With All Due Respect

Michael Jensen and Megan Powell du Toit ask: is evangelicalism fractured beyond repair? Or as Mark Twain might say, have reports of its death been grossly exaggerated?

The WADR team are joined by Russell Moore, editor-in-chief of Christianity Today to talk about what happened to evangelical consensus.

And then Michael and Megan finish with a look at the spiritual themes in a tv series they basically think they had to do this season - Rings of Power.

But don't tap off too soon! Michael and Megan finish with the announcement that they're starting a new crowd-sourced service that promises to 'fact check' Christianity.

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In the final episode for this season, Michael Jensen and Megan Powell du Toit are talking comedy. Their big question: does God have a sense of humour?

When humans laugh, are we doing so as people made in the image of God? Or is this only a human response to the world? Or could laughter be a link to life in the next world?

The WADR team tackle each of these questions together, then review a comedy whose central character Megan has often been compared with - can you guess which one?

Finally, they finish up season 6 with a chat with a comedian who also happens to be an Anglican minister. It's a whole new take on second vocations that's a merry mile from St. Paul's tent-making.

LINKS

Find out more about comedian minister Howard Langmead on his website.

If you'd like to help Michael and Megan continue to deliver With All Due Respect each fortnight, why not make a donation?

With All Due Respect is the podcast for The WADR Project.

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In this episode, Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen are talking about Christian Nationalism. Nationalism promotes the distinctiveness of the people of a nation. Christian nationalism goes one step further, defining a nation by its faith, and maintaining it should be protected by the state, enshrined in its laws, and actively maintained.

But is this so? Is Christian Nationalism even compatible with the Christian faith? In a western society that is often spoken of as Post-Christian, the relationship between Christianity and the State has become an increasingly vexed issue.

Michael and Megan start their investigation by reviewing a documentary that seeks to look at how this is playing out in US evangelicalism. Moving on, they discuss whether Christian Nationalism is a problemin an Australian context. Then it's your chance to shape the show - a question and answer session on Australian evangelicalism and what the WADR team think about where it is going.

LINKS

After the highly successful “In the footsteps of the Reformers” tour through the Czech Republic, Germany, Switzerland and the UK. Faith Journeys is launching its latest tour “In the footsteps of Saint Paul”, travelling across Turkey, Greece & Italy from 25th April – 9th May 2023. The tour starts in Istanbul and makes its way through to Greece before ending in Rome. Daily devotions, a pilgrimage handbook and study guide assist with exploring the works, teachings and journeys of St Paul while travelling with like-minded individuals. You also have a Tour Manager throughout who looks after all travel logistics with exclusive local tour guides who all work alongside Michael Jensen to create an immersive touring experience. If you're interested in joining Michael on his instructive tour of early church locations, then you can find out everything you need to know at www.faithjourneys.com.au or by emailing info@faithjourneys.com.au.

If you'd like to help Michael and Megan continue to deliver With All Due Respect each fortnight, why not make a donation?

With All Due Respect is the podcast for The WADR Project.

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While we have been dealing with a pandemic over the last couple of years, we have also been experiencing what some are calling a loneliness epidemic.

Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen discuss how this new struggle has been reported across many countries, particularly in their home country. The Ending Loneliness Together report says that one in four Australians are experiencing problematic levels of loneliness, with one in two Australians feeling lonelier due to the pandemic in 2020.

Why is this so? Does it happen to Christians as much as anyone else, and how can we respond?

Michael and Megan talk first about how loneliness might interact with faith, and then they invite Susan Mettes, behavioural scientist and author of The Loneliness Epidemic, on to the show to discuss how we can begin to deal with this challenge.

Finally, the WADR team take a look at a comedy of loneliness, This Way Up.

LINKS

After the highly successful “In the footsteps of the Reformers” tour through the Czech Republic, Germany, Switzerland and the UK. Faith Journeys is launching its latest tour “In the footsteps of Saint Paul”, travelling across Turkey, Greece & Italy from 25th April – 9th May 2023. The tour starts in Istanbul and makes its way through to Greece before ending in Rome. Daily devotions, a pilgrimage handbook and study guide assist with exploring the works, teachings and journeys of St Paul while travelling with like-minded individuals. You also have a Tour Manager throughout who looks after all travel logistics with exclusive local tour guides who all work alongside Michael Jensen to create an immersive touring experience. If you're interested in joining Michael on his instructive tour of early church locations, then you can find out everything you need to know at www.faithjourneys.com.au or by emailing info@faithjourneys.com.au.

This is where you can find Susan Mettes' book, The Loneliness Epidemic: Why So Many of Us Feel Alone - and How Leaders Can Respond.

If you'd like to help Michael and Megan continue to deliver With All Due Respect each fortnight, why not make a donation?

With All Due Respect is the podcast for The WADR Project.

The Loneliness Epidemic: Why So Many of Us Feel Alone--and How Leaders Can Respond

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In this episode, Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen look at the vexed question of racism and the church.

First up, they talk to African American pastor Thabiti Anaybwile about how he understands the way American evangelicalism has interacted with the question of racism. He has been a significant voice on this topic within conservative evangelicalism in the US.

Then the WADR team come back to their Australian context to speak with pastor Grace Lung and her experience as an Australian-born Chinese woman within Australian churches and society.

Finally, Michael and Megan finish with a review of a film that examines the experience of Indigenous students in an elite Anglican school environment.

LINKS

You can find out more about Grace Lung's ministry and track down resources for understanding and dealing with racism on her website.

If you'd like to help Michael and Megan continue to deliver With All Due Respect each fortnight, why not make a donation?

With All Due Respect is the podcast for The WADR Project.

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Most of us wear clothes every day - Michael Jensen and Megan Powell du Toit make a point of it! But as much as we might think we pay no attention to what we put on, most of us dress in accordance with the fashion of our day. And like it or not, what we wear communicates something about who we are.

Very little thought is given over to Christian fashion. But the WADR team discover the one area that does get talked about is women dressing modestly - they immodestly think they have some helpful things to say on this.

Michael and Megan then speak with a Christian fashion designer Neri Morris about how her job relates to her faith. And they finish with a recent documentary about fashion label Abercrombie & Fitch - White Hot.

LINKS

Check out the Thread Harvest web site.

You can hear more from Nerri over at her blog.

And if you're in Sydney, don't forget to check out the Re-inspired shop in Parramatta.

If you'd like to help Michael and Megan continue to deliver With All Due Respect each fortnight, why not make a donation?

With All Due Respect is the podcast for The WADR Project.

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Creative acts - and creative people - have sometimes been given short shrift within evangelicalism. Creative work can be seen as less significant than the work of a pastor or evangelist.

But on the other hand, the Bible begins with an act of creation - the first and greatest of all creative acts. So Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen ask, 'Is creativity a waste of Christian time, or is it an essential vocation of the Christian?'

In pursuit of an answer, the WADR team talk to the artist and cultural thinker Makoto Fujimura, who has written extensively about the intersection between the creative and theology.

Then they finish with a look at a beautifully creative piece about a creative person - Oscar best picture winner CODA.

LINKS

Makoto Fujimura's new book, Art and Faith: A Theology of Making.

If you'd like to help Michael and Megan continue to deliver With All Due Respect each fortnight, why not make a donation?

With All Due Respect is the podcast for The WADR Project.

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In the run-up to this weekend's federal election, Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen get all economical.

Jesus famously said, "You cannot serve both God and money," or wealth, depending on the translation. While Christian scandals often involve abuse of sex or power, love of money seems to be the sin we often tolerate. Is that because Christians in the west have been living under capitalism for some time now?

Capitalism gets quite a bad rap these days, so the WADR team asks, Is it the root of all evil? How should Christians relate to issues of money and ownership?

Megan and Michael then talk to capitalism expert Professor Gordon Menzies from the University of Technology, Sydney, about how economics and faith might interrelate. And we finish the show with the television series that has been called a satire of late capitalism - Apple TV’s Severance.

LINKS

Here's where you can get a copy of Gordon Menzies book, Western Fundamentalism: Democracy, Sex and the Liberation of Mankind

If you'd like to help Michael and Megan continue to deliver With All Due Respect each fortnight, why not make a donation?

With All Due Respect is the podcast for The WADR Project.

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Now that the Prime Minister has called for an election, Christians will be bombarded by people wanting to win or influence their vote.

Some of that campaigning will be based on what people THINK influences a Christian vote. But despite the rhetoric, the Christian vote is more diverse than is often realised. What issues are on Christian minds and hearts this election?

Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen put that question out there and receive significant responses from Christian leaders as well as WADR listeners. Then the WADR team then discusses how you might sort through all this as you cast your vote.

And to finish off, our resident 'Marg and Dave' review of a series that will make for good election viewing.

LINKS

Full comments from the Christian leaders who responded to Megan and Michael's questions.

If you'd like to help Michael and Megan continue to deliver With All Due Respect each fortnight, why not make a donation?

With All Due Respect is the podcast for The WADR Project.

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Several books have recently been released on the problem of narcissism in the church. When we mix this with some high-profile examples of pastors gone wrong, the ego-centric leader becomes an important issue to consider.

While we may not have evidence of legions of diagnosed clinical narcissists in the church, we can all point to church leaders with ego problems - not that surprising when church leadership can come with attached power and status.

So, Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen ask how do we deal with the potential ego problem of leadership? Step one: interview Professor David Starling about his research into New Testament approaches to leadership.

Then the WADR team follow this up with a discussion on whether our whole approach to leadership is wrong, before finishing with a surprising movie on leadership, Disney's Encanto.

If you'd like to help Michael and Megan continue to deliver With All Due Respect each fortnight then why not make a donation?

With All Due Respect is the podcast for The WADR Project, and a proud member of the Undeceptions Network.

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Black Sabbath - old-school heavy metal band or day in the Christian calendar? The Saturday just before Easter Sunday has been called various names but that hasn't kept it top of mind in religious circles.

It tends to be ignored by many Protestants, stuck awkwardly between the mourning of Good Friday and the joy of Easter Sunday.

So Michael Jensen and Megan Powell du Toit ask what was going on in that gap? And what spiritual significance does it have to people of faith today?

Then the WADR team reviews the TV series The Chosen, which tells the stories of the gospels, as well as filling in some other gaps.

If you'd like to help Michael and Megan continue to deliver With All Due Respect each fortnight then why not make a donation?

With All Due Respect is the podcast for The WADR Project, and a proud member of the Undeceptions Network.

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Soul. It's a word that continues to have a lot of resonance. We look for a soul mate, we say something is good for the soul, we engage in some soul searching and we bare our souls to each other. None of us wants to be soulless. But what is a soul?

Michael Jensen and Megan Powell du Toit discover that this is one subject even Christians, who are in the business of 'saving souls', are less clear on.

The WADR team ask some searching questions - do we have a soul and what is it? - in For Argument's Sake. Then they look at Swansong, a recent movie that is perhaps, soulless. Finally, it's time to take a look at a book that Megan reckons is good for the soul - Anne of Green Gables.

If you'd like to help Michael and Megan continue to deliver With All Due Respect each fortnight then why not make a donation?

With All Due Respect is the podcast for The WADR Project, and a proud member of the Undeceptions Network.

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For the return of season 6, Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen plunge listeners into the heart of a two-thousand-year-old tradition in their efforts to understand what it might have to contribute to spiritual growth today.

Lent is a period of prayer and fasting in preparation for Easter that has been practiced since apostolic times.

Until recently it wasn't that popular among Evangelicals, but more believers are beginning to observe this 40 days of reflection - including guest Dr. Ros Clarke who has just released a devotional for Lent.

Forty Women : Unseen women of the Bible from Eden to Easter considers the historical truth that the first witnesses to the resurrection were not men, but women - and without women, the Easter story would not have happened at all.

The WADR duo then discusses whether Bible-believing Christians should be doing something that doesn’t appear in The Bible, and finish with a five-star film often watched at this time.

If you'd like to help Michael and Megan continue to deliver With All Due Respect each fortnight then why not make a donation?

With All Due Respect is the podcast for The WADR Project, and a proud member of the Undeceptions Network.

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In this episode, Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen ask about the cost of conscience.

Conscience has been at the forefront in public discussions, as a new phase of the pandemic requires measures that have created an urgent set of ethical dilemmas. This has come at the same time as our politicians are debating bills about freedom of religion.

The WADR team tease out the Biblical approach to freedom of conscience before taking a more personal look at it with Alison Preston, a Christian living with the consequences of a decision of consequence.

Then Michael and Megan finish up with a well-known movie about conscience, Les Misérables.

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With All Due Respect's Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen are joined by The Centre for Public Christianity's Justine Toh to usher out the old year.

Like 2020, 2021 has had its social highs and COVID lows but, on balance, what did WADR think of the year that was? First up, the team give each other what they think was the theme of the year.

Then it's time for Megan, Michael, and Justine to share their favourite watch, read, and listens for 2021 in a bumper edition of Marg and Dave - or should it be called Marg, Dave, and Bill? A reference to the king of movie reviews that young Justine just doesn't get...

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As Australians have striven to get vaccination rates up and covid spread under control, one carrot held out to the long-suffering population has been the promise of a normal Christmas.

Michael Jensen and Megan Powell du Toit think we often associate Christmas with homecoming and family. For a start, it's a classic trope of Christmas movies - Christmas Homecoming, I'll Be Home For Christmas, Home For The Holidays, even Home Alone. But the very first Christmas, Mary and Joseph leave their home on a journey. So, is Christmas a story of home or away?

The WADR team talk it all out, look at a Christmas movie about a family - Little Women - and then bring back a segment everyone has been asking for as an excuse to exchange gifts.

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This episode hosts Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen question their mental stability.

Mental health has been a key conversation during the COVID crisis. People have argued for and against various public health measures by referring to the mental health effects. There has been a widespread understanding that a viral pandemic will have mental health costs as well.

Yet quite often, it is still those people 'out there' - those 'other people' we need to look after. And there continues to be an unhealthy tendency to give spiritual answers to mental health issues. Wouldn't it be better to delve instead into what it is to be people of faith dealing with mental health issues?

Michael and Megan get personal about how experience interacts with our theology and ministry, talk to clinical psychologist Sarah Hindle, and read together a recent novel by an Australian author which centres on a protagonist with mental illness.

SPECIAL OFFER

Sorrow And Bliss by Meg Mason and The Way I See It by Lucy Marrett are available for 20% off at Little Lost Bookshop when you use the code WADR. Happy reading!

A NOTE OF CONCERN

If this episode has raised difficult topics for you, and you'd like to talk to someone about them, Michael, Megan and Sarah recommend:

Lifeline: 13 11 14
Suicide Call Back Service: 1300 659 467
eHeadspace: 1800 650 890
Beyondblue Support Service: 1300 224 636
NSW Mental Health Line: 1800 011 511

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In a world in which Christianity is losing its cultural dominance, and under fire for various reasons, should Christians strongly defend the church, or should they be apologetic about its wrongdoing?

There seems to be a wide spectrum between those who want to claim western society will regret abandoning its Christian foundations, and those who are quick to call it out from the inside. Whichever way you look at it, Church history is at the forefront of the public conversation.

Michael and Megan take a look at this phenomenon and then interview John Dickson about where his book, Bullies and Saints fits into this spectrum.

Then the WADR duo finishes with the critically acclaimed 2020 film Minari, which tells a slice of 1980s church history.

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Some of the most beautiful poetry has Christian faith embedded within it, and yet some of the worst poetry we have experienced has been within the Christian community.

A couple of episodes ago the WADR team looked at poet Christian Wiman and brought up his thought that faithful literature should be an ice axe for the frozen sea within you.

As two people of faith and lovers of poetry, Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen have started thinking more about faithful poetry - and the light it might give to the faithful life.

They talk to one such potential lamp bearer - poet Dr. Lachlan Brown. They then try to tease out what faithful poetry might be and finish with a powerful poem that recently captured the public's imagination.

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Australia is gearing up to reach its 80% 16 plus vaccination rate, with some states ahead of others. The news has been dominated by both federal and state plans for what reopening will look like with COVID present in Australia.

Within that, Christians have had particular concerns. What will be the rules around face-to-face church gatherings, and how should we as Christians respond to the risks and freedoms of reopening?

Michael Jensen and Megan Powell du Toit ask epidemiologist, Prof Greg Fox to answer questions from a public health perspective, and then the WADR team talk about a theologically informed response for churches.

We finish with a novel that explores what one church did during a plague: Year of Wonders by Geraldine Brooks.

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As the ancient saying goes, you can't go to bed if someone is wrong on the internet.

Social media can involve a lot of different communication types but it certainly does seem to have a lot of scope for arguing. In fact, it seems that one of social media's key contributions is polarisation and pitched debate.

Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen discuss how this has ramped up over COVID - the virus situation is ever-changing and the stakes as we respond to it are high. It seems like it would be a good time to know how to argue well and persuasively.

The WADR team looks at the 'how to' of arguing. Then they move that into the deeper question over whether argument can ever be holy. And finally, a review of a new series set in one of today’s battlegrounds - academia.

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The Christian world has always had its prominent believers, right down to the present day. Though the advent of the Internet has given them a reach and influence like never before.

Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen take a hard look at Christian celebrity - from luminaries like Tim Keller to Mark Driscoll - and ask what can be learned from our elevation of different believers.

First up, it's an interview with Mikey Lynch, experienced church planter and Campus Director of the University Fellowship of Christians, University of Tasmania, about his personal experiences with Mark Driscoll and the revelations of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast.

Then the WADR team delve deeper into the phenomenon of Christian celebrity and what it means for the Church.

Finally, it's a sharing of insights into a film about a flawed preacher which came out about the same time Driscoll started Mars Hill - The Apostle.

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Last season the With All Due Respect team brought you an interview with a Christian Liberal and former Prime Minister, Malcolm Turnbull. So Michael Jensen and Megan Powell du Toit thought it would be good to speak to a Christian Labor politician, Senator Deborah O'Neill.

Senator O’Neil is a Labor senator for new south wales who has been a politician since 2010, first as an MP in the Australian parliament and then as a senator. She is currently Vice President of the New South Wales Labor Party, a position she has held since 2011. She is also a committed Catholic

The WADR team then discusses the question of whether Christians have to be conservative, before reviewing a recent film based on the memoir of Christian social justice activist Bryan Stevenson.

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In some circles preaching is the one thing you can't skip at church. For others, it is an outdated practice. It can have a bad rap. We say to people, "Don't opreach at me!" Yet when Christian podcasts first started, the sermon was the first genre, and during covid, we have found ourselves listening and watching an endless supply online.

But what makes for good preaching?

Preaching is something both Megan and Michael have been doing for decades, so listen in as the WADR crew turns a critical eye on not only other preachers but their personal styles as well.

Then it's off to Gilead to examine the preaching style of one of Marilynne Robinson's key characters.

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With All Due Respect's Michael Jensen and Megan Powell du Toit examine masculine Christianity in the United States and question what effect it might be having down under.

The episode kicks off with an interview with Kristen Kobes Du Mez, author of Jesus and John Wayne, a publication that discovers the worship of Alpha Male role models in the American church.

Megan and Michael then examine the presence of Alpha Males in the Australian context, specifically the iconic Man From Snowy River.

And finally, our WADR hosts entertain us with a 'For Argument's Sake' about the effects such considerations have on the Australian Christian context.

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This episode is a Q and Q episode - no answers, just more questions. Michael Jensen and Megan Powell du Toit open by discussing whether questions are bad for your faith.

They then get personal and vulnerable by talking about the questions of faith they have that remain unresolved and why. Despite coming from different Christian traditions, do they share any?

And finally, it's a Marg and Dave segment on the poetry of a questioning man of faith - Christian Wiman.

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In the wake of Refugee Week, Michael Jensen and Megan Powell du Toit talk to Regent College's Mark Glanville about the book he has co-written with his brother, Refuge Reimagined: Biblical Kinship in Global Politics.

Mark Glanville brings the biblical scholarship of a respected theologian, while his brother Luke adds the insight of an associate professor in the Department of International Relations at Australian National University.

Then the WADR team examines Australia's attitude to refugees and how it mirrors an international approach that is increasingly overshadowed by concerns about personal and national security, economics, and culture.

Finally, it's time to examine the new television series Stateless, and how Australian actor Cate Blanchett interprets life in an immigration detention center.

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Michael Jensen and Megan Powell du Toit delve into the world of the mass media, examining its potential bias against Christianity and asking how responsible we are for the public's misinformation about the Christian faith.

The WADR team begins with a consideration of the classic film and media magnate commentary, Citizen Kane.

Then they tackle the fraught relationship between Christianity and the media in For Argument's Sake.

And for the season finale, former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull joins the show to discuss what is wrong with the media today.

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Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen take a long, hard look at masculinity in 21st-century society and ask if there is any way to stem its rising toxicity.

First in the show is a serious consideration of the thorny topic of sexual consent, followed by an examination of the health of masculine culture in general.

Then it's off to Brooklyn 99 to see what healthy masculine relationships might actually look like.

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As Easter approaches, the With All Due Respect duo tackles how modern eyes have affected our view of the cross.

Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen begin by asking if sacrifice has become an outdated idea in the 21st century.

Then, as they attempt to bring the cross back into focus, they share with each other the impact John Stott and Henri Nouwen have had on shaping their own views.

And finally, Terrence Malick's A Hidden Life and what it has to say to us this Easter.

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In this episode, Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen delve into the world of public theology - engaging in society's debates in a way that makes Christ shine.

The WADR team begins with Canadian scholar and journalist John Stackhouse and an in-depth interview on the nature of public theology.

Then it's time to consider what the challenges are for both the presenter and the message in For Argument's Sake.

Finishing up, Michael and Megan consider whether comedian and talk show host Stephen Colbert is a public theologian, and what we might learn from his approach.

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This episode the With All Due Respect team tackle the issue at the very heart of their podcast: friendship.

Michael Jensen and Megan Powell du Toit start the ball rolling by asking whether the COVID crisis has led us to neglect our friends? Then it's on to a revealing segment in which Michael and Megan discuss how they became friends, and what it is they've taken from each other.

Then author and social commentator Aimee Byrd returns to talk about her book on distinctly Christian friendship, and the WADR duo wrap up the show with a consideration of the book Dorothy and Jack, which chronicles the extraordinary comradeship between Dorothy Sayers and C.S. Lewis.

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With All Due Respect hosts Michael Jensen and Megan Powell du Toit take a long, hard look at cancel culture. Is there a place for it in the Christian community?

Beginning with a discussion about the nature of cancel culture and how they have experienced it in their own lives, the WADR team move on to an in-depth interview with American author, speaker, blogger and former podcaster Aimee Byrd who has experienced the worst this approach to disagreement has to offer.

Then it's off to the movies for a cancel culture take on the 2005 film Goodnight and Good Luck, which considers the walls of silence erected during the McCarthy era.

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Secular and religious societies are fond of using prayer as an easy means of addressing a crisis - so much so that hosts Michael Jensen and Megan Powell du Toit discuss how 'thoughts and prayers' has become a phrase that has gained much antipathy in the public sphere.

Examining this language of the inner life, Megan and Michael talk about what sort of prayers they use when addressing God, and in what contexts.

Then to finish the show, a special edition of 'Marg and Dave' as the WADR team review their favourite prayers on offer.

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This episode, the With All Due Respect team test our sense of the 'greater good' to its limits.

The creation of a COVID19 vaccine from research that resulted from a decades old abortion has Christians asking whether or not they can benefit from a loss of life.

Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen ask Denise Cooper-Clarke, a graduate of medicine and theology with a Ph.D in medical ethics, how ethically sound it is for Christians to take the new vaccine.

Then our WADR hosts deepen the debate in For Arguments Sake and consider whether or not people should be compelled to take this life-saving treatment.

Finally, episode 49 finishes up with a review of The Queen's Gambit, showing how a mini-series about chess also has something to add to this thorny debate.

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With All Due Respect hosts Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen take a long hard look at the last year.

The first stop is ask demographer Mark McCrindle to tell us what the statistics have to say about our behaviour in 2020. Then Michael and Megan consider what those tendencies tell us from a Christian point of view.

Finishing up, Michael and Megan tell us their favourite books, television series and films so we can happily read and watch our way through to the new year.

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The US election, a showdown between the Republican President Donald Trump and the Democrat candidate Joe Biden, has captivated Australian audiences.

This episode Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen consider the take-home points from the close association between American evangelicals and the trounced Donald Trump.

To help them, they interview American author and Christian commentator Karen Swallow Prior. They then follow this up with a discussion on life in a partisan environment. And for dessert, it's time to dig back into the vaults of Hollywood's greats and consider lessons to be learned from Mr Smith Goes To Washington.

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In this episode of With All Due Respect, Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen investigate what it means to lose one's religion in the 21st century.

Step one is a review of the iconic REM song, our hosts investigate what lead singer Michael Stipe was actually getting at, and then apply those findings to a loss of faith.

Step two is an interview with journalist Michael Collett who describes his own walk away from Christianity and the factors that keep him from coming back.

Step three, Michael and Megan discuss the factors that have kept them from losing their religion in tumultuous times.

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In their return episode for the fourth season of With All Due Respect, Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen tackle the thorny topic of calling.

Historically, Christians have been very strong on the idea of 'calling' - God having a specific purpose for people generally called into His kingdom. But recent decades of thought have challenged this idea.

Michael and Megan take a side each and summarise the positions, talk about Hamilton and our desire to believe in a call, and then reveal how they interpreted their own passage into ministry.

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The realities of podcasting mean that we can't always bring you everything that was said on a particular topic ... until now.

In this bonus edition of With All Due Respect, we deliver the full discussion on sex that featured in this season's final episode between Megan Powell du Toit, Michael Jensen and therapist Monica Cook.

All of your questions, answered in full. Get comfy and prepare yourself for an enthralling discussion.

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This is not click-bait. This is actually an episode about sex that is both incredibly thoughtful and intensely practical.

With All Due Respect champions Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen round out season three with an all-points-considered approach to sex.

They begin the show by asking the question, "Does Christianity's knowledge of the origins of sex translate to good sex?"

Then there's a knock at the door and in walks Christian sex therapist Monica Cook to answer all the questions Christians want answered about this perplexing topic.

Finally, Michael and Megan look at the series Fleabag for everything that can go wrong with sex.

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In this episode of With All Due Respect, Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen investigate the unifying anxiety that has risen to the surface of the world's collective consciousness in this time of pandemic: the fear of death.

To begin with Megan and Michael flip through the pages of the novel Lament, which reveals how closely love and agony sit together.

Then it's time to welcome Dr. Megan Best, an expert in palliative care, who reveals the common attitudes that shape our behaviour as we approach the grave.

And finally the WADR team ask the ultimate question of each other: what does it mean to die well?

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In this episode of With All Due Respect, Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen cover the impact of COVID-19 on humanity's most precious relationships.

The WADR team kick off with a consideration of the statistics that reveal relational fault-lines developing in households across the world.

Then it's on to Baptist pastor Tony Calman and his personal experience with divorce, followed by a look at the film Marriage Story which starts after most romance films end – with a married couple thinking about divorce.

With All Due Respect is part of the Eternity Podcast Network. For more and a chance to join in the discussion, click on over to the With All Due Respect web site.

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Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen firmly believe the question, 'What is truth?' is no longer something for lecturers in post-modernism to amuse themselves with.

In this episode, the With All Due Respect team tackle the post-truth world we find ourselves in.

Starting with our favourite, 'You did what now??' segment, Michael explains why he just had to be publicly offended by President Donald Trump in the Sydney Morning Herald. Then Megan and Michael discuss the issue and ethics of truth online. And for a big finish, it's time to chime in on the new HBO documentary After Truth: Disinformation and the Cost of Fake News, which has a perfect score of 100% on Rotten Tomatoes.

With All Due Respect is part of the Eternity Podcast Network. For more and a chance to join in the discussion, click on over to the With All Due Respect web site.

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Michael Jensen and Megan Powell du Toit begin by asking why it is that we distinguish differently between who is and isn't my neighbour, and how that affected us during the lockdown phase of COVID-19.

They then invite Larissa Minniecon to discuss Australia's poor record for behaving like a neighbour to indigenous peoples. Larissa is a Kabi Kabi woman and a Torres Strait Islander. She helps us understand what indigenous Australians might contribute to our idea of neighbourliness.

And finally, Michael and Megan head to the movies to watch The Farewell, and discover what having a different culture has to say about the 'good' we offer our neighbours.

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This episode the With All Due Respect team address the burgeoning crisis talk that has filled audio and video streams, as well as countless social media and blog posts.

Michael and Megan suggest COVID-19 has brought out the truth in the saying, "A crisis on your part does not necessitate a panic on mine."

Together they debate the role 'crisis' has in the Christian life. Then, they provoke each other to voice an opinion on Ross Douthat's book, The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success. And they round out the show with a consideration of everyone's current dystopian read, Station 11.

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Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen debate the positives and negatives of being cooped up in one country.

The With All Due Respect team then interview Stephen Liggins, author of Travelling the World As Citizens of Heaven.

And don't miss their take on a travelling film that brings out the spiritual advantages of being somewhere else.

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The slow winding back of COVID-19 restrictions means that small groups of Christians are able to gather for worship once again. Yet for the majority of the world, church services will continue to a remote affair for several months to come.

Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen consider what worship looks like behind closed doors, and in particular what role singing plays.

Is making music to God an essential part of relating to Him? Or a cultural add-on that's nice but not necessary? Musician and worship lecturer Tanya Riches joins Michael and Meagan to puzzle out the truth, with all due respect.

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Megan and Michael have both experienced and observed bullying in the Christian church, in a variety of cross-denominational contexts.

They begin by discussing why it is that the church can become a 'safe place' for this harmful behaviour, and whether or not theology or gender make a difference.

Then they welcome Stephen McAlpine to the program to share his personal experience. Stephen was the victim of a bullying scandal involving the former CEO of Acts 29, Steve Timmis, during his involvement with The Crowded House church network in the UK.

Finally, with all due respect, Megan and Michael offer a range of approaches to ensure bullying doesn't find a home in your Christian community.

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Like any good Christian response, Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen begin with the theology underpinning so many COVID-19 actions.

Step two, is to ask the question, 'How should Christians live in a time like this?' What are Michael and Megan doing, both in ministry and their personal life? And what might they advise others to consider?

Finally, it's off to the virtual movies to provide listeners with a title worth watching in trying times like these: A Beautiful Day In The Neighbourhood.

LINKS

An example of the 'God will look after you' response
The article that inspired A Beautiful Day In The Neighbourhood, Can you say Hero? from Esquire Magazine

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In this easter episode…

With the deaths of the Abdullah children, Hannah Clarke and her kids still fresh in the minds of Australians, hosts Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen ask, 'Just how comfortable are we with the idea of forgiveness?'

Michael and Megan then talk to Esther Scott, whose missionary father Graham Staines and brothers were murdered in India.

And we discuss the obscenity of forgiveness as we contemplate the enduring popularity of the song Amazing Grace.

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Megan and Michael consider the variety of Christian responses that have been offered to the Corona Virus - from 'Jesus will fix it' to 'It's every one for themselves' - and ask how our doctrines should inform our decisions.

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Just because the word 'heresy' has fallen out of fashion, doesn't mean it has ceased to exist.

Megan Powell du Toit and Michael Jensen kick off season three of With All Due Respect, turning their attention to this thorny topic.

Their examination begins with a look at the Netflix movie The Two Popes and how it presents a recent clash of theologies in the Catholic church.

Then in For Arguments Sake, Megan and Michael discuss how heresy is currently defined, where it's likely to turn up in the church and what 'heresies' the media has found interesting - including the Christian angst over Israel Folau - as well as how we should go about dealing with heresies when we find them.

Finally, what heresies do Megan and Michael find personally attractive? Well, tune in to find out...

Links for this episode

The Two Popes, on Netflix and the trailer on YouTube
Our Favorite Heresies of 2018: Experts Weigh In, from Christianity Today
The Salt podcast on The Eternity Podcast Network

Join in the discussion onlinewww.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/

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We kick off by diving into a satire of the Church of England – the oldie but goodie BBC series The Barchester Chronicles. According to Megan: "The drama, humour and delight of the series is the church politics. For anyone who's been in a church, it's very familiar."

Can you have a voice of influence without playing party politics? As a "reluctant participant" in church politics, Megan gives her reasons for being involved in the Baptist Assembly, while Michael gives a personal perspective on the Sydney Anglican Synod. Yes, the discussion does turn to women's ordination.

And, as the Sydney Anglican Diocese prepares to elect a new Archbishop in August 2020, our hosts address the new realm of church politics where "the gloves are off".

Links related to this episode:

Episode 1 of Barchester Chronicles, especially the conversation at 44:55 - 45:05:
Dr Grantly: "My father in law can be a very difficult person."
Bishop Grantly: "He has persistent bouts of Christianity."
Episode 3 of Barchester Chronicles, especially the conversation at 7:31-7:34:
Mrs Grantly: "We could pray."
Dr Grantly: "There are times when I’m ashamed of my prayers."
Article by Michael Jensen on Eternity: The art of godly church politics
Book by Michael Jensen: Sydney Anglicanism: An Apology

About Barchester ChroniclesThe Chronicles of Barsetshire is a series of six novels by Anthony Trollope, set in the fictitious English county of Barsetshire and its cathedral town of Barchester. The second in the series, Barchester Towers, is the most famous. The first two novels were adapted as a TV miniseries – The Barchester Chronicles – by the BBC in 1982, in which Alan Rickman is the "odious evangelical" Obadiah Slope, Nigel Hawthorne plays Archdeacon Grantly and Donald Pleasence as the "naive but lovely" hero, Reverend Harding.

Join in the discussion onlinewww.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/

The Complete Chronicles of Barsetshire: (The Warden + Barchester Towers + Doctor Thorne + Framley Parsonage + The Small House at Allington + The Last Chronicle of Barset)

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Megan and Michael welcome "ecotheologian" Mick Pope into the studio to talk about climate change. Recorded before Australia's bushfire crisis worsened, this episode tackles big questions such as "is climate science watertight?" and "what's more important – climate action or evangelism?"

Our hosts discuss the theology behind climate action and whether or not the church should get involved in this "political" issue.

Also in this ep, an exploration of 2040 – an Aussie hybrid feature documentary by award-winning director Damon Gameau (That Sugar Film). The film explores what the future could look like by the year 2040 if we put our minds to it now.

Links related to this episode:

Mick Pope's books: A climate of justice: Loving your neighbour in a warming world; A climate of hope: Church and mission in a warming world (written with Claire Dawson); and All things new: God's plan to renew our world
New York Times article by Richard A. Muller: The conversion of a climate-change skeptic
Pope Francis' letter on the environment and human ecology: Laudato Si
Eternity article by Mick Pope: A letter to my fellow evangelicals about the environment
Eternity article by John Sandeman: Climate change versus the Bible
Example of recent media treatment of ScoMo's Pentecostal faith relating to climate change: Scott Morrison's religion and the bushfire crisis (Independent Australia)
ABC News interactive article: See how global warming has changed the world since your childhood
Christian Today article by Third Space's David Robertson: What is the truth about the Australian bushfires?
Religion Unplugged article on what US evangelicals believe about climate change: Why many evangelicals believe climate change is a hoax
The Gospel Coalition article on how evangelism leads to care for the environment: Review: ‘Is God Green?’ by Lionel Windsor
2040 film

Get to know our guest

Dr Mick Pope – self-described "ecotheologian" – has a PhD in Meteorology from Monash University, and lectures in meteorology and climate. He is currently studying a master's degree in theology and is Professor of Environmental Mission at Missional University. He is co-author of A climate of hope: Church and mission in a warming world, and author of A climate of justice: Loving your neighbour in a warming world and All things new: God's plan to renew our world.

Join in the discussion online

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We revisit episode 7 of With All Due Respect:

In For Argument's Sake, Megan and Michael tackle some holiday-themed sticky questions: Is Easter better than Christmas? Should we really be giving Christmas presents?

Megan points to an essay by G.K. Chesterton on the theology of Christmas presents. Find out why the duo think material gifts can be quite an important tradition, with a theological basis.

Michael suggests that Christmas is a display of God's abundance. It's also an ideal that can often be a terrible judge on those who don't match that ideal. And so, says Megan, "our abundance must not be a selfish abundance ... it should flow out onto the lowly, the unloved ... the lonely."

In a new Q&A segment, Megan and Michael answer a listener question: As two leaders in conservative denominations, how does the Holy Spirit move in your own lives? How open are you both to the prophetic and to signs and wonders? -- asked by Kirsty Farrugia (who also has her own podcast!)

Megan and Michael unpack what 'conservative' might mean in that question, running through their own denominations (Megan: Baptist, Michael: Anglican) and the variety of 'types' you can find in those denominations. Then they get straight into speaking in tongues, dreams and visions. Have either of them experienced such things? And do they think it matters if they haven't? Tune in to find out.

Check out some of the other suggested questions, here.

Then, in Marg and Dave, Megan and Michael review Christmas carols! What is the theology and background of the carols we sing every year.

Hint: they're not sure about Away in a manger ... of course Jesus cried as a baby!

They've created a Spotify carols playlist, for your listening pleasure. Check it out here. And here a few helpful resources to get deeper into the background of some of the most popular carols:

Hark! the herald angels sing
Mary, Did you know?(an example of the kind of discussion around this carol)
O Come All Ye Faithful and the Jacobites
Silent Night and war

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Warning: you may hear Megan and Michael munching on "Tumnus cake" throughout this episode. Head to the "Marge and Dave" section below for the recipe.

For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

It’s Christmas – but should Christians be feasting or fasting?

It's hard to avoid excessive amounts of food at this time of year. But should Christians be taking a counter-cultural approach, just as in Orthodox traditions where people have fasted during Advent for centuries?

Megan and Michael explore the theology of food and offer a biblical understanding of Christmas feasting.

Mentioned in this segment:

Bible passages:
"Physical training is of some value ..." – 1 Timothy 4:8
"Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them ..." – Mark 7:15
Jesus invites the disciples to a BBQ breakfast on the beach – John 21
Jesus feeds the five thousand – Matthew 14:13-21
Paul advises Timothy to drink "a little wine" – 1 Timothy 5:23
Paul corrects abuse of the Lord’s Supper (communion) – 1 Corinthians 11: 17-34
"Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers ..." – Hebrews 13:2
"Do not even eat with such people" – 1 Corinthians 5:11
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, German theologian – quote about isolation and community

Further reading:

Aleteia article: Christmas is coming — time to start fasting?

What’s going on? Going deeper into what’s happening in the church

Dinner Church Movement

In this brand new segment, Megan and Michael explore the relatively new Dinner Church Movement (which is actually based on ancient principles) and key thinker in this area, Kendall Vanderslice.

Mentioned in this segment:

The Dinner Church Movement Facebook page
Dinner Church Collective website
Kendall Vanderslice website and book We Will Feast: Rethinking Dinner, Worship, and the Community of God
Bible passages:
Jesus is the "bread of life" – John 6:35
"One does not live by bread alone ..." – Matthew 4:4
The walk to Emmaus – Luke 24:13-35

Further reading:

Religion News Service article: Dinner Church Movement sets the table for food, faith and friendships
Christianity Today article: Power in the plate
Faith and Leadership article: Kendall Vanderslice: Feasting brings people together in community

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones

Food in The Chronicles of Narnia series by CS Lewis

Mentioned in this segment:

Narnia recipes: Try your hand at making "Mr Tumnus’s Sugar-Topped Cake" (which Megan and Michael are munching on in this episode) or "Mrs Beaver's marmalade roll"
Mark Sayers' This Cultural Moment podcast

Further reading:

Notable food moments in The Chronicles of Narnia Wiki on Fandom website
Intersect Project article: Nourishment, delight, and fellowship: The purpose of food in The Chronicles of Narnia

Join in the discussion online

www.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/

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*Content warning: In the Marge & Dave section of this episode, the Netflix series discussed contains sexual assault.
For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Evangelicalism: is it on the nose?

"To own the name evangelical is a difficult thing to do in public these days ... It perhaps means what fundamentalist meant 15-20 years ago," says Michael.

Megan clarifies: It's often equated with being a Trump voter.

So what does the term evangelical actually mean and how does it apply to Australian Christians today?

Mentioned in this segment:

What is an Evangelical?, National Association of Evangelicals (using evangelical distinctives of historian David Bebbington)
NAE, LifeWay Research Publish Evangelical Beliefs Research Definition
Lifeway Research Many Who Call Themselves Evangelical Don’t Actually Hold Evangelical Beliefs
Joel Osteen – American pastor, televangelist and author
Hymn And Can it Be That I Should Gain

Further reading:

12 ways to be a true evangelical
Australian College of Theology's June 2019 Nexus magazine (edited by Megan Powell du Toit)
Evangelicals: Who They Have Been, Are Now, and Could Be, Mark Noll (Ed), David Bebbington (Ed), George Marsden (Ed) – coming soon

Be our guest: opening up the conversation to others

Stuart Piggin and Australian evangelical history

Winner of the 2019 Australian Christian Book of the Year award, Stuart Piggin, knows more about the true history of evangelical Christianity in Australia than most. He has been at the forefront of religious history study in Australia for more than three decades as Director of the Centre for the History of Christian Thought and Experience at Macquarie University (2005-16) and Head of the Department of Christian Thought of the Australian College of Theology.

On accepting this year's award for his book The Fountain of Public Prosperity: Evangelical Christians in Australian History 1740-1914 – written with Robert (Bob) Linder – Piggin said that we’ve “got our Australian history terribly wrong ... Jesus has been everywhere in Australia: in every community there are stories of him everywhere.”

On the release of his second book in the series, Attending to the National Soul: Evangelical Christians in Australian History, 1914-2014, Megan and Michael chat with Stuart about the massive impact of evangelicals on our nation.

Mentioned in this segment:

Stuart Piggin's books (written with Robert D. Linder): the award-winning The Fountain of Public Prosperity: Evangelical Christians in Australian History 1740-1914 and the newly released Attending to the National Soul: Evangelical Christians in Australian History, 1914-2014

Further reading:

A history of evangelical Christianity wins Australia's top Christian book

Glossary – Michael has been using big words again:

Hegelian synthesis: the philosophy of 19th-century German philosopher G.W.F. Hegel which says there is a higher stage of truth that combines the truth of a thesis and an antithesis.
Egalitarianism: the doctrine that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities.

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones

Unbelievable

*Content warning: the Netflix series discussed contains sexual assault.

Michael leads us into the murky depths of the Netflix true crime series Unbelievable, starring Toni Collette. A dramatisation of the 2008-2011 Washington and Colorado serial rape cases, Unbelievable follows "Marie, a teenager who was charged with lying about having been raped, and the two detectives who followed a twisting path to arrive at the truth." The miniseries is based on the 2015 news article "An Unbelievable Story of Rape", written by T. Christian Miller and Ken Armstrong.

So what does this series say about the role not only of faith but of evangelicalism in society? Listen in to this episode to find out.

Also mentioned in this segment:

Isaiah 6:8
Song In Christ Alone

Further reading:

This American Life podcast Anatomy of Doubt
Article Unbelievable: Netflix Shows Christian Faith at Work

Join in the discussion online

www.facebook.com/groups/WADRbyEternityNews/

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For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Can social media be done well?

It's easy to dehumanise people in social media debates. Just look at the hurtful comments directed at 16-year-old Swedish climate activist Greta Thunberg after she spoke at the UN's Climate Action Summit in September 2019.

So how do you disagree online without being aggressive? Is it OK for Christians to block or unfriend people? And how can Christians enter into social discussions without making Christianity look mean or dumb?

Mentioned in this segment:

Michael's Facebook post about those who attacked Greta Thunberg for her Asperger's syndrome
The Age of Surveillance Capitalism by Shoshana Zuboff review – we are the pawns
Michael's article: Through a Glass Darkly: Social Media and the Paradox of Virtual Intimacy
Matt Anslow responds to Megan's article 'Social media spirituality': Social media and engaging rightly: in conversation with Megan Powell du Toit
Megan's articles: Social media spirituality and How to negotiate the gender divide on social media

Further reading:

Greta Thunberg's Digital Rise Calls Back to a Pre-Digital Era

You did WHAT now? A peek at what the other 'M' has been up to

Megan's article on how Christians should respond on social media to the same-sex marriage plebiscite

During one of Australia's biggest social debates, Megan chose to speak out about how Christians should speak out online.

She raises this crucial point: What's more important to win arguments at all costs or our relationships with people and our gospel witness?

Mentioned in this segment:

Social media and the SSM plebiscite: a how-to guide
Bible verse: James 3:5
The Guardian's review – The Madness of Crowds by Douglas Murray review – a rightwing diatribe

Further reading:

Fact checking sites: Media Bias Fact Check, Associated Press Fact Check and Poynter International Fact Checking Network

Glossary:

epistemologically - relating to a branch of philosophy that studies how we know things
polemic - an aggressive attack on or defence of a particular opinion

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones

Jan Fran's social media

Can you review social media pages? Yep, looks like it.

Megan introduces Michael to Jeanette Francis, better known as Jan Fran – an Australian journalist and presenter, who is also queen of the short video Facebook post. There's a lot to learn from her about social media dos and don'ts.

Mentioned in this segment:

Jan Fran’s Facebook and Twitter pages, as well as her website
Jane Caro's Twitter page
Julia Baird's Twitter page
Jan Fran's video ScoMo: Scared of women? Or doesn't want to give up power?
Jan Fran's video The Frant: Gender Wage Gap
The Wife Drought – Why Women need Wives, and Men need Lives by Annabel Crabb

Join in the discussion online

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For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Will the Religious Discrimination Bill be a good thing?

Freedom for Faith's executive director Michael Kellahan is in the hot seat, as Megan and Michael throw some contentious questions at him about the Religious Discrimination Bill:

Don't we already have religious freedom in Australia?
Can the bill actually create discrimination?
Is a bill of rights – which also covers other freedoms – a better approach?

Mentioned in this segment:

Draft Religious Freedom Bills – including the Religious Discrimination Bill
Sydney Anglican Archbishop's apology over letter about religious freedom
Hobart Catholic Archbishop case of religious freedom

Further listening/reading:

With All Due Respect episode 5 – Public vs private schools, religious freedom and that letter on gay teachers
A simple guide to the religious discrimination bill
The Government’s Plans for Freedom of Religion Legislation

Discomfort zone: ever thought someone might think differently if they step outside their comfort zone? This is where we make the other do just that.

The Madness of Crowds - Gender, Race and Identity by Douglas Murray

Michael chose this book knowing that Megan wouldn't like it. Guess what? She didn't. Written by a journalist for the UK's Spectator, the book tackles the epic issues of sexuality, gender, technology and race, as well as forgiveness and justice.

Mentioned in this segment:

The Madness of Crowds by Douglas Murray
The Guardian's review – The Madness of Crowds by Douglas Murray review – a rightwing diatribe
Black Lives Matter movement

Glossary:

Cultural Marxism: an ambiguous term and many believe that what it refers to doesn't really exist. The term is often used to flag behaviour that applies Marxist class theory to broader categories – such as race, gender and sexuality.
Raison d'etre: A French phrase meaning 'reason for being'

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones

The Post

Megan introduces us to Steven Spielberg's gripping film on the true story of Washington Post journalists who attempted to publish classified documents about the US government's involvement in the Vietnam War. The film ring bells about the recent Australian police raids on the ABC. It also leads to the question: is freedom of the press worth defending, particularly in this era of fake news?

Mentioned in this segment:

The Post

Further reading:

AFP raid on ABC reveals investigative journalism being put in same category as criminality
Katharine Graham's memoir Personal History
Comparing 'The Post' to Katharine Graham’s memoir

Join in the discussion online

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For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Does the Trinity matter?

Warning: we're venturing into spiritually dangerous territory.

The Trinity has been in the news of late because of outspoken religious footballer Israel Folau. Folau and his church subscribe to a form of "oneness Pentecostalism", which doesn't hold to the doctrine of the Trinity – that God is three distinct persons in one.

So does the Trinity really matter or, as Michael asks, "is it just an arcane piece of theological knowledge designed to keep ministers busy?"

Mentioned in this segment:

Eternity article by "Parent X" – Parent X: Why I told the SMH about Folau
John Dickson's Facebook post about the Trinity
Michael's (very old) article about the Trinity (written when he was five years old, reportedly) – The very practical doctrine of the Trinity

Further reading:

Eternity article by Tom Richards – Israel Folau's problem with the Trinity
Eternity article discussing the role of the Trinity, “Eternal Subordination” and gender – What the Bible teaches on women, according to a conservative subversive
The Anglican Church's Sydney Diocese view on Trinity and gender – The doctrine of the Trinity and its bearing on the relationship between men and women

Clarification:

Just to prove the Trinity is a bit tricky, Megan and Michael confused each other at one point in this segment by talking about different things. So, when they are talking about the will of God, Megan was talking about the unity of the will of the Godhead while Michael was talking about the two wills of Jesus (divine and human).

Where credit's due

How our view of the Trinity is formed: creeds and confessions

Here's where we draw a line between the faith practices of our two favourite hosts: Megan is a Baptist, who are generally "non-credal" (ie. they believe the Bible is enough), whereas Michael is an Anglican, a denomination that has long used creeds.

So do we need formal statements of our beliefs? And which came first anyway: the creeds and confessions, or communal beliefs about the God we believe in, like the Trinity?

Mentioned in this segment:

Baptist Church (NSW and ACT) statement of beliefs
Anglican Church's Nicene Creed, Apostles' Creed and 39 articles
Hillsong's song to the words of the Apostles' Creed – This I Believe – and John Dickson's role in the song's creation
New Eternity podcast featuring John Dickson (thanks for the plug, Michael) – Undeceptions

Further listening:

Hymn about the Trinity reimagined for modern audiences by Audrey Assad – Holy, Holy, Holy

Glossary - there's some heavy-duty words in this topic, so here's some definitions:

creed: a formal statement of Christian beliefs
Calvanistic: relating to the teachings of theologian John Calvin
heremeneutical: a method of interpreting the Bible
liturgy: a communal script used during church worship
doxology: words of praise (often sung) during Christian worship services

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones

John Donne: the poetry of the Trinity

Saucy, erotic and holy: three words you can use to describe the poetry of English writer and Anglican cleric John Donne. Megan and Michael venture into Donne's intimate exploration of the Trinity in a way that only poetry can.

Mentioned in this segment:

“Batter my heart, three-person’d God”
“Wilt thou love God as He thee?”, along with Romans 8 and Psalm 8
“Father, part of His double interest”
Miroslav Wolf ("sexy theologian")

Further reading:

Further poems by John Donne
Eternity article on John Donne – Bringing Sexy Back
Article by the Gospel Coalition on the holy sonnets of John Donne – Battered by Donne: A Personal Appreciation of the Religious Poetry of John Donne

Glossary of tricky terms in this segment:

lothario: a man who seduces a lot of women

Join in the discussion online

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For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Are family values biblical?

What's more important, our nuclear family or our church family? Do we idolise marriage in the church and in society at the expense of other relationships?

Megan and Michael decode the cosy phrase "family values" and look at what the Bible actually says on the topic.

Mentioned in this segment:

Book by Eli J. Finkel that outlines the history of marriage – The All-or-Nothing Marriage

Glossary:

Megan and Michael sometimes like to use big words, so here's a glossary of particularly lofty terms in this segment.

deleterious: causing harm or damage
raison d'etre: A French phrase meaning reason for being
sesquipedalian: used to describe a word that's very long (OK this wasn't really mentioned in the segment but you see why it's applicable)

Be our guest

Dani Treweek and a theology of singleness

Our guest this episode, Dani Treweek, has spent a lot of time thinking about singleness and the church – as a single Christian woman, a minister and in writing her PhD on a theological and pastoral ethic of singleness.

"Part of the problem with singleness is that we see it as a problem because it's not marriage," she explains.

Michael and Megan chat with Dani about the biblical view of singleness and marriage, and how the church can better relate to singles.

Mentioned in this segment:

Dani Treweek's blog on Sydney Anglicans website (addressing John MacArthur's views on singleness) –
The "problem" with singleness
Beth Felker Jones's book – Faithful: A Theology of Sex
Singled Minded Conference

Further reading:

Eternity article on the Reproductive Health Care Reform Bill 2019 – Christians suggest changes to abortion bill
Eternity opinion article by Paul O’Rourke, CEO of pro-life media and advocacy organisation, Emily’s Voice – What the Bible says about abortion

You did WHAT now? Looking at what the other M has been up to

Michael, always prepared to put himself on the line, has been stepping into the charged abortion debate on social media and in the press in an attempt to change the tone of the conversation.

A descendant of "backyard abortionists", Michael is aware of the "real human cost of an unregulated abortion industry", as well as the moral complexity of the abortion issue.

He makes this vital point for everyone in the church: In a society where one-quarter of women will experience an abortion, "If you don't think you have women in your congregation who have had an abortion, think again."

So how can Christians respond graciously instead of aggressively to this polarising issue? Listen up to how Michael and Megan are doing it.

Mentioned in this segment:

Michael's Facebook post and subsequent article in The Daily Telegraph – Pro-life or choice, abortion nothing to celebrate
Michael's appearance on the ABC's The Drum program – Episode 154, September 5, 2019
Eternity article on the first 'Stand for Life' protest – Thousands gather in Sydney in last ditch effort to stop abortion bill

Further reading:

Eternity article on the second 'Stand for Life' protest – Abortion rally told ‘Choose Life!’
Eternity opinion article by church minister Mike Paget – Yes, there's abortion in your church

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones

Now we're squarely in Megan's domain: discussing Season 3 of the dystopian TV series The Handmaid’s Tale – in particular episodes 8, 9 and 13 (the final).

Why has this show become so connected to the abortion debate (so that just wearing a red cloak signals a pro-choice stance)?

Megan guides Michael, and listeners, through the undercurrents of death-happy Gilead, exploring the nuances of values, conflict, faith and society.

Here's a taste of just one of the profound revelations Megan uncovers: "Looking after children is more than just getting them born; it is about giving them good lives."

Further reading:

Independent article on the show's connection to real life – The Handmaid's Tale compared to Alabama abortion law vote: 'This is happening in our country in 2019'
Margaret Atwood speaks to Her about her book that sparked the TV series – The author of The Handmaid's Tale has plenty to say about anti-abortion laws
Eternity articles on The Handmaid's Tale – Has The Handmaid's Tale become ho-hum and The Handmaid’s Tale: religion gone wrong

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Welcome back! Season two of With All Due Respect starts with a bang ...

For argument's sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

It's game on as Megan and Michael address the elephant in the room: the issue of gender in the church.

This topic marks one of the deepest divides among evangelical Christians, and the church in general. It's also one of the biggest disagreements between Megan and Michael personally (and the discussion that Michael's been avoiding because of the painful responses it can provoke).

So what should women do in the church and why does it matter anyway?

It's time for Megan and Michael to tie their colours to the mast: exactly what do they think about the "c word" (complementarianism) and the "e word" (egalitarianism), what's the biblical basis for these positions and how do they play out in the life of Christians and the church today.

While on opposite sides of the debate, both Megan and Michael agree that this is not just a "women's issue".

Further reading:

Michael has written on feminism for Eternity – Perhaps feminism is not the enemy
Megan has written on sex and power in the church for Eternity – Christians need to reform their ideas about sex and power

Also mentioned in this segment:

Created Or Constructed? Great Gender Debate by Elaine Storkey
Michael gives a shout-out to Matt Anslow, a member of the With All Due Respect Facebook group, who asked the following question (abbreviated): “My assumption is that God, being wholly good, gives us commands that are for our good ... Complementarians, at least as far as I’m aware, are unable to point to any objective good secured by prohibiting women from exercising these certain ministry roles. Usually the reason given for upholding these teachings is simply that God has commanded it in Scripture, and exegetical arguments ensue.
Keeping in mind that such commands are seen by many Christians as only being intended for and applicable to their original contexts, what objective goods do complementarians think are being secured by upholding their teaching on ministry roles?”

Q&A: you ask us questions, and we answer without the spin

You can’t ask that! Oh but you did, and Megan and Michael asked you to. The pair field a handful of some 600 questions about gender identity and the church thrown at them by members of With All Due Respect Facebook group – a community of Christians committed to respectful public conversation.

Megan goes into bat for the "feminist egalitarian" team and Michael the "moderate complementarian" team.

Here's just a taste of some of the curly questions they address: Isn't egalitarianism just about women seeking power? Does complementarianism always lead to abuse?

Mentioned in this segment:

Both Megan and Michael have chapters in the book The Gender Conversation: Evangelical Perspectives on Gender, Scripture and the Christian Life.
Megan’s chapter is about gender construction, culture and Scripture, calling for both men and women to image Christ.
Michael's chapter is about responding to domestic and family violence by understanding the new call to mutuality and transformed masculinity.

The secret life of us: what makes the other one tick

Time to get personal.

Michael asks Megan, "Am I a misogynist?"

Megan asks Michael, "Do you think I'm called by God?"

After this epic first ep for season two, our co-hosts may not have solved the issues around gender roles in the church but hopefully we've reached a starting point for mutual respect, understanding and further conversation.

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* With All Due Respect is taking a short break over August and will be back in the first week of September. First episode back with be about ... GENDER. ***

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

It's been almost a year since the the first episode of With All Due Respect, and we're coming back to the question that started it all: Can we agree to disagree?

Megan says this has become even more crucial since the WADR project began.

But it's confession time and Michael jumps straight in:

There's one topic that Megan and Michael (and Michael in particular) have been avoiding so far: Gender and the church. It's a topic that marks a deep divide among evangelical Christians, and Christians more generally. It's one of the biggest disagreements Megan and Michael have personally, too. And Michael says he's been avoiding the issue on the podcast because of the painfulness and difficulty that discussing it can often invoke.

So how do we tear down those barriers with other Christians who feel so strongly and differently to us? We may never get to common agreement, but trying to find common ground and to understand where each other is coming from should be the aim.

Megan says one of the ways she tries to interact with people is remember that that person has just as rich an internal world as she does - with all their life experiences, hurts and joys. So labelling someone (Megan is often labelled as a "progressive feminist") flattens them. And she says assuming someone else's intentions is just as bad in this.

Cue: virtue signalling

Megan says one way you can assume someone else's intentions - especially online - is by saying they're "virtue signalling". That is, when you are expressing values in a way that people say you're doing it so that you can be seen to be a good person. In Megan's experience, it's often something the right accuses of people on the left.

"It's a destructive thing to say to another person and deeply cynical," she says.

"The place for dialogue is not where we draw out the worst in people, but where we address the best in people."

But telling someone that they're virtue-signalling is essentially shutting down the conversation and refusing to see that there might be other reasons for what they're saying.

Michael wonders if the same can be said when someone dismisses his opinion by saying, "You would say that, you're a white male."

Both Megan and Michael refer to the With All Due Respect Facebook group, where they are trying to moderate the discussion in a way that reframes conversations and doesn't shut down discussion by the terms and phrases we use.

The duo take a look at other Christian podcasts out there who have attempted to frame their conversations in different ways and wonder if often our fences are too high. Is there a place for fences that discourage those who disagree with us?

The secret life of us: what makes the other one tick

Megan and Michael talk about how they've experienced the With All Due Respect journey and what's come up personally for them.

The WADR Facebook Group has been an interesting experiment to see how things in the podcast play out in real (or atleast social) life.

And Michael and Megan reminisce about how they first met and their first responses to each other.

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones.

This episode, it's Megan's choice: Won’t you be my neighbor? (2018) documentary on Mister Rogers.

Fred Rogers (March 20, 1928 – February 27, 2003) was an American television personality, musician, puppeteer, writer, producer, and Presbyterian minister. He was known as the creator, composer, producer, head writer, showrunner and host of the preschool television series Mister Rogers' Neighborhood (1968–2001). Rogers would end each program by telling his viewers, "You've made this day a special day, by just your being you. There's no person in the whole world like you; and I like you just the way you are."

Megan thinks there are real connections in what they're trying to do with With All Due Respect.

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For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

While beauty can be an abstract subject, it's also something that cuts into our everyday lives. Megan and Michael wanted to talk about this subject because they both feel the evangelical world can feel a bit confining when talking about beauty. Megan says her experience of baptists in particular is that they have a strained relationship with beauty.

"There's a suspicion of the beautiful, which goes back to the church fathers," says Michael. Something also happens during the Reformation, when Protestants want to get away from the visual, smash the statues and go back to the verbal. Luther even said that the ears are the organ of the Christian, not the eyes.

Evangelicalism is quite a pragmatic faith. "We're not cathedral builders," says Michael. "We want to things to make a difference," says Megan, so the feeling is that there's no time for "frippery".

Michael and Megan explore what beauty is - is it just 'high art' or is it broader than that? What can nature teach us about beauty? And is there a commonality of the experience of beauty that might be objective truth?

Megan has been reading Culture Care by Makoto Fujimura - an artist, academic and Christian -which issues a call to feed our culture's soul with beauty, creativity and generosity. As many Christians become more embattled in culture wars, Fujimura is asking how Christians can be people who draw others into beauty.

Also mentioned in this segment:

The deepening crisis is evangelical Christianity in The Atlantic: "Evangelical Christians need another model for cultural and political engagement, and one of the best I am aware of has been articulated by the artist Makoto Fujimura, who speaks about “culture care” instead of “culture war."

Where credit's due: the influences that form and move us

It's Megan's turn to pick a book that was meaningful to her: Surprised by Joy by CS Lewis - the story of Lewis being converted to belief in God and then eventually to belief in Christianity.

Lewis' experience of beauty - which he calls experiences of joy - resonated with Megan, particularly when Lewis talks of creating imaginative worlds with his brothers as a child.

Michael says he picked up on the sense of longing through Lewis' work - deep in the heart of humans there is something that longs for the eternal.

Beauty, says Megan, shows us that things are significant, special. As the poet Gerard Manley Hopkins writes, "The world is charged with the grandeur of God."

Further reading:

Michael has written on beauty for Eternity – Are Christians scared of beauty? and Why is there beauty in the world?

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones.

We're talking transcendent music and faith. And Michael wants to talk about Bach: "The Christian who has done more to advance the cause of beauty than anyone is Johann Sebastian Bach," he says.

Megan, on the other hand, says the music that makes her think of beauty is African American spirituals: "there's a beauty in the sadness, but yet the hope ... there's a beauty that comes out of a the experience of humanity." One song in particular featured in season 3 of The Handmaid's Tale during a scene of infant baptism, 'Down to the river to pray'.

Also mentioned in this segment:

Well-Tempered Clavier, Bach
Mass in B Minor, Bach
O Sacred Head Sore Wounded (From St Matthew's Passion, Bach)
Down to the River to Pray, Alison Krauss version as seen on The Handmaid's Tale

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For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Do you need to 'experience' God in order to have real faith? Michael says he suggested this question because in his pastoral experience there are often questions about whether people should have had a spiritual or religious experience and whether you're a Christian if you haven't had one.

What if you don't ever have that feeling some describe as an "immediate, powerful, palpable experience of the spirit" that can be of great encouragement to those who receive them?

Megan offers the flipside to this, in that she believes that some in a more intellectually-based faith tradition are often questioned about their spiritual experiences in a way that makes them feel like they're in some way "dodgy".

The way different faith communities deal with spiritual or religious experience can make this subject fraught.

Michael says his views have changed and he hopes 'matured'. He believes God can give us religious experiences from time to time: they are individual and meant to encourage us. But because they are experiences we must be very careful, he says. We shouldn't normalise those experiences to the extent that those with different ones don't feel like they're Christians or don't feel like they have the Holy Spirit.

Megan has a different perspective, coming from her observations of those who don't 'experience God'. "Without experience, faith is ailing," she says. "The experience of God must be present ... but whether we're noticing it is another thing." The way we talk about those experiences and how we teach people to understand them is sub-par in the church today, Megan says.

How can we help people to be attentive to God in their lives. Megan believes a pastor must first be attentive to God in their own lives. "There needs to be more room for the contemplation part of the pastoral role," she argues. If you're also immersed in Scripture, you come to understand better how God speaks and acts. Michael says it's also about teaching people to pray. Bible study should also be a place for spiritual direction. It doesn't have to be just about reading the word and understanding the word, but about how to take that understanding into our lives to see the hand of God at work.

Listening to others' experiences of God might also make us more attune to the work of God in our own lives, says Megan. It doesn't always have to be listening to God at the top of a mountain or in a cave - it's seeing God in your every day experience, how he meets needs. There is an attentiveness required.

A lot of the time the people who say they haven't had an experience of God just need help with the vocabulary to use.

Michael warns against the dangers of making experience so much in the foreground that we forget to parse it through Scripture. "We don't have a fresh revelation that overturns scripture."

Also mentioned in this segment:

The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James

The secret life of us: in which we try to figure out what makes the other one tick

Megan and Michael discuss their own religious experiences and how they've affected their faith. They look back at how such experiences were spoken about in their families of origin.

Michael says he grew up in a Christian household often trying to deal with the tension of being treated as a Christian for as long as he could remember but also waiting for that moment of 'conversion'. He says he certainly had an intellectualised sense of the faith especially in later teens and university.

Megan, on the other hand, says her mother is a person who has had many supernatural experiences and so she grew up talking a lot about those experiences and having some of her own.

The duo also open up about when they've felt spiritually dry and how they've managed to come back to God.

Also mentioned in this segment:

CS Lewis’ Surprised by Joy: “For those who are still disposed to proceed I will only underline the quality common to the three experiences; it is that of an unsatisfied desire which is itself more desirable than any other satisfaction. I call it Joy, which is here a technical term and must be sharply distinguished both from Happiness and from Pleasure. Joy (in my sense) has indeed one characteristic, and one only, in common with them; the fact that anyone who has experienced it will want it again.”

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones.

Les Murray (17 October 1938 – 29 April 2019) was a prize winning Australian poet, anthologist, and critic. His career spanned over 40 years and he published nearly 30 volumes of poetry as well as two verse novels and collections of his prose writings. He was rated in 1997 by the National Trust of Australia as one of the 100 Australian Living Treasures.

Murray's poetry is full of his religious experience. He said it was because that was his experience.

"The true god gives his flesh and blood. Idols demand yours off you." That quote, says Michael, which is from Murray's poem Church, should be on church signs everywhere. "It points to the significance of Christ in this consumer economy that sucks us dry," says Michael.

Poems mentioned in this segment:

Poetry and Religion
An Absolutely Ordinary Rainbow
The Broad Bean Sermon
The Last Hellos
The Church

Further reading:

Greg Clarke reflects on Les Murray after his death: Not absolutely ordinary at all
Les Murray's conversion experience, as written by Catholic Weekly
Thomas Keneally on Murray's death

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For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Can we (Christians, that is!) do politics without being partisan? There's been a storm since Australians discovered the outcome of the Federal election, particularly within the Aussie Christian community. Some Christians seem unable to believe that there are others of their faith who would have voted the opposite of them. And because the outcome of the election was so unexpected, there was a lot of "unvarnished" gut reactions on social media.

Megan and Michael discuss whether it's possible to remain a 'Christian community' when we are so tribalised. And what part should prayer play when it comes to praying for our leaders, especially for those with whom we strongly disagree?

Both Megan and Michael agree that Christians don't need to be apolitical. We are told to have a drive for justice. But how can we do it better? Megan suggests acknowledging real emotions on either side is a good place to start. The pair candidly share how they personally voted, discussing the reasons for their choice and try to model how to respectfully disagree on political priorities while holding to core truths of the gospel.

Also mentioned in this segment:

Donald Trump turning up unannounced at a Virginian church in the middle of a service for prayer.
Unapologetic by Francis Spufford

Discomfort Zone: ever think someone might think differently if they step outside their comfort zone? This is where we make the other do just that.

Michael gets to choose the book this episode and it is ... The Second Mountain: The quest for the moral life by David Brooks. Brooks is a Canadian-born American centre-right political and cultural commentator who writes for The New York Times.

Everybody tells you to live for a cause larger than yourself, but how exactly do you do it? Brooks explores what it takes to lead a meaningful life in a self-centred world.

Megan says she certainly wouldn't have read the book had Michael not suggested it. But she really liked it. "It's like the book that I would have written if I was a conservative dude," she says jokingly. But Brooks' emphasis on joy and community also captured her attention.

Michael says he sees this book as one that he can use in pastoring people, especially those in their 40s who are looking to disentangle from their individualism and look to something greater.

In his book, Brooks argues that such individualism makes people so disconnected that they flock to their "tribe", and contributes to the 'us' and 'them' issues we have in politics.

Read more on Christian discussion of David Brook's book:

On The Gospel Coalition website: David Brooks on his journey as a wandering Jew and a confused Christian
From Christianity Today: How David Brooks meandered toward God

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones.

We're looking at Derry Girls this week. You can watch the first season on Netflix.

Derry Girls is a comedy set in Derry, Northern Ireland. It’s about the lives of ordinary people living under the spectre of the Troubles in the early nineties, all seen through the eyes of 16 year old Erin and her friends. Writer Lisa McGee bases the story on her own experiences of growing up in Northern Ireland as a normal sixteen year old girl amidst civil conflict.

How does a community with those deep divisions go about living in it?

The Second Mountain: The Quest for a Moral Life

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For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Empathy has become immensely popular. Why?

We have a desire to be understood. We want empathy to be shown to us. And we want to be able to stand in other people's shoes so we can communicate to them.

Empathy is something Megan and Michael have been speaking about together for quite some time. And it may or may not surprise you that they disagree. Megan is pro empathy. Michael is not.

Michael has been reading Against Empathy by Paul Bloom which argues that empathy has become a substitute for morality. And while it has its uses, there are problems with empathy including:

Empathy is biased. We're more likely to show someone empathy who is like us.
While what's great about empathy is it focuses on the person in front of us, it makes it very hard to think of the thousands or millions who are suffering, from an empathetic point of view.
Empathy can be manipulated.

Megan, on the other hand, says the way she views empathy has a Christian basis which may not necessarily be how the rest of society views it. There's an other-centred empathy that tries to get across difference, rather than an empathy that ends up directed just towards others in your own group - which is one of the critiques of empathy in modern times.

Megan and Michael grapple with the definitional problems with empathy: what is it, exactly?

Also mentioned in this segment:

The End of Empathy, article on NPR by Hanna Rosin
Dark Sides of Empathy by Fritz Breithaupt
Alan Alda's conversation with Paul Bloom: Is empathy good or bad?
Daniel Goleman 'The EQ guy' on types of equity.
Brené Brown on empathy

Discomfort Zone: ever think someone might think differently if they step outside their comfort zone? This is where we make the other do just that.

Megan asks Michael to watch Brené Brown's Netflix special on courage. His initial reaction was to say, "I thought that was a girl thing." Perhaps you can imagine Megan's response?

Michael says he enjoyed watching it and learning more about Brené Brown, partially because she's funny, but also because she can be very insightful.

Both Michael and Megan draw connections between Brené Brown and Jordan Peterson, though they come to very different opinions on both.

Brené Brown also talks a lot about shame, arguing in broad strokes that shame for women is around body issues and shame for men is showing weakness. Megan and Michael reflect personally on whether they agree with her analysis.

Also mentioned in this segment:

Brené Brown's TED Talk on vulnerability
Megan's review article on Brené Brown's Netflix special for Eternity

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones.

Megan's choice this episode: The Darkest Hour, the 2017 war drama film about Winston Churchill.

Churchill and Brené Brown might seem to be an odd couple for this episode, but actually The Darkest Hour brings out a lot to talk about empathy in leadership.

The common perception of Churchill is all around the strength of his leadership. But Megan says what surprised her in this movie is his vulnerability and doubt.

Megan and Michael discuss what it takes to be a good leader, using Churchill and his experiences as their guide. Is having empathy enough?

Against Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion

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Can you both love the church and think it sucks at the same time? Well, it's probably what Jesus thinks, says Michael. So we think yes, it's possible!

This topic, says Megan, is inspired by the With All Due Respect Facebook group and members (if you'd like to join, click here). In a thread where members introduce themselves, Michael and Megan realised there were a lot of people who've been really hurt by the church.

Michael suggests reading Paul's letters to the Corinthians in the New Testament, where Paul calls the Corinthians 'saints' and yet is pretty scathing of some of their behaviour. In the Bible, there is never a perfect church. It's about the people of God living out their relationship with God as sinners. That doesn't mean we're happy with that, but it does tell us there's a normality about it - tragic as that is.

Megan points to a movement called "Ex-vangelicals", a reaction against the church mainly in the United States, after evangelicals got tied up in support of Donald Trump. There are also plenty of memoirs about those exploring their faith and 'coming out' of conservatism. See Rachel Held Evans and Sarah Bessey, as examples.

Megan and Michael discuss the cultural stereotype that has arisen around the word 'evangelicals' and whether a similar movement of ex-vangelicals might be seen in Australia. As an evangelical himself, Michael is not so sure.

The duo also discuss how to respond to those people who have had a bad experience of church in a local community setting versus those who take broader issue with the church as an institution. Michael encourages people to keep up their search for a good church, and not to give up on meeting with other Christians because churches can fail very badly. There can also be great healing in the local church with fellow believers, he says.

And how should we deal with critiques of the church? Megan suggests that members of the church, and leaders in particular, need to be critiquing themselves as well as listening carefully to others. More on that in the Marg and Dave segment this week.

Also mentioned in this segment:

Lego Masters Eternity article

Where credit's due: talking the influences that form and move us

This is a new segment, where Megan and Michael get to share things that they really like!

Michael get to choose this week: Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

Bonhoeffer was writing this book in the 1930s while he was in charge of a small underground seminary that had broken away from the German Christian mainstream movement because of its allegiance to Hitler. The seminary was set up on a farm and he was training pastors there, while trying to find new footing for the church.

"It's a very intense book. But I think it's amazing," says Michael.

Megan's impression was that Bonhoeffer is writing from a place of disappointment in the church, which makes it quite appropriate for this episode.

There's plenty in this discussion about what good community as church really means. But also, says Michael, he appreciated what Bonhoeffer says about solitude. While we do need our alone time with God, that's part of being in community.

Our relationship with God is something we share with each other, says Megan.

What is some advice on returning to church for someone who hasn't been to church for a while?

Megan suggests asking whether there is someone in their lives who they think, 'Wow, I'd love to have that person in a Christian community.' That might be a good place to start. Connect with them first.

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories, but not always the same ones.

It's cartoon time! Megan and Michael take a look at The Naked Pastor cartoons. Michael is less familiar with them than Megan, who says there is a lot of take up of these cartoons by people who are feeling dissatisfied with church.

The artist was a pastor who has moved out of pastoring and it's not clear where he stands on Christianity.

"I help people lose their faith without losing their minds," the artist says.

The cartoons themselves is pretty much all critique, which Megan finds amusing often but Michael isn't sold.

Here are some of the cartoons talked about in this segment:

https://nakedpastor.com/warning-questions-will-lead-you-astray/

https://nakedpastor.com/becoming-my-most-popular-women-and-the-resurrection/

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Notes on episode 16

Are we a persecuted people?

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Do Christians have a persecution complex? And are we being persecuted here in Australia?

Discussion around persecution has heated up since the Christchurch shootings where 50 Muslims were killed by a gunman who entered two mosques in March.

The conversation has ramped even further since Rugby player Israel Folau posted a message on Instagram with a list of people - including homosexuals - who would be going to hell if they didn't repent, and has been found in high-level breach of the Rugby Australia code of conduct, which means he could lose his job (and $4 million contract).

Megan and Michael delve into the complexity of persecution, looking at the news reporting of Christian and Muslim persecution in different parts of the world and asking questions about whether there's more to persecution than just other people not liking Christians.

And they set about answering the question: how can we show solidarity with the persecuted church while at the same time not playing the victim-hood game?

Mentioned in this segment:

Open Doors World Watch List 2019: an annual report which lists the countries experiencing the worst persecution of Christians.
Al Jezeera article looking at Muslim persecution, December 2018

You did WHAT now? Looking at what the other M has been up to

This episode, it's Megan's turn to read a few articles written by Michael.

The first is an article from 2013 on martyrdom (a subject on which Michael did his PhD) for ABC titled Christian martyrdom and modern identity: Against Candida Moss and Salman Rushdie.

The second, written for the Sydney Morning Herald was about the missionary John Chau, titled Like Jesus, US missionary accepted death as the price of reaching out. John Allen Chau who a young missionary who was killed by the North Sentinelese people on the isolated North Sentinel Island, seven hundred miles off the coast of mainland India in 2018.

Unfortunately, martyrdom has become tied up with suicide bombings, but Michael says Christian martyrdom isn't just about dying for your group. It's also about dying for your enemies. Christians died with words like 'we honour and emperor and pray for him'.

Megan questions our use of the word 'martyr' and how we decide who is a martyr. Some in the media have called Israel Folau a martyr, for example, though not as much in Christian circles, observes Megan.

"Sometimes we use the idea of martyrdom' in order to justify actions which may not be necessary, or may be unwise, or just wrong," says Megan.

Michael reflects that what sometimes happened in the ancient church was people would look for ways to become a martyr. But that's not right, says Michael. Martyrdom is not something we bring down on ourselves, it's something that is in God's sovereignty.

So what about John Allen Chau? Was he a martyr or did he just do something silly? Tune in to find out what Megan and Michael think.

Mentioned in this segment:

Arthur Davis writing for Eternity: John Chau's death raises serious questions
The Exiled Preacher blog on martyrdom and the Christian life
The Female Martyrs’ #MeToo Message, Lynn Cohick for Christianity Today

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories but not always the same one

Megan and Michael watch Silence, a Scorsese film (you can stream it on SBS On Demand). Martyrdom and persecution is at the heart of this story.

Silence is a 2016 historical period drama film directed by Martin Scorsese with a screenplay by Jay Cocks and Scorsese, based on the 1966 novel of the same name by Shūsaku Endō. Silence is the third of Scorsese's films about religious figures struggling with challenges of faith, following The Last Temptation of Christ and Kundun. The film follows the story of two Catholic missionaries (Andrew Garfield and Adam Driver) who travel to Japan in search of their missing mentor (Liam Neeson) - at a time when Catholicism was outlawed.

Michael has reviewed the film for the IFES Journal.

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Notes on episode 15

War: what is it good for? We're talking about the God of the Anzacs + Australian war songs.

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

War is a controversial topic among Christians. We have been divided in the past over whether war is something Christians should endorse. And there have been historical instances where religion was responsible for "whipping up" war, as Michael says, recalling the Pope and the Crusades. In this contemporary world we live in we still see a connection with religion and violence. So what do we do with this aspect of our faith?

Megan and Michael discuss whether there is ever justification for Christians to not be pacifists? Might there be a case, thinking through the 'Just War' theory, where it is absolutely necessary to go to war?

And then there's the Anzac tradition and the dangers of romanticising war. Michael says that while he believes it is important to honour those who went to war on our behalf, we should question whether we are glorifying bloodshed rather than bemoaning it. Megan wonders whether the Anzac tradition has changed now to be more like myth or legend.

Did you know? Much of the Anzac Day commemoration events were started by a Christian minister, Canon David John Garland? Megan and Michael say they have observed that much of the Christian 'commemorative' aspects of Anzac Day services have been stripped away, to become more about Australia and our national character which has been formed through bloody sacrifice. Megan also questions the male emphasis of Anzac, saying in her research Australian nurses were originally very involved in Anzac commemorations, but seem to have been sidelined now. "It's an exclusionary myth, and not just for women," she says.

Also mentioned in this segment:

Stanley Haerwaus - "the pacifist you want on your side in a bar room brawl" - has put a strong case for Christians not being involved in war.
Augustine and 'Just war'. Read more here or here.
Miroslav Volf's Exclusion and Embrace
Canon David Garland and Anzac commemoration services (see also this ABC article on Canon Garland)
The Great War nurses story
Anzac Day: is it just for the boys? from the University of Melbourne.
David Malouf's The Great World
A Peculiar Obsession, SMH: Professor Tom Frame (ex navy, bishop to defence, now academic) says it is important we remember that ''commemoration'' is different from ''celebration'' and from ''contrition''. The centenary is a commemoration, but if we are going to err it should be towards contrition.
SMH article on Yasmin Abdel-Magied's infamous Anzac Day tweet

Be our guest: opening up the conversation

For this episode, Megan and Michael invite Daniel Reynaud, Associate Professor of History at Avondale College of Higher Education. David wrote Anzac Spirituality: The first AIF soldiers speak. Reynaud is also working on a follow-up book, tracing individual Anzac stories and their journeys of faith through the war.

Daniel told Megan and Michael that God is big part of the Anzac story: "an unrecognised part". Daniel says that in his research for the book he was "shocked" at how often Anzac soldiers spoke about their faith in letters and diaries.

Mentioned in this segment:

Anzac Spirituality: The first AIF soldiers speak by Daniel Reynaud
Captains of the Soul: A history of Australian army chaplains by Michael Gladwin
Gallipoli, 2015 mini-series

Marg and Dave: reviews from two people obsessed by stories but not always the same one

Megan and Michael dissect four war 'conflicted' songs:

The Band Played Waltzing Matilda – Eric Bogle (1972) WW1
Khe Sanh – Cold Chisel (1978) Vietnam
I was only 19 – Redgum (1983) Vietnam
Bodies – Wafia (2017) – modern Syria

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Notes on episode 14:

Live and in person, it's 'With All Due Respect!' At least, it was last night when Megan and Michael recorded their first live episode at the invitation of PEACEtalks, an initiative of Paddington Anglican Church in Sydney.

And... how handy that the federal election was called for the day of our live podcast, all about ... the election!

For arguments sake: where we take a debate, cut out the party politics and try to talk it out

Megan kicked off with a quote from Franklin D Roosevelt's inaugural address as President of the United States in 1933:

“The only thing we have to fear is fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. In every dark hour of our national life a leadership of frankness and of vigor has met with that understanding and support of the people themselves which is essential to victory. And I am convinced that you will again give that support to leadership in these critical days."

Last year, Michael wrote an opinion piece for Eternity asking: What are we worrying about?In it, he writes:

“What we need is to become a non-anxious presence in our chronically anxious world. Christians of all people have reason to be non-anxious. We believe that God is sovereign, the mighty Rock who is a stronghold against every threat. We believe we have even our sins dealt with, so that we need not worry about them any more. We have the resources in our faith to be an island of peace in a world that seems to be constantly in turmoil.”

The two quotes set the scene for Megan and Michael's discussion of our current political landscape. So, should we be afraid of fear in politics and is it a valid tactic?

The pair offer examples of fear-driven politics, including Donald Trump in the United States, and more recently the actions of Senator Fraser Anning in Australia in the aftermath of the Christchurch shootings which tried to instill fear of Islam (by the way, confirming Megan's statistics: Muslims make up 2.6% - 604,200 people - of Australia's population, according to the 2016 census).

Megan and Michael chat about the role of emotion more generally in politics including anger, pointing to political actions like the climate change protests by school students. "One of our deep fears is being powerless and not heard," says Michael.

Moving beyond ourselves

Michael and Megan move on to talking about how to reach "across the aisle" and "speaking the language of the person you may be opposed to", which they feel is sadly lacking in today's political discourse.

They talk about what they believe the role of Christians should be in this political climate. "Of all people," says Megan, "Christians shouldn't be using [fear] ..."

And yet the pair can point to many occasions where fear is driving Christians and their political engagement, particularly when it comes to religious freedom.

Michael says he believes it's getting harder to be a Christian, but Megan says she just doesn't feel that in her personal experience and argues that it's the same people advocating for religious freedom who didn't want to give freedom to other people on issues like same-sex marriage.

Also mentioned in this segment:

Michael was on ABC's The Drum this week and Megan mentions that what he said about the Get Up! attack ad (around 53:00) by conservative group Advance Australia was relevant to their discussion on tribalism and looking at 'issues' rather than 'parties' or 'groups'.
Australian Conservatives QLD Senate candidate Lyle Shelton's campaign launch video.
Freedom for Faith, an organisation advocating for religious freedom

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