Replant Bootcamp: Recent Episodes
Replant Bootcamp
The Replant Bootcamp Podcast is a boots on the ground resource for replanters by replanters hosted by Bob Bickford and JimBo Stewart. Both Bob and JimBo are replant pastors and serve other replant pastors through their local associations and the North American Mission Board. It is Bob and JimBo’s desire that this podcast encourage and equip pastors and ministry leaders in the gritty and glorious work of replanting dying churches.
After a hiatus of more than a year we have decided to partner with Bob Bumgarner at First Coast Churches and reboot the Replant Bootcamp as the Don’t Pastor Alone Podcast. The first episode will launch on August 20th. Bob has a wealth of wisdom to share and I am convinced this will be a […]
In this episode, we continue our monthly focus on the bi-vocational pastor. The “Bi-Vo Bros”—Chris Snider and Matt MacNaughton—join JimBo to walk through the practical steps of building a sermon calendar once you’ve carved out dedicated planning time. We move from the “why” of sermon planning (covered last month) into the hands-on process of how […]
In this episode, I share why I’m genuinely grateful to be a Southern Baptist — even in a season when headlines, social media noise, and internal debates can make it feel easier to walk away. After five years of traveling to more than 30 states as a North American missionary, I’ve seen firsthand that God […]
In this episode, we unpack why planning your ministry calendar is not just an administrative task, but a theological act of stewardship. We walk through the biblical foundations for planning, the danger of goal-setting without humility, and a practical framework for building a gospel-driven calendar that serves your people instead of your ego. Our goal […]
In this episode of the Replant Bootcamp, I sit down with my friends and regular guests Matt MacNaughton and Chris Snider—the “Bi-Vo Bros”—to talk about how bivocational pastors can plan their preaching calendars with intentionality and peace of mind. Every second Wednesday of the month, we focus specifically on the unique challenges of bivocational ministry. […]
We don’t give to rescue a budget. We give because Jesus is Lord. Giving is worship that forms us, fuels mission, and frees us from idolatry. How do we talk about money without fear, guilt, or fundraising vibes? My aim is simple—to reframe giving as discipleship, not desperation. Jesus said we cannot serve God and […]
Here we are, back at the Bootcamp—back at it again! I had the chance to sit down with my boss and good friend, El Jefehimself, Mark Clifton, during the REVIVE event in Daytona Beach to tackle a topic that’s gaining traction among younger pastors: elders and church leadership in revitalization. Mark and I talk about […]
Mark Hallock was gracious enough to jump on the phone with me to record this call, but don’t sleep on this episode – it is worth the listen for sure. Mark and I talk about JOY. The first prayer a struggling church should ask is for the joy of their salvation. Joy, a fruit of […]
Here we are, back at the Bootcamp! I’m excited to have a returning guest and good friend, Dr. Richard Blackaby, join me live from the REVIVE Conference in Daytona Beach. In this episode, we talk about the updated version of Flickering Lamps—now titled Developing a Christ-Centered Church—and the heart behind its message. Richard shares the […]
In this episode of the Replant Bootcamp, JimBo Stewart and Matt MacNaughton wrap up their six-part series on the Healthy Characteristics of a Bivocational Pastor—and they do it one bro short. While Chris is serving his local church (a perfect example of this episode’s theme), JimBo and Matt unpack what it means for a pastor […]
In this milestone episode of the Replant Bootcamp Podcast, I sit down with my friend Richard Pope, pastor of Canvas Church in Salisbury, Maryland. Richard’s story is powerful—he planted Canvas while battling a terminal cancer diagnosis, and God has done incredible things through his ministry in a micropolitan context. We talk about the early days […]
In this episode of the Replant Bootcamp, we dive into the importance of developing meaningful relationships and support networks in ministry. Ministry can often feel isolating, but it doesn’t have to be. We talk about why pastors need other pastors, the dangers of going it alone, and how to intentionally build connections that refresh and […]
Here we are, back at the Bootcamp and back at it again! I’m excited about this episode because we’re diving into one of the most important topics we return to over and over on this podcast—equipping others for ministry. If you’ve listened for a while, you know Ephesians 4:11–16 is probably the most quoted passage […]
Learn why balance is a myth and how bi-vocational pastors can practice situational priorities to attentively care for family, church, and community without burning out. In this episode of the Replant Bootcamp, JimBo Stewart is joined once again by the “Bi-Vocational Bros,” Matt MacNaughton and Chris Snider, as they continue their series on the characteristics […]
Conferences can inspire, but without next steps, they often stall out as notes in a notebook. In this episode, JimBo unpacks a post-conference process used at the Replant Summit to help leaders convert big ideas into concrete action. Drawing from guidance by Andy Addis and wisdom from mentors, the episode outlines practical frameworks you can […]
This week on the Replant Bootcamp, JimBo sits down with Jason Mayo, pastor of Valle Vista Baptist Church in the Inland Empire region of Southern California and the 2025 Replanter of the Year. Jason shares his story of stepping into a struggling church, trusting God for spiritual renewal, and seeing lives transformed through the steady […]
In this episode, JimBo challenges the solo-pastor paradigm and calls churches toward a biblical model of shared leadership and radical collaboration. Drawing from Romans 12:4–8, Ephesians 4:11–16, and 1 Corinthians 12, he explores why the path toward health and renewal requires leaders to multiply, not maintain, and to view their church as part of something […]
In this month’s “Bi-Vo Bros” episode, JimBo Stewart sits down again with Matt MacNaughton and Chris Snider to unpack the fourth healthy characteristic of a bi-vocational pastor: clearly setting and expressing realistic expectations and boundaries. Serving as a bi-vocational pastor means juggling ministry, family, and other vocational responsibilities—all while resisting the pressure to say “yes” […]
This week on the Replant Bootcamp, we’re honored to welcome Dr. Darlene Dryer, founder of ReplantWife.com. Dr. Dryer brings a wealth of insight and compassion to the unique challenges faced by women walking alongside their husbands in church replanting and revitalization. Drawing from her own experience and deep understanding of ministry life, Dr. Dryer and […]
In this episode, we explore the foundational concept of Word-centered leadership and its transformative impact on church revitalization and organizational change. Episode Highlights: The Foundation of Word-Centered Leadership – Discover why leadership must be rooted in Scripture rather than trendy techniques or formulas. Word-centered leadership begins with personal transformation before attempting to influence others. Four […]
In this episode of The Replant Bootcamp, host Jimbo Stewart dives into the topic of intentional leadership development for bivocational pastors, joined by Matt McNaughton and Chris Snyder. The discussion explores the importance of sharing leadership responsibilities within the church, addressing common barriers such as perfectionism and lack of discipleship experience. They emphasize that developing […]
In this episode, we revisit a transformative breakout session from the Calvary Family of Churches Non-Ignorable Conference, focusing on navigating personalities and emotions while leading change. This synthesized talk covers personality profiles like DISC, working genius leadership styles by Patrick Lencioni, and the emotional cycle of change. Key insights include the importance of self-awareness, emotional […]
Setting Personal and Ministry Goals with a Biblical Framework In this episode, we dive into an edited recording from a breakout session at the Calvary Family of Churches Non-Ignorable Conference in Denver. The session focuses on setting personal goals with a biblical framework. The breakout emphasizes the importance of proactive goal setting, rooted in biblical […]
In this episode of the Bootcamp podcast, we are joined by Matt McNaughton and Chris Snider to discuss the critical topic of strategically stewarding time and money for bivocational pastors. They delve into the importance of managing these limited resources effectively to serve their families and churches well. Key points include the challenge of balancing […]
This week we are doing a rerun of an oldie but a goodie. The guys are back from the #SBC21 in Nashville. Aside from being a bit concerned about their “review” powers Jimbo confesses that all the Robert’s Rules of Order steps had him simultaneously confused and amazed so we reached out to, none other […]
The Power of Persistent Prayer in Church Revitalization with Darren Sullivan In this episode of the Replant Bootcamp podcast, host Jimbo welcomes Darren Sullivan, a missional strategist for First Coast Churches, to discuss the importance of prayer in church revitalization. Darren shares his ministry journey, including his time as a church planting catalyst in New […]
In this episode, the Bi-Vocational Bros are back to discuss the importance of joyfully walking with Jesus as a key characteristic of a healthy bi-vocational pastor. They emphasize the necessity of prioritizing one’s personal relationship with the Lord amidst the myriad responsibilities of ministry. Through personal stories, scriptural insights, and practical advice on cultivating a […]
In this episode of the Replant Bootcamp, the hosts are joined by Brandon Moore in Montana to discuss the grassroots movement of renewal happening through the state convention, local associations, and church leaders. They explore the challenges and importance of developing leaders in dying and struggling churches. Offering practical advice, they highlight the need for […]
Mark Hallock comes back to the bootcamp with JimBo for this week’s episode. They discuss Mark’s five fundamentals for church revitalization, drawing from Mark’s experiences at Calvary Inglewood since 2009. The fundamentals include persistent prayer, text-driven preaching, strategic personal shepherding, raising up leaders, and equipping people to live missionally. The conversation delves into practical insights […]
In this episode of the Replant Bootcamp podcast, we welcome Dr. Jason Robertson, a pastor at Huntington Beach Church, a team leader for the California Southern Baptist Convention, and an adjunct professor at Gateway Seminary. Dr. Robertson shares his journey of replanting Huntington Beach Church, which was on the verge of bankruptcy and transforming it […]
Matt MacNaughton and Chris Snider join the bootcamp to discuss the growing need for bivocational pastors and introduce a new series focused on supporting them. They highlight the unique challenges bivocational pastors face, such as financial pressures and time management, and provide practical strategies for thriving in this demanding role. Special guests Matt McNaughton and […]
In this episode of the bootcamp, the host welcomes Matt McNaughton and David Jackson from the replant team to discuss their impactful new resource focused on spiritual renewal. The team delves into the importance of falling in love with Jesus again, emphasizing that renewal must begin in the heart of the leaders before it can […]
Assessing and Empowering Associational Leaders: A Guide to AMS Assessments and Roles In this episode, Jimbo and Walker Armstrong delve into the significance of assessments in the role of an Associational Missional Strategist (AMS). Walker shares his extensive background in developing and using assessments, highlighting his experience with the DISC self-assessment and the foundational Ridley […]
In this episode of the Replant Bootcamp, Wesley Lewis, founder and CEO of One Eighty Digital, discusses the critical elements required for effective church websites. – Check out https://everychurchonline.org/ Wesley emphasizes the importance of a strong online presence, illustrating how church websites can attract and engage visitors. He shares insights from a research project that […]
After a short hiatus, the Bootcamp is back and better than ever. You can even come to a Replant Bootcamp Event: https://www.namb.net/church-replanting/events/replant-bootcamp/ As we come back we are joined this week by Brandon Moore to talk about the Replant Bootcamp Event coming up at NOBTS next month and some other new resources from the NAMB […]
In this episode, JimBo Stewart and Matt MacNaughton address a common challenge bi-vocational pastors face: managing the guilt of limited availability while serving their congregation faithfully. – A question from bi-vocational pastor Josh Walley about handling guilt when unable to visit church members due to work commitments – The question itself demonstrates a shepherd’s heart […]
In this solo episode of the Replant Boot Camp Podcast, host JimBo Stewart shares insights from his busiest ministry season ever. He talks about personal challenges, including his son’s health issues and planning to plant a house church with Jason Truck. Jimbo stresses the importance of managing ministry’s weight without succumbing to the pressure to […]
In this episode of the Replant Bootcamp, host JimBo Stewart dives into goal setting for church leaders with guests Walker Armstrong and Dr. Brandon Moore. After sharing their holiday experiences and discussing the importance of reflection, they explore four key phases of goal setting: illumination, integration, implementation, and investigation. They emphasize the balance between strategic […]
In this episode, we welcome back Dr. Luke Holmes to discuss the complexities of church revitalization. We dive into Luke’s article on ‘revitalization triage,’ examining the different areas – head, heart, hands, feet, and vision – and how to prioritize them effectively. Church Revitalization Triage: What’s the First Step to Save a Declining Church? 00:00 […]
Why Your Preaching May Not Be Connecting (And How to Fix It) In this episode of Replant Bootcamp, JimBo Stewart and Wesley Lewis tackle one of the biggest challenges pastors face: ensuring our messages truly connect with our congregations. Why You Should Listen: Discover why even solid expository preaching sometimes fails to create lasting change […]
I had the pleasure of catching up with the Together for the Bluegrass guys at a coffee shop in Louisville recently! Together for the Bluegrass is an online ministry provided by the Central Kentucky Network of Baptists. In this conversation with special guests CJ Pearce and David Barron we chat about current trends in replanting, […]
In this episode of the Replant Boot Camp, host Jimbo Stewart and guest Bob Bumgarner discuss the significance of discipleship in church renewal. They explore how the American church has lost its focus on discipleship and the importance of creating a framework for making disciples with the end goal in mind. They delve into practical […]
Fundamentals of Church Renewal We are often asked to give a summary of how to revitalize a church. I get the desire for a quick answer and something to grab on to and implement but I have always struggled to give a concise answer. The reality is that church revitalization and renewal isn’t a cookie-cutter […]
If you are serving in bi-vocational ministry, we would love to listen to and learn from you. Take a couple of minutes and fill out this survey: https://su.vc/bivosurvey Previous Episodes: EP 228 – Surveying Bi-Vocational Ministry EP 229 – Serving in Bi-Vocational Ministry After a week off due to sickness, the Bootcamp is back. Matt MacNaughton […]
For This episode of the Replant Bootcamp podcast I pulled the audio from a presentation I gave at the Replant Summit this year on Reframing Confrontation. In this talk I dive into the dynamics of confrontation within church leadership, emphasizing the significance of approaching conflicts with a spirit-led attitude. The discussion highlights various types of […]
Emotional Intelligence in Church Leadership: Insights and Strategies In this episode of the Replant Boot Camp podcast, hosted by Jimbo Stewart, the discussion centers on the importance of emotional intelligence (EI) in church renewal and leadership, with insights from Dr. Ben McCroy. The episode explores how emotional intelligence involves understanding and managing one’s own emotions […]
In this episode of the Replant Bootcamp podcast, we are joined by Ben McCroy, a mobilization pastor from North Carolina, to discuss his doctoral research on the role of emotional intelligence in pastoral effectiveness and church renewal. Ben shares his background and journey and delves into the importance of emotional intelligence in managing change, handling […]
In this episode JimBo discusses the importance of self-care for church leaders, emphasizing the ‘oxygen mask principle’—putting on your own ‘oxygen mask’ first before helping others. JimBo shares insights on managing burnout, maintaining spiritual health, and avoiding moral failure by ensuring leaders are spiritually and emotionally rejuvenated. He provides practical advice on solitude, prayer, managing […]
Mark Hallock and Brandon Moore join JimBo on the road for another Replant Bootcamp Roadshow. They dive into personal experiences and biblical principles that emphasize the importance of zeal and commitment in spiritual leadership. They share insights on regaining lost passion, fighting against spiritual apathy, and maintaining a joyful and passionate ministry amidst the challenges […]
Mark Hallock and Brandon Moore joined the Bootcamp for a Replant Roadtrip episode. In this episode, we talk about setting personal goals. Goals need to be clear, attainable, and measurable. Personal goals need to prioritize personal spiritual growth and family time. [00:00:00] JimBo Stewart: Welcome to another episode of the Replant Boot Camp, the podcast […]
Bob Bickford drops back by the Bootcamp to discuss church renewal and replanting as an associational leader. Bob shares about becoming the Associational Mission Strategist (AMS) at the Nashville Baptist Association and offers insights from his new role. He emphasizes the changing demographic landscape of Nashville, the importance of reaching adults for Christ, and the […]
Mark Clifton comes back to the bootcamp again to drop some wisdom on how to navigate the process of church adoption alignment. When one church is prayerfully considering adopting another, both churches have a lot to consider, and it is easy to get bogged down in the wrong things – or at least in the […]
Mark Clifton joins us this week at the Tri-County Baptist Association office in Colt (not Croft) Arkansas (the home of Charlie Rich) to discuss reframing conflict. We discuss the importance of addressing conflict as a gospel opportunity rather than avoiding it. Mark Clifton shares personal anecdotes and biblical insights, particularly from the book of Philippians, […]
In this episode, we welcome Pastor Dustin Slayton from First Baptist Church of Round Rock, Texas to discuss his experiences and insights into multi-site ministry. He shares his journey in ministry, including his time as a campus pastor and his PhD work, which led to writing a book on multi-site churches. Dustin elaborates on the […]
In this episode, we welcome special guests Mike and Daniel Blackaby, sons of previous guest Richard Blackaby. Mike, a church planter from Victoria, BC, and Daniel, an Atlanta-based member of Blackaby Ministries, join us to discuss their new co-authored book, ‘Straight to the Heart: Communicating the Gospel in an Emotionally Driven Culture.’ We explore the […]
I am excited to have Daniel Im stop by the Replant Bootcamp this week to discuss discipleship. Daniel Im is a pastor, Bible teacher, writer, and podcast host passionate about the local church. He is the lead pastor of Beulah Alliance Church and the author of No Silver Bullets, The Discipleship Opportunity.Planting Missional Churches, and […]
Welcome back to the bootcamp! Brandon Moore stops by again to continue our conversation focused on setting goals and evaluating church maturity. Related Episodes: EP 238 Hitting the Healthy Church Target with Brandon Moore EP 248 Setting Ministry Goals with Brandon Moore EP 251 Setting Effective Goals in Church Renewal (Part 2) Practical Insights with […]
Welcome back to the boot camp, everyone! Today we have an extraordinary episode featuring Pastor Ryan Durham, the 2023 Replanter of the Year. Ryan shares his story of moving to Loop City, a small farming and ranching community in central Nebraska, where the local church was on the brink of closure after being without a […]
In today’s episode, Brandon Moore is back with us to share some practical insights we discussed on setting and establishing goals as church renewal leaders. Establishing clear goals is crucial for any church renewal leader. Goals help to keep the mission focused and the congregation aligned with the overarching vision of the church. Here are […]
This week we welcome Dr. Josh Ellis to the bootcamp. Josh is the Executive Director at the Union Baptist Association in Houston, TX. Josh talks to us about the three main groups that you will be shepherding in most churches and the six leadership ingredients needed for leadership with each group. Josh introduced us to […]
In this episode, we revisit with Tim Williams two and a half years after his initial appearance. Tim shares his challenging yet inspirational journey of replanting Gladewater Baptist Church in Mount Pleasant, Texas. He discusses the significant hurdles faced, including living in an RV, balancing multiple jobs, and navigating church politics, with a notable incident […]
In this episode, we return to the boot camp with Brandon Moore, now settled in Knoxville, Tennessee, after completing his residency in Colorado. Brandon shares his replanting journey and the lessons learned from the Calvary family of churches, emphasizing the importance of a shepherd-first mentality. The discussion focuses on the significance of spirit-led goal setting […]
In this episode of the Replant Bootcamp, we are joined by Fred Clement from One Family Church in Dayton, Ohio, who shares his experiences and challenges in replanting a church. Fred talks about the transition from Meadowdale Baptist Church to One Family Church, the importance of engaging the community, and maintaining relationships established by the […]
In this episode, we are joined by Jordan Raynor, author of ‘Redeeming Your Time.‘ We dive into why Raynor wrote the book, emphasizing its unique Christian approach to time management and productivity. Raynor discusses how the Gospel provides a different foundation for these topics, highlighting the importance of learning from Jesus Christ’s example. JimBo shares […]
My wife, Audrea, joins me again to discuss parenting strategies focused on core values. JimBo and Audrea share their experiences of raising their three children with guiding principles such as respect, integrity, self-control, and joyfulness. They describe how these values shape their family identity and parenting approach, including influences from mentors and brain science-backed literature. […]
Revival and Community Engagement: Replanting with Pastor Michael Denton In this episode, we conversate with Michael Denton, a surfer pastor and replanter from First Baptist Church in Nipomo, California. Michael shares his replanting journey, emphasizing the importance of relationships, community engagement, and strategic discipleship. He delves into his personal and pastoral experiences, offering valuable insights […]
Revival and Community Engagement: Replanting with Pastor Michael Denton In this episode, we conversate with Michael Denton, a surfer pastor and replanter from First Baptist Church in Nipomo, California. Michael shares his replanting journey, emphasizing the importance of relationships, community engagement, and strategic discipleship. He delves into his personal and pastoral experiences, offering valuable insights […]
The Stewe Krewe joins us this week to share their experiences and insights from their experience growing up in a replant. The discussion covers the challenges and blessings of moving for ministry, the importance of family bonding, advice for pastors on spending quality time with their families, and the unique perspectives of the children as […]
Cultivating a Powerful Prayer Life in Ministry This week, Rick Fisher of Blackaby Ministries joins us on the Bootcamp to talk about prayer. I would recommend grabbing a copy of the book that he wrote with Richard Blackaby that we discuss in this episode: Developing a Powerful Praying Church You should also join JimBo and […]
In this episode we welcome Brent Leatherwood, the president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission (ERLC), to discuss the important role of local churches and pastors in engaging the public square. Brent shares his journey and commitment to serving both his local church in Tennessee and the wider faith community through the ERLC. We […]
In this episode of our bootcamp series, we have the pleasure of hosting Dr. David Jackson from the replant team, who brings over 45 years of experience in ministry, spanning church planting, pastoring, church revitalization, replanting, and teaching. Dr. Jackson discusses the importance of spiritual renewal in church revitalization, emphasizing soul care for leaders and […]
In this episode of the Replant Bootcamp, we reconnect with Brandon, a former guest and a recent addition to the Replant team, who shares his journey from working with the Missouri Baptist Convention to joining the Replant team and moving towards replanting a church in Knoxville, Tennessee. Brandon discusses his experience and insights on church […]
In this episode of the bootcamp podcast, I have the pleasure of welcoming back Brian Croft, a veteran pastor and the founder of Practical Shepherding to discuss his latest book, Pastoral Perseverance. Brian shares his journey through 25 years of pastoral ministry, including facing significant challenges in the early years at Auburndale Baptist Church which tested […]
In this episode, we listen to the field to learn from the boots-on-the-ground story of Brayden Buss, a pastor returning to his roots at the First Baptist Church in Okmulgee, OK as he shares his journey of returning to pastor the church where he grew up, stressing the importance of understanding and respecting a church’s […]
In this episode, we welcome three special guests to discuss the unique challenges and joys of being a pastor’s wife involved in church replanting and revitalization. Dr. Darlene, Audrea, and Barb share their personal experiences and resources they have developed to support pastor’s wives through this journey. They hope to offer hope, friendship, and encouragement, […]
On this episode, I had the pleasure of chatting with Will Cofield, who, besides being known as ‘Mr. Erin Cofield‘ (the trophy husband of one of the Bootcamp blog writers), shared insights from his remarkable and tumultuous journey in church leadership as he led a church to replant from within. From beginning his ministry as […]
Henry Blackaby was a servant of God. Henry Blackaby was an ordinary man whom God used in extraordinary ways. Henry recently passed away from this earth and is now basking in the glory of God and walking with Jesus. In this episode, we’re back at the Replant Bootcamp Podcast with a heartwarming and insightful conversation […]
In this episode, we welcome Scott Catoe, a first-time guest but longtime friend of the podcast, who shares his experiences and insights from serving as the lead pastor at Slater Baptist Church for 10 years and his current role as the Associate Mission Strategist for the Three Rivers Baptist Association. Dr. Catoe discusses his book, […]
Special Guests: Mark Hallock and Brandon Moore Fresh off the AMS Replant Lab JimBo discusses the power of partnership. The guys dive into the biblical foundation of partnership, encouraging pastors to work together for the greater mission. Mark and Brandon discuss the benefits of collaboration, including trust-building, credibility, and the potential for a movement in […]
In the latest episode of Replant Bootcamp, we will address a significant change – the departure of co-host Bob Bickford. Bob is doing great work with Three One Three but will no longer be the official co-host of the Bootcamp. Learn more about what Bob Bickford is up to at Three One Three by clicking […]
We are happy to be joined in this episode by special guest, Andy Addis to discuss his book, Rhythms. Get a free digital copy of Andy Addis’ book Rhythms at this website: http://FindingBiblicalRhythms.com You can see a video of him teaching on this book in more detail at the 2023 Replant Summit HERE. In this episode, JimBo and […]
Are you a bi-vocational pastor? Take a couple of minutes and fill out this survey: https://su.vc/bivosurvey Pastor Matt MacNaughton is back on the Bootcamp to talk further about bi-vocational ministry. This time we are also joined but Pastor Colin Pugh. Collin pastors Clinton Baptist Church in the D.C. area. Maintaining Spiritual Appetite and Pastoral Grit: […]
Pastor Matt MacNaughton returns to the bootcamp for this episode as we survey and explore the landscape of bi-vocational ministry. Here at the Bootcamp we know that if we will listen to the field it will lead us to the future and Matt says that bi-vocational ministry is the future of the church. We would […]
Hey Bootcampers, we hope all is well with you and yours! The guys took some time during the deep freeze and snow to talk about leadership styles as defined by the Leadership Guru himself, Patrick Lencioni. His organization, The Table Group, does a great job of defining leadership styles and how they work together for […]
Well buckle up Bootcampers, this EP is tackling an important but also somewhat controversial issue—burnout in ministry. The topic came up via a social media post where a quote was shared; “I have never met a burned-out pastor ready to quit that was deeply abiding in Christ.” – R. Blackaby There were some hot sports […]
Hey there Bootcampers, we are tackling an important issue in this EP-funding your ministry. There are a lot of opinions on funding and we break down some basics. In future EPs we’ll take the opportunity to dig a little deeper into some of the ins and outs of making ministry possible financially. Let’s start with […]
Happy 2024 Bootcamp crew! Welcome to the beginning of the new year, we’re praying for you! Check out this list of 8 critical questions you can ask as you plan for the coming year. We’d love to hear from you! Drop us a line, send us some feedback and submit your own questions! Eight questions […]
Hey there Bootcampers! We hope you had a great Christmas. We’re taking some time to reflect on the past year and the year to come and wanted to encourage you to engage in the same. Here are some thoughts related to a blog Jimbo read over at Practical Shepherding. 12 Then Samuel took a stone […]
Hey there Bootcampers! We know this week has you busy wrapping up all sorts of things as you get ready for those Christmas Eve services and family gatherings. In this short EP the guys reminisce about some good ole 80s Contemporary Christian Music, share a few laughs and listen to Bob lament about his old […]
Hey Bootcampers, thanks for joining us this week! Today after Jimbo recounts his misadventures with “hot chicken” the guys get down to the serious business of speaking about an important leadership move, sharing the Pulpit. Do you share preaching responsibilities in your church? How would you start? What is the benefit? Listen in and follow […]
We hope you are well Bootcampers! Jimbo has been released from his quarantine and Bob is feeling a little under the weather, but do not fear loyal Bootcamper we held forth and produced another EP for you that is an important listen. Leadership is often lonely and challenging, that’s why it is vitally important to […]
Hey there Bootcampers, we hope you had a great Thanksgiving. One of the realities of pastoring is this: Sooner or later, someone in your church will decide they no longer wish to be a member of your church under your pastoral leadership. That can be difficult and discouraging, especially if you are early in the […]
Hey Bootcamplers, we’re thankful for each and every one of you! We took a few minutes to pause reflect and share our thanks. Praying you have a blessed gathering time with church family and friends. Jimbo and Bob JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the boot camp Thanksgiving edition. Bob, I […]
JimBo Stewart: Here we are back at the bootcamp back at it again, Bob. I hope you’re ready for the next episode. since our last episode, I have been hitting up a little bit of, travel in the DC DMV, Maryland, Virginia area. it’s been nice. I got to come up here, Maryland and Delaware […]
Hey there Bootcampers, happy Fall! We’re talking about how to make decisions as you lead your church toward renewal. Our topic is consensus, what it is, why it sometimes leads you to decisions that may not be the best for your congregation. Listen in and join in the conversation. Consensus = a general agreement, to […]
Greetings Bootcampers. Today the guys tackle an important and oft asked question; “Can a long tenured Pastor lead a church toward renewal?” Characteristically the answer is usually a not affirmative. We want to push back on that a bit and stress, a long tenured Pastor might be able to lead a church toward renewal-but it […]
Hey there Bootcampers! We hope your Fall ministry season is going well. Today the guys tackle the subject of Associations and church renewal. Both Jimbo and Bob are firm believers in the relevance of the local Association and recommend any church pastor considering engaging in Replanting or Renewal connect with the AMS and other Pastors […]
Bob has officially passed the Associate Director torch to JimBo. On this weeks episode of the BootCamp we are discussing some things to consider when developing a discipleship pathway. Things to consider The Goal of Discipleship: Spiritual Transformation In the context of community Confidentiality cultivates a community where we can be honest Through accountability Reproducibility […]
Well, Bootcampers the guys are back at it again and talking more about discipleship. Here’s the deal, making disciples is a ministry mandate (Matthew 28) and it’s also something that many struggle to do. Jimbo mentions a great article by Karl Vaters on discipleship and how Pastors can go about it without overworking themselves. Check […]
Greetings Bootcampers! Bob has settled the annual bet, donning the LSU pajama top once again as his Hogs lost to Jimbo’s Tigers. After the football banter the boys get down to discussing the reality that year three in a church renewal can be challenging and difficult making you want to leave. We break down some […]
Well Bootcampers, the Battle of the Boot is over, Jimbo and his LSU Tigers win again. Bob will wear the pajama top in Oklahoma. In this week’s EP the guys get down to the important business of discussion facilitating theological education for the church. Here are the highlights Introduction Spiritual maturity does not always correlate […]
Hold on Bootcampers! This EP is gonna be….well, we hope it will be helpful. If you survey Pastors you’ll discover that one of the greatest stress they have is during the Election season. People are passionate, opinionated and the election season is one of the most stressful we all endure. How can a pastor lead […]
Hey there Bootcampers. In this EP of the Bootcamp Jimbo and Bob take time to visit with President and founder of Three One Three, Brennon Mobley. They talk about the time Bob almost died on a float trip, how he got stolen from Jimbo and the Replant team and why Churches might explore building community […]
Greetings Bootcampers! In this episode our guys talk about the process of weighing out big decisions. Bob shares a personal update and Jimbo talks about the upcoming battle of the Boot. The annual bet is on once again-who will be wearing the other’s team colors? Here are some of the highlights of this week’s EP. […]
Hey there Bootcampers, we’re glad you joined us today. Jimbo and Bob spend some time laughing and then get down to the important discussion of recruiting volunteers. Neither Jimbo or Bob have ever heard the leaders of a normative sized church say; “We just have too many volunteers.” What do you do if you’re struggling […]
Hey there, Bootcampers! Say hello again to David Quiroa! He's joining us today to shed light on the unique challenges that Spanish-speaking churches are facing. Church renewal might be a buzzword, but it's still finding its footing in the Hispanic community. From declining youth engagement to a lack of awareness about revitalization, David spills the beans on what's happening. Psst, have you checked out his Spanish podcast Revive It's making waves across countries!
Revive Podcast When Cultures Collide: Navigating Multi-Ethnic Partnerships Let's talk about multi-ethnic partnerships—especially in Spanish-speaking churches. David breaks down the intricate dynamics of churches sharing facilities and bridging cultures. Trust us, it's not as straightforward as it seems. We're diving into the nitty-gritty of these partnerships and understanding how respect and unity play a monumental role.
Dreaming of a Multicultural Ministry Future The future is bright, Bootcampers! We're asking David about his vision for ministry in our beautifully diverse world. Brace yourselves for some inspiring thoughts. David envisions a Church that's a true reflection of the vibrant diversity we'll experience in heaven. With communities becoming melting pots of cultures, the Church needs to step up its game. David's got the golden advice on making everyone feel welcome and cherished.
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are, back at the bootcamp. Back at it again. Bob. I hope you're ready for the next episode as we keep on checking through. when this episode releases, we will be what, uh, like a week away or less from the replant summit.
Bob Bickford: Man, I'm excited about that. It's gonna be a great time and we're looking forward to seeing a lot of our listeners. And by the way, bootcampers, Jimbo and I do work for the North American Mission Board, so that's why we're at the North American Mission Board. I. And that's why we talk about some, replanting things.
And man, I'm, I'm looking forward to seeing some guys, my pastor is going, Jimbo, pretty excited about that. And, he is, doing a fantastic job. He's in the middle of, starting year three at, the replant. And so, man, I'm, I'm praying for him to be encouraged and equipped and looking forward to hanging out with our team and then seeing a bunch of our friends.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, man, I'm hoping he can skip the year three, battlefront that so many people seem to just run right into that buzz saw, including myself.
you know, [00:01:00] in talking to Mark Hallick, I think he somehow missed a year three battlefront, or he just always has such a rosy disposition that he just didn't like even notice that it was a battle.
'cause like he's the happiest most, you know, happy, joy, go-lucky person I've ever met in my life.
Bob Bickford: I think he, he, uh, hugged year three and put it in a submission hold. That's probably what happened.
JimBo Stewart: You know, if anybody could, could hug year three and fix it, it would be Mark ick.
Bob Bickford: It could be him.
JimBo Stewart: he'll be one of the guys at the Replant Summit. So I'm looking at, I'm looking at my calendar. This will come out on. August 23rd, which is just, little bit before, less than a week before the replant summit.
So Hallock will be there. H b Charles will be there. Jeff Chang will be there. Tim Buer will be there. Andy Addis is speaking, some great breakout sessions. one of the things I'm excited about, Bob, that we've not announced publicly about the Replant Summit. Is, this year we will have a couple of people that [00:02:00] are ready to have intentional times of prayer and encouragement, available.
Like you can literally slide, sign up for a slot of time with, some people that are gonna go into a room with you. Hear what's going on in your life, share some encouragement, maybe some biblical wisdom, and pray for you. and there'll be opportunities for you to literally sign up for, man, I need to sit with somebody.
I need to get some things off my chest, and I need to talk through some things with somebody and hear some biblical wisdom, some encouragement, and some prayer. and I'm, I'm, I'm excited about us offering that this year.
Bob Bickford: Jimbo, that's great. Who, who are these people? They're not just like fast food workers or a custodian or
somebody.
JimBo Stewart: We just gonna draw and.
Bob Bickford: I mean, these are, we're talking qualified people, aren't we?
JimBo Stewart: Yes. Yeah. So, uh, so Darlene Dryer, we have had Double Duck on here several times. Josh Dryer, his wife, Darlene, just finished a doctoral degree, and has focused very heavily [00:03:00] on offering biblical wisdom, discipleship and counseling to women. and so she will be there. Offering that for the ladies.
and then Jim Parrish, runs a ministry called Shepherd's Help. That is a ministry that is just to serve pastors and their families. He and his wife will be at there and they'll have a table that's where you can go to sign up for a slot to get some time of prayer, encouragement. And Jim, offers this to pastors all across the country, through Zoom.
he is here in Jacksonville, is how I know him. So he does a lot of stuff all throughout Florida and South Georgia in person. But he also does this over Zoom. He has a, they have a prayer ministry where you can send in any prayer you want and they have a team of people that are actively praying over those, Over those things.
And so Jim has been a blessing in my life, man. During year three, he was on my speed dial. Jim Parrish and his Ministry of Shepherd's help. So Shepherd's help. And then Darlene has a ministry called Renewing Her Mind. and so those are gonna be the people providing those opportunities of [00:04:00] intentional prayer, encouragement, some biblical wisdom, as an opportunity.
'cause we know that a lot of people are going through a lot of hard things right now.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's not uncommon for us to hear every week that, a replant or renewal pastor's just about to ready to, to check to check it in, right? He is just ready. He's done. And so I would say for, if you're listening and you're gonna be there, and sign up for one of those spots and, and just get some perspective.
And a lot of times it's just helpful to, to talk it out and to have somebody ask you questions and remind you the truth of scripture. And so I, I'm just encouraged by that and I'm, I'm looking forward to that being a part of this year's event and hope we'll be able to do it in the future time and time again.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. Hey, today I am excited that we have a, repeat guest here on the bootcamp, but it's been a while since we've had David Cara on here. back during the height of Covid, we did a special episode in Espanol and we had [00:05:00] David Cara and Jaime Lopez, came on. They recorded an episode talking about.
Especially back when everybody kind of had to do lockdown and figure out some online stuff, and they offered some really good practical wisdom for Hispanic churches back then. man, David since then has completed a doctoral degree in church revitalization. He has, started his own podcast, on renewal for Spanish churches.
he's helping lead some other things, for Spanish churches as well as he continues to pastor there in California. And so we're excited to bring David on. David
welcome back to the
bootcamp.
David Quiroa: It's been a while, guys, but thank you so much. Um, by the way, I listen week, and, and every week I go, I wonder if they're call.
JimBo Stewart: Well, here you are, man. You made it. You made it back to the bootcamp, and we've
got you here to share your wisdom with
everybody.
David Quiroa: a pleasure to be here with you guys. I'm excited for all that God is doing. started, the first, [00:06:00] to what I know so far. Spanish podcast on revitalization. we have listeners in Spain. Believe it or not, we have listeners in Netherlands. I had no idea. that was shocking to me. a lot of listeners in Portugal, we also have them, uh, all up and down central, and North America as well.
And, uh, of course a lot of people out here in the United States as well.
JimBo Stewart: Awesome, man.
So what's The name of the podcast?
David Quiroa: is,
JimBo Stewart: Oh, I like that.
Bob Bickford: That's, there's no way I could
say that at all.
David Quiroa: You gotta roll your
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I can roll, but I can't roll him like that.
JimBo Stewart: Look, I, I have some Scottish heritage in me, so you'd think I'd be able to roll an R Good. Like an Alistair Begg, but I, I can't seem to roll an R. Well,
David Quiroa: R's.
Bob Bickford: Well, David, man, give us sort of your perspective of renewal work in the Spanish [00:07:00] church context, and maybe you, you know, you've got a lot of international LI listeners, but kind of focus it in, in North America here for us. What are some of the challenges the Spanish churches are facing in terms of just their life, their
direction, and why are
they in need of renewal?
David Quiroa: Yeah, well, great question Bob. You know, one of the things that I am challenged with is when I tell people, Hey, I got a doctorate in church revitalization. When I say that in Spanish, they go, what is that? so I would say that in Spanish culture, this is very, very new. and. The only option we've had for so many years is to die.
we had no idea that we can revive. We have no idea that there's strategies in place. Not only do we have a biblical, biblical way of teaching, we have to have a biblical way of, presenting the gospel and ministry. But there's also a practical way of doing ministry. And, this is, I think where this comes in.
However, I just make a quick shameless plug here. Texas is killing it. they're doing, they're doing really well. [00:08:00] They got some great players there for, revitalization and they're making some dent. But outside of Texas, I would say that, most of the United States when it comes in regards to Latinos or Spanish speakers, may not have a lot of.
knowledge even of what revitalization is. So our biggest challenge is starting the conversation, and I think you guys experienced this. I would say this, the revitalize and replant with, marks, with a marks, if I can say it that way. And replant bootcamp. you guys almost made like, you know, the word revitalization back in the day was very taboo.
It's a big no no word. It means we failed or something. But now it's like something we can strive for. There's a beautiful movement that we don't have to let churches die. so right now in the Spanish world of that, we're at the beginning of that where people will go, whoa, what do you mean? My church is dying?
Well, bro, I'm from California. Far sorry. So, well, bro, you know, you were running three now you're 12. you're, you're, you know, you're, you're not growing. and the majority of Spanish churches, and I [00:09:00] hate to put everyone in in one box, but the trend is that most Spanish churches lose their youth, that second generation, and they have no option.
And many times whether to, they have no option of life other than to close.
JimBo Stewart: I was exciting that you're, getting to be a part of several leaders that are kind of helping bring this idea, into the world of Hispanic church, especially in North America. And so to our listeners. One of the reasons we wanted to bring David on is we recognize probably the majority of our listeners are not leading Hispanic churches.
we do have some, but you probably know somebody who is leading a Hispanic church and, we want to help get good resources out there and, and make sure, so part of this is, is, man, we wanna hear that, and help, help us spread the word about. Davis podcast and things that are going on there so that people who need to hear that can hear it and be a part of that.
the other thing is we, we were able to, to have dinner with you and a handful of other Hispanic leaders down in New Orleans, [00:10:00] which was at one of our favorite places to gather. I. and get, some char grilled oysters, New Orleans Food and Spirits, which are just beautiful, beautiful things.
and, and talk about, some other exciting things happening for Hispanic church leaders coming up in October. Talk to us just a little bit about this event that is, we, we don't have all the details nailed down yet, but we do have dates and a location and you can kind of put this on your radar and get ready for an, a great event for Hispanic leaders or
anybody that works with Hispanic churches.
David Quiroa: First of. Rare and we're so excited, to have the first m I re planter, uh, in Spanish, and which we're calling Eva, which means to renew. and it's gonna be in Houston, the weekend of October 20th. we're looking excited. So I would say there, our target group is not only, uh, pastors who are in churches obviously.
[00:11:00] In your church, I recommend you let them know to come to this. It's the first of its kind. Uh, we wanna provide, uh, workshops. We're gonna have some dynamic speakers. And of course, since it's a Hispanic event, we're gonna have some delicious food because the gospel can't be preaching Lester's good food. And that's a joke.
So, uh, we're gonna have some great speakers, uh, resources. We lack resources in Spanish and, and any, type of renewal work. so we hope that some of these speakers will point us to great resources and teachings and, just get this, on the board is really what we wanna get, you know, get the word revitalization or renew in the minds of people that churches do not have to die.
JimBo Stewart: We've got you and Victor Marte and Jesse, and some others that are helping us put this together and see a great event. Who are some of the speakers that we're working on
having for this event, other than you guys?
David Quiroa: Well, you know, I hope Victor's listening. Do we really need anybody else other than Victor? [00:12:00] That's a joke. we're having Victor Rincones and, and Jesse, we're looking at some guy named, uh, David Ramirez, who's gonna be awesome. And, uh, Tony, He's producing some revitalization, work, for lifeway.
I don't know if you knew that. so he's gonna be talking, teaching some lessons through I think bible studies for life, looking at getting those guys involved. And there is a speaker, who's been doing, church revitalization, for, 30 years in expansion in another country that we're hoping to be able to book.
And I wanna leave him as a surprise. it'll be good for us, and I think it's gonna be great. I think this is the first time this is happening in the entire country and I'm, I'm, so we get to do it and teach churches, Hey, we can renew, we can revive, we can replant if.
Bob Bickford: David, one of the things you mentioned, and the leaders we were discussing about when we were there at the Southern Baptist Convention was the fact that a Spanish language church is often a multi, ethnic or mul [00:13:00] multi, uh, people group church. Common language, but you're talking about a variety of people who are in that church together worshiping the Lord.
Can you describe that to us? Some of our listeners, I don't think have that perspective, and
I'd love for them to hear that from you.
David Quiroa: Yeah, so we have a, we have
a saying here, so, my parents are Guatemalan. I was born here in Los Angeles. we have a saying we're not all a Mexican church. you know, and, uh, because that's what people think. We're all just one people group. but on Sunday mornings, when I preach here on Sunday mornings, I'm preaching to 17 different countries, 17 different cultures, 17 different ideologies, and cultural differences.
So I have to be careful what I say because I could say something and like, The American people think that's a common word, but the southern south part of, of like, you know, Peruvians or even the islands, Dominican Republic and so forth, Rico might be a bad word. So I really have to really. [00:14:00]Think about how I'm preparing my sermon, uh, because I'm not gonna force everyone, Hey, you're here and you're gonna listen to my California Spanish.
By the way, California Spanish is a little different than Texas Spanish. And may the Lord help, high mail in Florida. ' cause it's a little, a little bit different there. A lot of Cubans. We got a lot, we don't have a lot of Cubans here. but when we are preaching. It's, it's a multi generation multi.
Not only are we dealing with multi-generations, but we're dealing with multicultural, groups. In fact, we have, families here from like, they're, um, even from specialized, if I wanna say it that way. People groups. So you have like o unreached people groups. So I go up to them and I go, Hey, how would you say this in your language?
Or whatever. And you know, and they'll go, oh, that word is this. And then I go to the Dominican Republic, how? And I try to add those words into my sermon just so there's a, some familiars there for them.
JimBo Stewart: So one of the things I've heard you talk about is When Spanish churches partner with Anglo churches or African American churches, that seems to be something that [00:15:00] happens a lot. is there at least partnered in using facilities? there are different ways that we can think about that. And so while many of our listeners may not be leading his Hispanic ministries, I would guess there are several that have a Hispanic church.
In their building or are considering having a Hispanic church in their building or planting one. I know at our replant, we decided to plant one because we, we saw that like a lot of communities, if you do the demographics, which we've talked on this podcast a lot about executing your community and understanding your community and, almost every church I've been a part of helping them. Interpret their demographics. Spanish is the fastest growing demographic in their area, right? So like any given area, almost in the country, you do a one mile circle and you do the demographics. Then Hispanic may only be like 10% or 5%, but it's the fastest growing, right? And it's projected to be a much larger percentage in the coming years.
That we were no exception of the church that God allowed me to be a [00:16:00] part of replanting. So I saw a need and was like, okay, we've gotta do something about this. And so it took us a while to find the right guy that would help us do that. We brought in Atos who came in and helped. Plant at Glacier Rodion there with us as a partner of Redemption Church and do ministry together.
And we were able to set up some good patterns and rhythms where we could build comradery and fellowship every fifth Sunday. We worship together in Spanish and in English, and then eat a meal together. And and some other ways do outreaches together and things like that. But you've got some good language and paradigm that you, I've heard you talk about when it comes to Anglo or English speaking churches
and Hispanic churches partnering together.
David Quiroa: Yeah. You know, the reality, is that Latinos are, are the fastest grown group and, you'll see 'em everywhere. Now, I dunno you guys know this, but maybe some of the audience doesn't. but that, you know, that world renowned famous bluegrass band, chosen road, you know, the, the, uh, [00:17:00] prodigies, the, the ones of a kind, Jonathan Buckner is actually my brother-in-law.
I lived in West Virginia, for a while, and we were trying to, create, a, uh, awareness in that area because in that small town of Princeton, West Virginia, there's about 7,000 Latinos and no one was reaching. Uh, and even now, I'm, uh, I, uh, through Zoom, I am, uh, meeting with a future church planter in that area that, that we're training to hopefully start a Spanish church in West Virginia.
There's no Spanish church in West Virginia yet, so we're excited to to, to be able to be parted
in a whole state. Yeah,
at the, I did not know that till I went to the convention and the guy goes, is there anyone here in Spanish that is willing to go to West Virginia to start a church? We don't have one in an entire state, so I hope we get to be part of the first one there.
so the dynamics that we talk about is when there is, one building. So we'll take the building as an example. The church is the body. The building is just building, so you could be one building two churches. [00:18:00] Because these, these churches don't talk, they don't communicate. You can be one building.
There's a church and then there's the renters, so they're, they're just renting. I also added this one where there's the building, there's the church and there's the mission trip. Uh, and we treat the other language, and it doesn't necessarily have to be Spanish, but the other ethnic group, English, Spanish, or whatever, we treat them as a mission field.
This is how we're giving to the gospel. We're, we're not charging rent for, they're just our, this is us participating. And then there's, uh, ultimately there's the one building. One church dynamic where there is these two churches, these, this, building houses. one church concept in two languages, the function as one, they help each other.
The Spanish pastor. For example, here would have an office, uh, where the English guys meet and they have meetings together and together as a body, they make decisions for Spanish and English. so to [00:19:00] me, when you get to this point, you're really gonna do more for the gospel because you're reaching together.
We're coming together, we are co-laborers in the gospel to reach our community.
Bob Bickford: David, I love that vision for a partnership among, churches, right? Regardless of people group, regardless of language, those sorts of things. As you look into the future, what do you believe will be some of the, the most important work that can happen between, people, groups of all kinds as we think about proclaiming the
gospel here in North America?
David Quiroa: You know, we all wanna get to heaven, right? and you know, there's this verse where it just talks about all people groups, all tongues worshiping together. And then what a blessing it'd be to see a glimpse of that here, right? Where you can go into one church, I'll take my church for example here, valley Baptist.
Valley Baptist Espanol, the Espanola doesn't mean that I'm a separate church. The Espanol is just a linguistic clarification that we speak Spanish at the service. I don't get [00:20:00] micromanaged. We work together. So I think as the society grows, you're gonna see more interracial couples, you're gonna see more, languages, more immigrants and from all over the world.
And if you can find this partnership where there is respect, where there's love, but there's also clarity, Hey, we're working. CoLab. So one of the things we have here that I had to teach least in my church and I, I don't like saying it this way, but I'm gonna say this way. if we needed something in the Spanish church, they'll go, well, the white people.
So we, we've moved away from that to English and Spanish. So we, we identify as language more. Okay. This is an English church. We're the Spanish church. So we tell people we have the biggest, uh, English church here. There's about 6,000 people over there, and we're about 400 here. but it's, the English church has been here 36 years.
So, uh, you know, we, we make it seem like this is our English group and you can go to our, you're started. Something incredible [00:21:00] happened that had I had not seen before. We started getting more second and third generation, and third, our smaller kids, second generation in our services because now we were available to two languages, and we're available to these people who, and it's just not Latinos, but we're now a church that's available to the origin.
Maybe the country of origin, which is in our case in Spanish and the, the country of, I grew up here. So you're dealing with the Americanized and, wherever you're from, combined. so it's, it's been great. So I, I genuinely think that's the future, for Churches across America. impact. There's an article that said that, Post-Christian Nation because of the Latinos.
I will forward that to you. If you guys read, it's.
JimBo Stewart: Man, that's really good. That's a great perspective. And so [00:22:00] I think if nothing else, for our regular listeners, I just wanna encourage you to, think about, I mean, your missional responsibility to your community, where, where God ex you as, as you ex execute your community, you're likely gonna find that there's a greater.
Latino population than you anticipated and that it's probably the fastest growing 'cause it seems pretty consistent in a lot of places. That's not true everywhere. but it is true in a lot of places in our country. And so there's gotta be some plan, some missional plan. I mean like a state like West Virginia where there isn't a church.
Like, so be prayed about that. Look for resources. If you know people that are reaching Hispanics, then. David has some great resources. This conference is gonna be great. David, just as we come to a close, just tell us where can we find, where can we point people to for your podcast? and
remind
us again about the event in October.
David Quiroa: Yeah, I, so I'm on everything, apple, Spotify, whatever you want, name it. And it's just called,
It's, I'm, I'm doing it through pod team, but if you, find me on, uh, apple, [00:23:00] just type in Davida, that would be the fastest way to find it because, and it's also spelled revive, so you're gonna run into a lot of like, uh, healthy stuff like, Don't, don't eat fried oysters, eat vegetables.
Uh, you know, so, uh, revive. So ve revive, it's spelled the same way, and English is revived in Spanish. Reva is spelled the same way. And, uh, we're excited if we can have everyone, you know, just pray for us for this October 20th event. we're looking forward to just, sharing the gospel, not only at that event with our brothers, encouraging our brothers, but also equipping our brothers for the work of the ministry.
JimBo Stewart: And you'll be at the Replant Summit. and so people can come just say hey to you and, get to get
to know you a little bit as well while they're there.
David Quiroa: Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna be there and I'm looking forward to meeting, you guys and meeting, everyone that
JimBo Stewart: All right. Thanks for coming on, David.
David Quiroa: Thank you guys.
Welcome back bootcampers, we hope your summer is finishing up well. Today we approach an important but perhaps boring topic-the Church Business Meeting. Yes, friends it’s true many hate, yea even loathe the monthly or quarterly business meetings. Here are some practical suggestions to enliven this important meeting of the gathered church. Encourage Testimonies that […]
Hey Bootcampers, welcome to this side of history as the Bootcamp bros make history as the longest running (as far as they know) Replant Podcast. Today the guys spend time talking about hospitality and guest experience in the normative size Replant church. Here are some of the highlights. * Emphasize genuine hospitality * Don't assume people know where to go * Work hard at making your service welcoming * Create a follow up process and enlist a team to assist you in welcoming guests
How are you helping to welcome others to your Church? Drop us a line and let us know.
Is your online presence welcoming to the community? Our awesome sponsors at One Eighty Digital can walk you thru setting up an online presence that is effective and consistent with who you are. Contact them today and let them know you are a Bootcamp listener.
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are, back at the bootcamp. Back at it again, Bob. I hope you're ready for the next episode. Moving into episode 2 0 3 up and beyond, in the echelons of the longest Running Replant podcast in existence.
Bob Bickford: Well, welcome to this side of history, Jimbo. I think it's, uh, it's monumental for us to be here and I'm just excited to be part of it.
JimBo Stewart: I know, man, it's, it's pretty incredible, to be the longest running of something doesn't mean we're the best at it, just the longest running. and so if we could just not quit, we can hold that title and nobody can beat us.
Bob Bickford: Well, there is something for sticktoitiveness and perseverance and grit. And as re planters, Jimbo, we should have that characteristic. And so, uh, sometimes you just gotta stay after it.
JimBo Stewart: Man, speaking of staying after it, the, calendar never stops and school is right around the corner. First day of school is coming up real quick. and with that we're kind of moving beyond out of the summer slump back into, you might get a little bit of a [00:01:00] back to school bump, with some guests showing up at your church within the next couple weeks.
It's possible. Sometimes that happens. What do you do about that in a smaller church? you know, we've all seen the larger churches that have massive hospitality teams with, you know, guys doing. Cartwheels and spinning signs at the, at the road and Cadillac golf carts pulling everybody where they gotta go.
And, you know, everybody gets a Yeti mug and, you know, a gift card to Ruth Chris. But we're not, we're not talking about places that can do that. Bob. We're talking about, we're talking about churches that, honestly, sometimes when a guest shows up, we're like, man, there's no way they're coming back like,
Bob Bickford: Yeah. Yeah. And they dunno which door to go into often because it's not marked. And if you're in the very declined church, maybe the front door, you can't even go inside of it because the plaster fell off of the wall in the lobby.
JimBo Stewart: yeah.
Bob Bickford: So some [00:02:00] challenges.
JimBo Stewart: There are some challenges. So I thought I. It would be good for us to do an episode talking about, how do you, how do you do guest services in a smaller church, an older church, a declining church? how do you, how do you think through these things in a way, that are manageable, attainable, but also, again, we're not trying to move full on, you know, glitz and glam and fireworks and attractional.
We're, we're, But at the same time, like, we don't want it to be a horrible experience when people show up and then people are rude to them and or no one talks to them at all. And, you know, so how do, how, what's, what is the, what's the balance between being friendly and welcoming and like, overbearing?
Like, we don't wanna be overbearing either. Like, you know, statistics tell us that most people that show up to church are introverts, in attendance. And so like, if, if everybody's like going out, you know, of course then you got Mark Hallie who just ignores all that and hugs everyone. Just a full brace.
Bear hug. So let's talk about [00:03:00] it, man. Let's, one of the first things I think Bob is emphasizing genuine hospitality. Like just, Hey, we're glad you're here. Like, and when I mean genuine, I mean, you have to work for this, not to be contrived, but smaller churches have a bit of an advantage here. And I wanna highlight that, that, one, it's easier to spot new people, two in a smaller church.
Everyone is on the hospitality team. Bob, even angry Deacon Bill in the back who just grumbles and complains is on the hospitality team. And so you've gotta work to make this more of a culture than think of it more of a culture and less of an event or just a team or just a process. You need to have some process, I think.
But I really think you gotta think how do we, how do we infuse within the whole congregation this idea? Of, Hey, we're glad you're here, and we're excited to get to meet you.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I served with a pastor one time and, and something he used to say that I thought was really wise is he said, people [00:04:00] want to be welcome, wanted, but not watched.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: So I think this idea of, we, we want people to feel appropriately welcomed but not over welcomed. And we also want them to, to feel, uh, that little bit of anonymity.
Have you ever gone into a shopping situation, Jimbo, where you can tell the salespeople are on commission
and
man, you go in the door and man, they're on you. Right? And, and it's just like, oh goodness. Right? And you want to, lot of times you just want to. You wanna shop by yourself, you want to, you wanna look at things, you want to kind of figure it out.
Do you wanna observe it? You want to take your time. You don't wanna be asked a lot of questions. I think same thing with visitors who visit your church, give 'em some space, greet them, let them know that you're there to help 'em, point 'em in the right direction, give 'em the resources they need, and then give 'em space to experience the environment, I think.
And so, Part of that is just through your culture of saying to your people on a regular basis, Hey, even if there's not guests, just, you know, I've always heard from the stage [00:05:00] you go, you know, we wanna welcome those of you who are, uh, visiting for our, uh, visiting at our worship gathering. We wanna welcome those of you who are listening online, et cetera.
So you just build this into the culture that we anticipate and expect that guests are gonna be here and they're gonna be welcomed.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think, don't overdo it, man. Like you said, you don't want to overdo it to the point that it's so overbearing. I like the idea of feel welcome, wanted, but not watched. Um, it's, it's an awkward thing when we, when we left Redemption Church. So that, we could leave that leadership to someone else and I could go full-time with namm.
We had the unique experience of kind of being church visitors, guest really for the first time in a long time. And, and it was, it was interesting to see how, how that, I mean, I remember, I remember one church, Bob, there was this huge like, welcome tent visitors come here, like out in the parking lot and it had all these like gift bags and things like that.
And so like we walked up. No one, like they just kept talking to each other and like, [00:06:00] Like I, we were, we were obviously new, like no one even said hello to us. and then like, it was just super, like, we had to be like, oh, like do the kids, we asked, we're like, do the kids go into service with us or do they go, so we just don't know?
and they were like, oh, oh yeah. I mean, the kids could go wherever you want. And it was like, yeah, that's not helpful at all. I don't, I don't know what to do now.
you know, and part of that is I, I would say, I'm gonna skip down to number three that I wrote. I'm gonna come back to number two in a second.
Uh, don't assume people know how to get places. so how, you know, how can I help you find your way? Good. Signage is super important. good signage, like, and even look, I, it was, this was true of our church and I've heard it, I've heard this at least 10 other times from other churches. Even like the, the welcome flags you can put out or whatever, you know, the big flags, that's welcome and they, or they say the church name or something like that.
When we put those out, people came to our church. From the [00:07:00] neighborhood because they literally thought the church was closed. But when we put those flags up, they were like, oh, obviously something is happening here. Let's go check it out. And so signs like that, but even good sign, like really have an outside person that has never been to your church, maybe from like your association or state convention or from another church, if you're friendly with a larger church that has somebody in charge of guest services and stuff like that, have 'em come do a walkthrough.
Or, you know, a mystery shop visit on a Sunday morning and give you some insight. And one of the things they'll tell you probably is you don't have enough signage. I don't know where to go. I don't know where the bathroom is. I don't know where to drop my kids off. I don't know where I go to get coffee.
I, and you know, how, how old churches are Bob? Like we built addition on top of addition. On top of addition. And so the, the layout's super convoluted and there's like 17 ways to enter sometimes. And so which way do you enter? And it gets really confusing. So get good signs, have volunteers that can walk with them, have volunteers in the [00:08:00] parking lot.
sometimes you're gonna see somebody pull up and. You may not know where to park or even, like, I know the church that got allowed to be a part of replanting redemption, it was super confusing depending on where you parked, how to get to anywhere. 'cause we had several parking lots, but they were not near each other at all.
and so like you could park entirely in the wrong place and have no idea where you're going. And so having people that are kind of seeing that happen and, and helping point people in the right direction, uh, in the parking lot or in the main entrance or something. Just to help. Hey, how can I help you find your way?
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I think even the simple exercise of you getting in your car, pulling into the driveway. Parking. And then from that point on, asking yourself the question, where do I go?
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: Right, where do I go? And then you just walk in and you see your facility, and you see your signage from a different viewpoint. Most of the time we're, you know, we, we've got, we're thinking about the service, we're thinking about the gathering, we're thinking about the meeting that we have, and we [00:09:00] just don't pay attention to some of those simple things.
And once we get oriented to the building, then we're fine. But, it's time, you know, it, it's time well spent when you evaluate. Your signage, your entry. And then I would also say this, Jimbo, look at everything. I mean, look at, look at things out to the peripheral or vision, right? You might notice that there's been a piece of paper in the corner for like a long time, right?
Or you might notice there's some weeds or there's a, a chipped piece of concrete. Or you might see that there's, you know, somebody left a coffee cup on a. On a, uh, coat rack, you know, up the top where they, you know, the Bibles go and all that kinda stuff. I mean, it's just some, it's surprising what you will see sometimes if you go into a church and open your eyes and just start paying attention.
So, the big question is asked is this, what does this communicate about who we are? That's the big point right there. What does it communicate about who, who we are, that we don't care about our facility, or that we aren't ready for you, or that we're not prepared to help you find out where you can go?
And if I can't find the main way to restroom, how are you gonna help me with a spiritual question?
Right.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. [00:10:00] I, wanna go back to not being overwhelming, you know, that feel welcomed, wanted, and not watched. I also visited a church, uh, to preach one Sunday. And, every single church member, there was a table in the back, had a name tag, with, with their name, with like an official like name tag.
And part of that was really cool. But then part of that was also like, it is super clear who is not.
A member here, it was a little like, oh, okay. Like, I'm obviously a visitor. I don't have a name tag. That guy didn't have a name tag. So I don't know if that's a good idea or not, but, um, is, is, I think it could go either way, but part of that is so, all right, you've parked, you've gotten in the signs, or the volunteers have helped you get where you need to go.
Now the worship service starts. And I, I've heard it touted, I don't know the exact stats on this Bob, but I've heard it touted by ministry leaders, expert ministry leadership experts, that the first time guest or visitors will decide whether they come back again within seven to 10 minutes, some say within 30 seconds or in the parking [00:11:00] lot.
I'm not sure which of those is right. Whatever it is, it's a short amount of time. 10 minutes is like the longest I've heard, and so. I think a good question in that is like, what are the first 10 minutes in your service? Like, is it really horrible music with no joy whatsoever in the congregation as they sing, uh, and it's just miserable?
Or is it 10 minutes of announcements about committee meetings and you know, like, just think about like, what, what are those first. 10 minutes of, of your service, like, and I'm not telling you to like do a raffle or, or be cool or anything like that, but just like how do you communicate in your order of service, who you are, what you're about, and why regular participation in this service is time well spent.
Like how, what about your order of service helps? Communicate that. And so what does your order of service communicate about the importance of scripture, about the power of prayer, about the beauty of biblical community? Where should [00:12:00] announcements go in the order of service and how long should they be? I dunno, there's a lot of questions that I don't have a definitive answer on, but I think there are at least questions that you've got to wrestle with and think through as you think through not only what is what, what are your members experiencing on Sunday morning, but what are guests experiencing?
Bob Bickford: Yeah. Like you, Jimbo, when I transitioned off of staff and, uh, leading our church, I get to visit a number of different churches before we locked into where we attend now, and our members now. And I think the, most. Interesting experiences where where, where there was no kind of verbal communication, it's just like the lights went down or we just started singing and it was like, okay, well I guess this is what we're doing right now.
Right? And then, I think the, the most helpful ones where the, the services where there was a greeting and, and an orientation to, you know, here's the bulletin. We're so glad you're here. If you're a guest, we want to, you know, have an [00:13:00] opportunity to meet you after the service. Here's what we're doing this morning, right?
This is the quick orientation. We're going to pray, read from scripture. We're gonna sing together about the truth of the goodness of God in his character. And then we're gonna have a time of teaching and response where we can respond to what we've heard this morning. And so we just wanna let you know that you're free to participate in it.
So it's this invitation in orientation, right? That I think that's a part of a good. Systematic way to, to approach this. Invite people to be welcome, invite people to participate, and give them an orientation. Like just give them the overview of what's going on. Now we, we often, as re planters of dying churches, traditional churches, we often bristle about the bulletin, the order of service.
But man, there's no more important security blanket to a guest and a bulletin with an order of service, right?
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, absolutely.
Bob Bickford: And, you know, and I, I even tweeted out in my revitalization reality series, um, about the bulletin, the bulletin being a security blanket for the church. Like it says, we're doing [00:14:00]something, we're still here. There is a part of that that's important in orientation to, to what you're doing. So whether that's paper or whether you give that verbally or whether you have a QR code on the back seat of your.
A pew or the the chair and they can scan it, give them something that they can know what's going on. A verbal cue, a written cue, visual cue, uh, because it helps allay people's fears. What's going to happen right when I'm here? What's gonna happen next? Why are they bringing out the chickens and the snakes?
Like, when does that happen? And then do I need to leave? So I think just giving people a heads up on what's about to happen is so important. It does help them feel comfortable and welcome.
JimBo Stewart: I think a couple things, uh, outta that one. I, I love that idea of the orientation type greeting. Welcome. Hey, here's what we're gonna do today. Uh, one for guests, but then two also. Uh, when we had Nathan on from reawaken hymns, we talked about the importance of just reminding our people that we're leading why we do the things that we do, and, and how do we keep them from just becoming rote [00:15:00] routine.
Well, we explain it. We explain it a lot and we explain it over and over and over again. Uh, and you can open with scripture and you can open with things that point to, Hey, here's why we're here, here's what we're doing, and here's why we're doing it. and that, I think that's a beautiful idea to incorporate into, the beginning of a service for the guest and for the members.
Also, think about something I experienced, uh, recently. We went to lunch for somebody's birthday after church at a place called V Pizza. And, I don't know if it's just a local joint or, or what, but it's my, it was my first time there, I think. And there was a sign, it's very Italian, very like true Italian pizza type place.
And, and so they, there was this sign when you walked in that said, had a big stop sign, said, stop. If you've never been to V Pizza before or eaten in Italy, stop and read this. And it wasn't a menu. It was like a, I don't know what to call it other than like a culture document. Like it was this document that was basically like, Hey, welcome to V Pizza.
This is true [00:16:00] Italian cuisine. and Italian food is meant to be shared. And so if your food comes out before your neighbors, Give 'em a bite, let 'em have a slice, and they'll give you a slice of theirs. And, they just talk through a bunch of other things through like, Hey, like you, it literally was like, use a fork and a knife for your, for your pizza because that's how you eat it.
And and it was like, it was just a cult. It was like, Hey, stop. Welcome to a new place. Things are gonna be a little different here. Here's some things you gotta know and here's why we do 'em. and that was, I don't know, it was really cool for me just to see that and be like, oh, and it made me wanna share my pizza with other people and it made me wanna be a part of that culture, uh, that they were talking about.
And so I think that's a valuable thing that you're talking about, that orientation piece. Then I would say, all right, here's the question, Bob, and this one's highly debated. Should you do a meet and greet time in your service? This has been highly debated. There's articles like about like why this is a horrible idea.
and then again, there's Mark Halleck that goes against every, everything that's is introvert friendly [00:17:00] and is doing a great job at it. and, and they're all about the meet and greet time at
the Calvary.
Bob Bickford: Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: So I don't know, what are your thoughts on the meet and greet time?
Bob Bickford: Well, I, you know, I remember, COVID started changing that up a little bit, right? And prior to that, I think Rainer had come out prior to Covid with like, you know, 150 reasons why he did not want to do the greeting time in the service. And most of them, Tom's an introvert and, and he just doesn't like people.
So, you know, he's, that's what, so I mean, you gotta. Think of that, but I think there are a lot of people who are, they, they want an opportunity to be greeted at a pace and in a way that makes sense to them, that makes you feel like they're friendly, but they're, again, welcome and wanted not watched and not over greeted.
So I think part of it depends on the culture of your church and the culture of you as a pastor. Like how are you going to create it? So, uh, and what, how do you wanna shape it? Right? So I think that if the greeting [00:18:00] time becomes, A time where everybody greets everybody they're familiar with and doesn't say hi to the guests, then that's a problem.
if you want to have an opportunity where people can at least say hello to one another, I think you have to think how do I shape the culture so that we say a brief hello and that I ensure that my people who are regulars, if we have guests, will greet AP appropriately, greet the people who are.
our are, are genuinely and truly our guests. So I've always tended to be more of a let's shape the culture and let's, let's give a greeting, a brief greeting, because I think that's helpful for the body specifically if you don't have, you know, if, if in a good, healthy church, people are hanging out after the service, right?
So they're, they're talking a lot. They're connecting. Perhaps they're even coming early.
JimBo Stewart: Mm-hmm.
Bob Bickford: but if you, if you allow for a brief appropriate greeting time with some boundaries, I think it could be helpful. It's not absolutely necessary. [00:19:00] But if, if you ask me would I prefer a greeting time or not? A greeting time, I would say a modified greeting time with some boundaries.
The church we tend right now doesn't have a greeting time. I. but we all hang, but we greet one another. Those of us who've been there a while greet one another before, and we certainly hang out after the, after the church. I just think it's, and then my, my particular perspective is if I see a guest, I'm certainly gonna go at least say hello.
Right? So I think if your body is trained and equipped to be appropriately welcoming, then. You know, maybe a greening time or maybe not. but again, you gotta develop that culture. And I, I would say don't let a, don't let a introvert who doesn't like people tell you what you should do.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would say if, if you, if you don't do it, then you then is there a built in time for natural interaction in some way? Like there needs to be, right. This is not supposed to be, just. Sitting and consuming and facing the, the stage. if you do have a greeting time, then how do you keep it from being contrived and [00:20:00] kind of awkward for introverts, uh, which is statistically the largest part of your attendees, usually, but, uh, and I think you're right, some sort of modified way to do that.
Uh, you know, I think there are a lot of ways you could brainstorm that there's no definitive answer. The Bible doesn't tell us how to do a greeting time, so you gotta figure it out yourself. Right. and I think, you know, perhaps what if it's one of those where like, Hey, we're gonna take a minute just to say hello to each other.
And, if you're a guest here today, then you can take this moment to fill out a guest card or to look at our bulletin and the things we've got coming up. Like you could say some sort of way that gives like a freedom to feel like I. I, I can just sit here and just look at this bulletin if I want, or something like that.
I don't know if you could create some ways, but I think the biggest thing is the culture of, man, just getting to know people and creating a culture and finding people and, you know, inviting people to your small group, inviting 'em to lunch, inviting, like just building relationships naturally is really the way, I think it, it should be done.
The culture piece. Remembering that in a smaller church, everyone is on the hospitality team, right?[00:21:00]
Bob Bickford: Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: So then what do you do? How do you create a follow-up process, and then train a team to, to really help you with the follow-up. You know, a thank you for visiting. We'd love to get to know you more. I think part of that, we were just talking about you, you, you take people to lunch, and you train others that are good, hospitable people in your people that you know, would be a joy to go to lunch with.
And you say, Hey, why don't you. At least once a month. try to find somebody. And here's what I say, guests are not just somebody in the church you don't know well. And that, that's one, that's one of the things we did at Redemption is I would say, Hey, at least once a month, you ought to be gonna lunch with somebody or having 'em over to your house or something.
it can be a guest, it can be somebody in the church you don't know. Well, it doesn't need to be the same people every time. Like you can have lunch with those people all the other weeks, but at least once a month you ought to be eating lunch with somebody you've never had a meal with. And, whether that be a guest or somebody else in the church, and if you could just build something like that into the culture, I think that's [00:22:00] super helpful.
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm. I agree. To become a hospital, uh, excuse me, to become a hospitable church, you actually have to practice hospitality, right? So that, that's important for us to note that, that we may have the desire to be friendly, but here's, here's another thing, and, and we just struggle to do it. But here's another thing I would say, Jimbo, is we may have individuals in our church who just don't know how to do it.
Right. And they're just, they're uncomfortable with it. They're not good at it. They're introverts. And so man, partner up with them. Invite them to come along, right? And introduce them to the guest and show them how you have conversations with people that you don't know. Those sorts of things. And these are the things that our parents were supposed to teach us as we interacted with people we didn't know as children in the larger world, right?
In the community. But unfortunately, a lot of people just didn't, didn't get that for some reason. Right. And they don't know how to ask good questions and so [00:23:00] they, they, they're willing to, and I think most, most people wanna be friendly. They just may struggle to h how do I do it? And, and you have a minority of folks perhaps, that are just extreme introverts that are, that are really afraid of it, right?
The, the genius of the gospel message is that it is meant to be shared from person to person. And one of the discipleship trends that we have to help people develop is how do I have a conversation with people that I don't know Jesus was a master at it, right? And he would just walk up to people, people would walk up to him.
And so I think there's something there in, in terms of hospitality that, that we just need to lean into.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. And I think, people, even in even introverted people, all people want somewhere where they belong. and so you, you can help do that. This is one of the most beautiful things about the gospel, is it gives us somewhere that we belong no matter what. No matter our differences, we all stand on [00:24:00] level, ground at the cross.
all right, so they visited. They've had a great time. you know, A lot of, a lot of places in their hospitality or guest services give a gift, a coffee mug or something like that. I like the idea of a coffee mug. Not everybody drinks coffee though. one of the things we did is we picked a local diner and I.
Bought a bunch of $5 gift cards and, and what we would say is, Hey, somebody on our staff would love to, on our leadership, would love to just buy you lunch. Uh, or, or a cup of coffee. and so you can use that gift card when you meet with us or not. or you can go somewhere else, but just use that as a way to even initiate like, Hey, we'd love to follow up with an actual conversation.
Like, and in that conversation, we'll buy you a cup of coffee or we'll buy you a meal. and so if you're interested in that, let us know. and so we would give that out. Or for a while we would also give out a free Wednesday night dinner. We did Wednesday night dinners and, you know, they're, you know, they're cheap just to help cover costs five, six [00:25:00] bucks.
And so we would give a coupon for free Wednesday night dinner for a first time guest. And, it's an opportunity and just. To get somebody, just whatever you could do to get it to be a, a next touch. Uh, handwritten cards, uh, are great. I use, the Felt app, f e l t, on iPad and I could do handwritten cards if they gave us their information.
Phone calls are good. and this isn't just for guests. I know a pastor that. He, he takes note of every member that isn't there on Sunday, and he calls them the following week just to check on 'em.
Or he texts him. He either calls or texts just, and not to make 'em feel guilty, but just to say, Hey, I just wanted to know I missed you.
I, I, I missed seeing you there. Uh, and that's brought up a lot of really good conversations for him and created some relationships for him with his members.
Bob Bickford: Cool. Uh, yeah, I think those are great. I, I think you can even do something real simple. Um, if you don't have those, uh, you a cup or, you know, coupons or gift cards or something like that, you can simply give them, a we, and [00:26:00] we had some of these, we had a bag that with a, like a small bag with our church logo on it.
And then we had something that just talked about what is the gospel, right? It was a simple gospel book. Right? And because we weren't quite sure what background they might be coming from and we, we wanted them to, we wanted them to walk away with something that they spiritually could. Connect with, if they would, would spend some time with it, if they were interested in truly seeking to know more about Jesus and they didn't know about him.
And so we, we, you know, put a little card in there, a little note card, and then that book, what is the gospel? And then gave them, gave them that, or allowed 'em to get it. And we had a, a, a center, like a real simple place in the back of the, the corner of our church where they could just drop by and get it and we would mention it.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah, we had our bio, we changed our pew bibles to, view the story. Pew Bibles, paperback. And I would, I would just about every Sunday say, Hey, if this is your first time here or you don't own a Bible, you can have that one.
and what I encourage you is the first like eight [00:27:00] pages in color print are, are really, a summary of what this whole book is about and what we're about.
If you wanna see what it is we're about, you can take that home and you can read those, those pages, and it's a presentation of the gospel. and so it gives away just to continue, to glorify God and how we do that. hey listeners, we'd love to hear from you, like, what are the ideas you have for, for guests, for guest services, for hospitality that you've seen work really well, in your smaller church that you're revitalizing or replanting?
Shoot us a note, let us know.
Greetings Bootcampers, we hope you are staying cool, hydrated and ready for a next episode. This time the guys take up the subject of dispensing with negative thoughts. We get it, there are a lot of things that can go wrong as you are leading church renewal. And one of the most difficult aspects of leadership is keeping a positive outlook.
Let's ground this in scripture: 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. 5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, 6 being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete. 1 Corinthians 10:3-6
Mindfulness is a research-based practice that involves both dedicated meditation time and present-moment awareness in everyday life. It’s been shown to be helpful for reducing stress, calming anxiety, and improving overall mental and physical wellness.
However, most modern mindfulness research comes from a secular point of view. So our faith in Christ can both enrich and deepen our use of mindfulness. Also, learning to live mindfully will give us more peace, joy, and gratitude in our walk with God.[1]
Here are some suggestions from the guys for keeping your mind centered on God and healthy:
12* I appeal to you therefore, brothers,[a] by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.[b] 2* Do not be conformed to this world,[c] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.[d] 1. Regularly present yourself before the Lord – living sacrifice (devotional time, meditation time) 2. Perform a spiritual audit – “do not be conformed to this world.”
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- What are my concerns, worries, anxieties?
- What is driving me right now?
- What is underneath my frustration?
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Apply the scripture to the things that God reveals.
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Pride
- Worry
- Bitterness
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Doubt
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Test your attitudes and actions by the truth of God’s word
[1] https://www.calminggrace.com/christian-mindfulness-exercises/
Recommended Resource: The Other Half of Church by Jim Wilder
Fun Link: Poor Pitiful Me by Linda Rondstadt
Well Bootcampers, we love our sponsor, One Eighty Digital. We recommend you connect with them to get the inside scoop about revamping your website, digital branding and online presence. Tell them you are a Bootcamper.
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are, back at the bootcamp. Back at it again, Bob. I hope you're ready for the next episode. 2 0 2. pushing on through, keeping it going, keeping the train running, and delivering amazing content, uh, from the longest running Replant podcast in the world.
Bob Bickford: Do you think we are the longest running We might be. I
JimBo Stewart: I mean, for replanting, I, I think the replant, I mean, it depends on whether you count the new iteration or revitalize and replant as a replanted new podcast or as a continuation of what it used to be. 'cause they have outlasted us If you continue, if you counted as one whole thing. But with the reiteration of revitalize and replant, if, if it's a new thing, then we are the longest lasting on replanting, not on revitalization, but on replanting.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, that's good. I, I think we might have to invoke the, Southern Baptist, unofficial historian Luke Holmes to, make a call on that. Luke was a great guest a couple episodes [00:01:00]back,
and, uh, may maybe he can, maybe he can, uh, be the deciding voice on whether we're the longest or whether the reboot of revitalizing or replant with Mark Clifton.
And Mark Hallick and Dan Hurst and various assorted guests is actually a new thing. It seems like a new thing
to
me,
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. It feels like a.
Bob Bickford: so I, I'm happy to take that title and wrestle it from anybody who claims it.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I mean, let's be honest, there aren't very many podcasts about replanting. so it's not a, it's not a big pond. We're swimming in here, but.
Bob Bickford: It's more like a puddle, but Jimbo, it's enough to be a refreshing dip of cool water in the replant world.
JimBo Stewart: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think so. You know, the, the, the dozen people that listen to this podcast, contact us regularly and let us know how much they appreciate [00:02:00] it.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. And you know what, Jimbo, I, I think it's, I don't know that we've ever gotten criticism. I can't, I mean, surely we have, but I, I mean, maybe we only have fans. So
JimBo Stewart: Oh yeah. I mean, surely only, only supportive fans.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. Now that I say that, we'll probably have somebody that gets ticked off and writes us a letter.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, something like that. Well, last week, we talked about brain fog and fatigue, and my daughter's homemade stress ball blew up all over me and got flour all over me. and so we come back this week and kind of continue the theme. I. Of, the brain, the mind, how to think about things, and really talk about the, the disconnect, between what professing Christians know about the Bible's content and what they do about the Bible's content, and how do we, how do we get ourselves sometimes locked in a way of thinking and, [00:03:00] and our perpetuity of negativity, and how do we unlock that and, and get back on what we're supposed to be focused on.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. this reminds me of, a, a story that is part of the bickford lore. Like Christmas is Ruined. and I don't know if I've ever told it on this, podcast. Maybe I have, maybe I haven't, but it, it's.
JimBo Stewart: Even if you have, I'm just gonna pretend like it's brand new.
Bob Bickford: All right, great. So, uh, my brother-in-law was getting married and I was serving at a church in Texas and I had a conference to go to. And so Barb and the kids were gonna have to fly from Corpus Christi to Kansas City with a stop over in Dallas. So the kids are probably six and four at the time. The big kids.
So, Barb was a little nervous about flying by herself with other kids. The kids were a little bit nervous. I think they could feel it from mom. [00:04:00] so Barb gets 'em from Corpus to Dallas, and the D f W airport is not necessarily an easy airport to navigate. it's not my favorite airport. It's probably one of my least favorite airports, by the way.
So anyway, back in the day, she rolled in there and she thought, well, We we're here plenty of time. They found their gate. Let's go to McDonald's. Let's get the kids some happy meals. Let's, you know, feed 'em before the flight and then we'll get on our flight. Well, the gate changed and Jimbo, when you have a gate changed at D F W, you're usually pretty far away.
So she had to run with the kids, dragging them through the terminal, and she had to go all the way to, to, uh, almost the opposite end and. As they were about to embark on their foot race, my son dropped his bag and his happy meal, and he said this and exclaimed it very loudly. I knew this would happen. I knew we shouldn't have come,[00:05:00] and then he just melted down.
And so we often will say, back in the day, we used to call him Mr. Doomsday because he would just, man, he would. He would doomsday on stuff and Jimbo, that's us. Sometimes we get in our minds this is how it's gonna be. I knew this would happen. I knew I shouldn't have come, I knew I shouldn't have done this.
You know, so maybe a re planter's out there going, he probably says this, I didn't know this would happen, but, but I'm done.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, it's, it, they're, I'm, I'm a pretty naturally optimistic guy, even at times, overly optimistic. but you get into enough of a funk. With circumstances just continuously not going the way you thought they were gonna go. And it can become really easy to kinda get trapped in that and just assume, the worst about everything.
and then, you know, and that's a hard place to, that's [00:06:00] like. When I was in that season for a little while, man, it was hard to like show up on Sunday. it was hard on, on, you know, Wednesdays, on outreach days, on any day where I knew I had to interact with our people. I. it, was just really hard to be motivated because I, I couldn't get myself in a mindset that things were gonna be not horrible, like, and mind every interaction.
I thought, this is gonna be horrible. This is gonna be a horrible sermon, horrible day. I'm gonna get another complaints and critiques and, I mean, and nothing, God's not even moving here and I don't even know why we're here. And, you know it as, what is it? Clifton says, you know, where you've wanted to pull the fire alarm so that you didn't have to
Bob Bickford: I know. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And so that has to deal with your state of mind,
right. A lot of revitalizer and renewal pastors and re planters have been taking it on the chin for so long, maybe weeks, months, maybe even years, that [00:07:00] they're just in a mindset of, I don't know that I can take another shot. I don't know if I want to even talk to people or be around people.
I just kind want to do my sermon. And get outta here, right? So you get locked in that mindset. So I think we're gonna talk about this subject called mindfulness. Now, mindfulness is not a term that you're gonna find in the New Testament or the Old Testament. Uh, it's actually sort of a secular term. but the idea behind it is that you pay attention to the thoughts that are in your mind.
You pay attention to what you are thinking. And oftentimes what you will, will discover is that, Your thinking could be informed by emotion.
JimBo Stewart: Mm-hmm.
Bob Bickford: Negative emotion on the opposite side could be over optimism or your thinking could be based on lies that you believe or untruths that run counter to scripture. Or it could be just Jimbo that you, your thinking has, uh, drifted into a place that is dark and discouraging because it's just the [00:08:00] culmination of taking a lot of hits and being really fatigued.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, while you might not see the, the word, mindfulness, I think I think about second Corinthians chapter 10, where it tells us to take
take every thought captive. and, you know, one of the things that I've learned in studying the way the brain works is, there are a lot of parts of the brain.
But largely there's a limbic part of the brain that is emotion and trauma and some other things. And then there's the frontal lobe, which is logic and, decision making and, strategy and. They don't typically work very well at the same time together, and congruent. So you're typically primarily operating out of one part and not the other.
and when we can get so attached into the limbic brain and emotions and the like, man, it can just be so overwhelming and we're not even really [00:09:00] thinking logically. And, and when you think about that, you know, your frontal lobe isn't fully developed till you're like 20, 25 years old, right? And so, it's like reverting back to being 15 years old and now trying to make, you know, good, wise, rational, logical decisions, which most 15 year olds are not, very good at.
And so we, we have to really make sure we're in the right mindset and literally right part of our brain and take our thoughts captive and stop and evaluate where is this thought process coming from?
Bob Bickford: Yeah. Yeah. I just, I was, as you were saying, all that, I was thinking about what was 15 year old Jimbo like,
and yeah, that would've been, that's pre-Jesus Jimbo, right. I
think.
JimBo Stewart: Yes.
Yes.
Bob Bickford: That would've been that, that's a Jimbo I would like to have, uh, some videotape on and maybe see
JimBo Stewart: that cell phones and social media were not a a thing.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. So [00:10:00] if, if you get in that mindset, if you are trapped in that mindset and you need to, know, there's a lot about brain science that's been super helpful for us in terms of how do you. Chart a new, what's called a neural pathway. And I think we might have done some, a podcast on that before.
If I'm, if I don't recall. I know we've talked about it and I've done a presentation about it. you know, the church, uh, what the other half of church I think talks about that some, which is a good resource. But, when we think about pastors, and we think about getting a negative mindset, one of the things I just wanna draw us back to, you talked about the Corinthians passage.
I wanna bring us to Romans. And Paul writes, he says, I appeal to you, therefore brothers, by the mercies of God to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. And then here we go, and he talks about the mind. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, so that by testing you may discern what the will of God is, what is good and acceptable and perfect.[00:11:00]
So Paul points out some things here for us as we think about this idea of mindfulness, and we don't really specifically want to talk about Christian mindfulness and letting God have our minds and presenting our minds before him. So I think the, one of the first things that I would say is if you're in a brain fog, if you're stuck in a rutt and you're thinking if you're in a negative place, a good question to ask is, have you been regularly presenting yourself before the Lord as an, as a, a worshiper?
As a living sacrifice to say, Lord, here I am in my weakness, and here I am in my sin and Lord, you have saved me in Christ and I'm asking you to transform me. And I'm here saying that I want to be a useful servant in your hands for your purposes. And right now my mind is not in a position to do that
right. And so Paul's helping us see that part of our followership is regularly being a sacrifice or, or placing a, it's like placing, [00:12:00] placing a sacrifice on an altar, an it doesn't get up, it doesn't leave. It stays there it is. It's before the Lord. It's, it's to the Lord to use as, to use up for his glory and for his honor.
And so in many ways we might be able to, to, we might find ourselves in a position where we might be saying, Lord, I'm gonna have to lay myself on the altar and specifically my thinking, and I'm gonna have to, to offer my heart and my mind as a sacrifice and ask that you receive it
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: right.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. I think, just being able to recognize that your thinking is not headed in the right direction, taking that to the Lord and surrendering that, it's just a phenomenal first step. I think another thing is, is getting outside perspective. so one you can do that through. I mean, have talk to somebody and just be like, Hey man, I just need to vent.
And, can you, can you gimme some perspective here on, I. I'm missing what? I'm not like, here's, here's how I'm [00:13:00] interpreting what's going on right now. And, and somebody that is gonna help you normalize the emotions, but also analyze what's actually going on and help you see some real perspective. another thing that's good perspective, just see that like things probably aren't as bad as you think they are.
and, and not in the trite, like, well, other people have it worse, but like, Truly get outside of yourself a little bit? I think so. My wife deals with anxiety and depression and she calls it, uh, a disease of self focusness or something like that.
And we get so self, we get turned in so much on ourselves, that we, we really can't see what's going on with other people.
And so we had a, Sunday school teacher early in our marriage that was a medical doctor, and my wife went to him and was talking about some depression she was experiencing at the time. And he literally wrote on a prescription pad, go sit in an I C u, waiting room and pray for the
family.
Bob Bickford: Wow.
JimBo Stewart: and the idea being [00:14:00] like, I.
Man, that's, you wanna talk about real hardship and like, go sit in an I C U waiting room and watch his families. Don't, you know, I've been in that waiting room for loved ones and that's, that's the hardest, deepest, heaviest moments of your life. and, and just gives you perspective. Just if you could just pull yourself outta yourself for a little bit, and, and get some outside perspective of what's actually going on.
It can be helpful as you surrender that to the Lord.
Bob Bickford: Man, I love that advice. And it, it reminds me there's a really old song and I, your parents probably rocked out to this song and, you may have heard it, but there was a, a song that I, I can't even remember who, who, who it's by, we'll have to Spotify it, but Poor Pitiful Me. You remember that? Poor, poor Pitiful Me.
There's this song that just talks about, when we do become so absorbed in our own situation, we take pity, we start taking pity on our ourselves for our situ, for our situation. And, and that's a hard, hard place to.
There you go. Yeah. Linda Ronstadt. Yep. Yep. That was back in the, uh, late [00:15:00] seventies, early eighties.
I think. Probably something along along.
JimBo Stewart: 1977.
Bob Bickford: go, man. The bicentennial year almost, I guess a little after that.
So good times. so anyway, here's another thing. I think that that will be helpful and, Paul writes, do not be conformed to this world. Be transformed, by the renewal of your mind. So he, he's saying there are two categories here that we need to be aware of.
The, the world or the world is, category. That is the, some people used to use the old King James word, carnal, right? The fleshly world and then the spiritual world. And so there's a. A pull on our mind to be conformed to the way that our flesh or the world thinks, right? So a renewal pastor can think sometimes I'm not successful because they look at the world, the world's markers of success in terms of resources, size, notoriety.
Influence all [00:16:00] those sorts of things, right? There's a whole number of things that we could begin to give our mind to and think that would be more characteristic of the world. They could be negative things, they could be, overinflated things, all of these sorts of things. And so one of the things I think is, is important is if we could just sit down and perform a spiritual audit about our thinking, right?
And ask ourselves, is this biblical thinking or is this carnal, fleshly, sinful world? Thinking. Right? And that's what you talk about holding, taking your thoughts captive. And I would often do that, Jimbo, and have often done that. When I talk to myself, you ever, and here's the reality, most of us talk to ourselves, right?
You've probably had an encounter and you walked away from it and you said, man, I, that was stupid of me to say this, this, and this. Right? Or man, if I had just redone that, like, I, I wish I could have that conversation back. Or, these people are out for me, or, you know, whatever it is. Like you, you have all these thoughts that are going and so I think you [00:17:00] just have to ask yourself, what am I telling myself?
And is it, faithful to the scripture? Is it honoring to God? And is it true or is it condemning? Is it, self. Gratifying or satisfying to think these thoughts and are these things that I could put before the Lord and have him be pleased with me? And so like, do my, doing a spiritual audit is taking, taking into account the things that I'm telling myself about me or about the situation or the circumstances that I find myself in.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think part of a spiritual audit is, know, I always like to go back to the fruit of the spirit.
And look at like where, you know, where am I in the fruit of the spirit? Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control. Like am I, am I slipping on those? Am I, am I still kind of holding fast on those or, uh, you know, if I'm slipping on 'em, like, where is that?
Why is that what's going on? And I think probably, Part of that for a lot of pastors is gonna go back to what we [00:18:00] talked about last week, and that you have a frazzled schedule. You're over committed. you're overworked, you're under rested. you are not resting in Christ, you are not abiding in Christ.
You are, frantically trying to get an insane amount of things done, because you have some sort of pressure that you feel like you have to live up to something that. That really the, maybe, maybe somebody is making you try to live up to something, but the Lord is not.
and so you're not taking time to rest.
and I'm not just talking about taking a nap like rest in the Lord, like abide in Jesus, letting him be a refuge, a rest in the scriptures and and in worship, and and really let the Lord, be your strength in a time of trouble.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, it's a good segue for me to talk about the third thing I think we, we can do when we're, in this. Difficult space in terms of our thinking and our mind is really apply scripture to the things that God reveals. So we've done the spiritual audit, we've sat down, we've [00:19:00] talked about to ourselves, we've maybe even journaled.
Here's what I'm thinking. Here's what I'm dealing with. Here's what I'm struggling with. We've named it and something specific has come up. I think we need to then, like the, the Lord does often is, is to go to the scriptures and let the Lord apply the, the truth of scripture to whatever it is that God reveals.
Whether it be pride or worry or bitterness or doubt, whatever those things are, whether it's condemning ourselves, we just need to let the, the words speak to us to tell us truth, because that's what transforms our thinking in our
mind. Right. Not just identifying it and going, oh yeah, I'm thinking about this.
Right. Well, we've gotta replace that, right? You gotta clean it out. You've gotta move the old out and move the truth of God's word in so that you can live a vital, a vital and sustained life where the Lord is, is speaking and the Lord is equipping and the Lord is healing and the Lord is giving hope. and so this what renews our mind, not just looking and doing an audit, but bringing in the word of God to speak to the, [00:20:00] speak the truth, to the places that we need to hear it.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I mean, I, think for me, and I've mentioned this on here before podcast, before praying to the Psalms, daily, you know, the five Psalms of the day, pray, you know, I. Reading through Proverbs, things like that, that just consistently take you to the hope of the Lord and the Lord is your refuge, and, focus you on him and his greatness and not on yourself.
and not throwing a, a pity party. we've also talked on here at times, like sometimes when we throw pity parties, it's really good, kind of like the ICU I c u waiting room prescription, Read. people who went through like legit crazy suffering.
For, the Lord. you know, read Nick Ripkin's books, insanity of God or Insanity of Obedience.
Read Dietrich Bonhoeffer, read Corey Tin. Boom. Read, read some people who have real, and, and read how in those times, they had to really turn and find their hope in the Lord. 'cause there wasn't, there was no hope anywhere else. and, let the Lord use their witness and their [00:21:00] testimony to teach you how to take your thoughts captive.
Renew your mind. I. Focused on scripture, focused on his faithfulness, and find your hope in him again.
Bob Bickford: Love it. Jimbo. I, I think that, you know, we've wrapped up the. Some good, helpful suggestions. And I, I think maybe a good application point for our listeners, to do even right now as this podcast is closing, is just for them to maybe set a, a loan somewhere in silence and just ask the Lord to say, Hey, Jesus, would you reveal my thinking, to me?
And would you show me where it is unhelpful and unholy and not honoring to you and untrue? And would you lead me to the truth? I might understand you be healed, be whole and walk with you, in, faith experiencing fruitfulness, regardless of my circumstances.
JimBo Stewart: Absolutely. you know, I think Psalm 46 is a great psalm for a moment like this where it starts out, Psalm 46 starts out. With David talking about the Lord being the refuge. But then you get to verse 10 and [00:22:00] it's, you know, we most of us know verse 10, be still and know that I am God. And that that phrase be still is best translated some version of stop fighting or see striving.
and, kind of, kind of let go, stop. And, and let the Lord, and just sit, just sit in the goodness of the Lord and, talk to him. Share with him what's going on and, he really is there and he really is there for you, and he really is your refuge.
Welcome back Bootcampers! We hope you are doing well. Every single one of us has on occasion dealt with the challenge of "brain fog" and struggled to do even the most simple of tasks. Why? Pastoring is a 24/7 job and we never are fully disconnected from the weight of ministry. Brain drain and fatigue are real, you have to be proactive and get rest.
In a recent survey Pastor's said:
A study conducted by Soul Shepherding, a Christian leadership training ministry, found the following: * 75% of pastors report feeling extreme stress; * 90% work an average of 55-75 hours per week. * 90% feel fatigued each week * 70% struggle with depression. * 80% say their ministry has negatively impacted their marriage and family * 85% have never had the opportunity to take extended time off.[1]
What can a pastor do when they are just totally exhausted? The guys break down some practical realities and then offer some solutions. If you're tired, worn out and struggling to do the next thing, give this EP a listen.
Truths * We love to work-get stuff done and it feeds us (ego, drive, sense of accomplishment) * We love to feel needed. * Ministry is exhausting-it is never finished * We were not made to work and work and work (God mandated a day of rest, for reflection and renewal)
Application * Set a sane work schedule * Focus your work according to your wiring. + Creative + Admin + People + Meditation/Evaluation * Delegate and elevate – you cannot and are not supposed to do it all * Establish a daily quitting time (of course respond to emergencies) * Fellowship with Jesus (prayer, devotion, meditation)
[1] https://www.christianity.com/wiki/church/what-should-pastors-do-when-worn-out-and-weary.html
Don't let your lack of inspiration or knowledge keep you from getting a handle on your church web presence. Get with our great sponsor, One Eighty Digital. They have the know how and expertise to get you up and running. Let them know you are a Bootcamp listener.
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp. Bob, are you hope? Are you ready? I'm gonna, I gotta start over. That was not good.
TAKE 2
JimBo Stewart: Here we are, back at the bootcamp. Back at it again, Bob. I hope you're ready for the next episode, episode 201, as we move beyond the horizon of 200 episodes, up into the up upper echelons of Replanting podcast.
Bob Bickford: You know, Jimbo, I, I don't know about you, but maybe I'm feeling a little groggy because the air is so thin up here with, 200 plus episodes now, and. The way you fumbled that previous intro. I'm wondering if you're gonna be okay or do we, do we just need to shut this thing down or take a break?
JimBo Stewart: You know, we've got 200 episodes in. Surely there's nothing else for us to say. I think, just enjoy, enjoy the archives, guys. It's been good. I've enjoyed it.
Bob Bickford: But what do we know?
JimBo Stewart: What do I know? What do I know? No, let's jump in, [00:01:00] man. It's, in the heat of summer, man. Talk about mental fog and brain train. let's, let's jump into that because I think it's, that's a real thing, man.
When you, when, when too many things are going on at once and there's pressure and there's, the nonstop and, you know, you've preached the last. 47 Sundays in a row and, you know, it's, it can, it can start to really overwhelm you.
Bob Bickford: It Sure can. Jimbo, I and I get the sense that, you know, maybe some of us are there. Like, last night I was here. Here's a little tip before we jump in. I got a new propane grill for kind of birthday Father's Day combo.
JimBo Stewart: Was it from ikea? Because I saw that and.
Bob Bickford: No, they use solar ovens cuz they're from Sweden or whatever. Right. So they don't use any, any evil propane. But I, I made the mistake, Jimbo and I purposed in my heart, but I, I. I failed. I purposed in my heart to never [00:02:00] buy an assemble it yourself grill ever again. After assembling, I would say probably 95% of my grills and, Jimbo, I looked at the instruction sheet and the parts, and can I just tell you?
My heart sank. Like I just, I went to, I just went to a, a discouraged place immediately. I mean, I'm in the back, I'm sweating. There's mosquitoes, my pit bulls are barking. I can't get my TV to work, cuz, I mean, it just was all conspiring to make me really have a bad moment, Jimbo. And I thought, man, I, I think this is it.
Like, I think we're just, just stop, just everything right here.
JimBo Stewart: Never gonna grill it. Just put a George Foreman on the back porch and.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, you know, I got to thinking, well, what do we need to talk about here in the midst of the hot summer? And probably we need to talk about just this, this idea of fatigue and brain drain, like you mentioned, like it's a real deal.
So I looked up some statistics, Jimbo, that was, this was a [00:03:00] research, study by soul shepherding. And, here's some of the findings that they found in their survey. 75% of pastors report feeling extreme stress, not just stress, but extreme stress. 90% work an average of 55 to 75 hours per week. That's a pretty wide range, you know?
Uh, I think, you know, 20 hours there I think. But
JimBo Stewart: I wonder with that, how many of those answering that are bi-vocational and like that's on top of their
Bob Bickford: There you go.
JimBo Stewart: other ways of making funds.
Bob Bickford: You're, you're exactly right. I, I would say quite a few. Here's, here's the part that I think really caught my attention. 90% feel fatigued each week and they just are exhausted. Right. So we we're kind of, I was exhausted last night when I looked at the parts list and the, the. Prospect of having to put that grill together.
and I've talked to some other pastors recently and they're thankful for the summer, but they're just exhausted. So I thought, you know, we probably [00:04:00] need to talk about that. And so one of the passages I often think about and go to is Mark chapter six. Where Jesus is sent his disciples out, man, they're doing ministry and Mark is is the go as a gospel is.
And they did this and immediately they went here and then they did this. And it feels like there's so much action and you can read it and you can either be. Really excited about it. Or you can go, whew, that's a lot.
Right? So, and I think that's true for us, Jimbo, that we, we have one of two responses. So let me read the, the verse here.
What Jesus says to them after they come off the min, the ministry field, here's what he says to 'em. Come away with me. Let's go alone to a quiet place and rest for a while. And this was because many people were coming and going and they could not even eat. Right. So Jimbo, have you ever been having, have you ever had a meal, that you just felt like you couldn't eat it because you were so busy or there's so many things going on?
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, especially if I were helping cook it or, there's just so many people going, [00:05:00] you know, going around. We, we have, you know, large gatherings and or events at the church and, I have definitely experienced that before.
Bob Bickford: Or even you're so busy, you, you have to get out the door before breakfast. You have to work, you have to work through lunch, and then it's like late in the afternoon and you're thinking, oh man, I gotta, I gotta stop by a quick trip. Or Wawa, get some nachos, get a slice of pizza. You know, something like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna crash.
If I don't, I is Wawa, that's your place, right? That's your kind of, your quick trip.
JimBo Stewart: We have, we, yeah, we have Wawa down here now in, in Florida. I think Wawa's originally like a Yankee thing, but it, made, it made its way down to, to Jacksonville in the last several years.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. So all that to say is, is, uh, Jimbo, I, I have a hard time believing that our Lord wants us to work so much and be so busy and so drained that we don't even have time to take food to nourish our bodies.
JimBo Stewart: no. Definitely not. I, I, [00:06:00] I think it, and it's so easy, because in ministry the work is never done. I mean, there's always someone in the hospital, someone's house you need to visit, some marriage that needs counseling. Some committee that needs to be met with, some contractor that has to be negotiated with for your AC or your copier lease or something like, there's always.
Something there and, and I mean, there's always a sermon that you gotta have ready. and so it's really easy to get so consumed with all the things that you just never take a moment to sit and,
Bob Bickford: Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: recover.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, so I, I think you're right. I think let's point out a few truths about this exhausting nature of ministry and kind of work through those before we get to some applications. So let's, let's maybe dive a little bit deeper on the realities and the, the issues,
JimBo Stewart: Before we dive too, too deep, I have a to share with you.
Bob Bickford: okay. All right.
JimBo Stewart: So we're sitting here and I'm a little bit brain drained [00:07:00] cuz it's been a busy week. I took a couple weeks of vacation and now I'm trying to catch back up. My daughter has decided in her entrepreneurial spirit to start making stress balls, Bob, and, and she'll sell them to you.
I'm probably about to give her a public review. That's not good though. This is gonna be a, a Yelp elite. That's not good. She, she makes these stress balls with balloons and fills them with flour. And so, uh, as we started recording, I was fidgeting with this balloon. if our listeners could see, I would show you, but I'll show you, Bob, what just happened.
Bob Bickford: Jimbo. Jimbo. Looks like the thing exploded on your stomach.
JimBo Stewart: It did. It's exactly what happened. I don't know if you heard that pop about a minute ago. That was, a balloon full of flour that just popped all over me. and so that's this, this is the level of brain drain and fatigue I've hit is, [00:08:00] uh, I can't even use a stress ball properly right now.
Bob Bickford: Man, that's hilarious. There's so many things I wanna say right now that I can't, but I think, I think you should leave a review before she takes this thing public and goes on Etsy,
cuz
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: that won't be good.
JimBo Stewart: I mean, they're cute looking, but, there's, there's a flaw in the design.
Bob Bickford: yeah, yeah. Maybe you have to like double or triple balloon
JimBo Stewart: Something, something.
Bob Bickford: All right.
Let's talk about, let's talk about the truth of why we, uh, get into place where we're just exhausted and we work and work. Here's, here's the first one, Jimbo. Here it is. We love to work and we love to get stuff done,
right? There's a rush when you complete the checklist or even when you're doing ministry, right, and ministry is just.
For us, those of us who are called to it, man, we just love it and we engage in it. So I think that's one of the truths is like you can love your work so much that, it exhausts you. And I heard somebody say this one time, we shouldn't love the [00:09:00] ministry that we have for, Christ More than we love Christ.
I think you might have said that, uh, as well on some podcasts previous to this. so I think that's, and here's another one, and then I'd love to kind of have you. toss your thoughts in. But Jimbo, we also love to feel needed
and ministry is one of those things where, where we are needed, for what we bring to the table.
JimBo Stewart: and I think we've gotta be really careful that. this, this is a heart check. I think you've gotta do where, why are you busy? Are you busy because there are that many things that are actually important and urgent and have to get done? Or are you that busy because you're trying to justify.
Your existence and your role, or because you are trying to, whatever it is, earn earn your approval.
And I, I'll be really transparent and, and at a time in my ministry when I felt like nothing was going good spiritually. I would make myself really busy just to like, in my mind at least justify that I was at least given my [00:10:00] best effort. And even if, even if everything wasn't going good, you couldn't say that I was being lazy.
Right. And I, and I would think, and, and I would take pride and somebody would say, man, you're the hardest working pastor I've ever met. and I would take pride in that. but what it ultimately came down to is I was putting my hope in my own chariots and my own ability and my own strength and not in, resting in the Lord.
And, this is such a huge temptation and it's so easy to get deceived into this. and so we've gotta make sure we're checking our heart and our motivations as to why we're busy and why we're overwhelmed. What is it? What is it that we're doing that the Lord has actually called us to do? And what is it that we're doing that we have allowed ourselves or others to pressure us into thinking we have to do?
Bob Bickford: Yeah. I think one of the ways you, you really, can find out who you're doing it for and why you're doing it is what if it never goes, or what if, what if what you're doing goes without recognition or reward? So are you doing, are you doing this to feel good for yourself? Are you, are, are you doing this to feel like other people should notice how hard you're working?
All those sorts of things. but man, you, [00:11:00] you pointed out some really, really key things that we have to think through. We've already said this ministry is exhausting. It's never finished. So that, that's a true truism that, that we have to deal with. But here's, here's one last truism that I wanna share is we were not made just to work and work and work.
God mandated. A day of rest for reflection and renewal. This is hard for us as pastors because the Sabbath day for us is often associated with the, the one of the heaviest work days for us in terms of, you know, Sunday, the Sunday gathering, the. Maybe we've got some meetings, maybe we have to get there early.
Maybe we we're talking to some guys who are like, man, I've gotta, not only do I have to preach, but I have to make the coffee, I have to unlock the building, I have to lock the building. I have to, make the copies. I, you know, do all of these sorts of things. And so Sunday, Does not feel like a day of rest.
It feels like a day of extended work. And then it rinses and repeats, it starts [00:12:00] all over again on Monday. Right. And so, especially our bi-vocational brothers man, they are hitting the ground Monday, doing their, their work week stuff. They're, tent making kinds of responsibilities. And so it seems like it's really hard for us to find a, a space and a place to pull back and just renew and reflect.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, it's really fascinating that, you know, God chose to rest on the seventh day when obviously he does not need rest. And as you see, Jesus even addressed the idea of, I mean, the Sabbath can't become an idol in and of itself. And that's what we see Jesus address with the Pharisees and the Sadducees. but neglecting the necessity of rest is I think I. And this is in my own life, a a sinful attempt to put ourselves on the throne. and it's a, a way to go, you know, I've gotta make this happen. I've gotta do the work, I've gotta feel needed. and it's the opposite of humility. And man, James tells us they, God poses the proud. But he gives grace to the humble, [00:13:00] and I think in humility, part of humility is biblical self-awareness of recognition that I, this is not dependent on me.
God does not need me to do this work. he's allowing me to be a part of it, and it's a privilege that I get to serve him and his bride in this way. But in that I have to trust and you know, I was having a conversation with a guy when I was in Colorado and he was bringing up this kind of pressure that he was feeling to do just a ton more outreach, right?
And he was feeling like, you know, he is got this church, mostly senior adults, and we gotta get out there, we gotta do this and we gotta do this and we gotta do that. And just, when do I find time to get all these things done? And I was like, man, you don't, like, you're, you're not, you're not going to. And so you gotta.
Relieve that pressure a little bit and you've gotta recognize there are a few things that you know, God has called you to do, in shepherding this flock. And you do those as well as you can. And then whatever margin you have left after that, you figure out one baby step towards some outreach and discipleship, and you take those.
And then you just let it cook [00:14:00] slowly. Like a crock pot, right? Or, or like a smoker, not like a propane grill. you, you, you have to figure out how to do this thing at a pace that leaves you dependent on the power of the Holy Spirit at work in you.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, it's a good word. And, and I think a word that helps us transition to the application part. We talked about the, the realities. Now let's talk about maybe some, Application in terms of, if this is true, what do we do now? And I think the first one is to set a sane work schedule, right? So I, I, I think you have to set your schedule or your schedule will schedule your life, right?
You're, you, you've gotta take control of your schedule. So you're good friends with Jordan Rayner, he talks about scheduling and priority management. We've talked about block scheduling here before. and so whether you're full-time, part-time, bi-vocational, you have to take control of your schedule so your schedule doesn't take control of you.
And so I, I would say this, you need to think through in a given week, what, what are the [00:15:00]hours that I can commit and when can I commit them? And. Let your spouse speak into that. Obviously you're gonna have some accountability with your church and those sorts of things. and just to think through your schedule.
Now here's, here's the reality. Some people, Jimbo, man, they can get up super early in the morning and work all day, right? And then take the evening off. Or some people need to sleep a little bit later and get up and work and then maybe continue work. In the evening after family's gone to bed, you, you just kind of figure that out, right?
You've gotta balance that. Not neglect family, not neglect your social responsibilities and your home responsibilities, your work responsibilities. But some people work all the time because they love working and that's just not the the's, not a good practice, right? So our schedules, you're, you and I have different schedules.
We keep different schedules. We, we are flexible. You know, for, for instance this morning, we had some storms go through and I was awake like at 4, 4 30. And so I was like, you know what? I just gotta get up and get some work done. I'm awake. And, uh, rather than [00:16:00] battling sleep, you know, trying to go back to sleep, I was like, I'm just gonna get up and work.
So, man, I, I get a lot of stuff done about by 6, 6 30 and was great. And that may mean later this afternoon I may have to take a break. I may have to take a nap as I'm prone to doing. Cuz Jimbo, I'm an older guy now, so I have to take naps. but man, you, you gotta, you gotta get that schedule under control.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. mark Hallick in his book Leading Church Revitalization says our time is short, so we wanna be good stewards of our time and wise with the days that we have if we don't control our schedules. Everyone else will. The most important things that need to get done won't get done.
And when this happens, we will be reactive in our leadership versus proactive, and we'll be purposeful, purposeless, and not purposeful. We need to think carefully about how to take control of our schedules to bear the most fruit in our lives and our ministries for the fame of Jesus Christ. This is such a key issue and it's so hard.
part of that is you have to free yourself up from external expectations that are not. From God and are not real.[00:17:00] and then two, you've got you part of it. You really do have to work hard to manage your time and your task. I've been working really hard on that for the last year or so, trying to get better at that so that I can do well.
And I would tell you, I've been implementing a lot of the Jordan Rayner stuff and what's been helping me, I would say the greatest fruit I've gotten from it has not been that I've been more productive, although I have been more productive. It's that I'm more present. When I, when I walk away from work, because I, I've built this system, this commitment tracking system where all my commitments are there and they're stored, and so my brain's not trying to hold on to these things, which is part of what creates.
Brain drain and, and fatigue is our brain is trying to make sure we don't forget to do this and this and this and that thing. And the neuroscience has shown that like when we're doing that, we don't know the difference between the weight of those assignments. Our brain, our brain expends just as much energy trying to remember to take the trash out tomorrow as it does write your sermon.
[00:18:00] like and, and so. I was talking with Jordan Rain recently, and I haven't told you this yet. Bob, this is gonna be fun news for you. but he, Jordan has an online course that really takes the content of his book, redeeming your Time, and goes much, much deeper. I've yet to promote that course on this podcast because it's like $250.
now hear me, I think it's worth $250 and I honestly mean that cause if you'll, if you'll use it.
so I asked him for a discount code. Not only did he give me a discount code, it's the best discount code that's ever existed on the internet. The discount. Are you ready for this? If you go to Jordan Rainer, if you go to Jordan rayner.com and you sign up for the redeeming your time course, a $250 course and worth it.
Cause you also get a digital copy of the book when you do it. So if you haven't bought the book for you, can you get the book and the course? The code is Jimbo, think. I think for the first time in the history of the internet, I don't know that Jimbo's ever been a discount code before. but,
Bob Bickford: Maybe at the beef jerky store.[00:19:00]
JimBo Stewart: but it is now. Uh, so you go to Jordan raider.com, sign up for the redeeming your time course, or, or send me a, a, send us a message. I'll send you a link to the discounted one, and it knocks $200 off. So it's like, So it's like 47 something dollars, $47 some change, and that's the course. And you get a digital copy of the book.
it's a lot of work to put in, but it's, but it will, it'll reap a lot of good in your life and freeing up your brain if you'll put that stuff into action.
Bob Bickford: Awesome. Hey, here's the next one I wanna share. Focus your work according to your wiring, and here's what I mean by that. find out when you work best at developing content and your creative work, your sermon planning, what time of day and what time of the week is that? Think about admin and Jimbo. I try to do admin when I'm just tired.
Like, admin doesn't usually require a lot of thinking. It just just requires doing. So, I pretty much put those, admin [00:20:00] task at the end of my day rather than the first of my day. Cuz admin can become a black hole, right? It is. You know, one thing leads to another, leads to another. Also, think about this.
Do, when do you. Connect with people. When are you refreshed enough? When you're present enough, when, when are you not looking at your watch? When are you ready to, to interact with people? When can you be fully present? And that's gonna be maybe a particular day, a particular time. And then also, I would say this, you need to have a time when you just get alone and you meditate.
And you evaluate, right? You just, you think about the Lord, you think about your work, you think about what's important, and then you evaluate, you give critical thought, to how you're doing. And I would always do this at the end of my week, Jimbo, after the sermon and administration was done and all those sorts of things.
As I was moving in, into, uh, kind of the weekend time when I would take a, a, you know, half a day or more on Saturday, I would spend Friday morning just. Thinking about my work and thinking, about, and, I've heard pastors say this, you don't just need to work in things like [00:21:00] in ministry, but you also need to work on ministry.
So what I mean by that is you, you need to take some time to think about your thinking and thinking about your work and do some reflection. And so figure out. When those times are, when you can exercise those things, and I, I think that'll, that'll be helpful to you. One other thing, let me, let me share another thing and then we can kind of chew on this a little bit.
Delegate and elevate. Here's what I mean by that.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: Delegate something and then you take the next thing that's a l of a little higher importance. I can, if it's not administrative, that sort, but also delegate and elevate the responsibility of those. Whom you're delegating things to give them enough parameters and boundaries and permissions to say, I believe in you and I'm trusting you to handle this for us and for our church.
Now it's gonna be, maybe you're gonna have to test some things out to make sure that they're dependable and responsible and they'll, they'll make decisions. Align with your church's mission, vision, values. You know, guidelines, et cetera. But when you delegate, man, truly delegate and let people lead and [00:22:00] let them make a decision.
And then give, give, try to give things away permanently, so that you don't have to do those, those things over and over and over again.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, we've done a couple episodes on kind of related topics to that where we, uh, have talked about, discerning the difference between what's important and what is urgent. we've had, Bob Bumgarner on here to talk about situational leadership, which is kind of how to delegate and develop, in the right way.
But I think it's key in understanding like this is not on all, all on your shoulders. And, I have practiced and have coached others to practice Bob when you're in a really hard season where it's just overwhelming and there's just too much to get done, just be okay with some things not getting done. like, and figure, figure out what are the things that have to get done, like truly, really need to be done and do those well, and I mean, I'm not talking about being lazy. Do those well and then just like come to peace with the fact that it's not all gonna get done. Yeah. And that's, that's, that's okay. you don't have to get all the things done.
there are things you do have to get done, and you need to do [00:23:00] those, but. Just free yourself up a little bit, take some time away. take, do some things that refresh your soul. I like what you talk about, like, kind of figure out how you're wired. you know, everybody has a certain amount of energy burst in the day.
and nobody can run it full tilt all day.
I mean, you just can't, I mean without like performance enhancing drugs. And then eventually that runs out as well and probably probably gets you fired. hopefully gets you fired. But
Bob Bickford: use, people could use stuff like coffee. I mean
like a lot of caffeine, coffee,
JimBo Stewart: use coffee regularly,
Bob Bickford: drinks, you know, that sort of thing,
JimBo Stewart: but you only get so many energy burst in a day. And so, figure out how you're wired. Figure out and, know that God didn't make a mistake when he wired you and trust him and, put your hope in him and not in your own chariots.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. Last two things I'll share, Jimbo is establish a daily quitting time like this on Mondays. This is when I shut things down all the way through the rest of your week. you know, this is when I, when I end the workday. And then, the last and most important thing that takes us back to our verse when [00:24:00] Jesus invites them away, he doesn't invite them just to come and.
You know, play video game, video games and renew themselves, or watch tv or just, you know, what does he invite them to? He said, come and alone with me. Like, come and spend time with me. Right? And so some of the guys that are listening to this, the reason they're tired is, is they've been doing ministry for Jesus and not spending time with Jesus.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. And uh, you know, you get so busy doing the ministry, you forget that the whole thing was about you coming closer to Jesus and helping others get closer to Jesus.
Bob Bickford: Yep. There you go, Jimbo. I hope you're encouraged, and I hope you also have the flower off of your shirt at this point.
JimBo Stewart: Well, I am encouraged, but it's gonna take a good bit of effort to clean up this mess that I've made. So once, once we're done, I'll uh, be getting a vacuum cleaner and changing
clothes.
Bob Bickford: you go.
JimBo Stewart: All right. See you guys.
Well Bootcampers we made it! This is the 200th Episode! We had the opportunity to turn over the mic to one of our Replanter friends, Evan Skelton. He asked some great questions about our podcast, what we've learned and where things are heading in the future. We also get to hear from some of the friends of the Podcast along the way. This EP is a bit longer than usual, but there's some real gold in the conversation and comments.
We're grateful for your listening ear, thanks for giving us the opportunity encourage you in your work of renewal at the local church.
A special thanks to our great sponsor who makes this all possible, One Eighty Digital. Let them know you are a bootcamp listener and get their help with your website, branding and social media needs.
Stay tuned, EP 201 is on the way.
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Hey, bootcampers welcome to episode 200 of the replant bootcamp podcast. This is such a special episode and we are so excited. That you have decided to join with us for a little while for this. One of the reasons this is going to be very special and different from our normal episodes is it will be more than twice the length of our normal episodes. We hope that's good news to you. If not just stick around next week, we'll be back with our normal length of episodes.
There's a couple of reasons why this is going to be different and special to celebrate 200 episodes. One as we've brought on a special guest, Evan Skelton, who's been on here before to interview Bob and I, and that's the bulk of the content of this episode. But another reason is we have asked you to celebrate this with us and be a part of this episode.
And part of the way that many of you have done that is by sending in either written or audio recorded. Segments to be a part of this witness. I want to kick us off with one from Trevin wax, one of our former guests. Here's what he wrote in.
Hey guys. Congratulations on reaching the milestone of [00:01:00] 200 episodes. I don't know that I have a favorite moment from the podcast to share because my favorite moment happens frequently off the podcast. It's when I meet a pastor who has stepped into a COVID co-located. Vocational role and a small dying church and suddenly realizes that he's not just revitalizing, he's replanting that church.
And after I point him to this podcast and the resources that you and mark Clifton and the replant team are providing.
I will hear back a few weeks later. And I'll get a huge, thank you. And a comment on how you guys are speaking to the soul of what he's working toward and wrestling with at the church. And then I'll hear about how he's signing up for events and connecting with your team. And that is my favorite moment hearing that someone is being strengthened for ministry in their context. And it happens often.
And I'm glad to be just one chain in this brotherhood of linking arms. With pastors doing tough work in churches being renewed. Trevon. Thanks for sending that in. It's going to be segments like that. The interview segments that are going to [00:02:00] make this episode so different, so special. So maybe if you wrote in or you send an audio, you'll hear yours.
Just like this one from Kyle Buerrmann.
Kyle Bueermann:
Hey, Bob and Jimbo, Kyle Biman here from the Replant team alongside you guys, and also not another Baptist podcast. Just wanna say congratulations on your 200th episode. That's incredible. So grateful for you guys getting, to work alongside you and, uh, for the work you do on the podcast. to encourage, folks along the way in the replanning journey.
Keep up the good work guys. God bless you.
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp. Back at it again, Bob, and we've made it episode two, hundo.
Bob Bickford: It is amazing. Jimbo, we have, uh, surpassed what our first grade teachers thought we could do. We have surpassed what our cousins thought we could do. Only our grandparents Jimbo thought we could make it this far.
JimBo Stewart: Yep. There's not a long list of people who believed in us, but here we are. we have arrived. And now one of the longest running replanting podcast. Here's the key to becoming one of the longest podcasts in your category. Pick a super niche category And
Evan Skelton: You
be.
JimBo Stewart: And then just don't stop recording, no matter how low your listen stats are or how few people actually subscribe, like just keep recording and if nothing else, you can attain
Evan Skelton: That's right. Welcome to the Top Replanting podcast for plumbers in the Appalachian. There you go.
Bob Bickford: There you go. Jim. Our [00:01:00] frequent guests has joined us, as you can hear, by his fabulous voice, the one and.
JimBo Stewart: Evan, welcome to the bootcamp.
Evan Skelton: Hey, I'm glad to be back. It's been a while. Lot's changed in our life too, but it's a privilege. 200 episodes. This is incredible.
I'm
JimBo Stewart: man. Give us a real quick update on your ministry and what's going on with you since the last time you were on the podcast.
Evan Skelton: Yeah. So we, for those who are unaware, so I. My wife and I moved to St. Louis, Missouri about five years ago for us to replant a church here, from within. and, it was a pretty difficult journey for those first four years. can empathize with a lot of the highs and lows that have been shared on this podcast, and it's been such a comfort to me as well, as well as your friendships personally.
But, about last year, about January, Of 2022. God provided for our church in a pretty incredible way that our replant process that we prayed for and worked for he brought to a culmination through a merger, a pretty unexpected merger with, a brother in Christ here in the city [00:02:00] about three miles away that I love serving beside.
and, we're, Able to now not only engage our community, strategically and find stability, but we're in the building that Bayless Baptist is in paid off, we're able to pay off our debt, which was one of the major hindrances to Bayless paying a full-time pastor.
And, was able to baptize recently some of the, college students who had come to Bayles Baptist a few years ago. Um, and have been there in service. One of the guys that have been discipling over the last several years as a pastoral intern here and now, only God can write this story.
It's still full of a lot of uncharted territory, but I'm grateful to say, yeah, it's come to a culmination in big ways,
JimBo Stewart: That's awesome.
Evan Skelton: the next stage. Mm-hmm.
JimBo Stewart: That's awesome. Hey, well, here's what we, we wanna do. We wanted to bring you on. Here's one of the reasons we wanna bring you on. One, you're one of our favorite people evidenced by how often we bring you on here. but not, but here's what, here's what you need to know. Not only are you one of our favorite people, you may not know this, but you're one of our listeners favorite people.
I was looking at the stats and out of the top 10 most [00:03:00] listen to episodes of all time. number three and number six are with guest Evan Skelton.
Evan Skelton: Oh, well that's encouraging. I hope it wasn't because it was too controversial. They're just spreading it around.
JimBo Stewart: No, it's.
Bob Bickford: No, I, I think it was. It was great content, but I was also, on my Covid death bed for one of those episodes, and I think people were listening.
Evan Skelton: hanging on hoping you were gonna make it.
Bob Bickford: Well, I think they were gonna see who's this new guy and is he better than Bob? So I think that was, was the case in. Obviously you're an instructor at Missouri Baptist, you're, you know, a pastor, you're a creative writer, editor, so you, you've got lots of irons in the fire.
But Jimbo, if, if I ever get hit by the bus, Evan is the guy.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think, I think you're the next paper towel that comes out, as Bob likes to say.
Evan Skelton: next paper towel. Oh man. Well, guys, the early, it's a privilege.
Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: Well, here's what we wanna do, Evan. We wanna flip the script and I'm gonna, we're gonna swap the bootcamp mic over into your hands. And, for [00:04:00] the 200th episode, we thought it would be unique for us. Instead of us interviewing and leading the podcast, let's let somebody else lead for a change and so we are officially handing it over to you.
It's now your podcast.
Evan Skelton: Mm. Well, I, first thing I wanna say before we get into these questions, guys, is. along with so many of your listeners and so many of the leaders who are on this podcast, uh, this has been, such a, a gift of grace to me and to so many of our, those who listen to, help us persevere, to, also be reminded of the wonderful, steadfast love of Christ.
to hear war stories, to know that we're not alone, and also some of the, challenges. That we're, what challenges are on the horizon we can prepare ourselves for, which is gonna get some of our questions today. But I'm so grateful for both of you. Thank you for your friendship Bob, you've been a coach for me.
Many of you don't know this, but Bob is the, it's Bob's fault. We're in St. Louis. Um, we're very grateful. Bob was at, a, replant assessment in Denver and, has been one of my close friends and Jimbo and I just hung out [00:05:00] for a few days together. and in Colorado as well. And so, and just become, and I think over Panera, we didn't talk shop really at all, mostly about family and the Lord's work.
So thank you for both. But first question here is actually about friendship. I want to, I want to know, and I think many of us are, one of the things we love about Replant Boat Bootcamp is it's both of, you don't just speak as part practitioners, but you both appreciated and leaned on some on each other so much as friends.
And there's such a natural, there's just been such a. I think a perceived chemistry between the two, two of you. Tell me a little bit about that friendship. what's meant to you? over these four years, these 200 episodes, and what have you enjoyed most about hosting the podcast together?
Bob Bickford: Well. Man. You know, I think one of the things that, is, so great is when I'm around Jimbo, I always learn something new. Right. Not just a, some something's about him. Like Jimbo is a deep, well, he's a, he's a big onion, right? You start peeling back those layers, you're gonna get some really funny, interesting and incredible things.
And, I can guarantee you if I say to Jimbo, have you ever more than about 95% of the time, he [00:06:00] probably has in some way. So I think that's, that's pretty exciting. but seriously, I, I think, I always learn something when I'm around Jimbo. And love it. And then one of the things I, know that is, is helpful for me is so we just laugh.
We laugh about stuff, hard thing when we're going through hard pain things, when we're struggling. When my mom makes stupid comments on my Facebook, Jimbo makes fun of that. And we laugh together. and so one of the things it's, it's very rare that you, you are mostly always friendly with people that you work with. But on rare occasions, you become friends with people that you work with. And I would say that's true about me and Jimbo.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. I, by the way, my favorite comment of your mom's ever was, what was it like, how, I can't remember how she word it, so it's, I know it's not any of my business. I. But I love you. And it was something to do with like,
Bob Bickford: Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: it was
something to do with, with your fashion. it was, something you were wearing
Bob Bickford: I had,
JimBo Stewart: it mustache.
Bob Bickford: It was my mustache is when I shaved my, I had grown a beard over [00:07:00] like a vacation week and just for grins, shaved off everything, and had a mustache. And she, she said, you are a replant, you're not a goat roper. And I know it's none of my business, but I just love you. I think you, you,
Evan Skelton: a goat roper.
Bob Bickford: yeah.
JimBo Stewart: She loves you enough to not let you look like a goat roper.
Bob Bickford: yeah. yeah. So, you know, And then Jimbo trotted that line out the other day something was going on and he goes, I just, I know it's none of my business, but I love you so.
JimBo Stewart: No, it's, look man, the friendship with Bob has been, has been so good and I think he's right. Oftentimes you work with people, you become acquaintances and you definitely become friendly and cordial. cuz work would be miserable if you didn't. but Bob is somebody I just enjoy hanging out with. I'm constantly, I'm constantly learning from him, and from his experience cuz he is so much older than me. And so he double nickels over double nickels now. And, uh, and so he gets to, he gets to bring some wisdom and experience, like a big brother in a lot of [00:08:00] ways. and he challenges me. he's not afraid to challenge me when I need to be challenged. And, so through the podcast, through working together at Nam, I feel like I've become. a better man because of my friendship with Bob, and it just meant the world. When you travel as much as Bob and I do. It becomes difficult to have, good friendships because of how much
you travel.
And so having a really good friendship with Bob has become so valuable to me in that because we get to travel together, you know, at least once a week or so we're on screens, at least on the podcast.
And that feels like for us, at least for me, like we just met at a coffee shop and we're hanging out and we're just talking and, and enjoying each other. and so it's life giving when we get together.
Evan Skelton: so many ways, and I think you guys have emphasized this, just the importance of those kind of friendships for sustaining in the work that Christ has entrusted us. And that's one of the ways he, he designs for us to hold fast. Yeah. Yep. So grateful for it. Well, uh, let's think a little bit about replanting since this is what the podcast is out about.
I'm curious, since you're think, thinking back to the beginning of the podcast, what would [00:09:00]you say has changed over these 200 episodes about the work of replanting? things are, it feels like our culture's changing around us. Some of the di the dynamics and challenges have changed. What have you seen change and then what have you seen remain the same about replanting.
JimBo Stewart: Uh, I think one of the things we've seen. Change is, there's definitely been an increased awareness and excitement about the ministry of Replanting. And with that has been, a lot of innovations. And so one of the fun things we get to do with the bootcamp and with Nam is like, Identify where we're seeing God do some really cool stuff at other places and start learning from that. And so there's been, in the last year or so, a huge movement in a shift in the way we view replanting to fostering has become kind of a primary approach. that's been fascinating to me, just to see. And that didn't come from us. That didn't come from, we've been able to help resource that, but that didn't come from us. and. Seeing more and more churches now that are healthier and have the capacity are starting to, more of those are starting to ask, Hey, what would it look like for us to be ready to [00:10:00]replant, a dying church? And, so I feel like that lane has opened up a lot more as well. and then certainly Covid changed the world.
I mean, it changed the culture that we're in in so many ways. we started this in 2019 and. so much has changed since 2019 and obviously 2020 changed everything. and so I feel like full-time opportunities are out there than used to be. because of that and many other things. There's been an increased need for us to try to be really encouraging on this podcast. We've always wanted to be encouraging, but we feel a, a weight. when we talk to people as we're out and about and as we're on the podcast to make sure we're always encouraging.
Evan Skelton: Bob, I think of. How you have described covid, blew down on whatever was already happening in a church. So either the slowed growth or intensified decline.
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm.
Evan Skelton: And so how that's just, and then the response in that is just needing so much encouragement, guys to hold fast. It's help helpful too.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, you're, you're referring to, and I think we, heard about that with our, episode with Les McEwen when he talked about the life cycles of an organization and [00:11:00] what, and the impact of Covid. And so I think Les, has really helped us understand, but I do think that resonates when we're out speaking to.
Churches that are considering their future. And I guess what I would say is, two things stand out to me is one before, when a bunch of us were starting out in replanting, you know, 6, 7, 8, 9 years, 10 years ago or more, we were trying to survive, right? We were just like, what, what can I do to survive?
And then since then, the work of renewal, has become popularized in, in the academies with focuses of, doctoral ministry and revitalization, and there's been an explosion of resources and rural resources. And so I think now there's a language and there's vocabulary that we didn't have before when we first started out.
And even though our podcast is, you know, just as. Surprisingly, I guess it is four years old now. It surprises me to, to think it's that old. But, terms have been defined and now I think they're being applied. Right. And so I think that that's, that's a good thing. And I, I think the, the thing that I sense, that is changed a little bit is Jimbo alluded to this, is there's a decided need for partners in re [00:12:00]renewal work.
Partners through fostering, through mergers and adoptions and those sorts of things. I think when we were first starting out, it was the solo guy that's doing from a replant within like all three of us. The model that we did was a replant from within, and we would all say that that's probably the most difficult model to take on.
So I think the shift in the transition to partnership models of replanting are encouraging and helpful and I think are what's really gonna help this work move forward in the future.
Evan Skelton: I'm curious from both of you just to follow up on that. so Jimbo, you also mentioned this increased interest in fostering. Do you see that on both sides of the fostering equation? Because I hear a lot of churches that are, in wanting renewal in various stages of decline. Wanting a fostering relationship.
Do you see the other side? Healthy, thriving churches also interested in offering that.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. We, I feel like I have more conversations about that this year than the previous years in churches that are seeing this and, and they, their churches are going, we're not interested in. a full-time, long-term campus we're not [00:13:00] interested in, they hear the fostering model and they think that now that's something we are interested in getting into.
Right. We could, we could get into that a temporary time defined, how do we help this church? And, and it looks a lot of different ways, right? There's some really shorter partnerships of fostering, like we see in North Carolina and the way that they're doing some things to their state convention too.
I've helped churches negotiate a like three to five year. Fostering agreement and work through that. And it's, really a long-term partnership, but with this kind of loose grip of authority, with the very clearly stated goal of a desire for autonomy. And, it's become probably my favorite.
Model, just to see how that has expanded on both sides. We definitely are seeing that happen more often. And so, that's one of the conversations we are even having of how do we continue to equip the churches that are wanting to be fostered. We have a great book out there, pathways to Partnerships, but even beyond that book, how do we continue to deepen that ability to develop these churches because we are getting a number of [00:14:00] them saying, we don't even have a church that we know.
Needs it, but we're open. We want to do it.
Evan Skelton: Hmm. That's really encouraging to hear. obviously, Yeah, we see God's work for his church here in that way. so here's the question too with this is, so if you've seen these things change, what would you wanna reemphasize that has not changed about replanting?
Bob Bickford: would say the need, it's actually picked up steam. They're more, more and more, and congregations that need assistance and renewal of some sort. I think we're, we have maybe early, early. We, forecasted too early the wave of potential closures that were coming out of Covid. now we're three years post roughly.
and I think that, in years four and five, we might see churches intern to a season of more desperation. and so I think. The field is telling us to the AMS leaders that they have better than 80% of their churches that need some sort of renewal. Right. So I think that while that's the same, I think I just would wanna reemphasize, and this is hard for us sometimes and in particular me, I talk and speak [00:15:00] and lift out, lift up the banner of church renewal and replanting and revitalization so often that I forget. The uniqueness of it and the need of
it, because I'm in it, right? So it's like being in the forest. You don't see the trees. You just, you're dealing with the undergrowth, you're dealing with all those things, right? What's right in front of you. But I think when we, when I step away from it and they come back to it, I'm just impressed over and over again when someone, someone freshly comes to the reality of the church in North America and, and sees it and connects with it for the first time, says, oh my gosh.
We are in such need, right? So I think that remains the same. I'd wanna reemphasize that. just don't forget that if you're, if you're listening to us and you're engaged in it, then you're doing important work, right? And you are one church among thousands that is needed. in terms of being a gospel presence in North America.
So, stay at it. Right? Stay at it there, there's so many others. And by your, by your sheer effort and existence, and work with the Lord's [00:16:00] grace and strengthening, as you prevail, you encourage the rest of the body, right? And it's like the water and the harbor rises, and all the ships rise as you replant a church and another church has replanted and another, and another, the movement is strengthened and it grows.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I would say while we have seen an increase in awareness and excitement, what's still the same is it's not enough.
because at the same time, while I do have conversations with churches that are ready to foster and churches that are ready to take this on, to be honest, it's often rarely in the same geographic area that I'm having conversations with churches that need to be replanted and so that's the part where it's like, man, there's still.
Such a great need for this. And it's still really hard sometimes to find a partner church or a good re planter or, you know, and sometimes it doesn't happen. And the flip of that, that's still the same with that is we'll in residencies we will train up replants and then we don't have anywhere to put 'em, or we have re planters, you know, with nowhere to go or we've got, I I, I'm talking with a guy in [00:17:00]California that several churches have given their property to. That church, but he doesn't have re planters and and so there's just a lot of this like, man, how do we get enough awareness and enough momentum? And the other thing that I would say that hasn't changed is the foundational principles of
what it takes to replant a dying church. Right? And it's, it has to be focused on being biblically faithful, making disciples and missionally engaging your community.
And that that has to be kind of the primary activities and the primary things that you're doing. And, That hasn't changed and is not going to change. and that's the things that we kind of continue to repeat over and over. And we repeat a lot of those things over and over on purpose because that's what we have to continually be realigned to.
cuz it's so easy to just think. Man, it's just gotta be more modern or it's just gotta be more this, or, or, I'm not successful unless I'm big. And, and so we, we try to
just keep reminding and keep encouraging back to those basic [00:18:00] fundamentals. So,
Evan Skelton: That's helpful and I was gonna ask this question later, but along those lines of, okay, so the work of replanting has gotta still be rooted in a deep confidence in the scriptures, a commitment to the power of this spirit. returning to the work of discipleship, tell me a little bit more about what are some of the convictions for you personally that you've noticed over these.
200 episodes that maybe have shifted or maybe have become more rooted and become more committed to
JimBo Stewart: [00:19:00] [00:20:00] I have grown deeper in my conviction of the equipping side of that. Not so I agree with Bob on the funding side, but for me, just how are we equipping people to lead churches in renewal and. how do we get seminaries to use content that is going to, point people in the right direction of pursuing health and not just large and cool and modern, but then how do we equip them for the, consistent difficulties they're going to experience, in trying to do something like this and the spiritual warfare and so their character and their competency, and really a, a deep need for both of those.
Right. And
the past, I always go to, in Psalm 70 eights, He, he shepherded them with a pure heart [00:21:00] and skillful hands. And how do, how do we continue to lead leaders of all kinds to have, the pure heart of good character and the skillful hands of good competence because the need is there for the churches, but it is hard, difficult work and.
Just having good character won't be enough and just being skilled won't be enough.
Evan Skelton: Mm-hmm.
JimBo Stewart: and so we really have gotta get more robust in how we are helping prepare people for this.
Bob Bickford: Yeah.
Good word.
Evan Skelton: And how we're forming them and how we're helping them sustain. Yeah. just to riff on that a bit. So you, you've both have mentioned just the need has not changed. In fact, it's grown, not only for the, for, for churches that are in need of renewal, but the need for good leaders.
Talk about the difficulty of that and raising those up. I'm curious if you, if you could just speak directly to those who are hearing this podcast that perhaps are considering the work of replanting. We know that so many, men that are drawn to pastoral ministry they're weighing, the cost of becoming a lead pastor.
Let, let alone in a context like you're talking about, we have [00:22:00] more men who are interested in associate positions. if ministry at all, just the cultural costs, let alone the idea of doing something co vocationally. speak to, if you wanna speak to, what would you say to those, those who are wondering if God might.
Be calling into that work and wondering if those costs are worth it, especially if they're going to increase in terms of the difficulty.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, so I think the, the short answer is worth it on this side of life. yes, rewarded on this side of life, maybe not fully. but I think ultimately in the big picture of things, as we follow the Lord in obedience, he blesses in ways that we may consider, the, the, the culture may not consider material, in some ways right.
or beneficial in some ways. But I, you know, I think Gavin, e every single one of us, you know, you, me and Jimbo, We've been in a hard season of ministry. And then if we have a spiritual conversation with somebody where they see a new truth from scripture or they have a reconciled relationship, or they, they take a step of faith or obedience and maturity, I mean, that is worth it.
[00:23:00] Right? That's worth a bad week. That's worth all the, the headache and the frustration, and we feel like, okay, there's an eternal point that's been placed on the scoreboard for the Lord, right, for the team. That person, a person advances in the maturity of the Christ. So it just brings me back to my, you know, my replanting theme verse Colossians 1 28 and 29, that just talks about the fact that, we present Christ Hemal claim, warning and teaching everyone with all wisdom.
And here's the goal that we may present. Everyone mature in Christ. The goal is to help those mature who are under my care. And if, we can see that happen, if I can see that happen, man, I think that's worth it. So, If you are called to the work of ministry, know that the reward is not in recognition from your peers.
The convention, the outreach, fastest growing list, the stats on your podcast downloads, the likes on your social media, all of those things. The Lord's not gonna, he's not gonna look at any of that. He's gonna look at the [00:24:00] sheep that he entrusted to you and ask you how did you care for them and. So, I would say that is hearing well done from the Lord by helping a congregation of 40, like 80% of them take a step of maturity.
Is that worth it? I would say in the eternal scheme of things, yes. in the temporal world, most people would have the question mark, I, is it worth it? But I think if you, if you're truly engaging in seeking the Lord and, and call and drawn and called by him to do ministry, it's absolutely worth it.
And so it's gonna cost a lot. It's full talk contact sport. It's gonna hurt. You're gonna get some headwinds, but you're also gonna be, formed in the image of Christ. Because as much as we called to. Ministry for the glory of God. God calls us to do the ministry, calls us to ministry so that he might be glorified in us through process of sanctification, right?
So, I think absolutely if you're called to it, man, yes, pursue it. Be equipped, be empowered, be encouraged. Be in fellowship with [00:25:00] others and, go for it. It is absolutely worth it, but it's not like anything that you've ever really tried to do, before, most likely.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I would shortly echo that in that if the Lord has called you to it, then it's worth it.
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm.
JimBo Stewart: and that's true. Whatever it is, right? Because we have no, we just have to trust him with the harvest and we have to trust him that we may not even get to see really a lot of what the harvest is gonna be, but just trust him that there is harvest and trust him that he's, he's not wasting our time and we are not wasting our time.
And,
we're putting energy into something that glorifies him and brings people closer to him, even if that amount of people that it brings closer to him. Small.
This is not just preacher talk. it really is worth it. I am absolutely convinced that when we get to heaven, those with the most crowns and jewels and their crowns to lay at the fear of Jesus will be people we have never heard of. you know, it won't be the big, huge names that get to speak at all the huge conferences and do all [00:26:00] like, and write all the books and, It will be people like you've never heard of that just faithfully served God, where God called them to be in obscurity and plotted. and I know for us, that's so many of our listeners is guys who are, are not getting asked to speak anywhere or do anything.
but they're showing up and they're discipling people and they're preaching the word and they're loving their community. And I honestly am convinced that they'll end up with the most jewels in their crown, lay at the feet of Jesus.
Evan Skelton: You know, I, I think, something both of you have been so good to remind me of and, in the midst of this, is that the way of. Christ is the way of the cross. Jesus promises us that not only is suffering something we cannot avoid, but it's actually through the weakness and it's through the losses and through the disappointments and the strangeness of choosing things that everyone else neglects and avoids, that the strength of Christ shines the glory of.
Guys, God shines. Brilliant. And so I would say, it's [00:27:00] something that I have heard and I'm so grateful and need to continue to hear being as committed to this work as I ever have been. And I hope others who on this podcast are hearing as well is that if there's any part of you that is drawn to seeing Christ glorified in this way and to the, you have this strange.
Itch to commit to a work that's very difficult, and unpredictable, and the challenges that come with it. because you want to, because you believe that the Holy Spirit works through his church, and you believe that, uh, again, it is through, as Paul has often, Paul often says it's through his weakness, that Christ's glory is shown off as His strength is made perfect. Then, pursue that. You're going to need partnership, you're going to need resources. But here also, one of the things I'm so encouraged to hear is that watch how God is also providing for our churches as the costs have increased.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Evan Skelton: and, we cannot isolate.
We will wither. The Lord is raising up men like you who are drawn to the ministry. And providing resources so that you [00:28:00] would sustain. And so, tell me the, next question was, for, we got a lot of new listeners on here, so, If you were to. send them back.
in those last 200 episodes, what are some of those gold nuggets or conversations that stand out to you, you would recommend them to go back and listen to, as they catch up on what's taking place? As much as it'd be great for them to listen to all 200.
Bob Bickford: Well, yeah. Start now, right? And catch up just when you're on a long road trip. man, a couple, couple things stand out. I think, any of the ones that deal with, uh, dealing with conflict or change or struggle, mean most of the guys tend to, reach out during those times that need help during those times.
And so one of the great things about our website with our great partner, 180 Digital, they put in a search box. And so we've tagged the episodes and the show notes and all that kinda stuff. So if you, if you have a need, and you're struggling. Just put, type that in the search bar and then pull that up.
So I would say that that typically is the number one needs, guys like, Hey, I've got an issue with this. And it's, it's under the umbrella of struggle, [00:29:00] like an issue, issue with like leading change or those sorts of things. One of my favorite all times one is, uh, how not to lead change. And that was like one of the first ones out of the gate where Jimbo, tells a story about sawing a p and a half with the chainsaw and scaring the W ladies and. For me, that is just still one of the most, memorable and fun episodes, and I think just a good one right out of the gate. I think that cemented our, podcast, history and, we planted a flag in the ground with that one. And, uh, I just, I still love that story and I love that podcast.
That was an early one.
JimBo Stewart: It was episode three, how, how
Not to
Lead, facility changes.
Bob Bickford: There you go. Yeah. And then also how not to do a name change. I think you, you
finally got over the,
Yeah.
You, you got over the PTs d of being able to not talk about it and then you could talk about it. So, uh, I think that one. And then, if you're just starting out in replant and you wanna change the bylaws, search the bylaws episodes.
Cause we tell you, you don't have to change it [00:30:00] right away. so there's some good ones there.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I would say man, we've had a lot of really fun guests on, that I've just been a blast. I mean, that we've gotten to build friendships with, uh, you've been one of those multiple times. Evan, one of our other top 10, and I love this cuz here's what I love. We've had some pretty well known guests on here and none of them are in our top 10 episodes.
and.
Like
our, our, top guests are like you and Jesse Peters and, like random people like that. I think the only one that made the top 10 was Brian Croft, and he's a good friend of the podcast
and, he's, he's maybe the most well known that made the top 10. but one of my favorite guests was Fred Luter. And, hearing for hearing his story of replanting in New Orleans and, just such a good story. And then even the, like, the, the behind the scenes of that was like how complicatedly difficult it was to get him onto Zoom. he is not a technological person. I've known Fred and his [00:31:00] son Chip for a long time, and so I was able to mess with them a little bit about it behind the scenes.
But, it, it was, I think, I think we had to like, Literally like FaceTime someone else looking at a computer. Like it was like, it was
Bob Bickford: Yes.
JimBo Stewart: Like, cause he couldn't figure out how to,
Bob Bickford: We had to hire a courier and a, and a balloon delivery and meal DoorDash person to go take him a phone that we ordered from Best Buy and turned. Have the guy turn it. I mean, it was, it was nuts
JimBo Stewart: it was so complicated.
Bob Bickford: But, then once he got, once he got on, man, it was great. It was one of the, one of the best ones.
It
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, we've had some, I mean, some of my great friends we've had on the people I've known for a long time, I think some of my other favorites are like, early on, we did replant hacks, and they were just, Practical episodes we're just talking about like, Hey, here's good software for you to use, or Here's a good way to save time doing this.
Or here's something for you. Consider like just random. You should wear Thompsons Ts because Thompsons ts hide your pit stains and it's an undershirt that is
designed. [00:32:00]
Yeah, I, I'm a Thompson T user man regularly, and I, you know, I keep trying to figure out if we could get sponsored by 'em cause I think it's the perfect pastor sponsor.
Bob Bickford: There you go.
JimBo Stewart: Most pastors need, uh, Thompson T and then honestly, my favorites though, that I point people to a lot is like we did a lot of little mini series. so we did one that I really liked called Leadership Judo. based on your leadership style, how, what should you consider and how should you lead people that have that style?
you know, using Visionary operator processor synergist, from Les McEwen. and I think that one was really good. Bob's creating momentum for change. we did one on characteristics of, godly leadership that I felt like was really, really good. there's several series like that, and one of the things that I really love.
Is, we have over the last year added blogs and so we have brought on, Aaron Cofield and Caleb Duncan are every week now, taking the episode of that week. And they're turning it into, they're writing it in their [00:33:00] own voice and everything, but with the same general advice, into a podcast, into a blog episode on Fridays.
Because one of the things we've found is some people just don't like listening to podcasts And here's, here's why we did that. We're not trying to grow our presence. Bob and I started, one of the questions we always ask ourself with just about every episode is, would this be a helpful resource for me to text to somebody when they, like, I go meet with a pastor.
Is this a conversation that might come up and they go, man, you know what I need help with is this? Or, or, and be go, oh, we've got an episode on that. And that's my favorite thing to do is, is get a message from somebody, be out in the field and they go. Man, you know, I really need some help of with church conflict.
Okay, well let me, I'm gonna send you a couple episodes that I think you should listen to, or if you'd rather blog post, I can send you a blog post. and that's the goal. So the goal for us isn't how many listeners can we get? it is how much can we help those who listen?
Evan Skelton: Hmm. That's great. Well, let's, let's think towards the future. Kinda last question. So thinking, what are some. of the main [00:34:00] challenges and opportunities, maybe in addition to what you've already said or including what you've already said, that you see coming up on the horizon for replanting work and what can, listeners expect look forward to in upcoming episodes?
Bob Bickford: Yeah, so challenges and opportunities for replanting. and I think the number of churches that are on the precipice of closure and the number of. Renewal pastors who are needed to, to step into those churches. I think those are some, some things that we're gonna continue to need to focus on here in how do help those churches, Meet with the Lord and decide with the Lord's leadership what their future is, and then how do we continue to ask, and make the call, to call out those who are called to the work of replanting.
So I, think those are some of the, on the horizon. That's what I see. and in terms for us, man, I, I think Jimbo and I are, we wanna be sensitive to how the Lord leads and, and what we choose to talk about. And we'd love to hear from our listeners in, in terms of issues they're facing and things that they're dealing with.
And then really too, I think one, one of the things that's been so helpful is when we [00:35:00] are in the field, at the conventions or conferences or associational meetings or whatever, man, we, we hear from listeners who come up and talk to us about what they're going through. And so what I would say is, man, we, we want to hear from you.
We want to meet you. We'd love to grab a picture with you, shake your hand, hear about your story. We'd also like to hear what would be helpful to you, for us to, consider in terms of content for the, for the podcast.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I, I, I was, I want to echo that, that I think the most helpful content we provide. Is in response to a direct question from
a listener.
and so man, reach out to us on social media. If you have our number, reach out to us. email us replant bootcamp gmail.com. it's our favorite thing is to work through topics that you guys want to talk about or to bring you on and talk about it.
And, What's coming in the future? I think it's just more of the things we've talked about. More of a need. I, I'm seeing an increasing desire in the academic world to talk about replanting and that's been really cool to watch. and so I'm excited to see what comes from that. and. [00:36:00] Just how do we continue to get more people aware of the hope that replanting brings?
This is not just about, let's talk about dying churches. This is about, let's talk about having hope in Jesus for churches that are struggling and so I'm excited to see as we continue to come up with ways to serve that need together.
Evan Skelton: Hmm. That's great guys. Bob, you've mentioned too, I think at one point that we're starting to finally get some metrics on, we're able to, can you speak to that a little bit? We we're able to now see some of the, current state of things. What are, what is working?
Bob Bickford: Yeah, since 2019, we, since before 2019, we've been recording, a lot of information about replants, but specifically through the annual church profile and through our counting of replants we're, we've got a growing data set that we're starting to explore to see. What the data shows us in terms of replanting and, and the fruitfulness of it.
So, I'm hopeful in, in the year to year to come to be able to unpack some of that with us. We've got our great friend, uh, Josh Dryer doubled doc, who's doing some research on that. One of our [00:37:00]teammates at Nam Blake, Diebel, who's looking at that. And so in the future, I think we're gonna have some actual hard statistics, not just Facebook polls or chat group polls.
We're gonna have some hard statistics on. The viability of the different replant models and, and what we see working. So I'm looking forward to, being able to unpack and that even segues with Jimbo's comment. there's great academic research that needs to be done and uh, so if you are considering a PhD or a DM and you're interested in revitalization, contact us at nam.
Contact us here at the bootcamp. We've got plenty of projects we'd like to turn the loose on for you guys to help us, figure out what the Lord's doing in the field, in the work of church renewal.
Evan Skelton: Hm, well, any final reflections, as you look back at these, 200 episodes for your both. Any last words you would say for this, this 200th episode?
JimBo Stewart: In the words of the wise Mark Clifton, well, what do I know? Anyway?
Bob Bickford: Jimbo, I know it's none of my business, but I love you anyway.
JimBo Stewart: Christmas is ruined.
Evan Skelton: [00:38:00] Well, Papa Bob, brother Jambo. Thank you. Very great.
This is great.
guys.
JimBo Stewart: All right. Thanks for being a part of episode 200 with us, Evan, and for those of you that have made it this far into listening to the longest ever replant bootcamp episode that has ever existed, we love you. let us know how we can continue to serve you well.
Welcome Bootcampers! We got our math right! Next week we're celebrating our 200th EP! We'd love to hear from you! Drop us a line about how the Bootcamp has helped you!
In this EP the guys take some time to break down their thoughts about the importance of not missing people in the midst of doing ministry.
Here are some of the highlights: * Loving people is central to our calling: + Greatest commandment (and the second is like it) Love God and Love Others + John 13 – Jesus says people will know us by our love. * Loving and leading people well requires that we LISTEN well + Patch Adams says his initial interview with a new patient is 3-4 hours + "In the midst of a turbulent, often chaotic world, ministers are called to be contemplatives, to be people who 'listen' to the voice of God and to the voices of those who suffer." – Henri Nouwen + James 1:19 – My dear brothers and sisters, understand this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger, * Community is a central human need + Dietrich Bonhoeffer said "Christian community is like the Christian's sanctification. It is a gift of God which we cannot claim." + Acts 2:42, 44-47 - "They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer... All the believers were together and had everything in common... And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved." * Its ok to not be ok but its not ok to stay there + Loving people means LEANING into sanctification
We'd love to hear your thoughts, drop us a line, voice mail, comment.
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JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are. Back at it again. Back at the bootcamp. Bob, I hope you're ready for the next episode. I am coming fresh off of vacation at the nicest ministry retreat center I have ever seen or heard of for pastors.
Bob Bickford: Amazing. Where, so tell us about it. Where is it at?
JimBo Stewart: it is in, outside of, it's in Rim Bear. South Carolina, I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly. R e m b e r T. Very rural area, historic with the, revolutionary War and Civil War, in this area. and this family who has a lot of land and have built nice houses, cottages for pastors and missionaries to come.
And, man, it was, I think it's called Pine Grove Plantation. And it was mind blowingly, nice, refreshing, really great pool and beautiful scenery, uh, pond and kayaking the whole deal. Man, it was pretty incredible. So,
Bob Bickford: Man, that's great. I, I love it when, folks invest in pastors and. Give them opportunities to get away and, and [00:01:00] refresh. It's much needed. And I, I think some of our listeners, man, we, we've talked about this a couple episodes ago. if you are not taking some downtime during the summer, please avail yourself to it.
And, we talk about on that podcast, and I think we even had Brian Croft mention, A lot of guys are afraid to leave cuz they're afraid that they are going to re-key their office and move their study books and all that sort of thing. And it's like, if you are not taking a break because you are afraid of people, you might need to consider a call to another church, you
know,
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I mean, just take the break and if you know, maybe they do re-key it, who
Bob Bickford: and take it as the, take it as the Lord's sovereignty. And you had your last Sunday and you, you didn't get fired publicly or something.
JimBo Stewart: I mean, that's easy for us to talk to. I'm sure that's a pretty horrible experience.
But there, there are some really great places, uh, I mean the Shepherd's House. Talk about Brian Croft and Practical shepherding Shepherd's House they have in Louisville. You can, there's some great opportunities out there for pastors to [00:02:00] have, cheap or free.
inexpensive, vacation getaway opportunities. And so we've talked about all that. Another episode, Hey Bob. When I last week's episode, I had my math all wrong. I said, if my math was right, that was episode 1 99. My epi, my math was not right, but today my math is right cause I'm not doing it impromptu.
I looked into it. And this is episode 1 99.
Bob Bickford: Wow.
JimBo Stewart: So that means next week is 200 you don't wanna miss next week. It's gonna be different and fun and good if all the things we're trying to make happen happen. It's gonna be a really good opportunity, just to learn more about us. I think, it's gonna be an interesting episode.
But here's what I would love to do, is I would love for you to be a part of that episode. So we're gonna have a link to a survey in the show notes where you can leave, a written, I, I had a thing, I have to look at the settings where you can submit a audio file. A lot of people have trouble getting that to work, so you can also [00:03:00] email us.
And here's the deal. You can email us anytime, not just for episode 200. Replant bootcamp gmail.com. And if you will email us, uh, if you email us an audio file, we just might most likely use that in episode 200. but you can always email us. There's no questions or whatever. We would love to hear from you.
what's meant something to you, how's the bootcamp helped you or served you? or just made you laugh a lot, even if the, how we've helped you is just good restaurant recommendations. Like, we would love to hear that. And, And so, so hit us up, let us know, and look forward to episode 200 next week.
Bob Bickford: I love it. I'm excited. Jimbo, this, this absolutely Siemens, our podcast as a, a podcast that separates itself from many others cuz most don't get past a handful of episodes. And so we've been doing this thing for. 200 sessions, and I think it's been a lot of fun.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, there's a couple bonus episodes in there too. So we're over 200 episodes total already, but, this is episode [00:04:00] 1 99. Hey, and for episode 1 9 99, here's what I was thinking about, Bob. I was talking with Bob Bumgarner recently and he challenged me to do something that seemed really random. He said, I want you to go watch rewatch or watch the movie Patch Adams.
and I was like, okay. I mean, I remember enjoying that as a child, and. He said, go watch Patch Adams and think about it through the realm of church revitalization and renewal, especially our role from an association in serving dying churches and declining churches and, leading them to renewal. And Bob, have you seen the movie?
Have, are you a Patch Adams fan? Have you watched the movie Patch Adams?
Bob Bickford: Jimbo, sadly, I think that was during my, uh, homeschool, military sequester days when I was disallowed from all
JimBo Stewart: So,
Bob Bickford: I'm
just joking.
JimBo Stewart: ha ha. Happy shiny people. Bill Gothard.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, well, I don't think we want to go there. Derail, derail the whole episode. We might, we, this might be the last episode if we, went, did that Jimbo, but, uh, no, you know [00:05:00]what? I think it was during, I can't remember what year it came out.
But I, I might have been in the, throes of youth ministry in a church with choir robes and handbells and fighting it out for just trying to survive.
I think that's probably what was going on, and I didn't have time for movies. I was just trying to survive, I think.
JimBo Stewart: Well, it's a movie based on a true story about this guy, hunter Adams, nicknamed Patch Adams, who, had started pre-med school and then, was disillusioned by how impersonal it was and, cold and clinical and. So he went to, I, I looked into, this is not all in the movie. I, I did extra research for you.
Bob Bickford: Oh man.
JimBo Stewart: so from there he went on to be a, a lion tamer. a maintenance man. I mean, just all sorts of random things. And he became disillusioned with life. And this is where you see in the movie it picks up, is he becomes disillusioned with life and became suicidal, had suicidal thoughts, and so he [00:06:00] self-admitted into a psychiatric, inpatient place to try to help him with his suicidal thoughts.
What he experienced there was. More impersonal, cold clinical. They're not even listening to him. and you know, when they're, they're counseling him. And so he finds a rejuvenated joy in life when he begins to try to just be helpful to some of his fellow patients in there. And he is able to help them.
He's able to help them by laughing, by being funny, by being goofy and silly. and so it really kind of rejuvenated his soul and he thought, man, what if. What if we brought silliness and goofiness and joy into medicine and we're more personal? And so he decides to go to medical school, goes to medical school.
all sorts of hygienes happen in middle sch me medical school that are hilarious, uh, in the movie. I don't know how many others are true. and then he graduates from medical school and basically starts running a free hospital with like, 12 other physicians living in a house for like [00:07:00] 12 years and, they're all living in this six bedroom house and like patients are coming in and out 24 hours a day and they're hanging out.
And the point was, that I got, that made me think about an episode for today is how easy it is when we're doing ministry to miss the people that we are serving. And we'll just get focused on programs and processes. And Patch Adams in the movie says, you treat a disease and it's win and lose. You treat a person and I guarantee you, you will win no matter the outcome.
and his point was that it wasn't just about delaying death, but about quality of life and. they just got me thinking, you know, I, I've, I know I've experienced seasons of ministry where I was so wrapped up in, designing programs, running programs, processes and policies and, and all those other things that, it felt like people were in the way.
And I'm sure you've heard the old joke, Bob, boy ministry would be a whole lot easier if it wasn't for all [00:08:00] the people,
right. And it's an old joke that people laugh at, but it's really a horrible joke. It's a horrible way to think about it. And so, I, I wanna focus on learning a little bit from, let me emphasize, learn a little bit.
Patch Adams is not a guy you need to go learn a lot of things from, but we can learn a little bit from this idea of, Hey, let's not miss the people in the midst of all the programs and the processes and policies.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I think so. I, I think one of the places where laughter may occur the least is in a dying church.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: And particularly with those who are tasked with, thinking about the future of the church and the affairs of the church, that there's a, there's a lot of somberness and seriousness there. unless they're just in complete denial, I've run into that before too.
but I think, uh, bringing some joy into a, a difficult situation is important. And so let's, let's jump in. Let's do it.
JimBo Stewart: Well, you know, if you think about it, Bob loving people is pretty central to this whole Christianity thing. right. Like,[00:09:00] I mean, When Jesus was asked, Hey, what is the greatest of all the commandments? And what is the answer, right? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. And then the second is like it love your neighbor as yourself.
And then John 13 was he tell us. But that, we'll, we will be, people will know that we are his followers by the way that we love each other. And so, we can move on from Patch Adams a little bit and just realize the scriptures actually point us pretty poignantly to this idea that loving people is a pretty big deal when it comes to this whole following Jesus thing.
Bob Bickford: Absolutely. I think we, and you've talked about this before where we, in one of your talks where we tolerate people. and we forebear with one another. And there, there's something that precedes, I mean, love, love, love does a number of things, like love bears all things, hopes, all things, believe, all believes all things, those sorts of things that, that it says in first Corinthians 13.
But, um, I think love, lo love like encouragement for just people in [00:10:00] general may be in short supply these days. And, particularly in the, in the Christian community, in the church and those who've have. Claim to have faith in Christ and follow Christ love is to be one of our most significant characteristics
in the way
JimBo Stewart: Hmm.
Bob Bickford: to one another.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think part of, you know, to, to pull one more lesson from Patch Adam. Not even, I mean it's partially, this is shown in the movie, but, you know, I'm a nerd and I, I don't just glance at things. I love to research. And so I looked into the real patch items and what's he doing today? I watched a couple videos of, uh, some talks Ted Talk type things he's done.
And, one he has in the movie, he has this dream of building a hospital, that like. Is this goofy, crazy looking hospital. I, I still don't think they've built it. Uh, I think they've broken ground, but like, it's been a whole deal. But he said as they see patients, this was so crazy to me. his initial interview with a new patient in this free hospital thing that they have is three to four hours long.
and like they go to the house, they visit people, they get to know people, everything. and so,[00:11:00]I think one, we've gotta be willing to stop long enough to listen. and that's hard to do. I know for me, when I'm really task-oriented mode, it's hard for me to be good at listening. Henry Nowan says, in the midst of a turbulent, often chaotic world, ministers are called to be contemplatives, to be people who listen to the voice of God and to the voices of those who suffer. And this, you know, this I think goes to the idea of like, eliminate all hurry and manage your time well so that you can do deep work. And there's something about when we can move away from just accomplishing tasks and getting to people, that's gonna require a lot of good sitting and patiently listening.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I think this makes the case for the established church and also the church that needs to be revitalized, right? this is, something that you can do, in those kinds of settings. I, as you're reading that, A quote from now on. I'm thinking of all of the descriptions of the church planters that I know, and the profiles I know, and this is, this doesn't show up on, their [00:12:00] list, right.
Typically. And that's not, I'm not trying to, to cast stones at them in any, any kind of form or fashion, but man, they're trying to start something from nothing. They're an entrepreneur. They're trying to, you know, shout at the dirt and raise up a church. So I think that it's a totally different, Context in, in a lot of ways.
But what happens often is when they get a group of people together, you know what, Jimbo, this is exactly what they want. They wanna be listened to, they wanna be heard. And so I think the tension is, and all the things that you have to do, you gotta set aside time to make people the Lord, you're number one.
and people, you're number two. And then all the systems and all the structures and, and all the activities need to serve those two top priorities.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. You know, my dad did something really well as I was growing up. He was always really good at listening to me. I don't even know if he was really paying attention to what I was saying. A lot of the times, I, you know, I, I feel like I, I, I, I reap a little bit of how much I talked to my dad with, with my daughter Magnolia.
She can talk, she talks in her sleep, cuz she never stops talking and, [00:13:00] I, you know, I loved playing golf with my dad, but I really think my favorite thing was the ride to the golf course and the ride home and talking to my dad, and even when there were conflicts and things that I disagreed with him or I disagreed with my mom and there was some issue, my dad would always listen to me.
And he always made me feel respected. Now, I cannot remember a single time Bob, when I ever changed my dad's mind on anything. as much as he listened to me. I don't think I ever convinced him of my side on anything, but I still left feeling loved and respected. And I think even in conflict resolution, this idea of listening well, In order to understand is such a key skill, like, man, if we could just sit and listen and really try to hear people, and where they're coming from, because there are, listen, there are conflicts, there are issues and there are things to be dealt with and there are sin to be confronted and there are traditions to be challenged.
And if we're not careful, then it, it can feel like the people have become the enemy. Of what we've been called to do, [00:14:00] and that's where Ephesians six is such a great reminder that it's not flesh and blood that we fight against, right? It's, and, so these people aren't people we're fighting against and part of.
Focusing on them is we have to listen to them. and I think, Bob, there's a lot of ways we could talk about listening. Like, are your sermons even, like, are your sermons effective? Are your, are, people understanding what you're saying? Are, are they helping them? Well, you don't know that until you ask some questions and you listen and you create ways to get feedback.
R. The programs you're doing, leading people into deeper maturity and, and onto mission, and, and the things that aren't as easy to measure, right? Which we talk about a lot on this podcast. The importance of things that aren't easy to measure. Well, the, you can't measure 'em, but you can ask questions and you can listen.
And then the last thing I thought about it was with this listen, was one of my favorite things I've ever learned on our podcast. Was sitting with Johnny Rumba and him, him talking about just the power of when he doesn't interim, and he'll sit [00:15:00] down with these groups of two to three people at a time and he'll ask him just a few questions, right?
One, tell me your Jesus story. How did you come to know the Lord? two, tell me your church story. How did you come to be a part of this particular church? And then his, his last question, did anybody else know any of that about these
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm.
JimBo Stewart: Right? I mean, I think about that often, just how powerful of an exercise that has to be.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. and people wanna be able to share the, I think we, we live in a culture, and particularly I think the Baptist culture has been, we have times for conversation, but meaningful in depth conversation about your story with God and your story with a, a group of people, we don't really. Get to, to do that often.
And what we find out, a lot of times is when, I was around, a family friend and they, their daughter went to camp recently and one thing she said is, it was so great to actually get to know people and not have a phone in your hand. Right. There's a novel idea right there. But I would say even for our, our older folks, our older generations, it's so good to get to know people [00:16:00] and hear stories outside of the.
Limited time for discussion before the Sunday school lesson or before the church service starts, and all those sorts of things we're, we're oftentimes in a circle listening to one person or we're sitting in rows listening to one person, and we don't make time necessarily to listen to one another deep deeply about.
Important things and asking good questions. So I, I think, I love this idea of, bringing that back into the church and into the community, particularly as a practice, as a pastor, like really hearing some somebody and then asking the follow up question. I, recently connected with a guy, and he always says this when you're talking to him, he says, Hey, tell me more.
Like, tell me more. And it was like, oh, okay. And then you find yourself like really sharing, more about that. And he's learning and you're just, he's discovering and he's getting to know you and he's also understanding who you are, that sort of thing. So I, I think listening is a, uh, an important practice for all of us as brothers and sisters in Christ, but particularly as pastors.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I mean, nothing makes you feel more unloved [00:17:00] than basically being ignored or not heard.
I mean, I dunno. I'm sure Bob even. Hundred people that like, they talk so much and it, and that even when they were, when when you stop talking for a second, they jump in and you can tell they're not even responding to what you were saying, like you were just in their way of their monologue.
And they just keep go. Like, and man, that I, I always notice that when that happens to me. And it, it makes me feel disrespected and unloved and like, and at the very least I'm like, This is probably not somebody I'm gonna be like really good friends with. Like, if every time we talk, you're not actually even listening to me.
But then I always try to flip that and think, am I doing that? Am I not listening? How am I, well, am I doing that? And so that leads to one of the things that Patch Adams really wanted. this comes out in the movie, but it it, comes out in some of his other stuff that I saw later. he really desires this idea of community.
I, I am going to assume [00:18:00] Patch Adams is not a believer. just based on some things I've heard him say. but there's something, he has this like thing in his heart where God puts this in all of us, this need for community and, and, and belonging and. I don't know that patch ever really found exactly what he's looking to him.
He's still alive from what I know. And, you know, Dietrich Bonhoeffer said, Christian community is like the Christian sanctification. It's a gift of God. We cannot claim, we, we can't just proclaim community. We can't just say, oh, we're like, you know, a lot of churches will say welcome home, or We are a family here or, but in reality, we don't listen to you and you just need to listen to our lecture, and we don't actually build real community.
And part of that is Bob community's inefficient.
community is a slow burn, compared to a really good program, a really good thing that can blow up and build real fast. Community is slow and it's bumpy and it's [00:19:00] circuitous and it's completely inefficient, but. I honestly think this ought to be one of our greatest goals in church renewal is building deep community joy with each other, loving each other, laughing together, and just enjoying being in each other's presence.
and I'm not trying to simplify or you know, or chicken soup for the soul, this thing, but there, there is something to like actually enjoying being around the people that are part of your biblical community that is so important. If you look at, you know, acts 2 42, and then later in 44th and 47, they, they devoted themselves to the apostles teaching and the fellowship to the breaking of bread into prayer.
And then it says, all the believers were together and had everything in common, and the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. This is, it's, there is, there is this need for us to not just gather together on a weekly basis and listen to, you know, one group sing songs and one guy talk.
but to actually really have community [00:20:00] together.
Bob Bickford: A hundred percent. and c communities, not necessarily assured just because you're doing those things that, that are,
tilling the ground to create it, right? But you, but you're going, you're talking about something that is, the, inborn need of every single human being that's ever walked the, the face of this earth.
And, and it goes back to Genesis, where the creation, is, is done in community, father, son, and Holy Spirit. men and women are created in the image of God, right? And, and so, and that Godhead is that trinity, that holy trinity that lives in community. And so, what I would say is you gotta fight for community.
And you gotta, you gotta realize that it's not a given. And it's, it's one of those kind of two-edged swords, Jimbo, that you work really hard to achieve it. And then once you get it, you gotta work really hard to protect it. And value it, and you've gotta be, and part of being in community is you learn that in every single one of us, we bring something into a relationship that blesses, but it also works against the relationship at the same time.
[00:21:00] Right. So there's, there's part of me that you are gonna love and there's part of me that's gonna frustrate you and true, true community is when love rises above the part that frustrates another person, right? I love you enough to, I'm gonna stick with you and I'm gonna be with you, and I'm gonna endure with you because I love you.
And, and that's what community's all about. And it calls, Calls forth the best in people, and it also calls out the parts that are not the best and seeks to bring those into, a place where the Lord can work on that. And the Lord works on you in community, right? He, he makes you more of who he wants you to be.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, that's part of it. I mean, like, so Hebrew says that we stir one another up into good works and that idea of like stirring is, you know, almost like rubbing up against each other. And, and so part of real community, part of really loving each other and part of focusing on people. Rather than programs and processes, or at least more than those, is the idea of it's okay to not be okay, but it's not okay to stay there.
And loving people means leaning into their sanctification and leaning into your sanctification and pursuing maturity. And, and like you [00:22:00] said, loving it is in community, is also calling out where things need to be called out and helping people become who God has really called to be. Guys. This is, this is so much fun doing this podcast for you guys.
With you guys. We want to hear from you. One of the things we wanna do is we wanna listen. and so how has this been helpful? How could it be more helpful? What are other things that you want us to address? You can always reach us Replant bootcamp@gmail.com. We would especially love to hear from you this week, as quickly as you can.
We would love to, to bring it into episode 200 and, and have you celebrate with us. and we want to keep serving you guys and serving with you guys. And so, let us listen from you, let us learn from you, and let us know how we can keep serving you well.
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp. Bob, I hope you're ready for the next episode. We are back at it again and loving life, living in the beach of the bootcamp over the summer. It's getting to see a lot of great things happen and enjoy the ministry that we get to do together. I, I wanna go back to our time in New Orleans for just a moment and just say, man, what a joy it was.
to meet so many of you guys. If I'm, if I'm doing my math right, Bob, this is like episode 1 97 8 1 1 90. This is 1 99 right here.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. It's a big episode, Jimbo, because the next one's 200 we've, I think we're gonna have, are we gonna rent out a hall and have dancers and like I think we're bringing in some like dragos, char grilled oysters and all of that kind of stuff. And
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Special invite only, uh, you should have already listeners, you should have already received the invite by the time this podcast goes live. And so if you got an invite, you know you're part of the upper echelon, of boot campers.
Bob Bickford: So we're also fundraising for that event, if you can.
JimBo Stewart: [00:01:00] Yeah. If, if you wanna secure, your invite to this non-existent event, then you can make your donations to us. And maybe we'll make an event if, if you'll fund it.
Bob Bickford: man, 200. That's got to be a milestone because, didn't you say the average podcast quits after? Is it like seven episodes, Jimbo, or
JimBo Stewart: think so when we started this, I mean we started this Bob some years ago and that was
Bob Bickford: years
JimBo Stewart: years ago. I mean, Bob, it was years ago. This was, I mean, Bob, it's, it's been three years since Covid started and we started before Covid.
Bob Bickford: Oh my goodness.
JimBo Stewart: I mean, so it is been a few years.
Bob Bickford: It, it has, and I think it's been a wonderful three years. Jimbo, they've flown by like they were five minutes.
JimBo Stewart: so, this is a tweet from someone named Jack Butcher that says 90% of podcasts don't get past episode three. That's 1.8 million who quit. Of the 200,000 left, 90% will quit after 20 [00:02:00] episodes.
Bob Bickford: Wow.
JimBo Stewart: I don't know who Jack Butcher is or if his Twitter is reliable source of information, but there's what the tweeters say.
Bob Bickford: Well, there you go. And I think you looked up our ranking. I. in a podcast land in the category of religion, and we are at number 385.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah. you know, I feel like there's probably a lot of podcasts in that religion, spirituality section.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I would think so.
JimBo Stewart: so, you know, we're top 500. I'm good with that.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. There you go.
JimBo Stewart: But honestly, it was so good to meet so many of you at the Southern Baptist Convention in New Orleans, and, so many of you came and shared even some of your stories and what God's doing in your ministries.
And just know we love hearing from you guys. And so thank you to all of you that did find your way to us and talk to us and, share your stories and encourage us with how the podcast has helped you and, and even some of our food recommendations. And, and so we're [00:03:00] grateful for you guys. Obviously, without you, we wouldn't do this.
I mean, Bob and I talk a lot. We just wouldn't record it. if, if nobody was gonna listen.
Bob Bickford: That's probably good, Jimbo. We would, have to edit out a lot of things and, if we recorded every conversation, not that we're inver inappropriate, but you know, there's some behind the scenes secret sauce to this world of replanting and revitalization that we just can't let out everywhere.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. Hey, Bob, for episode 1 99. I think, somewhat of a repeated topic, but we're gonna come at it from a little bit different angle. today let's talk about, Church hurt. Like how do you overcome church hurt? Because we've talked about this and when we've talked about pastoral grit or we've talked about a lot of other things, but man, it's, I think as we are coming three years post the arrival of covid and things kind of have a new norm and we're not in the, the battle of do you wear a mask or not?
anymore and hopefully never again, but. In that [00:04:00] normal, we kind of get back to the things that, that really used to be the hardest parts about ministry and, and sometimes that's how people hurt you, as hurt you and they hurt your family. And there's a lot of ways that that happens. you know, it's, overly critical remarks.
It's ghosting you, just disappearing on you. It is even, Action to try to get you fired or get you ousted. It's gossip. It's all sorts of things that can be really hurtful for you, for your wife, for your kids. And so it's something you gotta really think through. And you gotta, you gotta, you need to have a plan for what you're gonna do when it happens, because if it's not happening to you right now, it, it's coming, it's gonna happen.
Bob Bickford: Absolutely. I think of a conversation I had while we were in New Orleans, of a pastor that I, I really understood. some months ago he was dealing with some of this and it was, fresh because it was in process. It was in the beginning stages of, of challenge, and now he's several months past this.
And so we were just having a conversation and one of the things I said [00:05:00] to him, Jimbo, was I said, this is gonna take some time and it's going to require some intentionality in order to deal with the pain and the hurt that you've experienced at the place you just left. Right? and I think the intensity of it fades over time.
But Jimbo, I don't think it, if you don't. Lean into it and you don't do some proactive kinds of things as you're moving into a new ministry season or taking a pause. This hurt will be unresolved. So one, we've heard the phrase, time heals all wins. Well, I think that that's true. If you have intentionality
right? but I think you've gotta put some intentionality. So I, I would just say one thing I would add to that and would love to hear what you would say is I think you need to spend some time reflecting on the situation that happened and looking back, not to dredge up the emotions, Jimbo necessarily, but I think looking back to say what happened,
JimBo Stewart: Mm-hmm.
Bob Bickford: as best as I can [00:06:00] understand and how did I respond?
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, and I think part of that, Bob, you gotta get some outside perspective. and there are varying levels, so depending on how much this is impacting you of how much outside perspective and the kind of outside perspective you need to get. One is if you can get a pastor that has been in this longer than you have, That's a really great place to go and just say, Hey, can I just be honest with you about what's going on, how I'm feeling about it, how it's making me feel and think, and you just, I mean, where, challenge me, where I'm wrong.
Challenge me where I'm not thinking, right? And, and give them permission to do that. Be ready to do that kind of mentally and, and know that they're gonna challenge. And here's the deal. If they've been passionate for a long time, they're probably not gonna like beat you up. They're gonna, they're gonna hear you.
They're gonna have compassion. and their hope. When I talk to pastors going through stuff like this, my posture is always one. I, I hope to have a lot of empathy and a lot of compassion, and hear them, understand them, validate their emotions, and then try to just [00:07:00] barely lean forward and just kind of go, okay, what does it look like to not just sit here in this frustration and hurt and confusion?
But how do we just barely right now? I know it's hurtful. Everything's painful. How do we just barely lean forward? What's, what's a way to lean forward in this and, and think through this and different perspectives? There's going to be a temptation and this, this, I, this may be, I think one of the most important things I'll say on this episode, if church hurt, hurt, especially if it has something to do with.
Your people's evaluation of your effectiveness as a leader, as a pastor, there's going to be a real temptation to isolate
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm.
JimBo Stewart: cuz it's scary and it feels like what if they're right and what if I do get perspective on this? And that perspective helps me see that I am less. Of a leader than I thought I was, or I'm less of a pastor than I thought I was.
And, and there's almost this subconscious battle to go, I don't really wanna open that Pandora's box. and so I'm just gonna put my head down and [00:08:00] go forward and, and you're kind of almost just hoping it's gonna go away. And it's not gonna go away. and you need, you need brothers that, and that are gonna help you.
They're gonna love you and, and help you get the outside perspective. So I, I would say stage one, you know, you get another pastor, another friend that's done ministry that knows what it feels like to be in the spot that you're in. But if it's like legitimately affecting you in, in a way that where you cannot.
Think clearly you can't, like you're, you almost have brain fog out of it that's impacting you so heavy. then you need to seek professional help and don't be ashamed of that. That is not failure. Like you, you need somebody that can help you get some clinical perspective on what this stress is doing to you mentally.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. I love that how you put that. I think it's in, it's hard for us to remember Jimbo, that, we're not perfect and we're going to fail. Right. And here's a statement that I, I think is important. you [00:09:00] are not as great as you think you are, and you're also not as bad as you think you are.
JimBo Stewart: Hmm.
Bob Bickford: And the reality is that one or two failures does not make you an overall failure, or one or two failings does not make you an overall failure, right?
So it's important for us to understand there's gonna be somebody who's better than we are. At everything. There's gonna be a lot of people who are worse than we are at something. And so the reality is, and, and I think this is true for a lot of us, type a, high D, high I probably firstborn types where we feel like we've, we've had a track record of success that's, that's followed us in every position that we've ever inhabited.
Jimbo, there's gonna be a situation where you encounter. An obstacle, a barrier, a bully, a gatekeeper, a church, something where you, you are not gonna be able to overcome it just by your sheer talent or will. And [00:10:00] many times, that's the Lord's own doing to break you and make you more humble and dependent upon him.
but we all know that situations like that hurt. Now, I don't want to exclude the fact that Jimbo, there are some people in churches who are sinful. Who are, divisive, who are, antagonistic, they're, and Jimbo. There's some people in churches that are just meanest snakes,
right? And they're going to, they're gonna throw everything they at you.
And then even worse, you're gonna have people that you felt like were on your side or on your team, people that loved you, that all of a sudden betray you. And that's perhaps the most difficult kind of hurt to deal with is the, not just the bully or the adversary, right? Cuz you kind of expect that to some degree.
But the person who's within your own circle of friends, the one who betrays you. Right. The one who's close, like a brother, that all of a sudden is now not any longer, that perhaps is the one that I think bewilders most pastors, to the degree that that feels [00:11:00] almost like a fatal wound, that it's hard for them to overcome.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. The closer the person to you that you feel the hurt from. The, the, it is much more painful, and especially when it, you can't make sense of it. There's almost like. I don't know. You've had, sometimes you've had disagreements with people I think that you know, and you love, but you, you get where they're coming from.
You understand, like you, it's agree to disagree type thing, but I get, I understand why you feel the way you do and, I think you're wrong, and I think I'm right, but. And it's hard and that's painful. But the one that's like really painful is it feels like, man, it feels like this came outta nowhere. I really thought we were on the same page and I thought that we were running this race together and that, you know, we were arm and arm linked up charging the battlefield serving together and that we were both excited about where God was taking this church and you agreed with what I was trying to do here.
I thought. Then either one, now you have major criticisms or two,[00:12:00] you just disappear and, with no explanation. And those, it can be sometimes, not always, that's always more, far more painful than the person that's just mean-spirited and critical all the time. and you just, you grow to expect that from them and you know that's what you're gonna get from them on a regular basis.
I think I've told this story on here before. I had a guy that. Everything he said to me was snarky and critical. and I, I, one day on a Sunday morning, I'm walking down the aisle and I'm talking to people right before the service starts and he just, you know, throws some dart at me of some, you know, critical statement.
And I just, without my filter working, just looked at him and his name wasn't Bob. We're just gonna pretend it was, and I just said, Bob, one day I'm gonna talk to you the way you talk to me. He just looked like super shocked, like, what in the world? And I just looked at him. I said, just think about it. And I walked off, not by best moment, but I'm not gonna lie.
It felt pretty good at the moment to do that.[00:13:00] that's, but that's, that guy was a lot less painful than the people that I thought we were, like, we were tight and we were in this together.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, man, I think that's a great moment. That's like in middle school. That's like a punch to the sternum, bro. That was awesome. Right? The guy who's picking on you and picking on you and picking on you, and then all of a sudden you're like, you drop your book bag and you just punch him square in the sternum and it knocks him back and it didn't hurt him so much as it surprised them.
Right?
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Yeah.
Bob Bickford: I think there's a, a well-placed, use of a verbal punch to the sternum occasionally. I mean, you see it in Jesus, but, you know, but it, I mean, it's just like somebody to do that right before you preach. Right? It's just like, come on, people. Like really?
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: but I, I think, you know, one of the things that is so important for us, Jimbo, is that, church hurt makes us become wiser, right?
And maybe [00:14:00] more shrewd. And maybe less sensitive, right? Because I think we see a lot of re planters get into the replanting work. They've sacrificed salary, position preference. they're, they're, you know, hustling to try to make it economically, all these sorts of things. And then they're trying to lead a people who seem to be ungrateful and critical.
some who become adversarial and they get into this situation where they just feel frustrated, bewildered, angry, discouraged. What? Whatever. Right. So I think all of this hurt that we experience makes us become wiser. And so we walk into a situation maybe with a new person, with a little bit of caution and a little bit of wisdom,
right? A little bit of understanding that. We need to approach every conversation with a, with a measure of wisdom, with a, a measure of appropriate. Disclosure, right? All those sorts of things. It takes me [00:15:00] back to, uh, a passage in John two, 24 where, we, we see this in Jesus life, right as he was doing ministries like the wedding, a cana does the miracle.
Everybody's like, did you say what he did? He like made water outta wine. Like, I mean, I mean, wine outta water means it's just amazing kinds of things, right? And so all of this notoriety becomes, and it all in the midst of that, it says this, but Jesus did his part not to entrust himself to them because he knew all people
JimBo Stewart: Hmm.
Bob Bickford: and he needed no one to bear witness about man, for, he himself knew what was in man.
Right? So there's this, this idea that Jesus doesn't need people to go, man, you are awesome, right? You are. And so he wasn't looking for his affirmation. Or his credibility from man because he knows what's inside of of people. Right? And so, so for us as pastors, like our affirmation and our confirmation comes from the Lord.
And oftentimes what comes from man is [00:16:00] condemnation. Particularly, cranky church members are Unregenerate members. And as we seek to be a change agent inside of a church, we can expect to be the focus and the target of conflict. So, Going in knowing that, that it's gonna be hard, that people are gonna disappoint, people are gonna be adversarial.
Some people are gonna be great and encouraging, and loving and accepting, but there's gonna be a small handful that probably are gonna come against this. And they would come against anybody, right? Any, any pastor who was in that situation that was leading them towards biblical fidelity and faithfulness.
Mission reality. all those sorts of things, they're just gonna come against that cuz they, they don't really, they want change, but they don't really want change. Right. So, be wiser for it. Right. Just know that, that church hurt, like redeemed the pain. I, I went to a church planter assessment back in the early nineties in Denver, Colorado.
I, I was thinking, you know, I wanna plan a church. where do I want to go? Well, Colorado seems like a great place. I've taken kids out there, to camp and I [00:17:00] loved Colorado. I just loved the vibe out there. Casa Bonita was out there and incidentally, Casa Bonita, Jimbo, do you know about Casa Bonita? it, it's this giant Mexican restaurant that serves Taco Bell food.
But it's inside this giant room. They have a cliff diver and caves and soap PIs. And here's the best part, Jimbo. There's a flag on your table that when you raise it up, the person comes by and says, what do you want? And you just tell 'em and they bring you more, right? So. Casa Bonita, I'll put a link on it.
I Mark Halleck and I are super excited about it. Maybe when you're out there, in July, you can, you can go to Casa Bonita and if you do take a picture of, of you, in Casa, I'd love to see that. But anyway, I go to this church planner assessment and the guy, talks about church hurt and pain.
And he says this, I've learned to let the Lord redeem the head wounds that I received.
JimBo Stewart: Mm.
Bob Bickford: And so he talked about redeeming the pain and Jimbo, man, that stuck with me. That's something that has been part of my life just [00:18:00] thinking about how can God redeem this pain? Right? What people mean for evil. God intends for good, what we think is an, a burden that's gonna kill us, and it's gonna.
Gonna just take us out. God does that. So we depend on him. And so the conflict that we experience and the challenge that we experience, the hurt that we receive at the hands of people who we seek to pastor and lead, can make us more like Jesus and make us wiser. And as my counselor once said, if people betray Jesus, how do you think they won't betray you?
JimBo Stewart: Right. Yeah. I think for me, in my experiences of the most hurtful moments, part of what I know God was doing in my heart, and I suspect God is often doing in the hearts of. Other ministry leaders when they go through difficult seasons is for me, he was chiseling out a fear of man. He was chiseling out a, addiction to approval, a, a need for man's approval to be liked, to be [00:19:00]approved of, to be, thought of as successful and really good at what I do.
And, I know a lot of guys have deep. Father wounds, right? I mean, that's, there's a lot of documentation to that. And for the longest time, I did not think I had deep father wounds because I was very blessed. I have a great dad. I mean, my dad is a really good guy. I love being around my dad. I've always loved being around my dad.
I've never felt anything but respected and loved and cherished by my dad. But what I did figure out is because I love my dad so much, my dad is one of the hardest working men I've ever seen in my life. So, And so it, it hardwired this thing in me of like, he, I mean, and he, he said, always be the hardest working person in the room.
Like that's what it means to be a man. That's what it means to, and from his perspective coming from, you know, a small little sharecropper family in, in Arkansas, [00:20:00] in dirt floor shack, and he's the only one to graduate high school and he is 21 when he graduated and, you know, had a pretty successful career in the, in the pulp mill paper mill industry.
So, He had to work really, really, really hard to do all of that. and so I admired that so much. It kind of ingrained that mentality into me, into ministry of if I'm gonna be a good pastor, that means I'm gonna be the hardest working person in the room always. And I interpreted that, that that's where my value and where my worth comes from is in my ability to work hard. The Lord had to take me through those seasons to help me begin to have a different perspective and see that no, my, my worth and value really is just in the fact that Jesus loves me and that's it. That he has adopted me, that he has redeemed me, that I am his child, that I am pointing others to him. And that's it, regardless of how many people show up or how successful I am, or whether people like me or don't like me.
and[00:21:00] it's still something at times I, I still have to wrestle with. But I never gained real perspective on that until I went through church hurt, until I went through those things. And so boot camper, I, I don't tell you what. I sat down with a, with a pastor recently and I just said, listen, don't run from the pain. Don't try to sue it. Don't don figure out not only how to, not how to, not only how to redeem the pain from our past, but when you're in the midst of church hurt. Ask the Lord What is it that you're doing and how is it that you're using this to grow me? And how can I just submit myself to that and know that it's gonna hurt?
It's gonna hurt, and ministry is often gonna hurt. And if you, the problem is from what I have seen in my own life and lives of others, Bob, when you try to soothe it and you try to avoid the pain and just get around it, then most oftentimes you're gonna go to something that's unhealthy. Now, might it be something that's benignly unhealthy, like spending too much time on social media?
Which is not a good idea or binging Netflix. But it can also [00:22:00] go to things like pornography, to alcohol. It can go to drugs. It can, I mean, I've seen it. I've, I know pastors, I know ministry leaders that began to soothe their pain with little things like food and, and Netflix and whatever. And then next thing you know, they're struggling with alcoholism or they're struggling with pornography addiction, or I.
Or they have an affair, they do something really stupid.
That stuff comes from, I think, instead of going to the Lord in our pain, trying to run from it and trying to soothe it.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, man. With that, we just wanna say, hey, if you're out there and you are a renewal pastor and you are in a bad place, And you're not quite sure what to do, we'd love to hear from you and try to help you connect with resources in your area to get you to a place where you can be healed and whole and serve for the glory of God and the good of the church and the community.
So, if you're a brother that's struggling, and don't hesitate to reach out either to us or [00:23:00] that 800, number that we're gonna put on, the bottom of this. show notes of this podcast to help you connect with somebody who can just listen. And you might need a safe place just to say, Hey, and here's what I'm dealing with.
Here's what I'm thinking, here's what I'm doing. I need some help.
JimBo Stewart: Hey, in a way you can encourage us one, I did our, I did my math wrong. This will be episode 1 98, not 1 99. So, listener, if, the bootcamp's been helpful to you, we would really love to hear that. And we would love to highlight some of those stories in episode 200. So, Contact us on social media. hit us up through the website.
Let us know what the, what the bootcamp has meant to you over the last few years, and would love to highlight your story on episode 200.
We’re back at it again Bootcampers. Bob is battling Chipmunks and Jimbo is trying to be sympathetic and fortunately, the CEO of our great sponsor, One Eighty Digital, Wesley Lewis dropped by to help us understand how AI (Artificial Intelligence) impacts ministry and life. Things to keep in mind regarding AI It is being used […]
The boys are back from the Big Easy and SBC23 and take some time to stop down and talk about food, connections, fun and Resolution One from this year's convention: On the Importance of Revitalizing and Replanting. Listen in on the conversation between the guys and Luke Holmes, Pastor of FBC Tishomingo, and author of resolution one from this year's annual gathering in New Orleans.
SBC Resolution One
Read more of Luke's writings here JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are. Back at the bootcamp. Back at it again, Bob. I hope you're ready for the next episode. Have you recovered from the amount of char grilled oysters you consumed in the city of New Orleans? I think you had char grilled oysters like four times
Bob Bickford: I think five,
JimBo Stewart: five.
Bob Bickford: counting the Fred Luter, dedication at the, new Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, which was a blast, by the
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, that was incredible.
Bob Bickford: Got a brass band playing when the saints go marching in. And Fred and his wife and everybody kind of marches in the student center and they have the unveiling of his picture.
And I was in the student center, not because I thought Fred was gonna be there, but because I was sweating buckets, because New Orleans is a humidity fest. And, Jimbo, I think I was glistening on a regular basis about 98% of the time.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think I was probably like 20 years old before I realized that's not what everyone does at all times. like I just thought everyone glistened during the majority of the year, so,[00:01:00]
Bob Bickford: Well, it was fun. You know, I think we had some good experiences in New Orleans. Got to see a lot of friends, got to see some bootcamp listeners and connect with folks, and we did eat, or at least I certainly did eat a fair amount of char grilled oysters, so it was a good time.
JimBo Stewart: where were your favorite oysters at? Which ones were your favorite ones? Um,
Bob Bickford: Yeah. You know, I, I think I'll rank them. I would say, new Orleans, Orleans, food and Spirits is number one. And it took us about an hour to get in there. we saw it was a Baptist who's who that was in the waiting,
area too, Dr. Jeff or from, gateway Seminary. And I didn't go up in greed.
You know, I, I don't know that I've met him personally before. I think I shook his hand once. He doesn't know who I am. Right. So, but you know, George Ross was there with the Send New Orleans team. It was great to see them. There was a contingent from the Kentucky Baptists that were there, so it was kind of good.
And then we were there. So, I mean, we didn't make the, the annual book of reports this year. Jimbo disappointed, but, we were there nonetheless. So I would go seafood, new spirits. I would go then Dragos and then [00:02:00] Moots, probably would be my ranking.
JimBo Stewart: My favorite, were actually the ones at Fred Looter's, celebration.
They came right off the grill right there. so you had to wait a few minutes to get 'em. At least the ones I got came right off the grill. So they were good, man. You know, we didn't make the book of reports, but in a way We kind of made the resolutions,
Bob Bickford: Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: I mean, not the replant bootcamp specifically, which I have my qualms for why it wasn't mentioned, and we'll get to that. but the idea of replanting and revitalization was resolution number one. And so Bob, uh, I want to say, whereas the Southern Baptist Convention.
Was an enjoyable time for the most part, and whereas there were moments that were not super enjoyable and whereas we now move on from there back into our daily ministry lives, I am resolved that the most important thing that came out of Southern Baptist Convention was resolution number one.
Bob Bickford: Be it resolved, Jimbo, [00:03:00] be it resolved.
JimBo Stewart: you could hold your ballots in the air and let us know. if you agree and vote on resolution one being the most important thing to happen at Southern Baptist Convention, the yays have it. You can put those down and, you can raise your ballots to say otherwise. And no one, no one said that because everyone agrees with us.
Bob Bickford: Indeed, indeed.
JimBo Stewart: Hey, we have the author of Resolution one, with us good friend, Luke Holmes. Luke, introduce yourself to the bootcamp. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Luke Holmes: Hey, thanks for having me on, guys. my name's Luke Holmes. I'm pastor at First Baptist Tingo. Oklahoma, I've been here, Easter was 12 years, and, Tish Mingo is a small town. About 3000 people tried between Ravi and Mill Creek, if that helps you any. it's in the southern part of Oklahoma we really enjoy it.
So, I have a wife and three daughters and, my oldest was real excited. This was her first, uh, Southern Baptist Convention. She loved yelling. Second when it was time for it, and, uh, She wants to be a lawyer and she said I could be a [00:04:00] convention lawyer. I was like, no, don't do that. That's, that's a lot of headache.
JimBo Stewart: Absolutely. hey, this isn't the only resolution that you, you've written. We did a, an episode last year, on a resolution that you wrote. I.
Luke Holmes: Yeah, last year I wrote about rural churches and, you know, I'm, I'm a bit of a nerd, a history nerd, especially in going through resolutions. I noticed that, you know, we've never even until last year had a resolution that had the word rural, even in it.
JimBo Stewart: Wow.
Luke Holmes: So, you know, that's the majority of the churches in the sbc and I think it's just important.
I had lots of guys come up afterwards and say how important that was and that it made them feel valued and, uh, important and partnered to the sbc. So I was glad to be able to do that.
Bob Bickford: Man. I love that, Luke, and, you came on the radar last year certainly with that resolution, and I know we were visiting. prior to official business opening, at this year's sbc and, you mentioned, that you had written, this resolution and, few [00:05:00] hours later it was right, the first one right out of the gate, and I was super excited.
Now, I was not excited about all of the points of order and the parliamentary inquiries that took us, took us down from the opportunity of being able to discuss. Resolution number one on revitalization and replanting. So I think we missed an opportunity maybe to hear some more, from the messengers about, why they supported it.
But kind of give us the, the backstory when you were sitting, uh, around and successfully had, proffered a resolution the previous, in the previous SBC life, and then this one came along, this was in your mind and your heart. Kind Give us the backstory about what moved you to write this one.
Luke Holmes: Yeah. you know, I had offered some resolutions before that have been turned down for one reason or another, and, I tried to write about things that are important to me. I had somebody approach me about, I. Writing one about something else. And I thought about it and told him, you know, I just don't, I don't really care about that.
That's not my, it's [00:06:00] important and all that and I'm glad you care. But that's not my thing. And I'm not gonna say what it was cuz it might be your thing. But, You know, that's just not my thing. It's not, you know, I believe in writing about things that are important to you and, you know, I think there's value in, in doing things that nobody else is doing.
I knew this year there'd be lots of resolutions on. Women or ordination or those things. And so I kind of, my niche has always kind of been, looking to see what nobody else is doing and kind of doing that. And revitalization is important to me. I have, my master's had a Fo Lucas in that I'm getting a doctorate in that from Southwestern you and my professors, but you have already turned in my grade, so I don't think I get any boost for this. I didn't time that out well, but, the, uh, not that I needed a boost, of course, but it's, you know, I think it's so revitalization is so contextual and so varied from place to place, and so I just think it's important. We've had one back in 20.[00:07:00] 14 or 15, I think, something like that on it. But it didn't mention replanting and I just came to think that was really important and something that, that we could agree on.
You know, that's also something I, I think my resolution last year and this year, it's something easy to agree with. If you get the. Points of order out of the way and all that, then I think it's something everybody can agree on. And I'm a, I'm not a fighter by nature normally, and so I kind of went in and do those things.
Everybody can get on the same page and remember, Hey, this is why we're working together.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I thought that was a good aspect of your resolution. Versus maybe some other resolutions that are more contentious items. Like this was one that not only is it easy to agree with, but it reminds us of, kind of what we do and why we do it and, and why we're about this. and you know, you, you talk about how you've read through previous resolutions you're going through to see what's there, and it's not, this is where I see man, we're.
Wired very differently. like I, I don't even like reading the resolutions of that [00:08:00] year. like I'm always like, when it comes time to vote, I'm like scanning real quick and like seeing if this is something I think. And then if I didn't get time to read it, I look for somebody that I know that I think, yeah, I'll probably would vote the same way they would vote on this issue.
I just wait to see what they do and, and see. And that makes
me maybe.
Luke Holmes: I set out. To tell you how big of a nerd I am before Covid, that January before Covid, you know, I'm in Oklahoma. I set out, I thought I'm gonna read every annual from Oklahoma's history, and the first convention was 1906. I got up through 1930 or something before Covid hit and I lost track of it. But I'm gonna do that with a convention too.
That's just the type of nerd I am. So,
JimBo Stewart: So, so let me ask you this then. What, Role do resolutions serve? Like, because one of the things I always hear every year is, don't get too up in arms about it cuz it's non-binding, right? Like it's not a, governing document in the sense that no one actually has to change anything they do based off of what a [00:09:00] resolution says.
So what are historically, even like with Southern Baptist, what is the value of well writing a well crafted resolution. Voting on it, discussing ways to amendment, getting the wording right and getting it through.
Luke Holmes: Yeah, I think there's value in that. It gives us a way to express, this is how we feel about. Something now they're non-binding and they only represent the will of the messengers at, at that meeting. I mean, for all we know, the messengers last year could have been against revitalization or something, but they're only for that year.
But, but I think it's important in a way, in a way for churches to look to and say, Hey, here's what. The majority of Southern Baptist feel about this, about this topic. it's a way for, I think it's helpful for. Entity leaders or pastors or others, even in communication with the media, kind of the outside world and saying, here's a statement we made about this.
You know, it's been vetted and gone through, you know, the resolutions committee last year, bar Barber was the chair [00:10:00] of that this year. David's Sons was, there's pastors and theologians, Malcolm Yarnell was on there this year. lay people and kind of get all those opinions in there and get everything vetted and the words the right way.
And then kind of think, you know, this is. This is what we, this is what we think about something and it kind of gives us a reference point. Now over time those opinions change and there used to be a lot of resolutions about alcohol. There's not as many of those anymore for whatever reason.
There's always a lot of resolutions about abortion, you know, when there's war and other efforts, and it's kind of a way to address current topics. And so I think they're helpful that way.
Bob Bickford: One of my good friends, miles Mullen, who used to be with the Missouri Baptist Convention is now the chief of staff of the E R L C, and, we were sitting by one another during the second round of voting on resolutions on Wednesday afternoon. And, and I leaned over to Miles and I said, Hey, um, how important are these?
Do, do we need these? And he said, absolutely. They're important because they really form for us at the E R L C a lot of. our work because [00:11:00] they express the desire of the Southern Baptist Convention. And so I think that's a, an incredible, opportunity for us when we wrestle through those and, you know, we kind of, fight through the parliamentary procedure and, kind of pick a fight about something else during resolutions.
I think you, you have, helped us really see the history and the focus and the value of resolutions. One thing you mentioned that I just wanted to get your perspective on is, One of the wheres statements says that Southern Baptist acknowledge the diverse approaches and models of church revitalization and replanting, and they recognize that effective strategies may vary depending on the unique circumstances and needs of the individual congregation.
Just give us a background of, of that. I think sometimes, when we are facing a church that's been in decline, we ask ourselves. man. Is there, is there one thing that's gonna fix it? Are there a couple things in that statement? You, you were kind of broadening the umbrella to say, it depends and you don't have a one size fits all thing.
So kind of give us some of your thinking in that particular part of, of the [00:12:00] resolution.
Luke Holmes: Yeah, I think, as I said before, rev vitalization is so contextual and y'all know, going from one place to another, what works in a rural place doesn't work in the city and, and vice versa. And so, Finding, you know, the diverse approaches and models. I think when you approach something looking for that silver bullet, there's not one, you know, it's not looking for the guy who has the best preaching and that'll fix everything.
And lots of churches think, think that, Thinking that strategies vary depending on situations. You know, we have a local junior college in town and so we've tried to reach out to that and uh, other people don't have that, but they might have a factory in town or any number of things. And, you know, the, there's something, and to go back to rural churches, the larger the city, the kind of.
More alike. They are in a sense, and they all have their own particular vibe, but they all kind of have the same issues, you know? But rural places especially are so different. There's not even a good definition of [00:13:00] what the word rural is. I sat by a man in a conference one time and he said, uh, he was from a real small town, how small?
I said, oh, just 35,000. He said, I was like, brother, I've got some places to take you. I was like, come with me. I'll show you a small town, you know, and, the way you revitalize a church in a town of 30,000 is not the same. You do it in a town of 3000. I have a friend who pastors in a town of a hundred, in blue jacket.
That's a lot different too. You know, it's just from place to place. And so, one thing I realized, and as I've been studying this and, Reading on this, the, for my doctorate and other things, just seeing the diverse amount of, of resources out there. And I, I like the way, the North American Mission Board and you guys have put this together, you know, there's a lot of thought involved in it and yeah, you, you can pull out some principles and other thing things, you know, but the, the.
Principles are few, but you know, the applications are many, the way you apply it across different places.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. So one of [00:14:00] the amendments that I was gonna stand at a mic and ask for and, and wondering why, you know, talk about how we have been so influential and helpful to you in the work of church revitalization as your professors, as, as the founders and, and co-host of the Replant Bootcamp. I mean, how come you didn't include in all your research the other things you added here?
How come you didn't add the replant Bootcamp as part of the, the whereas or resolved sections?
Luke Holmes: Well, you know, some things are just too hard to measure. They're just, uh, they're too big. You know? How do you measure a mountain? I mean, how can you even make sense of it? You know, I do think when you, I didn't, I can look real quick, but I'm pretty sure there's never been a resolution with the Word podcast in it
JimBo Stewart: Oh man. How do you go look mean? How do said real quick you could do that? How do you, real quick go search. That
Luke Holmes: Okay. We go to. spc.net/resolutions. So if I can spell it here [00:15:00] on my computer then it lets you search for words. You, you can search by year. This is a great thing they've put together. You can search by topic by year, by all sorts of things. I just search for podcast.
It's not in there. And, you know, maybe that's a good thing. There's nothing that Mitchell. Or
JimBo Stewart: h.
Luke Holmes: or anything either, so.
Bob Bickford: Well, there's always, there's always room for another resolution. Since you are two for two.
here in a couple years, I think, uh, you might be thread the needle for the trifecta. Get the hat trick, and we would be, we would certainly be, happy to be included as a mention, a specific mention in the resolution.
because I think Jimbo's still a little sore from us not getting mentioned like we were last year.
On what page was it?
JimBo Stewart: Oh man, I don't remember now. I used to have it memorized. it was
- It was either, It was it was, some, I can't remember which page it was last year.
Bob Bickford: All right.
Luke Holmes: I will say I went and, uh, you know, the first rural resolution, actually I had the idea the year before and [00:16:00] I kind of drafted it and I ran it by Kyle Biman and Matt Hensley and they kinda, and they had helped on some of that year and they, and it didn't get approved. And then the next year he had started working.
Fernan then, and he took his name off and it did get approved. So just saying maybe that's, maybe that's a sign.
I don't know if that's on Kyle or Nam or what, but
Bob Bickford: It is Kyle and it is Matt. So maybe there was a, there was some pushback there. Who knows?
JimBo Stewart: Okay, so serious question though, on the 1, 2, 3 fourth, whereas, the scripture argument that you bring, I appreciated this. I like this, you said scripture exhorts believers to persevere in their commitment to the local church, admonishing, them to encourage one another to spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Not to neglect meeting together. Hebrews 10, 24 and 25. you're, I know there's an economy of words when it comes to writing something like this. and so this was the, I think the soul scripture kind of reference you used in here. [00:17:00] why do you think that passage and, and what if, if, if you were to add other passages you think that would point to the importance of this, what would those be?
Luke Holmes: Well, that passage is good because you know, to not neglect meeting together, revitalization is hard. And if you are committing to a local church and you know you're in a church that needs revitalization, that's hard. You know, I, I would love to go to the big healthy church with no problems, you know, wherever that is.
but sometimes we need that encouragement, that reminder. and I think it's a reminder too, that revitalization doesn't. Happen just because of the pastor. The pastor helps and he leads, but it cannot happen without good church members. And so this is not just for, pastors, it's for church members too, you know, to remember that, you know, it takes everyone working together.
pastor can have the best bylaws and the best, Sermons. But if he has ungodly people, then it does matter. And the church can have no bylaws and kinda run everything by the seat of their pants. If they have good people, it'll probably work out for the [00:18:00] most part, you know, and so it's a reminder there kind of, that we need to work together.
other passages, Jesus words to the church in Rev. Revelation are always important about, remember, and return to the deeds from which you came. I'm fascinated by stories, and I love the stories behind a church revitalization. How did a church get where it is? Sometimes it's by sheer sin, but not usually.
Usually it's just by. You know, by good intentions and by not carrying things out. And God has worked there in the past, I think lots of times in revitalization. There's a long to return to the glory days, but I think they don't even look back far enough, look back even farther at the beginning of the church and how God worked in that when it was small and how it gotta work through pastors and people then to grow it to become something.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: Okay, Luke, as you consider, wrapping up your doctoral degree, and as you look over the landscape of s BBC churches and you consider replanting and revitalization, what do you see? In terms of our future work, [00:19:00] what's necessary, where should we head? What are the opportunities?
Luke Holmes: You know, I think the, biggest. Help has to happen at association LE levels. They're the ones that have the inroads to these churches. Uh, lots of them will not respond to somebody from the Big Baptist board, you know, but, the local association often, and he's pastored there and he knows them.
He has met with them a lot. It has to start there and then it has to move to the state conventions and, especially for revitalization and for replanting. You know, Nam can bring in a lot of resources and direction and those things, but at some point you're gonna have to pull out and walk away, and then it's left then to the local association.
And I think. I think that's where the value is and everybody kind of learning their role and where Eric can together that way, and I think, when y'all have your annual performance review, you can go to Kevin Zel and say, Hey, we have a messenger mandate here.
JimBo Stewart: There we go. Messenger mandate resolution one. I I do appreciate that you [00:20:00] mentioned Nam as well as, the partnership with state conventions and local associations, cuz we do affirm that, man, it, it really does work best. I mean the most well positioned. Uh, institution in Southern Baptist Life for revitalization is the association.
and, as much as we can be back there cheering 'em on, supporting them, creating resources, providing help, man, that's what we want to do. And, one of those things that we're, we're promoting now cuz we wanna, this is one of those things we put together for that is the replant summit happening, towards the end of August, August 29th and 30th.
You can go back to last week's episode where we kind of talked through the themes of that, of renew, and, you know, mark Clifton will be there. Mark Hallick, Brian Croft, HB Charles, Jeff Chang, Tim Booker, Andy Addis, some great breakout sessions with Claude King who helped write some of the, The experiencing God stuff.
we'll have a breakout for the wives. We'll have Mark Hall and Brian Croft are partnering up again to do breakouts. HP Charles will be [00:21:00] doing a breakout on preaching. Man. It's gonna be, uh, a good time. Replant summit.com. Where you can go find the information to register for that event, and help us continue to live out this resolution on the importance of revitalization and replanting.
Luke, for everybody listening, I know that they can also find more things written by you, through, life research, uh, and things like that. Tell us just a little bit real quick, on where they can find other things written by you.
Luke Holmes: yeah, you can. I've had the privilege right for lifeway research a lot and for the church and other places. all those things. Most of 'em can be found at my website, luke a holmes.com. And I'm on Twitter most of the time, unfortunately. And, And Facebook and all that. So track me down. I'd love to hear it from you.
JimBo Stewart: Thanks for
coming to the boot camp.
Bob Bickford: Man, Luke, thank you so much. It's been great having you. And, and I just want to commend, our listeners check out Luke's writing. he is a, a good thinker. He communicates important truth in a clear way, and I think, uh, you'll be helped by them. So I enjoy reading Luke's stuff and look forward [00:22:00] to S B C 24 Jimbo and to see what resolution Luke's gonna bring forth next year.
JimBo Stewart: Absolutely.
Hey Bootcampers, this week the guys have been sweating it out at the SBC Annual meeting in New Orleans LA, the Big Easy! Aside from great food and connecting with friends we took some time to stop down and discuss the important work of renewal in a Pastor’s life and direct you to a great […]
How's it going Bootcampers? The boys are talking about the food recommendations in NOLA just ahead of the Southern Baptist Convention and then get around the to the important work wrapping up the Ministry Maxims series. Here are the food recommendations with the show notes below. * Cafe Du Monde - City Park * Chargrilled Oysters - Dragos or New Orleans Food and Spirits * New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary: Where to Eat List
Bootcampers if you are attending the SBC Convention stop by the NAMB booth and see us!
Now to the show notes, as you seek to bring renewal to your church with the Lord's leadership remember the following:
Maxim #6 Pursuing Faithfulness vs. Chasing Fruitfulness I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 1 Corinthians 3 Maxim #7 Commiting for the Long Haul vs. Considering another call when things get difficult For I do not want to see you now just in passing. I hope to spend some time with you, if the Lord permits. 8 But I will stay in Ephesus until Pentecost, 9 for a wide door for effective work has opened to me, and there are many adversaries. 1 Corinthians 16
We hope this series has been an encouragement to you. If you'd like to connect, if you need some specific encouragement reach out, drop us an email, leave a voicemail or drop us a comment. We would love to hear from you.
Our great sponsor, One Eighty Digital can give you some great help with your church branding and website, give them a call and let them know you are a Bootcamper.
JimBo Stewart: Here we are back at the bootcamp, Bob. Well, here we are, back at it again. I hope you're ready for the next episode. Uh, I was thinking about it as, as we continue this series, this is the third week in a series of things we've done on maximums and scorecards. This particular episode comes out the week.
Prior to the Southern Baptist Convention, if I've looked at my calendar correctly. so there are a few points of order I'd like to bring to the floor, as we begin
Bob Bickford: Uh oh.
JimBo Stewart: episode. one, food recommendations.
Bob Bickford: Yes. Here we go.
JimBo Stewart: Bob, I don't have time to give you all of my food recommendations. Here are a couple of guiding factors I'd like to bring to the floor as a motion to you.
In this conversation about food in New Orleans, one, it'll change your life. It's the most amazing food city on the planet. And if you think otherwise, I don't know that we can be friends. couple things you have to try if you're, if you're new to New Orleans area and cuisine just as kind of a touristy thing and [00:01:00] they're great.
You gotta try some beignets, you gotta eat beignets. I have some tips on how to get the best beignets. one is don't go downtown. That line is gonna be insanely long and they're gonna be in a paper bag. go to City Park. Uh, it's a little bit of a drive, or an Uber drive, Uber ride if you didn't bring a car.
but it's a much better view. The city park is gorgeous, and it's a lot shorter line. There's another Cafe Dumont out in Mey, even if you wanted to go to that. there are other Cafe du demands that are real beignets. And if you're gonna get a beignet, if you're a coffee drinker, get a cafe ole, with that and even dip your beignet in the cafe.
Ole, to, for sake of time, my alma mater, my favorite Southern Baptist Seminary in New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary has a great list of recommendations for food. we'll put a link to that in the show notes. highly recommend every restaurant on that list. and so enjoy them. if you want to hit me up, hit me up and I'd love to, I would love to even just have a [00:02:00] long conversation with you about food in New Orleans.
It's one of my favorite topics.
Bob Bickford: I love it and I would say this, here's a, here's a little tip for the, the first time beignet, consumer.
JimBo Stewart: Okay.
Bob Bickford: Do not inhale while you are taking a bite.
JimBo Stewart: No.
Bob Bickford: Of the beignet because the powdered sugar will cause you to hack and choke. And don't be a rookie and inhale with your, uh, first bite of your beignet.
JimBo Stewart: Also, if it's your first time, probably don't wear black or dark colors. Like, these are gonna end up, like if you've never encountered a beignet before, I can tell you it's more powdered sugar than you think it is.
Bob Bickford: Oh my gosh. It is.
JimBo Stewart: There's more to it than you think. so here's the other thing, other second point of order I'd like to bring, to the conversation here is, If you are a bootcamp listener and you're gonna be at the Southern Baptist Convention, Bob and I would love to meet you. please. If you see us come up, talk [00:03:00] to us.
If you hear, typically what I found Bob, is people don't recognize us cuz this is a podcast so they don't see our face and recognize us. Oh, you could stalk us on social media and you can figure out what we look like. what I found is people hear your voice in particular. And they'll go, yeah, they'll, they'll go, man, I recognize that voice.
Where do I know that voice from? And it's b it's Bob. And so if you hear our voices, you see our faces, and in particular, here's where, we would love actually to take a selfie with you. And here's why. We're coming up really close on 200 episodes, and I would love to maybe even as we come up on 200 episodes, just share some posts with, with people that we meet along the way, because we love it when we get to meet you guys out.
Out there as we're to, we're traveling and so I'm hoping that we'll see plenty of you at the Southern Baptist Convention.
Bob Bickford: Agreed. It is such a cool thing. I was, in Lexington, Kentucky and met several guys, that I'm friends with on Facebook and they're podcast listeners and. you know, from time to time I've seen him [00:04:00] comment. Now we're Facebook friends, so it was really awesome to see. See you guys. And here's what, here's what I just wanna say.
I mean, we are regular dudes who just work in the world of church replanting and revitalization, and so feel free to come on up and introduce yourself. And, I, Jimbo, I was, uh, pretty, I laughed a lot at the most recent, one of the most recent emails that, that you received or, or communication pieces that you met.
A guy was asking us, where, what kind of pants we wore, and then what our cool shoes were. And so I just want to say, not only can we help your church, uh, and your leadership, we can also provide fashion advice. So if you just wanna know what, what we're wearing, happy to let you know.
JimBo Stewart: Particularly, particularly when it comes to travel fashion, I think we've, we've hit like peak comfort strategy on, on travel.
Bob Bickford: Yes, so much so that, Jimbo and I don't, we were flying from, I think it's our Detroit fiasco. Like when we, we were going from toilets to Detroit, I determined [00:05:00] that I needed some more comfortable pants and so I'm on Delta and, I was ordering pants to be picked up at a, a store in Dallas. And that's one of the first things we did is we
JimBo Stewart: Well, yeah, so I don't know all this. He just says, Hey, we're going to Target, and I'm driving and uh, or, oh no, I'm, I'm manning the gps. And so I just look up targets in general, and he just goes, no, it has to be this target at. This address. And I was like, why does it have to be this target? I, I mean that one's not coming up.
and then when you get there and you were like, oh, I ordered some pants online. You all you said was, we have to stop somewhere. We have to stop a target and grab something. And I was like, what is it specifically just at Target? and it's like, what does it have to be Target? I mean, I like Target.
That's fine. but then you were like, no, we're just gonna pull up here. I ordered some pants online. I dunno why, but I thought that was hilarious. That. But while we're on the plane, you ordered pants online. They're great pants, they're very comfortable. just you, if you wanna know, they're Wrangler brand.
all Terrain I think [00:06:00] is what, something like that. And there's some pretty, you know, professional looking slack type, but they're like really comfortable, really great pants.
Bob Bickford: yeah, they got a side zip pocket so you can put the wallet or the passport down in there for their airport navigation and all that kind of stuff. And Jimbo, as you're recounting this story, it made me realize I give as much detail to you as I give my wife. She has, she's always like, well, you didn't say that. Well, you didn't think you did. And I'm like, in my mind, Jimbo, and maybe you do this. Like I thought I've said all those things in my mind,
JimBo Stewart: Nope. You just said we gotta go to Target. And then it just e escalated from there to a specific target to, oh. I ordered pants online and they're gonna bring 'em to the car. So it was, uh, it was a good moment. Uh, hey, we've had a great conversation over the last two. really I think I would include this summer episode we did kind of in this as a springboard into this conversation about, maxim's scorecards.
when, when we are limited in [00:07:00] our, Capacity, resources, people, all those things. how do we think about doing ministry in a way that is sustainable, that's not gonna burn us out, that's gonna get us moving towards our target and the mission that God has given us. And, Bob has put a lot of this stuff together.
It's been really good over the last few weeks. and so we're jumping into the last two of the seven maximums and scorecards. So before we do that, I just wanna read the first ones. As a way of reminder, and then you're gonna wanna go back and listen to the last two episodes to get the first five, and then even the summer episode if you haven't listened to those already.
Seven fundamental shifts for sustainable ministry. One, discerning and adapting versus doubling down and diving deep into discouragement. Two, leading pragmatic change versus reinvigorating old programs. Three, empowering and equipping for ministry versus exhausting yourself. Doing ministry being the only one doing everything.
Last week we talked about measuring actions versus counting [00:08:00] results and scorecards, and how do we. Figure out ways to measure input goals, to move us towards and identify those and celebrate those. and then we also talked about funding. How do we think about, the world we live in now and how economics are different than they have been historically for us in the North American Church and how that all takes some approaches.
So today we're gonna hit the last two. Of the seven maximums and scorecards, the, I'm just gonna go ahead and list both of them and then let's dive in. The first one is pursuing faithfulness versus chasing fruitfulness. And then last one is committing for the long haul versus considering a call when things get difficult.
Let's jump in to pursuing faithfulness versus chasing fruitfulness.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, man. This is a, this might be one of my favorite ones out of the seven. And, this comes from First Corinthians three. I love what Paul says as he's talking about the division of ministry and the call of ministry and the fulfillment of that here. Here's what he says. starting in verse six, he says, I planted a Apollo watered, but God gave the [00:09:00] growth.
So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are one. And each will receive his wages according to his labor. Right. So here's what Paul is saying. We each have a, a ministry role, and mine was, to, to proclaim the gospel, to plant the gospel.
A policy's, responsibility was to water that. But ultimately, when you see growth happen, Jimbo who is, who's the one who causes the growth? And it makes that happen. Well, it's a God, right? So oftentimes we've heard, you know, man, well, that, that pastor did an amazing job. He really grew that church well. He fo if, if he fulfilled his responsibility to either plant or water, God was the one ultimately who used that work to grow the church, right? So God is the one who gives the growth. And then it says everybody is the same. Like we're in unity here. Like if you're planting or you're watering, man, great job.
You, you've been doing your work. We are workmen who work under the [00:10:00] lordship of Jesus Christ. an assignment that God gives. And so, Just be faithful in fulfilling your responsibilities in that assignment rather than chasing the fruit. that we try to, you know, we, we try to get church growth and we chase whatever thing we think is gonna give us church growth, and it, it ends up frustrating us.
And what we end up doing is, and here's the key, we are neglecting the actual work that God has assigned us when we chase fruitfulness in some ways.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: And I think that's what Jared Wilson said this in one of his, books. He said, Christ isn't calling us to grow his church. He will do that. He's calling us to be faithful.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think it's so important because, The harvest is not up to us and the well done, good and faithful servant that we're all hoping for is not gonna come from, our ability. To produce fruit, because none of us have any ability to produce fruit. We just don't, we don't have that, uh, a great analogy I've heard, my wife use, even when she's talked with, pastor's wives and she'll say, [00:11:00]Hey, how do you grow a flower?
Here's some seeds, and how do you grow a flower? Let's talk about how to do that. And then, and then she'll say, all right, without the seeds, how do you grow a flower?
Bob Bickford: Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: Well, you don't, right? Like, like we are limited in what we're able to do and it's, it's the Lord's Church and it's our job to be faithful.
And, man, there's so many times in the Bible where people do what they're supposed to do and it doesn't seem like what was supposed to happen happens. Like it just works an entirely different way. and God is always faithful. Always faithful, but it seems like he's r rarely pulls off stuff in the ways that we would think he's going to.
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm.
JimBo Stewart: there we always have a temptation like Abraham and Sarah to take it into our own hands and, and try to fulfill God's promises for him. and when we pr, when we chase fruitfulness rather than faithfulness will end up, striking the rock, we'll be having our own child through the servant rather than through the way that God gave us.
And, there's so many [00:12:00] examples of this in scripture where, we think we're doing a good thing, but we're chasing it for the wrong reasons. We're trying to make it happen ourselves. And so much of this is to be dependent on the Lord.
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So true man. I think of o uh, one of the things that reminds me of is, one of my favorite N F L Hall of Fame, speeches. and I didn't see the whole speech, but I saw a, a portion of it. And Jimbo, you know, that I'm a long suffering and extremely regularly disappointed. Dallas Cowboys fan.
it just, we, you know, I, as soon as we don't convert a fourth, like a third and short, the very first, third and short conversion that we miss at the very first game. Of the real season. I'm already calling the Cowboys out of the Super Bowl. I'm saying that the season is over and, and I found great joy in doing that.
That just, I always, how fast can I do it? Back in the day when they were good, they had a running back named Emmett Smith. And, he was phenomenal, but they also had a fullback that a lot of people have forgotten [00:13:00] about. And the fullback's job, was to block for Emmett. And when they would get into a scoring situation if Emmett was gonna get the ball, there was a guy who would block for him.
The guy's name was, uh, Darryl Johnston, and they called him Moose, right? And so Emmett's receiving his Hall of Fame induction, and one of the things he says with tears in his eyes, I could not have done it if it were not for Darrell Johnston. Right. And Darrell Johnston, if you know anything about him and the sacrifices that he made on the football field have, have walked with him to this day.
Like he is just physically, he's like just a wreck. Like most n f l football players are, but even more so cuz he just was unbelievably, you know, sacrificial in, in the way he would hit through the hole and block for Emmett Emmett would dance into the end zone and all that kinda stuff. Well, I think Jimbo re planters are like the Daryl Johnstons,
right? Like, there's so much sacrifice. And here's, I mean, I bet there's a replen or two that's listening to us today that nobody really knows that's probably scraping together, you know, resources to provide [00:14:00] for his family. And he's doing so because he feels like God's called him, do that, and he's being faithful and, and he's creating, he's sowing that seed.
He's watering it. He's maybe even, he's plowing ground before you. You plant the seed. And I just want to say, man, Just be faithful in the role and with the gifting god's given you and let God sort out the fruitfulness. And there's a lot of things that you're never gonna see right now that you'll only see way down the road.
but the fruit is God's job. The harvest is God's job. Be faithful, in the role that he's called you to play.
JimBo Stewart: Hmm, that's such a good word. I think, man, that's maybe one of the most important of the seven maxims that you've listed here. moving to the seventh one, committing for the long haul versus considering a call when things get difficult.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, man, Jimbo, I don't know about you, but in those first, three years of replant, um, I would, I would experience something very difficult and I would think, I think I've made a big mistake.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah,
Bob Bickford: And I would [00:15:00] think, is it time to look at the job offerings board somewhere else? should I pick up the QuickTrip application and make application to be a manager here?
Like, I mean, just all those sorts of things. And, and that's what way we have a tendency to do when things get hard. And, and what I realized is through all of that, I did not have a well-developed theology of pastoral suffering.
JimBo Stewart: Hmm.
Bob Bickford: And, Clifton, you know, when I first met with Clifton the very first time, I asked him what I would experience in replanting, and he said, you'll, you'll experience significant spiritual attack and deep dark depression.
Well, Jimbo, I didn't want to hear that. Like I wanted to hear, you know, an endorsement on my strategy or Yeah, you're doing the right things. Keep on going. It's gonna be hard, but just, you know, you'll make it. But I think what I learned along the way is that God is doing something in me. And on me and around me before he's gonna work through
me. and and that's part of things that, that, I don't think I picked that up in bible college or seminary.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, no, I think it's, it's such an important thing. It's one of those that, me and my wife will talk about how we [00:16:00] really thought God was sending us to this replant so that we could, save it and we could be the answer. And, what we didn't know is that God, Was really using this replant to save us to, I'm not talking Sal Viff, but I'm talking like our sanctification.
I felt like it was sanctification bootcamp, like, uh,
Bob Bickford: That's a new podcast.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Sanctification Bootcamp. There we go. That's our discipleship podcast. go ahead and trademark it. man, it was, it was sanctification bootcamp for me. It was like I, I grew in ways there that you can't grow, In good times. I mean, I, I grew in my maturity and my understanding of my role in ministry, of the, of my role and my relationship with the Lord in ways that you just can't, I don't know that you can grow in those ways when things are going great.
and I, I, I loved what you said. I mean, you gotta have such a good. Theology of pastoral suffering and, and perspective [00:17:00] on, on, on how this is not new. nor is your suffering the worst. you know, I think we have a tendency to kind of be like Elijah right after he, you know, he defeated all the prophets of bail and then he goes and runs and hides in the mountain because somebody's mad at him.
And, you know, we're like, oh, I'm the only one, there's no one else going through what I'm going through. when you know God's like, no, I actually have thousands of people going through what you're going through. And, and so, you know, for me, honestly, what helped me with perspective was reading about Bon Hoffer's life, reading some Nick Ripkin Insanity of God and Insanity of Obedience.
Um, And, you know, things like that that give you perspective of persecuted believers and, you know, it, it makes the, the bad business meeting seem a little less, horrible and, catastrophic when you start to read what others have gone through historically in the faith.
Bob Bickford: Absolutely. Our good friend Brian Croft, when he talks about his [00:18:00] story, at, Auburndale, he mentions, a significant verse that helped form his perspective on. This theology of pastoral suffering. And he points to, uh, first Corinthians 16. Here's what he says. Paul, Paul writing, again, Paul was a guy who suffered a lot, uh, because of the ministry.
God called him, to, to fulfill. So Paul writes and he says, I do not, uh, for, I do not wanna see you now, just in passing. I hope to spend some of my time with you if the Lord permits, but I will stay in emphasis until Pentecost, for a wide door of effective work has opened for me. And there are many adversaries.
Right. This is his greeting, you know, kind of his benediction. And we, Ty typically kind of zoom through this and we miss this passage that he's basically saying to us. and it's recorded in, uh, biblical history here. oftentimes when effective ministry is about to take place, there are a lot of adversaries and there's gonna be a lot of struggle.
And so I think that I learned of that experientially at our replant when things got weird and crazy and wacky. And when there was a lot [00:19:00] of conflict in our body, what it meant was not, it was not time to not leave. It was time. It was not time to leave, but it was time to realize that there's effective work going on here as the Lord is.
Is maturing all of us and calling us to walk with him in as a church family. and so there, there, we've talked about this before, you can suffer consequences and struggles because you do stupid things. Like we're not talking about that. What we're talking about here is when you seek to, to, fulfill the vision that the Lord has given, your, your local body, your local church, and be obedient to scripture.
Sometimes you're gonna come into adversaries, uh, who, who don't want that to happen. And ultimately, Satan, our ultimate adversary who doesn't want that to happen. Cuz if a church has continued to be dysfunctional and and decline, it's not gonna be an effective church for the kingdom of God.
And so he's gonna throw everything he can at the re planter and then at the church to keep that from happening.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. my sister who, um, had a brain tumor discovered last year and had a major [00:20:00] seizure and had to go under major brain surgery and has had a lot of lasting effects from that brain surgery. was texting me and my wife the other day, uh, a book that she just started reading called This Too Shall Last.
By KJ Ramsey, called, the subtitles Finding Grace when Suffering Lingers. and it's written by somebody with an autoimmune, autoimmune disorder that's suffering a lot in their life and it's, it's not gonna be, Cured it's, you know, in this side of glory. And, the quote she texted me was, the seemingly impossible task of enduring suffering and rejoicing, in it as born in the impossible reality, that God became human.
The I impossibility of having joy in a body with an incurable disease is made possible by God in a body. The possible possibility of hope in your despair is alive here, as close as your breath cause of Jesus. The sound of love is human. and he is with you. and that [00:21:00] suffering and the suffering is not wasted.
It's not wasted time, it's not. and, and this is again, just to go back to, I wanna echo this one back to the pursuing faithfulness rather than fruitfulness. if we are only focused on our ability to produce fruit, Then that suffering feels like a big waste of time. Like it feels really unproductive.
But when we're focused on faithfulness and just doing what God has called us to do, and being faithful and stewarding well, the opportunities he's given us. Then in that you have the possibility of seeing the point of the suffering in the midst of the suffering, and you can live out James chapter one of taking joy in that trial because God's doing something.
You may not know what it is, but he's doing something. I had that conversation with a discouraged pastor the other day. He's not the lead pastor, but he's, he's in a hard situation at another church and we were talking about the hard stuff and I said, listen, God is up to something. He's doing something.
And he's like, it doesn't [00:22:00] feel like he's doing anything. And I said, I promise you he's doing something. And I think what you need to do is figure out what that is and what he has for you and be faithful in it.
Bob Bickford: Good word. Hey, pastors, replants, revitalizes. We care about you guys. And if it's hard right now, and you'd just like some brothers to walk with you and pray for you, man, reach out. Um, send us an email, drop us a voicemail and uh, let us know how we can, can be praying for you and encourage you.
JimBo Stewart: Absolutely. Hey, and if you're at the Southern Baptist Convention next week, come by, say to us, watch for our social media. We may post where we're at and or, or not, but we'll see.
Bob Bickford: well, well, and I will just say this, we'll be at the nam booth cuz Jimbo, you and I both work for the North American Mission
JimBo Stewart: is true. Yeah. You can come
Bob Bickford: so yeah, if you, uh, and then, you know, we love to see you.
Hey there Bootcampers! Summer is well under way, Bob and Jimbo have been taking some down time to renew and refresh, but they have some great content ready for you. In this second installment of Ministry Maxims they highlight some important shifts for pastors to consider as they lead. One of the first steps is […]
Hey bootcampers! In this episode, we're talking about shifting our mindset from focusing on the wrong scorecard to focusing on missional engagement during the summer. We know it can be discouraging to feel like you're not measuring up, but we're here to encourage you to focus on what's really important.We also introduce a topic for future episodes that expands this mindset beyond just the summer and shifts our thinking about scorecards and how we approach ministry, especially with minimal resources and people. We know this is common among the majority of our listening audience, so we want to provide helpful insights for you all.Did you know that the average size of churches in the Southern Baptist Convention is around 70 people? That's right, we're all in this together! And despite the challenges of the pandemic, there has been a recent rise in worship attendance, baptisms, and giving. We know many pastors are experiencing pandemic fatigue and trying to evaluate how to lead differently in the current circumstances, so we're here to offer some practical advice.We discuss the impact of the pandemic on pastors and the decline in pastoral satisfaction. But fear not, we introduce a talk by Bob Bickford called Ministry Maxims and scorecards, which focuses on leadership principles that can be applied in any setting regardless of church size or resources. We encourage pastors to use the slower pace of summer to make shifts in their leadership style that will have a lasting impact on the upcoming season of ministry.We also talk about the importance of discerning and adapting to the current situation instead of doubling down or diving deep into discouragement. We suggest creating a stop doing list and delegating tasks that do not align with your calling or mission. And we provide three ways to develop discernment: immersing oneself in God's word, reflecting on the ways of men, the world, and the church, and exercising good decision-making by dialoguing with key leaders.Lastly, we discuss the challenges of leading paradigmatic change in a church and how it's important to shift the culture towards a biblical mission and vision driven by the Word of God. We know it can be a difficult process, but by asking questions and evaluating the mission behind what you're doing, you can make sure that your ministry is effective and in line with God's will.Thanks for tuning in, and we'll catch you next time!JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are, back at the bootcamp. Back at it again. Bob, I hope you're ready for the next episode. Deep into the heat of summer, and enjoying a little time here in the Great Sunshine State.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I'll be heading your way soon, Jimbo. gonna be vacationing at Seaside, Florida with some of our friends. That is, told where the Truman Show was filmed.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: I actually. In preparation for vacation and Seaside last year, I watched the tournament show.
JimBo Stewart: You know, when Trip and I were in Charlotte doing our disc golf, dude road trip, we watched a different movie each night. And one of those was the Truman Show because it's one of my favorite movies ever. I love the Truman Show, so I, I would be interested to see if you, if, if I'm sure there's gotta be some fun Truman show.
Touristy, picture opportunities that I expect. Text messages with great picks from you.
Bob Bickford: So you're gonna be disappointed because I can watch a movie and [00:01:00] do you have a, you have friends that can just really quote lots of movie lines and all that kind of stuff. Jimbo my quotation ability from movies that I've seen is pretty limited, right? Like, so I can do maybe the first of Star Wars movie that came out when I was, you know, really little.
12, seven or eight I can do The Sandlot, which is probably remains one of my favorite movies. Baseball movie I love. the line after Squince, pallor tricks, Wendy peppercorn into giving him mouth to mouth so he can kiss her. And, the narrator says he kissed a woman. He kissed her long and he kissed her.
Good. I love that one. There's so many great, great lines from, uh, the sandlot that, that I know. other than that, all I know is that Truman was shot in Seaside, and, that's about all I can tell you.
JimBo Stewart: Well, if you, if you haven't across anything, I'd love to. I'd love to see, see anything as you come across it. Hey, speaking of summer, last week's episode, we talked about, as you're jumping into summer and you kind of [00:02:00] have. Usually that means less people, less money. And if we're focused on the wrong scorecard, that becomes, incredibly discouraging and frustrating.
And we start to, you know, really get depressed in the summer. But if you can switch your scorecard a little bit. And, I think last week's episode was great where we talked about focusing on missional engagement. How do you mobilize your people in missional engagement during the summer? Take advantage of some of the unique aspects of summer.
so as we're doing that, you know, Bob, you've got a talk that you've been doing lately that I think it'd be great for us to do a couple episodes. two to three episodes on, that really what takes that mindset and expands beyond just the summer and, really shifts our thinking about scorecards and our thinking about, how we approach ministry, especially with minimal resources and people, which, I'm just gonna venture.
The large majority of our listening audience has minimal, resources in people. Because of just the, the content that we discuss. And, but even if you don't have minimal, you know, you have a larger than average, [00:03:00] which by the way is what, like over 150? 200 is, is over, over, over a hundred is, is larger than average, right?
Bob Bickford: Yeah. Yeah, I think the average size of the s BBC church was like, I wanna say 66 or something like that,
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: I can pull up the stat here in just a second, but, but you'd be absolutely surprised. And, you're a hundred percent right, like the. Majority of us don't have a lot of resources that we can just throw at a need in the church, that sort of thing.
you know, it's an issue. So I was wrong on that. Jimbo, the average size of a church in the SBC life is 91. This is according to ACP data.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. But it's like, 80% are below a hundred though, right?
Bob Bickford: Yeah, yeah, Yeah.
yeah, yeah. Um, 79.1% are 99 or less.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. So, uh, you know, right at, right at 79, right at 80% are less than a hundred. So if you're over a hundred, just know, you're not a small church. You are larger than your average church. and if you are struggling at 65, 75, 80,[00:04:00] You're right there in the norm. You know, 56, like that's, that's a normal normative size church.
And so as you're thinking about that, you know, and there's been a lot of interesting media and articles and social media debates, uh, because we love to do that. About the state of the Southern Baptist Convention in particular. I know not all of our audience is Southern Baptist, but that's our tribe and so we obviously have a little more knowledge there and, it's been a great point of discussion in the world out there today of what is the state of how are churches in Southern Baptist Convention doing Bob.
Bob Bickford: Well, you know, I'm encouraged because the recent, ACP analysis, we've seen a rise in, worship attendance. In baptisms and in giving, and this was coming out of, COVID, right? So I think what we're seeing is we're actually seeing some, some growth from a low, and then I would also say this, we did an analysis on the percentage of churches that are, or the either in decline plateau are growing when Jimbo, from, from the last [00:05:00] 10 years, we're actually seeing fewer churches are in decline and.
More churches are growing and so we're, we're excited about that. so I think there's some good signs that are, they're pointing, to some healthy things. But by and large, what we also see Jimbo, is that there are a lot of pastors, I think, that are, coming to the end of their pandemic fatigue. And they're really trying to evaluate, do I stick this out?
And if I stick this out, how do I lead now? Right? Because I can't lead in the same way.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, you know, we're beyond the point where we can continue to blame Covid for everything. Yes, we've, we've been beyond that moment. but what you can still accredit to the season of the pandemic, is just how tired a lot of pastors are right now, because they kind of fought through and, and pushed through and gritted their teeth and, you know, white knuckled maybe through that season and are now on the other side trying to rebuild.
and legitimately that was a disruptive moment in our culture in the sense that we no longer live in the same. Culture that we did before Covid. And so we find [00:06:00] ourselves in a new missional context, with, new challenges and, things to approach. And so, the wellbeing of pastors has to come into factor in this conversation as well.
Bob Bickford: You're, you're a hundred percent right. And you know, Barna Reese, released a study and a lot of those stats were coming out. And so what we've seen is, is we've seen most pastors in 2015 there, a majority of them, 72% said they were really satisfied with their job. in 2015. Now, the latest resource that Barner showed us is that in 2022, only 52% said that they were satisfied.
So we're, what we're seeing is, is pastoral satisfaction, is, is declining and the number of factors in that Jimbo. But I think one of the things that we want to talk about is if you are in a, a church that has weathered, the challenging aspects of, Covid in the last couple years. You're tired. you're facing the cultural headwinds of an approaching political season and all of the cultural changes, like how, how do you leave now in, in a way that's going to help your church in light of your [00:07:00] context and your resources?
So I, I've developed a talk. Called Ministry Maxims and scorecards. And I think what we're gonna focus on is the ministry maxims these are leadership things that you can do in any setting regardless of size of church, context of church and resources of church. And I think these are things that would be helpful for us to talk about in terms of, Of, pastoral leadership and what I would say, getting back to, kind of the stuff we talked about in the initial intro.
Summer's a great time to work on things in the church because the pace is a little bit slower usually in some ways. you do have some people out, and then what you don't wanna find yourself doing is trying to ramp up for the fall, like a week before school starts, right? So, So take the summer season, and think about some shifts that you can make in your leadership style and approach to things that will have lasting impact for the, for the whole next season of ministry.
JimBo Stewart: No, I think that's great. as we think through this, knowing how, how to focus and, accomplish what we can with what we've got and not try to overshoot and not try to be something we're [00:08:00] not. but how do we. Focus on what it is that is most important. So let's hit it off with the, the first.
Bob Bickford: The first maxim is discerning and adapting. Versus doubling down or diving deep into discouragement. So one of the things that's important for us as leaders, Jimbo, is I think we can, uh, find ourselves in a situation where, Where we just, we're just gonna get it done. And so we kind of double down, right?
Or we, what we're doing isn't working and we're not sure what to do, and we're exhausted and we can't figure it out. So we just kind of dive deep into, into dive deep into discouragement. So I think what, what we really need to, to come to is a place where we step back from a situation, from the context of our church, and we discern what's going on, what are the really important things.
What, what are the things I need to be giving my time to? Where, where am I exhausted or what am I exhausting myself with and is it actually helping us fulfill our mission? And so I need to discern those things. And one of the things we've talked about historically here is [00:09:00] every pastor needs a stop doing list.
Like if you did one thing this summer and you started a list of things that you need to stop doing and maybe delegate, right? And we're not talking about major pastoral responsibilities cuz there's some things that we just don't want to do, right? Cause we don't like 'em. But they're under our leadership.
Umbrella, but what is it that, that the Lord has called you to do? And then adapt towards that. Like what, what are the, the most strategic and significant things that you can do to help your church in this next season of ministry that lean into your gifts, lean into your expertise that also em empower and mobilize people to, to do things that you'll stop doing.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think the episode we did a couple weeks ago on discerning the difference between important and urgent could be helpful as you're doing that. and even, you know, I was, I was talking with a discouraged pastor recently who's just overwhelmed and there's a lot going on, and he's in that moment, and, and I just said, I said, Hey, listen, here's, here's the thing.
you gotta take one day at a time. And you know, when you're, when you're really deep in discouragement, you gotta take one day at a time and you gotta figure out what is it that [00:10:00]God has called me to do? What are, what are the, what are the things I know I am responsible for that I need to do well? and do those.
And if you don't have the people, the time, the money, the resources, the capacity to do something else, then don't.
and it's gonna be okay. you, we don't have to overcomplicate everything We need to be thinking ahead. One of those things is we do need to be thinking ahead what, what's happening in the fall?
but. as, as we're getting ready for that. But I love that discerning, discerning what's really, what really matters right now. What is it? What is the most important things for me to be putting my energy into and my effort and thought into, what can I delegate? How can I develop others and to take some things so that I'm just doing the things I know I'm supposed to do and adapting instead of just doubling down.
And, when we double down and just continue to do the things we've always done. it never is gonna play out as well as we hope. And it's, it's not, we're not gonna get back to the way that it was effective before. Because every day we walk out of our door into a new ministry context [00:11:00] and culture, it, it's constantly ever changing, which means we have to be ready to constantly ever change in the way that we approach those things.
Not in, not in what we're about, and what we're called to, but in how we do that.
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm. There are three things I think that help us develop discernment. First of all is just immerse yourself in God's word, right? Getting God's word. And let scripture wash over your mind, and your thinking, and your emotions, and your perspective. next I would say, if you could reflect on the ways of men, the world and the culture.
And the church. just think through, how are all these things playing together? Like think through people's schedules, people's levels of commitment, what's happening around you in your church context, and then exercise, good decision making by dialoguing about these things as a group, get your, get your key group of leaders together, whether it's elders or deacons or ministry heads.
Get them together and then just think through. Because, because we, it's easy for us to say, okay, develop discernment. Well, there's some ways that you. Develop discernment. So those are just some real simple practical ways.[00:12:00]
JimBo Stewart: All right, so let's, uh, let's move to the next ministry maxim that you have listed is leading paradigmatic change versus reinvigorating old programs kind of connected, to the one we just discussed.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, so I, when I first went to our replant here, there was a, a committee or group, a team that was called the church Council. Have you ever heard of a church council?
JimBo Stewart: I have, I, I've not experienced one personally. well, I have in churches I've been helping, but not in the ones that I've led.
Bob Bickford: So in, in most churches, what a church council is, is it's a group of all of the ministry leaders that meet to discuss the calendar events that are scheduled for the church. And so here's how our church council went. what did we do last year? And then someone would say, well, we did this thing and then we've got this event coming up.
Okay, well, what do we need to do to make that happen again? Right. There was [00:13:00] no, uh, there was no discussion on was it effective? Did people show up? Did it accomplish its ministry purpose? Did it have a ministry purpose? Right? one of the things that, that I realized was we're gonna have to have paradigmatic change.
We have to change paradigms, the way we think about things, the way we approach ministry in, instead of just. Doing the same old thing and maybe doing it better. Right? So when I came into that context as a, as a replant pastor, they were hoping that I would, just make everything that they'd already done better, real, rather than asking the question of what do we really need to be doing?
Right? I think some, some places they were like, yeah, we need to do new things, but here's what we've got to do. This is coming up. There was really no thought about, let's. Let's really ask, is that the right thing to do? Jimbo, there was this thing that we did, at our church called Christmas Around the World, and here's what Christmas around the world was.
It was a Sunday evening gathering and we invited different people, group churches. So we had the Arabic church, the Chinese Gospel [00:14:00] church, Hispanic church, and we would invite them to come and each group would sing a song, with their choir, or two songs with their choir. someone would give a devotion.
And then we would hold hands around the sanctuary and sing Silent Night each in our own language. And then we would walk downstairs and we would, everybody would bring the food from their ethnic people group. So you'd have Arabic food, Chinese food, and then if you didn't, We didn't have an Hispanic congregation, so we had some of our own church members that like made a, you know, old El Paso Mexican food. And so as a chef, you would've hated that one, but you might have enjoyed the others. but right before we did this, and this is, so, I came to the church in November and I remember that one of the oldest, members, joy, and she was 92, she was an old lady that was named Joy, but she didn't appear to have any joy.
JimBo Stewart: It wasn't a prophetic naming like in the
Bob Bickford: No, no, it was not the old [00:15:00] Testa cation. She's a sweet lady. but she just said, well, it's time. Do Christmas on the world, and, I'm old and I'm tired and it's my year to do it, but I ain't doing it. Somebody else is gonna have to do it. So So I just said, well, I just started asking those newcomer questions.
Why do we do this? What's the purpose behind it, et cetera, et cetera. So we ended up doing it that year and it was okay. It wasn't great. but then the following year we began asking more questions about what we do. And so that's leading paradigmatic change, you know, replant or you, if you're new to spot, you probably don't want to kill Christmas around the world, because you don't wanna be like, Jimbo blamed that he hates Christmas or hates wmu or whatever, you know?
Um, But you at least need to begin asking questions cuz here's the difference between a leader and a manager. A leader asks questions about why you're doing something to make sure that it's in keeping with the mission. A manager just tries to improve what you're doing and doesn't evaluate the mission.
JimBo Stewart: Mm. Yeah, I mean, what you're talking about is changing culture. I mean, that paradigmatic [00:16:00] shift, that's hard, man. It's, you know, we've all heard the saying culture, each strategy for breakfast and the idea there is, Whatever your strategies are, if you've not changed the culture, then they're gonna get swallowed up.
And, another way to say that, I guess is strategy. Your strategies, especially if new will always lose to the culture
it comes to when they come to a battle. And so, You know, I, one of the things you said in the last one is immerse yourself in God's word. I'm convinced part of the way you have to do paradigmatic change and change the culture of a church is through the word, and one, I think you have to paradigmatically shift the church.
To truly see the word as their authority. and you have to lead with the word as authority. and if you can accomplish those two things and you're truly leading in a biblical mission and vision driven by the word, and you've led the congregation to truly see God's word as our authority, then you can lead through the word [00:17:00] paradigmatic change.
but. It's hard, man. There's a lot of questions you gotta ask. There's a lot of, sacred callous, you gotta starve to death or kill somehow. And, it, this, this is one of the hardest pieces of leading change is impacting the culture.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, it is, it's really hard. you know, there are three things I, I love Todd Bullinger's book. canoeing the Mountains. He talks about how do you change culture? He suggests a couple things. One is you gotta understand the existing culture, right? Really understand it. Why do we do this? How did this start? Who, who is this important to? You know, what was the mission behind this?
Because sometimes you can redeem something if you can recover the mission,
right? So that's important to do. And then he says, you gotta gain trust and demo. Demonstrate credibility. So you gotta preach good sermons. You gotta visit people, you gotta love 'em. You gotta build relationship so that they'll, Trust you as you seek to change culture. And then here's something I love this Bolsinger says, you gotta birth something new together. The summer's a perfect time to do that. what if you got with some of your leaders and said, what if we tried something new together, [00:18:00] to, help our body connect with the community?
Right? going back to the last episode, what if we. What if we just did popsicles in the park, right? And let's, let's do this. Let's just try this and see what happens. I think those things are super helpful. but you're, you're exactly right. I think if you, if you're trying to change culture, you're gonna be exhausted because you, as you're changing culture, you're still doing all the same things you've probably already done right before you can let go of them.
You have to change the culture of the folks to hang on with the death grip. To the things that they do, and you've gotta change the culture of putting your trust in programs or things like that in order to trust God, pursue God, and and discern what he might have for you in the future.
JimBo Stewart: I love your suggestion of, of. Birthing something new that is, for a season, this temporary even. I think it's, you know, when you come in and you just go, Hey, from now on to the end of eternity, this is how we're doing this. you know, that's never gonna be received well. but if you can say, Hey, Hey, just try this with me for, you [00:19:00] know, for four weeks, for six weeks, for three weeks, whatever.
one se one semester, one quarter of the year. Usually people are usually, not always, usually people are, amenable to, to try something for a small season and just see how it goes. so pick something that you're pretty sure is gonna win. and this is, you know, I wouldn't start with something super risky.
If you're just starting to change the culture, you can increase your amount of risk as you go, as people, uh, start, start to buy into your leadership capital and take, you know, that, gain trust and demonstrate credibility. That's that leadership capital we talked about, a few weeks back. And, and so continue to build, build that, do something temporary, something seasonal, understanding what you've got, and, and try something new together for a season.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, let's wrap up with this one. the shifts that I think you have to, to make is you have to empower and equip your body for ministry rather than exhaust yourself doing ministry. And, and so, you know, one of the constant themes that [00:20:00] you bring in as Ephesians for about equipping people for the work of ministry so that the body becomes mature.
I think what happens during a season of great change, And cult a great season of trying to change the culture and maybe deconstructing is we can deconstruct some things that were good in that someone else or a structure or a group of people was Was leading out in that area, and when you deconstruct it, it's gonna roll back on probably the pastor, right?
And so, in some cases, as you're trying to form something new and you deconstruct something, you'll find some gaps. You'll find, oh my gosh, we just took out a support leg for ministry that I didn't realize we just took out. And then what happens in that moment is, somebody's gotta do it. And so typically what happens, uh, what I've seen happen in the summer season, Or in a, in a season of great change, the pastor, ends up doing it or falls back on a key leader because sometimes Jimbo, the, the people who have been freed from a structure of ministry that, that hasn't had an [00:21:00] expiration date on it and it was already expired.
JimBo Stewart: Hmm.
Bob Bickford: set 'em free, bro, they're out. Like they are free. and then you realize, oh my gosh, we, somebody's gotta make the bulletins right. Somebody's gotta do this. And, and we ran into this recently in our church, our custodian, long-term custodian. this should say the church I'm attending now, I'm part part of, and a member, member at our longtime custodian was the one that always switched the, the boiler, from wintertime to summertime, turn on the ac and he had a significant medical, medical issue was gone and nobody knew how to do it.
And here we are, in, into warm weather here in the late spring. And man, Jimbo, it's hot, right? And, and so we had a situation where there was nobody else cuz the structure. That had been present to have a properties committee had been changed before our, our current pastor was there because there was a merger and so they just did away with every committee and leadership team.
And so they didn't realize, oh my gosh, there, there's a deficit here, so now we're scrambling. In a good way, Jimbo. And I think too, using [00:22:00] the, the crisis of that need to put in structure that's gonna be healthy for the long term, that it's not gonna fall back on the pastor.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think that's so huge. I mean, you can't have anything so dependent on you, and we've talked about the, you know, end of the liver line kind of mentality that you end up with as a, as a pastor and everything ends up falling to you. But, if you just burn yourself out because you feel like all these programs have to happen, you're not serving the church well, that, that's not serving you well.
Your family well, or the church well, and that's where, you know, the beginning of this episode, I think we said sometimes when you just don't have the people, you don't have the money, you just don't do it. you know, I think when it comes to air conditioning, Bob, you should probably get somebody that can turn the air conditioner on.
Uh, That one's, that one's necessary. You gotta figure that one out. You, you, yeah. You outsource that. You figure out somebody that can do that. But you, but to the point, like you don't want to find yourself in that spot where only one guy knows how to do that. Right.
And, uh, Not just even with [00:23:00] logistical things like, you know, maintenance, but even the, the ministries that you do.
Right? I, I met a pastor one time that, you know, when he showed up on Sunday morning, he, did the announcements. He led the music, he did the sermon, he did the. Children's moment. He led Sunday school. He, you know, was the first one there to open the doors and turn on the lights and he is the last one to leave to lock the door.
and it was like, man, what? This is not church. this is, I don't know what this is, but this is not the biblical body of Christ being the body of Christ. And, and so that may, if to take this approach likely means you'll initially be doing less stuff. And that's not entirely a bad thing. now not everyone's gonna believe that's not a bad thing, but it's not entirely a bad thing.
At our church, we, when we had some exits, some key exits, it severely put us at a disadvantage for children's ministry. So I met with our remaining children's ministry volunteers and I just said, [00:24:00] listen, here's the deal. Burnout is not an option. We're not, nobody's burning out, we're not gonna do it.
how many Sundays can we realistically provide what we think is good children's ministry services without burning anybody out?
And
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm.
JimBo Stewart: answer, Bob, was once a month.
Bob Bickford: Wow.
JimBo Stewart: So you know how often we did children's ministry?
Bob Bickford: Once a month.
JimBo Stewart: Once a month, until we could do it twice a month. And, for us, we actually found we loved that rhythm of every other week. The kids were in service with us and we found ways to incorporate them in and have some great times with them.
but we had to work our way back to twice a month. And the deal was, We're just not gonna burn anybody else out. We'd honestly, we'd already burned out too many children's ministry leaders and, and we just said, well, this is not a pattern we can continue. that's a, that feels like a easy thing to talk about on a podcast, but that's a hard thing to lead in your church.
Bob Bickford: it is absolutely most difficult to, and then I think the other thing that I would say, is there are things [00:25:00] that pastor, you probably need to let fall to the ground in order to expose two things. One that you, you can live without it. As a church, and then two, somebody within the body has to step up and do it.
You can't. Right. In addition to all the other things you're doing, and sometimes the strategic drop, or deficit is, is does more in terms of helping shape and shift culture than you saying something about it. Right. and so you can't do that with everything because you, you start losing credibility, right?
And, and, you know, it hinders the body, but if there's a strategic drop that can take place, the well-placed, use of a strategic drop can be a really good leadership moment for, for the church. And so just consider that if that's something you can do to help shift the culture.
JimBo Stewart: All right. This has been excellent, Bob. I think, let's come back next week and d dive into, a few more of these because I think this is really gonna be helpful for guys as they are navigating the summer and planning for the fall.
Well Bootcampers, summer is right around the corner and that means a lot of things. Shorts, BBQ, swimming and the summer slump in weekly attendance. Fear not loyal Bootcamp listener, the summer provides some great opportunities to connect with your community in creative ways while mobilizing your church to be more missional. The guys break down some of the ways from this original blog post on another site, you can find here.1. Pray for your neighbors by name (Of course, you’ll have to learn their names to do this). 2. Take a morning or evening walk everyday at the same time. Pray. Wave and say hello if the opportunity allows. If you have a dog or kids take them with you. 3. Invite neighbors or co-workers over for a cook-out or “porch-party.” Having people in your home can be intimidating. Move the party outside and enjoy. 4. Have kids and have neighbors with kids? Water balloons and squirt guns go a long way. 5. Neighbors who are shut-in, elderly, or alone may enjoy a visit from time to time. Just ask? 6. Find neighbors interested in a block party or school kick-off and plan ahead for the fall. 7. Live music in your city/neighborhood-gather and go. 8. Popsicles in the Park. Bring popsicles for your little ones and extras to share. 9. Look for opportunities to help. Notice the grass getting long or a trash bin still on the road or knocked over? Take the initiative and help out. People will realize you don’t just care about yourself. 10. Listen. This missional principle is essential. Listen to your neighbors and co-workers. Listening shows you care, allows you to respond in a way that is thoughtful, and makes the world bigger and more beautiful.
Do you have some missional ideas or things your church as done to reach people during the summer? We'd love to hear about it, drop us a line, voicemail or comment and remember to subscribe and share your feedback on your favorite Podcasting Platform. This summer would be a great time to address your church website and branding. Our awesome sponsor, One Eighty Digital has the know how and experience to get you heading in the right direction. Give them a shout, let them know you are a Bootcamper!JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are. Back at it again. Back at the Replant Bootcamp. Bob, I hope you're ready for the next episode. Here we are, halfway through May. A little more weather is really starting to warm up down here in Florida, and maybe even a little bit out there in the, in the east, the western Midwest, east of St.
Louis,
Bob Bickford: The Eastern Midwest.
JimBo Stewart: Eastern, Eastern, Midwest, whatever. Wherever it is you are.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. So, it is said that St. Louis is the western most east coast city, so that may be where you got tripped up of just
JimBo Stewart: That's, that's such a confusing statement. I don't know
Bob Bickford: I know.
JimBo Stewart: mind will ever remember that correctly.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, it's, it's confusing even to me. I have to slow down when I say it. So, man, Jimbo, it's a beautiful day. I was out actually earlier and I was, in the, uh, convertible and had the top down was, uh, playing some, uh, Casey, which is our rock station, and I think we had some eagles going and, and
some other stuff.
So, [00:01:00] Today was a, a beautiful day, and it's in the high sixties and, I love it. And so Jimbo, that means that summers right around the corner.
JimBo Stewart: Right around the corner, man. And summer is such a unique time for churches, depending on how you approach it. Summer sometimes can be like a dramatic drop in attendance and
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm.
JimBo Stewart: Or it's a pretty good increase, or there's VBS and there's youth camps and there's summer missions and all kinds of things that go on in the life of a church in the summer.
Bob Bickford: And most of the renewals churches or the churches that are revitalizing or replanting, here's what I've seen, and especially during my years, you're strong through Mother's Day, and then after Mother's Day, it's like everybody disappears
until the week before school or the week after school,
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, it can be a
little discouraging.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, so you're running on like a summertime crew and, schedule's just a little bit lighter, for you, perhaps in some [00:02:00] ways, maybe even some, for some of the families. So one of the things I, I thought we should talk about, and that's why I recommended the topic, is how do we use our summer? To be missionally active and how do we help our church members be missionally active with us during the summer?
So before summer hits, maybe we could give some quick hits and some, some things to think about about how to maximize your summer for mission.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. You know, you talk about at the post Mother's Day kind of slump, this episode's scheduled to come out the Wednesday after Mother's Day. So, so what we've just told you listener, is if Sunday was a really great attendance day, then. Sorry, that's probably done for a few months.
Bob Bickford: And here's a playbook. Run with it.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, this is, so jump in now and start thinking about what are you gonna do this summer? And, and I love the way you have approached this Bob, not just, Hey, what are you gonna do this summer to try to keep attendance at a certain point? but rather than focusing on how many people are showing up on Sunday morning, how are we sending, [00:03:00] how are we mobilizing our people?
How are we taking advantage of the summer and the differences that the summer brings? In order to mobilize the members of our church on Mission.
Bob Bickford: Absolutely. So I want us to think about this two ways, cuz I think it's important. First of all. There's the mission field right around the church, right? So your church to have kind of a church centric mess, missional, approach. And what I mean is that the geography, the address, the location, the people that are right immediately around your church because he, here's what I know, Jimbo, it can be 50% or, or more, or 50% or less of your church attenders who live right around your church.
Right. And the day of driving and automobiles and, choice, you may be reaching people that drive, you know, 10 plus minutes to, to attend your church. And they don't shop in the area, in the neighborhood where a church is, but your church still has a mission field right around it. so in some ways, think about it that [00:04:00] way.
And all those who live close to the church, rally them for mission-centric activities that occur right around the church. Then what I would also say, Jimbo, is how can you empower those who drive further in, from further away to be on mission in their neighborhoods? Right? you know, they're driving in to do mission.
Well, let's, let's reverse that cuz remember in Matthew 28, what does it say? Go. Into all the world. All right, so you've already got them dispersed after Sunday, but equip them to do mission in their neighborhood. And so these suggestions that we're going to to make here, here's what I like about them. They don't require committee approval or calendar space, they really don't acqui, uh, require all that much money.
Like you can do this with, with just a limit to money. So what we would love, to see is some replants and revitalizations just kind of take some of these ideas and maybe even implement them. And then send us a picture. Like, put it [00:05:00] on our Facebook page, put it on Twitter. We would love to celebrate and highlight the work that you're doing, uh, to the missional in your neighborhoods.
JimBo Stewart: Absolutely. No, that'd be really good. Uh, all right, let's, let's sum of these out. Let's start with, the first one that you've got listed here. Pray for your neighbors by name. course, you'll have to learn their names in order to
do this.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. There's a couple things that you can do here and I think if you just, show up at the church or at your house and you can produce a very simple prayer
JimBo Stewart: Mm-hmm.
Bob Bickford: That says something like this, Hey, we're so glad to be in your neighborhood. Our church is gonna be praying for the people of our area over the next few weeks.
Is there anything that we could pray for you about? Right? And give them that card. And you could do two things. One is you could put a stamp on the back of it. So that they could fill it out and drop it in the mailbox. You could put a QR code on it where they could scan it with their phone and then fill out, a prayer request.[00:06:00]
And then as those come in, Share those with your church family, right? Do some of those o on a Sunday morning as they come in. Say, Hey, we're gonna pray for one of our neighbors. They indicated that they were, you know,
interested in this. Jimbo, if you have a sign, do you remember those signs where you change the letters all the time?
Where, where somebody has come up with a pithy saying, and then you gotta change. Or if the high school youth break in, they put, they like spell out bad words on the sign and you've gotta change that before Sunday. So I mean, Put it on your sign. If you've got letters or if you're really one of those churches that, that has arrived and you have a digital sign, man, put it out there on your sign that, that your church is praying for the neighborhood and you'd like for people to share their prayer requests.
What this does is one, is it lets your neighbors know that you care about 'em, but it also motivates your church, to be active in knowing the needs of the neighbors right around either the church or in their neighborhood.
JimBo Stewart: I think one of the ways you could think about that is, if you were to draw like a tic-tac toe symbol, and, draw your, draw your house [00:07:00] in that middle circle, and then, if you don't know the names of like, so what is in that tic-tac? So circle, if you're the center who lives across the street from you, who lives behind you, who lives to the left, who lives to the right, and then who lives diagonal from those.
And maybe a goal for the summer is, is even just figuring out the names of those families. If you're, if you're not aware, and this is something that you can easily challenge your people to do, and at the very least, right, you get the names and you start praying for 'em and you, and that's it. That's as far as you go.
But certainly if you could go steps further, that'd be amazing. But for some people, that's gonna be a pretty overwhelming task, just depending on how you're wired with that. And, that might be one of those things that, that's a really great way to think about how do we just even identify who our neighbors are?
How do we pray for them? How do we invest in that relationship? and not just put something on their door that says, Hey, you should come to my church. but how do we actually build, a relationship with them?
Bob Bickford: Absolutely. Here's another idea. It's important for us to get out and be active in [00:08:00] our neighborhood. So one of the things we've done, Jimbo, is we've adopted a couple of dogs, the pit bull wrecking crew. and we constantly walk those pit bulls, not because we necessarily. Decided that we just wanna walk a lot, but if we don't walk the dogs, they get into mischief in our house.
Right? So it is, it is necessity. But one of the things that's been great is we've learned the names and connected with a lot of people in our neighborhood just by walking. And everybody has a story about a dog. most people like dogs, right?
So, you get to know people. So what I would say is whether you have a dog or not, maybe you got some kids get a wagon, Get their bike, get their scooters, and just walk the neighborhood on a regular basis when it's cool and talk to people.
Stop and get to know their names and that sort of thing. So get to know your neighbors and even, you might even have a, prayer card in your back pocket just to say, Hey, we're praying for people in our neighborhood. our church is. I'd love to give this to you and, just know that you don't have to indicate your name, but we're just praying for needs in the neighborhood.
So Love to have the opportunity to pray for you, get to know them, uh, check in with [00:09:00] them. And I've got some really good friends now, from walking our dog for about a year now. Uh, we've had Daisy for about a year and then added Dax in December. And, I've got some really good friends that, that I have meaningful conversations with on a regular basis.
JimBo Stewart: I love that idea. I think part of that is, we no longer, for the most part in America, live in a society where people are okay with you knocking on their doors. and so just walking around, being outside, catching people outside is an opportunity to, to know people in a less. Uh, intrusive, invasive way in the culture that we live in right now.
Uh, the next one you have listed, I love this. If invite neighbors or coworkers over for a cookout or porch party, having people come in your home can be intimidating, kind of in that same vein. And so move the party outside. Enjoy, get, not just walk around, but see if you can't get 'em just in the yard, on the porch hanging out.
Bob Bickford: Absolutely. Our, our neighborhood, is like that. Our city's like that. And you've been to our city, so, you know, we're kind of a, a front porch and sidewalk community where everybody's out [00:10:00] walking and live. Music is a deal and backyard parties are a deal. And so, we have a, yard that is, wonderful for entertaining.
It's got a fire pit. We've got cafe lights, and one of the things we have done on a regular basis is, is after the 4th of July parade, we'll just invite our neighborhood over for a cookout and hangout. And, they come out and they hang out in the shade. They, we talk and we catch up, and that's kind of our one.
Time of year really to connect with each other face-to-face. But we connect with each other o obviously, throughout the year. But you can leverage your, your home and uh, in your backyard. Now, here's what I know. Most people, if you've never invited them to your home, most neighbors are nosy, and they want to come and see what your home's all about.
Right? Especially if they can stay outside of it, right? So, so they'll come over and, and check it out. But hospitality jimbos is one of the most underutilized ways of, being missional. But it's also one of the easiest and most effective.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah. And that's, again, just as a pastor, uh, of a replant or a leader in a, in a replant or revitalization, just be thinking about what [00:11:00] are, what are the ways that work in your context to creatively point people, towards some easy. low commitment missional steps to get them move in the right direction.
Uh, another one you have on the list here, Bob, number four. Do you have kids? Do you have neighbors with kids? water balloons and squirt guns can go a long way. you know, we love that here in Florida when it's 175 degrees outside. we love to get a slip and slide going. A pool.
We've got a pool in the backyard. we got a trampoline and you know, you get some water balloons, squirt guns going during the summer. Man, even the adults will jump in sometimes.
Bob Bickford: Absolutely. Absolutely. One things too, I would say is the next suggestion is don't forget the older folks in your neighborhood. The shut ins and the elderly. there's some folks who maybe their family's gone away. maybe it's just a couple of 'em. Maybe somebody's recently lost a spouse. Like just be kind and gracious and include them.
Yep. Take cookies over, take, you know, a fruit basket. Maybe share some things from your garden, you know, those sorts of things. And then spend just a few times. [00:12:00] A few moments sitting with them on their porch or, or standing at the door and just having conversation. I think that, that one of the loneliest groups in, in our communities often is the senior adult who doesn't have family or kids right around.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: and so they're one of the most, important groups to reach out to,
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, our, our neighbor across the street is a senior adult lady that lives on her own. And, we've trained our kids now. I mean, if you are playing outside and you see her pull up with groceries, you know, you weren't over there and you helped put the groceries. in the house and she walked with a walker.
And, you know, they've done that on such a regular basis now. And when her mower broke, we cut her grass for a while. And, so it was so sweet this east, you know, we lived here for a little over a year now and, this Easter she got all three of our kids Easter baskets.
and so just making those connections with senior adults is so important.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. The other thing I would say, Jimbo, this kind of goes to the the house thing. You could have a block party in your neighborhood. You could also have a block party at your church. What I've discovered is in my neighborhood, which is really affluent, people are more likely to go [00:13:00] to a neighborhood block party versus a church block party.
Right, because there's a relational aspect and so don't, don't not leverage your church's facilities and, and properties for a party, but also don't overlook the fact that most people want to be, in their neighborhood. Right? And, it's a lot easier to walk out the front door and down the street than to get in the car and drive across town to go to a black party at someone's house, or to at the church. So I, think, don't, overlook the church, but also. don't underestimate parties in, in the neighborhood
JimBo Stewart: I would add to that that is, is not even on this list but would help you with all of these is you know, there's an app called Next Door. that is kind of like a social media app for your community, for your neighborhood. that's a great way to, let people know that you're doing a block party, connect with those sorts of things.
See, sometimes people will post needs that they have, in their neighborhood there. that's just a great way to, to tie into all these things that you're doing.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. the other thing too is I would say is, [00:14:00] there's all kinds of live music that, happens in areas, particularly in our city. And so invite friends that you know that are in the community to meet you at one of those venues enjoy some live music together. Specifically if you have friends that are.
maybe on the fence where it comes to church or things of God or that sort of thing. And then invite some of your other friends who attend the church with you and introduce them. And then just, especially Jimbo, if you're trying to teach people how to have a missional conversation that, that are really kind of unsure about how to do that.
man, go, go visit a a, a live music. Concert. We, we have a, a cafe that does live music every weekend during the summer. We've got a gazebo series, we've got a blues festival. And, man, it's just a great time to, to get out and do that. here's another one that is, kind of fun, is a popsicles in the park party,
right? You know, it's everybody. Like I don't think I really know anybody who dislikes a Popsicle Jimbo. I mean, there are probably some out there, but during the [00:15:00] evening, particularly if you have a park that adjoins a baseball practice field, man, grab the giant church cooler. Fill it with ice, dry ice and then go get a bunch of popsicles.
You could get those plastic, you know, kind that are, you just cut the top off and then you push it up rather than the stick kind. Or you can do both right? But just do a popsicles in the park party and get a jambox out there, having have good music and, and hole and some, you know, games and just have some, just a fun pop-up party.
cuz everybody likes a fun pop-up party I think.
JimBo Stewart: Oh, absolutely. One of the things we would do, oftentimes in summer here in Florida, there are several public pools or, apartment pools, that are shared. And, take our kids and we'll take, a big Gatorade cooler full of like lemonade or something like that. And just set out a free sign of, Hey, free lemonade.
And kids are out playing in the heat and they didn't bring anything to drink with them. And, and so they're excited to get some free lemonade. Ends up making a mess. And so if you do that, you know, [00:16:00] pick up the trash, don't. Be the guy that brought all the trash to the public pool and, and leave it trash.
Uh, and so it's a commitment to, to have that. But it's also a commitment to make sure that you, you know, clean up after yourself whenever you go. But it is great, it's a really good opportunity to get to know people, talk to 'em, cuz they're gonna go, Hey, why would you do that? And,
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm.
JimBo Stewart: it gives you a good opportunity just to talk to him and see what, where that conversation goes.
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm. Here's one, one that's kind of a, for the non extroverted type missional. Folk who are out there who want to do something good for the community, but also are, are just hesitant to interact with people. If you see something in your community that needs addressed, like a particular area like a median or A place that is kind of along a road that is like trashy or is unkempt or something like that, man, get a few folks, and just go tackle that. Like clean up the trash, cut the grass, you know, kind of trim some things back and just serve that, [00:17:00] serve by doing that sort of thing in a very practical way.
Often what I've found is, is when you do stuff like that, people will actually roll down their windows and go, man, thank you so much. are you at the city? Are you like, no. We're with, such and such church, and we're just out here serving the community. And that will stick in people's minds and they'll go, wow, how about that?
That's, that's something that they're not just about their thing, they're building their property, but they're out here to, to add value to the community. And so if you're super introverted and, you're more service oriented, uh, man, serve the community. Make it a beautiful place in the name, uh, of Christ, and, and go for that.
JimBo Stewart: That's also a really good way, even if you're not introverted, to mobilize some of your members that probably are. I, I know in our community, we have a lot of good old boy guys that would cut any grass, cut a tree, build anything, repair anything. they're not gonna have a conversation with a neighbor with a stranger though, not naturally.
But if you say, Hey, we're gonna go, and we would do this periodically, we had, I don't, I don't know [00:18:00] why the Lord did this. Maybe it was for this missional opportunity, but like, Lord gave us a lot of guys at our church that cut grass. and so we, we would take those guys, say, Hey, how many of you guys could take this Saturday and let's just go find some yards in the neighborhood with high grass and just, I'll do all the talking.
don't worry about that. I'll do all the talking. And I would go with them. I would go, I would go knock on the door, be like, Hey, here was the redemption church. See that's, uh, been a while since you've been able to cut the grass. We've got a whole crew here. We would love to do that for you.
and then usually I would end up talking to that person half the time they were cutting grass. a way to get them involved and taking a step in the missional direction. And, really it's a way for us to disciple our members. Into being missionally minded and we're not gonna get them, you know, all the way there in, in step one.
And so you gotta figure out what are the baby steps I can get them to take? And I think that's a really, great suggestion that you've got.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. Here's the last one. listen. Listen. Now, how do you listen to your [00:19:00]community? This can be a little bit challenging, but here's some suggestions. Jimbo. One is, if your community has a paper, a. A Facebook page, social media presence where people interact. If, you know, there's kind of a neighbor's page, that sort of thing, man, read that as a missionary, right?
Not as a conservative evangelical that's gonna get frustrated by the stupid content that's in the paper. But because Jimbo, here's a newsflash for the listening audience and for all of the Baptist world. Lost people. Act like lost people
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, absolutely.
Bob Bickford: last time I checked. Right? So expecting non-Christian people to live by Christian ethics and doctrine, you are setting yourself up for a world of frustration.
So just don't expect that, but [00:20:00] take the view that Christ did when he saw the masses. That he saw them as harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd, and his heart was breaking for them,
right? So with the eyes of Christ, listen to your community and hear what they're talking about and hear what their needs are, and then see if there's some way that you as an individual or a church can engage with the community.
and be a blessing. Now here's, here's one surprising way that over the years, the Lord allowed me, has allowed me to be a blessing to my community. my community is very, very liberal, very, very affluent. And so all of the ideologies that can run contrary to Christianity are present in my culture.
I mean, they're just, It's, my culture's rife with that, right? And so oftentimes I've just said, Barb, we just need to move outta here and go live on a commune and raise goats and flowers, right? Like, this is just [00:21:00] driving me insane. And, uh, even sometimes I'll text you some of the crazy headlines and stuff that I, that go on.
And so, here's what the Lord has allowed me to do. I, I know some of the city council folks, I know the mayor, um, I know some of the leaders in the community. And when there's an issue that's got people upset, there have been sometimes Jimbo that the Lord has allowed me to enter in and be a peacemaker and to be a voice of, hope and help in an otherwise very divided and divisive situation.
And, I would've never imagined that that would be part of being a blessing or being missional inside of the community.
Right. And so, taking the position. To be a peacemaker means that I oftentimes don't say fully everything that I believe and don't share all of my convictions, but I listen and ask questions, and I see if there's common ground that we can establish for the good of the city and for the good of the community.
And so what I would say is, is pastor you and [00:22:00] your people, Try to figure out how to do that. Right. And Jeremiah 29 talks us about, the children who are next, the children of Israel who are in exile. The Lord sent a message to them like, live in the city and work for its good, and raise families and try to prosper and, and be about blessing the city.
And I think that Jimbo, the, the Christian missional impulse for us, Used to be. I've gotta tell people where they're wrong and what to believe and that their centers in need of salvation. And there's, there's nothing wrong with that, and that's completely true, but somehow we've gotta un uh, discover and uncover that the missional impulse. For us in the present culture is if we can be listeners and be blessings, and if we can model what it means to to have a vibrant relationship with God and love people. I think we'll see people warm to the gospel. We are still gonna have to communicate the message that people are spar from God because of their sin [00:23:00] and in need of salvation, but it certainly gives us the platform to do it when we take the listening and loving approach.
JimBo Stewart: Absolutely. I think it's so wonderful. Uh, and just the way that you've listed this out I think is very helpful. Bob and I would only add one other thing. I think we've talked about this some before. Sometimes as re planters, we forget that we can learn from church planters and develop partnerships.
And, summers are a really good time for developing partnerships, for getting mission teams to come down to and partner with them.
To partner with other churches to do things is a really great thing as you see needs in your city, uh, to not just do that, just your church or just for your church. What are two or three other churches in your community that could partner together on doing some of these things together? Um, so I think it's great as we think through this, not to focus on, hey, how do we make sure we can keep attendance up over the summer?
but how do we, how do we increase missional engagement over the summer?
Hey Bootcampers, Jimbo and Bob are back home for a bit before heading out once again and take some time to break down a question posed by one of the Participants they received during a recent event regarding how to lead changes in your church. In short, Leadership Capital. The guys spend time unpacking this idea a bit more. Sit back, grab your favorite beverage and listen in as they talk about this important leadership issue.Leadership Capital: is the influence that you acquire over time, which is stored in the minds and hearts of those you lead. When leading changes, you make withdraws from this account.As a leader you build this capital over time, in slow, regular steady increments. If you are new to a church, you don't acquire instant leadership capital just from your position. It must be earned through leading well, demonstrating competency, character and establishing credibility.Check out this EP and the ones listed below for more insights on leading well.Here are some additional bootcamp EPs to check out regarding leading change:* Your First 100 Days * How "not" to lead Facility Changes * Emotional Cycle of Change
Lead your church in developing a credible presence online by contacting our great sponsor, One Eighty Digital. Their expertise can get your church message into your community in a clear and credible way. Let them know you are a Bootcamper!JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are. Back at it again. Bob. I hope you're ready for the next episode of the Replant Bootcamp here in our own domiciles. You got your dogs with you. we are, not on the road and, the replant road trip mayhem of the last few months cranking from like an 11 down to like a seven.
Bob Bickford: Man, I would agree. you especially, you had a couple more trips than I did. but we have been on the road, I think our most recent trip was to Southern sim or Southeastern Seminary, excuse me, in Wake Forest. And, MI Replen had a great, great time there with Keelan and the crew. And, man, it's been a really good, a really good winter slash spring, it's really good that we are now sliding into spring because I know Jimbo, you are not a fan of the cold weather.
JimBo Stewart: No, I am not. I've gotten a little with all the look, I think I've been in 12 different states in the last 90 days, and,
Bob Bickford: Oh.
JimBo Stewart: most of them are not as warm as Florida, and so I feel like my body has started to adjust and it hasn't been as miserable. as before, [00:01:00] although I walked out early the other morning here in Florida and I think it was like 61 and it was windy, and I was like, yep, this is too cold.
I'm not. I'm like, it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be like this.
Bob Bickford: Man, that is a beautiful spring day here in, uh, Missouri, and we would welcome that with shorts and, probably, I'm not a flip flop guy. I don't know about you, but I, Jimbo I don't know any man's feet that are pretty, do you? I, and I just don't.
JimBo Stewart: no, no, I, well, I mean, Florida prefe are not a prerequisite for, for flip flops.
Bob Bickford: Okay. You just wear 'em.
JimBo Stewart: You just wear 'em.
Bob Bickford: Well, there you go.
JimBo Stewart: Well, hey, one of the events that we did, uh, was am I replant? We did that at New Orleans and in, uh, at the New Orleans Seminary and at Southeastern in Wake Forest. And, the q and a sessions, I think are, the discussion panel is one of my favorite times where we get to hear kind of what's on the mind of those that are attending these events, that are considering going to replanting or new to [00:02:00] replanting and.
oftentimes it comes down to kind of pace of change, especially for a new guy, which we've got, you know, I would harken you back if this episode's particularly helpful to you to some episodes like, first 100 days or things like, or how not to do lead facility changes or, some things like that.
one of the questions that we got recently got me really thinking about the importance of, discerning between things that are important. And things that are urgent, and those are not always the same thing. and urgent is not always urgent. Like urgent sometimes feels urgent. But actually isn't urgent.
And then sometimes urgent is urgent, but it's just not important. but it's still urgent. And when we're considering those things, I think one of the things we have to do is we have to think about how to spend our leadership capital wisely. I remember as a young guy the first time somebody explained that to me, it was really helpful, in thinking, Bob, how would you explain leadership capital?
Bob Bickford: Well, leadership capital is the influence that you acquire over time and you store it[00:03:00] up when you need to make, in the future, when you need to make a withdrawal or a a, a decision or Leads lead the church in a particular direction. You're drawing upon that capital, you're dropping, drawing upon those, those small moments, those everyday moments that give you credibility as a leader.
And capital is the word that we, we are using here to describe it. So every time, every time I make a leadership decision, that is a little bit challenging. Then I'm, I'm withdrawing some of that capital because people trust me and I'm able to, to spin that. I think Bolsinger, in canoeing the mountains talks about leadership as disappointing people at a rate they can absorb and will accept.
Right. So I think that's really, I think that's really good in, in that sense. And so every time you. You are leading forward in, in calling people to change. You're spending capital and if you don't have it, this is particularly why when guys first show up, they don't have a lot of capital, and just because you got a position, it's not monopoly.
You don't start off with a certain amount of cash, like you start out with zero. [00:04:00] Right?
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Well, and depending on the context you're walking into, you may walk in in debt. Uh, like if, if you're coming into a situation that is, uh, already pretty contentious. And you're the new guy, or even sometimes, and this is a nobody's fault necessarily, but if, if it's a replant and you're from the supporting mother church, you're seen as an outsider.
And not only do you, do you not have anything to start with, you kind of have less than nothing and you've gotta work. You gotta work to build up to zero.
Bob Bickford: yeah. Especially if the guy before you like overspent his capital
and, uh, just because you bear the name pastor and the position of pastor, you might be starting at a, at a deficit. Like you say, that's not fair, but sometimes that's it. That's the reality.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. And I think part of that, so one, recognize that when you walk in, you, you don't have a lot of leadership capital, if any, ready to spend. So you gotta make choices, very wisely. The other thing is,[00:05:00] For most leaders, if you're, if you're a leader, then the pace of change is going to be slower than you want it to be.
and I like that that quote that Bolsinger gives of leadership is disappointing people at a rate that they can accept. And, you know, I think you have to go at a slower pace for several reasons. One, change is overwhelming for all of us. We're not all overwhelmed by the same changes, but we are all overwhelmed by change.
And so I would harken you back to episodes on emotional cycle of change or vision, adoption cycle, things like that where we've talked really more in depth on that. Just know it's, it's an emotionally draining, overwhelming thing. To go through change. And so make changes, spin capital wisely. And building that trust and building that capital takes time.
and some of the ingredients I think over time. Bob, I would love to know your thoughts. I was thinking about you have to des you have to demonstrate, competency like that you actually can [00:06:00] do what you're supposed to be doing. You have to display some really good character. you have to demonstrate a commitment.
Consistency, and build connections with people emotionally and really different types of people are gonna respond differently to each of those ingredients, of how you build trust and leadership capital over time.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I think you, you're nailing some of the most important ones in terms of. Building capital for change. Competency obviously is the foundation. Do you know what you're doing? Right? And Jimbo, I think that's as, that's, and here's some, some places where pastors miss it, especially the visionary pastors.
If you're leading the people to. Participate in an event, say a mission project, or a discipleship project. Here's a little tip. Make sure that it's as well organized,
right? Make sure that you're not ordering the food for the event. An hour before
JimBo Stewart: yeah.
Bob Bickford: right? Everybody has name tags that the PowerPoints are ready, that you know, all of those sorts of things.
And I [00:07:00] think this is just basic kinds of leadership acumen that that wasn't taught in seminary or maybe you just didn't get, or maybe you didn't have a, a home situation where your, father or your mother. Taught you to be prepared and always, always add value, that sort of thing.
But you can really blow a lot of credibility, in simple things that d that really d denigrates your competency. So I think you're hitting on those things, Jimbo. And I think the other part too is, you just gotta love people. Well listen well and pastor well. And when you do those things, that'll, that'll establish some credibility.
I think of our good friend Markk that talks about the importance of pastoring. This is why Jimbo, you don't have to be like a stellar thousand star leader oftentimes to get people to follow you if you love them and you listen well, you lead them, accordingly.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, it's not necessarily super complicated. That doesn't mean it's easy, but it's not necessarily super complicated. Now, part of that is another reason I think you have to do paces slower. Change [00:08:00] is, change takes time to stick. if you don't, if you don't give time for one thing to. To kind of stick before you move on to changing the next thing.
I mean, it, it might just reverse on you, a lot faster than you anticipated. And all of this is to say one, just, it's gonna be a slower pace. But the key that I wanted to focus on today, Bob, is as how do you, as a new leader especially, or even if you're an established leader, how do you discern when something comes up?
Is this something that's really important? Or is this something that is really urgent? or is it both of those things? and then how do you, how do you lay those out? And I love, I'd love to actually look to our old president, Dwight d i, Dwight d Eisenhower on this, he has a great quote. who can define for us with accuracy the difference between the long term and the short term, especially whenever our affairs seem to be in crisis, we are almost compelled to give our first attention to the urgent present rather than to the important future.
And so [00:09:00] he built a matrix. Four quadrant matrix that a lot of people have taken and adapted from there. I think Steven Covey, maybe one of the guys that really ran with that, many years ago and, and really popularized this matrix. but. It's four quadrants and, and the axises, you know, is this important or not important?
Is this urgent or not urgent? And so, I know this is a podcast, so you can't see things, but if you think of the top left quadrant being important and urgent, so this is, it's both right? This means it has to be done now. the top right quadrant, Would be that it is important, but it is not urgent. So it's very important, but it doesn't have to be done right now.
And so you need to schedule when you're gonna focus on that important thing. On the bottom half of the quadrant, the bottom left quadrant would be that it is, not important, but it is urgent. So something that has to happen, but it's not super important. but it is time. Like it has to be done quickly.
And then the bottom right [00:10:00] is it's not urgent and it's not important. And one of the things that's fascinating is it's amazing how much time we spend in things that are not important and not urgent. We probably should not spend really much time at all in that quadrant, but we end up spending a lot of time there.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I think you have to ask yourself why, like, why are you spending your time there? And sometimes we're, we are. prone to put off the difficult things.
And the tedious things. And we want to do the fun things. And oftentimes part of being a leader is doing, determining what, what time you have, what resources you can allocate to a task, and then also the priority of those tasks if they are urgent or important or not important, that sort of thing.
And so you really have to think about. How you choose to do your work. And oftentimes you'll hear good leadership mentors that say, do the difficult thing first and get it out, done and outta the way, because oftentimes that's when we have our best mental energy and our work energy. [00:11:00] And then do the fun thing later, which your passion and your enjoyment will, will pull you through on that, right?
And so, part of it is looking at your schedule and your responsibilities and, and making a, a call in terms of priority and energy and focus, that sort of thing.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. and figuring out what, what it is there. And I think part of it is when we talk about urgent. We have to also distinguish that just because something is emotionally charged does not necessarily make it urgent. Meaning
it doesn't have, like I think sometimes we, when we're in like a contentious situation, especially if we're the personality type that, really struggles with conflict or things being really not fully copacetic.
Then we will try to deal with the things that are most emo emotionally urgent before we start to deal with the things that are super important. and I think the hard part is the area we ought, the quadrant we really ought to be spending most of our time in is actually quadrant two, which is things that are.
important but not urgent.[00:12:00] Meaning, these are the things that, really move us towards our goals. These are the things that, this is that deep work stuff that we've talked a little bit about before of, man, we, you know, I gotta really drill. This is sermon, sermon prep, right? prep, if you do that right.
And you schedule it and you've got it built into your week, then it's super important. but hopefully it's not urgent when it becomes important and urgent and you're pulling a Saturday night special. you can do that periodically, but you don't need to be doing that every week. and so it oughta, you oughta really try to keep the things that are super important, but not urgent in that second quadrant.
But especially when you first walk into a church, Bob, it seems like, Everything feels really important and really urgent. And so how do you, as a newer guy walking in and you're seeing 10,000 things need to be changed. How do you practice tactical patients and how do you identify, these are the things that I think are actually important, and then these [00:13:00] are the things that are really urgent and these are the things that are both.
What advice would you give.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, a a couple things. One is I think you gotta make a list, right? Because if it's just all in your head, it gets crazy noisy in your head when you're processing all that and, and you have a lot of emotions and energy and that sort of thing. So get it all out on my whiteboard or, piece of paper or a journal.
And then what I would do is I would just begin to sort of ask this question. Which of these would help our church move forward in a way that adds health and moves us all together more holistically in a direction that I feel the Lord wants us to. And then look at those things, identify those, those, you know, keystone, issues.
But then I would also look at the list and say, are there any of these that are on the list that are keeping us from taking. Action that helps us move forward, right? Are there barriers, are there roadblocks? And then I would kind of break out my list there, and then I would begin to pray about that list.
[00:14:00] And then I might also sit down with a mentor or call a friend who I, I felt like was a really good leader. And then I might talk with them about, Hey, look, here's is, I'm looking, here's where I feel like these are the important things that we need to address. Here's some other things that I feel like are roadblocks and, or what we might call dumpster fires, right?
I mean, if you've got, if you've got some dumpster fires that are like, you know, if there's something on fire, it is time to get out the fire extinguisher, right? Like, that's just what you do. You, you, and you have to run towards it. It, it reminds me, Jim, but one time I was walking out of high school, and I went to a Christian school, my last, uh, couple years of.
Of high school and a friend of mine kind of came saur in the building and said, Hey, my mom's car is on fire.
All right. That just doesn't happen very often. So, so Jimbo, I, I was at that time a custodian at the church, and so I knew where a fire extinguisher was and I, you know, I just instinctively ran, [00:15:00] pulled the fire extinguisher out, ran towards the car of the hood was up.
what had happened is she'd gotten her oil change and they forgot to replace the, the oil cap. And so
oil spilled all over the engine. Fire. A fire had started. And so Jimbo, I just put the fire out with the fire extinguisher and it wasn't a time to go. Hey, uh, we probably should call the fire department.
you know what, I've never put a car fire out. I've never, operated an extinguisher. Jimbo. It was time
to act. And occasionally what I would say is it's time to act. Now, here's the challenge. Very few things at the church that feel like dumpster fires can be met with that much urgency, right? Or that that urgent response. What would be some of those things? I mean, maybe like there's somebody that's teaching heresy in your Sunday school class. Well, that's probably an urgent matter. but you also have to approach that with caution, right?
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: there's not a lock on the door or, there's water that is leaking through the roof.
that demands an urgent right now [00:16:00] response. Right? instituting background checks for all of your nursery workers, that's an important. Almost slash urgent response, but that's gonna take you some time to navigate. So, so in the church world, it's, it, it's interesting how things that are urgent take time to respond to, uh, and so I think you've gotta use wisdom in, in doing so.
JimBo Stewart: So here's how Stephen Covey breaks down the difference between urgent and important. He says, the urgent matters are those that require immediate action. These are the visible issues that pop up and demand your attention right now. Often urgent matters come with clear consequences for not completing the task.
Urgent tasks are unavoidable. But spending too much time putting out fires can produce a great deal of stress and can result in burnout. I would say not just burnout, but you being mission shift of not being focused on what you're supposed to be focused on. Important matters on the other hand, are those that contribute to long-term goals and your [00:17:00] core values.
These items require planning thoughtful action. When you focus on important matters, you manage your time, energy, and attention rather than mindlessly. Expending these resources. What is important is subjective and depends on your own values and personal goals. No one else can define what is important to you.
and that's where I'd say for personal and that Stephen Co you talked about. in the church world, what's important is defined right, and we see it in, in the Bible and it's that we're on the biblical mission that God has given us. And, it's the trap that. Everybody that has served in a local church has probably wrestled with of man.
I signed up to make disciples and tell people about Jesus and help people fall in love with Jesus. And I'm spending my time, you know, doing all these other things, putting out these fires and dealing with these administrative tasks and All those things become so urgent, the tyranny of the urgent, and all of a sudden we feel like a slave, like, oh, I ha I have to fix all these urgent things and then I can get [00:18:00] to what's important.
And what I hear you saying, with your story of putting out the fire on the car is there are, there are moments where it is so urgent that you need to set aside the important, but if that's where you live, then something has gotten off track. Like we can't live there. Like that can't be our normal, where we're constantly dealing with urgent and rather than the important.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, if everything's urgent, nothing is. And, also if everything's important, nothing is important. So, yeah, I think you, you just have to take some breaths, maybe even get outta the church office, go to coffee shop, go to a park, just get out of the environment because sometimes even the environment, and you'll see in a church that's needed to be renewed and revitalized.
Jimbo, you might even be, you and Clifton talks about this all the time. Just the smell of an old church might just keep you in a sense of, this has gotta change.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah.
Bob Bickford: Right. And so then, you know, you just, you're like, oh man. And so get out. really think of what's important and then a, also give yourself some [00:19:00] grace and time that you just can't address everything in a short amount of time, but, Always address something.
I think in our first a hundred day days episode we talked about always be regularly changing something that leads the church towards progress. Whether it's a small thing or kind of a medium sized thing. But oftentimes we try to change those big things. Thinking that change will, that, that change will be the keystone, what's not.
It's a bunch of, it's a thousand different things that you can can change that will help the church over a long period of time.
JimBo Stewart: I'd say one of the things to consider with that as, as far as making those changes is, if you're brand new, or you're in a leadership capital deficit than, One of the important things on your list is building trust in leadership capital. And so as you make changes, it's gonna require a lot more, conversation and buy-in and partnership with.
The members of the church and then you acting solo in order to build leadership [00:20:00] capital over time and what might be helpful, I really think the suggestion you gave Bob of listing things out was really helpful. and what may even be helpful to you is list things out and then literally draw this matrix.
You can draw, you don't have to buy anything. You can draw this on a sheet of paper. You can draw it on a napkin, just four quadrants from the bottom left to bottom, to top left. Is it not important, important, the top. Left to top rise. Urgent, not urgent. We'll have a link to it in the show notes.
So you can just look up, Eisenhower Matrix and it, it literally might help you to like, take all those things in the list and then decide which quadrant do they belong in, right? is this, and so the example is that Eisenhower gives to, for you what you do, each of those, if it's important and it's urgent.
So, quadrant one. Top left. If it's important and urgent, then you do it. you, I mean, that, that's the, if it's urgent and important, then you gotta take care of it. If it's urgent and not important, you delegate it. things that, there's things that need to be done, but they don't really require you to do them.
it's kind of busy work. They don't [00:21:00] require your specific skillsets, but they're, they're urgent. It's not super important. It's best if you can delegate that and develop somebody else to be able to manage those things so you can be focused on things that are more important. so that's quadrant three.
Let's go back up to top quadrant two. I know this might be confusing, but you'll be able to see it, if it's important and not urgent. Then you schedule it. And this is, this is the kind of stuff that you set a deadline. These things, this is deep work, brings you closer to what you're trying to do. This actually gets the ball down the field.
This is your annual planning. This is your sermon prep. This is, I mean for yourself. This is physical exercise. This is, all the things we do that have long-term results, meeting our goals. And then if it's not important and it's not urgent, then you delete it. It's done. You don't, don't spend your work time doing that.
This is just distractions. and they're not even really that helpful. You know, we've talked about these types of things before, but one of the things to consider is, If you're tired, and you're exhausted and you think, oh, I'm just gonna binge watch some things on [00:22:00] Netflix, I have no problem with you watching tv.
But if that's where you're going in order to rejuvenate your energy, just scientifically, it's not gonna work. Like the research has shown us sitting and watching TV for long periods of time does not rejuvenate you and doesn't refresh your brain. and so that's something that's not important. It's not urgent, it's not helpful.
and so you delete that.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I don't think anybody ever said, man, I'm, I'm glad I wasted a whole day watching. you know, an episode of whatever, or, uh, man, I'm, I'm glad that I spent 10 hours on video games, and I, I think if you are going to those kinds of things that what we would call is to, you know, amusement time where you just click off your mind and don't do anything productive.
What I, what I would suggest is give that some, give that some thought. What, what is it about? At that activity and just not having to think about anything that I get lost in it. What is that? What am I attempting to bring into my life through that? There's a lot more helpful things that you can do, and we often have said this in the podcast.
Oftentimes, you need to work [00:23:00] hard. You need to work your body hard, you need to work your hands. You need to do something that's strenuous in order to refresh your mind. And so something passive, just sitting there receiving something, playing video games, watching tv, you know, watching movies mindlessly scrolling the internet.
That's gonna still work your mind. And it's not really gonna work your body. So you're not gonna get that refresh bump that, that you could by doing some other things, like go for a walk, man. Get out in nature, go on a hike, get a hobby, start doing something in the yard. Those sorts of things. Do something that that gives you some physical activity that will help your body replenish itself and will help your mind clear the stress chemicals that are inside your mind.
JimBo Stewart: This is good. Uh, hey guys, check the show notes. We'll have some more information there for you. Look at the Eisenhower Matrix. be thinking about what you're spending your time doing and maybe even, evaluate journal how you're sp how much of your time are you spending on things that are urgent. rather than things that are important.
I hope this is helpful. If it is, let us know, uh, in the comments. give us a review. See you guys later.
In this EP the guys talk about their travels and a bit of their troubles on the road and then pivot to discuss an important principle related to the work of Replanting-Jesus is always with you and he will deliver you from every trial and trouble.Here are a few highlights:* Troubles and challenges come in surprising ways-you want to change the bulletin and almost get fired. * Every ministry setting has its own set of challenges * Struggle and and trial are part of ministry - don't be surprised * If God can save you from your sins (and he can and does) he will deliver you from everything else
We find encouragement and hope in Paul's words:He delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will deliver us again. 2 Corinthians 1:10Get some help and hope for your web presence by contacting our good friends at One Eighty Digital. They are the exclusive sponsor of the Bootcamp and can get your church up and running with a website that will communicate clearly with your community.JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are. Back at it again. Bob. I hope you're ready for another episode of the Replant Bootcamp podcast here in Dallas. after quite an adventure to get here,
Bob Bickford: Jimbo, we have, had a few plane trips, a few hotel stays, a couple of shuttle rides. And, you know, some good meals recently, here
JimBo Stewart: Dallas. I mean, maybe other than the meals, I don't know that anything has gone the way it was
Bob Bickford: supposed
to go.
No,
JimBo Stewart: I mean, like down to like the smallest little piece, like nothing has gone the way it was actually supposed to go.
Bob Bickford: Right. So where, I can't even remember, where did this all start for us? Where did we, so I think I started my road trip back in, um, Springfield, Illinois. I was at the SB Cal, the Southern Baptist Conference of Associational leaders, and then I made my way to New Orleans.
JimBo Stewart: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Bob Bickford: Yeah.
And then we made our way to Texas.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. So I was from Jacksonville, Florida with the whole
family. Yeah. [00:01:00] Drove to Hattiesburg, Mississippi, my old stomping grounds and went to Meridian little north of there.
spoken to Association, Lauderdale Baptist Association, John Maxey. Shout
out to what he's got going there. Great stuff going on. If you want to be a replant resident. And get seminary credit Yeah. For a semester and do real work. In Meridian, Mississippi. Hit us up. We'll point you to John Maxey. from there I got to go back to Hattiesburg to my alma mater.
The college that I went to, William Carey. It was William Carey College when I attended. And, they've grown up and it's now William Carey University. Okay.
and so I got to guest lecture in a handful of classes, there and see some professors. Some professors were my professors when I was. A student there, some of the professors now, Bob, I was like their college pastor when I was in Hattiesburg,
so, wow.
Yeah. Uh, so that was fun, just connecting with, all that. So then as a family, we made it to [00:02:00]Picayune, dropped our kids off in une. Then we get to New Orleans, we do the event, the event goes Amazing. Am I a re planter? I mean, it was a really, really great event. And then we were like, all right, well we'll grab lunch at the airport and.
Head out to, To get to Dallas.
Bob Bickford: I think there was foreshadowing Jimbo when I arrived in New Orleans because I was supposed to meet you. At one of our favorite joints. New Orleans Food and
JimBo Stewart: Spirits. Yeah. And
and yeah. It started going bad there,
Bob Bickford: there. it?
I'm to blame. I'm I, it's my fault. It's all my fault. Yeah. So I showed up at the Hertz Rental
JimBo Stewart: Christmas is ruined ruin.
Bob Bickford: Rent Jimbo.
So I, I've rented enough Hertz cars, over the past year that I am now in the President's circle. Right. So there's gold. Then there's Five Star,
JimBo Stewart: which is what I am,
Bob Bickford: And then there's President's Circle.
JimBo Stewart: You've always been
better than me,
Bob Bickford: right. And I think there's probably one more above that, but I
JimBo Stewart: know
what it's, is there
Bob Bickford: really?
I think so.
Wow.
I don't know what it is, but anyway, so I'm supposed to be able to bypass the line, so I, it's late. We get in late, you know, we, we [00:03:00] rush over there and Jimbo, it took me an hour and a half to get my bags and to finally get to a car. And Jimbo, do you know how long it took us to fly to New Orleans?
Barely. Barely an
JimBo Stewart: hour.
Yeah, like an hour.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was a longer process to get your rental
Yes.
Than to actually get into the air. fly, which that science still doesn't
make
sense to
me.
And somehow get there. Look man, this is, this is how it goes sometimes,
Bob, right?
This is, this is how life goes.
And I think part of this is maybe the Lord, reminding us of the difficulties of replanting, cuz we are in different seats now.
Mm-hmm.
And we're not in the full day-to-day grind. that will grind you to a halt of replanting work in all the crazy things that go wrong when you're replanting a church.
So it's like the Lord's like, Hey, just, hey, don't forget chaos is inevitable.
Bob Bickford: He just gave us a little dose, right? So, All right. So anyway, [00:04:00] we, we show up and because there's storms in the Midwest, we're all delayed. Like Barb is flying back to St. Louis, she's delayed. You and I are delayed. But even before then, Jimbo, I think our flight got canceled cuz we were supposed to go from New Orleans to Atlanta it got canceled.
And then they were gonna route us through Detroit Rock City. And I don't think you were very happy about the reroute.
JimBo Stewart: No, I'm, see, I'm sitting here thinking, all right, look, if we're gonna probably miss our flight in Detroit and then sleep in Detroit, I would rather sleep in New Orleans. it's my favorite city in the world. So if we slept in New Orleans, I could get dad dogs or something like that.
Or more charg, charcoaled oysters, or something like, you know, we would've had a good time. I could see some old friends. Yeah. But no, no, we had to fly to get from New Orleans to Dallas. We had to fly from New Orleans to Detroit.
And, and then, so there's this tight, tight connection.
Bob Bickford: Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: But it takes like 40 minutes of boarding, typically 30 to 40 minutes.
Right. And then, and before the, before the plane [00:05:00] takes off. And so we land and I run faster than I have run
in
years. I mean, I'm hoofing it and they, they tell you to get to this point and you can take a train and I'm hoofing it and I'm, I'm out the train and then it says it's gonna be like four minutes till the train gets there.
I was like, I can't, I can't wait four minutes spare. We
don't have four minutes to spare. So we hoof it and I get there in time to get on the plane, but there's no gate agent. And then when he finally comes out the door that like, I, I'm like, as as large a man as I am.
There's no, I'm sure I looked like I just ran across an airport.
I'm,
I'm I'm heaving. I'm almost dry heaving. And the guy comes out and I go, Hey, can, can I get on the plane? And he goes, no, not. I'm so sorry. Not just, no.
Bob Bickford: Well, we told them, we told our agents that we were, uh, on the way and so they knew we were detained.
[00:06:00] And they should have waited on us. Yeah. But they didn't.
JimBo Stewart: This is life, man. This is how it is. And then from there we finally, so, n there all, you know, we are not gonna tell you the whole story, but listen, it ends. I definitely did not think this story's gonna end with me sleeping in Detroit. And I was not happy about it. And so then we were like, all right, let's just get in the shuttle. Let's just get to the hotel and let's take a nap. Cuz essentially we had time for a nap
So we called for the shuttle
45 minutes
later after three other phone calls, no shuttle. And so some other lady took pity on us and, and, and like maybe lost her job
Bob Bickford: because
JimBo Stewart: she drove us to the, To the hotel, and I finally got sleep in a hotel room that smelled like cigarettes and the air conditioner sounded like it was dying,
Bob Bickford: man. I had a, I think my room was newly constructed, but my air conditioner was no better.
Yeah.
So maybe they don't need a seas up in Detroit. Rock City. I'm not sure,
JimBo Stewart: man. When you hear this [00:07:00] story, you may be thinking. Why, why am I still listening to this
Bob Bickford: podcast?
JimBo Stewart: Or hopefully, hopefully that's not what you're thinking.
Hopefully that that's not exactly what comes to your
Bob Bickford: mind,
You're thinking where is the nugget of truth?
JimBo Stewart: But isn't this what ministry is like sometimes? Yes. I mean, it's, have you, Bob, you ever had those days or weeks or months in ministry?
Bob Bickford: Years, Jimbo
JimBo Stewart: years
where
it's like, Everything. It just seems like everything goes wrong. Yeah.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. Yeah. You throw your hands up and go, well, of course. Now this just makes complete sense.
JimBo Stewart: I mean, it makes sense now that, that, that would happen. Of course, everything would
Bob Bickford: fall
apart
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Of
course. I would split my pants in the
pulpit
Bob Bickford: Right?
JimBo Stewart: now.
look, you, you've got, you, you have a Bible passage when we should probably get to the Bible pretty quick. at
Bob Bickford: Let's do it. Just gotta resurrect there. Save this thing or something
JimBo Stewart: you have a passage to to, to encourage [00:08:00] us.
Bob Bickford: I do second Corinthians. So I give a talk at MI Re planter event that talks about counting the cost and replanting. And here's the reality, Jimbo. I think a lot of us get into ministry and we think I am here.
I've answered the Lord's call. They have voted on me, and a high percentage of folks have have believed that the Lord is calling me. Yeah. To pastor them. So they're welcoming me to be their pastor. Yeah. It will all go well. Right. That's what, that's
one thing.
Things, yeah.
And then we change the bulletin and we almost get fired.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
no, I love the way you always word that when I've heard you say it before, you'll say, you know, every brand new pastor thinks he's gonna change the world, and then he changes the bulletin and he almost gets
Bob Bickford: fired. I know. And that's literally true for me. But, so I, you know, I was in the midst of a great struggle, uh, as a re planter and, second Corinthians one, was a passage that really.
Really was so helpful to me, and in particular, I won't go all through it, but verse 10 in chapter one of second Corinthians talks about the [00:09:00] work of the Lord in difficult times. And I, I think just three simple thoughts about this one. Paul says, let me read the whole verse and then let's go back and, and we'll pick up the three sections.
So he says this, he delivered us from such a deadly peril and he will deliver us. On him. We have set our hope that he will deliver us again. So three important things there about Paul, writing about his time and Ephesus where he felt like he'd received the sentence of death, where he felt like he couldn't take one more thing, that it was just, if anything else happened, he was just gonna, it was gonna be over, right?
Yeah. That's what he was facing. Yeah. So, Paul says this, he delivered us from such a deadly peril. So he's, he has perspective on what happened. In his life, how God worked in the past. He delivered him from one of the most significant struggles that he'd ever faced. Yeah. Where he thought it was the end.
So when we sit down and have perspective, we can look back to the point of [00:10:00] our salvation Jimbo, and this is, I think we often overlook this, if God can save me from my sins, there's nothing that he can't save me from.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: Right. So this reminds me of, there's a, a pastor I, I served with, uh, and he was from Texas, and, uh, he called everybody bud, right?
I mean just for bud. Your bud, your bud. And so he would say this when I would be, you know, I was a young 30 something kind of, associate with him in the church. This is the church that I sang butterfly kisses in on Sunday. So I was his, associate and I did worship and some other things. And I'd be twisted out about something, Jimbo, I'd be concerned about this or that, and he'd go, bud, lemme tell you something.
If Jesus can take care of your salvation, there ain't nothing he can't take care of.
He'd just say that, right? Yeah. You know what? That made me feel angry. It's just like, Man, come on. I wanna be fired up about this and I want to be upset about it and we gotta address this. And most guys in the thirties are like that.
So, so he would just say that and it would [00:11:00] just remind me, Jimbo, that if I will just think about what Jesus has done for me, he's delivered me from the most significant sentence that's ever been pronounced on my life. And that was sin and my deadness in sin.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
And it's so encouraging to think about the fact that when it seems like everything has gone wrong, Jesus has never surprised. Mm-hmm.
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm.
JimBo Stewart: Right? He's never, he's never like we are sitting back, ringing his head, go, ringing his hands, ringing his head, pulling his hair out, going.
What, what do I do? I don't know what to do right now. Everything seems to be going, he, he's never has that moment.
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm.
JimBo Stewart: and he's interceding for us and he loves us and he cares for us. And he's already defeated, like you said, the, the greatest obstacle we will ever have is our sin. And so that, I love that concept Because it, it makes, it makes those things that felt so big. it, you see how small
Bob Bickford: they
really Yeah.
Puts 'em in proper perspective.
So he, [00:12:00] he delivered us from, a deadly peril. Right.
So yeah.
Then, then Paul moves from the past and he talks about the and he says this, he will deliver Right. So as he's writing this Jimbo, he's, he's still enduring something. We're not sure.
What it is he doesn't specifically say in this passage, he talks about his perspective on the past. Here's what happened to me in the past. I was in a great struggle in Ephesus and I thought I was gonna die. And it was, uh, uh, the shadow of death. You know, it wasn't the real thing and, you know, all this kind of stuff.
So he's really struggling and, and all that. But he said, he delivered to me from that. And then whatever he's going through now, it might not be as significant, but he says he will deliver us. And so there's this present idea and hope that carries him. In his present struggle, in his present pain. And so one of the things I would just say to the, the bootcamper out there, the re planter, the pastor, the renewal pastor, your struggle right now, the one you are enduring right God will see you through it. [00:13:00]
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: He'll see you through it. Now, deliverance doesn't always look like how we want it to look. No. Right. but,
JimBo Stewart: and that's hard. Yeah. It
is hard. And, and I think we need to acknowledge that's, that's hard sometimes. Sometimes it doesn't go the way you want it to go. And it, and it, and it goes in a really painful way.
Bob Bickford: Right. And it, and it's just some, it's part of it, right. If, if God operated how we wanted him to operate, he wouldn't be God and we would be Right. So it's like God's gonna do what God's gonna do and God usually does something different than what we expect.
Right? Yeah. And when he does. When, when our desires line up with Gods and God bless us, it's, it's really something great. But I would just say to the person who's really struggling right now, just be confident this, that the Lord delivered you in the past. He will deliver you from whatever you're facing.
Yeah. Right now. And then he moves to the future. And I think this is really important for us to, to have this future perspective. It says this on him. We have set our hope that he will deliver us again. Right? So we got past, present, and then Paul points to [00:14:00] the future. Here's the deal. if you are not currently in a season of struggle or experiencing hardships, just wait.
it's gonna come around. But let your past, your past, past your, your historic past. Let your recent past. And the Lord's work in those things and bringing you through those things and delivering you from those, let those two things inform your certain future that you will face something that will be challenging to you in but the Lord will deliver you.
And Paul says, I, we set our hope on him that he will deliver and our hope is not that. after a couple of years into the replant or the renewal effort, that, that everything will be great and we won't experience problems. Right. If that's your hope, that's a false hope That ain't gonna happen, right?
Because you're gonna experience struggle. Yes. If, if you're hoping for next week that it's going to be better or next year even, that it's gonna be better, man, that's, that's kind of a false hope. That's, there's no guarantee. Yeah. But if you set your hope on Christ, what you're [00:15:00] gonna understand is that whatever you face, he will deliver you.
And I think that most of us hope in a better week, a better year, a better season, a, better choice for our church with this decision, et cetera. And so instead of placing our hope in Jesus, we place our hope in a lot of things that really disappoint
JimBo Stewart: Well, and here's the, you know, when you, when you put your hope in your circumstances, you, you have to remember, we live in a world where all of creation has been subjected to futility Sure. As it tells us And so part of that is this side of glory you'll never find perfect of anything. Right. You'll never find the perfect circumstance. You'll never have enough money. You'll never accomplish that next goal and it be enough. You'll never reach the summit. You'll never get, this is where, you know, God has put eternity into our hearts. There's always this like, yeah, but it could be just a little bit better.
It
could
be. and and the thing is we don't even [00:16:00] realize how much better it could be. That, I mean, the best that this world has to offer pales in comparison
to,
you know, sometimes when. People will ask you, you know, you get a seminary degree, family members will be like, oh, what's heaven? You know, they'll have all these theological questions You know, what is heaven gonna be like? Exactly. And I'm always like, I don't know. I like, I have, I really don't know what it's gonna be like. Exactly. I just know it's gonna be way better than here. haha. it's, I, I don't know exactly how everything plays out. Uh, I, except for the fact that it's way better than here because we're not, Fighting against the sinfulness of our own hearts and the sinfulness of this world all the time anymore.
And we get the unfiltered, just full presence of God. and so that idea of he will deliver us, yes. Part of that sometimes is like the eternal deliverance. I mean, sometimes that's the only deliverance [00:17:00]that's gonna be available with cancer sometimes or things like that. and that's hard, but. We have to keep a kingdom mindset of, Hey, this is temporary and I have a role here while I'm here and I get to honor the Lord, and I get to find my contentment in him because this is not my home.
And he does have a future hope for me, and he's gonna get me out of what I'm going through right now. I will never find my peace in my But I can always, regardless of my circumstances, find my peace in him. For me, one of my passages was Philippians four. And, and not just that I can do all things to Christ, but the, the context of the, particularly I loved the phrase, I have found the secret to being content in all And it's whether things are going well or going bad, or you're sleeping in Detroit,
like
Bob Bickford: waiting on shuttle
JimBo Stewart: or waiting on a shuttle. our strength is in Christ. And so boot camper,
maybe
you're going through a [00:18:00] really hard season and it's so hard that our travel woes sound like nothing. the Lord will deliver you. He has delivered you before and he will deliver
Bob Bickford: And I would add simply this, that, your suffering is the course that the Lord is taking you through in order for you to know that truth.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, absolutely.
Bob Bickford: other way. And so don't despise suffering. Embrace it for what it is as a work of the Lord to sanctify you.
And to redeem you. And that's what Paul says about suffering in SEC Corinthians one. Why did this happen? Just cuz that's all. That's the big question. Why? And Paul says this happened so that we would not depend upon ourselves. Yep. But on him because he raises
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
It's one of those things I think I'm so grateful that we talk about on this podcast. So we've talked about it other times of it is often in the hardest seasons of ministry that the Lord is doing the greatest work on your
soul.
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm.
JimBo Stewart: I know that to be true for me. I [00:19:00] think I knew it theoretically, but I know it experientially and I can, I can tell you those seasons where it's like the Lord used that as, that refining fire to, to burn out idolatry in my heart where I was, depending on me, where I, I wanted to be the savior.
I wanted to be the one that fixed it. I wanted to be the one that rescued the church, and it was in that suffering when I realized. I can't do this. I mean, I, I am not smart enough. I am not strong enough. I do not have enough perseverance. I do not have enough ability. I can't seem to get things right. I keep making people mad.
I keep making wrong decisions. And I, I mean, it was, it's like I had, I could've just let all that go. I mean, I could've certainly, I guess theoretically just laid that at the Lord's feet at any point and then, you know, let him just lead everything. I wasn't spiritual enough already, and I, I, I needed to go through, I mean, I've had to go through a lot of those seasons, I think Bob, [00:20:00] where, where the Lord's had to really just chisel some stuff outta me, and I legitimately am so grateful for that.
I look back and I have so much joy knowing how much more I feel like I know who Jesus is. Is and how much more peace I have and, and just overall because of my understanding of my role and his role and that, he's the guy and I'm just here to serve in whatever way God has for me to serve.
And I don't have to be the savior. I don't have to be the smartest guy in the room. I don't have to be the guy who worked harder than everybody else, right? I don't have, I don't, I'm not gonna earn any of my worth and value in any of those things. My identity. Truly is more and more I'm realizing it really is.
I'm, I am an adopted, redeemed, loved son of God That. doesn't deserve it. I love the, the song that Isaac Woodward led at. Am I Replant Our Conference? You know, that was the, I can't remember the words exactly, but the, something [00:21:00] about our worth and our unworthiness, like these two things that we declare, like we, one is that we have so much worth because we are gods, but also we are unworthy because we are sinful.
But he has overcome because he is overcome that we can hope. No matter what our
Bob Bickford: I just say if you're bootcamper out there and it's been hard and uh, you need a place to connect or to chat me and connect with us, drops the line.
Send us a voicemail. We'd love to be able to appoint you to some encouraging people and resources that can help you get through. And just remember that God is going to deliver you from this. This is not
JimBo Stewart: Amen.
Welcome back Bootcampers! The guys were in the Big D (Dallas TX) for an event and had the opportunity to visit with the one and only, Dr. Kyle Bueermann from some other podcast. He dropped by to discuss some key thoughts from his book, And They Devoted, on discipleship. Listen in and be encouraged.Here are some key points in the podcast* Discipleship is often assumed in the church-you have to develop intentionality and strategy * Focus on the basics: Scripture, Fellowship, Worship, Prayer, Evangelism * Start by discipling a few others, then releasing them to disciple others * Every discipleship process has to be reproducible-it can't depend upon you * This is not a fast process it takes time (think years)
Keep listening for more great insights from Kyle and comments form Jimbo and Bob.Mentioned in the show notes:* Pappasito's Cantina * Twisted Root Burger Company * Not Another Baptist Podcast
We want to hear from you, great and loyal Bootcamp Listener! Drop us a line, a voicemail with your comments, thoughts and even favorite restaurants!After you comment, checkout our great sponsor, One Eighty Digital. They are the source for help with your website and digital presence-they can get you up and running in no time and connecting with your community in an authentic way.JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are. Back at it again. Bob, I hope you're ready for the next episode on not another bootcamp podcast.
Bob Bickford: I see what you did there, Jimbo.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, we're excited. We've got a fun guest and a fun friend, Dr. Kyle Bierman is with us in the house today.
Kyle Bueermann: Hey, it's great to be back on the bootcamp. It's been a bit. That's a lot of bees. It's been been a
Bob Bickford: while. Well,
I am
Kyle Bueermann: Bob
Bickford. Bob
JimBo Stewart: Bickford. Bob Bickford. Bob Bickford. Beautiful. Uh, what is it? The beautiful bob.
Beautiful
Bob Bickford: Below average butterfly singing kisses.
Bob
Bickford.
JimBo Stewart: butter butterfly singing kisses, butterfly kisses. Singing.
Yeah. I, There
you sorry. Yeah, we still gotta get that on the podcast at some point.
Just a, just an audio snippet of you singing a little bit of
Bob Bickford: there's no audio, there is no video. There's only this story that I've
shared
with
you.
JimBo Stewart: Hi. I mean, I, at some point I'm gonna need more, but we'll take what we can get. Hey, if you hear a little rattle,
that's
our PTOs [00:01:00] cups with our waters so that we could stay quenched while we have this podcast with you.
Cuz when you're in Texas, you have to
stop at
Bob Bickford: Suda. Yeah, we need to break that down for the listeners. So, the listeners that
are
not. In the great state of Texas or have not been through the Great Nation
of
Texas.
There are a
few restaurants that you should check out, but one definitely
is
PTOs. Yeah,
Their fajitas
are amazing. They marinate their steak in Dr. Pepper
JimBo Stewart: and you know, and if you've never heard that the first time you hear that
mm-hmm.
There's a moment where you go, I wonder if that's as good as that sounds. Yes, it is. It's better.
Yes. Yes.
Kyle Bueermann: Yes.
Bob Bickford: And
the butter sauce that you get at PTOs
is
amazing
too.
JimBo Stewart: I mean, pretty much anything marinated in Dr. Pepper and dipped in butter is gonna
Bob Bickford: be
good.
Right? So, well, Jimbo, I'm gonna challenge you on that. Beets,
I
do not
like beets marinated in Dr. Pepper and dipped in
butter.
I'm
not
going
for
that
challenge
accepted.
JimBo Stewart: [00:02:00] I'm
gonna figure
out how to
make it
Kyle Bueermann: that
that needs to happen
JimBo Stewart: in
an episode.
Kyle Bueermann: Yeah,
where you you get beats marinated in Dr.
Pepper and
dip
em in butter and just record
the
experience.
in
Bob Bickford: Yeah, it'd be like your hot chip challenge.
JimBo Stewart: On
another,
another not
Kyle Bueermann: I'm
out. I've
retired from
that.
All right.
I had a, had a couple of bad
experiences
and
I'm
out
on
the
one chip challenge.
JimBo Stewart: well, hey, if you don't know who, Kyle Bierman is.
Kyle, introduce yourself a little bit. Tell us just a little bit
about
you.
Kyle Bueermann: Yeah, so, I'm the rural guy for, for the, replant team. And married to Michelle. We have two
kids,
Noah
and
Hailey. And,
JimBo Stewart: Hold on. Is that your official title?
The
Rural
Kyle Bueermann: I,
so
I
think my, official title is
Rural
Specialist for
Replant
Strategies.
JimBo Stewart: Oh,
okay. Yeah,
I
like
that. Yeah.
Well,
I
didn't
know
that
was
his
father. That was,
Kyle Bueermann: you're
his boss's. That's based on the, uh, the job description that I got from you.
I,
I believe.
Oh,
alright. Don't have to
look
that
up
But yeah, it's, so,
it's
easier
just
to
say
JimBo Stewart: wait, you got
Kyle Bueermann: real guy what you got job description [00:03:00]
with,
roles and responsibilities and everything,
man.
It's
bullet points. yeah. So I'm married to Michelle. We have, two kids, Noah Haley, and we live in Lubbock, Texas. Where there is not a papa
CTOs,
believe
it
or
not. Yeah.
So
Bob Bickford: there's however,
Kyle Bueermann: a
twisted
root,
Oh,
oh,
Bob Bickford: burger place. But,
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. uh,
this
is
not
a
food
episode,
so
we should, every, every episode is at least a
little bit
Kyle Bueermann: of
food
episode.
But you're not Jo if, if you are anywhere near a twisted root,
you
need
to
give it
a shot.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. So a couple good recommendations there for you, Papas twisted root. Hey, so not only do you work for the replant team, not only are you married and have children, but you also have, another podcast that you're on.
Yeah. And you have another podcast of which you are like, what? The executive producer something?
Is that the title? If it were, if
we're just
making up
titles
Kyle Bueermann: today. Yeah.
You
sure. The, the executive producer, which
means
I
pushed the record
button.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. All right. So
tell us about
those
other
Kyle Bueermann: Yeah, so the, the first podcast is, not another Baptist podcast [00:04:00] with, Matt Hensley that
we've
hosted for
the last
five
and
a
half
years
I
think it
is now.
Bob Bickford: Wow.
JimBo Stewart: how
many episodes
is
that?
Kyle Bueermann: we're into the, we're not quite at 200 yet. I think I saw or we're not quite at 300. I think
I
saw
2
89 or something like that.
Yeah.
Is
where we are. and then, yeah, I'm the executive producer on the new, revitalize and replant with Mark Clifton, with special guest, uh, mark Hallick and hosted
by
Dan Hurst. And, and I actually
in
an episode
that'll come
up.
sometime
in May or
June,
like
I
actually
get
to make an
appearance on
the Ooh,
for, for, one line, it's fam Mark asked
me
a
question
and
had
me step
onto
the
mic.
JimBo Stewart: but now we've gotta see
if
it makes it through
Kyle Bueermann: Yeah, that's
right.
So yeah. I, I mean, I can make up whatever
title
I'm, I'm
the
guy
who
pushes
the
record
button
on
that
Bob Bickford: one. Well,
he does, he,
you
do a little
more
than that.
You
wrangle the
talents and
you Coordinate,
Kyle Bueermann: co
getting everybody
together. You help
content. Yeah.
And then, have
to,
you know,
make them notes of, you
know,
mark
Kaft, we gotta take that out
[00:05:00] here.
And
JimBo Stewart: Oh, that's a lot of fun. Yeah,
that's good. All right. So a couple other things to
know about
Kyle
though
is he is
also
an author.
Right. So we've got a few things out there with your name.
Yeah.
That's the
author
line.
Talk
to
us
about those
real quick.
Kyle Bueermann: Yeah. So the, the first book, uh, was one that I co-wrote with Matt Hensley called, replanting
Rural Churches.
And that book
is
all of
about 60 pages. so
we, we,
set
out to write a book
for
people who don't
like
to read.
And,
it's
done
pretty well actually.
So I guess that
that
hit a niche.
and then
JimBo Stewart: do you have anybody go,
man,
I hated
reading
until
Kyle Bueermann: read that
Bob Bickford: one.
JimBo Stewart: and
Kyle Bueermann: No, but I mean, we have
had
some
books say, I
don't like to
read books,
but I read
your book,
because Oh,
good.
We got, I got it in the
mail and I
realized,
JimBo Stewart: oh,
Kyle Bueermann: it's
like a
pamphlet,
so I
can
read that.
That's
JimBo Stewart: fine.
Kyle Bueermann: Um,
JimBo Stewart: and
Kyle Bueermann: then,
then the book we're talking about today. I, uh, reworked my Doctor of Ministry project and turned that into a book called
They
Devoted Themselves
based
on Acts two. then Hensley and I wrote
a
Christmas devotional
[00:06:00] just
in 2020
cuz
we
weren't
doing anything else with
our time.
So, hey,
let's
just, let's
put together a real
simple
Christmas
devotional.
Called
the
people
who
Walked
in
Darkness. yeah, I got a
Bob Bickford: And
there's another
book called Not Another
Heresy.
Kyle Bueermann: Yes, there is. Could
you
Bob Bickford: explain
that book to
us?
Kyle Bueermann: that is,
you, you're gonna pay about 20
bucks
for that, and you're gonna
be sorely disappointed.
It's a,
it's a,
it's
a
$20
paper weight is what it is.
So
it's, um,
yeah, not another heresy,
a
comprehensive guide to.
Like
object
lessons about
the Trinity or something like that.
And that are
not
heretical and it's eight Yes. That are not here. Non heretical object lessons
for
the Trinity
and
it's
800 pages
and
Amazon
would not let
us just
do blank pages.
Okay.
So
every page
has
one sentence.
There
are none.
Period.
It's 800
pages of that.
Wow.
It's,
I mean, and it's
the, the largest,
book
format
size
that
we could
get
on
Amazon.
Kindle
Direct. Okay.
Have you've sold
[00:07:00] some
Actually
we
have,
I
dunno how
or
what.
Disney
Bob Bickford: year? Is
that
it?
Kyle Bueermann: and, and Hensley. I remember when he put it up there, he made it like, as
cheap
as
possible for that
size
And
it came out
at like 17 or
$18. Oh no. Yeah. And I do have one on
my
shelf.
it looks really impressive. it's just
a
fun novelty so.
You
know,
if
you
want
something
on your
shelf
that
looks
really good,
JimBo Stewart: yeah.
Or,
you
looks like a really big, thick book. And you,
you know,
what you do is you'd
be like, oh yeah,
this is the
book
I read
this
week.
Yeah,
that's right. And you just show the
Kyle Bueermann: of it
Bob Bickford: your life. yeah, this
JimBo Stewart: is the kind of book I
read
in a
week.
Bob Bickford: It's
just
a
little
bit
longer
than Replant Roadmap by
Kyle Bueermann: Markel. Yeah,
JimBo Stewart: that's
right.
Yeah,
that's
right.
Just
a bit.
That's close.
All right, well
give us
an
overview of they devoted themselves.
Actually, you know
what?
Because I know how hard you worked on a doctoral doctoral degree. Like why that, why,
why was
that
the
subject
of
your doctoral
research?
Kyle Bueermann: So
I came across
this
[00:08:00] passage, acts 2 42
through 47,
back
when
I
was a
youth minister. I, I
was,
I
was
at a
new church,
this would've been like 2007.
So
I
was 23.
Came
into a new church
and and was kind of exploring what
to
do and
came
across
this
study.
And
this
is
gonna age myself here, Bob.
Bob Bickford: you're
saying
that
to
the old
Kyle Bueermann: I know guy,
but
I came across
this study that
was
put
out
by
Simply
Youth
Ministry.
And
Doug Fields.
Yeah, Doug. All right. Yeah, and
it was called Church as
it should Be.
It
was
a
study
of
the book
of
Acts,
like
a six
week
kind of
overview
of the
book
of
Acts.
Bob Bickford: That
is
a
very youth
minister
Kyle Bueermann: title.
For
a book.
Yes. Yeah.
and so like I bought this package series, from Simply Youth Ministry, and
I think
it
was
the
second or third,
maybe the second,
lesson
in that,
in
that
series was on Acts 2 42 through 47. And so the context
of
that
is,
it's
the passage that comes right after Pentecost,
right?
So
Pentecost Peter preaches,
3000
people
are saved.
And
then you [00:09:00] get this
passage
in
verses 42
through
47 that
just kind of
explain
what
the early church did,
how, how
they,
how
they
went about
their daily lives
as followers
of Christ. And so
in
2007, like
I was still
working
on
my master's degree
And
I
just remember thinking, man, if, if
I ever.
Write a
book.
It
would
probably
be on this passage. Like, I, I
just
want
to
dive into this passage. Well, when I got
into
my
demonn and started
getting
closer to
my project,
it
dawned
on
me.
This
is
basically a book
that, that
I'm
gonna
have
to be working on,
and
can
I
take
the principles
from
that
passage
and
turn
that into a discipleship
project.
And,
uh, so
that's the, that's the direction that
I went with
it.
And
yeah.
you
know,
I had to
do all the
academic, had
to do like a teaching series at the
church,
and
so
I
was able to develop kind
of study guides based
off
of
that and
some
questions that
made
their
way into the end of each chapter
of
the book.
And then once I
was
done
with my dmn, I
had
all
this
research
that
I'd already put
together
and I said
I could
fairly
simply
take
this and
[00:10:00] de.
Aise.
JimBo Stewart: de
Bob Bickford: ized.
JimBo Stewart: de
Kyle Bueermann: Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: Dumb
it.
No,
that's not de
Kyle Bueermann: I Marty,
I
a tiny restaurant called
Bob Bickford: De
JimBo Stewart: the,
Bob Bickford: Ice.
Kyle Bueermann: May,
may, may,
you know,
JimBo Stewart: take, take
Kyle Bueermann: like all the statistics, uh,
a
lot of
the statistics
and
stuff
that
you
have
to
have for a,
yeah.
For, For,
a,
an
academic
project.
Yeah.
And
just make it a
basic
book
on
discipleship.
And,
uh,
so
that's
what
I did
and,
pretty, pretty
happy
with
the
way that
it
turned
out.
All in all,
Bob Bickford: you
know,
one
of the
things
we
realize
when we start
working
with declining
churches, all
three of
us have
been
part of that. As a
replant
team,
we'll
go
and
consult a, dying church.
It
seems like
discipleship
is assumed.
Yeah.
it's
mostly
absent.
Would you say that
is
true,
Kyle?
And
then
how
does what
what you
studied.
Challenge
churches
to
consider
engaging
in
discipleship
practices
and
patterns?
Kyle Bueermann: Yeah,
I,
I,
I
think you're exactly right in that
[00:11:00] when,
when
you
say discipleship is this assumed, because what we saw for years and
years through, you know, growing what
I
saw
growing
up
in
children's
ministry
and
RAs
and
youth
ministry,
you came
to faith
in Christ.
We're baptized
and
then
it
was
almost
like, okay, here's the slate of activities that we have.
you're gonna
do these things on Sunday morning, you're
gonna
be involved in a, in
a Sunday
school
class.
you're
gonna be
be
involved in something on Wednesday
nights.
And through those things,
we
think you're gonna grow in your
relationship
with
Christ.
Mm-hmm.
and so
it was, it was,
assumed, but
there wasn't.
I
think
you're
right
in that
there wasn't
a,
like, real
strategy
to the
way
that
those things were done. and
I
mean, I
probably fell
into
that trap
when
I
was
a
youth
minister as well.
You
know, we,
you, you
get bogged down
in,
into
the weekly routine of
we
gotta
do
Sunday morning
routine, I gotta
do
Wednesday night routine.
and
and through
that
I
think
our,
our students will be discipled, And
that's not the
way the early church went about it, right? I
mean, they,
they
act Acts 2
42
through
47
tells us that they
did certain [00:12:00] things
and, but it was an, it was a daily experience. It wasn't just a,
they showed
up
at
the
temple for
an hour on Wednesday nights and checked that off their weekly
to-do
list. They, they
were
involved in
each other's
lives.
It
was a
robust
discipleship experience,
That I
don't
think
we've
replicated all
that
well
in
the
21st
century.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I, I've heard it said that we have reduced the great commission to the functional great commission of going to all the world make more worship attenders, baptizing 'em in the name of small groups and teaching
them to
volunteer.
A few times a month. And then that's
ministry
and Yeah.
And then that's okay. Now you're a disciple. Right. If
you,
ultimately
what
we, what
we're
communicating when we operate that
way is
you
are
an
effective disciple if you serve this organization Right. And keep its programs running. Yeah. Right. And, what
you're proposing
is, is a much different,
Concept.
Yeah.
Of discipleship. [00:13:00] So talk to us about, especially for our primary audience, is smaller churches, in
need of replanting or in the process of replanting or in need of revitalization. what are the basics kind of, that we can glean out of this that are, are doable Because cultures
so
different than it was during the first century church.
Right? You, you know, you had a little bit more flexibility in your time and
less.
Things going on. And so, you know, you could do this a little more than you can now, at least as far as
easier.
So
what
are some
of
the
highlights
of
some
of the
concepts
that our listeners need to think
about,
in
applying
this
to
discipleship
in
their
churches?
Kyle Bueermann: Yeah.
so
I think the,
the
big
topics
that
you can pull out
of
Acts two are, are
the big
takeaways, right? So, so, so
Acts
2
42
through 47
just
starts
and it
says
they devoted themselves to,
and
then it
lists some things that
they
devoted themselves to, and
it, and
it goes through some
of
the ways
that
they devoted themselves to
these
things. And so, There
are six
kind
of
primary chapters in the books. They [00:14:00] devoted themselves to Christ.
That's
the
first thing,
right?
If you're
to
be a follower
of
Christ
is
to
be devoted to him.
Yeah.
And then these other things follow out, flow
out
of that.
Then
they devoted themselves
to
scripture,
to
fellowship, to prayer, to worship,
and
to evangelism.
I mean, if
you
go
back
in
SBC
history,
these are, were called
the five
functions of
the church,
right?
I mean
these mm-hmm.
I,
I didn't
reinvent
these
concepts
at
all.
These
are basics, but
I think
there's,
something to be
said for
revisiting
these
very basic
things.
Yeah. And, And,
how they're played
out.
and, and I
think that's a key too.
There are all kinds,
there's
all
kinds
of discipleship material
out
there.
There are
all kinds of discipleship
strategies.
You
don't have to overcomplicate
it.
Discipleship,
even
robust
discipleship
does not
have
to be complicated.
It
can be simple.
but
you
do
need to
think
through,
okay, what, what do we
want
a
follower of Christ
who spends 3,
5,
7, 9, 10 years at
our church?
What
do
we
want
them to look like [00:15:00] as
they
spend
time,
as
they
take
part
in
the programs that we
have?
What,
how, how
do we
want
their
faith to
be
shaped
because
they're
a part
of
our
local
church?
Bob Bickford: So
Kyle, one
of
the
challenges of a
Norma
size church
is that the, the pastor who
has
a
heart for discipleship
and
wants to define what
a
disciple is like you've mentioned,
Who does
he
do that with? Does
he
just declare, here's what
a
disciple looks like? Does he
preach through
a
series
of
scripture?
Does
he work with
lay leaders who are in, in charge, you know,
with
kids
areas and
students
and
adults
and senior adults and couples and
those
sorts
of
things.
How do,
how
do
you
develop
a
picture
of
what a
disciple
looks
like?
Kyle Bueermann: Yeah. So
I
think
it, it can take place in all of those things. I mean, you can start
the
process with
a
sermon series
that
explains
kind of, Hey, here's
what
discipleship looks
like in the New
Testament. I
think where
especially smaller church pastors and, and that's all I've ever experienced is [00:16:00] smaller church.
So
I,
I'm
saying this,
As
a criticism of of myself and, and,
and what
I did.
I
think
sometimes
we
can
get so busy
that we
will
say,
Hey,
I'm
gonna
start
with
the
sermon series
and
then I have some
other
things
that I
would like
to
build off of this.
But
you get so busy doing
the.
Just
week to week
ministry that
you
never move beyond
that
sermon series.
Mm-hmm.
And
so you've
kind
of
planted this
idea of, hey,
here's, here's
what a
disciple
looks like. We're gonna take this a
little bit deeper. And then
you
never make
it
to the deeper.
So
you can start it with a
sermon series
and
plant that idea
in
some
people's
heads,
but
it's gotta go beyond that. And
so I think,
you know, for
me,
when,
when
I
was pastoring,
one of
the
things
that
I
think
I
did
well
was
pouring into.
some young men
in
like
one-on-one settings,
right?
So
beyond
just the
Sunday morning
gathering,
getting
guys
whether it
was breakfast or coffee in
the
afternoon or whenever
they
were
available
and
and walking
through
some of these
same
concepts,
because
[00:17:00] you've
gotta start somewhere. And so I would say, you know, you could use
a
sermon
series
to
launch into that
and say, Hey,
if
you
are interested in moving forward,
Talk
to
me
and,
let's
begin going deeper. And then
you
develop,
I
ideally
you
develop
some
folks
who can
then turn
around
and
pour
into others
and can
pour
into others. And that's,
if
you're
familiar with, Robert Coleman and Master
Plan
of
Evangelism,
that's
kind
of
the
pattern
that
he,
that,
that
he
talks
about Jesus developing
is mm-hmm.
Spending
time with people.
And
then
releasing them
to to pour into other people as well.
the
key
to any
discipleship process
is it's
gotta
be
reproducible.
And
you
as
the pastor cannot be
the
only one that's doing it.
It's,
it's never gonna grow.
If,
if that's how you're gonna become
the
person
that
everyone comes
to with
their,
with
all
their stuff.
You've
gotta hand
that disciple making off
and
that
takes
a long
time.
I
mean,
you're talking a year's long process mm-hmm.
To
develop that [00:18:00] culture in
a church.
But
that's
where, you
know,
as
we
talk, preach, pray,
love,
and stay,
that's
where
that stay peace really
comes
into
play.
Where
you can
develop
this
discipleship pipeline
that
can,
that
can reproduce
itself
in the life of
your
church.
JimBo Stewart: I love
the emphasis on
pouring into
young guys like you talked about.
Cause that was been my experience as well, and. You
know, mark Clifton talks about that in reclaiming glory, the kind of secret sauce of pouring into
young
guys
like that.
And
I have
found, even in this role at NAM and with the association, sometimes I will talk to guys who are bivocational. They're working 50 hours
a week in
their non-church vocation.
and so their time.
To
give
to
this church that they're pastoring is so unbelievably
limited that, they really only have the scope to choose a couple of things, right? and for the most part, it's kind of like, preach, pray, love,
stay. That's the
list.
That's,
Bob Bickford: that's
JimBo Stewart: they
can
preach, they
[00:19:00] can pray
they can love everybody,
Kyle Bueermann: sick,
Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: love.
Kyle Bueermann: Yeah.
I
mean
JimBo Stewart: there's,
they
don't
have
time
for
much.
And
so
one
of
the things
I've
always
encouraged 'em
to always
say,
look,
don't.
The
last
thing
you
need to
do
in
that
position
is
go
read
20
books on church
revitalization
and
try
to
apply
all those
strategies.
Yep.
You
don't have the
time.
What
you can
do.
Pick
a couple
guys.
Yep. Start
discipling them.
Teach
them how to disciple somebody.
As
a matter of fact,
if
all you
did
was
preach,
visit
the
sick,
pray for your
people
and
disciple a couple guys. if you got the time, if you've got the runway that
could lead.
Yeah.
To
a
much healthier church
if
they'll start discipling other
people.
Kyle Bueermann: well, and in reality, I mean, so, so you have two lanes primarily,
right?
if
if
that's
you
and,
and you're a
bivocational
guy who's
working a full-time
job,
you
preach
and
spend time with
people,
they,
they're your two lanes.
Yeah,
That's good. And
part
of that is,
I
mean,
you, ideally, you can develop some leaders who could go make
hospital
visits so
that
you're
not
the
point person for all of those as well. [00:20:00]
But
again,
that takes.
Leadership
development is really
just
discipleship.
I
mean,
if, if,
we're being honest, right? Sure. You,
if
you
wanna develop
leaders,
you start by
discipling
them
and
then
you
hand off
responsibilities
to them.
And
so preach
and
develop
people,
develop disciples,
pour
into people,
and,
and,
they're
your
two
lanes.
And
you
know, if you're a full-time guy,
spend
your time with your people when they
can
spend
time with you.
You,
so
when I was in an Air Force community
in the, the,
last
church I pastored
in
in
Alamogordo,
it
was
a,
there
was an Air Force base right
there.
I
mean,
I would
meet guys for
breakfast at 4:00 AM
because
they
said, that's when I get off work.
That's
when I
can meet,
okay,
then
let's
meet. Then
I, I, don't, I
don't wanna make
you adapt
to
my schedule.
I'll,
you
know,
and
cuz I can
say,
Hey,
I spent an hour and a
half with this
guy.
And
I'm going back
to bed.
I'll see
you
at
the office
about 10
o'clock
in the
morning.
Um, right.
You just,
if
you have
the
freedom
to
do
that, great.
If
not,
[00:21:00] figure out a way
to spend
some time
developing,
and
I
would say
develop
young men, because
if, as
you develop young men,
you're
gonna develop
fathers
husbands
who
are pouring
into
their families, and I
think your
your church will reap
the Benefits Of
that,
Bob Bickford: one of
the things
that Southern Baptist
did
for
years
and
years is produce
curriculum
through
lifeway
and,
having come
to Christ in
my
middle
school
years,
and
then also working as a, a
student
intern.
When,
when
a
student would make
a
decision
for
Christ,
we would get
them,
uh, something
called
the
survival
kit.
Kyle Bueermann: Oh
yeah.
Right.
It was
just
Ralph neighbor.
Yeah. This a
little document
Bob Bickford: that they worked
through
it. yeah,
Yeah, yeah, You released that 2019. Yeah,
they So
the, the question
that I
have, and
this
is,
this
is one
I'm asked often and
I was
asked,
this question
at
a
conference the other day.
what
book do
you recommend on discipleship? Cause
I
was
making
the
point
that
there are
two areas. If, if
you
can
focus
on two areas,
it
will
help a
church renew.
these two areas are vital to that.
One
is discipleship
and
a defined discipleship development
process
or pipeline or
pathway.
And the
second
is
[00:22:00] evangelism,
which is
really
part
of
discipleship,
but
mm-hmm.
but
but that
combo specifically
breaking what
you're
saying is
if
we
could make
disciples
JimBo Stewart: that
make
disciples,
Bob Bickford: that's
exactly
what
I'm
saying.
Thank you,
Jimbo. But the guy
asked
me,
he
goes,
What
book do you recommend,
right? Like
there's one
book
or
there's a couple
books,
so
mm-hmm.
Kyle,
you, when you mentioned,
cuz we've, we've
said get
some guys and
disciple them.
Can
we get
granular
on
that? What
does that
mean?
What
does
that look like? Are we taking 'em through survival kits?
Are
we doing
spiritual disciplines
of
Godly
Man
by
Ark Hughes? Are
we
doing spiritual disciplines for life,
like
by
Don
Whitney?
Kyle Bueermann: What
are we doing?
I, I'm gonna
throw out
Tom
Rainer's favorite
response
here.
Do
you
know
what
that
is?
It
depends. It
it
depends.
It
depends.
Yeah.
it
depends on
your
context.
I
mean,
For, it depends on
honestly, the
guys that you're working with.
Some
guys
will do
really well
working
through curriculum,
working
through books.
I
honestly like
some
of
the best
times
that
I've
ever had, we
just
sat down with
a guy,
a
couple
of
guys
open
up
the Bible
and
had [00:23:00] kind
of a
rubric
of questions
that
we
would
ask
on
a passage.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
And, and
again, this
goes
back
to what
I
said earlier, you do not have to overcomplicate this.
Yeah.
Um,
because
if.
Uh,
so our church just came through the seven realities
of
experiencing God. We, we just
did that. even
that
scaled
down
version
is still
pretty robust. I
mean, there's five days of homework.
the, there's some guys that, that would not work with, right? And so if you say, Hey, you know, we're
gonna
meet
for
an
hour and then
here's
30 minutes of
homework
I
want
you
to do for
the next five
days,
that,
that's not gonna happen.
But
if
you
just
said,
Hey, bring
your Bible,
let's
get together.
For
breakfast.
For coffee,
let's
sit down and we're gonna go through
this
passage
in Mark's gospel,
and
then
we're
gonna ask
these
simple questions.
What
does this say about God?
What
does
this
say about man?
Is
there
a
sin
to confess?
Is
there a promise to
claim?
Is
there an example to follow?
Or
is
there
a
command
to obey?
Mm-hmm.
Let's
just, let's
just walk through those
questions
on
every
passage.
And what you do
in
addition to
that, is
you
give
your guys
a framework,
uh,
a hermeneutic
[00:24:00] for understanding
the
the Bible,
right?
And
then
they begin
to take
that,
take,
take
the Bible, and begin
to understand how to apply it to their lives.
And
you
don't have
to complicate
it.
There's
not
homework.
It's,
let's
get
together.
We're
gonna
open up
the Bible
and
see
what
God says.
So
what,
what do you
use? I mean,
if
you
got
a
Bible,
you've
got what
you need.
It
worked for a
long
time before lifeway or any
publishing
house
existed.
And that's not a knock
on any of
the, on any
of
the
material. There's
wonderful discipleship material
out
there.
I
just,
I
think
we've relied
on,
we've relied on discipleship
material
to
make
disciples
when
it was never meant
to
do that. It was
the, the,
Bible
is
the
thing
that
makes disciples.
of
Bob Bickford: of Christ.
Right.
I love
that. And I think that's
so
important for
us
to
understand specifically
for
the
normative
size
church
and
for
certain
populations that
are
gonna struggle with, you know, 12 week studies Yeah. Of chapters that are
20
pages long.
Right.
You
know, 30,
30
chapters long
and then, and so,
per chapter. So,
[00:25:00] yeah. I
mean, you think this
is great. So I, if, if
a
guy,
and here's,
a, here's
a hard question too, Kyle,
cause
I we
find
this
a
lot
too.
What
about the
pastor
who's
never been
discipled
Kyle Bueermann: himself?
Bob Bickford: Mm,
Kyle Bueermann: Yeah. What
about
that
guy?
That's good.
I
think
that's where
he needs
a mentor.
where
where he needs somebody who's pouring into him
as well.
And, and, and I had that
and
that's
where
I came across
the,
what's, what's
called the sword method. What
does it say
about
God,
what
it
say
about
man?
Tho those questions,
was
through a,
a
guy
at
our state convention in New
Mexico who,
who
got a group of
pastors
together
and started
walking
through
some
discipleship training material and just said, Hey,
here's.
Here's
what
I've
seen work.
What
if
we applied this in our,
in
our churches? And,
with, with
a
method
like that, you
can,
if
you
got
a,
another
man in
your church together,
you
can disciple each
other in, in,
a way, which
I
mean, I think
there's some,
if
we
believe in
the priesthood
of
the believer, he has as much of
the Holy Spirit
as
you
do too.
You
find him
a true believer
and
you
begin
to.
Kind
of co [00:26:00] disciple one another,
but,
but you've gotta have
somebody
that's pouring into
you, uh,
I
would say
an
older,
more
seasoned leader
who is
pouring
into you as well. And,
being
a,
a
discipler slash mentor
in
your own life,
and
who can ask you hard
questions,
who, you know,
can
say simply, Hey,
you know, I know you
said
you, have
this
idea
about
your church. Here's
why I wouldn't do that right now.
Where
you
are.
Yeah. Find
somebody they can, they can,
pour into you.
and your leadership will
be,
will
grow
exponentially
if
you have somebody
that can
disciple
you
and
help
develop
you
as a leader.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
I think if
you're
a
pastor
that
hasn't
been
discipled,
you find
somebody
to disciple
you. Yep.
And
part of
that
is,
how
do
I
disciple
my people? Mm-hmm.
Right?
So find somebody that can disciple
you
in that.
And,
you
Kyle Bueermann: know,
talking
about
JimBo Stewart: all
these
books
we
ought to
Kyle Bueermann: one
of
them
we
gotta consider is,
Hey,
they
devoted themselves
So by
Dr.
Kyle Bierman.
it does
cover,
uh,
six, six big things. And, um,
each,
at the end
of each chapter, there's,
a
couple of
discussion questions
or
reflection questions.
So
if
[00:27:00] you're
reading
it through
with
a group,
you
you can discuss '
'em if
you're just reading it
through by yourself. Some,
some
really good things
to,
uh,
reflect on.
And then
at
the
end
of each
chapter, there's,
uh, suggestions
for
further reading
by
folks
who
are
a
lot smarter and
wrote
really,
really
good
books
that
you
should read.
After
you
read
mine,
Thanks
for
being
on the podcast,
Kyle.
Thanks.
Thanks
for having
me
guys.
This on the road, mobil edition of the Bootcamp finds Jimbo at home and Bob on the Road to Amarillo and a great EP, catching up with Dr. Joe Crider, the Dean of the School of Church Music and Worship at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Ft. Worth Texas. The guys welcome Joe and ask a few questions about Worship. Joe has great insights and drops some real gold when it comes to understanding the theological foundations of worship in the local church.Here are some of the highlights:* The typical definition of worship in a church is held together by a musical thread, not a theological one. * We often end up defining worship by what we like to sing. * God never called the church to gather around something that changes so much, so often. We are called to gather around Jesus Christ, to worship him. * Worship is a response to a self revealing God - we worship Him as he reveals himself to us. * Churches, regardless of size can have God glorifying, Jesus exalting, biblically faithful worship because worship is not tied to a musical style. * Worship is not a "hot band" and a "great sound system" * Use the scriptures as your foundation.
There are tons more great insights in this EP of the bootcamp. Pick up Dr. Crider's book, Scripture Guided Worship over at Seminary Hill Press for more great insights and equipping. Our awesome sponsor, One Eighty Digital, has the skill and insight to get your website in a place where you can accurately portray your church to your community in a winsome way. Get with them today and let them know you are a Bootcamper. JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] All right, here we are. Back at it again. Bob. I hope you're ready for the next episode. Bob, we've got you traveling this time. I think this is a bootcamp. First, as we have you mobile, in the car. I think early on we had Hallock as he was going through a Chipotle drive-through or something. but this is a, I think the first one where we've got you, mobile on the podcast.
Bob Bickford: It is Jimbo. I'm a fugitive on the run. And, I am, uh, . We're We're, we're actually, we're driving out to, uh, Amarillo, so, George Strait will be playing in the background. at some point Amarillo, by morning we're gonna visit my son and the grandkids and, the lovely Barb Bickford is driving. So boot campers do not worry.
I'm not podcasting and driving at the same. Unlike Mark Clifton, our boss at mam, who has been known Jimbo, I think, to do meetings while navigating drive-throughs and or, maybe going to visit replant.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I mean, mark accomplishes a lot in his [00:01:00] truck, and, usually more than one thing at a time. And so, he's a really gifted guy like that. We have another really gifted guy. He's a guest on our podcast today. we have had the joy of getting to know, getting to know Joe, Dr.
Kreider, over the last three. Revive events in Elk City, Oklahoma, Tucson, Arizona, and Mount Vernon, Illinois. And just traveling and, and eating out and spending time together. I've really gone grown to appreciate Joe and even started reading his book, scripture Driven Worship. And so Joe, excited to have you on the Replant Bootcamp podcast today.
Joe Crider: Thank you, gentlemen. It's really good to be with you. It's good to see you both again and, yeah, I don't have my, 60 ounce Diet Coke with me right now. Like I , like Mark does but, but, um, yeah, I, I'm excited to be with you guys. Thank you.
JimBo Stewart: Well, Joe, tell us a little bit about yourself. So tell us about your role at Switz and, where people can find things like your book or anything like that if they wanna learn more.
Joe Crider: Yeah, thanks. So, [00:02:00] I have the joy and the privilege of serving as the Dean of the School of Church Music and Worship here at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Texas Baptist College. And, middle of my fourth year. and, the Lord has, Really, really, blessed our time, helped us to transform all of our curricula, from our undergraduate to our master's degree.
And then we have two tracks in the doctoral program for, Christian worship. One in a, what we call our professional doctoral studies, which is, you know, our DMN or d Edmond. And then we have a PhD that's, headed up by Dr. Joshua Wa. And, Dr. Chuck Lewis heads up our, our worship area. And then we've got a performance area as well at all three levels.
So the Lord has been really gracious in, in helping us reconnect with churches and so that churches are beginning to look. Back to I think all of our seminaries, not just us. the great things are happening that Midwestern in the area of worship things are at Southern, are really strong Things at Southeastern are really strong, I think.
I think, [00:03:00] new Orleans is doing a great job. It's just all of our seminaries I think are really, really refocused on. serving the church because I think for a lot of time, for a long time, we were training students for a world that didn't exist anymore or doesn't exist anymore. Right.
Um, thinking that we had to be, really focused on a more traditional classical musical style. our church is just bypassed. And then they didn't look for the seminaries anymore. so churches ended up getting worship leaders who were maybe good guitarists and good singers, but really damn, and they didn't have much of a theological framework for what they were doing.
And then it became all about the music. And as it becomes all about the music, you start splitting churches and start, churches start to fracture because there's no theological. and I think that's really what happens, unfortunately in a lot of our churches needing revitalized or re needing replanted is that.
their definition of worship has been held together by a threat, and that threat is a musical threat rather than a biblical threat.[00:04:00] So, maybe I just jumped away ahead of where you wanted me to be, right there. But, what I'm really grateful for is our seminaries, I think. And I know all the guys that are seminaries, we're really thrilled and really excited.
the direction of them and where we're headed in being able to serve our churches, and that's why we're here in the first place.
So,
JimBo Stewart: I love that. One of the things that you did a really great job at the REVIVE conferences of talking about is how we need to approach our understanding of what worship is
in particular, and in relation to that. Really what's at stake on Sunday mornings. Briefly, uh, kind of talk about your definition of worship and how that relates to what's at stake on Sunday mornings when it comes to what we call the worship service.
Joe Crider: thanks Jimbo. I, I think. I think where this, where this gets off, where we get off or where we, where we, where we [00:05:00] stray is that we end up defining worship by what what we like to sing. And I don't think God ever called us to gather around music. In our worship. I don't think God ever called us to gather around music.
I don't think he would call us to gather around something that changes so frequently with a culture.
JimBo Stewart: Hmm.
Joe Crider: you know, when the organ was introduced to churches, there were people, and this is, you know, medieval time when the, when the pipe organ was really beginning to develop, there were people that said, that's the devil's windbag or Devil's windpipe.
Right. You realize that in every generation, anything that has been new or innovative in the, in the area of helping people to express their love to Christ in a corporate context, there's always been suspic a suspicion about it because there people have thought, well, what, what is that? That's just, that's just introducing the world into what we're doing because it's, it's a sound like that.
[00:06:00] so I don't think God would've ever called us to gather around something that changes so frequently. With the culture, but I don't think also God would've ever called us to gather around something that, especially now, we all have our own individual playlists. as, much as I feel like you're my friend and brother, as much as I feel like Bob is my friend and my brother, and we could spend time together, in a situation, whether it's at a conference or just hanging out.
We've got different playlists. I, you probably don't have Puccini on your playlist, you know, which is fine. But at the end of the day, we gather, our people gather around Jesus Christ, who never changes, and his word that never returns void. That's the unifying factor. Christ is the unifying factor.
His word is the unifying factor in a worship service. The word is transtemporal. It never. goes out of time, does not impact the power of the word. Grass withers. The flowers fade, but the word of [00:07:00] our God stands forever. The word is transgenerational. It works in every generational The word is transcultural.
It works in every culture. You can't say that about many types of music. So as we think about that, you think, well, this. Supposed to be heading a music school. What? What? But what I am saying though is, is that that makes the music that we do use even that much more important. Because what we help our students realize is that music is a wonderful servant.
It's just a horrible master. And when our churches look at music being in the master of the worship, then we flipped. . the real focus of our worship on what we like, rather than who Jesus is and what he wants from us in our worship. And that's to uh, you know, our mind's attention and our heart's affection are riveted.
They're focused on Jesus Christ, the author and the perfector of. So as we think through that, we realize that worship then is a response to our self-revealing God. Theologians will say God is self-revealing, right? He, [00:08:00] he reveals himself to us. We don't worship a God that we, in a way that we like to think of him.
We don't worship a God in the way that we've made him up to be. We worship a God in who he has revealed himself or to be. He's revealed himself to us through. Romans one, nobody has an excuse. Psalm 19, the heavens declare the glory of God. Genesis one, in the beginning, God created. So we, we, we worship a God who has revealed himself through creation.
We worship a God who has revealed himself through Christ perfectly right? Colossians one, he Jesus is the image of the invisible God. We see Jesus. We see who Jesus is. We look at him, we look at Jesus through the gospels, we look at Jesus through the entire Bible, right as the fulfillment of everything in the Old Testament as the, and then a, as who he is, uh, in, in the New Testament.
And we realizes that, that Jesus [00:09:00] is the perfect image of the invisible God. In Hebrews, he said He is the express image of God. so God reveals himself to us through Christ. God reveals himself to. Through the church, the end of the end of Ephesians one, where Jesus is the one that is the head of the church and the church is the fullness of his body.
The church is the fullness of Christ. So he reveals himself through us, to us, through the, through the church. But he also reveals himself most specifically, most clearly through his word. And in that we realize that in all the ways God is self is self-revealing. God reveals in his people respond. And that's the most simple and basic, for lack of a better way to say it, definition of worship.
God reveals his people respond. And if the word is not ever used in a worship service prior to the message. Then my question for worship leaders and pastors is then who or what are your, have your people been [00:10:00] responding to the entire time they've been in the, in the service, in the church service. Up to your message. A cool song, a big organ, you know, with a, with a choir or you know, some, some hip worship leader. Who, who have we been responding to? The idea is that we respond to respond to Jesus. So worship is like a rhythm. It's a God initiated rhythm, right? He initiates this rhythm by, by revealing himself to his. The redeem received re revelation by faith and then respond to him acknowledging him for his infinite glory and perfection through Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit.
So the fundamental level, God reveals his people respond, and he respond. He reveals himself most specifically, most clearly, most objectively through his word. and what's at stake on Sunday mornings. It's people's view of him, right? It's people's view of God and [00:11:00] our question. So that just elevates in my, my opinion, the stewardship of the entire pastoral team, beginning with the senior pastor to realize that everything we do on Sunday mornings is formation, is forming the devotional and spiritual lives of our people.
And our question then becomes, okay, let's look at our worship service. How are people's view of God being informed as we go through this time of worship together? Because the reality is Jimbo in Bob, is that? People's view of God are be, are, you know, the people are being bombarded every week, all the time, by social media, by, by TikTok, by advertising, by movies, by all the ways in which people's minds and hearts are being shaped right now. and that becomes our time together on Sunday mornings even becomes more important because what we get to do is recalibrate people's idea of who God is, who Christ is through [00:12:00] the power of the gospel, and then for our people to see the. In reality, who we are in light of the gospel. And for that time to be changed from just some mundane weekly meeting.
Here we go again to literally a transcendent encounter with the Trium God of the universe, who has given his son for us to have a relationship with him. So that's a, that's a mouthful, probably way too long on that. But this is what we get to do. We get to do it every. And I, I, I tell you what, I can't wait for Sunday mornings every week.
Can't wait because that's what we get to do. We get to have a, do we get to help our people engage with the
trium.
Bob Bickford: I think we pretty much got the doctoral, uh, seminar right there. and man, that was awesome, Joe. Like I think there's so much content in that that wanna, I wanna encourage the bootcampers push pause and then rewind back and then just go back and get those, get, get some of those points.
Cause I don't want you to miss what Joe is saying [00:13:00] here because it's so vital that we, we have equated worship. With forms and styles and all of those sorts of things. Joe, then given all of that, just having a, the right perspective on worship, how do those who are in charge of leading worship facilitate that from the beginning the gathering, all the way to the end in response?
Like, How do we facilitate that then, given all that content is. Do we need to guard the way we start it, what we say during worship, how we respond? Could you unpack that for us a little bit?
Joe Crider: Yeah, so, so thanks, Bob. I think where we go to is we, we trust in the authority and we trust in the power of the word through the Holy Spirit. John six, and I think it's 63, maybe Jesus is, talking to the disciples and he says, my word is spirit. You know, and there's that aspect of truth there.
So it's nothing that I say on Sunday mornings that really has any, eternal [00:14:00] significance, but everything that, that the word says there's where through the power of the Holy Spirit, because God is self-revealing. Right. so that's the whole purpose. and I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to push this, I don't make a penny off of this book, but it's, it's, it's just a book called Scripture Guided Worship colon.
A call to pastors and worship leaders and there's a very specific, order a call to pastors and worship leaders, cuz I'm trying to help pastors realize that, look, you don't have to have a hot band and a great sound system in order to have biblical worship. In fact, If that's what you think worship is, we've missed it completely.
and what I do is just simply take a passage of scripture, usually from the Psalms because that's the Saulter, that's Thesal book of the Bible. And usually I'll, I, we will just, we will walk through a Psalm and oftentimes that Psalm will have a connection point to our pastor's message. I don't always use Psalms.
You don't have to be completely stuck in the 150 Psalms, but you could, I could spend the rest of my life leading worship out of the Psalms, [00:15:00] but using other passages. Well, you know, you can use, I mean, anywhere in the scriptures because, that contour of worship. But that was the purpose of, of writing the book.
And you, and, and you can pick it up only through Seminary Hill Press, and I'm sorry about that. We just don't do the Amazon thing. Why? Don't tell anybody this. I don't know why we don't do Amazon, but we don't. So it's through Seminary
Hill Press, if you
JimBo Stewart: We won't, we won't tell anybody other than the people listening to this
Joe Crider: Exactly. Exactly. that's.
Bob Bickford: Which is about several, several hun, several hundred thousand are listening to the podcast now, but we'll, we'll just ask
Joe Crider: Hundreds of thousands, hundreds of thousands. The, the Seminary Hill Press, they're, they're gonna have to, they're gonna have to print a new edition here because of the, because of the listenership but it's, it's very easy. If you just get on Seminary Hill press and put in scripture guided worship, it'll pop right up.
And I think it's 12 bucks. I mean, it's, it's cheap. And again, it all goes to the seminary. And, but in. Is a, is a [00:16:00] process of that. Generally, what I would just simply say is, is that we get to, we get to celebrate the gospel throughout a worship service, not just tethered to the end of the sermon, right at the very end of a message where, okay, we're gonna give the gospel.
Now. The gospel's celebrated throughout the. Soul service, right? And the gospel, the four basic chapters of the gospel is God, man, Christ response, or you can say it, creation, fall, redemption consummation. where we realize and, and you see that beautifully illustrated in Isaiah six, worship begins with God.
It doesn't begin with us. He's the one that initiated it. He's the one that invited us to worship him and he's the one that made it possible through Christ, right? , we, we have no access to our access to God does not come through some magic guitar lick or some through some. Phenomenal organ in, in choir sound.
Our access to God comes through Jesus Christ. Period. End of sentence. And his [00:17:00] completed work. That's, and that, by the way, if you're a believer, that happens every place you breathe. So to say that we, that we only worship during Sunday mornings at 10 o'clock is an absolute other thing that we've gotta help our people realize because we wor worship everywhere we breathe.
It's a response, right? It's a response to Jesus. This is response to his word. And worship. What we're looking at is the beauty of just, of realizing that, that we get to worship and, and that worship can be guided and directed by scripture and therefore our songs are a response to that, those passages, not like, let's pick a, let's hear with a blank page and then figure out what songs we haven't done in three or four or five, six weeks, and what keys all work together.
No, let's don't be song driven. Let's be scripture driven, and.
JimBo Stewart: I love that. I, I love how well you demonstrated that during the, REVIVE conferences. I'm sure you demonstrate it everywhere, that you lead. you did such a masterful job of, of really letting scripture drive and [00:18:00] guide the worship service. And one of the things I like, that I think was unique, on the.
Conferences that we've done with that, that you, that you really brought to the table was a demonstration of how. Accessible, this philosophy of worship, this theology of worship is to the normative size church. we can talk style preferences all you want. and I, I mean I love all different kinds of styles of music.
but one of the things that I've realized in this role over the last several years, serving. Smaller, normative size, dying, struggling churches is, the idea of a full band, is not theologically incongruent, but it is somewhat unattainable for a normative size church. Like they just, chances are, they just don't have that.
Amount of musicians, uh, that play that different, many different instruments and can really put all that together. And so it feels really unattainable. and so I think part of that is when [00:19:00] we think of what, as we drill down from, from the theology and the philosophy to the application, how does the normative size church.
Really apply this well in a way that's excellent. That does not require a massive amount of musicians that can rotate in and play a bunch of different instruments.
Joe Crider: Yeah. I think one of the things is that you, you begin to see that there are wonderful worship orders. pastors can see as, as they even just do their, their devotions. as they study or as they look at the scriptures, they realize, oh my goodness, there's an amazing worship service right there.
Right. For example, let me pull one out just as a quick example of this. Let's just use, Psalm. 30. Okay. a, a worship pastor or a pastor could stand up in front of the congregation. Just say, I'm so grateful that we're here this morning.
As we, as we gather this morning, we realize that we gather at the invitation of the training, God of the universe who revealed himself to us through Christ, and he reveals himself [00:20:00] wonderfully and specifically through his. So let's hear first from him. As we look this morning. We're gonna, we're gonna allow, the Psalm 34 to just guide our worship today and, for our call to worship.
Listen to these the first couple verses of the Psalm of David, Psalm 34. I will bless the Lord at all times. His praise will always be on my lips. I will boast in the Lord. The humble will hear and be glad. Proclaim the Lord's greatness with me. Let us ex. His name together. Brothers and Sisters, let's exalt his name together as we sing our opening.
Fill in the blank, right? How many, how many hymns and songs could you respond? I mean, I can think of four. Praise to the Lord the Almighty. all creatures of our God and King. , you know, then you can go through all of the, the really good, songs and, modern songs that have a response of, of some kind of praise right there, right?
And then, here's interesting. So maybe one or two songs is over, and that's, those songs are over. Say thank you so much [00:21:00] that when you, you may be seated Now, listen to what David says next. I sought the Lord and he answered me and rescued me from all my. Those who look to him are radiant with joy, their faces will never be ashamed.
This poor man cried and the Lord heard him and saved him from all of his troubles. The angel of the Lord in camps around those who fear him and rescues them
JimBo Stewart: Hmm.
Joe Crider: well, that can go to another couple's home, that could go to the pastor, praying a prayer of confession. God we're, every one of us in this room needed res.
Every one of us in this room, every one of this in this room, without Christ would be a shame to look into, because we cannot stand on our own. It's only through Christ that we will never be ashamed. And all of us have cri. I mean, I'm just, I'm just making this stuff up as we go right here.
Right? but all of the different ways that those four verses 4, 5, 6, and seven, can be articulated through an incredible time of prayer. and that can either go into a song or doesn't have to. And let's say this day as, as a particular Lord Supper Day, well listen to the [00:22:00] next verse, taste and see that the Lord is good.
how happy is the perf takes refuge in him. Brothers and sisters, as we go to the table this morning, God has literally called us to taste and see his goodness through what he's done, through Jesus Christ, and as we celebrate together the Lord's Supper this morning. I mean, so, that's a little bit too much there, but, but that's just an example of how the scripture.
How our services are scripture driven, not song driven, and therefore our transition statements, our prayer times, all of those things are, are rooted in scripture that, again, doesn't return void. And why Baptist haven't been doing this for ages. I don't know. Because this is our, this is the way Baptist, I'm not saying this is way Joe Kreider says this The way should do this.
I'm just saying, we're people of the book, right? We don't have a denominational liturgy over our heads telling us what to do, but we have the word of God [00:23:00] and that's what we need to be using on Sunday mornings, and that's revitalizing worship.
Bob Bickford: Man, that's such a great, understanding and so accessible for pastors, worship. leaders. Just to connect. We, we have the. , we've always had the word. And thinking about how we can infuse that along with the songs of faith from our tradition, from our hymnals, and even contemporary new songs that speak of the, the richness of the biblical truth and weaving that all together and inviting people into, that's just a beautiful picture.
Joe, I, if you, if there are guys out there who wanna learn more, and be trained. How do they connect with you and Southwestern and what are some opportunities? Jimbo and I, we both went to different seminaries. We're adjunct with Southwestern, so we've been on the campus. We see some really good things happening, but there's some leaders and some, some pastors out there who may wanna think about, man, I need to connect, I need to get trained.
Or I, I know some guys who are
called and wanna go train. What's the best way for them to connect with you and the.
Joe Crider: Yeah, so thank you
[00:24:00] so much, Real quickly, we have. We have a lot of online, fully online opportunities for, for pastors and worship leaders. and the two online. The two online is specifically for worship. that I can point people to. You don't need an undergraduate in music. if you have any kind of undergraduate, it can be in.
accounting. It doesn't, it doesn't matter. we have a program called the G C W L. The graduate certificate in worship leadership is 12 credits. And then if they, if they're into that and they think, man, this has been amazing, all 12 of those credits can transfer into what we call the M A W L, the Master of Arts and Worship Leadership, which is a 36 hour, totally online.
And they can do it all from, from wherever they are. And we zoom twice a week with them so that it's not like you get, you know, some of those online programs. You have no clue who you're, who you're really dealing. You watch a video, but you don't know the people. We zoom all the, I'm getting ready in just a little while to zoom with our, with, with one of our other classes.
I zoom twice a week with my worship theology class. They're [00:25:00] not, they're not required to be on that zoom, but we really try to get to know our students. . The other thing about that, let's say somebody doesn't have an undergraduate, they can audit those classes. they can just audit them. Say, look, I just wanna audit the classes and watch the videos, and, we can help them with that.
My email is real simple. J Kreider, c r i D as in David, e r s wbt s.edu. and I would be honored and if anybody wants to just connect with me and say, Hey, could you talk me through some orders? Man, we're happy to send them examples. We're developing a website right now. Um, we've got one called artistic theologian.com.
That's through school and there's tons of resources on there. And I'm actually working a little bit more of a, a specific website on scripture guided worship that will have examples of it, of the things that we've talked about today. Cuz our truly our heart's desires to serve the church. and so, but thank you.
So that's how you [00:26:00] can please get ahold of me. Email me. I'm thrilled to do, we are thrilled to do anything we can.
JimBo Stewart: Excellent. Joe, thank you so much. This is all just such really good stuff and I hope that, our listeners will take you up on some of that and, continue to just make that shift towards letting scripture be the guide and what drives us on Sunday mornings. Thanks for being with us, Joe.
Joe Crider: Hey, thanks guys. I really appreciate you both. Looking forward to hanging out with you again soon.
Bob Bickford: yes.
Hey there Bootcampers! The guys are back for a brief rest from their travels before heading out on the road again and they took time to catch up with Rick Wheeler, Director of the Florida Baptist Foundation (Stewardship Simplified.)Together with Rick, we spent some time talking about church finances, a topic that may be overlooked until there are issues. But, we need to be proactive in our talk about finances. Grab a notebook, listen in and glean some great insights in the world of finance.Stewardship: is the God honoring management of resources as an obedient and a faithful disciple of Jesus.Here are some other great insights from Rick:* Be Intentional in talking about Stewardship * Ensure appropriate and adequate financial controls and accountability (2 sets of eyes and hands, accurate reports, separation of duties) * Bring in an outside voice and eyes to assist your church in setting policies and practices. (State Convention, Association, organization.) * Communicate with the congregation-let them know about your financial controls and accountability structures. * Understand what a budget is: + A goal-something you are leaning toward-make it faith oriented + A guess-it is not for sure or certain + A guide-it helps you know the boundaries and it serves as a guide + It is not a "god"
Listen all the way to the end for more great info from Rick on this important topic.Steward your web presence by contacting our sponsor, One Eighty Digital, they can help your church communicate and connect with your community. JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are. Back at it again, Bob. I hope you're ready for the next episode. We're home from, travel in Arizona, Illinois, with a REVIVE conference, and super excited to get to be back on our own domicile just for a little bit before we each hit the road for various reasons, yet again.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, and I just wanna say W Pig, Sui, Jimbo, the Razorbacks took down Kansas and I was resting on my couch with the pit bull pups and, they were sleeping and I was watching the, uh, game. So I was, was pretty happy coming home from our events. We had great events by the way, which was, was awesome in, uh, Arizona and then also in Illinois.
And you, Jimbo, you got to, you probably get the best rental car I think I've ever.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, especially for Arizona. I got a brand new Toyota 4runner, T r d off-Road Pro with 500 miles on it. and man, I, I kept seeing the mountains and I, I just kept being tempted just to throw that thing in four wheel drive and see how far I could get up the mountain you know.
Bob Bickford: That was good. I got a, a Mercedes that was kind of a [00:01:00] combo between a TAUs and a Corolla. , and it was, it was not that great. , I will say that
now. Hey, lest we lead our listeners to think that we're just blowing, CP and North American Mission Board money on those things, I just wanna, we need to clarify that you and I rent so many cars that we are in the higher echelons of the Hertz Gold Club, which means we can get a really fancy car for a cheap
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, for the same price. As a same price as a regular rental. Yeah.
Bob Bickford: should put that, we should put that out there. Since we've got a, a guest on talking about a particular topic today,
JimBo Stewart: Speaking of which our guest today is, a friend of mine that, I was looking at, we've been friends now for, uh, nine years, and he's been a friend and a mentor. as a matter of fact, he was my first phone call, when I was moving from New Orleans to Jacksonville. I knew that, uh, Associa.
were such a great thing and I knew I needed to connect with my local association. And so Rick Wheeler at that time was the, [00:02:00] director of missions for the Jacksonville Baptist Association, and then he was, even on the team that helped change that name, whether you liked that name or not, of associational, missional strategist.
and so if you hate that name, you can, you can blame Rick for that. No, I, think it was a great
move and
Rick Wheeler: and many people often do, so
JimBo Stewart: I, I've learned just an immense amount from Rick over the years and, grateful for his investment into my life, and, so I'm excited to have him on the podcast. But you're in a, you're in a different role now. Tell us just briefly about the role that you're in now.
Rick Wheeler: I will thank you and thanks for, thanks for having me on. I'm obviously, I'm friends with you guys, known you a long time, big fans of not just this podcast but more. significantly what you do in your ministry across North America. It's an important work. it's a work that is desperately needed and I think you guys are making a big dent and so grateful for what you do.
And you obviously rent a lot more cars than I do because the most exotic thing I usually get from Hertz is a Chevy Malibu. congrats on that, on that status level you've got going on. [00:03:00] Yeah, I, you know, the Lord has kind of brought me through a very circuitous route to this. You know, many of us have, I was, uh, outta college, had a finance degree, spent about a decade in banking, commercial banking and, retail banking.
best thing I got outta my finance career was my wife. we met working for, a regional bank here in Florida, and we're married in 1993. Spent, about a decade doing that. And then, around the late nineties, uh, after kind of taking, experiencing God and some other things, had all the, the Lord kinda move us.
We weren't really going in the wrong direction, but it was like we were ready to move into the kind of the vocational ministry world. Went to seminary and, uh, ended up coming back on staff at a church here in Jacksonville, Florida that I had, been a member of and actually was ordained as a deacon. in served on staff there for about three years and.
had the privilege of, working, with the Florida Baptist Convention. I know y'all have Bob Bumgarner on from time to time as a special guest and got to work with Bob and that was just a real growing and stretching time, kind of putting me in the consultative role of coming alongside churches, across the state of [00:04:00] Florida.
And then, in 2011, I had the chance, my, my wife said, Rick, I, I love what you're doing, but you need to not be gone so much. And so, our girls were younger at that stage of life and I needed to not be traveling. And so localized here in the Jacksonville area. And I served a network of churches of about, about 200 in a variety of contexts.
Did that for about eight years, and then in 20, late 2019 and beginning in 2020, moved to our, what, what has historically been known as a foundation, a Baptist foundation. We're the Florida Baptist Foundation. We kind of go by the, the name of stewardship simplified now, and the whole idea is we come alongside churches and we take that which is daunting sometimes in the financial world and simplify it.
So we. Church financially thrive. we don't want them to be stuck missionally, in the area of finances. A lot of times God's put a, well, every time God's put a call on a church to move the great commission forward in advance in their mission causes, and sometimes finances get in the way of that. Personally as families and as a [00:05:00] church.
And so, we want to come and help remove those barriers, help churches financially thrive in more important missionally thrive in the great commission work that God's called them to do. So that's a little bit of background and kind of, how the Lord's brought me to lead, Florida Baptist Financial Services.
Bob Bickford: Rick, that's awesome. and I'm so thankful that, you're doing what you're doing in Florida, hear great things that, are taking place there When we think about stewardship. In the church, most of the time we think about it kind of in a limited way. Okay. Receiving money, being responsible with money and those sorts of things.
You, you have a little bit broader definition of, of stewardship, don't you? And could you share that with us?
Rick Wheeler: Sure, sure. Yeah. You know, I, it really is, I think, a very limited approach to it. And so what we try to, do is help a church see the biblical truths that that kind of undergird, this, the short answer to your question is it's not about fundraising. It's about Jesus following. And so, we many times characterize the idea of stewardship in the church as just about, okay, we need some money.
Let's talk about, you know, let's talk about giving and hopefully get the [00:06:00] offerings up. If that's what you're doing. a it's not effective. B it's not biblical. It's, it's just not how Jesus approached the topic. And so we want it to help see that, first of all, you've gotta meet people where they are. The average North American is, pretty messed up financially.
Okay? Not all of us, but the average North America. We spend more than we make, on average, about a hundred depending on which research you look at. 110 to 115% of annual income. People spend more than they make. they're burdened with, installment loan debt, you know, car, car loan, debt, student debt, credit card debt.
so if we're not kind of coming in and talking. What does the Bible say about how we approach money management in the area of finances and, and there's some great helps out there. I've been certified in involved with Crown Ministries. Compass Ministries. I know Dave Ramsey does a great help in there, but, we can't really outsource that as a church.
I mean, we have to own that because, and here's why Jesus talked about it so. you know, people have been doing this [00:07:00] research for a long time, but there's over 2,350 verses in the Bible that deal in some fashion about stewardship or money. 11 of Jesus' parables helped us understand or used stewardship or money as a, a way to understand a biblical truth.
And so here's what Jesus knew, Jesus is not concerned about our money, but he is concerned about our. And he says, where your treasure is there, your heart will be also. And so if we don't address the issue of finances, we're leaving so much of people's spiritual walk. aside, we, we've gotta incorporate that about what it means to be obedient to Christ in the area of our finances, and, factor that into, what it means to be a disciple and just being obedient to Jesus.
JimBo Stewart: I love that approach of thinking of it as discipleship rather than, just saying, Hey, how do we make sure we raise enough money to pay the bills or build this next building or, give money so that we can meet this budget. but really it's about our, following Jesus and what he's called us to do and the way that he's called us to [00:08:00] view money.
one of the things that I've seen in kind of a consultative role is a lot of times when I come into a church and I am by no means, someone you want auditing your finances, but just, just in conversations, I'll hear things that I'll go, okay, that does not, it's either, that's either un. Or it's a lack of integrity.
Like, I don't know what all the laws are, but I hear things and I think, man, how so many smaller, normative sized churches, churches in decline, if. I have witnessed so many practices of handling finances that just don't seem right. And I guess my thought, my thought is if I'm noticing that, then man, someone who understands finances better than I do, would probably have a even higher alarm going off in their head when they hear and see some of the things that I see.
So how do we as smaller churches, think through walking with wisdom and integrity when it comes to finances. And just as a funny example, I remember [00:09:00] early on, you know, we had a process at, the church that God allowed me to be a part of replanting, where, the deacons would come, they'd pass the offering plates, they'd get to the back, and they'd all get there and they'd put it in the money bag.
And, two guys would get in and go walk and put it into the safe together. And, you know, we had this older deacon, you, you knew him, Mr. Alfonso. And, somebody looked at Alfonso and was just joking and said, oh, is this the part where we take our share out of the finances? And Alfonso said, you take as much as you think you can get away with,
Rick Wheeler: Hmm mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Not the narrative you want, out there about how you handle finances. Right. Yeah. and we all know stories like that. We all, can be kind of, almost comical or passive, you know, about just joking about it. But the reality is, I mean, Jesus took it very seriously.
I think, I think we should take it pretty seriously, and it has a lot to do with just, the, the financial accountability that we have. And, and it really speaks a lot about how. how seriously we take all of the stewardship of our time, our talent, our resources, everything. And so, you know, the thing [00:10:00] I would say as church leaders and particularly pastors, three of us here on this podcast, we have a lot of seminary in our background.
you're not gonna get a lot of this kind of training, in a, a ministry, vocational pathway. And so you're either gonna need to get that on your own or you're gonna need to bring in people. Train up people within your church who can add that and compliment your leadership. I would just say be intentional, first of all, about how you approach this.
I think one of the biggest mistakes we see, leaders make is they just kind of take a hands off approach. It's, it let other people deal with that. I'll deal with the spiritual and other people. Well, that's fine, except for how many red, how much of the red letters in the New Testament. Jesus is talking about this and so if we're just gonna give it the fair treatment that Jesus gave it.
We're gonna be intentional about this. We're gonna talk about it in the new members class. We're gonna, when we come across a passage and we're preaching through the gospels, we don't avoid those texts. We, we kind of plow into 'em and just say, Lord, what do you have for us here? So just make. Talking about stewardship issues, normative in [00:11:00] your normal conversations about what it means to follow Jesus is, is what I would generally say.
Now with respect to financial controls, I do think, it's probably one of the most common areas of, problems. We all know stories where there have been large amounts of monies that have been embezzled from churches. Most of the time when you trace back to how that happened, there was a lack of financial control.
And let me just be specific about what I mean by financial control. So there's two or three very basic accounting principles that all churches should employ. It's gonna look a little different. . you know, here's the good thing about your story. You told, at least there were multiple deacons back there handling the money, uh, when they kind of told that joke.
so it wasn't just a deacon back there handling the money. So that's, that's the idea of dual control, right? Anytime you're handling money, reconciling baiting statements, you want two sets of eyes. Two sets of hands, because it's not your money. It's, it's other, it's God's money, but it's money that's been entrusted to the ministry of the church.
And so you wanna have, with issues of financial reports, invoices, bank statements, [00:12:00] payroll, you want another set of eyes looking on that. Beyond the person who's actually doing it. So that's what we mean by dual control. The other is kind of separation of duties, which means the same person who writes the checks is not the same one who opens the invoices or, you know, looks, makes the financial reports.
And so certain people do certain things, other people do other things. And so you separate those duties so that there's a, a control. Not one person has control of the, the giving all the way through the financial process from the moment of. All, of course, most of that's done digitally, you know, electronically now to the point of, cutting a check or, you know, hitting the, the send button on a payment.
So dual control and, it just having separation of duties, handles a lot of that. Unfortunately, it's a lot more common in our churches to have, sloppy maybe the best, the best word. Cause I don't think most of it's intentional. I think we just don't pay attention to it. And so, I was telling the story, briefly about we have a third party ministry that we work with sometimes that, does bookkeeping [00:13:00]services for churches.
And they were telling me about having onboarded dozens and dozens of churches, across the country, into their, accounting system that. Every time they've onboarded a church. And these, by the way, these aren't just small churches. These are churches of all sizes. But there was, there was at least things that were being done that were improper.
And actually sometimes things that were illegal that were happening now. I don't think the, the illegal things were intentional. I think they were just things that were being overlooked or not, there wasn't attention being given to them. But, you know, the thing I would impress is, you know, pastor, you are not only the spiritual shepherd of the church, but you are also the leader of a 5 0 1 And like it or not, I know in Jesus' eyes, The church is a spiritual reality and we, we get that, we understand ecclesiology, but how many times have you heard a church either get stuck or actually explode, through conflict and, and other things simply because there was a financial problem in the church.
You just wanna avoid those things. If it can be avoided. Just practice good [00:14:00] rhythms and skills and things in the church so that you can avoid those problems.
Bob Bickford: Rick, one of the realities is, we work with churches that are single staff, churches that have, have small congregations, limited number of volunteers with expertise, and you might find a trusted person. A faithful member who, who has executed their responsibilities as treasurer or bookkeeper for, for quite some time and done, done a great job.
But maybe we've become aware of either process or some issues that require a transition. How does a single staff pastor who's a replant or revitalized how, how, how does he begin to communicate? People who are, are fine with old bill or old Sue who've been been the ones who write checks or cut checks on those things.
And then, and then also I, I think one of the things we see is, is sometimes if old bill or o Sue are on vacation, are unavailable, the church is kind of in a pinch at times.
Give some wisdom to the guy who might find himself in that situation, how to navigate to a different place.
Rick Wheeler: Well, I'll, I'll give a little bit of thought on how to approach the conversation and then maybe some [00:15:00] strategies on, on what to do. But, you know, if, if it's just such a sensitive topic to talk about, like it's insulting to that person, you know, whether or not it should be. To even talk about, Hey, we need to put in some more controls and more, people involved with this process.
bring in an outside voice. You know, let, let your , if you're a, a Southern Baptist church, you know, bring in somebody from your state convention, uh, or your Foundation like us or somebody who can come in and just kind of talk about financial controls. There's some good handbooks out there.
There's one that the executive committee has published for years called the Church Financial Handbook. That covers all of the things that I'm talking about. So in other words, you, you kind of take it out of the personal attack realm and into, Hey, this is just what objective, wisdom is in the area of finances.
This is what smart people who, who deal with money all the time said we should be doing. What do you, how do you read this? What, you know, just kind of present it that way. So bringing in outside sources to have the conversation. The other. I, you know, rather than trying to, you know, remove somebody from an office or limit them in some way, just build things around them, meaning, those accountability [00:16:00] structures aren't meant to necessarily, remove somebody, but to add support.
And the other thing is just let them know, like, Hey, right now, if an accusation were to occur, You wouldn't have any backup. You would be left defenseless against any sort of an accusation. But what I'm trying to do is save and help your reputation and your, integrity, so that there's not even the appearance of anything being done in an improper way.
So those would be some of the, the general ways I would try to approach it.
JimBo Stewart: I was talking with a pastor in another state and he was telling me about a church they were looking at potentially taking on as a replant and, the finances. , everything to do with the finances was handled by the secretary. everything was tracked on her yellow legal pad and in a way that wasn't really coherent.
and so he was trying to, you know, as they were considering replanting this church, taking it on, they were looking at the finances of it. that also operated a school, that the school had about a million dollar budget, for the year. But the church was only about 10 people. And. All shared finances and it's all [00:17:00] on the legal pad and it's, and it's all over the place.
And the way they managed their budget was literally like, you know, is there money in the bank then, you know, cause they didn't really do a lot of activity with only 10 people. And, so obviously they needed greater senses of control, but also just needed understanding. How do, how do we think about a church budget?
you know, the Bible gives us. Spiritual principles and even some wisdom principles on handling our finances. But, neither the Bible nor seminary will usually give you very specific details on how to view a budget, what to do with a budget, how to operate a budget, what wisdom would you have for smaller, normative sized churches as they think about their annual.
Rick Wheeler: Yeah. so there, I think there is some wisdom there. but as we're thinking about the financial controls and a budget is a financial control document, it, it kind of helps give some guidance and supervision. You know, I would also say make sure you're communicating with your church about the things that you're doing to apply [00:18:00] financial controls and wisdom and accountability in your church.
There's very strong research that says when people know. That this ministry or this church is handling finances in a responsible way. And there is backup and there's accountability. there are controls in place. Guess what? Giving goes up. people actually feel more generous to an organization, including churches.
And churches don't get a pass on this. You know, people, you know, you'd like to think, well, you're just gonna give to the Lord regardless. No. If people aren't confident that things are being handled appropriately, they're less likely to give generously. And so that's just from a practical standpoint, I know it's not like really exciting to stand up on Sunday morning and say, Hey, let's talk about dual control for a second.
You know, but however you communicate with your folks and in the rhythms of communication of your church, make sure you're weaving in regular. Times where you talk about it with some level of frequency. Hey, just so you know how things are handled around here, we have, we do everything above board. We do, we're completely transparent.
Anybody can ask a legitimate question at any time [00:19:00] and we'll, you know, we'll, we'll answer to the best of our ability. now when it comes to specifically with a budget, and again, a lot of my experience has told me that churches either will kind of fall in two traps. One is. If they have a budget, sometimes, it's just some lofty number that's not very meaningful.
Like, oh, well our budget's a million dollars. Well, no, no, but your church hasn't collected a million dollars in a year, in a long time, if ever. And so, it's not a realistic number. I've actually come into certain ministries that I was leading, and that's kind of how the budget was led in that particular ministry.
And so that's not good stewardship. The other would be that the budget is like such a controlling document. That is, it is like this super bylaw thing or something where, you know, people use the budget to knock people over the head or things like that. And so I think having a good, healthy organizational approach to budgeting is good.
And here's a little talk that somebody shared with me a long time ago. I'll just pass it along. Uh, it's not original to me, but it's been very helpful [00:20:00] to me. And, and that is three things that a budget is and one thing that it is not. the first thing that a budget is, is it's a. it should stretch you.
It should stretch you, in your efforts and it should stretch your faith. if God were to show up and bless, what are the things that we believe we're believing God will do in the next season of the life of our church? If you're, say, planning an annual budget. And so it should, it should be a goal.
It should be something you're leaning towards, you're striving towards. And so it should express that effort and it should express that faith that needs to be realistic, but it should have some faith element. I also think you should have a little bit of. In it as well. budgeting down to the very penny, just doesn't leave any room for the Lord to work.
And so try to, try to give yourself a little bit of margin for spending in there. And I like to call it a ministry spending plan, not a, not a budget, because then that just approaches it like, hey, the Lord's called us to do some things. He's gonna provide the resources. you know, it's kinda like the, the preacher who got up on Sunday morning and said, Hey, the good news.
The Lord's given us every last penny of everything we need to do [00:21:00] all that he's called us to do. But the rest of the new news is it's in your pocket, in your pocket, in your pocket, in your pocket. You gotta give it, right? And so think of it as a ministry spending plan. The second thing, in addition to being a goal, is it's a guess.
leaders operate with some level of uncertainty. And usually if you've got 60 to 70. Understanding of something is time to move forward. And so there's always a guess that goes along with budgeting. Opportunities come up, challenges come up, you know, pandemics come up, you know, things happen that we don't plan for.
And so it's a, it is based upon our best understanding of what we believe the Lord's calling us to do and what our, our realities are. Here's where we intend to go from a spending standpoint. So it's a guess. The third thing is it's a guide. You know, life is kind of one or lost sometimes in the course corrections.
You know, these rockets that go off from Cape Canaveral, do a lot of course corrections to get to the Space Station or get to Mars or wherever they're trying to go. in the same way a spending plan needs to be a guide, but a guide that can [00:22:00] allow us to make course corrections. Oh, we're spending a little too much in here.
We need to, we need to let it guide us. We, we have an opportunity to spend more over here. Let's not forget about that. So it guides you along the way of your spending, plan throughout the year. The rest of it is though, it's a, a goal, a guess, and a guide, but it's not a God little g God, you know, again, we don't use this, as the final say, it's Jesus's church.
He gets the final say and the budget should serve ministry. The ministry doesn't serve the budget, and so we gotta kind of keep it in its place. It's an important document. It's a necessary document, but it's not the final say on how the Lord would, lead us to, spend money.
Bob Bickford: I mean, that's super helpful, Rick, just to put it in those simple categories and, and break it down for us like that. most of the time when we talk about stewardship, we think of just the money, the inflows and the outflows. Are there any additional areas that we need to. Think about in terms of overall stewardship, like property, facilities, those sorts of things.
What, what are some other things that we should consider as we're thinking about [00:23:00]stewarding? Well, the resources God's given us.
Rick Wheeler: Yeah, I think, hopefully the, the overall theme here is that if we're calling people in our churches to be good stewards, we as a church have to practice that from a leadership standpoint. We have to be good stewards, ourselves and they have to look to the church. I mean, the church ought to be the beacon.
It ought to be the example. For how to handle finances. People ought to look to the church. Well, they do it so well. We should just try to do what they do. so practice good stewardship in your church, meaning, utilize the things, be good managers of the things that God has put into entrusted to us.
And so for most churches, particularly, smaller, typical size churches in, our convention usually, not always, but usually the, the most valuable asset you're going to have is your real. Okay, it's gonna be your property, your buildings. And so the thing I would, probably say in terms of, thinking about stewardship as a church is ask questions about how you're leveraging, how you're utilizing your facilities.
Are you utilizing them well? you guys probably see it and have. More stories than I [00:24:00] do. But I know even in my church resourcing days, there's a lot of times where we see a church in a community and the buildings are run down. There's been deferred maintenance, there's been just things that have gone on.
The roof's not in good shape. There's paint needed. Just, you know, things don't look good. But what does that say about the gospel witness of that church in the community? What does it say about the God we serve? I know you guys have talked a lot about those kinds of things and so, think about, be creative.
I mean, even as a smaller church, you can be creative to think about how you're utilizing your resources. Is there another church or a church plant that you would wanna partner with in your city that might, could share space with you? Maybe a language church. A number of of churches, you guys probably know, I know several churches where there's more than two churches that are sharing a facility and all can kind of help share in the, the burden, if you will, or the upkeep and the, the cost associated with maintaining those facilities.
There might be a ministry need in your community. that you could host at your facility. Uh, maybe a preschool or daycare. And, you know, you have to tread wisely in those, those dimensions. But [00:25:00] there may be a way you can meet a need in a community, generate more income for your church, and help maintain your facilities.
And so the thing I always say, just, you know, practice good stewardship. You know, Matthew 25, the Parable of the talents teaches us, it doesn't matter if it's little or. Stewardship is stewardship. And Jesus expects the same amount of stewardship from us, whether it's one talent or five talents. And there's actual evaluation done of how we've done with that.
And so I would say don't, just because you think you're in a, a smaller church environment and well, we don't have a million dollars, we don't have this, that, or the other. You have something you ha you have things that the Lord's put in your hands. And if I'm reading my Bible correctly, we will give an account for how well we have stewarded everything that, that the Lord has entrusted to us.
JimBo Stewart: Man, that's such a good word. Rick. I appreciate you taking the time to share with us. Just to recap, some of the things that we hit today is one, when we view stewardship, this is not just about fundraising, but it's about. Following Jesus and making disciples and helping us follow the commands that Jesus gives us.
Cuz he [00:26:00] talked a lot about money and scripture. And so we need to be obedient to the commands that he's given us and the wisdom that he's given us. But also in wisdom, we need to have wise control of how money is handled and how decisions are made to try to, prevent even unintentional illegal or improper activity, but certainly also intentional.
there just need to be. The things there that can help protect us from that. And then on a budget, I love that a budget is a goal. It's a guess and it's a guide, but it is not a God. And stewardship isn't just about money. it's a, I mean, stewardship is about anything that God has entrusted us with and that we be wise.
With that, Rick, thank you for taking the time to be on the Replant Bootcamp with us today. So glad that we got to have you.
Rick Wheeler: My pleasure guys. Good to be with you.
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are. Back at the bootcamp. Back at it again. Bob, I hope you're ready for the next episode. Another revive summit edition. This time we are in the great metropolis of Mount Vernon, Illinois.
Bob Bickford: Exactly right. I've driven through here many times cuz it is not far from my domicile. They're in Webster Grove, St.
Louis Metro familiar with it, but only the truck stops.
It was amazing tonight. I think if your church has some Mennonite women in your kitchen.
You're gonna win. So tonight we had, it was kind of carb fest. We had, chicken pot pie. Meatloaf, lasagna, mashed potatoes and green beans.
JimBo Stewart: I will confess I tried all of
those
things.
Bob Bickford: Well, I'm not a chicken pot pie. Never have been.
Never.
JimBo Stewart: that. Well, I'll tell you what that was one of the, if you were gonna like chicken pot pie, it
would
be that
one
If you don't like that one, you
don't like chicken pot
Bob Bickford: Well, I threw up chicken pot pie one time and so that, that's ruined me from chicken pot pie [00:01:00]
JimBo Stewart: now Green corn
Well, Bob, I'm excited. We have a guest a good, it's becoming a good friend. We've gotten to travel.
Frank Lewis was with us, last August for the Replant Summit was really our first interaction with Frank.
And now we've been doing these REVIVE summits. With him traveling across
the country.
Frank, welcome to
the Replant
Frank Lewis: Thanks
Jimbo. Bob, man, it's great to be here. We've, we've had, uh, I told my wife last night, we have laughed and cried our way through, uh, the last several days. It has been so much fun.
JimBo Stewart: Absolutely.
Bob Bickford: Frank,
just give us a quick backstory, your experience in ministry and just share that. Cause I,
most
of the boot campers probably they might not have ever heard of you cuz we, we have a very selective niche audience. .
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. By very selected niche. That's a nice way of saying a small audience.
Frank Lewis: Oh my goodness.
Well, I gave my heart to Christ when I was 16 years old in a revival that was preached by
Bob Bickford: Junior
Hill.
JimBo Stewart: Oh oh,
Bob Bickford: Okay.
Frank Lewis: [00:02:00] that's a, Yeah.
he's
uh, he's like southern Baptist evangelism, royalty,
you know? And, I came to
know Christ
and.
knew,
very soon after that that God was calling me to preach cuz I was raised in the church.
I, I had just not made a profession of faith until I was a teenager. So I, shared my decision with our church when I was probably 17, almost 18 years old, that, that I, since God was calling me to preach and this godly, layman in our church named Bill. Said, well, Frankie, if God's called you to preach, have a sermon ready next
Sunday, you're going with me to the Birmingham City
JimBo Stewart: Jail,
Frank Lewis: Okay.
And so, uh, that, that was my first, you know, get your toes wet. But, you know, I just knew, that afternoon when I was preaching to those men who had probably had too much to drink the night
before. Mm-hmm. , you
know, th
this is
what
God's
called me
to
do.
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm. .Yeah.
Frank Lewis: Not, drink
the night
before,
but
[00:03:00] but,
you know, preach and that, that sort of thing.
I,
I,
I I was just like a fish in water. so I went to Sanford University after Sanford, I went to New Orleans Seminary one day sitting in. the, president of the Home Mission Board, which of course is now
Nam,
Bob Hamlin said, if we're ever going to have, our cities one to Christ, we've gotta have young men with seminary degrees who are married to wives, willing to work outside the home. Probably without children, and we want you to go to our big cities and start churches. And, uh, I, I went home that day from, from seminary and, and told my wife about what I'd heard. she was a nurse by training and we. Did not really want to start our family right away. So we, we thought, yeah, that's us.
And the Lord opened up a door, for us to go to Las Vegas, Nevada. Mm-hmm. and start a church in a suburb [00:04:00] of Las Vegas called Henderson,
Nevada. Mm-hmm.
.And so we planted the Green Valley Baptist Church and it's still there today, going
Bob Bickford: strong.
That's great.
Frank Lewis: we're so proud.
Bob Bickford: And so Vegas, uh, from Vegas, then you came back towards, the, I guess not the Midwest, but the kind of, the what, what, where did you
move
to? to? Nashville.
To
Nashville?
Yeah. Yeah.
So is that the buckle of the Bible belt or is it like the first notch
Frank Lewis: in the belt?
Well,
I, I think it
qualifies
as
the
Bob Bickford: belt really
JimBo Stewart: from
Vegas
to
N Vegas
Frank Lewis: Yes, yes.
And more ways than one. I'll tell you what, uh, Nashville has just exploded in growth, in the. 25, 26
years now
that we've been there.
I came to Nashville to work at the Baptist Sunday School Board, which of course is now lifeway. And I was in the pastor staff leadership department as the preaching and worship
consultant
for the convention. So I led conferences all over the United States [00:05:00] for, pastors. We would talk about preaching and pastoral.
mental health, physical health, you know, just trying to keep guys from burning out and being thrown out, that sort of thing. we started a new magazine called Let's Worship and launched it during my time at the board and got to preach and in some great pulpits and. and just really loved that, ministry.
And then First Baptist Nashville called
me. Uh, I was already
serving as a pulpit supply in their contemporary service, and they, uh, they called me about a year and a half into my ministry at lifeway, to become their senior pastor. And I just finished, a 25 year ministry there in December of 21 and stepped down to let, somebody new pick up the torch and run with it.
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm.
JimBo Stewart: Man,
it's so great.
I, I'm so
excited
that we
get
to
introduce
you
to our
bootcamp listeners. And, before we dive into the content, just as we have learned about Frank, Bob and I have [00:06:00] just become
fascinated with the
many
layer. Of Frank Lewis and we have slowly learned that Frank is not only a
phenomenal
preacher.
We learned
that
pretty quick.
but he is, a black
belt
in
every kind
of
martial
arts and Eagle
Scout
and maybe the scariest
man
Bob Bickford: ever met.
Well, you wouldn't know it cuz Frank, your demeanors, I mean, you're so kind and gracious and friendly and, but he could kill us if he needed
JimBo Stewart: to.
Well, I mean, I joke about it, but honestly I would, in an honest way, I would say Frank, I think you embody meekness, you embody
strength
under
control,
and
there's
the meekness
that
you
have
comes through
in
your
preaching.
Mm-hmm. .
And it makes you want to just pull, lean in and, and hear everything that you have to say.
Frank Lewis: Wow.
Those are kind
words.
And,
I'm thankful if, if God has used me that way in, the, short time. That you've known me, it's been with, pastors and and rep planners and, you
know,
I I remember early in my days in Vegas, I went
[00:07:00] to
an event where all the, church planners had
to attend
and it was this annual meeting and somebody from our state convention came and and just told
us,
What, sorry guys.
We were,
that, that
we didn't deserve the, the $500 or $300 a month at the convention was paying us to plant churches. Cuz all we did was sit at home and prop our feet up and watch television and I thought, you know, God, if you ever give me the chance
to
encourage pastors, help me never forget that experience because I, I knew how horrible that
felt and, uh, helped me to be able to say something that's gonna be encouraging to somebody.
Bob Bickford: Mm. Well, one of the things in your talk that you, did for the revive gathering here in Mal Vernon, Illinois is you talked about clergy self care.
And, you know,
even
on
the
topic of how do pastors care for themselves and how do they, make sure that they're [00:08:00] taking care of their spiritual needs or physical needs, those sorts of things. Why is it.
Guys who are engaged in either planting or renewal revitalization, replanting. Why is it so easy for a pastor in those settings, even a traditional church, to neglect himself and his own, wellbeing?
Frank Lewis: Yeah. Bob, you
know,
that's such a great question and, and I think it's really got a, a fairly
simple answer
and that
is,
you
know, , if you're in that role of planting, replanting, or
as you said,
all the demands that a pastor has to, have on his shoulders, your schedule
is pretty
crazy.
Mm-hmm. ,
it, it becomes
a task master. Mm-hmm.
....And you're gonna have early morning meetings with people who maybe that's the
only
time
they
can
meet
is,
is for
an
early
breakfast or you're
gonna be out late, late, late with people. you. in Las Vegas in those days. My wife worked as a nurse. She worked the afternoon shift, two to 11 at the hospital.
And so I would be up late when she came home.[00:09:00] and we would talk for a couple hours it seemed like, you know, and kind of hear about her day and that sort of thing, and go to bed
kind of late. and then
if
I were up early
in the morning,
it was because I had some
place to
go and, some, body to meet or something.
And so it's easy to
neglect
those
disciplines,
uh,
especially
those,
those
that are
kind of
time
sensitive.
You
know, when you're a college student, a seminary student,
you're on
a
schedule mm-hmm. ,
you're
on
a
calendar and you have to be at class at
a certain
time. And, it's.
To
probably
do your devotions in your room
or
somewhere, than it is when, when you're trying to do all these other things and you get on a treadmill and it's hard to get off of it, you'll be running, uh, you've got this opportunity, you've got
this meeting.
You've,
you've got that deadline. You're, you're trying to juggle
so
many plates
all
at once.
that, I think it just becomes,
well,
I'll,
I'll, I'll do
that.
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm.
Frank Lewis: And
later never comes.
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I know.
I [00:10:00] remember as a college student, I could wake up early, I could go all day in, into late.
but I was a youth pastor for a while. I did some lock-ins and that ruined me. I couldn't stay up late anymore. ,
then they got old
JimBo Stewart: I
Frank Lewis: Well,
lock ins
are
the
devil
Bob Bickford: I thank
you.
Amen. Right.
for every lock-in you, do you
lose a year of your life?
I think
so. my time might be up next week, so I
will see
Frank Lewis: Yeah. How do well
I, I think you seriously
have to
be, dedicated to your
calendar
that you're gonna keep, you're
gonna schedule,
uh,
time for
those things
that are most important.
Yeah. Uh, just
like
you would
have time set aside to prepare a sermon, you're gonna have to put on your calendar. Devotion, And,
and
it
becomes, a, a [00:11:00] habit. It
becomes
a good
habit,
when you practice it. so for me, years ago, I just made the decision, no Bible, no breakfast.
Mm. And
so I get up in the morning, I'll, I'll have a cup of coffee. today, of course, like so many, I use logo goss. And so I'm, I turn on my computer and, I've got a. a reading plan in my devotional for 2023, I have my prayer list for 2023 and, and it's just a very easy process for me to read through, that day's scripture reading.
I have a commentary, a devotional commentary that I'll
read beside
that. Then I spend some time going
through
my prayer list.
I
have a, a Daytimer journal that I've used since I was probably 30 years old. And so I u I use my Daytimer page to write my thoughts about, you know, what
God is
saying to
me
spiritually, those kinds of things.
and then I'll, I'll spend
some time
on my
knees. I, I, [00:12:00] The
physical
posture
of being
on
your
knees
is
just as critical as anything else. That's a part of my
routine
in the morning. and it's
anything
but
routine. It be, it becomes, you know, I, I know
if
I have
missed that, my whole
day.
is impacted.
And if you miss it more than a day, if you miss it for a week, it throws
a
wrench
in
your
system and your preaching shows and your parenting shows and everything else shows.
And,
in a similar way, I schedule the other things that I have on
the
list.
I,
I exercise three days a week. I have one day that I do heavy lifting.
That's usually on either Friday or Saturday. you know, I'm, I'm lucky. I've, I've got a great place at home for that. So some guys might have to go to the gym. when I was pastoring First Baptist and I went to the gym, I knew more people there, you know, and everybody wanted to stop and say hello and talk and, you know, you couldn't get your workout in unless you were ugly to people.
So,
uh,
so
I made the investment and [00:13:00] I've got a, a nice, you know, cage at home and, and I can, I can put some
pretty
heavy
weight on it and, it's
just a life giving
routine
for me. the martial arts was a part of. , not so much today. I mean, I'm 64 now, but, you know, in my, in my fifties, I, I was, I was pretty lean and, and I would, I would go to class three or four times a week, and that put me with a different group of people than, than church
members. Mm-hmm.
and these, these,
these became dear friends over the years and there were guys.
Sought
to, share Christ with and have gospel conversations with, got to baptize, you know, two or three over the years, and minister to others in other ways. that's all part of it too. But if you neglect
your.
Physical exercise, your body's gonna pay for it, and your ministry's gonna pay for it because you have to have a way to get
that
stress
out.
If you don't get the stress out by, physical exercise or by [00:14:00] art or running, or, you know, doing something, to, that gets you outdoors and gets you sweating and gets the heart rate up and all that sort of stuff, it's going to shorten.
Your ministry in the
long
JimBo Stewart: run.
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Frank does not look, 64. He looks like
57.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. That's
part of being
a kung fu master.
Bob Bickford: he
mentioned something. Jimbo, I'll, I'll explain this to you in, in our younger listeners. Can Google it. A Daytimer is a paper organizer
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I,
I'm, I'm familiar.
I, okay. Yeah. I
had
a daytimer
for
a
long
time,
a physical
one.
I only
recently
moved to
a
Remarkable,
yeah,
that's,
it's
just
digital
paper.
yeah,
It's not like an iPad,
but
I have
a
Daytimer
basically in my
remarkable,
I, I,
do
the
same
thing.
I,
I
I have keep my
calendar
in there,
and
then
there's
the
And I
use
that
page
and I, and I work
through
things
that
are
going
on
in my life and, and, and
with
my soul.
And
I
think
it's just
so
important.
I
think
it's
one
of
those
where
I
have
learned,
cause
I
am
not a
[00:15:00] naturally
orderly
person.
I
am,
I
am much
more
of a,
I
mean, I just
prefer
to
go off
of. Of
intuition
off my gut,
whatever
I
feel at
the
moment.
And I really
don't
like being
constricted,
by
personality. But I've just learned
the benefit
of, if I will, if, if I'll choose
some
areas of my
life
to
just
be
very
rigidly
disciplined,
it'll
actually free me
up
in
other
areas.
And
so
if I'm,
if
I'm
a
little
more
just
rigidly disciplined about having time
in the word
before
I
do anything
else, getting
out
there,
getting
physically moving,
sometimes getting my blood moving,
and
getting
that
stress
out. I, would affirm
that it's, there were so many moments.
I remember
I
got
in the
best shape
of
my
life in the
worst
season
of
ministry.
Mm-hmm. ,
because I remember
thinking like,
all
right,
I
gotta
be in fighting
shape because
this is
hard
and
I'm
having
a fight,
spiritual
warfare,
and so
I
can't have anything
holding me
back.
And
so I
was
more
dedicated.
physical
fitness
in [00:16:00] that season of my life than I ever have been.
Frank Lewis: Yeah. Yeah. And it makes
a difference.
I
think
it
clears your
mind. I think you can, handle some of the other opposition
that comes your
way with a, a sense of confidence that you're taking care of yourself. your blood pressure's gonna be
better,
you know, all, all those things that,
I mean,
it all
works together.
God, God
knew he was doing
when he
knit us together, didn't he?
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm. .
Yeah. One of the things you mentioned, in addition to, you know, stuff we often hear in terms of spiritual health, spiritual disciplines, exercise, fitness, diet, those sort of sleep, you mentioned that as well, but you mentioned something that you labeled social support.
Frank Lewis: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: Can you unpack that for
Frank Lewis: us?
Oh,
I'm glad to. You know,
when,
when
I
went
to
Nevada, I felt
like
I was,
in a
season of
life that in
some
ways was
so very
exciting.
I had, this
new
circle
of pastor
friends,
and we were.
In
an
area
that
was,
you
know,
it was
the
mission field.
Oh, yeah.
[00:17:00] Southern
Nevada was targeted in 1985 as the number one city that Southern
Baptist needed
to plant churches. And
so
you're out
there
with
some seasoned,
longtime Nevada
pastors.
and,
uh,
we,
we had a breakfast
every
other
Tuesday morning
and it
was at this
little
restaurant and we'd
go
in there
and of
course,
this is hilarious. when
I think back on it now, you
know, we
dressed
up
like it
was
a
Sunday
morning
and
a
big
church.
You know,
we
all,
we
all
had our coats
and
ties on
and
yeah. You've this,
remember
what year
it
was?
This was,
this
was
19
JimBo Stewart: Back then, man,
if
you were
a
pastor,
that's,
that
was the
Frank Lewis: you you
know,
it was,
it was part of
the
uniform. you
you might
see
somebody
on
the
side
of
the
road
that
needed
help
and
if
you
pulled
over and
you
were dressed
up
like
a
pastor,
they would,
they might
let you
help
'em, you
know?
so anyway,
but, but you got to know, you got to know
that circle of guys. Well
then,
[00:18:00] also
arrived.
Southern Nevada at the same time that, a United Methodist pastor, a Lutheran
pastor,
a Catholic priest,
and
an
American
Baptist pastor, all got
there
in
the
same,
time,
the
same
window.
And were all trying to plant churches in
this
same
little neighborhood
in Henderson
called Green Valley.
And we started doing, first of all, some, you know, Christmas community services together or a Thanksgiving service together. And, and that friendship became so critical to each one of us, we
would celebrate
with
one
another.
When
one
of
us
got to purchase property.
Hmm. We
would
celebrate when one of us got to build a
building. Mm-hmm. ,we
would
celebrate
as
we would, uh, see our, Discipleship ministries and our outreach ministries take traction. And at the same time when we'd had a month where [00:19:00] maybe everything was going wrong and there were some of those months too, we could crawl on each other's shoulders for some prayer support and that group.
Really was a, a great little fellowship group during that time. And I remember when I left, made my announcement that I was leaving the church to go to the Sunday school board. it was, it was the American Baptist pastor who reached out to me first before any of the, you know, my Southern Baptist tribe did, to just say, Hey, I just wanted to pray with you and pray God's
blessing
on this new season.
That sort of thing. I'll never forget that and, and how meaningful that was to me,
but those relationships will carry us in ministry. you'll pick up the phone or you'll pick up, you know, you'll send an email or a text message to a, a ministry colleague, and they'll get it, whereas nobody else in the church is really kind of on your safe list to
say
certain
things to.
they're just.
unfortunately, there's [00:20:00] just some things that, that we don't talk about with our personnel committee chairman
or our
deacon
chair.
mm-hmm. .
Uh,
but we need, we need an outlet. We need a brother in Christ who will pray with us and encourage us, and, they've licked their wounds in the past and they know what those are like. So I had that, kind of group in, Nevada. And then in Nashville when I became pastor at first Nashville, one of the professors from a nearby university put together a little, You know, a little group. There were six of us pastors and we would go on a retreat twice a year, usually, usually around November, and then again, probably sometime in April.
And, and we would spend two days with some assignments looking at the text of scripture
and, um, This professor taught Greek at one of our Baptist colleges. And so, he would really pour himself into us. And it was kinda like sitting in a, in a doctoral
seminar
[00:21:00] setting. Yeah, yeah.
You
know, and we would, we would talk about our preaching.
We'd have two
days to
do that. We'd have some good, good fellowship. We'd go to eat, you know, some nice restaurants and, That became a group where we could also talk openly and freely and with some great confidence that what we were sharing wasn't gonna show up in somebody else's sermon next week.
That sort of thing. tho those guys treated that as a sacred trust and, I think every pastor benefits from being in a group like that.
JimBo Stewart: What
advice
would
you have for a guy who
he
does
not
have
that kind
of
social
support? His calendar at this point is so chaotic.
He's
bivocational trying to run this church solo pastor.
she's
got kids
at the house and so he's thinking when he hears this, that sounds.
how
do
I find the
time?
How
do
I find
the guy I can trust? because you know, you trust the wrong pastor with your most vulnerable thoughts and, that can burn you as well. And, what
[00:22:00] advice
would
you
have
for,
for that listener?
Frank Lewis: Well, that, that's a great question, Jimbo. I think that the first thing I'd want that pastor to hear is not to beat yourself up for being where you are.
Mm-hmm.
if you're
if you're bivocational and you're
trying
to
get
this
church
started and you
might
have, a young family. You know, you might have teenagers.
What? They're
different seasons
that we
go through with
our
children. they're unique seasons and, and they demand, you know,
that they
all
have
certain demands of
us, but you can, at the same time, you can start where you are making little. Small incremental changes. And I th I think the first change I would encourage is to look at your devotional life.
I shared
with
our guys
today something called the soap outline, and it's
from Wayne
Cordero New Life, uh, fellowship and Hawaii. Uh, heard
him at
a
seminar
years
ago
and he said, if you'll
take,
the scripture and write [00:23:00] down your observations. An application and write a prayer based on that scripture.
And he says, and if you'll let that be your, your
daily
devotional outline, you'll never lack for something to say
when
it
comes to time to preach.
So here's a
bivocational pastor trying to juggle sermon preparation and all those things. find
a daily
devotional that will feed your, your spirit and your soul in such a way that you can f you can share from the overflow.
JimBo Stewart: Mm-hmm.
Frank Lewis: and
that might address some of the time demands on sermon preparation and Bible study
preparation.
I think the second thing I would say is, look at your diet, look at your
television
habits,
you
know,
that kind of thing.
the whole idea of, of staying up really late at night because we're depressed or tired or depleted and, too tired to go to sleep, so we just sit up and watch television for hours.
you know, there's, [00:24:00] there's probably nothing on the late night television that you're gonna use an a sermon,
Probably
not.
you know,
so, so your
sleep,
your sleep's gonna
be much
more
important, so,
try to shoot for seven hours, maybe eight, if you can get 'em in. I, I think that's gonna be so beneficial to
JimBo Stewart: Frank.
thank
you
so
much
for
taking the time to be on the podcast with us today.
Frank Lewis: Well, thanks for having
me. You guys
are
the
best.
It's
Bob Bickford: great to have you.
The guys welcome Dr. Trevin Wax, Vice President of Research and Resource Development at NAMB to the Bootcamp. Trevin's new podcast, Reconstructing Faith, is one of our favorites, we're talking about some of the subject matter from this season's final Episode 12 on how the church can impact culture today.We asked Trevin a couple of questions about things the churches can avoid and what gives him hope about the church today.What Churches Can Avoid * Abandoning orthodoxy to stop decline * The assumption that it is impossible to grow as a church in today's culture
What Important Commitments are Necessary for the Church?* Hold to doctrine - keep standing where you are standing * Be known for the way your church serves the community (especially the marginalized)
How To Mobilize the Church Today* Champion the idea that there is no expiration on spiritual gifts - there are opportunities for seasoned saints to engage people with the gospel regardless of age. * Rephrase the question: What can't these Sr. Adults do? See them as an asset not a liability * Help the church turn outward by working with those who are most receptive to living missionally, let God change the hearts with your work of faithfulness (start with who you have) * View the church (even if small) as a strategic outpost for gospel ministry
Listen in for more great insights from Trevin and checkout his resources and podcast. Help your church improve its social media and web presence in connecting with the community. Our great sponsor, One Eighty Digital can get you headed in the right direction. Contact them today and let them know you are a Bootcamp listener. JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp. Bob, I hope you're ready for the next episode. Back in our own domiciles from the weary, travel that we've been on lately, we've been in all over the, country and continuing to be as we do a lot of great events and at one of those great events, we had, a really great speaker, in maybe the most unique venue that we have ever hosted a replant.
Bob Bickford: Absolutely Jimbo. We were at the Replant Lab, the replant practitioner lab in Atlanta, and our dinner got kicked to the College Football Hall of Fame because apparently all the floor and decor stores were. Having a big conference at the Omni. So we were trying to work a deal where we could get rid of the Red Baptist carpet that's in so many of the declining churches.
And I think we have a, we'll have a sponsorship to announce at some point in the future. man, we walked in this room in the college football Hall of Fame, right next door to the Omni in downtown Atlanta. Beautiful venue. We walk in where we're having a banquet and it's this half a football field with complete, with a field goal.
And I think [00:01:00] you've tried to kick a field goal there. If I'm not.
JimBo Stewart: I did. Yeah. 2019, we went over. At that point, if you had a Chick-fil-a red card membership, you could get in for free. And I had my wife with me and she single-handedly funds our local Chick-fil-A with her and our three kids. And so she, I think there's a step above red that my like signature. My wife is a signature member and it's one of those, she has so many points of Chick-fil-A.
I think she's a signature member to like 20, 27 or something stupid like that. and, and so they were like, yeah, come on in free. And, uh, thank you for all the money you've spent at Chick-fil-A. So me and my wife and, Kyle Bierman and Evan Skeleton went with us and we kicked field goals and, toured the whole place.
It was pretty great.
Bob Bickford: Awesome. Well, part of that, we had a, a kind of, sort of a banquet, I would guess, and we had a, uh, concert by Chosen Road, but we had a speaker, Trevor Wax, who is part of the NAM family. And we wanna welcome him to the Bootcamp podcast. Trevor, it's great to have you here, and thank you for doing [00:02:00] our event last week.
Trevin Wax: Oh, great to be with you guys and, thoroughly enjoyed.
Bob Bickford: So tr give us the quick backstory. I remember becoming familiar with you as a, fan of the Gospel Coalition and reading your articles and those sorts of things. And then I learned that you went to, Southern Baptist Seminary and you've been a missionary. Then all of a sudden we got the great news that you joined us at the Nam family.
So can you give us like the, quick, who is Trevor Wax and how did he get here? Background.
Trevin Wax: Yeah. So I'd say first and foremost, I'm a. I've been writing for, for a long time. my, blog has been hosted at Gospel Coalition for 11 years now, so I've been writing columns there for, for a long time. But, you know, I've been writing books. Even first book was publish was 29, so I've had a number of books that have, come out over the, the last decade or so.
but yeah, I did, I, I did mission work in, uh, Romania for five years. When I was, doing my undergrad, I was at a Christian university there and doing some mission work at the same time. I've been at both Southern Seminary for my MDiv and then Southeastern [00:03:00] Seminary for my PhD. worked at lifeway for 11 years.
helped start, a curriculum called the Gospel Project that was way more well received than we realized actually when we first, started it. But, has really been in, used by a lot of churches. also spent a, a lot of time at lifeway, helping launch the csb. So the translation, the CSB that launched in 2017.
and then, uh, also by the time I left there was leading Lifeway research. So I came to Nam about a year and a half ago to, oversee a small team of. research and resource development. We do new churches.com for church planters. We assist the evangelism team, the send relief team, the SY network team, and different resources that are coming out.
We've been involved with you guys as well at, replant and, you know, just speaking into different things that are going on when it comes to revitalization and whatnot. And so yeah, so it's exciting to be in, in the Nam family and, be able to bring some of, you know, Experience that I've been able to have in, in other areas to, to help assist Nam and, and, all the, great things that, this organization's doing.
Bob Bickford: Man, it's been great to have you, as part of our [00:04:00] Nam family. And I, I think the bootcamp is probably a stepchild to the Nam family at some, a sort of way, , but we are, we're super excited to have you and then. Most recently, you launched a podcast within the last year, and tell us a little bit about that and what was the heart behind that?
Trevin Wax: Yeah. you know, it was a, I wanted to do a podcast that was a little different than, a lot of the podcasts I was listening to at the time. I, was thinking about doing something that would be addressing some of the different issues. Facing the church, giving us something of a credibility crisis.
So it's called reconstructing faith, which obviously a little play on words, cuz a lot of people are talking about deconstruction right now, deconstructing their faith or decon converting. But it's not so much a podcast for people that are deconstructing or a, in that sort of phase.
It's really more for those of us in the church that want to see the church be healthier and renewed in the, in the coming years. And so, it's documentary style. So think like, you know, this American Life or the rise and fall of Mar Hill and things like that where it's story focused. There's, you know, news clips and music clips.
People talk about the music clips. quite a bit of, old CC m [00:05:00] from the late nineties, early two thousands, showing up there. But, it's, uh, a little more journalistic style with interviews and things like that. And so, You know, the idea of it was, how, you know, how can we do this in the most compelling way possible to kind of address some of these issues in a way that would be really constructive.
Like, really, like that's what I wanted was to get voices that are, they're not necessarily, they're not like flame throwing kind of voices. They're not, you know, controversial. They're not the ones that are, you know, out there saying this thing or that thing. They're really, you could tell from the people we had on there, I think they really want to see the church better.
And are wanting to rebuild in some way. And so that, I wanted the whole tone of it to be that, yeah, we need to recognize that there's a lot of challenges in the church, but we also need to, you know, roll up our sleeves and, and get busy. And so I, you know, and it's found a good audience. There's a lot of people out there that I think are asking these questions that are not necessarily wanting to, to just.
Listen to, you know, podcast about, oh, everything the church has gotten wrong, or that, just ignore all that the church is getting wrong, but to, to really say, okay, how can the, [00:06:00] how can we be part of the solution to a lot of the problems that we, that we face in the church today? And, that's really been the heart of it.
I don't expect everyone to listen to it and necessarily agree with every guest or every proposal or everything that's there. But the, the idea is let's get a conversation going for those who really want to rebuild. And yeah, we'll have. Conversations and debates and disagreements about some of the best ways forward on some of those pressing issues.
But the goal is if we can get constructive voices, in conversation, I think, I think we'll, we'll, I think, that'll be healthy and good for the church.
Bob Bickford: I think that's excellent. And in particular for us in our work with churches that have been in decline for a while, there's some, conditions that have led to the demise of a church. And one of the things I, particularly found most helpful in your last episode for this year was a conversation you had with Tim Keller that provided. Critique and, and observation, but also some hope. And, as we deal with churches that are struggling and have been struggling for decades, they find themselves in a challenging musician where, where they've maybe become attached to some things that they've gotta [00:07:00] steer away from. And, uh, so as you think about church, when you see it, in as it is now and where it's been, what are some of the things that you think would be helpful for.
As churches, maybe a declining church or plateau church, what are some of the things we need to be cautious about or tend to steer away from, or maybe avoid even?
Trevin Wax: Yeah. You know that episode, you know, Keller brought up a few things, that where the church really needs to, to avoid some, some particular traps. I mean, one of them, I mean, one of the most common ones is. Thinking that the way that you stop decline is by changing your core convictions and your, beliefs.
You know, that's sort of a liberal mistake, is this idea that, you know, well, we, there's a, I've heard it said, you know, there, there's some, some leaders in the Church of England saying this. There's a moral chasm between us and the next generation, and the only way we're gonna reach the next generation is if we jettison some of our long-held beliefs about marriage or sexuality and things like that.
which I think is the exact wrong approach when, the church has this weird tendency, I think of like jumping on bandwagons, right? As a train's about to crash,[00:08:00] and I , I'm like, let's not do that. Like, you can watch the train wrecking, you know, with, you know, I, and even like secular people are beginning to ask questions about the sexual revolution and has it been good for women and for kids.
And so like that, it's like, yeah, now is like the worst time to like jump on that bandwagon, right? So, you know, so jettison in orthodoxy to stop declining. That's, that's the mistake most people listen to This podcast, I think would be more inclined to what can sometimes be the mistake more on the conservative side.
And that's just to assume that we can, that we, just to assume it's just gonna be impossible to grow again. I just like, if we just maintain what we've got, you know, that'll be success. I like to say it's, it's making maintenance the.
Just, let's just huddle up, hold onto what we've got, and that's gonna be what success is and really losing hope that Christianity can thrive. there are times when God. shows us that that's not impossible. I mean, there, there's been, you know, a lot of conversations about the, spiritual awakenings at, you know, Asbury and other college campuses and whatnot among young [00:09:00] people. And I mean, I, regardless of what, you know, people may think about the, the ins and outs or everything good or bad about, you know, particular awakenings.
They're always messy. You know, they're, they're always messy. But the one, the one thing that has always been the case about revivals throughout history is that they're, they're surprising and suddenly it's like you, like there's an intensification of the work of God that, you know, you've been plowing and plowing and plowing, and then suddenly it's just like you start seeing results or fruit that just are unexpected.
Tim Keller likes to say, you know, we've never seen a revival in a post-Christian nation, but he. You know, at the same time he's like, yeah, but you know, it doesn't happen until it happens . So like, when it happens, it happens. So like you can't, you the idea though that, that we can't grow in a secular environment or that it's impossible for us to thrive, that sort of defeat us deflationary that I think we've gotta, we've gotta avoid that for sure.
But those are two of the big.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I, I would agree that from our observations, we see a lot of churches go into that kind of maintenance mindset [00:10:00] and wanna blame the lack of growth or effectiveness on a lack of responsiveness to culture. and that. one of the things as we work with dying churches, they often will tell us, we held the black parties, we did the events.
Nobody wants to come to our church. We've invited them, and no one wants to come. The culture is not responsive, and they enter that point of hopelessness. One of the other things I like that you discussed with Keller was the idea that there is a hopefulness and what, what will. The church look like in however many years that is, if we see, you know, some great renewal, what will in, in 50 years, when none of us are pastoring or are leading, what, what will that look like in the local church?
And there was, you know, a lot of ways, I think five ways that, that Keller listed out, that all had a very, very Keller theme. Of failing to understand and fully grasp the gospel. but as you look at some of [00:11:00] those, what stands out to you in particular to the churches in this audience are very small churches with, solo staff, usually by vocational, or churches being replanted by a mother church, starting with a pretty, pretty low critical mass.
and it's hard for them sometimes to see hopeful.
Trevin Wax: Yeah. I. Talk about the church in 50 years and where it might be. And I know you say none of us will be leading then. I mean, you need to speak for yourselves. Like, I'm so hoping to be around. I'm . I'm like, I I want to be like, uh, you know, I, I wanna be the guy that's like all, everybody's already died before me and I'm kind of turning off the lights.
You know what I mean? Like, like, uh, in my nineties, right? In my last book, like, that's my, like Dick van
Bob Bickford: he's primarily talking about me. I would be as old as the Apostle John or older.
Trevin Wax: Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: Look, I've, I've worked, I've worked with enough 90 year olds to know, how miserable being 90 is. So I'm good with, with going ahead and going to heaven.
Trevin Wax: See, I don't know, man. Like I lo like Jean Getz and I'm talking about like Jay [00:12:00]Packer and some of these guys. Like, I'm like, yeah, I want to be still doing my, daily core exercises when I'm 95. But beyond that, okay, that's 50 years down the road. We'll see if this podcast, if I, if I, if the Lord gives me that many years, I wanna serve him that many.
If he takes me much sooner, that'll, that'll be. Just fine too. I'll won't, I won't be complaining. Lemme just put it that way. But, um, uh, no, when I think, I think when we think about what the, the church is gonna look like in 50 years, or even a hundred years, this is one of the, the things that is really behind the, the heart.
It's the heartbeat for my book. The Thrill of Orthodoxy is that, there's a lot that's unknown right now. And there's a lot of, you know, discouragement in the church today. and especially among leaders that are plowing in tough areas, tough fields, you know, and not, not seeing the growth that they wanna see or whatnot.
one of the, the things that got a, you know, that I, I wanted to, to make clear with thrill of orthodoxy was to say, well, You may not know all the answers, but you can plant your flag here and you know that you can, you can stand here at the, the, the sort of the bedrock of the faith and [00:13:00] you can have confidence that what Christians have believed for 2000 years, if the Lord tears a hundred years from now, there Christians are gonna be believing those same things.
So there's gonna be a sort of, uh, an orthodox in doctrine, like they're still gonna be confessing. You know, the nice scene creed, the faith, you know, once for all delivered to the saint, still gonna be, believing. I mean, I believe there's evangelical essentials, you know, about, you know, justification by faith alone and are still gonna be saying these, these things.
So, one of the. Areas that's easiest, I think for all of us. Or I say easy. It's, it's probably harder than it seems, but it's, it's easy in the sense that there's not a whole lot to do except just to keep standing. Where you're standing is to say, we're not gonna reneg on our, on our doctrine, on our, on our, on the truth.
so the renewed church is going to look a lot like the old church. The ancient church I think is, is an important thing to, to remember. but when I, when I think about particularly, you know, churches in, in areas, It can be tough and the the, the resistance can be strong and there may be, you know, areas that, are more disadvantaged today or [00:14:00] are in challenging areas where there's, you know, people leaving the community rather than moving into the community.
I think of that happening in a lot of places. Say, well, what, what would our new church and areas like that look like? Well, I think, you know, one of the, key ways. That, a church is, the church is that a church is known for the way it serves the community. and it serves the people in the community. you know, Keller talks about being very more generous than, than the wider population into serving the poor and the marginalized and those that are, that are, you know, in financial distress or in economic distress or even moral distress.
You know, I mean, you think about the opioid epidemic that's ravaged so many towns and cities and things like that. And so I would just ask the question, okay, what are the gifts in the particular congregation you've got, even if it's a small congregation, if we're talking just tens of people, right?
Like what are the particular gifts to like make an impact so that the church is known in the community for a particular thing. Maybe there's a s a public school that's having a lot of challenges and there, there are people there that are tutoring or, you're collecting resources [00:15:00] like fill backpacks for kids that, that really don't even have a.
Essential school supplies and things like that. I'm just thinking like, what are, don't think big, think small at first and don't think that you've gotta do everything. Think about what you know, can you do something? I think that the church, being the church in that kind of environment and being known for this is a, this is an outpost of generosity toward our community.
That because when, even when culturally, There's resistance because of some of the church's beliefs. and there's gonna continue to be that resistance, just demonstrating the, the, the goodwill and the heartfelt. compassion of Jesus for that, for our community can go a long way. Can, it can really, can go a long way.
And so, again, don't think I'm talking about another program necessarily, or like adding a gazillion things to the, the plate of a busy bivocational pastor. I'm just saying like, look around at what are the gifts and skills that God has already placed in that congregation and ask how can those be deployed for the community.
Because the, then the invitation is going [00:16:00] to be different when that, when that church is known for something more than just holding worship services. It's really known for being a, a beacon of light in a small, in a, in a small place.
Bob Bickford: I love that idea and thinking through the churches that, we have pastored as re planters as Jimbo and myself and then others that we have friends and peers and colleagues, and then churches we console. Oftentimes in a declining church, you've got a, a seasoned group of saints. Who built the church in their thirties and forties, but now in their sixties and seventies, that is really a daunting task to mobilize those folks into a culture that's completely different than the one they grew up in and equip them to engage, in mercy ministry and compassion ministry and those things.
What council might you have or encouragement might you have for a re planter who's looking around at the, at the gifts that exist, even though they're in, Embodied by saints who are older, how do we mobilize, a small group of Christians who may be their, their primary days were[00:17:00] 10, 15, 20 years ago?
How do, how do we remobilize that group to engage their community in some helpful ways that would steer us towards this idea of the church being known as a, as a place of blessing and a body of blessing in the.
Trevin Wax: Yeah. I, you know, I love the way that you're asking that question cuz I think it's important for us to all realize that the body of Christ is like, there are particular gifts given in the body of Christ and there's not an, there's not necessarily an age limit on these gifts.
And I think, I think we live in a society that, really think. , most of the time young is better than old. and just the how out of step that is. with history in general and church history in particular. there are particular gifts that older saints have that younger saints don't have and the younger saints need to benefit from.
And not just younger saints, but also people. So if there's, you know, if you've got a church that's got, you know, 30 to 40 people in. The va, you know, the average age is over 65. well then you gotta ask the question, what does it mean for us to. Godly grandfathers and grandmothers, not only to our kids and grandkids, [00:18:00] but like in our community.
Like, what does this look like? And I mean, I kinda tell you some of the best, like disaster relief people I've ever worked with in a church have been people that are retired that do training and then wind up rushing to places that are, you know, where there's emit suffering and, and doing a tremendous amount of good.
Like, I, I just, I feel like we, we kind of asked the question. Almost backwards. Like, well, of what use can be these older saints. And I'm thinking the question is like, well, what can't they do? ? Like, let's let, I mean there's so many things that, older believers can have and, and the more you get older believers engaged in particular forms of outreach, ministry service, compassion, whatever it might be, the more outward focused you get them.
One. One of the challenges, and bivocational pastors I know, know this, is that a church. Just left to itself naturally turns inward. It happens with our groups. It happens in congregations and you, you don't get a church to turn [00:19:00] outward by berating the church and by just telling them all the time, you should look outward.
you only get that to happen when you get, you know, a few leaders in the church when you get those that are most recept. To actually begin doing work that is outward focused and you let that sort of revitalization of their own spiritual, that spiritual rule take place, begin to get contagious in the church itself.
Like you, you gotta, you almost gotta bring back the virus of thinking outwardly to combat the virus. looking inwardly. And, and that doesn't happen unless, un unless you, you wind up finding and, and I, encourage pastors, to think, okay, so let's say you get some pushback and resistance and just apathy from, 80%, 90% of your congregation.
Well, if you've got three or four people that. Somewhat receptive that you can bring kind of out of the shell and out of the, well, this is the way we've always done it and kind of did, where they're [00:20:00] actually thinking of ways of serving the community or, or ways of, you know, if you can just start, start with who you have that's, that's receptive in that way.
Pray for God to show you who those are. you let the, instead of the pastor feeling the weight of, I gotta change the pers the perspective of everybody in my congregation. You let God do that changing through the people that the spirit's already changing their perspective in. So it's, it's a shared burden.
It's not just all on the shoulders of the pastor. I think that's really key to getting people to thinking outside of the, outside the box, outside their own walls and whatnot and beginning to think. I mean, the reality is a lot of churches are. The vast majority of churches around the world are small.
and we, we've gotta stop seeing that as something that's necessarily bad in and of itself and recognize that there's, there can be strategic, ministry that happens through. A smaller church, rather than assuming that that's always, something to downplay. I mean, it's difficult.
It's really difficult, especially when a church has already gotten to a certain age. It's, it's harder to reach young [00:21:00] people. I mean, all of the, there are all sorts of dynamics in play from age to class to, you know, ethnicity, all sorts of things that can make this a, a challenge to reaching the community.
But I mean, starting with who you've. Is one of the things I'm encouraging pastors to be thinking about.
JimBo Stewart: I love that idea of starting with who you've got. And it ties into what you said even earlier about, don't we always think it has to be the big thing, but really if we can think small, What is that thing we can do in our community? What's that three or four people we can pour into in our church?
one of the reasons I think we struggle with that you also address in this podcast is that kind of consumer. mindset that has really infected the American church in a way that makes us, I think it makes us as pastors feel like we are in competition and we're, we're losing, right? And so when we look at our 40 people and, we look at other churches in our community, we feel like, oh, this is a competition and I'm losing, and the small things that I'm [00:22:00] doing aren't important.
How would you encourage the, pastor that struggles with that mindset, maybe even, they're not necessarily even trying to be subservient to the consumer mindset, but they feel like they're subject to it, like they don't know how to succeed because they feel like they're in competition.
Trevin Wax: Yeah. I mean, the first thing I would say to that is like, let the good side of the consumer mindset do its work. And what I mean by that is like we, we tend to, I think almost like just sort of rail against the consumer. Culture there are all sorts of challenges that are brought to the church by consumer culture.
I've written a lot about those. I'm not, saying we should be pro consumer culture, but those challenges always have opportunities. And one of the opportunities is, when you live in a consumer driven society that is built on marketing. every organization has to ask the question why? Like, why are we even here?
Why do we exist? you can take some of the istic pressures and actually use those [00:23:00] in the favor of a, of a church, recognizing we can't just. We can't just say we exist because we exist and we should exist cuz we've always existed or we've existed for a hundred years or whatever. You can't do that anymore.
You have to clarify the mission and like, what are we really here for? Like why, why? What are we doing? Why are we meeting every week? Why are we, you know, why haven't we shut down? Why don't we just all go to the church across town? Like, at the end of the day, you gotta ask the question like, what does God, like, what, what, what particular mission does God have for this particular church?
I mean, obviously it's connected to the great mission that all churches are supposed to have, but like, ask the, the contextual question, like, what are we doing right here, right now? Like, why does God put this church here? And does God still have a future for this church? And if he does, what is it So I would just, I would not rush past the. feeling of pressure that you get in a consumer society. I would love that pressure. Do some of the good work of leading you to clarification of mission questions that can be really helpful for a church
JimBo Stewart: Hmm.
Trevin Wax: we [00:24:00] we're, we're not just gonna be here cuz we've been here.
we want to be here because God's called us to be here and we've got a, a role to play in this community for this reason, for this purpose. You know, what are the particular gifts we. for such a time as this kind of a question. So, so first I'll just say don't rush past those consumer, that those consumer culture challenges.
but secondly, then I would, say, okay, don't think of yourself as competing. in, spaces where other churches may be doing great work. think of yourself as complimenting rather than competing to say, okay. We're a 40 member church and they've got 400 across town and they've got all these programs and we can't compete with those programs. Well, it's like, don't try, like you're gonna just like a 40 member church trying to like, have the level of kids programming or whatever, you know, or student ministry or whatever that afford member church is.
It's probably gonna be done. Not really well. so I think you gotta asked the bigger question of then what, okay. What does it look like for us to invest in the, in the, the younger generation or the people that we've got in our, in our congregation. In a way that actually is gonna let them lead. there's a book called Growing Young that came [00:25:00] out a few years.
that talks about churches, and these are not some of them are larger, but not all of them Larger. there's a lot of small churches that one of the ways that they incorporate young people into their congregations and are able to see growth among young people is by investing, like seeing them not as The target, so to speak. But as leaders in the congregation, they, they call it embrace keychain leadership. In other words, you give you hand over the keys, like you, you let them really lead and like lead out and then they take ownership in the congregation itself. a few years ago, Andy Stanley made some controversy cuz he made a comment about how student ministries.
That don't have sort of the flash and glitz and glamor of, the megachurch, what megachurches can do for student ministry. He's basically like, look, if churches don't get on the board and they don't have this like level of excellence with student ministry, you're just gonna lose 'em all. They're gonna either come here, they're gonna leave the church completely.
And I remember when all that happened and there was some backlash and Andy kind of apologized and said, I didn't mean to like diminish smaller churches and their student ministries, but I just remember [00:26:00] thinking, that's not even. I know lots of people that went to like flashy, glamorous student ministries that are nowhere near the church today, and other people who were in smaller congregations, but who were very involved in serving that are as invested in the church today as they ever were because they were trusted with leadership and responsibility early on.
So I would just say like I think a lot of smaller congregations and those in decline can sometimes beat themselves up for not being what the church across the street is, rather than realizing God. Can use all, God uses all kinds of churches, all kinds of sizes. it's good to want to have younger people in your congregation.
Don't think that the, it's the program that's going to attract them. Programs don't disciple people. People disciple people. when Paul talks about discipleship, he doesn't talk about, he talks about young women pouring into, older women, pouring into younger women and older men into younger men.
He doesn't, he doesn't talk about adopting the, the latest, greatest, you know, having the latest, greatest experience in a, youth ministry environment. So, [00:27:00] all that to say is, don't try to compete, try to compliment and like to figure out what it does it mean for our church to do, to know, to do discipleship. in different kinds of ways that may not be as programmatic, but can still be very, impactful and personal for.
Bob Bickford: It's good word, Travis. Thank you. Thinking, of just one last question. As you look at the church today, what causes you to have hope for its future?
Trevin Wax: You know, I'm not really optimistic about the church, but I am hopeful about the church and I'm glad you asked me about the question of hope. I mean, the main hope that I get is just the fact that the church goes through these cycles of renewal and decline all the time. And I mean the, the gl, I mean the church.
At large, I don't just mean individual churches. there are seasons where it's really tough and there are seasons where just abundant fruit happens. And I, like you can trace these throughout church history. So I think one of the things that gives me hope is just watching these cycles and, throughout church history recognizing.
We're, yeah, we're facing a lot of challenges, but the [00:28:00] church is always facing challenges. Like it's just, this is the kind of thing that happens a lot. so I have hope for that. I have hope of what gives me hope is what Jesus says about the church. That the gates of hell are not gonna prevail against the, the church.
another thing that gives me hope is I do see a hunger among younger people, especially for an encounter with God that is serious. and I see, know, a lot of people look at the next generation and they, they're deeply concerned and there are reasons for concern. But when I look at, some of the, commitment.
Just traditional like to orthodoxy among younger people is really, is really encouraging to me to, to see, cuz I don't, I see younger people sometimes more serious about the truths of the faith than some of the, some of the older people that would. Complain about them. So, I mean, that's one of the, that's one of the interesting things is to, to watch, the generational shift taking place.
So all of these things give me hope. And then the, the main thing that gives me hope is just, I get, and you guys know this too, you get to be on the, when, when you work at a place like Nam or you get to serve in different [00:29:00] environments and, you know, my, my connections allow me to, to see a lot of churches at work, regardless of what makes the headlines, the, the church churches are doing really, really good work in a lot of places.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah.
Trevin Wax: they're unsung heroes everywhere and people don't realize it. And I love seeing the church in action knowing, hey, one, one of these days, like, and maybe an eternity, but God is going to, God's going to showcase the heroes of the faith and they're not gonna be the ones that we assume. There is so much amazing work that goes on and so many things that the churches are doing that don't make headline. Art reported in newspapers, on the internet, whatnot. and God sees, God sees all of that. And when we get a chance to see a lot of that, it's encouraging cuz it means God's at work and we get to be a part of it.
Bob Bickford: It's a great
JimBo Stewart: Amen. That's so good. just plot away in obscurity. Staying true to orthodoxy, our hope is in Jesus focus on not only the big things, but the small things. Don't be in competition, but. [00:30:00] Be complimentary. So many highlights, so many great things. Uh, I wish we had more time, but I would encourage our listeners to go check out episode 12, A Reconstructing Faith where Trevon dives into this, uh, a bit further with several guests.
And, Trevon, thank you so much for coming on to the bootcamp. Where would you like to point anybody, that wants to know more about where they can read more or listen more, to more of what you're saying about the church? These.
Trevin Wax: Yeah, I mean, you're just, I, I'm, I'm writing@trevorwax.com, which will take you to my column at Gospel Coalition. I do a couple, couple columns a week there, so that's probably the, the easiest way to get in touch. And h we're thinking about doing a second season for reconstructing Faith. So, hopefully if there's any listeners that haven't heard it, that want to go listen to the.
To the first season. They're all up there and out there, and hopefully will be helpful for a long time.
JimBo Stewart: Thanks for coming on.
Trevin Wax: Thanks for having me.
The Bootcamp Bros are joined by none other than, Walker Armstrong, Associational Mission Strategist, stopped by the bootcamp during the Replant Practitioner Training and joined us for chat about Discipleship. Walker and the guys spent time talking about some of the barriers commonly experienced in the effort to make disciples in the local church. Here […]
Welcome back Bootcampers! We're jumping back in on the subject of conflict, with the "other" Bob. Today the guys get down to the important subject of how to have the "conflict" conversation.First, a little definition on one of the important characteristics of Replanters, the willingness to confront.Willingness to Confront: the replant pastor with a willingness confront is able to willingly but not eagerly, navigate conflict with directness, love, humility, patience and wisdom, driven by a love for the church and her members.As they jump in here's the resource mentioned: Crucial Conversations. A crucial conversation is any conversation where you know, there will be opposing opinions where there's strong emotions and the stakes are high.Here are some quick insights when it comes to crucial conversations* We need to look at an entire pattern - not just an instance * It is important to prepare for crucial conversations * Avoid jumping to the "worst" interpretation of an offense
Here are some tips to be more productive during times where you are having crucial conversations.* Be self aware-know what your triggers are and what is taking place inside of you. * Ask yourself in that moment: "Why am I feeling this way?" * Understand what story you are telling yourself.
Avoid making the fool's choice: which is when I believe in the heat of the moment that everything is either or.Check out the rest of this EP for some incredible helps on dealing with conflict. Get the help you need for your church's website and web-presence. Our great sponsor, One Eighty Digital can get you headed in the right direction. JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are. Back at it again, Bob number two. I hope you're ready for another episode as we are knocking two out while Bickford is on the road with some family and jumping into the fun topic of conflict.
Bob Bumgarner: Awesome. Yes. Glad to do it.
JimBo Stewart: Man, we're excited to, again, have you on, to the Bootcamp podcast. And conflict is such a key conversation that we've got to have. it becomes one of those things I think can so easily derail. Everything that you're trying to do when it comes to leading a church towards renewal. And so, just as a way of reminder, we mentioned it last week and we wanna mention it again.
cause we try to tie back to the characteristics when we can. Cause so much of what we think through is how do we, how do we help pastors skill up in the characteristics of effective replants in revitalizes and one of those key characteristics. Willingness to confront the replant pastor with a willingness confront is able to willingly but not eagerly, navigate conflict with directness, [00:01:00] love, humility, patience and wisdom, driven by a love for the church and her members.
And so last week we had Bob Bumgarner on and we talked about. This idea of when church conflict happens. Really framed off of the book, with that title from Michael Hare. And we talked about levels and dynamics and how to think through this interpersonally, intergroup, and how to demystify conflict and know that it's, it is, does not have to be an ender to everything.
And that it, as you build a culture of dealing with. Directly and with love and gentleness, then we will see that become an easier process to continue to repeat when conflict comes up. but today we kind of wanna talk about really drilling down into the conversation, like could ultimately conflict management will come to a really hard.
Conversation, and this is where you get nervous and you get scared. I think about there was a, particular [00:02:00] person that was attending our church that, so man was driving. My life crazy. and so he would behind my back talk really bad, about me and everything that I was doing, and, and so I, it came to a head.
When it continued to happen, and as you know, Bob, I read the book of Proverbs every day, whatever day of the month it is. I read that chapter and I remember I got a particularly nasty voicemail from this guy and we had been, we'd been working through a Matthew 18 church discipline process, and we had gotten to the point that we were probably gonna have to ask this guy.
To no longer be a part of our church. We'd done all the steps. We've had the witnesses, we'd had the meetings, we'd had all these things. and and early in the morning I wake up and I had not yet built this habit in my life, of which I have now, of, I don't look at my phone until after my quiet time. I highly recommend [00:03:00] that as a habit.
don't look at your phone. And this is precisely why, I looked at my phone and there was this long, nasty voicemail. and I mean, just horrible. I mean, just flat out calling me a horrible pastor and a horrible person and all these things. and I was like, all right, Lord, I can't, I can't call this man back yet.
I need some time on the word. So I open up Proverbs and it happened to be the 22nd day of the month. And I read out of Proverbs, chapter 22, verse 10, drive out a scoffer and strife will go out and quarreling and abuse will cease. And I thought, Amen. Yes, Lord. All right. It's time. And, and so, so we scheduled the meeting and, I'm not normally one who is nervous about conflict as much as some, I feel fairly confident in conflict and I don't like it, but I, I.
Feel like I can keep myself, you know, calm and we can drill down to the conversation of what we need to. And, but for whatever reason, man, this one got under my skin and I was really [00:04:00]nervous. And so I fasted for, a day or two and I. Man, you know, you can pray the Psalms of the day and there's, you know, a whole way you can do that.
Man. I prayed every s i, you know, in, in the book about praying scripture and it talks about, you know, there's five songs for every day and you can skim 'em and pick one and pray that, man, I prayed all five and I and I read Proverbs again and I had lots of people praying for me. And we had a meeting with me and some other elders and this guy, and had to have a pretty crucial.
Conversation. and it was, it was so hard and so difficult, and I think this is where the wheels start to fall off for a lot of pastors is these crucial conversations. And so, you know, last week you pointed us to such a great resource, Michael Hare, when Church Conflict happens, you've got another one for us that, I've really enjoyed Crucial Conversations and I love the subtitle.
Tools for talking when the stakes are high. and, and so talk to us about what is exactly, what is a crucial conversation [00:05:00] and why are they so hard?
Bob Bumgarner: Okay. Well, first of all, thanks for your transparency. I think all of us can relate. We all have those stories and some of us wish we were as spiritual as you were in our preparation for that, but, God is good even when we mess up. So anyway, but you ask a very, a really good question.
First of all, this comes from the book, crucial Conversations. There are several additions I would suggest if you're gonna buy the book, get the final addition. They've got, they put some new things in there that are, are really, good. But anyway, um, a crucial conversation. Is any conversation where you know, there will be opposing opinions where there's strong emotions.
And when the stakes are high and the stakes are high, means this, the outcome really matters. And so, Jimbo, this can, I mean, you and I get to work together, we can be having a meeting and then all of a sudden we can find ourselves in the middle of a crucial conversation. Husbands and wives can be having a nice evening at home and all of a sudden, they have [00:06:00] differing opinions and strong emotions and stakes are high.
It can be with your kids. It can, you know, so the thing that I love about this tool is that it really deals with what we have to do every day and let's have conversations with people. I think the reason crucial conversations are so hard is because, well, number one, we don't know how to. And so when they show up, the fight or flight brain, the lizard brain kicks in. and some of us have been brought up in homes where fighting was the thing you did. You yelled and got mad and you put somebody in their place and that's how you quote, won the argument. or some of us have been raised in places where, giving in or being a little bit passive.
Is kind of the expected, thing. and so we choose, what's easy, what we're used to, over actually sharing the truth in, in love. Sometimes we do it, because we don't have a long memory, you know, so for [00:07:00] instance, Jimbo, if you're my pastor and someone comes to you and says, you know, Bob did something this last weekend at the D Now, he didn't have the air conditioner on when we got back here.
You know, something like that. And, you can either immediately think, well, Bob's irresponsible, or you can ask yourself the question, what's Bob's normal pattern? Of behavior when he's doing d and l weekends and you can't think of another time when I forgot to turn on the air conditioning or whatever.
And so sometimes because of who says things to us, we choose a recent event overlooking at the whole pattern, if you will. And then sometimes, again, going back to what we talked about a little bit last week, we end up having a difficult, a crucial conversation about a symptom and not about the root cause.
so all of those things are why it's hard for us sometimes to have crucial conversations.
JimBo Stewart: appreciate you that you brought up that, you know, That [00:08:00] conversation I brought up as an example in the beginning, I had days to prepare, right? And I had time, and I knew walking into this, it was gonna be a crucial conversation. but I appreciate you bringing out like, it, it can happen on the spot and you.
Are not expecting it. All of a sudden something sets it off and you go, oh, oh, whoa. We have now entered into, a, a zone I was not mentally prepared for, and you don't have time to fast and pray the Psalms and, and get a prayer people around you. and so, and I even appreciate you talking about that. You know, what is Bob's normal pattern of behavior?
What's their normal pattern of behavior? How do you, I think sometimes when. Take something as an offense, we will jump to a conclusion that assumes the worst motive and the worst intent of that person, or the worst interpretation of, of what they've said. And we think, I don't know how to interpret this any other way than flat [00:09:00] out betrayal.
and so where, where's that coming from and how do. In that moment, take that thought captive as scripture tells us to, and set that aside. And how do we end that moment when we, and immediately just take, IM like a offense. How do we shift that so that we know that we can have a conversation in a way that is productive and helpful?
Bob Bumgarner: Yeah. So first of all, Jimbo, you have to be self-aware, right? You have to know, why am I talking louder, , why am I talking faster? You know, why is it that I was talking about an idea and now I feel. Anger
toward a
person.
JimBo Stewart: heat? I mean, I feel heat in
Bob Bumgarner: Yeah, yeah. , you know, so you do have to be, you have to be self-aware.
You have to kind of know what your, what your triggers, what your triggers are. And, one of the things you're, you're trying to do, if, if you. . you want to take control, if you will, [00:10:00] and ask your, and sometimes you can't pause in the moment, but you have to ask your, you, you ask yourself this question, why am I feeling this way? What has just happened, and, and I know you've done this, I've done it. We've had a conversation in our head when something else is going on, on the outside. another thing that you, that you can do or is, is to think about what story am I telling myself? Like, wow, they just said, You know, X, Y, Z or, or whatever.
What is it that, what is it that made, that just made what he said, feel like an attack instead of something that could be, could be helpful. And so, what I have found, or not what I found, but what Crucial Conversations says is they actually call it the Fool's Choice. The Fool's choice is when I believe in the heat of the moment that everything is either or.
like in, in other words, I either can solve this problem or we can be friends, but I can't do both. And so one of the things they talk about the [00:11:00] fool's choice is what they call the elusive. so another way to manage that conversation in the middle, when you feel like somebody's put you in an either or choice, then you can actually ask what does an and question.
Look like, you know, so in other words, hey guys, I gotta tell you, we are gonna get . For those of you who were here last week, we had a Peace Lilly illustration. So lemme go back to that. so, that'll give you a prompt to go back and listen. But, but Jimbo, back to that particular idea, you could have said, Hey, we're gonna get rid of the peace lilies.
or you could say, Hey, we're gonna get rid of the peace lilies and we are still gonna, we're gonna find a way to honor people who have been very important to our church.
JimBo Stewart: Hmm.
Bob Bumgarner: And immediately the temperature goes down on that because what you've done is now get this, you've actually by saying that you have revealed your motive. So one of the ways to deescalate a conversation [00:12:00] is to, as quickly as possible reveal the outcome you're looking for. So in that conversation, I would've been revealing, I wanna do something about the peace lilies, and I also wanna be friends with you two ladies.
And all of a sudden now we can have a, a conversation.
Jimbo, one of the things that the research of Crucial Conversations has. Is that when it comes to these kinds of conversations, which you will probably have one sometime this week, you will either talk it out or you will act it out. So if you talk it out, that means that you work through the emotions of it and, and actually you can go to lunch afterwards.
Acting it out means that you swallow and you don't talk about it, and then what happens is you begin seeing that other person through the lens. Of that conversation. So for instance, if there's a we're talking replanting. If there's somebody who was supposed to do something [00:13:00] and they didn't do it, but, and you were really counting on it, and what you don't know is that their son got in trouble at school and that parent had to go and navigate that unexpected problem and they couldn't order the thing or pick up the thing or be on time.
and you don't talk it out. You never know that they had a good reason. But what you do is you begin to look at them as somebody who doesn't follow through on their commitments, and so what ends up happening is well, not ends up happening. It's just a truth that you either talk it out in a safe way or you begin to act it out in the way that you treat another person, the other person.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, my wife and I talk about it. We've learned in our marriage, so the phrase we use is, the thing is not the. .
Bob Bumgarner: Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: and, so, you know, when you talk about getting to the root of the symptom and what, what's actually happening. And what we found, as we have worked on our own marriage, helped others work on their marriages, or we have worked in replanting and we've helped [00:14:00] deal with conflict within the church that I was pastoring or with other churches or other, we talked.
replant your couples sometimes that are going through conflict within their church, and they'll talk about how this person blew up about some specific thing. And what we always say is, is typically the thing is not actually the thing, whatever it was that, that, looked like the explosion may actually.
It's really just be the tip of the iceberg. And there's something underneath that. and so in the, in this book, crucial Conversations, they make reference to the fact that we don't really make our decisions in those moments based on facts that we see or that we hear, but the stories that we tell ourselves about those facts drill down on that a little bit for.
Bob Bumgarner: Okay, so, one of the thing, you're either gonna act out your, to your point, you're either gonna act out your feelings or you're going to talk out your feelings. And, I have found, especially in church world, we don't [00:15:00] have a good vocabulary. For talking about our feelings. So if we are disappointed or frustrated, we don't have good words for that.
So we say that we're mad or we say that we're angry. And there's a big difference between being frustrated about something and being angry about something. So, the reason that's important is because what they call the path to action in crucial conversations is it's an arrow that they have that they say we hear and we hear or we see.
So, and then it doesn't go straight to action. There are two things that happen between hearing and seeing and acting, and that is we tell a story to ourselves. And so Jimbo, if you're a pastor and you come from another church, you're a replant pastor. You come from another church where you've gotten in trouble for something that has happened, and now something similar happens.
All of a sudden you hear this and then you begin to, you replay that tape in your mind and you, you attribute motives to a story. [00:16:00] That didn't even happen at this church. And so what happens is you begin to think these people are gonna do to you what the last people did. And so you begin to feel scared, afraid, afraid, mad, whatever.
And then your action actually is in proportion to this story that you tell yourself. So one of the reasons that we need to seek forgiveness and restoration of these relationships is that stories accumulate and if you've got a bunch of unresolved stories, that Satan has a whole library of negative stories that you can tell yourself when something, when something happens, and there's no, and there's no freedom.
there's just no freedom in that. So your emotions usually are the result of the stories that you tell yourself, about what just happened.
JimBo Stewart: how do we identify when that's happening? When we're reacting to that story, and how do we one identify it, and then what do we do from there in that moment, right? So it's in the moment the, the heat of the conflict has started. We find [00:17:00] ourselves telling a story, believing a story, and re ready to respond and react.
to the story we've told ourselves. How can we quickly identify that before it hits our mouth? and then what can we do to take a better next step?
Bob Bumgarner: that is a great question. I, I hope I can. I, I'm, I'm not sure that in the moment, well, let, let's do it this way. when you're processing a story, and it be, and the story is actually what causes you to feel your face be hot, your palms be sweaty, you know, fear to be in your, your chest, to tighten, those kind of things if you're in control of the meeting.
I would say, Hey, this is a good point for us to, to stop. I wanna think about this for a second. I need to do some processing before I respond. Can we take a 15 minute break? then what I would say to you is, or whoever the person is, if there's a way for you to go take a 10 minute walk. The science on a 10 minute walk and what it does in your brain is [00:18:00] really, really important.
So get some space. Talk to yourself again, self coaching. Hey, what, what am I feeling threatened about? Bill has never been. if you're talking to Bill, you know, bill has never done that, and yet I'm in my head. I'm hearing this voice. I'm gonna, I'm not gonna attribute motive to what Bill has said, and I'm gonna see, you might need to ask forgiveness.
You might need to ask God to, to help you. I mean, now , the Crucial Conversations book, it's not a Christian book, but it is a book that really generate, really operates on some scripture that they may not, that they may not know about . And so, you can create some space to help you deescalate and then to come back into the, you know, into the story, into the crucial conversation.
and then at that point, just go ahead and calmly say what you would say without the judgment. and then see what happens as a result of that. One of the things that to do as well [00:19:00] is to watch the body language of the people that you're talking to. if they fold their arms, if they start, you know, not making eye contact with you if they're, if they start giving you verbal and n and non-verbal indications that they feel threaten.
If dialogue shuts down, all those are indications that the, the space is no longer safe for you or them, to have a conversation. I will say this to you, Jimbo, one of the things about having a friend like you that, that's in several meetings, like we're in a lot of meetings together. and I trust you, they, one of the things that I think would be super helpful is for you is for you to say, Hey, Bob.
I felt a little bit stressed out when we were talking to that pastor. What was your read on me while I was, was doing that? Let me give you a real example. I was a executive pastor at a large church in town. My daughter was the, um, the preschool person of this, large multi-site church. And we were in a meeting and the pastor.
says, Hey guys, we need to go [00:20:00] into the conference room and, and have a meeting. And there was about 15 of us. And so we all went in to ha and he said something, I don't even remember what it was. but he said it and then he said these words, he said, and Bob's gonna finish the conversation. Bob's gonna lead the meeting.
Now, unfortunately I didn't know that. Like, I didn't know that that was gonna happen in that moment. It, he, he wasn't trying to, it probably showed a level of confidence that he had in me that I didn't feel in that moment. so I wasn't exactly sure what he wanted to have done in that conversation, but it certainly was a crucial conversation because the stakes are high, opinions vary.
So anyway. I lead the meeting. Okay. We get to what feels like a decent conclusion. My daughter and I were driving home that night and I said to her, I said, Hey, tell me about that meeting. Did you think it went well? And she said this. She said, were you mad? and I said, no, I wasn't mad. And she said, you should have told your face.
And, um, she talked to me about this [00:21:00] acronym that says if you're resting, sometimes your face isn't cheerful. And, And she says, you have that face. and here's what I found out really from feedback, was that, when I'm concentrating and I'm unsure, I have a very serious look on my face, but it's, I'm not mad.
I'm just really concentrating, in the moment. Well, here's the thing. I was over 50 years old when I found that out. Did you hear me? I was over 50 years old and nobody had ever cared enough about me to say. , did you know that when you're concentrating your face can be that way? ? Well, here's the, I I'm, that's partly silly, but my point is, seeking feedback and I hadn't sought feedback cuz I didn't know to seek it.
about , about that. And then I read in a magazine, I think it was, fast Company about two weeks later that said people that have amazing haircuts like mine, are always assumed more intense than other people in the room. So that was good for me to know. So now when I'm gonna lead a. I actually sometimes at the top of it, put a post-it note or a little smiley face in the upper right hand [00:22:00]corner just to remind myself, Hey, you know, chill out while you're, you know, while you're talking.
so I think the answer to your question about how do we know is when you get the opportunity, ask for feedback. , watch your, your own, how you feel. Like what are your, what are your trigger, you know, your warning signs. And then watch the body language of other people. When dialogue shuts down, people don't think it's safe anymore because they're only gonna talk when it's safe.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think we've gotta build a culture of operating within the fruit of the spirit and identify when we're not and know how to step away. And that can be hard and scary to, to admit, Hey, I need to. , I need to take a minute, before we continue cuz it, it feels like weakness. And you think that person's in when you're in lizard brain and you think that person's the enemy and you're gonna project weakness by asking for a break.
but that's where I remember that Jesus is the hero and not us.
Bob Bumgarner: Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: We've gotta operate in this, in the throughthe, the Spirit. Uh, just as we land the. , are there any [00:23:00] more kind of secrets you would share about having crucial conversations or final tips, final words to the replant pastor that is stepping into a crucial conversation.
Bob Bumgarner: Yeah, I, I really do. And, and you nailed it when you said the fruit of the spirit. So there's a side of this. That we don't need to be afraid because just like, uh, God told Moses, now, therefore, go and I will be with your mouth and I will teach you what you should say. There's a, there's a dynamic of this that like, you're not in this conversation alone.
You're enabled by the Holy Spirit, but you need to be prayed up. You need to be, you know, walking with him, to have the confidence that he will in fact be there with you in a tangible kind of way. A friend of. Rick Marks, Dr. Rick Marks, he has a four word, formula that really, really helps me. And basically what he says is this, he says, humility is the result of the equation of empathy, respect, and goodwill.[00:24:00]
So in the moment, , you create safety with other people when you are perceived as someone who operates out of humility and not out of power. humility is its own kind of power, but you get what I mean. I'm the not power in the sense of position or, you know, education or wealth or whatever. And, and here's, here's how that works.
So in essence, what Rick is saying is Jimbo, when I, I interact with. I sense that you're humble when you're empathetic toward me, when you have goodwill toward me and when you respect. So when you, when you say to me, when you reflect back to me that you know how I feel, even listen, you can be empathetic and still disagree with the person sitting in front.
JimBo Stewart: Hmm.
Bob Bumgarner: you cannot want the p you sh. You can know and think it's crazy that they'd have 30 piece lilies on the stage, but you can still be empathetic that it's important to them. So [00:25:00] that's what you're looking for. How do, how can you demonstrate genuine and don't fake it? Don't try to fake it. Be genuinely empathetic with them, and the whole fool's choice goodwill means that I want what you. I want us to do something to honor the people, and I wanna be good friends. I wanna be friends with you. And respect means that I talk to you on a horizontal plane. I don't talk down to you if I have some Bible verses. I don't try to Bible verse you into. Submission. If I have 20 years experience, I don't try to tell you all of my anecdotes about why I should know better than you.
I just treat you with respect. So the so in my mind, crucial conversations is really about a seven or eight step process. If you read the book about how to have safe dialogue, that really could be from a Christian perspective, summed up in this idea of creating an environment where [00:26:00] humility. through goodwill, respect, and empathy.
JimBo Stewart: That's a good word. I appreciate you doing a couple episodes with us while the other Bob is traveling and standing in. You've done a good job of being proxy Bob for a couple of
Bob Bumgarner: Thank you. awesome. I'm glad to do it. I'm always glad, I love to see what God's doing through replant, uh, bootcamp. I love church planting, but I, I believe we have to do as much in the area of replanting as we do in the area of planting. And as somebody who has replanted a church straight out a seminary, I, I understand the pain and pleasure of the whole experience, and so, go you guys and, I appreciate your ministry, the rep planners.
Hey Boot Campers we’re back in action but this time, with another Bob, the Lead Missional Strategist of First Coast Churches, Bob Bumgarner.In this EP Jimbo and Bob get down to the important work of discussing how to deal with Church conflict. They recommend a great book-When Church Conflict Happens. Here are some of the great highlights.* When conflict happens – you are not a failure. * Conflict always presents opportunities for new thinking, responses, and breakthrough. * There are three facets or types of conflict + Unhealthy – when conflict goes unrecognized + Benign – when church disagreements occur because of oversight + Healthy – a disagreement that is spotted and responded to in a biblical manner
According to Hare, there are are five levels of conflict. Knowing them will help you navigate conflict in a way that can lead to productive healthy progress.1. Personal – conflict occurring inside of me personally 2. Interpersonal – conflict occurring between two people 3. Intragroup – conflict that occurs within a group of people 4. Intergroup – conflict occurring between different groups 5. Structural – something within the organization that creates conflict
Check out the rest of this EP for more great info and helpful tips on dealing with conflict and a coming EP Crucial Conversations. Don’t let the inner conflict of having a less than great website get you down. Contact our great sponsor, One Eighty Digital and leverage their know how to help your church impact the community by accurately telling your church’s story. JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Alright, here we are back at the bootcamp. Bob, I hope you're ready for the next episode. And listeners, I hope you're ready for a different Bob. normally when I say, Bob, I hope you're ready for the next episode. That would indicate I'm talking to the illustrious, the beautiful. Butterflies kisses singing Bob Bickford, but he was not able to jump in on this call because he had some good family stuff going on and he had to dip away.
But we decided to push ahead and we brought another Bob, in his place for today. I'm not cheating on you Bickford. It's just the other Bob in my life. Bob Bumgarner.
Bob Bumgarner: Hey, I, it's good to be here. I'm sorry to miss Bob, number one, but I'm glad to be, I feel weird saying Bob number two. But anyway, the second Bob.
JimBo Stewart: It's always good to have you on here. our listeners love having you. We love having you on here. You always have great wisdom, so, grateful to have you Again, I think this is what the, I dunno, this is what the third or fourth time we've had you
Bob Bumgarner: Yeah. At least third. Yep.
JimBo Stewart: I remember, I think the first time we were [00:01:00] it, we had just talked, for some reason we were talking about burnt ends and how Bob Bickford and I had just gotten back from Kansas City and for whatever reason we went to a restaurant that had, sausage burnt ends.
And I couldn't, for the life of me figure out how that could be a real thing.
Bob Bumgarner: Well you, until you've tasted them, you don't know
JimBo Stewart: Well, good man. I'm glad to have you on here. We're gonna talk about a topic that comes up often when, I know for me, as I have talked to pastors a across the country and in our great city, the bold city of Jacksonville, and on the first coast, I'm sure you've encountered multiple. conversations that have brought this idea of conflict up anytime we're leading change, anytime we're leading a church, especially in a revitalization or a replant.
Where we're really changing the direction of the church, it's inevitable that church conflict is gonna happen. And so you've turned me onto a book that, I love the title when church Conflict Happens because it, it insinuates that. It's not an if,[00:02:00] or it might happen, but it's gonna happen. church conflict.
Just real quick, introduce the book to us.
Bob Bumgarner: Yeah. Michael Hare is somebody that, that I became introduced to when there was a church in town that was actually hiring him to come in and. and do some consultation with them. It's a church that I respect, a very biblical church, and they brought him in and I had the opportunity to do lunch with him and just really appreciated some of the insight and the attitude he had.
I mean, one of the things that I think is super important is, that he brings out is that conflict does not mean failure. I mean, so you're gonna. . And so you gotta get your mind out of the fact that I have failed if I'm experiencing conflict. So that's just one of the good, the gold nuggets that was in there that led me to actually want to, kind of drill down and see what he had to say.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Drilling down, he said he talked about the opportunity of conflict. What is, what does he mean when he says the opportunity of conflict?
Bob Bumgarner: Yeah, so one of the interesting things about conflict is that conflict actually kind of unfreezes our thinking, and [00:03:00] we are actually, when we're in the middle of conflict, we're actually willing to consider. Options or changes that we haven't been, willing to consider. And that is if we, again, don't see conflict as failure, but just as something that once worked, no longer worked, or two opinions trying to share the same space, whatever the problem is.
conflict handled correctly can actually be an opportunity for movement getting unstuck and actually break.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. I've experienced, I. on a spectrum, the way that we have dealt with conflict, wrongly based a little bit off of our personalities and our wiring, but I think there are some people that are so direct, that they, they kind of speak the truth without love. And, they may say the right thing and they just hammer in and, just expect you to course correct because they told you the truth.
Bob Bumgarner: Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: And then on the other side, I, I've experienced people who are so kind and tenderhearted that, out. A motivation to love. Well, they end up so [00:04:00] indirectly addressing everything and sugarcoating it, that they end up not actually telling the truth fully because there's so much love. And I think about, you know, in Ephesians when it tells us to speak the truth in love, how does, how does Michael address those, those personality swings, dynamics, or.
Bob Bumgarner: Yeah, he does. I mean, basically what he says is anytime that we take something that the Bible puts together and try to separate it, we're gonna mess up. So it's share the truth in love. You can't just share truth. You can't just share love. It has to, they hold each other intention. I, I think it was him that talked about, and if it wasn't, it still, it.
Underlying in there, but talked about truth and love, like being a smoothie. Like when you, when you drink a smoothie, you don't, like, if it's a banana strawberry smoothie, there's just this new flavor, , you know, but you taste both, but they're not distinct. So truth and love is the same way. and being able to, Really understand, your bias.
Understand that you, you were born with or socialized [00:05:00] toward a particular bias. I'm a high D or ID in the disc. And so for me, I actually feel comfortable disrupting things. Well, that's, the majority of the Christian world is not like that. So I have to actually manage myself well and start with things like empathy and those kind of things in order for me to be able to share the truth.
JimBo Stewart: One of the other things he says is, uh, he talked about the three facets of conflict. What does he, what are the three facets? What does he mean by.
Bob Bumgarner: what he, he says there's really three kinds of conflicts or three facets. There's unhealthy conflict, there's benign conflict, and then there's healthy conflict. So unhealthy conflict means that something, a problem goes unrecognized until factions in the church. Begin to develop. And so sometimes Jimbo, to your point, it.
It goes unrecognized because we don't wanna see it. And, so our personality can make it to where we either engage too fast without hearing all the facts, or we engage too slow letting. Things fester to where even factions can conform. benign conflict, on the other [00:06:00] hand is when, church conflict, when churches agreements, occur because of organizational oversights.
And we're gonna talk a little bit more about that. But in other words, it wasn't the result of two people, fussing about a particular thing, but something. Sort of unintentional and a gap that nobody actually noticed. And then of course, healthy conflict is a, is a disagreement that are spotted and then they're responded to in love and in truth, and honoring, trying to honor both sides of the equation as much as, uh, as possible in a biblically constructive manner.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. A couple years ago we had, Tony Marita on to talk about his book, Conflict management. And I told you one of my favorite conflict management stories, and it's been enough years. I think I can bring it up again, but it just still cracks me up. I call it the War of the Peace lilies. And when, when I first arrived at, uh, the Church of the Lord allowed me to be a part of replanting, they had a longstanding tradition of every time there was a funeral.
Of someone in the church, [00:07:00] they would gift, the church would gift that family a Peace Lilly. well, Bob, a Peace Lilly's not a small plant, it's a
Bob Bumgarner: Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: Plant
Bob Bumgarner: Yes,
JimBo Stewart: and the, the tradition ended up over time becoming that the family would then donate the Peace Lilly back to the church in honor of their loved one.
So now Peace Lilly is sentimentally attached to a dying per, someone that died that they love. And it ends up on the platform on the stage. And over time, this church had a lot of people die. . And so when I showed up, it was like a wild safari rainforest on the I. I had the clear room just to walk up on the platform and that was fine.
I was gonna deal with that. But the first conflict I had to manage was two ladies in our church. Scheduled a meeting to come to my office for me to mediate their conflict because one had passed off the responsibility of caring for the [00:08:00] myriad of peace lilies we had on the stage and was not pleased with how the new lady was managing the care for these peace lilies.
And I, I remember sitting in my. As I really thought, oh, this is gonna lead to what is really the disagreement and, you know, surely we're not actually having a conflict mediation meeting over peace lilies of all things. And, but we were, we were having this meeting and it was, and I could not get. Either lady to see each other's perspective at all.
And so their resolution to that meeting was, well, Jimbo, you will now from now on water, the piece Lil's. And I said, no, that's not gonna be the resolution out of here. We're gonna have, if you, if you put that on me, they're not gonna get watered. And sure enough, they didn't get cared for. Well, I didn't know what to do because each piece of Lilly is now attached to a loved member that has passed.
So another lady, a very direct person in our church, I show up to, told me I'm gonna handle this one day. [00:09:00] And I just said, okay, I don't know. I don't know what to do about this. But they were dying. So I show up to Sunday morning church one day, early in the morning, and they're all gone. Every one of them.
Is gone. And I immediately knew who handled it. And so I just said, I hope you've not gotten me fired. and sure enough, it was, it was a big deal, and one lady wouldn't talk to another lady for a long time. So, I mean, I, I don't know which tier you had put that in, healthy, benign, or unhealthy, but it was, it was surprisingly robust of a
Bob Bumgarner: Well, I always wondered where Disney got their idea for Rainforest Cafe and I now I know it was from your church stage.
JimBo Stewart: Well, at the core of the book is, is about what he calls the levels of conflict dynamics. What help, help us understand what's most helpful about understanding the levels of dynamics.
Bob Bumgarner: Okay, so when you think about, the levels of dynamics, really there are [00:10:00]always, what are presenting issues. That's kind of the visible symptom of the conflict. But then there are the core i, the, the root cause. So think of it, there's the visible symptom and the root cause and what you have to do.
is you have to shift from the presenting the visible symptom to the root cause, or you'll find yourself solving the problem over and over and over again cuz you're just addressing the symptoms. And so what he does, he did in his five levels, he's got these kind of concentric circles, if you will. What he did is he gave us a tool from, to move from reacting to responding by shifting gears.
And there are, he identifies five levels through his research. One is what he calls the in. Personal level. So that's the le that's what's going on inside of me. Then the interpersonal level is between two people, and then there's the intragroup level where it's, you know, with, there's a conflict within a group within the deacons or within the Peace Lilly [00:11:00] committee,
And then there's the intergroup level, which is between the, the deacons and the elders, if you will. And then there's the structural level. So the first thing he. Is he kind of, gave us a way to do. Post-mortem, I guess, or a pre-mortem, if you will, on the conflict. So we can know if it's something that's just going on inside of me, or if it's something between groups and when, you know, the level of dynamics, there's actually a strategy for engaging each one of those.
And the thing I like about the book, . Well, I like a lot of things about the book, but the first half of the book is kind of the philosophy and the second half of the book is the field manual. And so it'll actually will tell you how to, mine out some of those kind of things in the Field man manual at the back of the book.
But the gold, the book is built around these, these five levels of conflict and, and the idea of how to separate presenting issues from the root causes.
JimBo Stewart: So let's take the piece Lilly example. How could I take those levels of dynamics and use [00:12:00] some things out of the field manual and dive deeper into that conversation with those ladies or whoever else I would need to involve in that to to start identifying some of those levels and moving forward towards peaceful progress.
Bob Bumgarner: Yeah, that's a great, it's a great question. What I would, say is you could have started by listening empathetically to the ladies, which I'm sure I am sure you did. listen, empathetically to the ladies. Talk to them about how you, how important it is that we remember people who have made significant contributions to our church and then, actually help them to see that.
it's that you're not against those memories of those people. but just there's no more room to stand on the stage. And so you could ask the question. So, help me to solve this problem if we want to. solve this. how can we do it? one of the things to think about is sometimes it's not either or Sometimes the symptom [00:13:00] is either we keep the lilies or we hate the people that, used to be here.
But if you as the person, as the pastor involved in this conflict, could say, Hey, how can we do this? How can we, honor the people that ha and the families that have given these peace lilies? and at the same time, not have a jungle in our auditorium. Sometimes just by posing that question, the both, and it allows them to, to expand their thinking.
and one of the things that the level can do what was trying to happen is they were trying to set up an interpersonal conflict with the pastor . Like they didn't know that, but they were making. That you were either wrong and they were right, or they were wrong, and you were right. And so just by being able to think in those levels, it kind of gives you the confidence to know, that you're tracking in a way that will ultimately get to some kind of resolution of the conflict.
JimBo Stewart: Hmm. [00:14:00] So I think conflict's so hard to deal with and so many pastors and Christian leaders really don't like to deal with conflict very well. so one of the things he says is that churches get better at walking through conflict when they demystify it. Talk to us about what does that mean to demystify conflict in the.
Bob Bumgarner: Okay. okay, so first of all, Oh, one of the things that I think is, well, the first step and his levels really help with this, is that he found that 90% of the time, now I get that that's a big number. 90% of the time, the underlying or root cause of a conflict was at the organizational or structural level.
So that means that if, two people are fighting in a church, If you dig deep, 90 per nine out of 10 times, what you're gonna find is what the church has caused the, their organizational structure has caused the conflict. Like there's something that's not been [00:15:00] stated in the, that makes the people be at conflict with each other.
In other words, it's not truly interpersonal. They're fighting because the children's ministry wants space that the student ministry thought they had. or, the bus was available for this group, but the other group thought that they had it. Those are, those would be examples of structural kinds of things.
So demystifying means that the first root cause we look for is, is there a structural reason that these people are actually having, this conflict? The second thing in demystifying conflict is really just shifting the paradigm from avoiding it to as something. To, you'll avoid it because it reveals failure to, um, doing it as a way to gain insight into what is, into what's happening.
You know, again, looking for God-given opportunities for growth. So think about this. Go to Acts chapter six. Jimbo knows that I get a lot of gold out of Acts chapter six, but part of, if you think about it, they hear [00:16:00] about a conflict in the food distribution. And they don't just kick it down the road.
They actually do something between verse one and two. They have an offsite or something. They have something where they talk about it and, and they come back with a solution. They do things like reassign jobs. They enlist new leaders, they train new leaders, they commission them. And what we see is that as a result of demystifying the conflict and actually saying, okay, we have a, we have a food distribution problem because we have two different kinds of people now that may have a little bit of racial tension in it that we can.
Solve it. And, and so we demystify by identifying the level, by actually thinking it's an opportunity for growth. And sometimes we d well and, and we dis demystify it by thinking Kingdom advance and not just church advance. So how do we, how do we manage this with. Kingdom thinking. So, Jimbo, on [00:17:00] several of your podcasts you've mentioned the kingdom commitment that it takes.
In other words, it's the overarching commitment that's kind of an application of Matthew 6 33. To seat first the kingdom of God. But you have to bring that down into the, into the church and it's the point of surrender. Like, in other words, we'll say what we need to say, but at the end of the day, we're gonna do good.
We're gonna agree on, we're gonna pre agree. That we'll seek a kingdom, alternative. And here's what happens. When you demystify. When you demystify, you go from helpless to hopeless. You go from feeling like you've lost something all the time to that you can actually gain something. You go from fear to being filled with spiritual optimism.
Think about this, if you, Jimbo, I'm sure that you and Ara Audra have had a fight at some point. and, and just like Tina and I have, and here's the thing, we've endured some pretty tough conversations. So guess what? When the next conflict comes up, [00:18:00] we don't freak out cuz we've demystified it. We know we can walk through this.
It's not something, it's not a mystery. It's not like there are actual things you can do. You can show empathy, you can show respect, you can exhibit goodwill. And all of those things are, you know, brought out in the, in the deeper reading of the.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. One of the stories we tell in premarital counseling talking about this idea of over time, learning how to do that, have the tools and so that demystifies it. I think one of our first conflicts ever as a married couple. Was, and, I can say this out loud, Audrey gives me permission. this is one of the few stories where, she was the one that made a mistake.
it's happened I think three times in almost 20 years of marriage and, early on something, whatever it was, just as we got married, Mundar department like. , she just like went on autopilot of just on her own, doing her own thing and, and really didn't pour into invest in our relationship much for, a, a month or [00:19:00] so, and it was creating conflict within me and I, I didn't know how to talk about it and I probably didn't pick the right time or way to address it, and I just said, Hey, I don't know.
I feel like I'm the only one really pursuing and fighting. This marriage right now. Cause I would try to have date nights and things like that. and she heard immediately because I said that what she heard was, we're already getting divorced. Like it's, it's over the whole thing's done, like, And so early on in our marriage conflict was really scary in, you know, having conflict.
Early on meant it was gonna ruin probably the next week of my life. Right? Like it was, it was gonna have long impacts and it'd be hard to do anything cuz we just didn't have the tools to navigate the conversation well and come to a agreed upon solution and understanding each other's perspectives and.
Through mentors and counselors and resources, [00:20:00] we have gained a lot of tools. And I can say now that you know, we're almost 20 years into marriage and our conflicts are largely very peaceful now, because we're not scared to hit things head on. And, you know, with that, when it comes to leading a church and replant on the characteristics of a replant that we've identified, One of the characteristics that came out of, the research that Dr.
Hu Steven Hudson did out of his PhD paper for Southern Seminary was a willingness to confront, and that he found that pastors that lead churches that can see a new day and be healthy again, have to be willing to. Conflict and confront people. And so we define willingness to confront as the replant pastor with a willingness to confront is able to willingly, not eagerly navigate conflict with directness, love, humility, patience and wisdom driven [00:21:00] by a love for the church and her members.
And it has to, and, and it has to be driven by that kingdom commitment, that idea of, I love this church too. to let this become a cancer and slowly come in and take over everything. so what would you say, just in the last couple of minutes here, what are the kind of high point things you would tell a, a pastor of a smaller church?
A replant, you know, dozen, couple dozen people are a part of the church and sometimes those people don't have. The spiritual maturity to handle these conversations well, and he finds himself in the midst of some, some undercurrent of conflict happening in the church, and so he's Google searched what to do and somehow come across this podcast episode.
If you could just give just a couple of points of advice, what would that be?
Bob Bumgarner: Yeah, I think I, I would just call it, map the conflict. And what that [00:22:00]means to me is you gotta, you gotta kind of have two ways of listening. Listen to the symptoms. of the conflict. So you can be empathetic. and what that means is that you can, reflect back to them that you know how they feel.
So they share with you about the peace lilies and, you share that we're, we're gonna move them. And I know that, that, will be a disappointment to you, and I know that, that you feel like perhaps we're not honoring your, your deceased husband, but, you need to know that we do value him and, because of that, we're gonna have a Peace Lilly garden out in the back or some, you know, or in the front.
What? Whatever you, in other words, you in, you do something to show that you're, you're managing, not managing, you're expressing your empathy, but you're also listening for the, for the root cause. And you say to the same lady, that lost her husband, but I know that you. , you want us to be able to serve other widows that come here and you know that if we have 10 more flowers, I [00:23:00] won't be able to stand up here and preach.
And so we have to do something. So you, so you, you empathize, you, you map it out by empathizing and identifying, the root cause. And, and there's two things that I think that are also part of mapping. One of the reasons that a replant ought to skill up in conflict management resolution is because conflict is coming.
It's coming to a church near you, and if you, if you wait and you don't skill up, what'll end up happening? Your first conflict will be a big one.
JimBo Stewart: Mm-hmm.
Bob Bumgarner: On the other hand, if you skill up, you will spot it coming and you very well may be able to presolve the conflict. Somebody said in, in this idea of mapping conflict that we get the culture we create or the culture we allow. And so it's one thing to have a kingdom concept. Like it sounds real fun to have a kingdom concept until the first day it gets violated [00:24:00] and you actually have to do something about it.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bumgarner: but I can promise you this, if you don't chicken out in that moment, , all your conflict, all of your confrontations post, that will be easier because people will know then that you're actually creating something we're trying to create.
The reason you map out conflicts is you're trying to create space where it's safe for people to actually express. How they feel about different, you know, different things. And just to quote Peter Drucker about this culture idea, we, with the reason we need to create a culture that's safe is because culture will eat your evangelism strategy.
You're replanting strategy, you're reaching your community strategy for breakfast. If you, don't figure out how to create the culture that you, that you want, and if you don't, Map out this kingdom concept idea. you might actually put systems in place that can lead to conflict. Like in other words, one of the things that a conflict.[00:25:00]
a healthy church that deals with conflict in healthy ways. They actually kind of think through the systems they have and ask the question, where might conflict arise in this? And how, how can we, try to get a, and how can we try to get ahead of that? So those are a couple of things that I think are, are pretty crucial, when it comes to this whole conflict.
JimBo Stewart: That's such a good word. I appreciate you taking the time to be with us and, representing First Coast churches. You wanna see more resources from, from Bob. Where can, where can they go, to see what you're working on with First Coast Churches?
Bob Bumgarner: Yeah, thanks for asking. they can go to our website, which is first coast churches.com. And, if you go over to the. , tab that says how we help, there are all kinds of resources and it's going to be continually, expanding, as far as that's concerned. As a matter of fact, just from a conflict perspective, there's a disk profile there that, churches can take, because part of part of what causes conflict sometimes is the way that we, way our [00:26:00] personalities are.
And so I would encourage you to spend some time with your volunteer team or your. Staff team, whichever you, whichever you happen to have, and figure out some personality types and you know, just pay attention to what seems to be cause hot buttons with those people. We try to put some tools on there that might be helpful.
JimBo Stewart: Excellent and recommend, pick up a copy of When Church Conflict Happens by Michael Hare and work through that as well as it's gonna give you a lot deeper insight into this conversation and framework on how to, implement that in kind of that second half piece of it beyond the philosophy like Bob mentioned.
Thanks guys. Have a great day.
Bob Bumgarner: You bet. Take care.
The Bootcamp Boys are able to record from their own homes for this one.Replanter and Revitalizer Characteristic SurveyIn this thread, JimBo and Bob discuss the necessary ingredients for personal development and growth in any area of life. These include humility, teachability, self-awareness, integrity, and initiative. They emphasize the importance of being honest and owning up to mistakes, taking responsibility, and taking action to make things happen. They also recommend resources such as books on developing habits and perseverance. Overall, these qualities can help individuals become better leaders and achieve their goals in both personal and professional settings.The necessary ingredients for personal development in any area of life are:* Humility * Teachability * Self-awareness * Integrity * Initiative
Humility means acknowledging that you have room to grow and that others have something to offer. We can see the importance of humility in biblical passages such as Ephesians 4:2, James 4:10, and 1 Peter 5:5, which all emphasize the importance of humility. Bob notes that humility is the first touchstone for personal development and that being humble doesn't mean thinking less of oneself, but rather thinking of oneself less. He warns against assuming that one's presence alone will fix everything and emphasizes the importance of recognizing one's weaknesses and inexperience.Teachability involves being open to learning from others, even those who may not have as much experience as you. The second ingredient for personal growth in replanting and revitalizing a church is teachability, which is built upon humility. Teachability involves being willing to receive feedback, instruction, and correction, even if it is painful. Proverbs 13:18 and Proverbs 9 emphasize the importance of heeding reproof and instruction in order to become wiser and more skilled. Without teachability, growth is impossible.Self-awareness requires honest assessment (Romans 12) of your strengths and weaknesses, as well as your goals and motivations. Having a realistic assessment of your strengths and weaknesses, as well as an understanding of how others perceive you, can help you make more informed decisions and pursue growth opportunities that align with your abilities and interests.Integrity is about being honest with yourself and others, avoiding excuses, and owning up to mistakes. It's important to be honest with ourselves and others about our progress and performance, and not make excuses for our shortcomings. When we take ownership of our mistakes and take responsibility for our actions, we demonstrate integrity and earn the trust and respect of others. This is especially important for leaders, who are expected to set an example and inspire others to grow and improve. By being honest and owning our mistakes, we can become better versions of ourselves and gain the support and trust of those around us.Check out Your Future Self Will Thank You by Drew Dyck for more on self-control (affiliate link).Finally, initiative is the willingness to put in the work required to grow, taking action rather than waiting for others to prod you into it. If you want to grow, these ingredients are essential, and there are many resources available to help you develop them.Personal development and growth require a combination of these five ingredients: humility, teachability, self-awareness, integrity, and initiative. It's important to be honest with yourself and others about your progress and to take responsibility for your actions. And ultimately, growth requires initiative and hard work, putting in the necessary effort to achieve your goals. There are many resources available to help with personal development and developing good habits, but ultimately, it's up to you to take the first step and put in the work.JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp. Bob, I hope you're ready for the next episode. I'm excited. Actually, out of the last a a lot of episodes, we're actually both getting to record this one from our own domicile.
Bob Bickford: That is true. We have been on the road around the United States and back again.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah. So I, I'm excited to be here, sitting in my own chair, with my family just outside. So, you know, my kids are homeschooled. You might even hear them get a little rambunctious there on the other side of the door at some point.
Bob Bickford: Well, Jimbo, I'm, standing in my living room with my computer on my stereo cabinet, and my dogs are sleeping by the glass door, the storm door, and so you may hear them. Defend our house with all them in vigor. And so, you can edit them out of the podcast, but you might get a here or.
JimBo Stewart: There you go. I mean, your dogs are sweet, but they are pit bulls, and so if anybody you know broke into your house, I feel like as soon as they [00:01:00] saw two pit bulls, they would probably turn around and leave.
Bob Bickford: I know, you know, people are afraid of, some people are really afraid of pit bulls. We, speaking of, we were, um, you know, we were at an event in one of the speakers, I just mentioned, yeah, I adopted some dogs and one of 'em was young and, one was five years old. And he goes, oh, uh, what kind of dog? What kind of dogs are they?
He's probably expecting like a doodle or a schnauzer or something like that. And I said, pit bulls. And you, did you see him? He just kinda went. And he stepped back and then I, I felt like, I should have said, yeah, you know, well, we've found that, life in the trailer community with the double wide, that the pit bulls are, uh, a good security system. Not that there's anything wrong with living in a trailer community or living in a double wide. Have you seen some of the new, some of the new double wides, Jimbo? They're pretty.
JimBo Stewart: My sister-in-law actually has a new double wide, and it's, it is, it's pretty bougie.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. I mean, I live in a hundred and, I don't know, 13, 14 year old house. And, there's [00:02:00] a lot of amenities that I don't have that might be present in today's modern double wide.
JimBo Stewart: I bet so. I bet. So I've seen some really nice ones. Hey, today what I wanna talk about is, as we develop. Personal development plans and we think about how to grow in things. It's one of the things I love to think about and talk about and help people with is, is how do you identify areas where you need to grow and then how do you create a development plan?
And with the assessment that I created, and you know this, Bob, my heartbeat behind an assessment is ideally, I don't want to give you a yes or no. I really don't want to give you a pass or fail. What I would really prefer to do is say, Hey, here is the areas you could probably grow in that would help you do this even better.
Because I think when you do assessments and you give a pass or a fail, it's just so binary that it feels. Final. Like if, you get the No, it feels like, oh, well then I am not called to do this. I [00:03:00] thought I was called to do this, but I guess I'm not. Or if you get the yes, it can maybe make you feel like, oh, then I'm gonna be awesome at this and let me just, let me just run ahead and just do what I think I need to do.
And my philosophy is that all of us, every single one of us, have areas where we need to grow. And so even if it's a yes, it still I think should be a yes. Here is some suggestions of some ways that you could grow and a no. I would much prefer rather than just being a blanket no be a no, not right now, but if we could see some growth in these particular areas right.
than we could do that. And it's a little bit even of that leadership judo that we've talked about before of if I'd rather, I'd rather do something that moves you towards forward progress.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. I, I really think that's important for us to know every, every single one of us have areas of strength in areas of challenge or opportunity or weakness, however you wanna term it. And, [00:04:00] Our strengths can be strengthened and our challenges, opportunities, or weaknesses can be improved. So in the strength, we're looking at strengthening stuff.
On the other side of the scale, we're looking for improvement. We're not looking for perfection. And I may not go from a five to a a 10, but I can make some progress. And so what I would want to say to everyone is, is if you could take a long view, Mind. Keep that in mind and remember that even scripture says that he who began a good work in you is gonna carry it on to completion, right?
So what does that mean? Every single one of us is not everything we can be. But we can become more than we are right now through the grace of God. So I think those are some some really important things. And what I would just say is if you could go back to in your mindsets, particularly the guys here, if they played middle school sports, you probably had a coach with coaching shorts and a whistle who rode you hard.
Right and demeaned you in front of the whole middle school PE class or the football team [00:05:00]or whatever. You might be. Even having flashbacks as I, as I say this right now, but the coach was on you because he saw more in you, right? And he probably went about it in an old school negative way. But what we're trying to say is, hey, lean into those areas that you have opportunity to, to become aware of and work on 'em, and it's a good.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. I was a chaplain for a high school football team for a little while, and being a chaplain for a football team is a weird deal, man. Like, cuz it's a weird experience cause they would want me to, , you know, give like a devotional before the game and I'd be like, I, I don't know that you really want me to, like, my devotional is not gonna fire you up to go like, try to rip some guy's head off.
Like, and so, you know, and always cracked me up. Cause the coach would, you know, always talk to me with this very spiritual language, you know. And then on the sidelines he's dropping. You know, four letter words all over the place and chewing kids out and making 'em feel horrible. And I just, I just, I always struggled as a, as a chaplain to the team.
Like, this feels really [00:06:00] incongruent. Uh, , like, I'm not really sure what I'm doing here. the, my favorite was one night. To do our devotional, we were a visiting team and the home team to try to intimidate us cuz we were heading towards the playoffs, didn't give us a locker room. And so we like met in a field behind the field.
And so we're like back in this field behind the field. and I was doing a devotional about, old Testament prophet and how he put his foot on the neck of these, you know, kings to show that the thing was done and was just talking about finish what you start and, you know, wasn't my best work.
But Eminem's blasting behind me and I'm talking about stepping on people's necks and man, it was like they were so fired up and like they ran out of my devotional. Like I'd just given them everything they need. And I thought this, no, this was not what I was trying to do. Like, I don't know what I just did.
Bob Bickford: Did you guys win that game?
JimBo Stewart: We did, we did win that game. Ended up losing in the playoffs to Leonard Fornet single-handedly beat the team [00:07:00] that year.
Bob Bickford: Wow.
JimBo Stewart: I mean, he was just taking direct snaps and just running 'em over.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. He was a LSU guy, right? Is that right? Did he play for lsu? He probably ran over the Razorbacks too.
JimBo Stewart: yeah. In high school he played, in New Orleans, and man just ran over the team I was chaplain for. But here's here, here's just carrying on your analogy of coaching. My point is I think I, I have the belief, and sometimes it's a little bit naive and idealistic that anybody can grow. in anything if they put in the work and, can put a good plan together on how to grow.
I'm just convinced we can accomplish so much, if we have a good plan. But I have encountered some people that have challenged my belief, and make it really hard for me to think through. And how would I. This person and they're just missing some key ingredients and I don't know if you've ever encountered that.
Bob Bickford: Yes. we would, sometimes say that they are a few fries, short of a happy. Right. [00:08:00] they're missing the, they're missing the prize of the kids' meal. Right. Or some, and, and I don't say that in, in terms of, like capacity for thought. Here's, here's the word. I mean, there's something missing in the ingredients that makes something complete.
And so as we were talking before, we started the podcast, you mentioned there's several key ingredients. That will help someone develop if they're looking for a personal development plan to improve. And so I'm, I'm excited to unpack these with you.
JimBo Stewart: Yes, I would say you can learn how to grow in just about, just about, I'm sure there are exceptions, but in just about any area of your life, if you have these five ingredients, humility, teachability. Self-awareness, integrity, and initiative. and those kind of come across with each other a little bit.
you know, in a Venn diagram, you, if you put it together, and I would say these may sound familiar to you from a series we did on. godly characteristics of leaders, which, Erin Cofield is writing blog articles on right [00:09:00] now on our website that you can go see. And so she's bringing out those older episodes and writing some articles.
And so some of those words like humility and integrity, I think even maybe self-awareness were in that list. so those are things that leaders need. But the reason leaders need them is cuz leaders have to continue to grow and leaders have to be lifelong learners. , and so whatever your starting point is, if you want to grow in any given area of your life, it's gonna be really hard, if not impossible to do so without humility, teachability, self-awareness, integrity, and initiative.
Bob Bickford: Absolutely. Are we gonna take these one by one, perhaps, maybe. And just kind of walk through them?
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Let me, let me highlight just a little bit on each one and, and then get your feedback from that one. Humility. Uh, we've discussed the role of humility on here so many times before I just looked it up, I just typed in humility into the search bar on our website, replant bootcamp.com, and 25 different podcast episodes and three blog posts came up as mentioning humility, so it's one we've talked about.
[00:10:00] A lot in particular in the characteristics of Godly Leader series. It was episode 1 21, but here's, I just wanna throw a couple verses to you to show this is a biblical concept and idea. Ephesians four, two, which is kind of a, you know, part of a central passage for us. Ephesians four. Ephesians four is about, Ephesians four, two is about walking worthy of the calling that God has given to us, and it starts with the posture of humility.
It's humility and then gentleness, and then patience, and then mutual tolerance or forbearance and love. James four 10 says that we're to humble ourselves for the Lord and then he'll lift us. first Peter five, five takes that same idea, says God opposes the proud, but shows favor to the humble. and for all those that, all those that exalt themselves will be humbled and those that humble themselves will be exalted.
And so if you can start with humility, understanding that god's the, the hero here, not you, and that you always have room to grow in every, even things you're really good. You have room to grow. Bottom line, you cannot grow without humility.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I, [00:11:00] absolutely agree, and I, I really like that you started the list with this, right? Because I think this is really the first touchstone, for you and your personal development if you are not humble. Then you may not think that you need to develop anywhere like you are the, the real deal. So I've always loved the definition of humility is when it's stated like this, it's not thinking less of yourself, but it's thinking of yourself less.
So it's, it's not this. You know, being humble doesn't mean like I'm awful and I can't do anything and I'm this and that, you know, but it's just basically saying like, I'm not the end all be all right. I'm not the answer. Right. Probably. When you were in elementary school, remember the basketball player, Alan Iverson, he was called himself?
What do he call himself? The answer, right? Well, as far as I remember, he wasn't the answer. , right? So, A replant and a revitalizer may come into a church and think, man, now that I'm here, everything's gonna be awesome. Well friend, buckle up cuz that probably ain't so, [00:12:00] and one of the deals is, is you've just gotta be humble and realize that you're gonna bring some skills and strengths, but you're also gonna bring a lot of inexperience and weakness.
And so just, man, be humble about that. Right. Be, ready to acknowledge that.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. And humility's really a pre prerequisite for the second ingredient, which is teachability. , you know, it's one thing to be humble. Kind of a step from that is teachability in your humility, not only recognizing that you are not the answer and neith, there was Alan Iverson, but that you've got room to grow.
And so being willing to hear whenever you need to hear things in order to grow teachability is hard. It can be painful. Proverbs 1318 says, poverty and disgrace come to him who ignores instruction. But whoever Heeds Reproof is honored, Proverbs 99 says, give instruction to a wise man, and he will still be.
Teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning. If someone's hum, humil, humble and wise, then they can take the [00:13:00] pain of reproof and rebuke and instruction and correction and become better, and become wiser and become, you know, more. More skilled at what they do, even if they were already good at it prior to or had no skill in it whatsoever.
If you can start with humility and then your next step to build on that was teachability, then you can grow. But without just like humility, without teachability, you cannot grow without teachability.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. One of the best questions that helps you get to the heart of this is if you've done something maybe. Or you've led something, or you've created something or written something. Taking that, step to ask someone for feedback and then saying something, something as simple as this, Hey, if I were going to improve this, how might I do it?
So that acknowledges you just didn't create the, the most awesome and complete thing. But it also recog you also recognizing that people can see something that you can't see in what you've done in terms of [00:14:00] leading or creating or speaking. And so you're asking them to come alongside you and give you some instruction how that teachable spirit to go, here's another way to say it.
Here's another way to stage it. Here's another way to, to strategize. Here's another way to, here's a consideration you may not have thought about. All those things are just more information, and typically, Jimbo, what I've seen is when you invite people in, rather than being in a position where people feel like they have to force their way in, it's so much better.
JimBo Stewart: Mm-hmm. . No, absolutely. When you invite that in and you, when you invite it in, you can be mentally prepared when you ask the question. But what I would say is, and this leads to, integrity, so I'm gonna skip self-awareness for a second and skip over to integrity. don't ask that question if you don't really mean it.
Right? Like don't ask for feedback if you're just really. , somebody to tell you that you did a great job. because if you're saying that kind of fishing for, affirmation so that you can feel better. and they give you actual feedback, you're gonna get offended and you're gonna have a hard time.
And it's not, it's not their fault. You, you [00:15:00] asked them to provide that feedback. And so part of it is in integrity, like you, you have to be honest about how things are. And I would say self-awareness and integrity kind of go a little bit together. So self-awareness would be, uh, you know, Romans 12 says not to think too highly of our.
To have sober judgment, to have a, a real honest assessment of who we are. You know, we've had over a thousand people I think, have taken our replant your revitalize assessment. And that's not, I'm not specifically just talking about that on this podcast, but it's a tool we use. And one of the patterns I've seen, Bob, is there are some guys who will take it and they will score above average when you take it, if you've never taken it.
We'll put a link in the podcast notes, show notes, it's gonna give you a chart, a spider chart that tells you how you scored on each of the 13 characteristics. And then there's this like black dotted line that goes around the chart that takes everybody who's taken it before you and averages their results.
And so you can see how you compare to the average. Taker of this survey, and so what I've seen happen a few [00:16:00] times is guys will take this, they'll score above average on every category. And then one of their lowest ti kind of lowest out of view, if you were to take their lowest four or five characteristics, one of those is gonna be emotional intelligence.
and that pattern typically shows that they don't have a great self-awareness and understanding of their gifting and abilities. and what I'd say is if you. Above average on every single one. chances are that means you're probably lacking some self-awareness.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. This is the, I think one of the super. Key ingredients for, for growth is the possessing self-awareness or being open to pursue it,
JimBo Stewart: Mm-hmm.
Bob Bickford: becoming self-aware. Right? So, you know, we, we all have had those moments in life where we've said something and then we are watching the, the people's face who've just heard what we said and we , we go, oh, I think I said the wrong thing.
Oh man. Right? Some people don't have that Jimbo, they're just, They're just, they're just [00:17:00]going, man. And they just keep going. And most everybody listen in. The audience is going, man, is somebody gonna tell him? Like, is somebody gonna let him know? Like, if you're leading to small, like you're leading a, a small group meeting.
And I remember I was on a staff one time and the pastor was just, man, he was like the smartest guy in their room and he was, Man, it was just like everybody was dying inside and you could just see the non-verbal communication, he was completely, completely missing it. Right? So I think it's really good to, possess self-awareness, but if you don't possess it in great quantities, pursue it.
And it is something that you. Grow in like just by asking somebody, Hey, how did, how did I do when I led that meeting? Is there anything I could have improved? Hey, when I wrote that email, did it come across okay or did what did you see? Or, Hey, when you've heard me, Lead or teach or whatever you're doing.
when you see me do a a care, pastoral care visit, how do I come across right? So we have a good, a good picture, of our own, image [00:18:00] or our own abilities, but we often don't see how we come across to others. One of the things, that I remember from this last week when we were together is I put on my new Carhartt replant.
And, you know, I was wearing that. So you can go to go to replant merch.com cuz we do work for the North American Mission Board and for the replant team. And if you're, if you want winter vest carhart, uh, replant vest is awesome, but I put it on and like half my collar was underneath the collar of the Carhartt vest.
And you just looked at me while we were talking, and you reached over Jimbo, and you reached inside my vest and I didn't know if you were gonna heal me or like punch my heart or take it out with your hand. But you know what you were doing, Jimbo, you were pulling my shirt out from under the co Cause it needed to be pulled out.
I was unaware when I put it on that was the case, right? So I'm that many years old. You know, I, it's just, it happens when you get old. You just don't know those things, right? You just, you can't, you can't see it. But all that, let's, let's pull that back to Selfa. We need the presence and the impact and the input of others to become completely self-aware cuz we can't do it on our own.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, [00:19:00] absolutely it. Look, we've done a few episodes on this as well, episode 39. We talked about the importance of self-awareness. I typed in self-awareness in the search box. This is one of the great things you can do with our, our website. You can type in whatever, amen. There's so many. great podcast episodes that reference self-awareness, but particularly that one, that's about it.
and we go into those, things. But there's three pages of results if you type in self-awareness. so, all right. The next one would be integrity, which I've already referenced a little bit. One, you just gotta be honest. you know, if you want to grow in an area, it's gonna require honesty.
There's a temptation, I think. To avoid the pain of not doing as good as you thought you wanted to do, or be as good as you wanted to be, to just not be honest and, sugarcoat what's going on or create excuses and just know that when we create excuses, you know, reasons and ex explanations are different than excuses, right?
you know, covid was a real thing, right? That, that's an explanation of why almost every single church's, attendance chart [00:20:00] dropped in 2020, right? it's not an excuse, it's a reality. It's an exp It was an explanation. But when we use excuse. and we hide behind excuses. That's actually a lack of integrity and I, I'm a big believer in integrity and I think when we fail to have integrity, I don't know that the Lord's gonna honor our pursuits, to get the result that we're trying to get for him.
And so you have to have integrity. You gotta be honest about how you're doing and what you're doing. Yeah. You know, if you said if you're trying to lose weight and you got somebody holding you accountable and you, you know, you told 'em that you exercised for 30 minutes, but really what you did is, you know, you slowly walked on the treadmill for 30 minutes while you watched the news and your heart rate didn't even increase.
Right. you know, you could say, well, I was on the treadmill for 30 minutes, and that's technically true, but you know that you're not being a hundred percent honest. And so with any development, we have to be honest about what we're doing and where.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, just own it, man. own it. Like that's, that is so [00:21:00] key, you know? And I think the times in my own, you know, vocational ministry when I've, when I've forgotten something, when I've messed up, when I've underperformed, when I have not, I've over promised and I've underdelivered. Or if I just made a mistake, right?
I think when you own it and you, you're, clear with that and you take responsibility. That does demonstrate integrity. And I think people, people believe in you even though you've made a mistake. They'll trust you and they believe you cuz they realize, Hey, hey, every leader makes a mistake.
Every leader doesn't perform at at a hundred percent capacity. And so when they own it, it actually endears the leader even more.
JimBo Stewart: Absolutely. Then lastly is initiative. and this one is just as simple as this. You, it's gonna require work and no one else can do that work for you. If you want to grow in any area in your life, it will require you putting in some work. You're gonna have to take the initiative to do something. So you could be humble and you could be teachable, and you could be self-aware, and you could [00:22:00] be honest about where you're at.
But if you don't take any action, then you're not gonna grow. And so it's why it's one of the necessary ingredients for personal development in, in any area of your life is you. You gotta be willing to take the.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, make stuff happen. Don't wait around for people to, uh, ask you to do things or demand that you do things right. So this, this initiative is super key and I think this is a great separator between, you know, below average leaders and the average leaders and the high performing leaders like. Leaders and pastors and re planters or revitalizes man, get ahold of this one.
And, uh, again, we, you know, we've talked about tactical patients. It doesn't, it doesn't mean that you get credit for just like producing a sheer volume of activity and doing stuff, right. You gotta be doing the right things, but you gotta take initiative rather than, having to be prodded into action.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. And if, look, if you want help on developing, you know, habits and self-control, there's a great book called, your Future Self Will. Thank You, [00:23:00] by Drew Dick. There's, the Power of Habits, there's atomic Habits, there's so many things out there that can help you in that, but, you know, grit by Angela Duckworth.
We'll talk about the perseverance and, you, if you want to grow, if you want leadership opportunities and you've not been getting them, then maybe it's cuz you need to grow and maybe that growth is gonna require humility, teachability, self-awareness, integrity, and initiative.
This EP was recorded in Elk City OK when the guys were in town for the Revive Summit-of which there are two more, we invite you to join us in either Tuscon or Mt. Vernon. Today we get down to the serious business of discussing the value and importance of lay leaders in your church. […]
Hey Bootcampers we hope you are doing well! Bob and Jimbo had some time together in his hometown of JAX and got an opportunity to record a few EPs in his closet office. It’s no mystery that the bootcamp boys have personality, but leading a church requires more than the strength of personality. This EP […]
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] All right. Here we are back at the bootcamp. Bob, I hope you’re ready for the next episode. Jack’s edition got you here in the bold city for a little while, Bob Bickford: the bold and the beautiful city. Yes, it’s great to be here and I’m thankful to come to Jacksonville […]
The boys are back with another EP from their time at Southwestern Baptist Seminary. This time with special guest, Dr. Matt Queen who recently released a new book, Recapturing Evangelism. We celebrated Bob’s honorary Doctorate, and then got down to the serious business of discussing evangelism with one of our favorite all time Evangelists, Dr. […]
The guys are back with another “Dome” edition of the Bootcamp from their time teaching the Dmin seminar at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, SWBTS. Last EP they spoke about the impact of forced terminations on the church and pastor and this week they pivot by suggesting a list of questions for a potential Pastor to […]
Greetings Bootcampers! The boys were living large in Texas while teaching a DMin Cohort at Southwestern Seminary. Today’s topic is an important one; The Impact of Forced Terminations on a Church. Check out the references in the show notes to learn more. And leave your comments on the blog, email or the Bootcamp hotline. Forced termination […]
Hey there Bootcampers! We have the distinct privilege of having not one but two great Marks with us on today’s episode. We asked them questions about the church, leadership and what they see on the horizon in the world of Replanting. Listen in for some great sage wisdom and encouragement from the Marks. And, Big […]
Hey their Bootcampers! We’re back from our Holiday break, we’re jumping right in and getting down to business and discussing the important awareness of how you live your life as a leader. Our good friends at First Coast Churches hosted an annual meeting where Lance Witt presented some great info on how Pastors can move […]
Welcome back Bootcampers. As we’re heading toward the new year we wanted to take a few minutes to talk about the importance of looking back (reflecting upon the past year) and then looking ahead the the new year which is approaching. We’re finding the twin disciplines of reflection and futuring extremely helpful in life, leadership […]
Merry Christmas Bootcampers! We know that this time of year can a huge challenge for Pastors/Planters/Replanters-and we want to encourage you, amidst all the hustle to connect with the truth behind our celebrations at Christmas time. Jesus’ birth reminds us of God’s great love The most simple story is also the most profound-Jesus came into […]
Welcome to this Nashville version of the Bootcamp. The guys got down to recording an EP while doing some Replant work in the big music city. In this installment they guys address how to deal with “stiff-necked” change resisting members of the congregation. How do you deal with people who resist change? How do you […]
Welcome back Bootcampers! In this EP we get down to the important topic of Stewardship-our focus is on how we are stewarding our gifting, leadership opportunities and the foundational questions: 1) Who does the church belong to and 2) What is my role as a Steward. Sit back listen in and we’d love to hear […]
Welcome back Bootcampers! This is a bonus EP on the stages of Replanting is a contribution from one of our Bootcamp team members, Caleb Duncan. He serves as the Associational Missional Strategist for the West Florida Baptist Association.
In our series, we’ve looked at four stages in a replant: Plowing, Planting, Watering, and Growing. Now we turn our attention to the last stage, Harvesting.
Harvesting – The process of identifying, training, and utilizing leaders from your congregation to assist and carry on the work of the ministry. As spiritual growth occurs, leaders are actively engaged in intentionally discipling and raising up new leaders.
Here are some biblical examples: Biblical Rationale: * Apollos: To use the example of Apollos in Acts 18:24-28, Apollos was instructed in the way of the Lord. He already had some background being trained as a leader.. But Priscilla and Aquilla identified him as a leader, and taught him more accurately. Here are some ways he was a natural leader: + Competent in the Scriptures: Spoke and Taught accurately (v. 24-25) + Fervent in Spirit: speaking boldly (v. 25-26) + Greatly Useful to Ministry: (v. 27)
- Jesus’ Inner Circle: Jesus’ intentional discipleship of Peter, James and John. These scriptures show Jesus pulling aside Peter, James, and John to minister to others, to reveal himself to them, and to teach them to pray
- Healing of Peter’s mother in law: Mark 1:29-31
- Healing of Jairus’ daughter: Mark 5:21-43
- Mount of Transfiguration: Mark 9:2
- Garden of Gethsemane: Mark 14:32-33
When you read the book of Acts, the only disciples mentioned by name out of the original twelve are Peter, James, and John. They took a leadership responsibility. Peter preaches, Peter and John heal a lame beggar, Peter and John are brought before the council, Peter and John were sent to the Samaritans, James – pastor of the church in Jerusalem, is martyred for his faith. * Paul’s development of leaders like Titus and Timothy + 2 Timothy 2:1-2, “You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus, 2 and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.” + Titus 1:5 “This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you”
Here are some practical helps: * Keep your eyes always open – to see how people interact with you and with others. Who are the people that your church members talk about on a regular basis? Who do people go to for advice and biblical questions? * Spend time personally with those individuals. * Show them the way you do ministry * Give them opportunities to model your example * Delegate responsibility to them with oversight
Thanks to Caleb for the great content and for joining us on the Bootcamp. We've love to hear from you, drop us a comment, email or voicemail on the Bootcamp hotline and don't forget to leave us a review on your favorite listening platform.
Get the leadership you need for your website and church branding by contacting our great sponsor, One Eighty Digital. They do great work and we're glad to recommend them to you!
As promised-here's the pic of Bob in the LSU Pajama Top
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp. Bob, I hope you're ready for the next episode. We, uh, are recording a few weeks in advance to give our blog writers an opportunity to be able to have time to, to write the blogs, but, this is our first opportunity since the battle of the Boot, LSU versus Arkansas, to, to let the bootcamp world know on the podcast.
Bob did make good on the annual wager that we. I tried to get Bob to wear the pajama top in the airport, but I gave it to him in the restaurant where we had lunch at the airport and he would not wear it there, but he did wear it at the house. And we have a good picture on social media and we'll make sure it's in the show notes as well for you.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I'm glad we were able to document that and, I think the, the restaurant I was already. About to eat my food when you blitz in from being late, for some reason. and so I just wanted to let the record show we, we were sitting down and already eating and, at least I was about to eat. And then you handed me the, the t the pajama top in a bag.
[00:01:00] So, and then we had to scoot to get to our next flight. So that's, you know, our travels Jimbo, we've been all over the. Recently and, we're about to wrap up our final travels. I think in, interestingly enough, you and I have had several trips in, partnership. We've been doing some things together, which has been fun and, so it's always good to connect and sometimes you never know who you're gonna meet in the airport.
And I met Jimbo with Pajama Top. So there you
go.
JimBo Stewart: There we. Hey, speaking of our blog writers and making things, uh, as easy as we can for them, we have been so blessed and excited to have, a regular blog going on with the podcast, and we just finished our four part series written by Bobby B Bob Bickford on the Four Stages of Replanting and one of our illustrious blog writers, Caleb Duncan, uh, is.
Associational, missional strategist, director of Missions, whatever title that, that you, just depends on who you're asking, what his title is, in the Panhandle of Florida. He had a good suggestion for a follow up, Bob, and so Caleb, welcome to the podcast
Caleb Duncan: Thank you [00:02:00] for having me. I'm honored to be here and yeah, in the very rural area of Florida, I go by lots of different names, . So, associational admission strategist is not one that a lot of people, uh, know around here. Maybe a couple, but. Last time I got up to preach at one of our small churches, I was introduced as the, director missionary of associational missions.
So that's, that was a brand new one. I liked it.
Right.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. I think I've heard area missionary too. I've heard
Caleb Duncan: yeah. Area missionary. Yeah, there's a lot of different names. I think
Bob Bickford: Does somebody ever, has somebody ever just put it all together and just called you the dome or the doma? Anybody's ever said that when they introduce
Caleb Duncan: not that yet, but I'm sure it's coming. A lot of them have come out of the blue,
JimBo Stewart: So older Doms will, will go by dome and then sometimes they'll make the joke that Dom stands for dumb old man. I've heard that from
Caleb Duncan: I have heard that as well. so that, that is one that I have heard. I think. I think mostly though, it's hard for people to figure out with me because I'm like, [00:03:00] 28 years old now. And whenever people look at me, they're like, you're not the kind of dom that I guess that I know from back home. Like, you don't do the same thing that they do, do you?
And I'm like, well, you know, what did they do? So,
Bob Bickford: Yeah,
Caleb Duncan: so there's, there's a, you know, when people look at me, they're like, I don't, you're not a dom, because I think there's that. That idea that Doms are kind of, you know, retired pastors who are kind of, you know, offering advice and counsel to, you know, churches in a variety of situations.
And I'm just not that guide. So , it's been, it's been a little bit weird, but it's been a joy, absolutely a joy.
Bob Bickford: Man, we love our ams or doms, which whatever term they're going by. Cuz you guys play such an important role in helping churches be strategic about their ministry and their context. And so, man, it's awesome and, and you might be one of the youngest doms that we have across North America. so man, I'm just glad you're doing what you.
Caleb Duncan: Well, in the interview process, it was funny, you know, they wanted to [00:04:00]know, you know, what would I be doing, to, to help serve the churches. And they wanted to hear kind of my vision for things. And I told them, I'm not the one that can sit down with you and talk about. You know, finances or go through conflict resolution, those are things that I have to learn.
And I said, but you know, I can be a friend, I can be a prayer partner and I can encourage you in the great commission. You know, those are the three things that I think are important for me to, to try to do. So, as a young guy in, in kind of what we're talking about in the podcast today, I feel like I'm much on the, the receiving end of, um, leadership development from our pastors, and I really enjoy that.
So,
Bob Bickford: Awesome.
JimBo Stewart: so speaking of why we have you on the podcast today, you've brought a great addition to Bob's four stages of replanting that we just finished harvesting. talk to us a little bit about what you're thinking when you talk about this fifth stage of harvesting.
Caleb Duncan: Yeah. So I would say after we're focused on, the growing stage where we're, we're seeing, seeing a lot of spiritual growth, you know, in the congregation, in, in different avenues, [00:05:00] what we really need to be doing after that is trying to identify leaders out of that congregation and seek to train them, and utilize them as soon as we can, and, The definition, I think that, kind of fits what harvesting might be is, is the process of identifying, training and utilizing leaders from your congregation to assist and carry on the work of the ministry.
So as spiritual growth occurs, you know, leaders are, they're actively engaged in trying to intentionally disciple and raise up new leaders from out of the congregation.
Bob Bickford: It's such a great, I, thought there in terms of, you know, harvesting typically in. Experience has always just been the harvest of souls, right? The harvest of people coming to, to know Christ, which is, which is part of the harvest. Right? But you, you particularly thought about like harvesting leaders from the congregation to come up and, and to continue the missional work.
So as you think through that, biblically, you, you have suggested a couple of ideas where you, you think through leaders, You know, from a [00:06:00] biblical perspective that came up through the church and now are, involved and engaged in the ministry. Can you walk us through a couple of those, those scenarios where you see leaders?
Cuz that's the number one thing I hear pastors talking about is, um, not number one necessary, but it's in the top five man. We just gotta have more leaders. Like I just gotta have more leaders. So walk us through some of your thoughts there in terms of harvesting leaders for the work of mission.
Caleb Duncan: Yeah, so I think that, in the example that you use Bob with Paul and Pauls in First Corinthians three that are mentioned by, you know, their planting and their. Apollos is watering and we talked about that in stage three and a little bit in stage four, two. and then, you know, you pulled out Acts chapter 18 verses 24 through 28, where we see Apollos doing the work of ministry.
And I think that in that story is a great example of what, identifying and training a leader looks like because, and we think about Apollo. Or really think of him as a, as a natural leader. You know, the scriptures say that he was, he was competent in the scripture. So he spoke and he taught with accuracy.
it [00:07:00] also says there in verse 25 and 26 that he was, you know, fervent in spirit. So Apollos was, you know, speaking boldly about the things of God. And then verse 27 talks about how he was just greatly useful to the ministry. And so, what happens with Apollo though is that, he knows the scriptures, but he doesn't know them to their full completion, right?
He, he knows sections of them. He knows the baptism of John. And so he's talking about sin and repentance and trying to encourage people to turn from their sin, but he's missing something. then we see this picture of Priscilla and Equi. Who actually. they see and they recognize what a Apollo is doing, and they identify him as a leader and then they pull him aside and they're teaching him more accurately the, the way of the Lord, the things of God.
And then they, they, they send a Apollo back out to continue the work of ministry. So I think that if we were using kind of the example that you've used of Paul and Apollos, I think Apollos would be a great example of a leader who has developed, but I think even further, we think [00:08:00] about the life of Jesus, and Jesus pulled aside 12 disciples to follow him.
He was gonna make them fishers of men. He spent three years, every moment with these disciples and we kind of see this picture of Jesus' ministry, but, What Jesus does is he pulls out three leaders out of those 12 disciples. He brings out Peter and James and John, and we see these different pictures, especially in the Book of Mark, but really in all over the gospels where Jesus pulls them aside so that they can watch him do the work of ministry.
So there's the healing of Peter's mother-in-law and the healing of J's daughter, where, the Bible says that Jesus took Peter, James and John with him so that they could see the work of ministry unfold. And then, in the amount of transfiguration, they're, able to see some of the things that does that the rest of the disciples are not able to see.
So Jesus pulls them aside to the mount on the amount of transfiguration. And then lastly, there's this picture of the garden of Yosemite. All the disciples are with Jesus in the garden, [00:09:00] but when Jesus goes to pray, he pulls those three disciples with him and they can watch. So what I'm thinking of is, Yes, Jesus discipled.
I pour into all the disciples, but he especially did so with Peter, James, and John. just to kind of bring that to a conclusion, I think that it's clear, you know the reason why and when you open the book of Acts, the only three. Of the original 12 disciples that are mentioned by name and that are doing the work of ministry and our leaders in the early church are Peter, James and John.
And so Jesus sought to do that. you know, how much more so to we, you know, really seek to identify the leaders to carry on the work of ministry after we're gone.
JimBo Stewart: Such a good word, man. I, I love how well you have laid that out biblically. one of the greatest joys I have, I think in ministries when I have the opportunity to develop leaders and, I struggled at first because, I would develop leaders in my little church and then they would get, pulled from a larger church because, I couldn't pay 'em.
And, at, at, at first, that really bothered me. But then I realized, man, what a, what a gift that I get [00:10:00] to be a part of their story. And I get to be a part of seeing that happen. And I think one of the. Mistakes. I see smaller churches like Replants make sometimes is we think, oh, we gotta wait till we're big enough to develop leaders.
We, you know, to focus on leadership development. And, man, this, ties to so much of what we talk about here on the podcast about the importance of. Shared leadership in that, the CEO model of pastor is not biblical and it doesn't work. and so as a pastor man, one of the things you have to be working on is, is developing leaders.
I mean, it's Ephesians for, you know, 11 equipping the Saints to do the work of ministry in, And so
I'm just grateful for this, addition to the four stages of replanting for what it brings to us. What are some practical ways that we could identify, as we think about this.
Is it guys listening to this? If he wants to start identifying developing leaders, knowing that a pastor has a responsibility to make disciples, he has a pa, a responsibility to shepherd. He has a responsibility to, engage the community and he has the responsibility to develop leaders. how do you [00:11:00]identify leaders?
Caleb Duncan: I think that one of the, the first ways that we can do that is that while we're, while we're doing and starting the work of ministry in our churches, we're always keeping our eyes open, but we want to see and recognize. who are the people who, it seems like the church members gravitate around who go, they go to them for questions.
they look to them for, for answers on different issues going on in the church. there's a reason why church members gravitate towards that. And I will say too, a leader is not always an extrovert. It's not always a person who just speaks the.
JimBo Stewart: Good.
Caleb Duncan: There's a guy who's involved in my connect group at church right now, and he's, he's very, very quiet, but I really respect him and brought him onto our church development team.
And he's also another younger guy, but he's an engineer here in our community and he's on our church development team at the association. And, We call, we all call him Young Richie cuz his dad's name is Richard as well. But he, um, we'll go and sit in on a meeting with the church [00:12:00] and talk about, different issues that we're seeing and some options that they can do to replant.
And he's the quietest one in the room, but when it's his turn to speak he always says something profound and super observe it that nobody else thought of. And I've noticed that a lot of people when they start think. You know, financial questions, they'll start going to him. I love that. You know, so we keep our eyes open to see, you know, new leaders and see which ones kind of emerge out of that, congregation that we can pull aside and begin to intentionally spend time with.
And that's the second thing I think, you know, we spend time personally with those individual. We, um, take every moment that we can to bring them, alongside of us and to see the way that we do ministry. I think another thing is that we give them opportunities to, to model the example that we're setting.
So if I'm, doing some kind of ministry work, especially if you're a replant, Pastor or rev or revitalization pastor, and you're working inside of a church and you're going out into the community to knock on doors and pray for people and get to know your community. You take [00:13:00] those leaders along with you and you let them see the way that you interact with other people.
and I think lastly, you know, just, and Bob, you, you, if you wanted to, add on to this, I, I think that, you know, you just, you delegate responsibility to. With oversight and you just allow them to, carry on some work and then you watch and give correction if needed. I think those are just some practical ways to identify and develop people.
Bob Bickford: Man, I love that list. I especially love how you describe young Richie. And here's an observation, Jimbo in the South. You can get a nickname that has nothing to do with you actually. Right. Like Young Richie's, probably not young, but they call him Young Richie cuz he is Richie Junior
JimBo Stewart: Well and mean. He was, he was probably, he, like he was young when they met him 25
years ago
and
Caleb Duncan: Well, well, he's young right now, but, but I've, I've, I've said young Richie to so many people that I feel like, uh, that name's gonna carry on. So,
Bob Bickford: yep. What I love about the way you describe him is, you have seen him in several different situations exhibit the character [00:14:00] and wisdom that qualify him as a competent leader. And I think one of the things that's so important, For re planters and, and leaders ams As anyone is watching somebody, and I think you said this, you get, you have to watch them over time, right.
To understand who they are and what they're about. and in some replants I've seen where, where I've walked in, everybody goes to a response to a particular individual who's a leader, but they might not be a leader that has a lot of charact. , but they're a controlling leader or they're an influential leader, and so that's one of the things I, I think is so important Is just looking at the lay of the land, who's volunteering, who's leading and choosing the leaders that demonstrate Christlike character and the fruit of the spirit who are there. And there are some there, but they, like you said, they may not be an extrovert. Most of us, I think Jimbo, most of our team is an extrovert and surprisingly, mark Clifton, who's the leader of the replant team, he is not an extrover.
He's an introvert and people don't understand that, but when he gets on the stage, man, the lights go on. And he's like this [00:15:00] incredible
dynamic speaker, but off the stage, man, he is like, give him a chair in a corner or a private room where he just has to go and recharge. So I love the fact that, you've just highlighted the fact that great leaders don't have to be extrover.
and, and we need all kinds of personalities and types that to help lead the church. One thing I would say is, as you're thinking about the harvest and you're thinking about leaders, And this may be a little counterintuitive, but I would wait to give leadership responsibility to someone until I have disagreed with them about something.
Because sometimes what'll happen is, is I can go for months, maybe even years. Being on the same page with a really dynamic leader who could be an extrovert or could be an introvert. But if we have a disagreement and we can't handle that disagreement and resolve and move forward, then what's happened is, is that I've uncovered something that may be months and years later is gonna be more detrimental.
So, you know, I, I think Jesus was always testing his disciples and was always giving them responsibility in. [00:16:00] Obligations and then watching to see how they would do, you know, James and John wanted to call, call fire down on people. When people didn't respond the way they, Peter was always putting his foot in his mouth.
Judith was like ciphering. Judas was ciphering off the cash over in the corner. You know, Thomas, you know, who just, I mean, think about the, think about the team that he put together, and most of us probably wouldn't ever looked at 'em or hired those guys, right? But Jesus brings 'em together and then the scriptures give us the syndication.
And here's one thing I would say. Leaders aren't perfect, right? and so, man, we keep that in mind as you're, as you're developing a leadership team out of the harvest of, of what God brings to you. Just remember that, that leaders are not perfect and they're gonna make mistakes. And so Grant Grace and then move towards them with, with, gentle biblical instruction in e.
Caleb Duncan: I think that's a very good insight as definitely going in the blog, by the way. So
Bob Bickford: Yeah. I hope so.
Caleb Duncan: and, and I, I would say too, you know, I, I've been in, I've been in relationships before where, Some men of [00:17:00] God have really, I mean, really poured their life and soul into me, and I would say on the discipleship end of things, teaching me how to follow Christ well. What's going on right now is, As a young AMS leader, I'm surrounded by, I mean, we have probably the smallest Baptist Association in the state of Florida, right?
We have 15 churches. There might be one or two smaller than that, but we have, we have it small, so I've got 15 pastors and they're some of the best pastors in the panhandle, and they pour their life and soul to me and are trying to develop me as a leader. And I recognize that and see that, and. You know, I'm like, I'm trying to be the one to, you know, encourage them and pray for them and be with them.
But really, leadership works both ways because even as you seek to develop leaders, you learn a lot about yourself in the process. And I recognize my pastor right now at, at first chip leader, his name is Mike, or, and he is just pouring into me. he, it's a different type of disciple. It is not just teaching me how to follow Christ, but he's trying to develop me as a leader.
And so, you know, I [00:18:00] recognize some of those things and, see the influence of it in my own life. And I get convicted about ways that I'm leading and need to learn how to lead better. So, I feel very much on the receiving end of that, that leadership development.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. I think one of the important things to keep in mind in leadership development is, We're not doing this ultimately in order to use people to accomplish our to-do list. if you go into leadership development with the mindset of, oh, this is gonna help me get so much more done, then you're probably gonna miss the gold of what leadership development is really about.
It's about developing leaders, which sounds obvious because that's what we just said, but we easily fall into the trap of what I call delegate and. Where once they show any amount of competency, we just go, okay, here, do these 10 things. And then we just, that's, we just assign them to 10 things and walk away.
And we think that that's leadership development. That's not leadership development. That's, I mean, if, if you need somebody to help you do [00:19:00] things, then call it what it is and you. Getting things done, and there's nothing wrong with that. and that can be incorporated into leadership development. But if we get confused and we just assume that that's what leadership development is, is the, or even the purpose of leadership development is just to get more things done, then we'll get really frustrated when things aren't done right.
We'll get really frustrated when they require more attention to Leadership Development will cost you time. It will cost you resources. this is. Free volunteer labor. This is, this is a, an opportunity to invest into somebody, and I think you just have to keep that in mind. Or else you might get impatient and real.
You just gotta realize that different people are in different stages. I would call you back to an episode we did with Bob Bumgarner a while back called Situational Leadership.
Caleb Duncan: Mm-hmm.
JimBo Stewart: Which Situational leadership. Situational leadership talks about developing leaders and, and understanding kind of what stage of development they're in and how each stage requires a little bit different, levels of attention [00:20:00] or encouragement or resourcing.
and knowing that your goal is not to produce, task being done, your goal is to develop a leader. And just keeping that in mind, I think it's really, I.
Caleb Duncan: That's great.
Bob Bickford: I think one thing too, Jimbo to keep in mind is you're developing leaders. It's, we there, there's a lot of temptation to find the leadership class or development process that's more of a static. Like it's okay, do these five lessons and do these things. Now there's, there's a lot of value in that because, There are a lot of us that would benefit from, okay, what are, how are we going to develop leaders?
What are the things we need to do? And so there's competencies and qualifications and characteristics and all those things. So we need outside individuals. But I think the, the other thing that we're gonna have to, to look at is every leader that's developed develops at a different pace. And they also have different, areas of their life that need to.
Specifically addressed in terms of just their own personal development. Like you can train 'em in a skill, but there may be some character issues or there may be some family of origin issues, there may be some [00:21:00] perspective and personality issues, right? So if you've got a, enthusiastic. Leader who's like every meeting, this is gonna be the best and the greatest and the most awesomeness thing.
Right? Well then people get tired from that. Like, cuz everything is awesome. Nothing is awesome. And then if you've got the EOR melancholy type personality, who's a leader, you know, they, they may be motivated by negative. Like, look how bad this thing is. We've gotta work hard to make it better. Right? And so that's what they, so you've gotta help leaders think about those kinds of things as well as the.
Biblical competencies and the organizational competencies and those sorts of things. And so I think as much as it can be standardized, it's also has to be customized and thinking of the gospel metaphor, you know, when Jesus had gospel conversations with different individuals, he started where they were. and had an, understanding of their background. So you think of the woman of the well, right. Where did, where did you start with her? I think of Nicodemus. Where did he start with Nicodemus? you know, all sorts of things in, in Christ's life show us that Jesus met [00:22:00] people where they were not so that they could stay where they are, but so that they could be transformed by who he was.
And I think that's really important part of leadership development and, helps us think through this harvest idea as well.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, character matters a lot more than competency
and we can't, we can't miss that. don't be distracted by the guy. I love that you talked about the extroverted versus introvert. Don't be distracted by the guy who. Is a really good public speaker, but it's just kind of a jerk. don't, don't waste your time on that guy.
I mean, I, look man, I, I've gotten to the point in my life where like if I have that guy and he wants me to develop him, I'm gonna do everything I can to humble him, because that's what he needs.
That's, I mean, it's. and, I know I know a lot about it because, I was that guy and, some people had to humble me.
Caleb Duncan: you know, when I, think about, this topic and. I know that, if you're involved in a replant or a revitalization, it's sometimes it's hard to look around and try to identify leaders, especially in a, you know, if there's a congregation that has seven or eight people left, But I think that, you know, [00:23:00] before a church goes outside of their congregation to hire someone and bring somebody in to be an extra pastor or an extra leader, I still think that it's a priority that we look inside first and try to develop those leaders from within.
because you've built trust with the congregation. I think that, you know, when you think about, leaders inside of the congregation, sometimes that could be hard to identify. So I would. still try to identify a few leaders, at least if they are not going to be, you know, a next pastor or ministry leader, they can, they can at least be developed into some other kind of leadership role.
but we have to be doing that because the point is, you know, what happens if you fall ill or you die, or you move on to another assignment that God's called you. What happens if, you know, uh, your associational leader is gone and what happens to the church? Who's involved in a replant if you've not developed any leaders to follow up in your place?
And I think that that's a. Something that we just need to [00:24:00] consider. Like we, we have to be able to put someone in our places for when we leave. because the goal really is, I mean, we just as disciples are making disciples, like leaders should be developing leaders. and if we don't do that, we're missing out on the blessing of.
I think not just the blessing of obeying the Lord, but the blessing of, seeing the joy of a multiplying congregation, and seeing one that gets on fire for the Lord and is following the leadership of those who have been developed in, in a godly way.
JimBo Stewart: man, this is great, Bob. do you give your stamp of approval to officially add this as a next stage of replanting?
Bob Bickford: Absolutely. Stamp of approval Grant.
Caleb Duncan: That's awesome.
JimBo Stewart: Absolutely. Hey Caleb, thanks for being on with us today. Thanks for, adding a fifth. Of replanting and thanks for being an awesome volunteer blog writer,
Caleb Duncan: I'm still waiting on my hat by the way,
Bob Bickford: Oh, dude, we gotta get it. We'll get you one.
Caleb Duncan: Nah, I enjoy it. Thank you guys so much.
Happy Thanksgiving Week Bootcampers! We're back with another EP on the Stages of Replanting, today's EP focuses on the work God does of growing the church. We'd love to hear from you, drop us a comment, email or voice mail. Listen in and share your thoughts and don't forget to leave us a review on your favorite listening platform.
In our series, we’ve looked at three stages in a replant: Plowing, Planting and Watering. Now we turn our attention to the last stage, Growing.
Growing: The fully developed seed of the gospel springs up and is evident in the life of those inside the church. It is marked by changed thinking and living, and is evidence of God’s work in the lives of the people – spiritual growth. What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. (1 Cor. 3:5-7)
If you are faithfully fulfilling your assignment in plowing, planting and watering, you, brother pastor, are doing what God requires. He will grow His church. It may be numerically, doctrinally, spiritually, relationally.
You may not be nominated for the church magazine’s top-growing church list; that’s OK. Don’t seek a reward from men; seek the reward that comes from faithfully fulfilling the assignment God has given you.
It may be time to update your website, if so, check out our sponsor at one eighty digital, they can get you up and running with a site, branding and a whole lot more, let them know you are a Bootcamper!
JImBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Are. Bob, I hope you're ready for the next episode. This episode comes out Thanksgiving week and we're continuing. We're finishing the four part series on stages in a replant. This one will be growing, which is appropriate because this week my waistline is gonna be growing, I dive into.
Thanksgiving food and the holiday feasting begins. It kind of starts now, and for me doesn't end until January now. When I lived in New Orleans, it would start now and it doesn't end until Mardi Crawl is over, and so I have a little bit of a shortened feasting season, but the feasting season begins.
Bob Bickford: Well, I love Thanksgiving and I love me some mashed potatoes and gravy. And, I do like pumpkin pie, Jimbo, but it has to be slathered in cool whip. Like you can't really, you shouldn't even be able to see even the slice of pumpkin pie. That's how I eat my pumpkin pie. But [00:01:00]man, Thanksgiving's a, a blast.
It's a great time.
JImBo Stewart: Yeah, so for the last several years we have developed a tradition because we don't have a lot of family in Florida, and so we've developed a tradition of some church members from redemption. That we go eat with them on Thanksgiving, and my price of admission is homemade bread. I, I was told I'm not allowed to come without making some homemade bread, and so while the boot campers are listening to this, I'm probably making bread at that moment.
Bob Bickford: Well, I got some of that bread last year and uh, you sent it to me, I think. Did you ship it to me or did we, I think we saw
each other and there was a handoff.
JImBo Stewart: Yeah. We saw each other, uh, somewhere and we, we met up and I brought you some bread,
Bob Bickford: no. Well, I was, I was pretty pumped about that, and, uh, I enjoyed the bread. So, if you can get some of jimbo's bread, just let me tell you, it's worth, it's worth the drive and it's worth the price.
So make it happen.
JImBo Stewart: There we go. All right, let's jump back into our series. We have, been going on it for three weeks. we, the first week we talked [00:02:00] about plowing the work of God and preparing the ground through the preaching of the gospel with the power and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Then we talked about planting.
The work of the pastor and the leaders to sow the gospel deeply into the softened ground of the church body. And then last week we talked about the continual teaching and application of truth from God's word that gives much needed refreshment so the seed can grow. And we talked about how a lot of this is kind of overlapping and some of the same things.
And as preaching the gospel in a dead church, if it is spiritually dead or, Then you're plowing some hard soil for a while, and it may feel like the word has returned void. But keep plowing and keep planting those seeds at the gospel and keep watering that gospel with the gospel. So today we're gonna talk about growing.
So Bob, what are we referring to when we talk about this fourth stage of growing?
Bob Bickford: Yeah, so this. One of the fun
JImBo Stewart: Yeah. Yes, finally.
Bob Bickford: and, so the way [00:03:00] we define growing is this. The fully developed seed of the gospel springs up and it's evident in the life of those inside the church. It's marked by change to thinking and living, and is evidence of God's work and the lives of people, mainly spiritual growth.
So that's what growing is all about. And we go back to our passage, Jimbo in First Corinthians three, and we're gonna read through. Verse seven here. But let me go ahead and start back in verse five. Paul says, what then is a Apollo? What is Paul servants through whom you believed as the Lord assigned to each?
I planted Apollo watered, but God gave the growth. And here's the key. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything but only God who gives the. Right. So the key here is, man, you, we work, we work hard, we labor hard. But if there's gonna be growth in the church, Jimbo, it's really not a a, a factor of me.
I don't cause anything to grow in and of myself. I merely am obedient [00:04:00] to be a servant and work in the field and do those tasks that God is assigned to me. And if it's gonna grow, God is the one who makes it.
JImBo Stewart: Yeah, it's uh, you know, We get into this and we talk about what does growth mean and what does success look like? And we've talked about this a lot on the podcast of defining church health, defining church growth in that we can't just look at it, based on the, the numbers. But, you talk to any group of people and you're gonna find that many different versions of what church health or church growth or success is defined as.
So I, man, I just appreciate if that's something you struggle with. Like if the, the weight of success or perceived success is, is bearing down you to the point of depression. the book, liberating Ministry from the Success Syndrome by Kent Hughes was really instrumental for me, in kind of changing my mindset and, and the framework of how I thought about that.
And, I said recently, a few weeks ago when we were at a mi Replant [00:05:00] conference at Southern Seminary, I just a way to, to talk about, church health kind of came to my mind. In a way, in, in a clearer way than I think it had before. I'm just understanding the difference between the identity that God has given the church and the infrastructure that we provide and our identity as a church is the bride of Christ, and as its members, we are the adopted children of God.
Enlisted as ambassadors in the embassy of our king. Our infrastructure is the organizational systems and structures of that embassy to support the mission that God has given us. And so churches don't have to die and they don't have to just be measured by the metrics of the infrastructure. but if we, if all we focus on and all we measure is the infrastructure and that takes place of identity as the preeminent thing, that's really idol.
And we have to understand that the identity is the thing that really matters. Every church is an organization, but biblical churches are much more than just an organization. And so [00:06:00] what do we do to help a church grow?
Bob Bickford: Yeah, well, we don't create the growth, but we create the conditions by which things can grow through, through the actions of being obedient ministry, right? So the things that we've talked before about all the plowing and the planting and the watering, right? Those are precursors to growth. You're not gonna have, you have growth without plowing or planting or watering.
It's just not gonna happen, right? So those are the things that we do, and those are the things that God's called us to. And, and so I think the. The challenge for SBOs is it seems like when we talk to d e students and researchers and consultants, everybody's looking to distill the unique factors that cause the church to grow.
Right? And you can, you can have some churches that have all the same factors as ones that have grown and they don't. And you can have some churches that seem to not have anything that is even remotely thought that needs to be present. And they seem to be growing, right? And so you just kind of look at this and go, man, this, [00:07:00] it's a head scratch here, here.
But, but I think what Paul is really saying here is it's only God who gives the growth. It's only, it's God that does it. And so, you know, we can, we, we, you and I have friends that served in, tumultuous churches. They had short term pastors, right? And so they leave there either by choice or by force, and they'll roll into another place.
And the previous place was a disaster, but the next place they roll into, it's amazing.
Like something amazing. And you get the seminary. You see this, a seminary graduate that has like all the right connections. And all of the skills and abilities he cleaned out like on a senior award banquet day, like he just cleaned out, right?
He got like all the commentaries, got the trip to Israel, got the preaching award, you know, all those sorts of things. He's got the, the church that's this like, Clamoring for him to come and be their pastor and he shows up and maybe plants a church and you just see, man, something just doesn't go right. It just doesn't take [00:08:00] off.
So you see those kinds of things that happen all the time, and then you just kinda scratch your head and go, well man, who was successful and who failed, right? And I really don't know that you can say, You as an individual, as an outside observer that lacks divine knowledge, you can't say that person succeeded or failed.
JImBo Stewart: Yeah, I mean, I think success has to be about faithfulness.
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm.
JImBo Stewart: We have to understand that, we cannot contrive growth in a church. We can contrive growth in a crowd, but even that does not necessarily equal growth in a church and. We have to, I mean, there's, there has to be a dependence all the whole, the, the, the plowing, the, planting, the watering, all of that is with like the, like a farmer.
Great dependence on the Holy Spirit. Just like the farmer can't, he can, he can plow the hard soil and he can plant good seeds and he can water all of that, but still up to the [00:09:00] Lord, whether he gets a harvest.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a myth, one myth and one truth that we've gotta really pay attention to. The myth is that, that we, the pastor, the planter, or replant or revitalizer are the ones who make a, a church grow, right? We don't make the church grow. So that's kind of the myth, right? And, and you hear guys talk about myth.
We just find the right guy, right to find the right guy. And God, you know, we need a, a guy that's, you know, ACEs or a, a varsity player or a five star guy or whatever. I just don't know. I mean, how do you even determine that , right? It's like how do you determine that? Right? So, you know, you get the right guy in there and the church is gonna grow.
And well, the truth, here's the truth. The truth is God is the one who makes the church grow. And so I've seen and met some guys probably who would not. Somebody's list of all stars to, you know, put in that pastoral role who've done a phenomenal job and have, have grown a church. The God, the Lord has grown the church through them, through their leadership.
and it's just amazing, right? and, uh, so we just have to remember that, it's God [00:10:00] who makes the church grow. And really, if we get back to the heart of this passage, Jimbo, first Corinthians three, what was the problem? Well, the problem was that the Corinthian church, the members were making much of men. Just making it like, okay, well I'm, I'm of Paul, or I'm of Apollo, right? And so what they were doing is saying, well, I'm, I'm a this, I'm his guy. I'm, I'm of this guy's. I'm a fan of him. I like the way he does ministry. I like the, I like the leadership vision of this guy. And I don't know if you've ever had this happen, Jimbo, but.
Somebody comes up to you and, uh, shares, with you back in the day. And this'll really date me. And I've heard this didn't happen to me, but it's happened to some pastors I know. Um, back in the day, they would have a church member that would come up with him and share a cassette tape of the, their favorite pastor, like they were on the cassette tape ministry plan and say, look, here, I, I just love this sermon and I, I would love for you to listen to it.
Well, what are they saying? Well, they could be saying a number of different things, but I think some of my friends who received those cassette tapes, felt like they were saying, if you would [00:11:00]just be like this guy, right? Like this guy knows how to do. And I, man, again, I'm all for listening to other preachers and pastors to get inspiration and insight and those sorts of things.
But If I'm trying to be like somebody I'm not in order to get a response that God's not going to give, that's a problem. Right? and so we've just gotta understand that the, the heart of this passage, the Corinthians, were the, the ones who been, they were, they were all about personalities and pastors.
And Paul is writing here saying, look, you can be all about that. But what you gotta understand is they each have their role and God is the one who grows the church.
JImBo Stewart: I'll be honest, early in ministry I fell into this trap and I, there was a couple pastors that I loved to listen to, and I remember thinking, oh man, my pastor doesn't measure up. Like he's, he doesn't preach like these guys. and I, I almost. Almost went to him and pointed him to these pastors to listen to.
And I, I think the Holy Spirit [00:12:00] like smacked me in the head and, and was just like, what are you doing? Like God's not called them to be those guys. God's called those guys to be those guys. And you know what, God hasn't called you to be those guys. Like, I don't need to sound like that guy when I preach.
Like, you gotta find your, your own voice and then you gotta. God knows what he's doing and that he can man, he can use anybody. I mean, there's, look, I could tell you so many examples of guys who are not necessarily amazing preachers and they know it, but man, God's doing amazing things in their church.
Why? Cuz the power's not in the preacher. The power's in the word of God.
Bob Bickford: absolutely. And if we shifted gears here even a little bit, and this has probably happened, you know, it's happened to me, you know, you've led the church in an outreach. some kind of campaign to help them become mobilized and reach the community to invite people for an event or to share their, their faith or something.
And you've worked, worked, worked, and worked, and then all of a sudden, it's the day event and it rains it out. [00:13:00] Right? Or, or nobody shows.
JImBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: Right. And so I've, I've had a, I had a couple of those. I remember we, we were doing some movie nights and we worked really hard and, you know, first ones coming and it rained it out.
And then one summer we planned a block party and it was absolutely the hottest day ever in the month of June. And . It was like, like, okay, well, you know, here we go. and sometimes we do those things and we expect. Those campaigns or those events to grow church. And sometimes they work to bring a crowd.
And I think you differentiated between, you know, drawing a crowd and actually growing a church are two different things. but man, you just gotta understand that sometimes all of the things that we do, all of the things that we try, to get an opportunity to get people there to hear the gospel, man, they, they're not the focus necessarily of, of what success is all about.
Right? So, so you had a big event, so you had, this big, you know, [00:14:00] whatever. How many of those folks heard the gospel respond to the gospel, and now are, are, are part of your church in being discipled typically not a. Right. So those are fishing events. There's nothing wrong with doing those. Right. But, I think if you, you can't attach the success or the, what you define as the success of your church based upon the response to those sorts of
things.
JImBo Stewart: Yeah. So a couple things. One is, I have definitely experienced that. I've, I've said on here before that when you look at our church to one side of our church is kind of a. Little more higher crime, low income minority community to the other side is more of a middle class Anglo community. And when we would plan, visitation time to go into the neighborhoods, on one side of the community, I would usually get a handful of people.
That would sign up to go with me when it was time to go to the other side, other neighborhoods, I would, I often was by myself, , like, no, no, no one would sign up to go with me. . And, and so I know exactly what that feels like. And then also remember, uh, I mean, early on we would [00:15:00] have mission teams. I would, I would connect with churches and get mission teams to come serve and.
My hope was always that I would, church members would also come and a lot of times, man, I, I think. I don't know if I just didn't communicate it right, but our church members kind of took it as, oh, the mission team's here, so we don't have to do it. Like that's why
that's why they're here. And I was often disappointed with the level of involvement that we got from our church members.
And then I remember one time we had a mission team from a very, very large church, I mean a very large church with a very large budget. I was connected through, somebody that was on staff there, and so they wanted to come serve and so they helped us run a vbs. And I think we had like 65, 75 kids come to vbs, which was pretty good for us.
but for them, they normally had like 800 kids come to their vds, I mean, they literally had like a, a trailer with vinyl wrap of all their logos and everything just for their mission team. And and so I remember them [00:16:00] coming to be like, so is this, you think all that's gonna come? Is these 65 or 75 kids? I was like, I, yes, that's probably all this is. This is very good.
This was a very good turnout. I'm very pleased. I wish you were,
Bob Bickford: Yeah, man.
JImBo Stewart: they never came.
Bob Bickford: been there. I. Yeah, I, and, and that's the thing, man, is I, I was, you know, I, I grew up kind of in the megachurch world and was used to larger events and gatherings, and so you kind of judged, you know, your, your success. And then also, frankly, you, you tended to judge other churches by the same, you know, by your same metrics, which isn't really a fair.
and so I, I'm sensitive to like our bootcamp brothers out there, that, for them, some of them, a EBS of 10 to 12 is a big deal, right? and that's a big deal. Now, be faithful, be, you know, labor well. Be excited about, you know, your events and things like that. But, you just gotta realize that God is the one who grants grace and grows the church and, he does it sometimes in spite of us, , right?[00:17:00]
Definitely not because of us. And so I think the, the thing that we just have to focus in back again, is just borrowing from the, the metaphor. You got a job to do, plow, plant water, and then do those things in a repeated fashion with as much excellence and obedience as you can muster, and then God's gonna grow.
So, so I think faithfulness is the goal. And here's, here's something I've learned, faithfulness. It may lead to fruitfulness or it may.
Here, here's what I think you have to do. You have to expand your definition of fruitfulness because it can be measured in a number of ways. The first one, the development of Christ-like character in maturity among your body.
That is, that is a result of proclaiming the gospel. That's a result of God growing people in obedience. the development of the fruit of the spirit. Right among the body. it doesn't matter. I mean, let's just think, let's just imagine that God grew your church, but they were not growing in the fruit of the spirit.
So you got a really big cranky church and [00:18:00] rather than a, a church that like demonstrates grace and peace and all those sorts of things. And then lastly, Jimbo, I think faithfulness, by God is also our fruitfulness by God is also measured. Those who do come to know Christ and the conversion of the lost in the followers and disciples of Jesus.
But I think it's not just one of those things. It's all of those things, and we've gotta keep that in.
JImBo Stewart: Yeah, I think, it's, I I always like to say focus on the stories and not the statistics. I don't, I, I agree with you. I don't think fruitfulness is the right answer, and I think about in the parable, the talents, what is it that the master says? Well done. Good. Faithful servant. I don't even think the praise is necessarily, I don't think the, the point of that parable is the amount of money that they got in return, but that they did something with it.
That they, invested what God had given them and were faithful. They, they had a job to do and that was to be faithful to do the right things. [00:19:00] God had given them to do and, and to trust him with the growth. God's gonna provide the strength. God's gonna provide all of that. Measure your success on your faithfulness and look for stories more than statistics.
Where are the stories of transformation, that, where you're seeing people grow spiritually, not just in attendance and, attendance is good, but part of even that you have to ask why are they, why are they attending? Are they attending just because they like your preaching style better than somebody else's preaching style?
Well, that's not necessarily a win. That's not necessarily success. That's, that's just sheep shifting. And here's the deal. I don't have a problem with sheep shifting. If it's on mission, if it's, Hey, we feel called to go from this church to this church so we can. Be a part of how God is using that church to serve this community.
But, but if it's because we've been shopping and we like a certain style better somewhere than another because it meets our felt needs better as believers, that's, that's not. [00:20:00] That's not a win. That that's, that's a, that's a net loss. That's, that's zero. That, that's nothing. And so we've gotta see people becoming more like Jesus.
You'll get Ephesians four 11 through 16. It's our job to equip the saints to do the work of ministry. And then that work of ministry is building each other up into maturity, measured by the fullness of Christ. And so we're doing this until we all look more like Jesus. And
Bob Bickford: Yep.
JImBo Stewart: that that that job's not.
Bob Bickford: No, it's never done right. For the senior adult member and for the youngest member, like there's always a step of obedience, there's always a step of maturity that we're, we're, called to take. Right? And then, and then even going back to, I love the fact that you, Brenda, Ephesians four, and it reminds me of the Colossians one passage.
Which is my favorite replanting passage, 1 28 and 29. and Paul says, you know, the, in, in verse 28, him, we proclaim warning and teaching everyone with all wisdom. And here's his, here's what he says after that, that we may present everyone mature in Christ, right? So that's that. [00:21:00] That's the goal he sees.
There is proclamation of the gospel. Warning and teaching, and it goes towards maturity in Christ. So somebody can't become mature in Christ until they believe in Christ, right? So you believe and then you become mature and you live on mission. So, man, just help people take a next step. And so, Early on in your replant journey, maybe fruitfulness is helping people become more obedient and more surrendered to the mission of Jesus than their own personal mission.
And man, that's a win. Celebrate that. Right? Just celebrate that, and then maybe the numeric growth will follow that in terms of others being converted in trusting Jesus. There's gonna be good things that follow from people who become mature in Christ. And last thing I think I would say is most replants are not gonna be nominated for church magazine's.
Top growing church list, right.
That's okay. Right? That's okay. Don't, don't be seeking a reward from men to seek the reward that comes from faithfully fulfilling the assignment God has given you. [00:22:00] We'll, say it again. Plow plant water, right.
JImBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: allow God to grow the church.
JImBo Stewart: Amen.
Welcome back to the Bootcamp! We're jumping back in on our series Stages in a Replant. Dial in, sit back and reflect on what success in ministry looks like! Let us know your comments, thoughts and insights-we'd love to hear from you.
In our examination of the stages in replanting a church we began with the hard work of plowing—which prepares the ground to receive the seeds of the gospel. In the next stage, planting, we highlighted the work of embedding the gospel intof every life and activity of the church.
Today we look at the important work of watering the implanted gospel seeds.
Paul, writing in 1 Corinthians 3, provides us with insights into the unique roles he an Apollos shared in the spread of the gospel.
What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered… 1 Corinthians 3:5-6a
What was Apollos’ work of watering? Acts 18 may provide some insight: Now a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, competent in the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord. And being fervent in (the) spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus… he greatly helped those who through grace had believed, for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, showing by the Scriptures that the Christ was Jesus.
Apollos’ assignment was the clear proclamation of the gospel, rooted in the scriptures, empowered by the Spirit for the practical help and edification of believers and the defense of the faith to skeptics and doubters.
A church that has been in decline may have been lacking: * Consistent and clear communication of the gospel message * Exegetical teaching from God’s word * Spirit empowered preaching * Practical application of God’s truth to everyday life * A powerful apologetic for Jesus in the culture
Replanters and Revitalizers must be fundamentally committed to: * Sermon preparation and evaluation * The centrality of the Gospel in their teaching * The devotion to and reliance upon The Spirit in all of the processes involved in preaching (Prayer, Planning, Preparation and Proclamation) * Equipping and challenging the congregation to respond in obedience in everyday life
Listen on for some practical tips on how to increase your effectiveness in watering the congregation with the word of God through preaching.
Free commentary sites mentioned: * Sonic Light Bible commentary * Free Bible Commentary
Fun links: Bob's Yelp Elite review of the Bill-Hillary Airport in Arkansas
If you've been wanting help with your website check out our sponsor One Eighty Digital. They are leading experts in helping churches get their message out in an authentic and clear way. Tell them you are a Bootcamper!
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp. Bob, I hope you're ready for the next episode. we have been disciplined and mature adults and are recording ahead of time and not the week of, and that means that this. Episode will come out after the Battle of the Boot has already decided whether LSU or Arkansas wins.
But as we're recording, we don't know, but our bet still stands. And when LSU defeats Arkansas, you, I will be meeting you with an LSU shirt to put it on and we'll put it on the social media's.
Bob Bickford: Yes, well, I can, uh, I can pack an extra bag and bring that hog hat like I brought it to New Orleans last year and, uh, You know, I've, I thought about actually wearing that through TSA security, but I thought that might not go so well. I'd really love to see you wear it through TSA security.
JimBo Stewart: Just, I would [00:01:00] just announce the whole time I lost a bet. I lost a bit.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. Or you could call the hogs and that would be even better, but then you might not make your.
JimBo Stewart: Depends on where I am. You never know
Bob Bickford: Yeah. If you were at, uh, Little Rocket, one of the saddest airports I've ever been through a Bill and Hillary Clinton airport. That's just that, that airport needs some attention, man. Last
time I was through there, uh,
JimBo Stewart: No. The Hillbilly
airport.
Bob Bickford: Billy Airport, That was, uh, I think I left a Yelp review on that, Jimbo, in fact, I'm sure of it.
those of you who do not know if you're new listener, I am a Yelp elite, have been so for quite some time. And, search me on the Yelp and, uh, read the, read the, uh, review for Bill and Hillary, their airport in Little Rock, Arkansas.
JimBo Stewart: Oh, the Hillbilly Airport. Well, Bob, I look forward to seeing which one of us ends up losing that bet. we'll have to enter that into social media and maybe some later episodes on down the road, even though it will have already happened when this one goes live. Hey, just as a reminder of [00:02:00] the boot campers, we now have a blog and so each of these episodes, will go out on a Wednesday and then on that following Friday, a blog episode, written a blog, not episode, blog.
Post written by either Caleb Duncan or Aaron Cofield will be going out on Fridays. And then on Mondays they'll be doing throwbacks to old episodes that we've done before. So check that out. And this one will be fun to do in both podcast and blog format cause this is a miniseries. So in our examination, we've been talking about the stages of replanting, a church, and we began with the hard work of plowing, which prepares the ground to receive the seeds of the gospel.
And then we did last week, the second stage. Of planting and we highlighted the work of embedding the gospel into every life and activity of the church. And so today, Bob, we're gonna look at the important work of watering. We've, we have plowed, we have planted. And now it is time to water the [00:03:00] implanted gospel seeds.
Talk to us about it.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. Jimbo, I love this series. this comes from a blog series. I think I wrote back in, I wanna say like 2015, maybe 2016, uh, when we were just starting out churchy planters, and I think you, you had just started connecting with us and. And so I was deep into replanting and thought, Man, what, what is replanting?
Like? And, and ran across this agricultural metaphor of sewing seed. And so the stages, you know, plowing, planting, and now watering, this is kind of the, it gets a little easier here if you got water, right? So, and here's the good news, We got water, right? So, our passage that we looked at, as a foundation was really from first Corinth.
Chapter three, and let me highlight verses three through six. And uh, here's what it says. What then is Apollo? What is Paul servants through whom you believed as the Lord assigned each? I planted and Apollos watered. So Jimbo, there's this, there's this idea that we are workers [00:04:00] in God's field and so we plow, we plant, and then there's also the work of watering.
And so, here, here's some thoughts on watering. What was. The work of watering? Well, one of the things I think you can look at in an Acts 18, if you turn there and look there, it gives us a, a background story about Apollos. Here's what it says. Now, a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus.
He was an eloquent man, competent in the scriptures. He'd been instructed in the way of the Lord and being fervent in the spirit. He spoke and taught accurately the things concerning. He greatly helped those who through Grace had believed for, he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, showing by the scriptures that he was the Christ.
So here's this guy, Apollo, and, and I wish we had more on him in the scriptures. Jimbo, he sounds like a really, really incredible, communicator and
theolog. And apologist, but we just have a little bit and really kind of goes back to the [00:05:00]passage, right? We're not supposed to make much of men and their giftings and their abilities, and so maybe that's why we don't see Apollo much more in the scriptures.
But if we look at that passage, we have to kind of think, Okay, well if this was his role and Paul says that he planted, but Apollo watered, we look at that verse in Acts chapter 18 that really kind of maybe describes what the watering. And so when we think about watering his assignment, really, his gifting and the task that the Lord had for him, as Paul writes about this, it was that he was a clear proclaimer of the gospel message.
That was rooted in the scriptures. It was empowered by the Holy Spirit, and it helped believers grow in their faith. But it also gave a defense of the faith, and it also gave an apology for the faith. Not like a, I'm sorry, but you know, an, a apologist. He, he defended the faith. He advocated for the faith.
And so as we think about the, the work of planting, what's he, [00:06:00] what's he doing? A policy is coming along and watering. the implanted word by proclaiming the gospel.
JimBo Stewart: So why do you think that churches that are in decline, I mean, obviously, most, I, I would, I would. You'd be hard pressed to find one that hasn't been preaching the Bible. even though they've been long a decline, there's been men faithfully standing in the pulpit preaching outta God's word. They're not preaching outta the Book of Mormon, and they're not preaching Bob TH's article on history of heavy metal, but they.
But they are, I mean, they're preaching the gospel. So why do you think churches that have been in decline for a long time have an issue with transformation from preaching? Like, why is it that that's not seeking transformation in those churches?
Bob Bickford: Yeah, it's a good question. You know, I, I think that it's, there, there are a number of reasons that are likely. that could, we could point to, because we, we've all heard the scripture that the word never comes back void, , but it sure seems [00:07:00] like, it sure seems like it's dormant for a while in some congregations.
I mean, you can preach on all sorts of things, right? And so a re planter goes in there, man, and he's like, Man, I'm, I'm preaching, I'm trying to preach the paneling off of the church, right? I mean, just come on. And it's just not taking hold. Maybe he's plowing, maybe he's doing some things. But here, here's some things maybe that contribute to the fact that that preaching hasn't been transformational.
The first one is that, that there, there may have been a lack of clear and consistent communication of the gospel message. If they would go back to the last episode, the gospel's, Not just that Jesus came to die for you. And forgive you of your sins and restore you to God, but it's this whole gospel life preaching that, that you, Jo, you don't just get saved and sit.
Or saved and wait till Jesus comes back. But honestly, Jimbo, a lot of the churches that that I came to, the main thrust of the church was about evangelism just [00:08:00] get saved. And there was not a, a clear delineation of discipleship. Another one is, I don't think that I was exposed to expository preaching until my parents joined another church.
and I was, in, in, about the sixth. Right. And so I honestly, that was, we, you know, man, it seemed like we were in Ephesians five forever, whatever our, our pastor just camped out there like for six months. It was like Ephesians five, right? And that was like my introduction to expository preaching right before then.
I can't tell you. Subject of any sermon that I ever sat under when I was a kid. Like it just was all over the map. Right. And it wasn't expounding God's word. So that may be something. The other thing too, Jimbo, is we, we can't, deny the fact there's something that happens when the Holy Spirit comes in and empowers the word as it's proclaimed.
Right. So you have the gospel proclamation that's empowered by the work of the spirit really is the transformative power. So is the spirit moving? Is there some hindrance to, to [00:09:00] the spirit's work in the church? and then I would add, uh, a couple more things. One is a practical application. Of God's word to everyday life.
Like one of the things I think I've heard you say, and a lot of other people say, So we've read this passage, we've exegeted it now. So what? Right. What is the so what, How is this supposed to make a difference to me? And honestly, I think that application preaching really probably started in earnest in the eighties, probably in the nineties when people were, were you. Determining that we needed to respond to God's word. And some people wrestle with, Well, do I, Am I, should I be crystal clear in application or should I, you know, leave it maybe at like the 60,000 or the a hundred thousand foot level bottom line? I think you've got a point to some response to, to God, the preaching of God's word.
And so, a lot of times the, that may have been lacking and then the last. there, there just may have been a lack of, of just a powerful apologetic for Jesus in the church and in the culture. Like when [00:10:00]Jesus, you can't be neutral on who he is, right? And so if you only preach Jesus, like he's a historical figure. Or a narrative figure or a literary figure rather than the risen Christ, then you're probably, you might be lacking some in, preaching the full, gospel and the powerful word of God.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. You know, they say a large percentage of people do not have the cognitive ability to hear abstract thoughts and turn it into concrete action steps. And
so clear application is super important and certainly it does feel sometimes like. I, for me, I felt like I've preached and it felt like the word came back void.
I believe that the word is true, and so I believe that it wasn't void. but man, there have been some times where I've preached and I felt like, man, I preached my heart out. I know, I, I mean, I know I preached good, true things out of the Bible of how to apply the Bible and the gospel to our lives and, and nothing.
Right? And I remember a dying church that. Preached [00:11:00] at, and man, I came at 'em hard. I mean, I just, I was, I was laying down some prophetic words on Ephesus and the, the letter of the Church of Ephesus and Revelation based on the history of Ephesus. And, I sat down and, response, they sang a funeral hy.
Bob Bickford: Ha,
JimBo Stewart: And I didn't know what to do with that, but , But my wife leaned over to me and she knows music a lot better than I do and she just laughs. She goes, Jimbo, that was a very good sermon and she doesn't always say that, so she says that it was true. She says it was a very good sermon. You did a very good job.
Uh, I don't think they heard you. so. Part of that, and I appreciate you said you may just be plowing Right. at, at some points, especially early on, that you may just be plowing that hard soil, and planting the seeds of the gospel. So, If the public proclamation, skilled teaching of the gospel are central to the development of a healthy and vibrant church, and this is part of watering, and we've done some plowing.
[00:12:00] We've been, we've been planning the seeds of the gospel, we've been preaching and it's felt like the word has become void or maybe we're getting through and we're getting to the other side of that. What are at to the pastor listening to this, to the lay leader listening to this am. What commitments does a church need to make to ensure that they're watering the congregation through the ministry of the word, not just plowing and planting.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, great question. You know, I, I, as you were talking about the fact that, your hard commitment to preaching or your, your devoted commitment to preaching. And you just, man, you are preaching, preaching, preaching, and it just feels like you're plow. I just envisioned the first three years of my replant, it flashed in front of me,
It
was just,
JimBo Stewart: ptsd.
Bob Bickford: I know, and I got tired, Jimbo, I was just like, Oh my gosh, I remember those days. I mean, just like, oh, so tough. but yeah, great question. So what are some, you know, what are some ways that you can, can really, evaluate, [00:13:00] you know, is, am I really watering the congregation well, first one is sermon.
And evaluation. Like, just look at your preparation, your preparation, and then evaluate. And I, what I would say is find a friend, and I've done this, I did this with you, some seasons ago when I was preaching, cuz I honestly, Jimbo, I felt like, man, I think I'm, I'm like a pitcher that's throwing balls all the time.
And I might have beaned a few people in the head and I just mean, I, I need to understand do I, am I missing it here? Have I gotten stale? Have I lost my form? And so, I remember asking you and a couple others, Hey, would you just listen to a couple of weeks at random? You know, I wasn't going to send you what I thought was my best.
Just listen to a couple weeks and just kinda scan through and, and tell me what you, you think. Get some outside eyes and ears to, to look at your sermon, delivery and your content. And does it make sense? Do you have passion? does it hold attention, those sorts of things. And then let that evaluation kind of go back into your preparation and, see if somebody gives you something good to hang onto.
The other thing is just to make sure that the [00:14:00] gospel is central in your teaching. Just, we talked about this in a couple episodes over and over. Just really make sure that the gospel is good news. Like if you're preaching is all angry, bad news and depressing, man, where's the gospel, bro? like, figure it out.
I mean, you gotta get back to the gospel. and think about that. I would say this too, Jimbo. it, it's really important to be, relying on the spirit in all of the processes that are involved in preaching. So like, selection of series, study outlining all, you know, development, writing and delivery. Like just really.
Saturate that in prayer, in planning and, and let the spirit lead. And sometimes Jimbo, I would, um, my normal pattern was to try to outline a passage, read a passage, a bunch, outline it, and then start writing some of it on Monday. I try to wrap that up by about Wednesday or Thursday and maybe let it sit and simmer on Friday, get up [00:15:00] Saturday morning and then sometimes Sunday morning.
And Jimbo, there were a few times when, when I, on Sunday morning, I would be like, you know, I think the busyness of this last week, I missed a few things, and so I would feel sort of, something, what I would call is not a a, a completely new direction, but maybe a fresh enlivening of the material a little bit.
Right when I, when I had maybe really stayed committed on a, a particular illustration or particular structure, and then as I was coming to it fresh again on Sunday before the delivery sometimes is just the sense, the spirit like changing it a little bit. Right now, I don't want, You've probably seen these guys, and I don't wanna be one of these guys that ever gets up in the pulpit and says, Well, I never prepare anything.
I'll just let the Lord speak through me. I don't think so. I mean on maybe once or twice in your life, but on a regular basis. I don't think so.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I mean, I think you gotta be ready in, in season and out of season. And I feel like, I've preached for enough years now [00:16:00] that if I got the call from my pastor on Sunday morning, and he said, Hey, I woke up sick. I need you to. Like, I feel like I could, I could pull that off. I've, I, I've already, I know even this year I did a Saturday night call for my pastor.
But I'm pulling out something I've prepared before. I'm not just, I'm not just winging it complete, complete off of whatever, is in my head. That would be dangerous. ,you never know what might come out. no. I actually, you know, here's the thing. I'm actually pretty comfortable winging it. Like in life in general.
I'm not big. I'm not naturally a planner. I have learned the benefits from experience through of planning, and so I actually found I can feel a lot freer, not more restricted, but freer when I plan my sermon series in advance. And so, I've said it on here before, I always planned a year in advance. And so in September, October, I would be planning the next [00:17:00] year's calendar and I would, I mean, the whole calendar and. And so we'd line out what and what we're gonna go. And man, I can't tell you how many times, Bob, that, something would happen in the world. Something big, like 2020, like everything, like every week something big happened. And, You would be tempted to be like, Man, that was such a big global event. maybe I need to adjust what I'm preaching.
And I would go and there like, sure enough, the text like perfectly addresses exactly what I needed to say. And so I had some people push back and say, You gotta leave room for the Holy Spirit. And as I said, I mean you, I mean, don't limit the Holy Spirit to spontaneity Holy Spirit. Involved in the process of me planning this out in year advance.
And he actually had knowledge what was gonna happen that week. and you know, I did not. And so, so yeah, plan ahead, get evaluation. I try to do that regularly as well. I mean, always, always be sharpening your acts. So, all right, let's, let's move a little bit forward and say we're committed to improving our watering skills.
What are some practical steps that we can take [00:18:00] to continually improve? So we've talked about evaluating and planning. how can we make sure that we're always sharpening that act and improving beyond evaluation?
Bob Bickford: One of the first things, Jimbo, is I think you've gotta have a, a strong personal devotional and prayer life. Like you have to be a follower of Jesus. You have to be a person that's in the.
and cuz we really preach from the overflow, right? And, and so if we are not, if we're not connected to, to the Lord, if we're not praying, if we're not preaching from the overflow, it will feel stale.
It will feel kind of, just a lack of freshness and a vitality to it. So I think that's one riddle, real critical part. The other one is I really do. If you are preaching every week, you would benefit from regular breaks,
right? So every six weeks, or so, you know, if you're in a smaller congregation or if you're, you're the single solo staff person, raise somebody up right to, to help you cuz you, you're gonna need frequent breaks cuz we just get, [00:19:00] we kind of get tired or we get in a rut.
And so I think that's really.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I've, I've had this conversation so many times with guys at churches of all sizes that had talked about how somewhere around 6, 7, 8 weeks it starts to become, More of a burden than a blessing. And there's something about that five to seven week period. And so, man, just from observation, I don't have anything scientific to back this up, but from just a, I mean, probably three dozen pastors that have, I've talked about this with.
It, there seems to be a pretty consistent pattern. And so, and I would just, so I, I learned that years ago and started building that in. And so when I would plan out my sermon series in advance, I would go ahead and, and lay out like, all right, so I'm not gonna go more than six weeks at once. and before somebody else is preaching, even if, and I would say be there, it doesn't have to mean vacation.
Like be there and pastor and sit under the preaching of God's word. don't take that. Every time to go preach somewhere else. You [00:20:00] could, you can go preach somewhere else, periodically cuz you can preach something you've already preached. And so, or even if you don't still, sometimes it's fresh to be in front of a new audience, a new congregation.
But man, just, just. It's also part of developing leaders. Like you can't develop preachers if you don't ever allow them in the pulpit. And if you don't have leaders developed, that's what's your local association, your state convention, sister, churches, the replant hub. I mean, there's just, there's a lot of ways.
If you can't figure out how to do it, reach out to us. We'd love to help you think through that. But there's a way, there's a way that you could, every five to eight weeks you could not be preaching and it'll, it'll refresh your.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, absolutely. You know, have a conversation with your church leadership or that's deacons or, you know, personnel committee or whatever, and just let them know, you know, this is why this is important and, uh, maybe even share this podcast with them. Right. So I think everybody needs a rotation to stay fresh.
I mean, just thinking of baseball season, like if, if you're the, if you're the only pitcher and you're pitching every game, you're really. It, there's some weekends [00:21:00] it's not gonna work, right? You're just gonna, cuz you're gonna be exhausted. Cause pastoring is much more than just preaching, right? It's, pastoring people, it's leading, it's counseling, it's discipling, it's all of those sorts of things.
And so, breaks are important. Couple other things I would say is make sure you have some good study resources and methods and then. Focus occasionally on improving those. Right. Cause I think we have some go-tos that we probably like, that we normally go to for, you know, this. We're just used to using them.
one of the things I would say is with the advent of online bible commentaries and Bible study resources, it is so vitally important to. To, um, to get some of that, to, to use some of that where it's free or not free, or, you know, find a way to, to access those. And here's why. Back in the day, Jimbo, when I was in seminary before we had Bible software.
If you were gonna look at commentaries, you had to go to the library, or you had to purchase a bunch of commentaries and then man, you had to work through them, right? [00:22:00] And you had to look and you had to, to write notes. And then you had to, if you're gonna type that on a paper, then you had to transfer that to a typewriter or a some kind of, you know, word processing.
You know, program on your, your, uh, computer. But man, nowadays the tools and this, the what's available to you is a lot, more helpful in terms of keyword searches and parallel study searches and maps and historical backgrounds and commentaries. And there's so much that's available out there that just, you know, use it one.
You know, you might not say, Well, I don't have the expensive Bible, so man, you don't need it. Go to bible bible gateway.com, go to sonic light.com. Those are some, some resources that are helping put those links in that you can find all kinds of study materials there that are really easy to use. And then, you know, what I would do is when I would get a quote from a commentary or a a source, I would be able to cut and paste it and footnote it real quickly.
So I think that's another thing is get, get some good resources and methods.
JimBo Stewart: some. other good free ones, free bible commentary, dot org. Bob Butley, has just tons of [00:23:00] free resources on there in video, audio, and written and typed. precept austin.org has way more material than anyone ever is gonna have time to go through. and those are all free. I mean, you don't have to pay a bunch of money to get an expensive software if you have access to that, That's wonderful.
We live in a time where you can, A, you can access a pretty large amount of good commentary information for free.
Bob Bickford: It's really good. We'll put some of those links in the show notes too for, for those of you who don't have those. here's one I wanna say with a caution, right? it's helpful Jimbo to listen to other preachers and it's helpful to listen to them for inspiration. Not for content or copying, right? We've been through that whole scenario, you know, most recently in some of our circles.
but man, there's nothing wrong with listening to somebody else. preach on a passage or explain a passage. Cuz sometimes you run into a, a verse or two that you're like, Man, I am not sure how I'm gonna navigate this one. [00:24:00] Right. What's the best way to communicate it? And then maybe you're listening to somebody who's, who's done it before you, and maybe it is you bring, bring their illustration over, Give them.
Proper, you know, citation and all those sorts of things. But sometimes it's really good to hear and to listen the way somebody communicates, not only for content, for structure, but for passion and then for delivery, right? It helps you understand who you are. and this is gonna be counterintuitive, uh, but I'm gonna say this one anyway.
Spend less time in preparation and more time pastor. Right. So here's what I'm not saying. I'm not saying write the Sunday morning special or the Saturday night special. Right? What I am saying though is if you're, if you're putting in, you know, 25, 30, 40 hours in sermon prep, you're not pastoring and you're not leading to the, to the level that would be helpful for you to do so.
So this is counterintuitive, but I think one of the, the best things is just take some time. and spend less time [00:25:00] and do more pastoring cuz you're gonna be able to preach out of your experience in pastoring people.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, you need to have a pulse on what's going on in your congregation and your community and let the word be, be relevant to that because it is, but you need to know what's going on. This is a good word. Bob, I appreciate the work you've put into this outline and, going through this next week, we'll jump in to the final stage growing.
Today we look at the important work of watering the implanted gospel seeds.
Paul, writing in 1 Corinthians 3, provides us with insights into the unique roles he and Apollos shared in the spread of the gospel.
What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered… 1 Corinthians 3:5-6a
What was Apollos’ work of watering? Acts 18 may provide some insight: Now a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, competent in the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord. And being fervent in (the) spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus… he greatly helped those who through grace had believed, for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, showing by the Scriptures that the Christ was Jesus.
Apollos’ assignment was the clear proclamation of the gospel, rooted in the scriptures, empowered by the Spirit for the practical help and edification of believers and the defense of the faith to skeptics and doubters.
Q: Why do you think churches long in decline have an issue with transformation from preaching?
A church that has been in decline may have been lacking:
- Consistent and clear communication of the gospel message
- Exegetical teaching from God’s word
- Spirit-empowered preaching
- Practical application of God’s truth to everyday life
- A powerful apologetic for Jesus in the culture
The public proclamation and skilled teaching of the gospel are central to the development of a healthy and vibrant church.
Q: What commitments do we need to make to ensure we’re watering the congregation through the ministry of the word?
Replanters and Revitalizers must be fundamentally committed to:
- Sermon preparation and evaluation
- The centrality of the Gospel in their teaching
- The devotion to and reliance upon The Spirit in all of the processes involved in preaching (Prayer, Planning, Preparation and Proclamation)
- Equipping and challenging the congregation to respond in obedience in everyday life
Q: Okay, let’s say we're committed to improving our “watering skills” what are some practical steps we can take to improve our preaching?
Sermon Helps
- Prayer/Personal Devotional life-preaching from the overflow
- Frequent breaks
- Improved study resources/methods
- Listening to others (for inspiration, not copying)
- Counter Intuitive-less time spent preparing, more time pastoring
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are. Bob, back at the bootcamp. I hope you're ready for the next episode on the replant bootcamp. As we are now kind of coming into the middle of November, the fall leaves are falling. I actually have fall leaves falling in my front yard. I've got, uh, a, a oak tree in my front yard, and they're actual.
Like brown leaves in my yard right now, which is a pretty rare deal for Florida. it's the only tree I think like in sight that I can see that has actual brown leaves. But we're in fall, we're getting near Thanksgiving, and, which is just a, a great part of the year, and I hope that things are well for you in the st.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, man, it's beautiful. Uh, it's been beautiful with lots of colors. It's not as vibrant because we haven't had as much rain, but there, there are some nice colors. Now, Jimbo, the, the fall is a mixed blessing for me because my backyard is like a forest, and I will have between, you know, 28 and 48 bags of [00:01:00] leaves.
So if you wanna, you wanna send some people up here to help, with the recovery of those leaves, um, I, I would greatly appreci.
JimBo Stewart: I would help jump in a pile of those leaves,
Bob Bickford: Yeah. Yes. Well, you are all about fun. Jimbo. You are all about fun,
JimBo Stewart: Absolutely. Hey, speaking of fun, the fun of replanting we've talked about, we are in a mini series on the stages of replanting. Last week we talked about the, if church planting is like construction, building the trellis for the vine to grow. Church replanting is like farming, and first we've gotta plow until the hard soil, and it does get a little more fun after you get the si, the, the, the soil.
Tiled, if I could say those words. if you can, you can plow the ground a little bit and get it ready. it does start to get to be a little more fun as you enter into the next stage. Just as a reminder to our listeners, you can [00:02:00] not only listen to our glorious voices talk about this, but each Monday we will have a blog post going up on the website.
Based on a previous episode sometime in the history and the archives of the Museum of the Bootcamp, in our three years of Rich History. And then every Friday, the blog posts will come out following that week's podcast episode, giving you more information, in just a different format for different learning styles.
And so if you've read the blog, if you've listened to last week's episode, you know. The four stages are plowing, planting, watering, and growing. And so, Bob, talk to a little bit today about what, when you say planting, you obviously don't mean church planting. so talk to us about what the planting stage looks like in a replant.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, so the planting stage is the work of the pastors. And the leaders to sew the gospel deeply into the soften ground of the church body. So you've been, you've been plowing, you've [00:03:00] been breaking things up. You've been, you know, you've been, been stopping the well worn patterns. You've been introducing a disruptive force to kind of break up the ground.
You've been, been working hard, you've been staying committed at that, not just, you know, one time or through one sermon, but, but the constant work of plowing the ground now leads you to planting and it's planting the gospel. Into all of what you're doing. So, you know, faithfully sowing the, the, or casting the seed of the gospel into lives of the people in your church and the culture of your church is a whole lot more than just clearly communicating the gospel at the end of your sermon.
It's much more than that. And there's a couple of resources I think that were helpful for me in really understanding this. One of 'em was the Gospel centered life by a guy named Bob Thon and Will Walker. It's a great book that they talk about how the gospel transforms us, it saves us, but it also transforms us and continually transforms us.
So let me read this quote. It's a little bit long [00:04:00] quote, but I think it's helpful. It so this many Christians live a with a truncated view of the gospel. The gospel is not, is not just the means of our salvation, but the means of our transformation. It's not simply deliverance from sins penalty, but release from sins power.
The gospel is what makes us right with God, which is justification, and it's also what frees us to delight in God sanctification. And so we really have to think about the gospel. Is more than just communicating the gospel that leads to salvation. It is, is what continually renews us and transforms us. And I think that's so important.
And, and the truth is one of the reasons, uh, the, the multiple reasons behind a church's decline. Are layered and complex. Often Jimbo, they're, they're a result of really kind of misunderstanding the gospel, right? That the gospel is only what saves me. So if I just make a commitment to Christ and [00:05:00] I express that to the church by walking down the aisle or sharing it with the pastor, and then I'm baptized, I'm good to go.
Right? And I'm done. And so I think a lot of times in the churches that I attended as a young person, that was the event. Like get saved and then, you know, volunteer in a ministry, give some money and uh, and tell other people get saved, right? So we get that fire insurance, so to speak, but we, we really minimize the transformation and the sanctification, of, of the work of the gospel in our.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, that's so key that we have to move. I mean, it's, it's not just getting people to pray a prayer, but we've gotta move beyond that to, to transformation. I mean, transformation has to be part of the pro. I mean, you can't follow Jesus and not. Be transformed. that's just not how that works. I love, the illustration that, Francis Chan uses.
I've heard him use what he talks about. He says, What if, what if I showed up late to this event and I was like 20 minutes late? And I [00:06:00] looked just like I look right now, but I said, Oh, I'm so sorry that I'm late. Uh, I got ran over by a semi truck in the parking lot and like, you would immediately be like, Wait, what?
And you wouldn't believe me. Right? And why would you not believe me? Because there's no way you could get run over by a semi truck. And still, I mean, like, you would show signs of it. Like you would, it would look like you've been run. You would be in the hospital, like it would, that would be a transforming experience.
it to be run over by a semi-truck. And in the same way the, the same Holy Spirit that split the Red Sea, the same Holy Spirit that brings the lost into salvation is the one that resides within us as believers. And so, man, life transformation is inevitable. and we have to emphasize that side. I love Bob Thon.
The way he writes. I always just assumed he was an older man. he's like a younger guy [00:07:00] and he is like a big, he has this great ar random article on like the history of punk rock on the internet, by the way.
Yeah. I came across it one day and I was like, Is this the same Bob Boon? And it is exactly the same.
He was like on a sabbatical and he decided on sabbatical to. Uses brain in a different way. And he like wrote this whole article in the history of punk rock and I thought it was really fascinating. So we'll
Bob Bickford: Well, we're, we're gonna have to put that in the show notes. That's gonna be shows. but I, I've actually met with Bob th a couple times and, and had several conversations with him. Uh, the church I was a part of before I replanted was involved in a network of churches and he was part of that. And so I got to be around Bob and, hear him talk and have conversation and share meals with him and his, you know, people.
So he's, he's a good guy. I would've. . Imagine him doing an article on the history of punk
rock. Pretty
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, man. Well, you gotta reach out to him. He needs to be a guest on the podcast and we can, we can have it and well, [00:08:00] here's what we'll do. We'll have him on the podcast and we'll just ask him about the history of punk rock
Bob Bickford: Yeah, He would love that. I think maybe he wouldn't, I don't know. We'll see. You know, the, this idea of planting the gospel and everything is really something that, that you have captured in the, one of the characteristics of a re planter, which is gospel orientation. Can you break that down for us and, and just explain how that looks and, and what that looks like?
Cause I think that's what we're talking about.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I mean, gospel orientation is when you're aligning everything that you do, around the gospel, it becomes the filter, right? And one of the ways you can think about this is, if you read. Business books or you've been in business like, you know, like they'll say like, oh, like a vision statement or a core value, you know, is something through which you filter everything that you do.
at least it's what, it's a way that's supposed to operate. well, I mean, the gospel is our. That's our thing. That's, that's the whole, this [00:09:00] whole thing is about the gospel, and so making sure that we're asking that question and filtering how we handle conflict resolution, like how we think about children's ministry, how we think about our security ministry, how we think about first impressions, all of those things are ways that like we have to think about.
How does the, how do we filter this through the gospel and the gospel? Not just being, like you said, that which saves us justification, but also that which transforms us sanctification. and, and so how are we making disciples? Are, are we doing these things because we've done these events for forever or, or is this in some way serving for the purpose of glorifying God and making disciples?
And if not, then why are we.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. It makes me think of a, in our small group this week at the church I attend, um, we were talking about prayer and mission and, and just this idea that, that the transformation in us [00:10:00] leads us. To engage mission joyfully. And as we engage mission joyfully, the joy that we have in Jesus because of what he's done for us that we didn't deserve should inform the way we do ministry.
And so it reminded me of a, of a revitalization church that I was doing some consultation with. And um, the pastor was fairly new and this was a long established, you know, historic church. And they were, You know, smaller group, primarily older folks, and they ran a food pantry ministry out of a gas station that somehow the church had come to own.
I think they bought the, you know, it was like a, an empty gas station. So you, you roll in there Jimbo, and it's like, You know, this, this old style kind of quick stop gas station and the, the whole garage area was cleaned out and it was like food and clothes and all this kind of stuff. Well, this particular part of town had a lot of folks with mental illness and drug addiction and homelessness, and so the pastor was, was, uh, Pointing to it and he said, Yeah, I'm gonna have to shut this down for a while.
And I'm like, [00:11:00] Really? Why? Why are you gonna have to shut this down? He goes, Well, because our church people are yelling and screaming at the people who are coming for food and clothes. I was like, What? He goes, Yeah. He goes, They're really angry at 'em and they're expecting them. You know, get in line and, you know, not be disorderly and disruptive and all this kinda stuff. He goes, it's, they're not friendly at all. They're like angry and screaming at the people,
and so I'm gonna have to sh I'm gonna have to shut this down.
Well, Jimbo, I, I'm not a smart man, but I'm guessing that the gospel was not, sewn into their response and how they were living out that
that ministry
JimBo Stewart: No, it doesn't sound like, it sounds like they wrote, they, they maybe read the wrong Bob Thon article.
Bob Bickford: Yeah.
Yeah. Maybe about a mosh pit or something, but man, it was, it's just crazy. So think about that, like your finance team, right. Do have, have you sewn the gospel into the finance team? Be because God has been generous with [00:12:00] us. How can we be generous with others, particularly, and I've, you've seen this and I've seen this.
Existing churches have sometimes these large accounts of, of resources that they never
tap and they never touch. It could be used for gospel ministry, right. Chains across the parking lot. Right? And you're next door to a school , right? Well, you don't want those people walking in or, or driving in on your parking lot.
Well, why not? The Lord's been generous with you. Be generous with your facilities. We could go on and on and
JimBo Stewart: I think one of my, one of my favorites is our boss. Mark Clifton always says, when he sees the signs that say no coffee allowed in the worship center or in the sanctuary, I love his response. I don't think I've ever seen a cup of coffee walk into a worship center, not attached to a person. And, and so, and that person needs the gospel.
And so yeah, I mean, we, we have to think through, all, I, I think I may have shared this story before either in person, I don't know if [00:13:00] I've done on the podcast, just a real quick story on talk about the finance team. We had a person on our finance team that. when we did a block party at that time in our neighborhood, there were signs, spinners, you know, like to have the signs that stand in front of, like at a lot of stores in our neighborhood.
At that time, there's not as much anymore, but at that season there were, uh, like every block had some sign spinner, and so we hired a sign spinner for our block party because it was. Because it was contextual fit into our neighborhood, and it would was in particular, I can tell you the guy's name. and we had been sharing the gospel with him.
We had been, we'd built a relationship with this sign spinner and we're trying to share the gospel with him. And so we hired him for like 10 bucks an hour, something like 12 bucks an hour for a couple hours. So not much money to help people see. Block party and come get free food. And one of our finance team members was just appalled that, not that we would spend the money on a sign spinner, but like [00:14:00] in, in their mind it was embarrassing to have a sign spinner in front of our church.
And I was like, Well just look down the road. I mean there's like one on every other block. This is our neighborhood. And we had to have a gospel orientation conversation about, Hey cuz they said this is irresponsible use of money and. And so just talking through like this is not about, are, are we looking embarrassing, but we have to think contextually.
We have to think missionally. We have to think through how the gospel should be the filter for everything that we do.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. So much of, of what we have, seen in decline churches is it's more about the. Right , like, like, do these things. Don't do these things. We, we used to have a sign at the, at the back of our, our property, for the athletic fields. And it was like all about don't do this, don't do that, don't do this, don't do that.
And so what was it communicating? It's like communicating. Like if you come here, we're gonna give you a list [00:15:00] of things that you can't do. We're not gonna welcome and invite you in. And, and it's, I get the, but I get the un you know, kind of the mentality behind it. It's like you've got these resources, you've got these facilities, you don't want people to mess them up.
But, the gospel informing that, recognize that the Lord is giving you that resource. He's given you the opportunity to share those resources in a way that could lead to someone feeling welcomed and wanted and then having a conversation about the gospel. So, so one of the really good books, it's a really, um, helpful book that also talks about gospel orientation as it relates to ministry is a book called Creature of the Word, written by Eric Ge, Gmet Chandler and I think Josh Patterson.
And here's what they say in that book, it says this because church program. Communicate. We must consciously bring the gospel to bear on them. Perhaps in analyzing your programs, you'll discover that your scheduled activities or programs that you scheduled activities or programs because of guilty [00:16:00] obligation.
The gospel, on the other hand, frees us from feverish attempts to appease God with religious activities. The gospel frees us to say no and to rest from our work because we trust his finish. Right, so, So think about the list of activities and meetings and things that churches keep on their books cuz they don't want to cut anything back.
Why don't they cut anything back? Well, they think maybe it's demonstrating that they're not faithful or that they're not dedicated or those sorts of things. Now there's something to be said about frequency of gathering points. In the life of a church. And I think we've seen perhaps Jimbo in some ways the, the trend of cutting everything to like, to bare bones may have limited our ability to disciple people just in terms of frequency of connection.
Right? So, I'm not saying that, that we haven't aired in that way. Perhaps we have. But if we're just doing things out of obligation and we're doing things because we think [00:17:00] God will approve of us more, right? Then, that's not a gospel informed kind of thought. And so your, their chances are that there are programs and activities and even policies at your church that are not informed by the gospel.
And so sowing the gospel into the fact, the, the, the, uh, receptive ground involves this idea of saying how if Jesus was running. Part of our church and this ministry, what would, what might he say about what we're doing? What might he say about these policies? Like looking at how he related to people who were non-Christian.
Right. They, they didn't believe in him. Right? At that point. He was in the process of helping them understand who he was, how, how would he respond. So I think you, you just from top to bottom sewing the gospel is communicating it clearly on Sunday morning, but also thinking about how does the gospel inform everything that you do from the way you welcome guests to the financial policies, to the way you do community
outreach.
JimBo Stewart: I wouldn't say, [00:18:00] not even just how does it inform it, but understanding that our dependence is on the power of the gospel. We, we can depend on nostalgia and just hope that if we keep doing things the same way, That some point we'll get the results we used to get, or we can flip too far the other way and we will depend on our cleverness in our creativity and ability to innovate and come up with whatever and, and, and try to be as strategic as as possible.
And forget that the powers in the gospel. There's a great diagnostic question in, uh, the book Wisdom and Leadership by Craig Hamilton that we've referred to in some other episodes where he says, If people were to look at your programs or your events or your one to one ministry, would they be able to tell that you trust the gospel as God's power to save, or would they conclude that you're trusting in something else?[00:19:00]
Bob Bickford: Mm, That's big. And we tend to do, we tend to trust in a lot of things besides the gospel, right? And the power of God. Um, our, our ingenuity, our cleverness, those sorts of things. Well, let me get to some practical things. How do, how do you sow the gospel in, in a replay? Here, here are a couple of thoughts.
One is, we've already talked about this, but faithfully proclaiming the gospel from God's word. We, we mentioned this on an episode or two, uh ago. Um, it's easy for us to, to say the word the gospel as a kind of a noun. Or an adjective or, uh, you know, part of our regular sermon delivery, but we really have to explain what the gospel is and proclaim it, uh, from, from our, our messages from God's word.
Um, the other thing is dedicating time and energy to disciple making via personal relationships, right? I think you so the gospel into the lives of others as you help them understand what the gospel means. Uh, in their life. It doesn't [00:20:00] just save them, but it continues working for their sanctification and it guides them, brings 'em joy.
Um, examining and evaluating all aspects of church life in light of the gospel is an important one. Like, look at everything, uh, through the lens of the gospel as you mentioned. And then here's an important one, and this really is, is so vitally important to a church that's lost its connection with the community, is extend the gospel message beyond the walls of the.
Through empowering your members and attenders to love and serve their community by doing two things. One is demonstrating the gospel in acts of service and kindness, and then also declaring the hope that you have in Christ. Right. So it's not only just show up and, and be like Jesus and be the hands and feet of Jesus, but actually communicate the gospel of Jesus in terms of its actual transmission.
What is the gospel of Jesus? What's good news that those of us, uh, all of us who've been separated from God by [00:21:00] our sin, can be renewed, redeemed, and restored to God who loves us, And that's why he sent Jesus to die for on the
JimBo Stewart: Hmm.
Bob Bickford: So you have to,
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah. Um. Where do we go from here? Uh, oh, actually, let me ask this. I asked it in the last episode with plowing, if you gave a average timeframe on planting. So we go from plowing, we're tilling the hard soil to now we're doing the work of, uh, sowing the gospel deeply into the. Softened and tiled ground of the church body.
Uh, and then we're gonna move on next week to watering. What, do you have a timeframe you would give to this season?
Bob Bickford: Man, it's hard to think about that in, in just a linear progression because I, I think if. If I hear that question, my mind jumps to well, okay, well do I do that after I think the ground is sufficiently plant [00:22:00] plowed, and then do I ever plant the gospel again? Well, I think you're continually planting the gospel, right?
So maybe you're doing the crop rotation, right? So, so it's like you plowed up the field, you planted the gospel, you're plow up this field and you're planning the gospel. I don't think you ever stop planting it
JimBo Stewart: That's good. That's, that's good to realize that what we're talking about here is not, it's not a linear process in,
but this is, this is, it's kind of a circular, This is, we're always working this, It's the always reforming, always replanting in a, in a sense that, We're always having to find those hard soil parts of even our own soul and our own heart, and till that soil and plant the gospel into it.
And, and then next week come back and we're gonna talk about how to water that soil.
Hey Bootcampers, we’re kicking off a new series, The Stages of a Replant. We’ve found this, church planting is like construction. Church replanting is more like farming. You labor away, plowing the fields, sowing the seeds and watering the rows you planted. And then you wait…..for the growth. One of the keystone verses for Replanters is […]
Welcome back to the Bootcamp! This EP has the guys sitting down with none other than Mr. Practical Shepherding himself, Brian Croft, for a discussion about his new book, Pastoral Friendships. We hear a lot about relationships and even friendships in our day, we also know that as a Replanter or Pastor finding, maintaining and nurturing friendships can be difficult.
We invite you to listen and lean in and discover why, as a Pastor/Replanter friendships are necessary for you and how you can actively become intentional in making sure they are part of your life. * Prioritize Friendship * Pursue Friendship * Persevere in Friendship
Do you have some thoughts or observations? We'd love to hear them. Drop us an email, voicemail or leave a comment about your friendship discoveries.
Get with our good friends at One Eighty Digital, they can help you with your church branding and website needs. Let them know you are a Bootcamper!
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp. Bob, I hope you're ready for the next episode. It is the week of am I a re planter in Louisville, Kentucky. Is that the right way to say it? Louisville
Bob Bickford: most people, Yeah,
Brian Croft: There's eight ways to say it, but I think you're correct, Jimbo.
Bob Bickford: if you're from there, don't you say Louisville,
Brian Croft: Yeah. It just depends on the person really. It, it varies. There's a T-shirt that shows the eight ways you can say it actually. So,
Bob Bickford: Does anyone say
Brian Croft: No one.
JimBo Stewart: No
one.
Brian Croft: No one. I don't even think that's even on the shirt as an option. So,
JimBo Stewart: So this week we'll be in Louisville, Kentucky, doing the Mire Planter with our good friend, Brian Croft, who we've gotten to develop a great friendship with over, over the years doing replant revitalization work together. Brian, welcome back to the Replant Bootcamp.
Brian Croft: Great to be back with you guys. Thank you.
JimBo Stewart: Man, I, I'm excited to have you on here today and talk about one of my favorite topics, just [00:01:00] friendships, I love hanging out with people. I've gotten do some fun stuff with you. You came down to Jacksonville and we, uh, went to a hockey game as a family. It was actually my first, major, It's not even major, but like the most major hockey game I've ever been to.
The first hockey game I went to was in Alaska, and it was like in a high school gym basically. but this was like at the Veterans Memorial Arena, the Jacksonville Iceman.
Brian Croft: Yes, that was a good time. And by the way, when, you know, when, when two of my good friends ask me to come on their podcast to talk about friendship, I'm not sure how you say no to that. So I'm here, you know, here I am. You know, I'm glad I can be here. But yeah, that's feeling pretty obligated to have this conversation with you actually.
Bob Bickford: That was the wise choice, Brian. The wise choice.
Brian Croft: Yeah, that was good. That was, that was a good time on at Doki gave.
JimBo Stewart: Well, part of the reason we wanna bring you down here is one, we just love hanging out with you two. you have just put out, a new book with a couple of other co-authors, one of which will also be at the mi re planter event with us James Carroll, on pastoral friendships. And man, [00:02:00] this is such an important topic, I believe in God's sovereignty, obviously, but in God's sovereign timing. I think this was just timed really well where I think pastors have always struggled with isolation and having a hard time building good friendships. But, Through the pandemic and all the political tension in the country, I feel like it's exacerbated the problem a little bit and made it maybe even more important that we get real intentional about building some friendships.
So tell us just a little bit about like what, what motivated you to write this book?
Brian Croft: Yeah. Well, so this has been an important topic for me also, Jimbo, as it is for you for years and, you know, with, The writing I do with Pral Shey, I, I just don't write for the sake of writing. We've always kind of wanted to fill a gap where there's a, a gaping hole of a resource, and I've, I've not, For years, I've watched friendship be something just not be addressed.
In fact, even when we decided to write this book, I'm telling myself like, all, like, there's gonna be two or three books on pastoral friendship pop up while we're in the middle of this. It's just, everybody knows this is important, but, and there's been a few books on friendship that [00:03:00] have come out in Christian circles in the last couple years.
but still nothing on, like, I can't find anything on pastoral friendship directly. And I had it in a chapter of one of our books and that was it. And so that, that's when we came together and said, Yeah, this, I mean, this needs to be done. And so, that was the burden. I mean, when we're, we're trying to fill the gap, the gaps in pastoral resources, this was always, this been a glaring gap for years.
And I'm convinced that to your point, I mean, pastors arguably need friends more than. Because pastors don't have the same ability to make friends in their church that church members have with each other. So if pastors aren't proactive to try to find those friendships other places, they just don't have friends.
And, and it just, it just feeds the isolation and loneliness.
Bob Bickford: Brian, you work with a lot of pastors and particularly a lot of students who are, going to school, finishing their degree and pastoring. So you see guys that are just starting out. What are some of the common barriers or pushbacks that guys. Have or excuses they make regarding not really [00:04:00] taking pastoral friendship series.
Brian Croft: Well, I think a couple things coming to mind. One is guys just don't realize how important it is. So I think there's two lies that pastors believe. That are a part and accept, accepted as part of the calling of God to be a pastor. And one of them is I have to sacrifice myself for the ministry so they don't take care of themselves.
And two, I have now giving up the right to have meaningful friendships because I'm a pastor. and I think both of those are lies. And I think if both of those, anybody who, kind of functions in that, in those lies, usually don't last long in the ministry. So, deep conviction as you guys do. I know that, you know, pastors have to take care of themselves.
Uh, other people don't take care of them very well. So pastor has to really be mindful to care for his own soul, care for himself and his life and to get rest and, and all those kinds of things. But I think friendship's the other side, I think guys think that they just don't, get to have friendships because that's just part of the call.
It's part of what they're, they're giving up so they don't get to take care of themselves. [00:05:00]They're never gonna be wealthy, and then they don't get any friends. Those are kind of the three places everybody assumes it's part of the pastoral call. And I, you know, well, you know, none of us are wealthy. That's probably true.
But the other two are lies. And, the second thing that comes to mind is that, That guide pastors guys don't pursue friendship because they see it's a lot of of work, a lot of extra work to be a pastor and find friendships. So they're looking at their ministries and all the things they have to do there.
They're looking at their families and they wanna invest time there. I watch a lot of guys just, they just don't prioritize, being a friend because, and having friendships. There's just not the time. So you really gotta be intentional to try to look for. And you're not guaranteed you're gonna find it either with, even if you make that effort.
So I think that just discourages guys from even going.
JimBo Stewart: Do you think one of the things that makes pastors not do this, you said maybe the the hard work that it takes, but. As a pastor, there's so much expectation on you to give your relational time to your members, and most pastors have very little relational time [00:06:00] left over, even for their spouse or their children.
And so the idea of finding the margin now to also develop a friendship, I think it becomes easy to kind of cut off and go, Okay, that. It's just not when I have time for, because any free time I have really needs to be given to either my members or my family, and then there's just not any left over. So how, what would you say to that struggle that pastors have
Brian Croft: Yeah, well, I think it's, this is also connected to what I mentioned a minute ago, and that's a conviction that a pastor has that he's gotta take care of himself. And friendship is part of that, of taking care of yourself. So, you know, Jimbo, that that limited margin is true for. Exercise, isn't it? It's true for am I gonna only sleep six hours because I got all this to do, or I'm gonna fight for myself and get the eight hours of sleep that I need?
And I think friendship falls into the same category. It's it's a place that we trim when the margins get tight. And so I, I think it all falls into the category of, it's not just okay. It's, it's [00:07:00] good. It's essential that I do the things in my life. That were gonna be actually good for me and will take care of me.
See, just some people hearing what I just said are gonna think, Man, that feels really selfish now, Pastor, I'm giving my life to everybody else. Isn't that part of the deal? And that's the, that's the the thing that a lot of guys miss, guys who realize it's not selfish. It's actually smart and wise and good.
And the key to longevity is that I, I fight to. Sleep at night. I fight to get some rest time and vacation up, and I fight to be able to have other relationships of people who will, who will be mutual relationships, not just the people in my church that I care for. Now, I believe you can find friendships in your church and that that's, that's great if you can do that.
But there's still a lot of limitations around that. So I always encourage pastors, you need to pursue friendships in your church. and you need to pursue them outside the church. And hopefully you have friendships in both places, but if one area is not working out real well friendship wise, you have another option.
But when you just kind of pursue like, I'm just gonna pursue friendships [00:08:00] in my church, but that's not working out well. Pastors find themselves and their wives find this is, they don't have any friends because they look for it in just one.
Bob Bickford: Brian, some guys are hearing this and they're probably saying, You know what? I just moved to the area. That I'm pastoring in. I've just called to the church and I'm, I'm getting to know some people within my church, but I do agree I need some pastoral friends outside of the church. What are some suggestions you might have for them in terms of practice?
How can they begin taking steps towards developing these kinds of friendships that you're describing in your book?
Brian Croft: Yeah. Well, I think the, the key to pastors finding friendships is gonna be with other pastor. They may find it in the church within. That's great if they can. But there, you know, you guys know this is just a, it's a, it's a meaningful fraternity and you're able to connect with guys. Only a pastor knows what it's like to be a pastor.
And so I think when you move to a new area and you're looking, where do, where do I start to try to connect? I think trying to connect with other pastors over the churches, this is where the strength of the SBC needs to be. Celebr. [00:09:00] That's, We have local associations, we have state conventions. We have these things that you can tap into regardless of where you are in the, in a city, in a state, whatever it is.
Now, Granite State conventions and local associations are, some are doing this better than others, but that is the place to start. I think Bob, like you connect with potentially like-minded guys and begin to try to develop those friendships. Hopefully if a local association is doing their job, they're bringing pastors together.
On a regular basis to be able to develop those relationships and find those friendships. So I think that's the place to start. Honestly, the other place I found this later in life that was so crucial for me is finding friendships outside my church of people who aren't pastors. So, you know, Get to know the parents where your kids are playing ball, you know, get to, you know, whatever your school activities are.
Like, get to know the, the parents of the kids that are your kids' age and try to develop some of those, those friendships, I think, and again, that gets us out in the community. It's, it's an opportunity to meet people as well, but I think [00:10:00] to do so, seeking to find some, maybe some meaningful friendships with somebody who doesn't want you to be their pastor.
JimBo Stewart: One of the things I appreciate about the way that you put this book together is the first part of it is looking back, and so you, you look back into some past, some friendships in scripture and some historical friendships. just give, give us a little bit of insight, into that first section of the book.
Brian Croft: Well, I some it, some people will see just the brilliance of Michael Hagen. It's really fun to have had him be a part of this book as well. But those who know Michael Haen, he is arguably the, the premier stor historian in certain areas of Trics as well as 18th Century Baptist, English Baptist Life.
And it was, you know, he's the guy to bring in like the most abstract like examples of like, you know, like the fourth century and then like the 16th century that nobody's ever heard of. And we were like, Yes, we love it. Like, let's, let's do it. You know? And in.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I was looking at this in Theta. I was looking at this and I was like, I don't know who these people are. I don't think.
Brian Croft: That was part of the [00:11:00] charm. We thought Jimbo was like, Why talk about Spurgeon's friendships when you can hear about this guy that you've never heard about before? You know? And actually that was intentional. And of course that's part of, I mean, that's what makes Hayan such a brilliant historian is he knows these examples that nobody else does and he, and he brings them in as an example.
That these are friendships that existed hundreds of years ago. This, this is part of living the Christian life throughout history, is that you actually had, uh, meaningful friendships and friendships among leaders who were, who were in ministry. And I do appreciate the way that Michael, uh, you know, approached that and brought those examples in.
But the idea is to kind of establish this is not a new idea and, and that friendships. Are to be a part of. I mean, you read the New Testament, you just see the affection between men. particularly you got Paul writing to Timothy. Yeah. It's a mentoring, you know, mentee relationship. Man. There's a deep affection that existed there.
You see, you see the affection that that different [00:12:00] men had for each other when you're. The, you know, acts and you're seeing how the church being established so that that's a, that's embedded there, That affection that, that people have for each other, that comes out of the Christian faith that we all share.
And then throughout history to, to study history and to see how people have interacted. That's why we started the book with, Spurgeon and, and Brown. Because, you know, everybody loves Spurgeon, you know, and, and I'm a big Spurgeon fan as well, but my, one of my favorite things, but Buyer cuz I read, it's a, it's a book on, Archival Brown.
It's his biography. He's a Spurgeon successor, but that's where that intro came from. That's one of the most powerful examples of pastor to pastor friendship I've ever read about. Everybody, you know, everybody talks about Spurgeon and he's a line in the pulpit and he's, you know, brown pastor to big church.
Well, what people don't know that, that Ian Murray brought out in that biography, which was, which was just so inspiring to me, is, is that archival Brown lost three wives in 10 years. And the main person who grieved with Brown and cared for him during that was Spurgeon [00:13:00] and his friendship. And there's this beautiful section of the book where it's articulated on how Spurgeon cared for his friend and all that grief.
Brown, you know, Brown preached the funeral Spurgeon. A lot of people don't know that, but Brown was able to speak outta this really sweet, kind of intimate male friendship that existed among them. And that's really what we wanted to advocate for. And I think you have to look back and see history to realize.
This is not only pastors did this, but pastors did this to actually sustain themselves in the ministry.
Bob Bickford: Brian, one of the things that is challenging is that we're friendly with a lot of people, but friends with very few, truly, and it's a challenge to go from, Hey, I'm friendly with this person to, I actually would call them a friend on a deeper level. Can you give us some sense of how do you go from being friendly with several people to finding those deep, rich friendships with perhaps a.
Brian Croft: Yeah, you, you. Well, I think we all function that way. I think you have to recognize that pastors are no different. Can we all [00:14:00] agree guys that, that everybody functions that way. We're friendly to a lot of people, but there's a smaller group of people that we would consider friends that we bring into our inner circle, you know, whatever that is.
And pastors are no different. I think we just have to be a bit more intentional and calculated about who that is because, you know, this is, just wanna highlight one of the friend, one of the, challenges that, that every pastor listening to this will know. And that's, you know, trying to find a friend in our church.
How do you know somebody who really just wants. Be a friend and love you for who you are or wants the inside track and all the church business and wants to be close to the pastor. That's one of the main reasons it's hard to be a pastor and have a lot of friends in the church without having to try to figure out how to be wise, you know, in the midst of that.
Having said that, I do believe you can find meaningful friendships in your church that you pastor, but we have to acknowledge, we have to be kind of more careful and discerning about what that might look like. So I think we have to function like everybody else, but I do think that that we, we have to go the extra step to know, [00:15:00] is this person, you know, really a friend to me?
Is there somebody? Here's the question that I always ended up at. So I went through a series season. Four or five years ago of, of loneliness. And I, and I had a trouble identifying what was going on when I came to realize what was happening and where the loneliness was coming from. It came from, I'm pastoring a church and so I have all these people who want me to be their pastor and that, and I'm doing this ministry to with pastor, so I have all these pastors who want me to be their pastor.
And I found out that, that everybody wanted me to be their pastor that was in my life. And it created this sense of loneliness because it felt, even though I enjoyed being with people, I enjoyed, Caring for people. It, it felt very one sided in a lot of ways. And I realized I needed to go find some friendships of people who wanted to care for me as much as I wanted to care for them, but also just wanted me, for me, not what I could do for them.
And I think that's the big distinction on how you identify those close friendships. It's the guys that want you just because you're you, not because of what you can maybe provide for them [00:16:00] or give them. And I've found some deep, meaningful friendships outside my. Of guys who weren't pastors, so they didn't want me to be their pastor.
And actually four or five years ago, I just had about two or three friendships. That became very meaningful to me because I realized that's what I needed. It was, again, that was different than I needed 10 years ago, but this is what I found I needed and identified it in the loneliness I was feeling. So every pastor, I think has to figure out, what do you need?
It's okay for you to pursue what you need once you realize what that is. And I think that's how that smaller circle gets established.
JimBo Stewart: Early when I started ministry, I felt like I got a lot of conflicting advice on how to handle friendships within the church. A lot of pastors would tell me, You don't make friends with people in the church because they're, they're gonna burn you. but then it just felt counterintuitive to how God's wired me.
And so me and my wife talked about it and made a commitment that we would, we would develop friendships within the church, but like most pastors, we did get burned a lot. And, you know, One because of that one way street of [00:17:00] relationship that you talk about how they just wanted things from us. And then two, a key moment for us was there was a young couple that we, man, we had done their premarital counseling.
We had, I'd officiated their wedding. We'd been very close to them. and. we'd even just brought him on as a deacon at the church. They came over to our house, we're having dinner, having a great time, laughing and just enjoying each other's company. And then it was like we could literally feel like the temperature decrease in in our house.
And all of a sudden their accountants changed and they just said, We feel like God's calling us to another church and they start telling us like all these reasons why they've gotta go to another church and they don't even have another church picked out. And Bryan, they wanted us to help them pick out what church they needed to go to.
Brian Croft: Well, that's what friends do. Jimbo, Come on,
JimBo Stewart: and it was, and you know, we put, we put on a brave face and we made it through that dinner. It was rough though. And here's what I wanna tell you though. For my wife. For my wife, that was [00:18:00] brutal. She sat down later that night after they left and she wrote down the names of everybody we had had over to our house for dinner that was no longer at our church cuz either they moved or they chose to go to another church or something like that.
And I don't remember how long the list was, but it was longer than I thought it would be.
and she looked at me and she showed me the list and she said, How do we. How do we keep doing this? How do we keep being friends with people and, and they're gonna leave? And so talk about that. Navigating the friendships within the church.
What is the wise way to go about that?
Brian Croft: Yeah, that's a great example. By the way. I think a lot of guys will be able to resonate with what you, what you just said. And I think, again, that that's what, I'm not the guy that say don't, don't have friendships in the church. They're loaded and dangerous, but they just, they are. but I don't think that should prevent us from pursuing the friendships.
But I do think we need to have realistic expectation of what a friendship in the church looks like, and we gotta be careful about what that [00:19:00] means. The second thing I have found is my most meaningful friendships I found in our church as I was the senior pastor, were with other fellow pastors, or even just leaders in the church, guys that were assuming, assuming the similar burdens I was carrying in the church.
And there's a camaraderie there. There's a like-mindedness there. I think it allows, it kind of, it creates a peer to peer relationship more so, and I found my, my closest friendships, the people I trusted, really knew me and loved me and were truly my friend, were people who would, would fall into that category.
Now I had, I had a guy that, you know, I'd go watch, you know, he had this man fort in his basement. I'm a big football fan. He's a big football fan. Like, I went to his house, watched all the games. We had a good time, you know, But I was not burying my soul to him in any of our conversations. This is not the relationship we had.
So I think that's the third thing I would say is, you know, you can ha you can have friendships that provide a certain level of joy for you and them, and they don't have to be your, your [00:20:00] best friend. And I think that's the other thing is, it's kind like we approach friendship. Sometimes I'm, I'm seeking to find my best friend all the time is gonna be my, my soulmate of a friend.
And it's like, yeah, I mean that most of our friendships don't ever become, So I think we have to have an expectation of, you know what, I have these five friends and I could, I can articulate to you why I invest in this friendship and why I enjoy it. But this friendship over here is different than that one.
And, and I think, by the way, I think that's also an important way for us to approach our marriages. The guys who think their spouses provide every single piece of relational, you know, connection and you know, everything that we need relationally. I mean, that's just, that's just too much to put on a spouse.
I, I think that's another reason we need friendships. It brings some relief off of our spouse having to try to meet every single one of those relational needs that we have. And I think as pastors in the church, we have to kind of approach friendship in a very similar way. The expectation is what, how we maximize, I think, the joy out of whatever we're getting outta that friend.
Bob Bickford: [00:21:00] That's really good. so much of the time we, we know this intuitively that there, that friendships form organically, right? And there are some of those God ordained for friendships that, that happened in our life where it was like, man, we, I didn't see this relationship coming in terms of, of God providing me a brother who would be a lifelong brother.
That whether we're together or we see each other at the state convention or the annual meeting, you know, we pick up where we left off. There's some of those, those wonderful friendships. Brian, if as you think about the, the representation of friendships through history and scripture, which, which one or ones that stand out to you to go, Man, this is just really, when I think of friendship, this is really a sweet one for me.
Brian Croft: I, well, I, the one that rushed my mind and the one I, I mentioned, you know, to you before with, with Spurgeon and Brown, and that's the one that's kind of overlooked because, you know, again, Spurgeon is celebrated for so many other things. , but I think it showed just the tender side as Spurgeon and Brown.
And, and I think how, you know, let me say this, I think a lot of [00:22:00] men in America, you know, think that friendship is this kind of kind of tough guy club where we, you know, we do roughneck stuff and we hit each other in the arm and we watch ball games and eat hot wings together. But there's, there's not a level of, of emotional intimacy and, and I think.
those are the relationships that I think really show, true friendship and the things that, that last, So I think Spurgeon and Brown is, one that that comes to my mind. You know, I think the, you know, just reading the Pastorals and seeing the relationship that Paul and Timothy had and you, you hear about, I mean, Paul's writing, like I'm writing and I'm thinking of you, and tears are in my eyes as I think of you.
You know, the, it was a, it was a fatherly type relationship, certain. But man, there was this, this emotional connection that I think a lot. A lot of men who are, who are raised to be tough guys and are, emotionally shut down, do not have the capability of doing. And I think that is a really important [00:23:00] piece to having a meaningful friendship, among men.
And so, but yes, Virgin Brown, that's why I like that example. Kind of two giants and lions in church history that people celebrate. Uh, another example I would give is there's a book called Wise Counsel. Banner Truth publishes it. One of my favorite books, it's, it's John Newton As an old man, everybody knows Newton Is, is, you know, famous for all his letters that he wrote.
Well, it's a book about Newton writing letters to John Ryland Jr. So it's Newton is this old wise pastor, basically mentoring Ryland through his letters, and it's called Wise Council. It's a beautiful book about, you know, that's again, a pastoral mentoring relationship, but man, It's more than that. So I think the relationships that show that this is not, that, that it goes deeper than a superficial level of, Yeah, we love hanging out and having some laughs, which are, is good.
But you know, where, where do I go? I always say this, Everybody needs a friend that they're gonna call when you get one phone call and that you need 'em. Come bail you out in prison.
You know, who are you, who are you calling in that moment, you're probably not calling the dude you [00:24:00] go and, and have some laughs with and eat hot wings with though I love.
I'm gonna call the guy who I know loves me. It doesn't matter what I, he's not gonna judge me. Like he's gonna loves me. He's gonna be there and he's gonna come bail me outta jail. You know? Or he is, you know, I, whatever it might be, whatever scandalous place I'm in, who am I calling in that moment that, uh, that everybody else is gonna shun me with?
Like, we all need those kinds of friendships. And I, I think that's the kind of level of intimacy among friends we need to find.
JimBo Stewart: So, man, I just would recommend to our boot campers grab you yourself a copy of Pastoral Friendship, the Forgotten piece, to a persevering ministry. I know this is such a hard thing. For guys who are driven in, kind of really task driven especially, and, try to be hyper productive to make time to.
Build up friendships for themselves, but I, I appreciate how you talk about it as a conviction. This is not just something that maybe you could add if you have time, there needs to be a conviction that you need [00:25:00] this, that this isn't, this isn't selfish, it's smart, that maybe your local association is a good place to start.
go there, try to build some pastoral friendships and have some realistic expectations with friendships within the church. But you can't do this alone. You're not gonna be healthy without some level of friendship and, and some guys one that you can go and you can share your struggles with that aren't a part of your church, but understand what it means to be a pastor is obviously helpful.
But then also guys that you can go and not talk about church. And not talk about the struggles, but you can just eat some wings and you can be watching football. You can be emotionally vulnerable. You can do all those things and punch each other in the arm. But go out there and, and make, make some friends.
Brian, I'm so grateful for you. I'm grateful to call you a friend. Thanks for being on the bootcamp with us today.
Brian Croft: thanks guys, and I want you to know that I feel comfortable calling either one of you if I need to be bailed outta prison. I just wanna be on record, so
appreciate
you all's.
Bob Bickford: That's good. We're hoping you don't go to prison.
Brian Croft: Just stick with the illustration anyways.[00:26:00]
JimBo Stewart: Have you ever gotten a come bail me outta prison
Brian Croft: No, I have not. But hey, life, Life is young, you know, so I got a lot of years left. Hopefully to be able to maybe experience that, especially if it's a pastor,
that would be really
JimBo Stewart: I have.
but we'll leave. leave that story for
Brian Croft: That's the next episode, Jimbo, you know.
Want to dive deeper? Check out this blog post Welcome Bootcampers! Today Jimbo and Bob get down to the serious business of talking about the lifecycle of a church. Seasons of growth, plateau and decline are present in almost every church at some point in its history. For some churches a season of decline could […]
Want to read more? Check out this blog post here This EP found our guys reminiscing about Ian, the recent Hurricane that hit the Florida Gulf Coast. Please remember to pray for our friends in FL and for the churches doing ministry there and for the Relief efforts continuing to take place. In this important […]
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp. Bob, I hope you're ready for the next episode. Diving back in the nice, cool below 80 degree weather of a Florida fall.
Bob Bickford: Jimbo, what is, what does the Florida fall look like? What's the appropriate apparel for a Florida to fall?
JimBo Stewart: It has to be layered because as we get into winter, here's what's gonna happen when you wake up. If you're an early bird like myself, when you wake up, it's gonna be like 40 degrees outside, 35, 40, which is frigid down here. That's just insane, but, By noon it's gonna be, it's gonna be tipping back in the upper seventies again.
And so you really, it's like, and this is a, at that point, my body will lose its mind and I will begin to get a sinus infection because it doesn't know what to do with the rapid. It'll, we'll have a 40, you, you'll have a 35 to 40 degree shift in temperature [00:01:00] from early morning to afternoon. And so mornings are, I'm bundled up, man.
And if I go outside, I mean, I'm. Full thing, just bun on the whole body, but then you, it's gotta be something you can take off because it's gonna be 75 to 80 degrees by one o'clock.
Bob Bickford: So are we talking like winter coat? Are we talking hoodie? Are we talking, you know, beanie, what? What are we talking here? Because 35 and 40. here in Missouri in the winter is like a spring day, Jimbo.
JimBo Stewart: No, man, I, I'm good. That's why I'm glad to be where I am. there's a lot of things.
Bob Bickford: The first time we brought you to St. Louis. Wasn't it like 20 below or something like that? It was like
JimBo Stewart: It was insane and I was stressed out. It, I didn't even know how to, I didn't even to.
Bob Bickford: Well, that's awesome. Well fall here is glorious and beautiful. We break out the flannels, we bring out the vest. And speaking of vests, the replant vest, the Carhartt replant vest, I think we might be outta stock, but we'll get some more in. So go check it out@replantmerch.com [00:02:00] and uh, check that out.
JimBo Stewart: Hey, speaking of going to the websites, you ought check out, we're gonna put a link in the show notes, look up the am I re planter at the end of October, end of this month, by the time you're listening to this. And, man, we'd love to hang out with you if you're a rookie novice to replanting revitalization or you are considering it.
This is kind of like you. Intro Replant 1 0 1, Revitalization 1 0 1. Introduction to some of the things that you need to know. Introduction to resources you need to know. We're gonna talk through what is the difference between replanting and revitalization. We're gonna talk through the life cycle of a church.
We're gonna talk through how to understand your missional context. We're gonna talk through the characteristics every vital and re planters and more. There'll be breakout sessions for the wives. Our wives will be there in Louisville O'Brien Croft will be there. Hanging out at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.
you don't have to be a seminary student there, It's just, they're just hosting it. And man, we'd love to see you there.
Bob Bickford: And we will be there. Jimbo and I will actually be there
JimBo Stewart: [00:03:00] Yeah,
Bob Bickford: in the flesh.
JimBo Stewart: we will be there. And look, it's, it's late October and it's north of Florida, and so I might be wearing that replant vest.
Bob Bickford: you will be wearing that replant vest and hopefully there's still be some beautiful fall leaves. On the trees. The, the campuses at Southern has gorgeous, gorgeous trees and foliage, so, um, hopefully they'll still be on.
JimBo Stewart: Good man. Hey, this week Bob, we're gonna catch, we're gonna catch back into the conversation we were having last week. if you have not listened to last week, I'd recommend that you go back and listen to. Last week we talked about how, there's this kind of dichotomy of pragmatism versus overly theological, what Craig Hamilton calls functional hyper Calvinist and.
We're gonna dive into this idea. We talked a lot more philosophically last week about how we should pursue and think through pragmatism. And the pragmatism in and of itself isn't bad, but the focus on immediate results, really lacks the tactical patients that you need to lead in church revitalization, replanting, [00:04:00] because God really often calls us to the long game.
Discipleship is a long game. Revitalization replanting is a long game. And then we also have to consider the dangers of unintended consequences when you jump ahead just to make things happen. There are probably gonna be unintended consequences. So here's how we, here's how we ended last week and is how I wanna begin this week. Proverbs 14, 12 and 1625. Both tell. There's a way that seems right to a man, but it's end is the way to death. Hamilton says, Pon by itself doesn't work, but of course we wanna do things that work. And the idea of doing things that work is a good one. But what we need is a way of knowing two things, one.
What does success look like in the first place, and how do we know if what we're doing is working? And two, what guidepost can we set up before we start to help start to help us evaluate whether something is working or not. And so he says, We need some principles that will help us assess what will work.
And work long term to [00:05:00] achieve exactly what we're seeking to achieve. What we need is principled pragmatism, and as a Christian leader, our principles are theological, and so we need theologically principled pragmatism.
Bob Bickford: Man, That's a good word. we were talking about last week that the necessity for having. some guidance or principles by which you make your decisions and evaluate those. And again, I think we, we talked about this last week too. Not just you alone, like being, trying to be the smartest guy in the room by yourself.
But leading others to think this way too, right? Because I mean, if you're developing as a leader, Jimbo, and let's say you, you develop in this particular area and you develop theologically, principled, prag, pragmatism, and you're the only one in the room, it's gonna be a battle every meeting you have with your, your deacons, your church council, whoever it is, that our decision makers, So I.
As we talk through these, one of the things I think would be helpful is for guys to imagine how they might bring others along in this development process and how, how you guys could share these [00:06:00] ideas, in a group, maybe even get the book that we're, we're, uh, talking about here, and read through that with these leaders.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. I'll tell you, this book was recommended to me by Mark Haack. Happy huggy haack. And, it's, it's been so rich. I have so enjoyed reading this book. it's one of the most theologically grounded. approaches to leadership that I have ever read, really, that that does not completely throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to learning some best practices and principles while remaining in the guidepost of being.
Theologically and biblically grounded. And so he says, When we trust the Bible as a supreme authority and the gospel is God's power to bring about lasting salvation and lasting change, then we have access to the guidepost that we need. God himself tells us what he wants us to do, what he wants us to be doing.
And he gives us some broad methods and boundaries. And so as we pursue truth to, as we pursue truth and seek to thank God's thoughts after him, biblically and theologically, Certain foundational principles [00:07:00] for what works will become clear. So, like, for example, Bob, when it comes to effective preaching and disciple making, which we're called to do as we lead churches, that some of the primary work that we're given to do is preaching and disciple making.
He says God won't do it any way other than through the gospel. and so you're, if you're preaching. Is not pointing people to the gospel and you're not. If you're just developing leaders and not raising up disciples in the gospel, you're not, you've fallen way outta the guidepost. Now, should, should the gospel presentation be 10 minutes?
Should it be 10 hours? Should it be at the beginning of everything you do? At the end of everything you do, in the middle of everything you do. Should it be? I mean, really we start to get into some of these things, order of service and those sorts of things. And the Bible doesn't give us deep specifics on exactly how that has to go, but it does.
The Bible does give us some theological principles as guideposts that we've gotta live within.
Bob Bickford: [00:08:00] Then this is the question that I think all of us have come to regarding. Our practice as, as pastors and leaders. Okay, what do we do with kids? What do we do with announcements? What do we do with, our small groups and what do we do with our fellowships? All of these sorts of things. We have done a really good job, I think, in the Baptist world of giving people practices on how to lead those individual things, but we've probably not given, good in instruction or information on how to think.
Theologically and how to connect all of these to the gospel, right? I think there's been some really big books that have been like Center Church and those sorts of things that have really tried to understand how do we connect all these. So I think in some ways, resources like that take this question and then try to flesh it out in practice.
So it's important for us to ask. Good questions that help us refine our practice. But if I'm understanding what Hamilton's doing here, he's tying this back to the gospel, is that correct? Jimbo?
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. And so, I mean for us, so last week we talked about, that really [00:09:00]points us to the characteristic of tactical patient. What we're talking to right now, is, is the characteristic of gospel orientation. So gospel and gospel orientation refers to aligning the culture and the practice of the church in such a way that the core doct into the gospel drives its mission and practice in preaching, managing conflict, and leading organizational change. This is where, So the guidepost is not pragmatics. Hey, what's gonna work? What's gonna get me the biggest crowd? What's gonna swing momentum the fastest? What's gonna bring us organizational stability the fastest and the quickest? That's not the guidepost. The guidepost is the gospel. How does the gospel inform?
How we approach children in children's ministry and what we do with them. Now, here's the thing, I don't think the Bible tells you whether you should have a children's church moment in church or, in, in the service. Or do you send them to Children's Church to be discipled and led by other adults, Why you're preaching to the adults, or should you have family services where [00:10:00] everybody's sitting in the sanctuary together?
I think you could make some arguments for any of those, but I don't know that the Bible. Gives you a hard line guidepost on which of those approaches you have to take. The point is not. On that. The point is, are you pointing kids to the gospel? Are you pointing people to the gospel? Is is the way that you approach music ministry oriented around the gospel is the way that you approach even your security ministry, even like even the way like security ought to be oriented around the gospel.
Everything you're doing has to be informed by and oriented around the gospel.
Bob Bickford: Yes. And, I think explaining what the gospel is is important as well. Because one of the things I noticed, you know, several years ago as part of a church that was big into the Gospel coalition, Keller movement, all this kinda things. So it was like , It almost seemed like it was your goal to, in your writing, in your speaking, in your [00:11:00] preaching, say the word gospel as many times as you could. Most of the time you didn't unpack it, right? And so here's, here's what I would, here's my suggestion. Say the word gospel fewer times, but make sure the theme of the gospel in terms of God's love for us, God's sending Jesus to die for us, are utter dependence upon God's sufficient work in Christ, to lead us towards salvation and transformation.
Those kinds of themes being built. The fabric of your church and your leadership. And your communication,
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I mean, there's no point in leading a church where you get to leave the guidepost of the gospel and go just to pragmatics. But here's the thing, So pragmatics is about doing things that that work. Hamilton argues that doing things that work isn't the problem. The problem comes when we. What to do based on what seems to work rather than what on God ask us to do [00:12:00] to.
What works isn't a reliable guide for what's right. just because something works. I've heard somebody say before, I'm not interested in what works. I'm interested in what God has asked us to
do. And I, I remember, I, I may have told this story on here before. I remember having lunch with a pastor, a replant pastor who his, it was a church plant that merged with a dying church.
And the church started to grow dramatically. I mean just really fast. And he was coming under some fire within our community because of a theological difference, ales theological difference that he had from most people in our tribe. And some people were being really ugly to him. About it. And I did not appreciate how ugly people were.
I, I agreed with the theological stance of those that were against him. I did not agree ales logically with what he was doing, but I know him to be a brother in Christ that, and I love him. And so I took him to lunch just to [00:13:00] encourage him. And here's what he said to me though. He said, Obviously it's working.
Whatever I'm doing is working. Look at how many people are coming to the church and I said, Listen, you gotta be really careful with that on the ecclesiological difference that people are coming at you about. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna debate you on that because it's a secondary, tertiary issue and I don't think we need to be making a huge deal about it.
But what you just said is a primary issue. We cannot just evaluate how well we're doing based on how many people are coming. That's a very dangerous way to evaluate your ministry.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. Can we flip side this for a second?
so I was just in a consultation, with the church that is declining and they're talking about a partnership with another church. And the church that's declining. men, they're, all older. They all commute in. They realize that they don't have any kids, that they're not reaching the neighborhood, et cetera, etcetera.
They realize in principle, big picture what they're doing is not working [00:14:00] in the terms of fulfilling their. So they've began to try, They're trying to evaluate what do we need to do? Well, one of the focal points for them is their worship, right? Their worship style. And it is, it's probably the best of the early eighties in terms of like how they're, how they approach it.
It's, you know, it. Songs, it's this kind of, you know, you take three songs and you blend them together, You segue one from another and it's, you know, music worship pastor waving his arms, you know, kind of leading the music and all that kind of stuff. And there's a tension because the, the congregation loves that and doesn't want to lose that.
And they don't like anything that's like, they don't like fresh and new and they don't want you. What they call rock and roll worship and that kind of thing. So if we're having a discussion with the declining church, how do we vet take that cuz this is a real, this is a real thing that re planters and revitalize will [00:15:00] deal with the music stone worship.
Walk me through. Thinking through, how do we process that dis decision, not just pragmatically by saying, We've gotta change the style because people will come in because you know that, or the reason people aren't coming in is because of the style. H how do we start there and how do we move towards a theologically, principled, pragmatic discussion with that issue?
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I would say it's the, the idea of still doing music from the early eighties or late eighties is you're still making that decision on pragmatism and, and from two, from two angles. One pragmatically, it worked in the late eighties, right? So pragmatically that was the style. It worked back in the late eighties, but also pragmatically.
it, it hits my preferences, it hits the way I want to do things. And both of those are the wrong way [00:16:00] to approach this cuz here's what I'd say is because. If you think only pragmatism, here's the mistake I think you could make. You could say, Well, this is the style of music that was popular and worked in the late eighties, and so let's figure out what the style of music is popular and works right now is.
And then you go find the top the billboard charts of worship music. Well, that may or may not lead you to some theologically sound music. And, and so I don't think that's, that's a too pragmatic of an approach as well. I think a theologically principled, pragmatic approach would be to say, what is the purpose of our time on Sunday morning when we're singing songs?
Why are we doing it? What, what are we trying to accomplish? Are we, are we on the right track? So not what's gonna get us to where we need to be the quickest, but when you identify. The reason why are we doing it the way we're doing it? Well, we're doing it cuz it worked in the late eighties and it's cuz the music I like, well, I think we then have to theologically understand, well that's, [00:17:00]Gospel orientation.
So gospel orientation says, one, I need to make sure we are theologically, clearly proclaiming the word of God, the truths of God through music in a way that ex exhausts the glory of God. And as a Colossians three 16, sing truth to one another and, and so that we're edifying one another through music in a way that is not, unnecessarily obtrusive.
To the generation below us. I'm not of the camp to say that you have to do super modern music. Man, I've been to churches that, I mean, I was at, I was at the Church of Tony Marina Pastors in North Carolina, a couple Sundays ago, and it was not like wildly popular new music, but. I mean, some of it was pretty old, but it was done in a way that really any generation could sing along with it.
It was theologically rich and pointed people to Jesus, and, and so it's really checking your motives [00:18:00] and why are, why are we trying to do it? And getting to the quickest results is not the right answer in getting to our preferences is not the right answer.
Bob Bickford: Right, and I, I think you outline the fact that, it's quick, it's easy for us to make a quick decision or quick, quick statement. About how we feel about it or people feel about it, that puts us at the center of worship, right? I like it. I don't like it. And that's not what worship is about. Worship is about drawing people into an environment, through music, through leadership that causes them to think about who God is, to give praise to him for who he is and for what he's done, and to understand who he is and who we are in response and in lie to the gospel.
And so that's the bigger question is, does, does your style or does your worship do that? Whether it's 80 style or whether it's, you know, a modern style. And, and so I think that's the question. So I [00:19:00] think if a guys are out there and they're doing the music battle, that's the question to ask is like, how does, what is the goal of worship?
Who is it for? And are we facilitating according to the scripture? What needs to happen in worship service of giving praise to God and honoring him for who he is in proclaiming the gospel. And I think most of most of us would be able to, to grid that out and answer that despite the style,
whatever the style is.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, we did a good episode, with, Nathan. I reawaken hims about that, and I'd recommend going back to, it was a really good conversation on multigenerational worship. And here's the deal though, man. Here's what Hamilton says. Sometimes doing the right thing, doing what God says. Doesn't immediately lead to success.
Sometimes doing the right thing leads to suffering or pain or more problems. And this is the opposite of pragmatism. but even when the right thing doesn't seem to work, it's still the right thing, and that's one of the things we have to [00:20:00] understand. Theologically, principled pragmatism. One may not seem to be working at first and two.
May not really work in the way that we are hoping it's gonna work, but doing the right thing is the right thing. Always Hamilton goes on to say, doing what God says does actually work. It just might not seem like it does it first. Often when we do the right thing, we discover much later that it was far more successful than we.
Ever could have imagined. It makes me think of the old, I don't listen to a lot of country music, but I grew up where some people did, and I remember the old country song, Old to me, thank God for unanswered prayers. man, I can tell you, Bob, there were plans I had that I'm really glad they didn't work out , that God took it a different direction and it, he had way better plans than.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. Most of us could say that. you know, Thinking through the hard decisions and the, and making the hard [00:21:00] decisions that are the right decisions and experiencing the consequences of those decisions. Our view of the impact or the consequences of those decisions in the short run is what really creates tension for us and makes us feel like this is not this.
Did I make the right call here? And I think of, honestly, Jimbo makes me think about some church discipline. conversations that I had where it was like, well, if, we don't address this, then we won't offend anybody and nobody will get mad and nobody will leave. Right.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: So that was a, that was part of the discussion.
The other side was, if we don't address this, then this, this sinful behavior perpetuates and it has an impact on the body, which means that we may keep some people, but we're not gonna be spiritually healthy. Right. Therefore, we need to have this conversation because it's a biblical matter. It's a, this is a, this is a sinful behavior.
This is creating division in the body. This must be [00:22:00] addressed. And our constitution and bylaws say that we have a, a model and a method for addressing this. And so we must act on that. And in the short term, Jimbo, when we did that at our replant in the early days, we saw the loss of quite a few folks.
Because people were related to the individuals where we had to, you know, we had to address some things with, But in the long term, Jimbo, it turned into a really good thing because even after, and even out, even the meeting where we announced before the church what had taken place and what had happened, we, we were all heartbroken, but we had hun, we had countless people that came up to us and said, That should have been done a long time.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah.
Bob Bickford: that was the right decision. And so it was from that point on our church, our church really started the culture and the spiritual condition where our church started changing. And so, Ben, I just encourage you, lean into this one. Doing the right thing, the biblical thing, the thing that God calls you to do is not gonna be easy sometimes.
most oftentimes it's not gonna be easy, but [00:23:00] it, may have some consequences in the short run that you, that others think are detrimental, but long term play the long.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, if you're so using the visionary operator processor synergist paradigm that we use often if you're on the visionary operator side of things, the more proactive side of things, then pragmatism is gonna lead you towards productivity. But if you're on the processor synergist side of things, then pragmatism is gonna lead you towards not shaking the apple cart, trying to keep everybody okay trying to, To not upset anybody and not let anybody leave. Both of those are not a great approach. You don't, So pragmatism Hamilton would say means that we make decisions based on what we think will work. Now, I would say that either means you think it'll work and that it'll be productive, or you think that it'll work and that it won't mess everything up and get, make people mad.
So we make decisions based on what we think will work, even though we don't know really enough to predict how it's gonna actually turn out. We, we are not. We, we cannot see the [00:24:00] future, and so we don't really know. So when you, when you're based on pragmatics, you may think this is gonna be productive and it may blow up in your face, or you may think, Well, this is gonna keep everybody happy, and it might either blow up in your face or it might, uh, just halt progress completely.
So what he would say is theological pragmatism or theologically principled pragmatism means that we make decisions guided by the one who who does know what works and how it will turn out. I mean, this is gospel orientation. This is submitting everything we do to what the Lord has for us. I wanna give you one more quote, Bob, and then I wanna hear your last thoughts.
So the last quote I wanna bring from you from the chapter is Hamilton says, Unprincipled pragmatism doesn't. But theological pragmatism. A pragmatism constrained by theological convictions does work in the real world, even if it doesn't at first appear to be working as we expect or [00:25:00] want it to.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I, I think I would encourage our guys who. in a situation right now where they're having to make some key decisions and leadership calls, and root yourself in scripture and prayer and give yourself some time and space to deliberate about the decisions you're needing to make and avoid the mistake of simply making the quick decision to have a short term impact or to to delay or to, To say no to a decision because of the short term impact and have the long game in mind and think.
What is the Lord calling your church to do? What is he called it to do in the word? What is he called your church to do and you as pastor to do? What is it clear in the word? And then what is he specifically calling you to do to apply his word in that local context? Do those things, wrestle with that.
It's not gonna mean you're gonna make fast decisions likely, but you're probably gonna make better decisions and the [00:26:00] best ones. And then I think the quote that he had before, it's like you make a decision and you trust God to work it out, right? And. I've been in the space where I made a decision and made a call and I had a couple people tell me that was the worst decision you could have ever made, and that was the wrong decision.
And I was firmly convinced that the Lord had let us down that course, and that's what he called us to do. And it ended up being that that was the case, but the Lord had to make it so he had to be my defender. He had to be the one to show in the long term that that's really what he wanted us to.
JimBo Stewart: Mm, That's a good word. Hey, one of the things we're excited to tell you by the time this comes out, we're recording a few weeks in advance right now, and we have been assembling a Replant Bootcamp blog writing team, and, So we're super excited that by the time this podcast comes out, we will have some blogs rolling out.
Some of them are gonna be based, most of them are gonna be based on episodes that we're doing. And [00:27:00] so be on a lookout. I don't know what the web address will be. It'll be on replant bootcamp.com. You'll be able to click blog and you'll be able to find it there. and let us know any other way that we can serve you.
Hey Bootcampers welcome back! Just a reminder that we'd love to see you in Louisville at the Am I a Replanter? October 27-28, 2022. You can register online here
Let's get to it, we'll start by defining pragmatism.
Hamilton says that what he means by “pragmatic is assessing a plan or belief in terms of its practical success. Pragmatism is a way of assessing problems and situations based on their immediate practical consequences rather than on abstract or ideological concerns. In other words, what’s right works.”
Before you toss out pragmatism understand that in it, there's both good and bad. The challenging part of buying totally into pragmatism is that it may work in the short run-but often it doesn't pay off in the long run. Most of the time, if you buy into an overly pragmatic decision-making style you'll begin to experience unintended consequences.
Sit back, lean in, and listen to some of the helpful wisdom in this EP.
If you're looking for help for your website, get with our great sponsor, One Eighty Digital. They can help you develop your web presence in a way that communicates who you are to the community in which your church is located.
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp, Bob. I hope you're ready for the next episode. Joining me we're live both actually in person in our houses, and excited. But when this comes out, we're recording a couple weeks early. We will been traveling some more. And man, it's just a joy to get to serve in this field with you.
Bob Bickford: Man, it's a blast. We, we, um, we've actually seen each other a couple times recently, the, the summit, that we held in Alpharetta, cuz we work for Nam and we were at the summit and and then we, we got the chance to get together with some replant leaders in Louisville and that was a blast. And
JimBo Stewart: Hey, we're gonna be back in Louisville at the end of October. Look, if you are new or interested, if you consider yourself like a brand new rookie novice, or you are considering replanting revitalization, you're a resident somewhere. You're a seminary student. man, you should really consider coming to hang out with us in Louisville.
At the end of October for the am I a re planter [00:01:00] conference, October 28th, 29th. We'll be there. Our wives will be there. Uh, Brian Croft will be there hanging out with us. And it's, it's a noon to noon Friday, Saturday time to hang out and learn more about replanting and revitalization.
Bob Bickford: Hosted by our good friends. The Southern Baptist, theological seminary there in Louisville and beautiful campus, amazing facilities. And so it's a great time. And I would say even Jimbo, those guys who are revitalizing a church, it might be helpful for them as well. Like they, they think cuz there is some overlap between a characteristic, the character, I, I must have lost my ability to speak there for a second.
Duo there are some overlaps between revitalizes and replant. Similar characteristics is what I was trying to say.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah,
Bob Bickford: So I think helpful. It'd be helpful to the guys.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think it, it, I mean, if you're new to the world of revitalization of replanting, this will be a [00:02:00] beneficial time for you. And we'd love to hang out with you. And it's only like 15 bucks a person. You can stay on campus. We're gonna feed you. It's gonna be a good time. Hey Bob, there's a book.
I have started reading on the recommendation of our buddy. Triple H happy huggy. Hallock has recommended a book to me called wisdom in leader. By Craig Hamilton, it's out of Matthias media, the same publishing house that put out the trellis and the vine. and so if you know, the trellis and the vine, and kind of the philosophy of ministry behind the trellis and the vine, it's a similar philosophy of ministry, but really focused on the leadership part of it.
And at the heart of the book, at least from what I've read so far, it it's really trying to walk. That tight rope of not being overly pragmatic results, oriented leadership, based just learning leadership stuff and [00:03:00] what he calls hyper, practical, hyper Calvinist. Like if you're you you're, you lean so much and hide behind the sovereignty of God that you don't actually do the part of the hardworking farmer that you're supposed to do.
and really a lot of it comes down. If you think about what people, the word people use in a pejorative negative sense towards people, that go too far, the leadership side of things, they'll say they're overly pragmatic, right? Everything's about pragmatics. He's got a great chapter in this book, called pragmatism doesn't work in practice.
And, I, I wanna take today and probably next week as well, and, and take that chapter out of that book. And let's talk about it.
Bob Bickford: I love this idea, you know, Jimbo, I grew up, uh, in ministry, early days of ministry in the Willow Creek leadership summit days, and then the Andy Stanley drive conference days. And so. [00:04:00] Huge huge, insights and impact in my thinking. And. Understanding of ministry, but I will say that, that, that was one of the criticisms that was leveled at both of those conferences, that it was high pragmatism, not much theology.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: I don't, you know, in some ways that might have been a fair criticism, not always depending on the speaker in the session, but I think there is a backlash between, those who wanna focus on just Pragma pragmatism and what works. And then those who are. Hyper theological. And there's gotta be some understanding of both sides of it.
And I think what we're gonna get to in these next two podcasts is understanding the differences between the two and perhaps the middle ground that we need to, to live in.
JimBo Stewart: So Hamilton says when it comes to ministry in leadership, kind of one of the main questions in this field of it that we wrestle with is what does being successful and effective look like and how do we know when we're doing it? And so [00:05:00] the, the charge, like you said, against ministry leadership books, uh, is that they offer just pragmatic answers.
So Hamilton in chapter nine says that when he says pragmatic. So just to define terms here, uh, he says, when he says pragmatic for this sake, he means pragmatic is assessing a plan or belief in terms of its practical success. Pragmatism is a way of assessing problems and situations based on their immediate.
Practical consequences rather than on abstract or ideological concerns. In other words, what's right. Works. Uh, and so to just to say that in our own words, I think he's saying that when we say pragmatism pragmatism, it steps out of ideology in theology. And one of the main concerns and focuses there is really like.
Immediately get us, get us to results as quickly as possible. This kind of immediate concern [00:06:00]for getting to results. That's pragmatism.
Bob Bickford: I think most of us have felt that pressure to do what works to help a church turn around and be healthy again. And oftentimes what's marketed to us are quick solutions. And things that will impact, perhaps let's say they impact the culture for a short season and a short cycle. Maybe they impact some of the superficial elements of what we're doing.
All those are good. They can be good. But what we're really talking about in replanting, a church and revitalizing a church is really getting at the core issues that are heart issues and spiritual issues. Cuz one of the things we always say when we're out in the field is that church decline is first and foremost, a spiritual.
JimBo Stewart: Hmm.
Bob Bickford: It's not a pragmatic problem, right? If we were able to throw strategies and practices at it, we would've solved it a long time ago and Jimbo you and I would not be on a podcast. We'd be sitting on the beach somewhere with our feet in the sand. Of course you might be doing that this afternoon since you live in Florida.
Not me here in Missouri.
JimBo Stewart: Well, [00:07:00] you know, it is a, it is a cool fall day in Florida. It's actually below 80 degrees today. So I'm, uh, I'm enjoying the nice, cool weather at 78 degrees today.
Bob Bickford: That's good.
JimBo Stewart: So it's not that pragmatic thinking is entirely bad. And so I, If we swing the pendulum too far, the other direction, and B what, he would call functional hyper Calvinist.
we swing it so far that we think, well, we can't think pragmatically about things at all. And here's what I'd say is you think you do think pragmatically about things, right? So when you go to the grocery store, Do you, Bob, do you look at the lines and try to decide based on how much is in a grocery cart, how many people are in the line and the, temperament of the person holding the grocery cart and you try to calculate which line should I get in?
That's gonna be the quickest route. Do you do that?
Bob Bickford: Jimbo I do, but I go to self check. Now, and I do make the same evaluation and before self checkout, I always would watch the checkers to [00:08:00] see are they slow? Are they fast? Do they talk a lot? Am I gonna have to say a lot of things here? Or can I just stick my card in the card reader and then move on?
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah. Or when you pull up to a red light, do you look at the lines, the make of the cars, those sorts of things. And you try to decide which, which line's gonna get me away from this red light as fast as possible.
Bob Bickford: I think who can I punch it and beat ahead of the, intersection. That's what I think.
JimBo Stewart: So there, all of us have areas of our life like this, where we naturally think in pragmatic ways. And so it's not that pragmatic thinking is entirely bad. Of course, we wanna do things that work Hamilton says one of the somewhat ironic problems with a pragmatic approach to Christian ministry. However, is that, although it sounds good in theory.
It doesn't actually work in practice. and part of the reason it doesn't work in practice is that thing of, the focus on the immediate results. Right? So immediate is the problem word here. It doesn't work. Cuz [00:09:00] pragmatic thinking is focused just on immediate practical consequences. It's too shortsighted.
Bob. We all know that God often plays kind of the long, the long road play. Like he he's gonna play the long game. Most of the time, especially in replanting in revitalization, we are playing the long game.
Bob Bickford: Absolutely just, here's a principle in life. That's important to learn. Sanctification and maturity are not quick.
Right.
JimBo Stewart: Whew.
Bob Bickford: They just are not why. Well, because our hearts are sinful, our patterns become ingrained. Why did the , you know, God could have pragmatically revealed to the children of Israel, as they were wondering in the desert, like on day one, he could have like, you know, here's, what's gonna happen over here's your choice.
Let me give you the cliff notes of the 40 years, or let me give you the 40 years. He'd already given them the promise that he would be their God and that he would walk with them and they would inherit land. But what did they do? They were rebellious. Right. And they were stubborn [00:10:00] and they were sinful. And what was it that it took?
What did it take to, to get them beyond that? Well, it took 40 years of hardship. Now. I hope that most replants don't have to endure 40 years of hardship. I doubt that they
do
JimBo Stewart: do though.
Bob Bickford: some of 'em do right. However, you just have to understand. That maturity is the result of a process. And it's oftentimes the result of pain in that process.
And so pragmatism can snap an organization, even a church in the right direction quickly, but it may not address it with the under address, the underlying issues that are causing a church to remain in decline.
JimBo Stewart: Well, one of the things Hamilton points out with that is he says, sometimes things don't look promising on paper or to begin with, but they work out well in the long run, right? I mean, so discipling, discipling people, leadership development, through scripture, those are slow, slow processes. When you're working in low income communities, like I have worked in primarily man, you bring a new believer into that and [00:11:00] discipling them into sacrificial giving.
and then knowing that they're giving, because you're in a low income, low income area is gonna even, even when you do finally get them to that point of discipleship that they start giving their giving is gonna be lower than it's gonna be in a lot of other places. So financial sustainability for a, for a replant in a low income community is a much slower process.
and, if the flip side of that, if you're in a over churched culture and you have people who have been going to church their entire lives, but have not had deep relationships with Jesus, and you're trying to disciple them out of a religion only focus and, and into a deeper relationship with Jesus and what that means to care more about.
Bringing glory to God and sharing the gospel and having my own preferences met. I mean, that's a slow long process. and most of the best solutions in church revitalization are pretty slow.
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm , that's why I say it takes about five to seven years to see congregation turn around. And so replant [00:12:00] or revitalize if you're, if you're looking for a two to three year. You know, turnaround, you probably need to readjust your expectations and you really need to go in. And we say this all the time, especially at the re planter events, we say, man, be ready to commit for five to seven years.
And you commit for that long haul. A couple of, first of all, you're first year, you guys are just getting to know each other year two. You're probably making some mistakes based on some of your evaluations. You're learning, you're growing as a leader. there, you know, there are all kinds of dynamics that take place in this first couple years, but about year five.
On through to year seven, hopefully, and beyond you start to see some, some really great things happen.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. So, one of the other things Hamilton says here is what appears to be effective at first glance may reveal itself to be ineffective. Once you get up close and look under the hood, we've talked about this, even when it comes to things like, installing elders, or deacons. man, you start to feel kind of an urgent need, man.
I, I need some help. And so there's a big temptation. If you believe in a plurality of leadership like elders, uh, or if [00:13:00] not, whatever it is, your council, your team, or your deacons, even. And you start to see man, I'm, I'm, I'm really kind of all alone here. And you, you jump the gun. I've seen guys jump the gun.
I have personally jumped the gun on installing elders. I've seen guys jump the gun on that. I've seen guys jump the gun on, in some churches that are dying, but they have a nice little, bank account, cuz a couple people left their inheritance there. And so they have a few hundred grand sitting in the bank and so they think, oh, if I'll just hire a buddy, then that'll fix it real quick.
sometimes it's just a, it's a jump to get a quick fix. And man, I don't know about you Bob. The more I, I feel like the more, not just even in, in ministry, but in my own spiritual walk, I feel like the longer I do this, the more I realize there just aren't any real shortcuts.
Bob Bickford: Now, if you continually jump the gun, you might want to grab a gun Jimbo.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah. And, and that's the thing, man. The other piece of this is step one, in this, [00:14:00] you cannot over emphasize, Immediate results. And you cannot under emphasize what you can accomplish in five years. What's the saying that people say like, don't overestimate, what you can do in, in one year.
And don't underestimate what you can do in five years.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I think it's something like that. CRO the Croft, has said that I've heard him say that a couple of times, but I think that the simple point is we are ambitious. And, enthusiastic in the short run. And then that gets squashed out of us. And then we realize this is a marathon, not a sprint. And, and so I think.
The the other thing too. And we, we talked about this in, in one of our episodes. Jimo it's like the first hundred days episode, maybe where you said, mistakenly to Audrey, like I'll see you in a hundred days or whatever it was. Right. And you had a, you had an action plan. You probably had a lot of great things on paper.
You started implementing them. I spent, some of them were really good, but some of them never took off. Same thing with us. Like we just, you know, all of the goals and desires, we. right [00:15:00] in the first year, and then the pressure in the first year that we feel. And, and I'll say this jumbo, the reality is that a re planter and revitalizer often pastors and leads the church.
He would not want to attend.
JimBo Stewart: mm-hmm
Bob Bickford: the pressure of trying to create a church that he would want to attend will drive him to do things at a pace. That's probably not appropriate it.
JimBo Stewart: yeah.
Bob Bickford: If he could tap the breaks on that a little while and realize, Hey, it's gonna be three to five years before we're really super pumped about attending this church.
Like it, it has all, you know, all of the dreams and visions and all that good stuff. And, and honestly, Jimmo some of those things aren't are your vision for the church and they're not God's vision for the church. So you've gotta be real. You gotta be real clear on that. And then, and I think you got over time, you, you.
You learn what God's vision is for the church, because it unfolds before you.
Right.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. I mean, honestly, part of what we're really talking about here is tactical [00:16:00] patients, right?
And so in our 13 characteristics, we talk about tactical patients is the ability to skillfully implement change at a pace that is appropriate to a specific congregation's health and needs. It's about having the discernment of knowing when something must be changed and how it should be changed.
And so we have to understand and, and operate in that kind of tactical patience. And man, here's the deal. Not only is there this need for tactical patients, and we gotta understand that God often plays the long game and he's called us to play the long game. One of the other dangers here, cuz there still can be a temptation to go.
Yeah, but I gotta get some things moving, man. I gotta make something happen. here's the issue that you've gotta consider. You have to consider this. If you are an action oriented person, like you and I, and you, patience is not easy, then you're, you're gonna jump so far so quick without thinking about it because you can make immediate results happen.
But what you haven't considered is unintended consequences.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. The [00:17:00] negative consequences perhaps of those early changes that seem like really minor things to you, but major things to the people that have been part of that church for a long time, then your leadership's undermined and that's an unintended consequence from changing one simple thing.
Right. I think the pressure is, is there and it drives us. I, I remember I was going, when we went to the very first Sunday, we went to Sherwood Baptist church, envy of a call. We literally sang the song. This is the day the vacation Bible school song. You know, this is the day that the Lord asked me, my wife, who's extremely patient leans over to me and whispers in my.
This is going to have to change she said to that day one, I was like, okay, okay. We gotta change the worship. We gotta change. So, you know, I felt that pressure day one, but whatever it is that drives you to make a quick decision, just know that every decision has consequences. Some of
those might be
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Yeah. Hamilton says the law of unintended [00:18:00] consequences is the idea that when you start with a complicated system, one that you don't completely understand and you mess with it and make changes to it. You often end up with some outcomes that you didn't anticipate or intend. Sometimes these can be good.
But often they're bad. And here's what he says. Look, if you mix in factors such as the law of unintended consequences and this kind of pure pragmatism really begins to unravel, not only does God play the long game, but part of how he plays the long game is he, he sees the, the consequences down the road of the actions you're making today.
We can't see that we don't know. And so. You start spending all your leadership capital on things that really don't matter as much as they need to. And you start moving too quick and you start seeing people's obstacles sometimes rather than people you've been called to disciple man long term, there's gonna be consequences to your health.
There's gonna be consequences to the health of the church. There's gonna be consequences to your family. and so be weary of having this pure, [00:19:00] pragmatic approach to immediate results.
Bob Bickford: Mean, I, this is causing me to think there's probably a whole nother podcast on decision making that we could have that says, if I make this decision, what are all the possible. Consequences intended or unintended. And just thinking about that Jimbo, like I I'm, in my mind, I'm getting paralyzed, cuz I'm thinking, do I need to do this for every decision that I make?
Why and everything that I say. Right. So I think intuitively there's a leadership skill that we developed that says, well, I probably shouldn't say that. Right. Or, you know, I do need to say this. Here's the way I need to present this. Right? So we kind of get some savvy in there, but I think if we're starting out and particularly the environment is a little, tenuous, we, we probably need to have a process where we think through that.
And so maybe we should devote some time in the future to talking about decision making and intended and UN unintended consequences.
JimBo Stewart: [00:20:00] Yeah. I mean, part of it, man, going back to my favorite book, Proverbs, Proverbs 14, 12, and Proverbs 16, 25 both to say the same thing. there's a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death. man, you gotta, you gotta consider that. Your intuition is probably not as good as you think it
is. especially if you're a high visionary on the visionary operator processor that we've talked about or you're more visionary than shepherd, man. Then you think, you think that your intuition is always golden and man, look, there's a way that seems right to you. You're, there's a, there's an intuitive way for immediate results.
That just seems right. but man, we are called to submit everything that we do under the.
Bob Bickford: Yes. Hi, I'm just laughing because. It makes me think of, super high visionaries that I've been around. And, high visionary often scares people because they're also a verbal processor, right? They're just, just throwing stuff. Like we could do this, we could do that. And, and man, you walk into a church that hasn't changed the carpet since 1978.
And you start, I [00:21:00] ideating you start vision casting. People are gonna lose it. right.
So for our high, high visionary guys out. and there's a tension between, being the guy that never casts vision for what God could do or being the visionary that CA casts vision for everything you're going to do.
Right.
JimBo Stewart: Hm.
Bob Bickford: So you go in there and you say, well, here's all the things we're gonna change. And, and I think I've seen guys do this. They go in. Their view on surface things or things that won't impact the spiritual condition of the church. Right. And it's easy to change those things and it's easy to cast vision for those things.
and it's easy for people to say no to them, but what you really wanna see, I think, as, as a leader, and what's important is you really wanna get to the place where you're casting vision for the right things that will help the church grow in its maturity and fulfill its mission that God has called it to.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. So I wanna set up for next week. So we've established, the pragmatism in of itself [00:22:00] does not work by itself, but that thinking through how things can work best is not necessarily, a bad thing to do. Having some pragmatic level of your thinking is not entirely best, not bad to think through how do we do things that work, but here here's what Hamilton says.
There's really two things. When we're having this conversation, we need to make sure that we know. One, we need to know what does success look like in the first. How do we know if what we're doing is working that's one. So we gotta really define what, what does winning mean? What does that look like? and then two, what guidepost can we set up before we start to, before we start to help us evaluate whether something will, will work or not.
And here's what he says, this is, this is the quote I'm gonna use to set up next week's episode. So you're gonna need to tune back in. He says, we need some principles that will help us assess what will work and work long term to achieve exactly what we're seeking to achieve. What we need is principled pragmatism.
And then he's gonna [00:23:00] go on to argue that even more as Christian leaders, what we need is theologically, principled, principled, pragmatism. So in other words, we're gonna think through, we're gonna talk about this next week. We're gonna think through how do we think about what works. But through the guidepost of long term, submitting it to the Lord with theological guidepost.
Well Bootcampers it's our third birthday! In celebration we've decided to grow up a little and add some volunteers to our team! We're looking to add some content/blog writers who can take our content and turn it into helpful articles for our audience. If that's you contact us on Facebook, email or voice mail.
In this EP we're gonna talk about why it is important to always be learning and continuing your education. Life long learning is not an option in our opinion, we should all be seeking to grow and develop throughout our life. Here are some the highlights.
Why should we commit to continuing education? * Because we are never done learning. * We should hope to be characterized by 2 Thessalonians 1:3 + We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing. * To prevent spiritual atrophy + “The stiff and wooden quality about our religious lives is a result of our lack of holy desire. Complacency is a deadly foe of all spiritual growth. Acute desire must be present or there will be no manifestation of Christ to His people. - A.W. Tozer * We all naturally drift toward leaning on our own understanding + Proverbs 3:5 – Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding
Ways to continue your education * Seminary-Audit classes * Take Online classes * Sign up for Learning Cohorts + Calvary Family of Churches, Practical Shepherding, Small Church Academy
Learn how your website can connect with your community from our great sponsor, One Eighty Digital. They the experience and skills to get your web presence up to speed. Tell them you are a Bootcamp listener.
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp, Bob. I hope you're ready for the next episode. It is birthday week for the bootcamp. Uh, I believe we are three years old now.
Bob Bickford: Man. That's incredible. Do, do you think we act like a three year old or do we act like, a little more mature than that?
JimBo Stewart: We're starting to learn how to walk pretty well and, on our own. And we're, we're growing. I think at, at moments we're probably more mature than a three year old and at moments it's, it's probably the appropriate age.
Bob Bickford: And that's what keeps it fun. We, you know, we wanna provide you some serious content, some things that challenge you stretch, you help you grow. We want you to laugh a little bit along the way and just enjoy listening to us. So, you know, we're, we're gonna throw out food recommendations, hot sports opinions, and just let me, speaking of sports, Jimbo, I want to issue my condolences to the Dallas Cowboys.
Their season is officially over. They had one game and they didn't score a touchdown. They're the only NFL team that did not score [00:01:00] a touchdown. So The starting quarterback is injured. So I'm calling it. You heard, you heard it right here. The Dallas Cowboys are done for the year.
JimBo Stewart: Done for the year they are a, a losing team. Hey, for the birthday week, I, I wanna invite someone to join a winning team. The replant bootcamp team, guys, listen up. This is your opportunity to officially join. Join the replant bootcamp team team. As we have it three years old, we've decided it's time to learn how to read and write.
And we, we , we wanna add, a blog format to what we provide as we're thinking about increasing our resourcing. and let me be clear when I say increasing our resourcing, what I'm proposing is an entirely unpaid position. and so we're looking for volunteer blog writers that would be interested in.
Joining our efforts, taking the content of podcast episodes and reformatting them, as blogs for [00:02:00] different learning styles. Because some people like myself prefer to learn by listening to things. And then some people prefer to learn by reading things, and we want to be able to provide great resources for those that prefer to learn by reading blog.
Bob Bickford: I love that idea. we may give you, we may find an old replant bootcamp hat and send you that as compensation or, maybe Jimbo, you could rust up some good food and, uh, cook it up for, 'em put it in like a, a styrofoam box with dry ice and send it to 'em. They could thought out and.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. I mean, look, they can come up whatever they feel like needs to be their, their payment and we'll figure out a way to,
Bob Bickford: Well, hold, hold on. Their Santa Claus. I mean, you just opened the gate. What if, what if they want something significant, like a new Ford Bronco, like, you know, or
a
JimBo Stewart: well, then they're not, they're not replant bootcamp material.
Bob Bickford: okay. Right. Cause we're, sourceful generalists are what we are.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. So we need you to know how to do, more with almost [00:03:00] nothing. And if you
Bob Bickford: That's
JimBo Stewart: to do that, you're not a re planter.
Bob Bickford: that's first on the list, I think. Right. That's tell me what you've done with
almost nothing.
JimBo Stewart: yeah. Exactly. So if that's you, we would love to hear from you reach out to us, and you can, find our contact information on the website, or you can contact us on social media. And what we'd love is if you send us some links to maybe, or documents of some blog type things you've written, so that we can know that you know how to read and write better than a three year old, as we are only three, and we need someone else to help us with that.
Bob Bickford: Love it.
JimBo Stewart: Man, speaking of learning last week, we talked about the way that we can learn the importance of, and the way to learn from people that we don't necessarily agree with. And I think that is a valuable thing for us to be able to kind of even look outside of our camps and outside of our spheres of influence and echo chambers, and just hear and learn from other perspectives without letting them influence us in [00:04:00] a negative direction.
I wanna continue that conversation about education. I was in a room with some ministry leaders recently and, a guy who is a pastor and a ministry leader and a state convention, is also a licensed therapist. And here's what he said to me. And I thought, man, we need to talk about this. He said as a licensed therapist, he is required to do 20 hours of continuing education formally every year in order to maintain his license.
And so I started thinking about it and I looked it up here. Here's a few other vocations that requires. Some formal continuing education in order to stay in that vocation lawyers, teachers, accountants, engineers, pilots, physicians, nurses, psychologists, architects, pharmacists, and there's so many more. And here's what, here's what hit me.
Bob, part of the reason each of those vocations. Require formal, continuing education is [00:05:00]really in order to continue to do that job. Well, you have to continue to grow in your abilities in your knowledge. and for, for some of those, it's like for literally the safety of others, you need to con you need to stay sharp and know what you're doing, but we would all agree when it comes to being a pastor, especially I would say of a replant or a revitalization.
Man, we're dealing with things of eternal significance and kingdom things. And so I, I would say it's maybe even more important that we have a, a process and a habit of continuing our education.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I, I agree Jimbo. I, I think actually some denominations do in some conferences that I used to attend way, way back in the. I remember going to a national, the national pastor's conference in San Diego. And, they had seminars that you could take. And a lot of the, the guys that were at different denominations, they would, they would fill out information and get CPEs, [00:06:00]you know, continuing education credits that, so that sort of thing.
So I think in our denomination, it. It is not mandated and it is certainly, and I think what you're saying is, and I agree with you, it's important and you should desire it for the purpose of being effective and continuing to stay sharp in your vocation. Yeah, We're dealing with people in their lives and their spiritual health and their wellbeing and all those sorts of things.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, it definitely doesn't need to be mandated, but I think there are, I think mandating it is not a great idea personally, as far as like from a top down type mandating, but I think you should personally mandate it for yourself. And I, a couple reasons, I think one, obviously we're never done learning.
man, it's you can't get to the bottom of scripture and the wisdom that's in the Bible. I mean, it's just an, an bottomless ocean of wisdom and, and beauty. And so one we're just never done learning. We gotta keep doing that two. I would say we should hope to be characterized. I was looking at this and second [00:07:00] Pelon one, three made me think of it.
We ought, we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers as is right. Because your faith is growing abundantly and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing. So two things outta that passage that make, I think of one, their faith is growing abundantly. They, they are it's continuous growth in their faith and I would.
I would say, if you use scripture to interpret scripture, that includes growing in their knowledge of the Lord and of the word is how, part of how their faith is growing continually and abundantly. But then this is so important. The, that we, we not get so puffed up in knowledge, that we forget that this is about loving people and sharing the love of God with others.
So I love that this verse not only talks about that, but it also says and love of every one of you for one another. Is increasing so that we continue not only to grow in our knowledge and in our faith and our skills, but we, [00:08:00] we must maybe even more importantly, continue to grow in our love for one another.
Bob Bickford: I love this. I, think that growth. Is not guaranteed physical growth is guaranteed, right? And we're, we're gonna grow physically and we're gonna grow older. We're gonna, you know, grow more frail eventually and all those sorts of things. But one things I love is when I meet somebody who has a lot of laps around the calendar, but is just sharp.
And is just of keen mind and insight. And they're not just wise because they're chronologically old they're wise because they've sought to, to develop wisdom and grow all throughout their life. And through scripture, through reading widely through observation, you know, through conversations and being challenged.
So I love this idea of, of us being characterized by growing and not just in inform. But growing with information that transforms us and makes us become more like Christ and more valuable to, God's kingdom, not the Val the value resides in us, I'm saying, [00:09:00] but both the Lord's doing in us and allows us to move about and be of great use and great help at every season of life that we find
ourself at.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I've met senior adults later in life that are just joyful and life-giving and sharp. And part of, I mean, every time I've asked them and they just continue learning, they continue, pouring into their, their spiritual growth and they pursuing spiritual growth. and so it's man, it's, it's amazing to me.
One of the moments I saw this, and I think I've mentioned this even before. I remember being at a, an event where a, a guy in his early fifties was giving a lecture on longevity and ministry and a guy in his mid eighties that has planted like 12 churches and coached. Hundreds of pastors was sitting there diligently taking.
On this lecture about longevity in ministry. And I asked him afterwards, I said, I said, well, of anybody that could like, just tune out and skip this lecture on longevity in [00:10:00] ministry. It's you, I mean, you're in your mid eighties and you're still, I mean, rocking it. I mean, you're killing it. You could retire at this moment and you've done it.
You've done longevity in ministry and he said, man, I'm always learning. And I'm always. Trying to figure out how to grow as a person and how to grow in a way that I can help others grow more like Christ. And that was really inspirational to me. This guy was still that committed to personal growth that at 85 years old, he didn't check out of a lecture on longevity and ministry being given by somebody in their fifties.
Bob Bickford: great. Great. I, I'm not, I think there's something that I've experienced. That's akin to that. I was part of a group of pastors that gathered at a national event. and I was there with, with a group of pastors that were from some, some of the largest churches in the United States and in part. one of them was not only one of the largest, but was one of the most well known and we were each presenting.
And can I just tell you that's an intimidating. Kind of a experience when you and I was like maybe three months into my role at this particular church that I was a part of. [00:11:00] So I'm in the room presenting to guys that their church is like are 20,000. Right? So here we go. so I present. And then one of the coolest things, the guy who was like the lead guy from that delegation of pastors from that church came up and he goes, Hey, when you said this, I was really intrigued.
And I have a question about this. What are you learning about? Like, he's asking me and I've been three months on the job. I was so impressed. Here's a guy that could just basically lecture the entire time that we're there, hold the whole room. And we'd all be like writing notes and going, man, we're really learning a lot from this guy.
He's a really great guy. He was asking me about something and asking my perspective and trying to learn from me. And so what that just showed me is man Jimbo. We can learn from anybody regardless of their, their, where they serve the size of church they serve what their experience is. And I think this is really helpful, particularly.
When you are a, around a, a group of men at the association level, or maybe state convention level, you can learn from everybody doesn't matter what their, what their experience is or, or you're gonna learn [00:12:00] something. And so I would just say, develop the posture of a learner to be able to, to have a open mind and an open heart to learn from someone regardless of what their background is and what their experience is.
JimBo Stewart: And what their age is. I, I mean, I love the idea of learning from guys younger than you, whatever, you know, you need to, definitely everybody, I think easily goes to, I need to learn from guys older than me, and you definitely need to do that. probably primarily need to do that, but I think you also need to be hearing from, and learning from the perspectives and experiences of.
People younger than you, because they, they bring something else to the table. I think another reason is to prevent spiritual atrophy. As soon as we stop pursuing our own growth, it, we start to atrophy like a muscle unused. I was thinking there's a Tozer quote that says the stiff and wooden quality about our religious lives is a result of our lack of holy desire.
Complacency is a deadly foe of all spiritual growth, acute desire. Must be present [00:13:00] or there will be no manifestation of Christ to his people, man, you, get away from diligently studying God's word on a regular basis and you will start to lose that desire. You'll start to lose the holy desire to get deep into his word, to get deep into learning more about who he is, how he's wired you, how he's using you, and, even I just, I don't know.
I see this happen in people and it breaks my heart and it scares me cause I don't ever wanna do this. I just, I always think, man, I, I could do this. I've had seasons where I allowed myself to overbook my schedule. And so I phoned it in, on my quiet time, a few days in a row and I start to feel it pretty quick of the, all of a sudden I'm like, oh, I don't even wanna do my quiet time this morning.
And I'm like, why do, why do I. Wanna do that. And I, think it's because I've, I have let things atrophy at that point.
Bob Bickford: Yes. I would also not only complacency, I would add this and you alluded to it busyness,[00:14:00] busyness is, A challenge for us particularly, and I I'm thinking of the bivocational pastors or the tri vocational pastors right now, the re planters that are, you know, their world's on fire. They're fighting a battle on 55 fronts.
And the last thing they can think about is reading a book or doing some in depth study. Right. And they're, they're trying to survive to. Study the scriptures to preach on Sunday, maybe Sunday night, Wednesday night, leave the deacons meeting, you know, whatever. Right. They just feel like man, I'm I'm slammed.
So, what I would suggest is, you know, go back to, when we were talking about the Jordan Rainer stuff and managing your time and all those sorts of things, and then find ways to learn and, take in information. That's helpful to you. In ways that don't require you necessarily to, I mean, to just stop down, some guys just are not gonna be able to stop down and read a book, but they could listen to a book, right.
Or they could, they could listen to a YouTube lecture. They could listen to a podcast. They could listen to the, the audio from a conference, those sorts of things. And what I would say is [00:15:00] man, find those cracks in your schedule where you're doing kind of mindless things like driving and commuting or mowing the yard or.
You know, doing some yard work, stick your headphones in. And instead of listening to, you know, you two or van Haen or journey or Florida, Georgia line, nobody listens to Florida Georgia line anymore, but just threw that out there. man, listen to something that's gonna feed your soul in your mind, turn on your U version in your Bible and just listen to listen to the scriptures.
Right? Listen to the old Testament and feed your mind, feed your heart, feed your.
JimBo Stewart: Hmm. Yeah. I think one of the reasons we have to do that is we don't naturally drift towards holiness. We, we, naturally drift, like, there's just a natural pool towards. being considering ourselves. Self-sufficient I'll just do this in my own strength. I have encountered more than I. Care to discuss guys that I know and love that have disqualified themselves from ministry.
And [00:16:00] one of the things I do often when that happens is I'll ask to buy them a cup of coffee or lunch, and I'll tell them I wanna pray for you. I want you to know that I love you. I'm not judging you. I am for you. not for you in sense of taking sides over. And, and a debate, but I'm for you growing and, being where you need to be and doing what you need to do.
But I also wanna learn from you and one of the consistent things that seems to come up every time, cause I'll ask, I'll say I don't wanna know anything really about the details of the act that disqualified you, but really the, what were the behaviors and patterns that got you here, that you were to do?
Something like that and pretty consistently. They say some version of, I was doing ministry in my own strength in natural gifting. Right. I wasn't. And so, I mean, so Proverbs tells us, right, that that's leaning on our own understanding. and so part of why we need to be intentional about continuing our education is we all naturally drift towards leaning on our own [00:17:00] understanding.
Proverb says trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. And that's one of those that I think we quickly and easily kind of nod our head like yeah, of course. But man. And when it comes down to the nitty gritty of the daily task that you have, and your to-do list is 5,000 things long, and you, you you're battling on 45 different fronts, like you said, and it really, that's a hard time to trust in the Lord with all your heart.
It really is at that point. It's so, so much easier and more comfortable to go. Let me just plug away, get this to-do list done. And then when I get on the other side of this, I'll get back to pursuing my relationship with the Lord and trusting the Lord, man. You're never gonna get to the end of that. To do list well enough.
I mean, you're just not, you're not gonna get that's a lie from the pit of hell. You are not, you are not gonna get to the end of that. You're the devil is gonna use that to constantly bring you to a place that you'd lean on your own understanding. And [00:18:00] so part of the reason we gotta continue our education is because we naturally drift towards leaning on our own understanding and our natural gifting.
Bob Bickford: Yes, there, there is always more to do and there will always be something to, and this is why I think Sabbath is important. Jimbo, like to disconnect you from the routine so that you can have the opportunity to, Pray to reflect, to hear from God, but here's the challenge for pastors, right? They're working when other people are Sabbath thing,
so you've got a pastor have, have a day off and fight for a day off to do some mindless kinds of things and to, to, you know, rest your body by working your hands, rest your mind by working your hands, all those sorts of things. But you've also gotta renew your mind. And, so much of what we were dealing with.
And we, we were in, um, I was with a small group of pastors and we were talking about what we were praying about. And one guy said, I've just prayed about people and problems. Like that's, that's dominated my prayer life. Like,
yeah, man, that's exhausting. Right. And you gotta pray about that stuff. And you gotta think about it, but you also [00:19:00] gotta, you gotta refresh your mind and, and refresh your heart by thinking about God, but growing.
And being challenged personally, think about your own life, thinking about your ministry, not just working in it, but getting above it and working on it. So, man, I just wanna encourage some guys if you don't have a time where you just get away with a notebook and just kind of write and doodle and think about your life and get with the scriptures, man, that that's so vital and so important.
JimBo Stewart: Absolutely. So let's, let's land a plane with what are some ways, Bob, that guys listening, if they're thinking, man, I need to get better about continuing my education, continuing my growth. What are some ways that, that they could start thinking through that?
Bob Bickford: Man. I wanna talk about one of the most, some of the most accessible and no cost ones right
now. And so,
JimBo Stewart: All right.
Bob Bickford: good podcasts are accessible and don't cost you. And there are so many good podcasts. Conversely, there are so many not good podcasts. like not good [00:20:00] there too. Right. But man, get your library sorted out and then get your routine going.
And if you're a Walker and you walk by yourself like fire, 'em up like load 'em up. If you're a commuter load, 'em up. Listen. if you're, uh, working in the yard, loaded up and listen and, and I think cuz cuz guys are busy. Resources are, are meager, man. Just do what you can. That's a low cost. And here's the other thing too, is if you have, if you have access to a good library, like at a seminary or a Bible college, or even sometimes a public library will have some good popular, books or historic books that have been written by, credible authors who, who are writing about the spiritual life or leadership, those sorts of things mean, see if you can access those.
Those are no cost. Usually are they very low cost?
JimBo Stewart: I one of the ways that I've accessed just a ton of books, that are often very expensive books at the low cost is I pay a monthly fee to have a membership with SCR S C R I B d.com. And man is, there's a [00:21:00] huge array of eBooks on there. Huge that if you have the membership you have access to on a digital device, and I'm talking like very expensive commentary sets and things like, and commentary sets that you can't easily get on logouts or things like that.
So like NYCO and some of those, some of those that are really expensive, you can get 'em just with seven, eight bucks a month on script, and I think that's helpful. So, so I utilize some of those in, in depth Bible study. You can, I. If you're done with seminary, quote unquote, I mean, you can audit classes.
If you want to get more formal. There are online classes, galore. There's some free ones that are, are really good. there's I also want to point to some cohorts, some friends of ours do, mark Haack and Brian Croft in particular. if you're in South Carolina, then man, you gotta reach out to James Nugent.
In your state convention, they've got some really good cohorts there. I know in Virginia, they're doing some, the state conventions doing some cohorts, but, mark Hallick and Brian Croft and we'll link [00:22:00] the stuff to their cohorts and the show notes. But man, some of the stuff they have is just gold and we've seen guys really grow deep in community and deep in their.
Faith and deep in their skills in education and friendships. I mean, there's just, there's a lot of value in doing something like that.
Bob Bickford: Absolutely last one I'd throw in. There are conferences. Now those are little expensive sometimes because you have to travel to location. You have to have, you know, Time away. You have to have conference budget. You have to have a hotel, all those sorts of things, but maybe pick out one conference every other year that you would want to go to.
And for the re planters, what I would say is every year we do the replant summit in August. And we're gonna have some regional events around, uh, the country with, our role with the north American mission board for, replanting and reviving and refreshing and all those sorts of things. Men find those cuz those are usually pretty inexpensive to, to attend like 35 bucks I think is like our normal charge.
And sometimes there's hotel [00:23:00] rooms, particularly with the summit, but, man, go to a conference. Sometimes you can worship like the worship at a conference is awesome because you're not having to worry about, okay, am I next? Or is aunt Sue gonna remember to get up and do the announcements? And did you know what's gonna happen next?
And did the tech guy get the slides and you know, all this kind of stuff. And so you're really distracted during worship at. I've seen pastors just go to conferences purely because they're like, man, I can actually like really worship deeply at a conference and be renewed from that. And then they're, they're encouraged by the speakers.
So pick out the good conferences, the ones you can go to, if you can't go to 'em every year, see if you can go to 'em every other year and get, get your, uh, church to help you, get the cost, covered for, for yourself and for your.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, last one I would say is if you can man, get, get you a couple of pastor friends that, are in your area within driving distance and try to once a month get together. Talk to each other, iron sharp and iron, be there with each other. Hey, thanks for tuning in guys. Happy birthday to [00:24:00] the bootcamp at three years old.
If you wanna help us learn how to read and write and turn these wonderful podcast episodes into blog post, reach out to us through our website or on social media and let us know, uh, if you wanna join the replant boot camp team and help us deliver content to people in different learning style.
The bootcamp boys are back at it and this time talking about why it's important to listen to people you may not agree with. Sit back, dial in and consider how you might stay faithful to scripture, challenged and learn a few things from those with whom you might have differing views.
Listen to and learn from people you don’t 100% agree with
- You need to avoid living in an echo chamber – It will challenge your thinking
Learn how to eat the meat and spit out the bones
- You can’t truly teach against something you don’t really understand
Daniel Dennett’s advice on this (from his 2013 work Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking): “You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, ‘Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.”
By restating someone’s arguments accurately you can honor them and show them respect without affirming or agreeing with them. Then they might actually listen to and want to fully understand your perspective
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It will help you fall more in love with truth
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It will give you a deeper understanding of what you believe and why
Checkout our sponsor, One Eighty Digital for all your website and marketing needs. They can get you up and running in no time and reaching people who are in your community.
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp, Bob. I hope you're ready for the next episode. I just finished spending a couple good days with our good friend, happy huggy Hallock down here in Jacksonville, Florida. And here's what I tell you was exciting for me was, the last time he was here, I exposed him and we talked about it on the podcast, to BR pudding.
had bread, not only had he never had bread pudding, he had never heard of bread pudding. And that's when we discovered the issue. To one who has never heard of bread pudding, there's really no way to describe what bread pudding is and make it sound appetizing. Like if you describe the ingredients, it sounds less appetizing.
like in the process you say, okay, take some stale bread and you soak it in a custard and, and then you cook it and put some ice cream on it. And the only thing about that, that sounds advertising is the ice.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I would agree. The first time I ever heard about bread pudding, bread is a delivery. [00:01:00] Uh, device for me, Jimbo.
JimBo Stewart: Mm-hmm
Bob Bickford: there are some good breads that, like, I know we, we recently went to Papa do, of turning this into a food episode right from the start here, but hold on. Boot campers.
Papa do, for instance, we went there, the beginning of August and men had a nice crunch, crunchy bread. Is that a baguette? I guess maybe something like that. I don't, I don't know, but it was,
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. The baguettes, like the long slender, this real crisp. Yeah,
Bob Bickford: You want crunch? You want to crunch on the outside and you want soft on the inside. Right? So,
JimBo Stewart: that's correct. Yeah.
be able slap it. And there's a certain sound you're looking for when you slap it.
Bob Bickford: okay. All
JimBo Stewart: truth. That's how, you know, if a, if a French bag is good, that you can slap it. And there's a certain hollow sounding sound that you can get out of
Bob Bickford: Well, all right. There's so you learn something every day on the bootcamp, something in addition to replanting. And revitalization, but all that to say, I greet you. Bread bread for me is primarily a [00:02:00] delivery device. I just don't go seeking it out, going, just need some bread right now. Not me.
JimBo Stewart: Now I made do some homemade bread and brought it to you one time. What were your on the FHA bread and the haka rolls?
Bob Bickford: Yeah, it was really good. Um, and, and, uh, heated him up a little bit, put some butter on him and, and really enjoyed him. So I I'm grateful for, for you me some.
JimBo Stewart: There we go, well, look, not only should we be willing to explore foods we've never heard of, and that don't sound appetizing when someone we love and trust tells us that it's good, but. Halek asked for more this time. And he, he said, he for sure, wanted more bread pudding while he is here, but he wouldn't have experienced the joy of bread pudding.
Had he not been willing to do that? And Bob, I think this is what I want to talk about today. Not bread pudding, but how do you, or should you let's first answer the question? Should you be willing to listen, to and learn to people that you don't 100% agree? What are your thoughts?
Bob Bickford: [00:03:00] Everybody except for an Alabama football fan.
JimBo Stewart: Amen. I have a few, I have a few Alabama football fan friends. We even have some that listen to the bootcamp that I love because of the grace of Jesus Christ.
Bob Bickford: Yes, there you go. So, yeah, Jimbo, I, you know, joking on saying that I know we'll get some, uh, Bama haters on here since you're, you're an LSU fan and I'm a Razorback fan. So, uh, no hate from the, no hate intended to the Bama fans. But yeah, I mean, you, you've gotta be able to listen. For somebody, for truth, from a bunch of different sources the sense of what might be helpful.
I think there's levels of like practical truth, organizational truths, you know, theological truth. We obviously, we obviously wanna be more guarded in that. I don't think that's what we're talking about, but we're talking about, can you, if you right, can we listen to others understand one where they're coming from?
And then two is what they're saying? Does it have a point to it? and is it a valid.
JimBo Stewart: See, I would even say to a [00:04:00] degree we can listen to and learn from people who we don't agree with 100% even theologically. Right. I mean, outside of the Bible, I don't know that I've ever read anybody. I've agreed. 100% with theologically, you know, I, I love CS Lewis. I, I love the way he thinks I love the way CS Lewis writes.
but there are definitely some things about, scripture and Trinity that I, I don't agree. And I wouldn't use CS Lewis to teach and illustrate certain things because of ways that I disagree, but it doesn't mean that I can't still highly value something like mere Christianity and so much of that that is so rich and, and beautiful.
And so I, I mean, I. Always with your, always with the. Testing it through scripture. Right. And, always knowing that scripture is the filter and the guide. But I have sense. I don't know if you have Bob, but as I've had conversations with a lot of people, there seems to be a growing unwillingness to listen to, [00:05:00] or read people that are outside of like your camp.
Like people are more and more, it feels like putting themselves kind of in theological or even. Ecclesiological camps and then they kind of go, oh, well, and I can't, I can't listen to that guy cuz we disagree on this thing. Right. This, and so we, we kind of go, well, we can't, can't read that guy. Can't listen to that guy.
Cuz do you know what he believes about such and such? Well done? Can't learn from and I don't know. I think there's, I think there's something dangerous about that approach and I think there's something. Really important about being willing to learn from people and, and just having that skill of how do you learn from people that you don't 100% agree with?
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I think, so this, this reminds me of the episodes we did on leadership, judo. When somebody's coming at you with an idea or a thought or,
some kind of design You're trying to, to determine, [00:06:00] is this, are they trying to attack me or is this is harm gonna be harmful to me? Or can I, can I receive this and guide it to a place where, where I can not be damaged by it?
And maybe in the same way, there's, of a philosophical judo we need to be able to do to hear somebody's argument and get at the root of it. And I, I remember this reminds me of a, a seminary class that I had. With a professor named mark divine. And that's one of things he said is he, we've gotta be able to listen to others' ideas thoughts and perspectives in order to really understand not only what we believe, what we might also, we might need to respond.
know we've done some preliminary outline stuff, so I don't wanna jump ahead. So I'll let you unpack it.
But, uh, I, think one of the things, that's important is is you really until you can argue a position from another person's perspective that you disagree with, you might not fully understand their perspective.
Uh, and this is a hard one for me because. [00:07:00] I think a lot of us put our passion and our emotion behind our arguments, an argument in the right, in the, in stated in this way, an argument for something in favor of something, not just an argument that I were fighting over, who has the best. Chicken sandwich Popeye's are Chick-fil-A right.
You know but it's what are they saying? Yeah. Pop that's easy. Yeah. Popeye's what are they saying? And do I really understand it from all, all the facets? And could I even argue the merits of their point, even though I may not disagree. I may disagree with it.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think it's one of the reasons I love that my kids in the homeschool co-op that we participate in. They, they eventually have to learn Lincoln Douglas. and, uh, I did some of that in college. I was on the forensic team, some doing Lincoln Douglas debate. And I mean, it was one of the skills that we have to learn is how to be able to understand the oppositions argument.
And, I read a quote recently by a guy named Daniel Deni that said, [00:08:00] You should attempt to re-express your Target's position. So clearly vividly and fairly that your target says, thanks. I wish I thought of putting it that way. I mean, I mean, really, and I I've even heard, Tim Keller say that, you know, you should be able to understand the world, you know, other's perspectives on something that you can restate it almost better than they can, to where they hear that.
And they say, and they think, yeah, you have accurately represented what I believe really only at that point. Can you start to possibly one, make a, make a difference in their life and make an argument. and I don't mean argument, like you were saying, like in the volatile sense, but like a, a discussion, the other direction, but also I think this is what I've experienced when you restate someone's argument.
So accurately that they agree with it. And it's so important to be able to do that when you honor. [00:09:00]
You honor them and you respect them without affirming them. So you're not saying, I agree with you. You're saying, Hey, Bob, wouldn't you say that here? What I hear you say is, and then I restate your, the thing that you have argued and if you go, yeah, that's, that's what I mean.
Now we can actually engage the topic. But really until we come to that point, that we both understand, I mean really ti understand what you're trying to say to me. I can't really engage. And this is what I see so often, is we assume not only do we assume we understand what they mean, we caricature it into the worst possible lens and an angle.
And we just come at 'em with like, oh, so you, and then we throw this. Wild straw man argument at them. And, and then all of a sudden we just start arguing about that. And, and here's, here's the thing. I think one that displays arrogance. It, it is, is a lack of humility. it doesn't [00:10:00] honor anyone, and it's not gonna accomplish anything.
Like, do you actually want to see someone's perspective change? and if you do. have to understand what their actual perspective is, or you can't help them change it.
Bob Bickford: You're right. Assumption of motive and intent really shut down a conversation. and so I think instead of saying, so what you're saying is, and then fill in your assessment. You might need to change your language to say, I just want to be sure that I'm hearing you correctly, I'm understanding your point it's and then you explain in your words, what you've
JimBo Stewart: mm-hmm
Bob Bickford: I think that invites them to, to be the final verifier or. disqualify of what you just said. Right? So here's what I heard you say. Did I understand you accurately? Well, yes or no. Right. So that invites PE two people to come together a conversation rather than to assume a motive and, and kind of, well, here's what I think you're [00:11:00] all about.
And here's. who, who here's, where I think this is coming from, you just want to fill in the blank, whatever gonna shut somebody down. and so I I'm, as I'm thinking and processing this, I'm thinking, okay, this is, this is, a necessary approach with people who are, not Christians and who you're seeking to share the gospel with.
This is also a. some sort of, this is a, a skill that you need to develop with adversaries or people who are becoming adversaries in the church, right.
Because they have, talk about the conflict is probably higher inside the church than it is with a non-Christian outside the church. I would imagine the
and the intensity level.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
I think especially when it comes to conflict within the church to, to listen, listen for the purpose of understanding, not responding, and, and here's the thing, like we said, one, you, you can't actually engage the topic until you understand, and you have a, an understanding of where you're coming from.
two, you get to honor that person without affirming their beliefs and [00:12:00] respect them. And then three, because you've honored them and treated them respectively respectfully, and with integrity, they might actually be open to listening and wanting to fully understand what you have to say. and then, and, and you've set ground at that point.
When they maybe do misunderstand your perspective to say, Hey, just like earlier, I wanted to make sure I clearly understood you the way you're responding to what I said. I'm not sure that you have a clear I'm I'm not being as clear as I want to be. So let, let me attempt to be clear in my perspective, and because you've honored them in, in working through their perspective, they'll probably, hopefully if they have some emotional maturity honor, your opportunity to clarify your perspective.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I think so. that's really what we're trying to do is establish some common ground for understanding, and we might learn something along the way. Again, you wanna line up all of the categories that this kind of skill or this kind of, response would be, [00:13:00] helpful in, talked about in terms of leadership organization, you know, organizational health perspective, Personal relationships, you know, all number of different things.
You, don't own the corner of truth on all of those things, right? And, and particularly your personality. This reminds me of, of going back to even some of the, the podcasts we've done with Les McEwen, a visionary is gonna see something completely different than a processor,
JimBo Stewart: Mm-hmm
Bob Bickford: typically the most, difficult two personalities to, to, work together, close in an organization.
But. Personalities, both leadership styles are absolutely necessary. And so two would really need to, master this ability to look at an issue from both sides.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. And you, you referenced earlier the leadership judo series we did, in my opinion, that's one of the best running series we've done on our podcast. And so bootcamper, man, I'd encourage you go to replant bootcamp.com, go to the search bar, just type in judo and only there's only a few [00:14:00] episodes that would come up with judo in the word, in the word search.
and it really, I've shared that series with so many because. I think it was, it was a very helpful way to approach things. I wanna shift gears a little bit, cuz it's, I'm not only talking about things that are adversarial. I think this is a very important skill on things that are adversarial.
but even beyond that, like I was referencing with CS Lewis. we get ourselves sometimes as believers into these theological or ecclesiological kind of camps and. I'm reformed or I'm not reformed or, you know, I'm whatever camp. And so we only wanna listen to people that are kind of in that group, in that camp.
and I think we have to be careful to not put ourselves into echo chambers and, not let things challenge what we believe. And I think, I don't think your primary reading should be people. Are what you would consider to even be dangerous perspectives or bad perspectives. I think there are guys like us CS Lewis, cuz that's just as easy example, cuz like everybody loves CS Lewis, but most people don't [00:15:00] realize he has some really wonky beliefs on some things.
and so we all love to read him and quote him on certain things, but. Even read the things you disagree with and let it at least challenge your thinking. Cuz here's one of the things one it'll challenge. You. But in that, it'll give you a deeper understanding of what you believe and why you believe it.
Right. part of the extremes we've talked about before is like the CEO versus the chaplain and the overly pragmatic versus the purest and the strategist versus the overly spiritual, that kind of thinking. And, and here's the deal, whichever of that pendulum you swing real far towards, I would encourage you to read some good, well written stuff.
On the other end of the spectrum. and, and so if you're hardcore, theological, spiritual without, and you don't really like to think a lot about pragmatic leadership, man, read some good leadership stuff and, and think through it in a biblical framing. And here's the deal, not all of it's gonna fit, but you have to learn how to eat the meat and spit out the bones.
when it comes to some of those things, but if you're like a [00:16:00] pure pragmatist and strategist and, and it's just all about that, then man, you ought to, you ought to pick up something like really deep and theological and rich and let it challenge you, especially something that even challenges the way you view your ecclesiology.
and, and here's the thing it's, you're either gonna learn. Different perspectives that you never would've considered before, because you're outside of your echo chamber. And it's the only way to learn different perspectives, or you're gonna grow deeper conviction for what you already believe in. It's gonna become more real and more concrete because you've, you've pitted against something with a different perspective and you've analyzed and, and studied scripture and thought, man, no, even more.
So now I believe what I came into this believ.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I, I would think That's an important task to do, but I, I would think that there need to be some safeguards in there and, a couple of thoughts. So, so, so one when I went to Midwestern seminary, way [00:17:00] back in the day, we were in the midst of a, change from very moderate, liberal to conservative at that seminary.
So I basically had two. experiences. And so the first, my first semester, or first year in, at seminary, we were reading way outside of our tribe. I mean, , it was like but the thought was, and the educational kind of philosophy was, want you to read way outside of your tribe. And read from our tribe so that you really know what they believe.
And you know, what you believe so that you leave here with the firm foundation, right? That was year one, two. of the, all of the reading outside your tribe philosophy was gone. It's, here's what we believe. Here's the historic faith delivered to us, et cetera. Right. So I really had two different seminary experiences in that regard.
Right. So the first one we were reading, like Schey marker and malt man, and know, all just wacky stuff. right. It was like, these guys even believe [00:18:00] in Jesus, like, I mean, what is going on here? Right. And it was just craziness. And then the next, the next semester it was. You know, only the Puritans only the reformers, you know, et cetera.
Right. So I really had this, this really interesting experience in seminary. I think where, where my caution would be is for the guys who are out of school or the guys who are, are not going to school. And you're starting to read outside your tribe, read in community with people who know you and you know them.
Who you have the foundation of historic rudeness? in the faith, especially if you're gonna read matters, theological matters, theological books. so that you're doing that in community and you're not doing that in isolation. My, concern would be that some guys. You know, read one book and then they don't read it critically.
And they, they aren't challenged in their assumptions of that book. Or maybe they're not understanding fully all the aspects of that book. And then they might find themselves heading [00:19:00] off, down an exit, off of the, Orthodox highway a little bit here. and, and so I would be concerned about that.
So if you're gonna do that, and you're not in, in community, do that in a community that you have some rootedness in, so that if, if you're starting to try to dialogue and process new ideas or new truth, you're, you're doing that in the context of a community of faith, uh, with kid brother,
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I'll tell you, like there's a series of books out there. Uh, I don't even know who puts 'em out there, but there's a series of books that are like the five views of, and then it'll go through something like that. and it'll, it'll kind of get all the different perspectives. We, when I was replanting at redemption had a, had a guy who.
Wanted to be considered as an elder candidate. but he had a different theological view on something than we held. and so what I did is he wanted to discuss it further. So we got that the five views of that theological issue book, and we worked through it together for about six months and we would meet once a week.
We would have assigned reading.[00:20:00] It's one of those where, like I said, it gave me a lot more insight into the different perspectives of that theological view. It didn't change my theological view. I was open to if, they could prove that scripture teaches something different than what I believed I was open to being corrected.
I believe I was. But through that journey, it really honestly gave me a deeper understanding and deeper conviction of my theological perspective. as I waited against the other perspectives and really tried to analyze and understand where they were coming from and how they came to that conclusion.
and it really, I I've, I grew so much deeper in my conviction of my original position as a result.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, tied to scripture in, within community, seeking to understand. and, dialoging with, people I think is really the key part of all of this. And I, I do think it's important to. To understand the different arguments and the different points from the variety of [00:21:00] perspectives. Because as you mentioned, the real is you're gonna have leaders within your church that maybe wanna rise up to a higher level of leadership.
They're gonna have different perspectives. You're gonna have church members, you likely will receive an email or two, which was common for me. I would receive an email from, uh, a church member who would say, I got a question about this issue, right? And so I
JimBo Stewart: mm-hmm
Bob Bickford: perspective is on this issue, right.
Or be in a small group meeting. I had a person with a different view of salvation and, does God initiated, does the worst free will and you know, all those kinds of things in sovereignty and predestination and those things would come up within the small group discussion. Right? And so to be in the different perspectives enough to be able to answer some of those things.
that's just one issue. And so I think it is important to be prepared and, and be a lifelong learner in, in these sorts of.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. I mean, I think about, I mean, I think about different people that I've learned from and benefited from that I for sure do not agree. 100% with, I mean, there's some great [00:22:00]stories and illustrations from Tony Capello that I love. I love GK Chesterton. He was a Roman Catholic. you know, I think about, I, I love.
So I, there are some really great leadership stuff from Andy Stanley. I don't agree with Andy Stanley's old Testament theology. I don't wanna unhitch. I, I want to hitch that trailer and I wanna, I wanna, I, I wanna stay hitch to that and, there are different, but here's the thing, man. I I've learned some really written in my, I don't know about you Bob, but as we come to the end of our time, my journey, I was thinking about this when I became a believer.
I was influenced by very different people than I mostly listened to and read now. Right. And I mean, I, I had like a whole process of evolving and, evolving may not be the right word maturing in maturing in my theological perspective. But here's the other thing I remember. I remember being a college student at a Christian college [00:23:00] and a professor came to me and wanted to.
Convinced me to sneak a tape recorder into my old Testament professor's class, because he was convinced my old Testament professor was a liberal. And I said, I'm not sneaking a tape recorder in a class. I said, what is your issue with what he teaches? And he said, well, he teaches evolution. And I. I mean, I haven't heard that yet.
I said I'll, if I hear that, I'll let you know. Here's what happened as I went in, I kind of wish I would've taken the tape recorder in what the professor did. Is he fairly represented different perspectives of the Genesis narrative? Right. Here are the different perspectives. And here's why they believe these things.
Here's why this perspective believes this. Here's why this perspective believes this. He said, this is an academic class, and I want you to know that those perspectives are out there. You need to study scripture and you need to figure out what, what the holy spirit tells you. You know, as you're studying it, you don't [00:24:00] test it on everybody's perspectives, but you need to be aware of them.
And you be aware of where they come from. Well, this professor wasn't teaching you to believe evolution.
He. He did teach what E evolutionary, creationist and evolutionists believe and why they believe it, but he wasn't defending it. He wasn't advocating for it. He was just letting you know clearly that's what the perspective was.
I think we just gotta, we've gotta believe that we pursue truth, we pursue Jesus because he is truth. And if we pursue truth, we can land on Jesus.
Bob Bickford: we live in a time where, Words and meanings and truth are all sort of in the salad bowl, Jimbo, and they're sort of getting tossed to and F if you're the kind of person that doesn't like a mixed salad or you want things segmented, you probably struggle in this cultural reality that we live in, but kids, and I say kids, you know, younger people that are younger than me are all kids Jambo, [00:25:00]basically.
So. the culture that we live in views it differently than, than I did growing up. And I think for, for some, they feel, they feel threatened by just hearing and opposing view. Right. And so I think this really gets to the heart of what we're, we're you're trying to, to us in, uh, the discussion here is. Because Jesus is true. And the scripture has been delivered to us, which is true and authoritative, uh, for us and inspired and narrow and all those good things. We have a source of truth, we build our, our doctrine on our practice, on our lives, on our understanding of who God is and who we are. We build on that. And so we, we don't advocate departing from that. We advocate using that as a lens by which we evaluate everything and. That would even include some who may have a, a, a bit different take on, some things that we might have a, a firm conviction about. so, long as we stay tethered scripture and examine and look and be [00:26:00] like the BES, right, we wanna test this, right.
We want to
is this true? Is it not true? And we want to be, we want to be deliberate and we want to deliberate. And, think we can do that in the sense. If we can do that with a sense of seeking Jesus, staying true to what God's word says, that in community. I think, I think we can navigate some, things that will be, important for us.
The tribalism. I think the hard, I think what we're trying to talk about here, tribalism that exists. In our culture and perhaps even in the church world right now says I'm not even gonna listen to, to what somebody has to say, or I'm not even gonna, I'm not even gonna sit at the table with this dude at an associational event because he likes so.
And so I think we're. probably not where we need to be. And,
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah.
Bob Bickford: clean and practical in that regard, of a person, boot camper, is in your association of churches, group of churches, tribe, whatever feel differently or believe differently about some things than you [00:27:00] do.
Could you still sit at a table and have a, a, a with him? Anything, but in particular, could you talk about the areas in which you differ and seek, seek to understand what he believes, share, what you believe then Jesus in, in terms of your ministry context?
JimBo Stewart: I'll tell you even as a point of evidence in this, I've been studying the book of Proverbs pretty in depth in my quiet time. And there's whole sections of the Proverbs that are basically built off of Egyptian Proverbs. and, and they're adapted. I mean, there, I mean there's, and there's evidence of that.
And, but it's adapted to where it points to the one, true God, not to a, a random God. And we see, as we see a biblical example of that, right. We see the apostle Paul at Areopagus quote, a pagan poet, as he's at Mars hill Aeropagus and he's, talking about how we're we're sons of God, and there is one true God.
And so, Truth points to Jesus. And so we should never be [00:28:00] afraid of pursuing truth. Hey, as we close out, just wanted to say we have yet to receive an answer back to the challenge, the gauntlet that you threw down last week, to Tom Rainer and mark Clifton for the shirt, shirt and skins 2 0 2 basketball game.
So we're still hoping to see that happen.
Let's get right to it, the boys break down some of the key insights from the 2022 Replant Summit held in Alpharetta at The North American Mission Board. Also, a challenge has been issued to take on the hosts from Revitalize and Replant to a 2 on 2 hoops contest!
Now, on to the Summit insights. * Mark Clifton reminded us why we have doubts and the answer is a person named Jesus. * Brian Croft reminded us that the call to Pastor is a call to die a little each day for the sake of the flock. * Jordan Raynor reminded us to go to the author of time about how to manage time And he also reminded us to close our open loops. * Min Lee reminded us that God overcomes obstacles by using the body of Christ * Mark Hallock reminded us you teach what you know but you reproduce who you are! * Frank Lewis reminded us that we are carriers of hope through what we preach and who we are * Bob Bumgarner reminded us that we need each other, we are not to Pastor alone * Nick Ian Carter let us in worship, check out his music
You can listen to all the great presentations here: 2022 Replant Summit or sign up for the Replant Hub and watch them there
Did you attend the Summit? We'd love to hear from you. If you are considering Replanting we'd love for you to join us at Southern Seminary, October 28-29, 2022 for Am I a Replanter? JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp, Bob. I hope you're ready for the next episode, we are post summit wrap up and catching up on all the great things that happen here in
Bob Bickford: Alpharetta. I mean, we've had a great couple days it's been fun. We just had a fun dinner with, happy huggy Hallock and, Jeff de and Matt and Tiffany holdall
JimBo Stewart: We had several people come. We had a residencies round table. Mm-hmm after, we have a lot of residencies all across the country, met with a lot of those guys after the summit, just to see what they're doing, see how God's moving. And it's really cool to see all the things God's doing all across
Bob Bickford: the country.
Yeah. Yeah. Tonight I had some sushi with uh Hallick
JimBo Stewart: yeah, he's not a very adventurous.
Bob Bickford: No, he's not. He's kinda like Clifton. Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: I mean, he's not, he's not quite as bad as Clifton, but he's, he's pretty close, but he, he said that you make him feel safe.
Bob Bickford: Well, it's good. And maybe it's cuz he hugs me so much that I make him feel safe, but, but we just, we want to acknowledge a couple things.
We, I think we've got a podcast feud going on with a lesser known podcast,[00:01:00] called revitalized replant with, uh, Tom. Rain's got Tom rain, some old guys. I don't, you know, so I don't know what some think they used to do something I'm not sure about, but, uh, apparently Clifton. Clifton slammed us for, being millennials who like to eat at, adventurous restaurants.
Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: He had a, there was an episode with him and Rainer talking about, why small churches are coming back. Yeah. And they were talking about the generational differences with millennials mm-hmm and said that, millennials love to go to hole in the wall restaurants with complex menus and, and Clifton just wants to go to cracker barrel.
Or Bob Evans, where he knows what's gonna be on the menu and he knows he can pour ketchup on
Bob Bickford: everything. . Yeah. And we, but you know what I Jimbo you've been with me and I'm a, as a Yelp elite Yelp elite, uh, I'm gonna be seeking out the adventurous, eats the local places, the Becks breakfast burrito. And here we are in alpha red, and we've actually had a gas station Reto, which has been pretty good, but here's, here's how I think we're gonna settle [00:02:00] this.
We're gonna challenge. And I. Boot campers, you can feel free to drop comments on revitalizing replant. Yeah. Let 'em know. On Twitter, Jimbo and I here by challenge mark Clifton and Tom Rainer to a two on two basketball game. Oh. And they're gonna be skins and wear shirts.
JimBo Stewart: look, you didn't run this by me. and I got a lot of questions
Bob Bickford: but Hey, I think your laughter is a sign of affirmation. .
JimBo Stewart: Question number one. Have you ever seen me play
Bob Bickford: basketball? It doesn't matter. It's mark Clifton and Tom Rainer
JimBo Stewart: question number two. Do they have to be skins? Cause I don't know. I don't know that I want to do that.
Bob Bickford: Look, I'm already. I wanna win the game before we even have to go on the court. So I think that's forfeit right
JimBo Stewart: there. All right. Boot campers, you go tag revital, replant, you tag mark Clifton, Tom Rainer. You let him know, do it challenges on challenges on. Hey summit was really, really good man. Highest attended.
Yeah. I think we've ever had, yeah, well over [00:03:00] 200, in the room, normally we have round tables that everybody gets to sit at. We didn't have room for 'em. We had to do theater seating, pack everybody in there. I know even some of the feedback I got was. I had no why we didn't have round tables, but I missed it.
Yeah. but man, it was a, it was a really dynamic couple of days.
Bob Bickford: It was. And, and we had the most, ladies visit, the, the secu to the summit. We had, I think about 50 ladies in the WIS breakout session. So that was really good. And, a lot of good speakers. some familiar faces and, uh, we also ran into a lot of boot campers and here's, here's one thing that puzzled me boot camp audience is is somehow we were announcing the summit, like, you know, every week.
And then somehow maybe people turn the, boot camp off right at the end and miss the, the final, maybe. So stay to the very end. You'll you'll get the gold at the end, right? Yeah. It's like the last drop of some good sweet, yeah. You know, sweet tea. But, they didn't know that I was gonna be here. and at least a couple of 'em said, I heard your voice.
And I thought, wait a second. I recognize that voice [00:04:00] from the bootcamp. Okay. So I work at the north American mission board. I'm the associate director of replant. Jimbo is, a replant specialist working with, assessments and research and academics and all that kind of stuff. And we do the replant bootcamp podcast, not as a NA thing, but as you know, a thing that you started before you came onto Nam.
Yeah. But we work for. Yes, we do
JimBo Stewart: work for NA and we'll be at the replay events. We invited you to the summit for like 15 episodes and you were surprised we were there,
Bob Bickford: but Hey, we are
JimBo Stewart: glad to see you. I'm not sure what to make of that but I was really glad to see you glad to meet you. Hey, uh, here's what we wanna do for this episode.
one for those that did make it, and then two, for those that didn't, hopefully at some point soon, we'll have videos of the main sessions available. Uh, once we do, we may even drop the links to those in these show notes and yeah, I think they're out
Bob Bickford: even now. Oh, are they already out? Yeah, we'll put '
JimBo Stewart: em on the show notes.
Yeah, we'll put 'em on the show notes. Really, really good sessions, man. All of 'em. All of 'em were so good. [00:05:00] And at the very end, Bob Bumgarner, who we actually did the last two or three episodes yeah. With, he was the final guy and he did such a good job of kinda recapping high points from each of the.
and I let's just, Bob let's use that as like a springboard. Yeah. And let's talk about some of the high points that we learned. Cause there was gold. So listen to the gold and then go into the show notes, replant bootcamp.com click on this episode, go to the show notes and look for links to the videos, watch the whole sessions.
And I really honestly believe you'll be blessed
Bob Bickford: by that. I think so especi. Jimbo, I think this, the, the theme, was it reset and replenish? Was that it replenish and reset. Okay. Replenish and reset. so many pastors right now are really just exhausted and yeah, it it's been hard. This, this summit, this, this year's replen summit will be, really helpful for you, even if you didn't come.
Yes. And you're just gonna listen to it, like podcast it, listen, maybe devotional. one or two of these a [00:06:00] week, or maybe just, if you wanna space it out, this will really be helpful for you. So let's get to the goal.
JimBo Stewart: What? Yeah. So the, the boss man himself, the well done, steak, ketchup pour and Bob Evans, loving international harvester hat, wearing sweater vest, wearing bluegrass, listening, bluegrass listening, tractor, loving antique collecting boss, man himself, mark Clifton started himself with, uh, he reminded us.
Why we struggle with doubts and that the answer to everything we're dealing with, this is such a great way to start off mm-hmm that there is an answer and it has a name and its name is Jesus. Yeah. That is the an, I mean all these things ultimately, and it's one of the things I love about the replant team is we continue to, before I was on it.
So what maybe love the replant team, is just the continual heralding of the gospel as the answer to what
Bob Bickford: we're. . Yeah, I, I think there's so much that happens in the replant and [00:07:00]revitalization world that deals with strategy and approach. And how do you change this and how do you change that?
That we, we fail to really understand what this is all about. If we move on past the fact that Jesus it's his church, he died for it. He is the, the center. He's the head of the church. And, the verse that I just always go back to is cautions 1 28 and 29. And the first phrase in the verse, him, we proclaim, right?
We, this is about Jesus, that it's about him. It's his story. And his story is not just something that's for our head, but it's for our hearts. And so the re planters who are really struggling right now and just get back to falling in love with Jesus and seeing him as your source, the source. The answer, et cetera.
I know those sound cliche, right? Yeah. But I think when we get away from that, we, we really, we find ourselves in a place to struggle. Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: Hey mark. Already put this one out on his Facebook for his Mondays, with mark. He put the link to this video so you could watch it there. You can check [00:08:00] it in the show notes.
So if that, if that gold nugget, what did your appetite like a well done steak does for mark Clifton then go watch that video. Next up is our good buddy. One of our best friends, Brian craw from practical shepherding, reminded us that the call to pastor is a call to die a little each day for the sake of the flock.
Mm-hmm . I was so excited to hear this one because I heard Brian speak a lot of places in a lot of different contexts and ways and, and he has a lot of great. in this one, though. He was nervous. He told me he was nervous. It, it was the first time he gave this particular talk. He's been meditating on it for a really long time.
And he was excited for the opportunity to share. And just talked about why is pastoral ministry so uniquely hard mm-hmm and he says so unique. We had a lot of reasons that make it complex, but really ultimately the key answer is it's so uniquely. Because a call to pastor is a call to die a little bit [00:09:00] each day.
Mm-hmm for the sake of the flock
Bob Bickford: and the glory of God. Yeah. In the, in the show notes, you can watch his, episode. And he said something along the lines of this, the Scottish pastor said something to him about, being a pastor and being an older pastor and talking about the fact that it was so challenging to, just have a broken heart, right.
Pastoring. And he said, you know, one of the tasks of a pastor I'm gonna paraphrase, I'm not gonna get this exactly. But he said die. Growing old with a peace, with a heart that's at peace. Right. And, um, you you'll watch it. You'll listen to Brian. You know, Brian will say it as he said it, but I, I think, in my own experience when he was telling me, cuz I was, I saw him at Southern seminary and he was telling me about the gist of his talk.
And so in my mind, Jimbo, here's what, here's what I began to think of. I mean, to think of the relationships and the, and the hardships of pastoring people and the heartache of pastoring people and the fact that a little piece of. Was broken each time for a family going through a hard time or for a person who walked away or person who left our replant or for a person I [00:10:00] had a conflict with.
And, and so, so much of what I think Brian is, is just talking about that's the reality, right? And so don't be surprised by it, but come to the place where you can be at peace with it, that you're gonna leave a lot on the, on the field. You're you're gonna bleed, you're gonna have some marks. You're gonna have some scars.
And so Brian, in his, his way that only Brian can. Did a fantastic job of breaking that down for us.
JimBo Stewart: Absolutely. If that nugget Webster appetite, then check out that video link in the show notes about Brian crosstalk. Then next up was Jordan Rainer. Awesome. not a pastor, never been a pastor. So why would we let him talk at the replant summit, man?
Because he was talking about one thing that seems to plague almost every single pastor. We've talked about it on here before we've referenced his. Redeeming your time, seven biblical principles to live wildly productive and present and, and purposeful with your life and got so much good feedback from everybody that heard that.
I, I got [00:11:00] feedback from people that heard it. I got people back from people that said, man, I wish. My pastor that wasn't here, heard this, or I wish that my youth pastor, my youth pastor had heard this and I'm taking back a copy of this book, giving it to people. And, man, it was goal. He, and it really just kind of dipped his toes into the, those seven principles in the book.
and so then you really gotta, so here's what I would encourage you to do if, if that's, if you want to get better at letting your yes. Be yes. And not letting your to-do list, manage. But rather you manage it, watch that video, let it wet your appetite. And here's the good news. You can go a little deep.
If you wanna take one step deeper. He has a, he actually has a new study on right now, media. You can go to right now media, if you have that, if your church utilizes that, or if your church doesn't utilize that, just find a buddy whose church utilizes that and have him give you an account. And then you can go on and you can watch Jordan Rainer go a little bit deeper than even what he did with us.
But if you really wanna dive in by the. read through each chapter pretty quick, skim it, understand it, then go back one [00:12:00] chapter time and really work through it and start implementing some of
Bob Bickford: those The, these are all the things you should have learned in seminary, but didn't yeah. Right. And these are the things that get you fired, because you didn't learn them.
Yeah. Right. And these are the kinds of things that make you wake up one day in your middle aged life and go. I think I missed a few things. Yeah, right. So, so I loved, uh, I loved it super practical, super helpful. it was cool. We, we got to meet with him in the lobby on like so Sunday night, right? Yeah.
And, and, uh, what a great guy, what great insights. So man, pastor, don't think this is dry and boring. This is like vitally, uh, life giving
JimBo Stewart: information. It's so good. So go to the show notes, find that link to that video, sink your teeth into that next. We had former replant of the year. Yeah. Men Lee, uh, and, and Bob Bumgarner's summer, he said men Lee reminded us that God overcomes obstacles by using the body of Christ.
man, men Lee's maybe was one of my favorite talks of the whole thing. [00:13:00] He is, he is an enigma wrapped in a. I mean this guy deep
Bob Bickford: fried in a wonton with salsa on top
JimBo Stewart: this, yes, this dude is so awesome. So we've talked about men on here before. I don't know if we've had him on here before. I think we have maybe, oh, we
Bob Bickford: might have, we did a re planter of the year
JimBo Stewart: video.
I know we did that. Yeah. So ley is a Korean American who has replanted. One of the oldest historic Hispanic churches in Los Angeles as a multicultural church. And then here is my favorite, like just to, just to add to the layers of complexity, this whole thing. Yes. That's the university is a USC calls. Him says we have a bunch of international students that have never had an American Thanksgiving meal.
Will you as a pastor serve them. And he, a Korean American looks at his Korean American wife and. have you ever had, like, how do we do, like, let's just make some Turkey and see gravy. Like they'd never had an American Thanksgiving meal, but he [00:14:00] was like, but it's an opportunity to meet lost people. Let's do it.
Let's do it. uh, I think my other favorite story was the first time they used their Baptist street. They flooded the whole church,
Bob Bickford: cuz it broke. It was like an old, brittle fiberglass Baptist or something. Here's here's when I, when I hear men talk and we've, we've got to be around him a couple of times and hear him.
Here. There is no more joyful purehearted yeah. Godly person replanted than ly. Yeah. Right. And he's just gonna find a way to reach out to the community. And he's in one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in all of, uh, And it has bad reputation and the Lord just keeps bringing him people and opening doors for him to do yeah.
Ministry in the community, whether it's getting the library's hand sanitizer, starting a jujitsu class in his church, starting a guitar class in his church, creating, uh, a youth group, you know, in, in his, um, his, his church because he's reaching the neighbors and the neighbors are like, I've got too many [00:15:00]grandkids.
I need to send 'em away for a while. he's like send all the grandkids to, so they have instant. Manley's just one of these great guys. Who's super humble. Super gracious. Yeah. And he follows Jesus. And so, um, man, what a purehearted guy. Uh, and, and what a, what an inspiration. No,
JimBo Stewart: I love him. So I, man, I highly recommend go watch that video.
You, you, you need to watch that one. Cuz he uses a lot of pictures from what God's been doing there at his church. Go watch that video. It'll bless your heart for sure. then next, starting day. Was happy, huggy, Hallock, mark Hallock with the cavalry family of churches. And he reminded us that you teach what, you know, what you reproduce, who you are.
And he really dove into, the idea of perseverance mm-hmm , based off of, he has a book on the perseverance of a godly pastor. And that's part of the kind of larger Magnum Opus textbook that he has leading church revital. and so he dove into [00:16:00] that really walks very practically through why pastors don't persevere and then kind of eight things you need to do in order to persevere.
Bob Bickford: The eight things were gold. Yeah. And, um, and it started with the devotional time. Yep. Uh, and, uh, he just spoke so passionately as mean how, I don't think Howick never, he never does not speak with passion.
JimBo Stewart: I don't know that he does anything, not . I know he like, he like orders at a restaurant with just Gusto and
Bob Bickford: passion.
I know he drinks root beer in my backyard with great passion. Right. So, we love Howick he's a rare gem, that is just a super gracious guy. And so you're gonna, you're gonna love those eight things that he talked about. Yeah. That are keys to persevering as a.
JimBo Stewart: Yep. So definitely dive into that one and get the, get the book, get the leading church revitalization book.
It's a really good one. Then Frank Lewis, who planted a church in Las Vegas and has done a revitalization at first Baptist Nashville. Now he's a revitalization pastor at another church. Um, after he is retired [00:17:00] after yeah. His retirement is helping revitalize
Bob Bickford: the dying church. Yeah. I think his retirement totally lasted maybe a week.
Yeah. I don't know.
JimBo Stewart: Andy got a DMN, I think in the process. Oh, he's getting
Bob Bickford: like two certifications and yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. So
JimBo Stewart: he is, he's a, he's a good dude and he is just staying after it. Yeah. And he just wants
Bob Bickford: to serve churches. One thing I love about Frank is he's new to us. Yeah. So I haven't really been around him.
Clifton's, you know, been around him for, or has known his writings actually for a while. And, Frank is a deep devotional leader. Mm-hmm right. So as he speaks. He speaks with just this, this undercurrent of devotion and practicality, that was really inspiring and surprising to me. Yeah. Like I didn't, and I, I gotta have, I had dinner with him and breakfast with him and he's just a good genuine guy and is a good listener and a good question, asker.
And I think his whole series on, on helping guys think about how do they preach with hope. Yeah. And what he talked about was super practical. [00:18:00] I think he said this. He was like, man, copy it and use it. And you don't have to tell him who, who you got it from because nobody knows who I am anyway.
JimBo Stewart: I know. Was it really good? He was so good, man. He just reminded us that we are carriers of hope. So here's the deal to wet your appetite on that one? if you think, man, I would love to preach about hope. What text would I. Preach about hope. And, and so what he did is, is beyond the idea of just like looking up hope in the concordance or typing it into Google.
He really took even beyond like, kind of, how do you look at that from some, different angles of forgiveness and all, I mean, what are old Testament passages? I mean, he literally gave like a masterclass on, Hey, if you wanna preach out, here's. A two dozen text yeah. That you could use. And here's how you could approach it.
He doesn't give you the sermon. You still gotta study the text. You still gotta write the sermon, but this may not have been a text. You ever would've considered. Oh man. If I want to give hope to my congregation, this is a text. [00:19:00] Yeah. And he talked about, I mean, preaching through the one anothers and Hiba and going all through all these things.
Is it AIC or, or have cook? I've heard it both.
Bob Bickford: and when I preached to, I, I think I said Hiba. Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: That's that to me feels the most, right? Not ha
Bob Bickford: cut. Is that what you said? I've heard people say it. Yeah. Well, there's a camp called Ock Ahab or hock. HACU there's a camp called Ock can Branson. Yeah, but it's not.
Nope, not that it's not. Haak it's Hiba Hiba.
JimBo Stewart: There. We. All right. So Frank did a great job giving us some great sermon series ideas, go watch that video link in the show notes. And then the man himself, who's been with us for several weeks. Now, the other Bob, we gotta release him back to his wife at some point.
The other Bob, brought some gold man and he reminded us that we need each other, that we don't need to do this alone. I then he brought up so many points that I really. Illustrated that so, [00:20:00] well, yeah. Uh, one of my favorite things, he went through some Barna statistics on, things that Barna determined, lead to burnout, and you're watching it and you're kind of going, oh yeah.
Yeah. I mean, maybe I struggle with that. Maybe I struggle with that and maybe I don't want to burn. And then you like flip the whole thing on his head with one question, which you like, this is Bob Bumgarner's superpower. Bob's superpower is to flip your entire world on his head with a single question.
Yeah. And so he did it, right. He goes a lot of statistics and then he says, what if these aren't the things that cause burnout, but what if these are the symptoms
Bob Bickford: of burnout? Yeah, that was, that was gold. And it was a, a pivot then, for him to really unpack some really powerful things about, Helps us not burn out.
Right. Yeah. And what helps us last in ministry. And, and so Bob, Bob does a fantastic job of breaking all that down. And, um, I think it was a great session to end on because we, we were able to walk [00:21:00] out the door with, okay, these are some really good things and it all really just centered in around relationships.
And, particularly the, the thread that you guys have developed at, at the association in Jacksonville, don't pastor alone.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. . Yeah, I think one of the other things that, he did so well is he talked about how the apostle Paul, we think of kind of the apostle Paul as this dynamic, unbelievable hero mm-hmm of the new Testament.
And he did a, like a, literally like a word cloud of essentially Paul's network of people and talks about, I mean, without an Annia, like Paul's still blind. Yeah. And without barn of us, he has no credibility amongst the apostles. He just keeps going through this list and, and shows you like Paul, Paul's not this by himself.
Pastor alone, minister alone, missionary alone guy. He, Paul is not the Paul we know without a village of people helping him become
Bob Bickford: that guy. Yeah. Every pastor [00:22:00] needs a friend. Every pastor needs a team. Every pastor needs. Other pastors leading around them and, and Bob did a nice job of that. And I, he put up a tic TAC toe square at the end of his presentation.
Mm-hmm with you in the middle, I think. Yeah. And then talked about who you need around you and, and so pay attention to some of the slides that he used. And then, especially pastors, if you are feeling, you're like you're in a place where you, you, you are depressed or you're discouraged and you can't imagine how you might go.
gaining people around you or where you would find support, take a listen to, to the podcast that, or not the podcast, but take a listen to the presentation that Bob put together. And I think you'll be encouraged.
JimBo Stewart: Absolutely. you know, one of the other highlights for me was Nick Carter. Oh man. Leading us in worship.
Yes. man, that dude is gifted.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. We were singing original songs and hymns and. Funny thing. Nick went to Bible college with the pastor of the church that I attend. Now. I remember my pastor. Yeah. [00:23:00]Aaron and Morgan. He knew both of them. and so we, I posted on Facebook, just a picture of, you know, replant, some of it's underway and, Aaron's wife.
Morgan was like, Hey, we love Nick. I was like, holy cow. So. Yeah, the guy who's leading worship is friends with my pastor and his wife. So it was really, really kind of a cool small world.
JimBo Stewart: Tell you one of the things that I I've noticed. I, you know, I've known Nick for a lot of years now and I've always appreciated every time I've gone.
He, he is the, missions and worship pastor at mercy hill church in Yuli, which is a replant of a church there in Yuli called that used to be called celebration. And, uh, Nick's been there for a while. Here's this really simple, but profound thing.
He does that. I think every worship pastor should. every song on the slides at the bottom right hand corner would have a corresponding biblical
Bob Bickford: passage. Yeah. I saw that he did that today. I
JimBo Stewart: love it. Yeah. He, I mean, every song he did, he had that. And here's why I love that. It like, it reminds [00:24:00] us, I mean, we know this, right.
And we think we know this. We think our church members know that what we're singing is biblical. We hope what we're singing is biblical, but it's like, You can almost forget like, oh, like, oh, we're just singing some songs and you know, then we'll get to the Bible. Mm-hmm but Nick has, it's just this, this one little simple thing has just reminded you, Hey, what we're singing is biblical mm-hmm.
like we're singing. Maybe not exact scripture versus quoted. Sometimes we are, but sometimes the idea we're singing is an expression of what you find in this
Bob Bickford: text. Beautiful. I, and I loved it. And, and I think there's for the re planter out there too. Let me talk about something stylistically with Nick, the, the, for the re planter that thinks he has to have a full band.
Nick was just. a guy in a guitar, and then he had his, his buddy, his realtor buddy from Jacksonville mm-hmm Alex, Alex apparently is the [00:25:00] number one realtor, according to according Nick, I dunno if it's
JimBo Stewart: true or not. He's probably the number one realtor as much as we're a nation's leading
Bob Bickford: podcast. Well, we are the nation's leading one of the nation's leading podcast.
So according to page 97 of the SBC
JimBo Stewart: book of reports. Yeah. With a gauntlet of, uh, of a two, a two on two basketball game to
Bob Bickford: settle this well, D we're gonna do that. But anyway, he just a simple guitar with a electric guitar backup, like, so two dudes up there, not a full band. Yeah. And the sound was rich and full and everybody was singing along.
Yeah. And so you can just have a guy in a guitar and, uh, it, it was, it was really good, both, both deep and content, the way he led everything was just really good. And, and, um, to shout out to all the folks who came to the summit, everybody was just singing with great passion. Yeah. And, uh, so much so that. You know, Kevin Zel saw it on, on, uh, Kevin Zo, president of Nam and Jimbo by and I work at Nam.
Right. So, Kevin saw it online. Somebody posted a live video and, and, uh, Kevin was really impressed. And, uh, couple of our, important [00:26:00] guys at Nam, uh, Georgia McAllen, the chief, officer of staffers, uh, chief of staff came down and, and was in worship. And so they came down, they saw it and they came down and they were just like, super, like, you.
Just moved by the, the re planters who were singing and, and really a lot of the re planters, they come from churches where, where they don't get to sing with that many people. Yeah. That loud volume. Yeah. And, uh, and so they were just really rejoicing. And so that's one of the things that's great about the summit is the worship is, is just really the dynamic because everybody's coming there ready to, to praise the Lord and, and, uh, just to part.
JimBo Stewart: Two more things to celebrate before we close out, Bob one, we had a replant her of the year Matthew cloud. Yeah. Matthew MCLE. I tell you what was fun for me with that is, I don't know Matthew, but I know his mentor, Steve Dyson, and that brother is passionate about Matthew cloud. I've talked to I I've man, Steve's become a buddy, like we text and call and, and he he's encouraging to me.
We, I was helping get a re [00:27:00] planter of the year video ready and, and he was so encouraging to me and thanking me for that work. And so I, I snapped a picture as he was up there and sent it to him and said, man, well done, good and faithful servant to Steve, cuz he's recovering from heart transplant and he couldn't be there and mean he, he just sent me this long text message back about just how much Matt means to him.
So we might even link in the show notes, the replay of the year video. You can see that let. One more thing. We, I can't believe we haven't mentioned it yet that we have to celebrate. Kyle didn't come even close to killing any of us.
Bob Bickford: Kyle didn't give us COVID that's right. Last year was
JimBo Stewart: a co we, we made it through, we made it through this whole summit.
Bob Bickford: now well to date right now today at 10, 13 Eastern time, we're
JimBo Stewart: recording the day the summit ended. None of us got COVID yet. None of us have COVID. Now the next couple. Could prove
Bob Bickford: otherwise little tickle in the throat, little sniff in the nose. be cursing,
JimBo Stewart: Kyle, but we've [00:28:00] survived yet far. We didn't have to have a chaos of Exodus.
Bob Bickford: Oh my . Oh, that's right. Like there, we were two presentations in, I had just finished my presentation. We walked off the fortunately cuz we, we walked off the stage Clifton convened us. So I missed whoever last year was the first presenter I. Kyle had called me in the morning and said, I just tested positive for COVID.
So I'm on the phone with like HR and, and we can't get ahold of because we work it NA yes, cuz we work it now. and I was on the phone with texting everybody. And so then it's time for me to speak. So I go and speak as soon as I get off the stage, Clifton brings us all the. And, kicks a few of us out.
Who'd been exposed yeah. And so I, we drove from, we had to leave and it
JimBo Stewart: was just Andy ATS had to step in and like, yes. I mean for, I mean, look, I wanna tell you this about Andy ATS. Yeah. If you gotta have a pitch hitter, what a champ, Andy ATS is about as good as you're gonna get. Yeah. That dude stood up and hit a [00:29:00] home run.
he was dynamic last year. Anyway, I just, we couldn't end this episode without celebrating the fact that we had. At least within the schedule of the summit? No, we had, we did have one attendee have to go to the hospital. It turned out to be bronchitis. Yeah. And he came back. He, he finished us at, finished it out before he went home with bronchitis.
Cuz he wasn't contagious. But yeah. Uh, it was, it was such a great time, man. It an honor to get to be with this. The next thing is, am I re planter? Um, in October at Southern seminary. Louisville. Yeah. Good prince. Love to see.
Here's another great EP with Jimbo and the Bobs talking servant leadership. Every leader and every church lives in tension between selfishness and selflessness. Servant leaders live free and bold lives asking for feedback in order that they may become more, not for their own glory, but for God's glory.
Bob Bumgarner put together a great chart which describes the difference between self-serving and servant leadership. Check it out as you listen to this EP and dig down deep in examining your own leadership world.
There's some great gold in all of the podcast but this quote stands out; "In church planting, you may die of starvation. In church revitalization you may die of a broken heart."
We'd love to hear from you! Do you have questions, comments, stories to share? Drop us a note, email or even voicemail on the Bootcamp hotline.
Give your website the refresh it deserves. Connect with our great sponsor, One Eighty Digital, they'll get you headed in the right direction.
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp, Bob. I hope you're ready for the next episode, Bob. I hope you're ready for the next We are to have, squared yet again, and, uh, excited to have both bobs to do yet. Another episode to follow up a little more on servant leadership we get into that, as presumably.
According to the calendar we enter into this season that I have very little experience with fall. Uh, what does that look like in the you're you're Bob you're Bob Bickford. You're like in a, I don't know where you are geographically. Like, are you in the Midwest? Are you in the south? there a debate on that?
Like do people get debates on where St Louis's.
Bob Bickford: There is some debate Jimbo, but I think the way we describe St. Louis, it's the Western most east coast
city.
JimBo Stewart: That's a long,
Bob Bickford: So if. I know That's it's, it's hard to, you know, describe it. I mean, you come here and if you go to [00:01:00] downtown, you've got red brick buildings. It looks old. I mean, Jimbo, it is the gateway to the west, right?
So back in the day, people settled here and there were all kinds of. Like parts of St. Louis that were Italian or German, et cetera. And, uh, and so we, we do celebrate fall here and it usually begins after what we call the second summer, which is kind of late August, maybe early September, we get one more scorcher.
Of, uh, heat and then the fall kicks in and Gibo, it is delightful in the fall because the leaves turn colors. You've only seen those on hallmark movies when you're watching with Andrea, you know, when, when somebody moves to town with a plaid shirt and marries the girl who's frustrated or whatever, you know, that sort of thing, but fall is, is a time for.
Flannels. And it's also a time for Jimbo vests and I think we've got a wonderful vest, uh,
this year that I'm gonna add to my collection. And I think you're gonna, you've already added it to
your collection. I believe as
well.
JimBo Stewart: With a, the replant, the replant team has some [00:02:00] new swag. So new
merch,
if you go to replant merchant.com, you'll see, we've got a few, few things there. We have a, now I think, I think this is the most on-brand item. We have a. To our merchandise for the replant team. It is a Carhartt vest, which I know when I'll get to wear it other than when I travel out of town.
But I'm excited.
Bob Bickford: Jimbo. I was really excited when you modeled it for me. And I'd like to put that picture on the bootcamp show notes if I can, but I'm not sure I'm allowed.
JimBo Stewart: So Bumgarner, got the, I got the best end to sample to see how it was. and said, send me a picture. so I went ahead and put it on without a shirt and instead of nice, Larry, the cable guy asked. Version, which I submitted that to, uh, our marketing team at Nam and told them they should that for, to the merchandise website, but they said no.
and, had to have a four hour meeting with HR[00:03:00]
Bob Bumgarner: Yeah, I think
I, think you're okay until you suggested a replant calendar and then that kind of took it off the wrinkles.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. When you were holding the can of liquid death, I think to right
water.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Liquid death, the water that looks like a beer can like it's not, it's just water. Yeah. Just to add to the effect. Yeah. it wasn't as appreciated as I thought it would be. I think it's a glorious photo. But that is not why we're on here to talk about my gorgeous body, but to talk about, servant leadership continue to part three, with the servant leadership guru, Bob Bumgarner, as we talk about this.
So ultimately one of the things we started talking about last week was, to fall into the danger of being too nice. Really we weren't talking about being mean or a jerk. were talking about being clear and being, on mission and on point. And so you flip that, so we want to say, Hey, don't be so nice that you allow mission drift and you tolerate a mission creep out of [00:04:00] just try not to shake the apple cart.
But want to flip the script on that a little bit today and talk about. to not make it all about yourself. Right? So like one of the things we talked about in servant leadership last week that you brought up Bumgarner was, some diagnostic questions to think about, if we're on level, if we're at the right place in this, and part of that's even how we to feedback criticism or what, what is it?
trying to be. Something so that our name could be great or are we trying to do something that we feel is something God has called us to, and it's important and that the mission matters more than our name like that. And so, as we look at the landscape of leadership in the world, right now, we talked last week about an overemphasis of competence.
Now we don't need to underemphasize that, but an overemphasis of competence can lead to, uh, just kind of being self-serving. Let's dive a little bit, Bob help us out what's the difference between a self-serving leader and a [00:05:00] servant
leader
Bob Bumgarner: Okay. So when you say that, the first thing I think of is Jesus, in places, but the sermon on the Mount said, you have heard it say. You know, you have heard it said this, but I say this, he takes it to a different level. I think having things, intention like that actually helps us. It gets the clarity there that, that we need.
I think that clarity actually creates the tension. So I think if we're going to say there's servant leadership on this side, then the other side of that is self-serving. Okay. And so the tension is, is not between servant leadership and okay. Leadership. No, the tension is, am I a self-serving leader or am I a servant leader?
And the reality is, like I said, last time, it's a dynamic state. There are days that I'm a pretty self-serving leader. If I'm not, if I'm tired, if I'm hangry, you know, those kinds of things. And so if I'm, if the fruit of the spirit is not present in my life. And so, but I do think that's the right, continuum.
So there's really like seven or so, continuum thoughts to that we maybe would be [00:06:00] helpful at this particular point. And the first one deals with my possessions in my position. And so if I'm a self-serving leader, when I feel like I'm the owner of something when I'm entitled to it.
But, I'm more of a servant leader when I feel like I'm a steward of something and it's on loan. I was in a meeting the other day with. With Tim Maynard, who's the pastorate fruit Cove here in town. And he's celebrating 30 years of ministry, this, this January. And he's re
retiring, not retiring, he's going on to the next thing in ministry.
But the thing that he introduced himself at the kickoff of the search committees and he said, hi, my name's Tim. I have been the, the transitional pastor of this church for 30 years. while everybody chuckled, I was so. For him, because in essence, he was saying, I have stewarded this, for 30 years and it wasn't a Jimbo knows him.
It's not a, it's not an exaggeration. okay. So that's, that's one. You guys want to add anything to the continuum of owner versus steward. Anything you guys want to
say about
that? [00:07:00]
Bob Bickford: Well, I think, you know, we're listening about this as individuals. I'm also thinking about churches because churches have this posture as Right? So I've heard, I've heard churches say church or our church, a possessiveness that really leads to the next one. in the chart that you're going to talk.
Bob Bumgarner: Yeah. So the next one's fear, what's the, you know, what's your greatest fear if you're a self-serving leader or a self-serving church, that your greatest fear is losing your position. and then the, greatest fear, if you are servant leader is disappointing. The father of. What am I supposed to do, to please God, in this, in this moment.
And I think internally paying attention to what's going on, as far as fear, listen to your, you know, your language. actually think that one of the greatest things that I observed. in succession is that we wait too long to help the next generation, embrace their stewardship.
I mean, second Timothy two, two, doesn't say that it's 20, you know, it's 20 years, 20 years 20 at no, it's, it's, it's immediate. You're just [00:08:00] continuously doing that. So, so there, so pay attention to what you fear paying attention to what you fear a, servant leader is open to feedback because really they want to ask the question, how can I do. How can I serve more? How can I, how can my church be better for my community? So they're open and challenged when they receive, feedback.
And then, another one is personal, is personal focus. How do you, you know, where, where is your focus? If you are a, a self-serving leader, then it is, it really is all about you. You're, threatened by somebody else doing. Well, if you're a servant leader, then it's all about getting better.
So for instance, I mean, Jimbo's on our team and, he's an amazingly bright young leader. if I did meet my Cheerios on some days, it'd be easy to be threatened, by his skill and how good he is at things. But at the end of the day, when we understand. a
self-serving leader really wants the best for their team, for their area.
[00:09:00] It's much easier to let people who are good at what they are good at, be good at that. So it, it really
isn't about, us.
JimBo Stewart: I think on all three of those that you've just mentioned, if you, if you look at struggling churches
and dying churches, even
how we see that of of that fear of losing their position. I think of. I think of churches where I've been asked to coach or consult or speak into the situation. And even specifically where I've been asked, Hey, we, we think we
need to be replanted, right. Or something like
that. But the pastor will say something like this. but I need to
remain the lead pastor And while can empathize and understand why that would be a fear. I think we have to be really careful.
Right. And we see even sometimes when a pastor is really close to retirement and afraid of feedback because they're afraid the feedback is going to result in them. Maybe [00:10:00] that. They don't need to continue to be the pastor or they haven't prepared for a transition, to go beyond them.
that personal focus. I mean, that's, if you had to quantify the primary reason that churches seem to decline to the point of death, it's an internal focus. It's a. focused on the preferences and the, the desires of the existing serving the existing congregation rather than serving the community through the congregation.
so I think we have to evaluate ourselves as leaders and, and like Bickford was saying, even let's evaluate the culture of. Churches that were leading and helping. And how are we seeing, are we seeing a culture of servant leadership and that mindset within the church? Are we seeing a culture of being self-serving.
Bob Bumgarner: Yeah, I think a good example. Jimbo is the Calvary network of churches. I mean, when you walk onto their campus, you feel the servant hood. I mean, you've, you [00:11:00] actually, you feel the joy, you feel. Wanting you to, have a great experience, you know, and it's not just Mark's hugs. It's the whole, it's the whole thing.
I mean, how can I help you? What do you need? and what's odd about that is that if you do it from a certain heart, it's actually energizing. In other words, it's not customer service. It's the body set free to be free, to be happy to be what it was in India. uh, to, to segue, the next piece of this continuum would be interpersonal focus.
So a self-serving leader is going to undervalue others, undervalue. as people and as contributors. So think about it this way. Do you think that people have to earn the right to serve? I mean, do they have to, are there dues that have to be paid then if that's the case, then probably you are undervaluing.
the people, but on the other hand, a servant leader is always looking for ways to build others up and value [00:12:00] others. I mean, I, I bet. I bet if we were to have time and we were to live. four or five people you could, you could tell me the names of the people that if they were taken out of your life, you probably wouldn't be doing what you're doing now, because they built you.
they built you up. They gave you that opportunity. They actually believed in you knowing you would probably fail, but they, they helped you see that it wasn't fatal. then, again now moving from interpersonal to organizational focus. when it comes to the organization, we predict, and we've talked about this some, but we protect our position.
You know, it's about Bob being the senior leader, or, you know, Bob being the youth pastor or whatever. Uh, so we tend to protect our position instead of making things better. And here's the thing. If you're the person that's always making things better. Guess what? Whether you're the official leader or not, you're the organizational leader.
I mean, you don't, you don't have to have the title. to lead. And then finally, this whole idea of authority and status, from a self-serving leader [00:13:00] perspective, it's, it's the John, the Baptist thing, you know, you must decrease, in order for me to increase or, Stephen Covey popularized it. he talked about abundance mentality, you know, we can both increase.
We don't like, in other words, the kingdom of God is big enough. People for us to reach or to there's enough darkness in the world for all of us to do good. And so I, the thing that I don't think you want to do with this scale, if people go to the show notes is to beat themselves up with it, but maybe make a Likert scale out of it, you know, how are you doing?
and if there's a, like, I would, to be honest with you, I'd I would have no trouble sitting down with Jimbo and saying, okay, when you look at these. Give me one thing to work on. What's one thing that you think I can move one notch up on. that would probably be a really decent, exercise to do. I will tell you that, there's two things that I've done that have helped myself awareness.
Number one. when I worked, when I worked on a little bit closer team, I was sitting down with Jimbo and I would say this, I'd say, Hey Jimbo, what am I doing? That's making [00:14:00] your job. And then I'd ask the question, what am I doing that just makes everything you do so much harder. And then what's the one thing you want me to keep doing.
And what I found is we would originally have to schedule. but then eventually he just realizes, I want to know that and he just brings it to me, whatever, but I will say the scariest one, I, as I went to my wife and I said, okay, be easy. I said, I said, go easy on me, but what's it like to be married?
Yeah. I mean, what, what's something that, you know, that you, this is your moment. What can I really do better that would make our marriage, you know, 10% better? And she was kind, but honestly I did that with my teenage kids and I did it with Tina and, it was glorious. It was, they, they were kind and it was glorious and it, it sent a message.
So I think we can do
that for our.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I love this proactive moving forward. I want to become better. Mindset that that's, present coast churches and Bob and Jimbo, but let's [00:15:00] be honest, a majority of the churches that we do consultations with and in some, most of our bootcamp listeners, the churches, they pastor, they're not asking these questions.
Like if we, if we were to put the chart out there, they're all the way over to the left side. Right. So help us understand for the bootcamper steps into a church. I mean, it's all about them and what they would lose and that they don't want to compromise and they want to protect, and they don't care about the community, you know, care in the sense of, their actions actually demonstrating that they care for the loss and it's around them.
do we say to help that guy who wants to see his church move more towards the ride and those calls and that those characteristics that would God. Bring glory to Christ help the church beyond mission. How do, how do we help them take of steps in that journey?
Bob Bumgarner: I think that it goes down to working on the bot, the underneath side of the platform, you know, you ask, I think our character can keep us, you know, somebody [00:16:00] said your competence can take you where your character, character. keep you, I think when it comes to revitalization, I think character can keep you there long enough for your competence to actually do some good, but you have to have the long view.
and I think there has to actually be, resilience. You have to be able to bounce back from the attempts, but I think you have to be willing as a revitalizer to experiment with some things. you have to find out who you just have to acknowledge. You may never be the real leader of this congregation for years and oh, okay.
Then find the real leader who is it and, you know, lead through them. I do think one of the things that, is super important is why we have said, don't pass. look at all the people that Paul had in his neck. You know, he had, an an, I S he had Barnabas.
He had Lydia. I mean, I, you just read the, new Testament letters. I mean, his actual network of people, I mean, he Timothy, he didn't, he had Lou, I mean, mark, he looked think of all the people he had. We [00:17:00] think of him as this big stud prophet guy and, and he certainly was, but he didn't, do it alone.
So for revitalization, Don't do it alone. Build your own network. listen to podcasts, read, don't think what are the next seven steps? What's a next step. I mean, those would be things that I've I've jokingly said church planting. May cause death by starvation, but revitalization may cause death by a broken heart and, I get it.
I've pastored. I've replanted. I get, I get that. So, don't lean on your competence, grow your character and do what you can, where you are with what you have. And then at the end of the day, when you put your head on your pillow at night, thank Jesus for the opportunity.
JimBo Stewart: I don't think we've done this with you on the podcast before. what are people may not know about you? Is that early in your ministry, you were a re planter long before replanting was cool. man, just give us a, just a short synopsis of that [00:18:00] story, include the school buses because that's one of my favorite parts of that story.
So just give us a short synopsis of your experience as a re
Bob Bumgarner: So I left seminary with a master of divinity degree. Nobody cared. I went to live in my well, I went to live with my mother and father-in-law's basement, a church in Middletown, Ohio called me and said, will you come and be our pastor? There were 37. 30 of them voted for me, seven of them. Didn't how do I know?
Because on my first Sunday there, the guy didn't vote for me, told me he and his family didn't vote. so anyway, there were two amazing things that happen there. number one, I had no idea what I was doing. I just, I wasn't strategic. I just knew to preach and love people. And so I did that and God started doing some stuff.
we had a parking lot that, was all gravel And so, Sherman came to me one day and he said, Hey, Bob, we really need to do something with this parking lot and put up a hand rail and some things. So the old ladies don't fall off the porch. And so I said, okay, sit down in front of the [00:19:00] church.
The next Sunday, he said, Sherman said, we need a handrail. It's $167. I, I called the guy on, can we raise $167? That was huge. So we did, we raised $200. I called the handrail guy. He came and put the. and something happened in the, in the spirit of that church. People would drive by and they'd pull in the parking lot and they would go look at the hand rail and they'd go back and they'd get somebody.
And here's what I learned there was that was such a small victory, but it changed everything so that people actually started coming. And so then we, we ran out of space. I mean, we had about 130 people coming in. A lot of those were kiddos. And so. We bought four school buses because we had a typical first unit Southern batches building.
We hollowed out the school, buses parked them next to the church. Like it was in a parking lot,
put air conditioners and chairs and shot boards in them. And those
buses were our kids class. I got to tell you, I was a, it was a blue collar [00:20:00] church
on the, in a mill town.
Those people love that. And I'm going to say those people, those were my people.
We loved it. And
it was a great way to serve, the community. But
you just do what you can with what you have.
Bob Bickford: may and I can see a new revitalization book, about to be published. and our friends from a coma for Jesus, grow your pie, grow your church by
hundred And And then also, uh, maybe we could get
Bluebird school buses to sponsor the podcast and we could, uh, find a use for some old buses. And, uh, I think the the eco friendly folks among us Jimbo, I think the eco re planters, which is a very small niche, I'm they might, might be excited about the repurpose of the school.
JimBo Stewart: I love it, man. That's one of the things
that when you meet
Bob Bumgarner, if you meet him, now you have
a context and you kind of have a box. You put him in as
a Sage, a
wise strategic consultant great experience and great wisdom that can help [00:21:00] you strategically. Plan your next step.
And he is all of those things, and has had great experience, Florida Baptist convention as an
executive pastor, with great success and great accolades.
But I
think probably my favorite thing, on his resume, is that he replanted in a
mill town turned school buses into Sunday school classes.
Bob Bumgarner: was fun.
JimBo Stewart: Good. All right, thanks. Bye. I appreciate you doing a few
episodes
Bob Bumgarner: you for the opportunity guys.
JimBo Stewart: Love you guys. All of you, all you
listeners look forward to seeing
you here in front of yet. Let us know how we can serve you.
Jimbo is joined by the Bob's (Bob Bickford and Bob Bumgarner) in this EP on Servant Leadership. Join the guys as they explore leadership from the perspective of a three - legged stool.
Leadership Foundations * Personal: who is God shaping me to be? * People: how am I leading those God has given me? * Purpose: what is God calling me to do?
Leadership Action * Setting direction * Generating Commitment * Facilitating Change
Jump in and listen to the rest of this episode as Bob Bumgarner drops some great leadership wisdom applicable in your ministry, job and role.
Contact the leader in websites and branding, our parters at One Eighty Digital, are leading the way in helping churches connect with their communities in meaningful ways that truly convey who they are in an authentic way. Tell them you're a bootcamp listener.
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp, I hope you're ready for the next episode. And Bob, I hope you're ready for the next episode.
Bob Bumgarner: Yes, sir.
JimBo Stewart: both Bob's with me today, is always wonderful thing to have as many good bobs in your life as you can.
Bob Bumgarner: I don't know about that, but yeah, we'll start with it.
Bob Bickford: Jimbo. I'm just glad to be here. I'm a little roadway for moving daughter into college. her new apartment yesterday and I, I think I miss my calling in life to invest in real estate. In the college location. Men college apartments are a cash cow, bro.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, man. It's uh, I could, I could see, Bob Bickford, the landlord, just keeping those kids in line testing them.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. Yeah. I may or may not have smelled some herbal incense if you know what I mean, a Jimbo yesterday when we were moving some folks in. So apparently I guess all you have to do these days. You have to get some kind of [00:01:00] medical card and then you can. as you formerly would know Jimbo, I guess maybe you, I don't know what you call smoking weed, but I, what do they call?
What do the kids call it these days?
JimBo Stewart: I don't know what they call it these days. it's been a long time since I have partaken of the cannabis, but, we just call, we called it smoking weed, uh, smoking a joint, smoking a dooby, rolling a fat one. you got real big was a blunt. But past that was a long time ago. and
there medical marijuana
Bob Bickford: yeah. Kind of pre-Jesus and certainly premium. so
we're not endorsing
you know, we're not endorsing that We took, uh, we took a turn and went off in the ditch. I think jumbo,
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, we probably need to write this back and, and get back on the right direction today. We've got, great guest with us today. the other influential Bob in my life, Bob bum garner, grateful to have him as we continue to talk about servant leadership when it [00:02:00] comes to servant leadership. they're very, very few who.
Thought through it as much and about it as much as Bob Bumgarner. And so, man, I'm excited to have him on with us today. Bob is the lead strategist for first coast churches, formerly known as Jacksonville Baptists association. And, with the, with the great kind of, is it called I guess it's the thread, the motto slogan, thread of don't pastor alone.
loving to see. And here, what we get with that. We even mentioned it in our last episode, last episode, Bob Bickford, and I kind of just dipped our toes into, an understanding of servant leadership, what it is. And, a lot of this came Bob garner from a presentation that you sent me that I was looking at.
And, I was really fascinated with a lot of things you have in there. kind of just dove into the first question out of. Three legged stool that you have. the first question we dove into just a little bit was, who is God shaping me to be kind of the, the [00:03:00] personal side of it. This is part of a, a graphic you've come up with a, an illustration that we'll add it to our show notes of a three legged stool.
walk us just a little bit into, like, what are the three legs of that stool and why do, why do they each.
Bob Bumgarner: Yeah. So one of the things I found in as I worked with leaders, whether they were young leaders or, leaders that had a little bit more experience people were always trying to figure out, how do I get better at leading? And so through some research and through conversations, With folks. The thing that I discovered is that all of us have a leadership platform.
And what I mean by that is we, nobody hears us in a vacuum. They hear us based on. who we believe based on who we are, what direction we think we're going and how we treat people. So I call it the, the person people purpose, three legged stool. And, and so if you think about a three-legged stool, the, power of the illustration is that with the three legged stool, if one of the legs is shorter or missing, the stool becomes ineffective or less.[00:04:00]
and so you, we have to know who we are as a leader, we have to know how to value the people around us. And we need to know what God is calling both of us to do. So I, I actually think the three legs represent the great commission, you know, loving God, my purpose, loving my neighbor, loving those around me and treating them with respect and then valuing myself, or at least being self aware of how I impact them.
Bob Bickford: Bye. Bye. I love this, this, how you break it down in a simplistic form or fashion and. I think when you, when you were just thinking about the categories of leadership, in terms of personal people and purpose, those sorts of things, did you have to narrow that down from like, you know, John Maxwell has like 21 irrefutable laws of leadership and all of these others, like did you get it?
So boiled down to just kind of the essentials.
Bob Bumgarner: Well for me, two things I'm always trying to do with leaders is I'm trying to create hope and. And I'm not saying 21 laws is bad at all. I'm [00:05:00] saying I get overwhelmed with that. It might not make me hopeful. And so, and, and really, it, it all stemmed from me from Psalm 78, through 72, you know where it says he chose David and took him from the sheep folds, following the nursing use and brought him to shepherd Jacob, his people.
And then this little phrase, this, this. statement and he shepherded them with integrity of heart and skillfulness of hand. And so I saw those two things and I don't know why that those things came out, but it really had a real great commission correlation with me. But because it seemed like, um, skill or integrity of heart, really deals with character and skillfulness of hand deals with competence.
And so competence is what you do on your planet. Character is what you actually build your platform on. So it's not they're interdependent. You really can't. I mean, somebody with competence, who's a jerk is just not still follow worthy. when Greenleaf did his research in the sixties and came out with servant [00:06:00] leadership, he was really not just trying to be nice.
He was discovering that people will give you that you could pay. For their hands and their head, but if you wanted their heart and their volunteer attitude, you had to treat them differently. And so even though I, I'm not sure that Greenleaf was a believer, he really tapped into a biblical stream, if you will, when he tapped into the idea of servant leadership and how to treat those that are.
JimBo Stewart: With these three, led to the stool, personal people, purpose, do you know when one of those is unlevel and what would be the implications of, you know, an UN sturdy platform that you you're built on?
Bob Bumgarner: I think you, you know, internally, if you're self-aware whether or not you're. If you're overshooting the runway, or if you are, you know, say if you're preaching cream and live in skim milk, you, you see, you know, what that, what that is. loving people. You, I mean, the idea here is, and I can go deeper into this, but are you [00:07:00] using people or are you developing people?
Makaveli is the one who said the ends justify the means. Jesus never said that. And, so, you know, alignment with what we're actually trying to do of building people's important. And, so I think for me, like, I know I'm off kilter when, when I start feeling like the owner of things, instead of a steward of that.
When I, when I feel like the team is mine, when I, when I fear losing position, more than disappointing the father, you know, you know, in other words, do I really want first coast churches to be great because I want to be known as Bob did a great thing. Or am I really trying to please the father as I do that?
I think you can tell, well, to me, the greatest indication that your, your stool is not in a good place. Is how you receive feedback or don't receive feedback. Are you threatened, by feedback or is it, does it help you grow or you, do you feel challenged? with that, you know, one of the things that.
You know, you think it scripturally John the [00:08:00] Baptist think about being him and him saying that he must decrease in. Jesus must increase. I think that generationally, I think without a servant leadership heart, you're always suspicious of somebody that works on your team who happens to be, as you know, who happens to be good at what they do.
You, you know, you find yourself being people or those kinds of things. And so to me, those are some things maybe not exhausted, but. Some things that I think would be a part of, how I can tell if I'm off kilter or not.
Bob Bickford: someone's looking at developing in these particular areas, know what I've seen? I've seen a similar paradigm. We're talking about leading self, leading others, leading organizations, where there's this progressive nature of leadership that you learn it applies to your life.
Bob Bumgarner: Right,
Bob Bickford: Leadership of a few and then leadership of quite a few.
this is a little different in the sense that it has leadership. It has self, it has people, but it also has, component. Is there a linear path of development or is it [00:09:00] just like this circular alert? You're learning lessons in every single one of these, all of the time. And you're building really from the ground up rather than it's a, know, kind of a linear 1, 2, 3, or how would you unpack
young a
Bob Bumgarner: got this platform that you're standing on. and you're, you're always doing three things. You're always shaping direction. You're always trying to generate. And you're always facilitating change. Think about this for just a second. So Jesus, with just a few of his disciples in Matthew chapter four says, follow me on I'll make you fishers of men.
I think what Jesus does there is he fuses the great commandment and the great commission together. And so in. So he sets the direction currently you're doing this, but if you follow me, you're going to do that. He generates commitment by, by telling them. What will happen if they follow him, how it, how it works.
And then he actually spends the gospels facilitating the change, of those of those men. And so what I would say is the setting direction, generating commitment and facilitating change. Bob, it happens yes. At an individual [00:10:00] level and there's, there are certain things you do with individuals with that, but it also, that's what you're doing for a team.
And then when you're working with a, uh, an organization with like team of teams, you're still setting direction, generating commitment, facilitating change, and, and those mean very specific things for me. So, to me, setting direction means you're initiating the pursuit of purpose. What's next. If we're going to accomplish the mission.
I mean, even in your replant team, what's next that's, uh, that's the direction. and then you have to rank order those priorities. Somebody who's the leader or the directional team. They need to establish what those priorities are. That's what direction is. And then generating commitment means you have to have both a challenging and a supportive.
Environment, you, you know this, if, if you have really sharp people, they want a big challenge. They want to be set free to be able to pursue. They don't want to be micro. They don't wanna be micromanaged. And then facilitating change really is it's really the process of, implementing and then[00:11:00] evaluating and then adjusting.
And you just do that over and over again. So that, that's why I think. Three things is really helpful. What, Hey, Bob, what do you do on any given day, man? I can sh I am shaping direction every day. I am generating commitment toward the purpose every day. I'm facilitating change every day. And how am I? How am I undergirding that?
Well, I'm taking care of myself. I'm staying in alignment with those people around me being self-aware staying on God's mission.
JimBo Stewart: All right. So talk to us, break down those three at the base there, the personal, who is God shaping me to be people. How am I leading those? God has given to me and purpose. What is God calling me to do? does a listener who's listening to this going? Okay. Let's start is, is that we would start there. are good questions, resources, ways for actionable. Steps for someone to go, okay, this is how I'm gonna work on
Bob Bumgarner: So I think you would, I would, I think you'd start by taking an assessment like a disc assessment or Myers-Briggs or [00:12:00] whatever, something to allow you to ask the question. How does, who I am affect the room when I walk in do, I mean, I'm a high I with a secondary D and it wasn't until later in my life that I realized that if I'm not careful, I think I'm the smartest person in the room every time I walk in.
and so I've got to actually modulator that I've got to actually, so for me, I speak last, especially if I'm the leader. one of the things that I, that I also know to be true is that people buy into me as the leader, before they buy into purpose. So they, they judge the purpose based on how much self-awareness they see in me.
So, I mean, I don't mean to under spiritually. But reading the word, being in a, a group with somebody who, who like who's your truth teller, who can tell you, the, the truth about what's going on, what they see in your life. That's really the integrity. I think that is the integrity piece.
Bob Bickford: Bob, when you think of the leadership landscape [00:13:00] and, we look at the recent history, maybe the last five to 10 years, what do you think is the. Lacking in terms of leadership. If you were to look at just across our denomination, maybe leaders that do we know lacking and then
Bob Bumgarner: Well I think
I think what the most recent days show us is we have overemphasized competence. And we've under-emphasized character. And I think we've done that because character is so much harder to measure and we like, we like the fruit. We, you know, we like to see things and, and please don't hear what I'm not saying.
I think Jesus wants us to work hard. I think that he, I mean, I think anything that you would die for, he, you know, that this isn't a pass to get out of jail free card, but, but I do think we've, under-emphasized. Character, I think we've, I think we've under-emphasized relationship. And the reason why, I mean, for instance, I think when you think about don't pastor alone, what does that mean?
I think it means that I need people. I need relationships. I need reciprocal [00:14:00] relationships so that I can be a human being and not just a minister. I think it means that I need a tribe and I don't think my tribe and my reciprocal relationships are always the same thing. I mean, I need, I need to know my identity comes out of.
And I'm the research that I'm doing is showing that character development is, led by my identity. In other words, I know the kind of person I am. So I behave out of that. I need wisdom. So, I think that there's been this, I think America believes in the great man. And I think that, I think we're looking for a savior.
I mean, and I think we on the pulpit, I think we say it's Jesus. And I think we mean that, but I think when it comes to our own individual ministries, we hope that Jesus will help us be the, the, the great man where we are. And I just, I don't think that that's, what God intended and I think we're reaping the fruit.
Of that. And some of the men that are experiencing really difficult times I've poured into me personally. I mean that doesn't underestimate that doesn't undervalue what they did. It just means that [00:15:00] nobody that you are not the exception character, it matters. David had integrity of heart. And I love that because David was such a mixed bag.
Right. I mean, and yet he was, uh, uh, you know, one of the things that, one of the other reasons, if I can loop back for just a second, that I go back to the three legged stool is because I think if we're not careful, we think our platform is static and not dynamic. my platform of leadership next week could cry.
if I do stupid stuff. and one of the things that I don't like about when I had younger kids, I have kids that are in their thirties now, and I love that. But one of the things that I had when I was kids under foot, I had the constant reminder that dads you're human. You just showed out in a bad way for your ten-year-old.
I mean, I actually appreciated that. I have that accountability. but, and so I D I believe we need to remind each other that our platform is a dynamic platform. Someone has said [00:16:00] that, people, it's not a matter of people trusting you or not trusting you, they trust you to do what you always do.
And, and so if you're, if you're always unaware, they trust you to be unaware and that's, that's not a good thing.
JimBo Stewart: we talked about in last week's episode, a little bit of the difference that you brought out this presentation of authority and power. How does that relate to some of talking
Bob Bumgarner: for, for me the idea of that I have to be self-aware and I need to love people that I need to love God. That's kind of the governor on my power switch. One of the things that, that, that I learned early in Paris. Uh, when my kids were actually getting into middle school, I realized that if I didn't shift how I parented, if I was a power parent and dependent on power, instead of authority and influence that, ultimately I was not going to be able to lead my kids well, when they were adults.
And so I remember the year, it was 2004 in 2004, Tina and I [00:17:00] switched to a coaching model with our kids. It didn't, it doesn't mean we didn't have rules that we, but we switched away from. The power model and listen, there are times when power is, I mean, I want you to think about Jesus, Jesus. he, he told some people get behind me, Satan.
I mean, you know, he called he, there were times when he stepped into his authority. He, I mean his power and so I'm not saying, to me, the difference between power and authority or your most. Now I have been a part of a big of big churches and small churches. And I can tell you I've used power wrongly in both of those situations.
So it's not a big church thing, and it's not a small church It's a Bob thing. And when I'm trying to control things that I can't control a lot of times, power is where I will, I will come back, but we'll come back to. And so I, I really think the whole influence piece is, is this has a way of keeping us influencing instead [00:18:00] of using power.
Bob Bickford: Jimbo has used power tools in a wrong way. Bob, I don't know if you know that
ask them about a chainsaw.
we'll
Bob Bumgarner: I heard that on some
Bob Bickford: time
Bob Bumgarner: product,
Bob Bickford: probably one of my favorite all-time
JimBo Stewart: Oh, yeah, I look, I was in Colorado, not long ago for the, The non-oral conference with the Cal family of churches. And one night, and Bumgarner was there. We're sitting around a campfire at Jeff clus house in his backyard. and of our faithful listeners was, was there. and He around the campfire, he goes, all right. I gotta hear the chainsaw story in person. Like he goes, I've, I've listened to the episode. I just, I need to hear it in person. Right. And, and
Bob Bumgarner: the
JimBo Stewart: to him. It's like, so he
Bob Bumgarner: you, in,
in the previous episode, you talked to, you asked permission to use a sports metaphor. so let me ask permission to use a sports metaphor the three competencies for just a second. And [00:19:00] maybe, maybe this'll help shaping is really designing the scorecard. really saying what are those goals?
You know, golf could really be playing. With one hole, right? Just a really long golf course with one hole, but it wouldn't be nearly as fun. So there's a scorecard. You keep scoring all the places, but then generating commitment is really thinking of it this way, helping people want to score that's that. So in other words, helping people see who they are in the body of Christ, helping them want to score.
I'll actually say this. I actually think Jimbo has a superpower as it relates to this on our team. I think he is super good. At helping people want to score. And then the third thing on facilitating change, it's making scoring possible. I mean, really that's what this is really saying out of your integrity, out of your alignment of people out of purpose, how do we create a scorecard where people want to score?
And then as the leader, we remove the obstacles that keep them from scoring. I mean, honestly, [00:20:00] think about this. Isn't that the secret to revitalization. I mean, think about all the things that keep people from scoring. And when you sit in a room of people that have been in a dead church for a long time, they don't want to score anymore.
I mean, they, they it's been beaten out of them it's or whatever, whatever the reason is that, that, that desire, they don't know if they can score anymore. And so being able to give people hope and a next step, in other words, when you shape direction, it doesn't have to be a 90 day. It doesn't have to be a year direction or a three-year direction.
Sometimes I'm helping a pastor take the next seven days with hope is, uh, is a win.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, that's really good. I think cha changing the scorecard, removing the roadblocks, helping people. that they can actually get engaged in mission. They can start moving forward, loving people. The church can get healthy again, I think is, is really good. One, one last question that I would have is before we jumped on to record, you were talking about the difference between being [00:21:00] nice and being a leader and.
I don't know. There's a, I don't know that you put those two necessarily in opposition to one another, a lot of declined churches want a nice pastor who does nice things. They don't want to lead her. Can you speak to that of
descriptor? Ask be
do we get that idea?
And do we unpack
Bob Bumgarner: the
Yeah, One of the humorous
especially if you're a
to read through the gospels with
Bob Bickford: help the. church move
Bob Bumgarner: What is it that a servant leader can say to him? And G and Jesus Jesus said some pretty straight up stuff. and, and here's the deal.
You're not Jesus. So be careful. but at the same time, not being, I think it was bill ECM time ago, said not being nice for the sake of the gospel. th it really most churches that are ineffective it's because, uh, I can't say that sometimes. It's because we've been too nice. We've not been mean about the vision.
We've not been. About the, about the mission and we've [00:22:00] actually experienced mission drift or mission creep because we weren't stubborn, you know, about disciple-making. so, what I would say. B, no. What the direction is that you need to take, like making disciples, that's the goal, making disciples.
That's the great commission, but making them in such a way that you still love, God still love people and you still are. Self-aware I mean, this is the way that I like to look at it. You've got the great comm, you've got the great commandment telling us to make disciples of all nations. And then you have acts chapter one, that's kind of the tactical strategy.
You know, do it here, here and here. and so, I think their structure when it comes to it, I think that, you know, to, to your, to your point, nice. it's always right to be polite. It's always right to be kind. it's not right to be off of. And however, however you wrestle that to the ground is the answer.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think about it when, like, when we have, coached or [00:23:00] consulted with churches, especially entering into like a fostering relationship and they begin to write down the terms of what that agreement. partnership would look like there's always a temptation to be overly nice. And, so one of the things we've said is, be so clear that there is pushback.
Like if, if there's no pushback, haven't been clear enough. And it was probably is out of a desire
clear
Bob Bumgarner: if Yeah. I
would actually say Jimbo you've been clear enough and there's, if you've been clear and there's no conflict in the room, you need to go back and be clearer because clarity always brings conflict before and by conflict. I don't mean open warfare. It means somebody is going to ask the question.
So you mean this? Yep. That's what we mean. Yeah. I mean, Jimbo does it well when we do our 9 [00:24:00] 0 4 prep process and he says, Hey, if, if it turned out that you had to sell your building, would you be willing to do that? Well, that's clear. Um, and it, it always generates a, uh, an interesting response, but it's still, it's a great question for clarity.
JimBo Stewart: Hey, Bob, it's been great to have you on here with the. With the other Bob,
Bob Bumgarner: Thank you guys for allowing me to be
here.
JimBo Stewart: you know, we, uh, are always grateful, to be graced by the presence of two great bobs. Hey listeners, don't forget, to share this, if it's been helpful, send us questions. If you've got 'em, try out our fancy new search bar. If you wanna look and find things that we've talked about or favorite recipes, and we'd love to see you, hopefully we'll get to see you in person at the summit. By the time this comes out, registration will already be closed. but we know that many of you are already coming and we hope to see you in person.
If you are there, come introduce yourself to us. We'd love to meet you.
The boys are back at it again. This week Bob and JimBo are dipping their toes into a discussion about servant leadership. Stick around next week and they will dive even further in with the help of Bob Bumgarner. * Jesus came to serve – not to be served * As elders, pastors, and leaders we have been called to serve – to equip – to honor God and others * Robert Greenleaf writes “The servant-leader is servant first. It begins with the natural feeling that one wants to serve. Then conscious choice brings one to aspire to lead. The difference manifests itself in the care taken by the servant – first to make sure that other people’s highest priority needs are being served. The best test is: Do the served grow as persons; do they, while being served, become healthier, wiser, freer, more autonomous more likely to become servants.” * In his book, The Servant, James C Hunter defines servant leadership as “The skill of influencing people to work enthusiastically toward goals identified as being for the common good.” + Hunter says we lean toward power or authority in our leadership - POWER - “The ability to force or coerce someone to do your will, even if they choose not to, because of your position and might.” - AUTHORITY - “The skill of getting people to willingly do your will because of your personal influence.”
- Three questions we should ask ourselves
- Person – Who is God shaping me to be?
- People – How am I leading those God has given me to lead?
- Purpose – What is God calling me to do?
It's not too late to sign up for the Replant Summit in ATL, we'd love to see you there!
Are you currently revitalization a church? We'd love to hear from you. Drop us a line, leave your comments and help the discussion continue.
If your website needs to be revitalized get in touch with our great sponsors at One Eighty Digital. They can have you up and running in no time. Tell them you're a bootcamp listener.
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp, Bob. I hope you're ready for the next episode. I have been all over the place being Mr. Dad, Mr. Mom and Mr. Chauffer. Since the last episode my wife has, tragically broken her foot, in at least one place, if not two places, we're still waiting to see. and so.
When you break a bone, Bob, everybody asks, well, how did you do it? How did that
happen?
Bob Bickford: No.
JimBo Stewart: So my wife was at rehearsal. She's supposed to be in a play this week of Percy Jackson. And she's been working really hard for a long time, very excited to be in it. And it's literally as simple as this, she was standing there.
Her knee popped outta socket and she turned and broke her foot. That's it. That's the whole story.
Bob Bickford: Man. That's a, that's a story that is, I mean, that's a story in and of itself right there.
JimBo Stewart: yeah.
Bob Bickford: Usually it's, you know, I was climbing a mountain, I was para sailing. I was hand Glo. I was, you know, I was, you [00:01:00] know, doing an Ollie on the skateboard, you know, whatever, or kick Jimbo, you know, one of those, you know, but, well, I, I think the bigger question is how's she doing now?
How's she? Is she right?
JimBo Stewart: She's doing much better now. it was kind of a hard start there at first. We took her to the doctor and they put a knee brace on her to protect her knee from coming outta place and a boot on her foot to protect her foot till she can see an orthopedic surgeon. And, it was like her knee got worse and just like they have, you know, they put this knee brace on.
That's supposed to keep your knee from popping outta place. Like that's this whole design and it's. Infinitely worse. Like our knee popped outta place, like seven times in a matter of like 12 hours. And it's excruciatingly painful every time that happens. And so that's starting to freak me out. Cause I'm thinking if your knee's popping out with a medical device, literally designed by medical professionals to keep this thing from happening and now it's happening, something's wrong and my assumption was something's very wrong with your knee.
I didn't look [00:02:00] at the problem correctly. We talked to the doctor, the nurse had put the knee brace on upside.
Bob Bickford: all right. 1-800-INJURED. wife.com like go there right now. I think a big settlement is coming your.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah something. Yeah, man, we gotta figure that. But now that she's got the brace on correctly, she's doing much better. So she'll see an orthopedic surgeon, later this week and we will know more information.
Bob Bickford: well, I'm sorry that that happened to Andrea and, uh, that's a tough, tough go. And I'm sure it, it complicates life for you a little bit because you're, you're the sole driver. Meal maker, laundry dude, chief bottle washer, et cetera
guy
right now.
JimBo Stewart: Um, the whole, yeah, the whole thing, man.
Bob Bickford: in addition to carrying this podcast on your back, I mean, I just want, thank you for all you're doing for the us and the bootcamp in [00:03:00] life and, well wishes to you, Jimbo and Andrea.
JimBo Stewart: Well, good man. Hey, a couple updates on the podcast for our listeners that I want you guys to know about. one, speaking, overlooking things. We overlooked the fact that we did not have a search bar on our website. And so we called up our good buddy, at 180 1 good buddies at 180 digital and they fixed it real quick.
So now you can go to replant bootcamp.com and you can click whatever you want in that search bar. Like not only like, Hey, is there a specific topic that they've addressed specific guests that maybe they've had on that I want to know about, but we've often talked a lot about other important things like restaurants you should visit when you go to certain cities and, and you may, you may remember, like there was something called brothers tacos.
What city was that in? And then you can search that and it's
Bob Bickford: we should do some trivia. We, we need to do some contests in trivia. I mean, Um, I'd like to suggest a few, search terms, the number one search term that I would like to suggest is chainsaw,
JimBo Stewart: [00:04:00] Chain
talk.
Bob Bickford: chainsaw. Yeah. egg and a hole,
I think would be second one that I would say,
JimBo Stewart: Uhhuh.
Bob Bickford: and tractors, those would be three that I would contribute at this point, Jim.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah. Put those in. See what you find when you listen to those episodes. Here's the second update. I want to give everybody on the podcast recording platform that we utilize called squad. There is now an opportunity for us to do something called backstage. which means that when we record this, we could put a link out there where our listeners could join us live and enter.
They could enter stuff into the chat room and things like that. And we could make it a little more interactive. I'm not saying we're gonna do that every week, but just be on the lookout for when we decide one day. We've got the right topic. the right thing, like the one problem, the one solution to solve all your problems, podcast episode that will market it out there in such a way that will get people on.
And we'd love [00:05:00] to just be on the lookout. That's gonna come one day where we're gonna be inviting you to listen in live while we record.
Bob Bickford: And, uh, Jimbo. I'm a little disappointed. We're not putting that by behind a paywall. Are we behind
JimBo Stewart: no, no, no, no.
Bob Bickford: Concerned there for a minute.
JimBo Stewart: Well, Hey, look, let's dive into the topic for today. I wanna talk to you, the listeners about the importance of servant leadership. and today it seems like good leadership is really being questioned as to what that even means. Right? So I think for a long time, Even though we all wanted leaders with good character and integrity and with the right motivations, the prevailing kind of view of what a good leader is, has been determined almost entirely on their ability to get results and particularly results that are.
Easily measured, numerically. Right? So how, how good are you [00:06:00] at drawing a crowd? How good are you at, uh, fundraising? How good are you at getting, a social media of following? How good are you at some of those things? And we've talked about this a little bit with platform versus. Table leadership. But as we talk about, even, even in the platform part, cuz I wanna make sure we don't, we're not demonizing platform ministry.
We're saying platform, ministry has its place. and it's not the entirety of leadership, but even in platform, what does it look like in both of those to be a servant leader?
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm I think that's good. Jimbo. I think too many times we are, prone to swing to one side of the pendulum. You know, the pendulum swings one side all the way or the other. And I think what. What we are trying to dis to, uh, stress is the necessity for being, being a fully developed leader that exhibits through the spirit models, your leadership after Christ, et cetera.
And that's the challenge, right? And I think [00:07:00] sometimes when we take those surveys, It's easy for us to go, well, I'm all of this or I'm none of that. And too many times we let a, we let a manmade survey just kind of dictate to us an excuse for operating a certain way as a leader. So I'm glad you're bringing this topic up and I think it's gonna be helpful for the guys.
JimBo Stewart: Well, I think we have to, I mean, we have to recognize, right. Even. came to serve. You look at the famous kenosis passage of Philippians two. You look at even what he said. He said that the son of man came to serve, not to be served. And you look at the passages about what it means to be an elder, a pastor, a Bishop overseer, whatever term you decide to use there.
We've been called to serve and love and honor God, and honor others. As we lead.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. And specifically the Philippians passage says have this mind in you that was in Christ Jesus. And so I think that's really key for us is developing the mind and the heart and the actions of a servant leader really are. first and foremost, the biblical call that we have, and then this really is the most effective way to [00:08:00] lead a congregation forward.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. So there's a lot of people who have written about servant leadership. I've gotten to learn a lot about it under the tutelage of Rick Wheeler and Bob Bumgarner. Uh, the two AMS I've gotten to serve under here in Jacksonville, both of them love to talk about servant leadership lead like Jesus. Robert Greenleaf wrote, the servant leader is servant first.
It begins with a natural feeling that one wants to serve. The conscious choice brings one, brings one to aspire to. The difference manifests itself in the care taken by the servant first to make sure that other people's highest priority needs are being served. And I love this part of this quote, the best test as if of your, if you're being a servant leader, the best test is do those that you're serving grow as persons.
Do they, while being served. Become healthier, wiser, freer, more autonomous, and more likely to become [00:09:00] servants. That's that's how you know it's. So I love that. Look of not just what are your characteristics of a leader, but what is it, what are the people you're leading? How do, like, how is that fruit playing out in their lives is the best test of if you're a servant leader.
Bob Bickford: Most definitely. And I, I think if you're in a position of leadership long enough, you, you know, old axioms as you reproduce who you are, not what you aspire to, but what you actually are. And so if you've been part of an organization where the. A servant leader is leading and discipling. Then his, his church, his organization, his company, his family, they're all gonna model that.
They're all gonna embody that. And, and I think it's really, it's a great quote that just gets us down to and what am I producing? What am I. We're actually seeing in terms of freedom ministry. And here's what I wanna say to the rep planter, man, give yourself some time, right? The disciples that, were made decades before you got there.
If they're not servant leaders, it ain't gonna happen in a year. [00:10:00] Right. and particularly it might not ever happen in some of their lives. It might only happen with the new folks that you bring in. So I wanna give some guys a little bit of space and a little bit of grace too, to, to evaluate their leadership with a long view and, just a sense of patience as they cultivate a different type of culture and a different type of leader in their context and in their church.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think, I think patience is so key. I think that even plays out the patience and long term view plays out in the immediate, by not being in a
Bob Bickford: Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: there's lots of great books about that. you know, the unhurried leader. and unhurried life and all those sorts of things, but that idea, you know, ruthless elimination of hu John mark comer.
This idea of, of hurry is this urgency as if everything is up to you and that's a that's. That's a temptation as a leader to feel like, especially in a replant where you may be the only one taking initiative to lead for a while. it, [00:11:00] really starts to feel like, man, this is all on me. And, and so I have to hurry and, and get things done.
man, if you look at the timelines in the Bible, God never gets in a hurry.
Bob Bickford: Nope.
JimBo Stewart: And this, this is just be patient plot along. Get it done.
Bob Bickford: Yeah cycles. If we just looked at numbers in the Bible seven years, 40 years, 80 years, 120 years, you know, those sorts of things. I, I think that is a, there's a different pace. Absolutely. And obviously in scripture, and I would say this permission to make a sports analogy, gemba.
JimBo Stewart: Come on, do it
permission
Bob Bickford: All right. So we're, we're right around the corner from football season.
And so you're, uh, you're pulling for your tigers. I'm pulling for the Razorbacks. I am, uh, I'm hopeful for the Cowboys, but I am a fair weather knee jerk fan for the Cowboys. If, they throw one interception, the super bowl is lost, right? It's over. It's just the way its, I'll be pulling for the chiefs as well, you know, but I think sometimes a three yard gain is just as strategic as a 15 yard gain.
In the sense of, if you take somebody [00:12:00] who's a full back, a full back doesn't catch an 80 yard pass down the field, right. they just don't it's not who they are. What do they. Well, I get a three yard gain right up the middle. Maybe gets a first down. Maybe it gets some to the goal line. And I think some of our replants and our revitalization, a, a succession of three yard gains is probably a really good thing.
Right. And if you're in football and you get four, three yard gains, you know what you have Jimbo,
JimBo Stewart: what do you have?
you got a first down.
Bob Bickford: You gotta push down.
you know, so
there you go. Right. Just move the chains. And, and so I think some guys may just, just focus on it are the people this year, a little bit more like Jesus than they were last year.
And,
JimBo Stewart: So when you say, just move those chains, is that what Chris Tomlin meant when he added that line to amazing grace? That.
Bob Bickford: my chains are gone. I've been except. what he meant Jimbo. He.[00:13:00]
JimBo Stewart: All right. Let's move on. Let's move on. All right. Look, another book that talked about servant leadership, is James C. Hunter, called, has a book called the, servant he defines servant leadership as the skill of influencing people. To work enthusiastically toward goals identified as being for the common good.
and hunter goes on to say that we, we really in leadership usually lean towards getting people to do things either through our own power or through authority. And that it, we need to, we need to lean away from trying to do things in our own power, but in authority, that of the authority of the Lord.
And so here's, here's. Distinguishes those, he, he defines power in leadership as the ability to force or coerce someone to do your will, even if they choose not to because of your position and might. And so it's the, because I said so, [00:14:00] right. It's the, I'm your boss. I told you to do it. You just gotta do it.
Authority is the skill of getting people to willingly do your will because of your personal influence in their life. And, and so leaning more towards that authority side than power
Bob Bickford: Yeah, we, we see this dynamic all the time and especially in the church, we want to be people of influence, I think,
JimBo Stewart: mm-hmm and
Bob Bickford: you can influence people through power, but you don't get lasting. Results that way
only when only when the power is present. Do you get the people to.
So I think the authority is using that position that God has given you.
And, and we believe that God has called men to serve the church and he's equipped them. And if they've been, tested and they're. Vetted and they have the qualities of an overseer, an elder. Then they have the opportunity to use the authority that comes with that office to influence people for good.
Right. So that, uh, [00:15:00] people will, and I think the keyword that, that is used there is willingly, right? Not grudgingly, not because they have to. And I think we've, we experienced this everywhere we work and, and, you know, growing up and all your jobs and all your. Vocational experiences. And even some of your church experiences, the best ones are where people are there and they're they're there because they wanna willingly be part of the mission to meet the objective right now in an employee sense, you know, there's some compensation evolve, so you get a lot of willingness with the paycheck, but.
We work in a much more complicated situation with volunteers who, are church members who have a responsibility to their body, but they don't have an obligation in terms of the same sense that like an employee does. So
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
Bob Bickford: we have to use influence and, and I think that distinction's very important.
JimBo Stewart: I think about the episode where, I talked about the lady that was real upset in a business meeting. And so I went to her house, brought her some donuts because [00:16:00] she loved donuts and, sat at her table and just listened to her for a while and wrote down every issue that she had. And, and then at the end, I.
because she had, she had acted in a behavior in a meeting that really was, was not okay. Uh, after hearing her, I, I said to her, cuz I was pretty news pastor and I'm, I was, I'm fairly young, uh, younger than her like grandson. And so I, I, I looked at her, I said, Hey, would you allow me now to speak to you as some pastoral authority?
now I could have used the power that I have as pastor and just could have like, you know, nailed her, like, Hey, you showed your tail in that meeting and, and just like, let her have. but using now, and that's not my wisdom, I was coached well, to do that, if you want, if you wanna hear that story, you can use our fancy new search bar.
And if you just search donuts, I bet you that that episode will come up and so search donuts, and you can go listen to that, but it there's, there's [00:17:00] so much more you can accomplish. For good using that authority correctly, then just leaning into the power, dropping the pastor card, you know, Hey, I'm the pastor.
You gotta do what I say,
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I think there's false more. There's a false, excuse me, Jim, I'm having a hard time talking today. There is a force multiplier that needs to be, acknowledged in this brief story that you have just told, and that is donuts. Donuts are a force multiplier, bring donuts to a meeting and you got some force that's gonna be multiplied.
JimBo Stewart: I love it. Hey, three questions to ask yourself as you're leading. and so part of this, I got from a presentation by Bob Bumgarner on servant leadership. Three questions to ask yourself as a person ask who is God shaping me to be? I think it's a really important question and we can unpack these here in a second.
For the people that I'm leading, how [00:18:00] am I leading those? God has given me to lead and then three purpose. What is God calling me to do? And I wanna unpack those for just a minute. The, the idea of who is God shaping me to be, we've talked about this a lot of times, Bob. Sometimes, especially in hard, we've talked, we've talked about in reference, especially to hard times of, of asking what is the Lord trying to sanctify in me through this hard season as I'm going through this difficulty, but even in the good times, like, what is it in all that we're doing?
I think it's a, it's important, not just to see. The task ahead of us as a to-do list or an action list or a strategy, let me punch these, you know, punch list. Let me, let me get this stuff done. Let me, let me accomplish results. It's the, it's the old, it's the old, uh, are you, are you using people to build great programs are using programs to build people, and, just even asking, not only of them, but now you're asking of.
Am I doing this so I can be [00:19:00] numerically successful so I can feel validated in my work, uh, find my identity there. Or how is, how is God shaping me? How is God using this sermon I'm writing? How is God using this leadership effort? How is God using these things that are easy to celebrate, to shape me to become more like.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I, I think that is. An important question. And so I'm, I wanna, I'm wrestling with sort of a, a clarification or distinction maybe, perhaps. cause I, I think, um, I have worked at, uh, a church on a large staff and O and have the responsibility to oversee a lot of folks. And one of the things that was, uh, said often is we, we, um, We use ministry to get people [00:20:00] done.
We don't use people to get ministry done. Right. So there was kind of this, this distinction a little bit, but I think what actually was meant by the phrase, you know, we use ministry to get people done was, was an unhealthy employment, an assignment that was, of a particular nature that I don't think necessarily had a.
Sort of a divine sanctifying mission other than this was what I think should be done. And so I'm going to, this is what I think should happen in this person's life. And so I'm gonna put this person in this thing, in this activity in order to produce what I think needs to be done in their life now. I, I want to be cautious in saying I do believe that God calls us as leaders to, uh, to to strategize and pray together and to think through with others. what can [00:21:00] we do together in terms of ministry to accomplish the mission that God has given us here
and to do it in a way that brings glory and honor to him that that is something that's completely different than I think this needs to happen in this person's life. And so I'm gonna create this thing to make this happen in their life.
Does, does, are, am I making sense? Am I kind of making the distinction here a little bit? I just wanna be clear on that.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think I'm kind of tracking with you. I mean, it feels like somewhat the same idea there of, I think the thing we're trying to avoid is, seeing people as commodities. depersonalizing, right? where, you know, it's the old, um, I say old it's, it's the quote that kept coming up in the Mars hill podcast, the rise fall of Mars hill of, you can either get on [00:22:00] the bus or you can get run over by the bus
Bob Bickford: Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: and, the, you know, the, and, and, you know, Driscoll says the whatever of dead bodies behind the bus
and.
Bob Bickford: There's a high body count,
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, the high body like servant leaders are never gonna be okay with a body count, right? Like a servant leader cares less about the perceived successfulness of their programs and cares more about the spiritual development and health of the people they're leading.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I agree. And I think you have to have a, you gotta have a clear definition, a BI clear biblical definition of what health spiritual health looks like and spiritual maturity looks like. And I think the, the challenge in, in some of what we've seen in the past history of, you know, big blowups or big downfalls of, of some of the, the more prominent churches is, is it seems [00:23:00] like the mission.
Is just to get the ministry that they've defined done, and it doesn't care. It doesn't matter what the cost is to the people that are doing it. And so I think what we're saying is you've got a call to develop people towards maturity and Christ likeness and do that in a way that creates wholeness and health.
And you know, all of that stuff that would be a blessing to, to their life rather than just get some ministry that you've designed.
And, And, I think what I would add to that too, is, I think there's a level of, there needs to be a level of humility when we look at somebody in our congregation and say, I know, I know exactly what needs to happen and occur in their heart and their life.
Right.
I wanna be careful in saying that,
but I also want to have, some maturity and base my observations on. The fruit of the spirit, right? [00:24:00] And if there's, if there's not love, if there's not joy, peace, patience, um, gentleness, kindness, self control, all those sorts of things. Then we have a conversation, a longer conversation, and then I think helping to, uh, encourage them to develop those things, uh, in situations where the Lord would, would lead them to engage, I think would be important.
So I think there's a little bit of a distinction there, and I don't know if I'm, I don't feel like I'm speaking with it with great clarity, but I hope I hope people can read between the lines and kind of hear what I'm saying.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think so what I'm hearing you say is don't assume that you are the sole authority on exactly how someone needs to be developed.
Bob Bickford: Sure.
JimBo Stewart: Is that along the lines of what you're saying?
Bob Bickford: Yeah. And, and secondarily don't. Don't design or assign a program specifically to them based on your [00:25:00] assumption alone.
Right.
JimBo Stewart: Hmm.
Bob Bickford: So I think that's where I would, would want to be careful.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think that goes, I mean, it's one of the things we've talk about on here a lot. And I think it's so important. I, the idea of shared leadership, not just plural, not just plurality of, of leadership, cuz plurality of leadership is super important. But even beyond that top level of plurality of leaders like sharing leadership amongst others, It's we have to move away from, I mean, it's, it's the slogan right now of the association where I serve don't pastor alone.
And, and one of the things we talk about is don't pastor alone goes a lot of directions, right? Don't pastor alone means you need some friends that. Uh, that are pastors that are gonna walk this with you as, as brothers, as mentors, as mentees, like that needs to go all those directions, but it also needs to go.
And that you're not the sole authority at your church on everything. you need to lead well within the context that [00:26:00] you have and, and you most likely God has not given you such a supernatural gifted discernment that you can immediately determine. What everybody needs. Uh, and so that goes to the, to the other questions of how am I leading them?
Am I leading them in a way that, that follows the characteristics of Christ, the fruit of the spirit? Am I, am I leading them in a way that, that looks like I'm walking in love that I'm. Truthing and love that I am living that out in such a way that it helps people know Jesus better and fall more and love with Jesus.
And then what is it that God's calling me to do? Hey, I think we'll probably unpack this more over, uh, another episode or two, but, uh, think about in this as, as a boot camper, man, how are you? What is it God's calling you to do, and how is God using this to shape you as a leader to become more like Jesus, cuz that's what really matters more than everything else.
Why is change so difficult to accept? Especially by churches who are steeped in decline? We may need to consider how we're wired up and what we think. In this episode the guys talk about brain science, group think and what we need to know about it all as Replanters. Dial it up, sit right down and let us know what you think.
What do we need to know about Brain * Your experiences shape your brain and your reactions * Habits and Responses become hardwired into your brain * Your brain has a natural negativity (protective) bias * Thinking is contagious * Remapping a thought pattern is possible but difficult, time consuming
Church Application for Replanters/Revitalizers * Some congregants are fearful * Church traditions are hardwired in the congregations collective conscience and not easily disrupted * Congregations are hyper vigilant regarding potential threats to their existence * Remaining Members in a deeply declined church will likely have the same mindset * Changing the existing group-think is possible but will be difficult and time consuming
It's not too late to sign up for the Replant Summit in ATL, we'd love to see you there!
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp now in North Carolina at the beautiful campus of Southeastern Baptist, theological seminary Bible. I hope you're ready for the next
Bob Bickford: episode. Jimbo. I am ready, but I'm play and hurt.
JimBo Stewart: Play and
Bob Bickford: hurt. Yeah. Talk to me about that Jim bar. I was walking Daisy P this morning. Okay.
With Barb. And I got stung by a B in the Achilles.
JimBo Stewart: Oh, in the Achilles heel, in the Achilles
Bob Bickford: heel. That's rough. Um, so if, if you were watching you, would've had it. Would've been interesting. So. I am Daisy got the zoomies for those that if you have dogs or you don't, do you, do you know what zoomies are? I have no idea what a zoomie is when a dog just decides I'm gonna expend a lot of energy right now by running about and being excited.
Okay. My kids
JimBo Stewart: get that. Okay.
Bob Bickford: So you don't have 'em on a leash, do you? No. All right. Well good. So Daisy, P's got the zoomies this morning at the end of our walk, which is kind of strange because she usually is kind of tired at the end of the walk. She gets the zoomies, so she's just hauling around, just running around and she's, she [00:01:00] evidently Jimbo stirred up a pocket of bees that were on some Clover.
Oh. And while she's got zoomies, we're laughing about it. And then I step in the pocket of bees. and so I get stung by one of them. So Daisy's got zoomies, I start screaming and Barbara's like, what, what what's going on? What's going on? So you got this dog, that's going crazy. You got me screaming out agony, and then you got my wife.
Who's saying what's going on? So I'm playing a little bit hurt
JimBo Stewart: tonight. Yeah. I mean, I would've enjoyed watching it. I think from a. Oh, oh, the safe distance from the bees.
Bob Bickford: Yep. Yep. So here we are. Southeastern. Yeah. So what are we doing here at Southeastern? Well,
JimBo Stewart: we are speaking at the fourth annual AMS conference here at Southeastern Baptist, theological seminary at the invite of our great friend, the missiologist, the original, the original boot camp methodologist, ke yeah.
Dr. Keel and cook. And, uh, who's now like the boss man of the whole mission center and so excited to get to hang out with. Uh, we [00:02:00] got to eat some good seafood tonight with our buddy Walker Armstrong. Who's been on here, the velvet hammer and Josh Ellis, who, uh, painfully pointed out to us that he has yet to be a guest.
Well, he was on with Kelan. Yeah, he was on with Keele. He said that in count, cuz it was mostly Kela
Bob Bickford: talking, but well he was Keely's boss at the time. So he could have told Kelan to shut up. He could
JimBo Stewart: have, he still could.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, he can. he's at the union Baptist Associa. We really love Josh and. Had a great seafood time at, at, uh, what was it called?
Shuckers shuckers
JimBo Stewart: yeah. Yeah. And we had, uh, char grilled oysters, which I'll tell you, man. I was, I was curious and, uh, I was let down, it was, I have to agree. Uh, charcoal, oysters. Once you had 'em in new Orleans, it's really hard to have 'em anywhere else, but the shrimp and grits was
Bob Bickford: pretty fantastic. Yeah.
Stuff. Mahi was good. So for those of you, uh, foodies, uh, north Carolinian, pastors and, and, uh, SES guys, just check out uh shuckers. Yeah, give it a shot, not
JimBo Stewart: the charcoal [00:03:00] oysters, but go for everything else. yeah. And if you get a waiter named vent or Ben. Tell him, we said, Hey, , Hey, one of the things that, uh, we're gonna talk to these guys about that, or you're gonna talk to these guys about at this conference that I think connects to our previous episodes.
So our previous episode, we talked about how revitalization is always possible because with God, all things for possible, but it's not always probable mm-hmm . Um, and there are a lot of factors as to why. Is is a true thing, but one of the things I think that makes it not always as probable. Is an ingrained mindset that happens with us over time in kind of mission drift.
And, uh, there are things that happen in our brain, even with that in, in group think and how we, we all end up kind of aligning together. And as the mission drift happens, it becomes a corporate thing. And, and so there's kind of a mindset that has to happen. If, if a church is going to really see [00:04:00] any kind of significant renewal that's missing in a lot of churches.
Bob Bickford: absolutely. So this is part of the talk I'm actually giving tomorrow. So this podcast comes out on Wednesday. So, uh, tomorrow, Tuesday here I'll be talking. How do you have a leadership mindset or developing a leadership mindset towards revitalization or replanting? Now we'll be primarily talking to AMS leaders doms, but I think this really would be helpful for pastors as well to understand.
So, um, this all comes from, uh, originally what spurred this idea on, uh, from me Jimbo and thinking about change in brain science is one. I was doing a consultation for a church about five people. and, uh, bottom line, they, they loved our advice. They said, thank you. They said, we're gonna meet about it and pray about it.
and then they sent us an email back that said, thank you for explaining all of the courses of options and how difficult, uh, revitalization would be. We feel led after having a discussion on Sunday night that we're just gonna. Stay the course mm-hmm [00:05:00] right. So you have five members all over 75 plus. Yeah.
They're just Jimbo. They're just gonna stay after it. Yeah. And so I left that going. That's not the first time I've had that conversation, but what is it about the thinking of those church members and then what is it about the way I present, you know, future options that seems to be disconnecting
JimBo Stewart: well, and I think an important thing is for our listeners.
So many of our listeners, when we talk to 'em will share. It frustrations in the churches they're leading like this mm-hmm and they'll feel like they're all alone. Yep. So I think one thing is understand it's not unique to your situation. You're not alone in this. Uh, this is, this is a pretty prevalent problem in dying churches.
When you share this story, amongst people who are revitalizing churches, replanting churches, and people who are helping those people through cons consulting and coaching men, you could start to share war stories and spend all. Share sharing more stories from this. So what is it, what is it about the brain [00:06:00] that makes this so difficult?
Bob Bickford: Yeah, so I, I started doing some research and read a book that, uh, was super helpful book that you read and recommended. Uh, it's called the other half of church talking about how brain science and stagnation, uh, gets set into a congregation. And so doing that, doing some online research team, there's, there's about five things that I came up with in terms.
these are things that we need to know about how people think, and we need to know about what they do in terms of just brain and brain science. So the first one is this is not gonna be, this is not gonna be earth shattering, but I think it's gonna be said in ways that will be helpful for the application, for the leader, uh, in a replant or a revitalization.
The first thing is your experiences shape your brain and your reactions, right? So Jimbo, you and I both have things that we're afraid of. Mm-hmm and that we're fearful, fearful about, or we're hesitant. Around. So whatever that is for me, it's snakes jumbo. I can't stand snakes. I had a bad experience when I was a young kid fishing with my dad and [00:07:00] we were fishing off a, a rock dam and there were tons of water BNS around.
So I have always been fearful of snakes. It probably didn't help that my dad said like run. So I'm afraid of snakes, but there's a lot of things that I'm not afraid of. Right. And, uh, and people in churches are fearful. Of a lot of things. And so if you're working with senior adults, they're going to have had experiences, maybe previous revitalization or replant pastors mm-hmm
Some experiences they had with them, maybe a, a Dom or an AMS leader, maybe a church consultant that had brought some, you know, new ideas and it created a, a sense of fear for them. Right. So they're, they're afraid. Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: The, the church that I, I pastored, uh, was really scared of. Some sort of like charismatic takeover.
Oh. And it took me a while to figure out. And so one of them was telling me from, from their version of reality, from their perception of reality, one [00:08:00] of their pastors had grown the church and it had started to grow and it's heyday and really become a, a pre sizeable church. And then he went off to some conference and he came back and went full blown, charismatic.
That was their, but tambourines and banners in the field. Well, that's all they. So I did all they said is he went full blown charismatics. I was like, oh wow, what kind of conference did he go to? That would change him so quickly. Not an am conference. well, so I started to ask people who were there during that time, and here's all that happened.
He went to a purpose driven life conference and he came back and he rose, he raised his hands, oh my gosh. In worship. And he encouraged others to raise their hands in worship. And, but here's the deal, their interpretation to that was like that this was a really bad thing. Well, and here's, I had no idea. So I come in and I'm like super expressive Jimbo and I'm like raising my hands and swaying back and forth and clapping every once in a while.
And I'm probably giving him an aneurysm. Like they're scared to death. What is [00:09:00] this guy gonna do? And so their experiences had given them great fear and I didn't even know what I was walking into.
Bob Bickford: There you go. So, perfect example of the challenge that we face when we don't know the experience, so good dialogue, good conversation.
Here's another one, uh, that we need to know about how people process things, how the brain works, habits and responses become hardwired into your. Right. So Jimbo, we, we do a certain set of actions or we have a certain. Response. And we have that over and over it, it creates a groove or a neural pathway in your brain.
So you do it all the time, right? Mm-hmm , if you have a door at your house that sticks a certain way, and the first time you try to open it, you know, that you don't realize what's going on. And, and so finally you realize, oh, I've gotta push down on the doorknob to open. Right. Yeah. And that gets said in your brain.
And so when you walk over to that door, you don't even think about it anymore. You just push down on the doorknob [00:10:00] and open that up. Like, for me, when I'm visiting my mom, which I did recently, she has a, a small car. And so I have to, because I'm a taller guy, there's a certain way they have to hold my head when I get in that car.
Mm-hmm right. So here's the deal. Churches have the same people in churches have the same kind of response. To, uh, Sunday morning or worship or guest preachers or the Dom who comes to visit them and have a meeting with them, they have a certain response that just becomes part of their history. So the, the challenge is that your repeated habits and thoughts just get set in your mind.
And so it's really hard to break out of those things. There was
JimBo Stewart: an article. Uh, I was just remember, as you were saying, Uh, they came out several years ago called change your die. And it was a medical research study on when people had major heart issues and had bypasses and they went to the doctor and the doctor [00:11:00] said, look, your is bypassed.
But if you don't change your behavior, you're gonna die. Mm-hmm . If, if you don't change your eating habits, things like that, you're gonna die. So they started to study. How many of them actually changed their behavior? 90% did not. Yeah. 90% said how to bypass. This has gotten serious. I, I hear you clearly. If I don't change my habits, I will.
and they just kept eating the way that they were eating.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. Before people like them some long John silvers. Yes, sir. .
JimBo Stewart: Yes, sir. And, and so it just, it stays with, I mean, it's really, really hard mm-hmm to, to break habits and, and
Bob Bickford: rhythms. Here's the next one? Your brain has a natural negativity bias or a protective bias.
So we want things to be stable. We want things to be predictable, even those who like a lot of change, want it within a certain amount of parameters. Yeah. There's every, there's something about us that when there's a new stimulus, [00:12:00] there's a new idea, a new thought, a new way of doing something. We go, I don't know, man.
Like, I, I just want things to be the way they are because we crave stability. Right. And it represents something for us. And so I, I think one of the things that is very true about a declined church is there it's the same. It's been the same for years and years and years. And so if a new pastor's listening, a new, a new boot camper is trying to bring some change in.
He's just gotta. That, that change, whatever it is, it could be something very positive. It could be viewed as something negative. And then here's the next one thinking is contagious. So one of the research articles that I read said that if we are around happy people, we tend to be happy for around depressed people.
We tend to be depressed and it went into health habits. If you are a person who struggles with eating and you hang around with people who struggle with eating, then you're all gonna struggle with eating because our thinking is contagious. And I've sat in a, in a [00:13:00] meeting with, uh, folks in, in this meeting with this church that I, I had spoke about when we were asking this simple question of, Hey, how would your church, if it had kept up.
The times and the community and the changing face of the community. If you were reaching young people today, how would your church look different? Hmm. The majority of those folks could say how they thought the church would look different if they had stayed, you know, initially active and were reaching young people and kids and families.
But when they listed out all of those things, they didn't like. Yeah, they didn't, that's not the way they wanted the church to be. Yeah. Right. And so that thinking had become contagious within that church.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think it's so difficult and we don't need to underestimate how hard that is for them. I, I would reference back to, we did the episode on the emotional cycle of change.
I think that would apply to this part of the conversation that we're having. Um, [00:14:00] and so I, I would go back and listen to that and think about that. But even something I said a lot of episodes ago, Think about little things in your life as they change and how they frustrate you and think about how that, that grows exponentially as you get older.
And I was telling you recently, Bob, there's a, there's a monthly pastoral cohort. I go to in a, in a church in our city and, uh, it's a life giving moment for me every month and I love it. And I have this pattern of there's a local coffee shop right across the street from this church. So I usually go about an hour, two hours.
Go sit down and read and do some work and just have a little time to myself with a good cup of coffee. And then I walk over to the church. Well, a couple months ago, I go for my cohort meeting and the local coffee shop is closed. And I was surprised at how much that upset me. Like that really frustrated me that my coffee shop was like, did they not know the rhythm that I have monthly?
I mean, surely my monthly business was enough to keep this [00:15:00] place open and, and they. Did not care. They disregarded all my needs and they shut down. Absolutely. And it really frustrated me, but I try to hold onto moments like that on purpose and think. I was kind of frustrated with that, but what if every store I love has closed or changed and every process of how you do anything has changed.
And the only thing constant in my life were Sunday mornings. And it was like a refuge for me. Like it was like my safe place, the one place where everything stayed the same and all of a sudden, some guys coming in here and telling me we gotta change everything. Yeah.
Bob Bickford: That's definitely hard. Absolutely.
Absolutely. Jim Jimbo, was this after you turned 40 or was this before you turned 40? This
JimBo Stewart: was before, shortly before 40.
Bob Bickford: Okay. Yeah. All right. Well, it just gets worse when you get older
and I have to turn the radio down while I'm trying to find the directions. So from the
JimBo Stewart: GPS, [00:16:00] all knows my shoulder's been hurting since the day I turned 40, but .
Bob Bickford: Yes, I hear it. Here's the last one, uh, in thinking about what do we need to know about the. uh, we talked about the neural pathways. We talked about ingrained thoughts that just are repetitive.
Uh, and they just get stuck in our minds. Here's the, here's the truth. Remapping, a thought patterns PO is possible, but it's very difficult and it's time consuming. Mm. Right. So if you've ever tried to change a habit, if you've ever tried to form a good habit, you'll know that that if you have an ingrained habit, like let's just say, you know, um, Jimbo years ago, Um, when I was very young, I used to enjoy a good nacho plate at the end of the day.
Right. Okay. Now, um, you know, just get some cheese, some shredded cheese, get some jalapenos on there, get some good tortilla chips and I would watch, you know, the news and then Seinfeld and I would enjoy. What my kids affectionately termed as the nightly nacho, the nightly nacho nightly nacho . [00:17:00] I loved it, but Jimbo, the nightly nacho started not loving me.
Yeah. I started, I, I, I crossed that threshold of when there the length size of your pants and the way size when, when they're the same, you're still okay. But when the way size. Larger than your length in your pants, you might need to reduce the nightly nacho. I don't know. I don't
JimBo Stewart: know that my waist size has ever been
I dunno if that just means I'm fat or I have long legs or both,
Bob Bickford: but you're just sturdy, Jim, but you're. Hey, so here's, here's some research in London, they did, uh, a research paper and they said this and this, this might not encourage our boot camp listeners who are working with, uh, churches, but it said this, that it takes on average, about 66 days.
Of repetition to form a habit, right? Which changes a neural pathway. Uh, but that can vary from person to person. And so some people [00:18:00] Jimbo can change habits in little as 18 days. And others may, may take as long as 254 days of repetition right
JimBo Stewart: now in pastoring. And this sounds like a joke. This is a legitimate question.
Those 254 days, is that 254 Sundays? Or is that 254 consecutive? Cause I feel like changing the habit requires some consecutive things. And so like, I, I hear that. I think that's four years worth of Sundays. I mean, and if you think about it, sometimes that's how long it takes for some people. I wonder, I mean, I, I say that it sounds kind of funny, but legitimately is that like 250 Sundays?
Like it's gonna take you yeah. 250 Sundays to get people to change.
Bob Bickford: Well, possibly if you only use the pulpit as the, there you go. The prime motivator. So there you go. And we're talking about table ministry and platform ministry, right. So you've gotta have both, right? Yeah. And so this is, this is really key.
So, um, man, it's [00:19:00] just gonna take a long time. So I wanna say this in, in. To, to our boot campers one, it's gonna take a long time. So you should be posi like, feel like, okay, like that's good news. It's TA it takes a long time to change, which is, which is good news, but it's also bad news, especially if you're impatient and your pace preferred pace of change is, is, uh, a lot faster.
So. How do we make church application of all this brain stuff? Well, let's look at a couple simple things. First is you just need to know that some congregations are fearful, bad experiences get stuck in the mind. And so they may be feeling frustrated. And I think your illustration about being charismatic, being afraid of charismatic takeover and yeah.
They just perceived your exuberance in worship as something that could be what they did not want to experience again. Yeah. Another thing is church traditions are hardwired in the congregation's collective conscience. And they're not easily disrupted mm-hmm, so tradition, whether that's a Christmas thing [00:20:00] or an Easter thing or an outreach thing.
Um, maybe they have a, a pastor who preaches a, uh, a particular way and so, or does a particular kind of ministry. And so they just think, well, You're a pastor. You should probably do that too. And it may something that's not in your skill set or something you're not passionate about. And it may be an expectation.
That's just, there's a hardwired thought. Yeah. So that can be a challenging thing. Another thing is that the congregations are often hypervigilant regarding potential threats to their existence. Right. So man, every time Jimbo, again, going back to the, the, one of the fears that I've had lifelong is snakes.
Like whenever we're out in the woods, whenever it's fall and the leaves are on the ground, whenever I'm taking wood out of the, the place where I stack it to burn it in my fire pit, I'm always hyper vigilant. I'm like, you know, moving CLO, moving, careful looking and just being very cautious churches the same way.
They're, they're gonna be hyper vigilant to, [00:21:00] to something. Disrupts a preferred status quo, which they don't sense necessarily as a status quo, but they, they see it as something that is stable in their mind. They.
JimBo Stewart: A lot of 'em I've seen in their mind are they feel like they're protecting the church. Mm-hmm they like, they're protecting the church from you coming in and changing everything.
And then, and then leaving, like they're part of their fear is that you're gonna come in, do things just because it's new and, and cool in your mind. And there's not real deep strategy or, and, and conviction behind it. And then you're gonna. Move to something else new once they get used to that. Yeah. And so they feel like they're protecting the church by going, no, I'm not gonna let you do this.
Mm-hmm and I'm gonna, I'm gonna be the gatekeeper and protect this church.
Bob Bickford: I think that's a, and, and some there's some of that mindset's not bad. No. Right. If you're just trying the new flavor of this and that. Yeah. And trying to, to, you know, just shake things up. Yeah. If that's not just perception,
JimBo Stewart: if that's reality.
Then that's, that's not a good
Bob Bickford: [00:22:00] move. No, no. So you do need to have thought and strategy and you need to thought carefully and critically about any changes that you introduce, not just change for change state. Um, here's another one. The remaining members in a deeply declined church will likely have the same mindset.
You know, churches, families start to think alike. Mm-hmm churches start to think alike. And so here's a reality that makes this one very D. Most of the folks who are willing to try new things and try to cover some new ground in terms of ministry application, they may not be in the church any longer. They may have grown frustrated and they may have tried, and they may have realized I we're just not gonna change our mind collectively as a church.
And so they may have left. So what you're left with is a group of people who think alike just alike. Mm-hmm about whatever it is that is. That could be happening in the church. So the last one I would share is changing the existing group think is possible, but it's gonna be really [00:23:00] difficult and it's gonna be time consuming.
Here's something that I struggle with Jim. As a person who spends time around the table with churches that are considering their future. One of the things I wanna do is I, I just want to go in and say, you know what, like here's the charts and graphs. Here's your trend lines. Here's your history. I did some surveys here.
Here's some of the things that you guys talked about in your history that are painful. Here's some opportunities that are ahead of you in terms of the demographics. And there are people to reach around, you know, uh, in your community, all those sorts of things. And I just wanna lay all that before them in a meeting.
Maybe two meetings, Jimbo. Yeah. And I'm ready for them to go. Oh my gosh. Thank you. Right. Thanks for showing up, like thank you so much for giving us all that helpful information. We are ready to do whatever it takes to help this church move forward. It's not usually how that goes. Uh, no, it's not how that goes at all.
so . So you gotta ask yourself, you know, what do you do? And, and I'll just share this one, [00:24:00]one final application, um, with, with everybody, when you are spending time having a conversation with a church, or if you are spending time with your members, trying to lead them to a new direction. Here's what you've gotta understand that a transformational leadership approach to a stuck mindset has to be informational, right?
Just like the things that I said a, a few minutes. but it also has to be relational. Mm-hmm , mm-hmm, informational and relational help a process become transformational because most of us that's good. Most of us will process information through relationship. And so I think this goes back to the, uh, the, you know, change or die article that you wrote.
Yeah. It takes somebody. who is close to you to simply say, man, I love you so much. And I care about you so much that I really want you to consider making these [00:25:00] changes because in a health situation, somebody say like, we don't wanna lose you. Yeah. Too early. Yeah. Right. And they probably don't just have to say that once.
Yeah. They have to say that more than once and it can't be, Hey, don't eat that fried. Lay off the cheese there a little bit, buddy. Hey, eliminate the nightly nacho. it's gotta be some conversation or some multiple conversations that connect with them relationally and say, man, I love you. And I don't think we're done.
And I think the same thing with churches, we've got to be able to say that, Hey, we love you guys. Yeah. And we don't think you're done. And so let's have a conversation about what God has in store for your church's. Amen.
JimBo Stewart: That's a good word. Um, man, we'd love to hear how you guys are applying that and working through that as well.
Uh, hit us back up and give us some feedback on that. As we all continue to learn together, there's another couple of weeks that you could sign up for the replant summit. [00:26:00] Uh, August 29th and 30th in Alpharetta, Athena headquarters, Bob and I will be there, uh, as well as some other, really, really great speakers this year.
Uh, Bob and I aren't speaking, but we're, we'll be there hanging out and we we'd love to meet you if you're there. Uh, come introduce yourself to us. We'd love, love to know that you've been listening and that it's been helpful. And as you process, uh, man, just this wealth of wisdom that Bob has dropped on us today.
Uh, let us know your thoughts. Thanks.
The Bootcamp guys are back, discussing the realities of Church Revitalization. In this EP they break down the idea that it is possible to see a church revitalized but it is often not probable. * It may be wrong to assume that revitalization is the best option * Churches often will choose the revitalization option when they want to avoid making the necessary radical changes * How can a church determine if they should revitalize? + Confirmation from the word of God + Affirmation of the Holy Spirit + Unity among the Body that God is leading the church to chose this * Church revitalization requires hard work-Pastors and leaders do their part, God does his part.
Are you currently revitalization a church? We'd love to hear from you. Drop us a line, leave your comments and help the discussion continue.
If your website needs to be revitalized get in touch with our great sponsors at One Eighty Digital. They can have you up and running in no time. Tell them you're a bootcamp listener.
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp, live from Alpharetta, Georgia here, getting to hang out with all of our other Nam staff that's right for the week. And, uh, we gotta be away from our families and our puppies and our bunnies. . But we're here serving you the boot campers, because we love you.
Bob Bickford: We are so excited to be, uh, face to face is one of those few times in the years that Jimbo and I get to, uh, spend some time actually in the same room.
And, um, this is ground zero for the COVID outbreak at the replant summit. Yes. Of, uh, 2021, I believe last
JimBo Stewart: was it last year? Yeah. Yeah. The summit last year when yeah, Kyle and you mm-hmm and then I got handed. Everything and you just left
Bob Bickford: he was like, I committed a crime. I had to leave quickly. Oh, Kyle Biman was patient zero.
And interestingly enough, Jimbo, [00:01:00] Kyle's not here because you know why he was, he's got exposed to go. So he's quarantined him. And, uh, we miss him, uh, being here, but, uh, here we are in the same hotel where I. Kyle spent about a week and a half maybe. Yeah. Uh, locked in a room and,
JimBo Stewart: uh, I think he's probably grateful to, it's a nice hotel.
Oh, be. But he's probably grateful to not be in this hotel again.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. And this hotel, Jim, but is it, is it this hotel where, uh, the replant summit participants are gonna be staying
JimBo Stewart: in this? Is it? Yeah. All right. This is, and so just so you know, uh, if, if, if you are one of the ones that got a free hotel, those are gone by the way.
Yep. Uh, then this is the, the Avalon. Alpharetta is, is most likely where you'll be staying and it's man, it's really nice. They give us a sweet RDE. Yeah. Uh, and so you, you're gonna feel like you're living in luxury.
Bob Bickford: So for those of you who show up here and you see the swans, and this is, this is a high end area, Jim, it is, there's got like Tesla and a Mac store and like Lululemon and like all of these other places that I had no idea what they sell, but [00:02:00] they're high end.
Yeah. Just so the, I want the. Listener to understand it's cheaper for us to house people here because of the deal we get yeah. Than down the road at the genie. Uh, Name brand rec I want recognized hotel where you think I'm gonna save some money by going there. Yeah. It's cheaper to do it here because we get such a good contract.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. They give us such a good contract. So, uh, I mean, I'm looking forward to seeing guys at the replant summit. It actually, won't be too late for people to sign up. If they're listening to this podcast, uh, the day it goes out, um, we got a few, couple weeks more that you can register for the replant summit.
And we'd love to see you there. We've got, uh, close to 200 registered right now. And, uh, looking forward to seeing everybody, for sure. Great
Bob Bickford: breakout for the wives and yes. Uh, so we're super pumped about all of
JimBo Stewart: that, man. Let's talk a little bit today about, um, So we've talked about difference between replanting and revitalization.
We had a church planter on talking about the difference between those [00:03:00] things. Uh, one of the common issues that we see, uh, you and I both as we're out working with churches, and as we have seen from others that are serving with churches, uh, sometimes we assume that revitalization is always. The right option and not replanting.
Like, it seems like it's hard sometimes for churches to recognize when do I need to really see that I need, we need to be replanted versus revitalize. Sure.
Bob Bickford: So kind of an analogy is. Uh, diet change versus heart surgery, right? Mm-hmm so to speak. So a little less salt on the French fries, not, not as much gravy on the, uh, what's that egg in a hole, or what is that one saying?
There's no gravy on your egg in a hole talked.
We can see, I thought,
JimBo Stewart: if you put gravy on your egg at a hole, you probably
Bob Bickford: got issues. All right. So anyway, but it's like, most people [00:04:00] want to choose revitalization because it's the least invasive. Yeah. Right. And it's we still can do it ourselves. We got a shot. So one of the things I will say to, to a church is, and because invariably, they say this well, Jesus, didn't he say that all things are possible.
He did. He, he said it. He said it, but here's what I say to them. Hey. Um, all things are possible, right? Revitalization is always possible always, but here's the key sometimes it's just not probable. Yeah. Possible. But not always probable. Yeah. And, and Jimbo. I was consulting a church a couple of weeks ago, um, in, uh, south of St.
Louis, a church that lives in a village. So in, in Missouri, there are, you know, towns and cities and villages are kind of these unincorporated, like a group collection of houses. And so this was a, a very rural, uh, congregation Jim. They were down to five people, the pastor and his wife made up. Two of the five, [00:05:00] a long time church lady, and then another, uh, couple that had moved in, they just lost two, uh, parishioners to, or congregants to death.
Like they died. And, uh, so five people hanging on to, to, uh, try to see what they could do. And so we. Went through the process of kind of looking at their data and examining their context. And we came back with a conversation and said, look, um, you probably need a partner to come in here. Yeah. But like Reva they're they're of the age where they can't drive at night, they can't walk to do visitation.
They can't do all the things to reach their community that a church might do. They have just a little bit of money in the bank and they have people who don't attend the church. Sponsoring them basically sending money in to keep this church afloat. Yeah. So is revitalization possible? Yeah. Yeah, it's possible.
Is it probable? No. And so I think that the hard part for me is, and for a lot of churches is coming to understand what [00:06:00] does that really mean for us in our context?
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think of, so I was just reading, I'm reading through experiencing God book right now. Uh, Henry and Richard Black be and Claude king and, uh, on Monday mornings, my wife and I do a Facebook.
Kind of live to talk through a book and that's the one we're doing right now. And the one we did this week, it tells the story of when Henry felt called to move from Los Angeles to Saskatoon, to this church with 10 people. And, uh, they not only wanted to see that church come back to life, but wanted to plant new missions all over Canada.
And, and it's really this incredible story in the chapter. And I thought about even this conversation, um, with that, and part of me was like, You, you could read that and you could go, well, this is, this is what we're gonna do. Right. And, and man, I, I would love to see that happen, but you also recognize, like there's a reason that Henry Blackaby was able to then write a book.
That became like world renowned for, for generations.
Bob Bickford: and let's not [00:07:00] forget this fact he's Henry
JimBo Stewart: Blackaby. Right. That's what I was saying. Like, this is, this was a unique scenario. Yeah. Right. And, um, and so I was thinking about this situation the other day of how do we, as, as we were talking to a church, Because I'm an internal optimist Bob.
And so there's a part of me. That's always like, man, let's just go for it. Like I, that's just always my inclination, like, sure. I don't know how we're gonna make it work, but let's make it work. and let's figure it out. Um, And so I started asking myself this question, cuz, cuz even with that, with that mentality, when you say, well it's possible not probable, that kind of even guides me to go more than let's make it happen.
Like yeah, you said it's you said it's possible. You just said it's not probable, which means it'd be even cooler if it happened. So let's do
Bob Bickford: it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you are a different kind of leader. Right. And, and this is, I think goes to the heart of, of what we're um, At least highlighting as, as a reality, right?
Yeah. So, [00:08:00] um, when, uh, when we were consulting a church, another church, a different church, um, There were seven people in the church. Two were the pastor and his wife, all senior adults. They all did not live in the area. They came out from way outside the area, into the city and, and were part of the church.
And so we met him at the Panera bread company in St. Louis. We just called the bread co. So we rolled in there and the guy had one of the biggest three ring binders I had ever seen in my entire life. And he had printed page after page of blog posts, Facebook posts. Leadership church leaders, articles, all it's, anybody's written on revitalization.
He had printed it off and put it in the notebook. And so he just starts turning pages and flipping like, it's a, that gets a playbook, like an NFL kind of playbook. Yeah. And he's like, okay, well, well we swept left that didn't work. Yeah. Yeah. Here's what we're gonna do. So he just started lining it up and I'm like, I'm like, Hey brother.
So I ask him, you know, how many people are in your church, what's average age, et cetera, you know, all those sorts of [00:09:00] things. Do you live in the community? Know, do you know your community? No, not really. And I just, you know, I just said, Hey bro, like you are trying to run NFL plays and you've got like maybe a, the, the resources you have and the people that you.
Are not able to run those plays. Mm-hmm like, you just can't do it, right. Yeah. Because, cause they can't get out in the community and visit, right. Yeah. They, they don't live there. They don't know those folks and, and mean they could, but physically some, most of them couldn't do it. Right. And so I, I think they're.
There is a place where you have to, to look at some reality. And again, you know, I'm thinking, you know, well, Jesus and the fish and, you know, it's like, we just give him our little and all that kinda stuff. Yeah. Which is a hundred percent true. But Jimbo, I don't think that there are many people who are down to a state of like critical decline where it's just a handful of folks that can turn it around.
I, I think it is possible, but it's just not
JimBo Stewart: [00:10:00] probable well, and I would say is, look. If the holy spirit makes it really clear. And in the same chapter that Blackaby introduces this story, he talks about the importance of not just going off of your gut. Yeah. He talks about if we're gonna follow God's will there's a few things.
We need one. We, we need a prompting of the holy spirit. We need it confirmed in scripture. And when it confirmed with wise counsel. Okay. That's that's the three things that black CBE kind of emphasizes in this chapter? Well, it, it got me think. Because I thought, what is a biblical story of, of us kind of assuming and go in the wrong direction.
And I don't want to use this analogy cuz it's offensive to use this analogy. I think
Bob Bickford: uhoh listener warning
JimBo Stewart: but the, the story that came to my mind is Ishmael. Okay. Right. So, so Abraham and Sarah, I have gotten a promise from God that they will have descendants that. Or more than the, the [00:11:00] stars in the sky, but they're getting old and, and they're realizing the probabilities are decreasing, but so they come up with their own plan and here's the thing.
Does their plan technically somewhat accomplish the beginnings of a goal? Kind of, I mean, it produces an offspring, but God's very clear that this was. How this was what, like this, this, there was a, there was a right way to do this. Yeah. And they jumped ahead of what God wanted and assumed that they had a way to figure out how to do it.
And then the other one I think is, is Moses striking the rock and just keep doing the same thing. And, and maybe it's gonna work the reason, I think maybe it's offensive. Like, I mean, it's a really messed up situation. How Ishmael comes to be. , but it's kind of messed up when we ignore wise counsel and we just go off [00:12:00] our gut and we just go, well, then, you know, it's, it's like we've left it completely in, God's like on God's responsibility to revive this church without us having any part of it.
And it's one thing to put things in God's hands, which as we should and put 'em at the feet of the cross, but ever since. Adam and Eve were created, God has always chosen to work through the obedience of his people. Yeah. And, and so the question I think we have to ask is not even. How probable is. This is, I mean, is, is God, is God giving us a, a direction here and, and is God called us to, because if God says, Hey, Henry Black could be type, guy's gonna show up and we're gonna see God do unbelievable things.
And you've heard that clearly, then man, didn't do it, but I would not March into the red sea, just assuming God's gonna split it. Unless God said, Hey, I need you to walk into the red sea [00:13:00]and I'm gonna take care of you. All right.
Bob Bickford: So counterpoint to that, right. Let's hear it is, um, we tend to spiritualize a lot of things.
Yeah. Right. And so fir first and foremost, I don't think we could ever roll into a church. And presume to know as an outsider who participates minimally in interacting with that group of people. Yeah. And their leaders, what God would be saying to them. Right. Yeah. I think that'd be, that'd be a mistake.
Yeah. Right. But I think we do have a, a experience and background to be able to ask probing questions. And to make observations about what we see. Yeah. Right. And so I think the congregation sometimes congregations and leaders sometimes over spiritualize their decisions by saying, well, the Lord is doing some things.
Okay. What is he doing? Mm-hmm [00:14:00] right. But we had a family that visited, you know, Last week or three months ago. All right. Well, did they stick around? Well, no, but we had a visiting family three months, so I think the Lord is doing something. Yeah. Well, I wanna be very careful to, to, to speak either in, in affirmation of that or contrary to that.
But I, I think the three things that you highlighted that the, the confirmation of the word of God, the holy spirit in the community of faith. Yeah. Believers, like that's really key. Yeah. Right. And so you can, you know, you can go on that for a long time believing, and, and the other thing too is, is the guys who, and I made a tweet this, uh, I, I, I had a tweet made a tweet.
What. Tried to tweet you tweeted. I tweeted, sorry. Yeah, I think you just say you tweeted and I'm getting old Jimbo that's alright. Okay. Um, double Nicks. Yes, double Nicks. Um, so I tweeted this week about, uh, uh, Some [00:15:00] people just think you just get right. You get the right leader and then everything's gonna turn around.
Well, there's a, there's not a single source solution to a church that's been in decline for decades. Yeah. Right. There's multiple issues. And so you need more than a leader. You need more than just a ready church. You need more than the right context. You really need the work of God. Yeah. And so, so we also see that there has to be a humility in the body.
To go before the Lord and to look honestly at where they are. Yeah. And maybe where the Lord is leading them, but also to do an honest evaluation of, of what their level of obedience and faithfulness and surrender, uh, is for the moment. Yeah. Right. So the church I was consulting, we were saying, okay, let me ask you a question.
If you were all, uh, if you all had reached young people and stayed, uh, you know, At a, at a healthy level of attendance and membership and activity admission, [00:16:00] how would the church look different? And so they begin to list off all these things like, well, we probably have screens, we probably have these kinds of ministries.
We probably do midweek. We, the building would probably refresh and painted and all these sorts of things. And I say, okay, great. So if you're gonna reach young people, And young families now, are you prepared to embrace those changes and they paused, right? Yeah. Cause they didn't know if they were ready or not.
Yeah. And then another question, if you have some kids show up who's who among you is gonna be ready to handle. Uh, children's ministry. Do you have a plan like who who's gonna do that? Like yeah. What do you need to change in the building? Is your, is your kids' classrooms, are your kids' classrooms? Are they, are they clean and safe and ready to go?
And, and if they're not, how are you gonna do that? Right? Yeah. Are you gonna, how are you gonna prepare that among yourselves? Cause they, they were resistant to outside partners coming in, helping them and so they didn't, they couldn't imagine how they would get ready and prepare for God. To bring them what they hoped God would bring them.
They just were kind of [00:17:00] hoping and thinking and praying, well, maybe some miracle's gonna happen. Yeah. Like something's gonna happen. Well, I, I think yes, but one of my favorite passages, the second King's three. The Kings come together and they go fight against Moab and God leads him to a desert and the desert's, you know, dry and, and, uh, everybody starts complaining, you know, like, uh, what, why did we just, why did we come out here that, you know, just to die together, you know, and all this kind of stuff.
And so is there a prophet of the Lord to me inquire him? And so they, they pray and, uh, they inquire the prophet and the prophet says, make this valley full of ditches. Right. And what does. What does that, you know, think about Jimbo. If you're in a desert, like I was in San Antonio a couple weeks ago, Jimbo, it was so hot.
I couldn't even think outside it was just like, I mean, we took Daisy and she was like, what did you guys do? You know? Like, it was just, I mean, it was crazy hot, but like way hotter than that, no water in a desert, [00:18:00] you gotta dig ditches. And, and why are we digging ditches? This doesn't make any. And, uh, second Kings three said, you'll neither see wind, wind nor rain, but this valley will be full of water.
Right? Mm-hmm so they go to sleep, wake up the next morning. And as the sun is coming up over the mountain, water's in the ditches and the. Opposing army sees it and they see the red in it. They think they've all killed each other. There's bloods all over the ground. Right. And so then they, they come over, you know, kind of just like, if you already think you've got this one, you're coming over, not ready to fight.
And so then the, the Israel, and so they, and Juda, they rise up and they go against them. Right. And they, they take out the army and, uh, and so great picture he's had, but what did they have to do? They had to dig the ditches in preparation for the water to be. Given to them so they could drink it, but also, so they would give them a victory.
And I think what I see is a lot of churches don't want to dig the ditches. Mm. [00:19:00] They just want God to show up and do something for them. Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. I think that's what I was trying to say far less eloquently than you just did. Well, I don't know about that. what, uh, of, you know, I think sometimes when we, there's a laziness to saying, well, God's just gonna come through with a miracle.
Um, I mean, if he's told you that, but, but almost always that's God speaks through his prophets and speaks through his, his spirit in ways that says like, Hey, go dig a ditch. Yeah. Hey, bring me those sister and fill 'em with water. Yeah. Bring me to five loaves and the two fish. And then you are gonna do the work of breaking it and taking it out to every, like, he always brings us in as co-laborers co-heirs in, in, in the process.
And. So even I think of. The whole residence to partnership. I struggle with that, cuz partnership's such a biblical idea. And even if you look at the Blackaby story in Saskatoon, part of [00:20:00] the miracle, there was not Henry Blackaby. It was, it was that Henry is like a George Mueller type praying guy and he would pray and people would just show up.
And these partners would like, like literally these people would just show up and. Checks would just show up and mission teams would just show up. And, and so it wasn't that God did all this through Henry Blackaby. It's that God Henry Blackaby prayed and he sought the Lord. And then the Lord provided partners that church didn't become healthy just under the leadership of Henry Blackaby.
Yep. That's a good perspective. That's that? God provided partners and man, I don't, I don't know. I just, I would love to see a day. When partnership is not seen as a negative when, when we just like to go, oh, we're you don't have to think, oh, we're so sick that we need partners. That's one way to look at that.
The other way to look at that is praise God. We are part of the body of Christ universal, [00:21:00] and there are other. Brothers and sisters that love Jesus. Like we love Jesus that preach the gospel. Like we preach the gospel and they want to help us. And in a Galatians six moment, we've got a burden that's too heavy for us to carry.
Yeah. And, and so others are gonna come help carry that and therefore fulfill the law of Christ. Love it. That, that that's what, like, that's, I. In my mind. I'd just go. Cause when I was pastor replant, man, I looked for partners everywhere. Yes. Everywhere.
Bob Bickford: Yes. Cuz as a re planter, we know man, we're sick.
JimBo Stewart: Like man, I need partners bro.
Like. We did so many things with so many churches. I didn't even care if they were healthy. I just look let's. So we, we had worship nights where there was like seven churches and there would only be 85 people there, but we would, and, and the reason I did that was like, cuz worship seven small churches. And none of us could have a worship night with 85 people right now.
But if we all come [00:22:00] together yeah. Then we could have, how fun would it be for 85 people to be together. And we're not trying to compete with each other. And there's, we've gotta move away from competitive thinking. Yeah. And, and, and, and part of competitive thinking that we don't often think is competitive thinking, is that.
We don't need outside partners to come in because we're not that bad or they're gonna take some control away from us. So they're yeah. Look, cooperation takes sacrifice. Mm-hmm it always does. It always will. Mm-hmm um, but that, I mean, sacrifice is part of following
Bob Bickford: Jesus. Yeah. Part of and sacrifice. I is.
and this is where I think the church that we were doing, the consultation with really struggled sacrificed with preference. Yeah. How are we gonna do things like, so, um, one of our children, um, will have a physical need. Um, and, um, you know, when you're not feeling well, you're kind of sick. What do you do?
You go to dad? Do you go to mom? Well, most kids go to mom, right? So they go to mom and mom's, you know, Barb's got, you know, all [00:23:00] these home remedies and all these things that she's does and all this kinda stuff. So. One of our kids would say, you know, mom, I don't feel well. So she'd come to the child and, and say, well, um, I've got, well, I've got this.
And uh, I think this would help you. No, I don't wanna do that. Okay. Well, I've got this and I think this would help you. No, I don't wanna do that either. I got this and I think this would help you. No, I don't wanna do that. So geez. Okay. That child of ours, all that child wants to do is just complain about being sick.
They don't want to receive any help. Yeah. I don't wanna do that. It's like, like, yeah. Okay. So, so she's taken a different approach. She has to take a different approach and she has to draw it out, so, okay. Well what do, what, how can I help you? Right. What can I do? Yeah. Right. And so when we talk to a church that's struggling, or even if you're, uh, bootcamp listener here and your, your church is struggling.
You might could say, well, what should we do? Or what can we do? Let's [00:24:00] think about some options. And then Phil, most churches don't though that are in decline. They don't have a, a whiteboard Jimbo. They still have the chalkboard mm-hmm so go to Walmart, get some chalk, go to hobby lobby. I think they have chalk there.
Hobby lobby. Yeah. And get the chalk and then write on the chalkboard and what, what are options? What can we do get 'em move it, right. Get 'em thinking about what the options are. And. Looking at those options thinking which of these could we do better if somebody was here to help us yeah. Do this right.
And still you're starting to get them to move forward in momentum. Right. Yeah. And rather than just saying immediately go into partnership. Right? Yeah. Which of these could we do? Which of them could we not do which of them could we do if we had a partner. Right. And why don't we try that just as an option, like, like try to reach our community with a partner.
Yeah. And see what happens and, uh, do community outreach. So I think, is it possible to revitalize a church? Yes. Is it probable. Depends sometimes. Right. Sometimes [00:25:00] depends on the, on the readiness of the congregation, on the spiritual work that's taken place. And, uh, and so I think we want to encourage our listeners just to remember, um, if you're in a tough spot, in a tight spot and you're thinking, man, I don't know if it's possible.
It's always possible. Is it probable? Needs to be seen. Yeah,
JimBo Stewart: I guess, I guess I would wanna say maybe the default should be who are the partners that can help us figure this out? Mm-hmm like, I, I just think that should be a default question from the beginning. Um, like where, where do we have people that could help us do this better?
It doesn't necessarily mean you have to become a campus of somebody or, or change your name, or, but I don't know why you would try to do it alone. Like I just can't Ima that's just not in my mindset. I can't imagine trying to do that alone. And look, I don't know that there's anything that will kill your probabilities faster than holding onto preferences.
Mm-hmm , that's pride, pride. I mean, that's pride, pride and holding onto [00:26:00] preferences will kill your chances. Mm-hmm uh, is God, God opposes the proud, but he gives grace to the humble. And, um, I don't, I don't think we wanna be opposed. By God. Nope. And so approach it in humility, man, and figure out partnership.
Don't don't assume that self-guided revitalization is the right answer or, or even the only answer, um, default to a posture of partnership. All right. Boot campers. It's great to have you with us. I hope that we get to meet you in person at the replant summit later this month, uh, hit us up if you're gonna be.
Welcome back to the bootcamp. This week we have a special guest, Pastor Matt MacNaughton. Matt is the founding church planter and pastor of Grace Life Church - https://thegracelifechurch.org
Matt joined JimBo at the Calvary Family of Churches Non-Ignorable Conference in Denver, CO. JimBo and Bob interviewed Matt MacNaughton to discuss what lessons a church planter can learn from replanters and what lessons replanters can learn from church planters.
One of the things we discussed was the importance of developing partnerships. We discussed this episode 47 - https://replantbootcamp.com/podcast/ep47/
Matt also shared that church planters often have a visionary mindset and can learn from replanters about an emphasis on shepherding. Bob and JimBo discussed some cautions for visionary leaders in a previous episode - https://replantbootcamp.com/podcast/ep93/
In today’s connected culture your church needs a functional and strategic web presence. Our great sponsor One Eighty Digital can get your Church a website up and running in the right direction.
Show notes powered by Descript are an approximation of the verbal content, consult podcast audio for accuracy
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] All right here we are back at the bootcamp, Bob. I hope you're ready for the next episode, coming to you live from Denver, Colorado. Uh, as we record this, it'll come out a few weeks after we record. but we're here in Denver for the non ignorable conference with mark Haack and, the cavalry family of churches.
And I'm gonna tell you, man, every time I come to Denver, I am always surprised when I go for my morning walk. Of how many, just random rabbits there are everywhere. Like, I probably, I probably saw 15 buddy rabbits on my walk yesterday morning.
Bob Bickford: so time out here, I, I just, are you really seeing bunny rabbits or Jimbo? Are you imagining them because you now have a rabbit living in your house.
JimBo Stewart: Nope. Nope. It, it did feel a little like home. We're watching a friend's rabbit for a month, uh, that. Breaks free out of its cage and rums free through our house randomly. and so I've, I've become accustomed to just randomly seeing rabbits in places. I don't expect them to, but [00:01:00]still a little surprised as I got here in Denver.
Bob Bickford: Well, it's pretty awesome. I'm uh, here in sweaty St. Louis, where it's a heat index of over a hundred degrees and it's a Jimbo, it's a two shower and about three shirt day, every day here St. Louis. So I'm a, I'm a, you know, Jimbo I'm, I'm not a little fellow, I'm kind of a big guy. And, so.
JimBo Stewart: Had a big engine.
Bob Bickford: Big engine got a big engine and, uh, it gets hot.
I get sweaty and, I wanna be a friend of the people and available to people. So I have to shower and change the shirt every once in a while. But I got another pressing burning question, for you, Jimbo. What is the, what is the hug count to date from happy huggy, holic.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. So triple H has, uh, given me four hugs, we were only there for two sessions. Yes. Yesterday was the beginning of the conference. and, and I've already received four hugs, I assume by the end of the week, I will be in a full chest embrace with my head on his chest.
Bob Bickford: Yes, you will be. And if, if you have, if you don't follow me on social media, we we've broken that [00:02:00] down for you. I think in Twitter and on Facebook. And we'll put it up again, on the, the process and just kind of what you can
expect. Yeah. The infographic, there you go. Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: Absolutely. Hey, I'll tell you what, being at the conference, I also got to meet some replant bootcamp, followers, fans that have enjoyed listening to one of the nation's leading podcast. According to page 97 of the Booker reports. But, no, I, Ryan Durham and his wife were here from Nebraska. had a great conversation with them, man.
And, and so they just wanted to express their gratitude. And so I wanted to give them a shout on out on here. And, man boot campers, we'd love meeting you when we're at conferences and out and about. And, if you're a listener, we love to know that and it encourages us to keep going. grateful that we are able to, be an encouragement and clipper to some.
Bob Bickford: That's awesome. Pretty awesome. When we, when we've been out on the road, you know, for our first, the wrapping up this, uh, travel season from last, last, Semester. So to speak, met some, some bootcamp [00:03:00] fans in North Carolina and Alaska. It's just great to see those boot campers. And we'd love to hear from you.
Please drop us a line, let us know you're out there listening, let us know, you know, how the podcast is making a difference and, if there's a topic that you would like for us to cover, we love to, we love to connect with you guys when we we're out in the.
JimBo Stewart: Absolutely Bob today. I wanted to bring on, I've got with me from Jacksonville here in Denver. Good friend of mine, Matt McNaughton. I don't really know what to call Matt. he planted a church, sometime ago, but we've, we've discussed this before Bob, at what point? At what point are you no longer a church planter.
And do you graduate to becoming actually a pastor? And so, so Matt, are, are you a church planter or are, I mean, what is there, is there a process in which you do you have to go through an initiation? Do you, do you get beat up out of the gang, to no longer be a church planter? Or how do you guys distinguish?
Matt MacNaughton: I think. It totally comes down to who I'm talking to. Okay. All right. And depending on what I'm talking about,
am I
Bob Bickford: is [00:04:00] it? does does it have anything, does it
have anything, to do with, like, does he have skinny jeans on Jimbo or air Jordans or is his hair spiked? Is that like, is that some of it or.
Matt MacNaughton: it? Yeah. I mean, I still, I'm not wearing skinny jeans right now, But
Bob Bickford: Well,
JimBo Stewart: you do own, I do own a pair of skinny jeans.
Bob Bickford: yeah, after you pastor for a while, you can't wear, you can't wear skinny jeans after a while when you're a pastor for a while. Cause you're meeting people and eating so skinny jeans don't look good, but
you
know,
Matt MacNaughton: that's true. I've wore 'em out. So I had to retire them. So I don't actually own the pair of skinny jeans. Oh, may have just graduated. witnessing the.
Bob Bickford: go.
JimBo Stewart: Finally
Bob Bickford: Congratulations.
JimBo Stewart: to bring that on here today because when we talk about replanting, we've talked about how philosophically and practically it's somewhat like the center of a Venn diagram between church revitalization and church planting. Right? On this podcast, [00:05:00] we have, really swung a lot further on the revitalization side of that conversation, of that Venn diagram.
And, mainly cuz it's just a much, much better enjoyable world, than church planting. But, we should give some attention to the world of church planting and I can't think of anybody better than my good friend, Matt aughts. Matt, tell us just real briefly, introduce yourself, tell us about your church, and all of those.
Matt MacNaughton: Yeah. my name's Matt grew up in clay county, Florida, which is where we moved back to, to plant our church, married to Julie and got two kids. And seven years ago we planted grace life. We moved back home to just reach friends and family, with the gospel and did not expect ever church plant. It was never.
On the radar. So total God things we've been there seven years met in a school, met in a shrine club during COVID and moved into our own space. And. Just been working towards making [00:06:00]disciples, raising up leaders and reaching the people around us. I think this Shriner club was my favorite of y'all's locations because it had the, it had the big hat out front.
and I really, I was really hoping you guys would've built a good enough relationship there that we could've borrowed the little bitty dune buggies at some point, but, uh, that never, that never happened. Well, they would usually go get the bug. During service. Oh, of course. So yeah, you could hear, 'em start it up in their little garage and you're like, well, they're getting the buggy out.
It's a nice day. I think that might have been my least favorite of all our locations.
Bob Bickford: Likely so.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. So talk to us about, we've talked about this before Matt, but what are some of the things you see? let's just start with, what are some of the things you've seen from the replant and revitalization world that you think would be good for church planters to know,
Matt MacNaughton: you know, when you're going through that process leading. So launching a church, planting the church, it's all the church plant world, but I probably the last [00:07:00] four or five years, I've learned so much from the replant world, mainly as we joke about it earlier. But as I'm, you're transitioning into thinking more pastoral and caring for people. So from a church planner's perspective, Right from the beginning, your mindset isn't necessarily people.
You don't have any people you're preparing for a launch Sunday, so you can learn how to relate to people. The, the good, the, the, the difficult, how to pastor and shepherd people that, need pastoring and shepherding how to lead them. Well, in all sorts of context, you can, I think get a glimpse of. Just the difficulty of future seasons of your church and to prepare and plan and, be on the lookout for those seasons and, and what leads that.
Plus at the same point, you, the re planters I'm around are highly encouraging to me, mainly because there's such a. [00:08:00] a. A deep, not that church planners don't have this, but the re planners have just this deep desire to see a church flourish. And that's always been encouraging to me. I mean, there's a host more that we can spend learning of learning to do ministry without things.
And that's okay. learning to do ministry with. little and being very creative in a different context that God led you to. And knowing that he put you there for a specific reason, reason, and trusting in his faithfulness. So yeah, so much you can learn from a church planter. You can learn from a re planter as a church planter.
Bob Bickford: Matt, one of the things that church planters, have a burden. For two, two burdens I think, is to reach lost people with the gospel and then to make sure that their church grows to a state of viability. Right? So the, those are from as a, as a replant or I've seen those, would you resonate with [00:09:00] those is, is two significant burdens that a planter feels.
And then how, how did you navigate that when you, when you felt the pressure of those.
Matt MacNaughton: Yeah, it, our whole call to plant grace life stemmed from out of the stories of Ezra and Nehemiah, Nehemiah won. He's heartbroken for his hometown. And that was, I was reading that when I was wrestling with the call to plant I'm like, Lord, are you calling us back home through? And I have friends. And people I've grown up with, I know this community and there's a there's lostness there, even though it's disguised as religiousness, we came back to plant because we wanted to see people come to know Jesus as, as savior.
And that's what launches into this church. What we're still trying to chase after and pursue obey. You get, you start. And then for us it was, we moved, it was my wife and my two year old son who likes to [00:10:00] say that he was the first kid at our church. It's kind of a, that he's getting older. So he's, he's wearing that badge.
But
in knowing like, okay, in order for our church to grow, we have to reach people.
We have to go out and meet people and invite them. And. I didn't realize at the time, but all the people that I thought would come to our church never did. Cuz I thought you knew me. You'd come to our church. that didn't happen.
So I had to go meet new people and, part of that is knowing, Hey, there's a, this model that Jesus laid out for us to go and make disciples is okay, I have to go. I have to meet people. I have to share the gospel with them and I have to bring them with me in order for us to see a church grow. And that has changed over the years.
Just I think as I've gotten older, of my expectations and the reality of church planting and the world and pastoring and, the times where. I looked out, uh, well, I just, I was telling Jimbo our first 4th of July service, we had 14 [00:11:00] people and the only people from that service that are still with us is my wife and my son.
So, and, and in this past, past, 4th of July service, we had, we packed. The our, our new space is one of the, the most people we've had in our new space since we've moved into it. And I'm like, what a stark difference, of seeing these people that we've baptized. And, but there are seasons. We were like, did I miss God's call here was, but sticking to the mission of going and, and reaching people in order to. Disciple them.
JimBo Stewart: One of the things that I have seen, church planters naturally do kind of like we were talking about evangelism and growing a church to a state of viability and so a heavy focus on outreach. That's great for re planters and revital to learn from. But one that I see not enough re planters and revitalizes learn from church planters is developing partnerships.
and, [00:12:00] I mean that financially, I mean that networking wise with other so like church planters, from what I've seen, Know that part of their role is to go fundraise, to get mission partners, to send mission teams, to help them do outreach, to build networks of friendships with other church planters.
So they can learn from each other and, figure out how each other's doing things better than, and, be able to improve what they're doing because of what they learn. and more I'm seeing it happen more than I have in the past, but speak to us about. That the benefit of, that seeking partnership.
Cause I would love to see more re planters and even revitalizes take a focus on developing partnerships in all those directions. So when we planted or when we wrestled with that call to plants, my background's independent Baptist. So the idea of partnership was somewhat foreign to me. So when we connected, when we moved back to town and connected with our association, it was, uh, you see the value immediately of, there [00:13:00] are people who have gone through this before us, or they're right here with us and they have, they know they they've been there and you don't want to.
Matt MacNaughton: What I love about our association is you don't pastor. And the first event that I went to, I have, I'm like, still not sure if this is even something we're gonna do. And someone came up to me and said, are you Matt? And I said, I'm Matt. He said, can I just pray for you? Mm-hmm that was the first thing I'm like, well, that blew my mind.
He says, you're wrestling with this. This is a big deal for you and your family. And I just wanna pray for you. And that kinda laid the foundation. I can't do this alone. I need to build relationships with planters and pastors outside of the whole, I need partners to help us just do ministry within the church.
So just from a, a personal spiritual standpoint, if I had to do it alone, I would've quit. I know that for those first couple years, I'd have been like, this [00:14:00] is. Just too difficult, the encouragement, but from a partnership standpoint, having people step in and just say, Hey, you, you know, you're building, a team, but you, you, you wanna pull off an event.
We can help do those things for you, which takes immense pressure off. just checking in to see how the family's doing. We've had. Just how encouraging is to the, to my kids to see other pastors and other churches understand the difficult reality of planting a church. So I, I, I could honestly say I wouldn't be here planting still pastoring grace life.
If it weren't not for the partnerships early on, right away, and still going on to this day, checking in with me and just saying, Hey, how are you doing. what you reading in your Bible. That's outside of sermon asking questions that help just give in toward inventory of my own heart. And that's the importance of those partnerships.
Bob Bickford: Man, one of the things that, that planters and re planters, I think, experience when Jimbo talked about, you know, there's an overlap [00:15:00] of the Venn diagram is isolation and discourage. Right. And so I think discouragement for different reasons, like a re planters discouraged, typically because of all the challenge he has and all the inertia that he has to overcome and all the battles that he has to face to help write the ship, so to speak and get people pointed in a direction.
And then from a planter's like, if you could name the top two or three distract the, uh, discouragements, like what would those be? That a planter has to deal.
Matt MacNaughton: Oh, I think early on, just from, I'll give my.
Bob Bickford: yeah.
Matt MacNaughton: To, because of the partnership aspect and not connecting, it was early on right away. I did it full time. So you're thinking part of this is I, I have to take care of my family and when things were not going the way I thought, and then seeing just. There's no, for one, I didn't, if I would've known early on that, Hey, when you reach new people or, or lost people with the gospel and they become Christians and you're baptizing them and you're discipling them, they don't give right [00:16:00] away.
So you have the dis the, the discipleship runway. So the discouragement for me was, from a somewhat of a financial standpoint early on of providing for my family, just the unknown and. I I struggled with this is, and this is all my backgrounds, just watching other church plants, what I thought really flourished. And they were not realizing that our church was flourishing too, just in God's way in God's timing. And I think that compare and contrast. Can really be a discouragement to you.
JimBo Stewart: So early on, I learned don't get on social media and pray for 'em and that helped fight that. And now I've built great relationships with a lot of these men who love Jesus and realize that it's just a tactic to enemy uses to discourage. Yeah. I think that moving from competition to cooperation piece is so huge.
and I see that becoming less of the church planting culture these days. and I would even say less of the replanting and revitalization culture, [00:17:00] but man, it's so important. And thinking back to the, what we talked about just a few minutes ago on the developing partnerships piece. I try to encourage rep planters from revitalize all the time, man.
There's nothing that says you can't fundraise or find partners like a church planter. I think guys just assume, oh, I'm a revitalizer or re planter. And so I can't fundraise. Here is what I tell guys. A lot of times, you, you gotta have a clear and compelling reason as to be able to communicate a clear and compelling reason as to why someone would wanna partner with what you're doing.
You can't, you can't just go ask people to help you paint your boat. That's sinking. it's not gonna, no, nobody wants to come help you paint your boat. That's that's starting to fall into the ocean. But if you have clear, outward focused, and one of the errors I see guys make in this is they immediately start trying to fundraise for facilities, maintenance.
We need a new roof, we need a new AC things like that. And what I've found is, is people are not going to help you fund that most likely, But if you will [00:18:00] start developing partnerships through getting people to help you fund ministering to your local elementary school or middle school or high school, doing block parties and reaching out to the community and partnering with your local, doing a job fair to help people find jobs, if you're in a low income area or, but like, there are things like that that I believe that I've had.
Success and seeing others have success in getting mission partners to help you with that. And then as you develop that ministry partnership, and that's where if you're a replant to revitalize. Go learn from a church planter, ask them how they do that because they get trained to do that. And, and they're expected to do that.
And so they've figured out a lot of the ways, most likely of how to develop those partnerships, how to communicate well to partners, make sure they know what's going on. Go learn as much as you can from church planters that are doing that and apply that to your context and understanding. That once one.
Now what I've seen at Redden at the church that I led as a replant, we started with all outward focused outreach focused, but over [00:19:00] time, as we developed partnerships with churches that cared about our church, that even after I left, they did end up needing a new roof. And I was able to help reach out to some of those ministry partners.
And most of them chipped in to help pay for a new roof. But if that's the first ask. You're probably not gonna get very far and you're gonna get, you're gonna be frustrated. but also that's not that doesn't, that doesn't need to be your first ask. And that's what we were saying earlier. One of the things we can learn from church planters is by necessity.
They start out outreach focused. because no one there's no one there. And so like, you think you got no one there at your church on Sunday morning, church planters often start with their wife and their kids in the living room. Um, and they're begging their friends and their cousins and their mom and dad to, just be here.
So it's not just us. and they're starting with nothing most times. And so. Those are some things we can, we can relate to those guys on and learn from them. and so that's one of the big pieces I think. We could, we could sit with learn, develop friendships, our boss, mark Clifton often [00:20:00] encourages guys, man, go make friends with a bunch of church planters and, just develop those relationships, learn from them.
Matt MacNaughton: but what I've heard you say the past couple days, Matt is church planters ought to be coming to learn from some re planters and yeah. Talk, talk to me a little about what, what have you seen in the replant resources that have appealed to you? This goes back to the question right out the gate. It was, when are you a no longer a church planner and a pastor? What I didn't realize at the time is that when you, you spend so much time focusing on launch Sunday, so it's very oftentimes system oriented. You're getting those systems in place and then people show up, well, right away, you're called to pastor them. And. You don't think that that way oftentimes, so a lot of the resources from a replant revitalization aspect deal so much with pastoral care and, and leadership. And so I find the, the encouragement of. Of learning to pastor people [00:21:00] where they are, what they're going through, pointing them to Jesus, sitting with them is good. And I think we can learn as church planners a lot from, from men who have just who love pastoring, God's called them to do this. They understand the challenges and they're gonna show up and do it regardless of the difficulty.
And then, and realizing that, Hey, ultimately, it's you see in, Paul writing the, the qualifications of a, of an elder, not the qualifications of a, of a church planter. So realizing that, Hey, this is, this is what God's called me to do. I'm yeah. I'm still a church planner at heart, but nobody a lot, some there's families at our church now that don't even realize I planted the. That's a master map. So learning how to pastor people well and doing so in a way that honors the Lord and continues to carry out that just desire to keep the church plant DNA in our church, I think is what I, I, I've [00:22:00] learned a lot from the replant resources and navigating difficult waters, cuz we're seven years in and it things come up where you're like, well, this isn't. Everything's supposed to be great. Why, why are we having conflict here? This is, we're not old enough to have conflict, but if you look at, uh, so my daughter was born a month after we planted the, our, for our launch service a month later, which was a terrible, no one on our assessment team told us, wait another year.
It would be so good. so, and I've told my professors this, like, you could have just said, just wait one more year. But I look at my daughter and I look at our church and they're the same age and we definitely have conflict at times with, I love her to death, but it's just raising children and we have this somewhat elementary school aged church plants.
And there is at times conflict. It doesn't have decades of history maybe, but. Navigating conflict is often something you can learn from those replant revitalization
resources.
Bob Bickford: Man such, such good stuff. And, and I think over, over and over, just [00:23:00] my kind of recurring thought through listening to Matt and tell his story is there's a lot more similarity than difference between a planter and a re planter. And so most of our audience is, I would say, you know, re planters or revitalizes the majority.
Right. And so what I would just say is guys, when you, when you have opportunity, Push back the opportunity of getting to know some planters and connecting with them and, listen to their story. They'll listen to your story and, uh, we'll see a good brotherhood forge and, and move forward. Hey, one of the things I'm really excited about Jimbo is at the end of August, we have the replant summit and the theme is replenish and reset and.
We are super excited about some of the speakers. We've got Frank Lewis, Bob bum garner, Jordan Rainer. And so I just want to put a plug in there, for the great work that Jimbo's doing and the team preparing the summit for you guys to join us last week and August there sales a few spots available. So you can go to replant, summit.com [00:24:00] and we'll put the link in the show notes, but we love to see you guys there.
And I look forward to, uh, get to know some new folks and look forward to encouraging.
JimBo Stewart: Hey, we'll even allow church planters to come to the replant summit. if you want to
Matt MacNaughton: I plan to be there.
Bob Bickford: yeah, don't wear skinny jeans.
JimBo Stewart: Oh, man, it's a different crowd. it's a different crowd. All right. Boot campers. if you do come to the replant summit, man, come tell us, Hey, let us know that you listen. let us know how we can continue to be an encouragement to you and how, we can be an equip equippers to you and what we can do to help if there's anything specific we can do.
Thanks guys.
Have you ever blown it? Like, really blown it. Have you blown it like this guy - https://youtu.be/MHVsBy31ISI
Let’s talk about three ways you can blow it….
Disqualifying – you do something to disqualify yourself from ministry (in some cases people debate about this one, we think scripture is clear) • 1 Timothy 3 • Titus 1 Actions: repent, resign, enter into a process of spiritual not positional restoration. (don’t already have a vision of when you are able to get “back” into ministry in mind.
Consider a ministry partner like https://pastorshopenetwork.org/ and/or consider getting some time away and some pastoral support at https://practicalshepherding.com/shepherdshouse
Disconcerting – something that causes those led by you to feel unsettled. (not disqualifying)
Disappointing – Something that lets others down, misses the mark of their expectations etc.
If you’ve made a mistake on the caliber of the latter two…here are some options….
Actions:
Connect with those who have been hurt or offended Matt 5:23
Correct a misstep or wrong or hurtful action – an unqualified apology Romans 12:18
Consider (for you) how this took place, what happened what was said, done etc. know the why’s behind the action. The 5 Why’s
Don’t be paralyzed by a mistake – you’re going to make them, you will not lead without offending, misstating and even doing something wrong-own it, deal with it and then move forward.
Other misc. thoughts.
Sit with your mistake and process it – think it through
You can be right but in the wrong way
Our great partners at one eighty digital can help you avoid blowing it when it comes to your church website and branding. Contact them today and let them know you are a bootcamp listener. I promise they won’t make their own kingdom in the video room. JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp, Bob. I hope you're ready for the next episode, as we continue into the sweltering heat of summer, I mean, it's, it's getting insane here in the state of Florida, as we swelter through everything. AC bills going up, gas price is going up. I, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to afford to live anymore.
Bob.
Bob Bickford: well, I hope you'll be able for it to live. Maybe, maybe we'll be living in a shed somewhere, but I, so I spent $90 on gas this morning, Jimbo, filling up Barb's 4runner. 4runner. my college daughter's home and she was visiting and she ran it outta gas last night, pretty much. So I woke up to that, filled it up 90 bucks.
And then, man, everything's just crazy going up, like went, went out to eat, at this pizza joint and the bill was like, A hundred bucks. Right? So salads and in three beats is like, man, it is, is expensive. So I know this is affecting our re planters. and we [00:01:00] haven't, I haven't heard yet if it's affecting offerings or not, but, I'm sure this, this is a kind of, one of those seasons where everybody's going, man, what, what do we do?
So, you know, everybody's gotta pull back a little. Financially. And, while we're pulling back financially, the heat is ratcheting up. And so I feel your pain with the air conditioner. You know, I will wake up in the middle of the night feeling, cuz I sleep by my side of the beds by the vent. So I'll feel the cool air kick on.
And then I'll just think of dollar signs and just think of like, it's like. It's like the, uh, the showcase showdown wheel at the, you know, at the end of prices, right. When they spin the wheel, that's, that's the bill, like just going around and around and I'm just like, oh man, this is gonna be a tough.
JimBo Stewart: Oh man. Absolutely. it's insane. I've I've my kids, even though they're older than most of them, the kid menu, I'm just telling 'em you're you're back to the kid menu for a while.
Bob Bickford: Well, you know what I know, you know what, so I'm, I've been told and I think this is now [00:02:00] true Jimbo. I, I turned double nickels in this last month. And so I think I'm now eligible for the senior discount at most restaurants that mark Clifton would go to.
JimBo Stewart: Come on.
There we go.
Bob Bickford: not restaurants that I would go to, but ones that mark Clifton would go to.
So I may have to start eating at Bob Evans and Denny's and IHOP and all those places. And just laying down my driver's license and saying, Hey, give me the senior discount.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, there we go. You gotta, but you gotta go at four 30 for dinner. You can't
Bob Bickford: Get the early bird and then I'm in bed by like eight. So, you know, that's pretty much my life
these days. it.
is my life jumbo. That's
JimBo Stewart: Well, Hey man, congrats to making it to 55 without blowing it big time and disqualifying yourself for ministry at this point. here's hoping you can make it another 20, 30 years without blowing it big time. Uh it's that's, that's my seamless transition into our topic for today. Bob, what do you do?
Here's what we're gonna talk about today. [00:03:00] What do you do when you, when you blow it big time? And so there are different levels of that, but, a lot of times when it, when it comes to church revitalization and replanting, we tend to have a biased in our conversations towards the. Poor perspectives and decisions of church members that create issues.
but sometimes, and you know, and so we talk about like, when you get blamed for things that aren't really your fault or people complain all the time about things. but what if they're right. What if you do blow it, what if, I mean, sometimes they are right. Sometimes we do mess up and we fall short of what we were supposed to do or who we're supposed to be or how we're supposed to lead.
what do you do when you actually, you mess up, you look at it. You recognize? Yeah. I, I messed up on this one.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, such a, such a good question. And I think it's, it's one that every revitalizer and re planter will have to answer, because here's the reality. We [00:04:00] are going to make mistakes, leadership, mistakes. And we're going to need to, to address those. And so I think we'd probably need to qualify the mess up and some categories to understand what are we actually talking about.
So when I thought about this, as we were thinking about this podcast, there's a couple of, categories that I think would be helpful for us to talk about. The first one would be a disqualifying. Mistake, right. or sin, And, we, you do something to disqualify yourself for ministry and, and, you know, we think of the qualifications of ministry in, in first Timothy three, and Titu one, but this would be a moral failure to the degree that you should take, a break.
And probably in some cases, maybe even a permanent break from ministry. Right. And we've, we've had, you know, it's been pretty widespread. The terms of, what we've seen is in terms of failures from public personas, people who have made significant mistakes had [00:05:00] moral failings and they take a week off and then they're back in ministry.
this is not what we're talking about here. There's some, there's some mistakes, adultery affairs. Um, Trouble legal trouble, you know, on and on abuse on and on. We could go. And there's some mistakes that you can make that simply disqualify you for ministry. Now that may not be forever, but that may be for a season.
And then we're also gonna have the theological debate of if there's an affair, disqualify someone from ministry permanently, right. And there are people who say yes, and there's people who say, Hmm, maybe not. But I think one of the things that happens often that that's. Frustrating for me, Jimbo is when somebody does something that is categorized or could be categorized as a disqualifying mistake, they minimize it and then they just take a, a small step back from ministry or they leave one place and go to another place.
And I think that's heartbreaking and that's heartbreaking. And, and I think it's something that has to be addressed.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I would say you, if you've done [00:06:00] something disqualifying or even potentially disqualifying, I think we have to say you don't get to be the one to decide how long that break is. You don't get to be the one to decide whether that's a permanent disqualification or a P. temporary disqualification, but some sort of outside council outside wise help your local association, state convention, maybe can speak into that.
Your elders of your church maybe can speak into that. but depending on what it is, right? Like, and we, you hear stories of, of stuff like this, like. If it's been like abuse in the sense of, the way you lead, not necessarily sexual abuse, but like you, you are abusive towards people. You lead. The chances are, you've built some sort of elder board or deacon board or oversight board that really is, is kind of rubber stamp.
Yes. People. and so. At just, I don't know, be careful at that point of, of going to those guys and going, Hey, I think I'm good. Just gimme a couple weeks off and then I'll be back and they go, oh yeah, if you're on that [00:07:00] board, man, probably reach out to some outside counsel and just get some wisdom on how, how to approach that unique situation.
Every situation's gonna be unique and there's a temptation to soften the blow a little bit. but we need to be really careful in that type of situation.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I agree. I really appreciate the, wisdom in your recommendation of, you're not the one that determines if you're able to step back in ministry or not. You have to, to submit to, a, a. That can hold you accountable. And the preference would be, that would be a local group who knows you like really knows you.
And we've seen on the national stage. We've. Individuals go from local, uh, oversight, accountability to national oversight, accountability, particularly in the larger church situation where, where somebody will, will build up an accountability team of friends and say that this is now their accountability board.
And that typically doesn't go very well. because what people don't know them, right? they don't know them intimately. They don't know how, how they work with others. So those are the [00:08:00]disqualifying things. So what I would say is if you made a disqualifying mistake, you need to repent first. bef because you've sinned before God.
Next, I think you need to resign. You need to enter into a process of spiritual restoration, not positional restoration.
JimBo Stewart: mm-hmm
Bob Bickford: And specifically, you don't already need to have a vision of when you're able to get back in ministry in mind. Right? You need to put that aside. You need to keep that at bay, and you need to think about, where you were before the Lord and with your family and with those who are around you and make restitution where you can't, if it's appropriate and those sorts of things.
So that would be a category of disqualifying mistake, the next
area or category.
JimBo Stewart: one thing with that real quick.
Bob Bickford: Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: I was researching this for someone recently, as they were asked to leave a church and, I came across, so I don't have, I don't, I can't give a full endorsement cause I don't have a personal testimony or even a secondhand testimony, but I tried to find surely there's someone out there that's there to help.
And I found something called the pastors hope network.org [00:09:00] that, provides. Counseling and, vocational planning, help, and family counseling and all sorts of different resources for pastors who are forced to resign or are. Are fired or, or situations like that, that's really their heart beat. and so from what I could find on pastor's hope network.org, it seemed like a fairly solid resource.
And so if that's you, if you're in that, I think it's at least worth, looking into that as a resource or something like that.
Bob Bickford: Awesome. That's good. We'll put that in show notes as a possible, resource for guys to check out. So, so we've got the disqualifying category. The next would be the disconcerting category and the definition of the word disconcerting is something that causes those led by you to feel UNS, settle. Right now, I, we need to give this a qualification.
If you are stepping into a church that has not moved forward in a while, [00:10:00] or had healthy leadership, even if you take a step towards health, it might be disconcerting to some, right? So that's not what I'm talking about here, but I'm talking about the way you lead. Causes someone to feel unsettled, even though they're in agreement with you on the moving forward or the goal or the mission or the value or the objective, their agreement, Hey, the church needs to get healthy.
They might just have something that, uh, occurs in them that, that there's an unsettling. In them about the way you're leading them towards that goal. So let, let me, let me give you a Daisy to pop illustration. It's been a while since she's made, uh, the podcast. So Jimbo, there is a, a strain of dog training that says you have to be the alpha and aggressive and be dominant and all of those sorts of things.
There's that side, like be, be very forceful. The dog, then there's the side that says be very encouraging, speaking, a loving voice, have a little pouch of treats on your belt clip and [00:11:00] lead them with a gentle voice and an encouraging voice. Right. So that really is the trend of. Of, dog training at this point.
So that's the, that's what we're doing with Daisy. Right. But Daisy, the pup has decided at moments and during her walk that she does not want to walk. And so she plops, she just plop down and she just says, I'm, I'm not going. So. I have to say Daisy, come and then get a little treat out of the treat pouch. I am that guy Jimbo.
It's not a Fanny pack, but it's a clip on treat pouch. Right. And I've got it on my belt.
Yeah. All right.
right.
So I'll get a little treat out and I will coax Daisy by saying Daisy come. And then she comes now the first part of the walk Jimbo. I am regularly reaching into the treat pouch and coaxing Daisy to join me on the walk and about halfway through.
She finally gets it and then we're able to move forward. Here's how this relates back to the disconcerting. I could, I could drag Daisy on her harness in her leash. I could drag her on the entire walk, but [00:12:00] if you were sitting on the porch in Webster groves jumbo, and you saw me dragging a puppy wearing a harness down the street, would you, would that be disconcerting to you?
JimBo Stewart: would be disconcerting for
sure.
Bob Bickford: All right. So that's what we're talking about here. Everybody's on board with the walk. Even Daisy knows that she wants to walk, cuz she gets to meet new people and dogs, but it's how I lead. Right. And it's how we move forward. And so there's sometimes when we get so frustrated, we just are like, we're, I'm just pressing the gas.
I'm just moving forward. I'm just making the call. Well, that's a little bit disconcerting, and can cause people to feel unsettled.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think about when I read this description that you put in our pre-show notes, I was thinking about one of my favorite YouTube videos ever of a guy that obviously had reached a point. He needed a break and in the middle of preaching, he just starts going off on this guy who's asleep. And he's like, how dare you fall asleep.
I'm a big deal. And then, and, and he doesn't stop there. [00:13:00] Bob, he kind of goes like, and he starts calling out different members by name. And he is like, and you and your sister, you weren't worth a nickel when you came to this church and you, you want me to marry you to her. You think you're worth marrying to her.
You're the worst church member I ever had. I love you buddy though. Gimme a hug. And then my favorite line. My favorite line, I'll send you the link we got into the show notes, this YouTube video. My favorite line is he, I mean, he just keeps going. And I th I, this line is why it ended up on YouTube. I'm convinced is at some point, then he starts going off on the tech team and, and he goes, and you back there in the video room, got your own kingdom in the video room. It, it made several years ago, it made kind of national nationally viral. And I think even made it like to CNN or something like that. and so I looked it up, figured out what the pastor's name was and all that sort of stuff. And I went back and sure enough, he was not the one preaching for the next two or three weeks.
I imagine [00:14:00] it was such a disconcerting experience for the leaders of that church that they said, Hey buddy, I think it's probably time to take a little vacation, a little respite. and maybe you've made some disconcerting choices because you're burned out. and, you maybe you've tried to live in your own kingdom in the video.
and somebody needs to call you out. and at that point you might just need to take a break, but yeah, I mean, we, we make some disconcerting calls and sometimes when people make disconcerting, but not disqualifying, they get so frustrated, with the pushback that they just decide to leave. I mean, is, is it appropriate at that point to leave Bob
Bob Bickford: Man, I would caution, if, and you're talking about the pastor, right? That's made the, those mistakes. Yeah. So, and I, I. You pointed out something, by referencing the video that guy's probably, he, there was something going on in him that had created that level of frustration and. Hopefully there were a group of men or, or in any church, there would be a group of [00:15:00] leaders who you could go to and go, man, I'm just a little bit fried right now.
And I am heading to the right. I'm heading towards the right objective in the wrong way. Right. Cause we can do the right thing in the wrong way sometimes. And I think this is really what I have in mind here. And thinking about this leadership mistake of leading in such a way that it creates, a feeling of.
Unsettledness in the congregation. I think you, you probably need to step back, take a break. And then at that point in time after you've taken a break, you really need to, if it's a public mistake, I think you need to, to on to own that publicly, you need to talk about that and repent to the congregation.
If, if you made public statements like our, our good brother on YouTube here, think. That if you leave during that time, you may not have done the hard work that will grow the muscle to help you become a more tender-hearted shepherd leader. And so, that would kind of be my, my thoughts there don't leave.
When, when you've made a mistake, I oftentimes, you know, when you, when you make [00:16:00]mistakes, you just wanna run and start over somewhere, but you can't right. it'll follow you and you won't learn the tough lessons that you need to.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, you gotta learn through those types of moments and, get again, get outside counsel, get a mentor, get a coach, get somebody that's gonna help you. as you grow. In those areas. alright. So after disconcerting, so disqualifying a step below disqualifying would be disconcerting. and then the third one is something that's really just kind of disappointing.
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm
JimBo Stewart: something talk to
Bob Bickford: Yeah, this is, this would be when you're leading and someone feels let down by you, they're just disappointed. Right? They they've had an expectation, something that you're doing Mrs. The mark, that
somehow.
JimBo Stewart: I feel like this was a fairly daily occurrence for me as a pastor.
Bob Bickford: Yes. So I would think that, no, this is not the, you didn't preach on this topic on this particular Sunday, [00:17:00] right? and I'm frustrated by you. This is more in the long, along the lines of a, a person who expected something different from you than they received. And so there's a disappointment, right? And now this is hard.
And, and please don't hear me say that we are. To try to meet everybody's expectations, cuz there's just no way we can do that. But this one, this one reminds me of a time when, I was, early on in the replant, we were probably about two and a half, three years and, and I was working with a group of leaders and we were getting ready to do a leadership retreat.
These were potential elder candidates. And so. I was trying to divide up responsibilities and have these guys take responsibility. And so one guy said, Hey, I know over a retreat center where we can go. And, I think it'd be great retreat center, so awesome. I said, can you make that happen? Yeah. Great. I'll make it happen.
So. I was working on the content of what we were supposed to do [00:18:00] and the schedule and communication, and then as well, handling all the other things that I was handling. But after that experience, and after that retreat getaway, he just came to me and said, man, I was really disappointed that you didn't handle more of the logistics for the retreat, like the getaway, the, you know, calling and making sure we, you know, you know, we knew how much it would cost and all this kinda stuff.
And so in my mind, I thought he was handling. In his mind, he thought as a leader, I should handle that. And as someone who is, has a full tease full-time job, I've got a full-time job. We're trying to work on this thing together. He felt that I should have born more of the weight. So he was disappointed.
Right. So I had to have a conversation with him. He was like, man, I'm sorry. When, when we have the conversation and you suggested the retreat center, I thought that in my mind, in my understanding. My thinking was that you were gonna handle all of those logistics and that you were gonna let our treasurer know, you know, here's the check.
Here's how much it costs, all those sorts of things. [00:19:00] Right. He had just the opposite expectation. so I think there's, there's a challenge there. in ministry that we're going to disappoint people. So one of the things that guards against that is clear communication, right? Making sure that you understand, okay, who's handling this, what does this mean?
And clarifying and all that. So that was just a simple lesson for me just to go, okay. We should have had, more consistent communication on this. I should have said, what do you have? What I have, do you have time to do this, et C. Right. And so, so our relationship went to a, a little bit of a challenging place there.
And so I simply just had to say, man, I'm sorry, like when we were talking about this, this is what I thought was gonna happen. I thought you were gonna cover this and then I'm sorry. that I wasn't more clear about that. So we, we struggle with that. So, there be there be regular moments. In ministry where you disappoint people, it's just gonna happen.
Right. And so some of it's fair, some of it's unfair, you can't meet everybody's expectations, but where it's clear that you have let someone down that you've missed the mark, that you've not communicated well, that [00:20:00] you've disappointed, man, own that apologize for that. Learn from it. Have a conversation about how that might not happen again.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think there's a real temptation in moments like that for all of us to kind of get defensive and really. Make sure we have the best face we can coming out of it. really at any of these levels of blowing it that we've talked about, that's kind of the temptation is how do I, how do I, how do I do damage recovery?
How do I make sure that I don't come out of this looking really bad? and I think you just have to be really careful with that. That's I don't think that's the right, beginning point of any of these processes is it's. I think. Our intuitive, our instinctive beginnings point of the process of how do I make sure I save face here?
I would encourage myself and our listeners. I mean, don't, don't immediately go to how do I say face, but I think let's immediately go to, what is the truth here? What is, what is true here? What is, what is [00:21:00] true of, of, and, and understanding that my intentions and others' perceptions are not always the same thing.
And when those are not clear, Then I at least have to own that, that wasn't clear, right? I'll I at least have to own. Okay. I, in my mind, in my reality, this is kind of a different situation than what it was in yours. And, I'm sorry for that. I'm sorry for how that came across. or for being unclear, and just owning what you can, you don't now don't, some people are more people pleaser type and they'll own too much.
and I'd say don't don't own something that's not yours. You, you don't need to take on too much because that, it also isn't the truth. Right. And so, man, I would encourage you let's figure out what's true. Let's, let's try to remove let's let's let's address emotions that can get involved in this because that does need to be addressed.
And let's affirm, Hey, emotions are normal and it's understand that you feel that way. but at some point we have to move to what is actually true [00:22:00] here. and let's work from.
mm-hmm
Bob Bickford: mm-hmm yeah. Don't own everything. Don't own nothing. You have to own something. Right? What, what's your part of it? And so I think that's, that's real key. So here's, here's some general, I think, encouragements, as you think about when you blow it versus connect with those who've been hurt or offend. Right. If you've got somebody who knows who, who you are becoming aware of, or have become aware of, that's offended, you know, the, the passage in Matthew five that talks about if you are offering a gift at the alter and you know that your brother has something against you, go, go and be reconciled to him.
And so I think that that's important as to connect with those who Haven heard most of the most of the time, Jimbo, I think. We wanna run away from people who have, issues with us. Uh, we want to, not have to have that messy and hard conversation. And so I think it's, it's, uh, imperative that we walk towards difficult conversations and not run from them.
And I think that's a, a, that's a great demonstration of a [00:23:00] practical of, of practical discipleship that we're not gonna run from conflict. We're gonna engage in it. And we're. We're gonna connect with one another and, and have good conversations about hard things. The other thing was correct. A misstep or wrong or hurtful actions with an unqualified apology.
right. Have you ever gotten an apology that somebody apologizes to you and it's like, well, if you could just would, if you just would've stopped before you told me all the reasons why you are now qualifying, why this happened,
like you have allergies,
you didn't get enough.
JimBo Stewart: but this is your fault.
Bob Bickford: Yes. You know, this wouldn't have happened.
I'm sorry that you're mad at me. This would've happened. If you hadn't done such and such, you know, that sort of thing. Right. So, or just blaming it on something, you just own it. Right. And just, just, exercise and unqualified apology. The other thing, as I would say is men really spend some time with the Lord and consider for you.
What happened? Why did it happen? Why did I respond the [00:24:00] way that I did. And how do I need to ask, more questions to really unlayer this for me? So there's a, there's a thing called the five whys. And we'll put this in the show notes, but an executive at Toyota, basically when there would be a problem on the production floor, he would go down and he would say, why are we missing our, goals and completing our assignments and objectives of producing these vehicles?
and so there would be one question and then he would ask, why is that happening? Right. And then he would continually ask a why, to get to the bottom line of understanding, what is the real issue here? Why are we experiencing what we are experiencing here? And most of the conflict Jimbo is as a layered response to something that is really occurring deeper underneath.
Right. So I think that, if we could spend some time thinking about the times that we've blown it and just ask why and the first response, ask another why, [00:25:00] and then another why and another why I think it'll lead us to uncovering some things that we not, not normally, discern. And so it could be fear.
It could be anger. It could be frustration. It could be, a sense of, you know, you as a repenter you feel entitled like, like the Lord has called me here and why aren't these people listening to me. Right. And so I just got angry and, and was direct and I could have been more patient rather than, than, um, just exploding on someone.
So all these sorts of things I think people need to, to, to think about. And, and it's important to ask the five Ys. And then I would say this, lastly is don't be paralyzed by a mistake, right?
JimBo Stewart: Mm-hmm
Yeah.
Bob Bickford: Man you're gonna make 'em you're not gonna be able to lead without offending. You probably won't be able to communicate without misstating.
You're probably gonna even do something, that is wrong. So just own it, own it,
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah.
Bob Bickford: deal with it and then move forward and, and don't be paralyzed by it.
JimBo Stewart: Absolutely man. I think these are all really good things to consider [00:26:00] and worth diving deeper into. we're all gonna blow it from time to time. and none of us are immune to that. So don't attempt just to say face, but. Consider is this a disqualifying, a disconcerting, or just disappointing and then figure out why, why, why are we dealing with this issue?
And what do we need to do next about it? How do we move forward? What does it look like to, to move in the right direction? I mean, that's what repentance is, right. Is turning from the wrong direction and moving in the right direction. And so how do we, what, what do we need to do? What do we need to own in order to help things move forward and own own your part, don't own nothing.
Don't own everything, but own your part. Get to the truth of what's going on. Sometimes we're gonna blow it. And it's in those moments, we have an opportunity to really show our dependence and trust in the Lord for redemption of ourselves or the situation to redeem the [00:27:00] relationship to redeem the, the. And everything that we're going through, guys, thank you so much for being a part of the bootcamp today.
if you blow it and you need to process it, reach out to us, let us know.
Today the guys are talking ministry in the rural setting with none other than Andy Addis who serves as the Volunteer Coordinator for Rural Strategy for the Replant team at The North American Mission Board.
Here are some interesting trends related to Rural Ministry * People are leaving the major cities and heading to other areas * More people are considering or have moved to rural areas
Andy gave us three markers of rural ministry * Vocational identity * Ministry Isolation * Low resources
Jump in and listen to the full EP as Andy provides some great insights into why Rural ministry matters and is something that you prayerfully should consider.
Mentioned Links * Resolution One on Rural Ministry * The Replant Hub * The Rural Pastor
Our great partners at one eighty digital can help you, regardless of your context, to help you get your church website up and running. Contact them today and let them know you are a bootcamp listener.
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] All right here we are back at the bootcamp, Bob. I hope you're ready for the next episode. we are both coming off of some good time, uh, away with family as we talked about in the last episode. And so I, I just got back from South Carolina, you had a little visit to Florida. We had some time away with the fam and firehouse subs at universal getting to speak at the firehouse subs event.
and now we're diving back into, one of the nation's leading podcast on church revitalization, replanting, uh, according to page 97 of the SBC book of reports, and milking that as far as I can, as I can take it, because it's, it's the one big accolade we have.
Bob Bickford: I think so Jimbo. I, I do wanna rewind though. I want to ask, did you get a free, uh, subs for life card at the firehouse sub convention? Or did you mention that your favorite sub is an Italian sub that like break that down for me? Did, did this, did [00:01:00] this turn into free sandwiches in any form or fashion for.
Oh, Hmm.
JimBo Stewart: in any form or fashion? Yes. no firehouse subs. it did not lead to any firehouse subs. It was a catered event. It was pretty, it was a pretty cool event. The first night of the firehouse subs, family gathering as they call it, or family reunion, was a big wild night of, Olympic games with. With like sack racing, huge tricycle races and, basketball and acts throwing.
And all three of my kids competed, trip competed with the adults because he's 15. They put him with the adults and trip tied for third place on the basketball game and then lost the runoff game cash tied for third place on tricycle races. And one was, was, uh, one his. His, playoff there and tricycle races.
So, and there was a lot of free food that night. We were the card printing [00:02:00] to get our hotel cards at the, at the place we stayed. Was delayed. And so they gave us a free breakfast voucher, which was a just hotel breakfast buffet, which was awesome because I looked on the menu and it was like $28 ahead, which we, would've not paid for our family to eat breakfast there.
And so for about 150 bucks, we of coupon voucher, we, so we had some free food for sure. but no firehouse subs food actually.
Bob Bickford: All right, but we're still fans of firehouse and, uh, check 'em out.
JimBo Stewart: Absolutely. We recommend firehouse. I recommend the Italian. I put that, they asked me to write a bio for the section that I spoke at. And so in the bio I wrote the Italian was my favorite sub at the firehouse subs.
speaking of the Booker report saying that we are one of the nation's leading podcast on church revitalization, replanting, there was something else that happened at SBC this year, that the first resolution.
Was an [00:03:00] affirmation of the rural mission field. And so in response to that, we have brought the rural guru, the expert of all things, rural the megasite rural pastor, the multisite rural pastor with the nation's leading podcast, brand new on rural pastoring and leadership. who gets, uh, his own seat, his own table at the Lifeway breakfast.
Andy adds welcome to the bootcamp. Andy's the.
Andy Addis: I love the accolades, but I think you have no substance to basis for making at least 90% of those claims. I just wanna make sure that we're all aware of that.
Bob Bickford: Neither does anybody.
Andy Addis: Well, it's wonderful to be with you guys. And yes, we are very excited, about that resolution that, uh, that was actually written the year before, uh, but made it to, the, the [00:04:00]floor this past year and to see that attention, so, yep. we're bringing rural back right.
Bob Bickford: Andy. Tell us about the rural landscape since COVID hit and now we're coming out of it. Like we. Often having discussions about sub suburbs and cities and that sort of thing. Tell us about the rural landscape.
Andy Addis: Yeah, it's been really interesting because rural has been, uh, in ministry often a stepping stone over the years. It's like, you can get your start there, but you're always trying to climb the ladder up to a, a more urban setting. But since COVID, there has been this return culturally to remote work. I guess not turn, but a, a turn to, remote work, a little bit more of a disconnect and, and people decided, Hey, if, infection becomes a thing in the past, maybe a little distance isn't too bad.
So there's really been, An entrance into rurality. That has been very interesting to watch it. As a matter of fact, it happened before COVID. There was an article in the Atlantic weekly that talked about the [00:05:00] five largest Metro cities had actually declined over the last three years seeing, um, kind of a, a return to some urban lifestyle.
So there, there has been this population, I wouldn't say Boone or anything, but there has been a drift, from some urban life to, to rural life. And with that what's been really exciting on, on my end is that for the first time, in a long time, I'm talking to a lot of young, ministry types who are being led toward rural from the beginning, that, that, that it's not an option or where they have to go, but they have a desire, to do work and out of the way places.
And that's, that's pretty.
JimBo Stewart: So you talk about, this not necessarily a boom, but a shift back to rural life. How would you, I know this is a question you get and it's not an easy answer. How do you define, what does it mean? Rural, like when you say rural at, at what point does that, boom, turn something rural into suburban or into urban.
I mean, what's the delineation.
Andy Addis: Yeah, well, um, [00:06:00] no, uh, you know, I'm not gonna take your bait and get, What you don't understand is that in rural America, trying to define rural is the quintessential jello to a wall. Uh, E everybody's got a different definition. It's like, well, my truck's louder than your truck. So we're rural. That's. The way that works.
so if, if you define it based on, sparse sparsity versus density of population, that's how the government likes to do that. So they, they have strict, guidelines for how they define rural. There are others who define rural, based on a distance that you have to travel for resources. So like if your town has the Walmart, it can't be.
The towns that are coming to yours because you have the Walmart, those are rural, what I've found, uh, that, that we have done with the rural pastor podcast and with our, our rural strategies. Is that rural? Just like we've always done in any mysiological sense. Rurality is a mindset. It's a people group.
There are rural people in [00:07:00] communities of 10, 20, 30, 40,000 people, uh, that, and they're legitimately rural. So lemme give you an example. A lot of people would say that I'm not in a rural context cuz I'm in Hutchinson, Kansas, but Hutchinson, Kansas has Walmart. Atwood tractor supply and Orland. Now that's a rural mindset.
I mean, if you're, if you just drive down the main street, we don't have anything else. We don't have a target. we don't have big name this or that, but we have three tractor supply stores. So there's a mindset in that community and it is a rural mindset and we're servicing rural communities. So, you can define it by numbers.
You can define it by resources. You can define it by economic. But I think the best way to define it is by mindset. What does a, a rural people group look like? They think differently. they think communally. And so we define rurality based on, a people group that experience and enjoy rural life.
Bob Bickford: you give us some of the thoughts, or some of the [00:08:00] preferences, just some of the, the mindset of the rural. context, you know, it, it's hard to give us a, like a complete list, but just some of the top ones that you've experienced in that those who are listening to podcasts that might be thinking about moving into a rural area.
What are some of the things that if they're the new guy in town, like what are some of the things they need to know about the rural mindset?
Andy Addis: Man that that's a, that's a great question. And there's also some huge geographic differences too, because rural south versus rural Northeast versus rural, uh, Northwest, I mean, the they're just different. Um, so for instance, let me give you I'm Midwest, right? I'm uh, I'm in Kansas. And so one of the, one of the things you would expect if you move to the Midwest is that you're gonna think everybody is so nice.
It's this Midwestern niceness, but the problem is that's, as far as it goes, everybody will be nice to you now stay away from us, that it, it is our job to be pleasant. Should I run into you, but I don't want anything to do with you that, that is that, that is a [00:09:00] rural niceness in the south. it goes beyond niceness to, uh, polite insults, right?
Uh, where. well, aren't you just so sweet means that was the stupidest thing I've ever heard. and it's just different ways that are communicated rurally, but there are three standards by which if you were to enter into ministry, in a rural setting, almost in any geographic setting, Dallas Powell, uh, a CPC for a north American commiss board wrote a paper and he outlined this, and I know it's in other places, but I always quote him because it's my favorite source for this.
There are three. Kind of, uh, markers of rural ministry and they are, that you'll deal with vocational identity because so many of the folks in rural ministry are Covo BVO or volunteer. Very, the full time is not the majority second. Isolation ministries lonely as it is. but, when legitimately you're the only evangelical pastor in a community of a hundred, or a thousand, that isolation gets real and gets real, real [00:10:00] fast and then low resources.
And this is for a community, not just the church, but like I remember when I was, uh, in college and, uh, doing an intern pastor and a youth pastor, we had to drive three hours to get to a really bad concert. I mean, the, if you, if you wanted to enjoy part of the Christian culture, it was, it was not, it, it, you just couldn't do it.
and so they're low resources, but those three things, if you, and, and I'm really selling it now, aren't I, right. You come to rural ministry, you'll feel lonely. You won't know who you are and you won't have anything to do. but that is part of the challenge of rural ministry. And what that does is it really puts you at a place where. I, I love this. If you are in rural ministry and you're making headway, you're really making a difference. There's not a lot of cultural Christianity in truly rural settings.
JimBo Stewart: I can vouch that. We for sure have some rural audience with the replant bootcamp and have even had, uh, a guest or two outta the rural context. We've had [00:11:00] one guest. That, was a pastor that came on while he was in the middle of deer hunting, and used his phone to come on as a guest with us, we had another guest that is his nickname is big country and he had to, drive to, uh, several miles down the road to a friend's house to park in the driveway to borrow their Satter satellite.
Internet wifi so that he could connect with us. and so,
for sure, we, yeah, we've got, we've got some of your people listening to the replant bootcamp.
Andy Addis: Listen, what we should do sometime is we can just go through what it signs that you're in a rural church. I literally have been behind in the, drive through bank line behind a riding lawnmower. And I've been through a McDonald's drive through behind a horse and buggy. I mean, you have not lived until you've worried about that.
Getting on the front of your car.
That
JimBo Stewart: Oh, [00:12:00] I remember one time I texted you, Andy, cuz I was doing a consult with a church, most rural church I've ever done a consult with and I met the guy at the church and he said, Hey, do you wanna go grab a cup of coffee at cracker barrel? And I said, yeah, I'd love to, uh, he said, well just follow me. And so I got in my car and I followed him and 45 minutes later we got to cracker barrel.
Andy Addis: that's what we call low resources. If you have to drive 45 minutes to a cracker barrel, you're doing rural.
JimBo Stewart: Absolutely.
Bob Bickford: let's do a little bit of flip side and say, dude, what are some of the advantages for a pastor? Coming to a rural congregation and serving in that context, what are some of the joys and some of
Andy Addis: Well, yeah, the, and this is the, the reason that you do it, first of all, rural ministry is primarily relational. So if you love relationships and, and you, and you move at the speed of trust, right. then rural ministry is a great place to be because I, legitimately. When I go to the Walmart because [00:13:00] we are the town with the Walmart.
It's not a 10 minute in and out thing. It's a, it's a 90 minute commitment cuz you're gonna stop every other aisle and we're gonna pray with somebody and we're gonna hear about what's going on in this neck of the woods. And and so it's very relational. The second thing is, and I love this.
I've got some staff at our church Crosspoint that, that don't appreciate this phrase, but I'm gonna use it anyway, cause I've been using it. And I just going to, but in rural ministry, excellence is relative, what it takes to pull off, um, ministry that will get people to think it's quality in Kansas city is not what you need in Joi, Kansas.
it legitimately. I, I, if you get a couple of plasma screens and a decent sound system, I mean, you have just become the high tech church in town. You know what I mean? so I'm not saying that the bar is set low. What I'm saying is that it's easier to achieve excellence, with less resources in, in [00:14:00] many of these places.
And the, the best part of that is your church feels value. they have pride in doing some of those things. Have you ever been to a small outof the way church and they wanted to show you something, that they had just put in, they had just installed or they just started doing, and, and your, your thought was, man, this would never fly where, where we are.
But they were just as proud as could be of it. Well, that's because in rural ministry, that means something in downtown, wherever, or it means something on the fringe, of this place. So you it's very relational. you really do get to make an impact and see it up close and personal. And the ability to do excellence it is, more attainable, In that environment and gimme, let me take one more here as well. Part of our personal, goal, our missiology is that we want to tithe. Every community means that wherever we have a Crosspoint location, we want to see 10% of the, the community change, which now if you're in Fort worth, That's gonna be an amazing work of [00:15:00] God, right.
But if I'm in a community, we've got several of our locations where it's 2,600 people. You have 200 people coming to church there you're real close to having 10% of the city. And when you have 10% of the city in your ministry, you are no longer at church in that community. You are that community's church.
and the influence that you have is monumental on everything. Not just, uh, not just as a church, but with the school board. With the city council with the entire community, uh, you real in rural ministry, you have the opportunity to actually move the needle on, on culture, which is, uh, just a, a great feel and a great position, huge responsibility for those rural pastors, because of that.
JimBo Stewart: I love that. I think the emphasis on relational, uh, is something we try to push a lot here on the bootcamp, talking about the importance of building relationships, leading change, relationally, shepherding people, relationally, in that. Excellence should never supersede the [00:16:00]importance of relational ministry, but it also shouldn't be ignored.
And I love that kind of that rural mindset that you speak of. Facilitates that and allows for that. One of the questions I had is, is we, we see isolation as an issue really across the board for pastors. I mean, in any context. And so we often encourage guys, Hey man, build friendships, build relationships with other pastors, uh, because they, they get what you're going through.
They can, relate to your concerns and issues. But I've found when I get in some of these like really isolated, rural context, man, that's hard. That's not for me. Uh, as a pastor in an urban context, man, I can find another pastor real quick. I mean I have a list, a really long list of pastors. I could go have coffee with today and it wouldn't take me 10 minutes to get to the coffee shop.
Wouldn't take them 10 minutes and we could all meet together. and so talk to us about how, how do you, what advice do you have for. Boot campers that [00:17:00] are a little more isolated. They're not as close to other pastors that they can build relationships with, but they're still, they're still something important to building those friendships and relationships.
Andy Addis: Man. I, I think that's such a good word. And, and the, the number one thing you have to be is intentional. Uh, you're not gonna fall into quality relationships in rural ministry. Uh, you, you have to make a decision to go out and, and seek those. can I, can I do a little plug here? One of the things that I think I've been invited on here for is to help promote the fact that we are trying to combat some, some of that isolation by starting a new community.
It's, uh, the rural pastor podcast.com and, uh, it, it is a podcast that I have the privilege of hosting and I have a regular volunteer guest co-host with me in mark Clifton. Uh, and oh dude, he is. Not only hilarious, but the, the wisdom in this guy and the purpose is that we're promoting, the whole rural mentality.
We're validating that [00:18:00] role. And we're trying to create a community, because the, truth is we can't teleport yet. And, uh, rural guys are by vocational. They can't take every other weekend off or, or three days off in the week to go see somebody. So they're gonna have to intentionally connect with the community lines that are available.
And so we're trying to create some of that there. but additionally, uh, one of the things that, I guess, you know, some people are gonna like this. Some people won't, but I just was at a funeral for, um, a friend of. Who, uh, he was a pastor and, uh, he died of cancer and, uh, funeral of course was a sad but joyous occasion.
But what was interesting was that there was a Southern Baptist pastor, which was his tribe. There was an assembly of God pastor, and, uh, they were in a Methodist church, and. doing this. And so I think in rurality, you, you have to be able to open your arms up to a little more ecumenical friendships.
Uh, you don't have to agree with everything. Matter of fact, one of the jokes was, that when mark passed, he knew that his friend from the ag church would be [00:19:00] doing the message. Well, he's Southern Baptist. Friend's ag goes, I really want him to talk, but here's what you can't talk. And I thought that was great, that he gave directives ahead of time, but, but that just showed the value of their friendship.
So, I think you have to intentionally look for, you have to pursue those. You have to value them. and then the other is you have to make yourself available. The one thing that can happen is in isolation. Rural guys value we'll we'll fight, about whose town is smaller or who has less. And it's kind of a, a pride thing.
Well, you can't let that seep into that isolation part of it because like, well, man, I haven't had a conversation with anybody. I haven't gone out with anybody and I, I, my, I haven't dated my wife and how long, cuz we can't boy, you can't do that. You have to intentionally stay healthy on the relationship side and whether it's connecting online or connecting with some guys that are of similar.
Values, that are close. you just have to be intent.
Bob Bickford: Andy. Tell us a little bit about, your heart for the rural pastor. It, I know it comes through in, in a [00:20:00] lot of our conversations that we get to have with you as in your role as a, a volunteer coordinator of rural strategy for the replant team of the north American commission board. Just that. Passion comes through, but just tell us about the guys who are in your view.
When you think about the podcasts, the resources, the, the things that you produce, who who's, the guy in your mind that you're really hoping to encourage and, and help out.
Andy Addis: My goodness. I, I love the guy. Let, let me describe a guy. That's gonna describe all kinds of guys. he, comes home after working all day at a construction. to greet his kids, uh, who are playing video games. they, they hug his neck and he sends him out. So he can go see his wife who just got done working all day as the receptionist at the school, because they gotta have the two incomes to support the fact that now he's gotta walk down the hall after he kisses her coming home and sit in the makeshift.
Third bedroom office, where he's gonna pound out a message for Sunday morning, Sunday evening, and do the Wednesday night youth group. And this [00:21:00] guy is only getting paid a stipend. he's got to keep his other full-time job because that's how he ensures the family. Uh, he's driving a 1990s truck, but he does it every week.
Because he loves the Lord and he believes that God has got him there for a purpose. and that's the kind of guy, because he's given everything, he's given his life to places that everybody else is flying over. Um, and, and he's volunteering to coach at the high school and he is showing up to every community event because he wants to make an impact.
He's throwing spaghetti on every. He has ever seen, just seeing what might stick. That's the guy he's burning the candle at both ends. and, and given everything that he's got, and I wanna do everything that I can to resource, to love on and to applaud to pat on the back and to pour into that kind of guy, uh, because no one else is doing what they're doing and no one else is lifting them up.
And I think that it's time that there's some of us who lift those guys. Sorry.
JimBo Stewart: That's so [00:22:00] good. As you're describing that it's really not all that different from the, the missionaries that we champion all across the world. Right. That we send to, the middle of nowhere of these other countries. And, and they're dealing with a lot of these same things. Uh, although they're usually, I mean, these days.
Most of 'em aren't full-time just missionaries anymore. Right? They're they're by vocational or convocational of some kind, that's the way we've kind of shifted our international mission strategy and we're sending them over there to, to do some other vocation while they're on mission. And they're.
Extremely isolated and they don't have the same access to resources. And so one of the things I've heard you talk about, I'd love for you to share real briefly is, is even not only a shift of how do we have resources like the rural pastor podcast and the replant hub and things like that. But what would it look like for churches in suburban urban context to think of the rural mission field as a mission field that they need to [00:23:00] partner.
Andy Addis: Yeah. You know, that's, that's a whole brand new world because we've always thought about missions as being over there. so let me just brief to, to do this briefly. Let me explain, who we are as a church. Now, I I'm coming to you with my hat of the rural pastor podcast and the, the Nam rural strategist.
but I also pastor a rural multisite video driven. Rural multisite so I know there's a word in there that offended at least half of you, right? Video driven. Multisite some, but, but just bear with me on this. The reason that we do it is that we find that as a church, we are able to plant in locations, in ways, and in, in places.
And with guys that couldn't be done if they weren't part of a network like this. so our guys don't preach every weekend. Most of them don't want to. But they are released to do 40 to 60 hours a week of, uh, actual discipling in mentoring, because somebody else is carrying that way. They don't have to do the books, because the central services [00:24:00] does the books for them.
And, and, and therefore we can hire a high school biology teacher, to do this part-time gig because God's called 'em to it and they wanna do it. But they can't do it full time there. What I'm getting at is that there are churches who, if they would multiply their resources and they would see themselves as sending, and strengthening and starting, that they could personally have that input.
So, so let me give you an example. One of our locations, their mission trip this summer for their youth group was a two week tour through the state of Kansas, where they went to three D. Of the other churches in the network to either do facility repair or backyard Bible clubs. and, they were legitimately helping in rural places within the network where the needs were known in doing real mission work.
And so I love that Jimbo that you just said that it's kind of like they're the missionaries they absolutely are. And, and we need to see that a lot of these places. Where guys are going and, uh, and they have to sacrifice so much to do that. It's not a career move. It's not a [00:25:00] step up. They are missionaries called and doing an effective work.
And that's why we get a chance to support them like this.
JimBo Stewart: Man, it's been so great to have you with us, Andy, to the boot campers, just to recap a little bit, some of the three things that really, become a part of rural ministry is struggle with vocational identity. Isolation access to resources, but there are benefits that it's primarily relational, that excellence is relative and it is truly a mission field.
And so if you're feeling called to that, if you're in that mission field, you wanna know more about it. we can't encourage you enough from the bootcamp to go to the rural pastor podcast.com, and check out that, check out replant hub.com. Another project that. Highlight on here that Andy is a part of working towards, and, man, if you wanna know more, just let us know.
And we'd love to dive into that with you. Thanks for being with us today, Andy.
Andy Addis: Man. It's been a blessing. Thank you guys for thinking about all the guys out there, serving and out of the way places we all appreciate it.[00:26:00]
Hope you had a great 4th of July-we're back at it this week talking about something that every Pastor, Replanter and Revitalizer needs to get a handle on: Formal and Informal Permission. What is it? Check out the definitions and discussion below.
Formal Permission: the act of garnering approval via a recognized and agreed upon process for a decision or action. Like these examples below. * Bylaws * Policies * Committee meetings * Business meetings
Informal Permission: the leadership skill and insight which recognizes the power of influence and influencers and knows that forward progress often moves at the speed of relationships * Every church has influencers, gatekeepers – they are the ones who everyone looks at when a discussion turns to a point of decision or is considering killing a sacred cow. * These aren’t necessarily “problem” people – they are often faithful process oriented folks who have made the hard decisions or assumed the important role of keeping the church legal and alive.
Keep this in mind:
You can’t ignore the processes and expect to have the support of the congregation
You have to know the processes and policies and work within them (even if you want to change them)
You gain the opportunity to change them – by working in them and then suggesting or proposing a better way * Is this decision making structure leading to the accomplishment of our mission? * Is this decision making structure hindering the accomplishment of our mission? * How might we more effectively make decisions on important matters?
Forward progress often moves at the speed of relationship and trust.
Need some help with Bylaws? Check out the Bootcamp EP 92 with the Baptist Bouncer, Craig Culbreth to brush up on your bylaws skill.
Make the decision today to take your church website up to the next level by contacting our great partners at One Eighty Digital. They can have you up and running in no time.
Show notes powered by Descript are an approximation of the verbal content, consult podcast audio for accuracy and detail.
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp, Bob. I hope you're ready for the next episode on one of the nation's leading podcasts or church replanting, according to the Southern Baptist convention, 2022 book of reports, I'm gonna milk that for all it's worth.
Bob Bickford: You are man all the way until maybe the next following year. Whoa, that's fun though, man.
JimBo Stewart: So I don't even know if anybody's gonna listen to this this week is everybody's gonna be, they'll catch up on it at some point. we are batch recording here, ahead of time because we're all gonna be on the road, all kinds of places in. So this one should come out. July 6th, just a few days after independence day.
we are still a little unclear on our July 4th plans. Normally our tradition is to go to my SI oldest sister's house in Aiken, South Carolina, just north of Augusta, Georgia. And spend it there. They've got a great house in a, in a [00:01:00] great neighborhood. That's like the neighborhood does this fun neighborhood firework show around the lake.
And it's just awesome. And, but with everything going on with my youngest sister and her brain tumor, it is possible if not likely that we will end up in Arkansas spending some time there, with her. And so we will either be in South Carolina or Arkansas or on our way, probably on our way back from one of those two, or just gotten back when this podcast airs we're we're in the world heirs.
Where, where in the world will the Bickford's be for July
4th.
Bob Bickford: Jimbo. We'll be right here in Webster groves, Missouri. And that's one of the few weeks that we are actually in, uh, in. And, we've got some, some vacation and then, some other things are, they're taking us out, but you know, Webster, groves does the fourth. They do a really big parade on the fourth and, firework shows and all this kinda stuff.
Well, it's not gone without some controversy here in the fair Burg of Webster. yeah, we, so every, every [00:02:00] year there's some kind of uproar about some parade entran. a float, people walking and you you're okay to walk in the parade. As long as you have a culturally approved message. Should you stray outside of those bounds, then there will be articles written about you in the newspaper and in the Facebook communities.
And you might even make it to the city council meetings where people ask that you not be allowed to March in the parade again, if you have a message contrary. So, so you just never know what, how, how the webs are preed is gonna go this year. I, I imagine this could be a lot of fireworks before the fireworks.
If you know what I'm saying, so my youngest is coming in town. her roommate from college is gonna come in town and, and, uh, so we're gonna do the parade. We'll probably do some cooking out in the backyard. We, we probably will invite some neighbors over and then, we'll catch the fireworks. And so, that'll be, be a time.
And so we're trying to train Daisy, the pup. She hasn't been mentioned on a couple of [00:03:00]podcasts, But Daisy, the pup, we're trying to make sure that she's gonna be desensitized to fireworks our other dog about had a heart attack. Every time fireworks would, come around. But Daisy doesn't seem to be scared of anything Jimbo, which is
pretty good.
So
JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
So how do you, how do you, how do you, train a dog to be ready for fireworks? Do you like wake them up with,
Bob Bickford: Pretty much no, according to the Internet's Jimbo, what you do is you find a fireworks, display that's online, maybe YouTube or something, and then you, you stream it over your Bluetooth speakers and you just crank it up and you just.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, that is much less involved or dangerous than what immediately came into my brain.
Bob Bickford: and then while that big booming sounds going off, you just feed the dog treats and speak in a nice pleasant voice to the dog while, while the fireworks are going off. So we're, we're probably in, uh, entering into some days where our window of desensitization needs to [00:04:00]engage at full speed.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah. Here on the west side of Jacksonville, the only controversy is, was that fireworks or was that gunshots?
Bob Bickford: Yes
JimBo Stewart: so the game we start playing in late June, early July. West Jacksonville. So one of the things you talked about to, to transition us beautifully into our topic for today, you were talking about the parade and Webster groves and how there is a formal and informal process of who who can get to be in the parade.
And if you upset everyone informally, you might get reprimanded formally in
Bob Bickford: Yeah. Yeah.
JimBo Stewart: session. Man we've been diving into, I would say almost a master's level, discussions here recently on organizational health, church health leadership of the church. And, as we are leading change, one of the things that you brought up, offline as we were talking about [00:05:00] this together is there really is kind of two ways that we get permission to move.
And we kind of, there are informal. Formal ways to get permission, to get things going. so talk to us about what is the difference? what are the difference between those two things?
Bob Bickford: Yeah, let me give you a definition for formal permission. So formal formal permission is the act of garnering approval via a recognized and agreed upon process for a decision or action. Right? So that's kind of a textbook sounding type of definition, but this is bylaws jumbo. It is policies and procedures.
It's committee, meaning, guidelines. It is business meaning guidelines, right? So we are in a. We're working towards a particular task and we have to decide how we're going to decide something,
right. and it's a couple weeks ago, that's what we experienced in the Southern Baptist convention, you know, and there would have this thing called point of order, right.
Where people would [00:06:00] say point of order, I think we're doing something that goes against the way we are supposed to. Conduct a business or have discussions or make decisions. And so there would be a ruling and people would be, uh, point of order. Well taken. Yes. Thank you for pointing that out. Or they would receive a ruling point of order, not well taken.
Right. Which means, yeah, that didn't, that's not gonna fly. Right. And so what it enabled us to do, whether we agreed with it or not is enabled us to do what we were called there to do, to, to move forward with the decision. So in a church, Jimbo, here's the deal. You really have to understand re planters, most declining churches operate by business meeting principles and Robert's rules of order and they do business meetings and you cannot ignore the process of decision making and expect the support of the congregation.
Like you just can't do it. Right. You just can't go outside to those GA bounds. Right. And it's not gonna work.
JimBo Stewart: Hey and give a shout. I wanna give a shout out. We should put in the show notes. last year, around the time as [00:07:00] convention, we had on the Baptist bouncer himself, Dr. Craig Colbert, who is a Floridian here, works for the Florida Baptist convention and is one of the parliamentarians for the Southern Baptist convention.
Uh he's. He is the guy who stands behind you and taps on your shoulder. If you take too long. And, he is a friend of the bootcamp. We had an episode with him last year and he walks through how to
Bob Bickford: Yeah, I love what he just talked about. There, there is a, there's a, there's a way to do it in a way that helps everybody move forward, but there's not a rigidity in it that we would expect in, in the sense of. There's he provided some great guidance. So we'll, we'll definitely link those show notes.
The other thing I would say is, rep planers have to know the process and policies and work within them, even if you want to change them, right. Especially if you want to change them. So, one of the things that is great about. Going to replant is [00:08:00] you get to figure out all the things that need to be worked on.
So you never show up at the office and go, I'm not sure really what I'm supposed to do. right. You just, you just never show up and go,
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Yeah. I recently, overheard two church planters talking to each other one had been a church planter. I mean, I, I don't know what point you quit being a church planter and just become a pastor.
Bob Bickford: I don't know, we need a line there. We've gotta define that, but it's, it's outta the purview of our, uh, it's not in order.
JimBo Stewart: yeah, so one of those, one was a friend of mine. Who's been a church. He planted a church. Eight years ago. And the other one was brand new, who, who started right for the pandemic. And he, it hasn't or right in the pandemic and it hasn't grown a lot yet. And he said to what I would call the legacy planner.
he said I'm at that point of church planting where I don't have enough members for me to do a whole lot. So I'd love to just go get coffee and chat for a while if you want. And it like blew my mind. I was like, I, I, I, I cannot remember a moment of pastoring where I've. I, I got nothing to do.
Bob Bickford: Oh man.
JimBo Stewart: I can't like my daughter asked me the other day, what do you do when you get bored?
Dad? And I was like, man, I, [00:01:00] I don't know that I can remember the last time I was bored. so yeah, I mean, as a re planter, there's always plenty to work on and maybe changing the bylaws, or the, your policies and structures is one of those things that you need to be working.
Bob Bickford: Yeah. And let me give you a couple of questions. Uh, I'll give our rep planers some questions to use in thinking about. Having demonstrated a willingness to work within the systems that exist in the, by use the bylaws that, are presently active in the church. Here's some ways to ask questions about them to lead towards changing them.
Right. Here's the first one is the decision making structure is this decision making, making structure, leading to the accomplishment of our mission, right? Here's the one that's related to that is this decision making structure hindering the accomplishment of our. And I've told the vacuum cleaner story, but basically we needed to buy a vacuum and we didn't have enough people.
So we had to wait an extra month to officially buy a vacuum at the replant. This was the, this was the early days Jim. I was a month in. Right. [00:02:00] And so we were able to say, you know what, the way we're making decisions here is not super effective. Right. And then here's the question that gets you working together with leaders who you've garnered their respect.
You ask them this, how might we more effectively make decisions on important matters? Is there, is there another way we can make decisions on important matters? What I've found is is that most often the people want to participate in decision making the big. The big decisions, but not every decision.
Now, some people are gonna listen to this and go, yeah, well, you don't know old bill who goes to my church now. I don't. I know, I do know old bill, right. and old bill does want to, he wants every, like every Inver, like he just does. Right. But ultimately. Most people are not like old bill and just want to gum up the, the works and stick sand in the gears.
Right. They, they just want to know the big decision. So we often talk in the replanting world about the big four. If you can get your church to agree in the future, having [00:03:00] demonstrated a willingness to work within the policies, the, the bylaws and the procedures that exist, if you can get them to agree to only voting on the big four, which would be this the call of the senior pastor, should there be a vacancy?
The annual budget, which also really represents the ministry plan for the. acquisition or disposition of property or debt, and then any enduring changes to the constitution of bylaws. If you can get everybody to only agree to vote on the big four, then what you can see is the committees and leadership teams and that decentralized leadership group that we were talking about last, you know, last couple episodes you empower them to do what you've.
Approved that they would do within the budget and also within the existing governing documents or the bylaws. And so then it streamlined your decision making and then you could go to monthly business meetings, or you could go to, quarterly business meetings.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah, there might even be an initial rejection of like, man, I don't even, I don't even, you know, what is Roberts rules of order? Why are we letting that guide us? We've got scripture. I would just say, man. [00:04:00] Times in the book of acts, especially where we see like acts chapter six when there is debate over, if people, if the widows are being fed, in a fair manner, I think even maybe a better example, acts chapter 15, called the Jerusalem council.
Where there's this theological debate over Gentiles. And what happens with Gentiles as far as how Jewish does a Gentile have to be, to be a follower of Jesus and, Paul, who is not ever short of his own opinion, Submits himself to a structure and a system. Right. And he goes back and there's this kind of council and there's, and that doesn't give us the details on how the meeting went and what a point of order would've looked like, in that.
But it does give us an example of their moments when conversations, decisions are so important. That we can't just go off our intuition or hallway conversations. I, I said [00:05:00] this in the episode we had with Craig Colbert, no meeting has ever made me more grateful for Roberts rules of order than the Southern Baptist convention.
there're just so many people in that room. If we did not have a clear structure, it would be chaos. and, I mean, it already could feel like chaos
sometimes. Even with the structure. but even in our, there are so many meetings. I, there are me several meetings I led as where you plant pastor that I now wish I would've paid more attention to a proper order of how to run a business meeting, just to make sure that people get a voice and that things are, are done well in a way that we make the right decisions together.
yeah, you've gotta know those and here here's the other thing I would a caveat I would give you understand. in America, the way that we work, your bylaws are legally binding.
And, man, you gotta be careful if you start operating outside of your bylaws, um, Man, you could get in some hot [00:06:00] water, like, and it can, it can turn ugly really bad.
and so even if you do it right according to the bylaws, you can get into some legal processes, but if you've done it according to the bylaws, then you're protected. and you get, you get to court and somebody decides they're gonna Sue you because of the way you did things and don't act like that doesn't happen.
It happens. then your bylaws are, if you just will operate by the bylaws, that that will protect you.
Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm , let's talk about informal permission. So informal permission. Here's a way to think about it. It's the leadership skill and insight, which recognizes the power of influencer and influencers. And knows that Ford progress is off that Ford progress often moves at the speed of relationships, right? So here's the deal.
Every church has influencers or gatekeepers, and they're the ones you can always identify them here. They're the ones that when a discussion in the church, body or team [00:07:00] or committee, when it turns to the point of decision or is considering. A step in a forward direction. That's different from preservation of the past.
Everybody waits till they speak, or everybody looks at them. You have just identified the person of influence. Now they may be in a position of influence, but oftentimes they're not right. They're just a person of influence. So now one thing to think about Jimbos they're, these folks are not necessarily problem people.
They are certainly process oriented folks. And oftentimes they're the ones who have potentially spoken up or participated or suggested the hard decisions. That have kept the church moving forward or alive or thriving. They're they're the folks who are, are trying to care for the organization in many, many ways.
Now there, these also sometimes can be a dysfunctional person who wants to keep the [00:08:00]church from moving forward. Right? So you have to discern, is this person part of the problem or are they part of the solution just in terms of they really care about the church and they want to help the church maintain, uh, its viability.
Mm.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. And so it's so important to distinguish that. And then, and then either way, approach it with discipleship. If they are a problem person of man, rather than just booting them or ignoring them, build trust within their relationship. Steven Covey wrote a book, called, the speed of trust. And he talks about how in organizations really, we can't, we cannot be.
And he is really addressing this kind of informal, permission piece in that book. And he talks about how in organizational leadership. We can only go as fast as people trust us. and, he says, there's a quote he says in there, I just found it. I love it. He says in a high trust relationship. So when, when we build high trust in those informal relationships, you [00:09:00] can say the wrong thing and people will still get what you were trying to mean.
in a low trust relationship, you can be very measured, even precise, and they'll still misinterpret you.
Bob Bickford: yeah.
JimBo Stewart: It's so true. and so this is, this is even where that platform and table stuff comes, right? Like you need to consistently be the same person in the platform as you are around the table. and you need to build trust as you pastor people, as you disciple people, as you shepherd people. And if you'll build trust, then when you inevitably misspeak and you.
You will misspeak. It will happen. They'll they'll go with you. They'll trust. You they'll know what you were meaning or they'll ask for clarification, but if you only do platform. If that's all you do is lead from the platform. Then you're not engendering trust amongst your people, just from the platform that requires table leadership.[00:10:00]
And, and if you don't build that trust, then man, and we've all seen it. It does not matter how clear you are. It will get misinterpreted. for sure, man, I got receipts. I could tell you stories
Bob Bickford: Absolutely. I've consulted that church, man.
JimBo Stewart: yeah.
Bob Bickford: been in there, right?
JimBo Stewart: Where you say it and you're so clear. I mean, you look back at what you said and you go, no, that I couldn't have said that any clearer, but they still are gonna misinterpret you.
And so just to tie this back in of how, why it's so important to build trust around tables.
Bob Bickford: Yeah, just look at your own marriage. There's probably happening. That's happened
before your own. Hey, let me give you three tips, to, building connections with informal permission people. Right. Here's the first one, spend time getting to know them on their turf. Right? Whatever their turf is, it's their house.
I had a, a, a guy that was the, the gatekeeper, the king of [00:11:00] informal permission, getting this guy named Claris. And, and I would just go spend time with him in his kitchen table and would talk through things with him and, and, really. Began to appreciate him, even though we were like just complete polar opposites.
Uh, but we developed a strong relationship. So get to know him, mother turf, whether that's kitchen table, the garden, the workplace coffee shop, wherever it is. Second dialogue about the church with him dialogue now, not monologue. Not cast vision, not just dialogue. Right. So dialogue is, Hey, what do you think about where the church is?
Or what are some of the things that are challenges that, that you have faced in the past with the church? And what are you thinking we're facing now? Like asking good questions, right? Getting that two way dialogue going. that's super important cuz every. Church that has a new pastor knows most likely that that new pastor has vision and strategy and wants to do some things, but they're not quite sure they trust him yet.
Right. So it's really important to go in and, and ask those questions and dialogue about him. [00:12:00]Then I would say this love them, man. Love him. They're there for you. Uh, they are, wanting to see the church often wanna see the church move forward. What they're not for is you just running loose and doing whatever the heck you want to do.
right. They're just not because they've spent time protecting the church, right. From possibly, you know, pastors who, for whatever reason, didn't have the best interest in mind and had an agenda in mind, or were unwilling to work with them and develop relationship. So they feel a sense of ownership and protection to, and, and in the right and in the rightest way that I, I could convey not, not in a.
Let's preserve it and not make any changes, but they just want the people in the church to, to be well cared for or loved and led well. And so therefore you doing that. So, man, love them. Get to know them. It'll start loving you and then you'll build a relationship with an informal permission giver. And I think it'll go well for you.
JimBo Stewart: Yeah. I mean, this all ties in so well to the conversations we've been having about platform and [00:13:00] table leadership. the, I would say the formal stuff is largely platform, right? The formal stuff is not entirely, in committee meetings and stuff like that is, is when it's still, it's kind of that from the platform type mentality and knowing that it's important to do that.
but even. Understanding that it's, it's really important to sit around the table and spend time getting to know people on their own turf, making it a dialogue and not a monologue, and listening to them. And here's what I'd say is when it comes to informal permission, let's make sure that we actually are listening.
To feedback, right? And that this is not just let me convince everyone of what I think needs to happen. but really do go with a loose grip and, and be open to people, improving the idea that you have, because they have a different perspective and insight than you do. And there's, there's a real value in not just getting [00:14:00] permission, but getting their perspective as.
Bob Bickford: That's great. I love it. Don't just get permission, get perspective. And then that will really help, you understand where they're coming from and I think it will make the church, and your, it will make your leadership stronger, but it has the potential to make the decisions that you make together in a.
In a position of unity, even more God honoring and more profitable for forward progress.
JimBo Stewart: Hey boot campers. We would love to hear back from you on your thoughts on this, which you've seen work and not work. Any feedback, questions, pushback that you've got. Cookie recipes, whatever you've got. we would also love to see you at the replant summit next month. Replant summit.com. You'll see the.
The schedule, the speakers, registration, registration will probably the time that this podcast goes, be closing soon. and so make sure to go ahead and register replant some of.com. It's gonna be a great time, Bob and I will both be there. We'd love to see you, and get to meet you in person. If we have not already.[00:15:00]
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They bootcamp boys are back talking about the importance of being a godly leader. You’ve probably heard the refrain-everything rises and falls on Leadership-we agree but it’s not always the kind of leadership one might think. We take time to talk about the characteristics of a godly leader which we believe are primary in helping […]
Well after going around the horn with some Football commentary the guys get down to talking about how to start and maintain strength as you lead and serve as a Replanter in a local church. Be encouraged, laugh a little and be equipped to make 2022 a great one. You can go back and listen […]
As 2021 comes to a close the guys get down to talking about developing a “Rule of Life” as they look to improve their personal lives spiritually, relationally, recreationally and professionally. As you are considering how the coming year will be different for you, we encourage you to grab a notebook or notepad and get […]
Well, Merry Christmas from the Boot Camp Boys! Cue this short, fun episode up on the way to grandma’s house, the Christmas Cantata or when you are in the basement hiding from the extended family! Some Highlights include: The “westward leading” Christmas Camel Kansas‘ runaway Camel Christmas is ruined! Win an echo dot from the […]
Well the boys open up with some fun Christmas banter and then get down to the serious business of talking about Time and Task Management. Wait….don’t bail out, stick with us and we’ll make it fun for you and, we’ll give you some helpful advice for getting your stuff together for the coming year. Some […]
JimBo and Bob take some time to answer a question submitted by Brad Whiteford on Facebook about how to balance family and ministry. Take a day off Attend family events Family comes first Date your wife Get up early or stay up late to make sure you are fully present when with family Figure out […]
The boys have been kicking it in the Big Easy for the past few days doing some training for Replant and eating their way through some fine NOLA cuisine. JimBo finally paid the bet debt by donning the Hog Hat. After the pleasantries they get down to discussing how shame plays a part in keeping […]
We’re celebrating our fourth Thanksgiving here at the bootcamp. Jimbo is staying local, baking bread, and celebrating with family. Bob is making his way, over the river and through the woods, to his Mom’s home in Arkansas. The guys spend some time sharing things they are thankful for and then Jimbo wraps up with a […]
After Bob called the Hogs, celebrating the Razorbacks victory, the boys got down to talking friendships among Pastors. Here’s the deal, Pastors often struggle with friendships-especially among themselves. Thanks to Dusty Marshall for the question for this EP. Here are some stats related to that topic from Pastors Wellness Resources: 70% of pastors do not […]
The Bootcamp boys are back! Jimbo is fired up for the “battle of the boot” game between LSU and Arkansas. The bet is on-will Jimbo wear the Hog Hat or will Bob wear the Pajama top? We’ll see. Today the guys answer a question from one of Listeners about how to manage boundaries and friendships […]
We’re back and wrapping up the Leadership Judo series, this time talking about the Synergist Leadership Style. This style is an important one and there are some unique dynamics in understanding, working with and accepting the contributions of a Synergist. Here are some of the key highlights Ask a Synergist to help you get people […]
This week the guys continue their series in Leadership Judo through the VOPS leadership styles by Les McKeown in his book The Synergist THE MIND OF A PROCESSOR (quotes are from ch. 4 of The Synergist) “Processors feel compelled to bring order to all they see. They’re easy to recognize not just in business, but […]
This week the boys have been traveling to and fro, encouraging Pastors and Associations on the road in TX, planning some great stuff in Bob’s home town of STL and sampling the local cuisine. But since you don’t tune in for food alone they get down to another EP on Leadership Judo, discussing the Operator […]
The Bootcamp Bros are back talking about Leadership Judo. What is leadership judo you ask? You can listen to last week’s podcast and get up to speed. Here’s a quick definition to get you ready for this episode. Leadership Judo: taking the energy of an opponent and directing it away from harm to a more […]
Grab your Judogi and join Jimbo and Bob in the dojo for some leadership lessons on this bootcamp as we talk about the concept of Leadership Judo. Leadership Judo: taking the energy of an opponent and directing it away from harm to a more productive place. VERBAL JUDO vs VERBAL KARATE (from Verbal Judo) “Karate […]
The “Bob” is back in town from his hiatus and joins Jimbo at the Bootcamp to discuss health. Grab an Iced tea or a water and sit right down for a bit more transparent discussion about health, diet, weight and why the boys are taking steps to trim down, shape up and how they are […]
With Bob still out recovering from COVID, the Bootcamp has a visiting professor for this episode. Professor Evan Skelton drops some wisdom on using discipleship groups for evangelism. JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp yet. Again, Bob Bickfordless. so last week we began a season of the podcast that has no […]
With Bob out recovering from COVID-19 JimBo invites Alan Stoddard to come on and answer a question from a listener, Josh Walley. Josh is the LifeGroup Hype Man at Journey Fellowship in Berman Georgia. He asked if the Bootcamp would explain more about sermon-based small groups. Alan Stoddard is the Co-author with Kenneth Priest of […]
JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the boot camp, South Carolina edition, getting a couple of knocked out while we’re here in the hotel. We’ll make sure that we post them all on the face box so Bob Bickford: that, so I would make one protein and then I correct it. So I […]
They guys took some time while they were in South Carolina to riff about planning and execution. Most pastors are good at coming up with big ideas – but many of them struggle with executing those plans. At times, the concepts of planning and execution can even feel too unspiritual. They guys discuss the importance […]
The Bootcamp Bros are back at it and this time they are musing about what they would go back and do differently in their first 100 days as Replanters. It’s not too late if you’re into your Replanting Journey, pray, develop a plan, recruit some leaders, pick a starting point, and go for it. Jimbo […]
Well, we made it to 100! Thanks for being part of the Bootcamp crew-we’re thankful for you spending time with us each week as we talk about Replanting and Revitalizing Churches. In this episode, Jimbo and Bob talk about what it means to have reached our one-hundredth episode and then take a look ahead at […]
We’re one EP away from #100! But, before then the guys take a TXT message from the Bootcamp Batphone and break it down. Here’s the question in summary: “What are the issues that keep churches from Revitalizing?” Most often churches refuse to face their true condition (denial) They ignore reality or explain it away They […]
In this episode, the guys discuss the latest news in JAX and STL as well as the importance of good sermon prep. Don’t be legalistic about your style or process Start with God’s Word and let that inform the whole sermon Don’t try to be impressive Get feedback on your preaching – keep growing Listen […]
The Bootcamp boys are back talking about why it’s worth saving dying and declining churches across N. America and around the world. Often, we hear pushback on investing time, money and resources in Replanting dying churches. Here are some of the highlights: A dying church doesn’t bring glory to God-that’s why Replanting is important In […]
In today’s episode Bob and Jimbo take time to hear the real life story of a Pastor who left his church. Many Pastor’s we know have experienced and are experiencing challenges and difficulties and eventually arrive at the the decision that it is time to leave the church they serve. If you’re a Pastor in […]
Bob (Replant Guru) and JimBo (the Good Doctor) discuss how to deal with biting sheep and bickering wolves. Listen to them fully Repeat back to them what they said and ask if that is correct Go to the Bible Your perspective is your perspective God’s word is God’s word = get them to take their […]
The guys are back in action after celebrating the 4th of July! They talk about favorite fireworks, Bob nearly getting arrested and Jimbo’s near death experience with a church member who loved him some fireworks. In today’s episode the guys get down to offering some key cautions for Shepherding Pastors as they lead their congregation. […]
Welcome back to the Bootcamp! Bob is another year older and Jimbo confesses he feels old too, but hey let’s jump in and get started. Today the guys are talking leadership and vision today and outlay some cautions for Visionary Leaders. Have a question or comment? Drop us a comment, send an email or leave […]
The guys are back from the #SBC21 in Nashville. Aside from being a bit concerned about their “review” powers Jimbo confesses that all the Robert’s Rules of Order steps had him simultaneously confused and amazed so we reached out to, none other than the Baptist Bouncer himself, Craig Culbreth who served on the SBC Parliamentary […]
The guys are back talking about approaches to ministry in this (SBC week) edition of the bootcamp. In this episode they discuss how to find your “own” approach to ministry in your local context and warn against simply adopting a strategy that worked for someone else, somewhere else. Check it out and stay tuned for […]
On this episode the guys take a question from Replant Pastor, Christopher Lee regarding his work at Highland’s Community Church. Q: How does small church, who has been hurt by past Shepherds, move on into the next season? Ultimately, this is a question of trust. You have to build trust and then move forward-in that […]
The guys are back at it and joined by, double doctor Josh Dryer who is on hand to breakdown all the demographic info for the area around Bob’s church in STL. Listen to EP 86 Understanding and Utilizing Demographics to get the backstory. Follow the demographic report as Josh walks Bob through it and shares […]
Today on the Bootcamp the guys continue their musings on “consultation” by asking then answering is your church ready to receive a consultation? Bob tells a winding tale about a bear that was running lose in his neighborhood and then lands the plane. Here are the takeaways to determine if your church is ready for […]
Find out what special song Bob once sang on Father’s day Should your church get a consultant? Short answer, yes. It is wise to receive counsel Longer answer – only if it is the right kind of consultant What type of consultant should your church seek out? One with experience in failure and success One […]
What a great episode we have in store for you today; Double Doctor and Pastor of Fifth Street Baptist Church in Key West, Josh Dryer, stopped by the bootcamp to talk about the value of demographic reports for your replant. Listen all the way through and then sign up for your FREE, yes FREE customized […]
Nathan Drake, from Reawaken Hymns, joined the guys at the Bootcamp to talk about multigenerational worship in replants. “The style of music isn’t the actual problem. The problem is that the style of music matters. That is the problem. It is a heart issue.” Check out Nathan’s resources at https://www.reawakenhymns.com You can find Nathan’s youtube […]
The guys wrap up this series on overcoming resistance to change in a local church. This episode the guys focus on leadership. By way of reminder, here is the change equation; Holy Discontent + Vision + First Steps + Leadership > Resistance to Change Leadership: a called, qualified and committed leader who navigates dangers, threats, challenges to the accomplishment of […]
One more great installment on the Change Equation for building congregational momentum. In this episode Bob and Jimbo discuss how practical first steps are a vital part in moving the congregation forward. They discuss developing easy wins and how to build sequential momentum. Holy Discontent + Vision + First Steps + Leadership > Resistance to Change FIRST […]
The boys are back at it talking the change equation to overcome resistance to congregational change and how vision plays an important part in getting things moving. Holy Discontent + Vision + First Steps + Leadership > Resistance to Change Vision = a clear and compelling God given picture of the unique call placed upon a […]
JimBo and Bob discuss the importance of holy discontentment in overcoming resistance to change. Holy Discontent + Vision + First Steps + Leadership > Resistance to Change Holy Discontent – The unquenchable Spirit-Initiated conviction that things are not as they should be–and that must change. Get the website help you need, connect with our […]
The guys picked up where they left off discussing the Netflixification of the Church and how the on demand nature of streaming has impacted the way people are engaging with the Church. Streaming Church Content due to convenience – probably not a good motive Streaming due to life circumstances and need – a periodic necessity […]
Jimbo does a solid favor for Bob and Kyle of the Replant team and then they guys get down to the serious business reflecting on trends in the church with our good friend, Keelan Cook, from the Union Baptist Association. Church gatherings have fundamentally changed through the use of media (online, drive-in, Facebook, Youtube etc.) […]
Bob and JimBo have a great time with special guest, Brian Croft, discussing his ministry transition and his new book. https://www.10ofthose.com/us/products/9089/practically-trained-pastors 00:00:00] JimBo Stewart: All right. So before we get started, we we’ve kind of gotten in the habit of talking about Bob’s Yelp reviews. And, the one story I have to share is I […]
The boys are back picking up where they left off-talking transitions in ministry, specifically how Jimbo became a “denominational guy” and why. Check it out as we discuss the importance of learning, serving and letting God lead you on a journey in ministry. How did you begin the path to becoming a denominational man? There […]
In this episode Jimbo talks about his transition away from his role as a full time Pastor to full work with the Replant team of the North American Mission Board. As they unpack Jimbo’s story listen in on some of the key insights as you might consider a transition yourself. Evaluate your call on a […]
This week the guys welcome to the bootcamp a long time Replanting friend, Pastor Mark Hallock, of the Calvary family of Churches in Denver Colorado. The guys spend time talking about how to be encouraged as a Pastor during this difficult season we find ourselves in. Key takeaways: Every person needs more encouragement than they […]
The guys are wrapping up their discussion on the Six Irreducible Minimums for 2021 and offer some insights on the frigid cold weather, valentines dining with your spouse, year-round-shorts guy, and Jimbo helps clear up Bob’s misunderstanding of “King Cakes” and then they get down to talking about why we need to depend upon the […]
Don’t let 2021 overwhelm you, stay with the basics, the irreducible minimums of ministry and take joy in leading your congregation and loving your people. The guys are back at it, discussing how you can excel at Engaging the Community. (also Jimbo shares a pretty incredible story right up front) Personal To engage the community […]
We’re back! Discussing the irreducible minimums of ministry that we can focus on as we shepherd and lead the church during this season. Our topic today-making disciples. We have been using the PITO Air Force Leadership model as a framework. Jump in and give it a listen. Have questions, feedback? We would love to hear […]
Bob gets honest about his disdain for Tom Brady, Jimbo has a Chiefs fan in the house and we get down to discussing why equipping your people for ministry is not only a central part of your calling but a joy. Check out the highlights below and consult the show notes for details. The PITO […]
In this episode Bob details his Popeye’s Chicken Sandwich experience and Jimbo and his kids went to Wendy’s to throw down on their claim that they’ve ended the Chicken Sandwich wars. Then the boys get around to addressing the six irreducible minimums once again, this time they discuss what it means to Preach the Word […]
Bob and Jimbo spend time breaking down one of the 6 Irreducible minimums, Pursuing the Kingdom of God via the PITO Leadership model from the Officer Development School of the US Air Force. Yeah, we know it sounds kinda well…..just give it a listen, we promise you’ll laugh and be informed. Personally: spiritual practices that […]
Happy New Year from the boot camp boys! We hope it’s off to a great start for you and your church. In today’s episode Wesley Lewis, owner and creative director of OneEighty.digital (our exclusive, illustrious and awesome podcast sponsor) stops by to explain how COVID19 has changed the internet. And….you’ll also learn a couple things […]
In this episode the guys talk about closing out the year and opening up 2021 with some intentionality and turn to considering what the irreducible minimums would be for leading the church in 2021. Don’t forget to drop us a line with your question or sign up for the next Replant Bootcamp black ops hat […]
In this Christmas edition of the Bootcamp the boys answer the age old question of Die Hard being Christmas movie or not, then they get down to serious business of considering the implications of Jesus being born into the world. Merry Christmas to you from the Boot Camp boys! Don’t forget to enter to win […]
In this episode the guys make the definitive call, Mississippi has the best Buffets. Jimbo talks a musical he was in that played in Kenya and then they get around to talking about the difficulty we have waiting. Laugh, be encouraged and take heart all of you who are waiting on the Lord. Key […]
Don’t let COVID crash your Christmas plans! Today the guys break down some ways they are considering busting through the COVID19 Blues and making the best of what can be done for outreach at Christmas time. Check this one out for some hope, help and encouragement and of course a few laughs! How can you […]
The boys catch up from their Thanksgiving break, Jimbo details another “Florida Man” incident and then they get down to talking about the Six Levels of Initiative and why they matter to your leadership in your Replant. The Replant Bootcamp ball hat giveaway is on! We draw for another hat this coming Monday. Enter the […]
It’s Thanksgiving week! We hope you have a great time as you gather with others this week. Jimbo and Bob talk about their plans and then get down to the business of reflecting on people they are thankful for who have been a part of their Replants. Stay tuned till the end for a moving […]
Thanksgiving is right around the corner and the guys talk about their favorite “dish” but then get down to business and talk about how to plan during a pandemic. Check it out and, don’t forget to enter the Replant Bootcamp Ball Cap giveaway. Some things to consider as you think about planning: What type of […]
Thanksgiving is right around the corner and the guys talk about their favorite “dish” but then get down to business and talk about how to plan during a pandemic. Check it out and, don’t forget to enter the Replant Bootcamp Ball Cap giveaway. Some things to consider as you think about planning: What type of […]
The boys are back (in their domiciles) and serving up another episode to you about implementing change in your Replant/Revitalization. Congrats to Bootcamp Listener, Gary Hinkle-the winner of a new “black ops” Replant Bootcamp cap! Get your very own Replant Bootcamp hat-the contest continues! What to keep in mind as you are leading change Operate […]
The boys are back (in their domiciles) and serving up another episode to you about implementing change in your Replant/Revitalization. Congrats to Bootcamp Listener, Gary Hinkle-the winner of a new “black ops” Replant Bootcamp cap! Get your very own Replant Bootcamp hat-the contest continues! What to keep in mind as you are leading change Operate […]
Attention Bootcamp Listeners! Be sure to sign up for our Replant Bootcamp Ball Cap Giveaway! Last week at the Missouri Baptist Convention the guys caught up with their good friend and Replant Pastor, Evan Skelton. The topic: the weightiness of leadership. Pastors/Replanters are leading in very heavy times. (Politics, Covid19 etc.) Pastors are exhausted and […]
Attention Bootcamp Listeners! Be sure to sign up for our Replant Bootcamp Ball Cap Giveaway! Last week at the Missouri Baptist Convention the guys caught up with their good friend and Replant Pastor, Evan Skelton. The topic: the weightiness of leadership. Pastors/Replanters are leading in very heavy times. (Politics, Covid19 etc.) Pastors are exhausted and […]
Hold everything! Before you jump in, be sure to sign up for our Replant Bootcamp Ball Cap Giveaway! Well…after Bob accidentally deleted the audio they stuck with it and finally got the podcast recorded for a “Live Bootcamp” from the Missouri Baptist Annual Convention in St. Charles MO. Joining the guys on this episode is […]
Hold everything! Before you jump in, be sure to sign up for our Replant Bootcamp Ball Cap Giveaway! Well…after Bob accidentally deleted the audio they stuck with it and finally got the podcast recorded for a “Live Bootcamp” from the Missouri Baptist Annual Convention in St. Charles MO. Joining the guys on this episode is […]
In this episode the boys talk about the importance of celebrating wins along the way in Replanting. Why is this necessary? Because the work of Replanting is hard and difficult. Here are some of the highlights Celebrate small steps and wins Find something to celebrate each weekend Be sure to celebrate missional activity-even if it […]
In this episode the boys talk about the importance of celebrating wins along the way in Replanting. Why is this necessary? Because the work of Replanting is hard and difficult. Here are some of the highlights Celebrate small steps and wins Find something to celebrate each weekend Be sure to celebrate missional activity-even if it […]
2020 keeps on 2020ing – Arkansas winning football games, emus running wild in Jacksonville. The guys discuss these things and more. This is the 4th episode in a series on change leadership: Revitalization 2 step – Prayer and Urgency Building a Change Leadership Team Creating and Communicating a Clear Vision At this point in the […]
2020 keeps on 2020ing – Arkansas winning football games, emus running wild in Jacksonville. The guys discuss these things and more. This is the 4th episode in a series on change leadership: Revitalization 2 step – Prayer and Urgency Building a Change Leadership Team Creating and Communicating a Clear Vision At this point in the […]
After some small talk about the correct pronunciation of States, the guys talk about the importance of vision in replanting. Vision is a key ingredient for the work of a Pastor and Replanter. By way of reminder here are the initial steps of leading a change process Stop and Pray Define and Confront Reality Build […]
After some small talk about the correct pronunciation of States, the guys talk about the importance of vision in replanting. Vision is a key ingredient for the work of a Pastor and Replanter. By way of reminder here are the initial steps of leading a change process Stop and Pray Define and Confront Reality Build […]
In this episode the guys pick up where they left off last time-talking change leadership. To lead change in a Replant or Revitalization you are going to need help-how do you build a team to lead change? The guys break it down. In examining your church you need to diagnose if you have a leadership […]
In this episode the guys pick up where they left off last time-talking change leadership. To lead change in a Replant or Revitalization you are going to need help-how do you build a team to lead change? The guys break it down. In examining your church you need to diagnose if you have a leadership […]
This week the guys celebrate the arrival of Fall, Bob celebrates that his beloved and dismal Razorbacks are sitting atop the SEC leader board (having played no games.) Jimbo tells about his very eventful “view of a call” Sunday and the barf-O-rama that preceded it on Saturday night. Along the way they talk about leadership, […]
This week the guys celebrate the arrival of Fall, Bob celebrates that his beloved and dismal Razorbacks are sitting atop the SEC leader board (having played no games.) Jimbo tells about his very eventful “view of a call” Sunday and the barf-O-rama that preceded it on Saturday night. Along the way they talk about leadership, […]
The Birthday Episode is here! 52 Episodes under the belt! Jimbo and Bob are still friends and we still have a few listeners. This episode has us celebrating some of the highlights of the past year. One of Bob’s favorite episodes was EP3# How Not to Lead Facility Changes take a listen to how Jimbo […]
The Birthday Episode is here! 52 Episodes under the belt! Jimbo and Bob are still friends and we still have a few listeners. This episode has us celebrating some of the highlights of the past year. One of Bob’s favorite episodes was EP3# How Not to Lead Facility Changes take a listen to how Jimbo […]
The Conflict Episode: we’re joined by Tony Merida who stopped by the ‘Ole Bootcamp’ to break down some important concepts from his most helpful book: Christ Centered Conflict Resolution Here are some of the quick insights: Conflict comes from our desires (see James 4:1) Understanding the conflict through the lens of the “Grand Narrative” […]
The Conflict Episode: we’re joined by Tony Merida who stopped by the ‘Ole Bootcamp’ to break down some important concepts from his most helpful book: Christ Centered Conflict Resolution Here are some of the quick insights: Conflict comes from our desires (see James 4:1) Understanding the conflict through the lens of the “Grand Narrative” […]
50 Episodes!! Thanks for being part of our listening family!! In this episode the guys talk about becoming lifelong learners, not being defined by your mistakes and how to grow in your leadership in light of the fact that you are not perfect. Quick Takeaways Mistakes are part of ministry-don’t excuse them, be defeated by […]
50 Episodes!! Thanks for being part of our listening family!! In this episode the guys talk about becoming lifelong learners, not being defined by your mistakes and how to grow in your leadership in light of the fact that you are not perfect. Quick Takeaways Mistakes are part of ministry-don’t excuse them, be defeated by […]
JimBo and Bob Bickford got a chance to hang out in person with Bob Bumgarner at the 2020 NAMB Replant Summit. Bob Bumgarner shares about Situational Leadership (Ken Blanchard)
JimBo and Bob Bickford got a chance to hang out in person with Bob Bumgarner at the 2020 NAMB Replant Summit. Bob Bumgarner shares about Situational Leadership (Ken Blanchard)
This week the guys offer some insights on how you might actually find a church to Replant. In addition to finding out that Bob bailed on being a High School Teacher and JimBo a Professor you’ll gain some key insights into the practical steps you can take in finding a church to Replant. The Blog […]
This week the guys offer some insights on how you might actually find a church to Replant. In addition to finding out that Bob bailed on being a High School Teacher and JimBo a Professor you’ll gain some key insights into the practical steps you can take in finding a church to Replant. The Blog […]
The guys fielded a question from Johnny Upchurch on Partnership-Thanks Johnny for being a bootcamp listener and for giving us a great question for the podcast. Q: How do I go about cultivating and growing partnerships with other Replanters and other churches? Here are some of the quick bullet points from the guys as they […]
The guys fielded a question from Johnny Upchurch on Partnership-Thanks Johnny for being a bootcamp listener and for giving us a great question for the podcast. Q: How do I go about cultivating and growing partnerships with other Replanters and other churches? Here are some of the quick bullet points from the guys as they […]
Take the survey here – https://s.surveyanyplace.com/replanter What to do once you have taken the survey SCORES Look at your scores. Do you think they are accurate? Did anything surprise you? SELF-REFLECTION Work through the reflection questions SIT WITH A COACH Find a good ministry mentor or coach and work through the reflection questions SELECTED STUDY […]
Take the survey here – https://s.surveyanyplace.com/replanter What to do once you have taken the survey SCORES Look at your scores. Do you think they are accurate? Did anything surprise you? SELF-REFLECTION Work through the reflection questions SIT WITH A COACH Find a good ministry mentor or coach and work through the reflection questions SELECTED STUDY […]
Today Jimbo and Bob talk about the habits of effective Replanters-these are essential characteristics that are critical to effectively replanting a local church. Affinity for Multi-Generational Ministry: A Replant pastor with an Affinity for Multi-Generational Ministry is able to connect easily with both the young and old in his congregation so each group knows […]
Today Jimbo and Bob talk about the habits of effective Replanters-these are essential characteristics that are critical to effectively replanting a local church. Affinity for Multi-Generational Ministry: A Replant pastor with an Affinity for Multi-Generational Ministry is able to connect easily with both the young and old in his congregation so each group knows […]
It’s hot in Florida and Missouri, Jimbo is another year older and we’re continuing the discussion related to the 13 Characteristics of a Replanter. Grab a glass of sweet tea or lemonade and join us as we look at the “Hands” Quadrant and discuss: Pastoral Grit, Resourceful Generalist and Initiative. Pastoral Grit: Pastoral Grit […]
It’s hot in Florida and Missouri, Jimbo is another year older and we’re continuing the discussion related to the 13 Characteristics of a Replanter. Grab a glass of sweet tea or lemonade and join us as we look at the “Hands” Quadrant and discuss: Pastoral Grit, Resourceful Generalist and Initiative. Pastoral Grit: Pastoral Grit […]
Jimbo is back from vacay and the guys break down the characteristics of a Replanter under the category of heart of a Replanter. Stay tuned all the way through from some helpful nuggets and book recommendations by the guys at the end of the podcast. Gospel Orientation refers to aligning the culture and practice of […]
Jimbo is back from vacay and the guys break down the characteristics of a Replanter under the category of heart of a Replanter. Stay tuned all the way through from some helpful nuggets and book recommendations by the guys at the end of the podcast. Gospel Orientation refers to aligning the culture and practice of […]
The guys are back talking about the characteristics present in Replanters. Listen as they break down stories of the bacon-y greatness of Shoney’s Breakfast Buffet, and the important characteristics of Replanters. Visionary Shepherd: “A Visionary Shepherd has the ability to sense and see God’s next steps for a congregation and the capacity to lead […]
The guys are back talking about the characteristics present in Replanters. Listen as they break down stories of the bacon-y greatness of Shoney’s Breakfast Buffet, and the important characteristics of Replanters. Visionary Shepherd: “A Visionary Shepherd has the ability to sense and see God’s next steps for a congregation and the capacity to lead […]
This episode has the guys answering a question from Pastor Gary: Our church (7 to 11 members) has decided to stop meeting publicly and wants to regroup in my home-they are also considering a name change and a move closer to town-what advice or wisdom can you offer? Listen in as the guys have an […]
This episode has the guys answering a question from Pastor Gary: Our church (7 to 11 members) has decided to stop meeting publicly and wants to regroup in my home-they are also considering a name change and a move closer to town-what advice or wisdom can you offer? Listen in as the guys have an […]
The guys continue their discussion on the 13 characteristics found in Replanters and offer a grid for better understanding each of them in categories we can wrap our minds around. First, we must understand that we begin with the biblical qualifications for Pastors/Elder, these are the foundation and cannot be overlooked. Jimbo mentioned […]
The guys continue their discussion on the 13 characteristics found in Replanters and offer a grid for better understanding each of them in categories we can wrap our minds around. First, we must understand that we begin with the biblical qualifications for Pastors/Elder, these are the foundation and cannot be overlooked. Jimbo mentioned […]
The guys began the conversation on the 13 Characteristics of a Replanter/Revitalizer by unpacking Self-Awareness. In future episodes they will walk through the rest of the characteristics. Of all the characteristics, Self-Awareness is foundational to pastoring whether you are a Replanter or Revitalizer. Crisis provides a great opportunity to develop self-awareness. He […]
The guys began the conversation on the 13 Characteristics of a Replanter/Revitalizer by unpacking Self-Awareness. In future episodes they will walk through the rest of the characteristics. Of all the characteristics, Self-Awareness is foundational to pastoring whether you are a Replanter or Revitalizer. Crisis provides a great opportunity to develop self-awareness. He […]
Last week the guys talked with Dr. James Hawkins about how to lead during times of racial tension. As Replanters/Pastors understanding the perspective of our African American congregants, community members and friends is imperative. Q: As a white pastor with a predominately white congregation how do we lead well in this time of racial tension? […]
Last week the guys talked with Dr. James Hawkins about how to lead during times of racial tension. As Replanters/Pastors understanding the perspective of our African American congregants, community members and friends is imperative. Q: As a white pastor with a predominately white congregation how do we lead well in this time of racial tension? […]
Episode #37 PURSUING EMOTIONAL HEALTH DURING CRISIS WITH DR. JAMES HAWKINS Dr. James Hawkins talked to the guys about how to stay emotionally healthy as a leader during a time of crisis. Q: Is it okay for us to feel emotionally off right now as leaders? A: Absolutely, 100%. God has wired us to […]
Episode #37 PURSUING EMOTIONAL HEALTH DURING CRISIS WITH DR. JAMES HAWKINS Dr. James Hawkins talked to the guys about how to stay emotionally healthy as a leader during a time of crisis. Q: Is it okay for us to feel emotionally off right now as leaders? A: Absolutely, 100%. God has wired us to […]
The guys take some time to talk about the difficult decisions we are facing as Replanters/Pastors in reopening the church. If you’re weighing all the options, if you are frustrated and concerned, the guys will give you some encouragement. Are you a Pastor struggling with the many competing voices regarding how you should lead and […]
The guys take some time to talk about the difficult decisions we are facing as Replanters/Pastors in reopening the church. If you’re weighing all the options, if you are frustrated and concerned, the guys will give you some encouragement. Are you a Pastor struggling with the many competing voices regarding how you should lead and […]
The present pandemic has changed the rules of engagement for everyone – especially the church and outreach. The guys break down some of their thoughts on outreach in the time of Covid 19. Q: What does outreach look like in the time of social distancing? We have to acknowledge that there are new rules of […]
The present pandemic has changed the rules of engagement for everyone – especially the church and outreach. The guys break down some of their thoughts on outreach in the time of Covid 19. Q: What does outreach look like in the time of social distancing? We have to acknowledge that there are new rules of […]
Bob and JimBo discuss the serious topic of losing another Pastor to an untimely death. Our hope is that you would be encouraged as we discuss some of the challenges we face as Pastors and if you need help and assistance you would reach out and find the help and hope you need. Challenges […]
Bob and JimBo discuss the serious topic of losing another Pastor to an untimely death. Our hope is that you would be encouraged as we discuss some of the challenges we face as Pastors and if you need help and assistance you would reach out and find the help and hope you need. Challenges […]
The guys welcome Dr. Joe McKeever to the bootcamp. Joe shares some great wisdom from his years of experience as a Pastor and as a Director of Missions in New Orleans. Q: What is it like to lead in the aftermath of a crisis? J: Crises never announce themselves, you have to be prepared ahead […]
The guys welcome Dr. Joe McKeever to the bootcamp. Joe shares some great wisdom from his years of experience as a Pastor and as a Director of Missions in New Orleans. Q: What is it like to lead in the aftermath of a crisis? J: Crises never announce themselves, you have to be prepared ahead […]
EP 32 – Coping with the Covid19 Crazies We Feel As Pastors Are you beaten down by the pervasiveness of the Covid19 pandemic? The boys talk about what they are finding encouraging, challenging and how they are personally navigating this unique season in ministry. Bob has been encouraged by the activation of the body for […]
EP 32 – Coping with the Covid19 Crazies We Feel As Pastors Are you beaten down by the pervasiveness of the Covid19 pandemic? The boys talk about what they are finding encouraging, challenging and how they are personally navigating this unique season in ministry. Bob has been encouraged by the activation of the body for […]
ENGLISH – Today we have Pastor Jaime Lopez from Bell Shoals Iglesia Bautista in Florida, and Pastor David Quiroa de Valley Baptist Español in California. Today we are talking about ways to reach our church through social media, email and phone calls. We will talk about some cost-effective ways to record your sermon. The reasons […]
ENGLISH – Today we have Pastor Jaime Lopez from Bell Shoals Iglesia Bautista in Florida, and Pastor David Quiroa de Valley Baptist Español in California. Today we are talking about ways to reach our church through social media, email and phone calls. We will talk about some cost-effective ways to record your sermon. The reasons […]
Josh Ellis and Keelan Cook from the Union Baptist Association stopped by The Bootcamp to visit with Bob and Jimbo about considerations in re-opening and leading the church after the Covid19 quarantine ends. Pastors are all over the board in terms of their plans for resuming church gatherings. Pastors are asking: “What steps should […]
Josh Ellis and Keelan Cook from the Union Baptist Association stopped by The Bootcamp to visit with Bob and Jimbo about considerations in re-opening and leading the church after the Covid19 quarantine ends. Pastors are all over the board in terms of their plans for resuming church gatherings. Pastors are asking: “What steps should […]
After this episode was recorded Chattanooga TN, along with many other cities in the southeast were impacted by severe weather and tornados. Pray for the people impacted and the Church as they seek to minister grace and practical help Micah is the pastor of Brainerd Baptist Church part of the .EST podcast and the co-Author […]
After this episode was recorded Chattanooga TN, along with many other cities in the southeast were impacted by severe weather and tornados. Pray for the people impacted and the Church as they seek to minister grace and practical help Micah is the pastor of Brainerd Baptist Church part of the .EST podcast and the co-Author […]
Matt Stephens, Pastor The Fort Church in Columbus Georgia. Matt stopped by the bootcamp and shared his replant story with Bob and JimBo on this, another Quarantine edition of The Replant Bootcamp. When Matt became the Pastor the church had already been involved in Replanting for some time. When another church approached them about taking […]
Matt Stephens, Pastor The Fort Church in Columbus Georgia. Matt stopped by the bootcamp and shared his replant story with Bob and JimBo on this, another Quarantine edition of The Replant Bootcamp. When Matt became the Pastor the church had already been involved in Replanting for some time. When another church approached them about taking […]
Leader, author and business expert Les McKeown stopped by the bootcamp to share his insights regarding life cycles of organizations and churches. The guys talked to Les about we need to know as we navigate the new realities of doing and being the church during Covid19. Consult the overview and glossary of terms as […]
Leader, author and business expert Les McKeown stopped by the bootcamp to share his insights regarding life cycles of organizations and churches. The guys talked to Les about we need to know as we navigate the new realities of doing and being the church during Covid19. Consult the overview and glossary of terms as […]
Joining the guys on the bootcamp today is Mike Rubino, Pastor at Cornerstone in Port Jefferson, New York. (On Long Island) Mike is an accidental Replanter-he was serving at a declining church as an Associate Pastor when God called him to become a Replanter at that same church. This episode contains some pithy, tweet-able gold […]
Joining the guys on the bootcamp today is Mike Rubino, Pastor at Cornerstone in Port Jefferson, New York. (On Long Island) Mike is an accidental Replanter-he was serving at a declining church as an Associate Pastor when God called him to become a Replanter at that same church. This episode contains some pithy, tweet-able gold […]
Joining the guys on the bootcamp is Min Lee, Replant Pastor of LA City Baptist Church Min is a Korean-American Pastor, replanting a predominately Hispanic Church in Boyle Heights. He learned about the church from his Director of Missions // Associational Missional Strategist who asked him to join him in visiting the church. On his […]
Joining the guys on the bootcamp is Min Lee, Replant Pastor of LA City Baptist Church Min is a Korean-American Pastor, replanting a predominately Hispanic Church in Boyle Heights. He learned about the church from his Director of Missions // Associational Missional Strategist who asked him to join him in visiting the church. On his […]
Joining us today on the Bootcamp are some boots on the ground Replanters who share with us how they are thinking and making decisions in the time of the Coronavirus Pandemic. Chris Snider – Catonsville Baptist, Catonsville MD Evan Skelton – Bayless Baptist Church, St. Louis MO Stuart Dace – Exchange Church, Arnold MO Bob […]
Joining us today on the Bootcamp are some boots on the ground Replanters who share with us how they are thinking and making decisions in the time of the Coronavirus Pandemic. Chris Snider – Catonsville Baptist, Catonsville MD Evan Skelton – Bayless Baptist Church, St. Louis MO Stuart Dace – Exchange Church, Arnold MO Bob […]
Pilot Mountain Associational Missional Strategist Walker Armstrong stopped by the bootcamp when we were in ATL for the Replant Practitioner Lab. Here are some of the highlights. There are a lot of characters in dying churches. Humor is a great way to not make a big deal about something — but also to address […]
Pilot Mountain Associational Missional Strategist Walker Armstrong stopped by the bootcamp when we were in ATL for the Replant Practitioner Lab. Here are some of the highlights. There are a lot of characters in dying churches. Humor is a great way to not make a big deal about something — but also to address […]
Show Note Early Wednesday morning East Nashville TN was it with a severe tornado. Many business and homes in the area were impacted, 24 lives were lost and the community is in great need. Jason’s church, Hope Church was undamaged yet just blocks from the church the damage was severe. Pray for Jason and his […]
Show Note Early Wednesday morning East Nashville TN was it with a severe tornado. Many business and homes in the area were impacted, 24 lives were lost and the community is in great need. Jason’s church, Hope Church was undamaged yet just blocks from the church the damage was severe. Pray for Jason and his […]
Keelan Cook, of the Union Baptist Association stopped by the bootcamp to give us some great insights on how to understand your church and its context. It is important for Replants and Revitalizations to know themselves and their communities-one of the reasons why they are in decline is that they no longer understand themselves and […]
Keelan Cook, of the Union Baptist Association stopped by the bootcamp to give us some great insights on how to understand your church and its context. It is important for Replants and Revitalizations to know themselves and their communities-one of the reasons why they are in decline is that they no longer understand themselves and […]
Joining the guys today is Cory Davis, Pastor in Eastview Baptist Church in Kilgore Texas. He is definitely a Resourceful Generalist-he drove up to a member’s home and jumped on their internet to take the call. Thanks for joining us Cory! Q: How do I lead our senior saints to engage our community missionally? Remember, […]
Joining the guys today is Cory Davis, Pastor in Eastview Baptist Church in Kilgore Texas. He is definitely a Resourceful Generalist-he drove up to a member’s home and jumped on their internet to take the call. Thanks for joining us Cory! Q: How do I lead our senior saints to engage our community missionally? Remember, […]
The guys are back with Replant Hacks vol. 2. Checkout some of these helpful tricks of the trade they’ve found useful as Replanters. Ring.com Video Doorbell: allows you to interact with someone who stopped by the church office. You can also delegate answering to others. Google Voice: allows you to forward calls, set up voice […]
The guys are back with Replant Hacks vol. 2. Checkout some of these helpful tricks of the trade they’ve found useful as Replanters. Ring.com Video Doorbell: allows you to interact with someone who stopped by the church office. You can also delegate answering to others. Google Voice: allows you to forward calls, set up voice […]
(JimBo) As a Campus of Hibernia Baptist Church at Hyde Park, we were going autonomous and needed to change our name. The process that was suggested to JimBo -Announce a name change (you have 6 weeks) -If you (JimBo) have an idea-share it with the church -Gather suggested names from the entire congregation -Hold a […]
(JimBo) As a Campus of Hibernia Baptist Church at Hyde Park, we were going autonomous and needed to change our name. The process that was suggested to JimBo -Announce a name change (you have 6 weeks) -If you (JimBo) have an idea-share it with the church -Gather suggested names from the entire congregation -Hold a […]
Bob and JimBo take some time to share their favorite Replant hacks. This wide ranging conversation had the boys riffing about practical stuff they have found helpful to them as Replanters. How do you handle pit stains? Thompson Tees Need some Graphic Design help: canva.com and Ignitermedia.com Great photos sources: Pexels and Unsplash Need […]
Bob and JimBo take some time to share their favorite Replant hacks. This wide ranging conversation had the boys riffing about practical stuff they have found helpful to them as Replanters. How do you handle pit stains? Thompson Tees Need some Graphic Design help: canva.com and Ignitermedia.com Great photos sources: Pexels and Unsplash Need […]
Joining the guys on this episode are Barb Bickford and Audrea Stewart, they share from their experience as spouses of Replanters. Is it harder for the Pastor’s wife than anyone else? -Yes, a lot of times it is. When people attack or criticize your husband (the pastor) you feel the need to defend. -You often […]
Joining the guys on this episode are Barb Bickford and Audrea Stewart, they share from their experience as spouses of Replanters. Is it harder for the Pastor’s wife than anyone else? -Yes, a lot of times it is. When people attack or criticize your husband (the pastor) you feel the need to defend. -You often […]
It was great to have Wesley Lewis from our podcast sponsor Oneeightydigital.com talk all things Website, social media and all relevant topics. It’s a good probability that one of the first things needing to be changed is the website of a Church needing Replanting. The Website is the “front door” of your church. Things […]
It was great to have Wesley Lewis from our podcast sponsor Oneeightydigital.com talk all things Website, social media and all relevant topics. It’s a good probability that one of the first things needing to be changed is the website of a Church needing Replanting. The Website is the “front door” of your church. Things […]
When NBA, NFL teams, and other major sports franchises want to rebrand they call Rodney Richardson at Rare Design. Rare Design also helps a lot of churches and Rodney is a lay elder at The Church at 4 Points. Rare Design and 4 Points help support and manage Ddembe Ministries in Uganda. Rodney has served […]
When NBA, NFL teams, and other major sports franchises want to rebrand they call Rodney Richardson at Rare Design. Rare Design also helps a lot of churches and Rodney is a lay elder at The Church at 4 Points. Rare Design and 4 Points help support and manage Ddembe Ministries in Uganda. Rodney has served […]
Mark Clifton, Sr. Director of Replant of the North American Mission Board, stopped by the bootcamp and dropped some great knowledge and advice about how to deal with discouragement and depression as a Replanter. How can a Replanter stay encouraged and healthy? Unfortunately many don’t. Pastors operate wounded and then wound others-spending $20 on a […]
Mark Clifton, Sr. Director of Replant of the North American Mission Board, stopped by the bootcamp and dropped some great knowledge and advice about how to deal with discouragement and depression as a Replanter. How can a Replanter stay encouraged and healthy? Unfortunately many don’t. Pastors operate wounded and then wound others-spending $20 on a […]
Pastor Kyle Bueermann, First Baptist Church Alamogordo NM Background: Kyle was called to Replant/Revitalize a church with 60 people that was in 900K in debt. Q: How do you deal with debt in a Replant? Be certain of your call: the call to Replant a church is a necessity-especially when that church is in a […]
Pastor Kyle Bueermann, First Baptist Church Alamogordo NM Background: Kyle was called to Replant/Revitalize a church with 60 people that was in 900K in debt. Q: How do you deal with debt in a Replant? Be certain of your call: the call to Replant a church is a necessity-especially when that church is in a […]
Nathan Pittman, Pastor, Mountain Bible Church, Livingston MT Q: Is there a correct order regarding Elder or Deacons? Which should you have first in a Replant? “Delders” leaders in a local church who are actually Deacons but lead like Elders. (h/t Mike Hubbard, Pastor, Genesis Church) Baptist Faith and Message side by side comparison 1925, […]
Nathan Pittman, Pastor, Mountain Bible Church, Livingston MT Q: Is there a correct order regarding Elder or Deacons? Which should you have first in a Replant? “Delders” leaders in a local church who are actually Deacons but lead like Elders. (h/t Mike Hubbard, Pastor, Genesis Church) Baptist Faith and Message side by side comparison 1925, […]
Carey Long, Pastor, Northside Baptist Church, Slidell LA Q: What are some practical ways we can help change our church’s reputation/image in the community? This is a complicated and layered question. A bad reputation is not built, nor is it fixed overnight. Discover/Ask: what has our church done that has created a bad reputation in […]
Carey Long, Pastor, Northside Baptist Church, Slidell LA Q: What are some practical ways we can help change our church’s reputation/image in the community? This is a complicated and layered question. A bad reputation is not built, nor is it fixed overnight. Discover/Ask: what has our church done that has created a bad reputation in […]
Mark Hallock Lead Pastor, The Calvary Family of Churches, Englewood Baptist Church In Replanting you can be thankful that God has called you to the mission of seeing churches raised from the dead You have been called to preach the word You have been placed in a particular community that needs to hear the gospel […]
Mark Hallock Lead Pastor, The Calvary Family of Churches, Englewood Baptist Church In Replanting you can be thankful that God has called you to the mission of seeing churches raised from the dead You have been called to preach the word You have been placed in a particular community that needs to hear the gospel […]
Chip Luter Pastor, Idlewild @ The Springs Lessons Learned from my Father, Dr. Fred Luter As a Pastors’ kid, I was able to watch a pastor who was a great shepherd. When you meet a pastor whose staff knows more about the church than he does he is not a Pastor Shepherd. My father was […]
Chip Luter Pastor, Idlewild @ The Springs Lessons Learned from my Father, Dr. Fred Luter As a Pastors’ kid, I was able to watch a pastor who was a great shepherd. When you meet a pastor whose staff knows more about the church than he does he is not a Pastor Shepherd. My father was […]
This is the first episode of a 2-part ? BOOTS ON THE GROUND HIGHLIGHT ?about Dr. Fred Luter Jr. and his son Fred “Chip” Luter III. In part 1 we will hear from Dr. Fred about his replanting journey at Franklin Avenue Baptist Church in New Orleans and in part 2 we will hear from […]
This is the first episode of a 2-part ? BOOTS ON THE GROUND HIGHLIGHT ?about Dr. Fred Luter Jr. and his son Fred “Chip” Luter III. In part 1 we will hear from Dr. Fred about his replanting journey at Franklin Avenue Baptist Church in New Orleans and in part 2 we will hear from […]
Bob, JimBo and special guest Evan Skelton, discuss how to handle business meetings that go bad. “What do you do or how do you handle it when something blows up in a Family “business” meeting at church? When Conflict Breaks Out Realize it’s not the end of the world. Every relationship experiences conflict. Conflict is […]
Bob, JimBo and special guest Evan Skelton, discuss how to handle business meetings that go bad. “What do you do or how do you handle it when something blows up in a Family “business” meeting at church? When Conflict Breaks Out Realize it’s not the end of the world. Every relationship experiences conflict. Conflict is […]
In a Replant high capacity and qualified leaders are likely to be in short supply. Don’t let the urgent need for leaders be a primary driving process for your seeking to install Elders. Do not confuse excitement and enthusiasm as good indicators that you may have found the right person to engage as a leader. […]
In a Replant high capacity and qualified leaders are likely to be in short supply. Don’t let the urgent need for leaders be a primary driving process for your seeking to install Elders. Do not confuse excitement and enthusiasm as good indicators that you may have found the right person to engage as a leader. […]
The guys welcomed Replant Pastor Evan Skelton to the Bootcamp to talk about preparing for the call to Replant a local church, Replant Residencies and failed Youth Internships. Buckle up, grab a snack and settle in for this slightly longer (than usual) but super important episode. How do you prepare for the call of […]
The guys welcomed Replant Pastor Evan Skelton to the Bootcamp to talk about preparing for the call to Replant a local church, Replant Residencies and failed Youth Internships. Buckle up, grab a snack and settle in for this slightly longer (than usual) but super important episode. How do you prepare for the call of […]
It’s Pastor Appreciation month. In this episode Bob and JimBo breakdown what they, as Pastors, view as helpful and not helpful in making them feel appreciated. Q: How can lay persons in a Replant be an encouragement to a Pastor and his family? Not helpful or particularly encouraging to Pastors Sharing criticism right before the […]
It’s Pastor Appreciation month. In this episode Bob and JimBo breakdown what they, as Pastors, view as helpful and not helpful in making them feel appreciated. Q: How can lay persons in a Replant be an encouragement to a Pastor and his family? Not helpful or particularly encouraging to Pastors Sharing criticism right before the […]
If your documents are getting in the way of getting ministry done then it is time to consider doing something. It is more important to build a biblical culture in the church than to have good documents. Imagine if members of the church were walking and growing in Christ, this would be far more powerful than bylaws.
If your documents are getting in the way of getting ministry done then it is time to consider doing something. It is more important to build a biblical culture in the church than to have good documents. Imagine if members of the church were walking and growing in Christ, this would be far more powerful than bylaws.
Your calling is to be a pastor, not a property manager. Learn how to shepherd your people to the purpose that God has for this church.
Your calling is to be a pastor, not a property manager. Learn how to shepherd your people to the purpose that God has for this church.
In this episode Bob and JimBo are joined by BOOTS ON THE GROUND GUEST Jesse Peters from Ebenezer Baptist Church in Henderson, NC. Jesse is helping start a replanting residency at his church and wanted to know what advice we would have for replanting residents and rookies. Replanting is not easy work, but it also […]
In this episode Bob and JimBo are joined by BOOTS ON THE GROUND GUEST Jesse Peters from Ebenezer Baptist Church in Henderson, NC. Jesse is helping start a replanting residency at his church and wanted to know what advice we would have for replanting residents and rookies. Replanting is not easy work, but it also […]
Revitalization is not always a probable option for a dying church. It may be time to consider a replant. What is the difference?
Revitalization is not always a probable option for a dying church. It may be time to consider a replant. What is the difference?
In this introductory episode, Bob and JimBo introduce themselves and discuss what inspired them to start Replant Bootcamp, how they hope the podcast will be helpful, and who it will be helpful for.
In this introductory episode, Bob and JimBo introduce themselves and discuss what inspired them to start Replant Bootcamp, how they hope the podcast will be helpful, and who it will be helpful for.