Integrative Lawyers of the World

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Professor Camilla Andersen is a lawyer and academic. She’s been an academic for over thirty years on 4 different continents. She has a lot of experience in international commercial law, but she has devoted the last decade of her life to change and innovation, and to relational contract theory. She is changing the face of contract law and humanizing law.

In this conversation we discussed:

Humanizing law
Communication training for lawyers
Co-creating with clients and other professionals --- remembering that lawyers do not know everything
How legalese can render a contract unenforceable
Ways to make contracts more understandable
Comic Book Contracts and her comic book contract project
Examples of comic book contracts
The many benefits of visual contracts
Word of Caution against creating standardized images and icons for visual contracts
Relational contract theory, perspective, and practice
Her work with Mission Australia for which comic book contract was created for kids who are sent to therapy
What being an integrative lawyer means to her: thinking outside the box, listening to clients, accepting that lawyers do not know everything and co-creating with others.

Learn more about Professor Camilla Andersen and our other featured Integrative Lawyers of the World:

https://www.integrativelaw.com/celebrating-and-showcasing-the-global-integrative-law-movement

Links to some of the projects discussed in our conversation:

https://www.comicbookcontracts.com/our-journey
https://lawyersasdesigners.com/
https://www.alternativecontracting.biz/

To support the Integrative Law Movement and effect positive change in our legal systems:

https://www.integrativelaw.com/financial-support-for-the-movement

(supporters in the USA are able to make tax deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/ )

If you appreciate the work of these legal changemakers and want to help us continue to share more stories, please

👍🏽👍🏿👍 👍🏾👍🏼𝐥𝐢𝐤𝐞,

𝐬𝐮𝐛𝐬𝐜𝐫𝐢𝐛𝐞, and

⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐⭐𝐫𝐚𝐭𝐞 𝐮𝐬 𝟓 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐫𝐬 on

YouTube, Google, Spotify, iTunes, and your favorite podcast platforms. Links to these sites and our social media pages can be found at: https://www.integrativelaw.com/celebrating-and-showcasing-the-global-integrative-law-movement/

Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

A video recording of this podcast episode is available on YouTube here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7R-_wylJ2YQ-uLUPzRJ61bXgRxvGLulY

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In this episode, we talk to Ms. Chetty about her journey as a 𝐥𝐞𝐠𝐚𝐥 𝐜𝐡𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐞𝐦𝐚𝐤𝐞𝐫 and her pursuit of 𝐬𝐨𝐜𝐢𝐚𝐥 𝐣𝐮𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐞. In our conversation, we discuss:

• Social Justice – what it means, how to get it, and the difference between equality on paper or on the books and equality in application and life.

• The difference between equity and inclusion

• Using the law as an agent of change and how she brings empathy - what a traditional law professor referred to as “that hippie business” –into her law school lectures and courses

• Technology and AI in the legal profession: facing concerns and fears over AI but not wanting to get left behind

• Decolonization in legal education

• How integrative law at its core is language of love and a language of healing

• How law can be agent of change and her advice to lawyers who want to be changemakers with a positive impact

• What Integrative Law and being an integrative lawyer mean to her

To contact Neetu Chetty, email her here: neetuchetty@gmail.com

Learn more about the Integrative Law Movement, Neetu Chetty, and our other featured Integrative Lawyers of the World at www.integrativelaw.com

To support the Integrative Law Movement and effect positive change in our legal systems go to https://www.integrativelaw.com/financial-support-for-the-movement/

(Supporters in the USA are able to make tax deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/ )

If you appreciate the work of these legal changemakers and want to help us continue to share more stories, please

👍🏽 👍🏿 👍 👍🏾👍🏼 𝐥𝐢𝐤𝐞,

𝐬𝐮𝐛𝐬𝐜𝐫𝐢𝐛𝐞, and

⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐ 𝐫𝐚𝐭𝐞 𝐮𝐬 𝟓 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐫𝐬 on

YouTube, Google, Spotify, iTunes, and your favorite podcast platforms.

Links to these sites and our social media pages can be found at: https://www.integrativelaw.com/celebrating-and-showcasing-the-global-integrative-law-movement/

Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

A video version of this episode is available on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7R-_wylJ2YQ-uLUPzRJ61bXgRxvGLulY

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In this episode, we talk to Mr. Deoli about his legal journey, his Law and Happiness Office, and the role of lawyers in society. He believes that legal profession is a thread that connects and holds all of society together. In our conversation, we discuss:

His legal journey including a moment as a law student when he felt that there was something frustrating with the legal system
How he overcame his shyness to fulfill his mission of connecting with others
When he first realized as a kid that the was part of a marginalized group and how this propelled him to help those are marginalized in the legal system
What justice means and how, without equal and full access to the legal system for everyone, there cannot not be justice
His work with the Law and Happiness Office
His mission to restore the positive role and image of lawyers in communities and society
What Integrative Law and being an integrative lawyer mean to him

Learn more about Rajesh Deoli and our other featured Integrative Lawyers of the World at https://www.integrativelaw.com/celebrating-and-showcasing-the-global-integrative-law-movement.

To support the Integrative Law Movement and effect positive change in our legal systems go to https://www.integrativelaw.com/financial-support-for-the-movement/

(Supporters in the USA are able to make tax deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/ )

If you appreciate the work of these legal changemakers and want to help us continue to share more stories, please

👍🏽👍🏿👍 👍🏾👍🏼𝐥𝐢𝐤𝐞,

𝐬𝐮𝐛𝐬𝐜𝐫𝐢𝐛𝐞, and

⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐⭐𝐫𝐚𝐭𝐞 𝐮𝐬 𝟓 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐫𝐬 on

Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

A video version of this episode is available on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7R-_wylJ2YQ-uLUPzRJ61bXgRxvGLulY

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In this episode, we talk to Dr. Rose about public procurement and empowering positive change. More specifically, Margaret covers:

Why understanding and regulating public procurement is so important and why everyone, especially lawyers, need to be more aware of the public procurement practices and policies at their local level and at the global level
What Covid-19 and PPE procurement taught us about public procurement practices and showed us the weaknesses in these practices
Why public procurement practices and models need assess the purpose of a good in its value calculation of goods and risk assessment
Future Law Collaborative and its vision to bring legal futures from around the world together to catalyze systemic change at local and global levels
How she wants to support lawyers around the world be effective advocates for policy reform and systemic change
How the 4Ps: Public Private Partnerships with Purpose can create change and have a positive impact
Her “what if” question to all legal professionals
What being an integrative lawyer means to her

Learn more about Dr. Margaret Satya Rose and Future Law Collaborative: https://futurelaw.io/who-we-are/

To listen to conversations with more integrative lawyers from around the world, go to: https://www.integrativelaw.com/celebrating-and-showcasing-the-global-integrative-law-movement/

To support the Integrative Law Movement and effect positive change in our legal systems go to https://www.integrativelaw.com/financial-support-for-the-movement/

(supporters in the USA are able to make tax deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/ )

If you appreciate the work of these legal changemakers and want to help us continue to share more stories, please

👍🏽👍🏿👍👍🏾👍🏼𝐥𝐢𝐤𝐞,

https://www.integrativelaw.com/celebrating-and-showcasing-the-global-integrative-law-movement/Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

A video version of this episode is available on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7R-_wylJ2YQ-uLUPzRJ61bXgRxvGLulY

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In this episode, we talk to Ms. van der Meer about legal design thinking and why it’s important for lawyers to develop their empathy and creativity. More specifically, Susanne covers:

Visual language for lawyers
6 steps of legal design thinking
4 things lawyers can do to implement legal design thinking in their practice
How to develop your empathy and how to use empathy in your legal practice
How lawyers can develop their creativity and what law firms can do to foster the creative mindset of their lawyers
Rethinking the lawyer’s deliverables beyond the billable the hour
What being an integrative lawyer means to her

Learn more about Susanne van der Meer and her work at: https://siftvisuals.com/

To listen to conversations with more integrative lawyers from around the world, go to: https://www.integrativelaw.com/celebrating-and-showcasing-the-global-integrative-law-movement/

To support the Integrative Law Movement and effect positive change in our legal systems go to https://www.integrativelaw.com/financial-support-for-the-movement/

(supporters in the USA are able to make tax deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/ )

If you appreciate the work of these legal changemakers and want to help us continue to share more stories, please

👍🏽👍🏿👍 👍🏾👍🏼𝐥𝐢𝐤𝐞,

https://www.integrativelaw.com/celebrating-and-showcasing-the-global-integrative-law-movement/Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

An audio only recording of this podcast episode is available at https://integrative-lawyers-of-the-world.simplecast.com/episodes

A video version of this episode is available on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7R-_wylJ2YQ-uLUPzRJ61bXgRxvGLulY

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In this conversation, we discuss:

Her personal and legal journey and how being part of an international program for high school students in Atlanta, Georgia, USA and how her father’s political imprisonment and torture changed her career path from art to law --- and what led her to think “I need to understand this language of law",
The creative side and art of law and how sensitive people were not encouraged in law schools and law firms,
How participating as a mediator for the compensation fund changed her life and the lessons she learned from this experience,
How she was introduced to collaborative law,
How she is help building a collaborative community and collaborative practice in Brazil, and
What integrative law and what being an integrative lawyer mean to her.

Learn more about Olivia Fürst and our other featured Integrative Lawyers of the World at: https://www.integrativelaw.com/celebrating-and-showcasing-the-global-integrative-law-movement.

To support the Integrative Law Movement and effect positive change in our legal systems go to https://www.integrativelaw.com/financial-support-for-the-movement/ (supporters in the USA are able to make tax deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/ )

If you appreciate the work of these legal changemakers and want to help us continue to share more stories, please

👍🏽 👍🏿 👍 👍🏾👍🏼 𝐥𝐢𝐤𝐞,

𝐬𝐮𝐛𝐬𝐜𝐫𝐢𝐛𝐞, and

⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐ 𝐫𝐚𝐭𝐞 𝐮𝐬 𝟓 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐫𝐬

on YouTube, Google, Spotify, iTunes, and your favorite podcast platforms.

Links to these sites and our social media pages can be found at: https://www.integrativelaw.com/celebrating-and-showcasing-the-global-integrative-law-movement/

Click here for a video version of this podcast.

Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

A video version of this episode is available on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7R-_wylJ2YQ-uLUPzRJ61bXgRxvGLulY

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In this conversation, we discuss:

working with load shedding practices in South Africa and how this affects everyday life
how gender discrimination pushed her into opening her own firm because, as one person told her at the time, no one would hire a female litigator and questioned “what would happen if the kids got sick”
her path from litigation to mediation to collaborative law
Being an observer at Collaborative Alliance in Minnesota started by Ron Ousky (ILOW S5, Ep.1)
Insights and practical suggestions for starting something new
her complications from hip surgery and how she found many gifts in this injury
her struggles with, and dream of, building a collaborative community in South Africa

Learn more about Debra Segrott and our other featured Integrative Lawyers of the World at https://www.integrativelaw.com/celebrating-and-showcasing-the-global-integrative-law-movement

To support the Integrative Law Movement and effect positive change in our legal systems go to https://www.integrativelaw.com/financial-support-for-the-movement/

(supporters in the USA are able to make tax deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/ )

If you appreciate the work of these legal changemakers and want to help us continue to share more stories, please

👍🏽👍🏿👍 👍🏾👍🏼𝐥𝐢𝐤𝐞,

𝐬𝐮𝐛𝐬𝐜𝐫𝐢𝐛𝐞, and

⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐⭐𝐫𝐚𝐭𝐞 𝐮𝐬 𝟓 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐫𝐬 on

Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

A video version of this episode is available on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7R-_wylJ2YQ-uLUPzRJ61bXgRxvGLulY

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In this conversation, we discuss:

How she discovered collaborative law early in her legal career,
Why collaborative law is aligned with her values and vision for lawyers’ role in society,
Conscious Contracts® and how she uses Conscious Contracts® in premarital and marriage contracts,
How Collaborative Law and Conscious Contracts® complement each other and fit within the Integrative Law Movement, and
What being an Integrative Lawyer means to her.

Learn more about the Integrative Law Movement at: www.IntegrativeLaw.com

To support the Integrative Law Movement and effect positive change in our legal systems go to https://www.integrativelaw.com/financial-support-for-the-movement/

(Supporters in the USA are able to make tax deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/ )

If you appreciate the work of these legal changemakers and want to help us continue to share more stories, please

👍🏽👍🏿👍 👍🏾👍🏼𝐥𝐢𝐤𝐞,

SUBSCRIBE, and

⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐⭐𝐫𝐚𝐭𝐞 𝐮𝐬 𝟓 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐫𝐬 on

A video recording of this podcast episode is available on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7R-_wylJ2YQ-uLUPzRJ61bXgRxvGLulY

Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

A video version of this episode is available on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7R-_wylJ2YQ-uLUPzRJ61bXgRxvGLulY

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In this episode, we talk to Mr. Chettiar about his legal journey and life philosophy. He shares

What it was like leaving one of the most prestigious law firms in Singapore to fall his inner calling,
How volunteering with Mother Theresa’s Missionaries of Charity was a pivotal and profound experience in his life,
The feeling he had when he first heard about Collaborative Law,
The joy he felt after his first collaborative case, and
What integrative law and being an integrative lawyer means to him.

Learn more about Rajan Chettiar and our other featured Integrative Lawyers of the World at https://www.integrativelaw.com/celebrating-and-showcasing-the-global-integrative-law-movement. You can connect with Mr. Chettiar on LinkedIn or through his firm's website at: https://www.rajanchettiar.com/

To support the Integrative Law Movement and effect positive change in our legal systems go to https://www.integrativelaw.com/financial-support-for-the-movement/

(supporters in the USA are able to make tax deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/ )

If you appreciate the work of these legal changemakers and want to help us continue to share more stories, please

👍🏽👍🏿👍 👍🏾👍🏼𝐥𝐢𝐤𝐞,

𝐬𝐮𝐛𝐬𝐜𝐫𝐢𝐛𝐞,

comment,

⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐⭐𝐫𝐚𝐭𝐞 𝐮𝐬 𝟓 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐫𝐬 on

A video recording of this podcast episode is available at https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7R-_wylJ2YQ-uLUPzRJ61bXgRxvGLulY&si=FXM3RbfK4oE80k09

Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

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In this conversation, we discuss:

Jamie-Lee’s multi-cultural (Māori & European) ancestry and how this influences how she sees the world
The Māori people and culture
Her legal journey from corporate law to community law, family law, collaborative law, and integrative law
Her experience as an In-house lawyer with the Waitangi tribunal, which was set-up for Māori to assert claims that the crown is in breach of The Treaty of Waitangi/Te Tiriti o Waitangi
Her work to help support children and families
Collaborative Law in New Zealand
Her dream of building a collaborative law practice group or community for lawyers with indigenous links.
What being an integrative lawyer means to her

Learn more about Jamie-Lee Tuuta and our other featured Integrative Lawyers of the World at https://www.integrativelaw.com/celebrating-and-showcasing-the-global-integrative-law-movement.

To support the Integrative Law Movement and effect positive change in our legal systems go to https://www.integrativelaw.com/financial-support-for-the-movement/

(supporters in the USA are able to make tax deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/ )

If you appreciate the work of these legal changemakers and want to help us continue to share more stories, please

👍🏽👍🏿👍 👍🏾👍🏼𝐥𝐢𝐤𝐞,

https://www.integrativelaw.com/celebrating-and-showcasing-the-global-integrative-law-movement/Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

An video version of this podcast is available on YouTube at: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7R-_wylJ2YQrwWEQpqLCVIa2qgiRjyT4

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In this episode, we discuss with Mr. Ousky:

The collaborative process & the paradigm shift that collaborative lawyers make
Helping parties of divorce look toward a brighter future
Being an advocate and counselor versus an adversarial gladiator
Trial lawyering skills that are good for and not so good for a collaborative lawyer
The interconnection between collaborative law and the integrative law movement
The importance of inner work
Possibilities for future lawyers and the legal system
What being an integrative lawyer means to him

Learn more about Ron Ousky or connect with him at Ousky Yates Law Office& Collaborative Alliance

Click here to support the Integrative Law Movement and effect positive change in our legal systems. (Supporters in the USA can make tax deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/)

If you appreciate the work of these legal change makers and want to help

𝐈𝐟 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐚𝐩𝐩𝐫𝐞𝐜𝐢𝐚𝐭𝐞 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐰𝐨𝐫𝐤 𝐨𝐟 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐬𝐞 𝐥𝐞𝐠𝐚𝐥 𝐜𝐡𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐞𝐦𝐚𝐤𝐞𝐫𝐬 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐰𝐚𝐧𝐭 𝐭𝐨 𝐡𝐞𝐥𝐩 𝐮𝐬 𝐜𝐨𝐧𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐮𝐞 𝐭𝐨 𝐬𝐡𝐚𝐫𝐞 𝐦𝐨𝐫𝐞 𝐬𝐭𝐨𝐫𝐢𝐞𝐬, 𝐩𝐥𝐞𝐚𝐬𝐞:

𝐥𝐢𝐤𝐞 👍🏽👍🏿👍 👍🏾👍🏼

𝐬𝐮𝐛𝐬𝐜𝐫𝐢𝐛𝐞

https://www.integrativelaw.com/celebrating-and-showcasing-the-global-integrative-law-movement/Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

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Silvina is an Argentinian Lawyer, based in Buenos Aires. She is the mom of two boys. She has been working as a corporate counsel for the last 10 years in the health industry and she is a Co-founder of La Organización Latinoamericana de Derecho Colaborativo which joins lawyers all around Latin America to spread the word about the benefits of collaborative practice. She is also passionate about human relationships and has been working and developing new ways of advocating to encourage lawyers to change their way of working.

In this episode, Silvina shares her legal journey from litigator to collaboratively-trained corporate counsel.

We discussed:

How being a Mom taught her new things and skills, like compassion, that she didn’t know she had and that makes her a better lawyer
The period when she wanted to quit the practice of law and what she did,
The importance of taking a pause, doing something different, and being your true self
Getting rejected (many times) before finding a place to work that valued her
The power of our interpersonal connections and cups of coffee in spreading an idea and building something new
The collaborative law practice and mindset
OLADC: la Organización Latinoamericana de Derecho Colaborativo
How she uses her collaborative training and mindset in her corporate law practice
What being an integrative lawyer means to her.

Silvina Matisic Contact Info:

Email: silvinamatisic@gmail.com

LinkedIn Profile: linkedin.com/in/silvina-matisic-ba942162

OLADC: la Organización Latinoamericana de Derecho Colaborativo:

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100081576875371
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/groups/13977872/

To support the Integrative Law Movement and effect positive change in our legal systems go tohttps://www.integrativelaw.com/financial-support-for-the-movement/

(supporters in the USA are able to make tax-deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/ )

Links to these sites and our social media pages can be found on our LinkTree https://linktr.ee/IntegrativeLaw

Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach.

He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

A watch-only recording of this podcast episode is available at https://youtu.be/dSavULU726c

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Myrna McCallum is a true changemaker and a leading champion of trauma-informed lawyering. She is the host of “The Trauma-Informed Lawyer" Podcast and she acts as a subject matter expert and consultant on trauma-informed policy. Myrna also offers training courses on trauma-informed engagement for leaders, policy makers, police officers, lawyers and judges. She has also become a highly sought after public speaker. Myrna received the 2020 Federal Department of Justice Excellence in Legal Practice and Victim Support Award, the 2022 Canadian Bar Association BC Aboriginal Lawyer’s Forum Special Contributor Award and the 2022 Saskatchewan Ombudsman Game Changer Award. Myrna has co-edied two publications:

Canadian Law, Indigenous Laws and Critical Perspectives published by CanLII as a Criminal Law Open Access eBook and
Trauma-Informed Law: a Primer for Lawyer Resilience and Healing published by the American Bar Association.

She lives in North Vancouver, B.C., Canada.

In this episode, we discuss what being a trauma-informed lawyer is and why being trauma-informed is an essential component for lawyer competency. In this conversation, we discuss:

Myrna’s background and legal journey
Her Métis heritage and how Métis culture
Being a Trauma-Informed Lawyer
Trauma in the practice of law and the legal system
Group trauma
Vicarious trauma and vicarious resilience
The hallmarks of trauma-informed lawyering
The Indigenous Medicine Wheel and living a holistic and balanced life
How cultural humility, active listening, and inner work are essential for lawyer competency but are not taught in law school
The principles of being trauma-informed have broad application and relevance in any profession and sector
What being an integrative lawyer means to her

If you are in practice that manages fears and stress, then being trauma-informed and this ILOW episode with Myrna McCullum are for you.

You can listen to Myrna’s The Trauma-Informed Lawyer podcast here:https://www.myrnamccallum.co/podcast

Myrna McCallum Contact Info:

Email: myrna@miyopimatisiwin.ca

website: https://www.myrnamccallum.co/

Her Podcast: The Trauma-Informed Lawyer - https://www.myrnamccallum.co/podcast

To support the Integrative Law Movement and effect positive change in our legal systems go to https://www.integrativelaw.com/financ...

(supporters in the USA are able to make tax-deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/ )

If you appreciate the work of these legal changemakers and want to help us continue to share more stories, please like, subscribe, and rate us 5 stars on YouTube, Google, Spotify, iTunes, and your favorite podcast platforms. Links to these sites and our social media pages can be found on our LinkTree https://linktr.ee/IntegrativeLaw

Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

A watch-only recording of this podcast episode is available at https://youtu.be/yhIpvq9jzZE

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Our guest this episode is Raphael Chsubo Masesa. He is a lecturer at the IIE Varsity College in Cape Town, South Africa and a Board Member for Ubuntuworks Project. He teaches Indigenous law and Integrative law among other law courses. He teaches indigenous law through oral tradition, storytelling, traditional music, poetry and praise on social matters. He has taught more than 15 years at the University of the Western Cape and the IIE Varsity College.

In our conversation, we discuss:

His integrative law and indigenous law classes;
How indigenous law is not a practice; it’s his life;
The meaning of his name and having to take on a Christian/Western name;
St. Francis of Assisi and his connection to nature and earth;
Ubuntu and how it can be activated at the individual and collective level;
How is working to take integrative law to Zambia
The Integrative Law Retreat

For more information and to contact Ralphael Chsubo Masesa:

Email: rmasesa@gmail.com

To support the Integrative Law Movement and effect positive change in our legal systems go to https://www.integrativelaw.com/financ...

(supporters in the USA are able to make tax-deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/ )

Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

A watch-only recording of this podcast episode is available at: https://youtu.be/h4ZzKBALwOc

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Our guest in this episode is Anirudh Rastogi of India so interesting. Anirudh is the founder and managing partner of Ikigai Law which serves technology and innovation. He and Ikigai Law help innovators navigate the uncertain legal waters where technology sails faster than laws and regulations. He also has an innovative approach to contracts, which he discussed in his TEDx Talk, Reimagining Contracts to Empower Millions. In our conversation, we discussed technology and innovation, visual contracts, and more.

Conversation Highlights:

Law and technology
How to manage legal and regulatory uncertainty
Balancing our fear of the consequences (known and unknown) with the benefits of technology.
How over-regulation can limit technology and innovation
How technology and innovation develop the solutions to their own problems – if allowed to develop
How regulation is sometimes welcomed and can-- if in the right balance –encourage innovation.
Examples of innovation and emerging technologies
Visual Contracts
Contract Design versus Contract Drafting
In designing a contract, lawyers should ask – how can I create this in such a way that it would DELIGHT the parties
Different ways to design contracts including visual contracts and comic contracts
Contracts can level the bargaining power of the parties, empower each party, and establish a true meeting of the minds
What being an integrative lawyer means to him

For more information and to contact Anirudh:

LinkedIn:linkedin.com/in/anirudhrastogi
Ikigai Law Website: https://www.ikigailaw.com/#acceptLicense
Email: anirudh@ikigailaw.com

To support the Integrative Law Movement and effect positive change in our legal systems go to https://www.integrativelaw.com/financ...

(supporters in the USA are able to make tax-deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/ )

Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

An watch-only recording of this podcast episode is available at: https://youtu.be/YFWxPlePOjQ

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Marguerite Picard is a facilitator and peacemaker, accredited specialist family lawyer, mediator, arbitrator, collaborative practitioner, and trainer. She has three innovative businesses: MELCA (Melbourne Collaborative Alliance), Smart Separation, and Support for Lawyers. Her primary interest is in system change away from adversarial thinking to collaborative and interdisciplinary approaches.

In this conversation, we discussed:

Her journey from criminal lawyer and litigator to integrative and collaborative lawyer
MELCA and its interdisciplinary approach to helping families move through divorce
Smart Separation and the right and wrong moves to make when considering a marital separation
Support for Lawyers and the well-being and mental health issues faced by many lawyers
The “why” driving her businesses
How an individual’s healing flows from individuals to their clients, community, and society
How the adversarial approach leaked into different segments of society from courtrooms to board rooms to newsrooms and her hope that an integrative and collaborative will replace that adversarial approach
What being an integrative lawyer means to her

For more information and to contact Marguerite:

Marguerite@melca.com.au

MELCA (Melbourne Collaborative Alliance
www.melca.com.au

Smart Separation
www.smartseparation.com.au

Support for Lawyers
www.supportforlawyers.com

To support the Integrative Law Movement and effect positive change in our legal systems go to https://www.integrativelaw.com/financial-support-for-the-movement

(supporters in the USA are able to make tax-deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/ )

Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

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Femke Wijdekop joins us from The Netherlands. At one point, she felt like the practice of law was not right for her. So, she quit it and worked in a bookstore. But now she is a legal counsel and content manager for Stop Ecocide NL and a member of the Environmental Restorative Justice Working Group. She is fueled by love – for humanity, for nature, for earth.

In our conversation, Femke said something that really resonated with me. She explained that she focuses on the regenerative environmental work and practices being done because by focusing on them we are giving more life and more power to them, which then creates more regenerative practices and work. We talked about this and so much more including:

Her Journey from leaving the law to living with purpose with the law
Earth Law and Ecocide
Successes with Earth Law and the Stop Ecocide movement
Her Ted Talk, How Law Can Save the Earth
Challenges for Earth Law and the environment
The interconnection between Restorative Justice and Earth Law
Integrative Law and what being an integrative lawyer means to her.

For more information and to contact Femke:

https://earthrestorativejustice.org/
Learn more about Femke and our other featured Integrative Lawyers of the World at https://www.integrativelaw.com/celebrating-and-showcasing-the-global-integrative-law-movement/# FemkeWijdekop

To support the Integrative Law Movement and effect positive change in our legal systems go to https://www.integrativelaw.com/financial-support-for-the-movement

(supporters in the USA are able to make tax deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/ )

Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

An audio only recording of this podcast episode is available at https://integrative-lawyers-of-the-world.simplecast.com/episodes/ FemkeWijdekop

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Jens Magers is corporate lawyer in Germany who specializes in sustainable finance and investment and sustainable corporate governance. He works with the firm Rittershaus and founded its Sustainable and Investment Team. He is also a lecturer on sustainability and corporate governance at one of the leading business schools in Germany. He regularly publishes articles on corporate and sustainability matters.

In our conversation we discuss:

Sustainable investment and finance
Social impact investing
How he created a new practice team for his firm
How his firm incorporated sustainability in its operations and policies and now teaches other law firms on how to do the same
The importance of self-development work and practice for your personal and professional life
What being an integrative lawyer means to him

For more information on Jens Magers:

https://rittershaus.net/en/rechtsanwaelte/jens-magers.html

To support the Integrative Law Movement and create positive change in our legal system go to: https://www.integrativelaw.com/financial-support-for-the-movement/ (supporters in the USA are able to make tax deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/)

If you appreciate the work of these legal change makers and want to help continue to share more stories, please: like, subscribe, and rate us 5 stars on YouTube, Google, Spotify, iTunes, and your favorite podcast platforms. Links to these sites and our social media pages can be found on our LinkTree: https://linktr.ee/IntegrativeLaw

⭐ 𝗟𝗜𝗞𝗘

⭐ 𝗦𝗨𝗕𝗦𝗖𝗥𝗜𝗕𝗘

⭐ 𝗖𝗢𝗠𝗠𝗘𝗡𝗧

⭐ 𝗦𝗛𝗔𝗥𝗘

⭐ 𝟱-𝗦𝗧𝗔𝗥 𝗥𝗔𝗧𝗜𝗡𝗚

Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

To learn more about Integrative Law and integrative Lawyers of the World:

www.integrativelaw.com

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Syed Akbar Hussain is from Pakistan. He is founder of The ADR Initiative and established an accredited mediation training program for law students in Pakistan. He is an ACC mediator, arbitrator, and negotiator in the US, China, and Singapore as well as a World Bank Local Expert and Advocate in the High Courts in Pakistan. 𝗛𝗲 𝗶𝘀 𝗮𝗻 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗴𝗿𝗮𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗹𝗮𝘄𝘆𝗲𝗿 𝘄𝗵𝗼 𝗯𝗲𝗹𝗶𝗲𝘃𝗲𝘀 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗻𝗼𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 – 𝗲𝘃𝗲𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗼𝘂𝗴𝗵 𝗼𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿𝘀 𝗺𝗮𝘆 𝘁𝗲𝗹𝗹 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝘆𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗶𝗱𝗲𝗮 𝗼𝗿 𝘃𝗶𝘀𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝘄𝗼𝗻’𝘁 𝘄𝗼𝗿𝗸, 𝗼𝗻𝗰𝗲 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗽 𝗼𝘂𝘁, 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝘄𝗶𝗹𝗹 𝗳𝗶𝗻𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘄𝗼𝗿𝗹𝗱 𝗶𝘀 𝗺𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝘄𝗶𝗹𝗹 𝗳𝗶𝗻𝗱 𝘆𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗽𝗲𝗼𝗽𝗹𝗲 𝗮𝗹𝗹 𝗼𝘃𝗲𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘄𝗼𝗿𝗹𝗱. As he said in our conversation: “You can do more with all kinds of people to make all kinds of things possible that you never thought were.”

In our conversation, we discuss:

👉 How and why he started ADR in Pakistan, including an accredited mediation training

👉 How Covid forced him to stop and slow down – and why he is grateful for that

👉 Finding and living his vision for his legal career with innovation and creativity

👉 AI and ADR

👉 Triggers and conflict of individuals and humanity as a whole

👉 What being an Integrative Lawyer means to him

and, more!

𝗙𝗼𝗿 𝗺𝗼𝗿𝗲 𝗶𝗻𝗳𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗼𝗿 𝘁𝗼 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗮𝗰𝘁 Syed Akbar Hussain

Email address: akbar@sazhconsulting.com

Consulting firm: sazhconsulting.com

ADR Initiative: theadrinitiative.com

Learn more about Syed Akbar Hussain and our other featured Integrative Lawyers of the World at https://www.integrativelaw.com/celebrating-and-showcasing-the-global-integrative-law-movement

To support the Integrative Law Movement and effect positive change in our legal systems, go to :

https://www.integrativelaw.com/financial-support-for-the-movement

(supporters in the USA can make tax deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/)

If you appreciate the work of these legal change makers and want to help us continue to share their stories, please like, subscribe, and rate us 5 stars on YouTube, Google, Spotify, iTunes, and your favorite podcast platforms.

👍 LIKE

🅂🅄🄱🅂🄲🅁🄸🄱🄴

⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ 5-Star Rating

Links to these sites and our social media pages can be found on our LinkTree: https://linktr.ee/IntegrativeLaw

Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

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Peter S. Lustig is from Australia. He is a collaborative practitioner, mediator, lawyer, and coach. These are some of the labels that identify what Peter does, who he is goes much deeper. His experiences include years of personal growth work, working with men’s groups and multi-gender circles, facilitating meetings, organizing play for social activism, and holding space. Each experience is an expression, and contribution, of who he is. He is an integrative lawyer who believes that the law is a lubricant for relationships; and as such, lawyers are in a unique position to create harmony in relationships. One of his current projects is using the Conscious Contracts® process to develop Conscious Wills.

In this episode, our conversation is both philosophical and practical as we talk about personal healing and professional impact. Mr. Lustig shares his journey, which he describes on his website as one “…from being a head-kicking adversarial gun for hire, towards the more human approach of helping people understand why conflict is in their lives and what it is there to teach them.”

We discuss:

the transformational role of conflict
the importance of giving oneself pause and space
Conscious Wills
how lawyers are in a unique position to bring harmony to others and our planet
what being an Integrative Lawyer means to him

For more information or to contact Peter Lustig:

Website: https://peterslustig.net/
Email: psl@peterslustig.net

Learn more about Peter Lustig and our other featured Integrative Lawyers of the World at:

https://www.integrativelaw.com/celebrating-and-showcasing-the-global-integrative-law-movement/

To support the Integrative Law Movement and effect positive change in our legal systems go to:

https://www.integrativelaw.com/financial-support-for-the-movement/

(supporters in the USA are able to make tax deductible donations thanks to our fiscal sponsor The Renaissance Lawyer Society https://renaissancelawyer.org/)

If you appreciate the work of these legal changemakers and want to help us continue to share more stories, please

👍 LIKE,
SUBSCRIBE , and
rate us 5 stars ⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐ on YouTube, Google, Spotify, iTunes, and your favorite podcast platforms.

Links to these sites and our social media pages can be found on our LinkTree: https://linktr.ee/IntegrativeLaw

Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

An video recording of this podcast episode is available at https://youtu.be/fq7y8oFNdok

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In this conversation, we discuss:

TJ (Therapeutic Jurisprudence): how it began; the ideas behind it, and his goals for it,
The role of judges and lawyers as therapeutic agents,
How the law has a positive or negative therapeutic consequence on the well-being of those involved,
How our roles as lawyers, mediators, and judges have a positive or negative therapeutic consequence, and we can choose which one we have by the actions we take and the words we use,
How the TJ movement is growing internationally, and
What being an Integrative Lawyer means to him.

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In this conversation, we discussed:

His journey from litigator, hard-edge lawyer to an integrative and collaborative approach
A resistance from peers, clients, and public opinion to new approaches to law because people want (or think they want) the hard-edge, cut-throat, beat-up-the-other-side type lawyer. Even though changing his practice to be more aligned with himself has been a positive experience, there were times when it was lonely and difficult.
Making the paradigm shift to a culture of peace
Conflict Resolution
Spiral Dynamics
Non-Defensive Communication
The importance of learning disciplines and approaches
What being an integrative lawyer means to him

Quote:

“When you understand that conflict is part of human beings, part of the human experience, then you can work on conflict differently to learn, and to try to become a better person.”

Marcello Rodante

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Isaac in his own words:

"I am a 35 years old lawyer from the university of London courtesy of Justice Defenders. Young and naive, I was arrested at the age of 25 years and sentenced to serve a 14 years. My dream of becoming a lawyer vanished. I lost hope and I never thought I would ever become anything again.

Taking law classes prior to my arrest, my journey to become a lawyer was given back to me in a way that can only be described as a miracle when Justice Defenders through the University of London sponsored my law degree. I finally graduated in 2018. Unlike before, this time I had to do my law degree under very difficult circumstances in prison. The end goal for my degree also changed from being a ‘big shot’ lawyer to a lawyer who would change the lives of those who cannot represent themselves."

In this episode, we discuss:

His journey from wanting to be a “big shot” lawyer, to prison, to working with Justice Defenders

How Isaac felt the moment he was waiting for the judge to issue his sentence and the moment after the sentence was issued

Justice Defenders, a UK charity and US non-profit, that defends the defenseless, acts for a better world, practice as servant lawyers helping those in the margins of society, and builds bridges in the adversarial system. https://www.justice-defenders.org/about

Justice Defenders law school programs in prisons

Isaac’s law school classes where fellow inmates and prison wardens became classmates

The flaws in a system where “justice” varies depending on how much money you have

Some of Isaac’s cases with Justice Defenders

The ability for each person to make a positive impact from wherever they are – even from prison

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Professor Rhonda V. Magee

Email: rvmagee@usfca.edu

Website: www.rhondavmagee.com

Short Bio:

Rhonda Magee is a lawyer, legal scholar, law professor, author, practitioner of mindfulness, and one of the founding members of the Integrative Law Movement. She teaches mindfulness to her law students and others. In her book, The Inner Work of Racial Justice, Healing Ourselves and Transforming Our Communities Through Mindfulness, she addresses how mindfulness and compassion can help bring people together across cultures, and provides mindfulness practices throughout the book.

Show Notes:

In this episode, we discuss:

Rhonda’s journey from insurance law to teaching mindfulness to lawyers and law students
The importance of inclusivity and how being able to or not able to “feel at home” affects performance, promotions, prosperity….and more
Mindfulness – what it is, how to practice, and why its healing and helpful
Mindfulness and racial justice: Rhonda explains how research gives us confidence - for those who practice mindfulness there is a greater ability to perform better even in the presence of stereotype threats
Her book, The Inner Work of Racial Justice, Healing Ourselves and Transforming Our Communities Through Mindfulness, and the need to amplify this healing and transformation;
She reads her poem: If the Path Could Speak
What integrative law means to her

Clips:

If the Path Could Speak (2:54)
Mindfulness & Racial Justice (4:27)
What integrative law means to her (4:08)
Mindfulness is racial justice? (1:43)
Doing the work together and being together (1:04)

Quotes

“There is every reason to be confident that we can better communicate across these painful differences in our experiences … healing ourselves first and then transforming our communities through mindfulness. That is all possible and, you know, it is something that keeps me excited about bringing mindfulness into law, into social justice work, into our lives more fully at this time.” Rhonda V. Magee

On Integrative Law

“It’s about holistic. It’s about the opportunity for us to participate in healthy or therapeutic ways of interacting within a conflict scenario. It’s about helping us see our own humanity and with humility to learn from each other about how to navigate this time. It’s opening the door on the original medicine that each one of us brings into the law.

What is that we might to do to deepen that sense that this is about a holistic process through which we might heal ourselves, heal the separateness between and amongst our communities, each other, and between human beings and our planet.

To me, it about the notion of integrative – is fundamentally about healing separations --- and that I think is the deep call of this, not just this subfield or orientation to practicing law but of this moment. I feel like there is a reason – just all of us in a pause with coronavirus on the one hand, climate distress on the other, inequality happening at radical levels. We are at a time where we, I feel, are called – called to really look at how are systems including the powerful system of law – - how these systems that we inherited and that we participate in are perpetuating separations that are not to the ultimate good of us as human beings or the planet.

So, how can we bring our integrative repair, restorative dimension right into our particular role in the system. That’s the question that animates integrative law.”

Rhonda V. Magee

On Racial Justice

“Justice is about love in action. Racial justice is love in action for the alleviation of the harms of racism, the harms they do all of us, but certainly particularly those who are its targets and intended victims. We’re really bringing love and action to repair the separations – but to heal the separations and repair the harm of racism”

Rhonda V. Magee

To me, that’s the joy that comes in this work. It’s not that we find the ultimate resolution of these big questions that have plagued humanity for all time. It’s that we recognize that in doing the work together, there is some sense of the resolution if, you know, the ending of suffering in being together in ways that make the most of the moments that we have…you how that is justice.”

Rhonda V. Magee

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Ana Luiza Etchalus is a Brazilian lawyer with a multi-disciplinary legal background including international trade law, legal psychology, collaborative law, and Conscious Contracts certification. She has created a systemic legal vision that she wants to share with the world. While Ana Luiza is a co-founder of OLA-DC, a Latin American Collaborative Organization, she is also an author of “Basque Soul” which chronicles her personal journey to her family roots and origins.

In this episode of Integrative Lawyers of the World, Ana Luiza talks to us about her transformative journey to discover her family roots and how that affected her approach to law practice, how knowing ourselves helps us be better lawyers, how Consciou Contracts practice is creating positive change, and her special message to lawyers and others everywhere.

Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

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We talk with MariaClaudia Perego of Italy about the power of Integrative Law to make change, how having processes be client driven brings about better outcomes, and how conflict is an opportunity for deeper understanding and growth. She shares with us her family history of how the law is in her DNA and how is in the DNA of society.

MariaClaudia Perego is an integrative lawyer from Italy (outside of Milan). She is the author of two books, including: Dalla Contesa all'Intesa (From Contention to Understanding), which she co-authored with Mario Dotti. She provides trainings on mediation and Conscious Contracts throughout Italy. In her integrative approach to law, she connects with her clients as human beings who have needs to be welcomed, listened to, and understood and not as legal issues. By being human-centered first, she finds that even the most complex issues melt and find a solution that allows her clients to look forward to the future with more confidence.

Learn more at https://www.integrativelaw.com/celebrating-and-showcasing-the-global-integrative-law-movement/#MariaClaudiaPerego

Music for this podcast was created by Toby Leach. He may be contacted at: tobby.leach@gmail.com

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Rhiannon Thomas

Email: roothomas@gmail.com

For more information about Rhiannon Thomas and Milkwood:

www.milkwoodlaw.co.za

BRIEF BIO:

From Milkwood Law website:

Rhiannon has two decades of legal experience. She is an attorney, notary, conveyancer and administrator of deceased estates in practice at Michelle Dommisse & Associates in Cape Town. She is also a values consultant and accredited Conscious Contracts® provider and trainer.

She has developed and facilitated workshops on a wide range of topics. A natural connector and networker, Rhiannon thrives on building relationships.

She found her tribe in the Integrative Law movement. Her vision is to offer the best, most meaningful encounter that a person can have with the law and a lawyer; to work collaboratively with other professionals; to inspire other lawyers to reassess the way in which they practise law and serve their clients; and to take Milkwood’s methods into mainstream legal practice by providing training and workshops.

She works internationally and is based in Cape Town.

SHOW NOTES:

In this conversation, we discussed:

What integrative law and being an integrative lawyer means
- Embodying the belief that we can be ourselves and still belong in the legal system
- Connecting with all our intelligences – gut, heart, and head
- Embracing the wholeness hat our human form and consciousness allow us to have
Her path to Integrative Law – being tired of feeling like she had to play a role to fit in the legal system and legal community
Examples of how being an integrative lawyer looks like in her legal practice
Commitment Agreements that look at the middle of the marriage; most lawyers offer a prenup (before marriage) and divorces (after marriage ends) but she saw a gap for helping couples for their actual marriage
Wills – asking her clients about the stories and legacies that they want to leave to their heirs in addition to the typical asset allocation
Authenticity and how it creates spaces for ourselves, for others, and for problem solving
The important of self-inquiry and self-awareness for being authentic
Always looking for ways to offer more to her clients

QUOTES:

“In true authenticity, people are allowed to say things that they might not have normally said in a situation where they feel that a person they are dealing with is just playing a role.”

“I had to suppress my own personality….As soon as I started to explore what it is to be a whole person, people opened up.”

“Authenticity is around really knowing yourself well and being true to yourself.”

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Tanya Lat

Email: atty.tanyalat@gmail.com

Graduate Program Coordinator at University of the Philippines College of Law

Brief Bio:

Tanya left big firm practice looking for a meaningful way to practice law that was aligned with her values. She is a professor of law teaching ethics such courses as :

Legal and Judicial Ethics,
Legal Profession,
Legal Technique and Logic,
The Lawyer as Leader and Policymaker,
Legal Education, and
International Trade Law.

She is working with the Legal Education Advancement Program in the Philippines to reshape legal education for more impactful and meaningful experience for students. For her own lectures and classes, she starts each class with a meditation. This is one example of how she integrates her values into her work.

Previously, she was Legal Adviser of the International Trade Unit of the Initiatives for Dialogue and Empowerment through Alternative Legal Services, Project Manager of the Asian Institute of Management Policy Center, Consultant of the Perterson Institute for International Economics, and Legal Consultant of the Akbayan Citizens Action Party. In her role as legal advisor, she worked to give ordinary people a voice in the international negotiations between the Philippines and Japan.

She has earned many awards and is engaged in political discussions.

Show Notes:

Some major themes in our discussion:

human rights and people having a say in things that will affect their lives, their health, and their environment;
finding common ground even with those who disagree with us
Great Awakening to a new consciousness of see our interconnectedness

In our conversation, we discussed:

Why she left big firm law practice and how she knew when it was time to leave
Asking God to give her a sign when it was time to leave and how that sign showed up
Transitioning from large firm and the doors that opened for her when she was authentic with herself and stayed true to her authenticity
Her role as consultant in the trade negotiations between the Philippines and Japan. She explains that she worked with a young group of lawyers who wanted to help Filipino people – advising them on the effects of trade and investment negotiations between the Philippines and Japan and how this trade deal would affect them.
Whether and how people can have a say in international treaties between their governments.
Having people be a part of the process and the decisions that will affect their lives – and addressing how to deal with misinformation and propaganda that may influence or manipulate one’s involvement in the process
Teaching meditation to law students; starting every class with a meditation
What if international negotiations, summits, negotiations etc. started with group meditation and moments of stillness?
How to engage with others who think differently from us without name-calling and without aligning into divisive teams but by finding our common ground
What it means to be an integrative lawyer or what integrative law means to her
Changing the consciousness of law and how this is important to change systems and structures
The “Great Awakening” to an understanding that we live on one planet and that we are one human family and this awakening is necessary for us to solve the problems facing us such as climate change and the pandemic.
The Legal Education Advancement Program and how it is changing the legal education in the Philippines

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Geraldine Johns-Putra

Email: geraldine@geraldinegrace.com.au

Her Law Firm Name: Geraldine Grace

Podcast: New Earth Lawyer

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Brief Bio:

Geraldine Johns-Putra is a corporate lawyer who uses the law to build impactful, human-centered, earth-friendly enterprises and ecosystems. She works with businesses, governing bodies and institutions, and enterprises for happier humans and a healthier planet.

From Geraldine Grace website:

I am based in Melbourne, Australia.

I am an expert in ESG, impact, business & human rights and modern slavery.

I established my law practice in 2020, focussing on enterprises seeking purpose, and actors in the impact economy.

I am legal advisor to not-for-profits with a national reach in impact and purpose.

I work with Boards to optimise performance and help enterprises embed purpose and integrate human rights into their business.

I have over 20 years' experience practicing law in Australia, the UK, Hong Kong and mainland China.

I have worked for large global and Australian law firms and was a partner of a top-tier Australian law firm for several years.

I sit on the peak governing body of Australia's largest university.

My mission is to use the law to build more impactful legal enterprises & ecosystems for a happier world.

Show Notes:

Main theme: self-agency and assertion of rights balanced with our interconnectedness and being in service of others

In this episode, we discuss:

Why she includes this statement “I acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land where I work and live, the Yaluk-ut Weelam Clan of the Boon Wurrung. I pay my respects to their Elders, past, present and emerging.” on her website.
How these times show the growing-up of humanity
How self-agency and service of others go hand in hand with each other
Geraldine’s question that we should all ask ourselves individually and as part of businesses and enterprises: “How can I be of service of others and how can I be of service of the planet”
Having wisdom and love as the driving forces that elevate all of us
The role of healing ourselves is the first step in our work for healing others and the world
Participating in society and the rationality of voting
There is no left and right; there is us.
Creating safe spaces in conversations – even with people who don’t think like we do
Her work in identifying her values and claiming her purpose and how she integrates these in her work
Creating human-centered, earth-friendly enterprises and ecosystems and finding alternative ways to do things such as with B-corporations and impact investing
What integrative law and what being an integrative lawyer mean to her
How she developed a successful integrative law practice with a client list full of people, businesses and enterprises wanting to make a positive impact in the world

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Show Notes:

In this episode with J. Kim Wright, we discuss:

What integrative law means to her
Her vision and hopes for Integrative Lawyers of the World and the integrative law movement
The connected layers and ripples of integrative legal work
Examples of some integrative law projects going on in the world
how the pandemic has pushed us forward and how we are at a crossroads for building whole new systems
Redesigning systems so that they are based on generosity, authenticity, integrity, love, and really taking care of each other
The difference between being accountable and being held accountable
Her joy in the “the magic” of life; she describe the serendipity she has experienced and the spirituality she developed from living on her path
How integrative lawyers from around the world, including those in Series 1 and 2, have inspired her.

Summary of Snippets:

Snippet 1: Kim explains what integrative law means to her.

Snippet 2: Kim talks about how having a community for integrative lawyers gives courage for lawyers to be in integrity with themselves and explore and find their own expression of integrative law.

Snippet 3: Kim shares her joy in the “the magic” of life; she describe the serendipity she has experienced and the spirituality she developed from living on her path

Snippet 4: Kim shares how she can watch the news and see all the terrible things and be okay. She knows all these integrative lawyers and inspiring people who are working on the world’s problems and she knows we are in safe hands.

Some Quotes

“Not only do I want to be a role model but I wanted to provide lots of role models for lots and lots of people.” J. Kim Wright on why she started Integrative Lawyers of the World podcast and the integrative law community

“Integrative law is about the people and a holistic view of who we are in a system.” – J. Kim Wright

“The circumstances help us see where we are. We can sometimes change the circumstances and sometimes we can change who we are.” - J. Kim Wright

“Finding people who felt they were alone and letting them belong to something --that these people who are in their own communities just considered weird lawyers are actually pioneers of something that is unfolding, that’s different from the way we were trained in law school in the past.” J. Kim Wright on the integrative law movement and community

“There’s so much to learn from every one of them and all their expressions of how to be an integrative lawyer. They open new possibilities and --- it’s one of the ways…I can live in the world. You know if you watch the news and see terrible things happening, I have something that balances that because I have these inspiring people who are working on the world’s problems. And, I know that we are in safe hands.” - J. Kim Wright

“Let’s redesign what we were doing as lawyers so that we have all these wonderful values that are more popular now than ever before. I think the old system was built on security and fear. But, what if we built a system on generosity, integrity, authenticity, and love and really taking care of each other?” J. Kim Wright on how the pandemic has pushed us forward and how we are at a crossroads for building whole new systems.

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Klaartje Freeke & Wikke Monster went from big prestigious criminal defense law firms to opening their own, Freeke & Monster. They do all matters but focus on criminal defense, victim representation, and corporate and commercial matters.

In our conversation, we talk about:

Forgiveness and acceptance in criminal matters
Seeing the human in the suspect
Giving voice to the victim
Lawyers as Changemakers
Re-designing the courtroom (in a juvenile court)

Notable Moments:

What does being an integrative lawyer mean to you?

(KLAARTJE) As our work as a lawyer, when we take our time to listen and be compassionate…..that is really what our work is about

(Wikke)If you like it or not, as a human being, we are all connected. That is not a wish or dream, it’s how it is so we better deal with it. It’s our job as professionals….to show that, to live that, to acknowledge that.

(Klaartje) This is really about a personal transformation is possible…and when it’s possible, it’s worth so much. When they feel that, people feel that everything else is extra…because that is really enough for most people.

When you think about it (re-designing the courtroom) …doesn’t depend on the space but the space is part of the conversation….when you have the right space, making just decisions.

What is Lawyers as Changemakers

It’s really about making room for our network, a group of people who feel law is about, our passion, the reason we started being lawyers….the basis and essence of our foundation

When we started practicing a new way – talking about forgiveness, we were afraid that our peers would reject us and think we were soft – laugh us out of the bar….actually many felt the same

How can you defend someone if you know he did it…maybe there is some information in them. As lawyers, we have privileges and we should use it in a valuable way.

This podcast features the song “Panu’s Bandstand” by texasradiofish (c) copyright 2020, available under a Creative Commons Attribution Noncommercial (3.0) license. http://dig.ccmixter.org/files/texasradiofish/62499 Ft: Panu

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After working as a lawyer on the legal staff of a judge, Nitya Bansal realized that the litigation and criminal law paths were not for her. She went back to school and earned a master’s degree in International Peace Studies from the University for Peace (A UN Mandated university in Costa Rico). She currently focuses on mediation with a dream of building an online mediation and resolution platform .

In our conversation, we discussed:

What integrative law means to Nitya
Going from being disheartened with the practice of law to loving her practice (changing from working as lawyer/judicial clerk to getting a masters in international peace studies
She shared a story about how she felt when a judge ordered the death penalty in a case, where she had recommended a life sentence; this case was a turning point for her where she knew she needed to do something different
Becoming a mediator of business disputes -- dreams of mediating international disputes
Dream – project of creating an online mediation platform
Difference between conflict resolution and dispute resolution
How a genuine and sincere public apology can help heal conflict but what matters more than saying an apology is feeling the apology and the intention to make good on that feeling
Mindfulness and being aligned with the Universe

Notable moments:

I liked law but it disheartened me. I started looking what else I can do.

If you do something for a good cause and aligned with the Universe, your needs will be taken care of.

What does integrative law mean to you? It’s a way of lawyering that does not separate people but brings people together.

My mindfulness works at a different a level – opens space for things to come into your life that you yourself may not be capable enough to imagine or dream.

When we really want to do something and that something is not just for our own personal interest, trust, and then our needs get taken care of.

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She has worked for more than 20 years as a traditional lawyer. However, the traditional way seemed toxic and she was looking for a better way to practice law. In this search, she found J. Kim Wright, integrative law, and conscious contracts. She now uses conscious contracts with her business clients.

In our conversation, we discuss:

Her journey to integrative law and going from hating the practice of law to loving it
How some colleagues think the things that she does is cute but they are missing the point. Conscious contracts and integrative law skills help lawyers better help their clients by giving lawyers additional skill sets.
Living in fear or living with love is the difference between reacting (fear) from, to creating (love), life
Being in the preset moment with clients
What integrative law means to her

Notable moments:

1. I spent more than 20 yeas as traditional lawyer. Nowadays my colleagues look at the things that I do as cute but not something they can trust or they believe there is consistence [substance]. But really I can do things in another way. It is important to show the movement and show the world and legal community that other skills we put in our abilities and help people, help us, and help people.

A lot of lawyers or people who give up law practice came to me and want to take some coffee and some conversation about how I can change my practice ….so working to inspire people is very powerful, plant the seeds with that – 2 to 3 hours in agenda each week to talk with lawyers who feel uncomfortable with traditional practice and don’t know how to change – I feel insecure all the time but I choose to go and change.
I like to say that you can choose between two things: fear and love and you can do all the things that you do thinking about fear. .. the fear that you have to protect yourself or you can go with fear or choose to –if you just choose the fear, you are just reacting to protect yourself, you are not living your life as a protagonist. You are just reacting to things that you see and you are not free to choose the things. So, when I feel fear, I think okay – let’s go. You cannot avoid fear or conflict.
I can feel that there is more than a brain – more than my mind….there is this moment. It’s where the magic happens. That’s where I choose…because as an integrative lawyer it is what I put to my clients.

5. I lived two lives separately….I need to be one person at work and one person in my private life.

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In this conversation with well-respected and well-loved legal pioneer and founder of collaborative law, Stu Webb, we discussed:

Love & Fear
Duality and Non-Duality
Making the paradigm to non-duality, higher consciousness of love –
GROKKING IT [love consciousness],
His journey to GROKKING IT (going from understanding intellectually to feeling it deeply and fully in your heart and gut), and
The Mind-Blowing powerful & positive effect that holding higher space has on our lawyering and the clients and communities we serve

Notable Moments:

(6:46) Timeless Connection. Om Mani Padme Hum Chant with Stu

(8:04 – 8:34) There isn’t only one way or one way; the shift is about individuals getting it. Got it.

(10:45 – 11:42) Acknowledge the waves but stay in the ocean

(17:40 – 18:04) Practice holding space. What does integrative law mean to you?

(37:00 – 38:59) When you are in non-duality, things work out. Serendipity abounds. The more you let go, the more you can hear from the Universe.

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Dr. Amar Dhall is a polymath supporting authentic people to embody their unique genius and live richly meaningful, empowered and holistically abundant lives.

He works with individuals, couples, teams and organisations using a blended approach of one-on-one, group and adult educational approaches by harnessing the power of his unique neuro-somatic approach to emotionally intelligent leadership.

Dr. Dhall's projects:

The Canberra Trauma and Well-Being Centre: https://traumaandwell-being.com

Primal Intelligence: https://primalintelligence.com.au

The Lawyers' Centre for Performance and Wellbeing: Website in development.

Dr. Dhall's website: https://amardhall.com

In our conversation, we discuss:

Trauma, law, quantum physics, ideals and pragmatic tools. An underlying theme that connected it all was the idea of “interconnectedness” --

The interconnectedness between our past experiences and trauma to our present beliefs and future dreams
The interconnectedness between individuals and society,
The interconnectedness between humans and animals and the environment;
how law’s purpose is to provide some organization to all these intersections and crossroads.

Some specific topics discussed:

Trauma, being trauma-informed, trauma-wise, and why lawyers need to be trained in trauma;
Some tools for dealing with trauma
We are all one with an equivalent right to exist
His work with men’s groups
His DJ work – finding time for play and fun
What being an integrative lawyer mean to him

Notable Moments

(10 seconds)

Success does not come from one person being brilliant; it comes from a web of support and love.

(23 seconds)

The role of exploring trauma for lawyers, owning trauma themselves, being aware of blind spots created by the trauma so they can serve their clients in a way that is dignified and empowered.

(56 seconds)

Life’s currency is best valued in meaning, not happiness.

(36 seconds)

For living a life of integrity, personally and professionally, why is it important to uncover the hidden choices we make?

Context: To grow & progress, I need to become aware of something that I wasn’t aware of. Uncovering hidden choices is the first step in being able to change them.

(1 min)

Power is like oxygen. You don’t know it’s not there unless you don’t have it.

Power dynamic shift from dominion, power-over culture, to consent, power-with culture

(30 sec)

Good boundaries create freedom. Avoiding short-term discomfort of having a difficult conversation at the risk of building long-term resentment.

Difficult conversation or long-term resentment – which do you want?

(1.1 sec)

What does being an integrative lawyer mean to you?

Being a whole person aware of my connection to the whole of society. Bringing as much context to this wholeness and fulfillment that I can.

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In a recent writing*, Magistrate Gabriela explains her life’s journey:

"My life journey expresses my passion and purpose to work always and only, ‘for the children’s sake’."

Initially finding the practice of law toxic and acrimonious, she left the practice of law to become a full-time mother to her four children. In 2008, she had cancer and the chemotherapy treatments forced her to pause and be still. In this stillness, she heard a calling to go back to law. Her children were older now and she listened to this call. This time, she practiced law in a way in which she could integrate her values and be herself in her practice.

She is now a Magistrate in the Children’s and Maintenance Court. She has a master’s in Restorative Justice. She incorporates restorative justice and integrative law principles in her Court. For instance, she started the “For The Children’s Sake” Mediation Project, for which she organized a team of volunteers to mediate litigation matters before the Children’s and Maintenance Court. The mediators volunteer on Saturdays and they are trained to shift the parties’ emphasis on the children. This project was recognized by The Hague Institute for Innovating Law in 2019.

Note, her official and formal title is Magistrate. However, in conversation, she said to simply call her Gabby.

In our conversation, we discuss:

Why she hated the practice of law for the first five years of her practice, which led to her leaving the practice to become a full-time mother and support her husband’s career (minister of a church)
How cancer gave her the time and space to hear her inner voice speak her calling
Her experience in returning to the practice of law after taking several years off to raise her children
Her discovery of Restorative Justice – she was looking for meditation training materials and found some materials on Restorative Justice.
The difference between Restorative Justice and mediation
How she incorporates Justice in her courtroom and practice
Family-Friendly Courtroom: stuffed animals and toys for children; empowering children by allowing them to wear her robe; listening to the children and their needs
For The Children’s Sake mediation project
How developing and living with compassion and wisdom is a driving force in her life, for which she prays daily
Setting the tone in her court as one that solves the child’s problems, not one that rewards or punishes the parents
Some life lessons and inspiration
Enjoy the season that you’re in. Life has different seasons. One tends to compare themselves to others who are in a different season and this leads to suffering and causes one to miss the joys of their own season. (@21:55)
Experiencing yourself as a living contradiction (@1:08:56 – 1:11:00)
What being an integrative lawyer means to her
Having authenticity in your practice and giving space for different types of lawyers so people can be themselves and not a portrayal of what a lawyer is supposed to be like
Law is about organizing and governing human relationships
How practicing with restorative justice and integrative law practices changed her from hating her legal practice to loving it.

*https://www.wcpp.gov.za/sites/default/files/Biography-%20Mckellar%20G.pdf

For the Children’s Sake Mediation Project: Having volunteer lawyers, in private practice, volunteer on Saturdays to mediate for family law cases.

For details on this project listen, starting at 1:12:46 and visit the provided link.

Notable Moments:

What does integrative law, or what does being an integrative lawyer, mean to you?

31:42: “Law is all about governing relationships”

32:32: “For me, we are in a profession whose main business is the business of human relationships, then surely we ought to want to be people who heal relationships because that speaks to social cohesion…”

32:36 “ …We all talk about wanting peace on earth, but we aren’t going to get peace on earth if we aren’t restoring, rebuilding, and repairing broken relationships in our society, our community, in the business world, in the environmental world, in the family sphere, in the schools, wherever it is.”

33:02: “It feels like somebody hijacked the legal profession and it became a profession of adversarial winner -loser, rewarder – punisher, and we completely lost sight of the thread of understanding that as legal practitioners, we should be in the business of healing relationships.”

(@ 36 seconds)

How do you work with your team, and not to or for them? Listen to Magistrate McKellar discuss how this shift to “with” has a significant and profound impact on leadership and meaningful change.

(@51 seconds)

How do you think being an integrative lawyer will change the way you feel about practicing law? For Magistrate McKellar, it changed her from hating the practice of law to loving it.

(@ 1 min)

“There must be a better way to practice family law.”

(@ 1 min)

Cancer gave her the time and space to hear her calling.

(which led to her creating an integrative law practice in her courtroom and community)

Integrative Lawyers of the World: Recent Episodes

J. Kim Wright, Kerry Raleigh, Cutting Edge Law Enterprises Inc. A Partner In The Integrative Law Movement