor Brekke 05:03

Yeah, that beautiful, kind of maple syrupy

Dylan Schafer 05:07

Yeah

Connor Brekke 05:08

color

Dylan Schafer 05:08

Yep. Yeah, you get kind of that Maple syrupy little bit of kind of light molasses color to it.

Dylan Schafer 05:17

Yeah, and I guess there is a pretty wide variety too, when you see people brewing the scotch Ale,

Connor Brekke 05:35

In today's beer market, you are going to see scotch sales and wee heavies, pretty much used interchangeably as being the kind of heavy end of those Scottish Ale beers. So your Scottish lights, everything like that.

Connor Brekke 05:49

There'll be labeled as a Scottish ale or a 60 shilling or whatever. The we heavies and Scotch ales are going to kind of be used interchangeably to refer to the biggest version of it the highest alcohol version of it.

Connor Brekke 06:03

Okay, I was kind of curious about that myself.

Connor Brekke 06:06

Yeah. And the name wee have, he actually comes from some particular brewers in Edinburgh, and they would serve this beer was typically served in a very, very small bottle, you know, usually like a six to eight ounce bottle. And so it was a wee bottle of the Scottish heavy. That's where that kind of term we heavy comes from.

Connor Brekke 06:28

Okay, that paints a pretty cool picture, in one's mind.

Dylan Schafer 06:31

Yeah.

Dylan Schafer 06:32

A little bit of history backstory on how that, name has kind of come about. And again, you do see them used interchangeably. Some brewers are gonna market theirs exclusively a Scotch ale. And you'll never see don't refer to it as a wee heavy. Even as far as like the BJCP, the beer judge certification program, if you enter beer to be judged in their program, they lump the scotch ale and the we heavy all together. So again, it's kind of an ambiguous style. But for the most part, if you see those terms, you're going to be getting the high alcohol, fuller bodied heavy version of that scotch ale.

Connor Brekke 07:10

So it's kind of like a tomato tomahto Potato Potahto.

Dylan Schafer 07:13

Exactly

Connor Brekke 07:14

But, everybody has their own little play on how they want to do it.

Dylan Schafer 07:17

And a lot of breweries today will use just what markets better. For me, I again, ours is called the Helpful Shepherd. I personally think the Helpful Shepherd we heavy markets better than the Helpful Shepherd scotch ale. So a lot of people will pick which name just kind of flows better and markets better for their, whatever their marketing campaign happens to be with that beer.

Connor Brekke 07:38

Yeah, that's a massive part of sales and everything.

Dylan Schafer 07:41

Exactly.

Connor Brekke 07:42

Just how you word it.

Dylan Schafer 07:43

And our we heavy does, the one we brew here at Dialectic does have some unique components to it. there's kind of two categories, you'll tend to see on the wee heavy line, either just a classic, wee heavy or a lightly smoked, wee heavy. We do a lightly smoked wee heavy. There is a huge argument if that is acceptable in traditional Scottish brewing to use a smoked malt. I like the character that a pete smoked malt gives it, and it's not an overly smoky beer. The idea is you want to find kind of the right balance, anything smokier than this you would likely categorize as a smoked beer instead of a wee heavy, but it gives you just that little bit of earthy, smoky character, a little peat moss smoke character in there. And I think it adds to the complexity of an already very, very complex beer.

Connor Brekke 08:34

Right and then for lovers of like Laphroaig, or any type of pete smoked liquor,

Dylan Schafer 08:41

Yep,

Connor Brekke 08:41

it definitely is reminiscent of that.

Dylan Schafer 08:43

Yeah, you get the you know, you get the sweetness, obviously, of that heavy malt forward beer. But it really doesn't finish to sweet either, you get that fairly dry finish with that little bit of smoke in there. And I do think that for some of those, some of the whiskey drinkers, some of the scotch drinkers that that is an appealing character as they're transitioning over to beer as well.

Connor Brekke 09:05

It's definitely a good middle ground. Like if you don't, if you're not sure what you want to get into. Try this, if you like, like the scotch in the hard alcohol world, give this a shot, you know.

Dylan Schafer 09:17

And this one is fun, too, because apart from that pete smoked character... I'm not a huge scotch drinker myself. I have family members that are, and they always explain the different types of scotches to me as you know, you have some that are going to be a little fruity or a little sweeter. And then you got your ones that are going to be a little bit smokier and a little bit drier. The nice thing about this beer is that it can kind of appeal to both of those types of scotch drinkers. You do get that slightly dry, smoky finish on it. But then, for ours, you get a little bit of that yeast ester in there to that kind of rasin and dates character that's reminiscent of one of those fruity or richer scotches as well.

Connor Brekke 09:57

Basically, it's the best of both worlds in my opinion.

Connor Brekke 10:00

I'm all for that too. This is my... I hate to say it because it is kind of like picking a favorite child. But this is probably my favorite beer that I brew. I have been brewing it for a long, long time, and it just holds a special spot in my heart. It's the we heavies are one of the styles that I fell in love with when I even first started drinking craft beer.

Connor Brekke 10:23

I wasn't a big hoppy beer drinker, I liked the malt forward beers. And I fell in love with the Scotch ales and the wee heavies, because they just have so much complexity and so much character, without being an overly hopped beer.

Connor Brekke 10:36

That's generally what I like. I mean, I'm a huge sour person. But I, I don't dislike IPAs, I'm still trying to find the ones that I really like. But I've always enjoyed something like this, it's more along like, possibly a fine wine, or a really nice scotch or something that just kind of rounds out everything that doesn't really hit you with one overpowering characteristic or another. This one definitely is very well rounded out.

Dylan Schafer 11:06

And I think you hit the nail on the head there. I think the beauty of the Scotch ale is that there's not any one dominant characteristic that's just in your face. In my mind, the style is all about nuance, you want to get a lot of different flavors and a lot of stuff going on. And you don't really want them overpowering each other, you want to be able to pick all of that up on the palate as you sip the beer. And it truly is it good sipping beer, especially because as you cradle that glass and warm it up a little bit, those flavors just come out more and more and more in it.

Connor Brekke 11:38

And you don't want to chug it because of the high alcohol content too. Or maybe you do. Maybe you have a designated driver. And that's, that's fine.

Dylan Schafer 11:45

Or you're sitting at home around the bonfire. And I mean, it's a really good one for sitting around the fire. That's for sure.

Connor Brekke 11:50

This is definitely a good, in my mind, fall campfire beer.

Dylan Schafer 11:54

And that is, we typically brew this beer, we only brew it once a year. And we typically brew it come fall time because yeah, the high alcohol does make it a great winter beer. But in my mind, like you said, sitting around the campfire in the fall out camping, and that is the ideal situation for this beer. And so we usually try to release it right around that kind of late fall time. Which can be kind of a mystery when that's going to hit us here in North Dakota, but..

Connor Brekke 12:21

It comes eventually.

Dylan Schafer 12:23

Yeah,

Connor Brekke 12:23

It does get here.

Dylan Schafer 12:24

You know, and this year, we got a great extended one.

Connor Brekke 12:26

Might only be one day, it could be a month, who knows.

Dylan Schafer 12:30

Yep.

Connor Brekke 12:30

That's why you got to have everything ready for it when it does show up.

Dylan Schafer 12:33

Agreed.

Dylan Schafer 12:34

Yeah, and in general, I would just say that this is, I mean, it's a really, really fun style, again, to someone who's looking to get into the scotch ale style. Be careful when you're out trying to tap the tap room, you know, make sure to look at its ABV and stuff like that. You'll probably find some of them that are clocking in around that 6% range. And, you know, you can maybe have a couple more of them than coming in at the eight and a half 9-10 percent range. I've seen them as high as 10, 11, 12%.

Dylan Schafer 13:01

But it is a really fun style to try to get into. Especially for a new craft beer drinker. It's not, it's not too assaultive. on any of the flavors, it's well rounded. It's complex. It's nuanced. That's all of my favorite things in one package, that's for sure.

Connor Brekke 13:17

Yeah, definitely. And the more craft places I go to, you know, I've learned that you can genuinely talk to the bartender, sometimes the owner or head brewer might even be there. Just ask questions. If you're, if you want to know, I have never been told no, I don't want to talk to you or anything like that. They usually always love what they do. They, they know what they do. So if you're curious, if you... if you want to know more about a style, or if you just don't know where to start, you know, they'll ask you generally you'll get asked some questions like, "Well, what do you like?" Well, if you don't know, then just pick something. "Well, what's that one on the board there? Tell me about that one." So that's how I've been getting into a lot more different types of craft beer, just striking up conversation, and it does help that Dylan does own a brewery,

Connor Brekke 14:07

and I do come here very often. So...

Dylan Schafer 14:09

And apart from brew, and I'm usually down in the tap room working to and I mean, I personally love talking with people about beer. Even when it's people who come in for their very first time. They've never had craft beer before. You know, they might not really know what they like or what they want. But I really enjoy to I'll ask people, you know, what do you drink in general apart from beer, what do you drink? Do you drink coffee? Do you drink cider at all? Do you drink juice, tea, you know, any of these things that just kind of can point me in the right direction of someone's palate. And this one, this beer really does cover a lot of bases. If you like drinking a dry red wine, this has some of those nice tannic rich characteristics of a dried red wine apart it's a little sweeter obviously but

Dylan Schafer 14:59

again, this just

Dylan Schafer 14:59

checks a lot of boxes and I find some folks who are really not craft beer drinkers you think would steer away from the eight and a half percent big full charactered beer on the menu. But I get a lot of fairly new craft beer drinkers come in and they love this beer just as much as the the well seasoned drinkers do so.

Connor Brekke 15:19

Yep, I've watched plenty of people come in to this place and just... no clue. You know, you don't know what you don't know. Then, as the days weeks and months go by, they're always back. "Alright, I'm ready for this new one. Let's, let's see what you got." It's, it's always nice to see people's minds getting opened up to the world of craft beer. You know, it's there's a lot more than, and I'm not knocking against it, but like the cheap box stuff.

Dylan Schafer 15:44

Yep.

Connor Brekke 15:44

If that's your thing, then cool. Nothing wrong with that. But, there's a very, very big world out there to explore.

Dylan Schafer 15:51

And I think you touched on something too there. There's no reason to be ashamed. If you like drink in your domestic light beer, you don't need to be ashamed and worried about going into a brewery out of shame. I noticed plenty of times in here that we have people come in and I'll ask them what they normally drink for beer. And they usually get a very ashamed look on their face and say, "Oh, you're not going to like to hear this. But I drink X, Y and Z of the domestic light beers." And I always tell him I I occasionally have the domestic light beers too. I always got a Pilsner on our board. That's a nice, light, easy drinker. There's nothing to be ashamed in what your tastes are. And odds are no matter what you like, the craft beer industry can really provide some great outlets for you.

Connor Brekke 16:36

Yep, that's one thing again, when you go into these craft beers, they usually have something, like you said a Pilsner or something lighter, that's more of like the widespread mainstream kind, but it's their own individual take on it. And...

Dylan Schafer 16:51

Exactly.

Connor Brekke 16:52

it usually doesn't scare people away when you have like a triple, sour, milkshake IPA, blahh you know when the name is like...

Dylan Schafer 17:01

Double dry hopped

Connor Brekke 17:02

three paragraphs long

Connor Brekke 17:03

It's like, it's like anything, just start small.

Dylan Schafer 17:06

And I will say this to you know, the wee heavy branch of the Scottish ales, they may be a little much for some people starting out. But if you're looking to get into craft beer, and you see a Scottish light, or a Scottish export beer, even on tap, they're a really good place to go. They're not too in your face. They're a malt forward beer, so you don't get that really punchy hoppy character. I mean, for any of the non craft beer drinkers out there, most of your domestic basic beers are not going to be hop forward, they are a malt forward, clean beer. And a lot of the Scottish sales though Scottish lights and stuff like that, their lower alcohol percentage, I mean, the the Scottish lights and kind of the breakdown I had mentioned earlier in this episode, the light heavy export, and wee heavy categorization. So that's the Scottish light or the 60 shilling Scottish ale is going to come in under three and a half percent. So it's a really easy one, it's not going to get you in too much trouble. The next step up that Scottish heavy, even with the term being a Scottish heavy, it's still only between three and a half and 4% alcohol. And then you get your export or you're 80 shilling beer, that's going to be that four to five and a half percent range. And then your we heavies are the 90 shillings are going to be up there over 6%. So some of those lighter Scottish beers are a really good way if you're new into the craft beer world, they're a really good way to kind of start breaking that ice a little bit and venturing out. Don't be afraid they are going to typically be a little darker. And I always tell people when they come in and sample beers even like our Irish Red Ale, don't let the color put you off. It's not a big heavy beer. It's it's still really well balanced and really quite easy drinking and I find a lot of those lighter Scottish ales to be the same story. They are quite easy drinking refreshing beers.

Dylan Schafer 19:04

The wee heavy is obviously going to be a little more full bodied, a little thicker, a little heavier. And that can be intimidating to some newer folks. But I think in general, those Scottish sales and Scotch ales is a really, really good place for craft beer drinkers to get a start.

Connor Brekke 19:19

Cheers to that.

Dylan Schafer 19:21

Amen.

Connor Brekke 19:22

Well, I would say you covered quite a bit of ground there with that one. Definitely hope more people can come out and experience yours. And if you can't come all the way out to Mandan, North Dakota, try looking at your local liquor store or maybe you got a local place that makes their own, I would definitely give it a shot.

Dylan Schafer 19:43

Absolutely. They and they are a fairly popular style. You'll see him around a lot of craft brewers are doing them and I see him in a lot of liquor stores too. So I think if you're craving one and want to try the style out, I think there's an option out there for you to get into it for sure.

Connor Brekke 19:59

Definitely.

Connor Brekke 20:00

Well, this was a great first episode and I appreciate the listeners out there for tuning in. And I appreciate all the support from everybody else. Especially, Dylan letting me use his place to film.

Dylan Schafer 20:15

Absolutely I'm I'm always here doing something. So sometimes it's fun to get away from keg cleaning and sit down and talk to beer for a little while.

Connor Brekke 20:22

Indeed, and we got a lot of topics coming up. So until next time, cheers.

Connor Brekke 20:28

The Ombibulous is made possible with Castos, giving creators the tools to connect with their community and audience. The music is courteous of Pond5, with over 25 million royalty free stock videos, music, photos, and sound effects. There's something for every creator. Today's content was recorded here at Dialectic Brewing Company in Mandan, North Dakota.

Connor Brekke 20:55

I would like to thank Dylan Shaffer for the use of his facility and time to create this episode. And of course, a big thanks to all our listeners for all of your support. Until next time, cheers.