EBU Access Cast: Recent Episodes
European Blind Union
Wellcome to the last transcribed edition of the Ebu Access Cast for 2021. Stay tuned till the end because we prepared many nice things for you and if you stay listening, you will hear surprising announcement at the end. However if you are really curious skip out to the end of the shownotes to find out what did we say.
Mario bought him self a nice and cheap pair of Sennheiser HD 206 studio headset. On the current list of the best budget studio headsets for 2021, this one sits on the first place.
Hlynur got him self Roborock S7 – vacuum cleaner, and Tanja got Seagate One touch 5 tb hard drive as well as SanDisk Ultra Trek™ USB 3.0 Flash Drive 128 GB
Another piece of a cool and free gadget is LION - Live, intelligent OCR for NVDA which is able to read direct subtitles. Pawel discovered new addon for NVDA called NVDA Advanced OCR which is able to make direct OCR from the PDF document. Keep in mind that the addon is still in the early stages of development, but it is already very promissing, so if you want to know more about it check it out on its Github page.
We are very close to Christmas and black Friday is just behind us, therefore we bring to you a nice article fromm Kelly Ford called Black Friday Accessibility Deals Free for the Taking
TwBlue, a famous third party Twitter Client has new version out, and we will talk about what you need to do in order to get it running because direct instalation over previous version will not work.
Whatsapp started offering their new beta version of their Client for Windows which we found out to be much more accessible than official release, therefore if you wish to try it out on your pc, here is what you need to do.
If you own Samsung Android smartphone which you recently purchased, you are probably wondering when you will get the update to the newest One UI 4? Which comes with Android 12? Well no worries, Android Police prepared a nice article with all information.
StSolutions is the company which makes nice online accessible software by using a JS library called designer.js, and Pawell will tell us more about it.
AstroAccess is a website which talks about persons with dissability travelling into space. Our inspector gadget Pawell knows more about it.
Our show lasted since May of 2018, during this time we had a nice long season with all of you, and we really enjoyed making it. However due to the many different occupations from each of us who are having our daily jobs, Ebu Access Cast will be taking a break for a while, therefore EBU will keep you informed if the show returns with new crew members, or if the podcast will transform into something different. In the mean time, Mario, Tanja, Pawel and Hlynur wish you all the best for the upcoming holidays, so if you want to follow us individualy, search for us on Twitter and you will find us for sure.
Transcription of the EBU Access Cast episode 35 [Jingle]
This programme is financially supported by the fundings from the European Commission.
You are listening to the EBU Access Cast. The official podcast from the European Blind Union about assistive technology for blind and partially sighted people. And here is our host.
(Mario) Welcome to the last episode of the EBU Access Cast for 2021. My name is MarioPerčinić , as you all know, and I'm coming to you from Luxembourg. But no worries. No worries, guys. I'm not alone. I have with me, my co-hosts. First, we have a ladies first. So here we have a Tanja Kleut from Luxembourg. Hello.
(Tanja) Hello, Mario. Hello, everyone.
Then we have somewhere in Austria who is locked in lockdown. Mr. Masarczyk.
(Pawel) Greetings from lockdown Austria.
(Mario trying to talk german) Yes.Halo ..
(Pawel) . Hallo, hallo, Grüß Gott!
(Mario) And then we have somewhere near the volcano in Iceland. Yes, Mr Hlynur thor How are you doing?
(Hlynur) Going good. Hey guys, Hey everyone. Yeah, actually, the volcano is is over, but we might be waiting for the next one. So keep you posted.
(Mario) Well, I was reading that you are planning to dig some huge hole in the volcano to do some more examinations or something like that.
(Hlynur) Yeah, we're just to attract tourists, maybe.
(Mario) Oh yeah, OK. Crazy Icelanders.
(Hlynur) Whatever works.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, so we are approaching the end of the year. Anything new?
(everyone) Know, nah nah.
(Mario) Yeah. Ok. Yeah. So yes, we just passed Black Friday. And to be honest, I cannot say that there were too many interesting stuff, uh, over this year, especially not in the assistive tech industry. I have to say that,lots of discounts were just some kind of. Yeah, we have some kind of very small discount, but it's not, anything serious that was happening. have you noticed that
(Pawel) Nothing major, I think there were some discounts on Envision AI 30 percent,
(Mario) No. 15
(Pawel) 15
(Mario) If it would be 30, I would be fine with that. I mean, I already bought my lifetime licence, so it's fine. But I think that both of the companies started to abuse the fact it's something called Black Friday and they they're starting to give, you know, the thing which they call discounts. But in fact, these are so small discounts that you have to think whether you want to buy something or not.
(Hlynur) Yeah, here we are also dealing with the issue that they are actually making the prices higher in the weeks and months before Black Friday.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah.
(Hlynur) The discount is actually maybe 10 percent higher than it did cost five months earlier. So, honourable,
Gadgets corner (Mario) Yes, but that doesn't mean that we didn't collect some gadgets for you and this time, believe it or not, it's not the Inspector Gadget who is going to recommend something, at least not for the beginning. It's actually it's me. I got myself. A new, very affordable studio headset. From Sennheiser, a very famous German company. The headset is called Sennheiser HD206 and on the on some websites where they recommend different on budget studio headsets this one is the first place. Believe it or not, and it's it's not expensive at all. We are talking about like 40 euro price range for the for the headset, which, according to its specs, works as some headsets, which are even three times more expensive, which is really cool. It has. It's very light, first of all. So you can wear it for a long time on your head without having any kind of fatigue, then the sound on it is it's really good. I was very surprised. You can hear like very good separations of the instruments when you listen to the stuff. It has quite decent bass response. I know that Pawel is very, very big fan of the bass,
(Pawel) yes.
(Mario) So it's it works quite OK. The the frequency response goes from 20 to 18000 hertz and the headset is closed. So when you when you wear it, your ears are covered inside of this earpads, which are made from some kind of synthetic leather. But it really holds up very well. I have to say so far the headset has 3 metre cable with the three point five, Jack, so you can connect to any kind of mobile phones which have a3.5 Headset slot, but also you get the jack to go from3.5 to 6 mm, so that's also that's also supported. And I have to say that the biggest surprise for me was the fact that when I took the headset out of the box. I was first worried how I'm going to distinguish which of the speakers goes to which ear because they look totally the same from the front and from the back side. But then I started exploring and I discovered something that completely struck me because you don't see this kind of thing very often on the devices. And that was braille marking on the left speaker, which said L. And I was like, Am I seeing this correctly or what? But it's true. There is a there is a letter engraved into the plastic, so it's not like a sticker. It's really engraved into the plastic, so it will not go away.
(Hlynur) Awesome.
(Mario) And I had to, you know, I wanted to test if this is really true.
So I made the speaker test on my PC and it turns out to be right. So the left is really left it. Uh, yeah, it's the sound is really it's really good. I really like it. And even though the cable is like you have a 3 metres of cable, which is a little bit long, uh, the cable is a bit kind of coily. So you want to be a little bit, you want to take care of the headset, just that you don't smash your cable somewhere, but I think it will last for a while. So which is which is really good. I mean, considering the price, you don't get these interchangeable cables, which are, of course, popular on the more expensive versions of the studio headsets. But still, it's it's really not expensive. So I would definitely recommend that for for the gadget. And yeah, it's I use it now for about what, three weeks and so far so good really. They don't have anything to say. They even survived a few light fails. So
(Pawel) That's important.
(Mario) Yes. Yes. So all good. All. And as I said, you know, once you wear them on your head, they are also adjustable for different kinds of your heads, whether you have bigger or smaller head. And yeah, and they also isolate the noise quite well. It's not like you're completely deaf when you put them on, but you still have, uh, quite good separation from the from the rest of the noise, which is which is good.
(Pawel) I think this braille markings I have seen on headsets before, I can't tell which brand they were. Maybe it was also Sennheiser, but I'm not sure. But I'm pretty sure I've seen this before, but it's not on the Bluetooth ones I have.
(Mario) Mm hmm. Yeah,
(Pawel) but the Bluetooth ones also separate. I mean, the noise cancellation is very good also. So I can actually watch Netflix and do my vacuum cleaning
(Mario) Aha nice.
(Hlynur) Living the dream.
(Mario) Yes. Yes. So that would be also my recommendation for if anybody wants to get some new headset, I mean, keep in mind that you can, as the price is quite good, you don't have to be any kind of a studio musician or whatever. But if you are a fan of quite good audio, this would be my recommendation for the Christmas present as well.
(Pawel) And this is just for listening. There is no microphone on it.
(Mario) No, no, no.
(Pawel) Ok.
(Mario) Just for listening. Mm hmm. Anybody else something to recommend?
(Hlynur) I can.
I can share that. I got a robotic vacuum cleaner for Black Friday and the Am I Roborock S7???. It has been cleaning my apartment every day since then. And. Geez, I just love it. I had one one robot before some Chinese manufactured one. I think it lasted about a year before it broke down and there was no one in the country because the company that I bought it from, they had gone bankrupt. So there was basically nothing that I could do except to throw it away. But this one, it has like no hairs on the brushes. So hairs from the pet, from the dog, don't stick.
(Mario) Mm hmm.
(Hlynur) And the first week has gone really, really well. I can I know I can connect it to my hopefully Christmas present, which would be a Google Home Assistant, so I could ask it to ask Google to clean, clean the house. While mapping of the apartment is is awesome. So I can like and if if I'm asking him to mop like with a wet cloth, it has a water tank in it so I can distinguish in the app like where I have carpets. So that would be a no mopping zone. If it was mopping and I can set everything up and just let it run. So all I need to do is just empty the filter and the the tray like every two or three days.
(Mario) Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
(Hlynur) Well, I highly recommend, but. I mean, it's not the cheapest piece that you can you can buy, and having had two of them, one was quite cheap. This one was like twice the price. I would go as I mean, they are smarter as the price goes up.
(Mario) Sure. I mean, that's also what I heard from various people who are using these kind of robotic vacuum cleaners that you really in this case, have to put some more money into these kind of devices in order to to get to get what they are supposed to do because the cheap ones are cheap for a reason.
(Hlynur) Yeah, I mean, you can get you can get a cheap one. I think the earlier one that I had was around maybe two hundred and seventy euros. Uh, this one was at a discount. It was around 700 euros. Yeah. I mean, I don't regret it. It works like ten times better than the previous one day.
(Tanja) But what was the brand that you said
(Hlynur) I Roborock S7??? Now, like two major brands, it would be the Roomba and the Roborock, so that would be like if you search YouTube, then you can find. Dozens of Earth??? compartment videos between the Roomba and theRoborock.
(Mario) Yeah, I know that, for example, in Croatia, whenever I looked like some commercials, they are recommending Roombas a lot.
(Hlynur) Yeah, yeah, those are the two like big brands.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, and I heard that those very expensive Roombas, if we talk about like like seven 800 euros or a bit more are really good.
(Hlynur) That's that's what I saw. Yeah. And of course, like with these, these gadgets, like with all good employees, they work better if you make them work every day.
(Mario) Aha Yeah, yeah. You see. So go ahead and abuse your vacuum cleaners every day they tell you robots to work. Send them, send them to work for them. Yes, they feel useful then. Yes. Yes. Pawel,
(Pawel) yes
(Mario) Do you have something hiding in your in your back pocket,
(Hlynur) Maybe in a box
(Mario) Or in the box?
(Pawel) No, it's actually in a drawer, but I can't say much about it, so I don't know if it's worth mentioning. Oh, I didn't even test it. I didn't even pack it out yet. Oh, it's the great. It's the final countdown. So, you Know,
(Mario) so sad, OK,
(Pawel) I know.
(Mario) How do you keep having this in the drawer still?
(Pawel) I don’t know, but…
(Mario) It’s a temptation?
(Pawel) Yeah.
(Tanja) Yeah How do you manage? Is it locked the drawer?
(Pawel) At the moment.
(Hlynur) From the inside
(Pawel) NO its not on Lockdown, it’s not on lockdown, but maybe, maybe it would be 13 days to go before I unpack? I don't know.
Maybe it will be mini.
The the box isn't. The box is actually quite compact. I expected the box to be bigger.
(Mario) Oh yeah. Okay.
(Pawel) So they don't apply this rule anymore. That if you yeah, if they want you to feel, yeah, sort of. Yeah, I would. It's flat. Definitely it's flat. It wasn't very big when when the Postal Service brought it. It's yeah, I don't think they apply this rule anymore, that if you want the customer to feel valued, that they bought something really worthwhile, you have to give them a big box. Now this is not the case anymore. But yeah.
(Mario) OK
(Pawel) It's 13 and it's mini. Yeah. Let's leave it at that.
(Tanja) And it's from an apple tree.
(Mario) Yeah, it fell from Apple Tree.
(Pawel) Yes.
(Mario) Okay, good. So you're saying bye bye to Android.
(Pawel) Actually, I'm going to be the double agent. I will… uh…
(Mario) Russian spy. Ok.
(Pawel) I don't know. Motorola used to be American. This is also American. I don't know.
(Mario) Yeah. American made in Foxconn.
(Pawel) Yeah, right now. Yes. Right now. Yes.
(Mario) Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
(Pawel) Well, well, we'll see. We'll see what happens. But I'm curious about the comparisons of apps like what's accessible, where better and so on. This could be interesting.
(Mario) Yeah. Good luck with your daily charging. Yeah, I hope that. I hope that this will uh, this will work better than it used to be because I know that people who got the 12 minis complained a lot about battery.
(Pawel) I think somebody made a nice description or a report on this on Applevis and this person got apparently 10 hours whilst using it all the time for something like sometimes with lock screen, sometimes with the screen unlocked and everything was there. Youtube, radio, Seeing AI, navigation, whatever. And this person got 10 hours out of this device, so I don't think it will be that bad, especially at the beginning.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
(Pawel) Well, we'll see
(Mario) If you would be able to last for a day. That's ok.. Yeah, yeah. Well, well, well, OK. Anybody else?
(Tanja) Yes, me.
(Mario) Oh, what do you have?
(Tanja) So I have something new, which I opened. The box is opened. Yes. And it is a Seagate external portable hard disk drive. The model is One Touch and it is a small, portable device with five Tera Tera.
(Mario) Five tera tera? Ok.
(Tanja laughing)
(Tanja) And it has a 3.2USB generation 1.
(Mario) Ooh.
(Tanja) Yeah, it's a small 2.5 inch disk, so it's really portable. You can put it in a bag and carry wherever you need so much data with you. And if it is like my previous Seagate, which I had, which is 4 tera, it should be durable because the previous one fall so many times and it's still working. But I wanted to be sure that the data that I have will not just disappear at some moment because I wanted to have a new one. So it seems durable already, and if it is like a previous one, it should be.
(Mario) Yeah, make sure that you don't play Frisbee with it…
(Tanja) Yeah
(Mario) …too much. Yeah, at this time, the portable storage space. It's important, yes, to say the least.
(Tanja) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, it happened to me before in the past that the disk just died at some moment and then you lose all your data. I think this is even worse than, you know, your device dying because you can buy a new one, but you cannot find your data anymore, so it's good to have it stored in more than one place.
(Mario) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Nice. Nice. Nice. Nice. Good.
(Tanja) And also another disk, which is from SanDisk. And it is the ultra, the model is. Ultra Trek Ruggedised and it is 128 gigabytes with 3.1 USB
(Mario) A USB flash disk?
(Tanja) A USB stick. And its advantage is, as the name says, that it's really robust so it can fall, it can fall even in water. It's waterproof. You can so well, it can fall in water, you can go under the rain and it will not die as all other USB sticks. And I consider this quite important element considering that here in Luxembourg, it rains all the time.
(Mario) That's that's unfortunately very true.
(Hlynur) Tell me about it.
(Mario) Yeah, I think we have more rain than you do in Iceland.
(Tanja) Do you think so? But we don't have a clue.
(Hlynur) At least that's where you live. It rains like vertically.
(Mario) Yeah, well.
(Tanja) Maybe you have more snow?
(Mario) Yes, that's for sure.
(Hlynur) Yeah, yeah.
(Tanja) Well, I'm happy with my purchase anyway.
(Mario) Great. So lots of lots of techies this month, but it's this kind of year, so that's expected.
Accessibility in the news LION - Live LION - Live
(Mario) Moving on to the next stuff that appeared in the assistive tech and the next stuff that appeared is, it actually it's free, but it's very useful, especially for us who want to watch something with subtitles. It's an NVDA add-on for the subtitles called Lion Live and is actually available, available for quite some time, but for some reason lots of people don't know about it. And therefore I think it's time to introduce the people to it because it's really powerful. Basically, the add-on is doing a real time OCR. In the real time and with it, you can read all kinds of subtitles which were not previously possible for us to read, such as the subtitles for from the live TV programmes, which have subtitles, you can also watch the YouTubes with the subtitles which will be read to you as well. Or I know that Pawel you also made some experience with some videos where you launched the video and there were some stuff on the videos which was read to you as well.
(Pawel) Yes, I actually have a friend of mine and I, we have experimented with videos that we have ourselves taken. In my case, it was basically riding a bus in some city where I was taking a small holiday and I was, I wanted to show at the time to my family where I was and what kind of landscapes there are. So I just pointed the phone randomly out of the bus window and I let it basically capture anything it came across. And what I did then was I played this video on the computer and I switched on the Lion add-on and it started reading out the inscriptions on the buildings that I was. We were passing with the bus, and in some cases it even got enough of the name right. So I could look it up on Google, and it was actually a place in that town where I was, so I knew I was definitely driving past that place. And also, in case of my friend, he could clearly hear, like the underground station name, he was passing by some newsstands, passing by some shops and other buildings, and everything was read out. So you might want to do some experiments like this also if you take some videos from time to time. So it's a nice experiment.
(Mario) Yeah, sounds like a nice tool for spying. Yeah. No, no, no.
(Hlynur) Awesome for double agents.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
(Pawel) This is actually a bit like seeing where you were. I mean, it's an interesting feeling like you don't notice these things when you are blind and you just go by and then you just rewatch it and you hear the sound at the same time, you hear the soundscapes and you hear announced like, OK, you just passed, I don't know, some kind of restaurant or whatever, bus stop. And you know this, and it's almost like you could see it. It's a nice feeling.
(Mario) The add-on itself has also the possibility of some fine tweaking. Let's say like that, because sometimes you have the situations where the subtitles which you are reading are not at the top of the screen, but they're instead positioned at the bottom of the screen or lower portion of the screen. So the element allows you to set also the time for recognising. And you can also adjust which portion of the screen you want to have recognised. And so it works better. I noticed, for example, that, for instance, I put it like on 70 percent towards lower part of the screen, and it's working just fine, so I don't put to recognise the whole window. And we did most of the subtitles, it works just fine for some TV programmes some sub subtitles are not reading 100 percent accurate, but it has to do with, I don't know with the font maybe which is used. So instead of like announcing our special characters in Croatian, it will allow some strange signs. But on the other hand, if you switch to some other channel, it will read just fine. So I suppose it's really connected to the type of fonts used, but it works. It does work.
(Tanja) Maybe it depends. I'm sorry. Maybe it depends also on the background, you know, behind the subtitles, if it is darker or lighter colour,
(Mario( It could be, it could be I. If I really have no clue what I what I eventually do know is the fact that you need to have your screen curtain off. So that's the most, most important thing to do because when I started experimenting with it, I had my screen curtain on and it didn't want to work, even though I turn it on and everything was supposed to be working and why this doesn't read. And then I realised like, Oh, let's try to turn the screen curtain off. And as soon as I turn it off, it's started working. So yes.
(Tanja) Did you try to watch for some videos with subtitles on YouTube?
(Mario) Sure. Yeah.
(Tanja) Because I wondered then does it read you also the buttons from YouTube?
(Mario) What kind of buttons?
(Tanja) I don't know. Stop video and you know, this….
(Pawel) This is why we're putting on full screen.
(Mario) Yeah, you have to put it on the full screen in order to read it completely. And the way how I use it basically is to first, I would first start the add-on because you have a shortcut, it's NVDA alt L to start and stop the addon so you don't need to have it running all the time. So first I would I would start the add-on and then launch the YouTube and then put the YouTube on the full screen for the player to the full screen. And then it should be able to read just fine. Keep in mind also that then you have to adjust like, there are videos which have the subtitles in multiple languages, so you want to adjust also, the subtitles in the YouTube itself like which language do you want to follow and to read.
(Tanja) Yes, but not only, sometimes people burn the subtitles on the video, so you cannot select them even from the menu, but they are on the image.
(Mario) Yeah. But that's, uh, should be read. It's that that's why it is. Yeah, so it's it should be reading it.
(Tanja) Yeah, this is the advantage, because for burned subtitles, we never managed to read them, only with subtitles that are added as text.
(Mario) Yeah, but even though even though speaking of the possibilities and reading the subtitles, I also found out recently that even though it existed for a while, but I haven't used it, there is a one player for Windows. It's called Pod Player, which Pawel, I think you are familiar with.
(Pawel) Yes.
(Mario) Uh, and the fact is, the thing with the Pod Player is that it's able to read the subtitles and not even the subtitles which are just standard, you know, separated subtitles, but also you can select with the Pod Player the subtitles which are embedded into the file. But then you have to use Lion for that. So, for instance, it's able to like you are able to choose the language of the subtitles which are being embedded, but then you have to use the Lion live to read them. But it works.
(Tanja) Is there any possibility in Lion to select the language or is it English for the moment only?
(Pawel) It just goes by the standard NVDA settings. So I think whatever you set in the Windows OCR or Windows 10 OCR settings, that's what Lion will use. I think that's how it works.
(Mario) Possible yes.
(Hlynur) Do you know how many languages it supports?
(Pawel) Probably as many as Windows 10.
(Mario) Yeah, OK, maybe. Hmm. This is interesting, now I have. I have to experiment a bit more because I didn't set. My NVDA is in English. And my recognition languages are also in English, so if I would send them to Croatian, I wonder if then the subtitles would be read correctly in terms of pronouncing the special characters, I have to try that. But yes. But eventually it does work, and it's a really cool thing to recommend.
NVDA Advanced OCR (Pawel) Yeah. Also, we discussed this quite quickly before the show, but it's a sort of like a last minute thing that appeared, I think, two days ago or yesterday on GitHub. There is this new Add-On called NAO, NVDA advanced OCR, which also lets you use this Windows 10 OCR mechanism to scan or to recognise the whole document in PDF or images in JPG or any kind of graphic format. The way it works is you just highlight the file in the Windows Explorer and you hit NVDA Shift R, and it will do the scanning on the whole file and show you in the edit box where you can read it and just with your arrow keys. And I tried it.
(Mario) It's basically something like the convenient OCR for JAWS.
(Pawel) Yes.
(Mario) Which is great.
(Pawel) It doesn't do tables, I guess, so if you are about the layout, I don't think it will help much, but it definitely deals with multipage documents. You can use page up page down to switch between the pages, and it's nice for very simple OCR if you just need to take a look. But if you need layout, I guess you will need a special software again.
(Mario) Sure. But it doesn't mean that as it just came out, it might be coming in the future versions. (Paweł) Yeah,
(Mario) yeah.
(Paweł) yeah, sure.
(mario) But it's great. It's it's really great, especially because we all know that the daily basis we are encountering the situation is inaccessible. Pdf is not there and that we are promoting some kind of technology to dismiss the importance of the accessibility of the documents. But we all know how it goes in the live situations. You need to have a bunch of tools with you all the time. So this will. This is definitely one also to have. Oh, OK. So yes, we'll put the link to the GitHub of this, uh, NVDA advanced OCR as well. So who wants to grab it? You can go and grab it, and then we can move on to the next recommendation.
Black Friday Accessibility Deals Free for the Taking And the next recommendation is the article from the Mr Kelly Ford. He is quite famous person in the assistive tech for quite some time from the states. And basically, he wrote a really nice article, a funny one called Black Friday. Accessibility deals. Free for the taking. And eventually, if you read through the article, you can see that it can be applied to any kind of a year. Not only for the Black Friday. So have you read it, guys?
(Hlynur) Yeah, gaised through it.
(Mario) What do you think? I mean, the points that he made like? Promote the future along with the past is good one.
(Hlynur) Mm hmm.
(Mario) Like, know your accessibility, support the accessible employment, Have the plan and be adaptable. Involved a user. In the meantime, in meaningful ways, it's it's these are really good points in the article because he speaks about basically what you have to do in order to promote the accessibility solutions when you need to implement them.
(Hlynur) I guess it's hard for me to like, like the things that he's saying, it's pretty much the same thing that I'm working with every day. Sure. So I know these things, but I agree totally. I think it's it's brilliantly written and and well laid out. So I agree with him around 175 percent.
(Mario) 175?
(Hlynur) out of 120.
(Mario) Okay. No, no. It's a I think it's very nice piece of information draughted. And yeah, it's it would be something that, you know, we who are working on the promotion and implementation of the accessibility would have to send it to the developers. Like I would attach this article to any kind of developer. When you have to engage somebody new to do their job, like, what are you supposed to do? Well, you know, go through this.
(Tanja) You can put this article in your signature link.
(Mario) Yeah, sure.
(Tanja) Then you spread it all around.
(Mario) That's uh,
(Hlynur) that's actually a pretty good idea.
TwBlue newest update (Mario) That's a good idea. Yes. Ok, so after we recommended some accessibility tips, we can move on to the news from the Twitter. Eventually, it's not directly from theTwitter , but connected to the Twitter because TWBlue, the famous third party Twitter clients in the blindness community got the newest update from November, and eventually they got pretty much some some news related to the new Twitter API, which were not supported in the previous versions of the third party clients. However, what I found out is that you cannot do a regular installation over the previous version because if you do that, it will not open and it will hang and it will not do anything. And if you try to change something in the compatibility mode and then it will say that it's not compatible and blah blah blah blah blah. So after Googling around, I discovered that you need to basically delete your old config profile and re-authorize the app again on the Twitter in order to run it. So once you reauthorize it, it will create your new config. And it will recognise that. So that's the important thing that you remember if you want to use it. Of course, you will then lose your timelines, which you have to create again. So if you are having the lists, the list will work fine. It will stay because the lists are saved on Twitter itself. But you will have to recreate your timelines again, as well as the timelines or the list of followers or whatever you are following. And of course, also the list of your searches will be gone, so that's something to consider. But once you get it going, there are some nice things implementedPawel, you saw some?
(Pawel) So yes, yes, actually, this is thanks to Twitter finally working on their API again, namely on the API V2, which finally brings for third party developers access to the features that have been there for many, many years. But Twitter never bothered to include them in the API such as polls . So the ability to vote in polls to create them, respond to them to view the results and the ability to determine who can respond to our tweets. When you're writing a tweet, you can actually choose OK. To this tweet, only my followers can reply, or only people I mentioned can reply or nobody or everyone. And I think there will be more and more features coming up. I think there were even some announcements that the Twitter spaces might actually make it into the API at some point. And it would be handy, I think, to have the ability to join and enjoy Twitter spaces in our third party clients, especially if we enjoy these interfaces. So let's see what the future holds. But for now, the polls and specific reply settings this is what came is coming yet. And yeah, I'm quite looking forward to how this will develop in the future.
(Mario) Yes. They also implemented completely new sound schemes, which you need to get used to. Luckily, there is the possibility of checking this out in the help section. From the client, so yeah, if you want to give a try to the newTwBlue Go ahead and install it, the link will be in our show notes.
Whatsapp beta (Mario) Speaking of the news and the apps there is also there are also news for the users of the desktop WhatsApp because eventually WhatsApp is bringing out new beta versions also for Windows and you for the moment, anybody can join the beta programme again. And then you are able to you are able to download the app from the Microsoft Store. And then it installs, you need to authorise it with your credentials. And once you're in, you will be very much surprised by the look of the app, how it looks because it's completely redesigned than the older version of the desktop clients for the WhatsApp, Because
(Tanja) or the current, the current.
(Mario) Oh yes. Yes, yes. Ok, let's see.
(Tanja) But do we know? Do we know the version of the current of the beta
(Mario) didn't check? But it's possible. Yes, yes.
(Tanja) It's better that we say the number because current and new will mean nothing in two months, you know?
(Mario) Well, if you go to the Microsoft Store, for example, and you will search for WhatsApp if you just see a WhatsApp, that's the official version were for WhatsApp beta. It says that it's beta. So that's also think which which is different and. What I wanted to say that the new version is completely redesigned, the beta version now looks as the modern. Yeah, modern modern apps from Microsoft, but which are being accessible at the same time, almost, I would say almost 100 percent. It's not. It's not yet 100 percent accessible, but it's still being in beta, so keep that in mind. However, I'm really happy to see that, for instance, you don't need any more scripts or special add ons for the Screen reader in order to use most of the features for people who used, for example Unigram which is a third party client for Telegram on Windows. This is very, very similar. The interface is like very comparable and very similar to that. So basically, you are like navigating with Tab and shift tab between all the various options. And yes, it works right now. You can do the voice calls, video calls, respond to the messages via text and read them. You can even reproduce the voice messages, but you can. You cannot still send them, so it's not still available, but I'm sure they will implement it at a certain point. Anybody tried it?
(Tanja) Yes, yes. Actually for me in a group where I am it happened that the three messages were mixed in one line, so I was able to see a one message and then the second message was not visible. And the third message was in the same line as the other one, but without the name. So the three messages were mixed and one was not visible. This happened to me in one group, but I don't know. For some other it was OK. I don't know if it makes a difference, whether it is a new message or a reply to a message. Ok, so so this was a problem that I noticed in the group, but I was able to see it properly on the iPhone. Also better because if you are in beta programme, you have to be both on all your devices in this programme. And also what I note is that, for example, you now can receive notifications in WhatsApp, even if the WhatsApp app on the desktop is closed.
(Mario) Yeah, that's true.
(Tanja) It happened to me that I received a message. I did not open it, but I activated the computer and I received the message. So then actually, I it depends. It depends what you prefer, but it is activated in the notifications of windows because there is the place where you can disable
The notification and
(Mario) also from the settings in the WhatsApp beta as well.
(Tanja) Oh, you can OK because I disable it from the Windows notifications.
(Mario) You can do that. I checked the settings. It's everything is accessible so it can be turned on, on or off or off.
(Tanja) Okay.
(Pawel) Yes, I think it's worth keeping the notifications on the Windows side on because the from what I have seen so far, the notification is the only way to pick up an incoming call. So whenever a call is coming, the only way you can do this is you go into your notifications, you find the notification of the call and with the tab you find, accept or refuse buttons.
(Tanja) But this is if your WhatsApp window is closed, no?
(Pawel) Yes, yes, true. But even if because when the call comes, the window comes up in the to the forefront, but there is no button inside the app itself to pick it up.
(Mario) Oh.
(Pawel) I haven't found one. Maybe, maybe I don't know. Maybe it's somewhere in the object navigation. Maybe it's somewhere else, but I haven't found it, so the only way I found is to go through notifications and pick up from there.
(Tanja) Ok, no, I have to see this because my problem is that often I use the computer for work and of course, I don't want to messages popping up all the time. I have to see this.
(Pawel) Maybe then you can just switch off for the messages. We'll have to see. But yes, I am quite happy with this also, because finally, it's working in that way that you can even have your phone turned off completely, which I tried because I had a situation where my my phone battery went completely flat and still somebody was calling me and I could receive this on my computer and we were talking and everything was fine. So you don't need WhatsApp to be on anymore or your phone to be on anymore for this to work, which is great. The only thing that doesn't work so far that I have seen, of course, you cannot send voice messages. We spoke about this, but also if you go into the details of a group chat, for example, I wanted to find a particular person in a group chat to send them a message privately. This is not labelled. It still reads it as WhatsApp group members list something something so it's not reading out the actual values. But other than this, it's quite accessible. And you can even see if you have unread messages, it will tell you.
(Mario) Yes.
(Pawel) If you focus a chat. I don't think you can jump straight to the beginning of the unread thing starts.
I don't think this is possible, but this is probably something that will be either solved on the side of WhatsApp or on the side of some NVDA addon that might be developed in the future. Because for Unigram, there is already an add on and it's really good. If you can, you can jump to the unread parts. Also, this is interesting because I think this also this week there was a new beta of messenger out on Windows 10, and this messenger is also done in a similar fashion. I think that's what I was told. And it's not accessible so you can navigate the messages, but they are just buttons with no description. You have to use the object navigation to find the message behind the buttons. So it's interesting how the same company can make one app so nice and the other one so bad. But it's good that the WhatsApp is there. I find it very practical. And it's very good, even if I want to send something some link from my computer to some friends on WhatsApp, it's very practical.
(Mario) Sure. Yeah, I definitely agree. What I found out is the information that if you are running WhatsApp beta without your phone turned on, then you are able to do that for the period of two weeks. So after if after the period of two weeks, your phone is not turned on, then you are being logged out. Oh,
(Pawel) OK.
(Mario) So that's the thing to know to be noted that AR the WhatsApp news. If nobody else has anything to add.
(Hlynur) I might add that visually it it works up very great, no worse than the messenger when it comes to like being visible contrasts. Text size and such apps.
(Tanja) is it better from the previous or current version?
(Hlynur) Actually, this is I just recently started using the WhatsApp for Windows, so I'm not not familiar with the previous versions of it. So I'm and also I'm not a frequent WhatsApp user, am I like I have four or five groups that I'm in? But I've only been using it for a few months. You guys were actually my first WhatsApp group.
(Mario) Oh, yes.
(Hlynur) So congratulations.
the newest One UI 4 for Samsung devices Mario) (Mario) Nice, nice. Moving on, moving on to the next thing, and that's kind of interesting stuff for the Samsung users because last year we promoted, uh, when the users would get their Android 11 this year, we will give the link to the Android Central List, which compiled the resources from various sites about the UI for implementation from Samsung and the installation of the Android 12. So when these when is it coming? Well, it depends where you are in the world and which phone do you have? Basically, if you check to the list, you can see that for us Europeans, it will come from December with people who have the newest like S21. Up to August next year, for instance, my phone will get it in May. I will have to wait for a while.
(Hlynur) Yeah, they're taking their time with this one.
(Mario) Yes, they are taking the time with this one, even though they might surprise us. I remember when we were looking at the previous list for the last year. I think my phone was listed to get it in March and I got it at the beginning of February, so we never know. Maybe it comes earlier than expected, but according to the info that we have for now, it's coming in May for my phone, which is Ex Cover Pro. Model from Samsung, so yes, but it's OK considering the information, what's coming, what's new in the accessibility? Well, that's kinder. Surprise to say the least, especially for the TalkBack users, because eventually we don't know what to expect in Android 12. There will be some news. We hope some changes. But what's really coming up? It's up to see, especially because those of us who are using Samsung's will get Samsung's TalkBack, which should be the same as the Google Ones as they say now, but well. Let's leave it to the, you know, surprise moment.
StSolutions (Mario) So after the Samsung, Pawel you have some interesting news because you discovered some interesting company. Which develops online accessible software solutions for for blinds. Yes. The company is called ST solutions, right?
(Pawel) Yes. A solution from Cameroon. It's all software made by a guy called Yannick Daniel Youalé. And he made a couple of really nice tools. There are some games. There are some tools, actually, if you open this website, Stsolution.org, you will see that they are divided into several categories. There is a gaming platform, so if you remember like the QuentinC Playroom or RS games,
(Mario) Yes.
(Paweł) This is more or less like this, except it's apparently a bit better visually, so if somebody sighted would like to play with you, it's… looks better and it even works with game controllers if you have one. The problem I found with this so far, however, is that there is only one game that you can apparently play in the multiplayer and even this, it's difficult to say how to start it, so, like, the documentation doesn't say anything on this, but there is plenty of other games that you can play alone. There is a mini chat feature where you can chat with other people. You can even send files, you can even make voice calls (this looks and works best in Chrome, From what I've tested) and actually works, you can actually call people and it works. There are other things, too, not just games. There is a couple of development tools. There is an accessible code editor, there is a script, and this is very interesting because there is this addon, for Firefox it's called Greasemonkey and for Chrome it's called Tampermonkey, and both let you do the same thing. They let you load custom scripts that you can use to modify the behaviour and the look… looks of a particular website (also to make it more accessible in some cases), and he made some scripts…
(Mario) This is how this guy made this, uh, web WhatsApp addon, if you remember.
(Paweł) Yes, there was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember that. There was the… I think there were some scripts for Github back in the day…
(Mario) Yeah
(Paweł) that James Teh made, the NVDA creator. And I think there is even now some Tampermonkey script out for Netflix to read subtitles. So these scripts are quite popular if you look around for them, even for accessibility; and he made two. One of them is the Web Accessibilizer and it lets you customise a lot of the aspects of the websites you visit, so you can, for example, assign custom shortcuts, keyboard shortcuts to different elements, or you can design certain elements to be automatically announced when they update, or you can assign some roles and classes to elements that don't have them, so if there is some place that should be heading and it's not, you can make it a heading and you can manipulate each website quite freely if you know how to; and you can then, of course, exchange these configurations for different websites with other people. There is like a central place where you can upload it and other people can download it; so there is this you can do, and the second script he made, it's an improved player experience for your multimedia playback in the browser, so if you go to some website and there is some multimedia playing, some video or audio and it's not accessible, the player: you cannot control it, you cannot start or stop it, and the script is supposed to make it accessible so basically, if it detects any multimedia, it will tell you “One or two multimedia items detected” and then you can go into the application mode or forms mode and you can use certain shortcuts to manipulate it so you can play and pause, you can rewind and go back and this by a couple of amounts of time, so from one second to, I don't know, a minute or something; you can make it play faster or slower, you can check how much time is gone and how much remains. If it's YouTube, you can even skip the ads with the escape key, which didn't work for me, but I guess this is because I have my system in Polish and the YouTube is also in Polish, so maybe some things don't really match, but I tried it on YouTube as such and it let me definitely control the playback and I tried it on Bandcamp, which is this website for independent musicians and bands…
(Mario) Yes
(Paweł) to promote their music. And if you know Bandcamp, you know that the player on the website is not very accessible. I mean, there is this “play/pause” button, but if you press it by default, nothing happens.
(Mario) Mhm, Yeah.
(Paweł) And sometimes, even if you use the object navigation, nothing happens, so it's quite difficult for me at least to play stuff on Bandcamp, and with this addon, it didn't work every time, but once it's somehow started running, I could definitely manage this, I could go back and forward in the in the music track and I could manipulate the volume and these were like the things that I wouldn't be able to do otherwise, and I also heard from some users in Poland who tried it with our VOD services and apparently it worked too so… And they are very inaccessible, I must say, so you can try out if this works on your favourite website of choice. There are some more tools as well, there is a even a DJ software, so you can sort of mix two tracks together and play some jingles, so if you, for example, would like to host a radio show and you would like to use some sound effects and mix two tracks together and make it come over from one track to the next quite smoothly, you can do it. There is like a two playlists, you can load tracks onto them and you can use these volume sliders to manipulate which one goes how, at which volume, and you can also go faster and slower, you can slow it down or speed it up.
(Mario) But they also have some, not only DJ stuff, but they also have some radio software as well.
(Paweł) Yes.
(Mario) for broadcasting, I saw it.
(Paweł) It's a radio player, I think that's what I saw at least, and this works on the basis of some database that they themselves made, so it's possible that you will not find your favourite radio there.
(Mario) Ach.
(Paweł) But I think it even accepts links, if I'm not mistaken, but it's not, it's still a nice piece of work for those who can access these radio stations, but there is a podcast player as well, and this actually works with a bigger catalogue, so I think you will be able to find EBU Access Cast, for example, there.
(Mario) Mhm, so, yeah, you can check it out.
(Paweł) Yes, there is also a music player, if you want to play some music, there is even something for databases, something like Microsoft Access, but in the browser, and this is the only piece of software there that is paid, because all of this stuff is free.
(Mario) Mhm.
(Paweł) What I mentioned before and this is actually the one thing that is paid. There is some global thing for searching different resources, for searching, I don’t know, Wikipedia, Google, YouTube and so on. There is a music player. There is a Podcatcher. There is also something for designing UI and for designing websites that should look nice also visually, not just be accessible, which is quite important because if you are blind and you want to design something, you have very limited, close to no control over how the result will look like visually, and it often happens that when blind people make software or web pages, they they are accessible, that's true, but they don't look very appealing visually to people who don't need screen readers, so there are also some scripts and programmes there to design nicely looking, of course, they will be looking like out of a template, you will not create probably some artistic masterpiece, but at least it will look proper and cleaned up and, let's say, ready for people to see; so you can take a look at this website because there are plenty of really interesting tools there.
(Mario) Yeah, absolutely. I have to say I liked what I saw as well on their site, so was quite nice discovery.
AstroAccess We are almost done for today, but we have one more thing to announce, and it's also related to Mr. Pawel, because he discovered also something called Astro Access and I need… I have a feeling that has to do something with the people with disabilities flying wheelchair in the space [laughter] or flying canes.
(Paweł) Maybe in the future, but for the time being it’s just a test, It's a programme run in the United States, where twelve disabled crew members, scientists, artists, disability advocates, are supposed to undergo parabolic tests, which are the standard tests that all astronauts have to go through before they are let into space, onto actual missions, and this will be the first in the history test where people with different disabilities will, or actually it already took place, but for some reason we don't see any updates on the website. I hope they came back safe and sound, but they were just tests, so I think everything… I mean, is fine with them. In the worst case, there was a negative result; but the tests, which are supposed to check in… to which extent people with disabilities, different disabilities can actually undergo space missions on an actual spacecraft, and it's quite interesting what implications this may have, because it turns out that making accommodations for people with different disabilities will actually profit everyone because, for instance, in case of blind people, what can happen, of course, we don't wish it to happen, but you never know, on an actual space mission is that there is an emergency and the first thing that goes out are the lights on an aircraft like this; and then if they manage to develop a sufficient audio overlay to receive, like, feedback from all the machinery and the tactile markings to navigate through the cabins and to the, for example, oxygen masks and so on. If this works for the blind in general, this will work for everyone in case the lights go out, so this is quite important to test to see to what extent these systems don't just rely on one sense principle and actually let you enjoy this in multiple senses, and they will be testing with, of course, multiple disabilities. There will be Martian Martian gravity tests, lunar gravity tests, zero gravity tests, all these standard things that have to happen before somebody actually is allowed on a mission, and if everything goes well, actually the goal is to send one or a couple of these twelve people that are in the initial test onto an actual space mission, so it would be probably the first time in history that, like, a varied group of people with disabilities go into space and I think this is quite quite a revolution. I just looked at the list of the ambassadors here, there is the first name that just comes up on the list is Sina Bahram, if you follow the accessibility scene…
(Mario) Yes. Yes.
(Paweł) You definitely know the name, he is in the W3C consortium, so one of the people who founded the WCAG, the WCAG guidelines;
(Mario) Mhm.
(Paweł) There is also, Mona Minkara, she is a blind chemistry assistant professor in the states, so, like, actually a blind person who made it so high in chemistry, which is, you would think, a very difficult subject for blind people to study, but yet she is working in some kind of academic group, a scientific group, and she developed even a curriculum for blind people that is fully accessible for studying sciences, so I'm pretty sure this is somebody who will be of great use on, like, in space conditions then there is also Azubuike Onwuta, also called Zuby, another blind scientist. And yeah, plenty of other people with different disabilities. So you can tell that they have actually researched their list and there are different people actually testing whether it's possible for us to go to space in the future, so this is quite interesting. I'm quite curious about what what happens next and what the results will be.
(Mario) Interesting, I wish them good luck, but I'm staying on the Earth.
[laughter]
(Hlynur) I'm just waiting for their call.
(Mario) Yeah, they can give us a call on this new Windows WhatsApp for… [laughter]
(Paweł) Actually, would be interesting to see, like, TWBlue tweets from the space, for example.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Paweł) Yeah.
(Mario) Why not?
(Paweł) Yeah, it's it's interesting to see, I mean, how many things are still possible, but we didn't know about this because nobody thought that it's possible for blind people to do.
(Mario) Sure.
(Paweł) Without being, like, overly optimistic because, of course, for example, I can’t drive a car right now, which does not mean I will not be able to get in an independently driving car in some years.
(Mario) But you can already record a video from your bus.
(Paweł) Yeah, yeah, this I can do, of course. And and…
[laughter]
And I mean, yeah, it's something that you often don't think about, but then it turns out that it's there is so much that we actually can do, but sometimes people don't think we can. And, uhh…
(Tanja) But in the history, disabilities were always the driver for innovation. So as you were saying, they will think about other ways, how to communicate the same information. And I would like to see this on standard aircrafts because…
(Mario) Sure.
(Tanja) The instruction that you have is “The light will lead you to the nearest exit”.
(Paweł) Yeah.
(Mario) Ohh, yeah, yeah.
(Tanja) Eventually, eventually, a steward explains you where is the nearest exit, but…
(Hlynur) And how long has it been, like, the same way? How many years?
(Mario) Too long.
(Paweł) Hmm, yeah, of course, in the situation of panic, you will not probably remember where that even is,
(Tanja) Yeah.
(Paweł) So, because probably you will at some point, hopefully not, but if you ever come to this situation, it will be the first time in your life, so we will not be very trained on this.
(Mario) And probably the last. [laughter]
(Paweł) Some people make it through.
(Mario) Haha, Ok, OK.
(Paweł) I mean, yeah. Hail to the captain, but indeed, I think, yeah, it could be explained in a more, like, signified in a clearer way, some kind of tactile things. It's yeah, there is so much, and if we think of all this legislation coming to Europe now, like it's only there now, it's good that it's there, but still like there is so much that is unexplored and so much where you where you even have to ask yourself, Can I do this or is it possible for me to do this? And once you even discover that you can, you have to convince the whole society that it's so.
(Mario) True.
(Paweł) You have to go against all these people who are like, Come on, stop experimenting, you just can't do it. Come on, just give it up. Because logically thinking it's not possible. And this is very sad because you don't only have to battle your own demons, but also the society at large, and it's like a double demotivating factor, so it's it's a struggle to get sometimes, but I am really happy to see that things like Astro Access are there and here is to the future.
(Hlynur) I just can't wait to send you guys a postcard from Mars in a few years.
(Paweł) Hmm.
(Mario) Yeeeeeah. And you need to put some artificially made potatoes from Mars as well.
[Hlynur] Hahaha, Yeah, after I colonised it.
(Mario) Yeah. Pawel, thanks a lot for the scientific report, yes, about space exploration, but it's time for us to land on the Earth, make the surprise announcement.
Good bye message Basically, EBU Access Cast has come to the end of the first season, and what do I mean? Well, I mean that it's time for all of us to to take a break and that that break will be a bit longer one because over the last three years and seven months, we've been with you every month despite the whole thing that happened to us, COVID and all the things that are happening to each of us, however, it's time to move on to some other projects and take a rest for a while; so the thing is that yes, all of us, almost all of us, from the, from this crew, from the EBU Access Cast are leaving the ship. Myself, I enjoyed being the coordinator of the podcast since the beginning and I really liked what we did, but I feel that it's time for me really to move on, and yeah, the rest of you guys, I think you are leaving as well. You're you're… All of us are being preoccupied with our daily jobs as well. We've been talking to EBU about the future of the EBU Access Cast and basically the plan is that there is no plan for the moment. EBU has something in the pipeline to continue with some way of the podcast, whether it will be the EBU Access Cast in the future, that's that's for the crystal ball to show in the future, whether it will exist or not. We for the moment don't have any information about it, so I'd like to say thanks to all of you for listening to us for the last, uh, three and a half years. It was really fun to be with you and work with you, but as Freddie Mercury says, “Show must go oooon!”, yes,
(Hlynur) Indeed.
(Mario) Yeah, so what do you have to say, guys?
(Tanja) Well, the life goes on and there will be, you know, some other people, other content, but for us, it's time again to move on.
(Mario) Yes.
(Paweł) Yeah, thanks for the chance, first of all, because it was a bit of a surprise for me to come into this project by sort of a lucky coincidence, I made it here and I quite enjoyed being here. We'll see what the future brings and I'm looking forward to the adventure on, so we'll see what what comes up in the in the future; and you also stay hopeful for for the best because, well, it's a goodbye, but it sounds like a goodbye for now. The times change and things change and it's hard to say, whether for better or for worse, it will be probably different. Whatever will be will be different, which does not mean worse, so let's keep the fingers crossed that things will turn out for the best.
(Hlynur) Agreed.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Hlynur) For my part, I would just like to thank everyone for the opportunity and thank you, guys. It has been a pleasant journey for over the past fourteen months or so for me. So for me, just thank you.
(Mario) True. We we enjoyed having you in a team, man, it was… it was nice.
(Paweł) Yes.
(Mario) All right, guys. So unfortunately, we cannot tell you “see you in the next podcast”, because the system is shutting down for the moment, and I'll be following up what's happening. I mean, you can search for us on the social media, if you want to follow us individually, we'll still be around, but probably in some other projects. And who knows where you might see us again?
(Paweł) Yeah, true that.
(Hlynur) All right.
(Mario) So I am wishing you all the best in 2022. Have very nice Christmas and Happy New Year and yeah, stay safe, all of you, and we'll see each other somewhere again. Ciaaaaao! Ciaaaao! Ciao! Ciao!
(Paweł) Byyyyye!
(Hlynur) bye bye.
(Tanja) Bye bye.
Welcome back in the 34th episode of the EBU Access Cast where, as always, we provide you with the news around assistive technology and accessibility. This episode, hosted by Paweł and co-hosted by Tanja, Mario and Hlynur contains big amounts of news from the Big companies out there, impressions of technology we have ourselves tested and a nice demo at the end so tune in and enjoy!
You can always review the transcript of the podcast if that form suits you better.
For any lovers of movies and TV Series, Paweł has tested Teleparty, a browser extension that allows a group of friends to watch a movie together with everyone keeping their individual audio and subtitle settings intact.
We then head of to find out what Microsoft has in store. The announcement of the Surface Adaptive Kit has made rounds all over the Internet. We discuss possible use cases for the blind helped by Tanja who has recently tested one of the Surface laptops.
Of course we did not forget that Windows 11 has recently been released. WE start off the discussion on that particular topic by diving into running Android apps on Windows 11 and how accessible and usable that is going to be. Those of us who have had a chance to run windows 11 share their first impressions.
But Microsoft doesn’t just stop there. They also organize a handful of webinars addressing all that changed in Windows 11 in regards to accessibility. Speaking of events, this year’s editions of the NVDACon and Sighttech Global are taking place soon.
On a more negative note, Apple has recently made itself a bit of a bad name with the blind community. Firstly, the developer of the Flicktype keyboard has had problems publishing into the App Store then he discovered his app was turned into an Apple Watch feature. Next, a blind developer has had issues updating one of his games. Finally, a rain of headlines fell upon the Internet as many blind users discovered that Siri features such as checking the call log or sending E-mails were gone. These examples show how lack of awareness on accessibility issues appearing in some departments of even the biggest companies, coupled with the politics behind technology can severely affect our access to solutions we use every day.
On the Google front, a new version of the Android Accessibility Suite was released with a surprisingly huge jump in the version numbering. Are the changes significant enough to justify such a change?
We also congratulate the users in Slovenia and Belgium, as Slovenian and Belgian French join the family of Vocalizer voices on Android.
Further down the Google line, Youtube is rolling out a slew of new features that should make audio more accessible. Can you hear that audiodescription coming? Come and find out!
We also had a last-minute, surprising news from Mastercard who have announced their brand-new accessible card design.
We also discussed the appearance of Susan Bennett, the voice actress behind the original Siri voice, in the latest campaign by UserWay. Can the gap in accessibility be bridged by a single line of code and how does the marketing in the accessibility space look like today?
To top the whole show off, Hlynur introduces us to Isak, an Icelandic developer behind Retinaid, a way to revolutionize playing tabletop games by blind people. Feel free to contact Isak to find out how you can get involved in testing and check out the list of currently supported games (PDF).
You can get in touch with us by sending an e-mail to ebuaccesscast@euroblind.org or reaching out to us on Twitter at @EbuAccessCast Until the next time!
Transcription of the EBU Access Cast episode 34 [Jingle]
This programme is financially supported by the fundings from the European Commission.
You are listening to the EBU Access Cast. The official podcast from the European Blind Union about assistive technology for blind and partially sighted people. And here is our host.
[Paweł] Welcome, everyone, this is the 34th episode of the EBU Access Cast, the podcast of the European Blind Union on the latest and greatest in assistive technology for blind and partially sighted people. This is Pavel hosting this episode. Hey, hey. Hello, everyone. I'm not alone here. As always, we have our usual suspects. Tanja Tanja from Luxembourg Tanja Kleut, hello?
[Tanja] Hello, Pawel.
[Paweł] Hello, Hello and Mario Percinić, also from Luxembourg. Hello, Mario.
[Mario] Hey there. How's it going?
[Paweł] Great. Thanks. It's a holiday as we record, so who can complain about the holiday, right?
[Mario] No.
[Paweł] Yeah, no, (laughter) not at all.
And Hlynur Agnarsson from Iceland, hello.
[Hlynur] Hi there, nice to be here.
[Paweł] Yep and so am I. So what do we have for you today? Actually a lot. Again, a lot from these big companies that we mention all the time. There is always something from Microsoft, Apple and Google. I think it's a it's already a fixed point on our agenda, sort of, but not always. But this time we start with Microsoft and there is plenty to talk about, of course, because of Windows 11. What Microsoft surprised us with, I guess, is this Adaptive Kit for the Surface, the Surface Adaptive Kit. We'll tell you what that is about and how this can help blind people using their products. We'll also discuss the currently beta-tested feature of running Android apps on Windows 11. How useful is that, really? And some of us have actually tested the system, so we'll also talk about this. Is Windows 11 accessible? Well, let's find out. This is not just the software and hardware that Microsoft is surprising us with. They are also hosting their webinars on the accessibility of Windows 11. Hopefully, you can catch that too. Then on to other events. NVDACon is expected to launch in the first weekend of December and Also Sight Tech Global TechCrunch's conference and event on advances in artificial intelligence for the blind, for the benefit of the blind, this will also be covered by us right now. Then moving on to what Apple is up to, and of course, we could tell you all about updates that they released and new Mac OS versions and some new hardware, but I think it's more interesting to talk about in which ways they have recently made themselves not so much of a good fame with blind people and there are a couple of reasons for that. Then we'll jump onto what Google has in store for us. On one hand, there is a new Talkback update that we again had no official changelog from, but nevertheless we know now what's changed. And also YouTube. Google told us that they are introducing some new audio features for accessibility. Could we finally see audiodescription coming? Do I hear alternative audio tracks? Not yet, but they will arrive eventually. And then also with Vispero is out with a brand new JAWS update, JAWS 2022 and also other of their products the fusion, for example. And to top it all off, MasterCard is coming out with a brand new card design that is supposed to help blind people identify the cards. Also as the last but not least, we'll talk about the latest campaign from UserWay, where the actress behind the Siri voice is campaigning for more accessibility by using an accessibility overlay, sadly. All of that in the newest EBUAccessCast. At the end, we'll also hear from Hlynur and his friends in Iceland who have an interesting solution to tabletop gaming. I haven't played a tabletop game in a while. I'm really curious about this.
Gadget of the show – Teleparty – watch Netflix together with others And yeah, that's it for today on our schedule. But of course, we wouldn't be a proper EBUAccessCast if we didn't present you with some gadgets. Anyone gadgets this time?
[Mario] Well, I think it's you, would you.
[Paweł] Again? Noooooo!
[Mario] Inspector Ga… Ach, come on, you have to prove your Inspector Gadget,
[Paweł] OK,
[Mario] status.
[Paweł] I have to prove my Inspector Gadget status.
[Mario] Yah.
[Hlynur] You have to renew your certificate.
(laughter)
[Paweł] Every six weeks? Come on!
Good it's for free. And I'm also coming with something for free because I didn't buy anything, unfortunately, but I tested some things and I found an interesting browser extension, for Chromium-based browsers for now, called Teleparty. If you go to teleparty.com, you can check it out. This extension allows you to host a Netflix watching party with amount of people of your choice, and you do this by installing the the extension and hosting a party. By hosting a party, I mean, you generate a link, you sent this link across to all the people who should watch with you and all these people click on the link. Of course, all of you need to have your own Netflix account. This is not any kind of trick to get Netflix for free or any kind of other streaming service, but you log into your Netflix or I think there is also Hulu, but Hulu is not much of a thing in Europe.
[Mario] No.
[Paweł] and there you will watch whatever the person chose, the host chose to watch, in synchronised mode, so the host has generally the control over everything, if they start, you start, if they pause, you pause. They can also decide if you can pause or you can rewind, fast forward and manage the video in general, but this is a decision of the host. And the best news about it is, and I tested this actually, you can each of you pick your own audio and subtitling settings. So what happened to me was we were watching some movie with my mom (I'm in Austria, she's in Poland, so it's a bit more difficult to watch things together now), and we managed to get to the point where she was watching the movie in polish, with, yeah, dub, with dubbing; and I was watching it here in English with audiodescription; and this was such an amazing feeling because, well, usually even if you watch at home with somebody, you have to somehow agree on a compromise. Do Everyone… Does everyone have to listen to audio description, even though it's sometimes annoying to them, or do you somehow sacrifice the description and you maybe ask the sighted people that you watch with to describe something to you if you don't understand what's going on, for example, or how do you manage this? And Apple is coming out with th e Shareplay, which allows you to watch things also via Facetime, and also, everyone is supposed to be able to pick up their own settings, and Netflix as of yet is not on board. But, well, there is a solution there for Netflix and for non-Apple users. So I think it's the best of two worlds, and I hope I somehow made your Netflix bingeing sessions with friends better, more accessible. Sadly, some news are appearing that Netflix is trying to prevent this kind of extensions working. They're officially saying they're trying to somehow prevent external scripts messing with the video and some other illegal tricks, but it might happen that this kind of extensions will stop working at some point. Hopefully, fixes will be provided or workarounds will be found, or hopefully, Netflix finally introduces this natively, because, I mean, this is, especially in times of COVID, such a important feature to have that you can watch this together with people you cannot meet normally, so. Yeah, crossing my fingers that Netflix will realise how important this is. In the meantime, enjoy your Teleparty and that is my gadget for today.
[Mario] Yeah, instead of watching the movie with your mum, I would suggest to host Tinder Watching Party, you know, Pawel?
(laughter)
[Paweł] What is it with you teasing me about Tinder?
[Mario] Yeah, yeah, yeah, man.
[Paweł] I don't know. I don't know why, but OK, I guess I have to live with that. Maybe, maybe in some future podcast anywhere, somewhere, we'll discuss dating problems of blind people.
[Mario] That's a good topic for Christmas.
[Paweł] Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Accessibility in the news Surface Adaptive Kit So starting with Windows, Microsoft has introduced, and I don't think anybody expected this, but it's good that it's there, and also at the beginning, I felt like “how would I use this?”, The Surface Adaptive Kit, which is a set of tools, of items you can apply on different parts of your Surface hardware that help you in identifying different parts of the computer, tablet, call it as you wish, I think it's both in one in some cases, to identify the keys on the keyboard, to identify the different ports and cables, also to help you lift some of the lids on it, on the device; and I read about it, and I think it's quite interesting. I don't remember how the surface looks like, but I guess it's a bit smaller than usual laptops and maybe because of this it's a bit harder to identify some items. I think Tanja you read more into this.
[Tanja] Yes, and actually I received in the last days a computer for testing and it is a Surface, so I confirm it is a smaller and since it is not my first computer, it is more difficult for me to be efficient and to find quickly where are the right F keys or which key to use in combination with the FN if you would like to, I don't know, increase, decrease the volume, so of course, we can get used to that, but if it is not your primary machine, something like this would be helpful to enhance the accessibility of the hardware, but at the same time, I was thinking, OK, since they are thinking about accessibility, why they wouldn't put this by default and not having hardware that doesn't have a space, a small space between the F keys like four blocks, but you have to put a tactile symbol on it or tactile tool, whatever.
[Paweł] Mm hmm.
[Tanja] So it's good that it's there, but also why we should adapt, why it's not by default accessible?
[Paweł] Do you think they can still do it even though the size is so small? Like, is it technically viable to still?
[Tanja] I think so. Well, you know that on the F and J we have this small, tactile thing. Think, so I think it will be possible in one way or the another, of course, in a small space you cannot have a standard PC keyboard, but I think they could do a bit more accessible, if you are blind and relying only on the touch.
[Paweł] Mmhm. Yeah, yeah, you're right. The good thing they do about it is that they provide really clear and concise instructions on how to apply everything and where you where you find each item in the box. So I think it's very well explained and I don't find myself very handy with so handy works, but I guess I could be able to follow those instructions. I'm quite curious now, but uh. Well, yeah, good for Microsoft that they thought about this because we'll be getting back to this in… when we discuss MasterCard, but I think when we think of accessibility, it's quite a lot on the software side. We talk about digital accessibility a lot and we see a lot of success in software side, so when somebody made an app more accessible or a website or yeah, made some solution more accessible on the software, but not so much on in the hardware spectrum and this is also quite important that proper labelling of buttons also on elevators, for example, and and clear labelling of keys like this is something that often goes in the missing. And I don't think it should be because it's as important as making your software experience accessible. So it's good that Microsoft thought about this.
[Hlynur] Yeah, I agree with Tanja that it's… might be disappointing that it's not like standard yet, but might also be a small step in the right direction.
Paweł) Mm hmm.
[Mario] Yeah, sure, sure, sure. The thing is that basically what we are seeing here is the fact that the Surfaces didn't come out yesterday. They are around for a while, so the fact that Microsoft came out with this toolkit is, you know, the situation where you have something already out and you need to somehow adapt to the people with disabilities. But yeah, I would agree that, for example, if they come up and they probably will come out with some newer services, that these kind of things should be included on the fly already.
[Paweł] Yeah, this is interesting because I think this adaptive kit came out in the same conference that the new surface hardware so it's interesting, like what kind of choices were made in the design of this, if clearly the effort was there but the execution not so much. And it's bolting on accessibility on an already existing product. Well, let's hope that the choices will be better next time around next year. We'll see.
[Mario] Mm hmm.
Running Android apps on Windows 11 [Paweł] but that's not the only accessibility news from Microsoft, as I said before already. We also find out now, and it was already teased in a way when the first betas of Windows 11 were coming out, that the current beta testers have access to Android apps running on Windows 11, and I read a little bit about this. There is some good news. There is some less good news, let's say. So let's start with the good news. The good news is that there is a screen reader in this experience. Once you enter an Android app run this way you can press ctrl+win+T and Screen reader will come up and you can navigate these apps.
[Mario]I wonder how you can press ctrl+Win+T with one hand if you have only one ctrl key. For example, I have one ctrl key on my computer
[Paweł] On the right side?
[Mario] No, on the left.
[Paweł] On the left?
[Tanja] I… ctrl+Win+T, I think I can do it with one hand.
[Paweł] Yeah, I can.
[Tanja] I'm just trying.
[Paweł] I’m using…
[Hlynur] I’m a pianist So it's no problem for me
]Paweł] And I'm using these Twitter clients and like invisible interfaces for a while, so shortcuts like ctrl+win+shift+alt+N, no problem. (laughter) But…
[Mario] Yeah, well, OK.
[Paweł] Yeah.
[Tanja] But it would be logical to have the same shortcut as in Windows. Why not? You know,
[Paweł] I don't know. Might might T, might T be hinting at TalkBack somehow?
Maybe.
[Mario] Maybe, yes.
[Tanja] Yes, but…
[Paweł] Maybe. Yeah…
[Mario] Whatever.
[Paweł] Maybe it was somehow a little difficult with the infrastructure because this Android experience is a virtual machine, in fact, of Android running inside windows.
[Mario] Mm hmm.
[Paweł] It's an optimised virtual machine, but nevertheless, if you want to have this running, you need to turn on virtualisation in your Windows settings, so it's not very native windows experience, but yeah, it's apparently very well optimised. It runs quite smoothly. I have to be basing my opinion now on the post on the Audiogames forums because I'm currently not able to test this, but somebody did, and they said it's very snappy. It's the fastest experience they have seen of the sort. And here comes the less good news or a couple, because first of all, for the time being, if you want this to run, at least officially, if you want to download the Android experience from the Microsoft Play Store, from the Microsoft App Store equivalent, Microsoft Store, you need to actually have set your locale to the US so you can't use your whatever locale of choice, you need to be on the US And also you need a US Amazon account because Microsoft has partnered with Amazon and you can only install officially at least the Amazon store, and you can download the apps from there, which are not very many, from what I heard, I saw somewhere the number being 50, I didn't expect it being so little, but well, that's what we have.
[Mario] I don’t understand, I don't understand why they didn't go with the with the Google, but…
[Paweł] Politics, I guess.
[Mario] Well…
[Paweł] At some point, some paths didn't meet and well, there you go. Um, yeah, yeah, I also think it's quite detrimental because an average user will not make much use out of this.
[Mario] No.
[Paweł] Uuumm, a user who knows their stuff, they will probably find out how to sideload apps. There is even a way around I already found out somewhere, to install Google Play services on this because even if you don't have the Google Play Store, but you will want to install, like, everyday apps that you use, you might run into problems with running them because they will rely on Google Services and if you don't have Google Services, you can't really run these apps, unless you find some unofficial version where this requirement is lifted, but yeah, for everyday use, this is very, very tricky and very difficult to use. Hopefully, Microsoft will somehow come to terms with Google. At some points they will realise this is not very useful for a lot of people, maybe for developers (somebody mentioned developers and video gamers on the forum where I browsed), so maybe these target groups, yes, but other than this, if I, for example, would like to order my Uber from the PC because I'm at the PC and it's just more comfortable for me at the moment, this will probably not happen. Sad, but true, but yes, they thought of accessibility and it's the thought that counts also in this scenario that the screen reader is there, according to this user who tested this, it's a modification of TalkBack and the problem is that, for example, the default keyboard shortcuts for things like global context menus and things, they are not configured so you have to configure some of the keyboard shortcuts yourself, which you can do, strangely enough, but if you want to do it, you have to go into your PowerShell and execute some commands with the PowerShell so that the settings open because natively you don't have access to the Android settings and as a consequence, you don't have access to TalkBack settings either, so you even have to go to some very great lengths to customise what the Screen reader does. I know it's a beta and maybe this will improve with the beta as it progresses, but for the time being, this is a huge drawback. Also, with the speech synthesisers for the time being, you have to use the Microsoft voices. You can…
[Mario] So basically they made Microsoft Voices available for Android.
[Paweł] I think it's a kind of bridge that is not compatible so you won't be able to extract APK files of voices if you wanted to. It's some kind of bridge to interface with windows. That's how I think it works.
[Mario] Because actually, I would really like to see Microsoft's, all of the Microsoft Mobile Voices imported to the Android. But yeah.
[Paweł] Mm hmm. Would be great, yes, especially because they have such a bright, such a broad language selection.
[Mario] Yeah, yeah, and the most of the voices are very small, which would be which would make make them very useful on the mobile devices.
[Paweł] Yeah, they could work on the pronunciation a little bit.
[Hlynur] Yeah, the voices are actually… Yeah, I also feel like the Microsoft voices are quite good.
[Mario] Yeah, Yeah.
[Paweł] Yeah, yeah. Well, umm, yeah, apparently you can install third-party voices also on this Android emulator, but uh, no, you cannot change them in the TalkBack because you can't access the TTS settings. You can somehow play the samples, but you cannot change the default voice, maybe somehow… I think that didn't come across in the beta and it will be fixed afterwards, but for the time being, that's how it looks like, sadly, so I thought personally, this would be more exciting, But as I see it, this is not something I see myself using on a daily basis, unless they partner with Google.
[Mario] me neither, me neither.
[Paweł] But…
[Mario] The more, the more I listen to you explaining what you need to do, it's really, you know, heavy, geekery stuff. (laughter) so…
[Paweł] Yeah, if you actually want to make it usable, yes, it is.
[Mario] Yeah,
[Paweł] Mmhm.
[Hlynur] The idea is good.
[Paweł] Yes, in itself, yes, but the delivery could be a bit more polished and tailored to an everyday user.
Windows 11 impressions Well, but you, actually some of you tested Windows 11. How is that like? Aside from Android apps, but in general, any big changes for better, for worse, who of you tested it, actually?
[Tanja] I’m not, I'm not sure if there are big changes for us from the screen reader perspective, but there is a difference. For example, for the start menu, it's just different. It's not all less or more accessible, and also the system tray is different. You can personalise it and decide which icons you would like to have in the taskbar so you can do this through the Windows settings. Then also, the accessibility is now replacing ease of access. Maybe this is something more important in general for accessibility, and what they're highlighting often is that the contrast now is much better, and it would be interesting to know, Hlynur, did you manage to test? Is the contrast really better?
[Hlynur] I haven't managed to test it myself on my computer, even though we haven't had any problems, there's one computer here at the office that we have upgraded to the Windows 11 and yeah, they I think they've moved away from the term ease of access over to more like accessibility settings.
[Mario] Yeah, and right now the accessibility settings are straightforward visible from the settings, which is, which is good.
[Hlynur] So the accessibility of the accessibility settings is more accessible. (Laughter)
[Tanja] Yes.
[Hlynur] And no issues with anything. No issues with NVDA or no such thing. So everything looks like works like it's supposed to do. Even the good old Ivona Reader is still working with the Windows 11. Yeah, I think, no contrast changes to the worse, at least.
[Mario and Tanja] Mm hmm.
[Tanja] Ok, because this was something that they were highlighting that now is much better. And of course, I cannot know this if it is better or no. But regarding Narrator, I was expecting that there will be an update in Windows 11, but if you look on the website of Microsoft, “What is new?” The last update on the article was in 2020, so in my understanding, I am not a frequent user of Narrator and I was going through the options, apparently, there is nothing new. It's just working with the operating system. And then I wonder if Narrator will be updated with the system updates, or it can be updated more frequently because if we have to wait for system updates, we will wait for some time.
[Mario] That’s’… I’m… I'm highly doubting that there will be separate updates for Narrator because so far we saw that it arrives with the system updates, so I don't think that in that context, something will change, unfortunately.
[Tanja] This means no frequent updates for Narrator, which is not good for us.
[Mario] Yeah, yeah, that's that's how it is for now. Maybe we will see some more info about it from this upcoming webinar, which will be soon from Microsoft…
[Tanja] That we’ll me… That we will mention later.
[Mario] Yeah, That we will mention later, but I've heard that there were some changes in the Narrator, so they did change something since the last version, but I don't think that those changes are so frequent that they address them.
[Tanja] Ok, but then if they change why you don't have anything official on their page?
[Mario] I get it, I get it, but you know, we should ask Microsoft (laughter)
[Tanja] Yeah.
[Mario] why they didn't do that. I can say that I also tested the system for the last, let's say, one week. And from my point of view, I can say that the things are not where they used to be. So you need to remember the new positions of the stuff where it is and it does take some, some time to to find out where, where something is located; and I found out that all of the dialogues where you need to change some stuff in the settings especially have changed a lot, a lot since the Windows 10. So for instance, if you are, if you want to adjust your sound card settings and stuff like that, it's completely redesigned the interface. It's not that it's not accessible, but it's redesigned and you need to explore the stuff to to find out where something is; and once… Everything is being spoken by the by the Screen reader. So no, don't be afraid about it in terms of exploring what's what is there and what's not, but they they quite heavily restructured the OS. That's that's for sure.
[Tanja] Mmhm.
[Mario] But what I what I also like is the fact that we came to the point that Microsoft released a new version of OS and the s… the other third-party screen manufacturers were working with Microsoft together, so when the operating system was released, I would say that ninety five percent of the features were working with the new updates and like we came to the point where the operating system came out and we had it accessible, which is good to see because the previous versions of the operating systems, we always had to wait for a while for the manufacturers like, you know, the NV Access and the Vispero to update the Screen readers, and you had to tweak the operating system to, you know, have it adjusted for your personal likings and stuff like that. But now it's, uh, it's working ???.
[Tanja] Yeah, it's working. It's working. I have to say that I am a bit disappointed. I was hoping that we will have some of the neural voices offered.
[Mario] Yes, that was very that was something that was, uh, even highly expected. And there were some rumours saying that it will arrive. But no, so far we didn't see them. We might. I think that we might see them in the future updates. But so far we don't have them and that's…
[Paweł] I still I have a feeling they are more like optimised for longer texts, not for like every day screen reader use. But maybe they would be able to do some magic to make them actually work.
[Mario] They would, you know, make like a maybe mobile versions of those. It would be also good. But we'll see because the thing is that Microsoft, like last year, it was a few months ago when they came out with this specific survey, which was targeted directly to the people who are using speech technologies. And they there were like set of questions like, How do you like this voice? Blah blah blah? What would it be like to have it improved? So I don't think they put out this survey just for the fact that somebody has nothing to do. So
(Pawel) yeah, I hope so, too.
(Mario) Yeah, they will. I think that they do have something in the pipeline and that we might expect some changes.
(Tanja) Maybe people wanted only eloquence (Laughs).
(Pawel) I was actually curious about this. I guess a lot of blind people would express that they actually like the robotic voices more for, like productive work.
(Tanja) Mm.
(Pawel) And they are used to them. And I was really curious if Microsoft is going to address this somehow. If this came up highly in their results and if they're going to address this, this would be quite interesting.
[Mario] Yeah, that's that's another thing related to the speech technologies where since Microsoft has purchased nuance, it was like a few months ago. Nuance Is also the owner of the Vocalizer TTS. And there are some rumours also that you might see some new voices coming up and that Vocalizer voices will no longer be maintained, but it's highly rumoured for now.
(Pawel) I think they designated a special company that is has some different name now that is delegated to these voices of Vocalizer as we knew them.
(Mario) But they they They put out some new voices which are completely new. Yeah. So we will see what will come up from from those.
(Pawel) Yeah, there is a small update for Android, meanwhile, and there is a Slovenian voice and the Belgian French voice. So congratulations to those who might profit from that.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah.
(Pawel) Well what about the sounds?
(Tanja) Yes. Well, there there are different, completely revamped in order to make them less stressful, as they say. So they don't have really this high pitch sounds or there is no sound that has a, I don't know, low pitch and then very high pitch. But what I read is that the designer took inspiration from an approach called calm technology. So in the calm technology that the interaction is supposed to happen between the technology and the user in the more natural way in the periphery of the user, not in the centre of atention. And this was their approach. I mean, they're what they wanted to do. It is true that we have to get used to them. I think it is also getting used to the sound, because you hear a sound and you don't know what it means. You can group sounds and you can assign a different sound for an event, as it was the case before. What I'm very much disappointed, though, is that you cannot assign a separate sound for a different email account. You always have the same sound, and if you have different email accounts in your outlook, you cannot differentiate from to which account you receive an email. And this is that
(Hlynur) you can do This in the Outlook app.
(Tanja) I found all the option have the sound or not have the sound.
(Hlynur) This is weird.
(Mario) Yeah, you can just turn it, turn it on or off, but you cannot change even the sound.
(Tanja) I did. I actually didn't try that in office365. I was searching in office 2016 and you can only tick whether you want to have the sound there or not. And then, if yes, you can choose in the system sound settings of windows. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm wrong.
(Hlynur) Actually, I don't think you are. If I remember correctly, I don't think I remember seeing this in the in the desktop version. Be able to see some, but I remember I have done it in the Android app.
(Mario) No, that's a different story. Android allows you to change that.
(Tanja) Yes. iOS two.
(Mario) Yes.
(Hlynur) I think this is correct.
(Tanja) Mhm, And also what they did is they change the sound depending on the visual theme that you're using. So in the dark theme, the sounds will be more echoe??? or it will be similar, but a bit different so that you can still recognise them. But there will be different. I don't know if somebody prefers sounds from the dark theme or
(Mario singing fear of the dark)
(Tanja) Or whatever.
Yes.
(Pawel) It’s interesting when you think about this like that. The visual changes also affect the sound. I quite like the thought . It’s maybe a gadget again, but I sort of like it when they start thinking that people who rely on audio or the audific cues, they also like, you know, different styles, just like sighted people like different wallpapers and different visual aspects.
(Tanja) But then having these really calm sounds from windows, it make me think about NVDA sounds. For example, when you're going from browse mode to focus mode, it's really hurting your ears.
(Mario) So somebody is really deaf over there, man. It's it's so annoying. And I was writing to them so many times like, Hi guys, could you please change those sound themes because they're so old and disturbing? And when can we expect? Well, you know, it's not now on our priority list. Well, when it will be on your priority lists? Oh man.
(Tanja) Yes, but you remember at some point few years ago, they change the sound. Yes, for only one version.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(Tanja) And they bring back the old ugly sounds.
(Mario) Yes, yes. And if you're wearing headphones and working with headsets all day, those sounds are attacking your ears. So bad.
(Pawel) I don't know about you, but the start up sound of Windows 11 reminds me a lot of like Windows Millennium Times.
(Tanja) I don't remember. I think I didn't use Windows Millennium or
(Pawel)98 or more, like it's a bit of like a shorter musical tune, something like this. It's quite interesting.
(Mario)I definitely can't say that all of this sound scheme is very anaemic, uh, in the Windows 11, because man, I cannot distinguish. I mean, I'm a musician and I cannot distinguish between those sounds what what each sound represents. Like the windows, the classical Windows 10 sounds that we have for years now. You can distinguish what each sound does. But those those sounds at Windows 11. God dammit, everything. Sounds the same way. Okay.
(Tanja) Yes. Ok, but there is something else also, which is improved. It is voice typing. So practically you select the text area and you can you can dictate the text. Also, punctuation is included, which was not in Windows 10. Now it is in Windows 11 and you have to be connected to the internet. So if you are not connected, the dictation feature will not work. You should just press Windows H and start dictating, but you have to make sure to have the correct input language keyboard selected because I was doing tests and my default keyboard was or not not default. My selected keyboard was Croatian, and I was trying to pronounce clearly and properly and a garbage was coming out. So then I changed to English, OK, and it was perfect, and I discovered that I can also dictate in all other languages that I speak Croatian, French and Italian. So it was a nice, nice discovery for me.
(Pawel) I think they had this feature in Office a while ago. They just introduced it in Office 365 that you can dictate into documents.
(Tanja) that's possible, but this one works wherever in the browser, in Notepad. Yes, wherever you need it.
(Pawel) (Great, Curiously. Has anyone tested the chat feature? Apparently, if you press Win+,I think, C, some lite version of teams should come up and you should be able to chat with people, I don't know. Have you tested that?
(Tanja) I did not. Ok. No, I did not. I tested something else. It is the widget panel which is supposed to be a sort of new service, but the services are only from Microsoft. So there are no third party services there yet. And you have also a panel of widgets for your personal widgets like To-Do List Calendar, which may be interesting. But for me, the calendar did not work, so the computer was saying the events from this account cannot be shown. So I don't know which type of account I should have, but the calendar, I couldn't sync my calendar. Yeah,
(Pawel) OK.
(Tanja) So it is nice, but with some limitations. Maybe if in the future they allow third party new services, it would be even more interesting. So actually, I had a problem with Adobe Reader because apparently you need to adjust the compatibility settings in Adobe Reader in order to make it work and open in Windows 11. So in the Adobe Reader properties. You select the run as administrator option and run the compatibility mode, and also I selected Windows seven compatibility. So there are three features that you should take in order to make it work. But it is quite surprising because the version that they have is Adobe Acrobat Reader DC continues version two thousand twenty one point. I don't know something. Some numbers, so I don't have an old version. And still you have to take this compatibility settings in the programme to make it work. And initially, I thought that there is something wrong with my installation, but it was not. It was just about this.
(Mario) Actually, I started to have the problems with that since last few months. Still when I was on 10 and I thought that this is something that there is something wrong with my.Adobe, and unfortunately there wasn't. But after I upgraded to 11, the problem came back again. So yeah, you need to a little bit reconfigure your Adobe Reader to work.
(Pawel) Hmm.
Now that's good to know, thanks for the tip, Tanja, because, yeah, watch out for your software compatibility because massive OS upgrades tend to break this and it's good to check if you have a chance.
Accessibility-related events in the near future Microsoft is also putting a lot of care to explain how the new features work for people with accessibility needs, which they, for instance, facilitate by means of their webinars. And there are going to be there was already one and there is going to be the next webinar on accessibility Windows 11. Also you Tanja Read about this.
(Tanja) Yes, the one that was already given or it happened already was on accessibility features in Windows 11, a general one. If you missed it, they will upload the recording on the Microsoft Channel on YouTube, so you will be able to see it anyway. And the one that is upcoming on the 17 of November, it is about using Screen readers on Windows 11. Apparently, that will show Narrator and third party screen readers. They don't specify which, and I think it will be a nice one to see what they can present us.
(Pawel) Yeah, this is great to know that Microsoft is organising this. Check back quite often because they organise these webinars from time to time on different products they have. And it's it's interesting to find out how they themselves provide it and present it. I think they even have people with disabilities even presenting this. I could see Jeff Bishop being one of the presenters for the Screen reader webinar. And
(Mario) yeah,
(Pawel) I know he's like a respected accessibility expert, also works for Microsoft At the moment for a while now.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(Pawel) So you can count that this is done really well, but by competent people. But that's not the only event taking place these days in connection with accessibility and specifically with accessibility for blind and partially sighted people. Because with the beginning of December, the new NVDA Con is approaching and it's the first week… first weekend of December, and we still will not know until the 15th of November what the topics will be. The call is still open, so if you have your own suggestions for a topic, you can also propose them. But knowing from the experience from the last years, it will be probably a lot of where Nvda is going forward something about NVDA addons development, something about Addon translation. So in general, how the project is progressing and how different actors in the open source community of NVDA find themselves. But it will be also interesting to have a chance to get in conversation with the developers of NVDA and with the community at large
(Mario) Aha so I need to pop up. I need to show up there to say to developers to change those sounds. Goddamn sounds
(Hlynur) there's your chance.
(Pawel) sMaybe, maybe you can be their new sound designer.
[Mario] Aaaach, Yes. Ok.
(Pawel) Ok, cool. Yeah, that's always a possibility. I think it will be on Teamtalk. It's always onTeamtalk . Yeah, and you can join it. And also the 1st and 2nd of December belongs to the Sighttech Global, organised by TechCrunch. It's an annual now because I think the first edition was last year Conference on Assistive Technology by means of artificial intelligence. So how artificial intelligence is helping in advancing technology for blind people. Also, interesting line-up of speakers. I already saw the person responsible for seeing AI. There are also plenty of companies sponsoring that. There is Google, there is Microsoft, there is Ford even, Yahoo.
(Tanja) Yeah, there will be also speakers from these companies like Microsoft, Google and Apple. Facebook. Some accessibility consultancies like Deq also envision. I saw human were Goodmaps too, and also some research centres and universities. But the agenda is not ready yet.
(Mario) Yeah, it's not published yet,
(Tanja) And the list of speakers may be even updated, so it's not entire list yet.
(Pawel) Mm hmm. So that's for your events, so check your calendars and tune in if you have a chance
(Mario) If you didn't watch the presentations from the last one. They're still very accurate. I just I just checked a few in the last few days. And yeah, if you want to see what they were talking about, there are a bunch of interesting topics even from the last year. So it's a if you want to know a little bit more about what this conference is about, you can check out the older presentations, which are still, uh, yeah, being accurate.
(Pawel) Yeah.
How come Apple made some blind people angry? So jumping on further, we have Apple and Apple has recently made a lot of people angry for a couple of reasons.
(Mario) They started making bad apples.
(Pawel) Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Rotten apples. Yeah, yeah. So first of all, what happened was that the developer of Flicktype was treated in a fairly unjust way. And first he created the keyboard Flicktype. For those of you who didn't know is the next keyboard after Fleksy the original developer of Fleksy, saw what was happening to the company. He decided to leave it and create what he initially intended to create, so keyboard that is focused on typing accurately with and without looking at the screen. It was quite successful. It even managed to spring up a Apple Watch keyboard where you could type on an Apple Watch quite accurately, also in an accessible way. And it was one of the first, I guess, or one of the most popular keyboards for the Apple Watch. Then at some point, Apple started blocking the updates. At first, they said, Yeah, you need to have full access permission, which means that the keyboard can access the internet and everything, and it was rejected. Then the developer explained how this works that it needs is needed somehow for… for VoiceOver users for this accurate prediction, probably for some machine learning or for some resources. And then it was accepted. But then again, he wanted to release a maintenance bug fix release with some improvements for VoiceOver also, and it was rejected for the same reason 3 years after. And the developer said it's enough he's not going to develop this anymore if Apple is going to throw obstacles on his way all the time. And he shared a bit of a back story where he said that Apple apparently tried to buy the keyboard of him so that they could include it as their own, or they could just own it at a discounted price. And he didn't agree. And according to him to the developer, this is where all the trouble with rejecting updates started with ignoring his emails started. Where, yes, a lot of things started going wrong and he decided to give up on the keyboard. He still wanted to maintain the Apple Watch portion for a bit. And then Apple Watch came out the 7th edition, 7th series, and they introduced their own QuickPath so that their own typing thing on the Apple Watch, which according to the developer, was. Basically a rip off of his keyboard. And he still has. It turns out, a lawsuit going on with Apple, where he's trying to claim that they were trying to convince him to buy, to sell his keyboard to them. He didn't agree. So they started blocking his updates and coming up with ridiculous reasons not to accept these updates. Apple said they reviewed this latest claim that they revised again their their guidelines. And allowed this keyboards and even push the latest update through, and that they will continue to accept these updates and that he is free to submit them whenever he likes. The thing is probably still going on. It's yeah, it was quite controversial back when it first came out because it basically showed that if Apple wants to have something, they will basically show you that they will have it. If you don't agree, they will probably try to make your life difficult or eventually build something similar. And well, there is. There is nothing you can do unless you somehow registered for a patent. Well, your idea is now Apple's idea. It's… the process is called Sherlocking. Sherlock used to be an app for searching for different things on your Mac. And then what Apple did was they bought the app, and they introduced the feature called Spotlight that we all know that basically replaced Sherlock. So they bought the app, made it irrelevant and introduced their own native feature to the system instead. And since then, this tradition of Sherlocking is a term that people apply whenever a big company will buy your idea or, well, if you don't agree, they will just copy it, call it theirs, and will make in turn your idea irrelevant. The next thing what happened, because there are, of course, different comments under these articles, and some people agreed with the developer that, yes, big companies do that.
Others said that there is actually no proof that he was the first to come up with this kind of keyboard that it will be hard for him to defend that. Yeah, in general, you cannot prevent prevent innovation. But the second thing that happened and this is very interesting was that Oriol Gomez, he is a blind developer from Spain who produces a lot of accessible games,Audio games. He tried to also update his app and there was a maintenance update because something didn't work in iOS 15 and he decided to submit a fix so that people can use it furthermore. And Apple rejected his update because they said that Oriol’s app is too similar to many different apps that are already out there, and Oriol appealed. He tried to fight for his case. He asked the community for support. I even saw that his appleviz post made it to the Hacker News. Hacker News is this website where people can post different links mostly connected to tech or science or culture in some cases, and you can discuss these links on this portal. So he basically received a lot of attention from the external participants, also not just in the blindness community. And I don't know if it's a result of this or simply Apple decided to react, but they finally got back to him.
First, they said, OK, we'll let your app through, but it's still not compliant with our guidelines. And then they had a conversation, and it turns out that the problem was an icon, that he used some stock icon that was from some open source library and some many other apps used the same icon as he did. And therefore, they said it's very similar and this triggered some of their automated systems. Yeah, that thought that this up might be some kind of scam. This is very difficult for blind developers because Apple has quite stringent rules on how your app should look graphically, and it's difficult for blind people to create. An actual, nice looking and probably compliant with Apple's guidelines, graphical UX design. So this is also why we don't have actually very many blind developers and especially game developers, because in game you will need a lot of graphics if you want to to pass the App Store restrictions. And there were even cases. I think Liam erven tried to do it some years ago where he tried to release his aud… first audio game on the iOS, and he made an audio game, so it didn't make sense for him to put any graphics there, so the screen was completely black. And for that reason, Apple rejected his game. So he had to put some static image, so just so something would be showing. And yeah, it's bizarre. I mean, of course, I understand it for some reasons, but also it makes the life of blind developers very difficult. So I think it's it's important to address this that it's should be changed somehow and there should be more leniency on that. Also, in both cases, in the cases of of Flicktype and in case of Oriol’s games, the app reviewers didn't seem to know a lot about VoiceOver. Like in case of Oriol They just said, Yeah, we understand that your game has VoiceOver like they clearly didn't even get that the game is accessible for the blind, that the game, how the game works. Actually, how does that relate to VoiceOver? Also, in the case of Flicktype, the developer says that they often showed that they haven't really tested the app with VoiceOver. So they don't really know a lot about accessibility, which is surprising because Apple is quite known for an outstanding commitment to accessibility, so it's surprising to see that their app reviewing team doesn't know so much about accessibility. Also, the first thing that happened that was rectified also with some recent iOS updates. Well, some Siri features that were used by many blind people disappeared. We are talking about checking your call history, the voicemail or sending emails. And for many weeks, the top technology portals have been stormed with headlines like Apple disables features important for the blind people. Well, I guess for a lot of blind people, this was important. And of course, these are very basic features. So of course, it's not good that they took it away, but it could be much worse in comparison with what happens with these apps. And also, Apple reacted quite quickly. They responded to some of the concerns to the emails, and they said they're going to bring it back and apparently they did from what I'm reading in the mailing lists right now. So it's good to know, but it's yeah, worth noting that somehow, and it's been noticed in previous versions of iOS before as well. The Siri features quietly keep disappearing for some reason. Of course, we know about like tweeting and sending Facebook posts. This was taken back because altogether, Apple has pulled out from cooperating with these portals with the social media, but also later it was made difficult for people to tune into stations with Tunein, I think. And in general, Siri wouldn't understand a lot of commands that it understood previously, and a lot of people complained that Siri is degrading in terms of what it can and how it can understand it. So this was just like the last straw, and a lot of people got very impatient, and Apple justified it with some tests of the onboard on device capabilities of Siri that does not require internet connection. But nevertheless, the community reacted and Apple reinstated, which is also a positive example that they do listen and they bring it back.
But these examples of the apps basically shows that the politics behind, you know, AppStore or PlayStore or any other store regulations and Big Tech companies, this is not very much. I think that doesn't concern us as blind people. It's slowly creeping into us, too. And we are also, yeah, becoming sort of victims here where apps that we also like are being blocked or for some reason hindered from being updated. And it's not just a single case because I came across blog posts from app developers who said that, well, their apps were also blocked for random reasons so updates wouldn't come through or they were pulled out from the App Store or Play Store for this or that reason, they had to clarify. Sometimes it was bizarre. And one of the developers that I read from, he actually decided to set up a web app and focus on it more because he said, This is going to last. This is not going to be removed any to anywhere if I don't decide to remove it. And this is not going to be prevented from being updated. So some people are already getting quite angry at the fact that, well, of course, the rules are there for a reason, and that's understandable. But sometimes it's very difficult to meet them. And even if you meet them, you're going to be thrown out anyway. So, yeah, that's how it works these days. I don't know if you have any comments on this, but. Well, it's maybe just it. Unfortunately, accessibility is not always taken into account. Maybe some other constraints were taken into account, like Border Protection or whatever that now takes the priority above accessibility and should go hand by hand.
[Paweł] Yes, that's for sure. Yeah. What you said also like this lack of knowledge of people basically about how some apps work and that apparently the people who reviewed them are there to check how the app works thoroughly, especially if in the description you have, it helps blind people and then they don't. And then they show that they don't really know much about these things and and they reject it just in case. Yeah, here is hoping that things like that will not happen anymore or that they will happen less frequently. But seeing how political it all has become, for example, with the Epic case of the Fortnite developers. Yeah, the world starts to notice that sometimes these big companies are abusing their power. And when it comes to admitting apps, when everything is centralised and you cannot really choose your own store, it's becoming difficult.
(Mario) Well, now I have to think whether should I update to iPhone or not? (Laughter)
(Pawel) Well, maybe Google will come up with something interesting too. They have made their accessibility guidelines more stringent recently on accessibility services. So you never know.
(Mario) Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. You're preparing your migration to iPhone. What are you thinking?
(Pawel) I think I'm going to build my own smartphone with my own free store.
(Mario) Uh, yes, Pawelphone.
(Pawel) Oh yes. Pawelphone.
(Laughter)
(Mario) Ok.
(Pawel) But some people are thinking about this kind of things these days. So building their own open source ecosystem. But yeah, we'll have to see. Fortunately, in… apart from Flicktype, all of the other cases have been alleviated and Apple apologised. But you can see that the developers are getting angry. Also, maybe they will be able to win something by law, especially that in in the Congress, in the United States, they are thinking of instigating some kind of legal obligation that other app stores should be allowed on these devices so that there is no monopoly, that there is some kind of shift in that direction to legally oblige big companies, big tech not to be so monopolistic. So we'll see how far they will go with that.
What’s new in Talkback 12.1? But Google. Google also is doing things, and one of these things is the new TalkBack update. Have you tested this Mario?
(Mario) No, because I didn't get it it didn't arrive to Samsung's yet
(Pawel) interesting I, I haven't tested it either, but we thankfully have a quite detailed changelog of what is to come.
(Mario) Huh. And look, it's not from Google.
(Pawel) No, sadly, it's the problem. Like, we got to the point, we got to the point where external people have to debug or find out themselves what happened and what is new and report about this. And where is Google with their press releases, with their press announcements all over the internet about, you know, making revolutionary changes for the blind? Humour aside, dark as it may be, the only change that is probably worth of notice. Maybe not the only, but the headliner change, let's say, is the fact that from now on, you can switch whether you want to type by lifting your finger or double tapping on the letters.
(Mario) Wow,
(Pawel) wow.
(Hlynur) That is a huge small change, by the way.
(Pawel) Yeah, it's it's needed. It's definitely needed. That's not to say that it's not, but. Well, Samsung introduced this in 2014. Apple had this from the beginning. Now it's there. Oh, of course. On Android, there were third party keyboards that could do this. Yeah, but now we have it and I mean, good that it's there. Sorry to see that. That is the only or almost the only worthwhile worth mentioning. Change of the whole set. Apparently, it works only with the latest GBoard versions. There is not much info if that's some kind of API that other keyboard developers can use.
(Mario) And there are still no new languages for for braille input, which is a shame.
(Pawel) Yes, and well, there are some other changes, too. You can now navigate between the different areas or zones on the screen. For example, if you have the main part of the screen, the notification shade, the status bar, the navigation bar before they were just announced. If you moved your finger over them, it would tell you home button, navigation, bar area or something like this. Now you can actually navigate between these areas. This is in the different settings on the selector that you can have different granularity settings and also you can assign gestures and keyboard shortcuts to this. This is quite interesting because on Android, a lot of things pop up, and sometimes it's difficult to get there quickly enough. Like, for example, the volume pane.
(Mario) Oh yeah, yeah, especially the accessibility volume.
(Pawel) Yes, this is quite tricky. If you want to manipulate different volumes and you just want to quickly get there, you have to touch a specific part of the screen. Now you can, you can touch it. You can find it with this with this new setting. I'm quite curious if this also works with this kind of apps that place a floating button somewhere on your screen. I think there are some apps where you can actually use a floating button to be all the time on the screen somewhere in any kind of corner. You can move it around and you can always find it, and you can always tap it and do something, depending what the app is programmed to do.
(Mario) Mm hmm.
(Pawel) I'm quite curious if this will work, because this could be also quite interesting. Usually, you had to find this button somewhere by browsing around on your screen, but now if you could find it like this, it would be much more convenient. Also, the settings for Keyboard Echo have been split into software keyboard echo and hardware keyboard Echo. This was also long requested. Also, apparently now TalkBack is a bit better at recognising images. If an image has a text description, I think it's mostly in apps like icon apps. This will be read to you, for example, before you had an image in the YouTube app that was just an image, and now it says Image YouTube. I don't know if it stretches beyond that. If it will read things from your photos, for example, or just in the in apps to make the labelling a bit clearer. And there are some cosmetic changes, too. For instance, now when you focus on some kind of zone on the screen, as I mentioned before, the name of the zone will be read first, so you'll hear navigation bar home button. I think it's quite annoying.
(Mario) Yeah. Yeah.
(Pawel) It will make reading everything much longer,
(Mario) but I think you can change that. It's related to the setting of the
(Pawel) verbosity.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah. Of the verbosity. So you can change that, like which kind of element we want to be spoken like? Do you want to have name, state or state name or whatever? So there? Those settings can be changed.
(Pawel) I hope this can be changed also. These settings, by the way, have been moved to the advanced section. They are no longer part of verbosity, but they are now in advanced the settings of the order of reading.
(Mario) And yeah, and there is one also interesting thing which I saw and that's the announcement of the speech speed when you are now. So before, if you would change the TTS speed with the with the gestures, with the TalkBack gestures, it would say faster or slower, but you would not know how fast it goes. But now they say that it should speak percentage.
(Pawel) Yes, that's a nice one.
(Mario) Yeah, that's good.
(Pawel) Also, if your TTS should crash for some reason because you're updating it, for example, TalkBack will switch to the next available TTS. The only problem with that is if you want to go back to your preferred TTS, you have to restart TalkBack.
(Mario) Yeah, that's true. Yeah.
(Pawel) So there is there are a couple of cosmetic changes like moving options around, some things being announced differently and so on. But that's it for this version. So not much. And the jump in the number of version is significant because they
(Mario)They jumped from nine to 12. Yes. And the thing is, I will tell you why is that is because now the version numbers are the same as with Samsung TalkBack versions. Yeah. So because for whatever reason, Samsung came out with the 12th version long time ago, actually since they launched Android 11. And um yeah, now they they merged the the numbering. So basically it should be the same.
(Pawel) Mm hmm.
Yeah, it's still if you look at the changes and if you I know the reasoning, but still, if you look at the changes from from 9 to 12,
(Mario) yeah. Yeah,
(Pawel) it's you should have I don't know what car engine. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
An update to Vocalizer for Android after a long silence (Mario) Speaking of the things connected to the TalkBack, there was a recent update for Vocalizer their Android two days ago, which came out just after two years and four months of waiting. So because everybody thought that they're no longer going to maintain it, but they did come out with the newer update, and now it's. It's with a version3.72, and uh, yeah, there are there are some bugs fixed. It was not optimised for Android 11. So if you would use it more frequently, you would come to the point that all of the, for example, voice messages that you listen on WhatsApp or Telegram or whatever would switch to your ear earphone and you would not hear them anymore on your. Phone speaker, but at the same time, your screen would get bugged and it would not work until you would not press the power button to unlock the phone, and it was annoying, but now it's fixed, so that's also good. So if yeah, one one thing is that if you are usingVocalizer, don't be surprised if after the update, your Vocalizer stops talking or your phone. So you might want to switch to your alternative TTS while doing the update, because you will have to redownload all of the voices again, because they they did some structuring and restructuring, so the voices are not probably kept on the same location or whatever, so they need to be redownload it completely.
(Pawel) The Croatian voice pronounce things better now or is it still there?
(Mario) No, actually, it's not pronouncing the things better, but uh, what I noticed is that also if you changed from the pro version to the compact voice, the speech gets much better, which is which is strange because the compact voices have a little bit lower speech quality. But I have to say that I switched completely to the old compact voices and on the phone speaker, If you are listening or listening one on one phone speaker, there is not too much difference and they're much, much smaller to
(Pawel) OK. It's good to know.
(Mario) Yeah.
New accessibility features for audio in Youtube videos (Pawel) But that's not everything that is new in the Google land, and I think you can tell us Tanja a little bit about the new changes in YouTube. What is in store for people who who would like some accessibility features on their audio?
(Tanja) Yeah, so YouTube announced the new audio features to improve the accessibility of the videos. One is already rolled out, and it is that creators now have the possibility to have automated live captioning for live stream in English. Until now, this was possible only for creators that have more than one thousand subscribers. Now it is available for everyone. The plan is also to cover all other languages that are currently supported by the automated captioning and from the European languages. These are Dutch, French, German, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and Russian, and there are also some other Asian languages. What is interesting for us is that they are planning to roll out the feature to add additional audio tracks, which is useful if you want to have a separate audio track in another language. But for us, this means that we can also have the audio description audio track if it is provided. I wonder what happens if the length is not the same, because we know that sometimes the audio description is longer. There are some pauses in between, so normally I suppose it should be sinked and have the same length as the video. Then also well for the audio tracks. Actually, they say that it will be available in the coming quarters, that it is available for a small group of creators. But I remember Pavel, that you shared with us a year ago….
(Pawel) Yes. Video Where it worked.
(Tanja) It already worked, but apparently it was not really official or again, it was limited to some users. And now they're planning to make it more official because at that time, if you were checking the official website of Google…
(Pawel) there was nothing on it
(Tanja) Nothing. Yes. So now it will be more official. And then I think also creators will have to learn about audio description because first step is having the functionality and next step is really creating audio description. But of course, without the functionality, it's impossible. Ok, so then what they are planning to add is automatic translation of the caption. It is available apparently already on the desktop, but it will come on Android and iOS, and they are planning also to make available the search of the transcript so that you can even search that. The search includes the transcript of the video, which would be nice because we know that the transcript improves the “searchability” or the SEO of the content.
(Pawel) Mm hmm. They're also thinking of adding the special role for people to add subtitles on your channel if you have a channel and you would like to delegate this to somebody. Now you can, which is probably a response to them switching off the community captions before a community based where basically everyone could have provided captions. And yeah, it's it was a useful feature, but it was also abused in some cases. And this is going to roll out in the following years and quarters. This is good to know. Yes, I'm also wondering how many people will use this, especially the audio tracks. I don't think an average YouTuber will. That's the problem because it's already a lot of work to prepare content in some case.
(Tanja) Yes, yes. But I remember a few years ago I was asked how they can add an audio description on a video and we were struggling how to do this. And one of the options was “we should create a separate video like audio only”. And as we know in accessibility, this is completely wrong. It should be everything integrated in the original one.
(Pawel) Yes, I agree. And this is especially annoying even for accessibility campaigns or for some kind of showcase of audio description. A lot of studios or organisations that deal with audio description. They sometimes put up some videos or movies for free, and they actually have to upload two separate versions, and that's quite problematic.
(Tanja) Mm-hmm.
(Pawel) I'm also looking forward to the fact that we will be able to switch between languages because this is also quite important if you're learning a language and you just want to switch or choose, or even even if you know you are an organisation like the European Parliament or the EBU or any other organisation that deals with international content and creates campaigns, uploading this in one go with alternative tracks is very important. So I think, yes, this is a good change, and it's sad that it's so late, but it's good that it's there.
(Mario) I'm wondering when we will have also some normal guidelines for, you know, for people who want to create the audio tracks available. And I'm wondering if you would be able to add additionally, these audio tracks to the videos that are being already on YouTube.
(Tanja) Normally, I suppose, yes, if you are the content creator. You cannot upload to something that is already existing. But as content creator, I suppose yes.
(Pawel) This should be in the YouTube studio because you can also put subtitles on afterwards.
(Mario) Mm hmm.
(Pawel) And this is something what you usually do like. You probably upload your video first and then you add the subtitles onto it somehow or in the process. And I think you just will have to click on edit and you will just add the alternative tracks onto it.
(Mario) Huh? Nice.
(Pawel) That's how if I think it will work, but would be sensible.
(Mario) Yeah.
What’s new in JAWS 2022? (Pawel) Moving on, Vispero
Vispero is out with a new line-up of their products
for2022, and that includes also JAWS2022. You have tested this Tanja I think you wanted to test it?
(Tanja) Yes, I did, yes.
(Pawel) And how do you find the new features?
(Tanja) Actually, there are some interesting features. For example, the split audio
(Mario) Oh but something that's been stolen.
(Tanja laughs) Yes, actually, we were speaking about this a year ago. It was a software called how it was called Babel.
(Mario) No, it is. It was from Babbage.
(Tanja) Babbage, OK.
(Mario) It's from that company. And they also created the audio splitter for NVDA, (Tanja) and It was a quite expensive one.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) So finally, now it's integrated into JAWS. I hope we will see soon this in NVDA because it is quite nice one. You can root JAWS to one channel and all other sounds to the other channel, meaning if you have headphones, you can route JAWS to left here and all the other sounds to the right ear. If you are listening a conference and at the same time you have some notifications or emails that you would like to check so you can route the sounds and you can do this by pressing Insert space and then V as volume and then B as balanced and then use the arrows, depending where you would like to route JAWS. Also, you can. If you have headphones, you can route JAWS to default sound card of the laptop so you can have the sound. All other sounds in the headphones, in the headphones and then JAWS on the laptop speakers. So well, depending on on the number of sound cards, you can do different things and I'm surprised that this didn't come earlier, but it came. Also a nice…
(Mario) You know, it'sCovid, you know, everybody is so slow.
(Pawel) Yeah, I can tell you even more interesting thing that some gamer, some headphones for gamers or headsets for gamers actually offer this natively for any app you want. They have two sound cards and you can actually use one sound card as the left channel and the right sound card is the right channel and you can distribute the sound however you like. I think SteelSeries is one of the companies that makes headsets which work like this. If you install their software, they will present themselves as two separate sound cards and you can route the audio as you wish.
(Mario) Mm hmm.
Mm
(Tanja) hmm. Ok. That's a nice one. Ok, then the second option that is also quite interesting is that you can now change the sound card for JAWS on the fly with the shortcut. So normally before you would need to enter into JAWS options. But if you don't have the sound, it's very difficult or almost impossible. Now you can do this again by pressing Insert space and then the V as volume and then C as card. And by pressing arrows, you will choose one of the cards that are available and then pressing enter, you will confirm. It happened to me, actually, just before we started recording this podcast, I plug in my microphone, which was recognised as an external speaker, and then I lost the sound from the speakers.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) So these are some of the situations when this can be really handy if you have JAWS running at that moment. So there are some, some nice things, and I suppose they are working also on Windows 11 compatibility. Actually, when I installed Windows 11, I was using JAWS 2022. I didn't try even JAWS2021, so I don't know if there are any differences. Probably, yes, but I didn't try.
(Pawel) Think it's also worth mentioning that the support for Windows 7 and 8.1 will be dropped. So if you were still on that,
(Mario) What about XP? And Internet Explorer?
(Pawel) Yeah, yeah, Probably move that too. And yes, there are also there is a migration wizard, so the import of settings from a previous version is now smoother and there's a number of fixes. There are some improvements for office apps. It should work faster with office365, especially with outlook messages.
(Mario) I was saying that the outlook is being slow sometimes with screen readers. Yeah, NVDA especially what I found out is that you can make a separate profile in NVDA for outlook and then what you need to turn off in the in that profile for NVDA is to turn off the tables from from being announced, because when you're viewing many emails with NVDA and outlook, they are being pronounced as emails with many, many tables, while the other screen reader, such as JAWS, do not announce that. Mm
(Pawel) hmm.
I also notice with NVDA that the Excel is not the fastest on the web, it works, but you can feel kind of delay before you get where you need.
(Mario) Are you talking about the last version because the last version has been speed up?
(Pawel) I mean, the web one, the web.
(Mario) The Web one?
(Pawel) Yes. Yes, yes. Well,
(Mario) yeah.
Mastercard introduces more accessible card design (Pawel) At any rate, there is also some news from MasterCard.
(Mario) Mustercard, is that the mustard thing that you put on the on your hot dogs? (Pawel Musstardcard, NO Mastercard.
But MasterCard, they have actually made a public announcement in the recent days where they announced the release of the so-called Touch Card, which is a yeah their payment card as usual. Except it has a notch and an embossing, which basically shows you what kind of card you're holding if it's a credit card, debit card or a prepaid payment card. And this is how they try to address the fact that all payment cards are becoming flat designed with nothing embossed on them. And yes, they’re trying to contribute to accessibility like this.
And
(Mario) that's one of the examples where the low tech becomes important.
(Pawel) Yes, and the headline news as well, because it was a very probably easy thing to make, but it just requires somebody to think about it. It's good that it's there. I hope they will not stop at that, I hope they will make it a bit more accessible too, because embossed things are also quite important. I have a MasterCard car that my bank issued to me. I think it was quite recently, two years ago or something, and it still has all the digits of the card number embossed and Chip. So the the part that you have to slide into the reader is also tactile. You can feel it. So I don't see it as much as a problem. I guess it's different with different banks as well. They could embose some more data on it. Even the CVV, the three digits that could be embossed too. Now, maybe the expiry date, I don't know if it would fit anymore. Maybe it would. And also, I don't know. In my case, the digits are very small, so you can sort of feel them. But if you don't really know the number of your card, you can't read it properly like that. It's very small, very tiny, even like under my and my fingers, I can't really feel what digit that is.
(Mario) No, for me that's impossible. I'm using, for example, visa cards and my fingers because of the fact that I'm a bass player are not that sensitive, so I feel something under my fingers. But what is it? No way. I can not recognise that.
(Pawel) Hmm.
(Tanja) I think rather the future is using smartphones or smartwatches for payment because there all these information that you said are accessible. You can access them in your phone wallet. And then you also avoid inaccessible payment terminals
(Mario) which which are touch screen,
(Tanja) Which are touch screen. And you can see also the amount that you are paying because normally we rely on the information that is given to us from the cashier. And yes, and of course, I mean, it could be whatever, so then you can read on your phone, what is the amount? So I think this should be the feature for some reason in Europe, we are very much using a lot of these cards, but I heard that, for example, in Asia, in some countries, they are much more using smartphones for payment. They are not using cards anymore.
(Pawel) Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think in from my example, in Poland, the adoption is quite high for this kind of novelty mobile payments. I think it was last year, actually or two two years ago. I think when I was explaining about the Blik system where we have these quick codes that you can give into the terminal and you can pay just by confirming the payment in your phone and your banking app. And it's quite common to send your friends money via phone numbers from one banking app to another. Mm-hmm. And also Apple Pay, Google Pay. They're being adopted and now Blik, which is this standard again, is adopting also this contactless payments. So you can if you don't for some reason, like Google or Apple being in control of your payments, you can also use the national standard and it will work the same with NFC and everything. So they are going in that direction too. But it's also important at the same time to have this low tech things accessible just in case somebody is not very familiar with smart technologies or your battery runs out or anything happens as a backup.
(Tanja) That is true.
(Pawel) Good to have
(Tanja) In Croatia, we have something already for a while. We have braille on our ID card. So initially it was printed for everyone, the two braille letters, so that you know that this is your ID card. And then later, for some reason, they decided to make it available only by request.
(Mario) Yes.
(Tanja) So you ask if you need it. I don't know if this represented a burden or what, but they decided to keep it only for those who ask for braille printed on the plastic.
(Pawel) In Poland it’s the same. I mean, we have these letters, regardless of which you ask or not, we don't have this requirement, but they are very illegible. If I didn't know what they were or if nobody told me I wouldn't be able to tell.
(Mario) Oh, no, no, here it's really, it's very visible.
(Pawel) Yeah. Also in Austria, my my disability ID is quite legible. I can definitely read the two letters that signify it's a disability ID, so there is no problem of that.
(Tanja) Yeah, but something that actually I wanted to share what I use for my cards is a wallet card. Maybe you are using the same, so then you can label in braille every card so you don't do it directly on the card, but you label the pockets on the wallet and you know which card it is, because today you have a card almost for every subscription. So you end up with like 15 cards and of course, you don't know which is what.
(Pawel) Mm hmm.
(Tanja) And this is the system that I'm using for my cards.
(Pawel) This is good. This is handy. I didn't think about that, card holders for everything. Yeah.
(Tanja) Yeah, actually, I prefer not to carry my cash wallet at all because it's heavy, but really to have only the cards. I hope in the future will be only the phone.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah.
(Tanja) Yeah.
(Pawel) For us, it's pretty easy to use that. I hope they'll go beyond that. I hope they'll make some more accessibility adjustments like this. What we mentioned, so maybe some either braille or bigger digits for the most important data.
(Mario) Oh, come on, they will come on. They will come up with another low-tech thing. If they're if they're listening to our podcast, they will now design the card holder from MasterCard.
(Pawel) Yes, with braille on it already.
(Mario) Yes. With Braille already. Yeah.
(Pawel) Now this is also important if the numbers are there, embossed, because if you can read it yourself, you can also independently insert the data into your Apple Wallet or Google Pay.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah. So let's see.
(Pawel) Let's see if if MasterCard will do more for accessibility. I'm quite curious. Also, other banks try to do it. I think ING has this policy now that they want to make a notch on the card so that you know which way to turn it in to the reader. So there is some thought put into that. Definitely. But we need more. We need accessible terminals. We need accessible banking apps and websites and…
(Tanja) Absolutely, but this is something that is planned and actually is included in the scope of the European Accessibility Act. And I don't know if our listeners remember, so the European Accessibility Act was adopted in 2019. Next year is the transposition phase of adopting and translating the directive into national legislation, and 2025 will be the year when the law needs to be enforced. And probably we will wait for some time because I can imagine that this will apply only to new payment terminals. I don't know from that from that day, but there will be something because having a touch screen payment terminal, it's just inaccessible.
(Hlynur) Probably it will be the same as with the websites. At first it's only applicable to new websites, but in time it means that, just to give those who are already up their time to make the necessary changes. But at some point the law has to apply to everyone.
(Mario) So 2045, OK, when I go to retirement.
(Hlynur) 2345 maybe.
(Laughter)
(Pawel) Yes, seeing the web accessibility directive, yeah.
(Hlynur) Let’s be optimistic.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah. 2045, yes.
(Tanja) If we are not, who is optimistic?
(Pawel) Yeah. I mean, also, you can see that this, especially the bigger companies seem to at least show some signs of taking some responsibility. So the payment terminals are dependent on a couple of companies. Probably, so let's hope this one will actually work out mostly with some system updates or some other solutions
(Tanja) Hlynur, are you included in the EAA?
(Hlynur) Iceland is not. No, we are working on getting the European Accessibility Directive fully implemented, but the European Accessibility Act is further down the line.
(Tanja) That's a pity.
(Hlynur) Yeah, it is. Believe you, me.
(Pawel) Ok.
(Hlynur) So pretty much the only legal thing that we have, yeah, is basically nothing we can say, yeah, what you're doing is wrong. So yeah. Shame on you. But they're currently not officially breaking any laws yet.
(Mario) Breaking the law.
The voice behind Siri stars in a campaign by an accessibility overlay company (Pawel) Speaking of different laws and policies. We, of course, know that websites should be accessible and so do know a couple of other companies that come up with the so-called accessibility overlays and something I came across…
(Mario) Again?
(Pawel) Yes yes. Something I came across recently. There is this company called Userway, and they made a promo video for themselves. And they employed Susan Bennett, the actress who is behind the original Siri voice as the ambassador, sort of, of their new latest campaign where she is shown assisting people with different tasks, like telling them how much calories a certain product has or which way to go. And then she says, Yeah, but this is only as much as I can do because there are millions of disabled people worldwide who cannot be helped by me because the websites are not accessible, but you can help by placing just one single line of code.
(Everyone) No!
(Hlynur) Damn it.
(Pawel) And I think they actually selected a voice that is very well familiar to blind people. That is a sort of like the leading voice of the most used product by blind people worldwide, by the iPhone, because you can also use this voice, I think, in VoiceOver.
(Hlynur) Brilliant marketing. I'll give them that, but, damn it
(Pawel) Yes. And this kind of example and it's sad to see that this still carries on because a lot of people will, you know, somehow believe it and go for it and we actually see what happens when they do.
(Mario) Yeah, well. Beep.
(Pawel) Yes.
(Hlynur) Let's just hope this doesn't have to go further than it needs to go.
(Pawel) Hmm. Yeah.
(Mario) I mean, I don't see the difference between this, is it called Userway?
(Pawel) Yes, Userway. Mm hmm.
(Mario) And uh…
(Pawel) Accessibe.
(Mario) That Accessibe thing, which was actually a few months ago.
(Pawel) Yeah, no. It's actually problematic. I think Userway is the one that is quite prominent in Poland, like at least from the top hundred websites that are Accessi-bye-bye detected being from Poland. Yeah, yeah. Userway was installed on all of them that were there in this top 10, top 100. Well, sad to see, but we'll find also other advocacy in other figures of prominence and authority who will say that yes, hire, for example, a blind person to check if your website is really accessible.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) Install a free plugin and check the accessibility of your website already with. With this, you can we can see issues and work on these. I mean, OK, of course, second step would be really working manually, but already by installing, not only installing a simple plugin, you have the lighthouse included Edge Chromium or Chrome browser. So you just open Developer Tools and you find out what are the issues.
(Pawel) Yeah.
(Mario) Well, you know, people have to open this stuff.
(Tanja) Yeah, yeah, probably there. First of all, not aware.
(Mario) No.
(Tanja) But how would they're aware about this one line solution? And they're not aware about real solutions.
(Pawel) Marketing.
(Tanja) Yeah.
(Mario) It is marketing, but it's at the same time. It's even more sad to see that nobody from the,I would say, first of all, nobody from the organisations who are dealing actually with the accessibility didn't sit down with the Susan Bennett and explain to her some stuff, how the stuff actually works. Because I mean, come on. I mean, we understand that she received who knows how much, how many millions for this campaign, but… still, I mean, if you would understand how some things actually work, I wouldn't take those millions, but it's me.
(Pawel) Now we don't know how much. So before we jump into claims, you know, (Mario) Well, it wasn't free, man.
(Pawel) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, well, so there is that, it's sad to see and let's hope that the real accessibility. Please stand up. Please stand up.
(All laughing)
(Mario) Yeah.
(Hlynur) As we talked about, of course, earlier, there are probably good intentions. I mean, Bad solutions have come from good intentions before.
(Pawel) Yeah.
(Hlynur) Just that being said.
(Mario) Yeah, well.
(Pawel) Okay.
(Hlynur) It doesn’t mean I recommend the product, though.
(Pawel) Mm hmm.
Ok. So we arrived at the end of this episode. Believe it or not.
(Mario singing)
(Tanja) With this bitter end.
(Pawel) Yeah, yeah. It wasn't very optimistic, but the optimistic thing is that we still have a demo for you. And this is from Hlynur, who actually interviewed developers in Iceland who created a solution for those of us who would like to play some tabletop games. Hlynur, what is it about?
(Hlynur) It's quite interesting. Actually, just started with this one guy whose son is visually impaired or almost blind and the family were quite used to playing board games. But he felt like that he wasn't exactly being equal to the others. Like you can imagine if you would have to have your cards read out for you by your opposition player. So he did the probably most Icelandic thing in the world. He just took it into his own hands and has created this app that is meant to make board games more accessible. So it's quite interesting.
(Pawel) Ok. We'll probably find out more about this in the interview,
(Hlynur) Yeah, don't want to spoil too much.
(Pawel) Yes, keep listening. And yeah, if you have any queries and questions, you will definitely find out also ways to contact the developer of the solution. And yeah,
Ebu Access Cast interview. (Hlynur) Hey, guys. Hlynur here. I have an excellent guest with me right now, Ísak Jónsson, welcome.
(Ísak) Thank you.
(Hlynur) So you have been working on a new app, making board games accessible to the blind. Could you tell me maybe a bit about how it works?
(Ísak) Yeah, this is an app called Retinaid, which is used. It's an app. You just open the app on your phone and then if you have a game that you wish to play and you have the game box with you, you use the barcode on the game box to identify the game that you are going to play. And when the game has been identified, then the cards that belong to the game can all be described by the app to the user.
(Hlynur) Ok, so the app uploads all the info about the cards of the game once you scan the barcode.
(Ísak) Yeah, once you get the barcode, yes, they are retrieved all the data connected to that particular game and you have like descriptions of all the cards and even tokens and things that belong to that game. So then, you know, and it doesn't matter if it's text on the card or small, small like, symbols or things like that. This can all be described by the AR because basically what the app is,it knows that the card is you're holding is the card you're holding.
(Hlynur) Yeah.
(Ísak) And so you can just write then, a description of the card in whatever language you want, you know.
(Hlynur) Once developing?
(Ísak) Yes.
(Hlynur) So the symbol or the fraction of text that you use to identify each card and each token, it must be unique to that single card or token.
(Ísak) Yes. Yes, yes. Yes, yes. Yes. That's the technical way of doing it. Yes.
(Hlynur) Ok, does that mean that it can't be used for every board game in the world? (Ísak) No, it needs to have support. You need to build support for every board came into this app for it to do its magic because, you know, this is the only way to do it. I think, because the cards have very, it’s very hard to make something that generally, you know, understands cards because they are so different.
(Hlynur) Ok, now I've never heard of a project like this before. Is there any competition in this market?
(Ísak) I don't know. I don't think there's anything on the market that does this, apart from this, I think this hasn’t been done.
(Hlynur) So what made you start all this?
(Ísak) Well, the fact that I have a son who is legally blind and we had been playing board games at home and I began to feel that he was not, you know, equal to us, the other people playing. Because if you had to describe the cards to him, you know, to help him see, read, text or things on the cards, then you immediately knew what cards he was holding, which is, of course, when you're playing board games, that's very often not desirable that somebody who's playing against you is…
(Hlynur) Knows your hand.
(Ísak) Yes, exactly. So this began to annoy me, and I began to look for solutions to this and I tried some of the solutions that are out there that are, you know, like readers, that you can make them show text to the camera and it tries to read it for you.
(Hlynur) Yeah, OCR.
(Ísak) Yes. And but they were not working that well because, you know, the cards are very often designed. You don't have like black Helvetica font on white background on the cards, you have very various designs. So it wasn't actually, it was working terribly. Apps like that didn't work at all. And of course, when it comes to symbols on the cards that, of course, you know that that's impossible for an OCR app to know what that is.
(Hlynur) Yeah.
(Ísak) So I just, you know, saw that the product didn't exist in the market. But at the same time, I realised that the technology existed because you just have to make the phone recognise the card and this can be done with either, you know, recognising a piece of text or with image recognition. And once the phone recognises the card, you can, just as I said, you can make it describe it in very accurate detail in whatever language you want, you know?
(Hlynur) Ok, so you have what, how many? So this is a quite a bit of work for every board game that you would need to support.
(Ísak) Yes.
(Hlynur) So you would, manually need to first identify.
(Ísak) It's, of course, very varied work because they are, you know, some Pawe games are very complex, while others are more simple. But but yet generally it's a lot of work. The current version has support for over one hundred board games, so there's quite a bit of work being put in already. And these are very popular games and very varied games, you know, uh, everything from Monopoly and Cluedo and things like that to some newer and popular board games like Seven Wonders and Horrified, Bang The Dice Game and you know, some games like that.
(Hlynur) Ok. And so you need to first identify the piece of text or sample that you would need to be unique to be able to describe the card, then you will need to write and decide the text description.
(Ísak) Yes, we basically just have a database where we are, you know, you know, where we have the description for every card and every card is given its unique identifier and the piece of text that is used to identify it.
(Hlynur) This sounds like a lot of work. So how, when did you start? How long have you been doing this?
(Ísak) This has been going on for about a year now with, you know, along with work, you know, other work. I have been working with a German programmer called Markus and we have been working on it, sort of, you know, on and off for a year.
(Hlynur) Ok. Ok. And have you been just doing this as volunteers? Have you gotten any grants or how have you been financing this project?
(Ísak) This, we have gotten some uh, we've got some, uh, grants from fund here in Iceland called Stuðningur til sjálfstæðis. I'm wondering about the English name of that, uh.
(Hlynur) Support for independence.
(Ísak) Support for independence. Yes. Yes, and there's the grants we got from that are basically what allowed this to happen because they are, you know, because, you know, paying for programming is very expensive. And of course, this is a lot of work. So that was those grants are, you know, what allowed this to happen. And then we've also gotten some more funds from like memorial.
(Hlynur) Yeah, memorial funds like when people die and leave some money for special projects.
(Ísak) Exactly. So, yeah,
(Hlynur) OK. But what what is the plan for the future? You told me earlier that you were in beta stages both on Android and iOS. So can anyone go and get the app right now?
(Ísak) Yeah, well, it's kind of an opt in beta. So if you just contact me, then you can I can send you the link. Or if you have TestFlight on your iOS, then you can. Then we can add you to the beta programme.
(Hlynur) OK, OK, we will definitely leave your contact info or any way for people to be able to reach you or in the description.
(Ísak) Yes, that would be excellent because we need a lot of testers. This is fundamental.
(Hlynur) Awesome. So what is the next step? Where do you see this app going in the future?
(Ísak) Yeah, I would like to, you know, next year, I would like to steer this up to what being a sustainable, you know, thing that can be worked on without having to depend on income from other work, you know, and for that, I would like to see some sort of crowd funding and perhaps, you know, some sort of, end up with some sort of subscription model for it, you know, where people just subscribed to it because this is an ongoing thing that is never, this is an app that's never finished because there are very there are board games released every day.
(Hlynur) You told me there are around five board games released every day in the world.
(Ísak) Well, it feels like that. But perhaps at least you know.
(Hlynur) Okay, but this surely sounds awesome, and I'm sure that our listeners would love to get a short demo of how it works. You have brought with you a couple of board games.
(Ísak) Yes, I have here with me, for example, is a game called Horrified with Is a cooperative game, which games like that have been very popular as of late. Where you are not exactly playing against other people, you are collaborating as players to beat the game and you have to fight creatures like Dracula and Frankenstein and the creature from the Black Lagoon, all while some silly villagers are running around the board and you have to save them. And if they kill too many of them, then you lose and or if they, you know…
(Retinaid app) You can now scan a barcode of a game.
(Ísak) So here I have the bar code for that.
(Retinaid app) You are now ready to play Horrified. You can show a card here, a badge, villager remover or item token that you wish to identify to your phone camera.
(Ísak) And here I have a card to this from the monster deck, which you have to draw at some points in the game.
(Retinaid app) Thief. Items. Place two items on the board. Event. Place the Invisible Man at the location with the most items. Discard all the items there. Monster Strike, The Mummy, The Creature and Frankenstein move one space and attack with three dice if they reach a hero or a villager.
(Hlynur) Ok. This is full of information.
(Ísak) This is full of information. Yes. There's a lot of information here, and this is the most of it is explaining what little tokens little symbols on the card say. The least of this is the text.
(Hlynur) I can see this save a lot of marriages.
(Laughing) Exactly. And here in this game, we also have items that are lying around on board. They can also be identified.
(Retinaid app) Crucifix. This item should be placed in the church. It is a yellow item with a strength of four.
(Ísak) Yes, and could also identify the silly villagers. Here is a villager mover, and I will show this to him.
(Retinaid app) This is Renfield. He wants to get to the hospital.
(Hlynur) Yeah. Okay. So you need to help him get to the hospital.
(Ísak) Yeah, he shows up. Actually, the villagers show up in the monster cards. You know, they say, Place this villager there, and then you need to get him to another place on the board to save him.
(Hlynur) So like challenges.
(Ísak) Yes, it's like challenges. And if. And of course, the monsters, they get attracted to them and try to chase them. And it's a lot of there's a lot of things going on.
(Hlynur) Okay. So this basically means that you can play this board game without needing someone to read your cards for you and know what's on your hand. So you can play by yourself playing against others, even though you might need some help, like moving things around the board itself.
(Ísak) Yeah, there is, uh, that boards are something that we have not very much started to, you know, support. Although there's one board game called Tapestry, which is a board game that is similar to a computer game called civilisation. If anyone wants that and Tapestry your building like the best civilisation with technology and military and things like that. And that is the only board game where we have actually put in some support for the game board itself because the method we were using, it worked quite well. While, you know for just showing the spaces and explains what the spaces do.
(Hlynur) What was the name of that, that board game? Can you spell it for us?
(Ísak) Tapestry T-A-P-E-S-T-R-Y..
(Hlynur) Ok, Tapestry..
(Ísak) Yes, Tapestry. I think it's pronounced Tapestry. Yeah, it's like carpet. But oh yeah.
(Hlynur) Ok, so this this looks very, very exciting. So in in a few months, what will you be hoping to do, support more games like are there, do you have a web page or an info page where people can? Can they find somewhere a list of all the board games that this app supports currently or?
(Ísak) We don't actually have a web page up for that yet, but I can. I can give you a list. That's no problem.
(Hlynur) Ok, so we could share with our listeners.
(Ísak) A list of games that it supports. That would be awesome. I think many might be very excited about this.
(Ísak) Ok. And of course, if you have a, you know, suggestions for games that you would like to be added, then we can look at that of course, if it's technological, if they if the current technology allows it because the current technology does not allow us to support every game because sometimes it's just difficult. We have not yet started doing image recognition, but it is something we will do in the future because that's. Today, that's a very processor hungry, you know, thing. So we are envisioning that in four or five years, that might be more feasible to be using image recognition for this.
(Hlynur) Yeah, it's better if your battery can survive a whole Monopoly game, I guess.
(Ísak) Exactly. Yeah.
(Hlynur) Ok, thank you very much for coming, Ísak. And if you guys have any further questions or would like to try this out, you will find Ísak’s contact details in the show notes. So thank you very much for coming and take care.
(Ísak) Thank you.
(Pawel) That is it from us for this episode. Episode number 34, proudly presented by us. And of course, if you have any kind of questions and queries, feel free to contact us as well. Send us your questions, send us your remarks, perhaps suggestions for topics that you think we should discuss. And yes, enjoy this listen. We hope you did. And that's it for now. So take care everyone until the next episode and bye bye.
(Others) Bye.
Thank you for listening to EBU Access Cast. If you want to contact us, you can send us an email to ebuaccesscast@euroblind.org
or find us on Twitter at @ebuaccesscast.
Welcome back to the 33rd episode of the EBU Access Cast
Here we provide transcription of the 33rd episode of the EBU Access Cast.
In this episode Hlynur, Mario, Tanja and Pawel cover a wide range of topics regarding accessibility, from Pawel’s birthday present to himself to a new software suite that turns up Mario’s cravings for cheesecake to the maximum… and everything in between.
We cover the ongoing European Commission survey on digital accessibility, where the objective is to seek feedback to improve public sector website and mobile apps accessibility. We encourage everyone to partake in the survey and let your voice be heard.
Also we took a look at a new mod for the game Hearthstone by Blizzard, how it works and how the new mod has increased its accessibility. The website named Can I play that was also mentioned.
Mario went with us through the new Sunu app update for the Sunu band and how he used it patience as a weapon in dealing with some bluetooth issues regarding it.
There were not let-downs in the Gadget section. The show’s number one online shopper, also known as Pawel, showcased his new JBL Link Portable speaker and Tanja spoke about a Minimize to tray option she finds handy. Some discussions were also about Chromecasting music and more related topics.
Tweesecake, not Cheesecake, is a new light-weight, multi-purpose, robust software suite that allows users to easily use keybord commands to control Twitter and Telegra, navigate your file system and much more. We looked in to it.
An easy way to create a digital copy of your Covid certificate and store in your phone wallet? Yes please! We took a look at getcovidpass.eu before taking on Apple’s “California Streaming” online event and their newcomings.
We took a look at what is new inside the newest Beta version of Android 12.
And if that wasn’t enough already we had discussions on digital accessibility matters from Hlynur’s point of view after his Siteimprove conference input.
Last but not least, an interview with Gleb Zevkov, CEO of Voxmate.
We hope you guys enjoy the show, we sure did!
Transcription of EBU Access Cast – episode 33 (Jingle)
This programme is financially supported by the fundings from the European Commission.
You are listening to the EBU Access Cast. The official podcast from the European Blind Union about assistive technology for blind and partially sighted people.
And here is our host.
(Hlynur) Hey, there, everyone, and welcome to the EBU Access Cast episode 33. My name is Hlynur Þór, calling you from Iceland. And I'm not here by myself, even though I am here by myself, but with me are three wonderful people. So with me here is Mario Perčinić from Croatia. Hello, Mario.
(Mario) Hello, sir. How's it going?
(Hlynur) We're going good, I think. How about you Pawel Masarczyk from Poland?
(Pawel) Doing all right over here in Austria as well.
(Hlynur) Yes. And last but certainly not least, Tanja Kleut from Croatia.
(Tanja) Hello. And based in Luxembourg.
(Hlynur) Based in Luxembourg. So how are you guys doing?
(Tanja) Fine
(Mario) Uh, yeah. I finally had my summer break. So yes.
(Pawel) So did I, it was nice. Well, it's nice to get out somewhere different for a change.
(Hlynur) Yeah, somewhere over the rainbow.
(Pawel) I've been to Italy and it was quite nice. It was just a couple of days, but we really liked it. My my parents were here and we enjoyed it.
(Hlynur) Awesome. Some of us here in Iceland have had a wonderful summer. You know,0 Iceland is kind of a small island, though.
(Mario) Oh yeah.
(Hlynur) But but in the northern and the eastern…
(Mario) Did you have more than eight degrees?
(Hlynur) Yeah, we had like 12 here in Reykjavik, an average something like that.
(All laughing)
(Hlynur) But it was kind of unfair this time around because the northern and the eastern part of Iceland had what in the. If you look at like June, July and August, they had like 70 days out of those 90 days with over 20 degrees. Well, we I think we had around four here in Reykjavik.
(All surprised)
(Mario) Holy.
(Hlynur) So kind of unfair if you ask me. That's why I'm never asked, of course. But so how are we pandemically doing?
(Mario) Oh, I'm fine.
(Tanja) Well, we were not sick. So this is the most important.
(Hlynur) Yeah, none of us.
(Pawel) Nothing on my side, either, fortunately.
(Hlynur) Oh great. Great to know.
(Mario) The Croatian coast was quite packed, I have to say.
(Tanja) With tourists.
(Mario) Yeah, with tourists.
(Tanja) Not with the virus.
(Mario) Well, we didn't see the virus. But speaking of the, you know, coast being packed with people, uh yeah. So we could see that, uh, the vaccine is working so.
(Hlynur) Yeah, so it seems. So it seems. So good. It's good to know that everyone is feeling well.
(Mario) Even though we had some, at least I had some weird situation with my COVID pass. But yeah, we will talk about that.
(Hlynur) Yeah, we will definately talk about that one. So just going over what we will be discussing. Of course, we have the news and we have the gadgets. As always, Pawel, you are our guy with the gadgets, of course.
(Mario)Inspector Gadget.
(Hlynur laughing) Inspector Gadget.
(Pawel) Coming back again.
(Hlynur) Coming back again. Yeah, we have also taken a look at a new thing called Tweesecake.
(Mario) I thought cheesecake.
(Hlynur) Kind of like it.
(Pawel) Like a tweeting cheesecake.
(Hlynur) If you would consider a cheesecake, a lightweight, multipurpose, robust software suite which allows users to easily use keyboard commands to control Twitter and Telegram, navigate your file system and much more than, yes, it would be a cheesecake. We were also wondering if there's an easy way to create a digital copy of your COVID certificate and safely place it in your phone wallet. Well, we took a look at a new option called Getcovidpass.eu, which claims to do exactly that. But does it work and how does it work? Well, you’re gonna have to listen to find out. There was also Apple hosting a conference on September 14th with the catchy title California Streaming. But what did they reveal? A new iPhone, AirPods or a new watch maybe? We will also be going over some of the new features in the latest Beta version of the Android 12 that we will share with you. And we will have some discussions about... well from my part, I was talking at a conference in Iceland for a company called Siteimprove, where my topic was about how in the digital world, accessibility is a choice for companies and institutions. But what does that mean and where are we today in regards to accessibility with both public and privately owned websites? So definately some discussions will take place there, and we will also have an interview with Gleb Zevkov CEO of Voxmate and Pavel will be handling that interview for us. Voxmate is a self voiced launcher with many audio first interfaces for services like YouTube, Reddit and Telegram and some of their own apps as well. So we have a jam packed show for you guys, but let's start up with the news.
(Mario) Neeeeews!
(Hlynur) And we have the jingle there, I guess?
(Mario) Yes, we do.
(Hlynur) Ok.
Accessibility in the news. Accessibility in the news.
European Commission survey on digital accessibility (Hlynur) Ongoing European Commission survey, where the objective is to seek feedback to improve public sector websites and mobile apps accessibility. We of course, know that since June 2021, all public sector websites and mobile apps in the EU have the legal obligation to be accessible to people with disabilities. The last step and the step now is to just see how it's going and they are searching to civilians, especially those with disabilities, but also businesses, online platforms, academics and more, just to kind of. Yeah, in real world, just let them know how you feel things are going. It has been open since June 23rd and everyone can deliver until the 25th of October.
(Mario) So there is still some time left.
(Hlynur) There are still some time left, so please, we ask all to share their opinions. A nice feature that the online consultation will have itself. Of course, it will be accessible to screen readers and translated to all EU official languages and available in a shorter, easy to read version for people with cognitive disabilities as well. So, a nice touch.
(Mario) Mm-hmm.
(Tanja) Yes, it is important to give feedback because the results of the this consultation will surely be good input for future policy initiatives and revision of the Web Accessibility Directive. So please take some time and fill out this survey. It is important.
(Hlynur) Agreed. Agreed.
(Pawel) Yeah, I also think it's a good opportunity if you feel that all that the EU does is too little. If you think that all these directives and acts are not enough and that basically nothing is changing, it's also a good way to voice that, because you see somebody seems to care and somebody seems to at least issue the surveys and somebody wants to make these publications. So let your voice be heard and write to them, even if you feel completely dissatisfied that you think this is not enough and you think that it looks nice on paper, but in reality, nothing has changed or very little has changed. Maybe differs from country to country. Some countries take this EU initiatives more seriously, some a little bit less. But well, this is your space to do it and you can do it in your own language. So it's also a good opportunity to let them know what you think.
(Mario) Yeah, I would compare those surveys, as you know, the same obligation for voting. I mean, yes, in some countries it's obligatory. In some countries it's not obligatory. But if you do it, you're going to change the global picture. And that's what people with disabilities eventually can do, because after you sign up those surveys, there are people who are going to read this information, and some things probably will change. So, yeah, go ahead and do it.
(Hlynur) Yeah, hopefully to the better.
Blizzard accessibility game (Hlynur) So a mob that allows blind players to enjoy the popular card battle game by Blizzard
Hearthstone. Pawel, that is something that you came up with.
(Pawel) Yes, and I'll try to explain the best I can.
(Hlynur) Elaborate
(Pawel) So, Hearthstone is, if you know, if you heard of World of Warcraft, it's a very popular game. A lot of my colleagues, my school friends used to play it back in the day, and I think a lot of people still do it.
(Hlynur) I’ve heard, but never played.
(Pawel) Yeah, exactly. It's one of these games, like many games for blind people, but not with this one. In World of Warcraft, you have this whole world fantasy world of different races like, I guess there are elves, dwarfs, humans, of course, and other fantastic creatures. And you can of course, develop your character there and do a lot of things, but Hearthstone is this in miniature so you have all the characters from World of Warcraft, but this is a card battle game, so it means you start with some basic cards. You build your character and your character has some cards. Each card is a sort of move that you can make. It's an attack or defence or whatever. It's a bit like playing Uno, except the cards are very powerful and they inflict damage or they heal you or they give you some advantage over your opponent. And your goal is basically to overpower your opponents with your cards or overpower their set with your set. And these are very popular kinds of games, and they are also very accessible to the blind because you don't need to make any moves. You don't wield a sword and you don't jab it at your opponent. You just pick a card, and this card already does the whole job. So depending on what card you pick, so strong is or so weak is your move. And surprisingly, very few of this game seem to be accessible, even though technically they seem quite easy to be done and Hearthstone is one of the most popular, it's so popular in fact, that it's being played at international gaming competitions, so you could actually become an e-gamer and playing this alone.
(Hlynur) Mario there's your chance.
(Mario) What, For another job position as a card gamer?
(Hlynur) No, to be a European champion, for example.
(Mario) No thanks.
(All laughing)
(Pawel) Ok.
(Mario) That's for, that's for Pawel, man.
(Pawel) I don't actually play as much, but I have a lot of friends who do and I find out about these things. And this is a very big deal because, as I said, the game is very popular. There was already a game before that was also accessible by using mods. It's called Slay the Spire. It's an indie game, so it's not so popular or at least as popular as Hearthstone. But it's still, I know some people who aren't blind and who know this game. It's somewhere on Steam, and it was also quite playable. You could just use some commands on or later even actually navigate with your arrow keys and you could play it. And now we have a mod that actually makes Hearthstone accessible. All the installation steps are provided on the page that we'll link to in our show notes, but once you get it running, you should be able to navigate the menus and complete a couple of the campaigns there. It's not fully done yet, it's constantly developing, and I think the multiplayer mode isn't accessible yet. But this is definitely the plan and I believe if the author keeps on going, we will have a really nice piece of gaming that we could do with our sighted family and friends in due time. It's also quite interesting to play because it has a dubbing in, I think most languages. Definitely. I heard there is really well done dubbing in Polish. So apart from basically playing another card and another card, another card, you will hear some dialogues that are very well narrated and acted out and the cards themselves. There are plenty of cards, very extended offering where you can also combine this card somehow, and they will produce different results if you do. So it's a very complex game. It's not just picking a card and playing it, and it's gone. You actually can plan strategically while fighting your opponents, and you can go pretty far with this world. It's quite big and there are updates coming up with new characters and new cards, and new moves that you can take. So it's definitely something that will be developed and it's good to keep a watch on it. This brings me to the point where I actually see that many games become accessible thanks to modding. Basically, modding is usually done to introduce some new characters or to make something that already is in the game, look a bit different or sound a bit different. Or also to build in some functions that weren't there, they were a bit like plugins. But I see that also the game developers usually allow the votes because they want the players to be creative to. But I also see that the mods have started to being used as a means of accessible housing the games. And I think it's great because if a company doesn't feel the responsibility to make their games accessible, at least somebody who does can take up from there and create a mod. And I have heard of so many examples. I can think of three or four games right now, which will become or are becoming accessible because of modding and the results are really great. Like somebody is really thinking there, contacting the blind players, asking what they need, what are the challenges and testing it afterwards and so on. And because of this, we start to be included in the gaming. It's not going probably as fast as we would like to, but it's definitely not stale. Something is happening in there, and I'm really happy to see that maybe I don't know in 5, 10 years I will just come to my friend's house and we will have a nice PlayStation party playing something.
(Hlynur) And we have, I mean, just look at like The Last of Us. I mean, a huge game changer there in in accessibility for what, Playstation?
(Pawel) Yeah. Exactly, so you're thinking this and then actually there is this nice Web page now that I think about it. Can I play that dot com? They usually do like accessibility oriented reviews of games that are coming out, and they also interview the studios that make these games to see what kind of accessibility is implemented there. Who can exactly play which game. Mostly, it's sadly concentrated on partially sighted people and other disabilities because it's obviously easier to programme for these target groups. But from time to time, you're very likely to come across some heads up that there is a new game available for the blind as well.
(Pawel) We will link that page in the show notes as well. Yes. Can I play that.com.
(Mario) Sounds, sounds geeky,
(Pawel and Hlynur laughing)
(Hlynur) But still, still not. What I kind of liked about this. They take you through the whole step, it’s not just some mod that they do to make the game just accessible. They kind of take you from the start as a beginner, they take you through the tutorials step by step, levelling up and accessible all the way. They have on the page that we're linking to as well those six pointers just from the beginning. And I think it's a, it's a nice project. I really do.
(Mario) Jesus, man, I'm really becoming old. I remember at the time when I was lot into the gaming and like audio games when they started to emerge. But that was like I was in my early 20’s. And now it's like, Yeah, well, OK.
(Pawel)I think the meaning of gaming has changed too, because it used to be entertainment for geeks so like your parents would tell you, what are you doing playing these stupid games all day long? You would go to study otherwise or something. Get your lessons. And now it's a sport. It's a legitimate sport art that people are playing and actually becoming professional at. It's also a nice way to tell a story because you can watch a film, you can watch the TV series, you can read the book, you can listen to radio drama, but you can also play a game and learn about, I don't know, the history of Europe or the world or, you know.
(Mario) I agree they can be educational.
(Pawel) Mm-hmm.
(Mario) There's no doubt about them. But yeah.
(Hlynur) I would never, never be able to thank Football Manager enough for initially teaching me English. I think most of my initial English I learned through the Football Manager PC games.
(Mario) Is it something like FIFA or whatever?
(Hlynur) Yeah, but much calmer. So you are like the manager, so you kind of choose the team, choose to line up, buy and sell and renegotiate. So it's none of the like, oh, hurry up, press that button, shoot. None of that. So just kind of, it's probably the best waste of time I've ever tried in my life.
(Mario) Ok, so that's where you trained your skills for your other profession. Ok. Ok.
(Hlynur) Yeah, yeah, totally. Totally.
(Pawel) And there is Hat-trick, which is also a Web based Football manager, and this is as far as I know, accessible. So if you're blind and you would like to manage some fictitious football team, you can do this too.
(Hlynur) Yeah, I already tried it with the football manager and that was not exactly accessible at all, even though I think it's around, what, two children ago, the last time, I had some time to actually play video games.
(Pawel) Yeah, now, but it's good that we are included in this as well, it's important not to fall behind socially.
(Mario) No, no, I absolutely agree. I was just, you know, saying from my perspective,
(Pawel) Yeah, sure, sure.
(Hlynur) And we are moving in the right direction.
Yeah, yeah. I think
(Hlynur) And Mario will be playing in a few years time.
(Mario) Probably with some more instruments, though.
(Hlynur) Yeah. Yeah. Perhaps.
Sunu app update (Hlynur) But Mario, you have also some news for us with the Sunu app.
(Mario) Yes, the thing is that, at least from the Android side, there was a long, long silence of not getting the updates for the Android users of the Sunu app. And then we started getting the updates for the last, uh, let's say, three weeks. So right now, the app should be kind of by the features, the same as the iOS app. And if you look into the features of the app, you can see that these bottom screen contains little more tabs, and all of those tabs have some more features and they make they make sense like they improved. They added some extra customisations for the sonar, for the angles. And for that, you can also configure how do you want your Sunu to be used like which preferred model you want to have. So for instance, if you want to have like the sonar and the compass at start-up or you want to have something else from their feature, you can now configure what you want and select it with the secondary button, so not the home button, but the second one for the sonar. What do you want to use which of the, let's say, sub apps. However, uh, I had, uh, very weird situation with my Sunu band until I didn't discover what's happening. I thought that my Sunu band had died and why it happened. Well, because. I had the update and my Sunu band was discharged for a few weeks, so I charged it and I wanted to get it up and running, then I get the notification that there is a new update which happens from time to time. There is a new update for the Sunu band itself, and it asked me, do I want to install the update? So I said yes. And then it went to upload the update and after it would upload to Sunu band, would die like completely. It would not react. There was there was no reaction to the tabs. Nothing and even the resetting of the Sunu band didn't help, and I was like, what the hell is happening? So I was plugging and unplugging from the charger, trying this and that. And after some time it would come back and then I would try again, and it would, it would happen again. Unti lI did bring the Sunu band to one of my colleagues at work who is also using it. But he is the iPhone user. So I ask him, Could you just connect the Sunu band to your phone? And that we can see what's going on. And he connected just right away and it was running fine. And so then I said, OK, well, what's happening? I'm going to uninstall the app and reinstall it again. So after I uninstalled the app, the Sunu band started behaving normally. And then I discovered like, Oh, this is not the app thing. It's the Bluetooth related thing. And sometimes it happens if you are on Android 11 and you want to connect to some other Bluetooth device, sometimes you are not able to connect properly and you need to turn off your Bluetooth on your phone and turn it on again. And after you turn it on again, everything runs as normal as it can be. So, yes, it was the Android and Bluetooth thing related. Fortunately, nothing, nothing wrong with my shoulder, and now it's running just fine. So it's OK if you have if you're on the Android side and you're using Sunu, yeah, make sure that first you try to turn off your Bluetooth. And turn it off, turn it on again, and then you should be free to go.
(Hlynur) And the moral of this story is that patience is a virtue.
(Mario) Yeah, probably.
(Hlynur) Were there any new features in this update as well?
(Tanja) Did you did you receive, Mario, the Sunu Academy, because this was one of the features, well, one of the updates that I received. So now you have modules for all the features in the Sunu band, even before you run it, you can go through all of that through the application.
(Mario) Yes. Yes, yes. Yes, it's it's there. It's good for the new users.
(Tanja) I think it's much more detailed from what it was before.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) Before it was rather basic instructions. Now it's much more detailed and I think it's important because you want to be safe when you walk with the Sunu band.
(Mario) Sure.
(Hlynur) That's the whole point of it, right?
(Mario) Yeah. Especially because the learning curve for that…
(Tanja) It takes a bit of time.
(Mario) Yeah, it takes some time, even though I really think that it's a very good gadget. But if you don't learn how to use it properly, you can get confused very quickly and then people can start saying the device sucks and that it's not doing what's supposed to do. But no, everything is fine, but you really need to spend some time with it.
(Hlynur) I see, there were some new navigation features like Where am I, places, search, categories, my favorites and street pointer.
(Mario) Yeah, that's also being added. Although those features were coming like gradually. They started appearing in, you know, each update had something. So but right now, they kind of grouped them and it looks much more polished, let's say like that.
(Tanja) And they partnered with Lazarillo.
(Mario) Yes. This is something that I’m really looking forward.
(Tanja) Me too.
(Mario) Because maybe for the last two years, two and a half years, from my point of view, Lazarillo is the app that I'm using the most from the navigational apps. So now since Sunu and Lazarillo made a partnership, Yeah, now you can use Lazarillo from the Sunu itself by going to this navigation tab. And then when you use it with Lazarillo it's giving you vibrational instructions as well, like where are you facing what's, what's on which side and et cetera, et cetera. So that's also something that didn't exist before.
(Hlynur) Anything else you would like to add before we move on?
(Tanja and Mario) No.
Gadgets (Hlynur) So next up are the gadgets.
JBL bluetooth and wi-fi speaker (Pawel) Ok, so there is something I got because it's my birthday coming, and I've thought for a while now I haven't had a Bluetooth speaker because my previous one, which was quite a cheap one actually from some company that isn’t very well known. I guess it's basically stopped working. So I thought, I'll go for something that is more known. And after searching wide and far, I came up with the idea of getting myself a JBL Link Portable which is, of course, a Bluetooth speaker, but it's also a WiFi enabled speaker and it's Google Home compatible. So from the start, you can turn on the Voice Assistant on it. Of course, the Google one. And it also supports both Chromecast and AirPlay. So no matter what device you have, if you are an Apple user or Android user, you can stream directly to the speaker from the apps that support it. And yeah, it was an interesting experience. I set it up by myself, everything was pretty clear from the start, and now it's here next to me and I'll try to turn it on. It's pretty much work similarly to all this Google Home speakers. You set it up and it starts using the assistance straight away. I tried to play some music with it so far, but sadly I don't have any Spotify or YouTube music subscription, so I could only play some YouTube music stations, they are called, like radio stations made by other people, which is the only thing you can do for free.
(Speaker beeps)
(Pawel) There it goes.
(Speaker) By the way, the mic is off right now. To turn it back on, press the button that controls the microphone.
(Pawel) Yeah, exactly, I keep my microphone muted because, well, I don't want Google to listen to me all the time. And I must say I quite liked the sound of it from the start, even though I just had limited capabilities to play music. I also tried calling somebody on Duo, and this is a feature I really, really liked. I didn't think I would need something like this, but now I feel like I have a landline phone because there is just the speaker standing here and people can reach me anytime on Duo and I can just pick it up on the speaker. It's almost like I had an actual phone at home.
(Mario) No, this is this is one of the things which I'm also using with my Google Duo quite often. And it's it's really, really handy, especially because I don't know how it is with your JBL, but Duo has various sets of mikes which are really catching up the noise. I mean, your voice from quite far away so you can be moving around your room and you would still be heard enough from the other side. So yes.
(Pawel) I think, yes, I think, I don't know how many microphones the JBL has, but what my friend told me when we spoke was definitely that he could hear me well. He could hear me with very high quality for a speaker and he could hear me. I don't know if as well, but definitely he could hear me from some distance apart and he could notice that there was some echo, as you probably can, but that's the fault of the room. And other than that, we were talking for a bit, for a couple of good minutes before we disconnected and I was basically going around my room and he could hear me all the time. He never complained, like, what did you say, nothing like that. So it's really good and I really liked it and he called me back and I could pick it up as well. The thing it suddenly somehow doesn't want to do, and I don't know why I think it’s some political stuff between Google and JBL and TuneIn. I can't play any radio stations by Google Assistant.
(Mario) Like none of them or some of them?
(Pawel) None of them. It's whenever I say play and it comes the name of the station. And even if I say with TuneIn or without TuneIn, it doesn't matter. He will try to play stuff from YouTube Music as if TuneIn wasn't there.
(Hlynur) So if you say play the radio, it just gives a command directly to YoutTube.
(Pawel) Yes, this AR. It tells me that YouTube TuneIn doesn't support playlists, but if I try to ask it like, could you play some radio? It will basically tell me all the help page for TuneIn. So it sort of has it there, but it doesn't react to any of my radio requests.
(Mario)I don't know what's going on with the TuneIn anyways, because what I noticed on the home device. Is that it seems like that the devices which are supporting the tuning have like TuneIn free version.
(Pawel) Mm hmm.
(Mario) And it seems that TuneIn, for whatever reason, started making some changes or whatever. I would say maybe these are also the bugs, I don't know, but what I'm currently seeing with, for example, a few Croatian stations is the fact that the same station will play on my tuning on the phone, but. If I give the same comment to the home device, it will announce that the station is playing, but I would never be able to hear the station. And you can check out if this is happening when you start, for example, you start streaming the station from your home. No, from here from your phone, I'm sorry.
(Pawel) Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
(Mario) And then. If you, if the station starts playing on your phone, you can press the cast button.
(Pawel) Yes. that works.
(Mario) If the station starts, if the station starts casting, then it is 90 percent chance that it will work on the home, but there are situations when you press cast and nothing happens. And this is the situation, for example, with those few stations which I am encountering that they start playing normally on the phone. But when I press the cast button, I just hear the silence on the home device.
(Pawel) Ok, I heard my station fine when I casted it, and this is the thing that I wanted to come to. I Googled this a little bit, and it seems like people are having these problems too. And Google even knows about it, and Google is recommending as a workaround to cut from your phone. But that's not the point.
(Mario) Yeah, sure. That doesn't make sense to have the speaker then. Right?
(Pawel) Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's it's comfortable to have it casting. I mean, good for you. You can use your screen reader do anything else on the phone, but you have to keep the app open at all times and it's stupid.
(Mario) And it's draining your phone's battery.
(Pawel) That too. Yeah. And so I don't know. I can't do this, but I guess it could work with the with the podcasts, I hope.
(Speaker) The mic’s back on.
(Pawel) Ok, Google Play the latest episode of the EBU Access Cast podcast.
(Speaker) Okay. Here's the latest episode of EBU Access Cast EBU Access Cast 32, playing on Google Podcasts.
(Speaker playing) This programme is financially supported by the European Commission.
(Pawel) Ok, Google, stop. Ok, there we go
(Hlynur) And then to the most important question of all, how is the bass?
(Mario) Bass!
(Pawel) Didn't you hear it? I thought it came through in the recording.
(Hlynur) I think it sounded good to me, though.
(Pawel) Yeah, that's why I picked the podcast because we have a nice intro for testing speakers. (laughing) Anyway, yeah, I'm quite satisfied. I wasn't, let's say, courageous enough yet to turn it up very loud because I also mind my neighbours quiet and peace and my flatmate too. So I haven't really gone really to do 100 percent with it, but I had the chance to play with similar speakers, also from JBL at the MediaMarkt last weekend, and they can be quite loud. I think it will get the party started if you need to.
(Mario) And it's a stereo set of speakers, I suppose.
(Pawel) Sadly, no. It's one mono speaker, sadly, but it has this live… How is it called 360 degrees?
(Hlynur) It is 360 degrees so you can basically place it anywhere. I have a Samsung 360 degree speaker at home also and I don't mind that it's not a stereo.
(Pawel) Yeah, for music, it's not as important. And mostly, I think I'll be listening to either music or spoken word on this. So I was able… I was ready to sacrifice the stereo.
(Mario) But if it's not the stereo speaker, why didn't you go for the home device?
(Pawel) Ah, it was actually funny coincidence that I picked this one. It turned out that because of where I'm working right now, I am eligible for some discounts with some shops and there you can only pick from the brands that they have. And initially, I just wanted a Bluetooth speaker.
I didn't think I would need a smart speaker. I just thought, Well, I primarily need a Bluetooth speaker. So if I go somewhere or I just want to play some music a bit louder than my phone speakers or just listen to something in the background, I will need this. And then I started looking at what JBL has, and they had regular speakers. They had speakers with DAB radio receivers with the digital radio receivers, But consulting some friends of mine who know their stuff. It turned out that these receivers aren't very good, so I just dropped the idea and then I saw this portable link and it wasn't much more expensive than the flip. Flip is like a one hundred euro speaker. It's a standard speaker. I think mostly you will get this if you want to just have a Bluetooth speaker for just listening at home or parties or anything. And this wasn't much more expensive than that with the discount that I had, and it had the smart functions. So I thought, OK, if I can have both and it's not so much more expensive, why not go for this? And I just was initially thinking, Well, I only need the Google Cast and the Chromecast and AirPlay. That's nice that it's there because then I can just cast anything, anywhere around the house. But then I also saw Google Assistant and I started playing with the calling, with the weather, with other things, and I'm like, OK, I will not keep it on all the time, but it's useful. It's there. If I have it, it's good to have it, and I'm quite satisfied with the quality here and I can also remove it from the docking station. I can totally run it on battery and take it anywhere with me in the backpack. It's not that big and turn it on somewhere at the lake and just keep playing some nice music. So I think it's both in one and I quite like this approach.
(Hlynur) Sounds like a happy birthday to me.
(Pawel) Yeah, I'm satisfied. I just need a bit more time to play with it still. But I, for example, don't know what the docking station is for. I thought it's for charging, but I don't see any cables going into it or from it, so I don't know how to operate.
(Hlynur) It looked like from the pictures I saw on the website that it was for charging.
(Pawel) I thought so too, but the cable part is on the front of the speaker.
And I can put the Usb in there and the USB C, by the way, and I don't see where I could put the other end, and I don't see where I could put the power cord. So I still have to figure it out. And suddenly the manual is mostly pictures.
(Mario) So that's what I wanted to ask. Have you checked the manual?
(Pawel) Yes, I have, and it's mostly pictures from what I could gather. So I'll just have to ask somebody to explain it to me.
(Mario) You know, sometimes when you encounter such things with hardware, what might help is to get through few reviews on some websites, because those reviews go through all the details and they can mention these kind of features there, so you can get the clue.
(Pawel) You're right, you're right.
(Mario) I had the same situation. I mean, it's a similar situation with the one of my very small Bluetooth Guitar Practise amps, which I purchased last year, which is also having its… OK, it's quite simple to use, but still there are some features which you need to press and in order to get to different functions. And the manual from that amp was completely in pictures or in some spoken words, but nothing, nothing understandable for a screen readers so I watched some YouTube reviews and then one of the guys explained all the features, what I need to do. And I was like, Ah, OK,
(Hlynur) Reading a bit here. It says that it is a charging station. The bottom of it. But of course, that will need to be plugged in.
(Pawel) Aham.
(Hlynur) I am of course not sure, but sometimes things do not work while they're charging. So if it's being charged on top of the docking charging station, then it might not be able to work while it's there. But you should be able to. You should be able to charge it with the bottom of it.
(Pawel) The bottom at the bottom, I have like a round field, it's like a circle in a circle.
Aaaah! you know what? I think I see it. There is a tiny teensy Usb port at one of the walls of the circle in the middle.
(Mario with a low voice) Yes, dear listeners, this is what's happening when you give a gadget to the blind person.
(Everyone laughs)
(Pawel) Yes.
(Hlynur) Merry Christmas.
(Pawel) Good. I play with this some more. And I also haven't paired it in Bluetooth mode yet, so that's something also I'll have to explore. But what I have tried, and this is also quite a nice tip. If you own anything that supports Chromecast, not just the JBL, there is a piece of software. Actually, it turns out there are two pieces of software. I just found one yesterday, the day before, that lets you stream anything you want over Google Cast the Chromecast, if you will, from your PC with Windows and the first one is called Desktop Chromecast audio streamer, I think. I think that's how it's called - Desktop audio streamer, simply. That's how it's registered on my Start menu. It's a Windows software. It's accessible and there you can pick any sound card you have on your system, Be it input or output, so you can even use your microphone or mixer, anything, and you can stream any sound that comes through it onto your Google compatible speakers. So I could choose my JBL easily and I could stream. I use the virtual audio cable, which is a virtual sound card for streaming from one software to another. And I just used it as an empty sound card to stream the Fubar Music or audiobook. I was playing with the Fubar 2000 onto my speaker and it worked. It had a bit of a delay, sadly, but it worked in the end. And I must say I'm very happy it did because now I only my imagination limits me. I can play radio, I can play anything from the web, I can play any music, just anything I want, I can play on. The speaker wouldn't use it for meetings or for webinars or for anything where I need to interact, because the delay is quite severe, it's a couple of seconds, actually. So it's not good for talking with people, for example, but at least if there is any content, I want to listen anywhere in my house. As long as my Wi-fi connexion keeps up, I can just stream it. And it's very comfortable. There is also a second software called Music Cluster, which lets you also stream the sound of your sound card. Sadly, you cannot choose which one, so probably the default one. But also any music file you give it, any playlist you give it, or any URL. So I suppose radio or any audio stream you give it. So there are tools, and this Music Cluster is especially quite it's neat because it just sits in your system tray. And whenever you need to cast something, you just go to your system tray, pick the icon, go to the menu. You choose the speaker, you choose the thing you want to play, and off it goes. So there is software to do this, and I also saw that there is something for Mac. And of course, there is plenty of apps you can stream from on your iOS or Android device. So this kind of speaker is really useful, and I thought I wouldn't need it, and I didn't think I would buy a Wi-Fi enabled speaker by chance. But I came across this model and now I don't regret it.
(Mario) There we go. Dj Pawel in action.
(Pawel) Yes.
(Everyone laughs)
(Pawel) Now I just need a mixer.
Well, Christmas is…
(Tanja) That’s the next gadget.
(Everyone laughs)
(Hlynur) Looking forward to hear about that in the next episode.
(Mario) Oh yeah, Christmas is coming soon.
(Hlynur) Yeah.
(Mario) Or Black Friday.
(Pawel) Mm hmm.
Minimize to tray app (Hlynur) Tanja, you had something to share as well, didn't you?
(Tanja) Yes, actually, I had the need to minimise some windows while working since this option was not available inside these programmes.
(Mario) You needed to minimise some windows?
(Tanja) Some windows. And some programs.
(Mario) Aha.
(Tanja) So I found Minimize to Tray which does what the name says. It minimises programmes by pressing a shortcut. The shortcut is just alt F1 to minimise a programme, and you can retrieve it by pressing alt F2. It is a portable programme, so it doesn't start automatically. You have to start it every time. But what I did, I put a shortcut on my desktop, so if I need it, I just activate it and then I need to use those shortcuts. So it's. So it’s simple and it works.
And, actually it is sad that Windows already as operating system doesn't provide this option because it's very handy to have programmes in the System tray.
(Mario) Yeah, it is.
(Tanja) but well.
(Pawel) There was also NVDA plug in. I don't know if you tried it, the Windows Wizard or something like this. When a wizard lets you hide any window, you have open into a slot. So if you press, I think it's NVDA Control 1 or something, then you hide the currently focussed window in slot number one and then you can hide it with the same shortcut and you have unlimited stacks of these windows so you can keep hiding and hiding.
(Tanja) Ok, good to know. Even though I'm always changing screen readers all the time because some screen readers read something, some other read other things, like NVDA reads better something, JAWS some other programmes. So in my case wouldn’t work, but is good to know.
(Pawel) Mm hmm.
(Hlynur) But what about us who have nothing to hide?
(Tanja) Then you have all the windows shown.
(Mario) Yeah, you're exposed then.
(Hlynur) Yeah, pretty much.
(Hlynur) So. Thanks, guys. Some lovely gadgets. And again, we're looking forward to hearing about Pavel's mixer on the next episode.
(Pawel laughing)
Tweesecake (Hlynur) Next one is a thing that I personally I Don't use a lot of myself, but I do know and I have heard that the Twitter hasn't always exactly been an accessible friend. We were taking a look at this thing called Tweesecake. Mario, not cheesecake actually.
(Mario with disappointed voice) Aaah.
(Hlynur) Pawel you were taking a closer look at what this does. I can see it's kind of a way to be able to use keyboard commands on what Twitter and Telegram, even though I don't use Telegram myself, navigate file systems and much more.
(Pawel) Yeah, probably a lot of our completely blind listeners will know this Twitter client fashion that is still very much the standard that your favourite Twitter client is the client where you turn on the programme, the keyboard commands are there, and the only thing you ever get is a feedback from your screen reader so you can handle all of the Twitter operations without ever leaving any of your existing windows. You can be in Word and reading something. You can be on the web browsing something and you just or that keyboard command and you are reading 2 or 3 further Tweets and replying to one and writing a new one on your own. We did use even TWBlue and I think the cube at some point, even on the EBU Access Cast Twitter account. It's just so easy to manage that way. And, well, Tweesecake started off as another one of these clients. We also had Quinter in the last month or two and. Tweesecake started out like this as well, but then the author decided, you can do so much more with this concept. You don't have to limit yourself to yet another Twitter client, which will make probably no difference because there are so many of them. You can create new interfaces for new things. And so he, apart from Twitter, he also made a Telegram client, a File Explorer in which you can of course, browse files, copy paste, move around. It's quite easy. You can. If you remember the Twitter buffers, you had buffer for the home timeline. You had the buffer for dimensions for direct messages. In the Explorer, you have a buffer for each folder that you open for all your hard drives, and there is also a buffer for shortcuts where you can place all your favourite Folders and files a bit like your desktop, really.
(Hlynur) Hmm.
(Pawel) And the good thing about it also is that you can open text files in it, so you can. Open a text file in a separate buffer and you can read invisibly line by line. What is there in the file? It's not very comfortable for books, I guess, but for tiny notes or for documentation or change logs, things like that. It's actually quite neat. I, for example, Read the theTweesecake changelog. You can also preview multimedia files, which is quite practical for. Let's say you have a bunch of short files like some ringtones, notifications or some samples. You would like to use some sound effects and you quickly want to browse them. You go over the files and just press one shortcut and anyplace. And it's quite interesting that it gets it gets all these functions because it expands further. You have a radio feature in there as well where you can just search for a radio station, add it to your favourites and play. It straight from this invisible interface. So this is also quite practical. You just have your radio in the background. You can start and stop it or find a new station. You can check what song is playing right now, but will I use the most is the Telegram feature because it also has a Telegram interface, and this is really my favourite way to communicate now because you just switch over to the Telegram session. It's still invisible. You navigate through all your chats or if you want to, you can open your contacts and there you see your contacts sorted by last online parameter and you just pick one person. You open the buffer with the chat and or you don't even have to open the chat. You just press Windows Alt N and you type the message. You press enter and it's gone. It was sent. Everything is gone. There is no window. The job is done. You can get on with your things. And then when somebody responds, you just find the chat again and or even leave it open the buffer with the individual chat and you just navigate up Windows alt up arrow, Windows alt up arrow and you can read the message. You can listen to it. If it's a voice message, you can download the file. It's a file that somebody sent you. And with Telegram offering all this groups, channels and bots, this has a really great potential because especially the bots, they let you exchange files with different services. They let you check on different things. I even found an Android app where you can register for yourself, a bot to exchange your SMS messages so you can even, buy this sort of gateway, send and receive your SMS messages from an invisible interface on your PC. And I think this is pretty great. The implications are countless. Again, your imagination chooses, and I'm also quite curious to see what is going to happen to this in the future. Like, what kind of sessions are we going to have supported in the next releases? The authors have some ideas. I think what they're considering right now is Mastodon, which is this decentralised Twitter where you can have your own server and your own instance and you choose with which other servers you want to be in touch. I think they also thought of an email Client. That would be interesting, too, especially for all this mailing lists with lots of messages on them.
(Hlynur) Yeah, it would be.
(Pawel) And I think they want to expand more into the player scene. So at least to the point where you can comfortably listen to audiobooks. That's what I heard so far. People have been also asking about possibly opening some kind of API for developers to code their own sessions, and the authors said they wouldn't say no, but they have to think it through, how to best approach it. And yeah, basically you you have a lot of possibilities now. There is also an ability to open a window like a physical Ui window where you can navigate with your regular screen reader commands. This is especially handy for people who use braille I suppose, but maybe not only maybe some people just prefer a simple, window based interface. You have some more windows to hide. And yes, I'm quite curious to see how it develops. For now, it's free of charge, but the authors don't hide it from us that it will be paid in the future. And I sort of see why, because if they want to offer different services, especially a lot of services that have require access to paid API, I guess you will need at some point to have your costs returned. And also you probably like to have your time recovered in money if you're developing such a complex, complex piece of software. So I sort of see why they want to go this way. I hope it will be very expensive. They mentioned they want to keep it below five dollars or something or five euros. I think they said five dollars, although one of the developers is from the U.k., as far as I know. But well, let's not speculate. Let's wait and see what happens. At any rate, I keep my fingers crossed. And I don't know, has anyone else of you maybe Tanja or Mario? Have you tried it yet or…?
(Mario) No.
(Tanja) Actually, not because I'm not using Telegram and for Twitter… if I'm using, because last period I was not really checking Twitter much. But if I'm using it, then I'm using the website.
(Pawel) Ok.
(Tanja) Yeah.
(Pawel) I hope it will develop to the point where it will offer something interesting for you as well, because I think it has potential this kind of interface. And now let's see what happens.
(Hlynur) Mm hmm. Definitely.
Get Covid Pass (Hlynur) And I'm guessing you all have your COVID passes up and running and ready to go. (Mario) Yes, we do.
(Pawel) Mhm.
(Tanja) Yeah.
(Hlynur) Because there is this service, getcovidpass.eu, which allows you to create a digital copy of your COVID certificates and safely place it in your phone wallet. What did you guys think of this? This is not an official EU operation of any kind. This is the third party invention.
(Pawel) Yes, but it's made by a company in the Czech Republic that specialises in generating passes like this four mobile Wallets. And apparently, this company is providing services for insurance companies. They said AXA, they said Allianz, so really big names on the market.
(Hlynur) Yeah, major players. Yeah.
(Pawel) And I guess if you trust them and the suppliers they choose, you can also trust this service. Yeah, but ultimately, it's it's your choice, what you do. I was also hesitant at the beginning, but eventually I tried it and I'm really happy I did. I.
(Mario) Actually, I wanted to say that I'm really happy that I found out about this because it seemed at the end of the day that this is the most accessible solution so far. So if you go back into our previous episode, you will remember that we talked about various Pdf readers for our smartphones where we could see our certificates. Well, it turned out that in practical situation, it's not working as it's supposed to. So even if you would open the certificate in the Google Drive as we suggested or Chromebooks, PDF, UI or whatever, it would still be small and it would still need to be zoomed. And I had a practical situations that people on the checking points had troubles with getting it on my screen and et cetera, et cetera. Which wasn't the case with this Covid pass EU. First of all, the whole experience… I initiated the whole experience from my phone and that was great because you can do all the stuff from the browser. Everything is 100 percent accessible and eat at the end when you get your COVID pass ready for your wallet, in my case, it was a Google Wallet for Android. It's accessible and it's visible right away when you click on the… Basically your card that gets imported into the wallet. So it's really, really it's reasonable one hundred percent and people can scan it and you are ready to go if your pass is valid. I found it the best choice so far because it turned out to be that every country has their own kind of system of generating those PDF files. And for example, I found out that in Croatia, people are able to import their PDF certificates into the Croatian version of the app, but then they have some passwords, which they need to enter, and that password is only available on their certificates. So, for example, I could not import my Luxembourgish certificate, even though they say it's valid for all EU, but I could not import it into the Croatian app and its whole mess around with, you know, going from country to country. And discovered Get COVID pass, you solve that situation, you know, at the end you get something that's decent for whatever platform you have and as long as you have your basic QR code, which needs to be scanned, you are ready to go.
(Hlynur) Well, I'm not in the EU, actually, but I tried this out with my Icelandic certificate and it worked like a charm, in, like, 2 minutes.
(Pawel) I think it works with EU plus the European Economic Zone area where Iceland is taking part. I think…
(Hlynur) Could be.
(Pawel) Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein…
(Hlynur) Switzerland if I remember correctly.
(Tanja) I think you in Iceland, you also have EU Certificate. I mean, the COVID EU certificate, as far from what I remember from the commission’s website. But for me, it worked perfectly, also with the Apple Wallet. It was fully accessible. I open the page from the mobile phone, uploaded the Pdf on the website, agreed to their privacy and it was just important to the Apple Wallet. And it works and I can see all my data in in the COVID Pass. So it's really accessible and it works.
(Pawel) Same here, I didn't have a PDF, sadly, so I had to ask for help scanning the code of the paper. I guess maybe if I tried it on my own, it would have worked because it's live scanning, it's not taking a photo or anything. It's just you have to point the camera and it has to scan. So maybe I would have had luck, but I didn't Want to bother so much, so I just asked somebody to help me. And it also imported fine. I needed to install this Your Wallet app on Android.
(Mario) Me too.
(Hlynur) Me to.
(Pawel) Which is good for the future because it's compatible with this Apple style passes. Sadly, they aren't very popular in, I Think, neater Poland nor Austria, so I can't get my train tickets in there, which are my tickets for concerts or any events. But I think some airline tickets are available this way too. So it's good to have this app.
(Mario) But my understanding is that you are able to make your own that you're making. So you can scan your whatever you have. Let's say you purchase the card or your ticket and you can scan the ticket from the Wallet app and then it makes the version for the wallet.
(Pawel) Oh, I need to try that.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Pawel) That'll be quite cool, actually.
(Mario) Because there is the option that you… There's the button where it says ed card and then you can basically scan whatever you need to scan and then it's there.
(Pawel) Ok. I quite liked it to that. The whole experience there. And I think it's it's good to keep it that way, as you said, Mario for like full screen operation and anything. It's also quite easy to do, as you said, universal, and you can read all the data, which is also important.
(Mario) But yeah, actually, actually, I just remember the thing that I tried uploading the certificate from the computer and the app said that it has the problem with recognising my certificate which was bizarre. So I said, Well, OK, maybe it's better if I do it for my phone. And eventually it worked fine.
(Tanja) Yes, probably because that process, as soon as you upload the PDF, to convert it to The wallet cannot be done on the desktop.
(Mario) True.
(Tanja) Probably because of that it was stopped or blocked. OK, it makes sense that you do it directly on the mobile phone because anyway, you will use it on the mobile phone.
(Mario) Sure. Yeah.
(Pawel) Yeah, it generates, I think, a tiny file. I think…
(Tanja) Amhm.
(Pawel) This passes have some p, whatever p g, whatever format.
(Hlynur) Yeah. There are two options here in the Your Pass app. You can add a digital pass, which says “Add non payment card in the PK pass format by scanning a QR code or you can digitise a card.” So you digitise your own non payment card, for example, plastic or paper board, so I guess a concert ticket or a library cards or anything like that.
(Mario) Right.
(Pawel)I need to try with something else. Next time I travel, I guess.
(Hlynur) Awesome. So everyone is happy.
(Mario) Yeah. This was great, I really hope that this service stays as long as the Covid stays.
(Hlynur) Yeah.
(Mario) Because so far, this really is solved, the problem that we had and it was I was really looking for something fully digital because I don't want to, you know, drag papers around.
(Hlynur) Yeah, before we were also trying, trying out many different PDF readers just to see which one would open it up with not zoomed in, then just too much work. So it's very good that it is working as it is.
(Mario) Even though I also had one weird situation with my certificate. And it turned out that for whatever reason, iPhones are the best if they have to scan my certificate because if some other Android phones are scanning, I'm not able to get green. (Laughing) So yeah, it's bizarre.
Apple „California Streaming“ 2021 (Hlynur) Talking about Apple, they were hosting an online event on the 14th. Awesome name, though. California streaming. Love that one. So what is now the iPhone 13?
(Mario) That's unlucky number.
(Everyone laughs)
(Hlynur) only if you buy it on a Friday.
(Mario) That's an unlucky number. Those iPhones are going to break.
(Everyone laughs)
(Hlynur) You heard it first here, on the EBU Access Cast.
(Pawel) The 13 gate.
(Hlynur) So, Tanja, what will you be shopping for?
(Tanja) Well, my iPhone X still works well, but from what I read, the iPhone 13 will have a bigger battery, which is maybe something I'm looking forward. There is also a better camera, a smaller notch. I don't know whether this is really of interest to us. Maybe yes. For some applications that use the camera.
(Hlynur) But the price is going down. That is of interest to everyone, I guess.
(Mario) The prices?
(Pawel) Yeah, I think what's happened is that they are dropping the sixty four gigs model altogether. So what happens then is, I think, but I'm not sure to some extent, the capacities will sort of slide at least the 128 should cost more or less as much as the 64 used to cost before. So for now in the US, the iPhone 13 Mini 128 gigs was capped at 700 dollars. I'm just trying to look up how much it will be in euros.
(Tanja) Do you think that the prices will stay just… Because normally in Europe it costs a bit more.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) Always.
(Mario) And now how is the situation with the all chip out shortage.
(Hlynur) Yeah.
(Tanja) Mhm.
(Hlynur) The global prices of aluminium and all those materials going up.
(Mario) I don’t know man.
(Tanja) Mhm.
(Hlynur) I think I've heard that aluminium is going up for around 80 percent increase.
(Mario) Yeehaw!
(Pawel) Oops.
(Hlynur) Yes, ups, definitely ups.
(Pawel) Mm hmm.
(Hlynur) What did you say it was in dollars? 700 US. So that would be around 600 euros.
(Pawel) But converting it, I don't know if it's a good idea because usually they will agree on some different pricing for different regions. Yeah. So I wanted to just look it up. Maybe I'll have it in a bit. But yeah, it's definitely means that the 64 is gone and 128 is now the default cheapest option.
(Hlynur) Ok, so we're getting getting pretty much more for the same if you're going bigger than 32.
(Pawel) hopefully. Hopefully, hopefully, yeah.
But what really made me happy is the fact That apparently the iPhone 13 Mini is getting All the sensors of the 12 Pro Max, so I will really hope there will be a lidar in it.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Pawel) Yes, that would be quite good, because the reason why I thought, I think iPhone 12 mini great phone, but no lidar andlidar, maybe it's maybe not yet, but maybe in the future, quite essential for blind people.
(Mario) Oh yeah, Pawel is going to the architecture. He's going to construct the houses.
(Pawel) Yeah, no. Actually, you already have some apps like the seeing eye, which is able to tell you the distance from objects by using lidar, so it's could be quite a deal breaker in the future. I know we've had this for a year now and there hasn't been a major breakthrough yet with this, but this is already used for some things like that.
So yeah I'm quite curious to see what happens to it, of course. Also the bigger battery, slightly faster CPU. So slightly that they don't compare it even to the older models anymore, they just compare it to the competition.
(Mario) What about the fingerprint sensor? Is it still there on the mini or not?
(Pawel) Good question, I heard that somehow the face ID is gone somewhere on the iPad. Now
(Tanja) I hope they will drop it because it's so annoying with the mask,
(Mario) Even though you have the profile to make the I know that now you have the profile in the face ID That you can make if you have a mask, so it's somehow able to recognise you.
(Hlynur) Or if they choose , I would rather have the world could drop the masks, then
(Mario) Yeah,
(Hlynur) And drop in the face detection.
(Pawel) Anyway, hopefully, anyway, apparently this faster CPU, it has some new AI capabilities on board, and it should be possible to recognise text in real time better and to recognise objects and buildings. So this could be also quite something for us. Also, there is the new Apple Watch series seven, which is a bit bigger, I think, by a millimetre. The screen is bigger by a millimetre, but it's the difference is already big enough that you can apparently, according to Apple, put the whole keyboard on it. So finally, you'll be able to type somehow on the Apple Watch.
(Tanja) Can you imagine typing braille?
(Pawel) I was, yeah, I was wondering about that too. But no, they would have to think of someone one hand system. They tried this with some Android braille keyboards that you split it into two halves and the first you type the first half, then you type the second four four five six dots. I think it's kind of tedious, but I can't think of anything better.
(Hlynur) Maybe we could just go back to Morse.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah. Mm hmm., maybe we could go back to slate and stylus
(Pawel) Dot by dot.
Who knows? We will see what what happens.
(Hlynur) Also, it will be interesting there were a lot of new a lot of news. Let's call gadgets like the word gadgets.
(Pawel) But the impression generally is that not much has changed. And I guess if you look at the 12. The change is not significant, but I think these kind of events or this kind of years where they don't really innovate hard core is good for people who are thinking of get on board. Switch from something different
Because you don't regret like oh, my God. I could have got the cheaper model, which offers so much less or the more expensive model that offers so much more here you just choose. Ok? Maybe if the newer model doesn't offer so much more, really, the older one will still do and it will drop in price.
(Mario) So yeah, so the 2020 SE is even going to get cheaper. So for those of you, those those of you who want to get the iPhone? Well, maybe that's still something to go.
(Tanja) like Mario.
(Mario) Maybe you never know. I'm just waiting for Croatian Siri voice. That's what I said. (Pawel) Oh, I would first wait for VoiceOver the Siri. We don't have Siri in Polish either, although we have a Polish VoiceOver voice and we're still waiting. There is even this, I think web page when Siri will be available in Polish or something like that. And now is Siri available in Polish, but something like that. And if you go there, it just says no, that's the whole point of the web page, And they're going to update it as soon as something new turns up
(Everyone laughs)
(Pawel) And it'll be updated to yes, maybe or maybe never.
(Hlynur) I guess I will not be holding my breath for the Icelandic Siri then. Well, I don't know the.
(Mario) Yeah. Speaking of those Voiceover voices or Vocalizer, their voices, which are being built into the iOS, I really don't get it why Croatian voice is not integrated there because we have it for 5 years, even though it has many quirks, but its Vocalizer as a voice. So. Yeah, why why? Google doesn't integrate Croatian to the list of languages, even though it's funny, because now this is this is really bizarre like Google is able to talk Serbian, if you ask it to to use it in the interpreter mode, it's using this neural Serbian voice, which sounds quite OK. But that neural voice is not available in the offline version for the Google TTS yet.
(Hlynur) Only the online translator.
(Mario) Yep, yep. And Croatian is still who knows where. Yeah. And, you know, at the same time, Croatia is part of the European Union and Serbia is not so.
(Tanja) But I think Google doesn't care aboutEU.
(Mario) Yeah, it seems like that.
(Hlynur) Maybe you should just switch over to Apple and see if they love you more.
(Mario) No, no, not really.
(Hlynur) Oh, OK. But since Mario doesn't seem to be switching over to Apple, then maybe Mario, you're willing to discuss the newest Android 12 beta four release, which is
Official Android 12 Beta 4 release update (Mario) I don't have it
(Hlynur) As though you don't have it, but you might be able to discuss it.
(Mario) I could say
(Hlynur) Different things.
(Mario) Well, it seems for the beginning that, uh, from what I was reading about and further from what I heard from the people who have the beta They really optimised the devices, and it seems faster than the previous version, which is good to see, and it's using much less resources. So it's also people who are like you could you could see that on the Pixel devices. People are having much more battery power than before, which is good.
(Hlynur) Oh, it's always good.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah. However,
(Hlynur) it's like gold.
(Mario) Yeah. However, in regarding to the accessibility information. well, there is not much information about it for now, and I don't think that we will see so much. Even though Google can surprise stuff, I've. Well, I've heard some stuff that are being in the pipeline for Talkback, but TalkBack is Always a kinder surprise. You never know what to expect
(Pawel) Comes out once a year, you mean?
(Mario) Oh yeah, that's that's one of the things. But another thing is that, uh, well, you know, you might get some features that you
Never wanted to have or, you know, some features that work or used to work, no longer work. Yeah,
(Hlynur) usually not as expected.
(Mario) Yeah. or yeah, maybe one of those, maybe some more languages pop up. But for this, I'm kind of very low optimistic. But well, we'll see.
(Hlynur) Yeah, I could see four new features that I find interesting. But again, like you said, Mario, nothing in regards to how accessible it it is or will be, but we have the with the scrolling screenshots. So if you're taking like a multiple screenshot of a web page or anything that doesn't fit entirely into your screen, well, now you will be able to screenshot and yes, scroll it down outside of the range of the screen so you like so you can maybe take one screenshot instead of five or six or seven. So that is something that people have been waiting for of, also the change of the display. I myself have been waiting for this for a couple of years because always when I'm using my phone while lying in bed and turning on to the side, the damn thing, always switch over to landscape. So now they're offering you to use the front camera so it can detect how your face is oriented against the phone So they can lag more in a more smart fashion, know when to when to go to landscape, or change the orientation of the screen because they know how the phone turns. And they also know how what your face is turning as well. The in-app search is something that I find interesting as well. So you can search for things that aren't only apps, but you can search for things that are inside the apps as well, like calendar events, things on your to do list and and many more. No apps have started using this yet, but this definitely sounds like something that will grow popular and in a short time. And privacy is, of course, the new fashion. So you can now see,
(Mario) like always, privacy!
(Hlynur) yeah, privacy. So now you can in a new privacy dashboard, see detailed information in a dashboard and you know what dashboards are like. We have no idea how accessible that will be once we get a look at it.
But you can see how many and which apps have access to your location, camera and microphone in the past 24 hours. You can have more overview of of your your privacy on your mobile phone, which is, I guess, a good thing step in the right direction. But since we are an accessibility podcast, there is not much we can say at this point.
(Mario) Yeah. And you know, keep in mind that both of us are running Samsung devices. So some, Samsung will for sure add some of their features into the there scheme.
(Hlynur) Definitely. Hopefully, if we want to take a look, maybe by the end of this year,
(Mario) maybe, maybe not. Maybe. Yeah, well, I've seen the post that. How it looks so far. All my phone and your phone will get Android 12. So that's good. However, when it will come, nobody knows the earliest what to expect is at the end of the year. However, I'm more looking into the first 3 months of 2022. So, yeah. But yeah, it's a Android 12 is behind the corner, as they say. Yes.
Discussion digital accessibility matters – Siteimprove conference (Hlynur) There was a conference in Iceland held by a company called Site Improve. I don't know if you guys have heard of it before, have you?
(Everyone) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes.
(Hlynur) So we, the Association of the Visually Impaired in Iceland, is in collaboration with Site Improve. Where we are just helping each other out. We're there,
(Mario) you're kind of neighbours know, yes, they're in Finland, Denmark, Finland,
(Tanja) Denmark,
(Hlynur) and they have Icelandic employees in Denmark which who are focussing on the Icelandic market as well. So those are mainly those who we are cooperating with. Yeah. And of course, they are just in business and we are in the business of making Icelandic websites more accessible. So kind of a win win situation for us both. I held a small discussion on the conference and my topic was called Accessibility is a choice. Which means, of course, in the digital world, accessibility is kind of a choice. For companies and institutions, I was talking about what I was meaning behind that, and I was I would like you guys to discuss also because what we have been seeing for the past few years is. that a new app, a new website, a new anything comes out and people have still not started looking at accessibility from the get go and through the whole experience, it kind of feels like. accessibility is still being looked at more like a destination when it should be looked like a journey. If you would. And also because they are having the. European Commission Survey, I think it would be interesting to discuss a bit. Have you guys noticed any changes just If we just talk in general.
(Tanja) a bit a bit of changes, but I think it depends on the country also. I think in the countries where there were some laws on accessibility before it progresses more quickly. But in countries where you didn't have any laws, anything requiring the public sector to have the continent accessible, I think content is quite inaccessible. And what I have noticed is that the first tries to make the content accessible are really basic. What we have seen 20 years ago like increased contrast option on the website and switch To Screen reader mode. But then you switch to Screen reader mode and nothing really changes because then the click here links that are like 20 times per page remain. Click here doesn't change for the Screen reader, so it's it goes really in the wrong direction for for, I think, for the countries where they're just starting with accessibility.
(Hlynur) Just like, as you said, they are just 20 years behind. They were 20 years behind when this thing came into place and they still are.
(Tanja) Yes. But also what I noticed is that, for example, here in Luxembourg, when you report a problem first to the organisation, then Most probably they are. They do not know what you're talking about. And then you report to the accessibility responsible person in the country,
(Mario) It's a service.
(Tanja) Yes. Well, it's a service. So then they they really take it into account and it's looked after. It will be improved in in a shorter or longer period if it is about a public sector. At least this is my experience in in Luxembourg, but I did not have this experience in Croatia, so I believe that also there are different experiences in different countries. But then when we go outside of the public sector, things get worse because then we are still waiting for the European Accessibility Act to enter into force and to be obligatory for them too. because now the Web Accessibility Directive is only for the public sector. But it is true there are new websites, new mobile apps from the public sector that are launched and that are not accessible. And then when you reported, they're just surprised that you're reporting this issue. I think accessibility is not still considered as it should be, but probably it's a it's a long process. I think they also need to include much more testing with users with disabilities because sometimes they see that a very often automated checkers are used only if and that is already considered deep accessibility testing. And I don't think this is complete. It's it's of course, a great tool, but it's not complete. So
(Hlynur) you can't you can't exclude the manual labour.
(Mario) well, for Some people, that's that's something that they wish they never have to do, unfortunately.
(Hlynur) yes we can agree on that.
(Tanja) Unfortunately, yes. But this is a mind set, I guess.
(Hlynur) But it's just Not the case.
(Mario) No, no.
(Tanja) Yes, this is a mind set that has to change. But I think by having the Web accessibility directive, by including people with disabilities, also it will increase the level of discrimination that was up until now, also on the job market for persons with disabilities. Because we expect and we hope that this will increase the possibility for persons with disabilities to get employed, to be involved, to test the content, to get trained. How to test, to report well, what are the issues and so on and so forth. But I don't know. What are your impressions, guys?
(Mario) I had the experience, for example, that what I have seen actually started to see for the last year and a half. is that, for example, LinkedIn started started to be a platform where you can get if you're into accessibility field. And you're the accessibility tester. You could get some interesting job offerings from different companies in Europe, which was not the case before. I have encountered a few so far and have encountered those of a few interviews so far for various job job positions, which I didn't accept at the end. And one of the reasons why I didn't accept besides the other conditions which you have for the particular job is because of the fact that people who are one who wants to hire you as the accessibility consultant think that this is something which is. And Project, which will last for a few months and then it will be finished. And this is something that's totally wrong. I think that the
We can all Agree on the fact that the accessibility if it wants, if it needs to be taken into account seriously is the ongoing process. So sorry,
(Hlynur) it needs to be maintained.
(Mario) Of course. Yeah, it needs to be maintained.
(Hlynur) And it's not a destination.
(Mario) No, it's not. It's not a, you know, thing that somebody wants to hire you for a year.
(Tanja) It's not a project. No, it cannot be a project for one two years.
(Mario) And then and then people will think that they will get all the knowledge necessary, so they will be able to continue on their own.
(Tanja) Yes, they will base the knowledge on your work, but the technology develops, so it's impossible. The standards are developed. Everything is going forward. So you cannot base accessibility on a project. I mean, your accessibility work on the project.
(Mario) Sure. And also other
(Hlynur) Other like we have like you, like you guys, you know, you know, Site improve. you know what it does. There are also companies and institutions here that do have site improve. they have this tool that tells you what you're doing wrong and what you need to fix, but turns out there is still no one within that company accountable for fixing it. So they have the solution they're paying for the solution, they're paying for everything. The only thing that they need to do is the manual labour of getting it done. And that's where the story ends.
(Mario) Well, that's I don't know what to say, it's tragic. Yeah,
(Hlynur) yeah, it's really it's a shame. Yeah, like damn, because it was not foreseen by the system that someone fixes accessibility issue and this has to change. Yeah, yeah. How about Pawel, what's your take on this?
(Pawel) Yeah, so I've Been in Austria for a very short time, but I can tell that at least there was a body created to control the quality and to to to collect all the reports of inaccessible public websites. And it's there and they're doing their job and they're also doing a lot of promotion. I have seen one spot they recorded for the. people said Global Accessibility Awareness Day or it was the International Day of disabled people where they actually have shown how a blind person works with the Screen reader, so they are out there doing showing it. But I don't know much about the situation at large, like how good or bad it is in comparison to before the directive. I know, however, from Poland that a lot of people are talking about accessibility. There is a lot of accessibility presentation going on in different sectors. I heard about the case in education, and people are running scared. People don't know what to do if this, like they get this training somebody comes, tells them that, well, they are this disabled people. They need things to be accessible. They may be explain how it works. But the impression at the end is we don't know who is supposed to do this. We probably cannot afford it. We don't know if anybody will actually use it at our particular place. And honestly, it would be good if somebody just came, did it And we are safe. And the problem is that people don't get how it works. It's often they expect that you will come as an accessibility auditor and you will fix all their issues within a fortnight because they need to be ready by 23rd September or some other deadline. And the thing is, just like, you know, another regulation they have to follow. Oh my god, stupid EU, And that there will be this nice woman or man who will just come. You pay them a bunch of money and they'll get it sorted and their misery. Yeah. And there is A huge mix up in also In the responsibilities and roles like people don't get the difference between an accessibility auditor accessibility tester.
(Mario) Oh yeah, oh yeah,
(Pawel) accessibility consultant and programmer, and so much more. So they expect you to sort of do everything, even though you tell them I'm just a blind person so I can test. Ultimately, for with the best result, for one use case, you need and help of an auditor Who can in turn, maybe hire me to test this blind person who has the methodology and the experience in organising a whole audit Story. So,
(Mario) oh yeah,
(Pawel) And this is a lot of money. It's not also like you will come to me. And Pawel could you please take a look at this and tell me if it's right? And it would be good if you said if it's all right because, well, the less we have to do, the better. And it's also quite crazy when you tell people how much you your work is worth. It's like I got some offers to do some kind of accessibility testing for institutions, and I consulted other people in the field in Poland to get some measurement, like how much it could be worth. What's your reality? And I got like different opinions more or less, I have calculated. how much I would like to be paid, and I told the institution, in turn, this is this is my offer, do you take it or not? And there was no response anymore.
(Tanja) Unfortunately, I think the impression is that we we are doing This like just in five 10 minutes. And it's a favour. It's not work. It's
(Pawel) yeah, because we do it for ourselves, like it should be us who should be fighting for this to happen. So we better do it for free because after all, if we don't do it, then we don't have the outcome.
(Tanja) But it's sad because This is a mind set that has to change. I think also what would help to raise this issue is that everyone who encounters accessibility issues on public sector websites is to report this because the feedback mechanism is there and to report to the organisations telling what are the issues and if they don't receive any feedback, they they just think everything is fine. Nobody, nobody who has a disability is accessing our website. But this is not the truth. So at least as a citizen, I think you can do something on this level and then slowly I hope it will change also what we criticise just before.
(Mario) I mean, speaking of the whole situation, I have to come back also to the fact that when some companies are searching for the accessibility specialists, the people in the HR
Department who are supposed to talk to you and basically recruit you as the candidate, have no clue about what are they talking about. So you need to be very patient at the same time and explain if the person on the other side wants to listen to you. What do you need to do, how do you have the things done? And then you might also encounter the positive or negative experience you can have. Or you can also get to the point where you end up on the interview and you find out that the company who wants to hire you wants to. make some things accessible, which might not be possible to do, such as working with the very highly visual stuff and, you know, making the statistics accessible, Which is very tricky to do.
(Hlynur) Maps Yeah. Yeah,
(Mario) yeah.
(Hlynur) So if but if you look back. What have what has been accomplished? I can least say for here in Iceland, if we look back 10 years, for example, now we say that companies are searching for accessibility professionals and testers Look back 10 years. No company was searching for.
(Mario) That's true. That's true. Yeah,
(Hlynur) anything related to accessibility. So the awareness stage is much higher.
(Mario) It is. And it will grow. It will grow exponentially. Even more so this is something that we need to. I mean, we as a people, especially with people with disabilities, I think that we are the best candidates for doing these kind of jobs,
(Hlynur) Of course,
(Mario) Because we know eventually what needs to be changed. And people who have, for example, some site left can also work as the developers because there are some stuff which
blind developers cannot do visually. But somebody who is visually impaired can can fix that. And at the same time. Yeah, it's this is something that will become popular more and more. Absolutely. And
(Hlynur) absolutely feel like that now we're at this point that when companies and institutions are aware of accessibility, they're kind of aware of why it's important and why it needs to be there and all those things. But I feel like, OK, enough awareness. Let's start doing.
(Mario) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hmm.
(Pawel) (Mm hmm.
(Hlynur) I feel I really do feel like we are at that stage now.
(Pawel) I have a similar feeling about it's not related strictly to accessibility, but more to, let's say, social life. where people really admire you for doing your best as a blind person and they say all the stuff that you an inspiration and so on.
(Hlynur) You're totally hero.
(Pawel) Yeah. And I'm like, and they keep asking you about, you know, how you live, how you do this, how and I'm fine doing this. But you see that there is not much coming out of it, like people Bart you on your back and it's fine for five minutes, but then you're not really sure if it takes any effect with their learning. You know, if they could do something better. As a society, there is no reflection self-reflection in it other than, Oh my God, we are much blinder than you are because we don't think about this and that thing in our life. But this is not really transferred anyhow to improving the situation for disabled people. Every time somebody like tells me that I'm an inspiration, I'm actually tempted to ask, What did I inspire you to do? Like, what was the thing that you decided to do different since the day you met me ?So
(Mario) So why don't you ask them?
(Hlynur) Not not the thing that you did to inspire them, but what did you inspire them to do? I think that's a nice, nice, Nice way to look at it.
(Pawel) It's a fresh thought, so I haven't had a chance that it's fortunately not like I hear it every day. But I think next time it happens, I will, because it's it's an interesting effort to play with,
Yeah, yeah,
(Hlynur) I dare you and I want to hear the response.
(Tanja) I think it's a philosophical question, and it also depends how much the person is open.
(Mario) Yeah, sure. Yeah, but I translate this message is that Pawel is not happy with enough attention from the chicks that he's getting.
(Everyone laughs)
(Pawel) That's a that's a separate issue, but we're a technological podcast, so we do have technology like Tinder and more.
So technology is becoming more aware of
(Pawel) photos, photos, even more photos, giving voice samples anyway.
(Hlynur) Yeah, yep. Ok, so healthy and good discussion. I'm very happy with you guys. So we're going to wrap up this show with Pavel interviewing Gleb Zevkov, CEO of Voxmate.
Voxmate Yeah. Voxmate, which isn't completely a strange product to us, to our listeners and to us in the team because there is a person in the team who we already know working with the developers and it's Jakob, hello, you still remember us, we hope.
[laughter]
(Mario) Yeah)
(Pawel) And yeah, and Jakob has been working with Gleb and Katja and the whole Voxmate team over there in Estonia, building the product. It's an Android-based, self-voiced app for accomplishing different tasks based on a system of menus with just four gestures: flick down – next element, flick up - previous element, flick left - previous menu, flick right - expand menu; and you can make phone calls with it, you can send text messages, listen to music, radio, access services like Reddit, Telegram, but also it turns out you have a bunch of new capabilities, such as multiplayer games and audio forums, so if you have that community vibe and you would like to meet some more blind people from all around the world, this is also the place to be and they have really big plans for it, so you can listen to the interview. It reminds me a lot of Tweesecake, just in the mobile version. It can‘t be done, of course, in the mobile version with the keyboard shortcuts and invisible interfaces, but it's the closest thing to what we have. You will hear it also in the interview, it's a bit like the old IVR systems of the day where you could just call a number and get all the information by pressing 1 or 2 or 5 and you would Get into different menus and choose different information that you wanted to access; so, yeah, let's give it up to Gleb and what his vision is all about.
[Interview Jingle, text: The EBU Access Cast Interview]
(Pawel) So here we are back with an interview with Gleb Zevkov, the CEO... Are you... Are you the CEO of Voxmate, right? The new...
(Gleb) Uhh...
(Pawel) product on the market.
(Gleb) I prefer not to put labels on a two-man outfit. We are just getting started, so I'm the founder, let's put it that way.
(Pawel) Ok, but nevertheless, you are the the person who came up with the idea, more or less, I guess. What inspired you and basically, how did you come to an idea that a product for blind people would be something you would like to endeavour on, would be your kind of adventure?
(Gleb) So it started with my co-founder, Katia. Her father started losing vision first in one eye, and it was, you know, an ordeal and then suddenly in the other eye, and then it was a big, big, life-changing event for us all. It was a very surreal experience for the family, and we were kind of, uh, dealing with it firsthand, because they live in a different city, but he was undergoing his therapies here in Tallinn and we kind of tried to figure out how we could help and when he lost vision in both, both eyes at the age of 58, I think 59, it was very difficult for him to adapt. He, he was already set in many of his routines and we kind of tried to figure out ways we could help, like for example, we bought a bunch of cheap MP3 players and put an audio book on each MP3 player, and so he could kind of switch around; and then we got him a big iPad and tried to, you know, learn VoiceOver ourselves and then teach him how to use VoiceOver and it didn't go so well, because even, even if you're, you know, kind of happy with VoiceOver, a lot of websites (and he was very set in his preference, uh, for news, for example), are not very accessible. You can kind of go with VoiceOver and all the banners pop up, and it kind of very hard to understand what's going on, even if you can see, but if you can't see and you're, you know, fingering around with exploratory gestures, it's much more harder, so what we did was... So we started figuring out: maybe we can make a little bit of, you know, a little box for him. I bought a, like, Ar... Arduino or Raspberry... Raspberry Pi device, and I put a numpad on it, kind of started playing with that idea, and made audiobooks app for him on that, and then we thought, Well, you know, we looked around the internet for what, what existed and we couldn't find anything that would be simple enough for him to use, so we thought, OK, well, let's do something, and that's how we started in Voxmate.
(Pawel) So what is it exactly?
(Gleb) Well, it's an App and it's an App platform, so it installs as an App on Android from Google Play, and you can get it already today. And inside Voxmate you use gestures to navigate around smaller apps, we used to call them Voxlets, but now we just call them Voxmate apps, and these Voxmate apps, we have a whole bunch of them. There is one for news, one for podcasts, one for audiobooks, one for radio and so on, and they kind of create this cohesive atmosphere, a simple interface that's very easy to get started with. Most of our testers who are a little bit older, get comfortable within, you know, within an hour and then they can use a whole bunch of services, but Voxmate started as an idea to make these simple services, but we kind of grown up from that. We made this platform, and on top of this platform, we built a YouTube application, we've built the Telegram application, we built a Reddit application and so on, and we kind of creating more and more apps. We have like 20 apps today and, and we're... we want to... This is the path that we want to be on.
(Pawel) So how does the navigation go? What makes it so simple to use and did it in the end help Katja's father? So your co-founder‘s father in making this technology more accessible to him? And what was the idea behind the navigation there?
(Gleb) Well, they're kind of two, two basic ideas. First of all, let's minimise the number of things you can do with, with the phone screen, and right now it's just four, four gestures to get started: up, down, left and right; and you can, you know, go around of a lot of these applications... to use a lot of these applications; and the second idea was to have a good audio-first experience, be... The way accessible applications have been made to date is we take a visual interface and we say, OK, so let's put, you know, descriptors here and there, and we kind of structure it from, from... from then on. That's how we get exploratory interfaces and so on; or we go full voice like with google Assistant or otherwise that shall not be named, but what we wanted to do, we wanted to go gesture mode so that it's very expressive and there's no way to misunderstand the gestures: you swipe up, down, left, right, very easy, and we wanted the audio experience to be very clean, so, so that there's no, you know, extra stuff, you don't have to explain every little thing, and you don't have to say that this is a button, it's a node or a tile, we call them in an interface and it kind of., it's much more self-explanatory, because we're trying to focus on the audio-first experience.
(Pawel) Mm hmm.
So there is this, this menu context and you just navigate as in... as if a TV, let's say, an old TV or old phone menu style, getting in and out of menus, choosing the right option and getting wherever you want, right?
(Gleb) We've got our inspiration from, you know, dialler systems, nobody likes those, but, you know, when you dial your bank or something, press 1 to do this, press 2
(Pawel) Yes, mm hm.
(Gleb) to do that,
(Pawel) Mm hmm.
(Gleb) So nobody likes those. They're really inhumane, but it actually works out quite well if you have a sys... real-Time system that quickly responds to your, to your input. We also have voice input for storage and so on, and you can input with keyboard but to get started you just need a Four gestures, you can get around the menu, you swipe up and down to go around the options and you activate the option by swiping right and then you deactivate, you go back by swiping left, so it kind of is one of those. That's where we got the inspiration from this old telephone menu systems.
(Pawel) I also find them quite interesting. This is a system that I used to explore, of course, as I was a child. Let's say internet wasn't so popular and accessibility, well, forget it, but the IVR systems were around and I can still remember calling up a local cinema. They had a fully automated IVR system where you could get to know the whole schedule, which movie is running when, and I was so excited because it was my first source of independently obtaining some information so I Was basically torturing my whole family, telling them all about the latest movies that I heard about from the IVR, and I, like, whenever I do accessibility demonstrations for sighted people or even for students in a class, when I was still at the university, I always did a funny exercise in which I asked the group at large: „If you could imagine that screens were never invented and we never moved beyond IVR systems and basically telephone lines, if it was our ultimate technology today, how would you imagine the services of today and the challenges of Internet of today in a telephone-accessible form? How do you imagine social media as an audio experience? How do you imagine viruses? How do you imagine spam?“, and the results are usually interesting. People sometimes have no idea if they could assign, I don't know a sound, a nasty sound to a computer virus playing over the phone or basically their favourite shopping website where they cannot see a single photo of their, the shoes they want to buy, but they can just hear things, so this is an interesting approach. I guess there is always this fight, and you probably got to know this when you started testing with larger amount of people, that there are proponents of the universal accessibility so that we should use the mainstream apps as everyone does and promote and advocate for more accessibility and more inclusion in the interfaces, or the custom-made clients based on some external Api where the blind people are the target group, and so the interface is built from scratch, it's just thought of at the conception stage, is this somehow the direction you are going, like, the more into the custom apps area or are you also looking at some mainstream, mainstream universal accessibility as a worthwhile cause or more like good way to progress and the goal to be in the future, screen readers and mainstream apps in tandem?
(Gleb) I think this is, it‘s a... it‘s a great discussion to have and I heard this, you know, Yeah, I've had this discussion a couple of times with people and I, I think that we need to be doing both. and it's not either or kind of scenario. The way I, I think about Voxmate is that it can be a tool for forcibly accessibilizing existing services, and that's how I Kind of internalise it. There's, you know, websites and there's services that they just don't have the resource to make an accessible Layer, let's put it that way, on top of and or or they iterate the UI so much, you know, maybe they‘re startup, maybe they‘re small and they don't have the resources, but but let's say if if we want to use that product, why not have a means to be able to accessibilize it? You know, on behalf of the original app‘s creator? So and, and I think in many cases, this is a little bit of a mute point, for example, let's say we take, we take Telegram as an example. They make a client, they make several clients actually, and they make a very nice SDK that you can plug into and you can create your own client quite easily, so why wouldn't we want to create a client that is much more audio-friendly as opposed to a client that is much more visual or maybe a clutter-free client or something like that, I think that a lot of these services downstream boil down to: there's a set of data, set of API‘s that we can kind of open up, and there could exist many clients, many different types of, of interfaces to that service, for example, a couple of years ago, Netflix started to kind of changing their UI a little bit and making it simpler to find new content as... or so they thought, but I like, you know, I like long lists of things where I can filter and I could, I could see myself using a client on top of Netflix that is much more friendlier to, you know, a person who, You know, has a data-centric view of the world; and then there could be a Netflix client that is much more suitable for a person who doesn't know what they want to watch and in a similar way, there could be a client on top of Reddit that is very nice for that use or very nice for audible use, so I think and what we want to make with Voxmate is, is we... we want to create this SDK so that it's very easy to write these clients on top, so we've made 20 applications. It's because it's quite easy to make applications on top of Voxmate, and it's quite easy to accessibilize a service that might provide an API or provide something that you can use externally, so I don't necessarily see this as, as... as a big fight between two, two camps or two, two, two ideas.
(Pawel) Mhm,
(Gleb) and another way of thinking about it is also, you know, Katja's father could probably, you know, even if you, you say that it's quite accessible, you know, to use certain app using VoiceOver and I might agree with you, but he wouldn't agree because it's too difficult for him. It's, it's as if it wasn't accessible at all. Learning something is also part of, of... of accessibility journey and when, when that learning is too difficult, when it's too difficult, then you can almost say that it's inaccessible, and so it can be also thought of as a stepping stone. You know, if you're just lost vision Voxmate might be a good fit for you, but as you progress in your journey and as you learn how to use Talkback, how to use VoiceOver, then it becomes much, you know, you might say, Well, then I'll start using these apps as well.
(Pawel) Speaking of that, actually, you probably had this argument many times testing with the community, but a lot of people who are very self-sufficient with technology will tell you that we don't need another voice interface while we already have screen readers and you have already addressed this a little bit. You told us what your, at least a part of your target group might be.
You had your first user case that basically has shown that a solution like Voxmate is needed out there., but how do you? Is that your only target group? And if not, how do you plan or how are you approaching and convincing the sceptics?
(Gleb) I think the sceptics need to give it a try. If you're super comfortable with Voiceover, try our version of Telegram client, for example it's still better to have a dedicated audio interface that is tailor-made to be used as an audio interface. That's just been our experience so far that people are... when they, when they try the app, a lot of them go: „OK, I see, I see the point. There's, there's value in this, even for me, even as an advanced user, I can find value in using particular client, for example“, but what we want to see is, is Voxmate as two things: first, as a stepping stone between, you know, no apps, no phone, no nothing and Talkback or VoiceOver, so I mean, even the sceptics have to agree that the learning curve is difficult for some people, so even before you... before you get to that level of proficiency with Talkback, you might enjoy the services that are simpler to use and then, on the other hand, what we want to do, and this is in our pipeline for the next year of development, we want to make a very development-friendly environment, so that you can create your own self-voicing applications that are tailor-made either to your small scale needs, like, for example, we had a person who wanted to automate their air conditioner and all, all they need is a simple app that will turn it on, on and off; or you could have a community that's passionate about some service and they would forcibly accessibilize it, even, even if it's not accessible today, so I would say to the sceptics that I think there's, there's room for both approaches, and audio-first could be a great experience, even if you are really comfortable with Voiceover, Talkback.
(Pawel) Ok. Umm, there is also a great post I have seen on one of the community forums regarding Voxmate where a person suggested that it would maybe make sense to apart, of course, from offering these clients and the interfaces, all your first interfaces that you do offer, to also include a sort of gateway, a bridge playing field, if I may say so, for learning how to use actual screen readers. Is it some direction that you would find sensible for the future of Voxmate?
(Gleb) I think it's a good idea. We're right now just getting started with what we want to build, and it is a huge undertaking for us. We want to be part of the larger vision., yes, but, but it might, might take different forms. We might want to take Voxmate to be a sort of assistive tool like, Voxmate would be a screen reader, this is a path that we are investigating, for example, and we have cool ideas how to do that in a new, different, simpler way, or we want to be able to integrate with Talkback and VoiceOver better, so right now, Voxmate is only on Google Play, by the way, but we're investigating how to make an iOS version, that's also in the pipeline for us.
(Pawel) Mm hmm.
(Gleb) So, yeah, Voxmate can be a way from my point of view, it's a it's a stepping stepping stone for many people that are just dealing with accessibility issues today, and going forward, maybe there could be an experience through Voxmate that would be a teaching experience. Today, Voxmate already supports Talkback as compatibility mode. That means that you can have Talkback enabled and use Voxmate at the same time. All you need to do is add another finger and you can swipe up and down with two fingers and swipe left and right with two fingers and then it would work as, as expected, and so you could much easier use it as as a... as a little extra application, if you only need it, for example, for Telegram or for Reddit or something like that.
(Pawel) Yeah, that sounds like a great compromise. You also have apart, of course, from this clients for external services, some of your in-house technology, you have some social networking features as well, and some multiplayer games that you released in the, in the first release, the public one that is out there. Could you say something a little bit more about this? What's your approach? What's your goal with this and how do you find this being useful for the... for your target audience?
(Gleb) So we look at Voxmate first of all, as an entertainment platform, and then we wanted to show that we can do a lot of things on this platform. You could read the news, sure, that's, that's kind of easy to understand, but you can also play quite complicated multiplayer games and we've started making these multiplayer games on our own. There's... We have four colors right now as our example game that you can go and play today, and the idea here is that we can bring people together. People are bored. They can find some... someone online to play with. We also made our own audio forum.
We here were playing with the idea that... that may be, you know, transcribing, you know, speech to text and then text... back text to speech is not always optimal, so maybe we can record the audio and people can just talk. It's, it's similar idea to how Clubhouse works, but in an offline fashion, so you kind of post audio messages and, and people reply to you with audio messages. We thought that, well, the audio forum is just getting started, of course, so we'll see where it goes. Right now, it's more of a support forum for Voxmate. We can... If you have any issues or if you want to know something how to do something, that's a great way to, to get an answer, but going forward, I mean, in the future, what we kind of want to create a community feeling. One of the biggest challenges that Katja‘s father had to face is adapting to his new reality, and as... try as we might to kind of cheer him on, the best thing that worked in his situation was actually talking to the blind union people from the blind union, and we want to have that kind of experience built into Voxmate, so if, if people need to reach out, there's, there's a way to do that also, and we want to play with, with... with concepts that only make sense in a, in a blind world. As you say, if we imagine, reimagine the world, that there is no interface, no visual interface, how would that world be? And so we came up with these ideas like audio forum, and because it is a platform, it's fairly easy for us to experiment with it, so we create a backend for it, we create an audio app for it and we see how people like it and what people think about it. Right now, there's a lot of ideas on the forum like how could we improve it if people want to add personal messaging, people want to add this and this, and we have to kind of wait and see how the forum develops on its own, what people want and what we can improve downstream.
(Pawel) Sounds great. What's your pricing at the moment and what's your sustainability model?
(Gleb) We are very aware of, of... of abandonware in, in accessibility and especially in VI, a lot of people create apps and then they kind of fail to find a suitable way to finance the app, so they kind of float around. We wanted to create... that's why we created a platform so that we could bundle up all the apps in one space, so it kind of makes sense to pay for the apps and, and implicitly, it also gives us financial support to, to continue improving the applications, continue supporting the applications. Right now, we're offering 75% off, of early access offer. We're just fresh off the presses into Google Play and Currently we're, we just want to get as many users on board as possible to kind of see what works and what doesn't work, so we're offering a 75% off and you can get a monthly subscription as low as 3,50 €. I think the actual price may vary just a bit between jurisdictions, but that's our rough target. We want to raise some funding and develop it further for maybe another year or so before we are sure that this product is kind of ready for, you know, maybe to remove the early access moniker, but we're... This is where we are kind of. This is where we're starting up.
(Pawel) And what is the plan about the pricing for the, for the future? Is it still to be decided or have you got any fixed numbers?
(Gleb) We think that we're going to target around €10 per month when, when we are, when we feel comfortable to do so and this, we probably will start ramping the price up a little bit over, over time so that it doesn't come as a shock. Right now, we're, we're running this 75% off so that we get as many people as possible on board, and it's been quite a nice reception so far and we hope to continue and grow the userbase. We think that we can give a lot of value for the, for the monthly subscription and, and think of it that way also that if there's a large enough userbase supporting us with subscription that it makes sense for us to hire developers to continue, continuing development, improving the applications, cleaning things up and so on. one of the strengths of Voxmate is our ability to push application updates, so every time you visit an app, if it has been updated and you're connected to the internet, you'll get a new version, so it's very easy for us to kind of iterate over something, updates something and so on, but we need, of course, finances to do so, and this is what we're kind of trying to figure out how the model will work. We are running this 75% off deal for maybe a couple of months and then we'll see what we'll do.
(Pawel) Do you think this pricing may change or vary depending on what solutions you would like to build around which APIs? Because you mentioned Telegram, but Telegram is one of the very few exceptions in popular and modern services where you actually can so freely develop an alternative interface. Otherwise, there is either no API and any attempt to create anything unofficial meets outright ban from the company, or you have to pay for API access, which sometimes they are not very low bills, mind you, so how do you plan to approach this if you want to expand with more services?
(Gleb) We'll we'll have to, we'll, we'll, we'll... have to see how we do that. We know that some people figure out ways and because we're in accessibility space, we're constantly talking to companies and they have kind of understanding in terms of, you know, trying to help us along, but it is a huge difficulty. As you say, everybody wants to keep things in-house. That's why we don't have Facebook at the moment on the platform, because they kind of keep us out. We'll, we'll... we have ideas how to, how to get around things and we have ideas how to negotiate, so it's just a matter of time before, before we can get better and better services on the platform.
(Pawel) You mentioned this a little bit already, but what are your... what, what next? What are your plans for the nearest future? What would you like to achieve? Maybe you can also drop a very tiny secret about some upcoming features or anything that you are working on at the moment?
(Gleb) So the next feature that... the secret feature that we're going to be dropping has to do with coronavirus and we already have an app for that, and so you can kind of check out how your country's doing, but we're going to be adding a sort of a QR code manager, and you know, a lot of countries, especially in Europe, are doing this kind of mandatory QR Code, so you have to bring, bring... Bring it with you and we'll be doing that, and that's just going to be a small update we'll be releasing soon. We're constantly making small updates to the apps and constantly making changes, but one of the big things that we're working on is, is the SDK, so we want to, we want to bring on board developers, and it might be that you want to create a whole game, audio-first game. (there's actually quite, quite a bit of a buzz in the community about this at the moment), Or maybe you'll want to create a garage opener for your, for your aunt, and we want to kind of bring these solutions into the fold as well; and one of the bigger things that we're trying to figure out how to do next is how to get iOS on board, because Android is a platform that allows you to do certain things, and iOS is a more restrictive space, but we hope to bring some functionality to iOS also.
(Pawel) I don't know how much you know the competition in this field, but perhaps you have already come across solutions like the blindshell, which is a dedicated, also with blind people in mind, a keyboard-based smartphone. I think we can call it smartphone because deep inside it's Android, and although it doesn't have a proper Playstore, there are interfaces created for it that target keyboard use, and basically what now they came out with is they try to receive feedback from the users, which of the openly available apps from the Playstore, for instance, the community would like to use the most and then what they will try and do is adapt these apps to work with the Blindshell. I suppose what happens inside is basically there is a tiny screen reader running which is told by means of scripting, of course, which elements it should focus in which order, which nodes of the proper app it should or... focus in which order when you navigate with the arrow keys up, down, left, right, enter, and it's a sort of hacky way to get at mainstream apps using proprietary keyboard, although the support wasn't added in the first place; and in this way, for example, I believe, I'm not sure about this, but this is, I guess, how it works, and that's how they gotten WhatsApp on board for instance. Do you think some kind of hardware way could be also in store for Voxmate? A dedicated Voxmate device also that maybe would be keyboard-based? Maybe since you already played around with Raspberry Pi, something around that territory?
(Gleb) So we're talking about, you know, putting Voxmate on a watch. That's, that's something that we're interested in doing, and we're also thinking about making our own, we call it the Voxmate Ring, and the Ring would be just connected with Bluetooth to your phone and you would be able to use Voxmate, up, down, left and right kind of deal with... Uh, just directly from the ring and all you need is a pair of wireless headphones and you can have your phone in your pocket, so yeah, we're thinking about stuff like that and, and... you know, regarding competition, I think it's really cool that there's companies around there. I think what we are going to be best at is providing, you know, a developer experience that will ultimately beat the competition because that's what we're focussing on internally. We kind of create these, these really easy ways for us to create and maintain Voxmate software and this is our big differentiator. Of course it's not, you know, it's not public facing, so it might not come into play just, just yet; another thing to notice is, of course,Voxmate already supports keyboard for, for easy input in some situations, so you can connect the Bluetooth keyboard as well, and I think this approach of forcib... this is what I call forcibly accessibilizing. If, if Blindshell is using a hidden screen reader and it's programmed to press buttons in a certain order, I applaud that effort, I think it's, it's a good way of doing things until, until there's a better way, and, and I think we should kind of create a nice sense of how these hacks, as you say, can be made better and maintain better, and that's, that's what we're focussing on with Voxmate.
(Pawel) Thank you so much, thank you for introducing our listeners to Voxmate. I hope, I hope you will have a lot of publicity by this, and I wish you a lot of luck with your development.
(Gleb) Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was, it was a big pleasure.
(Pawel) Gleb Zevkov, part of the Voxmate team. Voxmate, self-voiced audioface... audio-first interface for many interfaces on Android. Where can our listeners find it?
(Gleb) You can find it today on Google, Google Play. Just type in Voxmate, or you can go to our webpage voxmate.com and find everything from there.
(Pawel) Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing this with our listeners, and we hope to see some nice updates from you in the near future.
(Gleb) Alright, thank you, Pawel.
(Hlynur) So that's our show, thank you very much for listening to us once again and hoping to see you back in around six weeks. Thank you, guys. Thank you, Tanja, Mario and Pawel for being here with me and take care and bye-bye!
(Everyone) Byeeeeee!
[Jingle]
Thank you for listening to EBU Access Cast.
If you want to contact us, you can send us an email to ebuaccesscast@euroblind.org or find us on Twitter at @Ebuaccesscast.
Welcome back to EBU Access Cast - podcast about assistive technology for blind and partially sighted people. This is transcribed episode 32.
Some of us got the EU Covid certificate and we shared our experiences of showing the digital version on the mobile phone as blind persons. We found out that not all PDF viewers on mobile phones open the QR code maximised and therefore this creates difficulties to blind persons to show properly the certificate on the Covid-19 travel checkpoints. Feel free to share your experience with us!
Pawel discovered a very handy app for taking notes Simplenote. The notes are synced on all your devices and can be accessed via the web interface as well. We were thrilled to discover that the interface is accessible on all platforms and that every action has an assigned shortcut.
We discussed the new accessibility features in iOS15 and compared them with Google announcement of the changes which will come in Android 12.
We also commented the Windows 11 accessibility announcement.
The NVDA 2021.1 was released in July with many new features and bug fixes.
We discovered the NVDA Unmute addon that checks the status of the Windows audio system when NVDA starts. If the sound is muted - the add-on forcibly turns it on. As blind users we find it very useful.
Mario discovered the RHVoice, open source TTS engine, that supports 8 languages.
Get in contact with us, share your comments or suggestions via email ebuaccesscast@euroblind.org or via Twitter @ebuaccesscast.
Transcript of EBU Access Cast - episode 32 (jingle)
This programme is financially supported by the fundings from the European Commission.
You are listening to the EBU Access Cast. The official podcast from European Blind Union about assistive technology for blind and partially sighted people.
And here is our host.
Introduction (Tanja) Hello, everyone, welcome to Episode 32 of the EBU Access Cast. This is our last episode before summer break. And I hope you're doing great. My name is Tanja Kleut and I am based in Luxembourg. In this episode, I am joined by Paweł Masarczyk, based in Austria. Hello Pawel.
(Pawel) Hello. Tanja. Glad to hear from you again.
(Tanja) Glad to hear from you too. And we have also Mario Percinic based in Luxembourg. Hello, Mario.
(Mario) Hello.
(Tanja) How are you guys? What's going on?
(Mario) We are alive. Not flooded, fortunately. The flood got quite close to the place where I live, but it's fortunate I'm on the hill, so it didn't affect me, which is good. But yeah, man in the western Germany and the whole Benelux, it's really terrible. And we're so sorry to hear that there were even some people with disabilities who unfortunately died in all of this. So, yeah, condolences to all of those families from the people. But fortunately, we are still alive. So that's good. And we wish the speedy recovery to everybody who got hurt in this terrible accident.
(Tanja) Yes, exactly.
(Mario) Yeah, but we're fine. And we are here to deliver our last episode before summer break (singing summer break). Yeah, man, I'm really looking forward to it.
(Tanja) Finally to have some sun and sea.
(Mario) And yeah, actually, for people who don't know, like the last four weeks in Luxembourg were terrible regarding the weather. It was, I don't know, 24/7 rain, almost.
(Tanja) Yes. For us from Croatia, having one month of rain, during summer, by the way…
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) It's just unacceptable. You cannot survive with this weather.
(Mario) The daily temperatures in average didn't go over like 15, 16. If there would be 20 considered like warm. Ah, man, it's really not good. But, OK, we are here.
(Pawel) Yeah, here also in Austria the weather is quite variable, going from very high temperatures and unbearable heat to very rainy days like today. Today, it's quite grey outside. It's not very inviting to go out. But I'm happy that, well, the world is relaxing somewhat and people are more willing to go out and meet. I missed that. And finally, we might be able to travel this season at least a little bit, maybe not far, maybe somewhere. So that's good. I'm happy about that. And again, sorry to everyone who is affected by the floods. I only know them from the news, but I lived in Luxembourg myself at some point. So I definitely know of some people, including you people who might be affected. So, yeah, all the best wishes to all of you in the countries which are that heavily influenced by this at the moment. Yeah, hopefully. Hopefully the situation will be better soon.
(Tanja) Yes, let's hope that things will turn out alright.
Do you have any recommendations or new gadgets that you would like to mention in our pre-news section?
(Mario) Actually, I don't have anything to recommend except the fact that the last month was the month of disaster for some tech stuff which got broken in, but fortunately got repaired.
I got my old laptop. I got an accident with the battery because I realised that my battery is swollen on my laptop, which eventually happens from time to time by itself. You don't have to do anything. Unfortunately, that's a hardware bug, let's call it like that. And I realised that at one point I just could not close my laptop anymore. And then I brought it to one guy who is a hardware guy for repairs, and he told me like, “hey, this is very dangerous to use it, you have to repair it as soon as possible or check if it's possible to repair it”. So I was lucky to find a very good service here in Luxembourg, which repairs computers and smartphones and iPads and all kinds of different tech stuff. So they were very, very professional, I have to say, and very kind. And they repaired it for a very good price I have to say. Now I have two machines because in the meantime, I had to buy a new one because I didn't know whether this one will be possible to repair and blah, blah, blah. But it's OK. I got this new machine and the old machine as a spare one, which is always good to have because. Well, you never know. So, yes, but other than that, speaking of the accessibility stuff and the blind techy things – no. Not from me.
(Tanja) Pawel, What about you?
(Pawel) I'll be actually mentioning something I discovered last week, two weeks before, which is an interesting software slash website slash app, but that belongs to the U.S. So it has a lot to do with not taking and sharing the notes with others and making them look nice and making them look organised. So let's wait for that second to come. But other than that, no, I haven't had anything to test for a while.
(Tanja) OK, we will mention this in the news section. Actually, I don't know, maybe this is interesting for our female listeners because I bought a bag for a laptop that is nice and elegant and is actually for women. It's for smaller laptops, for 14 inch laptop and it's from Samsonite. Samsonite Zalia 2.0 Backpack with Flap. The colour that I chose is black, but you have also stone grey and midnight blue, if that is something that means to you. So it's a type of blue colour and it's quite nice. It has a lot of pockets and it looks nice. So you don't have a standard backpack if you want to look elegant at the same time. So I think this is something nice.
Accessibility in the news Digital Covid certificates (Tanja) Well, I'm preparing for travelling, finally, after almost two years, like most of you probably. And something that we need during our travel is the EU covid certificate, which is delivered in paper or in digital format. In digital format, we have the PDF document, which is actually surprising at one side, I have to say, because the PDF is not the most accessible or not the most popular amongst the accessibility community. But at the same time, unfortunately, I have to say, it is very much use in the administration field. So we have it as PDF document. And then the question is, if we want to use it as a digital document, which applications or PDF readers we can use to make visible the QR code, because sometimes the document opens in that way that you have to zoom to make visible the QR code that you have to give to the control to scan it. And that's Bart for Screen reader users is difficult because if the document is not fully accessible and you don't know where to Zoom is just making that moment difficult. So we discovered that actually some applications open the document completely and some don't. And you have some findings, Mario and Pawel, about this.
(Pawel) Yeah, we look at Android mostly, I guess, so that's a bit one sided because I don't know how this looks on iOS.
(Tanja) In iOS I was using the Documents application. And, well, I didn't have the chance to use it to scan it, but it should work all right.
(Mario) So it's interesting to see how the Android behaves in that kind of situation, because from the accessibility point of view, you would expect that Adobe Reader, which is, the most accessible on the Windows platform, would kind of behave the same under Android, which unfortunately is not the case because this is the viewer, which unfortunately makes the most problems for us if we really don't have any sight. The PDF gets open, but in order to see the complete content, you have to zoom through it, and it's really terrible to do that alone because the TalkBack or any other Screen reader doesn't speak as much as it has to. And the only solution what you have to do in the end, if you are using Adobe on your Android is to give the phone to somebody else. And then in the same time, you have to turn off your TalkBack because the gestures are not the same for blind people and people who can see. So at that point, I don't think it's secure enough to do that, and I always prefer to manoeuvre the things myself, if possible. So I was really, when I discovered that the Adobe Reader doesn't work as expected, I was desperate to find something else, and after asking around the various groups and experimentation, I discovered that the other third party apps, such as the OneDrive or the Google Drive or even the Dropbox have the PDF viewers on their own, and if you select, let's say I selected for myself a Google drive to open that my PDF cert with it, which I have stored locally on my mobile, so it's not anywhere in the cloud. If I open that through the PDF viewer in Google Drive, then it opens in the full view and people are able to see my QR code right away. And I can even scroll down through the rest of the document. The thing is that when you get the Covid certificate, you are not just having your document, which is showing your QR code. You have also the rest of information, which can be very important for you, because there is written where did you get vaccinated and where do you come from, which country, etc, etc.? Because from my understanding is that when you scan the QR code, the only thing you are getting is like if your certificate is valid or not, but you're not getting any more information where do you come from, how many doses did you get, et cetera, et cetera, for that kind of stuff, you have to scroll down through the document to show it to the others so they can see it. And that's why this is important to have. Just to open in those viewers, unfortunately, Adobe, will not work.
(Pawel) What I tried to find was a PDF viewer that would work also with local files and offline, I guess you can store all these cloud files offline because obviously if you're flying, it might be that you don't have access to your Internet. At some point, you can, right? You can store the files offline with the drives.
(Mario) Sure, that’s how I open. First I had the file locally stored on my phone so I just open the file with my viewer.
(Pawel) Yeah. What I thought what might also work would be a PDF viewer that displays the PDF as a web view because then you can navigate it pretty much like a website and then you can also scroll it as much as you want and you can even locate the individual items on the screen so you can be sure what's visible and what's not. The problem was that I even found a library that programmers can use to design such PDF readers. But none of these readers based on the library, was working as it should. So in one case, there was a Web view, but nothing was read by TalkBack in the other case everything was read in one line, so basically the way every PDF is read on the Android, which makes it, by the way, very difficult, for instance, to browse menus in restaurants even if they're available online. That's what I found, because everything is read at once and you can't really focus on what is the dish and what is the price and then the next one and it's quite cumbersome to read. But that was the problem and I tried to find it. So if any of you knows accessible PDF reader that is based on a web view and lets you navigate a PDF like a web view with all the elements. So if there are headings I can go by headings, if there is a table, I can navigate a table and so on. Feel free to chime in because that's something I would find would work perfectly on Android, but seems to be missing for some reason and I try to open the PDF with Chrome OS. I even tried to install some kind of extension for the Firefox Android browser,
(Mario laughing) Man.
(Pawel) But somehow I couldn't get it to work anyway. And I would rather avoid using because obviously I could find some online PDF VoiceOver website where you load the PDF and will just display on the website. But I would not like to give my private files like this to some third party website. I don't know. Yeah. So if you know any offline PDF reader that does it, possibly open source but doesn't have to be free to chime in because there would be something that would perfectly work on Android I think.
(Mario) Yeah. By the way, just a tip to the other people who are eventually on the Android side, don't even try to use a specialised kind of PDF readers which are available through the app such as the Envision or the Sulivan Plus because they will be open, but the QR code won't be visible on the screen. And that's something thatyou want to avoid.
(Pawel) They do the OCR and they strip the whole graphical, the whole visual aspect of the file, right?
(Mario) Yeah, but for some reason, people who were checking out my screen were sighted. They could see all the rest of the stuff. Butnot the QR code.
(Pawel) Mm hmm.
(Mario) Because it's probably because the file is encrypted and that's why.
(Tanja) Yes, the file is encrypted. And that is… Well, I understand the reason, But it's a problem for accessibility, because when you want to read your document on the computer, Windows computer with NVDA or JAWS, you cannot because the file is protected. So you have to find some workarounds to be able to read the document. So this is, again, why I don't think a PDF is a good format, but well, that's what we have. And actually on my applications, where I opened the certificate in Documents and Books, which are the default PDF viewers on iOS. I was able to navigate, but the problem is that the PDF document is not fully accessible. So anyway, you cannot really navigate by having headings and images that have alt behind so that you know where is the QR code. You're just guessing because I had some four graphics without any label, maybe the logotypes from the organisations who provided the certificates, I suppose, and then some text and again a bit of images without any description. So, yes. And VoiceOver was able to read “certificate” on one image, but the rest was not read out. So it really depends on the accessibility of the PDF document at the same time, which should be there.
Taking notes with Simplenote app (Tanja) Then, well, when you're travelling, or not, it's handy to have your notes with you or to write notes on your mobile phone and then also read them on your desktop. And there is an application called Simple Note that Pawel would like to talk about.
(Pawel) Yes, I discovered it actually quite by chance because first I was looking for a markdown compatible note taking application, markdown is a special kind of mark-up language. It is a bit like HTML, if you know this, but simpler. So it's easier to learn and it's faster to use to format your notes or text any kind of text for my own purposes.
(Tanja) Can you explain more. Yes, because actually by reading about this application, I was reading also about markdown and it's quite fascinating. It's so simple and much more accessible than rich text formatting for us.
(Pawel) Yes. Basically what you do is you type all the formatting you want to do in line by using specially assigned characters. So for instance, if you would like to place a heading in your text, you just type the number of the hash signs that you would like, like amounting to the level of the headings. So if you would like a heading level one in your text, you just put a single hash space and then the text. That should be the heading. If you would like level 2, you will do to hashes, level three free hashes. I don't think it goes any deeper than if you would like to do numbered lists or lists with items you just enumerate each item with a dash at the beginning of the line and it will automatically turn into a list. And in this way you can do a lot of formatting, you can italicise text, you can make it bold, you can manipulate the fonts. I think you can put links, you can put images even of other descriptions. You can render tables that are completely accessible with the proper heading markings of the semantic mark-up. You can do lists of checkboxes. So for example, tasks that are completed. And I really like to think of it with the example of a shopping list. So we live with somebody when we make a shopping list and in markdown, you can make a list of items that are checkboxes that are either checked or untracked. And once one person buys an item, they can uncheck it off the list and it will be automatically synchronised with the others. If, of course, you keep your markdown files in some way, that is synchronisable. Simple Note does it, for example. But you can also host local files with Dropbox and do it like this if you want. Um, the beauty of it lies in the fact that they are simple text files.
You can write them even with your standard Windows notepad, you can even write them with your Braille display that has note taking capabilities. I have my Braille Edge 40, for example, and I can type the whole markdown formatting by hand on the Braille display. And then once I synchronise it to my computer, I copy the files, I open them with a markdown editor. I would have to change the extension from TXT to MD and if I open it with the right editor, it will show me the nicely formatted Web page like note with headings, with links, with anything I want. And it's quite intuitive to learn because, well, quite often we start enumerating things on the list with dashes is intuitive. We do it like this because that's how it's written and it uses this intuition approach to basically make it also so easy to learn and so seamless that you don't even have to think that you're doing markdown. Still, there is some stuff you can learn if you go to markdownguide.com, you can have a look at the whole cheat sheet of the markdown syntax and you can read all about the different marking styles and the different signs that you can use to do the formatting and simple not make use of that. If you think of all the platforms like Evernote, like Google Keep, like Microsoft OneNote, Simple Note is something like that, except it's to -some extent open source. The apps are open source, but it's also it's an app for both iOS and Android. It's a Windows 10 software you can download from the Windows store. There is a version for the Mac and for Linux, and there is also a website where you can launch the whole experience from and you can run it in any browser on any device really. It didn't used to be that accessible, I heard, because I know somebody who tested it out back in 2015, I think, and it wasn't so cool. Now everything about it is accessible. So every single item on the page has a shortcut. Even to jump through the search field you can use a shortcut, of course, to start a node, to go to the menu to do a lot of stuff. You can use shortcuts. There is an editor that is fully accessible. They use the Monocle editor, which is made by Microsoft, and it even has a special accessibility, dedicated Web page on their GitHub. So you can read about the different shortcut keys. There is an accessibility mode that you can turn on if you use some of the features. You actually have spoken announcements. By your screen reader, so you will know what's going on and you can do a lot in the Simple Note, you can of course write a note in either simple text or markdown. You can Sort the notes by tags, which is a very popular way of categorising anything really these days. So instead of having directories or folders, you will just have a tag and you can assign one of those to multiple tags and multiple nodes to one tag and you can cross-reference everything. So it's definitely good for organising your efforts in neat categories like that. You can collaborate on one node with other people. So here, a shopping list example is very good because you can invite somebody, you know, by their email address to work with you on the note. And you can even if you have put the mark down once for the shopping list, you can switch to the preview mode where everything is output as formatted content. So you see the checkbox is there. And if you click on the checkbox, for example, to make it checked, it will be reflected in your markdown syntax. So you don't have to type anything manually anymore. You just take the checkboxes one or other way and they will be synchronised to the other people, too. You can insert a lot of the items with commands. For example, for the checkboxes you have a shortcut key. If you press control shift C, you will be able to insert a checkbox with a shortcut instead of typing the syntax manually. You can cross-reference other nodes so you can add a link to another note you have in the system. So then you can click on the link and you'll be jumping straight to another node.
You can quickly switch the shortcut key on the Windows side or in the browser is control shift P and on the mobile systems, on iOS, you just flick with three fingers left and right and on Android it's two fingers left and right. You can switch quickly between the edit mode and the preview mode so you can quickly see if what you have written makes any sense, and if the formatting works in Markdown. You can publish a note, which means you can generate a link that is available to everybody and they can just enter your sort of web page and browse your note in the browser. And it's nice because it doesn't put much Simplenote stuff in there. There is just a footer that says (created with simple note( or something like that. But other than this, from the bottom to the top, it's just the things that you put there so you can make a mini website for anything or really nicely formatted experience if you want to demonstrate anything or show anything to somebody.
(Tanja) But sharing with everyone or only to those with whom you shared the link?
(Pawel)You can do both. So you can you can share the node with the people that you want by email and then it jumps in, it appears automatically in there, Simple note apps, so they can work with you, or you can make a link, and then the link is, well, just available to those of you, those who share it with. It's not indexed anywhere. AR, I don't know if Google indexes these notes. I haven't checked it really. But there is no index where people can just look up these notes. So it's in on principle, it should be only available to people who you give the link, but at least you can link it to the external world. So others who don't even have Simplenote can see what you've put there. You can also connect Simplenote to WordPress, which is no surprise, because at the moment it's managed by the same company that WordPress is headed by automattic with double t second time, And it's maybe also because of that it's got some accessibility, both Bart. You can connect your Simplenote to WordPress and you can publish any note as a WordPress blog post. And you also have access to the history which allows you to go back in time and bring back some previous editions of the same note so that you can go back. If you made some mistake and you cannot take it back. You can always try with a previous version of the note and the whole experience is free of charge. There is no premium plan for the time being. It's accessible. As I said, it's exclusively in English, although the Android app from what I have seen, is partly translated at least to Polish. So maybe other languages are available too. And I would say it's a very good app if you want to get into notes, if you would like to synchronise them across many of your own devices, if you would like to synchronise them with other people, if you would like to have something to write in Markdown with, and it does its job quite nicely. So I must say it works for a lot of note taking purposes and it supports Markdown, which is a very good system for so many users, because I had a chance recently to give a workshop to some international students of school age to tell. About many things, it was about a well, different ways in which you can obtain accessible study materials, but I also put in there a mention of Markdown and there were some practical exercises, and at least one person was quite curious and they said they would be able to imagine using it for school notes. So you can see that this Markdown can be very useful even at such an early educational stage. But it's really good for putting your efforts together for, I don't know, shopping list for even if we wanted to make some notes for the podcast or put some topics together, it could be quite useful to to develop any kind of plan, any kind of task list. As I said, tables work to so it's it's very flexible and extensive and it's also quite simple to use.
Um, so I think it's worth learning. It is worth learning because more and more apps supported there is even a NVDA add on somewhere that lets you convert a Markdown syntax into a webpage that you can view. And there are Markdown tools to convert Markdown to Word documents. There isPandoc, which is a multipurpose text converter from different formats to different formats, and this also supports Markdown. I think there is a Firefox add on for Markdown if you want to write something on a blog or in any editor with Markdown. So it's quite extensive. If you have a look and Google around what you can do with Markdown, you will see that is used for so many purposes and Simplenote is a great example of an app that is accessible and it lets you collaborate on notes that are also written in Markdown.
(Tanja) Brilliant, and what I can say is that it's much faster to write in Markdown than with standard text editors that you may use in different CMS editors. So it's quite a discovery.
(Pawel) Yeah, you don't have to finally, like, go back and forth saying, OK, have I formatted this or can I format that? Even in Microsoft Word, it works differently, ok you have shortcuts for this But it's sometimes a bit trickier, like you can theoretically turn on some kind of heading mode and type in the heading, but it's probably much better to select the text afterwards and format it.
And here you can do it as you go. And it will be formatted straight away, so I can say it's I think we used to do it like that in Microsoft dos like there were there was there were text editors that would let you type in some kind of syntax and you would get the formatting you wanted on the printed page that came out of your printer. But, well, now it's back and it's quite present.
(Mario) Yeah, I have to say that from my point of view, one of the best things regarding the whole story of Simple Note is the fact that you get quite the same experience on whatever platform you choose regarding the accessibility. Which is also very important if you want to if you want to make anything synced between the devices. So, yeah, that's that's really cool.
(Pawel) The only thing I wouldn't recommend doing is working on the same note all at once as a couple of people from my tests I have seen that there were some problems of syncing across different accounts, different people in general, some last days. But definitely if there are 3 people, for example, trying to type something at the same time, just garbage will come out. So they haven't gotten it to the point where you can basically like in Google Docs type multiple things at once and somebody is doing something three lines above you and you're doing something in your line and somebody's three lines below you.
It doesn't work like that, sadly. So it's best if one person works at a time. But then once this person starts typing something, after a while, it gets synchronised so people will be able to see this work quite instantly.
(Mario) OK,
(Tanja) yeah, well, talking about notes and reminders, but reminders are something different. I really like the features of creating a reminder by voice, for example, through Google Home Device and inside the Google home app, you have also the shopping list feature. So it adds you to the shopping list, as we were mentioning the shopping list before. However, if you are an iOS user, you will not get the reminders on your phone only if you have Android because you need to have the Google assistant. And unfortunately, the Google assistant is not available for me. It says that is not available in my country or region. So maybe somewhere else people can get notifications from Google or iOS phone an iPhone. But not for me. But I find it really practical. For example, when I need something on the way, I just say to Google and then it's recorded on the app. But OK, today you can use so many devices and say, so what? Which reminder you would like to have. But I it's a problem if you don't have the same ecosystem and then just the message is lost somewhere.
(Pawl) Mm hmm.
(Tanja) Yeah.
New accessibility features in iOS15 (Tanja) OK, so I suggest to continue with another topic, which is the accessibility features in iOS 15 that is currently better if you would like to test. I did not test iOS myself because I use my phone for work, too, and I would like to be sure that it doesn't crash suddenly or it doesn't work at some point. But what we have found so far are some interesting features like Siri. Apparently will have also offline mode for basic tasks like setting an alarm or a timer, which is quite nice. Then what is also similar to what we have in Seeing AI so I wonder now, because if they're announcing as a novelty of iOS, it seems that it will be available. Also outside of Seeing AI is exploring images and the position of objects, People, text on the image. Apparently these should be now available in inside the images, then, what else? Well, there are many other features, what I find fascinating. One of the features is that now you will have sound controls for some switches. Instead of pressing something, you will be able to create the sound with your mouth and then practically that switch will be activated.
(Pawel) Yes, many of these features, actually, what you mentioned with the image exploring this was actually announced as a part of the Global Accessibility Awareness Day from Apple. And this is really nice that they already make like public announcements and press releases about accessibility features even before releasing the actual system. I really find it exciting that we live in the times where a company actually makes a huge announcement and all the mainstream media pick on about what will happen with VoiceOver. This is so great. Yes, and it's there. You can explore photos. You can even use the rotor to explore by objects. So, for example, you turn by Rohter to the objects and you drug your finger up and down. You will hear about a guitar in the left upper corner, a person with this and that hair and this and that and your face, right lower right corner, and there is a life text feature where it's even useful for people who don't need to use VoiceOver where you basically point your camera at something and it will try to detect any text you can interact with. So if there is a phone number, you will be able to click and call it. If there is an email address, you can click on and write an email. And what apparently somebody achieved with this was scanning a capture code like a text capture, and they were able to solve a capture using just this feature, because you can also do it on your screen.
(Tanja) So I wonder I wonder how secure then this capture is?
(Pawel) Well, this is this is why we are getting all thischoose A car out of five pictures story because the text captures are becoming easier and easier to recognise with simple OCR. But what I also found quite nice, and I think this is a novelty on the market altogether, and I really miss having this in any other ecosystem because I can't use this with my family at the moment. So there is a couple of enhancements to FaceTime, one of them being the spatial audio, which I also quite find nice find quite nice, because it will let you if you have the proper the compatible headphones hear people in space, left, right, centre, according to how they are positioned on the screen. That's how I understand it. And also FaceTime itself should get some quality boost to the sound. And there will be also a way to create external links for people who don't have any Apple device to come on your face time codes pretty much like you do with zoo meetings or teams meetings, which I find also nice because, well, I have been shut out of FaceTime for the last eight years. And then what they also introduced is display feature where you can stream or watch a movie or listen to some music together over a FaceTime call. And the best thing about it is, from what I have read, is that you can actually each party can pick their own audio and image settings, which for us means that my parents who can see would be able to see and watch the film without on your description. And I could pick out the ascription just for myself and we would be able to watch each of us with the settings that we want. Also, you would be able to pick your favourite language version that way. So let's hope that all this major streaming services will implement this feature, because it would be great to start watching content with the settings that you like, because for now, somebody has to compromise and we have to choose how do we do this so that nobody is bothered or nobody is at a loss for some information. What I quite also liked is that apparently what was shown in the keynote was the API for audio graphs. So we had some audio graphs before in the weather app, for example, in the stocks app, and now from what I have heard from the keynotes, anyone, any developer would be able to implement the audiographs in their own app wherever they find it's useful. I think also implementing Rotar actions and or custom rotor categories has become easier because the developers can now declare if they implement any kind of heading or item in an app, they can just say, OK, this element should be a category on the rotor, and to this category, this and this and this. Items will belong, and the person using this VoiceOver will just be able to turn the rotor around in some shopping app and find like discounts or bargain of the day, and they'll be just able to navigate with the up and down finger between the corresponding items to just find anything that belongs to that category.
So I think, as always, it's quite exciting what is happening with VoiceOver and accessibility in general in iOS. And I'm looking forward to seeing this in action. Maybe some of this on my iPod, maybe some of this will see. We'll see.
(Tanja) And then for Partially sighted users, they have also some improvements, like you can customise the accessibility like colour, filter, contrast or font size in particular, particularly in every application. Or you can use your iPhone as a magnifier if you need that. So we're really looking forward to it in September,
(Mario) I have to say that regarding all of this news, which we heard. I am still waiting for the Croatian for Croatian voice to come in the iOS, which will be probably iOS 20 or I don't know when the thing is now that what we are seeing, if everything what we just mentioned is coming to the iOS 15. What I have to say is that, again, we will see a huge a milestone ahead. From the Apple accessibility towards Android, like the features which they're implementing AR. Much, much more advanced than what we currently have in Android. I thought that Google will speed up and learn something from it, but eventually Google never learns. And that's that's kind of kind of unfortunate because iOS 14, brought up the screen recognition and we are still in the Android 12 where they are just maybe saying that it will be announced. But nobody is anything saying publicly, at least officially, publicly. And it's I mean, I don't know.
(Pawel) My impression is that Google is catching up and they are doing great steps, but they're always catching up. And it's it's.
(Mario) But they are always catching up.
(Pawel) Yeah. But let's see, they're making these bigger steps now with the multi finger gestures, like, OK, people have been asking for years, but finally, it's there. It's not like a minor update with some cosmetic changes. It's something really huge for the Google, of course, and iOS is innovating. So that's the difference that Google is catching up. So they are doing big features, big feature announcements, but it's still catching up. And iOS is innovating where they still think like where all the people say noctis is not impossible for blind people to do or this is not this is not going to be accessible. No way. And they are just proving this can be possible.
(Mario) Yeah. I mean, what what I can say publicly here in the podcast is that once I see the apple get the Croatian voice implemented as it's supposed to, I'm I'm moving to the iOS. Because I'm sick and tired of being left behind in the Android world, where we have to wait for some simple things to be implemented. It's it's I mean, it's it's it's not fair.
(Pawel) Yeah. Yeah, I can agree. And I see myself these days also using my iPod more and more for different tasks for some apps that I don't think will ever come to Android for not just accessibility reasons, but all the implementation reasons, some other things. And I just realising that maybe if I had this iPhone, I would be so much more productive. I don't know, because I haven't used it day by day for years. But something tells me it might be the case. And even I had this conversation with some friends recently, and it turns out that what is apparently the case on iOS is that if you have an application of some TV provider or video streaming by default, you are using some kind of default Apple library for presenting video content, which means that by default, you also get the ability to switch voice tracks on your tracks. So if your TV provider offers a or multiple language versions, you'll be able to switch with the rotor because that's what Apple implemented in the player. And most TV providers don't mess with the player. And also, if you have Subtitles VoiceOver, We ripped it up subtitles because that's how the player is made. Some companies, of course, do that. They they mess with things and they implement their own controls and libraries and that doesn't work. But for most who don't care and they just implement it so that it's out there and people can use it. But if you pick some random provider up to watch your TV channels, you will most likely get AD and subtitles read out by VoiceOver. And I find it amazing because on Android, my impression is that everyone can use what they want, which is of course great for freedom and oppressor's purposes. But it also means your accessibility experience would be quite fragmented.
(Mario) Yeah,
(Pawel) and in the end, it's not good, not good for us, for users.
(Mario) And I, I really have the impression that people who are responsible for the development of the accessibility services in general in Google should be a people, OK? My impression is that there should be people with disabilities who are representing the stuff. But OK, they don't have to be necessarily because we can see, for example, from the Apple's side that the person who is responsible for the overall accessibility, representation and management inside the apple knows technically much more than the person who is doing that for Google. And I'm sorry that to say that in public, but I've seen that last podcast, which was published a few weeks ago, where they had the representative from Google talking about the new things which might be coming in the Android and TalkBack. I had the impression that, well, I'm sorry, but that person. Should sit down and learn much, much more than he knows as of right now, like saying publicly, oh, yeah, you know, I'm a sighted person and I never used the Screen reader that much. How is it possible to use. God damn it, man. This is unacceptable. We are in 2021, and if you're working for a company such as Google
Who is, what we said previously, like catching up, This is unacceptable. This is really unacceptable, man, and that's why I said, like, as soon as the iOS starts speaking Croatian, I'm moving away, I'm sorry. I spent on the Android platform ten years. I enjoyed, I still enjoy using the platform, but seeing how much Apple is going fast forward with the accessibility improvements towards towards Google who is all the time catching up, I can't stand it anymore, Sorry. [laughter]
(Pawel) Yeah, I can imagine, can imagine. I don't think I would be able to abandon Android, like, for good because there are some aspects of it that, uhh, I would still enjoy.
(Mario) Of course, there’s the flexibility.
(Pawel) So I think I’d like to keep my old device around, but, uhm, I'm thinking, yeah, just as you, I'm thinking of of the iOS more and more. OK.
(Tanja) OK, so you…
(Pawel) The EBU Access Cast where we started ranting about Android. Haha! Who could have thought?
(Mario) Yeah, yeah.
(Tanja) Yeah. So you'll be on the dark side then. [laughter]
(Mario, in a dark voice) We'll be on the dark siiiide!
(Pawel) Apples are red last time I checked.
[everyone laughs]
(Mario) Yeah
(Tanja) maybe green. [laughter]
(Pawel) Some of them, yeah.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) OK.
Windows 11 accessibility announcement Well, well, let's continue with another operating system. Otherwise we will start to fight here, I see as things are evolving. Microsoft and Windows 11, but we don't have much information on accessibility features. Actually, on the on June 24th, when Windows 11 was announced, there was no mention of accessibility. And the…
(Mario) No, on that day there was nothing. They didn’t mention anything about it.
(Tanja) Yes, and I have to say this is quite disappointing because if you announce an operating system, you should announce their accessibility features, too, because persons with disabilities are also users as anyone else, but it's not only, but we know very well that accessibility features are not only for persons with disabilities, that the same features can benefit anyone, usability in general; but Okay. Then, afterwards, some more information were published on accessibility features, but actually not many. There is an article on the Microsoft website “What's new in Windows Eleven?”. First of all, they say that this operating system will be the most accessible from all other previous operating system from Microsoft, but I didn't see much arguments for this. They said that Narrator will support Azure servers and that captions will be redesigned, that voice typing will be better supported; but this is really in general, we don't have much concrete information. But of course, if you're curious and if you would like to test it yourself already knowing that the operating system is not stable, you can already test the beta, beta version of Windows 11. Uhh, no, actually it’s not beta, it's Preview, its Preview.
(Mario) Yeah, well, it’s a Preview, which is basically a beta.
(Tanja) Yes.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) Um, on… If you are subscribed to the Windows Insider program, then you can test it. However, since there will be even another update in Windows 10, I would suggest maybe to wait for it a bit and see what the accessibility will be implemented there.
(Mario) Yeah, the thing about the the whole updating procedure of Windows 11, the things that you will not be able to update unless you have your hardware as well. So right now, right now, and but this might change, but right now they're saying that if you have hardware, which is no longer than five years old, you will be able to update, but if you have anything that's more than five years old, you will not be able to update with Windows 11. And you will be absolutely fine to use Windows 10, because currently the support for Windows 10 is until 2025, so you are absolutely safe to use the same hardware for the next four years. That’s, that's OK. And what we know so far is that all the Screen readers will be updated to the some small features, even though they work more or less even now, like, let's say 95% fine with Windows 11, um, from what I was able to see from some podcasts from the other people which were demonstrating how current beta works. Pawel, What do you think about it?
(Pawel) What I found especially exciting in the accessibility announcement, and it's a pity it didn't come straight away, but after some time; but seeing that Microsoft normally does a really good job at promoting accessibility
(Mario) Yeah
(Pawel) and disability awareness, I just hope it was, let's say, unfortunate accident; they announced that quite likely, uh, with the new version of WSL2, which is the Linux overlay for Windows, or like a sort of Linux you can run inside Windows, you will be able to access the graphical interface applications and they said it also should work with Screen readers, so it means that at least with Narrator and I hope they will expose the API so that other screen readers can support it too,
(Mario) Yeah
(Pawel) you should be able to run and and access Linux apps on Windows. Aaand…
(Mario) Hmm, which might be interesting for some apps, yeah.
(Pawel) Yeah, from what I heard, apparently some mathematics, especially in sciences and IT and mathematics studies, there are some apps that are really well accessible under Linux and you might need them and they’re really optimal…
(Mario) Mhm…
(Pawel) which you can’t find on the Windows. But, uhh… There is also pidgin, for example, the messaging app that works better under Linux than it does on the Windows and some other things, I guess, but also one of the features that will be there on Windows 11 is the ability to run Android apps natively. They mentioned…
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, that's, kind of, uh, oh, so so because I thought when they were mentioning that you will be able to run the native Android apps, I thought that you will be able to do that from the Google Play Store.
(Mario) Yes.
(Mario) which is not the case even… eventually.
(Pawel) Mhm. Nah, there is just the Amazon Store mentioned at the moment.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Pawel) and I think I saw some articles about sideloading and I guess even if it's not official, somebody will find a way to sideload things from APK files sooner or later.
(Mario) True, even though the Android is also changing in that, uh, in that regard from August, like…
(Pawel) Mhm.
(Mario) Uh, Google is going to kind of close, shut down these APK files as we know it, so we will see how it will be updated.
(Pawel) Yeah, but well, in the end, some Android apps will be available there on Windows 10 and in the accessibility announcement, they also said that they can't really say much at the moment because it's still being discussed, finalised and whatnot, but the hint to my, in my opinion, was there that they might be also making them accessible for at least Narrator, which, if it's true, would mean that inside one machine with one operating system, you should be able to accessibly run apps for three operating systems.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Pawel) And this is quite unique and I can imagine myself using some of the Android apps or Linux apps regularly on the Windows; and I'm quite looking forward to see what comes out of this, because then, yeah, it would make it so much… our horizon so much wider because well, as we know, as a blind person, the more systems and screen reader combinations you have, the more things you can access sadly, so hopefully...
(Mario) Sure, yeah… I mean, surely you will be able, for example, to load the VoiceView from the Amazon store, which is a forked TalkBack.
(Pawel) Mm hmm.
(Mario) And from there, you would be able to, well, install anything else that's available on the, uh, Amazon store.
(Pawel) Yeah. So, yeah, that means it's a it's a multisystem that we are probably getting and I'm quite excited about this.
(Mario) Aa, that's why I have my spare machine. I realise now, OK. [laughter]
(Pawel) Yeeah, mm hmm… For all the dirty experiments that might go wrong
(Mario) Yeah, yeah…
(Tanja) [laughs]
(Mario) But if it goes wrong on the other machine, it's not that tragical, like…
(Pawel) Exactly! [laughter]
(Mario) as if you would have just one machine and then everything can go wrong, as I have seen it in the past. Yeah.
(Pawel) mhm. so it's old, but not older than five years. That's good.
(Mario) No, no. My computer is from 2017, the older one, so it's still legitimate.
(Pawel) Hmm.
(Tanja) Well, good, then you will keep us updated in in the future episodes.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, we can even do some demos in the future.
(Tanja) Yes, yes, yes, of course.
NVDA 2021.1 Released Then we have the new release of NVDA 2021.1. There are there are many updates, but we have to warn the listeners that actually many addons will not be compatible from the very start. Either you need to update the addon or you have to wait, uh, that a certain addon will support the new version of NVDA.
(Mario) Yeah, keep in mind that some of them will not get updated. That's also, uh, what I have seen on Twitter.
(Tanja) Yes.
(Mario) So if you depend on such addons, it's up to you to decide whether you wish to update or not.
(Tanja) Yes, absolutely, but, well, sometimes you need to update. All the changes and bug fixes can be, uh, read on the NVDA website, so what is new for that specific release. What I find very practical, maybe it's not really the main change, but what I find practical is that you can close now Speech Viewer with alt+F4, so you don’t have to go in Tools and then toggle it there to turn it off; and there are many, many updates regarding browsers and the Office Outlook, uhh, so… I don’t know.
(Mario) And Excel especially also. So…
(Tanja) Yes, and Excel too.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) Actually, I updated my NVDA today, also because addon reasons, so I didn't have really much time to experiment a lot in NVDA. What about you, Pawel?
(Pawel) I have to make sure that I update all the stuff, but the good news that is there is that some of the addons don't really require many changes. Sometimes it's enough to just change the maximum version tested in the Manifest file, and some of the addons will run this way, for instance, the addon, the Clock addon, many people liked it and many people…
(Mario) Yeah, yeah.
(Pawel) saw that there was no update and well, how should we go on if the NVDA is there but the addon has no updates?; but it turns out if you modify the manifest to say, well, the last version tested with 2020 even 4… 2021.4
(Mario) Yeah, yeah.
(Pawel) or some higher version, it will just let you go, so you can see if maybe the addon that you're missing can work with this trick.
(Mario) Aach…, okay…
(Pawel) but of course…
(Tanja) Can it crash NVDA?
(Pawel) Uhh…
(Tanja) if it doesn't work?
(Pawel) I don't think so. It will just, I think, it will just say that some function is missing. Maybe the addon will just go disabled.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) Hmm. OK.
(Pawel) It will not load. It will not load or perform something but. Yeah, you can experiment on some portable copy if you're worried about this, for instance.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Pawel) but that's a policy change they made apparently, that now every first version of the year will be the version in which some major python changes will be made and this means that every year that the addons will require an update to function, which is a change that OK, I understand on one side that they need to make the updates, on the other hand, we will see how many developers actually care about their addons in this way because….
(Mario) That's true, that's true. I have I've seen also a bunch of developers who were very angry about it.
(Pawel) Mm hmm.
(Mario) On Twitter. So, yeah, we will see. For my personal situation is that I have maybe three addons which are not working for the moment, but I’ll try that trick which you suggested later, so maybe they might they might be working. The only one which I really miss is the Switchsynth addon, which I really like, and I have seen Tyler Spivey shouting on Twitter that [in a shouting voice] he will not update his addons because this whole procedure is broken and blah, blah, blah. I don't I don't know. I'm not currently developing so can’t say much about it, but yeah, that's that's the one of the addons which I would like to see updated, because eventually if you are using multiple languages and multiple synths and you depend on that, it’s… it can be very good, because yeah…
(Pawel) You can't possibly replace this with profiles, right?
(Mario) No, no, no. That's that's a different thing.
(Tanja) Well, talking about addons, there is also an addon to make sure that the sound is not muted when you’re starting NVDA, so the addon is called NVDA Unmute and you can find it on the repository of NVDA addons, and I think for us sometimes it can be really, really important that, um, the sound doesn't go away, is not off or there is the problem with the soundcards, so NVDA with this addon checks if the sound comes from the card and so makes sure that you can hear NVDA.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, I absolutely agree. In some situations this can be a lifesaver, so. It seems like, for example, right now, as we're recording the podcast and stuff, we are dealing with multiple soundcards and it can happen that sometimes your NVDA goes accidentally to the other soundcard where you don't want to and stuff like that; and with this NVDA Unmute addon, you can specify in its settings which soundcard will be your default one and where the speech will go, so basically you can then every time when you restart NVDA, to revert back to your soundcard and it will check if it's muted, it will unmute it and you are, let's say ,you're safe to go. I mean, of course, there are situations where something else might go wrong, but this might solve a bunch of problems.
(Tanja) Mhm.
(Mario) So yeah, it’s good to have it.
(Tanja) Absolutely, even though today is much easier than some time ago, because today we have BeMyEyes even if you're stuck,
(Mario) Mhm. Yeah, yeah, sure.
(Tanja) You can call Microsoft if if
(Mario) if your connection is stable enough.
[laughter]
(Tanja) Exactly. But…
(Pawel) That might be a problem, yes.
(Tanja) Well, you have much more possibilities than before.
(Mario) But it's true, yeah.
(Tanja) Yes.
(Pawel) yeah. Speaking of addons, I actually recommend everyone to sometimes go on Github and Github.com/search, even, the Github is this one-stop-shop for source code of different things and people sharing open source projects. And if you type NVDA in the search there, you will find some addons that are being worked on or that are not really ready to be published in… or are not going to be published in the official on the official website yet, and you can see what people are working on; and it's quite fascinating to see what addons are being worked on and we don't even know about this, like one that I find very useful is called Volume Adjustment,
(Tanja) Mhm.
(Pawel) and it's an addon where you can, using specific shortcuts, control the volume of each app that is currently running on your computer and also each soundcard, and also you can switch between different soundcards with your NVDA also with a shortcut.
(Mario) Mhm.
(Pawel) And I find it really useful like, I host radio shows sometimes and it's important for me to switch NVDA to another soundcard so I can keep control of the of the music or my my guests online if I do remote interviews.
(Mario) Sure
(Pawel) And NVDA is on the one soundcard, my spare soundcard, and everything else that goes on the radio is on the main soundcard, and then I have a quick overview: OK, this is too loud, this is too quiet, umm, NVDA is going through the wrong, wrong soundcard, I can quickly switch it, I don't have to go through all the settings and this really makes work much easier. But it's not just that. Actually, there are a lot of other addons that you can find. Not all of them are in English, sadly, but if you have some translation software, you can manage this. For instance, I recently found a nice Spanish addon, which lets you quickly preview multimedia files on your system, so if you're in the Windows Explorer and you have highlighted some song or recording, you can quickly press some shortcut key and it will start playing it for you and you can rewind, skip backwards, forwards. You can see how much time is left on this file; so for quickly looking through huge libraries of sound effects, or if you want to quickly take a look at some recording, if it's the right volume and how long it is and so on, it it's very practical. And some people complain that NVDA is turning into some kind of all-purpose software and not screen reader, but I think normally you would probably download a hundred different small exe files with different tools and programmes that you would run to accomplish the same tasks and, and why do that If you can integrate this in NVDA addons and you can have one program even on your pendrive and just copy it over to another machine and you have all the tools there, or you can run it on some guest machine that you're fixing or doing something on temporarily and you can still use your little tools there; and what you can find on Github is often examples of such little tools. So you can take a look there or you can take a look at some of the community webpages of NVDA in different languages. There is the French one, the Italian one, the Spanish one, the Russian one, and you will also find some addons that are not there on the official website.
(Mario) Sure, yeah.
(Pawel) and some of them are quite interesting, I must say.
(Mario) Yeah. For example, like the one that this French guy is developing for the Audacity.
(Pawel) Mm hmm.
(Mario) It's it's actually it has its own auto-update feature as well.
(Pawel) Yeah. The same person actually makes a huge addon, it's called NVDA Extension Global, which is, like, uh, again a Swiss Army knife for different things that NVDA doesn't have. so, for example, you have very extended list of elements on the website, like, NVDA by default offers you, I don’t know, headings, links, landmarks and something else, and there you have like twenty different elements and you can just choose one and you can navigate you can see this on the list and just pick one.
(Mario) Aach…
(Pawel) or you have the ins+F11 systraylist integrated, there is something with how different keys on the keyboard are pronounced. You can modify this and many more features that you can just implement with one single addon and you can switch each of them on and off individually, so it's quite interesting concept.
(Tanja) Great suggestion, Pawel. Thank you.
(Mario) Yes.
RHVoice TTS (Tanja) OK, then after NVDA, let's focus on another open source TTS that is currently under development for different languages and Mario you have more information about that.
(Mario) Yeah, actually, it's not totally new. It exists for a while now, I would say for almost ten years. It is called the RHVoice and originally it was developed for Russia, for Russian languages, but very shortly it, as it’s open source, it started catching up the other languages because it's able to integrate different voice files recorded; so I remember the first time I used it long time ago, maybe 2012, 2013 and it… at that time it was using just like I, I was I was using English voices and I think it, yeah, it could speak Russian; and I really liked what it… how it sounded, but right now, they started developing it for the other platforms, it's not only available as the NVDA addon, you can install it as the SAPI5 under Windows, so if you want to convert your text to speech books, you can do that because there are those free converters for the text to audio files; and you can also install it under Linux, so it's available for for Linux and there is also a version which runs quite well under Android as well, so you can use… install all of the voices. Now they are supporting eight languages, and what I found for the moment is that they developed a new voice for Macedonian language, actually, it's North Macedonia now, technically speaking, uh, and I was very much surprised by the quality of the voice so… And then I decided to write to developers to see what's going on and how is it possible to integrate it to the other languages, and I got the answer that they're right now working with a third party company called Louder Pages, and they specialised in producing the open source voice libraries for different languages, so if you want to get in touch, you have to write to them if you want to have it localised for your language. What I Immediately thought about was giving suggestion to hlynur so that people from Iceland, as they're finishing their project, with the… with their open source Icelandic library, they could get in touch with people from RHVoice so that at the end they get a finalised product quite soon, I would say, so, yeah, it's it's it's really it's really good. The last updates that they produced also for Android are working much better than the previous version which I had, so, yeah, there there are some some people who are doing nice, nice open source stuff and it's, you know, those new voices, they can show that not only the stuff that is open source sounds like trash, it can sound good, so…
(Tanja) Actually, I wanted to ask you, what's the sound of these voices?
[jingle]
(Alan, one of the English voices) Voice Alan. RHVoice is a free and open source speech synthesizer. RHVoice uses statistical parametric synthesis. It relies on existing open source speech technologies (mainly HTS and related software). Voices are built from recordings of natural speech. They have small footprints, because only statistical models are stored on users' computers. And though the voices lack the naturalness of the synthesizers which generate speech by combining segments of the recordings themselves, they are still very intelligible and resemble the speakers who recorded the source material.
[Voice BDL???] Voice BDL??? RHVoice is a free and open source speech synthesizer. RHVoice uses statistical parametric synthesis. It relies on existing open source speech technologies (mainly HTS and related software). Voices are built from recordings of natural speech. They have small footprints, because only statistical models are stored on users' computers. And though the voices lack the naturalness of the synthesizers which generate speech by combining segments of the recordings themselves, they are still very intelligible and resemble the speakers who recorded the source material.
[Voice CLB???] Voice CLB???. RHVoice is a free and open source speech synthesizer. RHVoice uses statistical parametric synthesis. It relies on existing open source speech technologies (mainly HTS and related software). Voices are built from recordings of natural speech. They have small footprints, because only statistical models are stored on users' computers. And though the voices lack the naturalness of the synthesizers which generate speech by combining segments of the recordings themselves, they are still very intelligible and resemble the speakers who recorded the source material.
[Voice AVGEN???] Voice AFGEN??? RHVoice is a free and open source speech synthesizer. RHVoice uses statistical parametric synthesis. It relies on existing open source speech technologies (mainly HTS and related software). Voices are built from recordings of natural speech. They have small footprints, because only statistical models are stored on users' computers. And though the voices lack the naturalness of the synthesizers which generate speech by combining segments of the recordings themselves, they are still very intelligible and resemble the speakers who recorded the source material.
[Voice SLT??/] Voice SLT??? RHVoice is a free and open source speech synthesizer. RHVoice uses statistical parametric synthesis. It relies on existing open source speech technologies (mainly HTS and related software). Voices are built from recordings of natural speech. They have small footprints, because only statistical models are stored on users' computers. And though the voices lack the naturalness of the synthesizers which generate speech by combining segments of the recordings themselves, they are still very intelligible and resemble the speakers who recorded the source material.
[Voice Kiko] A text in Macedonian???
[jingle]
(Mario) There’s…??? so, for example, uhmm, if you choose English language, there are like three or four voices available right now and you can see that some of them were developed like, I don’t know, fifteen years ago and some of them were developed relatively recently; so those that were relatively, relatively recently developed sound really good, and I'm just going back to the North Macedonian voice, which really sounds good. I was, I was very much surprised.
(Pawel) How does the procedure for creating your own language and voice look like now? I remember from some years ago that you had to auto-generate random sentences from the Wikipedia of your language, so that there is a good enough sample of text to read for the speaker. You had to ask a speaker who preferably would have a good voice and some voiceover skills already, recording audio books or voice acting or something of that sort; and this person would read all the sentences, preferably in studio conditions. Is it still the same procedure?
(Mario) Uhh, I cannot tell you anything else right now as I just exchanged a few emails with them and we didn't come to this point so I.
(Pawel) Mmhm.
(Mario) I cannot tell you. What what I can tell you is that this company told me that right now they are looking for some kind of sponsorship so that the final product can be made an open source, but the people who will work on the product will be paid, which is understandable completely. On the other hand, if you have a sponsorship for somebody, you can see that the quality of the product will be will be better and you'll be higher, and that's eventually the thing which we can see because the same company is developing a few more voices they have in the pipeline, the other voice which they have is a Portuguese, Brazilian Portuguese, and it also sounds really good. I mean, not I'm not speaking Portuguese, but from what I was able to understand for the voice quality, just itself, it really sounded good; and I saw that they have Albanian in the pipeline and who knows what what other languages. Right now, we are… I'm… I’m talking to them to see which one might be like transitional thing, which… because I would like to have it also developed for Croatian, so right now we are talking about possible, like, a quick fix to adjust this North Macedonian voice to learn how to pronounce Croatian with a few different changes for the consonants which we have and maybe some external??? things, because eventually right now, if you let it read Croatian with the Macedonian voice, it really sounds very usable, so I would say that if we want to have some quick fix, it might be done in a few few weeks, but we'll see.
(Pawel) Well, good luck with that. We'll have to see what can be done about Polish. We have plenty of voices, that's true, but seeing that all these companies, the big companies that used to offer really good voices, they go out of business, (by the way, Acapela is abandoning their Infovox product), so I think the SAPI voices will be gone soon and more of more of the market moving towards this cloud-based AI voices
(Mario) Mhm.
(Pawel) which are not really suited well… suited well for Screen reading use, it would be good to have some open source alternative just for this purpose and I’m …
(Mario) I agree, I agree, yes.
(Pawel) looking quite worried at the future because it seems like TTS has become mainstream and you would think it's a good thing for us because more people are aware, but in the end, everybody is thinking of company-wide use of replacing human work for the PBX’es and announcements and whatnot with voices; but Screen reading use is somehow fading away and you see fewer and fewer products targeting that case, use-case.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, uhh, one of the things which I really found good about those RHVoices is the fact that for the moment, and I think that it's their plan is that they will not integrate any kind of dictionaries into it, so which is the problem with the other companies such as Vocalizer.
(Pawel) Mhm.
(Mario) So what's really happening is that, if you use RHVoice, you will get the content displayed on the screen as it is, I mean, it will be spoken as it is visually and displayed on the screen, which personally I found very important for me.
(Pawel) Yes, I agree, because even Espeak is doing some minimal amount of guesswork and it has some rules implemented to make it sound more language-agnostic and these attempts don't really work, and you hear really mangled names of music bands sometimes or words that are even proper words in your language but because there is some kind of rule for a particular combination of characters…
(Mario) Yeah, yeah.
(Pawel) it's mispronounced, and I don't think it should be the standard for TTS voices to do that.
(Tanja) Absolutely agree.
Farewell [The sounds of the sea in the background]
(Tanja) And OK, actually, this leads us to the end of this episode. I wish you a very nice summer break. I hope you enjoy the holidays. Well-deserved holidays, and some of us will be able to travel finally after a long, long, long period.
(Mario) Yuuuu!
(Tanja) so enjoy sun, enjoy the beach and talk to you in six weeks after summer. Yes.
(Mario) Yeah, see you in September.
(Tanja) See you in September. Yes.
(Pawel) See you, hear you, meet you.
(Tanja) Bye!
(Pawel) Bye!
(Mario) Bye!
(Outro)
(Jingle)
Thank you for listening the EBU Access Cast.
If you want to contact us you can send us an e-mail to ebuaccesscast@euroblind.org or find us on Twitter @EbuAccessCast.
It is almost summer, but we are not giving up, in fact we came to the Episode 31 of the Ebu Access Cast, and boy we found many different topics to discuss. However if you think that you herd anything, no no you didn't because we have a Special interview for you about Navilense which you can hear towards the end of the Episode.
But at the beginning Pawel said that he found a nice iOS app called Replica which allows iOS user to make audio and Video stream thru their Browser, and Mario told us his positive Opinion about newest generation of the Svarovsky white cane which is very different than the previous canes from the same Brand.
After gadgets we talked about Twitter and different ways how you can use it, thru its native interface and a bunch of integrated shortcuts which you can find in the very nice Review, as well as Usage of 3rd party clients for Twitter.
Different Messenger clients are todays Standard in the comunication, but are they equally accessible? Mario Talked about Whatsapp web set of scripts which are being developed by blind developer Juliano Lopes which bring up more accessibility features into Whatsapp web while using it thru your Browser, and Pawel found out the Add-on for NVDA for desktop version of Whatsapp Client. We touched the topic of accessibility of Telegram for Android and iOS as s Signal which became very populär in the last few months.
Since we mentioned many different Messengers we thought that its the best time tob ring you the news that Clubhouse became available for Android, and Mario introduced Clubdeck, very accessible unoficial Clubhouse Client to the general audience. However if you thought that this is everything from us for todays döse of how to comunicate, wait a second. Pawel is also having the anouncement about Elten, new very advanced audio Network from Poland for blind people.
It As the Summer started to show its strenght, it looks like that after a long long time of not being able to travel, we will be able to do that with new Covid green passports, and in the next article you can read more about itt.
After all the topics which we had, it is a time for dezert, and that is the interview about Navilense, very nice System which uses specially made QR codes developed to help blind people to use them in so many different ways. CEO and founder of the Navilense company Mr. Javier PIta gave exclusive interview to Hlynur and Pawel and Tanja prepared also a Short demo of their newest feature called Navilense 360.
In this Episode we prepared so many things for you, but now its time for you to tell us what do you think about it. As always contact us on Twitter or send us e-mail and we will look forward to be back with you in 6 weeks just at the end of July.
Transcript of EBU Access Cast - episode 31 (jingle)
This programme is financially supported by the fundings from the European Commission.
You are listening to the EBU Access Cast. The official podcast from European Blind Union about assistive technology for blind and partially sighted people.
And here is our host.
Introduction (Mario) Welcome to the 31st first EBU Access Cast. My name is Mario Perčinić and I'm coming to you from Luxembourg and this time we have the whole crew with me. As always here is Tanja Kleut from Luxembourg, as we say. Ladies first. Hello.
(Tanja) Hello Mario. Hello, everyone.
(Mario) Then we have Pawel Masarchyk from … where is he … aha I see him in Austria.
(Pawel) Hello. Hello.
(Mario) And we have the most famous ouslander… no no Icelander. (everyone laughs) From Iceland. Yeah. From Iceland mr. Hlynur Agnarsson.
(Hlynur) Hello, sir. Hello there. Happy to be here.
(Mario) Yes. How are you guys.
(everyone) good, fine.
(Pawel): Fine, everything reopening the summer. How could you not be happy.
(Mario) Yes. Summer. Summer is slowly coming back. I almost got into the global depression and it was winter was never ending here in Luxembourg. Here was really cold until a few days ago. But yeah, now it's much better.
So what's coming in today's podcast? First we go to the gadgets corner and after gadgets corner, we will talk about Twitter and its usability in its native interface and third party clients. After that, we will talk about messengers. Yes, (Mario singing Iggy pop parody I am a messenger). A messenger. Yes. How how do you use them and which ones are more accessible or less accessible or what somebody did to make them more accessible. Then we will talk about Clubhouse for Android. And we will also touch the topic about new thing which is happening right now. And these are the digital covid green passports. And the last but not least. But yes, it's last, its famous interview from Hlynur and Pawel About NaviLens. Yes, we finally got in touch with people from NaviLens and we will bring you the whole story with Mr. Javier Pita, Barcelona, Spain. He will tell us all about. The thing related toNaviLens, so we hope you will enjoy it. So what's new actually? Do we have some gadgets before we go into anything further?
(Hlynur) No, nothing from me, not this time.
Gadgets and apps: Replica, an app to share video and audio from iOS to Airplay and Chrome (Pawel) Yeah, sorry, I don't have anything new either as far as hardware, but I discovered a tiny, nice app that is very handy to use, especially if you do a lot of accessibility demonstrations. And not only it's for iOS, it's called Replica and it lets you stream any audio coming from your iOS device, including VoiceOver, either via any airplay compatible device or via your Internet browser, preferably Chrome. I tested it. It is very easy to set up. You just install it open and copy the IP address into your computer's browser and allow the access once you are connected and then you can hear everything in your computer and see as well. So the picture is also there. But for us, in some cases, the sound is even more important and that comes through very clearly, sometimes with a bit of a delay. But for presentations like this, it could be quite useful.
(Tanja) Yes, I wanted to ask you for the delay, is it a lot?
(Pawel) I wouldn't compose music with it, but for demonstrating how VoiceOver works or for playing some multimedia that is only available on an iOS device, I think it's fine. So it's still serves its purpose.
(Tanja) Ok, that's nice because sometimes I had Bluetooth speakers on my demonstrations and the delay was too too much. It was like two seconds and when you want to have an interactive demo, it's impossible to follow that.
(Pawel) Yeah, it happens, especially if the sighted people can see that you moved something on a screen. But the audio doesn't correspond at once to us,
(mario) But is more noticeable with the older Bluetooth devices. For example, Bluetooth5, which is now being the standard, doesn't have that lag so much really. I do have a Bluetooth 5 headset Android five compatible phone and I almost don't have any kind of lag which was previously noticeable when you would use Bluetooth headsets with the phones. But now it's fine.
(pawel) Also your Android shouldn't go to sleep or your speech on Android.
(Mario) That's true.
(Pawel) You activate. There is no second or two of silence before TalkBack kicks in in the middle of a sentence that has to happen.
(Mario) That's still kind of happening, but it's not that annoying as it used to be. That's why, for example, if you're using Lazarillo app for theGPS, that's why they have this tiny, tiny sound before any announcement comes to be spoken. So then it's more, more or less. It's fine. It's usable.
Oh, yeah. Good. Well, thanks Pawel for this recommendation for the app.
Gadgets and apps: Mario's new Svarovsky Cane (Mario) I have something that can belong to a gadget's, but it's actually a low tech device, but low tech that we use every day as a blind people and it's a cane! Believe it or not.
(Hlynur) Hurricane.
(Mario) Yes. You see that song from Eurovision Group? No. What was it
(Hlynur) That was Hurricane?
(Mario) Yeah. No, this is a cane for blind people to walk around. It's a walking cane. Yeah. And believe it or not, it's the newest generation from Svarovsky canes. I know we have some listeners who are listening to our podcast. And a few years ago, I was very much criticising the first generation of the Svarovsky canes, which I still do. But the last one that I got my hands on really surprised me very positively. So, yes, they completely redesigned their canes, which is great. They're much more stable, meaning that. Every part of the cane, for example, if you have the cane that's folding, so every part of the cane is no longer conical , now it has it looks much more like, for example, the Ambutech canes or the canes from Comde Derenda or something like that. So the parts slide into each other much better and they're much more safer. But at the same time, when you have to dismantle them, they are much better. It's much more stable on the same side. The whole cane is still aluminium-based, but over the outer part of every part of the cane , there is this white foil around the cane, which is showing to the sighted people that it's a white cane and it's very well done. I have to say, because those kind of tactile markings on the cane. And the mechanism for the extensions, for example, I have the combination of cane, which is a partly folding cane, and this upper part is telescopic.
So I can make it shorter or longer. That part has been redesigned as well, and it looks now much more like, let's say, some canes from the other brands. And it's yeah, I really like it. I have it for about a month now. At the beginning, I started using it for just longer walks in the park when I go. And after very extensive usage of that, I use it for a month, I have to say that I'm really surprised by. The cane, the price wise, yeah, it's about 100 euros or maybe a little bit less, but it's worth it. Yeah, I really like it. It's not very heavy. It's about 200 grams or maybe a little bit more. And you can use with it the tips, the roller tips which come by the default fromSvarovsky, or you can also use the hook once, from the Ambutech, such as a longmileage , which you can use for for a long time, there are slight modifications which you need to do with that ambutech tips, if you use them because they don't fit by default. So you have to use some sand paper and stuff. But it's it's very doable. After that. It fits very nicely. And you're ready to go. So that's good. I don't know Pawel Have you seen those new Svarovsky canes or any anybody else?
(Pawel) Oh, I haven't, actually. But there is some pretty good
(Hlynur) You have diamonds on them?
(Mario) I don't know, I haven't found them yet.
(Hlynur) So could be.
(Mario)There may be, but I think this is some other Swarovski.
(Pawel) Actually Swarovsky is not far from where I am right now. It's just the next city. And you can visit the Crystal Factory, which is now a museum as well. Quite an overwhelming experience, even from the sound perspective. The chambers are quite acoustic in different ways. So, yeah, it's definitely a feast for anybody, regardless of impairments.
(Mario) Nice.
(Mario) Yeah. So this is the news from the new Svarovsky canes for you. As I said, I really like them. And yeah, I got mine with a wooden handle. They also provide different kind of handles if you're buying them, such as the handle with the neoprene or with the leather. But the wooden ones are also being redesigned and which fit fits quite okay in the end. And you can use it for a few hours. No problem. So that's good. Yeah. OK, so time to go after the gadgets to our new section.
(Accessibility in the news jingle) Accessibility of the Twitter Web Interface (Mario) The first thing, before messengers, actually is a social network, and you guessed it right, yes, it's Twitter. And why Twitter? Well, because Twitter can be now used from various points??? and various machines and various phones, meaning that, for example, if you're using Twitter on the PC, you can use it from the Web interface and from the third party clients or even the official apps if they're accessible, however, there are some differences and there are also some articles which we will publish in our show notes, basically the one that I'm referring to is the one that was published on the Blind Bargains recently, that talked about how to use Twitter via its native, uhh, interface with a bunch of its built-In shortcuts. I have to say, I use it when I have to, it's a nice experience, it's nice that Twitter made that thing available. It's not new, I have to say at the beginning. It’s not new, it's something that exists over for for some time, but it was the thing that was expanding, so not all the features and shortcuts were available so far. And it is using…
(Hlynur) They were lacking. They were definitely lacking that in that aspect.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they were. And they’re… since… Twitter is out since… wow! What was that, 2003 or 4? And this native interface became accessible just a few years ago. Before that, there were some sites that were trying to, to gap between those stuff, but now the Twitter can be used, and in order to do that with a Screen reader, you have to use bunch of shortcuts which they provide and they have to be used with the browse mode, if you use the NVDA or with with JAWS, it's also a forms mode so that you are able to use… The… there are, like, shortcuts, which has to be pressed multiple key… You have to press multiple combinations in order to achieve that, for example, to go home, you have to press, uhh, G and an H or to go to Settings G and S and stuff like that, but it's usable, uhh, however, sometimes there are situations where you have to switch between this forms mode on and off to scroll through the tweets and stuff, but it's yeah, it's kind of okay if you have to use it; but what do you think guys, the rest of you, who u… who tried… have you tried it and have you used it? And I know that Tanja, you are a frequent user of those.
(Tanja) I am. Actually I am using the Web interfaces since few years ago, and I prefer it because in some other third party apps, you don't have some views that should be there but they are not for some reason, for example, what I like in the Web interface, you can easily see the replies while, for example, in the other that I'm using too, TWBlue, it's more difficult or very often it's not available; or when you have a retweet, you see every retweet, you don't see the number “retweeted 100 times”, but you see every time, so you read it each time. I don't know if you can adjust it differently. I didn't go into that. I mean, in w… TWBlue.
(Mario) No, there's no it's not possible to adjust it.
(Tanja) So for me, that was really disturbing, and, errrm, for this and some other reasons, I prefer the Web. I remember that it wasn't possible to see multiple accounts before on the Web, but now this is possible.
(Mario) Yeah, and you can even enable the notifications to have to have the announcements.
(Tanja) You can. You can. I don't use the notifications because I don't want to be disturbed any time. I use the notifications through my mobile phone and that is fine. Also, some other functionalities are missing from third party apps like pinning a tweet that you can do very easily through through the Web or through the mobile app; so most of the time I'm using the Web or the mobile app. For example, for the direct messages I think for me the most easy is to use the, uhmm, the mobile app because for some reason in TWBlue, when I have a more intensive conversation, the messages from the other person,are just not arriving. I don't know if you have ever experienced it for those who are using TWBlue.
(Mario) I don't know. Not really, not really. They were… There were some yes, I noticed sometimes that there are some delays in…
(Tanja) yes,
(Mario) In deliveries.
(Tanja) If you have an extensive conversation, you know, if you're chatting, it's, uhh, it's impossible to chat through TWBlue.
(Paweł) Yyyyeah, It used to be better in previous years when Twitter still offered its streaming API for third party clients and then they were pretty famous for making a very stable, very feature-rich API that you could just use to build any kind of interface over it.
(Mario) Mhm.
(Paweł) Then they took it away and so the s… all the streaming features, which is why we don't have replies and direct messages in real time and neither do we have tweets in real time, we don't have notifications that somebody liked our tweet or that somebody followed us or anything, any event that happens to us, it's not announced by these clients. They plan to bring it back, but well, that's actually an interesting take on accessibility in general. Of course, universal accessibility for the win, I do agree, but I still see when I look at GitHub, that building custom third party clients for accessibility for for blind community is pretty much a common practice and I see that a lot of blind people will still choose a custom-made client over even very well, very good accessible website or or proprietary client of the social network, and Twitter used to be famous for this, they allowed you to do pretty much anything, almost anything you wanted with the API, then they stopped doing this, now they want to sort of bring it back, for some smaller projects even for free, but I haven't heard any updates on this for a while, so…
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, yeah, the only thing I'm personally missing, maybe I didn't find it, but I don't think it's there in the native Twitter interface when you're on the web, is that Events tab.
(Tanja) Events or notifications?
(Mario) Events, events,
(Tanja) Events,
(Mario) For example, that you can see some kind of chronological follow ups what's happened like this person has followed you, this person has liked your tweet, blah, blah, blah.
(Paweł) This should come in thethe fications, actually, that's what it does on the phone.
(Tanja) Exactly.
(Mario) Yeah
(Tanja) Normally I see this in notifications on the web,
(Mario) OK
(Tanja) but it's true that on the phone I have events, but this is not notifications. This is something else.
(Mario) Because this is…
(Pawel) Yeah
(Mario) I see the difference between notifications and events or maybe now they kind of unified it under notifications. It's possible. I don't know. But yeah…
(Paweł) I think events were a bit more common terminology when the API was still around because they were, in fact, API events.
(Mario) Ach, yeah, it could be, it could be.
(Paweł) In that IT sense. So some Third-Party developers choose to name them events for that reason, I guess. But now events would be something like something is happening in the world and Twitter is discussing this, And and I think they have this Moments feature, which is more or less something like this; but for the notifications like this, yeah, hopefully you will get them under notifications on the on the web.
(Mario) Ok, so that’s…
(Tanja) Yes, and since we are talking about the web is G and then N. [laughter] It is the shortcut.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, For the notifications, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
(Tanja) The shortcut is G and then N. I discovered it actually through through your article, even though you you can access the list of shortcuts on the top
(Mario) Mhm.
(Tanja) of the screen inside Twitter, it's very easy, but sometimes the shortcuts that I use are J to go to the next tweet or K to go to the previous tweet or load more tweets, so just to go through the tweets.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah.
(Tanja) If I need to go inside the menu, normally I go it in the usual way, but okay, if you're a frequent user of Twitter, of course, you can have a look on these shortcuts.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, in the article. OK, so these are the Twitter news.
(intermezzo jingle)
How accessible are the popular messaging apps and how to improve Whatsapp? (Mario) The next thing we would like to discuss are the various messengers and improvements. The first one is from one developer in, I think he's in Portugal or in Brazil, I don't know. He's a Portuguese, he's called Juliano Lopez, and few months ago, he made the set of scripts for the browsers to make the better accessibility of the WhatsApp Web interface. I have to say, I tried it and it does work as he says. I'm sad to see that the WhatsApp themselves didn't think about these kind of features because eventually what what these scripts are doing, uhhh, is that they are making some buttons which are unlabelled by default, they are making them labelled; and you have a bunch of shortcuts which you can use such as alt+m to go through the message lists and yeah, if you if… alt+l, for example, to change the script language, for example, between English, Spanish and Portuguese and I don’t know if there are some other languages. Uhmm. But yeah, I mean, but for… fo… in order to have those scripts, you need to have Tampermonkey addon, there is a Tampermonkey for various browsers like the Chrome, Firefox, even Edge aaaand and opera as well as it???, and then you… So first you install Tampermonkey and then you install that script and just every time you go on the web.whatsapp.com, you need to press alt+s to turn on this interface, I mean, to turn on those scripts. And then the thing is much more accessible. Anybody tried it, except me?
(Tanja) I think WhatsApp should recruit this developer because, you know, how come that the WhatsApp is not accessible and so much used and on iOS it is, I think, the most accessible messenger that I use.
(Mario) Mhm.
(Tanja) So it would be great to have this there by default, like Twitter is accessible now.
(Mario) I agree, I agree.
(Paweł) I mean, practically, they have a ready made code. They just have to implement it, so…
(Tanja) Exactly
(Paweł) What could be easier than that?
(Mario) Yeah.
(Paweł) I didn't try that, however, what I have tried is an NVDA addon made by a Spanish speaking developer for WhatsApp for desktop, which is more or less the same experience as WhatsApp Web, except you don't need to open any browser and type in the address anymore, you just click the shortcuts on your desktop and you're in.
(Mario) MHm.
(Paweł) And there is one caveat with this addon for now: it works in Spanish and Turkish versions of WhatsApp. The good news is the language files are available, so if you want to, you can just translate along with Poedit, I believe, and it will work for your language. The only thing you have to bear in mind is that when translating, in some places you will have to obtain the names of the controls from WhatsApp itself, and because well, basically the addon relies on some object names and some node names that are localized for each language separately, but once you get it working and I got to work the older version of that addon for the Polish WhatsApp for desktop, you have obviously labels for the buttons, you also have shortcuts for some things like start and stop recording, like copy the currently focused message, like load a file to be transferred and then sent this file; and it makes using WhatsApp very, very handy, so all the context menus open as they should, you don't have to look for all these items on the… in the window anymore, and maybe not everything is perfect about WhatsApp either web or desktop, but the good thing they have done and it works really fine, is that ARIA support they've added, so when you're in the application mode or forms mode in JAWS, you can just use tab and shift+tab to move between the different controls, and when you are in the list, like the conversations list or messages list,
(Mario) Mhm.
(Paweł) you can just use the up and down arrows to navigate and then the right arrow to expand some additional options like “reply”, “forward” and so on. And I think it's a really good practice that many, many messaging apps are implementing. Twitter was one example of this because of ARIA, all this nice layouts and shortcuts they use are possible, same with WhatsApp, same with Messenger actually and same with Discord, although in Discord it's currently broken, it doesn't read the messages, but it always says “Actions for a given message. Actions for a given message.”, And… Yeah… They say the first rule of using ARIA is do not use ARIA and I see why, because it's great power and responsibility in the hands of the person designing the page, but if you know what you're doing, you can actually build an experience that is almost identical to having a native desktop app and messengers like this are basically showing that it's possible if you have the nerve to do it, and I hope more and more will do it because, well, let's face it, I don't think we will see many natively written apps these days, especially from the bigger companies, it will be more and more web technologies.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah.
(Paweł) And it's good that the developers of these learn how to make this experience comfortable to use for people who use Screen readers, because it's… It's a challenge and it's a task, but it's definitely doable as WhatsApp or messenger have shown.
(Mario) Exactly. The thing that I like, for example, what you said also about the WhatsApp is that they started also implementing ARIA ARIA, so, for instance, you can jump quickly between the message pane and this upper part of the screen where you have the general information about the person you are chatting with and you can also use the button shortcuts such as B and Shift+B for the Screen readers in order to go between the buttons for voice calls, video calls or recording the messages etc., which is good. However, what I don't like is the fact that not all of the developers are paying the same attention to the accessibility in all the apps which are really becoming, you know, all these messenger apps are are becoming very much part of our reality on the daily basis. For instance, when WhatsApp started messing up their license agreements and stuff like that at the beginning of this year, there was a huge migration of people going from WhatsApp to Telegram, and that's when I switched finally as well to the Telegram. Luckily for me, I'm the Android user, so On the Android side telegram is much more accessible than it is on the iOS, unfortunately, and as a matter of fact, I know that the people on the iOS side who are depending on the assistive tech or better to say on the VoiceOver, are struggling with Telegram, which is a sad thing to see and to make the things even worse, if you try to reach out to the Telegram developers and you point them to the fact that they would have to fix the things with the accessibility which is broken on the iOS, Ermm, they are saying like, “Yeah, you know, we know that we have to do that, but you can do that also. We have our own… All the code is available on Github. Who Who wants to fix it, they can fix it”, which is like, “Yeah, well…”
(Paweł) Which is how the specific clients for 5€ are born or like 15.
(Mario) Yeah, true. And the problem with those clients is that they're being not maintained as they should be, so because they're receiving just… They're not even quarterly updates, they're like updates which go, [laughter], I don’t know, two times a year and they don't support the latest API changes which are happening in the telegram. For example, I know that as a matter of fact, Telegram went with the huge changes for their APIs for the last two or three months, introducing the voice chats and bunch of other features, but those features are not available in those special clients, which you have to pay 5€ just in order to send a voice message and stuff like that, so, yeah, I'm personally thinking that this is something that really should be taken care of… by t… from the companies themselves, and that's why I that's one of the reasons why I didn't go away from WhatsApp, because what happened about two or three weeks ago was that when WhatsApp did some changes on the iOS, at one point many people started saying that on the iOS side it was very much broken, you couldn't properly see the message replies and they were also introducing this new feature with the playback Controls, and it was quite… kind of messed up at one point, people were really starting to complain and they wanted to migrate to the other clients, such as Telegram and stuff, but then they realized that it's even worse than WhatsApp, but then like ten, let's say ten days later or two weeks later, what happened, well… WhatsApp fixed all of the stuff and right now, there are no more problems, which is showing that somebody cares there at WhatsApp, OK, WhatsApp is part of Facebook now, and Facebook has their accessibility developers who are taking care of that, so I'm assuming this was also part why it was fixed in WhatsApp, but still, I mean, it's fixed and all of us can can still use it without problems, which unfortunately isn't the case with the… the Telegram. I don’t know, Paweł, what do you think or the rest of you guys, have you tried it, used it?
(Paweł) Well, there are some positives about this, such as there are, of course, unofficial clients, and there is this pretty nice desktop one called Unigram, which I even was in touch with the developer about fixing it, and it works fine. It's not the most convenient experience. It used to be better, for instance, before. The emoticon picker was introduced, because now it's pretty much cluttering a bit of the space there, so you have to do a little bit more shift+tab, shift+Tab, shift+tab work before you find the messages list. But at least it's it’s fully accessible. You can perform all the or almost all the actions you want. There are JAWS scripts for it made by Doug Lee. There are some attempts to make NVDA addons for it, nothing is complete yet, but you can find some, uhhh, work on that on Github, so this is definitely good. Android keeps improving, iOS also received some kind of VoiceOver update a couple of months back, but I know that it's far from complete work and since that update, there has been no major work on accessibility. And the funny thing is that in the release notes in the App Store, it says “The VoiceOver users can now from now on enjoy a better experience”, and there is still like a bunch of bugs that is not being fixed, so it's a bit
(Hlynur) But what is it? Why it is better? And better It's a very…
(Paweł) Yeah, I mean, at least…
(Hlynur) broad??? Term.
(Paweł) At least something is going on. I think there might be, again, some discussion on Github about this whole accessibility business with Telegram, I would have to find the conversation, but the problem of Telegram is that they have a source code on Github, but once you make a pull request to make things better, they're very adamant about taking it in and integrating it into the codebase. That's what I heard. So it's very difficult, even if you have good ideas and skills to put them into work, it's very difficult to get across and to make your changes a part of the solution, which is a sad thing, if you think about the open source ethics.
(Mario) That reminds me of a whole story with the TalkBack GitHub issues.
(Paweł) Oh, yes. I mean, there are different approaches to how you understand open source, for some people it's just “We put the code here, have a look, but do nothing to it”, to some people it’s “Let's make something nice together”. To some other people, it's just, I don't know, “We release, we release something from time to time”. It's difficult. It's not as ideal as we would like it to be.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah. Anybody else? No.
(Tanja) I don't use telegram.
(Mario) Ach, Ok.
(Tanja) But I uninstalled Viber from my iPhone.
(Mario) Arghh, man, it's, it’s ugh…
(Tanja) some time… some time ago because it was so inaccessible.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) and then it happened that I did some mistakes in Viber, I sent wrong messages and I couldn’t… [laughter from Mario and Tanja] I did a disaster and then I said, “No, guys, I'm closing Viber. Contact me on any other messenger app”.
(Pawel) What about signal? It was also quite popular, I think even more people came to signal than to telegram after the WhatsApp fall down.
(Tanja) Exactly. Yes I'm using it mostly on my phone? I haveI have a desktop app, but I don't use it so much, honestly. And I use it mostly for groups and for, like, checking messages. It's fine. It's not perfectly accessible. I think they're also since. Is it open source?
(Pawel and Mario) Yes, yes.
(Tanja) So I think they should do some more efforts because the signal desktop app, you have plenty of unlabelled buttons, so and sometimes it reads you two informations at once. So you're not sure where you're focussed? It's a little bit.
(Pawel) I could use it on the desktop. I even made phone calls and video calls with it. But the problem on my end, I don't know where it comes from, is that quite often the installer will crash. So if I leave it for a bit, it's freezing my computer like crazy. Maybe eventually it will get there, and when once it gets there and I'm happy using it, they come up with an update which I have to install again and the circle repeats, and the last time I tried it, it's crashed halfway through the installation and it removed the version that worked. But it didn't put the version that the newer one that should work so out of signal on desktop for the time being because the update crashed.
(Tanja) Did you try to install it again or you gave up?
(Pawel) Not yet. I gave up because I didn't need it so much for my desktop calls. I still have other things and I don't need to go from desktop so much unless something happens with my phone or at least not on signal. If I need to really need somebody to look over the camera on desktop or for any kind of private conversation, I will still use messenger mostly I guess.
(Tanja) Yes yes yeah well now we have a choice. We have a lot of desktop apps for messaging. Actually, I started to use the Messenger desktop app from Facebook and what I discovered that you can also share the screen when you call someone.
(Mario) Oh yeah.
(Tanja) Which is really nice., if you want to show something is really, really nice.
(Mario) Yeah, actually, from my side, I have to say that I have the most of my contacts on WhatsApp. And messenger, it's about kind of the same number of people. Then there are people on telegram and then there are really a few people on the signal, and I'm surprised that maybe from like I have like about 300 contacts on my phone and from those 300 people, I don't think that I have maybe 15 people on signal. Not even that
(Pawel) It may be that I mean In the German speaking area like Austria, Germany, where there is a really huge focus put on privacy and data protection, and especially since I think Elon Musk. So Elon Musk sort of bumped up the whole Signal idea that it's very secure And the private messenger, a lot of people there moved over. For instance, we have our work chat group on signal now to communicate. So it seems to be sort of at least over here, an accepted standard and to use Signal because it's the most secure.
(Mario) Yeah, I'm not on any Signal groups for the moment, but of course, that depends from situation to situation. So it's different. But yeah, I mean, I still have it on my phone and it's it's sitting there doing nothing for most of the time (laughs), but yeah, I noticed last time I used it, I don't know if something improved in regards to accessibility, but I noticed that you could not see the names of the people if you were, for example, in the individual chats, it was not showing the names of the people like in the WhatsApp messages.
(Tanja) When you chat one to one, I think this is the case. But not in groups
(Mario) When you chat one to one, it's not showing the name of the person. Yeah, so this can be the the problem when you have multiple messages and then JAWS you want to scroll through the messages, you don't know who replied or who said something unless you read from the context.
(Hlynur) certainly offers the Tanja the opportunity to send the wrong message to someone.
(Mario laughs)
Tanja) Yeah. But the issue that I have is we use it also for work, but sometimes we have like an exchange of almost 200 messages per day, which is crazy. And then if you don't have time to check the messages during the day, you you open in the evening and then, you know, the focus is on on I don't know, the last message that you saw. And if you want really to see the most urgent messages, the scrolling, I don't know. It doesn't give me a way how to go directly. I have to scroll to all the messages. It's a little bit annoying for me. On WhatsApp. You have a button. Go to the most recent message, which is very convenient for these groups. When you have
(Mario) yeah it is also available on Telegram, you can click on the option go to the bottom or something like that.
(Tanja) I don't know if there is any shortcut that I didn't discover because I use the standard scrolling gesture for VoiceOver and I'm going to go from one page to another. And if you have so many messages, you have to scroll a lot of time.
(Mario) Yeah, I have to say, regarding all of these discussions about messaging that WhatsApp just recently introduced, also playback button on the Android side and I'm so huge fan of that man. If you're in the groups which deals with lot of audio messages, this can become your best friend (laughs).
(Pawel) Yeah at last couldn't come sooner enough
(Mario) yeah because on Telegram, this was a feature that I started using from the first moment I came there, like, oh, there's a 2x playback speed button. Yes, I can save some time, but yeah, on WhatsApp, it came out just recently. What I realised and probably Pawel you were right when we had the private discussion. WhatsApp is turning that feature by the server side from the server side. Because eventually you would get the update and then you would not see this playback button right away, but it would appear after some hours or even some days. For me, it took two days to appear on my phone. But once it appeared you're here and it's being used all the time. I like it.
(Intermezzo jingle)
Clubhouse on Android and desktop and other voice conferencing software (Mario) This was our messenger discussion, and we can just make a short announcement also that Clubhouse is now finally available for Android in all the world. So anybody who's wishing to go to the whole clubhouse mess because it is a bit confusing and people need some time to understand how it's being used, and at the same time, Clubhouse is constantly improving and changing how they think they should be used and stuff like that. But at the same time, there are really interesting topics and discussions which you can find probably. Pawel I know you were updated as well. I'm also there.
(Pawel) Oh, yes. It could throw your full names when it's showing you who is in the room so that you know who exactly of your friends are there.
(Mario) Yeah, true.
(Pawel) Well, that's the my my only minor gripe. Otherwise, it's very good.
(Mario) For me that I don't have problems with it. For me that's ok I know at least who is there.
(Pawel) If you have multiple friends with the same first name, that could be a bit confusing.
(Mario) Oh, yeah. Yeah. But it's I like it. I really like the audio quality of of the client as it is only audio network based. So they, they spend some time on very good audio implementation, which is good. And yes, I think now by the features it's almost the same as the iOS client. It's not fully 100 percent, but they're bringing up the updates on the weekly basis. No, I just got my the newest today morning
(Hlynur) They took their time to get over to Android.
(Mario) Yeah, it took them some some time, a few months to get into the Android. But I think now they got a lot of users from all the countries that are, you know, much more using Android than the iOS.
(Tanja) Do you still need the invitation?
(Mario) Yes, you still need the invitation, because the whole thing about the clubhouse is that the network itself is still in the beta stage. So that's why you still need the invitation.
(Pawel) But it's easy to get on DNS because more and more people have it.
(Mario): So, yeah. Yeah, it's it's no problem. I even have a few left.
(Tanja) So anyone from listeners wants invitation, contact Mario (laughs)
.
(Mario laughing) Yeah. And then I will get more invitations. So yes.
(Pawel) Then we know who is listening.
(Mario) The more you send, the more you sent, the more you get. So yes, what I really like about the whole story about the clubhouse is that there is one client that came out relatively recently for the clubhouse for Windows. It's like the unofficial clubhouse client developed by two geeks. It's called Clubdeck. It's not only made for blind people at all, but the thing is that those developers got a very good response from the community, from blind people. And in very short time, in a very few weeks, they started experimenting with Screen reader and how do how do they work and stuff like that, and they came out with almost 100 percent accessible Windows version of their product.Personally, when I tried it when I used it a few days ago last time, I haven't found any control that was not accessible, which is great. And that's showing how somebody who is looking forward to see what's what's this whole story about accessibility can sit down and learn how to code and how to implement it. It's also showing that it's not any kind of magic. You you can learn it and implement it into any of your apps. And yeah, I feel like it's the client has even much more features than the native clubhouse. Pawel have you tried it or anybody else?
(Hlynur)No I haven't, you can send me an invite, though.
(Mario) And I will, yes
(Pawel) Haven't yet I was a bit wary of trying this because I know it's an official app and I know they are not very Clubhouse People are not very happy about unofficial apps. And also you can be logged in only with one device at a time.
(Mario) yeah that's true.
(Pawel) If I chose to be on the computer. I would have to sacrifice my Android device or my iPod, and I'm quite happy using this on my phone at the moment. So I didn't want to do it for that reason also. But I heard it's really great and it has some unique features. Even in the audio sphere. You can go apparently even in stereo, although I haven't heard yet how it works, but you can do some some real magic with audio there.
(Mario) Yeah. Yeah. So who wants to play around with it. Just Google for the Clubdeck and you will find it. It's, it's very easy to find it but yes. But speaking of the usage of the app, it's very easy to go back into the Android phone. You just basically get locked out. From the clubhouse and on the phone, so you just need to get your sms verification again in order to go back on your phone. And then when you go back, it everything is as you left it. So it's fine.
(Pawel) Ok, cool. Yeah, I'll give it a go. Also, simply, before we stop this, I think Twitter is also coming out to Twitter spaces now. So the space for this is getting a bit tighter on the Web and on Android and iOS. So it will be a bit more distributed across platforms. That's one thing I wanted to say. And the second one, there is another when we speak of audio apps, interesting project that is being developed in Poland and that’s the Elten Social Network that maybe some of our younger listeners will know about already. It's a social network for the blind with all the options like forums, blogs, messages, a lot of the typical social networking features. But the module that is being actively worked on right now is conferencing. And it's really interesting because you have 3d rooms in which you can move around, you can get further away from people or closer to people. And you hear this all in 3D space audio. And you can even I think it's a premium feature, sadly, but you can place your own objects in this room so you can put some sound effects, some fireside crackling or birds singing or even some actual sound file that you have on your computer or some live stream. And it's quite advanced as well. You have stereo sound, you have all the high quality options. And the the latest one they're working on right now is the VST effects for each participant of the call. So even if they sound bad and you would like to record recording is also possible. A podcast, for example, you can you can try. And if you know what you're doing to improve the audio of the VST effects, or you can put some other effects if you want them to sound funny or anything different than what they already are. So there is that. And, uh, yeah, it's also something you can check out.
(Tanja) But how do you move in the 3D space?
(Pawel) You take steps witharrow keys, and the more you move to the right, the more you hear the person to the left and the more you go to the front, the more you hear the person to the back of your position and you can even locate people across the room. So you see the list of everyone and you can just choose, OK, I want to jump next to that person and you're teleported across the whole map and you can also whisper to people. So you just hold down the space bar on them and then only this person can hear what you're saying.
(Tanja) Ok, because is that through the Web browser?
(Pawel) For now, it's a client you have to install just for Windows, unfortunately. And it also, if you remember Clango back from ten years ago, it is self, voiced, however, with the sound of your with the voice of your own synthesiser. But it's not based on native controls of windows. So that maybe a bit of putting for some people, but it's still, uh, on the in the client. They are now working on the browser version, I was told. But apparently it's not so easy to put all the features in the browser.
(Tanja) Because I was using some months ago also a platform similar to this, but visual that was completely inaccessible. So I was not able to move through the room. But also, if it is visual, you don't know if you don't hear the other person, you don't know who is in the room. Maybe there are two other persons in some other corners of the room. But if you're not alerted, who is there, you don't know where they are that you can come closer to them. I mean, in these inaccessible Web based. app
(Pawel) I tried some of these solutions, too, and there was one that we were supposed to use for some training, which had stairs and different floors of the building and walls in them, and I couldn't figure out why I cannot reach the other person. And it turned out that she was across the room one floor below. I had to take the steps and I had no idea. There were also doors I had to open and none of that was announced with sound effects. So this kind of experiences, although this seemed like an ideal thing for blind people, they can be easily messed up as far as accessibility is concerned.
(Mario) That's definitely something I'm Looking forward to see if this web version of this network comes out, and I hope that it will be not only in Polish.
(Pawel) It's already in other languages, communities translating it, so it's you can even download the client if you want to and register in English and be free to explore it.
(Mario) Ok, and what's the recording quality of it?
(Pawel): It's good. It's actually it goes up to, I think for 44 KHZ so it's very it's they are definitely targeting audio geeks with that to because the developer who is doing it, he's in touch with people who know a lot about audio and he's keen to experiment with whatever they suggest to him as long as it's not too much tedious coding work. So a lot of really interesting ideas come up in this project.
(Mario) And does it record multitrack or.
(Pawel) It's I think it does. I think it does. And I think it also lets you stream two sound cards at a time. So if you have a mixer and you have two channels, no problem.
(Mario) Hmmm, something nice to experiment in the future. Nice. Maybe we even move our podcast platform, you never kno
(Intermezzo jingle)
The Green Pass and its accessibility (Mario) I think we are finished now with our messengers and old stuff related to the messengers, and we can go to the almost last topic for today, but not the last, it's not less important. And these are the digital covid greenpasses , which are almost becoming reality, or in some countries, they're they're real since the beginning of June, when all of the story about digital version of those passes started to be announced a few months ago, there were different information floating around. And as it looks right now, this is a kind of PDF file in the digital form with the QR codes authorised by each country, and so when you get that. Certificate, you are able to travel through the through the whole European Union with it, and it should be accessible. That's what we've been told as well. Some organisations such as EDF were strong advocates of that. Which was nice to see, and however, I still don't have it, I have to finish my vaccination procedure. Yeah, I got my first one, and just after that, it will be available also in Luxembourg. I know that for right now, the countries that implemented it are using their national systems for the people to get those green certificates. Is that is that the case in your countries as well, guys, or how is it?
(Pawel) Yeah, definitely in Poland, from what I am told, because my vaccination is issued in Austria, so I can't access it like this. But you can use our national app for managing anything related to the governmental situation, your contact with governmental institutions and so on. And you can access it there. You can also get it separately, as far as I know, as a PDF and QR code. So, yes, that's how it's and also, I'm told in Austria, you can access your digital version in the form of a QR code through the local system here for for health insurance matters.
(Tanja) Yes. But what is interesting is not it is not only issued when you are vaccinated, it is also issued if you have a negative test on Covid or if you recovered so that you can travel freely or to enter cultural events where these green certificates will be required. So it's not only for those who are vaccinated.
(Pawel) Yeah, in German it's called the 3g rule because each of the words that means tested, vaccinated or recovered start with g: geimpft, getestet, genesen. So it's a bit easier to remember it in your head. I think it's everywhere like that.
(Mario) Yeah. I heard that the only difference between the certificate for the people who are vaccinated and people who unfortunately got Covid is the availability of the pass. I think that people who got through the virus, they can get the pass valid for six months and people who get vaccinated can get a certificate, which is valid for a year. That's what that's what I heard.
(Tanja) Yeah, but this is an interesting discussion because, you know, sometimes it seems that sometimes people who got the vaccine do not develop antibodies and some others who recovered have antibodies for some time.
(Mario) Yeah, true.
(Mario) Yeah, well, we will see what the future brings, but we hope that this summer we will be able to finally move around withthis Covid passes . If you have any comments about that, please send us an email or send us a tweet and tell us how did you obtain your Covid pass and whether is it accessible? I suppose that when I get it, I will put it on my phone and then I know I can put it on my home screen. Or it can be done as a notification, Pawel you found something for something for that?
(Pawel) Yes, there are. By combining two apps on Android. A quick shortcut maker and notification shortcuts, you can cause a button in your notification area to appear with a shortcut to any file on your phone. So if it's a PDF, you just choose in the notification shortcuts that you want to create a shortcut with the help of quick shortcut maker. And then you choose a shortcut to a file and then you point to your PDF file with your path and it appears as a button in your notifications. So it's all the time there as long as you don't take it down. So for all your travels or entering an event before you start, you can just put this in your notification bar and once you're done travelling or back home, you can remove it again. And it's very fast to do. And it's quite convenient. I must say.
(Mario) I have to say that I'm pretty much sure that this could be accessible by default on the Samsung phones, because Samsungs are coming with much more features built into their own interfaces. So maybe I don't even need to have those apps. I have to experiment.
(Hlynur) I can add a bit about how it is here. And I think we've have the digital vaccination certificates since late January.
(Mario) Oh, you are advanced man!.
(Hlynur) Yes, we are. And which would mean for you to login Iceland.is??? , that is. And I can see it now, I'm checking it out and I haven't. I haven't gotten the comment, I haven't gotten the vaccination. I've got nothing. I can see that there are three certificates here you can get a certificate for if you're being quarantined, probably to showcase to your employer or something like that. If you have gotten the cold virus, then you have can get a certificate for that. And also if you have been vaccinated. But I have done none of the above. So if I press the button to collect my certificate, that just tells me that there's no certificate to collect that. we've had here a vaccination lottery in the past few days.
(Mario) Vaccination lottery, what's that?
(Hlynur) Yeah, it's been has been showing live on TV every day. So what we did here is that it started with the the oldest people for vaccinations, health care employees and the people at risk maybe with. If you're working that kind of a job or if you have an underlying disease or an illness like cancer patients and such, after they finished those groups, they started just navigating downward in age. Until I think they have I think they have vaccinated like all people, like my in 1972, then 73 and so forth and seventy five, and then they were advised to do this more randomly. So instead of doing it, like, completely randomly, they said, OK, so now we will make some tickets, pink ones and blue ones and we will just track who will get vaccinated today. So. So they just pick a card and and they say, like, yeah, ok man born in nineteen eighty two, you will get a text message to come out and be vaccinated today. People were calling for like more predictability on that one because like if there were some extra doses left then you could, anyone could get a text message like at four o'clock. So like you need to be down in the major sports centre for vaccination in ten minutes. And so people are complaining a bit about that. So they just finished out all the rest that they have not vaccinated yet. And yesterday they were doing like a big lottery, just tracking everyone out. So everyone down to 18 years old should have gotten their first vaccination shot with in the next three weeks. So I think I am two weeks from now.
(Mario) Oh, OK, man, what a crazy time vaccination lottery. Before on the lottery, you would win a car. I don't know. A lot of money and stuff. Now you're getting the vaccine.
(Pawel) Well, when you said that Hlynur actually, because what we sadly had to do in Poland was apparently also was the case in the US is that so many people didn't want to get vaccinated, that in order to encourage people to give them a carrot and not a stick, they came up with actual lotteries where whenever you sign up to be vaccinated, you're entered for a draw for actual prices.
(Hlynur) Yeah, they don't need that here are except good for you have made it here. But I wouldn't I wouldn't mind.??? I saw one one dude in the US like win a million dollars in a vaccination lottery so I wouldn't mind
(Mario) Send the postcard to the Joe Biden maybe. Think about it. Yes.
(Hlynur) The worst case scenario here.
(Mario) What we still have left for you is the Netherlands interview, the interview fromPawel and Hlynur. Thanks, guys, for doing this. You made the great job I have to see.
(Pawel) It was also good doing this. Like pleasant to talk to Xavier and find out about this amazing technology.
(Mario): Yeah. Though it seems simple. It seems very effective. I have to say.
(Hlynur): Yeah, and it's probably not that simple. What do you mean by that? I mean, the the code itself is simple, but it took them five years to design it and make it work the way it was supposed to. Well, yeah, sure, I agree it's quite user friendly, but definitely much more sophisticated than people might think.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah. However, good point is that really you can use any kind of well, you can use a normal printer to bring those codes and put them wherever you want, which is nice. Or you can print them also on some plastic, some aluminium, whatever you want, if you want, if you want to have them forever on some buildings or some areas which are affected by the weather. So that's good.
Ebu Access Cast Interview Jingle Interview with the CEO of Navilens Hlynur: Hello, guys. Me and Pawel are sitting here with Javier Pita, founder and CEO of NaviLens. Good morning to you.
Javier: Good morning. Hello. Good morning, Pawel.
Pawel: Hello
Hlynur: Nice to have you here.
Pawel: Yeah, definitely.
Javier: Thank you. Thank you so much.
Hlynur: So for those who don't know what NaviLens is, maybe let's start with an open question. What is NaviLens?
Javier: Ok, very good question. NaviLens is like a new kind of QR code but instead of the QR code can be read very far away without need to focus or in frame it, that is very important. NaviLens was developed in order to search for a solution to help the visually impaired users to move indoors in unknown spaces. So we saw why don't create something, add to the space and help is the visually impaired users to receive information through their camera, reading the NaviLens code. And we spent five years to research and develop a new kind of QR code that could be read by a blind user without knowing where they are copies because you know that the QR code, you need to know where the QR code is going to read it. OK, so because the code was designed twenty-seven years ago. The QR code was invented in the 90’s in Japan and we spent five years to create a new kind of QR code that is the NaviLens code that can be read very far away. Very, very easily. And indeed a NaviLens code of 20 centimeters can be read at 12 meters far away, 12 meters away without me to inframe it. And there is a lot of use cases where this technology is being implemented.
Pawel: Ok, so maybe a question from me. There are many solutions for indoor navigation and the world sort of cannot agree, which is the best approach. Quite often we see Bluetooth beacons being the golden standard everyone wants to achieve, whether they are detected by your phone and the phone guides you or they are detected by your phone as well but they themselves that you know where they are by beeping or telling you, “Here I am, I'm the beacon for entrance door” or something. Why QR codes, especially when you think blind people using cameras, aiming with the cameras in a certain at a certain point. Why QR codes and not, I don't know, for example, Bluetooth beacons or some other technology that doesn't rely on you being able to use a camera?
Javier: Ok, so a good question. The point with the location, the problem as always is the location, the accuracy and the accuracy of the location. OK, so the problem with the Bluetooth becomes and the problem with the GPS as well outdoors, there is a problem is that GPS and beacons are not accurate enough to deliver a very accurate indication for the user. OK, for example, the beacons, you have an area, you can know that you are in an area, but you cannot see the direction to the element, the direction and the distance development. So the NaviLens code is solving this problem because then NaviLens code, we can know exactly the direction and the distance to the element. And these allow to an incredible new technology to deliver incredible instructions for the for the blind users. OK, so the idea behind NaviLens is making things simpler and more efficient for the places, because, for example, we started applying NaviLens at the bus, the transport system and for example, the bus stops. If one city like for example, Barcelona has two thousand six hundred bus stops, it's very important to locate what solution that would work very efficiently and at the same time will be good, could be implemented very efficiently by the transit operator. So our approach is we use in the NaviLens code, we add the NaviLens code on the elements like at the bus stop there, the main entrance to the metro station to different elements and thanks to the capability could detect the code very far away. We can guide the user to that element, all through that space. OK, I don't know if you are familiar with that new feature that we have launched two weeks ago for iOS users, that is called NaviLens 360 vision. The incredible thing about that is that the user only needs to see the code once and when the code is seen one time, the NaviLens app guides the user exactly to the position of the code independently, even if the user is still seeing the code or not. This is quite impressive. I can maybe do a demonstration if you want to hear how the system is working.
Hlynur: Yeah. How does that work? How does it like remember where the code is located?
Javier: Yes. Very good question. We have spent three years, the last three years to combine the algorithm that we use to detect the NaviLens code very far away, remember, depending on the size, we can detect the code farther. OK, for example, the Barcelona bus stops are using codes of 20 centimeters so that gold can be detected at twenty-five meters that way. That is impressive. So the ways we have combined that algorithm with the new tracking system, the AR kit at Apple and very soon with Android and we combine these two wars in order to position the code immediately. So doing that, we can know exactly where the NaviLens code is and combining with the tracking the information, we can inform the user where exactly the code is which is quite impressive. The only thing that the user needs is using the NaviLens app. OK, having the NaviLens app. OK, then when the user of the vicinity of a bus stop. OK, remember that GPS is not accurate enough, there is the last few meters wayfinding problem when the user is detecting the code will launch automatically the new mode that is 360 vision, this new mode will inform the user with a 3D sound with drums and a bell. The drums are 3D positioning sound, you know, to inform the user where exactly is the code and the bell is that the user is pointing to the code, OK, if I move in the position will for always that distance, OK to the element. And additionally, we are offering haptic feedback for the users when using the mobile phone, that obviously I can not so hear today, but you can try for yourself, downloading the NaviLens ap. OK, so with this, with this functionality, OK, I'm going to open the NaviLens, OK, I'm going to point to a code, OK. And please hear
Screen reader: Activating 360 vision, lock code, bus stop.
Javier: OK. And this is this moment that the code is located
Screen reader: 4 meters to your left.
Javier: And in one moment I can know exactly where they code is and when I read one meter to the code…
Screen reader: Information has been updated. Barcelona bus stop, Gran via plaza Espania. Upcoming arrivals, line H12, Besos Vernide 4 minutes. Line 91, Meso, 5 minutes.
Javier: Ok, and this is real time information. You must try it because it's super impressive.
Hlynur: Also, one neat thing about this that I learned was the information that it is reading. It's inserted not in English as it's inserted in Spanish.
Javier: Yes. Yes.
Hlynur: But because you have your phone in English, it auto translates over to English.
Javier: Yes. Very, very good point. OK, yes. The NaviLens code in this case is in Spanish but the NaviLens cloud platform translates automatically to thirty three languages and the user is being formatted in their own language. And this is a very nice feature.
Pawel: I find is especially good as a blind tourist in other countries, because until now I had the feeling that in order to make use of all the accessibility features that a certain country offers, I have to speak the language of the country. So imagine I come to Spain, I want to take my cash out at an ATM. I probably need to speak Spanish because the only language that will be supported will be Spanish. And this is a huge barrier, even if the accessibility is there. As a blind tourist who wants to travel independently, it's very difficult to make use of all the goodies that are available for everyone there because we don't speak the language. And here you've solved this problem like this. One question. How are you feeding this information in real time? I suppose the QR code contains some kind of URL right that points to the Barcelona transit system data file and this is automatically updated in the background or how is this made so smart?
Javier: Thank you so much. Two things. The translations are super important. OK, but not only for the blind users, OK for everyone, everybody. Because when you are travelling to another country and you are seeing signage that's in another language is a barrier for you. OK, so the good thing is that the numbers could translate automatically the information as well for the blind users and for everybody that because we believe in an inclusive technology that is helping that is not only helping the visually impaired but is helping everybody, OK? Oh, yes. This is a very important and everything. And then the real time information is that NaviLens is a combination between the NaviLens code that is the code that can be implemented everywhere. OK, plus a cloud system. And we combine the information the static information about the element. Imagine this is the bus stop number 12. OK, at this location and we combine with real time web service of the customer and in order that we inject that information in the same message, combining the static information plus the dynamic information in a very convenient way for the user. And the incredible thing is that we can combine any kind of information. In this use case we are telling the users the number of the next bus that comes. But we can deliver any kind of real time information, for example in a metro station, the status of the elevators, all disruption of the service of any diversional on the transit system. OK, and this becomes super powerful because we combine a static plus dynamic content.
Hlynur: That is amazing.
Pawel: Is it more difficult for me as a blind user, for example, to find the code using the camera than it would be, for instance, for Hlynur who still has residual vision because he can, for instance, zoom in the picture. I saw there are plenty of tools in the app for people who still can see something about zooming and not only zooming. Is there any kind of advantage if you have some vision left to the instance where you were blind completely, or is there no difference in the experience?
Javier: This code has been created for achieving the goal to be able to scan of code for a blind user, OK, without vision. OK, so we designed this code precisely to be able to scan the code without knowing where the code exactly is. OK, so you don't need to make a zoom in order to detect a code OK, obviously there is an option in the application for them to activate the zoom. But it's not used very much because the technology works as well as it is working because without zoom and 20 centimeters can be 12 meters far away. And if you have the last mobile phone maybe. 15 meters far away, indeed, I think that Hlynur in their headquarters in Iceland, they have implemented a very quite, bigger code, right? That it's possible to read very far away. So it is the case. You don't need to focus in order to scan the code, because at the moment that the code is being captured with the camera at any place you can read the code. And this is something that you must try in order to feel how the technology works, OK, because all the people are normally having this opinion that scanning a code is very difficult. And people think that these can be a challenge. And this is not. Hlynur, could you tell us about their experience with the code that you have in your main door?
Hlynur: Yeah, we created a code, so we had it printed on an aluminum sign and we put it on the front of the building. It's the code itself is around 70, 75 centimeters across. And without the zoom, it could be detected from my phone, which is a Samsung Galaxy, A70. So it's not the best camera. It could detect it from like 35 meters away without the one using the zoom function. I could detect the code from 80 meters away, which is ridiculous.
Pawel: Wow!
(All laughing)
Javier: It’s impressive.
Hlynur: And this is less than a meter wide.
Pawel: And you also tried it out with blind people right, completely blind people and they could also be detected from that far?
Hlynur: Yeah, just the phone because the phone is using the whole like 160 degrees of your camera vision fields. So it doesn't matter if the code is on the left side of the visual aspect of the camera or centered that uses the whole whole field of the camera. So it doesn't need to be centered like the regular QR code. So this was kind of amazing. I took a walk in the amazing weather here in the winter Iceland and tried this out and I could not believe the result I was getting.
Pawel: And it works both so well with both iOS and Android devices. Right. Or is there a difference in that? I mean, I guess it depends. If you have a cheaper Android phone, chances probably are the results will not be that good.
Javier: It is working in both platforms. For us, it is very important as well, because we are designing signage for everybody and it's very important to have that element in all kind of devices. And yes, you are right, depending on the quality of the camera, you will be able to read the code farther or closer. But the performance is very well in general. And the incredible thing about this technology is that is getting better and better with the technology. This is something that usually does not happen. When new mobile phones are going to be launched more meters will be able to read the code. OK, so it is a curious thing so yes.
Hlynur: It's advancing, but you guys don't have to do it.
Javier: Yes, yes.
Hlynur: Apple and Samsung are doing that for you.
Javier: Yes, yes, of course, in that case. We always are working very, very actively in the technology indeed. We are working on this product from 2012 and we spend five years to create the NaviLens code. And after these five years, we are a team of 15 people and we are all in support every day working in order to improve the NaviLens app. OK, always adding a new feature, functionality, like for example the 360 vision that is amazing. OK, so yes, I know. And another details. We are benefiting from the better cameras that the market is launching. The point is this technology is growing better and better with time.
Pawel: Which is a good argument for blind people who are wondering “Why do I need a super phone with this awesome camera if I don't take any photos? I take hardly any photos in my life. I don't need it for OCR, probably because I will. OCR goes already quite well with an average camera of your every smartphone these days.” But for this the better camera you have, the further the codes can be detected from. That's cool.
Javier: Yes, but this is a good point. OK, and obviously if you have a better camera you have better results, OK, but the point is it's not necessary to have the last iPhone, the last Android, the last mobile phone, because indeed, with iPhones and Androids, from five or six or even seven is all OK. The technology works very, very well. OK, and because we are not working at the maximum resolution of the camera or working with some, but the thing is, we designed this technology starting in 2012, OK, and is working very well in all kinds of devices. Obviously, you have a better camera, you would have more distance, but it is not necessary to have the last mobile to enjoy about NaviLens. And this capability allows a new kind of solutions because we are talking about the transit system and the bus stops and metros. We have implementation in Barcelona and Madrid. And more in Spain, in several cities in the USA, in New York, and we are proud, European technology in America. And helping individual people in the States and other countries in the world. So at the beginning, it was to improve or make more accessible transit because transit is key for the mobility of the user. But the capability that the code has is opening new use cases, for example, the project that was launched in the United Kingdom with Kellogg's and the RNIB was to add the NaviLens on the Kellogg's Coco Pops cereal food package, OK. And the thing is, this is a very efficient way to make accessible the information that is on the package, easily because, again, using a NaviLens code, you can access to the information that is on the package, indexes, weight, in 33 languages as well. OK, so the technical capabilities of this new kind of code is unveiling new use cases then to make items more accessible. That is very important.
Hlynur: This is great. I have one question. I always had a weak spot for companies that are socially responsible. Of course, you have your like, those who want to implement NaviLens, they probably have to pay some kind of license fee. But you also have free packages, right?
Javier: Of course. Of course. And indeed, for us, one key thing is this technology is always free for the users,always and will be always free for the users. OK, so the users, we are implementing the technology in several other scenarios in transit system, right now with Kellogg’s with the Coco Pops and other use cases, but any user can download free NaviLens codes into the app so they can download, the uses can download the NaviLens domestic or personal codes for free and the users can use that code, in order to tack anything, anything in their home, in their houses. For example, when… we have several use cases, some users are using them to make up the food boxes, as I have before, like Tupperware or something like that. You know in order to know what exactly is inside the Tupperware, in order to tack things in folders to tack, for example small trees. You know, they do this thing and make some annotations for them to see the status and the needs that this is small tree needs, something like that.
OK, and we recently, six months ago, we launched NaviLens friends and family. Friends and family is the ability to share the information that you're storing that personal codes for with others. Because we are always very, very focused on the user, for us is the most important. And we receive one petition from several members that live together. They were students living in Netherlands. And they asked, OK, it would be great if I can share the information that I'm writing in the Navilens codes with my colleagues, my flatmates, OK? And we launched the friends and family where any user can share their own annotation with other users in order to that, they can access to the same information in the codes. So there is an endless number of possibilities of using the NaviLens codes for different scenarios. And indeed, with the results of the 360 vision,, we have launched new packages and right now the users can do a lot more than five hundred personal NaviLens codes. So this is a very cool feature for free, of course, for the users.
Hlynur: And how about like schools and institutions, workplaces, etc.
Javier: For us the support of educational buildings, OK, for students is a key priority. So we launched a bunch of NaviLens codes with pre-recorded information with typical things inside the school or association, for example, in the. OK, you have several common places, could be female toilet, male toilet, principal's office, OK, auditorium something like that. OK, so we decided to launch a free kit with the difference with the personal codes, the personal codes are empty, OK? They user needs to record any information, but with a school kit that can be downloaded for free at www.free.navilens.com, any school at the world, can download the NaviLens codes with pre-recorded information and lots of codes with these typical places inside the schools, it’s as easy as print on a piece of paper, a standard piece of paper and put on the elements in order to allow to scan these codes in a school. For example, with the Covid situation, we launched the sanitizer code. So we updated with more codes, you know, to help the schools, then to look at where they sanitizers are. OK, yes the the school kit is very good batch of free codes to improve the accessibility of the schools and any school in the world can download them for free at www.free.navilens.com
Hlynur: And so for the schools, it's no coding, no programming, no excuses.
Javier: Yes. Yes. Simple, simple and quick.
Hlynur: Right. This sounds great. That sounds very great. Panel, do you have any further questions for Javier?
Pawel: I think it would be good if you shared with our listeners who as the EBU itself come from many different countries. Could you name a couple of examples of where in Europe can the blind users already enjoy your technology on the spot?
Javier: Yes, of course. So since we’re hosting this show with Hlynur. OK, so we are very proud that Hlynur can comment more about his experience. Hlynur, could you tell us about the experience you have had in your own building?
Hlynur: Yes, of course. We have been trying this out here. Also me myself am learning like what information would I need to gather on a single code? And there's also like a nice, nice option that I can put in a short text, which might say just meeting room. And I can also put like a longer version where I can place like meeting room. The light switch is to the left. On the right, you have a meeting table with ten chairs, five on each side, like I can go into details describing the room. And that had me also thinking and people here have been quite excited and happy about this add-on that we have placed here. So I definitely recommend it for other associations and companies to implement.But I was also thinking like, OK, when we can start travelling again, which might be soon, let's say you're going to a conference like an EBU conference in Austria or somewhere. And the hotel that you are will be staying at will have NaviLens codes installed. It might be in general or it might be just for the special conference. You could, like, put in details what the hotel looks like. You could insert that to the NaviLens codes and you could share that with those who are going to be attending the conference so they could get in advance in their own home in their own time, like prepare and learn about what the hotel looks like. Kind of get a visual description of the hotel from the NaviLens codes, am I right?
Javier: Of course. Very easy indeed.
Pawel: I thought more about if you could share with us in which cities specifically have you already installed a technology, for instance, at a train station or other object so that the listeners from the cities can already know and check out your product?
Javier: Ok, perfect as we are. We are in Spain. OK, we are starting working in Spain indeed, we work first with ONCE. That is the National Association for the Blind here in Spain. OK, as you know, OK. And we have so many places here in Spain, like in Barcelona, all the subway stations, all the bus stops in Alicante, Murcia. In Madrid. In one station there is a very good project with the tactile paving, that could be interesting to talk more about in another programme. OK, and it's been a lot of museums, museums with the technology that these are very useful use case as well. OK, with the technology and outside of Spain, we have in the UK there, for example, working with the RNIB, implementing in several places. OK, we are indeed in progress, but we implemented several transit organisations in the UK. Very soon we will be available. in France we have implemented the technology industry in a station very, very close to Paris. We are implementing the technology in other countries like Germany that will be very soon announced, OK? And in other countries, I'm thinking in real time in the United States is outside of Europe, OK? And and more and more more venues are implementing the technology by themselves so far with the school kids, a lot of school kids, OK. Something I think that the best in order to try this technology for the users is, since me and Juan, we are implementing them in so many places, that try the personal NaviLens codes OK, and then to see all the benefits of the technology to apply for their domestic use is my recommendation. And of course, if you come to Spain, you will find very inclusive cities with the NaviLens technology.
Hlynur: Sounds great
Pawel: Indeed. Well, congratulations on your successful implementations. And here's to hoping that more will come in the near future.
Javier: I hope so. I hope so, because we have a dream and indeed our mission, our mission and mission is to make a more inclusive world. OK, with priority for the visually impaired, for everybody, OK? And we are putting all our energy, all our passion, all our work to achieve that. And we think that in this way, that is a code that can be easily added to any signage is not excuse right now to make any space more accessible and more inclusive. And this is our dream and this is not the goal that we are looking for and working for.
Pawel: Great. Good luck.
Hlynur: Great.. Thank you very much. Thank you for joining us here on the EBU Access Cast, Javier.
Javier: Thank you so much. It's my pleasure.
Announcing voice: Demo time
(Music)
Announcing voice: Let's play with our gadgets.
Tanja: In this demo I will show the new feature in NaviLens 360 vision. This new feature lets you hear the location of a QR code in the space with a 3D sound. So it works best with headphones. And for safety, the best is to use bone conduction headphones. Of course, you can listen to the phone. The sound reproduction will be better with headphones. I will enter in NaviLens application
iPhone: NaviLens: Point to the tag with the camera to read it.
Tanja: And from the home screen, I can easily find the new 360 vision feature, I will open it.
iPhone: Activating 360 vision.
Tanja: Ok, and it's immediately ready to scan, I will just tap through the screen to let you hear what are the options,
Speaker1: 360 vision, beta, help.
Tanja: But we have a hope for more information
iPhone: Scan around you for NaviLens codes.
Tanja: Scanning around you. So let us see. I have a QR code. As soon as it finds it, it will remember the position of the code. So even if you move the camera away from the QR code, the drums, the sound of the drums will indicate whether the QR code is on your left or right, while the bell will tell you where is the QR code if you are pointing it with the camera in front of you. Let's see how it works
iPhone: Scan around you for NaviLens codes. Bus stop.
Tanja: Three meters away. The bell indicates that it is in front of me, but let’s see if I move by the phone to the right.
iPhone: Two meters to your left.
Tanja: The song goes on the left ear because I'm moving away on the other side. Turning round round round.
iPhone: Two meters behind.
Tanja: So it's really behind me, there’s even a sound for that.
Tanja: Now, the sound is on the right here because the QR code is on my right. I’m turning around,
iPhone Two meters ahead.
Tanja: And now it’s in front of me. I'm approaching the QR code.
iPhone: Alert. 23:17. NaviLens. Bus number 12.
Tanja: Ok, let's see what are the information provided
iPhone: Bus stop number 12. Upcoming arrivals (information about which busses are next arriving). Thank you for using NaviLens new inter-digital signage for everybody. Close election, button, personal annotation.
Tanja: We can also add personal annotation on this tag, if we need, delete this tag or reload it.
iPhone: Reload, delete personal annotation, close election, button.
Tanja: If we close the tag
iPhone: NaviLens. Bus stop number 12.
Tanja: It will be saved on the home screen of NaviLens. I hope you enjoyed the demo. And if you have the opportunity to use NaviLens QR codes, try it yourself.
Mario: Ok, so thanks for listening to us, as always, we are reachable on email and on Twitter. If you have any feedback, comments, even if you want to criticize us, yes, you can. We will survive. So, yeah, you can contact us and we are looking to be back with you in the next six weeks. Take care all of you and stay safe.
Tanja, Pawel and Hlynur: Bye bye bye
Outro Jingle Thank you for listening the EBU Access Cast.
If you want to contact us you can send us an e-mail to ebuaccesscast@euroblind.org or find us on Twitter @EbuAccessCast.
Welcome back to the 30th episode of the Ebu Access Cast, the big THREE ZERO!
In this episode, Hlynur makes his debut as a lead host, joined by the always charming Tanja, Mario and Pawel. We covered a lot of current issues... everything from binaural recordings of a volcano in Iceland to an audio version of an IKEA catalogue.
Pawel told us about his new gadget, the Sennheiser Ambeo Smart Headset and we even get to hear some recordings he created for us and let us take a peak into his daily adventures.
Hlynur told us about the Dark Reader Chrome Extension, which enables users to customize the way webpages look, turn light theme pages into dark theme, increase color contrast etc.
There were some news we covered, like Microsoft's acquisition of Nuance, who are most famous for the much-loved Siri, the Accessibility Mousepad from Iceland, that was based on a design from UK Home Office and has been shared in GitHub for others to use, translate and produce and the ongoing issue with external bluetooth keyboards not working with many special characters if using both Android 11 and Talkback together. We also discussed how a normal user can get in touch and report bugs and errors to Google
We took a close look at Accessible Overlays, what they are and what they are meant to do and how they are really not working and often making matters worse than fixing them. We also discussed some companies who are offering these overlays as a paid-for service and also how you, as a user, can get rid of them. There are many articles and podcasts who have covered this issue, for example a deep-dive 3 hour podcast of Mosen at large, especially covering it. For those who wish to read more about this, here is a link to an extensive Fact sheet on accessibility overlays.
We also talked about how audio-only media seems to be on the rise with large platforms like Clubhouse growing rapidly and huge companies like IKEA releasing their catalogue as an audio book.
The Sight City 2021 conference, that was supposed to take place in Frankfurt in May, will be hosted as a virtual-only event. We discussed how that might affect the conference as a whole, the number of companies showcasing their products and more.
Finally, Mario shares a piece of his limitless brilliance and expertise, giving us a demo of how you can easily transfer audio from your smartphone to a PC via bluetooth.
We really hope you enjoy this landmark episode and will join us next time. Should you have any questions, remarks or content you would like to contribute, you can reach us by email at ebuaccesscast@euroblind.org or twitter!
As always, you can also explore the transcript of this episode.
All the best from our entire team!
Transcript of EBU Access Cast - episode 30 (jingle)
This programme is financially supported by the fundings from the European Commission.
You are listening to the EBU Access Cast. The official podcast from the European Blind Union about assistive technology for blind and partially sighted people.
And here is our host.
Introduction (Hlynur) Hello, everyone, and welcome to the 30th episode of the EBU Access Cast. You know what that means, hit the big three zero, which means we only got 10 episodes until we reach the same number of seasons of The Survivor. It's a great big deal. My name is Hlynur Þór, located in Iceland. I'm not alone. Well, I am alone, but still not alone. We have with us at Mario Perčinić from Croatia who’s located in Luxembourg.
(Mario) Hello sir. Yeah, pretty much.
(Hlynur) We have Tanja Kleut from Croatia, also located in Luxembourg.
(Tanja) Hello.
(Hlynur) Hi there. And last but not least, we have Pawel Masarczyk, pronouncing that correctly, I hope, from Poland, located in Austria. Hi there Pawel.
(Mario laughing)
(Pawel) Yes, hello.
(Everyone laughs)
(Hlynur) So how are you guys doing?
(Pawel and Tanja) Fine.
(Pawel) The weather is getting better.
(Tanja) It’s getting sunny.
(Pawel and Tanja laughing)
(Mario) Yeah
(Tanja) So everything is nicer.
(Hlynur) Yeah, it is. We're getting closer to like two digit degrees here in Iceland. Hopefully that will happen soon.
(Mario) What's two digits, means 11?
(Everyone laughing)
(Tanja) Or even 10.
(Hlynur) 10.
(Mario) Or ten. Yeah.
(Hlynur) I think we'll have nine tomorrow and sunny.
(Tanja) You consider that warm?
(Hlynur) We do. Well, it depends. In July it isn't. But like in February it would be.
(Tanja) OK.
(Hlynur) It depends on the mood and the month. Of course, there's a lot of heat going on in the Reykjanes Peninsula in Iceland. We had an active volcanic eruption going on for around five weeks now and it's getting quite stable. So I just heard in the news yesterday that they are expecting it maybe to continue for a number of years rather than a number of months.
(Mario and Tanja) Wow. Wow.
(Hlynur) So it might outlive Covid,
(Mario) But it's even older than Covid. So, you know, it should live longer.
(Hlynur) Yeah, yeah. If you calculate that there are also 800 years since it erupted last time around.
(Pawel) He's probably seen worse things in his life.
(Mario) Probably.
(Hlynur) Yeah. It's a beautiful thing, though, the eruption.
(Mario) Is it better than the Van Halen Eruption?
(Hlynur) It's very difficult to compare, but I guess the heat is similar.
(Mario laughing)
(binaural recordings of the volcanic eruption in Iceland)
(Mario) Uh huh. OK,
Gadgets (Hlynur) So any new gadgets from you guys?
(Pawel) Would it be a shame if I said that I have something?
(Hlynur) It would not be a surprise, though.
(Pawel) It's a meme.
(Tanja) We are expecting gadgets from you, Pawel.
(Mario) Yeah, at the end you’re Inspector Gadget, at the end of the day, so.
(Hlynur) Yeah
(Pawel) I'm really happy about this one, though, because it used to be much more expensive. Now it's become really attractive in price and I keep calling it the new favorite birthday present for a blind person. And I'm talking about the Sennheiser Ambeo Smart Headset, which is a headset, but not a usual one. It's a bit special in it in a way because it's also a set of binaural microphones, which means you can wear them on your ears like a headset and they record the sound from the position of your ears. They are stereo microphones and they create or rather recreate the whole 3D spectrum of the audio that you're hearing with your own ears. So when you listen back on your other headphones or any other person listens on headphones, it's quite likely they will hear all the space around you. So things moving towards the left, but, like, closer towards the left or further towards the left, behind you, ahead of you, sometimes even up and down. So you can really close your eyes if that helps and imagine that you are there where the recording was taken. And the nice thing about it is it doesn't require much technical knowledge about how this works, because what usually happens is when you look for such microphones, you research a lot. Which company works better for you? Which company has microphones that you can wear? Which one has microphones that you can clip onto your clothing? How thick the cables are. And of course, you can research. And then you have to also consider if it has monitoring, live monitoring on or not. And every kind of device seems to be appropriate for another kind of context.
And here you just buy this, you plug it in over your lightning and you're good to go with pretty much anything and by anything, I really mean anything, like you can record with your voice memos or any other recorder; you can live-stream if your live-streaming service supports stereo, so you can make a radio stream in binaural if that's your thing, you can go on Teamtalk, which also supports stereo and show something to your friends in binaural there; so the applications are really countless and limitless and it also has some nice features that as a blind person you would definitely appreciate, such as transparency hearing mode, which means that if you wear them outside and you're moving around, you can hear your surroundings quite well and I tested this. I've been already on the road with this and I can hear people around me, I can hear the traffic, I can hear every sound I need to hear, so it's really good and I feel safe wearing them, recording and still being independent with mobility.
There is also a noise cancelling mode, this I haven't tried much because I don't listen to music on this, I just record. And also, you have a smart switch that you can program to do a lot of things in the app. Yes, these headphones also have a companion app that you can use and what you do in this is you can choose what the smart switch does. It can switch between the two recording settings, which are either natural level or reduced volume level. The reduced volume is better for something very loud, like concerts, they say concerts in the manual, but I found it really good for really loud sounds like the train or a wind blowing. This is really, not very, it is very wind sensitive, so it's not very good for recording outside when it's windy, but still you can try with the reduced level to get some better results. And you can also set the switch instead to open your favorite recording app (for audio recording alone, it supports the Voice Memos and the Metarecorder, which is an app from Apogee. This headset was created in cooperation with Apogee Company). And you can open this or a couple of video filming apps. And yeah, that's what basically the headset does. I see it's compatible with all iOS devices. I use it on my iPod Touch 7, which is a bit old-ish, and it still works, but I heard it still works with the newest iPhones, too; so that's how it works and what you can run it on or what you can connect it to.
It used to cost 300 Euros when I'm not mistaken, so it was really expensive at some point. Suddenly it dropped in price and you can find it on Amazon for around 50. I saw it on eBay, Germany for 43 Euros, and I found it in a shop in Poland for around 60, 55, something like this, so it's definitely gotten cheaper. The reason for this is most likely, I'm not sure but I think that's what happened, that it went out of stock or rather it's been discontinued and this is why the price is such. I tried to find it on the official website of Sennheiser, and you can see it, you can see the description, but you don't seem to be able to buy it anymore. In the Polish store it doesn't say why, on the German store you can find it in the category product archive, so it means it's probably already like an old product and some shops still offer those at this very attractive price. But still, even though it's not probably not supported or not being maintained or developed anymore, I still would say it works with all the devices that are on the market and it's easy to use and it makes really nice recordings, so if you would like to make audio postcards, which is what I do for my friends now instead of photos, I just take a little snapshot of everything around me, some background noises of the market square or some shopping mall that I'm in or anything else, I just take 30 seconds of audio and I send it to somebody and it really sounds nice; and I can tell that even my sighted friends and family who usually are not excited about audio innovations, I give them the headphones to listen to a bit of the recordings and they can they don't seem to be able to take the headphones off so they notice the difference, and it seems to be something remarkable for people like they notice that it's you can hear the depth of the space around you, so I think it's a really good thing to get right now. And of course, there will be some samples of how it sounds in the podcast included.
So as promised, here are some samples of how the Ambeo Smart Headset binaural microphones sound like. Bear in mind that these recordings are best when you listen to them in your headphones. Also, you can try with different ones because your experience may vary depending on what you pick. For instance, with my USB headset, I can hear that the left channel is somewhat blocked as if I was covering my head in some way. This doesn't happen on my generic music listening headphones, so feel free to experiment, as I said. This is a collection of generic backgrounds and scenes that I've taken from all around Innsbruck and in one case, Poland. So feel free to jump in on the journey.
The first one is me leaving the building where I live in and a bit of a generic light traffic to get you started.
(first recording from Pawel)
Now, let's hop onto some more heavy traffic, you can notice how the different cars, motorbikes and vehicles pass on from left to right, right to left, back to front and in all possible directions, really.
(second recording from Pawel)
A slight change, now in front of a shopping center, and this is how these mics capture generic noises of people talking around.
(third recording from Pawel)
Once inside the Center, I tried to locate either some stairs that would take me to the upper floor or an elevator that would do that. Let's say I failed spectacularly. But on the way, I ran into some random shop and got to listen to some nice music.
(fourth recording from Pawel)
Now, let's take a listen at how a tram ride can sound in 3D.
(fifth recording from Pawel)
This was taken near the City Center somewhere, and you can observe that there was a plane flying. Also, you're going to hear my mobile phone a little bit, but that's not so important.
(sixth recording from Pawel)
Last but not least, let's take a listen at how some of the nice birds are chirping behind my family house in Poland. With that, I'll leave you for the rest of the show. I hope you enjoyed this little presentation. Thank you.
(seventh recording from Pawel)
(Pawel) Um, so that's my gadget for this month.
(Hlynur) Sounds good. Sounds good.
(Tanja) Did you try to record someone?
(Pawel) Yes, I have. And you as you’re wearing your headphones, you will be a bit centered, a bit away from the microphone. So it's not like you hear yourself in reality that you are very close and so on. You will hear it's a bit centered and a bit further away. And when the sounds get louder around you, it will be more difficult to hear you. But people around you, if they stand next to you, left or right, you will hear that. You will hear them from the right distance. So you will hear the person on your left, the other person on your right.
(Tanja) Ok, because I was reading some comments and in some people were saying that after recording someone like on one and a half meter distance, you couldn't hear it loudly or properly in the recording. So I wanted to know, what is your experience?
(Pawel) There will definitely be distance. I think also binaural recording is not so much about recording people, but more about recording the environment. So it's not really for interviews much. It's more for actually concerts. So you can hear the musicians as they stand in front of you or somewhere like from left to right. It's more about some space around you. So if you want to just record noises around you or like landscape, all the landscapes. But binaural recording is also popular in this technique called ASMR, where people, you could actually find a lot of videos with that on YouTube, where people whisper really quietly into your ear and you can definitely hear it from the direction from which they spoke, which is apparently a relaxation technique. If somebody speaks to you calmly or quietly and whispers right into your ear, it's apparently helping you in falling asleep and so on. And this is what microphones that can record binaural with the binaural technique can also be helpful with.
(Hlynur) Some people would call that creepy.
(Pawel) Yes, I agree. But apparently the reason they do it is different. Like it's some kind of psychological response. There are some more scientific terms to call it but there is something apparently that we like about it, and that's why it's so successful.
(Hlynur) Ok, great, but it's iOS only,
(Pawel) Yes, sadly, yes, I haven't tried it with an adaptor to USB C yet. I heard it. It doesn't work with Windows because there are some drivers that are not compatible. There is one headset that is USBC compatible, and it should work with Android but I do not know if it works yet. Somebody I know ordered it, so I should be able to hear about it soon and then I can maybe report about it. But for now, let's just say I don't know anything about this, sadly.
(Hlynur) OK. OK.
(Tanja) What about the accessibility of the application?
(Pawel) It's accessible. You can do everything in it. All the buttons are clearly labelled and they are either switches like off and on switches or radio buttons. Also, there is not so much in the app that you wouldn't be able to do otherwise. The only thing, let's say, that you seriously cannot do with the headset alone and you need the app for is the configuration of the smart switch, other than this, the transparency and noise cancellation you can do with the dedicated buttons. There is some equalizing OK, maybe you can do this, you cannot update the software on the headset, but I don't know if it makes so much difference. There was just a minor upgrade when I got mine. That I had to do. And other than that, I don't open this app ever. It's good that it's there if I need to reconfigure something, but I don't open it every day, let's say. Once you set things the way you like them, most likely you will not need it. It also has a microphone for phone calls, so it's definitely meant to be a consumer based product, it's meant for people, not just for audiophiles who want to record, but also for people who need headphones that also record good stereo audio.
,
(Hlynur) Ok. Sounds great. So you recommend it?
(Pawel) Yes, I would say yes. It's as I said, it's easy to use, it doesn't require you to know a lot about these things. It's affordable at this stage. You plug it in and you're ready to go unless you don't like in-ear, in-channel headphones, earbuds. Some people don't like them. So then it's not much not really for you, but if you don't mind, they even give you a set of additional gums if yours run out for some reason or you need to change them, so you are good to go for the beginning; but I know some people who don't like… It basically goes behind your ear and the earpiece… it’s an earbud, you just stick it in your ear, it's ended with a gum, so you probably know what kind of headphones they are and you just wear them like that. Some people don't like them, so in this case, it's probably not for you. Otherwise, I think it's a functional product that I can recommend.
(Hlynur) Brilliant. There was also something that I wanted to talk about which concerns those who are visually impaired. It's called the Dark Reader and it's a Chrome Extension. So it's like more of a tool than a gadget, if you would.
But with the increasing popularity of the dark possibilities, you can see it in YouTube and Facebook and Windows 10 pretty much everywhere. But if there are some pictures that you're looking at on the Internet, which are you find them too bright and you would like to have them in a dark view, you can through Google Chrome at the Dark Reader Chrome extension for free. It was a good day for me when I discovered this one. It works in both ways. If you want to have your sites like bright or high contrast, you can set pretty much everything up so you can turn a dark page to a light one and a light page to a dark one. And you can set the brightness level and set the contrast level. And you can also like register on a list certain pages. So if there's a page that you commonly go to and you would always like the Dark Reader to be running on that particular page or that particular domain, you could just set it on the list and it will turn on automatically. So I can definitely recommend this for everyone who likes to be in charge of how the web pages that they're looking at, what they look like. And for those who I've recommended this for in Iceland, pretty much everyone has been, just jumping their height from it, so everybody's pretty happy about this one. It's not that new, but I still felt like letting you guys know about this one. You guys probably don't use Dark Reader Chrome Extension that much, I believe?
(Tanja) No, but I would be interested, Is there any Other addon, for example, for high contrast that works differently? In a sense, what would be the difference between this one and high contrast Only or that is actually customisable and the same?
(Hlynur) This tool is just quite neat at just how it works, it doesn't affect any images. And the high contrast version is like it's more it's just it just more of a high contrast than you're choosing the colours. If you want to have yellow text on a black background and you would have all links, you want them to be green. So the looks are quite different. So using the dark, really, you get more of a seamless natural feel of using the web pages. But of course, if you would go to high contrast and use that just through the Windows accessibility settings, then that would go everywhere into the browser and into all apps that you use and into everything. So this is more of a tool that you turn off and turn on as you wish,
(Tanja) Because sometimes on some websites I see the possibility to activate the high contrast mode.
(Hlynur) Mhm. Yes, some pages do have that. But this is for like when you are in charge.
(Tanja) Yeah, of course.
(Hlynur) So moving on to
Accessibility in the news.
(Jingle saying Accessibility in the news.)
Accessibility in the news Microsoft has bought Nuance (Hlynur) So for the accessibility and the news, Microsoft has bought Nuance, the A.I. Generation Company, for 20 billion US dollars, which would make that the second largest acquisition after they bought LinkedIn 2016. Guys, this is huge.
(Mario) It is.
(Hlynur) They have a plan, that's for sure.
(Pawel) Did they already release any kind of mention what they want to do about this, I heard from their press releases and press conferences, they are mostly interested in the medical application. So what is done in telemedicine and stuff, but I'm not sure: has anything been shared about what happens to the voices themselves that are currently running on so many devices, not all of them being made by Microsoft,
(Hlynur) No definitely know the health care. The health care industry in the US is using products from Nuance quite a lot, but that seems to have been their main goal.
(Pawel) Yeah, it would be a shame to see them go, and I hope it's not Microsoft's intention. Yeah. So seeing the commitment of Microsoft to accessibility, it's a... I wouldn't say they completely scrap them off, but it'll be interesting to see how they're going to approach the fact that so many devices, some of the mainstream, some of them dedicated to blind users, make exclusive use of these voices and there is no alternative there. So it would be interesting to see. I hope it will not be the second Ivona, because with Ivona voices we know what happened once Amazon acquitted them. Basically, we have them no more.
(Hlynur) Yeah, we do. Yeah, we we we do know what happened there.
(Pawel) Yeah, exactly. And outside of Nuance, there seems to be no company on the market so far with screen reader compatible voices that have this large base of available languages. So it would be sad to just see them either go away or being at least, like, abandoned and not developed. But this is basically me being tragic. I hope there are some more bright, some brighter outlooks on this.
(Hlynur) Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Apple a big stakeholder inNuance?
(Pawel) I'm not sure at this stage, They definitely used them, we know that, but I'm not sure if they were a stakeholder at this stage.
(Mario) Yeah,For this Bart I'm not sure. I don't know. But I don't think that anything of the products will go away. As a Matter of fact, Nuance is also for a long time the owner of the rights for the famous Eloquence speech synthesiser. So far we really don't know much. But from what I can say is that we might see. The situation where. The eloquence might get some updates after a long time of silence, Because there is eloquence for Android that hasn't been updated for a while andCodefactory , who is owning the rights? I mean, they're not honouring the rights. They're just honouring the rights for Android version. They said that they are no longer going to update it for a 64 bit version. Everything was published before we found out about this purchase from Microsoft that Microsoft is acquiringNuance. So what what I can see for for sure that this will happen is that the Vocalizer voices will definitely get improved. And that might also have the effects also on the Microsoft text to speech voices. How I don't know, but I'm sure that they will use the same kind of resources which they have to, you know, to have the end product is much better, maybe even for they might use the resources from Nuance for their Azure voices. Because the thing is that there is this Microsoft cloud. You have the Azure system, which is using the Azure, the new Azure voices that we were talking about a few episodes ago. So. I definitely can see that these kind of things will also be heavily used in the health care sector for sure.
(Hlynur) Yeah, maybe maybe the heat is not as much about the voices, but maybe more around the AI functions that Nuance has.
(Mario) Yeah, but if I mean, if you have the AI, that AI needs to communicate back something, whatever, it needs to communicate back.
(Hlynur) So it works better that way.
(Mario laughs) Definitely, yeah.
(Tanja) Yes. But they also have Dragon, so maybe, you know, merging all these technologies they want to provide it for, especially for health care, because when you know, access to official Nuance web page, you have the title „Nuance - Conversational AI for health care and customer“, which is new, so it is really that the title appeared after this acquisition. So we actually don't know how it will be For speech synthesis. I really hope that they will continue and eventually that Microsoft will start to use those voices that we can see those voices from Vocalizer as part of the Microsoft TTS. But of course, these we have to see, because at the same time, we were able to hear in Episode 28 the new neural Microsoft voices and their awesome.
(Hlynur) Yep, they are. Definitely AR, we actually don't know anything about what is going to happen, but we we'll definitely keep an eye on this one to see and hope for the best.
(Mario) Yeah, absolutely.
Icelandic accessibility mousepad design is now available on GitHub (Hlynur) So the Icelandic accessability mousepads that you guys might remember, we talked about them recently, they have finally been shared back into GitHub so they can be downloaded from there and used by others for translations or just straight up manufacturing. They are, of course, open source.
We use the posters Info for making Of the mousepads, So we wanted to to give the this the mousepads designs back to where the info came from And we will have the link in the show notes for that. Anything you would like to say about this guys?
(Pawel) That's good to hear. I was definitely looking forward to this because, um, yeah, I'm really looking forward to when and if they will be used in Poland for reminding why accessibility is important. And I think they're also a nice gadget. People like when they are given something at the workshop, except of just knowledge, I heard sweets are a good tip, so if you are hosting any kind of presentation or a stand at a fair or conference, it‘s nice to have some local sweets from your country with you to give away and then people will remember you better and also whatever you had to say at the conference. And I think this kind of mousepads, this is a good practice to follow at such events, to just leave people not just with your words, But with some tangible object that can reference these words.
(Hlynur) Yeah. So it doesn't hurt that this is the actual object that actually has the information that you want to deliver to those people written down on.
(Pawel) Exactly. So it's very nifty idea because everyone needs mousepads. We change them from time to time, those who use the mice, but if these mousepads also come with something informative that you can look at and be reminded every day, it's almost like having your chart on the wall with some interesting thoughts or some quotes that inspire you, and here you will have the good accessibility practices, so it's good to have them at hand.
(Hlynur) Yeah. And we hope that others will just enjoy and and take advantage of this and and download them, change them, upgrade them to whatever you want and start manufacturing. It doesn't cost that much to to manufacture a mousepad.
(Mario) Sure if they are being manufactured in China (laughs).
(Hlynur) Yeah, all around, probably (laughs).
(Pawel) What format is it Hlynur? So how does the localisation look like and how does the processing, the printout look like? Are they like images, documents? What is it exactly what a format?
(Hlynur) I don't remember what the format was. I have a designer working with me who was actually in charge of designing part of it, but it was like quite easy for him to use. It was like just filling out a PDF document, basically. Mm hmm. And images and everything, it was all in fonts.
Problem with bluetooth external keyboards still occurs, if using Talkback with Android 11 (Hlynur) So some news or maybe no news about what we were talking about earlier on Android 11, where, like Icelandic and I've heard Danish also special characters would not be working if you had Android 11 and had TalkBack running also and were using a USB, nono sorry, a Bluetooth keyboard. That hasn't changed. Still, we posted an issue about this a few weeks ago, but Android seem to not have a specific and clear platform for regular users to give them feedback. Do they
(Mario) Actually? Yes, they do. You can do that from your phone, for example, users of the Samsung phone can do that from there are Samsung Members app on the phone,
(Hlynur) OK,
(Mario) which allows you to to give them feedback. Or if this is the situation which is related to, let's say, yourkeyboard, such as if you're not able to. Write such characters for Gboard for instance onGboard, for example, you can give them a feedback just for that app That you are not able to use such characters. So. Yeah, those those feedback like that can be reported or yeah, I'm sureThat there is also where there's also a feedback hub for for Android in general. There must be.
(Hlynur) Yeah. We thought it would be. There were three of us and we call ourselves specialists searching for some kind. But we didn't find anything, any hub for a for a user based like feedback, but only like developer feedback's.
(Pawel) What if you tap more options button in the settings ofGboard? There should be something like „Leave Feedback“.
(Mario) There should be. Yeah, sure, for sure. And there is also possible, I'm sure that when you go on the play store, let's say based on a page of the Gboard, there must be some kind of contact information. Where should your rights to send them feedback for the app? I'm sure because each of the Google Apps has that. So there must be a feedback, for Gboard as well.
(Hlynur) Yeah, but this is, of course not a particular app of any sort. This is just if like if you're using TalkBack to Android 11 and you're using just any kind of a Bluetooth keyboard.
(Mario) Ok so this is just on the bluetooth keyboard not with the onscreen keyboard?
(Hlynur) not not with the on screen, just with the Bluetooth keyboards.
(Mario) Oh OK. So that's the Android then then this is General Android. General Android.
(Hlynur) But to make it a little bit more complicated, it works when you don't have the TalkBack activated.
(Pawel) This seems like it's a matter for the disability help desk. Maybe write there.
(Mario) Yeah. then definitely. Then if if it happens only with the TalkBack then it's a thing for disability help desk.
(Hlynur) Ok, we'll try it, we'll try that out.
(Pawel) They are Even on Be my eyes so you can contact them via Be my eyes, but they, of course, have an email where you can contact them via email
(Mario) And they may open the tickets for that. So you were being notified of what's going on about it?
(Hlynur) Ok, OK, that sounds neat. We have been spending a lot of time trying to figure out where to post this bug.
(Mario) Now you see, you had to come to the podcast to ask the right question.
(Hlynur) So every six weeks we can ask a question.
(Pawel) Samsung also has a disability support Somewhere, um, because I heard of a couple of people in the United States on the mailing list contacting them about some TalkBack issues, and they seem to have gotten some responses even, so now that‘s the choice you can make, you can either contact Samsung or Google. It's the same TalkBack.
(Hlynur) Ok, so let's round up the news.
Accessibility overlays, what are they and what do they do? So the next thing we'd like to discuss is what what is called accessibility overlays, their kind of Thought on as a as an automatic solution to accessibility issues on websites. But are they really? There is a lot of information that does say otherwise because there has been a lot of talk about this over, well, the last few months. Have you noticed any rise in that discussion?
(Mario) Yeah, there has been lots of talk and even a few very nice podcasts which go into the complete details about what's going on. So to kind of summarise the whole thing, there are a few. So called the companies which claim that they are providing. The accessibility overlays, which people who are not familiar with the website accessibility can implement them on their websites. And the end result should be that when the person who has disability, such as a blind user or the user with dyslexia and so on and so forth comes on the website, they should be able to navigate the Web page better. But when we are talking about the concrete results, what's happening on the website, for example, if you're using a screen reader, first of all, there are a few Companies which do that, such as the most famous one is the one called AccessiBe. Then there is the. Audio Eye and for example, the equal web, there's and there's tons of others But the AccessiBe being the one that is most present on most Web sites. So the thing is that how you will find out if you have the addon, that you will come to the Web site and you will immediately get notification. If you want to continue browsing a Web site, you want to turn around Screen reader mode So press control one or alt one or whatever is alt 1. So when you press that one key. Instead of getting even better support, which they claim they do, the website goes to pieces, everything falls, falls down. The headings which are nonexistent before they start appearing on the places where they're not supposed to be. And in fact, you are not not seeing the content that you have to see. So what's what's happening is that people started complaining about that kind of behaviour against that all over the place, especially in the states. And to be honest with you, I found found out about this AccessiBe addon it was somewhere in 2020. And believe it or not, they started appearing on all kinds of different websites, even on the sites of the musical companies. That's where I found out because I'm I'm using also Ernieball guitars. And Musicman bases. So when I went to check out something on the government website, I was introduced to the Yeah, if you want to use our enhanced screen reader mode, press alt+1. And I'm like, yeah ha? Then I pressed alt one and the site fell immediately to pieces. And the only way how you can basically get out of that crap is that people started identifying what's going on and then they started cleaning up their browser, their cookies, their cash. And even there are some people who at the end of the story, decided that they have enough of this whole mess, which is basically happening on lots of different websites. So. They made an addon for Chrome Which is called AccessiByeBye. And what this addon does when you install it, it's it's just sitting in your Google Chrome or Microsoft Edge, which is also Chrome compatible. So when you finally find the website which has this kind of accessible overlay, it will disable it and the website will look like, as it normally looks like. So if you want to do that, to know more about all of the subject. You can listen to the Jonathan Mosen podcast, which we will link in our podcast
(Hlynur) It is a full three hour podcast.
(Mario) It is 3 hour podcast, we have to warn the listeners. But if you're really into the Web accessibility, if you're working with that kind of thing, maybe you already know something. But this is this is something what I personally consider very, very, very dangerous, because what's happening is that this company, so-calledAccessiBe, is claiming that for the moment they have more than 100000 websites which have implemented their addon so-called.
(Hlynur) And you can see that the motivations that they are using to in order to sell their product is that, of course, companies are afraid, especially in the US, that if they are not compliant with accessibility laws, that they will get sued. So if someone says to you as a company, yeah, we can just place just one single simple code on your Web page and all your accessibility worries and problems will be gone. It's not a hard sell for them to make.
(Mario) But the problem also with the whole thing is that the accessiBe company charges Fifty dollars per month for the company to implement their solution, which was at the end non-effective. So if you count fifty dollars times a hundred thousand, you're talking we are talking about five million per month, which they're getting for blind people. On the backs of blind people, which. Basically, they're just ripping us off, and that's really not OK.
(Hlynur) Yeah, even worse, making those 100000 thousand sites actually less accessible than they were before.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah. And, you know, if you go on this AccessiByebye web page, which we will link in the podcast Señores, you will be able to find out 100 websites which have this addon installed and which have the most bloks. And. Unfortunately, in this top 100, there are a few European sites, so it started appearing also in Europe, especially on the Polish websites, Pawel I don't know if you noticed.
(Hlynur) Pawel What are you thinking?
(Mario) Yeah
(Pawel) I went to both. And they are they seem to be either state or like high... highly in the in the state area website. One is a cultural, uhmm, initiative of a city and one is a city library.
(Mario) Yeah!
(Pawel) and they are using userway from what I see, and to be honest, I Don't see the point why They're doing this because I... either I missed something or in one case, there was no button to turn on any special mode, in the other case, I found one, and they didn't do anything really, like, they didn't change any of the layout; and even when I tried to access Accessibyebye, it all seemed to be the same. There were already some accessibility features there, you could find some navigation landmarks, you could find headings, but you could also find links with quite broken descriptions where the things were, like, halfway written or somehow abbreviated as if the whole title didn't fit in the line.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Pawel) and I don't know if it's the doing of the overlay or it's basically the way the website is done, but it didn't seem to make much difference whether I turned this mode on or off, whether I had Accessibyebye on or off, so I don't know, they're probably paying some money for something that doesn't do anything or doesn't seem to be doing anything.
(Mario) Mhm.
(Pawel) Also, I went to some of these Accessibe powered websites and I found basically what it does, I guess. So the marketing behind it is that they use AI techniques to enhance the accessibility of the websites, and if you listen to the interview that Jonathan... Jonathan Mosen did to his show and the part with Michael Hingson, who is the blindness ambassador at Accessibe, you will hear that they try to identify some visual aspects of the website and try to turn them into accessibility language, so if they see a big, bold text in the middle of the page, they will assume it's a heading and they will give it a role of a heading; or if they see a list of links neatly packed together on the left side, they will assume it's a navigational menu and they will give it a landmark, an ARIA landmark of navigation area; and I tried it with some websites and, I guess because the websites were already pretty accessible as they were without the add-on, it just enhanced it with a couple of landmarks, like, OK, there was a menu already or there was a set of links, it basically identified it's a menu and it said ‚OK, navigational landmarks or navigation menu list, whatever‘... It turned some links that were already expanded, there were nested lists within lists, it basically gave them the status of a button that you can expand or collapse. It tries to identify graphics with AI and describe them, which for the time being is probably not a good idea, because especially if you're thinking of context awareness, you will not need the same kind of description of images on the website Of a governmental institutions, as you would do on the website of a shop where you want to buy for... buy some clothes. So this I don't know if... I don't think we are there yet with AI and image recognition. What I also saw was: some headings, of course, and it didn't break the websites that I was looking at, but then I don't use them every day. so probably there is something that I haven't encountered that was a deal breaker because it hasn't happened still on any of a websites where I need to do something productively, but I can think that it would be much better use if such a tool was used for advising developers or... on when they... where they could maybe make some improvements because it sometimes identifies some aspects right; and if we think about it, that's what the computer software like Screen reader used to do before; it was a lot of, if you think of JAWS, for example, before the WCAG became an accepted standard, there was a lot of guessing on the part of the screen Reader
(Mario) Yeah, there was, yeah.
(Pawel) And I think it's trying to do the same now for a fixed price on a Web page, and it would be much more use, I guess, and much more valuable learning material if it gave the same kind of feedback but would not implement it for the... for them, but tell them ‚we identified, this graphically looks like a menu. If that's right, if our guess is Right, give it the proper landmark or proper designation in code‘. And then the company could still learn, the developers would learn something, because I believe also that apart from, of course, making Internet a more inclusive place, doing accessibility by yourself is a learning experience and we are supposed to learn more about each other, how we function differently, how we have different needs, not just blind people, but in general the society; and if we take this aspect Away, OK, nothing to learn. We paid fifty dollars and we are done with all this... with the whole social group that has some different needs. Doesn't matter that‘s a couple of million people, we have done our job, we don't need to learn anything about them, we just let them be in their special screen reader mode.
(Hlynur) That is exactly the problem, that... that... that is the dream of the company, if... if they could have just a single code on their Web page.
Of course, they wa... they want to have an accessible website, othe... otherwise they wouldn't be paying 50 bucks Per month
(Pawel) Mhm.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Hlynur) for this tool. They believe that it's working. I'm not sure that if they actually know whether it's working or not, they're just being sold the idea that if you Buy this, your site will be more accessible and it will be compliant
(Pawel) Mhm
(Hlynur) to all regulations regarding
(Pawel) Yeah.
(Hlynur) accessibility and I'm not sure that any of the companies using it today are even aware whether it's working or not afterwards. It's a problem when maybe the client doesn't know the product that they're buying.
(Tanja) Yes, no, exactly. I think this is the major problem because actually, when you read the Accessibe terms of service in details, they say that actually this service doesn't make your website WCAG compliant and maybe this is everything what we want to know; but somebody who is not aware on this, like a website that is not accessible, will not understand this so for them, the advertisement ‚We will make your website accessible!‘ is enough; and I think it is extremely dangerous to solve accessibility issue with a button or with a service, and they say that there is no work needed to be done.
(Hlynur) So there is always work to be done.
(Tanja) Of course.
(Hlynur) We're not there yet that that...
(Mario) Of course!
(Hlynur) We're just not there yet that you can do this with a single code. Perhaps in twenty years, who knows, but at this point, it's... We're just not there yet and it's a good idea, it's a brilliant idea, it's a it's a good concept if it would work.
(Pawel) And it... yeah...
(Mario) Yeah, but it doesn't work, and the problem is that the people who are behind the company such as AccessiBe had a lot of fights with people from the assistive tech industry who tried to tell them ‚Look, guys, your idea isn't that bad, but your implementation sucks‘, and they really got into huge fights with people who are like into the assistive industry for years. And that's what's really sad to see that this kind of behaviour is happening and that's why they basically put Michael Hingson there to kind of fix the problems, but I am, bhuh, I'm doubting that this will be solved out. Maybe at certain points. What I'm afraid of is that they also said that they are entering the W3C consortium, and I was like, when I heard that, I was like, ‚huh?!, how is this possible?!‘ but well,
(Tanja) Exactly. Because the problem...
(Mario) it's it's up to see what's what's going on.
(Tanja) The problem is also what Pawel mentioned before, so that the tool identifies what are the big or large letters on the screen and then it translates those into a heading 1; but then you can have a heading 1 on a text that was not meant to be heading 1.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) So it gives even less confusion; and then I‘m returning back to WCAG: why we have success criteria on this if we are breaking that requirement? [laughter] So it doesn't make sense at all.
(Pawel) I guess, if the website is already accessible enough and it's made in a conventional way, ve... visually, the tool may be more successful and then people will say, ‚OK, but with this we...‘ like I have rather positive results with this because as I said, I visited a couple of websites that I don't use frequently, and I saw what it... what a difference it did, it... I would say it was rather correct, but I guess if somebody was really artistic with the way they designed the interface and things Are non-standard for whatever reason, suddenly it turns out, ‚oh, it identified something as a table as a heading, let's say, or this wasn't meant to be a menu, this was meant to be some kind of reference list and we didn't never meant to make it naviga... navigational, but it was just there, visually, and it looked like a list so the overlay assumed it's a Menu and therefore, again, I think it's more valuable for now if this Is a feed... developer feedback tool rather than an end-user solution.
(Hlynur) Yeah, definitely agree.
(Mario) Yeah. Well, you see, I... I had totally opposite experience where, for example, I saw the situations where on the Ernieball website, which I mentioned, I found the menu which you could usually expand and collapse with the standard keyboard, but if I would engage that Accessibe mode, the menu would not open or collapse. So, yeah. (Hlynur) So this is kind of we‘re... we‘re more like promoting the Accessibyebye
(Mario) At this point, we are promoting Accessibyebye because the thing is that for the moment, this kind of accessibility overlays, they are really doing more harm than help.
(Hlynur) Yeah, and it will be interesting to see, hopefully, in the coming months where where all this negative attention will lead to.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Hlynur) Will it stop? Will it just slow down or will we go back, back in time and see people stop using this kind of accessible overlays?
(Mario) Yeah, we will link everything in the in the show notes, so if you want to get more info about it...
(Hlynur) So moving on...
Audio-only media is on the rise with likes of Clubhouse and IKEA taking part in the action (Hlynur) So audio-only media seems to be on the rise with platforms like Clubhouse. So??? trending on discussions on accessibility and disability, for example, Pawel, you have checked this out.
(Pawel) Yes, uhh, Clubhouse, maybe you've heard about it already, if you haven't, it's a social network that is purely based on audio and that means there is no video component to it at all; and it's all about clubs and rooms that you can join to take part in conversations. So it's like an audio chat that you probably know from many messengers, except you can discover it in the app, you can join it and you can either listen to it or make your voice heard, come to the so-called stage because at first you're just in the audience; but of course, as in every meeting, you can raise your hand and you can ask for the microphone to be given to you and you can ask a question or you can actually take part even and be cocreator of this content and speak to people and have an exchange. I found this concept interesting. There are a couple of problems with it. For now. It's just for the iPhones, there is a release for Android expected in May, or at least the beginning of the rollout is expected in May.
(Hlynur) That's good news.
(Mario) Aha.
(Pawel) Yes, that's that's definitely good news. And you need to have an invitation to join, which makes it a bit elitist and at first it was like that, that there were only high-profile people on there. I think Elon Musk, I think Mark Zuckerberg now having interesting conversations on the future of artificial intelligence and whatnot; but you could not join because you didn't have any invite to be a part of this exclusive social network. But now it's become more open, more people have the invites, more people have more invites to give away and it's relatively easy to get in, and it's become, of course, very popular with blind people in the recent months. I already saw a lot of the blind people that I know and I saw a lot of clubs around blindness and accessibility; and for us, this is nothing new because this kind of apps were there before, if you think of Vorail or VO Rail, I think it's read.
(Mario) Yeah,
(Pawel) or there was this this other one Dabble, I think it's called. There were already audio-based only social networks, but they were mostly targeting blind people and you wouldn't find any sighted person on there. Now you can see a lot of sighted people, even as I said, big names like Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg discussing freely a lot of subjects in there. And of course, if you are going to join a meeting with Mark Zuckerberg, it's very unlikely that you will be given the voice because there are five thousand other people who would like the same, but then you can meet a lot of interesting people and network with them uhh... from different, uhh, let's say, paths of life and areas of work; and now that social network is not all that popular yet, of course, there is a huge hype on it, but it's not that mainstream, chances are that you will meet some valuable professional contacts on there. I know that a friend of mine, for example, has met a chief editor of one of the biggest Polish news sites on mobile technologies, and she was just able to chat to this person freely; Uhmm, but also, a lot of audio people, voiceover actors, musicians are playing in there, and I find it really interesting on one hand in the disability movement, there is a whole club on there called The 15 percent, which is the percentage of disabled people in the society, (I'm not sure if it's globally or in the states) but, uhh, it's some kind of percentage for disability, and they host a lot of disability advocacy meetings, be it some talk on accessibility, digital accessibility, screen reader accessibility or just advocacy, so how the subject of disability is approached socially, legally, medically in many other ways; and you will even see big names in the accessibility industry, so, for example, you will find people from Vispero hanging out on Clubhouse, giving JAWS tutorials and classes. And it seems to have taken on, there is even the Blind Podmakers Club, which is the group of Jonathan Mosen for blind podcasters, he had a mailing list before and now he has a round table every week where you can just come, there is a subject of the week and you are given basically a voice for the entire hour. So there is a short introduction and then you can ask for your voice and you can say whatever you have to say or you want to say, and these club discussions are later published as a podcast episode. So in this way, the community is building the podcast episodes all together and everyone can be a part
(Mario) Pawel, when are you hosting our, our club?
[laughter]
(Mario) for Ebu Access Cast?
(Hlynur) As soon as it hits Android we're on there.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah.
(Pawel) I am already on there with my iPod, but in order to be able to host a club, you also have to be very active with cohosting your own rooms first,
(Mario) Aha.
(Pawel) But I think it's a good idea actually [laughter] that we get on clubhouse at some point. It could, uhhm, actually help with the discussion of disability in Europe, I guess.
(Mario) Mhm.
(Pawel) And I can say that this is, uhh, not just blind people who really like it, and it's not just that sighted people check it out and leave it. I spoke to some sighted friends I have, and they seem to be excited by the idea as much as they're excited about podcasts, and I can definitely say that a lot of people listen to podcasts these days, and a lot of mainstream YouTubers, uhh, set up their own podcast as an alternative medium. And you can tell that people really would like to listen to things when they are doing something so their eyes are occupied with some activity and they have something running in the background, and a lot of people listen to podcast, a lot of people listen to audiobooks, and now there is Clubhouse where you can take part in two ways, either as a listener and then you just put your phone in the background somewhere and you just listen to what other peoples are saying, or you take part actively and you let other peoples listen to you while they are doing something else, so it's this interactive podcast sort of format; and there are, of course, some things privacy-wise that can be a bit questionable. For instance, if you're inviting a person to Clubhouse, you can see how many friends this person would have if they signed up, because as soon as you give them access to your contact list, they seem to be storing the numbers, sadly, which means that...
(Mario) Oo.
(Pawel) the next person who would like to invite will see that apart from you, twenty other people could invite this person as well; and this could be a big issue. One way in which they work around this, [laughter] which isn't really a solution, but, uhh, at least partly gives some compromise, is you don't give access to the contacts, but you just type in the number of the person manually so in this context, you can agree with this other person, ‚OK, you would like to be on there, I can give you the invite, but so that none of my contacts are exposed, I just type in your number manually. You agreed to... for your number to be shared anyway, so we do it like this‘.
(Hlynur) Mhm.
(Pawel) So in this way, it's definitely a shortcoming if you're pri... privacy-aware and focused as a lot of people are now, but,uhh, apart from this, the concept itself is really interesting also for smaller groups of friends, because when you create a room, you can give access to all your followers, which means that a lot of your friends can meet each other and in this way the networks expand and now that we are in lockdowns still pretty much all over the place, this somehow helps in meeting new people, I must say, like my experience has been that I suddenly met somebody who is a friend of a friend and it turned out to be a really nice person to talk to; and I quite like the experience and I miss, like the real events that we used to have where you could just go into a bar with some expats or international people and just meet them. Now, you can do this online. Of course it doesn't, you know, it's not the same as meeting them in person, but we live with what we have, and, yeah, I can I can say that a lot of people seem to be enjoying the experience. It's just like you can tune in for a bit, listen, then you can tune out again, change the conversation, change the channel or go away completely and then come back. And this seems to be a lot of hype now, also with sighted people, as I said, because even some companies are jumping on board and creating these audio experiences for people, and a good example of this is the newest IKEA catalogue, at least in the United States, where IKEA has released an audiobook that you can listen to on YouTube even, it's also on Spotify I heard, on Tunein, somewhere else... Audible, audible.
(Hlynur) Yeah, I checked it out on YouTube. It's actually quite entertaining.
(Pawel) Exactly. And that was the idea behind it, that they try to translate what you usually read into an entertaining experience. So it's almost like you had a back story to how IKEA furniture was created. You know, it's like you open this catalogue and suddenly you hear that there are many new Swedish words you can learn. Most of them will be Ikea furniture, but you will need them if you actually will shop for some new furniture. So let me take you on a road, on a ride and tour around what we have in our catalogue. And then this this really smiling Lady will explain to you how there is a cover of the catalogue and on the cover you will find this and that logo, which looks like this and that. And then she will go in depth into describing to you every piece of furniture they have. So while you're doing something else, maybe putting together a new IKEA furniture piece instead of swearing at how complicated the manual is and how come half of the parts you didn't know what are needed for suddenly are left out and you never put them in and you don't know why they are still there, you can just listen to what else they have in the offer and enjoy this read. And if you read into their motivations, you will realise it wasn't done for blind people really. It was actually made for everyone who would like to listen to an IKEA catalogue as a side occupation while doing something completely else.
(Hlynur) If I can speak for myself, this was very much a more pleasant way of enjoying the IKEA catalogue than which I have done in the past, which is visually.
(Pawel) Yeah, I only wish they also adapted the manuals for audio experiences somehow because I had the quote unquote pleasure of helping in putting together some IKEA furniture recently. And from what I was told, the manual is 100 percent visual. There is not a single word of description there. There are just schemes and pictures of which part goes where. And even sighted people find this confusing. Like there was a piece of furniture where there was a hole where you were supposed to put a screw. It was shown in the picture, but it wasn't really in the actual furniture. And you were supposed, although it wasn't explained to you, to drill it in yourself.
(Hlynur) You're speaking to the IKEA Assembly master of Iceland here.
(Pawel laughing)
(Hlynur) There's definitely not a single piece of furniture in my house that is not IKEA and has not been put together by me.
(Mario laughing)
(Pawel) OK.
(Hlynur) So it's 100 percent visual and it's graphic. Thankfully, I've been able to use it, but this was actually the first thing that I thought, like, OK, how if they could actually do the IKEA catalogue in this way with this high quality, one only can wonder what they could do with the assembly instructions.
(Pawel) Mm hmm. Yeah, I'm so looking forward because they could even make like an Aleksa skill where you could basically ask for instruction. There are already skills for cooking where it gives you step by step instructions for cooking a thing and you just tell it, OK, I'm ready. You give me the next step. And they could do something, some interactive way of doing this as well, I guess.
(Hlynur) Yeah. And also, like, they could probably have like most popular questions that you could ask and get the answers back, like which screws the long ones. The short ones in which step I mean, they could definitely do something like this because most of the Ikea essentials like the screws and the parts and the wooden starts and those stuff, it's always the same no matter if there's a shelf or a bed.
(Mario) Hlynur, there is a next project for you man.
(Hlynur) Yep. On it,
(Pawel) There are Youtube videos assembling IKEA furniture while blindfolded, but I don't know how successful that was.
(Mario) Uh.
(Hlynur) Oh, there is something to check out tonight.
(Pawel) Yeah. (Laughing)
(Mario) Yeah. After mousepads you can do IKEA manuals.
(Hlynur) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I‘ve definitly heard worst ideas.
(Mario) I was being serious. (Laughing)
(Hlynur) I know, I know you were. (Laughing)
- This is actually this is actually great. And I'm not not much of a audiobook user myself, but this also hangs together with just the average person, if you would, more and more using or choosing to use audio bookscc than just regular old school reading.
(Mario) Mhm.
(Hlynur) So I don't think that this is something that would or will only be used by blind and visually impaired.
(Pawel) Yeah, I hope so. I hope it will stay, especially when it comes to clubhouse. I hope it will stay after we go back to meeting physically again, because that's one of the worries for now that people use it so much because that's the way for them to meet others, to debate, to take part in discussions. And once everything goes back to normal, there would be no need for such tools anymore. And then clubhouse will be basically deserted.
(Hlynur) I wouldn't count on I wouldn't bet on it. I think they have surpassed the point where they where the project could die a slow and painful death. I mean, covid has definitely been like a rocket fuel on their engine, like people being isolated in different countries for over a year. So that has definitely been something to speed up the increased number of people joining Club House, but I think this is something that if it's not only maybe for like being able to reach out to successful people or people with shared interests in other countries, I mean, I think
That we will see a somewhat different world when it comes to like travelling for conferences after covid, because we have seen and experienced
What technology can do for us when it comes to meeting other people. It doesn't have to be in the physical, real world.
(Mario) Yes, I agree with that.
(Pawel) And you Can also see that other companies are picking up on this trend because Twitter is working, and it's actually about to make it available for everyone, their Twitter spaces, which is basically the idea of clubhouse build into Twitter. And Facebook is also working on their Facebook rooms. Telegram has actually made it available for people to host voice chats up to some really huge number of people. I don't know if...
(Mario) I think I don't know whether it's now unlimited, but it's something huge you're talking about. I think like seven thousand or seven hundred thousand, something insane.
(Pawel) Yeah, exactly. So it‘s definitely with audiences...
(Hlynur) So we could possibly we could possibly host an EBU Access Cast show in their.
(Mario) Yeah, we could.
(Pawel) Technically, yeah.
(Hlynur) I guess 100.000 people could be enough for one session.
(Mario) Sure.
(Pawel) Hmm.
Um, yeah. So you can tell that it wasn't unnoticed. And it's not just a gimmick and the industry at large seems to be interested in the idea itself. So the question is whether it will be clubhouse that survives or the idea behind clubhouse that survives. But if it ends up being popular in any form, I'm happy. I'm happy because I really like this form of meeting people, especially now and the fact that you can discover basically any topic that interests you. I think they're also working on this for the future, that you can, for example, easily find all the rooms where people discuss current events and it would be really good for some world wide events where there is a lot of visuals involved to just hop in and ask for some description or just discuss this and so on. I saw already people discussing films in this way, blind people and sighted people, and it's I think it's a good common ground for us, for the two social groups to to meet and exchange. There is actually in Poland a whole series of events dedicated to blind people streaming every week where each... I think it's each Wednesday, a different aspect of living with blindness is explained, and there are people coming actually to these events and asking questions, and any blind person can also come and share their experiences, so I hope this will also contribute to greater understanding of how this works within the society at large.
(Hlynur) So moving on.
Sight City 2021 will be virtual only The Sight City 2021 conference supposed to be held in Frankfurt, Germany, will be online.
(Mario) Ja, ja.
(Hlynur) From the 19th to the 21st of May, Tanja you have some insights on that one for us.
(Tanja) Yes. So I was on Sight City, on the last Sight City 2019, because last year, 2020 was not organised at all.
(Hlynur) Yeah, like we discussed earlier, like with like the Eurovision contest that Iceland would have won but didn't.
(Mario laughing)
(Pawel) The next chance is just around the corner.
(Hlynur laughing)
(Tanja) So, this year is virtual. But unfortunately, the number of exhibitors is not like in 2019. So this year will be 75 at least. This is a number what is published now in April on Sight City website.
(Hlynur) Yeah, but the Web page, of course, doesn't say that it will be online, though.
(Tanja) It says, but unfortunately, there are information the same as for the physical event that were not removed and this is extremely confusing. I think they should archive this part of the website saying that it's physical because you can still find information about the pickup service, about the cafeteria and so on. It is extremely confusing. At the same time, on the home page, you see 2021 will be virtual, but they don't say exactly on which platform, how you can access it. And even when you go to the „list of exhibitors“, you can have the booth number. And when you click on the booth number to show it on the map, there is an error on the page.
(Mario laughing)
(Tanja) So it is extremely confusing. Yes, but what they say is that the recordings will be available until 26. We don't know where, but maybe they will publish this because Sight City is like in three weeks or four weeks now.
(Hlynur) Yeah, I mean, we're getting close. Time is of the essence. And just when you were talking I saw that it does say „virtual exhibition“.
(Tanja) Mhm.
(Hlynur) But this is like the fifth time that I have checked out this site and this is the first time that I see it.
(Tanja) Exactly. And even if you search for a list of exhibitors, it's not clear because you have to go under „Visitor“ and then under „List of exhibitor“, because if you go from the home page „Exhibitors“, you will find information for exhibitors that are not even updated. Those are information that you would need for the real physical event. So it's quite confusing, but I hope that the event will be successful. As I said, the number of exhibitors will be not like in 2019, where they had 135 exhibitors. This year they will have 75. But still there are some manufacturers very known. So I don't know if they will give the opportunity to visitors to ask the questions like on a booth. This would be very nice because there are some big manufacturers like, um, I don't know if I can mention -now as we are announcing... Like Optelec, like Orcam, APH and different...
(Hlynur) Dolphin here also.
(Tanja) Exactly. Humanware and the different manufacturers of Braille displays, navigation systems, daily living. So different stuff for blind and partially sighted. There are many German companies.
So if you...
(Hlynur) Naturally.
(Tanja) Yes.
(Pawel) A majority this year.
(Tanja) Yes. So if you speak German, maybe you will have even more information there. And that's it about the Sight City. So we are really looking forward to see more about it.
(Hlynur) Yeah, it is free admission I could see on the page.
(Tanja) Yes.
(Hlynur) So we just wait like everyone else, we just wait for the information to where to meet and which platform they will use.
(Mario) Yeah, we hope that we will not find the information in 2022, but, yeah, let's hope for the best.
(Tanja) Yes. I think they would really need to clean up the website from old information and new one, it seems that they were just not prepared for the virtual one. Like reading their website is extremely confusing.
(Mario) Well, just by listening to you, I became dizzy. (laughing)
(Tanja) Yes.
How to transfer audio from your phone to a PC (Demo) (Hlynur) OK, so last but not least on this show, we want to showcase for you a demo of how to transfer audio from your phone to PC via Bluetooth Mario that is something that you were doing.
(Mario) Yeah, that's what I was doing. And basically, it's a very simple thing, which you need to do. You will hear it in the demo. But I will just mention it briefly here. You need to do. First of all, you need to have a Windows 10 at least addition 2004, which I hope everybody updated to, which came out last year.last May. And in that version of from that version, you are able to use a Bluetooth capabilities with one additional small software that you can get on the Microsoft store. It's called Bluetooth audio receiver. It's a free thing, so you just go on the Microsoft store, install Bluetooth receiver, and then do a pairing between your phone and your PC. And you just opened Bluetooth audio receiver and click on Open Connexion and basically you're done. Your audio from your smartphone then goes to PC. So then whatever you need to do, you can transfer your audio to your PC, which, for example, for us is really interesting when we want to showcase any kind of app or whatever to some kind of tutorial, audio tutorial where we need to show something on the on the phone, how it sounds. That's good, because we can then transfer the audio as it is and it's also in stereo. So, yeah, everything is loud and clear.
(Hlynur) Yeah. I was just wondering, do you know what was the name of the Samsung paring tool for a Samsung Galaxy device and a PC?
(Mario) That's your phone. But that's another thing that's supposed to do kind of the same thing. And also transfer the audio from your PC to the phone. But if you want to do this easier way, this is what we have done in the demo, because you don't need to have some Samsung phone , you can have any kind of phone, from my understanding, this is that this works also with the iPhones.
(A jingle which says demo time, let's play with our gadgets)
(Mario) And it is time for another demo for the EBU Access Cast, and this time for you, I'm going to show you one very useful tip, how to connect your mobile phone to the PC via Bluetooth so that you're able to transfer your audio from your phone to your PC. Now, you might ask yourself, why do I need such a facility? And the simple answer is that, well, because you might want to stream whatever you want to have from your phone onto your PC or you want to record something that's kind of tutorial that you want to do. If you want to show any kind of mobile app, then it's very useful to have the audio transferred to your PC so you're able to record the signal from your phone. So it sounds nice and clear. Now the question is, what do we need for that? Well, first of all, you need to have Windows 10 because we will be showing that on the Windows 10 platform and you need to have at least Windows 10 version, 2004, which was released at spring 2020. And after that, you need to have a simple programme. Called Audio Bluetooth Receiver, so you will find the audio Bluetooth receiver on the Microsoft store and I already have it installed on my PC, but I will show you how you can find it. So I'm going to
(Computer) Start
(Mario) with the
Start and search for store.
(Computer) Microsoft store app, press right to switch preview, 1 of 5.
(Mario) I'm going to launch the store,
(Computer) Microsoft store.
And we're going to go to search
(Computer) view downloads, user profile button, search button 1 of 3. Search tooltip.
(Mario) Here's a search. So I will type Bluetoothaudio receiver
(Computer) Search button, . One suggestion. Results for Bluetooth Audio Receiver, results updated. List. Departments filter all departments selected combo boxcollapsed collapsed .
(Mario) Let's see.
Available on filter pc selected combo box collapsed, . show all apps list List, Bluetooth Audio Receiver. Available devices, pc XBox one, Holow lense, installed 1 of 3.
(Mario) This is what We are searching for. But.
(Computer) Back Button, landmark button, Get Bluetooth Audio receiver Microsoft Store
Button button button Collapsed.
(Mario) So here we are now on the page of the Bluetooth Audio Receiver And
(Computer) Main landmark clickable heading level 1, Bluetooth Audio Receiver, published by grouping clickable Mark Smirnov.
(Mario) so we can see the developer is called Marc Smirnov, who developed the app. So in order to install the app, we would go on the get button. OK, now I don't have the get button because I already have it installed
(Computer) Launch button
(Mario) because I have it installed. It's showing me the launch button, but if I would not have the app installed, I would have the get button. So after you pressed the button, you would get it from the store to download and install.
So how the whole procedure looks,
We have to pare
Our PC with the phone. Then open Bluetooth receiver. And search for the Bluetooth device. And then click on the Open Connexion button, so what I'm going to do right now is I'm going to search for my phone on the Bluetooth settings, then I'm going to open Bluetooth receiver and open the connexion,
(Computer) List, Mario's xcover pro 1 of 1, connect button,
(Mario) connect.
(Computer) cancel button cancel button.,
(Computer) pare device window Windows shell experience host window, device pairing experience device. Does the pin match on your device match the pin below 990128, yes button.
(Phone) repeats the same pin number followed by cancel button.
(Phone) paire button. MarioHP pairing.
(Mario) Let's launch Bluetooth Audio Receiver,
Computer) Bluetooth Audio Receiver, Bluetooth Audio Receiver window list, list item not selected 1 of 1.
(Mario) We see one device so let's click on that.
(Computer) open connection list item 1 of 1.
()phone speaks thru computer sound card) Audio output.
(Mario) And our phone is connected.
(Phone)No devices found Carlisle hours 0583 double tap to activate no devices found. Back tap TalkBack,
No devices found back back, settings search
Mario) Now we can see that the phone is connected
(Phone) battery 85% Wifi signal Bluetooth connected
Connected translate notification, Display brightness notification, double tap to activate.
((Mario) We can see that the stuff is working if I Close my screen.
(Phone) Screen off.
(Mario) It's going to close. Unlock my phone,
(Phone) Device unlocked20.11 .
(Mario) It will say device unlocked and you can see that everything works as expected.
So, This is our demo of The Bluetooth Audio Receiver
and pairing of the smartphone. I hope you enjoyed it and see you in the next demo.
(Hlynur) So we want to thank you very much for listening and for joining us here. We'll talk to you again in about six weeks with our 31st episode of the EBU Access Cast. Thank you guys for joining me on this. My first session as a lead host. I'm privileged to be around you guys. And thank you very much. And see you all later.
(everyone) Bye bye. Bye bye.
(Outro Jingle) Thank you for listening to EBU Access Cast, if you want to contact us, you can send us an e-mail to ebuaccesscast@euroblind.org or find Us on Twitter @ebuaccesscast
Welcome back to the 29th episode of the Ebu Access Cast, one away from thirty.
In this episode, hosted by Pawel and co-hosted by Tanja, Mario and Hlynur, we find the time to look into the future indeed, but for most of the time we stay focused on what matters for now, of course.
In absence of new gadgets from either of the Podcast crew, Mario shares with us the Story of how the name Bluetooth came to signify the popular data transmission protocol and it turns out to be a valuable lesson of common history and geography as well as an insight into how technological inventions receive their often unusual names.
Did we already mention that this episode is out of this world? This is not us bragging about it, rather we had a chance to discuss the landing of the Perseverance rover on Mars which, apart from the next foray onto the red planet, brought us the first ever recordings from out of Earth, some of which we are happy to present to you in the podcast directly. In this section we also find out how far it is really from Iceland to Mars and that the European Space Agency is actually thinking of recruiting disabled astronauts in the framework of their Parastronaut Feasibility Project.
For those who are hungry for more space adventure, here are some more sounds of Mars.
While space agencies of the world are busy exploring other planets, the new Talkback has moved outside of the Galaxy and is now available on many more phones than just the latest Samsungs. Those of us running Android share the first and not so first experiences and mourn the slow demise of some old TTS voices that cease to work on many devices due to the lack of support for the 64-bit infrastructure. What we did not mention in the show as it happened shortly after its recording is the update of the Samsung version of Talkback which brings back the integrated Braille keyboard so there is no need to put extra work to enjoy this functionality on these phones.
Fortunately, the fate of the voices we mentioned earlier has been narrowly missed by the Icelandic-speaking community who will soon be able to enjoy new voices and other tools for the Icelandic language. As this has been a long-term project that is finally showing some results and everything has been built from scratch, we speak of a large-scale achievement that has the potential to improve the quality of life for an entire nation. Well done Iceland!
We also discuss the new Humanware Brailliant line of Braille Displays. Is a device that lies in between a traditional braille display and a feature-packed Braille notetaker sporting an entire operating system something that will interest the assistive technology market? We will probably see about that in due course.
Meanwhile, we will learn how to be Handsome, thanks to a French fintech that claims to be the first bank dedicated to disabled customers. Their connected payment card which allows a blind user to track the entire payment process through their smartphone sounds sweet indeed but is it the final solution to the inaccessibility of payment terminals?
Finally, as the world is beginning to enjoy access to the long-awaited COVID-19 vaccine, we wonder whether blind people can partake in this access and apply for their shot independently. We share our impressions regarding the accessibility of vaccination application procedures and, in some cases, application for a COVID-19 test.
Remember that, should you be lost about how to fill in accessibility bug reports regarding public sector websites, there are resources available that will help you out such as this report template from Big Hack.
Provided we will still be on this planet in six weeks’ time, we will catch up with you in the 30th episode of the show. Meanwhile, we hope you enjoy this one. Should you have any questions, remarks or content you would like to contribute, you can reach us by email at ebuaccesscast@euroblind.org or twitter!
As always, you can also explore the transcript of this episode.
All the best from our entire team!
Transcript of EBU Access Cast - episode 29 (jingle)
This programme is financially supported by the fundings from the European Commission.
You are listening to the EBU Access Cast. The official podcast from European Blind Union about assistive technology for blind and partially sighted people.
And here is our host.
Introduction (Pawel) Welcome again back to the latest episode of EBU Access Cast, this is the episode 29, already close to 30. That's quite an impressive age for a podcast like this. And I must say, I'm really excited about what we're going to unfold both this time and the next time around as well at the 30th episode. But now let's stay in the present and let's see who is with us today. We have Tanja from Luxembourg. Hello.
(Tanja) Hello Pawel.
(Pawel) And we have Mario also from Luxembourg. Hey there.
(Mario) Hello.
(Pawel) Hello. And last but not least, we have also Hlynurrr from Iceland. I hope I got it right this time.
(Hlynur) Thank you. Yeah.
That was an excellent rrr, Great! and very tough to follow Mario with his introductions.
(Pawel) And I am Pawel, who recently also has become known as the Inspector Gadget on duty.
(A jingle of Inspector gadget cartoon in the background)
And I'm from Austria currently and I'll be hosting this episode. So let's get on with the show. And what is in the show, you might ask? Well, we have very interesting subjects and actually the first one will be a bit futuristic. I said we’ll stay in the present, but we we’ll still go in… a bit in the future because we'll be discussing Mars and specifically the newest expedition of NASA to the Red Planet and what it means for blind people and accessibility. Then we still come back to the subject of TalkBack on Android, because not only is it available on Samsungs now, but it's pretty much rolled to most, if not all Android devices to date. So some more of us actually had the chance to play with it. Then Hlynur will report on the latest developments in Iceland in regards to the speech technologies that are being developed for the Icelandic language. And we'll discuss also some new Braille displays from human Ware then a really interesting French service called Handsome, which has nothing to do with beauty, actually, but more with banking and which is the first probably the first world's fintech bank-like service dedicated to people with disabilities. And towards the end of the show, we will discuss the vaccination application processes for Corona in different countries, so we'll be able to see how accessible it is to apply for a vaccine and to get a test and to exchange the bit of the experiences we have with the systems.
Fun Fact of The Show: Where does the name Bluetooth come from? (Pawel) So before we get into this all, any gadgets from any of you?
(Tanja) Not this time.
(Mario) nope!
(Hlynur) Not for me.
(Pawel) Surprisingly… surprisingly, nothing from me either, but, well, Easter is just around the corner, so you never know, but apparently…
(Mario) this year, this year is coming sooner than later. So, yeah.
(Hlynur) double trouble
(Pawel) and just one episode of Distance between Christmas and Easter. That's pretty cool for the gadget section, I guess.
But that doesn't mean we don't have anything extra for you this time. Mario, you actually found out something really interesting, because I've been thinking for quite a while that Bluetooth is quite a strange name for a standard that allows you to exchange data between technical devices.
I mean, wi fi just sounds almost like hi fi and you can tell there is some high tech behind it.
But Bluetooth, that sounds really odd. And then in one of my lectures at university when I studied British history, I heard about this Viking king or leader or chief who was called Harald the Bluetooth and participated in some conquest of early conquest of England. And I found this interesting, but I never researched this. And it seems like you have some interesting stuff about this.
(Mario) Yeah. So the Bluetooth standard, as we know, was developed in the mid 90s and it was developed in the Ericsson company.
And in the 1998, two of the engineers who worked on the thing, which we know as Bluetooth today, they were supposed to present this and they had to have a code name for the standard. So they get around on the conference where they needed to present the stuff and they went for a few beers, (as all the developers do(. And yeah, so after a few stories about different subjects, they started talking about the Vikings and the Scandinavian mythology. And eventually they also discovered this king from the Denmark.
Harald the Bluetooth existed, and, well, they then decided that this code named for the stuff that we know and used today. Will be called Bluetooth. So, yeah, Harald the Bluetooth was responsible for that.
(Pawel) This is really interesting how different like everyday objects or places or historical events, characters inspire technology to be named after them. Like, I only I think it was a year ago or two years ago I found out that Ubuntu, which we probably know as a Linux distribution, is a beach in the Netherlands where you can actually come. And it's one of these fancy beaches where you actually have to pay to enter, but it's a great tourist site, apparently, and it's really… It has like a full service for a beach like a lot of… fully equipped bar with snacks and drinks, Wi-Fi connection and a lot of luxury, really. And I had no idea this was like a real place. But even looking at Apple every macOS release right now, is named after some landmark in the United States, some national park or some other place. So it's really, really interesting what inspires people to name technology after.
(Mario) So the Android versions have also different bunch of snacks for every code we had, like. Yeah, and Oreos to cookies to work or whatever.
(Pawel) There are probably no beers involved in naming that.
(Mario) I guess not yet, but you never know.
(Hlynur) I just can't wait for the Samsung Hlynur which might come out of it. So I don't know what it will do, but it will be great.
(Mario Laughs)
Accessibility in the news (Jingle)
Accessibility in the news.
The ESA Parastronaut Feasibility Project and the first recordings of Mars So we've discussed how different things are named after historical places and historical people and now something that will definitely join our historical landscape for good, the newest expedition of NASA to Mars. And in general, what's interesting is happening in the spectrum of space exploration in regards to disability. Before we go to NASA and Mars, Tanja you had some really interesting article about how ESA so the European Space Agency wants to include disabled astronauts in their upcoming moon and Mars missions. Does that mean we will go to will go to space as soon as blind people or is somebody sending us into space?
(Tanja) They are surely open to this.
They're interested in opening this page of history because up until now, there were no disabled astronauts and there were also few women astronauts.
So the article says that there have been only 64 women astronauts out of 560 in total. So the number is quite low. So they're interested in more diversity. Regarding the type of disabilities, I didn't find exact information, so, they say that they're interested in persons with physical disabilities and they have three categories, like the one that cannot fulfil still their criteria, the one in yellow and one in green, but I didn't find an explanation exactly… Maybe when you are applying, because they have now an open selection procedure. Maybe when you're applying, you can see all the criteria. I'm not sure if blind persons would enter in the green category, but it would be interesting to see anyway, they're interested.
This is Parastronaut Feasibility Project and also I checked their site, if you have also any difficulties with the application, you can also contact them by email.
But I think they would need, also, to improve a little bit the accessibility of the site.
(Pawel) Well, I saw a different article about this and well, it seems like the main disabilities they have in mind are people of short posture and people with prosthetic limbs, for example.
(Tanja) Mm hmm.
(Pawel) So I didn't see blindness mentioned specifically the question is…
(Mario) Yeah, because for blindness, you need to have a black category.
(Everyone laughs)
(Pawel) Anyway yeah, I would be really interested to see if that will be green or yellow if we have a chance to be there. I wasn't following what you need to do to survive in space, but since they are looking, for example, for IT people, I could definitely see some people helping with some kind of calculations or some software handling issues. Is there anything external that could prevent blind people from going into space? That is a good question. I never really thought about this.
(Tanja) Yeah, actually, I think what would be interesting for us is being blind, what someone can describe as what you can see, because otherwise you don't benefit at all. because I guess when you're going on such a mission, you are checking also what is new. And even if you have a AI, can AI tell what is new? So I'm not sure I see the limitations, but also maybe they can push technology more to cover the spectrum. Yeah, I don't know, it's difficult for me to say, but it's impressive that they are now searching for persons with disabilities. It surely opens a new page.
(Pawel) Since we actually mentioned the things that would be interesting to blind people.
I think there is something that we can already discuss that is available to us. And these are the sounds of Mars, because not only ESA, but also NASA, as we said, Send their rover into space, the Perseverance. And this rover actually is the first one probably to record actual sound from space on the microphones.
(Mario) Yeah it is the first one.
(Pawel) Yeah. And even during their press conference, NA… the NASA spokesperson mentioned that the one of the reasons why they did it was so that blind people could also hear how Mars sounds like and. Well, how does it sound to you?
Because we heard the samples, right? I heard some. And it sounded like some heavy, heavy pumping was taking place.
(Mario) So the clip that they posted is about 40 seconds long or something like that or about a minute. And in the first 10 seconds, what you can hear is you're hearing the basically the rover engine. And after 10 seconds, you hear the wind from Mars starting to blow for about a few seconds. And that that sounds spooky, man. That really like it's spooky. You don't hear anything else except that wind sounds, which was like a very slow breeze, which lasted for a few seconds and then it stopped. And then the last like 20 seconds of the clip, there is nothing. It's dead silence. For a few times I have been in those dead rooms that are called like very, very hardly soundproof room where you really can't hear anything inside. And it reminds me of that in oh man, as a blind person I didn't feel comfortable to, to say the least,
(Pawel) Were there also descriptions of the processes that were going on in there or just the sounds and you just have to guess what kind of process is happening on Mars right now or like what does it?
(Mario) you mean on that sound samples?
(Pawel) Yeah, yeah.
(Mario) Yeah, actually. So there was kind of written description in the article which I read like what's happening during that clip. And they said that the only thing what you can hear is the sound and the sound of the wind, and eventually that's true. Like you hear like just this rover engine and. That very light wind breeze which came from Mars and there is eventually nothing else, it's absolutely dead, dead silent.
(Hlynur) Yeah, maybe we could even show those clips. There are like three clips that they have.
The first clip was just named First Sounds from Mars. And that's just the raw audio
(sound of the first sounds from Mars)
Then they have the first sounds from Mars, which they have filtered.
(filtered sounds from Mars)
And then the third one is actually the rover fluid pump.
(sound with the rover fluid pump)
(Mario) Ok, so that's what maybe what Pawel heard.
(Pawel) That could be yes.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Pawel) Another cool thing that NASA did, but what is not so cool is that it wasn't accessible, is an application on the website where you can record your own voice, send it to Mars, get it back and hear the difference between you on Earth and you on Mars. And Hlynur, you tried it and you will present it to us, right? How was the experience?
(Mario) Not accessible [laughs]
(Hlynur) No, of course, it was not accessible. I'm not happy about that. It's weird.
(Tanja) We have to inform NASA.
(Hlynur) Yeah, yeah, we do. Houston, we have a problem [with ambient sound effect]
(Pawel) OK.
(Hlynur) So what actually happens is that the sound travels not as far as on Earth just because there's less air. And it kind of sounded like you are talking through a wall, a thin wall.
[Example showcased where Hlynur says] Unfortunately blind people can not hear themselves on Mars because this button for recording is not accessible for screen reader users.
(Hlynur) But we just have to get this thing accessible so people can start trying it out for themselves.
(Pawel) Yeah, well, maybe they will open source the technology and we'll see some kind of VST effect that simulates this kind of impression or a voice changer app.
(Hlynur) Or maybe we could just be those disabled astronauts that they're looking for.
(Pawel) Exactly.
(Mario) Pawel, are you looking for a travelling adventure?
(everyone laughs)
(Pawel) Umm, I would prefer to see some more of Earth first, but who knows, maybe at some point.
(Hlynur) After Covid, I’d go anywhere.
(Pawel) [Singing] Ground control to Major Paul.
[everyone laughs]
(Mario) Yeah yeah.
The new Talkback reaches more devices (Pawel) Yeah, well, one can always dream, but what we already can have and we do have it on more devices now, is the new TalkBack 9.1 that was promised for a long time and that we already knew what it contained. But now we can test it on some more devices. And even I got this already on my Motorola Moto One running Android 10 officially over Play Store. And well, my first impression was “God finally, we have proper language switching”. I don't know about your impressions, Hlynur and Mario because you are also Android users. How does it feel this new TalkBack?
(Hlynur) I'm scared of it. So I've been using it for just a short time and I've been mainly using, like voice assistant and also I'm not a regular screen reader user. So probably Mario is better sharing his experience than I am.
(Mario) In my case I had very interesting experiences for the last 4 weeks, in fact. And the thing was that my phone got the update to Android 11 at the beginning of February. So Samsung decided to hurry up with the update because first I was supposed to get it in March, but I got it in February and as we expected and as we previously reported, yes, the thing is that after you go and proceed with the update, you are getting a new TalkBack on the Samsung devices which eventually is now very similar to the official Google TalkBack 9.1, which just got released. Unfortunately, until now, the difference is that there is no Braille keyboard inside of the Samsung TalkBack, and the more and more rumours are saying that the Braille keyboard will arrive in the March security update for Samsung devices. So it might be that if you're having a Samsung that you will get the update for TalkBack on Samsung which will bring back the Braille keyboard. Other than that, it's great to see, yes, that we got, as you said, Pawel, proper language switching, which now has to be used by multiple finger gestures on Android 11, but if you have Android 10 or the phones, which are not updated to the latest March security patch then you will not have multiple gestures for the moment. The multiple gestures will arrive with the March update and that will only work for Samsung phones or Google Pixels. These are the news for the moment, so if you have any other brand of phone and you are migrating to Android 11 there is very high chance that you will not have multiple gestures.
(Pawel) And this is going to stay like this or is just for now? We don’t know, huh?
(Mario) This is going to stay so far as long as Android 12 doesn't come out.
(Pawel) And that's interesting. I thought that, like, more phones supported the multi finger gestures by default on 11 before.
(Mario) Yeah, this is correct. And my understanding is that what they what they have done is that they introduced these multiple gestures and as we could see in the TalkBack, it was first as an experimental feature. The truth is that while they were working, there were some phones even on the Samsung phones, they were not 100 percent accurate. So my initial guess is that they are tweaking them and they're working on improvements, and that's why they decided to pull them back until everything is not polished. So they will bring them back then in Android 12. So the only people who will be able to use it are Pixel users and Samsung users.
(Pawel) I think the good news is also there that it's not the end of the journey. There are more rapid updates promised a more rapid development. It sounds so convoluted by my understanding is that we will see more frequent updates or my hope is that we will see more frequent updates of TalkBack. And also other manufacturers are invited to join Google in co-developing accessibility solutions. So I think this is something that Android needs to address in a way and good that they're doing this because on iOS to compare, it's much easier to maintain a stable base for accessibility since you are manufacturing only one set of phones and Android, the main accusation was always there that these other phones like Xiaomi or Motorola, HTC, whatever you buy, you don't know what you're getting and what you don't know what will be the next feature that's not going to work as intended. So I hope this will somehow improve the state of matters on Android and they’ll be really good.
(Hlynur) This is just basically a typical pros and cons when it comes to Android and iOS, both have its pros and both have its cons. We had some trouble in Iceland because we have the main Icelandic voices that we are currently using are third party voices, which have stopped working in most occasions for those who have been updating to the Android 11. In some cases we have managed to get them working again and to retrieve them. But not in all cases, so we actually have had to advise those who are here in Iceland and would like to have the Icelandic voices up and running, that they do not upgrade to the Android 11.
(Mario) It's unfortunate to hear.
(Pawel) Yeah, exactly, I mean, I guess not only Icelandic, a lot of other languages where custom made TTS solutions were used, are going to be affected similarly, if this wasn’t developed for a while.
(Hlynur) And that probably has been the case, even though we might have not heard of it.
(Pawel) Yeah, Mario you had similar incidents, right, with your voices? They disappeared at the beginning, right?
(Mario) I did. That happened to me when I had the update from the 8.2 to 9.1 of version of TalkBack. So after I did the update, my half of TTS engines, which were older and which did not update for a while, disappeared completely. And I thought, OK, if they disappeared, they're no longer working. But then I decided to play around a bit more and I discovered that they are still installed on my phone and I could see each of the app for them, separately available on the phone. So after I would launch certain apps such as, let's say, the Eloquence app. After that, it showed up in the speech setting, so I was able to launch it and that worked for the rest of the TTS engines as well. So I got them back, all of them.
(Pawel) Yeah, that's good to hear. We were already told for some time that 32 bit applications will have to go and Eloquence officially pulled out of the play store. But it's good to see that at least on some devices, people still have a little bit of time to get used to the state of facts and to switch to something else if they have the option or to negotiate with the companies to make the necessary improvements. I'm happy about the update. I'm on Android 10, as I said. So not so many problems. I was even happy to see that the dictation part, the voice commands part, works in Polish. I was surprised. I wasn't expecting this to work. And now we have to wait for more languages in the Braille keyboard. Hopefully they will come at some point.
(Mario) I don't know how do they pick the languages for Braille keyboard, because in the newest update they just got to Spanish and Arabic from new languages and I really don't understand why they choose just those two instead of adding a bunch of those big European languages. There are none like there is no French, no German, no Russian. No, even no Polish, Pawel.
(Pawel) Yeah, I know.
(Hlynur) No Icelandic probably either.
(Mario) Yeah, no Icelandic, yeah.
(Pawel) Probably they work on them one by one.
The project to develop specific technologies for the Icelandic language (Pawel) But what is available in Icelandic is, or what is planned to be released soon is a set of tools to help blind users of the Icelandic language to use their assistive technology so speech synthesisers, speech recognition, auto correction. Hlynur, this is a great achievement isn't it?
(Hlynur) It is. It is something that our association here has been, let's just say, fighting for, for over a decade. We have been talking about like we need to get new Icelandic natural speaking voices, that is around probably 13 years ago. And things have changed since then because we were getting like people just saying, no, no, that's OK, we can just come as volunteers and read books for the blind. And it ended up that in 2011 The Icelandic Association of the Visually Impaired took initiative and managed to finance, amongst others, to build new Icelandic voices with the Polish company IVONA.
(Pawel) I remember that coming out and I was surprised to see Icelandic like there are these big languages and suddenly there is Icelandic. And I was like, cool.
(Hlynur) Yeah
(Pawel) There is one of these languages also available.
(Hlynur) When there are few living in a country, then usually it costs more. We have to do more ourselves because for those, let's say, larger countries, then you have those like Google, Amazon, Apple and Microsoft, they will build a voice for Spanish, for German, for English, for Chinese. They will build those voices themselves. And naturally, I understand, of course, they don't see any benefit for them to spend money on like, Icelandic voice or anything of that degree where they live like 370000 people, but this plan was finally initiated in 2018. That was the plan. It got delayed by one year, so it's a five year plan from 2019 probably now until 2023 where the main goal is basically to save the Icelandic language as we save from like from digital death. And they're like five core projects for it, that is to develop Icelandic speech recognition so that we can talk to our devices. There's new speech synthesis. I think they're talking about, what, like ten new voices which are being built now also for like machine translation, spell and grammar correction and checking. And also, which I find very, very interesting, is just those open source language resources. So the plan is OK. Let's say we're having a discussion with Microsoft. OK, Microsoft, you have no interest in building an Icelandic speech recognition or speech synthesis. OK, how about this? We've done 99 percent of the work for you. You basically just need to go and get it and install it and provide it. So that is basically what they are doing here.
(Pawel) Here's to hoping that it's going to work. I when I started using computers, let’s say, at the age of 12, 13, Polish was already quite recognised, but not quite yet, in the way that, of course, there is Ivona, there were a couple of other older robotic sounding synthesisers, even some hardware ones, we had Apollo actually from Dolphin too.
(Mario) Yeah, we had it also for Croatian.
(Pawel) Yeah, many people still miss it. Hmm. I still know some people who use it and are really happy, off some convertors from RS to USB. But and there was Realspeak so like the former, like one of the former Nuance voices but that was about it. Acapela and all this Loquendo people just started coming on the scene when I started using computers and now I see that Polish is pretty fast adopted when it comes. Of course, we have a much larger user base than Icelandic, I guess. But still, it's not like the first language the big companies think of. It's fortunately moving ahead now. But look at the Braille keyboard and Google TalkBack. It's not like one of the first languages you would think. And I'm always happy to see that the support is provided. But we still, for example, lack proper voice assistant support apart from Google assistant, which let's say it works, but it's not as conversational as in English and some of the features are limited. We don't have any voice assistance for now. So I'm pretty much I can feel what kind of a terrific deal that is to you, that finally there is something going on for Icelandic. We also have some minority languages in Poland, like I come from a region where one of those is spoken and we don't have any kind of support for this. Nobody is thinking of trying to develop any kind of accessibility framework around it. I mean, in general, there is still this huge argument whether they are actual languages or just dialects.
So I guess there is this problem of recognition on a national level; and I only recently found out that there is somebody in the States who is a language enthusiast and he built an actual Braille support for these languages, so, yeah, I can imagine how how much of improvement this would be in in Iceland, and I really hope this succeeds on a larger scale. You said you were building everything from scratch, right? There is no base in like MBROLA or any other open source like eSpeak. This is everything is build…
(Hlynur) No, I, I believe everything is being built from from scratch.
(Pawel) Wow! This is such amount of work.
(Hlynur) We have a lot of institutions like two of the major Icelandic universities where most of the, like, research work is done. We have the national broadcast television station that they are using those studios for better quality once recording the voices, and there are just many, many different institutions and companies coming together. They released the first app called Ampla???, which is like, let's just call it a a a basic Siri. It will not perform any actions for you, but you can ask it in in Icelandic uhh like uhh “What's the time?” or “Where am I?” or “Where is the next bus stop?” and “Who is…” And then you say the name of the president of Iceland, so she can, like, look for information for you uhmm and do a bit of maths calculations, she knows a bit of history, but you can't ask her to, like, buy two tickets to the movies tonight for a specific movie. Tha… That is like the first step, but that is still the first time ever that you have been able to speak Icelandic to your mobile phone and it understands you.
(Pawel) Wow, that's really impressive. I really hope it’s expanded with time.
(Mario) That’s, that’s impressive, yeah.
(Hlynur) And it talks back to you in Icelandic.
(Pawel) Yay! So there are very we're looking probably looking at very exciting times ahead.
(Mario) I was just wondering what's happening with these opensource, TTS developments in general, like does anybody know what's going on because MBROLA is no longer developed and maintained, but we had, like, Festival aaaaand, what was else? OK, eSpeak is dead more or less…
(Pawel) Mmm, now there is the eSpeak NG, no?
(Hlynur) [laughs]
(Mario) Yeah.
(Pawel) It’s still developed.
(Hlynur) Yeah, if Karl and Dóra, the Icelandic voices that are only 32-bit and will be shut down off the Play Store in August.
(Mario) Yeah
(Hlynur) What voice will… would have to replace them is actually an eSpeak voice called Snorri Or Sturla.
(Mario) Oh, OK. So…
(Hlynur) that that is the next test thing, uhh.
(Mario) [laughs]
OK!
(Pawel) I hope it gets the pronunciation right.
(Hlynur) Yeah.
(Pawel) I'm not fully satisfied with the Polish fully.
(Mario) But, I mean, we are talking about this no… not the human robotic thing.
(Hlynur) Yeah, He is p… he is called, I think, Snorri, I think it was first Sturla and then there was an update and then it was called Snorri that it's kind of before my time.
(Mario) Aha…
(Hlynur) But actually, one thing that we managed to do was we got some very good coverage within the Icelandic press about these this very serious situation that we are facing of people who rely on those and… Icelandic voices are about to lose them.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Hlynur) And there was no immediate plan in place. They were just saying, “yeah, we will have new Android Icelandic voices in 2022, which is… could be more than a year with with only an eSpeak voice, uhm…
(Mario) mmhm…
(Hlynur) to use with the Android, but they have made some changes to their plans after that, didn't take that long, and they are hoping to release a new Icelandic Android voice from this project, maybe this spring or this summer, so before August probably, And we're crossing our fingers and all our other limbs that that might happen.
(mario) Well, that's that's great, man. Uhh…
(Pawel) Yeah…
(Mario) You are, You are even more successful than we are in our countries[laughter] in terms of getting the press to talk about it, because usually if you bring up uhhh… such things in the press, in the other countries, it maybe goes on one or two portals, it becomes kind of news of the day and after that, it's gone, so, yeah, congratulations to that.
(Hlynur) OK, Ok, thank you. Yeah, the media has has been very, very kind, kind to us through the years. We have a had a good relationship with with the press, TV stations, radio stations and online and printed newspapers as well.
New braille displays from Humanware available on the market (Pawel) Well, I hope that Icelandic Braille is also doing alright and now we will have two new devices to read it on, because humanware is releasing a new line-up of their Brailliant displays. One is the BI 20 and the other is the BI 40, And what is so special about these Smart displays? Oh, I already said it: smart. They aren’t quite the standard braille displays that we know, that you just plug into your computer and off you go; and they aren’t also the new noteTakers with whole operating systems. It's something in between. It's a Braille display with some capabilities of its own. We already knew some displays with, uhmm, notetaking capabilities, with a calculator, some simple alarm clock; but now what they are doing is they're putting wifi on board of these displays so that you can connect to the Internet to, first of all, update your software, and secondly, to access the libraries for the blind to get some books onto the display directly and enjoy them in Braille. Now, we've seen this already with the Humanware… Uhh, no! with the APH Chameleon and Mantis, but we can say that they will not make it to Europe, probably, but with Humanware it’s a bit different story because Humanware has its dealership points or resellers in different countries and in the European ones as well. I even remember that at some point Apple had this gesture of selling assistive technology in their stores officially, and I remember that, uhh, the Brailliants were the displays that they had even in the Polish Apple store, you could get them straight from Apple; and this is big deal because they would like to cooperate with different libraries for the blind. There is an interview we will link to with the representatives of the company on Mosen At Large podcast of Jonathan Mosen, where they explain what the new displays are about and what's going to happen with them and they mentioned RNIB, so at least they try to cooperate with the British Library, but I guess if Humanware is more present in different countries of Europe, we will see these support, uhh, coming to these displays as well. And well, err, these are also probably the first or one of the first displays to support the new USB HID standard for Braille, where Apple and I think Microsoft, some other companies cooperated on, so that ideally you would plug in your display to your computer and you wouldn't need any special drivers and your Screen reader would read the display straight away and let you use it. Apparently it works on Apple products for now, on Macs and iOS devices. There are some issues with this still, but, uhmm, more or less it works and well, you don't need to tinker with any drivers, so that's great; and there are, of course, two of these displays, the more, the bigger one, the more expensive one, 40 characters one, is priced at 3195 dollars, [the sound of letting the air out] so we'll have to see in euros that would be something, something similar like that, but, uhh, well, hopefully, hopefully you will know the prices when when they come and the differences are that, first of all, the 40-character display is equipped with a Wi-Fi adaptor that supports both 2,4 GHZ and 5 GHz Wi-Fi. The smaller one is just2,4… 2.4; and the bigger one has the Bluetooth foive.0 standard and the older one, the smaller one, just 4.1 aaand…
(Mario) Uuuhhh, bigger one, no, no, the bigger one has Bluetooth 5.
(Pawel) Yeah, 5.0.
(Mario) Yeah, you said 4.
(Pawel) Did I? Oh,
(Mario and Pawel) [laughter]
(Pawel) Thank you. So, uhh, the bigger display has a Bluetooth fo… uhh, 5.0 and the smaller one 4.1. Also, the bigger display has more storage, I think 32 gB, but no card reader as far as I heard. And the smaller one, just 16, but for that a card reader. To both you can, of course, connect USB-equipped storage device like a pendrive or hard disk, and the bigger one has also a microphone, and this is a really interesting story because there is a speaker and a microphone and a Jack ca… a Jack port on both devices, uhmm, but well, the problem is that they don't work at the time because there are no features developed yet that would, uhh, make it use of these components. So we have to wait for the future. For now, Humanware doesn't want to say much about the plans - of course, they cannot as well – [the sound of taking breath in] but, uhh, the guess would be, or the most likely story would be that there will be some, uhh, Audio capabilities either in the direction of playing mp3 files or to access the Daisy… audio Daisy part of the libraries they would support, so we would see a combination of a Braille display and a fully fledged book reader and player eventually on the market. And this is really interesting because not everyone would like to have this, uhh, fully fledged, fancy dis… NoteTaker with, uhh, Android or Windows on to… onboard, yet to have a display with some more smart features Is not a bad idea either for people who just would like to make simple use of taking some notes and, uhh, using some pre-programmed applications, maybe read a book, uhh, so it would be interesting to see if this holds on as a trend and if other manufacturers will follow suit, but, uhh, well, we'll have to see, well, for the time being, we can just speculate, but, but, well, that's the Humanware, and their new displays.
(Mario) I have to say that I like the features of the Humanware, which they put in their devices, however, I'm not that big fan of their hardware. When I take the Humanware Braille display in my hands, I have a feeling that something will… might break at certain points, while on the other hand, if I would take, let's say, the Focus, I feel that Focus is much more robust, but that's me, really, this is this is my personal personal opinion about it, however, yeah, regarding the features and the support, they absolutely have the newest, let's say, the newest standards for Braille, uhh, in their devices and as you mentioned, support for the libraries, I think that this is the next thing which will come up in their firmware updates as the devices are equipped with the speakers, that they will have support for Daisy books - I think this is really what's coming because they are supporting multiple online libraries and this to me, this seems, uhh, as a logical step forward.
Handsome – France’s bank dedicated to disabled customers (Pawel) Yeah, uhmm, another step forward that is actually happening, is what is actually going on in France right now. I was already seeing this, uhmm, at the stage when they were just testing it, but now there is a webpage…
(Mario) Are they testing some French cheese or what?
(Pawel) No, but something equally exciting, I guess, uhmm, the first probably the first ever bank dedicated to disabled customers; and this is really cool what they're planning. I looked at the website, uhmm, and I see that, uhmm, this is really well thought of and it has some really unique features. So, of course, it's an app where you create an account, you get a card payment card for it, and of course, you can watch your transactions, you can set the limits on your card, you can lock your card when it's stolen or lost, you can change the pin on the card, manage everything like you would. Of course, the app is accessible. It's, uhh, checked and proven for compatibility with the guidelines by organisations for the blind in France and, errr, everything about it is accessible and it should be available for both iOS and Android. The service is called handsome and the first thing that really drew my attention was the fact that their card that you get for payments is connected with the terminal and with your app. This means whenever you pay somewhere at a store and you put the card in the terminal, you will receive all the messages that the terminal is showing visually in the app, so all the errors, all the PIN requests, every single stage of the transaction, you can control it. You can see what's going on on the terminal, and I think this is the first that we see something like this working and well, given that the newer terminals are touchscreen-equipped and quite hard to use for blind people, at least now, uhh, this is really a nice improvement and I really hope we will see it with some more institutions. The second f…
(Hlynur) Do you know if it’s only… Do you know if it's only tied with with France or if it's…
(Pawel) I think for now Yes, because the website is only in French, but from what I read in the article where it was announced, they applied for some international patent for this, so I would hope that they would not lock it up for just for French people and they will just let people use this outside of France as well, which is not that difficult to do in the EU. You can pretty much operate a bank for any European citizen with relatively little problems, and there are many fintechs based in Lithuania, for example, like revolut or N26 in Germany, and you can just have a card with them even if you're from a different country, so I hope they would open up, and also I think it's somehow connected or supported by or developed by Credit Agricole and I think they are available pretty much in in other countries; so here's to hoping, uhmm, that they will expand.
(Tanja) I think it's interesting, but at the same time, we will have the European Accessibility Act that will require that E-Banking will be accessible. Well, it is not yet the case, I guess for most, uhh, E-Banking, but it will come at a certain point. So at the same time, I think that for some of us your job requires to have the account open in a certain bank and then, you know, you don't have even the choice. You can have another account in another bank, but anyway, you have to use the one that your job asks you, uhmmmm, so I see that, I mean, it's nice, it's interesting because, uhmm, the other banks maybe can see what are the good practices, what they can do, but at the same time is limiting, because if there is one that is considered to be accessible, what about the others? Wi… Will the others take the responsibility to also have accessible interface? Well, anyway, they should because of the legal obligation that will come at a certain point, but, I see the limitations, and at the same time, I did not test mobile application, which I believe that it is accessible because, it is declared it is accessible, but the website, that you sent us was not.
(Pawel) There were some unlabelled graphics, no? For example.
(Tanja) Background.png, heading 1 was on “Support Us”.
So I was a bit disappointed to see, like, “Yes, fully 100% accessible”, and then you're reading from a website that it is not, so can you trust them?
(Pawel) Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. Maybe they just focused on the app for some crazy reason, but, uhh, [inhaling of air], yeah, here's to hoping they they fix it.
(Tanja) Mmhmm.
(Mario) Yeah, considering the fact that we are talking about French, uhh, usually French services are very strong in terms of, uhh, being persistent and having accessible services, so…
(Tanja) Probably They will improve it.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's OK, but I'm just saying that it's kind of, uhh, strange to see that this is not being thought of
(Tanja) Mmhm.
(Mario) from the beginning. So… But I agree with you, Tanja, as well. I think that the overall goal should be that we have a universally accessible design applied towards all the banking because that that that should be the end goal. Uhmm, I like the feature, which you said, Pawel, that this, uhh, interface has this, uhh, opportunity of, uhh, sending the messages of between these machines for transactions and between your phone so you can see what what's going on on your phone in the same time what's going on on their display, that that's a cool thing, but, uhh, yeah, other than that, I think that this is a little bit of part of, uhh, yeah, putting us in the ghetto. You know, sometimes we have a situation that some some things which we see as as the things which are being developed are planned long, long time ago, and it might be that this kind of service was planned like at the beginning of 2000’s, I wouldn't be surprised. Twenty years ago or fifteen years ago, the situation with the level of technology which we used was much different than it is today, so, you know, today, really, what I want to see is more and more E-Banking solutions accessible on the worldwide , for example, myself, I have a situation at job where I'm supposed to use just a specific bank from Luxembourg because I work for the Luxembourgish Institution, and they said, well, if you're working for us, you have to use specific bank, otherwise it doesn't work so…
(Hlynur) Otherwise, you’d be a volunteer???
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, [laughter] and, uhh, you know, in order to, for example, access the the this Luxembourgish, uhh, bank, I'm using a think, which is eventually used in multiple countries. It's called the Luxtrust token… They call it Talking Token for the moment, and It's the device which connects with the older with with that service where you are able to authorise the stuff and and and login into the E-Banking interface, but it's used all over the other, uhh, public sector institutions which need authorisations. But, for example, as we are talking in the, like for the E-Banking, in the same time, the same company developed a mobile application which is used for last year, it's called Luxtrust Mobile, and on the iPhone and Android, it has different levels of accessibility, on An… on iPhone, it's a bit better, but on Android it's pretty much terrible, so right now we are pressing them to see what will happen in the future if they will improve that, so, yeah, E-Banking in in in Europe. Eeh, it needs to go forward
(Hlynur) not just the E-B… not just E-Banking, I'm I'm quite worried about like all those new payment terminals with touchscreen where nothing has been thought of, uhh, for blind and visually impaired users.
(Mario) Oh absolutely. Yes, Yeah.
(Tanja) Yeah.
(Hlynur) It is a big concern here. I've already gotten in touch myself with some people at Softpay who are running these Pax terminals in like over 27 countries, and I was very surprised that an organisation of that magnitude, they didn't seem to have a clue what I was talking about.
(Mario) Absolutely, absolutely, yes.
(Pawel) Weren’t, weren’t they the ones who actually were working on some accessible terminals? I think we were…
(Hlynur) The Pax…
(Pawel) Yeah?
(Hlynur) The Pax do have a solution, but like this Softpay company, they are using their own interface, and in that interface, they didn't think about accessibility, but, like, being told that, I mean that if if this was in the USA, this would be illegal. Simple as that. And…
(Mario) Abso… Yeah, yeah.
(Hlynur) And soon, don't know exactly maybe when, but it will be in Europe as well and it will be in Iceland as well. We know that all regulations and laws are going in that direction, but the US had the advantage that those laws are in place and have been for, what, over 20 years.
(Pawel) Yyess…
(Mario) That's why your friend from Iceland is very busy over there.
[laughter]
(Hlynur) Yeah
Accessibility of the COVID-19 vaccination application (Pawel) Speaking of services that should be accessible, and are they really? We heard close to Christmas, of the Corona, the covid vaccine being slowly rolled out in different countries across the world. And of course, many countries have already started the process for people to apply to get their spot to reserve their vaccine whenever it's available for their group. And yeah, that's the question, is this accessible in your experiences? Did you have trouble finding out? Could you?
(Tanja) Exactly yeah, I had issues. Actually here in Luxembourg you cannot even register because you receive a letter, a paper later at home with the code and then you can register online. And there is no alternative way you can just receive the letter. And what they offer as alternative, but not to the letter, but to the online registration. They offer as the alternative the telephone registration, but still you need to read the code. So unfortunately, it is fully, fully inaccessible.
I was checking in Croatia and I could see that you can register online or by telephone or you can call your doctor, and well, the website was partially accessible, so it's really disappointing, you know, checking here and there that everywhere you see the same accessibility issues. And then there was an article on WebAim, the non-profit organisation that works on accessibility, so they evaluated, I think, 96 websites in the states that are for registering for the Covid vaccine or general information about the Covid vaccine. And almost all of them had accessibility issues like missing alternative text. No labels on form fields or things like that, and it's, I mean, it's really incredible today that all of these websites are actually new and that in this public health crisis, we still see that this is not an exception, that unfortunately, most of the websites are still inaccessible. So what I did since we have the Web Accessibility Directive, I contacted the accessibility officer here in Luxembourg and I reported the issue. I really propose that everyone that has the same issue does the same in their country. So to make a report and to make a complaint. Actually, I found a few days ago that a website called Big Hack, it's from U.K. they made a template for making an accessibility complaint on certain websites of the public sector body. So, you know, you can follow the template if you're not sure what to write. So to describe the issue, what assistive technologies are you using, the version eventually the browser and device, so to make it easier for you to report the issues and then… because otherwise, if we don't report for them, it just does not exist, unfortunately. So this is individually, I think, what you can do, but also organisations, I think, are responsible to inform the institutions about the problem. What is your experience?
(Pawel) For Poland, I can say that there is a procedure for now, as far as I understood, to make your interest known to the state that you would like to get the vaccine. So it's not even sign up for a spot is just for now somehow letting the country know I would be interested. I don't know why they do it like this, but just like it is and it somehow involves text messages, you send some kind of SMS and then you confirm something. So it's digitalised. It's not on paper. And I think there are no bigger problems with it, maybe it's not fully compliant, but it's probably accessible as it should be. I don't know for Austria because I don't have their Social Security number, so I can't apply and I don't even know if I'll be here by the time the vaccines will be available to me. But what I tested, and this is a similar kind of service or similar experience, is the application for the testing, because in Austria you can apply for you can go for test, for a Covid test free of charge as many times as you want. So like I have friends who go testing every 10 days, for example, or before they would like to meet together as a small group, things like that. And this is really cool how it works in general. You go on a website, you fill in your data, you show where you would like to take the test and when and at what time. And you have a nice overview of the data you've entered, which is a good accessibility practice at the end of forms to show what you've typed so you can confirm or deny. OK, this is what I wanted to type. And then you get a code by sms, which you have to put in the box there to confirm that it's really you and you're not impersonating anybody. And then you get the link and the code by sms which you have to show at the place where you're taking the test, they check if it's really there in the base, if you're in there on the list, they will let you in to have a test. And afterwards, you can choose to get the test results, either on paper or by, again, text message and email. And then you get information that it’s positive or negative and the link to access a QR code with some more information and the entire outline in PDF probably as well, if you will, if somebody needs a printed proof or anything like that. So this is really cool. The website is not, I wouldn't say it's fully accessible, it wouldn't pass all the criteria, all the success criteria of WCAG , but it's usable provided you are using in my case, it was NVDA and Chrome. With Firefox, it crashed. It actually froze my entire system. And I tried it a couple of times and it was reproducible every time. On Android with Chrome it would show me just like half of the link to send the data somehow. And when I clicked it just took me back to the previous screen.
So I found the combination of NVDA and Chrome to work best. And while the fields are, let’s say, labelled, but some things could be, for example, radio buttons or check boxes, and they are just clickable elements, which shouldn't be the case because you're not really sure then if you've really checked something or not. But once you learn to deal with this, you can go through the procedure on your own. I did it twice already and it worked just fine. Small fun fact. I don't know who programmed the website, but for some reason it would not accept… So they let you pick a country if you have a different number than Austrian. But they didn't adapt the edit field to accept other formats of numbers like in Austria you have ten digits for number and in Poland you have nine, so that's already wrong and it will not take the number even though they offer different countries. But once you go for this, everything else is really smooth. You arrive at the place. I did it once on my own. Fortunately, the test site is just two stops away by bus from where I live and it's very close by the bus stop and I just asked for help. But once I was there, there was already somebody who assisted me, took me through all the steps, checked my data, took me to the place where the test was taken. They took the test. They saw me off to the bus stop again. So I felt that is really thought of and it's really accessible.
And I was happy and I will probably come again when I need to have a test.
(Mario) Over here in Luxembourg had many different issues where even people could not go with our Adapto service to have the testing for a while. I have heard that they just started to do that again. But I heard that they will have now kind of guidance assistance if the people come for the vaccination.
But as Tanja said, the whole procedure for the vaccination over here is really not thought of the best. I mean, and this is, again, just my opinion. But I think that most of the people will agree with my opinion. I think the overall blind people are, by default, much more vulnerable than what the general population thinks and what the National Ministries of Health think of. Because when you are blind, you have to touch everything around you. If you are living alone and you don't have that much assistance you are doing with your hands all the time something which means that you are much more exposed to the virus and you can get…
(Pawel) Definitely
(Mario) you can get much more well in contact with the virus even if you don't want to.
And therefore I think that we should be much more included in that and that all the things should be much better thought of and that all the institutions in the local countries representing the blind people should be much more involved where they would explain to the National Ministries of Health what are our needs and how we should be treated.
Because right now the situation does not look good for blind people.
(Pawel) What about Iceland? How is it in Iceland?
(Hlynur) Like everything, it's quite casual, hehe. They say, like I probably will not have my vaccination until maybe June if everything goes as planned. They do say, however, that people are... They have like this pre-decided calendar, they have, like, prioritised how people will be vaccinated first, they will start with the… or they have already. They started with health care workers in the hospitals. And then they go to like other health care employees, fire departments, police. They have started or finished with 90 plus. Then they will go to 80 to 89 years old, then 70 to 79,60 to 69. And they have this calendar that they just change. If like let's say they get more or less of of any vaccine that might have an impact on the schedule, I am myself in the latest group. Others. Which will probably mean that I will have my vaccination in May or June. They let you know when you are supposed to when and where you're supposed to get vaccinated. You don't order it. You don't have anything to say where or when it will be done. But it is done in different places around the country. So it doesn't mean that someone has to take a bus for eight hours just to get vaccinated and then go back. Everything has been quite online and in mobile, there hasn't been like a lot of paper issues like you mentioned, Tanja. The only paper case that I know of was the information brochure for people who were entering Iceland about like how long they should quarantine themselves and what would be the next step and step and blah, blah, blah. And that was only the paper, no website, even though this wasn't any, like, sensitive information, but it was still just paper. But now they let you know with the text message or an online message on their web where you can, everybody has a possibility to log in on their own domain or as I say, or with other measures.
What those other measures are, I'm not quite sure.
(Pawel) Oh, I see. Well, here's to hoping that the vaccines will roll out fast enough that you will be able to enjoy normality again at some point and the virus will be contained.
(Hlynur) Uh, I'm hoping for that for you guys as well, actually. They believe that Iceland is now, for most parts, virus free, but we are getting quite a lot at the border, but it has since spread out that I think there were, what, 10 cases like within Iceland in the whole of February, something like that.
(Tanja) Wow.
(Pawel) I mean, the country is smaller, but there's definitely a good result. Really good. Hoping for even less.
(Hlynur) Yeah, because there have been over 100 cases just on the border, but now they are. Now you have to like provide a negative test results, which has to be younger than fifty eight hours. OK, and you still have to get tested at the border, then you have to quarantine for five days, then you get a second test. And if that is negative also then you're free.
(Pawel) Yeah anything to hold the virus at bay is good.
(Hlynur) Yeah, because of course we can we don't have any direct borders with anyone else.
It's the only way to come here is by ship or by plane or by swimming. But I would not recommend it.
(Pawel) Yeah, hehe.
Farewell (Pawel) OK. And that would be everything from us in this episode. We hope you enjoyed it and we hope you will stay tuned for the 30th, our round episode coming up again the next time around.
If you have any remarks, questions about what we have discussed in this episode or maybe some suggestions of something to share from of your own and you can always reach us at. Twitter @EbuAccessCast or via our email ebuaccesscast@euroblind.org. Thank you guys for being here with me.
(Hlynur) Thank you very much Pawel.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Pawel) Then we'll hear from each other the next time. Bye.
(Hlynur) With some gadgets.
(Tanja) Bye bye.
(Pawel) Hopefully, hahaha.
(Mario) Bye bye.
(Pawel) Bye.
(Hlynur) Bye bye.
(Jingle)
Thank you for listening the EBU Access Cast.
If you want to contact us you can send us an e-mail to ebuaccesscast@euroblind.org or find us on Twitter @EbuAccessCast.
Welcome back to EBU Access Cast - podcast about assistive technology for blind and partially sighted people. This is episode 28 transcript. We wish you all the best for a happy and healthy 2021!
In this post-Christmas episode, we review some of the new personal gadgets.
Tanja presents us her new Microphone Yeti Nano from Blue which is an USB condenser microphone - perfect for recording podcasts and for live streaming.
Mario talks about his new open-ear wireless bone conduction headset Aftershokz aeropex.
For all musicians among our listeners that are tired of using cables on instruments, Mario tested out a digital wireless system for guitars and basses Boss wl-20.
Pawel was surely the most creative in the team and recommended us a music pillow that can be plugged in any sound equipment via a 3.5 mm Jack cable and listen while falling asleep. The model that he got is from Kanguru.
Pawel recommended us also a winter cap with built in BT headset from GeekerChip.
We were happy to announce that the bug in Zoom was fixed. _We mentioned the bug in episode 27. Screen reader users should not experience issues anymore while using the virtual background on Zoom. A big shout-out to Zoom that fixed this bug so quickly.
In the accessibility news section, we covered the 2021 edition of CES. This year was the first time CES was entirely virtual rather than in its usual location of Las Vegas. Tech brands were still able to show off the best new technology that will be soon available on the market. Our pick of devices that were introduced at CES 2021:
- Turn-by-turn descriptive navigation Aware app by Sensible Innovations.
- Mudra Band for the Apple Watch that remaps small finger movements into standard Apple Watch gestures for persons with physical or cognitive disabilities.
Inclusive design is the concept that drives many big brands like Microsoft or Google. We share the interview from Engadget with Microsoft’s chief accessibility officer Jenny Lay-Flurrie and Google’s product manager for Android Accessibility Brian Kemler.
Microsoft Seeing AI app is a clear example how AI can be used to make visual information accessible to visually impaired persons. In the version 4.0, the new World channel was introduced that explores the space around you and represents them in 3d sound. You can check more information on the latest updates in the Seeing AI changelog.
Microsoft Azure Text to Speech service offers neural voices that sound natural like humans. It can speak in 54 languages and you can test it out on the Microsoft Azure page. Developers can make use of this service to build apps and services that speak naturally. Neural voices are not yet available for screen readers, but we hope that Microsoft will make them available as TTS voices in one of the future Windows updates.
After the strong earthquake in Croatia, we investigated the accessibility of earthquake apps.
We found the most accessible and customisable My earthquake alerts. As mobile app for iOS and Android. It notifies the user about the latest earthquakes from all over the world via push notifications. It uses information from earthquake agencies such as EMSC.
We were disappointed to discover that Last Quake, the official app from EMSC, does not have a fully accessible mobile app for iOS and Android.
Screen reader users that use Facebook know that images that do not have alternative text are automatically described. We talk about the latest Facebook improvement on the automatic alternative text.
Mario and Pawel speak about the new TalkBack in Android 11 and the collaboration between Google and Samsung.
We mentioned the European Android 11 schedule update for Samsung.
The Icelandic Association of the Visually Impaired (BIAVI) used the accessibility posters and turned them into mouse pads that they give to programmers, designers and staff working in the IT industry to remind them on basic accessibility recommendations.
Get in contact with us, share your comments or suggestions via email ebuaccesscast@euroblind.org or via Twitter @ebuaccesscast.
Transcript of EBU Access Cast - episode 28 (jingle)
This programme is financially supported by the fundings from the European Commission.
You are listening to the EBU Access Cast. The official podcast from European Blind Union about assistive technology for blind and partially sighted people.
And here is our host.
Introduction (Tanja) Welcome to EBU Access Cast, the official technology podcast from the European Blind Union. This is Episode 28. We wish you Happy New Year from all of EBU Access Cast team.
(Mario, singing) Happy New Year!
(Pawel) Welcome.
(Pawel, Hlinur) Happy New Year.
(Tanja, laughing) My name is Tanja Kleut.
(Mario) Hahahaha.
(Tanja) You cannot make such a show Mario.
(Mario) Yes I can, it’s for the beginning of January.
(Tanja) Yes. My name is Tanja Kleut and... I cannot concentrate like this, hahaha.
(Pawel, laughing) Mario would you like to take over?
(Mario) OK, My name is Tanja Kleut, hahahaha.
(Tanja) No, no. OK, I'm starting. I'm starting again.
So my name is Tanja Kleut and we have with us Mario Perčinić from Luxembourg.
(Mario) Hello.
(Tanja) Hi. Pawel Masarczyk from Austria.
(Pawel) Hello.
(Tanja) Hi. And, Hlinur Þór Agnarsson from Iceland. I hope I pronounced your name well.
(Hlinur) Well, this was quite good, actually.
(Tanja) OK.
(Hlinur) Who knows. And hello to everyone.
(Tanja) Hi. So what's up, guys?
Did you started well the New Year?
(Mario) Yeah, pretty much.
(Hlinur) Looking good.
(Pawel) Like a lot of technological shopping and post-Christmas shopping, haha.
(Tanja) Yes.
(Mario) Yes pre and post-Christmas shopping (????)
New gadgets: Tanja's Blue Yeti Nano microphone (Tanja) Yeah, yeah, for me the same. I have a new microphone, if you can hear the difference from the last time. I have a new Yeti nano microphone from Blue. It is a USB condenser microphone that they advertise that it is perfect for recording and streaming, which is my case. So, I don't know, about some specifications. It has dual capsule's and it supports 24 bit and it has a frequency of up to forty eight kilohertz. So if that means something to our audience. What is convenient also is that it has a compact design with the metal stand. So it's stable and robust, I would say, and it doesn't require any driver. It's a plug and play microphone. And there is also an inaccessible software that you can install from Blue called Blue Sherpa, which is quite funny for me because in Croatian in some of the dialects sherpa means a “pot”.
(Mario) Hahahaha.
(Tanja) But OK, I mean, it's not accessible anyway, so I think I will uninstall it. Normally you can adjust the volume gain and some other controls I think, but you can do it also without that software.
So there are only two buttons on the microphone. One is in front and it is a volume control for headphones for monitoring the sound and if you hold that button it mutes the sound. so you can mute the microphone. While on the backside on the microphone there is the button to change the two modes, the cardioid mode that is for podcasting or streaming. It records the voice that is in front of the microphone and there is the other mode, omnidirectional. That is more for recording the sounds around the room. If there are more people in the room that you would like to record. And yeah, so it has two modes. And I think if you hold it, you can also turn on and off the microphone. So, yeah, that's about it. I think the sound should be more clear than from the other Mike that I have from Blue that I used a long time ago for podcasting.
(Mario) Yeah, it sounds much better than the Snowball.
(Tanja) Yeah, probably the sound is much more clear and there is also a pop filter that you can purchase with it. So to prevent these pop sounds of some letters like P and T and so on. Yeah. So I'm happy with my purchase. I hope that you hear me well.
(Hlinur) I do have one question, though.
(Tanja) Yeah.
(Hlinur) What colour is it?
(Mario) Hehehe.
(Tanja) I don't know.
(Hlinur) Because they have it in... I mean, it looks awesome. And they have it in silver, blue, red and gold. And if I were to buy one, I think I would need to buy all four of them.
(Mario) Hahaha, why?
(Hlinur) They all look so beautiful.
(Tanja) It's a good question. I will have to verify with someone after like calling Be My Eyes or so, but I don't know.
(Hlinur) This is something I will need to have a written report about.
(Tanja) Yeah, yeah, hehe.
(Mario) Yeah, I mean you sound really good.
(Tanja) Yeah, that’s great.
(Mario) I mean for the budget of about...
(Hlinur) A hundred dollars.
(Mario) Yeah, it’s about 100 something euros on Amazon if you purhcase it on Amazon and yeah for that money it sounds good. And it's kind of the cheapest mike from the Yeti that it's currently possible to get.
(Tanja) Is it?
(Mario) OK, besides the Snowball.
(Tanja) Snowball was cheaper.
(Mario) Snowball is cheaper, but I'm talking about like, let's say their higher range of mikes. Because this from the specs that you have on your Yeti Nano, this is kind of stripped down version of the old Yeti professional, which I have, and that one has for capsule's and it's able to record in stereo as well. The bad side of that is that I need to keep my drivers somewhere because I need to install it for the mike otherwise it's not working.
(Tanja) Yes. But, what is also interesting with this microphone is that is a side-address, meaning that you should speak in front and not on the top of the microphone. And initially I was speaking on the top of the microphone and I could not hear my voice so loudly. And I thought, OK, where is the problem? But then I discovered in the manual that I should speak in the front. And what about yours?
(Mario) Mine is old school, I have to speak in front of the mike.
(Tanja) You mean on the top.
(Mario) Yeah, on the top. The top has to face me in order to get myself loud and clear. Even though I have, like on mine, I have the two separate buttons. So I have the button for the gain adjustments and I have the button for changing modes, which is like a click thing. You turn it and then you change the modes and you're is more modern, you just press and it changes the modes. If I'm not mistaken, your is smaller than mine and even lighter because mine, including the stand is... You know, you need to have the licence for weapons to use it, because it's really, I don't know, like almost two kilos in weight.
(Tanja) Yeah, well.
(Mario) On one side it's OK because it's very stable on the desk. That's a good thing, but yeah, it's not for...
(Tanja) If you want to carry it around, you will have another one.
(Mario) So, yeah, Good purchase for the mike.
(Tanja) Yeah. And what about you?
(Mario) Me? I got two different things actually.
(Tanja) Because you announced in the last podcast that you will buy headphones.
New gadgets: Mario's AfterShokz Aeropex bone conduction headset (Mario) Yeah, I did buy Aftershokz aeropex, Bluetooth headset. And I am really happy with it. This is my second aftershocks that I have. Previously I used to have, I mean, I still have, but I don't use them anymore, I was using the Trekz titanium for a few years. But, these Aftershockz Aeropex is really good bone conduction headset. It's very much improved on multiple fronts, let's say. First of all Physically, when you put the headset on your head, it sits differently than the Trekz Titanium like this band that's behind your neck is not straight forward, it's kind of more angled. So it's going more upwards to your head which means that basically you can even lie down and listen to the content, if you want, with the headset, which you could not do it with Trekz Titanium. The second thing is that they're even lighter than the Titanium for about 10 grams. So it's like only 26 grams in weight. And they are really... Like, once you put them on your head, you don't feel that you have something on your head, whichI could feel that I'm having something on my head, especially after, like 30 minutes, one hour of use when I used to use the first ones. With the Aeropex it’s no chance. I even used it on the conferences that are now very popular and on the online meetings and it works great, like I could have it for an hour or two on my head and no problems about it.
The second thing about the headset is that they improved a lot something which was really critical for me, and these are the codecs for the Bluetooth in terms of getting the sound and transmitting the sound, so they updated the codecs because now they are using Bluetooth 5.0 and that means that now if you're on any kind of conferencing, meaning like Zoom or Teams or whatever it's going to sound almost the same as if you would listen through your, let's say, normal headset or normal speakers etc Before, on the old Trekz Titanium, whenever I would go on any kind of voice chat clients, it would sound terrible. People would hear me relatively bad and I would hear the people as I'm listening, like very low fi telephone call. It was like, ah, really bad. With this one it really sounds good and people are saying that they're hearing me very well on the conference. The mikes are also noise cancelling so which is good. So you can basically also, let’s say, to be outside and talk or be in, maybe, a little bit more noisy environment, but the mikes should stand and kind of filter that, so that's good. And the biggest improvements also is that they changed the charging port. So before you had a normal USB like a micro USB cable and you would need to unplug... There was on the right side of the headset...You still have on the old ones the cap that you need to raise and then insert your USB cable. And yeah, that would work eventually, but this newer ones are magnetic. They have the magnetic charger, which is also USB, but this one is specialised for the headset so just put it on the place and as it's magnetic, it sticks to the charging port. You just plug it into your whatever USB thing and it goes in charge. The battery lasts for eight hours or even more. I am still on my first charge and I used it a lot, so I will have to recharge soon, but they are still rocking with the first charge. I think I even got for more than 10 hours which is great.
(Tanja) That's great, but do you have the impression that after using them longer, the place where is positioned, the part that transmits the audio above your ear, that it becomes warm? Because this was my problem with the old model. After like ten minutes it becomes warm and it's really not pleasant.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah. That's true. It used to happen on the older headsets. On the Aeropex that’s not the case.
(Pawel) It's good to hear they have been improved because I still have the Bluez 2, which is I think the second model they ever released.
(Mario) Oh man, haha.
(Pawel) I know. Right, 2016. Here we go. Um, anyway, I also had the first model as well, and sadly I found a couple of issues with it. So, for instance, it was difficult to have phone conversations like my other party wouldn't hear me that well.
(Mario) Yeah. Yeah.
(Pawel) And also I wouldn't dare to listen to music with it in like public places or on public transport because either it was too quiet for me or it was too loud for everybody else around. I don't know if this is still the case.
(Mario) It is very much improved.
(Pawel) Ok, because I thought just like the side effect of it being bone conduction, that is not made for like listening to music. It's more like speech.
But if it's fixed, then it's good.
(Tanja) I had the same issue with my model that is the model before the latest one. when I was walking outdoor, I could hear the traffic much louder And sometimes even I could not understand what my phone is talking in my headset. Yeah. so, you say Mario it's improved.
(Mario) It is improved and there is one trick about the whole Aftershockz, which I found, and that's the thing that you need to change the equalisation on the headset. So in order to do that, you need to press this up and down volume buttons and then it will tell you in the same time you need to press on hold for like two or three seconds and then it will tell you the equalisation changed. And when the equalisation changes, you get immediate boost in the mid and bass frequencies. And in the same time, you get much more pleasant experience because then you can hear better. And it's running as it is supposed to.
(Pawel) That's good.
(Mario) So that's the thing.
(Tanja) That's great.
(Mario) There also with this new ones, which is cool, they give you actually 2 charging cables, which was not the case before. So you can have one at home and one at work, let's say like that or the second one for spare.
(Hlinur) God, that's a nice gesture.
(Mario) Yeah! That's a good thing. The bad thing was their packing. I really didn't like how they started packing the stuff. They used too much thing inside and they're like too much papers to waste and like whah…
(Tanja) Maybe to be sure that, you know, the product arrives well.
(Mario) Well, yeah, but I remember how the Trekz Titanium were packed so. Yeah. And I had to for example, purchase my extra case which I'm carrying around for them. So it's like a hard case. I had to purchase it extra because you don't get it with them by default. But it's OK. I mean if you want to use them on a daily basis, which I eventually do, it's kind of good to have their hard case with you because this soft thing, which comes it's kind of, yeah… I wouldn't carry it around. It's not safe.
(Pawel) Does it connect to multiple sources, too, like two devices at once? Some headsets can do that.
(Mario) Actually, it's kind of unknown and you should experiment with it because the older ones, they used to do that, the Trekz Titanium, they were suppose they could have multiple pairing. So I don't see the reason why the new ones should not have that, but it's not listed in their manual. So maybe it has a hidden feature.
(Pawel) An Easter egg for Christmas.
(Mario) I would have to check whether the old method works on the new ones as well, that I can tell you. But you also have the side button, which can be used for even calling up the assistance and for skipping the tracks for multimedia, hanging up calls and etc.. So that’s good.
(Tanja) That's great.
(Mario) Yes.
(Tanja) Good purchase.
(Mario) That was a good purchase, especially because I'm using that relatively frequently, and as we said in the previous podcasts, we are now in the time an age where we are all the time on some conferences or meetings or whatever, even right now, the whole everyday work for, you know, our job positions, what are we doing is also partially or fully based online. So, yeah, it's good to have such gadget around.
(Tanja) Well, I guess that it is convenient when you have to hear the surrounding.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) But then when you want to isolate yourself from the surroundings, maybe it's better to have standard headphones.
(Mario) Actually, there is a workaround for that because what they give you is a set of ear plugs here. And so they're saying if you need to isolate yourself, you need to put the set of earplugs. And then when you put set of earplugs, you don't hear anything. But still you can hear the sound from the headset because they are bone conduction and actually it does work.
(Tanja) Yeah.
New gadgets: Mario's Boss WL-20 wireless system for musical instruments (Mario) So that was the first gadget that I got, the second one arrived this week, actually, I got it as a Christmas present. Yeeee.
(Tanja) Santa came late.
(Mario) Yeah. Well, you know, Santa had to travel around…
(Tanja) Yeah. It's not easy.
(Hlinur) It's a busy day for him.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah. He had corona as well, so, you know… hahahaha.
(Tanja) Nooo, poor Santa.
(Mario) But he recovered, actually, so it's OK.
(Tanja) OK.
(Mario) Um, yeah, the second thing Is Boss wl-20 Wireless gadget, it's wireless for guitars and basses. As I'm multi instrumentalist as well, musician, so I'm playing yeah, 356 different instruments, string instruments, included, I'm struggling with, yeah, many cables in the house and on stages and blah blah blah. So I started looking into those different wireless units for the guitars a few years ago. And they started appearing on the market for the last four or five years ago, but they were not so good at the beginning, especially the digital ones which started appearing on the market. They were having first issues with the latency and you had to adjust manually, the channels, et cetera, et cetera. And some of them were too much, giving too much highs, if you would play over that comparing to the cable. So, yeah, I didn't like them so much, but eventually in the meantime, technology improves. So Boss which is very known pedal and effects maker for the last 40 years, they release-ed different wireless for guitars or you can even use four keys if you want. And the 20 is kind of the cheapest in range because it's very portable. You have two devices, I mean, two components. You have a small receiver and a small transmitter. The battery, when it's full blast for 10 to 12 hours, which is great compared to most of the other units, which lasts up to five hours, they last shorter in practical terms. And the cool thing about it is that it's having only 2.3 milliseconds for the latency, which is next to nothing, I mean, human ear cannot hear that. Like when you are playing, you hear instantly what you have played. There is no latency at all. And one, it has a range of up to 20 metres as long as you are in the same room or on the same stage, which is great. What you need to do every time when you're connecting is you need to match, you need to connect to the transmitter and the receiver, leave them connected for about 15 seconds because they will search all the Wi-Fi band around you and they will find the free frequency automatically, and then they will connect one to each other, so then you just unplug. You plug one into the guitar, the other in the amp or pedal whatever you have. And there you go, you are up and running, you don't need to adjust any manual settings for the channels. And what's really cool is that there is no… As they are operating on the same frequency band as the Wi-Fi routers, cell phones, etc. It's working on 2.4 gigahertz. There is no interference. Like, I'm living in a quite small apartment where I have many different Wi-Fi devices running all the time, including my Wi-Fi router, cell phones and all kinds of different junk, and there is no interference, I'm having a very nice signal, everything works, nothing loses the signal, going offline from the Internet, so far, so good, and it's, uh, yeah, the thing has also built in cable simulator, so it's simulating like the cable of three metres and it really works great. It has warm kind of sound that you're having, like when you're connected through the cable, it's not that harsh. Yeah, I really like it.
(Hlinur) Do you need to keep it close together when they are connecting or can they be like 10, 15 metres apart? From the beginning?
(Mario) So when you are connecting them, you need to plug the transmitter into receiver. They plug into each other.
(Hlinur) to each other, OK.
(Mario) Yeah. So they stay plugged in for like 15 seconds. Then you unplug them and then you plug them wherever you want to plug them and you go.
(Hlinur) It sounds very neat.
(Mario) Yeah, it is, and they have also a version, it's called Boss 2l-20 l, which stands for kind of low latency, the only difference is that this l version doesn't have a cable simulator, which is kind of good for whatever acoustic guitars if you really want to do that, or for keys or whatever. But I mean, for me, it, uh, it works even with this cable simulator, because I, I'm running all the guitars and basses anyway through the cables and kind of used to that, that kind of a little bit filtered but yeah. So far so good. It's great. I really like it.
(Tanja) And I guess probably on the stage it is much, much more convenient.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, it's much more convenient. For example, sometimes I am playing with my pedalboard. In the pedalboard… When you're running through the board, you need to have at least two cables around you and et cetera. Even if you're reducing one cable, that's great. So that's much better.
(Tanja) Ok, sounds great, and that is accessible, too.
(Mario) Yeah, it is, and this is really accessible for blind people, as I said, because you don't need to adjust any channels.
(Tanja) There is no display.
(Mario) No, there is no display. And the charging is really convenient like you can charge it on any kind of phone chargers. You get the micro USB cable, you just connected into a receiver. And again, in order to charge both units, you just plug them together and you put the cable into the charger and off you go. Everything is charging. The full charge then takes about four hours and then you're up and running again.
(Tanja) Ok, that's great.
New gadgets: Pawel's music pillow (Mario) Yeah. Pawel, Did you fall asleep?
(Pawel) No, I did not. I was just intensively listening.
(Tanja) We thought you are using your new gadget.
(Pawel) Yes, I was intensively listening. I did not fall asleep, although I bought something I can definitely fall asleep on. Hahaha. In fact, I got two things. But the first one is something you can fall asleep on and it's intended for you to do that. (“Twinkle, Twinkle” song in the background with snoring sound) It's a music pillow, which… and I learnt this because the other thing is a similar sort of music gadget. It basically is what it says on the box. There is no magic behind it, but it doesn't mean it's bad. It's just that sometimes when you see these kind of descriptions, you tend to think it's something more awesome than what it says. It's basically a pillow in which there stays a headphone like a single speaker that is used for the headphones. So that when you fall asleep, you can put something on. It's intended for relaxation music, but I already tried it with like YouTube videos and speech and people talking and what not. And it is supposed to make you be able to listen to all of that without wearing anything on your head, any headphones that you might find uncomfortable or may tangle yourself in the cables while turning around. And it's actually good, it, uh , it has a jack cable. Like, I saw for the first time, a cable stuck out of a pillow. It's real.
(Mario) Man!
(Pawel( Hahaha.
(Mario) How do you wash that thing?
(Pawel) Actually, you have to remove the headset from inside and you can do that. It's not totally sued together, you can remove it and you should remove it when you wash it. Yeah, it's not waterproof or anyhow made resistance to that amount of water and then you put it back in. And the way it works is basically you connect it and you play the music or anything you want. And you I think the best position to be is to lie on your back and near your right ear you will definitely hear the sound with enough volume for you to understand it, but with low enough that definitely you can't be heard from outside your room. Like when I was outside my bedroom, I couldn't hear a thing. I could maybe hear something like there is something going on, but I couldn't tell what it was. And it wasn't definitely disturbing. And ideally, it should also be quiet enough that the person you're sleeping with, if that's the case, doesn't hear it either.
This, I would say, is questionable, I guess it depends on the model. I got a pillow from a company called Kanguru. I think it is. Yeah, Kanguru. And you can put your phone a bit quieter and then it's more difficult to hear it for the other person, but it's also more difficult to hear it for you. But at any rate, even with the higher volume levels, it's not disturbing to the point where it's not a speaker is not a proper speaker. So it's definitely not disturbing so much as if you played it on the loudspeaker of your phone, for example. And it's quite wide as well. It's, uh, I think my size was 70 to 35 to something. And yeah, the sound is clear.
I made the mistake of putting it upside down the first time, and I thought this speaker is not that good. But then I turned it around and it turned out that I was supposed to keep it on the other side. Hahahaha.
(Mario, Hlinur) Hahaha.
(Pawel) And yeah, I can definitely say it's a nice, it's a neat gadget and it's, uh, something I could recommend, especially if you like, falling asleep to some audiobook or some piece of music or podcast or radio or anything like that. It's definitely, uh.
(Tanja) But does it have any mode that it stops or turns off after some time or you have to have such application on the mobile phone because you don't want to play all the night.
(Pawel) Yeah, no, it's extremely low tech. It doesn't have any buttons. You don't do anything. Even the volume you have to control on your target device.
(Hlinur) It’s basically just a speaker.
(Pawel( Yes, exactly. It's like wearing your headphones except the headphone is laying beside you, not on your head. But I think both iOS has a built-In sleep timer as far as I know. And for Android you can install and like most apps that you probably use, have some kind of sleep timer. And for those that don't, you can install an external app that does the trick. So that's not so much of a problem, but it's there and it's quite nice, although there are different models and you can even find pillows with actual speakers. So if you can if you live alone or with somebody with whom you listen to the same stuff while falling asleep, you can definitely get something like this. And it's also there on Amazon. Um, there'll be the link to to my model in the show notes.
New gadgets: Pawel's music winter hat the second thing I got is a music winter hat, Because I thought
(Tanja) mhm
(Pawel) like since we have to wear hats anyway, not to get cold…
(Mario) Uh,
(Pawel) we may make it practical as well, and while I know that there are, of course, the bone conduction headphones, I just wanted to give it a try and see if this is worth anything, because with this kind of technology, you might end up with something that is good and something that is not so good (depends because there are no like established companies that manufacture such things), umm so I went on Amazon as well, and I ended up getting, uh, Geekerchip, that’s how it’s called, and it cost me around 20 euros, and I must say it's quite good worth for the price. Basically, it's a winter hat, it's quite thick, so you can't you don't have to worry that it's… you you get cold or anything. It's a bit too big for my head, I figured,
(Tanja) [laughter]
(Pawel) so… Yeah, maybe some manual modifications will be needed, but basically what it has is a… there is a cable running around your forehead that goes to two rectangular speaker capsules like pads, and both of them are playing at the same time, so it’s stereo, you connect them via Bluetooth…
The sound is really clear. I was really surprised. You can even get a bit of bass out of this.
So it's definitely not… It's not the lowest quality, but that's for sure.
(Mario) Where those caps are positioned then?
(Pawel) Ideally on your ears.
(Mario) Aha,
(Pawel) I say ideally because the cap is a different size than my head, so they don't lie ideally there, in my case, but I think that's the destination part; in your right ear you will have the “turn on” button aaand…
It also has separate previous and next track buttons, which is sometimes quite nice because some apps use this for other purposes, like Dotwalker navigation for example you can switch between different info you do using previous and next button and…
You can, of course, play and pause, you can, of course, pick up and end your calls and of course it has a microphone too, so you can have your calls using just your winter hat. And actually, this sounds good. I had a conversation already with somebody whilst being on a bus stop and there were cars running and everything, and the other party could hear me well. And when I asked later how she found the quality, she said it was… she couldn't tell I was using something different, so this is definitely good. And, um, you can, as I said, listen to everything you want. It has Bluetooth 5.0 so… Ummm all the new stuff should be there, including the fact that for Android phones, it doesn't have this annoying bug where your Bluetooth goes to sleep after a while, so even if you start using your screen reader after a bit of inactivity, it will instantly start speaking, it will not kick in with a bit of delay like some speakers do, so that's definitely…
(Mario) Aaa, Okay…
(Pawel) That's definitely good.
(Mario) Yeah
(Pawel) I must say, it's not overly loud, and so when I'm in the street, for example doing something, and there is really high traffic going on with the cars, I had problems understanding a podcast I was listening to, but then I didn't have a problem understanding my screen reader; but then I'm using Acapela TTS and it's a bit more bassy, so maybe that's the reason.
I would have to still try it with music, for example, the phone call was OK. I think I had a bit of trouble understanding the other person, but that's sometimes the case, even without any kind of headphones, so maybe it wasn't that; but definitely the podcast was too quiet, even though I had both my phone and these headphones on full volume.
(Tanja) Hmmm
(Pawel) But it's definitely comfortable to use when, for example, I'm walking and I just want to check my bus schedule and I don’t want to put the phone right right up to my ear. I just keep it low in my hand or in my pocket and I navigate through the apps then I can definitely understand what my TTS is saying.
And first of all, because the pads don't lie so tightly on your ears like they do in case of regular headphones, I think it's a bit safer to use this when out and about. And also, I know that you can achieve even better effects probably with your, uh, bone conduction headphones, and apparently this this newer aftershocks, you can even put nicely on winter hats, and they still work quite well, I heard, but I think for me, at least, it's more intuitive because, well, I always keep my winter hat inside my jacket pocket, so it's also instinctive for me to put it on and when I put it on, I already have this habit of turning it on so that my phone is instantly connected. And yeah, it it works really well. I still have to find where to remove the pads for, first of all, charging, second of all for washing the hat, But I'm definitely sure it's somewhere there. You can also start the assistants, as was indicated before, with the other headphones and switch the tracks, that works perfectly, holding down the buttons for switching the tracks also raises and lowers the volume; and yeah, that's pretty much all about it. It's quite nice and I think it's also one of these gadgets I'll be using on a daily basis.
(Tanja) Yeah, and…
(Mario) Aaaa, OK! So…
(Tanja) Do you know, what is the material? Probably it’s not wool.
(Pawel) Ummm, I'm not sure, but it's really thick and warm, so I must see aaaa…
(Tanja) Yeah, Okay.
(Pawel) it's it's definitely… really similar to my previous winter hat that I used before.
(Tanja) Ok, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I have to say that here before the pandemic in Luxembourg, we had a very nice festival,
(Mario) Migration Festival, no?
(Tanja) Migration Festival, But actually I was thinking about the International Bazaar.
(Mario) Oh, yeah, yeah.
(Tanja) Where people from different countries sell like Christmas stuff, and things, products that are related to Christmas, and there was a stand from Iceland…
(Hlynur) Ohh…
(Tanja) And they were selling products based from wool.
Yeah, and I have some Icelandic hats and they're really, really warm. They're the warmest that I have. Of course they're not Bluetooth and ehmm…
(Hlynur) We could do something about that.
[laughter]
(Tanja) Yeah, but, uh, no, no, it's amazing. It's amazing. And I remember the lady said, well, you don't have such a cold winter here in Luxembourg. You don't need this very thick one. Well, you know, for me, it's important that is the thickest possible.
(Hlynur) Yeah, yeah…
(Tanja) but. Okay.
(Hlynur) Can’t beat the Icelandic wool, can you?
(Tanja) Yeah, yeah…
(Mario) No, no…
[laughter]
(Pawel) I guess if you’re, if you're handy with your with your needle and thread, you can probably do the necessary modifications to install the, um, speaker parts inside. [laughter]
(Mario) [laughter]
(Tanja) Yyyyeah, I don't know. I wouldn't do it for my. [laughter]
(Pawel) Okay.
(Tanja) As it would be a pity to destroy a…
(Mario) And then imagine, you put your, you put your speaker inside and then you all you hear is…
[The sound of a sheep bleating is played)
[laughter]
(Tanja) Yeah. No, no, no.
(Mario) Naaah...
(Tanja) Anyway we have sheeps here close by.
(Mario) Yeah, It's true.
[laughter]
(Tanja) So no, this is true. We… here where I live, there are some sheeps that you can hear in spring and yeah… until the winter starts. But OK, are these all the gadgets that we can talk about on the podcast?
(Mario) hmmmm
(Pawel) I think yes.
(Tanja) Well, there are many. Santa brought many gadgets this year. Well, or last year.
(Mario) Yeah, hmm…
(Hlynur) Yeah, he got very creative when he was giving Pavel his gadget
(Tanja) Yeah!
(Mario) [laughter]
(Pawel) For sure, yes.
[laughter]
(Tanja) Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Yeah. I'm looking forward to new gadgets from Pawel.
[laughter]
(Tanja) Yeah…
(Pawel) There are some more there are some more kinds of clothes that you can put speakers in, so people have like um…
I think CES also seen a rise in this like… apparently there was a Bluetooth speaker helmet that you can connect with other helmets of the same brand to stay in touch over walkie talkie when you're cycling.
(Mario) Oh yeah.
(Pawel) So I think
(Tanja) Ah, okay.
(Pawel) there'll be more of the smart, uh, clothing things and this is really interesting.
For sure, there are, um, gloves and jackets with built in power bank to warm you up. This I already heard of, although I never tested…
(Hlynur) Yeah, the, I've heard of the heat jackets. Also wondering: maybe those pillows, maybe they also are made in stereo so you can…
(Mario) [laughter]
who knows?
(Pawel) Yeah…
(Hlynur) have two pillows with the same audio and just one jack?
(Pawel) Aaaah, yesT, there, actually, there are. I've seen some models for couples that have that have like two jacks and you can plug in two different sources or you have two speakers so each person can take one and you can listen both to the same things.
(Hlynur) Of course
(Pawel) And Valentine's Day is coming, so you never know.
(Hlynur) You never know.
(Pawel) Who will find these recommendations useful.
(Hlynur) It's always like that. Once I have an idea, someone has already beat me to it.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah.
(Hlynur) It's always the case.
(Tanja) [laughter]
Yeah.
(Mario) You never can get rich.
(Hlynur) No, never.
[laughter]
(Tanja) Yes. Maybe once you should try.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Hlynur) Yeah, maybe, maybe, who knows? Never say never.
(Tanja) Yeah, yeah.
(Mario) Of course
(Tanja) last time we mentioned a bug in Zoom when you were using virtual background and screen reader and video at the same time; and this was fixed in some of the last version. I'm not sure, because from that episode when we recorded, they were three updates, so at some point late December, at the end of December, this issue was fixed; so now you can use your virtual background without issues, without having this annoying dialogue box.
(Hlynur) Yeah, this is definitely the way we wanted to start 2021.
(Tanja) Yes.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) absolutely, So you can use the virtual background…
(Pawel) Shout, shoutout to the…
(Tanja) Yeah?
(Pawel) Zoom tech support for reacting so fast because
(Hlynur) Yeah
(Pawel) definitely wasn't like a major bug that affects a lot of user base and given that we reported about it the last time and now we are six weeks later, more or less, it means that they were really fast with reacting to this and given that, you know, we are not their biggest user base, it's definitely a shout out to them that they took their time to quickly fix it.
(Hlynur) Yeah, definitely.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) Yes, and Zoom…
(Mario) And the thing is that you cannot find it in the their changelog.
(Tanja) You cannot find it.
(Mario) I went to, I went in to the Changelog up to November…
(Tanja) Mhm
(Mario) when we recorded the episode, and I couldn't see that they mentioned it very specifically, that it was fixed.
(Tanja) Yeah.
(Mario) So eventually it is fixed, but we don't know in which release it…
(Tanja) Yeah, yeah, but still in Zoom, they really take accessibility seriously and...
(Mario) Yeah, yeah…
(Tanja) that's great for us because we know that not all of the conferencing tools are accessible like Zoom so great for Zoom.
(Mario) Yeah, I hope they also will fix, or maybe they fixed it, this very annoying bug of recording where you would do a multi-track recording and then you would try to combine all the tracks later you would find out that not all of them are having the same length; so we are in talk with Zoom for about a few months now to get it fixed. We will see if it's if it's done at the end. But yeah, we hope it will it will be resolved.
(Tanja) OK, maybe, maybe if you say it on a podcast, it will be done for the next time.
(Mario) Yeah. Maybe. You need to say it in the podcast, you see.
(Tanja) Yeah.
Accessibility in the news CES 2021 (Tanja) So the first news that I would like to start with is the CES that Pawel already mentioned, so the Consumer Electronics Show, that is a yearly tech event, normally organised in Las Vegas, but this year was virtual and normally we have big brands there - the same was this year - but it was interesting to see also the trend of the technology and gadgets that were presented. Some of them were like smart home devices, more oriented to headphones and noise cancellation because everyone is working from home or also some 3D speakers or also clean tech like air purifiers that claim to purify the air from some viruses, covid included, and also UV cleaner that you can use for cleaning smartphone.
(Mario) Mhm.
(Tanja) So this was interesting that the pandemic influenced also the technology industry. And what is interesting is that we also have the assistive technology industry there, which is good not only for us to be presented, but also to educate the technology industry what features can be adopted in future products and from the articles that they found, they say that this year much more products were more inclusive, so it was not only targeting one type of users, but they were more inclusive, which is great. So some of the devices that I found are some hearing aids that are based on AI or lip recognition system that was even used, they say, for covid patients to understand what they're saying when they're unable to speak; so there’re different assistive technologies for different disabilities, but regarding visual impairment, there was, for example, Aware application from Sensible Innovation, that is a turn-by-turn indoor navigation system. It uses electronic stickers, they call them smart landmarks that basically are iBeacons with Bluetooth Low Energy, so this is like an alternative for for beacons that like a building or like a public space has to label the rooms in order for the application to recognise them and to provide a description to the user. It's another indoor and navigation system, so it would be interesting to see, is it more precise comparing to the others already existing?
(Hlynur) I’m also interested…
(Mario) We don't know.
(Hlynur) I'm also interested in learning about how they would price themselves.
(Tanja) Mhm…
(Hlynur) These solutions tend to… These Bluetooth indoor navigation solutions tend to be quite pricey.
(Mario) Yeah, true.
(Tanja) Mmhm…
(Mario) For example, I personally think that the way of Beacons is over in terms of indoor GPS navigations, I think that what we will see in the future is that we will see the development of the apps which use cameras for making the indoor mapping, and then while you make your mapping, then later you can configure all the stuff what you need… so once you have everything ready, you will just walk into the certain space with your phone and you will select a map from that building or shopping centre or whatever you find that it's being…
(Tanja) mmhm.
(Mario) online on the server, it would work basically very similar to the standard outdoor GPS app. In fact, I think this is the… also the way of how GoodMaps is supposed to be running. Pawel, is that right?
(Pawel) Yes, that's what I read. So basically, there is a wizard in which you create the map of your building, you upload it and it works by using your camera to orientate yourself in the building to compare the image of the camera with the image in the creator.
(Mario) Ok, so you need to have your camera up and running.
(Pawel) I think… Yes, I think it's using the camera for retracing the route.
(Tanja) Yeah…
(Pawel) That's what I read.
(Tanja) I think… I think too. And this is the difference between this Aware app because that one does not use camera. It it uses the…
(Pawel) The beacons...
(Tanja) it connects yeah with iBeacons.
(Pawel) There's plenty of this beacons based systems and none of them seem to go much further than
(Mario) True! Yeah!
(Tanja) Mmhm
(Pawel) than these test installations that they advertised like, of course, there are some smaller and bigger successes with different systems in different countries, but they seem to be very far, few and between and also, there seems to be no alliance to establish a standard about this, so everyone is experimenting on their own
(Tanja) Mmhm.
(Pawel) and we keep hearing that this system will be a revolution, this system will be a revolution. But they all seem to be a similar concept and none of them is gaining or hardly any of them is gaining enough traction to say, OK, this is the thing. It's more like people are playing around at different places with different systems and… Somehow these beacons don't want to really work too well…
(Hlynur) they they don't they don't stay. I mean, they might work for a while, but there's a lot of… lot of work that needs to be done to maintain it also: changing batteries, making sure that everything is working properly and what I tend to see once it comes to maintaining accessibility, there is rarely someone responsible for it.
(Pawel) I think it's like more…
(Tanja) Mmhm.
(Pawel) like pushing the pushing the task from people to people like the manufacturers say it should be the responsibility of the municipalities of the city, that they deploy some task force that will that basically is concentrated on the accessibility of the city and they manage all the different issues, and they should also have somebody who does the conservation of these things.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah.
(Hlynur) Mmhm.
(Pawel) And then the city is like, “No, we don't have the time, we don't know, we don't have the people.” and often it goes down to either some voluntary groups of people who do it or don't do it or they go back “Yeah, it’s the manufacturers’ job. They should come and fix it.” and it's ping pong, ping pong and nobody does it.
(Tanja and Hlynur) Yeah.
(Hlynur) True.
(Tanja) Maybe here is the problem. Maybe there should be a better support for the customer.
(Pawel) Yeah, I also heard that with this beacon's, the problem is that, um, if you have a lot of them located near each other for really precise navigation from like door to door, the signals tend to overcome each other and it's difficult to…
(Mario) also there is interference?
(Pawel) Yeah.
(Mario) Oh, that sucks, man.
(Tanja) Mmhm.
(Pawel) that's that's what I heard.
So, like the Beacons alone will not give you the navigation. It’s maybe also good that the beacons give some feedback as well from themselves so we can locate each individual transmitter.
(Tanja) Yeah, well, we will see if that will be used in the future more or another app. Anyway, I think in big buildings, it’s it’s quite convenient to have it. There is also a list of venues inside the application that you can see where the maps were already created and most of them are in the States. So I hope at some point it will come also to Europe.
And OK, talking about some other gadgets, there is also a
(Mario) Mudra Band.
(Hlynur) Mudra Band
(Mario) I don’t know, it’s it’s… Yeah, it’s from…
(Tanja) Mudra?
(Mario) Yeah, it's from India. I mean, the Mudras are from ancient Sanskrit or Hindi or whatever.
(Tanja) Okay, I didn't know that.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, it's kind of interesting device, though, it's conceptual for the moment and it's in development, that's from my understanding, what I was able to distinguish, because they have a also a YouTube video, which is not audio described, so you don't know, in fact, what's going on; but the guy in the video talks quite a lot so you could get…
(Hlynur) Yeah, and he was quite happy about it.
(Mario) Yeah, he was quite happy about it. Yeah, true.
(Tanja) well, it’s an advertisement.
[Laughter]
(Mario) Yeah, of course it's the advertisement,
(Hlynur) Of course.
(Mario) but the whole concept of the device is that it's supposed to help people with various diseases, such as ALS, who basically are having problems with the movement, and it's supposed to give the set of commands to the Apple Watch, so you are able to operate the the Apple Watch with this Mudra Band that you're wearing and… Now, now, I found two things, which are contradiction, one to each other. They're saying that they're using neural network coming out from from the brain where you’re able to detect like to think of of certain command and then make that command available to the device, but in the same time, they're talking about the fact that you're using only one hand to operate the device with very, very small finger movement; so they're they're using some kind of special gestures.
(Hlynur) Yes, I think I can elaborate.
(Mario) OK, yeah. You saw the video, actually, so, yes.
(Hlynur) So they’re they have these sensors on the on the Mudra Band that detect once which fingers you are actually moving, and if you're like you can do a gesture, just shake your hand, and that would like answer an incoming call and you could use like each and every finger, just move it downwards and back up again, like that would be changed to the next screen or switch to a next song in Spotify or whatever. So just different finger and hand gestures would mean, like they sense a different kind of motion from each one.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Hlynur) Which will then deploy an action from that.
(Tanja and Mario) Mm hmm.
(Hlynur) So there was nothing…
(Mario) Oh, Okay.
(Hlynur) I don't think you would need to have any special brain activity going on.
[laughter]
(Mario) Because he was mentioning that in the video when he was talking.
(Hlynur) Yeah.
(Mario) But that was eventually kind of speech. Practically then you are just operating the device via your very small hand and finger movements.
(Hlynur) Yeah. I mean…
(Tanja) Yeah.
(Hlynur) it's, it’s, it’s I think it works just maybe a little bit more advanced, but in a similar way, like like a heart rate monitor on a watch.
(Mario) Who thinks that this is something that it could be useful for you, it's the thing is available for pre-order, umm, on their website.
(Hlynur) I thought, Yeah, I thought it was neat. I really did, but…
(Mario) Okay.
(Hlynur) I'm not I’m not an iPhone man, so it's not for me yet. I I do have a Garmin smartwatch. Umm, I wait till I can buy a Mudra Band for that.
(Mario) Oh yeah. Alright, alright.
(Tanja) Yeah, well…
(Mario) I mean, the device itself, if this is the case that it's really helpful, is not that expensive. It's ummm, I I saw the pre-order prices about $179,
(Tanja) Yeah.
(Mario) so it's OK. I mean, if this is something that could be helping, people would, you know…
(Hlynur) Yeah, I mean, you don't have to use you don't have to I mean it can make the watch also quite more accessible. Uh, I don't know, does Apple Watch, uh. Have a TTS or it does it work with the with the iPhone?
(Mario) Yeah yeah yeah, sure, yeah, yeah, it’s it speaks.
(Hlynur) Ok, so in that way you could have better accessibility with the watch if you know just which gestures you need to do for which action, so you don't need to use the touch screen of the watch to do it.
(Mario) Yeah, true. True. Yeah. In that case that's something that could be also. Yeah.
(Hlynur) But of course this, this is only good if it works.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) Yeah, as if it works as described, yeah.
(Hlynur) Yeah.
(Pawel) And and if it's built with different accessibility scenarios in mind, of course, For VoiceOver you will need for example a bit different arrangements than for regular use.
(Tanja) Mmhm.
(Pawel) Support gestures for instance…
(Hlynur) Pawel, do you have an Apple Watch?
(Pawel) No, I don't actually I don't have any any kind of smartwatch.
(Tanja) Yeah.
(Hlynur) Ok, so so then we're expecting two new gadgets from you next time around.
(Hlynur and Pawel) An apple Watch with a Mudra Band
(Mario) [laughter]
(Pawel) Oh.
(Tanja) No, but he's an Android guy, so I doubt.
(Pawel) if Apple Watch works already, like alone, independently enough from the phone that you can use it without having one then, well…
(Tanja) yeah, why not.
(Hlynur) You never know.
(Pawel) Definitely.
[laughter]
(Mario) Yeah, well so far it didn't happen so.
(Pawel) Yeah.
(Tanja) Yeah. But talking about health technology, health related technology, uh, there was also one application mentioned at CES that can measure your blood pressure through the camera.
(Mario) Oh, yeah, that was from Biospectal Technologies, that's a company based in Switzerland, and they started developing an app which is now in the beta cycle, basically, you can also go on the website of the company and apply for their beta programme if you want; and the coolest thing is that this app is supposed to measure your your blood pressure through the camera of the phone.
(Tanja) Mmhm.
(Mario) and what they have done is that on their website, they have an article from The Nature newspaper for… it's a science newspaper, where they published all the study, which they made on, I don't know what they say, about 150 people that were included in the studies and they were saying that the end product should be basically something that should be largely available and also accessible to people who are also not able to afford themselves a normal blood pressure device measure and… But the end results, what they achieved so far, according to the to the study published, was really amazing. It was almost identical to the blood pressure thing, which you would normally use.
(Tanja) Yeah.
(Mario) So we can definitely see that this is something that will come out very soon and that that will transform the usage of the smart phones again.
(Tanja) Yeah, that will be really wonderful and also not only if you can afford or not, maybe you consider that standard blood pressure is more reliable, or at least at the start, because for the moment it is still in development phase, but also, I think it's very practical when you're around, not at home.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) And then, I don't know, maybe you you have a problem with your blood pressure and you can measure it or you maybe don't have, but you want to check, so it's I think it's really practical for everyone. Well, I'm looking forward to it. We'll see.
OK, and then also what is interesting in the context of the CES: the portal Engadget did an interview with the Microsoft chief officer for accessibility, Jenny Lay Flurrie.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) And the Google product manager for Android Accessibility, Brian Kemler, where they speak about inclusive design in Microsoft and Google, we will share the YouTube link in the show notes.
I think it's very inspiring for all companies seeing how big brands like Microsoft and Google are dealing with inclusion and accessibility.
(Pawel) Yeah, and, uh, I think also it was good time for both companies to sum up what they achieved last year when it comes to accessibility. Uh, Google mentioned their Live Transcribe and, uh, Microsoft mentioned the again the Xbox adaptive controller. What they didn't mention, but I'm pretty sure they somehow advertised it in the CES, is the fact that shortly before Christmas, there was a new version of Seeing AI out.
(Tanja) Mmhm.
(Pawel) It was the… Was it the 3.0, I think it is 3.0, the version number is quite high anyway, like the major milestone and this is not without the reason. On one hand, I am especially happy because finally the app has been localised to Polish, so all the all the options are finally in Polish, and a couple of other languages were added too, I think, uh, Czech and Slovak or at least Czech was there, and I think a couple of Scandinavian ones erm… everything is in the release notes. But let's say game breaker that they introduced was the New World Channel, which lets you look around if you have one of the latest iPhone 12 I think Pro and Pro Max, with the Lidar sensor, you can tell what objects are in your vicinity and how far they are; and not only can you be told in metres how far they are, but also you can hear that in space, so when you were wearing headphones, you will hear, for example, that the door is coming on from the right, what you can then do is you can set a beacon on this door and you can hear the sound of the door and then you can align yourself to that door and reach it easier without asking around for its exact location. I heard a demo of this feature, and I must say I have a feeling that the soundscape app from Microsoft that also does this 3D location of points outside like on a map, had a bit wider stereo field, maybe the fault of something of the recording of in the podcast or there was some other factors at play. But I had a feeling like the stereo field was a bit narrower here than it was with the the 3D field, let's say, than it was with the Soundscape, but still, I think it's a nice feature. It's the. I'm really curious to see what's going to happen with the Lidar in the future, because more and more apps are trying to use it, for now to calculate the distance, but maybe there will be there is definitely potential for some more things to happen with this AI plus Lidar, and I hope more phones will also receive it so that the lower budget things will also have the Lidar.
(Tanja) That's really great. And I'm using Seeing AI quite often for recognising products or to read with the short description channel text, but I think it would be great that also in the product channel, we have also the possibility to read the expiry date. I don't know if some products provide this information, but at least with the products that I'm normally checking, it never gives any details. It just tells me the name of the product and that is all. But it would be great to have also the expiry date, so I, I wrote to Seeing AI team and um, I don't know if they will be ever able to introduce it, but I think it would be a nice feature.
(Pawel) Yeah, definitely.
(Tanja) Yeah.
(Pawel) from my favourite CES picks like devices that I've seen that were presented, I think what could be interesting is the face mask from Razer, which is supposed to have a built-In microphone and speaker so that your voice can be heard, um, by everyone as clearly as if you didn't wear the mask, so I think it's definitely good. I often run into these situations where I'm talking to somebody or asking for something with the mask on and people are having difficulties understanding me, so I think it's really great that this is being thought of and, uh, this kind of device will be more common. I actually wanted to look for one maybe…
(Mario) There we go. How many minutes did it pass since we mentioned his new gadget? Fifteen?
[laughter]
(Mario) Ok,
(Tanja) yes
(Pawel) Yeah.
(Mario) Fifteen minutes.
(Tanja) Is it already on the market or?
(Pawel) No, I think it's going to go out on the market sometime this year, but…
(Tanja) OK, we should be patient then.
(Pawel) Yes, but it’s it’s I mean…
(Hlynur) But you can bet that Pawel will buy the first one.
(Pawel) Yes.
(Mario) Yeah. You'll be a beta tester.
(Pawel and Hlynur) Yeah.
(Mario [through megaphone]) Test your face mask
(Pawel) What is also quite nice, it's not accessibility related or any, like, firsthand gadget you might think of is a smart perfume dispenser from Ninu or at least Ninu is the name of the product where you put a couple of base ingredients for a fragrance in a dispenser and then you use your iPhone and the companion iPhone app of the product to finetune the quantity of each ingredient, and this way you generate your own perfume in that way, your own fragrance. This is also quite interesting.
(Tanja) And what if you by mistake put too much quantity?
(Pawel) Ohh, that will be interesting what would come out of this. It's interesting whether the app actually has some pre-programmed measurements and it will try to stop you doing that
(Tanja) Mmhm.
(Pawel) or it will let you experiment and you’d just create something that smells awful, but…
[laughter]
That’s for…
(Tanja) [laughter]]
(Hlynur) So you could play you could play a prank on someone and add a bit of like garlic powder to their dispenser.
[laughter]
(Pawel) Yeah, yeah, probably. Probably. And then you could hack the app and do crazy things with it. Yeah. Yeah. Who knows.
(Tanja) Yeah.
Microsoft Azure Text to Speech neural voices (Tanja) Ok, we can go to the next topic, which is about Microsoft Azure TTS service that offers new natural neural voices and they sound really, really amazing. I tried with the Croatian and French and Italian that they speak and it sounds really natural. Honestly, it sounds even more natural with French and Italian, probably because it happens always that bigger languages sound better because they're probably tested more thoroughly than small languages. So I don't know. But even the Croatian sounds amazing.
(Mario) Yeah, they really sound great. The first time I heard them, I got scared and I was like, hey, who's this on the other side talking? It's that good.
(Tanja) Oh yeah.
(Mario) I really, really hope that Microsoft. Will think about maybe making some kind of mobile versions of those Azure voices TTS voices, because, man, this sounds these sounds awesome. It really sounds great, especially I mean, Croatian sounds great. Those… They have, I think 3 voices. One is the Matej voice, which is already used in windows, which is not bad, but those new two ones are fantastic. It is as you would really you are listening to some live person.
(Tanja) Like real human.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah. Yes. It's crazy. And I can only think that for these newer languages, I mean, bigger languages, it sounds great. As a matter of fact, we will give some audio examples in the podcast so you can hear how it sounds.
(Examples of Microsoft neural TTS voices)
Hello dear EBU Access Cast listeners.
I'm new TTS Azure voice from Microsoft and I can speak many different languages and even their dialects. I hope you like what you hear!
(mario) But man, those Azure voices, they kick arse and really!
(Hlynur) I listen to some of them.
And speaking about those larger languages, I was kind of. Surprised that Icelandic wasn't there.
(Mario) No, it's not,
(Hlynur) (laughter) But that is something that we are getting quite used to being left behind since there are under 400000 people in the world who speak Icelandic. But that is why we are working on governmental projects within Iceland, actually creating everything, all the data, all that needs to, like, create a new Icelandic voice or to have gadget's recognising voices in Icelandic understand the language. And so hopefully in a few years then maybe and they will be open source to everyone. So maybe finally Google and Apple will find the time to create Icelandic voices as well. But I do agree that those voices that I heard, they all sounded terrific.
(Mario) Yeah,
(Hlynur) I'm very happy for you guys.
(Tanja) Well, still, we cannot use them inside Narrator or text to speech. This is a pity for the moment. It's only available to developers to use these voices.
Inside the Azure service,
(Pawel) For generated announcements, I guess if there was a train station that wanted to use this for train announcements, for example, they would be able to buy the licence and generate the necessary data.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah,
(Pawel) but have you tried with Microsoft Apps because Microsoft Edge actually has this read reading feature where the TTS can read the article for you and at least Polish one of these voices is available there.
(Mario) It's true, but it's not completely integrated. The thing is that you can use it with the edge, but you don't see all the voices available, for example, for Croatian language, you just see the Matej one, which is also default in windows. OK, but you cannot use the newer ones, which sucks.
(Pawel) Yeah, that's interesting because for Polish we have one of the new voices there, one of the neural voices. Only one but still.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe it will come, maybe it will come still. Maybe it comes in. Yeah. newer updates.
(Pawel) But what I find really great is that at last all of the official EU languages are supported. So if you think of all the languages where usually the companies left out, you mentioned Croatian but there is also Slovenian, there is Lithuanian, there is Latvian, Estonian, all of them are supported, Maltese even and Irish. And there is Gaelic, Irish, I think so really small languages where the big companies usually don't introduce the voices. And now all of them are there is like the whole EU is already covered as far as TTS is concerned, which is I think really great if we think of the European Accessibility Act and the TTS implementations for all the devices that will need to be accessible.
Um, also, the English voices have different styles, I don't know if you played around with this, like, uh, you can choose if the voice should be more like a news-style reporter or IVR system, like a phone answering machine or, uh, something else. There are different styles. And I think this is definitely targeted at
(Hlynur) Yeah. Commercial based.
(Mario) Yes, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
I remember when, you know, when there was a time when people used to travel around so many years ago (laughter).
(Hlynur) Many years ago. Yeah. (laughs)
(Mario) When you would go into certain airports, some of the announcement systems on the airport would be TTS based already.
(Tanja) Mm hmm.
(Mario) So I see that on those airports and train stations and et cetera. this kind of TTS voices would be absolutely welcome to use there. And and you do understand it perfectly.
(Tanja) You would think that a human is reading the announcement.
(Mario) yeah, sure.
(Pawel) I was also very impressed with the German voices because they even have German dialected voices. There is German, Germany, German, Austria and German, Switzerland. And whilst I well, I'm in Austria now, so I'm part used to people speaking Austrian German a little bit around me. And I heard the Austrian voices. They didn't sound much different. I just thought it's like another, German officials, the voice. And then I put on the Swiss German voices and you put you could put in like, uh, text written in German because Swiss German, for example, has a bit of a different spelling. Sometimes if you go deeper into the dialect, some words are spelled differently. But I put in like a German text written in German. And I tried with the I think 2 or 3 voices there, and I tried the first one, it was just normal and I tried the second one, the female one. And it even reproduced some of the characteristics of the dialect that suggest you wrote the text differently. So it was completely pronouncing the words like the person over there would. And it was really impressive. Like you could tell that phonetics is all right, that, uh, the endings are exactly alike in the dialect. And it was really impressive how it transformed a text that was written in German into Swiss, German. That was you would tell it was, uh, it was the original German text. It's really impressive.
(Mario) I also noticed that while listening to this newer Croatian voices, you could also, if you would put I put some like one page of text to listen to it. And while listening to this text, you could also hear a simulation of a person breathing, which was really scary.
(Pawel) Oh, yeah, that too,
Mario because this breathing thing started to be introduced in some of the Alex voice from Apple I think it was I found that that was OK for for that time when it was developed, it sounded OK, but it was a bit kind of unnatural. But right now, when you're listening to this, it's scary. You're hearing the person reading and then taking a new breath to continue reading. Well, OK. Yeah. So now we know how the robot's will sound like in 20 years or what, 20 years, even less.
(Pawel) There is also the option to play with SSML, which is like a programming language for the behaviour of text to speech synthesis. I don't know how to work this in that console in Azure, but, um, I'm pretty sure you can also do some interesting stuff with this if you know how to.
(Tanja) Can you imagine that in the future We just write the podcast and we load it to these neural voices?
(Mario) Yeah, well,
(Pawel) it wouldn't have our character, though, I mean, the voices are great and everything, but what
(Hlynur) I would have tapes on Australian English.
(Pawel) OK, but not what I would find interesting, like podcasting would be. And I think already it's beginning to exist is like a podcast editor. That is like a text editor. So, for example, if one of us makes a mistake in the speech, you can see the text for the transcript. You edit out the mistake in text and it's replaced in voice. And I think there is already a solution like that that is being worked on.
(Tanja) Hmm.
(Hlynur) That's awesome.
(Tanja) Yeah, I noticed in some YouTube videos, sometimes people use text to speech voices instead of talking.
(Mario) Yeah,
(Tanja) OK.
(Mario) That's what I want to see as well.
(Tanja) We'll see in the future.
Earthquake Apps (Tanja) But, I wanted to talk now about accessible applications for detecting or for warning about the earthquakes, because actually just before the new year or after the Christmas, there was a strong earthquake in Croatia.
(Mario) Actually, a series of earthquakes like, yeah, and the one of them was very strong, 6.2.
(Tanja) Yes, yes, unfortunately, our buildings are also not earthquake-proof.
Because in some areas where earthquakes are happening often, like in Japan, I guess also they constructed the buildings in the way so that they're not affected because actually for an earthquake, this was not, like, so strong. It was 6,4. It was strong But of course, if you have a building that is not resistant, then then it's too strong already.
But OK, coming back to what we can do, at least to be more safe. There are some applications that send warnings by push notifications on the mobile phone or work as add-on.
So I tried My Earthquake Alert application and iOS and I'm impressed because it is quite accessible. It is customisable. You can customise the location where you are and what notifications you would like to receive, like if there is an earthquake only nearby you or inside your country or continent or all. But I guess you would not would like to have all because there are many daily like one per hour or even more. And you can customise also the sound of the alert, which is nice, because very often on iPhone you cannot customise the sound on some applications, which I know that on Android you can do much more easily. So you can distinguish the sound of from this application from the other sounds. These application cannot predict the earthquake. There was another one called Earthquake Network that at least claims that it can predict earthquake or in short term time. But I did not find it accessible. I did not manage to see the list of recent earthquakes that I was able to see in my earthquake alert. And then at this application, my earthquake alert receives the information from EMSC.
(Mario) Various sources.
(Tanja) Yes, from different earthquake agencies like EMSC which is the European Mediterranean Seismological Centre and also some other centres. And also users can provide information If there was an earthquake, they can inform the others. And I think it's amazing because it's really, really accessible. So well, that is the most important thing, I think, for us. I don't know, how did you find it on Android? Mario.
(Mario) I found this Earthquake Alert also very accessible. It's very customisable, even you can customise it to the way how you want to have the data explained to you, because for people who can see, they can also see the exact location on the map where the earthquake happened. But if you don't want to have the map, you can just have the information presented in the table, which is for us a bit easier. you don't get so much clutter on the screen. All the things which you mentioned are also highly customisable. So you can really personalise it to the your needs. And yeah, it does work. If you. I mean, once you started monitoring. Because of the situations, once you start monitoring how many earthquakes happen, you actually surprised that you don't know for 90 percent of them during the day because they're not mentioned anywhere, but they're in fact, like the whole planet is the shaking all the time. So I was a bit disappointed by the EMSC app, which is an European agency. Like it's supposed to be a major main agency for earthquake reports in Europe.
(Tanja) Last Quake? the Last Quake?
(Mario) Yeah, yeah. That's there app from EMSC, It comes as the app for the phone. And you can also get it is the add-on for browser. Eventually you can also get it installed for Edge or for Chrome, and then you can customise it also to have different information. And it also has the possibility of using its own kind of TTS reporting that there was an earthquake somewhere. However. What's annoying about the whole application is that the developers are using the same interface for all different platforms and all of them are equally Well, let's say inaccessible or partially accessible. So you can read the content if you scroll through the app for like where the earthquake happened and stuff, but in terms of. Customisation, That's not customisable as the earthquake alert, that's the other area that we mentioned.
(Tanja) well, on my side, in last quake, by using VoiceOver, I didn’t manage to enter inside settings at all so I could not customise any notification or anything.
(Mario) I was able to do that on Android for the last quake. But even if I did it, it kind of reported to me that it changed something. But eventually I didn't see anything changed. So that's really an inaccessibility issue of the app. And as I stated, the interface looks the same, whatever you launch. So whether it's a website or you go through the add-on , which again points you to the website or you download the app on whatever form and platform, it's kind of mostly the same. So, yeah, that could be improved because, you know, this is something that belongs to everybody and basically it's a public service, so, yeah, people if you’re listening to that, please think about improving accessibility on that, because it's a shame that another app, which is a US based this earthquake alert, is a US based app. And the app is first of all much more highly customisable. Second, it's much more accessible on both platforms. And it. OK, it it's taking the information from more resources, so, yeah, but OK, the good point at the end is that we have something that we can use, as you know, people with the visual impairments that's customisable and that we can get alerts about it. That's good.
(Tanja) Yes, well, regarding Last Quake, for me, I had probably the default notification because yesterday I was alerted for an earthquake here close by Luxembourg on the French and German border. So I guess the notifications are by default. But of course, you cannot rely on this because I cannot enter into the settings part, for example, when I'm scrolling through the recent earthquakes, I can scroll by heading from country to country. So this is at least the scrolling part, it is accessible. If you open the app, you can get through it. But it is true that the other, My Earthquake Alert is much, much more accessible and also I was able to see much more data there. The list was much bigger.
(Mario) Yes, yeah, yeah,
(Tanja) yeah, yeah, yeah, so I don't know, I think I will continue to use both applications. There is no harm in using two of them to be safer. Hopefully they will not be earthquakes. But it's convenient to have. The two of them, I think.
I don't know, guys. Did you use any of such applications or I don't know, probably you have national warning systems like here we do in Luxembourg.
(Pawel) Yeah, exactly, for Poland. I can say there is the text messages based one
(Hlynur) Here too.
(Pawel) which is only for the serious stuff. So, for example, when the new Covid rules came into being at the beginning of the quarantine rules and then the loosening of restrictions and so on, and also if there is going to be a really strong hurricane and so on. But we also have an app of the regional… called the Regional Warning Service or the Regional Warning System, and this is already region based, and there you get more granular information. So, for instance, if there is a disruption in some kind of train connexion, regular train connexion. There is a local or there is a car accident on one of the highways, and you would get that, you would get from the warning from the app, if the smog levels or air quality is dropping to some critical levels, you also get it. If there are some severe weather conditions, you will also get one. So for like a natural and like in severe events that could affect your commute, travel or being out and about, you will get push notifications. And the good part about it is that once you set it to one region, it will stay in that region. So even though I am in Austria, I am still getting information from home. So I know what's going on in the region where my parents still live. And if there is anything severe going on, I'll just call and check if they're all right.
(Tanja) And in Iceland, you say you have a similar system.
(Hlynur) Yeah, but not. Only for like a major event and the floods, we have no hurricanes here about like severe weather. Volcanic eruptions, some sort, but what Pawel is describing sounds actually very, very sufficient.
(Tanja) Mm hmm.
(Pawel) That also generates a lot of notifications and sometimes you don't care as much because the region is quite big and something happens somewhere on the other end where you have when you know nobody and there is no business that you do there and you still receive this. And sometimes I look at my notifications and I have like three or four from the system and there is actually nothing happening that should make me worried. But it's really good to for it to be there.
(Hlynur) Actually, on Iceland, we are I think we might still be quite old fashioned because you often just hear about these things in the news still.
(Tanja) Mm
(Pawel) hmm, mm hmm.
Well, the country's much smaller, too, so you don't need regional divisions for this. And but it would be good to have an app, right?
(Hlynur) Yeah. Like we do have some kind of different set like our emergency services they have an app. And, uh, also where you can notify them that, uh, let's say you're lost in the middle of nowhere. And so we can use to ask for help and it also automatically give them your location based on GPS. Then there is another app that we have, like from the Icelandic Weather Association. We would get like push notifications about any weather warnings, but that goes for the whole country. I think I haven't used it that much that long.
So there's a few different apps, no, like one universal app that will give you everything that you need to know. Which would be quite nice.
(Tanja) Yeah, I think here in Luxembourg there is this national warning system application.
(Mario) yeah there is.
(Tanja) But, you know, it never gave me an alert. So, I don’t know whether it works, but normally it should work.
(Hlynur) actually, maybe you just have nothing to worry about.
(Tanja) Yeah, yeah.
(Mario) To me it did.
(Mario) I did get once or twice some alerts.
(Tanja) Really?
(Mario) Yeah.
Once I got the alerts for serious storm, which they were announcing.
(Tanja) Mm hmm.
(Mario) And I think that there was something related to the lockdown when we were in lockdown at the beginning. Hmm, but I don't remember exactly, because the thing is that you get the notification. And you can just read it and then it goes away, so you cannot retrieve it anymore. You cannot see hey what was that?
(Hlynur) Did you guys have, like a covid tracking app?
(Mario) In Luxembourg, no, they had a big debate over whether they should do it or not, and the thing was that the prime minister…
(Tanja) The government was not keen to this unfortunately.
(Mario) So we never got the covid tracing up in Luxembourg, even though there was a German app which was allowed to work under in Luxembourg.
But eventually, after a certain time, I removed it from my phone because first I found that it was using lots of resources on the Bluetooth. Second of all, when it was running, I had a problem, a problem on I don't know how it would be on my new phone because I don't have it. But on my older phone, I had a problem with the priorities. So it was always taking the priority over any other Bluetooth devices. So I would find that all the other devices which I would have connected would disconnect and I would need to reconnect them manually or restart my phone very often in order to get them connected again. It was like I mean, that was problematic. So, yeah, no, we didn't have it
(Hlynur) over here The only, Like the information was only stored on your mobile phone. Uh,
(Mario) sure.
Yeah, yeah, that was the same kind of thing which was planned to be. And these German app does the same.
(Hlynur) Yeah. But once you maybe once you have covid, then they can ask for your data just to help you remember where you were, where you've been and trying to figure out who you met. There was like one team that was working on just if we had like. And we of course, we didn't have like 20000 new cases per day at most, it went to 200 new cases per day, something around that. So we could have a team working, just contacting each individual that that got the virus and they would try to determine where he got it from and who he might have. Might have transmitted it to. And and all of those people were called and and put in quarantine. So there was like a system that they try to track each and every one down and get them first. They had to isolate and everyone that they could have transmitted it to, they had to go to a quarantine and get tested. So sometimes it's good to be small, yeah, we hardly looking at any cases right now. There are also very strict on on the borders as well.
(Mario) Yeah, eventually, Iceland at the moment is one of the countries with very, very strong restrictions, but that's why you have so little cases.
(Hlynur) Yeah, and we are quite, quite we're quite happy about it. And I would like to keep it that way.
(Mario) Well, I trust you on that. Like regarding the things which is happening at the moment with this newest soy of virus.
(Hlynur) The Brazilian and the British,
(Mario) yeah, yeah, yeah, it's kind of really tricky at the moment, but yeah. Yeah.
(Pawel) Yeah, there is an app for Poland and Austria, too, and it's are accessible, they're fine. I keep the, uh, the Austrian one on that all the time.
Facebook improves the automatic alternative text (Tanja) Ok, so going to completely another topic, and this is about Facebook Automatic alternative text, which was improved. So for all screen reader users that are using Facebook, they probably noticed that the description of the images is now much more detailed. And if the person who posts the image does not provide alternative text, normally the image is recognised and there is the automatic description from Facebook that will be provided and read out by the screen reader. So they say that before their AI could recognise around 100 concepts. So this AAT started in 2016, but now when they improved it, it can recognise up to or even more than two thousand two hundred concepts, which is ten times more. And he can also give some more details like position of the object or person, like if there are two persons in the centre of the picture and some other behind, or if there's a house and the mountain and actually the mountains in the picture, it can give much, much more details. Did you try it? Do you use Facebook?
(Hlynur) I use Facebook, but I don't usually use a screen reader, so I haven't tried it out, but I like the kind of feature that they don't impose this on you, like you can long press, I think, on Android forget the detailed description of the picture. They don't enforce it on you every time or make you shut it off and turn it back on so we can like choose. It feels like it could be quite natural.
(Pawel) I haven't seen it yet, with with my Facebook interface. I wonder if this is localized straight away, this new concept. I hope they are. But what I also read this… yeah?
(Tanja) They say that it was translated in I don't remember how many languages, but that it was translated. But honestly, I tried it in English because my interface is in English, so I cannot tell for other languages.
(Pawel) Aha.
(Tanja) Yeah.
(Pawel) But I think I also read that it's supposed to recognise locations. So for example, if you were, I don't know, seeing the Tower in Pisa, it will tell you that the Tower in Pisa is in the photo. And sites like that, I don't know how many locations it’s able to recognise, but this is also nice, like having this contextual information about the surroundings in the photo. Or like the kinds of animals, most different kinds of animals, I think. I don't know if it recognises like breeds of dogs, for example, or just take more animal kinds.
(Mario) I think it would have, unless they have a certain species in the database.
(Pawel) Mhm.
(Tanja) Honestly, I don't know.
(Pawel) OK.
(Tanja) Yeah, I did not, I remember before they improved this, it was telling dog or cat, but it was always funny to me when it was seeing water, it was saying ocean, ocean or lake. And actually, the place where I’m coming from, we had the sea. We don't have the ocean. But it was funny that it was saying ocean. And I'm wondering, OK, can it tell whether there is a difference between ocean and sea, maybe only up to the location? So if we are close to the Adriatic Sea, you know, that is not an ocean, but, uh, yeah. Funny stuff with AI.
(Mario) Yeah, but definitely you're getting more information, very verbose, because, for example, last week I was doing a shooting for video shooting for my band and we published some photos on our Facebook page. And then I was looking at those with the Facebook on my phone and, yeah, it was able to describe how many people are there and a lot of stuff which eventually was there because I was there, so I knew that these objects were there, which the picture described. So eventually, yes, it kind of works, which is good.
(Tanja) Yeah. That's great, even though this does not mean that persons who would like to add alternative text, they don't have to. Of course, it was always advised to put the alternative text because it's possible and probably as author that is posting the image, you can provide even more details and maybe more accurate details. But it's good that we as users of assistive technology can have automatic descriptions because there are so many images on Facebook that it would be impossible that everybody's having alternative texts suddenly.
(Hlynur) Yeah, and also like, every kind of every picture tells a story that is more personal to get it from the author itself. I was just wondering, there have been some discussions here about Facebook and its lack of accessibility. Those users talking about it are usually like over 60 years old. How are, for example, you guys using Facebook? Are using the mobile app, are you using it on like a PC or are you, like using the browser for, like some people here are doing that m.facebook.com, the old mobile version.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, yeah. The thing is that up until it's a half year ago, the interface of the Facebook, the native one, which is usually when you go on the normal Facebook.com website, it was much worse for the accessibility than it is now. So eventually right now, I'm using just the native interface without any problems. Before that, I used to use them old m.facebook. But the thing with the m.facebook was that the interface itself was differently explained in different browsers. So you would get like kind of modern mobile interface in Chrome but if you would use Firefox, you would get the older interface and modern interface would have some more features. Video which the older one didn’t have. And it was. Yeah. But these were overgrown, but, um.
(Tanja) Yeah, sorry but there is also the disadvantage that some options in the mobile Facebook are not even available, you’re not aware that you can use some features because they were just not available or sometimes a service like Messenger was not working in mobile Facebook.
(Hlynur) But it actually was working until I think a few weeks ago.
(Mario) Yes, exactly. Now we know there is no more, yeah.
(Tanja) Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(Hlynur) And some very optimistic people here were asking me if I could just contact Facebook and ask them to put it up again on the mobile version.
(Pawel) Actually Messenger.com is not so bad to use if you turn on…
(Mario) Actually yes. That's what I wanted to say. Yeah.
(Pawel) If you turn on the browsing mode, not browsing mode but the form mode or application mode in the screen reader, you can just use tap shift+tab, up and down arrows, enter and you get anywhere you want, more or less, because you can navigate through the conversations list with your arrow keys and it will tell you that there is an unread message, for example, in a conversation, then you press Enter in the conversation. It will move you to, I think by default, the edit box for writing a message.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Pawel) And if you Shift + Tab, I don't know, one or two times you end up on the list of messages eventually where you can also navigate up and down arrows through the messages and then to the right, I think you'll find all the reaction and the reply and all the actions you can take for that particular message. So it's become really comfortable to use with the browser, but in that mode.
(Hlynur) Yeah, yeah, I think we we’re more or less talking about, like inexperienced users with screen readers. Do you know, well, I was searching the other day, I was searching for like a proper guide with proper instructions how to use screen reader on Facebook. Have you guys seen any of that or is that something that maybe that needs to be made to help, to help people use Facebook with screen reader?
(Mario) The thing is that the whole, I actually first of all, to answer your question, I don't know whether there is only a guide for Facebook or Twitter screen reader users. I don't think so, actually, because the thing is that since the Facebook really changes their interface very frequently.
(Hlynur) Yeah.
(Mario) If you would write down such a little book about it, which would be, I don't know, it's a 50 pages long that would be accurate as long as Facebook doesn't change something and they are changing stuff quite frequently.
(Hlynur) They do like to change. Yeah.
(Mario) Yeah. And this is something that we need to get used to. OK, as we are younger, we can accommodate to that those changes quite fast. And that's OK. The truth is that in order to get around the Facebook, you need to know how to use your screen reader quite efficiently.
(Hlynur) I think it's an interesting topic.
(Tanja) Ok.
Google and Samsung Collaboration on TalkBack (Tanja) Ok, then, there was a development for TalkBack and collaboration with Samsung and Android or Samsung and Google. So would you like to talk about it?
(Pawel) Yes, sure, I could take it over. So this is another CES info, actually, because at the unpacked event of Galaxy 21 and the whole line up of Galaxies for this year, at the end, there was a person from Google who came up at the event and said that Google and Samsung are going to cooperate from now on building a brand new or like a revamped TalkBack experience for blind people. And apparently many of the requested features are going to be added. Then, uh, journalists from XDA Developers portal reached out to Google to ask for some details, like what kind of features are going to be added. And it turned out that they mentioned multi finger gestures, I don't know if they already mean the ones that are already there or there is going to be some more work on that. They mentioned unified menu, so I understand that they want to unify the local conte… and the global menu or make them more co integrated, the ability to customise the menus and the some new reading options. So these are like the sneak peak of what is going to happen. And first, this new TalkBack will be available on the Samsung Galaxy S21. And after some time, it will also come to other devices as an update. And this is quite interesting, because when we mentioned the fact that, uh, Samsung is dropping their voice assistant, they are going back to TalkBack, but it turns out that actually the TalkBack that is on the galaxy phones as of Android 11 is not exactly the Google TalkBack that we know. It's a modified Samsung version of TalkBack, which has some interesting options, but also some options missing.
(Mario) Yeah, pretty much, yes.
(Pawel) And one of the big missing things is the Braille keyboard, sadly, which was only announced in April and now I'm wondering whether this is going to go this way, that Samsung will update the TalkBack and take over the Braille keyboard or Google will somehow, I don't know, go back with this and which I hope will not happen. I don't think it will happen. But well, we have to consider this, seeing what's already there on Samsung, that they will somehow go back with this Braille keyboard and not offer it anymore. Um, but it's definitely to be seen when the S21 comes out, if they keep to, uh, what is in the Galaxies of today, then definitely there will be some granularity options for, uh, typing echo. There is the option to choose characters, characters and words and nothing and so on. Um, yeah, there is a customisation of the menus, from what I know, there is the ability to mute speech without muting the sounds of, uh TalkBack. Which is also quite nice because then you can still navigate and you can still do some things, but you can, for example, mute the speech for meetings so it doesn't accidentally start speaking like, OK your phone is on mute, but suddenly somebody calls you. So still your TTS will start speaking stuff and we wouldn’t like to do that. On iOS, this is this has been there since ever. So it would be good to have it finally here as well. I think from what I heard in some demo of this new Galaxy TalkBack think. There is also the ability that still does not work of all languages to execute certain voice commands, but I'm not sure which ones. And also in the developer section of TalkBack settings on Galaxy, there is some option which says picture recognition so I think there is some work being done on AI and something like the screen recognition feature of IOS 14. But it's not really public yet, as in you can’t test it. There is just this option there. So maybe it's a placeholder for something in the future or maybe they have it disabled for regular users, maybe there's some internal test going on, but there is something happening for sure and it will be really interesting to see in which direction this cooperation goes, and I'm really happy to see that, uh, well, instead of fighting each other, these two companies that had some good ideas, definitely, both of them, because if we remember, like the history, there was this period of silence from Google’s side where there were new versions of TalkBack and this was basically the time where Samsung came out with voice assistant and everybody was like, yay, there is somebody doing something on the Android front that more or less starts to look like iOS with the multi finger gestures and the magic tap and some other options. So Samsung was the sort of accessibility king on the Android side for a bit. And then TalkBack somehow came back into the game, into the game, and Samsung was sort of falling behind. So it's really good to see that those two will now cooperate. And I really hope this will improve both the release cycle. So we will have the updates more often and the quality of it. And hopefully this cooperation will last for some time and will not just be a marketing thing to throw out there.
(Mario) It really was confusing, that situation really started to be confusing at the end of November and beginning of December when people started to receive Android 11 updates on some of the devices, especially S20 phones, because people were saying from all over the globe that they have their phones updated and that in the same time they have a new TalkBack, which is now from Samsung and that they don't have any more of the Braille keyboard on the phone, which was really a huge step back. And Google didn't say a word about it. In the same time, people were saying that they've tried to install the official Google Accessibility Suite from the Play Store, and they couldn't do it on their Samsung phones, which added even more confusion to the home, to the whole pile. And I contacted Google Disability Support about two weeks ago, and the person on the other side told me that they don't have a clue what's happening and that they’d need to make internal investigation about what's going on. And then like a day later, I saw this test announcement about Google and Samsung doing working on the new TalkBack. So I really would like to believe that this will be worked out and that people will receive new, however we want to call it, Samsung Galaxy or Galaxy TalkBack updates, the positive thing about all of this mess is that when people started to receive the updates for the Samsung S20 I was able to find the Galaxy TalkBack exists on the Galaxy store, so that gave me kind of the confidence that I could say that the this will be updated through the Galaxy source or not, the Google Play store. But the Galaxy story, which comes with the basically all the Samsung phones. However, as I'm looking at it now in Europe, if I try to search for a Galaxy TalkBack, again on the Galaxy Store, I'm not able to find it anymore. And maybe that's because it's only, that they kind of made the restrictions that it's able to be seen only from the devices which have Android 11 which makes kind of sense, but yeah, at one point I saw it available on the Galaxy store and now I cannot see it anymore, but I would like to believe that it will, you know, fold in place. And that will be updated, as it should be, because, yeah, eventually this collides with the next news topic, which we have. Tanja, that's the update for Samsung phones, right?
(Tanja) Yeah, you can continue with that one.
Samsung's European Android 11 schedule update (Mario) Yeah. Yeah. So that that collides with the whole updating scale for all the Samsung phones that are able to go for the updates for Android 11, and that there is like, I don't know, 30 phones on the list so my new phone, which I purchased a few months ago as well, so I could see, for example, that my phone is supposed to get Android 11 in March. And Hlynur, you have A70 which would be getting in, would be getting in May.
(Hlynur) Yeah.
(Mario) The update in May. So I really would like to believe that this, you know, all of this mess about TalkBack missing some functions and that it should be updated to the newest version compatible with the official Accessibility Suite will be sorted out until the right time comes, because right now it's really a mess around what's happening. And I think that at this moment, people who have Samsung Galaxy S10 should be getting Android 11 on their phones, so if we have any S10 users on the show who are our listeners and they got the update to Android 11 and if you are using Braille keyboards, please let us know if the keyboard is there or if it's hidden somewhere, it might be possible, I'm not 100 percent sure because I don't have any device for testing nearby, but considering the fact that they really revamped the look and feel of the whole TalkBack, it might be that the keyboard is still there somewhere, but it's hidden maybe under developer settings. Who knows what? Maybe it's really not there but as far as we were being told and it was we could see from the podcasts certainly that for the moment, for the moment, that's not the case. I don't know Pawel, whether you have some extra info.
(Pawel) No, not really, not at the moment, but maybe somebody also manages to get a hold of the new S21, so then we will also know if the TalkBack there is the same as what people have already got on Android 11 or it's something updated.
(Hlynur) Maybe it’s something for a new gadget.
(Pawel) No, I'm fine with my phone for now still, so although it's not receiving 11, but thank you.
(Tanja) Then you say you will receive the update in March?
(Mario) Yeah, I'm supposed to receive the update in March. Whether this is beginning of March or the end of March, I don't know. They don't say the dates. Usually if it goes by the monthly updates to them receiving, then maybe it should be already at the beginning of March, because that's when usually the updates come. But yeah, let's wait and see. I have about a month and something to wait and then we will see what's going on.
(Tanja) So maybe the next episode they will be able to share your experience.
(Mario) Yeah, if I get, absolutely, if I get any news until the next episode, I will be glad to share it with the listeners.
Accessibility posters on mouse pads (Tanja) Ok, and then talking about accessibility stuff, there are some accessibility posters that were shared like a few years ago from UK Home Office and in Iceland, you have a nice project with these posters.
(Hlynur) Yes, we do. We thought that it could be a good idea once I saw these posters just shortly after I started working as a accessibility consultant here. These are like six or seven or eight posters with, like six do's and don'ts in regards to digital accessibility, like what to do and what not to do. And it was just so simple, it was so magnificently well put out, it was like no brainer things, but still something that needed to be mentioned. So we decided to do a top 10 for do's and don'ts in regards to accessibility for blind and visually impaired. We decided to use a top ten because if we wanted to keep it all, it was going to be such a small print that it couldn't have been read. And I don't know, some people might have an issue with us making an accessibility mousepad, which was not accessible.
(Tanja) Mhm, yeah.
(Hlinur) So if I were to describe it for you, I can maybe read out the top 10 also.
(Tanja) Uh-hm.
(Hlinur) We have split it into four columns like two and don't and don't down with five lines. So the first do is like to make buttons descriptive. And we have a picture that's of as a button that says ”Attach file”. And then don't make buttons vague and unpredictable, and then we have a picture of another button that says “Click here”. And we have no idea what it’s going to do if we do that. The second do and don't, do describe images and provide transcripts, like with an all text. And don't only show information in an image or a video. Do structure content using HTML and don't rely on text size and placements for structure. Oh, God, I hate that one. And do follow a linear, logical layout and don't spread content all over the page. The picture there is like, if you have a a 100 percent zoom on your browser, it looks great. But if you go up to a 200 percent zoom, then. You don't see the whole page, you just see the half of it and you have like to scroll down and also scroll to the right to see everything. Do allow users to choose their preferred contact method when booking appointments. And don't make telephone the only means of contact for users because, of course, e-mail suits for some people, but not everyone. Same goes with phone calls and chats and so on. Do make large clickable actions and don't demand precision, there we are talking about like for those who are visually impaired, if you have to click something and it's just a very small dot. I mean, you can't maybe see it, if your hands are shaking, then maybe you will always miss it and so on. Design for keyboard or speech only use and don't make dynamic content that requires a lot of mouse movement. Do use clear, concise language and don't use complicated words or figures of speech. Do break up contact with subheadings images and videos and don't make users read long blocks of text. Do keep content short, clear and simple and don't rely on accurate spelling.Iinstead use suggestions or some kind of other format. So this is what we, just in the beginning, we started making just 100 copies of the mousepad. And the idea was that because I have a lot of meetings and a lot of presentations with many Icelandic companies which are who are working on apps and websites and, and all sorts of equipment. That this is kind of a gift that we give to them, for them to have it before their eyes, once they start working until they go home. And this has been, yeah, people have been very interested in in this project since a few months ago when we released the product first, but of course, shortly after it was ready, then I wasn't allowed to meet anyone in person for a whole year because of some sort of flu which we all know about.
(Tanja and Mario laughing) Yeah.
(Hlynur) But I'm hoping to get it out there in this year, 2021, this will be my year.
(Tanja) Yeah, no, but I think the project is really nice and as I'm also working on accessibility, it's fine on the training when you tell people, you know, you do you do this all this nice stuff and everybody's agreeing, yeah, OK. If that makes the interface more accessible for you, that's fine. But yeah, it's a really logical and then they go back to work and probably they remember only one thing or two things from the 10 or 20 that you mentioned.
(Hlynur) Definitely. It’s a lot of information in a very short time.
(Tanja) Yeah. Yeah. And then this is a really nice reminder because you have it all the time in front of you. So it's great, maybe other companies can do the same or you should start distributing and selling this all over the world, you should patent it.
(Pawel) Yeah, you should. This is your business idea. When you mentioned at the beginning of the show, you have none, you should go international with this, like I'm having your ideas right now.
(Hlynur) Unfortunately, that can't be that can't happen because we can't use this content for a commercial business. But this is something that we would like to give away. And because the posters as well, they are quite good. They have posters for screen reader users, which of course includes Google, for visually impaired, for people with difficulty with hearing and anxiety also. And these posters can, of course, just be used as posters and just printed out. They are stored in GitHub and they have been translated also into a few other languages as well. So if we would maybe provide the link in the description, you should definitely do that.
(Pawel) Is this poster already like pre-formatted for the pad? Because maybe it would be possible if you cannot sell it but people just request this precise poster, uh, with some company like local company that makes gadgets, promo gadgets, that they would print this out on a regular mousepads custom made for you for for the presentation or something.
(Hlynur) Yeah. That it was always on my agenda to, like, release the mousepad format back into GitHub. People are doing that. Those who are translating into French, Spanish, German and many other languages, they are releasing their translations back into GitHub. So everyone is working together, which is quite nice.
(Pawel) So the mouse pad format will be there as well or is it already there?
(Hlynur) I promise you it will be there.
(Pawel) OK, good, good.
(Hlynur) Now I know I've made a promise to everyone, to the whole world.
(Pawel) Great.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Hlynur) It shall be done.
Farewell (Tanja) Ok, and this leads us to the end of this show, so…
(Mario) Really, is it over?
(Tanja) It is over. It is quite long today.
-(Mario growling) Man!
(Tanja) But feel free to contact us.
(Mario) Yeah, we talk a lot. Sorry people. We talk a lot.
(Tanja) Feel free to contact us via email on ebuaccesscast@euroblind.org or at EBU Access Cast on Twitter and share your comments with us or ideas, proposals, demos, if you have, some new interesting gadgets that you would like to share with us. And we will be back in six weeks.
(Mario) Yep, we will be back in six weeks. That's about the fifteenth of March or something like that, because we should be out at the beginning of February with the current episode. So, yes. We would like to say thanks once more to the people who are sending us our contributions for the last episode, we had the Envision glasses from Benjamín. That was great. So, yes, if you have any more contributions. Yeah. Do contact us and we'll be happy to arrange something for you for showing up the product.
(Tanja) Yeah, thank you guys, and talk to you next time.
(Hlynur) Thank you. Bye bye.
(Pawel) Bye.
(Mario and Tanja) Bye.
(Outro)
(Jingle)
Thank you for listening the EBU Access Cast.
If you want to contact us you can send us an e-mail to ebuaccesscast@euroblind.org or find us on Twitter @EbuAccessCast.
Wellcome to the transcribed 27th EbuAccessCast! This episode is the last for 2020, so we prepared nice Goodies for you this time, and we got some new faces in the show as well.
NEW Android Talkback Update (2020): Multi Finger Gestures
Google officially came out with Android 11 about 2 months ago but if you look at the official help pages from Google Accessibility Suite, you will not find anything about new multi fingered gestures, which we think is total shame for Google since this is really a huge forward for android accessibility. However young enthusiasts from Liveaccessible site compiled all the list of multi fingered gestures and they published it on their web site including very nice Youtube presentation. Again, double shame for Google.
Tanja discovered a huge bug in Zoom which is so far undocumented and which appears only if you use screen readers with it. Basically Zoom chrashes if you try to use virtual backround when running JAWS or NVDA, and once the crash appears, it is not visible on the screen for anybody. Tanja also prepared a short demo presentation so everyone can hear it what’s going on. If you encounter the same while using virtual backround with screen readers, inform Zoom about it so we get the bugfix soon.
Microsoft Teams should have Slack and Zoom on alert with its latest update
Yeah that's right, Teams is pushing forward very much and it is very accessible, even more than Zoom from Mario’s opinion and Microsoft just added the possibility of using your private Microsoft account with it.
Google is coming out with a new interesting thing called Project Guideline
If you are into sports, or better to say running specifically, this piece of news will be very much interesting for you.
There is also a video about the project which shows what's exactly going on. Again, unfortunately not audio described, even though it is related to blind people directly. Again we think that Google should really better promote its products and build better structure when accessibility is included.
This Device Lets Blind Women Take Pregnancy Tests in Privacy
All of us who are in the team of EEBU Access Cast think that this is a great step forward for raising awareness about the rights of blind women, and we support the idea 100%. Let’s hope that in the not far future we will start to see Pregnancy Tests as a standard offers in every pharmacy!
Playstation 5 decided to surprise all the gamers with accessibility news: They have expanded their screen reader to support the most wide-spread European languages, there is also now an accessible first-time running wizard that lets you pick the accessibility options you need and your preferences carry across all of the experience so if you tick a need for audiodescription in the settings, you'll get it everywhere it's available E.G> in games, on Netflix etc.
If you’re wondering how it sounds in a real demonstration, than check out the following youtube video.
A new interesting product called envision Glasses just started to hit the market. Thankfully to our listeners we got a very nice demo contribution from MR. Benjamin Hofer from Germany.
2020, was quite ruff year for all of us, but we were able to go thru it, and therefore we will be back with you in 2021 even better than we were so far. So, in the name of whole crew we wish you safe and healthy holidays, stay safe, and send us comments and suggestions on our email and Twitter when ever you have the time!
Transcript of EBU Access Cast - episode 27 Introduction (jingle)
This programme is financially supported by the fundings from the European Commission.
You are listening to the EBU Access Cast. The first official podcast from European Blind Union about assistive technology for blind and partially sighted people.
And here are the hosts.
(Mario) Welcome, welcome to the 27th episode of the EBU Access Cast. My name is Mario Perčinić, I'm coming to you from Luxembourg and I have with me a bunch of my friends and some new guests in the show.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we travelled away up to the North Pole because we have a new person in the show, so let's wish him a warm welcome from us, hello to Hlynur Þór… and what was your last name? Hahahaha.
(Hlynur) Hlynur Þór Agnarsson
(Mario) Yeah. Welcome.
(Hlynur) Thank you very much. Nice to be here.
(Mario) Yeah, it's the first time we have the Icelander in the podcast.
(Hlynur) I'm glad to be your first.
(Mario) Actually, we also contributed some long time ago with Birkir Gunnarsson.
(Hlynur) Yeah, a good friend of mine.
(Mario) Yeah, who is in the States, hello to Birkir.
(Hlynur) Busy man.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, and except Hlynur we have Tanja from Luxembourg, hello.
(Tanja) Hello Mario, hello everyone.
(Mario) Bart from Belgium. Hello Bart.
(Bart) Hello everyone.
(Mario) And Pawel from… where are you now…? Austria.
(Pawel) Hahaha. From Poland in Austria. Yes, hello.
(Mario) How is it going in this cold and contagious times?
(Tanja) Luckily we have Internet.
(Mario) Yeah, that’s true.
(Pawel) Just wanted to say, if it wasn't for Zoom, it would be quite lonely.
(Mario) Ooooh.
(Tanja) Yeah, and online shopping, you know, it would be really difficult. Now, it's quite easy with this. I mean, it helps.
(Mario) Absolutely.
(Hlynur) Have you finished buying all your Christmas presents?
(Mario) No, actually, we didn't start. But yesterday it was Black Friday, by the way.
(Hlynur) Yeah, I finished before Black Friday even. Mostly I’ve bought online.
(Mario) Yeah. Yeah. Anybody got some new gadgets this month?
(Tanja) Well, yes, I bought a new laptop.
(Mario) Really?!
(Tanja) Because my old laptop was already 6 years old, even though it was still working more or less OK, but as it was old, some features were not well supported. And 1 of them was that with the old laptop, I couldn't use the virtual background on Zoom, which is quite helpful if you’re giving presentations on Zoom. So this was maybe the last reason where I decided, no, I need to buy a new laptop. And, I decided to buy an HP, 15,6 inches from the series Omen 15. It is quite powerful. It has I9 processor and 32 gigabytes of DDR RAM.
(Mario) What?!
(Pawel) Wow.
(Bart) Hehe, well done.
(Tanja) I wanted a really powerful laptop. I wanted that it flys and I have a plane.
(Pawel) Are you going to be a gamer now with such a powerful equipment?
(Tanja) Almost.
(Mario) I think it is a gaming machine.
(Tanja) It is a gaming machine.
(Pawel) That’s what I thought.
(Tanja) But I wanted to powerful laptop. So, then I have it. It has 512 SSD disk plus 1 terabyte of SATA disk, which is much more compared to what I had in the previous laptop because the other one had only SSD disk with much, much less capacity.
(Tanja) But, there is a small issue that I encountered, I hope that it will be fixed now. The laptop was restarting from time to time on its own, and it restarted in moments it didn't had to. So I hope it is fixed. We found out that it may happen on Omen models of HP, maybe because of graphical card, but at the moment I'm really not sure what is the cause. So I hope I will not restart at one point during the recording. But besides this, it's amazing. It's really amazing. It's 2,6 kg heavy which for aluminium and 15 inches is fine. It's larger compared to my old laptop. I had the 12 inch laptop before. So while it's bigger, but it's convenient because it has numpad as part of the keyboard.
(Mario) Oh yeah. That’s good when you’re using a screen reader.
(Tanja) It is convenient for us, for the insert, for the numbers. OK, depending what you want on the keyboard, but it's very convenient for us.
(Bart) How about the arrow keys? Because I see the tendency that up and down arrow keys are using the same space as left and right. And I think I will have a hard time getting used to that. How about yours?
(Tanja) Mine is standard.
(Bart) Also something I would look for in it.
(Mario) But it’s a good question. I mean, Bart raised a good question because for example, I have the HP machine, which is from 2017 and it also belongs to the gamer's laptop, but it's Pavilion's series and its up and down keys for the arrows are, let's say, a little bit squashed, which I got used to it in 2 days, but maybe 1 day at the beginning it seems like yeah, it could be a problematic. But after a day you get used to it.
(Bart) Even if you used a different machine at work or...
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(Bart) Ah, OK. I think I would have a hard time switching.
(Mario) But let's, let's say that, for example, when you would put the 2 of… Actually it is like that. So when you put up and down keys together, they are the size of another key. So it's like half of the keys up and half of the keys down. But this is on my machine, I think on Tanja’s machine…
(Tanja) No, mine is standard. And I don't have another key close to the arrow keys, which is also convenient because it is like on the standard keyboard. I don't have a right control key.
(Mario) Which is kind of becoming standard today.
(Tanja) Yeah, well, I have less and greater on that key.
(Hlynur) I think I've never, ever used the right control in my life.
(Bart) Control + a I think I would use it then.
((Mario) Hahaha yeah.
(Bart) Control + a, control + c, I think I use the right one.
(Mario) Yeah. But you can do it with your left hand.
(Bart) I'm sure you can. Yeah.
(Hlynur) But there's a beautiful thing in having the numpad on your laptop.
(Mario) Sure. Yeah.
(Hlynur) I usually have it when I buy laptops for myself since I am visually impaired. So I'm usually looking at around 17 inch laptops which makes picking(???) one much easier for me since there are not that many around. But my work laptop is what I think it's 10 Latitude, something like that. 15,6 inch. And of course, I use external keyboard and mouse and 2 23 inch screens while working. But I sure do miss the numpad when I'm working at home.
(Tanja) Yeah, well, for me now, it's a luxury to have also the numpad, because I did not have it for 6 years previously. So now I suddenly have a bigger keyboard, but, well, I don't have the right Windows Key, which is also becoming a standard to not have it.
(Bart) The application key.
(Tanja) Yeah, the application key. Well, for the rest, the home and page up, page down are used in combination with the fn and the keys are well separated like on a standard keyboard. So the keyboard is very pleasant, the keys are well separated, the keys are not attached so that is difficult to distinguish, you know, blocks of F keys or numpad.
I think it's a good choice. I really like the laptop. The most important it is very, very fast. And I hope it will not crash again.
(Pawel) Can you actually see that? Because it's a gaming laptop and it's so powerful your assistive technology runs faster with it?
(Tanja) Well, you know, everything runs faster.
(Pawel) OK, fair enough.
(Tanja) Compare to my old laptop it has a much powerful processor and the ram and everything. I'm not sure regarding specifically screen readers because everything runs faster, including Screen readers. So even when I'm starting, for example, JAWS that on the previous laptop would need like 15 seconds or so here it starts much faster. If I'm entering a heavy page full of videos and pictures now, it just opens like a Notepad.
(Pawel) Oh. That’s great.
(Mario) Hahaha. That's a cool thing when you have enough resources absolutely.
(Tanja) Yeah. I noticed, for example, that when I switched to my current machine from the laptop that I used to have before, which didn't have SSD and it had just 4 gigs of RAM, which was OK for that time. But yeah, when I went to the SSD machine… Pfff, yeah, man, the things started flying around so I can yeah, I can just imagine. I was reading also that those Hps also have quite cool design in the cooling system, so the air is blowing from different sides.
(Tanja) Yeah, exactly. It has the fan on the right of the laptop and on the back. Well, it's much larger compared to what they had before, probably because it uses so much…
(Mario) Yeah, it's much more powerful machine.
(Hlynur) Is it less noisy? Because how large it is?
(Tanja) Well, it is more noisy compared to my previous… But normally it is not using the full fan all the time. Only when you are loading something that takes more resources. But normally it's not noisy.
(Mario) All right, so congratulations on your new purchase.
(Tanja) Yeah, well, I think I will not have any Christmas purchases. Yeah, it was quite expensive, but I'm really happy.
(Mario) Nice. That's cool. Anybody else two report?
(Bart) I so far could resist, despite all the Black Friday emails trying to make you buy things, I think I should have a new iPhone because I'm still loving iPhone 6, which is going only to iOS version 12. Yeah. Now, on one hand, it's still running fine. I still go even if I never change the battery. I still can get through the day with the battery.
(Tanja) Wow.
(Bart) So on one hand, yeah, there are of course interesting improvements in iOS 14 that I don't have. But can I live without them? I think yes. So I'm in a doubt, but there is no compelling reason at the moment to replace it.
(Hlynur) Of course, even though you can live without them, it doesn't mean you have to.
(Mario) Yeah, of course.
Actually I ordered a new headset for me, but it's not here yet, so I cannot say anything about it. It will arrive next week. And if everything runs fine, then I will have something to report for the next podcast. But yeah, I ordered for Black Friday the new Aftershokz Aeropex which are the newest bone conduction headphones from the aftershocks and one of the reasons why I ordered them was because people said that finally the issue with usage in the VoIP services such as Skype or whatever we are using now teams, these headsets works fine because it's a Bluetooth 5 compatible. So it should be running fine. But I'm waiting to see how we run for real. And yeah, they're saying also that it has now magnetic charging for it instead of the USB and some things relating to design and the projection of the base and stuff is much better than the previous ones. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to see, but, yeah, more about it in the next episode, probably.
Ok, so after we did our gadgets corner for the beginning, let's jump into the news section and see what we have for this episode.
Accessibility in the news. Android Talkback Update (2020): Multi Finger Gestures Mario: And for this episode, the first. Thing comes from Google or to see from one small company called Live Accessible. They are based in the states who actually compiled the list of all the Multi finger gestures for TalkBack, which just have been released 2 months ago. So eventually once and I'm really happy to see that somebody finally came up with those gestures and a very cool YouTube video, because unfortunately, Google didn't come up with the official explanation for the whole thing related to the. Multi finger gestures in Android 11, which is reallyreally ashame.
Hlynur: I cannot imagine why they wouldn't brag themselves about this one.
Bart: You would think they are proud of having them now?
Hlynur: Yeah, you would think so.
Mario: The thing is that I honestly think as I'm the Android user and I pretty much agree that this is something that we were really waiting for a long, long time. And this is one of the best accessibility improvements in the next. It was a long time since we got something such a revolution.
Pawel: Yeah.
Hlynur: And we're also catching up with iOS on a lot of things, that's for sure.
Mario: And right now, when you look at this list of those gestures and the functions that you can do, you can really see that Android is now very next to the iOS in terms of usability. However, for unknown reason in the official Google help pages from theAndroid Accessibility Suite, you cannot find anything about it, which is a total shame for Google. Guys Come on.
Pawel: they take their sweet time to catch up quite often. If you look at how often the code base of TalkBack on GitHub is updated, even though they made some kind of declaration, it's going to be open source. It's not like they abandon it. It's more like every once in a while they come up with, OK, we have this GitHub repository, OK, we should probably update it and then you have it. And then it's it's not like they develop on this repo, and you see all the changes come in. It's just like every once in a while, once the production cycle is over for a certain version.
Mario: Yeah.
Pawel: The will update it. And I have a sad feeling there might be a similar thing going on with the help pages.
Mario: It might be, but it still it does not bring justice.
Pawel: Now, of course, we just know it doesn't have to explain. It points to the source of the problem. Yeah.
Mario: I mean, what's really interesting is that, you know, somebody who's totally unaffiliated to Google took its time, did the proper video and did the really good HTML presentation of all the gestures. What did they do? How do they work and stuff like that. And Google didn't find the time to do that. I mean, come on, guys, that that's not OK. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, absolutely.
Hlynur: But nice work,
Mario: but nice work from the guys from accessible. Absolutely. So, yeah. If you're up On getting an Android 11 and you were wondering what to do. Check out the link in our shownotes for the liveaccessible website site and all the gestures.
Pawel: There is also because we mentioned that there are some additional options also coming, like the stopping and starting of multimedia content. And now it turns out I saw a thread on Audiogames forum. One of the users got a hold of Android 11 and there are some more undocumented features to,
Mario: no way what?
Pawel: For example, there is a gesture that lets you pass through the next gesture out of the accessibility services.
So if you want to perform that, just.
Mario: Yeah, that's what that's the 4 finger thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Pawel: And also the the selector was redesigned and now if you use the selector you can set every point of the granularity options as a separate thing. It's not like one granularity option. There are just different granularity options that you can switch between where its characters lines language because language is a new option as well. And.
Mario: speech rate.
Pawel: Yeah, exactly. So it's not like one granularity and the gestures just to the different levels of it. You can just put the granularity options individually in the selector as you want.
And also the language is finally there so you can change languages on the fly and you can also switch the screen curtain on the fly, the dim screen.
Mario: Yeah, so I mean, this is this is what I was saying earlier, this is really becoming very, very similar to the iOS. Now eventually this is very similar to the Rotor options.
Pawel indeed.
Mario: So, yeah, well, actually, I cannot wait for my Samsung to be updated to theAndroid 11, which should be soon. But yeah, I don't know, maybe I'll get it for, for Christmas.
Pawel: My Motorola will not be I'm pretty certain but. Well that's something to look out for, for the next phone I get.
Yeah.
Hlynur: So May I ask?
Mario: Yeah sure.
Hlynur: Ok, so I'm at work since I've been using Screen reader, JAWS for probably a year now, but I don't use them regularly for myself, this is TalkBack that we're talking about. And now I have a Samsung and I've been using voice assistant instead of TalkBack just because I had to start somewhere.
And this was just. The voice was above the TalkBack, so I turned on the voice assistant, would you recommend for me who is, as I said, not using, but I'm doing accessability researches on certain apps and certain pages through mobile phone. Would you recommend to using Bose or just switching over to TalkBack with those new finger gestures?
Mario: Yeah. May I ask you which, which exactly phone do you have.
Hlynur: I have the Samsung Galaxy. A 7 0.
Mario: A 70 yeah, 70 is one of the phones that probably will get updates to Android 11. And in the previous episode we were talking about that all Samsung devices, which will get updates to. Android 11 will be updated also with the new TalkBack, which will replace the VoiceOver, so there will be no more Voice assistant.
It's going to retirement.
Hlynur: So, yeah, you don’t need need to choose anymore.
Mario: No, you will not need to choose anymore and basically all the things that we just talked about. Will apply also for the old Samsung devices, which will go through Android 11 so yeah.
Bart: it's good to know it's unfortunate for the existing users, but for your testing, it will be easier. Yeah.
“Everyone laughs”.
Hlynur: So I might just switch now.
Mario: You will be forced anyway, so, yeah, so if you want to just get some practising, yeah, it would be wise to switch earlier and get familiar. So, you know, when the time comes that you don't get lost.
Hlynur: I guess that you now know what I be doing for Christmas. Yeah. Yeah.
Zoom has a nasty bug for screen readers (Mario) All right, so after we talked about some new things for the Android, Tanja discovered something really interesting and that's unfortunate for Zoom and that's basically a bug.
It's a Zoom bug that is even not documented yet. I tried also searching around on the Zoom tickets and I couldn't find it. Googling also doesn't bring it up, even though the bug is happening to almost everybody, and it's the thing connected to the ...
(Tanja) ... to the screen reader.
(Mario) To the screen reader and the thing is that Zoom is reproducing some error when you're trying to use the virtual background.
[Music]
(Tanja) This is the demo for the Zoom bug.
When you are using a screenreader, JAWS or NVDA, and the virtual background when the video is turned on. I will open Zoom now.
(Jaws) Start window, Zoom app, Zoom window, starting a new meeting with video on button.
(Tanja) And go in the settings to see where you can change the virtual background.
(Jaws) Setting button.
(Tanja) You go in settings from the main window of Zoom.
(Jaws) Settings window, list, general selected.
(Tanja) I tabbed, and the first option is General.
(Jaws) Video selected, audio selected, share screen selected, chat selected, background and filters selected.
(Tanja) Background and filter is the option that we select with the space bar.
(Jaws) Background and filter selected. Cancel button, Ok button.
(Tanja) And immediately already there, because I have the virtual background already selected, I have this error popping up that doesn't read anything. It's only OK and cancel.
(Jaws) Cancel button, OK button.
(Tanja) So I will press insert+B to try to read more.
(Jaws) This dialog. Ok button, Zoom window, system menu bar contains commands to manipulate the window, alt plus ...
(Tanja) And it says AOMHost but actually NVDA says Aomhost. But when JAWS is enabled it tells something different. Again, a message that doesn't make any sense. So I will go to ok.
(Jaws) Cancel button, ok button.
List, this dialog, ok button.
(Tanja) It pops up again. I will press again Ok.
(Jaws) List, this dialog, Ok button
(Tanja) And again Ok.
(Jaws) List, background and filter selected
(Tanja) And it disappears. So it always appears 3 times. I will tab to go through the settings of the virtual background.
(Jaws) Rotate 90 degrees button. Virtual backgrounds tab selected checked.
(Tanja) So it is selected.
(Jaws) Add image or video button.
(Tanja) I have an option "add image or video". I selected image.
(Jaws) List, background IDPC annual plenary meeting selected.
(Tanja) And here I have the name of the image that is selected. It happens the same with any image, even with the default images from Zoom. It is absolutely the same.
Ok, so I will go back
(Jaws) Setting button.
(Tanja) and start a meeting
(Jaws) Starting a new meeeting with video on button. Ok button, cancel button.
(Tanja) And then again.
(Jaws) You are using the computer audio alert. Ok button.
(Tanja) We have this annoying pop up, I will this time, I will press Cancel.
(Jaws) You are in a meeting, ok button. Cancel Button. Return on this dialog. Ok button, cancel button
(Tanja) And cancel.
(Jaws) Zoom window, return to meeting button. Schedule button. This dialog. Ok button,
(Tanja) Ok, here it is again.
(Jaws) Cancel button. Schedule button.
(Tanja) If you All+tab and come back into Zoom, it will disappear. But again, if this error message appears, the video is unstable and the virtual background unfortunately appears and disappears. And if you select a virtual background and you expect that it works, it is somehow unexpected that others, the others see suddenly you will without background. So it makes the video unstable unfortunately. And the way how to avoid it, is to turn off the screen reader. Learn the steps, how to activate the video without the screen reader and then turn the screen reader back again. This is the workaround that I used and it worked, but it is quite tricky. So for the moment, we can complain to Zoom and hope that this will be fixed as soon as possible.
[Music]
(Tanja) Yeah. So if you want, I can explain?
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) Yeah. So I discovered the bug at the same moment when my laptop arrived. So I also did not suspect in Zoom that there is a bug in Zoom that gives error when you're using a virtual background and screen reader at the same time. If you're not using virtual background and you have without it, it it will not pop up this error. But if you have a screen reader with a virtual backround and the video on. In the moment when you activate the video or when it is activated by itself, there is an error that is not even visible on the screen. So it was really difficult for me to discover what is causing this issue. I was thinking also is the graphical card from my new laptop. It's some drivers, it's it's whatever. But then at the end it was Zoom. We discovered it also on Mario's laptop, the same. And it happens in the last update from Zoom in the last version. And there is no way how you can avoid it. It happens with JAWS and NVDA. A workaround is to turn off the screen reader and activate the video and turn on the screen reader again. The problem of this error is not only that it pops up and it gives you an Ok and cancel button and then you press either of them ok or cancel and then it pops up again. You press it again, it pops up again. So it's really annoying. It also makes unstable your video. So on the other side, people will see you with the background, without, with the background, without. So it will change by its onw without any
(Mario) with no explanation actually. Yeah.
(Tanja) Without any changes on your side. So it's, it's pretty annoying and it's inconvenient for us when you are delivering a presentation and you're not aware if you have a background or no. And also this annoying dialogue. So we, we have to report this to Zoom because it's it's impossible that it happens just like this with the screen reader and with the virtual background.
(Mario) Yeah. As Tanja mentioned, I also tested the things on my machine, which is like 3,5 years old. And it does happen on my machine as well. However, why is it only difficult not to spot it is because if you have virtual backgrounds turned off, your video will start and stop without any errors and there will be no problem. However, once you decide to use the virtual background, yeah, then you are starting to have a problem. And I thought at the beginning when we noticed that, maybe it's a local thing, and we were asking a few friends who connected remotely, but they couldn't see it on the screen. And we were like, OK, maybe it's a remote thing? I had a friend of mine here and he was also not able to see and it was OK, this is really bizarre and the screen readers are detecting something, but, yeah, eventually.
It's kind of tricky thing and it's really sad that it helps only if you're running screen reader and as I was saying, the bug is not documented yet.
So we'll have to raise the issue.
(Bart) It is surprising that ... it is good that you tested it with and JAWS and NVDA. We know they use a different method of accessing the screen information. So, um.
(Tanja) Yeah, yeah, well, and it's really inconvenient because you think, OK, once you access a meeting, you activate the video once and it's fine. But if you're in a meeting where they use breakout rooms, your video stops and starts automatically. Again you will have this error message. And when you are going back from the breakout room to the main session again this error. So it's pretty annoying.
(Bart) I've never tried to set a virtual background, but I understand why you would want it to work. Yeah.
(Tanja) Well, yes, it's pretty convenient in the professional environment. You don't want others to see your place. We are all working from home. So, I mean, why not?
But then of course, it shouldn't give you these errors, and invisible errors, even worse. So it's difficult then to discover what is the issue. But actually it is a bug.
(Mario) Yeah, Pawel, did you notice that as well on your side?
(Pawel) I have a feeling I tried the virtual background some time ago, like a month or 2. I'm not sure if that really worked.
(Tanja) No, no, at that time, it was not the case because actually one of the reasons why I decided to buy a new laptop was one of them, the virtual background, and I tested it on another laptop and it worked perfectly. So I said, yeah, this works fine. You know, it's really the time to have a new laptop. So it's 2 weeks now.
(Pawel) Ok, that must be pretty new. I haven't checked it yet, but I will need to do that. Maybe we'll find a workaround.
(Mario) Yeah. Just one thing came up to my mind right now, but that's just a question of internal testing to see whether it works. Because both screen readers, JAWS and NVDA have a sleep mode. So I'm wondering if this error will come up, if you just enable the sleep mode so you don't need to toggle the screen reader completely off.
(Tanja) Oh, it's almost, it's almost the same. I mean, you don't hear it.
(Mario) Sure, you don't hear it, but the screen reader stays kind of active in the system, so I'm wondering whether this error will appear or not. This is just one.
(Tanja) Well, it's still a work around that we have to do to avoid this error.
(Bart) It shouldn't be necessary to do this.
(Mario) Yeah. Yeah,
(Tanja) yeah. Yeah. Well. We have to report
(Mario) We need to report it
(Tanja) Absolutely. And if you notice this too on your side, report it as well so that Zoom makes the change.
(Mario) Zoom knows what to do.
Microsoft Teams should have Slack and Zoom on alert with its latest update Mario: Ok, so since we are on the virtual chat platforms another news is saying that Microsoft teams should have Slack and Zoom on alerts with these latest updates.
Now, why is that? Well, because Microsoft is really pushing forward with the development of many of their software and teams is being one of them. It's being very much used since the beginning of the pandemic's. I started, for example, professionally using it at work as well, so I'm pretty much using it on the daily basis for the last 6 to 7 months. Or even longer. Yeah, and I remember when it was the beginning of 2020, Microsoft said that during the later time of the year, they will also allow usage of the teams from the personal Microsoft accounts, because before you would need to have the office 365 account associated with things that you are able to use it. And since like 2 weeks ago, they deployed new updates and new updates also allow you to use your personal Microsoft account. So if you have a Skype account that you're using or whatever, that's also your Microsoft account. So you can safely log into your teams and chat with the other teams users similarly to what we were doing basically on Skype. And from what I, I do know, this is just my initial guess, But I think that Microsoft is going to replace Skype at some time, at least Skype for business is going to disappear for sure. This is no longer going to be in development because teams is replacing Skype. However, what I have to say is that even on the mobile phones from the Android side and on the windows side, the accessibility of Teams is amazing. I don't know if some of you are using it also, but I have to say that it's really nice to see that the programme is really responding with Screen reader and I don't see myself the reason why should I use an extra scripts for Teams if I if I need to or whatever everything is being read out loud. You can get to the, you know, information that you need.
Bart: You're using the client or the web based the
Mario: I am using the the clients?
I've used the Web based version as well, but I'm using the clients on the phone and on the machines.
Bart: I use it occasionally. And as you say, I almost hear no one anymore being using Skype to Skype or even like a verb.
Let's Skype, which is a bit harder with less teams maybe.
“Everyone laughs”.
Bart: But yeah, but yeah, I think that that Skype might disappear.
Pawel: There is a Skype business somewhere.
Yeah. But as I said, yeah. Skype business will go away. It is being replaced by teams, that's definitely
Bart: what you can see they really wanted to have it die out.
Mario: Yeah.
Pawel: Just to implement a telephony part where you can actually integrate the teams with your PBX or with your telephone lines, the traditional telephone lines.
Hlynur: Yeah, it's some time now since they said that they were switching Skype for business and for teams that was working for about the phone here in Iceland for 7 years.
And I think it's about maybe 2 years ago when when we started switching out from Skype, the business to Teams, OK, and using Teams more and more.
Mario: Ok,
Tanja: teams has also much more functionalities comparing to Skype.
Mario: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Tanja: So I see why it replaces Skype.
Hlynur: It's a logical step.
Tanja: Yeah. Yeah. And yeah. And for us it's convenient because we can share also audio with the screen which we couldn't do with Skype or we could just share on the screen there and for our for showing our screen reader. It's very convenient. And you can also give remote assistance to someone overthinks.
Mario: Yeah. Which is a really nice feature for example, especially now when you cannot get physical help from somebody you can. If there are some situations and let's be honest, like if you're blind and have any kind of disability, you will, you know, sooner or later encountered some problem where you will need help from somebody and the fact that you can use it. You use the teams to do that now. Yeah, it's really simple how you can do that and it's effective.
Bart: So I'm using this to zoom in and I'm happy to hear that it works now with things as well. Yeah, very useful.
Pawel: I tried the private part of the of teams where you look in your private account. I actually discovered it by accident because I was giving a workshop on teams and at some point my participants and I, we couldn't really find each other to add to the organisation I founded for the workshop. And we were wondering what the problem is. And then it turned out that somebody was locked in with a private entity.
And they weren't receiving any requests whatsoever, and they had to somehow look in the email or re-login, and then I discovered that you actually can switch between your organisation sort of side of things and the private one, which is sort of a nice metaphor for like switching off from your work life and switching over to the private life and vice versa so they don't get mixed up. But I really regret that there are so many features missing from the private version of teams. For instance, I really like the way the messages are threaded in conversations on the teams for actual teams. Well, you just navigate from the messages up and down, up and down until you find a new thread and, then you click enter and the thread expands in its own sort of interface and you just watch the replies to that one thread. And when you think of all the Facebook groups, AR, WhatsApp groups, that, for example, in different countries, blind people are formed by blind people to, for example, serve technical support or exchange ideas, exchange advice on technology. Nowadays, a lot of people use WhatsApp for that, or Facebook, which Facebook is still better than WhatsApp. But it's a lot of mess with people discussing everything all over the place. And it's difficult to keep the structure and keep things in separate threads. So to make the old good mailing list a bit more modern and instant message like, and on Teams, this is perfect, except it only works in the organisational setting, not in the private one, which I think is a pity because the interface is there. It works great with Screen readers, you can expand and collapse the threads, but it's not there in the private version.
Mario: But I think that this is something that it could be reported to Microsoft. And, you know, there are people over there who are reading the stuff.
Pawel: So if they find it a priority to add, they think this is relevant for like private communication because maybe they have a different. But definitely you can we can report it You can report it, and maybe they listen.
Hlynur: Definitely see them adding this to the personal profile.
Pawel and Mario: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Hlynur: I cannot see why not. Yeah,
Mario: no, no thumbs up for for teams, absolutely. I this is this is one of the software that was kind of on the new list of things I started using during 2020. And when you find the piece of software that is in the same time accessible for us, that's, you know, 2 plus 2 plus up. So, yeah, congrats to Microsoft.
Pawel: It may just look a bit scary for new users because it's a bit big. And when you navigate with either tab so you can navigate in 2 ways, either with tab, shift tab like a normal app or like a Web page. And for me, at least at the beginning, it was quite scary. Also, if you don't use the English version, but like I use the Polish translation, I couldn't figure out what all the buttons and options are about. Maybe, maybe just the translations fault. But it seems pretty huge to me. And this was like a feeling a lot of my friends shared when they called me asking for advice or support. This is so big. I would, with Zoom if you have a good guidance on where things are, you can quickly figure it out here. There is a lot of like toolbars, tabs, lists, headings, edit fields. And I think a good place to start is pressing control dot or control period and reading through the shortcut keys because at the beginning they would really help you reach the most strategic areas of the app quicker.
Mario: yeah, even though there is a really, really good accessible guidelines on the Microsoft page
Pawel: that too.
Mario: which is explaining how to use it. And I agree that when you start using Teams at the beginning, it can get kind of confusing. Let's see. And there is some time for transition that that's what I.
Hlynur: I totally agree and I think that they probably know about that as well, that people are people are a bit overwhelmed when first using Teams. I know. I was also so it took me a while to get into it, but the pandemic surely helped me to use Teams much more because it was necessary.
But we held our General Assembly last October now at the Icelandinc Association for the Visually Impaired, and we were choosing which programme we would use since we couldn't come together.
Mario: Yeah,
Hlynur: we decided on Zoom instead of Teams because of Actually, how simple it was, it wasn't overwhelming at all.
We had to have good, good experience with it.
It was just like 4 or 5 shortcuts that people needed to know to, like, raise their hand.
Mario: Yeah, sure, yeah.
Hlynur: And mute or mute. So we chose Zoom for that.
Mario: No, no.
Bart: I think the trouble is not that Applications are today totally inaccessible, I'm sure that Google Meat can be used, Teams can be used to, but we will need some time of familiarisation with the new interface and we need to learn shortcuts. And it's just annoying that if you have in the morning a meeting withTeams, then in the afternoon, one with Google Meet and then maybe for your leisure time in the evening, one with Zoom, that's for me a bit heavy to memorise all the different interfaces and
Hlynur: and you have go to webinar,
Bart: go back, connect.
“Everyone laughs”.
Bart: So I'm a big fan of Zoom, but that's mostly because we chose it to use it on a daily basis. And of course, what you what you use a lot is what you like and what you know well. But I'm absolutely happy that all the other platforms can be accessible as well. But this switching, I think for a sighted person, this is not so difficult. They kind of recognise easily where things are on the screen and it goes relatively fast. But for us to have to memorise all the shortcuts and they update also quite frequently nowadays, of course, so many feature requests. And so to keep up with the different platforms, that that's not so easy.
Hlynur: Also, what I love about in Teams is that when you have a meeting, let's say it's a staff meeting or a larger meeting between a few different organisations, is the automatic creation of a conversation in the chat with all the participants in the meeting.
So you can then discuss with all those who were partaking in the meeting if you forgot something or you have any links or the slides that you wanted to share afterwards and you have a already made conversation with those people and very much like that feature.
Also how simple it is Ok, yeah, it is like you were talking about how to change between accounts because I have my account with the my association and I'm also a guest in the Teams of the national institution. And it's very easy for me to switch between those 2 accounts, even though it's on the same email address.
Pawel: Can you actually already, because I think they had a plan about this, invite external people to your Teams meetings. So, for example, you having an external expert at the conference who you just would like to pop in for an hour to give a lecture, but then you don't want them in the team anymore?
I think that this should be available.
Tanja: yes yes
Hlynur: Yes, this is listen, we have been having external contacts at Teams meetings. I did, however, have a problem that I couldn't I couldn't call anyone except for within my organisation, through Teams.
Pawel: Mm hmm.
Pawel: But than you need to invite them as a part of the organisation. Or you can just invite them for one meeting in the organisation.
Hlynur: I think you have I think you can invite them as a guest, but does that expire at any time? I'm not sure. So what I actually did, too, was that I instead of just calling, I created a meeting with them and that worked. But it's kind of a weird workaround. If I can have a meeting with whoever I want, why can I call someone also?
Pawel: Mm hmm.
I think the mobile apps are quite a nice starter as well, if you feel a bit overwhelmed by the desktop app and you're in a panic situation, like suddenly out of the blue, you were asked to come into a job interview on Teams you have never used before or your professor is expecting you at a lecture at 8:00 in the morning, sharp on Teams and, you never used Teams before, think the mobile apps are a bit easier with the interface if you really need to get grips to grips with this fast.
Mario: Absolutely, yes,
Hlynur: and especially and I think it's definitely also the case, they probably will add some features to the personal accounts on Teams later on. They I think they probably don't want to overwhelm users in the beginning, like we all probably felt like when we first started using Teams within organisations.
Mario: Yeah, yeah. And for example, my phone is officially licenced to use Teams, Samsung did that with Microsoft. So what's really nifty is, are they on my phone? I have a push to talk for teams.Yeeeeahh!!!
Pawel: that's cool.
Mario: Yeah, that's it's, it's interesting. So yeah, if I'm on the phone and I need to drop into the meeting, it's cool to have.
Project guideline from Google (Mario) So after we did our virtual chit chat, it's time to go to the nature for some run if we want to, but if you have a disability which is connected to the visual impairment, then you might have some obstacles on the way and that might be the problem. However, it looks like that situation might change and that some things could improve on that front because Google is coming up with the project guideline. It's a very new thing. And the project guideline is a piece of technology which works on your smartphone and basically what it does is that, from my understanding, is that it's able to catch the guideline on the floor when if you're running and then it's giving you the audio indications if you are on the track or off the track. Actually, there's a video description, there will be a video in our show notes for that, but I think, Hlynur, you saw the video about it and you said that you are a runner as well. So you could tell us what's going on there.
(Hlynur) Yeah, I do run, but I wouldn't call myself a professional runner.
(Mario) But you ran a marathon and I didn't so.
(Hlynur) Yeah, I ran a full marathon last year. My first, but hopefully my last. What I found very interesting about this and very exciting is that you had a blind runner who hadn't been able to run by himself for over 20 years. And this technology made it possible for him to do so, and it was a very emotional moment, also for me, because I love in the evening to go out for a run. I live in the, like the suburbs of Reykjavik, so I have to run for like 5 minutes and then I‘m out of the city and I can run past lakes and through woods and just being alone, exercising, it feels good. And so this opens up a possibility for, I think, many people to really enjoy running, because sometimes you would like to do it by yourself.
(Pawel) Yeah.
(Bart) This guideline is then something which is pre-recorded and you can follow it?
(Hlynur) No, I think you use your mobile phone, you strap it with a belt on your stomach. And I think it's using the camera to detect.
(Mario) Yeah, that must use the camera for sure.
(Hlynur) Yeah, yeah. It's using the camera. They always have those painted guidelines. But I think what they're trying to do is they're trying to detect the pavement or it might not even be concrete.
It might be just a path in the woods. I think they're trying to make it detect as many different pathway surfaces as possible. So you wouldn't need any officials to be painting guidelines all around the places. I think that wouldn't… I think it wouldn't be logical. So and I also see that this can probably be done. Then we're using also a race track, identifying the space between the lines there. So you could know when to when to turn also, and there were many people trying it out. A lot of blind people running by themselves in a group, it was very interesting. And I'm very much looking forward to see where this leads to.
(Mario) Yeah, actually, on the project page, they are basically inviting any organisations or individuals who is into sports and the running to get in touch with Google and to see how this technology can improve further and maybe you would get the chance of testing out. Absolutely.
(Hlynur) We also have here in Iceland one professional runner who is blind and trying to make it to the Olympic Games so I will definitely be showcasing this to him as well.
(Tanya) He says that at the moment, the technology supports only 2 locations.
(Mario) Yeah. Which I don't understand. What does that basically mean?
(Bart) That's what makes me think that it has to be kind of prepared or that someone has to run the tour first and record the images and that you can kind of download this virtual tour.
(Mario) Yeah, that's for sure, because they're saying that the app works offline.
(Hlynur) Yeah, it works offline.
(Mario) Yeah. So you don't need to be connected to the Internet so there must be some data in the phone.
(Pawel) They might be drawing the line on the floor, which I think happens for like official marathons. Correct me if I'm wrong, Hlynur, but I think you need to have like a visual guidance where you need to run so that you don't get off track and say, OK, I was first, but actually you went off the track and you took a shortcut, which wasn't official.
(Hlynur) Yeah, actually when I ran the Reykjavik marathon last year, there were no lines. So we were just running on the streets which were closed. I almost took the way back and ran a half marathon. But there was an employee who directed me that I was supposed to turn left. So I did. But there were no lines there. Just a lot of the employees, like when we were crossing some roads that weren't closed, they would close them for us so we could run without stopping. But there was no such like clear markings that I could see, except for you just follow the people in front of you most of the time and of course, some road closings with railings and and something like that. But no line, never.
(Pawel) They also mentioned a virtual line. Maybe the line will be just existing in the app.
(Hlynur) Yeah, maybe it's I mean, it might be using GPS even though it's offline.
(Mario) Yeah, but it might be if it's relying on GPS, then it would have to use very, very precise locations that would have to be related to Galileo because otherwise, the glorious GPS, for example, doesn't have that narrow decisions.
(Hlynur) And that's why they must be using the camera, because they're telling you that if you're in a race track, if you are on your lane between the lines or if you're going a little bit too far to the right, it would direct you to the left. So it's far more precise than GPS. So it must be using the camera just how it is doing it, I'm not quite sure, but I would very much like to know maybe we should dig into that.
(Pawel) and what Google is doing already and I think it's really a shame this doesn't work for blind people anyhow, because I tried it. They have a feature for sighted people where if you get lost and you don't know which way to go, as in if I should turn left or right, if I should go ahead or turn around and go back, it will turn on the camera for you. It will analyse the picture of the buildings around you and anything it can see. It will compare it with the satellite image they already have and it will paint the the arrows indicate the direction for you. And this actually works. I tested it with a sighted person on the Google Maps data, and I know for sure if many sighted people, they don't even know where to go sometimes we have Google Maps and they just take a random turn and see if this is getting better or not really. And then they just turn around if they need to. And in order to eliminate that, there is this feature where I think it's called Life Camera or Life something, Life View. And what happens is that, as I said, the image of your camera is analysed against the satellite image they have. And based on this, the direction is given to you.
(Bart) Why do you say it's not working for us? Because the only indicate visually where you need to go?
(Pawel) Yes. So, yes, there is no indication, nothing of screen reader, nothing written in text, nothing like that. There is just this graphical, because it's a AR and they just printed the AR arrow onto the image you see in the camera.
(Mario) It could be done with audio for sure.
(Pawel) It definitely could.
(Hlynur) Yeah, it could be.
(Bart) And I was doing this. There is an app where, especially when you have to start with your guided tour, you don't know in which direction you have to start your route. And I think it's like a compass. You turn around and when I don't know, but it gives a certain beep and stops beeping. That's the way you should start. So it shouldn't be too difficult to make it accessible.
(Pawel) I think it's doable, but they just need to think about it.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, but I think that this is the thing they're doing in this project deadline, because at a certain point of the video of the video, you can hear actually this audio from the smartphone, how we how it sounds like. And you can definitely hear that when the, at least I think this is what's happening on the screen is that as the audio is changing, you can see that the person is going left or right to… I mean, that he's not right on the spot of the track. So, yeah.
(Hlynur) And also it looked like it was a nice touch that when he was on the right track, it looked like that it was mostly silent. And it only seemed to give him some sound once he was too far to the right or too far to the left.
(Pawel) I think it did have one of the articles I read that the louder the sound is, the further off the truck you are.
(Mario) Oh, yeah, so definitely something we should look forward to it and yeah, we can see how how it will develop further, but I see huge potential, which are great.
(Hlynur) Yeah, we should definitely keep an eye on this one.
(Mario) Yeah.
Accessible pregnancy test for the blind (Mario) Ok, so the next topic is very interesting for blind women and girls, because eventually it looks like that some people are coming up with the idea of developing a pregnancy test for blind which I absolutely support. I think that when a woman who is visually impaired or blind cannot see the normal pregnancy test, it's definitely our right to have the test which is accessible by any kind of form. So it's really cool to see that people in RNIB are trying to take care about it. From the article that we have in the show notes, you can see that they developed a prototype with one developer. They developed the prototype of the test which is tactile based. So from my understanding is that you have like 2 different indicators on the test, the one that's showing if the test is positive and the one is that the test is negative.
(Hlynur) I think it's one showing that it works. And if there's a second one, then it's positive. If not, then it's negative. Like the 2 lines on the regular tests, then 2 lines would mean pregnant and 1 line would mean that it's working but you're not pregnant.
(Mario) Ok, well, yeah, by any case, the thing seems to be tactile and currently it's in the prototype stage. For my understanding is that people in RNIB want to raise the attention of the health organisations to start implementing something like that on the regular basis, which would be great because nobody's supposed to be left behind. And when I can just guess, because I'm not a girl and I'm not a woman, but I can just guess that having the information, if you're a woman and when you have even when you come to the point where you have to do the pregnancy test, you are at least being excited because you are waiting for something or you were wondering, oh, am I pregnant or not or whatever. And for sure, this kind of information is bringing lots of emotions to the end consumer who is, you know, pressed to take the test. And if you're relying on somebody else to tell you that and also make some comments about it, which you don't want to hear at a certain point, that's really not nice.
(Bart) Let's just hope that we can make this universally designed because you don't want, if you want to know the answer, you don't want to order a specific test and wait for it to come by post and then by then… you want to have access right away. So, um, if we can find a solution which will be implemented by the regular producers of this test kits, it would be great.
(Hlynur) This is an important human rights issue. This is just something that needs to be there. I have 2 kids myself. And so I know that the moment when the mother has the positive results, this is something that, this is her moment and hers only. So this is very, very, very important. And we should look to that this becomes a universal possibility.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah.
(Tanja) Yeah, I, I think it's also important for couples. I mean, for the woman for sure. But for couples too. I mean, if the partner is blind to because then you have to share the information again with someone else who is not your partner. So yeah, I think also for the woman for sure. But for the couples also.
(Hlynur) Yeah. It's an amazing feeling to see a positive pregnancy tests. I have done that before and I can assure you that looking at a positive pregnancy test is a great experience and if I wouldn't be able to see it, I would definitely want to be able to feel it to. It's an experience.
(Tanja) Mm. Yeah. Well for the moment the solution that we have is calling it Be my eyes, the special assistance from Clear Blue. But again, we have to ask somebody, even though, OK, this person is not somebody who we know, is a professional, who is therefore assisting us, but it would be nice to have an accessible pregnancy test.
(Mario) Yeah, let's go let's let's give you the thumbs up for that, and this is also going to be our show notes. So, yeah, people who want to see and support that definitely use the Twitter. Don't read just the tweets from Donald Trump. You can use it for the other tweets.
(Tanja) Hopefully not anymore.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Pawel) And also let the companies know that you, who you trust for this kind of devices because it's again, it's a design project. So you can just tell them, look, there is somebody who designed it for you. You don't even have to do your own RND for this, just implemented. And maybe it will be like the medicine at some point where you just expect that medication you buy has brand labels on them.
(Mario) Yeah, the only thing what I from the technical point of view about this whole thing, what I understand is that the the part of it, that's a specialised thing which raises these dots or lines. So you have to, like, insert that testing pattern inside of the thing and then it it's using some vibrating mechanism that raises those lines, basically this is how it works.
(Hlynur) Yeah, it's like silicon silicone bubbles, I think.
(Mario) Yeah, something like that, though. What I think I mean, maybe somebody else comes up with something else. But from the way how to this the thing is functioning is that you would need to order that kit like to have it, and then you could maybe use whatever tests or different, I don't know. But that's how it works. OK, but I mean, this is just a prototype. That's why the prototypes exist. Because eventually when you look at the final product of whatever do you have, the first prototypes were completely something else. I, I remember even seeing the first one, at least what they said. It was like the first prototype of Google Glasses. When I was back in Google for the first time, in 2013. They were showing us Google Glasses, which did have some kind of the same things which the later versions of the glasses, but they were also different. So, yeah.
Playstation 5 accessibility news Mario: Ok, so after we have done all the things relating to the human rights and the rights for having accessible pregnancy tests, we could go to the last topic for today, And that's connected to the PlayStation 5, which just came out last month I guess, And there has been accessibility news about their new screen reader and what it can do for the moment. Pawel, is that correct?
Pawel: Yes. We already discussed PlayStation 4 a little bit…
Mario: yeah
Pawel: By talking about the last of us in one of the previous episodes, the last of us part II, And meanwhile, we sort of expected it, but until they announce it, you can never be sure, that PlayStation 5 will be better than 4, because in 4 there was a TTS, it was called Back then, facility that was sort of a screen reader, but first of all, it was just available in the US, so not even in English speaking countries, just the US, so it's like firmware dependent; and secondly, it didn't read everything, as it turned out, so now PS5 is out and it has a lot of interesting features in store. It has a screen reader, yeah, it's now called a Screen reader; it's not just in English and it's now firmware independent, so you can get it also in a couple of other languages, I believe German, French, Spanish, probably some more, but these are the European languages.
Mario: mhm
Pawel: And the best thing about it is the the Start-Up process is completely accessible, so when you run your console for the first time, you will hear some music, and if you are blind, you just have to wait around a minute and it will start giving you instructions what you should do, so connect your controller and then choose this and go here and go through the whole wizard and the whole experience is accessible.
Mario: MHm [admiration]
Pawel: Apparently, it also gives you the instructions in a couple of languages, so in case you don't speak English (it's not your language), you can still hear it in the other supported languages, so you know from the start what to do no matter where you come from, and then you can just choose the language that you want; and everything about it is accessible, so wherever you wouldn't go in the settings almost (there are a couple of exceptions), everything is read out to you, so the achievements that you have already gone through in the games, all the trophies you have earned, the missions you have to do the activities (now they call them), so like these mini quests and and and also trophies count as activities now, at least for the older games; and all the multimedia apps: you have Netflix installed, there is Twitch, there is… Disney plus is not accessible really, but YouTube, Apple TV even, Apple TV+, I mean; and there is also, I think, some American centric stuff like WWE. So most of this or almost all of this is accessible. You can watch your favourite multimedia. You can play the games as long as they're made accessible, of course…
Mario: mhm
Pawel: And all the settings are accessible.
The only inaccessible part is anything to do with web browsing for some reason, so if there is a Web view embedded in any experience, this will not be read, I believe. At least on the Start-Up screen, what is not read is the place where you have to enable two-factor authentication on your PSN or PlayStation Network account and add your mobile number to it, But what happens instead then is that you are told, “OK, this screen is not accessible on the console in the TTS version, in the screen reader, but if you want to do it anyway, here are the URLs you can go to from your computer or any other device to do these steps and you can skip them for now, but you can do that later from another device that is accessible with web…
Mario: Ach, OK
Pawel: So good they really thought about it. It's not ideal, but it's really the best solution for for what it could be achieved at the moment. Also, from what I heard, as soon as you turn on in your accessibility settings your preferences on or off, So, for example, I need audiodescription, I need subtitles., I need this, I need that; this should carry through to all your experiences that you watch, so if a game offers AD…
Bart: [affirmative noise]
Pawel: You'll get AD in the game. If you watch something on Netflix and the series that you watch, or movie that you watch has AD, you’ll get AD. If you need subs, you'll get the subs. If you need some specific contrast settings, you get them in the games as well if they're supported, so you don't need to turn it on everywhere separately.
Mario: mhm
Pawel: Also, there is the option to dictate text so you can do the dictation and you don't have to use the on screen keyboard or hook up an external keyboard, you can just have the controller. And yeah, a lot of of of what you want is actually read out to you, so as you go through the settings, as you go through the, through the menu, as you go through the screen to start playing the game and watching your statistics, you can watch what your friends are up to in your PlayStation network, if they're playing or not and how you compare against them with the statistics in certain games. So all of the experience’s accessible and now here is to hoping that there will be more accessible games from now on…
Bart: Mhm
Pawel: That it will not just be the last of us Part II, but that there will be some new games from some more companies that will be accessible too and yeah, it's really great to hear that
Bart: Mhm
Pawel: the gaming industry on the mainstream side is also pushing forward because it’s a… it’s a difficult accessibility issue to tackle, because with websites or apps you sort of think in this pattern style that, “OK, here I have to put a heading, here I have to label a form field, here I have to put a text on the link”, But every game is different because it's actually designing 3D worlds and like a whole of imaginary scenarios and you have to really think creatively how to replicate it and if it's at all possible to replicate the whole experience for a person who cannot see because, well, games were basically built in a visual way. So this is really new, this is explored just a bit and there is still a lot of things unknown, for instance, whether blind people are able in all possible games to compete with sighted people in multiplayer
Bart: MHm
Pawel: or this is not feasible and maybe maybe we should talk about like a computer game para Olympics or something like that.
[everyone laughs]
Yeah, I mean, when we think of e-ga… of E of gaming as an e-sport, where you actually train and get some awards and you get better and better at it and it's treated like a normal sport…
Bart: mhm
Pawel: at some point you start having these thoughts and… Yeah, this is this is a whole new chapter to be explored, but I'm really happy to see that this is being done, and there are events on accessible gaming, there are people who want to think about how to do this better. I recently read, for example, about somebody doing a Minecraft mod where apparently blind people will be able to play, and it's also quite a challenge because the whole game revolves around building completely new creations out of preset blocks and the ways in which you can bind these blocks together is the countless and you can be really creative, but it's supervisual exercise, so how to replicate this for people who cannot see the blocks? And, yeah, this is this is really a whole new spectrum.
Mario: MHm, Ok, I see what I will do when I go to retirement.
Pawel: Yeah, sure.
[everyone laughs]
Pawel: By then, By then, hopefully the whole the whole spectrum will be somehow more accessible and there will be more in the know as to what we should do about this, how games should be accessible and to what extent they can be still competitive.
Mario: mhm, Ok, ok. No, no, no. But it's really cool to see that the stuff is evolving. As a matter of fact, we just we just talked about PlayStation 4, it was like half year ago.
Pawel: Mm hmm.
Mario: And right now, it's cool to see really that the PlayStation 5 they came… basically they sorted out many not… I I I I will not say all issues, but many issues which were presented in the 4, especially ones that were connected to the firmware thing and stuff where you depending where you were depending on on US firmwares etc, which is now being fixed, so that that's really good.
Bart: It's really nice that there is now a screen reader in this kind of device even…
Mario: yeah
Bart: I never thought I would play video games with my child, but even if you're not playing the games, you still can have an an idea what they are doing on the on the device.
Pawel: That too, for sure.
Bart: When you cannot follow the screen, you can at least if you have any doubts, turn on the screen reader and and and check what they are, where they are or if they get stuck, you can you can help with… That’s really empowering.
Mario: MHm, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hlynur: Exciting stuff
Pawel: Yeah, Xbox also as Xbox Series X is also out, but Xbox already had reputation for having good accessibility on board, Narrator was there.
Bart: Yeah,There is, Microsoft knows about that that They have screen reader in in Windows and for Sony I think it's quite new to to do all the development.
Pawel: Yeah, yeah. And you have like a… They actually developed brand new TTS voices, so you can hear…
Mario and Bart: oh, wow!
Pawel: they have some custom. They don't use anything ready.
Bart: [admiration noise]
Pawel: They made their own voices so…
Bart: [admiration noise again]
they also think about this. Funnily enough, from what I heard, Xbox doesn't really offer that many accessible games and with PS5, you already see, for example, the last of us, there might be some more. And well, that that’s quite ironic that, you know, the console that gave sort of better accessibility impression at first doesn't offer that many games that are accessible themselves so like the…. It's still spinning, I guess. It's the whole idea of making really complex titles accessible… Yeah, that's still sort of developing… And I'm really curious. Maybe one day I'll be able to play FIFA. That would be interesting.
Bart: MHm
Mario: [laughter]
Yeah, yeah. but who knows? There are some… As a matter of fact, I know that there are some game developers from Croatia who just recently got purchased by huge productions studios from the states so… Yeah, maybe I should send them some tweets also, like: “Hey, guys! Pay attention to the accessibility”.
Pawel: Definitely.
Mario: yeah, yeah.
Hlynur: This is this is relatively new on this scale that we have been seeing like with the last of us, So so I think we need to be very much on edge and and regularly letting people know of the importance of good accessibility in video games and that it is even possible.
Pawel: Yeah, the problem is you cannot really give people ready made solutions, like with the WCAG like “Look, here are the guidelines, just follow” because in gaming, the problem is you have to innovate. [laughter]
Hlynur: Yeah
Pawel: And not everyone has the resources and the the inbound values of of innovating in this direction, so that's where it might be a bit slower than with… it is with websites and apps.
Mario: Mhm
Hlynur: Yeah, just just letting people know that that others are doing it and it is possible.
Pawel: Mm hmm. For sure.
Hlynur: Just just an eye opener, I think. I think we aren’t much further than that in this field.
Pawel: Mhm
Mario: Yeah, yeah, let's see. If we start bombarding them with many new ideas and if somebody has also enough time to go into the beta testing teams for whatever, then you are on the right track because then you can give the give enough input to developers What are they supposed to do, Of course, if they want to listen to it but yeah.
Hlynur: Mhm
(Jingle)
(Voiceover) Demo time. Time for a demonstration.
(Mario) This time for you, a contribution from Mr. Benjamin Hofer from Germany who send us the demo of envision glasses. This is a new product which just appeared on the market and you will be able to hear the demo at the end of our podcast.
(Benjamin) Hi, everyone. Welcome to my first demonstration on EBU Access Cast. I hope you're doing well. My name is Benjamin Hofer. I'm from Germany. And today I'd like to talk about a brand new piece of technology which not only has a lot of great features, but also is usable by both totally blind and visually impaired people. I'm talking about envision glasses today.
Envision, some of you might have heard of the company making the Envision AI app. The app is available for both iOS and Android devices. It can do many things like reading text, recognising people, objects, products and importing pictures from different sources and so on. Envision now brought these features on a pair of smart glasses. More exactly said on the Google Glass Enterprise Edition 2, which is based on Android and thus is an open system. So most hopefully we can expect more features. And also third party apps on those glasses.
Envision glasses is available as of now. It was officially launched on November 26 and can be looked up and ordered on envision's website: Letsenvision.com/glasses and of course together with local distributors.
I have my own pair of glasses since the end of October. I got them during the pre-order shipments and now I'd like to tell you a bit about how the glasses look like, what features we have on them right now and how I'm using them. When you order the glasses, you can choose between a standard frame and the Smith optics frame. The standard frame is without lenses, whereas the smith optics frame is for those who are wearing glasses and those who want to put their own lenses in. I have the standard frame that's basically a small and lightweight titanium frame which is attached to the device itself when setting up the glasses.
For the setup of the glasses, you need the Envision app. They are asking you to go to envisionglasses.com and then download and install the app if you haven't yet done so and change to the glasses section in the app.
And there you can pair the glasses with your app and you get explanations on how to attach the frame. The frame is basically the left part of the glasses. It goes from your left ear until the right hinge where it's connected to the device itself. The device itself is the right part of the glasses. So this is the part which is on the right side of your head when you are wearing them. And it contains the battery and the processing unit and the touchpad. You control the glasses using the touchpad and using very similar gestures to those you are used to on iPhone and Android devices. So with VoiceOver or TalkBack. There are swipe gestures, double tap, single tap, tap and hold, and with 1 or 2 fingers. If you're used to an iPhone or an Android phone, you will be very familiar with operating the glasses.
The touchpad is located right on the temple. When you're wearing the glasses where you can access it very easily and goes from the right ear to the front until the hinge. The camera is located in the front on the right hand side, but is angled to the left. So if you're holding something in front of you, it is recognised like the camera were in the middle.
Let's do a short demo of the features of the glasses. If I do a 2 finger swipe down, I always come back to home.
(Envision glasses) Home.
(Benjamin) If I double tap here:
(Envision glasses) It is 14:20.
Today is Sunday, 29th of November. Battery level is at 72 percent. You are connected to Fritzbox 7490.
(Benjamin)
It tells me basic information about the time
(Envision glasses) Two finger swipe down gesture to set your device to sleep mode
(Benjamin) and the date, Wi-Fi status and battery life. And I can do a two finger swipe down to put the glasses into sleep mode. The sleep mode is now active. Let's wake it up. Yes.
(Envision glasses) Home.
(Benjamin) And then go through the different options in the menu.
(Envision glasses) Read.
Identify. Find. Call. Device settings. Feature preferences. Help.
(Benjamin) That's it for the categories. Let's go back.
(Envision glasses) Home. Read.
(Benjamin) And if I double tap on Read:
(Envision glasses) Read.
Instant text.
(Benjamin) I have the features in this category shwon. If I do a tap and hold, every feature is briefly described.
(Envision glasses) Instant text. Instantly read text around you. Single tap to play or pause. Two finger tap for more options. In more options, you can choose to switch between online and offline Instant text.
(Benjamin) Double tapping on that will read every text in front of me.
[takes a piece of paper]
(Envision glasses) To kill a Mockingbird. Harper Lee. In instant text.
(Benjamin) So that was a cover of a book, it reads every text that's in front of the camera so you can use it very well for identifying groceries, but also outside for reading signs or for reading displays.
For example, I'm using it to control my coffee machine that is not accessible by default, but I can read and control the menu using instant text feature. That's really cool.
In the description, it told us that you can choose between online and offline mode. The offline mode is usable without a Wi-Fi connexion, whereas the online mode requires internet connectivity and the online mode is more accurate and in my opinion, a lot better in recognising the different kinds of text.
(Envision glasses) Instant text.
(Benjamin) That was Instant text.
(Envision glasses) Scan text.
(Benjamin) Scan text is for longer and denser text like in documents and things in the mail, screens and so on.
(Envision glasses) Scan text. Scan a document or a long piece of text. Two finger tap for more options. You can enable or disable text detection which detects how many words are appearing in front of you. Double tap again to take a scan of the text.
(Benjamin)
Text detection is very handy in my opinion. It detects the words appear in front of you.
[fast clicking sounds, the sound of a camera taking a picture, a few tones indicating that something is processing]
And you can take a picture by the
(Envision glasses) Reader. To Kill a Mockingbird, the unforgettable novel of a childhood in a sleepy southern town, in the crisis of conscience that rocked it. To Kill a Mockingbird became both an instant bestseller and a critical success when it was first published in.
(Benjamin) I can stop the screen reader by a single tap and.
(Envision glasses) [some tones] Text exported successfully. Compassionate, dramatic and deeply moving.
(Benjamin) And we can export the text to the app so that it cannot be opened up in the envision app and then we can do something with it, like saving it to a cloud or sending it via email.
(Envision glasses)
Swipe down. Scan text. Batch scan.
(Benjamin) The last feature in the Read category is Batch scan. It basically works like Scan text, but is for scanning multiple pages at once.
(Envision glasses) Read.
(Benjamin) If I do a swipe down, I can leave the Read category and
(Envision glasses) Identify.
(Benjamin) Go to Identify. Let's double tap.
(Envision glasses) Identify. Ddscribe scene.
[two beeps, the sound of a camera taking a picture, some tones indicating that something is processing]
A laptop computer sitting on top of a desk.
(Benjamin)
Ok, I think that's kind of clear what this feature does.
It snaps a picture and tries to describe what it sees.
(Envision glasses) Describes scene.
Detect colours.
(Benjamin) The second and last one here is Detect colours. That works like any other colour detector, it tries to recognise the colours, for example, on clothing. I have quite good experiences with it, but be aware of light conditions. So light conditioning has to be really good to make this work ell.
(Envision glasses) Identify. Find.
(Benjamin) The next category is Find.
(Envision glasses) Find object.
Back tap.
(Benjamin) And here you can select between different objects and find them.
(Envision glasses) Bicycle.
Chair. Cup. Bottle. Keyboard. Cup. Laptop. [ping sound]
(Benjamin)
Here we have got a keyboard, cat laptop.
Ok, now I detected my laptop, so it blinks when it detects the object you've selected before.
Find object, find people, the next one is find people, find people, find people, looks like then find people OK.
I pointed it to my direction and it recognised me because I have saved my face in the Invision system, which can be done within the app. So you have to go through glasses, tap in the app and then save your faces and then it will recognise faces. If there's a person that is not saved, it will plain as it did with object detection before. So you can tell if there are persons in the room or outside explore.
The Explorer feature is kind of both. It detects objects and people.
Tv person DVD.
But it's more OK, it recognised AR person here on a picture on the cover, and it recognised the Bart and the laptop was recognised as a TV. So we can use it to look around with the glasses and scan the environment. That was the last feature here.
Fine.
Oh, and now that's the call category. That's quite cool feature. You can add an ally in the Invision app who can be a friend or family member and who can see in the video call everything you have in front of you with the glasses and help you out in some situations. I think this is very good at your device settings.
Device settings contain settings such as speech rate volume, Wi-Fi connectivity, Bluetooth, connexions. You can connect the glasses to Bluetooth speakers or headphones. You can do software updates there if some are available and you can set the glasses to sleep mode and powered them on feed feature preferences. Your preferences contain preferences for some features of the glasses, for example, the online offline mode of the instant text feature and the text detection. So the detection of the scanned text feature and so on. And the help section finally contains tutorials for every feature and a playground to exercise the gestures on the touchpad. So that's it for the demo of the functions. I think the product is a very good one, especially because it's an open system. And as I said, it can be extended also by third party apps, especially think of things like Be my eyes or IRA where it's available, or like a navigation apps that you can really control lots of things on the glasses itself. I personally use the glasses, especially for reading things on packages, on screens, on displays, reading my mail with it. So every kinds of things. But I also manage to read things outside, like signs or text on the stars or something like that.
As I said before, it's really important that you have good light conditions when using the glasses. So if you are in a dimly lit or dark room, it's likely that most of the features are not working properly. That's what I had to keep in mind as a totally blind person. But Invision is aware of that and they probably will try to add some features that tell you how good light conditions are and how the glasses can work. So maybe that getting a bit easier in the future. For me, this is not a big problem. You have to be only aware of it. That's it for my demonstration. For more information, go to lets envision.com/glasses.
I hope you enjoyed the demo. Thank you for listening.
Mario: All right. So I think we covered everything for this show. This is the last episode for 20/20, believe it or not.
So. In the name of all of our team, we wish you a merry Christmas and a happy New Year.
Pawel: Oh yeah, and happy New Year.
Mario: And if you got some interesting stuff and some interesting demos of some products, send it to us and we will love. Publish it in the next episode. We do have some indications of some some of our listeners that we will get some demos. But until we don't get it, we don't publish it. So you better send it. Yeah, of course. As always, we are reachable by our email Ebuaccesscast@euroblind.org and via our Ebuaccesscast Twitter. So you can reach to us whatever you want with your comments, suggestions. And we hope we are not too boring for you andyeah, Or as always, the episode will betranscribed. And yeah, we are looking forward to see you in 2021. Take care. Well, thank you for listening.
This has been EBU Access Cast.
Welcome back to this month's edition of the EBU Access Cast, as always packed with the latest assistive technology news and gadget discussion. Our content in written form is in our transcript.
We started this one off with Mario telling us all about his brand-new phone, the Samsung Xcover Pro, the latest in the famous line of rugged, durable smartphones made by Samsung. This experience gives us a chance to discuss what to watch out for when choosing the right Android smartphone, including some less obvious characteristics, and how to make sure you will not need to return your purchase days after bringing it home.
Not only Mario did have an interesting device to present, as Paweł got a hold of Feelspace Navibelt, an aid in form of a belt worn around the waist that makes independent navigation easier.
We broke off the path of new hardware to point at a survey opened by the EDF where the opinion of disabled citizens is asked regarding the accessibility of public sector websites following the deadline of the 23rd of September which is when the Web Accessibility Directive should be met by all of the EU member states.
Our discussion of new devices carried on to the news section as well, as we discussed the latest Google event which, short as it was, introduced us to a slew of new speakers, smartphones and even a much smarter Chromecast streaming device. Beyond the event, Google surprised us all, with a little help from Ubisoft, by presenting the feature of alternative audio tracks for youtube videos. Will audiodescription become the new norm on the world's most popular video sharing platform and how easy is it to find the new option?
As is often the case with us, we also took a moment to check out what is new with the most essential pieces of software, the screen readers. While NVDA 2020.3 introduces system keys' emulation and changes for touch screen users, JAWS 2021 beta greets us with Sharky, its brand-new voice assistant, and some more image recognition news.
We also had to share an unfortunate piece of news regarding Samsung's Voice Assistant. Beginning with One UI 3.-, Samsung's Android experience based on Android 11, the company has decided to retire its own screen reader in favour of Google's Talkback. Does Talkback have any real competition at the moment and how easy is it to bring a new screen reading experience to the Android platform? What were your memories connected with the Voice Assistant?
Should you have any questions or queries, do not hesitate to contact us using our email or Twitter.
Stay tuned and, most of all, healthy and safe in these difficult times.
Until the next episode coming to you in November.
Transcript of EBU Access Cast - episode 26 Introduction (jingle)
This programme is financially supported by the fundings from the European Commission.
You are listening to the EBU Access Cast. The first official podcast from European Blind Union about assistive technology for blind and partially sighted people.
And here are the hosts.
(Pawel) Welcome back to another edition of the EBU Access Cast, this is the episode for October 2020, and here we are with another portion of fresh assistive technology news for you. My name is Paweł Masarczyk and I'll be hosting this episode. And today with me, I have Tanja Kleut from Luxembourg. Hello, Tanja.
(Tanja) Hello, Pawel.
(Pawel) Also from Luxembourg coming to us Mario Perčinić. Hello Mario.
(Mario) Hey man!
(Pawel) Hey there. And Bart Simons from Belgium. Hello Bart.
(Bart) Hello everyone.
Accessibility in the News (Jingle)
And now… Accessibility in the news.
(Pawel) Plenty of news to discuss this episode, amongst them, for example, the new survey of EDF regarding the accessibility of public sector websites in different countries, as well as the new Google products that were announced at their latest event. Also from Google, a brand new feature of audio description and multi track support for YouTube videos. Then we can't forget also about Screen reader news. There is going to be a new version of JAWS No. 2021 as is going to be also an update for other Vispero products with pretty interesting features we'll discuss in this podcast, as well as the new NVDA version. And then, last but not least, some users amongst us will be quite sad because Voice Assistant is going away. But don't worry, there will be a screenreader. Stay tuned and find out more. Also note that every time you would like to jump to a particular section of this podcast and review a particularly interesting news item, refer to your chapter list in the app where you can find all of the news we're going to discuss as separate items to choose.
Before we delve into news, however, let's see if any of you, or, hum, perhaps I got some new gadgets this month.
(Mario) Oh, you too!
(Pawel) Um yeah, but if anyone else did well, maybe I'm not the only one.
(Mario) Yeah. I got also a new phone, finally.
(Pawel) Is it a pixel?
(Mario) No!
(Pawel) Is it the Pixel 5?
(Mario) It isn't a pixel, though I was waiting for the Pixel 5 announcement and when I realised that basically they are good devices, but it's eventually nothing special for me. I give up from getting pixels. So at the end I got another phone, which is from Samsung. It's a Galaxy Xcover Pro model.
(Pawel) These are the durable ones, right? I think the series is going on for quite a while. I remember the xcovers back in 2013 or 2014. I think these models are going strong ever since.
(Mario) Yeah, the ones that I know is that they first released Xcover 4, which was like from 2017. Oh, yeah, time flies fast.
(Pawel) Indeed.
(Mario) And after that, they had few versions of those xcovers.
But now in 2020, they released the Xcover pro, which is kind of their version of a durable Samsung phone, which means that it's. Yeah, it's, it should be ... waterproof, which is cool. It has IP68 ratings and it should stand also droppings from 1,5 meter to the ground, as well as the possibility of working on the screen if you have gloves, so that's also a cool thing. It originally comes with the Android 10 and it belongs to the huge update scheme for the phones, multiple Samsung phones, not now that that belong to the 3 years period of the updating, which means that I might be getting even Android 13 when it comes out.
So that's a cool thing.
(Pawel) You are secured for the years to come.
(Mario) Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Hardware wise it's kind of similar phone to the A51 for those of you who are familiar with the Samsung devices, so it's like a Midranger. I mean, it does it's not anything high up, but it's for what we need and what I need, it's absolutely more than fine. It's coming with the 4 gigs of RAM and 64 gigs of internal memory, though Android itself is constructed that way that it allows people to put any kinds of SD cards in the phones. So, for example, I put it 256 gigs card and I can store anything that's not relating to the installation of the software to the card. So like books, podcasts, all kinds of media that I'm downloading, it can go directly to the SD card. So I'm not abusing my internal memory of the phone, which is fine. And I can tell you that, for example, right now I installed all my apps, which is like I have about 150 apps on the phone and it's, I have less than half of the space occupied, which is fine. So overall, it's really good.
Yeah, and I'm really happy with the device, it performs really well, I have to say that ...
(Bart) What's the size of the device, Mario?
(Mario) Size is 6,3. So the screen size is 6,3 inches.
(Bart) That's quite large. For a nowadays phone maybe not but...
(Mario) The thing is that it's kind of large, but the way how Samsung constructed the phone is that you have like edge to edge screen size. So basically, it's not that huge. For example, I had the previous phone, which was also kind of a durable thing, which had like 5,5 inch screen, but because of those extra protection features that it had, the phone was ... the same size as the Samsung.
(Bart) I see.
(Mario) So basically it's absolutely fine. And one of the things which I forgot to mention about the phone, is one of the really cool features which you cannot find in many today's phones. And that's the thing that it has a removable battery. Believe it or not.
(Pawel) Oh, that's good.
(Mario) Yeah. So even people, I saw like on the net, posts where people are saying that people would buy multiple batteries if they need extra juice so they would swap the batteries. But it's absolutely fine. It's USB C compatible. And there is also a power charger, that special Samsung thing, which allows very fast charging. But this has already fast charger and it does charge really fast. I went like from 0 to 50 percent in a little bit like 30, 40 minutes or so. So it's OK.
(Bart Mm hmm. Nice.
(Mario) So if you need some quick recharge, that works very well. What else? Yeah, the accessibility of the phone is fantastic.
I have to say that, you know, I was coming from the Nexus phones when they were available for a long time, which ran the stock Android and I had Moto G device in the past and that Cubott phone, which also was kind of stock Android thing. But I have seen some Samsung devices in the past from the other people, but the amount of features and customisations which the device has is absolutely outstanding. So I have to say that it's great to see like how much Samsung UAI integrated all the things relating to the accessibility, but also it has like much more functions from Samsung integrated into the phone. Like whenever you go into the settings and customisations, you will find additional features that are not available like in the native Android.
But in the same time, most of those features are 100 percent accessible for us. So that's a cool thing.
And yeah, one of the reasons why I picked up this phone is because it has physical fingerprint sensor, because right now the trend on the smartphone market is that when you are buying any kind of newer Android device, you will get the on screen fingerprint sensor, which for people who are completely blind, can be really, really tricky. And when I was even talking to the others, the other people on the Android lists about this, all of them told me, like, yeah, you can get used to it, but you will never be 100 percent precise.
(Bart) Do you mean, you have to put your finger on a very specific area, but you can touch it? You can't feel it?
(Mario) Yes. But the other thing is that also when you are defining your fingerprint in the settings for the first time, you can basically put your finger whereever you want on the screen
(Bart) And then next time it has to be on the same spot.
(Mario) Exactly.
(Bart) Mm hmm.
(Mario) And that's the thing. For example, some people said that they kind of solved this problem with some different kind of casings where they would have some certain spots in the case, where they would touch it or so and so and so. But it's, you know, these are all the issues where you are not required. I mean, you are not precise 100 percent all the time. So it's, for me that was kind of an issue which was like eh, no, no! Because I almost got like A71, which is also Samsung device and it has really great specs. But because of that feature that where you don't have a physical fingerprint sensor, I said that, no! So, yeah, but I'm really happy with the current phone, so that's good.
(Pawel) That's great to hear. New phones are always fun to explore, especially because you have all these features to discover. And what are the differences, especially in Android land between the stock Android and the modified Android and maybe here a manufacturer had a better idea for some feature that is simple but makes a whole lot of a difference when you're using it on a daily basis. I am for instance quite happy about Motorola, where they introduced in the latest update a feature of switching tracks in my music player while the screen is locked, by holding down the volume buttons. I use it quite often.
(Mario) Oh yeah, that's nice.
(Mario) Even though my phone has one feature, which I will, actually it is not a feature that's not basically listed nowhere on the site and when I found it later that it doesn't support the ambient light sensor, I was like ehh! is this even possible? How is this possible in 2020? But it is eventually. There are phones, for example the whole Galaxy J series from Samsung, also does not support this ambient light sensor. So what does that mean?
It means that, for example, if you have the apps which have light detectors, well, they will not work, because eventually you need that sensor to detect the lights. But what's possible and I have written to one of the developers of such apps is that they could implement the feature for using the front camera to do the light detection. That's how it was done in the past when those ambient light sensors were not utilised so much. But yeah, that's that's the only kind of downside of the phone, but I was a bit surprised like, wow, how is this possible?
(Pawel) Yeah, these are these rare kind of features that nobody cares about in the basic specification. Because what everyone is excited about mostly is the RAM, the built-in memory, the processor, screen, ...
(Bart) The camera.
(Pawel) The camera of course. And then maybe does it have 4G, 5G, NFC whatever memory card or only built in memory, what kind of headphones and ports. And then suddenly it turns out that for the blind users there are these small things like the compass, like the ambient light sensor, like a good pair of microphones, like where is the speaker located so that you don't cover it with your hand while typing in Braille for instance, really quirky things. And then you buy the phone because you couldn't obviously test all of that at the shop or anywhere. And you buy it and you find that oops, it doesn't have a really tiny detail that makes the whole difference.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Pawel) And it's difficult to find. I mean, there are websites on the Internet and apps where you can compare different devices based on even those tiny details. But you need to know about them and you need to do your research really well before you buy the phone. And even if you do that, there is no guarantee that there will not be some annoyance that will maybe even make you return the device back because there is a glitch in the software that makes your speaker go funny when you use a screenreader ...
(Mario) Oh yeah, for example.
And you know, the funny thing about my model of the phone was that in the official, Samsung specs there is nothing written about this because the manufacturer didn't find that important to say, oh, you know, this phone doesn't have ambient light sensor. So if they don't say, you might think, well, it's 2020. This might be kind of normal to have it on the phone.
But eh, no, wasn't here.
(Pawel) Exactly, the cheaper Nokia models, they are cheap and they are fine. But then it turns out they don't have a compass. And if you're seriously using GPS navigation as a blind person, ...
(Mario) that kind of sucks.
(Bart) Do you know Gari database from the Mobile Manufacturers Forum?
(Pawel) I heard about it.
(Mario) Yes, I heard for that.
(Bart) It's a website where you can compare phones, based on specific requirements, like for accessibility for different handicaps, and they are always open for feedback. So if there are features that are important for choosing phones for specifically for visually impaired people, you can always suggest them to add to the list. And it's the manufacturers who have to fill in the information. So at least they will be triggered if they see some new questions that they are relatively important for some of their potential buyers.
(Pawel) I think also GSM arena has really advanced filtering system, you can just go on there and sort your options by really, really different criteria.
(Mario) Yeah, they do. But it's kind of general. I mean, it's a general kind of website gives you absolutely good info. But I also checked the Gari site that Bart just mentioned and yes, it is definitely accessibility oriented.
Yeah, that's good.
(Pawel) Yeah. So straying away from the phones, I also have something new which I incidentally won in a competition.
(Mario) Well, congratulations. Yes.
(Pawel) Thank you. Also, if you see some kind of competition done by either a manufacturer of a device that you think you like or a shop that is selling this kind of equipment, consider taking part because somebody always wins and it may be you. So it's actually interesting.
What I have is an aid, an assistive technology piece, called feelSpace the naviBelt which is pretty much what it says, a belt used for navigation. The way I understand it is a compass that you were around you as a belt with velcro and you pair it with an app that they have over Bluetooth and you use it as like a proper GPS app, except the direction to your destination is given to you via vibration on one of the sides of the belt so you can feel what direction you should turn.
(Bart) But the rest of the information is spoken by the app then: "in 50 metres" and then you feel the buzzer on your right hip.
(Pawel) Yeah, exactly.
(Tanja) Did you have the time to test it outdoor?
(Pawel) Yes, and it works fine. Maybe it's the magic of Innsbrück where I currently am because I find myself taking longer walks than usual here. Somehow everything is accessible from within walking distance and it's not that difficult to walk around here, but it really, really helps.
And it makes a difference because ...
(Bart) Does the app then do its own turn-by-turn direction or does it go together with TomTom or with Google Maps or?
(Pawel) It does its own.
(Bart) It does its own.
(Mario) Oh?
(Pawel) Either it's on turn-by-turn or you can set a beeline on a specific point and you just have a general direction and then it's your job to figure out the way. So like most navigation apps for the blind do actually.
(Bart) Yeah, but it's another one. It's not using Via Opta or one of the other ...
(Pawel) Nothing external. No.
(Bart) Yet another one. OK. Interesting.
(Pawel) Yeah. And it also has a compass feature where you can get your general directions via the same way, the vibration and also street crossing mode where when you set yourself against a street crossing you turn it on so you feel the vibration. You go through the crossing and when you stray away a bit to the left or right, you can feel that the vibration changes. So you know how to position yourself to go in a straight line.
(Mario) Yeah, that's interesting.
(Pawel) That's quite smart indeed. Yeah. It's an interesting device.
(Mario) Since it's a vibrational thing, what about the battery? How long does it last.
(Pawel) It's supposed to last a minimum of 8 hours. And it's also interesting how it signals to you the percentage of battery that you have. Basically all of the vibrating motors will vibrate around your waist. And the sooner it ends, the less battery you have. So if it only reaches around somewhere on your back, then you better charge it.
(Mario) Ah, ok.
(Bart) So it makes a circle?
(Pawel) Yeah, exactly.
(Bart) Oh OK.
(Pawel) It is an interesting way of indicating information.
(Bart) Very haptic.
(Pawel) Indeed.
(Mario) Yeah. But I remember uh.
I saw that device as I don't remember if it was a prototype I think it was still in the prototype.
(Tanja) Yes. we saw it on Sight City 2017. I think at that time ...
(Mario) 19.
(Tanja) No, 17. 17.
(Mario) Whaaaat?
(Tanja) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because it was not the year when we went on Sight City with Pawel, but it was 2 year before that. And I think at that time it was not in stores yet. That was quite interesting but we just had the possibility to test it only there indoor so you know you're limited, you cannot really test it how it works on the street. And so, but it was quite interesting.
(Pawel) Yeah. That's a problem with many interesting devices on events. Either it's for outdoor usage so you can't test it because you're indoors or something happens to the internet and internet features of something don't work. Sometimes you can only take a look at the device and be happy that it looks nice.
But yeah, so time flies and the devices develop, which is good.
(Bart) That's good news. Yeah,
(Mario) yeah, so congratulations, man.
(Pawel) Thank you. And as I said, if you see a nice competition somewhere around the corner on social media, or a newsletter, consider taking part. People win at those actually, hehe.
Announcement of the EDF new survay on the accessibility of the public sector websites OK, so having said all of that, let's go straight into our news and we start off with something that we already discussed last time. So the deadline, the magical deadline of the 21st of September, where all the websites in the EU, in the public sector should become accessible, have they or have they not? The EDF wants to check that in their latest publication. And for this, they need your opinion, opinion of every one of you who has some experience in their country. Tanja you have some more information about this, right? It's a survey that we have to fill in.
(Tanja) Yes, exactly. It is a survey. As of the 23rd of September this year, all European public sector websites have to be accessible for persons with disabilities and in this context, the European Disability Forum launched this survey. There are few questions based around the accessibility statement. So they ask you if the website of the organisation is accessible and do they have the accessibility statement. So the accessibility statement is an important component of the accessibility of the organisation. And you can check the survey on the EDF website. What is also important is that if you do the effort to write to them about some accessibility issues, you can do the same and write those issues to the organisation actually and raise the question in your country. So the experience that I have is that unfortunately, we are not there yet and there's still work to do, so it is important to take this opportunity when you can share your feedback and to raise this question.
(Bart) Do you know what they will do with the data collected?
(Tanja) I don't know, I guess maybe plan some new projects based on the most recurring issues. This is what I suppose this is one of my personal guess, but I don't know. I guess they will plan some projects in the future.
(Pawel) I thought some kind of publication going to be released with the findings from the survey. At least that is what I saw on the web page of Survey Monkey where you can fill in the questionnaire.
(Bart) So that's a good motivation to fill in another survey.
(Mario, laughing) Yeah, but I mean, this is also ... the thing that comes to my mind right now is that all of these data that they will need will be definitely also used for the status of the monitoring, I guess, of the websites.
And what's the real situation in European countries.
(Tanja) This will be a part, from EDF, but actually the monitoring, the real monitoring that will be from the European Commission, from national public sector bodies will not be through EDF.
(Mario) This I understand. But what I wanted to say is that this kind of data could be used for that, because eventually what could happen is that, this is just my guess, but what eventually could happen is that we might see totally different results with the for example, the official results from the commission, let's say, and the monitoring states and from the people who really are people with disabilities who, you know, filled up the survey on the EDF site.
(Bart) Oh, that's possible.
(Mario) That's possible.
(Tanja) Yeah. So it is important that we as persons with disabilities share the feedback on different instances so that they know actually what is the current state of accessibility.
(Pawel) The survey is also available in 3 languages, that is English, French and Spanish. So if you feel more comfortable filling it in in another language than English, then there are options. Yeah. So it's not really limited to just English. Yeah. So let's fill it in and let's hope that it will actually result in more knowledge, widespread knowledge about whether the European directive has actually worked or not.
Google Launch Night In Now we should discuss something a little bit different, and that is the new products that were announced at the latest event by Google, also an online event where they did it really on the last 30 minutes.
(Mario) Yes, it was only half an hour.
(Pawel) Exactly. And yet they managed to pack in 2 new smartphones, a series of new loudspeakers and a Chromecast
(Bart) Replacement.
(Pawel) Exactly, with Google TV. This is not the same as Android TV, I suppose.
(Mario) No, but it will be replaced with the ... So the Android... It's kind of confusing at the moment.
(Bart) Yes, it is.
(Mario) Because the Android TV will be replaced by Google TV in the next 2 years. So that's the plan.
(Pawel) But it still will support the Google Play store and the apps.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(Pawel) I couldn't see that from any like press coverage.
(Mario) Yes, that's the plan.
(Pawel) That's interesting because well it's a cheap device, let's say. Fifty dollars for a Chromecast.
(Mario) Yes, it is. It is like a device that you're also getting the remote with and the remote has basically, if I understood correctly, it has 2 buttons. There is a Netflix button, a magic Netflix button, because all today's remotes have to have Netflix buttons. And there is also a search...
(Pawel) Assistant.
(Mario) Yeah, assistant button.
(Bart) 70 Euro I heard.
(Pawel) 17 euros? Ok.
(Bart) 70.
(Pawel) 70? Oh yeah. OK
(Bart) 50 dollars and 70 Euro
(Pawel) That's good because the Android TV devices usually were more expensive.
(Mario) Yeah. Yeah. So, this device will replace current Chromecast old Chromecast devices that was like thirty or something. Mm hmm. And yeah. Who needs a new Chromecast? Yeah that's what we have now.
(Bart) It does a lot more than casting from Chrome. It's also a complete.
(Mario, laughing) No, no, no, no. That's yeah.
(Bart) It's a historical name but does much more than that.
(Mario) Yeah. Yeah. But even the original Chromecast passed that a long time ago. You could now cast from, well, lots of different sources.
(Pawel) Yeah, if you look at Google Play under Chromecast, you will find really a lot of creative uses for this. There is even a microphone option so you can turn your TV into sort of megaphone style broadcast device. There are even, I think, apps for playing old school games on Chromecast. So you have a sort of like gaming console control with your phone as the pad. So, yeah, it's not just like boring sending of photos or videos from here to there. It's really well expanded solution. Do we know how to control this device? So when the Android is already on there? Hopefully TalkBack will be as well. How do we control the? Where do you make the gestures?
(Mario) No news about that yet, I can say.
(Pawel) That is interesting, because Google usually includes something. I think even with Stadia there were accessibility mentions. So I'm pretty sure they have something.
(Mario) Yeah. Yeah. There must be something.
(Pawel) And the new Pixels with 5G.
(Mario) Yeah. They also announced a new Nest audio speaker which is basically replacing the original Google home.
I have to say that regarding their presentation, which they streamed, they did kind of gimmick thing which I found quite annoying as a person who is being, you know, working with audio, because they were saying that the new speakers, besides having a little bit different look and blah, blah, blah, that it has a new set like that, that the overall sound is 75 percent more louder and that it has like 50 percent more base than the original speaker, blah, blah, blah. And then you could see in the presentation thing where they said, like, oh, now we are going to show you, like the presentation, how it sounds. So you could see, you could hear really in the presentation, Google assistant announcing that the song will start and eventually that presentation was coming out from the speaker. But then when the song started, they switched to the, you know, original sound of the song, how it sounded.
So they were faking basically... hahahaha... how the device sounded.
(Pavel) Ai ai ai, naughty, naughty
(Mario) So they were faking how the device sounded. But eh, Well, okay. Yeah, but I mean, OK, I'm sure that there is a kind of improvement definitely on the sound point. There is one thing which is kind of a, I would say, huge for people, because from what I understand is that they were saying that if you for example, right now you can pair 2 of their Nest audio devices and they can be paired in stereo. While the old Google Homes couldn't do that. You could make a group of speakers in different rooms, but they couldn't run in stereo if you had, like, 2 of them together.
And basically they are also looking to ... if you have like 2 of them together, you could completely replace your, let's say, stereo system at home if you want to. They could be used as the alternatives to Sonos speakers or the other sound bars that are available.
So that's now available from Google.
Um, and, of course, all the functionality that originally was supported by the Google home is also here, so you can work with the assistant and talk to it. That is the same. There is one thing different on the newer speaker: the microphone mute is no longer a button, as it was on the original home speaker, but it's a switch. So that's maybe even better for some people. So, yeah, that's a good thing. And they also released the new Pixels. Yeah. Pixel 4A 5G. Man, what a name. Pixel 4A 5G and the Pixel 5 phones. They are in Europe available from ... so Pixel 4a 5G is 500 euros and Pixel 5 is about 650 or a little bit less. And it's available for pre-order already in the Google stores, who wants to order them?
They do have all kind of, yeah, newer features, the 4a 5G is equipped with the 5G antennas. As well as the Pixel 5, but in the same time, the, I mean, people who are doing the hardware, the announcements all the time, of the smart devices, they saw in the hardware specs that the price of the 5G of the Pixel 5 is a bit, it's a bit pricey. And that's just because of that 5G model, which uses some kind of specialised MMW or how it was called module, which is just being used in the States. That's kind of a special antenna that's for 5G that's used just in the States. And that antenna cost, well, some some lots of money.
And they were saying that if any other 5G model would be used, they said that the Pixel 5 should be much cheaper, but yeah. The good thing is that Pixel 5 is finally IP 68 and it comes with 8 gigs of RAM and it's quite fast, even though the battery is also expanded. So it should be OK. It's about 4500 milli amperes. Even though, keep in mind one thing if you're buying 5G device for the moment, if you go and buy anything that's 5G and you are in the situation that you can use the 5G network, your battery will drain really, really fast.
That's not only the thing related to the Pixels, that's the thing related to all the devices that utilise 5G.
So, yeah, you will have a fast download and fast upload and all the things that 5G offers, but your phone will get quite hot and the battery will die quite soon. So that's why I also didn't get to 5G phone for the moment. 4G is fine for me.
(Pawel) Well, let's wait for the technology to mature a little.
(Mario) Yes.
(Pawel) Maybe then will be more battery efficient in the future. One feature I'm really excited about that the new Pixels offer is the hold for me feature where you can actually ...
(Mario) Yeah that's. That's yeah.
(Pawel) Yeah. A call centre, a phone line where you are placed in the queue and you have to wait forever and ever. And then what the phone does for you is it will basically let you disconnect for a while or put it away and it will send you notification once the call was answered by an actual person who would like to help you. So then you can return to the call and talk to them. I think it's really great. I was once holding a line for a friend for like half an hour and listening to "Hit the road, Jack" was certainly interesting, but over and over again in a loop. I think it's better if ...
(Mario) Well, you're not anymore in Luxembourg. If you have to call Mobiliteit central and you wait for them to answer the phone, it can take up to an hour. Believe it or not. So, yes.
(Pawel) Yes, exactly. When you are like the 30th person in line, it's good that such solutions exist and that Google makes this smarter for us. Well, there were these plans, the Duplex feature, that was supposed to ... and I think it still works, but only in English and in the States.
(Mario) Yeah, but I'm also wondering how this hold feature eventually works. I mean, is it listening? Is it listening what kind of message does it say that you have to wait or there is some kind of other, I don't know, DTMF tones in the background? So that it knows when to pick up the line, because if it's a language specific thing, then I'm afraid that in the most countries that are not English speaking countries, we might have a problem.
(Pawel) Maybe it controls, maybe it watches for some repeating frequencies, because usually when you wait in the line, the sounds that you hear is pretty much the same. It's mostly music. And then some announcement coming back every now and again, the question is how fast you catch it when it changes.
(Tanja) But I had also the experience sometimes that there is nothing when you're waiting, which is quite annoying.
(Mario) That's also true.
(Tanja) Yes. You have a message at the beginning, but then later you have nothing. But well, it's interesting to see how it actually works because maybe it does not depend on the language. We don't know for the moment.
(Mario) Maybe not.
(Pawel) It may also require the providers of such services to become a bit smarter because another feature they are offering now on the Pixels is the enhanced call screening, where if a company calls you, they can put in a reason of the call. So you can see why they are calling you as well. This, I suppose, they have to attend to manually if they want this to work.
(Mario) Ok,
(Pawel) Yeah, so we'll have to wait and see. So this is one of these features that people will have to consciously use.
Youtube multiple audio tracks and audio description (Pawel) There is also another feature from Google that people I hope will start using consciously once it rolls out globally. This was actually announced at the #GAconf, which is one of these big events for game accessibility. While presenting the trailer for the latest Assassin's Creed Valhalla game, Ubisoft showed it, it turned out that there is the ability in YouTube now to upload multiple audio tracks to one video so that if you offer a video in several languages, you don't have to re upload it over and over again. You just upload it once, you add the additional audio, and it is synchronised and you just choose it on the website or in the app. And the good news is there is also the possibility to add audiodescription tracks. So in the show notes, you will find a link to the trailer. And if you go in there and with your B letter, you navigate through the buttons and in the player area you find the settings button. It's an expandable button and you open the menu there, you'll find a sub menu called audio tracks and you open that and you have 2 options, English or English audio description. And you can switch and switch over to the audio description version of the trailer. So I don't know if this has been announced officially. I haven't seen any official announcements from Google yet. So there is no technical specification of how it works. But the demo works surely. I tried it and it's there. So it's to be hoped that quite soon we'll also see how this exactly works for creators. This is definitely a great news because we have been waiting for so long and there have been these alternative solutions like You Describe where volunteers could practically describe YouTube videos to you. But finally, this is natively integrated and I only hope that the YouTube results we enjoy watching on a daily basis or organisations who provide really essential or interesting content will care to add this description where necessary.
(Tanja) Yes.
(Mario) So how is actually this preparation of the audio tracks done?
(Pawel) This is the part that we still don't know because it's not widely available. I really hope you can add it in the creator somehow in an easy way, because, yeah, there is a way, of course, in an mp4 file to add multiple audio tracks, multiple audio containers. This you can even do via VLC Media Player when convertin. Uh, maybe Youtube can read from that too. So if you are that professional and your video editor allows you to add multiple audio tracks, YouTube can fetch from that. But I also hope that there is an alternative way via the YouTube Studio interface. But we'll have to see about that when it's released.
(Tanja) But it is quite surprising that there is no mention on the Google support page about this, because actually it is not straightforward, because you would not go into settings to search for audio description.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Tanja) And what I find also confusing that there is a button in the player for subtitles and closed captions, but when you go in the settings in the drop-down menu, you can find again the closed captions and subtitles menu, which can be expanded. Because, in the player it is on or off, but there, in the settings you can see off. And then depending whether the video has real subtitles in another language or auto generated closed captions or subtitles.
(Mario) I think it's ...
(Bart) It's also different tracks that you can have. So you can indeed have captions in several languages. Therefore you would have to choose in the settings. And YouTube is producing automatic captions for almost every video, but they are of course, not good enough. There are errors in them.
(Mario) And it's only for English, I think.
(Bart) No, no, it's not.
(Tanja) No, no, it's not.
(Bart) But of course, the quality for English will probably be higher than for other minority languages. But they offer it for many languages.
But when you go in as an author of the video and you correct the subtitles, it becomes a separate track. So the original autogenerated still exists and you add the real ones as Tanja says it: the corrected ones. And so indeed there is a toggle button to switch on and off the captions. The author can set the primary track, but in the settings button you can modify it.
And I agree with Tanja that it's unfortunate that for audiodescription, there is not such a toggle on/off and we have to go and discover it in settings whether there is an option available, but at least it's a step forward.
And I really hope that for authors of video, it will become easier to insert the audio description because it's not easy for most people to record this on the right time, because your audio should not overlap with ... your audiodescription should not overlap with the audio of the video.
(Mario) Yes.
(Tanja) Yes.
(Bart) There are no easy tools for amateurs, let's say, to the record audio description, I think, except for those services that you mentioned, like You Describe. So I really hope that YouTube will make it easy for authors to produce the audio description as well.
(Tanja) But I also think that they should think how to make it easy for users, because I think it is confusing to find closed captions under 2 different menus or one in the player directly and the other in the menu, and audio description that is hidden in the settings. So I think it should be organised a little bit more different, but maybe the time will show.
(Pawel) It should be toggle settings like Netflix does where you define your preferences from the start. So I am usually an audio description user and I speak this and this and this languages. And then as soon as the track is available in that given language or any audiodescription, though, it will be automatically turned on for you.
(Mario) That's what I just wanted to say as well.
(Pawel) Oh, sorry, I just ...
(Mario), No, no, it's ok.
(Mario) I think I see practical also problems with the current implementation:, for example, you would start to watch some video, but your audio description track would not start automatically, so you have to pause the video, turn the audiodescription on and then go back and start again, which is kind of time-Consuming.
(Tanja) Yes, and I don't see a shortcut to activate the audio description because you have to go in the menu. And for example, for close captions, you have a shortcut in the player, so that would be good as we use the keyboard to have a shortcut for audiodescription.
(Bart) True.
(Pawel) So, yeah, for the moment, it looks like the main focus of the feature is the audio tracks for languages and the audio description aspect is there somehow by the way.
(Tanja) Yeah.
(Pawel) Hopefully expanded to make it more prominent. But for the time being, we don't even have a definite documentation on how an average creator could actually integrate it so well, we have to wait until this will be something more official.
Yeah...?
(Tanja) I wanted to say that it is great that it is there as a possibility and we can take advantage of it now, and as more as we use it or, the authors will use it, probably it will develop in the future.
(Mario) Sure. The only thing what we can do for the moment is to also act on the accessibility support channels for Google because Google is the owner of YouTube. So there are ways how we as people with disabilities can contact Google and we can definitely say what we wish for, for example, all the things that we discussed right now in the podcast.
We can definitely also, not only we, but our listeners who agrees with us, they can contact disability support group because the way how the things are getting solved in Google relating to problems with disabilities is that they're raising the tickets for some problems and if certain problem gets enough votes, then it gets solved out. And so. Yeah, the more people react on it, the more results we will have.
(Tanja) Is there a place or website where we can react about this... related to YouTube?
(Mario) Yes. So there is a ... we can put also the link again for the contact information for disability support channels. Basically, you can also use Be My Eyes and call to disability support from Be My Eyes directly and communicate that thing with them verbally or if you want you can do that in written form as well. That's how I raised, for example, a few issues myself.
(Tanja) Hmm.
(Pawel) Yeah, so they also care a lot about what you see on Twitter, because if you talk about their products and the accessibility, even in your private tweets - not private messages, but private tweets where you don't mention Google specifically - or you talk to somebody on Twitter and you say, yeah, this doesn't work in terms of accessibility. Suddenly turns out they respond to your tweet and they say "would you like to raise an issue with our technical support for accessibility?" And they give you a link. So they definitely would like you to give them your feedback. And also, every - if you're using Android -, every app that Google made has a "more options" button where there is the "send feedback" option.
(Mario) Yeah yeah yeah
(Pawel) Then it goes escalated to the right department and the right team responsible for this particular app.
new releases of JAWS, Zoomtext and Fusion (Pawel) Speaking of accessibility and being close to screenreaders, we quite often mention what's new with Vispero products. And this time it's no different because, well, the year 2020 is coming to a close quite soon and the year 2021 is coming and with it the new versions of JAWS, Fusion and Zoomtext. And they have some interesting features, especially one which is the voice assistant nicknamed The Sharky for JAWS and Zoomy for Zoomtext. So when you call out Sharky, you can ask to make your speech faster, make your speech slower, read from this moment on and do some kind of recognition. A lot of commands that you normally use with your keyboard shortcuts, you can call out from your microphone. And this is really interesting. I wonder if a lot of people will use it. Definitely it's useful for people with motoric impairments.
(Mario) Absolutely, yeah,
(pawel) Yeah, as they don't have to use any external software to do the work anymore because obviously it was possible before to use the computer via commands. Now it's built in. But I think also for many of us who are sometimes doing things in the background and I don't know, reading a book, for example, and we would like the speech to go slower and would like to pause or resume. This would be definitely useful when we have our hands busy with something else. For the time being, it's available in, I think, 6 languages. There was English, French, German, Dutch, probably Italian and Spanish, and it uses the Microsoft speech recognition engine, which sadly is not yet available in a lot of languages. So many users will not be able to use it for a while, I'm afraid. And yeah, it's an interesting enhancement in this era where every company has their own voice assistant. Now Vispero is doing the same for a screenreader, and I think it's an interesting move to innovate.
(Tanja) And do you know if speech recognition is linked to the language of JAWS? Or you can change it manually?
(Pawel) I don't know yet, but I would suppose it rather will be, unless there will be a setting for this somewhere. But it would make most sense because then it's using the same translation basis.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Pawel) So I think it will be like that.
(Tanja) Mm hmm.
(Pawel) We'll have to see.
And also other than that, now JAWS is able to give a bit more in-depth description of images in the recognition mode. It can also insert the OCR content straight into an Office document. And yeah, it receives a lot of enhancements for the OCR module, and that's the focus of this update, I would say. So watch out for the beta. It's already available. And yeah, if you have any experiences with Sharky, give us your feedback. It would be interesting to hear it.
NVDA 2020.3 RC (Pawel) And not only Vispero updated their products because also N.V. Access is proud to present the new NVDA version. It's the 2020.3.
(Mario) Yeah, it's the R.C. at the moment, I mean, the stable release is just behind the corner, basically.
(Pawel) Yeah, and what can we say is new in there? I noticed, for example, the ability to detect unlabelled graphics and to navigate between them, and there is also the option to assign any system shortcuts, keyboard shortcuts, to a shortcut of your choice in NVDA.
(Mario) They also have now touch screen support shortcuts as well.
(Pawel) Oh, that's nice.
(Mario) Which can be turned toggled and pfff what's there...
(Pawel) Some more ARIA: I think ARIA mark, one of these values.
(Mario) And among many different bugs, which they solve from version to version, there is a one thing which got solved and I'm pretty happy that it got solved out. And that's the thing that eventually was causing some sound cards to make the problems with speech synthesisers, where you would, for example, read something and then you would hear the beginning of the word cut out and the end of the word cut out again. And that would also affect, like the USB speakers or USB headset, even Bluetooth headset especially. So what they've done in the new beta release was that they left the communications channel between the speech synth and the sound card open all the time so that there is no more those cutting issues. And that's supported for all the speech synthesisers for NVDA built-in like eSpeak and all the new Microsoft voices. So that's good.
(Pawel) I think there was a plugin for that at some point that
(Mario) There was a plugin for Bluetooth just.
(Pawel) Ah yeah.
(Mario) Yeah, that was a plugin for Bluetooth but it's no longer, I think, in development. So right now it's no longer needed basically.
(Pawel) I'm really happy about the system emulation thing, because if I get it correctly, I think we are, for example, able now to assign certain shortcuts to Braille display accords.
(Mario) Yeah. Yeah,
(Pawel) That's great because for example, my difficulty with switching to use Braille more is the fact that I use Twitter a lot and the specialised Twitter clients have a lot of shortcuts that you need to use in order to operate the programme fully. And yeah, until now it was very difficult to press all these Windows, alt, control, arrow keys and hopefully now it will be possible to assign some kind of Braille chord to this shortcut and this way access Twitter or any other software more conveniently.
(Bart) So you can assign them not only to NVDA's own commands, but also to other programme's shortcuts in general.
(Pawel) I think, yes. I mean, any combination of keys, as I understand it, can be assigned to anything in NVDA. So desktop layout shortcuts, laptop layout, as Mario said, touch screens and I believe it should also work with Braille displays.
(Mario) Mm hmm. Yeah.
(Pawel) Yeah. So this would be really great.
Samsung replaces Voice Assistant with Talkback (Pawel) And we'll still stay for a while in the screenreader's land because well 2 of them are getting an update and one of them is going away. And that is the Voice Assistant from Samsung. We have seen the changelog for the one UI 3.0 based on Android 11. So that's what you, Mario, are going to get probably quite soon. And the changelog mentions that the Voice Assistant app is gone and TalkBack comes back.
(everyone laughs)
(Bart) That's a big news.
(Mario) It is, though, I have to say practically that when I was configuring my phone, I could get the Voice Assistant running right away.
So for example, I would press the 2 volume keys on the phone and if you hold them, the accessibility comes up. So the Voice Assistant comes up. But then later, of course, I had to download TalkBack.
I mean, now it's called Android Accessibility Suite, from the Play store. And what I noticed right away when switching from one to another is that the Voice Assistant is much more clunkier than TalkBack for current version of TalkBack. And one of the reasons why Voice Assistant is more clunkier is because the way how Samsung built Voice Assistant was that they downloaded really, really old repository of the TalkBack, which was, yeah, basically available for general public. Was it open source? I don't know, but it was available for download as a source code. So they forked that old version of TalkBack and they implemented lots of functions which people liked because it had quite similar usability as the VoiceOver on the iOS devices. There was even a triple home gesture for turning the Voice Assistant on and off before. But right now the TalkBack supports all of the functionality that the Voice Assistant used to have or let's say still has, but it's no longer needed for Samsung to do that. So eventually, that's why Voice Assistant is going to retirement and it will be available for all the devices which are getting Android 11 and in the future so no more Voice Assistant. There will be just TalkBack.
Which I find OK. I mean, if we came to the point where, you know, TalkBack matured finally enough to work OK and we can also see the Samsung and Google were collaborating more on the accessibility altogether. Well, I don't see why why not then if the TalkBack is now included. That's absolutely fine.
(Bart) Is there any other possibility for installing a screen reader in Android? Long time ago we had something called Spiel. Is there still something around or is it only TalkBack at the moment?
(Mario) Oh, OK. You touched the interesting topic. Spiel is no longer in development, let's say shortly and it's not in development for a long time. We used to have another thing from China.
It was called Shine+
(Pawel) That was from Korea, I think.
(Mario) OK, and then it was Korea then, yeah, I think it was China, but anyway, somewhere from Asia.
And that thing had quite some nice features, but it was not developed frequently.
And now we come to the interesting topic of discussions which even Pawel and I had offline. And that's the thing that is called commentary screen reader.
Now, the thing about the commentary screen reader, keep in mind that this is my personal opinion, but I, as a matter of fact, there are people in the other parts of the world which kind of think the same. But the thing is as follows. The overall product is really good. Like it's amazing how much the product can do if we take into account that from what we know, it's developed by only one developer in China. So that's a Chinese thing. It has been ... community kind of picked up on it like last year and for the last year, they started doing the translations and now there is like international version of the Commentary available. But now we come to the big but.
The problem for the moment is that as the official Google Play store is not available in China, the overall product is not officially distributed via any kind of official distributing channels. So right now, only people can get it from like Telegram. And, yeah, the other kind of sources and from my understanding is that once you install it on the phone, then you could basically like get the updates directly from the Commentary itself.
But it's still not ... I mean, we still didn't come to the point where we could be publicly available.
(Bart) So it's not like endorsed by Google?
(Mario) No. No, no, no.
(Bart) And there are no other ... it must not be an easy job to develop a screenreader competing with TalkBack, Google's own product. It must not be easy.
(Mario) Absolutely not.
(Pawel) Android gives you the possibility to do that because you can install third party things. But then, yeah, it's hard to find a product that is something more than somebody's hobby that somebody seriously picks up on and develops. There are, of course, also like special phones made for the blind, which have some custom screen reader on them. I think Kapsys is one such device.
(Mario) Yeah, but we didn't hear from them for a long time actually. If there is anything new.
(Pawel) Yeah, I think there is also ...
(Bart) NVDA also started as a project of 2 people. So it is possible, but it's hard work to build and maintain a screen reader for all these devices.
(Pawel) I was just saying it's difficult to find an example like working out there. People have been trying to fork TalkBack of course, and add some things on top of it or change sounds or do anything to it. But yeah, at the moment it's it's mostly TalkBack.
(Bart) As a long term project that's very heavy, I think, to maintain.
(Mario) Yeah, but as I said, you know, regarding the functionality, people are really happy with how this Commentary performs and in some ways it even works better than TalkBack. People are especially saying that regarding the responsiveness of the devices is much, much more responsive than what TalkBack is.
(Bart) But the question remains, do you trust your device in the hands of one individual?
(Mario). Right. Sure. And especially, you know, I'm not kind of conspiracy theorist, but, you know, if something comes from China, China, China.
Well, you know that today the situation is kind of tricky. There was at a certain moment, I remember even there were lots of, I would say, unnecessary questions that the commentary was asking for users for the permissions rights. And that was a huge ... there was a huge debate about it on the Android lists, whether why it needs that permissions and so on and so forth.
(Bart) I would think that if you wanted to do that kind of thing, that there are bigger markets than the screen reader users to target. But yeah, you never know.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's how it is.
But I mean, as of the official channels, TalkBack is the official screenreader we have.
(Bart) The only one in the Play store.
(Mario) The only one in the play store. And it does get better. And I think that we should absolutely supports the fact that this is happening. What's happening with the situation, for example, with the Voice Assistant, I am coming back on the topic, that, you know, now it's a process and basically it changes for the Voice Assistant, so that's good.
(Pawel) Yeah, I personally would miss a couple of solutions they had in the Voice Assistant. Particularly, I believe there was an option to quite quickly navigate between activities. If your app offered actions, for example, in WhatsApp now there is an action to mark an individual message so you can mark a couple of messages and select tehm and perfrom batch operations. And in TalkBack you have to open a menu and find the action. Not that much work, but if you think about the rotor on iOS and the way actions are organised there, it's really handy. You just turn the wheel to the right position, slide down and there you go. And you can, for example, delete the message instead of double tap and hold, find the option, do something else. And in Samsung you could basically scroll with one gesture, if I recall correctly, between the actions and then you just chose it on a particular element. So there was no need to open new windows.
(Mario) Oh, yeah, OK, true. But maybe this kind of thing will be expanded in Android 11. That is something we don't know for the moment.
(Pawel) Yeah, hopefully this will be, because I never found this interface of actions that convenient. And I wasn't the only one because Facebook was considering adding the actions as well for the posts. So you have one flick per post and then in the actions you can, like, comment and do whatever you want. But then they said it makes as much sense to implement this as to put an actions buttons next to the post element that you double tap and you choose from an extra menu.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Pawel) So eventually even they - one of the biggest developers for the Android - they gave up on the idea altogether, which is sad, but maybe the interface will be reorganised in the future. I think also there was this possibility to instantly look up your battery status and the time and your network coverage, wifi and the status of a couple of other things in one gesture. But this was more relevant when it was difficult to access the status bar in Android, I think prior to Android 6, you could only read the entire status bar in one go. So if you only cared about the battery, that was difficult. And I think they have much better editing options. So, for example, if you are reading something and you would like to select a portion of this text that you're reading, but not the entire item, just some words or whatever, copy out a phone number or something. This is, I think, still somehow better organised in the Voice Assistant because there are gestures to accomplish that somehow and people really like that. On the other hand, the problem of Voice Assistant is that - as Mario you already said - it's based on a really old TalkBack version.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Pawel) And therefore it hasn't caught up with all the accessability API updates that Google has released ever since. And often we ended up in situations where developers tried to make their apps accessible and it turned out that OK, with TalkBack everything works fine, then with Voice Assistant, it doesn't work at all or it works much worse than in TalkBack. There are some navigation problems, not everything is read, and then people are complaining that, well, the developer did not really care to make it accessible for everyone because he only made it accessible for one screenreader. But the problem is not in the app itself. The problem is with the screenreader that also doesn't catch up with the specifications. And that's generally the problem of accessibility. Even if you look at the WCAG guidelines, you realise that a lot of the recommendations there are made sometimes in order to avoid some commonly made mistakes in screenreaders, or at least some of the accessibility courses teach you that, you know, a good idea is to do it like this because then this and that screenreader has a problem in reading this and that this way. And maybe you in order to be fully compliant or fully comfortable with everyone, you should do it in this particular way to avoid this problem. And yeah, it's also sad because Samsung was a big supplier of phones and people were buying them really gladly. Well, somebody is putting a lot of effort and then a huge user base says "well, your work went to waste because it doesn't really work with my screen reader." So what's the use of the accessibility enhancements.
(Bart) Did Voice Assistant have braille support?
(Pawel) Uh, I don't think it was there.
(Mario) No, I don't think so.
(Pawel) You still have to install Brailleback. I mean, TalkBack doesn't have it built-in either.
(Mario) True.
(Bart) No, no no, but could it work with Braille back?
(Mario) I think yes. Once you installed it, I think yes but ...
(Bart) We can skip it.
(Pawel) Brailleback is like a separate screenreader.
(Mario) It's kind of like a separate service.
(Bart) Let's skip it, sorry.
(Mario) No. you raised a valid question, that is OK.
(Pawel) I'm interested to see what happens with the other Samsung features like the camera faces detection or the ability to switch between the keyboard with lifting your finger and double tapping on letters. And I think the curtain, because Samsung was the first to introduce some kind of screen curtain. I think this is not relevant anymore that much. So maybe they'll get rid of it or maybe they even leave it because the TalkBack curtain doesn't have these root privileges to really turn off the screen. And I think with Samsung, I mean, that's the manufacturer. So maybe they have more power over their own device and the curtain can be a bit more effective in what it's supposed to do, not just saving your privacy, but also battery.
(Mario) Mm hmm.
(Pawel) And yeah, that's
(Mario) What I'm hoping is that, for example, I noticed when testing the Bixby on my phone, which is a Samsung version of the Google's Assistant, I noticed that right now on the Android 10 the situation is if you run the newest TalkBack with Bixby, it's breaking up. So Bixby starts speaking and then TalkBack jumps in the middle of the announcement and then the Bixby stops talking. So I'm hoping that this will be resolved in the official release when Android 11 comes up. So that TalkBack doesn't interfere with Bixby because Bixby is an official Samsung thing, and if they're planning to include everything all together. So I think it would be good that this bug is sorted out.
(Pawel) I think there are also some discussions between Samsung and Google to somehow make Google assistant also available on Samsung more prominently. I don't know if this means that Bixby goes away. I wouldn't say so because there are also some new features being added continuously, but they are thinking of some kind of closer cooperation there as well. So.
(Mario) Well, that would be great, because right now, as I have Samsung device, I don't have a side button to call the Google assistant. I need to caal it via a soft button.
(Pawel) Yeah, I see what you mean. Yeah
(Mario) Or I can shout to the phone, that is also available. But the problem with the - if you have too much Google devices in your house - is that once you shout the magic word, all of them are turning on at the same time. So you cannot just call the assistant on your let's say smart speaker. But if you shout, everything turns up and it's great, it's kind of ... it can be quite cacophonic some times.
(Pawel) Yeah. Another issue I also observed with my phone is when you have the voice matching enabled, so you can use the hot word to activate the assistant, the microphone is partially blocked and you can't really go stereo, for example. And when I disabled the hot word, I realised, OK, the stereo works again. So this only started happening in Android 10. So before it was completely fine. Now.
(Mario) So you mean if you're recording, or?
(Pawel) Yeah, yeah. If you in general have this on, you will never be able to go stereo, at least with my phone, because it will be always mono with some kind of worse quality. And when the hot word detection is disabled then everything works normally.
(Mario) Oh, man, that's kind of big.
(Pawel) I mean, again, Motorola thought about, maybe not about that, but about some kind of alternative use case and they added like a double power button click to open the assistant. It's also quite handy to open it now. And yeah, nobody is listening in on my microphone. (laughing)
Farewell (Pawel) Yeah. So, that will be it for today. I think that's all we have for you in the news. We hope you enjoyed it. It was some pretty interesting stuff we covered in here, I think. And a lot for you to listen to, process, discuss and get ready for the next batch in November. So thank you for being with us here today. Remember that every time you would like to leave a comment or feedback or anyhow let us know anything that we might find interesting, you can reach us either by email at EBUAccessCast@euroblind.org or Twitter @EBUAccessCast.
Thank you for listening. And we hear from each other in approximately a month's time.
(Everyone) Bye.
(Outro)
(Jingle)
thank you for listening.
This has been EBU Access Cast..
Welcome back to 25 transcribed episode of EBU Access Cast - podcast about assistive technology for blind and partially sighted people!
We started this episode with a short presentation of the EBU 2020 award best practices in web accessibility
The EBU jury attributed the first prize to EBU Czech Blind United (SONS) for its contribution in encouraging public and private sector organisations to improve their web accessibility.
The European Commission and the European Disability Forum organised on 23 September the online WEBINAR on the web accessibility directive marking this important date by which all public sector websites across the EU will have to be accessible for persons with disabilities.
If you attend often online events via Zoom and if you would like to adjust the verbosity of the events the new NVDA addon for Zoom can help you to enhance your Zoom expirience.
If you would like to separate the screen reader from the other sounds on your computer, you can do this by using Audiomixer by the Dutch company Babbage.
Have you noticed that the native Facebook website became screen reader accessible? Ingeneers from Facebook explain how they built accessibility into the new Facebook interface
Microsoft opened the Accessibility Fundamentals training to everyone. The course is composed of 4 modules that give a basic understanding of accessibility in Microsoft products.
Android 11 has been launched and we commented the new accessibility features.
The Google Lookout app has been updated and now Android users can benefit from having a similar application as Seeing AI on iOS. Pawel prepared for you a demonstration so stay tuned until the end of our episode to hear how it works.
Google Chrome started to generate accessible PDF documents by keeping the HTML structure from the saved webpage.
Libre Office 7.0 introduces accessibility checkers for documents
Wondering how to wash or iron a shirt? Laundry Lens is the app that can read care labels on clothes to determine the washing conditions.
Lego Braille Bricks, a set of bricks for children to learn Braille, launches in a couple of European countries
We also announced the new, virtual event, Sight Tech Global
which will be organised on the 2 and 3 December 2020.
If you want to stay in touch with us you can contact us via Twitter and our E-mail. Till next time stay safe!
Introduction (Intro jingle)
(Voice over)
This programme is financially supported by the fundings from the European Commission.
You are listening to the EBU Access Cast. The first official podcast from European Blind Union about assistive technology for blind and partially sighted people.
And here are the hosts.
(Tanja) Hello and welcome to the EBU Access Cast. This is episode 25. My name is Tanja Kleut. I hope you had a nice summer break and that you are doing well. We have the full crew with us, Mario Perčinić from Luxembourg, hi Mario.
(Mario) Yeah, we passed the 21. So we are now legal. Yeah. Hello, guys.
(Tanja) Yeah, hi. Paweł Masarczyk, this time from Austria.
(Pawel) Yeah, old Face, new place. Hello.
(Tanja) Hi, Bart Simons from Belgium.
(Bart) Hello everyone.
(Tanja) And Xavier Cisscar from Spain.
(Xavier) Hello. How are you?
(Tanja) I'm fine, thanks. Hope you're all doing great. What's new, guys. Do you have any recommendation for a new application or hardware that you bought during the summer or...
(Mario) Not really for the gadget stuff. I got some music equipment over the summer, but yeah, nothing, nothing techy for the moment. Still looking at the list of phones, though, so some things are popping up. But I didn't purchase anything yet, but yeah, I'll talk about it later.
(Xavier) We are waiting for your recommendations about phones. I want to learn about Android 11.
(Mario) Ok, yeah.
(Tanja) OK. From my side. Nothing really new in this aspect. So I propose to go to the accessibility news.
Accessibility in the news (Voice over)
And now… Accessibility in the news.
EBU 2020 award on web accessibility best practices (Tanja) The European Blind Union organises the award each year for good practises in accessibility. And this year was for web accessibility. The number of contributions was small. The applicants were interesting and they received a prize. So the number one is the Czech Union of the Blind, which had a very interesting application, not usual, I would say.
I don't know if you had the time to read and go through the summary and their application? So what they say is that they recommend 10 tips to ensure accessibility for public sector web accessibility. First is promotion of accessibility by giving presentations in all occasions. So raising awareness is the first point that they recommend. Then, starting with accessibility as soon as possible, because then the actual effect will have much more impact later in the website or in the product. Also, testing accessibility at the early stage for free and then providing full tests for a price. And then there are other recommendations. I don't know if it's necessary that I go through all of them. So they decided to take it differently, not just to follow the obligations from the Web Accessibility Directive, but to focus on those 10 points with the result that at the end they have a good collaboration with the company and they can continue to collaborate in the same way, having the good experience of users and also by providing better accessibility of their website.
The other 2 organisations that were awarded, are the Polish Association of the Blind and also the Italian Association of the Blind. I don't know, Pawel, if you know more about this Accessibility Plus project in Poland that they mention. They say that it is part of this project, implementation of the Web Accessibility Directive into national legislation in Poland, and also a project that tries to make websites of the public sector more accessible.
(Pawel) Yes. So basically the Accessibility Plus “Dostępność Plus” is a new bill that is in the power now. And it basically builds on this directive and it also obliges the public sector websites to be accessible. There are also some social implications in regards to accessibility of the built environment, etcetera. And there was a new task force built new corps of experts who deal specifically with these issues. And sometimes we see posts from them. And I can tell from what I have seen so far that, at least a couple of people there, I recognise the names and I can tell they're quite knowledgeable people and they know what they're talking about and they know the environment and they know the ins and outs of accessibility. And the good thing that is happening here, and I think the pandemic sort of propelled that, is that we are going more and more into digital e-government structures. So more and more things can be settled online and we have, for instance, a mobile app for managing not everything, but a lot already about, well, your administrative matters. So if you are a student and you have your student ID, it's in there. If you are driving a car and you have your driving licence, it's going to be there soon. And if you need to register your car, you can do that too.
(Mario) What if you're blind and you drive a car?
(Pawel) Oh, that's something I haven't tested yet. Maybe you will find a rare exception and then, you know, maybe we'll get a bounty for testing security.
(Everyone laughs)
(Xavier) Soon you will be able to drive a car, if you are blind, hahaha.
(Pawel) Hopefully. But something that is definitely interesting for all of us is the medical patient portal where you can actually check prescriptions. So if you go to a doctor and they give you a prescription for any kind of medicaments, you got any kind of medicine, you don't need these prescriptions on paper anymore. You rather get a digital prescription in the form of either a SMS text code that you show at the pharmacy and you get your medication or you have a QR code inside the app and you just show it again at the pharmacy and you get your medication. And you can read some details on the medication that was prescribed to you. You can keep track of all the prescriptions. So this is really convenient compared to how it was before. And things like that happen. I think also recently, this wasn't fully accessible, but at least worked and some kind of progress. And the Polish Postal Service introduced a service when you can receive a digital version of any administrative correspondence you might be receiving. So before you get your paper, your physical letter, you will also get a digital scan in PDF and you have to recognise it with OCR software, but nevertheless, you can read it on your own in any kind of form. So this is happening. I think there was a survey conducted by one of the NGOs that is a watch dog for accessibility in Poland and the public services have a slightly better rating than last year. There is still a long way to go. But I'm hopeful and I think a lot is happening and there are people who know how to take care of this.
(Tanja) That is great. And that also can inspire other organisations in other countries to follow the same or to see that that is possible, because maybe you see that there is much room of improvement left. But in some other countries we are still not there. So it's great to hear about this work and about these experiences.
So in the Italian application, they mentioned that, for example, they are collaborating with the Banking Association and they're working to make the online banking system more accessible. For example, they also mentioned that they're collaborating with the national media RAI to provide an accessible version of the content for people using screen readers or assistive technologies, which works well, I can say because I speak Italian, but I'm not sure if special versions of websites is the right way to go. Of course, we have to always go for inclusive websites that are the same for all users. And of course, accessibility will benefit also other users.
Online webinar on the Web Accessibility Directive Next topic is the online discussion of the Web Accessibility Directive that is organised by the European Commission and European Disability Forum.
So the Directorate-General for Communications Networks, Content and Technology is inviting you to participate in the online discussion of the Web Accessibility Directive to speak about the achievements that have been done so far and also about the remaining challenges. Bart, you can share with us some more information?
(Bart) Maybe I can provide a little bit of background.
In 2016, after a long lobby, EBU, European Blind Union and other organisations finally managed to have some legislation on web accessibility in the European Union. This came in the form of a European directive, published in the official journal in 2016. And how it works with a European directive is that every member state needs to implement the legal text in their national legislation. So that takes time. And with every legislation, there is a period in which you can adapt your existing websites in this case by a certain deadline. Of course, you cannot publish a law that yesterday everything had to be accessible. So the deadline is September 2020. So if we manage to publish in time our episode of this podcast, it should be online just before the deadline because it is 23 of September this year. So that's what the European directive says. By that date, all public sector body websites in all European member states, also the old ones have to be accessible.
(Tanja) Yeah, I wanted to add, unfortunately, this does not apply on websites that are not maintained anymore.
(Bart) There are like in every legislation, there are exceptions. There are quite many exceptions. It's always a give and take when you make legislation. So there are some logic exceptions. There are a few which are not so logic. But also in the directive, it is said that after 3 years, so from now on, they have to evaluate all the exceptions. So there is somehow a mechanism to review what did work, what did not work in this period.
(Tanja) Ok. And you will also have a key note at this event.
(Bart) So on this date, on that famous deadline that we know since 2016 is coming up, they decided to organise this webinar. Everything is webinar nowadays. And since it's co-organised between the European Commission and the EDF, the European Disability Forum, they proposed me to do the introduction. A key note on why is accessibility important and what difference does it make when it's not? And so, yeah, the programme is quite ambitious. They say that they want to hear achievements. Well, in theory, the achievement has to be that all the websites have been made accessible. Of course, we know that this is far from reality, but I think it has to be a positive day. Hopefully many people have woken up by now and will be working hard in the coming period to rectify the situation.
(Tanja) Ok, that's great.
(Xavier) My asking would be, or my proposal would be perhaps, not for the keynote, because the keynote, as I understand you are pointing, has to be a positive keynote. But an interesting work would be comparing different level of achievement inside the European Union. For example, the case of Polish situation that Pawel has been talking about with the Spanish situation that is in some cases will be better and in some others won't be. And then knowing why is different. Why is better in some aspects and why is worse in some others and trying to learn what has made it better and what and what has made it worse. So I know that there must be many conditions, many circumstances and many things that can condition these achievements. But we can learn many things from ourselves. And I would be very interested in actually knowing the situation in all the European countries because I have liked a lot hearing from Pawel. Is there any forum or any place where we can know from other countries in these situations? Because one other thing is knowing the ways we users have to ask for getting things better, because many times we find things that are not being implemented, but we cannot say anything. I mean, we find many websites that are not being made in the right way. But we ask them to make it in the right way and they don't listen to us. So where can we get this information actually?
(Bart) Many interesting items I could react on. But to keep it brief. You're absolutely right that the situation in different member states is not the same, although all member states had to implement in their national legislation the same text from the European directive, some may go further. Some may not take several exceptions, or, as Pawell explained, they may extend it to more than public sector body websites. That's perfectly possible. So there are certainly differences/ You could, if you like legal text, you can compare them because they are made public. How the different member states implemented this legislation.
(Mario) Keep in mind some of those are copy paste, but OK.
(Bart) Yeah, mostly it's copy paste.
(Tanja) This is the site of the commission where monitoring is published. Is that the one that you're mentioning?
(Bart) It's very hard to find. Yeah.
(Tanja) Because there is a site where they invite public sector, in the framework of monitoring, to leave the reports. But as we are now starting…
(Bart) We're not there yet. Now, what they had to communicate, the member states had to communicate to the European Commission the legal texts that they implemented to transpose, as they call it, the European directive into national legislation. And there is a database where you can find those legal texts and you can also find which organisation in every member state will do the monitoring. And that starts only now. The law is there, now starts the next phase. It's monitoring how many websites are indeed complying with the law.
(Mario) Oh, yeah. And then there will be a lot of failure. Absolutely. Yeah, that's for sure.
(Bart) And they have now, I think, 3 years time to do the reporting on that monitoring exercise. So what's important is that we have now legal texts. That's good. But of course, what is even more important is what reality does with it. Do people obey to the law or or don't know the law or decide to ignore it? So while there are differences in the legislation in every member state, I'm sure the differences on the floor are even much bigger.
There are countries with a long history in accessibility, like Spain, like the Scandinavian countries, I think. Who have already national legislation since long time, so we can assume that the situation is there better than country like mine, Belgium, we never had any national legislation. Only since this European directive is transposed, we have something in our national legislation.
(Mario) Yeah, but for example, you have the organisations such as yours in Belgium, which, you know, is taking care about the whole thing. There are countries where the whole thing relating to the web accessibility or let's say digital accessibility and whole perspective is really, you know, at the early beginnings. So we cannot expect that…
(Bart) That's also what I heard in Xavier's intervention. What can you do as a user, as a visitor of those websites if, although they are obliged to be accessible, if they are not. And there is no policeman strolling the Internet to find inaccessible websites and report them. The directive leaves this indeed to the users, to the visitors.
There is a, what the very euphemistically call, a feedback mechanism. We could say a complaint channel, but they call it very nicely feedback mechanism where you can address your accessibility.
So a little bit like the accessibility@Apple.com email address. So they have to give you a way to report any accessibility questions or if they say something is not accessible, you can request an alternative. They will need to publish those channels in their declaration of accessibility. And if you don't get any answer from that website, which can of course happen, there should be another level where you can go with your feedback or remarks or complaints, and this should be an independent, like an ombudsman organisation, and they should help you to register your problem and hopefully solve it. And for me, this will be a very important factor, because if you don't get any feedback or any response to your feedback, you will quickly be not motivated anymore to contact website owners. So that will be vital that this enforcement body that is really on the side of the users and really trying to to make your case, because otherwise, if we leave it fully to the individual users, they will quickly give up. And so for me, that's really important that this enforcement body that is really the ombudsman function, that should really be on our side, because if they are blocking everything or if they are not independent from government, they might not dare to stand up for the rights of the users. So for me, that will be a and that will, of course, be completely different in every member state as well. So the power of this body will be an ally for visitors to get…
(Xavier) My experience, as far as my experience teaches me, or has taught me or is continually teaching me, legislation is important, but it's not enough because what you really need is money and convincing people because of course, police is not going to go to the house of the web programmer or the web boss or the owner of the web. In Spain recently we've got this new coronavirus tracing app, as you may have in other European countries, and the app, because this directive affects also to mobile apps from public sector also, I think and… no?
(Mario) No, it doesn't.
(Xavier) It doesn't?
(Xavier) If the application is from the public sector has it to be accessible?
(Bart) For apps, the deadline will be June next year.
(Xavier) OK
(Bart) For websites the deadline is in a few weeks.
(Xavier) Well, in this case this app wouldn't have to be accessible. But in Spain, really, this app is not accessible because we can't check to accept the privacy policy. So we can't accept the policy and we can't use the app unless we ask a sighted assistance to check the policy for us.
(Bart) Crazy.
(Xavier) So this won't be presumably arranged in June. So the law is here and they could advance the accessibility and they could do it before June, I think.
(Bart) I'm not really agreeing with you when you say for accessibility we need money. I agree more with what we heard from the price winner, the Czech Republic. What we need, I think, much more is awareness.
"Xavier) Yeah yeah yeah
(Bart) We have always to fight this saying that accessibility is expensive, that it's difficult ...
(Xavier) No no no
(Bart) If you are a well trained developer…
(Xavier) The money is not for accessibility. The money is for making people aware of these things. I mean, for having an ombudsman, for having publicity, for having, I mean, the law alone, it's not enough.
(Bart) No now, I am fully with you.
(Tanja) I can also see that some new websites here by the public sector are not compliant, then they're failing basic recommendations on accessibility and it's really disappointing and we have to inform them. We have to intervene. And I think this is the best what we can do for the start. And then if we don't receive a reply that they will try to fix this, then maybe we can proceed with other means.
(Bart) Yeah.
(Tanja) OK, so you can still register to this event if you are listening us before the 23rd of September.
NVDA addon Zoom Accessibility Enhancements (Tanja) And do you know, Bart, on which platform this will be hosted?
(Bart) It will be, uh, Go to Webinar.
(Tanja) Aha go to webinar, OK. Because I wanted to connect it with our next topic, which is Zoom and the addon for NVDA for zoom. But, well, it will not be useful for this webinar, but it will be for another one.
So this addon improves the accessibility of Zoom with NVDA and add some more shortcuts and announces more events and alerts. Do you have experience with this addon? I know, Pawel, that you are very experienced with Zoom.
(Pawel) Yeah, I haven't tested it yet, but what it basically does, it lets you control which events are spoken and which not. Because a lot of people found it annoying and they found themselves being overflodded with everything that Zoom says in meetings, especially with a lot of people joining, leaving, sending messages to the chat. And on one hand, you would like to focus on the speakers. On the other hand, you also would like to know what's going on, but maybe not everything at once. And especially if you're hosting the event, you'll get a lot more messages because Zoom needs to let you know what's going on so that you can react. The waiting room events, any request for any permissions or anything like that.
And this addon allows for switching that on and off per event basis. And then also what you can with this is when you're doing remote control on the computer. Basically, it works as long as the other party is also using the screen reader because then you can also have the sound broadcast. That's not the problem. But the problems start when you want to switch efficiently between your own computer and the other party's remote computer. Then some keyboard shortcuts may be blocked, may be overtaken by the remote machine and so on. So this addon allows you for switching between the 2 computers and that's what it does for now. I may make this suggestion to the developer, but I think what it could also do would be reading of subtitles. Because at the moment, the mobile versions of Zoom read them perfectly fine. If there is a subtitling provided for the webinar or meeting.
(Mario) You mean the captions?
(Pawel) Yeah. Yeah, the captions. Exactly. On the PC, it's sort of irregular. At some point it will announce the captions, at most points it won't.
And they are really useful, especially if you're not a native speaker of a language in which the meeting is and you would like to follow of course ...
(Mario) Ah, Pawel wants to join the Chinese meetings. Now we know.
(Everyone laughs)
(Pawel) If I ever wanted to, I mean, that would be a great help. But sometimes even with English, you have different accents. There are names of products given, and I really find myself exporting ...
(Xavier) In this case, you couldn't use this addon because this addon only works in English.
(Mario) Yeah, true.
(laughing)
(Xavier) I am sorry.
(Pawel) I think it's fairly easy to localise it and somebody would…
(Xavier) Ah really?
(Pawel) Yeah. And a lot of NVDA addons...
A bunch of python scripts with localisations but…
(Mario) It will probably come along with the future versions, the localisations.
(Pawel) Yeah. But I often find myself exporting the entire captions at the end of webinars so I can note down the names of some products or websites or names of people who gave their email addresses somewhere or anything like that. And of course for people with hearing disabilities, this is crucial. So if we have, I mean, obviously, deaf and blind people will not follow a transcript, uh, will not follow captions as they appear, most likely the transcript, but nevertheless, it could be a little bit of help. And if the mobile devices can do it and why not the PC? And now we have the addon and we can switch this on demand, it would be a very welcome enhancement.
(Mario) Yeah, I have to say that regarding the addon, I tested it as well. It does work and it's in my case, for example, it speaks some of the stuff which wasn't spoken earlier in Zoom. And as Pawel said, you as the user can define whether you wish to have all the announcements spoken. If you don't want nothing spoken or you want to have the announcement as beeps or you want to use the custom mode. And so in order to do that, you press NVDA shift and A key to toggle between the modes.
And then when you're in the custom mode, you can use a bunch of different shortcuts which are basically like control NVDA and then a bunch of number keys to, you know, read the certain announcements. And yeah, it does work and it's really good. It's a free addon. So whoever needs it. Yeah, go and download it.
Audiomixer (Tanja) Ok, great, then what about if we would like to take some notes during a webinar or check maybe the emails at the same time or do whatever, there is a tool that can separate the audio in the headset, and it is from a Dutch company. Bart, you can tell us more about this?
(Bart) Yes, the name of the company is Babbage and it's a tiny tool that exactly does what you mention. What you can do in Windows is set the volume for each individual application, but you can not set the balance left, right in your stereo speakers. You cannot adjust the balance for individual applications.
And that's exactly what this little tool does: for all applications that produce audio on your computer, you can set the balance. So you could have your radio or your Skype call or your webinar set to zero percent balance, which means you would hear it only in your left ear of your stereo headset or speakers. And you could put your screen reader to 100, having it only in your right ear. And that's the whole ...
(Mario) purpose of the application, basically.
(Bart) Exactly.
(Tanja) Yes. Is it accessible?
(Bart) It works with JAWS and NVDA. What we found out is that it currently with the version we used for testing it did not work with Narrator nor with Supernova from Dolphin, which is strange because it looks like normal sliders. Like you would use in Windows. There seems nothing exceptional, but somehow JAWS and NVDA, which are only the tools which they also say they are supported, for some reason other screen readers didn't use it. With other screen readers it didn't work at the time of testing.
It is useful for me to have. You can concentrate a little bit better if the sound is coming from one side and the other sound is coming from another side, and they target it to people who are doing online or making phone calls all day and they have to follow a script on the screen. But it can also, as Tanja said, be useful for anybody using. We are using much more audio on the computer these months. So I'm a little bit surprised that this is not available in Windows, because it sounds so simple. Just provide next to the volume slider for each application, provide alos a balance slider. It's not there, so that's what they add and it's not very clear if they really launched this as a big project because as I saw, it was only in Dutch and it does not contain a lot of text. So it should be very easy to make it in other languages as well.
And it's a little bit hard to find on their website. And then, you require a key because it's not free software. And then you open the EXE file, you install it and it says, give me your licence. But there is nowhere a link where you can buy that licence key. So it has to be a bit more polished if they want to launch it to the bigger public, I think. And what set me off a little bit is the price. It is 149 Euro currently.
(Mario) Whaaaaaat?!
(Pawel) (hesitant) I would consider this if it had a couple more features. And I think what Windows also doesn't have and it could have, is the ability to route the audio from one app to another. Like on an actual mixer, which you can do sort of with virtual audio cable, which is also not free. I mean, it has a light version but there are some limitations, of course.
And so, for example, if I'm on a Skype call, I would like to play some music or present my screen reader talking, speaking something. I can do this. But the problem is that you also need to supply it with a sort of audio repeater so you can hear this yourself, because when you root this audio from one app to another, then your listeners can can hear it. The people you talk to on the other side can hear it, but you cannot anymore because it's not on your sound card anymore. And with the audio repeater, you bring it sort of back, but also you bring your own voice back. And it's a lot of technology, a lot of tinkering. And unless you're really determined to do this, this is not that easy. And I think on other platforms, I know that on Linux, this is a native feature in one of their audio drivers. I think the ALSA or somewhere And on a Mac there are apps that do it just fine.
I think Audio Hijack Pro,
(Xiver) Black Hole, also, I think.
(Pawel) So there are at least a couple solutions, but in Windows this is really, really tricky. And I think it would be great if there was a piece of software that would be maintained ...
(Xavier) Have you tried Reaper?
(Pawel) Not really
(Xavier) Because Reaper, that costs 60 euros I think, has a utility called rearouter or something like that, that does all kinds of rooting sound. For example, you could be recording this Zoom conference from Reaper to Zoom or from Zoom to Reaper. You can do all kinds of rootings, and it's a very, very, very nice and accessible, extremely accessible and accessibility is maintained by the whole community.
(Bart) But this is made for recording, if I'm not mistaken? This is not for life using your computer.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah. This is, I mean, I agree that the Reaper itself is is a great tool to use it. But, you know, this is a tool for sound engineers and for people who really do have a recording.
(Xavier) I was answering to Pawel's asking, not for words, but Reaper is much cheaper than what I think the price is, is very, very high of this audio mixer. I've heard some sound cards that included this this utility of managing every single application level and balance. But now I don't have this software.
(Mario) So there is, if you go deeper into the whole subject, there are basically DIY tools.
And so if you have some friend who is, you know, skilled enough with the soldering skills, it's possible to, you know, make your own kind of adaptor tools that you can solder and can do just that kind of thing. Because basically what this software does, it source audio splitter, basically, and it's possible to make this hardware source audio splitters for really very cheap.
And there are like tutorials how to do that for somebody who knows how to solder these things and you just plug that kind of adaptor into your PC, which you can get it for like 10 bucks, 20.
(Xavier) But you are speaking about hardware. Not software.
(Mario) Yeah, I'm talking about hardware stuff.
I understand why this tool was produced because any windows for the moment, which you only can do, but this is not you know, it's not solving the problem. You can reroute all the signal to mono. But that doesn't solve the problem.
So this audio source separation doesn't work, and I absolutely understand why they want to do this tool. And, as you said, for the call centres and people who are basically doing any kind of, let's say, even tech support or they're doing any kind of sales or whatever thing they do where they really require screen reader in one source and the phone on the other, so that the person who's on the other side of the line even doesn't have to be notified that you are using screen reader, et cetera, et cetera.
(Bart) That's exactly the use case, why they made it. And they even say somewhere that they were indeed fed up of making this hardware wiring thing, soldering what you say. So that's exactly the reason why they made this software.
(Mario) Sure. And I absolutely support the idea of having the tool. It is something that we as the blindness community, we need it. But come on, guys, this price is overkill. I mean, lower the price down to about like, I don't know, let's say 50 bucks, which is even a lot. But let's see, just by the example, instead of 150 euros, let's say that the software would be 50 euros per PC, which is still a lot. But OK.
(Bart) You will get 3 licences so you can use it on 3 computers and you can take the licence back.
(Mario) So you mean if OK. So if you pay, you get ...
(Bart) You can reactivate. You can deactivate on one machine and so you can have it run on 3 simultaneous computers and you don't lose keys if you sell your computer only maybe ...
(Xavier) So it's your price, Mario.
(Mario) (Laughing) So it is my price.
(Pawel) Organise group shopping for this.
But yeah, I also think that maybe maybe the reason why it's also hidden and mysterious and why it's so hard to find is maybe, I hope so, there will be some more options, like, for example, the ones I suggested coming up, and then it will be more global rollout, maybe.
(Xavier) Volume licencing or something like that.
(Mario) Yeah, well, but I mean, the overall idea is really cool, I see you know, the potential where it could be used, but, yeah, it's a bit pricey.
(Tanja) I agree.
(Bart) They will hear our feedback and they will maybe come back to us.
(Tanja) I hope so.
(Mario) Actually, it is the same guys who are making the addon for NVDA for Citrix, and they were I remember they were showing that in the Sightcity 2 years ago. So I'm not doubting their programming skills, but, yeah, you could, guys, a little bit restructure your marketing skills.
(Tanja) OK. Hoping that they will hear what we say. We can go to the next topic.
Facebook improves accessibility on the main site (Tanja) Facebook accessibility has improved much, and you notice that, Mario? So usually as screen reader users, we often use the mobile Facebook, for those who are using Facebook, because the native interface was not very accessible until recently.
Now they completely changed the interface and do you want to tell us more?
(Mario) Yeah, basically. So what happened is that at the end of July, Facebook made the announcement on their Facebook accessibility page that they restructured completely or their native interface from their Facebook website. So right now, when you go on the Facebook with whatever browser you want to use, whether it's Firefox or Chrome or new Edge Cromium, you will get the same experience, but what's really happening is that right now everything is being spoken as it should be. So first of all, the scrolling of the feeds is really easy. The screen reader is not jumping, as it used to be. All the elements are being structured properly with the headings. So when you go, for example, from post to post, they are being shown as heading 3. If you want to read the comments, then they show up. You have to, of course, click on the comments button that they show up. So once they show up and you want to read just the comments they're shown as heading 5. We also have the ARIA labels so you can jump from section to section and all the things are also being spoken live. So in case you like your, I don't know, whatever reading some posts and somebody contacts you on the Messenger, you're getting immediate notification that you're being messaged. You are getting the message from who is the message and if you're not doing nothing else at a certain time I think that the content of the message is even being spoken. But then you can easily just open like the part of the Facebook, a messenger, and you can read the whole conversation and then respond back. And so everything works as it should be working from a long, long time ago. Because I for many reasons and kind of because of my private stuff, of the music that I'm doing, lots of time spending on the Facebook and also a lot of the accessibility related stuff is coming in from the various Facebook groups, et cetera, et cetera. So I'm spending quite a lot of time there. But yeah, if you're using it, you will notice now that the overall experience improved like 300 percent really. And we have a link about it in the show notes.
What I really like about that article is the structuring of the article.
Like the article goes really very, very deep into details from the, well, it's also from the developers point of view where they're saying really for each of the points which libraries they used, which part of the code they had to integrate in certain parts of the Facebook website in order to get the stuff being spoken. So, yeah, it's it's the whole interface is much more more responsive than it used to be. It's much more faster.
And I noticed that even with the mobile apps as well, like the mobile apps are also much faster than before.
So I would say that the whole, you know, accessibility integration caused the even better code optimisation for the whole interface, which is really good.
(Tanja) That is great, because also some of the options were not available in the mobile Facebook and we never could see some of the functionalities. Or maybe you wanted to share publication from someone and then you shared only the link by coincidence in the mobile Facebook, not the entire status from the person, but only the link. And then suddenly you discover, no, I shared only link, but I wanted to share everything. Because the mobile for some reason did not have all the functionality as the native interface.
(Mario) And then you also have the inconsistencies with the mobile interface that, for example, you would load the same mobile interface in two different browsers, and then, for example, the mobile interface in Firefox would be the old one, while, if you would launch it in Chrome, you would get the features that you would not even notice that there are there before because the Firefox was using the old interface.
So, yeah, with this new one, everything is accessible as it should be. And, you know, everyone can see them the same way. And that's great.
(Tanja) That is great. Did you notice also some changes for the groups?
(Mario) In terms of notifications, you're getting all the notifications which are also involving the groups. So if there are any updates in the groups where you're a member, you can see that it will tell you, like, for example, you have 5 new group updates. So then you click on them and then at the top, it's showing you the most recent groups that are being updated. And you can see which groups have new posts. So it will say, like name of the group has 3 new posts or whatever.
(Tanja) And I also read that they created new keyboard shortcuts that you can see if you type shift questionmark. So I tried this and I initially didn't work, but I had to use the keyboard pass through option in NVDA, which is insert F2 to enable NVDA to disable its shortcuts. And then it worked. And I could see the list of current available shortcuts in that page because apparently they're changing also on the page to page or what is shown to you in that moment.
And also they say you can use J to go to the next post. But again, you have to press the same shortcut to pass through. You can not just use J because it will do something else with our screen readers. But you have also headings and ARIA landmarks which you can use like the navigation for the menu on the top. The main area is for the posts and then "create post" is in a separate region. So it is well structured really. The focus is not lost. And I noticed before that very often the screen reader was slowed down in the moment when the Facebook was active. Now it is not anymore. It is working really well, even though I don't use Facebook so often. But I checked it quickly and it's really a pleasant experience now.
Any other feed back for this?
(Bart) Maybe to complete a little bit. The shortcut in JAWS to pass through the key strokes is JAWS key, plus the number 3. And I heard in the recent podcast from Vispero that when they launched the new interface for Facebook, JAWS had something on board for Facebook that you did not have to do this.
You could use the j and Facebook unlike all other websites, would perform its own function, rather than the default what JAWS would do in all other websites.
So they had some programming to make use of these one letter shortcuts. And there was a temporary interruption when they launched the new interface. And they say in one of the next JAWS releases, it will come back so that you don't have to push this key combination to pass through the key stroke.
Microsoft Accessibility Fundamentals (Tanja) The next topic I would like to mention that Microsoft has opened the accessibility badges for the public. So first of all, some background information.
Microsoft has a learning platform where you can learn about Microsoft products for free. And after completing the modules, you can get the badge and that you can share on your social media, like LinkedIn or paste in a CV or email. Wherever you prefer.
And Microsoft has partnered with Credly’s Acclaim platform that awards badges for certifications that you achieved. That badge is used also for completing Microsoft trainings.
(Pawel) Yeah, I have heard about this concept of open badges in a webinar on user experience design. And apparently there are more corporations that are involved in this.
And the idea is to somehow replace the CV, the classical CV, with a sort of gamification system where you complete tasks and you get these badges, as Tanja mentioned, and instead of presenting your CV where you just write and this and this year I worked for this and that company, you can show your experience by means of these badges because there you can certify, OK, I worked for this and that company. I was involved in this project. And through the work in the project, I have either gained or demonstrated this, this, this, this and that skill. And this is more valuable because then you can collect more seemingly less significant, but in the long run, quite useful certifications for really small things, which sort of matter when you're looking for a job later because, well, you're not just posting about the companies you've worked for, but you're actually demonstrating that somebody has seen you performing well in this and that task and you can be trusted with this job. So this is a really interesting system.
(Tanja) Yes, exactly. It's an interesting system and now you can also have a badge for the accessibility fundamentals training on Microsoft Learning Platform, they have 4 modules. They are: “Introduction to Disability and Accessibility” where you can learn the basics. This is especially interesting for designers, developers, not only this module, but especially the others. There is also “Microsoft Accessibility Features in Microsoft Tools” and “Creating Accessible Content with Microsoft 365”. Maybe this would be more for editors. And also “Digital Accessibility”. This would be more for developers and designers.
So it is one way to show that you have learnt something about accessibility.
(Bart) What I like is that accessibility is part of the much broader curriculum. It's not a separate thing and it's really integrated. So that's the way forward, I think. That you can find it between all other modules, you find a chapter on accessibility. I think that's how it has to be.
(Tanja) Aha, yeah. And it's great because, unfortunately, we know that at university, especially, maybe older generations, did not learn about accessibility at that time or…
(Bart) Even the younger generations, I'm afraid.
(Tanja) Yes, maybe, it depends on university and countries, but it's a great way to encourage people to do the same. Initially, this was only internal to the staff of Microsoft, but they decided to make it available to everyone so we can take advantage of this.
(Xavier) It's good news that big companies are publishing and making open this kind of material.
(Tanja) Aha, yeah, that's great.
(Mario) Yeah.
Android 11 accessibility (Tanja) Android 11 has been launched, do you have some feedback, Android guys?
(Mario) Well, only from the stuff we heard and read, because eventually my phone is…
(Tanja) Ah, your phone is old, ok.
(Mario) My phone is old, so…
(Tanja) I forgot.
(Mario) Yeah, I didn't get the Android 11, I will get it when I get the new phone, which will be in the next few months.
(Bart) Your phone is not old, but your Android is old.
(Mario) Yeah, well, (laughing)
Actually, yeah, my phone will be like 2 years old, but it's not receiving the updates officially.
(Tanja) It lasts really short on Android.
(Mario) Yeah, but that's how it is.
Well basically now they're saying like if you're buying any kind of new device, you are very lucky if you can get the updates for the next 3 years.
(Xavier) That's the Android world. Because, not in iOS.
(Mariol) Uh, we will see, guys. I heard that the iPhone 10 is kind of a piece of rubbish. It's no longer possible to buy it.
(Xavier) Hahaha, I have an iPhone 8.
(Bart) Let's not go that route
(everyone laughs)
(Tanja) He is saying that because I have iPhone 10, you know, and I remember I bought it 2 years ago and a few months after they said, yeah, well, we will stop with the production of iPhone 10 and some other models because of this and this reason. So, you know, it was just few months and they decided to decommission with the iPhone 10.
(Mario) Yeah. It's no longer possible to buy it.
(Pawel) On a happier note, Samsung has declared that they will provide 3 years worth of updates and this even for the mid-range Galaxy A models. So I think there is a light of hope in this tunnel.
(Tanja) 3 years, wow. (laughing)
(Pawel) Always better than 2? Because I think the standard for mid-range devices was 2 if they were really kind to you, and 1 if they were just an average brand. So yeah, I think Samsung is really moving forward with this and that's really great.
(Mario) Yeah. And from the overall statistics, we can see that the update cycle for the Samsung devices really improved a lot in terms of the delivery. I was just reading the stats today morning and the Samsung devices were one of the top 3. So that's that's cool to see. But yeah. Speaking of the Andoid 11, so yeah, it got released officially last week.
And all the features that we mentioned before in the previous episodes relating to the accessibility are now being released, but you have to enable them if you want to use them. So, for example, the multi finger gestures have to be enabled in the TalkBack settings. Otherwise you will not see them and you will think it's not working.
But no, you have to re-enable them through the TalkBack settings and then you will find that they work, though some of them are still unassigned. So for example, some of the 3 or 4 finger gestures are not assigned and people sometimes I've seen the posts where people are saying, oh, it's not working. Well, it's not that it's not working. It's because they're not assigned to do a proper whatever actions ...
(Bart) And can you assign them.
(Mario) Yes, you can.
So it's possible to assign them for for certain action. What I think it will happen and that's usually what we are seeing is that, well, they're saying that at the beginning of October we should be seeing the launch of Pixel 5, and that might be one of the new devices I will be getting depending on the price, of course.
But usually when the new Pixel devices come, we have seen in the past and I think it will continue to be like that, is that the version of the Android Accessibility Suite will be updated as well. Because we have seen the last update in April when we got the new Braille keyboard introduced.
So now comes the second part of the year where we should see the new update for the under the accessibility suite. And I think it will come somewhere in October or latest November. But I'm sure that Pixel 5, when it comes out, it will be on Android 11. Right now Pixel devices going from Pixel 2 are able to operate Android 11. Now of course, keep in mind that you get the same experience as the iPhone users.
So if the device is older, the overall experience will be more sluggish. So don't expect the Android 11 to run the same way on a Pixel 2 and Pixel 4 or even the 4 A, which just got released like a month ago.
So, yeah, that's except the Pixel devices they're saying and that lots of devices are now even waiting or they're in the finishing beta stages for Andoid 11 like few of the OnePlus phones, also some Xiaomi devices and some Oppo phones and some Realme phones. And who knows who else will be on on the updates list. Probably old Nokias as well.
So there will be a bunch of phones which will get updated to Android 11, which which is really good. I'm really happy to see that also the OnePlus released the Nord phone, which really has a good spec, it's kind of their mid-ranger phone, but with really good specs. Right now in Europe, you can get 2 versions of the Nord, one is 128 and 256 version. And besides the storage, the difference is also in Ram, the 128 version comes with the eight gigs of rum and 256 version comes with the 12 gigs of RAM. Which is like insane when you when you think that, like, our Pcs are having mostly less RAM than mobile phones, it's insane how much resources they have.
But yeah, it's also a 5G compatible phone and it has quite good CPU as well.
It's not the top CPU, but it's still a good one. And it has fast charging, which is really good. They're using very good fast chargers. So, for example, you can get like the batteries is 4500 miliampères. They're saying that you can get from 0 to 50 percent in less than 30 minutes. Which is great. So you probably would have full phone in a little bit more than an hour or an hour and a half the most.
Yeah, so it's cool.
And I saw that also the OnePplus Nord will get also the Android 11. So that's also one of the possibilities that I could get. Though what gets me worried with all the phones that are not Pixel phones are the security updates.
So what Pawel was saying at the beginning now, the update cycle is really important in terms of, you know, getting really stable security updates, which usually when you when you get these security updates, they are mostly also having the accessibility fixes.
So if there is something that's been broken or whatever, it's also coming up patched in the security updates. So now it's really important to get the phone if you're getting new phones, to have the phone, which is receiving regular security updates as well.
Because right now before the thing was that, you know, we were depending on the major operating system updates relating to Android, which is now not that much the case, but as the Android 11 really came up with huge changes which were not presented before, it's now important for people to get the phone if they are getting the newer phone of course, to get the phone, which is Android 11 compatible, and then you would have to get the phone, which is receiving regular security updates. I don't know, Pawel, do you have anything else to add?
(Pawel) I think there are 2 separate things. The first is the major OS updates. So Android 9 to 10, Android 10 to 11. And another thing are security updates. These are usually distributed for longer period of time. So if anyone is worried about that, no no no, the security updates, they might be coming out a bit later. So for example, I received mine for a given month at the end of this month and not at the beginning. But they will be there and I think they'll be supported for much longer than the major OS updates.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, that's true.
new version of Lookout (Tanja) Google launched the new version of the application Lookout, which is a similar application, like Seeing AI on iOS. Did you have the chance to try it?
(Pawel) I did. So, first of all, the great news is that it is no longer exclusive to the English speaking market and certain phone models. These times you can get it on the Play Store pretty much anywhere you are and with any device you have, as long as it's running a minimum Android 6 and 2 gigabytes of RAM. So I'm able to find it in the Polish Play Store on my Motorola One. And I installed it like that, and the biggest news right after this one is the fact that there have been new languages added to the official support, and that is German, French, Italian, Spanish, and I believe one of the Asian languages. But I'm not sure right now anyway, as far as Europe is concerned, the most important, so to speak, is the biggest European languages have been included. But even if your language is not supported, still feel free to download it and experiment. Because I've been trying this with some Polish texts and it was pretty successful. It even managed to reproduce the Polish characters quite well. So it's not really useless if you speak something else than the languages that are supported.
So this you can try. What is also introduced is a new food labelling mode where it no longer only recognises products by the barcodes, but also by the photos of the front of the package or any part of the package. It compares against its own database of products and displays the result or rather speaks it aloud and it worked.
So first, when you run it, you have to download a database of approximately 250 megabytes s,o you can use it offline.
And then when you start it, you just point the camera at the product and it will speak what it is. I tried it with some of the products available here in Austria and it recognises some of them, at least some kinds of tea, some sweets, some what was it else, some kind of drinks. So there are products available in Europe as well that I recognised.
And yeah, you can pretty much play with it, and it's by quality, I would say it is quite similar to Envision AI and it's free of charge. For the time being, it is my to go app for reading anything short for sure. So any labels on bottles or anything like that. And it does its job quite well. It tries to adjust the light automatically. So when it's too dark, it will turn it on. If it's too bright, it will turn it off. Sometimes it's annoying because it doesn't get it right every time and sometimes it's trying to scan with no flash in total darkness for a longer period of time. But when it works, then it does a really fine job at reading the text. It will rather read less, but more accurately, then read more and with some gibberish in the middle. So it's this kind of OCR app. Towards the end of the show, you should be able to hear my demo of it, so you'll also be able to experience it in action. But meanwhile, you can already grab your phone and try and download it.
(Mario) Yeah, I tried it as well on my phone and I have to say that it's pfff. You cannot compare it to the Envision AI. Sadly Envision AI showed as really inaccurate on my phone I have to say. And if I have to compare today, I'm really sorry that I paid even that discount price for Envision because it really doesn't work on my phone, as it should be. And the other free apps, such as Look Out or even Speak that we demoed earlier in the show work really well.
What I tried also was with the Look out also, as Pawel said, with the food labelling. So it does work well.
The recognition mode where it's able to recognise the stuff is the fastest from all the apps that I have ever seen. Like you instantly point the camera at something and you're getting almost an instant answer about what is it? And the level of recognition is really, really good.
So you can basically, like, wave your phone around where you are and it will tell you what it's seeing, so it's like really like interesting experience because you can get like you can wave around with the phone and get described scene like what's going on or who is there or what's in front of you on the left side. As I said, it's really well recognising the object. The document scanning mode is also really good. I also like the fact that it's reading less, but it's more accurate. However, the currency modes which they have is currently just recognising U.S. dollars, which is not accurate for us. But I believe that it should get updated in in the future. So it recognises Euros as well.
(Pawel) Coming back to the recognition mode, I remember it being quite inaccurate in the previous versions, actually, in an office where I used to work, it used to see animals for some reason, some cats and dogs which were not there, obviously. (laughing)
(Xavier) Really?
(Pawel) Yeah, yeah. And it confused computer screens for windows. So it was quite funny.
But nowadays I'm reading on Twitter that apparently people tried to walk in the street with this and it would actually read out the building numbers as they passed.
Somebody of my friends who tested it mentioned that it will actually read things in the street as long as you stop for a while so it can do the recognition and pass you the accurate result because it will have a difficult time reading anything on the go. I need to test this, actually. I need to see how this will cooperate with my phone.
(Bart) So no bus numbers when they move?
(Pawel) Probably not, but I'll have to see, maybe I'll be lucky with this.
I guess the idea here is that it yeah. It wants to provide something accurate, something human readable. So it will rather not tell you something than tell you random numbers or random digits or random characters. So maybe that's why it worked like that. But I will try myself, so maybe we'll have something more to say about this.
(Xavier) So summarising: the ones who have tried Look Out and Seeing AI, which you prefer?
(Mario) Well, one is for one platform and the other is for, you know, for the other.
But in terms of the features, I would say they're more or less there. Maybe there are some things that Seeing AI does a little bit better. For example, I really like the fact that when you are doing the barcode scanning with the Seeing AI, you have that audio signal pointing you where you need to go with your phone.
(Bart) You hear that you are close by.
(Mario) Yeah. Look Out is kind of supposed to do the same thing, but it doesn't. Well, at least on my phone, it didn't provide the sound feedback.
So I had to, you know, just manoeuvre with my hand around until I didn't find the information, which I was searching for. But yeah, overall, let's say that they're more or less the same in terms of being accurate, and we can say that kind of Look Out is well let's say the official replacement for Seeing AI on the Android, because we really don't know if Microsoft will ever release the Seeing AI on Android.
And, yeah, I mean, it would be good that they release it. But as we are having tons of apps which are doing already the same or similar kind of functions already on Android, I'm not sure that it will be you know, that people will catch up on it as they would do it earlier if Microsoft would have released the stuff earlier.
(Pawel) I think Seeing AI has still a couple more features. For instance, you can define a language for the short text mode, which I think, is a good thing to do. Because with so many languages support, it's better for the OCR to know which it should recognise to be more accurate. It does more currencies, that's for sure. It does the photo descriptions where you can actually explore the photos, which is also quite nifty. However, I think that for the time being, there is no reason for Android users to cry over there not being Seeing AI.
(Mario) Sure, yeah.
(Pawel) And I think, the approach of Google with the recognition of photos of products is quite smart because they have their own shopping aplet on the Google. So if you Google for any kind of product, there is the shopping tab which displays some basic information about the product and the links to where to buy it. And it has a quite nice and quite extended database of barcodes already. So as soon as they officially start in more countries, I think this will be even faster than any bar or QR code scanning app, because you just take a photo of a product or just wave your phone actually over a product and it will be able to tell what it is simply by comparing against their database, which is quite huge already.
(Tanja) Ok, so for all of you who would like to know more about the new features in Look Out, you can listen the demo at the end of this episode.
Saving tagged PDF documents in Google Chrome (Tanja) Chrome started to generate accessible PDF documents from version 85, which was launched at the end of August, and this is a great news for all screen reader users, because up until now, when we were saving the PDF document from browser like Google Chrome, we would get an untagged PDF document, meaning that headings, lists, alternative texts were not kept. We would have more simple text layout that would remind Notepad. Visually it would have all the necessary visual elements, but for us it was not announced, the tags were not there. Now the tags are kept, but it is not still automatically there for all users. It is an experimental feature. You need to enable it by typing a string that I will not say now because it is a little bit complicated and maybe I'll do a mistake. So in the show notes, we will put the link of the post that was published on the Chrome blog where you can find the string and you can just open that string, by pressing CTRL+L and pasting the string. You will have a new page where you will find the list of all different experimental functionalities in Google Chrome and one of them will be “Export Tagged PDF”. You have a combo box where you have to enable it. By default it is set default. So the option is called default and there is enable and disable. Of course, if you would like to have this feature, you have to activate, enable. And at the end of the page there is the relaunch browser button which you have to activate in order to relaunch the browser, and then you will have it there. So then the function works well because initially I saved the PDF from Chrome and realised that the PDF was not tagged. And after, I discovered that I have to paste this string. I also tried the same in Edge Chromium. As we know that now Edge is Chromium based, and it works. So the same string you can paste in Edge, you will get the same, absolutely the same page. With these extra functions.
You enable it and it works. It gives tagged PDF. This is a great progress because it will be by default wherever you work or you are. So maybe also in organisations that use Edge Chromium or Google Chrome at one point will be there by default and you can have an accessible PDF. I did not try - to be honest - with forms. I wonder how it works with forms. But…
(Mario) One of the things which you have in the experimental options there is the feature to save the forms as well.
(Tanja) Exactly. But I was wondering if the tags of the forms are kept.
(Mario) I don't know. I haven't tried it. I haven't tried it as well with the forms, so I don't know if ...
(Tanja) Yeah, I saw that one. I think that one was for filled out forms. Meaning if you filled out a form in the page and you would like to save a PDF with your answers. And that was the functionality, which is also interesting, of course, if you would like to save your answers, if it is a longer form. But I have not tried that one.
(Xavier) One of the things I was wondering, was just this. If that Chrome based browsers would have this.
(Mario) Yeah. So, for example, if you would launch the new Microsoft Edge.
(Xavier) Yeah, that's right. That's what Tanja said.
(Mario) Yeah. You would have the same feature.
(Xavier) Ok, and there are other Chrome based browsers like Opera, I think, is a Chrome based browser also. I don't know if it will have. And one other thing I wonder about, is what will happen with not well formed documents. I mean, because this is only a translation from HTML documents or XHTML documents to PDF documents. So if a document is not well formed…
(Mario) You will have the same structure.
(Tanja) The same. Yeah the same. Yes.
(Xavier) But the same bad structure.
(Tanja) Yes, exactly.
(Mario) You can use this for example for some audits for the websites, whatever. Meaning if you, if you encounter whatever website or part of the website, that is not accessible, that it is not structured, you can make the PDF of those parts of the websites and if something is not properly tagged, it will show later in the PDF that it's not properly tagged. So if that was your question.
(Xavier) Yeah, that was my question, of course. So this doesn't solve the problem of accessibility. This just puts the accessibility on the PDF that as you could find it on HTML document.
(Tanja) Exactly. But unfortunately, with PDF, I find that many tools do not keep accessibility tags.
(Xavier) Of course. Yes.
(Tanja) I also tried the Microsoft to PDF the other functionality that we have if we are using Windows. I also tried that one and that one does not keep the accessibility tags. So now, for example, if you do the same in Firefox, you have only Microsoft to PDF and there you don't have the accessibility tags. In my honest personal opinion, I think that we should go rather to HTML and not to PDF. But the reality is that many organisations are using PDF and PDFs are still very important and therefore it's good that we have some progress in this aspect. Even though I personally would prefer to get rid of the PDF.
(Xavier) My personal opinion is like yours, like your honest personal opinion. We should go to HTML or XHTML better than PDF.
(Mario) EPUB.
(Xavier) Of course. Of course EPUB. Yeah, also.
(Mario) Yeah, sure. For example, if you're working with any kind of publishing tools or for example, I work as a transcriber, all the media that we are getting, all the books that we are getting from the publishers come in the PDF forms.
(Xavier) Really?
(Mario) Basically there is nothing you can do about it.
(Xavier) Incredible.
(Pawel) The implications here are also quite wide when we talk about tools obtaining the ability to tag PDFs because quite often when we think about all the PDFs, we get books and menus in the canteens or menus in restaurants or bank statements or your phone bills. These PDFs are usually generated out of some already existing accessible content into PDF. And I heard of cases where actually there are tiny instances of chromium or LibreOffice running on the server responsible for generating these PDFs of the content. So when Chromium suddenly enables tagging of PDF by default and LibreOffice does as well, or which we'll be talking about in a moment, I guess, this means that a lot of PDFs will be now accessible by default without the author is doing anything. So I think it's a it's a Win-Win situation and I hope more tools will incorporate this.
Accessibility Checker in Libre Office (Tanja) You introduced well, the next topic, which is LibreOffice Y, introduced to the accessibility checker for testing the accessibility of the content in the documents. The checker analyzes according to the PDF/UA universal accessibility standard and users who are using this application for creating documents can also check the accessibility now.
(Pawel) Yes, so first, we, as already mentioned, while exporting something to PDF, you now have the option to retain the tagging, which is, of course, a great thing to check before you export. And secondly, there are some basic checkers for basic mistakes in accessibility, in documents that you create with the Open Office Suite, the Libre Office, Open office, I think are sort of sister projects or one is a fork of the other. So I confuse them sometimes. But LibreOffice now has these checkers and these are of course, alternative descriptions for any graphical content. This are checkers for whether the document has a proper title set, whether the language is set, whether you are using actual numbering and not fake numbering. That means not just the numbers, put 1, 2, 3, but whether they have been checked by the system as actual points. It also makes sure that all the links have some kind of descriptions so they are not just pure links that lead somewhere but we don't know where. And there is also a check for contrast between the text and the background and also the headings structure. Whether they're there and the order is retained and I guess some more criteria are checked. So this basic things can be now checked before we save our LibreOffice document.
(Tanja) Ok, but did you have the chance to try this?
(Pawel) I am quite new to LibreOffice because we use it at work where I'm now and well, I haven't tested the checkers yet, but to look around LibreOffice, it basically is accessible. It's based on Java and need to install the latest version of Java because it includes the Java Access Bridge, which is an essential component to interact between any Java applet and screen readers, and then you can do things with it. I was able to write a simple document and save it. That was OK. The problem that I'm running into at the moment and I don't know how to fix is when there is a sheet in I think it's called Libre Calc.
(Mario) Yeah. It's the application which replaces the Excel?
(Pawel) Exactly. That's the one. There is a sheet in there and it has some protected cells, so you cannot edit them. And for some reason I don't seem to be able to navigate to them with the keyboard. And also we try to have a sighted colleague and we couldn't navigate with the mouse and somebody else checked for me on Linux.
Apparently everything is fine there and I'm using it in Windows. So perhaps there is some kind of bug that we discovered. But yeah, the basic idea is that it should be accessible. So apart from that, it now also makes documents accessible, which I think is great.
(Tanja) Yeah, this is great. And which screen reader you use?
(Pawel) NVDA. But I think it should also work with JAWS because in the latest JAWS update, there was a mention of a bug fix for some kind of error with LibreOffice.
(Mario) There was. Yeah, true. Yeah.
(Tanja) Ok
(Mario) I didn't install it on my PC, but from what I was able to see from the structure of the apps and how it works, it should be fairly similar to the OpenOffice.
(Pawel) Yeah, because as I said, I think LibreOffice is some kind of fork or continuation of OpenOffice.
(Mario), So OpenOffice is no longer maintained?
(Pawel) Either it is or it is a separate branch. I think there was some kind of ... they have some kind of similarity. So I believe the code base will be quite similar.
Laundry Lens, (Tanja) I would propose to change to something completely different, for an application for reading care labels, the application is called Laundry Lense. It is available for iOS 13 onwards. And you can use it to read the care labels from your clothes and learn how to wash it or iron it. All other symbols are read out. VoiceOver reads how many symbols the application was able to recognise, real time, so, it says 1 symbol, 2 symbols, 3 symbols. And when you think you are ready, you go to the instructions and you hear the instructions of the symbols and it works well.
I think I more or less know how to wash and iron my clothes, but I have to say that I was surprised when I discovered on one jeans where it was written iron up to 100 degrees, which I never thought about. But yes, the label says that I have to iron up to 100 degrees. I think it's a very useful application and I would really recommend it to everyone. I hope that you will have it also at one point on Android. It is free of charge. It is accessible. The only thing that I found is that once I go to the instructions of the symbols, I don't have a back button, at least in the version that I have. I hope that this will be fixed. So I have really to close the application.
(Xavier) Did you try with a 2 finger gesture?
(Pawel) 2 fingers scrubbing on the screen.
(Xavier) Did you try with this gesture?
(Tanja) Yes, I tried and it didn't work. There was the sound, you know, this sound when it tells you, OK, not possible. For me, I couldn't go back.
But well, anyway, I close it from the list of applications and I return back to the application again to read a new care label. For me, it works quite well.
(Mario) Yeah, maybe it needs some fixing for the future.
(Pawel) I think the accessibility was also introduced fairly recently and I think somebody on Applevis also commented that they had this back issue. So maybe that is still something on their to do list.
(Tanja) Aha, Ok, well, but already that we have it, I think, it's great.
(Xavier) Well, simple things are good.
(Tanja) Yeah, somebody needed to work on this. I think we don't have a similar application because it is quite simple. The symbols are universal. The application can recognise the symbol and it just tells you what it is.
Lego Braille coming to European countries (Tanja) Lego Braille will be launched to more European countries in the following months. Pawel, you have information about this?
(Pawel) Basically Lego have been trialling the set of Lego braille bricks, which are the bricks that are supposed to help children in learning Braille. Hmm. The idea is quite simple. You have Lego bricks where the studs are arranged in forms of letters, digits and characters of the Braille alphabet. At the same time, there are the black print equivalents printed on the bricks so that the sighted kids can also play together. I'm not really sure if those are tactile. That would be useful as well, but if they are not, then they are not.
And for the time being, the languages that are supported are French, English, German, Dutch, I think Norwegian, Portuguese. And I think that's it. I hope I haven't skipped any of the languages available.
And the support is coming up for some of the countries in which these languages are spoken but not come from. So, for example, Belgium, for example, Austria is also getting support here. And the idea is that the sets will be given away for free to the organisations that support blind people. And in most cases, these are the national associations. And then they will be distributed further to schools or organisations that will teach the children and let them play with those. So they're more designed for being given to organisations than to individual people. But they'll be there and they'll be for sure very, very useful to many children. And I think it's a really interesting initiative.
We already mentioned Lego in one of our previous episodes because of the accessible manuals that they put up on how to build some of their sets. And we have also recently discussed with some friends that actually there are schools for the blind in Europe and that teach children how to programme the Lego technique's robots. Oh, this is like the introduction to programming for children in which the robot can be controlled. It can go right, back and forth, from left and right, and it can do so in loops or it can do some other movements. And well, apparently the official language for programming is not accessible. The official programming environment, for the time being, there is some unofficial one which works. But apparently this is not really useful when you, for example, want to play in Lego techniques competitions.
So hopefully Lego will also tackle that. But definitely they're interested in more accessible products and more accessibility in general in their structure, which is really great.
(Xavier) I don't know if it's an adaptation of scratch or something like that.
(Pawel) It probably is, but you're playing with physical objects this time.
(Xavier) Yeah, yeah.
(Tanja) Ok, this is great. I think I would be really excited about this if I…
(Mario) If you would be 5 years old.
(Tanja) Exactly. (laughing)
Even though I would like to see them. I would like to see them now.
(Pawel) It's quite curious, because apparently there is a whole methodology. The whole teaching methodology developed around this Braille bricks and there will be a Facebook group for teachers to share practises and how to teach with these bricks. So I would be interested to see what kind of buildings can be built of Braille, like, how would that look like? Probably they would be forming some messages or words or something like that. But given that you can be really creative with Lego, I'm really curious what possibly could come out of it and what creative solutions the teachers will find.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah. Let's wait. Let's wait and see.
(Tanja) Yeah, exactly.
Anouncement of Sight Tech Global (Tanja) The last topic for this episode is the new virtual event is Sight Tech Global that will be on the 2nd and 3rd December this year.
The registration is already open and free of charge. The demonstrations will be live and on demand. So you can also watch it afterwards. And there is a pro pass for 25 dollars for the admission to breakout sessions and interviews with speakers, so you can get even more sessions with 25 dollars pass which is not a lot of money if you would like to have some more information. On the website, we can find the list of some speakers that are already announced. Some of them are the founder and software engineer of Seeing AI Saqib Shaikh. I don't know if I pronounce it correctly. Saqib Shaikh that Bart interviewed in April last year at an event in Brussels.
They will have also from Orcam the co-founder Amnon Shashua. I'm not sure if the name is pronounced in this way. And Cecily Morrison researcher from Microsoft that is one of the researchers who is behind the Project Torino that led to Code Jumper. On the website of the Sight Tech Global we can also hear the podcast of Microsoft Research where she gives the interview and tells how she worked on Project Torino and some other projects. So it was very interesting for me the interview. There will be many other speakers. So just check the website and after registration you get the notifications by email. I think this will be a very interesting event and I'm really looking forward to it. It will be from 8 to noon, from 8 in the morning to noon PST time zone which for Europe is around 5. Starting from 5 PM at least in +1 time zone.
(Mario) So from 5 to 9.
(Tanja) Afternoon for Europe. Yes,
(Xavier) I only want to ask, why have we had to wait for the pandemic to teach us to organise virtual things? Because this thing and the CSUN thing also and more things like this, I will be able to attend this thing. But if I have to hire a hotel and to pay for the for the flight ticket and those things, I wouldn't be able to go.
(Mario) Absolutely.
(Tanja) Exactly, and it is much more accessible.
(Xavier) Even if I have to pay 25 dollars, I can pay them.
(Tanja) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
(Xavier) It is more accessible.
(Tanja) Exactly. And not only the money, also you don't have to think about the taxi and all the things who will help you there, you know, all practical things that we have to…
(Xavier) I am thinking of going to the restaurant every day that it's a difficult thing.
And of course you don't have the positive things of meeting new people. That's different. But I can afford not meeting new people. I mean, I prefer these virtual things. At least when the pandemic goes off, when we cross this difficult period, we could have both possibilities, virtual and real things. At the same time.
(Mario) Sure. I hope these kind of things will stay as well.
(Xavier) OK, yeah.
(Tanja) Yeah. Yeah I agree. I fully agree.
Demo: Lookout app Jingle: demo time. Time of a demonstration
(Pawel) Welcome back. It's time for the demo of the Lookout app that was already promised before, which is the app from Google that resembles the popular app by Microsoft, available on iOS, called Seeing AI, as well as many other OCR and recognition apps. So as you see, the choice is wide and now extended by Google, extended even so much that now the app, as it was said in the show, is available on practically every phone with Android 6 and 2 gigabytes of RAM and probably in every country as well. So you can go into your Play Store, search for Lookout, spelled L o o k o u t as one word and find it and install it and enjoy it. But before you do, let's take a look at what this app can really do.
(Talkback) Lookout, explore mode.
(Pawel) Ok, the app consists of 5 tabs signifying 5 modes.
It can work in food labelling mode, the exploring mode, the quick read mode, the scanning mode and the currency recognition mode, which currently only works with the US dollar. I will show you all of these modes except the last one, of course, and we'll see how good this really is. And you can find out for yourself compared to the other apps that are out there. Oh, maybe it's good enough as a complementary tool to everything you already have. You'll decide for yourself.
So going from the top of the screen on the left, we have
(Talkback) Select ... (some beeps and clickx) Signed in as Paweł Masarczyk.
(Pawel) The typical button that we can find in all Google Apps where we can see with which account we're currently logged in. I don't think Google makes use of any cloud so that we can retrieve some data somewhere later. I might be wrong, though, but it's there and we need to be logged in in order to use the app.
(Talkback) Start button.
(Pawel) Then there is a start button, which we can use to start the app and it turns later into "stop" because when there is a lot happening around, the app can bombard us with notifications of what it sees. So it's sometimes better to pause it for a while.
(Talkback) Recents, button.
(Pawel) This is a button for a history of recently recognised items so we can see everything we've scanned up to a certain amount, I think it's the last 20 and take a closer look. Copy it, share it, delete it, do anything with it.
(Talkback) Selected, Explore Beta mode, one of 5.
(Pawel) Yeah. This is what I already mentioned before. So the tabs that represent the different modes the app can work in. The first one is the explore mode. The explore mode allows us to have a phone, look around our surroundings and describe what it sees, either the items or the text that is written on them, which is quite useful, either at home or when we're out and about.
(Talkback) Food label, beta mode, 2 of 5.
(Pawel) This is the newly presented food labelling mode in which the app is able to recognise the product that we presented with either by their barcodes or by the photos of the products in view. When we run this mode for the first time, we are asked to download a database of products of approximately 250 megabytes. The download doesn't take that long if we have a modern connexion at our disposal. Once we do that, we can use the app offline. So even if there is no Internet, that should work pretty fine. The database is not really rich in European products yet, but there are certainly many that all of us use on a daily basis that will be recognised. So try your luck and take a look.
(Talkback) Quick Read Mode, 3 of 5.
(Pawel) This would be the equivalent of the short text mode of Seeing AI for those of you who ever used it, and it lets you read the text as soon as you point the camera at it. So it's rather for recognising what we have in our hand rather than actually reading the contents.
(Talkback) Scan document mode, 4 or 5.
(Pawel) This is a more sophisticated mode in which the phone directs us where to point the camera so that the text is aligned perfectly and then takes the photo itself in order to recognise what's written in it. It's more for lengthy documents, letters, contracts, anything of this sort.
(Talkback) Currency, US dollars, mode, 5 of 5.
(Pawel) And that's the last one. I think the name speaks for itself.
Let's try the food label mode at first. I have some products here that I already know will be recognised and some others that I already know will not be recognised. Let's see how this performs.
(Talkback) Scan doc... wuick ... food label beta, food label beta. Selected, Lookout food label mode.
(Pawel) We turned it on and now it's probably going to look for some products.
(Talkback) Recent... start button.
(Pawel) It would also help if I actually started the thing.
(Talkback) Stop button.
(Pawel) Let's grab this package and see ...
(Talkback) No product in view.
(Pawel) Ah, you'll get one in a moment.
(Talkback) No product in view. Product not recognised. Try rotating it to other sides.
(Pawel) OK. That happens.
(Talkback) Product not recognised. Try rotating it to other sides. Product not recognised. Try rotating it to other sides. Product not recognise. Try rotating it to other sides. Product not recognised. Try rotating it to other sides.
No products in view.
Willi Dungl organic ginger-Lemon Tea
(Pawel) Sometimes patience pays off and we just heard what it is.
(Talkback) No product in view.
(Pawel) Even in English. Let's try and take a look at something else.
There is a bottle.
(Talkback) No product in view
(Pawel) That I have in my hand,
(Talkback) No product in view.
(Pawel) And we will see if it recognises it
(Talkback) Product not recognised, try rotating it to other sides.
Product not recognised, try rotating it to other sides. Product not recognised, try rotating it to other sides. Product not recognised. Try rotating it to other sites. Product not recognised. Try rotating it to other sides. Product not recognised. Try rotating it to other sides.
(Pawel) Oh well, I think we're out of luck. And that happens because the database is not very wide.
Let's try it again with a bag of biscuits.
(Talkback) No product in view. Low light.
(Pawel) As you see, it’s tinkering with the light a bit because it's too dark in my room.
(Talkback) Product not recognised. Try rotating it to other sides. Product not recognised. Try rotating it to other sides.
(Pawel) I guess we'll not have luck with that many products. At least that one was recognised. However, that's not the end because we can always use the quick read mode to read the text on the box so that we at least get a rough idea of what we might be holding in the hand.
(Talkback) Start button, explo... selected, quick read mode, quick read, selected, quick read mode.
(Pawel) And now let's try to start it.
(Talkback) Start button, Schoko-Röllchen, Volimilch-Schoklade, 125 g, zartes Waffelgeback mit 26% Vollmilch-Schokolade, Serviervorsca, 125ge
(Pawel) So this was written in German because I'm in Austria at the moment and I don't have really products with English text on them. But just to quickly tell you these are chocolate cookies with 26 percent of milk chocolate. So that's just for your information. You can also see the amount of it, I think it said 125 grams. I'll check it later. That's what the Recents option is for. And of course you'll also be able to see the entire text as it came out of the recognition in the transcript of the podcast. So if you would like to read along what really came out of this, that will be possible as well.
Let's try and see how much luck we'll have with the document scanning mode and we'll try to recognise what's on the screen of my laptop because I don't have anything written in English in this room either on a bigger piece of paper, so I think the laptop screen will be a great example as we can display practically anything on it.
I'll sit in front of my laptop and I'll switch over the modes.
(Talkback) Rece... food labe... selected quick read mo..., scan document mode, 4 of 5, scan document, selected, scan document mode.
(Pawel) Yeah, it always announces the mode it's in, once we launch it. And it's also great when we come back from another app and want to find out what actually we launched recent and what is currently active. OK, so I'll start this one and we'll see what happens when I point it at the screen of my laptop.
(Talkback) Quick...
(clicking sounds signifying Talkback navigation)
recents bu... start button, stop button. Move towards top right. Move device right. Move right. Try taking a snapshot to scan what's in view,. Right. Right. Right. Move device towards bottom right. Try taking a snapshot to scan what's in view. Move device towards bottom. Move towards bottom. Too far, move device closer. Hold still.
(after a while of silence)
Recent item details, close details.
(Pawel) As we could hear, we got a nice set of instructions of what to do, so all we had to do was listen in and follow. At some points, we were told to try and take the snapshot manually. However, my experience is that it's always better to manoeuvre for such a long time that finally the app tells you to hold still and it will do the photo automatically. The result is usually better and you don't have to look hastily for the snapshot button. Now let's see what options we have here, and of course, what came out of the text,
(Some Talkback clicking)
(Talkback) Close details button.
(Pawel) This is for closing The view we are currently in.
(Talkback) Share button.
(Pawel) This is for sharing the text with somebody else over one of the apps we have installed.
(Talkback) Delete item button.
(Pawel) And this is deleting it from the recents, although the app will do it automatically once we close it. So now let's see how the text actually came out.
(Talkback) www.euroblnd
EBU
EBU)
ABOUT
The voice of blind and partially sighted people in Europe
ABOUT BLINDNESS AND PARTIAL SIGHT
WELCOME TO EBU, the united voice of millions of blind and partially sighted Europeans. EBU Works towards an accessible and inclusive society with equal
opportunities for blind and partialy sighted people to fully participate in all aspects of social.economic. cultural and political life.
CAMPAIGNS AND ACTIVITIES
SEARCH
PUBLICATIONS AND RESOURCES
POL
20:54 17.09.2020
(Pawel) So it recognised a fair amount of text from the screen.
It's readable. You will also be able to see the result as generated by the app in the transcript and, well, here is to hoping that the same quality is provided when we do a snapshot of something written on paper.
Now let's go back and see what else we haven't explored yet.
(Talkback) Overview, Back button.
Can't, lookout, take sna... recents, take sna... recents but...
(Pawel) We haven't gone into the recents view yet, I briefly explained what it does, but let's take a look at what it actually looks like.
(Talkback) Recents, delete all recent items, button, recent items are deleted every time you close lookout.
(Pawel) Yeah, which is sometimes unfortunate because, well, often in a rush, we will close the app and then realise that there was something we actually wanted to retrieve and it is especially useful when we had an eventful journey and there was a lot happening. But sadly, well, as soon as we close the app, everything's gone. So bear that in mind. And also it stores up to the last, I believe, 20 items. So if we walk along a busy street and there is a lot happening, we can't retrieve all of that, sadly. Maybe that will be improved with a future update.
(talkback) Scan document, 8.54 pm www.euroblnd... EBU...
(Pawel) And that is our latest scan that we did with the app. So we already have been there.
(Talkback) Scan doc... Quick Read 8.40, quick read 8... quick read, 8 49 pm zartes Waffelgeback mit 26% Vollmilch-Sch...
(Pawel) Yeah. So from what you can see here, I have access to everything I have recognised with the app, all the way back to the start as much as the history allows me to have it saved and I can always recall it until I close the app, of course. And if I double click on one of these items...
(Talkback) recent item det... share button, close details button.
(Pawel) We are in the very same view that we were before. When we looked at the text I scanned in the scanning mode. So as you see, you can open every entry you've scanned, pretty much the same way. Even here you can read the text.
(Talkback) zartes Waffelgeback mit 26% Vollmilch-Schokolade...
(Pawel) Yeah. So there is that. And that's pretty much it when it comes to the interface of the app and now let's give the exploration mode a spin outside.
(The Demo Jingle Music)
(Pawel) So now we'll try to take a little walk around my area here, and eventually we might end up at a bus stop where we'll try to see if the app is able to tell us which line has actually arrived. So keep your fingers crossed and let's go.
(Talkback) building, flag, aeroplane, poster...
(Pawel) Ah, a poster... Can we see what's written on there?
(Talkback) Building, traffic light, sewing machine...
(Pawel) Oh, (laughs) I don't know where that came from.
(Talkback) building...
(Pawel) OK, clearly, I can't...
(talkback) building...
(Pawel) aim at it.
(Talkback) Person.
(motor sound of a truck)
Truck, truck with text 10, building, sewing machine with text 10.
(Pawel) Hmm, it's not sure. It's either a truck or a sewing machine. We'll never find out.
(Talkback) Building, building. Building, building...
(the sound of an airplane flying in the air)
(Pawel) And now I can believe the airplanes. I didn't hear that one before.
(Talkback) Car
(Pawel) So it's a car? It's sadly not telling us the directions. I remember the old version used to say something being at 12 o'clock...
(Talkback) building,
(Pawel) one o'clock etc...
(Talkback) building.
(Pawel) So I can't tell really
(Talkback) building
(Pawel) to which di...
(Talkback) Text: Löhnstraße, car. mirror, building airplane.
(Pawel) Yeah, this is accurate because Löhnstraße is the name of the street we just turned, so it would make sense. It saw the...
(Talkback) Building, person, building. Footwear, tire, building, tire, motorcycle
(Pawel) Ahhh...
(Talkback) Building.
(Pawel) See, is it really a motorcycle?
(Talkback) Clothing, action figure, scooter
(Pawel) I'll see, it could be just cars, but...
(Talkback) Building, container, text: "1PA30, building, building, Text: 5 5 7 180, building
(Pawel) Ah, I approached an obstacle,
(Talkback) Text: 1 5 0 9 J
(Pawel) And it detected it as well, so This is pretty nifty.
(TalkbackC car, text: TABAKWAREN, ZEITSCHRIFTEN, text: Schulartikel, Süßwaren, text: bautomat.
(Pawel) At a certain point, the app started recognising so many things that it was impossible for me to both comment on it on the spot and concentrate on the road I was going. So I'll just record a short explanation of things that happened on the way after the clip is played. What we just passed now was a news agency stand which offered tobacco products, sweets, school articles, as well as, of course, newspapers, So we had that read as we passed the buildin.
(Talkback) car, bag, tableware, head-mounted display, helicopter, building, text: 26, two tanks, scooter, tank.
(A sound of cane crashing against a fence)
(Pawel) I don't think it's that street really.
(Talkback) Tank with text: tickets; computer monitor, tank with text: tickets, tank with text: tickets 0 0 9 0 0 4 1 6 5 7 RR.
(Pawel) And that's what I would have hoped could have been the ticket machine, which would clearly indicate I might be close to my goal, which was the bus stop, But it turned out it wasn't.
(Talkback) Car, computer monitor, car, video camera.
Two buildings. Window, text, 0000000, airplane, door, car, barbecue grill.
Tent,
(Pawel) A tent? I can onlz feel some bushes here.
(Talkback) building, building,
(a bit of speechless silence and sounds of cane against the surroundings)
(Talkback) Tableware, building, car, building, building, building, building, building, building, building, 2 buildings
(Pawel) Fair enough
(Talkback) Building, houseplant. Building...
(Some more cane navigation)
(Talkback) Sculpture, sculpture.., food.
(Pawel) Sculpture?
(Talkback) Food.
(Pawel) I think it's just a wall.
(Talkback) Building, sculpture.
(Pawel) Maybe I'm just approaching it...
(Talkback) Window, building,
(further walking sounds and a cane hits the fence again)
(Talkback) Furniture
(Pawel) I think some of these objects actually appeared the moment I faced the house I was passing by. So then the camera could see a bit clearer and describe them to me.
(Talkback) Toothbrush, building, tableware, car, bench, car
(Pawel) ah...
(Talkback) Bench, car, car,
(Pawel) I'm going back and I haven't seen this before.
(Talkback) Building, helicopter, text: Mosselgasse, text: Mosselgasse, text: Mosselgasse
(Pawel) Okay, apparently I'm turning...
(Talkback) Car, picture frame, car, bench, clothing, person, jeans.
(the sounds of people moving and talking in the background)
Car, display device, Car, flowerpot, helmet.
Text: Städtischer kindergarten, traffic sign.
(Pawel) I first entered the Mosselgasse, which was announced by the app, it saw the street sign, and then after some rummaging through, I found the door to the municipal kindergarten, which is a really precious information, because from my experience, I know that this is my last waypoint before the bus stop.
(Talkback) Text: Löhnstraße.
Text: Löhnstraße
(Pawel) I think we are there. That's the name of the bus stop. I just hope I'm standing right, so I can see the bus coming.
(Talkback) Furniture. Furniture with text: MOVENPIC, text: Movenpick, furniture with text: Zipfer, Movenpick
(Pawel) And it seems I was right. Opposite the bus stop, there is a restaurant and most likely what we heard before was a banner or a sort of advertising furniture piece that advertised the coffee, in this case Movenpick, and the beer, in this case, Zipfer, that the restaurant offers, so again, we managed to make sure that we are on the right spot by seeing two waypoints, the bus stop and then the restaurant opposite.
(Talkback) Text: (a difficult to understand text in German), text: IVB.at.
(Pawel) And unfortunately, we didn't manage to read the line the bus was heading. We see the internet address of the bus company and some other message that I couldn't understand, really. But other than that, we didn't get any information. And I was standing quite close by the front door where the driver sits. So I would think I would catch the number, but apparently not this time. I had a case where it worked though, and you can try it as well, just like you can try the entire Lookout app, so once again, I highly recommend it. I must say, it works better in bright light of the day rather than at night, even though it can manage the flash quite fine. But I did a little attempt at recognising anything from my balcony when it was completely dark and it failed. So it's better to work with it during the day.
Thank you for listening and enjoy Lookout.
Farewell (Tanja) Well, I would like to end this episode and…
(Mario, half-singing of joy) Yeeeah!
(Tanja, laughing) I hope you enjoyed our episode, Mario!
(Mario) Yeah, yeah, I did.
(Tanja) OK.
(Mario) I did.
(Tanja) But you're happy to go.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Xavier) He was doing the notes.
(Tanja) Please reach out us at Twitter or email us. You will find the email and Twitter on our webpage. Until the next time, be safe, wash your hands, keep the distance and…
(Xavier) Wear your mask.
(Tanja) Yeah. And wear your mask. Talk to you in October.
(Mario) Yeah!
(Tanja) Bye bye.
(Everyone) Bye.
(Outro)
(Voiceover)
thank you for listening.
This has been EBU Access Cast.
Wellcome to the 24th episode of the Ebu Access Cast. If you are following u our Twitter account you probably noticed that last month was unusually busy for us, because we were looking for new contributors for our podcast. After a set of interviews and selection of the Vacancies which we received from you, we are slowly starting to introduce new members of our expanded team. This time for you Xavier Ciscar and David Ciscar from Barcelona join us for almost 2 hours of very cool debate and exchange of opinions about the news from assistive tech industry. We prepared for you something really special at the end of the show, and that is the exclusive demo of Miele WDD 131 Guideline washing machine which is accessible to blind people. A special Thanks goes to Tanja Kleut who prepared very nice demo of the product.
We would like to remind you that from the previous Episode our podcast Comes with the transcript, so if you have any problems with getting our audio content, you are more than wellcome to read thru it.
WWDC20 is behind us, therefore we are bringing to you the news from New Apple accessibility features coming this fall which will make technology usable
and more accessible to all
Twitter Is Coming Out with Audio Tweets on iOS and they announced new API which might bring back many features which Twitter took away 2 years ago.
Chrome/Chrome OS Accessibility Version 83 Release Notes showed up on the internet as well, but if you in the mean time got version 84, don't worry, Google is just very quick with their Chrome releases.
Accessibility changes in the latest Firefox are bringing many improvements to screen reader users as well.
Unfortunately the future isn't so bright for the AR projects for the Moment, because we found out that Bose Shuts Down Sound Project.
If you like Computer and Video games, you will be very happy to know that Naughty Dog Makes PlayStation Game Accessible.
If you are curious to know when new Android 11 comes out, than we got possible spoiler for you because, Google may release the stable Android 11 update on September 8th which will bring up many new accessibility improvements.
There are new releases for both NVDA (2020.2 ) and JAWS (the June
update.
In case you didn't know Whatsapp became much more integrated with Google assistant, so this time for you we bring you the tip which is explaining How to make a WhatsApp voice or video call with Google Assistant
At the end you can listen to the demo of Miele WDD131 washing machine, which Tanja prepared for us and for you.
If you would like to give us any kind of Feedback we are available as always on out Twitter and email. We will go on a month of vacation and will be back with you in September, so till than, stay safe and take care.
Introduction (Intro jingle)
(Voice over)
This programme is financially supported by the fundings from the European Commission.
You are listening to the EBU Access Cast. The first official podcast from European Blind Union about assistive technology for blind and partially sighted people.
And here are the hosts.
(Mario) Welcome to the 24th episode of the EBU Access Cast. This is the last episode before our summer break.
My name is Mario Perčinić. I'm coming from Luxembourg. With me today, well, some old and some new faces. I have Paweł Masarczyk from Poland. Hello man.
(Paweł) And that's the old face amongst us. Hello. Hello.
(Mario) Yes, hehe. And we have some new faces because as some of you probably know, and saw on Twitter, we published the ad to look for new people who would like to contribute in our podcast and we have to say huge thanks to everybody who submitted their vacancies to us.
It was really nice to see all of those vacancies and talk to you, all of you, and some of the people are already here today, so… And you will see some more faces in September as well. But except Paweł and me today, we have not one, but two people from Barcelona, Spain.They are Xavier Cisscar.
(Xavier) Hello. I am one of the new faces, as you say. Very nice to be here with you. Very pleased.
(Mario) And David Cisscar as well.
(David) Hello. Hello. Hello. How are you? And greetings to all the people listening this podcast, let see how we can contribute to give another perspective.
(Mario) Yeah, absolutely. That's why we published actually all of the things that we are looking for new contributors, because we would like to expand our team with the new people from new countries so we can bring some new approach to the show and yeah… So welcome to the show, guys.
(Xavier) Thank you very much.
(Mario) Yeah. May I ask you to shortly introduce yourself? What are you doing in your life?
(Xavier) Well, I have been working much time of my life in the printing house in Barcelona from ONCE.
Now I am in a school library working with kids always related to braille. So I am a braillist. Actually, I could define myself as a braillist and I like accessibility and technology and I work in a group as a volunteer called SucDePoma. It began eight years ago and we collaborate with each other to teach people who wants to know things about… Mainly it began with Apple, but now we're expanding because Apple is the way, not the aim. So, well, we have a podcast, we have a Web page, we have meetings and we have a yearly event called Avalon, where we share experiences, talks and everything. So that's my mainly my life.
(Mario) That's nice.
And David, what are you doing? Well, I suppose you're the sound guy?
(David) I am, yes, I do. I actually am working at a bank here in Barcelona, but my work has not very much to do with banking stuff so I am the communication secretary at a trade union in that company. So I'm always dealing with content management and placing mails and well, all that stuff. Also, making videos in campaigns and well, communication stuff. I have a degree in the communication, audio visual communication and well… I have been working also in radio and doing a programme for more than 20 years in the local station here in Barcelona and well, lots of other things, music, theatre or whatever comes along.
(Mario) Excellent. So David will be responsible for our overall sound in the podcast. So, yeah, if we sound bad throw the feedback back to David, hahahaha.
(David) Yes, yes, do that, please, hahahaha.
(Mario) All right. Welcome guys onboard. So let's check out what we have in the news for this month. This is as I said earlier, this is the last podcast before summer. So before we jump in the news section please stay with us until the end we are having the premiere in our podcast. Today we will show you for the first time in Europe demo of the washing machine Miele WDD 131 Guideline. It’s special washing machine for the blind designed by Miele and Tanja will do the demo for us because she purchased the machine. So stay with us until the and and listen the demo please.
Let’s see what did we prepare…
Accessibility in the news (Voice over)
And now… Accessibility in the news.
New Apple accessibility features coming this autumn (Mario) So the first news comes from Apple, no surprise. As WWDC just got finished last month lots of things were shown which were new. Of course, one of many things which were shown were the news in accessibility. So besides many, many things, which they shown, we could see that some new things have got introduced in the iOS 14 beta. For example, VoiceOver got these Back Tap feature, which I see that many people will use it. And also the possibility of recognising the objects and the possibility of sound recognition for people who are deaf or nearly deaf, or it could be also good for deaf blind people as well. And. Yeah. Lots of other things. I think we have some people here who installed some betas on their devices. So how do you do with this version of iOS 14. Do you find it interesting? And what's your opinion?
(Paweł) Well. Well, I would say for a beta it's pretty stable actually.
(Mario) Really?
(Paweł) Yeah, no major crashes that I expected. I don’t know about you.
(Xavier) It's pretty stable and it doesn't crash, but I am finding that the beta is not responding the same in each device because I'm talking to my colleagues and everyone gets different things in different devices. So I'm not very happy about that. It's stable but it's different in each device.
(Paweł) Aha, yeah. For instance, me on the iPod Touch 7th gen, I don't have the access to all the features they promised. I believe all the AI related stuff. So recognising of inaccessible controls or the scanning of a screen to search for something that could be clickable in case the app is completely inaccessible. The back tap. All of that is not available to me on the iPod. And I think it only works from iPhone X up. That's what I read. And even on the iPhone X, I had already reports that some people can't access all of these features. So it's really strange.
(Xavier) But do you think that the Back tap is a AI feature?
(Paweł) No, not really. But I sort of mixed it in the middle with that. But there must be some hardware component that is needed for that and these older devices don't have it.
(Xavier) Because I have installed the second public beta in an iPhone 8 Plus and I can't access to the back tap also. So I don't know because the 8 Plus is not so old.
(Paweł) Yeah. The SE also don’t have it. and the new SE 2020 neither. So it must be some hardware component that it's only available in the newer.
(Xavier) Yeah because the SE 20 is like 8 Plus. No?
(Mario) Yeah.
(Xavier) I don’t know. And there are some even accessibility bugs also because I have installed the beta and for example in the accessibility settings you've got edit box to search and when I see when I write text to search the results, I'm not spoken by a VoiceOver so I get button 1 of 6, button 2 of 6, button 3 of 6 so I can't identify which are the results I'm getting. So I have two enter in each of the results without knowing where I'm going to. So it's not that it's unstable, but, of course, it's a beta and it has to be still to get better.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Paweł) Yeah. By all means. I also believe there is still this longstanding bug that people are longing for it to be fixed, that it's not always when you press the power button that you hear the time announced.
(Xavier) Oh yeah that’s…
(Paweł) For some devices it's still there. It used to work as expected. In iOS 13 something got broken and it's still not fixed. I used the lift to activate,like , when I grab my phone, it awakes so then I can hear the time, but those who activated manually with the power, actually, have a problem there. And I know it's not been fixed for a long time.
(Mario) Uh. That's not nice.
(Xavier) I had too many expectations with the app library because this is a thing that came from Android and the implementation they have done in iOS 14 it's not a good implementation because in Android you've got a plain library, you can organise in folders and as you want. And here, they automatically distribute applications in folders and for example, I got a utility folder with 45 applications and that's not very useful because they join applications that have nothing to do with each other. Something like an app library would be very easy to access for blind people, actually. Many times it would be more useful than all the screens spread over the home screen in the phone. But the implementation they have done is not very useful, actually.
(Mario) Ok.
(Paweł) I saw There are some editing options there. You can actually somehow move the things, but I don't know how advanced that would be and to what degree you can customise this experience.
(Xavier) Not so not a high degree of customisation, actually. So it's not that I have been experimenting with that. It's not a good implementation, I think. That’s my opinion.
(Mario) Well, we'll see. I mean, I suppose that some things might… It's always the case with, you know, betas and stable releases. Maybe some things come and go so well.
Yeah…
(Xavier) Yeah.
(Paweł) Hopefully.
(Mario) What about the VoiceOver recognition new features. What's your opinion about it? Have you tested in? What do you think?
(Xavier) I think that it's got much better than it did in iOS 13. But of course, this will grow up as experience goes on. It's better, it tells you more objects, more things. But it's a very difficult thing, actually. So for me, it's still difficult to… Because I haven't had many experiences which I haven't had much time to look at.
(Mario) OK, yeah. What gets me worried is the fact that now they're saying that the new VoiceOver will be able to recognise the other elements of the UI, such as the sliders, buttons and tables and stuff like that. So what gets me worried is the fact that if this thing proves to be working let's say 70% OK I'm afraid that we might see the fallback of the developers stop taking care about the accessibility standards because they will think, oh, if this thing can recognise the stuff by itself, by AI, why should I care about the overall accessibility development? And I think this is not a proper way to go.
(Xavier) That's the eternal balance between design and screen readers because JAWS and NVDA do many intelligent things with tables, for example, in the Web.
(Mario) Sure.
(Xavier) And we think they are a responsibility of the designers, that tables are well designed and it's not true. It's that screen readers read it in an intelligent way. So it's not true, it’s that designers don't do their work, So it's the same thing actually. Designers have to work better.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Xavier) But it doesn't mean that screen readers don’t work to help us in a better experience in navigations in Internet or even in UI. So that's the same.
(Paweł) I think we also had this discussion back in 2012 when iOS, I believe it was 6 back then was coming out, and one of the changes was labelling of buttons.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Paweł) And there were already remarks back then that, well, if we start having this possibility and we start labelling the buttons in apps that are not accessible and this will basically give the developers an excuse not to provide accessibility proper. And fortunately, it didn't happen. So I guess, well, if somebody is looking for excuses not to do accessibility, they always find them.
(Mario) Sure.
(Paweł) But if somebody sees the potential and they want to be committed, they will. And also another great point that was raised in the Apple VIS Extra podcast with the representatives of Apple accessibility was that now the developers can use these new mechanisms to their advantage and they can use them to identify problems in their own apps. So if they mismanaged…
(Mario) That's correct. Yeah.
(Paweł) To label a slider, a slider. They will see, um, the AI recognise it, a slider. Maybe it's a good idea that I also give it the proper control type. So let's hope it will stay like that more and actually make people lazy about accessibility.
(Mario) Sure. Yeah. Well I mean this was just the fact that I started to wonder if this might happen. But of course, all of these changes are here for us to, let's say, help us improve the usage of such technologies. So, yeah, let's give a thumbs up for the whole thing. Regarding the iOS 14.
(Xavier) There is one thing, one more thing, very interesting if you allow me.
(Mario) Yeah, Go ahead.
(Xavier) This is the possibility of putting labels to the photos because it wasn't working very well in iOS 13 because you had to do it like you labelled buttons. When you wanted to label a photo, you had to label like you had to label a button or any control. And now you can put it like footer text, you know.
(Mario) OK.
(Xavier) So this feature allows you to add metadata to the photo. And the photo is visible for blind people, but also visible for anyone who looks at the photo. So if anyone does a photo and puts a footer text a legend, it's a benefit for everyone. And when you export that photo to the Mac, two Windows, to any other computer, the metadata go with the photo. So it's a very nice feature. I have experimented once.
(Paweł) Does it also save as an alternative description? So if you put it on a web page, it will automatically put it in the alt.
(Xavier) I haven't tried it. If it's an alternative text, but it's metadata from the photo. So I suppose you could programmatically try to extract this metadata and convert it to alternative text.
(Paweł) Yeah, for sure. I'm also quite curious what this recognition thing in VoiceOver does to games, like really simple games, because well, there are these games are written in unity so there are no native controls to grasp, but some of these games are really simple in that, you basically tap on things, you tap on buttons. We have this game which is a quiz game and we often play it with my family, but the problem is I always need to team up with somebody sighted because there's no way for me to play it independently, and you just use your PlayStation as this big screen on which everybody is watching the progress and you use your phones to give answers to the questions. And I believe this kind of system would be ideal to recognise the controls there and let me answer the questions or manipulate the game. So I would be really curious to see if that actually makes it possible, that would be great. And well, there are so many really positive changes for braille users because there is now the autopanning of text, if you configure it on a braille display. I believe you can use the rotor as well to change the output and input tables of a Braille display. And if you're an Apple Watch user, there is also new watch OS version available and you can pair a Braille display with your watch.
(Xavier) Really, yeah, that's right.
(Mario) And there is also a rotor for the watch OS now available as well.
(Paweł) Yeah. Yeah. I also like the new Siri, the new siri is quite nice because it doesn't take the whole screen anymore. It just pops up on top of what you're doing. You ask it a question. It tells you what it has to say. It maybe shows you the results somewhere so when you are swiping to the right or flicking, you'll find the Siri answer past your dock. You can read the answer from the Internet or read whatever result it came up with. And you can then either press the listen button to make Siri listen again or you can press home to make it go away. And I think it's really convenient. It is supposed to answer questions from the Internet. Like when you ask it some usual question, it will look for answers on the Internet and tell you. It didn't do it for me. I asked some questions and the best it did was it returned some Google results.
(Xavier) Yeah. The worst thing about Siri is its AI system, I think. I mean, Siri is the worst from the Siri AI systems we have now, Alexa, Google and Siri. If they make it better, they can compete, but Siri’s AI systems is quite worse than the other two.
(Paweł) Not smart enough for today’s standards, hahaha.
(Xavier) Yeah.
(Mario) Yeah.
(David) Hahaha.
(Paweł) But at least the interface is quite sleek now and you can send voice messages with Siri which is also quite convenient.
(Xavier) Yeah. And now you can send audio messages also.
(Paweł) Aha.
(Xavier) That's very nice. Yeah. That's very nice. Yeah.
(Paweł) And no new languages sadly. So for those of you who…
(Mario) So yeah, actually all of that rumors which we've publicly spoke about a few months ago didn't come to be true at the end.
(Paweł) Not in this version.
(Mario) They were saying that the iOS will become much more open for third-party developers, but it didn't happen.
(Xavier) I don't think technically is very difficult because I heard in iOS 7 with jailbreak, I heard a Catalan synthesiser installed. So I don't think it's really a difficult thing.
(Mario) Yeah.
(David) At least not a technical thing.
(Xavier) No, not a technical issue. So it's time for Apple if they don't want to assume that it's time for Apple to meet third party… Well, even in Voice Dream Reader you can install many, many, many voices. So it's time for them to allow other third-party voices and those things.
(Mario) Sure, Yeah. But, well, maybe we see it some…
(Xavier) Some day.
(Mario) In 100 years, maybe.
(Everyone laughs)
(David) there's something else about iOS 14 and it’s its new magnifying glass. It's a little bit enhanced, although I haven't had the possibility to test it because my iPhone is my work telephone. So I wasn't able to get a beta for testing iOS 14. But from what I've read, the magnifying glass now, it's like an app. Not like it was before that you could only access it through the Control Centre. So now it has its own app access. You can access it as an app. And for the programme itself, it has less buttons on the screen. So you can have a larger image from what you what you're looking at. But you have hidden controls that you have to pull up to see. And well, these controls are not very different from the ones you had before, but now you have direct access. Once you pull up that controls you have direct access to brightness and contrast and to the light button and to the filters button. You don't have to make so many taps to find the controls. And you can also buy configuration, set one of these buttons in the main screen with a capture button and the zoom slider button. That's what you have in there in the home screen from the magnifying glass application.
(Xavier) And one of the things they say you can do it now with the magnifying glass is to take a series of photos.
(David) Multiple pictures. That's it. Because I, for example, used to use it when I was at a restaurant to read the menu, but not reading the menu directly with a magnifying glass. But well, taking this capture that it's not recorded in your photo app, in your photo library, you take a capture and then you can read the capture that you took, but you could only take one capture. So if the menu has more than one page, you have to then make another capture again. Now you can do multiple captures and read the menu afterwards. That's a good thing. And also the application directly enhances the capture you took, although I don't know if it will be the same in iOS 14 or not, but in iOS 13, it takes some time, maybe a second from when you push the capture button to the moment the capture is made. So if you tap the capture button, but you slightly move your telephone, the capture is not well captured. Let's see how this ends in iOS 14.
(Mario) Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that it also depends on the devices.
(Xavier) Yeah,
(David) Of course. I mean, an iPhone X, well, it's not that old, but it's beginning to be.
(Mario) Well, it's just two years old, haha.
(Xavier) Yeah, it’s not old.
(David) Well, 2 years old that can be some kind of old now for the rhythm it grows.
(Mario) It’s true. I mean, you cannot find the iPhone X anymore in the store, you cannot buy it. So that's too bad.We are in the consumer world, so, Apple decides what they decide.
(Xavier) That's terrific. Yeah.
Twitter Is Coming Out with Audio Tweets on iOS (Mario) Well, speaking of the whole Apple news, the next news, short one, comes from Twitter and currently it's for the iOS users because they announced that right now it will be possible to put the audio message inside of your tweet and this feature will be available just for the iOS users for now. They didn't specify anything when it's coming to the Android. It looks like that, you know, Twitter is trying to, well, become kind of like short podcasting platform or whatever. They're saying now that, okay, you are limited to 140 seconds per voice message inside of the tweet. But if you record longer than 140 seconds, then your message goes into the threaded conversation so the other people can respond. And see how it works. Well, since I don't have Twitter on any of the iOS devices. Actually I do have my iPad, but I just use it for my testing purposes. I can say nothing about it. But I don’t know, have some of you tested it out or herd?
(Xavier) I haven't tested it, but there are quite sides about this thing. First of all, the thing that this feature can only be made from the official native app of Twitter in iOS.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Xavier) The second thing is that it's not fully accessible because some buttons are not labelled. The third thing is that it records it like a video. So it's not an audio, actually. It's a video what it records. And there's another last minute news that says, I've read that Twitter has reopened some APIs for third-party apps.
(Mario) That's true, yeah.
(Xavier) What Twitter closed, but I haven't had the possibility to analyse which APIs are opened because I actually in iOS, what I use, is a mixture of the native Twitter application only for notifications because I don't like Twitter application actually at all. And I use Twitterrific, which is my favourite app because Twitterrific allows me to maintain the official chronology, the official timeline, but it doesn't allow me the notifications, but Twitterrific is my favourite app.
(Mario) Right.
(Xavier) In Twitterrific in this moment I can't do the recording.
(Mario) Yeah, so the thing is about this whole new API for the Twitter is that they reopened the API by basically putting the new version of their API 2.0 and they said that many of the features which didn't work 2 years ago, which they turned it off, should be back. And I know that they said that lots of them will be back for personal use, for developers who are making like a small, let's say, personal clients. So it might be that we will see some updates in some of our windows third-party clients, for example, as well. And also the third-party clients, such as Twitterrific for the iOS. But there are also some other clients as well before the Android. So, yeah, it's cool to see that Twitter is coming back with the some stuff, which they took it off. I really was not happy to see that they closed off some of the stuff because you could really see that especially those third-party clients were very much suffering from, you know, lacking of the features.
(Xavier) Of course, yeah.
(Mario) For example, just having, you know, all these things as they should be or even improved should be very good. So, yeah, we might see lots of new things coming up in the next few months regarding the Twitter, which is cool.
(David) I understand that a lot of people is taking advantage of audio conversations, for example and nowadays lots of people, not only blind people, use audio messages in WhatsApp and that's a clear factor that audio is increasing. People are increasing its use of audio everywhere. And maybe Twitter has something also like the WhatsApp of audio messages. But I'm not confident with using audio with Twitter, because when you use WhatsApp with audio messages, you normally speak only to one or maybe more people in a group. But in Twitter, you never know who's going to listen to you.
(Mario) That's correct.
(David) It's a different kind of thing. I mean, maybe you should think better than when you record your WhatsApp audios.
(Xavier) Well, I have seen people using Twitter media to send videos, for example, International Poetry Day. I saw one of my writers sending her reading of a poem, for example. So this is another possibility. But since Twitter allowed audio sending, I haven't seen sending one person sending an audio message. So it's another possibility for once who wants will use it who doesn't need it want use it. It's a possibility. And what we need is that it's accessible. And that's all I think.
(Mario) Ok.
(David) Actually, I use Twitter, the native application, and I haven't seen an update for me right now and I don't see the audio message button. So it’s not for everybody. They said next weeks it's gonna be available, But not everybody has it right now.
(Mario) Okay. I give 100 euros to see that Trump probably has it already.
(Everyone laughs)
(Xavier) Probably with that helicopter sound behind him.
(Mario) Yeah. Who knows? Maybe he'll start using this feature or. I don't know. Yeah. Well then I don't know if there is a mute button there.
(Everyone laughs)
(Xavier) You've got the block button which is even better.
(Mario) Yeah, but. Well that's up to the listeners to decide. Hahahaha
Ok. So this are the news from Twitter.
Let's see what else do we have.
Chrome/Chrome OS Accessibility in Version 83 (Mario) Paweł?
(Paweł) Aha.
(Mario) Do you know something about Crhome accessibility and the news for the Crhome 83?
(Paweł) Yeah. More about Firefox actually. Because Chrome has also released an update.
(Mario) It did.
(Paweł) Actually 83 and 84.
(Mario) Actually the 84 is already out so the 83 is already old hahaha.
(Paweł) We can't catch up with all the releases.
(Mario) No, actually they're too fast.
(Paweł) Haha, but Firefox is also out with their 78 and one thing they definitely fixed, you can check it, for example on GitHupp, where you have huge tables with lots of lines of code. If you have a really big table, it should be more efficient to navigate this with a screen reader. And there are also some fixes to the developer tools. There are some fixes for JAWS with browsing, HTML entities and, yeah, I think there is going to be much more work now on developer tools in Firefox. They they're going to be improved pretty much. And also, Thunderbird is out with a new update. And there are some accessibility fixes in many areas in the message creation window and the contact and the account list and so on. So you can look forward to that and if you are a Windows user, then definitely you'll be happy because the new 78 version of Thunderbird has the long-awaited feature of hiding Thunderbird into the system tray.
(Mario) Oh. OK.
(Paweł) Yay, yay to the system tray. Anyway that's what I know about this.
Regarding Chrome Mario, you actually have the release notes somewhere?
(Mario) I do have the list of release notes and we will publish it in our show notes because it's a little bit difficult to find out what's going on because it was just released through the various groups and mailing lists. But yeah, it's quite, a lot of changes which they are doing on the accessibility front towards all the things like de Chrome OS on Windows and Chrome on iOS and the Android version. So each of the version says their own changes. One of many which just come to my mind, for example, which are really being improved, is the ARIA support on all of the platforms, especially the Windows one. They also improved a lot their developer tools, which they started improving in the previous versions as well. And they are saying that the possibility of reading the dates like working with the date picker now on the windows is much better than it used to be. So, yeah, go ahead and check that out. We will put the link in the show notes and, yeah, update your browser guys, it's important.
(Paweł) Yeah, especially now that, for example, Firefox is capable of showing you if any of the passwords you've saved has been compromised in a database breach of the services that you use. So you can be instantly alerted, even by your browser, to change your passwords, because maybe your password is in a dump that got leaked out and maybe you'll be better of changing your password in case somebody should, like, try to see if the same password works with a different service.
(Xavier) They say that safari in iOS 14 will do the same.
(Mario) Aha.
(Paweł) Aha, that’s a nice thing to do I guess.
Bose Shuts Down Sound Project (Mario) The next thing we have is also a short and sad announcement from Bose, I think Bart is going to cry now because Bart bought the Bose frames. I don't know if some of you guys have it?
(Xavier) No. No, I don't.
(Paweł) No.
(Mario) Well then Bart will cry, but cry, cry, cry. The other people who are listening to us, maybe. But the thing is, it looks like that all of this augmented reality projects are not having the bright future for the moment, because Bose, which was one of the leaders in this augmented sound reality thing which started 2 years ago, decided to shut down all the projects related to the augmented reality, which means, again, that one cool thing which they had done with Microsoft soundscape, which worked on the iPhone, will 99% go away. And that's something that will not be supported anymore. And of course, that's a sad thing to see because, well, who knows what will be also the future of the Bose frames as the device itself. Also because it was designed also to be something that's used for these augmented reality thing while it was also accessible for us in the same time. But yeah, that's said to see that unfortunately some things during the whole of this COVID crisis are not going well for some manufacturers.
(Paweł) Yeah, the fortunate thing is that the spokesperson who made the announcement, they also said that perhaps they will use parts of this experience and parts of this technology that they developed to power some future projects, maybe smaller scale and maybe not strictly AR related. So maybe nevertheless, we'll be able to see some kind of advancements in this area, at least to some degree. And I think the frames are still supported to some extent at least. I heard from somebody who uses them regularly that there was a software update quite recently with some really
interesting features, like, for example, if you're tilting your head left and right, you can change the volume or do something like that.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Paweł) Yeah. There are still updates and they're still playing with this so hopefully at least those who bought the device can still enjoy the device and the support.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Paweł) Even though the AR itself is shrinking.
(Xavier) It's serious because Bose is a big brand.
(Mario) It is, yeah.
(Xavier) I don't know who can you be confident in because you cannot be confident in some little brands, But Bose is a brand. I mean when you buy some Apple device you can be confident that you're buying something that will last.
(Mario) Aha.
(Xavier) But which are the brands that you would be confident in? Moreover, in things that are good for blind people. So you have to think a lot when you're buying things before you buy. A part from deciding if you want to pay the money they are asking you, you have to evaluate if these things will last.
(Mario) Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
(Xavier) So this is a thing you have to think of.
(Mario) That's for sure. I would say that, well, at least that's how I'm doing is whenever I'm going to purchase something, whether is tech or anything, I will use I'm going to make really extended research about it.
(Xavier) But with tech it seems like it's a more volatile market.
(Mario) It is. Yeah. And things are changing on the fast pace.
(Xavier Yeah.
(Mario) What was working at a certain point? Tomorrow might not exist anymore and unfortunately that's sad to see.
(Xavier) And this is something that is not asked to sighted people to do.
(Mario) True.
(Xavier) This analyses is something that is not asked to do to sighted people. When someone buys something, they are sure that they would be able to use this thing for more time. So we have to analyse things more than sighted people actually.
(Mario) Sure.
(David) Well, ask all the people who bought the Betamax system in the 80s, it was a system that collapsed in very few years.
(Xavier) But they were able to use those tapes for some years.
(David) Maybe, but not to buy movies or whatever.
(Xavier) It happens less times that than it happens to us.
(David) Maybe what happens to blind people is that we are some kind of more hungry for help or for technology that helps that whenever you find a new, whatever, a new application, a new…
(Xavier)Device.
(David) Piece of gear that makes something that you wished a long time ago to have. Well, you can think, yes, maybe it's not that you can be confident in that company, but you need that so I think it's more difficult for blind people also to do that.
(Mario) True.
(Xavier) We are more exposed.
(Mario) And especially if you don't have enough technical background to do that, you really need to, or read the sites which do the reviews for you, or you need to have some circle of friends who are techie enough who can do good recommendations because otherwise you can buy the product, which eventually might not be what you're looking for.
(Xavier) But that's what we do in our group here in Barcelona. And if someone had asked me are you confident in Bose brand, I would have said, yes, that's a good brand.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Xavier) I would have been wrong.
(Mario) Well, that's the fact that nobody could predict basically what would happen.
(Xavier) Yeah.
(Mario) Because basically all of that thing came just, well, let's say overnight. So I would say that it was a big surprise for all the people who trusted the Bose brand.
I mean, I remember the story when I was buying my Bluetooth headset for me. So it was like, uh, three years ago. So I was searching for the Bluetooth headset, which would be useful for me because I wanted to use it, for the first thing, I wanted to use outside for my navigation on the phone. So I bought the Aftershockz and they work great. The only downside of the Aftershockz, which really bothers me as the person who is also working with the audio, is the fact that when you're having any kind of voice call over, like Skype, or WhatsApp, or whatever, your audio sounds like shit through this Bluetooth headset because the overall Bluetooth compatibility uses the Bluetooth 4.0 and the codex are really bad ones. You sound like you're speaking from the phone 100 years old.
(Xavier) Yeah, hehe.
(David) hahaha.
(Mario) That’s something you will not or you will rarely find in the reviews. Before I purchased the gadget I read like 50 reviews about the product on different websites and stuff and nobody said like, yeah, this is something you should pay attention of but well that's the stuff you learn when you buy the product.
Naughty Dog Makes PlayStation Game Accessible (Mario) All right. So after the Bose thing, we can jump into the games because the company Naughty Dog announced that they made a PlayStation accessible to the blind and visually impaired community, which for people who are gamers is a big thing. Personally, I was into games 20 years ago, but right now I'm not so much. But I'm sure that there are lots of people still playing around and as a matter of fact, Xavier and Paweł do have some experiences with this. So what do you have to say, guys?
(Paweł) I just heard Let's Play because one of my friends here in Poland, he is really huge into gaming and he's blind himself. So he always uses the opportunity to play such titles. And I must say, it's pretty impressive what they did because there are around 50 or 60 options just for accessibility.
(Mario) Yeah, 60.
(Paweł) Yeah. So no matter what kind of adjustments you need, you will find the option for it. The whole menu, all the menus, all the texts that you need to read, everything is synthesised.
(Mario) Aha.
(Paweł) I don't know the synthesiser it comes with, it must be something they made because it cracks up in a lot of places. For Polish this is a female voice, a I don’t know in other languages. But the funny thing it does is it tries to pronounce the English names properly, even with the proper accent. So in the middle of your own language, you will probably hear an imitation of English accent.
(Mario) Oh.
(Paweł) Which is really funny with synthesiser. It's sort of accurate, but you can hear it synthesised. It's really interesting feeling, but you can do everything. You can go through the menus. You can read the notes that you find along the way because just to set you in the action. This is postapocalyptic world we're talking about. There are a couple of plots that you play. So you are more than one character in within this plot. But basically you're in a sort of station that is, I think, responsible for those who are left behind and so that the whole world as it is, can survive further and there are people infected with a virus. Sounds familiar.
(Mario) Hohohoho.
(Paweł) Except this people if they bite you, they probably will kill you. This is some kind of zombie variation. So you have to be really careful out in this world. And, well, you basically perform different tasks, you know, to keep the humanity going, to upkeep the stations, the posts to check if there are any infected people who could be dangerous to the rest of the population. And there is a plot, there is an actual story that is going on. So not to give you too many spoilers. You will have a lot to discover. Yeah. As you can already guess, there are plenty of fighting scenes. There is plenty of climbing, collecting items, looking for some proves and looking for some hints to solve some kind of riddles. So there is a lot of reading, There is a lot of walking, crawling, crouching, fighting. And in this fighting, you actually get to beat the characters in different parts of the body, either the head or the chest. So you have to be really precise. And they managed to sort of convey it. There are some audio clues, for example, when you're navigating and there is a special mode in which you can hear the sounds from all around when you, for example, find an item to pick up.
(Mario) Aha.
(Paweł) It makes a sound, you can approach it and you can pick it up.
And also, you can hear the audio beacons for when you have to go somewhere. So in some parts, I could tell that the game is sort of making the choices for you. It like lets you be guided on the right way. So if you, you know, are really touchy about this, you might feel that the game sort of plays itself for you. But nevertheless, you actually have to distinguish when you need to crouch more or where you can fully stand up and go further when you straighten up. And this mechanics is actually presented quite well. If you have a pad playing a game pad with vibration optics, this is good as well because some of the clues are indicated by vibration. I think there is a scene where you have to play the guitar and by vibration you can somehow determine if you're plucking the right chords. Of course, if you collect some notes like the pages of a diary, they are read out to you with their synthesiser. There is a lot of help given to you which buttons you have to press in order to achieve what exactly. There are even some tips given as to how to approach certain mechanics if you're blind. So the game is really playable. And this friend of mine was able to carry on like hours and hours worth of Twitch streams. So definitely it's playable and you can probably also finish it. But what I found, for example, missing is audio description for cut scenes. And for any kind of activity where you don't really play, you just observe what's happening. The characters are talking to each other, but they are relying on visual clues that they see. And you don't know what is going on because there is no audio description track for these scenes.
(Mario) OK.
(Paweł) Which I find pity. But yeah, other than this, this would be like, in my opinion, the biggest drawback. I could see that the person playing was having a lot of fun with this. And I see a lot of people are really grateful to Naughty Dog that they did this and I hope it will also extend to the new PlayStation five, because as far as I know, accessibility on PlayStation four is there so you can get some text to speech for the menus of the console, but only if you are using the American firmware and only in English. So if you use anything else than that, I think even if you use British firmware, you don't get this TTS options. So I really, really hope this will change in PS5.
(Xavier) Yeah. You have said many things I wanted to say, haha. One of the drawbacks that it's not from Naughty Dog, is that You don't have really accessibility, at least for totally blind people. You don't have really accessibility in PS4. Because I have tried it and you don't have TTS unless you are in American firmware. You have Zoom capabilities: you can maximise the screen, you can do zoom, you can do screen contrast, high contrast from something but not TTS.
So the problem is the first configuration. You need to sighted assistance. Once you've done it, then you can access easily if you learn the way to the game. So if you know what you have to do to press twice down and one to the right you can you can play the game.
(David) And this is helpful until something like an update comes and new screen appears and you don't see what's happening.
(Mario) Yeah, true.
(Xavier) Perhaps. The game is playable, but not fully accessible. You need what Paweł have said audio description. And what I'd like to say is that this game is not only accessible and inclusive because accessibility is not only for blind people, it's also for deaf people, because you can have light notifications and also for motor disabilities.
(Mario) Aha.
(Xavier) So they have done a good job and it would be nice that more companies would help with this. And my expectations are also for PS5. So I will start playing. I was not very convinced, but I would start playing. I'm not a gamer right now. But I’m very enthusiastic about these solutions for accessibility. Not because it's a game. But I want to try this. And if I get tired of this, I suppose that my son will continue. I feel like very much in trying this.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Paweł)For those of you who don't mind spoilers, I think there are plenty of game place and done by blind gamers in English, Liam Erven or Brandon Cole, to name a few.
(Xavier) Yeah.
(Paweł) Do have a look.
(Xavier) I have seen game plays.
(Mario) So let me just clarify that you were saying that in order to have the TTS available, you would need to have the firmware for the US PlayStation?
(Paweł) For playstations menus, not the game. The game can start anywhere.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Paweł) But in broader sense, if you want to use PlayStation along without any sighted assistance, you would need the American firmware for now.
(Mario) OK.
(Paweł) So in the game it's separate independently.
(Xavier) And even with that, the accessibility is not so good because for example, with the accessibility activated, you can not access all the menus. You can only access the accessibility menu, but not all the other configuration menus.
(Paweł) Oh.
(Xavier) It’s a very poor… There's a YouTube channel called Illegally Sighted.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Xavier) Which is the opposite to legally blind. It's a very nice title.
(Mario) Hahaha.
(Xavier) Yeah, hehe. This guy is partially sighted, is illegally sighted, so he has done demos on his American PlayStation and he couldn't enter many of the menus. But well it was nice to see what menus he could enter. I don’t know if you can change the firmware of the PlayStation if you have an European firmware. I don't know if you can change that firmware easily or it's not an illegal thing. I don't know. So it would be nice to experiment the accessibility.
Well, I hope PlayStation 5 has better accessibility, and because I have seen even people who install Linux in PlayStation 4. So some things may be done. I don't know if it's normal or if it’s easy…
(Paweł) I think this is homebrewing already. This is the dark territory where you install unofficial things on your PlayStation.
(Xavier) Yeah.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Paweł) Has been going on for ages.
(Xavier) But change the firmware may be an unofficial thing also?
(Paweł) I'm not sure.
(David) I don't think so because you can only have games of your region. They have different regions and you can only load games of your region. So officially, there would be no use in changing your firmware. So maybe you can do it like you do homebrewing, not officially.
(Mario) Okay. Yeah.
(Xavier) Don't mind. I suppose I want do it.
(Mario) It reminds me of the whole thing when DVDs were still accurate where you would not be able to watch certain things because they were designed for different region so you wouldn't be able to watch…
(Xavier) For PlayStation, I suppose there are restrictions also. I don't know exactly, but it's difficult thing. So let's stay without TTS in Europe.
(Mario) Yeah. Which sucks. So I suppose that then this friend of yours, Paweł, who made that demo He had this American TTS installed I mean, this American firmware.
(Paweł) First of all, he had some sided assistance. Second of all, he's the sort of person who learns menus, layouts by heart because he played the old consoles and stuff. But I think it was very easy to activate the TTS on the game directly once you loaded the game. I don't remember the procedure anymore, but he explained to me. You just need to press the right buttons on the pad and it would work. So in the game itself, it's not that hard. But I know that for backup, he always has somebody cited to help him out.
(Mario) OK, yeah.
(Xavier) Yeah.
(Mario) Well, overall, it's good to see that, you know, the things are improving in terms of the accessibility gaming. Well, it definitely isn't perfect, but we are moving forward because we can see that the mainstream titles are starting to be, let's say, adjusted for visually impaired community and that's nice.
Google may release the stable Android 11 update on September 8th (Mario) After the PlayStation four, we can jump to the other mobile OS territory speaking of the Android 11, which should come out soon. There are rumors and indications that possible dates for Android 11 is 8 September, though it's not being confirmed by Google yet. On some websites and in some changelogs, it's possible to see that it could be released on 8 September.
One of the things which is really important to Android 11 is the fact that, we were talking about this earlier in the podcast, not this episode, but a few episodes back, are the huge news for the users of the assistive technology. And now we can see that those things are coming along. Google was supposed to do this big event at the beginning of June with the Android beta announcement. But because of the whole COVID situation, it got postponed, but Google kind of quietly launched Android 11 beta. Now the Pixel users mostly and users of some other devices, such as One Plus devices and few others are able to install the beta and see how this stuff is working or not working for the moment. The overall changes for these improvements, for the accessibility, especially multi finger gestures and what we were speaking before are coming along. And now you can already see them in the Android 11. One of the podcasts called Anatad that speaks about it and they kind of demonstrated how it’s supposed to be looking.
There are some other things as well, right Paweł?
(Paweł) Yeah. Minor compared to the multifinger gestures, but nevertheless useful one I personally find a really genius idea, because this could have come so much earlier, because it's a really simple concept, it's one of the new TalkBack actions that you can use when you assign the gestures, which is simulation of the multimedia button. And the multimedia button is the tiny button that you probably find on most of the remote controls of your headphones. And if you know which one that is, you probably know how powerful it could be because it can play audio, stop playing audio, it can pick up or hang up the calls. It can activate or deactivate some push to talk modes in some messaging apps. It can let you do so much more. Every app that uses it can actually configure its own actions. Even some apps for the blind, for example, the DotWalker navigation that I use. It has a configurable action under this multimedia button from like voice assisted commands to some information on your route, progress and so on. And this is the Google's answer to the magic tap of the iPhone. So double tap of two fingers. And from what I heard in the Anatad podcast, it worked OK and I'm really, really looking forward to this because it will make a lot of operations really easy.
(Mario) Aha.
(Paweł) And the second thing that came and I find it really, really nice, especially if you are to help somebody sighted with their phone, is that now the accessibility shortcuts, the both volume buttons held down will also work from the lock screen.
(Mario) Okay.
(Paweł) I think it's really good because sometimes there is this relative or friend of yours who will ask you for some advice with their phone because something is not working and you know, it's best if you can take a look at it and go and fix it. And, you know, before we had to actually ask people to go to the settings to turn on TalkBack to do something else. And now I'm really happy to see also, even with this kind of manufacturers who provide custom UI for the Android, this shortcut is not being disabled. So even if I pick a Huawei phone, for example, the one that still had Android, you could hold it down and TalkBack would come up and I could do it easily. But in order to do that, I needed to have the phone unlocked, which in most cases, of course, would be OK, but sometimes there are just kind of phones that you use together with somebody who is sighted or sometimes you would like to help somebody or use somebodies phone for a bit because yours is flat on battery or broken, or you just found a phone somewhere and you would like to return it to the owner. And unless you got some help to unlock it or to do something else about it, you couldn't use it. And now you can turn on TalkBack anywhere and you can unlock it and then proceed. So I think it's a really great enhancement.
(Mario) Yeah, absolutely. But in order to do that, you need to have the phone which will be Android 11 compatible. That's the thing to remember.
(Xavier) That's the real problem, isn't it?
(Paweł) Yeah, it's difficult because there is this Eterno Android legend that if you've got a phone, especially the cheaper phones, one to two updates is the maximum you'll get. There are some really exceptional manufacturers who provide three.
(Mario) Aha.
(Paweł) And that's it. And so unless you are into going into custom roms and flashing unofficial software you're pretty much out of accessibility enhancements because some of them actually come in form of API changes, which are on the system level so there is nothing Google can do to bring it officially to you. And that is the problem with Android in a lot of cases, because then even TalkBack after some versions, loses support for this older operating systems.
(Mario) Yeah.
(Xavier) Because which one do you have actually now Paweł?
(Paweł) Motorola One and unfortunately, I don't think I'll get the Android 11. I don't know for sure, but I think we started with 8. I got the 9, I got the 10. And I think that would be it.
(Xavier) Okay.
(Mario) I'm also on the Android 8, but the fact is that I have, it's called a rugged device, basically belongs to the group of rugged devices. And the thing about the whole concept of having an Android rugged devices that 95% of them are not receiving regular updates for the newer versions of the software. So the thing is that, for example, my phone has Android 8.1 and it will stay probably that way until my phone doesn't go dead or if I don't buy the new one.
(Xavier) Yeah.
(Mario) And since, for example, these changes that are coming along in the Android are really huge ones, we haven't seen such big changes in the last 5 to 6 years. I will wait until, you know, the official release of the Android 11 is being launched and I will wait for a few more months to see how everything works and then I’ll see what I can purchase from the newer devices because, yeah, I want to have a device which is ready for that.
(Xavier) Okay.
(Mario) The thing is that I was waiting to see how it will be with the Pixels, because Google was supposed to launch this Pixel 4a but it got postponed once and then twice, and then now it's uncertain when is it coming out? Now they're saying that it should be in October. When you compare the overall features that the phone will have… It will not be 5G compatible, if we speak about having the device, which should last like 3 years or so or more should be nice feature to have. So some new device that it's 5G compatible.
(Xavier) Yes.
(Mario) But OK, it's not the main thing which bothers me. But what bothers me really is the fact that the whole Pixel devices are having a weak battery. And that's one of the things which I really find irritating in the phone in general. You can have three million of good features in the phone, but if the battery is weak, what do I have to charge the phone twice a day just to keep it running? Doesn't make sense.
(Xavier) I agree with you, battery is basic.
(Mario) We will see how the stuff comes along. it's cool to see that, you know, the things are going forward in the Android. I am hoping that Google will release some probably Pixel 5 this year. So we will see how Pixel 5 will compare to the all the requirements of the market and how it will work. Because the thing is that really the the accessibility on the Android side really came along a lot and it's coming along. Finally, a lot comparing to the iOS. So basically right now, if you're purchasing the device, it's really like we are coming to the point where it's personal choice of the person to decide what do you want to have. It's no longer required for the person to use the iOS device if you don't want to.
(David) It’s a good thing to be able to choose.
(Mario) Of course, having a choice is good. Especially if we are talking about the assistive tech. There are people who like to have multiple TTS engines installed on their phone and by default on Android That's possible and on the iOS, you are just stuck with what you have, basically. So if you're if some of the languages are not supported, then, well, better luck in a few years.
(David) hehe.
(Xavier) In Siri yes.
(Mario) Yeah. So we will see how this stuff goes. But let's hope that the Android 11 comes out on 8 September and a little bit newer Pixels.
Actually, they're saying that starting from Pixel 2 and upwards should be all compatible for it. So we will see how it will go.
Though I have to say that I don't know Paweł if you saw this info on the list, I read the information that Google is planning to starting to lock down the Android so you will not be able to install the alternative ROMs anymore.
(Paweł)They're planning and at least it was spotted that they might be introducing a hardware lock on these kind of operations. I think there was some rumors that it will be much more difficult to install external apps from APK files. There will be some kind of segregated memory. They’ll be somehow sandboxed so they don't have access to the same partition as the once installed from Google Play. But I don't know the details yet so I would hold off until we have any kind of remarks. But it might be that they're going more into the clothes, which would be not so nice because so that's why we chose Android over iOS. And now they're exactly making a U-turn and going in the other direction.
(Mario) Time will tell.
(Paweł) Yeah. For sure.
(Mario) We will see how it will be.
NVDA and JAWS Updates (Mario) That was the news about the Android thing. And next thing, which we have AR the news from the Screen reader manufacturers for Windows.
NVDA and JAWS, they both have new updates.
The NVDA is currently on the ARC 1 for the 2020.2 release. And JAWS is at the June update at the last for JAWS 2020. Each of them they have their own news. What's going on in the changelog. Paweł you got some infos.
(Paweł) In JAWS we have some improvements in the Braille viewer. The Braille viewer let's a sighted person view the text as its output to the braille display. And I think they now introduced the actual dot representations of the braille characters and there is even a live simulation of a braille display on the screen which adapts to the kind of the braille display you have. So if it's a 40, it will show a 40 on the screen. It if it's 80, it will show the 80 on the screen.
(Mario) Sounds familiar, hahaha.
(Paweł) Yeah! I think there is also a text viewer, which is sort of similar. The Braille viewer is there on the screen and if it's disconnected then it's 40 by default because this would be like the most common display size that people get. So that's the I think the only change in JAWS, really.
And regarding NVDA, then there is support added for a couple more apps. There is support for the Windows terminal which is a tabbed interface that you can, I think, get from the Microsoft store or it will come with one of the Windows updates, which is cool if you administer a couple of servers at once, you can switch them in tabs and have a look at all of your sessions from one window, but also, there is a support added for the Eset products. So Eset antivirus and Eset Internet security.
(Mario) I was surprised to see that. I didn't use the Eset products for… Wow, man, like 5, 6 years for sure. I was thinking, okay, does people still use them. But eventually they are.
(Paweł) Aha. And here I would recommend you to read the GitHub ticket that is attached to the changelog entry because it's not that easy to install it. On one side. NVDA got a module that I think was even written by the people from Eset. But in order to make it work, you have to go on the Eset website. Everything is given in ticket body and download an entry that you need to add to your database of viruses or install together with the Eset, because otherwise the antivirus will think that NVDA is a virus, because it's trying to intercept the keys. And in order to basically make it possible for NVDA to navigate Eset, you need to install this exception to the rule and allow the keyboard input to go through.
(Mario) OK.
(Paweł) So I know it's not a straightforward procedure, but at least it's there. There is also support for Nattiq Braille displays. Nattiq is a company from, I believe, United Arab Emirates, which they make a sort of notetakers for the blind, which are based on Windows computers. And you can choose the parameters of this computer.
(Mario) They are like these modular devices that you can choose which kind of specs do you want and what kind of stuff.
(Paweł) Yes, exactly. And they have their own Braille displays to go with them. So that's why the new driver. And other than that, there are some new keyboard shortcuts to open, for example, the config folder, to see the currently active profile and so on and so forth. There is a fix for one password, the famous password manager and plenty of bug fixes. So if you haven't updated yet, either, go ahead and take the RC one.
(Mario) Or you wait for few weeks and get the official 2020.2 when it comes out. Because it will come soon.
(Paweł) For sure.
How to make a WhatsApp voice or video call with Google Assistant (Mario) These were the news from the Screen reader. And the last thing for today before our demo, that’s the premiere which we will have in our podcast and I'm sure that many people will be curious to see what's going on. But before that, just a short announcement that now it's possible to make the WhatsApp audio and video calls from the Google assistant on your phone. If you're having a Google assistant, you can now give a simple command and it will respond.
I tried it also on Google Home and it doesn't work so it just works on the phone because if you give the same command on Google home, it will activate Google Duo so It's not working, it's just working on the smartphone. Overall, if you want to use the WhatsApp with the set of audio navigation and audio spoken commands, you can do that.
There will be a link for that in the show notes.
Demo: Miele WDD 131 WPS Guideline (Mario) Thankfully, we came to the end of our show. What we have is a premiere for you of the demo for the Miele Washing machine. The model is called WDD 131 guideline. That's the special washing machine designed for blind and visually impaired people. And Tanja, who is not in the podcast for us today, will do the demo because she got the machine. I am really looking forward to see and to hear how the device looks and feels and how it sounds.
(Jingle announcing demo time)
(Beep indicating that the programme on the washing machine has been started )
(Sound indicating that the door of the washing machine has been locked)
(Washing Machine started and filling with water)
(Tanja) Hello.
In this demo, I will present you the washing machine that was specifically designed for visually impaired users from Miele. The model is WDD 131 WPS guideline. If you're not familiar, Miele is a German manufacturer that manufactures high quality domestic appliances and they're attested to last twenty years. Miele appliances are pricey, including this washing machine that costed me around 1000 euros, but you pay off with the time because the experience that I heard from other people that bought Miele appliances is that you don't need reparations in the long run, at least 10-15 years because of a great quality. This special washing machine features tactile markings and a touch screen sensor with acoustic indicator. This machine does not have any braille signage, which is understandable because if you think some people do not read braille, especially people who start to lose their sight at a later age.
With the machine, you also receive the audio guide in daisy format on the USB stick in different languages. The audio guide serves to get you familiar with the washing machine, but is not as detailed as the operating instructions that you may find on the Internet in PDF format that you can also read in addition to the audio guide. The audio guide is done especially for visually impaired users, which means that when you receive the machine at home, you don't need to ask anyone to show you the buttons and the functions on the control panel, which is great because you can be fully independent.
This is not a smart machine that you would use with your mobile application, but everything is built-in. Unfortunately, it does not speak, but as soon as you learn all the functions with the audio guide, you are 99% independent. Why I say 99%? Because eather there is an issue and you cannot look on the screen, then you need to ask someone or call Be My Eyes or ask a sighted person what is happening actually because the screen is not spoken. Nevertheless, I think for the quality, as Miele is very known manufacturer for high quality domestic appliances, it is great that they decided to design a washing machine especially for visually impaired persons with the same quality that they do for the other machines and also by using the same system that they're already using, like the acoustic indicators or touch sensors.
So the washing machine can take up to eight kilograms of dry clothes and the door is in the front. On the control panel you can find raised dots and emboss lines, symbols that indicate programmes and programme parameters.
So now I'm in front of the machine. If I am touching from the right front of the machine, first I have the round programme selector for selecting 12 washing programmes. The selector features a notch where you can feel where the selector is positioned. The off setting is at 12 o'clock on the top and you can feel that off is indicated with a circle. All other programmes are indicated with a dot and also the selector will stop at each programme. When you select one of the programmes, the greeting sound from the washing machine will start. I will show you now I'll turn the round selector to the first programme on the left, which is eco.
(2 beeps indicating that the washing machine has been turned on)
And this is the greeting sound. I can turn for one more programme. It will not make any further sound, but it is clear now that I'm on a second washing programme because the indicator is showing that I selected the second dot on the left. There are 6 dots on the left and 6 dots on the right to show 12 programmes. And if I want to turn back the selector, it will also make a sound that is turned off.
(2 beeps indicating that the washing machine has been turned off)
Let me tell you what are the 12 washing programs.
(2 beeps indicating that the washing machine has been turned on)
The first programme is eco. I will turn the selecter for one more programme further to the left, which is cotton. You have also for each programme factory parameters like temperature, spin speed and extras that you can also change on the control panel by using touch sensors that I'll explain in a few seconds, but I can tell you, what are the other washing programmes on this machine. The next one on the left, third, is minimum Irun. 4th one on the left delicate.5th one, woolen. And 6th one four shirts. I don't know if you can also hear from my mike when I turn to the next programme. It makes a click.
(Sound of selector making few clicks in a row)
So it's a standard selector, but you can feel really clearly when you turn to the next programme, which is very convenient. I will switch back to Selector to the 12 o'clock position to turn it off.
(2 beeps indicating that the washing machine has been turned off)
And tell you what are the programmes on the right.
(2 beeps indicating that the washing machine has been turned on)
It greeted me and the first one is Express, a very short programme. The second one on the right is four dark garments and jeans. Third one on the right, outerwear. 4th one on the right, proofing. 5th on the right is drain and spin, which is a very short one 12 minutes and the 6th one on the right is separate rinse and starch.
What is really nice on this machine is that you can easily adjust all the programme parameters like temperature, spin speed and extras without any issues, which very often is not so easy on standard machines. What makes this washing machine special is not only that it has tactile markings, but it gives you audio feedback, which makes it different from ordinary machines that you may adapt. You may attach tactile markings, but you don't receive the feedback so you can easily make a mistake.
I'll try to describe how it looks like. From the selector you have tactile line that guides you from number 9, if you imagine the clock, to the left towards the control fields and the first buttons that you can touch, these are not really buttons, these are touch sensors, but they're all indicated with tactile markings, And the first one is the start, like a circle and around it you can touch some dots that prevent you to touch the start unintentionally.
Above you have the delay function if you want to delay starting of the washing from 1 hour up to 7 hours. The delay function has a shape of a diamond and on the left and on the right you have a dot on which you can touch and you will change the parameters. For example, I will touch the diamond to activate it.
(Activation beep)
On the right
(Low beep)
I will increase
(Higher beep)
So the first one was 1 hour, two hours,
(Higher beep)
3 hours,
(Higher beep)
4,
(Higher beep)
5,
(Higher beep)
6,
(Higher beep)
and 7.
If I want to decrease the hours, I will touch the dot on the left.
(beeps from higher to lower pitch)
And
(2 quick beeps indicating deactivation)
I can deactivate it by touching again the diamond.
If I continue to go on the left of the tactile line, there are 4 different columns showing temperature, spin speed, express and cap dosing.
Starting from the left you have a vertical column with 6 options for temperature. Starting from the bottom first, you have the indication of the symbol that you can touch so that you know what you are selecting. The temperature is indicated with a symbol plus. Going up you have the first option under temperature, which is cold.
(Low beep)
the sound is lower.
(Higher beep)
20 degrees, a little bit higher.
(Higher beep)
30.
(Higher beep)
40.
(Higher beep)
60.
(Higher beep)
90.
The column on the right that is separated with a vertical line is indicated with a circle. Again, on the bottom, you can touch the representation of a circle that will not make any sound, but if you go above
(Low beep)
you will find the first option no spin.
(Higher beep)
reads hold.
(Higher beep)
600
(Higher beep)
900
(Higher beep)
1200
(Higher beep)
1400.
The next one on the right is for extras that is represented with a minus symbol. 4 different extras.
(Beep)
The first option is for soaking that is represented as a tap of water.
(Beep)
Prewash - wavy horizontal line.
(Beep)
Water plus represented with a plus.
(Beep)
Short, represented with double arrows to the right.
Each of the extras, you can also select and de-select.
(Beep)
One beep means select
(2 quick beeps)
and two quick beeps means de-selected.
The 4th column is four, the special Miele cap dosing system represented by a rectangular. You have three options for detergent, additives or softener. They're very convenient if you don't feel comfortable using liquid detergents or powder, but personally, I don't use them, so I cannot tell you my experience, But this is an option that may simplify your washing.
On the left we have the detergent drawer on which you can touch embossed Miele letters. And when you open it, the first section that is covered and that you can open, is for the capsule or for the softener. So I’ll close it back. On the left, you have a bigger section that is for the detergent for the main Wash, and on the right, the smaller section for the detergent, for the prewash. As I open the drawer, I will put the liquid detergent because I prefer the liquid one.
Okay, I will close the drawer.
I will close the door of the washing machine.
(click that the door has been closed)
That closes very easily.
I will activate the washing programme
(click of the programme selector and 2 beeps indicating that the washing machine has been turned on)
following the line from The selector, until the break of the line, above it, I can find the small dots that guide me to the start that I will press now.
(beep indicating the start and sound that the door has been locked)
The door has been locked. Now, after few seconds the washing will start.
(Washing Machine started and filling with water)
When the wash cycle is finished
(2 beeps indicating end of washing programme)
the machine will alert you with the audible sound.
(2 beeps indicating end of washing programme)
After the washing programme ends, the anti-crease phase is switched on for 30 minutes to prevent creasing of the clothes and the drum will continue to turn.
(2 beeps indicating end of washing programme)
What this means for us is that the door is still locked and I will be able to unlock it by touching the start.
(2 quick beeps)
You could hear the double audio beep.
(Beep and sound that the door has been unlocked)
And, when I touched the start for the second time, the door has been unlocked and I can open the door of the washing machine and turn back the selector to 12 o'clock position.
(2 beeps indicating that the washing machine has been turned off)
(Jingle indicating end of demo)
Farewell (Mario) I think we are one of the first podcasts overall that will have the possibility of reviewing such products because there are some other podcasts which were saying that they will do the demo, but they didn't do it yet. I’m really curious to see the feedback after that from our listeners.
We are available, as always, on our Twitter which got occupied an hour mailbox is getting busy as well, which is nice to see. We will be away for a month. We are going to have a summer break because we all needed. In August, there will be no EBU Access Cast, but we will be back with the new and old faces in September. So until next time have a good vacation. Stay safe because the COVID crisis is still going on and we are seeing some eventual local lockdowns again and new measures appearing. Where the masks, wash your hands and stay safe and until next time bye-bye.
(Everyone bye-bye)
Bye. See you. Thank you.
(VoiceOver) Thank you for listening. This has been EBU Access Cast.
Welcome back to EBU Access Cast - podcast about assistive technology for blind and partially sighted people!
We are happy to say that from now on you are able to listen our podcast with the transcript which will bring better inclusion to all the listeners with different dissabilities, so if you want to read what we said, head over to it!
Lockdown measures are being eased further after 3 months of restrictions and most of us have been teleworking in that period. Owning a decent headset with a good microphone is important for virtual meetings. Tanja purchased new headset from MPOW for this purpose and shared with us her impressions.
We talk about the new features in iOS 13.5 and the Apple Exposure Notification System which lets apps from public health authorities and governments worldwide help people figure out if they've been exposed to COVID-19, and if so, what steps to take next to minimize the spread of the virus.
Staying on the same topic we spoke about SODAR - the Google's experimental web app that helps the user measure 2 metres by using augmented reality and keep the distance from other people. None of us managed to make it work on our devices. Mario recommended to use the Sunu band for this purpose as the user can adjust in the phone app the distance of an obstacle to be announced.
Microsoft released the Spring feature update for Windows 10, a.k.a. version 2004
wwith many accessibility improvements for blind and partially sighted people.
What if we could read braille without touching the surface? German researchers have developed an ultrasonic haptic speaker HaptiRead that allows to display Braille dots without contact.
New Art Scanning Method Offers 3-D Image Of Painting’s Brush Strokes This technology could help improve online art lessons and virtual museum tours as well as make paintings more accessible to visually impaired people.
As of May 2020, the alternative text has been enabled by default on the web interface of Twitter as well as iOS and Android apps. This is a great progress for our community and we hope that users will take advantage of it and describe images that they are adding to their tweets.
We take the oportunity to share you the anouncement on the webinar from Be My Eyes on how top companies like Microsoft and google are benefiting from accessibility
Be My Eyes introduces customizable Siri shortcuts for iPhone users.
Paweł presented us the project Hello Emma that uses provisoric Siri setup for the languages that don't support it natively using a system of interconnected Siri shortcuts that respond to commands and perform the usual Siri actions. The languages supported for now are Czech, Slovak and there is a development process going on for Polish and Hungarian.
We spoke about the I-Cane that is a smart cane with navigation via a connected phone app and obstacle avoidance developed through a cooperation of the Lion Club departments in different European countries.
We hope to enspire some of our listeners to start doing workout at home or to continue if they had to stop in their sport centres. We found few resources with audio described workouts.
The first is from BlindAlive where you can download different workouts from cardio, pilates to yoga meditations, whatever you prefer.
Another place to find audio described workoutss is at the website of the British Blind Sport The accessible fitness trackers can help you in monitoring your progress to help you attain your health and fitness goals.
Google Fit is one of them and Mario shared his expirience with us on the accessibility of the application on the Fosil Gen 5 watch.
As always, we look forward to you sharing your comments and feedback with us. Feel free to reach out via our email or Twitter. Until the next edition!
[VoiceOver]
This programme is financially supported by the fundings from the European Commission.
You are listening to the EBU Access Cast. The first official podcast from European Blind Union about assistive technology for blind and partially sighted people.
And here are the hosts.
[Tanja] Hello and welcome to the EBU Access Cast. This is episode 23. My name is Tanja Kleut and I will be the host of this podcast. We have the full crew and I have with me Mario from Luxembourg.
[Mario] Hey, guys.
[Tanja] Hello, and Pawel from Poland.
[Pawel] Hello. Welcome back, everyone.
[Tanja] Hello. And Bart Simons from Belgium.
[Bart] Hello, Tanja. Hello Pawel. Hello. Mario.
[Tanja] Hello. Great to have you here. All.
so what's up, guys?
[Mario] I started to work back from my office, so no more teleworking.
[Tanja] Yeah, deconfinement has started. But I'm working still from home, I think it is safer. But at least if we can work from home, I think it's safer.
[Mario] Yeah. What about the rest of you guys? Are you still teleworking?
[Pawel] So here the lockdown is easing. So there are new measures in place to let us be out and about. I personally work as I worked, so I do things online anyway. But it looks like I might be moving soon to another place, too. And with possibly new working perspectives. So, yeah, I hope it will be already on place, at least at the beginning, so I can get to know everything and everybody. But so far the people that I know mostly go back to work anyway. So this is also getting easier here. But yeah, some still do stay. And I've heard already that it's going to be a sort of trend as well, that some people are going to stay on remote work. Some feel actually more comfortable working like three days in the office and two days on remote working and they find a good balance. So maybe that will be a new lifestyle.
[Mario] I wouldn't complain to have like every Friday working from home. I would be very happy with that. We'll see.
[Bart] Same for us. We go to something like mixed. It's allowed to go to the office. But yeah, you can see that they are still precautious and I haven't been so far, but I plan to go more regularly because also in the summer holiday our daughter will be more home and it will be more difficult to work from home when she's running here around. So it's good that we start to have a choice.
[Tanja] Yes, I agree with you. Regarding telework, I purchased a new PC headset, exactly for teleworking, with which I'm really very happy. The manufacturer is MPOW. And the model is 071. So they have the 3.5 mm jack + USB, meaning that you plug the 3.5 in the connector and then you can attach the USB directly to the computer. Which means that you can use both or either 3.5 or USB depending on the computer or phone that you would like to use, which is very handy. I tried it also on my iPhone and it works perfectly with this 3.5 together with the lightning adaptor. They're very light. They're only 175 grams and at the moment I'm speaking from these headphones, so I hope the sound is also OK. But I think for conferencing it is the good quality. For the earpads, they have a memo foam which makes them soft and it's not unpleasant to wear them for long hours.
[Mario] Which is important.
[Tanja] Which is very important for teleworking, exactly. And also the mike has a pop filter, it is attached on the headset. I cannot detach it, but. Well, anyway, I am using it mostly with the mike. And the price point is 40€. I bought it on Amazon. They arrived very quickly in a few days. So if you need such a headset, I really recommend them.
[Bart] You don't mind to have your both ears covered while your working longer periods?
[Tanja] No, for me it's better because I don't hear the sounds around me. Sometimes I have a little bit noisy environments, so for me is much, much better to have ears well covered. So maybe even I am not hearing well around me, so maybe I'm even speaking more loudly. But no, it's perfect for me. And I bought this headset because I had already before the standard headset with extra mike. So the mike was not attached to the headset, but I was searching for a headset with additional volume controls and mike mute button and well, it has also mute for speaker or for the headset.
[Bart] Separate?
[Tanja] Exactly, separate, which is very handy because during the conferences it is wise to mute yourself because when you have many people on the conference, if you have your mike active, it makes a strange noise. So it's perfect for this.
[Pawel] Do you also have something about online control? Because I read the description of the headset on the Amazon link you provided us before and I saw there's something about online, something control. Maybe I misunderstood it, but is there actually some possibility and a need to control this headset externally for some functions, or is it just a touch control on the cable?
[Tanja] It is attached.
[Pawel] I can also tell it works great for podcasts. I can hear you really clearly and from close proximity, not too close but really close. You get understood very clearly and your voice carries through really nicely because I'm also thinking of getting myself something extra for podcasting. I'm using the Zoom H2, which is an actual sound recorder. But the thing is that it has to stay because of the way the cables are organised here, quite close by my fan of the laptop and Mario can already say something about this. My laptop fans are running and it is definitely heard in the recordings, so I thought I might get some extra podcast things. So my mouth is closer to the computer and also thinking between either a headset or an actual like unidirectional capacitive microphone, more studio-like, but I don't have a proper studio here. So, maybe it's too much of an overkill like a Blue Yeti. But I think a headset like this, it could work,
[Tanja] I think for the noise it's perfect because this headset has also noise reduction. So I compared this headset to my Snowball microphone and it was doing a better noise reduction comparing to the mike because I guess that usually the microphones are collecting more sounds comparing to the headset.
[Mario] A friend of mine bought the same headset and we had a chat over Zoom a few weeks ago, and I was really surprised when I heard him. What's this? This sounds really good. Yeah. I have to say also that you are coming very well through the headset. And when you compare what you're getting for the price, it's really good. I mean, the fact that the mike is really nice and clear. Is great the fact that you have the controls right on the headset. This is also fantastic. You can use it even with your phone, which has a 3.5 mm headphone in because it has standard
3.5 thing which you just plug into this USB. So, yeah, it's really versatile and if somebody is looking for a decent headset I would say, go for it because eventually they are better than some other ones which are more expensive.
[Tanja] And when I was checking other headsets, I saw that many others are much more heavy. And I think if you're planning to use a headset for a longer period of time, it is quite important to have a light headset. And the warranty is 2 years. The one which you get from Amazon is 1 year, but you can extend it on the manufacturer's website to 2 years. Which is great.
[Pawel] Is the wiring stable? Are the cables solid? Do they look like they will last long?
[Tanja] For me, yes. They seem quite stable for me.
[Pawel] I also like this dual approach of actually giving you a jack based headset with an adaptor to extend it to USB, because then you can reuse the adaptor for some other devices as well. And I saw also these products on the Internet somewhere where you have a jack combined with Bluetooth. So you can disconnect the headset that you bought and plug in something else to the adaptor and stream over Bluetooth. I like this kind of approach. This is really universal.
[Mario] Yeah, that's cool.
[Tanja] Okay. Do you have some other recommendations for new gadgets?
[Mario] Actually, not really for my side.
[Tanja] It's not a problem if you don't.
[Mario] Not for this month. Oh yeah, I have. But we will talk about it later.
[Pawel] Yeah. Same here because we actually got our mother a Mi Band 4 and we can talk about it later because we also have something for fitness lovers here. So we'll definitely get to that. But it's an interesting device as well. And I know that blind people are also satisfied users of this particular sports band. So listen on.
[Tanja] The first news is from Apple. Apple released iOS 13.5 already a few weeks ago. And there are several new functionalities. And one of them, which is maybe the most interesting one, is the Exposure Notification System API. That is a new system that we spoke already in previous episodes that public health agencies can now incorporate in their applications. This has been shown, the contact tracing system, one of the most efficient ways to find people who are diagnosed with COVID 19. And what is important is that it is fully voluntary so the user can decide whether to use this system or not. And also they say that the application or the API is not collecting the location from your device. So in this sense, we keep our privacy. And also public health agencies have samples from Google and Apple because they published sample codes on which they can build their applications. So this applies also for Android.
[Bart] This is specifically for iOS 13 and it will not be released for earlier versions? I have my iPhone six and iOS 12. They won't bring this API to the older versions?
[Tanja] Yeah, which is a pity.
[Bart] I shouldn't get sick then. That's OK. That's a deal.
[Mario] I've heard that during the later time of the year they will find a way how to do the back port for the previous versions of iOS. So it should be possible that you will get it.
[Pawel] I think it should be possible to distribute it, for example. I'm not sure for 100 percent, but I can imagine this could go as a carrier service update. Honestly, we were speaking about iOS, but this is, I think, even more tragic with Android, where you are not really sure if you'll get the next update. And if Google decides, OK, we'll include it in the security updates, which everyone will get for a little longer. That's fine, because many people will get it. But well, if you bought a device and suddenly it loses support for the following Android version, then we're in a bit more trouble. On one side, we cannot use it, on the other side, how reliable can you find it to be if it will not even support most of the devices the society is using at the moment? So, yeah, it's interesting how they will distribute it for older devices. I think there should be a way.
[Mario] Actually, regarding the Android thing, I have it already on my phone and my phone is running 8.0. It probably came out with a carrier service update, which I received a few days ago. Because right now, if I go on the settings and under the Google account, there is a separate heading for the COVID 19 notifications, which is exactly what's also available on the Apple devices, though for the moment, everything is disabled because I don't have any other apps compatible with it. But let's say that my phone is kind of ready to receive the apps if they come on line.
Pawel, you should maybe also check your phone. If you received the carrier's services, your phone should also have it.
[Pawel] I will have a look. Because I had a couple of those recently and also some security updates. And also our national app has been made compatible with these protocols in the latest update. So I would imagine this should be already available.
[Tanja] Here in Luxembourg, we don't have an application yet.
[Mario] No, the latest information is that they will make an app because until very recently and I'm talking like the beginning of this week, there was an agreement in the government that, yeah, we should rely more on the human contact tracing and blah, blah, blah.
[Tanja] Initially the politicians were not really keen to adopt this.
[Mario] At one point, one of the parties that was against it, changed their mind. So it's probable that we will get something in the near future. But yeah, let's wait and see.
[Tanja] The other functionality that I wanted to mention, is the one that, if you're wearing the mask, phones skip the face ID and pass to the passcode field. It will not tell you anymore that the face has not been recognised, but it will skip directly to the passcode, which is more convenient.
[Mario] Did anybody try? Is it really working?
[Pawel] I heard from somebody who has, and it works. My only concern is that this devalidates the whole reason of face ID, I suppose. Or is it like a more secure version that can distinguish your face or somehow your characteristics? Your physionomy?
[Tanja] Exactly. This is what I was thinking. So then apparently just you are switching from a more secure to a less secure way of accessing the phone.
[Mario] Sure. But that's the only way, if you're wearing a mask, how you can unlock the device.
[Pawel] There might be a way of tricking somebody else's phone into unlocking even though you are not the owner?
[Bart] Well, you still need the PIN code. This has always been the fallback mechanism. If your face could not be recognised, there was always a fallback: a four or six digit passcode. Now, there is just a little time saver that will not try several attempts in recognising you when it sees a mask. So it is just a two, three second time saver that they added now and switch more quickly to the fallback pass code.
[Tanja] Ok. after Apple, I would like to focus on the Google application. So Google developed an experimental social distancing web application. Sodar is the acronym for Social Distancing Radar that uses augmented reality to help you keep the distance of 2 metres. It is only an Android application and it can work only from Google Chrome browser.
[Pawel] I have tried it on my Motorola One, which already supports the AR play services. That is the needed component to make it run. And I must say, I had difficulties using it. I accepted all the permissions. The way it's supposed to work is, you draw a ring of approximately 2 metres around yourself with the camera. So you just turn the phone round and round and then it's supposed to detect any kind of obstacles within the distance to tell you that you're probably too close to somebody. Unfortunately, from what I've read, it's not trained enough to distinguish between people and other objects. If you have furniture around, it's also detected as a possible person that you should be in distance with. But I even didn't get to that point because the Web page, at least to me, was completely blank. So there was no control to click. There were no instructions that would tell me what to do. There was nothing. And even though I circled the phone round and round, I didn't get any kind of feedback, any sound or vibration or anything. So I suppose this is either not accessible or I didn't try hard enough, which could also be. But yeah, potentially this could be not accessible at the moment.
[Mario] I tried it on my phone, but my phone is too old, so I wasn't even able to get it to run because I'm running Android 8. It's probably for Android 9 or 10. So nothing for me. No distance. I have to go two metres from my mike.
[Tanja] So you have to use your cane to measure the distance.
[Mario] And hold the tip of my cane and give the other end ... [laughter]
[Pawel] There is potential for a new generation of assistive technology that we could get at some possible expo next year maybe and social distance measures. There may be some kind of sonar, similar product.
[Mario] Actually, I just thought of one more use of the Sunu band. It has the possibility of fine adjustments, like, how far do you want something to be announced. So there is a distance of 2 metres.
[Pawel] You need profiles, I guess, to switch between when you want to detect just people and people and obstacles and everything else?
[Mario] You have two profiles basically on the Sunu: the close one and the further one, for indoors and outdoors. So basically I think that already the indoors, I have to check.
[Tanja] The indoors is one point five already. But you can change it.
[Mario] You can change it to 2 metres.
[Pawel] Great one.
[Tanja] The next topic is Windows 10 accessibility news. And there are plenty of them. Narrator added sounds in most common actions. E.g. scan on and scan off was announced before with the words, now it can be announced with sounds. Also browsing has been improved. NARRATOR now starts to read automatically the page from the top. And it assures that the page has been loaded. It's an easy way for us to know whether it has been loaded. And also now we can have a summary of landmarks and links and headings on the page, which we do have with other screen readers, but now we can have it also with Narrator. That is very convenient. And this can be activated by pressing Narator key and S on the keyboard. It is great to see that Narrator is improving with every update.
[Mario] Sure. They also support Firefox now.
[Tanja] Exactly. In Firefox it works too, together with Google Chrome and Edge Chromium or old Edge even.
[Pawel] What I also found interesting in this update, is that they included a feature which displays the most popular links on a particular Web site, as measured by Bing. And what you can also do is when there is a link which says here (that doesn't tell you much as to where it leads) You can actually check what's the title of the destination link. So before you even go there, just by looking at the list of links, you can tell to which page it is taking you.
And this is an interesting discussion, especially with Bing popular links, how much we can go further with accessibility if we start using data collected from what people do. And also really thinking about this, when Facebook had an issue of face recognition technology in Europe, which many people associate with spying and basically some system somewhere knowing the face of every person because of the photos.
And I thought, but, hey, thanks to this technology, I'll be able to tell who of my friends is in the photo I am viewing. And this is really interesting. Issues of privacy and collecting data and so on and accessibility features being also based on cloud, because as soon as you don't have internet connection, you cannot make use of this feature. So a piece of this accessibility is taken away from you. But it's really interesting how far we would go with accessibility if more data was collected.
[Tanja] Yes, exactly. Accessibility in collision with privacy.
[Pawel] Sometimes screen readers are treated like viruses.
[Mario] You remember that situation a few years ago when I don't remember which antivirus was complaining that NVDA was treated as false positive.
[Tanja] Ah, really?
[Pawel] I think Kaspersky or another antivirus didn't let you browse its windows with a keyboard so you cannot navigate through the interface with the screen reader on, unless you turn off some kind of protection, because then it accepts the pass through key input, which sort of navigates through controls. So I think it's a sort of historical atavism where the screen readers, in order to operate, actually had to inject their processes into every EXE they operated on because there were no native API's to work with. This was the issue of Firefox a couple of years ago where suddenly Firefox stopped working for many people or was very laggy. And the reason was that they were switching into this new API's, which were natively written to accommodate assistive technology as opposed to injecting screen reader into every process. So this is actually like still seen this there was the unofficial way of accessing the computer, the Screen reader, which had to sort of play the bad guy to allow access. It's really interesting.
[Tanja] I had recently the experience of the application of my bank where when the screen reader was active, the application was closing. And when the screen reader Voiceover was not active, I could access my bank easily. So probably Voiceover was identified as an issue, but I reported this to my bank and hopefully the fix will be in July.
[Pawel] Keep our fingers crossed.
[Tanja] And some other new functionalities in Windows 10, are that now magnifier follows the mouse pointer. I was not aware that before, this was not the case. So now, apparently partially impaired users will be able to more easily follow the mouse pointer with a magnifier. And also they will be able to personalise the text pointer to make it more wider or in a different colour.
[Mario] And if I'm correct, also they redesigned the cursors. So the cursors are now much easier to spot for the visually impaired people, especially in the text areas. So that's also important. And what else?
[Pawel] The reading feature.
[Mario] They improved also the reading feature for Narrator. So the pronunciation is much better. It doesn't make so big pauses or stuff like that. It sounds more natural. And what's also very important is that if you're using Microsoft Outlook for your e-mails, it's much easier to skim through the messages and be much faster and more productive with the narrator, which is great.
When I'm looking at these changes, what's happening in windows, it always brings me to the question "what would happen if we would have the same choices that we would have today if we would have them a few years earlier"? Would we use very famous commercial products for our home use, or we would stick to Windows Narrator, which is really coming along very well. I mean, for a home user right now who is not very picky about using various kinds of applications. Narator can do more than fine. And you wouldn't need to spend so much money in the other products, not to say anything against the other products. But I'm just saying, it's really cool to see Windows having finally the product which is becoming a Very good product. I can safely say that Narrator is now becoming a screen reader, it's no longer the assistive aid or something like that. It really has screen reader functions. And the only thing basically what are we missing right now where we could see the improvements in the future versions are some kind of scripts or modules for Narator.
[Bart] That was going to be my question. Does it work well in third party applications now? In the beginning it was mostly working in Windows and Office applications and Microsoft products. But, for instance, this Zoom program that we are currently using, does Narator work there as well?
[Mario] I don't know. I didn't check it. The kind of trend, and I can understand that, is that it natively supports Microsoft products? I didn't test it in the outside environment.
For all the things related to Windows and Microsoft products, there are cases where Narator even works better than the other products as well.
[Bart] I think where you say indeed there is no scripting language like you have with commercial screen readers
[Mario] Not yet.
[Bart] Maybe if you make very limited use of your computer, it could be enough.
[Pawel] It would work well in the Windows 10 apps that you get off the Microsoft Store, There it might be even better. And I also heard some people had more success with certain music products. I think it was either something from native instruments or something that I think was slightly better.
[Bart] It's also easier for developers who want to test with a screen reader if they have it already on their device bundled with the operating system. It is easier to ask from a developer "did you test with a screen reader?".
[Mario] Yeah, sure. Especially now that Narator basically supports all the browsers, so people can test it. And there is also a developer mode in Narator, which is kind of a screen curtain. So people can test it even that way.
[Pawel] There is also one small feature I wanted to point out in this Narrator update which could be interesting for partially sighted people. It's the reading mode where you can actually have Narrator read something for you: a passage of text for example. This is especially for people who experience an eye fatigue when they read for too long and certain longer texts are already too difficult for them to read with their eyes. And you can actually point to that passage and have it read. And there is a mini player that you can use to handle all the operations like play, stop, fast forward, rewind and so on. It's great because all the major operating systems have it already. Both Apple and Google ecosystems have it so why not Microsoft? And it's good that it's finally there.
[Mario] And we forgot to mention that all of these things are coming with this last update of Windows 10, which is 2004. So if you don't have it, check out in the updates section. If your computer is receiving it, if not yet, wait for a few days or a few weeks until it becomes ready for your PC and then you will be able to get it, or if you're really keen on testing the stuff, you can do the manual updates with windows updates assistant. It should be safe. But, yeah, we just have to give you a warning that there is a possibility that sometimes if you do that, the hardware may fail on something. And it should not be so stable, so maybe if you're not 100% sure you might want to wait until you receive official notification from Microsoft.
[Tanja] German researchers in Bayreuth University have developed an ultrasonic haptic speaker that allows to display braille without any contact. Their system is very interesting now as we are trying to have minimal contact around us because of COVID 19. But this is not ready yet. It has been tested with different participants and the success is 88%. So 88% of the participants were able to identify the 4 dots. They say.
[Mario] Why not 6?
[Tanja] Well, they say 4. Maybe with 6 it would be even more difficult. But I think it's a very interesting concept as it is contactless, but it would be really interesting to experience it, as I wonder how much time you would need to read with such a system, because already with Braille, most of the persons need more time to read. And with this, I guess it will take even longer. But I guess it is only for short text, like in some public spaces, like maybe the direction or number of the floor in the elevator, those were mentioned as examples.
[Pawel] And they also mentioned bus schedules. And I'm not sure, this is a bit longer information and a bit more structured. It should be a sort of a table. So I'm also wondering how because it's a longer text and in general, I'm quite curious how it feels to your hand because they compare it to some bubbles of air. Bubbles of air are OK, I can feel the pressure. I can feel something preventing me from touching further but how can I distinguish that there are different things in this outburst of waves and that they actually are forming dots of a letter or of a character? It's quite interesting, I guess, because languages like German or English have contractions, then it may speed up the reading process, especially of longer pieces. And I also think this would have applications even outside of Korona situation, because quite often there are situations where you're not supposed to touch something. Nevertheless, you're supposed to be told about something you should take care of. So, for example, do not touch electric device. Sighted people have the signage that you shouldn't touch something, you should be careful not to touch or not to come close by something and we are deprived of this information because there is no way to convey it to us. So maybe this would be also a solution here.
[Tanja] I'm not sure whether it is displaying only letter by letter or?
[Pawel] There are 3 stages they mentioned. There is a constant stream. There is a letter by letter or character by character. And there is line by line, something like that. There are different conceptions they had. There are different modes.
[Tanja] I wonder about the line by line. We were never able to read line by line. We are always reading character by character. So it will be interesting to see if you can even read more. But on the understanding level, I'm not sure if really the brain is able to pick up all these characters at the same time.
[Pawel] But there are people who are trained, I heard, to read braille with more than one finger at once. And this way they were able to be faster. But I think they are exceptions.
[Mario] And here comes the blind octopus.
[Tanja] The next is similar in a sense, but also different. It is also a research done by Penn State and the New Jersey Institute of Technology. So you are able to scan and it makes a 3D model from impressionist and oil paintings. And this is a collaboration between artists and researchers, which makes art more accessible to blind and visually impaired. It uses some OCT technology. This has been already used before.
[Pawel] That is the computer tomography Maybe some of you had this kind of research examination done on you when they were scanning some kind of waves of your brain to basically check things on your retina? I know it was quite a popular examination of many people with visual impairments.
[Tanja] And apparently the model can show the fine brushed stroke paintings, which would be also quite nice to experience because only by reading the description is hard to imagine really how accurate it is. And the research is at the final stage.
[Pawel] Ok, that could be interesting.
[Mario] That would be interesting to see when it comes. I personally don't have a clue what is going on over there. To be honest. But OK. If I am able to see by some chance 3D representations of some painting. Yes, sure am curious to see how it works. As of right now, I really don't have any idea how it works.
[Pawel] The way I understand it is that it takes a huge number of scans of really small sections of the painting with a special platform and this OCT device. And then it turns it into, I believe, some kind of technical software based representation and data. And you can use it to print a 3D model. So this way you can make it haptically accessible.
[Mario] Oh, OK.
[Pawel] That's what I read on the website. So I think it will be like a scanner, a sort of 3D scanner for a 3D printer.
[Mario] So overall, it should not be something that could be instantly available to see, but it would be an ongoing process like a 3D converter or whatever.
[Tanja] Hopefully, we'll see one day something similar. Also here in Europe. So as of May 2020, Twitter has improved the alt text. And now it is enabled by default on websites and iOS and Android applications. Before you had to enable it manually in the settings.
[Bart] Finally. It has been in the settings for so long. And you had to tell everybody to turn it on first.
[Tanja] And now they also increased the number of characters. You can write 1000 characters in the alternative text, which doesn't mean that you have to use them all because alternative text is short and accurate, which we as blind persons know. But very often there is a misunderstanding from sighted people who are writing alternative text, but this is maybe the subject of another presentation.
[Bart] Well, maybe they should also instruct people or raise awareness. Many tweets contain images of text: a screenshot or literally a picture of a page with text. And then if you really would want to make it accessible, you probably would need the 1000 characters, but it would be better to not make this picture in the first place.
[Tanja] Exactly. And now you're also able to add alternative text on animated GIFs on web pages and mobile application too.
[Pawel] So it should be actually interesting if there was a cooperation going on with GIPHY, which is, I think the biggest delivery service of GIF content for now. And with the help of community, they managed to alternative describe at least some of their GIFs. So wherever you want to use them, be it Facebook, be it your messaging apps, whatever you can actually get from an accessible database. And you can not only read what's on them, but you can also find a fitting gif animation to go with your content that you're sending.
[Bart] That would have to be multilingual as well as you want your alt text in the same language as your tweet?
[Pawel] True that. But that's the same issue for audio description and for many other things. But yeah, maybe Twitter will feed back the alternative texts done by others on GIFs back to the sources of the GIFs because gifs are usually taken from somewhere. That'll be great.
[Bart] That's right.
[Mario] Or maybe we could have some use of AI in that kind of case as well.
[Pawel] Yeah, emoji are already accessible, pretty much. So why not GIFs?
You probably know the situation with Siri that it is not available in all the languages you would like it to be, and especially in recent years I don't think there has been any expansion to the list of supported languages. And many users in many countries are getting impatient, especially because every now and again you see rumours popping up that some traces of code in the latest bit of iOS suggest that Siri will be available in this and that language. It's almost certain we can just await the update and then is not there. So finally, somebody got impatient enough to actually take action. And as a result, there is a series of Siri shortcuts or iOS shortcuts posted on a website Https://helloemma.cz. It's a Czech project which you can install for your particular language. And these shortcuts combined together quite neatly will do quite a lot of what Siri can already do, except it will do it in your language. It is using your language support for the text dictation that you already use to dictate your text messages or e-mails or any other text. And it executes certain commands you give it and it gives you vocal responses and it performs actions. So it's sort of workarounds. And you can see it's a workaround, by the way it works. But it's an effective one. And actually it's quite powerful and I'm pretty sure the developer spent a lot of time combining this together. So what you can do for now, the languages supported are Czech and Slovak. There is Polish on the way, there is Hungarian on the way. I heard there is also Greek on the way and there might be even an English tutorial on translation. So even if you don't speak any of the languages above, you can still take an advantage and translate it into your own language. The installation is quite complex because you have to click the links for shortcuts in Safari and install the shortcut and then go back to Safari and install another shortcut because it's basically a system of extensions. There is one main one which reacts to the Hello Emma command. And then there are the plugins which let you do this feature, that feature, that feature. And so the installation is quite complex and after you installed it, you'll be asked for a thousand permission requests to confirm them. So the first running is quite tiresome, but I think it's worth it because at the end of it all, you can actually call people, of course. You can send text messages and e-mails. You can even text people over messaging apps. You can search for songs. You can ask for directions to a certain place. You can ask for the weather. You can check the name days if that's a thing in your country, you can search on Google, open apps and much, much more of what Siri can already do. And it's quite intelligent in that it actually greets you of different greetings every time you start it. And the responses vary. So you can tell it's not just a voice control system, it's actually sort of voice assistant. And what you can even do that Siri cannot do is you can switch the language of dictation in mid sentence. So if you would like to type a couple of words in English, then a couple of words in another language, you can just give it a command and it will switch the languages. You can search for songs in different languages. You just have to tell it. You can actually insert data of people into messages. So if you promise somebody that you will send them the phone number of somebody, you can just give it a special command and the number will be inserted into the text field and much, much more. And there are videos that demonstrate how it works on the developer's YouTube channel. Sadly, only in Czech but I have watched them all and I can definitely tell you it was impressive when you looked at it, and I'm quite looking forward to when it comes out in Polish. I already saw it run on an iPhone in the Czech language. And from a VoiceOver perspective, when you call out Hello Emma for the first time, you will definitely hear that the shortcut app is opening and doing something. So VoiceOver will talk a bit but it doesn't interfere with your dictation, fortunately. You have to actually import the contacts some different way. It didn't just integrate with your contacts. You have to export them to iCloud first and then the shortcut would import them somehow differently. So I think it's a necessary trick that you have to do and then you have to somehow remember to update this backup list. Well, so it's a homemade project. So I think things like that will happen every now and again. It didn't understand commands for the weather for tomorrow, for example. It only gives you the weather right now. I think I observed one crash, but only one. Other than that it was perfect. There might be things that we wonder why they happen. Well, I would say thumbs up to somebody that they had the idea and they found a way to combine all these shortcuts together. And at least in this way, I believe some people, especially people with motor impairments, will benefit greatly from such a solution.
[Bart] Very creative to use Apple's own weapons to dig a little bit into their well protected environment.
[Pawel] And I think there will be new extensions coming. And I think the best part about it is, if you know how to, you can create your own plugins for Emma so she can do even more for you.
[Mario] Can she bring a beer?
[Pawel] If you have a smart fridge.
Yes, I recently read about the smart curtain device for moving your curtains. So I guess she would be able, but for now, it does what it does and I think it's quite a lot already. And I'm looking forward to see how far the project will develop.
[Mario] Yes, sounds really geeky.
[Pawel] Yes. Especially if you see it from the inside, how it works and the amount of work you have to do to install the shortcuts. But, yeah, everything you do for your comfort.
[Tanja] Hopefully, at some point we can also expect the Croatian language for VoiceOver and also then a similar system for Siri. But, well, for the moment, this is not yet the case.
[Mario] Let's see for the iOS 14. I remember a few months ago, there was a huge announcement that the Croatian government had some very important meeting with people from Apple, so who knows.
[Tanja] Well, I'm hoping that they thought also about accessibility.
iCane is a smart cane that we wanted to present you also in this podcast. Pawel, you have more information.
[Pawel] Yeah, it's a cooperation between Lions Club departments in different countries. I think Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, Hungary. And the result is a cane which is capable of connecting to your smartphone via Bluetooth. And providing this way navigation with a kind of tactile indication as to the direction where you have to go. And the cane also has an obstacle avoidance system. So it can alert you when you're approaching an obstacle. It also supports a comfortable wheel tip. So you can roll along with the cane and then you can also change the tips if you want to. And the whole thing costs 1650€.
You can find some more info of course on i-cane.nl. And that's for now everything we know. I think the app is only available for iOS at the time. There is a translation to several languages for the user interface. And I hope we will be able to find out more at some point. For example, which data is used for the mapping, for navigation. Is it Google? Is it TomTom? Is it Open Street Map? There'll be definitely interesting. Also the tactile direction indication. How is it performed? Is it some kind of pin that is coming up on the handle or is it to some vibration pattern.
[Bart] It is something you should feel under your index finger? When you use your cane, you put your index finger alongside the cane and there would be a - what they call - patented tactile arrow. I don't know how it exactly feels like. It's not a new product. Of course this needs a lot of research and development. It started several years ago with different improvements. I haven't seen the latest version. I have seen some prototypes. It was at that time quite heavy as a cane, which is for most people an important characteristic of a cane, it shouldn't be too heavy. So hopefully they improved that part.
[Mario] But the price point is enormous. For that kind of device, there are other products which have similar features. And they also use this ultrasound technology for the obstacle detection. I mean, personally, I'm talking about the WeWalk cane. I don't know if it's officially out or is it still in pre-order. But the price point for the WeWALK is, even with shipping and everything, it's like, 600$ or so. There is a huge price difference. And I'm not saying that, you know, I would like to see why certain products have that price, why they cost that much. Even if they show me that the product is worth that much money, man, would I take this kind of cane for an everyday walk? I don't know.
[Pawel] Imagine it being run over by a car next day after you bought it.
[Mario] Which let's be honest, is happening to the blind people in the street.
[Pawel] It's almost like buying a Ferrari and then you crash it the next day. Something like that.
[Mario] Yeah, canes, man, canes! Speaking of canes, I really like my Comde Derenda canes from Germany. I don't take anything else, forget it.
[Tanja] I confirm. I also bought it last year on the SightCity and initially I was not really sure whether my Svarovsky is better or not because Svarovsky canes are a little bit lighter, which for me is important, but I have to say that the Comde Derenda is much more rigid and stable because of that. And I'm really happy. So now I'm making an advertisement for them, but I'm a really happy user.
[Mario] Yes, Pawel, have you seen them on the SightCity as well?
[Pawel] Yeah, I think you also showed me at some point. They look quite stable. I think the aluminum there is used also for aircraft production. And this ensures definitely that it's going to be a durable product.
[Mario] I can tell you a personal story which I had with my cane and no other cane would survive that. I had a situation where I was at one place and I left the cane under the chair. So by accident, I kind of put the chair on the cane and then I sat on the cane one part of it got bent. But it didn't break. It was just kind of bent. And the guy who is doing the repairs at my work for the canes was able to fix it in less than a minute. And the cane is still working absolutely fine. And you could see on the cane that there was a small bend because he had to put it straight back. But nothing is broken. Everything works fine. And I had multiple situations with the other canes where they would break, especially with the graphite canes. The thing with the graphite canes is that, when they break, they go into a million pieces. Really. And though the are being light and such. And the Svarovsky canes, man, no.
[Pawel] So I think it's more advisable as far as the smart technology is concerned, that they actually are, if possible, some kind of attachable module.
[Mario] Yeah, there are such modules which are attachable and you can basically attach them to any of your canes that you're using. And that's a safer way to go.
[Tanja] I agree. The next topic is BeMyEyes. They are hosting a webinar in collaboration with Microsoft and Google on how top companies are benefiting from accessibility. So this is an announcement. We will also add to the link for the webinar in the show notes. I think it will be an interesting one. Also to learn what advantages they are ready to share with us, what advantages accessibility brought for their experience in their businesses. I wanted also to mention one more feature: now you can add Siri Shortcuts to the BeMyEyes application. So you can make a call by using a Siri shortcut. Which makes it much more handy, especially if you're using BeMyEyes often.
[Pawel] Yeah, I think that the innovation here is also that you can customise them, so you can choose what to say and you can choose who to call, because you can either call the volunteer or you can call one of the specialised help departments, one of the companies in the programme. So you can actually say something like "ask Microsoft for help" or whatever, and then it will open BeMyEyes and call the Microsoft specialist line. And especially I really hope that more companies and more local companies from many countries will step on board to offer this opportunity, because then it will be like your handy tool to get help with anything specific that you need from people who know the most about it. So that would be definitely useful.
[Bart] Yes, a system for video calling can be very useful. I had to install a new TV decoder and I called the telecom company, and I had to ask them specific questions about which buttons should I press on the remote control because it has still 50 buttons. You only use one or two but this thing still has 50 buttons. And the person said, I don't know. I can only tell you that you have to click on the green button. And I asked "but don't you have one on your desk because people calling you all the time or don't you have at least a picture in front of you that you can look up?" "No, I don't have", he said, "can I video call you?" "No you can not." So maybe another aspect of this Corona thing where people couldn't come physically. This video calling is probably also something that should take up more.
[Mario] Absolutely.
[Pawel] I'm surprised because the company is based in Denmark and there seem to be, for the time being, quite few European available connections there in the specialised help. So we need to advocate for that, I guess.
[Tanja] Ok. And the last topic is for those who like to do sport: stay in and do workouts. Personally, I have to say that I was going to a fitness centre but I had to stop because of this epidemic. And now they reopen, but with special measures. So you have to do plenty of disinfecting your shoes and machines and do plenty of things which are making the whole experience much more difficult. So I decided to stop. But then there are also some audio described materials online to do workouts at home. They are not new. Probably, you know some of them. BlindAlive has different workouts from cardio to pilates to yoga meditations, whatever you prefer. I also found something newer from British Blind Sports. They published some videos a few months ago during this Corona crisis on how to do workouts at home and it's also interesting to discover what tracking apps are accessible for us. I guess they're mostly on smartwatches, which I don't have. But Mario you have your Fossil Gen watch.
[Mario] I have a Fossil Gen 5. And I have to say that it's coming equipped with a few apps for workout. The main one being Google Fit. And I have to say that the Google fit on the watch had a few updates over time and it got much more accessible than it used to be. So I got my watch like, what is it now? 6 or 7 months ago.
[Tanja] Our long term listeners will rememberalso wehn you did the demo.
[Mario] When I got the watch, I was testing everything that's on the watch and the Google Fit was one of the apps. So I was able to set up my profile, and basically that was all I could do because it wasn't that much speaking. But in the future updates, I don't know when it happened because I didn't use it, but I just started to use it like 2 weeks ago. I realised that it became much, much more accessible. And basically all the tasks now are possible to do and everything speaks. So you are able to connect it with your Google Fit on your smartphone. And then on your watch, you can do all the work to select which kind of workouts do you want. So if you're going for a walk, you can measure how much you walked, how much steps did you make, how much calories did you spend? The same applies for any kind of workout. You can select which kind of workouts you're doing. So if you're doing running, walking or even swimming, and ...
[Tanja] Can it do indoor?
[Mario] It can do indoor, so for example, if you have the elliptical trainer, you can do also that. And also you can customise it to have the spoken announcements, like how much kilometres or miles didyou cross. And it can speak to a certain time interval, so, for example, if you depend on certain minutes for workouts which are really important, that can be also very handy tool. You can customise it if you do want to have it turn on and off. For example, I don't know when I do the elliptical workouts I have announcements every five minutes or I can set it up for every 10 minutes. So I know that I need to change the programme, etc. and when you're done, you just click on Finish and it gives you the summary. How did you go for workout? And everything speaks, everything's accessible. And then it seems it syncs with your phone. You can see it also on your phone. And if you want, you can share it on your social network if you're doing that or if you just want to do any kind of statistics and whatever.
[Tanja] It's very handy because usually those information are displayed on the elliptical trainer and they're not accessible to us. So these accessible checkers are incredibly helpful.
[Mario] Yeah. Especially for the heart rate. There is a cardio app on the watch which is perfectly accessible. And I even made the shortcut for the cardio on my watch. So I just press shortcut and it comes straight into cardio and I have my heart rate measured if I need it. And it is really accurate, I have to say. And the good thing about the Google Fit is that it is extendable with a bunch of other apps. You can install whatever health apps that you have. So you can use it with that. And for example, just one of the things that you can do with your smart watch is that you can also measure your sleep tracking. So that's one of the things which you can do or if you want to use any other apps for the health which have more extended compatibility, you can do that. I'm sure that there are a bunch of apps for the Apple Watch as well. Unfortunately none of us has the Apple Watch so we can't say anything about it. As I said, I was really happy to see that things are working nicely on my Fossil.
[Tanja] It's great to hear. From my experience, what I noticed is that I save a lot of time when I am doing the workouts at home because before I had to go at the fitness centre and then you need some time to start and then come back. So now I'm really saving a lot of time, which is an advantage. And maybe in the future I will rethink to do workouts at home and not go back to the fitness centre. But any other experiences?
[Pawel] Yeah. So as I said at the beginning, we recently got our mother the Mi Band 4 from Xiaomi. And if measuring your parameters while working out is the only thing you need and maybe a couple of extras, that is a perfect device because it's not expensive. It's around 40€. The biggest problem with accessibility is that you probably need some sighted help to get it paired with your phone, but then you don't need to really interact with it much. You can, if you're sighted, you get some advantage with that because you can see your notifications there. You can, of course, see your workout statistics. You can find your phone if you lost it and it's still in the Bluetooth range, and some weather and some other information. But these are things you can live without if you just want to have something tracking your heart rate or sleep or for counting your steps. Everything else is managed in the mi Fit app fromXiaomi. And this could be accessible better because there are some unlabelled buttons, there are some data which is displayed and you don't really know that clearly what it's about unless you guess it or ask somebody or read a bit deeper because the headers for the data are not attached to the data themselves. So then yeah, it requires a bit of practice, but it's more or less accessible. You can read everything you need. And I know some blind users who, especially in conjunction with their iOS devices, use to Mi Band and they're really happy with it. You can programme different kinds of workouts from walks to runs to bicycle rides. You can have your sleep monitored, your heart rate, and you can even add your friends to compare the results with them and to see how they're doing. I would say it's a really nice device. It's quite small. It wraps neatly around your hand. It's not too big. You can adjust the strap to your needs and fit it in just nice. And there is the new Mi Band 5 coming out, which we don't know yet how it will be in the international version, because usually the Chinese version has more features. But if it will be fully featured in the international, then it will have NFC with it. So we'll be able to pay with it and there should be Alexa integration or some other voice assistant so you can even control your smart home or perform other actions or start your workouts with voice commands. And there'll be a menstruation cycle tracker as well. And a couple of other features, so these are also quite nice products. I also used the Endomondo app at some point, which was also quite accessible. I used my phone to track my bicycle rides together with mapping and with having the route drawn on a map so somebody else could see it later. And tell me when I went with somebody else and that was basically working fine as well. Not perfectly. But you would get through and you could definitely store your experiences there. My only gripe about this kind of solutions is that there seems to be not so much synchronisation between them. So if you, for example, used to use Endomondo and all your activities in Endomondo and then you got yourself the Mi Band and you wanted to carry on with your achievements and everything else and your statistics in the mi Band, so the comparison would be carried on. That's difficult to do or not possible at all. So you start from scratch basically with your new product. That's the only thing that really annoys me about this. But other than that, these apps are quite accessible. I would say, usable at least.
[Tanja] Okay, great. Hoping that at least this has been informative or has given some inspiration to someone to start with workouts because this is healthy.
And this was the last topic for this episode. You can contact us via Twitter or email. And stay safe and talk to you in the next episode.
Bye bye.
Thank you.
Welcome back to the May edition of the EBU Access Cast, full of interesting news from the Assistive Technology and Digital Accessibility industries.
We kicked off this one by holding a small exchange of Android apps between Mario and Paweł including email clients and useful Wear OS apps.
WE then discussed all that is new and accessible in the latest release of Chrome marked with the version number 81.
Apart from browsers, both of the popular Windows screen readers, NVDA and JAWS, have had their latest versions released recently as well.
An episode recorded in May would not be complete without mentioning the Global Accessibility Awareness Day, celebrated on the 21st of this month. As always it is full of various events and activities most of which will be held online this year and so many more of you will be able to attend. Discussing accessibility gave us a chance to wonder how accessible COVID-19 contact tracing apps in different countries of Europe might be and whether this is a reliable solution in its current form.
In the last episode, we pointed to the fact that mask usage instructions in an accessible form have proven to be impossible to find. A month has passed and, surely enough, the German organisation of the blind and partially sighted DBSV have published their own page on using masks.
As we often remind you, books are a great part of accessibility and thanks to an interesting Daisy Consortium webinar, we had a chance to learn about some solutions allowing those with reading disabilities to access their favourite books using smart speakers.
One service not mentioned in the webinar is Pratsam, a Finnish solution that makes it easy for a library to setup their digital access portfolio ready with cloud, web and mobile apps as well as smart speaker skills.
Another company that has not fallen behind in delivering outstanding accessibility experience is Apple. From the patents they have applied for, we can deduce that a support for enhanced photo taking accessibility features are forthcoming and so is the ability to make binaural (3D) recordings with the iPhone. The celebration of this month's accessibility awareness activities has also been marked by their making available of a brand new accessibility website. VoiceOver improvements can be also spotted in the latest release of Logic Pro X, the music-making and sound editing software.
We may learn soon what else is new in regards to accessibility at both Apple and Google as both companies intend to hold their events on the 22th and 3rd of June respectively.
Speaking of large companies and communities, a set of Wordpress-related accessibility resources has been published by the Deque University.
Finally, we shared a way in which all of us could contribute into building amazing technology that will profit us in the future. Mozilla Common Voice is an initiative where everyone can contribute voice data for a wide variety of languages to make it possible for robust speech technologies to be built. Our listeners in Slovenia will be also pleased to know that Tina has joined the Vocalizer TTS family extending the offer of available language options.
As always, we look forward to you sharing your comments and feedback with us. Feel free to reach out via our email and Twitter to let us know what's on your minds. Until the next edition!
Welcome to this month's edition of the EBU Access Cast. As always, we are bringing you some pretty exciting news in the area of assistive technology.
The current situation caused by the spread of the novel Coronavirus has impacted our lives in multiple ways, especially so in the case of people with visual impairments. It is therefore difficult to escape this subject completely. The news, however, will definitely be useful in coping with the new reality of self-isolation, social distancing and working remotely.
To cover the most frequently asked questions, the EBU has compiled a list of resources where the advice from different national partners regarding mobility, everyday life, safety and help, is provided.
We also mentioned some of those general tips and tricks that will let you stay safe as well as discussed campaigns of the disability umbrella organizations started to ensure that whatever strategy is applied to combat the virus in the different European countries, their disabled citizens will be a part of it.
Next up, we mentioned accessible resources allowing us to stay informed about the situation, including an accessible statistics tracker and an information website by Google.
It is also important to be sure that help is available, should you need it. IHelpYou.app is one example of a service that makes it easy to find local volunteers in your area. The website is of course 100% accessible.
Just like you, we are hoping to go back to normality as soon as possible, although the world Post-Corona will not be the same as it was. Perhaps we will be able to move freely again but how do we make sure that we are safe then? An initiative by Google and Apple may provide a solution to detect the virus where it appears before it spreads too far.
Meanwhile, as a significant part of work has moved online, video conferencing has become the everyday reality of communication and zoom is one of the most used tools to facilitate that. Fortunately, it provides a really accessible and pleasant to use experience which becomes even clearer after listening to Jonathan Mosen's "Meet Me In The Cloud" audiobook, now available for free.
The PEAT have also compiled a list of useful resources that may come in handy when arranging different aspects of working away from your office desk.
The world might have slowed down a little but it does not mean that the assistive technology industry has gone completely silent. Last month, we told you about Google working on a new Talkback version with a Braille keyboard. You've probably heard it from the news all over the Internet by now but that version is already here and, what's even better, that's not everything Android Accessibility wants to surprise us with. As spotted in the development documentation of Android 11, we may be seeing the support for multi-finger gestures rolling out this fall..
IT is meanwhile speculated that Apple may be working on support for third-party text-to-speech voices and that the feature may be seeing the light as soon as iOS 14. Should this be true, and adding to that the appearance of the brand new, long awaited iPhone SE 2020, we may be up for a real mobile accessibility showdown by the end of this year.
The first beta of NVDA 2020.1 is already out and, although not as rich in features as the previous release, welcomes some useful improvements and bugfixes.
Quite often these days, a well-designed CMS tool is capable of performing a lot of the work required to make a website fully accessible. Drupal is proving that with the accessibility tools and enhancements introduced in the 8th version of the engine and next ones are already scheduled for the upcoming release.
For our listeners who are keen on writing, Onkyo and the World Blind Union are inviting you to take part in this year's edition of the Onkyo World Braille Essay Contest. Listen on to find out what it is about and why it is worth taking part in it.
We came back to the subject of Envision Glasses. since our last announcement, the pre-sale has begun and the Envision team started organizing a series of webinars to demonstrate the product and answer all of the burning questions about the device.
Speaking of glasses, one question that comes up a lot when talking about accessibility for the blind is, to what extent can Virtual Reality experiences be enjoyable by those who can't see at all? Microsoft is trying to tackle that one with their prototype of a white cane designed to allow blind users to explore the VR independently. This piece of news allowed us to talk in more general terms about the challenges and chances stemming from VR and 360 degree videos for blind users. Many meaningful insights on this subject can be found in Equal Entry's webinar which you can access upon registration.
That is all for this month but watch this space for the next episode coming by the end of May where we'll be sure to deliver even more exciting news. Meanwhile, feel free to reach out with your thoughts and suggestions through our Email and Twitter.
Wellcome to the 20th episode of Ebu Access Cast. We have come to the 20th episode so far, and we would like to thank you for listening to us. We are preparing some nice goodies for you for the future episodes, but new surprise will be coming to you soon. In the mean time, let's check what's going on in this dark times which hovers around the world.
As the Corona pandemics is taking over the Europe and rest of the world, lots of jobs are transfered to teleworking. We made a research to see how it affects the tech giants and assistive tech industry in general and how the whole situation affects the state of accessibility in different environments.
Tech giants will keep paying hourly staff even if they are asked to stay home due to coronavirus
Mr Shadi Abou-Zahra tweeted that schools and universities should not forget to include accessibility in their online courses. Alejandro Moledo also reminds us that all tv providers which broadcast the emergency information must be accessible to all - so with subtitles, sign language, spoken subtitles and audio description.
Pawel from our team discovered Discord, free voice and chat client which has a bunch of nice features, great audio sound and the possibility of having up to 50 users connected for free on the server during the Corona pandemics instead of 10 users. It is available for all major platforms and it offeres a nice accessibility. As the client is equipped with very good audio and video features, some people started to use it for online learning courses.
Due to the prevention of the Corona pandemics many people are transfered to work from their offices to their homes. Since lots of population is not in the offices any more, we still have to maintain our comunication, and it is important that the comunication between each other is safe and encripted. Therefore, we are introducing to you the Signal private messenger, available and accessible for iOS and Android users. Signal offers very nice audio quality of voice calls and audio messages, and what's the most important it offers true end to end encription. For the last few weeks it is recommended messaging client for comunication between European institutions as well.
To know more about the Signal check out its Wikipedia page.
Beginning of March brought up some unexpected news for many users of Android Accessibility Suite, where a thousands of public beta testers from all over the world over night were no longer available to get the newest beta versions. Google never came up with the official explanation what happened and why they pulled out so many beta testers at once. Mario and Pawel speculated that this could be because the newest beta version was not supposed to be public version, and it was supposed to be distributed only to the internal testing team. However, even if such huge mistake could be the truth, we would still like to receive the official announcement from Google accessibility team, so as soon as we get any information about it, we will forward it to you. Until that time, we really find this kind of behaviour from such a huge tech giant absolutely untolerable and disgraceful towards the whole visualy impaired Android community.
Voice Dream Scanner appeared also for Android in the last few weeks, so Pawel who tested the application explained what's different between Android and iOS version, as well as how the application works on Android platform.
YouTube gains channel filter in subscriptions, better playback control
Accessibility
Codejumper is officialy on sale for 999 Dollars.
Twitter Accessibility channel Tweeted a message about alt texts and their correct implementation for Android and iOS users.
If you are the user of new Microsoft Edge, you will find that DevTools accessibility in Microsoft Edge is Improving from each new release.
This is all we got for you for this month. We wish to all of you to stay healthy, and that you watch over each other untill the next month. As always, we are available for all comunication over our email and Twitter channel.
Welcome to the 19th episode of the EBU Access Cast. This is the second episode that you can listen our podcast in chapters in your favourite podcast player. Find out with us which podcast players support EBU Access Cast chapters.
Mario shared with us his experience about Focus 40 Blue 5th Gen refreshable braille display from Freedom Scientific. The device is light, small, sturdy and it can have 5 simultaneous bluetooth connections and one USB Type-C. It works both as braille display and notetaker and it is very responsive when used with a screen reader. Our regular listeners know from previous episodes that Mario is a musician and that he plays string instruments so he likes that the firmness of the dots can be adjusted on Focus 40.
NVDA 2019.3 is Out and it brings many new features, changes and bug fixes. Screen curtain and focus highlight are the default feature of NVDA now and you can predefine the shortcut in the input gestures menu. At the end of the episode you can hear our demo of the new features in NVDA. Note, however, that add-ons that were not updated to be compatible with the new NVDA will not work anymore and you can check the status on the NVDA add-ons repository. Mario shared with us a tip about the NVDA add-on updater that can automate the process and download updated NVDA add-ons for you.
The New, stable Chromium-based Microsoft Edge is Available And compatible with NVDA 2019.3 and JAWS 2020 February update. It starts with number 79 and it comes with the Windows update or you can download it as standalone installer. The new Edge is much more responsive, uses less resources, provides more shortcuts and the interface is very intuitive. You can check the information related to accessibility of the new Edge and the list of Edge shortcuts on the Microsoft page.
The Microsoft Accessibility Webinars demonstrate How To Use Various Microsoft applications With Assistive Technology. You can find 12 episodes from this sirie in the archive and we hope that Microsoft will do more similar webinars in the future for customers with disabilities.
Raspberry Pi Becomes More Accessible With The Addition of Orca screen reader.
APH announces new products:
Chameleon 20 braille device which main purpose is to help blind students in tclassrooms, Mantis Q40 refreshable braille display combined with the querty keyboard, handheld video magnifier with OCR functionality and 2 different desktop braille embossers PixBlaster and PageBlaster that can print braile text and tactile graphics.
We shared with you the results of a study done in UK Regarding The Accessibility Of The Online Shopping Experience that shows that persons with disabilities find difficulties in buying online groceries, train tickets, clothing, ordering food delivery, booking rooms in hotels or finding information and purchasing tickets for leasure or sport activities.
Envision AI is coming to Google glasses
with the known Envision AI features: OCR with TTS, scanning products, recognising images and the plan is to add new features like video calls. The interface will be accessible with a special screen reader done for this particular glasses. We hope that we will be able to test the product at special events dedicated to asssistive technologies for visually impaired persons in Europe.
Stay tuned with us! Send us comments or suggestions via Twitter or e-mail and we will get back to you as soon as possible.
Welcome to the 18th EBU Access Cast!
Since this is the first podcast for 2020, we wish you all the best in 2020 from the whole team, and we hope that you will get some nice new gadgets which will expand and improve your daily Living.
We also made some improvements in our podcast since 2020, and that means from now on our podcast supports chapters Section, which means that if you want to listen something that specifically interests you, you can directly skip to your favorite chapter in your favorite podcast Player. The chapters do not work directly if you are listening the podcast from the web Player, therefore this is another reason why it is better to subscribe to our podcast directly from the podcast players such as Apple podcasts on iPhone or Podcast adict on Android platform.
Now let’s jump into the news Section to see what we have prepared for you:
This year CES 2020 was occupied by many more assistive technology vendors than on the previous CES events, which is absolutely a positive sign. Therefore we selected a few of the most interesting products which were shown for general public:
First Braille tablet shown at CES 2020
While we don’t have too much technical information about the Tactile Pro, it is great to see that such devices are slowly getting into the mainstream and that braille as the most important form of written form for blind people is being updated into new device.
Hap2Phone Allows Users to Feel Objects in Photos on Their Touchscreens
Hap2U, a haptics developer specialized in integrating sensory intelligence into tactile surfaces, will unveil Hap2Phone, the world’s first haptic smartphone display, at CES 2020. While this device isn’t made for the end consumers, the concept of such a device might be very interesting for System integrators and OEM manufacturers.
OrCam Announces New AI Hearing Device and Handheld AI Reader at CES 2020
OrCam is a known vendor from Israel. This time they decided to expand their product line towards the users with Hearing and reading problems with 2 new products. We don’t know what the price of the products will be yet, however this does not mean that you should not visit their Stand on the upcoming assistive tech events such as the Sight City 2020 where you can try their products directly.
W3C Launches an Introduction to Web Accessibility Free Online Course in Cooperation with UNESCO IITE
On the International Day of Persons with Disabilities, the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) and UNESCO Institute for Information Technologies in Education (UNESCO IITE) announced the launch of the online course built on the W3C’s Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) open curricula with international expert trainers from W3C Member organizations.
[The MOOC begins on January 20, 2020.]
How to make museums more accessible for disabled people? Ask them
The Arches project took place in 6 different museums across Europe for the last 3 years and they came up with really interesting results which Pawel represented to us in the podcast.
This time we prepared really cool news for visually impaired musicians:
Building Raspberry Pi Smart Guitar for Blind, Deaf and Mute Musicians
This really cool Instrument combines various tech solutions built into one device, allowing the users with seeing, Hearing or speech problems to use it as they wish. The users can choose to receive the information via built in small Display, read the information via built in braille Display or choose the built in buttons for going through the menus in the guitar, in case the users have speech problems which they can read thru the built in Display or hear it thru the built in Speaker.
Avid and Berklee College of Music Team Up to Deliver Innovative Accessibility Features for Visually Impaired Music Creators
Musicians who are visually impaired finally can get really excited, because Sibelius will become much more accessible for Jaws, NVDA and Voice over users in the near future. That means that the Level of integration will be much improved for students and musicians who need to utilize Sibelius for composing on the daily bases. For many years visually impaired community was struggling with accessibility of Sibelius which is in todays world one of the main tools used for composing and arranging, and it looks like that this will finally change.
VIEWS International published the results of the VIPTech project, and Bart gave us more info about it.
EUROPEAN DISABILITY FORUM AND ORACLE E-ACCESSIBILITY SCHOLARSHIP 2019-2020
If you are Student who is studding IT related subjects and if you are visually impaired you may want to apply to the following scolaireship till March 6th.
Index Donation Program 2020
If your organisation is envolved with Braille literacy but you think that you are in need for a new braille printer you can apply to the following donation program and see if you wil be one of the winners.
Applications are now open for the 2020 Holman Prize
If you think that you are the next inventor who will change the future in our community, apply to the Holman Prize and get 25000 dollars. 2019 Holman Prize winner Yuma Decaux software engeneer, specialist in 3d and mixed media
creating an app to enable blind citizen scientists to participate in the search for exoplanets by listening to space.
Google Assistant Now Has Interpreter Mode on Android and iOS Devices
We checked live in the podcast if the feature Works for the smartphones, and the result was very positive. Than we also checked if the same feature is available on the Android smartwatches, but weren’t sucsessful in getting it to work. That means that the smartwatch users will have to wäit a bit longer untill the interpretor arrives.
However we were able to talk about another cool feature which allows all the users of Google Assistant to check their local air quality. IN order to activate it, just say “Talk to Air Quality Index”. After that the assistant will ask you for your location permmition, and after a few seconds you will get the results from the closest air quality measuring station.
The last information for today Comes from Pawel who presented to us Z5NBY RetroArch 1.8.2 – Accessibility features for blind people. If you are a blind Gamer who likes the old style games like a final Fantasy this will be a great news for you, since you are able to play the game which you could not do it before.
As always, we are here for you on our Twitter and e-mail so give us a Feedback about the last Episode, and we are looking forward to be back with you in February.
We are back with the latest episode of the EBU Access Cast and as it happens the last one for the year 2019 and the teens of this century. As Christmas is drawing closer, we began this episode with some tech gadget Christmas gifts discussion. Mario bought a Fossil 5 Gen Wear OS smartwatch and shared his experience of setting it up for the first time. His brief demo of this device's possibilities can be found in the demo Time section of this show.
We kicked off the news section by mentioning the winner of this year's Accessible City Award of the European Commission the Polish capital Warsaw. This was an opportunity for Paweł to tell a little bit about various initiatives, projects and good practices applied in the city to make it friendly for its visually impaired inhabitants. Among the projects discussed there was the Invisible Exhibition which explains life with blindness to sighted visitors, the social campaign "Path of Accessibility: Share Your Space" which raises awareness of issues connecting to navigating the public space of Warsaw by persons with visual impairments and the in-door and outdoor beacon-based orientation system Totupoint.
You can learn more about the Accessible City Award by watching a described Video created by the European Commission in cooperation with the EBU represented by Tanja.
WE returned to Seeing AI with its important update for many users across Europe as support for new languages is introduced.
We then mentioned some good news for all of our musician listeners as the Musescore music notation software adds new accessibility features and SM music Reader, the first Android and in general mobile app for accessible reviewing and drawing of music notes appears on the market.
Coming back to Poland for a while, Paweł shared an example of a good accessibility practice introduced by one of the local operators of self-service package pick-up stations.
This was not the only accessibility innovation in terms of self-service devices that we discussed as we also delved into what manufacturers of touchscreen-based payment terminals do to allow operation by blind customers. Valina and Pax A920 will be one of the first solutions to tackle this challenge.
New year is the time of resolutions and decisions to do something different. WE bring you some inspiration with BeMyEyes's hand-picked list of accessible museum and art experiences, most of them located in Europe.
If you prefer consuming different forms of art from the comfort of your house, we also took a look at See, one of Apple's exclusive TV shows available for their brand-new streaming platform Apple TV Plus. The show takes place in a world inhabited by a population where almost everyone is blind. We invite you to hear and read how it is like directing an action-packed show with blind actors in cast and consulted in close cooperation with blindness organizations.
Before concluding the show we also talked about one of EBU's current campaigns focused on the Marrakesh Treaty, European Accessibility Act and the accessibility in the book publishing industry. We will hear more on the matter from Antoine Fobe from the EBU who will be interviewed by Tanja.
Remember that you can send us your comments and suggestions through our email and Twitter. WE will be happy to hear them.
Last but not least, we at the EBU Access Cast would like to wish all of our listeners a merry Christmas and all the best for the year 2020. May all of your plans and goals come to fruition and new ones come to mind.
The European Blind Union held its 11th general assembly in Rome on October 27-30. Bart was invited to record a special edition of the podcast. He spoke with the outgoing and incoming president of EBU, Wolfgang Angermann, and Rodolfo Cattani, as well as with its executive director Mokrane Boussaïd who is about to retire. He also interviewed the exhibitors in the tech fair. Companies that we interviewed at Sightcity were not revisited.
It Cares developed an app for the purpose of this event. They used their platform Pharoart that allows clients to quickly build an accessible native Android and iPhone application.
JKJ sells tactile pavings with integrated RFID tags. An electronic stick communicates the information in the tag to the LVE System app on your smart phone.
Letismart is another way to make the white cane smart. A smart city with beacons can help you navigate and interact with smart devices around you.
In Bologna, Ancona and Catania you can visit a tactile museum: Museo Anteros and Museo Tolomeo, and Museo Omero
and Polo tattile Multimediale
The latter also houses a braille transcription center.
Tactile books can also be bought from La Federazione Nazionale delle Istituzioni pro Ciechi
Discover astronomy and learn everything about the earth, moon, sun and other planets with the hand made educational tools of the Associazione Pontina di Astronomia
Dolphin Computer Access produces Supernova (screenreader and magnification software for Windows), Guide Connect (providing access to Windows application through a standardised interface) and Easyreader (a free smartphone app to read Daisy online content from libraries all over the world).
En-Vision America demonstrates the ScripTalk station and ScripTalk app to listen to medical prescriptions, given that your pharmacist encoded the information in a label, glued on the medicine package.
Nattiq Technologies from Dubai builds customised braille products. A braille display and a Windows computer in one box. You provide the specifications and they build it for you.
Harpo demonstrates the new Mountbatten Brailler named Tutor and PIAF for tactile images.
Humanware produces portable magnifiers, Daisy players (with GPS) and braille displays that also can function as a note taker running on Android.
Index Braille sells four types of braille embossers. Their CEO explaines the differences and what software you can use to prepare the files before embossing.
EasyTv is a project that will increase the availability of audio description and captioning by trying to automate the production:
The assembly was held with the generous support of Google.
If you have any Feedback about this Episode you can contact us on our e-mail or send us
a tweet on our Twitter account. The next Standard Episode of the EBU Access Cast will be back with you in December.
Welcome to the 15th episode of the EBU Access Cast. This month we commented the iOS 13 accessibility improvements and new bugs that came with the new iOS. We are disappointed that the official release brought so many accessibility issues and we hope that Apple will fix them soon.
Microsoft announced Surface Neo and Surface Duo at the Microsoft Surface event. What came as a surprise is that the smaller foldable Surface Duo runs Android, and, the larger device Surface Neo will run a variant of the company's operating system Windows X. In that occasion Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella announced that Windows will not be the most important layer - the focus will now be on applications and services. Time will tell how this will reflect the further development of the Windows operating system.
The Microsoft's Seeing AI application has gotten some significant updates over the last months and we are happy that we are now able to choose the OCR language on the short text channel or to create a Siri voice shortcut to open the application on a specific channel. More about the recent updates can be read in the changelog on the Appstore page.
Similarly, Seeing Assistant Home by Transition Technologies S.A. has gotten some notable updates, namely it now introduces an automatic barcode reading mode where for previously assigned codes, the label is read automatically without displaying the HTML window (for iOS and Android) and a text recognition mode was added (iOS exclusive so far). The significant thing with the text recognition is that it boasts three modes depending on how small or big the area containing the text is so it is well-suited for reading text out of tiny LCD screens or CD covers, for example.
The results for the WebAim screen Reader User Survey #8 are published. We are aware that the survay does not represent the choice of all users and that the survey is available only in English and it excludes non-English speaking users. However the survey shows the trends in the usage of screen readers and the results are often used as a reference point by the industry.
JAWS public beta 2020 is available and the full release will be launched at the end of October.
Despite high quality voices many of us prefer to listen Eloquence and have used the voice on the Android operating system. Unfortunately the Eloquence voice has been abandoned and it will not be available anymore on the Google appstore. Code Factory informed the users by e-mail and we are transmitting the entire message here.
Start of quote
Dear Code Factory friends,
We would like to announce the end of life of one of our products: Eloquence for Android.
As you may know, Google now requires that applications using native code (such as ours) provide a 64-bit version of its binaries. Eloquence has a very old code base, and the effort required to port it to 64 bits has been evaluated and unfortunately, the app sales do not justify this investment.
This does not affect our other Android products, such as Vocalizer for Android, for which we already provide a 64 bit version. Also, this does not affect Voices for NVDA (which includes Eloquence) on Windows.
We also want to make it clear that those users who have purchased the application will be able to continue using it, as per Google Play's policies. Also, we will continue to provide support for this application through our Help Desk. However, as of today, no new updates to Eloquence for Android can be published.
Here you can find some more details on Google's policies:
64-bit Requirement:
https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2019/01/get-your-apps-ready-for-64-bit.html
Download purchased apps (even if they are no longer published):
https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/113410?co=GENIE.Platform%3DAndroid
It's been a great 6 years of development for this application. It's a shame that Eloquence for Android has not reached the amount of interest and sales that we hoped for.
Best wishes,
-- Xavi Martínez
Software developer
End of quote
The European Web Accessibility Directive applies and websites of the public sector bodies need to meet the accessibility standards. If this is not the case in your country, fill out the EDF survey and help them to identify the issues.
A team of IT specialists in Vienna made available the source code and patterns for 3D printing a magnet-based braille keyboard that can be attached at the back of any smartphone.
Voice guidance in Google Maps, built for people with impaired vision became available for now for users in USA and Japan
APH announced a big update for users of their NearBy Explorer application which will allow the users to use their GPS navigational app with Open Street Maps instead of Navtech Maps which they previously used
If you want to play UNO, you can now do it with the new Braille UNO cards.
As useful gadget of the month, we recommend you the cell phone lanyard holder on which you can attach your phone and use it hands free. The case can be purchased in any shop that sells camera and phone accessories.
At the end of the episode you can hear our demo for the Advanced Braille Keyboard for Android.
If you have any Feedback for us, send us your comments or suggestions via our Twitter page or e-mail and we will get back to you as soon as possible.
Welcome to the 14th EBU AccessCast! (September 2019)
After our summer holidays Mario, Tanja, Bart and Pawel are back with you and as always, we have quite a lot to say for this month.
Bart got himself a new pair of Bose frames which represent the alternative to the well-known aftershockz boan conduction headset, and he shared his Short Review on them.
Mario also bought a new tuner for string instruments, called Roadie Bass. The tuner is very accessible for partially sighted community as well as blind musicians, because the end user is able to make all the presets thru an app on the phone, and then sync all the settings with the tuner via bluetooth.
After the settings are synced, all you have to do is turn on the tuner, choose your setting for the particular Instrument, and the robotic part will automatically tune each of the strings on the Instrument in very Short time.
In the news Section we prepared the following for you:
Apple just released a bunch of their new products including new iPhones 11, Applewatch 5, new Ipads and news for gamers as well as new subscriptions for Apple arcade. Applevis made nice recap of the eventwhich you can find on the following page.
The LEGO Group to pilot LEGO® Audio & Braille instructions
To hear more about Matthew Shifrin, main person behind the Lego braille instructions project, watch the following presentation from Ted Talks.
Audio described content plays a big role in the life of blind or partially sighted people. Therefore this time we found 2 different very similar topics launched in different parts of the world which are working thru todays most used Video platform in the world. Sure enough, we are talking about Youtube. You Describe platform collects audio described Youtube videos made by volunteers
In the Nederlands scribit.tv provides a very similar Service as youdescribe platform, available for Dutch blind users.
New OCR and object recognition free Android app called Speak! Started to gain a lot of attention from the community, We are bringing you the demo of the app at the end of the podcast so if you are the Android user this is definitely a nice app to have on your smartphone since it has many functionalities of the Seeing AI which is for now available only for iOS users.
EBU published a report on 'Most frequent problems experienced by blind and partially sighted persons when travelling by planes which we are sharing with you and we hope that you will share it further.
If you are planning to travel and in the same time you have some kind of disability, than check out the Accessible travelling guide from Lonely Planet.
Last but not least, check out the page about new plans for new European disability strategy which is starting from 2020, and will last for the next 10 years. Therefore you have the time until the October 23rd to write your Opinion what can be improved to make our life better across whole European Union.
At the end Mario prepared for you the demo of the mentioned Speak app which you can listen to. At the end Mario prepared for you the demo of the above-mentioned Speak app which you can listen, and comment. If you have any Feedback for us, send us your suggestions or other questions, via our Twitter page or e-mail and we will get back to you as soon as possible.
Welcome to the 13th episode of the EBU Access Cast, this time hosted by Paweł who is joined by Tanja, Mario and Bart to discuss all that happened in July in assistive technologies.
Paweł got himself a new iPod Touch 7th gen and is yet again ready to explore the accessibility of the Apple ecosystem and iOS apps alongside his usual Android phone. Meanwhile Tanja had the chance to speak in front of a large publicity of web developers conference Voxxed Days which took place in Luxembourg. Her presentation was well-received and even met with some social media attention as many of the attendees tweeted about it.
Check it out for yourself and watch it here.
BeMyEyes has opened up its specialized help network to users all around the world. Google and Careline are the first two companies to be made available globally, however they are reachable only in English and during the US working hours.
Google is back with plenty of news on their side as they release Chrome 75 to the public, boasting their long-awaited, AI-based image description feature. From the preliminary tests it seems to be working quite well, apart from that, users started noticing that it is now possible to turn accessibility services on their Android devices on and off using Google Assistant.
Germany is launching a state-wide app allowing to request help in case of emergency through text messaging beginning 2020. The app will also share the location so that the operators know where to dispatch the necessary help. The app may be an answer to the upcoming European Accessibility Act, giving those with speech impairments access to the emergency helplines.
Read more about it in the original article (in German) here.
Listeners are also encouraged to share examples of how accessibility improves in their countries. We will be glad to include them in our next episodes.
Gatwick Airport has received an award for the most accessible airport. The features highlighted were the availability of assistance material in braille, special buttons allowing to call for assistance and their involvement in training their staff and stakeholders in assisting passengers with disabilities. Bologne was another airport highlighted for their outstanding care about accessibility needs. This mention gave the team the opportunity to share their experiences regarding assistance at different airports in Europe.
Apple has applied for a patent within which a solution should be developed allowing the blind to spatially explore maps and learn about their surroundings in this way. The user should be able to experience the road ahead from A to B by just moving the finger across the screen. Apple plans also to introduce accessibility into the 3D representation of the area.
A new version of NVDA, 2019.2 is approaching with a handful of long-awaited features. For one, braille users should be happy to see the Freedom Scientific displays being automatically detected and certain advanced settings of individual displays can be handled from within the settings interface. Another welcome change is the ability to give the Microsoft voices a rate boost and the ability to assign individual keyboard shortcuts to different settings’ profiles.
From 1st July 2019, newly produced electric and hybrid cars are required to include an AVAS system which will alert passersby about the car’s presence. This change is a result of a long-standing EBU Silent Cars campaign which was already mentioned in the previous episodes of the podcast. Tanja interviewed Jessica Schroeder of the DBSV asking about the implications and limitations of this regulation. We also present samples of how AVAS systems might sound like in a Jaguar and Nissan car.
The show is concluded by the demo of the Voice OCR app done by Tanja. The app has recently received a significant update and is now delivering promising results
. You can read about the recent changes here.
As always, we encourage you to contact us, either on our Twitter or our email and look forward to connecting with you again in the September episode, as August is the holiday season for the team.
Welcome to the 12 episode of the EBU Access Cast. We decided to refresh the way how our podcast is presented, so from now on every month you will hear somebody different from our team who will be the main host for the episode. In the June episode Tanja took the position of the captain and she is joined by Mario, Bart and Pawel who became our newest team member. This time we are bringing you the accessibility news from the Apple conference WWDC 2019. In its opening Apple announced that technology is the most powerfull when everyone can use it and they showed clearly their commitment by presenting plenty of new accessibility functionalities on Apple devices that we can expect from this autumn. Starting from iOS13 and iPadOs the accessibility menu will be moved from the general settings to the top level settings which clearly shows the importance that Apple gives to accessibility. The feature that received most attention is the full voice control that will be available starting from MacOSCatalina and iOS13. The feature is ment for persons with motor disabilities, but this is another functionality that everyone can benefit from. Read more on the Apple VIS blog and listen to the Apple VIS podcast with Sarah Herrlinger, Director of Global Accessibility Policy and Initiatives at Apple and Dean Hudson, Accessibility Evangelist at Apple.
Another functionality that we are looking forward is the automatic recognition of unlabeled buttons in inaccessible apps. Custom gestures, a feature that we know from other screen readers, will be available in VoiceOver and will allow easier access to predefined functions. Liblouis will be supported on all Apple devices and the response time for braille screen typing will be increased for those who type in braille very fast. Low vision users will benefit from hover text functionality that will allow to enlarge the selected area on the screen.
The major news for Apple WatchOS 6 is that applications can run independently from the iPhone and it will have its own Appstore. Applications for listening audiobooks, voice memo, calculator and other interesting applications in the health section will be available from the WatchOS6. Check out the keynote on Youtube
Microsoft released the 1903 spring update with several accessibility improvements in Narrator, for the full list check out the Windows 10 help forum
Talking about accessibility and screen readers on Windows, the Vispero Group just launched the June JAWS update and the list of improvements is available on the Freedom Scientific webpage
Automatic image recognition is becoming much better and accurate as we move forward, therefore mobile application TapTapSee that most of us used some years ago brings a new, completely AI-based image recognition. The quality of descriptions will be much more
accurate and the recognition will be faster.
We tested the Clew application that serves for path retracing in the indoor navigation, it is available only for iOS devices and it uses Apple ARKit and camera to understand the surrounding. While the accuracy of the application is very high in the current version, we found out that the next update will provide the functionality to save the recorded path and we hope that the list of features will be extended to help visually impaired persons to orientate more easily in an unknown indoor environment.
At the end of our episode listen to the interview that we made with Feelif and discover a new way of experiencing shapes and images by haptics and sound.
As always feel free to leave us a comment or suggestion on our Twitter account or by e-mail and we are looking forward to be back with you in July.
Wellcome to the 11th EBU Access Cast. This time we have a special episode on Sight City 2019 and we talk about all interesting tech goodies we saw at the conference. At the beginning of the episode you can listen to the interviews which Mario and Tanja prepared, and than after Mario, Tanja, Bart and our special guest Paweł Masarczyk who is very known podcaster from Poland in the Tyflopodcast discuss all about the things they saw at the Sight City.
The first interview comes from Vispero group where Jan Blum presented to us what's new with all series of their products such as JAWS, Zoom, Fusion, and also Focus Blue braille displays 5g: 14, 40 and 80 characters.
Jan also informed us about Omni reader: scanning and reading device as well as the products from Optelec Germany: video magnifier CCTV device with 16 inch screen.
In the second interview we spoke with Mr Siegfried Kipke, CEO of Help Tech that is for many listeners better known as former Handy Tech which is a very good German manufacturer of braille devices. The products demonstrated in this interview were Actilino, portable and compact braille notetaking device with 16 ergonomic concaved braille cells, unique functions such as detection of the reading positioning, bluetooth connectivity with up to 4 different devices in the same time for transferring files or to use it as a braille display, magnetic USB connection, 16 gb of storage and support for SD cards plus standard lithium batteries which are possible to find in todays smartphones. We also spoke about Active Braille and Active Star braille devices, and we had a chance to see the new Active Braille Plus with 40 cells which has similar functionalities as Actilino, but with aditional 40 braille sells, and new rabber keys which make this unit really very quiet when typing. In addition, it supports Kindle and Kindle Fire HD devices and the plan is to add the support for the Amazon's Alexa assistant.
Our next visit was at the Kanematsu corporation booth and we spoke with the manager Mr. Tetsuo Takamatsu about their new product called TactPlus.
TactPlus is a product from Japan and it represents the first braille and 3d image printer which uses thermal printing on capsule paper. It has only 5 kg and it has the same size as a standard Inkjet printer. We were standing closely while the printer was working and we couldn’t hear any noise coming out from it. In fact our opinion is that this is the most silent braille printer that we herd so far, and we were very positively surprised by the quality of the embossed graphics and braille text.
Another very good product which we demonstrated in the next interview is BraiBook and it comes from Spain. It is the first portable braille book reader with only 1 braille cell that has a size of a computer mouse. The cell can be refreshed at the desired speed which can be adjusted with a little joystick located on the left side of the device. Mr. Eric Sicard showed us the product and he explained to us that BraiBook supports currently 40 languages which are provided via the open source Liblouis braille translator, and that it also provides the text-to-speech functionality for users who want to read it via TTS through additional headphone jak. With 64 gb of internal memory, users have more than enough space to store thousands of ebooks in various formats such as Epub, PDF or TXT files and read it on the go. In few minutes we were able to get the unit going along and read the text very fast.
The APH booth was very busy with the demonstration of their new products, and one of them which we saw in action was Code Jumper for which we can't wait the official release in Europe. As you will hear from our comments later in the episode, the rest of our team is also very happy with Code Jumper and our opinion is that the product has very bright future in the blindness community.
Besides Code Jumper we also saw BrailleBuzz which is really cool gadget for very young blind students who are just starting to learn braill.
Speaking of braille devices, on the APH stand they presented also the Braile Trail, 14 cell braille display which is produced by HumanWare.
Another company which is bringing lot of attention for last few years
comes from Korea, and it is possible to see them almost on every assistive technology conference. They are called Dot incorporation, so we went to see what do they have in store for us this time. We were able to see the Dot Watch which was previously mentioned in our episodes, but we were also able to see the brand new low cost braille reader Dot Mini. It has 16 braille cels and built in speaker, Dot Mini represents modern reading unit and portable Braille display for blind people. The unit has also TTS support as well as the support for Daisy format, support for SD cards, USB and Bluetooth.
Besides all the things we mentioned, we saw a bunch of other things for which we didn't have the time to do the interviews such as meteg product: 2 dimentional graphic braille display, Tactonom by Inventivio and Seika braille displays by Nippon Telesoft.
Another cool thing which we mentioned in the later section of the podcast which we saw was the washing machine that has buttons with tactile markings. The buttons are also touch sensitive and by touching them will produce a sound to distinguish the number of the turns in the spin cycle or the desired temperature in a predefined program. The washing machine is designed to be accessible to visually impaired and it is manufactured by Miele. Miele started to make home appliances with universal design in mind since 2007, and on the next link you can read more information about it.
Pawel saw also an interesting product from Italy called FelixPhone, which is bringing another adopted smartphone for blind people, Mediavoice - Speaky Facile, the device which connects thru your smart TV, and Bruno, the reading Machine for low vision and blind people.
Last year the EBU Access Cast was launched on the Global Accessibility Awareness Day. Therefore at the end of this episode we tell you why this day is inportant for our community and we are sharing with you a short but very informative article about it.
We hope that this episode was interesting to you and that we were able to bring at least a small piece of many different things which were possible to see and experience on this years Sight City. As always you are free to leave us the comments and the suggestions on our e-mail and Twitter and we're looking forward to be back with you in June.
Welcome to the 10th EBU Access Cast. We are extremely happy that our podcast reached the 10th Episode so far, and we hope that we will keep you interested in the future as well. For you this time Mario, Jakob and Tanja prepared lots of goodies and Bart was very busy with preparing 3 nice interviews which you can listen in the second half of this Episode. But before the interviews, let's check what's new in the news Section.
- New option called accessibility events appeared under accessibility settings in the newest version for Voice Over users on Mac and iOS. While potentially this can be a nice feature which could help developers to detect that the user is using assistive Technologies on their web sites, the option is concerned as a privacy issue for some users.
- Another very nice app called Voice Dream Scanner which is able to do very good and fast OCR recognition recently appeared on the appstore, so Jakob told us his Opinion about it. You can check out more here and listen to a podcast with demonstration of the Voice Dream Scanner.
- New update for NVDA appeared as well from NVAccess, and this time it fixes a few bugs found in the original NVDA 2019.1 version.
- Android Accessibility Suite 7.3 adds Screen Search, more continuous reading options.
Next month many Europeans will vote on the European elections. However when we talk about persons with dissabilities, we have to make sure that the voting system in each countrey is accessible so we can participate in the elections as everyone else. Jakob, Mario, Tanja and Bart share their experiences about it from their perspective, and we are also bringing to you further links in the shownotes about this particular topic:
- EBU Statement on the European elections 2019
- A fundamental right to vote: Removing barriers for people with disabilities
- EDF recommends 10 REASONS TO VOTE IN THE EUROPEAN ELECTIONS to persons with disabilities
- EDF petition European elections for all
Last month in our previous episode, we covered the European Accessibility Act which in the meantime was adopted by the European Council.
Next week, some of us will visit Sight City, the biggest exhibition for assistive tech products in Europe, and we hope to bring you nice interviews from there. Click here to know more about Sight City.
Bart prepared 3 interviews for us this time:
- Interview with Susanna Laurin, recorded at the 11th edition of the Funka Accessibility Days in Stockholm:
Susanna Laurin on Twitter: - Interview with Saqib Shaikh, main person behind Seeing AI app, recorded at an accessibility summit organised by Microsoft in Brussels.
Saqib Shaikh on Twitter: - Interview with Jarnail Chudge, main person behind the Soundscapes app, recorded at an accessibility summit organised by Microsoft in Brussels:
Jarnail Chudge on Twitter
We are always happy to receive new contributions and suggestions from you, so if you got any comments or suggestions for us, contact us thru our e-mail link or send us a tweet on the Ebuaccesscast Twitter.
Wellcome to the Ebu Access Cast 09. As you will see March was very busy month for many updates in the assistive tech industry, as well as in the European Union which are very important for visually impaired community. Jakob, Mario and Tanja this time prepared many news, demos and the first guest interview for our podcast, so let's jump straight into the action and check what do we have in store for you this time.
At the beginning all of us shared the news about our new gadgets, which we will show thru the demos during this and the future episodes for you. However, before we show you the stuff from our virtual playground, let's see which news do we have:
Seeing AI got new March update with few very interesting features among which we would recommend detection of objects on the pictures. If you stay untill the end of the episode, you will be able to hear how that sounds in the demo section.
It seams that image recognition thru the artificial intelligence is slowly but surely becoming the trend inside of the assistive tech. Why do we say that? Because Vispero Group prepared new JAWS update for March, and one of its many features is also the possibility of recognising the images. If you haven't updated your version of JAWS for Windows, right now is ideal time to do it.
Spring has come for NVDA users as well because new release 2019.1 just saw the light of day, with almost 50 different improvements since the last official version. Besides many new features added, we would like to point out improved support for MS Office products, especially Office 2016 and Office 365. If you are using one of those products, please test the newest version of NVDA and let us know how do you like it.
Smart devices can be used for many different things, and playing games is definitely one of them. While many sighted people play lots of games on their smart devices, with blind and visually impaired population this is not the case unless the games are designed with accessibility in mind. This time, we bring to you the article about designing and finding the games for Android platform.
If you are happy owner of Google Home check out the following article about possible games which you can play on it.
Many people with different tipes of dissabilities will be happy to hear that European Accessibility Act is behind the corner. Therefor, we are bringing to you news from the European Parliament about it.
The end of February brought up an very interesting article from European Disability Forum with a detailed study about the state of digital accessibility of public government websites around Europe. Unfortunately, European Parliament didn't show up as the best student in class this time.
Living in the smart city can be great if you are not a person with disability. However if you have some kind of special needs, than you might find that smart cities can be nice, but also very lousy. If you are interested to know more about current and future developments and initiatives about smart and accessible cities in Europe, check out the following article:
If you think that you herd everything well than you are very very wrong, because we brought up the first interview for the Ebu Access Cast. We Sat down with Alejandro Moledo from European Disability Forum and talked about the upcoming European Accessibility Act as well as current state of the accessibility of the websites of the European governments. Once more we would like to say a huge thank you for explaining everything to our listeners. We look forward to have you again in the future shows for the upcoming topics.
At the end of this episode Jakob Rosin prepared 2 demos for you, The first is short coverage of KOBOLD VR200 ROBOT vacume cleaner, and second talks about new improvements in Seeing AI.
Do you think you have something to say, well don't be afraid, send us an e-mail or drop us the tweet on our Ebu Access Cast twitter page. We will be back with you in April, but untill than be happy and safe!
Wellcome to the 8th episode of the Ebu Access Cast. This time Mario, Jakob, Bart and Tanja prepared lots of goodies for you from the news section, and we achieved our own personal record in amount of demos prepared for our podcast. We would like to say a huge thank you to Mr. Daniel Montalvo who send to us 2 demos about amazon Echo which we are publishing in this episode, and you can hear also the demo about Google Interpreter at the end of this podcast. But first, let's see what do we have in stock from the news section:
Vispero group prepared for us new January update for Jaws 2019, and here you can see What's new in the newest update:
Mario informed the listeners that NVDA 2019.1 is being in development and which changes can be expected in the official release. If you would like to test the newest NVDA releases head over to their Snapshots page and download your copy. However be prepared that their snapshot releases are being updated on the daily bases and that the code can be sometimes unstable, but that is always the case with beta software packages. We warned you in advance, so if something gets broken on your machine, don't blame us 😊
Google interpreter finally became available around the globe, and therefor Mario and Tanja prepared the demo of it which you can hear right at the end of this episode.
If you don't know what is google interpreter mode check out the following link:
New image recognition extention called Auto Alt Text is out for some time and it supports Google Chrome browser. Tanja and Jakob tested the extension and they gave us their opinion about it..
EBU started its Silent Cars Campaign a decade ago and pushed for Acoustic Vehicle Alert Systems (AVAS) to protect blind and partially sighted pedestrians from unwanted accidents with electric vehicles (See also the EBU Q&A on AVAS). While on one hand the electric cars are much better alternative for our echological environment, the absence of the noise in the electric cars makes a huge safety problem for our population. Therefor all of us gave our thumbs up to the this EBU campaign and we express our opinions about it. We are bringing to you a few more articles about the same subject, such as the Ted Talk from Renzo Vitale one of the inventors who made its own electric car sound machines, and another article where new pedestrian noise makers are spotted in new Tesla 3 models.
Also if you would like to give us your thoughts about the particular subject drop us an e-mail and we will share it in the next episodes.
Unfortunately website inaccessibility can appear everywhere, and so it can be the case with your favorite pop artists.
Beyonce's Parkwood Entertainment Sued Over Website Accessibility
Microsoft has something really interesting in their store for young blind and partialy sighted kids who would like to get into programing:
With Code Jumper, experts look to jumpstart computer science interest for kids who are blind
After all the news which we got for you, it is the right time for Demo time, or better to say Demo times, since this time we bring you 3 demos about Amazon Echo and Google Interpreter. We hope tht you liked them as much as we did. We are looking forward to be back with you next month, and don't forget to send us your thoughts about the subjects, as well as new suggestions and possible demos of the products which we didn't cover so far.
Wellcome to the 7th Ebu Access Cast, the first episode for 2019. We decided to make some changes and refresh our team with new people. Therefor from now on we have new person who will bring a girl power into our team. We wish warm wellcome to Tanja Kleut who is an accessibility specialist at the European parliament, and who joined Mario and Jakob in this episode.
At the beginning we gave a small round up on the gadgets which each of us got for the holidays. Jakob got him self a paire of the Aftershokz Trekz Air and Mario shared a small tip for all the listeners how to engage the Equalizer settings on the Aftershokz boan conduction headsets which dramatically improve the over all sound of the headset. Mario got him self a new Cubot King Kong 3, very interesting Android smartphone which has military-grade standards and which is 100% accessible to blind and partially sighted population. Tanja got her self the Sunu band for which she herd from our podcast.
This time in the news section we covered quite a lot of different things.
CES 2019 the biggest Consumer Electronics Show was held just recently in Las Vegas, and among different things which are being presented every year, the accessible products have their space as well. We selected a few for you which we found interesting:
WeWALK 'Smart' Cane For People With Visual Impairments got the attention this year. Since the device is very similar to the Sunu band which we previously covered in our podcast, we said that it would be great to have the smart ccane tested in the future and compare it with the Sunu band.
VisionCheck, a paire of new glasses which are able to test your vision at home were also shown at the CES, so if anybody got the chance to try the paire, we would like to get the feedback for them.
Google Assistant’s new Interpreter Mode turns Google Home, Smart Displays into a translation tool. UP untill this point we couldn't try the feature on our Google home devices because it is still not available in Europe, so we can't wait to get the feature available in the future updates of the Google Home app.
The Paciello Group published their blog post about the CES 2019 and what they found interesting there, so we are bringing it to you as the easy read for long winter nights.
Except the CES, a cupple of other accessible tech gadgets cought our attention as well:
Cash Reader, the application for money identification just got released in the last previous weeks, and the app is getting lots of positive feedback from the visually impaired community for a few particular reasons. First, the app is covering more than 20 different currencies at this moment. Also it does not need internet connection to recognise the bils, it can also announce the ammount of money identified in silent mode, and all users who want to try the application can test it for the period of 2 weeks for free and the app will work in full mode. Currently Cash Reader is available for iOS devices and the Android version is coming out in the next few weeks.
Breda wins 2019 Access City Award for making the city more accessible to citizens with disabilities. Nobody from our team visited Breda, but since we know that we have the listeneres from the Nederlands we'd like to hear your opinion about it. We also shortly talked about the accessibility status of our cities, so if you would like to give us the opinion about the public accessibility of your city, you are more than wellcome to do it and we wil publish it in our podcast.
On the January 4th we celebrated the Worlds Braille day. Therefor we talked about the inportance of knowing Braille and what's going on in the modern ICT industry regarding various Braille devices, and what are the trends today regarding the Braille production.
Bristol Braille Technology: is putting Canute, the world's first multi-line digital Braille e-reader into the production this year. Canute is another device which is gaining lot of attention at this moment, and besides being the first multi-line digital Braille e-reader, it falls into the category of very affordable devices such as the Orbit reader 20 which was just launched a few months ago.
For the end of the podcast Tanja shared some accessibility news as well.
Updated and harmonised EU Standards for public procurement of ICT products and services are available.24 accessibility recommendations from accessibility experts
This time we didn't have the time for any recorded tips or tutorials for you because there was a lot of stuff to cover but we will be back with it next month for sure. As always you are free to send us e-mail or drop us a Tweet on our official Twitter page. We are looking forward to be back with you next month.
Wellcome to the 6th episode of the Ebu Access Cast. As this is our last episode before we go on the short vacation, we would like to wish you all the best for the upcoming holidays, and that Mr Santa brings to you a bunch of the assistive tech devices and gadgets under the Christmas tree.
IN the news section this time we got the following for you:
Instagram is Becoming More Accessible for the Visually Impaired With Two New Features
The following is a follow up article about current status of the social media accessibility:
NVDA 2018.4rc2 Released
In the mean time before we published our current episode , we found out that the official version of NVDA 2018.4 was released, and therefor you can check it here:
Microsoft Edge: Making the web better through more open source collaboration
More technical detailed explanation from Microsoft on the new transition for the Edge browser
Skype launches real-time captions and subtitles
Microsoft published complete Guide for people who are blind or low vision for Windows 10 and Office
Welcome to the new Standard keyboard layout for Narrator
Free introductory webinar for Office 365 with Jaws
New documentary about digital accessibility in the European Parliament is out and you can watch it here:
Jakob and Mario are recommending a few gadgets to purchase for the Christmas, and for the end of the podcast Mario shared the audio tip for Android users how to turn off Picture in picture mode which can be a litle frustrating when Android is being used from the blindness prospective.
As always, our e-mail is always open for the feedback from our listeners, and you can also send us the Tweet on our EBUaccesscast Twitter account. We are looking forward to be back with you in January, but til than, enjoy in our last episode for this year, and have a wonderfull holidays!
Welcome to the newest and fifth episode of the Ebu Access Cast. After one month period of silence during October due to a few technical problems and the Jakobs trip to Amazonian forests, we are back to bring you the newest content from around the globe from the assistive industry, and boy boy, we have a lot of interesting things to say this time. If you stay with us until the end of the news announcements, you will be able to hear our surprise demonstration about the new product, which is hitting our blindness, and sight impaired community like a storm these days. We received our first contribution from one of our listeners from Denmark which means that our podcast is being listened and followed, so we'd like to say once more thank you, Keep sending us your feedback, we are looking to expand our podcast even more in the future.
In the news section, first Jakob informs us about new software update for the Orcam, which brings new voice commands, new language support and Bluetooth connectivity. If you would like to know more about the Orcam follow the next link.
GE and Alexa Work Together to Create a Voice-Controlled Microwave with Scan to Cook Technology, and Mario tells us a bit more about it
Beginning of November started with the newest updates for Jaws 2019 as well as Fusion and Zoomtext. To read what's new for Jaws users follow this link: Mario and Jakob are also mentioning why it is important to keep our screen readers up to date, and why new Jaws 2019 is much faster than the previous versions on the web as well as in the Office applications.
Good independence in orientation and mobility is very important for blind or visually impaired person. However, when new GPS technological solutions are used properly with the aids such as white Cane or a guide dog, our independence can be increased even further. Therefore, Mario informs our listeners what's new for the last few weeks in the Lazarillo application, available for the iOS and Android platform, and why the application works much better now when used in the walking mode, which is used for the pedestrian navigation.
The last thing for the end of this episode is the demonstration, which we received from Jesper Holten who is accessibility consultant for the Danish association of the blind. The demonstration talks about the Sunu band. Using radar and augmented reality, Sunu Band enables people who are low vision and blind to travel with confidence. Advanced haptic feedback guides your way around any obstacle, and navigation sensors connect you to the world that’s around you. Designed for when you can’t easily use sight or due to a vision impairment, Sunu Band enables you to walk and travel with confidence. Sunu Band is the only smart-band that guides your way around obstacles. It uses sonar or echolocation to detect objects up to 16 feet or 5.5 meters away. Then haptic vibration feedback informs how close (or far away) you are to obstacles. Sunu Band compliments the white cane, guide dog or low vision. This smart-band augments your personal awareness, and reduces accidents to the body, chest, arms and head. Sunu Band is the only intelligent travel aid with more built-in sensors than any other device in the market. Explore and navigate unfamiliar places with Sunu Band’s haptic compass, place finder/explorer and GPS navigation app. Now you can enjoy the personal freedom of always knowing where you are, what’s around you, and how to get there with Sunu Band.
As always, we love to get your feedback, so if you have anything to say to us, send us an e-mail to ebu@euroblind.org or give us a tweet on our EBUaccesscast twitter account.
Welcome to our newest episode of the Ebu Access Cast. After very hot summer, our team is back with the newest news reports from the assistive tech industry. However before we get into the newest updates we would like to notify our listeners that from now on our podcast is available on the iTunes as well, so anyone who is using their favourite Apple gadget or smart speaker such as Google Home is finally able to hear us and listen to our show when and where ever you want. To find us on the iTunes you can visit the following link:
On September 12th, Apple had their 2018 event where many news about new Apple devices were announced. Besides launch of new hardware products, we also saw new update for the iOS 12, which brings new accessibility improvements. Jakob for this episode told us about what’s new for the Voice Over users, and here is the full list of the accessibility features expected for this release. You can also visit the newest The Blind Side podcast to hear recap of the newest Apple event with the accessibility prospective in mind.
While we recorded our last episode we announced the release of NVDA 2018 3RC3 which was last release candidate version before the official 2018.3 version. Highlights of this release include automatic detection of many Braille displays, support for new Windows 10 features including the Windows 10 Emoji input panel, and many other bug fixes. However just as we prepared our shownotes for this episode we discovered that day ago official 2018.3.1 officially got released, so if you want to grab it go here and download it.
On September 23rd, European Web accessibility directive will officially become new standard in Europe for public sector web sites. Therefor-new WCAG 2.1 guidelines are starting to be adopted across Europe. Shadi Abou-Zahra wrote an excellent article about it which you can read it here.
Since we can’t finish the episode without the review of some assistive tech products, this time Bart told us the news and his opinion about the Dot watch, which represents the first smart watch equipped with Braille, sells instead of the typical talking watch environment for blind people.
As always we are always opened for the comments and suggestions from you, so if you want to drop us anything interesting including something we missed out you can contact us thru our Twitter or send us email on ebuaccesscast@euroblind.org
Welcome to the third episode of the Ebu Access Cast, our official podcast from EBU about assistive technology for blind and partially sighted population across the Europe. In our final episode before the summer break Jakob Rosin and Mario Percinic are joined by Bart Simons from Belgium as our third member of the team who gave us one more opinion opinion about the upcoming stories which we prepared for you this time.
Apple Developing Device and Wearable to Help Deaf and Blind Travelers
How Android Phone Users Can Send Text Messages from Any Computer
Portugal First in EU to Include Braille on Passports
TalkBack App Renamed to Android Accessibility Suite in Recent Update
Using AI to empower people with disabilities
Last but not least, Mario gave us a short demonstration of "ACUSTICA - The Swiss Watch for all senses". You can checkout more information about the watch and how to purchase it from their official web site.
For any comments and the suggestions you can write to us on ebuaccesscast@euroblind.org or send us a Tweet on our official Twitter. We are looking forward to being back with many news and updates in September.
Welcome to our second episode of the Ebu Access Cast. Our hosts Mario Percinic and Jakob Rosin prepared a bunch of news from the assistive tech industry, and at the end of the Podcast, you will be able to hear a short demonstration about Google Home.
But first let’s check what news do we have for you this time:
Microsoft launched new version of Windows 10 for all members of their Windows Insiders program, and the version is called Windows 10 Insider Preview Build 17692.
Except many new improvements for all users, a few accessibility related topics are covered as well. Ease of Access has a new feature for partially sighted users so that all the content can be bigger; Narrator has a new list of keyboard layout, which you can find here:
Besides new keyboard layout Narrator now supports
- Automatic Dialog Reading: Narrator will now automatically read the contents of a dialog box when brought to the foreground. The experience is for Narrator to speak the title of the dialog, the focused element within the dialog and the static text, if any, at the top of the dialog. For example, if you try to close a document in Word with unsaved changes, Narrator will speak the title “Microsoft Word,” the focus “Save button” and the static text within the dialog.
- Narrator Find: You now have the ability to search for text using Narrator’s new Find feature. If the text is found Narrator will move to the found item. Please refer to the accompanying keyboard layout documentation for command mapping.
- List of Objects: Narrator now has the ability to present a list of links, headings or landmarks present in the application or content. You are also able to filter the results by typing in the list or the text field of the window. Please refer to the accompanying keyboard layout documentation for command mapping.
- Selection in Scan Mode: Along with being able to select content in Narrator’s scan mode using Shift-selection commands, you can now also select a block of data by first moving to one end of the block and pressing F9, moving to the other end of the block and pressing F10. Once F10 is pressed, the entire contents between the two points will be selected.
- Stop on Controls in Scan Mode: Scan mode is a feature of Narrator that lets you use just a few keys to move around your screen. Scan mode is already on by default in Edge and you can toggle it on and off by pressing Caps lock + Spacebar. While you’re in scan mode, you can press the Up and Down arrow keys to read different parts of the page. With this update, the press of a Down arrow in Scan Mode will stop on interactive elements, so that they are easier to use. An example of this new behavior is that if you are reading a paragraph with multiple links, Narrator will stop on these links when you press the Down arrow.
New Accessibility Features Coming to iPhone, Mac, Apple TV and Apple Watch
To check out all the accessibility related news for the upcoming Apple OS releases follow the link above.
Jakob gave us a short review about Aira, a new system which helps blind people to navigate around by using a special glasses or a smartphone with the guidance and the assistance from professional agents.
NVDA a very popular free screen reader has a new version for this year called 2018.2, and the list of improvements can be found here.
New version of JAWS was also launched during May and besides many improvements in the May update the biggest one is the support for Firefox 60, also called Firefox Quantum, which is finally working, again, after all of the blind users had a huge problems with Firefox performance at the end of 2017.
Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) 2.1 finally saw the day of its official release.
WCAG 2.1 was initiated with the goal to improve accessibility guidance for three major groups: users with cognitive or learning disabilities, users with low vision, and users with disabilities on mobile devices. To check out all the features listed visit the link on the W3C website.
Those of you who had enough patience to stay and listen to us until the end can enjoy in the demonstration from Jakob about google home.
As always, you are free to contact us thru multiple channels including our email and Twitter, and we are looking forward to bring you new stuff during the upcoming summer.
Welcome to the first episode of the EbuAccessCast, an official podcast from EBU which talks about assistive technology for blind and partially sighted people across Europe. Our hosts today in the first episode, Mario Percinic and Jakob Rosin, introduce themselves and then later talk about few things which occurred during last week in the mainstream tech portals as well as a few others which happened in the assistive tech industry.
In the news:
Google's Lookout will help the blind navigate their environment
Mario and Jakob talk briefly about the description of the Lookout app and share their opinion about it.
AppleVis has launched their 2018 edition of the iOS App Hall of Fame for which you can vote here, and Jakob talks briefly about the Nominees
Google assistant books restaurants and hair salons for you:
In future episodes we look forward to bringing you the interviews from the makers of the assistive tech products from all around the globe and the reviews about the gadgets which we tested personally so we can tell you how good and accessible they are. Also we are open for suggestions and submissions about the product reviews from the other users. If you want to contact us, you can send us email on ebuaccesscast@euroblind.org or check out our EbuaccessCast twitter.