Plenary Matters: Recent Episodes

Geraldine Doogue

Plenary Matters will follow an important gathering of the Catholic Church in Australia which will influence the future of the institution. The Plenary Council will be held in October 2021, 84 years after the last event. In that (long) break, the Church has been swamped by crises. Most Catholics have given up on regular mass. One of those who has held on is prominent Australian broadcaster Geraldine Doogue. Join Geraldine in this daily podcast as she talks to other Catholics who hope - as she does so fervently - that the Church will 'resurrect' itself.

Google synodality, then discuss: how can Catholicism attract modern searchers? Geraldine goes back to two ‘Young and the Restless’ guests from last year, Grace Brennan and Joe Wehbe, to explore how they each think the church can better serve diverse communities.

In regional Australia Grace sees a parallel between empty shopfronts and empty churches, in need of creative solutions to arrest decline. For Joe, it’s the individuals who can hold communities together and are often unaware of their influence on those around them who emerge as the true leaders. But how do people become the protagonists and not just passive recipients, as the recent World Youth Day in Portugal also showed?

Plenary Matters will return in October for a new series during the synod in Rome.

Further reading: Austin Ivereigh's article on World Youth Day, 'A Church with room for everyone,' La Croix

Thanks for your feedback! Go to Plenary Matters Facebook page.

How does the church engage creatively with the modern world? For Richard Lennan, who did his doctorate in Austria on Karl Rahner, looking to the future to see how we should be in the present has been the project of his theological life for nearly four decades. This is the 'Gaudium et spes' approach to the world: neither naïve nor fearful about the future, but always moving ourselves towards God rather than reducing God to our place and time.

Now professor at Boston College teaching the next generation of theologians, he wants church leaders to better support these lay women and men in bridging the gulf between theology and the church. He thinks Francis should hold a synod on the role of theology, which he sees as the antidote to the growing polarisation in the church and society.

Further reading:

Richard's new book, Tilling the Church: Theology for an Unfinished Project (Liturgical Press)
Richard's article on the Plenary Council (abstract only without subscription)
Massimo Faggioli on 'The great displacement of theology' in La Croix.

Your feedback very welcome via the Facebook page Plenary Matters!

The restoration of women to the diaconate is the urgent issue of our time, says Dr Phyllis Zagano. How many of us even understand the essence of deacons’ roles: its emphasis on service but also its impressive history in the life of the church. The early church ordained deacons to provide vital pastoral and social services. Deacons could be made bishops and, in a few cases, even made pope! Deacons disappeared into the priesthood after the 12th century until the Second Vatican Council restored the diaconal ministry, but so far not for women.

Until a woman can stand alongside the Pope in St Peter’s, proclaiming the Gospel and preaching, the church will remain silent on the dignity of all humans, Phyllis Zagano believes. Francis has introduced women into managerial functions of the church, and the issue of women’s ministerial roles, including the diaconate, is on the agenda for the synod in Rome. Could the stained glass ceiling be about to break open, restoring women to the centre of the church?

Further reading:

Phyllis Zagano's Commonweal article on women deacons
National Catholic Reporter review of Zagano's new book Just Church: Catholic Social Teaching, Synodality and Women

See also two Australian resources: Liturgy on the margins on diaconal ministry and the Australian Women Preach podcast.

Thanks for listening! Let us know your thoughts via the Plenary Matters Facebook page.

The future church must be more incarnational, says Professor Massimo Faggioli, if it is to respond to the needs of modern Catholics. That is the big question on the table at the upcoming synod in Rome: who will be the ministers in this church?

Critics of the synod reject what they see as a ‘paperwork church’ – a technocracy dressed in any ideological guise. The church is less centralised than it was during Vatican II, but the tone struck so far in this synod has also been different from Vatican II: more respectful, less radical, more hopeful perhaps?

Further reading: Massimo's recent articles in La Croix, 'The Synod as a spiritual response to the fantasies' and 'Understanding the anti-synodal sentiment and tactics.'

Feedback very welcome via the Facebook page Plenary Matters.

Australia’s Plenary Council set the scene for the global synod as onlookers at home and in Rome wondered if the Australian church would emerge intact. Now it’s the turn of some of our seasoned Council members, Sr Clare Condon, Emeritus Professor John Warhurst and Francis Sullivan to reflect on their disappointments and hopes in a synodal church.

Both the working document for the synod and the list of people who will participate in the meetings in Rome have the makings of a meeting like no other in church history. But will the restless movement that we are invited to join lead to a church that is still recognisably Catholic? Can diversity hold us together in the end?

Further reading:

Instrumentum Laboris (Working document) for the first assembly of the Synod
Massimo Faggioli’s piece in La Croix, ‘What the list of Synod members tells us about the current state of the Church’
Reflections on the working document by Fr Bill Uren SJ and John Warhurst in Eureka Street Thanks for listening! You can send feedback via the Facebook page Plenary Matters.

Here is the promised bonus episode in this series.

It offers a very rich---and bracingly realistic set of observations---about a Council from a seasoned Church participant, Fr David Ranson.

He was secretary to the Council and deeply absorbed, as you'll hear, in the lead-up, in the events of the week itself and now in assessing what comes next.

He might surprise you with his judgements. They're delivered by a man with an acute sense of Church procedures but also with an eye to possibilities. Let me know what you think.

Join the conversation at the Facebook page "Plenary Matters"

It's wrap-up time after a very big week in the life of the Church.

Listen and ponder these first thoughts from two key contributors to the Council: Sr Patty Fawkner, head of the Good Samaritan Sisters and a member of the Council organising committee.

Alongside Emeritus Professor John Warhurst, who was a scrutineer at the Council, ensuring the propriety of voting. He's a prominent member of the Concerned Catholics for Church Reform group from the Canberra-Goulburn diocese. They both feel transformational moments occurred but that there is much to come still, to ensure a welcoming, holy and world-facing Church.

Thanks for listening! Join the conversation at the Facebook page "Plenary Matters" or email plenarymatters2021@gmail.com

Well prepare yourself for some powerful listening in this episode. Two guests join me who've been at the core of events this past week of surprises at the 2nd Assembly...and they're still pretty raw from the sheer intensity of it all.

First Archbishop Mark Coleridge, who as President of the Australian Catholic Bishops Council, persuaded his confreres to call this Council back in 2015, in an inspired moment following the Rome 2015 Synod on the Family.

Then Dr Maeve Heaney joins me, a feisty but faithful theologian/liturgist, who's President of the Aust Catholic Theological Assn (ACTA) plus Director of the Xavier Centre for Theological Formation and one of the launchers of the Xavier School of Preaching, in the Canberra-Goulburn archdiocese. I hope they convey some of the acute emotions on display this week: suggesting a Church far from Death Row, as has occasionally been the public impression portrayed over the last few years.

Geraldine gives a preview of the big final day of the Plenary Council.

There'll be another longer episode out this afternoon.

Well today, day 3, really drew out the latent tensions and challenges always inherent in this Plenary Council process, ones that could not be dodged for much longer. It is not entirely clear as I write, what the final vote will be on issues around men and women’s status in the Church. So this issue could hardly be more significant.

It would appear (I am choosing my words carefully because a lot is opaque) that neither the broader members (the Consultative voters) nor the Bishops (Deliberative voters) gave these moves the requisite majority today. It is possible that the final motion lumped together a range of strands which proved too much for various members, lay and ordained alike. Emotions tipped over apparently within the Assembly and must have raised alarm bells. Because all the scheduled debates have been moved and the whole group sent back for further ‘discernment’: in other words code for ‘re-draw the motions’. Go back and re-think seems to be the message. It’s the first real set of clashes around nuance, tone and theology to my eyes. Virginia Bourke, a prominent Melbourne lay-woman well-known in health and legal realms in Victoria, will bring us up to speed in the second part of today’s pod. She is a lawyer, chair of Mercy Health and St John Ambulance Victoria and just appointed as pro-chancellor of the Australian Catholic University.

My first guest is Christopher Lamb - the Rome correspondent for the vital London Tablet magazine. He has been brought out for a range of speaking duties including the Helder Camara Lecture in Melbourne next week and one at Parramatta Diocese last night, as guest of Bishop Vincent Leong. He outlines the hostility to Francis from particular quarters but thinks Francis is playing “the long game” of finally seeing Vatican Two put into practice. It’s fascinating.

Today’s discussions about women and men was a bit of a wake-up call for optimists like me.

Two key issues have been on the discernment and consideration list for the Plenary Council members these past two days:

Reconciliation: Healing Wounds, Receiving Gifts - with an apology to Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islander peoples and the role of Catholic education in the life of the Church. And as we'll hear, in the wider Australian community.

In this episode, Geraldine speaks to John Lochowiak, chair of NATSICC, the National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Catholic Council, born in Cooper Pedy to an Aboriginal mother and Polish father.

And to Jacinta Collins, head of the National Catholic Education Commission, and former Labor Senator.

Both guests are intimately connected with these stories. In their different ways, they bring alive big visions for the role played in the past by the Church, where it could include new elements of worship and especially in the case of education, where it could broadcast how much it has offered wider society and why it will continue to do so.

Thanks for listening! Join the conversation at the Facebook page "Plenary Matters" or email plenarymatters2021@gmail.com

The Plenary Council is back in session, which means another season of Plenary Matters awaits.

In this episode Geraldine talks to Sarah Moffatt, a member of the Plenary Council Organising & Executive Committee. She's also the Director of Pastoral Life & Mission at Archdiocese of Adelaide.

Thanks for listening!

Join the conversation at the Facebook page "Plenary Matters" or email plenarymatters2021@gmail.com

In this final episode of The Young and Restless, we meet Madeline Ford.

At just 25 years of age, she’s one of the youngest members of the Plenary Council and she’s passionate about ensuring that the voice of young people forms part of the Plenary Council process.

So where to now for the church and how best do we nurture the faith for future generations?

Geraldine talks to 28-year-old Luke Smith.

Raised a Catholic and educated at Riverview College in Sydney, he’s a thinker and a searcher.

While he may not be sure where it all might take him, he knows that he wants to go somewhere that is decent.

But how does the church relate to his search for meaning?

Thanks for listening! Join the conversation at the Facebook page "Plenary matters".

In this podcast of the Young and Restless, Geraldine catches up with Fr Andy Nguyen.

Born in Vietnam, he studied architecture in the US, came to Australia to do a master’s degree, became a Catholic and entered the Jesuits in 2009 before being ordained a priest in 2019. His journey of faith and how he became a priest is fascinating.

He has cautious optimism for the Plenary Council and his great hope is that all the important questions that can be asked, are asked.

Thanks for listening!

Join the conversation at the Facebook group "Plenary Matters" or email plenarymatters2021@gmail.com

27yo Joe Wehbe is an author, entrepreneur, writer, and deep thinker, with more than a touch of leadership about him.

He has his own podcast, a blog and he’s the co-founder and lead of the ‘Constant Student Community’. That's a place where young people starting out in their careers can find support and guidance ‘which is all about changing education, and supporting those who want to change the world.’

Joe tells Geraldine that his Jesuit education - where community service was a big part of the curriculum - still influences his thinking. But where does the church fit into his life today?

Join the conversation at our Facebook page "Plenary Matters" or email 'plenarymatters2021@gmail.com'

Thanks for listening!

In this episode Geraldine talks to Grace Brennan, who’s been instrumental in uniting Australia’s communities in the city and country.

Raised in Sydney, she went to school at Loreto Kirribilli. Her story of marrying a farmer and moving to Warren in western NSW, becoming a mother and starting up ‘Buy from The Bush’ is inspirational.

She describes herself as a proud Catholic, but says that she’s trying to navigate some of the more challenging positions of the church.

In 2019 with much of the country experiencing devastating drought and bushfires, she founded the ‘Buy from The Bush’ campaign. In the process, Grace started conversations, lifted spirits, created jobs, and saved businesses that otherwise may have failed.

Andy Hamilton is a Jesuit priest, a deep thinker and the final subject of this Wise Old Souls series. For many years Andy has contributed widely to theological and religious journals and has been editorial consultant for Eureka Street.

He’s taught theology and church history at the United Faculty of Theology in Melbourne for many years and he’s worked extensively with refugee communities and has written on the conditions of asylum seekers in Australia.

So where now for the church and how best do we nurture the faith for future generations?

For Andy Hamilton the answer lies in the need to integrate the faith into the world in which we live and relating it to the everyday issues that we all face.

Geraldine talks to Dr Jo Laffin a senior lecturer in the Faculty of Theology and Philosophy at the Australian Catholic University. She lectures in church history and biblical studies and is currently researching the impact of the Second Vatican Council on the archdiocese of Adelaide.

Raised a protestant, Jo Laffin became a Catholic in 1994 and has dedicated her life to the understanding and teaching of Catholic spirituality and history.

Her doctoral thesis is a biography of Archbishop Matthew Beovich whose influence on Catholic belief and practice was highly significant.

Jo describes the profound changes brought about by the Second Vatican Council, and the unintended expectations placed upon priests as a result.

Geraldine catches up with Michael McGirr, best-selling author, former publisher of Eureka St and editor of Australian Catholics. His writings are known for their wisdom and gentle wit, but how has growing up Catholic influenced the life of Michael McGirr?

Born in 1961, he's had quite a journey both inside and outside the Church, joining the Jesuits at the age of 18 where he worked for 21 years (seven as a priest). He left the order in 2000, got married and had three children.

Today he's the director for mission at Caritas Australia, the Catholic Church's international aid and development agency.

He says that after leaving the priesthood his faith became more focused and more deeply spiritual. He became invigorated and excited by his faith, finding new purpose and meaning in community, work and friendships.

As the second Plenary gets underway, Michael McGirr offers some sage advice about the future shape of the church and is not timid with his admonishments.

In this episode Geraldine talks to wise old soul Clare Condon, a woman of great integrity and leadership in the Catholic Church.

Clare has been a Good Samaritan Sister for 50 years, including 12 as congregational leader. She's also the winner of a humanitarian award by the Human Rights Commission for her work with indigenous Australiasn, asylum seekers and victims of domestic violence.

As co-chair of the National Committee of Professional Standards from 2012 to 2017 she believes there should be a better response to the church to the findings of the Royal Commission.

She suggests that creating 'Liturgies of Lamet' and 'Rituals of Sorrow' may be a way to help deal with the grief and shame of what has happened, where mere words are not enough, to welcome back victims into the church and also as a public witness to the wider community.

Geraldine talks to Edmund Campion, a Sydney priest, writer, historian and academic.

Witty and profound, he describes the many changes in the religious lives of Australian Catholics and what those changes have meant.

Edmund Campion has been described as an encyclopedia of Australian Catholicism, ready to look backwards with a chronicler's honesty and gratitude as he is to look foward in hope.

In this interview Edmund Campion tells of the little-known role that lay-led organisations played 60 years ago in educating the rest of the church about the changes brought about by the Second Vatican Council.

Geraldine asks him where people today should place their best efforts in contributing to the church of the future.

Geraldine wraps up the week's deliberations by hearing from the man sitting at the official episcopal helm, Archbishop Mark Coleridge, President of the Australian Catholic Bishops Council.

He initiated the whole process, celebrated the final Solemn Mass today and reflects on a remarkable week.

Crossing to Rome, she also connected with a prominent Melbourne woman Susan Pascoe, AM. Susan is a teacher by training with wide experience governing Church and government agencies, who is the Australian invitee to the Pope's Synod. She chairs the Australian Council for International Development and sits on the board of Mercy Health, is a Trustee of St John of God Health Care and sits on various Church governance entities.

Thanks very much for your company!

Geraldine talks to prominent Catholic layman, constitutional law specialist and former Vice-Chancellor of the Australian Catholic University, Greg Craven.

Prepare for a feisty chat!

There are groups who believe they'd be better at running the Church instead of the bishops, but Craven begs to differ.

Geraldine speaks to two people with particular experience to share.

Sr Clare Condon is a former leader of the Sisters of the Good Samaritan, who advised the bishops on setting up professional standards within the Church in the wake of the Royal Commission into Institutional Child Abuse. Also, on better pastoral approaches to people who had been so hurt.

Geraldine also speaks to Professor Francis Campbell, now Vice-Chancellor of Notre Dame University headquartered in Perth, who was the UK's Ambassador to the Holy See in the Vatican and formerly advisor to PM Tony Blair.

Both, in their different ways, are firmly looking to the future of the Church and see real opportunities presented by the Plenary Council.

In this episode, Geraldine interviews John Warhurst, Emeritus Professor of Political Science at the Australian National University.

He is chair of Concerned Catholics Canberra Goulburn and a member of the Plenary Council, and a regular columnist with the Canberra Times and Eureka Street

Today, Geraldine follows the increased debate at the Plenary Council about the challenge of naming the issues at stake versus instituting some change for the better?

Hear surprising realism from Fr Gerry Gleeson, Vicar-General of the Archdiocese of Sydney, and also parish priest of Our Lady Star Of The Sea at Watson’s Bay; and Raj Rajasingam, from the Diocese of Broken Bay, who is a financial advisor and planner and also National Mission Director of the Couples For Christ movement, a covenant community.

Geraldine talks to three members for their impressions of the conversations thus far: to Virginia Bourke, the chair of Mercy Health in Victoria and St John Ambulance Victoria, who's a lawyer with considerable experience in corporate governance as well as charity work.

Fr Peter Williams, the Vicar-General of the Parramatta Diocese in NSW, ordained as a Catholic priest in 1992 having moved from an Anglican background, director of Liturgy for World Youth Day in 2008.

And to Francine Pirola, who runs Catholic family groups and the Marriage Resource Centre in Sydney.

All enthusiastic about the process, they each offer different perspectives on how members are offering perspectives on the future shape of the Church.

Formal proceedings got underway today at the Plenary Council offering a taste of things to come.

Geraldine talks to two of the 58 women involved, both lay and religious.

Her two guests are Angela McCarthy, Adjunct Senior Lecturer in Theology at Notre Dame University in WA and Dr Maeve Heaney, senior lecturer in the Faculty of Theology and Philosophy at the ACU based in Brisbane, where she’s also Director of the Xavier Centre for Theological Formation.

One of the key issues before the Church is the need for greater female involvement in the institution and in leadership roles.

How will the bishops respond to this clear request of the Church’s in the pews? It's a difficult dilemma for them, because any final recommendation about anything substantially new could run foul of Rome’s plans.

The Plenary Council is formally underway with the celebration of Mass in Perth.

Geraldine caught up with Fr Frank Brennan, the prominent Jesuit priest and public commentator.

What does he sense can be expected from this coming week of major talks? His day-job these days is Rector of Newman College in Melbourne but as a constitutional lawyer, he believes in contributing to the public square as a Catholic and is never timid with his interventions.

At the Plenary Council, he's been invited to be a peritus, that is, a specialist, to offer advice when asked by participants: under Canon Law, it's part of the structure of formal Councils. Periti were very influential at Vatican Two, which fundamentally turned the Church in a new direction back in the 1960s. So this is a nice link with the past and Frank Brennan will undoubtedly fulfil the role very well.

Geraldine readies herself for a week of talking and listening and the Catholic Church's Plenary Council which begins on Sunday 3rd October.

It's the first event held in Australia since 1937 and the first where lay-people can attend. All 300 or so participants will gather online from parishes around the country, due to Covid, all primed for respectful but passionate discussion about the future of a troubled Church.

Geraldine speaks to Lana Turvey-Collins, the lay-woman facilitator who's guided the complex organisation. They discuss Lana's ambitions for the Council but also the details about live streaming and access; and to Br Ian Cribb SJ, about the emphasis on Spiritual Conversations, a philosophy drawn from the Jesuit found St Ignatius, which will govern interactions at the Council.

https://plenarycouncil.catholic.org.au

Join prominent Australian broadcaster and Catholic Geraldine Doogue for her new podcast, Plenary Matters.

She'll follow a big, important gathering of the Catholic Church in Australia called the Plenary Council.

The last one was in 1937…yes, it’s been a long time between drinks!

And this one REALLY matters to the future of the Church….which is, let’s face it, swamped with challenges.

Geraldine has held on through this difficult period because she believes in the ability of the Church to 'resurrect' itself.

Join Geraldine as she speaks to other Catholics who are interested in shaping a new, modern Church.