Crossing Faiths: Recent Episodes
Matt Hawkins and John Pinna
Two friends, Matt Hawkins (a former policy director for the Southern Baptist Convention) and John Pinna (former Executive Director of American Islamic Congress) talk religion and politics. The podcast delivers weekly episodes featuring commentary on news, politics, multifaith experiences, and expert guests. The conversations build on a decade of their collaboration, advocating in Washington, D.C. for religious freedom domestically and around the globe. The two developed the podcast with a desire to share conversations that model friendship and collaboration despite deep differences in religion and background. Support our podcast via Patreon.
John interviews Tim Bupp, a pastor of two local Evangelical Lutheran congregations. Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths).
Matt chats a bit about his parents experience in Fort Myers, FL following Hurrican Ian. John talks about what life is like for religious minorities in Iran.
This week, John and Matt discuss a survey suggesting that a growing number of Evangelicals no longer strictly hold to basic Evangelical doctrines. This leads them to ask—what is an Evangelical anyway, and how is the definition of "Evangelical" being shifted by the growth of Christian Nationalism? Episode Highlights: 12:45 - Basic Evangelical belief problem 23:00 The growth of Christian Nationalism 26:30 Islamic isolation after September 11, 2001 29:00 Nationalism summarized by Matt 34:00 Christianity sans martyrs 45:00 The Evangelical Test 51:00 What do they believe? Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths).
Matt and John chat about the Queen's funeral, a quick Ukraine update, and the ramifications of a fading Christian America. mh
John tells of his experience in Austria handling the legendary Spear of Destiny and the conversation just unravels from there...
John and Matt discuss the post-Roe abortion vote in Kansas and its implications for the political climate. Also, what Islam smells like, and Naziing as a verb. Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths).
Matt catches up with John to discuss their experiences with the IRF (International Religious Freedom) summit. John joins on location from Vienna, Austria, where he is gathering intel on advanced stew and pastry technology. Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths).
John Pinna visited the International Religious Freedom summit in Washington DC, where he interviewed Greg Mitchell (https://www.themitchellfirm.com/about/founder/). Greg has been in national politics and government since 1991. In search of a higher purpose, Greg decided to focus on government reform and improving public policy, and in the late summer of 2003 founded The Mitchell Firm. The Mitchell Firm's goal is the ultimate in freedom and independence for every individual in every country. Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Special Guest: Greg Mitchell.
John Pinna visited the International Religious Freedom summit in Washington DC, where he interviewed Sam Brownback. Sam Brownback (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Brownback) is an American attorney, politician and diplomat who served as the United States Ambassador at Large for International Religious Freedom from 2018 to 2021. Brownback previously served as the Secretary of Agriculture of Kansas (1986–93), as the U.S. representative for Kansas's 2nd congressional district (1995–96), as a United States senator from Kansas (1996–2011) and the 46th governor of Kansas (2011–18). Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths).
John Pinna visited the 2022 International Religious Freedom summit in Washington DC, where he interviewed Miriam Wahba. Mariam is the Associate Director of Advocacy with the Philos Project (https://philosproject.org/). Mariam graduated from Fordham University with a BA in Middle East studies, Arabic, and Jewish studies. While she currently resides in NYC, Mariam was born in Menya, Egypt. Previously, she was the Policy Intern at In Defense of Christians, a Hertog Political Science Fellow, and a Tikvah Fund Journalism Fellow. Her interests include Middle East Foreign Policy, Religious Freedom and Plurality, and Israeli-Arab relations. Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Special Guest: Miriam Wahba.
In this short episode, John and Matt continue to discuss the war in Ukraine, with John's predictions about the tide turning in Russia's favor being affirmed by emerging media. This is followed by a wide-ranging culinary discussion, including the story of a deathbed recipe. Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths).
John offers his unique perspective on Russia's war with Ukraine—how it could have been avoided and what its probable outcomes are. Spoilers: The birth of Starfleet Command? Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths).
John and Matt discuss how abortion specifically, and other issues generally, shape the approach to inclusivism and the shaping of public policy in the Muslim and Christian worlds. Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths).
00:01:40 - Athena 00:05:00 - Abortion: Can men have an opinion? 00:12:40 - Faith-based regulation 00:18:00 - Theocracy 00:22:00 - Is the pro-life question uniquely religious? 00:31:00 - Questions that slogans don't answer 00:35:30 - What is the unborn? 00:41:00 - There are two victims 00:44:30 - The positions of the judges 00:50:30 - Will evangelicals ever stop feeling persecuted? 00:52:40 - The failure of Congress Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths).
Matt and John recap life drama from 2021 and swap Christmas traditions. Plus: Taking Halloween seriously. What states are actually in America? And a close call with the Prince of Wales. CHAPTERS: 00:00:00 Opening Chat 00:03:20 Matt's Year 00:13:00 John's Year 00:19:50 John's Christmas Traditions 00:25:00 On St. Nicholas 00:26:25 Matt's Christmas Traditions 00:28:50 Christmas Favorites 00:33:44 On Halloween 00:35:30 The Incarnation Problem 00:43:00 Come Visit America 00:47:50 The Prince of Wales Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths).
John and Matt discuss a supreme court case filed against the FBI by muslims who claim they were illegaly spied upon. Why is this still happening in 2021, and what are the implications for people of other faith traditions? CHAPTERS: 00:30:00 Opening Chat 00:08:06 FBI Surveillance of Muslims 00:13:42 The January 6th Connection 00:14:50 So-Called Security Experts 00:16:05 How a Dragnet Works 00:21:30 Implications for Christians 00:23:00 Multifaith, Interfaith, National Security and Doughnuts REFERENCES: 'Who Else Is Spying on Me?' Muslim Americans Bring the Fight Against Surveillance to the Supreme Court (https://time.com/6097712/muslim-american-surveillance-supreme-court-sept-11/) EXPANDING HUMAN RIGHTS AND CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES: SEE SOMETHING, SAY SOMETHING POLICY Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths).
John is joined by Sumbul Ali-Karamali, author of Demystifying Sharia: What It Is, How It Works, and Why It’s Not Taking Over Our Country. Together, they discuss Western ignorance of Islam, what the goals of Sharia really are, the truth about the role of violence in Islam, and Star Trek. CHAPTERS: 00:00:00 Opening 00:01:45 Introduction to Sambul 00:05:43 Are you a Trekkie? 00:06:40 Ignorance of Islam 00:09:05 The Faith of Abraham 00:11:15 Reading the Quran 00:13:58 Islam and the Use of Violence 00:19:12 What is Sharia? 00:25:38 The Goals of Sharia 00:26:50 Fatwa 00:29:52 Sharia and Law 00:34:35 The Taliban 00:40:24 Sharia Law in the USA? 00:45:57 Bad Actors 00:49:57 Two Muslims, Ten Opinions 00:55:55 ...But God Knows Best REFERENCES: Demystifying Sharia (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/618221/demystifying-shariah-by-sumbul-ali-karamali/) The Taliban Will Cut Off Hands of People Who Steal As Sharia Reinstated Across Afghanistan (https://www.newsweek.com/taliban-will-cut-off-hands-people-who-steal-1625835) What is Sharia? Islamic law shows Muslims how to live, and can be a force for progress as well as tool of fundamentalists (https://theconversation.com/what-is-sharia-islamic-law-shows-muslims-how-to-live-and-can-be-a-force-for-progress-as-well-as-tool-of-fundamentalists-155112) Is the Taliban Treatment of Women Really Inspired by Sharia? (https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/8/22/is-the-talibans-treatment-of-women-really-inspired-by-sharia) Special Guest: Sumbul Ali-Karamali.
John and Matt discuss: Is it actually possible to be both a Muslim and an atheist? Plus: Should Christians use religious exemptions to avoid the COVID vaccine? CHAPTERS: 00:00:18 Opening Chat 00:04:30 Atheism Article Intro 00:05:00 Atheism VS Agnosticism 00:07:00 An Atheist Muslim would be like a unicorn. 00:08:00 Exception: No God but God 00:09:30 Nihilism 00:10:30 Reza Aslan (Continued) 00:12:00 Ali A. Rizvi and a clarification of terms 00:14:00 The inverted perspective of doomsday cults 00:16:00 Mu'tazila 00:20:00 Hitchins and the bias toward Western religions 00:22:00 Non-practicing Muslims 00:25:30 Atheist Muslims: Conclusions 00:30:00 Religious exemptions for COVID-19 vaccines 00:35:00 Fauci and the Muslim Perspective 00:39:00 COVID and Doughnuts REFERENCES: Atheism Among Muslims is Spreading Like Wildfire (https://nationalinterest.org/feature/atheism-among-muslims-%E2%80%9Cspreading-wildfire%E2%80%9D-193924) No God But God by Reza Aslan (https://www.amazon.com/No-god-but-God-Evolution/dp/1400062136) Mu'tazila (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%CA%BFtazila) The Atheist Muslim by Ali Rizvi (https://www.amazon.com/Atheist-Muslim-Journey-Religion-Reason/dp/1250094445/) Religious Exemptions Threaten to Undermine US COVID Vaccine Mandates (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/oct/19/religious-exemptions-us-covid-vaccine-mandates-california)
Matt and John dive into controversy discussing religious exemptions from vaccine mandates. What qualifies as a "sincerly held" belief with respect to objecting to a vaccination mandate? Also, Fruity Pebbles donuts.
Mask politics in the donut kitchen Disney Princess lightning round commentary Christians and international religious freedom advocacy New abortion law in Texas John shares a personal story
Matt returns to the show following open heart surgery. The duo discuss the fall out of America's withdraw from Afghanistan, including a likely "brain drain"—the rapid departure of human and civic capital.
John Pinna welcomes friend, author, and former intelligence officer John Kiriakou to discuss Afghanistan immediately following its fall to the Taliban. *This is the first episode following a haitus during summer 2021. Our hiatus was extended as cohost Matt Hawkins is recovering from (successful) heart surgery. Special Guest: John Kiriakou.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt finally watches David Lynch's 1984 treatment of Dune and discusses the experience with John, who, incidentally is wearing his Dune t-shirt.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John debate the complexities of the latest flair up between Israel and Hamas.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John discuss the history of the USA's refugee resettlement program and President Biden's reluctant increase of the floor set by former president Trump.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John debate their respective proofs for the existence of a deit(ies) and pluralism. And why don't we get a sandwich with our vaccine?
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John observe how religion gets politicized and what antidote exists to protect religion from partisan politics.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). John Pinna and Manal Omar discuss their initial reflecitons on the results of the 2020 election. Special Guest: Manal Omar.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). John Pinna and Manal Omar discuss the headlines coming out of France. Special Guest: Manal Omar.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John welcome George A. Sorial, formerly Executive Vice President & Counsel to The Trump Organization, to discuss his background as a Coptic Christian, his career with The Trump Organization, and divisions in America. Special Guest: George A. Sorial.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John turn the interview tables on Crossing Faiths teammate, Hashaw Elkins, who shares about her life in her Mexican Jewish family and faith. Special Guest: Hashaw Elkins.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John discuss the ramifications of abortion politics in the 2020 election and beyond. (Recorded prior to the death of Ruth Bader Ginsburg.)
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John welcome speaker, author and TV host, Ireland native, Suzanne Selvester. Growing up Irish Catholic in Ireland Seeking healing, surrender, and contentment on a spiritual journey
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John welcome Manal Omar, founder and CEO of Across Red Lines, an organization that dedicated to creating safe spaces for Muslim women to understand their leadership power and life force energy through the wisdom provided to us from the Quran and Sunnah, as well as the many Muslim women pioneers that have shaped the history of Islam. Special Guest: Manal Omar.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John give their quick reflections on the Sept 29 debate between President Trump and former VP Joe Biden.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John welcome long time friend and fellow policy advocate Nathan Wineinger of 21 Wilberforce. The three discuss Nathan's backstory that inspired his career in advocacy and best practices for religions organizations entering the advocacy space. Special Guest: Nathan Wineinger.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). John and Matt welcome Senge Sering to discuss India, Kashmir, China, Pakistan. Special Guest: Senge Sering.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John catch up with their friend Father Deacon Andrew Bennett, Canada's former--and first ever-- Ambassador for Religious Freedom. Bennett now serves in multiple capacities including with Cardus (Canada's only faith-based think tank) and the Religious Freedom Institute in Washington, D.C. Special Guest: Fr. Dn. Andrew Bennett.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John debate to what extent evangelical pastors are using the pulpit to advance partisan political goals, what it looks like to non-evangelicals, and what nuance there might be amidst the noise.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John welcome John's long time friend Dr. JoAnne Myers, Associate Professor of Political Science at Marist College and author of The Good Citizen: The Markers of Privilege in America. Special Guest: Dr. JoAnne Myers.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John continue their discussion about American racism, policing, and seeking better terminology when we talk about solutions.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John discuss racism and policing in the context of the civil unrest triggered by the murders of George Floyd, Ahmaud Aubrey, and other black Americans.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John continue their conversation about some recent religion-related headlines.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Apologies for the technical diffiiculties heard during this episode. Matt thinks the interference you hear on his voice is because his phone was too close to his microphone cable. Rookie mistake! Matt and John discuss the in-fighting among American evangelicals over Trump and a survery about how religious people are thinking about Coronavirus and God. Bonus, we throw in some needless movie references, including shout outs to the Discman(TM)-wearing Willem Dafoe, the Oscar-deserving Bruce Willis, and the late Alan Rickman.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John discuss troubling religion surveys and conclude bad religion polling does more harm than good.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). On behalf of non-Muslims, Matt peppers John with questions about Ramadan, including: Why Ramadan is the best time to hang out with Muslims even if they're "hunger and angry" by moonrise. Is it appropriate to say, "Happy Ramadan?" Why does Ramadan seem to move around the calendar? What is iftar? What's the big deal bout dates and why is the fruit is an iftar tradition? What might a Muslim feel by the end of Ramadan? And, lastly, does a Christian participate in something "theologically Islamic" if they attend an iftar?
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). John and Matt debate the notion that America is in a post-Protesant era. The idea is the water Matt (evangelical) swims in, while John (Muslim) had never heard of such a thing.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). John and Matt kinda breach their promise to not talk #Quarantine, and discuss (for lack of a better word) a religious "exceptionalism" that prompts some faithful to believe they are immune from Coronavirus. The two parse a difference between that kind of exceptionalism (or, perhaps, exempt-ualism) and religious exclusivism. Also, what is jihad of the tongue?
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John discuss the risks and tradeoffs of antiquities collecting, including the recent scandal involving the Museum of the Bible.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John catch up after a March spring break. John returns to the states after time abroad. As the Coronavirus Pandemic spikes around the globe, he has to navigate international travel to make it back to New York. The two cohosts compare how Christians and Muslims are, respectively, adapting to social distancing and government mandated "safe at home" policies.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John talk Bernie Sanders. John retells a hot debate he got into with a millennial stranger in upstate New York.
Support this podcast via Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/crossingfaiths). Matt and John welcome Mustafa Akhwand is the founder and Executive Director of Shia Rights Watch. The trio discuss differences between Shia and Sunni Muslims, differences between Shia and Ismaili Muslims ("12ers" vs "6ers"), and the unique persecution face by Shia Muslims when a minority population. Matt and Mustafa share a common alma mater, each holding masters degrees from George Mason University (https://www2.gmu.edu). Special Guest: Mustafa Akhwand.
Matt and John rattle off on some headlines involving religion and politics, and the 2020 election.
Matt and John scramble to remember what to talk about. Topics end up including: Does the Quran allow a Muslim to be a friend with a Christian or a Jew? What is the "Q" document? Who wrote the first Gospel? (chronologically) What is the proper etiquette for buying lobsters en masse? And would a Muslim eat it anyway? Book review: What does Matt think about Atheist Muslim by Ali Rizvi?
Shino Yokotsuka, a Tokyo native and a PhD student in Boston, joins Matt and John to compare school prayer practices in United States and Japan. Did you know Japanese school children must dye their hair black if their hair isn't naturally black? Can western-style religious freedom be exported verbatim into collective cultures? Whose deity is referred to by "under God" in the U.S.A.'s Pledge of Allegiance? Also, is it really religious freedom if you must bow to an emperor? Special Guest: Shino Yokotsuka.
So what about this the Bible verse about being "unequally yoked"? Does it have to do with egg cholesterol? Matt and John debate the meaning and application of 2 Corinthians 6:14 within and beyond Christian circles. Also, what foods can you get past DC security checkpoints? Bonus: Matt and John riff on their favorite Chinese restaurants inside the beltway.
For a feature article in PASS USA's Vantage Points (http://www.pass-usa.net/vantagepoints), Hashaw Elkins (http://www.pass-usa.net/hashaw-elkins) interviews Matt and John about the origins of Crossing Faiths. Hashaw Elkins is a certified business analyst and project management consultant. Hashaw has led projects in operations, marketing, and human interest across multiple industries and sectors- ranging from the Fortune Global 500 to international nongovernmental organizations. She is passionate about inspiring and empowering people to sustainably bridge the gaps between assessment and execution. Hashaw studied International Security and Conflict Resolution, with secondary studies in religion, at San Diego State University. She holds a Master of Science in Project Management from the University of Wisconsin-Platteville. VantagePoints is the thought-leadership platform for PASS, it is a digital publication focused on leaders making a social impact for good. Our content is editorial, and focused on interviews with exceptional individuals, groups, and initiatives from across the world. Special Guest: Hashaw Elkins.
Matt and John preview their topics of focus for Season 2 in 2020, along with: Can we find "halal BBQ" in Nashville? John has a Sunday morning Penecostal experience Attacks on places of worship 4 reasons religious freedom is declining gloabally Release of prisoners of conscience Evangelicals, Trump, and 2020
Matt & John welcome John Prabhudoss (pro. 'prah-boo-dahs'), President of the Federation of Indian American Christian Organizations (https://www.fiacona.org), to discuss the latest protests in India over new citizenship laws passed by Parliament. Official USG channels have remained stunningly silent. Follow #CAAProtests on Twitter. Special Guest: John Prabhudoss.
Robert Nicholson, president of The Philos Project, joins the show to talk about his article, "Islam is Different—and That’s Okay." Excerpts: Islam is not Christianity; the Middle East is not the West. We share some things, yes, but there is no obvious reason why we should want to be the same. There is, in fact, a strong argument that pretended similarities will only frustrate real coexistence. The argument is simple: Islam is not Hebraic because it makes no place for the Hebrew Bible. The three religions also lack a common discourse because they do not share a common text. The degree to which America was inspired by Hebraic sources is directly proportional to America’s cultural disconnect from the Islamic world. As a Muslim, John both appreciated the article and wanted to challenge some of the points. Listen in and tell us what you think! Special Guest: Robert Nicholson.
John asks Matt about reliable Jesus/Isa info. John opens up about a lousy experience in a Catholic college. https://files.fireside.fm/file/fireside-uploads/images/4/4cf18e12-89ff-4d40-a6a4-fd9f0e63c8eb/ak12TCgl.jpg
Matt and John welcome Kristina Arriaga, a former USCIRF Commissioner. Arriaga recently resigned from the Commission in protest over an attempt by the U.S. Senate Foreign Affairs Committee to dramatically alter the structure and work of the Commission. Who is Kristina Arriaga? What is USCIRF? (pro. "you-surf") What’s been Kristina's overall experience as a commissioner? What are the problems with legislation recently proposed by the Senate Foreign Affairs Commission? Why did this drama compel you to resign? What should IRF advocates/USA citizens know about USCIRF’s precarious position now? How bad is religious illiteracy at the State Department and why does it matter? Intersection of religious freedom and woman’s issues. Special Guest: Kristina Arriaga.
John reports from London on the multifaith collaboration he witnessed on the ground in Kurdistan following the withdraw of U.S. troops. Anglophiles and fans of Downton Abbey will have to pardon our short rant against the United Kingdom's divine right and the House of Lords. But it's a little ridiculous.
After the United States withdraws troops from Kurdistan, precipitating a brutal invasion of the region by Turkey, John Pinna travels with Father John Anderson (Greek Orthodox) to the region. While in Erbil, "Halal John" and Father John share their on the ground perspective with Matt. Themes: 1. A previously flourishing multi-faith community 2. Successful multifaith action hasn't been recognized, now it's being destroyed. 3. Catastrophic humanitarian crisis. Also, * John Pinna wonders why he hears basically the same theological explanations from Greek Orthodox and Baptists. * And he finally gets an answer about "Jesus' abs" (why do displays of Jesus on the cross typically depict Christ as having a very defined, muscular abdomen?). * We skip a rock across the distinctives of the Greek Orthodox Church. Photos from their trip available here (https://saintnicholasfreedom.org/religious-freedom/). Special Guest: Father John Anderson.
John Pinna relays his expectations and hopes for Afghanistan following the September 28th election.
Matt and John talk impeachment and one evangelical pastor predicting civil war. John admits his D&D roots and they discuss their results on the Political Compass.
Sunni, Wahhabi, Shia, Sufi, Ismaili, Ahmadiyya, Twelvers. Will the true Muslim please stand up? What makes a Muslim? What are the implications of non-Muslims declaring what is "true" Islam? Also, a review of President Trump's religious freedom declaration at the United Nations.
Self-flaggelation during Ashura Did Jesus' cloak hold magical healing powers? Do Hindus and Muslims worship the same god?" Will the Senate-passed Uyghur Human Rights Policy Act (S.178) have any teeth?
Matt and John review the Netflix series "The Family:" What does it matter as a citizen? What does it matter as a Christian? Is The Fellowship a cult? What about the Washington ecosystem did the documentary leave out?
Following a quote tweet from the president, Matt and John talk messianic impulses and the American presidency.
Matt and John talk military parades, BBQ, jihadis (is it a word?), some theology, and ask if there is such a thing as "halal pork."
Matt and John wonder about supposed "Jesus' nails" found in Caiaphas' ossuary in Israel. John is fascinated by Moses' staff, currently in Turkey.
Matt confesses an awkward moment walking into a wudu space. John gets nervous in an evangelical prayer circle. https://files.fireside.fm/file/fireside-uploads/images/4/4cf18e12-89ff-4d40-a6a4-fd9f0e63c8eb/nA7BXwcj.jpeg