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Cara: In 2026, the GC Podcast is shifting to a new format with too miniseries released throughout the year rather than monthly episodes. This change is going to allow us to go deeper into meaningful conversations that support our shared journey of Kingdom Living. In the first half of the year, we’re excited to launch the series with Reverend Dr. Walter Kim, president of the National Association of Evangelicals, and the keynote speaker for the 2026 denominational celebration. In this series, Dr. Kim joins me to explore what it means to live as citizens of God’s kingdom in today’s world — faithful to Christ, formed in community, and engaged in mission. So, stay tuned for this rich and timely series.

[00:00:53] Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to this episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches. I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today we are concluding our miniseries on Kingdom Living with Reverend Dr. Walter Kim. We’re exploring what it means to live as citizens of God’s kingdom in today’s world. What does it look like to live faithfully in Christ, formed in community, and engaged in mission? So, Walter, thank you for joining us today,

[00:01:24] Walter: Cara, it’s always great to have these conversations with you.

[00:01:27] Cara: Thank you. So, for our final episode of this miniseries, we’re going to be exploring the transformational aspect of Kingdom Living. So, becoming more like Christ as we follow him, and allowing discipleship to change our priorities, values, lives as we’re continually formed into Jesus’ image. And so, I want to begin with, what does it mean to become more like Christ?

[00:01:52] Walter: Yeah, I think that’s obviously the central question for the Christian life — growing in Christ’s likeness, bearing the fruit of the Spirit that is reflected not only in Christ’s life, but the ongoing work of Christ. He said an extraordinary thing, that it’s better that I leave and the Spirit come, than I remain.

I mean, to me, it’s crazy, right? How, could that be? And yet, it is the case that Jesus, as always, lives up to his word, that his departure and the gift of the Spirit mean that the very presence of God has moved from a place. At one point, God’s Spirit descends another temple, and then Jesus said, destroy this temple in three days, I’ll raise it up again.

So, clearly the Spirit descended and resided in a special way and in Jesus as God the Son. And now God sent this forwarding address as Jesus returned to his heavenly abode. The forwarding address of the Spirit is, well, to us, the Church. And God’s Spirit now is moved from a place to the person of Jesus, to the people of God — the people of Jesus who reflect Christlikeness in our character, certainly reflect Christ’s likeness in our mission, reflect the character of Christ in the ways that we are salt and light in the world. And it’s in all these ways. It’s not just in personal transformation and character development — love, joy, peace, patience, the fruit of the Spirit.

[00:04:22] Cara: And I really appreciate that. I think that connects back to the earlier conversations we’ve had about it not being living a kingdom life and being a disciple of Jesus is not about just me, myself, and I. But it’s about how are we living in community relationally and also participating in his mission and what he’s doing, not just what we ourselves would choose to be about doing. What is he doing in the world? And so, it’s not just this individualistic pursuit, but it’s very collective.

And it’s very grounded in what is, he already doing? And coming back to I loved what you said. He’s doing so many things even beyond the scope of what we might be looking at in any particular moment. So, I think that’s a really helpful place for us to ground ourselves in. What does it mean to become Christlike? It’s not maybe as one dimensional as we might be tempted to regard it as.

[00:05:28] Walter: Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:05:28] Cara: And so, what when we think about that what might this transformational Kingdom Living ask of us personally, corporately as we are made more and more into his likeness.

[00:05:46] Walter: Yeah. So, you think about the mission of Jesus that he came into this world to proclaim good news, of course, but he proclaimed good news to the poor, right? Freedom for the prisoner, sight for the blind, release for the captives, the year of the Lord’s favor — this mission that he describes picks up on all the aspirations of the Old Testament but also the transformational work of the good news in the New Testament people of God.

And so, yes, it is this personal transformation, but it’s also, we have to ask question, is the community a better place because of the presence of the church? If the church, if you and your local community disappeared, would the church be missed? Because people would go and realize, wow, we didn’t realize just how much the church was instrumental in addressing education issues or in addressing issues of homelessness, but also in providing a place for youth to be. And equipping people to be good faith presence in all aspects of society. Whether it’s how you handle your work, the ways you go about your work in all the different places that God might have people in your church serving and working — that presence of Jesus and it being missed, I think, is a real test.

There have been different seasons in the life and vitality of the church in America and certainly globally, where it’s uncontestable that Jesus and Jesus’ people made a difference, that they were a powerful influence of education. Again, I think of the Sunday school movement and the way that as it was arising in the 1800s as a response to the Great Awakenings and the movement of God’s Spirit and individual transformations, people come from saving faith, but also in corporate transformation as communities were asking, what can we do to be a leavening influence in society?

This was an opportunity for the church to rise up and say, here are all these children working in factories, not getting an education. Why don’t we provide a Sunday school to teach children how to read, how to do math, how to get an education, basically get an education, and of course to teach the truth of who Jesus is.

But it was not just a narrowly defined understanding of what we are doing in Sunday school to build up a church internally or to make sure we have good Christian kids. But it really was this incredibly innovative, creative influence, and offering to society, I think at its best. The church empowered by the Spirit has that kind of creative redemptive influence internally in the shaping of its people, but externally in the transformation of communities.

And yeah, is the community, would the community miss your church’s presence? That’s a really compelling question to ask.

[00:09:36] Cara: Yes. I really like that as a reflective question. I think it helps us to come together and think about, are we living this within our community? Are we doing the things that transformation might ask of us beyond that kind of individualistic thinking about just ourselves and our little corner?

And even just thinking beyond the walls of the church or the already gathering church community. I think that’s a really helpful, and challenging, but also empowering question for us to ask ourselves. And I think that can open a lot of that opportunity, like, that you say, for creativity, even in that — what does that redemptive work look like for us to join into? Because it can look a lot of different ways. Absolutely.

And so, I’m thinking, like, when we think about things like that, like the Sunday school movement or asking ourselves that question about would our neighborhood, would our community miss us If we went away, when we think about becoming transformed or becoming something new in these different kind of creative senses or joining in that redemptive work, it often requires some kind of a change, right? Like transformation is experiencing a change and usually a very dramatic change. And we are usually more comfortable with what we’re familiar with and what we know. So, that can be one of the challenges with allowing ourselves to be transformed. And so, I’m wondering, can you speak a little bit to both the fears, but also the freedoms surrounding transformative change for us as a church?

[00:11:24] Walter: Yeah. Cara, that’s an interesting chicken and an egg challenge, right? In some ways, we need to be transformed first by the Spirit in order to be able to offer anything to the world of substance, of meaning, of truly a different way of living, and life, and a connection to God that speaks to the transcendent power of Jesus Christ. So, on the one hand, it seems like we need to be changed first. And yes, that there is truth to that before we can offer, we need to be transformed, be before we can offer transformation to others.

But in another sense, when we pray, Lord, I’m a little bit stuck in my faith. I’ve read these things and I want to grow. It’s very rarely the case that God’s response would be, “Oh, I had this latest book that you need to read off of the Christian top 10 sellers.” Now that’s a part of the process — of reading, an education.

But oftentimes the Lord throws us into a life-stretching situation that is beyond the transformation that we have experienced, that demands a deeper transformation. How many of us know that it’s when we got a really adverse health situation that all of a sudden, we found ourselves praying? Maybe you read a book on prayer and that really helped your prayer life, and you improved prayer. And again, those things are important. Educate, of course. But there’s nothing like being thrown into a situation where you are desperate because of your circumstances. A lost job, a health diagnosis, something’s going on with kids, a tragedy in your community, a shooting — you name it — natural disaster. These things have a way of expanding and exposing the limits of our faith so that we actually seek a deeper transformation.

So, in some ways it’s a chicken and an egg. Yes, of course, we need to be transformed before we offer transformation. But sometimes the transformation that we offer actually helps us to become transformed, sometimes by going into a community, a neighborhood that you rarely go to in your city. Sometimes it’s building a relationship across a social boundary that makes you uncomfortable. Sometimes it’s having your church try something in the neighborhood that it’s never done before, that actually makes you pray like crazy, search the Scriptures to see is this, really biblical way.

What, how. How can we grow and how can we offer something? That’s a moment in which, if we want to grow in our faith, even from a self-focused point of view, if you want to grow in your faith, putting yourself in these faith-stretching moments are absolutely transformational.

And so, I look at this as the virtuous cycle of Spirit-filled ministry. Yes, we need to be changed in order to offer some something to the world. But sometimes when we step into the world and are stretched beyond our boundaries, we become changed ourselves. What was the way that the disciples began to learn the worldwide mission of Jesus? They saw Jesus talking to a Samaritan woman. It completely stretched their boundaries, put them in a completely, incredibly uncomfortable place as they went back to the Samaritan village and interacted with the Samaritan villagers. That’s exactly, at times I think, the kind of places we need to go if we want to grow in our faith.

[00:15:31] Cara: Yeah. And, as you describe that, I think about even some, again, some of the themes we’ve been talking about, this transformation and Kingdom Living. It’s embodied, right? It’s an experiential thing.

And so, as we’re stepping out in the community, as we’re stepping out into living and discipleship in real time, that part of the process of being transformed is going out and living in the flesh and grappling with some of these things that we’re learning within relationships out in the world, in our communities and figuring out beyond maybe just concepts. What does that look like?

And I like even that example of the Samaritan woman, right? Like you can sit there and maybe read theologies or do bible studies for like weeks and weeks. But until you’re sitting across the table from somebody that you never thought to love that that’s only knowledge in your head. It’s not real. It’s not embodied. It’s not transformation.

And I think that, like, when knowledge becomes lived, that’s when we really step into that kind of area of transformation. And one of the ways I like to think about, too, when we step into those situations where it’s like we’re really stretched is, oh, I’ve hit the end of myself, right? This is very clearly beyond what I know, what I can handle, what I can understand. And so, like, I have to step into this, newness. Because there’s nowhere else. There’s nowhere else to go. And I think those are two ways that going out and living in community can be part of that transformation.

You find the end of yourself, and you find yourself in situations where like knowledge becomes live. And I like what you say too about the chicken and the egg, because I do think. sometimes. we get a little bit in our heads about, okay, we have to be transformed first. And then we can go out. And I think that stops us a little bit from going in and doing the things. But even neuroscience, right, tells us that sometimes it’s in doing the things that we become change. that our minds change. The renewing of the mind and sometimes in that physical embodied participation is, like, part of the process of becoming new.

[00:18:19] Walter: Yeah, absolutely. There is, yeah. I think about how much Jesus in his training of the 12, just threw his disciples out into situations. He sent them out two by two and told them only take your staff and your cloak and go and ask for lodging. These are, like, incredibly faith-stretching moments. And he sent them out before they were even fully able to understand who Jesus is and his full mission.

And so, there is a way in which, again, we perhaps need to trust that as we put people in faith-stretching moments they actually become more engaged as disciples. They learn to embody and live out, but they also learn the limits so that they come back and say I actually discovered, I don’t really know how to answer these questions.

Cara: Yeah.

Walter: I remember when I was working in campus ministry in early parts of my ministry, one of the things that we would do is we would go out with students and share our faith. And there was only so much training that you can do. You can give all the worksheets on how do you answer this question about the Bible, or did Jesus really rise from the dead? Or, what happens to those people who have never heard about Jesus? And you have all these kind of training opportunities, but there is nothing that can replace an actual conversation where you’re unfolding these lessons and then you realize, I remember reading about this, but I actually don’t remember what I read, or that’s a question I’ve never encountered before, or asked in a way that I gave an answer and it really wasn’t satisfactory. And you go back and you realize, I actually need to search the Scriptures even more deeply.

And so, once again, there are ways in which we need to be changed and sent out. There are ways in which, as we repeat and like an athlete make good habits, that we get this more deeply ingrained. But there are also ways in which when we go out to serve the Lord in a variety of faith-searching context, we actually learn our ignorance.

And we become incentivized to say, I really need a better answer. This answer I thought was a good answer. It was satisfactory to me, but actually, it’s not a very convincing answer to a lot of other people that I’m interacting with. I actually need to search the Scriptures some more. I need to find this resource. I need to pray more deeply. I need to fast because this thing is not going to happen unless I engage more deeply in the spiritual battle. There are all sorts of ways that I think we become aware of our need to grow when we’re in these situations.

And, of course, there’s an issue of wisdom here. You don’t want to throw people into situations that they’re going be overwhelmed and completely unprepared for, and you know that’s not responsible leadership. But on the other hand, there’s a little bit of life and courage that we need to have in just going and doing and trusting that the Lord is present and in that will grow us.

[00:21:59] Cara: Thank you. Yeah, that’s very helpful. And those are, I think meaningful insights for us and to challenge how we think about even, like, what does it look like to be disciples in community with one another and in our community? And so, I think as we start wrapping up this conversation. How do we cultivate these spaces and communities that welcome in this kind of transformation that you’ve been suggesting to us and describing for us?

[00:22:38] Walter: Yeah. I think we can take any given issue and find a way to turn that into an opportunity for a corporate, not just an individual, but for a corporate way of faith steps.

So, for instance, it might be a personal evangelism. What would it look like for a church to say together, all of us, whether it’s a hundred or a thousand people attending your church, all of us are going to think of three people and in our small groups or with someone else, we’re going to actually share the name of three people that we in this coming year are praying actively to have a conversation of faith about. And we’re going to name that and we’re going to pray together and hold each other accountable.

I think of a beautiful story that really hits home for me. We did this in our church when I was pastoring back in Boston. My wife and I were both serving as pastors, and we led something called the Lenten Discipleship Institute. So, during the season of Lent, we in invited the church to gather together to go through a specifically designed series of lessons on some aspect of discipleship. And that particular year it was on faith and evangelism and sharing our faith in a holistic way. One of the exercises was to do this very thing, name someone and in your small group share that name.

My wife selected her mom, and we had been praying and seeking to diligently share our faith with her mom for decades. And the Lent and Discipleship Institute gave her a chance to name this person publicly, to talk with a group of people who would have the commitment to be praying for one another during, specifically during this season of Lent.

And then out of the blue during Lent, her mom calls her. My wife’s mom calls her and says, I’ve been thinking, I’ve been thinking about Christianity. And she started asking all sorts of questions.

Cara: Wow.

Walter: Do you need to read the whole Bible before you become a Christian? I heard about this thing about tithing. And the only framework she had — this is what I mean, of sometimes you don’t even know how people think about the Gospel until you actually end these conversations. She thought that that was a membership fee. So, do I have to tithe that in order to become a Christian — it’s like a country club thing where you pay a membership fee and then you can join the club? Is giving to the church like that, a membership fee, so I can’t become a Christian until I become a member, and I can’t become a member until I pay this fee? Is that what you know, Christians are doing? Like, it would’ve never dawned on our mind that anyone would think of tithing as a membership fee, like a country club.

But if you grew up in a world where you don’t have any other frame of reference of what, where else do you join things? Country clubs, and you pay interest. All that is to say sometimes we can take a specific issue, name it, join together corporately, pray for one another, and to see what the Lord might do.

And you can take this on any issue: poverty alleviation, challenging with the whole issues of the homelessness, choosing to volunteer together, being involved with the public education system. What does it look like for us to provide backpacks for students?

Our church, we also sought to run the first science fair for a local public school.

Cara: Wow.

Walter: Because our church had a number of people in the world of science and technology, we partnered with this local public school who had never had a science fair. So, we said, you know what? What if we brought over, like, 50 of our people to run booths and experiments and everything from here’s the very program that Pixar uses to make animation and show that; had aerospace person talk about building the most optimized paper airplane and running experiments. It’s just an amazing opportunity to build relationships.

I would say you could just pick an issue and as a church take a step of faith and try something and see where the Lord might lead you.

[00:27:40] Cara: Thank you. That is, I think, a really beautiful insight and a great place for us to wrap up this series and to have an invitation and exhortation for us to live in a way that embodies the liveliness, the beauty, the mission-drivenness of the kingdom. So, I want to thank you so much, Walter, for joining us for these conversations and for sharing your insights and your life experience, and just your words of wisdom with us.

And so, as we wrap up, I would just ask, would you pray for us one last time and for our members and our community members and leaders and just everyone that our folks and listeners will come in contact with?

[00:28:32] Walter: Yeah.

Lord, we give you praise that the mission is yours and we get to participate in it; that you have created us to be renewed in Christ, made in his image, and sent on his mission; that you have moved your Spirit’s presence from a place to a person now to a people. And that even now your Spirit is working beyond this people and you’re inviting us to participate in that.

Thank you that we know how the story ends. We know that there will be a new heavens and a new earth, and every aspect of the cosmos will be redeemed, renewed for your purpose and your glory. And as we labor imperfectly, as we labor with hope and fits and starts, help us to trust that our labor is not in vain, and that it will find and bear its fruit in due time, and that above all things, the love of Jesus means that we can serve you with great confidence and courage and not a spirit of fear or timidity. And we pray all this in the name of Jesus. Amen.

[00:29:55] Cara: Amen.

So, as we wrap up this series, just a reminder for you all that Kingdom Living is participatory, it’s relational, missional, and transformational. And Jesus said, as the Father has sent me, I am sending you. As citizens of the kingdom and co-laborers with Christ, we’re sent into the world to reflect his light.

Kingdom living requires awareness of our calling and our context, seeing our neighbors’ vocation, and even our sufferings as places where Jesus reigns and sends us. Kingdom Living is not passive. It is a bold proclamation and a tangible demonstration. We not only speak of the reign of God, we show it. Our words align with our works. As image bearers, our relationships become a visible witness to the reality of the kingdom being ushered in. And so, till next time, folks, keep on living and sharing the Gospel.

Thanks for listening. We would love to hear from you. Email us at info@gci.org.

The post Kingdom Living (Part 4): Transformational w/ Walter Kim first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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In 2026, the GC Podcast is shifting to a new format with two miniseries released throughout the year rather than monthly episodes. This change is going to allow us to go deeper into meaningful conversations that support our shared journey of Kingdom Living.

In the first half of the year, we’re excited to launch the series with Reverend Dr. Walter Kim, president of the National Association of Evangelicals, and the keynote speaker for the 2026 Denominational Celebration. In this series, Dr. Kim joins me to explore what it means to live as citizens of God’s kingdom in today’s world, faithful to Christ, formed in community, and engaged in mission. So, stay tuned for this rich and timely series.

Cara: Hello folks, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to best ministry practices and your GCI context. I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today we are joined again by Reverend Dr. Walter Kim for our third mini episode of our miniseries on Kingdom Living.

Today we’re going to be exploring the missional nature of Kingdom Living. So, Walter, thank you so much for joining us again today.

[00:01:19] Walter: Oh, what a delight.

[00:01:22] Cara: For this missional episode, we’re going to be exploring this idea of seeing our neighbors and inviting them to follow. And developing this gospel fluency to demonstrate and proclaim the kingdom both in word and in deed.

And so, I want us to start off with what does it mean to be missional and what makes it essential to Kingdom Living?

[00:01:46] Walter: Yeah, this this notion of being missional is probably something that is really scary when we often think about how does it work out in my life that I am to proclaim Jesus to my neighbor? And sometimes the vision could be of uncomfortable conversations that we’re having while we’re telling people about their eternal destiny and having to break some really bad news only to worry if we’ve just ruined our friendship or ruined a family relationship.

And there is some measure of truth that to be missional means to have a proclamation of Jesus. And that proclamation does contain really bad news about the human state.

But when we think about the mission of God, when we think about what God is at work at in the world, his mission, yes, includes sending his Son to be the Savior of fallen humans.

But he also cares for the animals. He also has created the sun, moon, and stars. He is also holding the universe together. And even for those who don’t know Jesus as their personal Savior, he too has a love of nations and communities because they have been created in his image.

So, when I think about where we are in the missional episode, I really appreciate that there has been a progression here, relational, participatory, now missional, because I think we now have a bigger context for what we mean by missional. To be missional is to join God’s work, God’s mission in the cosmos that is incredibly and essentially relational.

And once we do it this way, once we understand it this way, then we begin to realize that this mission, while daunting at one level, is the most natural extension of just being a Christian, to bear the fruit of the Spirit, to seek in loving our neighbors, and even how we go about our jobs in the world. This is part of the mission.

Humans were created in order to care and tend the garden, like that was their mission, Adam and Eve. And so, when I think about our mission, it includes this much more expansive vision of participating and joining in all the things that God does that is highly relational, predicated on love, and of course includes the proclamation of Jesus as the Savior of the world. But it includes it. It not only includes it but includes many other things. And to make mission exclusively in this narrow way, a proclamation of salvation is actually to do injustice to mission. It’s not really the full mission of God.

[00:05:29] Cara: Yeah, I think that gives us a lot to chew on, and this, an invitation to expand our understanding of what the mission of God is and what it means to be missional and to participate in that. Yeah, that gives us a lot. I think that typically when we do think about being missional — I think a lot about my experiences — it has been specific to this idea of just or maybe limited to the act of sharing a gospel-kind of presentation or proclamation and not really expansive of these other elements that you’ve shared.

And I’m just wondering: can you speak a little bit more as to what it looks like to expand our vision of our understanding of what God’s mission is and what it looks like for us to consider all of these other aspects of his mission when we think about being missional?

[00:06:57] Walter: Yeah, so I think about the book of Isaiah. So much of how the New Testament understands the good news of Jesus Christ is through the understanding that was set up in Isaiah for which Jesus was the fulfillment.

And I think of passages like Isaiah 52:7 on “how beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news.” All right. You would think this is about proclamation of Jesus Christ the Savior for the forgiveness of our sins. That is in there. I want to be very clear. I really do believe Jesus is the Lamb of God, the Savior of the world. We need him for forgiveness of sins and our eternal destiny rests on those types of decisions.

But if that’s all the gospel was about, you would expect Isaiah to say it this way, “How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news” of the forgiveness offered to us through a coming Savior.

But what does the passage actually say?

How beautiful in the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who says to Zion, your God reigns. Listen, your watchmen lift up your voices together. They shout for joy. When the Lord returns to Zion, they will see it with their own eyes and burst into songs of joy together, you ruins of Jerusalem. For the Lord has comforted his people. He has redeemed Jerusalem. The Lord will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations and all the ends of the earth will see it, the salvation of our God. [Isaiah 52:7–10]

So, this good news was to bring hope to a people who, as prophesied here, would be coming out of exile, whose city was ruined. So, the good news would be helping to put back a city, put back the fabrics of society. Something that watchmen waiting would long to see. Elsewhere in Isaiah describes it, that God will one day restore the temple and all nations will be drawn to it, and swords will be turned into plow shares and nation will not war against nation.

Like, this is the good news of Jesus transforming all things. And it’s a participation in that good news. I think of Luke 4 and Jesus introducing himself to the world in Nazareth and cites Isaiah 61: the Spirit of God, the Lord has anointed me to proclaim good news.

And again, if we reduce good news narrowly just to the forgiveness of sins, then we would expect Jesus to say this because this is his inaugural address, like he’s introducing himself to the world in this section of the Gospel of Luke. So, you would want to get it right. And in quoting Isaiah, he makes it clear that the gospel includes the forgiveness of sins.

But it goes so much beyond that. Proclaim good news to the poor, freedom for the oppressed, sight for the blind. Liberty for the oppressed. Freedom for the prisoner earlier, and then liberty for the oppressed, the year of the Lord’s favor.

And the quotation, the year of the Lord’s favor, refers back to the practice of jubilee, the Lord’s favor in the release of slaves, in the restoration of lands. So, like, this is a gospel that’s huge!

To be a part of the mission of God is to be a part of all of this. It includes proclamation, but it involves so much more. And when the church has done this, it has actually made the proclamation so much more compelling.

Why did early people, why did people become Christians in the early centuries? It’s because of their witness. The gospel often didn’t make sense to people because a proclamation, first of all, of one God was an unusual thing in the Roman Empire.

And that one God would be manifest through Jesus who won a victory through his death on the cross of crucifixion. This is only for criminals. It was foolishness to the Greek. It was a shame to the Jews. This is not a market-tested message. This is not something that anyone that works in marketing would ever conceive. It had all sorts of built-in obstacles, built-in guarantees for failure.

Why did it succeed? Because Christians met the widow, the orphan, the poor. They lived such transformational lives that it made the gospel not just plausible, it made it utterly compelling. And so, the proclamation of Jesus in Word was made not just plausible, but compelling by the demonstration of the gospel in deeds.

And the two, in the best moments of the church’s life, have always come together, because the gospel has always held things together. Jesus holds all of this together.

[00:12:42] Cara: Yes. And I think that you mentioned of, Jesus making all things new and I think about what does that mean when we talk about Kingdom Living?

And this reality of Jesus making all things new. It’s the living into and out of that and not just this proclamation of the forgiveness of sins, right? So, we’re reflecting what life in the kingdom is like, what life is like when all things are made new. And so, we see this kind of bigger picture that you’re talking about of this jubilee of this newness of things, that when they’re transformed as they’re brought into this redemption and brought into the beauty of how they’ve always been created to be.

And so, yeah, I think that then connects to what you’re saying about word and deed, that we’re not just talking about what the kingdom is, but we’re actually living these moments of the kingdom, these pieces of the kingdom right here and right now. And I know we use this phrase a lot, but “now, but not yet.” But we’re still … those deeds are reflecting what the kingdom is like in these maybe short and fragmented moments. But I think that’s, like you said, compelling, a really compelling thing when those words and deeds come together, because we’re not just saying, hey, this far off kingdom, yada yada, but it’s like this far off kingdom that for the last 20 minutes we experienced a little bit of a taste of. And that’s just a taste. And it was good. It was good.

[00:14:49] Walter: Yeah.

[00:14:52] Cara: Yeah.

[00:14:52] Walter: Cara, I want to swing back to something that we talked about in the last episode about consumerism.

[00:14:58] Cara: Yes.

[00:15:01] Walter: If we have a reduced gospel, a gospel that simply is about the forgiveness of sins, and again, hear me really clearly: forgiveness of sins is non-negotiable; that is a part of the gospel.

But my concern is that it feeds into the consumerist vision of the Christian life. The gospel is about meeting my need for the forgiveness of sins. So, once my sins are forgiven, I’m good. Why would I need anything else? Like, I have what I need. And so, I can move on.

So, a gospel that ironically focuses so much on the forgiveness of sins can oftentimes just leave people in their sins. In other words, it’s an impoverished vision of all that is meant by the good news of Jesus Christ. The proclamation of peace is a proclamation of personal wholeness, of social wholeness, of communal wholeness, of cosmic wholeness. It’s the whole shebang. It’s the kind of thing that would give hope to an exiled, broken people, that God could put back a city.

Like, cities require infrastructure. They require people getting together. They require all sorts of social work and vocations. If we have a gospel that stops with forgiveness of sins, then we have a gospel that I think will feed into consumerist mentalities.

No wonder we would have a hard time to convince people. Oh, you’ve been forgiven your sins. Now you have to do these other things. Wait a second, that’s still feels like a bait and switch to me. I thought the gospel is about the forgiveness of sins.

What isn’t a bait and switch is if you are given a vision of the gospel that in the forgiveness of sins, you now are invited into a family. And that family comes with all sorts of joys, but also responsibilities. And you’ve been given a new mission and vocation and that comes with all sorts of joys: an overwhelming joy that even any challenges in this world will pale, will just feel like a momentary light affliction, compared to this eternal weight of glory. If that’s the case, then I think we are giving people, right from their birth, the DNA for their growth.

So, do we have a gospel that gives people in their birth DNA, all that is necessary for their growth DNA? And I would say this is where it becomes essential that we have a robust and full vision of the mission of God.

To be missional is an invitation to the breadth and beauty of all that God would have for us to understand in the good news of Jesus Christ. And that means that in the proclamation in word and deed, in the demonstration of the gospel, in the breadth of all the ways that the Church is at service, this is not just to convince people to accept Jesus.

It’s not just like apologetic. It’s not just a bait and switch. This is what they are actually accepting. You’re accepting not just the forgiveness of sins, you’re accepting the entrance into new life, new family, new vocation, new purpose. It’s an entry into all of this. And if that’s the case, then it makes sense to me that Jesus would say, consider the cost. Consider the cost.

Not many will find a narrow way. That doesn’t make sense. If it’s just about a consumerist, you get the forgiveness of your sins. Who wouldn’t want that, right? That’s a broad way.

But the way that requires a crucifixion, not just a crucifixion of Jesus, but you have to take up your own cross and follow him. Oh whoa. Wait a second. I didn’t sign up for that. I just signed up for the forgiveness of my sins so that I could get to heaven.

And I’m speaking a little bit of a caricature, but enough of truth, I think, in this, that we have to ask the question, are we consumerists in the church because we have been feeding them with a consumerist gospel.

[00:19:49] Cara: Yeah. And I think that’s a really helpful question for us to wrestle with. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think about you saying what … this idea of why Jesus invites us to count the cost and all of the different dimensions of what we’re being invited into. Not just the forgiveness of sins, but being invited into a new family, a new life, a new way of being and moving through the world.

And so, I’m wondering two different pieces here. What does it mean to see and invite our neighbors? And then, who are — this kind of age-old question, right— who are our neighbors?

[00:20:43] Walter: Yeah. This is where the church unleashed into the neighborhoods becomes essential. I think we need to have more church members on school boards, volunteering not simply inside the walls of the church or at a ministry of the church, but volunteering in community events because it’s in that normal way of life that Christians are showing up that all of a sudden provides an opportunity for witness.

And not witness from the outside. You’re not witnessing throwing gospel grenades into people’s lives. You’re witnessing with people who are just living life together.

I think of Katrina, for instance. There was after the hurricane Katrina, and New Orleans and other cities were being put together. I know in a number of campus ministries, having worked in campus ministry before, Christians were using their spring breaks and other opportunities to go down to help rebuild the city.

And there were non-Christian students who were eager to join as well because they didn’t have a volunteer structure in ways that Christians had. Like, we have the Salvation Army. We have all sorts of ministries that are created to do this kind of work. So, for Christians to be able to volunteer, that’s like second nature.

We spend our spring breaks and summers and holidays volunteering in this way. Churches know how to do this. And so, some of these non-Christian students were realizing they didn’t have what Christians had, but they wanted to do some good in the world. And so, there were a number of campus ministries that said, you know what, we’re going to let these non-Christians come with us and join our teams as partners.

Of course, they would have to attend the morning devotionals. But there was a recognition that we’re just going to do this together and we’re going to join together. That became some of the most powerful evangelistic moments because this was being done in partnership, participatory, even with non-Christians.

These non-Christians weren’t recipients of ministry. They were joined together in doing stuff. And it’s in sharing that life where, up close, non-Christian students were able to see, wow! So, when you read the Bible and when you pray, this is what you’re praying about, you’re praying for the rebuilding of cities, you’re sharing personal prayer requests that are so vulnerable. I’ve never done this with anyone else. My friends?

How else are non-Christians going to see a compelling vision of life if they’re not exposed in some of these intimate ways, which we want them to come into the hostile territory of the four walls of the church in order to begin to experience that.

And of course we should still invite people to church. Absolutely. But I think there are some really creative ways that we could be sending out Christians two by two to be a part of civic life in our communities. And in that context, partnering with people, just rubbing shoulders with people to demonstrate that there is something really compelling in how Christians navigate this world. And maybe even to do so in a manner that demonstrates what Christian life could look like outside the walls of the church.

There was a refugee community in Boston when I was a pastor in Boston. And one of the things that we did with a number of these refugees was host soccer events where we would just play soccer together. And again, that becomes a very compelling thing to just share life together.

And in the course of sharing life, questions get raised, but they get raised in the most natural forms of living: playing soccer, sitting at a picnic, chasing your kids. This is just natural ways of life where you hear each other’s stories and share the story of Jesus.

[00:25:20] Cara: Yeah. I really appreciate that, what you shared about participating in church life being let’s be neighbors to one another and be active neighbors to one another. And that’s the context in which then we get to see and share and invite rather than only having a unidirectional way of inviting neighbors into the four walls of the church, but we’re going to actually live life with one another.

And I really love your example of also serving with and alongside one another, not just this kind of, a posture of, I have something you don’t, let me make you the recipient of my volunteering or a charity or whatever, but let’s do it together and then you can experience what this Christian community and living is all about.

And then, as you experience that, maybe there is something transformative, something compelling about that, that you experience, that you want to ask more questions about, and then that kind of naturally grows from there. And so, that makes me think of, you join the rhythms of your neighborhood or you build rhythms of doing things alongside one another, whatever that looks like.

And so, I’m thinking about what it means for us to develop these missional practices, these missional ways of being and moving through the world. What are some of those rhythms that we might be able to develop to support the growth of our missional way of being?

[00:27:14] Walter: I think storytelling is very powerful, and just to give a very practical to-do, think about the testimonies that we highlight in our church services. Oftentimes, what are the ministry moments? What are the mission moments?

We’re often highlighting personal victory, like, how I overcame an addiction or whatever, or we’re highlighting a ministry like this is how small groups changed my life. You should get involved. This is how being part of a youth group has changed my life. You should send your kid to youth group. And even things that we highlight of mission, we’re often highlighting in ways of this is what our church is doing out there in the community for the community.

That’s not quite the same as having people share life and talk about, this is what I’m doing as I’m serving on our parent teacher association in the local school. This is what I’m doing just as I’m volunteering at the fire station. This is what I’m doing, not in my involvement in a church ministry. But this is what I’m doing in my involvement in the Rotary Club or some other.

That kind of storytelling begins to normalize and dignify the mission of the church of everyday Christians, and for pastors preaching, what are your sermon illustrations? What are the things that you highlight as really compelling pictures of the nature of the good news of Jesus Christ?

Are we telling stories of what teachers are doing or what a sanitation worker might be doing in following Jesus in caring for or talking to others? I think these become really incredible opportunities to begin to normalize and dignify what we mean by mission. So, that’s the question I would ask. In the stories that you’re telling, in the things that you’re advertising, in the volunteer service that you’re highlighting, what are you normalizing and dignifying as the mission of God in this world?

I would love for it for people to be praying. Yes, pray for your missionaries. Pray for your small groups. Pray for your children’s ministry. Pray for all the things that we do pray for, but spend time praying for people who are volunteering, again, at schools. Pray for first responders and for those who are just part of life in caring for our communities. Like, what we pray for, what we tell stories about, what we illustrate in our sermons, they normalize and dignify something. And let’s be intentional about what we’re normalizing and dignifying.

[00:30:21] Cara: Thank you. That’s really helpful and thoughtful. And so, I invite listeners to really just sit with the insights that Walter has shared with us this episode, and really invite you to, with one another, allow yourself to expand your concept, your vision of mission, your understanding of what it means to participate in mission, to live into mission, and what that means and how that reflects Kingdom Living.

So, as we close out this episode, Walter, if you would pray for our people, for our neighbors, for our growth in being neighborly and being missional in our living, I would really appreciate that.

[00:31:17] Walter: Yeah. Let’s pray.

God of creation, you who set in motion, spoke the universe into existence, you who continue your work in holding all things together, you who sent your Son, the firstborn of creation and the firstborn of the church, you who will one day in the already and not yet that we’ve been talking about, one day will create a new heavens and a new earth, we want to join you in this mission. We want to join you in the fullness of the gospel that brings us personal peace and the forgiveness of our sins, relational peace in the invitation to a new family, missional life that includes meaningful vocation and service. And even in a world that will not all receive Jesus, we recognize that you are at work seeking to bless. And so, we pray to be a part of that for the glory of Jesus Christ. And in his name, we pray. Amen.

[00:32:29] Cara: Amen. Thank you, folks, and until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel. Thanks for listening. We would love to hear from you. Email us@infoatgci.org and we hope to see you at the 2026 denominational celebration in Texas from July 23–26, 2026. Visit us at gci.org/dc26 for more information and to register.

The post Kingdom Living (Part 3): Missional w/ Walter Kim first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Kingdom Living (Part 2): Participatory w/ Walter Kim

Cara: In 2026, the GC podcast is shifting to a new format with two miniseries released throughout the year rather than monthly episodes. This change is going to allow us to go deeper into meaningful conversations that support our shared journey of Kingdom Living. In the first half of the year, we’re excited to launch the series with Reverend Dr. Walter Kim, president of the National Association of Evangelicals, and the keynote speaker for the 2026 denominational celebration. In this series, Dr. Kim joins me to explore what it means to live as citizens of God’s kingdom in today’s world, faithful to Christ, formed in community, and engaged in mission. So, stay tuned for this rich and timely series.

Hello folks, and welcome to GC Podcast. I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and this podcast is dedicated to best ministry practices in the context of GCI churches. This is the second episode of our miniseries on Kingdom Living, and joining us once again is Reverend Dr. Walter Kim. Walter, thank you so much for joining us for the second part of this miniseries.

[00:01:17] Walter: Glad to be here.

[00:01:19] Cara: And I am very eager to jump into this next episode. We’re going to be exploring the element of kingdom living that is, that we could describe as participatory, of joining Jesus in what he’s doing and stepping into active discipleship by recognizing and joining in his ongoing work. And so, I just want to start us off with this conversation with what does it even mean to join Jesus and what he’s doing, and what ongoing work are we invited to participate in?

[00:01:55] Walter: Yeah. I think one of the incredibly important lessons that we need to be keeping in mind is that it’s not my ministry for Jesus. It’s Jesus’ ministry that I join.

[00:02:08] Cara: Yes.

[00:02:09] Walter: And that God’s purposes extend beyond that, beyond us, and even beyond the church. I think God has and is and continues to be at work. And I think the opening prayer in Colossians that all things hold together in him, in Jesus. And peppered throughout, we get these throughout the Scripture, we get these insights that God’s constantly at work. I think of Melchizedek, that strange figure in Genesis, right? He shows up out of nowhere. He blesses Abraham. And then the book of Hebrews picks up on that story and says that Melchizedek was a better, higher priesthood than even Aaron’s, that Jesus is a high priest in the order of Melchizedek. Who is this Melchizedek? I’m like, where did he come from? Where did he go after he departs the scene? Like we don’t know this story, but the lesson for me out of this is that while we have a lot told to us about Abraham, about the work of God’s people, about the church, we get these snapshots that God is actually at work all over the place beyond our field of vision.

And Melchizedek comes in just for a moment into our field of vision representing God’s work in this world, and then he goes out doing who knows what, but whatever it is that he did was so important that God later in Hebrews would guide the author of Hebrews to say Jesus was a high priest of the order of Melchizedek. It was like that important. To me the huge lesson about that is God is on the move doing things all over — not just the world, the cosmos — holding every atom and molecule together, and we get to join him in what he is doing in the cosmos. And that’s extraordinary. These snapshots that we get, I think are a humbling reminder.

Yeah. But also an inspiring reminder. Humbling in the sense that who am I that I get to participate in this cosmic ministry, that even right now in the heavenly realms that we don’t see there is a spiritual battle. Who am I to be a part of something so big? It’s humbling.

But it’s also inspiring that no matter how menial it feels, how mundane it feels that what you are doing in ministry, writing that email, filling out that form, calling back that person, visiting your neighbor with the casserole, preparing for your small, no matter how mundane it feels, you are actually involved in a cosmic ministry and you get a chance to find yourself in that big picture. It is both humbling and inspiring to recognize that we participate in what God is doing.

[00:05:37] Cara: Yes. Thank you. And, yeah, I agree. Humbling and inspiring. And I’d never thought about having that, I guess learning from Melchizedek. And I really like that idea of like outside of our window of vision that God’s doing things. I think that is a really cool way to think about that because God’s not limited by what we see.

And I think sometimes when we think about participating in his ministry, first off what you first mentioned is sometimes we think it’s our ministry, and so that’s quite limiting, right? But then even beyond that, I think we often limit what we think God’s doing or his ongoing work to what we can see, what we’re able to discern. But he’s doing all kinds of things all over the place, a cosmic ministry. I really love that. And that it’s just incredible to think about that.

And one of the things I personally love is that means sometimes we see him in places and doing things that we wouldn’t expect. And I think that, yeah, it is just incredible to think about how vast his ongoing work is, and what it means, and how humbling and inspiring it is that we get to be invited into a small piece of that. And that it’s not our piece. It’s not something that our objectives or what we want to see happen, but that it’s we’re being invited into what he’s doing. So, yes. Thank you for that.

[00:07:34] Walter: Yeah.

[00:07:35] Cara: Appreciate that. And I’m wondering, because you touched on the idea that it’s not our ministry and that it’s a humbling and inspiring experience even when things feel mundane, when we look at ministry as participation.

And so, I’m wondering a little bit more, what difference does participatory discipleship make for us as disciples, as the church for our neighbors. What difference does it make when we look at discipleship as participation instead of maybe other kind of ways to approach it or think about it?

[00:08:17] Walter: Yeah. This language or participation, I love it because it does several things. One, it reminds us that ministry is active. The word participate requires activity. You are doing something together. And again, as in our last episode, we referred to Jesus sending out folks and pairs and looking for our Timothys, looking for encouragers.

This notion of participatory ministry is this notion that we are called to do things together as the party of Christ and we need the entire body of Christ to represent the body of Christ, right? If we’re missing a part, a hand or a foot or some aspect, then the world is missing a chance to see something about who Jesus is that requires a full participation.

So, we have a particular calling. We might be keenly interested in justice or evangelism or service or teaching or a hospitality or care for children or care for elder, and we might do all of that really well. But that’s only a part of who Jesus is.

If we want people to have a full view of who Jesus is, then we need to have a participatory ministry that says I want to be as faithful and as excellent to what aspect of Jesus that, and kingdom life that, I am called to portray to you. But if you are left with the impression that’s the only thing God cares about, or that’s the only thing that God’s doing in this world, then you’re going to actually have a very impoverished view of who God is.

So that’s the second thing. Not only is participatory ministry action oriented. Participatory ministry is comprehensive. It is more comprehensive because it’s a constant reminder that if our goal is not just to give people a great view of what we do for Jesus, but a great view at what Jesus is seeking to do in the world, then by definition we need to be a part of something that points to other types of work and ministry. Otherwise, they are not going to get a full picture of the good news of Jesus, much less a full picture of Jesus himself.

The last thing about participatory ministry is it’s super humbling when you have to negotiate how you will accomplish something. And that’s deeply, oftentimes challenging, because you’re going to have to compromise. You’re going to have to work with someone else’s plan. You’re going have to have the curiosity, humility to learn from others, maybe even have your own ideas nixed. And so, it’s character forming. There’s in participatory ministry, there’s something deeply character forming as well.

So, I love this language that you’re using here in terms of kingdom ministry, kingdom life calling as participatory because it reminds us, it’s action oriented. It invites us to have people look at a bigger picture. And it’s also character forming because we have to humbly work with someone else.

[00:12:03] Cara: Yes. Thank you. And I think for me, one of the things that really jumps out is this idea that it requires us to look at the more comprehensive kind of picture of how we’re all participating in different ways and how that reflects that more robust image of what God’s doing and who he is.

And it’s not just a look at this one way of participation, but look at all these body parts that are participating together in this one work of Christ. I really appreciate that aspect of what you shared as well, because it can be easy, right, to get into our little niche and be like this is ministry. This is the most important aspect.

But if we’re talking about participation, it’s what are all of the ways that God’s calling us to participate in the ongoing work that he’s doing that might be outside of our window of vision. And when you are focused on a certain aspect of ministry that God has called you into that doesn’t mean that he’s not working in other spaces and places. Just because we have tunnel vision doesn’t mean that’s the only place that he is. So yeah, I think there’s a lot of wisdom in that. I really appreciate that.

And that aspect of it being active, I’m wondering what are some of the practices that can help us cultivate that active participation in kingdom living?

[00:13:50] Walter: I think we sometimes overestimate what our training can do and underestimate what people’s learning process can be if they just are sent out to try something.

I think about evangelism. I remember just early on, after I became a Christian, I had this kind of pretty radical transformation in high school. I became a Christian and then went away to this retreat and really had this outpouring of God’s Spirit upon my life. It was transformative — went into this retreat one way left, completely transformed. But I had no category for what just happened to me, and I didn’t really have any training.

But I remember coming back from this retreat, I was so overwhelmed by the joy of discovering Jesus that I was playing tennis with my tennis partner before the school year was starting. And just in the middle of our practice session, I stopped. I put down my racket and went to the other side of court and just listen, I need to tell you something about what just happened to my life.

And I realized looking back now, like I’m sure the gospel presentation that I made no sense and probably had a good bit of heresy thrown in because I had no training. I had a lot of passion. And what I got from that is, I’m so glad that I just had just did it rather than just say I can’t do this unless I read a certain number of books or get a certain number of training or …. No, hear me clearly training, reading, like all that’s good. We should have training programs on how to share our faith just as an example in this.

But sometimes we overestimate that if we just train people they’ll go do that and underestimate the passion of just experience. And what I experienced there actually led me to a journey of saying maybe I actually should read something to help me explain this better.

But I think it was important that it often happened in that way. And again, Jesus does that. He like calls people to himself and sends them out and does all sorts of stuff, and then he debriefs them and then says, okay, let me explain what this really is about and it’s this dance of experience and explanation that is often really important about participation.

Again. Yes. Get training, read books, go to seminars. But in the end, training will never replace passion, never replace experience, never replace the connection that you would get with someone as you’re trying to share your faith or trying to serve. And you’re going to realize, gosh, I need some help in this.

And then you go get the help. You’re, like, going to be so much more motivated. And this is where I, again, this idea of go do stuff together that we talked about last time.

Here’s a great opportunity. You, as a leader might be more trained than the person you’re bringing. One of the best ways to convince a person that they need training is to bring them with you and expose them to a situation that is so faith stretching that they begin to realize, the person begins to realize, I’m not really equipped for this.

But they wouldn’t know this unless they experienced something. And so, it’s a wonderful occasion for us to say, can we put ourselves in faith stretching moments to make us realize that we actually need more instruction rather than instruct people and hope that they will get inspired by that instruction to go do the thing.

Sometimes it’s better. Maybe most times it’s better because frankly, this is how children grow up. They experience something and then the parents help explain what just happened. I think discipleship often is like that. We go experience something and then we make sense of it through instruction.

[00:18:33] Cara: Yeah, it’s like participation can be our learning ground as disciples. And I think that that feels really profound because I think often we can be in context that are very like cognitive, that we have to wait until we understand things the right way or that we have to wait till we have all the right answers before we can do something that’s that overestimating of training I think that you speak about, and I think that at least in some of my experience, that part of that is this fear of oh, I will mess up. I have to wait until I know everything.

But maybe it’s okay to learn along the way. Maybe that’s part of the human experience. Maybe that is what we see in biblical accounts, and maybe there is something humbling about that as well, because if we rely only on our own understanding and expertise, maybe then it becomes about what we know and what we can understand, not about what we’re learning from one another and from God in the midst of this participation. So yeah, I think participation as that learning grounds is, that’s profound.

[00:20:07] Walter: When kids learn to walk — when my kids were learning to walk — I have two kids — when they were learning to walk, I didn’t look at them and as they were wobbling across the room, taking really fitful steps, falling down, I didn’t look at them and say, oh my goodness, I’m so embarrassed of you. Like, why can’t you get this better?

I celebrated it. And I think we need to recover something of this. You’re always going to be an amateur. You’re always going to be a toddler in the kingdom of God. In ministry, there’s nothing more humbling than the recognition that you’re never going to become the perfect expert, flawless in your performance the moment you get there. Oh my. May the Lord may humble you by putting you in a new faith stretching environment.

So much of this is the recognition that we need the grace of God. We are toddlers all learning to walk. We’re going to fall and that’s okay. We’re going to stumble. We’re not going have all the answers. And this is where we need to recognize this imagery that we are children of God. We are children of God. He calls us his children.

I think there’s something really important about accepting that. Again, I’m not encouraging us to have immature character and immature relationships, but I am encouraging us to say let’s put ourselves in situations where it’s okay to stumble because how else are you going learn how to walk?

I’m so glad my kids did not wait to learn how to walk until they went through a 10-week training program on walking. They just tried to walk. And in ministry again, yes, let’s train. But there’s no replacement for actually just trying stuff and then cheering one another on with the grace of being able to say, it’s okay to fail. Let’s, learn together.

[00:22:23] Cara: Yeah, absolutely. Another thing that comes to mind when I think about this, like, participatory element of kingdom living is this, maybe, I don’t know what word I want to use for it, but this way of maybe experiencing or approaching church community of faith expression, whatever you want to, word do you want to put to it that’s maybe a little bit more passive? Or sometimes we hear the word like consumption, right? Maybe very individualistic where you just show up to a very well put together church service and then you just you show up for that hour and a half and then you go home and then you do it again the next week. And that’s kind of it. That’s what your participation in discipleship looks like.

And so, I think about that in contrast to this kind of dynamic participation, skinning your knees as you’re learning and you’re growing with one another and with God that we’ve been talking about.

So, I’m, curious what thoughts you might have for us as we maybe encounter in our communities or even sometimes battle within ourselves this maybe temptation to have this like consumptive kind of faith where we just want to come take stuff and then go home and let it be about just like, all right, I’m going to consume this, and then that’s it, and then come back and consume some more, and then that’s it.

[00:24:04] Walter: Yeah. We have become a culture in which consumption is a default way of living. And convenience, I would add that, right? It’s not just consumption. It’s consumption combined with convenience that leads to a sense of passivity, right? Now we can consume, but we can consume at a click of the mouse and we can purchase things.

We don’t even have to go into our car and go to that thing called the mall and walk up and down different shops to find the sale that we are looking for. We don’t need to cut coupons. So even in our consumption, we have reduced it to clickable things, and even in the consumption of religious material, we don’t have to go to church, we can just go online. We don’t physically have to join. We could just be a part of a Facebook group. Again, I want to say there are ways in which these things can be used, so I’m not …

[00:25:10] Cara: Yes.

[00:25:10] Walter: … denigrating the fact that we can use technology really well. But I am saying that if we already live in a consumeristic culture, that’s our default setting that has now been coupled with a convenience culture. So, I have to consume, but I want that consumption now, the most convenient means possible, that for it to be the default setting of our discipleship is to be expected. If this is the bulk of our life, then why should we be surprised that we import this into how we think about our spiritual life, our life in the church?

And so, it’s an uphill battle. It’s a discipleship issue to get out of this consumerist mentality, this passive mentality. But once again there is this interesting moment that we’re in culturally, that even this consumerist notion is being challenged. Like it’s enough. Younger generations now have this interesting backlash to social media and a desire to perhaps be embodied. I was reading an article recently of how some students are responding to the banning of cell phones in their schools. And yeah. Okay. For the first several weeks it was like, oh, I can’t believe they’re banning these. But then students saying, thank you, and now I actually have to talk to people in the lunchroom. Now I am engaging with others around me. It’s like helping me see the world in a whole new way. Yes.

Cara: Yeah.

Walter: Yes. And there are ways that, in which I think within our churches, people might want this more than you realize. If they were invited to participate in something and actually experience something, not be preached at and told, oh, you should get out there, but just invited into experiencing something, I think that could be transformational.

There was a moment, I’ll give you a very tangible example as a younger Christian. I was invited — and I learned hospitality in a way that reading no book could ever do — to a dinner event hosted by someone at which there was, let’s say, someone from the other side of the tracks that was invited to that dinner, a person that struggled with homelessness. And I thought, wow, what am I experiencing here? I’m experiencing a vision of a of discipleship that is just a way of life in which this host is expressing hospitality to me personally, but actually making me engage in ways that I would not have in any other context in a conversation that humanized this person.

[00:28:24] Cara: Yeah.

[00:28:25] Walter: I could not look at someone who was homeless in the same way. That is participatory. That was an invitation. I wasn’t given a manual ahead of time. I wasn’t trained. I just was exposed. That exposure led to an experience. That experience led to a desire for equipping.

And, that’s where I would really encourage us to think about ways in which we can be inviting people to these types of experiences in our transformation. And, to think about not just lamenting consumerism, preaching against it, providing statistics, but providing an experience that makes non-consumerism so compelling. Why would I wish to live any other way than a way that’s disengaged?

[00:29:20] Cara: Yes. Thank you. I appreciate that. I appreciate all the insights that you’ve shared with us on our episode focusing on the participatory aspect of Kingdom Living. And as we prepare to close out our episode I want to invite you to pray for our church leaders and members and community members, neighbors as we seek to be transformed into more of a participatory people.

[00:29:51] Walter: Yes.

Lord Jesus, you said, go, and heavenly Father, you sent and Spirit you move people even now throughout the world to serve you in sacrificial ways, and you invite us not merely as individual followers of Jesus to service, but as communities, as churches, as small groups, as friends in Christ. And Lord, we want to heed your call to go, to make, and to be present in this world in the name of Jesus. Amen.

[00:30:42] Cara: Amen.

Thank you, folks, and until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel. Thanks for listening. We would love to hear from you. Email us@infoatgci.org. We hope to see you at the 2026 denominational celebration in Texas from July 23rd to July 26th, 2026. Visit us at gci.org/dc26 for more information and to register.

The post Kingdom Living (Part 2): Participatory w/ Walter Kim first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Kingdom Living (Part 1): Relational w/ Walter Kim

Cara: In 2026, the GC Podcast is shifting to a new format with two miniseries released throughout the year rather than monthly episodes. This change is going to allow us to go deeper into meaningful conversations that support our shared journey of kingdom living. In the first half of the year, we’re excited to launch the series with Reverend Dr. Walter Kim, president of the National Association of Evangelicals and the keynote speaker for the 2026 denominational celebration. In this series, Dr. Kim joins me to explore what it means to live as citizens of God’s kingdom in today’s world: faithful to Christ, formed in community, and engaged in mission. So, stay tuned for this rich and timely series.

Hello friends, and welcome to this episode of GC Podcast. GC Podcast is created to support the best ministry practices in your own GCI context. I’m Cara Garrity, your host. And today we are beginning our miniseries to explore kingdom living and its elements as participatory, relational, missional, and transformational.

And today to help us do that, we have Reverend Dr. Walter Kim with us. Walter Kim is president of the National Association of Evangelicals. He earned his PhD at Harvard. Was chaplain at Yale and has served in diverse pastoral ministries. He’s on the Board of World Relief, Christianity Today, and Salvation Army, USA, he’s often sought out for theological and cultural commentary on issues facing the church and society.

And so, Walter, we thank you so much for joining us today to explore this really meaningful theme that we have for 2026, Kingdom Living.

[00:01:57] Walter: Cara, it’s a delight to be on this podcast with you.

[00:02:01] Cara: Yes. And so, I’m really excited for this theme and to explore these different elements of what kingdom living can look like.

For this miniseries, we’re really exploring what it means to live as citizens of God’s kingdom in today’s world, and what does it look like to live faithfully in Christ, to be formed in community, and engaged in a mission.

And so, our first element that we’re going to dive into is relational. What does it mean for us to live relationally? And so, that’s where I want to start. What does it mean for kingdom living to be relational, Walter?

[00:02:43] Walter: Yeah. I mean, that’s a great question and it’s a great place to start because, in fact, this is where Scripture starts. God sought to be in relationship, because in his very being God is relational as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the triune God. Internally in the great mystery of God’s own being there is built-in relationship.

And even so, it is this deep desire of God to create other, to create humanity. And I love the fact that in the opening chapter of Genesis and the description of the creation of humans in the image of God, it was very clear that when God created humans, he had community in mind, because he didn’t just say, God created the individual in the image of God, it said God created humanity, male and female, in the image of God.

There’re all sorts of things and implications that we could draw from that. But one thing that I think is very essential is that this notion that we need others, that we are intended for community is built into creation itself, is built in what it means to be even human — that we need other.

And when we think about all the metaphors of the church: family, building.

We have this notion of not just individuals who have been saved into the kingdom. We have been saved into a family. We have been saved into a building where each brick has a role. And that itself I think, is deeply informative to how we think about at the foundation of creation, at the foundation of the recreation of God’s humanity in the church is essentially this deep commitment to relationship — relationship with God, relationship between humans.

And so, whatever kingdom living entails, whatever it means to be disciples, it’s not just a bunch of individuals following Jesus individually. We have been embedded in a community, in a relationship.

[00:05:07] Cara: Yes. And I love how you really start with, Scripture starts there, from creation, from the foundations, that relationship is there and even in whom God is.

So, at the end of the day, we can say there, there is really no version of kingdom living that isn’t relational. There has to be relationship. And life itself really is relational because it has been designed that way. I think that is really critical for us to be thinking about that and learning how do we live that out with one another.

And one of the things that we want to focus on and dive into in this aspect of relational kingdom living is the aspect of God’s calling and gifting to us and, how do we hear and discover and respond to his call in our lives. And so, I’m wondering what does it look like for calling and gifting to be discovered within relationship, both with God and with others?

[00:06:15] Walter: Yeah, I think so many cases, while it may be helpful to take a personality test or some vocational training, in the end, most of us, we experience a set of blessings and opportunities that help us discern what God’s call might be upon our lives.

It may be in a community where we’ve led a small group and we begin to discover, wow, other people are telling me that I’m really good at asking questions or I’m really good at listening to people. And all of a sudden you begin to have this growing sense of perhaps the Lord is calling me in this way.

Or maybe you’ve been able to lead some friends of yours to Christ, and you begin to have the community affirm that you have a knack for explaining Jesus and such winsome and compelling ways, or it could be a speaking gift that was given, or you just show up in hospitality.

Yeah. Okay. There are places for figuring out our personalities and taking tests and maybe even a spiritual gifts inventory, but by and large we often experience our way into seeing and understanding our call through the ways that we have lived it out in relationships, in community, and in fact, this is what we see in scriptures. We see God’s people saying, “Paul, Barnabas, we see something in you,” and in period of prayer and discernment that the leaders of the church in Antioch gather together and lay hands and send them out.

This happened in community as they were undoubtedly serving and living out their giftedness and having God’s people affirm it and then bless them and send them out. So, I think both our personal experience and, once again, Scripture gives us this convergence of affirmation that so much of the discovery and discernment of our call comes through trying and living and doing and having God’s people affirm and shape and redirect us.

[00:08:36] Cara: Yeah. And I really appreciate both those elements of what we’re experiencing, but also what others are speaking into our lives and what they’re noticing and discerning with us and the dynamics of that, that there’s this dynamic in relationship where it’s not just an equation of, well, X plus Y equals Z and so this is what my calling or spiritual gifting is.

But that’s something that happens within that community and relationship. And so, I wonder too, how then can our response to God’s calling and gifting, maybe once we’ve discerned it, once our community has affirmed it in us, maybe commissioned us in that, how can our response be lived out relationally?

[00:09:28] Walter: Yeah. So much of the Christian life is the realization that you’re always an amateur. So, one thing that I would put out — this is after decades of walking with the Lord and serving the Lord in a variety of context — is you never graduate beyond the common basic lesson that God loves me, that my identity is rooted in Christ and not in my performance. That it is always about dependence.

Of course, grow in wisdom, grow in expertise and skill. But as we do so, there is simultaneously the temptation as we grow in expertise to trust our expertise. And to lose that simple dependence upon the Lord.

And so there are a couple of things that I would once again put out there for us to consider and that is, as we serve the Lord, that we need to continue to put ourselves in context of constant feedback, of being able to receive the affirmations and the critiques of God’s people.

Good thing David had Nathan in his life, that even way into his kingship, Nathan was able to speak truth and confrontation to someone who began so incredibly well — slaying Goliath, delivering God’s people from the Philistines, being the model king that Jesus would be named son of David. And yet later, after all this success, he became arrogant and entitled and fell into sin. And it required someone to speak a word of truth.

So, we always need to put ourselves in a posture of dependence upon the Lord, of remembering and fostering our first love, of recognizing we might grow in expertise, but we never graduate beyond dependence, and that we always need people in our lives who will speak truth to us, who will guide us, who will encourage us. We need Nathans to challenge us. We need Barnabases to bless us and encourage us, and we need the body of Christ to constantly be working out with us our mutual calling.

I really think it’s important for us, particularly in such an individualized context and time where we’re always trying to figure out what is my calling. My calling has no real value apart from its communal impact. Each of us, according to Corinthians, have been given a gift for the common good. So, it’s not so much that we’re, “I need to be true to myself and true to my calling,” it is, “you need to be true to the community into which that calling gets exercised.”

And so that I, once again, I think is a profound challenge for us to always be working things out collaboratively in community, even if some of our gifting is one that often gets applied in a personal context. Like, you may be a counselor and you think, oh, it’s the personal wisdom that I might have.

But many, those in the counseling field, recognize they need those moments where they’re talking to colleagues and working out, “Give me some wisdom here. What can I be learning?” So, I would wish to affirm that we constantly need each other in the living out of our calling. This is not the individual saying, “I got my calling. I’m good. I’m just going to go do my thing for Jesus.” Your thing for Jesus comes in the context of community.

[00:13:40] Cara: There’s so much richness in what you just shared. I really appreciate that. A couple things that I want to pull out that really spoke to me: you can grow in expertise but not out of dependence. I think that that’s huge. What I want to get from that is we can’t exist and use our calling out of relationship in kind of any way, right? Because we don’t come out of dependence on God. And so, what does it mean to use our callings and our giftings outside of relationship with God? Is there even a reality in which that exists? Not really. But to be aware of that and to remember that I think is really incredible reminder.

And then I think also you’re speaking maybe to that temptation to live individually, that reminder that our giftings aren’t for us, at the end of the day, that we need to be living them out, using them in the context of community, because it’s not just well, like me in my little corner using my … what uses that. I think that’s a really timely and helpful reminder.

[00:15:02] Walter: Yeah. Cara, I think there are a couple of things. Just even your reflecting back just reaffirms to me the challenge that we often think and confront when we confront the issue of calling in our particular day and age, and one is this notion that our calling is primarily about our fulfillment.

I have this need to use gifts. I have this desire to be fulfilled in ministry, and you look at Scripture and you think, of course, God is concerned with your happiness and fulfillment, but that’s actually very, very much not how calling is described, right? Paul looks at his calling: go to 2 Corinthians.

Instead, 1 Corinthians and he has this laundry list of three occasions: I’ve been persecuted, I’ve been shipwrecked. There’s sleepless nights. I have the burden of the church constantly upon me. And one time I was stoned and left the city and went back into the city.

There wasn’t so much about, “I’m called to be apostle because it’s so deeply satisfying and I find meaning in this and fulfillment, and this is why I’m an apostle.” It’s almost, “I am, I’m an apostle, and I actually don’t know how humanly fulfilling it actually is, other than deeply fulfilling in knowing that I serve the purposes of God, deeply fulfilling that even in the sacrifice there is an exceedingly great weight of glory that awaits for me, that makes all the afflictions of this lifetime feel light and momentary, and the opportunity to enter into a deeper understanding of the love of God and the deep satisfaction of the community of God.”

It’s like when we sacrifice deeply for those in our church, in our communities, when we’ve walked long roads of suffering with someone with a debilitating illness. I’m just going to get really personal here. We cared for my brother most of his adult life, 30 years. He lived with us in our family or lived near to us. You had a variety of challenges. He passed away not too long ago and I often thought about in this period of reflection, “What was the point of that? All those years?”

The point of it was the gift of walking with someone. It’s probably not something that most people will know about, though I’m mentioning it now, but I would look back and say, “Oh yeah, there’s my public ministry. There’re the things that people will know about and then there’s this long ministry, deeply personal of just loving it and caring for someone imperfectly.

But it was as much a call upon my life as anything public that I’ve ever done. And in the end to know that he went to be with the Lord and died in faith and that I had sensed deeply from the Lord, “Your race with him is finished. Thank you. Well done.” Again, not perfectly. Cara, I think about that and the kind of way in which we are often called to just faithfully walk with the Lord and in the end, was it deeply fulfilling?

Absolutely. But fulfilling in a way that was so surprising and unexpected. And so, to recognize that our call can be one that in our moment may not feel fulfilling at all except for fulfilling the purposes of God, except for walking with someone who might drive us nuts. But years, decades later, discovering the joy of having been invited to care or love or walk with you — you fill in the blank. And that’s the kind of slow burn ministry that is often not the attractive ministry. We want the bright flash. And yet the Lord will often make sure that even those of us who might have bright, flashy moments in our ministry, we’ll be called to be faithful in the slow burn of someone in our life, and that might be the greater test of our faithfulness in ministry.

[00:20:13] Cara: Walter, first I want to thank you for sharing that. That’s a beautiful testament to the ways God has called you and worked in and through and around you and your family in your life. So, thank you for sharing that personal story with us.

We’re blessed by that. And I think even opening that awareness to us, that calling really is bringing us into the fulfillment of God’s purposes and not just our own kind of sense of personal satisfaction, I think is huge. Because in that moment, maybe it doesn’t feel great, right?

But when we talk about calling, it’s not necessarily what do we want to do? What’s that big superhero ministry moment? But how are we being invited into just playing a part in God’s overall purposes. And sometimes playing that small part in what God is doing around us is costly, is the knit and grit, the good, bad, and the ugly.

And I think that is really important, especially in our context, for us personally and corporately, to wrestle with that because I think we like the good and the flashy a lot more than the bad and the ugly, right? We want to feel very good about our calling. We got called to this really great glamorous thing, or we want to latch onto this one task or this one ministry as a sense of calling, not necessarily as a way of being or walking with somebody. And so, I really appreciate that description of calling that you’ve offered to us as well. Thank you.

[00:22:07] Walter: Yeah. My first assignment you mentioned I was a campus minister, worked as a chaplain at Yale, and my director, this was fresh out of college, my first ministry assignment, and one of my earliest conversations with the director is, let me give you some perspective on ministry.

Ministry is people. People are messy. Therefore, ministry will be messy.

[00:22:35] Cara: Yes.

[00:22:35] Walter: That was like the first lesson of ministry showing up on campus. So eager to share my faith and love students and being told by my director, ministry is people, people are messy. Therefore, ministry is going to be messy. And I think life has proven that to be very, very true.

[00:22:58] Cara: Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, what wise ways to start your ministry? And I think, as we’ve been discussing, you’ve shared a lot of really meaningful insights into why and how relationships are at the center of kingdom living and the riches and the beauty of that.

And so, I’m wondering maybe what are some practices or rhythms for us in our church communities and neighborhoods? What can we do to help us nurture that relational nature of kingdom living in our own contexts?

[00:23:40] Walter: Yeah. When Jesus sent people out, he sent them out in twos. When he was in the Garden of Gethsemane — this is the Son of God, right? He’s in the Garden of Gethsemane and he wants Peter, James, and John to be with him, to be praying with him — the intimacy of that. Again, Paul, Barnabas went out together and if you look at a lot of Paul’s letters, they were written with Silas or some other, someone else as well.

So, all throughout Scripture we get this deep sense that folks were sent in ministry teams. They were sent in context in which they were to share the joys and the sorrows of ministry with others. One practical thing is, “Who can I be doing this with?” Always asking the question. “Who, can I bring along as I am trying this?”

And then also to be thinking, again, as Paul often did, “Who are the people that I’m seeking to mentor?” The admonition to Timothy of finding faithful people who you would be able to teach and then they would be able to teach others as well. So, thinking about, “Who are folks that you could be building into?” And then of course, “Who are the folks that you can be learning from?”

And so, constantly asking those questions, just practically, “As I do this particular thing who can I be bringing along?” And it could be actually doing something together, co-leading something, but it also could be as simple as, “I’m working on this project and rather than just fulfilling this project, but on my own, just say, I want to pass this by you. Can you give me some advice?”

And to constantly be asking that, even if it’s like preparing your own sermon. Do we take the time to say before we actually get up on a Sunday to preach? “Did I vet this stuff with someone else? Did I invite someone else to gimme some feedback in my dialoguing with how this passage is working itself out?”

One is to constantly be asking, “Who can I bring along? Who could I be building into? Who can I be learning from?” And to have that corporate relational mentality with the type of ministry that I’m pursuing.

[00:26:17] Cara: Thank you. That’s a really practical place for us to … practical and I think really impactful place for us to really be intentional about bringing in these rhythms and practice of being relational in the ways that we live out the kingdom in our communities. So, I appreciate that. And I’m wondering, as we get ready to close up this first mini episode of our series: Any final words that you have for our listeners about the relational component of kingdom living?

[00:26:56] Walter: Yeah. I think, perhaps there’s no better way to end than Jesus’ prayer in John 17. What was on Jesus’ mind and heart the night before he was betrayed and he was going to die? You would think whatever’s of utmost importance. I’m going to emphasize that he thinks back to the years of ministry.

“This is my final chance to solidify a final lesson before I’m crucified.” So, the last earthly night with his disciples. And what does he do? He prays. He prays for them to be one, even as he’s one with the Father, that they would be one, so that the world would know. So, I think to recognize that this relational aspect of kingdom living is so important, that it was Jesus’ final thought and final prayer for us before he was crucified.

And to recognize that by putting in Scripture and by knowing that Jesus even now is constantly making intercession on our behalf. What is he praying? My guess is that he’s still praying John 17 for us. And so, to recognize that it’s not only important, but we actually have Jesus praying for us to live kingdom lives that are relational.

[00:28:42] Cara: Thank you. We love to have our guests close our episodes out with a word of prayer for our leaders, our members, our church neighbors. And so, would you be willing to say a word of prayer over our listeners and their people?

[00:29:07] Walter: Yeah, absolutely.

Heavenly Father, thank you that you yourself sent your beloved Son, and even now have given us fellowship with the Spirit, three in one. We praise you that you are relationship in being. And we recognize that our call is the call into this life of relationship. Your prayer was that we would be one with you, with one another, and that through that loving community give witness to the world of who Jesus is and the eternal life given to us in him. We pray that whatever the situation we may find ourselves in, whatever messiness of relationship that we may find ourselves in, that we trust your call upon our life to enter into it and fulfill your purposes through it. In the beautiful name of Jesus, we pray. Amen.

[00:30:15] Cara: Amen. Thank you.

And until next time, folks, keep on living and sharing the gospel. Thanks for listening. We would love to hear from you; email us info@gci.org. And we hope to see you at the 2026 Denominational Celebration in Texas from July 23 – July 26, 2026. Visit us at gci.org/dc26 for more information and to register.

The post Kingdom Living (Part 1): Relational w/ Walter Kim first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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In 2026, the GC Podcast is introducing a new format. Instead of monthly episodes, the podcast will feature two miniseries released throughout the year. This shift allows us to go deeper into meaningful conversations that support our shared journey of Kingdom Living. We’re excited to launch the first series in the February Equipper. The series features Rev. Dr. Walter Kim, president of the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE) and keynote speaker for the 2026 Denominational Celebration. Joining host Cara Garrity, Dr. Kim explores what it means to live as citizens of God’s kingdom in today’s world. What does it look like to live faithfully in Christ, formed in community, and engaged in mission? Stay tuned for this rich and timely series....

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Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to this episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches. I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today I am happy to have Bharat Naker as our guest. Bharat is senior pastor in the Brisbane area of Australia and is the team leader for the Christian Discipleship Pathway in Australia. Thank you so much for joining us, Bharat.

Bharat: My pleasure, Cara. Thank you.

Cara: And today we’re going to be continuing our exploration of our 2025 theme of kingdom culture. And we’re going to do that by continuing our conversation of our investment of time, talent, and treasure in the kingdom.

And today we’re going to be focusing specifically on talent. And so, Bharat, I’m wondering, just to start us off. What would you say? What does our talent have to do with kingdom culture? And by that talent, meaning our gifts and our strengths and the things that we are gifted and led to give to our surroundings and our teams and things of that sort.

[00:01:29] Bharat: Yes. Thank you, Cara, for that question. I find it interesting in reflecting on 1 Corinthians where they thought they were so gifted. And then Paul had to remind them that really it is God who works in us to do what is good and what is best. And in that sense, they had to die to themselves and allow Christ to work in them. And to know that, in that sense, it doesn’t matter whether we have few gifts, as it were, in our own eyes or if we think we have plenty of gifts. Either way, it’s all in submission to Christ, without whom we can do nothing.

So, I would say that as far as the kingdom culture and the kingdom of God is concerned, it is clearly God’s calling. It’s God’s gifting. It’s God work, God’s work in us. And, without that, even if we bring gifting to the table, it may need to be crucified before it can be used. And that sounds very painful but God’s gifting is a wonderful thing.

And he has equipped everyone with talents and giftings. We are made in his image. We already are gifted just with the gift of reflecting God in our being as created in His image. So, already God has already blessed us so tremendously, and yeah, so it’s wonderful to be called to serve with our talents in the purpose that God calls us to.

[00:03:11] Cara: Yeah. Thank you for that.

And I think that sets us off in a really meaningful place, because like you said, it’s about what we’ve been gifted from God and that that is offered through us, not about what we feel like we ourselves are bringing to the table on our own by ourselves, but all coming from God. And I think that’s a really important place for us to start because we start from that humble posture of receiving, not from that arrogant posture of I’m bringing this talent, I’m bringing something to the table that’s of me and only me, and so I’m better than somebody else, or maybe I’m less than somebody else. And there’s comparison in that way. But it’s about what God is doing in and through us and how he’s reflecting who he is through his people.

And I love how you say even our talents might have to be crucified, because in that sense we’re talking about the stewardship of our talents. Maybe they do need to be refined in that way, transformed in that way because there maybe are things about our talents, that maybe we do sometimes have selfish motivations about it or arrogant motivations.

And it doesn’t mean that that’s not the gifting God has given us. We just need to be discipled in that area so that our use of that gifting reflects the kingdom more so than this kind of dynamic of the world where, maybe, we’re like, I’m better than you because I have this gift. So, I think that’s such an important place that you’ve started us off with.

[00:04:52] Bharat: It’s a reminder from from this book called Crucifixion of Ministry. We see so many mega ministries, not to put them down or put anyone down, but the issue is that when we trumpet our gifts, as in, I will build a church, I will build a ministry, I will be superhero, then the issue becomes time and again this crucifixion of ministry. Clearly people have all … anything we have comes from God. Life comes from God. Gifts come from God. Everything comes from God. But it is to be channeled for kingdom service. And so, it has to be reshaped, not in the form of the world, but in the form of Christ.

[00:05:45] Cara: Yes. And I think even, I love that you referenced, like in 1 Corinthians and the Corinthian church, how they felt like, yeah, we have all of these gifts and talents and things like that, that as the church we bring to the table. Because Paul, as he addresses them later on, as he’s talking about those gifts and their role in the church, then he goes on to say, but essentially like it’s all useless without love, right? What’s the use of these things without love? Because love is the greatest way.

And so, I think that even this is a good reminder for us. What does it tangibly look like for our talents and our gifts, our strengths that we’re bringing to the table in our lives in ministry, to be being refined in that way. Is it being used and offered in love? Is it being expressed in love? And if not where we may be just — I love that expression — like clanging symbols, right? So, I really love that you referenced that kind of dynamic in Corinthians.

[00:06:59] Bharat: Moses said, “Look, I don’t have the gift of speaking and I don’t think I can do this job. See you later.” But God, when God calls someone for a purpose, he does not just change his mind about that. He doesn’t withdraw his calling. He’s going to work through, with that person. So, whichever way we come at the gifting thing, where thinking we don’t have any gifts, well, Moses was told, “Look, I’m the one who equips you anyway.”

[00:07:32] Cara: I love that. That’s an excellent reminder, too, in all ways it’s really coming from God. Whether we feel ill-equipped or over-equipped, it’s about what God is doing and how he’s leading us even to use these gifts he’s given us.

[00:07:47] Bharat: Absolutely.

[00:07:48] Cara: Yeah. And so, I was just wondering what it has looked like for you to be discipled in your investment of your own talents, your own giftings in the kingdom.

[00:07:59] Bharat: Yes. Thank you for asking that. Looking back, really, I realize that God does work through other people clearly. And it’s not just a matter of whatever giftings he has just given me, but also the way others come. Encouragers, like Paul had Barnabas to come by his side and help him in the growth of his ministry. And I think mentors and supporters or encouragers are very important in this journey. I found that as I was beginning in my Christian life, there were people who had journeyed ahead, who encouraged me in one way or the other, to say, “Hey, why don’t you join with me in public speaking? Or why don’t you do this? Have you considered this?” And I think of a couple of those examples.

So, my discipleship has been helped through the encouragement of others, I feel, including my ministry call. Because it was at a particular juncture when my wife and I were newly married, that we came across a person who right away, for some reason, saw something, that we were newlyweds and that we were young, that we can be discipled further, and they encouraged us to to come to college, to go to college in United States, or to consider applying for college and to see where God leads us. And that was theological course.

So, it changed our life completely, because of someone tapping on our shoulders and saying, “Have you considered this?” So, I’ve been discipled, if you like, through the help of others, as well as God working in me for his purpose, and helping me grow in whatever giftings he has given me.

[00:10:11] Cara: I really love hearing that example of how the church, as a community, as a body of people is lived out in this, that you’ve been discipled in those relationships, and that the community of the church has worked that way for you, and that this isn’t something that we do in isolation.

And so, I wonder, it makes me think about the Christian discipleship pathway that you guys are using in Australia to continue to disciple and develop the giftings and the callings and the ministry participation of some emergent leaders across the country. And so, can you just share a little bit more about that and how that is creating a space to support the discipleship and stewardship of their talents and their giftings into the kingdom.

[00:11:09] Bharat: Absolutely. I would love to discuss that because it’s been an exciting two years in this process. We are in the second year of our Christian discipleship pathway.

So, it began, of course, about three years ago when we were considering how best we can implement a ministry training center in our region that is Australia, New Zealand, Pacific Islands like Fiji and Solomon Islands and Papua New Guinea. This is the region that we are serving in, that Daphne is leading as the superintendent in this area.

And her heart was for how can we best serve? And part of that was getting some help from outside in consulting for how can we implement a future-looking plan, a vision. And we came up with the help of another ministry person outside of Grace Communion who sort of held the mirror for us as a leadership team.

And from that, one of the things we identified was the need to build up leaders and to build up new leaders as well. So, for young and old, so to speak — when I say old, I don’t mean … I think that there is prospect for ministry at every stage of life. Some of our best, if you like, servants are people even in their eighties and even early nineties. So, it’s never too late to minister, no matter where we are, what stage of life we’re in. It’s just the shape of that ministry and the opportunities might differ at different ages. But we felt strongly that we want to do something to equip and disciple people further in whatever they’re doing or if they’re not doing, to encourage them to grow.

So, the Christian Discipleship Pathway came about as a result of considering the MTC for our region. But we realized that maybe we need a bit more broader approach to include the sort of realities of our region. We are spread out and it’s hard to have a concentration of a group for starting, at this stage, starting a ministry training center. So we thought let’s do something still in the region of developing people. And we are blessed with Ambassador College of Christian Ministry based here —ACCM.

And so, we thought, why don’t we combine mentoring in one term and then encouraging those same people to continue on with qualification in ministry through ACCM. So, it’s a twofold calendar year. The first term is on developing skills, if you like, softer skills or ministry skills that are not academically oriented, per se, and to encourage how they can serve in their local area.

This discipleship focus has gone in a threefold way. One is how can they serve all throughout the year in their particular area. The second thing is to equip them with practical skills in the first term and discuss those and encourage those. And this is all happening through Zoom in terms of actual teaching.

And then in the second term they get to enroll in the Ambassador College of Christian Ministry. And already we’ve ended the second year. So, the first year was Jesus and the Gospels, second year course was spiritual formation.

So, that’s what we’ve done and we’ve had, oh, over 40 people each year enroll from across the region. And it’s been really exciting to see that.

[00:15:25] Cara: That is an encouraging thing to hear about, and I think one of the themes that I pull out of that again as well as with your own experience that you shared is coming together in community to be developed and discipled, to come together in community as we grow. And what are the ways that God has gifted us and drawn us into ministry participation? And that we don’t do it alone. There are ways that others can speak life into us. There are ways that others can help to develop what God has already put there.

There are ways that we can be encouraged, that we can be mentored. I love that mentoring is one of the aspects of the CDP and it has those kind of multidimensional aspects, where you have the academic, you have the hands-on, you have the relational, you have the what does this look like? Long term in your local kind of context, what does it look like? Today, right now, what skills are you needing and developing? And I think a key thing that I wanna draw out for the listeners is that it’s intentional. What I heard is what you guys are doing is very intentional. And I think that that is one way that we can shape our stewardship of our talents personally as well as corporately to shape our stewardship of talents in the kingdom is to be intentional about how are we discipling one another? What spaces are we creating to do that? And I’m just so encouraged hearing about your CDP and what that engagement has looked like.

[00:17:15] Bharat: Yes. Thank you, Kara. And you bring out two good points that I want to reemphasize or to talk from our experience, and that intentionality was the driving force in creating the CDP. I well remember the first times we’d started discussing and the road for us as leaders wasn’t clear as to how we’ll go about doing this. But we were all of one mind as we prayed about it and discussed it and even what to call this new intentional vehicle, if you like. And we thought discipleship has really got to be at the core of this thing. And so, create a pathway where not just some of our students are young in their twenties, especially in Fiji, and it’s exciting to see avenue leaders, young leaders, as well as we’ve had some students who are still serving in their eighties, who have agreed to participate and at different stages. Not everyone goes from one year to the other, but we get a mix of different ones each year.

The other aspect that I want to emphasize, which you mentioned, was mentoring. Daphne was very keen to see that the students are not just left — the participants, I should say — are not just left with the Zoom sessions, but have someone to talk it over with, a mentor that could encourage them.

So, each participant is assigned a helper, a mentor with whom they could discuss their progress. So, this has been really good because that is outside of, if you like, the gathering stage where we gather to over Zoom. They may be able to meet their mentor locally or sometimes even across regions. And this has been fruitful in terms of even cross-regional development and individual mentoring of participants. Some of the participants are already experienced and elders already serving. Others, as I said, are brand new students, young students who are starting off. So, that variety is also good because in that community setting there, everyone is learning together, humbly encouraging one another, and just growing in that process.

So yes, it’s an exciting, intentional process and we don’t have it all figured out, but we’ve started by the grace of God. And so, we’ve started in this adventure of learning and growth and we just hope we can build upon it as we finish off this year. And we are already looking at now how do we go about the third year?

And one very important aspect of that ongoing development is this, going back to how I was tapped on the shoulder by others and encouraged along the way. In participation we are encouraging all the pastors to see who’s serving, who can serve, and to tap them on the shoulder, encourage them to participate.

[00:20:51] Cara: Yes. Oh, there’s so much richness there in what you just said. I think the first thing that really spoke to me is in the mentoring and in kind of the multi-generational participation in this development pathway, I think two things are really important that I want our listeners to hear from what you’re sharing is when we have that mentoring, then there’s multiple ways that people are able to be investing their giftings in the kingdom because mentoring’s also a gift. And being able to pour into others is a gift to the church community.

And so, what a beautiful way to intentionally create space for that to happen and for that to happen in an ongoing way. And I think the way that you guys have created a space for people at different life stages to, like you said, humbly be engaging and growing in what their discipleship and what their ministry participation looks like is so important because our lives are not static, because our God is not static, right?

And so, stewarding our talents, I believe, is a lifelong process, because maybe at different stages of life, we have different skill sets that are more meaningful to us than others. Maybe we’ve learned things that we didn’t know before. Maybe we have access to information and knowledge and networks that we didn’t before.

There’s so many things that are dynamic about our lives. Our callings can be dynamic. And so, to create a space where we’re intentionally saying — you don’t say yes to one thing at one point in your life, and that’s it for forever. I think is a beautiful thing that you guys are doing, a very dynamic way of stewarding and discipling our giftings.

So, I love that. And I think also what I don’t want our listeners to miss is what you said about that shoulder tapping. I think that shoulder tapping makes me think of the Engage of our Four Es, tapping on the shoulder and saying, “Hey, I see this gifting in you. I see what God is doing in you, what he’s put in you. Do you want to come along and participate? Do you want to see what it would be like to develop this gift, to exercise it in the ministry of our local congregation? And to be discipled in that way?” I think that’s huge, because how many of us, if it wasn’t for someone tapping us on the shoulder and saying, “Hey, I see what God has put in you,” if it wasn’t for that, how many of us would even be where we are today? So yes. Thank you for mentioning that shoulder tapping. I think that, I agree with you that is so critical.

[00:23:43] Bharat: Absolutely. And then yeah, and it’s encouraging also to see when, say — I’m thinking of one particular person who there was an opportunity in a service to say, “Would you like to do reading?” because the person who was supposed to do a scripture reading could not come. And they said, “Yeah, sure I’ll do the reading.” And they were a new member. But I’ve seen that person grow and they’re actually one of our chief participants. I won’t embarrass them, but they’ve grown so much through just being invited to participate and to contribute in a small way. And that’s just blossomed out into this whole continuous growth. And in a short period of time, too, like in a couple of years, they’re serving in a tremendous way. So, one never knows these turning points, how tapping someone on the shoulder for even a small invitation to participate can change, be the start of that leaven leavening the whole lump type of thing, where they just start growing by the grace of what God is doing in their lives. And, and I like your statement about creating space.

[00:25:04] Cara: Yes. That’s an excellent example. And I think even starts to answer the last question that I had for you today, for our listeners that are hearing this conversation and are like, “This sounds really rich, really meaningful. What is the next step for us?”

My question for you is, what is one way we can practice the discipleship, the stewardship, the investment of our talents in the kingdom? And so, I think some of the things you’ve just mentioned start to answer that already. So, what else would you add to that for our listeners who are wanting to move forward with stewarding giftings into the kingdom?

[00:25:46] Bharat: Yes. I would say an openness. Sometimes we all have our own fears and concerns about our own abilities. And we find in scripture that even to Mary, who’s encountered, or the disciples, one of the first things God says is, “Don’t fear. Be at peace. Be open to the opportunity.”

And so, what am I saying? I’m saying that as one intentional way that people can respond is, when an opportunity comes, to trust God to walk them through it and not to close the door on an opportunity to serve in some way. Even if you feel, I’m not equipped for this opportunity, trust God that if he has opened the door to try to see where that leads. If that sounds too mystical, but you know what I’m saying, be responsive. That’s what I’m talking about.

[00:26:56] Cara: Yes. No, absolutely. I think that is great advice for our listeners because when we’re open, that leaves us open to the discerning of the Spirit and whatever next step God is inviting us into.

So, thank you for sharing that wisdom with us and for the richness of your entirety of the insights that you’ve shared with us today, Bharat. I am so thankful for what God is doing through the CDP, what he’s done through your life and leadership, and so thankful for you taking the opportunity to pass those insights along to us today.

As we like to do with GCPodcast we love to end the show with prayer and so, would you be willing to pray for our leaders, our churches, our members, and listeners across GCI?

[00:27:49] Bharat: It’d be my pleasure to pray for others. Yes.

Thank you, Lord. We just thank you for the wonderful blessing you’ve given us of including us in your mind and in your communion as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We thank you that you are, you delight in us, that you delight in seeing us grow, and we have so much growing to do, each one of us, and it is only possible in Christ. As it says you are the vine, we are the branches, and we want to be fruitful in the calling that you’ve given us.

So, I want to pray for all those who are listening today, and even those who may not be listening, those who’ve been called to serve in whatever way. I just pray, Father, that we in Grace Communion can continue to hear your call to grow, to participate in Kingdom work, to continue to recognize that we are kingdom servants and that is our primary call in life as your people. So, help us to be not just citizens of the Kingdom, but to be ambassadors. And as ambassadors, help us to grow in that in that capacity to serve in the unique locations in which you place us and help us to grow in our giftings by by being open to you as you work in our life. So, we seek your blessing, Lord, and thank you so much. In Jesus’ name we pray. Amen.

[00:29:32] Cara: Amen. Folks, until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thank you for listening to the GC Podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org. And remember, healthy churches grow from hearts grounded in Christ. As you invest in yourself and your leaders, keep your eyes on Jesus, our faithful guide and sustaining hope.

The post Discipleship of Talent w/ Bharat Naker first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Discipleship of Time w/ Alexander Brandt

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to this episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches. I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today I am happy to have Alexander Brandt as our guest. Alexander is a pastor at GCI Winnipeg, and today we’re going to continue our conversation exploration of our 2025 theme Kingdom Culture by continuing this conversation about our investment of time, talent, and treasure, and the kingdom.

Today we’re going to be focusing on our investment of time. So, Alexander, thank you so much for joining us today.

Alexander: Of course. Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

[00:00:49] Cara: Absolutely. And so, as we jump right on in, I’m just curious: From your perspective, what does our time even have to do with this idea of kingdom culture?

[00:01:01] Alexander: Oh, that’s a great question. I think one of, I’m just going to go back to my history a little bit, and one of the things I grew up wondering was about time and I also started looking at time as a commodity that I could spend. And I realized that I wasn’t probably giving a tithe of my time, even though there’s no scripture that tells you to give a tithe of your time.

But I was considering how much time it actually takes to give a tithe and on the one hand, it feels like it’s too much, like you’re asking for 16 hours a week, which seems significant. And yet, as I got older, I realized the whole idea of giving tithe of time is really not accurate to what God is asking of us or what Jesus is requiring of us. In fact, if we want to make it a requirement, what Jesus is asking for is all of our time, all of it, to invest all of us. So, it really isn’t something that we can give a 10% of. It’s something that God wants: all of us, including all of our time.

And it simultaneously lifted the burden off me to feel like, okay, I have to spend four hours serving. I have to spend four hours reading my Bible. I have to spend four hours looking for different opportunities, and then another four hours doing church. It lifted a burden off me so that I could actually spend my time devoted to God.

And on the other hand, it felt like, wow, that’s such a more significant amount of investment because now I have to consider how I’m investing every moment. I just try not to think about it legalistically. I just strive to recognize that me and everything I am and I have is kingdom-based and belongs to the kingdom.

[00:03:31] Cara: Yeah. I really like thinking that perspective and that insight of all of us belongs to the kingdom and to Jesus. And so that’s everything that we have, including time.

And I think that idea of like even time as a commodity is really interesting to me because I think we don’t often reflect on how we spend our time and where we spend our time and what we spend our time doing. But to think of it as a resource in that sense and how is everything that we have invested in the kingdom. I think it’s a really interesting question for us to be reflective of and really to be discerning and praying about.

And so, you’ve shared like a little bit of what this has looked like for you personally in that journey. And so, can you share a little bit more of what it’s looked like for you to be discipled in investing your time in the kingdom? What has that journey looked like? How have you been shaped in this shifting perspective?

[00:04:32] Alexander: Yeah, absolutely. As I was entering into pastoral ministry almost 10 years ago. Then I was working as a lay minister and I was working a full-time job, probably putting in over 50 hours a week at a job that actually paid me. And then I was putting in a lot of extra time for the church and preparing sermons, getting ready for bible studies, trying to work with one-on-one discipleship mentoring kind of stuff.

And then, in the little bit of downtime that I would have, I would end up feeling like, okay, I just want to crash. I just want to essentially waste time. And I found that during that time I would end up feeling more burnt out by wasting my time instead of investing my time. And I slowly begin to realize that you can spend your time doing almost the exact same things, but when you have a different perspective of what you’re doing with your time.

If, for instance, you could waste your time watching TV, but you could invest your time watching TV. If you have a friend that you can intentionally spend time with that friend watching an episode or two of a show, and build into that relationship and invest that time and feel some sort of, and after that experience, you often feel more renewed. But when you just slap on the couch and you just turn on the show and it’s on repeat and it’s just playing, you can often get up from that experience and just be in the daze and really not enjoy the result.

And you’ve essentially done the exact same thing, but one instance you’ve invested that time with a kingdom mindset or with the idea that it’s not about what I’m doing, it’s about … time really is everything.

It’s the most valuable thing we have and when it’s wasted without our direct control of it, just like how with a budget, when you just mindlessly spend and you all of a sudden get out of the haze, you give your head a shake and you think, wow, I’ve really wasted what I thought I worked really hard for, and I just let it slip through my fingers without control.

Time is the exact same thing, except for we don’t work really hard for it. God has worked really hard for it on our behalf. And when we just let it slip through our fingers, we end up in that similar kind of haze and we wake up and shake our head and wonder how did I just let that go without intentionally controlling this valuable commodity.

And I’ve lost track of the question. It’s just something I’m very passionate about because of the value of it. And so, as I went from a young minister who felt like I had to just turn my brain off at times and I end up wasting time, I’ve now realized how valuable it is, even during downtime, to be intentional about how you are rejuvenating yourself.

So even if you can’t invest in other people with your downtime, if you’re an introvert and you need to recharge by being by yourself, be intentional about the things that you know bring you energy. Even if you’re not a great painter, maybe you need to paint, maybe you need to listen to worship music or you have to listen to whatever kind of music that that you can really reconnect with. Or you go to a park or you drink a really good cup of coffee or whatever it is. Be intentional with how you are restoring that energy instead of allowing more time to slip away and you’ll end up … even if you might end up a little bit more physically tired, your brain will be in a much better spot and you’ll feel much more renewed if you are intentional with that time, especially on the recharge side of things.

[00:09:48] Cara: I am really — what’s the word I’m looking for — really interested in this comparison that you’ve made between wasting time and investing time. I think that’s a really, clear and, I think, impactful image of, are we wasting time, investing it?

And I really like your point that sometimes it’s even the same activity, but it’s just what’s our posture of it? What’s the purpose of that time?

Alexandar: Exactly.

Cara: So, maybe it’s not even the activity itself. But what are we doing it for? Why are we doing it? But I think that’s really … yeah, I just, I’ve never really heard that quite succinct way of wasting versus investing time in that way.

And I think our use of time, like you said, even for the rejuvenation of ourself or the investment in relationships or kind of those things that are edifying and support our work with God. I think that investment can look a lot of different ways, but it’s an investment instead of that wasting. Yeah, I really like that image. Thanks for sharing that.

And so, when we start thinking about, then, what that can look like to invest in instead of waste, what is maybe one thing that you would say we can do to participate in this discipleship and investment of our time in the kingdom?

[00:11:19] Alexander: Yeah. I think the best way to start investing in the kingdom is investing in people. People are … so time is the most valuable thing you have and the most important thing that you spend that on is other people. Other people are the most valuable thing that God wants, and we are in the kingdom.

And so, I just go ahead, extend this metaphor a little bit — if we have this commodity and it’s going to be our best asset at purchasing the most valuable thing to add to the kingdom, that just as our dollars are the most valuable thing for adding things to our physical lives, our material state, our time is that valuable thing to add the things that God wants in the kingdom, and that’s other people.

So, if you are trying to invest that time, bring other people along. If you’re going for coffee and you have the … so for me, I need a little bit of alone time for rejuvenating. But if you have that, if you want to get a cup of coffee anyways, and it’s just part of how you’re spending your day, invite somebody, bring them along. And it doesn’t have to be a scripted conversation about the gospel. You are being good news if you are embodying and extending the good news that which you have received, then you are investing that, what you have, into that other person.

And investing in other people is crucial. And I think, and the conversation will probably get there, but when we talk about church we aren’t better together because it’s easier together. We are better together because we aren’t ultimately looking for my personal success. We aren’t looking for your personal success. We’re looking for the success of the kingdom. And so that means we benefit the kingdom when we invest in one another, even if we’re investing in fellow believers. Even if we are like co-mentoring each other, or I’m not sure if that’s really a thing that I’d like.

[00:14:20] Cara: I’d like to think so. Yes.

[00:14:23] Alexander: All of my friendships feel that way, like I don’t feel like there’s a mentor-mentee kind of situation, but, rather, we learn from each other and we benefit each other. And that’s iron sharpening iron, I suppose, is the biblical analogy there. But it really is.

If you want to start, just start small and bring other people along. And you might not think that you have this wealth of wisdom to share. But again, the wisdom isn’t the most valuable thing that you have to share. It’s your heart. If you share your time with people, that will be good news for them.

[00:15:12] Cara: Yes, I really appreciate even that practical step of starting small and starting with something that you already do. Like if you already go and get a cup of coffee, then just bring somebody along. Going back to the idea of investing versus just like wasting or using time. If you’re already doing it anyways, can you do it in a way that maybe has a, like you said, that analogy, like a higher level of investment in kingdom values.

Because if we think about like kingdom culture and how we’re building and participating in that culture I think you’re absolutely right that people and relationships have such high value in a culture that reflects the kingdom. And so how do we spend our time in a way that reflects that and participates in that?

Even as you were talking, I get this image of what are, and you’ve inspired me to think about things like, what are the things that I do in my day-to-day life that are just ordinary things that have to get done that could be infused with this really intentional relational aspect, like grocery shopping. Everyone needs to go grocery shopping. So why not grocery shop together? And that transforms then into a time of just getting things that you need, which is valuable, right? Because you need to get food for yourself and your household and whatever that looks like. But it can transform it into something even a little bit more rich, where you’re doing that while you’re spending time with somebody.

And I like how you said, like, where you’re blessing them, of being good news to them, just by the sharing of your time. So, I really think that’s a helpful practical step to start with what you already do. Just bring folks along and be like that.

[00:17:01] Alexander: Yeah. And I, if I could build off your example of grocery shopping, that’s something that we don’t think of enough, especially … I’m sure most of the people listening live in a city or live close to a city. They understand what a university is. And a lot of the younger people that you want to bring into your churches, they might have moved there to go to university, and mom and dad might have taught them to do their laundry.

But how do I go grocery shopping? How do I actually find a good deal? What is a good deal? That’s an incredible resource that most parents don’t think to pass down to their kids because the taking that time to intentionally say, “Okay, this is a good price for meat,” or “this is a good price for milk,” or “this is a good price for eggs,” and “watch these flyers.”

It’s something that, it’s just such a chore for parents to do groceries that they don’t think about passing that skill set down. And so that’s an incredible opportunity to bless, encourage, and mentor, especially young people who are looking for that. And I promise, no matter what your church has as far as music, if you have people in your church that are helping the university students, the freshman students learn how to do grocery shopping, that feeling of, oh, people are investing their energy, their effort, their time, that’s going to change a young person’s life in dramatic ways.

[00:19:02] Cara: And I really appreciate that you … I think we often give that attention to things like what’s the style of music or those kinds of aspects to attract young people. But I think that you’re right. I think it’s that relational aspect and how are we building and investing in those relationships with our time that really matters most.

[00:19:13] Alexander: Yeah, absolutely. I have in our congregation, … and I’m definitely not perfect at this and I’m, like I said, I can be a little bit more introverted at times … I’m still, this is something I’m still growing in, but our young adults leader, a person that’s leading the college and career age ministry right now, I happen to be there and around and God gave me the opportunity to invest into his life and I’m convinced that the reason he’s in our church isn’t because we have the best music or the most entertaining sermon even, or the most inspiring service. But it’s because people have invested and then right away, he started investing back into serving in the kitchen and then didn’t take long by his own investment of time. And so, the investment that was right away placed in and with him, he started to return with his own investment of time.

And he has really transformed our young adults’ ministry in an incredible way. And that would’ve never happened. But yeah, if people didn’t Intentionally invest with him when he first got to our church, I’m at least 80% sure that he would’ve found another church that had at least a better service or had a little bit more money to put towards the experience of coming on a Sunday morning.

[00:21:06] Cara: Yeah. And I think that’s such a tangible example even of what do we mean when we talk about kingdom culture, right? Because what are the most important aspects of that culture? And I think sometimes when we think of culture, we think of like, how does, you know the Sunday worship experience sound, how does it look? How does it, and those are all things that are part of a church’s local expression of culture.

But when we’re talking about like how, what time has to do with kingdom culture, I think those are the lesser, right, those lesser things. And so, I think that’s a really powerful example that you’ve given, that what was a thing that kind of multiplied tenfold within your congregation was the investment of time and then this person’s reinvestment of that time because of what was invested in them.

[00:22:00] Alexander: Yeah, exactly. And I think that church culture is far more about how this; how it makes somebody feel when they are there, because you’ll never out entertain a movie theater. Whatever the latest nightclub is doing, you’ll never outdo that. But you can make people feel that they matter and that they are worth investing in. And when they receive that gift, they will reciprocate.

[00:22:38] Cara: Well, this has been really rich. I have really appreciated your insights, Alexander. As we’re getting ready to wrap up our conversation, what is maybe a final word of advice or encouragement that you would offer to our listeners who are really starting to be prayerful and discerning about the use and investment of their own time?

[00:22:58] Alexander: Yeah, I think I’ll return a little bit to that. I mentioned how parents — and I’m experiencing this myself. I know how when you’re taking care of chores, then involving somebody else makes that more difficult and slows you down. And so, whether you are talking about parenting or discipling, which I think is really very similar work, don’t be afraid to have the process slowed down if that means that you are investing your effort and time into somebody else’s life.

Because that time will hopefully give them a skillset or that will give them encouragement or it’ll give them a little bit of wisdom, or it will help them understand at the very least. At the very least, it’ll help them know that they are loved and worth somebody investing their time in. And I know that God invested everything into them by Jesus dying on the cross. I know that it’s worth at least us slowing down and taking a little bit more time, too, even if it makes our chores go a little bit longer.

[00:24:22] Cara: Amen. Amen. Thank you for leaving us with that last encouragement. And thank you for taking your time to join us today and for sharing what God has been doing in your life, what you’ve been seeing, and how you’ve seen that even growing within the life of your congregation. I really appreciate you gifting us with this time today.

And so, it is our practice with GC Podcast to end our show in prayer. And so, would you be willing to pray for our churches and our pastors, our members, ministry leaders, and GCI and all of our listeners?

[00:25:00] Alexander: Absolutely.

Heavenly Father, we praise you that you are God, Creator, Sustainer. You have given us this life. All that we have is from you. I pray for all of the members of the GC denomination and those in churches outside of the denomination, all those who are part of your church. I pray, Lord, that you would bless them and encourage them by them taking the time to listen to the podcast, by them taking time to search for you and search for a deeper relationship with you. I pray, Lord, that you would return their effort and grow in them a deep and rich relationship with you. And I pray as people continue on with their day, I pray, Lord, that you would go with them and give them your peace by the power of your Holy Spirit, strengthening them and encouraging them. In Jesus’ name, amen.

[00:26:09] Cara: Amen. Until next time y’all keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thank you for listening to the GC Podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org. And remember, healthy churches grow from hearts grounded in Christ. As you invest in yourself and your leaders, keep your eyes on Jesus, our faithful guide and sustaining hope.

The post Discipleship of Time w/ Alexander Brandt first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Discipleship of Treasure w/ Rose Hamrick

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to this episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches. I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today I am so blessed to have Rose Hamrick as our guest with us today. Rose is the Chief Financial Officer for Grace Communion International.

And today we’re going to continue exploring our 2025 theme of Kingdom Culture by discussing our investment of time, talent, and treasure in the kingdom. And we’re going to be today with Rose, focusing on the investment of our treasure in the kingdom. So welcome Rose, and thank you so much for joining us today.

Rose: It’s good to be with you here today, Cara.

Cara: Absolutely. Why don’t we just jump right in. What does our treasure have to do with Kingdom Culture?

[00:01:01] Rose: That’s a good question. I believe essentially everything, and when I say that, we know that treasures are not just material wealth, but it also represents spiritual values and the importance of our relationship with God.

And we know that we give our time, talent, and treasure to those things that we value and prioritize. I believe that we are called to be good stewards of our time, talent, and treasure. And we understand that all of these come from one source, our heavenly Father, right?

He’s so gracious with us, with his time that he gives us always through the presence of his Holy Spirit, never leaving us or forsaking us. It’s one of those many promises to us as his children.

He gives each of us talents for the purpose of serving him and others. He tells us this in Romans 12:6–8, and how gracious is that? He tells us we have different gifts according to the grace given to each of us. And again, in 1 Peter 4, he tells us, “Each of you should use whatever gifts you have received to serve others as faithful stewards of God’s grace.”

So not only is our heavenly Father gracious, but he encourages us to be the same. Then, speaking of our treasure, he is truly our Jehovah Jireh. He’s our provider, our all in all, and through and through. And I say, again, being the source, and he, being the giver of all, expects us to be generous as he is generous to us.

I believe that we’re a blessing to be a blessing to others and for the sake of the kingdom. It reminds me of scripture when he says over in 2 Corinthians 9, where he says, “whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly. And whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.” And again, another scripture in 2 Corinthians talks about “for if the willing is there,” meaning coming from the heart, “the gift is acceptable according to the one who has, not according to what he does not have.”

So, he doesn’t expect us to give what we don’t have. This is clearly seen in the example of the widow’s might and the widow’s offering. It was her heart and attitude that Jesus responded to. She did not have much. But she was with a willing heart, she was willing to give all that she had. In that set of scripture, in that example, the rich gave out of their abundance, but the poor widow gave out of her poverty.

And of course, we will focus on the treasure today. And for the sake of discussion and answering your question I may use treasure interchangeably with finances and resources, if that’s okay.

[00:03:44] Cara: Yes, absolutely.

[00:03:45] Rose: And just to focus on that a little bit more. We give of our treasure the same way that for those things that we value and prioritize and specific in response to our treasure. God is a generous God. He provides generally generously for us as he values and prioritizes us as his children. How we use our treasure and our resources reveals what we value most as well.

In Kingdom Culture, Jesus is who we should value the most — the one who gave his life for us, the one who in his death reconciled us with the Father, the one who’s washed away all of our sins, the one who is our Savior and Redeemer. So, what does our treasure have to do with Kingdom Culture? Everything that truly matters, I would say.

[00:04:42] Cara: Yeah. Thank you for that insight, Rose, and I really appreciate you saying that our treasure as well as our time and our talent, before our focus here today, our treasure follows our priorities.

I think that is really helpful for us to think about, especially when we’re thinking about for us as disciples, how Is our treasure being invested? How is it being discipled? How are we over time shaping what the use of our treasure looks like, our resources? So, yeah, I really appreciate that insight, that our treasure follows our priorities. And so, I’m wondering what has it looked like for you to be discipled in investing your treasures in the kingdom?

[00:05:31] Rose: I think I’d like to answer that in a two-parter. Being discipled to me has been accepting and sharing the gospel of the good news of Jesus Christ and being a Jesus follower, essentially. Essentially being not only a hearer of the word, but a doer of his word. So how do I invest in my treasure in the ways that he shares with me to do so. What an epiphany! Just think about it. To consult the one who holds all treasure, the one who gives all treasure … whether it is our finances or our resources; he is the source and it all belongs to him, and he’s so generous to share with us. He gives us the opportunity to participate in all that he is doing. We have the opportunity to share the gospel of Jesus Christ, the opportunity to support the kingdom.

Also, think about the fact — it reminds me in scripture in Matthew 6 where he tells us we should not store up for ourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy and where thieves can break in, but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. Basically, earthly treasures are temporal and can be lost or destroyed while heavenly treasures are eternal and secure. It reminds me of another scripture in Matthew 6:21 where it talks about, “for where your treasure is there, your heart will be also.”

And when you talk about those things, you talk about generosity in our giving. It talks about how each of us should give what we decide in our hearts to give, not reluctantly or in the compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. He never tells us what to give, but with what heart — an attitude to give.

And one of my favorite scriptures that I hadn’t read in a long time, to be honest, was in Acts 4:32. And it talks about the believers sharing their possessions and how God’s grace was so powerfully at work in this group of people, in his people, that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time, those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales, and put it at the apostles’ feet, and then it was distributed to anyone who had need. I think that’s just a beautiful scripture. That’s how we take care of each other.

[00:08:05] Cara: Yes. Oh, I just, as you were sharing that, that last scripture out of Acts, Rose, it just felt so beautiful to me because when you think about investing our treasure in the kingdom, that’s what a beautiful picture of the kingdom that no one had, that everyone was cared for. Just that reflection of the desire of our God for us to be whole, in his presence and with one another, or that we get to participate in that. Yeah, I love that. I love that.

[00:08:39] Rose: It’s just a true reflection of the love that Jesus has for us and how we should outwardly love one another and how our heavenly Father takes care of us and how we should take care of one another. There’s just so many things that you think about. I was talking about, first of all being discipled, and then the second part of how that, when you look at it, how investing our treasure in the kingdom, being discipled and investing in the kingdom.

[00:09:11] Cara: Yes. Rose, if I can ask you another question, as Chief Financial Officer for GCI, what is something that you’ve learned about the stewardship of our treasures, because you have been entrusted with the stewardship of many people’s investment of their treasure in the kingdom through GCI’s expression of the church and Jesus’ ministry. So, what’s maybe one of the most important or meaningful things that you’ve learned in this role as CFO.

[00:09:46] Rose: I believe the one thing I would say is how faithful our treasurers are, how faithful our members are in their giving. It’s obvious that they see their giving as an expression of worship because they so generously give and we don’t take that for granted.

We certainly invest in the ways that we believe the Holy Spirit is leading us to invest in, for kingdom purposes in sharing the things that of the gospel of the good news of Jesus Christ. And he’s blessed us in that way to be able to do that. And we do take it seriously, first giving it to him in prayer and then following the lead of the Holy Spirit as to where to best invest. And I’m grateful and thankful for our members, our treasurers who invest their time and talent in each one of their local congregations and all that all are doing towards the kingdom. So, I appreciate that.

[00:11:06] Cara: Yeah. And so, as you were saying, Rose, is just one way we can participate in how God loves us and cares for us and it’s a reflection of that.

So, I’m wondering for our listeners, what is just one practice we can start with to practice this discipleship and investment of our treasure in the kingdom, to use the treasures that God has given us to invest in his kingdom, to be like he is.

[00:11:42] Rose: I think the first thing that comes to mind, Cara, when you ask that question for me was prayer. It may seem an odd response, but prayer, thanking God for the resources he has given us. Then praying about how he would have us use those treasures, and then pray that once he reveals to us how we would use our resources, that we’re faithful in our stewardship, we’re consistent, committed, and faithful.

After all, think about it. To give us those resources, he has to put trust in us and then to give back those resources for kingdom purposes, we show who our trust is in. Our trust is in him to be able to, and he’s just really allowing us to participate in what he’s doing in the advancement of the kingdom. And I think that’s a beautiful thing, so that we’re not only hearers of the word, but doers of the word.

[00:12:33] Cara: Yes. And as you say that it really even brings me back to one of the first things that you said is that our treasure follows our priorities. And so, I think prayer even has its role in shaping our priorities and shaping our desires as we grow and are transformed into Christlike ministry.

So, as you pray, I can imagine too, like our desires to use our treasures in his kingdom, and the ways that we are drawn to do that, shift and are transformed as well. It might feel like at first one of those answers like, oh, of course, prayer. But it’s actually very powerful.

[00:13:16] Rose: It is.

[00:13:17] Cara: Our formation in so many ways starts with prayer and our relationship and our walking with God.

[00:13:24] Rose: Absolutely. The one who created us, he knows how we are, how we’re so wonderfully made, how he’s made us, and to go to him about I would say the little things, the big things and everything in between, but in, especially in investment in his kingdom, in whatever way that is, to consult with him first. He is the king of the kingdom to consult with.

How do you want us to participate? How will you have us participate? And it’s all based out of our love that we have for Jesus. And just being focused on the things that are of him, of heavenly things and not earthly things so much.

[00:14:16] Cara: What final words or thoughts or insights, pieces of advice would you have for our listeners as we wrap up our conversation today about investing our treasures in the kingdom?

[00:14:30] Rose: I would say to be good stewards of the treasure God has given you. To be able to be a blessing to others and use it for the advancement of his kingdom.

Whatever he’s given us is for the purpose of being able to share with others. He allows us to be able to take care of ourselves, to be able to share with others, and to be able to give back toward kingdom purposes, to be able to share, because as we share our treasure, we are taking the time to say, “Hey, we know who Jesus is in our lives. We know who he has been to us and what the future holds because of him. And this is just wonderful. We just can’t, they’re too wonderful for words that we can’t just hold it to ourselves. We want to be able to invest in others so that they too can come to know Jesus in the way that we do. And to know him as their Lord and Savior, know him as the one who loved us first.”

And so, in sharing our treasure, we are participating in such a special way. And I believe it is a gift from God to be able to do so. So, to know that when he gives us these gifts, these treasures, to be able to use it for his purpose, it is a blessing. It’s not only a blessing to the one who received it, which is us, but as we give and so, I think that’s what I would like to leave you with today.

[00:16:18] Cara: Yeah, so we’re so thankful for you, Rose, and all that you do to serve God, to serve GCI, to serve his kingdom through your role as CFO and helping to support us as we invest our treasures in this way — our earthly treasures. So, thank you so much, Rose, for all that you do for GCI in that way.

And thank you for just being you and for taking your time to join us today. It is our practice with GC podcasts to end the show with prayer. And so, would you be willing to pray for our churches, pastors, ministry leaders, treasurers, members all across GCI for us today?

[00:16:57] Rose: Absolutely. Absolutely. Let us pray.

Gracious, heavenly Father, we come to you today just thanking you so very much for who you are and who you’ve allowed us to be in you. We thank you that you’ve allowed us to participate in growing and building and moving towards the kingdom, Father. We thank you for all of our members. We thank you for our treasurers who are so faithful and committed to their local congregations, and they support their pastors and facilitators and their congregations in a way that’s immeasurable, Father. We thank you for their faithfulness and their commitment.

We thank you for our pastors who have been called to preach and teach, Father, and their commitment to do so in such a special way, and the gifts that you’ve given them, to be able to use those gifts to share with your people, to share the gospel of the good news of Jesus Christ, Father. We thank you for our ministry leaders as well, Father, that they lead graciously in a committed and faithful way, with integrity, Father. We just thank you that they are of great support to our pastors, to our local congregations. I want to thank you, Father, also for our Home Office staff, Father, who support our international organization here at GCI, Father.

We’re but a small part of the Body of Christ, Father. But we are so grateful and we’re so thankful to be a part, and we’re grateful that you use us in the way that you do, to be able to share more of you with others, more of Jesus with others, Father. So, we just thank you for all of those that support in the different parts of the Body, the gifts that you’ve given us, the talents that you’ve given us, the resources that you’ve given all of us, Father, to be able to support in the way that you would have us to do to support you, to support the work in Jesus, support each other, Father.

We just thank you. We are so grateful, being careful to give you all the glory, honor, and praise that you so deserve in Jesus. In the matchless name of Jesus. Father, we thank you.

[00:19:11] Cara: Amen. Thank you so much, Rose. And until next time you guys keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thank you for listening to the GCPodcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org. And remember, healthy churches grow from hearts grounded in Christ. As you invest in yourself and your leaders, keep your eyes on Jesus, our faithful guide and sustaining hope.

The post Discipleship of Treasure w/ Rose Hamrick first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Discipleship Structures w/ Dr. Rev. Eun Strawser Pt 3

Welcome to the GC Podcast. This year, we’re centering on Kingdom Culture and exploring how it transforms ministry and equips leaders for kingdom living. Through conversations with Grace Communion Seminary professors and a few other guests, we’ll explore how their teachings equip ministry leaders to embody kingdom values.

This is the GC Podcast, where we help you grow into the healthiest ministry leader you can be. Sharing practical insights and best practices from the context of Grace Communion International Churches. Here’s your host, Cara Garrity.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today we complete our mini-series on discipleship with Dr. Reverend Rasser. We are finishing up our conversation surrounding her book Centering Discipleship: A Pathway for Multiplying Spectators into Mature Disciples. If you haven’t already, check out the first two episodes of this mini-series to get a sense of the foundation that we’ve laid so far.

Thank you so much for joining us once again today.

Eun: Oh my gosh. Such a pleasure, Cara.

Cara: Well, we have already explored a lot. We left off the last episode with, you gave some kind of words of encouragement and advisement and spoke about for pastors the process of leading change and what that looks like as we do this good and challenging work of building a discipleship pathway.

In your book, you discuss different approaches to change and suggest transformational change, as a way to approach change as we build out discipleship pathways in our local church context. And so, I’m wondering what are some ways that as local leadership we can facilitate an assessment of behaviors, structures, and assumptions, which is one of the structures of change theory that you put forth in those last few chapters of your book.

[00:02:31] Eun: Yeah. This is probably the part where if I haven’t really made the case that discipleship needs to be centered then this is like the snooze-fest part of the book. Because if you’re not seeing this as a leader for your own self, that discipleship needs to be centered, then you know what, you can close that book right from there. Because that, that part of the book around change dynamics and change theory is really trying to be, if you find yourself as a leader that you have a clear look, landscape of your church and you know that, okay. I desire for discipleship to be centered, but I humbly and honestly can say that discipleship is at the periphery of my church community — if you’re at that point, then the next question will be, then therefore, how can I begin to center discipleship within my local context? If you’re there, then all of these conversations around fleshing out assumptions and structures and behavior. This is when it’s helpful.

And I mention that because I want you to move into that part, and if there’s like any shred of pride still left in you, this is when it gets shredded out. It’s a hard read and this is the part where a lot of leaders tell me, “Eun, that’s a hard, hard read,” because it takes so much humility and this is the part where when I work with leaders, this is the part that I break down and cry, because I just love the people who are trying do this.

It takes a humble leader and to me, you’re already somebody that I want your church to imitate as you imitate Christ. Because humility, that big piece, is such a big, important part of Christlikeness —there’s already a starting point. I just commend all the leaders who get to this point, who have and recognize a desire to center discipleship, who can honestly say that it’s not happening in their local context. And then therefore, how can they do this? Because it begins, how can you hold that tension of really uprooting what I assume about my local community or my people? What do I assume, what do I assume about my own leadership?

The last time we talked about testing and assessing and not being afraid of using those words and really pressing into those practices around our organizations or communities. But it is really taking a look honestly at what structures and systems and constructs are there that help to support our assumptions.

And then the best way is looking at — we really never know if it’s something which is happening or working, or discipleship actually is being centered if we can’t look at the behavior of those people, of the disciples, of the Christians within our local churches. Are they actually beginning to behave more like Christ? And you set that against those clear maturity markers of being a disciple we talked about before. So, this whole process, of looking at it, is a humble work. Sometimes it’s a humbling work. But I think it’s, again, really good work, and it really is giving us concrete next steps to discovering what are those clear next steps that we need to work on or we need to tend to, so that discipleship will be more centered in our midst.

[00:06:18] Cara: Yes. And that’s really helpful, that at this point, we need to be convinced of the work to be done if we’re going to start it because it won’t be easy. Once we are convinced of the importance of doing the work of centering discipleship, then we can move through these pieces. And I again, really appreciate that lack of fear of that idea of assessing and looking at where are these fruits, what do the lives of disciples in our local church look like, the lives of disciples that exhibit these markers that we’ve identified that are clear, that aren’t wishy-washy, that we can’t really put flesh on. So that’s …

[00:07:21] Eun: Can I tell a story to hammer this in a little bit?

Cara: Please.

Eun: Okay. It’s okay. And if I start like, breaking down crying, I apologize. All the listeners having to hear me talk for this long for these many sessions and having to hear me cry …

Cara: You’re allowed.

Eun: So, one of our, one of our disciples in our first year … you know we’re in our seventh year now and we’ve multiplied those centered and bounded set contracts from 1 to 12, seven years later. So, one of those community leaders, her name is Kelsey — she’s like, she’s the quintessential Wisconsin girl who lives in Hawaii — she just does not fit in.

She’s blonde hair, blue eyed. She looks like she’s 12. She’s in her thirties and bubbly personality. Wonderful. And she always thought that her biggest contribution to being a part of a church is that she’s going to join the greeter ministry. Every single church that Kelsey has attended, she just went up and said, “Hi, my name’s Kelsey. I want to join the greeter ministry,” because she thought that is the best she could do, that the biggest contribution as a Jesus follower for the church. And she’s really good at it. She’s so welcoming, super hospitable. But the other things about Kelsey is that she’s a hospice care nurse, so you already know that God made her to love the seniors in our midst.

The other thing about Kelsey is that her neighborhood in Kaka Ako, her bike path to work, she goes past three different low-income senior living facilities on her way to work. If you ever go on a bike path, a cycling episode with Kelsey down that road, she’s like a celebrity. All of these aunties and uncles, all these seniors, they come out and they know her by name. She knows everybody else by name, because God has made her to really love seniors. And when we were going through a discipleship pathway, like one of the concrete things for us in our discipleship core essentials that we use in our pathway is having a heart for the one. Having a heart for the one really means, do we love the same kinds of people that God has a heart for? And God has a heart for, all over scripture, for those who are far from him and far from community, those two things are actually important. And probably one in the same to God, right — being far from God and far from community. So, we intentionally disciple and equip every single one of our disciples so that they are equipped in the ways to love those who are far from God and far from society. For these low-income seniors, they are the, probably the most, one of the most marginalized people in our midst.

Some of these folks when we’re working with them, they were, “How do you even know that we exist? We’re just like out in the shadows. We don’t have any monetary contribution to society. We’re just useless.” This is from their own words. And things like that just broke Kelsey’s heart.

So, in the beginning, she was a part of a church and she was probably a small group leader, a member of bubbly personality. She makes really good coffee too. And she was probably had one of the fastest growing small groups. She had about 30 people in her small group. Everybody loves Kelsey. They would do a Bible study, chat, rub shoulders together. It just became this wonderful social gathering.

But Kelsey just had — because I was discipling her — Kelsey just had this burning urgency in her heart that she knew God was putting there. And she knew that, what if there was a vision for these low-income senior facilities to also be a part of community, to also be discipled, because she had a heart that every single one of these seniors, we call them kupuna or our elders in Hawaiian. What if all the kupuna in this neighborhood really, really knew that they were seen and loved by Jesus?

What would happen then? That was a big question in her heart. But she was so afraid to tell her small group, this growing small group, because she was afraid. The biggest fear of people with bubbly personalities and who can do greeting ministry right, is that they’re going be rejected. She bore this for about three years.

Wow. We talked about it so much within our discipleship. And finally, one day, she mounted up the courage to invite her small group, and she wants to begin to change this so that it’ll become a missional community instead. And their whole mission will be to serve their kupuna neighbors.

When Kelsey made that invitation for this group, only five people said yes. About 25 people left. Complete rejection. It was hard. They didn’t understand why. “Why do you want to break up this group? We have a good thing going. Why are you …? Why? This is where I feel fed. This is where I feel like I am a Christian. Why are you ruining this?”

It was a really, really hard thing. Kelsey’s heart was broken because of this. But she just started with those five. It felt really humble and humbling to do it, but she started with those five. And with one, the smallest of those low-income senior facilities — 73 residents — she just started doing bingo and pizza night. What senior citizen doesn’t love to have bingo and pizza night? I cannot tell you of a one person?

And this became a robust community. There’s probably like 25 to 30 seniors coming to this — nearly a third of the entire neighborhood is coming at this point. Then, lo and behold, the pandemic hits, and lo and behold, Kelsey cries again. But this time her heart isn’t broken because we can’t stream a service for these seniors. Her heart is broken because she hears stories about these kupuna – think about March, April of 2020. They’re going and taking the public bus to go to the local food bank to pick up two cans of food to put in their pockets because that’s all they can carry, take the bus again. And they’re doing this on a regular basis. They go in and close their doors because they’re so scared. That’s what broke Kelsey’s heart and that’s what broke her discipleship for those fine folks’ heart.

So, during the pandemic, and this grew throughout for the three years for the pandemic here in Hawaii, we were able to provide one month worth of groceries every single month for every single resident, not just in that one low-income senior living facility, but in all three on that bike path that Kelsey went through years ago. And that amounts of 500 people.

We did that for three years. And it didn’t stop there. Seven years later now we have discipleship cores in every single one of those living facilities. They’re not the disciples in those — we just call them neighborhoods because they are. They’re not volunteers. They’re not young volunteers. They’re the seniors. They’re the kupuna. They’re made up of people of the age of 65 and older.

For one of them, most of them are octogenarians. And so, our urgency in discipleship has changed. We know that we only have five years with them — five years where these people are being discipled for their meaningful Christlike character, theology, wisdom, and missional living.

Yes, octogenarians can live as sent people also because God assumes that of them. You know what’s happened in these neighborhoods now? Where once it felt like prison, because everybody would have their doors closed, everyone’s suspicious of one another, there’s no resources, now it’s like a college dorm when you go visit all these places. Every single door is open. And when one person gets a box of goods, they share it amongst themselves. Auntie down the hall, she needs more toilet paper than I do, so I give them that. Or the hottest commodity is the nori packets, right, or the rice, right? Everyone’s sharing now.

This all happened because Kelsey felt like her discipleship and imitating Jesus meant that she’s going to face rejection. Overturn her own assumptions and really, really bank on, that if she centers discipleship, then actually the behavior of her own people would change to also include her kupuna neighbors and that they can also be discipled and change their neighborhoods. Centering discipleship does this.

[00:16:33] Cara: Thank you for sharing that. That’s a beautiful story and I just don’t have anything more to say than that. That’s just beautiful. I understand why you said that you might cry. The power of that willingness to challenge those assumptions and facilitate those and embrace those changes.

Change is scary. But look what happens. I’m wondering then now for those in our congregations that are established and that are seeking to embrace and live their own stories like that, what kind of recommendations or encouragement or advice would you give to them as they surrender and transform their assumptions and structures and then resulting behaviors to centralize discipleship?

[00:17:34] Eun: That’s such a good question. My biggest advice after all of those things, right after the humble work of reassessing, all those kinds of stuff, when you get to a point for, especially for established churches and heritage churches, my biggest recommendation is don’t unleash this new program of new pathways of discipleship. I’d say just start small.

Find the Kelseys in your midst. Guess who’s actually going to be the disciple makers? It’s going to be them? Guess who are — you need more examples of mature disciples apart from just you? And so, find the Kelseys within your midst and clarify discipleship with them.

I think there are three different identifying markers for who inherited or established church leaders should probably do this experimental first of first kind of discipleship core within their already established churches. It’s the kinds of folks who have decision-making power in your church. It’s probably the elders or leadership team folks. Not every single person has to do it, but somebody, some folks who are able to make decisions, they’re already empowered to do that.

Folks who have relational authority in the church — you know who I’m talking about. It’s social influencers within your church context. Whenever they have a party, people come and have a good time. But they are also the people most trusted to feel loved by people. So, folks who have relational authority.

And then the last group of people are those who have what I call scriptural authority. It’s the folks who you know they’re the go-to-people, where they’re the folks who have been the holy people, the people who are the elders of elders?

I would make a group of folks who have those kinds of authority within the reality of your church today if you really want to do this well.

That fourth category are the folks who are already being sent out. They’re probably not the folks who are the most involved in church. They’re probably the most involved in your community or neighborhood. If you really want a challenge, include and invite those people as your first of first. As you work out your discipleship pathway, what it could look like in your localized setting, those kinds of things, include these people from the get go, so that as you begin to multiply different discipleship cores, these bounded sets within your local church, these folks also have great input into what those discipleship pathways are going to look like. And then you will have already made these disciple makers who are going to be leading these discipleship cores in the future.

[00:20:24] Cara: I really like that advice, too, in our setting especially. One of the things and tools that we work with is The Five Voices. And in terms of change management, one of the things that a lot of our listeners will know is that in change management, wanting to do one of the recommendations is to do like test runs or trial runs or start small, as you’re saying, because that helps to build the bridge for those who maybe need to see tangibly some examples of this preferred vision or future that we’re moving towards. And so, to do that and start small with this first discipleship core, that is also strategic, with who is invited into that, versus saying okay, now we’re like topsy-turvying the whole structure of this church that has existed for the last 50 years.

Eun: Yes.

Cara: It is kind, I think, to do it in that way.

[00:21:49] Eun: I do work also in the UK for centering discipleship with the Church of England, Church of Scotland. And these are churches that have been around for over a thousand years. Yes, it is extremely kind not to flip everything around for the whole parish neighborhood. It’s unkind if we were to do that. So, how do you begin to lovingly, compassionately, but also strategically think through how to start small?

[00:22:05] Cara: No, that I think is a great word of advice to end our series on, listeners. I hope, and I pray that through this mini-series, through your engagement with the book and hopefully a book club/book study cohort that you are able to find yourself at a place where you are considering and planning and doing the work to start small in centering discipleship in your local church context. Again, if you haven’t yet had an opportunity to read the book. There will be a link in the show notes for today’s episode. So, go ahead and check that out there.

And, keep an eye out for Eun’s upcoming release this fall of 2025: You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone: The Power of Sharing Leadership. Pre-orders are available now, if you want to be a go-getter and get ahead of the curve there. I am so thankful for your time, for your insights, for your labors of love that you have put into this book and into your consultations for churches all over the world so that we might be those that center discipleship and not just a discipleship that we don’t understand or can’t touch and feel and smell, but one that is, clarified one, one that is real livable in community.

So, thank you so much for joining us on the GC podcast. It is our practice to end our episodes in a word of prayer. And so, could I ask you to pray for our listeners and leaders, members, and neighborhoods across GCI?

[00:24:11] Eun: I would love to. And thank you so much for having me.

Jesus. I just thank you, thank you, thank you. I thank you that you are with and close and near to every person who is listening here, to every single person who’s engaged in these mini-series for every minister and lay leader and congregant and disciple of Jesus all around the world through this ministry. I just pray that whatever may burning in folks as they listened, whatever may feel like a challenge or a comfort, whatever may be some confusion, I pray that you will be tending to them. I love that you know that discipleship is important, that this is what you centered your entire ministry on.

I love that you banked on the flourishing of your kingdom to come for your disciples, not through programs or certain kinds of leaders, but you just asked and called just regular folk. And we’re all regular folk who are transformed into these beautiful, wise, full of character, full of your wisdom, full of your sentness, full of your ways of thinking and loving and decision-making because we become more and more like you, Jesus. Beautiful. Full in every way.

So, I just pray that as we, as leaders have courage to center discipleship in all of our churches and communities, that we’ll do it with such love and care that you have shown to us. In your good name, we pray, amen.

[00:26:04] Cara: Amen. Until next time y’all keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thanks for listening to the GC podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on the topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org.

The post Discipleship Structures w/ Dr. Rev. Eun Strawser Pt 3 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Discipleship Pathways w/ Dr. Rev. Eun Strawser Pt.2

Welcome to the GC Podcast. This year, we’re centering on Kingdom Culture and exploring how it transforms ministry and equips leaders for kingdom living. Through conversations with Grace Communion Seminary professors and a few other guests, we’ll explore how their teachings equip ministry leaders to embody kingdom values.

This is the GC Podcast, where we help you grow into the healthiest ministry leader you can be. Sharing practical insights and best practices from the context of Grace Communion International Churches. Here’s your host, Cara Garrity.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today we continue our miniseries on discipleship with our guest, Dr. Rev. Strawser, and we will be continuing our conversation on her book, Centering Discipleship: A Pathway for Multiplying Spectators into Mature Disciples.

Welcome back, and so good to have you here today.

[00:01:15] Eun: Thanks so much, Cara. You’re probably my favorite, favorite podcast interviewer by far.

[00:01:22] Cara: That’s speaking words of life to me. Oh goodness. Thank you.

For the first episode in our miniseries, you shared a lot of really helpful and meaningful insights to us about the importance of discipleship and centering discipleship. As you move further into your book, you start talking about the development of a discipleship pathway.

And so, I’m wondering, for our listeners, how does a discipleship pathway help us to make discipleship central in the lives of our church communities compared to maybe … there’s a thousand different ways to get there. But what about a specific discipleship pathway helps us to make discipleship central?

[00:02:16] Eun: Yeah, I think that it probably in writing Centering Discipleship, the pathway piece was just to help and contribute to the Big C Church now. One further step to help all of us clarify discipleship. If the biggest need today in the church is there’s such a deficiency and lack of understanding, a clear thought, a clear contribution of why discipleship is at the periphery and not center to our churches and communities and what’s the next thing that could help all of us move the needle so that discipleship is more centered in our churches. If that’s the case, then I think a pathway, which is very different from a program, is the best chance at this next sort of step for us to gain that clarity.

Pathways are different from programs because it really does allow for, it’s more like a framework than it is a prescribed structure. Frameworks helps so that there’s a lot of flexibility around it. The best example of a programmatic or more structured thing is what Alcoholics Anonymous use, where every single AA groups or substance abuse groups use the same structure, the same order, the same program that lists there. And it works. It works for AA groups all around the world.

But for discipleship to be centered within our local churches, it really is that local piece. That’s the thing that highlights why discipleship pathways should be pathways or frameworks with a lot of flexibility because it’s different from a program. Not every single thing that is going to work for one community, let’s say in Western Ghana is going to work the same and have the same expectations of fruitfulness, let’s say in Seoul, South Korea.

I’ve worked with people in both of those settings. Discipleship pathways look very, very different. It’s not just because of there’s a language difference in things, but there’s also a cultural difference and hyper-localized cultural differences that we really should have a say in what our discipleship pathways should look like.

So, a pathway and not a program is really important first. It allows for that flexibility. It also allows it so that we already have an assumption —if we all have an assumption — that every single person who encounters Jesus will not only be a follower of Jesus, will be a disciple of Jesus, but they will also be a disciple maker also along with Jesus — if that’s happening, right? We’re making disciples and making disciple makers. If that’s a given assumption that we as leaders should all have, because the Great Commission was not given to just leaders, pastors, holier people, or people who know how to read the Bible really well or pray really effectively. No! The Great Commission was given to every single imitator of Christ, right?

If that’s a going assumption in our starting point, then a framework or a pathway allows it so that every single type, learning type, personality, a developmental level, even divergent, neurodivergent folks, right, and people with different disabilities and abilities — we’re saying that everybody should have a chance at both being discipled and being disciple makers.

So, a pathway allows for that kind of flexibility. … I think the hard work, but the good work for the leader and the leaders in a faith community to really put the work into that, where it’s local, it’s flexible, it’s accessible to everybody within their community, and with an expectation that folks can use this framework and this pathway, and they can go and make disciples also.

[00:06:16] Cara: Yes. And I really appreciate that piece, that it’s something that can be used so that we are making disciples who make disciples, right? There’s something replicable about this localized, contextualized discipleship pathway that continues to multiply. It doesn’t just end with itself, right?

Yeah, I really appreciate that. And you mentioned that local aspect and kind of that contextualization, which in Grace Communion International, we have local congregations all over the world in many different contexts like you mentioned. And so, contextualization of ministry practices is something that we really have to contend with a lot. What does a good ministry practice look like in very different contexts around the world? And you tackle this in your book as well about kind of universal models of discipleship, local models of discipleship, and a little bit of what does it look like to hold the two together?

And so, what advice would you give to a church leadership that is learning to integrate those universal and those local elements of discipleship?

[00:07:41] Eun: Yeah, no, that’s a great question, Kara. I think this is the part again … doing, constructing a discipleship pathway is hard work, but good work for the leader because you’re, you are trying to hold that tension together.

Without that tension, then this is again why a lot of assimilated practices happen, or an assumption that produces colonization happens within Christianity because we hold, we don’t know how to hold that tension of both. Universally, can we identify a Jesus follower all across the world? Yes. Yes, we can. But can we not constrain them to cultural practices, but really be respectful and kind and compassionate and allow the beautiful cultures where every different local culture looks different, right? How do we hold those two things in tandem?

I think this is why again a pathway is so helpful, because those maturity markers that we talked about last time, they’re probably the things that are telling us that they, that it, we can easily identify a mature disciple of Christ anywhere in the world because they all share the same kind of maturity markers, right?

The markers aren’t trying to constrain us or confine us structurally. The markers are trying to tell us, oh, what’s the portrait of a disciple of Christ that we are trying to move towards? So, for me and these four are the ones that I boiled it down to. There’s … you could read the book and there’s a lot of scriptural backing for it.

I also love these four because you can’t tease apart one thing or another. You can’t just choose to be mature in one thing and say, that’s what makes you a mature disciple of Jesus. You have to have an interaction with all four of these maturity markers.

So, the maturity markers are that every disciple, all across the world, that they all share these four things in common. They have a Christlike character, Christlike theology, Christlike wisdom, and Christlike missional living or sent-ness. I love that they are, all four, are distinct. These are things that disciples should be equipped in.

All four of these things, increase both a spiritual competence and a social competence as followers of Jesus. But again, all four things can’t be teased apart. You can’t just have a growing character of Jesus and say you’re a loving person but not be sent out to your neighbor. You know what I mean?

Cara: Yeah.

Eun: You can’t be a person who has Christlike theology, knows a lot of things about God, but also don’t know how to navigate the complexities of culture in the world around us and not be a wise person. You need all four things, and I think these are the four things that identify a mature disciple of Jesus.

So, that’s the part where you can hold that universal piece around discipleship — the localized part, the contextualized part that’s so needed so that we contend against empire, contend against a certain power dynamic, or what the cultural setting is within our local space. The way to contend against it is actually thinking about what are our discipleship core, essentials.

What are the essential pieces in our local place that we have to address, that we have to actively, intentionally have equipping for our people in so that we know clearly people are going to actually grow to be mature disciples, have Christlike character, Christlike theology with them in sent-ness.

So, the discipleship core essentials are probably different across all different kinds of churches. Usually, in churches when I’m working with them, you can … your starting point is probably, what are your core values, what’s in your vision statement or your mission statement — those kinds of things.

Like the easiest thing is love God, love others, right? Those are very, very, very simplified discipleship core essentials. And you’re saying we want every single disciple in our local context to be equipped in loving God and loving others. Let’s say, just using it.

FYI, Cara, that’s my least favorite discipleship essentials, because I think that it’s too simplified and people don’t know how to explain it, but we’ll just work with that for now. But I know that these discipleship core essentials are actually the thing to, for my people to be equipped in, by not thinking I have great content and it’s working.

I have to see it based on, are there mature disciples in our midst? Are there people who are growing and maturing in these maturity markers of Christlike character, theology, wisdom, and missional living? Are people less anxious? Do people do conflict resolution better? Are people knowing the names of their neighbors, and inviting them with them to do life together?

Are people actually growing in patience and it’s actually being challenged? Do people have more hospitality just like Jesus? Do people, in knowing and growing and knowing about God more, begin to have their loves and their decision-making shaped by knowing and knowing God more, right?

If these things aren’t happening in our midst, then I don’t know if discipleship is really intentionally being equipped in our people.

[00:13:28] Cara: Yes. And I really appreciate a couple of things that you’ve said. One that, that those four elements of the Christlike character, theology, wisdom, missional living — they can’t be isolated from one another. There’s kind of this holisticness to growth in maturity as a disciple, and that we’re looking for the fruits and the markers of that. Assess feels like a little too rigid, but kind of like assess, right? The essentials that we’ve identified and then the tools that we’re using to exercise and develop those essentials because it’s … and you use an analogy like this or an image like this in your book of it … does it matter what process you’re going through if the fruit that you’re looking for, isn’t there, in terms of, if you’re watering a tree or a plant, right? You could do all the quote unquote right things, but if it doesn’t bear the fruit that you’re looking for, like obviously something needs to change. Or we could just stay stubborn, right?

[00:14:54] Eun: Absolutely, Cara. I wish so much that I was a green thumb, but I do not. My entire family makes fun of me, because every potted plant or propagated plant … I’m so delighted because I’m like, this is the chance that I have! I can grow something! That’s what I’m say, but I just can’t, because I do the process wrong. For whatever reason, I over water certain plants. I don’t know. I don’t know anything about it, right? But I do know that my process is not working. My pathway is not working. The things that, then, are essential are not working because these plants keep withering and dying.

Cara: Yes.

Eun: And I think it’s okay for us as Christians to be able to say words like assessment, testing. We should test, it’s in the Bible, right? Even God says, “Test me. I’m okay. I can withstand that, right? I love you. This is the kind of relationship we have. Please test me. If you’re not sure. Test me.” So, if that’s a culture that’s already scripturally-based, why shouldn’t we?

We shouldn’t be afraid or embarrassed or ashamed to test ourselves. I want this thing to work. It’s really important to me that discipleship is central to the life of my church, because why? Because King Jesus being worshiped, meaning that every single follower of Jesus in my local context want to make decisions to reorient everything and every part of their life: decision-making, how they love, who they invite, who they think are insiders, outsiders, how they use their money, how they use their time, all that kind of stuff. That’s what worship means, right? So, discipleship is important because discipleship is ultimately saying that will Jesus followers actually put King Jesus at the center of their lives, at the center of their entire community?

I want that tested. That’s really important to me. So, why shouldn’t we have some assessments to say, is that really happening? Is King Jesus concretely, without a shadow of a doubt being worshiped with their whole lives, with the totality of their whole lives, meaning their characters are being transformed, their theology is being transformed, their wisdom is being sharpened, their missional living is being actually lived out.

If those four things aren’t happening, I want it tested within my local community because I want somebody to tell me concretely, if Jesus, King Jesus is being centered within my local context.

[00:17:25] Cara: Yes. No, that’s a good word, to not shy away from that testing, because are we taking seriously the thing that we’re looking for?

But I do, I really love that analogy with the plants, because I’m the same, I’ve been learning for years and it’s just, I use all the different processes and sometimes the same processes on different plants, and one plant will end up dead and the other thrives, and it’s just like … I think that’s so relevant to, are we committed to the processes, the things that we’re doing, the tools and things like that? Is that where our commitment lays, or like you said, is our commitment to Jesus and growing in his likeness.

And I think if that’s where commitment lies, then the other things can be changed in order to bear the fruit of the thing that we’re actually committed to. I’m actually committed to this plant being alive, so I can move it to a different window so that it doesn’t die. So, I’m wondering just as we’re talking about, like you said, it’s a hard and really important work to put together a discipleship pathway. What would your kind of word of encouragement be to a church leadership as they take their first step in doing this good work?

[00:18:57] Eun: Yeah, I think two things for the pastors who are leading in an inherited church or an established church — my biggest advice is that your expectation for timing is not going to be the same as a church plant. So, when I do work with inherited church churches and church leaders, I just tell them probably it’s going take about three years — three years to begin to center discipleship more. And you can plan those things out, right?

You have so much more say about structures and restructuring and taking an inventory of where there is an environment where this would work, all those kinds of stuff. Those are really good ground-tooling work. Because number two is your job. Your primary job in your leadership role is actually to not just preach or not just fill seats in services, right? It’s really to love and lead these people that God has given you to lead and love, right? So, if that is a starting point, have a clear, realistic expectation of how long it takes. Probably about three years to do this good work intentionally.

But the second thing really is, you begin with the people that God has given you. Sometimes leaders get really frustrated. A senior pastor would like read something like Centering Discipleship, feel really gung-ho about it, and then start something, and nothing happens, right? But in order for us to lead and love our people that God has already given us, I would already assume that God also thinks and believes and loves these people, that all of these people right now can also be discipled, right?

That is God’s assumption of them also. Therefore, it’s our assumption of our people, too. And to consider what is the thing that’s holding them back. Probably it’s because change is just hard for people in general. So, the way to love, and that’s included within those first three years, is to really, really address and help people and shepherd people through … There are two reasons why people are so hesitant to change: it’s because they feel like they’re losing things, so they experience loss, or they feel like they’re going to get lost in the thick of it. What tender things to have to bear with people?

And a preface, and a dress, a name for people, right? It’s a really loving thing to do and leading people well. I love Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and I always nickname him Dietrich Bonfire because he gives a fiery word, right, to leaders? And he writes a lot about a care for our people. And part of the thing is going to be, if we be as leaders, begin to complain about our people, then I don’t know if we should be leading. And he also further says, if we begin to complain about our people to God, then, I for sure don’t know if we should be leading.

So, the first place is you start with the people God has given you to lead and love. It’s your job to do that as leaders. And then second, have a really clear, realistic expectation of how long this takes in inherited especially established inherited churches — about three years.

[00:22:25] Cara: I really appreciate what you’ve had to share with us in this episode. Again, for our listeners, I encourage you to read this book, Centering Discipleship: A Pathway for Multiplying Spectators into Mature Disciples. There’ll be a link in the show notes. Take a look at the GCI Equipper as well for information about a book club so that you can go through this material with a cohort of your peers to learn a little bit more and wrestle through what it would look like to live this out.

And, if you’re not so much of a reader, go ahead and check out the audio book. She narrates herself and it is a wonderful listen. Any way you’ve got to do it, I encourage you to get ahold of this material and go through it with your team, with your peers, and really begin to wrestle with this work of building a discipleship pathway.

Until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thanks for listening to the GC podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on the topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org.

The post Discipleship Pathways w/ Dr. Rev. Eun Strawser Pt 2 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Foundations of Discipleship w/ Dr. Rev. Eun Strawser

Welcome to the GC Podcast. This year, we’re centering on Kingdom Culture and exploring how it transforms ministry and equips leaders for kingdom living. Through conversations with Grace Communion Seminary professors and a few other guests, we’ll explore how their teachings equip ministry leaders to embody kingdom values.

This is the GC Podcast, where we help you grow into the healthiest ministry leader you can be. Sharing practical insights and best practices from the context of Grace Communion International Churches. Here’s your host, Cara Garrity.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today we dive back into our 2025 theme of kingdom culture through exploring discipleship. In our efforts to explore discipleship, I am so honored to have Dr. Reverend Strawser join us to discuss her book, Centering Discipleship, A Pathway for Multiplying Spectators into Mature Disciples.

Eun Strawser is the co-vocational lead pastor of Ma Ke Ala o, non-denominational missional communities multiplying in Honolulu, and was a community physician at Ke Ola Pono. She is the founder of IWA Collaborative, a consulting and content developing firm to empower kingdom grounded leaders to navigate, change, grow adaptive capacity, and foster local flourishing.

Prior to transitioning to Hawaii, she served as adjunct professor of medicine at the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine and of African Studies at her alma mater, the University of Pennsylvania, where she and her husband served with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, and after finishing her Fulbright Scholarship at the University of Dar es Salaam.

She is the author of the book that we’re going to explore today, as well as her upcoming book, You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone, with pre-orders available now. The book will be released this fall of 2025.

Thank you so much for joining us today. I am so happy to have you as our guest.

Eun: Cara. You are the best hype person. I’d like to just carry you around with me everywhere I go. You did the best intro. You did the best intro.

[00:02:41] Cara: I would love that. I would love to be your hype woman. Before we jump in and explore some follow up questions that expound on your book, I’m wondering what prompted you to write this book.

[00:03:00] Eun: Yeah, I think that even as you folks at Grace Communion are even thinking about this theme for this whole year of 2025, I think in it, and how you’re describing it, in it already, I think, defines why something like Centered Discipleship needs to be put on the map, because you folks are trying to think: What does kingdom culture look like as we explore discipleship?

I think that word exploring, exploration, means that we’re not certain about things. It’s not discovered yet. It’s not clear or concrete yet, and I just think that it’s such a deficiency in the church today that discipleship is a word that is thrown around. We use it. It’s over-generalized. There’s a multitude of definitions under it.

And because there isn’t a certainty or a clarity for Christians, and Christian leaders in particular, I think that there is such a deficit of discipleship in the church today.

[00:03:57] Cara: I am so glad that you did choose to put your efforts into writing this book. I think that it is so relevant, so helpful. And I am really looking forward to the additional insights that you have to offer to our listeners today.

So, one of the first questions that I have for you is, in the book you do talk about centering discipleship, of course. And so, I’m wondering, can you describe for us the difference between central and peripheral discipleship that you talk about at the start of your book?

[00:04:32] Eun: Yeah, sure. This is such a primer because I want to preface it by saying, okay, I do really, really, really believe in the priesthood of all believers. I sincerely believe that. But I think that in how we people, human beings, do life, we have to consider what is the leaders’ or the leadership role in how structures work, systems work, organizations, what we focus on, what we emphasize, how invitation moves, what visions are there in the life of a church or a faith community.

I think because there isn’t a clarity around discipleship in general, we can probably have a better starting point that there isn’t a clarity or a stronger vision for discipleship to be central to our ministry, central to our churches or our faith communities. And that’s why it’s kept at the periphery.

If you think about what are probably the three things that are on the leaders’ plates to do that nobody else can really do this for the leader. It’s not the thing that the leader can easily delegate out. It’s three things. It’s what the leader emphasizes. Which is usually where all resources, time, finances, even leadership pipelines, go towards whatever it is a leader or a leadership set emphasizes.

The second is invitation. No matter how much people will say that this is not true. It is true. Whatever the leader does the invitation for something, more often than not, people will follow and come. Right? And so, there’s [inaudible] an invitation. And then, the last thing, on vision. It’s a leader’s job to cast a vision and be a broken record about the vision for the community, for the church.

Whenever I do a lot of work around centering discipleship with church plants, inherited churches, Christian organizations, things like that, and I can walk in and ask questions around those three things. And I can tell you immediately if a discipleship is at the periphery of the organization or community or if it’s in the center because of those three things.

[00:06:52] Cara: What are some of those questions that you ask?

[00:06:55] Eun: Yeah. For instance, around the invitation, it’s really questions around: what do you really invite your people to? What do your people actually invite people to? If the bulk of the invitation is — if your people feel like they can give themselves a pat on the back, a sigh of relief because they finally got to invite their friend or neighbor or coworker or family member to attend your Sunday morning worship service. And they’re just like clapping, brushing off their hands and being like, okay, check, now I’m a good Christian, because I made that invitation.

If that is the thing that’s most rewarded, if that’s the invitation that’s most rewarded, probably it’s because we’re assuming that any sort of semblance of discipleship, (and that clarity piece is so important, right?) we’re probably saying that the best chance that people get at understanding what it is to imitate Jesus clearly is going to happen at a worship service. Versus, if discipleship is centered, then I know that everybody would already understand that discipleship is best lived out in practice. So, practicing discipleship, living like Jesus, actually doesn’t happen in a once-a-week Sunday morning worship service, right?

It happens out in the community, in real life, in neighborhoods, in households, at workplaces, in schools, right? That’s where it’s happening. So, wherever the invitation is strongest, I know that discipleship is either center or peripheral.

[00:08:38] Cara: Yeah, that’s a great example. Thank you for sharing that with us.

[00:08:42] Eun: Yeah. Another, I think, important thing is that vision question. I think that leaders assume that their vision is really clear, but I think that we can test it out by asking our people what is the vision of our community or our church? And if your people can’t recite it clearly, then we’re probably not being as clear as we assume that we are.

I think the second thing around vision is my favorite question is asking the leader, okay. In five years from now what do you hope or imagine your church or your faith community to be like, to look like, to smell like, to sound like, to act like — all those kinds of questions, right?

And most of the time, when leaders depict in five years … and I love that five-year mark. It’s so short enough that there’s realistic practical pieces that we could set in place now. But it’s not, and it’s not far enough that it’s some dream, like a thing that, that we can dream too big around. So, in five years, what will your … what do you hope your church to be like?

If leaders are answering that essentially that the church itself will experience multiplication or growth? If that’s the only conversation around it, and if they’re not including the flourishing of their community that the church resides in, or the neighborhood the church resides in, then I know that again, discipleship is at the periphery and not center.

[00:10:11] Cara: Thank you. Those are, I think, helpful places for us to even start reflecting in our own context and kind of start making those assessments about where are we at in our kind of expressions and practices of discipleship in our local churches.

And I’m wondering … a lot of times when we think about discipleship, we can feel like it is something that maybe is meant to be organic or just, maybe not quite “go with the flow” but maybe something that …

Eun: … like Spirit-led …

Cara: Yes. And maybe some of our listeners have maybe a reaction, a visceral reaction to this idea of identifying markers of discipleship. And so, I’m wondering what difference have you seen it make when we do identify markers of discipleship?

[00:11:12] Eun: Yeah, it’s like a really good exercise to run through. The best example I can give for this through story is my family and I, we moved, I was born in South Korea. My family moved to West Philly. I did all my upbringing, I fell in love, got married, had my three babies — all in Philly —and then we moved to Hawaii. Philly was a lot of training grounds for my own ministry, how I see Jesus, how I have love for people, all those kinds of things.

And I was leading in a community, a church in West Philly, and our neighbors were a pretty strong Muslim population. We were really good neighbors to one another and we did a community dinner, hosted it so that we could learn a little bit more about each other’s faith. And there were a hundred people, 50 Christians, 50 Muslim brothers and sisters, and we had a meal together.

It was wonderful. And then we went around and our Muslim neighbors were asking like, “What does it mean to be a Christian?” And so, we’re going through it, different people at the table are answering, “Well, to be a Christian means this and this…”. And at the end of the night, it was so confusing to our Muslim neighbors, because for if there were 50 Christians in the room, there are 50 different answers to what it means to be a disciple of Jesus.

Whereas when there are 50 Muslim neighbors in the room, all 50 Muslim brothers and sisters could answer the five pillars of Islam, very clearly… that that’s what their faith is anchored around. This is what it means to be, to believe in Allah, all those kinds of things. So, already it’s so confusing to other people, let alone to ourselves about what does it actually mean to be a Jesus follower.

If we don’t have clear maturity markers of what it means to be a disciple of Jesus, then I think two kinds of things happen. One, we probably will be more influenced by what the culture and our specific culture, and for us, it’s going to be contending with what Western culture says about us, and probably it’s culture that is defining what it looks like, “to be a disciple of Jesus,” which usually just means, like a nice person who doesn’t want to challenge anything, and attend church. I think on the far other extreme, if we allow our culture to define what discipleship is and not what Jesus sets as maturity markers, that there is a picture, a portrait of what it looks like to be a very visible, recognizable, mature, follower of Jesus all around the world that’s clear to everybody, then the other thing that could happen, because culture is going to set that pace, is assimilation, which is just a PC word for a canonization. And Christian history has already experienced that and continues to experience that. So, I think that the action for why I think that, and why I think leaders should be thinking about that, if we don’t clarify discipleship, and have clear markers around it — it’s not a structure thing — it’s a way to contend against a current culture today.

[00:14:37] Cara: I like that. That’s really helpful to think about why it matters, to identify that, and not just have almost like a fluffy answer of or an unclear answer of, “Well, it just means growing in Christlikeness.”

Sure. That’s great, but what does that actually look like? What does that mean in the real life of a people in a community. That’s really helpful.

One of the other things that you describe on the earlier chapters of your book is this distinction between centered and bounded sets. And I’m wondering both how that helps us as a framework to center discipleship and what makes bounded sets a suitable setting for this discipleship core that you discussed throughout your book.

[00:15:37] Eun: Yeah. Yeah. I’m going to change around some words just because I think it’s more helpful for folks who may not be sociologists in the room, which is pretty much most people.

Yeah, I think that it really is trying to think about what happens in a room when you’re trying to intentionally equip — which is really discipleship, right? We’re trying to intentionally equip and provide spaces and environments for people to have the best chance at really clarifying what it means to imitate Jesus.

If discipleship, in a nutshell, to be as clear as possible, means that a person is imitating Jesus intentionally, actively, within a community — that we don’t believe as Christians that it is a privatized faith, that it happens and is worked out within relationship, within a community — then two things should be happening. Every single person should be actively, intentionally growing and maturing in both their spiritual confidence, but it has to be tethered to their social competence. Meaning that, spiritual competence, meaning what’s the thing that’s forming their identity. They know God. They’re growing in knowing God and loving God. They’re growing in being known and being loved by God. What happens in a person’s identity becomes transformed in that manner?

For the Christian, if you’re imitating Jesus, how you know and love God needs to be tethered to how you live in the world, right? If you know God and love God, then you also need to live like God in the world. You can’t have just one or the other. The flip side, I think in thinking about it that way is that people can’t just be really great at social competence, but not be great at spiritual competence, right? They can’t be people who are just do-gooders, but their motivation comes from someplace else, not anchored in an identity in Christ, right?

So, you have to do both of these things. So, in order for that equipping, and in our culture, where it’s hard to be clear about discipleship and the work is just to clarify what that means in our local context, in our local churches, then there has to be an intentionality to equip a group of people.

So, the bounded set is really just a discipleship core for us. And this can look like a variety of ways, but in the book, Centering Discipleship, it really is a love letter to my church, that the way that we wanted to do it was, I just had 15 people that first year make a commitment. They already love Jesus. They’re making a commitment to love one another and to begin to love of some sort of identified space of mission. So that, that bounded set was, with these 15 folks intentionally going through a discipleship pathway together intentionally being equipped in the ways of Jesus. So, their spiritual competence and their social competence are also being Christ-like.

And then that centered set is really just like the practice space. How do we know that this formation piece is really working? Unless there is practice happening, there’s a practice space where people can actually, like, make mistakes, right? To have the freedom to make mistakes join together in doing work that’s not just alone work to do, right? People can say in formation spaces, oh my goodness, I am being transformed by Jesus because I am growing in patience. You can share that all you want, right?

But you never really, really know if a person is really growing in Christ-like character in the form of patience, unless you see an impatient situation happening. Is that person actually showing that this kind of fruit, this kind of maturity marker of deep patience, a longsuffering with others and for others, you won’t know it until it’s practiced out, until it’s worked out. So, for me, that founded set is really that, that protected, guarded space where people have the space to be equipped, but that centered set is just as important to be tethered to that bounded set because it’s the practice space. It’s the living space for the disciple within that community.

[00:19:54] Cara: Yes. Thank you. That is really helpful and I really love thinking about that centered set as that practice space where we’re really living out what we are saying that we’re being transformed in.

I think that’s, I always to think about that, like, as are we putting flesh on what we’re saying? We’re learning. And so, thinking about being intentional about are we living this out together, I think, is really important. So, I love that you have that as a key aspect of the process of discipleship. And also, …

[00:20:39] Eun: For all the folks who feel like, oh, discipleship should be organic, or you know, that is structured, trust me, it’s that practice space that, that puts that flesh, like you were saying, Cara, to how it’s flexible, it’s organic. You get … it’s unpredictable, like all those things are really happening, but you’re trying to clarify, so that people can pay attention to it, right?

That’s the bounded sets job — you’re trying to help people to pay attention to it, focus on it, put attention to it, prioritize it — to only want people of Jesus to want to prioritize their imitation of Jesus. We want that to happen. We’re just saying that centered set is like how we’re going to live it out.

[00:21:23] Cara: I love that. I really appreciate what you have shared with us so far and I’m praying for our listeners that this importance of really bringing to the center discipleship and what it looks like to begin to shift our, not just our viewpoint and our mindsets about discipleship in our church context, but also what it can begin to look like, to start shifting our practices and our structures is something that we begin to start reflecting on and chewing on.

I, for all of our listeners, want to encourage you if you haven’t already, to please read Ms. Strawser’s book that we are exploring, again called, Centering Discipleship: A Pathway for Multiplying Spectators into Mature Disciples. You will see a link in our show notes in order to purchase that if you would like a copy of it for yourself.

And keep an eye out in the GCI Equipper for some additional information about a book club for this book, so that you can, along with a cohort of your peers, engage with this further and see, really tangibly, what it would look like to engage this centering of discipleship in your local context.

And thank you so much for sharing with us today. And folks, until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thanks for listening to the GC podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on the topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us info@gci.org.

The post Foundations of Discipleship w/ Dr. Rev. Eun Strawser Pt 1 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Discipleship and Christian Ethics Pt 3 w/ Dr. Dennis Hollinger

Welcome to the GC Podcast. This year, we’re centering on Kingdom Culture and exploring how it transforms ministry and equips leaders for kingdom living. Through conversations with Grace Communion Seminary professors and a few other guests, we’ll explore how their teachings equip ministry leaders to embody kingdom values.

This is the GC Podcast, where we help you grow into the healthiest ministry leader you can be. Sharing practical insights and best practices from the context of Grace Communion International Churches. Here’s your host, Cara Garrity.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today we are thrilled to have Dr. Dennis Hollinger with us one more time to close out our miniseries on Christian ethics. Welcome Dr. Hollinger.

Dennis: Thank you so much, Cara. It’s been a joy to be, part of these various episodes.

Cara: Yes. Thank you. And as I just mentioned GC Podcast, one of the purposes for this podcast is to explore best ministry practices. How are we participating in ministry?

And so, for this final episode, I want to explore how the pieces that you’ve built up for us in the previous two episodes, how Christian ethics and ministry practice, how do they work together and how are our ministry practices maybe better informed by a Christian ethic?

And so, I’m just wondering to start with, what does a Christian ethic have to do with the life and ministry of a local congregation?

[00:01:51] Dennis: Thank you for that question. I would say for starters; we have to first of all understand that the church and a local congregation are vitally important to the Christian life.

When we come to Christ, we’re not called to be lone rangers. We’re called into a community. We become part of the body of Christ when we come to Christ. You have no choice when you come to Christ, whether it be in the church or not. You are in the body of Christ when you come to Christ. And so, I think that’s vital to understand that God has always called out a people who are together, not isolated.

That was true in the Old Testament. He called the Hebrew people to be his people, as a people, not lone-range individuals. And then you come to the New Testament and what happens? He calls out, first of all, a group of people. They weren’t highly educated. They weren’t impressive people at one level, but he called out these 12 disciples, one who actually turned his back against him.

And that was the beginning of the church. And we have the book of Acts and we see the vitality of the church. We have the epistles giving guidance to the church. And so, I just want to say that, at the beginning, the church is vital to the Christian life. And then, Christian ethics is vital in that church, in a local congregation.

A lot of people have asked me what do I think is the most important thing for the church today? And my response has been that we need to hold together truth and love, both truth and love.

It’s interesting in the first chapter of the Gospel of John. It talks about Christ as the logos who came into the world. How did he come? And this is repeated two times he came full of grace. And he came full of love and truth, if you will. And I think that is so vital in local congregations. We must be committed to the truth, both for our spiritual lives, but for our Christian ethics as well. When churches deviate from the truth of God’s word, the truth of the gospel, it impacts their ethics.

And I think we’re seeing this today in a lot of churches that have become wayward from the gospel, have moved away from the Word. We see it in many arenas, but perhaps nowhere is it clear than in sexual ethics where we have where people have changed the designs of God that go back to creation.

And so, I think we need to understand that today in the life of a congregation, we need both truth and love. I think this is so well summarized in 1 John 3:16–18.

This is how we know what love is. Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. We ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need, he has no pity on them. How can the love of God be in that person? Dear children, let us not love with words or speech, but with actions and in truth.

In other words, love needs to be manifested. It needs to be demonstrated. Here, it’s talking about caring for those in the church, but other texts throughout scripture, it also talks about caring for the poor who are outside the church. But what I love about this verse 18, it’s with actions and in truth. It’s truth, love that go together. And so, I think when we think about congregational life, and those of you who are in leadership or who are helping to shape and to form and to mold congregations, it’s holding that dual commitment together. In truth and in love. I think those two things are just vital for today.

[00:06:06] Cara: Yes. Thank you. And I really appreciate your point about the local congregation is so critical to the Christian life, right? That we don’t really even have a choice to be part of the church as followers, in that sense.

[00:06:23] Dennis: It really is. And one of the things that I think happened during COVID is of course a lot of churches could not meet during that time. And a lot of people have not come back to the church. I’ve seen some data recently just on the number of people who are operating as Christians outside of a local church. A lot of people just tune in and sometimes they tune into different churches but not, are not meeting face-to-face with people. And I think we’ve really lost something in that.

[00:06:55] Cara: Yeah, and wanting to, again, I think that these more holistic approaches speak to that, right? Because if we’re thinking about ourselves as disciples and members of the church and living out a Christian ethic, heads, hands, and heart, right? Then we have to do that in community, right?

Dennis: Yeah, exactly.

Cara: We’re not able to, if you’re just tuning in, like you said, that’s maybe emphasizing just the head and maybe not those other aspects. So, I think that is so important. And I really appreciate that you mentioned that. And I think that’s a good reminder for our members, our leaders, the neighbors in our local congregational settings that, “You guys, you are designed to need each other.”

Dennis: Exactly.

Cara: “And so let’s do this together.” And so, I’m wondering, you mentioned, in terms of Christian ethics being lived out in the life of a congregation, as you holding together the truth and the love — how do you see it influencing ministry priorities and decisions about ministry practices?

[00:08:03] Dennis: Yes. So helpful question. I think it’s very important as we think about our ministry practices and our priorities, that we emphasize proclamation — I’m thinking here of the mission of the church outwardly — both proclamation of the gospel, and what sometimes is called Christian presence, which has to do with our actions and our character in the world.

We need both of those. We need to proclaim the gospel clearly to a hurting world. They need to hear the good news of Jesus Christ, that salvation is not found in our wealth. It is not found in our positions. It’s found in Jesus Christ. And we also need to then demonstrate that by our presence, by our actions of mercy and justice and love in the world.

That’s where we, and my first response here today was holding truth and love together, the truth of the gospel. But then love demonstrated, and I think there’s a great need for both. Many people can never hear the gospel because of our actions, our lack of actions, or wrong actions.

And it’s so important that if we don’t have a demonstration of Christian ethics in our lives in the congregation, there are a lot of people that are just going to turn away from the church. I think it’s important to remember that when people reject the Christian faith, it’s not just rejecting the message, it’s often rejecting what they observe about the church, things they see in the church or things that are lacking in the church.

And so, what this means, I think, is when we think about mission and missional leaving living, it means that we need to incorporate both evangelism and acts of mercy and justice in our mission. And of course that’s sustained by good teaching in the church. It’s sustained by strong spiritual formation in the church.

But it means that as we live out our life missionally in the life of a local congregation, we do it with a commitment to truth and to love, and we do it with a recognition that it must be a proclamation of the gospel. And a Christian presence by our actions in the world itself.

[00:10:34] Cara: Thank you. And that, that Christian presence and as you mentioned with the missional living aspect of the life of a local congregation of the church, kind of big C Church, I think that aspect of bringing that presence beyond how we sometimes say it, right? Like beyond the four walls of the church, is so important and so I appreciate that you mentioned that missional living as part of what that looks like, how it shapes priorities and practices it, because as you were speaking, I hear that a local congregation is necessary, right?

Dennis: Yeah, absolutely.

Cara: To be engaged in the neighborhood and the community as an integral part of living out a Christian ethic. Especially when we going all the way back to episode one, come back to creation.

Dennis: Yes.

Cara: And whose image we were created in. It’s not … missional living is, I guess, one of those things that we see is also not optional, right?

Dennis: Exactly.

Cara: Yeah, so I’m wondering, can you give us maybe, one example of what that can look like in maybe the neighborhood. In GCI, we, right now, are focusing on missional living in the neighborhood where we’re able to spend most of our time, and our life rhythms already are, where we — one of the things you say sometimes is — where we live, work, and play.

Dennis: Yeah.

Cara: So, it’s already where we are going, already where we’re naturally being sent by our life rhythm. So how are we being sent within that sent-ness, right? So, what would you say is an example of what that can look like?

[00:12:12] Dennis: I would say one of the things we have to do as our homework in analyzing our communities, like what are the needs in our community? And I don’t think one size fits all here.

Cara: Yes.

Dennis: The church we’re part of, one of the things that happened during COVID was that everything went online. But we’re not too far from a neighborhood that’s fairly poor and a lot of people could not get online to do their schoolwork. And so, there were about four or five months where people, basically, they were supposed to be online every day and some of them would try to go down outside of a restaurant or a public place so they could try to get online because they didn’t have internet connection in their home. They couldn’t afford internet connection. And so, they were falling behind in school.

So, one of the things we did was, we opened up our church. Young people, I think it was from middle school and high school, to come to the church to be able to get online. Tutors there — most of these were retired folks who would then work with them to try to catch them up in their schoolwork.

Now, that was a tremendous demonstration of love, and truth coming together. And I think that’s a very good practical example. Look at your neighborhood and see what are the needs. It may be educational needs. It may be economic needs. It may be needs for addressing certain tensions within the community.

The early church had to wrestle with this. One of the tensions they dealt with early on is they were bringing two different racial groups into the Body of Christ — Jews and Gentiles. They had a long history of hating each other, of prejudice. And so, in Ephesians 2, a great chapter that we come to Christ by faith, but then it is to be demonstrated in works.

And what was the first thing that Paul addressed? Overcoming the racial-ethnic divide. The old walls have been broken down in Jesus Christ. And I think in many communities today, we need to work on that — breaking down the walls of ethnicity and racism. And that’s so vitally important. And this is all going put us sometimes in tension with the world.

And one of the passages I don’t know that we have. How are we doing on time, Cara? I can mention this passage, if I have a few minutes …

[00:14:35] Cara: Yes, please go ahead and do.

[00:14:35] Dennis: John 17. You know the whole section in John 14 to 17 is a prayer of Jesus with his disciples. This is the very end before he goes to the cross. He gives them a lot of teaching about discipleship and what their life is going be once he’s gone.

And in chapter 17, he has this incredible prayer that portrays the tensions they were going to experience with Roman culture. And it’s so prevalent for us today. The tensions we’re going to experience with whatever culture you find yourself in. Let me just read a little bit to you. John 17:14.

I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of that world, but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth. Your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them, I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

That is a rich, rich passage. I encourage you to ponder it. Those of you who are pastors preach on it. There are several things we find here. One is that by our lives we’re going to experience tensions with the world. Our values, our ethical commitments, our character are going to be at odds with the world around us.

“I’ve given them your word and the world has hated them.” But then interestingly, the second thing Jesus tells them is not only is there going to be tension in the world, but you’re called to stay in that world. You’re not called to leave it. That’s often the temptation. We want to just, if the world’s so bad out there, culture, society’s so bad, we just want to go into hibernation.

And Jesus said, no. “As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.” So, we’re called to live in that world. But then, we are also called to a life of distinction within it. This gets back to the Christian ethics and the ethics within a congregation that are ethical practices.

The way in which our love is demonstrated, our commitments to justice and mercy are going to be distinct. “Sanctify them by the truth. Your word is truth. For them, I sanctify myself that they too may be truly sanctified.” That means set apart, distinct. And so, we’re not going to be defined in this world by our politics. We’re not going be defined in this world by what our church looks like on the outside. We’re going be defined by what the church looks like on the inside, and its character, and its actions. I think that’s so vital as we think about holding truth and love together in the world today.

[00:17:32] Cara: Yes. Thank you for sharing that passage with us. And I appreciate what you mentioned about knowing your context and your culture.

Dennis: Yeah. Yeah.

Cara: Because I think about living out Christian ethics and having it inform ministry practice. and all of these. It’d be holistic, wider views that you’ve introduced to us of both action and character, of head, hearts, and hands, that is going to look different in each context. And I think that emphasizes why we need one another as expressions in the local congregation, because that sounds like that there’s a lot of discernment in that.

[00:18:09] Dennis: That’s right.

[00:18:09] Cara: Yeah.

[00:18:10] Dennis: Very much.

[00:18:11] Cara: Check, check, check.

[00:18:11] Dennis: Yeah. And you’re so right and you’ve given such a good summary there, Cara and I think it is just so vital that we sit, discern together.

I’ve seen sometimes in churches where one person has a vision for something that they think ought to be done, but no one else catches that, sees that. Now sometimes, they’ll catch on to the vision of one person, but we best discern together, I think, as we look at what should we be doing in our communities and how should we be doing it.

It’s not only what we should be doing, but the how is important as well, because it’s the how I think that really begins to reflect our character, our compassion, our … it’s not just the actions. But it is really how we go about carrying it out.

[00:19:00] Cara: Yeah. And I really do, encourage our listeners to, in your teams and the leadership, to go through that discerning practice, and to challenge yourselves to move beyond maybe previous conceptions of ethics and Christian ethics as maybe the one size fits all cookie cutter. Check, check, check. But to really consider these insights that Dr. Hollinger has brought to us and what that means for us as disciples, us as Christian leaders, us as those who are shaping and participating in ministry practices in missional living in our neighborhoods. I do invite you. And challenge you because that’s the summary that of what I’ve felt during these conversations is the beautiful invitation and also the challenge of what that might look like and the things that we might have to allow to be transformed and give up, and that tension that you mentioned that we might have to live within in our own context. I just encourage you to seek God in prayer one with another and see where he’s going to lead you and how you can partner in what he’s doing in your context through character and action as those who are holistic beings made in his image — head, heart, and hands.

So, Dr. Hollinger, as we wrap up our miniseries. Is there a final word that you would leave with our listeners when it comes to this very broad or very large and rich topic of Christian ethics?

[00:20:35] Dennis: Yeah, I would say to you, nurture your whole life. And I come back to, and Cara just mentioned this: the head, the heart, and the hands. Make sure that you are really discerning in these three areas and that you’re nurturing and developing all three. Because it’s all three that will keep us committed to truth and to love. It’s all three that will enable us, I think, to live the Christian in our deeply secular, deeply divided, sometimes hostile world that we face as believers and as the Church.

[00:21:12] Cara: Thank you. That’s a good word. I really like that — nurturing all of those aspects. Before we close out today for our listeners, I want to encourage you if you want to learn more, explore the insights that Dr. Hollinger has shared with us today. In the show notes for the podcast episode, there will be the titles of his works that were referenced during these podcast episodes.

So, feel free please to go ahead and look to those as additional resources as you walk into whatever the next step is that looks like for you and your leadership team in your particular local context. And with that, Dr. Hollinger, thank you so very much for joining us. This has been a very rich and beautiful conversation and I’m really encouraged by the insights that you have brought to us.

And it’s our kind of practice with GC podcast to end our shows with the word of prayer. And so, if you would, I would love if you would pray for our churches, pastors, ministry leaders, members, our neighborhoods — that we would continue to live increasingly more richly this Christian ethic that we’ve talked about today.

[00:22:29] Dennis: I’d be delighted to and Cara, again, thank you for this kind imitation it was a joy to interact with you and with your people. Let me pray for you. Gracious God, I thank you for Grace Communion International. I thank you for the way in which you have guided and directed them over these last years to be faithful to your Word, to be faithful to the gospel, and to be really committed to being a vital Kingdom ministry in the world. I pray for the pastors of churches. I pray Lord, that they will not become discouraged. I know so many pastors, Lord, are discouraged these days. Encourage them, grant them strength, grant them the courage they need. I pray for lay leaders, Lord, that you will enable them as they carry out various functions in the church, as they try to live the ethical life in their callings at business or teaching or whatever ministry, whatever vocation you’ve called them to. And I pray for the leadership of Grace Communion International. We thank you, Lord for the work that they do. Encourage them, strengthen them. And Lord, for all of us who have listened to these podcasts, we pray that you will do a work in our hearts and our minds that will be committed even more deeply to your truth and to your love. Where it is in Christ’s name we pray. Amen.

[00:24:08] Cara: Amen. That’s all for day today, folks. So, until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thanks for listening to the GC podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on the topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us@infoatgci.org.

The post Discipleship and Christian Ethics Pt 3 w/ Dr. Dennis Hollinger first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Discipleship and Christian Ethics Pt 2 w/ Dr. Dennis Hollinger

Welcome to the GC Podcast. This year, we’re centering on Kingdom Culture and exploring how it transforms ministry and equips leaders for kingdom living. Through conversations with Grace Communion Seminary professors and a few other guests, we’ll explore how their teachings equip ministry leaders to embody kingdom values.

This is the GC Podcast, where we help you grow into the healthiest ministry leader you can be. Sharing practical insights and best practices from the context of Grace Communion International Churches. Here’s your host, Cara Garrity.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to this next episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today we continue with our ethics miniseries with our guest, Dr. Dennis Hollinger. Today we’re going to be exploring the connection, the integration, the dynamic between Christian ethics and the life of a disciple, of discipleship. And so, I really appreciate you joining us again today, Dr. Hollinger. And we are looking forward to learning from you again.

Dennis: Thank you so much, Cara. It’s a joy to again be with you, and with your listeners.

Cara: Absolutely. So, from our first conversation, one of the things that I took away is, especially when you outline this as actions and character or aspects of ethics, is I can’t help but think about that’s, well, the shaping of our character, our actions is part of the life of a disciple, right? And that process of discipleship.

And so, I’m curious. Does Christian ethics have to do with the daily living, the day-to-day of being a disciple of Jesus?

[00:01:56] Dennis: That’s such a significant, important question. Thank you, Cara. Maybe it’s helpful if I start with just defining what we mean by discipleship. What is a disciple?

Jesus in the Great Commission said, “Go, or as you go, disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you.” And then a great promise, of course, comes at the end. “And lo, I am with you always till the end of the world.”

And so, the Great Commission is not to go out and make converts. It’s to make disciples. What is a disciple? I think a disciple, we understand it best, is a person who has come to Christ through faith in Christ, who’s experienced salvation and redemption in Christ, and as a result now is called to follow Christ in all arenas of life.

That means to follow Christ in our relationships, in our business if we’re in the business world, in our communities, in our churches, in our ministries, whatever we’re called to. And so, I think that when we think about a disciple a disciple is one who follows Christ. And that of course impacts the way we live.

[00:03:19] Cara: Yes, thank you. I think that is a great place to start. And can you give us some maybe examples of what this might look like in the day-to-day life of the disciple?

[00:03:32] Dennis: Yeah. I like to think of our Christian living or being a disciple as having three components, what I call the head, the heart, and the hands. And I wrote a book on about this some years ago, really, called Head, Heart, and Hands: Bringing Together Christian Thought, Passion, and Action. It’s interesting that there are a lot of Christians and there are a lot of Christian movements or denominations that accentuate one of these over the other, sometimes almost to the exclusion of others.

And let me just unpack that for us. There are some Christians who are primarily people of the head. What is discipleship for them? Well, it’s simply knowing if I have enough knowledge of the Bible, enough knowledge of Christian doctrines and theology, then I’ll be good disciple of Christ. So, when they go to a church, what do they go to church for? It’s to fill their minds. The head.

And then there are others that are primarily people of the heart. And these are people when they think about the Christian life and discipleship, think of their emotions and their will, their inner self. And a good Christian, a good disciple is one whose heart is experiencing the reality of God.

And oftentimes it’s best exemplified by, I’m moved in some way inwardly. So, these people, when they go to church, they want worship and they want sermons that move their heart, not their heads, but their heart, their inner self.

And then you have the hands people and these are the folks who say, no, the Christian life, being a disciple, is about doing in the world. And you have two components of this in a sense, two varieties of the hands Christians. You have those who emphasize the proclamation of the gospel, and you have others who say though our actions are really about our social ministries, our caring for the poor, our ministries, and actions of justice in the world.

Now what I contend is that all three of these are vitally important and they all go together. And so, the head is important. How we think is part of being a disciple. And so, our understanding of scripture, our understanding of theology, our Christian worldview is vital to being a disciple and it’s vital to Christian ethics and particularly as we talked about in the first episode.

The heart component is vitally important. We’re to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, and mind. The inner self needs to be shaped if we’re going to be a disciple and if we’re going to live the Christian ethical life.

And then the hands are vitally important. We are to be doers of the word, and that involves, I think, both the proclamation of the gospel, but also involves our ministries of service, our ministries of care, our ministries of justice in the midst of a hurting world.

And the way I like to think about this, Cara, is that they each actually impact the others. We don’t get our theology, our heads straight just by mind alone. I think our hearts and even our actions in the world help shape our thinking. And our heart, we don’t get our hearts right, just by attending to our emotions, our inner self. Our thinking shapes that. Our actions shape that.

And our hands likewise are shaped by our head and our heart. So, I like to think of all three of these coming humming together to form what is a disciple. And all three of these then are vital in Christian ethics. Christian ethics isn’t just about my hands and what I do. It incorporates that to be sure, but it’s also good to reflect what I believe, what I fill my mind with. It’s going to also reflect my heart, my inner self, and that inner union with Christ and with the Holy Spirit.

[00:07:47] Cara: Thank you. Thank you. Yes. And I, again, I think that this is, I don’t want to say the word model, but maybe an approach where we’re being invited into kind of this broader perspective, more holistic approach to discipleship, and Christian ethics has to do with that. And having that — the threefold, the head, heart, and hands — I think is a really helpful thing to even just keep in mind.

Dennis: Yeah.

Cara: As we’re living, and being, shaped as disciples. And so, one of the things in GCI that is really important for us in terms of ministry practice is the idea of healthy church rhythms and the development of healthy leadership.

[00:08:34] Dennis: Yeah.

[00:08:35] Cara: And so, when we think about, ministry practices and the primary audience of our podcast today are people who are involved in ministry participation leadership in their local church contexts. So, how does this relationship between ethics and discipleship that incorporates head, hearts, and hands, how does it inform the development of a healthy ministry leader specifically?

[00:09:01] Dennis: Yeah, that, that’s so vital today, Cara. I’m glad you’re raising this. I think we have to understand. People follow leaders.

Leadership is vital, not just in the church, but in the corporate world and the business world and the political world, in all arenas of life. Leadership is vital because people by nature follow leaders. It is interesting, if you go way back in history and the philosopher Aristotle, one of the first things he talked about in political leadership was character.

Why? Aristotle who was a pagan philosopher — this is not a Christian — said it’s important, because leaders shape the tone of a society, of a country, of a government, if you will. And this is so vital in the church. I think we know that in recent years we’ve had some very sad stories of leaders who failed in leadership, who failed in leadership over ethics.

And a lot of times, and this goes back to our last podcast where we talked about money, sex, and power. These are some of the greatest abuses of power and leadership. The abuse of money, the abuse of sex, the abuse of power, and we’ve had lots of those abuses. And so, I think what we recognize here is if the church is to be healthy in all arenas the leadership needs to be healthy as well.

And that gets back to Christian ethics and discipleship. Then, I think for example, of a passage like 1 Timothy 3, where we have a list of the characteristics of church leaders. Let me just read that, because I think it’s important for all of us to hear this, that leadership isn’t just about charisma; leadership isn’t just about my capabilities of helping a group of people achieve their mission, what they’ve set out as their stated mission. Leadership is also about my character, and my actions, which as we pointed out the last time, is really at the heart of ethics. And what we’re saying here today is also very much part of leadership.

Let me just read, if I may, Cara, the passage of 1 Timothy 3:1–10, please.

Here’s a trustworthy saying. Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness. Not violent, but gentle, not quarrelsome. Not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. For if anyone doesn’t know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s ….

And then the next couple verses, 8–10, go on to describe deacons, a second level of leadership in the church. They’re to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine and not pursuing dishonest gain. They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience.

And so, what I find so fascinating in this passage in Timothy about leadership, it’s not just about our beliefs. It’s not just that we’ve got our doctrines down pat. It’s in. And it’s not just that we’re having our devotions regularly and praying regularly, it’s also our character and our actions that reflect the reality of Christ in our lives.

And that I think is so vital for a healthy church today. Healthy leadership is so important, so that in specific churches, when you are choosing leaders in the church, not just pastors, but other lay leaders as well; yes, they must be committed to the theology and the statements that you have as a church. But they all … you also need to look at what kind of people are they, what kind of respect have they garnered in the church, in their community, in their world. I think that’s so vital today, if the church is really to maintain faithfulness.

[00:14:03] Cara: Yes. Thank you. And again, I feel really compelled by naming that it’s more than just maybe … we can tend towards what do we believe? Or what are our competencies and things like that. Those are pieces of the puzzle. But to really bring things all together — head, hearts, hands — who are we in character and action, I think really invites and challenges us, right, into a deeper, more meaningful space.

And so, I’m just wondering as we look to wrap up this episode, what would you say to our listeners who are maybe wanting to become more intentional in this aspect of this leadership formation? Where do you start with this more holistic intentional approach?

[00:14:57] Dennis: I think we have a tendency to want to do it alone. And one of the things I would say is we really do need each other. If we’re going to have head, heart, and hands together, it’s not just my own journey, it’s our journey together. And I think a sense of accountability with others is vitally important.

And I’ll just give this story kind of in closing that may be helpful. This past summer I was invited to do a series of lectures in Nigeria on corruption and Christian ethics. And I did this in two different cities, a whole different series, eight different lectures in each series.

It was business leaders. It was some political leaders. It was church leaders. It was some people in the medicine field. And unfortunately, in this country of Nigeria, there is a great deal of corruption, an incredible amount of corruption. And one of the things I discerned while I was there and talking to folks is, it’s found its way into the church.

There are people who get leadership, positions, by paying bribes. And all kinds of stories of corruption that I heard, not just in politics, and not just out in the business and corporate world, but in the church as well. And one of the things that we talked about together is that if we are to be a healthy church, we need to start with healthy leadership, and the corruption needs to be done away with in the life of the church.

And a large part of that comes back to accountability. We’re accountable to each other, and ultimately, of course, we’re accountable to Christ. And so, when you ask the question, what can we do to achieve this? Obviously, it starts with me. It starts with my own relationship with Christ. It’s my head, heart, and hands coming together.

But then I think it’s that accountability, and we put good structures of accountability in place. I think one of the great dangers is when we have one person making all the decisions alone and we put all the power in this one person. That of course in societies is what leads to a totalitarian dictatorship. But you can have the same thing in the church, and that’s why we need each other in this journey together.

[00:17:23] Cara: Thank you so much. I really think that what you’ve named is so important — doing it together in community. And, if we come back to even what we discussed in the previous episode, what are the things that we learn for from creation for God’s good purposes.

And he did make us in his image, and he’s a relational God. And so, I think that is really, really important. And especially when I think about our leaders, it can be tempting to do it alone, right?

Dennis. Yeah.

Cara: Because we’re meant to be leading. But as we grow and we pursue that, to do that with one another.

And the other thing that I wanted to highlight is that you said structures. And I think that’s really key too. And I want to encourage our listeners that it’s not just, while we’re willy-nilly accountable to one another, right?

Dennis: Yeah, exactly.

Cara: But how do we put structures in place? How are we thoughtful about that?

And for our listeners, one of the things that we also emphasize in GCI in terms of ministry practices is being team-based.

Dennis: Yeah.

Cara: And so, I really want to encourage you all who are building your teams, who are wanting to take this journey of growing in your healthy leadership and what that means for head, hands, and heart, what Christian ethics looks like as you lead, to do so in the context of your team, other people who have surrounded you and support you. Mentors is another thing that we really emphasize.

[00:18:55] Dennis: That’s great. I’m so glad to hear that, Cara, that’s so important.

[00:18:58] Cara: Yes. Yes, I think so too. So, I, I encourage you guys to continue to pursue this in relationship with one another.

Thank you so much for that final word, Dr. Hollinger, of, I think both encouragement and also, what’s the word that I want to look for, almost that invitation and challenge? Maybe I know I’ve said that a lot, but into how do we take our next steps together and grow in this aspect of our healthy leadership. So, thank you so much for sharing your insights with us again.

You guys stay tuned for episode three, where we’re going to be exploring Christian ethics and ministry practice, and some of those practical pieces of what it means to participate in ministry with Christian ethical posture. So, thank you so much. We are looking forward to hearing from you in the next episode. And until next time y’all keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thanks for listening to the GC Podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org.

The post Discipleship and Christian Ethics Pt 2 w/ Dr. Dennis Hollinger first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Discipleship and Christian Ethics Pt 1 w/ Dr. Dennis Hollinger

Welcome to the GC Podcast. This year, we’re centering on Kingdom Culture and exploring how it transforms ministry and equips leaders for kingdom living. Through conversations with Grace Communion Seminary professors and a few other guests, we’ll explore how their teachings equip ministry leaders to embody kingdom values.

This is the GC Podcast, where we help you grow into the healthiest ministry leader you can be. Sharing practical insights and best practices from the context of Grace Communion International Churches. Here’s your host, Cara Garrity.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to this episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today we are thrilled to have Dr. Dennis Hollinger join us. Dennis Hollinger is President Emeritus and the Distinguished Senior Professor of Christian Ethics at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. He has spent years as a Christian Ethics professor and has continued his work in writing into retirement.

So, thank you so much, Dennis, for joining us today.

Dennis: Thank you, Cara. It’s just a delight to be with you today. Appreciate the opportunity.

Cara: Absolutely. And your area of teaching and study with Christian ethics is really applicable to in GCI this year. Our theme that we’re exploring in terms of our ministry practices is kingdom culture.

And Christian ethics really fits right into that. And so, we are going to be starting today a three-part miniseries on Christian ethics. We will review in the first episode, what is Christian ethics? In the second episode, discipleship and Christian ethics. And then in the third episode, Christian ethics and ministry practice.

We encourage you all, listeners, to tune in for all three episodes of this miniseries. And today we’re just going to go ahead and jump right in with that kind of foundational or introductory question of what is Christian ethics? And so, Dr. Hollinger, how would you define Christian ethics for our listeners?

[00:02:18] Dennis: Well, Cara, it’s probably helpful just to, first of all, define what we mean by ethics. Ethics has to do with determining what’s right or wrong, good or bad, just or unjust. And of course, everybody does ethics, if you will. They think about, or at least they make some determination in their life of what’s right and what’s wrong.

Unfortunately for many people, what’s right and what’s wrong is what benefits them. What’s in it for me? That’s a kind of modern approach, I think. And Christian ethics, we’re thinking about the right and the wrong, the good, the bad, the just, the unjust, from a Christian worldview that is rooted in the Bible.

And as we think about Christian ethics, it always has, I think, two components to it. It has to do with our actions in all arenas of life, and it has to do with our character — who we are inwardly. And I think both of those are vitally important, particularly as we think about Christian ethics. So, it’s not just, what do I do in my daily life, what do I do in my work, what do I do in my home, in my community? But it’s also, who am I in my character? Because our character interactions are really deeply intertwined with each other.

[00:03:37] Cara: Yes, thank you for that definition and foundation. I really appreciate the kind of holistic approach that it’s both actions and character when we’re talking about Christian ethics.

And it sounds like, from what you said, that we all kind of practice some kind of ethic. It’s just, what’s the lens through which we do it, what are our kind of, maybe like, guiding posts in terms of like how we determine our character and actions that are formed in that. And so, I’m curious, how would you describe your approach to Christian ethics?

[00:04:12] Dennis: I would say that our overall approach needs to be rooted in the Christian worldview. That is our understanding of reality from a Christian standpoint. And the biblical story in the Christian worldview is, I think, encapsulated in four things: Creation — God creates a wonderful, beautiful world with humans made in his image.

Secondly, there is the fall. We turn away from God. And Genesis chapter 3 gives a portrait not only of Adam and Eve’s sin, but of our sin, our fallenness, our turning away from God. And then the third component is redemption. After the fall, God begins a process of calling a people out to himself with a promise that someday a redeemer would come and would bring redemption and salvation to human beings.

And that’s the third component then is that redemption in Jesus Christ. And then the final part is the final restoration, sometimes a consummation, when Christ returns and makes things all right. And that restoration, I think, is a restoration back to what God intended in creation. And so, I think all four parts of that are vitally important: the creation, the fall, the redemption, and the final restoration. But most recently I’ve written a book on the creation component because I think it’s so vital. And I think in our own time, it has been minimized and even rejected by a lot of people.

[00:05:50] Cara: Yes. And that I just want to mention is the work that you’ve written — Creation and Christian Ethics: Understanding God’s Designs for Humanity and the World. And so, I would love to hear a little bit more specifically about that creation aspect in these kind of four pieces that you just mentioned, and then, if you’re able to, after that, maybe just share a quick review of the fall, redemption, and restoration aspects.

[00:06:18] Dennis: Sure. With creation, I think it’s interesting that whenever Christians think about creation, so often they get embroiled in the controversies. When did God create the world and humans? How did God create? And we overlook, it seems to me, what is really at the heart of Genesis 1 and 2, and that is a story. It’s in story form, in a narrative that is very rich in theological understanding and in ethical understanding. And let me give you just a few examples of that and kind of what I unpack in my book that you just mentioned, Cara.

One of the first things that we see in the creation story in Genesis 1 is that after every day there is a pronouncement, “it is good.” It’s very, very interesting. We have other creation stories from the ancient world, but we don’t have anything like that in those other creation stories. The biblical story I think is quite unique along those lines. What is good? Interestingly, it’s not what we might think. If we were thinking what is good, we might think it’s prayer, it’s spiritual things, but what’s pronounced good are very material things.

God creates a physical earth. He creates the sun, moon, and stars. He creates vegetation in the natural world. He creates the animal world. And then he creates human beings, male and female, and pronounces them good. After he’s done with all the creation, God looks at everything he’s made and he says, Behold, it is very good.

Now, when we think about that, I think that has a lot of implications for ethics. And let me just take as an example three things that we often think of today as the big ethical issues in our world: money, sex, and power. I think a lot of people today would say, yeah, those are, the three big issues of our world, money, sex, and power.

And I think as Christians, we often think about those things in just very negative ways. If we go back to the creation story, money, sex, and power, are good gifts of God. And so, the issue then for us is not just to dwell on the misuses on the negative side but understand what are God’s purposes with these three things that are pronounced good in creation.

And by implication, I think money, sex, and power are all there in the creation story. No, the word money isn’t mentioned, but the stuff of money is there as God creates the natural world for humans to utilize it and to care for it. And out of that would come an exchange that we eventually call money. And so, that’s foundational for thinking about any of the issues related to money, to sex, and to power. And indeed, those are three very, very big issues it seems to me in our world today. That’s just one example of one chapter in my book, but I think it just has profound significance for Christians thinking about these issues in a way that’s going to lead us to be very different from the world around us.

[00:09:46] Cara: Yeah, I want to highlight, I really appreciate what you said. It’s not just about the misuse of these aspects of creation, but what are the intended purposes. And I think that that is really insightful for when we are kind of moving towards what does this mean, in our day-to-day life as disciples and as we participate in kingdom culture. I think that’s a very distinct approach, right? That it’s not just about naming and correcting the misuses, but what are the intended good purposes?

[00:10:20] Dennis: Yeah. Let me just give an example on the power issue, if I may, Cara.

[10:56:00] Cara: Yes, please.

[10:57:00] Dennis: It’s very interesting that when we hear the word power, we usually think negative — power is bad. A famous phrase is that power is just evil and great power is very evil. But power really is a good thing if it’s used correctly. All of us have forms of power in various dimensions of life. If you’re a parent, you have power. It’s capacity to shape things and mold things in life. Most of us on our jobs, no matter what your job, have some degree of power. In the church there is always some degree of power.

If you’re a Sunday school teacher, you have power as you are teaching that class. That is, you have a capability to shape and mold human minds for the glory of God. And so, power is taking that capacity that God has given us in the various arenas of life and using it, not for our own good, but using it for the glory of the kingdom of God — using it to shape human minds, using it to shape human hearts, using it to shape the world that God has put us in. And so, power is not an evil thing when it’s thought of in that way. And then it means that in the various arenas of life, wherever God has placed us, whatever capacities God has given to us, we really make sure that we’re using that power for the glory of God.

And Jesus talks about this, of course, when James and John on one occasion come to him, and they want high positions when he sets up the kingdom of God. And the other disciples are really angry at him and then Jesus goes on to give a statement about the way in which the world, the Gentiles leaders, are absorbed with power. They try to dominate each other, but he says not so with you, for the Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many. I think that’s a good paradigm for thinking about power that really goes back to the creation story, that whatever power capacities we have in various areas of life, we’re to use that to serve and to serve others and to serve the church and to serve the kingdom of God. That’s just one example of the many things that we find in the creation story.

[00:13:05] Cara: Yes, thank you. That’s a really helpful example that you’ve provided for us. And if you would give an overview of those three next movements and how that informs your approach to ethics?

[00:13:19] Dennis: Yeah. Let’s take the fall. I think a lot of people think, if we just get the right political government in place, the world will be changed, everything will be right. If we just have enough education in the world, everything will be right. If we just have enough new technology, we’ll make the world a new place.

But the fall really tells us that in our fallenness, we are not going to reshape this world into God’s kingdom. That kingdom is made through Christ. As Christians, we’re called to reflect the kingdom, which goes back to creation. But the fall reminds us that all of our human efforts will never change this world, this society, this country, or any country into the kingdom of God.

And the creation story is just rich in understanding ourselves, understanding our world. And why it’s so difficult for human beings to live out the creation story and those principles, those paradigms, as I like to call them, that really come out of creation. I think what we find in the chapter three of Genesis in the fall are several things that really are pertinent to the world and our lives today when it comes to ethics.

There’s an alienation from God. We no longer want to do what God has designed. And Adam and Eve decide they know better than God, they can go their own way in following the tempter. There’s an alienation from ourselves, so that there’s self-deception in the story in Genesis chapter 3.

There’s alienation from each other, so that now Adam comes to dominate his wife, and they are no longer in harmony with each other, and there’s an alienation from nature so that this natural world that God has given to shape and to steward and to develop, now there is domination in it, and so there is the language about the thorns and the thistles and the difficulties one faces in working in the world.

Those are all elements of the fall. Then there’s the story of redemption. Christ comes to redeem us, to make us right with God. And one of the results of that is that through Christ, we are also made right with each other. So that there’s a beginning in the heart and the mind and the lives of Christians, a turning away from the results of the fall, back toward what God designed in the first place, as we follow Christ. And so that redemption brings something new into the life, which is enabling, through the power of the Holy Spirit, to really live, then, the Christian ethics life.

And then there is the final restoration, which is a reminder that though we have been renewed in Christ, we have not experienced the final renewal. We know that we still fail, we still sin. We sometimes fail to live out the kind of character and the kind of actions that God calls us to through the power of the Holy Spirit.

And so that final restoration is when our own lives will be renewed, and also when the kingdoms of this world will be made into the kingdom of God. We’re called to be salt and light in this world. But the final restoration, the ultimate restoration, does not reside in our human efforts, it does not reside in the world of politics, it does not reside in the world of business, or any of the other things which may be good gifts of God, but are not the ultimate solution in our world today.

[00:17:15] Cara: Yes. Thank you for that overview. And I really appreciate that worldview and kind of story approach to — maybe the word I’m looking for is like a holistic or a wider view of how we’re informed about ethics. And starting from the creation through to restoration, I think, is how do we reflect, participate in the entire story of God and his creation.

And I do see it looks like you explore the impact or the implications of this kind of threefold or fourfold story of the Christian worldview and how that kind of informs a Christian approach to ethics also in your book, Choosing the Good, Christian Ethics in a Complex World. And so, that’s a really helpful overview if any of our listeners, want to learn a little bit more. Is that the best place for them to go and dig into that?

[00:18:12] Dennis: Yeah, I think the Choosing the Good book has been used as a textbook in a lot of colleges and seminaries. It’s an introduction to the field of Christian ethics.

And then my book, as you mentioned, Cara, on creation and Christian ethics is more probing into the creation story and what are the paradigms we draw out of that. So, in that book, for example, let me just give you a few other examples.

One of the things in the creation story is we’re made in the image of God. And one of the implications of that is that all human beings have great value and dignity. That has implications for racism and ethnocentrism. It has implications for guarding human life at the beginning in the womb and at the end of life. I do a whole chapter on creation care, that we’re called to steward creation.

I do a whole chapter on relationships, including sexuality and marriage and family that comes out of that paradigm in the creation story. I do a chapter on work. It’s really interesting that a lot of people don’t think about the way Sunday and Monday connect to each other, but work is not a result of the fall. It really goes back to the creation story. God himself works. And then it says on the seventh day, he ceases from his work and then he gives a job of work to human beings in the garden. So, work itself has significance in the Christian story and the Christian life. So those are among a number of other themes that I work out in that book, and I think are really vital as we think about Christian ethics in our world today.

[00:19:59] Cara: Thank you. Yes, that is a really helpful image and an example of some of the implications that that has. And I, to close out our time in this episode, I’m wondering — you started with a definition of ethics and then Christian ethics in particular. And then I’ve described your approach to Christian ethics through this fourfold story. And what are the paradigms that come out of that? And I’m wondering, from the start of our conversation — ethics can be practiced in a whole ton of different ways, right? And as you mentioned, maybe we make decisions about what’s right and wrong in our character for our own purposes or we have particular agendas. And so, what would you say, if you were to leave a final word with our listeners? What difference does it make to approach ethics from this Christian worldview?

[00:20:53] Dennis: I think living out a Christian ethic really points people to Christ, and so often when we think about our evangelism in the world today, we think about sharing the good news of Jesus Christ, but we don’t just share the good news. We live the good news. And I think that’s the big difference it makes.

When people see Christians living in a different way, whether it be in the world of business or government or medicine and, in those arenas, we’re not given exactly what we ought to do. I serve on an ethics committee at a large hospital here in Charlotte, North Carolina. And when we deal with issues in the world of medicine it’s not always clear. But, as a Christian, I have a worldview framework that helps me approach those very difficult issues, such as issues at the end of life, or issues about reproductive technologies, which are available today for couples who are experiencing being infertile, I should say. And I think in all of that, there’s a sense that, as a Christian, we have a coherent framework to approach issues that the New Testament writers had never even heard of, but that we face in our very complex world today. And as Christians, when we live that out, I think it bears a witness to the reality of the triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in very powerful ways.

[00:22:28] Cara: Yes. Thank you so much. And I think that’s a really compelling image or desire to end our episode on. This is part of our witness as we live out in actions and character by his transforming power and presence with us, but that we have this coherence. I really liked that word that you used — maybe framework versus haphazard approach to deciding who we are and what we do because of that. So, I really appreciate that.

We are going to close out this first episode of the miniseries. We invite you listeners to tune in for the next episode on discipleship and Christian ethics. And I think that we’re going to see that there are some rich implications there, even just based on our conversation today in this episode.

So, Dennis, thank you so much for joining us today. We look forward to hearing from you in the next episode. And friends, until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thanks for listening to the GC Podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org.

The post Discipleship and Christian Ethics Pt 1 w/ Dr. Dennis Hollinger first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Missional Rhythms w/ Charles Fleming

Welcome to the GC Podcast. This year, we’re centering on Kingdom Culture and exploring how it transforms ministry and equips leaders for kingdom living. Through conversations with Grace Communion Seminary professors and a few other guests, we’ll explore how their teachings equip ministry leaders to embody kingdom values.

This is the GC Podcast, where we help you grow into the healthiest ministry leader you can be. Sharing practical insights and best practices from the context of Grace Communion International Churches. Here’s your host, Cara Garrity.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity. And today we are blessed to have Charles Fleming with us as a guest, a professor at Grace Communion Seminary. And today we’re going to be continuing our exploration of our 2025 theme of Kingdom Living through the course that Charles teaches at GCS, called Missional Living.

So, thank you so much for joining us today, Charles.

[00:01:15] Charles: Cara, thank you so much for having me. It’s a joy to join you.

[00:01:18] Cara: Yeah, I’m looking forward to our conversation. I know that this class is really rich, so I kind of just want to start from the foundations. What does missional living have to do with the concept and practice of kingdom living and kingdom culture?

[00:01:37] Charles: Cara, that’s just a great question. I really appreciate it because in a sense, it addresses what I see as three of the big challenges that churches across the denominations, not just those of us in GCI, but across the denominations, are facing as we try to help people to become more missional. I just mentioned those three questions because they shaped the way I designed the course.

One is just understanding what mission is and why it’s so important. A second one that I see people struggling with is what does the idea of the kingdom have to do with mission? How do you integrate that or how does that shape the concept of mission? And how do we go about living a missional or sent life?

That’s the practical side of it. Because even when people get a sense of the importance of mission, the how-to becomes a challenge. So those are three big, I think, misunderstandings. Two of them are misunderstandings. The first one, what is mission? I think people have an idea that mission is optional.

It’s an optional ministry. It’s not key to what the church is all about. And even the concept of missionary, because of our history, when Christianity was a regional religion, just restricted to Europe. And then in the colonial period, missionaries went out. We have this vision of missionaries being somebody that goes far away, which is so far — that’s included in the idea of mission. But if you just restrict it to that, then people begin to think it might be that mission is optional if you’re living in a, what you might call so-called Christian country.

The second misunderstanding: what does the idea of the kingdom have to do with mission? And a lot of people just don’t recognize that the kingdom is central to the whole concept of mission.

And I’m going to talk a little bit more about that later, but we really need to help people recognize that if we don’t have a robust view of the kingdom, if the kingdom is kind of like a blank placeholder that people fill with whatever their thoughts are, and it’s not a concrete concept, then it’s divorce from mission. And the whole idea of why the church exists begins to be skewed.

And then the third one is just how to do it. And so, maybe I can explain a little bit about the class by giving the backstory. When I was asked to teach this class — my understanding is that Mike Rasmussen, our supervisor of ministry here in the U. S., asked Greg Albrecht and the folks at GCS to provide some courses for people who would not be doing a master’s degree. There might be people working in the different Avenues, the Faith, the Hope, and the Love Avenue. Could GCS offer courses for people who were not pursuing a master’s, maybe didn’t even have a bachelor’s degree, but could get some training through GCS?

So, the class I developed is what I call a hybrid. It’s robust enough for pastors and others doing a master’s degree, but it is also designed, especially with Love Avenue leaders and members in mind. And so that’s the backdrop, background of how I designed it.

So, I asked myself, how would I answer those three challenges: helping people get a better view of what mission is and why it’s important; how you integrate the concept of the kingdom into the whole understanding of mission; and then how there’d be a practical section. So basically, I divided the course into two parts. The first four is what I call addressing the “being.”

It’s a theological foundation where we ask four questions: who is God — four who questions, Cara. Who is God? Who are we as the church? And then who am I as an individual member of the church? And fourthly, who are our neighbors? Because mission is all about reaching out to our neighbors, people who do not yet know Jesus.

The first four weeks, I address what I call the “being.” Why do we exist? Why did Jesus raise us? Who am I as part of that church? And can I get a better understanding of the people I’m trying to reach out to?

Once we lay that foundation, when we have six weeks of practicals, so that in a sense is, is how I structure the course.

And I think your question is just so brilliant. How does mission, what does missional have to do with the concept and practice of kingdom culture? It addresses what I see as three of the big areas, three big challenges. Maybe I could give you an example of how we deal with that.

[00:06:10] Cara: Yeah, that would be excellent.

[00:06:11] Charles: So, the intent of the two parts, the two sections of the course in the first four weeks, we’re trying to cultivate in students and spark an imagination for living sent with the message of Jesus and his kingdom. And to do so in a way that inspires and motivates students to self identify.

I actually will talk a little bit in a moment about how we challenge students to think of one of my “I am” statements. Do I see myself as, I am one sent? I am a missionary. So, it’s an attempt to spark that imagination that “I am.” I self identify as a citizen of the kingdom of love, on mission, sharing the love of Jesus Christ.

So, that’s the intent for the first part of the course, the first four weeks, the “being” section.

And then in the second section, we have six weeks where we offer them a range of simple and yet very practical approaches and skill sets and challenge them to choose the skill sets and the approaches that are relevant to their context. They need to learn how to read their context and see: of these books I’ve read, of those lectures I’ve listened to, et cetera, the discussions I’ve had in class, what do I take away as part of my contribution to the work of Christ in my life? And then to the health of the congregation in terms of developing rhythms that we could become missional?

So, that’s the intent. So, for example, why is mission important? I addressed this in week one. I just asked the, who is God, question and lay a theological, a biblical foundation. And we see that God is missional.

Because the folks who have done research about mission care have found out that within the last 100 plus years, there’s been a major paradigm shift in understanding of mission in the light of who God is. And they actually cite Trinitarian theologians and specifically Karl Barth as being one of the leaders who has brought about this new theological paradigm where we see mission must be understood as being derived from the very nature of God, and God is a missional God.

Some would even go so far as to say mission is one of the attributes of God, an attribute in the sense that because God is so much a God of love, he’s always reaching out on mission.

And Michael Reeves, who wrote one of the books that we use in the course entitled, Overflow: How the Joy of the Trinity Inspires our Mission. Michael Reeves has a beautiful way of describing it. And I’m just going to read a short section that we emphasize in the class. And this is Reeve’s description. He says,

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were happy in themselves, and they enjoyed one another before the world was. Apart from the fact that God delights to communicate and spread his goodness, apart from that, there would never have been a creation or redemption.

So asks Michael Reeves, why did God create? And here we see him channeling Acts 17:26, where Paul talks about God didn’t create because there was a need. He didn’t have a need. He says, so why did God create? And Michael Reeves answers because God delights to spread his goodness. In other words, he’s like a sun, S U N, goodness, blazing out with love.

God didn’t create because he had to, because of any lack. He created because he was so happily bursting with goodness. God is so overflowingly, super abundantly full of life in himself that he delighted to spread his goodness. His innermost being is a sun of light, life, and warmth, always shining out, radiant and outgoing.

And so, this image of a God, who Father, Son, and Spirit were so delighting in life that they said, we want to share this. And they went on mission with the creation. So, we see even before we were created, God had missional — if you could call it this way, using human language — God had missional instincts. He’s just reaching out. His love overflows.

So, that book by Reeves has really been helpful to students to get a picture of a God who is just on mission. He’s just sharing his love, and he invented us. He invented humans so that there could be other creatures, who could be image bearers of his and who could enjoy life with him.

And that’s the destiny he has for us in eternity. And why he put us on this planet. So, what is mission? It is the living expression of God’s ongoing love for humanity. God in the person of Jesus Christ is on mission. So, this is my attempt to help students begin to see that mission is not just a thing, but it’s an important aspect of who God is and therefore of what we need to pay attention.

And so, that leads to week two where we ask the question about, well, who are we as the church and who am I? And we immediately begin to see that mission is not optional. One of the scriptures that I hit pretty heavily in the class is Hebrews 3:1. You know, in Hebrews 2, as you might recall, Cara we have this beautiful description of Jesus coming on mission. He took on flesh and blood. He’s not ashamed to call us his brothers and sisters. And following up on that in beginning in what we have as chapter 3:1, Paul the writer of Hebrews tells us, “Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, we who share in the heavenly calling.”

So, here’s Jesus sent by the Father. And we get to share in that divine and heavenly calling. “Fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest,” as you know, means sent. And so, in the second set of lectures in week two, we’ve been taking a look at the Church and seeing that we are, this is part of our calling, part of our vocation.

And I actually challenged the students with an exercise where I tell them that, you know, we all have a number of I am statements. I’m a male, a citizen of the United States. I’m a retired minister. We have, you know, I’m a husband, I’m a father, I’m a grandfather. We have eight to 10, maybe 12 “I am” statements that get to the core of who we understand ourselves to be.

And I challenged students to read the New Testament writers where, for example, they say, “you are a royal priesthood, you are ambassadors for Christ” and turn them into “I am” statements. And then I said, in your living life, do you have a part of your core identity among those 8, 10, 12 “I am” statements, “I am one sent,” “I am an ambassador”? Is that a go-to the way of defining yourself? And I invite them to get into the process of living out of that, making that not just some formal statement you might put on an application, but that they live out of a sense that I am sent.

So, that’s the way I try to help students deal with that first one, that first misunderstanding that mission is often seen as optional. No, it’s not. So, my hope here is that with a strong identification with the God of mission and adding an “I am sent, I am an ambassador” sense to their identity, they’d be more deeply committed to mission.

So, that’s one of the ways that I started.

[00:13:46] Cara: Yes. I appreciate you sharing that. And I really, really appreciate beginning with, you said the “being.” Who am I? I think that that’s really powerful. Yeah, it’s giving me something to chew on. Is that one of my, “I am”? Am I a sent one?

So that’s excellent. Thank you.

[00:14:08] Charles: Okay, well, once we lay that foundation of cultivating that type of imagination and address that first misunderstanding, then we move to the more practical side of things. And this is where I offer them a range of perspectives that are simple and practical. And so, we start talking about the need for proclamation and demonstration, and for proclamation that there’s the approaches.

I have two weeks, weeks five and six — week five is where I look at the popular understanding of the gospel. And Jeff Vanderstelt, and we read his book on Gospel Fluency. That’s one of the books that students read. He actually said that too many Christians in his opinion have what he calls a minimalist understanding of salvation.

And so, we explore that. We take a look at the way that some people have said that we, a lot of Christians, have like a sin management approach. If I could just avoid sin — some have a very individualistic approach that we have sinned and that we’re just going away off to heaven. And it’s all about my personal individual salvation.

And so, one of the things that we do in week five is we look at those gaps. The critique of people like Dallas Willard. N. T. Wright, Scott McKnight, Jeff Vanderstelt, as I mentioned, showing where in the popular imagination the gospel has really been reduced in people’s understanding, and they don’t have that holistic view. And so, I challenge the students to make sure that they don’t fall into those traps.

And then in the week six, we take a look at, well, what is God’s story? Because one of the things that Vanderstelt says in his book is that we all live out of stories. And if we don’t have God’s big story in mind, we sometimes just overly personalize the gospel into just my private salvation: I’m just here; this world is a bad place; I’m going to go off to heaven.

And so, we go through, and we look across the themes of the Bible and we see that the whole idea that God had — we asked the question, what was God’s original intent in creating humans? And what is the ultimate destiny that he has in mind for us?

And there’s some themes that just crop up right across the view. In other words, one of the things we notice is the concept of a royal priesthood. We look in Eden, and we see that the vocation that we humans were given was to join Jesus, to join the triune God, in taking care of the planet. We, like a royal priest, taking this planet that’s teeming with potential and bringing it to its full glory.

We look at Exodus and we recognize that in Exodus 19, Israel was called after the fall in the garden, Israel was called to be a kingdom of priests (and that’s Exodus 19.) So, we see a royal priesthood ruling under God. In the garden, we failed at that. So now Israel is raised up to be that royal priesthood.

And then we come to the New Testament, and Peter tells us that we’re royal priesthood. We go to the book of Revelation, and we see that in eternity, we are going to reign with Christ. We’re going to be his servants. He’s going to be the king of Kings. But we’re going to be a kingdom of priests. And as it says, reigning, I tell the students, I like to think of that as administering.

We get an eternity, not only to enjoy life in the family of God for all eternity, but we get to join him in the Father’s business. Jesus came, and he said he was about the Father’s business. And we see that we get to help bring out the potential, in this universe that is teeming with potential. God’s going to ask us to join him in administering it.

I don’t speculate what that will be like. I just take the words at face value that in this life we’re being prepared for that. So, I try to help students get a feel for the full beauty of the gospel of the kingdom of God.

And this is where I integrate the — you know, you asked about the connection of

the kingdom with mission. Well, let’s face it, without Jesus coming, there would not have been any kingdom. So, Jesus’ mission — without him coming on mission, there would have been no reestablishment of the kingdom of God on earth. But on the other hand, without God’s desire to reestablish his kingdom, Jesus would never have been sent.

So again, just reinforcing that idea that, you know, we cannot separate it —kingdom from mission. Jesus came because the Father was — you know, the triune God looked at us when we sinned and they said — it’s clear that they just came to this commitment: we are not going to live through eternity without our beloved human family; they’ve gone prodigal, but we’re going to find a way.

And they did! Before the foundation of the world, there was this commitment that God, the Son would become Jesus would come. So, we see — I try to help students see that we cannot talk about mission without understanding God’s big story, that he is reestablishing his rule over the creatures who he made to be image bearers.

We have creativity, we are conscious, we are self conscious, we have choices, and (as we know from Karl Barth and others) God has chosen his freedom to love us and he wants us to choose freely to love him back. So, he gave us choice, but God is wooing us back, and Jesus is the wonderful suitor that has come to represent God. We know what God looks like because of Jesus, and he has rescued us. So, mission and kingdom have to go together.

And in weeks five and six, I’m trying to help students see that and have that big picture again, sparking an imagination for, “this is more than just me running away from hell by accepting Jesus.”

I’m running away from hell, and Jesus has carried me away from the consequences of my sin. But I also want to be running towards this glorious destiny that God has for me. And I get to join Jesus, participating in this ongoing ministry of Jesus that we call mission. And so, so that’s weeks five and six.

And then the last four weeks is where we get into the practical areas. And so, we use Michael Frost’s book on building habits. It’s trying to help students form themselves, spiritually forming themselves to be missional.

And I chose books that I know a lot of our leaders are already familiar with. But just giving them an opportunity in the discussion forums to talk these things through and let iron sharpen iron. But Frost has a beautiful, simple approach to building missional habits. I’ve used some of the material from place-sharing. I got your permission, Cara, to use the interviews that were done with Anthony and Elizabeth Mullins, with Dishon [Mills].

And so, you know, just allowing the students to actually discuss that, and they actually break out into Zoom meetings to just talk about that. And then we wrap up the course with an attempt to help students learn the skill of discerning in community. So, as they prepare for their final paper they get together on Zoom in groups of three and four.

And each student has a half an hour to share: these are the things I’m taking away. And to get feedback from their peers as they talk about how they would implement it in their area.

So that’s, that’s what I try to do as I think back on the original intent of the class — how can we help pastors and Avenue champions to take material and let it spark them that their sense of who they are has changed, but here also are some very practical things that you can do. So that’s kind of an overview of how I’ve tried to gear this course, to address the whole commitment of GCI, that we would become healthy church, speaking specifically to the Love Avenue.

[00:22:18] Cara: Yes. Oh, thank you so much. That course sounds so rich. And, you know, if I were to sum up what you shared, it sounds like missional living has everything to do with the kingdom and the kingdom has everything to do with missional living. So, I’m looking forward to taking this course one day.

[00:22:37] Charles: Please do. I’d love to have you in it.

[00:22:39] Cara: Yes, I would love to. I would love to learn. I love what you’ve laid out in terms of the approach to being formed in mission. And so, you know, I’m wondering how does this missional living impact our practice of ministry? You know, you said towards the end of the course, you get more into the practical kind of “living it out” aspects.

And so how, how does it impact our practice of ministry? And then I guess secondarily, what implications does it have for the development of healthy leader and healthy church rhythms?

[00:23:13] Charles: I like these questions, Cara, and here’s how I hope they would unfold. I hope that students would then go back to their congregations, recognizing the importance of imagination. We live out of our imagination. We have a vision of something, and we try to bring it about. Imagination is our day to day life. If you’re planning a vacation, it’s in your imagination that you picture, am I going to go to the Bahamas or would I go to Europe? And you picture what you would like to do, and then you draw a plan from it.

So, I would hope that students would then, in their preaching, in their counseling, in their leading Love Avenue group, and leading a connect group on the Faith Avenue side of things, that they would have a sense that how important it is to have that vision of God, who in the case of the Love Avenue is missional, in the case of a Faith Avenue is the primary disciple-maker of my life. He uses pastors. He uses Bibles. He uses circumstances, but the one who is superintending the process of growth, the disciple, is Jesus.

And so, that students would come away seeing the importance of imagination, seeing the importance of a personal identity that when you read Scripture that says, “you are” (speaking collectively to the church), that we would say, well, how does that shift my self-understanding vice the way I self-identify, am I intentional about becoming adding an “I am” statement?

You know, I am a disciple maker. If you’re in the Faith Avenue, but certainly speaking now to the Love Avenue, do I see myself as someone sent? I’d hope that the students would’ve learned enough to follow Moses’ example where he could read his culture. Remember it says in the book of Hebrews that he gave up the pleasures of Egypt and chose God’s way. In other words, he critiqued his culture, saw where it was impinging on his ability to really serve God.

And so, I’m hoping that students are able to read the culture and see the importance of helping other people to see the need to guard our hearts as we try to live sent, because we’re not withdrawing from society, actually we’re plunging into our neighborhoods, into our workplaces.

Can we guard our hearts and recognize the idolatry in our culture? These are some of the things I hope students can take away. And then just seeing that the gospel of the kingdom of God — Jesus shows up in Mark 1, and it says the time is fulfilled. The kingdom of God is now available, believe the gospel of what the kingdom of God, the kingdom is more than just me being whisked off to heaven.

The kingdom is understanding that when Christ comes back the second time, and we have the kingdom in its fullness, it’s going to be that heaven and earth are connected. That we are going to be on this earth, this renewed earth, and we’re going to be part of God’s making it the glorious place that it will be.

My hope is that as students go through the practice and the discipline of developing missional habits, that they will become contagious and other people will be drawn to follow them. And that we also recognize that the Love Avenue is not the “be all and end all” of the church. It’s just part of, and we definitely need the Faith Avenue.

We need people to be discipled and strengthened so that they can join us going out with an active and obvious relationship with Christ. We need the Hope Avenue. And so, one of the things I hope they take away from my class is that we’re not just saying it’s all about mission. Mission is central to it, to go out there.

We need the connect groups. We need the Faith Avenue. We need the Hope Avenue. That we would see ourselves as an indispensable part of something larger. So, those are some of the ways that I hope it can address the rhythms in the church, that each student would become contagious for mission and do their part in helping the church to be what it needs to be.

[00:27:28] Cara: Yes. I appreciate that, that wording that you used, contagious —really when we talk about culture building, that is something that I think has a big impact on the rhythms that we live out in the life of a healthy congregation and the life of a healthy leader. And so, for that to be learned in the context of relationship with God and one another in community, I think that that’s a beautiful thing to think about, how that students who take your course can carry with them what they’ve learned in a really tangible embodied way.

And that that would have really direct and practical implications for what the life of the local church is like.

You spoke about some of the takeaways that you hope your students will be able to walk away with and bring into the life of their local church and ministry practices and ministry rhythms. If you got to say one major takeaway from the course, what is one major takeaway that will develop our practice of kingdom living and living out of that kingdom culture and building up that kingdom culture?

[00:28:58] Charles: One of the things to me is — it’s a simple thing, but I think it has huge implications. It’s the definition of mission to me. The most effective — there are many technical definitions, but the one that I find just so beautiful is this: mission is taking the love of Jesus Christ across a boundary or a frontier.

That boundary or frontier could be geographic, like in the history of missions going to Africa or the Caribbean or to South America or whatever, but it also can be generational. It can also be social, crossing educational boundaries, crossing economic boundaries. It’s so beautiful. Now that I’m retired and have grandkids — when I worked for the church [GCI], I did a lot of traveling for the church on mission to different countries, et cetera.

Now I’m at home, and I think the mission I do now is just as important. When I sit in my living room, and I’m talking to my grandkids and helping them have an early understanding of Jesus Christ, I’m on mission. I’m taking the gospel across a generational bound, and I really want people to understand that mission is just a part of natural living.

In my case, in my life cycle, I don’t have the reach I had before. I don’t have the stamina anymore to do the traveling I did. I wouldn’t want to do that. But I have a chance to shape my grandkids, to the church that I visit to help people to get to know Christ and the triune God better.

And so, I hope a big takeaway from the class and even from this conversation as people listen to the podcast is to recognize that mission is just being a good neighbor to your neighbor and being intentional that wherever you can share the love of Christ in a tangible way, [inaudible] actions, or even just to be able to explain why it is that you live the way you do.

And that, that obviously is the payoff, when we get to that point, but it’s just part of the normal rhythm of life. I am living sent when I cross a boundary, maybe it is talking to somebody of a different age group, somebody of a different racial group, somebody of a different economic group, or somebody who — the biggest boundary we could cross is people who don’t know about Jesus Christ, helping them to come across that.

And so that to me is — if sometimes when I’m teaching the class, I go, if people can just get that picture and that’s the big takeaway from my class, then I’m happy about that. And so that, to me, is a definition I would just leave with your listener. Mission is joining Jesus in crossing a boundary and helping people to cross a boundary: the boundary from non-faith to faith, from little understanding to a little bit more understanding, from not being able to trust people because of my life experiences, to now find somebody that I can trust. And then hopefully we can point them to the one they can really trust.

So, that would be a final thought I would want to leave with our listeners because just a follow up to that, as we go through the class, and I use this as an example, people begin to realize that they have been on mission, but maybe they just had a different label for it.

People have been grandparenting their children, and because they had a sense of mission [means] I have to go travel somewhere else, they don’t see it as mission; they’re just saying I’m being a grandparent, or I’m being a parent, or I’m being a good uncle, or I’m being a good teacher at elementary school.

Helping people to realize that even in their life, they have been doing things missionally, but they gave it a different name. And maybe now that they see it as mission, they can be a little bit more intentional even more detail about Jesus and the wonderful love that he offers.

[00:32:55] Cara: Yes, that sounds like, again, I’ve said this before, but such a rich and formational course.

And again, I really appreciate the progression that the course takes a student through of “being,” and then into “how am I expressing that?” What are those practical ministry practices, what does that look like in my own context? How do you read the context of your culture? And I think that as you’ve talked, I really think that the redefining of mission really does highlight to us that we need missional living if we are going to be participating in kingdom culture.

And I really like how so simply you put it that it’s not an option. If we’re living and breathing in the culture of the kingdom and that’s our desire to be formed in that personally, and as a church community with our neighbors, this practice of missional living is going to be there and intentionally allow ourselves to be formed in that, to go in that, I think is a beautiful thing. And I really appreciate the idea of these are things that we’ve been doing all along, in some sense, because we were created in the image of a missional God, right?

And so maybe some things are actually even instinct. But how are we connecting those dots to be more intentional, to have a broader view of what mission is and what it means to live a life that is sent wherever we go, wherever life takes us?

[00:34:46] Charles: Yes.

[00:34:46] Cara: So yes, I am so appreciative, I hope, listeners, that you were able to take away something really meaningful, transformative and practical today. I know that I have, and I hope that it gives you a little bit of a taste to want to learn more, to know more, to grow more in missional living. And if it does, please go ahead and check out this course with Charles on missional living.

And like I said, maybe I’ll see you there in a future semester.

[00:35:20] Charles: Speaking of that, Cara, the class I’ll be offering in the summer, registration begins April 19, and the class begins, I think, in May. So, if anybody’s interested, (and I certainly would love to see you there, Cara, but depending on your schedule) but if any of the listeners are interested, they can contact GCS for the class will be in the summer of this year.

[00:35:43] Cara: Excellent. Okay. So, summer of 2025 and registration around April. So yeah, check out the website too, gcs.edu, and all of that information’s there. You can contact our registrar.

Especially in this year, again, as GCI is exploring this theme of kingdom culture and kingdom living, this class seems so applicable. And more practical than ever, like I think that you mentioned, what is our perception even of mission and how has that changed over the last hundred years? How do we participate in that now in our current context and culture?

So, thank you so much again, Charles. Thank you for taking your time to join me today, for your great work going into this course, for your love for God, and for sharing a little bit about this course with us today.

And so, it is our practice, as you know, with GC podcasts to end the show with a word of prayer. Would you be willing to pray for our churches and pastors and ministry leaders, members, and neighbors in GCI?

[00:36:53] Charles: It’ll be my pleasure. Just one last comment. I really love teaching GCS because by time students take the class that I offer, they’ve already done some of the theology classes, and so it really makes room for a practical class because I can spend a couple of sessions laying out the image, as I did, about the, as I mentioned, about an imagination for God. But then we get to spend six weeks on practical application. So, it’s just a wonderful experience to be at a seminary where we have that robust teaching in the required courses that allow the practical courses to devote that much time. So, it’s just a joy for me.

So yeah, let’s pray.

Our loving Father, we just rejoice in the fact that you truly are our Father. Father, you know that for me that word Father is a verb because you father us. And Lord Jesus, you are that older brother that came to rescue us. We just so appreciate the way that you, as our older brother, take care of us and disciple us, lead us on mission.

And Holy Spirit, we worship you for the fact that you never leave us nor forsake us, even though we do grieve you in the way we sometimes live. And so, I just pray for all of our listeners. I pray for Cara, I pray for all of us in GCI, all the students at GCS, that you would give us a much more clear vision of mission, of the fact that you have already established your kingdom.

We are already a part of that kingdom. We’re citizens of that kingdom. I am, we are citizens of the present kingdom of God, not yet in its fullness, but we’re like an outpost for your kingdom. You’ve given us the privilege, Lord, of living lives where we get to proclaim you and where we let people know that this is what life under the loving rule of King Jesus is like: can I tell you about it? Can I, through my actions, show you some of the wonderful things that come our way when we are under your rule?

May that become, if I could use the word, instinctive for us, second nature, or even first nature, just a part of who we are with you, Holy Spirit. Allow us to be transformed in that way.

We really want to be more missional. You have done such a wonderful work among us, transforming us from who we were to what you’re making us now. And we’re still in a work in progress, but we would like to share that with more people. Show us how Lord and give us the passion to do that. May your passion become our passion.

We pray this in the wonderful and precious name of Jesus, as we pray to you, father in the spirit. Amen.

[00:39:35] Cara: Amen. Amen. Thank you so much, Charles. And for the rest of y’all, keep on living and sharing the gospel until next time.

Thanks for listening to the GC Podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org.

The post Missional Rhythms w/ Charles Fleming first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Ministry Leadership w/ Lance McKinnon

Welcome to the GC Podcast. This year, we’re centering on Kingdom Culture and exploring how it transforms ministry and equips leaders for kingdom living. Through conversations with Grace Communion Seminary professors and a few other guests, we’ll explore how their teachings equip ministry leaders to embody kingdom values.

This is the GC Podcast, where we help you grow into the healthiest ministry leader you can be. Sharing practical insights and best practices from the context of Grace Communion International Churches. Here’s your host, Cara Garrity.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today I’m excited to have Dr. Lance McKinnon as our guest. Dr. McKinnon is a professor at Grace Communion Seminary, and today we’re going to continue exploring our 2025 theme of Kingdom Living through the GCS course, Foundations of Christian Leadership, that Dr. McKinnon teaches.

Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. McKinnon.

[00:01:24] Lance: Glad to be here.

[00:01:25] Cara: Excellent. So, like I said, we have this year the theme of Kingdom Living that we’re going to be exploring throughout the year. And so, I’m wondering, what does Christian ministry and the foundations of Christian ministry have to do with the concept and the practice of Kingdom Living?

[00:01:47] Lance: Yeah, that’s a question about relevancy, right? How is this class relevant to our lives, especially for the Christian life? And that’s always a common question for just about anything. What purpose does it serve? Is this actually going to help me?

So how is it relevant to the practice of kingdom living? And when we talk about kingdom living, we’re basically talking about the Christian life, the life we’re made for. So, what this class aims to do in the context of ministry is to get underneath it to visit the foundations, specifically the theological foundations. of Christian ministry.

What that means in a sense, is we want to deal with what’s real. And that actually leads to the relevancy, right? I like to say, there’s nothing more relevant than reality. If you don’t have, if you don’t know the reality, then things are going to go off. When we’re talking about kingdom living, then we need to know the reality of that kingdom.

Whose kingdom is it? Most specifically, who is the king? That makes a huge difference in how you live in that kingdom. If the king is a tyrant, you’re going to live very differently than in a kingdom where the king actually likes you and is for you. With that understanding, the class begins really with a heavy dose of theology.

And it’s a challenge for this class because it’s actually a ministry class, so it’s not one of our theology classes. I have to feed people with a fire hose in the beginning. And for some it’s a review from our theology classes, if they’ve taken those. And for others it’s an introduction to it.

They’re going to get a heavy dose of some big building blocks, if you will, some foundational theological. And then from there, what I aim to do, what we want to do in the class is to integrate that into the practice of ministry. I think one challenge we often have as pastors, or even as students and seminarians, is we get in our head like, okay, I’m going to learn this theology. I got it. I figured it out, I know the terminology. I can spout out certain concepts and understandings. Okay, but so now let’s go do some ministry. Now we’re going to leave that behind and get busy, right?

And we separate it in our mind, like theology is over here — we do our work, and we get that done with. And now we go do the real thing. Now we’re going to do real ministry. But that’s not the way to think about it.

They actually go together. You can’t separate them because ministry has a shape. It has a reality. And we have to explore that, namely who Jesus is. Because He’s the ultimate ministry, minister, and it is His ministry. So that makes a huge difference in how we go about ministry, knowing that it’s His; it’s not ours. That in itself will certainly change how we go about it.

And one thing I do in this class is I try to expand it where it’s more than just ministry, because we’re not really just talking about things we do in the church or beyond. We’re actually talking about the point that you’re focused on in these podcasts, and that is Kingdom Living.

So, the things that are in the class, that yes, it gets focused on ministry and specifically towards pastors or leaders, because those are the ones who are typically taking the classes. But it’s much broader than that. What we’re really talking about is what we’re made for, what God created us for.

So, it’s not “this only applies to a pastor or somebody in Christian ministry.” It’s “no, this actually applies to everybody.” Everybody. So, it’s really the big picture type of approach. And then we take that and then work it out and how we do ministry in our churches.

For example, the way it’s structured — or I should say, part of the structure that kind of weaves throughout the class — is I really want the students to be asking and answering the question of who is Jesus. So that’s the big block. That’s how we approach it, not how we do certain things in ministry, but who is Jesus?

And that is the reality that will actually help us answer those other “how” questions that come up. So, one way I do that is I — and this is just a pedagogical way of slicing things up to graph something, so it’s not meant to make some kind of doctrinal statement. But in order to really focus on Jesus, I break it down to five things, and it’s His birth, His life and ministry, His death, resurrection, and then ascension and promised return.

So, using those five aspects of the life of Christ, I connect that to five aspects, if you will, of ministry. And that’s worship, discipleship, service, fellowship, and sharing or witness. So, I connect those, and there’s a lot of overlap. It’s not exactly one to one, but it’s a way of getting at these things that we typically call ministry in the church, things we do, practices, and connecting it to who Jesus is, because the reality is, we’re not doing something apart from Jesus.

So, Jesus is over here; we know who he is. But now we’re going to go do worship, and we’re going to do discipleship, and ministry, and fellowship; we’re going to do evangelism, as if it’s something detached from Jesus. Rather, it’s actually in Jesus that we have those things. Does that make sense?

So, it’s trying to help make the connection and integrate really the big theological concept of union with Christ. And that’s because that’s the reality. That’s actually where we are. We’re in union with Him. So, by making those connections, it helps as you go through the class, you work out some of that.

For example, worship, we talk about worship. And that’s a big umbrella ministry or purpose, if you will, that really encapsulates all of them. When you’re doing discipleship, you’re worshiping. When you’re doing ministry, it’s an act of worship. So, all of these, in a sense, can come under worship, but I group it with Jesus’ birth because that’s the incarnation.

So, we see the grand purpose that God has for us, and that is to be worshippers, to actually, as the Westminster Catechism puts it, to glorify. It says, “the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.” That’s another way of saying worship.

And C. S. Lewis makes the point that to glorify God and enjoy Him forever are one and the same thing. Glorifying God is seeing Him for who He is. And if you see Him for who He is and know Him, you’re going to enjoy Him because He’s that beautiful. He’s that amazing. That’s worship. That’s what we’re made for.

So, when God sends His Son in the Incarnation, He does so to bring us into worship. And you see that in the birth narratives, if you’re reading through at the Christmas season the birth narratives, worship closely tied to the story of the incarnation. Jesus comes on the scene; He’s born, and the angels come down and there’s a whole host of heavenly angels in worship.

So, it’s like when the kingdom breaks in, worship breaks out. And so, we see that worship is very much tied to what Jesus brings in His Incarnation, what He brings to us. He’s actually freeing us to enter into the worship that Father, Son, and Spirit have been engaged in for all eternity. So that’s where worship now becomes not just some task we do or something we do on Sunday or some ministry we’re involved in. No, it’s the shape of our entire lives and what we’re going to be doing for all eternity.

So, it’s a lot bigger than how we sometimes just think of ministry like this one aspect: we’re going to worship today. We worship every day and every minute of the day because that’s what we’re made for.

So that kind of helps make the connection between the foundations and what we do in worship. And we do the same thing with discipleship, connect that with the life and ministry of Jesus. We see as we go through the Gospel stories, what is Jesus doing in His life every single day? When He’s doing ministry, what is He doing? He’s actually following the Father. Everything He does, He’s following the Father.

Especially in the book of Luke, you see this very clearly — everything He does in the Spirit. So, He’s not out there doing His own thing making stuff up as He goes. What does He say? I can do nothing; I only do what I see the Father doing.

He doesn’t do anything on His own. He’s doing everything as a follower of the Father, and that’s discipleship. And so that helps us unpack when we talk about discipleship, what we’re really talking about is following Christ. And we put those together.

And then when we talk about ministry — I like to use the word service. It’s a little broader, and it helps us escape some of the baggage that we may attach to the word ministry. But I like to connect that to the death of Christ.

What we see on the cross, there’s actually a window into the heart and character of God. This is a God who makes room for us, who actually lays His life down for another. So, it’s not just this one thing He does when He’s on the planet, if you will, it’s actually His whole orientation. What we see in Father, Son, and Spirit, in that moment, it’s that God for all eternity has been laying His life down. The Father makes room for the Son, and the Son makes room for the Father. Their whole orientation is to lay Their life down for one another. That’s who God is.

Of course, it doesn’t come with pain and suffering in the Godhead; it’s full of joy. That’s what life is all about, is making room for the other, that relationship.

Of course, when Jesus goes to the cross, He has pain and suffering because He’s having to fight against our orientation where we resist that. We don’t know how to lay our life down for one another. We live for ourselves, and Jesus has to undo that, so He goes to the cross. And that’s really, to me, where ministry springs from.

Ministry or service is participating in the death of Christ. When we serve another, when we do ministry, we are, in a sense, we’re laying our life down and focusing on the other. So, it’s not a task that we do to mark off the list. Oh, now I’ve done my service, now I can actually have a little time for myself.

But rather, it’s actually entering into, a little more deeply, the life we’re made for. Because we’re going to be serving for all eternity. And sometimes that could be like, really? That’s a bummer. Because our thinking is we don’t want to serve. I want to be served. We go on vacation; I want to be served. That’s the way we tend to think about things.

But when we really understand the joy and fullness of the eternal life of God and we see that They actually for all eternity have been serving one another, we have to repent of the way we think of service. And we’re actually made for service, and that’s where real life is.

That’s where the joy is. Yeah, in a sense, we’re called to die to self. And that’s very difficult, right? It’s really hard to go to the cross, to take up the cross daily and to die to self. However, there’s a resurrection.

To the resurrection, I link to fellowship because it’s at the point of resurrection that Jesus becomes the head, the new head of humanity. The new creation has begun. And if we go back to the garden, we see the fall. What essentially happened, what is the net result of the fall is loss of fellowship. Adam and Eve are now hiding in the garden. Why are they hiding? They have been alienated.

Their minds have been distorted. And now they are fearful of this God who has always been for them, Who’s there. But now they’re hiding. The resurrection is undoing all that. So now we’re being restored back to proper fellowship. In fellowship, we’re actually participating in the resurrection. The resurrected life of Christ is one way to look at it.

And then for the Ascension, when Jesus ascends, I like to link that to mission, witness. And I use the word sharing again to expand what’s going on there. This is one I think that gets truncated and tricky really quick.

People tend to think that evangelism is something we do here and now. It’s a task that we can only do in this lifetime. And we do it so other people can be saved, can come to know the Lord. But when the curtain rolls up and this life is over, we’re done. We’ve done our work. We put our time in. We don’t have to witness anymore. No more missions. No more evangelism.

But I think there’s a bigger way of looking at this. Witness and evangelism is actually part of the heart of God. In this way, God is a sharing God. He shares everything He has with us. And actually, in Father, Son, and Spirit, they share everything with one another. Everything’s shared. Nothing is held to themselves.

So, when God comes to us in Jesus Christ, He’s actually sharing Himself with us completely. And the Ascension is the culmination of that. Jesus ascends back to the right hand of the Father, and sends the Spirit, right? So, what is the Spirit? The Spirit is actually the life of Father and Son — that relationship, He’s sharing Himself with us.

So that’s what I would actually call mission; that’s what we’re doing. We’re trying to share with others this life of God. We’re trying to share who God is so others can be brought into it. And that’s a sharing that won’t end when the curtain rolls up.

So, we’re in the kingdom, right? We’re talking about kingdom living. For all eternity, we’re still going to be sharing. We’re going to be gazing upon Christ and sharing with one another how beautiful He is. We’re never going to grow tired of that. It’s like sharing something marvelous in this world as an analogy. Maybe it’s a sunset or some beautiful scenic overlook or something.

And you want to share it, right? You want to, wow, look at this and look at that. So, you’re always sharing it. But with Christ, it’s that we have a personal relationship with Him. C. S. Lewis brings this out. I think it’s in The Great Divorce. He does a good job in helping us picture this.

That is, in our personal relationship with Christ, it’s going to look different than, say, yours, Cara, or someone else’s. Because I’m unique. I’m a distinct person. And so that relationship’s going to have certain nuances that others don’t have. So, in the kingdom, I have something specific to share about the Lord that I have come to know.

And so, I can actually share that with you. And you’re going to have something unique and specific to share about the Lord that you know. So, for all eternity, we’re going to be sharing this. And we’re going to — it’s going to be fun. So, we’re still going to be on a mission, right? It’s just, it won’t be sharing with people who may be resisting it.

We’re going to want to share and receive from one another a little more who this God is, and since He’s eternal and as great as He is, we have all eternity to do that. And we will never grow bored of it. It’s hard to picture that because we tend to truncate mission to just this life and I would like the students to see beyond that. No, you’re actually participating in the life that you’re going to have for all eternity. And that expands a little bit and maybe helps remove some of the fear that we sometimes have with mission.

It doesn’t have to be that scary. It’s just sharing what we know of Christ, sharing who He is from our experience and what we’ve seen and from the way He’s revealed Himself to us in His word.

So that’s a very long answer to your question, sorry about that. But the reason why it’s a long answer is we’re trying to deal with the foundations, the theological foundations in the class and how that unfolds into the practice of ministry which is just another way of saying practice of kingdom living, actually living out the reality we have in Jesus Christ.

[00:21:01] Cara: Yeah, absolutely, that is such a rich course. It sounds like it really explores a rich full, holistic picture of what that looks like for a Christian ministry to be founded on and reflective of the full ministry of Jesus. I especially really love that image, this idea of mission as sharing and sharing that’s eternal because it’s reflective of who God is eternally, not just something that is an action on this side of eternity.

So, thank you for sharing that. And it does sound like this course is very rich, so this might be a hard question. But if you had to say one major takeaway from the course that would develop our practice of Kingdom Living, what would that be for students that might take this class?

[00:22:13] Lance: Yeah, actually it’s a fairly easy answer for that one because it is one of the main theological foundations that affects everything. And that is basically our union with Christ. We hit that the very first week, and it’s woven all the way through. So, understanding union with Christ is critical for ministry and life all together.

It changes everything. It really is the difference between grace and works. And it’s what God has accomplished in Jesus Christ. He has brought us into relationship with Him in a very intimate way in the Spirit. So, I’ll use this analogy, and it’s just an analogy. Sometimes they can get you in trouble, right?

But I don’t use this in my class, but it’s a way of talking about this aspect of union in Christ. Because what it does is it opens up the understanding of participation and that’s how we engage in ministry. And that’s how we engage in Kingdom Living. It’s a life of participation. But in order to participate, there has to be something to participate in.

And that is our union in Christ. So, this is my analogy. Just don’t let it go too far. It breaks down. But I like to look at union in Christ like this. It’s God has come down in Christ and given us a big hug. I know that’s kind of syrupy, but He’s given us a hug. And I use the word hug, H U G, to stand for holy union with God.

So that’s what He’s done in Christ. He has embraced His creation. He’s embraced us all in this holy union with God. Okay, so that’s one aspect of it. That’s the union, right? But it’s a relational union, which is why I like the picture of a hug. We are to respond to His embrace. There’s a response; it calls us to respond to it.

So, if somebody gives you a hug, what is the fitting response? It’s to hug back. So that’s the response. We embrace His embrace. So that’s what I would call participation. We’re not doing something new or different. We’re actually participating in what He’s giving us. So, we embrace back. We return the hug, which means something, right?

If you ever hug somebody, you have to actually conform to their shape. You can’t just hug in any old way. You hug according to how they are, who they are, right? So, there is a specificity in our response. It’s got to fit who He is.

For example, if you’ve ever hugged somebody who didn’t want to be hugged, have you ever done that? It’s a really awkward moment, right? Maybe they fold their arms, and you hug them and they’re just stiff in your arms. That’s a really awkward hug. And that’s a picture, I think, of what it means to be an unbeliever. It is to think that God doesn’t love us, that He doesn’t embrace us. Maybe we picture God is standing there with His arms folded, scowling at us, doesn’t want anything to do with us.

But in Jesus, what we actually come to see — and this is why Jesus, one of the reasons Jesus came, was to give us a revelation. He came to help us see, no, this Father actually loves you, and His arms are wide open for you. He has embraced you, so you can hug back. But what we do, instead, when we don’t see that full revelation, is we fold our arms.

And we don’t embrace, we don’t participate. And that’s actually a picture of hell, if you really want to get into that topic. That’s a good illustration for it. You’re actually refusing the grace that God gives you. And that makes it very awkward. And it’s not like the Father is going to say I’m not going to hug you anymore; I’m done with you. No, He’s always going to hug us.

And if we want to resist for all eternity and stand there with our arms folded and stiff, then that’s going to be hell for us for all eternity. So that analogy of union with Christ, like I said, I don’t really use that in my class. Maybe I will.

But I think it does apply when we’re talking about ministry or anything that we’re participating in what He’s doing. But that means it has a shape; it has a direction. We can’t just do anything we want, and say, oh, I’m participating in ministry. No, because it’s His ministry. It’s His hug, if you will.

And it’s got to conform to Him. It’s got to be fitting, if that makes sense. So that would be the main takeaway that kind of runs throughout the course. Because the last assignment in the course is the paper where the students are to work through these aspects of ministry, work through worship, discipleship, and fellowship and so on, and articulate a philosophy of ministry.

That takes into account these theological foundations and a primary one that I look for if students are listening. I want to make sure they understand what union in Christ means and how that affects all five of those areas of ministry and how you’re going about it. Because if you go into ministry without understanding that you’re in union with Christ, ministry is going to be a burden, it’s going to be fearful, and it’s going to chew you up, especially for pastors. Pastors can really get chewed up in ministry if they think they’re doing something for God and not participating with God. Huge difference. And it does have a huge effect on the experience of pastoring or doing any kind of ministry, really, if we see it that way.

So that, I would say that’s the major takeaway. The number one thing I hope students get, if they don’t get anything else, is to understand that aspect, that they’re in union with God. And therefore, it’s all about participating in what He’s doing.

[00:28:45] Cara: Yes, and as you talk about this course, and that key takeaway, that you want to make sure students get from the class, it’s really clear to me that our theological understanding of ministry does impact our practice in ministry.

[00:29:08] Lance: Yeah, that gets right to the relevant aspect of it, especially for those who are engaged in ministry or consider themselves ministry leaders. Like I just mentioned, ministry can really chew you up if we don’t understand whose ministry, it is and who we are participating in.

Yeah, when we talk about healthy leaders, healthy church rhythms one implication to make that practical is we really have to define what we mean by healthy, right? And the only way to do that is, again, to know the reality. So again, there’s nothing more relevant than reality.

Being a church leader, being a pastor or even just understanding what the church is, who the church belongs to, all those kinds of things will determine what we mean by healthy. I’ll just tell you this experience. When I got my doctorate, I did my dissertation on healthy church.

And what I wanted to do was, similar to this class, I wanted to find the foundations of it. So, what do we mean when we say healthy church? What does that mean? What are we actually measuring, right? So, I went through this grueling process of studying, and I’ve read every book I can find on healthy church.

There’s lots of them, and what I discovered a lot of times is a lot of the material written on Healthy Church really is just church growth material repackaged as healthy church approaches. So, we talk about being healthy, but when you really get into some of the material out there, what you’re really finding is church growth measured by numbers.

And that’s not bad; of course, yeah, we want our churches to grow numerically. However, that’s not the best way of measuring growth to determine health because for example, you can have some cults, some pretty odd types of churches, if you will, that are growing exponentially. But I wouldn’t say that’s healthy, right?

Because that’s not what the church is. And you can think of other examples of that. Cancer, for example, grows, but it’s not healthy growth. So, you really have to define what it is that we’re talking about to understand what growth really looks like. And so what we’re talking about is relationship with the Lord.

So, what is growth in that term? How do we measure that kind of growth? And we would measure it with faithfulness. It’s being faithful. In other words, we trust this Lord that we belong to. And the more we come to know Him, the more our trust in Him will grow. That’s probably a better way of measuring health. Are we growing to know the Lord, right? Are we growing in our faith? Are we growing to trust Him?

It’s funny, as I went through this long process of writing this dissertation and studying in all these books and all these different authors and looking at all these different case studies and trying to figure out what it is that healthy church really is and what is the practical implication of it, and in the end, I just laughed. I was like I’ve gone through all this work, read all these books, and written hundreds of pages, and in the end the takeaway I got was this: prayer and study. That was it. You got to be kidding me. All this — I didn’t need to write a dissertation to come to that conclusion, right?

Seemed like that’s something I should already know. But it was really that simple. It really was, because prayer and study really is a direct participation in the life of Father, Son, and Spirit. That is how we humbly come before Him and receive the life He has for us. And that was actually really eye-opening for me to see that it’s really that simple.

And we just tend to complicate it like crazy in the church when we start getting into ministry and trying to be effective and efficient and successful. And what happens in our culture, terminology, and concepts, and ideas infiltrate what we’re doing, and we forget that health is determined by our relationship in Christ. It’s not measured by other secular measurements.

It doesn’t mean there aren’t other things that obviously are part of the church, but the primary, the center, the focus is that — especially when it comes to healthy leader — we were talking about the five areas that I divide the class up in.

I actually have a section where I talk about what does it look like to be a healthy leader, or say a pastor, to be more specific. And I use each of those things. For example, the first one on worship: a healthy leader is first and primary a worshipper of the Lord. That’s what it means to be a healthy leader, is to be a worshipper.

And the opposite of being a worshipper of the Lord is called idolatry. And idolatry leads to bondage, whereas Christ-centered worship, leads to freedom. And I’ve heard, I don’t remember who said this, but someone said that he has found that pastors are some of the most free people he’s ever met, but they can also be some of the most bound people, if you will, in bondage.

So, it depends on your orientation, who you’re worshiping. And then as a disciple, a healthy leader is a disciple, right? There’s always so much talk about leadership, and there’s we talk about leadership in the class a lot. And I think sometimes we get confused because leadership, typically in worldly terms, is being top dog and everybody follows me and does it my way. But that’s actually not the picture we get of Jesus as a leader.

Essentially, you don’t really — as you go through the Gospels, you’re not really being told that Jesus was a great leader. He was actually a great follower. Everything He does is following the Father. He only does what the Spirit leads Him to do. And sometimes we’ll say, “Oh, how do you know you’re a good leader? Look behind you and see who’s following.”

And I say there’s some truth to that, but it doesn’t really hold up to how Jesus led, right? Because when He went to the cross, first, He didn’t look behind Him. He set His face to the cross and He went forward. But had He looked behind Him, He would have found that nobody was following.

So, does that mean Jesus was not a good leader? No, He was a great follower. He was following the Father, doing His will. And in doing that — yes, I’m using words here, semantics but — in doing that, yes, He was a leader but challenged people’s understanding. And when we talk about leadership, we’re really talking about following.

And maybe here’s another quick analogy to illustrate this, and it falls apart pretty quick too. But in Christian circles, in ministry, I say especially for a pastor, you can’t be a good leader without being a good follower. It’s like these — I don’t know, there’s probably a term for this — but have you ever been in a big dance?

This happens at camp dances at times. Somebody will start a line, right? And you put your hands on the shoulders of the person in front of you, and somebody puts their hands on your shoulders, and this line forms, and the line worms around the dance floor. You ever done that?

I think that’s fairly decent picture of what I’m talking about. So, whoever starts the line, I guess you can say that would be Jesus Christ, and we’re just following Him. But somewhere in that line, when you’re a leader, you’re only an effective leader, as long as you’re following the person in front of you, right?

Long as you keep your hands on that person and follow in step, then the person behind you can follow the lead. But are you really being a leader or are you being a follower? The best leaders are good followers. That analogy does break down at some point, but it’s a picture of understanding leadership as a disciple.

First and foremost, we’re disciples. That’s what it is. Because if we start thinking we’re leaders in the sense that I’ve got to get people to point A to point B, that’s going to crush you. It’s going to wear you out. Whereas, again, look at Jesus, He goes to the cross, nobody’s following Him, but He goes for the joy put before Him.

He doesn’t get to the end, “Man, I didn’t get anybody to follow me. I’m a failure.” No, not at all. He’s following the Father wherever that leads.

I think that gives a lot of freedom for pastors who may feel like their ministry was a failure, or they’re not good leaders. Again, how do we measure that? Faithfulness. You’re faithful to the one you’re serving, and the one you’re following. And that’s the third thing I would talk about is healthy leaders are servants.

That’s what ministry is, serving. However, it can’t be self-serving. That’s sometimes what actually happens where self-serving leaders do things that, in the end, serve ourselves, and that leads to bondage. But we’re serving Christ that leads to freedom.

And that’s one of the things that comes up in one of the books we have in the class that was really an eye-opener for me. And that was understanding that when we do ministry, when we’re serving, we’re not actually serving our communities, our churches, our supervisors. We’re actually serving the Father. We do ministry through the Father.

I never thought about it that way. I always think, don’t we serve, don’t we minister to the world? No, not directly. We minister to the Father. This is what we see Jesus doing. He actually is ministering to the Father for the sake of the world.

So, there’s a difference there. So, for pastors and church leaders to understand that our service is to God. First and foremost, that’s our service. And then, because of that, as a result of that, there’s a benefit to the world. So yeah, we can say we serve our communities, and we know what we mean by that.

But just to help understand, there’s a freedom in knowing that what we’re doing. And our service is primarily to the Father. So, what that does is it frees us up to follow what God is leading us to do. And it protects us from the bondage of basically being enslaved by our community or even our church members.

If we think we’re serving them directly, then we’re going to need their support, their praise. We need to know they’re following us. But if our service is to the Father, for the sake of the world, then we just serve Him. And we don’t have to fret about people not liking our service, if that makes sense. Because sometimes serving God means sharing things that people don’t want to hear.

There are passages that our culture doesn’t want to hear these days. But if you’re really going to do ministry and be faithful to God’s word, you’re going to have to share those aspects of Kingdom Living may lead to some crucifixion, if you will, because people don’t want to hear it.

But you don’t have to worry about that. If people reject what you’re saying, that’s okay because you’re not actually serving them, if that makes sense. It’s confusing because you are serving them, but you’re serving the Father by doing His will. And that is actually the greatest service you can render to the world.

But then the last thing you have for healthy leaders, I’d encourage them to understand you’re a person. You are a person. So, individualism can lead to bondage. If we’re leading from an individualism type of thinking, that’s going to lead to bondage. But person or people in a relationship — that’s what it means to be a person. You’re in relationship.

So, leadership is always going to be in relationship primarily to God, to Jesus Christ. And then that will flow out into our relationships with others.

And the last one — I actually used a whole book for this because I think it’s a great perspective. It’s The Steward Leader by Scott Rodin. Healthy leaders are stewards. They’re stewards, meaning they’re not owners. They don’t see their churches as their churches. It’s the church, it belongs to Christ. Their ministries aren’t their ministries. It’s Christ’s ministry. And so on.

They’re just called to be stewards. And that really helps us think through some of these issues. And, again, it feeds into the understanding of we’re participating. This is not our show. It’s not what we’re doing. It’s what the Father’s doing. It’s His ministry. Jesus is the head of the church; we are not.

And that really frees us up. It makes ministry actually a lot of fun because we don’t have to worry about the results. God gets the results. He just calls us along to participate. And it’s a lot of fun. I think about the disciples following Jesus. They probably had a lot of fun along the way.

They got to see some pretty amazing things that Jesus did. The disciples did not turn water into wine. Jesus did, but they got to be part of that. That’s pretty cool. And ministries are a lot that way.

When I was a pastor, there were things that happened that I did not expect. Responses and certain things that happened that I didn’t do that. I know I didn’t do that. That was pretty amazing. That’s when ministry is a lot of fun, when you hold on to it loosely, and you just participate, and you see what God does. He does some amazing things. But where it gets scary is when we think we’ve got to produce the results. We got to do something amazing.

We got to get this person to respond in this way, or we got to get this end result. Then you just start beating yourself up when you don’t get those end results, but when we can relax and just faithfully serve Him, and then see what He does with it, ministry can be a blast. It really can be.

And there’s a lot of freedom in it. And I really try to help students see that. Because I was a pastor for a while, and I’ve seen pastors get chewed up in ministry. And really, it’s because of not seeing who God is and our relationship to Him. So, it makes a huge difference, especially for church leaders.

So that’s another long answer to your question.

[00:45:00] Cara: Lance, thank you so much for sharing. And I think as you share, it has become really clear that the foundations and especially the theological foundations of ministry have really significant implications to our practice of ministry and how we grow and develop as healthy leaders.

And so, I want to encourage our listeners and our leaders to look into this course, to talk with your leadership team, to talk with your supervisor and consider if, and when an appropriate time would be for you to take or even audit this class. Because it sounds like this is a course that is relevant to any of our ministry leaders in GCI.

So again, thank you so much, Lance, for giving us a lot to think about, a lot to meditate on and for teaching this class. We really appreciate all that you have to offer because of all that God has given to you.

And as is our practice with GC Podcast, I’d like to end our show with the word of prayer. And so, would you be willing to pray for our churches, our pastors, and our ministry leaders in GCI?

[00:46:29] Lance: Yes, love to. Thank you very much. Now let’s pray together.

Our heavenly Father, Lord, thank you so much for this opportunity to explore a little more of who You are and the difference that makes in knowing You and participating with You.

Lord, we thank You for Your word to us, that You’re always speaking to us, calling us to Yourself. And today we think specifically of pastors and leaders in ministry, those who are actively serving You in the church. And we thank you for the great privilege that is and the opportunity that it gives to grow in knowing You a little more.

And as we grow to know You more, we do grow in faith. We grow to trust You because You are trustworthy. And so, I just want to ask a blessing on our pastors, specifically church leaders in our churches who maybe are struggling, who are feeling the weight and burden that we place on ourselves in ministry and ask that You can free them. Help them see You in a new light, to see You for who You actually are, and where there can be a freedom, a lightness that comes, that light yoke that You give us that comes in knowing You.

So, Lord, we just ask that blessing on them, and we thank You for being a blessing. God, You bless us, and You call us into ministry not to burden us and not that You need us but because You love us, and You want us to enjoy the life You’ve given us to share in. And there’s so many opportunities in ministry to participate in the life of Your Son that You sent to us. So, Lord, we thank You, and we love You for all the amazing things You’ve done for us, and for who You are. And we just pray all this in Jesus’ name. Amen.

[00:48:18] Cara: Amen. Well friends, that’s all we have for today. So, until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thanks for listening to the GC Podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org.

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Theological Ethics w/ Gary Deddo

Welcome to the GC Podcast. This year, we’re centering on Kingdom Culture and exploring how it transforms ministry and equips leaders for kingdom living. Through conversations with Grace Communion Seminary professors and a few other guests, we’ll explore how their teachings equip ministry leaders to embody kingdom values.

This is the GC Podcast, where we help you grow into the healthiest ministry leader you can be. Sharing practical insights and best practices from the context of Grace Communion International Churches. Here’s your host, Cara Garrity.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity. And today we are blessed to have Dr. Gary Deddo as our guest. Dr. Deddo is a professor at Grace Communion Seminary and has been participating in GCI and GCS since 2012.

And today for our first episode of 2025, we are going to begin exploring our theme of kingdom living through exploring particularly the course of theological ethics that Dr. Deddo teaches at Grace Community Seminary. So, thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Deddo.

[00:01:35] Gary: Thank you, Cara. It’s a privilege to be with you and to address your audience.

I’m very happy to talk about the seminary and in particular this class that we call Theological Ethics. But that is a very important topic and very complex as anytime you hear the word ethics everybody gets stiff and maybe a bit worried. And so, it’s a huge topic.

It is complex, complicated in a way, but that’s what you need a class for, right? You need a class to have time, to have resources, to think and to talk and interact with others and to work things through, to pray things through, to study scripture that’s relevant to the topic. So, it really does take a good amount of time and some discipline.

And usually, a class helps us be disciplined. You’d make out plans and say I want to read this book, or I want to look into this. And then, of course, you don’t. But a class helps because you’re working with others. And so certainly this topic, theological ethics, does call for that.

And so usually we have a great time. This is, I think, the fourth time we’ve had the class, and it’s always been very productive.

And part of it is, it does take time, and it does take effort. And there’s so many complications, and there’s also many pressures on us to try to discern what’s good, what’s true, what’s right, what I ought to do. And a lot of times, of course, we’re thinking about what others ought to do and that’s certainly part of it, but we have to start with ourselves.

Yeah, we have a class on it that lasts twelve weeks and people put in about, oh, twelve hours a week for each of those weeks to work things through. We have a couple of textbooks.

But the topic itself is important. We call it theological ethics. And the reason we qualify the word ethics with theological is because not all thinking about right and wrong, not all teaching about right and wrong, is theological. That is, it doesn’t connect with who God is or who a particular god is or who the Christian God is.

And in this class, we want to link together who God is — the God revealed in Jesus Christ according to Scripture — and then see what does that have to do with how we live our lives, how we discern what’s good and right, how we avoid being deceived or used, or use others or treat others poorly.

So, you want to connect together theology, which is our knowledge and faith in the living God, and how that then yields fruit in our lives: what we do, what we think, how we act, how we react. So, it’s a theological ethic.

Often without the connection between who God is and trusting in God, we just do what’s right because we just have a feeling, and then we think about it later. Or we’ve heard someone say something, and it sounded good to us, so we went with it. Or sometimes it’s out of guilt or fear or anxiety that we decide to act a certain way, react a certain way, and there’s not a lot of prayer; there’s not a lot of thought.

Or later on we realize, wow, I didn’t take into consideration that. Wow, if I would have realized that, I probably would have decided differently or reacted differently or decided differently.

We want to bring our theology, our faith, our worship, our prayer together with what we think and decide and how we react and reply, and yes, even sometimes how we vote, what that adds up to. So, it’s a theological ethic. In the biblical way to talk about this comes up, actually, in Romans chapter 1. And then Romans 16, the last chapter as well, Paul says his whole ministry is to do nothing other than to bring about the obedience of faith. That phrase, the obedience of faith, that’s another way to talk about what a theological ethic is about. It’s trying to discern and prepare ourselves to do what is good and right according to God’s will and way and God’s heart and mind, and to do that out of trust or faith in the living God, as if God is real, as if God is present, as if God is active, as if God knows better than we do, and what’s the best for us.

And that’s why we hear in His word, we’re given directions as to which way to go, which ways to decide. So, we obey by faith, out of trust. So, it’s a part of our worship relationship with the living God. Rather than just stoic, “I have to do it,” or there’s a rule about it, so I better, or someone’s going to be unhappy with me, or I’m going to be unhappy with myself.

Rather, the only obedience — a response to God’s will and way and heart and mind — is to trust Him. So that’s another way to talk about the obedience to God. The obedience of faith is another way to talk about a theological ethic.

So that’s what we’re looking into. And of course, you can’t figure everything out in a class. That’s not the purpose of it. And anybody would already immediately recognize, no, we’re probably not going to do that. And we don’t. The point really is to be better prepared. That’s the point. How can we get better prepared? And how can we find others who can help us get better prepared? And how we might be able to help others get better prepared to hear the Word of God, to trust God, so that we’re free, and we see the good and right of what God is calling us to do. We’re getting better prepared by coming together, praying together, studying Scripture together, and reading others who have worked through the matters of good faith and evil, right and wrong better and worse. So that’s what we do in the class. And that’s what theological ethics is.

So, we could talk about also what it has to do with, you asked about the practice or the nature of the kingdom of God. That’s another part of it too. Where do ethics really come from?

As we know, a kingdom is a group of people. Jesus talks about He has come, and the kingdom is present among you when He comes. So, it’s about relationships. And of course, ethics isn’t anything …

[00:09:35] Cara: Yes. And I thank you for sharing that. And I took this course a couple years ago and what you’ve shared, I think that as someone who’s taken the course that I want to highlight for our listeners is like you said, we can’t learn and cover everything.

We can’t learn and cover everything in just one course. But what I found really helpful and practical is that we really dove into the process, right? Like how do we approach it and go about. And as you said, that’s the theological approach to ethics. And so, as you said, the preparation for that.

And so, I think that is clear with how that really has to do with our theme for 2025 of kingdom living. it really informs how do we live and how do we move through this world, right? Like you said, how do we discern as we do that?

And so, I wonder because it seems like this course and my personal experience, and as you describe it, has a very practical impact on our lives as disciples of Jesus.

What if you had to name just one — and I know that can be difficult. What would be one major takeaway from this course that would develop a student’s practice of kingdom living if they’ve taken the course?

[00:11:17] Gary: Yes, a lot of it is just dealing with Scripture that really directs us in our lives as to what’s important.

Obviously, we start with the love of — the two commandments, love of God and love of neighbor. So just dealing with Scripture and all that it says. What does it say about yes, caring for the poor or loving your neighbor? All these kinds of things that are there. So, part of it is just a survey of Scripture that starts from the Old Testament and then runs to the New Testament.

But it does focus on sorting out the nature of love, and I think there’s lots of confusion about that. And that’s a problem. Everybody says you ought to be loving, and you ought to be kind. But the thing is, what do you mean and what does that look like in a particular situation?

And it turns out that in the New Testament, for instance love really requires knowledge. You have to know something in order to be loving. You have to know something about what’s true. You have to know something about what is good. So, we explore that so that your love is not an unloving love or a less than good kindness.

But there’s a lot of very simple understandings of love and kindness that float around. And everybody thinks you can instantly and immediately know what it is. So, we delve a lot into what it means to love a neighbor, and in various situations, what it might add up to.

And so, it’s more than just following rules and things. Even rules you can find in Scripture a lot of times is asking, if I want to love my neighbor in this situation, what do I do? What if they’re on a death bed? What if they were in a car accident? What if they’ve lied to me? What if I’ve lied to them? Things like that. So, a lot of it is sorting through what is loving and kind.

I suppose another word that we looked into is the notion of justice. There’s a lot of talk about justice and social justice, but what is it? What does it look like? How do I as an individual deal with it? Or how does a government deal with it? And those are two very different issues to be sorted through because what governments could and should do can be very different than what an individual or a local church should do.

So, we look through a lot of these very basic terms that, at first, seem easy: love, kindness, justice. And then try to see what it really adds up to and prepare for situations that might arise. So that’s a lot of kind of focusing on these key issues, key matters to sort through much more carefully and be better prepared.

[00:14:39] Cara: Excellent. Thank you for sharing that Dr. Deddo. And absolutely, I can see that very practical and tangible connection to this idea of kingdom living. And as we said in the opening, this podcast in particular is focused on best ministry practices for GCI leaders in our context of church ministry.

And so, I’m wondering how does a theological approach to ethics — because as you said, not all approaches to ethics are necessarily theological. So how does a theological approach to ethics impact or inform and shape our practice of ministry?

[00:15:34] Gary: The two do need to go together. So, one of the things is we often if we’re involved in ministry or serving others, sometimes that involves setting things up, organizing things, just making decisions, or sometimes encouraging people to do or participate in certain things. But on what basis do we motivate people to do something, to get involved, to invest themselves in an activity, in a relationship, in a program, really in anything?

And it’s very easy to go to Scripture and just pull out particular verses to do this and to do that. You can take a big, huge one, “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” Wow. That’s a good thing. You can motivate people by just issuing kind of imperatives and ones that you find in the Bible. Love your neighbor. “If you have love for one another, then people will know you’re my disciple.”

So, love one another. So, you can just tell people things to do sometimes they’re ethical things, what are good and right to do and avoid wrong, bad, evil, harmful things. And other times they’re practical, but always we’re often in situations of kind of motivating people, but it makes a difference how you motivate people, just barking commands at people doesn’t really do it.

It creates a kind of stoic response. “Okay, I have to do this because someone is requiring it of me; God or the ministry leader is requiring this of me. And so, I better, if I want to stay in their favor.” So, we can just call these categories imperatives. Do this. It’s a command, an imperative, it’s imperative that you do this.

But that’s really not how all of Scripture works, any of Scripture works, because the word of God does not work that way. Jesus doesn’t work that way. Paul doesn’t work that way in his writings. So, to go back to the Philippians, “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” You have to — the reason why, the motivational frame is because “God is at work in you, both to do and to will, according to His good pleasure.”

Oh, you mean I can count on that? I can count on God being at work in me and to give me the will and to do what’s good and right, and to be, do, be involved in what the things God is involved in? Wow. If I can count on that, I guess I can think about working out my salvation. How do I live out my life under the kingship of Christ, under his leadership?

And everything in Scripture is put together that way, even if you go back to the Old Testament. What we hear before we get the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 is “I am the Lord your God who took you out of Egypt, so you shall have no other gods.” If you miss the first part, you just hear, you shall have no other gods. You’re left hanging in midair. It just becomes an act of pure will. I’ll get out [inaudible], but that’s not how it works. God says, you can count on me. I’m the kind of God this takes you and has taken you out of the wilderness, sets you free from Egypt. That’s the kind of God I am.

All right, so you’re not going to have any other gods. Which God would you like? The fly God? How about the frog God? What did they do for you, right? None of these gods, they’re not even going to be tempted to worship those gods. None of those gods delivered them. They all enslaved them.

Part of ministry practice is providing people the proper motivation, which is to trust in the living God.

James Torrance, for instance, who I studied with, called these the indicatives of grace. They indicate the God who is gracious, the character, the nature, the purpose, the mind, the heart of God that we see and hear in Jesus. God is like Jesus all the way down. So, when you see, okay, so that’s who I’m obeying.

That’s whose instructions I’m listening to. That’s the one I’m trusting in is God. I am going to attempt to do this, to react this way, to behave this way to make this decision rather than that. So again, it’s another way to get at the obedience of faith. So, in ministry, we want to put forward what builds faith.

It’s talking about who God is, the indicatives of grace. This is who God is, this is what He provides. He is over us as the Father, He’s with us as the Son, and He’s at work among us and even in us by the Holy Spirit. This God is giving us all this. We can trust Him for this. Okay, I guess I can forgive my enemy, because God is overseeing all this.

I’m not just doing a naked act of will stoically, but it’s the obedience of faith, or it’s obeying a command, an imperative, because I’m trusting in the indicative of grace that tells me and reminds me, again and again, which I need to be, of who this God is.

And I can tell the truth because I’m trusting God to oversee this. I can do what is good and right. Because it is good and right. Because I know God knows more than I do. And He wants the best for me. He’s not just making up rules and saying, do it just to prove yourself. He’s saying this is the way, walk in it. It’s the way that leads to life.

Oh, maybe God knows something about life. I don’t know. So, I think I’ll go in that direction. So, it’s really ministry as motivating people on the proper basis so that it frees them to obey, frees them to do, frees them to participate. It frees them to serve others in the way Jesus wants us to and enables us to, otherwise we’re hanging in midair.

And so often I see preachers and things on podcasts and others just barking commands, but they don’t give them anything to go on. There’s no fuel in the tank. And that sets people up, either to just give up or just be stoic and hardened. And that’s not living under the lordship of Christ and all. So I think that would be, and in theological ethics we talk about that motivational framework for why we live the whole of the Christian life in a way that shows who Jesus is as Lord, as Savior, as Redeemer, as the one who loves us and the one who provides for us and gives us that great hope. So maybe some of that would be useful.

[00:24:10] Cara: Absolutely. Because as you say that, and you talk about the role of motivation in the practice of ministry, often that does come up, and how, when we have a theological basis and approach to ethics, how that really transforms or it’s foundational to how we approach how we exist in our ministries and community. And even as you’re talking about that motivation, I can’t help but think that completely transforms even our journey of discipleship, right?

[00:25:02] Gary: Yes, it does. Yeah. It gets down to the bottom. It’s foundational.

[00:25:06] Cara: Yes. Yes. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think that this theological approach is really key in our practices of ministry as leaders. And part of that for us and in GCI is that we have this vision of Healthy Church and healthy leaders that we’re wanting to grow continuously towards health ongoing, again and over towards the healthiest expressions that we can, as God enables us to.

And so, I’m wondering what practical implications or practices does this have for our living out of this vision for the development of healthy leadership and healthy church rhythms in our local congregations?

[00:26:12] Gary: One time I heard a pastor talk about the idea is there’s two elements to the Christian life. One is being a faithful and the other is being a healthy. You want faithful members and leaders who are also growing in health. In some ways, then growing as a disciple and taking time to sort through issues about the nature of the Christian life and therefore the nature of all our relationships, first with God and then with others, those that are near and those that are further away.

But it really depends upon — you can’t really get out ahead, help others get ahead of where you are. God can use us, of course, always uses us more than we think or know, thankfully because He is faithful and maybe that’s one of the places to start: a healthy leader knows that God is more faithful than we are.

He’s not dependent upon us. It’s always, to make it happen, He’s inviting us along to participate in what He’s doing, which is much greater than what we can do. So, we should never kind of collapse and think somehow — and again, sometimes how we get motivated, how we are being motivated, or sometimes we motivate others improperly is we make it sound as if God can’t be any more faithful than we are.

If that’s the case, it’s over. Forget it. We’re done. We’re cooked. We quit. Throw in the towel. No, God is always being more faithful. That’s why we even bothered to be involved in the Christian life, in the Christian community. And if we’re exercising leadership, it all comes out of our growing relationship with God and knowing the fullness of His word, not just little bits and pieces and not taking them out of context. And not laying them on others out of context, like the imperatives apart from the indicatives of grace. This is who God is, so this is why we do this and why we follow this.

Looking deeply into these things — someone God calls to be a little bit out ahead, perhaps just to be ahead just because they have the time to do it, and they have the motivation that God has given them, or they have the available resources. But if there’s going to be any kind of leading in a good and right direction or way, somebody has to have discerned, especially when there’s differences of opinion.

And so here, when we get to the ethical issues, what I find is there’s not enough space, times, and places for people to talk and think about these things, and for some people to get ahead just by thinking and praying and reading and finding the best resources, in this case, those who are also teaching, thinking theologically about how to live the Christian life, do what is good and right and true.

So, somebody has to be out ahead of that, being better prepared, not to boast, but of course to enable others to catch up. So, a healthy leader, first of all, has to be trying to be faithful, that is, trust in the living God and know His word and then sort through things, especially if there’s complications.

And of course, we see this in the election years and things like that. There’s the potential of difference and differences of opinion, and sometimes they can be strong, and sometimes there’s just confusion, or people are afraid to talk to one another.

Usually, God uses someone who’s better prepared, or hopefully better prepared, then to advise people or to route people to the best resources that are available on this topic or that topic because there’s just a lot of pressures, right? Individuals, when we’re talking about doing what is good and right, true, and yes, truly loving, truly it’s not easy to discern, and there’s lots of pressures.

So, we can help one another, but usually when it’s complicated and sometimes, especially it’s sometimes it can be very personal, right? These decisions that are being made can be very personal. And should I tell somebody, my employer, about another fellow employee who is being dishonest, who’s stealing or cheating somehow? These can be, and more personal than that, especially when we get to the sexual issues, super personal.

So that takes a lot of preparation and sometimes it actually takes research. You have to know what’s what. You can’t just hear something somewhere saying, oh, that’s the truth. Yeah. The media, and of course, especially if you go to social media, you can hear a million different things. Who’s going to help us sort it through?

This is what healthy leaders can participate in by putting aside time and effort to get prepared to help others. But it has to start with, not out of panic, certainly not out of pride or arrogance, but a desire of trusting God to be faithful and saying maybe because God is faithful, I can be prepared myself and then enable others to sort through some of these difficult things and maybe to help people not just react to each other, but sort it out.

That would be something that might be relevant here.

[00:33:18] Cara: And that gives us, I think, a lot to think about for our listeners. It gives me a lot to think about, even coming back to reflect on the course materials right after the fact, for myself. And I do encourage our listeners to consider enrolling in this course at the appropriate time next week that it’s offered. Speak with your teams, your church leaders, your ecclesiastical supervisor and consider and explore if this is something that is, in terms of the course at GCS, that is appropriate for you. And if not I would still encourage you, as Dr. Deddo has been suggesting to us, to work alongside your fellow leaders to put aside that time to work together in that preparedness, because I think what we can take away from even just the short time in this episode is that theological ethics matter.

They matter for our day-to-day living as disciples. They matter for our health as leaders, and they matter for our health as a local church and our continued growth in that. And so I encourage you all to continue to press into this, to continue to explore and sort out, alongside one another in community with those who, maybe as Dr. Deddo said, have spent a little bit more time sorting out so that we can come alongside one another in this journey of a theological ethic.

I would ask, as we typically do with GC Podcasts, that we would end in prayer. I want to thank you for taking the time to join us today, Dr. Deddo. This was a very rich conversation. Like I said, you’ve left me, and I’m sure our listeners, with a lot to think about. And so, I would ask, would you be willing to pray for our churches and our pastors and ministry leaders in GCI as they pursue this exploration and embodiment of a theological ethic?

[00:36:05] Gary: Sure. Thanks, Cara. It’s been a pleasure and privilege to be with you all. So, let’s join in prayer for a minute here.

Gracious God, we are so grateful that we know You. We have seen, especially in Jesus Christ, Your goodness, Your truth, Your light. The fact that You are a god of life and that You have come to give us life, and life abundantly, and to not only show us a way to live, but You are the way, as we trust in You. You are the way, the truth, and the life. Lord, where would we be if You hadn’t made Yourself known to us and come to us personally and addressed us as Your children, as son and daughter. Lord, where would we be?

We’re so grateful. We’re so thankful that we have Your word preserved for us. We’re not lost. We’re not just pushed and shoved around by every wind of doctrine, or wind of ethic, or wind of a social political agenda. Lord, we come unto You, and we put our trust in You now, even as we offer ourselves to You — not dead sacrifices, but sacrifices full of the life that You have given us that we might live under Your word, live in the light of Your love and trust in Your goodness and the goodness of Your ways.

I thank You that You’ve provided us with each other throughout GCI and GCS and beyond as resources. Lord, it’s those whose lives You’re working in and among, and Lord, we trust You for being the good shepherd. We’re the dumb sheep. We need Your light. We need Your word. We need to hear Your word through others who know You well and You have prepared.

And yeah, we trust You as our good shepherd that You know how to get through to us, Your dumb sheep. You can correct us, You can guide us, You can lead us, You can protect us. And so, we look to You; we trust You in all these ways. And for all those who are listening to this podcast, we pray for Your presence to be with them, for You to speak through Your word to them and to provide the support and encouragement and to protect them from deceit from being, manipulated by guilt or fear or anxiety.

That Your word would break through, Your presence would be with each one especially if they’re facing challenges right here, right now today, even as they listen. That we may praise You and glorify You and celebrate Your faithfulness that even yields faithfulness. Amen.

[00:39:52] Cara: That’s all we have for today. So, until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thanks for listening to the GC Podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org.

The post Theological Ethics w/ Dr. Gary Deddo first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Sharing God’s Story in and Through Your Life

Cara Garrity: Welcome to GC Podcast, a podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience. In this episode, we welcome Jeff Broadnax, who will be leading us in sharing our testimonies and what God is up to in our everyday lives. We invite you to co-create your own experiences of spiritual formation through personal and communal practices.

We believe that through such personal and communal practices, we open ourselves and surrender to the work of the Holy Spirit in and through us. May the work of the Holy Spirit in our midst grow us up into the healthiest participants in the ministry of Christ that we can be, to the glory of the Father. Amen.

Jeff: Good morning. I’m Jeff Broadnax, regional director with GCI here in the Eastern region. I’ve served as a pastor for 34 years. And the last few, I’ve been serving as a regional director where I serve pastors. And I help pastors, not only lead their congregations, but help their congregations do the kind of thing that I want to talk about today.

And that is to learn to see and share God’s story through their own life story. I’m honored to be here today and share this with you, and I hope you’ll take the journey with me because this one is a personal one. It’s one that will allow each of us to stop and to reflect and to pay attention to not only what God is doing, but what God has already done.

Because very often when we look at what God has already done in our world and in our lives, it gives us clarity as to what he is doing and frankly what he will do. So, let’s begin with prayer. And then I want to walk you through just a couple of passages of scripture as we move into this clarifying discussion for reflection, for implementation, and for a passionate living sent, of sharing God’s story through our lives.

God, you are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and we are grateful that we can come and know that you know us, but not just that you know us, but that you specifically made us. You specifically designed the two cells that would come together to make us. That is not just unique, it is powerful.

And what you want from us is that we will see you and that we will see that we don’t have to be anybody else in the world. We just have to be who you’ve created us to be, to come to discover why you made us, why you use us, why you allow us to reflect you very specifically and uniquely in the world.

And so today, as we reflect, it is our desire to be able to see from you what you are doing in our lives. I pray, Lord, that you will bless the words that are spoken to actually be a clear path to a deeper understanding and a deeper discovery or removing of the cover of what you’ve been doing in our lives and what you will continue to do.

And so, we thank you. And in Jesus’ name, do we pray. Amen.

In the book of Acts 1, it was that moment where Jesus was standing before the disciples, and he was about to ascend. And the disciples asked him if it was now the time to restore Israel. And Jesus went on to tell them in Acts 1:7, that’s not what I want you to worry about; I don’t want you to focus on those things. The time and the seasons are not given for you to know.

But he does say in verse 8, “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

And at that point, he was taken up.

And I want to focus on the statement that he made that you will be my witnesses. We know from our 21st century court of law that a witness is somebody who goes and they make an oath to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth with the help of God. And if you can, if we can filter that back through what Jesus was saying, cause that’s really what he was saying.

He was saying, you’re going to be a person who will be in Jerusalem and Judea and all of Samaria and the ends of the earth. You’re going to go where you’re safe, where you’re comfortable, where you’re slightly uncomfortable and where sometimes you might be scared to death. And you’re going to tell what you’ve seen, heard and experienced about me.

The Greek word for witness there is martyr. And so, when we think of martyrs, we often think of people who’ve given their lives, in death, for something, but really what that word is meaning in Greek — it may come to that. But what he’s saying is that a witness, or someone who operates in that “martyr,” is somebody who will tell the whole story, tell the whole truth, tell the life story.

And sometimes even telling that hard truth may cost them everything, but they stand on that truth. They stand on that story. And so, what Jesus is saying is he wanted the disciples to be ones who would tell the life story, his story through their lives. Because even with the twelve, none of them had the same story.

Each one of them had a different experience with Jesus, even though they shared some things in common. In Matthew 28, I think this is talking about that same period of time, we call this the Great Commission. But Jesus says, because all authority is his in heaven and earth, he says, I want you to go. And as you go, I want you to make disciples, baptizing people, and teaching them everything I’ve commanded you. And remember, I’m with you to the end of the age.

And I think sometimes for us, it could be easy to teach lessons or principles that Jesus taught. Jesus taught one time about light and salt. We could tell that story, but what if we, instead of just telling the details or the facts of the story, what if we started the story by saying, one time we were with Jesus, and it was this big crowd of people. And when we were sitting there, here’s what we were experiencing while we were going through it. And then he started talking to them about salt and about light, and it was just the coolest thing for me because I remember watching this one woman, in her eyes I saw something special in her eyes and it hit me different.

You see, when you tell the story through that lens if the disciples were to tell the story through the way it happened, the way they experienced it, it might have changed quite a bit about how it’s received.

That’s what Jesus is getting at, I believe, when he says teach them everything. It’s not just about getting a set of doctrines and teaching those doctrines. I believe Jesus is trying to get them to teach about the private conversations he was having with them as they were walking along the way, or when they were sitting in a house, or when they were experiencing somebody who got healed.

Tell the story through the eyes of the story.

When Peter wrote later in 1 Peter 3:15, when he told us to set apart the Lord in our hearts and be ready always to give an answer for the reason that we have hope in you and to do it with meekness and reverence toward God, Peter had so many stories that he could tell. He had so many things, so many moments, and they weren’t just about the facts.

Peter had been able to see his life story come full circle in so many ways. One of the amazing things you should do, we could do, is actually go back and look at Peter’s story and see how many things Jesus does more than once in very specific ways in Peter’s life.

Like the time, [Jesus said] put your net over the side of the boat. How many times did he say that to him? How many different situations? When Peter denied Jesus, there was a smell of coals, and when he came back after the crucifixion, there was a smell of coals. There were so many pieces of Peter’s life that Jesus would bring full circle for him, and Peter could tell the story differently.

That’s the beauty of learning to share God’s story or God’s narrative through your life. Because frankly, if all we do is pass on general information to people, it gets hard for them to be able to see it applying in their world. Giving a testimony, however — sometimes we don’t like that word — but giving a testimony or sharing the story as you’ve seen, heard, and experienced it, allows people to see life through your eyes, and in our case, to see God writing his story through our eyes and through our lives.

I remember reading several years ago, a couple of books. There were three books that really helped me in this space. One was by Henry Blackaby. It’s called, Experiencing God. And it just takes you on a deeper journey of listening for this, the repeatable stories or the things that God has done, where he’s made it very specific.

Max Lucado wrote a book called, The Cure for the Common Life, which is another great book of just walking through helping people, helping one see himself or herself as God has been working very specifically, because no two people are the same.

But the one that really grabbed me and that took me to a deeper place is one by Dr. Dan Allender. It’s a book called, To Be Told: Know Your Story, Shape Your Future. And he uses the language of story, and he uses the ability to teach us some practices that I think are very helpful in understanding what God has been doing so that we can be clearer on what he is doing and, most likely, will continue to do.

[00:11:11] So, what I’d like to do right now is take you on a journey and have you take a practice with me. I’d like you to just sit for a moment, and I’d like you to think through three words. Maybe grab a piece of paper. You may want to pause the podcast, grab a pen and a paper, because we’re going to write a little bit.

But one of the things I’d love for you to be able to do is when you get your pen and paper, I want you to write down three words that have been regularly spoken. Like you hear them a lot when people describe you or your impact or something that you’ve been used to give to them or to be a part of their life. Write down three words. The three words that come up most often that you’ve heard over the years, and just set them aside for a second.

[00:12:10] And then what I’d like for you to do, I’d like you to think of three times in your life. You may only be able to come up with one. You may only be able to come up with two, but you may be able to come up with 20, but I want you to try to come up with three times in your life where you know that God has made himself real and personal in your world. Three times where you know that you can put a date down You can just write yourself a little shorthand story title, you can write yourself a picture, you can name a place, but three situations or three times in your life where you know that God has made himself real or personal. Or as the Scripture talks about, he made it manifest, able to be grasped in the hand.

[00:13:00] So, when you have those three words together and you have those three situations together. See what they have in common. See if they have anything in common. They may not, but they will all come together in the end. Because when you’re looking at those three times that God has made himself personal, I want you to focus on how you knew it was God.

How did you know that it was God? It could be a circumstance, like he rescued you from some catastrophic accident or some catastrophic situation or potentially catastrophic situation as a child. It may be that time you prayed that God — you’d been a strikeout king in baseball, and maybe you prayed that God would allow you to get a hit. And you not only got a hit this time, but you hit a home run. And it sounds weird, but you believed in your heart that God answered your prayer, and you knew that God was moving in you because there was something different about this one.

It may have been a moment that shook you to the soul. It may have been one of those moments that that God allowed something in your life that not only challenged your faith, but it challenged your being. And then God made himself crystal clear that he was not only present, but he was moving in it. And even though you didn’t have an answer, or you didn’t have the answer you wanted, you were shook to the soul. He was present.

Or maybe it might be one of those times he used you, and then you saw later on that he was using you to answer somebody else’s prayer. Somebody else had been praying, and then God allowed you to be present or to say something or to do something. And they said to you, I was just praying about that. And you had no idea that’s how God was going to use you.

I don’t know what the circumstance is, but I’d like you to write down three times in your life where you know that God made himself real and personal in your world.

So now, when you bring those words back together, and when you bring those times back together, what I’d like for you to do next is I’d like for you to take them and pray over them and ask the Lord why he showed you those. Why, Holy Spirit, did you show me these words and these times? And then take the time in yourself, in that moment, write down what you think you hear, what you believe you hear, what he makes clear to you.

Because by doing so, what you will find is that God will make clear some of the things he’s been doing in your life, how he’s been using your life, how he’s been clarifying his presence in your life. And you’ll start seeing patterns. I firmly believe that as you look back at the stories and as you look back at the words, you’re going to find that they form a pattern. And you’re going to see that God didn’t just do it those three times, but there are other times that he’s done similar things and it’s been in similar ways, and it’s been a similar story. And you’ve come full circle again and again.

Because what that’s showing you is these are some of the things that God has been consistently using your life to reflect his story, to reflect his grace, to reflect his greatness, to reflect his faithfulness, to reflect his ability to hear you in pain, to reflect his ability to celebrate with you. You’re going to be able to see patterns of things that God has placed in your world to help you not just see it yourself, but to help other people.

[00:17:20] The last part of the practice of taking the words, taking the stories, asking God why he showed it to you, and then following the pattern — the last part of the practice is, when you come up with anything that’s clear, I would love for you to find someone that you trust , a dear friend, and I want you to tell them what you found.

Share the story. And I don’t want you to share the details of what I ask you to do: to write down three words, write down three situations. I want you to frame it as a story:

Recently I was listening to a podcast, and I was challenged to give a witness of the God story in my life. And so, I was challenged to … (and then you can lay [out] the things you were asked.) And so, here’s what I came to, and I just feel like I want to share it with you.

And then what you do is you listen to see if it’s validated in them. I’m pretty, pretty sure that what you’ll find is they will acknowledge that’s how God has been using your life, even in them.

I’ve come to see that there are several patterns in my life. And when I look for them, when I look for God in those moments, I call them divine appointments. But when I look for God in those moments, I know he’s present and I know he shows up.

In fact, this very morning, I had one of those circumstances. I had been invited to a prayer breakfast, and the guest speaker was going to be sharing a personal testimony of the tragedy of the loss of a son. She had lost her son during pregnancy, during the late, last stage of pregnancy, and the child was stillborn. And she went through all the gamut of emotions and the struggles of losing her son. Lord, why?

She was a believer. She is a believer. And she struggled. She struggled. It was a soul shaker moment. And she’s one of our local newscasters, and when I heard her story [previously], I began praying for her and for her husband and her family because 30 years ago this year, my wife and I had a very similar circumstance where we lost a daughter at 39 weeks.

And I began praying for them, and I wrote her an email to tell her. I wrote her to share with her that I’d be praying for her and her family, and I understand what that feels like in a small way especially as believers when you’re shaken to your soul. But I never had an opportunity to meet her.

This friend of mine who invited me to this [prayer breakfast], I got there, and I waited around afterwards. And I met her father who’s a pastor, and I just shared with him that I had been praying for him and his family. And I will continue to pray for him and his family.

It was a moment. And I found that what God did was he allowed me to see that there were some circumstances that were virtually identical, not in the loss, but in the conversations that we had with him. And so, he was able to validate for me, God heard me, and I was able to validate for him that God heard him.

And as I told this woman, the story — I got a chance to meet her — as I told her the story, these were her words for me. She said, even though she’s a newscaster, she’s a reluctant public speaker. And she said to me, thank you for sharing what you’ve shared, because what this has done is validated for me that my story, that the story God is writing for me, is one that I have to tell.

Now she had no idea that later today I would be doing this podcast about God’s story through our lives, but the language she used was specific. It was personal because that’s what I’ve learned about God in my own life. God uses specific language that validates for me that he’s speaking to me in that moment.

It’s what I’ve come to know. I can’t miss it. And so, it was a two way street, right? I was validated. She was validated, and we were both moved in this mission of how God is using our lives. Versus whether it’s just a situation that happens. And this is a pattern. This is a pattern for my world.

As I close, I’ll give you one more, brief story. A couple of weeks ago, I was visiting a church, and I had a young person who went to college in that town. Actually, they go to Harvard, and they were up at Harvard, and I wanted to visit them before I came home. But I wasn’t able to meet with them the night I thought. And so, I ended up running to the airport late, trying to get to the airport.

And so, all I had time to do was call this young person and say to them, “Listen, I’m only going to be able to come by and pray over you and give you a hug, but then I’m going to have to get to the airport.”

I meet this young person on the campus, and we start talking and she says to me, “I have to share something with you. Right before you called me to tell me that you were coming, she had just texted a dear friend and said, I feel just a wave of just dark energy and darkness around me. And I just need to know if you could talk because I just need a hug and I need somebody to pray.” And she said, “And then Pastor Jeff, you called me, and you said those very words. Thanks.”

And she started to cry. And I hugged her, I grabbed her hands, and I thanked God for allowing me to pay attention and let him use my words to be an answer to a prayer she was offering. I had no idea, but he did. That’s how God uses our story. That’s how God uses our ideas. That’s how God uses the life that we live.

Will you begin paying attention, too? Will you find out how God makes himself clear to you? If so, I ask you to take those words, take those moments, ask God to make himself clear to you. And then continue to be his witness where you are comfortable, where you’re safe, where you’re comfortable, where you’re uncomfortable, and sometimes where you’re scared to death.

Let’s pray.

Lord Jesus, thank you for being the God who sees us, who works with us, who blesses our lives, who invites us to join you in ways that will blow our minds if we would only pay attention. Lord, thank you for this time. And it is my prayer that each person will be able to see your story in their lives, Lord, where you are moving, where you get the glory, where you get the praise, where you validate that you are present, that you are moving, and that you are God.

We can’t thank you enough. And I pray that everyone who hears this podcast, that what they will find is you manifest, personal, real in their past, in their present, and in their future. It is in your glorious name, Lord Jesus, do we pray and thank you by the power of the Spirit to the glory of the Father.

Thank you for listening to this episode of GC Podcast. We hope you found this time valuable. We would love to hear from you. Email us at info@gci.org with your suggestions or feedback. And remember, healthy churches start with healthy leaders, so invest in yourself and in your leaders.

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Missional Formation w/ Cara Garrity

Cara: Welcome to GCPodcast, a podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience. Today, we will be exploring some elements of missional formation. So, go on ahead and settle in. Maybe ground yourself with your feet on the floor, take a couple of deep breaths and invite the Holy Spirit to make this a time of transformation for us.

Let me start us off with a word of prayer.

Loving God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, we thank you for your presence with us. We thank you that you are a God that wants to be known. We thank you that you are a God that invites us into your ministry and mission of making yourself known. We ask you, God, that you would make us tender to be molded and shaped by you, that you would give us willing hearts to be made more into your likeness, to be made more into who you have always meant us to be, God.

We thank you that you are so faithful to guide us, to transform us, to make us new, and to draw us into your very life. We ask your blessing over this time as we reflect and meditate and invite you into our contemplation of what it means to be formed missionally. We ask you, Holy Spirit, to do your work within us; surprise us, do more than we could ever imagine.

We thank you that you are so faithful for your work to be complete. We pray this in your wonderful and your glorious name. Amen.

So first, I want to take a minute to just explore a little bit what it even means to live missionally. That might be a buzzword we are used to hearing if we have been around in the church community for any amount of time.

Let us dig a little bit deeper into what does that look like? What can it look like? Where do we even get that from? What might that mean for us?

I want to look in the Gospel of Matthew. After Jesus’s resurrection, we read in the Gospel of Matthew that he came to his disciples.

In Matthew 28:16-20, we read this.

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Amen.

This is what has come to be known as the Great Commission, where we as disciples are sent by Jesus on his disciple making mission.

In this English translation, the phrase “therefore go” in the ancient language has a little bit more of this sense of an ongoing action. As we make disciples, there is a sense of we’re living sent. It is a way of being more than just a series of isolated actions.

We are being called to be the sent people of a sending God. Remember, even Jesus himself was the Son of God sent to us, the word of God made flesh to dwell among us. We are called to be the sent people of a sending God.

In his book, Surprise the World, The Five Habits of Highly Missional People, Michael Frost suggests five habits that might open us to the missional formation by the Spirit. I want to read an excerpt for you right here where he talks about these missional habits and how we might think of these habits in participating in Jesus’s mission. He writes this.

Sometimes called missional rhythms or missional practices, missional habits are those habits we foster in our lives that in turn shape our missional outlook. by missional I mean all that we do and say that alerts others to the reign of God.

South African missiologist David Walsh wrote, “Mission is more than and different from recruitment to our brand of religion; it is the alerting of people to the universal reign of God through Christ.” In other words, mission derives from the reign of God. In that respect, the ideas of our mission and God’s kingdom are irrevocably linked. Mission is both the announcement and the demonstration of the reign of God through Christ.

Let me say that again. Mission is both the announcement and the demonstration of the reign of God through Christ.

These five habits that he suggests may open us up to the formation of a missional way of living. Summed up in an acronym, “bells,” B-E-L-L-S.

Now the B stands for bless. What that means is to bless others. There are a lot of diverse ways to bless others. A word of affirmation, an act of kindness fulfilling a need, being a tangible blessing to another person, to a neighbor. And particularly with this habit, we are called, challenged to think beyond the confines beyond the walls of our church community only.

The E stands for eat. That speaks to hospitality, to the spending of quality time with another, to coming around the table and breaking bread, getting to know one another, and sharing in that company. And again, with this we are surrendering to being formed a missionary. So, while it’s wonderful to break bread with those in our church community, we are in these missional habits also challenged to think about and to embody the habit of eating with those outside of the walls of our church community.

Our first L is listen, and this is exhortation, an encouragement to listen for the voice of the Holy Spirit, to find those consistent times where you sit in stillness, where you sit in meditation and reflection, where you sit with the word of God, maybe in nature, where you take a prayer walk.

Whatever that looks like for you, season to season, each week to each week. But how are we sitting? How are we being still? How are we pausing, stepping aside from the day-to-day rhythms to listen for the voice of the Holy Spirit? What is God doing? What is he saying to us? What is he showing us? What is he doing in our very midst, within us and through us?

He is an active God. Let us listen for his voice.

The second L is learning Christ. Now this is a deep embodied, holistic learning of Christ. This goes beyond knowing some facts or fancy theological terms. But this is talking about the whole-person discipleship, being formed into Christ likeness, learning Christ as in knowing him with your entire being and growing more and more deeply into his life and his person, being drawn into him, being formed into his likeness as a disciple. Learning Christ, not just with our minds, but with our minds, our hearts, our souls, our bodies. Learning Christ to be like him.

The S is sent. This S for sent is meant to be an encouragement to consistently reflect and even tangibly journal the ways that we have been living sent, the ways that that week we have alerted our community, our neighbors, our friends, our family, to the reign of God through Jesus.

How did I live sent today? How did I live sent this week, this month? What did that look like?

And the idea of this phrase, formational habit, is that as we reflect on that, we begin to identify more and more what that looks like, what it looks like for us. And to be shaped into people who proclaim and demonstrate the gospel, the reign of Jesus Christ as second nature.

We see that as we are formed and as we surrender to being formed in mission through various habits, this BELLS framework is a helpful one that we may consider — less, eat, listen, learn, and sent.

A second guide that I want to propose to us today is a simple phrase that we will think about is where. Where are we sent? Where do we practice these habits? Where do we live missionally? Where we live, where we work, and where we play.

Remember Matthew 28:19-20.

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Amen.

We are living sent, and it is an ongoing action, and so we are living sent in our everyday lives. And what do we do in our everyday lives? We live, we work, we play. Where are our typical rhythms? Where do we spend our time? Who do we spend our time with?

Where do we spend our time that we do not even necessarily pay particular attention to that if we did start paying particular attention to, we would start to listen and hear the Spirit’s voice and see what God is doing? And so how do we begin to see God at work everywhere we go? And how do we proclaim and demonstrate the kingdom of an extraordinary king in ordinary moments, wherever we live, wherever we work, and wherever we play?

[00:13:29] Now I want us to dive into a couple of reflective exercises. As we explore and continue together to surrender ourselves to missional formation to say, yes, Jesus, you have sent us, continue to form me as a sent person. Continue to give me and make me feet that are willing to go.

The first thing I want us to do is meditate on the passage, John 20:19-22. This passage we find in the Gospel of John, again after Jesus’ resurrection, when he comes to the disciples, and he sends them. Meditate on this passage with me.

19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. 21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

As you reflect on this passage, I want you to pause this podcast, as much time as you want, to reflect, to meditate on these questions, but imagine yourself seeing, touching the hands inside of Jesus just as these disciples did. What comes up for you?

Read this passage or hear this passage again and receive the breath of Jesus, the Holy Spirit. Notice. What is your response? And hear Jesus saying the words, “As the Father has sent me, I am sending you” to you. How does that feel?

So once more.

19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. 21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

Amen.

Now I want to invite you into reflecting through these two frameworks that we were introduced to today. Explore what they could look like in your own life to begin practicing them and experiencing what it might mean in your life, for your formation.

[00:17:11] Let us return to this concept of where we live, work, and play as the places where we are sent — our ordinary everyday spaces and places, rhythms, our ordinary and everyday lives.

Where are the places that you live and work and play? How can you nurture meaningful relationships in these places? How have you nurtured meaningful relationships in these places? And then if you do not live in your church neighborhood, how might you be able to create an intentional space of live or work or play in that neighborhood?

[00:17:56] And then bells, B-E-L-L-S, bless, eat, listen, learn, sent. Which of these is most natural for you? Which is most challenging? What would it look like to consistently practice one of these over the next month? How do you want to respond to God’s invitation to form missional rhythms in your everyday life?

[00:18:27] And finally, I have three more questions of reflection for us. And again, please pause this podcast, take as much time as you need to reflect, to pray, to journal, to doodle, as you consider these questions and surrender yourself to the work of the Spirit and transformation and formation into Christ’s loving mission for all his people.

What joys and fears come to mind when I think about living a sent life? What joys and fears come to mind when I think about living a sent life? What do I have to gain as Jesus forms me in his likeness and mission? What might I have to surrender? Who has God made me to be? What gifts, passions, quirks, stories, scars, triumphs are He revealing in me? How might the Spirit use who I am personally to form me in mission?

I want to wrap up today with a prayer of blessing over all of us. This prayer is written by Ted Loder and is from his book of prayers, Gorillas of Grace, Prayers for the Battle. This prayer is titled, “Teach Me Your Ways.”

Teach me Your ways, Lord,
that I may come down from my heights
and be open to the same Spirit
who moved over the face of the waters in the first day of creation
and moves also over the chaos of this time
to fashion a day like this,
a world like ours,
a life like mine,
a kingdom acting as leaven in the bread of earth.

And make me aware of the miracles of life,
of warm and cold,
of starkness and order,
of screaming wind and impenetrable silences,
and of the unfathomable mystery of amazing grace
in which I am kept.

Teach me Your ways, Lord,
that I may praise You
for all the surprising, ingenious ways You bless me,
and for all the wondrous gifts You give me,
along with all the pain and joy I sustain.

Teach me Your ways, Lord,
that I may accept my own talent openly,
nurture it hopefully,
develop it faithfully,
and give it freely.

Teach me Your ways, Lord,
that I may love Your kindness
and practice it toward the hungry of the world,
the poor and sick, and oppressed,
that I may learn the healing humility that comes from You.

Teach me Your ways, Lord,
so that my heart is flooded with Your mercy—
emptying it of what makes it firmly opposed to Your ways,
so that it beats more in rhythm with You
and pounds greatly for Your kingdom. Amen.
Lord Jesus, teach us your ways that we may live as your sent people.

Thank you for listening to this episode of GCPodcast. We hope you found this time valuable. We would love to hear from you. Email us at info@gci.org with your suggestions or feedback. And remember, healthy churches start with healthy leaders. So, invest in yourself and in your leaders.

The post Missional Formation w/ Cara Garrity first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Lectio Divina w/ Cara Garrity

Cara Garrity: Welcome to GC Podcast, a podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience. In this episode, I, your host, Cara Garrity, will introduce and guide us through the practice of Lectio Divina.

What is the practice of Lectio Divina? The term Lectio Divina means divine reading, and it is a practice that originates back to the early church. One way to think about it is a practice of praying through the scriptures. It is a guided way of engaging the scriptures in an immersive, transformational way.

There are four steps or four movements that we move through in the Lectio Divina. The first is reading, second is meditation, third is prayer, and fourth is contemplation. For each of these steps of the Lectio Divina practice, we read the chosen passage of scripture and engage in it through each of these four: reading, meditation, prayer, and contemplation.

This practice of Lectio Divina can be practiced either alone, personally, or together, as a group.

In preparation, I want to invite you to open yourself to the following, as we prepare to engage this practice of Lectio Divina:

First, that Jesus, the living Word, speaks to us through his written word.

Second, I invite you to open yourself to the fact that God is a self-revealing God that wants to be known by us. He will reveal himself to us through soaking in the scriptures.

That we are invited into transformation in our relationship with God.

That God is present with us as we read his written word.

If you are doing this practice together with the group, some guidelines to help you: between each movement of the Lectio Divina, you can pause to give each member of the group a moment to share. Although, that’s not required for each person to share; it is optional.

Approach this group sharing with the posture that God speaks to us through others, in relationships with one another. As you create this space for sharing in a group Lectio Divina, it is not a space for discussion, but a space for listening. You will just want to create space for people to share, not really for response and discussion after each movement.

The last piece of the Lectio Divina that I want to mention before we guide through this practice and go through it together is that you typically want to use a shorter passage or section of scripture [with a group].

Today we are going to use a passage that comes with the RCL for this month of June, and we are going to be reading from Mark. Mark 5:21-43.

Now using the Lectio Divina along with the seasons of the worship calendar the RCL is a fun way to follow the seasons of the worship calendar. But that is not the only way to practice Lectio Divina. That is just what we are going to be doing today.

Before we get started, I want to say a prayer over us. I want to invite you to get comfortable in a quiet space. Sit, get grounded, put your feet on the floor, turn off distractions. Take a minute to quiet your mind. Even pause this podcast for 30 seconds, two minutes, just quiet yourself.

Let us pray this prayer together, titled “Help Me Listen” from Gorillas of Grace, Prayers for the Battle, written by Todd Loder.

O Holy One,
I hear and say so many words,
yet yours is the Word I need.
Speak now,
and help me listen;
and if what I hear is silence,
let it quiet me,
let it disturb me,
let it touch my need,
let it break my pride,
let it shrink my certainties,
let it enlarge my wonder.

Amen.

So, I invite you now. To participate with me in the practice of Lectio Divina using Mark 5:21-43. We are going to go through each step of the Lectio Divina together.

[05:58] So again, I invite you to quiet yourself. Sit in a comfortable position. You can close your eyes if that is what is comfortable to you. We are going to start with the first step, which is the reading. You can just listen along to my reading. You can follow along if that is what is most comfortable to you.

The question I want you to think about as you listen or read along is what word or phrases jump out at you? What images in this passage speak to you? Let us read.

21 When Jesus had again crossed over by boat to the other side of the lake, a large crowd gathered around him while he was by the lake. 22 Then one of the synagogue leaders, named Jairus, came, and when he saw Jesus, he fell at his feet. 23 He pleaded earnestly with him, “My little daughter is dying. Please come and put your hands on her so that she will be healed and live.” 24 So Jesus went with him.

A large crowd followed and pressed around him. 25 And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. 26 She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, 28 because she thought, “If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.” 29 Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering.

30 At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who touched my clothes?”

31 “You see the people crowding against you,” his disciples answered, “and yet you can ask, ‘Who touched me?’ ”

32 But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it. 33 Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the whole truth. 34 He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering.”

35 While Jesus was still speaking, some people came from the house of Jairus, the synagogue leader. “Your daughter is dead,” they said. “Why bother the teacher anymore?”

36 Overhearing what they said, Jesus told him, “Don’t be afraid; just believe.”

37 He did not let anyone follow him except Peter, James and John the brother of James. 38 When they came to the home of the synagogue leader, Jesus saw a commotion, with people crying and wailing loudly. 39 He went in and said to them, “Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep.” 40 But they laughed at him.

After he put them all out, he took the child’s father and mother and the disciples who were with him, and went in where the child was. 41 He took her by the hand and said to her, “Talitha koum!” (which means “Little girl, I say to you, get up!”). 42 Immediately the girl stood up and began to walk around (she was twelve years old). At this they were completely astonished. 43 He gave strict orders not to let anyone know about this, and told them to give her something to eat.

What word or phrases jump out at you? What images? What connects with you as you hear and read this passage? Take a moment, pause the podcast for a minute or two. What connects you?

[10:08] Now, together, let us move on to meditation. We will read the passage once more, this time meditate on the words, the phrases, the images that stood out to you. And just sit with these images in the presence of God.

Let them wash over you. What brings you comfort or challenge? What do you notice as you sit with this image, with these phrases, as you meditate on them?

21 When Jesus had again crossed over by boat to the other side of the lake, a large crowd gathered around him while he was by the lake. 22 Then one of the synagogue leaders, named Jairus, came, and when he saw Jesus, he fell at his feet. 23 He pleaded earnestly with him, “My little daughter is dying. Please come and put your hands on her so that she will be healed and live.” 24 So Jesus went with him.

A large crowd followed and pressed around him. 25 And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. 26 She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, 28 because she thought, “If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.” 29 Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering.

30 At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who touched my clothes?”

31 “You see the people crowding against you,” his disciples answered, “and yet you can ask, ‘Who touched me?’ ”

32 But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it. 33 Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the whole truth. 34 He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering.”

35 While Jesus was still speaking, some people came from the house of Jairus, the synagogue leader. “Your daughter is dead,” they said. “Why bother the teacher anymore?”

36 Overhearing what they said, Jesus told him, “Don’t be afraid; just believe.”

37 He did not let anyone follow him except Peter, James and John the brother of James. 38 When they came to the home of the synagogue leader, Jesus saw a commotion, with people crying and wailing loudly. 39 He went in and said to them, “Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep.” 40 But they laughed at him.

After he put them all out, he took the child’s father and mother and the disciples who were with him, and went in where the child was. 41 He took her by the hand and said to her, “Talitha koum!” (which means “Little girl, I say to you, get up!”). 42 Immediately the girl stood up and began to walk around (she was twelve years old). At this they were completely astonished. 43 He gave strict orders not to let anyone know about this, and told them to give her something to eat.

What have you noticed as you meditate on the words, phrases, and images that stood out to you?

What has brought you comfort? What has challenged you? What have you seen in a new light? What do you relate to?

[14:23] Now, let us move on to prayer together. As we listen to this passage, again, come with a posture of prayer. What do you hear God saying to you through these words, these phrases, these images that have stood out to you?

What is God saying to you through these scriptures, the living Word through his spoken word? What do you want to say to God? What praises do you have to lift? What thanksgiving? What petitions?

Let us approach his written words with a posture of prayer.

21 When Jesus had again crossed over by boat to the other side of the lake, a large crowd gathered around him while he was by the lake. 22 Then one of the synagogue leaders, named Jairus, came, and when he saw Jesus, he fell at his feet. 23 He pleaded earnestly with him, “My little daughter is dying. Please come and put your hands on her so that she will be healed and live.” 24 So Jesus went with him.

A large crowd followed and pressed around him. 25 And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. 26 She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, 28 because she thought, “If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.” 29 Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering.

30 At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who touched my clothes?”

31 “You see the people crowding against you,” his disciples answered, “and yet you can ask, ‘Who touched me?’ ”

32 But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it. 33 Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the whole truth. 34 He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering.”

35 While Jesus was still speaking, some people came from the house of Jairus, the synagogue leader. “Your daughter is dead,” they said. “Why bother the teacher anymore?”

36 Overhearing what they said, Jesus told him, “Don’t be afraid; just believe.”

37 He did not let anyone follow him except Peter, James and John the brother of James. 38 When they came to the home of the synagogue leader, Jesus saw a commotion, with people crying and wailing loudly. 39 He went in and said to them, “Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep.” 40 But they laughed at him.

After he put them all out, he took the child’s father and mother and the disciples who were with him, and went in where the child was. 41 He took her by the hand and said to her, “Talitha koum!” (which means “Little girl, I say to you, get up!”). 42 Immediately the girl stood up and began to walk around (she was twelve years old). At this they were completely astonished. 43 He gave strict orders not to let anyone know about this, and told them to give her something to eat.

What have you heard speaking to you through this passage? What rises in you to speak to God as you hear this passage read?

[18:51] Finally, let us enter a phase of contemplation. What have you received from God as you have prayed through this scripture? What might he be inviting you into? What transformation, conversion of mind, heart, and life is God inviting you into? How is he meeting you right now in his presence during this passage and drawing you deeper into who he is transforming you to the image of Christ?

21 When Jesus had again crossed over by boat to the other side of the lake, a large crowd gathered around him while he was by the lake. 22 Then one of the synagogue leaders, named Jairus, came, and when he saw Jesus, he fell at his feet. 23 He pleaded earnestly with him, “My little daughter is dying. Please come and put your hands on her so that she will be healed and live.” 24 So Jesus went with him.

A large crowd followed and pressed around him. 25 And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. 26 She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, 28 because she thought, “If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.” 29 Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering.

30 At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who touched my clothes?”

31 “You see the people crowding against you,” his disciples answered, “and yet you can ask, ‘Who touched me?’ ”

32 But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it. 33 Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the whole truth. 34 He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering.”

35 While Jesus was still speaking, some people came from the house of Jairus, the synagogue leader. “Your daughter is dead,” they said. “Why bother the teacher anymore?”

36 Overhearing what they said, Jesus told him, “Don’t be afraid; just believe.”

37 He did not let anyone follow him except Peter, James and John the brother of James. 38 When they came to the home of the synagogue leader, Jesus saw a commotion, with people crying and wailing loudly. 39 He went in and said to them, “Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep.” 40 But they laughed at him.

After he put them all out, he took the child’s father and mother and the disciples who were with him, and went in where the child was. 41 He took her by the hand and said to her, “Talitha koum!” (which means “Little girl, I say to you, get up!”). 42 Immediately the girl stood up and began to walk around (she was twelve years old). At this they were completely astonished. 43 He gave strict orders not to let anyone know about this, and told them to give her something to eat.

Take a moment, pause the podcast.

What have you received from God as you have prayed through the scripture? What may he be inviting you into? What conversion, transformation of mind, heart, life, is God inviting you into?

Now let us pray.

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, we thank you so much that you are a God who wants to be known by us. We thank you for revealing yourself to us. We thank you that you are a God that is present with us. We thank you for your written words. We thank you for speaking to us through your written words.

We thank you for transforming us through your written words and we thank you for this practice of Lectio Divina. I thank you for all the ways that you have spoken to each one of us personally and communally. As we engage in your written word in this way, as we pray through your scriptures in the confidence that it is your living Word that brings them to life, that it is your living Word that transforms us as we read, that it is your living Word that draws us in to life everlasting, that it is your living Word that brings all of this meaning.

We thank you, God. We thank you for being present here with us. And we thank you for the wisdom of the church historical, for this practice of sitting quietly at your feet, meditating on your scriptures, spending time with you, allowing you to transform us, speak to us, form us more into your image as your people, your image bearers here.

We thank you and praise you for being so faithful to guide us and we pray this in your holy and wonderful name, amen.

[25:19] Now I invite you all to reflect on a few questions. Whether on your own, or if you are going through this Lectio Divina practice with a group, or even your leadership team, let us reflect on some questions together. You can pause this podcast in between each question to give yourself as much time as you need to reflect in the ways that you need to. You can journal these reflections. You can discuss them if you are in a group, whatever is beneficial to you.

The first question I want us to think about as we have gone through this practice of the Lectio Divina together is what was this practice like for you? What challenged you? What was life giving about this practice?

The second question I want us to reflect on is how might this practice contribute to the growth of healthy leadership, healthy teams, and healthy church rhythms in the life of your local congregation?

Finally, what more do you want to know about practices of praying the scriptures? How might you go about learning or immersing yourself in such practices?

I want to thank you for joining me today and going through this guided practice of the Lectio Divina, whether it was the first time for you, and this was a new practice, or whether it was the 50th or 100th time for you.

Thank you for joining me. This is a wonderful and beautiful transformative practice that the church has held for many generations. Until next time, you all keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thank you for listening to this episode of GC Podcast. We hope you found this time valuable. We would love to hear from you. Email us at info@gci.org with your suggestions or feedback. And remember, healthy churches start with healthy leaders, so invest in yourself and in your leaders.

The post Lectio Divina w/ Cara Garrity first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Team Building w/ Cara Garrity

Welcome to GC Podcast, a podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience.

Cara Garrity: In this episode, I (your host, Cara Garrity) will lead us through some team building experiences and exercises.

Now today’s exercises are best experienced with your ministry team. So, consider dedicating an upcoming team meeting, or at least scheduling 20 minutes or so to team building in your next meeting agenda.

[00:40] We know that an important piece of GCI’s healthy church vision is Team Based —Pastor Led ministry. But there are a lot of diverse ways to lead a ministry. What is so great about team-based ministry?

When we minister alongside one another on teams, we reflect the unity and diversity of the body of Christ. Let us consider 1 Corinthians 12: 12-26 together. And it says:

12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

14 Indeed, the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot would say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear would say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many members yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, the members of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and those members of the body that we think less honorable we clothe with greater honor, and our less respectable members are treated with greater respect, 24 whereas our more respectable members do not need this. But God has so arranged the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior member, 25 that there may be no dissension within the body, but the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together with it; if one member is honored, all rejoice together with it.

Amen.

[03:18] I want to encourage us to see our ministry teams as a reflection of the body of Christ — many parts, but one body.

And if we do this, how might this shape the way that we approach team-based ministry? And I want you to pause and, for a couple minutes, discuss this question with your team. How might this shape the way that we approach team-based ministry if we were to see our teams as a reflection of the body of Christ — many parts, but one body?

Now think about, practically speaking, how this might shape the way that we approach the practical aspects of

• how we run our teams?
• how we recruit people into our teams?
• how we run our meetings and communicate?
• how we assign different responsibilities?

How might this image of the body of Christ inform how we conduct our teams in that sense?

Take a couple minutes with your team to brainstorm and discuss this.

[04:45] Now your team, I want to suggest to you, is a unique expression of the body of Christ. I want us to take some time now to discern and celebrate who God has brought together on your team to serve for this season.

So let’s start with this — and I would encourage you, especially for those visual folks on your team, if you haven’t gotten these supplies already, get a big piece of poster board paper, one of those post-it papers, some markers, some pens, or even if you just have a blank piece of paper on the table that everyone can see and something to write with. Grab some of those, and we’re going to use that for this exercise.

And then the first thing that I want us to start with is a reminder of the purpose of your team. What brings your team together? What is your purpose? For what do you exist?

Now, this may come, for the purpose of this exercise, for your team in the form of your local congregation’s mission and vision statement. This will come in the form of GCI’s vision of Healthy Church or mission statement of “Living and sharing the gospel.”

Whatever that looks like for you, what brings your team together? What is your purpose?

And now what I want you to do is take some time and go around your team. Each member, I want you to answer the question: how do you uniquely contribute to the purpose of this team? And take two minutes to quietly reflect on this before you start answering this question.

[06:44] You are going to go ahead and pause this podcast while you go through and take those two minutes of silent reflection and then share as a team.

The question is: how do you uniquely contribute to the purpose of this team?

And now as you are sharing, I want you on that poster board, paper, whatever it is, draw an outline of a body. And as each member shares, label the various parts of the body with the keywords, the unique gifts or skills or passions that they contribute to the purpose of the team. And just label the various parts of the body with those keywords or gifts, whatever that is, that comes up in your discussion.

How does each member of the team uniquely contribute to the purpose of the team? What gifts, talents, skills, passions?

Now look at this image that you have created. It is a visual representation of your team as the body of Christ. And I want you to look at it and to praise God for who he has brought together to your team. And to see that he has brought together different giftings, different talents, different passions, different skill sets.

And I want you all to look at that and talk about the specific ways or the specific, I guess combinations or expressions of that, that you see on your team. What sticks out with you?

What do you appreciate and celebrate the expression of the body of Christ that God has brought together? What do you notice? And then I want you to take a few minutes and just praise God for bringing you all together. And I want you to affirm one another that you all need one another, that you all belong as members of the body of Christ and an expression of the body of Christ on this team.

[09:06] So go ahead and pause this podcast and take a few minutes to do that and celebrate your unique expression that is represented visually by this drawing.

Now, the next exercise that I want us to do, to consider is if we are considering or engaging with our ministry teams as a reflection and expression of the body of Christ, then we are going to embody this belief that we belong one to another, that we are connected, that we are made one in Christ. What would it look like to commit to belonging to one another as team members?

[09:59] Go ahead and pause the podcast and discuss that as a team for a few minutes. What would it look like to commit to belonging to one another as team members, to be united in Christ?

Here are some simple suggestions that you can start out with. You could rotate prayer partners after each meeting. Whether you have weekly meetings or monthly meetings, whatever that looks like, you just get a prayer partner on that team. And you share your prayer requests, and you follow up and you pray with that person once a week or during that month.

You add prayer for one another to each meeting agenda, every single time you meet. You take turns starting each meeting with a liturgical prayer or spiritual formation exercise that is meaningful to each one of you. You are bringing that expression of who God has made you to be, that gifting, that uniqueness to one another.

And you are growing together and forming in Christlikeness together, with one another. Maybe consider some practices and committing to some practices like this together as a team.

[00:11:25] And for right now, what I want to ask you to do is to take about maybe five to 10 minutes — depending on the size of your team or however this flows for you all —and I want for each person to pray for the person on your right. I want you to thank God for what they bring to this team. And you can use the visual representation from the previous exercise, as a reminder, as something to come back to. I want you to thank God for what they bring to this team, affirm their belonging to the body, their belonging on this team, that their participation on the team is important, and that we celebrate with one another.

Take five to ten minutes for each member on the team to pray for one another, the person on your right. Go ahead and pause this podcast and do that with one another now.

So, I want to encourage us to remember that the teams we serve are more than just production lines, groups of people that we complete checklists alongside to get things done in the church or gears in the machine to make sure things happen and get done. We serve on teens because in Christ, we are many who are made one, each uniquely, fearfully, and wonderfully made, brought together to form the one body of Christ and in him. We belong not only to him, but to one another. We come together in cooperation to be his hands and feet, to participate in his present ministry, in our midst.

And what a beautiful thing that these teams that we get to serve on, that we get to build out in our local congregations, to be a local expression of this body. So let me pray for us.

Lord God, I thank you so much. Father, Son, and Spirit, you yourself are, in your very being, unity. In diversity and unity, Father, Son, and Spirit, three in one.

I thank you that you, Jesus, have brought us, your people, many into one in your body. We thank you for being so good to us. We thank you for giving us according to your will for your good, good purposes. And we thank you for the immense privilege it is to participate in your ministry. And that we do not do it alone, but that we do it primarily with you, that we participate in what you’re doing, but that we get to do it alongside one another too.

We thank you for your relationship and community. And we thank you that it reflects who you are. I pray for a blessing for all our teams. That you would continue to grow them with one another, that they would continue to mature and expand as expressions of your body. That people would be able to operate in the gifts and the skills and the talents that you’ve given them to serve those in their neighborhoods, to join in what you are doing in their midst.

I thank you for being so faithful to guide us, and I praise you in your holy name. Amen.

[15:19] So together as a team, I want to offer a few reflection questions as we have completed these two exercises together as a team.

1. The first is, what difference does it make when we view our teams as reflections of the body of Christ? And how does this challenge us? How does it inspire us? So, take a few minutes to discuss this.
2. Next, what practices or actions does your team want to commit to continue growing in maturity and unity as an expression of the body of Christ together?
3. And finally, what would it look like to continue creating space for people to use their giftings to be active participants in the body of Christ and the life of your local congregation?

So, I want to leave you all with the encouragement of Ephesians 4: 1-16. And it draws us back to the purpose of coming together, diverse, and united, as ministry servants alongside one another in his church. So, Ephesians 4 says:

As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it says:

“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”

9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

May it be so in our teams, in our congregations, throughout our denomination. Until next time, friends, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thank you for listening to this episode of GC Podcast. We hope you found this time valuable. We would love to hear from you. Email us at info@gci.org with your suggestions or feedback. And remember, healthy churches start with healthy leaders, so invest in yourself and in your leaders.

The post Team Building w/ Cara Garrity first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Creative Expressions of Worship w/ Lucy Santibanez-Enerio

Cara: Welcome to GC Podcast, a podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience. In this episode, we welcome Lucy Santibanez-Enerio, who will lead us through creative expressions of worship.

We invite you to co-create your own experiences of spiritual formation through personal and communal practices. We believe that through such personal and communal practices, we open ourselves and surrender to the work of the Holy Spirit in and through us.

May the work of the Holy Spirit in our midst grow us up into the healthiest participants in the ministry of Christ that we can be to the glory of the Father. Amen.

Lucy: Hello friends, my name is Lucy. I grew up in the Philippines, and I started being involved in the music ministry when I was 10 years old. One of my core memories in being transformed through worship is when at a young age, during Sunday service, we were singing the song, “Knowing You, Jesus.” And I looked around the fellowship hall of our local congregation, and I see all ages and all generations who were connecting to God, declaring that there is no other greater thing in life than getting to know their personal Savior.

Since then, I’ve always felt that I, and all people, are called to pursue God’s presence because there is peace in his presence, there is hope, joy, and rest in his presence. I found that God has a way of speaking to me personally through music. A few years down the road, I found myself being drawn to psychology for my undergraduate studies, and eventually I completed graduate degrees in music therapy.

But primarily, all I really wanted to do was worship God and see people join near to God in worship. So, through it all, I continue to be part of worship teams, and I currently serve as a volunteer worship leader and music team coordinator at GC Steele Creek in Charlotte, North Carolina, all by the grace of God, according to his plans.

Today, we will be exploring creative expressions of worship that extend beyond the familiar congregational worship gatherings to a more personal spiritual expression. So, whether you’re a seasoned worshipper or someone looking to deepen your connection with the Lord, we hope you are able to find meaning and resource from this experience.

Our theme for today’s practice is “Making Room to Encounter God in the Mundane.”

Like many of us, I am always in awe of sunrise and sunsets. One, because of the beauty and the mystery of the rising and the setting ball of energy millions of miles away from us interacting with our skies and setting off awe inspiring colors.

And two, in a way, this phenomenon that we often tend to overlook feels like God’s way of taking care of us, motivating us to wake up and also signaling us to take the rest that we need. Creation is reflecting the beauty of our Creator, and I can’t help but break into song about God’s goodness when I witness the beauty of his creation. Psalm 19, verse 1 says, “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.”

Human beings are made for worship. In the posture of worship, we fall into the arms of God and saying, “Have your way in me, Lord.” Disciplines of worship put us in a place to be receptive and responsive to the Holy Spirit’s movements and invitation. The discipline of worship focuses our attention on the beauty of the Trinity, the source of all that is good, true, and beautiful.

There are so many ways and forms of worship, more than we recognize in the ordinary moments of life. We worship when we come together in celebration of God’s goodness. We worship when we come to the foot of the cross to lament an expression of our grief.

We worship in our giving, in holy communion, in making meals for others, in making spaces livable and beautiful, and in so many forms – crafts, woodwork, poetry, visual arts, movement, music. After all, God is the ultimate artist, the creator of the heavens and the earth. he communicates through his creation and relates with his creation.

We come to him to worship individually and as a congregation. We worship in silence and solitude or in holy roars of praise.

The Bible tells us of how David actively pursued God’s presence in worship. In the book of Psalm and 1 and 2 Samuel, we learn about David’s raw expressions of praise to God amidst life’s highs and lows.

Whether it’s in periods of grief and anger or moments of shame, David cries out for forgiveness. In times of joy and excitement, David praises God by dancing and exuberant singing. In moments of need, David surrenders his human desire for control, and instead seeks and aligns himself with God’s heart. he teaches us to do the same.

David’s example shows us that worship isn’t about putting on a facade of perfection, but by being vulnerable and humbly turning our hearts towards God, regardless of our circumstances. Worship includes but does not have to be solely about emotion. It’s about recognizing God’s worthiness of praise, even when life feels chaotic or unfair.

Being able to worship and find hope is one of the many gifts that God has blessed us with. Regardless of our circumstance, God has given us the ability to come to him and rest in him. Worship is more than an event. It is the posture of our hearts.

So, we now recognize that worship isn’t confined to a specific style or practice. It’s a personal journey that is expressed both inward and outward.

In the next few minutes, we’ll explore how we can take our creative expressions and offer them as an act of worship. So today I invite you to consider the act of creating, or the expression of creativity, as a form of worship. Whether it’s through music, art, poetry, or other forms of expression, our creativity can be a meaningful way to connect with our Lord. It’s about offering our time, thoughts, skills, and our whole being as an act of worship.

I personally love to spend my time with the Lord through soft instrumental music, as I feel like it serves as a container of my experiences and sacred interactions with our Lord. It is a way for me to make room for God in our busy day-to-day lives, by finding pockets of time to be in tune with God and be transformed by his presence. This will be different for everyone, and that’s okay. It doesn’t have to be complicated or long-winded, but it is personal and intentional.

So now, if you are inclined, I invite you to grab a notebook, or maybe some coloring tools, or any other crafts or tools that you are drawn to. If you are musically inclined, you may grab an instrument. You can also take this time to simply listen and receive what the Lord has for you.

We will spend the next few minutes exploring creative expressions of worship. This is your time to connect with our Lord in a way that feels personal and authentic to you. I will be playing instrumental music to guide our time together, but for now, take a couple of grounding breaths.

Feel free to receive. And open your senses to the Lord. Take a moment to ground yourself in God’s love. he continues to provide for you and has invited you to wake up today and rest in him. Close your eyes, if you can, and invite his presence into your safe space.

Three simple ways to prepare our hearts to worship are to recognize, receive, and respond.

Recognize by making room in your heart and thoughts. Invite and anticipate God’s presence. He is the ultimate shepherd who invites us to lay down in green pastures. He leads us beside still waters and restores our souls.

Allow the following verses to wash over you as you receive his word.

Psalm 8:3-4 — When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and stars, which you have set in place, what is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them?

Psalm 19:1 — The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the works of his hands.

Psalm 24:1-2 — The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it; for he founded it on the seas and established it on the waters.

[Repeat]

The next couple of minutes is your time to respond through your personal creative expression. Feel free to write, draw, or journal, pray, or even sing. You are free to reflect on the earlier verses or lean into how the Lord interacts with you as you respond to him.

As we conclude our time together, feel free to reflect on the creative expressions you explored with our Creator today. Consider how these expressions can become a regular part of your worship beyond the Sunday service. The Lord speaks to us in many ways, and he has given us gifts for us to use to connect with him and serve his people.

May your God-inspired creativity be a source of meaningful connection with our Lord, and may you find pockets of time to make room daily beyond our Sunday gatherings.

Cara: Thank you for listening to this episode of GC Podcast. We hope you found this time valuable. We would love to hear from you. Email us at info@gci.org with your suggestions or feedback. And remember, healthy churches start with healthy leaders, so invest in yourself and in your leaders.

The post Creative Expressions of Worship w/ Lucy Santibanez-Enerio first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Discernment and Mapping Pt 3 w/ Heber Ticas

Welcome to the GC Podcast, a podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience.

Cara: Hello, friends, and welcome to this episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I am your host Cara Garrity, and now in this first quarter of 2024, we are switching things up a little bit. We are bringing you mini episodes that are focused on the processes and practices of discernment, strategic planning, and ministry action plans.

In our last two episodes, we heard from Pastor Hector and Juanca Barrero in GCI Bogotá. They shared about their experiences with their strategic processes and communication, their use of ministry action plans. And so, today we have Latin American Superintendent, Heber Ticas, with us to share, from his perspective as superintendent, what it means and what it looks like to support and develop this discernment, strategic planning, perspective on healthy church growth and vision throughout the region, particularly, from the perspective of Bogotá since that is who we heard from the past two episodes specifically.

And so, Heber, thank you much for being here and sharing with us. We appreciate your time.

Heber: Hey Cara, thank you for having me. It has been quite a while since I have been on the podcast.

I was wondering, did I do something wrong last time?

[00:01:44] Cara Garrity: We got to share the wealth, but this will be your next test, so do not mess it up.

[00:01:51] Heber Ticas: Yeah, I better get praying right now.

[00:01:53] Cara Garrity: No, I really enjoy having you on the podcast, Heber. I hope that our listeners took as much out of the past two episodes as I did.

I love hearing what God is doing in Bogotá and the way that the leaders and members are just saying yes and amen to participating in what they are discerning he is doing. And so, I am wondering in your role as superintendent, what are some of the ways that you equip pastors like Hector to lead their teams in discerning a strategic ministry action plan for each year?

[00:02:32] Heber Ticas: Cara, that is a good question. In my role as superintendent, and for all of us who are superintendents and regional directors or regional pastors, we’ve got to take up this mantle and put on this hat of consulting. Me, I am not too much of a coach. I do not have the patience for coaching but yes, in my role as superintendent, I’ve got to do a little bit of consulting.

When I engaged this congregation, especially the pastors and a few of their immediate leaders there, they had a good dynamic, and with some consulting, they could truly become a healthier expression of the church. With this congregation or this pastor, it is not too different than with other pastors that I have consulted with, in my role as superintendent. Our Team Based—Pastor Led structure really provides us an ability to have a greater understanding of what it is to lead from a good structure. That is key.

So just as with anything, when you are talking about equipping, it must be two sides, right? If I am consulting, you must have a side that is willing to listen and willing to embrace. And Hector and Paulina, particularly in their leadership, they embraced Team Based—Pastor Led from the beginning. With them doing that, then I can move on and talk about clarity of leadership roles and understanding what that means, a greater understanding of healthy ministry practices, and most importantly, a clarity of a preferred future—where it is that they want to go as a congregation, as a team.

I would start in those areas but also particularly in pastoral leadership as well. And I can get into that a little bit if you want.

[00:04:40] Cara Garrity: Yes, please.

[00:04:42] Heber Ticas: Team Based—Pastor Led gives us this really good structure, right? And we do not want to be pastor centric, like you said earlier, we want to share the wealth. We want to share practice. We want to be team-based and participate with Jesus and really understand that others have gifts as well.

The Holy Spirit has gifted others as much as the Holy Spirit has gifted the pastor. With that understanding, as pastors, we need to lead. And when I say that we need to lead, I am talking about [how] a pastor needs to understand, needs to know the vision, needs to know where we are going as the church.

A pastor needs to be a visionary pastor. When I talk about a visionary pastor, I am talking about that a leader who is a visionary develops and defines a clear picture of the envisioned future for others. You can articulate it and apply it to future thinking in ways that would engage the rest of the team and motivate others.

That is from a pastoral perspective. So now as the pastor is leading, preaching, and equipping, they are doing it with a future in mind. That’s pastoral leadership, a pastor who leads in this way. We will also understand what it means to lead the congregation as a whole, but also lead your immediate team. In our case, in our structure, making sure that you are leading your Avenue champions, that you are equipping them, and that they are doing the same thing, right?

The Apprentice Square really is a useful tool to be able to lead, in this way. And then also understanding what it means to lead strategically. Okay, if there is no preferred future, then there is no way that you can lead strategically. You’ve got to have these things clear in your mind as pastors and especially as senior pastors.

[00:06:42] Cara Garrity: Yes, and that is so good what you have said here, that the starting point really of strategic planning is, where are you and where you are going? You cannot be strategic if you do not know those things. And we heard that in our conversations with Hector and Juanca, that they really appreciate how you spent that time to really go through the Team Based—Pastor Led model so it could really be understood and embraced, so that there is that foundation for by what method are we moving forward, right? We are moving forward together as a team. But then you also supported them to articulate—I love how you say that “clear vision of that preferred future.” Then you can be strategic about where you are going. There is no strategy to wander around in the forest, right? It is the image that I get.

Yes, that is excellent. That is excellent.

[00:07:44] Heber Ticas: Yes. And you are so right. Where are you and where are you going? If you do not have those two things, if you cannot discern that, then there is no math, there is no strategy. You cannot put any legs to anything.

[00:08:00] Cara Garrity: As you are working with lead pastors across your region and local churches, what do you look for as indicators that a local team is starting to become more strategic in their ministry planning and pastoral leadership?

[00:08:19] Heber Ticas: Without a vision, there is no MAP. Without a strategic MAP, the vision is unattainable, right?

Pastors need to know the landscape. They need to know where they are. Discernment is truly key. Once you have discerned that, then it is important for me as a consultant and working with – whether it be my vision pastors or those who I am dedicating more time to in terms of consulting – then I can truly start looking out for those indicators. Are they really catching what we have been talking about? And then, if they caught it, they could articulate it verbally. Then I want to be able to look for indicators in terms of their ministry practices.

See, that is why I am huge on MAPs because on a MAP, you can put your thoughts and your ideas onto paper. And if you do it collectively, as a team, now you can be accountable to each other. But now because it is on the MAP, you can truly start implementing in what you are doing because it is guiding you and it is leading you. One of the first indicators that I am looking for is, have you been able to move from the idea in your mind into a MAP, into something that is written? Okay. That is one thing.

Then, I would be looking for collective clarity of the preferred future in a clear direction—because a MAP will give you direction. The pastor may have clarity. The pastor may know the preferred future, may know where we are going, but does your team, those around you? Do those really helping you in ministry, participating with you in ministry, do they know where you are going? Is it clear for them? So that is one of the first things that I want to see. I want to see that collectively as a team. Okay.

And then, I want to be able to see incremental steps. Are there incremental steps that have been taken, in implementation of the strategy that you put together, towards your preferred future to get there?

So those are some of the indicators that I would really want to see collectively in a team as they plan.

[00:10:43] Cara Garrity: Yes, that is good. And, as I have mentioned a couple of times in our past two episodes this year, we heard from a couple of the leaders in Bogotá about some of the ways they have grown in this discernment and visioning and their strategic planning and use of their MAP.I was excited and impressed about some of the things that I had heard and the way that they have become collectively clear and very vision led, very strategic.

I am wondering for you, as you have collaborated with them a lot more closely, what impact have you seen this strategic kind of ministry planning have on their healthy church growth?

[00:11:31] Heber Ticas: I started doing consulting with this church, and I understood, Cara, and I think we all understand that this is a process. It does not happen overnight. I have been collaborating with this team for a while now. I feel that I’m part of their congregation. I better myself in such a way that I feel like I am part of the church now. But I have seen the impact that I have first seen it has been in their senior leadership one of the things that that I saw in this congregation that they had.

They had folks there who I felt could lead, but I did not see any spaces for them to be able to lead. As I started doing some consulting with the pastor, with Hector and Paulina—because they are a team; they are a dynamic team. Hector’s the preacher there, and he brings a lot of good assets to ministry. You can hear it in his voice, right?

But Paulina is really a strategic leader there. And she does it in a quiet way, but she is so spirit led. And she has just got this discernment about allowing the spirit to lead.

One of the first things that I started talking about was truly about valuing who God has placed around and creating spaces for them. And I said, do you know what? One of our greatest challenges is really developing other leaders. And the reason that is a challenge for us is because as pastors, we do not even know that we are hogging up all ministry. And in the process, sometimes we just get frustrated, and we get burned.

I started talking about ministry descriptions and how is it that you can engage a leader and make sure that you are clear from a pastoral perspective and that leader is clear on what [they] are being asked to do and really is being empowered, truly going through the 4 Es. Empowering them and creating this space is commissioning them.

Hector had an awakening and he said, “Do you know what? I have never…” Because I started pointing out some names, just throwing out some names of folks that I had engaged in this church from some development that I had done in the first few visits that I did to this church when I took on the role of superintendent. I said, “Hector, we need to truly value development.”

And you know what he said? Something to the effect that, man, I need to repent. Because I have so many leaders here, sometimes they come and go, and I have not really valued them in this way of developing them.

To me, that was impactful. And not only did it impact me individually, but then to Hector I said, look, we were having a vision pastors conference. This was like some three years ago, two years ago, in Mexico City. I invited some vision pastors from Latin America. And I said, Hector, do you think you can do just this little workshop on your journey of valuing development? That man got up there in front of that group, he said, I just repent of not valuing the people around me and creating spaces for them and developing them.

When Hector saw this clearly, I said, this congregation can become an MTC church. This congregation can really become a place where they train, where they recruit, they develop, they launch leaders into some significant ministry. I am starting to see that.

I am starting to see that develop more value of development, creating spaces for others. When I start seeing that, I am like, okay, now this church is now planning, now they are being intentional. And then I see their MAPs, and I see how their team leaders and ministry workers surround it.

Then I say, okay, there are spaces here. In ministry planning, as you plan out your MAPs and as you plan out your year of ministry—the impact that I am seeing in this congregation is that the silos are no longer there, but they are working together as a team, and there are spaces on ramps and even off ramps. Sometimes we need to have off ramps available as well.

Those are some of the things that I have seen, but a humble heart, just humility. That is always so key in leadership.

[00:16:31] Cara Garrity: Yeah, and I think you’ve really pulled out something that’s important for us not to miss in the key leadership: that humble heart, that openness to God’s leading and transformation, not just of what we’re doing as leaders of the church, but of who we are and how we’re stewarding that leadership that God has brought us into for that season.

I just think of that amazing transformation that Hector had. Then, after that, it sounds like from the conversation that we had, a lot of the members of his team and then those who can step into new spaces of ministry, just that transformation they were able to experience has been so key and then being able to live out this strategy towards this preferred vision.

And that is really important because that openness and that humble heart to be changed and transformed shapes how we identify and discern a spirit led preferred vision, right? It is not just the mechanics of being strategic. I can strategically rob a bank tomorrow.

That is not necessarily in line with God’s desires for me, right? But if, as leadership, we can do what this team in Bogotá has done and be open to giving up our own ways that we have clung to, to be repentant, to say, God, what are you doing? Show us what you are doing and show us where you are taking us and your preferred vision.

And then we can be strategic. It builds clarity towards there, and it may not be what we have always done. We might have to give up some things, get uncomfortable, try some new things. But that is something that we should not miss. As I hear from you and from folks every time I talk to leaders in Bogotá, I think their willingness to be shaped by God is so critical in their healthy church growth that has been happening.

[00:18:51] Heber Ticas: Yes. Cara, let me align you back. Okay. We are not robbing any banks. Okay.

[00:19:00] Cara Garrity: We are not. I am not going to rob any bank. I am just saying strategy in and of itself can be used for good or evil.

[00:19:08] Heber Ticas: You know what? You said an especially important phrase: stewarding. Stewarding the leadership that God has given us that is truly a good word because, remember here, we are talking about pastors, and on many occasions, we are talking about pastors who have been leading, who have been in ministry for a long time.

And with anything, change is not easy. Change is difficult. And now when you start sharing your pulpit, when you start sharing ministry, and then you start thinking, are they going to do it right? Or they are too young, or they are too old? Or they are too this, or they are too that, right?

At the end of the day, we need to trust that it is his church, right? The story of leadership, it truly is about engaging, and equipping, and developing, and trusting. And you can have the best strategies in the world, but if there is not a trust factor, there is not a humility factor, there is not a Holy Spirit factor in your heart, in your thinking, in your processes you are going to have some issues.

[00:20:18] Cara Garrity: Amen. As we are coming up on the end of our time today, Heber, I want to ask you what word of advice would you give for our pastors around the world who are moving towards a more discerning and strategic participation in Jesus’s ministry that is more focused on healthy church vision?

[00:20:45] Heber Ticas: Yeah, I know this podcast goes all over our GCI world, and one of the first things that I want to say is that our structure of Team Based—Pastor Led really speaks to all contexts in diverse ways.

And I would want to say, understand your local context. Okay. Understand the local context within where God has placed you and from within you’re doing ministry, then know the team that the Lord has surrounded you with. Know the team. Even if you have not identified that team, know the folks that are around you, and ask God to give you clarity, ask the Lord to really give you direction of who, who has the giftings that you need for your local context.

And that requires engagement. Know your team, know the people around you, and then do not be discouraged if you feel you do not have the proverbial horses, per se, to accomplish the preferred future that God has given you. So just always remember that it is his church, that the ministry is participatory.

We are participating with Jesus but even knowing that, know that there’s participation, right? And know that you, as a pastor and as a leader, you have gifts that God has given you, and you’ve got to step into those gifts. All right you’ve got to pause, and you’ve got to seek the Lord. And okay, Lord, where do I want to go? Where are you taking me? Where are you taking us as a group? Okay. Who have you surrounded me with to help me go there?

So do not be discouraged. Be patient. Even like with Bogotá, man, I look at their team right now, and they got a stellar team. I started collaborating with them like pre-pandemic, and I look at their team now and it looks quite different.

God has been gracious in truly giving the pastors and their leaders eyes to be able to see others who can step in to ministry who may be quiet, quietly able to do things, but they are able to do it. They just were not given an opportunity in the past.

[00:23:05] Cara Garrity: Yes, absolutely.

Thank you for those words of wisdom. And I would just ask if you were willing to close us out this episode with the word of prayer over our pastors and our leaders, teams all over GCI, as we continue this journey of participating in Jesus’ ministry by the leading of the Spirit.

[00:23:32] Heber Ticas: Amen. Sure thing. Let us go ahead and pray.

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I am so thankful, Lord, for who we are in you, Christ, and who we are as a collective body, what we call GCI. And Lord, through this conversation, Father, I pray that it may be a blessing to the pastors and leaders who may engage it, Lord.

And Father, I pray that as we think about discernment strategies and ministry action plans, Father God, that they would not burden our hearts, that it would not blow our minds. On the contrary, Lord, that it would be a blessing, that your Holy Spirit would give us that understanding of what participation looks like for us. And yes, in our participation, Lord I believe that these elements of discernment and planning and mapping things and being strategic, are part of what we are being called to do.

Father God, I just pray that as pastors and leaders hear this conversation, that they will not be discouraged because of their immediate context of what they are seeing in their journey, Lord, in their leadership. But I pray, Father, that they may be encouraged, Lord, and that your Holy Spirit would bring clarity to their minds and to their hearts about where they are going and how they are going to get there.

Father God, I pray that this may be a resource for them, Lord. I pray a blessing on all those leaders in those churches that are already there, but we have not even seen them yet as pastors. Sometimes we just do not have this discernment to be able to see. I pray that you give us those eyes to be able to see clearly and discern who you have gifted us with, Lord, to be able to do ministry together.

Lord, I pray this in your name, Jesus. Amen.

[00:25:21] Cara Garrity: Amen. Thank you so much again, Heber. And folks, until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the GC Podcast. We hope you have found value in it to become a healthier leader. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic, or if there is someone who you think we should interview, email us at info at gci.org. Remember, healthy churches start with healthy leaders. Invest in yourself and your leaders.

The post Discernment and Mapping Pt 3 w/ Heber Ticas first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Discernment and Mapping Pt 2 w/ Hector and Juan Carlos Barrero

Welcome to the GC Podcast, a podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience.

Cara: Hello friends and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host Cara Garrity. And today we are going to continue our mini episodes for this quarter focused on process and practices of discernment, strategic planning, and ministry action plans [MAPs]. Let’s welcome back Pastor Hector and Juanka who are joining us to share their experiences with the ministry action plans and their planning in the local context of their church, Comunión de Gracia Internacional Bogotá.

Welcome, welcome. Thanks for joining us again today.

Hector: Thank you, Cara, for inviting us.

[00:01:06] Cara: Absolutely. We appreciated all the wonderful insights you shared with us last month about your team based processes of planning and putting together your ministry action plans.

Today, I wanted to focus more specifically on putting those action plans into action. Sometimes we plan and then it stops at the planning. But with the ministry action plans, we really want to move into action and true participation in the ministry that God’s up to in our very midst.

And I want to start with this question. What steps does your team take to actually put your ministry action plan into action?

[00:01:53] Juanka: Yes, Cara. The first step will be defining our goals as a team. Defining those goals is a process that takes every member to take some time during the week. For example, on Saturdays, we are meeting every single Saturday. The first Saturday of each month, we are gathering with all the ministry leaders. And we are just going step-by-step, taking our time with a lot of patience and analyzing, for example, the calendar in which we have all the information and analyzing what is next and the steps that we need to work on.

For example, the priorities that we have and also the deadlines that we have for events. Most of the time we talk about what’s happening during the week, what’s happening, for example, on Sundays, who is in charge of what.

The steps that we take are basically to gather each Saturday, gathering sometimes on Zoom and having clear our goals and specific events that we have, and the person responsible for that.

It is not always perfect, of course. People change, for example, locations and they get pregnant. The families get bigger. And because of that, sometimes the dynamic is challenging, but nonetheless it’s flowing, and it is very positive.

Basically, the steps are just to make time to have meetings virtually or face-to-face. Obviously, we like more meetings that are face-to-face because we can have a chocolate with bread, that we call here in Colombia como chocolate y pan. And so that’s something that we love to do. And so, when we do that, we can make things happen and we talk about the events, all the plans.

[00:04:29] Cara: Yeah. Actually, consistently meeting together as a team and then referencing the ministry action plan that you’ve put together as you meet and having those check-ins. That seems very practical and a basic way to really make sure you’re getting into action. It’s good.

[00:04:49] Hector: I could say, for example, in the Faith Avenue we decided to study, We Believe. Each class is planned with who is going to teach it in the group of the Faith Avenue. We are preparing the leaders first. We want them to know our doctrine, what we believe. Also, that’s the first step because now we are preparing them to be teachers.

So, we have a small group training those who are going to train others and that has a specific timing. We give the responsibilities to everybody with dates and subjects for everybody. And it has been very good. It’s a good exercise. For example, last time it was Tuesday, yesterday, we had a class on the beliefs on hell.

That subject is very challenging. What is the future of those who are not ready to or not willing to believe, those who rejected the gospel? Where are they going to end up? That’s a very difficult subject. So that’s why we have to train our leaders how to respond, how to prepare, how to analyze certain scriptures.

So we go through our booklet, We Believe, and I would say that’s an example of how we planned specifically on how to reach [goals] and people are doing it. Leaders are doing it. They are following their plan.

[00:06:50] Cara: Yeah, that’s excellent. And using the resources that are available to them. And I loved what you said, I heard that you’re putting into action plans that are going to create more action.

You said your small groups training, the people who are going to train more people and go from there. And so that’s a really neat thing that you’re creating more and more motion and movement and participation.

You all in our last episode talked about this calendar and this folder where you keep all of your plans, and your ministry leaders are able to access it and all of the team members.

Can you share a little bit more about that process that you use to communicate to your team, that your team uses to communicate with each other your ministry action plan amongst all of the team members?

[00:07:45] Juanka: Yes, of course. Basically, we have nine or 10 Google sheets obviously in one file and that file is shared with all the ministries and the leaders. The first sheet is very important because it talks about the mission and objectives. And this is very important for all the people that have access to this document because we don’t forget our mission, our vision, the theme that we have and the goals that each Avenue has.

In this case, we have the pastoral Avenue. For example, in our case, we have for 2023, we have to prepare and open spaces for young people who are going to participate in the proclamation of the gospel. This means that we are giving spaces to young people to preach, to be the leaders of ministries, to have the opportunity to serve in church and outside the church in representation of Grace Communion International or obviously, representing Christ. But this is something that we want to do. So, we have been meeting with these groups, preparing them.

Also, in the Hope Avenue we wanted to create an environment that leads people to worship in community and preparing other people. So, we have this idea that we took from Giant [Giant Worldwide]. (I don’t know if I can mention that.) But yeah, we love the idea of, I do you watch; I do you help; you do I help; you do I watch. [Apprentice Square]

We are implementing that system for developing new leaders, new servers. We actually have a lot of new servers, people that are helping in the church. They’re very committed, and we love that. And the same thing is happening in the Avenue of Faith and the Avenue of Love.

All of those concepts are written in the first part of the Google sheets. Then we have the calendar. The calendar is super important because it communicates to our team basically the MAP, right? For example, on July the 3rd, we have this gathering about something. And then the 5th of July we have, for example, a Bible study, 7:30, and everybody knows that this is going to happen.

And so, it’s super practical. It is an incredible way to communicate to our team because we also communicate these events every single Sunday when we have our services, but it is also written down in our calendar.

And so that’s super important. In addition to that, we have some platforms. For example, we have Facebook, Instagram. We used to have TikTok, but we decided not to continue. We do have something on Spotify uploading the sermons.

And all of this has been working with the third part of our Google sheet, because we have a schedule. For example, most of the time we are sharing on Facebook on Saturdays because we use Facebook just to announce our church gatherings. Everything that we do is written there. It is there, the information.

And so, we love to have that because it communicates to our team. All the other remaining sheets are regarding the Avenue of Hope. And if you go, for example, to the Avenue of Hope. You will find everything related, like the manuals, like everything that we have developed regarding the worship team or the servants’ ministry, the children’s ministry. Everything is there, the youth ministry, all of the ideas, the goals, the dates, the information about the young people attending, the meetings, the woman’s ministry.

And it is the same for the Avenue of Love. We have, for example, the evangelism manuals that are basically like church hacks that we have taken very seriously because they apply to our context. The prayer meeting link.

We have something that is called the Chocolatada, for example, in the Love Avenue. It’s the third Saturday of each month. We have that Chocolatada, which is basically sharing food and the message of the gospel with people from the community. And so, this is something that we are always doing in the Love Avenue right now, and everything is planned there.

So, I think that the process that we use to communicate our team MAP is basically to have this document very available to all the leaders and to remind ourselves every single Saturday that, hey, this next Saturday, remember this. There’s this event we expect this person to be in charge. For example, you or this couple are going to be preparing the music, or you guys are going to do this and that.

Everybody knows what they’re supposed to do, and there’s always movement, and we love that. We love that the church is always moving. For example, something positive that we can tell you now today is that the last Saturday the church was full.

We had two weddings. And so, there were a lot of people visiting church. We had the chance of celebrating love and the love of couples that want to live in Christ. And so, this is something that we continue to do. We love to be always with events.

[00:14:26] Hector: Yeah, we had a wedding on Saturday and then Sunday, we had the second wedding and every one of those couples invited their families. So, we have people attending our church who are not members, but they were participating in this activity. So, it was good. It was excellent because it was apart from church services; it was different activities.

So, it was a good thing, and it was already planned because people who are going to get married, they plan in advance. So, we were able to plan these things from months ago. We have a group of people who help us in planning and doing things, the servers who are involved in that.

The people who make the wedding cake are members and people who serve the food are members. And so, it was excellent. It was a lot of work, but it was a good weekend last weekend. It was excellent. So, we are happy because of that.

Also, we stopped airing our radio program because of different reasons. One of those is economic reasons, too expensive. Now we are doing shorts on YouTube. And we send our shorts, those one-minute YouTube shows. I would say we send them daily to our members and also, we’ve published them on Facebook and on YouTube, of course. So, it has been also a good idea. And all of that had been planned because we needed a way to cover our lack of the radio program.

But it’s coming along very well.

[00:16:22] Juanka: Yeah, I wanted to add to that, that it is incredible to see people moved by the Spirit and just serving and helping in these events. The last Saturday, I think it was—oh, it was Sunday—one of the girls that was helping out with the taking the cake and the beverages and all of that, she fell on the stairs, but she was like, no, I want to continue. Don’t worry. I’m okay.

Obviously, we immobilized her a little bit to see if it was too serious, but the attitude and also the love to serve, it is incredible. It is absolutely incredible. It’s like a joy to serve others and just to celebrate together all of these events.

[00:17:19] Hector: I saw the servants all of them working together. And I was so thankful to them after the activities, the two activities, because the group of people who served in both weddings were the same. I gave them a lot of thanks. I was so moved because of their service, their willingness to participate, to give their time. That’s great to see people so involved and loving what they are doing. It is great.

[00:17:55] Juanka: So, we had gathered during the week, virtually planning everything.

We had everything clear like the arrival of the bride, everything was like written down specifically. Let’s say, all the things that needed to be done, had someone responsible. While one server was working, for example, in the flowers and gathering all the things, all others were dealing with the tables and stuff like that, but everything was written down.

And so that process of communication, like the MAP in that Excel file—sorry, sheets file on Google, is absolutely practical and incredible. Yeah. It is an example.

[00:18:53] Cara: Yeah, absolutely. And it sounds like this open communication that you have that’s very clear allows more people to participate in that process. Like you both were saying, you were really amazed at the folks who served even for these weddings.

And I’ve been picking up on, even in the ministries, a lot more people have been able to participate as you all have grown in the Avenues and planning in this way.

And so, I really appreciate that. And one of the things that I want to point out that I see in your kind of communication with your teams and your leaders is it’s standardized. You guys have a clear system and process that you use that your leaders know about.

You mentioned that everyone has access to these things. It’s in a central location. It’s not random or haphazard your communication. It’s not, oh, when I remember to tell so and so I’ll tell them about this event that I just scheduled. It’s very consistent. It sounds very streamlined where you know what to expect, your leaders know what to expect. And they know that they can depend on this communication system to know what’s happening and what’s expected of them, to know what their response is and what they’re not, what’s coming up.

And I think that is so important for a communication system for a team. When communication is strong like that, you see something like how seamlessly it sounds like this wedding happened. But when communication breaks down, that might be when you show up for an event and you’re like who’s serving the food and who’s bringing this out and what time is this happening?

But I love that this really standardized system of communication that you all have developed and put to use with your teams frees you to work really smoothly together. I think that’s so excellent, and you found the right system that works for you all. But it’s consistent; it’s a system. It’s one that everybody knows and can access.

[00:21:20] Hector: Yeah. I would add that it has to do also with gifts of the servants. We have some people there that are really gifted people. They are organizers, people who know how to organize a wedding, people who have experience because they don’t work only with us, but they have experience outside the church helping in this organizing events.

So, we have a lady that is very well trained in organizing things. So, I think that she has the gift also, I would say in that aspect.

And I would say it also that in the other Avenues. It’s the same. For example, Monica, who is the one who leads the Faith Avenue, she is very converted. She’s a teacher. She teaches English and French. And but she has so much passion to teach. She loves the Lord, and she trains herself and prepares herself to teach. We believe. I would say that we are blessed with her in her role as the leader of the Faith Avenue, she has the gift.

So, I would say the gift in people is very important and we are blessed that we have people that have the gift to lead each Avenue.

[00:23:00] Juanka: Yes. And because of those incredible people, we feel that we are experts now because, for example, with the person in charge of the weddings, these two weddings are nothing. We have done more weddings this year and we’re just used to now the whole event. Oh, now we are experts because she’s so organized and she tells everybody what to do.

Yeah, she’s gifted. So maybe we are also learning from her. And that’s an incredible process.

[00:23:40] Hector: To see her function is good, to see how organized she is.

[00:23:45] Cara: Yes. Yes. Yes. And I think about that. That’s a really cool thing that you guys sound like a well-oiled machine, that people are serving in their right spots.

And that you’ve set up this almost like this cool dance with your leadership where people know when to step forward, and they lead. And they know when to step back and someone else is leading according to their gifting. And because you have some of these foundational structures in place, she’s able to step forward and be like, okay, I know what to do; I can tell everyone what to do.

And we’ve got this communication system that we need, and she can just go forward and serve in her gifting. And like you said, then it’s like nothing, right? Okay, whatever. We had a wedding. That’s incredible.

[00:24:38] Hector: Yeah, I would mention, in front of Juan Carlos, I have to say and recognize that Juan Carlos is a very important person right now because he’s in charge of the Hope Avenue, and he does an excellent job organizing the worship

Everything, every little aspect of what happens during the church service, the call, the gathering every Sunday, he’s in charge of that. He’s the one who plans the songs that we are going to sing and who is going to do what.

And he also is in charge of the equipment. And the YouTube record of the sermons and publishing the sermons and all of that, it is Juan Carlos. So I am a blessed person that Juan Carlos and Paulina do a lot of things. So, I am a blessed pastor. In a sense, I do little, very little because I have a good team of people working around me, who are very efficient. And Juan Carlos, of course, with technology, is very good. I’m not that good. I’m a little bit behind in many things, but he is updated all the time, which is a blessing for me.

[00:26:01] Juanka: I believe that we are just a team, a very gifted team.

The person that is responsible for the weddings or the person that is responsible for—we have something that is called El Mercado de la Libra, which is some help that we are giving to people that are in need. And so, we usually buy food, and we gather that food and every single Sunday we give that food to people that are in need, to some families.

And we have a person that is very outgoing. She’s incredible and she has a very interesting charisma. And I think that we’re just doing our part in whatever we are designed to do. And that’s one beautiful thing that can happen. We are not a small community, I will say, but we’re growing, and everybody’s doing something super cool.

[00:27:07] Hector: We pray that we will continue like that. We see God is helping, blessing us. We hope that we will continue growing healthy. And of course, our goal is in the future, if we continue in this way that we are being trained, we want to start a new congregation, of course, according to instructions. And to do it well, to be a success and to do it not just in a hurry, but very well planned. But we would like to have a church, a daughter church.

[00:27:57] Cara: Yeah. Oh, we join you in prayer for that. That would be an incredible, incredible feature that God would bring you to. Oh, I just love hearing about what God’s doing in your midst.

But for time’s sake, I have just one more question for you all. As your team works together in this really oiled machine kind of way, and you’re able to communicate really clearly and you communicate progress to one another on each assignment, on each area of responsibility and events, what does it look like on your team to make sure that you have that kind of rhythm of accountability with one another to make sure that we all are following through on the things that we say we’re going to by the deadlines that we say that we’re going to? What does that look like for you guys?

[00:29:03] Juanka: I have to say that it’s to be accessible. When we are accessible, relationships flourish. And that’s the key to having good relationships, to have good communication. Obviously, nothing is perfect. There’s going to be challenges. There’s going to be problems because we’re human.

And we usually don’t communicate well. Whatever we want to say, sometimes the other person understands something completely different or has a different idea. So, the process is challenging sometimes to reach an agreement, but along the way it’s just expressing love, patience, and joy to serve together. And I think that is truly the secret of a healthy church: good relationships.

There are going to be problems along the way but how we solve those issues and how we talk to the others and how we communicate the ideas in the best possible way is our intended impact. The actions that we’re having, the effectiveness after an event to measure whatever happened, good or bad, what can we improve? Nothing is perfect, right? We forget about something or something happened that was not supposed to happen, but we just reinvent ourselves. We just have to move forward and have a very positive attitude, just accepting that we are all human.

I’m going to give you an example. Sometimes when we are preparing the presentation for the songs, something happens along the way, and we have some grammar mistakes. And so that is something that can be frustrating, but if we take it too seriously it can be a problem.

Just don’t worry, take it easy. Just fix it and just move along and let’s sing together. Let’s have a great time because stress is everywhere in our jobs and in the streets. Even if we have problems and difficulties, and even though nothing is perfect, we just continue, and it doesn’t matter if the computer explodes or something unexpected happens. We are suddenly—another time we were without electricity in the middle of the worship. There was a little bit of laughter, but we just continued singing.

And it’s the adaptability to continue forward and not being so perfect that everything is like a problem, but just like adapting with what we have.

[00:32:35] Hector: Cara, I would like to add something that comes to my mind right now, and it is also the blessing that we have over here.

It is to have a family integrated to all the aspects of the congregation. I would say that, for example, Paulina, my wife, is a very important, determined aspect of the growth of the church. When it comes to the maturity of the pastor, I would say that a family that is integrated to the activities of the congregation, that the whole family loves the church and all of them participate and speak or are involved somehow.

I’m not saying that it has to be like that everywhere. No, it’s not what I’m trying to say, but what I’m saying is that I have the blessing of having my family integrated with the things that happen in the congregation. I think that it is an excellent thing that your wife, your children, everybody around you have the passion for Christ and the church and the activities and the people and the activities. All of that, it is a blessing. It is a blessing.

So, I would say to a pastor that it is an important aspect of the growth of the congregation for every member to see that your own family is involved. Of course, I’m not saying that it has to be like that everywhere in every case, but I say that I feel myself blessed with that situation. I see my children involved. My wife’s very much involved. I would say that she is more than half of my ministry, much more than that, because all the ladies come to her to pray, to look for advice, and to share their problems, situations in the family. It is all to her.

The wife is very important in the role of pastor. And I would say that, and I pray for all the families, pastoral families that they have to be very cohesive and united in their calling.

I hope that it’s not going to be taken as a negative thing, but I will say that it is very important that your family participate in the health and the activities and everything of the congregation.

[00:35:41] Cara: To have that support network for you as a pastor is a really beautiful thing. Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Thank you both so much for sharing your experiences and your wisdom with us again today. And not to give too much of a spoiler, but folks, you’ll get an opportunity to hear from Pastor Hector and Juanka again later this year. And look forward to that and we’ll learn some more from them then.

But for now, Juanka, would you be willing to say a prayer for our pastors and ministry leaders as they look to put their own ministry action plans into action?

[00:36:31] Juanka: Yes, of course.

Heavenly Father, we pray today for all the pastors and leaders in churches that love you, that are on a mission to live the gospel and preach the gospel. We ask, Father, that you give them creativity, that you give them good relationships, that you give them support from different people, from all kinds of people, so that they can expand their ministries, so that they can delegate to others to create teams and to create incredible events so that Christ is always preached.

Thank you, Lord, for all of the churches that we have and that they are gathering, and they are looking to be healthy churches. We pray that families gather and that they are united into the mission of a healthy church, that the Avenues grow and that the Holy Spirit moves people’s hearts towards making the mission of preaching and living the gospel.

Thank you, Lord, for everything, for this time, for Cara, and we bless you. We have prayed in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

[00:38:14] Cara: Amen. Amen. That’s all for today, folks. Keep on, until next time, living and sharing the gospel.

We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the GC Podcast. We hope you have found value in it to become a healthier leader. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic, or if there is someone who you think we should interview, email us at info@gci.org. Remember, Healthy Churches start with healthy leaders; invest in yourself and your leaders.

The post Discernment and Mapping Pt 2 w/ Hector and Juan Carlos Barrero first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Discernment and Mapping Pt 1 w/ Hector and Juan Carlos Barrero

Welcome to the GC Podcast, a podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience.

Cara: Hello friends and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and this is the first episode of 2024. And in this first quarter of 2024, we’re switching things up a little bit. We’re going to be bringing you three mini episodes focused on the process and practices of discernment, strategic planning, and ministry action plans (MAP).

And so today here to talk with us about their experiences with Team Based—Pastor Led discernment, strategic planning, and ministry action plans are Pastor Hector and Juanka, coming to us from Comunión de Gracia Internacional Bogotá. Thank you both so much for being here with us today.

Juanka: Hello, everybody. How are you?

[00:01:08] Cara: We’re doing well. We’re doing well. I appreciate y’all spending your time today. And so why don’t we just jump right in because we got some mini episodes, and I know y’all have some really insightful things to share with us in just a little bit of time.

So, when we talk about team-based discernment and planning for the ministry locally there in Bogotá, what is a best practice that you guys have found that helps your team plan all together?

[00:01:36] Juanka: Yes, Cara, thank you for that question.

We can honestly tell you that we can describe our planning into virtual planning meetings and face-to-face planning meetings, using the MAP. And definitely virtual meetings are more practical for maybe the first part of planning. And the face-to-face meetings are also very important because we plan, and we analyze what we did. Maybe more ideas are shared.

And generally speaking, we gathered via Zoom to collaborate and that’s the best practice that we have. And within those two practices, they complement each other. As I mentioned before, we use the MAP document or the idea of the ministry action plan. Basically, that’s what we have.

Very practical and very cut to the chase.

[00:02:53] Cara: I like that, practical and cut to the chase. That’s good. Just get to those priorities of participating in Jesus’s ministry.

And that idea of cutting to the chase: when your team’s coming together to plan, in these meetings virtually and in person, what process do you use to decide what your priorities are going to be either that year or that month that quarter?

[00:03:22] Juanka: Yes, most of the time we meet for example on December the 1st or some time in December, let’s say. And we write down all the necessary and most important events and ideas based on our calendar. Our calendar is the most important thing for us.

It’s like our infrastructure. Let’s say that the calendar has everything related to every single Avenue’s planning. In that calendar, we have all of the activities and the events with the dates, with the person in charge. So, the calendar is something super important, and so the calendar has to be ready beforehand.

We can modify it in the Zoom meetings that we are telling you about. And in those meetings, we, as a team, step-by-step, can determine which tasks are truly important for each Avenue and for each ministry.

And because of this, we have to stick to a schedule and some dates that reflect, for example, the priorities, and how are we going to fulfill those priorities. So as a team, again, the calendar is so important.

And finally, I guess I will say that the process to decide those priorities is that we gather with each ministry leader, and we evaluate the goals based on the following questions, right? The questions that the MAP proposes.

And the questions are like this, does this outreach provide the opportunities for church members to volunteer and serve? So important. Does this give the opportunity for neighbors, for the community, and for organizations to participate with the church in events that are not, for example, the Sunday mass or the Sunday gatherings and are more related with the community?

Also, another question that we ask is, is this outreach inclusive? For example, if we want to go and make an event for elderly or for children, are we being inclusive for the community? And all of these priorities and all of these plans are based on: how can we make our community participate in what we’re doing?

Yes, basically that’s the answer.

[00:06:25] Cara: Yes, and I don’t want it to be lost, that last thing that you said. When your ministry leaders come together, you filter through these questions for priorities. Really, it’s filtering through these questions that help you identify: are these things in alignment with the purpose of our church and the particular ways that your local church in Bogotá is wanting to and feeling like God is inviting you to be present in your neighborhood and to engage that local community?

Because that’s the priority to be the church. And I think that’s an excellent practice that you guys have, to come together and identify those priorities.

And then I love that idea of the calendar. That’s really practical and an excellent way to do that. And that speaks to even this next question that I have for you. As a whole team in the church, what are some ways that you come together as a team when you plan, so that the Avenues don’t become disconnected and put together completely separate plans or priorities that don’t have anything to do with each other?

[00:07:43] Hector: I would say, Cara—this is Hector—that in our monthly meetings with everybody, with all the leaders, we make emphasis in our friendship, we share together. And we take time to share with each other. So, our meetings are very friendly, and all of us give ideas. In fact, the calendar is open for everybody to add ideas. Not right in the meetings, but after the meetings.

For example, anybody can get into the calendar and add an idea. And we have a system to approve those ideas or to say no. It’s not the moment. It’s not the time, for example. So, everybody participates in a direct way in what we are doing. And we have been seeing a different environment, I would say, or a context different than before, and it is that everybody is participating.

I am really moved, could I say that, to see how people are getting involved in everything, in every aspect of the church because of this way of doing things. It is more intentional too in our meetings, our friendship, and inviting everybody to participate.

[00:09:13] Cara: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I love how there’s a relational foundation there. That in those relationships, that’s what that collaboration in ministry participation is built out of.

And I love how you’re saying there’s been that increase in people participating and being in that, and people can have that direct, hands-on participation.

I also want to highlight that you said you have a system; everyone gets to share their ideas and put their ideas out there and everyone’s voice is heard. And you also have a system for how those ideas are approved or maybe “not right now” or “later.” So that it’s clear to the team, to the members of the church, how those decisions are being made. That’s so excellent. I love that.

[00:10:09] Juanka: The system basically is a sheet file like on Google. And we have nine or ten sheets on Google that we shared with all the ministry leaders and all the people in charge of the Avenues, the servers in all the ministries of the church. And basically, they can upload information, and they can write their plans because there’s a space for everybody, and they will communicate what they’re doing, what they’re planning.

Basically, we have the mission, the vision, the goals, the theme of the year, our values, and it’s divided into several important topics in which we can access anytime, anywhere.

So, it is a practical system, and we can see what the youth ministry, for example, has planned for next Sunday. Anybody can see it. We have support from the other ministries in case someone wants to attend or wants to help. And so, this is definitely working for us. I had the idea of using the MAP, but sharing the document for all, not all the members of the church, but all the people involved in the ministry, in the leadership.

[00:12:02] Cara: Yes. And as you say that it makes me think that then those lines of communication are open, right? Like you said, you can see what Children’s Church is doing as a leader of another area, and then that support can come or even that collaboration. As leaders, you know what each other is doing and so you can support one another, and it’s clear what is happening. That really strengthens that team-based aspect of your planning.

[00:12:38] Hector: I have seen that everybody wants to participate doing things this way. And I am so glad that everybody is feeling more important, in the sense that they know that their opinion is important. And it is. Their opinion is important for all of us.

And it has given them, all the leaders, some maturity and also respect in the sense that their ideas are taken into consideration and their participation is growing more and more. And frankly, I feel so happy with that because I don’t have to do everything. I am allowed now to take my rest.

I concentrate on giving my sermons whenever I have to preach. I see more people capable and prepared and able and with the desire to preach. So that’s very good. And things happen even without me knowing every specific aspect. So, it’s good to see everybody working and doing their own job.

[00:14:03] Cara: Pastor, that makes me so happy too. When we say Team Based—Pastor Led, what you’ve just described there is exactly that. And just the words that came to mind, really what y’all are doing, you’re equipping the saints for participation in Jesus’s ministry. That’s beautiful, it’s a beautiful thing.

And I’m wondering as you’re doing that and participation is increasing and people are feeling like their gifts and their opinions are valued, how do you continue to work together to articulate those specific goals that you have that are being written out?

Like Juanka, I heard you mention that you’ll have a specific theme for the year and these specific goals each time. How do you work together to articulate what those specific aspects are each year for your congregation?

[00:15:06] Juanka: Great question. Great question. For example, our theme 2023 is “Rebuilding the Church,” starting from scratch, let’s say, because of the pandemic situation, because many things changed.

And so, we wanted to have a vision to be a church that honors God by proclaiming the message of Jesus Christ through community service, so that people can grow in faith, hope, and love in a way that makes a difference in their lives. And basically, with saying this, we wanted to focus a little bit more on the Love Avenue.

We are, I will say, pretty strong in the Hope Avenue. We have been [for] years having incredible rhythms for the gatherings and the worship and the sermons. But we needed to go out. So, this leads to this incredible opportunity of having our first Outside the Walls event.

It was on August 26, 2023, and basically to answer your question, we just gathered as I told you before. First virtually, we discussed ideas. Sometimes it’s challenging because there are too many ideas, and we have to get, again, practical, and to write things that are understandable for everybody. So, we took some time defining the terms, but once the terms are defined, the values are defined, the goals for each Avenue, including the pastoral avenue, are defined.

So, we will gather face-to-face, and that’s where all the magic happens, we make plans, we talk about budgets, we talk about providers, everything. And we make sure that the plan is going to work and because of that, it is so important to gather first virtually and then face-to-face be aligned with the concept of a healthy church in our mission vision and objectives.

[00:17:26] Cara: That is such an intentional process. Can you tell us a little bit more … or go ahead, Hector. Were you going to add?

[00:17:40] Hector: Yes, I was going to mention that I was impressed with that activity, this first Outside the Walls activity. It was so impressive for myself that I was not confident that it was going to be a success.

I was the first one who was in doubt. I wasn’t secure. It was the first time we were going to work and invite the children of our community to an activity. Our strong point in the past was inviting through radio, but this time it was not radio. It was going house by house, building after building, inviting people of our community to bring their children to our community.

And I said, no, nobody is going to come. I think that is going to be very difficult. I was very negative at the beginning. But this work of teamwork, that everybody was so enthusiastic, inspired me.

To see people involved, people planning, calling the providers of services to this activity, all of them doing their work, ended up in an excellent activity.

We had a lot of people, and the fruit of that is that we have new people attending our weekly church services, and I am looking forward to the next event. I am totally changed by this activity. I now know that it is possible to reach our community.

And I am very enthusiastic now. I changed my point of view from very negative—I have to confess that—to a mind of faith and to be more secure that things are possible. Yes, we can do things, and people will respond. If we have good planning and activities and things to offer, people will come.

[00:20:04] Cara: Praise God. Praise God for that. And I really admire that in the intentionality of your planning that—and you mentioned this, Pastor Hector—within the teamwork, that you guys were able to pursue a goal that maybe felt bigger than any one of you thought you could do on your own or it was something really new, right?

Juanka, you even mentioned that the Love Avenue was not the Avenue that felt the strongest for you all at first, but you intentionally, in discernment, you thought about: Look, we’ve had this pandemic. What does it mean to rebuild the church? This, for you, meant to be in your community and to focus on the Love Avenue.

And so that opportunity to come together as a team and to discern and be intentional, wow, how powerful that’s been! Just hearing the difference that’s made for you all as leaders, for your community, and for your gathering church membership, that’s incredible.

It’s incredible to hear.

[00:21:21] Hector: I would say that to release people, to allow them to participate is the results are incredible, because people take their responsibility to levels that are higher than even what you expect. And people participate when you give them the opportunity. They will give everything, more than what you think they will be involved with.

I saw them involved with a lot of enthusiasm. It was a surprise for me to see those results and everybody was enjoying their assignment. So, it was excellent. It was a good experience.

[00:22:13] Cara: I love that.

[00:22:14] Juanka: Yeah. In addition to this, we are also grateful because of the support from GCI, because of Pastor Heber and all of the ideas of the Avenues were crucial in making this possible, especially to expanding the Love Avenue.

Four years ago, we were not centered, and we were not thinking about the Avenues and how they are so important and different phases of the church, different missions of the church. So basically, yes. Thank you so much for your support because you guys are always creating ideas and different perspectives and different documents and things that allow us—all the churches in Latin America and in the world—have these rhythms and good practices that allow the Spirit to just touch people and reach with the love of Christ.

[00:23:28] Cara: Amen. It’s an expression of a team based all across the denomination, right? Yeah. So good to see. I have one last question for you guys for today.

One of the things I’ve been struck with is the intentionality that you all have had in your planning with your team. And so how is preparing a strategic ministry action plan, an intentional ministry action plan different for you all than just a to-do list of things? Like, we’re going to do this this year and this this month.

What difference has that made for you guys in the local congregation?

[00:24:11] Juanka: Yeah, excellent question. Maybe talking about the opportunity to expand our minds with new material, I will say that the difference of just writing down a to-do list is that we can actually create like a more organized system. In our case, we created this sheet, a Google file, that everybody can see and the TMAP [team ministry action plan] and the IMAP [individual ministry action plan] which you guys shared. I think it was in last month’s Equipper. It’s definitely applicable because everybody knows what to do. There are due dates, there are responsibilities, a person in charge of something or some process. And everybody is organized, focused on what needs to be done, and at the same time, we are informed of the process.

We can see, in a nutshell, for example, what is happening with the ministry, the children’s ministry, or with the worship ministry, and how we are participating in an event. And it is beautiful to say this because we feel part of a community.

Sometimes in the past it felt like you were living, for example, your job during the week and then Saturdays and Sundays at church, but now you’re connected all the time. And so, there are more conversations, there’s more information, more ideas. And definitely this ministry action plan is way different than just a to-do list.

A to-do list works maybe for an individual, but the ministry action plan and the TMAP and IMAP, I will say that they organize better. Our ideas, they make better and the process easier. Because we don’t have to create anything because you guys sent everything for us just to write down the specifics and all the things that we need to do to reach the goals.

[00:26:41] Hector: I would add that we cannot take for granted this job that Heber has been doing with us through more than a year and teaching us the basic things: Love Avenue, Hope Avenue, Faith Avenue. It sounds very easy, but it takes time to pass the ideas to the congregation, to the leaders.

So, I feel that we already did that job, which is great in my opinion. I think that everybody now understands which are the things we are working on. And it is clear for the congregation, which is very important because everybody knows now that there is a Faith Avenue, a Hope Avenue, a Love Avenue, and what does it mean.

And everybody wants to participate somehow in one of these three areas. And for me, that’s an accomplishment. It’s something that, of course, we didn’t do by ourselves. It was, again, your support and Heber’s support. I think that we already are in a situation in which everybody understands those basic concepts.

[00:28:19] Cara: Yeah. And that lays such a great foundation to move forward in unity, in vision, and ministry. Oh, this has been so rich! Thank you so much for sharing some of your experience with us. I know that it’ll be helpful to our listeners because this is just so practical. Like you said at the start, we’ll just cut to the chase and bring that focus.

And so, thank you for spending your time with us today. Pastor Hector, would you be willing to say a prayer over our pastors and ministry leaders in GCI for their processes of discernment, strategic planning, and putting together ministry action plans?

[00:29:10] Hector: Yes, of course. So let us pray.

We are so thankful, our Lord Jesus, for what you are doing with our denomination. Our prayers as pastors are for you to stay with us, to provide us the ideas, the planning, all those things that make our church, our denomination continue going forward, growing as a healthy church.

I want to bless our president, Greg, the job he’s doing, with so many people around him, all of them doing a great job. We ask for your blessing for our denomination; we always pray for us. I always remember that we paid a high price to come out from our past and be in this beautiful present and to have a beautiful future.

Our Lord Jesus, please continue helping us, giving us the vision to do things. Please bring growth to our denomination, in the congregations, pastors to be mature, to delegate, to put in practice what we have been receiving and your Spirit in us, guiding us through these challenging times, difficult times But with your help and your presence among us, we are very confident that we will continue growing and existing. We ask these things to you, our Lord Jesus, our Savior. Amen. Amen.

[00:31:17] Cara: Amen. Thank you all so much, and until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the GC Podcast. We hope you have found value in it to become a healthier leader. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic, or if there is someone who you think we should interview, email us at info@gci.org. Remember, Healthy Churches start with healthy leaders; invest in yourself and your leaders.

The post Discernment and Mapping Pt 1 w/ Hector and Juan Carlos Barrero first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Culture Creation w/ Julie Frantz

Welcome to the GC Podcast. A podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to this episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today I’m blessed to interview Julie Frantz, pastor of Grace Communion Cincinnati East and West, wife and mom of four. She loves New Mexican food and adventure in all its forms, good, bad, and ugly.

Julie, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s so good to have you on the GC Podcast.

Julie: Thank you, Cara. I’m excited to be here.

[00:00:49] Cara: Yes, and I’m looking forward to the richness of this conversation today. We’re going to be talking about creating culture in our local congregations. The first thing I want to ask is when we talk about the culture of a local congregation, what does that mean to you?

[00:01:06] Julie: When I think of the culture of a local congregation, I think about people—people who have shared life and shared belief and ultimately, we hope and we look for a shared mission and a people that shares their identity in Christ where we together grow and together become who Christ created us to be and who we are in him.

It’s this people coming together unified by Christ. And we develop new rhythms together, a rhythm directed by him and led by him, and we discover as we journey with Christ what those rhythms look like and how those rhythms are expressed within the body. It becomes a beautiful thing—a little bit of chaos and a little bit of beauty and a lot of grace.

[00:02:06] Cara: Yeah, absolutely. I love how you’ve described that. It is a beautiful thing, chaos and beauty and grace and all. This year on GC Podcast, we have explored a lot of different angles on rhythms that are part of healthy church. You mentioned that as part of culture too. So how do our rhythms contribute to creating culture and in the maybe reverse order? How does culture contribute to the rhythms we choose to create?

[00:02:41] Julie: Yeah. Our rhythms within the body of Christ really are part of our discipleship path. It’s learning that new rhythm of who Christ is and who we are in him as a body. And that’s a timely thing.

It takes time and patience and a lot of grace for one another. But it is part of our discipleship process with the Lord. And so that part of becoming and having a consistent rhythm, that’s totally led according to the Lord’s timing. We have a little bit to do with that as far as the consistency and participation.

But really that’s led by the Lord. And what’s interesting about our rhythms and culture is that culture can absolutely challenge the rhythms of a church. And cause us to rethink some of those rhythms and possibly respond differently as culture transforms around us.

But our rhythms are really not controlled by society, but instead led, maintained by the leading of the Holy Spirit. And even though the culture can make us rethink those and make us consider how we participate in those rhythms led by the Holy Spirit, those rhythms are the Holy Spirit’s leading. The culture doesn’t determine how the church lives that out.

And can’t and shouldn’t determine how the church lives that out.

[00:04:26] Cara: Yeah. And I love that you’ve highlighted that those rhythms, in the context of church community and the formation of the culture of church community, those rhythms are formed and led by the Spirit, by who God is.

Because we were stepping in time with his rhythms, with his ways. And so really, we’re being shaped and formed into the culture of his kingdom and who he is versus—and I think that comes in line with what you’re saying—versus all the various different pulls and pushes or different ways of thinking. Culture can come in a thousand different forms, but the rhythms that we’re trying to sync up to are the rhythms of God’s culture that he has for all of his people.

That’s beautifully said, Julie. Like I said, or I just mentioned, culture can come in a lot of different forms, and we’re on this journey that you’ve mentioned of seeking it, syncing up with those rhythms that are led by the Spirit and not necessarily whatever we want to do.

And so, I say this quote unquote church culture—things like church “in speak” or those things that might make us feel like, oh we’re an “in” crowd, or you have to belong to this church club. Sometimes that form of church culture can be a barrier to actually living missionally because it makes this dynamic of an insider / outsider.

But in contrast to that kind of kingdom culture when we’re embracing that everyone belongs. What are some of those ways that as a local congregation, can we check in with ourselves and assess what kind of culture are we cultivating here in our local church community?

[00:06:41] Julie: It it’s interesting this question made me think about a book that I recently read called Positively Irritating by John Ritner, and I think a lot of GCI members are familiar with him. And he’s quoted saying, “We must stop merely inviting the world to church and instead be the church for the world.”

And I think that a lot of culture with church has been trying to get others to come into a space. And when we have the intentionality of discovering who God is, and discovering who we are, as we have our being in him, we start paying attention to some of the things, some of the rhythms that Christ himself had. And we see Christ going. We see Christ going into homes, sitting with not-yet believers.

And when we see that rhythm, and we discover that we have our being in Christ, we can see ourselves a little different than just a place that we invite others to, but becoming a people that go into a world and sit with others where they’re at. And really that church culture kind of fades away when you think about that. We stop being that in club and that changes as we go out and are willing to sit with others. And where we are willing to be the church every day into a space that’s not our own and sit with Christ.

I think that’s really where that church culture, that “church speak,” changes, when we really discover identity in who Jesus is. And that challenges a lot of what church has been and can be.

That place of “come to us, come to our service, come witness.” Jesus actually asked us to witness, asked us to go, and you don’t become this exclusive club if you’re going out into the community and sitting with others.

You become a place that’s very inviting into relationship and inviting into a relationship with Christ. As they sit with us, the kingdom is shared with others. It’s not just a “come to this place and experience the kingdom.” It’s we go and share the kingdom.

So, we have both cultures, I would say, here in Cincinnati. We’re learning. We have a long—and I think most churches may have a long history of just inviting in and not 100 percent understanding the sent-ness that we have as a church, as a body of Christ.

And so, we’re learning that rhythm. I’m not sitting here as an authority on that at all. I’m in that process of learning that rhythm as God is so gracious. and patient and willing to consistently invite and empower us to go sit with neighbor, to sit with strangers, to sit with community, and to be the church. This is a work in progress. And I thank God that he is willing to work and thank God that he is willing to be so gracious with us as a body of Christ, to give us opportunity.

And as we take that opportunity, as we participate in that, what a blessing it is for us!

[00:10:40] Cara: Absolutely. Oh, amen. And a couple of things that you said really jumped out at me. First, you mentioned noticing the rhythms of Jesus. And so again, coming back to this reality of whose rhythms are we being drawn into and whose rhythms are we being captivated by and choosing really to be formed by and to be shaped by?

And then you mentioned, as a people, that you’re being shaped into that sent people. That comes back to even that first question I asked you about culture, you said, you think of people, right? And we don’t have culture without people.

I really love that you mentioned that because it’s not just about us all on our own, right? But it’s about what is God doing with us together as his people, as he shapes all of us together through these rhythms. So, I really loved how you mentioned that, that dynamic of culture, that as we see and are swept up in those rhythms of Jesus, that we as a collective people are changed and are shaped.

And I think that really even connects to that previous question: how do rhythms contribute to creating culture and how does culture contribute to the rhythms we choose to create? Even that example that you gave of it’s a journey and it’s a process, I feel like speaks to that because when you choose to say, yes, Jesus, show us these new rhythms and it’s a process, then as a people, you’re transformed by him. And then your culture shifts and is different. And so, your desires for his rhythms change. And so, you’re more eager to choose his rhythms.

And it’d be like, “oh, we don’t want this inclusive, exclusive; I’m the insider; you’re the outsider; you come to me” kind of thing. And so, it has this beautiful, transformative, cyclical thing that God’s doing that I hear you describe, even just in Cincinnati, in the church community there.

That’s an incredible thing that God is up to, transforming you all and bringing you deeper into his rhythm. So, thank you for sharing that.

[00:13:11] Julie: Yes. And I think we need to be unafraid to do those temperature checks of our congregations, as a people. And say, what is our rhythm right now? What does somebody who isn’t a part of this, what would they say? What do they see?

And I think being willing to ask some of those questions and willing to hear the answer. All right, you don’t attend our church, what do you see? What do you see? You’re not a member of our church, what do you see? And be willing to ask the neighbor, what is your conclusion on who we are as a people?

And although that’s not going to give you a 100 percent accuracy of all things, that’s going to give you a perspective. But I want to know what my neighbor who is not-yet a believer of Christ thinks of the body of Christ that is next door.

I want to know, and Lord, help me to be humble to receive that truth. And it might be hard, and I pray that is a changing rhythm, that we will—as we grow in that mission of joining God—that perspective will change.

And I think that probably depending on who you ask, you might get a little bit different question, but it gives you a gauge to say, what is the message? What is the reality of us being the church in this community? What does that look like to the people that aren’t of the body of Christ?

Because we could always look at it and we have rose colored glasses. Oh, we’re doing pretty good. We’re doing this. Check. We’re doing this. Check. And we can get in that rhythm of I’ve got an outreach going. Check. I’ve got discipleship. Check. I’m doing a good worship service. Check.

And you can make it this checklist and that’s really not what Christ has invited us into, he’s invited us to join him in mission. And that’s relational. That’s not a checklist. And it’s a rhythm set by him. And it’s the church leaning into that and accepting God, you are God. This is your church. You love these people. Give us the heart that you have for these people.

Help us to participate in that and that’s not easy. But it is such a beautiful place to be when we allow that to be who we are as the church. So, I think it takes some hard conversations, but it’s not to tear us down, but to build us up and to make us aware sometimes of what reflection we really are giving as the body of Christ.

[00:16:07] Cara: Julie, that’s such a good word. That is a very practical way that we can, as a community, do that temperature check. How are we growing and being shaped in our rhythms and in our culture? Because I even think culture is something that’s experienced, right? And when you’re knee-deep in your own culture, sometimes there are things that you become so accustomed to that you don’t even necessarily have the awareness to name it.

And so, to ask somebody else, what do you experience when you step into our community, into our church, into our group of people? What is that experience like? And to hear that from your neighbors—is what they described, does it sound like they experience a kingdom culture? What aspects sound like that? What don’t?

I love to travel. And that’s one of the things I love is experiencing different cultures and what aspects of it are—I find God in pieces of all different cultures. You just experience it in a way, when you cross into a culture that’s not your own, that sometimes is hard to explain. Or maybe somebody wouldn’t even be able to describe their own culture because they’ve just lived it and been in it for so long.

Or somebody is able to point out about my culture—I’m from Boston. So sometimes people are like, hey, and I’m like, oh, I didn’t even know that. I didn’t know we did stuff like that. Or we said that like that or whatever. Because it’s something that, that you just experience.

So, to get that perspective, I think that’s a really meaningful thing. And like you said, it’s not to tear us down, but to build us up. Because yet at the end of the day, what do we have to lose?

Jesus is still Lord. And all that might happen is we are able to see something where we can invite him to shape us more deeply into who he is and who he’s called us to be as his church. Yes. Oh, that’s so good, Julie.

[00:18:18] Julie: And I think that just realizing as a body of Christ, the totality of our following Jesus is not summed up on a Sunday service. That’s not the totality of our Christianity, of our faith in Christ. It is not this one day a week that we go to, and we come together and then we go out and nothing matters.

It’s that’s the church is called to be the church, right? And that the church exists day in and day out as we go. And we need to be aware of that reality of who we are in Christ and that can’t just sit inside a church building on Sunday. We want to gather; we want to have worship. We want to have fellowship; we want to celebrate what God is doing, praise his name, worship our Lord. But we also want to be the church every day as we go.

And just recognizing that reality and allowing our hearts to shift from an attender to a participant, and we have a lot of church attendees. We have fewer church participants, but my hope and my desire is that the work the Lord has started here in the congregations, that he’s going to complete that. I have a pretty good resource that tells me he’s going to complete that.

I’m just basing this on that God is working and that he will continue the work he has started, and he is patient and kind and graceful. And he knows where we’re at, and he knows the steps that we struggle to take, and he is willing to walk that journey with us to take those steps.

And as the church, that we would be in a mindset of, this is your church, Lord. I am the church; I am as I go, Lord. Would you, Lord, work through me? Would you show me? Would you guide my steps? Would you give me the words? Would you help me to be the church? He is faithful in that request, even when we don’t know what that looks like, even when we’re afraid to say anything, even when we are afraid to be on that journey with him.

We have to remember it is our faithful God that we are on the journey with, the one who is faithful in his very being, even when we are faithless. And so, I think it’s that mindset of, I’m not an attender of this church. I am the church and I have been sent—just that shift. And that takes time.

Each of us have probably been in that place of, I attend this church. But to shift into that being in Christ and being the church, that’s not easy. But I am convinced that we do not go alone in that, and I am convinced that it is worthwhile.

[00:21:35] Cara: Yes. Oh, that’s just so beautiful, because that gets beyond even what you said earlier just the checklists, right? But it gets into: who are we really in Christ? What is he really drawing us into? Who has he called the church to be?

I love that. And that’s the thing I think when we’re shaped, allow ourselves to be shaped by his rhythms. And it’s more than just, like you said, we show up to church on Sundays and that’s it, but when we’re drawn into his rhythms and his culture. When I think about, as you were saying, when we think about “I am the church instead of just, I go to church.”

The silly parallel that came to mind is I’m not Bostonian just when I’m in Boston, right? Like I’m sitting here in Charlotte and I’m still from Boston because that’s my culture. That’s who I am. That’s what raised me, right? And so, what if we thought the same way about our identity in Christ, about who we are as a church?

It’s not that we go to church, but we are the church. And that’s true wherever we go, every day of the week, like you said, because it’s not just that we go to church or this checklist, but we are the church. That’s our culture. That’s who made us, who raised us. That’s who we are as people. I think that’s a beautiful thing.

And like you said it’s a faithful God. He’s a faithful God who’s bringing us on that journey. So that’s incredible.

[00:23:13] Julie: You think about cultures, and I think that you have been able to step into and experience various cultures. I think one of the coolest things of going into a different culture is the joy of the people to share that culture with you.

I have sat with so many different friends who are from Nigeria or Israel or England and whatnot and they’re so excited to share with me their favorite dishes. Hey, this is something that I grew up with and I, Julie, want you to try this.

And I love to adventure with food. So, to me, that’s a grand adventure to sit at a table and to share the cultural food of a friend. And you think of the excitement that we approach sharing culture with others as the church, believe it or not, with that excitement and more we can share the kingdom of God.

We can sit and share, excited for others to experience and taste and know.

[00:24:21] Cara: I don’t even have anything to say to that. That’s beautiful.

[00:24:27] Julie: I have a lot of food analogy in my way of thinking. I like food a lot, to me that’s like a happy place, yeah, I love it. I love it. The Bible does say, taste and see that the Lord is good.

[00:24:41] Cara: So, I see nothing wrong with that.

And we’re talking about this growth and this process that God is taking us on too, as we shift and come into his rhythms and to embrace his church culture versus maybe our versions of church culture that can be exclusive or whatever else we might make of it.

But I’m wondering, what does it practically look like to make decisions that shift towards this vision culture, this kingdom culture?

[00:25:18] Julie: I think first and foremost we have to realize that because we have our identity in Christ that’s where everything else flows. And this is not something that we do apart from God, and this is not something that we become apart from God.

It is all centered in him. There’s a beautiful book that I am actually journeying through [with] the leadership here in Cincinnati. I’m journeying with them through this book. And it has been a blessing to me. It just allowed me to sit in that place of just deep gratitude and a place of just embracing the sent-ness that God has given me as his child and as part of the church.

And the book is Overflow, and it’s written by Michael Reeves. And he says something in there that’s stuck with me, as the body of Christ, like a place where we start. And this is what he says, “Mission for us is about entering into the gift of life before we have anything to give away.”

When as the body of Christ, we think of joining that mission that Christ has for us, the first part is entering into that gift of life in Christ. That’s the first part. That first part of, you are my God, and I am your child, and my life is in you.

And that’s not a lot of us doing. That’s a lot of us sitting and receiving what the Lord has given. And it’s from that place that everything else flows. And so, it’s really important for the church and the body of Christ to receive from the Lord who they are, to receive the gift that he has given, to allow God to love them, allow God to speak truth, allow God to speak their identity.

And we start from there. And I’m going to quote Overflow one more time from Michael Reeves. He says, “Mission is the overflow of love from the enjoyment of divine fellowship.”

And so, from that place of entering into life with Christ, everything else flows from that. And so that’s where we enter into a vision culture set by the lead of the Holy Spirit, a place where we identify fully in who Jesus is, knowing that we go forth by his strength alone, by his wisdom, led by his will.

And so, we take all of this burden and things that we can put on ourselves—the insecurity of having to perform or having to say the perfect thing—and we step into a place of him being our source and flowing from that. And that changes it all. It changes everything.

It takes it off of us, and we participate in the joy of relationship with God. And mission becomes us telling others about this one whom we love and sharing that. But we can’t enter into this vision culture without first receiving from Christ.

[00:28:45] Cara: Amen. I think that’s foundational. And listeners, I think that’s not to be missed, but that’s where we start because again, otherwise we’re making and nurturing culture after our own image.

And we’re going to do a little bit of that anyways, right? We’re not perfect. We’re still on the side of eternity, but as the church our purpose is to be grown and formed and shaped after God’s image and to bring that on mission into the world. And so, I think that’s really, Julie, such a powerful word, but that’s where we start. It has to be where we start.

[00:29:33] Julie: And if we jump into mission without that, then we end up with a bunch of people who are exhausted and are spinning the wheels kind of thing.

And you also struggle for participation because it’s not out of relationship with Christ that the mission goes forth. It comes out of our own will and our own strength. And believe it or not, we just don’t have that strength. We don’t have that strength to continue mission to a world. We just don’t have it.

And we weren’t meant to have it apart from God. We weren’t meant to do this journey apart from God. And so, when we go and we try to do that, it doesn’t usually work out very well. And you end up with a lot of burned out participants and it doesn’t flow from our being in Christ. And it’s so important for us as churches to recognize that initial foundation has to be there before we jump into all of this.

And that’s why it can’t be a checklist. It has to be led by the Holy Spirit. Our churches naturally will participate in mission as they receive from Christ their identity and as they discover who our God is, and they join what he is doing. It just takes so much pressure off of the individual too, and it takes the pressure off the church as a whole.

We haven’t been asked to do anything that Jesus isn’t leading, and we haven’t been asked to do anything that he isn’t already giving the strength for.

[00:31:20] Cara: That’s really good. And I’m wondering on that foundation, something that just came to mind that I’m wondering about is one of the things that I think is so beautiful about who our God is. He never runs out of—oh, what’s the word that I’m looking for? He’s just so creative, and expresses who he is in so many different ways and in diversity and in just so many different flavors, right? Even to come back to that food example, there’s just so many ways that who he is can be expressed because he’s just so full and so rich and never ending.

And so, it makes me think about, on that foundation, there are a lot of ways that different flavors or different nuances that a local church’s culture can take shape. And I like to talk about that when we talk about contextualizing local churches. Sometimes I really like to say, what’s the flavor or the personality of the local church on that foundation that you just described.

And then I think about too, when we talk about contextualization, you mentioned earlier, the larger culture doesn’t necessarily dictate what rhythms the church is formed by, but it can be something that we consider, as we think about our rhythms and do that.

And I think that’s part of contextualization, right? Our God is an incarnational God. He calls us into incarnational ministry, a sent ministry. And so, I’m just wondering, what does that look like? Or can it look like as a church discerns, by the leading of the Spirit, its own flavor and contextualizes its unique personality and grows its unique culture in its specific context that God has brought it to?

[00:33:30] Julie: I think it begins with humility and recognizing that God has sprinkled our churches with diversity for a reason and each church does not exist as a carbon copy of the other. I have these two churches in Cincinnati, and they’re very different from one another.

They’ve been sprinkled differently with the diversity that God has placed within our body and also within the community. And we don’t need to approach that diversity as something to eliminate, but something to embrace and something that we rejoice at the diversity that God has given us in culture and in different races and the rhythm of the community that we’re in.

You recognize sometimes people do things differently and that’s where the humility comes of being willing to consider the giftedness that God has brought, the diversity that God has brought. And ask the Lord, how do you see this being expressed? How does this sprinkle our ministry with that goodness? How are you testifying through this circumstance, through this difference that we have here? And just being willing to have that conversation and allow the cultural beauty of your members and of your community to be expressed in the ways that we participate with Christ.

I think sometimes we try to make little carbon copies of each church, and it’s okay this is what church looks like. I think it’s bigger than that because God has created such diversity. It’s not something that we avoid, or it’s not something that we try to change, but it’s with our expression is the body of Christ that diversity is a blessing. That diversity is something that will add season to our community.

And so, if we look at each member as a seasoning that comes together to make that full taste of the kingdom. And it really begins in the thinking of who we are, trusting who God has created us to be, trusting that each member has been gifted according to the Holy Spirit, and this is a part of who we are as a church to the community around us, embracing that and allowing God to lead that expression.

So, I’m not sure if I’ve answered the question quite well, but I think it’s in embracing of this as a gifting from God. And it does not affect the unity that Christ brings. It actually seasons.

[00:36:44] Cara: Yeah, I really like that image of each person is a seasoning of the taste of the kingdom. Because I think that’s an important thing for us to think about when we’re looking at what are some of the healthy rhythms that we can be embracing by the leading of the Spirit that help us to develop a healthy culture as a local congregation, that doesn’t necessarily lead us to, like you said, those carbon copies or a monoculture across the board. But healthy rhythms and healthy culture can look completely diverse while still being built on that foundation of who Christ is and who we are in him because he’s already shown us he’s such a creative God that has created that diversity

And I loved you use that word with. That’s so good. That’s so good.

As we’re coming up on the end of our time together, Julie, what final words of encouragement would you want to leave with our listeners?

[00:37:45] Julie: I would encourage each person in each congregation to trust what God is doing and to know that he is doing something. Our God is not absent in the world. He is actively working, and he is actively inviting us as the church to join that. You know sometimes, we are uncomfortable with that lead. If we would embrace, as a body of Christ, speaking of Jesus in the way that we care for our neighbors and the way that we invite people into our homes and the way that we walk through the neighborhoods and interact. If we would practice speaking of Jesus, and I’m not—sometimes it does look like it verbally sharing the gospel—but so many times it’s in the actions and the way that we approach others and the way that we are willing to listen to hard things, that we are willing to stand unafraid in the brokenness of the world around us.

We have a foundation that we can trust. And so, I just would encourage us to be unafraid. I was recently going through Acts with my teenagers, and we’ve been reading this together. And we were reading about the disciples going and the Sanhedrin council like holding them for a while then letting them go. And they made some threats of, hey, if you keep talking about Jesus, we’re going to come take care of this.

And they go back to the other believers, and they pray. And their prayer is so significant to me! I think as a church, if we just remember this prayer they prayed—and I’m paraphrasing, I’m not reading this verbatim—they didn’t pray that the threat would go away or that God would take away the trial or that God would hold their enemies back or anything of that sort.

They asked the Lord, hey, consider what’s going on with us in this circumstance. And they asked him to give them boldness to continue to witness. And so that would be my prayer for us as the church when we face things that are hard and things that are uncomfortable and things that are sometimes scary to us.

And yes, the world, stuff that’s going on, it can feel very scary. But that we would stand, and we would continue to pray that, Lord, you see what’s going on. Give us, the church, the boldness to witness. Help us, Lord, because we are afraid at times. We are scared to participate. We do allow our fear to stop us so often, but Lord, give us the boldness to speak Jesus to this world and to share what you have given us.

[00:40:44] Cara: Amen. Thank you so much, Julie, for those final words and for this very full and rich conversation. I know that our listeners will get a lot out of it.

But before we finally close this episode, as is our tradition, I do have a couple of fun, random questions for you. And whatever first comes to mind is the right answer.

Okay. Are you ready?

[00:41:12] Julie: Ready or not, here we come, let’s go.

[00:41:15] Cara: That’s right. If you had to be a dinosaur, what kind of dinosaur would you be?

[00:41:21] Julie: How many dinosaurs do I know? You know what? I am fascinated by sharks in like a very real fear, but like a huge respect. So, if this existed and I think there’s evidence it did, the Megalodon.

Here we go. Yeah.

[00:41:38] Cara: Okay. Yes. Very good. Very good. Now I’ll have to go Google what that looks like.

[00:41:45] Julie: A really big shark.

[00:41:47] Cara: Okay. That is very scary. All right. When you’re out and about karaoke and what’s your go to karaoke song?

[00:41:57] Julie: Oh! Brown Eyed Girl.

[00:41:58] Cara: Oh! That’s a good one.

[00:42:01] Julie: It’s the only one I know the words to, and I don’t have a voice that can sing and so that’s not one of the giftings God has given me, but I can let loose and enjoy that song. Yeah.

[00:42:16] Cara: I love that. Grew up on that song. If you had a late night talk show, who would your first guest be?

[00:42:24] Julie: I think I would bring Peter in. I relate with Peter. He is so eager to participate with the Lord, and completely, at times, unaware of all the ways he’s going the wrong way. And I’m like that. I’m like, I want to participate with you, and yet, I don’t know how. And it’s like I just want to, I want to go, and I want to scream from the mountaintops and yet I misstep so often. And I just think that would be a fun conversation because he experienced those things and yet he experienced the grace and restoration of Christ.

And yeah, I just, I think he didn’t give up. He didn’t stop even though being rebuked by Jesus would be really tough to like that would be hard to receive. He continued and I just, I respect that, and I think he would be fun to talk to about that.

[00:43:22] Cara: I agree. I agree. All right. What is the funniest thing that has happened to you this week?

[00:43:31] Julie: I don’t know if you would find this funny, but I laughed so that I didn’t cry. I was at home, and I was getting my sugar down from above my stove and somehow—I live in a house of six and I’ve got teenagers and whatnot and I’m not throwing any blame anywhere, but someone didn’t put the lid on the sugar.

So, when I grabbed it, it slipped, it fell and I had about a pound of sugar in my kitchen and I just started laughing because I’m like, I’m going to cry if I don’t laugh.

[00:44:00] Cara: Yes.

[00:44:05] Julie: And thank God for the vacuum cleaner because that helped the clean up a lot better. So yeah. I laughed and was like, dang it. All right, here we go. We got to roll with these things sometimes.

[00:44:16] Cara: You chose to make it funny. I like that. Yeah.

[00:44:19] Julie: Yes.

[00:44:24] Cara: All right. And last question. Since we learned that you’re a bit of a foodie, what is a food that you really want to try that you haven’t had the chance to yet?

[00:44:35] Julie: I have heard a lot of stories of Scottish food and some people have said it just doesn’t have a lot of flavor and things like that.

And I’m thinking I want to go, and I would love to just sit and [say] throw your best dish at me kind of thing. I have never tried any Scottish food. So, I’d like to. I think Scottish people are amazing, funny. I love their accent and I just want to. That’s a culture I don’t know very much about, and I would love to just experience it. I think that begins with some food sometimes.

[00:45:10] Cara: Oh yeah. Always got to start with the food.

Julie, thank you so much for joining us today. It was a wonderful conversation, and I know our listeners are going to be very blessed. I would love to ask you to end our episode today with praying for our churches, pastors, GCI.

[00:45:33] Julie: Absolutely.

Almighty and gracious Father, we thank you, Lord, that as we gather now, Lord, you are with us. May we know that in the depths of our souls. Lord, we thank you that in this life even when we can struggle and stumble, Lord, you are so faithful.

Help us to remember that as we, as the body of Christ, seek to participate with you. We seek to be the church, and Lord, we don’t always know what that even means. We can have this box and this idea, but Lord, it is your desire, your will, your vision that we seek.

I pray, Lord, that you will help us to lay aside all of our “what that looks like” moments, and to embrace, Lord, what you are leading each and every one of us as a body of Christ.

Help us, Lord, to be courageous, as the early church prayed. Lord, I pray the same for us. I pray, Lord, that we will be courageous and that we will be bold and that we will not be deterred by the things that are scary and hard in this world. But, Lord, that we will have the boldness to continue to share and testify and speak of you.

Lord, you have been so patient and kind, your grace is abundant, help us to know that grace in each and every moment, help us to have that grace for one another, and help us, Lord, to function and to go forth out of our relationship with you, that we will know our strength, we will know our very being is in you, Christ, and so we just thank you, Lord, and just abundantly thankful and grateful, Lord, for You being our God and you calling us into a mission, Lord, that you provide the strength and the resources necessary for.

Dad what a wonderful place it is to be your child and to be loved by you. Help us, Lord, to participate in every way that you give us and every invitation. I pray, Lord, that we all have the courage and boldness to say yes. Help us to have the grace as our churches learn and grow and as our rhythms change.

And as we learn new rhythms, help us to not hold onto things of the past that may be holding us down from stepping into this place with you. Help us to release and to boldly and humbly. Come, Lord. Thank you, God, that you invite us day in and day out. And in Revelation, where it says at the very end that the Spirit says, Come, and the bride says, Come.

Lord, we are the bride. Help us to say, Come. Help us to testify faithfully every day as the church. Lord, thank you. Your grace is abundant. And it is in Jesus name that we pray. Amen.

[00:48:24] Cara: Until next time, folks, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the GC Podcast. We hope you have found value in it to become a healthier leader. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic, or if there is someone who you think we should interview, email us at info@gci.org. Remember, Healthy Churches start with healthy leaders; invest in yourself and your leaders.

The post Culture Creation w/ Julie Frantz first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Rhythms of Healthy Leadership w/ Cara Garrity

Hello friends and welcome to the latest episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

Michelle: I’m your guest host, Michelle Fleming, and today I’m blessed to interview Cara Garrity. Cara is a single mom to two cats and two dogs.

She’s almost always down for a concert, musical, or to check out a new restaurant, but you might all know her best as the GCI Development Coordinator and the usual host of this podcast. We’re switching roles today so we can draw from Cara’s experience as we discuss rhythms of healthy leadership.

Cara, welcome to your own podcast, and thanks for being a guest.

Cara: Absolutely. Thank you for being also a guest. Fun to be on the other side of the mic today.

[00:00:52] Michelle: Yeah, it’s an honor to sit in your chair and I’m excited to hear about your experiences with Rhythms of Healthy Leadership. As we kick it off, what does healthy leadership mean to you?

[00:01:02] Cara: This is such a rich question to me. There’s a lot; we don’t have all the time to dive into all the different aspects, but there are a couple of pieces that I think are important to draw out.

I think the first thing, when we think about healthy leadership and defining what that means is to first name that health, and our idea of what healthy leadership is, has to be defined in Jesus. There’s so many ways that we could define health, but as Christian leaders, we have to define it in who Jesus is and who he has called and created humanity to be. And so, I think about that in terms of all of humanity, but then also each of us personally and what that looks like for us, who we are as me, Cara, you, Michelle, each one of us within the larger humanity and story of humanity.

And so, when I think about healthy leadership, really the foundation to me is discipleship. How are we growing into the people that God has created us to be? Because he’s really the one that knows what health looks like for all of humanity.

To me, that’s the foundation. And the other piece that I think about that sometimes is easy for us to miss, I think, is that that means that healthy leadership is also holistic. Because God saw fit to make us holistic beings, right? And I think often when we think of healthy leadership in the church, we can be tempted to just think about the spiritual aspects or how well do we know our theology or our biblical knowledge.

And those are all very important things. And we are whole beings and that’s not our design, that’s God’s design. And so, when we think about health, there’s so many aspects that come into what it means to be a whole human. So, I think about things like physical health, mental health, relational health, then also our spiritual health. What does that look like? Social health. And so, I think that’s a piece that when we’re looking at what health looks like in terms of our intended creation in God and our redeemed calling in Christ. I think that it’s very holistic.

With that, another piece that I think is really cool to think about is that happens in community. Health happens in community because, we’re made in the image of God and Father, Son, and Spirit. Relationship. Relationship.

[00:03:56] Michelle: Yeah, that’s really rich. And I think it can be really simple to say that Jesus is our foundation. But I think it is really beautiful the way that you unpack that in bringing in the holistic aspect as well. Because I think in that, we’re acknowledging who he is, and we’re acknowledging who we are in him. We’re acknowledging our capacity.

And I think that can be—if we’re going to look for a non-example—some of the unhealthy leadership we see is when we take on being the savior. We take on being the one to bring healing. We take on being the one who knows and has the power.

And that’s not what we see in Jesus, in who he is, and how he lived out his ministry. And that’s not how he’s calling us to minister. I think all of the aspects that you brought out really unpacked it in a simple and full way.

Also, the community aspect was something I was thinking about when you were talking about it too, because healthy leadership can’t happen in isolation either. I really love how you just outline that so succinctly, but so richly. Thank you for starting us out with that focus.

[00:05:07] Cara: Absolutely. And I love how you said the non-example too, is when we step out of that design that God has. Oh, we do want to be what God didn’t intend for us to be as leaders in his church. And we’re often easily tempted to do that.

[00:05:52] Michelle: I even think about even just in my own experiences, the times that I’m refined more to be like Christ are the times when I am leading community, where I’m open and receptive to a loving word of truth received from others, when I’m open and receptive to see how someone else might be imaging Jesus in a way and a gifting that I’m not able to, but in welcoming that in, makes our team better.

[00:05:55] Cara: And that brings up for me another piece of healthy leadership that I think practically is important when we think about it in the community context and on the personal level. Are we leading in response to our own gifting and calling?

Because I think that’s a healthier expression when we’re able to do that. I think of the image of the body of Christ, right? Let a hand be a hand, right? That’s healthier than a hand trying to be a nose because what does a hand know about smelling stuff? That’s funky. It’s not good for the hand or the whole body for that to happen.

And so, I think that’s better for the whole community. I think it’s more in alignment with again the personal kind of way that God is calling and shaping us within that larger, like how has God redeemed all of humanity?

And it’s more healthy for the actual person. I mean we talk about, again another non-example, we find that burnout when we’re trying to be who we’re not, both on the personal level and on that larger human level. Like you said, we’re not the saviors, and we’re also not a nose if we’re actually gifted to be a hand, right?

And so, stepping outside of who we are is one of the ways that we find that unhealth. And so, I think that really leading in alignment with gifting and calling is something that can be a healthy practice, but to do those things in the proper order, right? Oz Guinness is somebody that has done a lot of writing on calling, and I want to read something that he wrote in his one of his books on calling and he says: “Calling is the truth that God calls us to himself so decisively that everything we are, everything we do, and everything we have is invested with a special devotion, dynamism, and direction lived out as a response to his summons and service.”

And then he goes on to say, we have the primary calling, which is this discipleship, and then the secondary calling, which is the response of how we live in our giftings and talents and how we function as the hand or the nose or whatever. But the primary, most important thing is we’re a disciple of Christ.

And so that to me is the kind of bird’s eye view of healthy leadership.

[00:08:36] Michelle: Yeah, and I love that image of just giving our whole selves because it brings out that healing, that wholeness that we’re talking about in the beginning of your response to this question that comes when we’re able to present our whole selves to Jesus and to see ourselves rightly before him.

Yes, that’s good. From your perspective as a development coordinator, what are some ways we can begin to develop healthy rhythms in our leadership? Can you share some examples, both in your personal life and also in this corporate dynamic that we’re talking about as the church?

[00:09:09] Cara: Yeah. On a really practical level, I think the first is just to begin. Because there’s no—you just got to start doing it and you test and see what’s helpful or not, what’s formative or not. And you discern in that process and in that journey and in community.

I like to think of rhythms like waves. Each one is not exactly the same. And so, if you’re waiting for the exact right formula to start, you’re never going to start. And in my view, the exact right formula is not really what a rhythm is that we’re looking for anyways. For me, what that has looked like over time has been practicing different rhythms of spiritual formation. Doing things like weekly Sabbath day of rest has been something that’s been really formational for me. Doing practices of making sure that I’m spending time in nature because that’s where I really connect well with God.

Making sure I get back into my hobby of reading because that’s where I’m able to exercise more of that imagination kind of creative aspects that I really like to have fun with and to play with. Even to play around with different rhythms of what ways of moving my body feel like healing and feel like celebrating how I exist in this world as a physical being. Ways of being in relationships with people.

So those are the ways that I’ve been thinking about and toying with. What those rhythms look like? And then not just doing them one off and sporadically, which is hard for me because I’m very spontaneous, do whatever. But then thinking about, as I try different practices and see what connects, being like what are things that I want to do on a daily basis, a weekly basis, monthly, quarterly, so that it really does become a rhythm, like things that return and then return again, so that it’s actually something that’s formational.

That’s what it’s looked like for me. In terms of what it could look like corporately or some other starting places that it could look like. Thinking about the worship calendar, that’s a whole rhythm. And so, we’re thinking corporately as a local congregation, how can we use the worship calendar intentionally as a way to develop some of these spiritual formation rhythms or rhythms of telling the story of who Jesus is and who we are because of him and growing in health as disciples that way.

How do we—maybe even in connection with the worship calendar or the annual calendar, whatever that looks like—develop rhythms of continued learning based on the competencies that our leaders need based on new leaders that are being developed. Are we intentionally engaging in a rhythm of developing and bringing up new leaders?

I think about the 4 E’s: engage, equip, empower, and encourage. Are we doing that in a way where we’re like, oh, we’re actually engaging people where they’re gifting is. And thinking about are we making a rhythm where we’re moving more towards health in that instead of again the sporadic, oh, we’ll do this whenever it feels like an emergency, and we need a new leader. But are we actually on an annual basis, on a quarterly basis, being very intentional about this.

Oh, man, I don’t know if I’m going to get myself in trouble on this, but I think too, when we think about—you mentioned earlier, not going beyond our limits as humans or not our savior. Corporately, are we creating spaces where we allow ourselves to rest?

If we’re professionally in ministry leadership, are we taking our vacations? Do we consider Sabbath rests on whatever kind of rhythm is appropriate and trying that out. For our volunteers, do we think about commitments that start maybe in a one-year term, and go from there so that we can have a rhythm of assessing what is your capacity to serve in this role.

Are you discerning right now that this is a good season? Is this still a good expression of your giftings right now? And then serving in teams, I think is a great expression or way that we can develop those rhythms because again, we get that community kind of [inaudible] where we’re moving towards more of that social relational health as we lead. I think that’s an excellent way to do that.

And then as a local congregation too, are we creating spaces to explore together and to teach one another about what this could look like, go on this journey together? Are we sharing our formational experiences? Are we sharing our journeys of mental and physical, social, relational health?

What do our discipleship spaces look like? What do our spaces look like for specifically—because we’re talking about healthy leadership rhythms—what are the spaces look like for our leaders to get together and to support one another? Our statistics in the U. S. church, particularly, are terrible for burnout of leaders because leaders don’t have that support network that I think God intended us to have.

And so, I think that’s another practical rhythm to consider. Who cares for the leaders? How do we care for one another as leaders in a rhythmic way?

[00:15:43] Michelle: Yeah. How are we really living in an integrated community? Yeah. You’ve given us a lot to think about, a lot of practical examples.

[00:15:50] Cara: Start with one.

[00:15:56] Michelle: Start with one. But I think it ties really well to your response to what we’ve been talking about in the first question. All of your personal rhythms were holistic and also about being attuned to Jesus first. Because I think some of the other kind of aspects that we’re seeing that can be detrimental to leaders, are unhealthy rhythms.

I think they come from taking it on ourselves, coming back to that. And so not just only understanding how God wired you and how to care for yourself holistically and how to intentionally connect with them, but how to build that in as touch points throughout your day. I thought that was a really rich, not that it’s a linear process, but I think it’s an important foundation.

Yeah. And then to build on that with the theological rhythms of who we are in Christ and who he is, but then also some of our corporate rhythms that are really about community building and discipleship. I think that you gave us a lot of practical examples to build onto the framework that you already gave us.

And I can tell this is something you’ve been doing for a while. What is something you wish you knew early on when you were developing your healthy rhythms of leadership? What’s something that you can help us beginners who maybe aren’t as far along on the road?

[00:17:16] Cara: This is actually less of a—I’d say was more of like a framework thing primarily, that I wish I knew earlier on as I was learning about developing rhythms of healthy leadership more so than a practical thing.

And I think that, that thing which is really foundational, that I wish that I knew earlier, is that this—not idea, but this journey, this growth, this embodiment of healthy leadership, it’s not just about the image of healthy leadership, but the reality and the messy reality of where we are as people in and as followers, in our journeys of health and discipleship really, right? And that it’s the real place of discipleship is where we grow in health, not where we wish we could be or what we think people want to see in us as leaders or what we wish we saw in ourselves, right?

Because I think when we put up that front, we rob ourselves of that opportunity to actually meet the Spirit where like he’s working right in that real place of this is where I can actually grow in health. And a lot of that is concern of maybe what we think expectations are or what people might think or even what ramifications, I guess, that might have for us as a leader.

And so, I think that’s one tangible maybe example that I could give of what that meant for me. Oh, it’s about the real and not the image. There were times early on where I think, practically speaking, I cared more about the leadership than the health.

And I had to really contend with that because there was a time I really needed to go to therapy. And I was really struggling with it, but I was like, oh man! The question for me was and the reason why I was struggling with it, was—I didn’t know at that time, or what I thought was that if I started to go to therapy, that I would have to stop being, at that time I was a GCI intern. I thought that I would have to step down from being an intern.

Because church leaders aren’t supposed to be in therapy or whatever was the impression that I had. And I think I put that off for a little bit because I was like, no, I want to be a leader and I do believe that I have this calling. And so, I have to put up this front for as long as I can so that I can be developed in leadership in this way.

But I think I robbed myself of that experience of health that God was inviting me into in that time. And finally, as he does, he wooed me. And so, this journey of healing is important, too. And I had to come to the point where I was like, hey I’m going to do this.

And I’m going to tell my pastoral supervisor. And if that does mean that I have to step down at the end of the day then that’s going to have to be what it’s going to have to be. Because you know, I had to contend with who I am as a person in Jesus is more important.

[00:20:56] Michelle: You chose discipleship over leadership.

[00:20:57] Cara: Yes! And so I think that’s what I wish I had known earlier. I think I could have saved myself—and it doesn’t sound like a lot of time, but two years of needing therapy is a long time! So, I would have saved myself that.

I think that’s one thing that I hope for you all, our listeners, is that who you are in Christ is more important than your leadership role. And that comes back to even that primary calling versus secondary calling. Who you are as a person is way more important than your job title, your ministry title, the responsibilities that you have.

And what I found out, which was a wonderful surprise, is you can be a church leader and be in therapy. I was like, ah, this is the best thing ever!

[00:21:49] Michelle: Eventually it will help you be a better church leader, a hundred percent of the time.

[00:21:50] Cara: Yes. Exactly. Yeah, that for me was really key early on.

[00:21:60] Michelle: Yeah, I just want to say thank you for your leadership and so authentically sharing that part of your story with us, because that’s the thread that I hear throughout, that example that you shared with us is that authenticity is a huge part of healthy leadership. And it’s like we were talking about before, naming ourselves before Jesus.

And I think also about the whole concept of truth and love. And I think that’s something that Jesus emphasized a lot is that they’re two sides of the same coin.

But I think in our humanity, when we try and embody that, sometimes we think in order to be loving, we have to leave out the truth. And we do that with ourselves. Being able to name the areas that we need to invite Jesus into, that Jesus, as you are sharing in your story, can lovingly shine his light into to reveal that in grace that he can remove it and heal it and make it more like him.

But I think that same principle affects our leadership with others too in that community aspect of discipleship, because none of us can be discipled as followers of Christ in isolation. We’ve heard that in every response of this question. But I think something where we all can be challenged to grow in our healthy leadership, to image Christ-like leadership, is to be willing to speak the truth in love to one another as well.

To say to one another, I don’t think this is how you want to be experienced, but this is how I’m experiencing you. Or this is my experience of us all together in this work. Is this how you’re feeling too? Instead of holding it into ourselves and then projecting blame other places.

And I think that whole concept of speaking truth and love to ourself and one another is so critical for starting out a healthy culture of leadership because it has to be a culture. It can’t just be one person.

[00:23:52] Cara: Yes. Oh, I really love that.

[00:23:58] Michelle: Yeah. Thank you for drawing it out.

All right. As we are continuing from being beginners and we’re beginning to develop our rhythms, what are some patterns or ways of thinking that get in the way of healthy leadership rhythms? And how have you addressed these things in your leadership?

[00:24:12] Cara: Yeah, I think that this is really a continuation and maybe drawing out more of the same themes that we’ve been talking about. Because I think that one of the ways of thinking that really can be a barrier is this idea of health that is like perfection, right? A perfectionism or that image that we need to maintain, or even that an idea of health is like uniform, that health looks the same for everybody and for all people in all contexts, right?

And so, I think when we have a very rigid idea of health or an idea of health that’s not grounded in who Christ is and who we are in Christ, that can be a barrier. And I think that can be really easy to have because there’s a lot of conflicting—in our context, just in this world—messages about what health is and what it can look like and all those aspects of holistic health.

Like what does relational health look like? Mental health? Spiritual health? There are so many different messages, and so I think that’s one barrier of what does health even mean. But I think especially that idea of how there’s perfection, and there’s one way to be healthy is one really key piece.

And with that, I think if we have this one perfection or this one image that we’re attaining to, then we get this mentality of performance or having to earn, right? And then we’re not coming back to that—I liked how you put—that naming ourselves as we are before Jesus. And that’s to me, it’s when we are earning and trying to perform and to do this thing, then to be like, oh, yeah, like we’re healthy enough. We’re okay. We’re good enough.

Then we miss out on Jesus meeting us or meeting Jesus (because he’s already there in those most tender spots) where we’re being most invited into that healing. And it’s just that armor that we’re wearing. I think that’s a piece that can be there.

And I think one thing that maybe reinforces that sometimes is when we have a more hierarchical idea of leadership. Because I think sometimes when we have an unhealthy idea of hierarchical leadership, oh, if I’m at the top of the pyramid, then I have to have everything right. Like that form of hierarchical leadership, because then you have to be super healthy, and you can’t ever be wrong or vulnerable.

I think that can be a barrier as well. Because then you’re not going to be working team based. It’s all about you have to have everything right. And it’s about you, not about what God is doing in your midst. You have to be the one that’s solid and knows all the answers in that unhealthy form of hierarchical leadership.

And so, health becomes something I think that is distorted in a social format like that, right? Coming back to social health and relational health, right? We’re not relating rightly with one another. Because we might think, oh, you’re better than me. You have to not have any imperfections or vulnerabilities or I’m better than you. Of course, I have to give you all the goodness that I have.

[00:28:00] Michelle: Yeah, I appreciate the way this, even in how you’re explaining it to me, ties back to your original answer to the question. That the foundation really is Jesus, because what I hear you saying is that things can get unhealthy when we try and make it a process or a linear process or a protocol that’s I do this, then I do this and then I do this and that equals perfection.

And that equals me being right. And I think healthy leadership is a relational journey, and that’s never linear. That’s never step by step, that’s never anything that I can see the end from the beginning, because Jesus is the only one who can see the end from the beginning. So, it’s a dependence on him, and it’s a reliance on relationship with him and with the people that he’s put around us.

And so, can you share with us some practical ways you’ve addressed these issues within your leadership?

[00:28:57] Cara: Yeah. I think one of the things that is like a mind shift with this is it’s about us, but it’s not about us in our leadership. Because I think part of that, when we try to make it formulaic, and we’re trying to get to that perfection or whatever is because we’re the leader, right?

And it comes back to what you said, we’re the savior. We’re the ones that have the answer. And it’s about us in the sense that God really cares for us. He is transforming us. He wants us to participate in his ministry and in his church. He calls us to lead one another in his church, to care for one another in different ways in community.

And so, it’s about us in that sense, but it’s not about us in the sense of Oh, I have to be an excellent leader. I have to attain this perfection. I have to do that. And so, I think really reminding ourselves of when we feel like that ego is coming up. I think that’s one thing for me that has been really helpful. It’s really not about me.

And even allowing myself to fail in some moments and being like, yeah, that’s okay. You fumble even a church event and being like—one of my mantras is I guess Jesus is still Lord. Because what about my leadership or lack thereof could have any impact on who he is in the coming of his kingdom.

And so, I think that’s one thing for me, that’s been helpful to address this creation of ego that I think is unhealthy in leadership. I guess Jesus is still Lord, right? And even when I think that things go well in my leadership or things have maybe been like what we might call successful is just to remind myself and not like the false humility of oh, I didn’t do anything. Yeah, God has equipped me and called me to participate in this, but I didn’t create the kingdom. I didn’t make Jesus Lord. You know what I mean? And so, I think just keeping that perspective of the right things and in the right order has been really helpful.

And then again coming back to community and people who will speak that truth in love has been something that has been something that’ll help address those patterns and ways of thinking that are barriers for me to have those friends who can say, hey you maybe have been doing this, or it seems like you’re thinking this; that seems less than what God has for you.

What do you think about that? Oh, maybe you’re right. Or let’s pray together. Or I know you’ve been trying to establish this rhythm, maybe we can do it together. Those kinds of things are another thing that have really helped me to move past those barriers that I’ve encountered because we can’t do it alone. Those barriers are—they can be strong. And so sometimes what I’ve experienced is on my own I’m not strong enough. And so, God brings me people to help me get through those barriers, and together we’re stronger.

[00:32:36] Michelle: I think that’s really good. What I hear you saying is really, to remember our invitation to check our responses, because really, I think when we get into the linear process of speaking of what brings us unhealthy patterns, that’s a sense of control. And in the end, the one thing we can control is our response. Everything else—the Holy Spirit is the wind that fuels it, our spiritual power.

And so, I think that reality check of where control really lies, and it really is in our response and an invitation to see, once again, ourselves rightly. And then in that, corporately, the idea of just humbly submitting to one another too, To remember that it’s not all on us to control by ourselves, that God gives us people to speak truth, to speak love and to the importance of naming things for one another, I think that’s what was coming up for me. That when we aren’t focused on ourselves and trying to be perfect, we can have the eyes to see how God is moving in other people’s lives. And there’s power when we can name that for one another too. I think those are great healthy practices that we can incorporate.

Thank you. You’ve given us a lot to think about and some good starting places and processes. As we wrap up, what are some encouragements or advice that you would give pastors and local leadership teams developing personal and corporate rhythms of healthy leadership?

[00:34:09] Cara: Yeah. I would say get started. Just get started, right? God is good and faithful to teach us and to invite us in. And so just because it’s not linear, it’s not formulaic, it might be messy at times and really challenging at times. But it’s a sacred process too. It’s a blessed process. And so, in that sense, there’s no right or wrong way to start because God’s the one that’s faithful in the process. Just start. Try something and discern together and see what God is doing in the midst of that. And then try something else and see what kind of rhythms develop from there.

Also, I think another thing that I found helpful that can be a good starting place too—and it’s easy to be like, yeah, just start, but where? And it’s easy to be like, oh, yeah, there’s no right or wrong. But if this is something that’s brand new, you can be like, okay, there’s no right or wrong, but I don’t even know how do I take a step? One thing that’s been helpful to me is we have a long church history tradition of people who have followed Christ in the leadership of the church.

And so, there are a lot of practices, a lot of in the different traditions within the historical church. And we can even look to, to be like, let’s try this spiritual discipline and see how this sits with us personally and corporately. Let’s look into this way of thinking about healthy leadership and holistic living. Let’s look into this.

And so, you don’t have to start from scratch to just start and keep going. There’s a long history of wisdom that we can start with too. And there’s wisdom today, and there are communities and people that are pursuing health and their leadership and discipleship today.

Again, don’t do it alone, don’t do it alone! But it’s worth it. Again, discipleship embracing a journey of healthy leadership, it’s a taste of his kingdom here on earth. It’s messy. It can be brutal. It can be joyful. It can be beautiful.

But it’s always good. Because he’s good, it could be all those things at the same time at once.

[00:37:06] Michelle: Yeah. And I hear in that encouragement for those who are beginning, also an invitation for those who may already be a little further down on this journey, to keep it fresh, because I think it’s also dynamic.

And I think we’ve been talking about discernment in this as well. That’s been a thread throughout this conversation. And I think God is constantly inviting us forward towards him. He promises, as you’ve been saying about his faithfulness, to complete the work he began. And I think in that, we are invited to be reflective in our rhythms, to keep it fresh.

To think about in this season of life, in my secondary calling (to bookend back to the beginning of the conversation), what is God inviting me into in this season? And what practices and rhythms can I inhabit in order to support that and to join with him? Yeah, thank you for that encouragement.

[00:37:57] Cara: Absolutely.

[00:37:58] Michelle: Before we head to some other portions of this podcast, what are some final words that you’d like to leave our listeners with?

[00:38:07] Cara: Have fun. You’re in the hands of one who’s capable. It’s going to be all right. He’s got you.

[00:38:19] Michelle: All right, now we’re moving into the portion that I have most been looking forward to, and I know you’re going to thrive in it. But for every other guest who’s been on the other side of this mic, we’re going to do some fun questions. So, I’m just going to throw out some questions to you, and I want you to share with us your first thoughts.

Okay. All right? What dish do you cook best?

[00:38:40] Cara: Oh, I don’t really, huh, not a great—rice. Rice, yeah. In a rice cooker.

[00:39:01] Michelle: What never fails to make you laugh?

[00:39:02] Cara: Ooh cat videos.

[00:39:03] Michelle: One of my core memories is you looking at one of your cats.

[00:39:04] Cara: Oh, yes.

[00:39:07] Michelle: So that’s relatable. That leads me up to our next question. Cats or dogs?

[00:39:10] Cara: Ooh. This is… Don’t let my babies hear this, but if I have to choose—cats.

[00:39:18] Michelle: Oh, I had a backup question because I didn’t think you were going to answer.

[00:39:21] Cara: Really?

[00:39:21] Michelle: But I appreciate your authenticity once again. Okay. Best concert experience?

[00:39:30] Michelle: I had.

[00:39:31] Cara: Oh, no, why would you do this to me?

Man, I have to choose one? If I had to choose one, if you twisted my arm, I’d have to say this year I saw Pink in concert, and I’ve been wanting to see her in concert since I was like 11. It was everything I ever thought would be. Yes. Yes.

[00:39:58] Michelle: Alright, if you had to undergo a procedure to erase memories, would you?

[00:40:03] Cara: All of the memories? Or specific ones? Specific ones, yeah. Oh, that’s a good question. Nah, I don’t think so. Yeah. Cause they make us, right? Yeah. I don’t think so. It is tempting. I had to think about it for a second, but I’m like, who would I be if I didn’t have those? I’d be a different…I don’t want to be a different. Yeah, exactly.

[00:40:31] Michelle: God’s already done the work on this version. We don’t want to start over.

[00:40:33] Cara: I don’t want to reset, exactly.

[00:40:37] Michelle: Alright, and lastly, what makes you hopeful?

[00:40:39] Cara: Ooh, that’s so good. Jesus. But like the real expression of that is just like, those little moments where you can see, where I can see and experience him in the midst of just like the craziness and the chaos and the, I don’t know, the difficulty and tragedy of life on this side of eternity.

I’m like that’s hopeful to me because it’s those like reminders of that promise that like this isn’t all that there is, like there’s more to come and that his, I don’t know, his goodness, his kingdom is resilient, that it’s like, it pops up in the most unexpected places.

[00:41:37] Michelle: Yeah, those glimmers of redemption that there’s nothing that can thwart his mission to draw us to him. Yeah. Thank you for that.

And thank you for joining us today. And thank you for being willing to be on the other side of the mic to share your experience and your wisdom with us because I think we’ve drawn out a lot in this episode.

[00:41:56] Cara: Absolutely. It’s been fun.

[00:41:58] Michelle: As is our practice, we would like to end the show with a prayer.

Would you be willing to pray for our churches, our pastors, and our ministry leaders in GCI?

[00:42:05] Cara: Yes, I’d love to. Let’s pray.

Lord God, we come before you just so thankful that you are pleased to be our God. You are so pleased to be our God that you meet us exactly where we are, that you, Jesus, came to become one of us, to walk in our shoes, to redeem us, to make us a pathway to be whole and redeemed. And we thank you that you have a plan for all of humanity, and for each and every one of us personally, that you call us by name.

God, I pray your blessing over all of our ministry leaders, our congregations, our members in GCI. You would by the presence of your Spirit, just invigorate us, embolden us to say yes to your invitation towards discipleship, health, health according to your vision and purpose. That that boldness would be enough to see us through the hardest days of this journey of discipleship and enough to help us celebrate the most joyous days, enough to get us through the confusion of the days when it’s both.

And I thank you, God, that at the end of the day you are our health. Even when we’re unhealthy, you are the promise of our health. Even on the days that we’re most weak, that you meet us in those places. It’s not on us to make ourselves healthy. It’s not on us to maintain that image or to pull ourselves up. But that we know the one who, throughout the ages, has been called the great physician.

We thank you, Lord Jesus. And we ask that we would experience you more and more each and every day, because we know that your invitation is wide open. We praise you that you are so faithful to us. And we pray this in your holy and wonderful name. Amen.

[00:44:26] Michelle: Amen. Thank you, Cara. I’m going to pass the baton back to you to cue us out.

[00:44:32] Cara: Until next time, friends, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the GC Podcast. We hope you have found value in it to become a healthier leader. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic, or if there is someone who you think we should interview, email us at info@gci.org. Remember, Healthy Churches start with healthy leaders; invest in yourself and your leaders.

The post Rhythms of Healthy Leadership w/ Cara Garrity first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Rhythms of Healthy Leadership w/ Daphne Sidney

Welcome to the GC Podcast, a podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This episode is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today I am overjoyed to interview Daphne Sydney. She’s this GCI Superintendent of Australasia, and she is blessed to be married with two children, one grandchild, and two dogs. Her hobbies include art—both creating and appreciating art—and books, which is something that we both share.

Daphne, thank you so much for joining the GC Podcast today.

[00:00:51] Daphne: Thank you Cara, so much. I really appreciate being able to have this discussion with you this evening. It’s a real privilege, and warm greetings to all our listeners.

[00:01:02] Cara: Yes, I’m looking forward to it as well. And today we’re really going to be focusing our time on rhythms of healthy leadership.

So, to start, I’m curious, what does healthy leadership mean to you, Daphne?

[00:01:15] Daphne: Thank you, Cara. By way of introduction, I came across a statement from NCLS, that is the National Church Life Survey here in Australia, which noted that leadership is everyone’s business. And one aspect of church life is creating a leadership culture, which I thought was really interesting. It is really what we are contributing to tonight, where leaders are developed, supported, validated, and given opportunity to grow.

So, I just thought that’s a really nice introduction. And they also say that two things that really are important keys to growing healthy church are inspiring, empowering, leadership, coupled with growing and owned vision.

So those are two important keys for healthy church leadership and vision. So, what does healthy leadership mean to me? I’d like to start with the incarnational ministry of Christ. Incarnation ministry and leadership is not something we can do on our own. In that sense, we are participating in the life and mission of Jesus. And incarnation leadership is about Jesus who became flesh and dwelt among us, where Jesus fully divine, became fully human, and he was willing to come down to us to enter our world of pain and sorrow in spite of the fact that he is our God and creator.

And in Galatians, it says, it’s no longer I who live, but Christ lives in us. And so then may we be the hands and the feet of Jesus as we are called to participate in that mission of ministry and leadership of Jesus Christ. I just feel that Jesus was so transformational in his life and leadership, and he is the way, the truth, and the life.

So, for us to embody him in our leadership, Jesus faced the full extent of temptations yet without sin. Jesus is one who could empathize with our human experience. Yet he did not capitulate to sin but maintained his identity and his purpose for coming. And I think this sets a very interesting tone for our leadership today as we live in this post-Christian skeptical world, undermining of Christianity.

We empathize with people. We care, and we love them. But at the same time, we need not to lose ourselves or be overwhelmed by the philosophies of the day, but to hold onto our identity in Christ. Jesus was determined and so courageous as he surrendered his will to the Father. And we can recall Jesus in the garden and his prayer, Father, all things are possible for you. Take this cup away from me, nevertheless, not my will, but yours be done.

And then in the same setting, Jesus heals the ear of the servant of the high priest, which Peter had cut off. This was mercy and compassion for those who had come to arrest him. So only love and compassion can bring us such transcendence as it is God’s love overflowing, which makes for a transformational leader.

In researching contemporary leadership theories, I was interested in the work around transforming leadership. There’s quite a bit of material on that, and one statement that stood out to me was in Burn’s work. And to cut it very short, in all that he had written, he said he advised leaders to develop their followers to be leaders themselves.

I thought that was a beautiful statement. No longer just followers, but encouraged to become leaders, encouraging the followers to become leaders—allowing for questions, encouraging questions, encouraging discussion and input. And I think this helps put language to how Jesus was transformational because he invested in his followers to become leaders themselves.

He led and inspired those motley 12 disciples—Peter, headstrong fisherman, and Matthew, a tax collector. Imagine the variety of people that he worked with and increased this circle and inspired them to take his message right to the ends of the earth. That’s inspiration, isn’t it? Jesus certainly shared the vision with them.

He was relentless in preaching about the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven. And Jesus equipped them for three and a half years on the ground with them talking through every experience and every encounter. And Jesus didn’t shy away from difficult encounters. He said he had to go through some area where others would avoid that area.

Jesus said, I have to go through some area, a cross-cultural experience. Not only a different culture, but crossing cultural norms in speaking to a woman, giving her dignity and empowering her to go and give her testament to the village. And I love that it says in John 4, many of the Samaritans from that town believed in Jesus because of that woman’s testimony. A marginalized woman, non-Jewish, made a very effective leader by her presence with Jesus.

And Jesus led with such grace and compassionate heart, demonstrated so many times, and we know that he wept with Mary and Martha as he felt very deeply for them and their loss of their beloved brother. Jesus cared for the crowds who were hungry and fed them. He healed the sick and oppressed.

He also took time out alone with the Father. He treasured that time in connection and connecting with his Father. Jesus felt great compassion as he saw the people who were weary and worn out like sheep without a shepherd, Matthew 9. So, he is the good shepherd, and that also provides a wonderful example of leadership for us today. The shepherd and sheep analogy is used both in the Old Testament and the New and can be viewed as a very relational kind of leadership.

David himself was a shepherd, so he understood this shepherd to sheep relationship, and David was a man after God’s own heart. The shepherd loves his sheep. He knows them and calls them by name. And as we read in John 10:3, the sheep listened to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

He leads them. Verse 4, he goes on ahead of them and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. This speaks to trust and respect, an intimate relationship, which is a beautiful model, again, for leadership. And I think this would also lead us into the model of servant leadership where we have, Jesus Christ once again, the one who wrapped the towel around himself and proceeded to wash the disciple’s feet.

The one who told us, go and do likewise. Matthew 20:28, just as Jesus came to serve, not to be served, and to give his life as a ransom for many. What an incredible gift. Hence, our team-based, pastor led model of leadership, serving and building a team, utilizing giftings, collaboration, and building community through a shared vision.

Jesus Christ, in Philippians 2:5-8, shows how we are to have the same mindset. That mindset of a servant leadership. In verse 5, it says, in your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus, who being in the very nature, God did not consider equality with God, something to be used to his own advantage. Rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness and being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death, even on the cross.

I just think Jesus is really our all. He is the way, the truth, and the life when we think of that approach to leadership.

[00:10:00] Cara: Absolutely. And what I love about what you’ve shared and how it lays a foundation for how we can think about healthy leadership as, first and foremost, Jesus is our one and only most perfect, healthy leader.

[00:10:17] Daphne: Yes. That’s it.

[00:10:18] Cara: And so, we lead in and through him only as a participation in who he is. And he’s the one who leads in and through us. I think that’s an incredible, beautiful thing. And it’s also both freeing and challenging for us as leaders in the church. I really appreciate that you started us off there, Daphne. So, thank you so much for that.

And then also bringing it back to even an organizational practical level, how that informs our team-based pastor led model.

In what you shared, I heard even those threads and rhythms of engaging and equipping and encouraging and empowering because those are things that we have been wanting to build into, like you said, our culture of leadership in GCI because those are rhythms that we see in who Jesus is.

Those are the particular words that we’ve chosen in GCI to use as part of our own culture. But they’re based on that foundation that you’ve so beautifully laid out for us, that are modeled after Jesus, our one true and perfect healthy leader. And so, thank you so much for that.

[00:11:44] Daphne: Oh, you’re welcome.

Yeah. I think it’s so beautiful the way we see the 4 Es all through the way Jesus did everything. You know how he engaged people, how he equipped them and empowered them and encouraged them. It’s just so evident in his life.

[00:12:01] Cara: Absolutely. And now that we’ve looked at that foundation of what healthy leadership is and how we want to define that, Daphne I’m wondering what are some ways that you intentionally develop rhythms that point to and form healthy leadership? And both personally for you as a leader in GCI, but also regionally as a superintendent, what are some of the things that you do to encourage those rhythms of healthy leadership for those that you lead?

[00:12:40] Daphne: Yeah. Okay. Thank you, Cara. Personally, and of first importance, I think is that of growing in Jesus Christ. That he becomes prominent in our thinking, living, and being. And Peter’s final words in 2 Peter, grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior to grow into Jesus Christ.

And that’s something I think, in terms of rhythms, that’s a daily thing that we need to be doing. Paul also writes about this, how he labored for Christ to be formed in the brethren, and that was his deep desire. Again, it comes down to these daily rhythms of looking to really grow in Jesus Christ through that, through the spiritual disciplines.

And Paul, you can see he just had such a heart for Christ to be formed in them that he said he describes that moment of childbirth as Christ being formed in them. And now the letters, he also says, and Christ in you, the hope of glory so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.

And this is a journey of faith, and Christ must increase as I decrease. And it’s a realization that Christ is in us, that he’s doing the work along with all the others in whom he has formed. And it’s not about us and our works, but it’s Christ and his work in us.

So, I’m still much a work in progress of Christ being formed in me. And I pray to be more prominent that Christ can be more prominent and evident in my work. And I think, as I said, spiritual formation then is that ongoing process. It’s day by day rhythm, really, which involves that regular rhythm of reading the word and prayer and meditation, which helps keeps us in that formation process.

And I like Mulholland’s description of spiritual formation. And I think it’s so beautifully expressed. I just like to read it out for our listeners.

It is a process of being formed in the image of Christ, a journey into becoming persons of compassion persons who forgive persons who care deeply for others, and the world persons who offer themselves to God to become agents of divine grace in the lives of others and their world. [Invitation to a Journey by M. Robert Mulholland, Jr.]

In brief, persons who love and serve as Jesus did. Like many, I struggle with busyness, the busyness of life and work too. But I realize that spiritual formation is vital for the Christian leader, for that stability, sustainability, and growth. Not just for the self, but for all those that we serve, for the whole church community and for our neighborhoods.

So that Christ is in us enabling us to reach out and touch lives with love and compassion. So there does need to be that daily rhythm of seeking Christ and having him being formed in us, being very mindful of that, so that we can have Christ in us and his love and compassion, because humanly we can run dry.

In terms of other rhythms, there’s my family rhythms, spending time with family and on weekends getting together sometimes, and then Christmas time. So, there’s also those family patterns and rhythms.

And I think another rhythm is important in terms of a leadership is being a lifelong learner. It’s a trait needed for healthy leadership. And I’ve been blessed with the freedom over the years and enjoyed that rhythm of taking courses or classes or learning something. Always learning something, always learning and having that posture of curiosity. And even now, if someone mentions a book, I’m eager to buy it, to discover and think, what are they finding so interesting.

And I have a friend who loves poetry and so he’s picked my interest lately again in poetry. And I think great communicators have been poets or have at least appreciated poetry. And I’ve also taken art and painting courses. because I believe that having a wide range of interests enables us to relate to people and communicate with them in many varied ways. So, creativity and arts, having a rhythm of that also helps us to thrive and not merely survive.

So, in terms of rhythms of healthy leadership development for our region, we can look at this from a weekly to an annual cycle or rhythm. Pastors are encouraged to take their annual leave to ensure they have time off for refreshing and family time off during the week, because usually their weekends are a busy time engaged in church and activities and ecclesiastically.

First of all, we have the Christian calendar, which supports leaders in conducting those annual rhythms of worship centered around the life of Jesus, that we as a church communion are kept in those annual seasons of worship. And I think that’s a beautiful rhythm that we have from the calendar and for a couple of our focus churches, outreach to neighborhood.

I hold events around seasons too, such as Christmas or Easter. And I think it’s good to think of rhythms in terms of those seasonal outreaches, so it’s not just a one-time event. There’s a follow-up and rhythm to work towards. And that is so important in leadership roles that our thought processes are to discern what Jesus Christ is already doing and how do we participate in that?

How do we participate in his rhythms, discerning what’s next or what is the next step? And most of our church services now have included a rhythm of either weekly or monthly communion. So that brings much more depth now and meaning and Christ-centeredness to our services. A couple of churches also hold youth and children’s church on a regular basis, and it’s vital to be mindful of our children and youth.

And I’d like to see more rhythms of activity for our youth. We also have other established rhythms, like the National Board has an annual retreat at the beginning of the year. John Mclean has given some excellent board trainings at these. The national ministry team held a retreat at the beginning of this year, and we’d like to do that as an annual rhythm.

We have monthly trainings on Zoom for the Australian pastors, where we invite guest speakers. I think we’ve invited you to some of those, Cara. We recently had Dr. Charles Fleming on Missional Living. They’re wonderful having guest speakers that help us in our journey. We’ve had other GCI superintendents, and it’s wonderful too to be able to learn from their experiences.

And we have presentations on GCI materials, from Media on Healthy Church, the three Avenues, team-based pastor led model, et cetera. We also hold national pastoral conferences every year or so, and a large Australian conference every three years. And last year, we were blessed to have Greg and Susan Williams attend, which made it very special.

New Zealand also holds an annual retreat, and this year they are having trainings on the 4 Es. With Coach Martin Bailey, the Caloundra and Echuca annual celebrations have resumed again after Covid, as we had a bit of a break during Covid. And Tasmania’s having an Advent retreat again this year at the end of November.

We also commit to annual trips to visit our brethren in the islands in Papua New Guinea and Solomon Islands and Vanuatu. Otherwise, they can feel quite isolated, and they really look forward to those annual visits. So, it’s wonderful that we’re able to do that and that’s a rhythm or something that they look forward to, to keep us connected and together.

So, we give God the glory for what he is doing, and we have so much to learn. And we pray that as Christ is being formed in us, we become pliable in his hands, that we are being shaped and molded by him because we can’t do it on our own. And we just pray that we’re in his rhythms as he’s showing and leading us.

[00:21:29] Cara: Amen. Daphne, there’s so much richness in what you just shared. I can’t even decide what I want to highlight first. I really appreciate—and I hope that our listeners, this isn’t lost on them—that the first thing that you mention again, is the rhythms of spiritual formation.

Because if we take seriously what you said that Jesus is our one and only perfectly healthy leader. And he’s the first of the new humanity, right? Then the first rhythm of healthy leadership for us as his followers is to be formed in his likeness and to continue to be in agreement, in being formed into his likeness by his Holy Spirit.

And so, to be in that rhythm of formation, of seeking him, that is a beautiful thing. And because first and foremost, we are his disciples and his followers, even before we are leaders in his church. So, I really hope listeners that’s not lost, that is definitely the wisdom that you have, that you started with that.

And then corporately, I love those rhythms of healthy leadership that you mentioned. I saw a balance of rhythms of rest and learning, of doing things hands-on, that there was a balance of that. Not just coming aside to learn, but then putting things into action and truly participating in Jesus’s ministry.

So not just rhythms of learning things of how to be a healthy leader, but to put healthy leadership into action. And then I’m really impressed with the rhythms that you described. They’re not rhythms in isolation. They’re rhythms where leaders are able to come together and be together.

Community as the body of Christ, and that is so key for healthy leadership. You mentioned things like retreats. And both, retreats just for rest and retreats for trainings and for learning. And being prepared to go out and participate in ministry. Daphne, that is so important for the development of healthy leadership.

That’s such important rhythms because the statistics on how isolated many church leaders feel; it’s devastating. And so that your rhythms include coming together for leaders is such a healthy thing. God created us for community, as his body. And so, I love that you highlighted that and that those are some of the rhythms that are being encouraged in your region.

That is such a beautiful thing, such richness in the rhythms that you described.

[00:24:54] Daphne: Oh, thank you, Cara. One thing that has helped us out of Covid actually is being able to Zoom. Because we are a large country, Zoom at least once or twice a month with all the pastors has been fantastic.

[00:25:07] Cara: Yes. That being able to come together, that’s a sacred thing, right? We weren’t created to be alone. Absolutely.

[00:25:18] Daphne: That’s right. Because isolation and loneliness can be quite a difficult thing for leaders. So, it’s very important to have those meetings either on Zoom, and of course getting together in person, that cannot be replaced as well.

[00:25:35] Cara: Absolutely. Like I said, there’s so much richness and wisdom and I think experience in what you just shared. So, I’m wondering for our newer emergent leaders, what is something you wish that you knew early on in your leadership development, regarding your growth or rhythms of healthy leadership?

[00:26:04] Daphne: Perhaps it’s not just new things I wish I knew early on, but things which I would like to have understood more deeply. God gives us more depth of understanding as we face some of those tough experiences through our Christian journey and leadership. I think in any kind of ministry leadership, we walk with people through good times, the peaks of life, and we walk with them through the valleys. It’s such a privilege to be part of people’s lives and it’s sacred ground really.

We have our own ups and downs, and I realize more and more that it’s really a journey of the heart, both head and heart, but a lot of heart. And sometimes there’s just no words. We groan in the spirit, so to speak. We need his interceding for us in both how we respond and encourage others, but also how we manage ourselves.

Coming back to that self-awareness acknowledging our own feelings and failures. One verse I’ve learned more about recently is finding the rhythm, so to speak, of rest and peace in Jesus and being able to let go of many things. Because there are a lot of worries and concerns about the future that we can hold onto if we wanted to.

It is okay to be human. Even leaders are humans. But I love Matthew 11:28 where Jesus says, come unto me all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me. For I am gentle and humble in heart.

And I’ve never really noticed before so much the heart aspect of Jesus. [inaudible] in heart, and you will find rest for your souls, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light. And it’s only in recent times that I’ve realized that this is really preceded by verses showing the relationship of the Father to the Son and the dynamics of the Trinity.

In verse 27, just preceding it says, all things have been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son, and to those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

So that handing over to the Son is like letting go. That pouring out and emptying of yourself, it’s that letting go and it’s that giving and the receiving. And it’s all done in that mutual love and oneness. And these are the beautiful rhythms of our triune God. And I’ve come to realize how this pattern can help us in our rhythms of life and the experiences that we face—that pouring out, the letting go, and the receiving of God’s love.

Sometimes we forget to receive his love and that gives me strength to embrace the human circle of life and be able to help others through it. Because I think as we’re an aging church, we are having quite a few of our beautiful, longtime members who are passing. And that’s, I think, a time of grief for our church in many ways.

But by thinking about this in terms of that beautiful rhythm of the triune God, I think it gives us that strength. Sometimes that is through being vulnerable, humble in heart, being human and real about ourselves and acknowledging our feelings. Just as Jesus wept, he didn’t hide that Jesus wept so that others can relate.

Just as an example, we’ve kept in touch with our neighborhood, with our neighbor from our previous residence. We moved a couple of years ago, but she still likes to keep in touch. And just recently she called us because she’s just been diagnosed with esophageal cancer. And she’d like us to visit her.

She just really wants to pour out her heart and have a hug, and we’d be more than happy to do that. But it’s just lovely that we’ve still got that connection. And you can see that the needs of the heart and how people just need to be heard and perhaps just need that hug and help people let go.

Her husband is very ill, and he has a brain tumor. And she’s probably likely to die very soon as well. Letting go is a big part of life. Even seeing your own child grow to adulthood and handing over responsibility to their lives. It’s that letting go of your children or losing loved ones is the hardest as we go through grief and loss or watching your child with a disability go through the disappointments as they’re not able to keep up with their peers.

Or sometimes feeling a failure when your messages feel like they’ve been a flop or perhaps [inaudible] this day. It’s interesting to go back one verse further, even to verse 26. It says that these things have been revealed to little children, reminding us again of our vulnerability, just needing to be childlike.

Not in an immature way, but just in regard to the childlike openness to love. Children make mistakes. They fall over, but they get up again. And we can give all of this to Jesus. And when I think of Jesus who emptied himself, he was stripped of everything and stretched out on that cross, he was mocked and doubted.

So, Jesus can truly empathize with our feelings. He invites us to bring all of ourselves to him, not just part of us, but all of ourselves to him, to be buried in the tomb with him, but most importantly to be raised up again with him. And he gives us that help to be persistent, to get up again, to persevere.

He raises our spirits and helps us through. The point is we can safely leave things to him. And I think that’s the most beautiful thing because sometimes when we talk about letting go, it’s not like you can just let go to the thin air. But we know with God, we can give it to him, and we let go because he holds it.

And then he raises us up, and he raises our spirits and helps us through. And sometimes when you think about little children, you know that circle of security, we see that children will come to a parent for a hug and then they venture out and do something. And then they come back again to the parent’s lap for love and security. Then they venture out a little bit further. And it’s a rhythm and it’s a rhythm of that giving and receiving and letting go. And we have that with Jesus. When we have that wonderful relationship with him, we know that he holds us. And then he gives us the courage to go out. Then we come back again for more feeling of his love and strength and security.

So, we have that beautiful rhythm in that circle of security.

[00:33:08] Cara: Thank you, Daphne. I think that’s beautifully described and I like the way you said too, it’s not necessarily a new thing, but a depth of knowing and a grounded-ness in that truth.

And I do think that’s a beautiful thing and what a gift that it would be for those early on in their development as leaders. If we could package that up and give that grounded-ness and give that sense of grounded-ness even on those toughest days in ministry and in life. The firmness of that truth of who Christ is. That’s beautiful.

I’m wondering too because you’ve described a lot of really rich and beautiful things about what Jesus teaches us about healthy leadership and how we can participate in that, what that looks like when we allow ourselves to be formed by him and his spirit in that healthy leadership.

What are some patterns that you’ve seen over your time in leadership or maybe ways of thinking that can get in the way of developing those rhythms of healthy leadership?

[00:34:48] Daphne: John Maxwell claims that what sabotages more leadership efforts and derails good teams more than anything else is that lack of self-awareness. And he goes on to say, when leaders don’t see themselves clearly or are unaware of their strengths and weaknesses, or fail to recognize their negative interactions, they limit their influence and undermine their own effectiveness.

And as Socrates said, the unexamined life is not worth living. And I always thought that’s a hard statement, but it seems a very strong statement to make. But it is important as the toughest person to lead is always our self.

Even Edmund Hillary in climbing Mount Everest, and he reached the peak. He said, it’s not the mountain we have to conquer, but it is ourselves. So that self-awareness really is important. However, in contemporary leadership theories, it’s noticed that despite recognition of the importance of self-awareness and continuing self-evaluative processes, relatively little attention has been directed at understanding how this type of leadership is fostered.

So, I think this gives value to the work of Giant authors, in those articles, know yourself to lead yourself and the tools that they’ve developed. And Giant uses the infinity symbol to show leadership is a journey ongoing, and that self-awareness is a never-ending process in terms of infinity.

It’s ongoing, and the self-awareness angle that they put it into two simple commitments, which I think makes it easy to understand, isn’t it? A commitment to understand how you’re wired, the tendencies that result from such wiring and the impact those tendencies have on others. And two, a commitment to change your negative tendencies in order to become the best person and leader you can be.

So that willingness to change really is the hard part, isn’t it? If I’m not willing to change and grow, then all the efforts around self-examination really are pointless. But it’s just the difficult part really.

The truth is we need help. And that’s where the Psalms, I think—in praying the Psalms is a wonderful help because this reminds me of Psalms 19:12. It says, who can discern his own errors? Cleanse me from my hidden faults.

Because sometimes there are things that are hidden to us, but God knows us better than anyone, than even we ourselves know ourselves. In Psalm 139:23-24, God, the Psalm says, search me. Oh God, know my heart. Try me and know my thoughts and see if there be any wicked way in me and lead me in the way everlasting.

And other translations say, see if there’d be any hurtful way in me, or if there’d be offensive tendency or any way in me that is grievous, then please lead me in that way everlasting—meaning, lead me in the ways that reflect Jesus.

It’s Jesus that really can only change our heart. And that’s what’s important to the Father, really is our heart. And he can change any hurtful or harmful tendencies and that can be our prayer. And instead to change them to those tendencies of his that reflect him of love and love of God, love of neighbor, and wanting to see the best for others, even to the love of our enemies.

And I think Hebrews 12 also touches on something else which can get in the way of healthy leadership. In verse 15, it says, see to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble. So bitter roots can also be a big hindrance. And in dealing with roots of bitterness, again, we must first deal with ourselves.

It comes to that self-awareness and what is in our own hearts, because roots, they grow under the ground. They’re not visible to the naked eye, and sometimes they’re not even visible to the person. And it could be hurts or pains from childhood issues or rejection or abuse or painful experiences later in life. And if they’ve not been dealt with, they can cause anger and hatred and envy.

Sometimes those things just sit and simmer and could even be the seeds of mental illness or emotional instability. And one tendency which is not healthy, is to deal with these symptoms through self-medicating, which often happens through alcohol or drugs or destructive behaviors like very impulsive anger or outbursts.

So, a healthy leader is one who recognizes this and seeks help and encourages another to seek help if there be underlying issues, which is holding someone back. And it’s not shameful to get help through counseling or spiritual direction or chaplaincy supervision. It’s a healthy thing. And I think we need to overcome the stigma that it’s a weakness to ask for help.

It’s a great power in having professionals to talk to and talk things through—someone who can help us work through painful issues because it can be a wonderful release and a healing to the mind and the body. So myself, coming from a psychology and social work background, it’s very normal that we have that regular and ongoing supervision so that we have someone professional to talk to about that journey of life so that things don’t get below the surface and develop those unhealthy roots.

So instead, we really to be rooted in the love of Christ to be digging into his word, into the meaning of grace and forgiveness. Realize the lavish love of God is poured out into our hearts by the Holy Spirit and the power of forgiveness and of grace. God is a healer, and we can trust him that he knows is best.

He is a God of compassion and care, and we can trust him with our thoughts and our anxious thoughts. And at times he would also allow us to get help from humans, other people who can help us. And that’s not a bad thing. It’s a good thing. But also, as it says in Peter, cast all your anxiety or burdens on him because he cares for you.

In fact, the verse before this says, humble yourselves under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. And one commentary notes that casting your cares on him is not offering a new command but is defining how believers are to be humble. Taking that word casting, and it should be connected with the word humble, which means enriching the understanding of both verbs, humbling ourselves and casting our cares on him.

And that’s not a negative, but a positive action and one of active dependence on God for help, and God will help us. And sometimes that is in the form of another person and there’s no shame in reaching out for help. I think that’s an important aspect of answering the question on how to address issues or things that come up which may hinder healthy leadership.

And just to encourage that open conversation one-on-one, encourage people to seek professional help, either in the form of chaplaincy or spiritual direction or counseling and always try to be the active listener and try to listen for what’s happening for the person. Let people know that you’re there for them and with them and be willing to challenge when needed.

But as our model suggests, always with high support and grace always.

[00:43:03] Cara: Thank you, Daphne. That is excellent word for our listeners and our leaders. And so, as we come up towards the end of our time together in this particular conversation, what final encouragement or advice would you give our pastors and local leaders who are developing their rhythms of healthy leadership?

[00:43:38] Daphne: I think that one of the big things, as I said, is really about the spiritual formation. And that development of that healthy inner life as the first protocol when we’re encouraging healthy pastors or healthy leadership because I believe the spiritual disciplines help shape those daily or weekly rhythms in promoting that healthy inner life.

In his book, Eugene Peterson gives a quote, which is quite provocative because the book’s working the angles, the shape of pastoral integrity. But he quotes and a call for all pastors to abandon their preoccupation with image and standing, administration success and economic viability and return to the three basic critical things for the pastoral ministry: praying, reading scripture, and giving spiritual direction.

It comes again, I think, to that spiritual formation. And I love the way that Mulholland explains about the map for spiritual formation because we live in a world of instant gratification, and we look for quick fixes and search for right techniques or proper methods or perfect programs that can immediately deliver. But really the spiritual formation is about spiritual maturity and wholeness. And that is very much a process. And spiritual growth can be likened to the nature of physical growth. And when we think of a baby and spend the first year patiently changing diapers, feeding him or her with milk and gradually [inaudible] and measure the growth pound by pound, and inch by inch.

And we try to build in routine and healthy rhythms of feeding and sleeping to enhance and ensure the baby’s nurture and growth. And similar in the spiritual journey, having that nurture and growth in a rhythm. Thus, in summary, he notes “that Christian journey is an intentional and continual commitment to a lifelong process of growth toward wholeness in Christ. It is a process growing up in every way into him who is the head into Christ, Ephesians 4:15, until we attain to the mature personhood, to the mature measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.”

So, in practical terms of encouraging leaders in the spiritual journey we have a few different tools. We have the ACCM course on spiritual formation and other courses and Grace Communion Seminary courses. One of our pastors [in Australia] now has graduated from GCS and others are in the process. And John Mclean is running cohorts of the six core courses of ACCM.

And spiritual disciplines can also be studied in connect groups. And my connect group is just preparing to go through Richard Foster’s Celebration of Discipline, which goes through the disciplines. I think these are wonderful tools that we have.

And Foster talks about the inward—this is referring to the privacy of our intimate walk with Jesus, the meditation, prayer, fasting, and study. And then the outward—those things that affect how we interface with the world, the simplicity, solitude, and submission and service. Then the corporate disciplines these are practiced with others in worship, and all of the disciplines culminate in that worship of God because there’s nothing more valuable or worthwhile than a transforming relationship with the God who made us.

And coming together in worship is so encouraging. The disciplines may come in different orders or with different authors, and that’s fine. We are not meant to default to a legalistic posture with them, but they’re meant to draw us into his love and into his grace. And the spiritual disciplines remind us that we’re human beings and not human doings.

God’s concern for us is also about who we are becoming as they help us detach from the hurried busyness of this world. And I think we’re all trying to cope with that. And I love the prayer of Mulholland in relation to working with the inner life. And I’ll just read out the last portion. This is so beautifully expressed. It says,

You wait in infinite patience for me to open my life to your cleansing and healing, liberating, transforming grace. You wait for me to willingly cooperate with your purposes for my wholeness. Help me, oh God, to offer to you the deep inner yieldedness of my being that will enable my spiritual disciplines to become avenues of your grace in me.

I thought that “avenues of grace” is very beautiful.

[00:48:39] Cara: Yes.

[00:48:40] Daphne: Because that’s really from the avenues of grace that can then flow over into our model of the three Avenues for healthy church: faith, hope and love, but really stemming from those avenues of grace. Mulholland too doesn’t stop with the personal disciplines but notes the imperative of the corporate spirituality.

And we ask the question why? And that is because we’re on a spiritual pilgrimage together in the church, the body of Christ. It’s a collective.

He gives a wonderful story of Dwight Moody. And Dwight was sitting or visiting with the man on a cold winter’s day, and they ushered into a nice, warm sitting room with a blazing fire on the hearth. And after some chat, the man began to argue that it was possible for a person to be a Christian without participating in the life of the church.

Moody remained silent, but he leaned forward in his chair, grabbed the poker, and pulled out one of the burning coals. He left the burning coal by itself on the hearth. Slowly the coal dimmed and died out. After a long pause, the man conceded. “Mr. Moody, you have made your point, because that one coal by itself burnt out and became cold.”

But I think that’s a great segway into the topic of healthy rhythms of corporate leadership. Then firstly is the corporate worship, that coming together for weekly worship services. We have the rhythms found in the Christian worship calendar, which also keep us focused and centered on the life of Jesus. And then we have the RCL, which provides scriptures and readings that keep us in those seasonal patterns and coming together for those celebrations.

It’s a great time of joy and fellowship, and I think that’s a beautiful strength of our church. We love coming together and we love the fellowship. And in terms of the corporate rhythms our president Dr. Greg Williams has provided the GCI 3-year plan towards Healthy Church, which came out in February 2022.

So that’s another rhythm for us to be working on during those three years. And that 3-year plan sets out the plan and action for Healthy Church, healthy leaders, Team based – Pastor led, and the implementation of the three Avenues, the Faith, Hope, and Love. And so, these are three great expressions of who Jesus is and the formation of vision or for our focus churches.

So, our pastors are encouraged to hold those regular pastoral team meetings to be collaborative and encourage ideas and input and to have that excitement about our vision. One of our church areas holds two pastoral team retreats each year for the development of Avenue leaders is ongoing.

Coaching, we have on a regular basis that’s been implemented. And monthly pastoral Zoom meetings, as I mentioned before, are held for the training and fellowship of our pastors. And then we’re encouraged to utilize the 4 Es, which are an amazing tool or a set of principles for any setting.

So, I think we are blessed to have so many tools, and to have the Christian calendar and to have those spiritual formation rhythms, as well, that keep us close to God and keep us focused really on the important things to really promote that healthy inner life from which everything else flows with Jesus Christ in us.

[00:52:23] Cara: Thank you Daphne, for that final encouragement, but I’m not finished with you just yet. Okay. We have on GC Podcast, our tradition is our last segment is a fun rapid fire question segment. So, I have a couple random fun questions for you, and you can answer the first thing that comes to mind.

Are you ready for that? So, the first question is, what’s something that brings you childlike joy?

[00:53:04] Daphne: Just spending time with the family, with my daughters, with my grandson. He is so much fun because we can do the artwork together. We pick up pencils and coloring, making rainbows.

It’s just a childlike enjoyment that I can have with my family and with the dogs.

[00:53:25] Cara: Yes. I love that. Yeah. Okay. What’s the best phrase or piece of slang people in your hometown use?

[00:53:36] Daphne: Australian slang. Oh, we have so many slang words. Maybe one of them I like is, “Good on ya, mate.”

That’s a form of encouragement. Good on ya, mate. Okay.

[00:53:52] Cara: Okay. I like it.

[00:53:53] Daphne: Maybe I should slow it down. It’s good on you, mate, but we say Good on ya.

[00:54:00] Cara: Good on you, mate. Yeah, I like that. That feels encouraging. Yeah. Good.

[00:54:05] Daphne: Good on you, Cara.

[00:54:08] Cara: Oh, thanks, Daphne. All right. If you’re going to a potluck, what is your favorite dish to bring?

[00:54:18] Daphne: One to bring that I cook myself, or one that I’d like to enjoy there? Okay. One that I remember very much from the Philippines is chicken adobo. Oh, I love that. It’s not that I’m very good at cooking that myself, but if that’s there as part of the potluck, I’ll certainly go for chicken adobo. I still remember the beautiful dishes from the Philippines.

[00:54:45] Cara: I’m with you on that one. All right. In your city, what is your number one recommendation for activities or places to visit, things to do?

[00:54:59] Daphne: The Gold Coast is considered a city, and we’ve got beautiful beaches here. So, the high rises are along the beaches.

So, you can stay in one of the high-rise apartments. In the morning, you can just draw the curtains and look at this beautiful ocean with a beautiful white sand. And if you like surfing, you can surf. If you just like to walk on the beach’s beautiful sand. If you like to build sandcastles, it’s all there.

And then best of all, we have good coffee, so you can go enjoy coffee shops, or the lovely places also for meals. But yeah, the Gold Coast is known for its beautiful beaches and relaxed lifestyle, in terms of being able to go surfing or living near the water. But mostly that’s the tourists that enjoy that.

Another beautiful thing is too, during the season you can go to some parts and overlook or go out in a boat and see the whales coming up as they’re migrating. That’s a beautiful, awesome thing to watch too, is the whales have their little calves with them. It’s a wonderful site.

[00:56:13] Cara: Oh, wow. Oh, that does sound really fun.

[00:56:16] Daphne: Yeah. You’ll have to come to visit, Cara.

[00:56:19] Cara: It’s settled. Yeah. I like a nice beach coffee and some animal sightings.

Alright, Daphne, the last question I have for you. If you could live anywhere in the world for a year, where would you go?

[00:56:43] Daphne: Ooh, that’s a hard one, Cara, because we’ve been blessed to have lived in India and the Philippines and around New Zealand, and I’ve visited Fiji. So, any of those countries, I could easily spend one year in because there’s so interesting and such variety of cultures and foods. And we have many fond memories of our time in India with the brethren there, with the beautiful sarees and the beautiful hot curries, and our wonderful time in the Philippines and our visits to Fiji and Solomons and …

Oh, Cara, I have to pick one. It would be very hard, really for me to just choose one.

[00:57:26] Cara: You can hop all around for the year. Okay. As they all sound like wonderful places. I can understand why you have a hard time choosing.

Daphne, thank you so much for your time today. This was a wonderful conversation.

You brought some really incredible insights, some encouragement, and even some challenging words for us and our listeners. So, I thank you so much for just the time that you’ve spent today with us and for all of your thoughts that you’ve shared on healthy leadership. It has been an incredible blessing to hear from you today.

It is our practice with the GC Podcast to end our show with prayer. And so, I would love, if you’re willing, to ask you to pray for our churches and our pastors, our ministry leaders in GCI.

[00:58:26] Daphne: Thank you so much, Cara. It’s been an absolute privilege to be part of this conversation and I’m very happy to pray for our leaders.

Let’s just pray now as we come before our wonderful Father in heaven.

We just thank you, Lord, so much for the love that you bestow on us and the just the beautiful life, Jesus, that you live, that we can live into you, that we can live into your love and into your grace. Father, we pray this for our leadership and for all of our brethren, Father, our pastors, our leaders, our brethren and listeners, that everyone, Lord, would be encouraged by you, Father, that you are there for us.

You stand with us. You intercede for us, Lord, when we do not even have words to say, Father. And we’ve groaned sometimes in pain or with the loss of loved ones and people who are suffering illnesses, Lord, but we just lift them to you, Father, and we are inspired by Jesus and his life that, he wept, he weeps with us.

He knows us. He empathizes with us, but he doesn’t stop there, Lord. He lifts us up as he was raised up. He raises up our spirits. And I just pray, Lord, that if anyone’s discouraged or hurting in any way, please Lord, lift them up, encourage them and let them talk to people and have friends, Lord.

Friendships are a wonderful thing as well, Father, and we have that with you and with our fellow brethren and we thank you, Lord, so much. We thank you for Cara and for this time together and for the support crew. And just thank you, Lord, so much that you made this possible and we just lift it all to you, Father and just pray for your help and encouragement and your blessing on GCI.

We love this church, Lord. We’ve been brought into it, and we thank you for that. We thank you for the privilege, and we just pray especially for our president, Dr. Greg Williams and Susan and for your blessing over them, Lord, to continue to guide and to lead us and to really bless the leadership, Father, of our church that we can be strong and healthy, we can be a healthy church, and we can be excited, Father, about the vision and what you have for us, what you have in store for us.

And may we be led by your rhythms. Father of love and grace, we thank you so much now in Jesus’ name, amen.

[01:00:58] Cara: Amen. Until next time folks, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the GC Podcast. We hope you have found value in it to become a healthier leader. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic, or if there is someone who you think we should interview, email us at info@gci.org. Remember, Healthy Churches start with healthy leaders; invest in yourself and your leaders.

The post Rhythms of Healthy Leadership w/ Daphne Sidney first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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In this episode, our host Cara Garrity interviews Pam Morgan, GCI Operations Coordinator. We wrap up our summer series on healthy rhythms with Cara and Pam discussing rhythms of planning.

Main Points:

What makes planning an important piece of establishing healthy church rhythms? What makes rhythmic planning vs. arhythmic planning helpful in the life of the local church? What elements do you consider when establishing a rhythm of planning? What do you consider when planning an annual budget? What do you consider when planning an annual event/activities calendar? How do you integrate the worship calendar into planning rhythms? Share with us an example of a time you experienced rhythms of planning contributing to the healthy growth of your local church? What do you do when things don’t go as planned?

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Rhythms of Leadership Development w/ Mako Nagasawa Welcome to the GC Podcast, a podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience. Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This episode is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of […] The post Rhythms of Leadership Development w/ Mako Nagasawa first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources....

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Rhythms of Change, Growth, Innovation w/ Jon Ritner Welcome to the GC Podcast, a podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience. Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to the latest episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the […] The post Rhythms of Change, Growth, Innovation w/ Jon Ritner first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources....

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Missional Living w Charles Fleming

Welcome to the GC Podcast. A podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to the latest episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today I am blessed to interview Charles Fleming. Charles retired from GCI in 2019 after over 40 years of service, and during that time he served as a pastor in Jamaica, regional director for Latin American, Caribbean, and a mission developer for the Caribbean region. He’s particularly passionate about the health of the church mission and Spiritual formation.

These days he’s living in Orlando, Florida with his wife, Carmen. They have three adult children and two grandchildren, Addison and Luke. Charles, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s a privilege to have you on the podcast.

[00:01:05] Charles: Cara, thank you so much for having me. I feel very privileged that we can talk about mission, which in many ways is the heartbeat of the church because our Lord Jesus Christ was that first missionary who was sent from heaven. I’m just excited to be with you. Thank you for the opportunity.

[00:01:22] Cara: Absolutely. And amen. Already you’re starting to preach to us, so I say, why don’t we just go on ahead and dive on in. The first thing that I want to ask you, Charles, is what does mission mean for the church?

[00:01:39] Charles: Cara, that’s such a great question. But before we can really talk about what mission means for the church, I think we need to talk a little bit about what is mission. And my simple understanding of mission is what God does. And we get to participate in what God does. And so that’s it.

One of the things that I’ve been excited about is, as you read the literature, more and more people, like Ed Stetzer who works with very well known in evangelical circles, has mentioned that one of the big breakthroughs theologically is the recognition that mission is something that God does. That God is a missional God.

And some people even go so far as to say that they’ve added mission as one of the attributes of God. That familiar list of God is ever present. He’s all wise, all knowing. But in reading the biblical and studying the biblical record and just looking at the activity of the Church over the centuries, many people are now saying that mission is an attribute of God.

And when you think about it, Jesus was sent, and a missionary is someone who is sent. Jesus was sent by the Father, and he actually said as the Father, as he closed his ministry, getting ready to go to the cross, that ultimate sacrifice where he expressed the love of God. Mission is really the overflow of God’s love.

So, Jesus, coming from Father with the Spirit, was that overflow of love and the expression on the cross. But just before he died, he met in private with his disciples in that upper room of John 20. And he says, as the Father has sent me, so I am sending you. So that was like a private commissioning for the disciples, and when becoming now apostles, people who are sent. And then of course there’s the public anointing on Pentecost where the Spirit is given in a very public way.

But back in that private commissioning, Jesus literally breathed on them, says, my peace be upon you. And that word “breath” just evokes an image of the garden of Eden where God breathes a new reality, new entity into reality, humanity. He breathed into our parents, into Adam, the breath of life. And the astronomists tell us that we are stardust because the physical elements of us come from the universe, from the stars.

But when you think of Genesis, we are actually God breathed. We’re not just stardust, but we are God breathed. In that private commissioning, Jesus is creating something new, the church. And so, he breathes life into it. And that helps me to understand why he says his church will never die out because the very life breath of God is in the church. And the reason the church was raised up was to participate with Jesus in the ongoing mission, his ongoing mission.

Mission really explains the nature of and the purpose for the church. We are God’s representatives, his ambassadors, we are a royal priesthood. And I love that term from the Peter’s epistle where he talks about the royal priesthood, because the Bible’s a book that just evokes images.

And you go back to the Garden of Eden, and we see God’s story unfolding in the Garden of Eden. In the Garden of Eden, we see the intent, the original intent of God in creating humanity. He literally created a family when he created Adam. I don’t think it’s an accident that in Luke 3:38, when Luke is giving the genealogy of Jesus, he says, this person was the son of such and such, and that was a son of such and such. When he gets all the way back, he says, and Adam was the son of God.

Many years, I just thought of that as like a literary device, or oh yeah by creation. But when we look at Genesis 1 and 2, we see God fathering his created family, because what does a father do? He provides safety and security.

And what is the Garden of Eden? On a planet that’s teaming with potential but not developed, God places Adam, but not in the undeveloped wilderness. He carves out, he creates a garden. So, for the first time on the planet is what we would call, we humans call culture. There’s agriculture and horticulture.

God creates a safe place for his children. And then you get this picture of him pointing to trees and saying, these are for food. What does a parent do? He provides the physical needs of his children. So, he provides the physical needs, but also the psychological. God is keeping company with Adam.

And then God says these words. He says, it’s not good for this male to be alone. And so, he creates one like him, one equal with him, and declares the two, man and woman, image bearers. There’s an equality in scripture, so we see God’s heart. I’ve created a family that is capable of multiplying. I’m taking care of their physical needs, their safety needs. I’m taking care of their psychological needs.

And then he’s made us to have a needing for purpose and significance. He then says, you are my image bearers. You represent me. This is almost like a priestly role. I want you to view what I’m doing here in this garden. And for me, the Garden of Eden is like a model home.

It’s interesting, Cara, when I first moved in, Carmen and I moved into this house here in Orlando, we drove up from South Florida. And we saw all the beautiful models in the office. But I told the real estate agent, I want to see the property. And he says, you don’t want to go there; it’s just swamp and mosquitoes and trees. And I go, I want to.

At the time, I don’t know why I did it, but now I look back I got a picture of what Eden was like, because we went, and he was right. It was swamp, it was mosquitoes, it was trees. But then six months later we moved up, and there was a subdivision with infrastructure streets and electricity and water and a beautiful home, the home that we wanted.

And even in our fallen state, we are doing what God intended back in the garden where he said, multiply and fill the earth. I want you to do to the rest of the earth what I have done here. I’ve taken this section of the planet that’s teaming with potential, but I’ve developed it as a model to you of what I want you to do.

This was God’s dream. And we see that God had a bigger purpose. He was going to be mentoring Adam and Eve. He’s empowering Adam. He says you get to name the animals. That’s not just giving tasks or responsibilities, it’s giving authority because you are, to use the words from Genesis, you are to rule with and under me.

So, it’s a kingly role. A priestly role was God’s intent. And we read of a tree of life that—in a way I don’t understand—that God was going to allow them, if they made the right choice to somehow transition from mortal to immortal, to borrow Paul’s words. But we know that it was eternal life that was being offered if they made the right choice because he says once they sinned, I’m barring you from this tree because I don’t want you to live forever. Because he knew the kind of hell on earth we would create, and there was no way he was going to allow us to impose on ourselves an eternity of misery and allow us to contaminate the beauty that is heaven, his heavenly realm.

And when you read Genesis, and when I get to the end of chapter 2, if Genesis were a movie, we would cue the ominous music. And very often when I read the end of Genesis 2, I’m actually hearing the theme from Jaws [1975 US film about a shark]. Now that may not be a good representation, but I think you know what that sounds like from Jaws.

But we know what comes in Genesis 3; we call it the fall. And at that point we recognize from the rest of Scripture that the triune God—that sweet society as the Quakers call the Father, Son, and Spirit—they had a choice to make. They have chosen freely to create us, and out of the freedom of their love, they have created us, and they want us to love them back in freedom.

They’re not going to impose us. They’re not going to force us to love them. So, they’ve given us a choice. We can choose to let God be involved in our lives. And think of the beauty of that picture in Genesis 2; it says in the cool of the evening, God comes looking for them. But what do humans do in the cool of the evening?

It’s an evocative phrase. We sit back on the back porch in the evening when we have the time, and we commune with each other. God was not just task-oriented with Adam and Eve; he was enjoying them. God has created a family to enjoy them and enjoy him, the family to enjoy each other.

But also, to be involved in the family business because he’s sending Adam and Eve out to replenish this earth, to fill this earth with life, and to be the priests who would bring out the full potential of the planet to the glory of God, and also to bring joy to ourselves. So that’s the heart we see in Genesis. A God who says, I’ve created a family, and I want to invite them into the family business.

But of course, our parents went prodigal. And if this were a TV series, we would have to get the backstory at this point. And Genesis 1 gives us a glimpse into that backstory where there was a time before time, if I could put it that way, where the triune God had a conversation, let us make humans in our image and likeness.

And they made this decision. But once the fall happens, that prodigal move, we find that God says, we are not going to live through eternity without our beloved family. So now God goes into the phase of regathering the family.

And he sends Abraham to a new land to build a relationship with God. He raises up Israel to be in anticipation of redemption because they were to be a nation representing God’s ways. It literally says in Exodus 19, that they’re to be a kingdom of priests echoing Genesis. You’re going to be a kingdom of priests representing what life under my rule can be like.

And we know Israel failed, but ultimately Jesus was sent and he self-identified as one who is sent. He says, for this reason, I was sent to preach the gospel of the kingdom of God, the rule of God in our lives. This loving, generous, benevolent rule by our God who just loves us and wants us to be a part of the family and wants us to live on into eternity in doing the family business. Because in Revelation, it tells us that we then get to inherit all things, and we will reign with him.

I don’t know what that’s going to be like. I don’t speculate. I just know that if God says he wants us to be kings and priests with him, it goes all the way back to his original intent and it’s going to be good. I look forward to that.

I think you see if we think of God’s story and see God’s story in this way, we see a God who is sending and sent. And so, what does that mean for the church? It means that we exist as God’s called-out people to represent him, to be that royal kingly priesthood, as Peter puts it.

And therefore, we worship God—and I really appreciate in our church the way we’ve come up with these Love Avenues—but we worship God. We are building a family that is loving and enjoying each other. But we also understand that we exist not for ourselves, but to go forth, to be sent forth.

So that’d be my answer. What does the mission mean for the church? It helps us to understand the very nature and the purpose for the church. We’re not called up because we’re better or more special compared to others. We’re just privileged to join Jesus in his love, ongoing labor of love on this planet.

[00:14:33] Cara: Amen. Thank you, Charles. That is such a rich—just full of meaning and God’s story. It’s not just, mission is a thing that we think about or do, but it’s part of who God is and who we are purposed to be as the church. And I’m wondering because often we can think of mission as just something that we do maybe one time a year or one activity or maybe just something that we think about or intellectualize.

What do we risk when we do neglect missional rhythms that have depth and richness to them?

[00:15:16] Charles: Ah, Cara, we risk so much because first of all, we’re missing the fullness of who God is. And I love to tell that story because I think story rather than—there’s beauty in the traditional view of Creation, fall, redemption, new creation. You probably saw that as a structure behind the story I told. But rather than putting it in these sparse terms that are almost sound theologically out there, God has created us to be a storied people. We live out of stories that trigger our imagination.

Eden is not like Camelot. It is not some mythical, we think it might have happened, and we hope it happens again. It’s a reality that tells us the heart of God. And to answer your question, we are missing a piece of who God is.

He’s a Father who has created a family, and there is a Son who is that older brother that did not leave when our parents went prodigal, he stayed at home. But unlike the older brother in the parable, when he stayed at home, he totally identified with the Father. Because he is God like the Father. And when he did leave, like the youngest son, he came for a different reason. He came to rescue us. And so, we miss a dynamic of Jesus.

One of the things that has struck me is in Hebrews 3:1, we read that we get to partake in the very ministry of Jesus, and it’s described in two ways, the apostle and high priest. And we spend a lot of time on the high priest passage, which we need to, but we don’t really develop the apostle part, that Jesus is the original sent one.

There’s a whole dimension to Jesus that is missed if we neglect mission, that Jesus is the missionary. And then of course, we run the risk of just becoming a closed society, shutting ourselves off from the world, protecting ourselves. Or on the other hand, we become judgmental and look down on the rest of the world rather than seeing we’re a bunch of prodigals who have been privileged to know Christ and saved, and now we get to join Jesus in reaching out to our brother or our siblings who our prodigals still in the way we were.

I think that’s some of it, that our attitudes are malformed. Our hearts are also malformed if we miss the heart of God that is represented by mission and by Jesus as the missionary.

[00:17:50] Cara: Yeah. That’s really powerful because again, it comes back to, what is mission and it’s at the heart of who God is and who Jesus is as the sent one.

And that makes me think about another angle or experience of who we are as his followers. And what it means to experience and grow in who he is. When this podcast episode is released, it’s going to be, in the worship calendar, Ordinary Time. And it’s a time when we think about being discipled and being sent in disciple-making mission.

How are these missional rhythms that we’re talking about actually participating in this sent-ness that is at the heart of who God is? How is it connected with discipleship and being a disciple of Christ?

[00:18:54] Charles: What a great question, Cara. And you really put your finger right on it.

The whole concept of sent-ness, in other words, if it is true—and it certainly is—what Paul said in Relations 4:19, that until Christ is formed in us, if that is our quote unquote destination, in other words, that as Christ by his Spirit works in me and transforms me into his image, he’s discipling me, then I want to have an identity of being sent.

I would say three things in response to your question. There’s identity, there is a posture, and then there’s habits of mission. And let me explain what I mean. I think maybe I can tell it with a story. I read Michael Frost’s book on Surprise the World, The Habits of Highly Effective Missional People.

I read that about 5, 6 years ago. And I led a discipleship group and also had the opportunity to teach some of it to a congregation. And here’s the mistake I made. I went straight to the habits. Eat with people, bless people. And it never worked. None of us changed in any way. We got excited for three or four weeks and then, just like the dew before the rising sun, had evaporated.

And then about a year ago, Anthony Mullins, who is regional director for the Southeast. And I support Anthony in what he’s doing. He sent the book to me, and I’d forgotten about the book. And this time I read it all the way through. And at the end of it, Michael Frost says, these habits are intended to help us grow into an identity of sent-ness.

So, what I would say is I made a huge mistake. I just went straight for behavior. And we need to act from the very beginning. I’m not saying that. But unless we integrated into the idea that we are developing an identity of being sent, it will not last. And that’s where posture comes in. I see posture as an attitude, an orientation, out of becoming like Jesus and growing into sent-ness that we begin to have a posture that says, I want to get in out there and I want to share some of this wonderful news with others.

So missional rhythms, I think we have to do all three at the same time, but maybe at the beginning, stress that this is about affecting your identity.

And I’m teaching a class on missional living at GCS [Grace Communion Seminary] right now. And one of the things I’ve tried to help people to understand how we grow into the image of Christ is to say, let’s look at the “I am” statements in our lives. And there are a number, a cluster of “I am” statements that round out identity.

For example, you might say I am a woman. I would say I am a man. We’re beginning to identify ourselves. We might say, I am a citizen of the United States, and that’s our social location because it gives us a history, a sense of belonging, and it also gives us a sense of purpose.

And then we might talk about our profession, I’m a teacher, a truck driver, and we round it out And one of the challenges I’ve given the students is to say, do you include in your “I am” statements, and does it come from your heart: I am one sent? I am a fellow missionary with Jesus. There is an intentionality that says, when I take Michael Frost’s book and I start inviting people to eat with me, and I start seeking to bless people who maybe are not Christians, am I at the same time saying, Lord, help me?

So that it becomes, I lean into this, the posture of my heart is I want to be with Jesus as he ministers to people that I happen to meet and maybe I get to participate. Am I? And so, I’m trying to use the “I am” statements to add to that cluster, rounding out my identity. I am once sent.

So, I’m trying to use that language as a way of helping me and reinforcing what the action is doing. And then when you are out there sharing with people, Jesus becomes very evident. You see the way he works; you say something that you thought was a casual comment, and a few weeks later, somebody says that really helped me. And you [think], how do you remember me saying that? Must have been the Spirit.

To me, one of the rhythms for growing interpersonally is that we recognize the need for action. We need to go into action. We need to be involved in the Love Avenue, but we also need a posture, which is like Spiritual formation.

We need to be part of the Faith Avenue where we are living life on life with members of the family. But we’re looking for ways to invite people who are not yet aware of their membership in the family to join us. But at the same time, in our devotions and in our conversations, we’re saying, Lord, I am just grateful to be one sent. Can you help me to change my perspective of not understanding that I can?

It becomes natural, and obviously this will take time. You don’t take on something at a deep identity level overnight. But there’s some intentionality and a systematic approach, so that’s how I’m trying to approach that.

[00:24:10] Cara: Yes. And you know what I really like about how you’ve just talked about this—discipleship is about transformation. And it’s not just that behavior modification. So, if being sent, if in ordinary time, we’re thinking about who are we as disciples and who are we as being sent in disciple-making mission, it does come down to that identity. And is this coming out of growing in our identity in Christ or is it just something we think that we’re supposed to do to check something off a list? And you mentioned earlier too that part of the heart of mission is: what is God doing?

When it flows from identity, I’m sure that it would keep us more Christ-centered in that way, because it’s not about, I did this missional thing. But when it comes from our identity in Christ, it’s, oh, this is what God was up to. And I just had the privilege to participate, to come alongside.

Yeah, that’s excellent. That’s excellent. Yes. You did mention the Avenues as well. I think that it’s really important to think about how we practice the missional rhythms together as a church community. Because as you said, mission is the purpose of the church.

So, if mission is foundational to why the church exists and missional rhythms aren’t just an activity to do, but part of the heart of God and who he’s making us to be as his sent people, then they’re not just activities that are secluded to the Love Avenue. Missional rhythms show up across all aspects of ministry, all aspects of being the church.

I’m wondering what are some examples of what this can look like? Because the Love Avenue is where we do concentrate and give focused attention to missional rhythms. But what does it look like to pay attention to missional rhythms across all Avenues of ministry?

[00:26:30] Charles: I like that question. Before I answer it, could I just hit one thing in terms of growing into this image of sent-ness?

We need to recognize that the church does not have a mission, but rather God has a mission, and the church is the instrument of that mission. So, it’s more accurate to say God’s mission has a church. This is the expression in our world. In the way Israel was supposed to be a presence of God, of what a kingdom looks like, we as individuals and as a corporate body are God’s representatives. We are the only institution that Jesus says, I sign off on this. It’ll never die out because it is that important to God.

I put alongside the “I am” clusters, this idea that we need to allow the Spirit of God to help us to move from saying mission is optional; some people are missional, and some are not. No, every Christian should have an identity of being sent, which brings me back now to, to your question.

When I look at the three Avenues, I just thank God for it because having been involved with the transformation of our church from back when it began in 1995, as I recall, God has done a remarkable transformation of the cultural life of what was WCG and is now GCI.

We have come to know God, the who question, who is God has transformed us. We know God in a different way, and because of that, we know ourselves in a different way. And we see other people in a different way. And one of the things that has struck me with the students that are in the missional living class is just the energy and eagerness to go out on the Love Avenue.

To the question, how do we do it? Because we’re committed. That’s the posture, the leaning forward that I see in the 12 students. Which tells me that the idea to come up with these three Avenues is Holy Spirit saying, we now need a way to focus and channel this energy that has been building up in us because of the incredible transformation of our culture.

So, we now have a structure, and I love the name Avenues because what happens in avenues? Things flow. When I look at them, my first thought is every one of us wants to be an expression of, and a representative of the Hope Avenue because we all respond to our God with worship. So, we want our church to have a very good, solid leadership, Love Avenue group that is leading us. But all of us want to learn to better worship God. So that everybody, that’s for everybody.

The Faith Avenue is where we do life on life and really and truly a high priority. In my mind for us, really is to begin to foster and cultivate connect groups because they are a way of putting some structure within churches.

But everybody, even people involved in the Love Avenue need the Faith Avenue, and then I’m back to sent-ness. Everybody needs to be sent.

So, when you talk about rhythms, when I look at where we are as a denomination, even though mission is my passion, here’s the advice I would give to pastors and leadership teams, whether it’s a congregation or a fellowship group: I would say you’ve probably got your Hope Avenue. Chances are most groups have their Hope Avenue pretty well developed because we’ve spent most of our human resources, our energy, and our time in our worship services. We’re not where we need to be yet, but the RCL has just breathed a life into our congregations.

If I were a pastor, I would say in terms of rhythms, I would disconnect myself a bit. If I’ve been preaching four times a month, I would cut back to three. If I’ve been doing three, I’d cut back to two and empower some others to step up to free up time for me to put more focus on [the Faith Avenue]. And then we’re doing all three.

But it’s a matter of energy and time and effort. And put more effort into—and even though I’m missional—I would put it into the Faith Avenue, and little less energy into Love Avenue. Why? Because mission is an overflow of God’s love. We want to make sure that we as a people are being so infused with the worship, the learning to worship God in the Hope Avenue. We also want to be strengthened by the incredible disciple-making that happens in the Faith Avenue.

If I could just use throw out some random numbers just to make a point. If you have a 100% of energy that you can give to the church, because you’re a bivocational pastor, you’re a bivocational leadership team, you’ve got your family, you’ve got your own self-care, your own personal growth, as well as the job.

So, you have a certain number of hours a week to give to the church. I would say, okay, I would do enough to keep the Hope Avenue growing and developing, but most of my energy would go to Faith. But I’d also develop a few things on the Love Avenue at this stage in our history where we are. Because the stronger we are with Hope and Faith, the more effective we’re going to be in Love. And I’m not saying we don’t do any of the Love Avenue stuff! That would break my heart because it’s my passion.

But I’m thinking of two things that Jesus said in John 15:8. He says the Father is glorified with much fruit, but then in verse 60, he says, but the Father wants lasting fruit.

And one of the things I’ve learned from mistakes like with the Frost book, you want the fruits, or you jump in and just do the habits. But you’ve not laid the groundwork of the deep preparation, then it doesn’t last. And just thinking of where we are, to answer your question, if I were a leader of a fellowship group or a congregation, that’s some of the thought process I would have.

It’s a discernment not done in isolation. I would include my leadership team. I would even have town hall meetings to get a sense of what are the energy levels. There’s three things I think of in a congregation: what are the energy levels that people have? What is the critical mass? And what time do they have?

Have a town hall meeting and say, we want each of us to be people who are competent in the Hope, the Faith, and the Love. But how much energy do we have and how do we deploy ourselves in a way that we can grow? And from my perspective, and again, I want to stress, I’m a missional guy. But I think we need to add to what the strengths of our Hope Avenue are. Again, because I’m into sustainable growth, I would say for 18 months, I, as a pastor, want to put a lot of energy into the Faith Avenue. Get that really strong.

And we do some missional things along the way because there’s a lot of growth that comes from the doing—not neglecting that. But then once we’ve brought the Faith Avenue to a certain point of strength, then we really put some energy into Hope. And I think what will happen is leaders of congregations and fellowship groups, if you do that, I think you’re going to experience what I experience in this missional living class.

I have just been blown away on the level of inspiration by people who have come in with that posture. They’re leaning forward and they’re just saying show me how, show me how. That’s my take on it one, one person’s perspective.

[00:34:12] Cara: Yes. And as you were talking about even that preparedness, it made me think about if mission is at the heart of who God is and if mission is central to why the church even exists, and as part of who we’re being formed into as disciples as a sent people then, of course, discipleship Faith Avenue is part of the foundation of being sent. And I think about, even if you look at Jesus’s earthly ministry, he didn’t just pluck up the disciples and then be like, okay, now you’re sent.

But he spent that time with them. That would be akin to, in our structure, in our point in time, in history and GCI, of a connect group or something like that within the Faith Avenue. Because we do grow in time and transformation to know who God is. And to know our own identity before we have that overflow in being a sent people.

And like you said, that’s where we get that fruit that lasts, not the, oh, we’re so excited, but then two months later, we’re back to the same old, same old.

[00:35:40] Charles: Cara, could I add something? In other words, on behalf of the Love Avenue, I would say we also want to help people to recognize—and the phrase I use is—mission is done at the pace of life. I think sometimes we get intimidated, oh, we’ve got to do this, that, and the other. And again, all I have to offer is “x,” is most of us, what we experience.

Let me share my experience of how I view mission. As you mentioned, I was a mission developer, which meant that I was traveling to something like 20+ countries, helping our congregations and encouraging growth, et cetera. I’ve had a very wide public ministry where I was on mission with the Lord. Now that I’m retired, here’s what my primary mission is—and it is maybe in some ways even more fulfilling, and I think just as significant as whatever I did when I was full-time in public ministry— I now have two grandkids.

And my daughter, Annmarie, Michelle’s younger sister, lives near to us. When Addison was born, (she’s now six) we spent the first two or three years having Addison Monday to Friday, all day. And I remember how tired Carmen and I would get. We just marveled, and we’d look back and go, when we were in our 30s and 40s, we had jobs and we raised three kids, and now this one baby.

And I remember one night Carmen and I were lying in bed, and she just said, Charles, I love these kids, but I really am so exhausted, and so was I. And I had been reading in Luke 10 where Jesus sends the disciples out, part of his mentoring them to go on mission. And he says, wherever you go, tell people that the kingdom of God has been here.

And I think it was a Holy Spirit moment. I just put my hand on her, and she was laying in the bed next to me and I said, Carmen, kingdom work was done here today. And I just heard her breath out, and she says, that means it soul significant.

Because what’s behind my thought is—I’ve read upon attachment theory that all of us need to be solidly attached to our primary caregivers, especially in the first four years of life. And if that’s not there, then we end up with a lot of the insecurities that we have. And so, I’ve seen my role as, how can Carmen and I help Annie and Mike so that they’re not always exhausted, and therefore maybe cranky with their kids, so that they can have that attachment be positive.

So, we’ve invested. What I’m trying to say is that sent-ness includes going out, but sent-ness is also just doing the things at the pace of life. Are you a grandparent? Maybe you’re teaching your kids to bake. You tell them stuff like, do you know that in Jesus’ day, chances are his mom did the baking and you see the way you are scraping the bowl and eating the raw dough that I left, Jesus probably did that. You’re talking about the incarnation, but you’re bringing it into their lives.

That is some of the teaching I would do. If you go back to the scenario sketch, we’re not as emphasizing Love Avenue fully yet; the focus is on the faith. But it is that kind of perspective I would share with people, that you can be on mission. Talk about place-sharing, I’m place-sharing with my grandkids.

So now I “baby shark, baby shark” is like a hook in my ear. I’m aware of pirates and stuff in the cartoons. I got a repertoire of songs and of cartoons that are now part of my imagination because in sharing time with my grandkids, I’m connecting with them.

I’m on mission in my living room. And so, mission is at the pace of life. And I think if we can help people to see that this first steps to mission are not some giant, we got to go some far place. No, it starts in the home. Things that are ordinary to any grandparent can be made missional.

If we just find ways to just bring it back to Jesus, bring it back to the principles and teachings of the Bible. And I guess if I were to ask people to remember two things from this conversation, mission is what God is doing and we’re privileged to participate with him, and mission is done at the pace of life.

Can I look again at my life and see that maybe I’ve been more missional than I thought, but maybe I can make it even more by being intentional, just doing some of the stuff I do. But we don’t stop there. There’s not an excuse to not go out. It is just recognizing the fullness of what mission is.

But we certainly want to go out. And I would want to stress that we—even in that early 18 months that I sketched in this scenario—we want to do some things together going out, and individually going out. And then when we’ve got our Faith Avenues up to where we think it needs to be, we see that overflow, then we really go full-fledged.

Again, there are many ways to approach that, but that’s just one person’s perspective.

[00:40:53] Cara: And the beauty of this example that you’ve given, Charles, I think is there’s a holistic, kind of whole life encompassing-ness to mission. That’s part of what I meant by how do our missional rhythms, our being sent, extend beyond the Love Avenue?

It’s not just an activity or a program or a checklist or a calendar that’s confined to the activities of the Love Avenue ministries. It’s about our whole lives as they’re shaped by God. And this example that you’ve given with your grandchildren, I think is a beautiful example of what that looks like.

And then as we lean into and are transformed into being God-sent people, then corporately together as a church, we bring in that intentionality, right? And then we lean into and grow our Love Avenues and in specific ways, but it does come out of that overflow of who we are and who God has made us to be.

And your example even brings up for me this question that, when we think about rhythms and this year we’re talking a lot about healthy church rhythms, but when you look at nature, rhythms aren’t stagnant or very calculated. They’re often dynamic.

And when we think of specifically about missional rhythms and mission being what God is doing, God is a dynamic God. And I would think that missional rhythms, what mission looks like, can change from season to season. Maybe in some season, it looks like your public missional ministry, and in some season, it looks like baking with your granddaughter.

I wonder what would you say the discernment process can look like to discern what mission looks like in a particular season of life?

[00:43:09] Charles: I think the example I gave would be suggestive for individuals. That you look at where you are, what energy you have, what are the opportunities you have, and you adjust to the needs around you.

But thinking in terms of a congregation or a fellowship group, the discernment process to me is some kind of a town hall meeting, some kind of casual, informal conversations with people in your group, in the fellowship group or a congregation. Let’s talk about your margins. How much time do you have?

And even, how can you create more space in your schedule for something more missional. So, we’re allowing people to speak because somebody with small kids has different opportunities because of different priorities than somebody who might be an empty-nester. And so being in tune with where people in the congregation are and helping them to see how they can do mission at the pace of their life, where they’re at, is one level of discernment.

But then based on that, you step back, you zoom out and say, okay, let’s look at the aggregate of the congregation. We’ve got an older group, or we’ve got a younger group, we’ve got a mixed group. How can we now look at the needs of the community outside of us? And with our energy levels, the time that we have available, and our particular gifting, what are we going to do as we reach out? Are we going to maybe go to a fair held in our city? Are we going to have a Vacation Bible School? What can we do that would match a need in the community? You’re scanning the community and its needs, but you’re also very in tune with where the congregation is.

And then you develop rhythms that again, come back to what is not taking people too far out of their pace of life. Hopefully the love of Christ to be with him would allow them to adjust the pace of other areas of their lives and make space for more of this.

Those are some of the thoughts that I have on that.

[00:45:25] Cara: Yeah, that’s helpful. That’s really helpful.

[00:45:29] Charles: I guess what I would say is let’s not try to copy some other congregation. Let’s say, these are the people that Jesus has given me to serve, and here we are at this stage of our lives. A group that I’m very sensitive to because when I was working, we had to deal with some churches that became fellowship groups and then became very small.

I didn’t have the beauty of the Love, Faith and Hope Avenues. But when I look back, I realize that the Spirit allowed me to give some advice to some pastors. And the basic way I’d summarize it is if we are getting to a point where we have an elderly group, and they’re just down to maybe five or six people, I’ve seen groups that resisted the thought that maybe they needed to close, and it was very painful when they closed.

And I’ve also seen groups where in the past, the leader of the group said, how can I prepare people for the time if God allows us, because it’s his church, this particular expression, this particular congregation that’s now a fellowship group, to cease to exist. How can I prepare them for after? And one situation I remember was, there was one situation where there was an elderly lady at a nursing home who people would come to for advice. But their thought was, how can we maybe even spend a few dollars and give her money to buy some song books or some bibles so she can now—she’s already said people are coming to her.

She’s living that sent-ness of people around her in the nursing home are asking her for advice. She’s already got the makings of a Faith Avenue, in a sense, or at least the essence of the Faith Avenue and the essence of being sent. How can we now equip her, maybe there could be a little bit of the Hope Avenue that people maybe could sing together, buy an instrument if somebody could play.

So, there’s that thought process that here we are at a stage in life. We are elderly, we don’t have a lot of energy. Our group has, for whatever reasons, young people have moved out of the area or whatever. Our church is no longer viable, and we see that we may need to close the doors.

How can we equip and empower people to have the essence of Hope, Faith, and Love Avenues? So again, it’s back to your question. How do we deal with the dynamic fact that, that life is dynamic, and we only have so much energy, so much time, and the needs around us. How can we match those up based on where we are?

And so that’s, to me, a hopeful way of even viewing the fact that some of our fellowship groups are very small. Instead of petering out, we could say, Lord, we’re going to do all we can do for growth. But if you allow this to come to an end, we want to be able, wherever we go, to bring elements of worship, of fellowship, and of sent-ness, wherever we go.

It’s like we become an individual that represents what is behind these Avenues.

[00:48:41] Cara: Yes. And I appreciate what you said about it’s not just copy, I call it the copy and paste, right? You don’t just do what another church is doing because that’s not discerning what God is doing in your midst.

But to do that together as a community, whatever stage he has you in, whether it is a smaller aging group or a young growing group or something in between. What is God doing in your midst and how can you participate in that? That’s excellent.

And so, we are coming up towards the end of our time. I have a final question for you today. And it’s no small question. I’m wondering for those of us who are listening, what are some ways that we can get started developing missional rhythms of being God-sent people?

[00:49:30] Charles: I would say that I would have a couple of questions in mind as I travel through life. I would say, Jesus, what are you doing in this room as I enter it, can you show me? And could you let me know if you’re inviting me into it? Because some things are for us, and some are not.

And I got these questions from Henry Blackaby back in the 2000s, his book Experiencing God. I actually wrote them on a little 2×5 card. This is before cell phones. We’d probably put them in there now. But I would put them in my pocket. And called the use of the little 2×5 cards was like my training wheels. If I wanted to build a new habit, I would it jot down and pull them out, and I found that really helpful.

Jesus, what are you doing in this place right now here at work in the middle of maybe a conflict? What are you doing here? How can I participate in this in a way that you’d want me to? Or we are doing some blue skying, or we’re just at a coffee shop, what are you doing here?

And it’s not to preach. It’s to enter into a conversation and bring some comfort to people or maybe to enter into a conversation and enjoy people. Because remember, God’s heart revealed in Genesis is he wants people who just enjoy life together. And then join him in the family business. So, sometimes just putting people at ease might be all that is asked for.

For me, that has been ground zero of the beginning of this journey for me. Those two questions that I got from Henry Blackaby I would suggest that.

Then thirdly, I would say a willingness to do a sensitivity to the Spirit and a willingness to do something that you normally wouldn’t do. And that to me is a challenge. Am I willing to do that? Because very often, you find that when you do push through it—I don’t really want to do that, but you do it. Suddenly you see the glory of God.

To me, I am struck by Jesus in John 2, where a couple get married, and the wine runs out and Jesus turns water into wine. And what struck me, more than just defying physics, was the fact that in the scheme of things, running out of wine is an insignificant thing in the general scheme of life. But what I learned from that is for Jesus, if it’s significant to us, it’s significant to him. And I’ve tried to keep that in mind. Because he taught me a lesson. One day, I was reading it, and I go, if you’re not organized, in my mind I go, if you’re not organized enough to organize your own wedding, you don’t deserve a good wedding.

And the Holy Spirit nailed me for that. He says, you have a gift of organization, but don’t judge people by that. And so, the takeaway for me is, okay I’ve asked the question, what’s Jesus doing and how can I join him? What’s Jesus doing and how can I join him?

And okay, this is inconvenient, or it’s not my cup of tea. Do it, Charles. It’s what I try to tell myself because if it’s significant to us, Jesus would see it as significant. So those are three things I would suggest on a personal level.

[00:52:58] Cara: That is absolutely insightful. Particularly for me, what sticks out to me is that willingness to follow the lead of the Spirit, even if it’s not something you would normally do or want to do or be inclined to do. Because again, as we’re defining mission as what God is doing, it’s what God is doing, not what Cara wants to do in that moment.

So sometimes what it means is to do something that Cara wouldn’t do in that moment or wouldn’t want to do. Yeah. That’s excellent.

[00:53:35] Charles: Yep. That’s what it is.

[00:53:39] Cara: And challenging. But that’s excellent even on a practical level to think about in the real life sometimes taking that step mission means doing something I wouldn’t really want to do on my own.

That’s good.

[00:53:53] Charles: And the other lesson I’ve got is you cannot let the gifts that God gives you overly-shape your life because then you become judgmental or prideful or whatever.

[00:54:06] Cara: Yeah, that’s a good word. Charles, I appreciate your time so much. This has been an incredibly rich conversation about mission, and I know that we are really just scratching the surface here. I thank you so much for sharing your insights and your experiences with us today, and I pray for our listeners that this helps us to follow God’s leading to grow as his sent people.

But before I let you go today, I’ve got some fun questions for you. You can answer first thing that comes to mind, and we’re just going to have a little bit of fun with it.

You ready for this part of our episode today? All right. This one I think is going to be especially fun for you. What is your favorite book genre?

[00:55:00] Charles: Book genre. I love fantasy novels. The type of fantasy that is either space, like sci-fi, or even historical novels with dragons and stuff.

[00:55:11] Cara: Ah, yeah. I like that. What is your favorite meal to cook?

[00:55:19] Charles: Oh, I don’t do a lot of cooking, but I certainly like to do a barbecue chicken. Another one I like is an almond-crusted chicken. And you can tell chicken is my favorite.

[00:55:29] Cara: Yes. That sounds really good though.

Okay. If you have an unlimited supply of one thing, if you could have an unlimited supply of one thing for the rest of your life, what would it be?

[00:55:43] Charles: Unlimited supply. Probably books.

[00:55:46] Cara: Ah, yes. I’m with you on that one. I’m with you there. If you could live anywhere in the world for one year, where would it be?

[00:55:56] Charles: Oh, I would love to live in Europe and just go on those river cruises and just visit all the historical sites.

[00:56:02] Cara: Oh, yes. That sounds wonderful. All right. If you, Charles, had your own late night talk show, who would you invite as your first guest?

[00:56:12] Charles: Probably Michael Jordan.

[00:56:15] Cara: Oh, fun. Okay. All right. What is your favorite activity to do with the grandkids?

[00:56:24] Charles: Oh, man. We have a slack line around the back, and they’re very athletic, so to see them turning into little monkeys climbing and falling. I just love that.

[00:56:33] Cara: That’s so fun. Oh, that’s excellent. All right, and last question. If you have to sing karaoke, what song do you pick?

[00:56:42] Charles: Lord have mercy on the people listening to me. I do not have a singing voice.

[00:56:50] Cara: So, you don’t sing karaoke? That’s the song that you pick.

[00:56:55] Charles: When I went to Jamaica, starting the church, I had to do everything. I had to lead worship songs, and I basically told the PA crew, as soon as I announced the number, just turn off the mic. [PA is the abbreviation for public address, meaning amplified sound system.]

[00:57:08] Cara: Let the people take it. Oh, that’s too funny.

Oh, thank you so much for joining us today, Charles. It’s been a good time. It is our practice with the GC Podcast to end our show with prayer. Would you be willing to pray for our churches, our pastors, and ministry leaders in GCI?

[00:57:32] Charles: Yes, indeed. It would be my pleasure.

Father, we just want to thank you that above all, we see that you are Fathering us. Thank you for being our Father. Jesus, thank you for being that older brother. And I never forget the words that you said to Mary after your resurrection, before your ascension, go and tell the brothers. I go to my God and your God. I go to my Father and your Father. You’re the sibling that is regathering the family, bringing all of us prodigals back into the fold. Thank you for that, Jesus.

Holy Spirit, we thank you that you are the one who has been sent forth, and you live in the likes of us. And even though we grieve you, you never leave us. You never forsake us. You equip us. You love on us. You constantly remind us that we are the children of God. Thank you, Father, Son, and Spirit.

I want to pray, Father, that your continued blessing will just pour out upon us in GCI. That indeed, you would increase our capacity to receive and to appreciate and to live out of the fact that the love of God, your love, has already been shared abroad. It’s flowing into our hearts. Give us the grace to access that love more fully, to get into the flow that we can be people who, in the way we live, each of us represent the essence of the Hope, Faith, and Love Avenues, the worship, the fellowship of loving like family and also the loving by going out.

May that become more and more reality. May you bless us in all of that, Lord, and may we always remember that mission is what you do, and you’ve asked us to participate in mission at the pace of our lives, lives that have been reoriented because we know the nature and the purpose for which we’ve been called as a church.

So we adjust the way we live and make a priority of worshiping you, of enjoying each other as family members, and of reaching out with your love, to invite others to accept your reign in their lives, your loving reign, that they too can be translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. May we see many people brought to you, Jesus, as you continue to seek and save the lost.

We thank you and praise you. We ask a blessing on Cara and on Reuel as he does the technical part of this podcast. May this podcast be used to bless many people and the ones who listen to it, go forth to bear much fruit, lasting fruit.

And we pray this Father in the precious and powerful name of Jesus. Amen.

[01:00:21] Cara: Amen. Thank you so much, Charles, and until next time folks, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the GC Podcast. We hope you have found value in it to become a healthier leader. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic, or if there is someone who you think we should interview, email us at info@gci.org. Remember, Healthy Churches start with healthy leaders; invest in yourself and your leaders.

The post Missional Rhythms w/ Charles Fleming first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Worship Calendar w/ Michelle Fleming

Welcome to the GC Podcast. A podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to the latest episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today I am so happy to interview Michelle Fleming. Michelle is the Hope Avenue Champion in the Charlotte, North Carolina church plant and the GCI Communications and Media Director. When she’s off the clock, she spends her time reading, puzzling, and exploring and enjoying the outdoors.

She has always been drawn to liturgy and finds a comfort in thinking seasonally. So, I’m really excited about what she has to share with us today. Thanks for joining us, Michelle.

Michelle: Thanks for having me, Cara.

Cara: We are going to be talking about the worship calendar and this episode is going to be released during the Easter season in the worship calendar.

So, before we really dive in, I’m wondering what is one of your favorite practices for the Easter season?

[00:01:09] Michelle: Even in preparing for this, I have all these big ideas because I love liturgy and the worship encounter so much. And I know you’re asking about Easter, but I can’t think about Easter without thinking about Easter preparation or the Lent season, because really as the title that we use in GCI mentions, we are preparing for Easter. And so, a practice that I have in the season of Easter Prep is naming our deaths. Because in that season, we are modeling Jesus’ 40 days in the desert, and we are remembering our need for a Savior.

We’re naming the things that we turn to for comfort, for safety, for security instead of turning to him. And so, in that season, it’s been a practice for a few years to just name the things that I need to let go of, name the things that are no longer serving me.

And then in the Easter season—which also is not just a day. They’re actually 40 days between Easter Sunday and the Ascension. And I think it’s because Jesus knew his disciples needed to grieve not having him on earth. They needed time to process the whole idea of what was happening. And then he ascended into new life. And so, we need to be in a season of Easter too where we’re naming the births.

I think sometimes in our spiritual lives we pretend that we want resuscitation instead of resurrection. We want to bring back to life things that have served us before that are no longer working. But the Christian life, being a follower of Christ, we are letting go of the old and embracing the new.

And in our humanity, Jesus answers that and gives us space to do that. And so, in the Easter season, for the past few years, it’s a prayerful posture because I’m not the one manifesting this new life. I’m paying attention. I’m saying, okay, this is what I’ve spent time letting go of. This is what I’m grieving, letting go. God, what are you growing?

What are the seeds of new life that you’re planting in my life, in my community, and in my relationships as well? It’s an openness to saying, okay, we are not a people who are mourning; we are people who are celebrating. But we are also limited. And it takes us time to process that. That’s a long answer, but it is my favorite practice for Easter is just claiming that new life.

[00:03:23] Cara: Yeah. No, that’s beautiful. And it’s a really powerful image that you give resuscitation versus resurrection. I’m going to hold onto that.

[00:03:32] Michelle: Yeah. And sometimes it’s because it’s all we’ve known. Once we want that resuscitation because it’s comfortable, it’s familiar.

As we know who our God is, he does more than we can ask or imagine. We just have to ask for a holy imagination to want those things too. Because in our flesh we don’t always want those things.

[00:03:53] Cara: Yes. That’s a great example of how the worship calendar can be formative in our journeys of discipleship. And as we talk about the worship calendar today, I want to come back to even the basics. What is a worship calendar? And then specifically can you talk to us a little bit about the GCI worship calendar?

[00:04:18] Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. I think before we talk about the GCI worship calendar, we have to think about, why a calendar in the first place?

And that is something that humans have always done. It’s not just a western thing. It’s not just a modern thing. We have had calendars, we mark seasons, and I think it’s because we are people who look for patterns. We look for routine, we look for those rhythms. So, whether we explicitly say that we have a liturgical calendar or worship calendar, we have one.

And we also are drawn into culture as people too. So, we have a cultural calendar as well, which I think is equally as important to think about when we are talking about our formation, because God has called us to be a people in this time and place, and we have to be aware of the time and place that we’re in.

We also have to be intentional that we’re not just following the liturgy and being formed by the culture around us. But it’s a both / and. We have to pay attention to both. For example—I tried to think of a non-American example, but that’s where I’ve lived most of my life. And we have a calendar where we think about New Year’s celebrations, 4th of July, Thanksgiving. Those are things that form us as a people to our culture.

And in GCI, we have been following for the past, I’d say, four or five years, we’ve been really intentional about laying out the worship calendar, which follows the liturgical seasons. And I think we do that because the worship calendar forms us around the full story of who Jesus is. We can be biased and drawn to certain seasons. I’m someone who [inaudible] doesn’t want to always pay attention to the negative. I might just live in Easter forever. Let’s just claim this new life. But that’s not the full story of who our God is and what he’s been doing in his people.

And so, the anchors of the gospel story are Christmas and Easter, but those are a pretty big deal. We can’t just celebrate those for two out of 365 days, and say we’re being formed into the image of Christ.

And so, there the seasons build on each other. They transition. I could go through a whole thing, so I don’t want to go through the whole calendar. We’ll drop in the show notes an example of what the calendar looks like, but it’s important to think about the seasons that come before those big days.

So, in Easter Preparation, like we talked about in the beginning, that prepares us for Easter and it gets us ready for Resurrection Sunday, which is a day that changed human history. So, I think it’s pretty important that we don’t just spend 90 minutes in church thinking about that. But that we’re intentional in our worship services, in our discipleship groups, even in how we’re engaging with our culture, in thinking about, what is God doing? How is God moving in this season of the calendar? And that helps us live out our faith in our daily lives, because we are not a people who are only in our brains. And we’re not transformed by just the information we receive.

We have a faith that we live out. And the Holy Spirit’s in us, helping us participate in that. And if we’re following the worship calendar, it helps us remember that Jesus is at the center of his story, that he moved history to draw humanity to himself. And the seasons of Epiphany and Ordinary Time are the seasons of his earthly ministry, of the building of his church, that he invites us to do with him. And the biggest chunk of the calendar is Ordinary Time. And I think that’s intentional. That’s on purpose because that’s what we’re doing until his ultimate return.

And so, I don’t know if I said everything I wanted to say about the calendar, but I think big picture, we follow the calendar to be formed more into the fullness of the image of Christ, to have the full understanding of who God is. And it’s a mystery. So, it’s not something we can do one year, and we’re like, okay now I understand resurrection life; I’m holy forever.

But we go deeper every year in understanding. And what’s happening in our circumstances, what’s happening in our culture, God is present and moving and active in that too.

[00:08:30] Cara: Yes. And I love this idea of the worship calendar helps us remember and to tell and bear witness to the whole story of who God is. I think that’s really important. And then what you said, how it impacts all aspects of how we live an embodied life, not just oh what we think we know, but even how we live, how we engage with our culture, our neighborhoods, the people that we encounter in our lives. I think that’s a really beautiful thing that just the calendar, how we mark time, if it can be centered around Christ, that’s a really cool thing.

[00:09:12] Michelle: I kind of like the idea of orienting our lives around Christ and who he is. And I’m glad you said the word remember, because I think that’s something—we are forgetful people, like we see that in the story of Israel in the Old Testament. We constantly need to be reminded of how constant and faithful God is. And the calendar helps us do that.

[00:09:32] Cara: Yes. Amen. And so that leads me to the next question that I had for you. How can our worship calendar help us in building healthy church rhythms?

[00:09:46] Michelle: Like I said before, I think it really has to be a combination of the worship calendar, but also the cultural context that you’re in.

I think it can help us even in the biases of ministries that we are bended towards. I think especially if you’ve been a follower of Christ for a long time, we just want to come together and worship. But we’re also sent.

So, I think about Ordinary Time in the northern hemisphere. It aligns really well with the summer. And one way that it can help with healthy church rhythms is in Ordinary Time, we’re talking about building the church, we’re talking about mission. We’re talking about evangelism. That’s a perfect time, also culturally, where people are not in school; they’re not as busy. It’s a great time to have events where people want to be outside in a lot of places.

So, you tie those things together to think about not just the full story of who God is, but our full calling as Christians too. And I think that’s the benefit of the Avenues, which we’re not getting deep into in this podcast, but I think that’s why we use both frameworks.

Because God is creative. I believe in being creative. But I also think we are limited, and if we don’t work within frameworks, we’re going to be put into what we are drawn to. And that’s not necessarily how the Spirit is always calling us for. In my experience, he often pulls me out of my comfort zone and reveals new ways of thinking and being. And I think working within a framework where you can contextualize and be creative, allows you to have the unity among your people, but also the ability to think in new ways, to not get stuck in a rut or be in cruise control.

[00:11:33] Cara: Yeah. And the way that you connected the story of Christ to how we participate in it, in our rhythms as a church, I think that’s really important because it’s connecting how we’re living as disciples to who God is. And so, holding those two things together, the cultural calendar and then the worship calendar, helps us to do that because we say, oh, it’s Ordinary Time. So, this is part of the story of Christ, that means it’s part of who he is making us to be too, so we should live or we’re invited to live this aspect of who he is instead of just thinking about this one aspect of who Christ is as a one-dimensional way of being Christ-like.

[00:12:16] Michelle: Yes. And I think it’s also important too, to look for where it naturally overlaps. It’s something I’ve been thinking a lot about in our current culture because in the States, it’s a claim that this is a Christian nation and a majority of people have been followers of Christ. And there is that influence, but you don’t see that in the daily rhythms. If you look 40, 50 years ago, things weren’t open on Sunday. But now that’s when a lot of us get stuff done.

So, we don’t have that rhythm of following what a church life calendar would follow. But we still do have Christmas and Easter. And so, I think it is important to think about maybe before Easter, having some missional small groups, building relationships, exposing people to experience who Christ is. And then those people are probably most likely to come on an Easter Sunday.

So, thinking of even okay, where are the handles we can hold onto where there still is overlap. And in other places there might not be any overlap. And that’s something you have to think about. But then I think of regions like Africa, or even in the Philippines, where those are places where their cultural contexts are more Christian. They’re going to have even more overlap that they can benefit from.

[00:13:30] Cara: Yeah. No, that’s this is rich. I think I can see in this a lot of examples of how the worship calendar can help us to build in rhythms as a healthy church, rhythms that kind of center on the life of Christ and who he is in our midst and what he’s up to.

So, what would you say to those of us who might be a little bit concerned? Because you mentioned, there’s a creativity to this too but we also have a framework that is helpful to work within. So, for those of us who might be concerned that the worship calendar might be constrictive or might be too rigid or prescriptive, maybe even too traditional or repetitive, what words of encouragement would you give to us?

[00:14:18] Michelle: Yeah, I think I would say, you don’t have to decide to do the whole calendar all at once. I think ease your way in and ease your way in with the days or the celebrations that would match your cultural context. I’ve seen more and more churches celebrating Advent, which I don’t think was true 10 or 20 years ago, but that I think is an easy entry point to say, okay, we are preparing for the Incarnation. And there were hundreds of years when between the prophecy of Jesus coming and Jesus’ actual arrival. And can we just be like, okay, it’s Christmas, and then we put up a tree, and we’re celebrating. But can you build in some advent practices into your congregation?

Also, I think the idea that like, okay, well then let’s do an Advent candle lighting. Just because you’re following the calendar, doesn’t mean you have to do the, maybe, more traditional ways of celebrating it? I think there is beauty in the symbolism of a lot of the traditional celebrations, but I think the fruit of the calendar is from understanding how God is moving in that season.

So, if you can capture, okay, how is Jesus being revealed in this season of the calendar? How can we express that in our congregation, in our Sunday services, in our Faith Avenue discipleship groups, in how we engage with our neighbors? I think you’re starting to live out the calendar in ways that could be more creative and innovative.

It doesn’t have to be this restrictive thing of, okay, it’s this season and this is how you celebrate this season. It’s about getting to the heart of it, about how we’re being formed in who God is and who he’s revealing himself to be.

[00:16:08] Cara: And so, there’s still a lot of room to be responsive and discerning and expressive based on what God’s doing. So, there’s a lot of room to play even within this rhythm of the worship calendar.

[00:16:21] Michelle: Yeah. And I think just in my experience as a Hope Avenue champion—which has been for about a year—I think it can even keep us from getting into that cruise control and going stale. I think we can actually be more rigid in not following a calendar because life gets busy, and we just end up doing the same things all the time.

And so, our team comes together before each season begins, and we talk about: what does the season mean? What’s happening in our community right now? What does our congregation need? And we change the order of service to reflect that. And I think it’s helped us grow closer together as a community, grow deeper in who our experience of who God is, because we’re being intentional, we’re being prayerful.

I could go on—and I think it’s also the beauty of being team-based. I hate to keep going back there. But you know, as the Hope Avenue champion, I could come up with a theme, and I could email it out. And I could ask the worship leader to send me some songs that align with that theme. But when we sit, and we share a meal, and we talk about it, and we were prayerful before we even come together, there’s ideas that come up that I don’t think any of us could come up with by ourselves. But the Spirit is moving in and among us and is revealing to us what we need as a congregation.

[00:17:33] Cara: Yes. No, that is a really beautiful point about the corporateness, too, that the worship calendar leads us to celebrate with. I love that.

You’ve already talked a little bit about how when we follow the worship calendar and organize our activities and rhythms around the life of Christ, that it gives us kind of a focus. What is God doing at this time, in this season?

And I’m wondering, can you speak a little bit more to what that means as we collaborate across the ministry Avenues? How does organizing church rhythms across or around the worship calendar contribute to a healthy and well-integrated church ministry?

[00:18:25] Michelle: Yeah, I think I can give you an example based on what I was talking about before, how we come together and we brainstorm what’s going to happen for this season, but how that even builds out, outside of the Hope Avenue team, into our other team meetings. And how we are, I guess, being transformed together.

So, in Epiphany, the season of Epiphany is the good news that Jesus came for everybody—not just for one group of people. And so, when we were brainstorming, okay, what does this mean for our worship services? We decided to take our intercessory prayer time and make that dedicated to praying for a specific group of people. And because we want to be a neighborhood church, and we are a church plant, and so we’re exploring our neighborhood, a lot of our prayer time in church, corporate prayer time—which is something I think that’s being lost in a lot of cultures where faith is not necessarily at the center of the culture—was dedicated to praying for our neighbors and praying for our schools, and praying for our government leaders and just really asking God to give us a heart for these people, a heart for our neighbors, to have the eyes to see them how he sees them.

Epiphany leads to Easter Preparation, which leads to Easter, and so then a few weeks later, we’re talking about missional small groups, and we want to launch several of those within the Epiphany and Easter Prep season so that when we get to Easter, we’ve made some connections so you can then be invited to an Easter service. And then even within the different seasons of the calendar, we often will create a guide, which draws on the Faith Avenue. This is how you can participate in this posture of worship and in this way of understanding who God is outside of the Sunday service.

And so, I think in that way, you can see that all of the Avenues are working together for the fullness of the story of the gospel. But also, for the fullness of experiencing participation in ministry with Christ.

[00:20:25] Cara: Yeah. And so, the worship calendar and the life of Christ and his present ministry becomes that unifying thread between all the ministry Avenues, so that they can actually collaborate well, and not become their own little silos, because they’re being united and telling the story of who God is and united in inviting into participation in that ongoing story and ministry of Christ. That’s beautiful.

[00:20:53] Michelle: Yeah. And we’re meditating on who God is in the same kind of ways. We’re experiencing him in similar ways, and so we’re being formed more and more like him, in those ways together, as a people.

[00:21:02] Cara: Yes. No that’s really wonderful. And then I think even like on the practical level, then when you’re able to collaborate like that. And you have a kind of a framework that you’re working with, and you can agree upon. Then it makes it a little bit easier to think about, oh, what does—we talk a lot about, follow up events, right? Or what comes next? How do we connect people in, after this thing or this on-ramp, this connection point? If we are able to collaborate around an organizing framework, we have a little bit of a pathway to figure out, what’s the next step? How do we go from here?

[00:21:45] Michelle: Yeah, it’s like implicit synergy.

[00:21:46] Cara: Yes. No, this is excellent. So, I we’ve talked a lot about different aspects of the worship calendar, and for some of us it’s a new thing to put into practice the worship calendar, to embody the rhythms of the worship calendar, and to organize the life rhythms of the church around the worship calendar.

What advice do you have for those of us who are getting started using the GCI worship calendar?

[00:22:19] Michelle: I think my advice would be to, like I said before, begin with what matches your cultural context and what your congregation would be familiar with or comfortable with. And I think also too, the idea of understanding the themes for every season, which I haven’t really said yet, so maybe I can go into that a little bit.

So, for example, in Advent, Advent is the celebration of the coming of Christ. We know that he’s come, but it’s a both / and because we’re also waiting for him to come again. And culturally, we skip over that. And it’s—at least in America—it’s Thanksgiving and then Christmas.

And so, I think the posture, I would say is a slowing of remembering what it means to wait, that we’re waiting on Christ. We’re waiting on our Savior. That is our one true hope. He is our one true hope.

And some practices that I’ve adopted even this year was someone—I receive their blog; I don’t even remember their name—but they don’t decorate for Christmas all in one day. Every Friday or Saturday they get their house a little fancier. They slow-build the celebration. And I think so much of this life is waiting, but we separate that from our spiritual life.

We create idols of what we’re waiting for. I’m waiting for that promotion. I’m waiting for that next step in my relationship. I’m waiting for all these different things, but really we’re waiting on Christ to return and make all things well. And so, if we can build into our everyday lives the idea and advent that he’s coming. He’s coming again, and we’re waiting. And we know he’s been faithful. He’s come before.

I think that kind of can form us and prepare us to experience a deeper Christmas celebration. Which isn’t also just one day, that’s 12 days. So, in Christmas, we can soak in that celebration of who he is, that we do have a Savior that entered our world. And I think that’s one time in the year where I spend probably the most time just in Scripture reading about the prophecy of his coming and then reading the story of his arrival and then what that meant.

Then in Easter Prep, I know people often think of that as fasting, but it’s actually fasting from idols and feasting on Christ. And so that is a shift I’ve made recently too, of okay yeah, I’m going to fast during the week from the comfort and the ease that I seek instead of seeking Jesus. But then on Sundays, I’m going to feast on him. I’m going to go to church, and then I’m going to be outside in nature, and I’m just going to soak in all the ways that I experience him in the already, but not yet.

And then in Easter it’s a pretty big deal to conquer the grave, I think. And so that’s a time of worship and gratitude and acknowledgement that he’s continuing to draw us to himself. That he is going to come again and make all things well, and to ask for the eyes to see the seeds of that, of that fruit in your life now.

And Ordinary Time, as we’ve talked about, is a great time for place-sharing, for remembering. We’ve spent all this time in the calendar remembering the story of who Jesus is. Now we’re remembering that we’re invited to participate in it, so to listen to other people’s stories, to share our stories when appropriate. Let’s start with listening. But sometimes our stories can be encouraging to other people too.

So that’s a great time for missional connect groups because also to people travel, it might not be the time to do an in-depth study. But it’s time to think about, okay, what are these postures? How can these postures be lived out in our lives personally, but in our lives corporately as the church?

[00:26:21] Cara: No, that’s excellent advice. And for those of our listeners who are wondering where they can get even more information, or—you just went through the quick one liner of what each of the seasons are—but for those of our listeners who are interested in getting some more information about what these seasons mean as they get started, where can they find that information?

[00:26:47] Michelle: We will put the calendar in the show notes. And then also in Equipper, (which is our monthly ezine) for every season of the calendar, we address what that season means, but then we also have an article on spiritual practices for that season, that kind of gets to some of these things of what you can do practically individually and as a congregation.

[00:27:07] Cara: Yeah. So as y’all get started, we don’t have to get started alone. We’re doing this together, and that’s part of the beauty of the worship calendar, too. It’s not just us in GCI, but followers of Christ all around the world are united in telling and remembering the story of Christ.

So y’all don’t have to do it alone. We’ve got some resources for you.

[00:27:29] Michelle: Yes. And I want to say again, that you don’t have to do it all at once. If you just are like, this is a lot to take in. Let’s just start with our Hope Avenue. Let’s just think thematically for this season, let’s think about it, what it means. And then move from there.

You don’t have to build it all in one day, but I do really see so much fruit in it, in my life personally and in the life of the church.

[00:27:50] Cara: Absolutely. Michelle, we’re coming up to the end of our time, so I just have one more question for you. What final words do you have for our listeners here today?

[00:28:00] Michelle: I’m filled with gratitude thinking about our listeners. Thinking about not just in the cultural context that I know or I’m familiar with, but in all different kind of cultural contexts, we’re declaring the glory of who God is. We’re revealing his love for the whole world for people. And so, I feel unity and affinity and I just encourage you to share your stories with us too. I would love to hear different ways that you are celebrating and maybe engaging with the calendar in a way I haven’t thought of.

I think, just like you said, remember we’re in this together. And it’s such a good story to tell. Let’s be proclaimers of the good news.

[00:28:50] Cara: Amen. Amen. That was a wonderful bundle of insights that you shared. Michelle, I’m so thankful for you joining us. I know that the worship calendar is something that you’re really passionate about.

But before I let you go, we have our fun segment where I’m going to ask you—I know, your favorite thing—a bunch of random questions that you don’t even know what they are, and you’re going to have to tell me the first thing that comes to mind. So, if you’re ready for the fun…

Michelle: I’m ready.

Cara: Here we go. All right. First question. What have you completed on your bucket list?

Michelle: Oh! One of my bucket lists is to see all the US National Parks. And last year I ran a half marathon through Lake Powell and that was really, really cool.

And so that’s the most recent thing I’ve crossed off of that bucket list. And it was beautiful to take in. I ran between two different states in those 13.1 miles and it’s so interesting. It’s a desert area, so it’s so different than anywhere I’ve ever lived.

But to take in the beauty of that because I love lush, green, beach mountains. But just to take in canyons and valleys and just think about the metaphors of that’s the depth of God’s love for us. It’s like these canyons that we’re running through and how life can even be sustained in what seems like such a dry place.

I don’t know. It’s really cool to take in.

Cara: Yeah. No, that is cool. That’s awesome. Speaking of running though, would you rather be able to run a 100 miles an hour or fly at 10 miles an hour?

Michelle: I’m not patient, so I’d rather run 100 miles an hour. Let me get where I’m going.

Cara: It’s about the speed, not the mode. If you could invent a holiday, what would it be?

Michelle: Oh I think my introvert takes over and it would just be like a day of silence. Everyone just pause. Let’s just be in solitude. Let’s just rest. Yeah, that sounds really lovely to me. In whatever way you want to, just don’t speak or engage because I don’t want to miss out on anything, but I also would just really some time for myself.

Cara: It’s for you to have time alone without any FOMO [fear of missing out]. That’s excellent. All right. Final question. Would you go on an expedition to Mars?

Michelle: In heaven, in my renewed body without all my anxiety, fear of claustrophobia, with a mind that is not living in fear…

Cara: I’m going to take that as a no.

Michelle: Would I? If I’d already died, yes. Would I on this side of heaven? Probably not. I think my heart would explode.

Cara: Yeah. No, me either. Oh, we are on the same page for that one. Let me tell you.

I really appreciate you joining us today. As we wrap up, it’s our practice to end our show with prayer, and so could you say a prayer for our churches and pastors, ministry leaders, and members in GCI?

[00:33:08] Michelle: Absolutely.

God, we just praise you for being a God who so relentlessly pursues us with your love, a God who is constant, who is faithful, whom we know we can trust. You’re just so vast that we can’t wrap our minds around who you are.

But in your grace and mercy, you slowly reveal yourself to us. You do it in the fullness of your time so that we can keep up in our limited capacity. You move at the pace of your love and our lives. And you don’t do it just for us individually, you do it for us corporately. So, we thank you for the beautiful church that you have established, a church that declares that you are near, that you are love and that there’s hope.

And so we pray for, specifically, our congregations around the world, that we will be churches who declare those things to the people around us. That we will be churches who embody those things to the people around us. And that we will be a people who point to you, who point to your glory and whose fragrance is among us.

We know that is a beautiful thing, but it can also be overwhelming in the day-to-day. So, I pray for our members, for our ministry leaders, for our pastors who’ve answered the calling of shepherding your people. I pray just for a movement of your Spirit, for encouragement, for inspiration, for new ways of doing ministry in this ever-changing world.

We thank you that we see the fruit of your life, of you in their lives. And so, we trust, and we pray, knowing that you are moving for our good, and we pray that we will move for your glory. We pray all these things in your holy name. Amen.

Cara: Amen. All right folks, until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the GC Podcast. We hope you have found value in it to become a healthier leader. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic, or if there is someone who you think we should interview, email us at info@gci.org. Remember, Healthy Churches start with healthy leaders; invest in yourself and your leaders.

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Why Rhythms? w/ Afrika Mills

Welcome to the GC Podcast. A podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today I am overjoyed to interview Afrika Afeni Mills. Afrika is part of the leadership team for a GCI church plant in Charlotte, North Carolina. Thanks much for joining us today, Afrika.

Afrika: Thank you for having me, Cara. I’m excited about today’s conversation.

Cara: Yes, it’s going to be a good one. We’re going to be talking about rhythms. And the power of rhythms. And what they can do for our development as Healthy Churches.

But before we jump in, I want to know what is one of your favorite rhythms. It could be any kind of rhythm. What’s your favorite?

[00:55] Afrika: I think right now I’ve been really leaning into learning more about different types of prayer rhythms. I feel like there’s such a big world that I didn’t know about before, and I’m really excited about learning about all the different ways that we can connect with God in prayer.

[01:13] Cara: Yeah. Oh, that’s awesome. I love that. Thanks for sharing. And rhythms do come in many different forms. We see rhythms everywhere, even in nature, in our structures.

And when we talk about developing Healthy Church rhythms, let’s just start at the basics. How would you describe a rhythm and what are some of the qualities and characteristics that you would say a rhythm has?

[01:41] Afrika: Yeah, and I was thinking it’s interesting that you just said what you said, because I was thinking in preparation for our conversation about where I notice rhythms. And I feel like God has many rhythms. Like you were talking about—it’s seasonal rhythms. And we have sleeping rhythms and cardiac rhythms and or even like just gestational rhythms and like the process development of life.

And for me, when I think about rhythms, some of the qualities, it feels like it’s not always the same. there are some times where there are certain features. If we think about seasons, for example, right? There are certain things we come to expect when it comes to winter.

It’s a different experience now that I live in Charlotte than when we lived in Massachusetts. But winter brings a certain type of flow, like it tends usually colder. And there’s not as many leaves on the trees. But then we think about moving into spring and starting to see things bud and grow and getting really to enjoy the fruits of things in the summertime.

And then even in fall when things began to die, it’s actually a beautiful experience because the colors are so gorgeous. And we’re preparing to enter into another cycle of those rhythms.

I think that rhythms have some common elements, but then they also have some things that are different, but that they feed one another, or they connect with one another. And I think about that same thing too, when it comes to our relationship with God and with one another, right? It doesn’t have to look the same all the time, but there’s so much richness in the different parts of the different rhythms that we lean into.

[03:16] Cara: Yeah. That’s excellent. And I love how you describe that balance of there’s some things that are common and maybe, a pattern or however I might think of that. But then things that are different too. And one of the images that comes to mind for me when I think of rhythms are ocean waves.

There’s a little bit of this push and pull of rhythms. But waves aren’t always the same strength, same height, same anything. But it is still a rhythm, this push and pull.

[03:46] Afrika: And they each have their own types of beauty. And that’s something I used to—we’ll probably get into this more as we talk more. But I think I’ve also thought in terms of like a good / bad binary.

Where it’s just okay, winter’s bad, right? Winter’s bad, it’s cold, everything’s dead, right? You don’t really want to go outside, unless you really enjoy that weather. But it’s not bad. It’s just different.

You have a different flow and an experience with that, but actually pretty cool things are happening in the winter. That cold and how it sucks ceiling in the soil and the things that are happening that we might not be able to see. I feel like it has such alignment to what happens in our spiritual lives. We may not see exactly what’s happening, but something is happening.

[04:31] Cara: Yeah. Oh, that’s really good. Yeah. And that leads right into the next question that I have is, what do rhythms do? What are they for?

[04:42] Afrika: Yeah. I think about in some of like in the examples of rhythms, one of the things that have come to my mind, especially in our practices as a denomination, thinking about like the worship calendar. And I think of those as rhythms as well. I think we all do. Even thinking about being in Epiphany or being in Easter Prep or being in Easter, Ordinary Time, and things like that, I think it gives us almost like an anchor. And an expectation that this is the posture that I want to approach this time with. And we don’t know exactly what God will reveal to us during that time, either directly in our time with Father, Son, and Spirit or with one another.

But I think it gives us something to look forward to and almost a container in which to hold the experiences that God’s going to bring into our lives. And I think it’s anticipatory. So you happen to know, this thing is coming, and I’m really excited about what is it that God’s going to reveal to me in this time?

And I think it gives us something, not only a regularity or a pattern, but also surprise in that. How fascinating God is—there’s mystery in the rhythms as well. It’s not to say that we know exactly, like every year during Epiphany God does exactly this. No, God surprises us all the time, but we know the themes that we’re thinking about. We’re thinking about new life or we’re thinking about celebration or light or preparation or celebration. There’s many different things.

So, we can look forward to different things, but also have that space for mystery about what’s actually going to happen during that time. We don’t know for sure, but it’s exciting.

[06:26] Cara: Yes, and I love the phrase you use, a container for whatever it is that God is doing in that season or that we focus on what God has done. And how there’s also that space for mystery in that container. Because even that example that you give of the seasons, it’s the same thing, right? If you live in a climate where you have four seasons, the seasons are predictable. But one tree in Fall, one year, can be a bright orange and then the next year, maybe it’s red. And the next year may be brown. And the seasons are reliable in that sense. But they look very different every year.

And it’s to think about the worship calendar that way too. We come back to every year, Easter preparation. We come back every year to Advent. But what God may be shaping in us as we focus on that aspect of who he is and who we are and Him might be one year a little bit bright orange and one year a little bit deep red.

[07:30] Afrika: Exactly. And I love that. I mean that surprise element that’s in there that I feel like God constantly brings us into. And I think the other piece too is that I’m somebody who is I want to understand something, and I want to have a solid understanding of it. And once I think I understand— I’ve been leaning away from this now—but my default setting is to just be like, yeah, I know this thing.

But I think the other piece about rhythms is just you may think you know that thing, but you might not quite. Before I really understood and studied about what actually happens during season, I thought I had an understanding. I grew up in New York City, winter looked a certain way, spring looked a certain way. There are certain things that would happen or that we could anticipate.

But the more I started to learn about seasons, I’m like, oh, I actually have no idea; I’m just thinking about, okay, flowers are growing. Or my big thing when I was a kid was when Forsythias would be out. That would be something I would be excited about.

So, I understood it from a certain perspective, but then as I started to study more about trees or the life cycle of a plant. Oh, there’s a lot of stuff, a lot more things that I don’t understand yet.

And even in the things we anticipate in a rhythm, there’s still that element of surprise in it too, as we deepen our understanding. And I think that’s a really great place to be with God.

[08:46] Cara: Yeah. I really like that idea of going deeper in those rhythms. And one of the things that makes me think of is I can experience rhythms as formation too. And part of that is because it brings us deeper as we revisit certain things, revisits certain places. It’s almost even that image of the spiral You’re revisiting, but maybe you’re going deeper each time.

[09:10] Afrika: That’s such a good point. Yeah. And I feel like the question you asked me earlier about which rhythms am I thinking about now, so much so true with prayer.

Because when I was a kid, it was more like, all right, let me pray to God for forgiveness because he’s probably mad at me. Let me ask for stuff like treating God like Santa Claus or like a genie. It was prayer is just asking God, because you know the scriptures say, ask, and seek and knock and ask for what you want, it’ll be given to you. And it’s like you have a certain individualistic perception of that.

But then I think now, as I’ve been learning more about the different types of prayer—not to say that, supplication is not part of that, right? God wants to know everything that’s on our minds and things like that. But moving beyond okay, I understood intercessory prayer, but then also the different like silent prayer or listening prayer.

One of the more recent ones I learned about was soaking prayer. And I feel like the more I learn about this rhythm, the more there is to learn. And it’s connected, but also distinct in a lot of ways. And it’s like you’re saying, that spiral of going deeper and really having something become a part of you.

[10:21] Cara: Yeah. I like that. Some of the things that rhythms can do for us is it brings us deeper; it gives us that container to hold both a mystery and the intentionality of a particular season. And be transformational in that way. Yeah, I love that.

And when we think about Healthy Church rhythms specifically, what are some examples of Healthy Church rhythms that come to mind?

[10:47] Afrika: I’ve had the wonderful pleasure of being part of a School of Formation since for the—it’s an eight-month program that’s actually part of New Life Fellowship in New York City. It’s a cohort basically, that you can participate in where we take a deep dive into—Rich Villodas is the pastor of that church and also the author of The Deeply Formed Life.

And we’ve been really deeply leaning into several things like contemplative rhythms and internal examination and really thinking about all these things and what they mean to us as Christians. And I think especially when it came to the contemplative rhythms part. Thinking about Sabbath keeping, as soon as we started talking about that, I’m like no, no! Rich, please, I don’t want to talk about Sabbath keeping because my experience as a younger person with Sabbath keeping was not enjoyable at all. It really felt not punishment, so to speak, but it just felt drudgery.

It was a time when you can’t do anything fun. You can’t hang out with your friends; you can’t watch anything that you enjoy on TV. You can only watch nature programs. I remember just because we would observe from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday, and it just wasn’t enjoyable.

But when I started, I’m like, okay, let me not bring that into the experience. Let me actually lean into learning. What is God’s intention? What is his heart behind Sabbath keeping? And I was like, oh, this is beautiful, being able to have this period of rest, and enjoyment of not only our time with God, but in community with one another.

And even it’s shaking up my previous perceptions of different types of rhythms and practices. I think when it comes to Healthy Church, I think that’s the piece too, like we were talking about just now, taking a deeper dive into somethings. One of the concepts that came to mind for me as I was learning, or that was a part of our learning was that, thinking about God, when he created began human life, the very next day was a day of rest. And they were created and then brought into rest, and I was like, yo! So, I’m like, let me think about this. That means something.

I think about when it comes to Healthy Church, in order to embody all the things that we know that Jesus has invited us into, whether it be how we’re living out with intentionality the Faith Avenue or Love Avenue or the Hope Avenue, it really comes from a place of our own connection with God.

And I think it’s twofold. It’s that we have these times, these rhythms that we enjoy with God. And it could be in silence and solitude. And even thinking about “solitude” feels a bit different for me because I’m not completely alone because Father, Son, and Spirit are persons, and I’m spending time with them.

But it’s not just meant for me to enjoy as an individual only. I bring that into communion with the larger body. And then we bring those things that we are doing with God—whether it’s keeping Sabbath, or our prayer rhythms or things like that, or the slow reading of Scripture like Lectio Divina, or even thinking about Visio Davina, (which is a newer exploration for me).

I think all of those practices individually and then collectively, they are leading into, they’re the pathway or the on-ramp, so to speak, into the components of a Healthy Church. And I really feel excited about that because I’m learning a lot more about not seeing my relationship with God as it’s just me and him. Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior.

I used to say that for a long time. Yes, you are in relationship with Jesus, but oh, there are all these other children that God wants us to be in connection with too. I think being able to lean into our rhythms individually and then with one another, I think really feeds all the components of a Healthy Church.

[14:52] Cara: Yeah. That’s a beautiful thing that you’ve described because one of those rhythms of a Healthy Church is coming together in spiritual practices corporately as the church. And not just, on our own, in our own little corners and spaces and then just coming together for maybe activities as a corporate body or just a Sunday worship service. But how are we coming together fully in our discipleship, all aspects holistically, one with another and sharing with each other what we’re learning from our own formation times and rhythms? And how does that impact one another as we participate communally as the church?

[15:37] Afrika: Yeah. Yeah. The image that just came to mind for me just now as I was listening to you is like thinking about the main body of a river, but then also the tributaries that could flow into that main river.

It’s thinking about individual time with God is like those tributaries, right? But then there’s the main flow; we are bringing what God is forming in us into that main flow. And in that way, we get to really spread the aroma of the kingdom, which is so needed, so needed!

And one of the things I was thinking about yesterday was—especially with that piece around being the aroma of the kingdom of God—it’s like when you think about a concentrated aroma, that could be bad, right?

I think about sometimes when—and now let me be real—when Dishon is cooking, not so much me. But with Dishon’s cooking and we’re frying something or making something. If we’re doing it inside the house, sometimes the smoke alarm comes on because the smoke is in the house and it’s a lot, but if we’re grilling outside, not only is it just okay, everybody else in the area gets to smell that good smell and maybe it awakens the hunger in them, or they get to enjoy the aroma. But if we’re just having it in the house only, it’s overwhelming and it’s not really fulfilling its true purpose, which I think is to create an invitation almost. I think about that too.

[16:56] Cara: Yeah. I really like that analogy, and it makes me even and think about, when we talk about Healthy Church rhythms, I think being in rhythms of mission. (And we’re going to talk about that on a later podcast in a couple of months.) But are we sharing that aroma? And it does come from—I think what you’re saying is that—that foundation of are we being formed? Are we being discipled together as a community? And then, what happens as an overflow from that? How are we joining in what God’s doing as he shapes and forms and transforms us as his followers. And maybe we are grilling outside and letting the neighborhood smell a little bit and get a little bit hungry.

[17:46] Afrika: Yes. Absolutely.

[17:51] Cara: No that’s really great.

And then, I think an important thing to note is, again, that foundation of when we think about Healthy Church rhythms, it is grounded in who God is and who we are because of him. And those spiritual practices personally and corporately are really important because otherwise rhythms can become just activities of the church rather than rhythms that are rooted in what God is doing in our midst because of who he is and who he has called us to be as our church. I really appreciate the way that you rooted that answer. Not just, rhythms are you got to make a calendar and you got to do this and you got to do that, because those are ways …

[18:39] Afrika: And that’s part of it.

[18:41] Cara: It is. It is, but that’s secondary. It’s the rhythm of who God is and who he’s created us to be. Our primary rhythm is, are we in step with him?

[18:49] Afrika: Right. And the thinking about God’s purposes, and God’s desire and his heart. And I think, there’s much—and I’m speaking for myself—there was much of a misunderstanding about who God is for much of my life. And for me it feels really exciting to be able to think about, what do rhythms in the Healthy Church look like?

And then for me, when we’re thinking about the gospel is good news, for a lot of my life as a Christ follower, I was like, this doesn’t feel like good news. I don’t really feel like I want to talk about this because it feels actually scary. But then actually getting in those spaces, in those rhythms, in that depth of communing with God, both in time directly with him and with one another, we’re really getting to discover, who he really is, who [is] Father, Son, and Spirit.

What does that mean? It’s so beautiful. It’s not scary. And it was really refreshing for me to learn. It’s actually a really beautiful relationship that we’re invited into.

And I think too one of the things that’s been helping me, even in my own time with God is— because I’ve used the term myself and heard the term, sacred imagination.

And I’m drawn to that. And even in that time of slow reading of Scripture and placing ourselves in the story. But I think also, the blessing of the work that other people have been brought into as well, like watching The Chosen as a show, really seeing the way that they depict Jesus is beautiful. So that too, really being able to enjoy that. For me, I could watch The Chosen alone and be like, this is beautiful. Or we can really enjoy—doesn’t have to be the watching of the show, but like really leaning into, how do we together envision what it is that God has said and what he is saying. Yeah. I love that too.

[22:44] Cara: Yeah, so much richness bringing even our life rhythms together as the church and the life rhythms of our neighborhood. I love that.

Another thing that—because it sounds like we could go on about that forever. Another thing that we do talk a lot about in GCI, one of our mantras is High Support, High Challenge–Grace Always. And how can the use of rhythms and paying attention to our rhythms provide us both high support and high challenge as we grow in Healthy Churches?

[21:21] Afrika: Yeah. I’m actually going to flip it and talk about high challenge first because I think that one of the things I’m noticing as I’m learning more and studying more and really leaning into learning about rhythms is that it really does shake us up. There are certain ways that we are used to being.

And then think about the word formation. This is something that I’ve learned from Michelle [Fleming] quite a bit. We’re all being formed. But what’s forming us? I think about that too, as we are thinking about, if we are learning about okay, Father, Son, and Spirit, we are invited into deep rest. What does that look like?

And sometimes that’s going to look a bit different than we maybe have been used to practicing. For example, one of the examples is in being in the School of Formation and hearing, how do y’all as a whole church practice Sabbath. Or even like Ruth Haley Barton’s recent book, she’s talked about all these different practices before, but her most recent book is about embracing the rhythms of Sabbath and sabbatical.

And if we believe those things, what does that actually look like practically? Because we are in a society that is largely formed as pretty antithetical to those rhythms. I think the challenge might even be for all of us as a group to say—and one of the examples that we explored in the School of Formation was, what if someone has three jobs? And they need to work those jobs to take care of their family. And they really have a hard time being able to enjoy Sabbath.

And it’s even then to start to look at, what is our economy? How do we as a body support those, like in Acts, like those who gave to those who didn’t have, and everybody had enough?

And what does that mean if we believe that there are certain sacred rhythms that God is inviting us into? What are in our practices that we need to do away with or that we need to question? If we want people to be able to enjoy time in having solitude or time of retreat or time of really slow reading into the word, are we as a denomination, as a body, are we creating the conditions for which we can do those things well?

And that’s the reason why I wanted to talk about challenge for us because I feel like we have to lay that foundation. And then we’ll be ready to provide the support.

Because for me if someone—I’ll just use myself as an example—if someone’s like, boy Afrika (and they’ve given me a whole bunch of stuff to do) but you should get some rest. I’ll be like, I don’t think you really believe that. You keep giving me more stuff to do, and it’s going to be harder for me to get rest.

But if someone is just, you know what? You really need to have time to rest. We believe that this is what God has intended for us, that we can be whole, and that we can be spreading the aroma of the kingdom and we’re not exhausted and burned out. And how do we make sure that we can do those things?

So I think the challenge is to make sure that the foundational practices are there. And it’s not a challenge for people to be able to lean into. That’s what comes to mind.

[24:19] Cara: That’s really excellent. Because when we think about things in terms of rhythms rather than just, oh, we’re just going to do things the way that we always done them or whatever, willy-nilly go on about our lives as a church, then we will get faced with these tough questions. If we are committed to this rhythm that we believe God has invited into, what does that actually mean for our lives and how we move? And what it means to be committed to this rhythm that God has invited us into.

And how do we need to be transformed to walk in step with this rhythm?

[24:56] Afrika: Absolutely. Because I think about that a lot as far as how God’s been shaking up my understanding in the most beautiful way. There’s many things in the scriptures that we read and we’re like, oh look, Jubilee, that’s such a beautiful thing. Oh, that was then, we can’t do that. It doesn’t have to be old. We can with intentionality start to look at, what is God’s heart around Jubilee? And why does that exist and how do we—that’s part of the aroma of the kingdom as well—how do we make sure that we are living out these practices?

Because I feel like it connects to everything, but we’re not going to be able to share the love of Jesus with people who, if they look at our lives and they’re just like, you’re always stressed out, you don’t seem like you really have time for joy, fun, or a celebration. It seems like you’re just working, and that doesn’t really feel like good news, going back to that concept in order to be really compelling.

And that’s not to say that’s our aim, but if people look at our lives, do we reflect the rhythms that God invites us into? Or are we of that mindset to be like, oh yeah, that’s what God used to do in the Old Testament. We don’t do that anymore. Actually, we could. What does that look like? What does it look like to support one another?

[26:10] Cara: Yeah. And when you said reflect the rhythms, it makes me think too, part of that challenge is, are the rhythms of the church reflective of the rhythms of the kingdom? Or the rhythms of the world?

[26:20] Afrika: Yes. Yes, absolutely.

[26:21] Cara: And that is a beautiful and a challenging question to ask ourselves because transformation doesn’t happen overnight. But it is a journey, a beautiful process.

[26:32] Afrika: Yes, absolutely. And I think that’s the piece too, is that sometimes when we—and I see this in the work that I do—often when we come to a realization, something we would like to see change or to be different, we want to jump right to the full change.

But no, you can’t do that. And going back to the seasonal rhythms, you don’t go right from fall into oh, look at this mango tree. There’s some things that need to happen before the fruit’s going to be there, right?

So I think giving ourselves—and I want to be careful to say not giving ourselves an out to say, oh yeah, this is hard, it’s going to take a really long time. It’s not just taking a long time because on the human level we feel like we can’t do it, because it shouldn’t be us doing it.

It should be that we are participating with Father, Son, and Spirit. In what, Father, Son, and Spirit are already doing. And just thinking about, here is what we aspire to do, and then here are the steps that we need to take to lead in that direction.

And then hold ourselves accountable for: we believe that this is God’s intention, and how are we participating?

[27:39] Cara: Yeah. Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. And I’m wondering—and this would’ve been me maybe in my earlier days because I love to be free.

[27:55] Afrika: It’s that Enneagram seven energy.

[27:58] Cara: Yes, it is. What would you say to those who might be concerned that rhythms could keep us maybe locked into too strict of a structure …

[28:10] Afrika: or like rigid.

[28:11] Cara: Yeah. Yeah. And more importantly, might keep us from following the lead of the Spirit , because we’re too committed to the rhythm itself. And as a follow up to that, what are some ways we can discern rhythms by the lead of the Spirit?

[28:27] Afrika: Yeah. I would say the first thing that comes to mind is what we were talking about a bit earlier, is that yes, it is a container. The rhythms are a container, but we’re not to say exactly what the container is going to contain. It is a container, but there’s that mystery piece.

And I think it’s really helpful—this is something I’ve also been learning a lot about, which has been really refreshing—is that in participating with Father, Son, and Spirit in rhythms, it’s not meant to say that we all become like these automatons, like yellow pencils; we’re all in lockstep with one another and there’s no variety. Because one of the things I know well, and I think we all know well about God is that God loves diversity. And he created us with different personalities, different experiences, different inclinations and ideas, and the way that we experience the world, for a reason.

And I would say that a container is not meant to be something that is restrictive. But it’s meant to be something where we are going into a flow with one another, and that God is going to be doing something very particular with us in the way that looks.

He’s going to let us know, and he’s going to bring that in and through our different personalities and our different interests and things too. And I think part of it is making sure, and this is another thing that’s a big part of my work too that I do, is that a lot of times we get an idea about something and we’re like, ooh, this is how it will manifest in a really good way.

But we don’t really ask for input from people who are going to be participating. For me, I would say, I think it’s really important to. Say even thinking about the worship calendar, we are entering into a season of Epiphany or into Easter Prep. What is God saying to you about that time?

How are you enjoying God and are there parts of that you can share in the body? Because there’s many people who might be spontaneous and not want to be locked down either, but feel like something’s wrong with them. But then getting to see somebody who has that same type of inclination, it’s oh, that’s how that could look for me.

And that’s how other people might benefit from it too. I think that’s the communal nature of a rhythm is that let’s all talk about it together. And just in your time with God, what is God saying to you about how he wants you to embody this time?

And then how can we flow in that together? And I think for some people who are like, organization and structure, that can feel a bit scary. But it doesn’t have to. I think because there’s ways to contribute from all of our different ways of being.

I think that if done well and done in collaboration with one another, because we are the body, that could be a helpful type of perspective. And then tell me again the second part of the question.

[31:13] Cara: What are ways that, we can discern rhythms by the leading of the Spirit?

[31:18] Afrika: Yeah. I think one of the things that has been really beneficial is really thinking about what is discernment. And I think another piece that can be really hard—and it’s something that I’m—this is not from me. I’ve been actually listening to a podcast that has really been helpful in thinking about what does it mean to be with God and to listen to God and to communicate with God in prayer.

And some of the caution around that, that people might feel is because sometimes things have been done that have been abusive or manipulative in the name of God. Okay, this one person God told me this about you. And it’s just oh, he didn’t tell me. So, either you’re saying you’re more spiritual than me and something’s wrong with me, or I can’t trust you.

I think that discernment piece is being able to be together in community to say, let’s enter into a time, an intentional time, of here’s what we’re seeking God for and let’s do it together. Let’s pray together. When you are having your time, have this be a part of your focus and let’s regather and trying to be intentional about that.

The time to do that, if you’re trying to think about that in an Advent rhythm, is not necessarily during Advent. So being a bit planful about it and anticipating that time, but really seeing what it is that God is saying because God is not going to say one thing to me and then say something completely contradictory to you. And I think this is really being able to, one, like we were talking about before, get our own individual rhythms into a place where God is speaking to us and we are hearing from him. And then also being able to bring that together in community and to seek God together.

[32:57] Cara: Yes. And I think that’s a really important point that you make that say in the worship calendar, where we’re doing planning and discerning what that looks like as a church community to celebrate Advent. When we’re following those rhythms, we know what to expect when Advent’s coming up. It gives us the opportunity to discern collectively or on our team what that’s going to look like, what that can look like.

And we can corporately be discerning versus if we don’t follow a rhythm, then we don’t necessarily have the heads up to discern together. And then we default to that, oh, I woke up this morning and I decided this is what the “whatever” is going to look like today. And I think that’s a great opportunity to come back to that point of we’re doing this together in community, discerning together in community. And at the end of the day, it is God that we’re following. It’s not the rhythms themselves.

You mentioned at the start of our conversation, God’s got rhythms everywhere. That’s another aspect, rhythms aren’t antithetical to how God works. And yeah, I think that’s a beautiful thing that it gives us the opportunity to allow us as the church to participate more corporately, in that discernment about what this will look like to live out these rhythms.

[34:26] Afrika: Yeah, and I think that, it definitely helps too because one of the other things I’ve been thinking about a lot lately is I can’t even say how many different spiritual gifts inventories I’ve taken. They usually tell me the same thing and just okay, yes, Afrika, you have an administration gift, and you have a mercy gift, and you have the gift of discernment. And I’m usually, great, that’s good to know. Not really sure what that looks like.

And I think that piece of it too is really being able to—when we incorporate those types of rhythms with one another, it gives us the opportunity to develop the gifts that God has given us in the body. Not in just a way of identifying gifts, but actually like flowing in the gifts that God has given us because that’s the benefit of being a body.

And if we are getting together corporately, and you share something with me that God said to you, I’m like, I never really saw it like that. And that’s really very helpful to me to consider how God is revealing it to you and how it could even enrich me. And it could be a mutual experience.

And I think that piece of the mutuality of a communal space is important and also very challenging because we are in a context in a society that is very focused on individualism when it comes to our relationship with God. And that’s not the intention.

[35:50] Cara: Oh, that’s good. What are some more benefits of a rhythmic lifestyle of the church over maybe spontaneous or unplanned activity?

[36:06] Afrika: I would say the benefit of having it be more planned is that people can intentionally participate. If I’m just like—not to say this’s not a space for spontaneity because I think that there should be. I think that it can be good.

Also, that when we think about if we want to be able to invite people to participate, people need the opportunity to know that it’s going to happen and to plan for it. And I think that’s the piece too. It’s not meant to be something that’s limiting, it’s actually meant to be something that frees as many people up as possible to participate.

So if someone—this has happened quite a bit where I get an email just tomorrow this thing is going to happen. I’m just, I actually I can’t do it. Not because I’m not interested, but because I already have something planned for that day. And I think that really being able to create space for people to find out about an opportunity and to participate and to planfully participate in it. Because I’m not at this stage of life anymore, but there was a stage where, our children were younger. And if maybe it’s an event that’s not necessarily for everybody, say it’s for maybe adults or whatever, I need to make sure I have childcare.

Or I need to make sure that if it is a family event, that whatever’s being offered is going to be something that my child is going to enjoy so I can get them ready. I think it gives us an opportunity to be planful. But then also folks who really enjoy a bit more spontaneity, you connect with one another and then y’all can really be able to enjoy that too.

But I think if we are operating more like that than actually giving people the opportunity to join in, then it makes it hard for people to participate. And we are putting up unnecessary barriers.

[37:49] Cara: Yeah. And that if we go back to even that idea of container maybe the better comparison is rhythmic versus arrhythmic because there is room for spontaneity within rhythm.

[38:01] Afrika: Absolutely. Yeah. I think that when we have that opportunity to invite one another in, it’s really important. I think especially something that I think about too, is in our different personalities. I’m someone who, I need a moment to process.

And so when I see an opportunity, I’m not typically going to be “yes” immediately. I got to think about that. Let me take a look. And giving people who need an opportunity to prepare, and then also folks who may not need that as much, to understand folks who may need that space a bit more.

[38:35] Cara: Along those lines of creating more space for participation and kind of orienting ourselves towards others and the corporate, having a rhythm helps us to create that space. Because for an example, as a leader, if I were to do all of my sermons for a year without following a rhythm of the worship calendar, me, who I am and the life experiences that I’ve had and the passions that God’s given me, I am going to focus majority on particular aspects of who Jesus is and his kingdom because I’m one piece of the body. But when we have rhythms that cover the whole story, that gives opportunities, one for me to step out of me, outside of myself and tell the whole story, not my story of who I’ve experienced God to be.

But then also to invite others into that experience of, let’s tell his story together. Because if it was me, I’d be preaching Advent and Easter, Lent or Easter preparation the whole year. But that’s only part of the story of God and his people.

And I think that’s part of those rhythms too, is we get to focus on the bigger story and as leaders it brings that challenge of, we got to step out of that, step out of ourselves a little bit and more into what is God doing? And how is he doing that in the midst of all of us as body?

[40:19] Afrika: Yeah. And I totally agree because I’m the same way. And I think before starting to learn how to practice Lent differently, I used to be like, oh no. Because of my former impression of Sabbath, my impression of fasting or thinking about that time, oh, it’s such a melancholy time; I’m really trying to have fun.

I don’t really want to be thinking about this or giving something up, or whatever. It was a very limited way, an inaccurate way of thinking about that time. But then as I’m seeing people in the rhythm of our worship together, sharing their perspective and their experience with it, I’m like, oh, I don’t have to see it that way.

Because I’m actually having a more expansive understanding of what it is. And actually, it’s different. It’s different than what happens during Advent or Easter to a certain extent because they have their different components and different purposes. But we get to see the connectivity of it and the things that we might not gravitate to immediately, we can actually unpack what are some of our misperceptions about that thing and to grow an appreciation for that.

And it still might not be our favorite part of the calendar, but we can grow, like I was saying, to appreciate it because it’s valuable.

And there’s beauty in all of it. It just manifests a bit differently. We get to really benefit from one another’s experience with the different parts of the rhythms that God calls us into.

[41:46] Cara: We’re coming up on the end of our time, I have one more question for you.

What advice would you give to those of us who are starting to build Healthy Church rhythms personally and corporately?

[42:02] Afrika: I think, not to just be like, I want to plug this book, but because it’s been beneficial to me. Really, The Deeply Formed Life has been really helpful for me.

I don’t mean to say this book only, but as an example of a book that could—and I’m a book person, there’s that also. If it’s not a book, maybe a pod, there are podcasts too as other sources. But I think really being able to lean into something that is really focusing on formation.

One of the things I enjoy about the way that book is structured is that it has five different practices that we’re thinking about. So, it’s like, here’s the teaching about this practice, and then the next chapter is, let’s unpack that—unpack our experience with it, unpack why that’s meaningful, unpack why how that benefits us spiritually.

So that has been really, really very helpful for me because going back into how I was formed from the beginning, from being a little kid, it matters and not in a way of being like, oh, I want to go back and bash my family. Not that, because everybody has the beginnings of your formation about different things.

But I really appreciate the way, the vulnerability, that Rich Villodas uses, implements as he’s writing and the things that he’s learned and being able to say okay, what are some of the scripts that are in your mind, or some of the things and patterns that you notice generationally or in your own upbringing? What are some of your perceptions about God and how can the Holy Spirit really help you to really heal from some of those things?

And to address and let God work you through some of those things that might be a barrier to you, and it invites you into this wide-open space. And I don’t know how many people have watched the movie The Wiz, which is the Diana Ross, Michael Jackson, Quincy Jones version of The Wizard of Oz.

But there’s a scene—and it’s a spoiler, but the movie came out in the 70s, I don’t really feel bad about it. And plus, it’s kind of similar to The Wizard of Oz. But there’s this one scene where Dorothy and the Tin Man and Scarecrow and the Lion, they’re going to confront this evil queen.

And there are all these people that she’s enslaved and they’re in what looks like really pretty grotesque suits. And they’re like, boy, they look rough, you’re looking at that. And then when they’re liberated from that evil queen, they basically unzip themselves. And that grotesque suit that they have on, that wasn’t really them. It falls away and they’re like beautiful underneath. And then they are dancing and the whole song there is A Brand New Day song.

And I feel like that. I feel like that about being able to uncover what are some of the things that hinder us. What are some of the things that have blocked our true understanding of who God is and how do we help?

How do we put ourselves in a space where God can unzip us and be like, here’s your true self? Here’s who I made you to be, and here’s the formation that you need to get to that self, those opportunities.

And I think whether it be The Deeply Formed Life or some other type of source, but really being able to take a deep dive into different understandings of different ways of connecting with God and doing that work.

It’s not easy, but it’s important and so that we have less barriers to connecting with Father, Son, and Spirit. o that’s been an incredible help to me and I think it could be beneficial to other people.

[45:19] Cara: Thanks for sharing that. Afrika. Yeah, this has been a really, wonderful, enriched conversation.

I am glad you’ve got the time to join us today. But before we close out, I’ve got some fun questions for us if you’re ready.

What would the title of your autobiography be?

[45:43] Afrika: Oh, I feel like I’m cheating because I just started an LLC. [Limited Liability Company, a business structure in the US] And the name …

[45:50] Cara: OK. Yeah. That’s alright.

[45:51] Afrika: No, I’ll just use that same one because I think it’s clever, but it’s “Continental Drift,” because I’m named after a continent and it’s my drift, my perspective. It’ll be Continental Drift.

That’s what I think of now, but it’ll probably have something after the colon as well, the subtitle.

[46:08] Cara: Yeah, I like that. All right. If you could bring back any fashion trend, what would it be?

[46:13] Afrika: Oh, I’m not into fashion trends and that’s going to be really hard for me because I’m like anti – fashion trends.

None of them. Because I really feel people should be able to express themselves, within reason, express themselves in a way that really resonates with them. And I feel like a trend is, no disrespect, but it’s much like copying off of someone else. And if that’s your thing, that’s your thing.

But if you’re just doing it to fit in, then I’m like, oh, that’s kind of corny. I’m like, I don’t think I would, no trends.

[46:46] Cara: No trends. That’s fair enough. That’s a legit answer.

What fictional world or place would you love to visit?

[46:54] Afrika: Oh, I feel like I really would like to be a student at Hogwarts.

I am such a big Harry Potter fan, and I’ve thought about it too. I have done the whole, like the tests and what house would I be in, and I tested and said I would be in Gryffindor. I don’t think that’s true. I’m totally a Hufflepuff and I’m proud of it. It’s really fine. But yeah, it just seems like such a fun place to go to.

There’s a lot of stuff going on there. Typically, when there’s not some type of intense thing happening, it seems like a really cool place to go to school and to just have shared meals and hang out with friends. So that fun part of Hogwarts when there’s not like drama going on seems like it’d be fun.

[47:35] Cara: Yeah, I like it. I like it. Yeah. All right. This one’s fun because you’re from New York. What’s the best phrase or piece of slang that people use in your hometown?

[47:46] Afrika: Oh. This is so hard because what I’m going to say is not to say that this is New York only. Because I actually don’t know where this slang came from, but I love saying that something is dope, and I think sometimes people just like dope? If you, depending on your understanding of the word or what you perceive, you’re like, oh, that’s a terrible thing to say especially as a Christ follower. I’m just like, no, I don’t mean that. It’s cool. I’m like, I used the word dope a lot. I like that.

[48:10] Cara: That’s a good one. That’s a good one. All right. And last one, if you were an action figure, what two accessories would you come with?

[48:19] Afrika: Oh, that’s really good. Okay. I feel like, ooh, the Black Panther suit. I love that the way that Shuri designed it is so that like it builds like as you’re taking hits, that it’s building up kinetic energy that you can then— I don’t know what’s the word, like blast, right? You can fight with that.

And then I also, I guess, I don’t know if I would need these too, as like with the Black Panther suit. But I’m thinking, I really love the idea of flying. And I’m like, I think maybe that’s in like falcons. Yeah, like the wings. You can just fly; you can fly fast and change direction quickly. Oh, I love that. I’m like, I’d have a weird like mix of a Black Panther suit and wings like a falcon.

[49:06] Cara: If it works, it works.

[49:08] Afrika: It’d be very unique.

[49:09] Cara: Yes, it would. Sure would. This has been fun, Afrika. I really have enjoyed having you here today.

[49:17] Afrika: Me too. Thank you.

[49:18] Cara: No, thank you. We have the practice that we end our episodes with prayer. And I would love for you to pray for our churches, our pastors, ministry leaders, and members in GCI.

[49:31] Afrika: Absolutely.

Father, Son, and Spirit, we are so delighted. We are so delighted to just be able to be in your presence, to know who we are in you and with one another.

You are such a kind and caring and generous God, and we just really, first of all, start by giving you praise and glory and saying hallelujah to your name because you are everything. You are everything to us. And we really want to take the time now to hold in the light of your truth and your grace and your mercy and your care those who are leading congregations, Lord, that you would make sure that they really know who they are in you, and know your provision to know your peace, your comfort, your guidance, Lord.

We pray for the members as well and all around the world. The world is a heavy place. It’s such a heavy place, Lord. And at the same time, you have introduced us to, and invited us into such a beautiful experience with you, Lord. And we pray that leaders and members all around the world, Lord, would know the joy of your presence that would know the relief of your peace and your shalom, Lord, that we would know rest and that we would know excitement and celebration, Lord, and that we would be with one another in difficult times, Lord, and also in joyful times, Lord, and really just being able to enjoy the communion that you have offered us.

We are so grateful, so grateful to you, God. And we pray, Lord, that we will continue to glorify you and proclaim your worth and your majesty in all that we do and decide and think and say. In all these things, we ask in Jesus’ name. Amen.

[51:13] Cara: Amen. Amen. Thank you, Afrika. And until next time folks, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the GC Podcast. We hope you have found value in it to become a healthier leader. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic, or if there is someone who you think we should interview, email us at info@gci.org. Remember, Healthy Churches start with healthy leaders; invest in yourself and your leaders.

The post Why Rhythms? w/ Afrika Mills first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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The 4 Es of Ministry Development w/ Amiyo Bacher & Richard Ablordeppey

Welcome to the GC Podcast. A podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today we are going vignette style once again. I’m so pleased to introduce you to my first guest for this episode, Amiyo Bacher. He is a pastor and church planter in Khulna, Bangladesh. He is married to Christina, and they have two children.

Welcome, Amiyo. We are so thankful that you are willing to join us today for this episode.

Amiyo: Hello.

Cara: Yes. And I’m excited for our conversation today because we’ve been talking about the 4 Es, engage, equip, encourage, and empower as a guide to our process of development. And I know that you’ve had an experience being mentored and developed in GCI Crossway, in the Philippines.

I would love for you to share a little bit of your experience with us today and maybe we can learn a little bit about what it looks like in real life to be developed as a leader and to develop others as leaders in our local churches as disciples and as a priesthood of all believers.

Amiyo, my first question that I’d love to hear from you is, when was a time that you felt engaged in a meaningful and transformative way while you were at GCI Crossway?

Amiyo: Thank you, Cara, for this wonderful question. Maybe I can say a little bit. Before GCI Crossway, we are all studying in Philippines at lnternational Graduate School of Leadership. So, I got invited by Dr. Eugene Guzon because I’m looking for a church to attend. Then I attend GCI Crossway. So, when we attended GCI Crossway, we observed that people are very friendly and welcoming for the newcomers. That impressed us to continue attending GCI Crossway.

After a few weeks, we observed the worship service, sermons, fellowship, and intentional personal care that are very meaningful for us to influence joining GCI Crossway.

Cara: Yeah. I love that you shared that there was an intentional invitation and that they were welcoming. That’s so important to feel welcomed into the body, in the local community of the church. That’s really important.

After you were welcomed in, and you connected through those first few worship services and connected with some people, how did you get equipped as a leader while participating at GCI Crossway?

Amiyo: I felt it was like another practical training in the church, besides our seminary school. GCI Crossway is team based and pastor led ministry. It is a very good model that reflects the God we believe in. I felt the pastoral team has built a team of ministry leaders and have an advisory council in place to make sure that the congregation is being equipped, listened to, and going in the right direction in the journey of Jesus.

Besides, they have many training sessions like discipleship training, a small group after service, pastoral meetings, mentoring, outreach program, retreat, and elder convention. GCI Crossway invite us to join all of this. We are privileged to join those sessions which is very helpful in our ministry practically. So that helped us to equip and fully participate in the life of the church of GCI Crossway.

Cara: And I think what you said about the practical aspect is really important, that you got hands-on and practical ministry equipping. That’s really great.

Was there an aspect of equipping that really impacted you the most while you were at GC Crossway? Because it sounds like there was a lot of different things that you had the opportunity to be equipped with.

Amiyo: Yeah, they have a lot. Their session for equipping the believers who already want to live their life as a leader. So, I feel that personally, the worship service is really amazing and applicable in our country’s context.

And also, the church fellowship. And also, the intentionality of pastor Aron [Tolentino] and also Dr. [Eugene] Guzon. Their fellowship with my family many times, also other believers, is really amazing for me, for equipping and encourage our whole family.

And I also observe my area superintendent pastor Dan Zachariah. He’s also doing the same things. He is really available when I need to contact with him or any suggestion. So, I really love and motivated by their service.

Cara: Yes. And I want our podcast listeners to catch a really important thing in what you said about your experience, Amiyo. The availability of the leaders of Danny and Eugene and Pastor Aaron, the relationships, that they would fellowship with you and your family—that is so important in the development of leaders, and that is the foundation that we can equip one another from.

And so, without those relationships, equipping is okay and it’s important, but that makes the equipping just so much more important and so much more alive, because we’re the church. So, we’re supposed to be in relationship with each other because our God is in relationship— Father, Son, and Spirit. So that’s a beautiful thing about your experience. That’s incredible. I love to hear that.

Amiyo: Also, empower and encourage. Also, the sermon has much empowered and encouraged for me and for my wife. We’re also very blessed each Sunday when we attend Crossway. Also, the doctrine sometimes is really hard to understand, but when we attend at Crossway church, they’re teaching about Trinity is very easy to understand and meaningful for me. So, I am also blessed to attend that and also empower and encourage and motivate myself and to attend the Crossway church.

Cara: Yes. And then, you mentioned that empowerment and encouragement—as you and your family have moved back to Bangladesh. In your church planting and pastoring there in Khulna, what are some more ways that you have felt empowered and encouraged because of the experience that you’ve had in GCI Crossway?

Amiyo: Based on my experience when we’re attending Crossway, I understood that a Christian leader is a servant with credibility and capability to influence brethren in a particular context to pursue their God-given direction. I observe also in Crossway, the leaders, the pastoral teams, that they’re very good at doing this.

So, I’m also following and learning from the Crossway church and also their leaders’ lives.

Cara: Yeah. That’s excellent. That’s excellent. What else about your experience shapes how you lead and how you pastor today?

Amiyo: For me, I am also really following what I learned here in Bangladesh. So, we have also a pastoral team. Also, we have a team who are really motivating our brethren in our five house churches.

So, we are really passionate, but we are learning that this is not our ministry. This is God’s ministry. So, our believers, and also our leaders, are really doing voluntary as a servant to serve our brethren in different [inaudible]. So that’s the model I am really following.

Cara: Ah I love hearing that and I love how even the way that you saw pastoral leadership happen in GCI Crossway and the ways that you were able to participate there has shaped that because that’s a beautiful thing when we realize that our ministries are not our ministries, right? They’re God’s ministries because that frees us to participation in his ministry.

And I think that is really one of the most important things in developing leaders, right? Yes. Ourselves as leaders and as we develop other leaders, is that we lead only as participants in what God is already doing. Oh, that’s excellent.

And so, what I hear there that I really praise God for is not only has your experience being developed as a leader at GCI Crossway shaped your leadership, but it’s already shaping how you are developing leaders in Bangladesh. And that is a really cool thing to see, that now you are developing leaders in this particular way according to this model because you believe that this is—from your experience—that this is the Christ-centered way to develop leaders in the church. That’s a really amazing thing. I praise God for that. Amen. Amen.

When you’re thinking about your experience being developed as a leader and as you continue to—that’s the other thing that I think I heard that’s really important is that you all are continuing as a leadership team to learn and grow. That’s an important thing. When we think about developing, we’re always learning and growing. We like to use the phrase a lot of times, lifelong learner. We never learn everything that we need to know to participate in Jesus’s ministry because that is so amazing and so vast and so incredible, that how could we ever learn everything that we need to know, right?

So, he’s always teaching us and we’re always learning. So, I thought that was an important thing too. And so, as you guys are continuing to learn, as you are continuing to learn, as you pastor, what would you want our listeners on the podcast to know about developing leaders?

Amiyo: I think lot of things I can say for our listener, but I’ll advise the first thing is faithful. So being a leader, we have to faithful to God and family. So sometimes we really deny our family. We give more priority to God, but we need to maintain balance, faithfully to God and family.

And secondly, available. We have to be available to serve our brethren and team. So being a leader, so we should always be available when we need or anything to do. So, we should go there, then our leaders can feel more comfortable with our presence.

And thirdly, is teachable. So, we should teach our brethren the word of God correctly so that they can bear fruit for our Lord.

And last part, not the least, is personal responsibility for learning opportunities. I love this. I love to learn from word of God and other teachings to serve our Lord. It is very important for all the leaders to [have] personal responsibility for learning some new things that we can serve in a creative way to our church to learn and also our team. Yeah, these are the things I really want to advise for our listener.

Cara: Yeah. Yes. And what I really appreciate about your advisement is that the foundation of ministry leadership, because it’s not our ministry, as you said. It’s God’s ministry. The foundation of our development as leaders is discipleship. And in what you’ve just shared, that’s, I think, the key in what you shared is, we’re faithful in our discipleship and we have that responsibility in community with one another where we continue to learn and grow as disciples.

And I think that’s an incredible thing because first and foremost we are disciples. And then secondarily we are leaders in God’s church and participants in his ministry. So yeah, I think that’s really wise advice. Amiyo.

Anything else? Is anything else that you would love to, to share with our listeners? Any final encouragements that you would like to share from your own experiences?

Amiyo: I think I love GCI in whole world—the team-based, pastor led ministry. So, I really love this model that we are also following here and is really working here actively. So, for our listeners, I think all our churches—even in the family also—we need a good team.

That it works very good way. Not only in our church battles, I always felt that in a family also, we need to work teamwise. And I read about team-based, pastor led ministry is a really, very good way to leading our lives, our family lives, and also church life. Even when we go to church plant in new areas, it’s also working.

I feel that as a team, so without team, we cannot do good things. But as a team, we can do many good things. Even why we’ll go, how we’ll go, but is this really nice? That’s the things I really want our listener, that we’re team-based and serve God, that our Lord can see the fruit and throughout our life, our team efforts, then our Lord can be glorified.

This is the things I really want to say.

Cara: Amen. Team-based leadership. Absolutely. I think that there’s a power in it and I think that it works. It’s a great way to be a relationship and leadership with one another with his church and ministry.

So, thank you. Thank you so much, Amiyo, for sharing that. That’s about the time that we have today. So, I really appreciate you willing to share out of your own experience and share the insights and wisdoms that you have gained, one from your experience at GCI Crossway, but then secondarily and maybe even more importantly, your experiences in Bangladesh after you have taken your experiences being developed in GCI Crossway and now, you’re passing that on to other leaders. And you’re developing other leaders. I think that’s an incredible thing.

I think that shows we are disciples who are called to make disciples, and I really praise God that you and your family are saying yes and amen to participate in that. And my prayers are with you guys as you continue to do so. It’s an incredible thing. And what God is up to you in your midst is a wonderful thing. I thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us today.

And we will hear from our next guest in just a moment.

Hi, friends. I am so glad to introduce you, our second guest for this vignette episode of GC Podcast, Richard Ablordeppy. Richard is a bivocational pastor of two congregations in Ghana, has a family, is father of two children.

Richard, I’m so thankful that you’re willing to join us today. So, thank you so much and welcome to the GC Podcast.

Richard: Thank you very much, Cara. It’s a privilege to be here. Yeah.

Cara: And in this episode we’re hearing experiences of being engaged and equipped, empowered and encouraged, developed as leaders and disciples. And so, I’m really looking forward to you sharing your story with us.

And so, the first question that I have for you, Richard, is when is a time that you have felt engaged in a meaningful and transformative way in GCI Ghana?

Richard: That’s a very, very big question because my entire life has been spent in GCI. I was born in GCI, so I’ve had many opportunities to be engaged. But I think the most meaningful one to me was after I graduated from the university and was wondering what to do next with life. Then the opportunity was given by the church, by the head pastor at the time, Pastor Emmanuel Okai. And he said there’s a seminary that GCI Ghana was partnering to train upcoming leaders.

And he asked if I was interested in participating in that training. It was it a surprise to me because I didn’t think I was supposed to be considered for that. But the trust and the way he brought it up, the trust he had in me and the way he brought it up, encouraged me to just say yes, that I would participate.

And so immediately after school, I had that opportunity to go into training at a Christian seminary, and that, for me was the most impactful or the most important intervention in my life as far as ministry is concerned. It brought my mind to the ministry. It brought my mind to the service of God, and I began to follow the tracks towards leadership.

So that is for me, when I had the most meaningful engagement.

Cara: What I think is so incredible about what you share in your experience too, is Pastor Emmanuel, he was intentional, right? He saw you and what God was at work at in your life and he purposefully engaged you and invited you into that opportunity.

That intentionality, it sounds like, has been really meaningful, and has had that impact into how you’ve participated in ministry since then. And I think that’s an important aspect of engaging one another is to do it with intention. And I praise God for your willingness to say yes. So that’s an incredible thing. It’s an incredible thing.

And so, you mentioned Richard, that when you received this training at the seminary and that, that was part of the formative experience that you had. What other ways were you equipped while participating in GCI Ghana that were meaningful to you?

Richard: So, I think the environment that was created by leadership was one that empowered us as youth at the time. It gave us room to operate. For me, the first thing that stood out was the fact that leadership was willing to allow the youth to participate in things that earlier on, only the, in quotes, the elders or the older ones were doing.

And so, at a very young age, we’re pushed into service in terms of doing sermonettes, split sermons. We were already doing worship leading and all the other activities in church. But that environment for me was very important—an environment that encouraged everyone to participate.

And then the next thing, after the environment that was created, was the fact that opportunity was intentionally given to us. For example, when Pastor Okai is traveling to speak somewhere, he would select some of us and then travel along with us. And on the way he talks to you, he asks you questions, you respond. And in that way, he was mentoring us.

You get to the place. He would allow you to speak, and then he’ll evaluate you afterwards. And so that was one of the ways.

But he was not the only one doing it. Anytime I had the opportunity to speak in church, there were senior pastors who were like fathers to me. I could walk to any of them and ask for feedback, and they were glad they will gladly give it.

So, the environment and the intentional way of pushing us, who they saw potential in. They pushed us into this part of leadership. By God’s grace, we were able to find our feet and also to participate and come all the way to this point.

Cara: Yes. And I hear in your story the importance of relationship.

You mentioned that you were mentored by Pastor Okai, and I think that’s an incredible way to experience being equipped—that it’s hands-on. It’s not just the head knowledge, but it’s actually, come along with me and see.

Yeah, I praise God for that experience. I think that’s really where that equipping comes to life. And we see that actually reflected in the life and the earthly ministry of Jesus as well. He says, come along, do what I’m doing. That’s incredible.

Then, you’re talking about those specific opportunities that were intentionally opened up and provided to you and the other youth in that environment, in GC Ghana. What were some of the maybe most important or key ways that you were empowered and encouraged that really impacted how you developed as a leader?

Richard: I think, first of all, identifying the strengths that we had. For me, the leadership identified in me some strengths and would give me assignments in that direction.

For example, there was a convention, and that is, in those days, we’re just doing F.O.T. [Feast of Tabernacles] But it had been. We now called it convention, annual conventions. We were drafted into organizing those programs.

So a couple of us were put together and asked to go and design a program and bring it up, get a budget, put together, and bring it up, and then feedback will be given. Go and add this. Have you considered that? And gradually that kind of hands-on approach, we were able to learn, we were able to get a skill. And they were able to pass on to us things that we didn’t get from school or from studies.

And so, for me, those were some of the ways. I valued those means of empowering us more than even the seminary opportunity I had.

Also, we had what we called leaders’ or new leaders’ seminars. And in these new leaders’ seminars, you would go and you are supposed to speak on a particular topic. You go and speak, and then there are many leaders there who evaluate what you’re speaking on.

So, I enjoyed the hands-on approach to doing things that were church business than the academic ones that we did, which brought us the knowledge we that was required to save.

So those were the ways I think, were the most impactful means I was empowered or I was brought up.

Cara: And not only that “hands-on” that’s really important, as we’ve even already mentioned and how it reflects even the ministry of Jesus and brought you into participating in his ministry.

Not just learning about the Ministry of Christ, but I hear also that you said they, the leaders that were pouring into you, saw and identified and called out your strengths and the giftings that God has given you. And I think that’s a really important thing for us as the body of Christ to think about and to practice because that whole image, even of the body of Christ. We’re different parts of his body.

And so to see you personally as God has created you, and to draw that out so that you can respond to your own calling as whatever part of the body God has made you to be instead of, kind of “factory setting” making leaders, and we just make a bunch of hands instead of what is God doing in the life of this person?

I just really think that’s an important thing that I heard you say that I want our listeners to hear is that personalized way that the leaders who poured into you were able to come alongside you to name that.

Leaders poured into you in a personalized way. How did that help you respond and even discern more specifically your calling as Richard, instead of just a generic leader?

Richard: I think that when I went to the seminary, and I started to study more about the theological or the theory behind scriptures and some of the topics that were treated there, it whipped up a certain interest. And of course, I was baptized already. I had a love for the Lord already, but I think that exposure just clicked something in me. And I began to read a lot, do my own kind of research, my own Bible studies.

And I realized that I was developing a deeper relationship with the Lord, and so I found for myself that fulfillment, that I was getting to know the Lord better day after day. And it came to a point where I’ve now wanted to serve. I now wanted to become engaged more in serving wherever the opportunity was within the GCI environment.

And so, it came more or less as an easy thing, something that I desired for. And so, it wasn’t a difficult thing to take up the role when I was one day offered the opportunity to become an elder. Earlier to that I was a deacon. I had served as a deacon for some time in one congregation, and I was then made an elder about seven years ago.

And so that is, for me, the core of it—was just the interest and of course, the Holy Spirit working in me and through me to bring me to the point where I had a natural interest to be in ministry.

Cara: Yes. And thank you so much for sharing that experience and even your own way of recounting how you responded to a sense of calling.

As you share a little bit of your story with us, Richard, it sounds like you had a number of people that really poured into you that really walked alongside you, not just as a disciple, but as you were developed as a leader.

And when we talk about in GCI, the four E’s engaging, equipping, empowering, and encouraging you had it, it sounds like a robust experience of that in GCI Ghana. So how have those experiences shaped who you are as a leader today, as you pastor these two congregations?

Richard: I think what they have done—the upbringing or the training and the mentoring that I received has made me develop into an experienced person.

It has made me develop into one who has learned to work with teams. So, the drive from the national pastor is that we work as teams in our local congregations. So yes, these are two different congregations I am pastoring and I have other colleague pastors that I am working with. And then we have Avenue champions that we’re working with.

But because of that team-based kind of leadership that we are being encouraged to work in, it makes the work easier. And so there are two separate congregations that I’m able to share my time with both sides. I am able to get feedback. I’m able to really enjoy the work because it’s not burdensome.

Any job you’re doing or any work you’re doing has its ups and down, but it’s not burdensome because you have people who also love the Lord, people who also share the same passion, and together you are able to do the work of God without much stress. And indeed, when the love of God is at work in everyone, life becomes easier because everyone bears a little bit of the burden of the other.

And so in all of this, back to your question, I think when it comes to equipping us, there were intentional efforts made available for young leaders to get equipped. So, there was a seminary training. There was the monthly upcoming leaders’ seminar for speakers or speaker seminar. There was the opportunity to be to join the national pastor, go out and preach somewhere.

There were intentional efforts put in place, and so at the end of the day you didn’t find yourself stranded. If you had a challenge, you just reached out to your lead pastor or whoever was supervising you, and you had that support.

Again, I’ll touch on the environment. The fact that there is this brotherly and loving environment, for me, it’s one of the best things that we have in GCI. That our leaders are friendly, fatherly, or brotherly (and sisterly for lady pastors we have), we are able to relate very well. And no one despises you because of your age, that you are a young one.

Everyone is helping you rise up. And for me that is very important for our environment here. I had the opportunity to become the board chairman for the Ghana Church, and it was a big surprise. I didn’t see it coming, but somehow it came. I got nominated onto the board.

And I was a member of the board, served a couple of years, and then I got elected as the board chair. And the faith and trust that senior pastors had in the youngest member on board there, was very encouraging. And I think it’s something that I thank God for, that people far more experienced than you can be patient with you to listen to you and help you become molded into someone better. And that is the privilege I have enjoyed.

Cara: Amen. I join you in praising God for that. And as we come to the end of our time on the podcast today, what final words would you, or advice, what do you want our listeners to know about developing leaders?

Richard: Number one, we must be intentional. Number two, we must take away the barriers or possible barriers that can hinder people with potential from moving up or coming forward to participate in the service or in leadership. And number three, we must make sure that the environment is loving. It’s having the Spirit of God at work, and we must allow the Spirit of God to work through us.

And I think when the Spirit of God is at work, it’s obvious that a loving environment will begin to be seen. And people are able to operate best when they know they are not going to be crucified for their slips and their errors.

And so for me, those are the important things I think any congregation or any team needs, especially a church organization needs the intentional drive and then the removal of barriers. In my case, paying for some of the courses I had to attend was taken up by the church. It was a barrier to me. I couldn’t have afforded some of them. And so, the church offered to help me knowing that I was not in the position to support myself in that way. And over the years, it has yielded the benefits that the church wanted or God wanted to come out of me.

So those are the things that I think are important. And I’d like to thank you for this opportunity to share my experience. Thank you.

Cara: No, I’d like to thank you. This has been some wonderful insights. I really am thankful for you to share your experience and I praise God for the experience that you’ve been able to have and for those final words of encouragement and advice to our listeners.

I join you in continuing to be in prayer for our congregations in Ghana. As well as, for our younger leaders that are coming up and that we create environments of love and intentionality for them to step into the spaces and the people that God has created them to be.

Thank you so much, Richard, for joining us today. It has been an absolute pleasure.

That’s all we’ve got for today, folks. Until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the GC Podcast. We hope you have found value in it to become a healthier leader. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic, or if there is someone who you think we should interview, email us at info@gci.org. Remember, Healthy Churches start with healthy leaders; invest in yourself and your leaders.

The post The 4 Es of Ministry Development w/ Amiyo Bacher & Richard Ablordeppey first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Process of Development w/ Greg Williams

Welcome to the GC Podcast. A podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to this episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today I am blessed to have GCI President, Greg Williams, join us. Welcome, Greg.

Greg: Thank you, Cara. Great to be here.

Cara: I’m so glad to have you join us today. We’re going to be jumping into talking about a process of development. Now in the last episode, folks, we talked about, how do we define the 4 Es? Engage, equip, empower, encourage. If you haven’t checked that out yet, go check out that episode as a refresher before you dive into this.

But today we’re really going to be looking at that bigger picture. What happens when you put all those pieces together and really live it out as a process of development.

I’d love to just go on ahead and dive right on in. We always, when we think about our practices in ministry, we always come back to the who and the why. I’m wondering, can you tell us where do we see the embodiment of a process of development in the life of Jesus?

Greg: Cara, I think you see it almost throughout.

Even when he began his public ministry, and he had selected those that were going to be his disciples. I think of Andrew had met him, and Andrew went and told his brother, Peter, you need to come and see, you need to come and see.

And Jesus just invited them. It was a process of invitation and relationship: come and be with me. And then throughout, as he begins to work with them and to build that camaraderie with them. They get to see him doing miracles. They get to see him interacting, sometimes in some pretty hostile situations, Pharisees questioning him, situations where he’s put to the test.

But there are times too when Jesus says, no, we’re going to work through you. I think of the feeding of the 5,000. I wrote an article—it’ll be in Update next year, put in a little plug here—but just talking about that one episode of the feeding of the 5,000.

Again, he asked them on the front end, the crowd’s hungry. And one of the disciples says, we don’t have that kind of money. We just couldn’t afford to be able to feed this crowd. And then Peter looks around, says there’s this kid who has a basket with loaves and fishes. And so, this is something to start with.

And for Jesus, doesn’t matter how small, he can work with it. But the miracle that took place there happened in their hands as they distributed and even when they collected at the end. What’s amazing is they took up 12 baskets. How many disciples were there?

Cara: I think there’s 12.

Greg: I think so. So, they got a takeaway meal for themselves too. But Jesus was always good to include them, to get their input, to get their involvement. And they got to see how he operated with people. They got to learn to imitate the way he was, his being with other people.

And then, finally at the end, he says, I’m going away, and I will send the Spirit. But he felt confident. Now, were they fully prepared to jump into being apostles? I don’t know. But Christ felt like they were. And again, they were going to learn as they go too.

And that’s the beauty of how Jesus even trusts us too. Most of us, when we jump into ministry, we feel so underqualified. We feel so inexperienced and out of our depth, and yet in his faithfulness and through the power of the Spirit working in us, that’s to me the real magic of what happens in this process.

Cara: Yeah, that’s a really good word.

And so, we could even say that Jesus, he’s the perfect developer when we look at his earthly ministry and the way he really invested in the lives of the 12 and who they were becoming as they walked alongside him.

Greg: Yes, they were. And I think we have to look at this as not just some kind of a project. This is not something where it becomes mechanical. It really is discipleship all the way through and the reliance that we have on knowing that Jesus truly is the head of the church. The Holy Spirit is our faithful guide even throughout this process.

But then we get to be shoulder to shoulder with other human beings too, who are different from each other. Some are gifted in certain ways. Some have different personalities, different life experiences, but we all have that commonality that we really want to point people to Jesus. We really are about being citizens of the kingdom and pointing toward that reality of what Jesus proclaimed as what he’s about: the kingdom that will be coming in its fullness. We are already citizens of that kingdom. So, this process is all leading into that direction.

Cara: Yeah. That’s good.

And you talk about that process. Talk to us a little bit more about that term process, because there’s a lot of processes in the world. What kind of process are we talking about when we say a process of development?

Greg: Yes. I think that’s a great question because people who know me—and again I have the opportunity as the president of the church to travel around, and I get to meet, not just in the US but around the world. And they know that my voice, one of my primary voices is that of pioneer.

So, they think of me, let’s go forward, let’s push forward. And I do want to see progress for the church. I really do. I think Paul says that we want to press forward to the high mark of the calling we have in Christ Jesus. And some of the things in the past, we need to move on from some of the things in the past.

But a process to me—I was going to use the example of an old cassette tape recorder. I hope for our younger audience that you know what I’m talking about.

Cara: If not, they can Google it.

Greg: Yeah, Google that. You could go on YouTube and see what one looks like.

But like with a cassette tape, with it going forward, you’re putting it in play, and you can go forward. You can even fast forward. Sometimes you can, I don’t like this song, so I’ll jump forward to the next song, type of thing. But there’s also a time to pause. Sometimes we need to pause and reflect.

And there are times, it’s wow, I didn’t quite catch that. So, we rewind, we go back. And we go back to a place that we had already covered before, but we need to cover it again.

So, process involves all those stages. It’s not just always, fast forward or trying to move at a pace that’s too fast for the group. Because in a process, if the individual leader is out too far ahead, the old adage is, if you get too far ahead, you start to look like the enemy out there. You don’t look like the leader anymore.

So, we have to be careful. And to me, that rhythm process means there’s a rhythm of how we go about doing this. It’s in community with others, but it’s also really in a sense of seeing where the Spirit’s leading, what the Spirit’s doing. That’s why we have to hit that pause button and come back and say, okay, what have we seen the Spirit doing? What has happened and what does that mean for us and for going forward?

So even as we try to see what the Spirit’s doing and try to make plans, we always want to come down to the conclusion: it seems good to the Spirit and to us. We always want to use that as our filter for what we do.

Cara: Yeah, absolutely. And I love what you had said previously too, that it’s not like a mechanical kind of process. Because what you’ve just described, even with this visual of the cassette, it’s organic.

It’s dynamic. You need to be in discernment with the Spirit about in this moment, in this season. Do we pause? Do we fast forward a little bit? Do we rewind? And it’s not—I talk a little about a cut and paste, a copy and paste, or input/output. But it’s: what is God doing in this moment?

What does this process look like in this moment because of what he’s doing and how we’re participating?

Greg: Yes. A process requires community and relationship, doesn’t it? There’s a sense that we have to check in with each other. We have to share ideas with each other, observations with each other, and to hopefully draw conclusions together, again, under the leadership of the Holy Spirit.

And there’s times that we may not always get it quite right. We think we see something, and we go in that direction, and it doesn’t always work out the way we want. But God’s merciful. Those are learning opportunities.

I hope we don’t get caught into some of the metrics of the world, like this is a success and this is a failure. No, all the things we’re doing in ministry, they are learning opportunities. Some will be more fruitful than others.

I love what Paul says when he writes to the Corinthians, and he talks about the work that we’re involved in, and Paul calls himself a master builder. Paul was not an architect. Paul was not an engineer. He did make tents on the side to support himself financially. But he called himself a master builder because he was building on the right foundation, which is Jesus. And he was doing it with Jesus by the power of the Spirit.

But he says, when we build, we need to be careful about how we build and what are we building with. Is it precious metals and costly stones? Or is it wood, straw, hay, stubble, this kind of thing? And he says that some of the things we do, they’re going to get burned up.

And that’s okay in the greater scheme of things. But some of the things that we do in ministry, as we participate with him, some of the things are going to echo into eternity as well, which gets me excited to think about.

How do we best stay in tune with what the Spirit is doing and in tune with one another, so we are building with the precious metals in the costly stones? That we are participating in things that are going to last? That’s my prayer for GCI. That in our processes, that we have that kind of discernment through the power of the Holy Spirit, that we’re able to see those things that really are meaningful and that will make an eternal difference.

Cara: Amen. And that makes me think too, that I want to come back to, you had mentioned development alongside as discipleship. And I think that’s important because that’s really what we’re talking about when we talk about a process of development. It’s really entwined; it can’t be separated from discipleship.

Can you talk to us a little bit more about that? Because that’s part of the stuff that’s eternal.

Greg: It is. Again, that’s building as a master builder like Paul did. When Jesus said that to go and to make disciples and he would be with us always, he didn’t say, just go make converts. He didn’t say, just go and have people win arguments and try to help them understand the truth of who I am. The Holy Spirit does that conviction. Anyway, I don’t know about you, Cara, but I don’t know that I’ve ever fully persuaded or convicted anybody too much of anything.

But I do see how the Holy Spirit does that, and I love being able to participate in that process. But it is a process, like we were saying, and discipleship is a lifetime journey. It’s not a one-time decision. It’s not something [like] the “one and done,” and check that box; that’s over with. Discipleship is a lifelong journey.

I think of even the example of Jesus. As we record this, we’re in the season of Advent now. And we’re thinking about Jesus coming and the incarnation of him coming in the flesh. In Luke’s recording of the birth, he goes on and even to him being taken to the temple and the dedication and the things that happened. And it says that he grew in stature, in favor, both with God and man, I’m thinking, how amazing is that?

The second member of the Godhead, Jesus himself, in the flesh, was growing and learning and developing. So, if that’s true for Jesus, how much more is that true for us? So, this is really the foundation of when we’re talking about discipleship and development.

We are talking about growing in stature, in favor, both with God and with man. That’s exciting to think about.

Cara: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think about even how that is one of the powerful things about that idea of process or a journey of development—this idea that we don’t ever arrive. There’s always more of who we are in Christ, that who he’s called us to be, that we can grow into, that is more left to explore.

And having this idea of processes, oh, we didn’t just check that box and now we’re done. But we are lifelong learners. Lifelong disciples.

Greg: We are, and I think of the context. If we can see what we’re called to in our relationship with Christ, with our relationship within the community, the church, if we can see it as a great adventure. I think so often, a lot of times Christians will see this life of struggle. And yes, it does include struggle. We’re not going to sugarcoat that. It’s not that there aren’t struggles. We are in a fallen world. We’re going to face some pain and suffering. That comes with the human experience.

But what we’re called to—and again, I said earlier, the whole sense of seeing even out further than what we’re doing right now today. But what is the fullness of the reality to come, the fullness of the kingdom that we’re called to be a part of? We’re kingdom citizens right now. Do we live in that reality that that’s really who we are? We belong to Jesus.

And yes, we live in this world. You and I are citizens here of North Carolina. We have to follow the rules and the regulations and pay our taxes and all those things that come with it. But this is not my home. This is my temporary home. The reality of what I’m called to be a part of, that reality is “already, but not yet.” So, we live in that tension.

So again, this is what God has designed and created. It’s hard for our minds to fully grasp the “already, but not yet.” So, let’s stretch your minds a little bit.

But for the present, being here in the flesh, being in time and in space, it means we have another day to live and to grow. And that’s what development is. I hope that all of us think of our life as being lifelong learners. That we are, again, like I said, growing in that stature, in favor with God and with man. We’re not called to be static.

Cara: Yes. No, that’s excellent. And even what you’re saying, it shows us what the almost—not to use to metric kind of terms—but what is the target of our growth? What’s the aim of our growth too?

It’s not just, I need to do this task, or I need to have this kind of success to find in this … whatever kind of earthly way. But our aim of growth is something that is eternal. It is something of a kingdom that’s going to last forever. It is something in Christ who is life itself.

And he’s just everything. It’s not just, oh yeah, I just got to do this thing, let me develop for that. But I’m developing into the person that the Creator made me to be. That’s pretty special.

Greg: It is. It truly is. God has created and designed us all uniquely.

We have, like I say, different personalities, different capacities, different passions—this type of thing. But I would throw out a bit of a warning because we live in such an individualistic society. We don’t necessarily always see the value of being part of community and how that is.

I think we all want to come to the place that we know who we are in Christ. First of all, Christ is the one who gets our worship. It’s so easy for us to turn back around on ourselves and think, okay, it’s a good day when God’s will matches up to my will.

We have to really mean it when we pray, thy will be done. We really have to come to rest in that and to know that yeah, we are in his hands. I’ve always found it interesting when people pray, “We’ll put him in God’s hands,” like we’re not already there. But we’re already there. We live and breathe according to his will. So, we need to relax in that and to live into that, so that we don’t get too self-important.

But we also need to think about—part of our role in this whole process of ministry development, to think about the other. Who are they? Because a lot of times people don’t see themselves clearly.

They see themselves with labels that other people have put on them. A lot of times they’ve been beaten down. They haven’t had a lot of opportunity in their life, and some of their experiences have been negative experiences.

And so, they just don’t really quite see who they are, but to help them come alive to see who they are—that they are a child of God, that they are loved. There is a place at the table for them, but even to come into the reality that there are spiritual gifts—that God gives out these gifts. And the Holy Spirit is like the director of all of this, and some people have a gift of service, some of leadership, some of generosity.

There’s various gifts that people have. What Paul says in Romans 12, if you have a particular gift, then really lean into that. Go ahead and live that out. Be the person God created you to be. And our role in ministry, especially with pastors, those who are Avenue champions, we need to help people see what God’s doing in their life, but where they fit in the body and the life of the church too.

The process involves helping people find their best fit. And boy, isn’t that great? Wouldn’t it be amazing to see a congregation where it is a priesthood of all believers? And wouldn’t it be fantastic to see everybody fitting in a spot that really is living out who they are in Christ and serving out of that? I know that sounds idealistic, but why not? Why shouldn’t we be idealistic?

Cara: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And as you say that, I come back to this idea of when we think about development, really it’s God who is the author of where we’re developing to, what’s the direction of our development. Because even as you say that, we come back to the importance of discernment in community and the active role of the Spirit as we’re doing this.

Because who am I to say what part of the body I am? Just because I want to be the hand, doesn’t mean that I am. Just because I want somebody else to fill a certain role because maybe that’s what I need right now in the church, doesn’t mean that is how they’ve been fashioned, right? And we do need to, like you said, see people well, see people clearly as part of this process in community and in discernment and not act out of our own needs or our own desires.

But let God be the one that’s showing us: wait, what’s the direction of this development? What’s the direction of this discipleship in community?

Greg: So, ministry is not a contest, it’s not a competition. It really is fitting where you fit, and part of that even does come back to a person’s passions too.

We have to be careful. It’s a tricky thing because it’s in community that gifts are confirmed. People will think that they want to be this, or they’ll have an aspiration. And some people may be good at a certain ministry skill or practice. They may be good at that, but it may not be life-giving to them. And it may be that that’s just not where they fit.

I’ve often thought in our church, when I was pastoring, because I was working primarily with volunteers, occasionally I would have an intern who might be paid who I could work with a lot more directly and be more intentional with, especially with their time because they were paid in that role.

But volunteers, you have to be careful. You don’t want to over overtax them, overwork them. But there are those volunteers who are eager, they’re going to say yes to a lot of things. And that’s not bad. But sometimes we have to help them see, they may have an aspiration for a certain aspect of ministry.

I’ll use myself as an example. I love music. I love praise worship. I love to sing with other believers. But I love to be in a bigger crowd because I don’t sing so well. I don’t know that I’m tone deaf, but I know that I’m not going to do a solo in church. Okay?

That’s for the love of everybody who’s in the audience listening. Okay. I know that’s not my gift. It doesn’t mean it’s not my passion, because music is really a passion for me. But I have to understand that I’m really more of a music appreciator than I am someone who has that ability. Maybe in my glorified body I’ll—maybe God will do something to my vocal cords and my ability to hear the tones that maybe that will be healed as well.

I hope so. But even with the host of angels, I can sing to the top of my lungs because their voices will drown mine out. But I think we all have to be careful with that. And that’s why in community we care for one another in that way.

So, this process that we’re talking about, as we’re interacting, we can help people to see, that that’s great that you have a desire for that, but let’s think about where you really bring the best of who you are. And how’s that going to work together as a body of believers.

There’s some people who want to be greeters at church. I’m often thinking of that role, and a greeter is really there to have a smiling face, a welcoming face, but to help people move along. There’s the information table. The coffee’s over here. You might want to get seats in the sanctuary, we fill up. This kind of thing. The greeters who just were to stop and have a conversation with everybody, they’re not really doing their job well. They need to be behind the coffee table. They need to be sprinkled in other places, but you see what I’m saying? Sometimes people have this notion that this is a good fit for me. Let’s be humble enough to let the confirmation from the body help us to see where we fit.

Cara: That’s right. And even as we’re talking, I hope one of the things that’s coming to life or becoming more apparent is that a process of development is very nuanced. It is very dynamic. It is not mechanical at all.

It’s very relational, very much a part of the journey of discipleship and done in discernment, in community. And one of the things that we’ve done in GCI is we’ve put together the 4 Es—engage, equip, empower, encourage—as maybe a guiding framework as a process of development.

But it is definitely not, “Here’s 1, 2, 3, 4,” as our listeners should hopefully hear in the conversation we’re having. But part of the Spirit of that is that we’re encouraging ourselves to be intentional with our processes of development.

Greg: I’m glad you said that.

The word intentional. See, sometimes people get this notion because we are a spiritual organism—the church is a community of faith. We know that. But sometimes people, I think they don’t go deep enough, that somehow that means things are just going to happen. And that it’s going to be organic, that that all sounds good to us.

Now, there’s a certain sense that, does God make plans? What do you think?

Cara: Even organic things need to get planted, right?

Greg: They do. We could talk about this all day. But I think back, even in Genesis, it talked about how the Spirit was hovering. There was this time of just thoughtful consideration. And what was going to happen with the creation story and this type of thing. And things don’t just poof, magically appear. And relationships are not that way either. We have to be intentional about that.

We talked about the relational side of the 4 Es but being relational also does mean being intentional too. We have to make ourselves available, and I think, at least my experience speaks to this—I believe that the God has gifted me to see talents and abilities in other people.

I feel like God’s given me that ability to invite people in. You can call that sponsor, mentorship, or something like that, if you want to put a label to it, but to invite people in. And even Jesus when he said, send them, sending them out two by two, he knew there was a dynamic there.

They’re stronger together. But there’s also this learning that takes place because two people are not just alike. Two people are going to be a little bit different and a big part of sending them out when he did in that original sending, was partly because witness, each of them had their own story of how they knew Jesus, of how Jesus had transformed them and their life.

And there’s nuance in that too, isn’t there? So, the witness of two people is stronger than the witness of one person. So, the testifying of how they knew Jesus, it actually was stronger going out two by two.

But there’s something about sharing in that process of going two by two as well. That’s why oftentimes when we’re talking about the 4 Es and how we do this, don’t do ministry alone. Include someone else. And especially if it’s someone who’s new and eager and showing some potential, help them with that.

But don’t treat them as in a way like, they’re here to do my bidding for me. Don’t look at them in the sense of like, okay, here’s a need and I’m going to fill this need with this person. Be loving and careful enough to understand that they may need exposure to some ministry opportunities to find out really what they are good at and some exposure to find what they truly are passionate about too.

They may go through some experience with you and it’s, eh, that’s just not for me. That’s just not my thing, and that’s okay. That’s part of the learning, but you see the intentionality in that too.

Those of us who’ve been around a while, that we have the ability to invite others in and to bring them along. It requires that we actually be intentional. We’ve got our eyes open. We’re seeing these people. We’re open to the invitation and come and let’s do this together and experience this together.

Just like Jesus said, come and be with me. Come and watch me. Come and participate with me. Now you go and do these things. It just works so well when you do it relationally.

Cara: No, absolutely. That intentionality in the relationship. I think bears a lot of fruit and the way that I think about the 4 Es is maybe even less of a checklist and more of a check in.

It is check in on your intentionality.

Greg: It is, but there’s a flow to it as well. We’re not just going to take that newest person that we really don’t know much about. They may just be a new believer, and they’re learning just how to establish their walk with Christ.

Paul talks about that a lot in his writings. There’s a time when you only need the milk of the word. You’re not ready for the meat yet. They’re still growing in their understanding.

And I’m not waiting for someone to be a Christian for 10 years before they participate either. You can be extreme in this, but we don’t just all of a sudden empower somebody that we don’t know, that we’ve not built some relationship with, some confidence with.

But over time, if we really go through the 4 Es, the beginning of the engagement and—even in the engagement doesn’t mean that they can’t participate on certain levels. They can still do some things. They can come and help and be a part of the life of the church. There’s no reason that they can’t do that. But you’re not going to have them up giving a sermon their second week, at a church service. That’s not what we’re going to do.

I think, again, the word discernment comes into play. We’re being intentional, but we’re also being discerning. I don’t mind giving people to do something that they’re going to feel that the task is bigger than them. That’s okay to give them a challenge. But have we done some preparation that they don’t even realize that they’re as prepared as they are?

When you put people in that opportunity, that there’s already been some preparation done. Even when Jesus said he sent them out and then when they came back with the reports, they came back with mixed messages. There were times they were received well. There were times when we met with opposition, and it didn’t go so well. And Jesus says, that’s okay.

And that’s true in this process today in ministry as well, with the ones that we’re working with. Let’s make time to review.

That’s part of being intentional again, isn’t it? It’s back to the cassette tape. Let’s hit the pause button. Let’s take the time to process what happened. What did you experience? Where did you meet Jesus? And what are our next steps? Where do we go from here?

So, there’s that continual processing that goes on. So, when you say, “process of development,” the word process has a whole package of meaning, doesn’t it?

Cara: It sure does. And even what you’re saying, I think, that that’s what I mean, even as a check-in is an intentionality check-in for myself as somebody who may be developing, as an example. Am I being intentional in my development or am I being haphazard? Am I letting somebody who has been here for two weeks give the sermon? If I check back in, do an intentionality check-in, oh, maybe I didn’t engage them very well yet.

And so, it’s less checklist-y of, oh, am I just doing this? But it’s a tool for reflection of: are we thoroughly, intentionally going through this process?

Greg: It is. When we say process, all the 4 Es—so engaged. Back to Jesus and working with the disciples, it’s one thing to have them set the group of 5,000 into seating arrangements and then to pass the basket of food and to take up the basket of food. That’s more task oriented. It’s a little bit different of standing up on the day of Pentecost and giving a message of what they’ve been experiencing with the coming of the Holy Spirit.

Those have different levels, don’t they?

And so, there’s a certain sense in the engagement process that we are putting our toe in the wading pool, so to speak, but we’re not asking people to do a back flip off the high dive into the deep end into the pool, and they don’t know how to swim. We’re not going to do that. So, the 4 Es keep us accountable in that way.

So, we go from engagement to where there’s just the relationship-building, the introduction. And then going to the equipping stage is a little more involved because in the equipping, we see that to where there’s going to be true mentoring happening. Come and follow me as I follow Christ. The imitation we’re talking about.

There’s also going to be a little more of a push toward the growth in their development. In terms of even being students of the Bible, learning how to be more engaged in spiritual disciplines and just learning the depth of walking with Christ. It takes time. That doesn’t happen overnight.

And we go through that process and that’s a big part of the equipping. And we get to the place too, where we see that, boy, the Lord’s really working in this person’s life. And now we start giving them meaningful things to do. We start empowering them. And in that empowerment stage, it doesn’t mean that now we just exit the building.

They still need—I know, I even, at my stage, I still need people who have eyes on that see what I’m doing. I still need a sense of accountability. I also need to know what I’m doing is meaningful, that it’s making a difference. So not just accountability, but even approval.

We need that. We all need that. And to know that they’re attentive, that they’re approving, that bleeds over to the encouragement stage, doesn’t it? The encouragement stage is not always just pats on the back and you’re doing a great job. That’s a big part of it, but it’s also bringing some challenging questions too.

Like, “I see you’re doing this, you’re engaged here. You’re not so engaged there. Explain to me what’s happening,” to create some of the challenge too. Our mantra in GCI … you know what it is. Tell me what it is.

Cara: Oh, high support. High challenge. Grace always.

Greg: Amen and it works. I mean that applies in all these situations.

So, at all stages of all the 4 Es, the high support, the high challenge, and doing it in grace, it works. And again, why does it work? Because it’s the way of Jesus. That’s why it works. It’s the way of Jesus.

Cara: Yeah. And speaking of it working, back to the intentionality in relationships being fruitful, what are some of the things that you expect we’ll start to see as we really live out these processes and the life of the local church?

Greg: We talk about a culture of liberation. There’s a freedom when people are really able to thrive in who they are in Christ and to do that in community. There is a sense of freedom that really points back to who Jesus is. We really become true ambassadors for him because we really are. It’s his light being reflected through us, is what it is.

And I just see that transforming our church. Our vision has been healthy church. This is a big part of what we’re talking about with Healthy Church. This becomes a culture too. This is not just a programmatic piece, and we’re going to try this for a couple years and see where it goes.

Now we’re talking about transformational things here. We’re talking about participation with Jesus through the Spirit is what we’re talking about. If that’s really happening and we see that in the life of the church, this is where it’s going to lead us to. It will lead to a priesthood of all believers.

It will lead to the sense and care for others that we want them to find their best fit. It will be to me, like I say, liberating, because now even as a pastor, you’re not pastor centric. You’re not trying to carry the weight of everything. You become that liberator.

Hopefully, as this gets built out over time, you really become the cheerleader for your church. You’re the great encourager. If all the Es are being done—not just by the Pastor, Avenue champions, the other ministry leaders—if they’re all following these same processes and that’s happening at multiple levels, the pastor can be the preacher of the gospel and the encourager of the group.

Man alive, if I could—I’m feeling a call to pastoral ministry again, Cara.

Cara: No, I’m sure.

Greg: No, like I say I don’t want to make it sound like it’s an easy 1, 2, 3. It’s not. It’s not at all because real life happens. People move because of jobs, people die. All those things come in, so the attention to the health of the church is a constant thing that we have to continue to keep our eyes on and stay focused.

Cara: What encouragements, Greg, would you have for those of us who are beginning to live out intentionally this process of development, to embody this rhythm of the 4 Es in the local church?

Greg: Just keep it up. Stay the course. We often think back to, I believe it was Eugene Peterson said it’s a long journey in the same direction. But again, I see it as the great adventure too. Like I say, every day is a new opportunity and so let’s utilize the time that we have and let’s be intentional at the same time, realize it’s not all on our shoulders.

Realize that we really do look to Jesus as the head of the church. We really do look for the empowerment of the Holy Spirit and that discernment, and I just think if we can learn to really, truly put our hope and faith in Christ, but at the same time we show up and participate. I don’t think we can go wrong with that, Cara.

And I think as long as we just, again, the Bible says don’t grow weary in well doing. So, I’m just saying even though there will be challenges and we know there will be. That’s okay. That’s okay. Sometimes it’s those challenges that shape us the most. And it’s sometimes in those challenges, that we meet Jesus even more personally than when things are going well, and things are going smoothly.

So again, we are where we are. God knows where we are. He’s not surprised. He’s not even disappointed. Sometimes we become disappointed. Or we become disillusioned, and we get into a negative space.

You see examples throughout scripture like that. I know Elijah, he had this great—remember the story with the 500 prophets of Baal and this great day of ridding Israel of all these false prophets. And then, his life is threatened by the queen, and he goes and hides in a cave. And he just has a pity party for himself. We can be like Elijah too.

We can go up and down in that way, but then God meets us with a small still voice and God brings relief to us when we need that too. So, he’s a God that does leads us to the valley the shadow of death, but also leads us in the green pastures in the still waters too. He’s such a good God.

Cara: He sure is. He sure is. Yes. And, as we close up our time today in this episode, what final words or thoughts would you share that maybe we haven’t covered yet in terms of a process of development?

Greg: Cara, I think we’re in a good space right now. This past year I’ve traveled to just almost all the regions around the globe in GCI.

I’ve got to meet with leaders from different cultures, from different nations in Africa, to the UK to Canada, to France, in so many places. Beautiful group of people in Fiji I got to visit with. And I’m seeing we really are speaking the same thing. There’s a unity that we’re experiencing right now that we can’t create by our own means.

It really is a spiritual thing. The Holy Spirit really is helping us to stay on the same page, to go in the same direction. It always has to be contextualized based on our culture. It also has to fit what the personality of the group is, and those things have to be nuanced as well.

This is again, not a program. We’re not checking boxes, but we do have a framework. Like you said, you said that well, we have a framework. The Team Based—Pastor Led framework, the Faith, Hope, and Love Avenues to help us to see who Jesus is, how we participate with him in his ministry, because it is his ministry.

So those things have been lining up so well, and I am just thrilled as the president of GCI, I couldn’t ask for more in that way. But I feel like we’re just getting started too.

One of my good friends, pastor Gabriel Ojih, who’s down in the Dallas area, Richardson, Texas, he told me he was here at the [Home] Office not long ago, and he says, Greg, I think the Lord’s really building our capacity right now and preparing us for what he has for us really to do.

And I thought that was a good word. I really resonated with me. I’ve dwelt on that quite a bit and this is what we’re talking about, this process of development is really about building capacity, if we really do transform into a priesthood of all believers, that we’re all actively engaging in the ministry of Jesus. Because I think one of the greatest problems in the Christian world, Cara, is that too many Christians act like consumers, not participants. And there’s a big difference in that.

So, you can use that as a topic for another podcast on another day. But I really believe that’s if we truly are engaging and participating with the living head of the church, with Jesus Christ, there’s nothing better to do. We can’t go wrong with that.

Cara: Amen. That’s a great word to end on. Thank you so much, Greg, for joining us today.

But before I let you go, we do have our little fun segment. So, I’m going to ask you a couple of random questions.

Greg: Uh, oh, this is rapid fire too, isn’t it?

Cara: Yes, it sure is. So, first thing that comes to mind, you just got to shout it out.

So, if you’re ready, I’m ready.

Greg: I guess I’m as ready as I will be.

Cara: All right. What is your favorite holiday tradition?

Greg: Holiday tradition. I love the white elephant exchange at Christmas.

Cara: Ah, yes, that’s a good one. What sport would you compete in if you were in the Olympics?

Greg: I would strive to be a decathlete because I like all those different things.

I was a disco thrower. I was actually a pretty good runner in the day. I don’t know, with the pole vault and the high jump, I’d have to work on those but otherwise, I think I’d do okay.

Cara: Yeah. That’s good. That’s good. Okay. If you had your own late night talk show, who would you invite as your first guest?

Greg: Oh, my goodness. My first guest. I probably would have David Letterman come so that I could learn from him even as I interviewed him.

Cara: Yeah. You got to learn the trade.

Greg: That’s right. Bring in an old pro.

Cara: Almost like you’re getting developed.

Oh. What is the best piece of advice you’ve been given?

Greg: The best piece of advice I’ve been given? Oh me. Follow Jesus, and point others to Jesus. That’s it. Because anything else is less than.

Cara: Amen. And then finally, what is your favorite hobby?

Greg: I would have to say golf. I don’t get to do it as often as I would like, and I’m not as proficient as I would like to be either. But the beauty of golf is, it’s you against the course, not so much you against the other competitors. And every once in a while, you’ll hit a shot that’s just amazing.

I was talking about our good friends in Fiji. The last shot I hit—we played nine holes over there. I love the idea of playing on international courses. And I was using rental clubs too, so it makes it even a little more interesting. But I hit a shot from across the water about 85 yards from the hole that hit up on the green and rolled, and then went into the hole. Yeah, I was pretty excited. I threw the club pretty high in the air and did my little happy dance.

But no, I really enjoyed that because if you play golf, you have to concentrate and leave everything else behind and really devote yourself to the game.

Cara: So, it’s a meditative hobby in that sense.

Greg: It is. Yeah. I was told, and you were talking about advice that you were given, I was told many years ago, and this is true, I think it’s good advice for pastors and ministry, find something you enjoy doing that you lose track of time.

And I think that’s really helpful because we are so engaged, and we can be workaholics and we can get to the place that we burn ourselves out but find something where you lose track of time. And I thought that was really good advice.

Cara: Yeah, that is good advice. All right. We really appreciate you joining us today, Greg.

Thank you so much for all the insights that you’ve shared. And it is our practice with GC Podcast to end the show on a word of prayer. So, would you be up for praying for our churches and pastors, ministry leaders and members in GCI?

Greg: Absolutely. And it’s my pleasure to be here today too, Cara. I always enjoy conversations with you, so let me pray for us.

Father, our Almighty God, Jesus, you are the head of the church. Holy Spirit, you are at work not only unifying us, but energizing us, leading us into truth, giving us ministry ideas. You’re the one who transforms the people around us and you let us participate. What a marvelous thing that we’re able to do, that we’re called into the participation with Father, Son, and Spirit to the ministry of humanity. Thank you so much for inviting us, for engaging us, for also equipping and empowering and encouraging us all the way through, because that comes from you, God. So, help us to be better at those things too. Help us to be better at engaging.

Help us to be better at equipping, empowering, encouraging those new ones who come along and those younger ones who come along. Help us, Lord, to just be a transformed church that really when people see us and participate with us, they’ll say, those folks have been with Jesus. That’s what we want to hear more than anything else.

So, bless our churches, bless our pastors. We thank you that we are a global church in 69 countries across this globe. What an amazing thing and what a gift that is for us in GCI. So once again, Lord, we just say thank you. Thank you for loving us, including us. Thank you for never leaving us and never forsaking us.

And thank you for calling us to this great adventure that we’re a part of in relationship with you. We pray in the awesome name of Jesus, and we do it with enthusiasm and love from our side. Amen.

Cara: Amen. That’s all we’ve got for today, folks. Until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the GC Podcast. We hope you have found value in it to become a healthier leader. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic, or if there is someone who you think we should interview, email us at info@gci.org. Remember, Healthy Churches start with healthy leaders; invest in yourself and your leaders.

The post Process of Development w/ Greg Williams first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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Defining the 4Es w/ Gavin Henderson

Welcome to the GC Podcast. A podcast to help you develop into the healthiest ministry leader you can be by sharing practical ministry experience.

Cara: Join GCI Superintendent of Europe, Gavin Henderson, and I as we discuss the 4Es: engage, equip, empower, and encourage in this GC Podcast episode.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to this episode of GC Podcast.

This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches. I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today I am blessed to have Gavin Henderson here with me, who is the superintendent of Europe and national ministry leader in UK in Ireland. Gavin is married to Sinead and has three children, ages nine, seven, and five.

They live in Market Harborough, UK, which is in the middle of the UK. And we are so glad to have you here with us today, Gavin. Thank you so much for joining us.

Gavin: Hi, Cara. It’s really good to be here too. When I got your invite to do the GC Podcast, I was actually listening to a podcast at the time, so it was quite exciting to have just been listening to a podcast and then get an email from you.

So, I’m quite excited to be doing this.

Cara: Yes. I love that. I love that. And I’m excited for this episode especially because we’re going to be talking about and defining the 4Es, which is engage, equip, empower, and encourage. But before we dive into those definitions specifically, Gavin, could you talk to us a little bit about how the 4Es connect with GCI’s vision of Healthy Church and why that’s important to us.

Gavin: Yeah, sure. So, with Healthy Church, I think a lot of what we’re trying to achieve with Healthy Church is to bring the practice of the church in line with the church’s theology because when the theology and the practice of the church are aligned, that’s really when we’re at our healthiest.

And I think this really plays into the 4Es because one of the things that we’ve learned from our theology is the importance of being Team Based—Pastor Led. And we actually have seen how when you have Team Based—Pastor Led churches, you have this cycle of the Healthy Churches creating healthy leaders who in turn, then support Healthy Churches.

And I think that is a fundamental part of being a Healthy Church, is that you are not just thinking of your own needs, but you are raising up new leaders and new people to help and participate in the life of the church. And so, the 4Es are really a rhythm of Healthy Church.

And I think sometimes we can make it very complicated. But if we think about our call as Christians to make disciples, really this is what the 4Es is about. It’s about the multiplication of disciples which in turn helps feed into ministry leaders and the ministry itself. And I think this is a foundational part of the church. And obviously, the pastor has a key role in this aspect, but it’s not just the pastor’s responsibility.

Really, you want to see this going on throughout the whole life of the church—throughout all the Avenues, everywhere across the health of the church. You want to see discipleship-making. You want to see people not just turning up to church, but participating in the life of the church, growing in their roles in the church, and the church growing as a result of that.

I think the 4Es are really a key dynamic of the Healthy Church and the Team Based—Pastor Led model, which is very much what we’ve been talking about for a while now in GCI.

Cara: Yeah, absolutely. And I love how you say, Gavin, bringing together and in alignment our theology and our practice and the life of the church, because that really is the 4Es, like you said. It really is just living the life of disciples making disciples, the mission of the church.

And so that really is what we’re about. What a Healthy Church looks like is living according to the purpose of the church of Jesus Christ. And the 4Es is just a framework that helps guide us to do that. I really appreciate how you put that. And it is something that is an important thing for us to look at, to help support us in that participation in the mission of the church.

I do want us to take a closer look at what we even mean when we say engage and equip, empower and encourage. Because sometimes we can say words, and we think we mean the same thing when we say them, but maybe we don’t. And so, let’s look a little bit at engage, the first of the 4Es.

How do we define engage in the life of the local church, Gavin?

Gavin: I think engage is really quite a critical one. They’re all very important, but I think with engage, it really starts with relationships. And I think the root of engaging and bringing people into leadership or into roles in the church, you can’t skip the relationship stage.

And as you build relationships with people, what it’s really about is inviting them to be a part of what Jesus is doing in their life, in the church life, and in the world around them. And really, if we go back to the overall thing of what we’re trying to achieve, if we look at the Gospels, we look at how Jesus interacts with people, we see that he had relationships with his disciples. And very much the engage element, we can see in the Gospel passages themselves, where he works with the disciples and basically invites them to be a part of what he’s doing.

And I think that is a key part of what engage is about. So, it’s an intentional discipleship and recruitment. So, it’s not just building relationships, but it’s then recognizing people that you want to draw into intentional discipleship and then maybe recruit for a particular role, when you recognize some of the giftings they have, for example.

And part of this is recognizing that when we think of the church, when we think of the body of Christ, everybody is a part of the body of Christ for a reason. God has a plan for all of us, and he’s invited us into his church.

He’s called us into the church, and we all have a gifting and a calling and an invite into participation. And part of what engaging is it’s interacting with that invite into participation. It’s helping, drawing people into deeper discipleship, deeper relationships and roles within the church.

Cara: Yeah. Gavin, thank you so much. I really appreciate you mentioning the importance of the engage aspect of the 4Es and how relationship-building is really foundational, and how we even see that in the life of Jesus and his earthly ministry. That’s so key.

It’s not just being entertaining or fun to be around, but it’s being relational in the way that we’re created in the image of God to be relational. And then drawing into a deeper way of being with people and being disciples, one with another and participating in what God is doing. And so, I think that is a really excellent way to be thinking about that engaged part of the 4Es.

And so, if we think about defining engage in that way, the natural next question that I have is, who do we engage in that way?

Gavin: Yeah, so I think sometimes we can be too narrow in our scope over who we think should or should not be engaged. And I think it’s important that we keep our eyes open to what the Spirit is doing, not only in our lives, but in the lives of people are around us. And really, we can engage everyone to some degree.

But certainly, when we think of our church, there’s specific people in our church that sometimes we can see engage members and leaders to bring them into that next step of, in terms of discipleship and leadership. And sometimes, that’s exploring new areas of calling or along those lines.

But really, we don’t need to limit ourselves to that because we can also engage the people in our neighborhood, particularly when we think of missional engagement and engaging in the area of the Love Avenue, for example. Because often, there you are working with people in your neighborhood and we don’t need to wait until they become Christians before we build that relationship and start inviting them to participate in what the church is doing, what Jesus is doing in their neighborhood.

I think it’s important that we don’t become too narrow in the focus over who we can engage.

Cara: Absolutely. And what I think is really important in what you’ve said is, what God is doing is dynamic. His presence with us is dynamic. And we continue to discern as he moves in our midst.

And as you mentioned with maybe current members or leaders, maybe in a different season, he’s moving in a different way in their lives or in that church community and then in the neighborhood even still, he’s moving.

And if we come back to thinking about, like you mentioned, the life of Jesus in his earthly ministry, he just called people off the street, and said, Hey, follow me. And called them to participate in what he was doing. And then formation happened from there. Then incredible things happened from there, but that engagement happened in a way that we might think of, in our modern context, as a missional engagement in the neighborhood.

And so, I think that’s really key that you mentioned, let’s not be so narrow or think so inside the box of who we can engage, but always be engaging and having that ear to who God may be nudging us to engage in this particular way. And how is he drawing us in and how is he moving in our midst?

And you know what, one of the things that I think when we define these different terms is, it’s one thing to have a head knowledge, but it’s another thing to think about what it looks lived out, and real life with flesh on it.

And so, when is a time that you’ve seen engagement done well, Gavin?

Gavin: There’s one example that probably stands out for me, which is in relation to somebody in one of our Scottish congregations and his wife was the worship leader—is the worship leader in the congregation. And her parents were both very active in the church, but he was actually at the time not interested in religion, not interested in faith.

But what happened, because she would often be involved in preparing for the worship the next day, he started to give her a hand in helping her prepare the worship the next day, in terms of the technical side of things that needed to be done. And then over time, that extended to him coming up to set up at church for her the next day.

And then over time, he ended up staying for the service. And now he’s a very committed Christian, a part of the community. The key thing with that is the relationship was there. It wasn’t a shortcut, it wasn’t rushed.

But he was able to find himself being drawn into the life of the church. And that’s really what helped him understand who he was in Christ. And we may not always have as dramatic a call as that when we try and engage people, but I think it shows that sometimes we do think quite narrowly when it comes to engaging.

And when you do engage, and you recognize what people have to offer, certainly, that’s something that people appreciate, knowing that somebody has seen them and recognized what they have to offer. And I think that when it’s done well, when it’s engaged well, it can be very powerful when you see how the life of the person involved is transformed.

And there is a transformation that comes via the 4Es. That, I think, is one of the exciting things about engaging this tool and mythology for the church.

Cara: Yes. And in the story that you’ve shared and even in part of how you’ve defined engage, what I think is important for us not to miss is in the relationship-building, the seeing of the person and what God has given them to offer, that really makes a difference. [Rather] than when we recruit just out of what we think is a need of the ministry or the church. Because then we can engage people out of a sense of, maybe I just need to use you as a gear in this machine versus who is God forming you to be in his church, in his kingdom?

And that’s where you see that transformation that you’re talking about versus I just need another chess piece on the board to keep this church programming going. And I think that’s a really beautiful example that you’ve shared, Gavin. Thank you so much for sharing that with us.

Gavin: Yeah. I certainly agree with what you’ve just said there, Cara. Because I think sometimes as well with the engage, if we only engage out of need, the problem is people can see it coming. If the only time the pastor speaks to you is when they need something, you see it as soon as they approach.

And that’s true of the worship leader. It’s true of all the Avenues. If the person is only approaching you because they need something, it doesn’t feel right, and people pick up on that. But if you have this relationship and if you approach them and recognize what they have to offer, then it’s very different from just trying to supply a need and people respond to that.

Because if you are caught up and you end up serving out of need, you always have that doubt in your head about whether you are really the right person for the job or whether you should be doing it. And that affects your whole outlook when it comes to whatever role you are serving in the church.

Cara: That’s a really good insight.

Gavin: That’s the first E. If we move on to the second E (equip), how can we define equip?

Cara: Yeah. So, when we think about the word equip, the Webster’s dictionary definition is supply with the necessary items for a particular purpose. And I think in this instance, that definition can actually help us with defining what equip means for us in the 4Es within our Healthy Church vision.

Because when I think about equipping within the 4Es and in ministry participation, Team Based—Pastor Led ministry, I think about it as like a holistic providing of experiences and tools and information or knowledge for the purpose of growing in participation in the ministry of Christ.

And really that’s discipleship, right? Growing in participation in the ministry of Christ is an important piece of the discipleship journey. And when I think about equipping, the reason I said holistic is that we are full beings. We’re integrated beings.

And I think often when we think about equipping, we can just think about maybe the head knowledge. What’s the information that you need to know to do something? But there’s also those hands-on experiences that are important to keep in mind when we think about how we’re defining equipping.

And so, I think the hands-on is also a really critical part of the definition of equipping—things like mentorship where you really get to live life-on-life and have that experience where that more intangible knowledge is getting passed on. It’s more getting rubbed off on you than passed down in a textbook thing.

Or apprenticeship where knowledge and skillsets are being passed along in a hands-on way where you’re actually getting to practice it in real life and not just learn about it from a workshop or a webinar. And you’re really getting to put these pieces into practice. I think that’s an important aspect of how we want to define equip in GCI.

And then we do have the things like workshops and seminars and tools that we have and knowledge that we need to know. And that’s all really important.

And if we stop there, I believe that equipping is incomplete because we haven’t had a chance to actually put flesh on it. And see what it’s like in motion. So, when I think about how we define equip, I think it’s the holistic piece of what knowledge and tools are needed.

And then, what’s that experience where that can be really owned by the person, [where] it can be really learned in a hands-on way?

Gavin: I think that’s spot on, Cara, because I think sometimes, we can just have this head knowledge. And it is useful having had knowledge, but often it doesn’t provide you with the confidence you need to go forward.

For me, for example, DIY [Do It Yourself] isn’t my strong point. But I do enjoy reading, and I can read a DIY instruction manual about how to do some plumbing or something along those lines. And even having read it, I don’t think I would ever go on and try it myself. If I watched a YouTube video, I might have a little more confidence, but nothing would be quite as confident as helping somebody else do that plumbing task, which would really give me that hands-on experience.

And it’s the same with ministry. You can read about something—and I think many Christians do read books, and we do want to engage in ministry and concepts like that. But it’s not always as straightforward because you are lacking that practical experience.

And if we look at the Gospels again and look at Jesus’ approach to ministry one of the things, he does is he includes his disciples. So, his disciples not just hear his teaching—of course, they hear his teaching but as they go along, they also are able to ask him questions and interact with him.

And then we see at key parts, he actually sends his disciples out so that they get that hands-on experience. Which is so important in terms of building your confidence that yes, you can fulfill this role that is being asked of you.

Cara: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that’s an excellent example.

There are many things I would not try after just reading a book or watching a YouTube video. And there’s a lot of things that I wouldn’t want somebody else to try for me or on my behalf after just reading a book or watching a YouTube video. And of all things, the holy privilege of participating in the ministry of Christ—would we not want to equip and be formed by the Holy Spirit well and create spaces to do that in a participatory, holistic hands-on way?

And as you said, it is similar to the way that Jesus modeled it in his earthly ministry. Absolutely. That’s an excellent example.

And so, as we’re equipping, according to this definition or understanding of equipping, how would you get a sense for whether equipping is being effective or whether we’re seeing fruits of the equipping that’s taking place?

Gavin: When you think about equipping and whether it’s being effective, it does depend on the specific area of service or the ministry role that is being looked at. You can’t necessarily have a one answer that fits every role to this question. But really, I think the biggest indicator that you have is when you see transformation taking place in the person, when you see that they’re growing more confident in their role, when they move from that period of just following instructions to really making it their own.

When you see the innovations start to come. And I think that’s really exciting. What you’re seeing is somebody responding to the calling and participating in what God is doing in their midst. And it’s beautiful to witness that in a person. And we have the Apprentice Square tool that we sometimes use, which is talking about how we gain new knowledge and become more competent as we move around.

And I think that tool is quite helpful when you take the time to understand how to use it, to really understand about how we grow when we are learning a new skill or a new area of development. And what we want to get to the point is when somebody is both consciously and unconsciously competent.

I think you can see it when you arrive at that. But it’s about helping people as they travel along each side of the Apprentice Square. Because at each side, they need a different level of support from whoever’s training them up. But really, I think you see where it’s most effective when you see the innovations start to come—the flavor and the gifts and the personalities that are unique to that individual. When they start coming through in that area, not only is that very exciting, but it’s also when I think it’s at its most effective.

Cara: Yeah, absolutely. I think those are fantastic signs for us to be keeping an eye out for, that the equipping that’s being provided is the right equipping. Because you mentioned, specifics to the area of ministry or where somebody’s serving. So, are we providing helpful equipping for the task at hand or for that particular purpose? And is it being effective?

Is it helping that person to grow first and foremost as a disciple of Christ? And secondly, in that particular way that they’re being asked to participate in ministry for that season. I think those are great things for us to be on the lookout for.

And when we don’t see those things happen, sometimes equipping takes time. It’s not overnight. And sometimes it’s also okay to say, let’s try something different, right? Everyone does learn in a different way. And we are learning even how to be learners, to be equippers.

And so sometimes, it’s also okay if we’re not seeing some of these signposts of effective equipping, to take a moment to pause and to say, okay, if we think about equipping as defined in this way, how can we recalibrate and come forward to think differently or try something new with this?

I’m wondering for you, Gavin, and in your own experience, when there’s been a time that you’ve been equipped particularly well from ministry participation and what that experience was like for you.

Gavin: I think one of the things you were touching upon there is that when people are being equipped, the equipping has to come in stages to some degree. And if you try and give everybody everything they need to know at once, they just feel overwhelmed. And again, this is where the Apprentice Square is helpful to go back to.

Sometimes, you have to make sure that your equipping is matched to the individual. One of the areas as we think of starting off in ministry participation, I was very blessed in growing up to have a father who was a minister. And in many ways, where I feel I was equipped for ministry was actually through just riding along with my father as he went on ministry events and visits.

And a lot of the time, it wasn’t even in my mind that I was being equipped. It was more that I just wanted to spend time with my dad. He wanted to spend time with me. But inevitably, [I] would go along and I would witness what he would do in ministry.

That was very helpful for me in terms of equipping me, particularly where I was at the stage then. At that stage, I didn’t know I was going to end up a minister; my dad didn’t know I was going to end up a minister either. But I think it gives you some idea about how you can be equipped even through fairly simple things like just accompanying somebody and spending that time when you’re doing your job with someone. Because I can see looking back, how helpful that’s been in terms of my own ministry, giving me confidence about what ministry involved and the approach to take.

Because sometimes I think with ministry—and again, this is very specific, me for example—is that the tone that comes across when you are with somebody who’s just lost a loved one is really important, more than necessarily having the right words. Because the truth is, if somebody’s just died, there aren’t necessarily the right words that you can say to them, or all you can do is point them to Jesus Christ.

But your attitude, how you approach it, that’s what’s really important—the tone. And that’s not easily something, you can describe. But in many ways, I feel more equipped for some of these roles just because I was able to participate when my dad was involved in those kind of ministry areas.

That’s a personal one for me, about my own experience of, in some ways, how I was equipped for this role. And I think it’s a good example because, again, that’s one that, in some ways, isn’t too “in your face,” too much of an ask, but is a great starting point.

Just come along with me and see what I’m doing. If you invite somebody just to see what you are doing, it can help them understand and take away some of the fear about what they may be asked to be doing or what may be asked of them if they take on this.

Cara: Yes. Thank you so much for sharing that because I definitely agree that “come and see” can absolutely be one of the most powerful forms of equipping because it’s that opportunity for that mentoring, that life-on-life, to see in real life, what does this look like? What does this mean?

That’s really a good word. And I praise God that you were able to have that experience. So, thank you for sharing that, Gavin.

And so, then we next move to the third E, which is the E that I personally live for. I love this E. It is the empower one. So, what does empower look like in the life of a local church, Gavin?

Gavin: Empowerment is a really important one for me because I’ve seen it happen where I’ve seen people who have been engaged, who have been equipped but then they haven’t been empowered for the role. And I’ve seen the frustration that’s caused an individual and the difficulty it is.

And I think when you’re empowering, one of the biggest things to think about is this idea of creating space for meaningful ministry. Now what do I mean by creating spaces? That if you train somebody up and develop them and equip them for a certain role, they need to be able to practice that role in a way that allows them to make it their own.

And sometimes this can be a difficult one to manage the transition of, because what you need to do is you need to have somebody step back so the other person can step into the role to some degree. So, it is not just delegating the role to somebody, it is giving them a sense of ownership and responsibility for the role that we are wanting them to take on. That’s really important.

When we think of creating space, there’s creating the space, but then you also have to help other people understand this person now has this space and is now involved in this meaningful ministry here. And often to do that, I think it’s helpful to commission the person so that there’s a recognition by others that this is an area in which they are now in leadership.

An example that I find is quite helpful in this is, in most churches—not necessarily all—there are sound desks to amplify the sound. And often, when you’re having somebody working the sound desk you can train them up in all the equipment, but they really need to start using the skills you train them in, and they’re equipped with. Otherwise, those skills will start to disappear over time. The confidence they have will disappear.

If you put them in that role, whoever was currently doing the sound system clearly has to step back from that role. And then at the same time, if everybody thinks the other person’s running the sound desk and nobody comes to the new person, then it’s just going to create problems.

I like the sound desk as a model for this one because I think it’s an easier one for people to see. But the reality is for almost any role in the church, you have this similar situation going on where you have to create space for what the person has been equipped to do now.

And the commissioning really empowers other people to see this person, to see the skills they have, to see that it’s recognized by the church. And that they basically are empowered to take the lead in this particular area. And I think this is such a critical stage when we think about the development of new leaders in the church, the concept of discipleship.

Again, to go back to the model we have in the Gospels and in the Book of Acts, we see that in many ways, this is what Jesus does. He had them come alongside him. But also, in many ways the whole point of Pentecost is it was this commissioning of the disciples to go out and to share the good news.

And the space had been created for them to do that because Jesus has called us to participate in what he’s doing, his ministry to his world. And this is the great gift we have been given by Jesus Christ—is that we are able to go out there and share the good news, the good news of Jesus Christ.

It’s not just that he kept the good news to himself, but we are able to be heralds. And that’s really exciting. But we see, again, in that biblical model, there is a creating of space and there is a commissioning. So, as we go through these 4Es, you really see that we’re following a biblical model forum, but at the same time so much of it is about how we take these concepts and really apply them to the life of the church.

Cara: Absolutely. And what you’re saying, what I think is really important and why I love the empowerment E is this idea that we’re not just creating “mini me’s” to do things exactly how we would do it or to do the things that we just don’t quite have enough time to do, but we wish we did.

But like you’re saying, creating real space. And then actually commissioning people into that space in a way that is really meaningful. Releasing them to be led by the Spirit according to their own giftings and what God is doing in their life, in their midst. Freeing them to respond to God on their own, not according to how I would, or how I would want them to.

And still with responsibility, but not with this idea that you have to do it exactly the way that I would do it. So, I think that is an excellent definition that you’ve given us of empower, Gavin. Thank you really for that.

Gavin: So, what do you think, Cara, are some of the things that might tempt us to settle for a lesser definition of empowerment?

Cara: You mentioned this, and I think this is one of the things with this E that trips us up sometimes, is we do the engage, and we do the equipping, and then we maybe fall short on empowerment or settle for something a little less than this empowerment that we’re talking about. Where maybe someone can do the thing that we’ve equipped them for, but they don’t have full responsibility over it.

I love the example you gave of the soundboard where you have the skillsets, but you’re not fully able to put them to use or you don’t have the full responsibility or authority to lead in that capacity, in that area of ministry because the previous leader hasn’t stepped aside.

I think that’s something we experience pretty frequently in the lives of a local church. And I think that we are selling ourselves a little bit short of what we could experience in terms of vibrancy and health in our church communities. There are a number of things that always could contribute to why our decisions come out the way that they do and what that looks like.

But I do think there are some common things that we can keep an eye out for that can really help support us in rising to this level of a definition of an empowerment.

One of the things that often will happen is, when we have a lack of effective equipping then we see or identify a lack of competency in an area. And then we’re hesitant to fully empower, right? Because we’re like maybe I can’t give this space and commission this person to have full responsibility over this ministry because they don’t quite have all the skillsets that they need right now.

To me, that’s an easy fix. Rather than just settling for a “mini me” or someone to just manage some tasks or do some delegation, we can just instead provide fuller equipping, holistic equipping so that person can fully step into a meaningful area and space of ministry that’s in line with their gifting and what they have to offer the community of the local church.

So that comes back to the equipping stage. Has that been robust enough to move on to the empowerment stage or have we rushed through?

And then sometimes I think that we can have a little bit of a lack of relationship, which leads to a lack of trust. We’re not going to necessarily empower and give over responsibility to somebody in an area of ministry if we don’t know that we can fully trust them.

And so that comes back to really what you said right at the beginning of our conversation, Gavin, that relationship is foundational to the engage stage. And so how have we thoroughly engaged? Have we built strong relationships before going ahead and saying, oh maybe you can lead this?

Have we built relationships that are hardy enough that we can actually trust people to be empowered in areas of ministry participation and leadership?

And I think both of those things come back a little bit to, we have a desire to control, right? I think that’s in a lot of us as people. But ultimately, it’s Jesus’ church not our own. And as you said at Pentecost, we’ve been empowered as his church to preach the gospel.

And I think that’s a bit of a mind shift for us to take. Do we trust? Can we trust more deeply what God is up to in our midst? And can we trust in this idea of the priesthood of all believers, that he’s calling all of his people into meaningful participation in his ministry? And that might require of us creating space and empowering others to do just that, to participate in that ministry.

And then I think that the last thing that can be a barrier to us fully rising to this awesome definition of empowerment is even misunderstanding life stages and capacities or capabilities at life stages.

So, I like to think a lot about younger folks, youth and young adults and what they’re capable of. I think that they’re capable of a lot more than we often give them credit for. And so sometimes there can be a hesitancy to empower emergent leaders because maybe they’re too young. Maybe they can’t handle this level of responsibility, but when they’ve been well-engaged and well-equipped and are well-supported in doing so, I think that’s one thing.

And then on the other end of an intergenerational church life perspective, I think sometimes when folks get into their senior years, we don’t think about the ways that they can still meaningfully participate in ministry. So just because you can’t go out and walk three miles going door to door getting to know your neighbors, doesn’t mean you can’t write notes or something like that, and be empowered to have a participation and encouragement note-writing ministry or something like that, just as an example.

And so, I think, again, it comes back to: are we thinking too narrowly about how God is working in the people in our community and in our neighborhood? Or are we open to what people have to contribute to the life of the church?

And so, I think that those are some things. Now, there could be others, but I think those are some key things. When we let those be barriers and we’re like, oh, okay we can empower people by maybe letting them hit advance on the slide a couple times and then we’ll call that empowerment.

But I think we’re selling ourselves a little bit short, if we let ourselves off the hook and say that’s empowerment. When I think, by the power of the Spirit, God has called us to something really incredible to participate in his ministry in the priesthood of all believers.

Gavin: Yeah, absolutely. I think one of ones there that I’ve had some experience with is, I think often the barrier to empowerment can sometimes be, we use the term control, but I think it’s more a fear-based mentality of fear of letting go of something for what might happen as a result of that.

And sometimes it can even be the pressure we’re under because sometimes if you’ve been working in ministry, and you’ve been accumulating roles along the way, you reach a point where you really are at capacity and you really need to hand things off. But sometimes that’s easier said than done for you.

Because of your fear about having to train somebody up, the amount of time it would take, it’s so often to end up with that mentality. It’s easier for me to do it myself than to train somebody up to do it. That only makes sense really in the short term. It makes no sense in the long term, but those are very easy mentalities for us to adopt in the moment because if you find yourself pressured or overworked which can happen because most ministry are volunteers. Most ministry workers are volunteers. And often you have your day job, you’ve got your family life, you’ve got all sorts of things going on, perhaps even health difficulties or whatever.

And so, you can find yourself in this stage where you are just really overwhelmed, and it’s easy for you to keep saying to yourself, it’s easier for me to keep doing this myself than to finish off handing all this over to the other person. But that’s just really a trap, and if we carry on that way, there’s no way out.

And I can certainly voice my own experience of sometimes finding myself trapped along those lines. And really the only way to break free, to have that freedom, to have that liberation, comes from letting go and trusting others. And particularly, sometimes you can feel it difficult to trust when you’ve been burned in the past.

And I think this is one of the things that sometimes does happen in development and discipleship. Perhaps you’ve been working with somebody in the congregation and training them up for a particular role, and they get trained in that role. And you empower them, and you commission them. You create space, and they’re great at it.

You’re encouraging them, and then they get a job in another city, and they move away. And it’s heartbreaking, in a way. But at the same time, sometimes that’s part of life and particularly part of the Christian life that we’re called. And we need to just trust God that the skills we’ve helped that person with are going to be helpful somewhere else down the line.

But we can’t really put “all our eggs in the one basket” concept. We need to understand that the reality of life means that sometimes people will move away to another city, or they’ll have a family emergency. That means they need to step back. And this is why at the same time, it’s so important that we keep going with the 4Es because what you really want to reach, the point you want to reach in a Healthy Church is where not everything is depending on one or two key people that you have, redundancy in the system, so to speak.

So that if something goes wrong, there are other people who are able to support and help out. And this is why Team Based—Pastor Led is one of the hallmarks of being a Healthy Church is that you have a system that’s able to deal with that. But to do that, you really need to lean into these concepts.

Lean into engaging, equipping, empowering and—as we’re about to go onto—encouraging others. So, let’s move on to encouragement.

Cara: Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for those excellent points, Gavin. And as you said, encouragement, this is our final of the 4Es.

And it can seem, oh yeah, that’s an obvious one. That’s simple. We all encourage, we’re good Christian people. Of course, we encourage, but we want to not miss how important this is when we’re talking about developing others, discipleship, and the rhythms of a Healthy Church and the life of a Healthy Church.

Because encouragement is something that, again, it comes back to not just a pat on the back of, oh yeah, good job, kiddo. But are we seeing people, right? Are we seeing them well? Are we seeing and taking the time to discern what the Spirit is doing in their lives? Maybe how they’re growing and transforming, how they’re contributing to the life of the church, the ways that the life of the church and the neighborhood are more like the kingdom because of who God is shaping this person to be and how they’re contributing.

And so, I think that on a practical level, encouragement is how we define that, as continuing to speak life into that person and continuing to see them and name what God is up to, what we see them doing. And I think to be specific with encouragement, I think that’s one best practice of encouragement, not just, oh yeah, you’re great, that’s so wonderful.

If you could say it to everybody in the church, is that really encouragement? But if it’s something specific, that is specific to that one person, who they are, who God is shaping them to be, the ways that they’re participating in the ministry of Jesus and that particular season of their life, in that neighborhood, in that local church, that’s really meaningful. That’s a way that we get to participate even in Jesus’ ministry of seeing people, of speaking life into them.

And then, to bring that encouragement consistently. And I don’t mean—it doesn’t have to be every five minutes consistently, but if somebody’s been serving, participating in a particular ministry role for two years, I think it’s easy to, maybe we encourage them for the first four months. But then at the end of year two, maybe we just take it for granted that they’re doing a great job. So, are we continuing to see people, to speak that life into them?

And then, to do that in a way that is unique to them as well. How do they hear encouragement? How [would] they be encouraged? And not just to speak life in the way that we like to speak life, but how does that person receive life and encouragement, I think is something that is helpful to consider as well.

Gavin: Yeah, I definitely agree with that because people do receive encouragement in very different ways.

I think there are some people where being recognized publicly means a lot. There are other people where, they just don’t want to be recognized publicly. And if you put them on the spot, they’re just embarrassed about it. And I fall into that latter category.

And this one, encouragement, for me is always one that I think that I need to focus on more. I don’t feel it’s one of my natural strengths. I wish it was. It seems sometimes crazy that encouragement isn’t, but it just doesn’t naturally come from me, as my wife is very good at reminding me.

But one of the things with encouragement that I think that I’ve learned as well is that sometimes when you’re in a leadership position, you have people come to you and say, didn’t so and so in the congregation do a fantastic job? And sometimes we need to stop and say, “They did. Have you told them that?” Because sometimes the encouragement that’s needed isn’t just from the pastor; it’s from the congregation. It’s from the community, the wider people around. And what you really want is a culture of encouragement where everybody is looking to encourage one another—again, with specifics and consistent there.

But if it’s just one person in the congregation doing all the encouraging, then it ends up looking like that person’s gifting as opposed to real encouragement, if that makes sense. So, I think it’s important that this is viewed not just through the pastor led lens, but through the team-based lens as well.

That really with the 4Es, when it’s working together, you’re not talking about one person who’s doing all this element. You come back to that team-based element, and the encouragement is one where that’s easier to see to some degrees, but it also carries more weight when the whole team recognizes somebody for their contribution.

Cara: Yeah, that’s an excellent point. Creating a culture of encouragement and bringing everyone’s voice into that. That’s excellent. As we begin to wrap up our time today, Gavin, what encouragements would you share with those who are learning to put the four E into practice with their teams and in the life of their local churches?

Gavin: I’ll tell a story. I gave a presentation to some of our ministers here in the UK on the 4Es. And unbeknownst to me a couple months later, one of the ministers was doing a quiz in the church, and they put this up as one of the questions about the church to see whether anybody could name all 4Es.

And it was clearly an issue for everybody to remember all four of the Es. People kept getting three of the Es, but they couldn’t remember that last one. And it was just quite amusing watching everybody struggle with that. And sometimes I think at times, we can almost be put off by some of the buzzwords and trying to remember all these little things.

I think it’s so important that we understand the value that comes out of this tool that we are discussing. And it is tool. We need to think of it in the context of being a tool to help us, to help us to develop good habits when it comes to developing up new leaders and multiplying leaders.

So, for some of the people that I think who are just beginning, what I would say is, it’s worth persevering with these concepts. Don’t expect to just read it the one time and think that you can come away with it. You need to really stop and let it expand in your mind. And think about, what does it mean to engage with people with respect to the 4Es? What does it look like when you recognize the giftings in an area?

And then, how do you go about perhaps recruiting that person to a specific role? What does, equipping them look like in that particular context? And that’s really where you get the value. So, to some degree, you get more value out the 4Es the more effort you put into developing these concepts in your own mind.

And that’s really what I would say to people who were just beginning with this. Persevere. The terminology is there to help you understand these key concepts that we’ve been discussing today.

Cara: Thank you so much, Gavin. I really appreciate all the insights that you’ve had to share with us today. They’ve been really helpful, and I’m sure that they will be helpful to all of our listeners.

But before I let you go, we have a little bit of fun to have. So I’ve got a couple of fun random questions that you can answer with whatever comes to mind first. So, if you’re ready, here we go.

Gavin: Okay. I’m ready. I’m ready.

Cara: If you could instantly become an expert in something, what would it be?

Gavin: The immediate thing that came to mind was medical stuff. I have no idea why that came to mind. Yeah, I don’t know. I guess at one point in my life I wanted to be a doctor. I think that ship has sailed. I don’t know what I would do with all that knowledge if I had it now.

Yeah. Maybe we want the next question.

Cara: That’s a good thing to have immediate expertise on. People pay a lot of money to get that expertise.

Gavin: That’s true. That’s true. Yeah. So, I would just skip quite a lot of years of learning there. That’s true.

Cara: That’s right. All right. If you have to sing karaoke, what song is your go-to song?

Gavin: I’m very musically challenged; I’m going to put it that way. And I really do struggle with music, and I have two specific things that I struggle with. One is that I can’t keep rhythm at all. I’m one of those people that when people are clapping along with songs, I can’t do it.

I’ve worked out that I can read the lyrics for a song, and I can sing the song at the same time, but I can’t read, sing, and clap at the same time. If I want to clap in rhythm, I really need to be watching somebody else. Otherwise, I don’t keep the rhythm. The other problem I have is that I just genuinely am not very good at remembering lyrics to songs.

I’ve practiced this over time. I had specific songs that I would sing to my children. When they were growing up, like nursery songs and I would be there when I’m singing to them, reading them off my phone. And I read some of these songs and sang them every day to my kids every night for a couple of years.

And I’m shocked now when I go back to sing them how little of those nursery rhymes that I can remember. So, I’m going to duck that question because I tried to do karaoke once and it’s a pain. I’m not looking to repeat.

Cara: Yeah. So, you’re a non-karaoke-er. Yeah. That’s all right. That’s all right.

Gavin: I enjoy watching other people, yeah. If they’re good.

Cara: We can’t all be gifted in everything. No. All right. This next question, I know you’re gifted in this. What is your favorite meal to cook?

Gavin: Ooh. See my favorite meal to cook is probably always the next one because one of the things I really enjoy doing when I’m cooking is—part of it is the excitement of trying to find a new recipe I haven’t done before, something that looks exciting.

And so I always enjoy that next meal that’s coming up because part of the enjoyment I get, particularly as a cook, it’s not just, you want the meal to be good, you want to enjoy eating it, but for me, I like the whole process and including that planning process where you’re working out what to cook, and then you’re getting the ingredients, then you’re actually making the recipe.

And for me that planning element is the one that I like the most. And it’s not specifically one recipe every time that I turn to it and it’s my favorite, it’s more that I enjoy the experience of learning about a new cuisine or a new dish, or particularly if there’s like a new ingredient I haven’t heard of.

That’s what I find very exciting.

Cara: Okay. Yeah, that’s a lot of fun. All right, this next one, what’s the best phrase or piece of slang that people in your hometown use?

Gavin: Oh, this is a difficult one.

The challenge for me here is I don’t really like using slang phrases. I even struggle to use nicknames for people because it’s not that I have anything particularly against it, it’s just my personality doesn’t really lend itself to that.

Cara: Ah, fair enough. Fair enough. Sorry.

Gavin: I know that’s not the easiest answer to give there, but I’m struggling to think of anything, but

Cara: No, that’s okay. You’ve answered to say, you’re not a slang kind of person. That’s your answer.

I was looking forward to some good British phraseology, but that’s okay.

Gavin: I’ve probably given you some already. When I was talking about DIY and plumbing earlier, I was going to say changing the tap, but you say faucet and I thought, oh, okay, maybe I won’t use that.

Cara: That’s right. That’s right. And then our last question, what’s something that always gives you childlike joy?

Gavin: What is something that always gives me childlike joy? I actually really enjoy playing tricks on my children and my wife too. And I have to say, nothing gives me more joy than when I really get them with whatever particular trick or prank I played on them at the time.

So that would definitely be my answer then.

Cara: That’s awesome. I love that. Oh, goodness.

Thank you so much, Gavin, for joining us on the podcast today. We had a really rich conversation, and I hope that our listeners are able to gain some great insights from it. It is our practice with GC Podcast to end the show with prayer.

So, would you be willing to pray for our churches, pastors, ministry leaders, and members in GCI today?

Gavin: Of course, I would. Yeah, let’s pray.

Thank you, Heavenly Father, what a joy is to be able to come before you. And Father, you are the source of all good things in our life and let us never lose sight of that.

Let us never lose sight of all the amazing and wonderful things that you’ve done for us. And Father, we’ve talked today about how we can step into greater participation, into what you are doing in our lives, and in the life of our church, Lord and Father. As we think about the 4Es, as we think about discipling others, Lord, we just always ask that everything that we do be to your glory, Lord, that you guide our steps, that you help us in the decisions that we make.

And Father, as we think about the churches we have here in GCI and the pastors and the ministry leaders and the members and Father, we just ask that you help us all to draw closer to you. Let us clearly fix our eyes on Jesus and follow him wherever he is leading us, Lord. And so, Father, we place our trust in you.

And we just ask that whenever we use these tools, whenever we have these discussions, that we always use them, remembering your son, Jesus Christ, remembering the good news that we have through him, Lord, that we are called to be his witnesses to the world, Lord.

So let us go out into this world. Let us be his witnesses, and let’s proclaim the gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ. And we say this in the name of your son, Jesus Christ, and through the power of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Cara: Amen. Folks, that’s all we have for today. So, until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

We want to thank you for listening to this episode of the GC Podcast. We hope you have found value in it to become a healthier leader. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic, or if there is someone who you think we should interview, email us at info@gci.org. Remember, Healthy Churches start with healthy leaders; invest in yourself and your leaders.

The post Defining the 4Es w/ Gavin Henderson first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.

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“It is so much better to have a team of people working, and serving, and doing ministry together. It is actually more freeing, even though it is scary in the beginning. It is actually more freeing when you a team of people that you trust, you empower, you support, you cheerlead from the sidelines and say, “Go, be the best Avenue Champion you can be!”. There is great joy and excitement in that, once you get past that fear.”

-Mike Rasmussen, GCI Superintendent of North America & the Caribbean

Main Points:

• How does the Faith Avenue support the Health Church vision? (4:10)
• What is the role of a Faith Avenue Champion? (7:20)
• Who would be a good fit for a Faith Avenue Champion? (10:15)
• How do you build a team and what does the Faith Avenue Team accomplish? (12:48)
• What does a healthy Faith Avenue look like in a church setting? (20:29)
• What is the purpose of a Ministry Training Center (MTC)? (27:29)

Resources:

• Team Based – Pastor Led – An infographic the outlines the Avenues that make up the GCI, team based leadership model.
• Team Based – Pastor Led Videos
• Faith Avenue Tools – Additional resources for pastors and Faith Avenue Champions to prayerfully and strategically build out their Faith Avenue Teams.
• GCI Discipleship Pathway – Click on the “Believe” tab for GCI Curricula and other Faith Avenue Resources

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The post Team Based Leadership in the Faith Avenue w/ Mike Rasmussen first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources.