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It requires a level of unfounded confidence to “fake it ‘til you make it.” Unfounded confidence is not necessarily a negative trait, and in fact can pave the way to a higher level of leadership competence. But there are pitfalls too. In this episode, Bill and Ralph discuss the pros and cons of unfounded confidence. If you subscribe to the “fake it ‘til you make it” philosophy, this is a must-listen.

Prefer to read the transcript?

*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors

Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. This is the space where we discuss leadership team and organizational topics and better practices. We like to provide concepts and ideas that you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop your higher potential in your work and in your leadership. I’m Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.

And today, Bill, I love this topic that we’re going to dive into unfounded confidence.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: I think that you specifically picked it for me, but I think this idea, though, of having too much confidence in how it can create disconnection. So what do we actually mean when we talk about unfounded confidence?

Bill Berthel: I think sometimes it can be too much. I think sometimes it can actually be quite effective. Right. This idea of unfounded confidence is it’s, a cognitive bias that in 1999 was dubbed the Dunning Kruger effect. So, this is a model in psychology that suggests that very early on, we have some level of ignorance about something, but a high level of confidence. And then as we gain knowledge, we start to uncover what we don’t know, and our confidence dips from there. But we tend to start learning, and we start to build a founded confidence later through that learning. But this unfounded confidence is that early stage where we’re a little ignorant about the topic. Maybe we don’t know anything, but we demonstrate a high level of confidence in it. And I think this is a leadership trait that can work and that, sometimes backfires on us.

Ralph Simone: So I’m curious, how does it work and what causes it to backfire? I mean, I’m curious how it can work.

Bill Berthel: So I think I’ve observed in some leaders and some people that where it works, it’s because they couple this unfounded confidence with charisma, with charm, with, I think, what’s likability?

Ralph Simone: Ah.

Bill Berthel: those are my terms. That charisma, that charm, I think if they’re charming, I think it has to be authentic. You know, it’s a likable quality, and then that confidence is a strength.

Ralph Simone: So it doesn’t come off as arrogance when it’s coupled with that charisma.

Bill Berthel: Exactly. Right. So we’re talking charisma, charm, likability are very subjective. Right. So I think it’s probably different for different relationships, different people. But, yes, I think the flip side, it can come across as arrogance or what, is that. That kind of cocky attitude, maybe? Right. Or that it distances us? it creates more questioning than influence and acceptance.

Ralph Simone: Got it.

So how does this connect to a term that I’ve used, I’ve probably shared with people. And I think I read it in a lot of self development material. Fake it till you make it.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: Is that linked to this concept?

Bill Berthel: Oh, I think so. I think so. You know, think about the work in the book presence by Amy Cuddy. Right. She reframes “fake it till you make it” to “fake it till you become it.” And I think that is the effect we’re talking about, is there is some faking it in the early stages because we don’t have the knowledge, skills and ability in that specific topic. Maybe a little bit, maybe a tiny bit of experience. But you, you know, genuine unfounded confidence is like a high level of ignorance. At the beginning. We are faking it to some extent. I think when we’re faking it with that influential charisma, charm, and likeability, we get permission to fake it as we learn.

Ralph Simone: So you got me thinking a lot about this. So then maybe a more palatable way of describing that is act as if. Act as if. Which gives us the confidence. But how do you reconcile this with some of the other things that Brene Brown and others have talked about, the importance of vulnerability in leadership?

Bill Berthel: Yeah, I think if you’re a, one trick pony and all you have is confidence, I think you’re going to be received as arrogant the second time, if not the first, even if you’re charming. Yeah. So I think it’s a both and model of admitting our fallibility. Even there’s room in our unfounded confidence to share that we don’t know something. I don’t think those are opposed to one another. I think we can be confident in that topic and also invite other people. And it doesn’t mean you’re just taking center stage or taking the front and leaving room for no one. Let me tell you a little story. I just recently came back from Utah for a training, and, the check in, like we do in some of our trainings, they had a check in and they had a small list of criteria. They wanted everybody to check in with your name a little bit about your organization, kind of where you’re coming from geographically, because people are coming from all over the world for this. And then they asked for your superpower as the last check in piece. Right. I happen to have gone last. So I had the advantage of there about 20 people in the room of everybody going, and a gentleman well before me, his superpower, he shared this topic. He said, unfounded confidence. You know, like, oh, I want to connect with this guy. Really? Like, and he had charm, he had charisma, he was likable right away, at least for me. I think most people liked him quickly. He reminded me a lot of you, Ralph. He really did.

Ralph Simone: The unfounded confidence piece, I’m sure.

Bill Berthel: The charm and the likability as well. And actually, I approached him later and let him know that, he reminded me of you. But when it was my turn, I went backwards up the list. I said, my superpower is not following directions very well. I got everybody laughing because I’m already doing it in the opposite way. When I did approach this other gentleman who shared the unfounded confidence, he said to me, he said, I’m going to watch you through the rest of this program. He said, I really like the way you did that. You went backwards. I’m going to really watch it. I said, well, I really hope I don’t let you down. He said, oh, don’t worry about it. I’ve got your back. It’s that kind of partnering right away with his unfounded confidence. He had room for others.

Ralph Simone: Yeah.

Bill Berthel: I was watching him admit when he didn’t know, but there was still this presence of, I’ve got this. And I think what was key, what I was watching with him, was his ability to recover when he didn’t know.

Ralph Simone: So I love that distinction, Bill. I love the story. It sounded like more of a me to we confidence very much. And it’s also, I’m thinking about spin. Right. When leaders spin things too confidently or too positively, there’s often some concern, or it almost becomes the joke because it’s no longer credible. And so that is when it can become a detriment. Right. When we’re unfounded confidence about where we are, it’s not that we can’t get through this, but where we are is not very good.

Bill Berthel: Correct. And when it’s that unfounded confidence that gets in the way of our awareness and our consciousness in those interactions, I think becomes a, detriment more than a problem.

I think that’s the darker side of this idea of you can bring on a healthy dose of confidence without knowing as a leader, get people involved, get some influence and inspiration going, but a both/and. Invite invite them into it. Leave the room, leave the space for them, leave a lot of room for them.

Ralph Simone: So, one of the perspective shifts that you’ve given me on this is that you oftentimes people connect confidence with knowing and experience in having been there before. But you’re saying it could be confidence in the group, confidence in the system.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely.

Ralph Simone: And that’s very different. So how would we coach leaders or what could they do on their own to kind of observe for what might be an unhealthy dose of unfounded confidence? What types of guidance would we give?

Bill Berthel: Yeah, I think there’s a few things here, right? So the first piece is the awareness, paying attention to am I tipping into this space of what looks like arrogance? How am I being received by others? Are they engaged with me not out of compliance or because of my position? Are they freely sharing their ideas? Is there psychological safety and a pretty free flow of information or idea sharing? If there is, you haven’t tipped over to that place of turning people off, either through arrogance or too much distancing or sharing too much confidence. Right? Overdoing it or spinning, as you put it. I like that. I think second to that is have that willingness to cultivate more. I’m calling it charisma and charm. And I know that’s very subjective and I think with different people that can look like different things. I think that likability factor is important in leadership. And I know we can’t be genuinely liked by everyone, but I think the more adaptable we are, the more we meet people where they are, and the more we invite them into participation, the more likable we become. I think we have to have genuine willingness to cultivate that likability.

Ralph Simone: I like how you distinguish that. I think we’ve talked about balancing in other podcasts confidence with humility. And I think part of humility is being open that to knowing that you don’t know and that you couldn’t possibly know, but that doesn’t need to get in the way of moving forward and getting to know. And I think that’s an important distinction.

Bill Berthel: And I think that’s the piece of acting like you are a know it all is the style of confidence that won’t work very well. I think in today’s day and age of information, so rapidly increasing new technologies, new abilities, new skill sets, we’re not going to be in a position to know it all as a leader. A leader is someone who can’t know it all and can’t do it all themselves. And so I think we demonstrate that, but not at the cost of our confidence. Not at the cost of our confidence. Our confidence is creating safety and security and stability for other people that are saying, I’m following, I’m taking your lead. We give that over to a safe and secure place, to a person who is dialed in their confidence.

Ralph Simone: I’m becoming sensitized, maybe in my own language, that maybe I’ve got to be more mindful of we’ve got this as opposed to I got this of it, and because there’s a confidence in the team and in myself. But we’ve got this, and I think I’m going to pay more attention to that on an ongoing basis.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. I love it. Love it. Thanks, Ralph.

Ralph Simone: Thank you, Bill.

Bill Berthel: And thanks for listening. You can listen to a new podcast two times every month here at Get Emergent or wherever you listen to your podcasts. This is where we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas balanced with what we hope you find are better practices that you can apply directly to your work and your leadership. Thank you.

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Even leaders have leaders. And sometimes it’s challenging for leaders to express concerns and offer feedback to those at a higher level of leadership. The solution lies in learning to lean into the inevitable discomfort of sharing your perspective with whomever needs to hear it, regardless of their position, and in creating conditions throughout the organization that allow others to feel safe in doing the same. Listen as Ralph and Bill discuss and make suggestions to help you “lead up” effectively.

Prefer to read the transcript?

Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. This is the space where we discuss leadership and team organizational topics and better practices. We like to provide concepts and ideas that you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop your higher potential in your work and in your leadership. I’m Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel: Ralph today’s topic of leading up means a lot to me. You know, I’ve, in my past, and maybe still do to some extent, I hold back a little bit. You know, I’ve kind of bitten my tongue on a good idea or I won’t speak up. And it’s usually out of concern or even as strong as a fear. I’m afraid of the other person’s reaction, whether it’s my boss, whether that’s my partner, whether it’s my colleague. Right. I’m holding back.

Ralph Simone: I think it’s normal. I think we all do it to a certain extent, and I think part of it could be fear based. Part of it’s the power dynamic.

Bill Berthel: Yes.

Ralph Simone: In the context of the work we do with organizations, I think leading up can be a scary proposition because we don’t know how it’s going to land with our boss or we don’t know if it will be well received. But it’s a vital practice because what we know with our work with emotional intelligence, the higher up in an organization you go, the least amount of meaningful feedback you get. So how are you going to make good business decisions and choices if you don’t have all the information? So I think this is a vital practice to make people less uncomfortable. I’m not going to say make them comfortable. And I think part of leading up is leaning in the discomfort of sharing your perspective with whomever needs to hear it.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, I like reframing it, maybe away from comfort, more towards more practiced. I might not get comfortable with it in the end, but more practice will provide more familiarity with this.

And can you unpack just for a second for me, this idea that the higher up in an organization you go, you may be getting less meaningful feedback? Is that what you said?

Ralph Simone: Yeah, I think people hedge their bets. I think they’re reluctant, and this could be because of baggage they bring from other organizations, but I think they’re reluctant to let the emperor know that he or she has no clothes on. And it could be that the organization doesn’t have enough psychological safety.

Bill Berthel: Sure.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. My kids challenged me on this because they said, dad, you seem to remember all these stories when you spoke up a lot. How about the times you didn’t. Obviously, those aren’t the stories I’m telling. I know there were plenty of times that I have bitten my tongue and that said something, but to what detriment? You know, I like to frame this from the enterprise perspective. Would the organization or enterprise suffer by me being cautious, by me being self protective? And I think early in my career, I think it was more naivete than courage. I think I tended to challenge things and speak up, almost regardless of who it was in front of me, if it didn’t make sense or if I didn’t think it needed to be done. And I think I was reasonably skilled at finding the right tone or key to bring these things up.

Bill Berthel: The example that comes to mind for me is a little extreme, but I think it applies here. It’s just post 911, and if we’re going to airports to fly, the slogans, the banners, the signs, reminded us all that if you see something, say something. Yeah, we needed permission to do that, didn’t we?

Ralph Simone: Yeah. And I think we did, and I think we do. And I think one of the things, if you’re a leader of an organization, and we believe everyone’s a leader, is what are you doing? Or what are you saying when you see things, what are you changing? What exists in your culture, either stated or unstated, that makes it more difficult for people to say something, to speak up. I mean, one of the reasons I wanted to talk about this today is that this seems to be something that many clients bring up in coaching conversations. They’ll even tiptoe around it before they’ll even cut to the chase around. You know, I have this issue with my boss. That sometimes is a long lead up, and it could be because they’re not quite trusting yet with me and their reluctance to put it in play. And in some cases, and I try not to judge it, because their reluctance is their reluctance. It almost seems like a fairly benign issue. It doesn’t even seem like it would be a showstopper. But there is this great reluctance to provide supervisors or bosses feedback, or even a resistance to make a request of them to do something differently.

Bill Berthel: What you’re touching on there for me, Ralph is this idea that perhaps with a coach or a trusted colleague, there’s a practice run. Saying it before saying, need to say, it could be a step to get us there.

Ralph Simone: I think there’s even a step before that.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, what’s up?

Ralph Simone: I found it’s worked out well with a few clients. I just have them write it out.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, good.

Ralph Simone: As if they were going to say it, but don’t say it yet. just get it on paper.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, yeah.

Ralph Simone: What is it that you’re asking or sharing? Why is it important? And what impact could it have on the organization or the team or the enterprise? And right at first, and I actually take the pressure of. I don’t say, when are you going to commit to have the conversation? Because often there’s not a readiness, but collecting their thoughts is an easier activity for them, to perform.

Bill Berthel: Get it out of our head. Get it onto a piece of paper.

Ralph Simone: Yeah, yeah. I did write about this recently, but I’m recalling a story, and I laugh about it to this day. When I was a senior associate at Coopers and Lybrand, and I was working on this fairly visible project, and I was working with managers and partners in our regional office, and there was some important information we needed for the project, and it resided with this national treasurer, this partner in the New York City office. Now, I had not yet got the memo that you don’t call this guy. So I, you know, because he was certainly three levels over me. So I just dialed him up and asked the question, got the information, and a week later, you know, came back to the meeting, and the partners were incredulous. They said, yeah, and the manager, how’d you get this? Well, I called the guy, and they say, well, nobody calls him. And I said, well, that explains why he gave me so much time and information.

Bill Berthel: you’re right.

Ralph Simone: And many of these things are self imposed now. They’re self imposed based on either assumptions we make or perhaps some experiences that we’ve had. I think I refer to this at the beginning, the power dynamic. Sometimes organizational titles and structure can create this caste system unknowingly. That limits what people feel that they can offer or share.

Bill Berthel: So just because that person I could share a message with is either in a different space or a different level of the organization, that automatically creates some type of barrier, some type of gap in being able to bring up what I need to bring up, lead up.

Ralph Simone: Yeah, well, I’ve seen it in healthcare. I mean, I have a. I’ve had a couple of health challenges. I have a tremendous amount of respect for doctors and nurses and what they’ve been able to do for me and others. But I see in my parents, they had this paradigm. The doctor was all knowing, and they wouldn’t ask any questions, and they wouldn’t advocate for themselves, and they wouldn’t share information that they had that they thought would be useful because the doctor was all knowing. So I think there’s a mutual responsibility here for leading up to work, and leading up is really influencing. Right. Everybody should feel like they can influence and be influenced in an organization. I listened to some of the language. We have to eliminate these perceived or real barriers. We’ve got to stop obsessing about the chain of command. I’m not suggesting there isn’t a need for a chain of command. We’ve got to stop fretting over being challenged. If we’re a leader, we got to not get so sensitive about someone getting outside their lane. I mean, if your focus is on performance, if your focus is on learning about better ways to do something, you have to be open as a leader. Set a direction, turn your people loose, and let them engage with whoever they need to to get the job done.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. Back to your example in healthcare, I think we can take a lesson from what I’m starting to see in some of my own care, is that, some of the younger doctors, I don’t mean to be ageist, but it seems like there’s a new way of interacting with their clients, and they ask for the dialogue with you. I think they’re trying to get permission. I think as leaders, we can do that. We can ask for the dialogue more. We can demonstrate being more open to being led up to.

Ralph Simone: Well, the more open we are, the more information flows. The more information flows, the better and quicker we make decisions to move the organization forward. I often net these things out as being pragmatic. Now my kids will challenge me on. Also my station in life provides me with a little bit more power or credibility, and helps me challenge things that need to be challenged. I think I need to be mindful that there are other backgrounds and identities that might feel less empowered. So it’s even more incumbent to create this psychological safety where that everybody feels that they can ask, offer, or share something regardless of their position.

Bill Berthel: So what I hear you saying is that there are other variables, perhaps the station in life, perhaps systemic barriers that are there. We may have some different things to navigate, but we all have an opportunity to step into that space a little bit more maybe than we’re doing.

Ralph Simone: Yes. And I think so. We can’t just say, speak up. We have to mine for speaking up. We have to dig into it. We have to recognize that there are some barriers that cause people to be reluctant. But we strongly feel that a business that promotes leading up is a business that is never lacking in innovative ideas. When you have the trust and the safety in the open, communication. Those are, prerequisites for a high performing team or organization. And that means that there’s a free flow of information regardless of where you sit in the organization.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. Multiple directions of that flow. Right. No matter where you sit, that information is flowing in multiple directions.

Ralph Simone: One of the simple tips that I seem to come back to with people is what is it that you’re frustrated with or challenged by or complaining about as it relates to your boss and to at least turn that into a request, write it out, you know, what is it that you would ask of them and why? And then sit with it for a minute. But then let’s talk about if it’s still important. Why are you reluctant to have that conversation? Now, lets practice it.

Bill Berthel: That’s a gem right there. Let’s not go past that too quickly, because, turning our complaints into requests is what? How do I do that? I’m holding this thing about my boss. That’s frustration. Right. And I’ve got this complaint, this frustration in my head. How do I get that to be a request?

Ralph Simone: Well, I think, first of all, lean into that it exists. Don’t try and pretend you’re not frustrated.

Bill Berthel: Right. Right.

Ralph Simone: Secondly, I think I would put some context around it. Why is it a frustration to you?

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: And why is it important for it to change? Then? I would, think in terms of what would a, future outcome be, what would need to look different or be different for me to be satisfied? So that’s kind of the end in mind outcome.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: What’s the time frame? And then the purpose of making a request is to get a yes.

Bill Berthel: That’s right.

Ralph Simone: And so one of the things that I think, and this is why you don’t just force people to have conversations. Timing of the conversation is critical. So I think the mood of the person making the request and the mood of the person you’re requesting something of the receptivity is important. So picking a time when you could maximize getting a yes.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. Not in a high stress time, not when we’re.

Ralph Simone: No. Now business is really lousy, and you’re going to ask for the raise that you deserve? Probably not. Doesn’t mean you don’t ask for it. But I think the timing is important. I was doing, a talk a couple of weeks ago, and I actually think I created disconnection in a part of the talk, which was not the intention, by the way, but I got to ask this question. And it was somewhat around leading up, but it was really more generalized around just communications and because of all the differences of ages in nationalities and ethnicities and genders in the workplace, we now have to be more and more careful about what we say and how we say it. And I said no. And I should have acknowledged and validated, but I said no. I said, that’s the very problem. We’re not engaging in authentic conversations that we really need to have because we’re trying way, way too hard to not offend anybody and to be too careful. And I think that’s what used to prevent me from saying what I needed to say. But it was mostly out of self preservation. And so I think let’s arm people with the skills, but first let’s address the belief system that’s preventing them from having that conversation. We’ve said this in other podcasts. The most important conversations and relationships and organizations are the ones that we’re not having.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. I see these differences, these other variables that you’re mentioning as more reason to have the conversation. We have more opportunity for inclusion by having the conversation than by looking for variables to get in the way. Yeah, we will include more people if we have the conversations, whether that’s your list, ethnicity, whatever our background, gender. We need to have the conversation more so we get more included.

Ralph Simone: So here’s one of my tips that I give myself and I want to give to all the listeners.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, great.

Ralph Simone: If you find yourself thinking that somebody was out of line, asking something or saying something, get over yourself. Just get over yourself. Take it and act on it if it makes sense,

Bill Berthel: What’s next?

Ralph Simone: I don’t know. I think that. Get over yourself.

Bill Berthel: That’s it.

Ralph Simone: I think that’s it. Because I think that that gets in the way. You know, we talked about. Maybe I’ll add a little bit. We’ve talked about psychological safety in the past. How we respond to the way that people offer suggestions or question us will set a precedence for how others will do that and just consider it. That doesn’t mean that every idea is a good idea or every question, but don’t be offended by it. Who are they to ask me that? They’re a person who has that as a question. I think the other thing I’d add, and this is one of my favorite ground rules in any conversation, is you can ask or say anything about anything, because if it’s on your mind, it’s in the way of you focusing or concentrating or performing. Let’s not be so uptight as to who asked or how they asked it. Let’s get at the essence of how it could be useful for the organization or enterprise.

Bill Berthel: So the reason I asked what else I thought you were going to go to something that you’ve taught me, is that people are either wanting to be helped or being helpful.

Ralph Simone: Oh, good. I didn’t think of that.

Bill Berthel: I think he’s cut. Well, I think that’s what you’re saying in this. I think that, at least that’s what I’m hearing, is that if we’re not going to lead up or speak up, we’re holding on to that helpfulness.

Ralph Simone: Yeah.

Bill Berthel: We’re creating a barrier for that helpfulness to come out.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. And we do a lot of work in emotional intelligence. And I think how you say it does influence how receptive people are. I also think, don’t make too much of that either. You know, let’s not be offended. So easily offended. Let’s take the essence of what someone is asking for or offering, and let’s work with it to move forward.

Bill Berthel: I like it. Ralph thank you. Thanks, Bill, and thanks for listening. You can listen to a new podcast two times every month here at Get Emergent or wherever you listen to your podcasts. This is where we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas balanced with what we hope you find are best, better practices that you can apply directly to your work and your leadership. Thanks for listening.

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You’ve probably heard the saying “I wouldn’t ask anyone to do anything I wouldn’t do myself.” Perhaps you’ve said it yourself. But is it actually a sustainable leadership philosophy? After all, as leaders, we can’t possibly do everything ourselves. In fact, that’s precisely why we have teams. And it’s not practical to think leaders on their own can keep pace with the exponential changes shaping every industry today. If this hits home for you, this episode is a must-listen.

Prefer to read the transcript?

Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. This is the space where we discuss leadership team and organizational topics and better practices. We like to provide concepts and ideas that you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop your higher potential in all of your work and your leadership. I’m Bill Berthel

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone

Bill Berthel: Ralph, I’m excited to talk about this idea of old school credibility. You know, we hear the declaration, I wouldn’t ask anyone to do something I wouldn’t do from leaders.

Ralph Simone: Really I would. I built a whole career on doing that.

Bill Berthel: Well, you’re maybe more a progressive guy than some people we work with, but I agree with this topic when it comes to ethics and morals. Right. I would not ask anyone to do something I wouldn’t be willing to do from an ethical and a moral perspective. But I don’t think that’s what folks are saying. They’re really talking about this idea that, you know, if I’m not a subject matter expert in this space, I’m not going to have credibility to lead others. And I’m really excited to introduce Geoff Storm.

Geoff is with us today. Geoff is with us every recording.

Ralph Simone: Yes.

Bill Berthel: But today we asked him to join us in this conversation because as we were preparing, he had some beautiful examples of this in his career. Geoff welcome.

Geoff Storm: Thank you very much. It’s a pleasure to be here. on the mic this time, I guess.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, yeah.

Ralph Simone: So we already has the better voice.

Bill Berthel: Well, Geoff does have a voice for radio, but he’s got a handsome face too. So he’s not one of those guys with just a face for radio. But Geoff is our support from MPW and he is our recording technician. And Geoff it’s awesome to have you here every time, but to hear your voice today and your examples of where this has shown up in your career.

Could you share with us a little bit what you were sharing with Ralph and I earlier about how you felt in your leadership role?

Geoff Storm: I said, as soon as you started to sort of lay out what your plan was for today and where you were going to go with this podcast, I just kind of chimed in and said, this one really hits home for me because as you alluded to, my background is actually in this sort of thing, recording video, audio, that kind of thing. And then I went, twelve years ago now, I came to work for MPW, which is a full service advertising agency. So I mean, there are many people in that organization who do things that I cannot do, that I still, after twelve years, cannot do. They have skill sets and knowledge bases that are beyond the scope of mine. And suddenly I was in a leadership role with these people on my teams, and that was incredibly intimidating because I came from a background where I was managing people who did the same things that I did, and now suddenly I was managing people, whether it be a, designer or folks in our digital department, our web development department, who have skills. Again, they just have skills that I don’t have. It was a really, really difficult adjustment for me, and I will say this, if you’ll forgive me, for what may seem like a shameless plug. I actually went through the Get Emergent program, and I did some coaching with folks from Emergent, and that really helped me get over that. Again, I’ll call it an intimidation. and the thing that helped me was this idea of vulnerability. Right? Just admit that you don’t have those. It’s not my responsibility as a leader to be able to do the jobs, necessarily of the people that I’m leading. In fact, it’s impossible for me to do so. That’s why I have a team, right? I mean, you have more people because you can’t possibly do all the work yourself. And the key for me was when I just accepted that and was upfront with my team about it and said, you know, listen, I need you because you can do things I can’t do. You’re incredibly valuable to me, and I need to trust you to do this job, and I know that you’re going to do it well. And then it just comes down to all the basics of leadership that you guys talk about all the time. Make sure you’ve got the buy in. everybody understands the importance of the task, why we’re doing what we’re doing, what we want the end result to be, when it needs to be done, and let people go and do their thing.

Bill Berthel: Oh Geoff I love it. While we know as leaders we can’t do it all alone, there’s still a lot of emotions that come up with that, or a lot of senses and feelings. It’s very vulnerable space. We could feel intimidated in a way. We might work extra hard to try to catch up, but the change year over year in data being added to the Internet averages a 23% increase. In five years, the data has doubled. If we just take that as one indicator of how fast information changes, no one person is going to keep up with this.

Geoff Storm: Right, right.

Bill Berthel: Embrace that as you did. So you got some coaching, or you were able to really embrace that, to see there’s a different way right, right.

Geoff Storm: Absolutely.

Bill Berthel: Or we can hold on to this old school mindset. Right. That I’ve got to be able to roll up my sleeves and do the work or have done the work of the people that I’m leading.

Geoff Storm: You’re going to kill yourself if you try to do that.

Bill Berthel: I think so.

Geoff Storm: You have to trust that you have good people in place that are going to do their jobs and let them do their jobs, and you’re just sort of there to manage the flow of it, you know?

Bill Berthel: Yeah. Nicely said.

Ralph Simone: And I think this one cuts both ways. So we’ve been talking about the mindset of the leader, but then there is the culture and the acceptance of the organization for someone leading them that may not have all of the expertise that they have.

And I think that’s also something that we should address in this podcast, Bill.

Bill Berthel: Oh, absolutely. So I was recently interviewing a group of highly skilled metal workers, machinists, welders, and there was this universal attitude toward leadership of, I can’t follow a leader who didn’t do the work I did before, right. From the workforce. I don’t know that that person’s credible. I don’t know I can follow them if they haven’t been a welder, too, or a machinist, too. Right. For years, like these folks were talking about, like, they’ve got to have done this for 20 years. And so a quick follow up question is, how much has the technology changed in your field of expertise? They’re like, oh, it changes fast. So the math isn’t adding up for them. But I get the mindset. This isn’t new to any of us. I come from manufacturing. And by the way, this isn’t just, you know, factory work or blue collar. I’m putting air quotes up. blue collar workers, professionals believe this as well. Every level of organizations want some expertise and experience, and there’s nothing wrong with that. This is a both and of some experience, some subject matter expertise. But we think a real passion for leadership, stepping in to be the expert as the leader is what’s really needed here.

Ralph Simone: Well, this probably explains the trouble I had as a foreman in my early career, managing guys who were ASME certified welders

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: Because it did help to know a little bit about welding, to understand what was possible.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely.

Ralph Simone: And so I will admit I was at a disadvantage around some of the aspects of the work, but I didn’t need to be able to weld, to be able to organize the work, to be able to schedule the work, to be able to make sure the maintenance on the equipment was up to speed. So I think it’s, you talked about it earlier. It is a mindset shift that has to take place at all levels of the organization.

Bill Berthel: And so for those leadership components. Right. The ability to delegate, the ability to move resources, get barriers out of people’s way, while you don’t have to have that subject matter expertise of the specific technology, maybe that’s not an absolute. I’m sure there are some highly specialized leadership roles where that is needed. I get that. But it’s really that space of leadership.

As I was preparing for this episode, a, thought about how long does our education today or higher education remain really valuable or relevant in the workforce? And there’s this term I never heard of until I started researching this. It’s called an education’s half life. I don’t know if you guys are familiar with this, right? It’s the time it takes for higher education’s applicable effectiveness in the workforce to be noticeably decreased. And that half life is consistently shrinking over the last two decades. Now, this is not a quality of education problem. It’s a rapid growth and addition of knowledge and information. It’s the exponential growth of our knowledge, our abilities of our organizations, and our technology is the challenge. So one person keeping up with that, right, like a leader, is not a person who knows it all

Ralph Simone: Well, in fact, that seems like it would limit their ability to scale the organization, even the thought of that, because you would try to do everything, and I think you would actually plug the leadership pipeline. If that’s the approach you took.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think this is the both and proposition we’re talking about today. Right. We need passion for leadership with some knowledge and some experience. We need perhaps organizations to think about how they’re structuring their roles and responsibilities. And, we work with some very progressive organizations that have recognized having equitable development paths for folks in leadership, as in their technical fields. So an individual can have choice and not sacrifice status or compensation as they grow. So an SME can be as valuable to the organization as a leader. Typically, more traditional structure of your growth is in leadership, as some SME’s sacrificing, in a way, their passions, so they can grow in status and compensation to become leaders.

Ralph Simone: This is fascinating to me. I think I’ve shared this story with you before, Bill. I was doing a leadership development presentation for one of the larger regional law firms in our area. And a guy that I’ve known for years said, I went to law school to practice law, not to practice leadership. And I thought that was kind of interesting. So what’s the sweet spot for him? Because I think he did have, there was a need in his firm for him to practice leadership, but there was also a need for him to practice his craft of law. And I think, how do we find that balance? I mean, what guidance would we give to our listeners around finding that balance?

Bill Berthel: Yeah, I think it is that sense of balance or the image that comes up in my mind are, like dials, right? I’ve got these two dials of leadership and individual contributor or technical contributor or, you know, whatever it is. My craft is in this case an attorney. Or if you’re an engineer and you’re leading engineers, you probably are still doing some engineering work. If you’re a programmer, whatever your craft is, right. Whatever that work is you’ve got two dials. And I think it’s about agility. I think it’s about agility to go back and forth and how we use those two dials. It’s not setting those two dials locked to say, I’m going to be 80 20. I’m, 80% a leader, 20%. There will be days or tasks or time where you’re going to ramp up your subject matter expertise and be an individual contributor. And there are going to be times where it might be more on the leadership dial, but I think it’s about dialing that in for the work that matters most that’s in front of us. That may not mean our preference. Right.

Bill Berthel: Like, I love it.

Bill Berthel: The attorney was able to share, went to school to be an attorney. That might be his preference. Right. But what’s needed for the results of my team and the organization to reach those goals and objectives?

Ralph Simone: And, ah, when we had the conversation, I said, often you’re contributing your law expertise, but often you’re also coaching people.

Bill Berthel: Beautiful.

Ralph Simone: On how to practice law. I think where people get hung up is looking at one or the other as opposed to both our important activities and to bring that level of agility to what needs to be done in the moment. I think it’s really important.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, I think so. I think it is about that leadership, agility.

I think it’s also about if, this is resonating with you as a listener, you have an opportunity perhaps to start experimenting with this kind of change in your organization. I think there’s perhaps some cultural shifts or some mindset. We called it a mindset shift earlier. And how you start having this conversation with more people in your organization, with your team. So the workforce may be thinking a certain way. Also, with the structure in your organization, where might the opportunities be to experiment with some different lines of growth and development in your organization?

Ralph Simone: One of the things that comes up with some of our clients is that somebody who is not a subject matter expert for whatever the organization does could not be a senior level leader. What advice would we give or what questions would we ask them in those regards?

Bill Berthel: So I think in some cases that might be true. I think for perhaps some highly specialized roles in that senior leadership. If your subject matter expertise is truly, truly so important to that leadership role, again, probably highly specialized, highly technical, I think that leader must be a continual, lifelong learner, not to try to keep up with the complete pace, but to continually challenging the half life of their higher education. Got it right, and I think they can be in that role. But more generally speaking, I think we need to challenge that mindset that they can’t be a senior leadership. I know personally, I grew up that way. I did not go to school for the technical stuff that I was leading. Later, I went to school for my human resources, higher level leadership, but I was leading quality management groups and research and development groups at high levels without that education. So it’s, I know it’s personally possible. So I would say challenge that in the structure of the organization.

Ralph Simone: I’d be curious what Geoff thinks about this, but I think not knowing too much or not being too much a subject matter expert helps you be a better coach, helps you actually draw the answers out of people because you don’t lead the witness. You’re curious about what they can do.

Geoff Storm: I think that’s true. In my experience, one thing that I found was, the way I see my role is not to do the actual work of those people on my team, but to provide feedback on the work they’ve done, which I always felt that I was qualified to do. Right. But I always had that little bit of vulnerability about my skill set or my technical ability. Anyway, what I found was by being vulnerable, by channeling myself into that specific role, I found that my team was pretty receptive to it, and they were actually ended up teaching me. I’ve learned things from them that I don’t think either one of us intended. At the beginning, it was sort of like accidental, or you were just organic learning through the process, which has been really valuable.

Ralph Simone: Geoff very nice. Well, it’s that co mentoring almost. And, I think the vulnerability is the key to a lot of things, to leadership effectiveness, to ongoing learning and development. Knowing that we don’t we can’t possibly know everything about anything.

Geoff Storm: No, you can’t. You can’t. And, you know, so, again, you know, and the other big part of my role, I think, is just. I think one of the biggest things I can do is not only providing feedback and also, you know, my team giving me feedback, which is important as well. It’s that, like you said, Ralph, it’s that sort of dual mentoring. But being in a position to help them, accomplish their tasks and their goals, whether it’s managing deadlines, whether it’s giving them encouragement when they don’t feel they’re quite getting it right, maybe giving them suggestions about how they might approach. So it’s that kind of thing. And, I mean, that’s leadership.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. Perfect.

Bill Berthel: Geoff thank you so much for including your point of view and your voice in this episode. Truly a gift. Thank you, Geoff

Bill Berthel: My pleasure. And thank you so much for the opportunity.

Bill Berthel: absolutely, Ralph. Thank you.

Ralph Simone: Well, I love this because I’m going to ask more and more people to do things that I wouldn’t do. It’s just giving me permission.

Bill Berthel: Permission to carry on. Right. Absolutely. Awesome. Thanks, Ralph, and thanks for listening. You can listen to a new podcast two times every month here at Get Emergent or wherever you listen to your podcasts. This is where we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas balanced with what we hope you find are better practices that you can apply directly to your work and your leadership. Thanks.

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There really are patterns in life. Effective leaders can recognize those patterns and use them to optimize the performance of their teams. Listen as Bill and Ralph give examples of patterns you can exploit to enhance your leadership – and how to do it.

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Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone. And Bill, I’m fascinated with this topic today because I have no idea what it means.

Bill Berthel: Ah, you do. You do.

Bill Berthel: Once we get into the conversation, you’re gonna.

So the title of you’re not paranoid, there are patterns, right? It’s really about looking for and looking at the patterns. The reference to paranoia, right? Paranoia is defined as an ability or a sensing of patterns and sequences. Typically, the paranoid think those patterns are out to get them, right. It’s a negative thing, but we’re going to flip that. There really are patterns in our life, in the world. The way things are structured and really effective. Leaders can read those patterns and utilize them in their leadership to optimize the results of their teams and their organizations. That’s what we’re talking about today.

Bill Berthel: I love it.

Ralph Simone: I’d actually like rather look at that paranoia as an intuition, so much.

Bill Berthel: Is that right? It’s this beautiful ability to tap into that, right? We can take cues from the patterns and the models that are around us when we start to see that, whatever you believe in, intelligent design, divine creation, nature’s blueprint, right? These are all possible sources. Wherever these patterns come from, they’re abundantly around us. They’re very real. They’re very real.

What kind of patterns would leaders be looking for or uncovering in their organizationsRalph Simone: Preston, I’m curious, what kind of patterns would leaders be looking for or should they be looking for or uncovering in their organizations?

Bill Berthel: I can think of three specific to leadership and really talk about those kind of meta, patterns or models, if you will. But we’ll give some specific examples. But just think about the simplicity of most people on this planet live somewhere where there’s a change of seasons, right? We experience that pattern, right? Especially here in the northeast of the United States. We have four pretty distinct seasons. I guess our winters are getting more mild and our summers might be getting hotter and drier, but still pretty distinct seasons. Summer always follows spring, winter always follows autumn. While not completely forecastable, we can understand whether patterns each season will bring. So a really simple model of patterns most of us could relate to. We can look at just about any leadership model that’s been published for patterns. So the Harvard business School is notorious for their two by two models, right? Almost every theory Harvard provides follows, that specific pattern right. Plotted on a quadrant and x y axes gives us four different dynamics to think about in leadership. I think about Ken Blanchard, situational leadership model. You’ve got the directive compared to or with supportive behavior.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: So now we have this kind of four areas to be thinking about.

Ralph Simone: The Eisenhower matrix around time management.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Ralph Simone: Urgent and important, two by two. Right. Interesting.

Bill Berthel: Great example.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: A, more recent one. I love Adam Grant’s work in think again. His four thinking styles. The preacher, the prosecutor, the politician, and the scientist. Whether you’re seeking truth or whether you’re winning, whether it’s belief-based, it’s a four-sectioned quadrant pattern. I think we can see that that’s not too different than seasons.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: There’s four elements there. I think we can see seasons in our team. I think we can see seasonality sometimes in our markets.

Ralph Simone: So answer the question I was going to ask as a leader, what patterns can we look for so that we can scale our organizations and perform at higher levels?

Bill Berthel: Most leaders are already probably dividing their year into quarters. They’re probably following some type of either formal or informal strategic plan with goals in each of those quarters that make some sense to their team’s capacity and the needs of their market or their client. Like, that’s a pretty standard pattern that happens in the majority of organizations we work with. Got it?

Bill Berthel: I think another pretty commonly known pattern or model are the Venn diagrams. We see lots of leadership models as Venn diagrams. The beauty here is typically three or four overlapping circles that share some sort of commonality in the middle. So, different way of looking at a relationship, not so much like an x y axis, where we’re looking at perhaps opposites or complements so much. We’re usually looking at three or four, sometimes two, but usually more than that. Three or four variables are elements that make sense to a, common ground where they’re overlapping in the middle. One of the oldest is the Japanese model of Ikigai. I think a lot of people know that from a purpose, or meaning. A lot of leaders use this space. There’s four areas that overlap to guide you more clearly to your purpose. You can use this for your life purpose, your leadership purpose. Those areas are what you love, what you’re good at, what the world needs, and what you’re paid for. And they come together to the central place of more clarity on your life and leadership’s purpose and meaning.

Ralph Simone: It’s a pattern, what I’m hearing, and I don’t know if this was the intent, but these patterns help us include more things. They don’t make something right or wrong, but they start to show the variation in the patterns that repeat and then how to take advantage of some things to optimize your organization.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely it, right? And I think these patterns can help provide a background or a blueprint to some of our experiments as leadership. Can we dial into that pattern? Can we dial into the seasonality? Can we dial into those variables better? I think it’s a way of creating more focus. And we were just talking about focus on a previous podcast, and it’s a way that we can start to get our hands around multiple variables for the purpose of focus.

There’s another pattern or another model we see a lot of in the leadership space, and that’s a stacked triangle. A lot of authors love a stacked triangle, right. Because like think of the shape, right. A triangle is, I think, physically one of the strongest shapes. So there’s there, but the base is bigger than the top, which automatically makes us think that the base is like foundational or anchoring or first perhaps, we’re going to build something. Start at the bottom, right. So we think about Patrick Lencioni’s five dysfunctions of a team, right. With trust being that base layer. What Covey said, a, trust is the glue that holds all relationships together. It’s foundational. If we’re going to build a team, we must start with trust before we can go up the triangle and start working in conflict more effectively together. Ultimately to get to attention of results at the top of the triangle. We like triangles again because they’re strong and they give an order or a sequence. It could help us focus on what’s first m, what comes before something else. So we can really get focused that way as well.

Ralph Simone: It seems like it could also be a pointer to where we can go or return to if we’re having trouble at the next level of that stack pattern.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely.

Ralph Simone: Gives us a roadmap almost of, what to look towards or what to adjust.

Bill Berthel: It is, and I think at the end of the day, it’s netting this out. It’s really about application and utilization of these patterns that separate highly effective leaders from others. It’s one thing to see it. What are you going to do with it? How are you going to apply this into your leadership? Noticing what season or level you or someone you’re leading is at is great, but then what do you do with it? How do you apply that? Leverage it for the best outcome?

Bill Berthel: Trey.

Ralph Simone: So that supports one of our podcasts on. So what now? What absolutely I also think it’s the fundamental premise of another model, which is the emotional intelligence model. This idea, that’s a two by two by two. We have awareness and we have action. It’s not enough to be aware of what’s working and what’s not working unless we take some action on it, or it’s not enough to recognize what’s going on in relationship unless we also add some action to it. So it reminds me, and I don’t know if this came from a consultant I worked with where he said that all models are flawed, but many are useful. And I think we’re pointing people to the models, help understand the patterns, which help us to take action. But we could probably, if we looked hard enough, we could find some flaw in any model or any pattern that unfolds. we will, we will.

Bill Berthel: No pattern, no model is going to be perfectly indicative of everything we need. But there’s, like, tools. I’m a little bit of a tool fanatic. I love tools like physical tools, woodworking tools, and so forth. The more specialized a tool is usually, the better it is at that specific task.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: Multi-tools tend to be a compromise.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: And so when we look at models that are highly specific and they give us some direction and how to apply, that’s usually more useful. But it’s really about that. You know, we want to be able to have this kind of analytical review of a model and a pattern, but ultimately taking a, strategic pause and reflecting on my experimentation, how did it go using that model or that tool, not just where the flaws, but what worked well and how will I continue to leverage that into continued growth and development for myself, my team, the organization? And I think we sometimes just miss that strategic pause to review the application and use of the information and the experiment we ran.

Ralph Simone: It strikes me that companies that are publicly traded and feel the pressure of quarterly performance may not be able to follow the seasonality m of, trends that occur naturally in some of these patterns. I’m wondering if you had some thoughts on that.

Bill Berthel: That’s interesting. There might be some patterns in other variables or other pressures that, or demands or needs that create those.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: I think when we. This goes back to the title of paranoia. when we look for the patterns, we will find them. They are very real. It’s not that they’re out to get us, it’s how will we utilize them towards the objectives that we’re after in our organizations. Bet there’s some keys to those patterns as well.

Ralph Simone: So, on the positive side, I think some of the pressure on performance, particularly from the market, can create a sense of urgency and also create a sense of importance and focus.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely.

Ralph Simone: Which then gets the organization perhaps letting go of the noise that will get in the way of performance. So that’s kind of an interesting way to reframe that.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. Our listeners might be thinking, you know, here’s Bill and Ralph again, kind of giving away the keys to the very work that they sell. Our mission is to raise the consciousness of individuals, leaders, and teams and the people they serve. This content, all of this is out there already, right? This isn’t giving away anything. It’s actually asking our listeners to kind of key in to pay attention some more awareness of their environment and what’s going on and what those patterns might be telling them. You know, our clients work with us as trusted advisors, as trainers and coaches because of what we do with this information. But this information is widely available. How will you use it? How will you use it? Is kind of the end of the.

Ralph Simone: Day question that, seems like an element of organizational awareness in really paying attention to the organizational patterns that are moving us closer to our vision, our goals, our results, and which ones are getting in the way, and then adjusting the systems, adjusting the structure, perhaps even adjusting the culture based on the patterns of information that we are interpreting.

Bill Berthel: Love it.

Bill Berthel: Ralph, thank you. Thanks, Bill, and thanks for listening. You can listen to a new podcast two times every month here at Get Emergent or wherever you listen to your podcasts. This is where we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas balanced with what we hope you find are better practices that you can apply directly to your work and your leadership.

Ralph Simone: Thanks.

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In the context of today’s episode, AI means more than artificial intelligence. It means Applied Impact. Listen as Ralph and Bill demystify artificial intelligence and discuss ways to harness technology to drive productivity and make a positive impact on your leadership and within your organization.

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Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel: So, Ralph, we’re going to talk about AI today. That’s a pretty hot topic.

Ralph Simone: Yes, it is. And, you know, I was a front-runner on AI. I have to tell you this. You, in m my old consulting days, I remember this is 1520, maybe 30 years ago, I was talking to my wife about AI, and she goes, what’s that stand for? I said, artificial intelligence. She goes, well, you ought to be pretty good at it because you got what I would describe as artificial intelligence and spades, my friend. So I was always interested in it.

Bill Berthel: But today, we are going to talk.

Ralph Simone: A little bit about artificial intelligence, but I’m looking at it from a little bit different angle, and this may help demystify AI, but applied impact. So when we think about AI and coaching, our, work with leaders, we’re thinking about the applied impact. I think the same thing holds true with artificial intelligence. I think are so nervous, and some of that nervous, probably rightfully so, because there’s a trend that over the next, right? In seven or eight years, millions of jobs will be changing or potentially eliminated.

Bill Berthel: Right, right.

Ralph Simone: But I think that there will be other jobs that will be created, and there will be other opportunities, and I think there will be other opportunities to really get the applied impact out of all this AI buzz. That’s what I’m kind of excited about.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are centuries of changes in technology, right. Something usually, you know, is the predecessor to the technology we have now. And there’s often some legitimate resistance to that change. Right. There might be some fear of the way in which I do something is going to go away, or I think in this case, it’s really close to the human element possibly being compromised or taken away from some work.

Ralph Simone: Trey, it was interesting. I hadn’t thought about this, but as you know, and I’m very excited about this year, hopefully have a book coming out slow down to go faster. Yeah, yeah. And the applied impact of utilizing AI in the process. And this is a story that I know you’ve heard before, but I’m probably a better speaker than writer. I, tend to be clearer, perhaps tighter in my spoken word than in my written word. And I remember I’ve been working on this book for a number of years, and a breakthrough came from my son coaching me. He saw me grinding out. I would dedicate 90 minutes, four days a week to work on this because I read somewhere that, you know, if you’re going to write a book, you have to spend time writing every day. And he was looking at me for a while, and he observed, he said, Dad, you look miserable.

Bill Berthel: You were, like, typing away.

Ralph Simone: I was actually handwriting.

Bill Berthel: Handwriting, yeah.

Ralph Simone: So this is really an archaic process. And so he asked if he could take a look at the output. And, you know, my son, he’s kind, but he said, dad, this doesn’t really reflect your thinking around this topic. And he said, I’ve heard you speak about it with passion. You’ve been inspiring, but the words on the page aren’t lighting me up. He goes, would you mind an idea? So this became really the genesis of getting the book done for submittal. He said, why don’t you dictate it and then send it to one of these transcription services? This is the applied impact of AI for me. So it went from something that really sucked, if I can say that word, sure. To something that I am absolutely proud. We’ve submitted to ten different publishing houses, but it was utilizing AI to get me off the dime, and it was actually using it to get something done. So applied impact in this conversation, love it.

Bill Berthel: Because there’s AI likely embedded in that transcription process that helped your process, helped you get to the level of completion for submitting the book.

Ralph Simone: Yeah, we got the first draft, which certainly needed work, and it needed massaging, and it needed some human eyes, but it got me off the dime.

Bill Berthel: Awesome. Awesome.

Ralph Simone: And I often think about another thing he gave me feedback on. Seems like he gives me feedback a lot. I love of to read now, and I think I’m making up for all of the books I didn’t read when I was in high school and college. So he’s heard me say that I read three books a week, and he said that no one cares how many books a week you read, but what they do care about is the reason. I know you read. You read for application, not completion. the other thing about gaining this knowledge and this wisdom is not to complete something or not to line up all the books but is to time have some applied impact. What is something that I can apply from what I read that will drive my productivity, my effectiveness, and how can I share that so that the clients and the organizations we work with can have a similar applied impact? Trey.

Bill Berthel: So I love the reframe of AI to applied impact. It’s benefiting me in the way that it’s reducing the focus on fear of artificial intelligence in the way that here’s another tool that could be useful to me. And if I’m resisting that tool, what does that mean to my value and my work? If I embrace it, what does it mean? I’m sure we all will have different answers in that space, but it really opens up the door for me to look at it in a different light, different perspective.

Ralph Simone: I think a lot of the fear, and I’m not an expert on this topic, comes from this idea that we’re looking at it as either or.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, right, both.

Ralph Simone: And that we often talk about how could we use it to enhance what we already do? How could we use it to let go of some of the routine and ah, monotonous things that prevent us from thinking very creatively. And I think you’re onto something, let’s demystify it, because we want to use AI just like we use anything else for applied impact in the work that we do, for the people that we serve.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so some of its validated fear, right? This will change the workforce, it will change the way in which we work. Some of it might be unnecessary worry and concern. I get that.

So I’m in the market for a new mountain bike. I haven’t bought a mountain bike in 30 plus years. The technology has changed drastically. And so my previous mountain bike is what’s called a hardtail. There’s no suspension in the back, right. And so all the new bikes are, you know, really plush suspension and they even have electronic shifters now on them. You can get an e-bike, right, that assists your pedaling. And it’s interesting to talk to the experts in this field that, you know, some are like, well, why would you want to go to all that technology? It’s like that you’re not really mountain biking anymore, right, where others are. Like, if it gets you on the bike more, gets you more active, what’s your goal? To be healthier? Yeah, absolutely. Then why wouldn’t you leverage this technology? Because it’ll have you more comfortable and enjoying it more. I’m even seeing my resistance to change in a simple application of a, tool or a toy like that. I think it’s really normal for us, but as soon as someone else can open, give you permission to think about it a little differently. I find that really helpful.

Ralph Simone: Well, so I think when we can shift the focus to wanna, of application and practice in how the tool could be useful for us and to be open to experimenting and learning and run an experiment long enough to tell if it works or if it doesn’t work. But all of this is really focused from my perspective of AI and our coaching and leadership development, applied impact, any tool that comes down the road, let’s get away from the theory and let’s really talk about how we can apply that to make our jobs more effective, more scalable, more impactful.

So artificial intelligence could potentially coach people. For me, that’s excitingBill Berthel: So, Rolf, let me ask you a question that would hit home for us. So artificial intelligence could potentially coach people.

Ralph Simone: no question about it.

Bill Berthel: I think it would challenge the very essence of what we do.

Ralph Simone: Bill, you know this, 15 years ago, we attempted to stand up a company, and I’d like to say we were ahead of our time. And it was called the 24 hourcoach.com dot, right? This was the precursor to using AI. And when we were working with the programmers on this, the guy says, so what would be a, walk me through a coaching conversation. And, you know, the first thing is, what do you want to have as an outcome of this conversation? Or what challenges are you currently up against that you would like to use me as a sounding board?

Bill Berthel: Right.

Ralph Simone: Then the second question was, what have you experimented with? And the third question was, what else would you be open to consider doing? And then the fourth question was, what commitment will you make to address the situation that became what we called the secret sauce. That’s the thinking behind, right? So we actually had this, we never executed it completely, because I’m not sure, you know, probably because we didn’t know enough, but I think that’s fine because I think that reaches more people. It, raises the consciousness and performance of more people. There will still be people that will need to program that. There will still be the thought leaders that will need to come up with the questions that would be asked. But I actually think that that helps raise all boats that makes something like we do accessible to more people. Yes. For me, that’s exciting. That’s exciting. There will still be people that will want to talk with us in person, but I think it creates more of an opportunity for people to get unstuck and to get into action in their life. So I actually welcome it. And I think, you know, I really feel good about the 24 hourcoach.com dot. I think we were way ahead of our time in that thought process.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. So what I’m observing is stepping into this with an abundance mentality compared to the scarcity.

Ralph Simone: I think so. Because, energetically, it will allow us to harness whatever new technology comes up and use it in a way to make the impact that we are intending to make in the world, in our communities, in our organizations, with our families, and with ourselves.

Bill Berthel: Ralph thank you. Thanks, Bill, and thanks for listening. You can listen to a new podcast two times every month here at Get Emergent or wherever you listen to your podcasts. This is where we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas balanced with what we hope you find are better practices that you can apply directly to your work and your leadership. Thanks.

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Today’s advice: limit the essential elements of your leadership to a vital few. Listen as Ralph and Bill discuss the critical importance of focus, and learn how you can sharpen your focus to optimize your leadership, and ultimately energize your team or organization.

Prefer to read the transcript?

Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. This is the space where we discuss leadership, team and organizational topics and better practices. We like to provide concepts and ideas that you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop your higher potential in your work and your leadership. I’m
Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel: So, Ralph, we’re talking about the topic of focus.

Ralph Simone: I love this topic.

Bill Berthel: You do?

Bill Berthel Simone: Oh, yeah. This is what I call one of my natural gifts, one of my unique strengths, the ability to focus.

Bill Berthel: Well, I’m ready to learn a lot from you because I see it as a, pretty significant gap for myself. So I’m excited about this one.

Ralph Simone: I think the gap exists for all of us, including me. But I want to start with a story because I think this story, coming from a client experience, puts this in perspective. The challenge that we have. I was doing a meeting between a manager and a leader who we are coaching. And they had three goals for the coaching process. One was to improve their ability to hold others accountable.

Bill Berthel: Okay.

Ralph Simone: The second was to get their arms around the 10,000 things that they have to do. Now, I’m sure it was hyperbolic. However, I very quickly pointed out if they saw the relationship between the inability to hold people accountable and, the 10,000 things they have to do.

Bill Berthel: Oh, interesting. Probably a correlation between accountability and the number of things we have to do and the capacity we have to do them in.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. So which things do I focus on? What do I follow up on? What is okay to let go of? And I think organizations are constantly, they have so many things, and this is where focus comes in. And I play around with this. I love to play around with variations of. I think this is a variation of either an Emerson or a Thoreau quote. But focus, focus, focus. Make the essential elements of your life and your leadership number a vital few. We think we have this infinite capacity that we can do more. The more automated things become, the more things we think we can do. And I think it’s causing us to lose that discipline of really focusing on those essential items.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, I think you’re right. I think we’re well intended. Right. We have a lot of interest. We want to get a lot of things done. We see a lot of opportunities. But even with that good intention, we’re overwhelming the capacity of our resources. And so focus is a way to get it back to what you call it, the vital few.

Ralph Simone: The vital few. I like to get Paredo in the mix.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Ralph Simone: Wilfredo Paredo, the Italian economist who studied the unequal distribution of wealth, 20% of our tasks yield 80% of our results, 20% of our customers. And we seem to intellectually know that. I hear people talking about it all the time, and yet we’re trying to do everything. And I remember some of my Covey training. He said, if we see everything as important, we try to do everything. And what do we get? We get overwhelmed.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: burnout. We get mediocre work.

Bill Berthel: Right. Mediocre results.

Ralph Simone: And I think part of thinking big and thinking boldly is taking a stand and really being crystal clear and focusing on what you want. we do visualization, we’ll do vision statements, we’ll do values, but just qualities that you want to focus on to externalize in your life. What are those? Because we know from quantum physics, from the law of intention, that what we focus on tends to manifest.

Bill Berthel: Right? Right.

Ralph Simone: But if we focus on too many things, what manifests is a lot of incomplete things. And, we really need to, I think, take a stronger stand and be clear around what those vital few items are for us in our organizations, on our teams and in our own lives as leaders.

Bill Berthel: How do we do that, Ralph? How do we do that? With the, I sense many of us feel a continued pressure to do more, maybe even do more with less. A desire to achieve a lot. Right. How do we get this into focus?

Ralph Simone: Yeah, I think it starts with choice and taking personal responsibility. That if it’s going to change, you need to change it for yourself. I think that’s one thing. I think it gets at some of the mental energy. When we look at the sources of energy, mental energy is really described as the focus of energy.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Ralph Simone: And it facilitates our ability to concentrate and stay present. But I think this is less is more. I think this requires a, dedication to planning process. I think this involves fertile boundaries, part of our success, planning process, filtering out things that no longer serve you. We can’t be on this additive cycle. One of the challenges I find working with high achievers is that you give them a good idea of something to do. They add it on top of what they already are doing. And I think being able to take some things out so that the number of items you’re focused on is a manageable, vital few. I think people really overstate what they can do in the short term. And they actually end up burning themselves out or getting very frustrated and overwhelmed because of the lack of focus.

Bill Berthel: I love it, taking a cue from the stoics, the idea of a yes list instead of what we focus on saying no to. Because this resonates with me. I don’t love to say no. I feel like I’m letting somebody down. But if we can create the three to five essential criteria for what makes it to our yes list, we get to focus on what we say yes to. Anything else is a no or not yet yes. Which means it’s not for me or it’s not for m my team, right. Where I might be able to find someone else for that. I might be able to delegate it off. I might be able to say, you know what? It’s not for me. But, hey, I’ve got this other person over here who would love that on their yes list. So we can focus on what we say yes to. But the critical or the vital? The essential criteria for that list needs to be a vital few. Three to five.

Ralph Simone: Love that example. Because the vital yes list is focusing on what you want.

Bill Berthel: Exactly.

Ralph Simone: It’s that burning yes deeper inside of you. It requires clarity.

Bill Berthel: Yes.

Ralph Simone: It requires reflection. It requires courageous authenticity.

Bill Berthel: It really does.

Ralph Simone: To say no with a smile. and I think that oftentimes it could be the fear of missing out, to be able to at least create a vision for yourself and to identify some values by which you will create your yes list and really feel good about those choices. I think we’re always at choice point, but I think people feel they’re being chosen for. And I think this ability to focus requires some reflection time. It requires creating that yes list. And then you’ve got to have a process by which to filter things in and out of. But equally important, the courage to say no to things that don’t line up with your list. I think that’s critically important.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. I think the more I’ll speak for myself, the more I practice this, the more it becomes analogous to auto focus on my camera, right, where I don’t have to grab for the ring and refocus every time. The more I practice this, the more it’s like auto focus, where it’s like, oh, that doesn’t fit in the picture. Oh, that’s still blurry. My essential vital few. I, love you. Called it vital few. Helps me see what’s out of focus more quickly.

Ralph Simone: And I think this ties to some of the other podcasts we’ve done where even our paradigm around what leadership is. Leadership is not about doing everything. Leadership is about getting clarity around a vision. It’s helping people understand those things that matter most. And it’s creating systems and processes that allow us to stay focused on those things. I mean, I love it. Sometimes we’ll get opportunities, and we have the same challenge of staying focused because it’s interesting, and I always love a new client. Oh, this could turn into something big. Yeah. Everything could turn into something big, but it also could turn into a distraction. And so I think it’s having that yes list. I think it’s having that criteria, but it’s having the courage to say no. Having the courage to say no to things that don’t make that list. And sometimes it’s not any more complicated than that.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. The courage to say no. I think not yet. Right. That’s a softer no that we have to look at our capacity as the timing. Right. Of this request or of this opportunity. Maybe it’s right later. Right. But it’s, a no or not yet in that space.
You mentioned something that really interests me, and I’d love it if you could expand on that concern of maybe feeling left out. How does that come into play with this topic of focus?

Ralph Simone: I think we are so inundated with social media, with information, with data, that I think that we have this societal feeling that the fear of missing out. And I think for me, I’ve experimented with this idea of the joy of missing out. So the joy of missing out, is that I get to focus on these things that I self-selected, that are important to me, that are energizing to me, and I take great joy in not pursuing that. And so I think it’s a mindset, I think it’s a paradigm shift, but I’ve replaced, or I’m replacing because I haven’t replaced it, the fear, of missing out with the joy of missing out. And the other thing I think about this is when we can know, not yet, we can delegate, we can put something away for, we can offload it. We can get it done a different way. We can innovate. We can automate.

Bill Berthel: Sure.

Ralph Simone: So it actually, I think the focus actually feeds innovation. Focus gets us to be more creative with how we utilize the resources on our team or in our organization. And I, also think the focus demonstrates to people what’s possible. I think this is something that we need to do more of. I think that organizations are too splintered. I think people are wasting a lot of energy, working on things that are not part of the vital few.

Bill Berthel: Ralph, thanks. I learned a lot today.

Ralph Simone: I had fun.

Bill Berthel: So thank you, Bill, and thanks for listening. You can listen to a new podcast two times every month here at get emergent or wherever you listen to your podcasts. This is where we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas, balanced with what we hope you find are better practices you can apply directly to your work and your leadership. Thank you.

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We often make critical decisions and changes before doing the introspective work necessary to identify what really matters most to us. Being more intentional about identifying what’s most important to us in our lives and careers is the first step in creating a roadmap to get there. Listen and learn more.

Prefer to read the transcript?

Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast where we discuss leadership Team and organizational topics and better practices. We like to provide concepts and ideas that you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop your higher potential in your work and leadership. I’m Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone: And I’m Rolf Simone.

Bill Berthel: Rolf, this topic today I’m really intrigued to learn more mapping what matters most. As our title, what does that entail? What does that mean? Mapping what matters most?

Ralph Simone: Well, first of all, it implies that we’ve done the introspective work to identify what really matters most to us in our careers, in our lives. And then we create the map, or the plan, or the roadmap, if you will, to get there. And I think too often people are in action, they’re on the road before they even know where they want to go.

Ralph Simone: Right?

Ralph Simone: it happens at different ages and stages, but this idea of being more intentional, not only about what you want to do, but who you want to do it with. And I think sometimes people would benefit before they even make a career choice to think about the type of lifestyle they want to have.

Bill Berthel: Interesting.

Ralph Simone: What matters most then begins to drive the plans and the activities and the actions along the way.

Bill Berthel: So, this really starts with identifying what matters most before we go in action with a plan or a map. The map is a plan in a way, but first it’s really identifying what matters most.

Ralph Simone: Begin with the end in mind, where do you intend to end up? And then begin to create the plan to get there. We talk in a lot of other podcasts about why.

Ralph Simone: So why precedes what and how and why I want to do this. Is it something that really lights me up? Is it my calling? Is it my purpose? And so, we spend a fair amount of time in mapping what matters most. Identifying what matters most through having people reflect on their purpose, activities and things that provide meaning to them. The m things that they value. We’ve talked about in other podcasts, you value what you do, you do what you value. But really giving some thought to what are those five to seven self-chosen, self-selected values that you will use to guide your behavior along the way? Some intentions. What are your intentions for what matters most? And then ultimately creating some weekly plans to get there. Ah, I think it starts with a couple of key questions. I like to ask people to identify essential relationships and activities. So sometimes people get a little hung up on what their purpose is. We can certainly take people through the creation of a mission statement and values, but just simply sitting back and identifying essential relationships and activities that Manor most. Because those things will inform what’s most important to you.

Bill Berthel: I love this. I was just, coaching a young engineer the other day. And this is where he was starting. He was talking about the relationships that are most important in his life and the things he and they like to do together. Most. Really insightful young man.

Ralph Simone: So, he’s in the process of co-creating.

Ralph Simone: Right.

Ralph Simone: He’s engaging those essential relationships in kind of co-creating the plan to what matters most. I think the other thing it involves is establishing some fertile m mean, we can’t be all things to, all people. We can’t do everything. I remember Cubby in an early training I had with him. He said, if you see everything as important, you try to do everything, and what do you get? Either nothing or burned out or overloaded. And so this idea of really being intentional in making discernible choices around the things that are most important to you. Which also includes learning to say no to some things.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

back to fertile boundary. What’s a fertile boundary? I’ve always heard of healthy boundaries. What’s a fertile boundary?

Ralph Simone: Well, I read this somewhere, and then I think I put my own definition to it.

Ralph Simone: Good.

Bill Berthel: You made it better.

Ralph Simone: Well, we’ll see. But it’s a boundary. When we have fertile soil, things tend to grow. And so if I have a fertile boundary around relationships, those relationships will grow and flourish because it’s a fertile boundary. And I guess healthy boundary could also, be used. But I like fertile because growth takes place.

Bill Berthel: Oh, I like that. Right.

Ralph Simone: For both individuals and the party. And I think it goes back to. Because I’m not just arbitrarily saying no. I’m telling you why I have this boundary and how it serves us in relationship. And I think that’s the fertile nature of it.

Bill Berthel: Love it.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. So those three things are important. And I’ve noticed we’ll do a lot of training or conversations with people and some of their frustrations overwhelmed. I have too much to do. I’m working all the time. I don’t have good work life balance. And if you step back, if you slow down to go faster, well, what matters most to you? And what is the end game and what is your mission? Well, I don’t have one. All right, well, let’s slow down to go. Let’s spend some time building that mission statement. And then let’s build that into some high-leverage goals and some values. Because these are the things that I think actually breathe life. You’ll never be able to do what matters most. If you’re not clear on what matters most to you and your key stakeholder.

Bill Berthel: Group, I love it. This is the intention-setting portion, really getting clear on what matters most. You then started going into some intentional goal setting. What’s next? What happens in this process next?

Ralph Simone: Well, then it’s like taking a trip. Now, you just go, online, but you remember where trip ticks used to have aa. You start to map out the route that will get you to what matters most. Not necessarily the quickest, but in the most fulfilled way, in the most energetic way, in the most balanced and integrated way. And we like to refer to that as Emergent is that’s your weekly or success planning. Now that I know what matters most, and I know what my values are, let me make and keep commitments with myself over the next seven days to take steps that are aligned with my mission that will activate what matters most along the way.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, so you shared. It might not be the most efficient or the quickest route. it makes me think sometimes it’s the intention of taking the scenic route, like being present with that and living it day to day.

Ralph Simone: Yeah, absolutely. Being present with it and taking care of yourself along the way. I think part of the challenge that a lot of people have around, they don’t have the energy to work on what matters most. And because I think they’re dealing with a flawed paradigm around time management versus energy management. And so in this equation of mapping what matters most, you better put yourself at the top of the list of what matters most. And this idea of healthy selfishness, where we are paying attention to the four key sources of energy, and we are renewing these four daily in an integrated and holistic way. We’re paying attention to our spiritual development, which is the force of energy. We are investing energy throughout the day on things that are purposeful and meaningful to us.

Ralph Simone: Right.

Ralph Simone: we are taking care of our physical plant and equipment. We’re moving, we’re 10,000 steps. We’re stretching, we’re breathing. This is where I really, like LSD. Long, slow, and deep breaths. I don’t want anybody to think anything other of me. We’re working our aerobic activity to get our cardio, so we’re taking care of our physical plant and equipment so that we have the energy to continue on this journey. On what matters most. We’re challenging ourselves mentally through puzzles every day. I do wordle. In fact, I forgot to tell my wife I got it in two yesterday.

Bill Berthel: Oh, wow.

Ralph Simone: We’re doing wordle. We’re doing connections. We’re doing Sudoku, we’re doing crossword puzzles, we’re doing karate.

Ralph Simone: Right.

Ralph Simone: We’re challenging our mind in ways so that it never returns.

Ralph Simone: Right.

Ralph Simone: So that we can have high levels of concentration and focus. And then I’m surprised even at myself, at this. We are making the social and emotional connections, the quality of energy. Who are the people that actually make us feel better when we are in their presence? And are we investing enough energy in reaching out to them on a regular basis? One of a tip to our readers, and this tip, I don’t think, has changed much over the years. You should be spending at least an hour a day in the renewal of these areas, not an hour in each, because that will give us the energy to stay the course, to have the focus, to have the concentration and the persistence to achieve what matters most.

Bill Berthel: So I love it. You said, what should be near the top of your list, or maybe you said, at the top is what matters most is yourself. And I didn’t naturally go there. Thanks for that permission. Right. Because it is all about that. Not just self-care, but self-investment of, investing in our own energy.

Ralph Simone: I don’t think most people go there, and I actually think fewer women go there.

Ralph Simone: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: Probably because of their nature. Many as mothers, they’re natural, bound to be selfless. And I think everybody’s overused this example. But when you’re on an airplane with a young child, right, and there’s a loss of oxygen, what do they tell you to do? So, everybody intellectualizes this, but what’s the process and the support? You need to really put first things first, to put your Health at the top of the list, because we cannot lead people to levels of effectiveness that we’re first not at ourselves and really important.

Bill Berthel: That’s good.

Ralph Simone: So, we map this stuff out, and then we have fewer goals, not too many.

Ralph Simone: Right?

Ralph Simone: We talked about this earlier. Less is more. We get this cognitive overload with too many goals, too many choices. I’m starting to play around with the intention of being more of a minimalist.

Ralph Simone: If I have less things to keep track of, I have more energy and bandwidth to focus on what matters most. And for me, that’s a short list. You also have to have a process. You have to have a process to activate these things. We call it weekly or success planning, but this idea of making and keeping commitments with yourself and your other key stakeholders, and you treat each commitment as if you would treat any of your very important commitments.

Ralph Simone: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: And I think lastly, you got to take some stuff out.

Ralph Simone: Right.

Ralph Simone: We talked about fertile boundaries earlier. We talked about saying no. We like to refer to it as activity filtering. If you’re going to focus on what matters most, there may be some things that you’ll have to filter out. And you can filter activities out of your calendar by delegating, automating, innovating, or eliminating.

Ralph Simone: Right.

Ralph Simone: It’s not just additive. And I think a lot of people, cross themselves up because they have this additive. Oh, I got to just do more. I got to do more exercise on top of all this other stuff I’m doing. I told this story once. I had a guy who I coach, coaching client, who I got into physical activity, got him running and working out, and he ran by my house. We used to live in the same neighborhood, and he yells out, you’re ruining my life. of course, I had to follow up with him, but he said, now I got exercise on top of all these other things. Wrong paradigm. Make that first, integrate it and see how that energy increase helps you deal with these other activities in a more effective way.

Bill Berthel: So, I love that. I’ve been known to have too many hobbies, and what I’ve come to learn is that if I allow the change of the seasons to be a forcing function for my hobbies, I can enjoy more than one interest, but really dive deeper into them in an essential way and have fewer in that time period.

Ralph Simone: Right.

Bill Berthel: So, I don’t necessarily have to give up some things. I’m fortunate to live in a part of the country that has four pretty distinct seasons.

Ralph Simone: Right.

Bill Berthel: But that forcing function, I think there’s a seasonality to this as well.

Ralph Simone: For us, there is great wisdom in less leading to more.

Ralph Simone: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: There is great wisdom in slowing down to go faster. There is great wisdom to radically exclude everything except those things that are essential. Absolutely. And I think having a process and activating that process is critical to, I think, a life of fulfillment and impact. We were joking the other day around we have AI in coaching, and people like you get people to lean in on that. But it’s applied impact. And I think the way that we have implied impact around what matters most is we have a process. We get first clarity on what matters most, and then we build a process to support our energy and activities in those areas.

Bill Berthel: So, what do we do if we start to get off the map a little bit?

Ralph Simone: Right.

Bill Berthel: We create the intentions. We’ve done the mapping work. I think I’m asking this for myself because I think I would occasionally, get off the map. What do I do.

Ralph Simone: Sure, you do. Just like you get occasionally off the route and in a gps system, it would tell you recalculating. So that’s a time to reset and to recalculate. And maybe you want to take a different route. Maybe you’ve changed what matters most. But recalculate that. Be intentional about it. Don’t let it just happen to you.

Bill Berthel: I love it.

Where can people start? Our listeners are listening to this. They’re inspired to do something. What action would you call them to start with?

Ralph Simone: I’ll go back to, two things I shared during the course of this podcast. One is I’d answer the question around what are your essential activities and relationships first? And then I would do a reset on renewal activities in the four sources of energy, spiritual, physical, mental, social, emotional. And I’d make sure I was investing an hour a day total in those four areas. I think that’s where I would start. Then, if you want to get really serious, let’s work on a purpose statement.

Bill Berthel: Nice.

Ralph Simone: Let’s identify five to seven. But I’d start with those two things. Ask and answer essential relationships and activities and recommit to energy renewal and those four sources of energy.

Bill Berthel: I think I would need to write those down. I think I’d want to journal on those two.

Ralph Simone: Yeah, yeah. Spend some time with it.

Ralph Simone: Right.

Ralph Simone: What matters most requires some thought and introspection.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, Rolf, thank you. Thanks, Bill, and thanks for listening. You can listen to a new podcast two times every month here at get Emergent or wherever you listen to your podcasts. This is where we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas balanced with what we hope you find are, better practices that you can apply directly to your work and your leadership.

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There’s an old saying: we judge others by their actions, we judge ourselves by our intentions. For example, we might assume an employee who’s late for work is lazy or unreliable, without considering that there might be a valid, unavoidable reason for their tardiness. Such “attribution errors” are among the most common causes of conflict on teams. Listen and learn to identify and avoid unfair judgments.

Prefer to read the transcript?

Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast, where we discuss leadership team and organizational topics and better practices. We like to provide concepts and ideas that you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop your higher potential in your work and in your leadership. I’m Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone. And I’m almost coming out of my chair over the title of today’s podcast because I’m judging why you have me on as a guest.

Bill Berthel: Stop.

Ralph Simone: So, the title. You got to tell people the title. Bill, what’s the title of today’s podcast?

Bill Berthel: Well, Judging Judgment.

Ralph Simone: Oh, beautiful. Beautiful. So, it’s my wheelhouse. Making judgments, Right. Wrong. Good. Bad.

Ralph Simone: Let’s go. What are we even talking about here?

Bill Berthel: I knew you’d be able to contribute to today’s conversation

Ralph Simone: Maybe more so than you would like.

Bill Berthel: Never.

Bill Berthel: Never. No.

In social psychology, it’s known as the fundamental attribution errorBill Berthel: Come on. Really want to talk about this concept that. Honestly, Ralph, I think we’re all attuned to. unless you’re a saint, I think we’re all doing this. In social psychology, it’s known as the fundamental attribution error. Let me give you an example. Instead of the fancy title.

Ralph Simone: That sounds fancy, though, I kind of like that.

Bill Berthel: It’s rooted in our bias. It’s an attribution effect.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: Examples help me.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: An example of this fundamental attribution error would be, attributing a coworker’s lateness. They’re tardy for work. To the fact that they’re unreliable rather than they got stuck in traffic.

Ralph Simone: Unreliable. Flaky.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, whatever, right.

Ralph Simone: I get this. Right. Okay.

Bill Berthel: The adjectives are coming out.

Bill Berthel: Right?

Bill Berthel: So, in turn, one, would give themselves grace if they were late.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: Because we’d know what happened, perhaps.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: What’s the old saying? We judge others by their actions. We judge ourselves by our intentions. That’s really the heart of this attribution error space.

Ralph Simone: So the attribution error becomes an ungrounded assessment. We’re actually drawing a conclusion without all of the information.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely. And particularly in the social psychology place, which this is really important for leaders to think about because we are leading people. It’s typically a judgment about that person’s character or personality is where we make the attribution error.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: So the example of that person was late. They’re unreliable. All of a sudden, we’re assigning this quality or this judgment to their personality or trait of them. That most likely, most cases, is actually an error.

Ralph Simone: Got it.

Ralph Simone: But that then becomes their identity or reputation. Potentially.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely.

Bill Berthel: Sometimes, just in that moment, I do this in traffic. Often I do. Someone cuts me off. It’s like that person’s a jerk, or they’re thoughtless, or they’re dangerous.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: If I did the same thing, I had the space to make that move, and I’m in a hurry.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: I know what I’m doing. The other guy doesn’t.

Bill Berthel: Right. Yeah. Ah.

Ralph Simone: My wife tried to suggest to me that the person might be having a medical emergency. I was like, oh, my God, really? So I wasn’t.

Bill Berthel: What I love about that example is that’s kind of a positive attribution error. We don’t know.

Ralph Simone: I think it was intended to help me shift my energy from what I was really thinking about. Neither one of us knew. Right.

Bill Berthel: You don’t. Probably.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Ralph Simone: So let me ask you this question. Why do we go there so quickly? Or why do leaders, why would a leader, upon somebody being late, immediately go to the person as lazy or irresponsible or not rigorous or any number of labels I could think of in a short period of time? Why would we go there?

Bill Berthel: Because it reinforces our bias that we’re correct.

Ralph Simone: And why is that important?

Bill Berthel: Most of us want to be right, and it’s also a shortcut. It’s a lower expenditure of energy than finding out what may have really happened. And sometimes we don’t have that opportunity.

Ralph Simone: Got, it.

Bill Berthel: But oftentimes, if we’re going to keep this in the context of our workplace, we do have the opportunity. We’re not making it or taking it.

Bill Berthel: Right?

Bill Berthel: So it’s less energy, it’s easier. I’m going to put the quotes around easier, and it makes us right because it’s hard to disprove.

Ralph Simone: So I’m wondering, culturally, what are the implications of this type of behavior over a period in time?

Bill Berthel: Patrick Lencioni, author of The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, suggests it’s one of the fundamental causes of conflict in our teams, whether that’s active conflict or fuels conflict, because we are reinforcing typically negative thoughts about one another. I, love the attribution error that your wife makes because it’s more gracious, but most of us are making them in a more negative, impactful way where there’s something wrong with the character of that person. Then when it comes down to a real conflict, we need to be able to talk about something we disagree about or something’s not working in our work. Well, if I’ve been telling myself all this while that you’re less than, the cultural ramifications are that we’re going to not work in conflict very well together. Matter of fact, I’m probably going to either avoid you, or when we do come together, it’s not going to be overly effective.

Ralph Simone: So this then begins to get at some good feedback guidelines. We need to separate the behavior from the person or the person’s identity, and they need to do the same. Right.

Ralph Simone: Because you could also take on a negative self-talk by identifying with some behavior that was less than optimal for you,

Bill Berthel: I think. Absolutely.

Let’s keep talking about the workplace.

Bill Berthel: I’ve noticed a, fairly significant topic where attribution error is at play. And it’s still a sensitive topic. And I’m saying still because what really surfaced, it was the pandemic. But working remotely, so many organizations we work with, despite productivity metrics, increasing engagement, not being harmed in any way, any measurable way, people wanting to work remotely. Some organizations are holding on to inaccurate observations of remote workers demanding they be in the workplace at least part of the time.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: That’s an attribution error because in talking with some of these leaders, they’re thinking that those remote workers aren’t trustworthy, or they might be goofing off just because they’re out of sight.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: Not in the office, despite the positive metrics in their business.

Ralph Simone: Can we take that from a different angle?

Bill Berthel: Yeah, do it.

Ralph Simone: so I probably have this bias, this attribution error, that I think that it is more effective if we have a place to convene, that we convene there. What What Steve Jobs used to refer to is the accidental collisions that occur because I’m physically there. So I do see the benefit of that. And I do think the accidental collisions help with relationship building. I think it helps performance. I think it helps engagement.

Bill Berthel: I think it absolutely can. I think when we are presented with data that shows the business hasn’t suffered at all, it’s actually improving and growing. The demand for people coming back out of the attribution error of they’re not trustworthy, they’re goofing off, is different than, I have a valid reason for folks coming together. I want some accidental collisions. I want social connectivity because I can provide value.

Ralph Simone: Comes back to context.

Bill Berthel: It comes back to context.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Ralph Simone: In why we want you here or why working on this particular task remotely is okay. Right? Yeah. So I think we’re lazy then. How about that for a judgment?

Bill Berthel: I think we are. I think we’re taking the easy way out sometimes.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: And so we really need to dig a little bit and not just generalize. I was reminded of one feedback guideline on a course that I did. It was standard behavior impact. We need to work harder to ground these assessments or these judgments that we’re making. Why do we have this standard? What’s the behavior? What’s the impact? And if the impact of people working remotely is driving engagement, why would we insist, unless there was a good reason that people would need?

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. There might be a good reason and there might be an experiment you want to run. Absolutely. But when we’re grounding our assessment on this attribution error, we’re on shaky ground.

Ralph Simone: And I think we use this a lot in coaching. I think, if we would slow down to go faster, in other words, let’s be more discerning and less judging.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely.

Ralph Simone: Let’s ask and listen. Let’s kind of understand. Let’s explain our why in coaching, when people start to identify with limiting behavior, we’ll ask them, well, what else could it mean? What we’re trying to do is mitigate the attribution error.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely.

Ralph Simone: Trying to open up the mindset to possibilities.

Bill Berthel: That’s right.

Ralph Simone: So that we can get positive results and positive action. So we need to do the same thing for ourselves.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Ralph Simone: We need to be less quick to attribute and more curious to find out how this is working or not working, but ground it with data.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: So we can ask ourselves, how do I know this to be true?

Ralph Simone: Yeah.

Bill Berthel: How do I know this to be true? And then we can look for that data that we can ground that assumption or that bias in. Sometimes we find that we’re just wanting to hold on to something that we’re familiar with.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: Because it’s been the way we’ve done it, or it’s something we’re comfortable with. Sometimes we find out that we’re really low in our own energy.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: When we’re not at our best, we’re not going to provide the best observations or best judgments either. We’ll be a little less accurate with those.

Ralph Simone: Got it. So it could actually be a projection on our part

Bill Berthel: And we all do it, right? We all do this to some level, start watching where this might be happening again. For me, it’s in traffic. There’s something about, I don’t know, I guess, being inside of an isolated machine, I’m not face to face with those people, and that part of my character comes out. I don’t know what that is, but see where is happening for you.

Ralph Simone: I probably shouldn’t say this out, loud, but I think it happens for me everywhere I go to a quick judgment about a situation. And I think I could benefit from slowing down a little bit because I obviously don’t have complete information, on most things.

Bill Berthel: So I think here’s one of the most important value points about trust in our relationships is that we will make these kinds of errors with one another. But when we have highly valued, high trusting relationships, we can surface these and have those conversations. I think many times these attribution errors are contributing to our missing conversations because we’re not talking about them. We’re not saying, hey, I noticed you were late three times this week coming to work. Is everything okay? Instead, I’m holding on to, You’re unreliable or whatever the example is.

Bill Berthel: Right. Yeah.

Ralph Simone: Well, we might talk ourselves out of having the conversation.

Bill Berthel: Yes.

Ralph Simone: Because our incomplete judgment has told us it won’t make any difference.

Bill Berthel: Exactly.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: We are rooted in or anchored in that incomplete judgment.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: So a missing conversation has an effect.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: On our relationship, on our work. and so, especially as a leader, we need to be able to slow down, ask, how do I know this to be true and facilitate those missing conversations.

Bill Berthel: Got it.

Ralph Simone: Well, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy the limitation or the positive. And I think that that’s critical to have these conversations and to really kind of surface what’s actually going on versus what we believe to be going on.

Bill Berthel: Exactly.

Ralph Simone: So what. Anything else on this? I mean, this was fascinating. It got me thinking about the difference between judging and discerning. So I think judging is more a knee-jerk reaction that’s often ungrounded, where discerning, we’re actually getting some evidence or some data to support the situation.

Bill Berthel: That’s exactly it. And I like the idea of taking the role of judging our judgment.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Bill Berthel: So it’s that meta judgment of, again, how do I know this to be true? What data do I have to support my decision? I’m using the decision as judgment here. Play that role yourself.

Bill Berthel: Sure. Right.

Bill Berthel: You’ll get a deeper view of how you’re making these conclusions, whether they’re accurate. Or not,

Ralph Simone: And then ask yourself, how is that thought serving you? Because if it’s preventing you from having a conversation with the person, if it’s preventing you from sharing information or reaching out in a compassionate way to help or guide, it’s getting in the way of performance at some level, probably

Bill Berthel: It is. And I mentioned this not just to normalize it, but the fact that we all do this gives me the permission to give other people some grace and give myself some grace around this. So not just to keep allowing it, not to normalize it, but to know that this is a fundamental part of our human condition and that we all have a little bit of work to do in this space. So give others grace when they do it, but don’t let that continue. Have the missing conversation for yourself. Recognize you do it. Don’t beat yourself up. Recognize that we do this. Ask yourself, how do I know it to be true? Ground it in data and then have the conversation.

Ralph Simone: I love that, Bill. It reminds me of at best, our assumptions are incomplete. At worst, they’re incorrect. And, on the essential relationships and the essential things, do a little more work to learn more about the situation so you can make an informed decision.

Bill Berthel: Nice, Ralph. Thank you.

Ralph Simone: Thanks, Bill.

Bill Berthel: And folks, thanks for listening. You can listen to a new podcast two times every month here at Get Emergent or wherever you listen to your podcasts. This is where we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas balanced with what we hope you find are better practices that you can apply directly to your work and your leadership.

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In this episode, Bill speaks with Newell Eaton, a seasoned leadership coach and creative facilitator and frequent Emergent collaborator. As leaders, we can’t possibly know everything or have a solution to every problem. Consequently, there may be a temptation to pretend we have knowledge we actually don’t. But pretending can compromise trust. Listen as Newell discusses the importance of recognizing and admitting the things we don’t know, and learning to count on others for their expertise.

Prefer to read the transcript?

Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. This is where we discuss leadership team and organizational topics and better practices. We like to provide concepts and ideas that you can turn into pragmatic experiments to help you develop your higher potential in your work and your leadership. I’m Bill Berthel and today I have a very special guest with me. He’s a longtime friend for all of us at Emergent. He’s a fellow coach, a colleague, who has what I’ll describe as a beautiful mastery and perspective on human interactions.

Bill Berthel: Newell, welcome.

Newell Eaton: Thank you, Bill. It’s really a pleasure to finally get around to having, ah, one of these conversations with you.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. Well, one that we’re going to get to record at least, right?

Newell Eaton: Exactly.

Bill Berthel: I always enjoy our conversations, and we were kind of joking just a moment ago that it’s a shame we only have, well, we have as much time as we want. We’ll only make about 20 minutes or so of this. We could talk all day.

Newell Eaton: We sure could.

Bill Berthel: So today’s topic is near and dear to both of us. It’s this idea of not knowing. The power of not knowing. Can you help me frame this concept of not just not knowing, but that there’s a power in not knowing?

Newell Eaton: Yeah, it’s interesting because so often we have this notion that as leaders, we’re supposed to be competent and know. Right.

Newell Eaton: We’re hired, we think, because we’re supposed to know, and we do know a lot, but there are many things we don’t know that sometimes we think we should know.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely.

Newell Eaton: And so from an integrity perspective, when we kind of pretend we know those things, we usually start to reduce. When people discover we fact don’t know, it really reduces trust. So as leaders, how do we recognize what we really do know? Right.

Newell Eaton: And recognize the power of that. A lot of other people know things that we don’t know. I think the core power of not knowing is recognizing how do we count on others who might know. And ah, when we think about what’s the essence of leadership? A, leader is someone who can’t get it all done by themselves. They need others to get something they care about done. They care about that they try and find other people who care about it to come together to do something. Well, those other people are the ones that by asking them what they know to do stuff, they feel like, oh, their competence is being recognized, they become appreciated. So there’s a tremendous power in team creation by a leader who does not know certain things.

Bill Berthel: Newell, I love how you just defined leadership in the way that it’s someone who can’t get it all done by themselves that really underscores what we’re talking about today. I think maybe I should speak about myself because I don’t know what other leaders are really thinking or doing. I’d like to pretend I know sometimes, and that goes right to the essence of what we’re talking about, but I think sometimes I feel that not only should I know, but I’m almost not serving the work or my people by not knowing. Right.

Bill Berthel: There’s this less than feeling, what have you seen that helps individuals, if not relieve that step into a different space than that pressure of having to know?

Newell Eaton: I think of the particular circumstance frequently when I’m coaching someone who has stepped up into a new leadership role.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Newell Eaton: And there’s anxiety about frequently because, oh, will they think I’m competent? And that is particularly true if they’re managing a group of people who are engaged in something that’s different than what they quote were experts at.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Newell Eaton: And they start being asked expert questions in that context. It’s a perfect opportunity that many in coaching, I really try and help people with this to say, I’m really good at this. I know this, and I really need all of you for these areas that I don’t know anything about. Maybe I’ll learn about through you, but really, you are the experts, and my job is to help you bring your expertise out. So, in other words, create the context so you don’t have to know.

Bill Berthel: So I love that. So that takes, I can imagine, some vulnerability in admitting to others what we don’t know.

Newell Eaton: Exactly.

Bill Berthel: Fossil anchor on what we do know. So it’s not a complete surrender. It’s not a complete, hey, I’m an ignorant person. It’s some mastery over here, but there’s plenty of other spaces that I could really use your expertise.

Newell Eaton: And the other thing with teams today, as we all know, there is so much change happening that’s unforeseeable.

Bill Berthel: Yes. And fast. Right.

Newell Eaton: And fast. So there’s a wonderful piece by Edwin Snowden called the Cynefin Model, which talks about what’s knowable and what’s unknowable.

Bill Berthel: I don’t know this model.

Newell Eaton: Yeah, it’s spelled C-Y-N-E-F-I-N I think Cynefin. And so without getting into a know training piece on it, it basically is saying there are things that are simple, that are knowable. Like a light switch. Well, flip it. You hope it’ll go out. It usually does. That’s called simple. Complicated is like, there’s probably one good way to write a computer program that will get you there most efficiently. Every time you do that, you’ll get the same results. But, like, the conversation we’re having right now, or any meeting is what he would call unknowable until it happens. It’s complex, and so you can project or estimate what might occur, but you really don’t know.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Newell Eaton: And that’s complexity. And the world we’re in today is filled with that kind of stuff. You can explain it after the fact, but you really don’t know what’s going to happen until it happens. You can try and move things in a direction, like when we facilitate groups. Right.

Newell Eaton: You kind of have an idea where it may end up, but you really don’t know till the group meets. And the fourth category, which is what is really creating havoc, is called chaos. And you can’t even figure out what happened after the fact.

Newell Eaton: It’s just like the world with so much. So the pressure the teams are feeling today is because there’s a lot of chaos out there. So as a leader, you can’t know what’s going to happen there. So how do you create the space where it’s okay to start experimenting and try small steps to navigate? And so to me, that is really accepting you don’t know and then beginning the process of what are little ways we can figure out the future or our best attempt and that fail fast stuff we sometimes talk about or to pilot things, that’s because we’re living more and more in a chaotic world. So as a leader, how do you have the resilience to accept you don’t know the future, you never really did. But now we really know we don’t. So how do you play into that space? And so to me, that’s the power of recognizing you don’t know and to begin to explore the power of small steps, if you will. Let’s try this. Let’s try this kind of stuff.

Bill Berthel: So the differentiation between complex and chaotic is the foreseeable potential future state. Chaotic is we even get to the future and look back and it’s difficult to really tell what has happened.

Newell Eaton: I sometimes think of complexity, like, if you have an organization that has meetings on a regular basis, every meeting is going to be different, but there’s a general flow that you can sense what’s likely to occur. You can do probabilities with some degree of success in complexity.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Newell Eaton: Writing a strategic plan?

Newell Eaton: Right.

Newell Eaton: yeah. It won’t come out like it never comes out like what you proposed, but there’s approximation, and you can navigate it, whereas today’s world is far more often chaotic. We think we know what will happen, but certainly the whole Covid time was a time of extreme chaos. No one could. I mean, there were people who kind of forecast it was going to happen someday, but to see what was going to happen out of it and how it’s affected organizations and the hybrid and all the rest of it, we get to deal with hybrid, like what we’re doing right now, in a way. I don’t think any of us had a handle on that in 2017 18.

Newell Eaton: Right.

Newell Eaton: So the power of not knowing was to appreciate there’s going to be an unknowable future, and how do you set yourself up to be resilient enough to be able to deal in that world as a team? So how do you use that?

Bill Berthel: Yes, let’s go there, because I think you’re right. I think leaders are working in more, perhaps chaotic environments or chaotic topics. the way we’re defining chaotic currently, it’s making me think of the acronym VUCA. volatility, uncertainty, complexity.

Newell Eaton: Right.

Bill Berthel: There’s ambiguity that’s there. What do we do about it? So there’s this thing of not knowing, having a willingness to not know. What’s the pragmatic?

Newell Eaton: Yeah.

Bill Berthel: What do I do?

Newell Eaton: First of all, get your team together, or get, if you want to even go broader, who are people who are going to have points of view, the whole benefits of what we talk about with Dei these days, right, to get different opinions, to have inclusion, get the wisdom of the more diverse crowd.

Newell Eaton: Right?

Newell Eaton: And then from that group, I love that, one of my colleagues, Tim Hurson, wrote a book on productivity thinking, and in it, he uses this tool called what he calls the no wonder tool. What do I know? What do I wonder?

Bill Berthel: Love it.

Newell Eaton: So what do I know is what do I really know? What are facts or in ontological terms, what are assertions? Right.

Newell Eaton: What do we really know? They’re facts. What are opinions or assessments or guesses? Well, some of those have more probability they could still fit in the no category. And what are our assumptions about reality and getting a group to do that. But then what do we wonder? And that’s where we start looking at alternative futures or alternative possibilities. So by even doing that, not that those futures happen that way, but the process of engaging in that, like the benefit of planning, is you at least are preparing yourself for alternative futures, you’ve got kind of a game plan on what you’re going to do with change when it happens, all of a sudden, someone gets sick who’s going to take their role. Right. That type of being, clarity about those kinds of things. An organization that does that is then much better prepared to deal with alternative futures.

Bill Berthel: It sounds to me like a lot of paradoxes, or the topic of polarity management, which, you and I have talked about, we’ve talked about on our podcast. This really comes in play here, because I have a plan. I have some structure, but I’m imagining not knowing will also require a great deal of flexibility and adaptability in my plan, perhaps. Right.

Bill Berthel: Because I’m going to discover some of my wonderment is going to uncover things I could not have planned for. And so adaptability is going to be really important there.

Newell Eaton: Exactly. I mean, I’ll use what we’re doing right now. I entered this call with like, oh, there’s some things I might want to talk about. I didn’t know what I was going to say. We’ve drifted in some directions that were kind of like, maybe in my footnotes of, oh, maybe we’ll go over there. But it flowed that way. Right.

Newell Eaton: I didn’t know this was going to happen. I mean, I’m really appreciating our conversation, Bill, because I think it’s gone where it needed to go for whatever that means.

Newell Eaton: We’ll assess that at the end, afterwards, perhaps. But so much of accepting that is really, how does someone become a resilient leader and create teams that have that flexibility? I’m talking about that because that’s the space I mainly focus on and see where it can have the most impact on the world. That whole notion that the world’s going to change because of the quality of leadership that we create, conscious leadership, is the answer. So how do we build that? Well, power of non knowing is one of the core competencies I think we need to help leaders develop.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, I so agree.

Newell, talk to me a little bit about how you guide or work with leaders. Know this isn’t easy when there’s expectations on me. I’ve got specific goals and objectives to deliver for my organization or for my boss man, just letting go doesn’t feel like the thing to do. I’ve got to deliver.

Newell Eaton: Yeah, well, it’s not letting go.

Bill Berthel: Yes.

Bill Berthel: Good. Differentiate for me,

Newell Eaton: It’s recognizing, I do not know, or I may suspect I might have a notion of what it is, but I really don’t know. To really recognize I’m jumping to conclusions or I’m making some assumptions. Who do I know or where might I find out how to know if that exists and then if that doesn’t exist? Because sometimes it doesn’t exist, how do I get a group of us together, like I was saying a little bit earlier, that we can at least come up with the highest probability or at least some alternative scenarios.

Newell Eaton: And so it’s more than one person observing that future, but you’ve built trust in your team that everybody’s, like, kind of working together on.

Newell Eaton: Because all those different eyes and points of view can really start to see it, perhaps with a better chance of success.

Bill Berthel: And it speaks to the importance and value of how we build our teams and develop our teams. Right.

Bill Berthel: As much as we can plan that at the highest probability of diverse skill sets on our team to get that collective intelligence, any one individual, there’s kind.

Newell Eaton: Of a freedom in it.

Speaker B: I.

Newell Eaton: Actually do some embodiment activities around it where I ask people to just realize they can’t control gravity. Right?

Newell Eaton: Yes, they can count on gravity, at least up till now. Right.

Bill Berthel: And I try to lessen my relationship with it by losing weight. But hear what you’re saying.

Newell Eaton: But the notion of gravitas, right. it’s like, notice you can trust gravity, right? So really beginning with what are things you could really trust? If you try and stop breathing, you won’t succeed. Your body will breathe for you. It’s sort of developing your inside game. I sometimes think of leadership development as we help people develop their inside game first so that they can really be more effective with their outside game. Right.

Newell Eaton: But it begins inside. It doesn’t begin outside. A lot of times they want us to work first on their outside game, when really you got to get the inside, their embodied sense, their emotional capacity, their capacity to think in various ways so that they can really bring their best of what they got to offer the world forward. And that learning to know yourself is knowable, at least some of it. So how do we start with, what can you really know about yourself? So when you’re dealing with that external unknown, you’re feeling more assurance, or even if you’re feeling unsure, you know, you’re unsure so that you can reach. It’s the getting to that self awareness level and being, learning to count on others that really, I think really matters. In using this not knowing principle, I.

Bill Berthel: So appreciate the concept of embodying the lack of that control, like our relationship with gravity or our inability to stop breathing. Yeah.

Bill Berthel: Love that we can remind ourselves, we can ground and center ourselves in that that’s right, yeah. beautiful.

Bill Berthel: Newell, I choose a word or a theme for myself for every year, and I want to share with you that 2024. My word is adventure. And my theme is to have more exploration and wonder through adventure. This conversation is centered in that space. For me, I’m really appreciating it personally, because often adventure is defined in a way where you’re out doing something potentially unknown and or dangerous. Right.

Bill Berthel: Danger is usually associated with that idea of adventure. And I wonder, what do you think about that idea as we navigate the unknown? How do we navigate those risks or those potential dangers?

Newell Eaton: Yeah, I think you’ve named part of it as a way to begin, is how do we be curious? How do we open up our curiosity? Even before that, it’s like, how do we appreciate ourselves, the world we’ve been given, the life we’ve been given, how do we start with those fundamentals? Because sometimes people are so out there. The miracle of being a human being. Right. And the miracle of being the human that we are. I just find that people don’t spend enough time in appreciation of really the life they’ve been given. So it’s like starting with that. When someone can be curious, they’ve already, in a way, like yourself, you’ve already have some inner appreciation of that.

Newell Eaton: It’s a precondition for it. And beyond appreciation, it’s enjoying life. How many stressed out people do we have? It’s like, hey, we’re pretty privileged. Can you enjoy your privilege? Rather than be guilty about your privilege, can you just be in that kind of awareness and appreciation of self and enjoyment? From there, adventure begins, because then you’ve got a foundation for curiosity and you can move out. And a lot of times I find people are so lost with the outside and really what some would call an adult development, socialized mind, that they really aren’t ready for that self discovery, that self authoring, and the excitement that we have as coaches is to really help people to recognize that and begin to just even take the pause to pay attention to themselves rather than all that out focus. I call it the breath marks. In the sheet of music. Anybody reads music, there are these breath marks. How are you picking breath marks in your life? Right?

Bill Berthel: Yeah, so it’s those strategic pauses, that self reflection, breath pauses. We have that opportunity to recenter ourselves or appreciate ourselves.

Newell Eaton: Yeah, yeah, I think that’s where it begins. Bill.

Bill Berthel: What I love about this space we’re talking about is, I liken it to that fertile ground for creativity. This is the space that maybe more pure or genuine creativity is really venturing into something that’s unknown. We’re creating something.

Newell Eaton: Exactly.

Bill Berthel: Perhaps every creation is created twice. There’s a thought and then a manifestation of that. But even to have that thought, we have to be able to say, oh, I didn’t know that before.

Newell Eaton: Yeah.

Bill Berthel: Otherwise it’s just a duplication, not a creation.

Newell Eaton: Yeah.

Newell Eaton: I’ve been really listening and reading a lot from Ursula Laguin’s, not her Sci-Fi so much, but her opinion pieces around. Oh, she does this beautiful talk, and I’ve been thinking about it a lot about the word she prefers to creativity, because creativity has been kind of taken over by Madison Avenue, is like creativity is to produce a profit, right? Uses the word imagination, I love it. And so imagining, it’s like visioning. So she would like to call her work imaginary fiction, not science fiction or whatever. I’m interested in peaking people’s imagination now. It’s really my, adopted new vocabulary. Not that I’ve been teaching creative problem solving for how many years now? 25 years.

Bill Berthel: Sure.

Newell Eaton: So it’s in there. But I’m intrigued by, and when you think about the unknown, how do we imagine a future?

Bill Berthel: Yes.

Newell Eaton: Rather than create a future, it’s a little more ephemeral, perhaps, but I think it offers more stretch.

Bill Berthel: It also invites the power of not knowing, doesn’t it?

Newell Eaton: Sure does.

Bill Berthel: It really invites that power of not knowing. Imagine what we don’t know, imagine what we’re not yet.

Newell Eaton: That’s right. Yeah.

Bill Berthel: I love it, thank you.

Newell Eaton: Oh, thank you. This has been a wonderful conversation. Appreciate it, Bill.

Bill Berthel: Always. And thanks for listening. You can listen to a new podcast two times every month here at Get Emergent or wherever you listen to your podcasts. This is where we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas balanced with what we hope you find are better practices that you can apply directly to your work and your leadership. Thanks for listening.

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In this episode, Ralph and Bill discuss identifying the key takeaways, insights, and concepts that we as leaders want our team members to remember, and perhaps more importantly, how we can help them apply those learnings to deliver positive results for the organization.

Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast, where we discuss leadership, team, and organizational topics and best practices. We like to provide ideas, concepts, and pragmatic experiments to help you develop your potential in your work and your leadership. I’m Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel: Ralph, today we’re talking about a topic that actually, I think, often comes up for us in our coaching but this has been coming up as a request for us to talk about on a podcast. This is the movement of going from a peer to a supervisor entering leadership, but specifically from being a peer in a group or a team.

Ralph Simone: Yeah, it’s uncomfortable for many people, but it’s really about a relationship change or relationship management.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. I think most people that are in this space, they are excited about the promotion, they’re excited about the opportunity they’re being provided. But they may be a little apprehensive, a little nervous, maybe even have some concerns about how will the relationships change.

Ralph Simone: I think there’s initial fear, around awkwardness. It’s going to be awkward. How do I maintain my friendship while now becoming this person’s supervisor?

Bill Berthel: Yeah, I think it is awkwardness. Not too long ago, I was coaching a very talented young man. He was a high performer in a somewhat technical role. It was in manufacturing. And he was becoming the shift supervisor. So kind of a classic peer-to-supervisor, peer-to-leadership kind of movement. And he knew all the players. They were mostly male. It was a manufacturing floor, but high-tech manufacturing floor. He had demonstrated all the knowledge and the skills and the ability, had all the aptitude for leadership. Great young man. His greatest concern was the dress code in their organization. Everyone in the leadership role needed to wear, like, a button-down shirt and chinos or slacks. He couldn’t wear jeans and a sweatshirt anymore. And he was so concerned about that disconnect. I found that both are endearing about him and real. Right. Because I think it is about the relationship. He didn’t want any disconnect to happen, and he was simply concerned that dressing differently meant something.

Ralph Simone: Well, and it does, now it doesn’t have to, but I mean, I’m reminded of my days in Catholic school. One of the ways they leveled the playing field is that everyone wore a uniform. And that way there could be no discomfort created by people who had more or less discretionary income to buy clothing. And it was to keep the focus. So I can understand that discomfort.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely.

Ralph Simone: As I was preparing for this podcast, I was trying to think of my own transitions from peer to supervisor. And the one that was fairly challenging, although I think I navigated it reasonably well, was in college when I became an RA resident assistant, and I got placed on a floor with guys that I was friends with, that I was in class with, that we went out socially. Now I was going to be responsible for it. wasn’t exactly maintaining law and order, but let’s just put it that way.

Bill Berthel: Close to that.

Ralph Simone: And so it did create a bit of an awkward dynamic, no question about it.

Bill Berthel: Well, that’s a great example of the concern on how will the relationship change. Here I am in this different position, and I think one of the questions is how friendly can I be now? Can I still maintain a quote unquote friendship with my who were peers or friends now that I’m leading in some capacity? If I’m a supervisor or manager, how does that shift?

Ralph Simone: It was interesting, Bill. I think I navigated that really well because I don’t think I was smart enough to complicate it. And one of the things I did with these guys, I had a meeting at the beginning, I said, look it, I have a role, a new role and responsibility towards all of the, students in this dorm. And I’m getting paid from the college, and so I have to make sure I serve them while still maintaining my relationship with you. And I was really pretty clear. I said, don’t put me in a jackpot situation and everything’s okay, but if I need to decide between you and my job, I’m going to pick the job. One might say that was a little harsh. I’m sure I didn’t say it that directly, but I established some new ground rules for how the relationship was going to work. And I actually also was pretty clear on what hat I had on.

Bill Berthel: So the clarity of roles is really important in your story, the both/and approach and attitude. It doesn’t have to be either or. I’m, now the RA, so I can’t be your friend. It doesn’t have to get polarized that way. But you prioritized the clarity of role as well.

Ralph Simone: Absolutely. And I think that polarization is a mistake that many people make. I can no longer be the friend. I can no longer fraternize. I can no longer go to happy hour baloney. It can be the both/and role. Just have clarity around what role you’re in.

Bill Berthel: The role does perhaps draw the lines in slightly different places in some of the relationships. As a new leader, there may be some activities that aren’t wise to take part in any longer. Perhaps the line gets drawn. I’m not going to share specific examples necessarily, but if it borderlines inappropriateness, you need to not be part of that.

Ralph Simone: Perhaps I’m having flashbacks because one of the wings that I was assigned to these guys were brilliant and devious, and they were partiers and I remember I would go out with them, but I’d leave early and they go, Where are you going? I said, I got a job to do, and I cannot be coming back with you guys because I’m not sure how you’re going to behave or what move you’re going to make. And I need to be able to that’s right. Participate in my role as RA back at the dormitory. So that was interesting I managed it fairly adroitly, unless I’m sure my memory is not quite accurate, but I think I did it pretty well.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely.

Bill Berthel: I think that, ties into another, perhaps, point of concern or questions that folks have as they’re making this transition from peer to supervisor. Having a conversation with a friend is probably different than having a conversation with a direct report. And when something must be surfaced, perhaps sometimes we call these pivotal conversations, or we have to have a quote, unquote difficult conversation. How does that happen now? How does that change?

Ralph Simone: Well, what advice should we give people? Because I do think you can get yourself sideways, and I want to be careful about this because I encourage people to be vulnerable. But if you’re too open, if you share all of your frustrations with your boss, you could actually develop the reputation of being a complainer, of being a person difficult to manage, even though you’re just going with them because you feel safe in their presence.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. And I appreciate you sharing that idea of being either that complainer or the squeaky wheel in the group. I think perhaps on the other end of that spectrum could be something like favoritism. So we want to make sure that we’re equitable in facilitating these types of conversations with our direct reports that we’re not showing favoritism and that we are surfacing all pivotal conversations or leaving no missing conversation as the supervisor. We had spoken in a previous podcast about the idea of being a friend and a supervisor. And I think if we look back at that information, we suggested that, a really good friend has those kind of conversations. So let’s ground that in. Perhaps it’s not too different, but the role must be clear, the priorities must be clear, and as a supervisor, we do so equitably across our team.

Ralph Simone: I love those as guidelines. Don’t overcomplicate it. Don’t go in with a mindset that you can’t manage it right. And there’s really never been a time when doing the right thing is not the right thing. And so what’s the conversation you would have with this friend? What is the conversation you would have with this person who is now your direct report? And if it’s really a strong friendship, out of respect, you would provide the feedback when and if needed.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely. I think it’s something analogous in this space of, being concerned, moving from peer to supervisor, peer to leader, whatever level that is. Because, by the way, I don’t think this is just in that space of I’ve never been in a leadership role. I think as we progress in our leadership development and roles of higher leadership or responsibility open up for us, these same dynamics show up. So we could be a, fairly seasoned manager, and moving up to be a VP or higher in the organization. I think these same dynamics show up. I think you just shared it’s, respect it’s. Those common interests, not the position.

Ralph Simone: Looks like most of my stories are historic. But my days at Cooper’s Library, which is now PwC, I had a peer of mine who became a partner before did, and I reminded him as he made that, ascent, I said, let’s remember the conversations we used to have about the things that frustrated us, and I want to be able to still give you that feedback. I know your role has changed, but if you have the perspective of the people that are affected by some of the decisions of the senior leadership, I think you can make better choices. And then he said, well, recognize that I may not be able to influence all those outcomes the way that we had discussed, but we had that conversation. I actually initiated it because I wanted him to remember the things that frustrated us from some of the leaders who were managing us. And he seemed to respect it. And I think it came from a place of mutual respect.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely. Personally, I had a story around a promotion that I received very early in my career, where, while I wasn’t leading a team, I became the, quality manager. I was an army of one in the organization because it was still relatively small, but that provided a platform of significant authority and kind of supervisor leadership responsibilities over the production floor. There were two other folks that went for the same position. And so that dynamic of sometimes we’re promoted in an internal I call it a race for that position. And I think there’s specific navigating skills to consider in that type of situation as well.

Ralph Simone: What did you do? I’m just curious what you did in that situation.

Bill Berthel: so two of the three were pretty easy, conversations. They were happy for me, of course, disappointed that they didn’t get the role. And I had two strong partners. The third was not the third was actually starting to sabotage. Yeah. So, it was a quality manager position, and so it became a little bit more difficult. What created the pivotal point was to align on our common interests. M was to not take the positions but to align on the common interests. This was an individual who deeply cared about what he did. Yes, he was deeply disappointed that he didn’t get the role, but there was an opportunity to convert him back into a partner by really focusing on those interests. And we had the interest of both high-quality production, excelling at our own jobs, and found the way that we could help one another with that.

Ralph Simone: So I really like so, but communication is the cornerstone to making this transition successfully. Seems like that’s critical.

Bill Berthel: And I think timing Ralph, I think giving people the opportunity to have some of their emotional responses is needed. That was not a conversation in day two. It was a conversation, quite honestly, like week five.

Ralph Simone: You’re reminding me of, this is slightly off topic, but related. When I was a supervisor, four minute carrier, it wasn’t my peers that I was managing, it was their fathers.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: I was managing a production line when I was 24, and I would say a half a dozen of the guys that worked on the line were fathers of friends of mine growing up.

Bill Berthel: Yes.

Ralph Simone: people who I used to call Mr. And I still did when I went to their house, but now they work for me and so on in the first name. And that was also awkward. But what helped is communicating that we have different skills and strengths, we have a different role. My job is not to necessarily tell you how to build these air conditioning units.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Ralph Simone: My job is to schedule it’s, to get parts it’s to perhaps balance the line, because that’s what I know how to do. And having those clarifying conversations, up front. But that was awkward. I had to call Mr. Smith. Joe and I had to ask Mr. Smith to move down to the other. And Mr. Smith was kind of a mentor of mine growing up. Right. It was an interesting experience.

Bill Berthel: And not to take anything away from your story, but I bet a lot of our listeners have some similar awkwardness in their organizations. especially I’ve found in our region of central New York, folks are very loyal and they stay with organizations, and their families join organizations, which builds that dynamic. Right. Multi generational or lots of different relationships, brothers, fathers, uncles, aunts, and so forth. I think it’s pretty common.

Ralph Simone: Absolutely. I probably shouldn’t say this, but nepotism is okay as long as we keep it in the family.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, well, so actually that’s another interesting, maybe dilemma or challenge for folks going from peer to supervisor is navigating the kind of organizational awareness, the political landscape, and perhaps in some organizations that includes, family or other personal relationships.

Ralph Simone: I think you said it pretty clearly, the idea of communicating, not having the missing conversation, the mindset that you bring in that you can be both a supervisor and a friend, but having maybe some new operating ground rules on how that new relationship will be navigated. And I think talking about those things sooner rather than later.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Ralph Simone: The longer you wait avoiding a conversation, the more awkward it is, generally speaking. And so we want to put things in play right off the bat.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely.

Bill Berthel: I’m m going to project here a little bit for this next topic, because I found it to be the most difficult aspect of moving into leadership was in one of those situations where you have to discipline, or even worse, terminate one of your friends or ex peers. Now that you’re a leader, it sometimes comes down to that, that’s sometimes the responsibility, of a supervisor or manager is to provide discipline or even worse. And I did. It was actually one of my very first terminations. Was a friend. yeah. You don’t sleep the night before getting to that decision. I’ll be honest, is influenced by the relationship. It’s harder to look at that objectively. Right. You worked with us in this case, it was a guy, you worked with him. You know, his family. All that comes in. Right. We’re not human if we’re not considering that. Sure. To sit down and have that conversation first in the space of human dignity, I have found to be the key. You still see the human in front of you. You do care. You don’t disconnect, you don’t disassociate from that.

Ralph Simone: Good.

Bill Berthel: but you don’t allow that to stop you from having the clear conversation you need to have around the performance and around the decision that might have been made to separate ways.

Ralph Simone: And that may be one of the things that people fear the most, is that they may at some point be confronted with making that decision with somebody who is a friend. And you said something I think is important to share with our listeners. I think we are all subjective. The key to being more objective is to admit that we are subjective absolutely. And own that, and to use that knowledge to help us navigate these tricky situations.

Ralph Simone: So what other advice would we give people who have made or are making this transition from peer to supervisor?

Bill Berthel: So I think you have to own it. I really think that folks are watching you. You’re absolutely on a different stage or platform. And a humble confidence in owning that space is really important. That builds even greater trust, rapport, and confidence with your previous peers. Now, those folks that you are supervising or managing or leading, I think you got to own it.

Ralph Simone: Nice.

Ralph Simone: Anything else we’d offer? Where to start? So if you start with owning it, what else would you do?

Bill Berthel: I think it’s back to that both and mindset. and this might be philosophical, and some of our listeners might disagree that if we subscribe to I’m now your leader and there is no other relationship than that, that’s one way I have found the most successful leaders to subscribe to. We can absolutely still be friendly. We are not just supervisor subordinate. I don’t even like the word subordinate, but, I don’t have a better word for the connection there. But that we’re all interested in some similar outcomes to make that happen.

Ralph Simone: One of the things you’re raising is context matters. And so in the context of the job, in the context of executing, the role is different.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely.

Ralph Simone: Context of friendship, the role is different. It got me thinking about the parent role. The parent child relationship is not always it can be a friendly relationship.

Bill Berthel: Sure.

Ralph Simone: It can be a supervisory relationship, and it can also be, as the parent, someone who’s being guided and taught by the child absolutely in the context matters, in the ability to kind of recognize that shift in context and put on whatever hat is appropriate for that conversation. I remember, in a non admiring way, some of my friends used to say, who’s in charge at your house? And I said, It depends on the situation. There are certain things that I am the supervisor, if you will, but there are many things where we’re simply peer to peer, and others where my children were in the supervisory role, and they thought that was upside down. But that’s because we look at it as either or, as opposed to being able to adjust what role we’re in based on the context of the situation.

Bill Berthel: Ralph I think that’s great parenting advice that does absolutely relate to leadership. I think that is a way to put into practice partnering with those that you lead, looking at the situation and the context. And it’s a way that we can empower our people on our teams to do more, to grow, to learn and develop and build more trust, rapport and psychological safety as that leader. Love that piece.

Ralph Simone: I think it’s, partnering for performance, maybe from a different vantage point, but keeping that in mind, that that’s what we’re interested in, performance.

Bill Berthel: Ralph thank you.

Ralph Simone: Thanks, Bill.

Bill Berthel: And thank you for listening. You can listen to a new podcast two times every month here at Get, Emergent, or wherever you listen to our podcasts, we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas. Balanced with what we hope you find are better practices that you can apply directly to your work and your leadership.

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Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast, where we discuss leadership team and organizational topics and best practices. We like to provide ideas, concepts, and pragmatic experiments to help you develop your potential in your work and leadership. And today we have a special show with Ralph Simone, sharing some, life and leadership advice inspired from a book he just read.

Bill Berthel: I’m Bill Berthel

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone. And I am chomping at the bit. I was actually up at 04:00 a.m. And we had only planned to do one podcast today, and I got to the end of this book, and let’s end the suspense. It’s called the Book of Charlie. It’s on the New York Times bestseller list. The author is David von Drell, and the subtitle is wisdom from the remarkable American life of 109-year-old man.

Bill Berthel: Oh, wow.

Ralph Simone: And it was just a delightful book. It’s a little different than maybe some of the books I usually read and a lot of interesting stories. Now, what I was hoping for is that throughout the book that I would kind of dispense these words of wisdom. And, it wasn’t until the last few pages that the author kind of recounts a list of wisdom from Charlie White, the 109-year-old man, former, was a doctor, GP, and then an anesthesiologist. And I’d like to share some of them and talk about their connection to leadership.

Bill Berthel: Oh, that’s great. Can’t wait to hear it.

Ralph Simone: Yeah, the very first one.

Ralph Simone: And we’ve seen this one on other podcasts, do the right thing.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: I mean, when you have a choice, do the right thing. And I think we’ve talked about in the Ted Lasso podcast, doing the right thing is never the wrong thing to do. And sometimes we need to take that strategic pause. We need to check in with our conscience, with our values, to determine what that right thing is.

Bill Berthel: I love grounding that in values, and I often think of that space of doing the right thing because we are subjective creatures and the situation could influence us differently. I was always subscribing to that. You do the right thing no matter who’s watching. And that’s your character showing up? That’s your character.

Ralph Simone: So the second one, which I think is one that I’ve subscribed to, and I think it makes some of the people we work with go crazy, is think freely. I love this idea of thinking freely. Thinking for yourself, doing the research. Don’t just believe something just because someone said it, or even that you read it somewhere.

Bill Berthel: So, free thinking to me, Ralph, is that beautiful space of creativity and it allows us for any and all possibilities. I think we suspend judgment and then we can think freely

Ralph Simone: And we ask ourselves what could be?

Bill Berthel: Absolutely.

Ralph Simone: And it’s amazing.

So tied to that, there was a long list and we’re only featuring a handful of them.

Ralph Simone: Practice patience.

Bill Berthel: That’s so hard.

Ralph Simone: As a parent, as a coach, as a business owner, this idea, part of my purpose is to allow things to flow and unfold at their own pace and speed. Now I have that as part of my purpose statement to counterbalance what I think is my natural, impatience to want things to happen quickly. But practice patience in what you do in all your relationships and probably most importantly with yourself.

Bill Berthel: I just read a quote this morning. I’m sure I’m going to butcher it here, but the essence was the universe isn’t in a hurry, you are. Where can you slow things down to match the pace of nature is where it was going. And I just liked that.

Ralph Simone: That’s brilliant. I love that a lot.

Ralph Simone: The next one that caught my attention was forgive and seek forgiveness. I think part of forgive for me is letting things go and really moving on. I think part of the reason that you forgive is so that you can unburden yourself of the weight you’re carrying over an actual or imagined transgression.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely.

Ralph Simone: The next two I want to put together and maybe we’re getting a little mystical or quantum physical with this, but observe miracles. And then the one that goes with it, its companion is, and make them happen. And I’m reminded, and this comes from a course in miracles, that a miracle is a slight shift in perception.

Bill Berthel: Nice.

Ralph Simone: And I think part of the work that we have been attracted to is helping people shift their perspective so that they can step further into their greatness, which is a form of a miracle.

Bill Berthel: Well, you mentioned quantum physics. I think it was Albert Einstein that said there are two ways in which to approach life as if nothing’s a miracle or as if everything’s a miracle.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. And what different energy, • if we approach it as if everything’s a miracle.

Ralph Simone: Absolutely.

Ralph Simone: The next one I really resonated with personally. Trust yourself enough to take risks. Trust yourself enough to take risks. I think sometimes we play it safe, we play it conservatively because we’re not trusting in our innate greatness, in that what I believe is unlimited potential that we each have in life.

Bill Berthel: Our family is not big on reality TV, but we just started watching this show that is inspired by James Bond. So these pairs and couples, it might be two brothers, might be two friends, might be husband and wife. They’re all put in situations that are very James Bond like to get the next question so they can go on in the quest. And these are like crazy scary things. These are common people, you know scaling buildings and doing all the James Bond stuff. And through the whole show I’m going, oh my gosh, I would not do that. My wife is right away, I would do that. I would do that. So I asked her, I said, what’s the difference? She said, I think I trust myself to do that.

Bill Berthel: And she’s right. I don’t trust myself to do those physical challenges. I think this applies to psychological challenges as well.

Ralph Simone: Absolutely. Because in order to extend trust to others, there needs to be self trust.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: And so I think there is a correlation. Last couple. Be soft sometimes.

Ralph Simone: And I think for me, soft is hard for me to do. But to be soft and really be real, to be authentic, to allow yourself, to allow your compassion to come through, because that creates connection.

Bill Berthel: I like that space. I work to practice that continually, especially my closest relationships. And I’m reminded by the tanzanian proverb that nature breaks what does not bend. And I think being flexible is a form of softness or being gentle.

Ralph Simone: Great. Another perspective on it, a form of agility, right?

Bill Berthel: I think so.

Ralph Simone: This to be resilient.

Ralph Simone: And then, the last two I’m going to are paired together and we can kind of wrap up, make some mistakes and then learn from them. I think we try to be perfect or if we try to do things flawlessly, we’re really not pushing ourselves to our full potential. And if we make it okay to make mistakes with the focus that we will learn, more and more people would be in positive action.

Bill Berthel: Ralph, thanks for sharing that list.

Ralph Simone: Yeah, it’s a fun book. I highly recommend it. Charlie White was a gentleman’s name. Lessons that you can learn from 109 year old man.

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Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel: Ralph, I love the title of today’s podcast. So What, Now What? What are we talking about here?

Ralph Simone: This was early in my consulting career, and I worked with a brilliant consultant by the name of Ron Cardis. And, we were working together delivering a course at Corning. And he said, whenever we do a module as part of this work, we need to be able to answer the question, so what now what? And I was intrigued by that. I don’t think back then I was even smart enough to understand it.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Ralph Simone: I liked it. It was catchy. But this idea of so what? What’s the key takeaway? What are the insights? What are the concepts that we want people to remember? And equally important, how can they apply them? What can they do with it? And I thought from a training and design standpoint, when we think about training that we do, when we think about the podcasts that we deliver, I think one of the things we want to answer both of those questions, so what that’s the concept. Now what? That’s the application.

Bill Berthel: And so I’m hearing, both and balancing concept and application. I’m hearing the abstract and the concrete. I’m hearing what do I get? What insights can I pull from this? And then what do I do about it? What am I actually going to get done or practice?

Ralph Simone: Exactly the fine line on the concept.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Ralph Simone: The abstract. Because I think we want to be careful not to be overly prescriptive.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Ralph Simone: Because there’s so many things that someone could extract from something. And it brings me back. Even though I’m an accounting major in college, I really loved the true liberal arts education. And what I loved about it and I think an important part of anything that we as leaders do is to get people to think for themselves, to think about thinking, to not necessarily give them the answer, but to share information that would allow them to create their own answers. I think that’s the abstract part, and I think we are looking for people to pull things from that abstraction.

Leaders need to be able to abstract from content and apply itBill Berthel: What do you think is getting in the way of abstracting? What do you think is getting in the way of thinking?

Ralph Simone: Time. I mean, I always forget the title of this book, but it was a New York Times bestseller, and the author was an educator. And, she talked about how most people do not have the time or the attention span to read an entire book anymore because we’re getting hit with these sound bites and links and things. And so I think the perceived lack of time I don’t want to think about it. I just want you to tell me.

Bill Berthel: Yes.

Ralph Simone: And I think there’s a real power in pulling out of it, what you pull out of it, and then having some guidance as how you would apply it.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Ralph Simone: Because we do see a benefit to getting a return on the investment. But I wish I could think of the title, that book. I’ll think of it later, but that was really a good lesson. But I think we need to be okay with getting out of it what we got out of it.

Bill Berthel: So there’s a little bit what’s coming up for me is operating in the gray compared to just the black and white of things. Both are important, but the space of cultivating more skills, especially as a leader, in being able to extract the lesson from the content, whether it be a book or a podcast, whether it be, a life experience, extract that lesson from the content or experience, and then at least experiment with something or put something into application. Put something into action. That’s a really important skill set for leaders it sounds.

Ralph Simone: I think it is, because I think too many things are way too ambiguous. Have a recipe or a formula to figure it out. And I think I’ll just speak for myself. One of the reasons I might not want to invest in pulling out my lesson from the abstract is I’m afraid I don’t know enough.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Ralph Simone: I can remember I used to poo poo art because I really didn’t get or, you know, when my son would suggest I read Whitman’s Leaves of Grass, and I said, geez, what the hell am I going to do with this? But I think I was afraid to just experience it and pull out of it whatever I pulled out of it, and then turn it into my own application. And I go back to my Covey days where he talked about the goose and the golden egg. and the golden egg are the results we get in our lives and our leadership. But the goose is the asset. That’s the production capability.

Ralph Simone: And I think the reason we want people to think for themselves is that that enhances our production capability for the entire organization.

Bill Berthel: So we need everyone thinking.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. Because things are changing and you can’t be everywhere at once. And so we want people thinking for themselves. We want people closest to the action thinking it through. There are certain types of jobs because of safety or things. There’s a consistent procedure. But when we’re breaking new ground, when we’re dealing with the complexities of this changing environment and economy, we want people to be able to think through it on their own.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, I think especially in leadership roles, the way to move forward might be a little ambiguous. maybe we’re in something so innovative, there isn’t a precedence for this type of work or what to do next. We really have to be very creative and abstract from what we have and what we know, to make new action. I think that is the role of a leader. Yeah.

Ralph Simone: give me the playbook. I would if it existed. But you’re creating the playbook.

Bill Berthel: Creating the playbook, yes.

Ralph Simone: And there are times when we will have a playbook that we can leave behind, but I think think of how exciting that is, and we’re all capable of doing it. I think when people, they sell themselves short, when they say, oh, I just don’t get it. Well, get what? First of all, you’re assuming there’s only one thing to get. And second of all, you’re selling yourself short, that you don’t have the ability to abstract meaning out of something conceptual.

Bill Berthel: You do. Yeah. I, love your example of art, because, as you know, I’ve spent the majority of my career around creative people, mostly painters and gallery etiquette isn’t that hard. It’s basically don’t touch anything unless you’re invited to touch it. From there, you’re free to roam about and look and enjoy. And soak it in. Right. But from there, what do I do with that experience? How do I look at this piece of work, especially if it is truly abstract? Non representational. Right. Like, just think of different pieces of artwork. The number one selling from visual art, from paintings, is landscapes, because we know what they look like, we know how to interpret them. We’ve all seen landscapes. Right. But the highest valued is abstract art. Non representational abstract art. Why it demands you to be creative.

Ralph Simone: And interpret it and give yourself permission to be give yourself permission to not know, because the artist may not have known. And part of the power is that you can interpret it any way you want and turn it into your now what? However it so moves you. And I think we sometimes and I think this is more a Western phenomenon we need to get it right.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: I remember being a little intimidated around people who knew a lot about wine, and some guy netted it out for me. He said, pay attention to what you like. Write it down.

Bill Berthel: Order that again.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. He goes, that’s how I started. Right. Don’t overcomplicate it. So what? Now what? But I think we want both we want to be able to interpret in abstract, take from the concepts, and then be able to apply it in a way that works for us and I think suspending judgment, too, trying to think that there’s only one way to interpret something. I mean, how limiting is that?

Bill Berthel: Absolutely.

Ralph Simone: One way.

Why do you think people listen to our podcasts? Because they like usBill Berthel: So I don’t want this to sound too self serving, but I want to ask you, why do you think people listen to our podcasts?

Ralph Simone: Because they like us.

Bill Berthel: I hope so.

Ralph Simone: I would like to think they listen because we answer, So what? And now what? But I think we answer it differently. I think we sometimes put things out to somebody saying what the hell are they talking about? But it gets them thinking differently.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, I agree.

Ralph Simone: And we also give them some specific how to’s. So I think it balances the both and. I mean, I think the fun for me of these podcasts is to explore things in a way that gets me thinking. And sometimes I think some of the better podcasts from my perspective have been ones that we weren’t sure where we were going.

Bill Berthel: that’s great.

Ralph Simone: But we did get there.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

So thinking about the now, what part of our podcast where we provide somewhere to start an Pragmatic experimentBill Berthel: So thinking about the now what part of our podcast where we provide somewhere to start or a pragmatic experiment to take on? What would we share with our listeners around this concept of so what now what? How can they start putting it in their work and their leadership?

Ralph Simone: So I think the so what you could answer by what’s a stretch area for you, something that you typically wouldn’t do because it’s a little too conceptual, a little too abstract. And the reason that you would want to do it is so that you could become less uncomfortable in new territory. And so that kind of answers the so what now what? Right.

Ralph Simone: The why is so that you would become less uncomfortable, but pursuing something that you wouldn’t normally pursue that puts you a little outside of your comfort level and get out of it whatever you get out of it.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: With no expectations. I mean, I think that would be one thing I would suggest.

Bill Berthel: So that might be if you’re not currently reading much, maybe it is about picking up a book that you’re truly interested in and reading that for application, not just completion, but reading that to see what you can learn and put into action for your own self.

Ralph Simone: Or watch a movie from a genre that you have never ever gotten close to. And whether it’s horror or whether it’s that would be one I haven’t gotten into. But something that you would just never watch. Or music. Same thing with music.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely.

Ralph Simone: immerse yourself in some music that you’ve never listened to and maybe that you had some resistance to and just notice how it moves you.

Bill Berthel: It’s almost a silly example, but sometimes in our household, the menu gets a little routine, a little too routine. So we look for a new recipe, something we maybe have never made ourselves before. Maybe it’s about exploring a new ingredient or something like that. And you learn from it. You get to try something different. You learn from it

Ralph Simone: Or make the meal out of whatever is in the house.

Bill Berthel: We do do that actually quite a bit.

Ralph Simone: And so the so what now, what is, is I become more resourceful.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely.

Ralph Simone: I don’t need anything other than what I have to make a positive experience. That is a huge so what now, what in my mind. It’s interesting. I don’t think I’ve ever done that, but I like the idea.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. so this really is balancing the abstract and the concrete, balancing the conceptual and the practical as a really important leadership skill to cultivate.

Ralph Simone: We need both, right? If we’re going to innovate, if we’re going to break new ground, if we’re going to invent new things, then we have to be comfortable in that abstract space. If we’re going to make a living out of it, we’ve got to turn it into something pragmatical, that’s repeatable, that pays the bills. And so both are important.

Bill Berthel: Thanks, Ralph. And folks, thanks for listening. You can listen to a new podcast two times every month here at GetEmergent, emergent, or wherever you listen to podcasts, this is where we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas. Balanced with what we hope you find are better practices that you can apply to your work and your leadership. thank you.

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Context is key. Until you understand the situation and its background, you can’t be effective as a leader or coach. With the context, you’re better prepared to ask relevant questions and share information that may be useful in helping someone move forward. Listen and learn more as Ralph and Bill discuss the importance of context.

Prefer to read the transcript?

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel: So Ralph, today we’re going to talk about another concept, another topic around leader as coach, and that is that the context matters to the coach. Context matters,

Ralph Simone: We sometimes say in our weekly planning process, context before content.

Bill Berthel: Yes.

Ralph Simone: So you really need to understand the situation and maybe even some background to the situation before you can ask great questions before you can share information that may be helpful in moving someone forward.

Bill Berthel: So this really starts with the desire to understand as a coach, as leader as coach, starting with understanding the context, the why of the client or employee, their situation, maybe what’s going on on their team, what’s going on in the organization that comes first.

Ralph Simone: Absolutely. And I think we really have to slow down to go faster. If we’re internal leader as coach. I think sometimes we don’t know as much about our people as like an outside coach may know. We spend a fair amount of time in our coaching early on in the discovery process. We want to understand significant life experiences that, cause people to think and act the way they do. That’s part of context, part of imprinting. And then how are they bringing that or not bringing that into the current challenge or situation. Really important.

Bill Berthel: Well, it’s part of our strategic approach as an external coach to start with that discovery. We have the right excuse because we’re typically starting a relationship. I think what gets in the way often, and I’ll go back to my days as being an internal coach, as an HR professional, I would assume I knew my people.

Ralph Simone: Yeah.

Bill Berthel: I’ve worked with them for lengths of time, some decades. And that assumption was there, that I knew those folks. And that assumption wasn’t necessarily wrong, but I would sometimes miss the specific situation they were in. I would rely on the experience in the relationship more than the current state.

Ralph Simone: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: More than current state. And more than how the current state might be triggering things. Their past that we’re not aware of. And I think just, one thing I can think of is we’ve talked about this in previous podcasts. Let’s release judgment. Let’s start this conversation as if I don’t know much about you.

Bill Berthel: Fresh and new. Yeah.

Ralph Simone: Beginner’s eyes. Because we bring too much preconceived information into it and then we don’t really understand the situation. We may not understand some of the organizational or team dynamics that have occurred, and therefore we won’t ask the most effective questions, or we may not share information that’s relevant. I think relevancy is the key here.

Bill Berthel: Yes.

Ralph Simone: And so we want to take enough time understanding the why, not only the why of the situation, but the why of what drives behavior of this individual in these types of situations.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, so really keying in on the context allows us to be more relevant with our questions as a coach.

Ralph Simone: Absolutely. The context matters. You could spend hours on something that’s not even that important to somebody. And one of the things that I like to ask sometimes, and this helps with context, is what’s the real challenge here for you? and that may flesh it out. And oftentimes it’s about something in their own internal development or struggle that they’re having. It has nothing to do with the situation that they presented. So I think really getting a better understanding, we can be a lot more resourceful in the way in which we support someone.

Bill Berthel: So I love about that question is it can align things sooner or align things more readily. I think part of understanding context as a coach is also watching for congruencies, gaps that need deeper discovery. A clarifying question like you just asked could help get to the bottom or get to what’s really going on.

Ralph Simone: Well, this goes back to being conscious and asking good questions. So you ask somebody a question and their language is incongruent with their body language, or their tone, like, how are you doing? All good, it’s going great. Well, there’s an incongruity there. And so we need to kind of probe that a little bit and find out what’s underneath that. And it doesn’t seem so good. Ah. So what else can you tell me? Sometimes? Tell me more is a way of getting more context. But really, the understanding, the why, why is this the challenge for you? And what is the real challenge? Is it the situation? Is it you’re thinking about the situation? Is it you don’t feel you have the skills? What’s the best way for us to proceed?

Ralph Simone: Yeah.

Bill Berthel: So that’s as fundamental as knowing where we are so we can better navigate where we need to go.

Ralph Simone: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: And it’s listening, right. For limitations. It’s listening for those beliefs, those assumptions, those interpretations that may be either contributing to the challenge or preventing the person from taking a small step forward to mitigate the challenge.

Bill Berthel: And you say listening for that. Because our belief systems show up in our language, our limitations show up in our language. We hear that in our coaching clients’ or employees’ testimonies of their situations, of their experiences, and then we’re more able to help them move forward when we understand those limitations or those beliefs in life-shaping experiences they may have had.

Ralph Simone: Language creates the context. Language is generative. So if the language is limiting, it generates limits. If it’s empowering or possibility thinking, it yields that. I’m always interested and humbled when people share their backgrounds.

Ralph Simone: But I’m also interested in how some traits cut both ways. So I’ve talked to people who have work ethic is, one of their key five strengths. And one of the things they want to work on is work-life balance. And so just even helping contextualize for them, that one of their strengths, is actually creating a problem for them.

Bill Berthel: Sure, we’ve talked about this concept of both and thinking or both and dynamics in other podcasts, but our belief systems and our experiences typically do cut both ways. So as a coach, we get to guide people around that to best utilize in their current context. In that situation, which way would it cut better? Which way to utilize it?

Ralph Simone: I just had a group of guys on group coaching yesterday, and I love to talk about taking courses, pass fail. And the reason we started talking about it is in the context of if you have limited resources and you’re trying to do everything at 100%. And I said, well, first of all, why are you trying to do everything at 100%? You need 100 in everything. And these guys talked about context. They said, no, this thing, we only need to get a C. Yeah. I said, you just described my strategy of undergraduate. I took a course every semester, almost every pass fail, I took in a course outside my major that was of interest to me, that I wanted to learn about.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: So the context, I was relaxed, I was easy, and I know I could, and some professors said, you should have taken this regular because you got an A, but I wasn’t overworking.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Ralph Simone: This is where I think people get hung up. So that’s why context matters. How much effort do you want to put into this when you’re coaching somebody? How does it fit in your priorities? How essential is it? So these are all of the things that frame I remember my brother-in-law telling me that if you get higher than a, 75 in any four parts of the CPA exam, you study too much because all you need is a 75 and no one ever sees your grade. He contextualized his effort for me. Right. It was pretty interesting. Pretty interesting.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely. In the lean manufacturing discipline, the client defines and pays for what quality is. If you overbuild the product and aren’t adding value to the client, it’s waste. It’s waste. So there could be wasted energy in our coaching. We really need to dial into the context so that’s the context of understanding the client, our employee situation, what’s going on for them and their team, what’s going on organizationally seeking, these congruencies, what’s aligned, what’s not, so we can do some deeper discovery. Listening for limitations, if there are any. For what? What are we driving towards, Ralph? What is this getting to?

Ralph Simone: Well, we’re driving towards performance. Right. We’re looking to perform in a way that we can perform again and again and again.

Bill Berthel: Love it.

Ralph Simone: I used to get in arguments with my karate instructors because they said, Give 110%. I said, well, it’s impossible, right? And the guy says, Seems like you’re taking a little easy on this exercise. I said, I am, so that I can make it through the two and a half hours. So I contextualize it for him. But I think we want to make those choices intentionally. And so part of Leader as Coach is we have to understand the context in which we’re navigating. We have to make sure that we don’t let our values or what’s important to us get in the way of understanding the situation that the particular employee is in. And I think part of our goal is to help them see the situation that they’re in. And where does it fit in the scheme of things?

Bill Berthel: I think it is I think oftentimes when we have that opportunity to coach, whether they’re external coaches like us, or whether you’re an internal coach or Leader as coach, that we get this opportunity to guide our employee or our client through reframing limitations, whether perceived or real, exist. And being able to see around those limitations towards performance and towards action is part of the job of the coach to help reframe those situations.

Ralph Simone: This gets at sometimes people spin their wheels around what and how, and this gets at their why. When we understand the context in the spirit of the client or employee’s life, we understand why it’s important to them and we help them see that and almost kind of prioritize. And then you want to calibrate your effort to the importance of the activity.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely.

Bill Berthel: So if I want to become a better coach, I’m a leader, I want to coach my people more effectively. What can I do to start dialing in to understand context?

Ralph Simone: You can certainly listen more and be intentional about background, kind, of telling people to explain things that they think are relevant to the challenge at hand. I think you can also bring up the topic of pass fail. Do you need to get an A in this, or is it enough just to pass? Help to get people thinking about context from that perspective? It’s amazing, though. we coach a lot of high achievers. I don’t even think they thought pass fail was an option. Right. And it’s a belief system. I got to get an A in everything. Why?

Ralph Simone: Right.

Ralph Simone: And so you begin to allow people to look at it perhaps from a different perspective. I never constrained myself with that need to get an A in everything. It required too much effort. It required too much effort.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Bill Berthel: Which, depending upon the context, it could be waste.

Ralph Simone: Outside my major, it was. Outside my major, it was.

Bill Berthel: Awesome. Thank you. Hey, folks, and thanks for listening. To learn more about our offering Leader as Coach, please visit www.getemergent.com/leaderascoach. Thank you.

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The first step to making a connection as a coach is building trust. There are several ways to accomplish this, including being fully present and focused, being genuinely curious, and using basic rapport-building tactics. Listen to learn practical techniques to establish a coaching connection and optimize your leadership skills.

Prefer to read the transcript?

Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast, where we discuss leadership, team and organizational topics and best practices. We like to provide ideas, concepts, and pragmatic experiments to help you develop your potential in your work and your leadership. I’m Bill Berthel

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel: So Ralph, today we’re going to talk about making the coaching connection. Continuing this series around being a coach in your leadership leader. As coach, we know that making an, important connection with the people we’re coaching is a vital part. What does it mean to make a connection?

Ralph Simone: This is actually a favorite topic of mine. In fact, it’s one of the things that I think it’s one of my few natural gifts, is my ability to make a connection. And I think it’s making a connection at a deeper, I’m almost going to say a soul level. It’s not just connecting intellectually, which is important, but it’s also connecting emotionally. It’s connecting with the person. It’s seeing the person right in front of you. I mean, one of the reasons people respond to coaching is sometimes they don’t feel like they’re being seen or heard, or whatever is going on. And so I think making that connection is really forming a bond of trust so that they trust that you’re sincerely and genuinely interested in whatever they’re dealing with and are interested in helping guide them through it. Not own it, not take it, but guide them through it.

Bill Berthel: So, trust, we know that, I think it was Covey that said it’s the glue that holds all relationships together. But trust is a pretty complex thing. How do we build trust in this making of a connection?

Ralph Simone: It’s an interesting question, but I think it’s part of holding the space. I think it’s part of how we show up. I think it’s maybe overused, but it’s really about being fully present. This is where, for me, one of the ways that I ensure I make the connection is I ground myself before any coaching conversation. I clear myself of any things that may be distracting for me as much as I can. It’s like akin to going into the dojo. When you go into a dojo to train for karate, you remove your shoes at the door and that’s symbolic for leaving your problems and experiences of the day behind so that you can be fully focused in the next hour of training. And I think for me, that’s how we make the connection. That’s how we build the trust.

Bill Berthel: So I love that physical reminder of taking our shoes off. What do you do to get yourself ready when you’re coaching to be fully present?

Ralph Simone: I actually clear my space and, so particularly if it’s a Zoom meeting or if it’s a phone call, I clear my space of anything that might distract me. I’ll take a couple of deep breaths and I’ll just kind of get quiet. And if there is something going on, I gently acknowledge it so that I can release it, so that I can be as focused as possible. And I sometimes even will say to a client or an employee, let’s just take a moment, let’s both of us pause, and let’s set an intention for this conversation together and how we both need to show up for it to achieve the outcome that you’re looking for.

Bill Berthel: I, love setting that intention with someone that’s powerful.

Ralph Simone: Well, I think to make that connection, what we have to remember is most of us are still connected to what we just left.

Bill Berthel: Right.

Ralph Simone: And the challenge of making a connection with somebody who’s now in front of us is they’re still connected to where they were.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: So it’s this intentional way of breaking that connection to make the new connection.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. Resetting it. I love that. What else do you do to build trust in a, coaching relationship?

Ralph Simone: This is a challenge from another one of my gifts, which is not a positive one, is I’m quick to figure things out or to judge or to have an opinion. And so I work really hard on releasing and operating without judgment by being more curious. Just to be curious about I’m wondering why they’re processing it that way, or wondering why they said it that way, and really genuinely curious about it, as opposed to, judging it. And I think that’s critical because I think people sense the judgment. I think they feel that, you don’t have to say, oh, that was a stupid idea, or Why would you do that? They can sense if you’re really holding that space. And this really comes back to consciousness kind of recognizing when I go to judgment, I think I’m trying too hard to help, as opposed to allowing it to unfold at the pace and speed of the client by holding the space, asking the question. I wrote a note to myself yesterday. I said I clear my area, but I let her talk was on my pad because there was a client who does really good job of just talking herself through things, until I interrupt it with some brilliant question. And so I reminded myself to let her talk. When she’s done talking, she’ll signal.

Bill Berthel: That’s really just a form of holding that space for your coaching client.

Ralph Simone: It is, and it builds rapport. And I think it’s really about being present enough to kind of match and mirror the pace. If they don’t need a lot of questions and they’re processing it and they’re moving, why interrupt that flow, right? This is kind of funny, but unrelated. I was buying, a car years ago, a Jeep. And, we’re in the showroom, and the guy says, well, do you know anybody who works at Chrysler? Well, we’re going to take some money off, and then we got a special promotion going. And the numbers keep getting lower and lower. And he goes, aren’t you going to say anything? And I said, Why would I interrupt the flow?

Bill Berthel: Why would I stop you? You’re going in the right direction.

Ralph Simone: And I think part of making the connection is not interrupting the flow. it’s allowing the flow to continue in some cases. it’s honoring silence.

Bill Berthel: That’s tricky, right, that space of silence.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. Because we need to be doing something right as opposed to just being. And I think part of making the connection is more about who you’re being in that moment, less about what you’re doing. There are things you can do to help you be more present. But I think that’s the key. And I do think there’s some basic rapport building. Pay attention to the style of the person, the language that they use. Are they visual or auditory or kinesthetic? Match that. For example, if somebody says, do you see what I mean there? And you say, I see it clearly, that’s a match. Right. Or how does that sound to you? It’s ringing true.

Bill Berthel: Yes.

Ralph Simone: Or how does it feel? It fits like a glove. So you want to match language. You want to match pace. Sometimes you’re going to have to pick it up a notch, because when you mirror and match, you are then allowed to lead, in some cases by asking questions that might lead to other things. So this making a connection has a lot of tentacles to it.

Bill Berthel: It does have a lot of tentacles, but I like how you just shared that making the connection then allows us to lead. This is very purposeful connection. It’s not just simply to be connected, but there are outcomes to being connected as a leader, as coach.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. So we can ask the question that helps the person see possibilities, or we can help shift the energy because they now trust us and they will allow us to guide them, to looking at it from a slightly different perspective. Or there’s enough trust that they might be open to us sharing from our experience, recognizing that it’s not their experience, but it could be something that creates an opening for them in their next course of action.

Bill Berthel: And I think leaders as coaches or coaches, that are internal in their organization a little different than you and I, Ralph, as we’re typically hired outside of the organization, are working to drive that person towards some type of action. And this connection is that fertile ground. Even if it’s an experiment, if it’s a specific direction or action to go towards, this is that fertile ground for that activity?

Ralph Simone: Absolutely. I think the role as an internal coach, leader as coach, is harder, I think, too. It’s harder because they are more attached to the outcome and therefore more important to make the connection, so that perhaps they can share content, maybe sooner in the process. But this connection, this trust is critical. I mean, when you build that, we have examples of that. I think we have high trust with most of the people we work with. And in some cases, they will actually engage us to do things that we’re really not even trained to do. Because there’s a high trust. And that high trust allows you some room to navigate. And I think it’s extending trust, right? It’s extending trust to the person that you’re working with, knowing that they will, do what they need to do.

Bill Berthel: It really is. And I know you’ve had many experiences like this as well, but there’s just something, I don’t know, amazing. Getting to witness someone growing or moving into their potential while having this connection with them. It’s not just the soft, nice stuff, but it’s actually seeing results. And as a leader, as coach, getting to witness and support your people, making that kind of movement in their work, in their lives, I don’t know, that’s a pretty cool place to sit and be a witness and an observer and a guide.

Ralph Simone: It’s extremely inspiring invigorating and engaging. And when you have made that connection and built the trust, people will tell you anything and everything. And why is that relevant? Because those are the things that either motivate them or are getting in their way of performance as a leader there is nothing more important to know. What is it that’s really driving this person to perform at this high level? What is getting in the way of them stepping further into their potential? As a leader there is no more important information than that. And that information flows when we have made the connection and built the trust in a relationship.

Bill Berthel: So, Ralph, for our listeners that are working on this space of coaching, or they’re more interested in being the coach that leads, what steps could they take?

Ralph Simone: Clear your mind. Release judgment. Be present. Work on being present. And so this ties back to consciousness. Know when you get distracted. Know some of your tendencies so that you can notice them and release them and bring your attention back to focus. There is no better way to make a connection than giving someone your full and undivided attention. No better way.

Bill Berthel: Beautiful. Thank you.

Ralph Simone: Thank you, Bill.

Bill Berthel: Hey, folks, thanks for listening. And to learn more about our offering Leader as Coach, please visit getemergent.com/leaderascoach. Thank you.

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To be an effective coach, it’s often necessary to share content with team members. But the ability to share content well has two prerequisites – deep listening and intelligent questioning.Bill and Ralph discuss the concept and offer tips on how to hone your own listening and questioning skills and enhance your leadership.

Prefer to read the transcript?

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel: So, Ralph, as, another part of our series in talking about this coaching space for leaders, leaders as coach, coaches get to share content. They get to share some of their expertise. Sometimes it comes out as advice. This is really important for coaches to have some content to share.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. And this is interesting for me. So my early career, I was a consultant, a subject matter expert.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: And I love sharing my expertise. But the balancing act here, as we’ve been trained as coaches, is how do you strike the right balance between sharing what you know and drawing out of your client what he or she knows? So I think this is a stumbling block for professional coaches as well as leaders as coach.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. No, I think so, too. And one of the biggest barriers to effective coaching is projecting too much of our experience, too much of our know how, too much of our subject matter expertise onto the person we’re coaching, whether that be our employee or our client. I think this type of projection, at best, can be received as advice that might get acted upon. But I think we miss that opportunity to really connect, grow the client, draw out their ideas, their best, and even worse as a leader. I think we might start to build a dependency on our advice.

Ralph Simone: This links back then to consciousness

Bill Berthel: very much,

Ralph Simone: kind of being aware. Are we sharing too much too soon? Are we projecting our experiences or solution on, before we fully understand?

Ralph Simone: So let’s talk about, for the benefit of our listeners, how we strike that balance of sharing content as a coach.

Bill Berthel: So I think if we’re able to hold on to sharing that knowledge or expertise as a coach, as not first place, deep listening and intelligent questioning long before projecting our own brilliance, our own advice, our own subject matter expertise that I think we all like to share, by the way. I think we do. Yeah. We like to share that.

Ralph Simone: It’s validating. We want to make a contribution. But what I heard you say in that is understand the challenge or the problem or the opportunity at hand before you prematurely dispense information that may or may not be useful. And I think there’s another thing that a leader and a coach needs to be mindful of. You have a position of maybe expertise or authority that people might be more inclined to pay attention to what you say. So the timing of what and when you say it is important.

Bill Berthel: The timing is very important. And just to your point, the authority, the position, the role that you play, and perhaps your level of subject matter expertise or sometimes your long term service in the industry or that organization puts you in that kind of authority position. But, really taking the time to connect through. I think it’s a dance. I think it’s both/and of questions and listening. It’s going back and forth between asking I’m going to call them intelligent questions and I think we can characterize them better than that here today. And then listening, deep listening to those questions you might be asking.

Ralph Simone: So it sounds like a way to avoid projecting or offering your perspective too early is by starting by asking open ended, empowering questions. Questions that would get the employee, the client, the direct report to think and perhaps think differently or think more broadly about whatever they’re wrestling with.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, that’s exactly it. So as most of us know, open questions are those questions that are difficult to answer yes or no to. They stay open in the way that they require a little bit of processing, a little bit more depth in the answer. We, can answer probably any question yes or no to. But open questions are difficult to answer yes or no to. I think open questions are also questions that we are open to hearing, listening to almost any answer. Right? So that requires us to reduce the expected answer or reduce our judgment, perhaps.

Ralph Simone: So if I’m interpreting that correctly, it’s only an open question if we’re open to the answer,

Bill Berthel: I think, so

Ralph Simone: that we receive. I think that’s beautiful when you talk about the difference, open and close and people intellectually say, no kidding, right? You’re going to spend time on this. But I remember an experience when I was conducting coaching clinics for a large Fortune 100 company, teaching leaders to be coaches. This is exactly the topic we’re talking about. And we videotaped, right? Because the video doesn’t lie, right? Oh, how hard can it be? And almost invariably to a person, the number of closed questions they asked to open was far more. Do you have a plan? Are you excited about it? And it really took that watching the video to shift their consciousness that they were in a pattern because they want to net things out. They want to get to the bottom line quickly of asking almost exclusively closed questions.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, that doesn’t surprise me. And, you’re hitting right on it. It is about the pressure of time. Most of us have been educated and trained to be either consciously or subconsciously, really good at reductive reasoning. And reductive reasoning gets us down to typically two choices yes, no, good, bad, right, wrong. So, our language is formed that way. So we ask a lot of closed questions. It’d be a fun experiment. I don’t know that everybody wants to record themselves, but just pay attention. Pay attention to the questions you ask through the day.

Ralph Simone: I think it’s important if you’re going to shift your consciousness and be more mindful of what your pattern behavior truly is. I mean, asking the question of how are you? People want to hear good or fine. They don’t want you to describe the last three or four days, how you’ve been struggling. Right. I think it’s an interesting right. That’s not an open question because you’re really not open for the answer at that point. You want people to say, Yep, good. Boom, move on.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely.

Ralph Simone: And as a coach, we have to be ready for anything and everything.

Bill Berthel: We do we do.

Bill Berthel: And Ralph, you qualified. Questioning another way just earlier that I want to go back to that I think is equally as important as being open is coaches ask empowering questions. And an empowering question puts the possibility, the potential, it puts the idea, the ownership kind of in the hands or in the lap of that person we’re talking with. So it makes it more possible for that person or puts that person into action.

Ralph Simone: Yeah, I think, a well framed empowering question shifts energy.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. I love that.

Ralph Simone: It connects to possibility. I mean, I have this right on my desk. I ask it often. What would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail? And so now we’re putting all kinds of possibilities out there for people to consider, and it almost doesn’t matter where they land, because if they’re open to the possibility of something different, that’s movement.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. The other thing an empowering question does is takes us off the hook of providing our expertise, because we’re really putting the focus on that other individual, not what we think should be done or what we know could be done from our past experience or our knowledge. Really takes us off that hook of becoming that advice monster.

Ralph Simone: So pay attention to how hard you’re working. If you’re coaching somebody, and if you’re carrying the load of offering too many ideas.

Bill Berthel: There you go.

Ralph Simone: Or the pressure to get to some solution, then you’re probably not sharing content appropriately. You’ve taken on too much.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely.

Ralph Simone: Let’s, talk a little bit about something that seems to trip a lot of folks up in the listening area. Is this idea of acknowledging and validating. We’re practiced in it. I think we’re fairly accomplished with it most of the time. But people seem to struggle with understanding, first what it is, and then secondly, how to do it. How would we help our listeners with acknowledging and validating?

Bill Berthel: Yeah. So acknowledging is the intention of the acknowledgment is so that person feels heard and understood. And I think it can be as simple as mirroring what was said, not parroting. Nobody wants to hear that. It’s not about recording back exactly what they said. It’s an ability to acknowledge the topic or the content that they’re talking about. And then validating is really about connecting with that person’s senses or feelings or emotions around that, and we can validate that. Now, here’s where I think a few things is why people get tripped up in this one. I know where I screw up all the time is when I’m more emotionally invested. I tend to acknowledge and validate less ironically, where it would work better. But I think also where we agree or disagree with people. it’s really challenging at times to acknowledge and validate someone that we disagree with. Now, it’s not impossible. Acknowledgment and validation does not require agreement.

Ralph Simone: So it’s important for us to be objective, as objective as possible, to be as neutral as possible. And part of doing that is to be conscious. Right?

Ralph Simone: To be aware of where you might be too emotionally invested. It reminds me, though, the benefit of acknowledging and validating this was a I’ll try to quote it, but it might be a paraphrase from Stephen Covey. When we allow the feeling life, it dies naturally.

Bill Berthel: Yeah.

Ralph Simone: When we deny the feeling life, it struggles for birth. And so what we’re trying to do is allow people to let the emotion go so that they can explore possibilities.

Bill Berthel: It’s exactly that. It’s part of the processing that’s there. It’s both sides of that. If we agree or disagree while we’re trying to acknowledge and validate, we’re not actually acknowledging and validating. The acknowledgment is simply paraphrasing back and saying, I hear you. And the validation is you’ve got every right to feel that way. Or I can understand why that frustrated you. Or oh, it seems you’re excited about that.

Ralph Simone: I had a guy recently, talk about he said it’s more than frustrating. I don’t seem like I’m recognized in the organization. And I said, based on how you described it, it’s understandable why you would feel the way you do and why you would be considering other options. I wasn’t making them right. Wrong. I didn’t have a horse in the race, but I was making it from the way he described it okay to feel that way. That allowed us to move on. But I am curious. I think I do pretty well. But then, periodically I’ll get hooked because I fancy myself as a guy who knows a lot of stuff and can be helpful. I want to at some point after I’ve done all this brilliant listening and acknowledging and validating. And I, want to offer my perspective because I think it would be helpful. What do I need to watch out for? I mean, how do I manage not giving too much too soon?

Bill Berthel: I think there’s a few ways, too, that I think we both work with in our coaching. And I give a shout out to our business partner, Cathy Gaynor. I think she’s absolutely professional on softening the advice. Softening the advice could, look like, you know you’ve probably already thought of this, but what do you think about XYZ, the piece of advice? Softening it gives it that onramp to be received a little bit more readily. it also makes us more relatable we’re not just showing up as I’m the guy who just asked you a bunch of questions, listen to you and I’m going to come around and smack you with my piece of advice. No. We’re building that nice on ramp to that piece of advice or direction. I think whether we’re coaching or leading softening that is influential.

Ralph Simone: Maybe it’s that we’re offering information for consideration, recognizing that it can’t be the full solution. One of the things I think a few things I did very well as a parent is when my kids asked me a question, I rarely gave them a definitive answer.

Bill Berthel: There you go. Yeah.

Ralph Simone: They’d say, Well, dad, how do you do this? I’d say, Well, I can share a way to do it, but that’s one of many ways. How else do you think you could? Because I think that’s the empowering piece because I always saw my role as a parent as getting them to think about these things from their own perspective, how they would solve it. And I think the other thing we sometimes, in addition to what you shared that Cathy does, is just asking for permission. Would you mind if I shared some information to you that may be helpful in this situation?

Bill Berthel: It’s actually the place for a closed question. You want to hear yes or no to that, right? It’s the closed exploratory question. Can I share a piece of advice with you? hey, I’ve had a similar experience in the past and it really worked for me. Can I share that with you? We want to hear no because then we need to listen more. There’s something we’ve missed or we want to hear yes because then we’re on ramp to providing that advice and probably being more influential with that.

Ralph Simone: And I think if you’re in the moment more conscious, more aware, you can tell that you’re starting to share too much content as a coach or not enough. I mean, sometimes people want your perspective and if you keep asking them questions, they’re going to become impatient because you’re not sharing some content with them. So I think pay attention. If you’re in the moment, I think you can discern what’s needed next.

Bill Berthel: I think you can, we’re going to talk about making the connection in another podcast as a coach. But I think when you have the trust really high, the person you’re coaching will even ask you. They’ll even say, come on, I’m ready for the piece of advice. What would you do? That’s as much permission as you need.

Ralph Simone: As you were talking about making the connection. And I know we’ll talk about that in more detail in a, future podcast.

Ralph Simone: One way not to make the connection I think is leading with too much advice. I call it leading with your chin because then I think people start to want to make you wrong or incorrect. Right. And you don’t create, if anything, you create disconnection by leading with your expertise too quickly in a coaching conversation.

Bill Berthel: So I love leading with your chin. Jonathan Height in the righteous mind calls that leading with your righteous mind. He says it’s the best way to start a debate or an argument. So I don’t think that’s what we’re doing as coaches.

Ralph Simone: No, I think we’re trying to help people see their situation more clearly and help them see a path forward.

Bill Berthel: Hey, folks, thanks for listening. To learn more about our offering Leader as Coach, please visit getemergent.com/leader-as-coach.co, Thank you.

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In your leadership, it’s important to become highly self-aware – understanding and acknowledging how you “show up,” how your demeanor or behavior impacts others, and being able to adapt your approach to the situation. Then you’re better able to achieve the full promise of leadership – coaching others. In this episode, Bill and Ralph discuss consciousness and suggest practices that will help you sharpen your self-awareness.

Prefer to read the transcript?

Bill Berthel:

Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast where we discuss leadership team and organizational topics and best practices. We like to provide ideas, concepts, and pragmatic experiments to help you develop your potential in your work and leadership. I’m Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone:

And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel:

So Ralph, we’re going to be talking about, we’re going to have a series of four or so podcasts that really support this concept of leader as coach, the coaching modality in leadership. Love it. And today we want to talk about consciousness and coaching.

Ralph Simone:

I mean, that’s kind of a fancy word that I think it’s bantered about by people like ourselves, other coaching professionals. What do we mean when we talk about consciousness? And then specifically in coaching,

Bill Berthel:

I can get really distracted in this space with consciousness theory. There are two prevailing theories being discussed philosophically because so far science, Ralph is far, far behind in answering where consciousness comes from. This becomes an interesting philosophical debate, whether consciousness is a fundamental dynamic of the universe. This gets heavy, or if consciousness is an emergent property derived from physical stuff happening, atoms, chemicals, energy, having an experience. And I think this matters. This isn’t just philosophy because as leaders we need to know how to connect to our source of consciousness, so it matters where this comes from for ourselves, whichever might be true fundamentalism, materialism of emergent properties. By the way, I like the emergent properties idea. Of course, that’s our brand, right? What’s most important is that we connect to our consciousness that we become highly self-aware, very aware of.

Ralph Simone:

So that was coming up for me. If we could use the word awareness for the purpose of this conversation almost interchangeably, because we want to be aware of ourselves.

Bill Berthel:

I think so, yes.

Ralph Simone:

The things that motivate us, the things that make us impatient, the things that trigger us.

Bill Berthel:

I think so, yes.

Ralph Simone:

But it goes beyond just our own.

Bill Berthel:

It does, especially in this context of leadership and coaching. We do need to be in touch with our own self-awareness, and I think it starts there, but we also need to be socially aware of the people or the person we’re leading or coaching. We need to be able to dial into what are their feelings, their thoughts, their senses, their thought processes, what’s going on with them. Now we cannot have their experience. I’m not suggesting that, but we need to be able to dial in and relate to an awareness of their being.

Ralph Simone:

Bill, I’m curious about what we would say about the leader, and you and I have both interacted with the leader that says, I am a driven guy who is impatient and I’m totally aware of that. Would we describe that as someone demonstrating high levels of consciousness?

Bill Berthel:

I think they’re demonstrating their current consciousness. I think that’s fair. Now I think Ralph, I think the question you’re really asking there is depending upon the situation of the context, will that be effective in their leadership? And probably not most of the time if they’re operating at warp speed, that might have them very successful in many ways. I think there’s a pretty solid chance they’re missing some opportunities.

Ralph Simone:

And maybe I was setting you up for

Bill Berthel:

The No, it’s good. It’s good

Ralph Simone:

Because I think it’s this being aware or conscious of how you are not only showing up yourself, but how you’re affecting the environment

Bill Berthel:

Absolutely.

Ralph Simone:

By which you show up. I was reminded, and I may have shared this story with you before, but when my son was younger, he used to come along with me to a lot of different things. And I think sometimes you do need a coach or you do need someone who can give you feedback to help your consciousness expand so that you can actually be aware of how you’re showing up. And it’s kind of a funny story, but we had a retail situation where I wasn’t very happy with the outcome, and after it was settled and we were back in the car driving home, he said, dad, do you ever hear how you sound? Yes. And of course I said, you mean when I’m on the radio or podcasts? He goes, no, no. Have you ever listened to how you sound when you’re unhappy with someone or something? And I was kind of taken aback. He goes, you don’t sound like someone that I would be interested in helping 10 years old. I’m in the business of raising people’s consciousness. But it was at that moment that I was missing something and I was missing a pattern behavior, and I wasn’t being aware of how it was not only impacting me, but how it was impacting the situation.

Bill Berthel:

That was brilliant. Coaching on your son’s part, no matter what his age, I believe we can find coaches all around us if we’re open to it. I know that, or at least I think that a mirror as a material object probably doesn’t have consciousness, but I think it’s a great analogy. Coaches, leaders that can I say slow things up, but I think it’s slowing down to go faster. They can slow us down. Whatever comes into the view of the mirror is reflected more accurately. That is a form of awareness and consciousness. Good coaches do that just as your son did in that moment. He was able to act as a mirror for you. It’s a brilliant form of consciousness.

Ralph Simone:

And so is part of consciousness, this ability to self-serve, cultivate the witness in ourselves, to observe ourselves real time and to adjust based on whether how we’re showing up is resourceful or not to the situation.

Bill Berthel:

I think that adjustment is that second step after that self-reflection or that self-awareness and reflection. That adjustment usually involves a few things. One, it’s a conscious adjustment for purpose. It’s not just simply being agile or flexible in the moment. It’s purposeful when we’re a leader. As coach, we’re typically interested in guiding someone or assisting someone to find more purposeful action or reframe something to make something possible. And so it’s a very purposeful adjustment. I think one of the most important things we do as leader, as coach, and something maybe that really fast processing leader misses the opportunity to do is suspend their judgment in that moment. I think really good coaches are not at judgment. They’re completely available to the person or people that they’re leading in coaching. And so part of that adjustment is also suspending that judgment to be fully present to assist in the coaching of that person.

Ralph Simone:

I love that. I think we would suggest as a way to suspend that judgment to get curious.

Bill Berthel:

I love that.

Ralph Simone:

And I think it’s this idea of slowing down enough to suspend that judgment, to ask the question, what could be being communicated here? What else could be going on? And I know we often talk about this idea of trusting your higher coach. I’m assuming that we mean to trust your higher consciousness.

Bill Berthel:

It really is what that is. Trusting your higher coach is perhaps a term that does kind of get tossed around in our industry a bit. But it is connecting to your higher consciousness, the higher level of awareness that’s available, not just in yourself, but by being conscious and aware of the individuals around you and that situation because the context of the situation matters. We’re going to dive deeper into context in a future podcast, but that’s a third element of awareness that really matters in the effective coaching because not every situation is equitable or the same.

Ralph Simone:

So if I wanted to be a coach in my organization and I wanted to be really effective at it, what suggestions would you have for me to raise my consciousness, my awareness?

Bill Berthel:

So I think it sounds like a broken record sometimes in our industry, but it starts with self-awareness. It really does. The reason it’s a broken record is because it’s true. Take those opportunities to really slow down to go faster and have reflection opportunities through the day. You might do some self-coaching by asking yourself, how am I showing up? How am I being received? What am I thinking? What am I feeling in these moments? So I think that self-reflection is first step for self-awareness.

Ralph Simone:

We often talk about the strategic pause. Love it. Is that a place for this self-reflection to take place?

Bill Berthel:

Yeah, I think it is. I think we can take that strategic pause in real time and check in with ourselves. Just check in. What am I thinking? What am I feeling? What am I sensing? I think we can do it very strategically in reflective moments through the day. Maybe it’s we have to figure out what works for us, but maybe it’s some morning break or at noon near lunch or something like that that we can intentionally set aside a few moments. This does not have to be a big chunk of time, a few moments just to check in with self. I think we can do that through journaling. That’s a fancy word for note taking. It’s just a way to self-reflect. Right? Just journal about that and just check in with ourselves.

Ralph Simone:

I was actually smiling when you said journaling. I’ve gone back and reread journals from 10 years ago. I just started this practice last week. I read about it and I read a note about how I needed to be more patient with my daughter, Sophie. This is 10 years ago. And I noticed through my journaling, there were recurring themes about being more patient. She’s such a sweet kid. She’s only trying to please, so I noticed this impatience I had with her. And so I’ve been very mindful and intentional. Now 23 years later, she sends me a text just yesterday, which I was so proud of, and I am actually going to bring it up right now because

Bill Berthel:

Awesome. Please, please do.

Ralph Simone:

It was a reflection of becoming more conscious of my interactions with her and intentionally changing. You are very nice to me. And it was a little emoji, but I believe it was triggered from my journaling practice 10 years ago and my intention of showing up differently. But the journaling helped me become aware of my pattern behavior and it was a really nice gift,

Bill Berthel:

Ralph. That’s beautiful. And I’m glad you shared that. I think you’re bringing up an incredibly important element here to talk about that it is a practice. This isn’t a switch we turn on and stays on. It is a continual practice. So allow ourselves that space for grace, that time to keep practicing what we’re becoming more aware of. The second thing I think you really dialed into there, which I appreciate is compassion. The opening of awareness, the higher levels of consciousness allow us to be more compassionate leaders and coaches. And what that really means is our empathy and understanding of others is put into action. Compassion isn’t a soft thing, it’s action oriented. I think we sometimes think, oh, compassion’s, huggy, feely. It’s our empathy in action. As leaders, I believe most of the people that are working with us or following us expect us to be in action with them. And when we do that, through our understanding, that’s compassion.

Ralph Simone:

Wow, love it. What other practices would we suggest to our listeners as a way of becoming more conscious or more aware or more awake, whatever word we want to use.

Bill Berthel:

So open ourselves to those coaches that are already around us. Like your example with your son. I’ve had examples like that in my life with people around me, my son as a young tot in the backseat of the car, noticing my behaviors and being able to point out to me in a really delicate way how I was actually operating outside of my own values. We have those coaches all around us. There are coworkers. There’re our family members, there’re people in our communities. Hopefully we’ve got cool neighbors that are potential coaches. Without that title in your life, pay attention to the coaches around you and accept that coaching.

Ralph Simone:

I love that. How would meditation and or mindfulness help people become more conscious in their coaching?

Bill Berthel:

So I think that’s a great topic, and we both know that. We hear sometimes the feedback, well, I can’t meditate. I don’t meditate well, and I’m even guilty of saying that myself. I think stillness practices, creating those opportunities in our day where just for a few minutes at first we can build up more time to really create that reset. It’s a counterbalance to all of the, I call it the on and the go activities through the day. Those stillness practices, that could be meditation, it could look more like prayer for some people, it can be stillness, creates that counterbalance of what we’re typically not doing through the rest of the day. We’re constantly go, go, go, go.

Ralph Simone:

And perhaps an easier door opening to that is to just do a little body scanning, tie it to physical, pay attention to sensations in your body, and then if you want, move it to thoughts and emotions and feelings because like the stock exchange, we have this average emotional energy that’s changing throughout the day. And the more we can become in tune to that, the more able we are to manage ourselves and other situations.

Bill Berthel:

I love that. And that’s a fabulous way of being much more self-aware as well in that body scan practice as a meditation or as a stillness practice.

Ralph Simone:

The other one that I think is real simple is mindful walking. When you just notice how your foot strikes the ground, you become more present, you become more conscious, and I think you take in more of what’s really going on. We want to get out of our head long enough to be aware of what’s happening and to make a connection around what’s next.

Bill Berthel:

So I love that. And mindful walking is actually one that personally works for me. So that resonates. When my son was really little, we would just sometimes go out in the yard, sit down, close our eyes, and just do a listening tour of what was around us, right? You dial in to different sensibilities. It’s a way of slowing things down that then makes the rest of our day more connected. It’s not just simply slowing down.

Ralph Simone:

Well, and it sounds like it’s tuning into more of what’s actually going on.

Bill Berthel:

That’s It.

Ralph Simone:

And when we are fully conscious, we can be aware of self, others situation, the environment, and we have a much better chance of guiding and supporting people towards wherever they’re trying to get.

Bill Berthel:

So Ralph, I love how we reframed that big word of consciousness to be equitable with awareness. And that leaders as coaches in their leadership, as they’re driving people to purposeful action through every day, have an opportunity to become more and more conscious.

Hey folks, thanks for listening. And to learn more about our offering, leader as coach, please visit www.getemergent.com/leader-as-coach. Thank you.

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Leaders need good leadership coaches, but can also act as coaches for their team. Doing so can improve organizational performance, engagement, culture, and morale. What key techniques should you employ to act as an effective coach? Listen in as Bill and Ralph discuss.

Prefer to read the transcript?

Bill Berthel:

Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. Our podcast is focused on individual team and organizational development and performance. We focus on topics such as leadership, human development, raising consciousness, and awareness. We aim to provide creative concepts, new ideas and pragmatic tips and practices for leaders in all walks of life. I’m Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone:

And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel:

And today we’re going to revisit a podcast we originally released in the spring of 2023 called Leader as Coach. We’re putting this out again as a lead to a small series of podcasts on this topic, Leader as Coach.

Ralph Simone:

And I hope that doesn’t put us out of business, but what do we mean by this idea of leader as Coach Bill?

Bill Berthel:

Yeah, yeah. No, I love that challenge of putting us out of business. I think that’s actually part of our mission is that if we were no longer needed, the leadership in every organization would be reaching their potential. But let’s talk about this coaching modality, right? What coaching is to begin with leaders who coach really aren’t too different we think than athletic coaches. They’re capable and regularly practice highly directive and highly supportive leadership behaviors. We got to talk about what that looks like, Ralph, and I know you’ve got a lot to contribute to today’s conversation. Directive behaviors. Directive behaviors.

Ralph Simone:

I think people are hesitant just because of the word to tell people what’s needed, why it’s important to the organization and when it’s needed by just you use the example of a sports coach. Those things are all very clear and in some cases how to do it. In some cases, our role is to instruct people, and I was kind of laughing when we first started because I remember when I first added coaching to my business 20 years ago, my father wanted to know what sport,

Bill Berthel:

Right? Exactly.

Ralph Simone:

But it is the sport of corporate performance. And I think that while there are some differences, if we really looked at the leader coach model from the world of sports, I think both our performance and our consciousness would increase significantly. Would you agree?

Bill Berthel:

No, I love it. I love it. I think when clarity, when structure, maybe fundamentals and direction is needed, a good leader coach doesn’t hesitate and they know just the right amount to dial in the right amount of direction too much, and you’re that micromanager. I think that’s some of the hesitation. We don’t want to micromanage. We don’t want to over control too little. You’re causing unnecessary ambiguity and confusion.

Ralph Simone:

We want to find the sweet spot and I think we find the sweet spot through experimentation, but what you can’t do is not do it. Now, we talked about directive, but you used another word leader as coach, supportive. And what do we mean by supportive behavior?

Bill Berthel:

Yeah, so supportive behavior. So 87% of American workforce is moderately to highly capable, meaning their skills, their knowledge, their abilities are proficient or better. However, their commitment to the tasks at hand are moderately to highly variable. And this shouldn’t be a surprise to the vast majority of our listeners actually, Ralph, us too. We’re not immune to this. 87% of us are on a commitment variability, meaning it can be up and down. That variability and commitment is caused by many, many things, personal and professional challenges, mental and physical health, family and coworkers. Matter of fact, new data coming from Forbes just published by Forbes Magazine last month suggests that for almost 70% of the people, their manager has more impact on their mental health than their therapist or their doctor. And it’s equal to the impact of their partner. So if you’re a leader, your impact on people’s commitment is significant, is really significant.

Ralph Simone:

That changes the willingness of a lot of people wanting to be leaders because it’s a really important job. Really important. I was thinking about this variable commitment. I mean, I’m more engaged, I’m more committed if I am interested in it. Absolutely. I know the running joke in our firm is that I don’t do anything that I’m not interested in, and my reply is what’s wrong with that? Because I think part of it is the stuff I do, I’m extremely engaged in and I think that my commitment is higher. But I think what we’re saying is leader as coach has to recognize this mix of competence and commitment and use these directive and supportive behaviors to get the most out of those that he or she leads.

Bill Berthel:

Absolutely. So leader as coach on that supportive side, first, you’re available and working remotely is not an excuse for not being available. I’m sorry if I think if I’ve had a nickel for every time I’ve heard that I’d be an incredibly rich man. Remote relationships present some unique challenges. However, connecting through technology for work is roughly equivalent to connecting in person. The research shows if we’re intentional about utilizing the tech to connect, right? And after being available and making those connections leaders support by asking essential questions that are empowering and open, what a great way to be supportive.

Ralph Simone:

I think this is something that we all can get better at. And I just heard when working with a client yesterday, she was quizzing her c e o as to what she needed to get better at, and he said asking questions that lead to insight and understanding. I love that. So if you think about that from an athletic coach or a corporate coach, a leader, when we ask those questions, somebody gets insights, a different way of doing it, a more effective way of doing it, and they understand why. So they connect the dots. Now you’ve got engagement, now you’ve got commitment, and then the focus can be on constant improvement.

Bill Berthel:

Love that, love that supportive behavior also looks like, well, I think it’s what the obvious might be in support is we create as coaches, as leaders, we create that caring connection. We personalize and humanize the relationship appropriately of course, but we don’t have to have a best friend at work, but we demonstrate genuine sense of care and connection. I was coaching a young leader recently, and this exact topic came up in one of our conversations and he asked me, so what if I really don’t care, he wasn’t being mean, but he wanted to be authentic, he wanted to be genuine. And I asked him how he might start thinking about a caring practice. What type of connection would he be interested in? And that reframing question, right turn the what might look impossible to possible. He found himself resisting at first, right? This isn’t a Goldilocks kind of story, but leaning into the idea, he intentionally started creating, connecting conversations by asking how his employee’s, hobbies were developing, how their kids were doing in school or dance, how their spouse was enjoying their new vehicle stuff that he could connect to. And he said he came back and said, this is really making a difference in my leadership. And when we get to talk about work, it’s a natural flow into that and there’s more engagement. People are leaning in instead of being a little apprehensive.

Ralph Simone:

Well, I think brilliant way of walking through it and just starting with what does he care about or what do we care about individually? But this artificial separation, we do work with some athletic coaches and they’re looking to develop the whole person, their players, not just as leaders on the quarter on the field of play, but if they’re in college, also in the classroom and also in the community. So I think the other thing, that leader approach, we look at someone holistically, we look at people, I think Plato said, and I’ll paraphrase this, we come into this world whole, but we need others to complete us. And I think when you have that paradigm as a leader or as a teammate, you see how the interdependence and you see the importance. So first of all, we are affirming and we appreciate the wholeness that people bring and by our interactions with them, we actually help them to become more complete. And I think to me that’s leader. As coach, we become catalysts for people stepping into their full potential.

Bill Berthel:

I love that leaders who take that active interest in developing others are leader coaches. Not every leader has either had access to the coach’s clipboard or best practices or relevant context to practice in. And not every leader has had a good coach, and we hope this podcast assists leaders in this direction. But I’d be remiss if I didn’t suggest hiring a leadership coach, right? You can learn a lot by hiring a leadership coach and emulate some of those behaviors and activities that your coach does with you that you get to see that modeled and experience that yourself.

Ralph Simone:

And I think we need to always come back to it is about improving performance, improving awareness, improving morale and culture. We have this improvement mindset and we use holding the space for people asking open-ended empowering questions and offering a perspective because we all have blind spots. And just like a coach will, we’re in March Madness right now as we do this podcast. A coach is going to call a player off to the side, put their arm around them, let ’em know something they need to change real time in the game. It’s that we don’t always see ourselves cleanly. And so when someone can offer us that perspective, which helps us perform at a higher level, everybody benefits

Bill Berthel:

Love that. So directive and supportive behaviors are essential. Being able to provide some perspective is really helpful. Learning to ask open and empowering questions. Again, essential as the leader, as coach, good coaches ask as much or more than they tell perhaps. But when people are stuck, when people that we’re coaching are stuck, leader coaches, reframe reframing is asking questions that make the seemingly impossible more possible or at least approachable. And Ralph, I know you’ve got some really great reframing techniques. What are some of your favorites? What has been effective in your coaching?

Ralph Simone:

Well, this is a question that I use in coaching of my clients as well as my kids, and how could we make this situation worse? And one of the things we’re intending to do with reframing is shifting the energy and creating an opening for people to look at something from a different lens. And if you know how to make something worse, we can also conclude that you can make it better. But usually when I ask that question, people laugh or they go, what the taking a, so immediately you get a shift in energy and consciousness. It was interesting when you were talking about we can connect remotely, but if people feel they can’t, then I got to a simple solution. Get yourself physically into the space, right? Absolutely. What could you do differently or what is another way of looking at that is a good reframing question. There’s one I’ve asked recently, right? What would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail? Love that. So when you take failure off the table, you actually get people to consider the actions. So there’s a lot of ways we want to help people uncover the blocks that are keeping them from taking a step forward.

Bill Berthel:

It’s really about putting a different frame on it. That term reframing actually comes from visual arts where we take a slightly different perspective on roughly the same image. We’re not changing the whole context or the topic. We’re not trying to change the subject, we’re just taking a slightly different angle so we can see it through a different lens, get a different frame around it to see what might be around a blind spot, what might be around a particular hangup that we have. And I love the two I think of almost as extremes. What if you couldn’t fail? What if success was guaranteed and the first one you shared, how can you make it worse?

Ralph Simone:

How can you muck it up more? Because I mean, you’re already in this deep yogurt, let’s make it worse because you see no alternative, right? Because oftentimes when you do that, they start to say, wait a minute, there’s got to be a way, which is the opening that we’re looking for. I think leader, as coach sees beyond the illusion of the person’s current perception and offers up possibility. Sometimes reframing is I’ll actually physically have somebody move.

Bill Berthel:

Nice. Yeah, yeah.

Ralph Simone:

Let’s just take a look at this from over here. And just that shift, that frame, that movement causes them to look at it slightly differently. And again, it might not be a breakthrough, but it’s the beginning of a breakthrough. All breakthroughs are break with a reframing question creates the opportunity to have a break with a limiting current thought.

Bill Berthel:

Beautiful, beautiful.

Ralph Simone:

And that’s really powerful.

Bill Berthel:

Leaders as coaches are really aiming at action. They’re interested in results or achievement, and it’s not simply a conversation. It’s a conversation towards some actionable item or some commitment. And the coach plays a role in accountability in that we create the environment for accountability to that new action, that new call to action.

Ralph Simone:

Yeah, I think this idea of performance, the intention of moving people closer to what they’re aiming at, absolutely. We want to help them pay attention or focus on things that will help them get there. And we want to heighten their awareness of what might be getting in the way and how they’re getting distracted. But we’re still all about performance. We want to move the ball forward. And I think the other thing, leader as coach, I really do think more leaders should take a chapter out of sports coaches. The feedback is frequent, it’s positive, it’s constructive. We’re not kicking the can down the road. We’re not waiting until the end of the year to give corrective feedback because our intention is to be helpful. And the sooner someone knows something good or less than optimal, they’re now at a choice point. And that’s what we want to get people to is the choice point around actions that will move them closer to their intended outcome.

Bill Berthel:

Love it. We started this podcast, but jokingly, well, maybe this could put us out of business, and not to turn this into a commercial, but we do train leaders to be coaches. We provide opportunities for individuals leaders to understand the proven emergent coaching methodology, coaching way, if you will, where they receive personalized and unique coaching experience themselves. They learn the fundamentals of coaching, put it into actual practice and get feedback from master emergent coaches. It allows leaders to practice in their real life environment. It allows them to work on organizationally relevant practices, problems, challenges, and improvements.

Ralph Simone:

Well, I love the word practice. It came up a couple of times to get good at anything, it requires consistent practice. So before they sign up for our course and our process, which enables ’em to practice and really become a proficient leader as coach, what suggestions might we give them in the interim? What are some things that as a leader I can do immediately that will help me be more effective as a coach for my people?

Bill Berthel:

At the heart of coaching is really creating first that safe space where people can openly share, where they can really talk about what might be either challenging them or what they’re not quite getting right, or where they’re stuck or hung up on something. So first, it’s really about creating that space. Then from there, it’s deep listening. It’s listening first before any type of response, even before asking questions. It’s a really deep sense of listening, acknowledging and validating what you’re hearing, what you’re listening to, so that individual feels that connection in an authentic genuine way. From there, we get to ask questions. Open and empowering. Open questions are typically difficult to answer, yes or no, they’re not those closed questions. We can answer any question. I think yes or no, but they’re difficult to answer, yes or no. They’re open, they’re inviting, they’re full of discovery, and they’re empowering. They’re about what that individual might do, could do, would think of next and then listen again.

Ralph Simone:

Yeah. Which makes me think of one thing that everybody could do immediately after this podcast is work on becoming genuinely more curious. Love it. Because I think that genuine curiosity with some training around what and how questions leads to more effective questioning when you are coaching an individual.

Bill Berthel:

Yeah, absolutely. So every opportunity is not a coaching opportunity if you’re in a situation where it is a quick answer is needed. There’s an important urgent thing to solve in that moment. It’s not necessarily a coaching opportunity. We’re not suggesting a silver bullet in coaching, but where are those missed opportunities to connect deeper through curiosity, listening and asking those open, empowering questions.

Ralph Simone:

Although Bill, I think when you open, I think sharing information in a directive way could be considered a form of coaching. So it’s not the same as the asking and the deep listening, but it is actually saying, here’s what we need to do and why and when it’s needed by going back to the directive behavior. And so in some instances, situationally, that may be the correct solution.

Bill Berthel:

I love it. So leader coaches get to engage their team at a deeper higher level. They increase retention and higher levels of engagement happen, right? Talent are some of the most important elements. I hate to say assets of an organization, but leader coaches are some of the most attractive leaders. There are a leadership force that people really want to work with and follow, and it’s a really interesting talent attractant. So a lot of organizations are challenged today, either retaining or attracting talent leaders as coaches become just absolutely, if I can use the positive version of viral in a community, they become viral in that good way. People want to work with leaders that coach

Ralph Simone:

Just a story I thought about, and it might sound a little self-promotional, but I remember our managing partner, Kathy Gainor, she told me early on when she started working for me and she started working really just to get appointments, business development appointments, she goes, I was almost shocked when you asked me, well, what do you think? Or what ideas do you have? And I go, what do you mean? She goes, I never was asked that where I used the word and in my mind, I doesn’t make sense not to ask that because she brings a different perspective. She had an energy about her that I knew she had some ideas, and I was almost floored when she said that. And she said it recently. She said, I was surprised when you asked me, what do you think? Well, why wouldn’t you as a leader want to know what your people think? Because it’s probably different from you. And I like to be very pragmatic about this. I want different perspectives so we can get a better answer. I want different perspectives. So I got people who are enjoying what they’re doing and feel valued and part of the team. And I think it’s not only is it the right thing to do, I think it’s a very pragmatic thing to do to be leader as coach in strengthening performance, engagement, culture and realm.

Bill Berthel:

Beautiful example. Good stuff, Ralph. Good stuff. To learn more about our offering, leader as coach, please visit www.getemergent.com/leader-as-coach. Thank you.

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In this episode, Bill and Ralph discuss the value of changing our thinking about the way we solve problems. When we think of problem-solving as polarity management – that is, managing two forces that are interdependent but seemingly opposite of one another, we can reap tremendous benefits for ourselves personally, and for our teams and organizations. Listen to learn more about the concept and get ideas about how you can introduce polarity management to your leadership.

Prefer to read the transcript?

Bill Berthel:

Ralph Simone:

And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel:

Ralph, great topic today, the conditions for speaking up, what is the space of folks not speaking up? What’s happening?

Ralph Simone:

Well, I think a lot of our coaching experience is coaching people to have those missing or pivotal conversations. And as I was thinking about this, this is kind of a both/and opportunity. We need to have the structure and culture in place so people feel safe and comfortable speaking up. On the other hand, as an employee, I need to have the courage and I think take the responsibility that if I see it, I need to say it and perhaps even do something about it. So I think it’s not just one or the other. The culture and the employees have to be working to mitigate what we would refer to as missing conversations.

Bill Berthel:

Oh, absolutely. Having a culture of that psychological safety, that term of psychological safety means that people do feel safe to share ideas, speak up, and possibly if needed disagree. Sometimes speaking up is disagreeing. It doesn’t always have to be, but we have that sense that I’m going to be emotionally safe in this space. Something I say won’t be held against me.

Ralph Simone:

And I think for our listeners, I want to make the distinction that you may be a very open, very personal, very kind individual, but sometimes your passion around a particular topic could make it difficult for people to speak up. And I have a recent example where in our organization, I’m the founder. I’ve been around practicing this leadership development and coaching the longest, and we introduced a topic and we had our extended team at this meeting. And it was a topic that I felt strongly about, really passionate about, and instead of waiting my turn and giving people, I just kind of went full bore with how I felt it needed to be. And I didn’t catch it real-time, but I reflected a few minutes later. Now our newest guy, if he saw it differently, I don’t know that I created the conditions for him to speak up. So sometimes it can be just by how passionately we feel about something, we can make it uneasy for others to see it differently or to challenge our perspective.

Bill Berthel:

That’s a great point, Ralph. Recently I’m working with a client and it’s about a year-long program, multiple workshops and meetings with the same cohort group. And really everyone in the group is wonderful and really bright. This one individual approached me through email and said, I really want to share some content with you, but I’m really hesitant to do that because you seem so well-read and an expert in your field. And I didn’t even think about that, that sometimes our expertise can create that space just like our passion. And by the way, this gentleman has shared so far three amazing pieces of content with me that I’ve never was exposed to, never heard of. That is just fascinating.

Ralph Simone:

Bill, I appreciate you sharing that. I think sometimes subject matter experts cast a large shadow and they create conditions that cause people to be tentative. And I think it’s a general awareness around that. And I think there are ways, there’s ways of framing it, but you really need to be mindful of your behavior, not just what you say, but what you do. I mean, we’ve all been part of the instructor that’s up there and says ask any question. There’s no such thing as dumb questions. And yet people still don’t ask things that they don’t understand. And so I think that is incumbent on them, right? The responsibility to speak up. But there’s a lot of wasted time and energy in organizations and relationships because we do not have the conditions where people speak up. And when you don’t have all the information, you can’t make the best decisions. And I think that’s one of the reasons why we think this is so important to really keep being mindful. I remember in one organization, people who spoke up, they were thought of as troublemakers or people who weren’t supportive as opposed to people who were trying to make it better. Yeah, absolutely. I think that is an important distinction when we create these conditions for speaking up.

Bill Berthel:

And there’s something cultural in this as well that I want to recognize that in western societies we have the saying, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, which means that sometimes speaking up gets attention that may be positive or negative attention. In Eastern European countries, they have a saying that says the noisiest duck gets shot first, and that’s to keep the voice lower, to keep the voices, voices down. I think something that came out of the terrible events of nine 11 was that the T.S.A. taught us that if you see something, say something. And I think in organizations, I think if we see something, we get to say something and possibly do something. And that behavior matters towards creating an improvement or creating a positive change.

Ralph Simone:

And I think the important thing you just brought up before that point is the complexity of a diverse culture. We need to be aware of how people process different things regarding speaking up and how do we address that as well, and how do we create those conditions that take into consideration the different experiences that people have had based on where they were value programmed.

Bill Berthel:

Absolutely, absolutely. Let’s talk about missing conversations. We know we train, we work with many leaders and teams and organizations around this idea of having those missing or pivotal conversations.

Ralph Simone:

I think people psych themselves out. I think they have the conversation over and over in their head, and for some reason there’s an obstacle, there’s a belief, there’s an assumption they’re making that’s preventing them. And one of the tips I give myself, I give my kids, I give the leaders I coach, is don’t overthink it. If you think something needs to change, you’re probably right. It doesn’t mean you don’t want to be thoughtful about it, but don’t overthink it. I think too often we’re overthinking it and to the point that we have the conversation in our head so much that we think we’ve had it in some instances.

Bill Berthel:

Right.

Ralph Simone:

When we look at relationships that go sideways or organizations that go sideways, it’s often because the most important conversations that need to happen are the ones that are not happening. Those are the ones that we need to speak up and we need training for that. But it goes beyond training. It goes around what’s the belief, what’s getting in the way of mitigating those missing conversations?

Bill Berthel:

Well, I love that in Dr. Susan David’s work in the book Emotional Agility, she calls that first step of not psyching yourself out. She calls that getting yourself off the hook. We put ourselves on that hook by just what you’re saying. We overtalk it inside of our own heads. We overthink it. The first step is getting ourselves off that hook and finding the courage to say something. And

Ralph Simone:

Here’s a tip for getting yourself off the hook, and it’s one that I’ve been using for years is I might tee it up by saying, I’m really not sure about this, but what I’m seeing doesn’t make sense. And I think it was important to point it out. And so I kind of soften it at the beginning and to kind of create that opening, but I’m creating that opening to let myself off the hook to put something in play.

Bill Berthel:

So Ralph, I love the softening approach. Many ways to do that. I have an idea. I’m not sure it’ll be popular. Don’t apologize. In that space, many of us, me included, are inclined to apologize. We start with, I’m sorry, but I need to share. And that really takes away the power. It takes away the validity of your point. So softening is great. Resist apologies in The soft.

Ralph Simone:

Good distinction, good distinction. But I think that the biggest tip would be if it’s not feeling right, bring it up.

Bill Berthel:

Absolutely.

Ralph Simone:

Absolutely. You can bounce it off somebody around how to bring it up. But don’t play too much a mental or emotional tug of war with yourself. Just bring it up, put it in play, and stay present to how the person or person responds to it. There’ll be a lot of information in there. Conditions for speaking up. I don’t fill out surveys when I’m not happy with the service. I give that feedback direct. I will fill out the survey if I’m happy. And somebody said, why do you do that? I said, because I think it’s important for people to hear from me first, what I wasn’t happy with so they have an opportunity to change it. And I think one of the things, the reason we want to continue to create these conditions for speaking up is so that we see what needs to be changed in an organization so that we keep people engaged so that we’re not wondering why all a sudden we’ve lost a high percentage of our people. There were indicators, but for some reason people didn’t feel comfortable putting them in play. So I just think we need to continue to push ourselves in making sure that we have the structure and the culture and the courage to speak up.

Bill Berthel:

So Ralph, where would you ask leaders to start?

Ralph Simone:

I would ask leaders to start by journaling and by really observing their own behaviors and how psychologically safe, how do they frame things, how do they respond when somebody challenges them? And I also think I would encourage leaders to be vulnerable because I think when you do those three things, you are actually creating an inviting atmosphere for people to feel less uncomfortable chiming in.

Bill Berthel:

Ralph, thank you.

Ralph Simone:

Yeah, as individual contributors, I think I would encourage you, if you think something is not quite right, test it out. Don’t sit on it. I think those would be probably the two things I would suggest.

Bill Berthel:

Thank you. And folks, thanks for listening. You can listen to a new podcast two times every month here at Get Emergent or wherever you listen to podcasts. This is where we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas, balanced with what we hope you find are better practices that you can apply to your work and your leadership. Thank you.

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Prefer to read the transcript?

Bill Berthel:

Ralph Simone:

And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel:

So we have a, I think a really important topic today of not solving problems, Ralph.

Ralph Simone:

Wait a minute, problem. What am I going to do?

Bill Berthel:

I think that is going to be the reaction to reading that title. I think that’s why people are tuning today because, and it’s really normal. It’s really, really normal. It makes sense. Most of us were educated and were conditioned to solve problems. Every test you took in school was to solve a problem, whether that was solving an equation in math or writing an essay, or basically solving a problem to make that condition even more sticky. Most of us are rewarded for our problem-solving abilities, and we’re proud to be problem-solvers. I can’t tell you how many leaders I talk to that say I’m an excellent problem solver and that’s wonderful. There are problems to be solved.

Ralph Simone:

Perhaps I was ahead of my time. I don’t think I did a lot of problem-solving in my early academic career.

Bill Berthel:

I think our listeners happen to have two guys talking to him that are good at this polarity management space, not solving problems, but really identifying when it’s not a problem to solve, but a set of polls to manage.

Ralph Simone:

What I’m surprised at, a couple things. One is, the terminology people are unfamiliar with most people we talk to, and secondly, can we give some examples? Because I think once we provide some examples of not solving a problem, but managing polarity, I think it comes to light for people and then I think they’re able to start to see some of their organizational challenges through a different lens.

Bill Berthel:

Absolutely. Absolutely. So this polarity management model is managing two forces that are interdependent, yet seemingly opposite of one another. A basic example, one of my favorite examples is breathing. So breathing consists of many biological activities, right? But let’s simplify breathing by focusing on inhaling and exhaling, right? Two interdependent forces, right? But very two opposite forces, right? Inhaling and exhaling. One way to test if they’re polar or opposite enough to fit this structure is attempt to do both at the same time. Go ahead, try it. Listeners, while you’re listening, try to inhale and exhale at the same time.

Ralph Simone:

Yeah, you can’t do that.

Bill Berthel:

You’re not doing it. No matter how you think you might be doing it, you’re not doing it, you can’t do it. Our body doesn’t do it right?

Ralph Simone:

And what I love about the example is you need to do both. Optimize one without optimizing the other would be detrimental to your health.

Bill Berthel:

So this little test can then be validated by changing the conjunction we use when we talk and think about the two interrelated opposites. We change or it’s not inhaling or exhaling, we change it to and what do you think is comprised of inhaling and exhaling? They’re two interdependent energies or systems, two poles that are required for the process of breathing.

Ralph Simone:

So I can hear some people grumbling a little bit, but yes, I get that. But there are problems to be solved in my organization. So could you give me some more organizational examples that might help me understand this distinction more clearly?

Bill Berthel:

An organizational example of a problem not to be solved or a leadership example could be the polls of being highly structured and rigorous as compared to being flexible and agile in your leadership style.

Ralph Simone:

I love that example. I was having lunch with a senior leader of one of our clients yesterday, and he used language that really spoke to this and this polarity management, he said that we need to take a look at when the pendulum has swung too far. He was actually talking about, let’s call it centralized and decentralized organizational structures. And when does the pendulum swing too far? Where we’re overly centralized, we’re becoming bureaucratic and less agile. When does it swing too far? When decentralized is chaotic? I thought it was brilliant language.

Bill Berthel:

I love that language. I love the analogy of the pendulum swinging too far. Ultimately, that’s what we want to be able to do to better manage a set of poles in this polarity management space. So let’s think about these two seemingly opposite leadership qualities of rigor and flexibility. Let’s just call it that for now. Rigor and flexibility. So immediately with these descriptions, these titles, I think most of us can see the benefits. There are obvious benefits to having both of these qualities of rigor and flexibility as a leader. And notice I said, and not, or Ralph, what are the benefits of rigor?

Ralph Simone:

Scale, repeatability, consistency, alignment, discipline.

Bill Berthel:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Love it.

Ralph Simone:

Performance.

Bill Berthel:

You can immediately start making a list of the benefits. How about flexibility? What are the benefits of flexibility,

Ralph Simone:

Engagement, agility, nimbleness, ability to manage, change, all of those. I

Bill Berthel:

Love it. I love it. Now, I bet you can think of drawbacks of both. What are the drawbacks of being too rigorous, right? Get the pendulum swinging too far into one of those spaces, being too rigorous. What happens? What are the drawbacks?

Ralph Simone:

Well, the organization is slow to move. It sticks to things that no longer work. It causes people to feel like they don’t have an opportunity to express themselves.

Bill Berthel:

Yes,

Ralph Simone:

I think it could diminish engagement.

Bill Berthel:

Diminish engagement might diminish employee satisfaction, maybe even innovation, some would say, now how about too flexible? What does that look like?

Ralph Simone:

Well, it could be chaos. I mean, we talked about this a little bit yesterday on a training session. I think the flexibility gate needs to swing both ways, and if it’s too flexible, people just do whatever they want, then there’s no consistency, there’s no scale, and it could be almost anarchy or chaos.

Bill Berthel:

So I love it. We just conducted two steps in using the polarity management model in our leadership. First, leaders use questioning. They used critical questioning. Am I solving a problem or am I looking at two interdependent energies, right? So the breathing example, interdependent energies, the rigor and flexibility. Example, two interdependent energies, right? Lemme give you a silly example of a problem to solve. Ralph. Whatcha having for dinner tonight?

Ralph Simone:

Well, it’s either going to be core life or fried fish.

Bill Berthel:

Alright? Either going to be you just went or it’s a beautiful problem-solving, you’re going to have two or more choices and you’re going to solve the problem because you’re going to choose and have dinner.

Ralph Simone:

Yeah, my mother’s actually going to solve the problem. She’s going

Bill Berthel:

Cool

Ralph Simone:

Decide what she wants and then I’m going to go get it for all of us.

Bill Berthel:

Yeah, beautiful. You’re dining with others, right? You’re dining with others. Yeah. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. So that first step is that critical questioning. Am I really solving a problem or do I have a set of interdependent energies to manage? Second step, we started Ralph together is what’s called mapping. We identified those two polls. We used the examples of rigor and flexibility, and we started identifying the benefits or the positives of both polls and then the negatives or the drawbacks or I like to think of ’em as warning signs because if the pendulum starts swinging too far into that space of rigor or flexibility, in our example, it’s a warning sign. What do we do with a warning sign? If we’re in traffic, we see a warning sign.

Ralph Simone:

Well, we start to slow down. We pump the brakes, we take a look around.

Bill Berthel:

Exactly. At least wise, intelligent folks like yourself do, right? You take that warning sign, you slow down and you react to the information that’s around you so you can navigate it better. So the third step is watching those warning signs. Watching those warning signs. Am I being too rigorous? I can consult the list of negatives in the rigor. Is my organization not being innovative or are people not quite approaching me any longer? Do things seem so structured that there isn’t opportunity for new possibilities or new business coming in?

Ralph Simone:

I love these examples and I think another way to frame that is what are the indicators or signposts that we have swung too far one way or the other, or are swinging, because I think you want to get out ahead of this right before it becomes more difficult to manage.

Bill Berthel:

That’s exactly it, and we’re just talking to the mapping, but you can actually think about, just have a sheet of paper and directly in the middle of the piece of paper, write the word and to the left of that and write the name of the one pole. Perhaps it’s rigor to the right. Write the name of the other pole. Perhaps that’s flexibility. Underneath those words, write down a list of those warning signs, those drawbacks above those words. Write the positive benefits. And you’ve just mapped those two polls. Here’s the beauty of this model. It’s super simple. It’s like a mirror image con list. You have the pros on the top, the cons on the bottom of that pole, and you have the two columns on the sheet. Here’s the beauty of the use of this model, is that if I sense I’m being too rigorous, the antidote to that is on the upside of flexibility. I can consult the benefits or the positive attributes of flexibility and choose a new behavior

Ralph Simone:

Bill, in addition to the examples you shared, I’m wondering what other examples we might provide to our listeners as to candidates for this polarity mapping.

Bill Berthel:

I think a hot one still, I’m not going to say right now, I think it’s still is remote versus in-office, and I said versus because it’s still pretty controversial. But if I change that to and what shows up.

Ralph Simone:

So I think we need to change it to and because this is where going back through other podcasts, the task needs to be the boss. If we treat that as a problem to be solved, we will make the wrong decision.

Bill Berthel:

Absolutely. Absolutely. We’ll, not only make the wrong decision and that’s bad enough, we’ll keep wasting energy and resources supporting that bad decision in our organization, which is just continued waste.

Ralph Simone:

But I think looking at it as an and proposition and looking at the upsides and looking the downsides, map it out, but then let the context drive. How do you optimize both of those interdependent values? This is not new, it just became more prevalent as a result of the pandemic, but people have been working physically in spaces and geographically distanced for decades.

Bill Berthel:

Absolutely. I think another set of polls that will always be relevant for leaders is being supportive and directive in their leadership style with their people. Leaders benefit from, it’s a both / and style of supportive and directive, but there are times where we need to be more supportive than directive and more directive than supportive.

Ralph Simone:

It’s interesting because when leaders often refer to themselves, they think they have to identify with one or the other, or they tend to identify when they really need both, and they really have both.

Bill Berthel:

They do. That brings up a final one that I’ll share is logical and emotional. I think leaders are both logical and emotional and many times we’ll attach to a preference, and that’s okay knowing that’s a strength. That doesn’t give us permission to not craft our skills in the other space. If we see ourselves as a very logical individual, there’s an opportunity for emotional and social development and vice versa.

Ralph Simone:

So it’s interesting to me when people start to argue for their limitations or their preference or their identity, that is an indicator or signpost that the pendulum has swung too far towards one of the polls.

Bill Berthel:

I love it. And if you’re a trusted advisor of that person, maybe you can let them know. We don’t always see it ourselves. We just don’t always see it ourselves.

Ralph Simone:

So where to start, Bill?

Bill Berthel:

Yeah, so I think first that critical questioning, identify some polar relationships that might benefit you. We gave you a few examples. Think about some of your own, perhaps start by watching your conjunctions. Is it really a problem to solve? Are you using “and” or “or”? A problem truly goes away when it’s solved, at least for a while. You’ll get to choose dinner the next day and the next day. It’s a repeating problem, but it goes away at least for a while, truly goes away. So use that essential question. Is it a problem to be solved or polarity to be managed? Next, start mapping out some of those interrelated polls that you’re identifying. Identify the benefits, the positive sides of the poll and the drawbacks or the warning signs, the negative sides of the poll. And then third practice in reflection and in real time. You have two opportunities to practice, I think here. How can you increase the use of the positive, the benefits list, while reducing or relying less on the warning signs, the negative in each poll? What different activity would you choose to apply and manage? And I think we can do this in reflection after we’ve had an interaction with someone, we’ve been in a meeting, we delegated whatever the activity was, we can reflect. But I think the more we practice this, it becomes real-time skillset, real-time practice.

Ralph Simone:

What just occurred to me is that planning and doing could be a polarity to be managed, right? We need to do both. And what are the indicators that we may be doing more and not planning enough or vice versa.

Bill Berthel:

Love it. Thanks for listening. You can listen to a new podcast two times every month here at Get Emergent or wherever you listen to podcasts, where we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas, balanced with what we hope you find are better practices that you can apply to your work and your leadership. Thank you.

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In many organizations, an enormous amount of time and energy is wasted by sloppy handoffs. Effective requests and delegation require the confidence to hand off tasks to the people best equipped for the task, regardless of their role or title. Ralph and Bill discuss the importance of getting past hierarchy and making the task the…

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Some effective leaders could be described as disruptive. But of course, we’re thinking of disruption as a constructive force – challenging the status quo, innovating, committing to lifelong learning and experimentation, being agile, and having the ability to adapt and change. It’s about breaking rules with purpose. Listen as Bill and Ralph discuss disruptive leadership,…

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Are you hesitant to take time off? Do you find yourself working while on vacation? Taking time “out of the business” is essential to personal refreshment and energy restoration. And just as important, reluctance to step away does a disservice to development of our employees and teams. In this episode, Ralph and Bill discuss the…

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After recently revisiting a book by Wayne Dyer that he read many years ago, Ralph was inspired to discuss with Bill the 12 principles the author identified as critical to effective leadership – “Dyer’s Dozen.” How many are you already practicing, and which do you need to introduce or optimize to enhance your own leadership?…

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The definition of emergent is “coming into being.” In this episode, Ralph and Bill discuss foundational principles every emergent leader needs to be aware of, and importantly, needs to strengthen over the course of their leadership journey. So even if you’re at a more mature stage of your own leadership, listen in for a valuable…

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Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent Podcast, where we discuss leadership concepts and best practices. We like to provide ideas, concepts, and pragmatic experiments to help you develop as a leader. I’m Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel: So Ralph, we’ve got a great topic for this podcast. Our business partner Kathy Gaynor, who happens to not watch the Great Show of Ted Lasso that you and I are big fans of.

I, I think she watches it vicariously through us, which, which is one way to consume a TV show. But Kathy found this great list, I think website on the internet, somewhere of these 12 leadership lessons of, you know, Ted Lasso wisdom that we’d like to talk about this morning.

Ralph Simone: Absolutely. I gotta be transparent here. I was a reluctant viewer initially.

Bill Berthel: Oh, me too. That’s interesting.

Ralph Simone: I had seen a couple of the commercials and I thought, this is corny. But I had heard from enough people, I respected that you gotta watch this show. And then once I started watching it, I was hooked. And you know, I’ve used.

Various lines from Ted Lasso. So this list I think is really powerful and we may or may not get through the whole list, but we ought start with the first one, which I think is a tenant for what we do in our coaching business. Believe in yourself. The importance of that when you’re leading people, right?

Believe in yourself.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely right. That’s a piece of credibility in your leadership. If you don’t believe in yourself, it’s going to be hard to follow that individual as a leader. So there’s credibility there. There’s also that realistic optimism that I can do this. We can do this. Being rooted in reality, but moving it towards positive progression in the work that starts with believing in yourself.

Ralph Simone: The belief causes you to take action. It encourages you to experiment. It encourages you to practice. I think it builds resilience and in the show they have the, the signed believe over his office and, you know, Napoleon Hill said, what the mine can conceive and believe it can achieve.

You know, helping people to believe in their potential, in their goals, in their dreams, and then supporting them. And I, and I think one of the things I like about the show is how supportive he is in this kind of folksy way of people continuing, you know, to believe in themselves.

Bill Berthel: Well, it’s not on the list, but as a coach, he empowers people to believe in themselves and he believes in others, which is really endearing in his character and certainly as a leader.

If our listeners don’t watch that show as the episodes continue, at least for me, his folkiness and corniness starts to become really endearing qualities. I start to fall in love with the guy, and the second piece on the list is a perfect Ted Lasso ism. Doing the right thing is never the wrong thing.

Ralph Simone: And you know, it’s interesting to me, right, that the right thing is the right thing regardless. And, if you have to ask about it, it means you probably have some doubts about the choices. You know, doing, the right thing can be giving feedback, right? Giving performance feedback. It could be not saying something, right?

Yeah. Yeah. It could be offering some encouragement when you see someone needs it, right? I always remember the, you know, The story. This was a football, American football, not the soccer football that we talk about in the Ted Lasso show. If a halfback or fullback drops the ball, a lineman, an offensive lineman, wouldn’t pick it up and say, well, he dropped it. Right? The right thing is to pick up the ball. Regardless of who caused the problem. And I think. A lot of leadership is about doing the right thing. It’s principle-centered. It’s listening to our conscience. It’s considering what is best for all right? It’s kind of replacing selfishness with selflessness.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it’s modeling that, right? It’s, it’s leading through your behaviors and leading through those examples as well for your team, I think of it as a touchstone, but that sign that Ted Lasso puts over the doorway as an important reminder in the belief piece, it’s modeling the behaviors of doing the right things as well.

Ralph Simone: Perfect.

Number three, I think is really fitting for the work we do in leadership development coaching. All people are different people, right? One size fits one.

Bill Berthel: One size fits, one. That’s it with the tendency to stereotype or the tendency to categorize so we can make meaning of individuals. There’s some value in that.

However, we miss what each individual can contribute to their authentic talents or their authentic contribution if we’re not seeing each individual as they are. And something I love about what we do, our team, is that we meet people where they are. That’s what this says to me. Leaders need to meet people where they are.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. And help them. Right. Create that space instead of trying to figure it out. How it unfolds. And I think he’s brilliant with that in the show. And which leads to number four, see good in others. You know, we’re so quick to judge, we’re so quick to try and figure things out. And I think this idea of people are either doing one of two things, they’re either helping or they’re asking for help.

And I think if we can see the good in them, that’s what we’ll hear in any of their requests or cries for help. We’ll hear that.

Bill Berthel: So I think Ted is sometimes challenged, his character is sometimes challenged in this place, but he really models this and then he’s questioned by people around him. He sees good in so many things it almost seems unreal at times. There are examples where he’s really stepping up and turning the other cheek or embracing his quote-unquote nemesis or enemy.

Ralph Simone: And, but energetically, you know, when we think about it energetically, he’s operating in a much higher level of energy, which allows us to be more creative.

And I was thinking about a line from another movie I watched recently. It was S F T. See, feel, trust, and I think what we see the good in people kind of feel that good and trust that they can step further into their potential or greatness. It’s one of the things, you know, when I sit there and I know it’s just a TV show, my eyes start to water up.

It’s when I, I see his belief in others. He sees something in them, he feels it. They feel it. And he trusts and they trust that they can step further into their greatness, which I think is just one of the reasons I look forward to the show. You know, I guess it comes out every Wednesday. You know, my wife and I both, you know, Ted Lasso night?

Bill Berthel: It’s Ted Lasso Night. Yeah. The same thing happens in our household as well. Number five on the list, courage is about being willing to try.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. You know, we encourage people and create the space for experimentation. And helping them find that courage. And I think courage and belief are really intertwined.

And yeah, I actually think experimentation or action is applied faith. And that requires a level of courage because you’re stepping into the unknown.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. Well, well, vulnerability isn’t, Named on this list. So tied to action, perhaps it is related to this next piece on the list where its vulnerability is a strength, not a weakness.

Right? We so often think of number six on the list as vulnerability as a strength, not a weakness. We often think of vulnerability as showing too much or putting a kind of weaker foot forward. But five and six on this list are so related. It, it takes courage, it takes vulnerability to step into that unknown space you’re talking about.

Ralph Simone: We’ve had a lot of training that says, don’t show weakness. Right? We’ve got a lot of training that causes us to armor up, and that’s why we don’t have as much authentic conversation as we could. And if you don’t accurately identify the challenge, it’s tough to move through it. And so vulnerability helps us with self-honesty.

And it helps us actually create more connection as opposed to less connection. Seven almost seems self-evident, tell the truth. But when I thought of the lesson just off of the list, you know, it’s not just telling the truth to other people, but it’s telling your truth and telling yourself the truth.

And again, I think there’s an element of self-honesty that’s critical for effective leadership.

Bill Berthel: So I love that, you know, telling the truth can be rooted in what are the facts. It’s often pitted against not lying or not being honest, but telling our truth, right? That’s about our courage to be authentic.

That’s our authenticity. And I think the character of Ted Lasso is that I think he’s an authentic guy, whether he is corny or folksy or goofy. He’s an authentic leader.

Ralph Simone: Yeah, he doesn’t seem to be worried about what people will think of his folksy metaphors and analogies. He just kinda puts him out there, you know, in a very authentic and vulnerable way.

And again, I think that’s the charm of his, of character, and people you know who want to not like him eventually love him.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. He wins people over, doesn’t he?

Ralph Simone: Which leads to number eight. You know, winning is an attitude, and I, and I think we believe that, right? We talk a lot about the mindsets of transformational leaders and you know, they see possibility and they see growth, and they’re curious and they’re responsible.

And I think that’s really, an attitude or a mindset. It starts there, right? The ancestor to every action is a thought. And so this belief goes, it actually goes back to number one, you know, believe in yourself, and that’s the first step in winning.

Bill Berthel: And in the program, he embodies this so well. They are not a winning team as far as stats in the game goes, they, they seem to lose more than they win, but his attitude is not one of losing or acquiescing or giving up.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. I think it goes to the growth mindset. You know, that was the Mandela phrase that I either win or learn. And I think he’s really focused on the learning that takes place around how they could play the game better, but the learning about themselves. And learning about the relationships they have with each other. I think there’s a lot of the growth mindset in this that there’s learning and improving along the way.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely. Number nine, I love it’s optimists do more and this one speaks so loudly to me. When I’m, when I’m in a place where I’m like, oh, I’m not getting enough done, I recognize that’s so much about my kind of outlook.

Right? If I’m a little bit more optimistic, I’m not talking saccharin, Rosie Glass Bs. Here talking just like slanted, a little bit more optimistic. I start to get things done. My to-do list shrinks and my achievements go up.

Ralph Simone: It keeps you in action. I think it feeds you attitude. I think it gives you the courage to keep moving forward.

I was thinking about, you know, I had a Ted Lasso moment when I was coaching soccer I had, was coaching my daughter’s soccer team and they were young kids, seven or eight years old, and we actually went undefeated and about halfway through the year there was a parent who was watching me, apparently a lot closer than I thought, and he came up to me and said, I don’t understand how your team wins week after week.

You don’t seem to know anything about soccer. How do you do it? And I, and I was Kind of so incredulous by the move. I said, well, you’ve been studying me so closely, how do you think I do it? He, and he said a couple of things, which I think are embedded in these lessons. He said, one, you’re very positive. You’re very optimistic. Yeah. You believe in these kids. And two, you’ve got an assistant coach that seems to know what he’s doing. I, I, I took it as a compliment, by the way. I said thank you. Although I, I’m not sure that’s, What he intended. But I think that leads to, if we’re gonna be an effective leader or coach, we have to stay teachable.

We have to be open to learning and experimenting with new ways of doing things. And that’s his number 10 on the list. Stay teachable.

Bill Berthel: I think it’s so important, right? Leaders are learners. However we’re learning whether that’s what we’re reading, formal leadership development, learning day in, day out with our teams, through our experiences.

Leaders stay teachable and Ted shares that. Number 11 is actually my very favorite on this list, Ralph. I wrote a blog around this one a while ago actually when the show first came out. It’s be a goldfish. If you do something wrong, do not let it define you. Forget it, like a goldfish within 10 seconds, right?

They say that a goldfish’s memory is about 10 seconds. As soon as you know, the goldfish turns around and the bowl it forgot what happened on the way there. And I like that applied to where we might have done something wrong or, or failed, or made, you know, in error. Like, don’t let that beat ya up. Don’t ruminate in that space.

Learn and move on.

Ralph Simone: And I think we can even use that around the positive stuff because I think sometimes we too tightly identify in a very narrow way of who we are. And we’re much more than that. We’re continually growing and evolving, so I, I like that, be a goldfish, but almost for anything. The next moment is a completely new moment.

And we don’t have to be limited by who we think we are based on a past performance. And last, what’s the last one on Ted Lassos 12 leadership lessons?

Bill Berthel: Happiness is a choice. Happiness is a choice. We see Ted as a character chooses happiness, time and again, even when he is struggling. This idea of not living our life at the effect of outside forces.

While there are absolutely things that will affect us and they should, it’s not about being oblivious. We are able to choose happiness. We’re always at choice, and happiness is a choice.

Ralph Simone: I think it’s a great tagline for the proactive model, right? When Covey taught and the seven habits have it won between stimulus and response, humans have this freedom to choose.

And it doesn’t mean that the event was pleasant, but we can choose how we respond to the event. And if we come from a place of optimism, and positivity, we’re, we’re more likely to positively influence that unfortunate situation. And I think we’re always at a choice point. I like to think about conscious choices, and we want those choices to be informed by our purpose and our values.

And so we can always choose. There’s always a lesson embedded in whatever experience we have.

Bill Berthel: And to our listeners, whether this is a conscious choice to listen to us or you’re already in the habit. We hope you continue to listen to the Get Emergent podcast. Thank you for listening. And you can listen to a new podcast two times a month here at Get Emergent, where we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas, balanced with what we hope you find to be best practices you can apply in your leadership.

Thank you.

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Ralph defines enlightenment as discovering “the light within.” And as he and Bill discuss, when we allow our own lights to shine and take time to find the light within all those we work with – to tap into their passion – we foster true team engagement and become a much more powerful leader. Listen and enlighten your leadership.

Prefer to read the transcript?*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors

Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. Our podcast is focused on individual, team, and organizational development and performance. We focus on topics such as leadership, human development, and raising the consciousness and awareness of leaders. We aim to provide creative concepts, new ideas, and pragmatic tips and practices for leaders in all walks of life.

I’m Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel: So Ralph, today we want to talk about the topic of enlightened leadership. Why enlightened leadership for our listeners?

Ralph Simone: Part of it is because I’ve been rereading all the books in my library. My wife has put a moratorium on new purchases, and one of the ones I reread was the Spiritual Path of the Ninja Warrior.

And they talk about enlightenment like as, as a place that you need to get to. And I think in my mind, in our mind, enlightenment literally means the light within. So I think enlightened leadership is leadership that discovers the light within themselves as well as that light in all of their people, because it’s their passion, and when we can tap into people’s passion. To their light. The light within there is no stopping us. There would be no issue around utilization, engagement, culture, because the enlightened leader fully understands that enlightenment is not a destination. It is a way of being. And when we can help uncover that light within all of the people that work for us.

Their commitment, their motivation, their engagement will be off the charts. So that’s why I think we should talk about the Enlightened Leader.

Bill Berthel: So this is about recognizing our own authentic light within, but as leaders, the unique relationship/responsibility we have in guiding others and helping others see theirs as well.

Ralph Simone: Absolutely. And not only see theirs, but to be willing to authentically shine their light. In any and all circumstances. I was thinking about all of the times, even still where I might censor myself. Hmm. Where I don’t share what is on my mind. Something that I think could be helpful because of the masks I’m wearing.

Right. I either wanna look good or I wanna be smart, or I wanna look under control or I wanna be accepted. And so I censor myself and so I, it’s like a dimmer switch and, and in effect I dim my light a little bit. And I think what happens is we have organizations full of people that are operating on dim lights, and I think the enlightened leader shines his or her light and creates the conditions where others shine theirs. You know, if you think about diversity, equity, and inclusion. Let’s create the opportunity where we bring diverse lights to the table. That we provide an opportunity for them to shine and all are included in that, just think about how bright that picture would look.

Bill Berthel: Well, I love that. I love the dimmer analogy because that really resonated strongly for me. I think we have our hands on our dimmers and sometimes either that social mirror or others. Ask us. So we’re almost demand us sometimes to dim our own lights. But I, I love the diversity piece, right? Light is in, in, in optics and light science.

It’s measured in temperature. And so having all different temperature lights there, right? The warm glow, the bright white light, the natural sunlight, right? We’ll see so much more. We’ll achieve so much more. We’ll get a fuller picture, but I’m hearing a fuller way of

Ralph Simone: being. Yeah, the enlightened leader is constantly unlayering him or herself.

Asking questions and providing the opportunity, right? Our beliefs, our biases, our experiences all serve to dim that light, all serve to mitigate how authentically we share who we really are and, you know, we need to reconnect to that light and that source of power ourselves. And we need to really enable and create conditions where people can tap into that passion as well.

I don’t think you find disengaged people when they have been allowed to let their light shine. Mm-hmm. I just don’t think it’s possible. I don’t think you find a lack of utilization or lack of commitment when people are allowed to share their passion. I think too often and, and I think my own leadership has been unenlightened for a long time because of how judgmental I’ve been and how quick I am to jump in on how quick I am to react to a unique perspective.

And so I think the work starts with self. Enlightened leader, but it is not somewhere to get to. It is really a way of being, and it literally means to allow your light to shine and then to create conditions for others to shine as well.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned it a little bit ago that we need to discard these masks, and you gave lots of great examples.

The activity of discarding those masks is part of it, but then reconnecting with our light. Reconnecting with our light. I know for me that’s often come from time with loved ones and deep conversation and time alone in nature. Talk about this reconnecting with light, with our own light.

Ralph Simone: So I think that process is most possible when we are still, that process is most possible when we’re surrounded.

By the natural habitat. When we’re looking at water, when we’re, when we’re seeing things because they are actually shining their light naturally as intended. Right, the thing that differentiates us from, from nature is we have this mind, this brain that can think in, which is a, a really incredibly powerful tool, but it also can limit us.

So I think getting still pausing long enough to rediscover our unique gifts, our purpose for being and then having the courage and the opportunity to share. I think those are critically important, right? It’s difficult in the hustle and bustle pace to allow that light to be shining brightly. We do have to get still, we have to pause.

We have to really, where is there some angst, right? Where is there some misalignment? Where is that dimmer switch causing us to feel dampened? And as soon as we can find that and let it go, we are in a position to just to shine so brightly. I’ve had glimpses of this where I have just shared what I absolutely was authentically thinking, and it has never led me astray.

But it’s not enough. And so I think enlightened leadership is finding and shining your light first and then finding methods by which we enable others to find and shine their light as well.

Bill Berthel: So can we talk about those two spaces a little separately? What would you recommend or suggest for our listeners as leaders themselves to either reconnect with or find their own light? What can they do?

Ralph Simone: I think one thing is, you know, go back to a list of activities, regardless if they’re in the workplace or not, that really you found energizing over your life. I’ve been looking at as I’m in the twilight of my career, new hobbies, and I’ve been thinking about, we talked about this the other day, about I’m gonna put a basketball hoop and backboard in my driveway. 65 years old because of being outside. Shooting baskets and really not with the intention of getting better in basketball as evidence of my short-lived career was just really to kind of be, and to have fun and to just be, you know, and, and, and to just kind of retap in.

So kind of really reflecting on those activities that are energy-gaining for you. Absolutely. The behaviors, right? Because that’s an insight to your gifts, that’s an insight to your light. And so I think that’s one of the things I would encourage people, but to build in that time. Absolutely. To take walks into nature, to take a, you know, I’ll take a walk this afternoon along the lake and you know, my wife won’t go with me because I walk too slow because I’m not trying to get anywhere.

You know, this is just like my steps. I don’t track my steps. I’m not trying to get to 10,000 steps. I’m trying to be in this step, and as I said at the beginning, enlightenment is not a destination. It is a way of being. And so building in that time just to be and to see what comes up. Because what comes up naturally is really your unique gifts, your light, and that’s what we wanna encourage people to share more of.

Bill Berthel: And there seems to be a real key in either stillness or at least a slowing down during this time of reconnecting with light.

Ralph Simone: So, as you know, I’m in the process of publishing a book, which is titled Slow Down to Go Faster. And we just had a number of people who I hold in high regard, read it. And a couple of them said, I don’t even think this, this should be the title, because I don’t think people really wanna slow down.

And I think it’s absolutely necessary that we build this slowing down into our lives so that we can go faster. Because we go faster when our path is illuminated more brightly. We go faster when we’re not afraid to share who we really are in what we really think and we go faster when we hold that same space for other people.

I think, what’s the African proverb?

Bill Berthel: If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go farther, go together.

Ralph Simone: And so we combine those two and, so I think we not only need to find that light for ourselves, but we need to hold that space for others to find that light within. I, I don’t know anybody that’s ever performed poorly that was passionate about what they were doing.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, I know when that path is illuminated, well, you not only go faster, you, you crash less, you wind up in the ditch a little less too. Right?

Ralph Simone: Let’s work the high beams on. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think we have too many people driving in our organizations at night with the lights off.

Bill Berthel: With the lights off or low beams, or low or dim.

Yeah. Yeah.

Ralph Simone: Let’s park the high beams on in London. Let’s see where we can go.

Bill Berthel: So let’s, let’s, let’s segue to that. How do, how do we as leaders, guide, assist? What’s facilitate, what’s the word for folks to get their lights on, to get the high beams on?

Ralph Simone: Well, I think it’s Leader as Coach that we’ve talked about in previous podcasts.

I think it’s leadership is relationship, right? We tie those together. I mean, I heard something on a recent podcast that I listened to that said, you know, I think we do that by encouraging people to have a solid foundation, but porous boundaries. And, and so don’t, I think it’s loosening up how we do things around here.

Maybe how we do things around here is too limiting. Doesn’t allow people to shine their brightest. And so I think it might be even loosening some of the cultural norms and, and kind of looking at it from a fresh perspective. So these are a couple of ideas. I mean, I’m excited about this because I look at where my light is not shining as brightly as it could, and most of it is self-imposed. But some of it is environmental. We first work with ourselves and then we work on the environment by which our people engage.

Bill Berthel: And you can listen right here to a new podcast two times a month, where we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas backed with better practices so you can apply them to your leadership.

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On this episode Bill and Ralph discuss two leadership “dials:” achieving and relating. We can often achieve results by skillfully relating with people. Listen for tips on how to best relate with others to achieve the results you seek for your leadership, team, or organization.

Prefer to read the transcript?

*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors

[00:00:00] Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. Our podcast is focused on individual team and organizational development and performance. We focus on topics such as leadership, human development, and raising the consciousness and awareness of leaders. We aim to provide creative concepts, new ideas, and pragmatic tips and practices for leaders in all walks of life.

I’m Bill Berthel.

[00:00:25] Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.

[00:00:26] Bill Berthel: So Ralph, in a recent client engagement, we were together. Participants said leadership is synonymous with relationship. Period. He made that like declaration. I, it’s still sticking with me. I love that he said that.

[00:00:41] Ralph Simone: I love it. You sure? That wasn’t me.

[00:00:44] Bill Berthel: Well, so I mean, it really, it, it resonates strongly with us and I think that’s why we love it.

You know, the context and discussion with that client was about identifying leadership brand. The what values and attributes that you’re known for and are essential to being effective in your leadership. And the participant was making the point that as leaders, we first and foremost have to be interested and good at relating.

And we love that.

[00:01:12] Ralph Simone: Well, I think it supports, and if we look at our four values as an organization, emergent, right? Emergent means coming into being, but our four values are trust. Relationship. Yeah, contribution and growth. Even when we decide right, how we’re gonna respond to a client, or even if they ask a request that we’re not totally comfortable with, we answer it through the lens of relationship and contribution.

So I think we strongly believe so and so I said, you sure it wasn’t me in there? That leadership is relationship and it’s the strength of those relationships. That will lead to more effective and scaled leadership. You are more easily able to influence, inspire, and align people, you know, towards a direction.

[00:02:03] Bill Berthel: Absolutely. And as you and I have discussed and written about, you know, Ralph, the, the full circle organization of which we’re certified in the Leadership Circle Profile Assessment, one of the most research and sophisticated leadership assessments available, it has at the basis of their model, which by the way, is a result of decades of research and human development, leadership effectiveness, and ineffectiveness, right?

They looked at what doesn’t make good leadership as well as human psychology. They suggest that leaders. Basically do three things, two of which are really desired. First, the least desirable is that leaders react, they’re reactive, and this is only undesirable because the primary motivation and drive of most reactionary behaviors, fear, other than sheer excitement or joy, that could be a reaction.

You know, think about it. When we react, we’re typically acting very quickly without much thought. We’re relying on the amygdala of our brain, which is the fear center. And while some, if not, many of these reactions can be effective in producing results, considering certain metrics and performances such as perfection and control and protecting self and relationships, it’s fear-based and ultimately has a poor return on the energetic cost it takes to react.

But the two desirable things all this research suggests and that we want to do more and more and develop, is to achieve and relate. Achieving and relating. We want to achieve things results, but we wanna relate with people to be effective leaders. So at least half of effective leadership, if not more, is relating.

[00:03:45] Ralph Simone: So what would we point the leaders we’re working with towards to strengthen their relating capabilities? So if leadership is relationship. What does that mean to a leader from a development perspective?

[00:03:59] Bill Berthel: Yeah, I love it. So some of it sits in that emotional and social intelligence space, right? Really being able to connect with our own self-awareness and awareness of others, what they’re feeling, sensing, maybe thinking, not necessarily reading people’s brains, but almost reading minds.

It’s really tuning in, tuning into self and others. And then it’s how we manage our behaviors. Manage ourselves and then manage those relationships with others. That’s a big component of the relating side, but even beyond that kind of EI SI space, that emotional intelligence, social intelligence space, creating that caring connection, really humanizing people in their workplace, connecting at appropriately personalized levels, really getting to relate that way.

Fostering team play. Getting people to relate with one another around important tasks around the work. And at a, again, a humanized level where it’s relating with people.

[00:05:03] Ralph Simone: I was coaching a client just yesterday and I, she was talking about a conversation she had with the CEO of the company around their mission, and it was interesting.

It’s to serve employees, clients, and community. And use this knowledge to help them succeed. Mm-hmm. But the order, because this idea of leadership is relationship. It’s relationship with your employees first with your clients or customer second, and then in the broader community in which you serve third.

But I kind of like that, almost the servant leader, one of the ways that I see leadership as relationship is asking myself the question, how may I serve? How may I serve those that are right in front of me, which are typically the employees that are part of the organization.

[00:05:50] Bill Berthel: Well, it is very much that service leadership Robert Greenleaf, I think in the sixties really coined that term and, and wrote the book, actually created the organization around servant leadership.

The full circle people call it selfless leader. And I think it’s the same kind of space where you are in fact relating with others to make sure they have as a leader, the resources they need, the tools they need, the safe space in which to operate and remove barriers that might be in the way of them getting that is that selfless leader, that servant leader space.

[00:06:24] Ralph Simone: Let me ask you some way, we have some hard nosed, pragmatic, results-oriented people perhaps listening to this podcast. Where does achieving fit in? So if leadership is relationship, I mean, is that only half of the equation?

[00:06:39] Bill Berthel: Yeah, so the research shows it’s not so much like a half and half kind of a relationship.

We have to switch the mindset a little bit here. Okay. It’s not too far of a stretch, I don’t think. It’s not relating achieving as two parts of the whole, but more like two poles to manage. It’s two dials. I think of it as two dials that both go from one to 100, whatever the settings are. But we’re constantly finessing these settings on both dials of relating and achieving.

To most effectively create the combination for results considering that situation the people we’re working with, but relating is always on. There’s no zero. Achieving is always on. There’s no zero. It’s like one to 100 or from the movie Spinal Tap, the funny ary, the dial went to 11, right? Cuz they had to do it just a little bit better than everyone.

The dial goes one to 11, right? Not one to 10, one to 11. There’s no offsetting on relating or achieving. We’re always doing both and hands on both dials.

[00:07:38] Ralph Simone: Well, it seems like then maybe this, our addition to our title might be that leadership is relating and achieving exclamation point because I think it, right, it considers both.

It’s the both/and.

[00:07:49] Bill Berthel: It really is, those are the two most highly effective, most desirable, creative competencies in the full circle language that effective leaders create balance in and are always growing those two, developing those two pieces of relating and achieving.

[00:08:07] Ralph Simone: Mm mm So what would we what’s some guidance we would give some of these leaders to strengthen this balance and to really look at leadership as relating?

What advice would we give?

[00:08:19] Bill Berthel: So perhaps first is your authenticity. This is not a fake it kind of space. It’s about being truly authentic. Creating as much of your own unique voice in this relationship, in this relating space to make sure you know it’s, it’s not fake, it’s credible, and that could be different for all of us.

This is a place where our own style comes in and our own level of connecting. I think what’s important here is that as leaders, we don’t really get the opportunity to not relate if we’re going to be effective. And so practice your own authentic style of relating with your team.

[00:08:59] Ralph Simone: So we shouldn’t fake it till we make it then.

[00:09:01] Bill Berthel: Ah, you know, I, I don’t know, and I’ve never been a fan of that. I think practicing, I think trying on new ways of doing it that are maybe a stretch, but comfortable enough, it feels authentic enough. I think practicing till you make it, I think experimenting till you make it

[00:09:18] Ralph Simone: Like it. So what else? What else would we suggest?

[00:09:21] Bill Berthel: So in this relating space, right? We talked a little bit about that. You know, the caring connection. We talked about fostering team play. We talked about the emotional social intelligence space, and we talked about service leadership. I think we could pick any one of those to practice. Service leadership suggests not martyr, putting everybody before you Self-care is really important, but how are we serving those that we lead?

How are we ensuring that they have what they need to be successful? Setting them up for success, coaching and mentoring and developing them. Really important.

[00:09:53] Ralph Simone: I think you’re describing being an inspirational leader and, and I don’t know who this quote is attributed to, but people don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care.

And so I think this leadership is relationship starts with that fundamental premise of how much you care. And you care about their development, their satisfaction, and then that’s going to lead to achieving. That will lead to results. I think sometimes we get it flipped or we don’t spend enough time and energy in their relationship aspect of leadership.

[00:10:29] Bill Berthel: And that’s exactly why it’s a both and not a half and half kind of relationship between relating and achieving. They are integrated with one another. By the way, achieving getting results is going to enhance the relationships. People come to work cause they wanna get stuff done. They wanna feel good about whatever the metric of success is.

Higher sales or more innovation or sometimes beating the competition is kind of fun for some teams. Whatever those metrics of success in achieving is strengthens the relating side. So these are completely intertwined.

[00:11:08] Ralph Simone: So if I’m somebody that’s not comfortable with the people side or some of the soft stuff, What would you suggest I do as a leader so that I could strengthen my commitment to the relationship aspects of my role?

[00:11:24] Bill Berthel: So I was just recently wrote a blog on can we be friends with those that we lead or with our coworkers? And I got a lot of feedback on that blog because I suggested we can. It doesn’t mean best friends. It doesn’t mean, you know, so close to friends that we blur the line of our working relationship, but perhaps it’s about practicing just slightly higher levels of friendliness.

Just slightly higher levels of friendliness in the workplace goes a long, long way. Not talking about being best buds and going out for beers or drinks or whatever you do, and that can certainly fit in this space. But it’s a function of acknowledging and recognizing one another in the workplace a little bit more.

And maybe just turning up the friendliness as a starting point.

[00:12:10] Ralph Simone: Can you give a few more examples of what turning up the friendliness might look like behaviorally? Cuz I think this is interesting.

[00:12:17] Bill Berthel: Yeah. So be a little curious about the people that you’re working with. Be a little curious about something that they’re interested in.

Perhaps it’s about their hobbies. Perhaps it’s you know, that they’ve got kids and those kids are in sports or dance, or they play a musical instrument. Most of us do like to be recognized that way and at least have a little bit of chit chat or talk about what’s going on in our lives. Show us some interest in the people you’re working with in their lives.

Ask them how they’re doing. Ask them how they’re doing. If you don’t know anything about them yet, ask them how they’re doing, what they’re thinking, what they’re reading, what their favorite thing they’re working on right now is.

[00:12:59] Ralph Simone: So I love your enthusiasm on this, but I can imagine there’s some curmudgeon, grumbling.

I’m not good with small talk, and that sounds like small talk to me. How might we get them into action and not let that belief be a barrier to relationship?

[00:13:16] Bill Berthel: Yeah, so I think well two things there. Before you mentioned them as soft skills and I, I think there needs to be a reframe there. These are not soft skills.

These are skills to practice. These are skills. They don’t come natural to everyone. I totally recognize that these are skills to practice, and I’d like to reframe that is that they’re actually power skills. They create more power in your work as a leader. They create more influence. They’ll create more credibility.

They’ll help you achieve greater results with your people. The other piece in there I think is if we’re telling ourselves, I’m not a people person, or I’m not good at this, you’ll be right. I think you’ll, you’ll get to prove yourself right every time at that. So I think there needs to be a little bit of an internal shift on that as well to say, well, what would it look like to experiment in this space?

Or what would it look like if I. All right. I’m not gonna be a big softy album. I’ll never be that. But what, what would it look like just to turn up the friendliness a little bit or be curious about those that I work with and, and ask them a slightly more, I’m putting air quotes, you can’t see them cuz you’re listening.

Little more personal with people.

[00:14:25] Ralph Simone: I think that’s brilliant. I mean, I think soft skills is an inauthentic way of saying some of this is hard. Yeah. And just, just being honest about that, you know, and practicing it. And if you’re a leader, you’re in the people business, get over yourself, you know? Figure out a way to make more connection because leadership is relationship, it’s interdependent, and we need to be able to make that connection if we’re gonna inspire influence in align people towards achieving our objectives.

[00:14:54] Bill Berthel: So I wanna go back to the client who said, That leadership is synonymous with relationship cuz he said something else that really, really stuck with me that I think kind of, you know maybe, maybe in a way punctuates today’s podcast as he said, that managers tend to manage things and results and resources, but leaders, lead people.

Mm-hmm. You just said it. If you’re a leader, you’re in the people business. Leaders lead people. And to do that, we relate. I thought that was an important differentiation. It’s not saying managers can’t relate with people, but his differentiation made made a lot of impact on me to really underscore that leaders are in the people business.

We really are. We’re leading people, we’re leading relationships with people.

[00:15:43] Ralph Simone: So one action I’m taking on is to make a connection with somebody in my organization today that I haven’t taken the time to make. And you know, because leadership is relationship and the stronger the relationship, the stronger the trust, the more that we can do together.

Both through results, contribution, and growth. So that’s one takeaway I’ve gotten from our conversation today on leadership.

[00:16:08] Bill Berthel: Oh, that’s fantastic. Yeah. That’s, that’s fantastic Ralph. And for me personally, so just a few months ago at the beginning of the year, I made the goal and aspiration to write three kind of notes. They might be emails, they might be handwritten, notes of gratitude to people that I work with, that I coach, clients that I work with, or even on a personal level. And I gotta tell you here we are near the end of March and I haven’t stuck to that goal and aspiration. So this is re-energizing me to get back to that connecting point of writing three notes a week of gratitude or appreciation of three folks in my life.

[00:16:42] Ralph Simone: Great.

[00:16:43] Bill Berthel: And you can listen right here to a new podcast two times a month where we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas, balanced with better practices you can apply to your leadership.

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Nobody’s perfect. And some employees may not be fully ready for the responsibilities you’d like to allocate to them. When leaders embrace that idea and “take the training wheels off,” it can create conditions of safety and empowerment to stimulate improved engagement, faster learning, and enhanced organizational performance. And as an added benefit, it can provide relief for overburdened leaders. Ralph and Bill discuss the tools you can use to take the training wheels off.

Prefer to read the transcript?

Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. Our podcast is focused on individual team and organizational development and performance. We focus on topics such as leadership, human development, and raising the consciousness and awareness of leaders. We aim to provide creative concepts, new ideas, and pragmatic tips and practices for leaders in all walks of life.

I’m Bill Berthel,

Ralph Simone: and I’m Ralph.

Bill Berthel: So Ralph, we’ve got a lot of energy and a great topic today. We’re gonna talk about how everyone is incompetent.

Ralph Simone: Well, we certainly are, and if we’re gonna have some fun with it. And it almost seems counter to what we believe around potential in Everyone’s a genius. They are and they are also incompetent.

And I think if we went into everything with that belief, maybe we would be more inclined to take the training wheels off. And what we mean by that is I don’t think anybody’s ever ready for the next assignment, the next project, right? We’re always in transitioning and there is a learning curve. And so if we could just say, look it, they’re not competent, they’re not gonna do it perfectly, and let’s just embrace that. I think we would be a lot quicker in engaging, utilizing, and developing employees in our organization. So how about that?

Bill Berthel: I love the Training Wheels analogy. Well, first I, I, I can relate to this completely. I don’t think I was ever fully ready for any position, any role, any job, any promotion. But yeah, there was willingness, right? There was excitement and willingness so that, that leaning in. And I love the analogy of training wheels and it makes me think so with, with our son, we never had training wheels to begin with on his bicycle. We utilized the kick bicycle model that’s pretty popular in Europe.

So it’s simply a, a little two wheeled with a frame that he could steer, but there’s no pedals to get in the way. The whole idea was to meet him where he was at his developmental level, to give him the confidence to be on two wheels to kick along. You know what? It never held him back. It never slowed us down as a family on our bike rides.

He was as fast as we were pedaling along cuz he was so excited to be there. And there was the natural transition then to a full two-wheeled bicycle with pedals. Never had a training wheel in his life. The kid.

Ralph Simone: So what I love about that example is that we create conditions of safety for people so they’re willing to take risks while learning.

Absolutely. So we don’t overthink, we don’t have the self to, oh, they’re not ready. What if it goes wrong? You know, we just, you know, take the training wheels off sooner and I think you’re gonna find. More engagement, faster learning, better utilization. I think you’re gonna find people who are happier, right?

It’s not leaving ’em alone to fail, but it is creating those conditions to get into action sooner. Because if we wait until somebody’s absolutely ready, we will be waiting forever.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, no, absolutely. So I think context is really important here. We’re we’re not necessarily talking about your heart surgeon or your brain surgeon.

We want them pretty capable and pretty ready. But what we are talking about is creating that safe environment, those opportunities for people to learn that they’re willing to have that vulnerability to potentially fail or not quite get it right, because that’s such a great learning opportunity.

Ralph Simone: No, it’s interesting, Bill.

So I fortunately or unfortunately, have the opportunity to be treated fairly regularly at a teaching hospital. Yes. And we have a procedure that’s done. I’ve graduated now, it looks like it’s gonna be every six months because I’m showing improvement. Awesome. Congratulations. The doctor has, A resident with him who has done this procedure less often and believe me, I can tell. And , you know, and he does give him the reins you know, the, and he asked my permission, of course, and a guy does it, the man or woman, not as well, but he’s learning and he’s getting feedback and that’s how he’s gonna be the proficient expert. Yes. And, and so even in those situations in a teaching hospital, there’s an opportunity to take the training wheels off.

If he just explains what he’s doing and doesn’t allow the guy to do the procedure, he’s not gonna learn it in the same way. One of the things that I think is a great tool, and we’ve taught people this around taking the training meals off, is the empowerment cycle. Mm-hmm. . There’s kind of an interesting story.

So we’ve, most people probably on this podcast know who Ken Blanchard is. He was the author of the One Minute Manager. He I think with Hersey and I think there’s another person, they created this situational leadership model years ago. Mm-hmm. But some of his students who I later studied with in an organization called Schreder Oak, they came up with this thing called the Empowerment Cycle.

And as the Empowerment Cycle was brilliant because it made, it gave us permission to make handoffs quicker. So instead of trying to figure out if Bill was ready or if I’m ready, they just gave us, here’s the task, here’s why it’s important, here’s when we need it, and then they got the heck out of the way for a little while.

Mm-hmm. Training wheels off, but the safety was provided that they would check in sooner rather than later. For me to describe how it was going, and based on that description, they could adjust how much support or direction they provided. But I think it’s a beautiful technique to get people into action quicker and to take the training wheels off.

Don’t overthink it. I think people paralyze themselves because they’re not ready. And, and I said to a leader the other day, you’re not ready for God’s sake. He didn’t really like that, but you know, for some of the stuff that you’re tackling, he certainly wasn’t ready for me. And so as, as you start to think about this, we’ve, we’ve got to be more willing to take calculated risks and allow people to learn through the experience, through the experience.

Bill Berthel: So where might our listeners practice this empowerment cycle? What have you seen showing. recently with leaders having an opportunity to practice this empowerment cycle?

Ralph Simone: I think anytime a leader is overwhelmed or overloaded with tasks, it’s a perfect opportunity to say, let’s take a few tasks that maybe are moderate risk and let’s just give them to people.

Yes. And just be mindful of building in the check-in period sooner rather than later, so that you can guide, right? But you’re kinda letting people run. You’re taking the training wheels off and you’re letting them surprise you. I think people are often pleasantly surprised. I just had a, a coaching meeting on Tuesday and the guy said I was reluctant to let go of this task.

The guy is doing it better than I would’ve ever done it, and yet it took him two or three meetings and a lot of prodding to just let ’em run. No, I love that. Right? Just be prepared to be delighted. So one indicator might be that your own to-do list, your own sense of being whelmed or overwhelmed is getting kind of full, kind of high.

Look for some low to moderate risk opportunities that you could delegate off. Give a little bit of time, not a lot, a little bit of time. Create the safety by checking in to see how that’s going. To see what questions they have to see just how it’s progressing.

Yes. Yeah. And just, you know, I was, there’s a number of stories.

I was thinking about all the jobs I’ve ever had, of which I was ready for none. I was a resident assistant in college. Yeah. That give be a little trend. I wasn’t ready for that. Right. I made, I had a willingness, I had a curiosity, but I wasn’t ready for that. I was a buyer negotiating million dollar contracts at the age of 21.

Wasn’t ready for that. . Mm. I was a foreman I couldn’t build a single thing, right? And so as you get into these things, you’re given the time. I got tasks and assignments that were really stretch, but those were the things that energized me. Those were the things that got me asking questions. And I think it requires this growth mindset that there will be learning, right?

And growth throughout the process. We’ve gotta let go of the perfect outcome.

Bill Berthel: That’s exactly it, right? The maybe the 80% rule where you know, it does not have to be absolutely perfect each time. I think we also have to let go of some tendencies to control. I, so, you know, quick example at my home, I’m pretty handy.

I like to do most of my home improvement projects myself. We bought two new overhead garage doors for the garage. My wife and my to-do list really influenced me to have them installed. I, I’ve installed garage doors before in my past and I decided I would have them installed and boy, what a relief that was.

But you know what? One of those garage doors has failed three times since. And I gotta tell you, what’s playing in my mind was I should have done it myself. I should have done it myself, but that would’ve helped me back. That would’ve helped me back in practicing not having that perfection, not having the control.

And you know what, I got a lot done, a lot more important things done in that time that I would’ve been installing garage doors.

Ralph Simone: So the unfortunate thing, potential unfortunate thing is that when things go sideways or not as we thought they could have, yeah, we put the training wheels back, back on You got it.

Yeah. And, and I think that’s one of the things. So I think this idea of letting go of control, I, I just recently, and I, I know the client didn’t really appreciate it, but he goes, well, they’re not gonna be able to do it as, as well as I can. I said, how long you been doing it? He goes, 15 years. I said, well then you can be assured that the first time out of the blocks.

Right. But is that your goal? Remember story from Stephen Covey when he first turned over the stewardship to his son for the lawn? Yeah. Cutting the grass. Yeah.

Yeah. In the vision, the intention was clean and green. Well, you know, the kid, first time he’s using a lawnmower . Right? He cuts it too low. He doesn’t cut straight lines and you know, Covey took the training wheels off, but he, he was gonna take the job back and his wife reminded him, what’s the job, Stephen? Grow grass or grow boys? Yes. And so we think about our job as leaders. We take the training wheels off because our job is to grow other leaders. It’s to grow a high performing organization.

It’s to create these conditions of safety and empowerment that people don’t ask for permission. They tell you what they’ve learned. Skinned and all. They tell you what they’ve learned and, and I think we’ve gotta stop complaining that we don’t have enough people, that people aren’t picking up the ball. We need to give them the ball.

We need to take the training wheels off and we need to drive engagement and utilization. And be delighted by what happens most of the time.

Bill Berthel: And you can listen right here to a new podcast two times a month where we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas, balanced with better practices you can apply to your leadership.

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Prefer to read the transcript?

Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. Our podcast is focused on individual, team and organizational development and performance. We focus on topics such as leadership, human development, raising consciousness, and awareness. We aim to provide creative concepts, new ideas, and pragmatic tips and practices for leaders in all walks of life.

I’m Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone. And today we’re gonna be talking about leader as coach and I hope that doesn’t put us out of business, but what do we mean by this idea of leader as coach Bill?

Bill Berthel: I love that challenge of putting us out of business. I think that’s actually part of our mission is that if we were no longer needed, right, the leadership in every organization, would be reaching their potential.

Let, let’s talk about this coaching modality, right? What, what coaching is to begin with. Leaders who coach really aren’t too different we think than athletic coaches. They’re capable and regularly practice highly directive and highly supportive leadership behaviors. We gotta talk about what that looks like, Ralph, and I know you’ve got a lot to contribute to today’s conversation, right?

Directive behaviors, directive behaviors.

Ralph Simone: I think people are hesitant just because of the word to tell people what’s needed, why it’s important to the organization, and when it’s needed by. You use the example of a sports coach. Those things are all very clear and in some cases how to do it. In some cases, our role is to instruct people. And I was kinda laughing when we first started because I remember when I first added coaching to my business 20 years ago. You know, my father wanted to know what sport, right, exactly. But it is the sport of corporate performance and, and I think that while there are some differences, if we really looked at the leaders coach model from the world of sports, I think both our performance and our consciousness would increase significantly.

Would you agree?

Bill Berthel: No, I love it. I love it. You know, I think when clarity, when structure, maybe fundamentals and direction is needed, a good leader, coach doesn’t hesitate and they know just the right amount to dial in the right amount of direction. Right? Too much. And you’re that micromanager. I think that’s some of the hesitation.

We don’t wanna micromanage, we don’t wanna over control. Too little, you’re causing unnecessary ambiguity and confusion.

Ralph Simone: We wanna find the sweet spot. Yeah. And I think we find the sweet spot through experimentation, but what you can’t do is not do it. Now, we talked about directive, but you used another word leader as coach, supportive, and And what do we mean by supportive behavior?

Bill Berthel: Yeah, so supportive behavior. So a 87% of American workforce is moderately to highly capable, meaning their skills, their knowledge, their abilities are proficient or better, however, their commitment to the tasks at hand are moderately to highly variable, and this shouldn’t be a surprise to the vast majority of our listeners, actually, Ralph, us too.

We’re not immune to this. 87% of us are on a commitment variability, meaning it can be up and down. That variability and commitment is caused by many, many things, personal and professional challenges, mental and physical health, family and coworkers. Matter of fact, new data coming from Forbes just published by Forbes Magazine last month suggests that for almost 70% of the people, their manager has more impact on their mental health than their therapist or their doctor, and it’s equal to the impact of their partner.

So if you’re a leader, your impact on people’s commitment is significant, is really significant.

Ralph Simone: Well, that changes the willingness of a lot of people wanting to be leaders because it’s a really important job and I was thinking about this variable commitment, right? I mean, I’m more engaged, I’m more committed if I am interested in it. Absolutely. I know the running joke in our firm is that I don’t do anything that I’m not interested in . And I, my reply is, what’s wrong with that? And because I think part of it is I’m, the stuff I do, I’m extremely engaged in. Yes. And I think, and I think that my, my commitment is higher, but I think what we’re saying is leader as coach has to recognize this mix of competence and commit and use these directive and supportive behaviors to get the most out of those that he or she leads.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely. So leader as coach on that supportive side, right? First you’re available. Right? And working remotely is not an excuse for not being available. I’m sorry if, I think if I’ve had a nickel for every time I’ve heard that I’d be an incredibly rich man.

Remote relationships present some unique challenge. However, connecting through technology for work is roughly equivalent to connecting in person. The research shows if we’re intentional about utilizing the tech to connect, right, and after being available and making those connections leaders support by asking essential questions that are empowering and open, what a great way to be supportive.

Ralph Simone: I think this is something that we all can get better at. And I just heard when working with a client yesterday, she was quizzing her CEO as to what she needed to get better at, and he said asking questions that lead to insight in understanding. I love that. So if you think about that from an athletic coach or a corporate coach, a leader, when we ask those questions, right, somebody gets insights, a different way of doing it, a more effective way of doing it, and they understand why, so they connect the dots. Now you’ve got engagement. Now you’ve got commitment. And then the focus can be on constant improvement.

Bill Berthel: Love that. Love that. Supportive behavior also looks like. Well, I think it’s what the obvious might be and support is we create as coaches, as leaders, we create that caring connection.

We personalize and humanize the relationship, appropriately of course, but we don’t have to have a best friend at work, but we demonstrate genuine sense of care and connection. I was coaching a young leader recently, and this exact topic came up, you know, one of our conversations and he asked me, so like, what if I really don’t care, he wasn’t being mean, but he would say he wanted to be authentic, he wanted to be genuine, and I asked him how he might start thinking about a caring practice.

What type of connection would he be interested in, right? And that, that reframing question right? Turn what might look impossible to possible. Sure. He found himself resisting at first. Right. This isn’t a Goldilocks kinda story, but leaning into the idea, he intentionally started creating, connecting conversations by asking how his employees’ hobbies were developing, how their kids were doing and school or dance.

How their spouse was enjoying their new vehicle, you know, stuff that he could connect to. And he said, he came back and said, this is really making a difference in my leadership and when we get to talk about work, it’s a natural flow into that, and there’s more engagement. People are leaning in instead of being a little apprehensive.

Ralph Simone: Well, I think, you know, brilliant way of walking through it and you know, just starting with, well, what does he care about or what do we care about individuals. But this artificial separation, you know, we do work with some athletic coaches and they, they’re looking to develop the whole person, their players, not just as leaders on the court or on the field of play, but if they’re in college, also in the classroom, and also in the community.

So I think the other thing that leader, coach, we look at someone holistically. Yes. You know, we look at you know, people, you know, I think Plato said, and I’ll paraphrase this, we come into this world whole, but we need others to complete us . And I think when you have that paradigm as a leader, or as a teammate, you see how the interdependence and you see the importance.

So first of all, we, we are affirming and we appreciate the wholeness that people bring. And by their, our interactions with them, we actually help them to become more complete. And I think to me, that’s leader as coach, we become catalysts for people stepping into their full potential.

Bill Berthel: I love that. Leaders who take that active interest in developing others are leader coaches.

Not every leader has either had access to the coach’s clipboard or best practices or relevant context to practice in. And not every leader has had a good coach, and we hope this podcast assists leaders in this direction. I’d be remiss if I didn’t suggest hiring a leadership coach, right? You can learn a lot by hiring a leadership coach and and emulate some of those behaviors and activities that your coach does with you that you get to see that modeled and experience that yourself.

Ralph Simone: And I think, you know, we need to always come back to it is about improving performance, improving awareness, improving morale and culture. We, we have this improvement mindset and we use holding the space for people, asking open-ended, empowering questions and offering a perspective because we all have blind spots.

And just like a coach will, you know, we’re, we’re in March Madness right now as we do this podcast. A coach is gonna call a player off to the side, put their arm around them, you know, let ’em know something they need to change real time in the game. It’s that, we don’t always see ourselves cleanly.

And so when someone can offer us that perspective, which helps us perform at a higher level, everybody benefits.

Bill Berthel: Love that. So directive and supportive behaviors are essential. Being able to provide some perspective is really helpful. Learning to ask open and empowering questions. Again, essential as the leader as coach, good coaches ask as much or more than they tell perhaps.

But when people are stuck, right, when people that we’re coaching are stuck, leader coaches reframe, reframing is asking questions that make the seemingly impossible more possible, or at least approachable. And Ralph, I know you’ve got some really great reframing techniques. What are some of your favorites?

What has been effective in in your coaching?

Ralph Simone: Well, and , this is a question that I use in coaching of my clients as well as my kids. And how could we make this situation worse? Yes. And, and you know, one of the things you’re we’re intending to do with reframing is shifting the energy. And creating an opening for people to look at something from a different lens.

And if you know how to make something worse, we can also conclude that you can make it better. But usually when I ask that question, people laugh. or they go, what the, you know, and taken advantage. So immediately you get a shift in energy and consciousness. It was interesting when you were talking about, you know we can connect remotely, but if people feel they can’t, then I got a simple solution.

Get yourself physically into the space, right? Absolutely. Yeah. What could you do differently, or what is another way of looking at that is a good reframing question. There’s one I’ve asked recently, right? What would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail? Love that. So when you take failure off the table, you actually get people to consider the actions. So there’s a lot of ways, right? We wanna help people uncover the blocks that are keeping them from taking a step.

Bill Berthel: It’s really about putting a different frame on it. That term reframing actually comes from visual arts, where we take a slightly different perspective on roughly the same image.

We’re not changing the whole context or the topic. We’re not trying to change the subject. We’re just taking a slightly different angle so we can see it through a different lens, get a different frame around it to see what might be around a blind spot, what might be around a particular hangup that we have.

And I love the two kind of, I think of almost, almost as extremes, like, right, what if you couldn’t fail? What if you know success was guaranteed? And the first one you shared. How can you make it worse? Like what?

Ralph Simone: Yeah. How can you muck it up more? Because I mean, you’re already in this deep yogurt, let’s make it worse because it’s, you see no alternative.

Right? Because oftentimes when you do that, they start to say, wait a minute, there’s gotta be a way. Right. Which is the opening that we’re looking for. And I think leader as coach, sees beyond the illusion of the person’s current perception. Yes. And offers up possibilities. Sometimes reframing is I’ll actually physically have somebody move.

Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Let’s just take a look at this from over here. Yes. And just that shift, right? That frame, that movement causes them to look at it slightly differently. And again, it might not be a breakthrough, but it’s the beginning of a breakthrough. Right? All breakthroughs are break withs. A reframing question creates the opportunity to have a, a break with a limiting current thought. Beautiful, beautiful. And that’s what’s really powerful.

Bill Berthel: You know, leaders as coaches are really aiming at action. They’re interested in results or achievement and it’s not simply a conversation. It’s a conversation towards some actionable item or some commitment, and the coach plays a role in accountability in that we create the environment for accountability to that new action, that new call to action.

Ralph Simone: Yeah, I think this idea of performance, right? The intention of moving people closer to what they’re aiming at, absolutely. We wanna help them pay attention or focus on things that will help them get there.

And we want to heighten their awareness of what might be getting in the way and how they’re getting distracted. But we’re still all about performance. You know, we wanna move the ball forward. And I think the other thing, leaders as coach, I really do think more leaders should take a chapter out of sports coaches.

The feedback is frequent. Yes. it’s positive, it’s constructive. We’re not kicking the can, you know, down the road. We’re not waiting till the end of the year to give corrective feedback, you know, because our intention is to be helpful, and the sooner someone knows something good and or less than optimal, they’re now at a choice point.

And that’s what we want to get people to, is the choice point around actions that will move them closer to their intended outcome.

Bill Berthel: Love it. We started this podcast with, you know, jokingly, well, maybe this could put us out of business and not to turn this into a commercial, but we do train leaders to be coaches.

We provide opportunities for individuals, leaders, to understand the proven emergent coaching methodology, coaching way if you will, where they receive personalized and unique coaching experience themselves. They learn the fundamentals of coaching, put it into actual practice, and get feedback from master Emergent coaches.

It allows leaders to practice in their real life environment. It allows them to work on organizationally relevant practices, problems, challenges, and improvements?

Ralph Simone: Well, I love the word practice. It came up a couple of times to get good at anything that requires consistent practice, you know, so before they sign up for our course and our process, which enables them to practice and really become a proficient leader as coach, what suggestions might we give them in the interim?

What are some things that as a leader, I can do immediately that will help me be more effective as a coach for my people.

Bill Berthel: At the heart of coaching is really creating first that safe space where people can openly share, where they can really talk about what might be either challenging them or what they’re not quite getting right, or where they’re stuck or hung up on something.

So first, it’s really about creating that space, and then from there it’s deep listening. , it’s listening first before any type of response, even before asking questions. It’s a really deep sense of listening, acknowledging and validating what you’re hearing, what you’re listening to, so that individual feels that connection in an authentic, genuine way.

From there, we get to ask questions. Open and empowering, right? Open questions are typically difficult to answer, yes or no, right? They’re not those closed questions. I, we can answer any question. I think yes or no, but they’re difficult to answer. Yes or no. They’re open, they’re inviting, they’re full of discovery, and they’re empowering.

They’re about what that individual might do, could do, would think of next, and then listen again.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. Which makes me think of one thing that everybody could do immediately after this podcast is work on becoming genuinely more curious. Love it. Because I think that genuine curiosity with some training around what and how questions leads to more effective questioning when you are coaching an individual.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. So every opportunity is not a coaching opportunity. If you’re in a situation where it is a quick answer is needed. There’s an important urgent thing to solve in that moment. It’s not necessarily a coaching opportunity. We’re not suggesting a silver bullet in coaching, but where are those missed opportunities to connect deeper through curiosity, listening and asking those open, empowering questions.

Ralph Simone: Bill, I think when, when you open, I think sharing information in a directive way could be considered a form of coaching. So it’s not absolutely the same as the asking and the deep listening, but it is actually saying, here’s what we need to do and why and when it’s needed by going back to the directive behavior.

And so in some instances, situationally, that may be the correct solution.

Bill Berthel: I love it. So leader coaches get to engage their team at a deeper, higher level. They increase retention and higher levels of engagement happen, right? Talent are some of the most important elements, I hate to say assets of an organization, but leader coaches are some of the most attractive leaders.

They’re a leadership force that people really want to work with and follow, and it’s a. Interesting talent, attractant, you know, so a, a lot of organizations are challenged today either retaining or attracting talent. You know, leaders as coaches become just absolutely, if I can use the positive version of viral in a community, they become viral in that good way.

People want to work with leaders that coach.

Ralph Simone: Just a story I thought about, and it might sound a little self promotional, but I remember our managing partner, Cathy Gaynor, she told me early on when she started working for me and, and she started working really just to get appointments, business development appointments.

She goes, I, I was almost shocked when you asked me, well, what do you think? Yeah. For what ideas do you have? And, I go, what do you mean? She goes, I never was asked that where I used to. In, in my mind, I couldn’t, it doesn’t make sense not to ask that because she brings a different perspective. She had an energy about her that I, I knew she had some ideas.

And I was almost floored when she said that she, and she said it recently, she said, I was surprised when you asked me What? What do you think? Well, why wouldn’t you as a leader wanna know what your people think? Because it’s probably different from you and I, I like to be very pragmatic about this. I want different perspectives so we can get a better answer.

Yeah, we have different perspectives, so I got people who are enjoying what they’re doing and feel valued and part of the team, and I think not only is it the right thing to do, I think it’s a very pragmatic thing to do, to be leader as coach in strengthening performance engagement culture and morale.

Bill Berthel: Ralph, beautiful example.

Good stuff, Ralph. Good stuff. And you can listen right here to a new podcast two times every month where we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas, balanced with better practices you can apply to your leadership.

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The natural stages of leadership are discovery, growth, maturity and legacy. This “lifecycle” is an important sequence of steps that can’t be accelerated. Rather, each stage must be embraced and nurtured as a leader gradually develops on the path to his or her full potential. What stage are you in? And how can you best make the transitions from one stage to another? Listen as Bill and Ralph discuss and offer suggestions to effectively manage your leadership lifecycle.

Prefer to read the transcript?Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors.Bill Berthel:* Welcome to the Get Emergent Podcast, where we discuss leadership concepts and best practices. We like to provide ideas, concepts, and pragmatic experiments to help you develop as a leader. I’m Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone. If today, I just can’t wait. I couldn’t wait for today, we’re gonna be talking about a topic that I have no idea yet what I’m gonna say.

The life cycle of a leader. So, can you tell me what we mean by that so I can contribute?

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. So I think you know that old story, I think a lot of people have heard the story about the little boy that finds the butterfly cocoon, you know, maybe it was attached to a branch and it blew down in a storm, and he’s super curious.

He doesn’t even know what he has. He’s really curious about this cocoon that he finds and he holds it in his hand and the warmth of his hand starts to make the cocoon wiggle a little bit, right? He notices in a small crack, he figures out what he has and he’s so curious. Well, telling the rest of the [00:01:00] story is just morbid, isn’t it?

Right? We know that he forces the cocoon open prematurely and well, that’s not so good for the butterfly. Everything has a life cycle, and this can sound awfully morbid Sometimes we don’t think about this biological model too frequently in relationship to leadership, and I think it really could serve us as leaders to think about the natural stages of a leader, the life cycle of a leader.

Ralph Simone: So when we talk about it, are we talking about it in terms of helping leaders make the necessary transition?

Are we talking about it to help them think of evolution of their leadership and are we also thinking about it so that they don’t have an expiration date?

Bill Berthel: Well, let’s not go to the expiration date. Maybe there’s a best-used-by date. No, no, totally joking. I think the first piece, you said, Ralph, right?

There’s an important order. Maybe it’s an evolution, but it’s an important sequence that just like the cocoon can’t [00:02:00] be prematurely accelerated. Each step, each phase of this growth or development. If we think of it as that, a development cycle, really needs its appropriate time and development to get to that next level of leadership.

Ralph Simone: So for example, there’s self-leadership as an individual contributor. Love it. And then you become a supervisor for the first time. Is that the next stage in the life cycle of leadership? And if so, what does that individual need to be mindful of to be successful?

Bill Berthel: So, yeah, I think so. I think we could really relate to those traditional, almost hierarchical steps that might take place, right?

You might start an organization as an individual contributor, not necessarily, but oftentimes we start there in an organization and then with some potential, which leadership potential really means the ability for future work, the likelihood, right, for that [00:03:00] future work. There might be some potential noticed in you as an individual contributor, and you may move to the role of a supervisor where now perhaps you’re not just responsible for your individual contribution, but your success might then be measured through the success of others.

That could be one step, right? In this cycle or in this phase. When we look at the biological models, there’s often four or five stages in a life cycle, and now I think we can learn something from that to not overcomplicate the leadership life cycle model, if you will, that we can look at, you know, kind of an earlier stage, like in biological models.

This is often birth or the beginning and so you know, where does that start for the leader? It might be just what we were talking about, that first opportunity to self-lead and then move into leadership with and of others. So in biology, it’s often thought of as birth, but I think in [00:04:00] leadership it’s discovery.

We’re really discovering our own capacity and potential for leadership, and it’s getting noticed by others in the organization.

Ralph Simone: Well, it almost seems that we’re sometimes discovering that we need to do different things or do something differently in order to be successful in that new transition. And so it’s really the birth of new skills.

Bill Berthel: Really is new skills, new ways of working, right?

New metrics of success, right? Building success with and through others, you know? So typically after birth comes growth, right? That growth part of the cycle. Oftentimes, that’s one of the most significant in time we think for leaders, it’s all about growth or development. If we call it the development phase of the cycle, and arguably development never stops.

But this is really that early second phase of focused development of the leader, intentional focused, development of that leader. The continued practice of leadership [00:05:00] to the attainment of mastery, if we wanted to call it that higher level of development.

Ralph Simone: So if we go back to the little boy example with the cocoon, there’s gotta be an element of curiosity to kind of fuel this ongoing growth and development, along with the patience, it seems like, not to accelerate the process too much.

Bill Berthel: So I think that’s perhaps what we sometimes don’t quite get, right. I think we, uh, and me included, I’m not throwing stones here, me included, as we sometimes want it a little faster than it’s coming more naturally.

Perhaps it’s less of a mindset of giving ourselves the opportunity to practice. And, uh, it’s a little bit more of, so what’s the next step? Right? What’s the next step? In the book Transitions by William Bridges, uh, he shows one of my favorite quotes, not in his goals, but in his transitions. Man is Great, and I love that idea.

It’s not necessarily about those goals, but it’s in how we [00:06:00] transition and making sure that we’re patient in that curiosity and taking time to have those transitions, those meaningful transitions in our development.

Ralph Simone: So there’s discovery, growth. What would you suggest is the next life cycle of leadership?

Bill Berthel: I think it’s maturity. The maturity of the leader means that they’re well developed, not finished developing. I don’t, I’m not suggesting the steps in the life cycle, just like in a biological life cycle, that organism is still living through that whole cycle, but in maturity the leader is very well developed and now investing time and energy in actively developing others, right?

This is the coach, this is the mentor. So it’s that next step of really focusing on developing, scaling his or her leadership through the development of others.

Ralph Simone: So this might be a stretch, but it’s reminding me of Covey’s work in the seven habits, in the maturity continuum. There are three levels of maturity.

There’s dependence. We all come into this world dependent, [00:07:00] then we learn some skills to become independent. But the highest level of maturity in his continuum is interdependence. where we do it together. The other made up word that we’ve been talking around a lot about lately, we right me and we combined. So at that level of maturity, we see the interdependence, we see our role, sounds like, changing to be more a developer of people than a doer of things at that point.

Bill Berthel: I don’t think that’s a stretch at all. I think that’s exactly it. Covey’s life cycle model. I’m putting air quotes around that Our, our listeners can’t see that. That has three phases. and that most mature phase is that interdependency.

That’s borrowed from natural life cycles as well. So oftentimes the mature individuals of that species are truly helping that entire, whatever it is, heard or flock to be able to survive by passing on not just its genes, but its abilities, it’s skills, it’s knowledge. It’s truly happening [00:08:00] in the natural world.

Ralph Simone: So mentoring and transfer of knowledge, right? For sustainability. So then is there a cycle after maturity?

Bill Berthel: There is, and we believe it’s legacy. This fourth phase is closely related to that previous maturity phase, but this is focused on legacy and you know, leaders who attain this phase, they’re legacy focused in that they’re actively securing the environment, the resources, the people for sustainability of what they’ve built or have contributed to.

It’s not only instilling leadership in others, but it’s also leaving what will be needed for those future generations of people to really carry on that mission, carry on that work, carry on. That leadership.

Ralph Simone: Sounds like an element of selflessness. It sounds like being a good steward of what you will be leaving behind, and it sounds like something that people look at towards the end of their career as a result of being it the end of the life cycle. [00:09:00]

Bill Berthel: I think that’s certainly one way to look at it. I think many leaders have, I’m gonna say multiple lives, putting air quotes around that, where they may experience these phases in an organization and then move to another organization and experience something like those phases yet again.

So I don’t think it’s necessarily attached to age, but it could be attached to experience.

Ralph Simone: So as I’m thinking about this, I’m wondering, you know, with those four cycles in mind, you know, what guidance, what suggestions would we make to leaders as they make those transitions? As I was asking the question, I was thinking of, maybe you should start out earlier by thinking about the legacy so that it informs your thinking and your growth and development in each of the previous phases, what? What would you share?

Bill Berthel: Well, so I think that’s one of the wisest use of models, right? Back to Covey, keeping the end in mind. [00:10:00] And so it’s being highly aware of an intentional of that ending. You know, in this case, if it’s a legacy-driven leadership, you know, or perhaps it’s a maturity-ending leader.

in the current role that you’re in, in the organization and you’re seeking your next chapter in a, in a different organization. I think the first step is really identifying where you are in the model and being able to have that opportunity to focus on, you know, so what does that mean for me in my leadership?

And if I’m very early, either in my role in my organization or early in my leadership career. That sounds like discovery. So what is it about leadership? How do I attach to my values, my vision, my leadership purpose? So I’m stepping into this space authentically. If you identify more with that development phase where you’re in that growth phase, and my gut is the majority of leaders listening, are probably in that phase, it’s about the intentional development of your leadership skills and [00:11:00] abilities.

What would it take to close the gap on specific leadership attributes that are important and meaningful to you? So I think it’s identifying with your own state in that lifecycle path.

Ralph Simone: So it seems like there would be different skills, different application of time and energy. Perhaps different work values that would be emphasized in each of these different stages or cycles. Is that true?

Bill Berthel: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think each one brings unique focus that builds upon the last and prepares for the next.

Ralph Simone: How would we suggest to organizations or leaders, you know, the application of this and how to use it to help scale their leadership, raise their consciousness in, improve the performance of their organizations, what would we suggest?

Bill Berthel: So we’re big fans of, you know, clarifying some expectations, right? Let’s just clarify what, what are the expectations of my [00:12:00] leadership in my role in my organization? And then identifying for myself as a leader. What do I expect from my leadership? I think it’s really important. It’s being intentional with those expectations.

Keeping it simple. It’s not about over complicating this. I think identifying where we are in the life cycle to really attach to, you know, what can I do? Let’s keep that simple. You know, we can be comprehensive about that. But we wanna make sure that we’re not over complicating it. Let’s have the conversations with those around us, those that we’re leading and those that are leading us.

Let’s have those meaningful conversations. Focus on a few development items. It does not have to be a large list of 10 or 12 things. You know, focus on an essential one or two items that you’ll be developing or, focusing on wherever you are in this life.

Ralph Simone: Earlier you talked about Bridge’s, work on transitions.

What would be some indicators that people are either struggling with or [00:13:00] are handling the transition from one of these cycles to the next? What would we be looking for?

Bill Berthel: So what I so appreciate about Bridge’s work in transitions is that he kinda flips it for the way many of us think, is that the next best step is actually identifying and cherishing the ending of the previous step. And in first doing that, that’s a strategic pause that causes us to just slow down a bit and enter that space of intentional reflection. Here’s why we avoid this space, sometimes it can be a little confusing as Bridges shares. It doesn’t feel as actionable as jumping to the next opportunity.

And that’s why we take this strategic pause. And then we have the opportunity to really create a better new beginning. And so it flips it for me because I like to, and as I think many of us do, is what’s next? Jump to that next. That next opportunity.

Ralph Simone: It reminds me [00:14:00] right, that was a line from the West Wing that the president was always saying, what’s next?

Right? We’re always on to the next thing. So one of the things that came up for me when you’re talking about that, is one of the reasons people have trouble letting go of what they used to do in effectively transitioning into this new life cycle of leadership is they haven’t celebrated or ritualized the letting go or the ending of that previous phase. And it is almost like what we do right, in some religions with when someone dies, right. It provides an opportunity to celebrate the life to let go so that you can move forward.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely, identifying with it, recognizing I love celebrating it, right? Ritualizing it.

Sometimes these endings could be a series of endings where we’re missing that. There are multiple either relationships or things ending in that. Making sure that we’re complete in that is important as well, so we can start our next phase or start our next [00:15:00] opportunity more creatively, more informed and ready for what that next opportunity truly brings.

Ralph Simone: Hmm. So you’ve offered throughout this podcast a couple of suggestions for leaders and organizations. Any other suggestions to make around looking at the lifecycle of leadership, looking at this lens through these four cycles of development?

Bill Berthel: So this may be projecting some of my own concerns or resistance too much, but I’m going to share it.

I think we started with this idea of this life cycle of a leader, potentially. I think you said it in jest having an expiration date. It’s not focusing on that. It’s focusing on where am I in this and what is my next best opportunity? How am I bringing others with me? How am I growing and developing others if I’m at that stage?

And I think that’s a weak, if I think most of us are at that stage of bringing others with us. And then, you know, lastly, how am I [00:16:00] ensuring through a legacy mindset or keeping the end in mind that I’m setting up that either future generation or those next individuals with success.

Ralph Simone: I think I may have said it in jest, but I’ve been getting the question a lot because of used best by date of people.

When are you retiring? Or you know, my kids, how are you remaining relevant? And I think there’s some social mirror pressure around that, but I think as long as you identify what phase or what cycle you’re in, and maybe my takeaway from this is making sure I’m bringing other people along for the sustainability and scalability of our organization, because I think I am in the maturity, legacy phases of that life cycle.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. That’s great. Well, there’s a lot of research that suggests those expiration dates don’t have much value, so I wouldn’t worry about ’em too much.

Ralph Simone: Oh, I’m glad. So you could still use me past this date and I still might be okay? I love it. I love it.

Bill Berthel: I think it’s true for most [00:17:00] things, except your carton of milk maybe is what I heard.

Ralph Simone: All right. All right. Well that, that gives me encouragement.

Bill Berthel: thanks for listening to the Get Emergent podcast. And you can listen to a new podcast two times a month here at Get Emergent, where we bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas, balanced with best practices you can apply in your leadership.

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Why don’t some leaders ever reach their full potential? It’s often because they control, protect and comply – behaviors that are rooted in fear. Today, Bill and Ralph break down and define those behaviors and explain how they hold some leaders back. Are you relying too heavily on them? And if so, how can you lead differently and more effectively? Listen and find out.

Prefer to read the transcript?

Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent Podcast. Our podcasts are focused on individual team and organizational development. We focus on leadership topics and provide concepts, ideas, and pragmatic tips and practices for all leaders. I’m Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone. And today we’re gonna talk about the business we’re in, which is the people development business.

And Bill, we work with a lot of leaders who. Reach their full potential in organizations, and I’d like to explore why that is.

Bill Berthel: So first I wanna say that’s not a reflection on our effectiveness as a business.

Ralph Simone: Oh, no, no, no. Actually, we only work with a few leaders. I’m not sure. Absolutely. Yeah. That, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. Good call. Good catch.

Bill Berthel: No, but it’s because as human beings, We’re motivated basically in two directions. This is the work of BF Skinner, kind of thought of as a great-grandfather of motivational psychology. And you know, he suggested that we’re either attracted moving towards something or we’re avoiding moving away from something.

And you know, the primary reason that leaders become either ineffective in their role or don’t reach their potential is because they control, protect, or comply too much In their leadership, they rely on these, what’s called reactive tendencies that are rooted in fear and concern.

Ralph Simone: I, I wanna defend my opening line.

By the way. If we, if we think of what Kier Guard said, that we are always in the process of becoming Absolutely. I think that none of us actually ever realize our full potential. But Bill, of those three things you said, why, in addition to fear, I mean, why do people control, protect and comply?

Bill Berthel: well, there’s a lot of good reasons, right?

So it’s not to criminalize these behaviors because they can be effective and they are at times needed. However, what we know about these fear-based behaviors is that the energetic cost has a lower return on investment than being more creative in our leadership. And by creative what I mean is that we are focusing on moving towards, relating and achieving more effectively in our work, in our organizations.

Ralph Simone: So I’m wondering, I, you just triggered something for me. So protect, I remember hearing this a long time ago that the 10 biggest fears in number one is fear of public speaking. Yes. Number four is dying. That’s right. That’s right. So people would rather die. Then get up in front of a group and speak.

And so would that be an example of protecting, you know what, what, what do we

Bill Berthel: It is, yeah, the protect, the protection mechanism there in the context of what we’re talking about today. It’s about protecting one’s identity. It’s about protecting the sense of who self is. And we do that in different ways. We might distance ourselves, it might be arrogance, but your example of the fear of public speaking being greater than death is as far as we know, you know, once we die, there’s no more finding out who I really am. So I’m safer there than as I speak and you disagree with me, well, that’s a vulnerable space to be in.

Ralph Simone: So it doesn’t necessarily mean that at some subconscious level, I was embarrassed sometime publicly, but it could mean that?

Bill Berthel: It could mean that.

But most generally in the context of protection, it’s about not being vulnerable enough to, so we’re protecting our identity.

Ralph Simone: It doesn’t seem like it would be much fun to work in an organization. That had a lot of compliance, a lot of protection, and a lot of control. I mean, if I think about engagement, that’s certainly not an environment that I would thrive in.

Bill Berthel: So I would agree. And of course every organization and every relationship needs some level of these from a healthy boundary and a safety perspective. But the point here is that leaders that don’t reach their potential or ineffective in their roles, are relying too heavily on these three areas of protecting, complying, and controlling.

Ralph Simone: What would be an example of what organizations overdue in this area of control, for example?

Bill Berthel: So control is really around controlling the processes or the work itself, the topics, the things that are being done. So it might be about not giving enough autonomy. Where appropriate. Now, of course, we need standard operating procedures and we need to be able to have processes that we can follow to get consistency.

That’s not what I’m arguing against for a moment. However, we might be controlling people too much and not providing some autonomy for there creative contributions to come forward. We might be controlling processes far too much to allow growth and development to happen. True innovation to surface. Mm mm And so it’s that type of controlling.

Ralph Simone: We’ve actually seen in some organizations that are fairly creative and fairly innovative on their design of product.

Not so creative and innovative in all their support services, like support is seems to be more governed by not what’s possible, but what we need to do to comply and control and protect, and it almost feels like it’s incongruent with what the overall organization is intending to achieve.

Bill Berthel: So I think in that incongruency, many people can get confused or have a sense of feeling that either the leader or leadership isn’t being authentic or having integrity.

Ralph Simone: Hmm. Could that be an accurate interpretation?

Bill Berthel: Yeah. I think sometimes it is. I, I, I like to believe that very few, if any, leaders are doingthis intentionally or purposely. It’s really what we’ve come to know as kind of safe ways of operating. And I’ll go back to what I said earlier, even in these safe ways of operating, we can be effective, we can get things done, we can really be very successful in many measurements.

However, the energetic cost is going to be really high.

Ralph Simone: So it sounds like we want leaders to become more aware of how their behaviors are perhaps un resourcefully influenced by too much compliance, too much protection, and too much control.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, that’s really it. An awareness of where are these, again, reactive tendencies.

They’re more immediate, they may feel more natural, or first for us, where are they showing up? What might I be afraid of that I’m protecting, controlling, or applying for?

Ralph Simone: Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about, I have had 360 s done that look at these areas and one of my lower scores. Right? So it’s not, it’s not something that will help me step further into my potential is protecting or being distant. Hmm. And I was reflecting on this and I think it was, uh, influenced by my early days in corporate procurement. Hmm. You kept your cards close to your vest, you didn’t wanna share too much information because that might make you vulnerable. That might actually, Result in a bad deal for the company.

So I think really looking deeply at what beliefs or thoughts are driving that behavior would be critical not to get stuck in too much of these areas, which could be energetically draining.

Bill Berthel: I think that’s beautiful. You know, we, we haven’t really talked about complying yet, but like you, I’ve taken similar 360 s and my low scores, or my areas for better awareness is usually around complying.

And in this context, complying is about protecting the relationship. Hmm. It’s about complying, it’s perhaps acquiescing or not being fully authentic, out of fear of harming the relationship.

Ralph Simone: Uh, so it’s not following the culture of the company necessarily. It’s beyond that. It’s holding back beyond kind of the norms in behaviors of the culture.

Bill Berthel: Holding back is perfect, Ralph. It is a holding back. It’s an avoidance of being fully authentic or fully one’s self at a fear of harming the relationship, not at a fear of being seen as self, but thinking I won’t necessarily be agreed with, accepted, embraced, or understood. And so the protection mechanism is protecting the relationship so it can stay intact.

Ralph Simone: Now a little bit of go along to get along type thing.

Bill Berthel: Very. More than a little, I think. I think. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You know, so, and when I look at that, you know, I, middle child, you know, I’ve got a little bit of that going on for me where I was always trying to make siblings feel safe and secure. And so there maybe wasn’t as much room for me to operate, to be authentic. So this can come from our formative years, it can come from some of the roots or the root causes of our tendency to control, protect, or comply can come from very early childhood development. It can also come, you know, context matters here. Uh, you know, when you’re playing poker, you don’t show all your cards.

You should protect, right? Okay. But however, when you’re negotiating, what if we did really come to a place where we were talking about, uh, everyone’s interests and needs instead of positioning too much.

Ralph Simone: Got it.

Bill. I’ve seen a lot of pretty successful, but at least by traditional terms, corporate leaders and executives that control.

They’re driven, you know, they’re smart. Uh, they’re perfectionists. They expect high performance. You might say type A personalities, but it’s interesting. So the control, there are people who seem to be reluctant to let go. They seem to be people who are reluctant to get out of the way and allow other people to learn, grow and develop. And so is that the energetic cost that you were referring to

Ralph Simone: earlier?

Bill Berthel: I think that’s the immediate energetic cost, and there are later energetic costs as well. If we track those organizations, they typically have more difficulty in their succession plans. When those leaders are ready to either, whether it’s retirement or leaving for a promotion internally or externally in the organization, they may not be filling the pipeline as well.

There’s a cost there to the organization. Folks tend to leave those types of leaders. There’s a turnover or churn cost that exists in that space as well. And that can be true for any of the three areas we’re talking about. Right. But controlling does tend to come to mind.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. I, I left because I think these are the people that made that find delegation as easy as others.

And I’m always amazed, you know, when people say, well, nobody can do it as well as I can. I say, well, maybe not right away . If you’ve been doing something for a long time and you’re reasonably good at it, you know, the first time you hand it off. But I think we have to think bigger and we have to think broadly about scaling and really developing more production capability in the organization, which requires us to be less fearful, less fearful.

Bill Berthel: It requires us to be less fearful and there’s two directions to move at the same time. These two directions are equally important. Leaders that are reaching their full potential and that are scaling their leadership in their organizations are both excellent relators and achievers. They’re getting stuff done through teams collaboration.

They have intelligence in the systems around them and their emotional social intelligences in relating are excellent. And so these two directions of relating and achieving are the antidote to those fears.

Ralph Simone: So we’re transcending binary or either or thinking as we move up and mitigate these fears and actually maximize an organization’s potential.

Bill Berthel: It is, it’s a bit of a dilemma. It’s not just about getting stuff done. And it’s not just about relating. It’s a both and there. I like to think of it as a creative tension. .

Ralph Simone: So it’s got me thinking of just really asking leaders to spend some reflective and contemplative time around, what are you afraid of?

Yes. And how is that holding you, your team, and your organization back?

Bill Berthel: And you can listen to a new podcast two times a month here at Get Emergent, where we’ll bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas, balanced with best practices you can apply in your leadership.

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Creating space for energy renewal is vital to effective leadership, but restorative practices don’t have to be complicated or time-consuming. In this episode, Ralph and Bill discuss the four key areas of energy renewal, and coining the phrase “Fastoration,” suggest ways to simply and efficiently fit them into a full schedule. Listen, and discover ways to optimize your daily routine – and your leadership.

Prefer to read the transcript?

Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast. Our podcasts are focused on individual team and organizational development. We focus on leadership topics and provide concepts, ideas, and pragmatic tips and practices for all leaders. I’m Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel: Ralph, I love today’s topic. We even made up a word for it.

Restoration. What is fastoration?

Ralph Simone: Oh. That could be anything you want, but, but here’s what we think it is in, in the context of energy and essential activities. It’s the essential and efficient restoration in four key areas.

Bill Berthel: I love it. I think I need to get committed to this. So what are these four areas of energy renewal that we can commit to?

Ralph Simone: So these are four areas that probably most of our listeners are familiar with, but we’re gonna make it simpler. We’re going to make it harder for them to stay out of action in these areas. So the first one is the one that most everyone is familiar with. Physical. Hmm. You know, the things that we’re doing to restore, replenish our physical energy.

Now remember we’ve talked about this a number of times. Leadership is an energetic activity. Yeah. And in order to be leading and living at higher levels of performance and consciousness, we need to be restoring ourselves in these four areas. So physical’s one of ’em. You know, that’s exercise, that’s hydration, that’s nutrition, that’s sleep.

But one of the things you, we don’t have to complicate it. It doesn’t have to be extensive hours upon hours. I, I remember coaching a guy years ago. He thought that a workout was only worthwhile if it was over two hours in length. Hmm. This was a busy executive who was working 60 – 70 hours a week. So you can guess how many windows of opportunity he had for a two hour workout.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, I was gonna say, if that’s the definition of a workout, I’m not sure I’ve ever worked out in my life.

Ralph Simone: No, this is No. But you’ve done fastoration and I think one of the things that we’re gonna shift people’s perspective is how that they can build these essential things in with, without it being burdensome to them.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So what’s the second area of energy renewal?

Ralph Simone: Second one is spiritual and you know, that’s really, you know, taking a little bit of time each day to reflect, to contemplate on those things that are most important to you. The things that bring you purpose and meaning. I mean, the word inspire means in spirit.

And when we can connect to that deeper, yes, it gives us the energy to kind of soldier through some of the challenges that we might encounter during the day.

Bill Berthel: I think revisiting our values, going to those fundamental building blocks of our human dynamic of values is so important in this space.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. And it doesn’t mean sitting on a, you know, a mat and meditating for 15 or 20 minutes.

It might be, particularly for type A people, it might be walking. Yeah. And while walking, contemplating those values. And so again, I think people look at things, they look at it very narrowly. They see it as limiting, but again, fastoration, you can from point A to point B, you can be mindful of your walking and focused on your values.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. So spiritual is meaning and purpose. What’s the third area of fastoration?

Ralph Simone: Well, I think it’s the other one that many of us are familiar with, although some stop doing it after school, and that’s mental energy renewal. Yeah. You know, that’s hobbies that bring us joy, that challenge our mental acuity, you know, woodworking, uh, working on cars, uh, doing wordle, which I was a little, uh, under the weather today on, in fact, I didn’t even know the word after they showed me the answer.

But those kinds of things that keep us mentally sharp. Remember, you know, we’re leading and many organizations. It’s a very mental activity and I think this is where, you know, learning is critical.

Bill Berthel: Learning or challenging our thinking process. Something is I, I, I love it. You mentioned wordle. Most people are solving that in three to five minutes or not solving it, and that’s okay.

But it has us in that cognitive process of thinking a little differently than we may be thinking through the day.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. I solve it or not solve it in three to five minutes every day. Exactly. And I think one of the things here is that as we look at these things, we’re not talking about a significant time commitment, but we are talking about an intentional commitment to this fastoration daily. Daily, an integrated effort. Right?

Bill Berthel: What’s that fourth fastoration area we can focus on?

Ralph Simone: We, we were having some fun before we got on this podcast around the social emotional mm-hmm. , right? And so that’s, you know, reaching out to people that, uh, energize you.

It’s also really being in tune to the emotions. You know, kind of motivate you and the ones that perhaps trigger or limit you. And so it’s really emotional intelligence. But I, I was telling the story of my kids sometimes when their, when their energy emotionally is low. I said, call a friend. Yeah, call somebody that you used to, you know, yuck it up with, have a lot of fun.

I mean, I have a buddy that I don’t think we’ve had a serious conversation. We have had a couple, but most of it, I just call ’em up. We joke about something from the past, , we’re laughing like hell, we hang up, but there’s a huge, huge energy shift. Sometimes it takes less than five minutes, and so all of these things in fastoration.

I think we need to be intentional. We need to be mindful, but even physical, you can get a good workout in 17 minutes. Yeah, absolutely. You, you know, the what? The high intensity interval training, you can get the heart rate up, right? Or get or walk the dog where you can take care of the physical piece. You could take care of the social emotional piece, right?

And pay attention to your dog, right? You’re gonna learn some things just in that. I think we make way too much of something that is essential to our effectiveness as leaders and as parents and as neighbors, is that we must take care of those four areas. And I think fastoration is a really efficient way to do it.

Bill Berthel: Oh, I love that. You know, as you talked about the buddy you have that you’re able to call, I, I’m lucky enough to have that relationship with my own brother and oftentimes we get together to help each other with a project and you know, our wives will often comment, you guys gonna get anything done today?

And we defend that we’re getting more than just this project done today. Right? We’re reconnecting, we’re laughing, we’re recharging that social emotional area.

Ralph Simone: It’s, it’s integrated.

It’s gotta be all serious to get stuff done? I gotta tell you, when you’re more playful, I think you’re looser. When you’re looser, I think you have a greater opportunity to perform in flow state. And what are we looking for in people and organizations? We’re looking for that optimal performance and flow state in order to have that, you gotta have energy. In order, have the energy you need to be working in these four areas, but not so long that it becomes cumbersome.

Bill Berthel: No, it’s fastoration. It’s the essential and efficient restoration, energy renewal in these four focused areas, and that’s what we’re asking our listeners to consider, experiment with on a daily basis. Your commitment to restoration in these four areas of energy.

And you can listen to a new podcast two times a month here at Get Emergent, where we will bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas, balanced with best practices you can apply in your leadership.

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Rather than focusing on what we say “no” or “not yet” to, focusing on the essential criteria of what we say “yes” to can aid decision-making and create space for great work. In this episode, Bill and Ralph offer suggestions and examples to help you develop your own essential list. Join us, and learn more about how this technique can enhance your leadership.

Prefer to read the transcript?*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone. And today, this episode we’re gonna be talking about the Yes list.

And I gotta tell you, bill, when I first saw that proposed title I was thinking of, I think it was a Jim Carey movie where he said yes to everything. Oh yeah, I love it. Yes, yes. So right off the bat, I gotta ask you, does the YES list mean that we say yes to everything that comes our way?

Bill Berthel: I think if we think back to that movie, the answer is no, right?

Cause I think, I think saying yes to everything can turn it into a situational comedy, however, Some of us may be living life like that. Some of us may have a real challenge with, you know, saying no or not yet, right? We, we’ve all heard that no is or can be a full sentence and that practicing saying no or not yet is really important, especially for leaders.

We can’t be all things to everyone. And I think, you know, sometimes we want to be, and that causes us maybe to say yes to some things We could say no or not yet to, we’re really not giving our full commitment if we’re saying yes to everything.

Ralph Simone: So it sounds like we wanna be focused on the more positive, but we have to be intentional and thoughtful about what we say yes to.

Bill Berthel: I think that’s exactly it. I think it’s being intentional that it’s the thing we really want to, need to, say yes to. So what if instead of focusing on what we’ll not do or what we’ll say no to, you know, we create the essential criteria for what we say yes to. So our yeses. Full. Full hell yeses.

Ralph Simone: I love it.

I love it. It seems like even in the law of intention, what we tend to focus on will manifest, right? We, we don’t wanna focus on what we don’t want, right? We wanna focus on what we want and that’s, yeah, absolutely. That’s the yes list. So what. What would we guide our listeners as far as criteria to use for their yes list?

I mean, what suggestions would we make?

Bill Berthel: So I have my own kind of hell yes. Criteria as I share this. I think it’s gonna be fairly intuitive. Uh, fairly simple. I think it’s harder to put in practice. We had a participant in our LeadFORWARD program in our last overnight retreat who was sharing some challenges in being able to, you know, say no to things and they wanted to be fully present.

And I think what advice shifted that participant to really start experimenting was instead of checking out or saying no, it’s about checking in and saying yes to what they’re looking at, what they’re doing, where they are, where they’re spending their. To me, it reminds me of dieting. When I have a list of things I can’t eat or I’ll stay away from, I tend to gravitate going back to that list eventually.

Cause I’m focused on what I can’t have as compared to having that list of healthy things that I’m going to enjoy. I’m gonna stick to that. I’m gonna stick to the yes list.

Ralph Simone: I love that distinction though, of checking in versus checking out, you know, uh, noticing what causes us to be more present as opposed to distracted.

I love that emphasis because I think, you know, that energetically that seems to be resonating at a much higher level.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely. You know, we tend to, uh, literally and figuratively hit what we focus on. There was a study in the 1950s. There was this odd number of auto accidents on Route 66. The famous Route 66.

In the 1950s, there were telephone poles or electric poles spaced every, I don’t know what they were, 10th of a mile, quarter mile, whatever they were. And oddly, cars kept hitting them. Now, there was great space between each of the poles, but there was an extraordinary number of cars hitting these poles.

And what they found out was when there is a target, when there is something to hit, we go towards it. We, we, instead of going for the void, we hit what’s available to us. So why not hit our goals? Why not hit what we wanna hit by the yes list?

Ralph Simone: Yeah, that I hope my insurance man is not listening, but that may explain my driving

Um, , I tend to be focused on everything but the road as my wife might point out, and so I start to move in that direction.

Bill Berthel: And I think we all do. I think we all do, right? So it’s what do we wanna focus on? So my Helles criteria list is, will I add value by saying yes? So this opportunity presents itself. Am I adding value by saying yes?

Now, value can be sought as many different ways, but you know, in the context of it, am I adding value? Will I later regret saying yes, this one’s really important for me. I find myself later regretting saying yes to some things. And so if I’m a little proactive, I can think about. Will I regret saying yes to this thing?

Well, if I’m gonna regret that, that’s a good indicator of saying no. Am I taking something away from someone else by doing this thing or saying yes to this thing? If so, is that helpful or harmful? Cause taking something away isn’t always harmful. It could be helpful. Maybe I’m being helpful by taking this, or maybe I’m doing some harm to that person’s growth, their development, their opportunity to..

Ralph Simone: Well, I think you wanna be, uh, you wanna guard against rescuing people Right, exactly.

And robbing them of development and growth as you pointed.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely. And then the other element on my list is, do I have the capacity, the commitment, and the capabilities and the right character? For the Yes. And so what that means to me, the capacity is time and energy. Mm-hmm. , do I have the time for this in my schedule or am I adding on to the end of the day or am I squeezing it in or creating another back-to-back meeting?

And do I have the, have I managed my energy from a capacity perspective to say yes to this opportunity that’s in front of me? The commitment, am I just saying yes in the moment to protect myself from the feeling of saying no, from disappointing someone? Is it a hell yes? Is that I want this thing?

Ralph Simone: But I think that goes back to spacing that we talked about in a, in another previous podcast.

Absolutely. In this idea of building a strategic pause in before we just, you know, some people are just very helpful and so the automatic response is yes, but the more intentional response may not be.

Bill Berthel: Right. You know, the capability is important. You know, do I have the knowledge, skills and ability to do this thing in front of me well, or can I develop it in a reasonable way while doing it, I think is important. And then the character, you know, am I saying yes to this from a full holistic sense of I’m leaning in, I’m excited, I’m enthusiastic. Maybe I’m even a little anxious about it, but. Towards the more positive way than, well, I’m saying yes to a, a obligation that I’m really not that excited about.

So is my character in line with the Yes. That I’m about to share?

Ralph Simone: So when you’re using that, that fourth one reminds me of Stephen Covey’s work with the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And he would say that your Yes. Is that burning desire. I love that. Yeah. That’s deep inside of you. And, you know, tap into that before responding to any request.

Bill Berthel: Yeah. So for me, if it’s not a yes on all of these criteria, then it’s a no or a not yet. Yeah.

Ralph Simone: The one thing I struggle with here personally is this balance between being a selfless leader, right? And selfish. But I love leaning into what I wanna say yes to. I wanna say yes to being present. I wanna say yes to being curious.

I wanna say yes to being helpful. That I think then informs the essential things that I get to do today that informs those commitments, those unique events that I spend time on. So I absolutely, I like the focus as opposed to, you know, what are you gonna say no to? What will we say yes to? What’s on your yes list?

Great.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. I know if I’m focusing on what I’m gonna say no to, I don’t say no to enough.

Ralph Simone: Well, and what you said, and, and we’ve said a couple of times in this, uh, podcast, what we focus on expands and what we wanna focus on is the yes list, the list that will grow and that will have more of a positive impact on more people, more organizations, more leaders, and more lives.

Absolutely. I think there are two key decisions, at least key decisions for leaders around the Yes list. First, is what will you focus on? And I think we strongly encourage him to focus on this shorter yes list. Yes. Those things really drive them. And then I think the second decision is, What will I do?

Which is another way of saying, what are you saying yes to? What are you voting for with your time, your energy, and your attention? So I think those are two key decisions we can make each and every moment of the day.

Bill Berthel: You can listen to a new podcast two times a month here at Get Emergent, where we will bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas, balanced with best practices you can apply in your leadership.

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Creativity is one of the most important traits a leader can possess, and when a leader is able to creatively experiment with processes, the dividends can be huge. For example, Bill and Ralph discuss the benefits of a “less is more” approach in this episode. Intentionally choosing to create space – and where you choose to do so – can help improve team satisfaction and increase productivity. Listen, and try adding to your own leadership toolbox – through subtraction.

Prefer to read the transcript?*Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone. And today, bill, I can tell you are excited about what we’re talking about and uh, the very first topic is creativity is subtraction. What do we even mean by that?

Bill Berthel: I am excited. So I think, I think that creativity is one of the most important leadership traits a leader can have, that they can develop and that they can nurture. Maybe I’m a little biased. I think we’ve got two creative guys on this podcast right now, but creativity is change and purposeful creativity can make meaningful change.

And I think leaders are change agents. In their organizations. The space of creativity as subtraction, though, I think tips creativity on its ear a little bit.

Ralph Simone: Yeah. Well isn’t it counter to what most companies do that they just pile on and pile on? You know, I’ve heard some leaders recently, they want their people to work unusually high number of hours.

So, you know, how do we reconcile that?

Bill Berthel: So there is value in additive. Creativity. I’m not suggesting that that’s not a form of creativity. You know, I think creativity is one of those words that when you say it, people get it. But when you start to really unpack it or drill into it, it becomes more and more complex.

There’s so many different creative processes and subtraction is one that maybe is underutilized. For most leaders and most organizations, it’s the idea that it’s not about adding more. More isn’t better, but we can do better with less.

Ralph Simone: Can you give a few examples that people would be able to relate to on that?

Bill Berthel: I think, you know, let’s stick in. What I think most people think about creativity in is, uh, you know, how we add paint to a canvas, how we compile words to a passage or how a musician adds notes to create a composition. These are all important additive processes, but what about the spaces between the notes?

Mm. What about the subtractive process in say, sculpture? Right. Michelangelo said a sculpture’s already complete within the marble block. He said before he starts his work, he recognized that the sculpture is there. It’s his job to chisel away the material. Mm. That’s a subtractive creative process.

Ralph Simone: So that reminds me, and this may be a little bit tangential, but this idea that there’s really nothing to be fixed.

Only something to be found. Oh, I love that . And sometimes we find it by taking things away.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely. Absolutely. So how does this apply to leadership? Just as you suggested a little bit earlier, Ralph. The mentality of, you know, more is better, more hours, more time, more energy, I think needs to be challenged in most organizations.

Ralph Simone: I think so. Cuz it ain’t working for us. I mean, if we look at our productivity as a country and compare it to some other nations who work fewer hours, our productivity’s lagging.

Bill Berthel: So there’s an absolute trend in, in Western organizations where more is better. We can take some cues, not just from the East, but really in Europe.

There have been some amazing research programs looking at the number of hours for full productivity and individual health, and it turns out it’s under 40 a week. Yes, it turns into sweet spots. Something around 30 hours a week.

Ralph Simone: so it reminds me, you know, one of two of the, I think more unhealthy things that we do is we compare and consume, but we usually compare, like looking at who has more, you know, what else could we do?

And I think those things get us sideways and we actually become less creative.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely. So where we intentionally choose to. Not act matters as much as where we do, where we choose to intentionally create space in our schedules and time, in our physical space where we can start creating clear space, matters.

It really shows that we not only get more creative, we get more productive when we start taking things away.

Ralph Simone: So I love that, but how would we , how would we coach our listeners? Not to be perceived as lazy or not engaged, or not committed to the cause because I think the perception of that could be some of those labels that I just shared.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely. So what comes up for me is that waiting is an action. Waiting isn’t being lazy. What also comes up for me is that there is activity in consciously eliminating or saying no to obligations we don’t really, either belong with us or that we’re fully passionate about or that we can really add value to.

And so I’d ask our listeners to contemplate where they can say no. Mm-hmm. where they can eliminate, where they can delegate with others in their organizations, where are they willing to experiment with purposeful schedule voids? So I remember back in the eighties it was called Slack time, and that almost has a negative connotation, right?

Like the slack or the laziness, I’m not suggesting slack time, but it’s meaningful, purposeful voids in our schedule.

Ralph Simone: I think I was referred to as a slacker back then, and I don’t believe it was complimentary, but I used to say that I was ahead of my time around time management. So

Bill Berthel: absolutely. I’m sure, I’m sure

Ralph Simone: I subtracting things outta my schedule.

Bill Berthel: You know.

And it’s also in our physical space, where can we either create, More space not to just fill up with more things. Where can we create clarity in our space? Many organizations are cluttered in mind, time and space.

Ralph Simone: Oh no, bill, that, that gets me thinking about Feng Shui, right? And how we organize our room. How we block the flow of energy.

Cuz we got too much stuff.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely. And so I wanna anchor back to what I said a little earlier, that creativity is change and one way to change the use of our time, our energy, and our space. Is to be thinking about subtraction as compared to addition or piling on more.

Ralph Simone: I’m not suggesting this for our listeners, but it just triggered with me.

I go make my things not to do list for today. Beautiful. You know, is a way of, of taking things out. These are good. I’m, I’m, I’m getting excited about this.

Bill Berthel: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think you have another process that you follow on a regular basis.

Ralph Simone: I do and, and I used to call it my secret formula, but I’ve shared it with so many people, but it’s my 3, 5, 6, 8, and this is really about subtracting things.

So this is our call to action. So the three stands for. Only three essential things I get to do today. Mm-hmm. So now we’re taking things out by focusing on these three essential things. Love it. No more than five unique events, you know, so we’re again, taking events out and I consider unique event, a one-on-one meeting, a group meeting, a social function, or you know, any commitment that you have.

Right. So this is creating space between the notes. Six and I and, and, and a lot of people that companies that are stingy with vacation aren’t gonna like this. Today, as a matter of fact, is my 31st year in business today. November 18th, mark’s my… congratulations. And every year over those 31, I have taken six weeks out of the work.

You know, six weeks off, not necessarily on vacation. Creating that space to be creative, operating on a 46 week year. Mm-hmm. not a 52 week year. And then the last thing that I think is great for health is eight hours sleep. You know, kind of removing this, have to get up early, gotta burn a candle at both ends, stay up late.

Because I think that really for me, stunts my creativity. I got a good eight hours last night and I was ready to roll this morning.

Bill Berthel: Well, that eight hours of sleep is a beautiful way of creating a purposeful void in our schedule. Yeah. Yeah.

Ralph Simone: So three, five, six, eight is the call to action. Experiment with three essential things you get to do, only five unique events, six weeks out of the office or the work that you do, and eight hours of sleep per night. Love it.

Bill Berthel: So where can you eliminate? Where are you willing to experiment with purposeful schedule voids? Where can you make space or clear space in your individual leadership on your teams or in your organizations?

And you can listen to a new podcast two times a month here at Get Emergent. Where we will bring you contemporary leadership topics and ideas, balanced with best practices you can apply in your leadership.

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Here’s a bold statement: retirement and college are outdated concepts of the 20th century. You may disagree but listen in as Ralph and Bill discuss the topic and see if your opinion changes.

Before each transcriptPrefer to read the transcript?Note: The following text is the output of transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errorsBill Berthel:* Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast, where we discuss various leadership topics, team and organizational development ideas, and current leadership challenges and successes. I’m Bill Berthel.

Ralph Simone: And I’m Ralph Simone.

Bill Berthel: So Ralph, today we’re gonna start talking about some outdated concepts, and I know you’ve got kind of two that you’re ready.

You got some energy around? Yeah, the outdated concepts. Retirement and college.

Ralph Simone: I’m probably a little too sensitive to, at least one of these topics based on my advancing age, but, um, I, I will start by saying this, that what I’m about to declare is ungrounded, but I think worth talking about. So I turn 65 years old in a couple weeks.

I gotta tell you, I am tiring of hearing the questions, and I don’t know if they’re questions and or statements or suggestions

Bill Berthel: or suggestions

Ralph Simone: maybe they’re suggestions. When are you going to retire or you’re still working? See, I don’t think that’s a question. I think that’s, that’s more of a statement and um, that got me thinking, you know, of course defensive, do I look older?

Whatever. But thinking that the traditional view of work in retirement is an outdated linear model, And I think it fails to recognize kind of the seasonal and integrated aspects of life. And, and I know I have sensitivity to it. I know that I’m not objective because of my age, but that’s, I think we need to really challenge that.

And I think we need to challenge it because we don’t have enough people . So I don’t think we can afford this mass exodus of baby boomers and other following that, and I think it was, you know, it was designed at a different time. It was designed when we worked physically harder. Right. You know, that you would retire.

I think it’s, I really don’t think it’s kept pace with where we are in society today.

Bill Berthel: Well, there’s something, Ralph, that I appreciate that you’ve shared. I think, you know, not just with our team, but outside of Emergent with other leaders and other individuals in the community, that it’s about remaining relevant.

Ralph Simone: Absolutely. It’s a question my kids ask me every time they see me. How you, are you remaining relevant dad? You remain relevant by continuing to learn. by being curious. By asking questions. I mean, Bill, I often joke that when I get the question on retirement, I say, Look, I retired. On November 15th, 1991, they, they kinda look at me, but I say, That was the day I resigned my position from Coopers and Librand, which is now pwc.

And that’s when I started my own consulting practice. But I started to work in a different way. And I think that we need to really rethink retirement and we need to really rethink the way in which we work. And so that was part of the process.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, I love it. I love it. I think your point about the workforce and that we need people is spot on.

But I think it’s also about the quality of the individuals who might be retiring too early, who might be self-selecting and, and wanna respect their choices. Maybe they have something else aligned and that’s wonderful, but I think the model, the concept has asked some people to leave too early.

Ralph Simone: I think so, and I think one size fits one, and I think we have people that have way more in the tank that are really healthy and they have so much to share that why are we ushering them out of the workforce so quickly?

And you, you know, one, one of the reasons I actually, uh, left Coopers in, in 91 is I didn’t wanna work, you know, 60 plus hours a week for the chance at perhaps becoming a partner in having a pile of money by the time I retired, I, I wanted, I wanted to learn, contribute, and live along the way. And, you know, although I, I didn’t describe it this way, I think I was playing the infinite game and I think we have… You know, this goes back to our discussion on, uh, resource utilization. We have so many people that are in their sixties and seventies and even eighties that are vital, relevant, and have so much to contribute. And, and that’s probably one of the reasons that I think this is an outdated concept that requires, you know, rethinking, retooling and re-engineering.

Bill Berthel: We, uh, mentioned a few minutes ago that. So there’s some thoughts around the outdated concept of college as well.

Ralph Simone: Well, well, that was the other thing I was reflecting on in my current role, right? As a leadership development coaching consultant, I fully realized that I didn’t need a four year degree in accounting to be able to do this work well.

I wanna be clear about something. I am not antico. Yeah, yeah. There are some positions and professions that absolutely need that level of education. I’m just against how strongly many people feel like it’s the only option. I think we’ve brainwashed an entire generation to see college education in many cases as the only solution, and in the process they have incurred an insurmountable debt.

And they’re not any closer to being on the road to their passion or success than they were before. And I think that’s very limiting. And I think we need to really, and we’re seeing the negative consequence for that. We don’t have enough people in the trades. We don’t have enough people to do some of the service work.

That was a noble profession years ago. But people no longer lining up to do that type of work.

Bill Berthel: No, absolutely. We have some clients that are really living that pain where there aren’t those, uh, younger trades people coming into the workforce. And you mentioned the debt. The college debt can be so high. It delays savings for people to start their lives buying a home if they’re interested in getting married, whatever that looks like.

And home ownership is the number one financial key to reducing intergenerational poverty. So there are huge societal challenges. Associated with some of this debt.

Ralph Simone: We gotta continue to challenge these models. They’re outdated. They don’t work for everybody and, and I think even the idea that you need to go to college immediately after high school.

I mean, really, how are we, Why? You know, I, I mean, I think of all the studying I’ve done since college. I’m a much better student. I pick things when I’m ready. I pick things that I’m really interested in and I fully engage, but I’m more mature. I’m, I’m able to kinda look at the application. I’m able to look at it from some different lenses.

So I just think that, you know, these are just two of the things. Uh, one happens to be a little more sensitive because of my age, but these are just two of the things that I think we would. Better rethinking, and not only rethinking, but restructuring how we utilize people and how we train people. I was thinking the other day about companies that, you know, technical companies, they could save money on engineering resources if they went to high schools.

Hired kids out of high schools that had some proficiency and interest in STEM. Science, technology, engineering, and math. And training them in their system. Almost go back to the old apprenticeship. You could save a lot of cost. You could develop people in your model. Uh, And you could save them from this debt that they would incure that prevents them from buying their first home.

I, I just think there’s so many things we need to rethink that it’s actually exciting and that’s why I want to keep working.

Bill Berthel: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And it’s, you know, it’s just one story. I, I didn’t go to college right out of high school that was, uh, uh, too difficult of a decision to make such a, Altering choice at that point.

You know, 18 years old, 19 years old. Leaving high school, I, I entered the workforce. I was fortunate to find an organization that grew me and developed me, and I was able to get my college degrees as an adult. It’s one story. One story, right? But I think there are different ways to be able to do this. It’s perhaps what does the larger model look like and how might individuals make more intelligent choices for themselves.

Ralph Simone: So I think it starts with admitting that the way that we are thinking and doing and working isn’t working for everyone. In fact, it’s probably working for fewer and fewer and so I think it’s time to really challenge our thought process on everything and be open to learning and be open to experimenting and be open to challenging even the things that worked for you.

I mean, people could say that it worked for me yet I’m still questioning it. I think we have to keep challenging ourselves that there are better ways and we will be in constant pursuit of finding them, but the only way to do that is to unlearn some of these past practices that are deeply entrenched in our society.

Bill Berthel: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I hope there are some young folks that are listening to our podcast and, um, you know, I would give a piece of advice in that space that, you know, if you’re entering the workforce, you can find an organization that has education development opportunities, tuition assistance, great benefit.

You can do it along the way while you’re developing yourself as a young.

Ralph Simone: I wish my daughter would’ve thought of that. You know, she finished her undergraduate in three years and then went back to graduate school, has a job when she gets out. I said, Why didn’t you let your employer pay for any? That’s dad trying to save some money.

So , that’s, I’m not looking at these topics through completely objective lenses today.

Bill Berthel: Well that’s okay. You know, part of the podcast here is to stretch our minds. Think about things a little bit differently for, you know, our leadership and our organizations, and looking at some of these concepts as possibly outdated or how would we adjust them or tweak them to work a little bit better for ourselves and our organizations.

Be sure to tune in every other week to listen to more Get Emergent podcasts. Thank you.

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Professionally many of us are feeling detached, fatigued, and perhaps even completely burned out. But we can always choose to begin again. In this episode, Ralph and Bill discuss a practice you can use to reset yourself and recommit to your mission. Prefer to read the transcript? *Note: The following text is the…

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Confidence is critical to effective leadership. If you sometimes feel less than self-assured, there’s a five-step process that can strengthen your confidence and enhance your leadership. In this episode, Ralph and Bill break down the technique. Listen and give it a try. Prefer to read the transcript? *Note: The following text is the output…

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Too many organizations suffer from ineffective resource allocation. The problem may stem from various factors like inadequate delegation, employee burnout, or unclear direction, vision and goals. And the solution may lie in experimentation, for example reducing – yes, reducing – work hours, and studying what others who allocate resources well are doing and emulating…

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90% of employees would say that effectively holding others accountable is one of the top priorities of leadership. But how can you do that without “weaponizing” accountability? Bill and Ralph offer some tips and exercises to improve accountability in your business and strengthen your leadership. Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent podcast where we…

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Having problems recruiting and retaining employees? Change your thinking. There is not a shortage of good job candidates and people do want to work. Bill and Ralph discuss the benefits of shifting your perspective and being open to redesigning “work” to attract quality talent and keep them engaged. Bill Berthel: Welcome to the Get Emergent…

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Balancing “Working On” and “Working In” the Business. Effective working managers are adept at managing polarities – strategy vs. tactics, planning vs. executing, delegating vs. doing. Ralph and Bill discuss the challenges that many working managers face, and offer tips and exercises to help you achieve balance and scale your leadership and your business. Bill…

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Ralph and Bill discuss a new activity to incorporate in your leadership: 6 weeks of short, asynchronous content focused on insights and behavior change. The concept is similar to the “42-day challenges” popular at fitness centers. When backed by accountability and support, these performance experiments can motivate learning and growth, and help you achieve your…

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So often lately we hear “people don’t want to work” and “we can’t find people.” The reality is that people don’t want to participate in the traditional employment paradigm. Organizations that successfully attract and retain talent understand the importance of employee engagement and know how to foster it. Ralph and Bill offer tips that you…

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“Company culture” is an often-used – and perhaps overused – term. But what do we really mean by culture? Let’s keep it simple: your culture is created by your actions. It’s not what you say, it’s what you do. Are your actions aligned with what you want your organization to be? Bill Berthel: Welcome to…

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More importantly, how do you want to show up and how is that different from how you actually show up? In this episode, Cindy and Ralph discuss the importance of “Leadership Presence” – knowing who you aspire to be as a leader and using what you value most to drive leadership effectiveness, leadership behavior, and…

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When this episode was first recorded in March 2020, the pandemic had just begun. Cindy and Ralph offered suggestions to help navigate a time of stress and uncertainty. Many months later, the content of that episode remains as relevant as ever. If you didn’t catch the original episode, this is critical listening. If you did…

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In this episode of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Chris Mason, President of OneGroup, an insurance agency based in Syracuse, New York. Chris traces his leadership path, and discusses building and maintaining an attractive culture as the key to overcoming the challenges of his industry. He also offers his insights on…

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Mindful Leadership – What the Heck Does that Mean and Why Does it Matter? In this episode, Ralph and Cindy unpack the concept of mindful leadership and break down its key components: self-awareness, other-awareness, and situational awareness. Consider this episode a relatable and practical guide to the fundamentals of emotional intelligence and how it impacts…

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Mindfulness is an essential skill for any effective leader. Practicing mindfulness helps you become aware of what really matters, and that leads to mastery – self-mastery, mastery in relationship management – the ability to make sound decisions, take the right actions, and be effective in any situation. In this episode, Ralph and Cindy break down…

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There are several things effective leaders do regularly to drive performance in their teams and organizations. Are these tactics in your leadership toolkit? Cindy and Ralph break down the key components to driving performance that every leader should be integrating into their own practice.

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In this episode of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Ryan Doyle, founder and CEO of Radar, an architectural firm in Syracuse, New York. Ryan talks about his goals for Radar, growing his firm by “mobilizing intelligence,” and the importance of flexibility in his leadership. During the conversation, Ryan discusses the challenges he’s…

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Many leaders have faced unprecedented challenges over the past 24 months and will continue to do so. Managing uncertainty, increasing complexity and rapid change requires flexibility with purpose, or “Leadership Agility” – the ability to adapt your leadership style as the situation warrants. But how do you become a more agile leader? Ralph and Cindy…

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In this episode of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Steve Lowe, owner of Valley Signs in Clayville, NY and co-founder of CNY Birdies Fore Babies, a non-profit organization that organizes an annual golf tournament to promote increased awareness about infertility and raises funds for couples who are trying to have a child.…

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The difference between a good idea and a great leader is the way in which they communicate. But communicating clearly and effectively is not always as obvious and easy as it seems. Ralph and Cindy offer some tips on how to improve your communication skills, thus enhancing your leadership effectiveness.

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In this episode of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Tim Kennedy, Regional President of Advance Local. Tim traces his leadership path from his early career as an accountant at Price Waterhouse to his current media position. Tim covers a wide range of topics, including the importance of shared values within an…

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We’ve all heard the term overwhelmed, and many leaders often experience the stress of being overwhelmed. In this episode, Ralph and Bill discuss the concept of being “whelmed” – that is, achieving the sweet spot between your leadership responsibilities and the critical need for rest and renewal. They offer strategies to avoid feeling overwhelmed, thereby…

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In this episode of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Fanny Villarreal, Executive Director of the Syracuse, New York YWCA. Fanny shares her passion, belief, and energy for the mission of eliminating racism and empowering women and girls in Central New York.

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Ralph and Cindy offer predictions for the coming year. What challenges will leaders face in the next few months, and how can they successfully adapt and overcome the toughest challenges? Listen, and learn how to future-proof your leadership.

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In this episode of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Winnie Deloayza of East Meets West Consulting, who has spent an incredible 35 years coaching others to improve their leadership. Winnie shares the valuable lessons she’s learned and the wisdom she’s gained through her own leadership journey. This episode is a must…

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An ability to influence others is a key to effective leadership. In this episode, Ralph and Cindy break down the components and methods of influencing. It’s a must listen if you’re struggling to assert your influence within your team or organization.

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This episode’s title will be surprising if you know Ralph and Cindy, but they make a strong case that often empathy is overused, misunderstood, and misapplied. And that can adversely affect leadership, team, and organizational performance.

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In this episode of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Mitch Stoller, Chief Philanthropic Officer at the American Association for Cancer Research. Stoller discusses the virtues of servant leadership and the challenges of fundraising, and offers advice about how to inspire and engage team members.

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Cindy and Ralph discuss the concept of psychological safety – feeling confident in your ability to speak your mind without fear of retribution – and offer tips to help improve the sense of psychological safety for yourself and your team.

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In this episode of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Sadye Bobbette, a recent Hamilton College graduate and avid outdoors person who discusses her leadership journey, particularly what wilderness adventure experiences have taught her about leadership with others, leadership of others, and importantly, leadership of self.

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Ralph and Cindy discuss the importance of saying no, and how to do so strategically and thoughtfully, thereby strengthening your leadership by allowing you to focus on what matters most.

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In the conclusion of a two-part episode featuring the leadership of Leashes of Valor, a not-for-profit organization serving wounded veterans, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Danique Masingill. Danique is a retired veteran, Syracuse University graduate, and Leashes for Valor’s President and co-founder. Daniquediscusses how her past experiences with poor leadership influenced the development of her…

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Ralph and Cindy discuss the key characteristics of “selfless leadership” and make six recommendations for how to deal with the paradox of balancing selfless leadership with your own ambition.

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In part one of a two-part episode featuring the leadership of Leashes of Valor, a not-for-profit organization serving wounded veterans, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Matt Masingill, the organization’s co-founder and Director of Canine Operations. As a retired veteran himself, Matt discusses canine and human leadership dynamics.

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We get a revealing look at Ralph’s thoughts on his own leadership, as he responds to Cindy’s seven leadership coaching questions in a lightning round format.

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In this episode of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Ross Berntson, President and COO of Indium Corporation. Ross discusses the value of the “leader- leader” concept, the importance of servant leadership, and reducing friction to help people reach their full potential.

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Because so many listeners enjoyed last month’s episode, Ralph and Cindy again randomly select fortune cookie messages and discuss how short phrases can contain wisdom that can make a big impact when applied to your leadership.

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In this episode of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Kelley Hester, head women’s golf coach at Clemson University. Kelley discusses her own transformational servant leadership style and the challenges and rewards of working through adversity.

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Sound leadership advice can be found in the most unexpected places. Ralph and Cindy randomly select fortune cookie messages and discuss how short phrases can contain wisdom that can make a big impact when applied to your leadership.

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In this episode of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Juan “Gonzo” Gonzalez, CEO of Eagle Eye International Protective Services and Kinetic Red. Gonzo discusses the value of failure, the challenges he faces as a leader today, and breaks down his three leadership priorities.

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This spring is a great time to rejuvenate your leadership. Ralph and Cindy share six critical skills to raise the bar on your leadership.

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In this episode of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Aubrey Hait, Director of Employee Experience at Equitable. Aubrey describes herself as a mobilizer of people, with a passion for body combat instruction. She discusses how her diverse interests coalesce to enhance her leadership, and how her drive to succeed as an…

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Ralph and Cindy share a memorable acronym that reminds leaders about what it takes to build and extend trust, leading to stronger relationships and higher performance.

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In this episode of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Matt Wilson, Founding Partner at MPW Marketing. Matt discusses the challenges of being a “player-manager,” and striving toward a culture that provides opportunities for professional excellence, a great working environment, and excellent compensation.

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Ralph and Cindy discuss the importance of staying grounded in five leadership fundamentals that will strengthen your leadership impact.

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In this episode of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Robert Hack, President, and CEO of HealtheConnections. Robert discusses his path in leadership from large corporate organizations through his transition to the leader of a unique relationship-based service organization. Roberts says that his leadership success, in organizations of all sizes, is due…

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Ralph and Cindy share their experience of working with hundreds of corporate teams and offer their assessment of the mindset and behavior characteristics common to the best team players.

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In this episode of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Dr. Johanna Rogers, Vice President for Racial Equity and Social Impact at Center State CEO. Dr. Rogers talks about how her current leadership opportunities were built upon the sacrifices of those who came before her. She also discussed her leadership in her…

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Cindy shares with Ralph the transformation she experienced in 2020, the strategies that helped her succeed, and invites you to use the same tactics to transform your leadership.

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In this episode of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Jeff Knauss, CEO and co-founder of Digital Hyve in Syracuse and Rochester, NY. Jeff shares that to lead well, you have to love people, communicate to the point that you feel like it may be too much, and serve others to no…

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Ralph and Cindy define the challenges and give recommendations on how you can address each.

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In the newest episode of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Meg Tidd, COO at VIP Structures in Syracuse, New York. Meg has combined her upbringing in the arts and the not-for-profit world with her passion for corporate strategy, and takes us on her journey of being an empathetic leader and being…

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Are you creating what you want through the language you use? Ralph and Cindy share their favorite pet peeves of what not to say.

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In the latest installment of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Binaifer Dabu, Senior HR Manager of Learning and Organizational Development at Community Bank in Syracuse, New York. An educator and storyteller, Dabu traces her leadership journey and discusses, among other things, the value of story, the importance of continued learning, and…

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Ralph and Cindy define the term “scaling leadership” and share the five actions you can take to build organizational capability.

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In the first episode of our “Driving Leadership” series, Emergent’s Bill Berthel speaks with Professor James Rolling, who discusses the impact of creativity on leadership and the influence of “swarm intelligence” in developing effective leaders.

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Ralph and Cindy discuss our natural tendencies to tell ourselves stories based on the assumptions we make, and how those stories can get in the way of effective leadership, clear communication, and inspiring team performance.

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How are other people experiencing you in your leadership? That’s your leadership brand. Is your behavior aligned with your vision of yourself as a leader? It’s essential for effective leaders to be aware of their brand and refine it as needed.

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Embracing a new definition of the military acronym can give you the ability to lead effectively through times of change.

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Self-leadership and self-reflection are critical during this time. Today’s “driven” leader has an opportunity to expand thinking by noticing their default behaviors in three specific areas.

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During a March 2020 Emergent webinar, Ralph Simone reflects on the importance of slowing down during times of uncertainty.

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Challenging times call for our best leadership, the kind of leadership that recognizes and embraces negativity while holding faith that good will prevail.

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Learn how to prepare for bouncing back from these uncertain times by strengthening your resilience, self-compassion, and creative connection skills.

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Discover the three essential things leaders can do to thrive during challenging times and emerge stronger on the other side.

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Today, the entire Emergent team explains how our unique approach to strategic planning can lead to transformational breakthroughs in individual, team and organizational leadership.

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Leading organizational change requires agility, and being agile means focusing on four key areas. In this episode, Ralph and Cindy discuss those four areas, what they mean, and why they’re important.

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A past LeadFORWARD participant shares his experiences and how the program impacted his team, his organization, and his individual leadership effectiveness.

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Often what’s most overlooked in building teams is taking the time to create operational ground rules that define how a team engages. Creating these important ground rules ensures that we mitigate “stupid conflict,” and improve accountability to get things done smarter, faster, and better together.

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Learn how to turn a “group of individuals working together” into a high performing team that is focused on an aligned strategy.

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Do you want to improve the quality of your meetings? Start strong. Ralph and Cindy discuss how checking in with team members in four key areas at the beginning of a meeting will improve engagement, participation and the quality of the discussion.

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A strong team must have a model for what success looks like in terms of performance, relationships, and culture. The team vision paints the picture for what that can look like. We’ll explain.

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Ralph and Cindy answer questions from the audience. Topics include strategies for keeping team members engaged during meetings, dealing with individuals who routinely resist opposing viewpoints, what to do when one team member consistently dominates meetings, and how to handle high performers who habitually miss deadlines.

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Often leaders unconsciously create conditions under which their team members are afraid to speak up. This can kill creativity, innovation, problem solving and team performance. We’ll offer ideas about how to create a more psychologically safe environment in which everyone on the team can thrive.

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According to the Harvard Business Review, 71% of people feel that most meetings they participate in are a waste of time. We’ll outline the four essential types of meetings and give you five tips to make those meetings more productive.

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Once you’ve determined a team is necessary, there are five essential elements that are vital to that team’s success. Cindy Masingill and Ralph Simone describe the five elements and why they’re critical to building a high-performing team.

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We hear a lot about teams in business today. But do you really need a team? And if you do, who are the right players? Ralph Simone and Cindy Masingill offer valuable insights to guide you in making these critical decisions.

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Is your team failing to deliver results? Could it be that they’re not as committed as you think they are or as you need them to be? Learn how to get true buy-in from your team.

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So you’ve decided that your team is not operating to its highest potential. Where do you start? It starts with trust.

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We’ll address the elephant in the room – we are overworked because we spend so much time stuck in ineffective or unneeded meetings. Learn how to stop the meeting madness.

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How do you turn what’s essentially just a group of people working together into an actual high performing team?

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The success of realizing a vision, achieving a goal or solving a problem begins with identifying the gap.

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Learn about the secret influencing skill that will change your life.

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Ralph and Cindy discuss techniques to build a culture of commitment and accountability at all levels of an organization.

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Humans are “meaning-making machines.” What does it mean when someone doesn’t return your phone call? If you think it means anything other than they just haven’t returned you phone call, you need to listen to this episode.

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Complaints aren’t just negative. They are powerful tools to use in building a culture of accountability. Listen and learn more.

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Learn how to effectively adapt your commitments based on changing circumstances.

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Some say that fulfilling promises is the key to building trust with others. Just as important is how we rebuild trust when a promise is broken.

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What leadership blind spots do you have? What leadership insights would you gain by understanding your teammates’ feelings, what they are passionate about and the barriers to their performance? Your effectiveness as a leader is determined by developing and growing your Emotional Intelligence. In this week’s episode, learn to assess your own E.I. skills and…

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Teamwork is a leadership and emotional intelligence skill that’s essential to creating highly performing organizations. While individual achievement is important, businesses can make a greater impact and realize greater profitability through effective teamwork. And it’s every leader’s responsibility to develop processes to surface conflict and align teams toward common objectives. Listen and learn how.

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In this episode, we’ll delve into the concept of inspirational leadership – the ability to motivate others to do their best and reach their highest potential by being a part of something bigger. It’s about connecting what matters to the individual to what matters to the team, organization, family, or community. To be an inspirational…

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Influence is about getting people to follow your lead. In this episode of our ongoing series on emotional intelligence, we’ll discuss the importance of influence and how we can all incorporate it into our roles as leaders of families, teams, organizations, and communities.

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Coaching and mentoring are leadership and emotional intelligence skills that are vital to nurturing organizational growth and adaptability. In this episode, we’ll discuss how leaders can implement coaching, especially using open-end questions, to encourage and create the conditions and environment for empowering employees.

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Learning and practicing effective relationship management skills is essential to developing emotional intelligence. This discussion focuses on the benefits of healthy conflict in the workplace, and demonstrates how you can create a stronger, more adaptable business by fostering an environment in which different perspectives are welcomed.

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Learn more about the emotional intelligence social competency, organizational awareness, which includes being aware of key stakeholder relationships and leveraging them to advance leadership competency and organizational performance.

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Empathy does not mean agreement. Everyone can strengthen their empathy by first demonstrating our ability to notice other people’s emotions and acknowledge and validate those feelings. Learn how this emotional intelligence competency can help you and others lead and perform at a higher level.

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Identify habits you can cultivate to develop your positive outlook and bounce back rate after a difficult situation. Be aware and identify the brutal facts of the challenging situations and then look at what you can do to lead from your circle of influence to make a difference.

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How do you channel your passion to influence and inspire others? Strong leadership requires the skill to manage or harness our disruptive behaviors by developing skills to look at how to make a choice of how you want to respond.

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Emotional Intelligence adaptability is a leadership competency to be developed to handle juggling multiple demands, looking at new approaches, and adjusting to the ever changing needs of our organizations, communities, families, and teams.

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Emotional Intelligence Achievement Orientation is defined as striving to meet or exceed standards of ledership excellence. Are you looking for new ways to do things better, set challenging goals and take calculated risks?

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Self-awareness means having a deep understanding of your emotions, strengths, limitations, values, and motives and how it effects your leadership capabilities.

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An overview of emotional intelligence and what it means to you.

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