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Don’t expect Krista Gionet to micromanage. That’s not going to happen. The CEO of the Windsor-Essex County Association of REALTORS®, and this year's recipient of CREA’s Association Executive Network (AEN) Award of Excellence, prides herself on putting people in positions to succeed.

Join host Shaun Majumder in conversation with Krista, where she shares what makes a good leader, the role of associations in their respective communities, and why she’s adamant about being a voice for REALTORS®.

The 2025 AEN Award of Excellence is sponsored by REAL TIME.

Transcript

Shaun Majumder: You're like the Connor McDavid of REALTORS®.

Krista Gionet: The cell phones were like this, and the servers were the size of my office.

Shaun: When I say "micromanaging," you say?

Krista: No, not going to happen.

Shaun: Leadership, it's an important part of every organization. In your industry, in the real estate industry, association executives are very important in bringing people together, working together, connecting with their members. Today, I am so excited because we have a very, very special leader, Krista Gionet. She is the CEO of the Windsor-Essex County Association of REALTORS®. She's been doing it for 36 years. She's aiming to do it for another 15 years. She is a boss.

Krista is the 2025 recipient of the AEN Award of Excellence award. It's amazing. It's so great. In speaking with her, you're going to meet somebody who is driven, passionate about the industry, passionate about her members, passionate about her community. She is unapologetically proud. I think that's something that is so important in a great leader. Today, Krista and I, we talk about leadership.

We talk about the journey. We talk about the changes in the industry. We talk about how she sees it moving forward. We're really excited. I think you're going to love this conversation. Krista Gionet, she is with us here on REAL TIME. I hope you enjoy. Krista Gionet, welcome to REAL TIME. This is very exciting. I'm so excited to talk to you today because we talk a lot in podcasts all over the world about leadership, about leaders. You, listen, I'm talking to 2025 AEN Award of Excellence winner. I'm humbled.

Krista: So am I. So am I.

Shaun: How do you feel? Tell me about this honour and what it means to you, and how does it fit into all the great accomplishments that you've had over the years?

Krista: I think it's huge. Having been in this industry for 36 years this year, I think I'm being recognized by my peers, who are some amazing people. I was very humbled and very emotional. It was very exciting to receive.

Shaun: Awesome, so you have to forgive me. I'm a little ignorant in the world of associations versus individual REALTORS®. Tell me a little bit about the association that you work with and that you're an executive of, and also educate me a little bit on the general Canadian world of all the different associations. You don't have to tell me about all of them, but associations is something that I find very interesting and how really important they are when it comes to the industry.

Krista: Yes, Windsor-Essex, our association, has 1,700 members. I have eight staff. We provide services to our members, whether it be education, technology training, keynote speakers. We have a board of directors. We have several couple of hundred volunteers on committees who all provide input to set us in the direction we want to go.

Shaun: The members are all REALTORS®?

Krista: Correct.

Shaun: You're there to support everything that they're doing?

Krista: Yes, we try to provide all the services that they need for their day-to-day business.

Shaun: Right, right. Obviously, your peers have seen you as one of the greatest leaders in the history of the world of associations. Tell me about that. What does that mean to you as an executive? Actually, tell me a little bit about your trajectory, how you got to where you are now.

Krista: I actually started in the MLS department. I was there for one year, and then I moved up into the confidential secretary to the EO at that time. I became the assistant for 10 years. I basically had came out of high school, so getting the job was a little bit more difficult. I ended up getting my CAE designation through the Canadian Society of Executives. Then I took the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA, course and then I got the job.

Shaun: Right out of high school.

Krista: Right out of high school. Well, 11 years later.

Shaun: You're like the Connor McDavid of REALTORS®.

Krista: Something like that.

Shaun: In terms of coming right out of high school, you mentioned that, is that something that is not your normal path?

Krista: No, not a normal path. Normally, people have human resources. They have various college or university courses before they enter into something like that. I had the will for it.

Shaun: When you say "the will," tell me a bit about that. From an early on, part of what you saw as your own personal vision, tell me a little bit about how you saw yourself and what trajectory you wanted to go on.

Krista: I think I found it very intriguing. I actually love what REALTORS® do. On a day-to-day basis, finding people homes is one thing, but from the association perspective, seeing how much they give to their communities, how much they volunteer. That is what I think drives me. It's the passion about how much they do for the communities. I really believe that they're ambassadors of their communities. I don't think that the general public know this as much.

Shaun: No. From your perspective, in terms of those early days when you came out of high school, that says something about your personality. I don't know you. We've never really met before other than our briefing call. It sounds like you're a very determined and very assertive person. Is that a fair–

Krista: That's a fair statement, yes. I am a big advocator in getting things done. I see a vision and I make it happen. Then I guess seeing what I could become versus where I was was something I really wanted.

Shaun: Right, and it sounds like coming up through those ranks, nobody's handing you anything.

Krista: No, I had to work hard. Actually, I have a unionized staff. Back in the '90s, they did go on strike. I thought it was an opportunity for myself to prove myself. I think I worked 90 hours a week during that nine-week period. It was recognized, so that was nice.

Shaun: That's awesome. One of the things, and I was reading through the briefing notes, a lot of your peers. I know this is probably hard for you to talk about, but your peers have identified you as somebody who is such a great leader, somebody who leads by example, somebody who is very assertive and very clear in your path. Have you always been this way? Is that something that you've always had inside of you in everything that you did? Do you look at yourself that way or are you just that way?

Krista: I do look at myself as lead by example. When it comes to my employees, I feel like, you start from the top. You set an example that they see, so they want to become the same way, and give back as much as you do.

Shaun: Yes, how would you just say, if you were describing what makes a good leader?

Krista: Every person is different. I believe that for my own self, I empower my employees to do their jobs. I pick them uniquely for the jobs that I know would work for them. Not everybody works the same way. Everybody works at different paces. Everybody's good at something and exceptional at other things. I basically take a look at our team and see who's got the potential to do what, and then give them the tools to do it and support them.

Shaun: When I say "micromanaging," you say?

Krista: No, not going to happen.

Krista: Not on my watch, not going to happen. I feel there's no need for that.

Shaun: Right. What do you see as the response, because there's probably people that come into the association who've had to deal with that, in other associations, or just even in their jobs generally? What's the reaction when they meet you and they feel empowered?

Krista: Well, I can tell you for a fact, all of my staff have the utmost respect for me as I do for them. I think that they appreciate it. They appreciate that I don't micromanage. I know that they have a job to do. If they need support, I'm here. I have an open-door policy, so they can come to me at any time. I think you have to give people a chance to show you what their skills and assets are, and then let them run with it.

Shaun: As an association executive, tell me about what the metrics are in your mind that say, "Hey, we, Windsor-Essex, we're kicking butt here," or, "We need to pull some other levers here. There's things we can improve on." How do you view an association, and what makes it tick?

Krista: Obviously, every association has a strategic plan. We did a three-year plan, which we'll be doing again at the end of this year. I think that you're led by your plan. For us, we always try and think outside of the box, and depending on what's happening within our community, and what we can do to better our community through our REALTORS®. That's one thing that we do pay attention to.

Shaun: Bettering the community, generally speaking, are there specifics when you talk about bettering the community that you guys have identified in your three-year plan?

Krista: Yes. In our last plan, we wanted to promote the use of a local REALTORS®, obviously, so we had a five-year campaign going on right now on social media and advertising that is promoting the REALTORS®. It's called We Bring You Home. We have that available for our members to use on their own social media sites. Advocacy is another huge one. Three years ago, we really said that we wanted to do a lot with advocacy, which we have been doing for the past three years. I had a meeting just a couple of days ago. We're talking about some big plans with respect to what we're going to look at for 2025 and 2026. It's like some really big thinking-outside-of-the-box ideas, and I hope they pan out.

Shaun: Can you share a little more about what those ideas are?

Krista: One of the items is working with the towns to discuss development charges and possibility of getting a piece of land and using the prefab homes as an example for affordable living, so we're going to try and work with some different organizations to see if we can make that come to fruition.

Shaun: Taking a piece of land, is this with local developers, so the association worked directly with the construction-

Krista: A developer.

Shaun: -developer people to say, "Hey, listen, we want to work together here and promote this new model"? Is that safe to say?

Krista: Right. Yes, so the government, obviously, right now is saying that prefab homes are going to get them built faster, built stronger, and stuff like that. It's the thought of, what does affordability look like? From there, where do we go, right? Obviously, a lot of areas have $800 million, these big homes coming up, but where are these smaller prefab homes that everybody's talking about? Can we make this become a reality to show that there can be affordable homes?

Shaun: What's your feeling about that? Do you think that is a good way forward?

Krista: I think it's great. I think it's great if we can make it happen. We've got a lot of great REALTORS® volunteers. They're dedicated to the mission. Hopefully, we make it happen.

Shaun: What else? Affordability, obviously, is a huge one, and thinking about Windsor-Essex as far as– My sister lives in Kingsville, and so I've been down there quite a bit. There's a lot of land, but what's available? Is there a lot of space to develop these new models?

Krista: There is a lot of land. There is a lot of space as well. Even in Windsor, we lobbied the city council on several issues with respect to vacant properties that the city owns. They are releasing some of those for sale now, which can build more homes in those areas that are just sitting vacant. I look around. We've talked about this at our committees. There are so many schools that are vacant. That could create a lot of homes for people.

Shaun: Right. Did you say schools that are vacant?

Krista: Yes.

Shaun: Wow.

Krista: We had a couple of schools closed over the last couple of years and they're vacant. They're just sitting there vacant. I think we keep pushing for the city and the towns to release these properties so that something can come of them.

Shaun: When it comes to the association and its relationship to municipalities, what kind of ongoing conversation are you having with them, and how important is that relationship?

Krista: I would say, at least 10 times a year, we've had roundtables with the mayor. We've had presentations at the county, presentations at the city. I think it's very important to have that rapport with them. We held a civic luncheon in 2023, where we had 250 people come out. We had all of the mayors and the council come. We did some studies for them and addressed a few points with them, and then we developed a five-point plan, provided it to them. They've actually come up and dealt with some of the issues that we've suggested.

Shaun: That's awesome, so they are listening.

Krista: They are. Yes, they are.

Shaun: They probably want it too, right?

Krista: I can't imagine any location across Canada that wouldn't want to make their area better, more affordable, and to deal with all the issues that are going on, the homeless. There are just so many issues that every area is experiencing. We're just trying to do our part.

Shaun: That sounds amazing because it's something that I personally am not aware of. Even before starting this, working on this podcast, when I think of a REALTORS®, I think they're an individual who their goal is to buy and sell homes, yes, to work with the community, but I don't think the public is really aware at how much of a broader impact REALTORS® do have. Can you speak a little bit about that, and also about the value of the individual REALTORS® and what they offer their community?

Krista: Well, to be honest, all across Canada, all REALTORS® are ambassadors of their own communities. They really are. They contribute so much to the community that, like you said, the general public does not know. At the end of the day, I look at our association. Every year, we give and donate to various charities, programs. We have a room at the hospice. Some of our REALTORS® donated the property for the hospice.

We have our rooms at the hospitals. We have equipment we purchased for the hospitals. This is all done by revenue-generated events that REALTORS® come to participate. Then on top of that, our members, they all do their own thing. Some support WE Care for Kids. Some support Transition to Betterness. The REALTORS® are constantly giving back to the communities. They're ambassadors of their own areas.

Shaun: Yes, it sounds like you think it's a given. I guess, unconsciously, if I'm a REALTORS®, I want nothing but the best for my community. It makes every bit of sense in the world for them to do everything they can to support the community.

Krista: They're doing it from their own pure hearts. This has nothing to do with selling a property. It isn't about that. It's about the people and who they are. Our area has been known for constantly giving, and our REALTORS®, but they don't toot their own horns. They don't let people know what they're doing because they're doing it from their heart. They're not doing it to get the recognition. Yet, in my humble opinion, I believe that they should and do deserve the recognition. The stories should be told.

Shaun: Where do you think REALTORS® specifically can do more to boost their own across the board? Is it a Canadian thing, or is it just genuinely being selfless leads you to this place like, "I don't need credit. I'm doing this for the love of the game"?

Krista: A prime example, we are a border city. They are our allies. I know that there's a big controversy right now, but I don't look at it like that. They are our allies.

Shaun: 100%.

Krista: When Flint had a damaged water, we rallied. We shipped water over to them because that's what you do. If you have a pure heart and a good heart, that's what you do. Our REALTORS® didn't think twice. When stuff happens across Canada, we support. It's what our REALTORS® do. They should be proud to be Canadian because we do have big hearts. They just don't let the world know as much as they are doing.

It's funny. When I started in this industry, there was a lot of full-time REALTORS®. That's what they did. This is back in the '80s, so it makes sense, right? When I started, I thought to myself, "Wow, these people spend money before they even know they're going to make money." That's mind-blowing. They're doing advertising. They're taking people in their cars, gas money. The extent that they go to before they even know they're going to get a paycheck, it's amazing.

Shaun: Yes, that's the heart of a real entrepreneur right there.

Krista: How many people are going to work for free until they know whether they're going to get a paycheque? Not a lot.

Shaun: Not a lot, not a lot. You got to believe in it for sure.

Krista: Then still give back to their community.

Shaun: Yes.

Krista: That's huge.

Shaun: For all the REALTORS® watching this, guys, not only a pat on your own back, but you're hearing it from an executive, and did I mention 2025 AEN Award of Excellence winner? So good, and there's a reason why. Again, when you talk about this, I think you are leading by example. I'm hoping REALTORS® out there are watching this and going, "Yes, you know what? We do need to give ourselves a little more credit. We do need to prop ourselves up, if not, even just within the community." I'm sure there are other awards too, but it's not just about one award. I think it's a culture thing, don't you?

Krista: It's a culture thing, 100%. That's why I say REALTORS® across Canada, because I've met some fabulous people over the years. They're all the same. They all have the same heart. They all have the same mindset. I hope they toot their horn too.

Shaun: Oh, for sure. For sure.

Krista: I'm going to continue to do it on their behalf.

Shaun: You got to do it.

Krista: That's it. As I should.

Shaun: She's going for 2026. She's going to win 2026 AEN Award of Excellence. Oh, I do love it. Now, wait, how many years have you been doing this?

Krista: This year, September, it will be 36 years.

Shaun: 36 years?

Krista: 36.

Shaun: Did you start when you were eight?

Krista: Not quite.

Shaun: What? Amazing. When you started back in the day, what are some of the biggest changes you've noticed in the industry over the years, like in 36 years?

Krista: Oh, good Lord.

Shaun: I know there's been lots, but–

Krista: A ton, yes, a ton. We were DOS-based, put it that way. There was no internet. Think about that, right? The cell phones were like this. The servers were the size of my office, and it's crazy. It has evolved so much.

Shaun: Right.

Krista: Rightfully so. There's so much different legislation now. FinTrack didn't exist. It's just evolved immensely since I started.

Shaun: For the better, for the worse, what do you think?

Krista: For the better. I think for the better. Progress is good. Things have to change. You can't be afraid of change.

Shaun: Technology is creeping in everywhere.

Krista: Everywhere.

Shaun: It always has. Now, do you see the future of the real estate industry with the advent of AI? Do you feel like that's going to change a lot of things within the industry from your association's perspective?

Krista: I don't know if it'll change the industry per se, but it is a tool that members can definitely benefit from. I see it in the future. I see it. It's here now. People are using Copilot. They're using ChatGPT. We're not just talking about writing up descriptions for your listings. There's so much more that they can do with it. I do see that it will be something that will be implemented into our own systems.

Shaun: Are you encouraging your members to participate and learn?

Krista: For sure. Any kind of learning is good. It doesn't matter what technology it is. The more you grow, the better you are.

Shaun: Have you been ongoing with your education as do you– is that something you have to do to keep up with your certifications, or is that just something that you do because that makes you a much better leader?

Krista: I do it because it's in my contract, and I love it. At the end of the day, there are things that are mandatory. There are mandatory trainings that you have to do. There are seminars you have to take. There's legal that you have to have every year to make sure that you're ahead of the curve for what's coming and stuff like that. Yes, continued growth and education is number one.

Shaun: There's things you have to take, but are there things that you're like, "Ooh, I can't wait to learn more about X, Y, and Z? Tell me about that.

Krista: Yes, so technology. The Inman conference, I attend every year. I attend it because I love it.

Shaun: What's that? Tell me about that.

Krista: It's a technology conference. They always introduce new products that are out there or technologies that are out there. Those are things that I enjoy and love.

Shaun: Can you give me some examples? As a total layperson, maybe even some REALTORS® are not aware of.

Krista: Well, some of the software is like Copilot. When you go there, if you've never used it before, you just learn that this is another ChatGPT, if you will, that does even more. It's things like that.

Shaun: What would be a practical use of that?

Krista: I think all of these tools and the AI tools are think smarter, work harder, opposite. I think that's key because it's a very busy industry. Realtors aren't nine-to-five. I think it's beneficial for them to utilize these tools to save time and money on their end.

Shaun: I would imagine now because, currently, it seems to be all about the data. It's all about data. I know REALTORS® are all about data and listings and comps and interest rates and pricing and all of these trends, the real estate market. Not only that, but the dollar, oil, price of oil, all of it is connected.

Krista: All of it.

Shaun: To have that at your fingertips is probably an amazing thing. There's probably people who are not jumping on board either. There's probably traditionalists who are like, "No, no, no, I'm keeping the big phone." What do you say to those people?

Krista: No. Yes, I know. Again, they're all members. We had, back in the day, produced MLS catalogs. We had our own print shop to produce these catalogs. We had our own MLS catalog, then we had our own sales catalog. You would be surprised when we got rid of that process because it was available electronically. We still had hundreds of REALTORS® who chose to have those booklets still. We continued because it's a service they want to pay for, so we let them pay for it. Then it windowed itself out years ago. You have to look at everybody.

Like I said, even with my employees, not everybody learns the same way. Not everybody does things at the same pace. You have to be conscious of every type of REALTORS® that you're working with, right? We have some REALTORS® who come in. They might've taken training four times because they're just not grasping it. That's okay. Then we have REALTORS® that don't even come in because they pick up technology like nothing. You have to always look at each individual person. There's a lot of different styles out there.

Shaun: I think that, bottom line, it's really about relationships in the end, human relationships. Regardless of AI and regardless of all the rest, it's really about relationships. What do you think is your top five or top three characteristics of being in good relationships as a corporate leader, as a leader within the association at large when it comes to doing business in real estate?

Krista: I think trust, respect, personality, fairness. I think those are some of my top.

Shaun: How does one earn trust?

Krista: By proving yourself. We all, I'm sure, have come into people that have not been trustworthy in your lives, but it's a lesson learned, right? I believe in giving everyone the benefit of the doubt. I would never judge a book by its cover at all. Like I said, you have to understand that every person is different. Every REALTORS® is different. Every employee is different. You have to bear that in mind.

Shaun: Yes, for sure. I think integrity seems to be one of those things.

Krista: Huge.

Shaun: Because integrity builds trust and-

Krista: Honesty.

Shaun: -honesty comes with integrity. I have a feeling your sniff test is pretty quick. You're like, "Yes, no, yes, no," right?

Krista: I tend to stand off a bit. Yes, I do have that detector a little bit. It's like, "You got to prove yourself to me before I'm trusting you." Yes, I do have that.

Shaun: Right, you're a boss. You're a boss. I say that as a big old compliment. I think it's important that we recognize that and not apologize for it either.

Krista: Yes.

Shaun: I was surrounded by strong women growing up in Newfoundland. They had no qualms about it. This is, "What you see is what you get, and I'm not going to be fake." How important is that in your line of work when you look at your own compass and dealing with probably a wide spectrum of people?

Krista: I'm the same. I'm from the same cloth. What you get is what you get. I'm not going to be phony. I'm not going to be anything but who I am. I cannot. It's funny when I took over the position, I actually made that statement to the board of directors when I got hired. I am who I am. I'm going to tell it like it is. I'm going to be blunt. If I think we're making a bad decision, I'm going to let you know my thoughts. You guys roll with it where you want to go. I think trust and transparency is the key.

Shaun: How do people react to that?

Krista: Great. It's 36 years. I'm still here.

Shaun: Yes, I think it's awesome. I think it's awesome. That's obviously why you are the 2025 Award of Excellence winner. When you think about the association and when we talk about boards supporting REALTORS®, is there anything you think that boards can be doing differently at all, or do you feel like things are working the right way? What are the things that boards can improve upon?

Krista: I don't know. I'm sure there's lots that we can improve upon. For this survey or for this next strat plan, we're going to be doing a survey out to the members to try and hear what's working for them, what's not working for them. Where can we improve? Are there any programs that we're running that you're not utilizing? Things like that. You have to talk to your stakeholders. You have to know what works and what doesn't for them in order to proceed and move forward, and make change.

Shaun: If I'm a REALTORS® and I have something that I want changed, is that an open-door thing, or is there any kind of power struggle there at all? Again, this is for me, not really understanding or living inside of this. How is that relationship generally? How is that?

Krista: There is a saying that people say, "Well, if only 1% or 10% of the membership asked for this, there's no sense in looking at it." I don't believe in that because that's just that 10% idea. I try and bring anything that the members give to me. I try and address it at our meetings to see if anything comes of it. Sometimes people can have some amazing ideas out there that you're not even thinking about at your board table, right? Why wouldn't you listen to your stakeholders? You want to know what they want. You want to know what works for them. You want to give them the best service and quality that they deserve, right?

Shaun: Right, yes.

Krista: They're working hard out there. It's not an easy industry. They're busting their butts out there. It depends on the year like we're going through right now with the tariffs and recessions. There are so many things that you have to look at, what's happening in the economy, what's happening in the community, and what can we do better for them? It's something that we're constantly looking at. If we had a crystal ball and could figure it all out, we'd all be set for life, but that's not reality. You have to listen. Listening is key.

Shaun: Listening is key. Now, you had mentioned programs. Tell me about programs and how the association has had to adapt over the years.

Krista: I'll give you an example. During COVID, we only had in-person training. That's all we had. We offer to our members, and they all came in for new member orientations, for technology, and so forth. When COVID hit, we had to adapt and make it all electronic so that the members could still get orientated, get trained. Now, we offer both because some people like to do it electronically, and some people want to be in person. They want their hands-on. We had to adapt with that. There's various programs that we do. We have a scholarship program for our bursary scholarship for our members, kids, and stuff like that. That's something we used to budget for. Now, we raise the money for it, so the members aren't paying for it. Do you know what I mean?

Shaun: Yes.

Krista: It didn't make sense to me for the members to be paying for their– "Okay, give us your dues. This part goes to this."

Shaun: On top of that.

Krista: Yes, so we try and look at things that we can make self-funded. We have a gala that we do every year, which is where we raise a lot of our funds that go to the community. That's supported by our brokerages and that's supported by our members. There's usually 1,000 people that come out to it. It's phenomenal. Again, that's all programs that help the community.

Shaun: Right. You had mentioned too a while back. Not in today's conversation. I heard you say something about when you guys were creating this opportunity for retirees in your area.

Krista: Yes.

Shaun: Speak about that a little bit.

Krista: Yes, so I think it's about 10 years now, maybe eight. We were in a recession. We reached out to the Chamber of Commerce. We reached out to the homebuilders. Our group decided that we need to do something. We were in a recession. We felt we had to do something. We formed a not-for-profit organization. It was called We Are Key. It basically promoted the 100-mile peninsula of water we have in Windsor and Essex County. We had a board of directors. We had some non-REALTORS® on this board.

We basically went and marketed the GTA area, Vancouver, the West Coast. It basically was to bring retirees here. When we started, we had some naysayers that were like, "Why do we want people to come here and just come here to not have any money and pass away," kind of thing. It's a reality. It was a reality. Those were conversations and fill up our hospitals. That is not what transpired. We actually did multiple trade shows in Toronto. We ended up having some ambassadors that moved from Etobicoke or Don Valley.

One in particular, she moved to Boblo Island. She said she ended up being an ambassador for us. She would speak and say, "I was able to retire 10 years earlier. I don't have the stress anymore, the traffic." It was a very, very, very well-laid-out plan. We had that board for 10 years, and then it just started happening naturally. We disbanded the not-for-profit organization. That was a huge undertaking. Our members contributed hundreds of thousands to that.

Shaun: It's amazing. That checks so many boxes when it comes to community building. There is the promotion of your area, obviously, and also challenging members and the entire association to be like, "Let's think way outside the box. Let's think differently about how we do business in this whole situation." Clearly, there's a reason why you are where you are. It's infectious, your passion and your drive, and how you see it. How do you keep motivated? How does one keep motivated in this industry? Specifically, how do you keep motivated?

Krista: I absolutely love what I do. I absolutely love our community. I love serving our REALTORS®. I love providing excellent service to them. That's what I strive for. That's what my team strives for. I don't think there's any more than that. I just have a passion for it. I love what I do.

Shaun: Yes, it feeds you.

Krista: It does. I want to be here another 15 years, and people think I'm crazy.

Shaun: Right.

Krista: Imagine that, being here for 50 years.

Shaun: I can. I can imagine it. You're 26 years old. I get it, obviously.

Shaun: You got a lot of life left in you.

Krista: I got a lot. God willing, I do.

Shaun: That's amazing. One of the things that I think is important in all of this as well, we talked about relationships. We talked about leadership in general. You also touched on new government. There's always new governments. You've been at it long enough now where there's new administrations coming in, new policies coming in. How important is the relationship between government and, obviously, the association? What kind of things do you do to improve that relationship, regardless of political strife? It's not even about that. It's about just advocacy in general.

Krista: Obviously, you have to have that rapport with your own local MPPs, MPs, as well as federally and provincially lobbying. It's so important. It's important to the consumer. A lot of the REALTORS® that volunteer, there's usually 500 people, REALTORS®, and EOs, CEOs at our PAC Days. They're there lobbying on behalf of the consumer. Make no mistake about it. The government sometimes comes up with ideas, but doesn't really think them through.

Then we have to lobby to say, "This is not going to work and this is why," or, "We could do this better." When you lobby with the government, you've got to think of these volunteers, volunteer REALTORS®, hundreds of them. You're not lobbying for one year. Sometimes it takes seven to 10 years for something to get past that you've been working on. That's a huge contribution on behalf of the public that REALTORS® do. They don't see that.

Shaun: No, not aware, not as aware as they probably should be, but that's what these conversations are about, right?

Krista: Yes. Yes, absolutely.

Shaun: Getting it out there. Well, listen, Krista, I'm so impressed and so thankful to have met you and talked to you, not just in the industry, but as a person. I think it's amazing. It's inspiring. When you say you want to be at this for another 15 years, you'll make it to 50 years in the industry, what are you most excited about, about the future of the industry?

Krista: I'm excited and nervous. It's a twofold, right?

Shaun: Sure.

Krista: Nobody knows what's ever going to get thrown at you. Like I said, government makes changes all the time. I just hope that whatever comes the next decade, I hope that it's beneficial to our REALTORS® family. I hope it's beneficial to the community. If it's not, then we work hard to make sure it does.

Shaun: Yes, and is there something you're excited about?

Krista: I'm excited to see where the industry goes in general. Like I said, it's always changing. Change is not always bad. Change can be great.

Shaun: Sure.

Krista: It's just all in how we embrace it and how we put it out to our members.

Shaun: I'm hearing versatile.

Krista: Versatile.

Shaun: I'm hearing you being versatile. It's so funny. I was doing the New Year's Eve special, the Y2K year. Remember that?

Krista: Yes.

Shaun: Do you remember that?

Krista: Yes.

Shaun: The turn of the century was happening first in North America in St. John's, Newfoundland, where I was. I was hosting from the waterfront in St. John's, Newfoundland. I was the first person. It was going to go global to me. We were getting ready to count it down. People were like, "10, 9, 8, 7," and then there was a stop. It was like, "What? What happened?"

Oh, they were off by two minutes. I was like, "Wait a minute. Isn't this the most important countdown of the year?" Then my producer said, and this is where I'm going with this, but he said, "Shaun, buddy, excellence through flexibility is what I say." I'm like, "There it is. There it is right there." That sounds a lot like what you're talking about. Excellence through flexibility, being versatile.

Krista: That's an awesome comment.

Shaun: It's great. I love that. Krista, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation.

Krista: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Shaun: Congratulations.

Krista: Thank you.

Shaun: Krista Gionet, a boss, a boss, and I love that. A true leader. That conversation was so enlightening for me. I took a lot from that. One of the insights for me was how important that relationship between the associations and the boards are with the REALTORS® on the ground. I think another takeaway is, REALTORS®, you got to start big-upping yourselves, not just for your sales and for the balance sheet. I'm talking for all that you do as community leaders. I think that's such an amazing thing that maybe you don't get enough credit for.

That's why we're here. We're having these conversations with great leaders like Krista Gionet. She is so deserving of this year's AEN Award of Excellence. This year's award is sponsored by REAL TIME, which I love. Guys, if you enjoyed today's conversation, I know you did, please get out there. Share it. Spread it. You can find it on all your favorite podcast platforms. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA, and production brought to you by Alphabet® Creative. Thanks for joining me today on REAL TIME. My name is Shaun Majumder, and we'll see you next time on REAL TIME.

Shaun: That would–

Daughter: It’s not out there.

Shaun: What's that?

Daughter: The dolls are not out there.

Shaun: No, they're right there. They're right here on the table, so take those back to Mama.

Daughter: No, I'm not going anywhere.

Krista: She told you.

Shaun: She's the boss baby. I don't mind the boss baby.

View Details

Home inspections might be optional, but the peace of mind they can bring by saving both buyers and sellers from unexpected expenses and headaches down the line makes them worth doing. As REALTORS®, you know there are times when inspections might slow the process or seem less-than-necessary at first glance, so, it’s important to know what red flags to look for and be able to advise your clients about bringing in an inspector.

On the latest episode of the REAL TIME podcast, certified home inspector Victoria Ballantine joins host Shaun Majumder to reinforce the value of a home inspection not only when you’re buying or selling, but even before you list a home. Why? Well, you’ll have to listen to find out.

Learn more about Victoria Ballantine and her home inspection process at AllegiantInspections.ca.

Transcript

Shaun Majumder: When I say unfinished basements, how do you react?

Victoria Ballantine: I find some of the worst things on new builds. Water is the enemy.

Shaun: Water is the enemy.

Shaun: Home inspections are a crucial part of the buying and selling process. They can reveal hidden issues with the home. They could save money. They ensure safety, which gives buyers and sellers that extra peace of mind. REALTORS®, it's important to really understand what these inspections cover so that they can guide their clients through this complicated process.

Today, we're being joined by the one and only Victoria Ballantine. When I say one and only, I mean it because she is the one and only female home inspector in all of BC's Lower Mainland. She’s got 25 years of construction experience. Today, she's going to talk to us about the process, the ins and outs of home inspections, some of her wild discoveries, and how to work well with an inspector through this crazy process. I think you're going to really like it. It's so much fun. Let's get to it. This is great. Victoria, welcome to REAL TIME. How are you doing?

Victoria: Excellent. Thank you for having me.

Shaun: This is so cool. Now, listen, being the only female home inspector in all of Lower Mainland BC, it sounds like you should have a trophy, a plaque. You should have a statue. Is this kind of a big deal? Are there no other female home inspectors?

Victoria: If you want to take a ferry for quite a fair ride over to Vancouver Island, there are some excellent female home inspectors there. If you want to go way far away into wine country, there's also some awesome women up there. Everywhere else down here in this corner of the planet, I am the only one. I've been saying that I deserve statues, but so far, no one–

Shaun: I think so.

Victoria: At least I get a Victoria Day long weekend.

Shaun: Exactly. Dedicated just to you.

Victoria: Just me.

Shaun: I love that. No, I think that's amazing, because when you think about home inspectors, I've seen a lot of them, and none of them are like you. I always wonder, what does it take to become a home inspector? You've got 25 years of experience in the construction industry, which is an amazing accomplishment there. To go from just working in construction to becoming a home inspector, what does that take in Canada?

Victoria: It's different depending where you live. BC and Alberta are the only two provinces where a license is required to call yourself a home inspector. We are licensed under Consumer Protection BC. We have to uphold certain standards, including the amounts of insurance for errors and omissions that we carry. We have standards that we have to adhere to for report writing.

Basically, it comes down to about a year and a half of training that we have to take, which includes 50 to 100 hours of field training and then courses in absolutely every part of a home that you could imagine, which I thought I would know more about having owned and operated a construction company for residential homes for years. Then you realize that you sub a lot of stuff out. I had to learn everything about electrical, plumbing, roofing, foundations, exterior cladding. You name it. I had to learn it.

Shaun: Right. Before, when you were running your company, tell me about that transition. What were your priorities when you were running this company? Then how has that shifted to becoming an actual inspector?

Victoria: We were, I don't want to say, perfectionists, but those were the standards that we aimed for.

Shaun: That's good.

Victoria: Yes, it's impossible to achieve, but you always want to do your best. I always like to explain to people that there's building code and then there's best practices. Building code is the bare minimum you're allowed to get away with, and best practices are best practices. There's better ways of doing things that will make your value better. It'll last longer. It'll look nicer.

Shaun: That's going above and beyond.

Victoria: Yes, and that's what we did. Now that I'm a home inspector, that's also what I adhere to: going above and beyond.

Shaun: It sounds like you come with that built-in set of values, that certain level of expertise that you put upon yourself. Are all inspectors like that, or do you think that that is something that you bring uniquely to what you do now?

Victoria: I highly doubt that every inspector is like that, and I'm sure I'm not the only person that is like that. It's a personality thing. I am a firm believer in "Don't bother. No half-assing. If you're going to go in, you do your best and try your hardest at everything.” That's how I run my business.

Shaun: Right. That's amazing. When I heard all of the things that you had to learn, I'm sure you were great at administrative, and you understood broadly about construction and home-building, and all the permitting and all the rest. Of all those skills now that you had to learn and now that you're an inspector, what were your favorite, what were your most challenging to digest and understand, and where do you like to put yourself? Are you an expert in any one of those things?

Victoria: I am not an expert in any one of those things. I like to explain that I am like a GP, your doctor. You're going to go to your doctor for broad-stroke things. They're going to say, "Yes, that's something wrong with you, but you need a specialist." That's what I will do, too. I will come in and say, "Oh, boy, this electrical panel is a mess. This shouldn't be this way. This shouldn't be that way. You absolutely need to speak to an electrician about how to move forward with this."

Shaun: As a general practitioner, are there some of the skills that you really enjoy just as a person, as Victoria, like digging into and wanting to learn more about? I know generally you have to know everything, but where are your favorites?

Victoria: This is going to sound odd, but I would say people management skills are my favorite. I really love working with my clients. I love learning. I don't appreciate school as much. The value of learning, I absolutely love, learning new and interesting things. I just try and keep on top of what's happening, like things that maybe other inspectors don't know.

It's not as much a fact as me keeping in contact with insurance brokers and finding out what's coming down the pipe for insurance companies, being able to tell my client things like that. "They might not cover you in the near future for this. This is what I've heard. It shouldn't affect what you're doing right this second, but just know it might affect you in the future."

Shaun: Victoria, when you're talking about people management, human beings, they're very hard to manage. Who are you talking about? Are you talking about clients? Are you talking about builders? Tell me more about that, like which people?

Victoria: In my past, I have been the manager for my son's hockey team for many years. Quite frankly, managing the parents was much harder than managing the team itself.

Shaun: Hockey parents, yes, they can be a bit much.

Victoria: Yes, especially when it's a house. I actually love helping my clients, making them feel really comfortable, making them know that somebody's in their corner, no matter when. I will answer questions before I do the inspection. I will answer questions during the inspection. I will answer questions a year after. Years after the inspections, I'm there.

Shaun: Even after?

Victoria: Oh, yes, absolutely.

Shaun: How so?

Victoria: If somebody wants to call me up 10 years from now and say, "Listen, that house that you inspected, I don't know if you remember, had this, and now this is happening," I'm happy to walk them through any questions that they might need answered to figure out what to do about it. If it's a completely different house, I'm still happy to answer questions.

If they've got a water stain on your ceiling, I can help them figure out, "Could it be coming from a bathroom upstairs? Could it be coming from the roof?" by just asking the right questions so that they are able to figure out who they need to call. Do they need to call a plumber? Do they need to call a roofer? I always tell people that I am happy to answer questions from my couch till the cows come home. The second I have to leave to go to site, that's when I charge you.

Shaun: Right. You mentioned about managing your son's hockey team. You have a son. You're a mama bear. It sounds very much like the instincts of a mama bear with everything you do, because you're taking care of everybody that you come in contact with.

Victoria: It is. It really is. I also love inspiring people. I just want to make people feel really good about what they're doing.

Shaun: I love that. Oh my gosh, that warms my heart. At REAL TIME, we want to warm people's heart on REAL TIME as well. That's so great to know that that is a home inspector, because I've had home inspectors and examples of things where I walked away. Look, it's a very tense situation sometimes. You have an inspector. Either they're walking through a house that you're about to buy. You're like, "Oh, what are they going to find?"

I just sold my house in LA, and we didn't do any kind of pre-inspection before we listed, which, looking back now, is probably a mistake. They were walking through, and they found stuff that I could not have even imagined, and it's quite something. The fact that what you bring is this idea of caring and compassion to the whole process, that sounds like an amazing thing. Good on you.

Victoria: Thank you.

Shaun: In terms of the inspector's relationship with REALTORS®, what do inspectors bring to REALTORS®? What value do inspectors bring to REALTORS® and buyers, and sellers? Specifically, let's start with REALTORS®.

Victoria: Well, we are definitely a buffer, so they can actually not be the person that's on the hook if something goes terribly wrong. Number two, we are the people there that have the answers to all of these questions about the home that a REALTOR® might not have or know, but needs to know for their client's best interest. When you mentioned earlier about the pre-listing inspection, I do those for REALTORS® as well, who pay me themselves to come and look at a home before they put it on the market so that they are fully educated on what is going on with the house so that when other inspectors show up on behalf of clients who might be purchasing the house, they're not going to find any surprises and have to renegotiate price and stuff like that.

If they already know that the house needs a new roof or there's a crack in the foundation, they can price it accordingly. They can tell potential buyers, "Listen, this is the lay of the land. I'm aware. The price is according. Take it or leave it."

Shaun: Would you say it's in a REALTOR®'s best interest to go that extra mile, pay for that pre-inspection, or is that usually on the buyer or seller?

Victoria: Honestly, it really depends on the state of the market. When it is crazy here in Vancouver and people are throwing multiple, like 13 offers at a home and putting more money than it's being asked for, there's really no point in doing an inspection beforehand because it's not going to affect anything at all. When the market is normal and stabilized, then it's very beneficial. I actually worked for a REALTOR® who I found a leak, and I discovered it was going through all three levels of the home.

Shaun: Ooh, water.

Victoria: They had made arrangements to have it fixed, but they were already aware that the ceiling in the bottom bathroom was completely waterlogged, and you can see it's stained. They made that known to the potential buyers. The potential buyers had a home inspector come in, who ended up punching a hole through the entire roof or ceiling.

Shaun: Did it just gush out? Was there water up there standing?

Victoria: No, because it had already been stopped-

Shaun: Oh, I see.

Victoria: -but they hadn't fixed the drywall yet.

Shaun: Right.

Victoria: That inspector ended up being on the hook because it was already a latent defect that had been established and mentioned, and he didn't take undue care in dealing with it. My REALTOR® was off the hook, having to redrywall.

Shaun: Oh, that's good. When you talk about water, talk about drywall, when you're looking at a house, you're walking through, take me through a checklist of some of the things that you look for. Are they in any particular order, or how do you operate that way? What are the items you're looking for?

Victoria: Well, most inspectors that I know have a system. I always start on the outside of the house. I always go one way around the house and then go the other way around the house, because sometimes you miss things that are at different angles.

Shaun: Yes. What are you looking for? What are you looking for? What's the thing you're looking for on the outside of the house?

Victoria: Well, in here, the Wet Coast, I am looking for water damage, pretty much exclusively, or potential things that could allow water ingress to happen. There are so many of them, and most of them are quite easy to fix for a few bucks and prevent a huge catastrophe of expenses. I love to point all of these little things out that you're going to find on pretty much any home, whether it's new or a hundred years old.

Then, of course, I'm looking for existing damage, any water stains, especially on stucco. We had the whole leaky condo crisis out here in the '80s because all the developers started building in the California style of stucco and no overhangs. That was a disaster because there was different codes back then. We didn't have to have a rainscreen. Now we are required to have water be able to escape if it does get back behind the exterior cladding of a house. That makes a huge difference. I'm looking at all different eras of housing and looking for problems like that, up to the roof. I look at that.

Shaun: Are you climbing up on the roof, or are you droning it nowadays?

Victoria: My insurance doesn't cover drones, actually, ironically enough, but no, I go on the roof. There's exceptions. If it's a really steep pitch, I'm not going to go on it. If it's three stories in the air, I'm also not going to go on it. I will do whatever I can to get as close to it as possible. I have binoculars. I will look down on roofs from upper stories. There's lots of ways of going around it. For me, the very last place I go is generally the attic, and that is the best place, in my opinion, to see what's going on with the roof because you can see any water that's coming in there.

Shaun: It's all about water. We need it, but we don't love it in houses.

Victoria: No. No. Water is the enemy.

Shaun: Water is the enemy. That's awesome. You're looking at the roof. You're looking at outside, water damage, potential Band-Aids. How do you control your emotions when you're walking around the house, and you look down and you see somebody who, obviously, they were like, "Dude, we got to finish this build. Let's just patch it up with X, Y, and Z and get out of here." How many times do you see that?

Victoria: I see it a lot, actually, especially on new builds. There's a product called Dimple Mat, and it goes on the exterior of foundations. It prevents water pressure from building up against the concrete foundation. Concrete's porous. It absorbs water, albeit more slowly than other products. This is one of the ways of preventing that from happening. However, it is supposed to be buried. You're not allowed to see it because the building product manufacturers, none of them that I know of, allow for it to be exposed to UV for longer than six months.

Some of them are shorter. That includes the time it's sitting on site waiting to be installed. It just degrades really, really quickly, and it cracks. Then you have something that's going to hold water against your foundation when it funnels down into there. I see that all the time. I've actually been on site arguing with a builder about it, who's trying to tell my clients that, "No, no, the city of Vancouver told me I had to have this exposed." I'm like, "Sorry, brother, but I just built a house several years ago, like three blocks from here, and I can tell you they did not require me to do that."

Shaun: Right. Wow, that must be challenging, especially when you're in front of the client. Do you generally pull the builder aside? You have to, I guess, right?

Victoria: I don't. I don't pull them aside. I'm one of those people that will state my point and not explicitly argue the fact after that. You can take it or leave it. "This is what I have to say on it." Then I will speak to my clients later when they're not around. In that case, I actually went and researched these building products, that specific one, because you can see the name on it, and sent them like, "Here's what they have to say about this."

Shaun: Well, that's great.

Victoria: Which is above and beyond what I need to do as a home inspector, but they need to know this.

Shaun: You're a mama bird. You're a mama bird. You got to do this. I love it. Then take me inside. What are you doing inside? Talk to me through the inside of the house.

Victoria: I would also like to state on the outside that, especially here, where we have a lot of slopes and hills, the way that the landscaping directs water towards or away the house is very, very important. I'm always commenting on that also.

Shaun: Nice.

Victoria: Inside the house, I tend to walk in the front door and go counterclockwise to all of the rooms on that level, one at a time. I check all the electrical. I should say I don't do any invasive testing, so I'm not opening up any walls. I do open up panels if they're not painted shut. Electrical panels, I do open if they're painted shut. I have an X-ACTO knife for that. Yes, I check all exposed plumbing.

Technically, I tell people that I don't do appliances because I don't want to be on the hook for a Wolf range that's thousands and thousands of dollars, and I'm only charging a few hundred to do an inspection. I do check sort of for appliances. I make sure that all the water appliances are not leaking. I make sure that everything turns on and off and functions properly. I do run the dishwasher, and I run the washing machine and dryer just to make sure that's all good. I run every faucet that you could possibly find in a home. I check all of the outlets. I have a little special tool that I can stick inside each receptacle and make sure it's wired correctly.

Shaun: That's cool. Yes, no, it sounds pretty extensive and par for the course. In terms of when you're going through with a client, some of this stuff can be very complicated and confusing. "Yes, we need a TR73 over here. You're missing some sump pumps that need some extra XR7s." You know what I mean? I'm like, "Oh, that doesn't sound good. Is that something I should worry about?" How technical are you with these conversations? Tell me how you communicate with your clients about that.

Victoria: Industry jargon is an absolute no-no. You never want to come across as talking down to people. There's no point in telling them something they don't understand. I really try and give my clients information in a way that is easy to understand and not condescending. There's no mansplaining from me. I want my clients to feel really comfortable and ask questions. So many clients feel like they're not going to ask a question because they feel like it's a stupid question, and they don't want to feel stupid. Nobody does. There is no stupid questions. I really want my clients to feel that. There's no stupid questions except the questions you don't ask. That's what I'm here for. I'm here to answer questions.

Shaun: That's great.

Victoria: That's actually a running theme on my Google Reviews is how great I was at explaining things. The example that I often use is GFCIs. GFCIs are Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters. They are the little receptacles that you find very often in your bathroom that have the button that you can push to test and reset. When I say, "Your kitchen needs GFCIs," people will look at me like, "What?"

I always ask, "Okay, so your kitchen here needs a GFCI. Do you know what a GFCI is?" 99% of the time, they're like, "No," and I'll explain, "Okay, so do you have this in your bathroom of your house where you currently live?" They all say, "Yes." I say, "Okay, that's a ground fault circuit interrupter. What it does is if it is required anywhere close to within about six feet of a water source, what it does is if you happen to be in contact with anything wet while you're holding an appliance and using it, if there's a short in the appliance and you don't have this protection in place, you will become electrocuted, and you could possibly die.

If you do have these protections in there, it will sense that surge and instantly shut down. You will have a new hairdo and you will hurt for a moment, but you will be completely fine otherwise." Putting that element of comedy in there makes people feel more comfortable, and yet at the same time, now they 100% understand what I'm saying.

Shaun: Right. That's how you explain it to them. You use humor. It breaks down barriers. I know this from making a living in doing this. It does work. I think that's really, really great, especially in those, it's high-stress situations. "What's wrong with my house?" or "What's wrong with this house I'm about to buy?" In terms of you working with REALTORS®, this is the portion of the podcast that I like to call misconceptions about inspections. What are some big misconceptions about inspections that either REALTORS® have or even the buyers and sellers?

Victoria: I don't think REALTORS®– I'm not sure about the rest of Canada, where it might be very different, the scope of what you get from each inspector. Here, I think they're very educated. They know exactly what to expect. There's no surprises there.

Shaun: Got you.

Victoria: Clients very often don't have any idea what to expect. I have a very, very thorough contract that I give to them that explains, in detail, every exact thing that I do or don't do. People don't generally read it.

Shaun: Yes, I was going to say it's a great thing to read. "Yes, I'm going to spend some time with this contract while my two kids are burning toast and flipping and painting the wall that shouldn't be painted. Let me just take some time to read some legal jargon." How do you manage those expectations?

Victoria: A lot of the time, when people are shopping for inspectors, that's when they ask questions about what I do or don't do. I have to make it very clear that I do not do invasive testing. I am not going to be cutting a hole in your wall to see if there's mold behind it. I don't do mold testing. I don't do asbestos testing. I do everything else around it. I will point out things that could possibly contain asbestos or are evidence of possible mold problems, or could cause possible mold problems.

I will tell you what to do about that. I will tell you how to prevent it from happening in the future. I will send you to a specialist because you have to be licensed now to do mold testing and to do asbestos testing.

Shaun: Right. It sounds like your approach of saying straight up front, "I'm a general practitioner," do you use that as the introduction to things? Because I think that would be very helpful for me anyways. If I heard that right out of the gates, then I know my expectation of what this whole process is going to be like.

Victoria: Yes, that's very true. I really have to explain to people like, "I know a lot about everything; I don't know everything about anything."

Shaun: Right. Yes, I think that's fair. It is nice to have that inspector come in for that first pass, generally speaking. Talk to me about "When do inspections take place in relation to offers closing?" When do inspections take place? Is there some limited time frame that they have to take place in?

Victoria: It really depends. I do inspections for people before they put offers in, just so they can go in subject-free. I do inspections for people after they put offers in. I do inspections for people before they list a house. I do inspections for people that have lived in a house for years and would just like to know what's going on with their house. I do inspections for people that are doing occupancy walkthroughs for their new builds or condos. Yes, I do the same inspection all the time. It's just called something else whenever I do it. It's the time that changes the name, not the actual inspection itself.

Shaun: Yes. You have your "This is what we do. This is the inspection. When and for what purpose is the difference between the two?

Victoria: Exactly?

Shaun: Okay, so then tell me about– you mentioned new construction. I would imagine that you don't really need too much of an inspection for new construction. Is that a misconception of inspections?

Victoria: Thank you for asking, Shaun. That is a huge misconception.

Shaun: Really?

Victoria: Huge, yes. I find some of the worst things on new builds. Very often, it could be a less-than-reputable builder, but very often, it just comes down to the fact that there's huge trade shortages here right now. There's not enough people to do the work. Very often, someone that doesn't know what they're doing entirely and isn't the best at their job comes in and does things. I find less-than-optimal work frequently.

Shaun: I see. Do you think that's because of strictly that, "Oh, these guys are unskilled or girls," or is it also a thing of just shifting standards and changing technologies, et cetera?

Victoria: I think it's a little bit of everything, but I did read an article a while back that was talking about how the trades industry is really suffering all across the gamut of different trades because you've had these older gentlemen, and I will say gentlemen because they were all older gentlemen, who were passing their knowledge down to the people underneath them as they were training them.

The whole baby boomer generation is retiring and getting out of business. That has collapsed the number of people with this knowledge down to a lower level of fewer people that know this knowledge. Fewer people are able to send this knowledge off to fewer people. It's just going downwards.

Shaun: Sure. In terms of the standards that people are using now, as builders go, have you felt–

Victoria: The standards have gone up because of code.

Shaun: The standards have gone up. Right.

Victoria: Yes, but that doesn't mean that the work doing them has gone up.

Shaun: I see.

Victoria: Everybody's overworked, too, including municipal inspectors.

Shaun: Right. You are one of how many, would you say, in the Lower Mainland, speaking of overworked, et cetera?

Victoria: How many inspectors there are?

Shaun: Yes, I was curious about in your immediate, in your district, in your region, how many inspectors are there?

Victoria: There's hundreds. I honestly don't know, but I do know that I just heard the other day there was 400 and something in the province. I would have to guess that the majority of them are in the Lower Mainland.

Shaun: Yes. Being in a place like Urban Vancouver and area, I would imagine there's a higher density, but you, as a person, do you think that that is the best place to be? Are there more opportunities as an inspector in suburban and even rural areas? This is just like a side question that I'm curious about.

Victoria: I would say that there's no chance I'm moving anywhere else. I love it here. I feel like I could go somewhere else in Canada and probably do really well. In rural areas, there's fewer. There's also a whole different set of things to deal with that I am not prepared to deal with. For example, septic fields. I don't touch septic fields.

Shaun: Why not?

Victoria: I have no need to, really.

Shaun: It's the best.

Victoria: I don't come across them very often. Once you go out far enough into farmland, you will find them on a regular basis. If you go over to Vancouver Island, you will find them on a regular basis. It's just not something that I need to know. I focus on things I do need to know.

Shaun: Right. Talk to me a bit about warranties, because I know that's something with CMHC, two, five, and 10-year warranties. What do and how do inspectors help identify those things that need to stay in place for the warranty to–

Victoria: The two, five, 10 warranty is two years on materials, five years on building envelope, and 10 years on structure. Your builder is required to fix things. When I come in, initially, I will present my report to my clients, and they will have a list of things on a new build that they can send off to their developer and a checklist for him. "Here, you need to address these things."

It's also a really great idea to have an inspection done before the anniversary dates come, so before the two-year mark, before the five-year mark, and before the 10-year mark, so that if there is anything that you want to make a claim, you have the opportunity to do that. You don't want to find out something the day after the warranty expires, and you're completely unable to do anything about it. Inspections aren't expensive. It's worth every penny to have somebody come in and do this.

Shaun: For example, what would be something that maybe you'd find in a new construction that can void the warranty?

Victoria: Well, nothing's going to void the warranty, but if it's a building envelope thing, that encompasses the roof, it encompasses the windows, the doors, the exterior, anything going into the house. Being as water is the enemy, you want to find out if there's any leakage or anything that has been installed incorrectly that is causing leakage or anything of that manner. Having somebody come in and check that for you is a no-brainer, in my mind.

Shaun: A rusty electric panel?

Victoria: Yes, it was a new build that I found an electrical issue with the rusty panel. It was in a brand-new, beautiful condo that was a high-rise. It was right on one of the mid-floors, and there was no power to one of the bedrooms. When I opened up the electrical panel, I found out why. Because it had switched off, out of safety reasons, because there was a leak coming from somewhere into the electrical panel.

It was all rusty. It's amazing that only that one circuit breaker had actually tripped. The problem with this is that my clients had already purchased this. It was pre-bought before it was built. They just wanted me to come in and do an inspection. I did and found this. Because the water's in there, damaging the electrical panel, they cannot live there until it's fixed.

You cannot fix it until you figure out the source of the leak. It could be plumbing from the floor above. It could be from any floor above. It could be from the roof coming down, just from gravity. It's a big deal because having to figure that out could take a while.

Shaun: Yes, and is that on the developer to find these answers?

Victoria: Yes, it would be on the developer. Unfortunately for my clients, it's on the developer, but they're just required to fix it. There's no time frame.

Shaun: I see. That can be really frustrating for a buyer.

Victoria: Yes.

Shaun: Oh, wow, man, that's something there. I don't know how I'd handle that. The key is that you found it. That's really, really great.

Victoria: I did. I wouldn't want them to have been living there and all of a sudden have this happen to them. It's very dangerous.

Shaun: I'm about to sell my house, and I know I've got some issues, but are DIY fixes probably going to cut it?

Victoria: It depends what it is. If you want to patch a hole in your own drywall, be my guest. It might not look pretty, but it's not going to be a safety concern.

Shaun: Right.

Victoria: If it's electrical or plumbing, chances are that you are not going to be covered under insurance if anything happens.

Shaun: Right.

Victoria: That's actually one of the things that I look for a lot because there's a lot of people, not so many anymore, but there have been in the past, people that consider themselves handy, and they will do electrical fixes or all kinds of things that are safety concerns that they might not even be aware of or tenants, tenants especially. If you're a landlord and you have tenants, tenants seem to very often not want their rent raised for some crazy reason.

They will, very often, fix things themselves so that they're not bothering the landlord. The landlord might not even be aware that this person has done some electrical thing that's going to burn down the house and void insurance. It's good to have me come in for that kind of thing, too.

Shaun: Humans are quirky birds.

Victoria: We are.

Shaun: Victoria, tell me also, what are some other things that are like hidden things that you tend to look for?

Victoria: Well, I wouldn't say hidden things, but there's a bunch of things that I try to educate my clients on and REALTORS® on that they can look for before they pay me to come in. These are things like, this is the most common thing that I'm finding now, full electrical panels. It's not a safety concern, but very pre-'90s buildings were built before our obsession with electronics.

Anything built before then likely isn't going to be able to carry the load. How many of us have lived in pre-'90s homes and had multiple power bars plugged into electrical outlets? Newer ones will have far more electrical outlets on far more breakers in a panel.

Shaun: Sorry. When you say a full electrical panel, tell me about that. What do you mean by a full electrical panel?

Victoria: Full electrical panel means that there is no more empty slots for breakers in the panel. It is chock-a-block full. You cannot add anything more, which means that if you want to put in an EV charger, which is very, very common here in BC, if you want to put in a suite or put in the GFCIs that I spoke about, or AFCIs, which are arc fault interrupters, they're also safety things, you are not going to be able to do that.

Shaun: Do they need to bring a whole added service, like going from a 200 amp or bringing in a 200 amp, or bringing in a–

Victoria: What I would do in this case is I would pull my general practitioner card and say, "You need an electrician to look at that and see what their advice is." Because you might be able to just put in a bigger panel that has more space in it, but you might also need to upgrade to a larger amp, a 200 amp. It depends on what the load is. That's something an electrician can come in and test for.

That's something that you can look at and see yourself without having to open up the actual panel cover yourself. If you're shopping for a home and you're doing a walkthrough, ask where the electrical panel is. Go look at it.

Shaun: Have a look at it.

Victoria: See if it's full.

Shaun: Now, is that something that you would share with your REALTORS®? Is that something REALTORS® should also inform their clients about?

Victoria: Definitely.

Shaun: Yes. It sounds like, too, that would be more in older homes that you might come across this. Tell me about some other things that you may come across or that a buyer or seller should look into before even bringing in an inspector. Especially on the older home side, what things are you seeing now? Because technologies are changing, codes are changing, but there have been houses that have been around for hundreds of years.

Victoria: Yes. If any client has worked with me before, they will get these things learned, and they will know to look for them before they even have to call me for inspection. One of them is, if there's a suite in it, check with the municipality and make sure it's a legal suite. Make sure that any work that has been done to an older home, upgrades have been permitted and closed. Anyone can pull a permit. You need an inspector to sign off on it in order for it to be a closed permit.

That's something you can do for free. Also, depending on when it was, checking for polybutylene piping. That is the very first generation of plastic piping that was put into homes. It was done because the price of copper went through the roof in the '70s. They invented plastic piping, which was a godsend because not only was it cheaper to manufacture, it was also cheaper to install because you didn't have to do and solder an elbow at every single place you wanted to bend the pipe.

You could just bend the pipe to a certain extent, so it's so much faster to install. Then they discovered that it had major problems with corroding from the inside out and leaking. It became one of the largest class action lawsuits in the history of the United States. Being that the United States is so litigious, that was actually saying something. Insurance companies don't want to cover you if you have this. It has a very unique look.

It's difficult to find because most places around here, everything is behind the walls, but there are certain places that you can poke your nose into to have a look for it. I always teach my REALTORS® and my clients where to look for that.

Shaun: What's the difference between PVC and polybutylene?

Victoria: PVC is hard, white plastic. That's the plastic that you very often see for drainage around the exterior, your perimeter drainage. It's hard and white, usually, sometimes black. Polybutylene is gray and has blue writing on it most of the time, and is softer. It's not rigid.

Shaun: I see. Good to know. These are good little details. When I say unfinished basements, how do you react?

Victoria: I love unfinished basements. They're my favorite.

Shaun: Why?

Victoria: Because I can actually see everything.

Shaun: Ah, yes, right.

Victoria: Piping's exposed. Electrical's exposed, foundation's exposed, all of these things that are usually hidden from view. I very often have to write in as a limitation to cover my ass in my reports, "I could not see the foundation." This is how much, generally, I put in. "I could only see 95% of the foundation." I can't be held responsible for anything hidden behind that beautiful, drywall of the lovely basement suite.

Shaun: Right. Tell me about pigtailing. My producer told me about pigtailing. This is generally a family-level podcast. What's pigtailing?

Victoria: Pigtailing, we'll go back to the '70s when copper prices went through the roof. It was so expensive to use copper wiring that everybody changed to aluminum wiring because it was far less inexpensive. Aluminum wiring was great for two seconds until they realized that it actually expands and contracts at a much higher rate than copper does, which means it moves more, which means that every connection where it is joined to a wall switch or an outlet, or a light in your ceiling or in the electrical panel, there's many, many joints of wiring, and all of them would expand and contract and just loosen, and then they're loose.

Then you have arcing, which is an electrical fire concern. Insurance companies do not want you to have this in your house. Most of them will flat out refuse to cover you if you have aluminum wiring, and that, I should say, single-strand aluminum wiring.

Shaun: Right, I knew that.

Victoria: That is where there's one wire.

Shaun: I knew that.

Victoria: Because once you get up to a higher gauge of wire that takes more power, like the service that comes into your house, that is multi-strand, and that can be copper or aluminum. If it's either, it's completely fine. There's no issues at all with the multi-strand because it is not connected to each other in the same way.

Shaun: I see.

Victoria: Just to be clear. People, don't panic if you have aluminum wiring in your home. It's only if you have single-strand aluminum wiring, which is the one wire.

Shaun: Where does the pigtailing come in?

Victoria: Insurance companies would refuse to cover people unless they completely rewired their entire home.

Shaun: Oh, come on.

Victoria: Which is outrageously expensive.

Shaun: Not doing it.

Victoria: There was a go-between where everybody made everybody happy, for a while. Some insurance companies don't even want to cover you for this anymore, but most of them will. What it is is you just have an electrician come in, and they will attach a tiny piece of copper wiring to the ends of every single piece of aluminum wiring and then have that attached to your receptacle, your switch. They're joined together, twisted, and then they have a little plastic mirette cap on top, and it's fine.

Shaun: Pigtail.

Victoria: They base that on pricing of how many you have.

Shaun: Got you.

Shaun: It is a lot cheaper than rewiring your home.

Shaun: Way cheaper.

Victoria: Unless you have an unfinished basement, in which case that makes rewiring anything much, much easier. Also makes re-plumbing for polybutylene piping much, much easier.

Shaun: Right. I remember my house in Newfoundland. I went there and the hot water tank. Talk to me about hot water tanks. Mine was expired.

Victoria: I actually had a hot water tank that went after five months and one day. Then I thought, "Well, that's weird. Why isn't it covered under warranty?" Then I found out, when I became a home inspector, they really don't last for very long. It also depends where you live, how long it lasts. Here in the Lower Mainland, we have amazing water. It's full of minerals. It's really great for our health, but it's not great for our piping.

Copper doesn't last as long here as it lasts everywhere else. It's also not great for our hot water tanks. They only last between eight to 12 years on average here. That's the life expectancy. Insurance companies generally don't want to cover you for damage caused if it is over 10 years old. That's something that's very important to know for my clients. How old is the hot water tank? The seller will always say, "Oh, it's new."

Shaun: "It's fine."

Victoria: We just replaced it eight years ago. That's all perception. What one person considers new is not what insurance companies consider new.

Shaun: Yes, and I had an HVAC system that when we moved in 10 years ago, the inspector was like, "This is on the end of its life." It took us all the way through to the time we sold it. Yes, we gave them credit for that one because she was making some noise by the end of it. She was wheezing. She had bad emphysema. She had some kind of ailment for sure.

Victoria: Very often, you can see that there's issues with it. I'm going to be telling my client, "Okay, this is 10 years old. It's reached its average life expectancy. Your insurance company might have issues with it, but there's no rust. There's no leaking. It looks in good shape." The signs that you often see on a hot water tank that's not happy is not there.

Shaun: Right. What are the consequences if you miss any of these?

Victoria: I'm terrified of missing things because you can be sued, which is another reason why I'm a great buffer in between REALTORS® and homeowners. I have insurance. I've never had to use it, thankfully. Not just for me personally, business-wise, I would be mortified if a client came back to me and was like, "Yes, we found this huge thing that you missed." All my business is word of mouth, so that would just kill me.

Shaun: All it takes is one, right?

Victoria: It's going to end up costing them lots and lots of money, and that's what I'm here for: to prevent them from having to spend lots and lots of money. My passion is educating my clients on little fixes that can improve so they don't have to pay thousands of dollars. If I was to miss something significant, I would lose sleep over that, for sure.

Shaun: A good inspection really serves a lot of purposes, right? It serves protecting the client. There's safety. There's saving money. Am I missing anything?

Victoria: No, I'd say that's one of the things that makes me stand out as an inspector, is that it is my passion to educate my clients on small fixes now, prevent expensive emergencies later. People are less and less handy nowadays. They know less and less about how a home works or how to fix things. My reports, I come in and I make sure they know, "Listen, I am going to find these same things pretty much on any home that you ask me to inspect, so don't panic.

"It doesn't mean it's a bad home. This is your go-to list of how to maintain this house without it being really expensive. Houses are so expensive. Home ownership is outrageous, especially here, and you can't afford this $50,000 surprise. Here's a $25 fix to help prevent that," and that's what I love doing is helping my clients understand these things.

Shaun: What would you say is the one thing or important message that you would have for REALTORS® across Canada right now who are watching? What is the one thing from inspector to REALTOR®, what would you like to say to them right now?

Victoria: Please get new builds inspected.

Shaun: Right, are people skipping new builds' inspections?

Victoria: Yes, they are, because it's a new build, and much is people are trusting. We all think the world's going to hell, but generally, deep down, we're all trusting, and if it's a new build, you just assume, "Okay, well, it's been inspected by the municipal inspectors. It's new. There shouldn't be anything wrong with it," and often there is.

Shaun: Victoria, this has been so incredibly insightful, not just for me as a buyer and seller, but I think for REALTORS® as well. This is going to be very insightful to hear, and I think we need to start a GoFundMe to get your statue built in the Lower Mainland. Huge, big, strong Victoria statue, not in Victoria, on the Lower Mainland. What do you think?

Victoria: I am all over it. You go for it. It's one of the most worthy causes out there, for sure.

Shaun: I think so. I think so, and then I'll hire an inspector to make sure it's going to stay up forever. Thank you so much, Victoria. This has been such a great conversation.

Victoria: Thank you so much for having me. I loved it.

Shaun: All the best. Huge thank you to Victoria for her awesome knowledge and her cool stories. My takeaway from this whole conversation is that home inspectors are not just about finding things wrong with a house; as it turns out, they're a powerful tool to protect clients in this crazy buying and selling experience. It's really, really great to hear from Victoria, so a big thank you again to Victoria. That was awesome.

Guys, if you liked today's episode, be sure to go to your favorite podcast platform, like, subscribe, share this with as many people as you can. Of course, it's brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA, and produced by Alphabet® Creative. My name is Shaun Majumder. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. I know I did. We'll see you next time on REAL TIME.

Victoria: Shaun, you've got to have your mug handy.

Shaun: Oh, dude, they didn't send me one. I got to go get one.

Victoria: What?

Shaun: I want one with my face on it.

Victoria: What?

Shaun: I want my face now that I'm the host. I want to have REAL TIME.

Victoria: I want one with your face on it. You've a good face.

Shaun: It's got to go be super cheesy. It's got to go be.

View Details

The demand for greener homes and communities is growing in Canada, but there are still a lot of questions about how we can embrace sustainability in real estate at the personal, professional, and industrial levels.

Mark Holland, principal at Westplan Consulting Group and a professor at Vancouver Island University, shares insights on how REALTORS® can become leaders in real estate’s green future, the impacts of climate change within our communities, sustainable home building practices, and sustainable innovations on the horizon.

Want to learn more? CREA’S Canadian Certified Green Representative (CCGR) certification is now available for REALTORS®.

Transcript

Mark Holland: This is a good program. This will withstand the common-sense test.

Shaun Majumder: Hey, Mark, do you want to buy a tube TV?

Shaun: At this point, it's nearly impossible to ignore climate change and its effects on our lives. We all have a responsibility to minimize our footprint where we can, but it's increasingly important to protect your home for safety, for comfort, and your wallet. For REALTORS®, a big part of that is really and truly understanding sustainable housing and environmentally conscious building practices, and then being able to explain the importance of these things to your client. On today's show, we're being joined by Mark Holland, principal at Westplan Consulting Group. He's a professor at Vancouver Island University and a LEED-accredited professional.

Today, I'm going to be asking him a ton of questions about green building and sustainability, and how it affects all of our communities. As a bonus, we're going to be throwing in a couple of extra questions from REALTORS® just like you. It's a great episode. I can't wait to get started. Why wait? Mark, wow. Mark, it's a real pleasure to meet you. I'm really excited to talk to you today. I noticed you have some beautiful Indigenous arts in the background there on your wall. I decided, in honour of you and where you are right now on the West Coast, what do you think of my shirt?

Mark: I love your shirt, Shaun. It's a real honour to be here with you and, yes, to be coming from the West Coast. We're really fortunate.

It's an interesting history here on the West Coast. We have some of the highest density of First Nations in the entire country. Almost half of the First Nations of the country are out here because food supplies historically were so dense and so rich. There was a very rich culture that developed. My house is full of art like your T-shirt and mask, et cetera. It's a real privilege to be able to live out here. I'm living in the lands of the Lekwungen-speaking peoples, the Esquimalt, the Songhees, and the W̱SÁNEĆ here as I come to you in this discussion.

Shaun: I think it's totally apropos. Today, we are talking about sustainable design, sustainable real estate. It's so interesting because everybody wants it. They're not quite sure what it is. The technology is always changing. People always want it. Then, sometimes it can be controversial about why. Do we need green spaces? Do we need green tech? Do we need green-- I'm excited to talk to you today about it. Tell me a bit about, first of all, your background, and also give us the broad strokes about what is sustainable design when we're talking about real estate, individual homes, et cetera.

Mark: Yes, thanks, Shaun. It's a very interesting field. I've had the privilege of being part of it for a few decades. My career started in my education at the University of BC, where I had the privilege to study under William Rees, who was one of the authors of the idea of the ecological footprint and the impact that we all have in our lifestyles globally. I had the privilege of getting involved as a planner in the City of Vancouver very early in my career, as we worked on what many folks here in Canada have visited as the Olympic Village there, which was ultimately deemed by the U.S. Green Building Council to be, the greenest neighborhood in the world at the time when we got it created.

It's been a really interesting path to be part of this conversation coming from a time, I would say, maybe in the early '80s, Shaun, when nobody was paying a lot of attention to this. Greenpeace started in the '70s, and there was some discussion about environment, but what we began to understand was we need to have the environment, our social needs, and our economic needs all considered simultaneously. You can't ignore one of them. You have to look at all of them, because by ignoring one of them, they ultimately begin to fall apart.

Shaun: At that time, would you say that was a huge paradigm shift away from what it previously was in terms of thinking about profits, cheap designs, cheap builds, sourcing materials? Did that spread fast, or was that a hard uphill climb?

Mark: The report from 1987 that the United Nations did, called Our Common Future, pulled together a leading group of world economists, politicians, and scientists, and they said, "Can we keep doing this? What happens if we just keep doing what we've been doing as our population hits seven billion, eight billion, et cetera?" Interestingly, while the environmental movement has claimed the sustainability discussion, it was business people, it was economists that came back, and they were the ones that said, "We need sustainable development. We have to develop, but we need to do it in a way that uses less energy, produces less waste, uses less water, keeps our soils healthy, and things like that."

That was the big movement. You're absolutely right, Shaun, this was a paradigm shift. In about 10 years, between 1887 and 1997, it pretty much took the world by storm. It was fascinating to see all the universities begin to shift, engineering rethinking things, big movement in green buildings, landscape architects revisiting how we were doing our cities, so many different things. We now begun to think differently about them. Most generations of professionals since the late '90s have been taught a different way.

A lot of folks are now looking at it. The thing is that it takes a long time to change buildings. They last 50 to 100 years. Cities last thousands of years. The evolution takes time, but there has been a very, very big change. I think that's what's really exciting to see in the program here that we're talking about today is that the entire real estate industry is now stepping forward to embed that discussion in every thought and every discussion and decision that we have around the homes in which we live.

Shaun: Mark, I'm here now in Nova Scotia. Two or three days ago, it was 10 degrees and I was out running through some grass. Then I woke up this morning, about a foot of snow on the ground. When we talk about climate change and it's having such a massive impact all over the world, this is Nova Scotia, this happens regularly anyways. However, when we think about climate change and the potential hazards, how does all of this affect real estate overall? How is the design world working to handle all this?

Mark: It's a great question, Shaun, because climate change at the beginning of the sustainability discussion was under debate. We still see some debates, but most people don't take them seriously because the science is now many, many decades of patterns to show what's happening. Weather is becoming more unpredictable. With it, is actually some pretty significant impacts on real estate. We're seeing quite a few different areas of response. There's two ways we look at climate change and our communities or our buildings. The first one is maybe the older approach, which we would call it mitigation, which is trying to reduce our climate change emissions so that things don't get much horribly worse over long periods of time.

We're having some very, very good successes in some areas on that one because it essentially means we need to use less energy. We're seeing technology step in to really help us use less energy on many things. Some of the things that we're seeing, making buildings more efficient. We've been talking about this for a long time, but they continue to advance in our ability to do this. That's one of the first things that we're seeing in the climate change response, is use less energy, saves you money as well. That thereby reduces the amount of emissions that we're producing.

The other side, which is increasingly becoming more important, Shaun, in our discussions, is to respond to the changes that are already happening and are inevitable in climate because there's so many of us producing so many emissions for so long that we have changed the chemical makeup of the climate. It is heating a bit more. We do get some greater storms. We get changes in precipitation, flooding, and things like that. What we're seeing in real estate is looking at how we design buildings to withstand major wind storms. Now, living in Nova Scotia, you know all about wind. You guys know wind very, very well.

Here in the West Coast, we get storms, but nothing like the relentless blowing coming off the Atlantic. There's a reason why the Pacific Ocean is called the Pacific. It's a little more peaceful out here. We have big eaves. We get rain all the time. We have big eaves, but we don't get the same storms. Whereas if you built homes in Nova Scotia, historically, like we do here, it'd rip the roof off on any given weekend. We're seeing buildings being much more wind-resistant today. The idea of what we call hurricane clips. These are, like you built a building, you'll know when you put the rafters up against the top of the wall on the top plate. We used to just put them in there and toenail and a couple of nails.

Now we're actually taking steel bands, and we're attaching them together and that creates just a few more screws and a steel band that'll hold that roof from getting ripped off in a much higher storm. Far, far better. That is nothing but good things from that. There's one example. I would say maybe the biggest one we're seeing everywhere is attention to floodplains. Climate change increases the amount of water in the atmosphere. The warm air absorbs more water, and also more is just evaporating off the oceans and is filtering in the air.

We get much bigger storms and then much bigger flooding. Insurance companies are increasingly now getting a bit grumpy about insuring buildings that are in floodplains because you never know when the whole thing is going to come underwater and you're back in there pulling all the drywall off and fixing everything and putting it all back together again. That's expensive. We're seeing municipalities, cities, and insurance companies getting pretty grumpy about developing on floodplains, and where we do have buildings there, and entire cities are. Here on the West Coast, we have Richmond, BC, which is essentially below sea level on any given moment.

Lots of attention to how dykes, pumping, investing in these things in order to make sure that we're not putting our communities at risk. We're seeing new development permit areas around cities where there's a city and a big developed area, and the wind blows across it into a mountain range, or where there's forests. In that interface, because there's lots of sparks and energy and fires going on in communities, if it jumps into the wild area and you get a wind, then you get these huge wildfires that move into the forested areas around there.

We're seeing a lot more attention to wildfire-resistant homes. There's a number of guidelines that people can follow around that. Maybe the other way is renewable energy. We're also seeing folks look at-- Certainly, if you go to Hawaii, you'll see solar cells on just most of the roofs. Many of the roofs have PV arrays because energy is very expensive in Hawaii, and it's sunny all the time. Wherever that combination occurs, we're starting to see a lot of people very interested in getting solar on their buildings.

Shaun: When I'm thinking about all the new builds, obviously, they're being infused with a lot of this new technology. What are some very specific elements in a new build REALTORS® can identify for their clients that can be like, "Hey, this is very thoughtful, what you're getting with this home, X, Y, and Z," whether it be the smart home, the new smart home set up? Is it how people are wiring the buildings now? Are they having a big impact, considering this new climate change reality that we're in? What are some of those elements that REALTORS® can point to for their clients?

Mark: The things that we see the most often, Shaun, that a REALTOR® and a home buyer can look at starts with insulation. Insulation is one of those-- particularly in the attic. Some homes don't have attics, but many do. Depending on the age of that home. I remember one I bought had no insulation in it at all. Okay, we've got a lot. We can make some quick progress here. Sometimes there's four to six inches. An ideal insulation that is easy for a homeowner to put in or a contractor to put in costs very little is to upgrade your insulation in your attic to R50. That's about 12 inches. Batts of insulation often come in six inches. That's just two layers up there. That's the thickness.

We use the word R-value because it's called resistance. You don't want heat to move from one area to another area. You want to keep them separate. That's R-value. Yes, the first thing that a REALTOR® and a potential home buyer can look at is what's insulation there. Now it's easy to fix. It's not a reason to not buy the place, but that would be the first one. The second one is windows. Our windows used to be single-pane. In the '70s, we had lots of single-pane windows. Today, obviously double-paned is the default. Then there's better double-paned windows and ENERGY STAR rating for those.

In fact, we're starting to see some buildings now based on the slowly reducing cost of triple-pane windows. What that does is it creates a vacuum between the two panes or the three panes. It takes a lot more energy to get the energy to get the heat across that gap. There's not much in there to transfer the energy. Better windows. Interestingly, windows are a good payback system for REALTORS®. Investing in a new set of windows for a building, you can get your money back from that. Not only with better energy efficiency, but people like nice windows

Shaun: We're talking about insulation. When I hear insulation, I just think heating your house, keeping your house warm. Growing up in Newfoundland, you got to go have insulation in your house because if you don't, you're going to freeze in the winter. Windows, same thing. It's more about keeping the wind out and the elements out. You're saying there's a more active-- it sounds like it's a little more active in its function. Tell me a bit about that.

Mark: One of the things in terms of heat and windows is it keeps the heat in so long as the air isn't turning over. The other key thing that we look for is a good sense of sealant, making sure that the place is well sealed because when the wind blows, and like we noted, in Nova Scotia where you are, the wind's blowing, it puts a bunch of pressure on one side of the building. Interestingly, it's like a airplane wing. As the air goes over the building, it creates a vacuum at the other end. You not only are pushing, but you're sucking. You can literally move all the air in a home out of that home very, very quickly if it's not actually well sealed.

What we'll see in renovations is what we call a blower door test, where they'll actually bring a big fan and they'll put it in the door and they will try and suck the air out and they'll see how well it performs. Then they can go around with you and point out, "Okay, you need to seal this and seal that." Funny story, I bought a big old heritage house and we did a blower door test on it before we put in all the new windows and did the upgrades.

We blew insulation in everywhere. He started it and he said, "Okay, something's open." We walked around the whole place. Nothing was open. Everything was tight. He said, "You basically have the equivalent of two full-size doors wide open to the outside. That's how leaky your house is." Yes, we spent the next several years fixing that and sealing it up. We got it to almost a base new home level by the end of it.

Shaun: It sounds like when you're talking about energy efficiency, that is not an efficient house. Then that translates, if I'm a buyer or I'm a REALTOR®, I think to myself, "Cost of just operating the house is going to go way up," right?

Mark: Absolutely. In some cases, REALTORS® will include an ENERGY STAR rating of a home if they know what that is. You'll see that in some new homes where the builder or the developer has actually said, "Hey, we've gone above and beyond on this. Not only should that make you feel good that you're not using lots of energy and creating emissions, but you're actually going to pay less. Every month, you will pay less than your neighbors will be paying for heating and or cooling in the summertime."

Shaun: I think that's what so many people are feeling right now, generally speaking, is "How can I save money?" It's funny, you put a little bit of money in to save a lot of money on the back end. You mentioned heat pumps. We had a program in Newfoundland of my little tiny house. I own a house there, 120 years old. It was dragged up on the ice back in the day, used to be in a small little-- Not very well insulated, but we always used a furnace, an old school furnace in the basement.

They had a rebate program, and we got the heat pump. It's a small house, but it does amazing. It's very efficient, costs so much less. It seems like this is a very high-value item to have now in your home. Tell me about heat pumps and how they're going to transform a lot of the energy systems in houses.

Mark: Heat pumps are a great story, Shaun, because you know what? We have had heat pumps for over a century. We just don't call them heat pumps. You know what we call them? Refrigerators. Folks have had refrigerators in their homes forever. That's all a refrigerator is, is it takes the heat out of what's in the box and it just goes to the coils in the back and it just goes into the room. Somewhere along the line, about 25 years ago, 30 years ago, we went, "Hey, we could do this at a much bigger scale." Thus, the industry of heat pumps was born.

If you want a story of how you can be more comfortable, save a lot of money, and save the world at the same time, heat pumps is right there at the top of that parade because they put a little bit of money into them, but you're going to make all that money back in the savings. Not only that, you don't have to put in air conditioners because a good hot summer in Nova Scotia or here or anywhere in North America, you get a good heat wave there. You're not sleeping very well. The whole place is just baking. These things will cool your house just as easily as they will heat them. Heat pumps are a fantastic move.

The incentives that you experienced, many provinces have those incentives in place, and the federal government has had some as well, because they just save so much energy, and it costs so much less for a government to give you an incentive to get a heat pump than it does for them to then have to work with their utilities to put up a new dam, start a new gas-fired power plant, or generate more energy.

It's way cheaper to save energy than to generate more energy. We're seeing a lot of really exciting incentives for homeowners, and I think today a lot of REALTORS® appropriately are up to speed on that. It's a really great way to-- It adds value to your house. If someone knows they're coming into a heat pump field house, they know they're going to pay less, and they know they can have a nice cool, they're going to sleep well in the summertime. That is a true win-win-win.

Shaun: Absolutely. Old school, it was either wood furnaces in Newfoundland, where I was raised, or now oil furnaces, they're still a thing. It's good to hear we're moving in that direction. Now, you mentioned about certain classifications that buildings get. I remember hearing about LEED-certified buildings. I was so, "Wow, this is a LEED--" You walk up to a building and you see LEED Gold, and you're like, "Oh, this is incredible."

I had no idea what it meant, and I had no idea how to decipher what makes this a LEED-certified home. How do REALTORS® look at these certifications and be able to decipher what that actually means? How can REALTORS® decipher this information and say, "This is what it means," practically for their clients? If you're a LEED-certified home, what are the things that translate? How does that translate?

Mark: It's a great question because with a certification program comes credibility and an accountable promise level of performance. We have seen over the last 25 years the rise in, we call them eco-certifications, for pretty much everything in our lives in different ways. My firm and my team have built some of these. They're very interesting. They allow you to take what is a very complex thing, like a building that's got all these different factors we're looking at, and reduce it, add them all up, and give you an answer.

This is good, Goldilocks, small, medium, large. This is low, medium, high. They've been really successful, certainly in the early years of us trying to make this much more normal. LEED was one of the ones that was definitely the highest profile, I would say, in the last 20 years. I was part of the team that helped bring it to Canada because it's an American program and we Canadized it over a little while, which was great.

Shaun: What does it stand for?

Mark: It stands for Leadership and Energy and Environmental Design, L-E-E-D. It's a formal program done by the U.S. Green Building Council and the Canadian Green Building Council. One of the things that is interesting for REALTORS® is REALTORS® that are selling multifamily homes, they're much more likely to engage the conversation around LEED. If you're in a city like Vancouver, all new residential condos, the big high-rises, they all have to be not just LEED-certified, they got to be LEED Gold. There's only one higher level. In fact, today, many of them achieve that LEED Platinum level, because the whole market has changed and has embraced that.

If you're looking at a single-family home or a townhouse, there is a program within LEED, but it hasn't been taken up very much. You're unlikely, a REALTOR® that's out there working at the ground-oriented level of housing, are unlikely to run into too many LEED homes, but they will run into another one. This is called Built Green. This was a program that also came out of the US, came out of Colorado, and then Alberta stepped up to adopt it. Then it came from Alberta to the rest of Canada. We see it most actively in play with the Canadian Construction Association.

As I used to tell my students, I said, "Between the cowboy boots in Alberta and Colorado, they kicked all the flaky stuff out of this one. This is a good program. This will withstand the common-sense test." Built Green is a good one for newer buildings and single-family homes, duplexes, townhouses. We see a pretty good uptake all across Canada of the Built Green program. It's not expensive to implement. It makes common sense, and it gets down to the nitty gritty of the kinds of things we're talking about. How well-sealed is this building? How good is the insulation? How good are the windows? What venting system does it have? Et cetera.

They also look at some health factors around the materials that are used, and do they like off-gas, volatile organic compounds, and things. I really like the Built Green system because it's really clear. You can also get certifications for some of the individual things in a building. ENERGY STAR is the highest profile eco-certification for windows and sometimes appliances, and a few things like that. The ENERGY STAR logo, and below it, you'll often see a little slider bar. It'll tell you where in the performance level this appliance meets.

If you want to go buy an $800 dishwasher, that's very advanced, it's going to be quiet, and that little bar is going to be way up in the edge. You're going to use less water, and you're going to use less energy for that one. If we buy a really old, cheap one for the landlord special, they're going to be down there. It's going to be using more and more, but you get to decide how much money do you want to spend for what level of performance. ENERGY STAR is a really good one. FSC is another one. This is the Forest Stewardship Council, and they classify the sources of wood as are they from sustainable forests and recycled wood, or not.

FSC, we've seen a huge growth in FSC in the last 20 years, which is very exciting because they're focusing on making sure our forests are there for the next generation. There's a few more advanced ones that have come up. In some of my slides, Shaun, I'll have an entire slide just full of all the little eco certifications. It's a quite a booming industry, but the bigger ones in realty, the latest two that have come out in the last decade, I would say are Passive House and Net Zero Homes.

This is really pushing back on the climate change agenda where we're trying to use less energy, and thereby produce less emissions. Passive House is a program that came out of Europe and has been embraced by a whole stream of developers and builders in North America. Essentially, it means that your house is going to use very, very little energy. The Net Zero next version of that means maybe with some solar cells or a few other things, you may actually produce as much energy as you use at the end of the year.

Shaun: Can you sell that back to the grid? Is that thing now? Depends on the province, I guess.

Mark: Yes. Many of them now essentially use, we call it net metering. You'll use energy sometimes, and then you'll be able to sell back at a future time. We're seeing that system grow quite significantly, including being able to tie your hybrid car into it. You can literally plug your car into your house now in the more innovative green homes. Say it's six o'clock at night when kids are on their computer doing work. You're cooking dinner. You're watching TV for the next three hours. Part of your TV may be powered by your electric car, but then, come 10:30 at night, everybody's tired and they all head off to bed. Now your car recharges off the grid. At the end of the day, you're paying the least amount for energy you possibly could pay over a 24-hour period.

Shaun: This is amazing. This needs to happen a lot more all over the country. My question about that though, is how well-versed in all of these classifications do REALTORS® have to be? Because I would imagine there are some that are more legit than others. If you're in America, which is the wild wild west of, it's like, "I am green certified." What does that mean?

It's a really challenging landscape to navigate, I can imagine. I feel like Canada is probably a little more regulated and a little better at making sure that anybody who claims something actually is something. Is that something that you see in Canada? They're very tight about that? I'm just thinking in terms of what a REALTOR® has to go through to understand all of these certifications.

Mark: Yes, Shaun, you've hit on one of the key words in this field, which emerged a few years into it, called greenwashing. This idea that you do a little bit of something green, and then you declare your whole house, your whole project, your development, your product, all to be, "Hey, it's all sustainable." Today, I think folks are a lot more cynical and educated on-- They might appreciate you saying, "Yes, I'm a little more energy efficient," or "I've got some low-flow fixtures in here that use a little less water or something." I think what we're seeing for any home buyer, home builder, seller, or REALTOR®, they're clear about what specifically are we talking about here because there's many things to consider.

Greenwashing can lose you a lot of credibility, even for the good things you're doing, really, really quickly. We're all increasingly careful about not saying, "Well, the building is sustainable." What we'll say is, "We put low-flow fixtures in it. We have high-efficiency LED lighting. It has a heat pump, so it's going to use less energy and produce less emissions, and you'll be more comfortable." If our landscape still has lots of water-hungry lawn and a bunch of other things, we just don't talk about those, or we'll be honest about that and say, "We haven't put in drought-tolerant landscaping or things like that." Because it's desirable, people feel the urge to want to inflate the greenness of things. It's really not a good idea because someone's going to catch you out instantly on that, and then now you've lost all your credibility. Greenwashing is something for REALTORS® when they're listing a home, highlight what's good about it, but don't go on to say more than that. Stay honest about it because that's the way to go.

Shaun: I love that. I'm just learning about this program now, but it's an incredible program that is available to REALTORS® in Canada, brought to you by CREA. It is the Canadian Certified Green Representative certification, which I think is absolutely amazing. I would encourage everybody to go out and take that course and get that certification because then you really do know exactly what everything is and the direction that we're headed. I think it's a good move for REALTORS®.

Mark: I would completely agree, Shaun. I have had the privilege of looking through the CREA program. I was super impressed. As I said, I've been in this space for 30 years, 35 years, and I was really impressed with what I saw as I went through the materials that they show. They talk about all the different rating systems, they talk about all the things that you can do and should look for in a home. They get into the much more complicated issues of embodied energy, embodied carbon, the energy and carbon, and the maybe toxic materials used just in making the products in our homes, and the materials that we make our homes up from.

Someone who's gone through CREA is going to understand what they need to know to make an educated decision, not only on whether to buy a home or what they're walking into, but how to go about thinking about upgrades they may want to do, renovations that they may want to do, and also what to avoid and where the problems can be. I think it is a real big gift that the real estate association has done this because we have tens of thousands of REALTORS® out there, and when we make a home decision, we're financing that decision with a mortgage for long periods of time.

What that means is that savings and things like energy efficiency, you can actually receive the paybacks from those and doing investments, fix up your kitchen and your bathrooms, raises the value, doing the same thing as energy costs keep going up and carbon pricing keeps moving around, but it's not going away. It may disappear into the producers from the consumers, but it is not going to go away. These are all really smart decisions. That program, I was super impressed at how fast and how understandable it was to explain things that when I took them, you had to be in graduate school studying from a professor to understand what was being talked about.

Shaun: That's great. Yes. The more knowledge, the better. I think REALTORS®, get out there, take that course immediately. Now, speaking of REALTORS®, I'm really excited because we have some REALTORS® who have some very specific questions to you. We've been talking generally about a lot of broad strokes, ideas, sustainable building, and all these programs. Let's start with our very first question from a REALTOR® right now. Let's take a listen and get your thoughts on the other side.

Phil Moore: I'm Phil Moore from Vancouver. I'd like to know a little bit more about green space. How important is it, and how do we move the needle?

Mark: It's a great question, Phil. Green space is a really critical piece of our communities. It's interesting because as we've been pursuing sustainable communities, we've been trying to use up less of the planet to house ourselves, just go and bulldoze the next forest, sprawl out with the next subdivision. We've been trying to make things a little more compact. The challenge with that is it's a zero-sum game.

There's either trees and green space or there's housing and other community elements. The more of us that live here in the same space, interestingly, the more green space we need for things. It's a very, very good question. Phil, if you're from Vancouver, you know how that challenge has played itself out in that city because we just keep adding more people into the Vancouver area, and there's no more land.

This has become a very big area. In Vancouver, at one point, they spent 10 years of their park acquisition budget to acquire half a block downtown, so there was a big enough park for everybody to use and have their dogs come out and their kids use. It's a very big issue. Some of the reasons why this is so important, Phil, and it's great that you raised it, is the first thing from a climate point of view and a comfortable point of view is what we call the urban heat island effect.

Now, this hits us in Canada maybe a little less than the US in many cities, but when we get rid of all the forest and we put in lots of concrete and buildings, the sun just beats down all summer long, and it gets really, really hot. That's not comfortable for us, and in fact, actually, a lot of people die prematurely from just overheating, so we have to start air conditioning things. Whereas a forest, an area with more vegetation, can be 25-30% cooler just because of the vegetation. It's absorbing the heat, it's providing shade, et cetera. Larger trees are really key to that one.

In the US right now, 6% of their entire energy consumption is just going to air-conditioned homes in the summertime. That's how much energy is used. Things that we can do, if we can try and plant more trees, street trees, trees anywhere you can, that's great, it provides shade, but any vegetation is better. We're seeing a couple of other components to this to a more healthy and sustainable community. Green space helps your kids grow up healthier and smarter. There's a whole bunch of studies that have been done about the relationship to green space and kids.

Now, for those of us who are older and grew up in environments that had a lot more open space, we chuckle at that. If you think back to when you were a kid, you got out, you played in the mud, you found an earthworm, you messed around with the bugs, and you did what you did as a kid, what's actually happening, apart from the fun of play, is you're actually learning about the natural world.

There are studies that are done that looked at a thing we now call the nature deficit syndrome, which is children that don't grow up around green space end up not caring about other species on the planet near as much later in life. The long-term community and societal objective is we need green space for our kids to get out because they need to meet nature. They need to come to understand that they're part of a much bigger world.

As many of us increasingly live in multifamily homes because of the cost of housing, we lose our back yard and our front yard. If you lived and grew up or lived in a single-family home, "Hey, I got my backyard," let the dog out, go out and play, have the barbecue, go do some gardening. If you live in a townhouse, maybe you have a postage stamp one. If you live in a condo, you don't have anything. The public green space, the use of a park, what a city park is is now much, much more exciting and interesting because it's got to be the backyard for hundreds, even thousands of people, which if you think about it is fun if we do it right, because it becomes a backyard party.

It becomes a place where you can have a group barbecue. It becomes a place where all the kids play, where all the dogs run around. It's not been the way we've been thinking about green space, but as we try and use less of the planet, both to supply us with what I need, including our housing, this becomes an increasingly greater attention span or an area of focus for us. One of the interesting observations about this is that it can cost a lot of money to buy a new park space as we grow in, but most cities own a third of their city. It's called streets. Almost 30% of any community is streets, maybe more in some cases.

Many of those streets have almost no cars on them much of the day. You go to a quiet residential neighborhood in the middle of the day and there's nothing. There's nobody on the street. There's nobody on the sidewalk. It's just a big piece of asphalt sitting there. What we're seeing now is parks departments and engineering departments getting together and starting to look at how we can think about these streets. Can we narrow them a bit? Can we take away a little bit of parking? Can we mix parking and trees? Can we get a linear-- We're calling them essentially greenways or linear parks.

They're actually how many of us want to use a park anyway. We'd like to go out of our house, take the dog, go for a walk, let the dog do its business, go down to the corner store, go pick up our kids from school, whatever it is, if we're in the neighborhood. This idea of linear parks is now moving increasingly into our thinking around how we get green space into our cities without having to buy up residential land and unhouse people in order to get a big piece of lawn that may be empty much of the time. It's a very exciting time right now in how we bring green space forward into our cities, as more of us have to live in the same space.

Shaun: I would imagine that green space is such a valuable part of when you're trying to sell a home or buy a home. It is for me. There's rural, there's living in the woods, but then there's-- In a city like Los Angeles, where I have lived for the last 20 years, we were so great, Griffith Park was right behind us. There's upsides and downsides. Obviously, you saw with the fires. The upside of being able to walk into nature from my house immediately and be surrounded by coyotes, squirrels, animals, life, and green far outweighs the risk of the fire in that moment, because it could happen anytime. Anyway, I think that's a great question from Phil. Okay, let's check out our next question.

Jen Aunger-Ritchie: Hi, I'm Jen Aunger-Ritchie. I come from Smith Falls, Ontario. My question is around technology. As a older-ish millennial, I'm wondering about what type of role technology plays when developing community or urban planning, as such? How are we looking to the future and bringing that future into the planning now?

Mark: It really is a great question. It's particularly an interesting one for the millennial generation. An older generation like myself, which is just one generation older, I went through school before there were even computers in some cases. I didn't get my first computer until I was deep into university. It's a very interesting one. During the lifetime of the millennials, we went from the very first cell phones that first came into existence, a long time before smartphones were there, to where we are now, where everything is wired. This is a really interesting question. The trajectory of that evolution is not slowing down.

I think the answer to a few of ways that certainly I'm seeing in our practice and in projects we're involved in, the first one was 5G bandwidth. This was all the rage a few years ago. Now we don't talk about it too much, but it's actually a very interesting piece of infrastructure that is now being fed in quietly across all cities in Canada. Very interesting one, where we've got essentially a tiered sandwich structure of Wi-Fi repeaters that then work their way up into a fiber optic and satellite web that then start connecting everything in the world. What that does is that enables things.

We're seeing a lot more investment in that, particularly for smaller rural communities, as folks do want to work from home and First Nations communities that need to be able to access education and other systems from home, particularly as a lot of our infrastructure, our appliances, and everything are increasingly wired. It's very helpful to have that coverage. I think the next thing we're all seeing in that regard is the smart homes, smart cars, and smart objects. We call it the Internet of Everything.

Most of us are increasingly aware, and there's just a huge industry of feeding us smart doors, smart safety mechanisms, cameras, thermostats, alarms, et cetera. It's a great way to allow us to manage our homes and our lives, both for convenience, but also for energy efficiency, also for increased safety. It's a really great movement, and we're just going to keep seeing more and more of that as we go.

Shaun: Mark, if I could just ask you a question on that very thing. When you talk about this connectivity now that is not just at one home but entire communities, are there ways of looking at the entire communities from a technological perspective? If you have a home that's certified, are there entire communities now, because of this connectivity through 5G and whatnot, that they can monitor and say, "Oh, the energy use on this corner up by that river is being used a little more than this area down here where it's more concentrated, there's more homes and buildings that are--"? Are they looking at using this technology as a more holistic way of designing entire communities as well?

Mark: They are, Shaun. It's been around for a little while. It hasn't taken a lot of root, increasingly where you'll find it as part of every new project. The main reason is privacy. How much energy each person is using tends to fall under certain legal privacy concerns. Who can have access to that has been an issue. The thing you just described is what we call a smart grid. We do see them in certain areas where particularly a mixed-use community that maybe one developer has done, and maybe they own a lot of the buildings and lease them out, is that they can put in place a smart grid that's tracking where things are being used and where they're not.

One of the more advanced systems that we see in some communities is it's a thermal grid. A smart grid, we would think of as power and where people are using more electricity or not. The thermal grid is even more exciting because if we put in a medium temperature water line that connects every building in a neighborhood, then when I need a lot of energy for something I'm doing, but you're not there, then I'm pulling energy out of it. Other times, I'm trying to cool something.

This is the great balance between, say, an office building and a residential building. Residential buildings need heating, office buildings, because of computers, servers, people, lights, and everything, they tend to be cooling themselves. You'll actually see office buildings in the middle of winter in Canada busy belching out all kinds of heat because they've just got so much body heat and equipment heat in there they have to cool. We're seeing those two kinds of grids. They're complex, because of privacy, because of ownership, and because of utilities requirements, it takes a little bit of work to put all that together. We're seeing some of those.

A few of the others that are maybe a little more unseen but are fascinating to watch come into the housing environment is the digitization of the building design and construction process. Most architects now are working on a system we call BIM or building information systems. They're all using AutoCAD or other similar programs. These are increasingly getting now linked into the entire construction process.

What you draw, the computer is automatically calculating how many materials are going to be used of different types, they're already beginning to draw out construction drawings based on your initial schematic design, they're checking for code compliance, et cetera, et cetera. We're seeing a really interesting-- AI is only going to drive this forward really, really fast.

Jen has hit on a really interesting question here. We are just on the cusp of an increasingly rapidly moving field here, and it's really exciting to see how it can make things more energy efficient and make them more financially viable.

Shaun: Amazing. Amazing. See, Jen, you didn't know you were opening up that box. My issue, though, is I would not want to be on that smart grid because I still have one of those old tube TVs, the big ones. You have to walk over and turn the channel. I have 12 channels. Okay, here we go. Ready?

Neda Beaulac: I'm Neda Beaulac. I'm from London, Ontario. My question is: how do we incentivize people to buy and maintain green or sustainable homes, how to educate them on how to maintain their homes, and what is in it for them?

Mark: Shaun, Neda's question is the $64 million question. It's such a great question you raised, Neda. Where we need to go with this is a slow and steady rethinking of our financing system. Neda's on to this. This is a financial question. We've structured how we build our cities, build our homes, quality of life, and businesses around a simple throughput mechanism of we just pull resources and energy out of the planet, we run it through as fast as we can, and we dump the waste out the other side. We're now looking for ways to, two things, close that loop so that that's more expensive than doing it right and not causing those problems. The other one is the financing of these.

Because we're doing what we're doing now because it's the cheapest way, we have to make it now more expensive and make other ways less expensive. In the end, especially in real estate, so much of everything comes down to financing. This is really where we need to go. That's going to be a combination of some government guidance and regulations and working with the financing sector, for businesses, for real estate, for pretty much everything, to essentially change the financial equation so that it is cheaper and better to be green than to not be green.

For instance, let me give you an example. Shaun, if I come to you and I'm a solar utility and I say, "Shaun, I'd like to rent your roof." You're going to look at me strange going, "Okay. For what? A birthday party or a sign? What are we doing here?" "No. I want to put a bunch of solar panels on your roof. I'm going to pay you every month for the rental of that real estate. I'm going to sell you some of that energy cheaper than you would otherwise buy from the power company where you live, et cetera. I'm going to net meter the rest of it out." You're going to go, "Well, that's a win-win." Now I've got a utility.

We're fairly new to this. This is interesting to see some of our politicians today and the world financing industry beginning to get on board. The insurance industry is driving some of this because they're having to pay the outcome costs of climate change. They're really interested in changing some of these things. We're starting to see a real interest in the financing industry. We're starting to see new funds emerge and models of how we can finance more sustainable cities, buildings, and infrastructure in a different way because they have better outcomes.

In the end, a lot of them actually save money in the long term. Just like your mortgage, we just spread the costs out over a long period of time. In this case, then, the positives actually offset those costs. This is a new field that we're all beginning to look at, but anybody who can find a way to innovate and make that work, potentially could get very, very successful.

Shaun: I do want to follow up because I think Neda was talking also very specifically about a REALTOR® to client to get them to buy into this movement. What are ways that the client can see the opportunities that motivate them? It's got to be by dollars and cents. I think it has to be by dollars, no? How can they be incentivized? Is it bragging rights that I have a greenhouse, or does it actually affect my pocketbook?

Mark: There's a small number of people who are prepared to do bragging rights. I think what matters there and the answer to that really good follow-up question, Shaun, is it's one of the key roles of luxury homes. For folks who have extra money and can afford a luxury home, they're not just trying to get that extra bedroom for their kids and just make it work financially, they have the opportunity to really push the boundaries out on this.

What's interesting actually, is that if you're not just trying to make ends meet and you look at financing a different way, you look at it as an investment, this is where all the conversation changes on many of these green innovations. I'm going to put $10,000 into solar cells. Yes, I'm going to get $10,000 back in seven years. If I look at that as an annualized return on investment, I'm making 50. What am I making? 12%, 15% return on investment because I'm going to get my $10,000 back in seven years.

Now that's not bad. That's beaten the market almost any year in history of the stock market. For the higher-end homes, the investments in efficiency, energy supply, and a lot of these other sustainability things, they actually pencil out in a very, very reasonable way. It's not necessarily the way, we need other incentives. We need to literally, "Our society values these. It's for our kids." We need to provide incentives for folks at the entry level, the rental homes, et cetera.

As soon as we move into more expensive areas, REALTORS® can talk about this with their clients from a return on investment point of view, which actually pencils out a lot better than many other investments that we might have our, "You know energy is not going to get cheaper. This is your house, and you know it's all there. If you're planning to stick around for seven years, not only you're going to get it all paid back, that's called a pretty good investment in your money."

Shaun: That's great. I think that's super clear. I think Neda can take that to her client and say, "Hey, what he said." Next question. Have a listen.

Sam Wyatt: Hi, I'm Sam Wyatt from Vancouver. My question is: how can we get traditional builders into this newer technology where they're building in micro factories with robotic systems to build homes faster and cheaper? How do we actually get them into the transition?

Shaun: Sam is touching on something here, Mark. It's a great question because the world is changing.

Mark: What we have now literally dates back hundreds, even thousands of years in the training programs for carpenters, tradespeople, and masons, et cetera. Our whole building industry is based on a lot of institutions, practices, training programs, schools, building codes, bylaws, particularly municipal bylaws, local city bylaws, zoning, and things like that. Unions, there's many layers to the transition. The technology is advancing, I'd say a lot faster. This is what Sam can see. He can see, "Hey guys, we've got some really great stuff happening here. How do we get it into the mainstream?"

It's going to happen. It's inevitable. There's far too many advantages for this not to happen. It's just basically a process of innovation, developers, builders, REALTORS®, taking the innovative step to take a risk on let's build this one in a more modular and efficient way, let's get that in there, and people look at it and go, "Hey, that actually looks pretty good." One of the biggest leaps in this thinking happened about 15 years ago when Glide homes came out and everyone started to think differently about them. This is a really interesting way to go.

There's a lot of benefits to these. They may not be that much less expensive to produce. You still require wood, insulation, cladding, lighting, wiring, plumbing. The core materials are a little different. They generally are better built, Shaun, because they tend to be built in a big warehouse, at least all the panels are. It's climate-controlled. They're not getting all wet. It tends to be better. You know what building in Nova Scotia in the wintertime is like. That's a dicey project. That's the same for all across Canada. There's a lot of benefits to this. We're going to see a lot more of it.

The other thing is in construction timing, because you can order that building and have it built very quickly in pieces. The construction delays of on-site building can add hundreds of thousands of dollars to a large project in costs, because every extra day that you have to do that, you're paying interest on the land, you're paying interest on all the loans, because almost 100% of construction is financed with debt. Any delay is a lot of money. It's just going to take a while for all of those regulatory, trades, and financing pieces to get in step with what we're producing here.

Shaun: Do you think that these traditional builders they have to start investing in the technology? Do they have to rethink their business model? If I'm a Beverly builder, I own a company, I've been doing it this way my whole life, and now all of a sudden, this modular world is happening so fast around me, how would these individual smaller companies be able to keep up? They obviously need to innovate and find a way.

Mark: It's a great question, Shaun, and we're going to see it play out slightly differently, depending on what kind of home they're building. We're used to thinking that a builder is going to go on site with a hammer, nails, saws, and they're going to build it. We may well end up with builders that are essentially like the folks you pay to put together your Ikea furniture, where you can literally buy a whole series of panelized from a company that just produces these kinds of panels, you just basically plug them in. You've now broken apart the construction process into smaller pieces.

This is still new days. We're waiting to see how this emerges, but there's far too much upside for this not to begin to take note. Sam's question is a great one, and it's an exciting new chapter we're all going to watch unfold. I call it progressive capitalism. Some things will succeed, some won't, but we're moving in the right direction.

Shaun: Yes. Look, obviously, REALTORS® are really interested in gaining more knowledge about green building and sustainable practices. Again, we have to talk about the way you do that is by signing up for CREA's new Canadian Certified Green Representative Certification and learn a whole lot more about that. I think we're almost there, Mark. This has been such an incredible conversation. I think REALTORS® are going to take a lot away from it.

In terms of the future, what are the most scientifically exciting things that we can wrap up our conversation with to talk about the future of sustainable design, sustainable building, and the future cities, towns, and houses for Canada and beyond?

Mark: We've talked about a number of them here as we've gone, Shaun, and it's a rapidly evolving field. I think we're going to see the technology of smart, intelligent management, tracking, assessment processes, et cetera, continue to advance. That's going to show up for your average REALTOR® in quite a many different, diverse ways between the products that are available, the expectations of the buyers. It's very quick.

The thing about a home and garden channel, you get a bunch of home TV out there, you get a lot of social media. What the buyer wants can advance really, really quickly, frequently faster than in real estate. It takes us quite a while to respond because it's pretty complicated and expensive. I think we're going to see the buyer starting to really pull us all forward to be more efficient, to be more environmentally friendly.

If you've got someone who's grown up with the question of climate change and sustainability, Greta Thunberg around them since they were a child, they keep looking at us because where they're starting from, maybe you and I have spent decades working our way to get there. That's where they're starting from. They're like, "Well, we need to do better. Why can't we do better?" In 10 years, they're the buyer. I think the exciting thing is the evolution of values and the response to the future that the next generation of buyers is going to pull us forward very definitely.

We've talked about modular 3D printing prefabrication. This work is already being done. It's just a matter of getting traction here. For instance, Central Canada, where in Ontario and further east, they've got lots of steel construction for buildings, even just within Canada. Here in BC, we've got almost nobody who supplies it. We bump out at about six stories on our buildings because you need to get to steel to go beyond that one, or concrete, and concrete's the most expensive. We don't generally build in concrete unless it's a very expensive building, until we're up at 16 to 20 stories. We go from 6 to 16.

Steel is a beautiful mid-sized. It's the scale of Paris, Vienna, and all the European cities, but we just don't have any suppliers out here, and we're in the same country. This evolution of technology, methodology, and prefab, we're going to see. It's not that we have to invent something new; we just take what's already the best practice in certain areas and get it spread much further than that.

Mass timber is going to be one of the most exciting ones. Right now it's pretty expensive, but this one combines ecology and digital world, so you have to design the building to a very high level of digital accuracy, Shaun, down to where every wire goes. The design of the building literally pre-drills the hole for every wire and pipe in the whole building, and then that entire digital package is sent to a plant and they create wood panels, posts, beams, floors, ceilings, and they basically flat pack it and send it to your job site and you literally put it together like an Ikea machine, you bolt the building together. It's already pre-drilled, pre-done, you just run the wires, run the plumbing.

These buildings go up really quickly. They're made from wood, which we have lots of in Canada, and it is beautiful to live in these buildings. They are these big, beautiful beams, and this natural wood everywhere, this warm-- It's just amazing like that. That's one of the ones that I'm watching. The only reason, Shaun, why it's not happening everywhere all the time is simply economies of scale.

This is a new innovation that's come into our market in the last 10 years. They're literally building 16, 20-story towers out of this in Europe and the U.S. now. As we can build that industry here in Canada, then REALTORS® will be having these conversations about some of the most advanced, exciting, comfortable, and really cool technology. It's coming. It's a big wave that's coming.

Shaun: I love it.

Mark: What I think is great about the CREA program and this progressive thinking that the real estate association is taking is it's preparing all of its members. It's preparing all of the folks who are at the table when we make the most important decision of our lives in terms of where we're going to live, where we're going to raise our family, where we're going to retire, what building are we going to be in, and it's making us think about the future.

Historically, we've thought about the present and maybe just around the corner. This alone is going to be, I think, a very exciting real pull forward for all of Canada to begin moving in continually to become far more sustainable in how we build our communities and our homes.

Shaun: Mark, we've talked so much about all the amazing technologies that are now coming in to the system. Some of them, the smart home stuff, just talking to your lights to say, "Can you please dim yourself?" These kinds of things, "Turn down the thermostat." What were some of the things back in 30, 40 years ago that people were having that same thought about back then that now are ubiquitous?

Mark: It's such a great question, Shaun, because it can feel sometimes like we're trying to climb Mount Everest to make these changes. Because they happen slowly, as we've talked about on a number of points here, it feels depressing and tired. When you answer the question you've talked about, there's a lot of hope in this. We can actually make some big changes. Then you look back at what we've done. Solar panels, solar panels used to be freaky 1970s, very inefficient, great, big, huge, luggy things that were hard to get a hold of. You had to have a big battery pack in your basement. It was all plugged in order to make this thing work. Now, solar is everywhere.

The signs along the sidewalk or along the highway they're all solar-powered. Folks have got solar on their RVs. We've got solar on our houses. The price of solar is just continuing to fall. The price of energy is going up. The business model is starting to make this work. Almost all homes in Canada now, because of the building code, have to be solar-ready. They have to have conduits in the wall from the electrical panel up to the eaves. You don't have to be ripping out drywall and tearing your house apart in order to put on a solar panel in the future. You just fish the wire down the conduit and stick it on the roof. These are simple changes that are now basically setting us up to a whole new world of solar.

Heat pumps. We talked about refrigerators. Never thought about the fact that we could heat or cool our whole house that way. They're now everybody. Everybody's got them. Most new homes that I'm working on, even the condos, most of them are all heat pump driven. Low-flow toilets. That's another one. I remember when I was the manager of the sustainability office at the City of Vancouver getting a call at about 5:30 one night by a panicked architect who was trying to get a LEED certification for this new hospital building they were doing in Vancouver.

There was one supplier, think about this, Shaun, one supplier in the world that supplied a low-flow dual flush toilet. The bowl was the wrong dimension, so it violated our codes. They couldn't put it in. We were going to end up with these big water pegs in this huge building because of that. They eventually found a way past it. Today, $100. Go down to Costco, nice two-piece, low flow. A low-flow toilet, you can get, put in, it looks nice. It's all fashionable. Those old toilets, five gallons of water every time you flush them. These ones, less than a liter. Massive changes.

LED lighting. Remember the first LED lights to come in? We went through CFLs. They were weird and cold and tried a bunch of different things. Then LED came out. They were weird, worse, green, and whatever else. Today, they look just like-- In fact, you can hardly buy a regular bulb anymore. The LED lights use 80% less energy. When you think about the targets for energy reduction and emissions reduction, we're trying to target 80% less by 2050. We did it in a couple of years with LED lighting for that piece of the budget of the energy budget.

FSC sustainable wood, almost impossible to find 20 years ago, everywhere now. You can get it off the shelf at Home Depot. We're seeing such a huge change in so many things when the market is there, when technology comes on board, when the governments change the regulations to support it. That's why you hear some optimism in my voice, is just over my career, I've seen so many things go from where we'd be literally at tables going, "How can we do this? Where's the waste heat? Where's the waste energy? How can we plug them in? Maybe we could do that." Then here we are. They've completely replaced everything that was on the shelves in the common store and changed the whole building code.

Keep your hope up, keep going at this because we're going to be successful in the end.

Shaun: I don't know how much it costs to cryogenically freeze your brain and then reanimate you in 30 or 40 years, but we may need to do that because you're a brilliant man and we need you in the future.

Mark: Likewise, Shaun, we need you frozen as well because we've got to laugh. Laughing is what gets us through all this.

Shaun: Oh yes.

What a great conversation, Mark. I've learned so much. Personally, I think our REALTORS® they have a lot to take away from this and a lot to chew on. Of course, every single REALTOR® is going to go out there and take the certification course because you will have another arrow in your quiver when you're talking to your clients. Mark Holland, man. Thank you so much. This has been a great chat. I wish you well and keep up the good work.

Mark: Thanks so much, Shaun. It's been a real pleasure talking with you. It's a great program.

Shaun: Wow. You can see how Mark is such a great professor. I could listen to that guy talk for hours. In fact, I did today, and that's why this is one of the longest episodes we've ever done, but for good reason. It was just so reassuring to hear from Mark that the future of building design is heading in a sustainable and green direction, and it has to be. For REALTORS®, truly knowing what your client wants and understanding how sustainable housing affects your business is a key to being a leader in the industry.

I got to tell you, after hearing Mark talk about it, he saw it himself, everybody out there who's a REALTOR® right now needs to go out and get their Canadian Certified Green Representative Certificate right now. You heard Mark say, it's truly a world-class program. Make sure you go out there and get that so you can be ahead of the game on all fronts. What a great episode. If you liked today's episode, make sure you go to your favorite podcast platform, give us a review, give us a like, share it with your friends. Make sure you do that.

Today's episode and every episode is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association. The production is brought to you by Alphabet® Creative. I'm Shaun Majumder. Thanks for joining me on the podcast. This has been REAL TIME. We'll see you next time on REAL TIME.

We all have a responsibility to-- to turn off our phones. Ron, I'm doing my podcast. I'll call you after.

Ron: Okay. Sorry. I love you.

Shaun: I hate you.

Ron: Bye.

Shaun: Okay, here we go. He's great. He's my bromance.

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The brand you build as a REALTOR® is what sets you apart, it’s also helpful to demonstrate your value to both clients and peers. So how do you build a brand that exudes authenticity?

On this episode of the REAL TIME podcast, three members of the REALTOR® community, Greg Hamre, Tony Joe, and Angie Vazquez, share how their unique brand lays a solid foundation for their professional reputation.

Transcript

Tony Joe: Brand is what people think of when your name is mentioned.

Angie Vazquez: Oh, you're the REALTOR® with the bulldog.

Shaun Majumder: I have been in Carrie Fisher's bathtub.

Shaun: What's your brand? You know, that thing that everybody knows you for? The thing that defines you and how you operate, at least from an outsider's perspective. For REALTORS®, having a strong, distinct personal brand can not only help you stand out from the crowd and make a good first impression, but it can also help you build your reputation. Today, we're speaking with three REALTORS® who really know how to own their brand and use it to build professional relationships.

I am so excited, guys. This is my third episode. Every single week, I am learning something new about your amazing industry. Today, we're not talking to an analyst. We're not talking to somebody who has an opinion about things. We're talking to the actual REALTORS®, the soldiers on the ground, getting it done every single day. I'm so excited to talk to you guys. Today we're focusing on brand. This idea around brand. From my perspective, when I think about brand, I think of a company's brand. In your case, you guys, not only are you dealing with a company that perhaps you work for, but you're talking about your own personal brand.

I want to start the conversation today by, why don't you guys tell me what you guys think brand means to you as a REALTOR®? Let me know, how do you define brand. Greg, maybe I'll start with you.

Greg Hamre: Our brand is our name, Hamre. Our tagline is we know a lot of us who use both of those brands. That shows trust, commitment, longevity. We have three generations in the Ottawa real estate market, so we have legs here. We have multiple generations of clients. It also means we nurtured the client. We give free advice every day and try to promote our city as well as the lifestyle that Ottawa has to offer. We think it's a great place to live, and we love moving people in and out of our city. We love when they return.

Shaun: When you say multiple generations, what do you mean?

Greg: Well, my mother, Shirley Hamre, was an all-star REALTOR® for many years, starting in the '80s. When I joined the company, she was--

Shaun: Tough time to start.

Greg: It was, but she was very much an entrepreneur, one of the top females in Canada. I'm very proud of her. She founded our business. My brother became my business partner in the early 2000s. Both my son and daughter are REALTORS® as well and champions, as well as the rest of the agents on my team.

Shaun: Oh, that's amazing. Your mom-- Look, when you were looking up to your mom back in the day when you were just a teenager, were you thinking, "This is what I'm going to do?" Was she like, a South Asian dad who was like, "You're going to become a doctor"?

Greg: No.

Shaun: You know what I mean?

Greg: Yes.

Shaun: How did that work?

Greg: To me, it was very much a retail job, and I wanted to get out and expand and be more national. Then when I came back in-- I started 25 years ago. I came into the city of Ottawa and understood that there's a relocation part of this business. That's picking people up at the airport, showing them our city, finding the right missing piece of the puzzle to make sure that when they relocate here, they're in the neighborhood that suits their lifestyle, their recreation needs, their work needs, their transportation needs, and their family school base.

To me, I never wanted somebody to make a mistake or move here and say, "This is not the city for me. I'm not happy with my house," or "I'm not happy with my neighborhood. I got forced into it because we were short on time." That never happens. We spend a lot of time before they arrive, on the phone. Today it's with video so we're coaching them, we're understanding them, we're asking a lot of questions. We know the family dynamics. We get really, really deep in the family's needs, their style, what their motivation is.

Yesterday I was speaking to someone from PEI. Earlier in the week we were talking to someone from Vancouver. They got hung up by the snowstorm last week so they couldn't come in, but we're still working with them. A lot of those people – and I just have people leaving today from those, heading back to Nova Scotia – we're so deep with them. They absolutely, in a lot of cases, didn't have to arrive here to look at the house. They wanted to and we wanted them to, but we knew exactly what their needs were, what their style of lifestyle was, what meant something to them, and what the perfect place for them to call home would be, in a lot of cases, before they arrived.

Shaun: What I'm hearing is that as a brand, for your company's brand, for your team's brand, it sounds like you really, really invest in the needs of the client. Is that how you would encapsulate the brand of your particular team? When you think about brand – because I know you have a branding background, right? – how does branding as an individual REALTOR® differ from, say, when you're trying to build a brand for an upstart company?

Greg: In our case-- and again, a lot of our business is repeat and referral, and referral with other agents across the country, and around the globe, quite frankly. I've done deals, interacted with Tony in Victoria before. We've had the trust from each other to know that the customer that we're dealing with is very important. I would only put them in the hands of somebody on the other end that I know could give them the same style of representation that I could.

Shaun: Love it. How about you, Angie? How do you define brand? What does brand mean to you?

Angie: Brand is your story. I think it's your life story. Listening right now to Greg, I want to move to Ottawa now. It's just amazing the way you're very passionate. I can relate because we're like a tourism guide of our city. I am in Squamish, and it's a very nice community, only 24,000 people. It has been easier to be outstanding because I think-- With the billboards and the bus shelters, I feel like a celebrity in town. Walking, everybody recognizes you, so I like the feeling of the small town as well.

The brand is my story. For many years, when I started real estate, I felt insecure about my accent, if they can understand, and particularly this is challenging. Going to interviews, et cetera, I was like, "Oh my God. Am I saying this correctly?" I think at the end of the day, people, it's what is different about my brand. My person and my accent, it's part of the whole brand. I think at the end of the day it has been an asset instead of a liability.

Shaun: When you talk about story, you talk about narrative and your own story, are you talking about the personal journey that you've been on? How much of that do you actually share with your clients, and how much of that actually helps build value for you and your business?

Angie: That's very deep, because of course we are a public person. Everything we do at the end of the day in the negotiation and in a small community, of course it's more noticeable. I started working at London Drugs 14 years ago when I moved to Canada 16 years ago, and I started to be a part of the community. Of course, being at London Drugs, it was like a shell. I got exposed to meeting people in the community, and I feel that they feel very proud of me that now I'm a very successful REALTOR® in town. I'm one of the top producers here, and it's like, "Oh my God, I remember when you were at London Drugs."

As a single mom raising two kids in the community and sponsoring now events for the firefighter gala, or going to the Helping Hands, it's nice to give back to the community. Sometimes I feel more like a community promoter, more than a REALTOR® or a salesperson. My background is computer engineering. I had the opportunity to share this story through social media, and people engaged with me and support everything we're doing, and that's the way we talk to the community as well.

Greg: Be proud of yourself. I think, as REALTORS®, we're all trying to stand out with our brands. Your voice stands out, and it's really recognizable.

Angie: Can you understand what I'm saying?

Greg: Absolutely.

Shaun: Oh yes, for sure. Tony, how about you? What does brand mean to you?

Tony: It means what both Greg and Angie have said, absolutely. In addition to that, what I feel is brand is what people think of when your name is mentioned. When somebody says Greg, what does that represent? I think it is within us as real estate professionals to make sure that we build in the background over many years, not a persona, but a personality where people know what they're going to get. Right?

When somebody, a client, is at work and is talking about wanting to buy or sell something, what the brand is is when their colleague says, "Oh my goodness. You have to talk to Angie," or "Greg's the guy." That is the brand. One of the things, Shaun, that you asked a moment ago was about-- or something that has come up was companies versus REALTORS® and branding. Let's face it. As real estate agents, we don't have the budget that major companies have to spend on marketing. A lot of what the brand is for us is the time that we have invested within the community. As Angie said, people get to know who we are and what it is we do.

The other thing for me is a brand is-- it's like a pledge. It's like a pledge. It's a promise of what you're going to get. I think the hardest thing for a consumer is trying to go through advertisements or the internet or websites and trying to figure out who is the person I'm going to pick for my real estate needs. It's hard for them to know-- It is harder, I think, than we appreciate, where people look online and go, "I don't know if this is a good person," or, "Is this going to be the right fit?" To have a brand where you are that person, you're the guy, you're the gal, that to me is a brand.

The other thing too is somebody with a marketing budget who spends money on ads or bus benches, we all have our different ways of marketing. The problem, I think, is that there's always somebody else with a bigger budget, and they can go and get a bigger bus bench or a bigger billboard or whatever. When you have a brand that is recognizable and people know what it is you get, you can't be dethroned. Somebody is not going to suddenly become the celebrity, like Angie said. That doesn't happen overnight. It's a pretty significant investment. I think investing in the community so that people know who you are and what your brand is, it can't be taken away. Right?

Greg: To Tony, that part-- We've known each other for years. Got to meet Angie this week and it's been great, but it takes time to get that trust in somebody, right? It takes time. Right now I'm looking for an agent in Sherbrooke, Quebec. I've reached out to all my agents that I have relationships with, in Sherbrooke, Quebec that are like us, or like me, and said, "Who would you trust in Sherbrooke, Quebec?" Because I wouldn't just go on the internet and find a referral agent, ever. Unless I know that they're trusted and they're trusted by my peers, I'm still haven't found the agent yet.

Shaun: That's interesting because, Greg, when you're thinking about it from your perspective, you're on the inside. You have other peers that you've worked with that they all know the kind of language to speak and how to refer somebody to you from the inside. If I'm a buyer or a seller, I don't have a network of people. I think what we're dealing with is we're going through listings, like who are these people, their bus benches, their ads online. There's a vibe there. There's social media.

I can't imagine what it was like for your mom back in the day. She was literally pounding out pulp and paper to make papyrus leaflets, going door to door and handing them out. Now you have so many different options to share who you are.

Greg: To that point too, you can build your brand so much quicker than you could before. The cost of print, the cost of getting your kids to go door to door with flyers and that, it still works. Not a bad thing, but with social media today and the availability of telling your story, being empathetic, as a REALTOR®, as a young REALTOR® new in the business, you can build your brand a lot quicker than you could 25, 30 years ago.

Tony: I think it's really important-- We're talking about Greg's mom or REALTORS® from previous generations. What they did is what we still need to do, which is to face-to-face with people, and to actually engage with them. We have to make good on our promise. To have a brand which is, "Oh, he or she is a great REALTOR®," we have to make good on that promise, but the face-to-face I think is crucial. All of these tools and marketing that Greg was just mentioning here, absolutely. Things can happen quicker, but the face-to-face is still the thing.

Shaun: Yes. You still have to pay off, right? You still have to have that vibe and that connection with people. Angie, you talk about you're in a smaller-- I wouldn't say small. I'm from a town of 350 people. When you say that you're in a tiny town of 22,000 people-- I think relatively speaking, when you're talking about developing your brand in a small town like that, like face to face, you've already had a history with some of the people in the community. Now, how do you take that personal relationship that you already have with the community and then bring it to your professional life?

Angie: Totally, it's more reinventing yourself. They say that only 50% of the marketing works, but nobody knows what 50%. I think in the beginning what most of us did is I did it all, like door knocking and pamphlets, brochures. Now I try to focus all the efforts on social media, but I also did something very clever because I was in the radio here and there's only one radio station from Vancouver to Whistler to check traffic. Then I always was recording like, "Thank you for the community," and in Christmas, like Feliz Navidad in Spanish. One day I was going to Home Depot and somebody were like, "Oh, your voice. I heard you on the radio." It's outstanding being on there.

That campaign was very successful. It's trial and error. I had a campaign. One day I was in a photo shoot, and I was taking care of a bulldog. Grabbing to help the photographer because the sellers were away. Then the photographer took a photo and I put her in a bus shelter. I received more than 50 texts. "Did you get a dog? Did you get a dog?" I discovered that it's a great way to connect with the community when you do a campaign. Then I tried the same campaign for cat people. I was like, I'll do a campaign with a cat. The campaign with a cat was not successful like the one with the dog.

Again, some stuff that we do it's a hit, and some stuff it doesn't work, right? Again, you have to do it all at the end of the day.

Shaun: I see. You're playing pet politics. You're doing cat people versus dog people. That can be very divisive in the country we live in today.

Angie: I hear you because I know the dog people won. That campaign, it was just dog people. 50 texts, and about the dog. I was like, "Guys, it's not about the dog. It's about me. It's about real estate." Nobody cared. It's like, "Oh, you're the REALTOR® with the bulldog." People, they start connecting and they can relate. It's very interesting. It's also about reinventing yourself. Nine years ago, I started with Instagram and nobody knew about Instagram, or a lot of REALTORS® they didn't use Facebook. Now it's TikTok. You have to always be reinventing yourself.

I have the privilege as well to have now a family business. I feel like Italian, El Padrino, because now my son is the next generation. He's 22. He got two years ago his real estate license. I have to say that I forced him. I cannot say that it was organic because he was working in construction, and he was taking a gap year. Now as a REALTOR® and the campaign with us, when I was endorsing him as a REALTOR®, oh my God, it was so successful because he's very aspirational. I think everybody of us as parents, we always want our kids to join the business, right? I think it was also a lot of people, "Congratulations. I wish my son wanted to work with me. I wish my daughter wanted--" It has been a very--

Again, it's not planned. It wasn't a plan to be a marketing campaign, but it ended up being a branding and marketing campaign. It's organic.

Shaun: Angie, how old is your son?

Angie: 22.

Shaun: He's dialed into the social media.

Angie: Oh my God. I couldn't do it without him. Yes, it's very, very nice.

Shaun: That's awesome. It's funny because when we talk about the whole social media branding thing, it seems like-- You see online there's different individuals. There are those people who are "influencers", and they peddle products, but who are they as a person? You never really get to know that.

Tony, I'm just curious your thoughts on that. You've lived a few years. Now when you think about that, the social media side of things versus the face-to-face stuff, talk a little bit more about that and how important it is to really be sure that you're there and you're present. It's not just about how many posts can you do, but what's behind them.

Tony: I started in this business 34 years ago, and things have changed. Yes, folks, there was a time when there was no internet. There was no email. We had to physically, pen and paper, write contracts and run them over to people's houses at midnight and run across town. That's the way things were. There was always advertising. There was print advertising. It was always easy enough to portray yourself maybe as something you're not. I think this is one of the drawbacks to social media today, is it is very easy, especially in the days of HGTV.

All of these selling fancy home TV shows and things like that where there's this specific glamour that people attach to the real estate industry which, let's face it, is not really there. That's TV, right? To be able to post on social media a persona that is not what the people get when they meet you. I had mentioned before you still need to make good on your promise. It's a reminder about the fact that in the background, we still need to be good at what we do. We still need to be skilled at negotiation, at marketing, at dealing with customers. It's a lot of counseling. We counsel people through a very stressful time.

The biggest failing really would be when somebody is delivered to you on your lap based on advertising or a promise and it's incongruent with what they get. Really it is crucially important to be in the background good at what you do.

Shaun: It sounds like authenticity is an important value.

Greg: Yes, you can't sell. The worst thing you can do is sell. The second worst thing you can do is go dark, meaning you're not out there. You have to be consistent. You have to educate, inform, and give away free knowledge about the market. Don't worry about the selling part. Just be empathetic about who you are, what you know about the industry, what's happening in the industry. Everybody wants to know. There's television shows, channels called HDTV, I believe. I've never watched it. People love to know what's going on in real estate. We need to be that voice in our communities.

When you're telling people, "Here's what's happening. Here's how the tariffs are going to affect us. Here's how the weather will affect us. Here's how lower interest rates will affect us," and allowing them to make the decision, is this the time for them or maybe it isn't? Giving them the confidence that you know. You are the news, and you know what's happening in the marketplace. This takes years and years and years.

We started doing video online in '08, '09, so it's not new to us. We were out there. When people understand our voice, understand the color of our eyes, our mannerism, they know that already from watching video on social media. We have to be there constantly so that we don't get bumped away. Everybody knows five REALTORS®. How do you be the one that they call? How are you the one that they go, "That's the one I have the confidence in. They know what's going on, and they're the ones that can take my sale or purchase of my home across the finish line"? It's so important.

Shaun: Greg, as a potential buyer in the Ottawa market, I'm scouring the internet, and then I come across something that you and your team have put out there. Why should I choose you guys? Because there's so much out there. What are you thinking about in those terms? Because it's all just voice and people trying to sell me something. From my perspective, it's so hard to differentiate. What are the things that you guys do at your team to differentiate?

Greg: That's a great question, Shaun. The average buyer takes 368 days to make their purchase decision. It isn't overnight. We have to build relationships with them. We know the name of their dogs, their cats, their kids, what schools their kids go to. We know what their favorite restaurants are. We get to know what their lifestyle is. Do they go to the gym in the morning or the afternoon? Are they into running or would they prefer to bike? Do they take public transit or everybody in the family has a car and that's why they can't live downtown, they need space? We need to know what their situation is.

Now, it's great that some people come in and buy in five days on a relocation trip. That's wonderful, but we've built a lot of time and trust with that family a long time before they arrived. When it's a local person, they're moving laterally, maybe they're moving up or downsizing, it takes a long time. I've done three listings already this year that we've been working with those couples on selling their homes – most of them were a year, the other two were a year and a half – where we had the summer photos already, so we could do that when the snowbanks for six.

There was a lot of nurturing, trust-building, and confidence. This isn't a sales situation like any other sales business, and I don't like the word. It's a relationship business, there's a trust, and we're so involved in their lives. There isn't another sales career that actually fits the mold like real estate does, and I love it.

Shaun: Angie, you were talking about-- I remember I heard a story about how personal it can get, and for some reason, a specific group were gravitating to you specifically. Talk a little bit about that. How your personal brand plays into your professional persona.

Angie: Totally. It's very interesting because I got a call from a beautiful client and she was like, "Hey, Angie. Somebody recommended you because I'm divorcing. They said, 'If you're divorcing, Angie is the one who's going to help you out.'" I'm like, "Oh my God, how come?" I always ask, "Who do I have to thank?" because I send a gift card if somebody recommends me. She was like, "We were in a therapy group, and everybody were like, 'Oh, Angie. No, totally Angie.'" It was the whole group. It was very flattering, but at the end of the day, I think because I have been through divorce as well, I can relate, and I can help in that difficult time.

They say that there are three difficult times in everybody's life. That is when somebody dies, when you move houses, or when you divorce, right? We have the opportunity to help somebody through these stages in life. Greg was mentioning yesterday as well, right? I have sold houses. I started 13 years ago, but I sold a house to a very young couple that they were relocating from Vancouver to Squamish, because we are in the middle of Whistler and Vancouver. It's a very nice community, 30% less per square foot. Young couples want to live here because of the lifestyle.

Then they had a baby. They bought a condo, had a baby. I moved them to a townhome. After the townhome, they had another baby, to a detaching family home. Unfortunately, they are divorcing and now they need two townhomes or a condo and a townhome. Backwards, right? 13 years that I was in the process of having family and having more kids and going to school, and now separating. You get involved emotionally as well with them, because I were like, "Oh my God, not you guys," but it's part of life and it's part of what we do.

Shaun: How do you protect your own mental health in those situations?

Angie: Oh my God, Shaun. That's a very good question because sometimes you're drained. I was sharing a story yesterday as well. I went to a presentation center, the 10:30 appointment, with one of my friends and clients that is divorcing, the 12:30 appointment with another one, and the 3:00 PM. You hear all the stories as well. I came home and I was exhausted, at the end of the day, but here with nature and walking in the forest or swimming in a lake. You're totally right. You need also to recharge because the expectation, and my own expectation, is that I have to be always on the top of my game, and not only for my clients as well, because after all, we are life coaches of our kids.

For me, that my son works in the company, it ups my game because I cannot be-- I have to be on the top of my game to inspire my family first and then the community, if I can, in a way. Everybody wants to share a success story. Tony, as well, you mentioned about authenticity. You cannot be like somebody else. People will know. If you do it for the sale or for the money, forget about it. This is a service. REALTORS® being-- it's like you're a therapist, you're like a psychologist, you're a coach, yes, and you're the best friend. Yes, I see it that way.

Shaun: Tony, I guess that is what you mean by Monday to Monday. It's not just, "Hey, I'm meeting with this client today. We're going to focus on this hour. I'm going to go over numbers. We're going to look at what's available, what's not available," and then you go away from it and you're like, "Okay, I'm done with that session." It sounds like it doesn't work like that.

Tony: I think what we're discussing is the difference between having a relational business with a consumer and a transactional one. Unlike regular retail settings where you sell a stereo and bang, that's it and you never see the consumer again, this is a very intimate transaction. As Angie says, we get to know everything about consumers, to the point where we have to pledge confidentiality, right? With that trust that we hold in people, there is that pledge of protecting them and serving them, and all that.

Greg had mentioned the timeline and the cycle it takes for a consumer to go through. It got me thinking. In today's day and age, REALTORS® partake in online lead generation where they pay money to get leads to have introductions made, which is fine. This is a new way of marketing today. Agents forget about the fact that usually when people sign up, the consumer is very early in their cycle. They're not five days from buying or a month from buying. They are a year from buying or 18 months from buying. That's the reason why REALTORS® often complain about the fact that oh, these leads are crappy, they're junk. They're not a good lead.

It's not that they're not a good lead. It's just that they're not a now lead. They're not a now lead. They require nurturing, they require incubation, and the people who succeed at these are ones who are good at regular follow-up and establishing a relationship. It almost seems like this is the message for this particular session today, is the relationship. Having a brand that establishes a relationship with a consumer, because it is it is a deep relationship. It's not transactional, right?

Shaun: What I'm hearing from all of this, which is really, really interesting, it sounds like-- When we hear the word brand, brand is very surfacy, it's out there, but in this business, it's probably-- What is the split? What is the split between advertising and getting your "superficial" brand out there? What percentage is it that versus what percentage is the-deep-in-the-trenches authentic relationship-building? I know they go hand in hand, but it sounds like it's much more about the relationship than it is about the superficial.

Tony: I will say this. We study it across the country, and we have a look-- I'm involved in a real estate coaching company and I teach. I'm an instructor for our regulator and I have the pleasure of getting to know all these people across the country, like Greg could clear across Canada, right? What we have noticed is there's a lot of agents who do very well. Who do really, really well, but you never see them because they don't advertise in the tradition. You don't see them on the bus benches. You don't see them on the billboards or things like that because they focus on the relationships with people.

In some respects, maybe they don't need to produce as much to pay for that advertising because their advertising is much more face-to-face. Again, I think it's something that sometimes agents forget about. It's not just all about the splash. The thing about our business is it's built in a way that agents can promote and advertise, which is great. You think about the financial services, like financial advisors. They have compliance, and it prevents them from actually advertising or doing social media. We have this gift that we can do that, but sometimes it's the superpower that maybe is not used correctly because, again, we advertise a persona that maybe we're not in alignment with.

Greg: When you talk about that, Tony, I think that's very interesting. I think you're talking about when people have hashtags or tags that are over-promising the customer. When you go back to your style, and I think it's Angie style, as well is building community within your community, and you're building trust. You may be on a billboard. You may be on the back of a bus. You may be on a practice jersey at the rink supporting kids. You may be promoting the Children's Hospital, the work at the Children's Hospital. You may be using your voice to promote the Snowsuit Fund that we do here in Ottawa as well, another one of our avenues.

That kind of promotion of being involved in the community, you know what? We get it. We want our community to be a wonderful community. It's all a part of the lifestyle of living here. That's why Ottawa is such a great place to be because people are so into caring for one another throughout the community, plus we have recreation. Plus, all that stuff goes alongside, and that just builds on your brand, builds on your community advertising, keeps your voice out there, and reminds people that, again, everybody has five REALTORS® they could choose. How do they choose you?

Angie: The word-of-mouth of the referral business as well. At the end of the day, everybody now with a budget. It's true that with social media, everybody has. Even smaller companies can compete with big companies and can go viral. It's a phenomenon what is happening right now with the social media, avenues open to everybody with a smaller budget. At the end of the day, I think seniority and being an expert in your town. The average age in Squamish is only 38 years old, so I had to very be conscious about how to-- They don't grab newspapers. They don't read magazines. They go on social media.

They're always in social media, so that's the only way that I can communicate with them. It's not to reach them as a lead, it's communicating, engaging that they know that I'm all there and demographic. Again, that I can understand their needs because they're here for the lifestyle. It's a disadvantage in a way that I don't ski or mountain bike, et cetera, because my competitive sport is real estate. I do risk in a very high level. A lot of people, they get their clients biking, so they will think it's a disadvantage that I'm not out there biking because I'm working. I'm working for them. I think I play, so I don't know. It's just perspective at the end of the day.

Tony: I love that.

Shaun: Now, I'm curious about-- well, because I hear a lot about community. I'm hearing community is so important. How has your REALTOR® brand led to new connections that perhaps are outside of your workspace?

Tony: I love this conversation. I often chat with other agents about merging your interests and your passions with business and finding things that you enjoy doing, because you're going to do it anyways, and how often, when you do it often enough or you're seen often enough, the consequence becomes doing business. For me, for instance, I'm a car guy. I love cars. I am deeply in the local car community. We organize a big event here in Oak Bay. Oak Bay Collector Car Festival has been going for 25 years. We close off five city blocks in a little village here called the Oak Bay Village. We get 350 cars out, 30,000 people come out for the day. I just love doing that, and my participation there is as an organizer.

Now, this has nothing immediate to do with real estate, but you think about it, guys. It takes planning. It takes countless committee meetings. You're sitting with people who you didn't know before, and you have a sort of common interest. When people start getting to know you, they start getting to know who you are and what you represent. Then suddenly you get the phone calls from people saying, "Hey, I got to sell. I got to buy," or, "I have a friend or family member who wants to sell or buy." Just getting back to this conversation of relationships, that's how you build the relationship.

The other thing too Angie had mentioned, so important for us to donate and to contribute within the community. It is easy to write a check. Again, I do believe that we should be supporting organizations, but sometimes the gift of your time and your skills and your connections-- See, consumers think that REALTORS® are connectors. Let's make good on that promise, which is the reason why I always feel that we as REALTORS® should be doing more with the service organizations, with the Rotary, the Kiwanis, all of those groups.

It saddens me when I speak to agents in communities and find out that there's no REALTORS® in these groups, and there should be. There should be because if our motto is to serve, we should be serving the community. Givers gain, giving starts the receiving process, and that's what the community service is all about.

Shaun: I can say just imagining myself in that situation, immediately there's a feeling of trust in the way where if I'm having a conversation with, let's say, you, Tone, about a car, it really is disarming. I'm fully open and vulnerable to hearing your story. There's no, "Okay, what is this?" I'm not feeling you out for anything, I'm just fully listening. I imagine by being involved in the community in other ways than simply being a REALTOR® out trying to promote your business, that really can bridge and really connect.

Greg, do you have examples like that in your life and in your team's life about bringing what are your superpowers, if you will, that are outside of the REALTOR® game?

Greg: My superpower is enthusiasm. It's funny you say that because we had a team meeting yesterday and everyone had to list their superpower. We were thinking in the same way. My kids played sports growing up. My daughter was a swimmer and my son played competitive hockey at the highest level possible. We just went around the rinks. I never missed a game, and I always made sure I had time for that, blocked that time off. 11% of my business came from the hockey rink. Not just from the team that he was on, right across the city. Then he went on internationally, but that was a big part of it.

When that void left, a very good mentor of mine out of Boston, Anthony Lamacchia, said, "Greg, you have to get involved in the real estate boards." I got involved with our local real estate board. I got involved with CREA, and I'm part of the ambassadors for RE/MAX corporate across Canada as well for their marketing department. That to me helped me elevate my game. I started meeting other REALTORS® that had like-type experiences, and I've always been involved nationally with referral type of events. When I started to study the foundation of our businesses and the causes that REALTORS® do, all the community work, that really helped me refocus because I wasn't in the rinks anymore. I wasn't at the pools. I was like, "Okay, what do I do next?" I think Tony's had some big roles in his own board and has been president. That is to me, gives back a lot to me. I just like meeting people that have the same vision of making sure our industry is as professional as possible, that we generate professional REALTORS®, and that it's understood. That's from the federal, down to the municipal, down to our community, through our boards. I'm really enjoying that part. It's re-energized me to be focused.

Angie: Coaching other agents as well, right?

Greg: Absolutely. I get to coach eight different agents. Our team is nine. I coach eight different agents every morning at 8:30 and that's regenerated me as well.

Angie: One hundred percent.

Shaun: Guys, when you talk about your personal brand and your brand as a professional, there's got to be some crossover there. How does that personal brand and the professional brand work together when working with other REALTORS®, for example? Tony.

Tony: Because we've been talking about how important your brand is and how consumers know what it is they're getting when they meet you face-to-face, it is just as important in the real estate community. What do other REALTORS® think of you? What do they know of you? When you are working together, what's their experience going to be? Let's face it, sometimes people have a bad brand. Sometimes REALTORS® like, "Oh my goodness, I don't want to deal with that guy or gal because the last transaction was a nightmare." It behooves us to maintain a brand that we work well with others. We play well with others in the sandbox.

Shaun: Are there rules in the sandbox? Are there etiquette? Tell me a bit about that, Greg.

Greg: There's definite etiquette, and that's almost your secret sauce. What I mean by that is if you have etiquette and I coach my team on it being etiquette, part of that is communication. Part of that is trust. Let's say you're in a situation where there's three offers, there's five offers, maybe this is just two, and you're going with, which REALTOR®-- both the offers are very similar. Having that trust from the other agent that they can say to their customer, I know this agent from the Henry team in Ottawa can take this across the finish line. Everybody wants their customer to have a wonderful experience, whether they're representing the buyer or seller.

There are certain agents that could take across the finish line, and you have that trust that it'll happen. You want that to happen. You don't want at the last minute it falls through because somebody wasn't able to deal with the lawyers, someone who wasn't able to deal with the home inspectors. Nobody coached that person along the way. Then you're just left holding the bag. Now the house isn't sold, you're back on the market. Who can get you across the finish line? It all comes down to communication. It all comes down to understanding etiquette as a professional REALTOR®. Those that do succeed and go a little farther than--

Tony: By the way, I believe that this is not a domain that is only for the 25 or 30-year REALTORS®. I have worked with some fantastic newer agents who have imparted that sense of confidence, where I've been able to say, "You know what? He or she has only been in for two or three years, but I've dealt with them, and holy cow, they can make it across the finish line."

Greg: I like the way you talk about that, Tony, because as a veteran agent, I've been in the market 25 years, I like helping other agents. I don't want them to make a mistake in front of their clients. The interest will be of my client first, but I will coach that other agent to make sure that they realize that this is what etiquette is. One of the biggest things for me was when you have a multiple offers.

I remember in COVID, we'd have 15 or 12, and before the end of the night, I called every agent that brought me an offer to thank them for bringing me an offer. I didn't text them. I called them, said, "I'm sorry, they work with another offer. It's such a pleasure to have the opportunity to work with you. Thank you. Can't wait to do another offer with you in the future.

Angie: Wow.

Greg: Keep the door open."

Shaun: What's an example of what not to do in that situation, Angie?

Angie: Well, one of my rules is that if I'm going to a listing presentation competing, usually it's three agents, two or three agents. I always ask the family that is interviewing me, I don't want to know who I am competing against. I don't want my decision to be, oh my God. I just want to go authentic with my listing presentation and tell them what I can do for them. Of course, I love winning.

Most of the time I get the listing, but I just don't want to say, "Oh I'm competing against this person or another person." Something very important as well in this regard is when things go wrong, the amount of times I have paid for TVs, for Sonos system, for repair like refrigerators, that's also huge in the industry.

That when something goes wrong, that you have as well, the budget and the will to fix it. With no questions asked because it's part of your reputation and your branding as a REALTOR®. In the future, they are going to remember, "Oh my God, I remember the REALTOR®." Then when the TV was taken or when the window coverings were taken, she brought the TV to us, right?

Shaun: Is there something that REALTORS® do on the regular that is really frowned upon? I'm just curious because I know we're focusing on the positives, and we are flush with positive with this group for sure. I think if I'm a REALTOR® and I'm watching, I'm like, if I knew what not to do, and-- because there might be blind spots. What are those things that people may be unaware of that they're doing that they could learn from this conversation and say, "Okay, I will never go down that road."

Tony: Don't let your ego get in the way.

Shaun: How do you mean?

R: Again, they watch it on TV.

Angie: It's not a power position.

Tony: It's not a power position. Agents sometimes will try to exert some form of power or an ego trip that isn't there. They're writing checks that they can't cash. We must always remember that we are looking after the best interest of our client. Sometimes agents get in the way because they have to win or they feel like they have to win, and they're not letting their clients get what they want. We can see that every once in a while. Let's not forget who we work for. Who is the client? We're in service of the client.

The other thing too, by the way, Greg's 25 years in, I'm 34 years, Angie's 13 years. One of the things that we have as agents who have been around for a bit now, there is a responsibility that we help newer agents. We inspire them so that they go, "Oh my goodness, I just did a deal with Angie. She was fantastic. I want to be like her." or "I will never forget my dealings with Greg because he made me feel comfortable and helped me get the deal through." We have a responsibility as experienced agents to impart that on others.

Greg: You'll get so many more deals if you leave the other REALTOR® with a positive experience. No matter what their ego is, kill them with kindness, feed them communication. That makes you step up, and it'll last. That'll come back and grow for you.

Shaun: It's great lessons as a human being, too.

Tony: Yes.

Angie: Totally, and when an agent, like new agent, has a $3 million sale or like a-- I always call them as well. "Congratulations, that's huge." I'm happy for them. It's nice.

Tony: I am certain Greg's heard this and probably Angie as well, because I have too, when an agent calls and says, "Wow, I saw it was your listing and I'm so happy to be working with you."

Angie: Oh, that's the best, yes.

Tony: Right?

Angie: Totally.

Greg: They know that you'll pick up the phone. It works the other way, too, that Tony's going to. There's two listings on the street, they're both the same model, but they'll go to yours because they know you're going to answer the phone, they know you'll work the deal. You'll know that the customer will get to the finish line. That's so important.

Shaun: Angie, did I hear you cook?

Angie: I cook Mexican food, and I have won people over meals. I wanted to share that my big event every year I sponsor a salsa dance festival. We had 200 people dancing at the pavilion last year. It's about providing a happy experience as well. It's just the emotions and the people being happy dancing salsa, bachata, merengue. I dance as a hobby with the champion, with Dancing with the Stars, with Gerald Koch. I learned how to dance salsa in Canada, believe it or not. I get on. Totally.

Shaun: That's so funny. That does say a lot about Canadian culture, though. We are a great country.

Angie: Totally, totally. I sponsor that event. Again, it's not like a sales event. It's a salsa experience, and people they are so grateful. They go and want to talk to me and say thank you just for the experience. I never was like, "Oh, if you need me, like if you are selling or buying, call me." I don't even think about it. I think there is a misperception about REALTORS® are a salesperson and we're always like trying to sell. I think it's opposite at the end of the day.

Greg: Just be yourself. Just be yourself. Speak your own language. You'll attract your own audience.

Angie: Totally.

Tony: Angie, things like that. When REALTORS® put on events, it is not about the selling yourself. What you've really done is it's a gift to the community because-

Angie: Totally. Be happy.

Tony: -without your support, without you putting it on, it may not or probably will not have happened. Again, another great example of what we as real estate people can do in our own communities.

Shaun: That's amazing. That is inspiring across the board, especially thinking about-- I come from a small community. My town is 350 people originally, that's where I was raised. Community events are so important. It's not about, "Okay, we're going there to mingle, to do drum up business." It's truly just to be a human being connected with the tribe and connecting. I love that.

Tony: People get that. The community gets that. When they see that enough, and they see that as, yes, and then they get to know you and who you are. That's when the time comes for them to buy or sell, they can't think of anyone else but Angie. Right?

Shaun: Right. Right. There's a magnetism there. Especially, I understand, because I love Mexican food, Angie. I love Mexican food.

Angie: The happiness. I'll cook for you whenever you visit in Squamish.

Shaun: Yes. Yes.

Greg: Put me on the list.

Angie: Yes. Absolutely. Invite you to the event.

Greg: We said earlier though, you can't go dark. You have to be out there in your community. You have to be visible. Whether it's going to a hockey rink or a soccer match, or maybe it's the triathlon or the run through your community, make sure you're visible in your community. It's so easy that we give all our energy all day long, and you just want to come through the door at night, drop your briefcase at the front door, and go, "I don't want to talk to anyone for the rest of the day."

You got to regenerate. You got to be there for your family when you come through the door. I'm all about leaving my briefcase at the front door, spend some time with your family, be where your feet are, but make sure you're out there supporting your community in every way possible.

Tony: You got me thinking of an agent that I mentored for a short time because he was struggling. It's amazing because we determined that he spent his entire day in his home office on the computer, doing work-related things, but he was never out. Like you said, you can't go dark. It is very difficult to meet people and build lasting relationships if you are not out there and face to face shaking hands or whatever, fist bumping nowadays, whatever it is we do. You need to be out there, and you need to be seen.

I get the fact that some people, personality-wise, maybe they're not the types that go to black tie galas or whatnot, but you still need to be out there and perhaps finding groups of people that you are more comfortable with. I chatted with another REALTOR® a little while ago. He's one of these Dungeons and Dragons game guys and everything. I said, "Find your friends." It's a community, right?

Angie: Totally.

Tony: There's communities all over.

Greg: Yes.

Shaun: Speaking to that, I don't know if you guys heard, but a few years ago, there was this global pandemic that happened all over the world that was such a monumental shift in all of what you're talking about in terms of like the whole thing was to go dark. You've got to go dark. You're not allowed outside. How did that impact the REALTOR® game? Then how has it changed over the last five to 10 years? The idea of branding and was that event something that realigned with a new way of doing things at all? Talk a little bit about that. Yes. Greg?

Greg: We've been doing listing videos since 09. We were already doing virtual. When it got dark like that, when people cocooned, they actually went on their computers. We stole market share. We became the voice. We were out there. Here's how we're going to guide you through this. Here's how people are cocooning. I believe that's going to happen right now with these tariffs. I believe people are going to cocoon again and create the walls around their fortress and invest in their homes or invest in their lifestyle or say, "I'm not waiting for anything else."

They'll invest in their homes literally. I think we're going to come out of this. It'll be another bit of a spike in the market. What's going to happen here is when that happens, if you're not out in your community, be the voice in your community. If you can't go and meet 20 people a day, or you can't make 20 phone calls a day, make a video on what about the real estate market that goes out and reaches thousands of people in the first 24 hours.

That's another relatively inexpensive way to get your voice out there and be part of the community when you can't be face-to-face or belly-to-belly with them. There's nothing better than being face-to-face. I think that's the most valuable, but make sure you're out there at least on social media.

Shaun: Angie, how have you seen it change over the last 10 years?

Angie: For me, it was a blessing. When it was like a pandemic Squamish. I doubled my productivity in pandemic because we were a bedroom community. Squamish before 51% of the population of the working force commuted, 21% to Whistler, 30% to Vancouver. When they found that they can work from home, everybody wanted to cash out on their investments, like in Vancouver or their homes in Vancouver, and move to Squamish because they can get a bigger house, because we're 25, 30% less price per square foot.

They moved to bigger places that they can have. The thing that they asked me the most during pandemic was a house with an office for him and an office for her. They needed a three to four-bedroom places. Instead of living in a condo in Cole Harbour in downtown Vancouver, they moved to Squamish. I remember we sold 2020, 63 houses, and I cannot say we were not prepared because we're always prepared, but it took us by surprise that everybody wanted to move here. The challenge to do the virtual showings.

What I did, I had a building, I was selling 15 condos, and then I remember I got reprimanding, like, "You cannot do like open houses, et cetera." Then I was like, "It's a virtual open house." I went to the building, stay at the door with the mask, and open all the doors so then people can get themselves in. You had to be creative. It was a good thing for Squamish because before we were a bedroom community, and now we're like a destination, people like to live here.

Greg: This is going to be another tough time. There's no doubt about it. That's the elephant in the room right now. There's an economic uncertainty here. This is where we really shine. This is where the true agents really shine-

Angie: With experiences.

Greg: Experience. I love how you say you doubled. I'm not trying to compare numbers, but our whole team got tripled first quarter because we tripled our business during COVID. We didn't stick in our pajamas every day. We got out there, we were out there. Everybody had to show up in our own team meeting every morning at 8:30, dressed for success, shower-ready. Being there and staying in the focus, we were essential in COVID.

We were ruled essential. People needed us to buy and sell homes. People still needed a roof over their head, and the agents that understood that and really jumped on that. The easiest way to do it was through social media and through video. Then like Angie said, do virtual tours of the home. People still needed to buy homes, and we were there for them.

Shaun: I quadruple whatever, guys. I am so full. I quadruple than vax. I am so full of vax. It's unbelievable. If you guys need any, let me know. That's amazing. Now, Tony, you've been around forever. You started by sending carrier pigeons with leaflets or whatever, smoke signals, back in the day.

Tony: Pretty well.

Shaun: How has it changed over the years for you? What have been the biggest differences between when you started and today?

Tony: Talking about the pandemic, that was a point in time, and I know for many it hurt and it was difficult. When I got in the business, fax machines were a big deal. We were running over to people's houses and getting them to sign thermal paper. Remember the paper turns black over time, and it got to the point where REALTORS® they were confused. They're like, "This can't be legal, this can't be legitimate." That was technology making its way in. Piggybacking on what Greg said.

The interesting thing is whether it's COVID or whether it's tariffs or whatever it is, it's interesting because as an industry, the real estate industry, we are actually really well positioned to adapt and adapt quickly to the needs of consumers. That can't be said of other industries, unfortunately. We know that because tons of people lost their jobs. As an industry, that is something that if we have done what we're supposed to be doing, we're talking about branding, we're talking about community.

When the economy goes kind of sideways or people start getting concerned, it's the people who are entrenched. It's the REALTORS® who are entrenched in the community, the ones who have already invested in their local community where the dividends come out. Just like Angie and Greg, we were massively busy at that time, and it's because people went to professionals that they knew and trust. That, again, is where the importance of branding comes in, because then people know what they get.

Angie: In COVID, I did a campaign because there was some stages that we couldn't even leave the neighborhood. I went and bought coloring books and crayons and drop off to the neighbors' because the kids were at home with no activities. It was so nice, like the feedback from the neighbors, "Oh my God, my kids have been coloring for hours." Giving the parents a little bit of a break. In those moments of emergencies, when you have to as well, like be creative and shine and think about others, how can you support the situation?

Shaun: I love that. You're just a natural mamacita, you're just like, I have to take care of my family.

Angie: My people.

Shaun: I love that so much. We've covered a lot of topics, we've covered a lot of ground. There's so many things from your own personal experiences and some great personal stories, by the way, of actual real-life things. For REALTORS® who are watching this right now, looking to develop a brand, looking to start or restart or rethink, I want to go through each of you. Tell me what would be the thing that you would say to these REALTORS® who are really trying to develop that brand?

Angie: I always recommend that they work with somebody, that they find a mentor or a coach. When I started, I started with Maggi Thornhill, that is like a tycoon real estate in Whistler, and she's very well known. She sells over $300 million every year. I had the privilege to work with her, but she's very busy. I really recommend teams.

If you're new in the business, have somebody to pave the way. For me as an ESL, it was very tough in the beginning to read contracts, to understand the complexity of the subjects, how to protect clients. It only comes with experience and repetition. Also, if you have somebody mentoring you, that's huge.

Shaun: Yes. Tell me about that, Angie. Actually, I'm curious about your very first week. Your first year essentially, tell me about that and what it was like. You didn't have a mentor, you had nobody to help you, you're ESL, you're a relatively new Canadian. I don't know how long you were in Canada at that time-

Angie: Yes, three years.

Shaun: -but talk a bit about that.

Angie: First, when I went to UBC to get my real estate license, the first time I wrote the exam, I failed. I didn't pass the exam because I couldn't read fast enough. It's encouraging because a lot of agents are like, "Oh my God, the exam is difficult." I was like, "Imagine in a different language, it's more difficult." I got a very proud 53. It's perseverance. I joined the business because I wanted to have flexibility to pick up my kids at school, and I wanted to manage my own schedule.

Little did I know that it was seven days a week. The first three years I didn't make any money in real estate. I had a part-time job. I had another job and I supported myself with international students. I have nine international students. Don't think a lot of people see me, and they were like, "Oh my God, you got into real estate in the perfect timing." I was like, "No, I didn't." They see the success story and they don't see the struggle.

The first time I hosted an open house in Whistler for Maggi Thornhill, I was so excited. I printed everything, and I was rushing there. My daughter was three, my son was eight, so the nanny was late. I forgot the signs. I forgot everything. I just went with myself. Then I called Maggi. I was like, "Maggi, I forgot everything." She was like, "Don't worry, darling." She went and put the signs and brought me a latte. Oh my God. Ask me how many times I forgot anything.

I learned the lesson. The first three years were like very, very tough. I started to be more successful when I left my part-time job at London Drugs, and they were like, "This is it. I'm going to do this full time." That was I will say when I started to be successful or selling because having a part-time job and the students, if you don't do this full time, it's going to be a struggle.

Shaun: Looking back, would you do anything different?

Angie: I will have worked with somebody in a team before, being somebody's assistant maybe. Maybe you need to have certain cushion of money in order to start real estate if this is your only source of income, because don't expect that the first year or the first six months you're going to make any money.

Shaun: Right. Greg, how about you?

Greg: It's a long-term game.

Angie: Totally.

Greg: I hired a coach, John Chaplick. I mastermind with him every Monday night, and I have a personal call with him every Wednesday morning. It was a game-changer for me. I hired him going in when we hit COVID and I was like, "Uh-oh, this is different." Having a mentor like that, having someone that coaches, a lifestyle coach and a real estate coach just to bounce things off of. It allows me to coach my team. Every morning at 8:30 we do a coach huddle every morning, five days a week.

I've also reached out to those agents that have been in the business a while. When you get the opportunity to mentor, to give back to younger people or newer people in the business, it is so rewarding. I know that Tony's a coach as well. You learn more from that. It's just like going to a presentation at a convention and being up on stage. Trust me, you get more than the audience does out of it. When you give back to people getting in this business to make sure they avoid some of the mistakes you made.

I have a number of agents that are younger that have been in the business for less than five years, but have 10 years' worth of knowledge because I've coached them through it. Here's how you avoid the mistake. Here's how you make the customer experience a wonderful customer experience. Here's how you put the customer first. Here's how you use empathy. Here's how to avoid being a salesperson.

All that stuff that took years as we talked, as Angie said, if you don't have somebody to get you over those initial hurdles, it's really tough to get going. When you've been in the business and you start giving back to others, it's even more rewarding and it's more beneficial to your own business. You get better. I think that's part of being somebody that's a veteran in the business. We have to make sure that everybody else has a professional framework and a professional comes across as a professional that our industry needs them to.

Shaun: I love that. That's very wise to think in that way. Actually, I said to my kid, I learned this saying years ago, and I tried it out on my five-year-old because I was trying to share with her that she needs to teach her little sister how to do stuff. I said, "Because Mattis, to teach is to learn twice." She looked at me and she threw pudding in my lap. I don't know if that will sink in, but I think this idea of to teach is to learn twice is amazing.

Now, that's how advice you give people when they're first starting out. Tony, when we talk about developing your brand as a new REALTOR® or as a REALTOR® who's maybe rethinking their own brand, what would be the most important thing that you think they should focus on?

Tony: Well, first of all, I agree with both Greg and Angie. It’s easy for me to say, I am a coach. I coach for Richard Robbins International out of Toronto. I have for 15 years, and I have seen people develop. As Greg said, it's being able to take the struggles and the pains that a seasoned agent learned over 10 years and help REALTORS® do that in three. To condense those things, that's what coaching is all about. To be a coach, absolutely. You're learning twice, 100%. It keeps us accountable as well too, because what we are helping coaching members with are things that we too need to be practicing as well.

Back to your question, Shaun, about what somebody new should be doing. I think it is crucial to build your tribe. To have people around you, because the problem about this business is it's lonely. It's a lonely business. We are in silos. We are always alone. REALTORS® are always feeling like there's no support. Let's face it guys, it's not rocket science. There are thousands of people who have done this before you, who have struggled or have had slow months or who haven't seen a paycheck for six months, but they have found ways.

The key, as Greg has said, is to tap into people who have done it and say, "What can I do? What are the things I have to do?" Be open to learning. That's the key as well. There's people who say, "I want to get into coaching. I want to learn." When the coach says, "Consider this, this, this, and this," they go, "Well, I can't do that. Oh no." If they're close to learning, they're not going to advance.

Greg: Be coachable.

Tony: Be coachable, Greg. Getting back to finding your tribe, because we've talked about this, we talked about merging your passions. Is it sports? Is it church? Is it school? What are the things-- It's funny, the show producer here, Mike, when we were setting up yesterday, he said to me, he goes, "You've got stuff in the background that's going to be on screen. Are you sure you want that?" For anyone who's seen it, I've got all this sci-fi paraphernalia. I have signed a Carrie Fisher and Mark Hamill stuff. I'm a huge sci-fi nerd. I am not ashamed to admit it I am a sci--

Shaun: Tony, can I interrupt you?

Tony: Yes.

Shaun: I have been in Carrie Fisher's bathtub. I'm not even joking. I'm not even joking.

Greg: Just got a visual.

Shaun: I've been there and she wasn't home. It was so wild. I was working on a tv show in California, and then I was working with the Farrelly brothers. This one of the guys that was working on that show was good friends with Carrie Fisher and we ended up shooting a little thing in her house. I was in her house.

Greg: So cool.

Shaun: She actually had action figures of the original A New Hope, Princess Leia's. Ah, so I just had to share that. See, now let's buy and sell a house together. See, that's how that works.

Tony: That's just the thing is to find people who share the same-- I'm involved in groups, both REALTOR® groups and also-- one of my dear friends is a fellow who owns a paraphernalia-- I was going to say paraphernalia, sci-fi paraphernalia shop in Victoria. He's got a toy museum, the Canadian Toy Museum. It's been a fantastic relationship. He asked me about real estate things every once in a while, but that's not the reason why we hang out. It's because we have shared interests.

Again, to have your own specific groups and to be proud of them and to also work within it, build your tribe. It could be professionals, it could be your trusted lawyer, your trusted accountant, your business networking groups. You need people to survive. It sort of goes back to what we said earlier. We still need to be good at what we do, we still need to have a reputation, people still need to want to deal with us. It is important that on a daily basis we perform these tasks with a level of skill such that our reputation precedes us.

Shaun: Yes. Your brand reputation obviously interchanges with your personal reputation. That's the other thing too. I can imagine if you're in a community, like there's not a lot of room for outside-the-box messing up, if I may say that. You guys have to be-- that's a lot of pressure, isn't it, guys? Greg, you're in the Ottawa community, everybody knows you there. How much do you have to be aware of that, too, your social side?

Greg: Always, always. I went to the hockey rink at 6:00 AM in the morning with a suit, because if I didn't, and I was in my sweats, people were like, "Is real estate not good?" No, a lot of my business came from there. I dressed up like this when I went at six o'clock in the morning. What I would say to new agents is you have to be visible, but you also have to communicate. It's great to communicate on social media. It's part of it. It's great to communicate by email and text, but pick up the phone. Pick up the phone. When you get an email or you get a text, it's an invite to call them.

That picking up the phone and having that one-on-one relationship is almost as good as sitting in front of them in a coffee shop or at their kitchen table. You need to be in front of them. Don't be afraid to call them, stay communicating with them. Make sure they understand how deep you are in their relationship and how important they are to you. When that sign is out front and your sign is up front and their friends and neighbors are asking, "Oh, you went with-- that's a team I would have gotten with," and they're quite proud of it. They feel like they have a relationship with you, and they do. It's deep.

Tony: By the way, it is not just when you are helping them buy or sell. We have to remind our clients, and as agents also have to abide by the fact that we are their trusted agents for longer than they're just buying or selling real estate.

Greg: You nailed it.

Angie: Also your glass has to be full. It's not only coaching and real estate. I took a five-day course with Tony Robbins that changed my life as well. It's also having a lot to give. The more like activities or hobbies and-- the more you grow, the more you have to give. It's not only real estate. it's like we're an integral part of the community.

Shaun: Guys, what an amazing conversation this has been. I really hope REALTORS® who are watching this are taking away from Mount Olympus here. We have some of the best and the best and the best. I have learned so much today. I'm hearing authenticity. I'm hearing community. I'm hearing all of these incredible things that I'm sure REALTORS® who are watching this are going to take away and put in their toolkit. Guys, thanks so much for joining me on REAL TIME.

Angie: Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

Tony: Thanks for having us.

Greg: Thank you, Shaun. You're great.

Shaun: Go Canada, go. Go Canada, go. I guess that old saying is true, your reputation precedes you. If your brand is a reflection of your reputation and vice versa, then making sure your brand is true to you is key. Authenticity will get you very, very far.

Thanks so much for joining us today. As always, if you like today's episode, make sure you give us a review or a like or a smash or whatever you do. Give us a good review on your preferred podcast platform. Today's episode, REAL TIME, is brought to you by The Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA), production courtesy of Alphabet® Creative. I'm Shaun Majumder. Thanks so much, and we'll see you next time on REAL TIME.

I'm just saying, as a Star Trek fan, you're going to love it. It was a great episode.

Greg: your ears and stuff?

Shaun: No. That's Vulcan. Who is this guy? Who is this guy?

Angie: Break them up.

Tony: I can't speak for him. I can't speak for him.

Greg: It was in Hockey Night in Canada, I can't help it.

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Capitalizing on your niche can be the key to moving your business forward—just ask April Brown and Sarah Sklash, founders of The June Motel in Prince Edward County. What started as a side hustle between best friends has now turned into a Netflix sensation and multi-property endeavor.

On this episode of the REAL TIME podcast, April and Sarah share how honing in on their unique offering is what really made The June Motel into what it is today. Plus, hear their take on why focusing on a niche audience can actually make things easier when it comes to marketing your business.

Transcript

Shaun Majumder: You feel that leaning into that niche market has really paid off?

April Brown: We were sold out that first summer. We were featured in Vogue. It was a wild ride that first year.

Sarah Sklash: It's bad when you need a sign, which meant people were gutting fish in it.

Shaun: There's a real magic that comes with honing in on what makes you stand out. Not many people know that better than April Brown and Sarah Sklash, the two best friends behind the iconic June Motels, and Netflix's renovation show Motel Makeover. April and Sarah joined me today to talk about their journey to finding June, who may or may not be a real person, and how embracing uniqueness really helped them find their niche and help to create the successful business they have today. Wow. April, Sarah, this is so exciting. Thank you so much for joining me today. How are you doing?

April: Good.

Sarah: Yes.

Shaun: Love it.

Sarah: Happy to be here.

Shaun: I love it. Listen, this story is so inspirational, it's amazing. I want to start at the beginning. I can only assume that obviously you two went to some mountain town in Switzerland and trained to be world-class hoteliers before you started on this journey. Is that correct? Is that a fact-based assumption?

April: Honestly could not be further from the truth.

Shaun: Let's start at the very beginning. How did The June Motel come to be?

April: Sarah and I, we've been friends for 20 years now, maybe a little bit more than 20 years. It was 2016 and we were both working separate 9:00 to 5:00 jobs in Toronto. I was working for a PRM marketing agency, Sarah was working for the Ontario government, and we both really dreamed of doing something different with our lives and our career. We were looking for something that would bring a bit more meaning and purpose to our lives at that point. We got together one day. It was the beginning of the year. We cracked open a bottle of wine. We're like, "This is the year we're going to make some changes." We probably brainstormed 50 different side hustles, honestly.

They weren't even like, "We're going to quit our job and become a motelier." At this point, we were like, "We're just looking for a weekend thing." There's this little area outside of Toronto that's called Prince Edward County. It's an up-and-coming, or at the moment, at the time in 2016, it was an up-and-coming region with wineries and breweries, cool restaurants. We had been going out there with our girlfriends, drinking wine, seeing it evolve, seeing the opportunity, and we were like, "Oh, wouldn't it be cool to do something out there?" Actually, one of the ideas that we had come up with in that brainstorm was this idea of hosting a weekend wine camp for adults.

Shaun: Camp. Oh, I like that idea. You guys would be the head counselors.

Sarah: Of course.

April: Of course. Drinking all the wine.

Shaun: Right.

April: We were just looking for a place to host it. Sarah knew that there was this motel that was for sale outside of Picton, and said, "Oh, maybe we would take over for the weekend, and make it cute, and host everybody there." We start thinking through this idea. It was honestly minutes into this brainstorm that we looked at each other and we were both like, "We should just buy that motel."

Shaun: Wow. When that light bulb goes off, I assume at that point, you're probably two or three bottles deep?

April: At least a bottle. Let's assume at least a bottle.

Shaun: Just to get to say, "We should buy that instead of just going and hosting a girl's weekend," that's a huge leap. That's epic, but why not? That sounds exactly in line with your personalities and what you were feeling at that time. That's a huge leap.

April: It was a massive leap. I want to say we had that conversation in January, and a couple of months later, we're literally putting an offer in on this motel. Couple of months after that, we are quitting our jobs, packing our bags, moving to this town of 4,000 people, and actually living at the motel.

Shaun: Wow. Do you remember what the name of the motel was before it became The June Motel?

April: Yes. It was called the Sportsmen Motel and it was a popular stay for fishermen and hunters. To paint the picture, it was musty blue carpets, those old floral quilts on the bed, and the only art in the room is this laminated sign that says no gutting fish in room.

Shaun: I think that's a quality rule. I think you should not gut fish.

Shaun: I live by that in my house.

April: Me too.

Sarah: It's bad when you need a sign, which meant people were gutting fish in it.

Shaun: Yes. Right. "Frank, I've told you, every season we've talked about this. You've ruined the table every year now, please. You know what, Helen? Let's get a sign. Let's paint a sign, put it in each room." Wow.

April: Exactly.

Shaun: How much of it did you just look at online and fall in love with at first? How much of it was going there to see it? At what point did you say, "This has got to be the property that we have to purchase?"

April: I think we went there with some conviction that this was going to be it. I think we joke when we look back on it now we saw past a lot of things. The floors were sloped, the place was extremely run down, but we had such a strong vision at that point that we showed up and we were like, "This could be amazing. This is it. We need to do this." I think it was that vision and that conviction that we had for the idea that I think just propelled us to see past the sloped floors and the imperfections of this place, and see past what it was and see what it could be.

Shaun: Take me through the idea because if you're sitting there, you obviously have gone through a big list of side hustles, and then you honed in on this idea. Was this an inspired idea from that conversation and you just worked it out as you were having these brainstorming sessions, or was it something that was always in your back pocket and you thought, "Wouldn't it be cool if we could find something to do?" What was the idea, per se, Sarah? What were you guys honing in on?

Sarah: I think we knew Prince Edward County was a place that we knew people were going to want to be. I had purchased a cottage out there, I think, two years before we started looking at this place. There was more and more talk of Prince Edward County, and yet there weren't that many places to stay. The Drake Devonshire was opening up around the same time, but they were only 10 rooms. The other options were dingy roadside motels or old-school B&Bs.

We saw that there was this motel and we thought, "It can be a blank slate. It can be whatever we really want it to be." Really put ourselves in our own shoes and the shoes of our friends and said, "If we were going out to wine country for the weekend, what is it that we would want to have?" Kept going back to that as we thought, "How do we take this dingy roadside motel and make it into a it destination for people to travel to?"

Shaun: Now all of a sudden, as you're going through this process, you have to think, what is that it in the it destination? It sounds like you were using your own wants and desires to be the guiding force, correct?

Sarah: Yes. We like to call ourselves moteliers. We weren't the first moteliers, but I think we were the first in Canada. We were looking people were doing this in Miami and Texas. We were finding some good inspiration out there. We knew others had been able to take these dingy roadside motels and turn them into something cool. I think the other thing was back to April and I having no experience in hospitality before this, it really gave us fresh eyes as we looked at the entire experience and so went step by step.

One example of that is hotel check-in processes. Everywhere you go, some are starting to get better, but overall, they suck. They're slow. They're boring. They're often impersonal and they take a weird amount of time. This is back in 2016 and we're like, "You know what would make this better?" The very first thing that we did was do is like, "Hey, are you checking in? Would you like a glass of welcome rosé?"

Right away, that makes the checking process significantly more fun and sticks out, and gives us a chance to really warmly welcome guests to The June. That was just one example, but we kept going piece after piece of this experience and what we could do to make it not just a place to stay, but be an experience and a home base for people when they're traveling in wine country.

Shaun: That is that feeling when you show up anywhere and they say, "Here's your welcome drink." I'm like, "Can I charge this to my room?" "No, no. This is on us." That's so nice.

Sarah: It's so nice.

Shaun: That was something that obviously you would wanted in your own experience wherever you guys went. When you pictured the girls going away, Prince Edward County, just for a weekend, how much of those ideas played into and then certainly clashed a little, probably, with the motel when you went there, and you're like, "Oh, can we even make that dream a reality?"? April, how much of that was a challenge to bring together in the ideas process?

April: I think, again, like Sarah said, we really saw that motel as a blank slate. There was nothing we were really attached to. We could wallpaper with funky palm wallpaper. We could put the neon signs up. We had this strong vision and we had this blank slate that we could apply it to, but it was pretty hilarious. I think we had such a strong vision, but we had engaged so many family and friends in helping us to create The June and the first motel in Prince Edward County. It was like we were home stretch, we're a couple of months away from opening, and we had that last big decision to make, which is, what color do you paint the doors?

We had a really strong vision for a perfect shade of millennial pink, almost like it was a little sun faded like it had always been there. Again, we drew such inspiration from places like Miami and California and we knew what we were trying to create. When we asked all of our family and friends what color or what shade of pink they liked best, every single one of them was absolutely horrified that we were going to paint those doors pink.

Somebody even said, "You don't expect the fishermen to come if the doors are pink. No fishermen are going to stay at a motel with pink doors." It was in that moment that we realized they don't really understand what we're creating here. They're supportive, they're showing up, but they don't really understand our vision. It's our job to stay true to that and stick to it, and so we painted those doors pink. Honestly, it was one of the most iconic elements of The June .

Shaun: Oh, that's so awesome. You had, like salmon, going upstream, heading towards the old Sportsman's Lodge to be gutted in a room. You guys were going upstream and you had lots of resistance out of the gates. Let's just take a step back for a second because government worker, publicist, a big idea. This can't be cheap. You guys are starting out-- obviously. it's 2016 markets. Is it cool to ask, we're talking to REALTORS® here, what was the price point of this building to get started and how did you manage to pull that off?

Sarah: 2016, Prince Edward County, times were different, and I think motels too. We were, again, on the early side, so not everyone was seeing these places the way we were. Our friends were out there buying houses in Toronto in the $1 million range. That's the same thing that we were looking at motels in Prince Edward County. We also joke, if our budget had been higher, we probably would have looked at historic inns or waterfront resorts, but motels were in the price range where we could figure out how to pull the financing together.

Getting into the numbers a little bit there, so we bought just right around a million. We got great advice from our lawyer to try and get them the sellers to do a vendor take-back mortgage. Banks were a little iffy on this boutique motelier or motel idea. Instead of getting a traditional bank loan, we were able to have the vendors have about a 50% mortgage on the property, which was great.

Budget's tight, this is our first time doing it. We had a renovation budget of $250,000, which that's to renovate 16 rooms, a lobby, the exterior, landscaping, indoor-outdoor lobby bar. To this day, $250,000, crazy what we managed to do with that, but it did mean April and I were rolling up our sleeves and inviting friends and family out on weekends saying, "Come to wine country and bring stuff to wallpaper and lay flooring."

Shaun: Right. Was that discouraging at first, or were you guys like, "We are leaning into this."? Could you see how satisfying that was going to be, or was it just like, "Oh my God, why am I doing this ourselves?" Other people get crews. How much of it was satisfying, how much of it was terrifying, or all of the above?

Sarah: Again, we didn't maybe make this clear, but April and I ran the Sportsman Motel for a season.

Shaun: Oh, as the Sportsman Motel?

Sarah: As the Sportsman Motel.

Shaun: Hey.

Sarah: We were checking in the fishermen. Oh, yes.

Sarah: This was living our Schitt's Creek era.

Shaun: Oh, wow.

Sarah: Yes, but midway through that season, we knew that's not what the envision was. Midway through the summer, we tore out one of the rooms and DIYed the renovation to one room and we called it the prototype room, which was an amazing exercise and something we still do to this day, was see the transformation, get a sense what's working, what's not. Right off the bat, got that little bit of inspiration. We still say that year of renovating was so fun. We were superhuman. I don't know how we did it, and to this day have never been able to do it quite at that level of involvement again. We really created that place. Every aspect of it, April and I touched and designed and installed. It was pretty amazing.

April: I think we also only remember the positive highlights. That's what sticks with you, but there were some dark days of it's the middle of winter and you're going back into that room to lay some more flooring,-

April: -you're covered in glue everywhere. It was a lot.

Shaun: You are still friends.

April: Yes.

Shaun: That to me sounds like a miracle unto itself. What were, if you don't mind sharing, some of the creative differences that you were able to find alignment on? Tell me a bit about that process because that had to have been a challenge as well.

Sarah: Let's fast forward maybe for that because it's been almost eight years, I think, since we did that. We've opened in Beaver Valley. I'm sure we'll hopefully chat about that a bit.

Shaun: Oh, for sure.

Sarah: April and I think it's good. I think it's great to have a business partner that you challenge one another, that you don't always see eye to eye on everything. April and I, it tends to be the little things that we will strongly disagree with one another on. Our latest project, it was what side of the bed the garbage cans were going to go on. Was it going to be the first thing when you walk in the room, are you going to see the garbage cans? Are you going to hide it on the other side of the bed?

Shaun: Take me through that process.

Shaun: How does one decide? Did you test it out? Did you flip a coin? How did that work out?

Sarah: The way that April and I tend to make these decisions is we'll go back and forth a whole bunch of times each of us making our point and arguing on why it's one or the other. In the end, there's always one of us that cares a little bit more about this decision than the other. In this case, April seemed to care more, although I've brought it up 100 times since, so maybe I do care. I think it's we both have a lot of trust in one another. We were willing to compromise every now and then on something, but I think The June is as great as it is because we're always bringing our own perspectives to it.

Shaun: Yes. I think that sounds like what comes from that design challenge is nothing but good because you guys are testing it, pressing it, and making sure. Then once it comes out the other side, it's going to be better for everybody. Let me ask, which side did it end up on?

Sarah: It's hidden. You walk in the door and you may never know that there's a garbage can there.

April: Also, not an eyesore.

Shaun: Right.

Sarah: Shouldn't have gone for the really expensive garbage can, should we have?

Shaun: I love that. June Motel. How did this name come about? How is June? What is June? Is it the month? I can assume it's a summer vibe, June Motel. Tell me about how the name came to be.

April: We get asked this question so much that I honestly wish there was some great-grandma June that I could tell you about. Not the case. June is a made-up fictional character.

Shaun: Character?

April: Character. We loved the name June because it was a retro-feminine name, but it also had that start-of-summer feel. When we came up with the name, we really developed a whole personality around who June is. She lives for summer, she loves a girl's getaway, she's a little bit old school, she's bold and free-spirited, and she's always chilling with a bottle of rosé for days like today because she believes in living the good life.

She's become a bit of our North Star. Every time we have a difficult business decision to make, a design decision to make, or we're even just thinking about where's that next property, we always stop, we ask ourselves, what would June do? I think because we have gotten to know her so well over the years, she really does keep us on track and keep us focused and doing what we do.

Shaun: Wow. This is such a beautiful picture, I can see. Here's a question. Who would play June in the made-for-TV movie about this fictional character? Who would you want to see play June in the movie about the birth of this amazing idea?

April: That's such a tough question because I think she's got a lot of different elements to her personality. It's tough to come up with one person. This is maybe more back when we created June in the beginning. She had a much more hippie, free-spirited vibe to her. I think she's evolved from there. Somebody I always pictured was Kate Hudson in Almost Famous. I think that visual has certainly stuck with us. She's fun, she's free-spirited, she's into wellness and yoga, and all of those things. She's grown up with us.

Shaun: Right, and she's your North Star.

April: Yes.

Shaun: Talk more about this North Star idea. Having that particular vision and a personified vision, how has that characterization of this brand helped in other ideas that you might have as you move forward?

April: I'll give you an example. First of all, we created The June in Prince Edward County. We went through this whole process of who June is. Then when we found that second property in Sauble Beach, we knew we didn't want to create exactly what we had created in Prince Edward County, but who is June in Sauble Beach? I think that whole exercise of who June is and really knowing her and thinking now about a new destination really helped us to evolve her a little bit. It was now like, "June has this cool beach house. What does that look like? What's the design aesthetic? How do we stay true to who June is but evolve her in a new location, in a new experience, and identity there?"

Shaun: Sauble is a different vibe than the Prince Edward County vibe?

April: Yes. We like to say that there's very similar characteristics. June is very feminine. She's bold. She's free-spirited. She loves patterns and wallpaper and those things, but how it shows up is a little bit different at each property. In Prince Edward County, it's the palm print wallpaper. In Sauble Beach, it's this sun-faded wave wallpaper.

Shaun: That's in this style and design. One thing it sounds like you guys have done a really great job at doing is finding a niche target audience. Talk to me a bit about that. Talk to me a bit about staying true to that niche market. Who is your niche market?

April: It started as girls' getaways. It started as Sarah and I saying, "Hey, we're going to Prince Edward County with our girlfriends. What would we want?" We really leaned into that girls' getaway message, all of our photography with pictures of girls on wine trips at the motel. It also evolved from there. I think for us in the early days, it being all about us, designing this experience around us and what our girlfriends would want gave us such a clear picture of who that audience was. We could really visualize it. I think step one is just gaining that clarity.

It informs so much. It's like, what are the visuals that you see on social media? For us, it was a lifestyle photo shoot with a bunch of girls sipping wine in our lobby bar. Really bringing that story and that niche audience to life so that when she's scrolling Instagram, she sees that photo. She can see herself in that environment and she connects instantly with that. It's also all the copy, all the messaging, your newsletters. I think when you're speaking to a smaller, more niche audience, it's much easier to develop copy and messaging that is speaking directly at that person or to that person rather than having to be vague and be for everybody.

Beaver Valley is very couples-focused, but what we've realized, we've been at this for nine years, is the girls that were coming to The June in Prince Edward County were celebrating their bachelorette parties. They went and they got married and they have a husband now. Maybe they have kids five years later, and so really being able to grow the brand with her and focus on her as the buyer. She is the one that's making the travel decision. She's deciding to stay at The June, whether it's with her girlfriends, her partner, or her whole family.

Shaun: Right. There was no fear of exclusion there, I guess. It was more just staying true to your vision. Right, Sarah?

Sarah: Yes. I think we like to say that we are for anyone, but we're not for everyone. The audience that actually comes to stay at The June can look all very different and we are going to welcome them as warmly as we can and make sure that they have the best time. I think there's times where we've leaned into understanding who our core target is and what their needs are.

One example of that is we're really tech-forward. It's text message concierge and sometimes we're texting you your room code. It is that tech-savvy experience. As a business, we need to make some of those decisions and really lean in in some cases. I think it's okay to really lean into a niche. One of the things we also know is women make-- it's somewhere between 70% and 90% of travel decisions out there on behalf of whoever they happen to be traveling with. Again, creating this brand that really speaks primarily to her has really resonated and brought all sorts of people to The June.

Shaun: You feel that leaning into that niche market has really paid off?

April: I would accredit that to certainly a ton of our traction in those first couple of years. I think people saw us on Instagram, they saw the pink doors, they saw the photos that these girls were taking with the neon sign behind us and all of that. That started to create that word of mouth and brand recognition and really helped us sell rooms.

Shaun: Yes, that's amazing. Especially when you find success, when you guys start growing, expanding, ready to take over the world, it's good to hear that The June Motel and what you choose specifically was wired inside of you is to say, "No, you know what? We're going to stay true to our own voice to be an original voice and not some broad, generalized version of that. Have you ever had an Atom boys hockey tournament come through town and stay at The June Motel? I would imagine there needs to be room for these fellas too.

Sarah: Not yet. I think last year I was saying eight-year-old boys come and they love The June so much. They have a great time. We've got campfire s'mores, we've got lawn games. It's a paradise. Parents are having a great time too and motels are really well set up. Again, we've leaned into one target market, but it does still mean the people who enjoy the experience is really still pretty broad and we're going to make the most of every person's stay.

Shaun: It sounds like you're definitely hitting the market that I would need to have now. I used to be very, "I want to find these cool, young couples, me and my wife," and now with kids is like, "I need to have a bit of that vibe where I feel like I'm still that young party guy. At the same time, the kids have got to be able to go and do something fun as well." It sounds like you're hitting-

April: All the way.

Shaun: -all of that as well. Do you feel that there's some-- I wouldn't say resistance, but there is some expectation amongst investors? Do you have investors now? Are there other people that you have to please, that you have to make sure that they're happy with what's going on? How much are you still able to be like, "No, this is what we're doing one hundo. You can't shake us."

Sarah: One of the things we've been able to do and chosen to do is to grow without taking on investors outside of a small group of family that supported us along the way who really believe in what we're doing. As we continue to look to grow, we are looking for investors that understand what it is we're doing and believe in it. It's also proven it's successful as well.

Shaun: Yes. Boss. That's all I will say is boss. I love it. It's inspiring. It's amazing and probably really challenging in the world we live in now to stay true to that voice. Kudos to you guys for doing that. It's amazing. Talk to me about the future of June. You guys went from starting in Prince Edward County. Take me through the journey from starting there, then to Sauble. Now you have some future endeavors happening, and there was a Netflix show in there as well.

Shaun: Talk to me a bit about that.

April: There was. We opened The June Prince Edward County in 2017. I would say it was about a month or six weeks after opening that we really saw immediate traction. We were sold out that first summer. We were featured in Vogue. It was a wild ride that first year. We knew that there was such an opportunity. We needed more rooms for the demand that we had. Then on the flip side, we also loved the process of finding that diamond in a rough motel, re-imagining the entire experience of staying there. That was really what lit us up. I think we realized that when the renovation was done and it was just day-to-day operations, we were like, "Now what? We got to go buy another one."

We spent about a year and a half looking at destinations across Ontario and Quebec. We eventually came across this really charming little motel in the town of Sauble Beach. We knew the proximity to Bruce Peninsula, that there was a ton of opportunity in this whole region and that so many people were going there. There was no boutique motel accommodation and we could really fill that gap. As we were actually going through the process of buying this place, a friend of a friend, a friend of actually our graphic designer, was looking to create a show about a motel renovation.

She takes us out for a drink. She's like, "I have this great idea. You guys need to go buy another motel so that we can make a TV show." We're like, "We're actually already buying another motel in Sauble Beach." It was just these two projects really coming together at the same time. We went ahead, we purchased the motel. It was about six months later that we found out that Netflix wanted to make the show. Everything started. A couple of months after that, we were filming, we were renovating, and this is right before COVID hits.

Shaun: Oh, wow.

April: It's a whole disaster.

Shaun: A disaster you mean when COVID hit?

April: Yes.

Shaun: I assume this is all in the show.

April: It's all in the show. We had a completely demoed motel. Everything was taken apart. We were really just getting into the renovation at that point, and so there was no going back. Everything was gutted. Nothing was put back together. Construction had to come to a halt. Filming had to come to a halt. We're just sitting on this motel for months seeing our bank accounts drain, giving back deposits at our other motel in Prince Edward County because we had a full calendar of bookings that we couldn't open, we couldn't operate.

It was extremely scary time for us, but it has a happy ending. Construction resumed, filming resumed. Materials were impossible to get and we managed it all. The show is like a race to the finish line. I think it's five days before we're opening and we're still building the pool deck. It's not a lie. It was reality. It was a lot of tears.

Shaun: Nothing was invented. No producer was like,-

April: No.

Shaun: -"You know what would be a good conflict here?" It's, no, this was all as raw and reality TV as possible.

Sarah: Yes. I think early days, they were trying to find the conflict. We're getting along, things are going well, and then the pandemic, just TV gold.

Shaun: Yes. Right. We'll go back to what that hotel was when you bought it. What was it? Was that also a Sportsman's Motel? How did you land on that particular property?

April: It was partly the destination and we knew that there was opportunity in the destination. It was also the property itself, it was bigger. It was 24 rooms. It had a pool and a restaurant that had never operated in 10 years. It had this separate building that would eventually become the lobby bar. It was a step up in what we were looking for and it had a lot of mid-century motel charm. We saw the potential in it and we were excited to have a pool finally at the motel.

Shaun: How's that business doing now?

April: Great. Sauble Beach is killing it. It's super seasonal, so we open from May to October every year. We are mostly sold out there, every day of the week, all summer long. It's a really crazy intense period at that motel.

Shaun: Describe Sauble Beach before June Sauble and describe it after. By bringing that vibe into that strip, it wasn't always that. That vibe you said did not exist there, correct?

April: No, not from a hotel perspective. When we went there the first time, we did meet a few other people that were doing really cool things, which is always a really good sign, I think, when you're going into a new market. There was the wellness refinery and they were creating healthy smoothie bowls and avocado toast. It was a very cool, trendy little café, restaurant.

Then there was also a double-decker taco bus that was also super cool. Both female, young entrepreneurs doing just interesting things there. We, I think, saw those as a really positive sign that there was opportunity and that this place was evolving, and that our guests would have other things in this area that would be exciting and fit what they were looking for.

Shaun: Did you guys ever go to Sauble Beach when you guys were younger?

April: No.

Sarah: Neither of us. The first time we went was to see this property.

Shaun: Oh, wow. Anybody who knows Ontario, whether you're in high school or college or cottage country people, but Sauble is so unique. Wasaga Beach was so unique. They all had their own little Midland, that area in Ontario. They all had their own little thing. Wasaga had its own vibe. Wasaga, it feels very bro. I think it still is pretty bro. Sauble didn't have that energy.

April: Sauble's much more family-friendly, a little bit quieter. There's really no nightlife, to be honest. Everything is very chill after sunset. It's such a special place. We're three minutes to the beach. Everybody walks down to the beach to see sunset every night. It's really stunning. It's 11 kilometers of gorgeous sandy beach.

Shaun: Yes, it's beautiful. Tell me then now about your next property.

Sarah: Sure. After Sauble Beach, April and I just got the itch again to find a property. I think we're fast-forwarding, so this is 2021 that we're really in our first season in Sauble Beach. Things have changed by then. Everything's gotten a lot more expensive, and so we've really had to be a bit more patient to find the right property, the right price. What we're looking for wasn't really coming up, but then there was this one place. I've got the REALTOR® app. I have my saved searches.

There was this one that I looked at, had put aside because it was only eight rooms. One day I was going back through what I had liked and saved, and there's this eight-room lodge in Beaver Valley, which is 20 minutes outside of Collingwood. It was right on Beaver River. It was a minute away from Heart's Tavern, which was one of Canada's best new restaurants, I think, in 2022. It felt like a place that was worthwhile checking out. When we visited, we found it very, very charming.

Shaun: Only eight rooms.

Sarah: Only eight rooms.

Shaun: Right, which is different from your 24 leap. You went from 16, 24, and now you're entertaining an 8-room.

Sarah: Yes. It meant we had to really think about, is this the right fit? There's a couple of reasons why we liked this idea of a smaller property. One was that we kept having groups that wanted to have exclusive access to the motel. With 16 rooms or 24 rooms, we were just a little bit too big to be able to accommodate that. With these eight rooms, a bachelorette could come in, they could take over the whole property, a corporate retreat, a wedding. We had been getting a lot of requests. I think that was something that, after the pandemic, was really desirable for people to just find these spaces to come together.

It's also a place where it's really like you're in nature, which I think was also something that people were craving. With Beaver Valley, so this was-- what year is it now? This would have been, I think, 2023 that we purchased it. I had to get creative. We've gone contactless there. Airbnb, a lot of people got pretty comfortable with being texted a code, and so we're like, "We don't need someone to just wait around all day to welcome guests. We can just find this interesting balance between an Airbnb and one of our motels. If you want to come for just a night and get just one room, we can accommodate that. If you want to take over the whole property, then we can also do that."

It's been a really interesting exercise. We opened about a year ago now and we're really excited. I didn't mention it's close to Collingwood. In Ontario, that's some of the best skiing that we have, and so we're pretty close to that. We finally have our first year-round property, which is exciting.

Sarah: Oh, that's awesome.

April: A really special place. Professionally, it was also a really great experience for April and I as we've grown. The first motel fully designed by us, fully renovated by us. This one, we've grown over the years and got the chance to work with Ashley Montgomery designs as an interior designer, worked with a great general contractor and his team. April, I, still end up doing a little bit of heavy lifting all the time, but it was a really great way to see how we can grow and work with great people.

Shaun: That's amazing. Going from a couple of friends sitting around drinking some wine to now being incredibly successful business people, do you take time and reflect on that very often, or are you just in the tornado all the time?

April: I feel like these podcast interviews, and we do some speaking gigs, it's always fun to think about our story and our journey. I feel like those are moments where we actually got a chance to reflect on those early days and relive some of those memories. Other than that, we're always thinking, "What's next? What's next?"

Shaun: That's awesome. That's so good. Is there something next? What is next? Is that next a part of The June? Is it all June? Is the brand June for every property?

April: Yes. It's The June Motel. We shorten it, so it's like The June Prince Edward County, The June Sauble Beach, The June Beaver Valley. We think that we've created something really special there. There's a lot of brand awareness that we've built. We have the Netflix show. It feels right to continue to leverage the name and the brand that we've built. It's something we're excited about. They will continue to be June Motels for as long as we think that has potential.

Shaun: I do love the personification once again. You've got the young, sassy, we're going to have a girl's weekend. Then June ends up marrying, having kids, goes to the Sauble. She obviously has a terrible breakup with her husband and then wants to just be alone. "I don't want to talk to anybody. I want a contact list. I want to hide out in Beaver Valley and go skidooing, become a survivalist." Wherever June ends up, I would like to see what's next.

By the way, just for the record to all the REALTORS® watching, they did not hire me to do any of their publicity because I am terrible, but I like having fun with this character. I love June. In terms of what's next, will it just present itself, do you think, when you see it you know it, or do you have a vision plan now, it's like, "We are ready to take over the world. June is ready to take over the world."?

Sarah: I think somewhere in the middle. We know we want to keep growing. We are always looking out for that next property. We're two people that want some work-life balance as well. I think our new plan is goal is to keep growing, but we want to wait. Finding the right property is so important for us. You just can't rush. There's not always the right place at the right time, and price and cost of everything. We're ready, but we're really just waiting for everything to align perfectly for that next one.

Shaun: Your story is so relatable to a lot of REALTORS® out there, obviously, whether the REALTORS® are dealing with individual families looking for their first single-family home or an idea around a business idea. What advice would you have for REALTORS® about finding that niche market?

April: I think it's similar to what we've been talking about. It's hone in on what makes you different and lean into that. Not trying to be for everybody, but what is it that you bring to the table that's special, that's different, and own that.

Shaun: Sarah?

Sarah: I think what April said. I think that personification, sometimes even stepping away from who you are, but I think that exercise has worked really well for us. Maybe it's this alter ego character that can help you really think about who your business is representing.

Shaun: Awesome. Where can everybody find all of your assets? Not just the hotels, but in terms of socials and all of that. Tell us about that because I want to right now go follow all of them myself.

April: They're all under one social. It's @TheJuneMotel on Instagram and it's thejunemotel.com.

Sarah: Come book your stay. Come visit.

April: Yes.

Shaun: Oh, yes. I want to hit all of them too. I'll pay for my wife. I'll let her go to Prince Edward County. We've been in Prince Edward County. I've done standup in Prince Edward County. I love it so much. There's a surf scene in Prince Edward County too.

Sarah: Yes.

Shaun: I didn't even know that. It's incredible. Man, it's such a unique area. Then, of course, Sauble Beach as well, it's just so cool. I want to be gifting trips and going myself to all these amazing places. Thank you, guys. This has been so inspirational and exciting. It's so good to hear original stories, original ideas by two amazing boss ladies. It's awesome. I have two daughters and I'm going to share your story with them as soon as I can. They're three and five, so they may-

Sarah: Thank you so much.

Shaun: -not quite get the whole wine thing. but they'll get it. Mommy's aligned. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us on REAL TIME. This has been a great chat.

April: Thank you for having us. This was awesome.

Shaun: Awesome, guys. June Motels. The thing that makes you special, that's the thing that people will connect with. Once you find that quality, that offering, that experience, that's going to help you build a community that really, really resonates. Now, you may not get your own Netflix show out of it, but it'll always connect you with the right people, and that's never a bad thing.

If you like today's episode, make sure you head on over to your favorite podcast platform, like and subscribe, rate us and review. We really do appreciate it. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA, and production courtesy of Alphabet® Creative. Thanks so much for joining me today. I'm Shaun Majumder. We'll see you next time on REAL TIME.

Sarah: Right before this, I stuck a ball in the fringe because it's Friday.

Shaun: Love it. That cost you nothing, so that's good.

Sarah: Yes.

View Details

Data tells a story, but context helps bring it to life. Earlier this month, the Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA) released its resale housing market forecast for 2025 and 2026, anticipating a busy market—starting as early as this spring—as buyers move off the sidelines.

Shaun Cathcart, CREA’s Director and Senior Economist, Housing Data and Market Analysis, joins this episode of the REAL TIME podcast to unpack the housing market outlook; what’s happening in different regions of the country; and how advances in housing technologies could help address housing supply shortages.

Transcript

Shaun Cathcart: Prices went up a lot during COVID and they were expensive. Then interest rates went up and those were expensive.

Shaun Majumder: What do you think is going to happen to the Canadian housing market?

Shaun C: I think they're waiting for the bottom to know that now is the time to lock in.

Shaun M: Where is the Canadian housing market headed? This is a question everybody wants an answer to, but unless someone invents a reliable crystal ball, we're never going to have a firm answer. Data, and when I say "data," I don't mean what my kids call me all day every day, "Dada, dada, dada." No, I'm talking about data. Data can certainly paint a telling picture of what's to come along with expert assumptions and risk analysis. Today, we are being joined by Shaun Cathcart, CREA's Senior Economist. We're going to dive deep into the Canadian Real Estate Association's housing market forecast for 2025. There's a lot to get into, so let's get started.

This is my very first episode of hosting REAL TIME. I'm so stoked. I'm very thankful that not only did they present me with my first guest that has the exact same name as me, but to ease me in, they wanted to make sure they scoured the internet. The only person who was available that had the same spelling as me was Shaun Cathcart, senior economist for CREA. This works out so perfectly.

Shaun C: It does. How does it feel to have a super common short name that has three different spellings?

Shaun M: I know, Shaun, Senior Economist for CREA. Wow, this is a great way to start my tenure here because you are the man that holds the key. You are the gatekeeper to this year's forecast. I've watched your presentation on the big stage in the parliamentary bureau office, wherever that was. It was pretty powerful. How did that feel, first of all? That's got to feel like a lot of pressure on your shoulders. You're the one coming out with the forecast. You're the one presenting it to the world. How did that feel doing that?

Shaun C: Well, one thing that was tough about it was I tend to go on and on. I do presentations around the country all the time. I say 45 minutes is the perfect amount. I can go on that long. Otherwise, I'm cutting out important stuff. For this one, I only had 10 minutes. That was difficult to figure out how to jam that much into that time without talking way too fast, which was also something I was told not to do.

Shaun M: Right.

Shaun C: Then in behind the scenes of that thing, you're in these wood-paneled rooms, way in the dark corners of West Block. You're walking through this maze to get to it. Then there's all these flags and you got to go be quiet. You get counted in and then you walk in and then you do it. It was definitely much more formal than what I'm used to.

Shaun M: You know what it is? It is serious. It's very important. Canada is in what they call a housing crisis. We're going through major heavy changes all over the world right now politically, economically. There are so many things that seem like are actually happening. I watched you present this information. You did a great job. For me, not being immersed in the weeds of data, you presented it very clearly. I was really excited to come and talk to you today. I did have some questions about the data. Tell me, where this data comes from? Who sources it? How do you pull from it? Which data do you pull from to present this forecast?

Shaun C: Sure. Well, the first one is the data that we're actually forecasting, which is data that we at CREA, and real estate boards, and associations across the country produce and put out into the world. That's the data that comes off of all of the transactional listings and sales that are happening on all of Canada's MLS systems. That's the entire existing home market.

The big chunk of the housing market that really tells the story is the data that we and our boards and associations across the country collect and aggregate and then we put it all together into one big Canada database. That's the data that we actually forecast, but the data we pull in comes from everywhere, right? It comes from CMHC. It comes from Statistics Canada and the Canadian Housing Statistics Program. It comes from the Bank of Canada.

It comes from private sector forecasts for all of the things that affect housing like population growth and GDP growth and income growth and mortgage rates. There's other people that are experts in forecasting that stuff that put that out into the world that we bring in as inputs to our forecast. We're really going out there and finding every piece of information that can help us do that that's out there, but the data that we're mainly talking about in forecasting is the data that we put out into the world.

Shaun M: When we talk about forecasting in the housing market, is it a forecast or is it more of a state of the union like state of the industry, "This is where we're at and this is where we can see ourselves going over the next year"? Do you focus on a year? Do you focus on quarters? How does that work? What's a forecast and what's, "This is where we're at"?

Shaun C: Best forecasting advice is the further you go out, the bigger your error term gets. We don't want to go out five years from now when who knows what's going to happen, as you mentioned, one or two weeks from now? We typically, as is a practice around the forecasting world, forecast for the current year out to the end of that and then the next one.

The main focus is always what's going to happen this year because that's where you have the best current information about the trends exactly where we are. Like you mentioned, where we are is so important, right? What's a starting point for this? Are we starting at a decade low? Even if you got a big increase, you're still not doing that great. Are we starting at a record high and ticking down a little bit? Ooh, it's a decline, but it's still a really strong year. That's all context that goes into this and that's important to know as well.

Shaun M: Take me through. How are we doing? What's the forecast?

Shaun C: Well, that's a tough question. Let me start at the Canada level. We're going to have to get into some regional stuff because there's vast differences right now as there always is, although this is a bit of an Uno reverse card compared to history. I'll start with the Canada numbers. We are starting off on the sales side low because we've been in an inflation crisis. Prices went up a lot during COVID and they were expensive. Then interest rates went up and those were expensive.

People couldn't afford to borrow enough money to buy homes. A lot of people couldn't. The market has been very quiet. I called it a market in hibernation. Our forecast is that we think that's about to wake up probably this spring, but we're already seeing evidence of that in some parts of the country. On the sales side, good increase, but still a couple of years away from just getting back on track with what would normal would be. On the price side, we're going to see some gains there too because we still have a supply crisis in this country.

Shaun M: Right, so there's a supply crisis in the country. A lot of people are still on the sidelines because of inflation, because of the interest rates. What are happening with interest rates and how do you think that is going to affect these sideline buyers, central buyers?

Shaun C: If you go back six months, everyone was making predictions about how the Bank of Canada would-- when they would start. Everyone wanted to throw their hat in about like, "When the first one's going to be," even though it's more of a psychological thing. Then it was really the pace of how many they're going to do over what time period, and when are they going to stop. A lot of that has already played out.

Shaun M: You're talking about cuts?

Shaun C: Cuts, yes.

Shaun M: You're talking about mortgage rate cuts, right?

Shaun C: Exactly. From the inflation-fighting peak to where we are now is most of that has already happened. We're currently at 3.25% on the overnight rate. Between 2.25% and 3.25%, that's what the Bank of Canada considers neutral. As of the most recent cut, that's their foot basically off that brake pedal on the economy. We're still at the high-end of that, but I think there's only one more cut at this point penciled in for this year, which could be more, depending on how various other things I'm sure we'll talk about are going to play out in the months ahead.

For now, that would be a neutral interest rate. Where I think the important milestone is going to be is when the bank signals that they're done cutting because Canadians typically are risk-averse. They love their five-year fixed-rate mortgages. The time to lock that in is when the rates aren't going to go down again next month. When they're done falling, that's the best five-year rate you can lock in. You lock in and that's when people are going to buy houses in big numbers, I think.

Shaun M: Okay, can you explain to me someone who has been cross-border quite a bit between America and Canada and trying to even just see what the horizon looks like in America versus Canada? Explain to me this thing where in Canada, there's a five-year limit on a mortgage rate versus in America, you can get a 30-year fixed and there's no limits. Explain that difference between Canada and America and how they do their mortgages, please.

Shaun C: Yes, sure. One of the biggest differences between mortgage lending and housing in the United States and Canada is the way mortgage terms work. In Canada, you could go full-on variable. You could take a one-year fixed. You could take a two-year, a three-year. Those have been popular during COVID because everyone knew rates were going to go down. You don't want to lock in for five years. Historically, the five-year is the most popular and I think that's going to be the case again.

Whereas in the United States, the most popular term, the most common one is a 30-year mortgage. Depending on where interest rates are, here, people's interest rates reset. If you buy your home at a tough time when rates are really high, well, in five years from now, we can renew at a lower rate, hopefully. That's what people would hope for. Whereas in the United States, you're committing to that rate for a very long time.

The difference in the level that the markets went into hibernation during this high interest rate period was much more acute in the United States, where sales were at multi-decade lows because people were all saying, "Well, I'm not going to lock in this rate for 30 years when I know in a couple of years from now, it's going to be a lot better. I'm going to wait." Whereas more people in Canada were able to say, "Well, I could just take a two-year and do it now and then we'll renew in a couple of years." That's the biggest difference in how it's impacted the market over the last few years.

Shaun M: What is that? Tell me again. What do you think is going to happen now when the Bank of Canada says, "Okay, that's it. We're done with the lowering of the rates. This is the bottom"? What do you think is going to happen to the Canadian housing market?

Shaun C: Sure. Well, this is why I think our forecast is conservative because what have people been waiting for? They've been waiting for lower rates. They've got those. We're not quite to the bottom yet. I think they're waiting for the bottom to know that now is the time to lock in. They're waiting for, like we saw in September, a big burst of fresh new listings. You're going to the website every day. You're saying, "This is the year. We're ready to go."

It's January, it's February, it's March. You're looking and there's not a lot going on yet because it's the winter. Then all of a sudden, you hit the first week of April and, boom, the website blows up with all of these great new homes to go after. After years of record population growth and all these people waiting on the sidelines and looking for these particular things that are all going to happen all at the same time, that's why I think our forecast is conservative. I think we could see, actually, a real explosion of activity this spring.

Shaun M: Wow. What are the ages of people that are going to be jumping back into this market if they've been holding off on the side? Because something that I've been hearing a lot about is that for young people, it's near impossible to even get into the market right now, both in America and in Canada. How is that going to affect the younger consumer out there?

Shaun C: Right, that's a tricky question. If you think about the number of first-time buyers that are out there, a lot of them can and will get into the market. A lot of them, to your point, will not still be able to. The affordability, especially in places like British Columbia and Ontario where housing's expensive, there will be people that just feel priced out. As some surveys have said, they feel that forever.

Some of them are moving around the country because of that. Even if a fraction of that demand that's on the sidelines comes off all at once, that's still going to look like a really big increase, just not as big as it otherwise would have been if housing wasn't still pretty unaffordable. I guess that's how I'd answer that. In terms of ages, I would guess early to mid-30s for first-time buyers who otherwise would have bought a few years ago and then rates went up. There's a bit of delay in that typical first-time homebuyer purchase.

Then also potentially people closer to my age in their mid-40s to 50s, who may have wanted to be move-up buyers. Even taking on that extra, whatever it is, $200,000 in mortgage debt to get that extra bedroom would have tripled your mortgage payment in the last few years. Those move-up buyers too, which is good because you need those guys to free up the starter home for the first-time buyer to buy. As long as we can get some movement happening there, lower rates lubricates the housing market always.

Shaun M: Good, and that seems to be happening. Inflation is down obviously. It feels like we are coming out of that tight COVID time. What are the risks then when we talk about-- you can look at your crystal ball and you can say, "This is probably where this is going." However, these are the potential risks that may completely flip it upside down, or what are those risks?

Shaun C: The one I mentioned on the high side is that if the market just goes on a tear again like it did during COVID because of all that pent-up demand that it's going to very quickly overwhelm already limited supply. You'll have price growth that is headline-grabbing again. That offsets all of the affordability gains that lower interest rates offer. That's a high-side risk. It's just not a good situation. It's just where the data would be higher.

Then on the downside, obviously, the big one right now looming is a trade war with the United States that everyone's trying to put numbers on, but you can't put numbers on that. There are so many moving pieces to that one, right? If those tariffs come in the way that they've been suggested they might, but then there's the Canadian retaliation, and then there's what the Canadian dollar does, which offsets a bunch of the tariffs, and then there's what the central bank does that they lower rates even more.

Historically, sometimes you get into bad economic times in Canada. The central bank lowers rates and the housing market does really great despite everything else not doing so well. Then people are like, "Oh, housing's holding up the economy." To your point, if you're not fearful of losing your job in a recession, then if rates go down another 1.5%, 2%, that is what's going to allow a lot of those first-time buyers to get in. There's a lot of moving parts there. Ultimately, it's bad.

Shaun M: Yes, risk-wise, especially that trade war. Something that's been really insightful to me as I've done research and immersed myself more into understanding the general real estate market is how everything is connected. It's not just, "I would like to save to buy a house." It's so inclusive of all these pieces. Like you say, employment rates, the dollar interest rates, the relationship with America. We've had such an interesting relationship with America for many, many years.

Now, with the new administration and the outgoing potential change in Canada, people's heads must be spinning, and especially REALTORS® trying to manage, "How do I work with my clients to be able to get this person the dream that they've always wanted." That's what's been incredibly insightful. You talked a bit about Ontario and BC. Let's talk a little bit about the regions across Canada. I'd like to know. We talk about Canada generally, but is Canada just Canada and it's all the same across the board? Tell me a bit about that.

Shaun C: Absolutely not. I'll tell you what, there's a lot of people that get frustrated when we sometimes hit on those Canada numbers first as the headline number, which often doesn't represent any region very well. The average price in Canada right now is $700,000, but you know how many provinces are $700,000? None of them. Two of them are way above it and the other ones are all below it.

You really do have to go region to region. I know that most people would say in the last 10 or 15 years, "Well, we're not all Toronto and Vancouver. There's other things going on in Canada." If you go back to 2015 and '16, the first two markets that really got way ahead of this supply crisis trend seven, eight years ago was Toronto and Vancouver. The oil price crashed, all of this migration that had all been going to Alberta where you could make $200,000 driving a truck.

Suddenly, those jobs all evaporated and all of that went out first immediately to the lower mainland and GTA. Those markets went first, but it was really part of a bigger trend. That's why I referred to that. There's a meme online of the hand flipping the Uno reverse card for something. What you're seeing now in the housing market is the two coolest markets in a high interest rate environment are BC and Ontario that are the ones that are way below average for sales.

Price is not really doing anything for a very long time. If I wanted to name the ones that are pretty hot right now, it's everybody else. It's Alberta, it's Saskatchewan, it's Manitoba, it's Quebec, New Brunswick. Majorly for sure. Nova Scotia, a little bit less so because they've got Halifax in there, which is a bit more of an expensive market, with the high interest rates that holds them back a little bit. PI as well. Even Newfoundland and Labrador, you see prices just taking off.

Shaun M: Shaun, what constitutes a hot market? When I think about a hot market, does that mean prices are going up or does that mean prices are coming down and everybody's buying a house?

Shaun C: All right. Well, I don't want to put our viewers to sleep here, but I am going to give you the technical answer. What we do is--

Shaun M: Yes, we want some technical. We can have fun and juice and some tech. That's what you do best, is the data.

Shaun C: All right, so we have a metric called the number of months of inventory. It's taken from the industrial world where let's say you're building up your inventories in a factory or at a warehouse and you say, "At this rate that we're selling these things, if we don't manufacture anymore, how long until we run out of supply?" We're applying that same thing to the housing market.

It's all of the active listings that are out there on the market divided by the monthly pace of sales. If we didn't have any more listings, how long would it take for us to run out? It's a measure of how tight that market is, how strong demand is relative to supply. A hot market would be, you take the long-term average for that. In Canada, that's five months of inventory. You take a standard deviation below that, which in Canada is 3.6 months of inventory.

Once you hit that standard deviation below, that is a seller's market. It's the difference between one buyer and one seller negotiating that listing price down a bit and more than one buyer showing up and then battling it out amongst each other to bid it up to see who's going to win that multiple offer. That's when prices tend to really start to go up is when you have that imbalance of buyers and sellers.

Shaun M: Right. Right. If we were to go regionally now, let's start in the East. How would you define the East, the Maritimes, Newfoundland? Sometimes included in the Maritimes if you watch the weather report. Sometimes they're not. They're just Newfoundland and Labrador sitting out there all by themselves. Then you've got the Atlantic provinces, but let's put them all together. Would you classify them as a buyer or seller's market or is it even micro-specific as to what regions within the Atlantic provinces are buyer and seller's market? Take me through the Atlantic provinces.

Shaun C: Sure. They all behave a little bit differently and a little bit the same. Quebec, New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia act as this one group where their trends are always very similar over time. A PI is a different animal altogether. It behaves like cottage country almost or like a ski vacation area. There are so many vacation properties there. Newfoundland and Labrador is linked to natural resources and oil. It behaves like Alberta and Saskatchewan.

In general, everything east of Ottawa right now is a seller's market. Because they haven't had these really tight markets in the past, it's the first time a lot of them have ever experienced this, their natural number of months of inventory is higher. Even though their seller's markets and prices are rising, there's also scope for sales to keep going up because there's still a good amount of inventory for people to buy. That would be that group.

Shaun M: I think a lot of people, I found that interesting too, knowing, I'm from the Maritimes, originally, I'm from Newfoundland and spent lots of time in Nova Scotia, this trend right after COVID like how COVID has transformed so much of what we're talking about. Nova Scotia, housing market, pre-COVID versus after COVID, what a difference in pricing because everybody flocked to the east. They wanted to get to the ocean. They needed space. You could work from home.

Then boom, prices started going up because there was a high demand there. I don't know if that happened. Was everybody flocking from the big centers to Regina? I don't know if that was happening or not. I find that very interesting. Take me through central. You talked about Ontario. When I'm looking around and I'm thinking, "I love Ontario." For me, if I were to buy a house there, if it's a single-family home, it's outrageous how the prices have gone up there.

Shaun C: Right. The story on Ontario is the story that's been going on all over Canada. Really, it was less able to do this in the Lower Mainland because of geography. In Ontario, I always think of it as the concentric rings. First, it was Toronto that was expensive. They went through a period in 2010 where that was the first time that they had all these multiple offers and people weren't used to it. They didn't know how to handle it.

I remember the news stories at the time. It's like, "What's going on here?" They, in the space of one year, got much more expensive. Then we went into the winter and everything went quiet. The next spring, what happened was, boom, the exact same thing happened in Mississauga. We were like, "Oh, okay." Year after that, I wonder what's going to happen this year. Boom, Guelph does it and becomes much more expensive in the space of one spring and summer, fall period.

Then it was St. Catharines and then it was all the way up to Kingston and London and up to cottage country. It was basically all of the greater Golden Horseshoe before COVID. Then as you mentioned, COVID hit. You'd have to go to work or a lot of people didn't. That trend had been going on, I would say, for 15 years in a sense. Then it was just able to really go even further. If I like the sea, I'm going to go live in Interior BC. Prices there went up.

I like the ocean. I'm going to go live in Halifax. Prices there went way up during COVID. They were probably going to go up anyway, just from those markets becoming seller's markets. Then all of a sudden, you've got people who've just sold homes in Toronto or something, or bringing their Bay Street salaries with them, who are like $500,000. This is super affordable to us, right? Then also the double-edged sword of competing against the locals in all those places.

Shaun M: Ontario, as those rings went out now, where would people leave to go? If affordability became too much, where were people headed?

Shaun C: Let me give you what's going on right now. There was all that migration during COVID, which was more of a remote work thing, but it's continued. StatCan only releases this data once a year, but it's migration by age group. There's a really neat trend there. It's people from Ontario moving to various other parts in the country, but by age. People from Ontario who say, "I'm never going to be able to afford something that's on the ground," the term is called "ground-oriented," so not a condo in Ontario.

Where's their opportunity to do that? Alberta. That's your younger buyer, your millennial buyer. Our friend, David Coletto, at Abacus Data has amazing staff that they do in their presentations, which is the most common age of people in the last couple of years moving from Ontario to Alberta. I get people in the audience to guess, "You think it's 27? Do you think it's 34 or something?" The most single--

Shaun M: I'm going to guess. I'm going to guess. I think it's, yes, in the 21, when you come out of-- Maybe 23, 24, fresh out of college or seeing what's out there, "We got to get out of here. We can't afford that single-family home." No, I'm going to go a little older. I'm going to go 20, 28.

Shaun C: Basically, from the early 20s to the early 30s is the bulk of it. The most common single age is zero. Between zero and one-year-old infants. These are young people who are saying, "We'll never be able to afford something in Ontario." Once you have that first kid in a one-bedroom apartment, it's like, "Well, that's it." Another really interesting Ontario migration trend is Ontario to the Maritimes.

You know who that is? It's people basically 55 to 65. My prediction on that one was people that are close to retirement that have got expensive homes paid off in Toronto and their work called them up in 2022 and said, "Hey, we're all coming back to the office." "No, we're not. See you." They sold their home and they're living it up by the sea with early retirement. There's a lot of interesting trends coming out of COVID.

Shaun M: I love that. I love it. People are really caring about their own health and well-being. Imagine that.

Shaun C: Oh yes, self-care. Very important.

Shaun M: What about the middle, like right in the middle, Manitoba all the way over to the edge of Alberta, or is Alberta its own thing? It sounds like because of the oil sector and that industry and Alberta, generally speaking, they seem to do their own thing. Is there something between the prairies and Alberta or would you lump them all together as well?

Shaun C: They're somewhat the same and somewhat different like the Quebec and the East Coast. Yes, Alberta is different. They're more expensive. They have a bigger boom support. Calgary and Edmonton are bigger cities than Winnipeg and Regina and Saskatoon. In general, that natural resources from oil through to mining all exists in there. They've all had fairly boom times in the past unlike the East Coast, which lowers their natural average months of inventory.

For them to be a full standard below that, which they are, so their seller's markets now too, you're going to get price growth. Inventory is more constrained. There's less scope for sales to go up when you're already setting sales records today. Alberta was before interest rates even started to go down. What's going to happen there when all this additional demand comes into the market? It's going to mostly, I think, play out on the price side. It's going to play out as more buyers showing up for that listing unless they have a whole bunch of people list homes this year. The trend has not been in that direction the last little while.

Shaun M: Right. Then let's talk about BC because BC is such a unique, interesting place. There's the province and then there's Vancouver. When I'm looking at houses and I see any pricing that pops up in Vancouver, I'm just like, "What?" A single-family home. I can see why you think about Ontario and Vancouver or British Columbia being these outliers. Why are prices so high in Vancouver and in British Columbia?

Shaun C: Sure. Well, prices are high in British Columbia because of Vancouver and the Lower Mainland and Victoria, where the main cities are, that are expensive. You've been out there. It's gorgeous.

Shaun M: It's amazing.

Shaun C: It's also very geographically constrained. They didn't have the ability. When Toronto was doing those concentric rings for a decade, Vancouver did it for a couple of years up the Fraser River Valley to Chilliwack and ran out of any more rings to go. From there, prices just keep going up. Vancouver has always been expensive. In a sense, BC behaved very similar to Ontario with very high interest rates is that they're very cooled down. You almost think because they're the most expensive province that they would have cooled the most. To your point about Vancouver, it's unique in that it's so expensive.

It's not like first-time buyers are like, "Oh, I can't qualify for a $4 million mortgage." No, it's wealth that's changing hands for ground-related stuff out in Vancouver. Actually, another interesting tidbit about that that I've been thinking about a lot lately when we think about the Toronto condo story versus condos everywhere else is, there's some Canadian housing statistics program data that came out that was comparing the average size of condos across the country. The median condo in the last 10 years in Vancouver is 200 square feet bigger than the median condo in Toronto.

I was thinking, that's because Vancouver has been so expensive for so long, that culture shift that you have all kinds of other places in the world where people are like, "Yes, we live in apartments." Happened in Vancouver long ago, but I don't think it's really happened elsewhere in Canada just yet, which is why end-users show up to buy condos in Vancouver. They tell the developer, "Yes, I want 750 square feet or more." Whereas in Toronto, a lot of it's been investors showing up and being like, "Yes, I'm paying by the square foot here, so make it small." Maybe that doesn't affect prices as much, but they would be more expensive condos if they're in Vancouver and they're 30% bigger.

Shaun M: Right. Right. I hear about trends in condo markets, but I don't know enough about it. These trends would take away from the fact that, yes, there's no space to raise a family in these small condos. Are single-family homes the thing that we need more of and is that the source of the crisis? Let's talk about this crisis because I keep hearing crisis as well. First, just touch on the condo market and then I want to work into talking about this idea of what is a housing crisis.

Shaun C: Sure. Well, the condo market story you've been hearing about is coming from Toronto. A big part of it has to do with the size of the condos that they've been building. Not all of them, obviously, but a lot of them have crossed over this line of, "It's harder to live in here. It's harder to live in here. It's harder to live in here. I can't live in this. Too small." Maybe going forward, it makes sense to consider the person who's actually going to be living in the thing when you're designing it.

Shaun M: Take me into this idea of crisis because I know this is something that I'm hearing a lot about. You see it on social media all the time. Housing crisis, housing crisis. Politically, you see it thrown across in the House of Parliament, "We're in a housing crisis. We must solve this housing crisis." How much of it is hyperbole? How much of it is real? What constitutes a housing crisis? Is Canada really in a housing crisis?

Shaun C: I think so. It's only been called that for a few years. I certainly didn't coin the term, but it seems to be that way. I heard somebody say it really eloquently. If you go back to the 1950s, you can have a family of six on one income that could afford a detached bungalow in Midtown Toronto. I don't think that it's ever gotten more affordable. I think that just with the amount that prices went up during COVID and the amount that interest rates went up right after, we crossed a line where it went from less affordable, less affordable, less affordable to not affordable.

That's a difference not in degree, which we've had for decades, but in kind. That's where the crisis piece comes from. Do we need to build a lot more homes faster? Yes. There's different numbers out there. They're all really, really, really big, and I think the crisis part. Also, if you look at what we've been building over the last 20 years, we stopped building those big detached homes. We still build some of them, but not nearly as many as 20 years ago.

They're even bigger because, obviously, they're going to the people with a lot of money who are able to afford 15% to 20% of new builds that are detached. What we did was we talked a great game about the missing middle, townhomes and semi-detached and three-plexes and four-plexes. We shot right through and built all high-rise condos initially. Then in the last 10 years, tons of purpose-built rental apartments.

I think it's that missing middle that's still missing. If I'm a young person looking to raise a family, I can't afford one of these big single-detached homes that sits on this big piece of ground that could probably house three families but only houses one unit. I also can't go to the apartment side of things, whether rental or condo, because we haven't really been building these 1970-style big condos or things like they have in, well, all over the world, but you can think of Brooklyn.

If you live in Brooklyn, you're not going to have a detached home. You're going to have one of those brick walk-ups, but the apartment has three bedrooms in it, right? You raised a family in one of those things. You leaned out, yelled out the window. They had the clotheslines. There's a culture shift that happened long ago there and in the denser parts of cities before World War II, when people actually had to walk places, so it had to be walkable. Really, it's that missing middle piece.

Shaun M: What's happening with ownership? Is ownership down? Is it up? Then where do you see ownership leading in the next five to 10 years? Officially, you can't state that. You live inside this data. You're using data from 30 years ago. You're seeing trends from a long time ago. Where do you see that going? What do you think is the solution to this housing crisis?

Shaun C: Sure. Well, if you look at the homeownership, the main source of that is census data. It comes every five years. It'd be nice if it was a little bit more frequent. That starts in 1971 from a consistent basis that you can get from StatCan. That's 50 years ago. For 40 years, it went right up from about 60% to about 70%. Turned a quarter about 12 years ago, 13 years ago, and it's going straight down.

The last data point was 2021 when we sold a record number of homes in the ownership market. I think in the last couple of years, we don't have census data again until 2027. They run the census in 2026. We get the data in 2027. If I had to guess where it is now in 2025, it's probably gone from 60% to 70% all the way down to 65%. It might even be lower than that. Think of it as an upside-down check mark, but it's very odd for society-wide data.

This is every household in Canada, whether they are owners or renters, amongst the currently 17 million residential units we have. It's very odd for society-wide census data to behave that acutely. You think it would just be gradual and steady over time and boring. I think one of the big reasons is at the beginning of that data in the '70s, we were building a ton of purpose-built rental. Then for about three decades in the '80s, '90s, and early 2000s, we built almost none. What we were building, stuff that people can own.

That's what people had access to. People bought that stuff and owned it at higher rates. In the last 10 years, like I said, the main category of housing completions that's really gone from very low to dominant, something like 40% of completions, is purpose-built rental apartments. Structurally, within our 17 million units, there's just more stuff that is available for rent versus stuff that's available to buy. I think a big part of the homeownership rate story is just purely structural. It's people occupying what's available to be occupied.

Whether they're paying the bank a mortgage and some back to themselves or whether they're paying the owner of the building in rent is a function of the tenure of that building. That's not up to them. I don't know where that needs to land or what the policymakers' priority should be on that number. It seemed to me that a 70% homeownership rate is one where that's a really big middle-class owning homes, which does tend to be that forced savings plan and really build a lot of middle-class wealth for a lot of people historically.

Shaun M: When we talk about crisis, where does the crisis lie? It sounds like it's inventory availability to purchase these units. You said within the condo market, they may be on a lower price point, but they're also on a lower square-footage point. If I'm a young single family, two kids or a kid on the way, I'm not going to get that. I don't want that. I don't want to put the money into that. We're going to rent for a little while. Where do we rent? I don't know where to rent. Where do I want to live? Where do I work? I can work from home. Where do you see the opportunity for Canada to hedge this problem? How can we get out of this crisis in your opinion?

Shaun C: I see a lot of scope for growth in some of the stuff that we're missing, which is good. The first thing is the missing middle. The fact that we call it that, the word "missing" is right in the name. There's a lot of scope to do the thing that we all agreed for the last decade and more we should be doing and haven't done at all, which is larger apartments like a three-bedroom-type apartment, whether that's in the rental market or in the ownership market, but just generally missing middle.

That could be a lot of things. That could be a three-plex walk-up. I know they're changing zoning rules around, "You don't have to have two staircases anymore," which was the thing that was restricted. You can zone and say, "You can put a three-plex here now." If you have to have eight parking spots for it and two staircases, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't pencil for a developer, right? They're changing a lot of those rules. I think they're going through and finding those hurdles.

You got to get them all out of the way in order for these things to happen. A four-plex, whatever it is, a mid-rise-type apartment building with big apartments in it. Whether that's rental or ownership, it could be either one. Then the big thing that we've really been on is manufactured housing. You look at the numbers from CMHC or the parliamentary budget officer. The low one is double what we're currently constructing and then the other one is way bigger. You can't just double--

Shaun M: Wait, explain that to me. What does that mean? What is the low one and it's double? I don't understand what that means.

Shaun C: Oh, sure. The parliamentary budget officer, a current estimate was we need 1.4 million more homes by 2030, I think, or by the next decade to just catch up to the deficit we have. That's before we can go on forward to keep up. The CMHC number that's been around for a while now that everyone knows gets repeated the most but often misquoted is three and a half million over that same period.

If we're on track to build 1.5 and that's optimistic, 1.5 million, we'd have to go from that to five. It's completely not going to happen, but that's to rewind affordability back to what we enjoyed 20 years ago, whereas the PBO, the parliamentary budget officer one is just to play catch-up. They're measuring different things. That's why I say the low one, which is where we double our construction, that's the low one.

How do you do that? Do we double the amount of land that we have to build on and put all those roads and sewers in the next five years? Who's going to do that? Then we got to get double the number of construction workers and laborers and electricians and plumbers and carpenters and all the rest of it, right? Impossible. You can't do that. The idea of using the immigration system where we target skills that Canada needs, which we've done forever, is a good one.

Now, we're reducing immigration targets as well. I think that automation and productivity and Canada's got a major productivity issue, why not solve it in service of solving one of our biggest crises? You build in a giant factory with an assembly line with robotics and automation doing a lot of this work. You can build 24/7, 365. There's no noise bylaw when you're in a factory from 8:00 PM to 7:00 AM.

It doesn't matter if it's -30 in a blizzard. You're working the same. It's all about doing it faster. There's also mass timber and 3D printing and different technologies that we don't take advantage of that are operating here and there on very small scale. I think 2% to 3% of construction right now is these things when it should be half, but not as a zero-sum game taking away from the traditional stick-built detached home.

Those guys can build that over there. Over here, we can have people doing a big concrete building. In the middle, we can have this entire new industry filling in that middle piece. I think that there's a lot of money to be made in it. I think it makes a lot of sense. I think it's potentially an exportable thing, although maybe not. We'll have to wait and see how it plays out over the next little while.

Shaun M: Yes, exactly, depending on which way, which direction.

Shaun C: We're not going to raise this up overnight. What's really interesting is that a lot of these technologies actually lend themselves really well to building the exact kind of housing that we need. Modular units that are basically completely complete, you crane them into space to stack up a three-plex. You can put it on site. You can have it up in two weeks, or mass timber to build a mid-rise building. That's a bit of a match made in heaven there, I think. At this point, it's really about getting that into the conversation.

Shaun M: We're heading into a future that is pretty amazing. We just need to incorporate that in the Canadian market, it sounds like.

Shaun C: It's nice to have a source of optimism on this file because, for a long time, being really immersed in the numbers, like you said, I am, and seeing these numbers like this is how many million more houses we have to do for a while there. I was just saying, "Well, that's not going to happen." Sometimes it is a light bulb like that idea when we started doing a lot of research at CREA on that. Our policy analyst that was doing that, I started going over to his desk.

We started talking and I was like, "Tell me more about this. Tell me more about that." I had clued in. Then as soon as the idea started getting traction in my head, I was like, "This is it." It's like eight years ago, we said, "We just need to build more houses." It's not simple to do, but it's a simple idea. Just start building more houses because that's where we need to have our focus on. Now, the next phase is, "Okay, how do you do that?" This is that.

Shaun M: I love this idea. I do love the idea of an optimistic outlook. There've been some dark times that we're coming out of. I think, collectively, we're traumatized by a lot of this stuff. I do see that even REALTORS® watching this right now, we're looking at something that could have a real good uptick in the economy and in the housing market. On that, let's talk about REALTORS® real quick. What does this mean for REALTORS®? All of this, when we take your forecast information, how can REALTORS® take this information and then put it to work with their clients, with their businesses, in their communities? Talk to me a bit about that. How can REALTORS® take this information and unleash it?

Shaun C: Sure, provided cooler heads prevail and not thrown into a massive recession that changes all of this. Our forecast for things to wake up this year means that members all across Canada should be busier in 2025 than they were in the last few years. In Ontario and BC, it means you're going to be busier in a normal market where you get a client and say, "There's a lot of nice houses out there for you to look at right now."

You're not probably going to be in a multiple-offer situation. That's what we think of as a normal market from maybe before COVID or maybe you have to go back further than that. What does it mean if you're on the prairies or Quebec and the East Coast basically? All of that stuff that you were watching happen while your market's during COVID. In Ontario and BC in the last decade, that now is going to be your reality.

Part of that is learning and managing multiple-offer situations and your clients just understanding that prices are going to go up. In fact, it's easy forecast for me to make because all those places I just named, prices already are going up right now. We're going to hit the spring market. Like I said with that Ontario story, you have to wait for the spring to see what the story is going to be in the fullness of time. We're not too far away from that, so get ready.

I think the bigger picture here is we're going to have a market that wakes up. We're going to get away from the inflation story and we're going to come back to this housing crisis story. If that's a major topic that everyone's talking about, getting some of these new ideas in there is going to be critical to not just going on about how it's a crisis but actually doing something productive to actually start moving towards maybe solving it.

Shaun M: That's amazing, man. Listen, again, how thankful I am to have this be my very first episode of REAL TIME with the king of kings of data in Canadian real estate.

Shaun C: Where?

Shaun M: Shaun, thank you so much for this conversation. It's you, buddy. It's you, it's you. This has been so insightful and I'm really thankful. It looks like there is a lot of energy potentially about to be thrust into the market. That's really exciting. I can't thank you enough, man.

Shaun C: That's been really fun. I love doing this stuff. This is my life outside of my home life. I've been doing this for a very long time. It did get dark there for a while with the whole crisis talk and I think that we are entering into-- In some ways, it feels like we might not be out of all the dark times. I think that on this particular domestic issue that we have, that also is not just a domestic issue but an issue that countries all around the world are facing because they have the same demographics and the same issues. If we can be the country that starts to solve it and is an example for all those other ones, I think that'd be a really cool thing to be a part of.

Shaun M: Yes, Team Canada leading the way. I love it. Well, thanks again, Shaun Cathcart. We should definitely do a follow-up.

Shaun C: Yes, a lot of fun.

Shaun M: Awesome. There's a lot to be positive about when looking at Canadian housing markets as we head into, as what Shaun describes, a likely booming spring market. Of course, there's going to be unknowns but also trends and expert analysis to help paint a picture of what's to come. As always, if you want to know what's going on in your market, head on over to CREAstats.ca for the most up-to-date information.

REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association and produced by Alphabet® Creative. If you liked today's episode, make sure you head on over to your preferred podcast network. Give us a like. Write us a review. It's super appreciated. This was a lot of fun. I had a blast. This is my very first one. Guys, thank you so much for joining us today on REAL TIME and we'll see you next time on REAL TIME. Really. No, really, I mean it. I'm Shaun Majumder. Thanks so much.

Shaun M: That was awesome.

Shaun C: Is that the practice? Are we going to do it again now?

Shaun M: Yes, that was the--

Shaun C: I felt great.

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Connections, community, and curiosity. That’s what you can expect from the REAL TIME podcast in 2025. New host, actor and comedian, Shaun Majumder is ready to explore the world of Canadian real estate, cutting through the clutter and bringing a fresh take to some hot topics—all while keeping REALTORS® at the heart of the conversation. Real experts. Real insights. All things Canadian real estate. Right here, on the REAL TIME podcast.

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The REALTORS Care® moniker helps highlight the charitable efforts of REALTORS® across Canada. Since 2007, the Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA) has celebrated the remarkable contributions REALTORS® all across the country have made to a variety of causes close to their hearts..

On this episode of REAL TIME, we’re joined by Cindi Loforti Lepp and Ken Hammer, two REALTORS® nominated for the Canadian REALTORS Care® Award 2024 for their own incredible community impact. This is a feel-good conversation - listen in and be prepared to be inspired!

Transcript

Erin Davis: REALTORS Care®. You care about your clients, your business, and most importantly, your community. Since 2007, the Canadian Real Estate Association has been growing the national REALTORS Care® program to celebrate charitable achievements, advocacy, fundraising, and inspirational stories of REALTORS® using their collective impact to improve the world around them. I'm Erin Davis and welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS® brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association.

Erin: Today, we are joined by two nominees for the 2024 Canadian REALTORS Care® Award who have been beacons of hope in their communities, Ken Hammer and Cindi Loforti Lepp. They're here with us to share their inspiring journeys. Welcome to both of you and we're going to let you both tell us more about yourselves. We're going to start with you, Ken.

Ken Hammer: Well, thanks Erin and hi, Cindi. First of all-

Cindi Loforti Lepp: Hi, good to see you again, Ken.

Ken: -it's great to be a part of this. I think it's really important. I'll give you a brief background. I've been an academic for 33 years. I've also been a practitioner or an entrepreneur for the same amount of time, so I've always practiced as well as teaching. Became a REALTOR® in about eight and a half years ago. Proud to be a REALTOR® with the Scott Parker team and with RE/MAX in Nanaimo. Happy to be a part of this conversation.

Erin: We're glad to have you here, Ken. Tell us, what did you teach? Because if it's grammar, we're going to be really, really careful.

Ken: Not grammar. That was probably one of my weaker areas, although it did improve. My field of expertise was called Recreation Administration and Tourism Management. Within that, a lot of my areas of interest were in the entrepreneurial realm. I taught an entrepreneurship course. I taught marketing. I taught leadership. It had a business kind of sense to it. It really fit with my entrepreneurial needs as well as my teaching needs.

Erin: Wonderful. Okay, Cindi, what about you?

Cindi: I've been a REALTOR® for a little over two and a half years. I've come late to the game compared to somebody like Ken. I've been involved with various not-for-profit organizations in our community for decades and very much enjoy it. I have been involved with Habitat for Humanity, the YWCA, Pathstone Children's Mental Health, and Youth Without Secure Housing. I've had a lot of experience with being on boards and just dealing with those organizations and have enjoyed it immensely.

Erin: Good. What did it mean to you to be nominated for the 2024 REALTORS Care® Award? We'll start with you, Cindi.

Cindi: Well, first and foremost, I was very surprised. I just say, shout out to CREA for even coming up with this concept. I think it's so incredibly important that we highlight REALTORS® that are giving back to their community. I think it's one occupation where you see that constantly, where REALTORS®, they have big hearts and are continually giving back to their community, being involved in various organizations and charities. I was very honored, really was, like I said, very surprised, but felt very privileged to be included in the Care Award.

Erin: How'd you find out about it?

Cindi: I got a phone call, and I think it was Allison. Allison called me and said, "This is what's going on. You've been nominated and you've become one of the finalists." It was absolutely thrilling. We had an amazing conversation. It was YWCA who actually nominated me and put a lot of time and effort into writing the review on what I had done in the community. Very thankful to them. Then excited to be involved in the filming and highlighting the charities and the organizations I've been involved with over the years. It was a wonderful experience.

Erin: Oh, that's great. Good to hear. How about you, Ken? What did it mean for you to be nominated for the REALTORS Care® Award for 2024?

Ken: Again, like Cindi, it's pretty exciting and honorable. I give my team a lot of credit for that, though. It started with our local brokerage nomination for-- we have in our VIREB, Vancouver Island Real Estate Board, REALTORS Care® Award. I was shocked to get a message from my managing broker that they had nominated me. They didn't tell me, so quite a surprise, which was neat.

Then the CREA Care Award, I hadn't known that they'd put my name forward to that as well. A bit of a surprise, but just like Cindi, I think it's an honor for not only my team in brokerage, but also the organizations we work with. To me, I saw that as a great opportunity. Now I can share some of the great work the community organizations are doing with a broader audience. That was the most exciting part for me.

Erin: How did you first get involved with the causes that you support today? You've both mentioned so many of them already. Why were they so important? We'll start with you, Cindi.

Cindi: I come from a family where they've always given back in the community. I think I just followed their lead and went about finding organizations that would be the best fit for myself and started with Youth Without Secure Housing, that's basically homeless youth, and worked with them. That snowballed into so many other organizations because once you get involved in that venue, you start to meet so many people, have great stories, and you hear about other causes. You're invited. You're invited to serve on boards. You're invited to help-out with various projects.

I got involved with a regional group that was hand-pointed, that was for homeless youth and ended up serving alongside of wonderful people like Elizabeth Zimmerman, who is the executive director of the YWCA locally, and ended up serving on the board after getting to know her, and then got involved with the YW. I'm sure Ken would agree with me. When you get involved in those venues in our community, it just opens-up the door to you for so many other experiences that are so rewarding, and you get to know so many fabulous people.

Ken: I grew up in it. I had parents who were involved in the community since I can remember. My dad was a Lion for all his life, honored by being a Lion. That's a service organization. My mother, the same thing. I come from a small community, so they were extremely involved. I didn't know how it unfolded for me, but as the years went by through my early years as an academic, of course, I was involved in professional organizations and giving back to them and being engaged in them.

Again, throughout my life and career, as I started a new business, I went to one of the few people I know in my community I'm in now, Nanaimo, British Columbia. He was my REALTOR®, who happened to be my sister-in-law's cousin. I asked him, I said, "Hey, Dave, I'm having some challenges getting connected in my community. I've got this new business and leadership and management development. What do you recommend? There's so many organizations out there. It could have been BNI. It could have been the Executive Association, can be Toastmasters."

He said, "Ken, if I was you, I'd get involved in Rotary." He said, "Rotary is where the movers and shakers are in the community, and that's where you're going to meet people and doors will open for you." Sure enough, it was true. I wear this little lapel pin here, which is a Rotarian pin. As I started wearing that pin and meeting some of the executives in the community, it gave me instant credibility. They just said, "Oh, Ken, you're a Rotarian. That's great. You're in your community. Got to like that."

I started with Rotary. As Cindi said, once you start with one organization, it just snowballs. That snowball effect through Rotary led me to many, many other organizations that we work with and serve in many different ways. Sometimes it's just taking that first step, getting involved in a little way, and opportunities will just open-up. It's unbelievable.

Cindi: I'm going to jump on that one because I've just been asked to join our local Rotary. Ken and I did it the other way around because I've been involved with many different organizations. Now, that has been a springboard to be involved now with Rotary. Ken, you're saying that you actually got involved with Rotary, which became the springboard to getting involved with so many other organizations.

Ken: Congratulations, Cindi. That's great news. Rotary will provide many more opportunities to serve, and I think that's partly what it's about for us, is just to serve our communities. This year it's actually an interesting theme that Rotary has. Every year they have a different theme. This year the theme of Rotary is called The Magic of Rotary. I've been a Rotarian for pretty much 25 years, and I think the magic of Rotary has worked for me in many, many, different ways. Cindi, I'm excited for you just to see where it takes you because opportunities will present themselves like you can't even imagine. I'd love to tell you about some of those but we're on a different topic.

Cindi: I'm really excited about it so I'm glad you brought it up because just going to several of the meetings I see where their care is for their fellow man and the great things that they've done in the community so I'm really looking forward to jumping in.

Ken: It's a little bit intimidating to jump in and we don't know where to start. I think I would say one of the first steps in engaging in your community and giving back is just to start. When I got into Rotary, I jumped in not too fast but trying to learn about it because still, after 25 years, I'm learning what Rotary is and what they do but jumping in I would say is one of the number one things we can do in terms of serving our communities. Take a step.

Erin: That is absolutely true. We're talking service groups, service clubs. There are myriad service clubs wherever anyone listening or watching lives but we're also talking connection here which is so important. I love how everything weaves together here because, Cindi, here you are a REALTOR® and you've gotten involved in homes, homelessness and Habitat for Humanity. That's been so important in your story as well. Tell us about that.

Cindi: It dovetails, doesn't it, really with being a REALTOR®. I can't say enough good things about Habitat for Humanity, what they do. I just want to say just to be perfectly clear about it, we do not give homes away. The individuals actually have to pay for their homes. They have to do 500 hours of sweat equity so that we are assured that they're going to be able to have the energy and put the effort into taking care of their home whether that's the landscaping or the maintenance of the home itself and then we hold the mortgage for them, and it is based basically on their household income.

What I love about Habitat is that, that household income includes any teenagers that are working so everybody has a part to play. What we see is that families become closer together. We see children's marks go up, self-esteem go up. Habitat for Humanity, I think, has made such a difference in so many people's lives. Here we're so supported by the community. I'm just going to tell a little story if I may.

We had Centennial Homes come to us, local builder Dominic Delilah, and he said, "Listen, I want to build four homes for Habitat and just give you the keys." It was really difficult to wrap our head around because that's never happened before. We said, "Well, what do we have to do? How much do we have to give? Do we have to supply manpower?" He said, "No, I want to build these homes, and I just want to give you the keys."

Of course, we were absolutely thrilled. What Dominic did, and I really hope that this serves as an example and that other people take what he has done and copy it, he went to his employees, and he said, "Look, I want to do this for Habitat. Can you donate your hours when you work on the Habitat homes?" He also went to suppliers and said, "This is what I want to do. How can you assist us?" By doing that he involved so many other people in the community and then at the end he gave us the keys for four homes to serve four families. Just a wonderful example of what one individual can do with serving our community by serving an organization and really sacrificing.

Erin: Tell me what that looked like when those families got those keys, Cindi. Can you picture or describe what it was like for those lives to change before your eyes?

Cindi: When you have the presenting of the keys ceremony at Habitat there is not a dry eye in the entire place because these families speak. You really hear what it means to them and how much it changes their life before they even move into the house. Just to see the ripple effect that happens because you have to understand, some of those individuals who are children have become doctors, dentists, it's just amazing to see how their self-esteem changes, their confidence. They become so much more confident in who they are and what they can accomplish in life. Carl Ryan, who has been so instrumental in Habitat for Humanity in Niagara, he says, "If you don't shed a tear at a key ceremony for Habitat, you'll have to check to make sure you got a pulse."

Erin: Exactly. I'm sure, Ken, you've been part of moments like that as well. It's so incredible to be such a small part of a big change. That's part of what REALTORS Care® is all about as well.

Ken: Yes, I have to agree with you, Erin. Personally, it's very emotional and rewarding, but I think it's beyond that. It's not just for me. It's for the families, as Cindi is talking about. It's for her community. I want to make a connection with what Cindi's saying, because if a REALTOR®'s out there listening and wanting to find a reason to get engaged in their community, I think Cindi has number one, and that she's learning about her community. She's involved with a developer. She's involved with building homes. Hey, we're in real estate. Here Cindi's doing it just out of a love of service and gaining all this professional knowledge. That's a win-win for me.

Erin: Absolutely. It's all about the connections to the community, connections with each other, and connections of the heart. It's really, really heartwarming to hear both of your stories.

Okay. Ken, you've talked about Rotary, you've talked about myriad other things that you support. What drew you to these causes? You've talked also about the snowball effect. Let's expand on that a little bit, because it doesn't just happen all at once, does it? You don't just magically don the pin and all the doors open.

Ken: No.

Erin: Tell us a little bit more about that, would you?

Ken: Well, again, I think it is a snowball effect. I get introduced to different organizations in the community. I hear about their various needs. I try to move towards what interests me and where I'm moving towards, for example, children, youth, very, very important for all of us. That's something within me that I want to support. A good example of that is an organization called Nanaimo Youth Services Association. What they do is provide educational job readiness training, jobs, and housing for youth that are struggling. Youth homelessness is a big issue in our community.

Again, if anybody's interested in getting involved, you don't have to join an organization, you don't have to be a board member, you can simply participate in one of their events. A good example is, for a couple of years, myself and my team have gotten involved in their Roughing It event, which is basically going out and staying and sleeping on cardboard, on concrete, experience what it means to be homeless.

Anybody can do one little thing, just participate in one fundraising event. That is very, very useful. Again, my interest, as well, is just I see my community needs and I connect them, and all of a sudden, I'm engaged or involved in some way.

Erin: I think it's important, too, what you're saying, Ken, and Cindi, I'm sure you'll be able to echo this, that you can try on different organizations.

Cindi: That's right.

Erin: One size doesn't fit all. The meeting time may not really be for your schedule or for your life. If you just go and volunteer and show up at one of these events and say, "Yes, I really like these people, I like what they're doing," it becomes so much more fun. Honestly, volunteering should be something that feels easy to do that it doesn't feel like something that's an obligation. It's a joy. I hear you agreeing with this, Cindi.

Cindi: Yes, absolutely. I want to just, too, focus on REALTORS® and how they help. I look at our own brokerage, McGarr and Revel. I just think of all of the activities that these REALTORS® do to benefit the community, whether it's community care or Humane Society. The Revel Gala raises a lot of money each year and they donated it this year to the Ronald McDonald House. REALTORS® seem to be a group that just really understand the need to give back to our community. The homeless component, like I said earlier, just seems to dovetail so well. It's encouraging to be in Ontario and hear Ken, who's in BC, share very similar stories to mine or experiences that really mirror my experience when it comes to REALTORS® giving back and being involved in the community. That, for me, is incredibly encouraging.

Ken: I agree with what Cindi's saying in terms of, "It's just not me." I think a lot of the public don't know how REALTORS® are caring in their community. I think this award is a way to let the public know. When I received my award, of course, it was publicized in the local paper and I had people reaching out to me saying, "Hey, congratulations, Ken, that's neat." I'm not the only REALTOR®. There's many opportunities for those REALTORS® that are looking to get involved in the community.

As Erin, you said earlier on, it's not one size fits all, you just try it out, see what sticks with you. I've mentioned that you can just participate in a fundraising event, you can go to one of their annual general meetings, you can have a coffee with the CEO of the organization and just learn about them. Of course, you can always give money, don't get me wrong, everybody needs a check. There's many other ways to get engaged as we're talking about here today.

Cindi: I'm just going to jump in here. I always say, we've got all kinds of qualities that we can give. I always say either you can give your time, your treasures, or your talent. All of them mean something. There's some people who can give money because they don't have time. They probably have a lot of talents, but they'd rather give money. Then there's other individuals who really just want to give their time and that works for them.

I'm just going to say, to all of the board members who serve and volunteer on boards, who give their time, and I'm sure talents are in there too. You have to find out what works best for you. What is it that you want to give, and that you feel you're most fulfilled in giving? Ken, you said when we talked earlier, that you get fulfilled by giving. Scientifically, it's been shown to take your stress levels down, make you a happier person. Those of us who give to the community, we're winning across the board.

Ken: Nicely said, Cindi, because if you go into some of the theories, and you can look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you can look at a lot of the other models of happiness, guess what's at the top? It's service. Providing service is one of those higher level expressions of happiness, higher level expressions of being human. I get more than I give, there's no question. By giving a little bit, I gain big time. If you're wondering about getting involved, you'll benefit in terms of quality of life, your community benefits. It's a win-win.

Erin: It is. As a matter of fact, in our previous episode to this, on our podcast, on REAL TIME, Melissa Leung talked about this, that there was an experiment at UBC, where they gave everybody something like $10,000. The ones who gave it actually felt more happiness, more joy, and it sustained them longer too. It all ties in just so beautifully.

Now, you've both been involved in different ways in youth, Ken, you through Rotary, you as well, Cindi, finding homes, especially for the homeless, and for women, for shelters, and that sort of thing. You call it multiplying leaders. Let's expand on that a bit and looking toward tomorrow's community leaders to, one day, if not fill your shoes and walk alongside you, Cindi.

Cindi: I think one of the best acts any of us can do is to mentor others to care and have compassion for our fellow man. It's like, that should be the school, the school of love and care and compassion. You can encourage other people to do their part and to give of themself. It doesn't have to be big. It can be very small. If all of us did that in our community, just imagine the community and societies we would live in. It would be extraordinary. There's so many individuals that do mentor people and lead as examples, and we just need to pay attention and be willing to give of ourselves so that we can be a reflection of them and perhaps then be a mentor and an example for other people in our community or people in our circles.

Erin: How about you, Ken? Are you seeing more youth getting involved in service clubs and that sort of thing? Are you planting the seeds for a tree under which whose shade you never hope to sit, but that one day they too will be the tree?

Ken: It's so important and I do see it happening maybe not as much as it can or should. I'm involved in a couple of organizations that are planting seeds. One's the Child Development Center here in Nanaimo. I've been working with them in a variety of capacities for a number of years and they provide opportunities for youth that are struggling with some disability of some kind, and helping level the playing field for them and their families.

In Rotary, of course, there's many youth programs. We have one where we train youth leaders in age 12 to 17. Those are the kids that are going to come up and lead others. In Rotary, we have Rotaract, which is a university age Rotary club. They're developing themselves and serving their communities in many different ways. We do need to be building the future here today, and it's through youth. There's no question.

Another way I would say is quite a few years ago, we built a community leadership program. Right now it's called Leadership Vancouver Island. That's a nine-month program where you apply to be part of this program, you're learning to be a leader within your community, whether it's your business or local organization. The idea is that you will take your leadership then and multiply your organization by being more effective.

When we first started the program, we were saying, "Well, what's better? Write a check to the organization for maybe buying some equipment or training one of their staff members to be able to go out and get 10 checks for 10 pieces of equipment?" That idea of building for the future is so important here.

Cindi: I love that answer, Ken. I'm going to talk a little bit about changing lives because you did refer to that. I look at organizations like the YWCA where they take women and children and they mentor them, they give them life skills programs where their lives are changed. Personally, and I know, Ken, you said the same thing, I'm more about organizations where you give a hand-up, not so much a handout, although I feel that organizations that give a handout are very, very important in our community and needed and definitely serve a very real and necessary purpose.

The YWCA, because they have so many life skill programs and because they end up changing lives of women and children, I get so excited about what they do. It's about multiplying what you're doing, but it's about changing the lives of other people in your community where they end up being on their own, they don't need as much assistance as they were getting and feeling just great about themselves. Of course, children reflect mothers. I always say healthy mothers raise healthy children. If we want healthy children, let's help our mothers be healthy.

Erin: Agreed. To both of you, what value do you see in bringing one of your charitable initiatives under the REALTORS Care® umbrella to help bring in resources from your board association and CREA? We'll start with you, Ken.

Ken: Well, that's a great question because I think it's the most important thing we're doing here with that award, is being able to recognize some of these organizations that I'm a small part of, but they're a big part of the community. Even just the awareness that they get through the award is very important. In some cases, I think I haven't maximized that awareness that they've received through this award, and I'd like to find ways to be able to do it. My local award, I did receive a small amount of funds that I could give to one of my charities, which is a great thing to do. I think they get awareness, and I think REALTORS® get more awareness, and we win by this because what the public sees is REALTORS® that do care about their community. It isn't about just selling a home. We care about our community. I think that, Erin, is maybe the most important thing about the award, is that community organizations are recognized for the work they do.

Let me just finish up by saying, when I ask around, sometimes it feels overwhelming, we see homelessness. We feel families that are struggling. We see an addiction problem. We just put our hands up in the air and go, "Oh my goodness, what can I do?" I asked that question, one of the fellows I met through, again, my connection with the Nanaimo Youth Services Association, well, actually it was through Rotary. He was a keynote speaker. I hate to bring Rotary up all the time.

His name was Joe Roberts, and he goes by the moniker Skid Row CEO. He's got a very compelling story about his growing up and not having that love and care and not having a community that supported him. He ended up on East Vancouver. He's from Ontario. He had a growing up story that was like all of us, and that's, things are going well, and then one little thing changed. His father passed away. From that, he got involved in some abusive situations with his mother's boyfriend or something like that.

I asked him, "Joe, what can we do? What can I do? I'm just overwhelmed with these issues, social issues." He said, "Ken, the one thing we can do is get involved in the organizations that are doing the work." That has stayed with me. I think, Cindi, you're doing it.

If we'd encourage more REALTORS® to think that way, you don't have to solve homelessness, but take part in an event every year. February, it's called Coldest Night of the Year. Locally, it's run by our central Vancouver Island Crisis Care Society. They run this every year. My team goes out now every year. It's just participating in that, raising a little bit of funds, but raising awareness amongst the community that, "Hey, there's some challenges in our community. If we could just all come out, spend $100 or whatever you can raise, you're going to make a difference." Again, one little step.

Cindi: Well said. Well said, Ken. For REALTORS®, I really believe that they get involved in the community because they care about people. To choose the career of a REALTOR® is usually because you care about others, and then it reflects to helping in the community. That was one of, certainly, the points of getting this award, was that we were able to film Habitat for Humanity and the YWCA, talk about Pathstones and highlight those wonderful organizations in my personal community where people are making a difference and are just giving of themselves and changing the lives of others. Out of the cold, very active here in our community too. What a great suggestion, Ken.

Erin: So many good ideas, so many great suggestions, but there's got to be somebody who's listening or watching right now who says, "How do I fit this into my crazy busy life? I don't have time to commit hours and hours a week." I always remember a sign in a gym I saw that said, "You always have time for the things you put first." What is your example? What's your suggestion to anybody who's sitting on the fence going, "Oh, I don't know if I'm ready to commit to all of this"? What do you say, Ken?

Ken: I say, Erin, you had a good answer. If anybody's listening, and they say, "Well, I don't have the time, I'm too busy," I get a little irritated when people tell me that because you nailed it in terms of, you can fit whatever you need to fit in, in your world.

By giving a little bit, it's not extra. It is not extra. In my own life, I am engaged, involved in the community. I'm an active REALTOR®. It's just part of who I am, and it could be part of who you are. It's not a big step. It is really just maybe an hour a month, for goodness sakes, or participate in one event. Not only is it just good for your own soul, but it's good for business. We haven't even really talked about that.

Cindi has so many neat contacts in her community just by her volunteer work. I think half of my business comes from my community connections. If you're out there saying, "Well, I can't do it, I can't do it, because I'm so busy with my clients," well, you're missing out. You're missing out big time. This whole notion of caring about your community is important for you personally, but it's important for your business, and most importantly, it's important for the community, because if we don't have a healthy community, who's going to want to live here? Who's going to want to buy the houses?

Erin: Okay. Cindi, what about you? What do you say?

Cindi: I say that busy people get things done. We need you. If you're busy, we really need you because you'll probably make such an impact. Just start out with baby steps. Once you find out how absolutely fulfilling it is, I'm sure that you will end up jumping in with both feet. It's that whole beginning stage. Just, start out slowly, and you'll get sucked into the vortex, just like Ken and I did.

Erin: It's a good vortex. It's a great vortex.

Cindi: It's a great vortex.

Erin: Wonderful. I can think of no better way, no better note on which to wrap this up today than with that message of joy and hope, giving and volunteering and just, baby steps. That's all it takes.

Cindi: Baby steps.

Erin: Absolutely. Thank you both so much for being part of this conversation. Congratulations to you both. May the next year bring even greater things for you, for us all. Thank you.

Cindi: Thank you, Erin. Ken, what a pleasure to get to know you.

Ken: You too, Cindi. Thanks, Erin.

Cindi: When I'm in Vancouver Island, I'm looking you up just so you know.

Ken: Sounds good.

Cindi: We're going to have lunch.

Ken: Okay. Sounds good. We can compare notes.

Erin: He's in Nanaimo. I'm in Victoria. You've got lunch either place, Cindi.

Cindi: I'll look you up, too, Erin.

Erin: Okay, hon.

Cindi: I'm in Niagara Lake, so listen.

Erin: Oh, man.

Cindi: Come see me.

Erin: Yes, right after the Shaw Festival. Promise.

Cindi: Okay, good. Sounds good. A pleasure. Thank you so much.

Ken: Thanks, Erin.

Erin: Thank you. Wow, it's hard not to be motivated after a conversation like that. If you're looking to get involved, just ask somebody like Cindi or Ken in your community or reach out to your local board or association to find out if they're organizing a REALTORS Care® Day near you. With that, we are wrapping up REAL TIME for 2024.

REAL TIME is a production of Alphabet® Creative with technical support from Rob Whitehead, from me, Erin Davis, and from the bottom of my heart, from all of us, thank you for another great year full of incredible guests and fascinating discussions. There is so much more to come in 2025, so we hope you'll stay tuned for what's next. In the meantime, if you're just discovering our show, yay, take a listen to some of our past episodes.

Finally, to you, our listener and viewer, our deepest gratitude and wishes for all the best in the new year.

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When was the last time you talked in depth about your money? Research shows talking about finances can build financial confidence, and lead to better financial outcomes. But you need to know where to start.

On this episode of the REAL TIME podcast we’re joined by Melissa Leong, best-selling author and resident money expert on the daytime talk show, The Social, to dive deeper into the connection between money and happiness, how we use emotion over logic when it comes to financial decision making, some of the most common mistakes made by self-employed individuals, and how being more financially aware can help REALTORS® in their businesses.

Transcript

Erin Davis: What if I told you money can buy happiness, but maybe not in the way you expect? Hi, I'm Erin Davis, and welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS® brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association.

Erin: Today we're joined by Melissa Leong, bestselling author and resident money expert on the daytime talk show, The Social, to talk about how financial awareness can be the key to a happy life. Melissa, welcome. It's so good to have you here today. Thank you for joining us.

Melissa Leong: Thank you so much for having me.

Erin: I think it's probably safe to say that money is a taboo topic to a lot of people, and we don't talk about it enough. There is a financial awareness that seems somehow to be missing. Can you walk us through financial awareness and how that relates to financial literacy?

Melissa: Most people focus on financial literacy as this, "Oh, we need to have our children learn more about it in school, and we need to make sure that more people are empowered with the knowledge of how to manage their money and make better decisions because they'll have the facts." I think that's important. I am a financial literacy champion, so absolutely I think that's important. I love that you talked about financial awareness because just because you know something, it doesn't mean you always do what you know.

Why I love to also talk about financial awareness as a sister to financial literacy is yes, we can know everything there is to know about personal finance. That doesn't mean we're going to always make the right decisions when it comes to, financial empowerment and structuring our money in a way that best gives us the opportunities and the life that we want to live. It's two things to keep in your back pocket.

Erin: Okay, so let's dig into that a little bit. Why don't we do things like save, for example, even when we know that it's right? We have so much cognitive dissonance in our lives and so many other places that could be 17 podcasts. Let's talk about this in this episode and why don't we do what's right, like save?

Melissa: This topic could fill volumes. There are many incredible, incredibly smart individuals who are devoting their lives to neuroeconomics or behavioral economics, which is just the study of why we do what we do when it comes to money. I would love just to highlight maybe quickly three of them. One of the three things, some things that what causes us to behave strangely when it comes to money because we're not always rational. We're human beings and there are wonderful quirks to us.

One of the things is that we do not operate well under stress. There's a part of our brain that regulates the long-term repercussions of our actions, which you need when figuring out money decisions. That goes offline when you are stressed, which is fascinating because as you know, money is a stressful topic for many, many people. It's the top thing that we stress about. It's what causes people to lose sleep at night, according to many surveys year after year. It's the top predictor of strife and conflict and separation in relationships.

You add a stressful topic, you have a situation where your brain is focusing on the present versus the future, which is called present bias. You are having your willpower affected and your impulse control affected. Then you're making some interesting money decisions that may be out of character for you when it comes to your wallet, your portfolio, your investment choices, your real estate choices, whatever it is, which just leads to more stress.

You can see, Erin, how you're in this vortex. You're trapped in this cycle. We use money to alleviate pain because it's just a tool. Many people use money to alleviate stress and boredom and anxiety and insecurity and inadequacy. You get this dopamine release when you use money, when you spend money, and that temporarily does improve your mood, but it is temporary. You have this chasing of this feeling with money, which can lead to a lot of stress. That's one thing.

We often say, "Okay, well, you need more knowledge there. You need a budget." You need all these things. Actually, sometimes what you need is a stress reliever. You need a moment or an outlet. If you know that on the way home, you're going to be making some big decisions when it comes to some sort of financial deal, you go for a walk first so that you are dealing with the cortisol component, the regulation component, as well as the money component. That's just one. Very quickly, another one is we're very optimistic. We're very optimistic. People think, no, I know Debbie Downers.

Human beings, the majority of, us think that we're above average drivers. My mother-in-law thinks she's the best driver in the world. She thinks that everyone's waving at her with just one finger. We have a hard time imagining scenarios where things are not going to work out for us. That can make it really hard to plan for the future or have plan Bs or choose the right investment or home or something because you are disconnected from your future self because you're thinking positively. That's the third.

We have a disconnect when it comes to our future selves. There's this fabulous, I say fabulous. It's actually gross, this fabulous experiment that involves people drinking a cup of soy sauce and ketchup. People think, "Ew, right? I'm not drinking that. That's so gross."

Erin: No.

Melissa: My future self will drink it. A stranger and my future self will drink it because you are disconnected from that future self. Imagine that you're making some long-term plans. Studies show that you can actually get people to save more money if they see an age rendering of themselves.

Erin: Okay. Yes. I need to delve into that. Let's say there's an app and we know there are probably a hundred of them out there that will show you what you're going to look like in 20 years, although why anybody would-- Anyway.

Melissa: To save more money, according to research.

Erin: Okay. Explain that to me. Explain that to us all.

Melissa: According to neuroscience, your prefrontal cortex has less activity when you think of your future self versus your present self, which makes it very difficult to make long-term plans and to project out into 10, 20 years from now what your life is going to be like, what you want your goals to be even five years from now. It doesn't have to be looking at a photo of yourself through some sort of app, Erin, if you prefer not to, but it can also just be, say you're working with a client, and you want them to think about the future or make an investment for the future. You might talk to them about, okay, well, what do you envision your day-to-day or your life or what do you envision for yourself say five years from now and really spend time, just connecting with that part of yourself, that helps you make decisions in service of future you as well as balancing the needs of the immediate.

Erin: Okay. Going back to the point about optimism, which I find fascinating, if the current situation is unstable, whether in your life or your country or the world or whatever, whether it's small picture, big picture, how does that affect our decision-making and that optimism? Are you able to delve into that just a bit? I'm really curious about that, Melissa.

Melissa: I think sometimes when hard things befall us, we do get stuck in this, "Okay, well, it's always going to be like this," because right now is what you can imagine. It's a leap to try to imagine an alternate reality for yourself. Yes, absolutely. If you are in a difficult financial situation, the longer you stay in that situation, studies have shown that it is harder to get back onto stable ground. That being said, the research supports that as a whole, human beings tend to be more optimistic.

They'll find a way to justify something. They will find a way to tell themselves a good story. For example, you use the example of something difficult has happened or something tough has happened in the world. Your brain will reach for the good. For example, say you make a purchase and you regret it, your brain will actually--

Erin: We've all been there.

Melissa: Your brain will start to tell yourself things like, "Oh, well, I really needed it." Or, "That thing, it wasn't so bad." There are lots of great studies like this. This is a really fascinating report talking about, say, the Beetle who didn't make it into the band and how he says that was the best thing that ever happened to him. Someone dealt with something difficult, and we do, we find a way, we find the bright side.

As someone who works with the public when it comes to making big financial decisions, life decisions, I think a lot of wealth professionals have this wonderful and big responsibility to walk a tightrope when it comes to understanding and honoring someone's optimism, but being that voice where you are saying, yes, but on the other side of this coin, you also need a healthy dose of fear and paranoia because you have to understand that while optimism is the driver of moneymaking, you think I'm going to buy this house, it's going to be great. Everything's going to work out.

On the flip side, you also understand some of those decisions, some of that luck that you've had, some of that money that you've made is due to life circumstances and good luck, and you never know when that might change. To also make decisions and have a plan for the future that protects your future happiness.

Erin: I'm feeling better just listening to you already, Melissa. Of course, we can read Melissa's work as well, because you wrote a book about the connection between money and happiness. I would just love to explore that a little bit more with you now. What is the connection there? How can better financial awareness lead to a happier life?

Melissa: Oh, my goodness. I have a secret for you. Actually, it's not a secret, because I wrote a book about it. You can buy happiness, but there's nuance. You have to spend it and manage it in a certain way, which is why I ended up with this entire book about it. Because you asked me at the top, what is the connection? There are thousands upon thousands of pages of research that try to explore this. The most fascinating one that I really like from 2020 is a mystery experiment. Researchers, including two at the University of British Columbia, asked individuals around the world to sign up for this mystery experiment. Would you do that? Just, you have no idea what's going to happen?

Erin: I think I would because of my optimistic streak.

Melissa: That's right. That's right.

Erin: Yes. Okay. I'm in.

Melissa: I would too. You know what, Erin, we would be rewarded because turns out those 200 people got $10,000 to spend. There was a catch.

Erin: Oh. Let's go shopping. Let's do it.

Melissa: There was a catch. Wait, wait. There was a catch.

Erin: I knew there would be.

Melissa: You could spend it shopping on anything you wanted. You could just spend it, but you had to spend all of it in three months, every last cent.

Erin: No problem. Go on.

Melissa: The question was, would these people be happier than a control group who did not get $10,000 to spend in three months? What do you think?

Erin: Oh, I don't know. I'd get so much written about it. The stories would be wonderful.

Melissa: Absolutely. They were happier. They were happier after three months.

Erin: Good. I hope so.

Melissa: What's fascinating is there's all this nuance. Some of it is, for example, if they already had, the more money they had to begin with, the less happy that money made them.

Erin: That makes sense.

Melissa: Also interesting is how they spent that money determined what made them most happy, which we can also talk about later. I wanted to emphasize that this study did not follow these individuals beyond, say, a few months after this spending spree. There is some suspicion. There's some thought that the happiness maybe wouldn't last because of this thing called hedonic adaptation, which means that you just return to a baseline of happiness no matter what happens. There's a study of lottery winners versus paraplegic and quadriplegic individuals who had become that way after some sort of accident.

They found that their levels of happiness returned to a baseline after this, whatever incident they endured. As well as the people who were survivors, they enjoyed the little things in life more than the lottery winners. Things like hearing a joke, spending time with friends, reading a magazine. There is a lot of discussion that needs to happen. We always say, well, how much money do you think that I need to be optimally happy? Researchers have tried to give you this answer.

A 2018 Purdue University study found that the optimal number for life satisfaction is $95,000 US pre-tax per single-family household. Once you make that, you should be satisfied with life. If you make between 60 and $75,000, that on average is the sweet spot for just feeling happy day to day. Hopefully, you guys are all happy. Everyone's happy right now because we're all together and listening to this great information. What was interesting, Erin, is that more money above these thresholds, once your basic needs are met, is actually associated with a decrease in happiness.

Erin: Is it more money, more problems?

Melissa:

Erin: What is it?

Melissa: There are a lot of hypotheses about why that would be, and it all makes sense. Maybe you are working more. Maybe you've taken on a huge client load. Maybe you are spending less time with family and friends, less time in the nature. You are acquiring more material goods, or you are competing more with other people, say, I don't know, online perhaps. That all leads to a decrease in happiness.

Erin: That $10,000 that you talked about from the UBC study, I'm going to take a guess that charity, or those who didn't just run out and run up a card and then pay it off with the $10,000, that they felt more. There's got to be an element of altruism in there somewhere, Melissa.

Melissa: Yes, actually. Of the $10,000 that they received, people spent an average of $6,400 on other people. Of that $6,400, $2,000 was earmarked for strangers, for donations, which is lovely. That is, according to science, one of the things that will boost your happiness, giving money to other people.

Erin: That is just so inspiring. You absolutely make science sing, Melissa. It's wonderful. Your areas of expertise are behavioral finance and neuroeconomics. Can you share some examples with us of how humans use emotion and intuition over logic when we're making financial decisions?

Melissa: Absolutely. We think that when you are making a financial decision, it's about numbers or projections or profit. Experts will say that the vast majority of your money decisions are not based on logic at all, which is why I'm so happy that we started this conversation with talking about, yes, it's important to know things, but it's also important to understand that you're not going to always do what you know. You are going to be under duress sometimes. For example, I know that after school, when I pick up the boys, they're going to be screaming. They're going to be hungry. I'm going to be stressed out from a long day of work, and I'm not going to be making the best financial decisions.

I'm going to be ordering food on my phone, or I'm just going to say we're going to go out and eat. To outsmart yourself, to know that your brain is not going to always be logical when it comes to your finances, you have to make another plan. You don't need to hack the system. You understand that you can't be trusted sometimes. This is where things like having a strategy, making larger goals, sitting down with wealth professionals, having an automatic deduction of money that goes to your priorities, your emergency fund, your vacation fund, your retirement fund.

Then when you're in a tough position and everybody's yelling and screaming and crying and whining, you say, "Fine, I am going to order all of the food we want right now," and then not stress more about it, creating, again, that pool of stress that just makes everything worse.

Erin: Yes. Instead of just digging into your wallet and throwing out the money, you've got that side pocket in the wallet where you had put away money, a couple of 20s or whatever for the emergency trip to the drive-thru, metaphorically speaking, of course, because we all use cards and stuff, but that makes total sense. They used to call it like a slush fund. Is there a terminology now for that place where the money is that you know you can go to it when you're going to make a rash decision or you won't be your best, Melissa, at that moment. You're being screamed at mom.

Melissa: Absolutely. When we talk about money, we have to understand that language is powerful. You call it a slush fund, but if you want to call that something else, something more empowering, something more fun, I call mine a spending account. When I sit down and go over my budget and calculate my net worth with my husband, which we do quarterly, just to make sure that we're on track financially, that we are growing wealth, and that we are paying down debts, we work out, these are our priorities. These are our goals. This is the money that's going to be siphoned off from our account that will go to those goals.

We are also going to earmark this amount of money per week to spend on whatever we want. The spending account means that, Erin, if I have money in there and you and I want to go for dinner, it is my treat. I'm happy to spend it on other people because I have it.

Erin: Sounds good. Paint a picture of what that looks like, sitting across a desk with your laptops open, or are you at the kitchen table with glasses of wine or coffee or how do you do that in a couple where you're both entrepreneurs?

Melissa: Erin, can we do our budgets together? That sounds lovely with a glass of wine. You know what? You did bring up an excellent topic, which is if you're going to talk about money with anyone, you want to make sure that the timing is right because, again, when your brain is not in an optimal place, you're not going to have the resources to be able to be in that moment. My husband and I, we usually do it after a period of connecting.

Maybe we've gone for a walk or maybe we've done some-- I call it a dream sandwich. You put something nice, you do something nice, you talk about something nice, you sandwich in the hard work and the talk of the sacrifices that need to possibly be made, and then you finish it off with something nice. Maybe like you said, a glass of wine, a toast to, "Hey, we're on track. This is great. We've made some shared goals. This is fantastic."

I think that wealth professionals, REALTORS®, they have this tremendous capacity to use that Bluetooth connection with people. You can help someone co-regulate. If they're making a tough decision, if they're looking at something and they're not sure, "Okay, what are the consequences of me buying this home versus this home?" Rather than continuing to talk, which is what some wealth professionals have done. Sometimes my husband does that to me. What I would prefer is that you are empathetic. Empathy is your superpower.

If you can lead with compassionate curiosity, if you can connect before you correct, if you can signal safety by instead of continuing to talk, take a moment and understand that right now, maybe you don't notice that I am experiencing this flush of hormonal secretions and there's cortisol in my body now. All you notice maybe is a slight fidgeting or a tapping of my foot because my body is trying to self-soothe in that moment or self-regulate or a furrow in my brow. You could pause and connect with me or pause and connect with yourself, which means take a breath.

There are lots of studies that show that when you are working with someone, when you're speaking with someone, if they can regulate themselves and calm themselves, that actually signals to my brain that I can lower my own arousal. Those are the people that I want to work with. Those are the people that I want in my life. There are a lot of surveys, there's research that shows that the people in your life that you work with when it comes to building, having milestones, like buying a home or planning your retirement, these people, the more empathetic they are, the bigger their client base, the more that they have client satisfaction on their side, the more that they have referrals.

I just think that we could all lean more on the humanity when talking about money and when working with people when they are making money decisions.

Erin: Is there a language of empathy that perhaps we don't know, Melissa? I know that when my husband tells me to calm down--

Melissa: Oh my alarm bells.

Erin: Yes, we're going to be on Dateline in a few weeks. You know what I mean. You're sitting across from someone and that Melissa is fidgeting or she's getting a little red or self-soothing and all of these things. What is the right thing to say at that moment that doesn't sound condescending, that doesn't come off as calm down? You know what I mean?

Melissa: Absolutely. I think it's leaning back on what I was talking about, which is you don't always have to say the right thing. Sometimes it's to make sure that you yourself are staying steady in that moment. You're the steady pilot. There's a lot of turbulence around you, but you're going to try to stay calm and stay positive and make sure that your energy is not going to shift the room. You can let this person experience whatever they're experiencing and validate their experience.

If you see that they're having trouble, you can say that. I see that you're struggling with this decision. How best can I help you? How best can I serve you? I am a safe space for you. I've heard of excellent sales research that talks about just even opening up about your own vulnerabilities and talking about your own values. If I were in your shoes, I would also feel stressed. In the past, I've done this, just to create more of that connection. Again, empathy is your superpower, your connection with this person. When you are speaking about money, even your own family members and trying not to judge and trying not to do anything but be, again, a compassionate listener will go a very long way.

Erin: I love that. That's really good. Thank you, Melissa, so much. Listening. Okay. How can we see or hear through the noise? How can we find somebody to trust when everybody on, say, TikTok, for example, is pretending or saying they're a money expert?

Melissa: There is a lot of noise out there. There was a lot of noise even before social media. I will say I personally love that everyone is talking about money. I know, social media, there's a lot of strange information, misinformation, fraudulent information out there. We have our phones constantly. People can reach us at all hours of the day, even when I'm not in the right state of mind to be making a big financial decision. What I always say is when you are looking for information, even though the internet has democratized financial information, even though the internet has given so much diversity to the conversation, I think sometimes personal finance advice was not necessarily geared towards women or people of color.

You have social media to fill in those gaps so that you recognize your experience in someone else's story. That being said, I would use it as a little morsel at a buffet. You don't get all the information from TikTok. You whet your appetite a little and you think, "Huh, I find that really fascinating. I'm going to find out more about, first time homebuyers," or whatever it is you heard about on TikTok. Then to seek professionals who can, be a sounding board who can give you very personalized advice, because it's called personal finance for a reason. your experience is different than other people's experience, and you want tailored advice.

Obviously getting recommendations from family and friends and looking up the reviews of this person and making sure that they have all the designations that they say they do. If they are a certified financial planner, that's a great designation. You should look up whether they do and have that designation. If they say they can get you insurance, they need to have a license to sell you insurance. These are the types of things you need to do when it comes to due diligence and finding someone and making sure that you interview at least three. I always try to talk to as many people as possible until I find the right people that I want on my team.

Erin: Excellent. That's great insight with all of the noise around us. Now research is out there that shows talking about money is a great way to build confidence, but sometimes it is hard to know where to start. Nobody wants to look like they're asking dumb questions or anything like that. We all have that bit of ego. Can you share, Melissa, some good examples about how talking about money can build confidence?

Melissa: I love dumb questions. I'm the queen of dumb questions.

Erin: Oh, good. You're with the right person. No, I'm kidding.

Melissa: No, you know what it is? I have built a career on asking questions, I'm sure as you have. It is a gateway. If you don't know something, the incredible confidence that you build by going on a journey to finding out that information is so special. I would encourage anyone, if you feel like, "Oh, I'm just not the best in blank." First of all, watch your language. You're just learning. You're on your way. You don't have to say that you're not the best at, say, I don't know enough about the stock market. Great. Okay.

That's an opportunity for you to find out more. There's so many fantastic tools out there that will support your journey. It is a journey. A little bit at a time. You don't eat the whole elephant at once. I don't know why I use that analogy. There's a book, a great financial book that talks about that idea. You sort of, little bit, tidbits. You jump over the small waves. You don't surf the giant one right away.

Erin: Okay. Talking about money in a way that's human too, I think many of us are intimidated when we go in to have the big discussions because we think that as you use the example of the stock market, it's going to be over our heads.

Melissa: If you encounter a wealth professional who uses a lot of jargon and who speaks over your head, they are not the right person for you. I have had, and I have worked with wealth professionals who even with me, with the knowledge that I have, try to use some words, I'm not sure what's happening there, if it's for their ego or they're just so eager for me to understand that they're just not doing the empathy piece where they see that my eyes are starting to glaze over, they're starting to lose me, then money is, as you said before, we were talking about how money is such a sensitive topic. People would rather talk about sex than talk about money.

If you're going to get a wealth professional on your side to talk about your life, your milestones, your life goals, you should be comfortable, and this person should want to check in with you. Sometimes we get advisors, we get a planner, and you don't see them or talk to them. No, they need to be keeping in touch with you, checking in to make sure that your goals are the same and you can ask them lots of questions.

Ask them things like, "Am I properly diversified in order to meet my goals?" Or let them know, "Hey, we've had some life changes, and that has changed what I want. My values have changed, so I want to spend money in a different way now, and I want to structure my money in a different way or talk about your fears. I'm really afraid of what will happen if I get sick, if I can't work anymore. Talk to them. These people are there to help you build the life that you want, and they get paid to do that. You want to make sure that you are maximizing their services.

Erin: Oh, and I have found that the best REALTORS®, those who have helped us through our toughest decisions have been de facto therapists, and it's just that empathy. Now that you mention it, I see that that's what that was.

Melissa: Yes. It's who you feel safe with to help you build this vision, right?

Erin: Yes. Now, I'm curious, Melissa, what are some of the common financial mistakes or misconceptions that you've seen from entrepreneurs and self-employed individuals?

Melissa: I am going to lean, Erin, on my own experience for this because my husband is self-employed, I'm self-employed, I'm from a family of entrepreneurs. My family ran, three generations of my family ran one of the oldest Chinese restaurants in Winnipeg, Manitoba, for 70 years.

Erin: What's the name in case anyone here grew up in Winnipeg?

Melissa: It was the Shanghai Restaurant in Chinatown. It was this beautiful place that helps all of us build a foundation on which we grew. However, one of the lessons that I saw there was my family members worked there tirelessly every weekend, every holiday they were there, and they were focused on a goal. They were focused on building generational wealth. Beautiful, beautiful mission. They were not taking care of themselves. They weren't paying themselves, for example. They'll say things like, "I'll pay myself someday," or they weren't paying into any retirement plan. They thought this is for the kids or the restaurant is what we'll retire on, but that was not the case.

When the restaurant finally closed down, you had staff and owners who perhaps didn't think about what their lives would look like after retirement. That piece is important. That connecting with your future self is important because I understand you wear every hat. You're the marketing director, you're the event planner for your business, and you're constantly running your business and so many else's lives as well as your own life. It's just family and friends.

Sometimes you do need to pause and make sure that you're taking care of yourself first. Sometimes you need to pause. Part of that taking care of yourself is the future and in the present. That means looking at the numbers. I have met many business owners who they run their business, they get involved in growth, but they don't take a pause to audit. They don't take a pause to think, "Okay, my confusing revenue with profit here, what's happening? What are the actual numbers here? Am I overestimating income? Am I underestimating expenses?" It's important for all of us personally and professionally to take stock every once in a while to see if we are spending in line with our values as well as our professional values.

Erin: You've talked about focusing on the work and the money and not what the money affords you. That's what one of the mistakes of your forebears was. I find that fascinating because there is in so many of us just a disconnect that if we spend on a vacation, if we take the family away now, well, what happens when the kids are grown and need to go to university and we want to pay the tuition? I guess coming around again, it comes back to having a financial advisor or somebody in your life who can give you the advice and say, "Look, this is this money, have that spending money," that spending account that you mentioned, Melissa.

Melissa: Everyone will have a different idea of how they want their money spent because everyone puts a value on different things. Money is just a tool. It doesn't mean anything. You use it. You allocate it accordingly. It's called value-based spending. If you name the top five values that you have in your life, and don't just say family and freedom, be very specific. Freedom means, retiring at 55, maybe for you. Family means having the freedom of time to spend with my husband, my kids, whatever, my wife or my partner, whatever it is that you decide.

Then looking, okay, you know what? I'm going to open my bank app, which I should have on the front page of my phone so that you can be mindful of spending and saving and investing and whatnot. You open that up and you look, you say, "Okay, let me look over the last month or two, all these purchases here, my surplus, did I spend it in any of these value categories? If not, can I make different choices?"

Erin: What about that money can't buy happiness, Melissa?

Melissa: Money, as I said in the beginning, I think money can buy happiness. It has a limit. It has a limit. I love this question because people often say, "Oh, you can't tell me what to buy because I like shoes." If that makes me happy, who are you to say? I think, sure, if that makes you happy, don't let anyone tell you that that doesn't make you happy. You decide, but that also means that your resources are finite. If you decide that shoes make you happy, that money has to come from somewhere else. You have to determine that is a valuable or worthwhile trade-off because it's always about trade-offs.

That's probably one of the very first things I'm teaching my children when it comes to personal finance. Everything involves a trade-off. When you say yes to something, you are saying no to something else. Science has given us many things that we can buy that will give us a maximum boost of joy. We don't have forever to talk about it, but I do want to make sure that I talk about three for your listeners. The first is experiences. When people spend on experiences, it bonds you to other people versus material goods, which are usually enjoyed alone. You've got the greater bang for your buck because you're talking about the experiences later.

You have memories, you have goodwill, you maybe have learned a skill, which basically expands the way you experience happiness. In a study of happy people, when they received a windfall of cash, they spent 40% of it on experiences. The second is the thing that we talked about earlier, which is other people. Worldwide surveys show that when you spend on other people, when you donate to charity, not only do you feel more satisfied with life, but you actually feel wealthier. It has a tremendous opportunity to give you purpose, but you have to be purposeful.

Sometimes we have, okay, well, this charity drive's coming to my door, or there's this Facebook drive going on, or a GoFundMe, and that's less intentional. Maybe saying, what, I have this amount of money to spend a year on charity. 50% of it is going to go to my charity of choice, which I believe is very, very in line with my passions and my values. 30% is going to go to my community. I'm going to save 20% for unplanned giving. That is going to be more empowering than this, "I'll give when I can, and maybe at the end of the year, I'll see over the holidays when I'm in the spirit." It's being intentional with it, and also combining experiences with giving to others.

One of my favorite things that we did in the last few years is during the pandemic, my son and some of our friends, everything was shut down. We were just outside and we filmed a dinosaur movie and held a virtual screening of this dinosaur movie. We charged everyone tickets and had an interview with the stars, the director afterwards, and all the money that we raised, we donated to a family in need. It was such a beautiful event for my family and friends, my community. I encourage everyone to think more about that. Number three is time savers. People who value time over money, they are happier, according to research. You can make yourself happier if you start to value time over money.

Yes, that may mean you don't take on an extra client this month, but you understand that there's a trade-off there. That might make you happier. You could also try to buy time back. For example, with all of the unpaid housework that a lot of women are saddled with, say, I think it was a per capita stats can said in 2019, it was, 820 unpaid hours of work. Maybe you want to, pay somebody, the kid down the street to mow the lawn or something to help you save some time. It can take a lot of forms.

Erin: I love that idea. Those three are just so salient, Melissa. This discussion has been amazing, so insightful, and we appreciate you spending time with us today. If you had to give our listeners and viewers one place to start on their financial awareness journey, what would it be?

Melissa: The first thing I would say is to look, maybe on a more macro level inward. To look at yourself, how are you spending money? What do you care about? What was it like for you growing up when it came to money? How does that affect how you think about it and how you operate with money today? Often money mainly grows on family trees. A lot of the things that your parents say, this is somehow becoming ingrained in you when it comes to finances. That's number one. Give your money some deeper thought. Why do I do the things that I do? Forget about what Melissa Leong said about the science, but what is it about my own story that drives my financial behavior?

Then second, this is more tangible. The first thing you can do when you want to look into money in general is to look into your own money. That is printing out your bank statements for the last three months. That's opening the app and looking and starting to categorize things. A lot of bank apps these days do the categories for you and actually look at where your money is going. Then you can decide if you want to cut here. Then you could decide, "Oh, I need to spend more money on the things that I really value."

Erin: We really value your time, your insight, and your wonderful presence here today. Thank you so much, Melissa, for joining us on REAL TIME.

Melissa: Thank you, Erin. It was a gift.

Erin: Oh, thanks. Money doesn't have to be a taboo topic. Melissa shared some great stories and insights about how we spend and why we spend. Hopefully, you now have some more tools in your toolkit to start your own path to financial confidence. As always, if you liked this episode, please tell us by giving us a rating or review on your preferred podcast platform. We always, always appreciate it. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA. Production is courtesy of Alphabet® Creative with tech support from Rob Whitehead. Thank you so much for watching and for listening. I'm Erin Davis, and we'll talk to you next time on REAL TIME.

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From a trailer park in Newfoundland to buying properties and land across Canada, to even buying and selling homes in the United States, Canadian actor and comedian Shaun Majumder has lived all over North America—in many types of homes. His life journey can be mapped through real estates, with emotional memories attached to every move.

On this episode of REAL TIME, Shaun joins us from CREA PAC Days 2024 to share his first memory of home, how his different moves helped shape his journey and experiences, and how finding the right REALTOR® was more about than just who was the most knowledgeable—it was about who was the best fit.

Transcript

Erin Davis: Fill in the blank. Home is? If you thought, "Where the heart is," you're not alone, but what does that really mean? It can change as we go through life. It's your family home where your childhood memories were made. It's a college dorm room where you felt like an adult for the first time in your life. It's the home in a new city halfway across the country where you decided you wanted to start fresh.

If you think about it, many of our life stories can really be told through real estate in some form or another. We're going to have ups and downs, but there's always something to learn along the way. Hi, I'm Erin Davis, and welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS®, brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association.

Today we're joined by Shaun Majumder, an actor and comedian who's been through his fair share of moves and who's joining us to share his own life's journey through real estate. Shaun, after all of these years of welcoming you into our homes, it seems redundant to welcome you here, but it's so good to have you talking with us today on REAL TIME. Thank you for making the time for us.

Shaun Majumder: It is my pleasure. It is so good to be here, and I'm currently in Ottawa, and I believe you are where currently right now as we sit here?

Erin: Southern Vancouver Island. Isn't technology grand?

Shaun: Very exciting.

Erin: Yes.

Shaun: I know. I'm still on Los Angeles time because I flew in from LA yesterday to be here, so we are on the exact same timeframe. We're all unified.

Erin: Wonderful.

Shaun: It's beautiful.

Erin: Yes, and I know we'll be on the same wavelength today as well as we talk about home and what it's meant to you and your whole realty and real estate experience through the years, but let's go back to what is your first memory of home? You're so good with words. Paint a picture for us.

Shaun: Growing up in rural Newfoundland, I was raised in a tiny town, 350 people with no money. The thing that I was focused on, I think as a little child, was my mom who took great care of us. It was me, my mom, my sister and my wiener dog. It was about shelter. It was about survival. We were literally, we needed to live somewhere.

When I think about the stories that come from the places that you live, as adults, we focus on things like square footage, and we think about the markets and mortgage rates. I had no exposure to this ever growing up and even up until only a short while ago, my real estate education was so bad. I didn't even understand like buying a house. How do you do that? Can you afford it? What does it mean for your future? Is that an investment or is it just a place to live? All of these things have come to me as I've gotten older.

My very first place that I ever remember being inside of and calling it a home, my mom, I think, she basically moved us into this tiny little trailer. It was like a tin box. It was the safe space for me. It held off crazy Newfoundland winter storms. It was a place of love and warmth and safety and security. At least that was from my perspective growing up. Now if you look at it now, dude, it was a health hazard. There were electrical wires that were exposed. There were rats running around. When I think about now, it was like we had nothing. I remember the floors had that roll on plastic canvas. The technology has come a long way now. The smell of mold and mildew.

Oh, God, the memories are taking me back. This was my first home. It was so funny. I was actually sitting down, and I was writing some things out. I actually was like, "Well, what would that place, if we were doing an MLS® listing--" Remember, now, this is a tiny little shack, sort of near the ocean in small town, Newfoundland. Questionable running water at times. Hot? Forget about it. This is how I would try to put this listing up. "Ocean front hideaway with vintage charm."

Erin: Oh. I love it.

Shaun: "750 square foot, two beds, one bath, ocean views. Step into this exclusive aluminum clad retreat boasting an expansive 750 square foot of rustic charm from the earthy aroma of the authentic moldy vinyl floors to the exposed electrical wiring that gives a peek into the home's inner workings. Every detail is a testament to this timeless character with cozy six-foot ceilings," honestly, it was a hobbit home, "creating an intimate atmosphere. You'll love the vintage appeal of the cupboards, some delightfully loose on their hinges to provide open shelving." They were falling apart, basically.

"Enjoy the added peace of mind with walls lightly packed with asbestos. A natural fireproofing solution ensuring that no flame will threaten your trailer. Except of course, the occasional whiff of mesothelioma. For nature lovers, the kitchen comes complete with furry residents." We had rats. Yes, we did. "Under the sink connecting you with the wildlife outside."

It's pretty amazing how you can frame something. Again, when we talk about the importance of a home and how it informs you as a human being, these were my earliest memories for me. They were some of the most positive memories for me because it was about the people that were in that home and the creatures that were there, not the rats, but my wiener dog, I'll never forget. When I started this journey on this planet, that was the bar that was set for me. At a very early age, the concept going from that to anywhere where I am now, that's the frame of reference. Everything beyond that was a bonus. You know what I mean?

Erin: Yes, I totally do.

Shaun: When I think about housing and I think about where we lived, and it has its pros and cons because now my understanding of what real estate is and how much is too much and what is the value, I've never been able to really wrap my head around it, to get a really good compass, unless you sit down and you really, really educate on the academic level exactly what market means and what value means. What is value? I think that's an important thing, yes.

Erin: Right. Value is what your heart sets and not just what the market says. By the way, that listing you read me, I think it sounds charming. Do you have a price?

Shaun: I think, no. No, it is no longer there. I've been back to Burlington many times. Someone bought it, but I think they might've bought it for $500 or something like that.

Erin: Yet your memories are priceless. I'm picturing you just riding around the area with other kids on your bikes, making those childhood dreams. Okay, the rodents weren't your pets, but they could have been. In a Stephen King novel, they would have been. It's just, that's the picture of home. I have to fast forward to now with two children of your own, and I know we're jumping ahead. We'll go back to the middle, I promise you. If your children ever say, "Daddy, I need a bigger room." Do you ever go back to that trailer and go, "Okay, wait a minute." Does it sort of form your entire perspective for what your children have now? Does it give you that foundation?

Shaun: It's interesting because I'm not attached to my early days of where I lived as a way of saying, "Hey, listen, we don't need more space." Because I lived in a place that had no space. I think what it did, it gave me a perspective of being grateful and being thankful and being conscious of what really matters. I think that's what it taught me early on. Coming from not much, and I say that, graded on a curve because I had everything. That's how I looked at it. I think what it did is instilled in me, coming from that place, I think, my journey is different than someone, let's say, who was raised in a seven-bedroom house in a really nice area. Once you start your life there, then everything is about comparative, everything is comparisons and comps at that point.

For my kids now, it's interesting because my kids, one was born in Los Angeles, one was born in Petoskey, Michigan. We have a nice house in Los Angeles. She only knows the nice house in Los Angeles, the house that I now live in currently. Both of them, both girls, one is two, one is five. It's interesting because now I think, "Okay, well, wherever we go next, and what the future will be for them, that's their baseline." However, we go back to Newfoundland a lot. We spend time in one of the houses that I did buy, which is another property that blows me away.

Now I'd be curious to hear what the listeners think of this. My journey in real estate, again, it goes from small town, Newfoundland, to probably Ontario, then to Los Angeles. That's a combination of renting. That's a combination of owning some things. Owning came later, and I'll get to that. By bringing my daughters back to the same place where I was raised, I think is a very grounding thing.

We have a small house there. Very small. It's a little box that's maybe, man, it's maybe 50 by 50. It was an old saltbox house, that when my dad, before he passed away, he wanted to go back to Newfoundland. He's from India. His story is an amazing story, too, which would be a different podcast. I remember my dad was about ready to retire in Mississauga. He was living in Mississauga at the time. He was done working for Petro-Canada. He was like, "Shaun, I think I want to go back to by the ocean. I want to retire there. I want to have a nice life there."

I was home one year, and I asked around, I'm like, "Is there any houses available? What's going on?" There was one house that was on the ocean. Beautiful spot, beautiful little piece of land. I asked, I go, "Can I get that? Is it available?" "Yes, they might sell to you." By now I'd been on TV for a little while. They were going to take me for a ride. They were like, "Oh, Shaun Majumder, he's rich."

Erin: Yes. He can afford it.

Shaun: I ended up buying a house on the ocean for $25,000. It was a rip off. A rip off in the way that other people were like, "You paid what? That is way too much." I'm like, "Wait a minute." I live in LA now. I know that the value of this house on the ocean. $25,000. Nevermind that. Before I bought this house, I actually bought another property. This is even crazier.

The very first thing I ever bought was I went home, and I was asking around for land generally just for me. A friend said, "Oh, yes, I think the school that you went to when you were a little kid. I think the guy who owns that now is looking to get rid of it. Do you want to talk to him?" I said, "Yes, sure. How much?" I talked to him. The school that I went to in the middle of a town by the ocean $2,700. $2,700. This is before I was on TV a lot. It was just enough. He didn't try to take me for a ride. He was like, "Yes, take it 27." There's still back taxes that are owed on it. Is another $750. I got nailed on that. Still a piece of land anywhere on planet Earth for $2,700 near the ocean, and the school that I went to, it was crazy.

Erin: What did you do with that school? What did you do with it, Shaun?

Shaun: The school, it was a decrepit building. Locally, there were people who went, and they took it down and they reused some of the wood and they took the copper out and they cleaned the site. Basically, it's a land that exists there now. When I think about value, and I think about the amount of money and then I go to LA, I'm at an apartment building that I'm renting there for $1,250 a month, which actually was really good at the time. It was locked in. The life experiences I was having there were amazing. Then they were turning those condo buildings, they were going to sell them. We had to leave.

I was like, "Okay, well, what am I going to do?" I met my current wife now, we were living there as a couple. She was like, "Yes, you got to go buy a house?" I'm like, "I can't afford a house. A house in LA? Are you kidding me?" Then my business manager at the time, he applied for a loan, and I was approved for a half a million-dollar loan. Half a million. I was like, "What? Half of a million. A million, half of that I get to have and do something with for a house? Oh my gosh, I'm going to buy a mansion. This is it." I didn't know that I could do that.

Again, this all goes back to my tiny trailer in small town Newfoundland. Then also $2,700 for a piece of property, $25,000, half a million. I get this loan and I'm like, "We got to find a house." Then we started looking and there was nothing like that was livable for half a million. Again, it's all perspective. We ended up buying my first house, proper house in an area in Los Angeles, California that was a little outside the main area. It was a small two bedroom. I believe the square footage was 2,600 square feet. It wasn't a big house, but it was up on a hill facing west, beautiful sunset views, everything that we could ask for. Me and my new-found love of my life.

I literally carried her across a threshold. We bought a house, it's amazing. The area was amazing, at least up on the hill, because then we started watching a TV show called Gangland. There was an episode of Gangland that was talking about this one particular group called the Avenues Gang. There was a story about a beheading, literally a beheading that happened. I was like, "Oh, wait, that street looks familiar." It was just down the hill from where we had just bought this house.

As it turns out, the area that we were in, we drove through that street all the time. It was like a hornet's nest of gangs that still were there. We're like, "Oh my gosh, this is insane, right?" It didn't feel unsafe. It wasn't unsafe. It was unsafe. The house itself was up on the hill. Again, I'm not the same as my girlfriend at the time. Being female in Los Angeles is a different experience. I'm sorry, but it is. Meaning like, again, as a man, we don't think about the same things that perhaps she would think about it. She said this to me, she's like, "You have no idea. We think about everything differently when it comes to security and safety." I'm very, "Ah, nothing bad will ever happen." Which is not the best approach.

Erin: You've had a lot of experiences and even before, of course, your marriage about 12 years ago. Let us get you back from Newfoundland and you mentioned Ontario briefly and then on to Los Angeles. Let's carry on down this road of adventures and how you felt with each progressive move, Shaun.

Shaun: Yes, each progression really informed me of different things at different times in my life. I think that's something that, again, I was never educated about the importance of home purchasing. I never thought of real estate as real estate. I never did. All I thought about was, "Where am I going to live and where am I living now?" I didn't think about at the time, like when I moved from Newfoundland to Ontario, that was an interesting journey because my parents had split when I was a baby. That's why I was living with my mom in small town, Newfoundland, with my sister and my wiener dog named Wiener, by the way.

Erin: Creative.

Shaun: Awesome name, mom. Awesome name. When I lived there with my mom and my sister, and then I guess there were some high-level discussions between mom and dad about mom moving back in with dad, but for the sake of the family. That was the thing. It's like, "Let's all live together as a family and, mom, you can leave Newfoundland and come to Ontario." I guess this was the discussion they were having.

We picked up and we left my childhood home. I remember we were in a U-Haul and we were driving down the highway and I was leaving my town behind and I was sad and it was very hard. I knew I was going somewhere that I was a huge fan of, and that was Toronto. Toronto was everything to me because my dad lived there and I looked up to him and I was a fan of him. I was a Toronto Blue Jay fan back in the day of the Ernie Whitt days, the Alfredo Griffin days. I was a huge baseball fan. I was a huge Toronto Maple Leaf fan. I bled blue and white, and I guess a little bit of red for the Jays. It was just like, everything was Toronto and I'm going to Toronto. We got on the ferry and we were heading up and we got there.

I remember driving and seeing the CN Tower and we kept going and we kept-- I'm like, "There's Toronto. Why are we still driving? Toronto's back there. Where are we going? Dad, where are you taking us?" "Mississauga." "What? Mrs. What?" This is '80s Mississauga. Not cool, sexy, one of the greatest places to live in the world now, so they say. Mississauga with their absolute towers. By the way, the architect must've been drinking a ton of Absolute while designing those buildings, they're beautiful, but they're a little twisty. I don't know.

Erin: Yes. The Marilyn Monroe. Yes.

Shaun: Yes. We ended up at Mississauga. It wasn't Toronto and it was very different than what I imagined. He had said we're moving into a semi-detached townhouse. Is that safe? I'm like, "Wait, it's semi-detached. Is it fully attached? What are we talking about?" This description of a building, a semi-detached townhouse did not feel secure and safe for me as a kid who-- I'm just trying to want a secure place to live.

We ended up at a place 2315 Bromsgrove Road in a semi-detached townhouse, a condo, which was very strange for me, but it was like a little community because it was in one of those townhouse complexes that had their own road. It was like a campground, but it wasn't. It was very interesting. It turned me to the gang life because I was a little Brown fella that had a little mustache. I looked ambiguously ethnic. I fit right in, but they were recruiting me, the new kid, and we would do terrible things like throw crab apples at cars driving by and water balloons.

This new place that I live now with people of all these different ethnicities, which was amazing to me, it blew me away. Now I was in this multicultural, rich, diverse, Jamaican, Trinidad, India, Asian culture, everything was there mashed up, which was a far cry from where I was before, in small town, white Newfoundland. I thought I was white. I didn't know I was anything but white growing up, but then apparently no, I'm ethnic now. I was like, "Okay, I'm ethnic now. I love it."

Living in Mississauga was like, "Oh my gosh, this is such a strange and amazing place," but I loved it. I loved it. It took some getting used to, but the parents moving in with each other, not a good idea. Not a good idea. Bad. They were divorced for a reason. Now we're living in a townhouse. I'm like a young teenage tweenage fella with a mom and dad who are always fighting. Me and my sister always fought. I brought my wiener dog, and he had a Springer Spaniel and those dogs were always fighting. It was a very stress-free, relaxed, casual vibe in Mississauga where I was living.

My teenage years of thinking about what Mississauga was like, semi-detached condo, it was community, but it was definitely a stressful time. Then my mom moved out and we went into a high-rise building on Bodmin Road, which was not far, which informed me of a whole new life where now it was high-rise living.

Erin: Elevators.

Shaun: Elevators. That was huge. It was also interesting because my mom, she was working at an old folks' home. She was a nurse. She would literally, it was me and my mom, my sister stayed with my dad in the condominium down the street. Then it was me, my mom, she would work from 11:00 at night to 7:00 in the morning. Then I had an apartment to myself from 11:00 till 7:00. That led to me, like you would when you're 15 living in Mississauga, you pick up the keys to the Hyundai Stellar and you're going to go for a little drive because I still had gang ties. I use gang very loosely here, guys. I wasn't really a part of a gang.

Erin: The crab apple gang, yes.

Shaun: The crab apple gang. We would take my Hyundai Stellar and we'd go for a ride around just that street area at night. One night, I'll never forget it. This is all because of where I live now. Keep this in mind. This is all real estate related. Because I lived in this apartment, I remember we parked the Hyundai Stellar next to the Miracle Food Mart. We all went in because we were going to go get some gum. Came back out, car was gone. I was like, "What's going on?" A guy goes, "Is that your car, bud?" I looked and the car was out of park and rolling towards traffic slowly because it wasn't a steep.

I was running towards this car and luckily the grass and the curb stopped it just before it went into traffic. I was 15. What that would have done to my life if that car went out into that thing. Again, this was all because of where I was living at the time in a very low rent place. Again, speaking to the low rent side of things, I didn't understand what that meant. How hard that must have been for my mom too, who was just fighting to work long enough just to pay rent. This idea of rent and stresses around rent was something that I was unaware of until later in life. Anyway, yes, these are just little stories about where I lived and how it informed my perspective,

Erin: It's sad that the year that you signed on with This Hour Has 22 Minutes is the year that she passed away. Did she get to get even a glimpse of the success that you were about to achieve, Shaun?

Shaun: She saw some early successes. She saw me on YTV. That was huge. That was huge, working on television. She saw me doing lots of standup and stuff like that. She was an amazing mom. She passed away in 2003, and it was interesting because we went back into that apartment, the same apartment I'm talking about, after she passed away. Her sister was there, and she said something really powerful.

I remember we were going through all of mom's stuff, and my aunt, she was really upset, obviously. One thing she said was she was like, "This may not be a lot where we are right here in this place, but she was doing everything she could to make it the best place it could possibly be." Again, that goes back to the trailer, the original trailer that we lived in, where there was no moment in my life where I felt like we didn't have. There was no moment in my life where I feel like we were lacking in any way, shape, or form.

That's powerful when you think about it, when we think about real estate, and we think about purchasing things, and how it informs who we are as people. We attach our identity to a lot of things. I think that no matter the square footage, no matter the value of your house, no matter how big or fancy, coming from where I came from, and the way mom instilled that value system in me, again, it goes back to the good and the bad of that.

When I think about my education and my knowledge of real estate, it had the ups and downs. I think at the core, it definitely makes me super thankful for everything that I have moving beyond that. Then to instill those values in my daughters as well. I think that's going to be very important. It's hard. It's hard when your first thing that you have is something really nice.

Erin: Yes, it's true.

Shaun: How then do you navigate managing expectations, I think, from that point on?

Erin: So true. Let me ask you, Shaun. When you lay in bed, either in the trailer and a bed, undoubtedly that you shared with your sister and of course, Wiener, the Wiener dog.

Shaun: Exactly, and a few bed bugs.

Erin: Yes, well, we'll leave those out for the next podcast.

Shaun: Please do.

Erin: Then the next iteration in the semi-detached townhouse that you thought would be so close to the then SkyDome. When you lay in bed, what did you think of when you thought, "When I make it, here's where I'm going to live?" What was that dream or what you pictured and did it come to fruition?

Shaun: I didn't have a dream. I didn't have a dream. I didn't. Again, this goes back, this is what I'm saying. I never dreamt of the nice house. Again, I was like, "I need to make enough money to pay rent. I need to be able to have a decent place to live." I didn't think in my mind that-- it's about value. Again, I didn't have the dream. It's so interesting because the dreams only came when the wife came. When Shelby came into my life.

Now this is interesting because she is incredibly astute and knowledgeable of the things that I was not. Value, real estate. For some reason, she was obsessed with real estate from very early on. She loved markets. She loved seeing what houses were selling for what in what neighborhoods. Thank God she came into my life, because she was the one who was first to say, "Hey, look, I think you should purchase something." This is in Los Angeles, but I was like, "I can't afford it." Of course, I can afford it. I just didn't understand how the system worked.

When I saw the price of a house, I was like, "I can't buy that." You don't buy that. You get a loan, and you understand leveraging value and understanding your interest rates and monthly payments. I did not know any of this stuff. When we bought that first house, I think that was the first time where I started to see is like, "Oh my God, Shelby, you're right. Buying a house, not only is it an amazing investment, but it's also something that then moving forward gives you leverage to get you into whatever that next thing is."

That first house in Los Angeles, again, it was 665,000. We put maybe 60,000 to 100,000 into the house. We bought that house, I think it was in 2005. We were like, "Boom," we saw that value starting to go up, to go tick up. I wasn't tracking value. Again, I didn't even understand what that meant. I didn't look for that. Then 2007 rolled around, then 2008 rolled around.

Erin: Yikes.

Shaun: Shelby was freaking out. I was like, "What do you mean?" She would track it, she's looking, she's like, "Our house is now half the value that it was only a few years ago." That was a scary thing. At the same time, I was like, "Are we selling? We're not selling, so it's going to come back. I'm sure it'll come back." She was like, "No, it's never going to come back." Luckily it did come back. We were also on the backside of that, I think it was in 2000 and-- we held on to that house for a long time.

Then we were in a position where, again, Shelby was dialed into the real estate market and she found a house that was over in one of the nicest areas in Los Angeles, one of the most desirable neighborhoods in Los Angeles. She's like, "It's a screaming deal. This is a screaming deal for this house." It was north of a million dollars. Again, I'm sorry, but as a tiny town Newfoundland guy, I'm like, "Hey, a million bucks. Are you kidding me? We can't afford that." She was like, "Of course you can. What is wrong with you? We have the leverage of this house versus that house."

Then we were like, "Okay, well, we're going to sell this house and we're going to buy this other house." She found a house that she really liked. I was like, "Oh, my God, it's an amazing house," but I was nervous about it. The way that it worked was the only way we would get approved for the house over here was if it was contingent on the sale. Our house over here didn't appraise at the value. It was under what we were listing it for.

The buyers were like, "No, we're not going to take it at that price that we agreed to already. Now that it is appraised here, you got to sell it for here." It would have put us even on this house. As it turns out, we were getting a screaming deal on this house over here. It ended up working out. That's now the house that I'm in right now, which is a house that has appreciated exponentially over the last bunch of years.

Again, not something I could have imagined or foresaw because I just was never wired or taught, and I think that's important to take away now when I look at it now with the-- I'm stoked on real estate now. I'm like, "Oh my God, I want to know more. I want to do more. I want to buy more. I want to educate myself." It's a little late in the game for me, but it's never too late to really dive in.

Over the years too, not only that, I've bought buildings, I've bought buildings with partners that have been up and down. One of them, I invested in a small hotel that was in Santa Barbara that my business manager said, "Throw me 30K and we'll say that broke even." I found out later, this is a funny story, that the same company that had that hotel wanted to buy a small hotel in Newfoundland, the Battery Hotel in St. John's, Newfoundland, and they wanted to call it Hotel California. I was like, "Hmm."

Erin: No. You can check out anytime you want.

Shaun: "I think managing expectations there." Probably wouldn't call it that. Don't call it that. I'll invest in it, but I will-- I bought another building with a partner of mine, Ron Lovett, who is doing incredible work. I just got to give him a huge shout out. He has a company called Vita Living. He is reframing the affordable housing market. He's blowing it up. He's doing incredible work. Look up Vita Living, Ron Lovett.

I bought one of my first buildings, and I think one of his first buildings, we bought together just outside of Halifax, understanding the rules around the tenant laws and how incredibly hard and difficult that can be to manage. Thank God I wasn't managing that, he was. Over the years, I've done different things in the real estate market. Again, a home is a home is a home. That is what really matters to me now when I think about buying currently for my family, my little nuclear family. That's going to be really interesting moving forward.

Erin: I know you don't want to give advice. That's not what you're here for today. You've done such a wonderful job of painting pictures of the places in your life that you have lived and your adventures. Where do the basic skills and talents of the good comedian, the good improv artist, the yes and, and the listener, the person moving the conversation forward as being in kindred spirit with good REALTORS®?

Shaun: Yes, I think your relationship with your REALTOR® is one of the most important ones. Seeing a REALTOR®, meeting a REALTOR®, hearing their pitch, hearing how they manage expectations I think is a really important factor when you are partnering with a REALTOR®. I've had several different REALTORS®. I've had different agents as an actor, and I think bottom line, authenticity is one thing that I feel like is so important.

A person who is authentic, a person who is a great listener, I think a person who is a great no BS kind of a person too, because I think that you can have an agent who can tell you so many great things that you want to hear. One thing that I've learned, whether it's in the industry that I'm in as an actor, as a creative person, we can be susceptible to hearing the things that are going to get us excited about partnering because they're going to promise the world. "We're going to do this, we're going to get you this, and this is going to happen."

I find that, in both the acting agent world and the real estate agent world, the grounded, practical, but also forward-thinking strategic REALTORS®, they're the ones that I've always responded well to. We're actually talking to a REALTOR® right now. There were two REALTORS® that I spoke with over the last little while. This is really interesting. We met with a guy who came to our house. He's a star of one of these reality shows and he's a great guy. He's a super great guy, but he deals with $10 to $50 million homes in on the Sunset Strip. We met with him, come look at our house, talk to us about-- he was enthusiastic out of the gates when we sent him a note.

It was like, "We're going to come, we're going to have a conversation." His conversation is immediate reaction to the house. When we were talking about the number that we were looking at, hoping to get, or we had a general idea as to what we were hoping to get, his first reaction was, "No, you're never going to get that. You're never going to get that." Then I was like, "Okay, well, I don't mind being schooled on what the market is doing right now." He had answers before the questions and that was something that turned us off no matter what, maybe he's absolutely right. There was an initial interaction with us that really was a bit of a turnoff.

Then I met with another guy. He sat down, he was the warmest. He said, "Listen, we're not even going to think about a price right now. What we're going to do is we're going to talk about your needs, what you're looking to do. We're going to be honest about what we think is realistic. We're going to come up with a strategy, but we're not going to come up with any pricing until we get to that place. Because also the market is like the wind, who knows what's going to happen with the upcoming election? Who knows what's going to happen with interest rates? Are they going to go up? Are they going to go down? Let's see what the buyers are." This was the conversation we were having.

Immediately I was like, "I love this guy. I love his vibe. He listens, he's practical. He knows my local area incredibly well. He's got a good team." It was just that vibe immediately that made me go, "This is somebody that I can work with and that I really want to work with to make this. If we're going to put our house up, this is the personality that I would be interested in working with."

I think, any advice that I can say to REALTORS®, I guess, from a buyer or seller perspective, I know that you guys do workshops. I know that you guys have trained through the wazoo. I will say on a very simple person to person, experience. Being a great listener is one of the most important things and I'm going through it right now. I just had that experience that it made me feel really comfortable with this REALTOR® who listened to where we were at, what we wanted to get from our house. He was also very grounded and practical at the same time.

Erin: You have made better listeners of all of us today, Shaun. You really, truly have. It's been such a pleasure.

Shaun: I hope you can make sense of some of the crazy.

Erin: Are you kidding? What a life.

Shaun: Yes. I hope you can make sense of some of what I was talking about.

Erin: Absolutely.

Shaun: Yes, for me, I'm driven by story and real estate has become such a huge part of my story, not in the buying and selling perspective, but the places we live. I think we can lose sight of the importance of where we live and experience, and the value of that when we talk about real estate. It's not all about numbers and value in the market. It's about value in life. When I think about all of this, it's more about the ROI in the life experience versus dollars down.

Erin: Shaun, just before we go, we have heard where you're from and now you would like our listeners and viewers to go to from. Can you make sense of that sentence for me, please?

Shaun: I can. From, people are freaking out about this show. It's a show we started making in during COVID. It's shot in Halifax. It has a Canadian connection. It's a horror series that Stephen King loves. He thinks it's one of the scariest shows on TV. It's a really cool show about a small town where people get trapped, and they can't get out. At night monsters come out and eat you. Just like my experience growing up a small town, Newfoundland. It's a great show. I would encourage you all to go watch it from the beginning. It's the same people that did Lost. It's a puzzle show, you got to figure it out. For those of you who know, you already know, it's taken the world by storm right now. Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed this conversation.

Erin: Congratulations, Shaun, on that, on everything. Thanks again for joining us here today. We're so grateful.

Shaun: Thank you so much.

Erin: As always, if you liked this episode, and we're sure you did, please tell us by giving us a rating or review on your preferred podcast platform. We always appreciate it. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA. Production is courtesy of Alphabet® Creative, with tech support from Rob Whitehead. Thank you so much for watching and for listening. I'm Erin Davis, and we'll see you next time on REAL TIME.

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There are countless ways to succeed in real estate and no two individuals take the exact same route—so, how then does a real estate professional confidently make their next move? There’s so much to learn from other REALTORS® and those who have been in the industry for a long period of time, or have taken a unique path to success.

Mentorship doesn’t just benefit the mentees—mentors also have a lot to gain—like leadership skills, a helping create a more vibrant industry, improved communication skills, insight from different perspectives, a broader network, and boosted confidence. For mentees, the guidance and knowledge transfer is invaluable, networking opportunities can help grow your business, and learning the ins and outs of the industry from someone who’s been through it already can help boost your confidence, too.

Nicole Christy, CEO at the Ottawa Real Estate Board, and Rachel Gagnon, REALTOR® and Top 35 Under 35 with Royal Lepage, join the latest episode of the REAL TIME podcast to talk about their experience with mentorship and how it’s helped their careers.

Transcript

Erin Davis: What did you do the last time you were stuck overthinking a decision you had to make at work or were uncertain what your next move should be in a sticky situation? Who do you trust to help with those tough calls? Real estate mentorship can be a mutually beneficial experience for both the mentor and the mentee and it's something that REALTORS® and real estate professionals alike can explore throughout their entire career, not just in the beginning. Learning never stops. No matter your age, your career or your journey, there's always something to be learned and someone to learn from.

Hi, I'm Erin Davis, and welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS® brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association.

Erin: To get a better understanding of what exactly real estate mentorship entails and how to go about creating a successful mentor-mentee relationship, we have two incredible real estate professionals with us who are well-versed in this environment. Joining us today are Nicole Christy, CEO of Ottawa Real Estate Board, and Rachel Gagnon, a top 35 under 35 REALTOR® with Royal LePage. Hello to you both and thank you so much for joining us today to talk about mentorship within the REALTOR® association community.

Now just before we dive in, let's start by having you introduce yourselves, give us a bit of background on who you are and how real estate mentorship has been a part of your career and we're going to start with you, Nicole.

Nicole Christy: Perfect. Thank you, Erin. Yes, I have been in the real estate industry for almost 15 years. I got my start at the Canadian Real Estate Association. It was a co-op position coming out of the University of Ottawa and I've taken the experience, I've learned there, and I've worked for some of the top tier advocacy associations here in Ottawa. Returned to the real estate community back in 2021 when I joined with the London St. Thomas Association of REALTORS® to begin work at the local level. Now I'm here in Ottawa as the CEO of the Ottawa Real Estate Board.

Erin: You, Rachel, what's your story?

Rachel: Yes, so I actually started in the real estate industry in 2015. I was licensed in 2015 as a 19-year-old and I'm a real estate broker here in Ottawa with Royal LePage Performance Realty. I got my start in the industry with a very small brokerage on a very small team, and then a few years later, I transitioned to becoming a solo agent in a large brokerage, and now I'm just in the process of building my own small team.

Erin: Wow, okay. Let's get right to it. What exactly, to you, is mentorship within the real estate industry, and have your experiences followed a set pattern or structure or do you feel like you developed your own unique model? Rachel.

Rachel: To me, real estate mentorship is really, it's an always evolving, pretty much a daily task. It can be as short and sweet as answering somebody's quick and simple question or it can develop into a career spanning relationship that you build. We all know that our days don't look the same and sometimes you run into something that you never thought you would experience, and you need to turn to see who could potentially guide you into figuring out what the solution is. Sometimes that can just be having a trusted point of contact. You can have a few.

Then I would say that you end up having two or three long-term mentors along the way who you share values with and who you look to when it's maybe something a bit more fluid, a bit more gray, and that you need to see how they transition to the other side in their own career, and then figure out how you're going to implement that into your own.

Erin: As far as you know, is your path similar to those of other REALTORS® that you've spoken with, or did you just follow your own heart?

Rachel: I would say I've been pretty true to myself. I really prefer a one-on-one personal approach with my clients, and I think I've associated myself with mortgage brokers, lawyers, and other r REALTORS® who have the similar values along the way. I would say that I've pretty much followed my own path in that regard. Through the years, I've also looked at how other people have structured their own career and seen how I could implement little bits and pieces of their way of doing things into my own. I would say most REALTORS® end up having their unique path and we all end up in the same direction but take your own path to get there.

Erin: Okay, Nicole, let's hear for you what you say mentorship is within the real estate industry and your experiences.

Nicole: Absolutely. Mine is very similar to Rachel's. I find that mentorship really ebbs and flows throughout your career. Some mentorship opportunities or mentorship experiences that you seek out, they have a really short time horizon. They're issue-specific. You're maybe joining a new brokerage or you're joining a new association, and you need to learn the ropes of this new environment. It might be something short-lived like an onboarding. Then there's mentorships that I've been able to benefit from throughout my career. I've been able to turn to these folks at times where I'm struggling, whether it's professionally or personally, to get a sense of how they would manage, navigate these circumstances.

Sometimes you just need somebody who's going to be able to hold up a mirror and give you feedback that's sometimes hard to hear but it's necessary for growth. That's what I've appreciated in the people that have formed that inner circle for me. They're there when I need them. They're a text, a phone call, a Zoom call away, and they're happy to provide that feedback that I need that maybe I don't want to hear in the moment, but that will give me that growth opportunity.

Erin: Nicole, it seems too, if I'm hearing both you and Rachel correctly, that this isn't just a one-way flow of information.

Rachel: Oh, no.

Erin: It's not just you getting everything. It's you sharing what with your peers as well.

Nicole: Absolutely. This is a two-way street. As that relationship grows and it becomes often more of a friendship, it's a mentorship still, but it's a friendship. It could be a colleagueship. It could take a bunch of different forms. While you're sharing your experiences, they're learning a little bit of what's going on in the industry, what's going on at the association, what's going on with the board or the brokerage, and they're benefiting from this exchange. It's an exchange of information, ideas, opinions, and it's something that they then can use for their own benefit as well.

Often you find that your mentors or your mentees are ways to bridge into new opportunities for yourself. As you're having these conversations, they're connecting you with their networks and you're being able to benefit from the relationship that you formed.

Erin: How long does a mentorship usually last? Can you answer that for us first, Rachel?

Rachel: I like to keep it very organic. I think it's very normal that when you have a certain situation that you're trying to get through, that you realize when you've gained the information that you need in order to get to the other side. Then at that point, it just becomes a natural professional or personal relationship, and like Nicole said, typically they become friends. You look to them for professional guidance, and then at a certain point, you get to know them as people and their relationship gradually changes within your life. It's not to say you won't circle back, but I would say that sometimes it's a case-by-case basis, and then sometimes it's a longer growth process that you're looking to go through.

You'll check in with them here and there maybe on a more formal basis, and then sometimes it's in passing just when you touch base on other topics.

Erin: People understand that, right? In the mentor-mentee relationship, is that unspoken that it might turn into a hop-on, hop-off kind of experience, Rachel?

Rachel: I think so. I think everybody is willing to share their knowledge. Even just before jumping on this phone call, I had an agent call me just to pick my brain. At the same time, I'm not necessarily expecting her to call me every time that she has a situation she runs into, but she knows that door is open. Likewise, if I run into a situation, I know that door is open. I think everybody's respectful of each other's times. It's a relationship that you understand once it's established.

Erin: Is there an importance, and we've spoken about this in previous episodes, especially as it pertains to working at home, working in an office, and all of the work that REALTORS® do, is it important to set boundaries in the mentor-mentee relationship? Have you found that, Nicole?

Nicole: I think that there is a respect that you have to form for each other and each other's time. There is definitely boundar,ies and barriers to how much you want to push someone into their personal time. I do find that if you're looking to start a mentor-mentee relationship, having a conversation, a coffee, starting somewhere with just an information interview, if you will, seeing if this is a person that has the time to be a mentor. Or you're a mentor, is this someone who is the right values alignment for you as a mentee? Because you have to build rapport, and you have to make sure that you're able to support what the needs are in either situation.

It can be challenging, especially, and I'm sure Rachel can speak to it, the real estate industry is cyclical. There's ebbs and flows there too, and people might be busy. If they're busy, they do really need to focus on their career in certain instances or their clients or their families and they may not have space, the capacity to be everything you need them to be in that moment. It's probably something short-lived if you have built a relationship with this person over time, but respecting that and understanding that they can't be everything to you all the time.

Rachel: Yes, I think Nicole hit the nail on the head with what she said, and I think accountability is also a huge one. Whether it's as a mentee, you want to know what's working, and then on the flip side, I would say that as a mentor, you want to know that what you're saying, the person's taking to heart, they're implementing certain portions into their day-to-day, and that you can see that there is growth. It's one thing to talk somebody through a situation, but then when they circle back, whether it's three, six, eight months later, you want to know that progress was made because if at a certain point, it just needs to go somewhere.

Nicole: Sometimes you have to be honest with yourself too. You may not be the resource they need. As a real estate agent or as association staff, we have a limited amount of expertise and we shouldn't be bridging into some of the professional guidance or information that needs to be probably communicated. Is this legal advice you should be seeking? Is this a different professional that should be weighing in here? I may not be the person that you need in this moment.

Erin: How do when you could use a mentor? Let me ask you that, and we'll start with you, Nicole.

Nicole: I think it's if you're at a pivotal moment where you have a decision to make or that you're stepping into an area where you're not familiar. You're joining a new brokerage, you're joining a new association, you are in a different type of client relationship, or maybe it's a piece of the market that you haven't really had experience in. I think that's when you should be looking for somebody to help you navigate a little bit and act as a sounding board. I think you'll know you're ready because you're going to be hopefully self-aware and able to say, "I am maybe not completely confident here.

This is an area that I want to put my right foot forward, I want to serve my clients well, I want to serve the members well," depending on your audience, "and to do so, I'm going to need some input, I'm going to need some support." You may not be reaching out to one person, you might be reaching out to quite a few to get a sampling of what you need to do because as a mentor as well, we have to be comfortable with people taking just what they need from us. They're looking for our opinion, they can't be expected to take everything. Maybe it won't work for them, but parts will.

Erin: Rachel, because you began at such a young age, often when we start something, we don't know what we don't know. How did that you needed a mentor, and then how did you go about getting one?

Rachel: When I started, I didn't have any connections. Confidence was low and obviously, you don't have the knowledge under your belt that the more experienced agents will have. It started off with little tidbits. You grow and you grow through the motions, but then you just get to a certain point where you're ready to take on more. I think Nicole summarized it very well. You just know when you're ready to get to that next level. I think the important part as an agent that's going through those baby steps is knowing how much you're willing to put in to get to that next level. There are times where you'll seek a mentor and they'll give you fantastic information, but you're just not ready to make that jump.

I think being honest with yourself of what your capacities are, what your knowledge is, and getting the information from a few different mentors, like Nicole said, and choosing what bits and pieces you are ready to implement. Maybe you put a little asterisk to refer to some notes of the future, and maybe you circle back to that person when you're ready to dive into that idea more in-depth. You know when you're ready to grow.

Erin: Yes, and as you point out, you can definitely have more than one mentor, so that's good. When we talk about sharing values, which is something that you have both brought up so far, what does that look like? Can we give some examples of what that might mean starting with you, Rachel?

Rachel: Sharing values, honestly, in my opinion, is probably the most important part you can have in terms of looking for a mentor. It's not necessarily that you need to share all of the same values with the mentor you choose, but you need to know what your values are and what the values are for your mentor in order to know how much information you are going to retain from them. Let's say we look at an agent who's one-on-one with their clients and very personable, and they like to have a say in the entire part of the process.

You can go towards a system-based and automation and template-based agent, somebody who really likes to have a lot of structure in their system, but you might go towards them to get mentorship towards how to be more efficient. In terms of how you're going to structure your career as a whole, how you're going to grow through maybe being a solo agent to being a team agent, the people that you're going to collaborate with, how you manage your time, that's a broader subject that you may look towards having a long-term mentor who shares the same values as you.

I think if you go towards a mentor who is successful with the values that you share, in the long run, you're probably going to have a much higher return of the information that they're sharing with you and that you can carry into your own world.

Erin: Nicole, how does that look to you, the sharing the same values?

Nicole: Yes, I think there's an importance in understanding what your top values are in your career. For me, I was looking to grow. I'm a learner just by interest, by personality, and I wanted somebody who is collaborative, somebody who's very transparent. I want to know the good, the bad, the ugly when it comes to how they navigate certain situations. I need somebody who's going to be really transparent with how they manage, how they rose through the system, how they rose through their career, and be really introspective about how they communicate with me so I can learn. If I can learn from the mistakes, the lessons, those are usually where the most growth is.

That is what I'd be looking for somebody who's very transparent, who's very collaborative, who's very open, and who has the time to dedicate to it, and they're also aligned with seeing the success of the industry, seeing the success of the association. Those are key to me.

Erin: Now, there's often the perception that working in real estate can really be quite isolating. When, of course, in reality, it's a large community of professionals working toward common goals, right? We all know that choosing a REALTOR® is such a personal choice, but the same goes for choosing a friend or a mentor. Can you share your experience with this decision-making process for you? Or maybe recommend how somebody who's watching or listening may want to approach it, especially if they're a little bit apprehensive. Rachel.

Rachel: When I first started in 2015, I started with a very small company. We're talking three to five agents at most, and that feels very isolating when you're looking to try and get a different opinion or a different perspective. I went looking to see who I could find that I could resonate with and maybe just get a, again, just a different opinion on how to navigate through certain situations. I remember it was my first year and I was about to submit an offer on this big agent's property. I gave him a call. I was obviously a bit apprehensive to ask him a few questions. Being greener, you don't totally know what direction to take things.

I remember he picked up and he was just the most friendly, genuine person, and just ready to give his time and get to know me in the industry as well. I remember hanging up the phone and saying, "That's the kind of agent that I want to be a few years down the line." Then at that point, we built a relationship, and even circling back to a few years ago, he was my first call when I was looking to transition brokerages. I really valued his perspective on the challenges that I was facing, what I was trying to overcome, and even transitioning from being a team agent to a solo agent. The doubts that I had in giving me confidence and metaphorically holding my hand through the process.

Yes, I think looking outwards and trying to find somebody who shares the same values like we touched on earlier and you'll know. When you find the right person, what they're saying speaks to you and really just treat that relationship with respect.

Erin: Okay, two questions. Did that house sale go through?

Rachel: It did.

Erin: Yay, okay. Is he still somewhat of a mentor to you now or has the relationship changed?

Rachel: He is still, yes. He's still very much my mentor and actually now as I'm transitioning into the next phase of my career, which would be a bit more leadership and less sales, he is definitely my go-to and he knows it. I would say that now that I have years of experience under my belt, he also circles back to me now and it's become a more collaborative relationship like we touched on earlier where he feels like he can gain different perspectives from me and sometimes he has doubts of his own and whether we circle back in person over the phone or sit down for a quick lunch, it's definitely become a reciprocal relationship.

Erin: That sounds wonderful. Wonderful. Okay, Nicole, can you share your experience with your decision-making process or recommend how somebody who might be a little on the fence or apprehensive about getting a mentor, how that would pan out?

Nicole: It's definitely something that you can either seek out. That's looking at people within the industry or within your spheres of your network and seeing something in them, whether it's an experience or they've reached a certain pinnacle in their career and that's where you're looking to go and you can seek them out. Then some of it is just falling into it. Often if it's somebody who's perhaps in a position of authority, so my first mentors were supervisors. They were people that I reported to. They were invested in me.

They wanted to see me grow and the slow constructive criticism or slow constructive feedback that happens with the day-to-day work, I would be ingesting that and I'd be trying to seek out how to do things a little bit better, how to take the next steps. Then slowly that rapport grew where I felt comfortable going to them and saying, "I really do want to learn how to do this. I see myself going here." That's where they were able to provide more strategic advice and say, "Okay, if that's what you want to do, here's where you need to go. Here's the courses you should be taking. Here's the people you should be speaking with."

Often, they're happy to facilitate setting up those meetups, those information coffee meetings where you can leverage the network they have to build to where you want to go. If you're feeling apprehensive and you're either seeking out or you're falling into a mentorship and you just want to expand what that mentorship looks like and just maybe test the waters to see if this is something that person is also interested in entering into with you, I would say just start with just an information session. This is where you just, "Hey, I'd like to take you for coffee and just pick your brain about something. Hey, I just wanted to touch base about this project or this article I saw or this deal that I'm doing."

It's just a one-off, but you're testing the waters to see how they respond and they're getting to know you and you're revealing a little bit more about what you want and where you want to go and you'll take it from there. You'll see if the values align, if the time that they have to dedicate to you is enough for what you need, and then you can formalize it a little bit more. If you're apprehensive, just start with something really organic and something where there's no ask. It's just an information exchange.

Erin: I'm glad you brought up the ask because we all have in our phones those calls that come up or texts and it's always from someone who only gets in touch when they need something. Is there a way for a mentee to give back to the mentor, even in the early stages, so that the mentor feels that they are also getting something out of this relationship besides just the good feeling of helping someone else to succeed? Or is that not in the expectations? I don't know, qhat do you think? Rachel.

Rachel: I would say it's definitely a give and take. Like I have a few newer agents now who are doing what I did in my first year and they'll circle back to me for information, for help in certain circumstances, but if I circle back to them and say, "Hey, I need somebody to help host an open house," or, "Could you help me with this walkthrough," or, "Could you help me with X, Y, Z," whatever it could be, they're always willing. Honestly, it's been a huge part in terms of me transitioning into the mentor role where I know that it's a reciprocal relationship. I know that I'm not just giving and never seeing this person ever again. It definitely helps to keep the motivation up because you're both gaining from each other.

It's not to say that you always have to gain from somebody, but it definitely shows their willingness. It shows that they're willing to constantly give back. Oftentimes, I would say that is a preface to knowing that when they get to the next level, they'll also be willing to help the person that's below them. It's just the gift that keeps on giving. Yes, I definitely think that you don't always have to have it be reciprocal, but it definitely helps both sides when it is.

Erin: Nicole, what do you think of that?

Nicole: I absolutely think that there can be a little bit of give and take. Certainly, we have, in the industry, created these forums where there is a bit of that. We have young professional networks or YPN, sometimes they're called your professional networks. We have them, anyway, in Ottawa at the local, provincial, and national levels where there is these YPNs that connect people who are looking to grow, looking to build a career in the industry, possibly looking at leadership roles in the industry on the volunteer side and connecting them with people who are also eager to see the success of the association of the real estate community and they're coming to provide exchange information, provide information.

I think that in those formats and in those forms, you can see that give and take because those newer agents are coming from careers outside of the industry and now coming into real estate can imbue some of the information that they're providing with their expertise, whether it's demographic information or new understandings of how technology works or different techniques. There's that old adage, you can't teach an old dog new tricks, but you absolutely can. We see at the YPN events, a mix of agents of all experience levels, ages, backgrounds. I think it's a great way to give and take.

Erin: Now, somebody watching or listening today might be going, "Hmm, maybe I would be a good mentor." What are some of the signs that you might be a good mentor? We'll start with you, Rachel.

Rachel: I think if you feel confident in something, and it could be anything. It could be that you are very strong with Google systems or it could be that you feel very confident how to prepare a listing or how to meet with clients in certain circumstances. You could approach your brokerage, let them know that this is something that you feel comfortable talking on and let them know that anytime an agent has a question in that subject, that your door is open. They can give you a call anytime. I think they would appreciate it. It gives a collaborative energy throughout the office or just throughout the industry in general.

On the flip side, if you see agents in passing, particularly the agents that might be a bit more green or have a different expertise level in that subject, you can let them know that your door or your phone is always open if they need a helping hand. Maybe, you never know, somebody could be apprehensive and may not want to reach out, but the fact that you took that first step and opened the door for them, they may just feel that much more comfortable reaching out to you when they need to.

Erin: Nicole, what would you suggest people look at inside themselves for signs that they might make a good mentor?

Nicole: I think part of it is just looking inside and saying, "Do I have the time to dedicate to this? Am I looking to be a part of the future of the industry? Do I want to have a part in how the industry grows in its success?" If the answer is yes to these questions, I think you'd be great to be a mentor. There's ways to seek it out. Obviously, we talked a lot about falling into mentorship, but I think a lot of the things that Rachel said is just putting it out there because people are going to be apprehensive. You have something to offer, but they may not know how best to seek it from you. It could be just also establishing yourself as a subject matter expert.

Being part of social media groups, being part of committees, being part of different aspects of the industry where you can carve out that space as a subject matter expert so people know to come to you. Because you might have some great skills and if people aren't aware that you have a rich career in commercial real estate or that you've come from a background in the finance industry and if they're having questions around investment and things like that, maybe you'd be a good mentor in those fashions. Setting yourself up, putting it out there, establishing yourself as a subject matter expert, and somebody who has the time and capacity to do this, I think those are key.

Erin: Nicole, you already mentioned some of the resources that particularly young people starting out can get into or join in. For somebody who hasn't yet been able to build a professional network, what resources should they look at in a local, provincial, or national level? Do you have some suggestions for us? Then we'll ask Rachel.

Nicole: Absolutely. I think there's a lot of resources that we've built out over the years. There's obviously the YPN networks at the local and the provincial, and then with the National Association, they've been providing resources to these networks to see them grow, to see them be able to offer more to the folks seeking out, not only mentorship but opportunities to network. Certainly, YPNs provide educational events, there's panels, there's speed mentorship dating, things like that are one-off events, but there's also often a forum where you can connect and find somebody who has self-identified as wanting to be a mentor and you can self-identify as wanting to be a mentee.

You can find the right person from this pool of people who are ready and willing. I think also depending on where you feel comfortable, but at your local association, getting in touch with the board, the staff can also help facilitate finding someone that might align with where you are and where you want to go. Our boards, our committees, they're full of people who have had successful careers and are now looking at giving back and they've proven that because they've dedicated time to the board and we can help you build those connections or at least connect initially, and then you can see where it goes from there.

Rachel: I think if you're within a brokerage that's able to provide that resource, then you're already in a good spot to start. I know within my brokerage, we actually have almost daily training sessions with what Nicole described as industry specialists. Somebody who is self-identified as being very strong in a certain subject and that already starts one good connection. Again, like Nicole mentioned, your local board, they can put you in touch. They'll know that this person sat on this panel and would probably be a good resource for you for a certain question.

I definitely think tapping into, on a small scale, your brokerage, and on a larger outside scale, tapping into your local network. If you're willing to take it higher than that, definitely into the provincial and national levels, you definitely have some great resources.

Erin: This idea of working together and lifting people up, that really does come through when we talk about mentorship in real estate. Now, Nicole, you've gained a lot of experience in your career first with CREA, then the London and the St. Thomas Association of REALTORS®, and now with the Ottawa Real Estate Board. How have mentors helped you along your journey?

Nicole: I was able to find mentors early in my career that have thankfully stuck with me to today and I still lean on them. They are still references that I've used to get those new positions, seek out those new opportunities. I think that I was able to find people early who saw something in me maybe I didn't even see in myself. They were the ones that initially put the challenges and opportunities in front of me. They gave me the push where I didn't have the confidence.

They said, "Let's try it out, see where you go, just give it a chance." Those are the people that I think really lean into the mentorship role in a way that you can see expand and help serve throughout the rest of your trajectory wherever you choose to go. When you're coming back and you're not sure what the next step is for you, maybe you're looking at jumping from one broker to another to seek new opportunities or moving into a new career, they're the ones that you can circle back to and say, "Hey, do any opportunities?" They're the ones that you can start speaking to identify what the next best thing could be or what the next step could be.

I've been very lucky to have those folks in my corner and those people have been able to stay with me through each one of those new chapters in my career.

Erin: I'd say they'd be lucky to have you in their corner too. How about you, Rachel? You have an impressive list of accolades under your belt, don't blush, being in the top 2% of agents in Canada with Royal LePage three years in a row. How has having a mentor as you began your career helped you to get to where you are today? Maybe even higher than you would have already gone. Who knows?

Rachel: Yes, definitely. I have to give a lot of credit to having the mentors along the way. I would say for myself, I'm the type of person who if a situation lands on my lap that I'm uncertain of, it will escalate very quickly in terms of stress levels. Having somebody that's a phone call away or that's a conversation away and a trusted resources has just been so significant. I would say that probably the biggest thing in terms of building your confidence is having a mentor that you trust on the other end of the phone just because every day you run into a new situation. You run into things you never thought would exist, but here you are, here's a situation.

Sometimes it's time-sensitive and there's a lot of money on the line and you really want to take care of your people, but there's certain circumstances where you just don't know what you don't know. Having somebody that you trust on the other end of the phone, be it small or big, could be a day-to-day task, just like it could be a major milestone moment in your career. Having those people around you is, I would say, everybody should try and have at least one mentor in their life, if not a few.

Erin: To be a mentee at the same time too. It seems like you can be both. It just seems to make sense because we never ever stop learning. Is that right, Nicole?

Nicole: That's right. Really, no matter what career you're in, whether you're on the real estate side, the association side, learning is a part of how you grow and how you thrive. This industry is evolving just so quickly as we can all attest to, whether it's on the technology side, the market, the market conditions. To stay up to speed and competitive in these times requires you to be tapping into those networks, learning, being a self-learner, identifying what you don't know, and then seeking it out where you can. I think it's a great trait to have. I think a lot of our mentors, my mentors anyway, they have that same value system, they have that same expectation.

They're learning as I'm learning and they're able to bestow down what they're synthesizing from what they're learning. That's a benefit to me and I can also provide that service going back up.

Erin: I'm curious about both your perspectives on this one, but I'm going to start with you, Rachel. What would you say are some important tips or considerations when it comes to real estate mentorship?

Rachel: I think a good mentee definitely carries a certain sense of accountability for themselves, knowing, again, like we spoke earlier, the metric of their success levels, knowing themselves well, how much work are you willing to put in, respect for their mentor, being open to new ideas. I think a lot of us have a certain direction we want to take it, but realizing that there's not just one way to reach one end result. Just being flexible in the type of information we're willing to receive and being open to different perspectives.

Nicole: I think Rachel hit the nail on the head. It's really just being honest with yourself. What do you want to get out of this? Then putting in the time and effort, listening, being attentive. It's okay to disagree with what somebody is telling you. You get to choose, it's your career, what you want to take and what you want to cast away, but making sure that if you're asking somebody for their time and we're all busy, we all have families, that you are willing to move forward and at least take what they're saying and put it into motion in some sense so that there is that return in value.

Erin: Are there things that you've encountered during your day and thought, "Oh, I went over this with my mentor"? Does that ever come back to you like that? Is it the gift that keeps giving? What do you think, Rachel?

Rachel: I would say probably my most significant lesson that I've learned from a mentor along the way, and it was probably my first week in real estate, and it was try and keep a paper trail of almost everything. You don't know when you're going to need it and it makes for a lot of emails, but when you do need it, you are going to be very happy it's there.

Nicole: It's your insurance of happy.

Rachel: Yes.

Erin: It's a virtual paper trail, right?

Rachel: Yes, exactly. That is something I've carried in my back pocket through the years and it saved me more than once. I would definitely say that that's probably the smallest one-liner that has carried me through my career.

Erin: That's fascinating. Anything like that pop to your mind, Nicole?

Nicole: Yes, I also have a one-liner. It's funny how the one-liners stick with you, but it's sometimes you have to move out to move up. Sometimes you've outgrown the role. What you're seeking next, you're going to have to leave what's comfortable, what you know to gain the breadth or depth of experience that you need to take that next step. For me, I was working at the Canadian Real Estate Association here and I wanted to make that leap to more of a leadership role, but I needed more depth in the housing space within the leadership space.

That's where I moved up, I moved out, and I was happy to come back to the real estate community bringing what I learned from these experiences and other places that then I can take and use it to better the industry we have here, the REALTOR® community, and my board at the Ottawa Real Estate Board.

Erin: Okay, those are two great one-liners, if you will. It all comes back to one main point, it seems, after this great conversation with you both, which is having a tight-knit community. Why do you both feel this is so crucial to a striving industry? We'll go back to you, Nicole.

Nicole: I think it's having a tight-knit group that can serve as your sounding board. It can provide you with the feedback you need, whether it's constructive or whether it's supportive. You need a little bit of both probably. Then that also allows you to build out a network. It starts with a small group, and then hopefully, it organically grows to their networks, to folks that they know, to people that they trust.

Because if you trust somebody within that close circle and they have a trusted relationship with someone and you need a lawyer, a mortgage broker, you need somebody with experience in this, that, and the other, a recommendation from someone in that tight-knit group, that's going to be held with so much more esteem. You build the small group, and then you expand the network, and hopefully, between those two things, you have the building blocks, the infrastructure for a really strong and successful career.

Erin: You, Rachel, why do you think that having a tight-knit community is just so important to a thriving industry?

Rachel: I think that confident, pleasant agents just make for confident, educated clients. At the end of the day, it's a collaborative industry. We're going to cross paths at one point or another. If that can be a positive experience, we're all going to be better for it. I think that the stronger the industry is as a whole, and that can be through transfer of knowledge and mentorship, the better we're all going to be for it. I don't think there's really anything we can lose.

Erin: Okay, so what's next? You're both enjoying thriving careers so far, but obviously, there's so much more to come for you both. What are you hoping to achieve? We'll start with you, Rachel.

Rachel: I'm pretty happy with my sales career. I really can't say anything about that, but the next challenge that I've given myself is stepping into more of a leadership role. Leadership, communication. I've looked towards people within the real estate industry and outside of the real estate industry to try and help me navigate these new waters and become more confident in the information that I can pass down and different structures. Yes, definitely the leadership side.

Erin: For you, Nicole, what's the future hold for you?

Nicole: Oh, that's a great question. I'm relatively new here at the Ottawa Real Estate Board, so I am getting settled. It's been about three months, but what I'm looking to do and what I know the board is hoping is that we can establish ourselves and grow the vision we have as being all things real estate in Ottawa. Serving the members, being a voice in the community on housing, real estate, making sure that people in Ottawa, citizens have a resource when it comes to their housing needs. That's something that I look forward to building and growing here at the Ottawa Real Estate Board.

Erin: Congratulations on your new position, by the way, and good luck to you. Good luck to you as well, Rachel. Let me just end with this question. If somebody watching or listening leaves with one thing about this conversation, Rachel, what do you hope it is?

Rachel: I think once you're really ready to put in the hard work and find the people that align well with you and everything else should fall into place.

Erin: Nicole?

Nicole: I would say successful people have a lineup of people behind them that help them get there. If you're looking to be successful, start building out that network so you have the folks behind you to help propel you all the way through.

Erin: Sounds great. We thank you both for your time and your experience and wish you both all the best in the future. Can't wait to see what's next. Thank you.

Nicole: Thank you.

Rachel: Thank you.

Erin: Thank you, again, Nicole and Rachel for that insightful and inspiring conversation. The benefits of real estate mentorship are clearly long lasting, and you never know when the connections you make will circle back around to help you in the future. Now, if you're wondering where to start, reach out to your local board or association to see if they have any programs on the go or they could point you in a direction that you may not have considered. Of course, if you liked this episode and we hope you did, please tell us by giving us a rating or review us on your preferred podcast platform. We always appreciate it.

REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association. Production is courtesy of Alphabet® Creative with tech support from Rob Whitehead. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm Erin Davis and we'll see you next time on REAL TIME.

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Exploration into turning REALTOR.ca into a for-profit subsidiary of CREA has included the most comprehensive due-diligence process undertaken in CREA history.. It’s about keeping REALTORS® at the forefront, looking at how this invaluable tool could be better leveraged to serve members, and addressing changing consumer needs. The proposed path forward is outlined in REALTOR.ca Forward: the draft business case for REALTOR.ca as a taxable entity.

Understandably, the discussion has sparked curiosity from members.

On this episode of REAL TIME, Janice Myers, CREA CEO, and James Mabey, CREA Chair, answer common questions regarding the draft business case and what the transformation could mean for REALTORS®.

Transcript

Erin Davis: Hi there. This isn't the first time that we have dedicated an episode to a discussion about REALTOR.ca and what's next for its future. Well, for today's conversation, we're doing something a little bit different. Before we look ahead, we're going to peel back the curtains a bit, and I guarantee you'll learn something about REALTOR.ca you didn't already know. I'm Erin Davis, and welcome to REAL TIME. For today's conversation, we're joined by CREA's CEO Janice Myers, and the chair of the 2024-25 CREA Board of Directors, James Mabey, who's also a broker owner from Edmonton, Alberta. Welcome both to REAL TIME.

James Mabey: Thanks so much for having us, Erin.

Janice Myers: Pleasure to be here.

Erin: Thank you. Now in Canada, if you're someone who has any interest in real estate, there's a very good chance that you have heard of REALTOR.ca. And we know that because of the market share. So how did REALTOR.ca come to be? And we'll start with you, James.

James: That's a great question, Erin, and something that we're very proud of at CREA. So historically, of course REALTOR.ca started as MLS.ca and that was way back in 1995 when a group of associations and boards came together to create a single source for listing information for consumers. And because it's a trusted source for Canadian consumers, it has become, of course, wildly popular and meets the needs of buyers and sellers, but also REALTOR® members across the country.

Janice: And I would add to that that, you know, the success has come from that initial collaboration of boards and associations, the community across Canada and and the strategic foresight that those people had to and REALTORS®, of course, had to create REALTOR.ca. And it is really, truly the envy of, of and a prime example of collaboration. It's the envy of the world. So we're very fortunate to have it.

Erin: You would ask a question that would kind of bring to light just what REALTOR.ca is. When you talk with new members. Janice, tell us about those sort of off the cuff but very insightful conversations.

Janice: Well, REALTOR.ca would come up in the context of talking about MLS, the MLS trademark, and what MLS systems are and when. I'd have a group of new REALTORS® just starting in the business, we'd talk about the three pillars of the MLS and what an MLS system is with respect to the data, etc. and then REALTOR.ca would come into the conversation and I'd say, well, so what is REALTOR.ca? It's not the MLS system. And then we talk through, oh yeah, it's the consumer portal. And everybody knew of REALTOR.ca. And when I would say to them that is your industry owned consumer portal. And every single board and association sends data to REALTOR.ca, which is managed by CREA. They would be very impressed.

Erin: I guess so, and it is obvious that this tool has resonated with Canadians. But did its success come as a surprise?

Janice: I guess in a way, I mean, I don't think that everybody thought that, you know, that collaboration, that initial collaboration was going to be so successful. But then the CREA team really worked hard to build it and maintain it and build it into the incredible market share that we have today. And that's really what we want to continue.

Erin: Yeah, anything but an overnight success. It is built and built and built. But what was the initial impact for REALTORS®? James.

James: Um, I think that's a really important thing because it gets at the heart of why we are re-examining REALTOR.ca. The initial impact of having a portal, a single portal for consumers to access MLS listing data was that it really helped members to make sure that their listings were front and center, and that they weren't competing for eyeballs. Even when I started in real estate 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. Almost part of me. I know I look fresh faced, but it's been almost 20 years. You know, you were competing for eyeballs. You were spending a lot of money on advertising to reach consumers in newspapers and print advertising. You know, that has largely gone by the wayside because of things like the internet. And consumers demand to be able to access all of the information in one place online. And that was really the secret sauce of MLS that became REALTOR.ca, and has really put downward pressure on the costs to our members to compete for those eyeballs and make sure that their listings are getting full exposure.

Erin: Yeah. For sure. I mean, $310 seems like a steal of a deal for exposure like that.

Janice: For sure. And not all of that $310 a year goes to supporting REALTOR.ca Approximately 43% of those dues go to support REALTOR.ca. But we are in an incredibly competitive environment when it comes to technology. Consumer expectations continue to shift and change, and we want to make sure that this primary asset continues to grow and innovate for members.

Erin: Yeah, yeah. There's no resting on your laurels at all because the internet has come such a long way since 2008. And has that changed? REALTOR.ca's mission or goals?

James: You know, Erin, it really hasn't changed the mission or goals because, you know, it was created again to create value for members. And that has never changed. But what has changed is how consumers' expectations have increased and the demands on the system have increased. And so, you know, REALTOR.ca has evolved over the years. You know, we have Android and Apple apps. We have the web based experience or desktop based experience. We've moved to a mapping search tool as opposed to drop down menus. So there's been incredible innovation to try and keep up with consumers' demands of the site. And of course, that is a very expensive process to go through. And every time we have to retool REALTOR.ca, we take that very seriously. And faced with what's coming now with artificial intelligence, I mean, that's going to reshape the way that consumers search the internet. And so, you know, with a finite resource like member dues fueling REALTOR.ca, that creates a bit of a problem for the Canadian Real Estate Association to make sure that the tool stays competitive and keeps that market share. That really allows our members to save money as they transact across the country.

Erin: Yeah. And of course, it bears mentioning that this is a not for profit environment, too, when you're talking about the costs of keeping up with everything and staying ahead of everything as you have.

Janice: And we and the team have done an incredible job, there's no doubt about it. But there's so much more, as James has said, that we can do. We need to build on what consumers are expecting in the portal world, some deeper insights into properties looking to provide more consumer insights. A better educated consumer will connect with a REALTOR®. And so these are the types of things that we're looking at that we need to continue to evolve the platform.

Erin: Yes. And it's not just popularity that has grown, but the market share from 25 to 48%. That is incredible. So how has that aligned with changing REALTOR® business needs as well?

James: You know, I think that the online lead world has evolved in quite a long way. So there's a fraction of transactions compared to the number of actual leads that are generated online. And more and more, our members are demanding transaction ready consumers. They're expecting warm leads, better leads. They don't want quantity. In fact, sometimes we struggle to make sure that consumers are getting the response that they desire from our sight and from our members, because the leads aren't seen as being as warm or as good. As for, say, a handshake and a referral from a past client or somebody that you know is in your sphere of influence. And so with that changing landscape, we really just want to make sure that the website is delivering for both consumers and for the members. And that takes constant innovation. And we know we're struggling a little bit with, for instance, younger demographics, people who are new to Canada, people who are just familiar with the REALTOR® brand and with REALTOR.ca specifically. And so it's really important that we continue to keep that up. Innovation will take us a good chunk of the way, but we also just have to make sure we're listening to people, consumers and members to make sure that the site is as good as it possibly can be.

Janice: REALTOR.ca really, really does exist to connect consumers with REALTORS®, and it's all about anticipating those needs and filling that gap so that those, as James pointed out, those sort of ready consumers are there to connect with REALTORS®.

Erin: The listening that you referred to just a moment ago is so important, especially when there's so much more noise in today's online landscape. So what does make REALTOR.ca unique?

Janice: Well, you know, the collaboration between boards and associations that fuels the power of REALTOR.ca to see it be successful. That is really, as James has said a few times, the secret sauce to REALTOR.ca's success. The fact that pretty much every single listing that is put onto an MLS system in Canada feeds up to REALTOR.ca. That does not exist anywhere else in the world. And we were. We are extremely fortunate. So you have that and your and the successful sort of initiatives that the CREA team has undertaken to support REALTOR.ca has led to this incredible market share and one that we want to maintain with some very well-funded competitors coming on the scene. We need to make sure that it remains the primary business asset for our REALTORS® in Canada.

James: And I think it's important to note as well, that REALTOR.ca is a REALTOR®-centric environment. So it's an environment that's designed to bring consumers together with REALTORS®. But again, it's meant to do so in a way that is really member-centric. And that's quite different from a lot of the competitors in the portal space that, you know, really make their money on the backs of agents. So we want to make sure that we remain true to that, that that's always central to the platform. And so I think that it's really important that the portal has really moved from a search-based tool to a research-based tool. And so what I mean by that is that the consumer journey starts a lot before they're actually ready to transact. And so REALTOR.ca is a lot of people's favourite pastime. It's where they explore real estate and shop for real estate. And so, you know, we want to make sure that that's a friendly environment. And so the depth of data is really important. Consumers expect more, you know, the breadth again we're covering the entire marketplace across the country, which Janice already mentioned is super unique. And we've also had an increased focus on making sure that we maintain transparency for consumers, because that also is part of what they are expecting these days. And I think that that's part of the REALTOR® brand as well, is making sure that there is transparency to consumers and that it's not just the deepest source of data, but it's the most trusted source of data.

Erin: And it would seem to reason that a better educated consumer will connect with a REALTOR®, but that can't come without a cost, right?

Janice: There's always more money to spend on all sorts of innovations that will help with that connection.

James: Yeah. You know, members are constantly looking for ways to, of course, prospect for business. And, you know, there's nothing that REALTOR® likes more than sitting at a kitchen table with a buyer or seller, helping them to, you know, make the largest investment of their lives and trying to chart a path forward. And REALTOR.ca has become a really important part of that conversation, whether it's your buyers or sellers, that you've got a place where they can really explore the market and also see that their listing is getting that full exposure. And you know that, again, it's about meeting consumer expectations. And that's a constantly moving target.

Erin: From year to year. I could appreciate that the source of funding could be both finite and fluctuating. Is that about right?

James: That's actually exactly right. It's entirely accurate. And we actually have just seen the first ever reduction in the number of members in the country. And so when we have all of our eggs in one basket, i.e. relying on member dues to fund REALTOR.ca and the Canadian Real Estate Association. That means that you start to have to prioritize things. You can't do all things you know that would allow the site to generate the leads that members are expecting to generate, the quality of leads members are expecting, and also to meet consumer expectations in an environment where, as you pointed out, there's a finite amount of resources. And so, you know, I've served on the technology committee, I've been on this board of directors for a number of years, and it's always a situation where you're trying to make sure that it has the appropriate resources, and it's a prioritization exercise, and we can only imagine. And I think it's important we do imagine what is possible in an environment where there isn't scarcity, you know, where we can really empower the team that's running REALTOR.ca in a new enterprise to move forward and to really not just deliver but exceed expectations.

Erin: And as you examine the impact of decision making for things like new features and priorities. Can you see any areas where we're falling short? Janice.

Janice: We've certainly done an excellent job of getting to the market share that we have, and it's really about maintaining and growing that market share for the benefit of our members. And you know, we, I mean, the research has shown that we're extremely trusted by a certain demographic my age. And the younger people aren't necessarily loyal to one portal over another. And so it is a challenge to continue to get the eyeballs on REALTOR.ca. And there's just so much more that we can do if we have more resources fueling REALTOR.ca.

Erin: Well, can't CREA allocate more funds to REALTOR.ca to help address these areas? Janice.

Janice: You know, there's only a certain amount that we can do with a finite amount of resources. And also, as James has pointed out, we've experienced our first decline in membership in quite some time. And so the balancing of priorities beyond REALTOR.ca, of course, CREA was created as an advocacy organization, and the successes that we've had in that area are really important, particularly in this time of a housing crisis in Canada. The reputation of REALTORS®, professionalism, those are all the things that CREA stands for as well as REALTOR.ca. So, you know, to answer your question directly, there would need to be much more. And this is what's in the business case, is a significant increase in dues to even maintain our status quo over the next few years. So the business case goes through that carefully. What would be the effect on membership dues to maintain the status quo and then what is possible, which is really exciting. If REALTOR.ca were put into a taxable entity and allowed to grow and thrive those revenues.

James: And I think it bears saying as well that the status quo option with a large member dues increase, but that wouldn't allow for the kind of innovation that we're talking about needing in order to be competitive in the marketplace. And so there is a big distinction there to be drawn as well between these two options, where one is essentially maintaining a platform, but probably seeing market share erode versus one where we are reinvesting in that platform and able to do so at scale.

Erin: So speaking of revenue generation, this is something that we've talked about in previous episodes. The case for REALTOR.ca as a taxable entity. And you just released REALTOR.ca Forward – the draft business case. So what is the purpose of the report? Janice, you go first.

Janice: Well, there's the main purpose of the report, which is a business case that lays out two scenarios. One is staying the same and what we call the status quo, and the other is moving forward. And that's what REALTOR.ca Forward is all about. So it signals a lot of careful due diligence by a member driven REALTOR.ca task force, along with the CREA board and experts like PricewaterhouseCoopers. And this is the most comprehensive due diligence process that CREA has ever undertaken in its history to make sure that this is a viable future for REALTOR.ca. So the idea is to look at whether this is a viable opportunity, which the business case clearly points out that it is. And the goal of the report is to prepare an alternative to help reduce the pressure on those member dues and continue to have REALTOR.ca thrive and provide that value back to members.

James: I'm really proud of the work that went into producing this business case. You know, we had so many volunteers involved, and as Janice pointed out, a lot of excellent outside consultations. But, you know, the thing I want to remind our members of, the members who haven't been involved in these discussions, is that we recognize that REALTOR.ca is probably the premier asset of Canadian REALTORS®, and we take it very seriously. You know what we're doing here. It's so important that we get this right. And so, you know, we've been engaging with our boards and associations as well as the members on the street to make sure that they have a say and an opportunity to chime in before we present a final business case to the boards and associations, to the voting delegates at a special general meeting.

Erin: So paint us all a picture, would you? Why the need for a taxable entity? James, I'll hand it back to you for this one first.

James: This is a really important point. So we've had a lot of advice, obviously, from outside counsel, from tax counsel, that there is significant risk to the Canadian Real Estate Association by pursuing different types of revenue. So it's the source and type of revenue that really generates risk to our not-for-profit tax status. And so it's not about whether this new entity is profitable or not. It's actually about the revenues that are generated that create this risk. And so that's why, you know, the vehicle that's being proposed here is a taxable entity. And that's really to mitigate that risk for the Canadian Real Estate Association going forward.

Janice: Yeah. And I would just add that when people hear taxable or for profit, which has sometimes been used, people think that there's going to be money made and what's going to happen with that money? And one of the most important key principles of this is that any excess revenue in any given year is reinvested back into the platform that's actually baked into all the proposed governance documents. So the revenue reinvestment is key. And the fact that it would be a wholly owned subsidiary of CREA and REALTORS® would continue to own REALTORS.ca through their membership in CREA. So it's a wholly owned taxable subsidiary, revenue reinvestment back into the platform. And then the third thing is governance excellence, in which it would have its own board of directors. And that would be the third component. And these were all agreed to by boards and associations before we even went down the road of developing a business case.

Erin: Will CREA membership dues decrease as a result? Janice?

Janice: Well, the business case lays out in the second scenario, it lays out a transition period of about ten years where revenues would ramp up. And the business case examines five key revenue streams And during the time over that ten years, the the percentage of dues that go to support REALTOR.ca would decline from about 43% down to 25%. And so it's not that that would be a dues reduction, but that that portion of that $310 per year would come back or stay with CREA proper to grow the advocacy and the professionalism and the reputation pillars of what CREA is. It's important that CREA continue on behalf of members.

Erin: I'll let either of you answer this as you see fit, but can you walk us through the five key revenue streams? Would you do that?

James: Yeah, absolutely. So I think that members are always keen to know exactly how we would generate these revenues. And so it's important to note that we actually examined about 30 different revenue opportunities. And they were prioritized based on a set of guiding principles. But the five that were shortlisted by a subcommittee of the REALTOR.ca Task Force were advertising revenue from non listing pages, expanding the pricing and the opportunities through the Data Distribution Facility, or the DDF, which members would be familiar with. We also have an opportunity to create a tools marketplace, so we've vetted apps and vendors that our members are already buying services from, and created an environment where that would be available through REALTOR.ca so that members can access those services, which would create some margin dollars for CREA. We already have a really valuable tool called the Insights Report, that members would also be familiar with and the insights that are gathered through REALTOR.ca. And this isn't from the actual data that we use to power REALTOR.ca, but rather the way that people are actually using the tool to search through properties and the trends and patterns that evolve through that. There is an opportunity to create a product for those kinds of data insights for non-REALTOR® members. And last but certainly not least, is the opportunity for us to generate leads for third-party service providers like mortgage and insurance. So those are the five that have been identified in the business case, and there's more depth on each one of those in the business case. So I definitely recommend REALTORS® review that report, which is of course available through our member portal.

Erin: All right. Great recommendation. Thank you. And we kept track. You did all five. Thank you James. So the broader question is what's in it for REALTORS®? Janice.

Janice: You've hit the nail on the head. What is it in it for REALTORS®? Well, some of the things that we've touched on are the ability to have a better educated consumer, we could improve the leads just in terms of the quality of the leads. And we know that this is of great importance to REALTORS®, having that significant marketplace that consumers will continue to trust and go to actually elevates the brand of REALTORS® as well. So I would say there's a lot of things overall that's in it for REALTORS® to maintain REALTORS® market position and to continue to innovate the platform.

James: As a member myself, you know, I'm really looking forward to three things. One, that I continue to get absolutely amazing value for my membership dues, because of course, we'll have a diversity of revenue streams that will help to maintain the funding of REALTORS® without compromising what I'm also getting for the rest of my career products and services. We also have that ability to make sure that I've still got exposure for my listings. So, maintaining that market share so that I don't have to invest in other platforms or tools to reach consumers with the listing content that I want to push through from my MLS system, and also a better user experience for both REALTORS® and consumers and so I know that REALTORS® across this country will understand when I say this. When you receive a lead through REALTOR.ca currently and it just says, “I'd like more information about this listing”, and you know that all the person had to do was click a button to get that to pop up and come into your inbox. You don't treat the lead as valuable as it needs to be treated. And so, you know, things like the ability to customize a lead form, things that will, again, be small tweaks that require investment and retooling those things will become possible. And so even more of the feedback we receive from consumers, but also from REALTORS®, will be able to be implemented into a tool that really delivers on my expectations as a member.

Erin: With REALTOR.ca becoming its own entity, does that change how CREA will operate or what its mission will be? James.

James: No, Erin, it doesn't. So the Canadian Real Estate Association has always existed to make sure that members are well served from coast to coast to coast. And our 160,000 REALTORS® across this country really depend on us for much more than REALTOR.ca. So that's only a part of our third strategic pillar, which is REALTOR® and consumer technology, which encompasses a few other things as well. But there's also two other really important functions that CREA performs. And Janice had alluded to them earlier. One is advocating with the federal government. So CREA is in a unique position, of course, to make sure that the housing file during a housing crisis is absolutely actioned by the government in a way that is beneficial to consumers and to REALTORS® and of course, upholding the REALTOR® reputation. When I put my REALTOR® pin on every morning, you know, it's important to remember that that means something because the Canadian Real Estate Association enforces the REALTOR® code, and that we have members that are subscribing to that high level of professionalism. So there's so much more that CREA does. And I would additionally point out that just because REALTOR.ca would be spun out into this taxable entity doesn't mean that CREA still wouldn't provide that oversight of REALTOR.ca on an ongoing basis, which is still a really important function.

Janice: Absolutely. Yeah. We want to make sure that REALTOR.ca continues to meet the needs of both members and consumers. It's a balancing act, and I would say that our work in advocacy is even more important in this environment. We believe everyone deserves a place to call home and that it offers dignity and belonging. And there's a lot of work along the entire housing continuum to make sure that that happens.

Erin: I know that we've only scratched the surface here today, but if we could, let's fast forward a year from now, what would you hope to be saying to REALTORS® if we were to do a follow up episode? Janice.

Janice: Wow, that's a really great question. I would hope to be saying, look at the growth that REALTOR.ca has undertaken for your benefit and look at the increased market share. I would love to see even more market share. And I would love for us to see action on the housing file at all levels of government. We know that we can't solve the housing crisis in silos. We need to collaborate with all levels of government. So those are the main things, and I would hope that we all continue to be extremely proud. As James pointed out, about the step that we have taken to ensure that REALTORS® primary business asset remains the top of mind for consumers and that we protect it on behalf of members.

Erin: Am I missing anything here? Because to me, it seems there's just no downside for REALTORS®. Only two upsides. James.

James: I agree with you, Erin. I think that there's only upside for REALTOR® members. And, you know, one of the things that the task force and the board have been really careful about is making sure that we're really conservative with our projections. So in a year's time, I would love to be able to tell members that it has actually outperformed our conservative numbers that we've used to sort of make the business case, and that there's even a higher degree of reinvestment back into REALTOR.ca. And I'd love to just talk to members here and say, aren't you thrilled with the way that this site is now delivering for you? And what else do you want us to do with it? Because at that point, we'll have the capacity to really be able to make sure that it is as good as our members deserve.

Janice: It's a pretty exciting time. It's an exciting time, Erin. It really is. Mhm.

Erin: And if REALTORS® are listening to and watching this, only take one thing away from this conversation today, what do you hope it is? We'll start with you, Janice.

Janice: That CREA is going to innovate on your behalf and make sure that you, your primary business asset, is protected and maintained and and grows.

James: I hope we've piqued people's interest. And what I'd really like for them to do is to actually go through the business case and engage with their elected leaders at their local board or associations, so that those folks feel empowered to come to Ottawa, potentially later this year and really dig into the conversation, have a great outcome and allow us to move forward.

Erin: Thank you. Thank you to you both for making the time to join us on REAL TIME and enlightening us even more about what REALTOR.ca is, and the value that it delivers to our REALTOR®, viewers and listeners. We so appreciate it and best of luck to you both.

Janice: Thank you.

James: Thank you Erin.

Erin: See, I told you you'd learn something. This conversation with Janice and James certainly shed light on the future of REALTOR.ca, especially regarding the REALTOR.ca Forward report. Value remains at the forefront of REALTOR.ca mission, making sure REALTORS® and consumers have the best experience possible. I'm so glad we got to learn more about how that value will continue for years to come. And of course, if you liked this episode, please tell us by giving us a rating or a review on your preferred podcast platform. We always appreciate it. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA. Production is courtesy of Alphabet® Creative with tech support from Rob Whitehead. Thank you so much for listening and watching. I'm Erin Davis. And we'll see you next time on REAL TIME.

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It’s no secret that Canada is facing a housing crisis. The country is in need of programs and strategies to help build more homes that meet people where they are. It’s a national issue that requires collaboration from all leaders, politically and otherwise.

The Honourable Sean Fraser, Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities, is our guest on this episode of REAL TIME, where we discuss Canada’s housing supply goals, where we can draw inspiration from, and how REALTORS® can be part of solutions.

Transcript

Erin Davis: Canada is in a housing crisis. The country is in need of programs and actions to help build more homes that meet people where they are. It's a national issue that requires collaboration from all leaders, politically and otherwise, to help ensure everyone has a home.

Hi, I'm Erin Davis, and this is REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS®, brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association. Today, we are joined by the Honorable Sean Fraser, Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities, to talk about Canada's housing supply goals, the challenges we are facing to make them a reality, and how REALTORS® can be part of the solution. Minister Fraser, thank you for being here today.

Minister Sean Fraser: Thanks so much for the opportunity to connect. Looking forward to it.

Erin: The natural place to start is the state of the housing crisis in Canada. 5.8 million homes are needed to be built by 2030 to help restore affordability and address supply. What is currently in place to help with the development and affordability of housing in Canada, both now and in the shorter term?

Minister Fraser: Look, thanks very much for the question. Depending on who you ask, you're going to get a range of different estimates on exactly what it's going to take to cure the supply gap. The one thing I think everybody agrees on is we need to build more homes. The housing plan that we've put out just in April of this year seeks to do that in three keyways. The first is to reduce the cost of building homes. The second is to make it easier to build homes. The third is to adopt new strategies when it comes to the way that we actually build them. Let's dig in a little bit on what that means.

To reduce the cost, what we've tried to do is look in our own backyard to figure out what we can do as a federal government to directly reduce the cost of housing.

We have removed the GST from new apartment construction and changed capital cost allowances to reduce taxes on home builders, and we're starting to see that have an impact.

We also create low-cost financing programs, such as the Apartment Construction Loan Program, or something new that's coming up to build accessory dwelling units to get more supply into the market, which is particularly helpful during a high-interest rate environment.

We've got a big project on the go that we'll have more to say about, I think, in this conversation, including the use of public lands to build more homes.

In addition, we need to incentivize solutions at other levels of government, including zoning and permitting reforms, and, of course, embracing new technologies when it comes to building houses more quickly, such as factory-built homes. There's no silver bullet. If it were easy to solve, smarter people than me would have decades before. The reality is there's a number of levers at our disposal that can help build out that supply, which is essential if we're going to cure the supply gap and ultimately resolve a reasonable level of affordability in the housing market in Canada.

Erin: The existing programs are certainly a great step forward, but we also need to acknowledge that the reality is hitting those housing supply goals is a difficult task. We've heard some rhetoric around development cost charges. Minister, can you fill us in on how or if those are affecting our ability to not only build homes, but build affordable homes?

Minister Fraser: Certainly. I've got a particular perspective on development cost charges. For those who may not be familiar with the issue, it's a tool that municipalities use to raise revenue. In my view, it's one that does so fairly inefficiently because it raises all the revenue on new housing. When you increase the cost of something, you tend to get less of it or you get some of it with a higher price point.

From my perspective, it risks both impacting the housing output goals that we've set as a government and the housing affordability goals, because developers, despite the fact I believe most of them are in it for the right reasons, want to help provide solutions, they're also running businesses. We can't expect that businesses who incur larger costs simply to eat all of those costs. Now, to a degree, community versus community, it may happen in some and not in others. What we're trying to do is to understand, why are municipalities feeling the need to increase development cost charges? I don't believe it's because any community wants to increase the cost of housing. It's because municipalities are cash-strapped. We need to deal with the very real challenges that cities are facing in this country when it comes to now dealing with the costs of certain services that traditionally may have fallen within, particularly at the provincial level of government, including community housing, including dealing with homelessness in their communities.

When you have municipalities incur these increased costs and they have limited access to revenue tools, they go in the areas where they think they have some political space to play.

The solution is going to be to increasing, from other orders of government, the level of investment in infrastructure that currently development cost charges are being used to build out. We've put $6 billion on the table for housing-enabling infrastructure. In order to access it, we said, "You have to freeze your development cost charges."

For those who don't wish to abide by those terms, we have created a new product through the Canada Infrastructure Bank that will provide lower-cost financing to build out that infrastructure, but we want to ensure that if you're going to be using federal dollars to build out municipal infrastructure, you're not simultaneously increasing the cost to housing in your community.

Development cost charges are one of the hurdles we need to overcome. We're seeking to do that by tying access to federal infrastructure money to policies around freezing the cost of development cost charges when that policy was released in April of this year.

Erin: What are some of the frustrations that you're feeling in regards to hitting the housing supply target?

Minister Fraser: There's no shortage of things to become frustrated about, but I try to focus on the opportunities that we have to make a difference. That said, there are certain potential obstacles that we're going to need to overcome, that the impact of our policies remains to be seen. Now we're starting to see very good output when it comes to building permits, for example. We have seen some encouraging numbers when it comes to the latest data from CMHC on housing starts in the month of May of this year. If I look forward two, three years, and I ask myself what bottlenecks are we potentially going to hit if we can't resolve them today, the productive capacity of the Canadian economy is one of the very serious obstacles I think we're going to need to overcome.

We're producing homes close to the record level of production, but when I talk to builders in different markets in Canada, some are already experiencing a labor shortage that's preventing them from growing their home-building capacity. We also see an opportunity to overcome this not just by training the next generation of Canadian workers, but by incentivizing new construction methodologies that pull from a different labor pool, specifically modular housing, penalization, mass timber, potentially even 3D printing, that don't necessarily rely on the same pool of skilled tradespeople that traditional home builders may. By bringing in new solutions, we can overcome that obstacle.

The other piece that is a big question mark is the involvement of other levels of government. I think the federal government can say sincerely, "We've put our hand up and want to play a leadership role, but we need others to join the fight."

Province to province, the ambition and appetite for change varies significantly. We can't do this alone. We'll need provincial governments and municipalities pulling in the same direction.

The third and final, potentially the most important bottleneck, is capital. Making sure we're creating an opportunity for money to come into the housing sector by creating a set of circumstances that makes it more appealing to invest in Canadian home building than it does for investors who may be targeting industries in different parts of the world.

Crowding in that private capital, working with provinces, and growing the productive capacity of the Canadian home-building workforce are the three big things that I believe will pose a bottleneck if we don't sort out the policy solutions today that will reveal themselves over the next few years.

Erin: Minister, you used the term "legalize housing" last fall and it left some people curious. What did you mean by legalize housing?

Minister Fraser: This is not a concept that I've invented. This is something that becomes readily apparent to you when you start to engage in the obstacles to getting more homes built today. Thankfully, we've legalized a lot more housing than was the case even six, eight months ago.

What I meant when I used the phrase legalized housing was simply to point out that most kinds of houses are not legal to build as of right in most communities in Canada or in most neighborhoods in Canada. There's a lot of restrictions on what you can build and where you can build it. For example, a lot of suburban neighborhoods, frankly, a lot of neighborhoods altogether make it impossible to build a small apartment if you don't go and get a zoning change or a special exemption at your local council. That process can add months, sometimes years to the process of just getting an answer saying, "Yes, you are allowed to build the thing."

By the time you actually get permission to build it, when you have that lengthy process of getting an approval, the math that justified your investment in the first place may no longer take hold. We've seen this in a significant number of communities across Canada as we've dealt with a challenging interest rate environment over the past few years. A lot of projects that were approved after they got that special permission from council are now dealing with a higher rate of interest than they baked into their pro forma when they were deciding to go forward with the project or not.

When we can actually change the rules so a developer, a small builder, whoever it may be understands that they can build something without having to go through that lengthy process, that kind of housing will have been legalized in communities. When you make something illegal, guess what happens? You get a lot less of it. We should be making it easy for people to contribute solutions to the housing crisis. My own view is that if someone has land and is willing to make an investment, we should not forbid a person from advancing a solution on their own property when we're in a housing crisis. If we legalize housing by changing the rules to permit home building during a housing crisis, we're going to see more houses, and that makes sense to me.

Erin: I'm glad you mentioned land because land availability is often a key talking point when discussing housing supply, something that came up in episode 51 here when we were talking about Alberta. Can you speak to how government land could be used to address the supply crisis, Minister?

Minister Fraser: One of the things that you've got to realize, and we led off with this, it's become very expensive to build homes in this country. The cost of land, labor, material, supplies, interest, it's all gone up in the last few years and we have to look at what tools we have that can bring the cost of building down.

I'm never going to say that the home-building sector should reduce wages of workers in the home-building sector. In fact, I think if we paid people fairly, we'd see even more come into the industry in different parts of the country.

That said, land is something that we actually can potentially control the price of to some degree when we're dealing with land that the federal government owns, or the different levels of government own. If we can reduce from the input cost of construction the price of the land on which a building will sit, the cost of building is going to go down and the opportunity for developers to pass on those savings to residents when we get supply and demand balanced out will become much easier.

One of the things that we're doing that's a unique approach compared to the historical practice of previous federal governments is embracing a new strategy to make land available for housing. Rather than selling off land to the highest bidder, which will not provide a level of affordability necessarily to the homes that are built upon that land, we're going to enter into long-term leases for those who will commit to certain affordability goals when it comes to the housing that will actually be built on that land.

In exchange for those affordability outcomes, we'll be able to negotiate significantly reduced cost, potentially even for as low as a dollar, for a long-term lease on the land that will last at least the life cycle of the asset or the building that's constructed.

When we make that land available, we can remove one of the most expensive contributing factors to the overall cost of home building. If we bring that cost of building down as we grow the supply of housing in this country, we can potentially be dealing with rents or home prices that are much closer to what a middle-class worker in a given community can afford as compared to what would happen in the free market on private land or on government land that is sold at market prices.

This is an enormous opportunity. As the largest landowner in the country, the federal government has a role to play. The path that we're charting and that will be revealed over the next few months, I believe, will have an enormous impact on the housing supply crisis facing the communities in every part of Canada today.

Erin: Part of CREA's advocacy efforts, as recommended by REALTORS®, has to do with growing the skilled labor force. You talked about labor there just a moment ago to help build the supply that we're missing. What does this look like, Minister Fraser? I know you spoke about this at a CREA conference last fall, but would you refresh our memories please?

Minister Fraser: Certainly. I've identified the capacity of the Canadian home-building labor force to produce homes as one of the potential bottlenecks that we're going to hit. Even if we have a perfect municipal zoning policy in place, perfect financial policies in place, there is a limit to how many homes the Canadian economy can produce today, and we want to grow the outer boundary of that limit.

There's three key areas where I think we can do this. One is by increasing the investment in training for skilled workers. We need people who have the trade and the qualification to practice that will actually be able to increase the pace of construction for existing home builders, including traditional home builders who simply need more people to grow their business.

By investing in training, we can significantly increase the capacity of the workforce over time, including by tapping into traditionally underrepresented groups in the skilled trades. Thinking about investing in programs that will bring more women into the trades, thinking about programs that will bring more racial minorities and indigenous peoples into the Canadian home-building trades, and just generally increasing the overall pool of labor supply by investing in training more broadly.

We also need to embrace targeted immigration programs that will ensure that we both align the housing output with our overall immigration numbers, but simultaneously use those immigration programs in a targeted way to bring in more skilled trades people who have the capacity to help contribute a solution to the housing crisis.

The third thing is not necessarily about growing that same pool, it's about embracing new technologies. By creating incentives to scale up home-building factories, and by incentivizing the purchase of a piece of equipment that will allow one to build more efficiently, we can significantly increase output and build homes faster by comparison, in most instances, to traditional home-building strategies.

The other advantage, in addition to just becoming more productive through the embrace of technology and the use of equipment, is the fact that you're not necessarily competing in the same labor pool. The skill set to build homes that are built in a factory and assembled on site are not perfectly aligned with conventional home-building strategies. By tapping into a pool of labor that may not come from that same skilled background, at the same time we train more skilled tradespeople in this country, we're going to be able to build that overall capacity to produce homes, which will be key if we're going to hit those supply targets.

Erin: Where does the education begin then? Are we talking like getting students coming out of high schools and going into skilled labor? You talk about the immigration adding to that workforce. How far back do we have to go and start planning for this increase in skilled labor?

Minister Fraser: There's things that we can do in the short term, for example, by embracing some targeted immigration programs. We made a change over the course of the last few years to have a category-based selection model within the express entry system that targets five key areas, one of which is the skilled trades. We've seen a fairly significant increase in the number of skilled tradespeople who've come in as a result. That can have an impact within the first year of a policy change. Not necessarily enough to solve Canada's housing crisis in one fell swoop, but enough to make a difference.

There are other things that will take, admittedly, a little bit longer to reach maturity. When you enter into training, for example, you might have a cohort of people who starts their training tomorrow, but they may take a couple of years before they get that designation. That means we must do it, but we have to be patient for some solutions to reach maturity as compared to others.

When you ask how far back do we need to go, when I talk to a lot of my friends who work in the skilled trades, though they may have only started their formal training after they finished high school, very often they grew up on a construction site working informally alongside a family business. They've been turning wrenches in garages their whole life, growing up working on bikes. That's the kind of community that I came from. You see that implementing a culture change in addition to the formal training initiatives that incentivizes and demonstrates respect towards people who have those essential skills in the trades is something that can help shift the proportion of people in a country who work in a given sector over time.

Again, by investing in home-building factories and incentivizing changes with more productive equipment or processes, we can very quickly scale up new players in the sector. There's employers I talked to who are recruiting from a broad range of industries, but not targeting people with any particular skill set, but who are willing to put in an honest day of work. They actually find training old habits out of certain skilled trades can be more challenging than having somebody start fresh who doesn't come with a particular formal skill but has a willingness to work. There's many solutions that we have to embrace, and we do have to embrace them all simultaneously.

Erin: Housing supply issues won't be solved by one person or party alone. We're realistic. We know that. It's a national issue that requires leaders, and not just political leaders, to work towards a meaningful solution together. Minister, who needs to be involved in the housing conversation outside of political leaders? Are we talking like CREA, Cooperative Housing Federation of Canada, for example, developers? Who would you like to see at the table as we build a house around that table?

Minister Fraser: Look, it's an excellent question. One of the things I've learned that I believe more than just about anything else in nine years in politics now is that decisions are not going to be made effectively if they're made behind closed doors on Parliament Hill. They need to be made in full engagement with the people and organizations who are going to be contributing solutions and to be informed by the people who need those solutions.

When you ask who should be involved, private developers and home builders should be involved. Non-profit organizations who understand the needs of specific communities can be involved. People with lived experience should be involved. Advocacy associations who understand the perspective not just of the executive director but of an entire membership of an industry need to be involved.

Groups like CREA would provide an excellent example of the opportunity to engage an entire industry in a more effective and efficient way by sending representatives into these conversations. There are academic experts who've been studying their lives to understand the solutions to some of the challenges we're facing today. Let's borrow from all of the knowledge base that the different players in the sector have to contribute. I want to point out that it's not just for formal organizations to contribute solutions. I've had the opportunity to stream a number of different local council meetings when they were debating the measures baked into their Housing Accelerator Fund agreements with the federal government and I was blown away by the perspective, particularly of young people, who were showing up at council meetings, explaining to their local councillors what these policy changes could mean for them if it would create an opportunity for them to live in the community where they grew up.

Ordinary citizens have an opportunity to advocate to their local councils, to send letters to their MPs, to their MLAs, to raise awareness as part of the need to embrace new solutions to contribute to a better housing sector a few years from now than we have today. It's not just to be left to those who have an opportunity to build massive apartments. Individual citizens can contribute solutions in this process at a local and national level as well.

Erin: Yes. I love that you mention councils because we'd like you to talk about the importance of working with cities to help create affordable housing solutions, Minister.

Minister Fraser: This is where the rubber hits the road. In a lot of communities across Canada, the success or failure of housing initiatives will be determined by a willingness of the local level of government to embrace solutions or to sometimes bow to pressure to avoid the reforms that we know will have a positive impact. I've seen extraordinary leadership at cities across the country.

Though I've been in the news a couple of times for having a disagreement with a municipal government here or there, I found over the course of the past 11 months that I've been in this position that there's an awful lot of cities who want to be incredible partners out there. I'm yet to meet a single one who doesn't want to build more homes for members in their community who are underserved when it comes to housing. Some are willing to go the extra mile.

I think about mayors like Cam Guthrie, who is advocating for ambitious reforms. I think about Berry Vrbanovic in Kitchener or Dorothy McCabe in Waterloo who are implementing these kinds of reforms that are transitioning vast employment lands into residential lands, who are embracing new zoning practices.

The City of Kelowna, who has been ahead of the curve, not only in zoning for four units as of right, which has seen an uptick in the construction of fourplexes, but also in using AI in order to identify faster processes for issuing building permits.

There are incredible leaders and if we understand the best practices from the cities who are experiencing success, we can share those lessons with other levels of government and in fact put financial incentives on the table through a program like the Housing Accelerator Fund, which has led to what is likely the largest upzoning in Canadian history over the course of the past year.

Some of these changes are not just going to have an impact in the short term, as the money we put on the table is used to support more housing growth, but in perpetuity as the systemic reforms that make it easier and faster to build homes and get permits take hold and create a new culture of home building in the cities that have made those important changes. We have to work with cities.

Thankfully there are many good partners across the country who share the desired outcome and are willing to make some of the changes to turn that desire into a reality.

Erin: Looking outside of Canada for a minute, Minister, we've seen countries and areas that have implemented programs or policies that have helped address similar supply and affordability issues. Is there anywhere that we can draw inspiration from to help within our own borders?

Minister Fraser: Certainly. Look, there's no shortage. Some of the work that's been done around building design which is able to withstand very serious safety threats, but nevertheless embrace a single-stair egress, creates opportunities for more efficient, effective building designs that will allow you to fit more home into each building, if that makes sense.

It's not limited to any one country. I think about the work that has gone on in Finland when it comes to more or less eliminating chronic homelessness by adopting a housing-first approach. I think about zoning reform in Auckland, New Zealand, Minneapolis or Austin, Texas, that has led to an explosion of multi-unit residential growth. Factory-built homes have become more or less the norm in countries like Sweden.

I had the opportunity to spend a year studying a master's degree in the Netherlands. Though I didn't live in the biggest city in the country, I nevertheless benefited from a serious public transit system where I was able to walk or take my bike to classes every day that was just as efficient as driving through the city.

There's incredible lessons we can pull internationally from zoning reform, from investments in non-market housing, to modernizing the home-building industry, to investing to solve homelessness. There are so many examples to pull from and I think about the successes and failures that others have experienced as we sit down to develop our own policy track.

Erin: Many people think that building homes is strictly about single-family homes, which are important, too, of course, but there are many other types of housing that could address Canada's supply crisis, right?

CREA's asks in its pre-budget submission are all related to supporting the entire housing continuum, including the stimulation of prefabricated housing.

Can you talk a bit, please, about how modular and prefabricated homes could be part of the solution, like automation as well as 3D printing, all helping Canada to reach its housing supply goals?

Minister Fraser: We need every kind of housing manufacturer to be building more housing, whether that's traditional contractors doing stick-built homes, whether it's modular housing, whether it's panelization, mass timber. We did mention 3D printing. It's got a lot of ways to go before the sectors mature and can be counted on for the kind of volume that we need, but we need to embrace all of it.

I think the advantage right now, though on a cost basis, depending on the building design, you can be competitive. You don't see enormous savings when it comes to manufactured homes. Some kinds of designs could even be a little more expensive, but for multi-unit residential, depending on the scale of the building, you can be cost competitive, but you can build sometimes twice as fast. When you have an opportunity to build more quickly, time can be money based on the terms of financing or the interest rate environment you may be dealing with. You have an opportunity to create a solution much more quickly, and though the cost of building may only be on par, it can help address some imbalances between supply and demand in the market more quickly.

There's a few things we're doing to incentivize more use of manufactured homes in this country. The first is directly incentivizing the uptick of new technology or processes with a hundred million dollars in contribution through both one of our supercluster initiatives and through the regional development agencies in Canada who understand the more localized opportunities to scale those factories.

When I actually talk to those in the sector, they tell me though incentives are appreciated, what they need even more is orders. If they're going to justify a factory expansion, they needed to know there's a pipeline of projects that will justify a bigger facility, the new piece of equipment, staffing up, whatever it may be. We're trying to do that in two key ways. One is to carve out a $500 million tranche of the apartment construction loan program just for homes that are built in factories.

The second is to use our public lands initiative, and this is still under development now, to create greater opportunities for manufactured homes by figuring out how we can commit to a certain scale of factory-built homes when it comes to the public lands initiative to incentivize growth in the sector at the same time we get that housing output.

There's a number of different opportunities that I see, but these tools that we put on the table as part of the National Housing Plan, I expect, are going to have a significant impact.

Erin: We can hope, and hope is what this is all about. Why should Canadians be hopeful moving forward in regards to housing supply and affordability, Minister, when this is clearly a daunting problem to solve? Are you hopeful?

Minister Fraser: I am, and it's not out of a sense of blind optimism. I'm hopeful because I'm actually seeing solutions implemented at a local level that I believe can be scaled up and replicated at a national level.

When I see the extraordinary uptake of the Housing Accelerator Fund, for example, in six months we've reached deals with 179 partners across the country. Following it, we've seen remarkable upzoning of cities across the country. In April, the most recent month for which I've seen the data, we set a record for the issuance of building permits in this country. We didn't do that by snapping our fingers and creating a new tool altogether. We borrowed from the best practices that were already being implemented in cities right across the country, and created an incentive for everyone else to implement those practices as well, and we're seeing change. When we removed the tax from new purpose-built rentals in this country, we saw a number of provinces join forces with us, and then most of those provinces have seen a positive impact when it comes to starts this year as compared to last year.

In my own home province of Nova Scotia, where we've removed the tax on both the federal and provincial tax on new apartment construction, we've actually seen growth this year compared to last of more than 100%. It's remarkable what we're seeing in certain provinces, but this is not to say the job is done. We have a long way to go, but we are starting to see the early signs of success of some of the measures we're putting in place.

The reason that I'm optimistic that we can continue to see these measures taken up is I've never seen such alignment across party lines, across levels of government, in the desire to solve a problem like we currently see with the housing crisis.

We've seen the federal government put out what has been billed as the most ambitious plan in half a century to build homes in this country. Provinces seem more than live to the issue and are implementing a lot of measures on their own. Cities are waking up not just to the need to build more homes, but the opportunities for their communities if they can accommodate the people who want to move in and call those city homes and contribute their talents to the local economy and local community.

The political will is there across levels of government, across party lines. We're starting to see signs of success, and we're even seeing the latest rate cut from the Bank of Canada demonstrate not that we are where we need to be, but that we're trending in a positive direction.

I'm filled with a sense of hope and optimism. The scale of the task before me is not lost on me, but I do understand what can be done when you have three levels of government working together, and I think we've got that in every region of the country.

Erin: Okay. How can we use those wins to continue the momentum?

Minister Fraser: Success begets success. What has been incredible to me is, again, pointing to the experience of the Housing Accelerator Fund, though there were some challenges with some of the measures we were inviting cities to adopt in the outset, nothing created more momentum than a neighbouring city adopting those changes first.

When we were able to stand up and announce that City X was going to receive several million dollars to make certain kinds of changes, City Y next door decided they wanted to do the same. Then City Z took similar measures, and we saw that the competition actually became not just a competition for the federal money that was on the table, but making sure that they weren't to be outdone by their neighbours, knowing that that would actually potentially pull people from one community to another based on housing availability.

When we demonstrate that certain measures work and can be done within the political context of a given community, it creates a level of courage and ambition at a local level, I find, right across Canada, to say we can solve this problem.

My sense is the political temperature has reached a stage where leaders will ignore the housing crisis at their peril. There are solutions that are being made evident in communities across the country, not by the most rigorous or recent study that's been performed on them, but by the policies that are being implemented that were informed by those studies 10 and 20 years ago that are having an impact today.

We can continue to increase the level of ambition by rewarding communities who are adopting policies that are making a difference. I have full faith that when those solutions prove their merit, the momentum will continue to snowball. We're seeing that with zoning, we're seeing that with multi-unit residential construction. My hope is we can see that in the home-building industry with more factory-built homes.

There's no shortage of solutions, but once communities see that they start to work somewhere, they're willing to try them in their own backyard more often.

Erin: Can you tell us why initiatives such as the Cooperative Housing Development Program are going to help Canadians?

Minister Fraser: Certainly. If you're going to understand how we can help, you have to understand that there is a problem first. Separate and apart from the housing affordability challenges we have in the market, there's an enormous challenge when it comes to the lack of social housing, affordable housing for low-income families in this country that is subsidized by governments.

The reason that we have a shortage of non-market housing in Canada, and by the way, we have about 4% of our total share of homes in this country exist outside of the market, the average for developed economies in the world is about double that, and the number of people in Canada who live below a low-income threshold is between 10% and 11%. There are going to be people who fall through the cracks. If you have more low-income people in your country, then you have houses that are designed to support people with low incomes. The cost, by the way, of a shortage of affordable housing is not revealed just in housing costs. You see increased health costs as people run into challenges with the mental health system and emergency room more often. You see more challenges in the legal system when people have challenges with the police or the courts. You see people less often fulfill their economic potential because it's awfully hard to look for a job when you don't have a place to go to bed at night.

When we have investments like the partnership we've made with the Cooperative Housing Federation, or like the increased contributions through the Affordable Housing Fund, or a new acquisition fund to pull low-cost housing from the market into a non-profit setting, we can correct that imbalance between low-cost housing that's subsidized by governments and the number of low-income Canadians that live in this country. It's been 30 years without any serious investment by the federal government in affordable housing. Conservative governments and liberal governments have both chosen to pull back. We changed that in 2017 with the introduction of the National Housing Strategy. We've increased the ambition with the latest plan to solve the housing crisis, but these investments will help specifically target the needs of low-income Canadians and therefore benefit not just the people who live in them, but the entirety of a community's population on the basis of those costs we won't incur and the opportunities that more people who have their housing needs met can create in the communities where they live.

Erin: Nobody knows their communities better than REALTORS®. There are more than 160,000 in Canada, a collective that continues to be a strong voice for housing supply and affordability issues in Canada. Do you have any tips for them, Minister?

Minister Fraser: Look, I won't tell anybody else how to do their job. I've got enough people telling me how to do mine, but there are a few points maybe I'll make in response to your question.

First, I'm grateful to REALTORS® who put the interests of their clients first. This goes without saying, but I trust the industry to ensure that they're well informed on what policy tools may be available to their clients who are trying to save up for that down payment, who are considering whether they want to avail themselves of a 30-year amortization period. Make sure you understand what policies are on offer. You will be better than me at guiding people through the process of buying their first home in particular, given your wealth of experience. Continue to put the interests of your clients first, and continue to be aware of the tools the government has on offer to make it easier to become a participant in the housing market or a homeowner.

Finally, don't assume that governments know what your experience is. It's been extraordinary for me, before and after my time in this position, the wealth of information and experience that REALTORS® have shared about my own market in my own community, my own province of Nova Scotia, or nationally.

I should give a shout out to Susan Green, my friend, neighbor, and REALTOR® who's been involved with advocacy campaigns with CREA for a number of years.

Don't be afraid to show up at that council meeting. Advocate strongly if you believe in zoning reform, because in the absence of voices explaining how it will make a positive difference, there will be people who are afraid of change in their community.

If you can demonstrate through your experience, your knowledge, your training, that we can invite new solutions to communities who are not accustomed to them, and the world doesn't end. You can live in a community that creates a vibrant and dynamic place to live for a next generation of people who may call a community home. Don't be afraid to participate in the debates as they play out at a local level. Inform folks like me and my counterparts provincially about your industry's point of view. Make sure at an individual service level you continue to support people by making them aware of what tools are available.

I'm grateful for the work that you do to help guide people through the home buying process, and very grateful for the opportunity to connect today.

Erin: We're very grateful as well, Minister. Thank you so much for your wisdom, your insight, and your time. Thanks a lot.

Minister Fraser: A pleasure, as always. We'll look forward to our next conversation.

Erin: You bet. Thanks again to Minister Fraser for taking the time to be with us today. We all know this conversation isn't going away, and the REALTOR® community continues to roll up their sleeves and take action.

Of course, if you liked this episode, please tell us by giving us a rating or review on your preferred podcast platform. We always appreciate it.

REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA. Production courtesy of Alphabet® Creative, with tech support from Rob Whitehead. Thank you so much for listening. I'm Erin Davis, and we'll see you next time on REAL TIME.

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On June 5, The Bank of Canada announced its first rate cut in four years. This could be the sign many were waiting for to come off the sidelines and step into Canada’s housing markets. But, what does that look like across the country and how do other economic factors play into the decision making process?

On the latest episode of REAL TIME, we hear from Shaun Cathcart, Director and Senior Economist, Housing Data and Market Analysis with the Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA), Ann-Marie Lurie, Chief Economist with the Alberta Real Estate Association (AREA), and Jason Mercer, Chief Market Analyst with the Toronto Regional Real Estate Board (TRREB), as they share insights on the current state of Canada’s housing market from a national, provincial, and local level, exploring everything from the need for more supply to interprovincial migration to pricing.

Transcript

Erin Davis: It finally happened. On June 5th, the Bank of Canada lowered the interest rate for the first time in more than four years. Could this indicate the beginning of a shift in the Canadian housing market? If so, what can we expect at a national, provincial, and local level? I'm Erin Davis. Welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS®, brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association. Now, who better to speak to the state of Canada's housing market and economy in general than our three guests today?

Joining us are, Shaun Cathcart, Director and Senior Economist, Housing Data and Market Analysis with the Canadian Real Estate Association, Ann-Marie Lurie, Chief Economist with the Calgary Real Estate Board and formerly with the Alberta Real Estate Association, and Jason Mercer, Chief Market Analyst with the Toronto Regional Real Estate Board. Welcome to REAL TIME. What does the Bank of Canada's most recent announcement mean for current and potential Canadian home buyers? Why did this change happen now? We're going to start with you, Shaun.

Shaun Cathcart: Sure. Let me take the second part of that question first. The reason it happened now is because the Canadian economy is not doing that well. Inflations and the Bank of Canada's favorite BFFs, CPI-common, CPI-trim, CPI-median have been well-behaved, as they say, for four months and it just seemed like the right time. They were a little bit worried about the housing market doing it in the middle of the spring market, but they did it anyway.

What it means for current home buyers or current homeowners, if they've got variable rates, their payments will go down. If they've got fixed rates, that their renewal date is looking better, whatever that is out into the future now that this rate cut cycle has started. If you're a potential home buyer, if that's the signal you were waiting for to jump into the market, there you have it.

Erin: It really has a psychological element to it, doesn't it, Shaun?

Shaun: Very much so. If you think back to last year when buyers jumped into the market with both feet in March and April, basically anticipating rate cuts, and all they got was rate hikes, they weren't going to get fooled again this year. That camp has probably moved over into the, I'll believe it when I see it, and now they've seen it.

Erin: Ann-Marie, how about your perspective on this?

Ann-Marie Lurie: For our market, it's a little different. We're already in really tight conditions. Any change in rates is just going to bring even more demand into our market, especially for people who were priced out to a certain extent. What we'll be closely watching is what actually happens on the bond yield? Are we going to see this transfer into declining five-year lending rates on the qualification basis? Those are the things that we're looking at. Again, it's just going to further tighten and increase demand even more so than what we are already experiencing.

Erin: Because you've already seen pent-up demand and activity even before the rates moved, right?

Ann-Marie: That's right. Our market has been performing very differently than what you're seeing in some other major markets in the country. We've seen extremely strong demand, we have limited supply, we're in seller market conditions, and we've had strong price growth. This has been happening all the while, while we have very strong or very high interest rates.

Erin: Jason, your take on this. Do you think it's about time or what do you think?

Jason Mercer: Certainly, if you look at the GTA experience, it's been quite a bit different than what Ann-Marie was describing out West in Alberta or Calgary in the sense that, we did see a very real impact when the Bank of Canada hiked rates through 2022 and 2023. A lot of would-be homebuyers moved to the sidelines. It's not to say that most of these people don't want to purchase a home. In fact, most of them have every intention on making a purchase as we move forward.

Our public opinion polling done by Ipsos suggests that there's a lot of these homebuyers that maybe this first move on the part of the Bank of Canada may see some of them start to get back into the market. In reality, we probably need to see 100 basis points, 150 basis points before we start to see a real marked acceleration in sales activity. We'll see stronger activity in the second half of 2024, but even more so as we move into 2025.

Erin: Predicting is hard, we know that. What do you think July's interest rate announcement could bring?

Jason: Sure. I think the Bank of Canada stated that they're going to be watching all the various economic indicators. I think that's the case. I do believe that if we continue to see slower growth in the economy and moderate growth in the employment market, then I think there is, at least, a chance that they could bring on another cut as we move into July. It's probably 50-50 at best at this point.

Erin: Do you think a lot of people are holding on now? We're selling a house, so this may be a little bit personal interest here, but I've got you here, I might as well ask. I'm sure that there are people who are very interested in what's going to happen. Do you think that people are going to see the June rate drop and then go, "Okay, why don't we wait until July?" What do you think, Shaun?

Shaun: I think the first one is really the big psychological one. Rates aren't any lower. To Ann-Marie's point, this was already priced into five-year mortgage rates well before, back a month or two ago. It's really the psychological element at this point. To Jason's point, there's a lot of people that if it's the actual rate itself that you're getting that you're waiting for, a lot of them are going to be waiting for maybe 100 or 200 basis points lower than what it is now. For people that are just wanting to be sure, unlike last year where they got burned that the loosening cycle had officially started, that the Bank of Canada is going to wave the green flag on that. I do think that there's some segment of the market that will jump, and I expect to see it showing up in the first little bit of June.

Erin: What are your ideas on it, Ann-Marie? A July drop, what might happen?

Ann-Marie: Again, I think that it depends on how much this actually impacts the overall lending rates. I think it will encourage some people to reconsider getting back in that potentially couldn't. In our market, it's going to depend on if they have supply available to them. We've seen that there's been a shift towards more affordable product. It hasn't necessarily entirely curbed our demand, but we have seen that shift towards more affordable product. What we could start to see happen is a pickup in some of the higher-end product in our market as rates start to come down.

Erin: Interesting. All right. Let's put into context some of these pricing peaks and valleys. If you're looking at housing prices in a vacuum, whether it's locally, provincially, or even nationally without context, it can be hard to see a way out. Is there any context to be added to the discussion around housing affordability that could put things into perspective, Shaun?

Shaun: Sure. I think the biggest impact on housing affordability is the fact that the Bank of Canada is expected to move rates back towards much more normal levels or what would be considered neutral by them, which may be 3%-ish from the 5% that we were at for so long. That'll make a big difference for affordability. If you're expecting a lot more in the way of price declines, the biggest price declines were really in 2022 from quite frankly, a very short-lived peak.

People have bought basically, between October of 2021 and March of 2022. Other than that, a lot of markets are already stabilized near those levels that we had before and since. It depends where you are. Quite frankly, I would expect to see some moderate price growth creeping back in as all this demand comes off the sidelines.

Jason: Every market is different. If you look at the greater Toronto area, we have seen a pretty marked uptick in available listings. Initially, as people move off the sidelines and back into the market, start to take advantage of lower borrowing costs, there's still going to be quite a bit of choice out there. There will be negotiating power for buyers. Eventually, we're going to eat through, we're going to absorb some of that standing inventory.

When that starts to happen, there's going to be more competition. You're going to see more interest in a given home. That's when you start to see upward pressure stocking exerted on home prices. We will start to see that, later on, this year and I think even more so into 2025, especially if we don't see any meaningful additions of that to the housing stock. I'm sure we'll talk more about that.

Erin: We will. We'll also look across the country too, but, of course, when we've got Ann-Marie with us from Calgary, which is such a fascinating market to begin with. What's your perspective on that in terms of the prices? What's going on right now, or what you can expect, and what you've seen, Ann-Marie?

Ann-Marie: First of all, our market is obviously very different. We are relatively affordable when we look at other markets in BC or Ontario in comparison. We have gone through periods of price adjustments. We've been always known as this boom and bust market. However, I want to remind people that even though we've gone through some adjustments, our prices are rising again, and we still have a lot of catch up to do. We're still quite a significant spread compared to some other larger markets in the country, so it is a little different here.

Now, that's been one of those factors that has attracted people to our market, and it's why our demand has stayed relatively strong throughout this time frame, and it's why we've seen some really strong price growth. It wasn't so long ago that we saw prices actually, at least, say stable or somewhat slide. I think, again, a lot of that is to do with how we add supply and how much supply we can add. A little bit of a different scenario here. Like I said, prices have been rising pretty steadily for the past two years, but when you look at that spread, we're still far more affordable.

Now, people in Calgary don't necessarily feel like it's affordable after the price jumps that we've had, but, put some number of perspective to this. We still have product available like our typical apartment condos in the $350,000 range. People can still purchase detached homes in the 700,000 range. Very different market conditions here and for us, our affordable is a little bit outside of Calgary where we still have more options in all types of home options.

Erin: We'll get into the whys and wherefores of that as well, Ann-Marie, but let's talk about interprovincial migration. Alberta knows a few things about that. There's been an increase in interprovincial migration in the last few years, of course, Alberta being one of the country's hotspots and it's not just because of great hockey. What might be causing this? Let's get all your opinions on this. We'll start with you, Ann-Marie. What makes Alberta so different?

Ann-Marie: I think our relative affordability has been a draw because when we look at our interprovincial migration; the majority of people have been coming from Ontario, followed by BC. These are the two markets that we're seeing a lot of people come into the city. Again, our affordability is, we're far more affordable relative to those two markets. That's been one of the factors that have attracted people here. Further to that, especially we did have supply going into some of this. Now, obviously, supplies become a bit more of a challenge now. Other than that, we've also been creating a lot of employment. Employment has actually been improving here and really a lot of professional and technical jobs, which tend to be in a higher pay grade. This is another factor that's really contributed to it. It's not just the relative affordability, it's also the positive employment situation. Even our economy has really been outperforming some of the other provinces in the country.

Erin: Shaun, your take on the interprovincial migration?

Shaun: That's been an interesting one to track. As Ann-Marie said, a lot of Ontario to Alberta, and a lot of that is the younger set, 25 to 35, looking for employment, but also home ownership where that's become very difficult in Ontario. There is even some evidence in the demographic data that the 65-plus boomer parents are following their kids and grandkids out West because what's the point of having your big Toronto home if no one's going to visit you? Another trend is the older Gen Xers moving out East for their retirements.

I guess maybe the 60-years-old, they got called back to the office to make that Toronto commute and said, "You know what, I'm going to sell my big house and move out there where I can get a place for 300 and retire early." Lots of interesting trends. I think we have a tendency to blame COVID for a lot of these. Certainly, COVID was a turbocharger of a lot of things there were, but up and out to be able to afford a home has been going on for a very long time.

Erin: Ann-Marie, you mentioned the tech sector. Is that one of the parts of the growth of Alberta where people can move to be at home, be working from home? Has that added to the attraction in Alberta?

Ann-Marie: I think that does come into play. There's no question that sector has been growing here. Alberta has been able to attract a lot of investment into even venture capital. That's been one factor that has supported some of our growth. The majority of our industry is still in the energy sector and spin-offs from the energy sector. I think that ability to work remotely has increased the appeal, especially because of our relative affordability.

That if you're not having to go into the office and now you can, all of a sudden, purchase and get into homeownership, as Shaun was saying, we had product available in all price ranges for several years. I think that for a lot of people who really desire homeownership, Alberta is really a good option for them, especially if they're not having to go into the office. We've improved our connectivity in terms of airlines. We're seeing growth in different industries that we haven't seen. That's really speaking to some of our diversification that's happening in this province as well.

Erin: Jason, we all heard during the pandemic about people who were living the dream, going up to the cottage, staying at the cottage, working from the cottage. Is that still happening? Is that still a thing or Is that bump? Are we over that and it's back to normal thing? What are you seeing in terms of that remote working now?

Jason: It's interesting. If you think about the movement out of the GTA property to surrounding areas, it could be cottage country, it could be other smaller metropolitan areas in the greater Golden Horseshoe like the Kitcheners and Hamilton's of the world, that's a trend we were already seeing prior to COVID in the sense that people didn't want to leave Ontario to say move to Alberta, but they were looking for a place that was more affordable that they could purchase a home in Southern Ontario. We see that, we look at our members' activities. It used to be that the great, great majority of transactions reported through TRREB's MLS system were within the traditional GTA boundaries.

Now, you're looking at more than a third of those transactions are actually in other centers in Southern Ontario. People's clients have started to look further afield to purchase a home, and our membership has been helping them out. If you think about, though, whether those people are being replaced, they are. We're not seeing a hollowing out of the GTA, it's just from a different source. We're the single greatest beneficiary of immigration into the country. People want to move to the greater Toronto area to take advantage of a diverse labor market and what have you, but it impacts the housing market differently, rental versus ownership.

Erin: How does interprovincial migration, we will get to immigration, Jason, but how does interprovincial migration affect any housing market? Are there areas popping up as hot spots that might not have been considered before? You talk about the general spread, Jason, into the Golden Horseshoe or even East to Port Hope, Trenton, all of the places that used to seem so far from Toronto, but now people are finding they'd rather drive for two hours than sit in traffic for two hours. How does this migration affect the housing market? Shaun, do you want to address that first?

Shaun: Sure. I guess the biggest impact would be that it's spreading, whereas it used to be that it was Toronto and Vancouver were expensive and most other places weren't. When you've got all of those people moving out into those other places, once Toronto and Vancouver were in some sense limit to how far those prices could go up and how many people you could jam in there, it spreads across the country, including during COVID, where it was disproportionately to the East Coast, places where they were considered very affordable before. It's a double-edged sword because it's nice to have that home price growth and that activity level in places that were pretty sleepy for decades. If you're a local person in Fredericton, for example, and you're looking to buy that starter bungalow, and you're now having to compete with a retiree couple from Toronto who just sold a place for $1.7 million, that's where the double-edged sword comes in.

Erin: We've touched on this a little bit so far in terms of demographic. Shaun, you mentioned retirees from Toronto moving to Fredericton and people also wanting that particular house coming from different income brackets. When it comes to location popularity, can you see anything or tell us about anything that you've seen and the contributing factors that you've noticed?

Shaun: Sure. One of the things that's going on in demographics all around the world, quite frankly, with the hockey stick of population that popped up after World War II, is that most of those people are still around and just aging through time. In that middle-aged space, you've got now your boomers, your Gen Xers, your Millennials all in that space at the same time. We stopped building the traditional low-rise single-family home about 20 years ago.

A lot of those, not to make accusations, but a lot of the empty-nester boomers are stuck in those big homes. A lot of those bedrooms are collecting dust, whereas a lot of young people are looking to start families and can't do that in a 600-square-foot condo. As we mentioned, they're moving out further. I don't know whether that makes those other regions popular. It's mostly because they're more affordable to get a place that's suitable for, say, a family of four.

Erin: Ann-Marie, what are you seeing? Are you seeing more retirees, or you're seeing the younger end of the demographic coming in and trying to really start something?

Ann-Marie: I would say we're seeing younger demographics increase here. That's what's attracting people to our city. Again, part of that is because we do have that supply of detached homes that are larger that can house a family, as well as other product types and in affordable ranges relative to other larger markets. We traditionally find that our interprovincial migration tends to be younger people that are coming here. We continue to see that trend play out.

It's been the largest growth in terms of our demographics, and a lot of them are coming specifically into Calgary. Again, that has to do with that future opportunity as well. What does that job prospect look like? In addition to that cost of housing, we are relatively affordable, especially given our salaries here tend to be a little bit higher than some of the other locations in the country.

Erin: Also, Ann-Marie, as you well know, of course, Alberta has this spread out factor as well, where Okotoks, and Longview, and Turner Valley, and Black Diamond, and even Airdrie were places that were so far from Calgary at one time. These places are just a drive away now and not a huge one. What about the spread-ability of Calgary? Has that worked to your benefit? Is the market taking advantage of that geographically?

Ann-Marie: It does. Yes, for sure. I think one of the differences is in our market, is that we can add supply when we need to. Traditionally, throughout every cycle we've seen, whenever we run into these extreme shortage scenarios, we see the new home industry is able to really expand. Last year Calgary had a record level of housing starts in the Calgarian region area. We have to remember that we are not like Toronto where our surrounding communities, or surrounding cities, or towns are a very long commute. We have markets like Airdrie that it's actually a closer drive if you work in the North part of the city than it would be if you lived in South Calgary.

I think that that's an important distinction as well in how our market's a little different, is you're not driving that far out for affordability. It is a little different. We still have land available within the city limits that can add significant homes. We're seeing construction happen and respond to basically the supply shortage that we're currently facing. I think that's always been the difference in Alberta, is because we do have a lot of land.

In fact, I think that now we're starting to see some shifts as well, not just from Calgary, but in Edmonton, who last year recorded price declines. They're starting to see a bit of a shift as well that more people are considering Edmonton, which is relatively more affordable than Calgary. I think that there has to be a lot of perspective in the difference about how you can add supply. That's something that our province has been really good at doing, but part of that is because we have that land supply available.

Erin: In 2023, Canada's immigration numbers were much higher than we're accustomed to, putting more pressure on an already stressed Canadian housing market. This added pressure on the market, it also affects supply and affordability. How have you seen this play out in the Canadian housing markets? We'll start with you, Shaun.

Shaun: Sure. Just for anyone that doesn't know, it's a combination of immigration, which we have a target for, and non-permanent resident arrivals that add to that population growth, typically in the 300,000 to 400,000 person range, sorry, from about World War II until about 10 years ago. Last year it was 1.25 million. That's a huge jump in people. Everyone needs to live somewhere. I think what's amazing is that we're really not seeing much of an impact in the ownership market. It's all flooding into the rental market, which was already struggling beforehand. We do expect to see some flow out of the rental market, into the ownership market, even in the absence of big rate decreases just because for a lot of people, it's going to start to look a lot more just relatively favorable to buy, even at very high rates and prices, than to stay at a rental market that's increasingly expensive and maybe precarious too in terms of being able to stay in your unit.

Jason: It's interesting. We've done a lot of polling around immigration, and certainly, our last round of Ipsos polling found a couple things. There's a short-term and a long-term story to this. When we're seeing record levels of immigration into Canada and certainly, drilling down to the GTA, a lot of that initially is pointed at the rental market. We've seen very tight rental market conditions over the last number of years. At the same time, when you look at people's propensity to purchase a home, we actually find that newcomers to Canada, the period to move from renting to owning is actually shorter than for households that were born here.

If you think about that, the last couple of years, we've seen record immigration that's really impacted the rental market, but these people are actually going to be moving in fairly short order into the home ownership side of things. Putting interest rates aside, just the simple fact that we're seeing this strong population growth on the back of a population cohort that has a higher propensity to buy, that really provides a longer-term view that we're going to continue to see strong demand for ownership housing.

Erin: That's fascinating. All right. You'll remember that CREA's pre-budget submission includes recommendations on how the affordability and supply issues can be addressed, just what we've been talking about today. From your individual perspectives, what types of housing are needed to solve the housing crisis? We'll start with you, Shaun.

Shaun: Sure. When we were advocating for more supply, it was more of everything. You can choose the number you want to look at, whether we need an additional 1.4 million homes per the PBO just to catch up by 2030, or whether we need another 3 1/2 million per CMHC by 2030, which is a tall order, given the fact that we'll be lucky to make the 2.3 million baseline that that needs to be added on top of.

You really need more of everything. It's not one or the other, but it may have to be one or the other in terms of capacity constraints to build. I think our more recent submission does encourage the government to look at a modular housing of factory built penalization, mass timber, and some of those new technologies where there may be some really big opportunities going forward to do things better, more energy efficiently, faster. It does have some challenges, which is why it hasn't taken off yet.

Erin: Jason, the missing middle, tell us about that.

Jason: I think it's a really important concept. It jumps off something that Shaun said earlier about more aged households living in a home that's way too big for them. It's not that a lot of these people want to live in this large home, it's that they want to live in their current neighborhood. They don't want to move away from friends, they don't want to move away from the amenities that they're used to, and they simply don't have other housing options that would better meet their needs.

If we're able to see a greater diversity of home types, not just more housing in the aggregate, in a lot of built-up neighborhoods, but also in new subdivisions and developments that are being put up, I think you'd see an easier movement through that housing continuum over time, from renting, to owning, to buying your second home, et cetera. People would be more easily able to find a home that meets their needs. What you'd see then is more churn in the marketplace and less of these tight market conditions, some of which are due to the fact that people don't believe they'll be able to list their current home for sale and find something else that meets their needs.

Erin: That sounds brilliant. I love the idea of that, staying in your neighborhood but downsizing at the same time. What is the big obstacle there? Is it NIMBY, where there was a 4,000 square foot house if it turns into a multi-family like six or even just row houses for three families? Is it NIMBY? What is it? What do you think is the main obstacle there?

Jason: I think certainly, when we first started banging the drum on the need for more housing supply, it was thrown out by some policymakers as a bit of a red herring. I think over the better part of the last decade, there's really been that realization that housing supply has been a problem. We've got a housing supply deficit that's built-up over time. We're also not building enough homes to account for the record levels of population growth we're expecting to see over the next few years. With that in mind, I think there's been a real positive shift on the part of all levels of government that A, we need to see more housing supply in the aggregate, but we also need to see a greater diversity of home types brought online.

I think that started to permeate down to the neighborhood level. I think more and more people are seeing A, yes, we need more housing supply, and B, it doesn't make a lot of sense to oppose it. I'll tell you, we did a study looking at what the art of the possible is for missing middle types of housing, both in existing built-up neighborhoods, but also in new developments. Some of the options look pretty cool. I think there's an educational component as well. If people that are initially opposed to new types of housing in their neighborhood looked at what some of the possibilities are, I think there'd be a lot less resistance.

Erin: I love the thought of that. Ann-Marie, Alberta, what's going on there?

Ann-Marie: First of all, we've only really seen a struggle to keep up with supply over the past two years, and that's just because of the sudden influx we've had of migrants. I think that's just some of the differences that, again, our market has had. Now, with regards to adding supply, there's no question. I think we need all different forms of supply. Now, our newer communities are quite diverse. They do have a really good selection of your typical detached homes to your semis, and row, and apartment properties. I think that because we have still a lot of new community development, we're seeing that good mix in all of our newer communities.

Now, when it comes to the existing communities, sometimes that's where there is some challenges. Often the challenge in our market is not that the redevelopment can't happen, it's what type of pricing are you coming in at? The biggest challenge that we're seeing in our market is development of affordable type of ownership properties. Again, affordable is always relative to each market, but for us, it's how do we get that product available in some of those lower price ranges? We traditionally saw even apartment style product, we used to have product available in the 200,000s. Now that's disappearing. Where we're finding the biggest challenge to add supply is in those lower price ranges.

That's where we're seeing supply actually decline. I think that for us, it really comes down to what are those options to increase that land supply available to develop on? That's something that is another thing that tends to influence our market, is that ability to unlock that land for development. We've seen land costs rise significantly, especially when there's been some boundaries placed on new development within the city limits and outside of our city. Those are things that we're looking at on a policy basis, but I think that the biggest challenge that we're facing today is having supply come in some of those lower price ranges where we traditionally had supply.

Erin: What impact does our REALTOR® advocacy have on the current state of the housing market? We'll start with you, Shaun.

Shaun: We've got 160,000 voice strong membership. We have a very strong presence up on Parliament Hill, a lot of connections and meetings that are happening all the time, PAC days here in Ottawa, where we basically meet with every MP in the country and with the REALTOR® representative from their area. We also have PAC at home where members meet their MP where they live. We've got a really, really, very, very strong advocacy voice here in Ottawa. I think that the things that we're advocating for are being echoed by other organizations as well. It's everything on the supply side. I think that all political parties are on side with that. It really is a front burner issue in Canada. A big part of that is been that we've been out there for the last few years saying this is what you need to be focused on.

Erin: Jason, you've been talking about supply as well, of course.

Jason: Thinking about government relations at all levels of organized real estate, whether you're thinking about the board level, the provincial associations, or CREA at the national level, there's been a great partnership there. I think that's in realization that it's all three levels of government that have a role to play in housing policy and certainly recently making things work from a supply perspective.

I think we've really seen the benefits of that cooperation over the last number of years as the feds, the provincial government, and local government, certainly in the GTA and across the country have come up with some unique new policy stances and platforms that hopefully, we'll see more housing supply come online. I think the next couple of years, we're going to tell this tale because we need to move from the policy paper to getting actual shovels in the ground.

Erin: Oh, thank you, Jason. I love that you talked about the future here because it's a perfect way to begin our wrap up to this Episode 51. What is one thing that ®S should pay attention to this year? We'll go local, and provincial, and nationally. Jason, let's start with you, again, on this one.

Jason: I think at the local level, if you look at a region like the GTA, every neighborhood can be different. Whereas in some parts of the GTA, even in this environment of higher borrowing costs, some neighborhoods have been very tight. If a listing comes on the market, you're seeing a lot of competition for it. In other areas, it's going to take some time to see market conditions pick back up. Of course, then that dictates what your strategy is going to be as a buyer or seller. A REALTOR® that really knows what's going on in a local area is, obviously, going to have a lot of value to bring to that transaction.

The other important thing I'll note is just the value that REALTORS® in general bring to the overall economy. We've estimated that every transaction that gets reported through TRREB's MLS system results in another $70,000 worth of expenditure in the local economy. There's billions of dollars of economic benefit and associated jobs and tax revenues that's associated with REALTORS®' work.

Ann-Marie: For us, I think the key thing is to understand that we are different than sometimes the national trends. Again, looking at it on what are those local factors that are driving our province and our overall economy? Are we going to continue to attract people from different parts of the country? Is our migration numbers going to stay strong? That has a significant impact on our housing market. I think that understanding some of those different trends really come down to some of the fundamentals that are driving our provincial economy versus what you might be seeing in other parts of the country. I think it's going to be very important for both buyers, and sellers, and REALTORS® to really understand some of the dynamics within our market. Again, what we're seeing is very differing trends in the lower price ranges, and different product types, and as well as by location. Our market is still a seller's market condition, and that's not really expected to change over the short-term until we see some shifts in supply.

Erin: Last word to Shaun Cathcart. Shaun, what do you say about what's coming up?

Shaun: I guess the big one would be, think about boring costs coming down. They could come down faster than people think. Think about how much pent-up demand there was beforehand, how much pent-up demand there's been the last two years when the market's been very quiet, and how much additional demand is coming through population growth. It's not a database that we can measure, but we know that there is a record number of people out there on the sidelines ready to go. You've got increasing turmoil in rental markets, pushing people towards the ownership market, and when boring costs drop, be prepared to get a lot busier maybe faster than you think.

Erin: I love that note on which to end. Thank you. Thank you all so very much for sharing your wisdom here with us all today. Best of luck to you in the second half of 2024.

Shaun: Thank you.

Jason: Thanks very much.

Ann-Marie: Thank you.

Erin: That conversation certainly gave us a lot to digest. If you want even more context or to keep up with how things play out, visit creastats.ca for the latest housing market analysis. Of course, if you liked this episode, please tell us by giving us a rating, or you can review us on your preferred podcast platform. We always appreciate it. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA. Production is courtesy of Alphabet® Creative, with tech support from Rob Whitehead. Thank you so much for joining us here. I'm Erin Davis. We'll talk to you soon on REAL TIME.

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From websites and ads to social media, newsletters, and podcasts, content is everywhere and has the potential to be a powerful business driver.

But how do you consistently create good, creative content?

That’s where Melanie Deziel comes in, a creativity coach and leading voice in content marketing. With clients including Google, Netflix, The New York Times, and others, Melanie joins REAL TIME to share her framework for systemizing creativity, making it easier and faster to generate content that stands out and connects with your audience.

Learn more about Melanie and her book The Content Fuel Framework at MelanieDeziel.com.

Transcript

Erin Davis: Web pages, social posts, newsletters, podcasts; content is everywhere, but do you need to be too? I'm Erin Davis and welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS® brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association. Joining us today is Melanie Deziel, a creativity coach and one of the top voices in content marketing. Hitting a wall with your content? Not sure which channels are best for your business? Let's delve into what makes a strong content strategy with our guest today.

Well, thank you for joining us today on REAL TIME, Melanie. I'm so excited about this discussion. Let's start with the basics. What is content marketing and why might it be an important tool for entrepreneurs?

Melanie Deziel: Content marketing is a really broad term and it can be used to include a lot of things. I think for our purposes, we want to think about any time we're intentionally using content to communicate with our audience. That could be the copy that's on your website or the copy of an email, it's the content you're putting on social media, it's the videos you may record. All of that is really the content that we're talking about here, things we are constructing as REALTORS® to try to really convey a specific message to our audience.

Erin: One of the phrases you use, and I love your books and I'm so glad we're going to be focusing on one of them today, is random acts of content. Now let's look into that a little bit. What do you take that to mean?

Melanie: A lot of times what happens is you have this vague understanding that I'm supposed to be on social, I'm supposed to create content, and without putting a ton of strategic thought into it, because that's not what we were trained for after all, you just do your best. You throw something out there, but you haven't put enough thought into whether that serves your business, whether that serves your goals with who you're trying to reach, whether the audience is correct. That's where we end up with the random acts of content. You're using all of your resources, your time to create these things, but they may not be serving your overall goals.

Erin: Okay. Most REALTORS® would agree it's important to have a social media presence, obviously, but what other channels are cornerstones, Melanie, of a strong content strategy?

Melanie: The content strategy specifics are going to be different depending on what your priorities are and, as we'll talk about later, I'm sure, how you like to create content, what kind of content you create. What we do know is that social media is important, so is your website. If you have a web property where you are sending people, you want to make sure that there's stuff there worth seeing. Not just your listings, not just your background professionally, but maybe some helpful blog posts, maybe some articles about common challenges they may run into, maybe other helpful content that's going to allow them to be a better client for you and allow you to better serve them. Thinking about what you can offer on your website as well as what you're offering on social media is a really good way to do that. We also want to consider the role that email plays in helping us to build that relationship, but also to sustain it over the long term.

Erin: Okay, let's talk about the frequency and cadence of emails. There's a meme going around that says, "Hey, I know I bought a toaster from you once. It doesn't mean I want to hear from you every single day." How do you measure that? How do you find not only your comfort zone, which could be every day because we've always got something to say, but what you think that the person seeing it in their inbox is going to say, "Okay, I'm going to click on this." What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie: I love the meme example that you shared. We have to put ourselves in the shoes of the toaster company for a minute here and think about, for our audience, for the relationship we already have with them, what is a frequency of hearing from us that they would expect and then tolerate, right? Because what they expect may be lower than what we ideally need to do, but what we don't want to cross is that tolerance threshold, where they're like, "Oh my goodness, get out of here. Mark as spam, delete, unsubscribe." We're trying to avoid that at all costs, so you want to think about that. It's going to be different.

For your established clients, folks you've worked with who already know, like and trust you, you have a little more leeway. You can talk to them a little more frequently. I think every day is still pretty strong. I think we're probably looking at once a week or every other week is really a great place to start to establish yourself and then to test from there more or less frequent. Anything less than every two weeks and people kind of forget who you are when you do pop up. Anything more than that and you have the possibility that, as we mentioned, you may be showing up a little bit more often than they'd like to have you.

Erin: Okay. What might a REALTOR® consider when choosing content channels and formats? Because there are so many out there, Melanie. How do we choose that?

Melanie: There are so many and it can be really stressful. There's a lot of pressure, I think, on us to be everywhere, do everything, be super active on all these different platforms. I would really encourage you to think strategically about a couple different things. The first thing you want to think about is where your audience is. Because if you're showing up every day on TikTok, getting millions of views for your amazing dance moves but none of your audience is there, that doesn't do anything for you. That's a lot of time and effort that you're spending that could be better served actually reaching your audience.

You want to think about that. Where is my audience? The answers to that you can find by looking for the basic social demographics of each of the different platforms. That information is usually pretty easy to find because they want their advertisers to know who they're reaching. As a general rule, if you're going after, high-income professionals, for example, LinkedIn is going to be the best place for you to reach that audience. If you're looking for moms, families, Facebook and Pinterest are going to be two great options for you. Instagram also has a lot of really great demographics that you can dig into based on the data they share and try to identify where are these folks. You could always, of course, pay to reach them through ads, but ideally, we'd like to make sure we're showing up in the places where we could reach them organically. That's the first thing to think of. That's the first one. It's like, where is my audience?

Erin: Right, fish where the fish are.

Melanie: Exactly. We don't want to be fishing in an empty pond or fishing in a pond full of something we're not allowed to catch.

Erin: Right.

Melanie: The other thing you want to think about, though, is like in our analogy here, what kind of fishing do you like to do? Are you a fly fisher? Are you a deep-sea fisher? Are you just a casual shore fisher for bass and trout? That's about as far as my fishing analogy can go here. You want to think about, what is your favorite way to create content? Because here again, I'm coming back to TikTok, if you decide-- you discover that your audience is on TikTok, but you are absolutely averse to being on video, you don't want to be showing your face, you don't want to be dancing, you don't want to be doing lip syncing, then that's not a good match.

What we're looking for is kind of a Venn diagram overlap of, where is your audience and what kind of content do you like to create? How do you like to communicate? Hopefully, we find something that's really in the center there that allows you to create in the way that's comfortable for you and effective, but also allows you to reach the ideal audience. If that overlap isn't as big as you'd like it to be, that's a time to think about the tools or the talent you can add to your team to try to fill that gap.

Erin: That's a great point. Don't feel like you have to do it all yourself. You, for example, are an amazing communicator. I love your speaking and everything that you do, but you don't love, say, the nuts and bolts, the cutting, the editing and that sort of thing. That's where you say, hey, somebody has to be the star of this and somebody has this other set of tools, so you go about finding who has the other set of tools, right?

Melanie: Absolutely, yes. A lot of times the folks that we look to, especially on social media or in marketing, the folks that we're looking to as examples and saying, "I want to create content like that," that person very well may be using a professional photographer. They're not shooting photos on their iPhone. That person may have a whole video crew set up to make their videos look incredible and you may not have access to that. It is important to take a look at who are we setting as our standard, and are we working with the same resources, because tools and talent can make a big difference if you are trying to fill that gap. Hopefully, you're able to find the way you like to communicate. You've got the support of tools and talent that help you do it, and you're able to bring that content into an environment where your audience is ready to consume it.

Erin: Yes, that comfort zone is so important because if it's not comfortable for you, it's not organic and it feels like a drudge, and I think that the audience can pick up on that. What do you think about that?

Melanie: Absolutely. The reality is we got so much to do. Nobody has time to be doing things that make them absolutely miserable because there's something to be said for that. When you show up in a video or in a podcast or in some other environment, you need to bring your whole self. You've got to dial your energy up a little bit. You're a little more animated, a little more movement, a little louder than you might normally be. If you're not feeling it, that's going to come through really quickly. It's going to be obvious that you're not having fun, and that's not a whole heck of a lot of fun to watch or listen to somebody really uncomfortable or really clearly doesn't want to be there.

We want to make sure we're bringing good energy, and sometimes that means we have to change the way that we create content, we might have to change how frequently, and really tapping into, when does your energy work best? Just as a personal example, I know for me, I'm not a morning person. I love coffee; still doesn't help. I'm not a morning person. If I need to show up on video, I need to be animated and wide-eyed and bushy-tailed, morning is not going to be it for me. I'm going to be looking to schedule that filming, hopefully, sometime in the afternoon where I know I've had breakfast, I'm ready to go, I've warmed up and I'm feeling a lot more alive. Those are all things that you want to consider too. When do you do your best writing, or when are you your most alive and animated? Because that might impact when you decide to create the content.

Erin: Melanie, what's the best way to truly find out where your audience is, or do you just put in the work and watch what happens? How do you find that perfect pond, to go back to the fish analogy?

Melanie: All right, we'll do fishing for a little more. The greatest thing to do is to take a look around. If you've got other fishermen, other REALTORS®, other folks in your space who are targeting the same audience you are, they're trying to catch the same fish, take a look and see where they're fishing. Where are they dropping their bait? Where are they spending time? If they're having those conversions, they're having that engagement, that's a good indication that, hey, maybe that fishing hole over there might be perfect for the fish I'm trying to catch, for the audience I'm trying to reach.

The other thing you could do is-- I don't know how far our fishing analogy goes here. Maybe the Fish and Game website has some data about what fish are in which ponds. Our equivalent being you're going to look and see what you can find about that demographic data to see who are the users of these different networks, who's present there, who can you expect to reach. There are some tools that can help you do that too.

A great tool that I love to talk about is SparkToro, Spark T-O-R-O. It's a tool that allows you to plug in some keywords or an account or two on social media that you know is reaching the right audience. Then it will show you the related accounts, the related hashtags, the related podcasts they listen to, all of those different things, to give you a sense of where do these people hang out when they're talking about these key terms that are really important to me.

Erin: Okay, how hard is it to use SparkToro and is it free?

Melanie: There's a free-- there's free search access, so you could start and test it out for free. Then you can also go ahead and upgrade if it's a tool you decide you want to use more regularly or more intensely. What I will say is it's a lot more reasonable than many of the enterprise tools that are out there. You can, of course-- I mean, there are whole agencies you can hire to do social listening and sentiment testing and all kinds of stuff. That's really too much for most of our purposes. A smaller tool like SparkToro that's going to help you identify those audience overlaps is probably just the right size for what most of us are doing.

Erin: Excellent. Okay, I'm going to give it a go. I am. You're known for coming up with creative ways for businesses to engage their audiences. This is what you get hired to speak for, large groups. Now, what would you say to someone who says, "Look, I'm not creative"?

Melanie: First of all, I'd probably take a break and have a little cry because it breaks my heart to hear folks say that. Because the reality is when we're young, when we're kids, there's no fear of not having a good idea. You see your kids-- if you've got little ones, you know they come home with the wildest drawings, the craziest ideas, the best outfit combinations that they've picked all themselves, no fear of embarrassment, no worries about whether it's a good idea. Through schooling, through socialization, we start to become more self-conscious and we start to believe that there are negative consequences for bad ideas. The reality is the stakes on what we're talking about here are very low. We should feel safe to come up with ideas, to talk things out with our team, to discuss the different options without fear of humiliation or professional downfall. We're talking about something that should be fun, communicating with our audience, which we do know how to do.

Most of the time, if we can get through the therapy phase of helping make sure that everyone feels comfortable, it's also about having the right prompt. A lot of times we just focus on-- we have a hang-up like that, "I'm not creative," or I'm just the, blank, person. You focus on just this one thing and you reinforce that idea for yourself. Instead of focusing on why you can't do something or why you're not well-suited to it or why you're not creative, let's switch up the prompt and ask yourself something like, what could I teach my audience? What have I learned that my audience would want to hear? What could I do that would make their lives easier? What kind of information is my audience trying to find or what questions are they asking? Those questions are going to get you to the same result, which is something you can create that they will value, but hopefully it's not sort of digging into those same insecurities that may come from a place of being concerned about the quality of your ideas.

Erin: That would make it a whole lot less scary just to rephrase the prompt, what does my audience want to know? Then you use the tools and stuff that you've mentioned and maybe even like chambers of commerce and the things that are so local and important to the people in that area or where your client is. That's brilliant advice. Yes.

Melanie: Thank you.

Erin: You're welcome. Now, I know as a writer, you've probably had the writer's block, but what about people who get caught up in a creativity slump? Then how do you nudge us ahead?

Melanie: If we're stuck and a new prompt isn't working, like we just talked about, then sometimes it's helpful to just switch things up entirely. I know that sounds a little scary, but there are little things you can do that data and studies have shown us actually help your creativity. Small, simple things like try taking a different route to work in the morning, driving a different road. Try brushing your teeth with your wrong hand. What we're trying to do is get our brain out of a rut and get new inputs for our world. If we're consuming the same things, seeing the same things, it can be hard to come up with new ideas because there's a lot of sameness around us. Even just little ways to expose yourself to new information; listen to some new music, watch something on Netflix that's a totally different genre than you'd normally watch. Just find a way to spice up your inputs a little bit so that you, hopefully, make some new connections between different things that are going to inspire you to create some content.

Erin: All right, how about cutting back on the frequency of it? That can feel like a vacation. If you take away the having to do it, the obligation, then something can become more of the joy that it was meant to be.

Melanie: Absolutely, yes. There's a lot of burnout and fatigue that you can encounter, especially if-- I talked about earlier that once a week or every other week is a great starting point because that's less likely to lead to overwhelm. If you, right out of the gate, commit, "I'm going to do a new episode of my podcast every single day," there's a really good chance you're going to burn yourself out quickly and it's not fun anymore when it becomes an obligation. Yes, absolutely. If what you're feeling is sort of overwhelm and burnout and it's just not fun, that's a good sign that maybe take a step back, take a break or reevaluate the way that you're doing it to see if you can make it a little more approachable and a little more enjoyable again.

Erin: All right. What I'm really getting from this message is if you're a content creator and you pick a day like, say, St. Patrick- no, Cinco de Mayo. Let's pick Cinco de Mayo, and everybody and his dog is posting something about, how do you make a margarita? What's your favorite? How hot do you like your nachos? All that kind of thing. Is there some way that you can flip around something that everybody's posting about and make it unique, make it matter to the person who is digesting or receiving that content, Melanie? What would you do?

Melanie: Absolutely. Those types of posts that you talked about, they can feel like a lot of fun because we tend to get responses, but what they're not is really differentiated. If everyone's out there posting, what's your favorite topping for a taco, or what kind of nachos or margarita are you having today, we kind of blend in in this sea of content sameness and that's not what we're looking for.

The thing to think about is, what makes my perspective different? What is it about your perspective that can change the way this is? Because only you have lived your life, only you run your business, only you live in the place that you live, only you know the people you know. What you might consider is what if you were to poll all of your clients and ask what their favorite Mexican restaurants are in the area. That would be very unique. That's something that no one else can do. They don't have your clients, they don't live in your area. Even if they do live in your area, bring your own flavor into it. What are your favorite places to go around the neighborhood? What is the best meal you've had in a particular food genre that you can speak to and speak to folks who are in your neighborhood? Because the best place to take your kids for all-you-can-eat tacos in the neighborhood is so much more relevant to your neighbors than which of these toppings can you not live without on your nachos.

Erin: That's fantastic. When you think about it, if you were at the dog park and you just sat down on a bench next to someone, you wouldn't turn to them and say, "Hey, what's your favorite margarita today for Cinco de Mayo?" You might seem a little off, to say the least. You would ask something of the person you're connecting with on social media just as you would in-person and maybe reframe it like that?

Melanie: That's right. Yes, act like a human. The example you gave is actually perfect. If someone sat down next to you at the dog park and they turned and said very robotically, "What is your favorite topping on nachos?" He could be like, "Who is this robot, and which of my neighbors have they replaced here?" It doesn't feel natural. Yes, think of it that way. What's the conversation you would have? If you did run into a client and you were talking about that holiday or that topic, what would that conversation be like, and try to have your content align more closely to that.

Because the other thing you don't want to do is have all of your content giving out a certain feeling, a certain vibe, a certain emotion that doesn't align with how you actually show up in the real world. Just because everyone else is posting about margaritas doesn't mean that you have to be the party gal posting the same thing if that's not how you are, if that's not what you're interested in. Maybe you're someone who really likes history and you want to talk about the history of the holiday, or you want to talk about maybe someone in the community who has had a huge impact because of something having to do with that holiday. There's ways for you to look at it through your own lens and not feel like you've got to show up looking like everybody else because you're not.

Erin: You've given us so much food for thought so far and actually made us hungry at the same time. Thank you very much. I'm wanting nachos. Of course, you've written a couple of excellent books that are also filled with all kinds of great information, including Prove It, and the one that we're discussing today, The Content Fuel Framework or How to Generate Unlimited Story Ideas. Now in it, along with all kinds of great insight like we're hearing today on content and creativity, you share a system for creative brainstorming. Okay, how does the system work?

Melanie: It's a really good question. What I find when I'm working with clients, when I'm working especially with folks who are doing their day job and don't have to spend as much time marketing their day job, the idea of coming up with content can be really challenging. It feels like a foreign concept. It's not our day-to-day. Most often what I find is people get stuck because they're trying to think of too much at once. They want that one strike of genius, that one lightning strike, light bulb moment, the muse and just the right amount of coffee and to have something just magically happen in full.

What a content idea really is, is it's actually two things. When we break it down to its smallest parts, it becomes a lot easier for us to tackle that challenge of coming up with an idea. That first part that we want to think of is the focus. What is this content about? What is the story, the theme, the topic, the message? Those are all synonyms you might use. What are we actually trying to communicate here? Once we have that answered, then we can ask the question, what's the best format to bring that to life?

The example I like to give here is the reason we start with focus is because we've all gotten a package in the mail that the item inside was nowhere near the appropriate size for the box that was chosen. Somebody decided how to deliver that to you before they decided the content of what was inside, and the mismatch was really obvious to us. It creates a lot of waste, a lot of filler, and we don't feel good about it at the end of the day. We can do the same thing with our content if we're not careful. If we decide, "We got to do a video. It's going to be incredible. What are we going to say? I don't know. We'll figure that out later," then the video we end up with probably has a lot of filler, it's probably not very focused because we're deciding on the package before we decide the content.

When we start with our focus, what are we going to say, then we ask what's the best package to put this in so that we're going to deliver it effectively to our audience. Whether that is a video, a podcast, whether it's an infographic or something else entirely.

Erin: I will think of you every time I open a box and there's another tiny box or it's just filled with packing peanuts or airbags. Just filler--

Melanie: I don't know if that's good.

Erin: No. No, it's not, but it's a brilliant analogy, Melanie. Thank you. The book also walks readers through 10 different ways to bring your stories to life and the formats that they could take. Okay, so let's explore that a little bit too, like the base prompt.

Melanie: That's right, so the focus being what's our angle here. There's a lot of different angles that you could take, and as you said, in the book, I walk through 10 different ones just to give you some options to start. Some that are really common and that would work really well in this space would be people-focused content. Looking around to say, not just myself, I don't want only content that focuses on myself, but who are the people around me that I could create content about that would help me communicate my values, my job, my community to my audience. It might be people on your team. It might be the mayor of the neighborhood. It might be the person who's been running every morning for 20 years and knows the nature in the area better than anyone else. You know who those people are. That's the question to be asking. Who are the people that I could tell stories about that help convey this idea?

People-focused content is some of the most relatable stuff. It's not the only way to tell stories. You could tell stories about the history of a particular topic or an area, you can give people instructions on how to achieve something. There's lots of other options, but I think if you start with people-focused content, you're going to be on your way to creating some really engaging, really interesting and relatable content.

Erin: That's amazing. Okay, and to get a little bit more black-and-white about it, how about maps? What about using maps to do this?

Melanie: Absolutely. Maps are a really cool option. I think most of us default to writing written content or video if that's where you're comfortable, but there are some other formats that are so, so valuable. Maps is one that I think is really underrated, and given our expertise here, it's a perfect vehicle for us to deliver content.

We made the example before for Cinco de Mayo that we were going to highlight some of our favorite Mexican restaurants in the area, our favorite tapas places. We're going to really spice it up. Well, most people would probably think to just deliver that as a written list, but how much more valuable would it be if it were delivered as a map? Even just a basic map that shows where these places are, it's going to be a lot more valuable for our audience when we're talking about geographic content all of the time.

The same could be true for that people-focused content. I mentioned the person who runs laps every single morning in the neighborhood. I bet you they could create something really cool. Here's a two-mile trail. Here's a five-mile trail. Here's a 10-mile trail. Describing that step-by-step would make for some really boring content, but if it were on a map, it suddenly becomes something that's really useful.

Erin: Yes, digestible in a whole different kind of way. You mentioned briefly, history. What about our own histories? What about writing blogs kind of about yourself, not going into too much minutia or self-aggrandizing, but letting people know just who you are so they feel a connection with you, Melanie?

Melanie: Absolutely. At the end of the day, this is a relationship business. We're trying to build relationships with clients that hopefully last them through even more than one home. We want to be there for those important moments. In order to do that, they have to know and like us. We've got to be able to help them understand who we are and what's important to us. Being able to talk about the things that are important to you, your hobbies, your interests, your values, help them understand not just the services that you offer, but who you are as a person.

A great example of this is the REALTOR® that we worked with in buying our first home, Lois. We were looking at REALTORS® in the area and a lot of sameness, like we were talking about, a lot of similar content about how to look for your first home or whatever the case may be, but Lois' specialty was she talked about things to do for families. She specialized in helping families find their first home. My husband and I had a little one, and so seeing her content, knowing that she's focused on what's important to her, family bonding and family time, helped us see that she was a little bit different than the other options out there and she was the right fit for us. She's out there sharing content like- not happy spring or it's the first day of spring, but a great spring activity is picking berries with your kids. Here are my favorite berry-picking orchards in the area that are great for kids under 10, that they're very walkable, for example. That is so much more valuable than just a generic happy spring graphic. What can I do with that? Nothing.

Finding a way to tap into what makes you special. If you're a dog person, find a way to work dogs and dog parks and dog-walking trails and whatever else into it. If you're a music person, talk about the history of music in the area. There's ways that you can examine the areas around you, the people around you and the work that you do through the lens of what makes you truly special. That's what's going to allow people to connect with you on a deeper level.

Erin: Wow. Elevating your personal brand, if you will, and going deeper at the same time. Just brilliant. Okay. How can we ensure, Melanie, as entrepreneurs and REALTORS®, that we're creating content strategies that connect with people and support our business goals and not just content for business sake? I think you've touched on many of them; make it personal, use a map. I think the message has to be not me, me, me, but what do you need from me? What do I think is interesting to you?

Melanie: Absolutely. Yes, the example I gave of Lois is thinking, what do my families need? What do families in our area need? That's the driving force behind a lot of the content that she creates to connect with families who may be looking for homes in the area. You can do the same thing. Really focus on, what is it that your clientele are looking for? What are the challenges that they face? What are the problems that you can help them overcome? What are the questions that they have? If you're keeping your audience's needs at the center of the work that you're creating, it's a really good chance you're not going to get too far off-track and too self-serving.

If you do need some sort of formula, if you're a rules person, the 70-30 rule is something that comes up a lot. The idea of that at least 70% of your content should be for your audience, and then you can allow 30% to be for you, more self-serving, more of a call to action for your business. What we want to do is provide enough value that it's okay that we ask for things for ourselves on occasion. If we are only doing that me, me, me, there's not a lot of reason for folks to stick around. What are they getting out of the exchange? That 70-30 balance, if you need a goal, is a good place to be.

Erin: That is so brilliant, the 70-30. Give, give, give 70%, and then the 30% can be a gentle ask. It's so smart, and it works in real life relationships too. If you only call somebody when you want something, pretty soon they're going to see your number and go, "I'm busy." That is just a great lesson. Thank you so much for that, Melanie.

Okay. Now building long-term relationships with clients is critical in real estate, obviously. You're still in touch with Lois and you bring her up. How can REALTORS® be intentional with their strategies to not just attract new leads, but to help nurture and convert those leads and then ultimately retain them as clients? How do you do that?

Melanie: I think we've mentioned a few different approaches to creating content, talking about what your audience needs. It's also really important to feel comfortable talking about things that are not directly related to what you do. Coming back to that 70-30 rule. Most of your clients, once they're done working with you, hopefully, assuming everything goes well, they may not need to work with you for a while, and so those direct, ask-focused content might not be what they're looking for, it might not be the right time. You need to be providing enough value that it's worth sticking around.

I know we talked earlier about that threshold of, like your toaster company, how much is too much to be in the inbox. If your tools give you the option to segment your audience, to separate between you've got your hot leads, maybe your active clients, and then you've got your just warm ones, the ones that are kind of in the background simmering a little bit, that tiny burner in the back, the simmering ones, we just need to keep it warm. Reaching out to them less frequently with more audience-focused content is a great way for you to stay top-of-mind without overwearing your welcome, and making sure that they don't forget who you are, but they don't get bugged by you too much either. That's one option is to treat those audiences differently. Who are you maintaining in that simmering burner in the back, and who are you actively trying to fire up to make that conversion?

Erin: How do you think content marketing can help REALTORS® to build trust and credibility? I mean, rampant consumer skepticism. It's something that we discussed actually with Nature of Things, Anthony Morgan, in Episode 47, and it is real.

Melanie: Absolutely is. The environment that we are all operating in as REALTORS® or even just as business owners, it is some of the most skeptical consumer experiences that we have ever had. The data shows time and again that year after year, unfortunately, the world gives our customers a lot more reason to be skeptical, a lot more reason to doubt what they're hearing. Just look at your latest- your email inbox or your missed calls list, maybe your text inbox these days, and you'll see the spam, you'll see the reasons that they're not trusting.

That could be upsetting, but there's a way to see it as an opportunity. That in this world that our clients are operating in and our prospects are operating in, everyone around them is giving them so many reasons to doubt, and we can use our content to show that we are who we say we are, that we do what we say we do and that we can be trusted to help them with this problem that they're trying to solve.

Content gives you a chance to communicate the truth behind your business claims, the ability to really show that they don't have to take your word for it, you've got testimonials to back it up, or they don't have to take your word for it, they can see it themselves. They don't have to take your word for it, you've got accolades to prove it. Really finding ways to use that content to say, "I'm bringing you the evidence. I'm bringing you the receipts. I know there's a lot of reasons to be distrustful, there's a lot of reasons to be skeptical, but I'm going to help ease those concerns so you know you can trust me."

Erin: Terrific wisdom. Thank you so much, Melanie. All right. What three things do you want people-- what three toppings? No. What three things, Melanie, do you want people to take away from our discussion today?

Melanie: Three important things for you to remember is at the end of the day, your story matters. People work with you because they want to hear what you have to say, they want to connect with you and they want to work with you specifically, so bring yourself into your content. It's so incredibly important.

I also want you to remember that your content should serve your audience, not just your business needs. We want to make sure that the stuff is for our audience, that it's adding value to them so that they see us as someone who adds value to their life.

The last thing I want you to remember is that have some fun. This stuff is supposed to be fun. If it's feeling like a drag, if you're dreading doing it, it's a good indication to you that maybe something isn't quite right for you strategically. Change up your process, change up your content, try recording in a new way or a new day, and really just find a way to bring that spark back. Because when you're having fun, that's going to be obvious in your content.

Erin: Oh, that is so good. It reminds me of something a trainer told me once, that when you were a kid at the playground, did you stay on one machine for 30 minutes? No, you didn't. You ran around and tried all the machines and you just had a great time. I think your message is such a great reminder to bring the fun back into it and come from a place of joy where you can.

Melanie: Absolutely. It makes it a whole lot more fun because if it feels like a drag, man, it's just, why are we doing it, right?

Erin: Exactly. What a great conversation. Thank you so much, Melanie.

Melanie: Thanks for having me, thanks for chatting.

Erin: Oh, so much great content there from Melanie, so many messages on how to get your messages across in really unique ways, ways that resonate with you, ways that are about you.

REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA. Production is courtesy of Alphabet® Creative, with technical support from Rob Whitehead. For more real estate resources, tools and insights, visit us anytime at CREA.ca. If you like this conversation, our 50th, if you can believe it, why not explore the rest of our episodes, from the art of negotiation, to AI, sustainable business practices and more. We cover all things Canadian real estate with a wide array of exciting guests. Don't forget to rate or review the show. This is where the 30%, where we're asking you to do something, we always appreciate it, so thank you.

I'm your host, Erin Davis. Thanks again for joining us and we'll see you next time on REAL TIME.

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Everyone’s been put to the test in their career. On this episode of REAL TIME, we invite two members of the REALTOR® community, Anu Joshi-Mehendale and Dusko Sremac, to reflect on their top lessons learned in real estate as they approach a decade of experience in their respective practices.

Get advice to help you minimize mistakes, set yourself up for success, and stay motivated in your own practice – new or established.

Transcript

[music]

Erin Davis: Question: What do you wish someone would have told you when you were starting out your career? Would you have done anything differently based on their advice? I'm Erin Davis and welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS®, brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association.

Our guests today are Anu Joshi-Mehendale and Dusko Sremac, two very different REALTORS® from two very different backgrounds. What do they have in common? Like any entrepreneur, they've both experienced their share of trials and victories building a business in real estate. Are you ready for some lessons learned? Let's dive in.

[music]

Erin: First off, thanks to you both for joining REAL TIME. Let's do a quick round of introductions. Who are you, where you're from, and how you got your start in real estate?

Anu Joshi-Mehendale: Thank you, Erin. My name is Anu Joshi-Mehendale and I'm a real estate broker based out of Caledon, Ontario. Just finished 10 years in the industry, so very happy to be here. Got started out fairly early. I actually interned at a property management company the year after high school, and I was going to be starting university. It was a suggestion from a parent to go ahead and get my real estate license. Here we are 10 years later.

Erin: Okay. In this case, father knows best. It was your dad, right? He's the one who suggested it?

Anu: Yes, it was. That's right.

Erin: Okay. I'd love to get into a little later on why he suggested this for you, but we're going to meet our next guest now. Dusko, go ahead.

Dusko Sremac: Hey, my name is Dusko Sremac with the Real Estate Partners at Real Broker here in Calgary. I have been licensed for almost seven years. The way that I got into real estate was we started investing into real estate about eight to nine years ago. By trade, I'm a journeyman electrician. I was always around real estate and fell in love, and then I ended up quitting my job and going full-time into real estate.

Erin: Okay. Nice to meet you both. I love that you're both at just about the decade mark or thereabouts. We're going to explore not only how you got here, but where you're going. I'm really excited about this conversation today. Caledon, Calgary, it's fantastic. It's just very organic today. Let's dive into it. Anu, as you mentioned, it was your dad who suggested to you that you get into this. Why? Why did he suggest it for you? Was it something in the family or what led you there?

Anu: Yes. My dad actually got his real estate license several years ago, and that's still on his docket for an eventual retirement career. Now I'm happy to bring him into my team. He's actually working with me now. I don't think we saw all of that when he first suggested that I get my real estate license. I think there's a lot of things in the real estate industry that are attractive to a lot of people. Obviously, the promise of flexible schedules and the ability to earn, great potential for earning amongst many other things. I think there was a lot of things that led him to invite me to get my license and it's been a really, really steep learning curve since then for sure.

Erin: Dusko, you didn't come to real estate just like it was in the family, like Anu. As a matter of fact, I love the story of you being at the airport and just as you put it, blowing up the bridges. Tell us that story because that's one of what Oprah used to call an aha moment. Tell us how you got there.

Dusko: At the time I was involved in real estate for a few years, picking up rentals, looking at building infills. I had a business partner, and I remember after Christmas break 2017, it was January 7th, 4.30 AM, I'm in our terminal. My bags are checked in and I just sat there for about 15 minutes thinking, "This does not make me happy. If I'm going to do this, I have to go all in."

I remember asking security to get my bag back, got my bags, called my girlfriend, now wife, and I said, "Hey, where are you?" She said, "I'm just pulling into the driveway." I said, "Turn around, come back. I need to come home because I quit." That was the TSN turning point for me.

Erin: No kidding. Okay. That was a real moment for you. I love that it came out of the blue as you got your bag back and all of that. It's a fascinating story. We're going to be talking now about what do you wish someone had told you when you were starting out? Is there anything that you would have done differently? We're going to start with you, Dusko.

Dusko: I think just having realistic expectations of what it takes to build a steady, consistent, strong business. I think it's so easy to get caught up in social media and the way that our industry has shifted where there are models that are less sales and more recruiting. Now you get sold on this vision of success and what success means to you or what it should mean to you. It doesn't really matter what fields you're coming from and the level of experience. It does take a long time to build a strong, consistent business. I wish someone would have told me from day one because my expectation was to go from zero to 100 sales in year one. That's just not realistically how it works.

Erin: How did you get that impression? Where did you get most of the ideas of real estate that you had when you asked for your bag back?

Dusko: I think like many agents now, social media. You see all the sales, you see the upside, you see the income, the freedom, but you're not seeing the 10 years of experience and sleepless nights and working 24-hour days for years and years of building it in the background.

Erin: Okay. You were also around someone who had bought a bunch of properties too and that led you to believe, well, I can do this, right?

Dusko: Yes. I remember my first boss when I was 21, I think at the time he owned 50, 60, 70-plus units, duplexes, commercial spaces. I just saw the amount of wealth and opportunity that was built. It took him 20, 30 years to get there. I just knew that this is something that I want to do long-term and no regrets, that's for sure.

Erin: Good. Okay. Anu, what did you go in thinking when you started this? You went to school for this too, right?

Anu: I actually went to university for communications. That's what I joined in. I ended up switching my major to political science. That's led me to participate in organized real estate right now. I participate at the local, provincial, and national levels, the public policy angle of things. For real estate, at the time, we had a real estate college and every REALTOR® getting licensed in Ontario at the time went through the same program. It was six courses to get your license. I did do that while I was in my, I think, first year or second year of university.

I started pretty early. In terms of expectations and stuff, I don't remember even following agents on Instagram. It wasn't a big thing back then when I was first getting started. Instagram was, but not the REALTOR® profiles and the flashy agents and stuff. When I got into it and started doing it seriously, I realized that there's a lot more to it. Just like any other business, if you want to be successful in the real estate industry, you have to put the work in. My colleague here mentioned, the 20-hour workdays and all of that, that was not something that is readily available information.

We learn a lot on the job and a lot of that comes from experience, actually doing the deals. When I was 19 and had my real estate license, nobody was giving me their house to sell. I spent a lot of time working with mentors, with senior agents, just following around my broker of record to see what he was doing at the time. Just to learn more and more about transactions, more about the industry, and get all of that experience even before I touched my first deal. Nobody told me that it would be that much learning before I started, even in the realm of earning anything.

Erin: Yes. I think that it's almost like anything, right? Dusko, you come from an electrical background. You can read all the books that there are, all the manuals, but until you actually get in there, any career, and I come from radio, you could study radio all you want, but it's not until you swear on the air that first time that you learn that you're not supposed to do it. You know what I mean. You have to make your mistakes and learn those things.

Dusko: The one difficult part is when we're looking at even the trades, electrical, when I left, we had a 50-person crew, and it is life and death when you're working on large gear, big voltages, but you always have the support and supervision of those that have a lot more experience than you.

In real estate, you get licensed, whether you have 10 years or no experience, you can do the same amount of transactions. You have the same power to do the same deals. I think this is a very difficult industry because there is nobody looking over your shoulder to help you through a transaction. Brokers are there, of course, but no one can guide and lower the liability except for you, the agent.

Erin: If I'm hearing this correctly from both of you, it's your responsibility to find someone who is going to show you the ropes. Were you able to do that? We'll start with you, Anu.

Anu: Yes, for sure. I've actually been very lucky to have mentors in my life at various points in my career. I'm a firm believer in the saying that once a student is ready, the teacher will appear. I've been lucky. Obviously, I had to seek out those opportunities, but they did show up in accordance with my hard work and my dedication. I think that holds a lot of weight.

What you're putting into it, you will eventually get out. Maybe not right away, but eventually, yes. For me, that did come in the way of mentors, people that showed me right from wrong. Even now in my career, I have people in my life that will tell me, "Anu, that's a stupid thing to do." I'm thankful for that. It's not so great to hear it in the moment, but that professional experience that somebody else has, someone senior to me in experience and in the industry, can guide me.

I am extremely lucky to have that. Even to new REALTORS®, if you don't know what you're doing, it's all right. None of us did. We learned on the job. The capacity to learn and the capacity to adapt and the willingness to learn, I think, will make your trajectory better. It definitely did that for me.

Erin: I'm excited to tell you, we have a Working REALTOR® episode in the works right now about mentorship coming up. You're preaching to the choir here, Anu. I see that Dusko is also nodding his head there. I think you want to add to the conversation about mentorship.

Dusko: I think as a whole, as an industry, we need to come together and help one another. If I'm receiving an offer, even, and I know that there's things that are being left out, I'm still going to advise and help out that other agent and say, "Hey, maybe look at these two sections. They were left blank. Maybe consider adding A, B, C," or guiding them in the right direction as to who they should be speaking with.

Again, it's super tough. Like Anu said, you have to strive and go out of your way to find that mentorship. Thankfully, I was able to join a team where I think that I probably saved three to five years of struggling. My education was very much fast-tracked.

Erin: Anu, interestingly, and I mentioned this right off the top, how differently you've chosen to go your routes. You're not into the large team idea. You know that you're better off alone. That's a really powerful thing to realize, isn't it?

Anu: Yes, for sure. I think that came through a lot of exploration on my end. It didn't just hit me one day. I had to go through all of-- well, I started off as a solo agent. I did end up joining a team. I learned a lot from that and the team lead became one of my mentors for several years after that as well. I learned a lot there. I realized about myself, the way that I work, the level of professionalism that I expect from myself and from others, the best way sort of forward was for me to be a solo agent.

That comes from reflection. I think that the business model for a team is fantastic and it works for a lot of people. I think solo agents, that model also works for a lot of different people, but it really comes down to who you are as a person and what kind of business it is that you want to build. A lot of our personal traits show up in our businesses, whether it's positive or negative. Having that sort of self-awareness of who you are, what you bring to the table, what your weaknesses are too, what you can't do and bringing in people that can eventually serve your clients because at the end of the day, that's what it is.

We're not in a house-selling business. We're in the people service business. How can I serve my clients to the best of my ability? How can I facilitate transactions? How can I help them make comfortable decisions with often the biggest purchases of their life? A lot of it just comes down to a lot of self-reflection. Who do I want to be? How do I want to show up in my business? It's not just a business question. It's more of an existential question. Asking it early on will make the rest of your business building smooth sailing.

Erin: Dusko, what do you have to say about that?

Dusko: Very different businesses. The day I got licensed, I already knew I did not want to be a solo agent. I wanted to grow a team and that was since day one. Looking at it from a business standpoint, it's more what is scalable and I can't scale myself. I recognize that it is a people business and I do have a fiduciary duty. At the end of the day, nobody cares if I'm busy or sick or having a bad day. People need to see homes and deals need to get done.

For us, we started our team when I had less than 12 months of experience and we've gone from having two agents to over 30 agents. Obviously, six years later, we do about 500 transactions a year in our local market. A big part of that growth was just finding the right people and building a very strong culture.

Erin: Now we've talked about the first 10 years, starting out, building, as you say, Dusko, and learning and making mistakes, Anu, you referred to. A little bit of truth or dare and we're all out of dares. How about some truths? Tell us, if you don't mind, about a big mistake. This is not to embarrass you but to make sure that other people learn from it. Go ahead, Anu, I'm going to ask you to go first.

Anu: I had a near miss, it felt like it could have gone really, really negative, but luckily it didn't, so there's a happy ending to the story. I was selling a condo to a friend of mine and they were looking for two parking spots, which is sometimes very difficult to find. We ended up finding a place with two parking spots and forgive me for getting a little technical, but one of the parking spots was titled and the other was exclusive use in a condo.

What happened when it was, I believe it was the day of closing, they called me and said, "Anu, I thought we had two parking spots and our lawyer is saying we don't have the two." I was like, "What are you talking about?" "We looked at this, we looked at the status certificate together. We went through this together, you have two parking spots." They at this point were panicking because they spoke to the property manager, they spoke to the lawyer and they were like, "No, we don't have two parking spots." I said, "Okay, you know what? Give me an hour, we're going to figure this out."

I hung up the phone with my client and immediately started crying. This is not something-- I mean, I can laugh about it now, seven or eight years later, but at the time, it felt devastating because there was an ever so slight possibility that I may have missed something or we may have done something incorrectly or what have you. I spent that hour going through the status certificate, tears in my eyes and trying to find where is this exclusive use. The property manager at the time for the building that they bought was new, so they didn't necessarily know what was going on.

I did end up finding it, found the deeded spot, found the exclusive use spot. It ended up that they did have the two parking spots, everything was resolved, the client was happy, everything was taken care of. That was a very, very close call. That taught me that always, always, always be very diligent. To this day, due diligence is first and foremost the most primary thing that we have to do for our clients.

Erin: Good. I'm glad it turned out okay for you. Jeez. All right, Dusko, what about you?

Dusko: The appropriate ones, okay? Two really quick ones. One is ask for help early. I remember writing one of my first offers, someone walked me through it. Amazing. That weekend I'm writing another offer, but not on a detached home, now it's on a condo. I spent hours writing it up, trying to save it, buying titles, getting everything submitted. I end up submitting the offer and I get this phone call from the listing agent. She has about 20 years of experience, I have about 20 days of experience.

She goes, "Hey, is this your first deal?" I'm like, "Yes, it is." She's like, "Yes. You wrote this on the wrong contract." Now I've wasted four hours. Next time, definitely after that, I asked for help very early on the process.

Tthe other one is double-check with your clients if they're joking or not. I had a home inspection, the client's looking out in the backyard and goes, "Wow, a trampoline. I wish the trampoline was staying in the deal." I'm like, "Oh, mental note." I call the agent after the home inspection. We waive conditions, but I go, "I'm going to buy that trampoline for my client from the sellers." I buy it. Possession day is here. We're doing a final walkthrough.

The client goes, "The trampoline's here." I'm like, "Yes." He's like, "Why did they leave that here?" I go, "Why do you sound so disappointed? You were so excited that during the home inspection, I bought it for you. That's your trampoline." He goes, "What am I going to do with a trampoline?" It was the most uncomfortable one minute of explaining to him that he now owns a trampoline ever. Now I always double-check and I go, "You're sure you want the trampoline? This is not a joke." It's like, "No, we want it." Moving forward, I double-check with everybody. I asked for help very early in the process.

Erin: Okay. Oh, the good old saying, if you lose, don't lose the lesson, but your heart was in the right place, even if the trampoline, it turns out wasn't. Oh, my goodness. Okay. Let's flip it over to the positive. What was a big milestone for you? They ask movie stars, when did you know you'd made it, but what was a milestone and it doesn't have to be material. It could be something spiritual. It could just be like, "I'm on top of the world." How about you Anu, what was your milestone?

Anu: I'm not great at celebrating my achievements. I'll just say that right off the bat, but something that was life-changing for me in my career, as I know it is in my first year and a half or so, I was actually doing a full-time job in marketing. During that time, I was trying to do real estate part-time, but I had this epiphany and I truly believed that if I was going to give this my all, that's the only way I'd ever succeed.

That summer, I still remember when I said, "Okay, you know what? I'm going to let go of this job and I'm going to go headfirst full-time into real estate. It's just going to be swim or sink at that point. Sink or swim." I'm still swimming. It wasn't easy, but making that move really early on my career really helped. Of course, I was living at home at the time, full disclosure, I was still at home at the time. I didn't have to worry about a mortgage payment or a rent payment or anything like that, which was huge.

With that support from my parents, I was able to take that leap. If I hadn't taken it, then I probably would have been stuck debating between this part-time full-time situation, but I'm so thankful that I was able to do that and everything that came after that. I'm a very big proponent of doing real estate full-time, also any business full-time, a lot of respect for people that do side hustles. That's just my personal mentality that go all in.

Erin: Yes. Dusko, your milestone moment.

Dusko: I think it was just over two years ago, my son was born. I think that really changed perspective and priorities for me and my business. I'm extremely competitive in everything and anything. I cannot play games with anybody because I'm the worst loser as well.

I remember the first four, five years of my career, the only thing that mattered was making the top producer list and where our team would rank. That's the most important thing every single month. As soon as my son was born, it shifted towards, "Okay, how do we grow the business, but how do we also prioritize family time and our families?" At a similar time, my business partner also had his first kid.

We were going through the same transition at the same time, which is good. I can honestly say in the last two years, I don't remember the last time I looked at a top producer board. I don't care about what other people are doing. I've gone all in on just focusing in on our families and our business. You'd think that business would fall, but each year we've still had growth.

Erin: I just love the stories that you tell of taking the leap and there's the bridge for you in both very different ways, but Dusko, having a family and changing priorities does not necessarily mean changing the goals, does it?

Dusko: No, and I think you can change the schedule up. There's ways to become more efficient and prioritize the important events at work and at home. For me, for instance, we don't do lunches anymore, meaning we're not going to take random coffees or lunches with other agents because again, at the end of the day, what is top priority? Top priority is running our day-to-day business, taking out clients and family time. There's very little that we sacrifice on the family side. We just have to be extra efficient. We're still working long days, there's still 20-hour days, but we're always making time for family every single day.

Erin: It would seem to me, Anu, that that would be one of the real benefits of being part of a team of a brokerage. How do you manage that? How do you handle when something happens in your own personal life or you decide you want to do something or go away or just have some Anu time? What do you do? How do you handle that?

Anu: Absolutely, a great question. Here's where teams do come in. Full disclosure, I do work with buyer's agents. I work with my partners that will take over certain parts of my deal. I have a virtual assistant. I have a grassroots assistant that helps me with certain things. It's a very different team setup, but I agree with Dusko that the business that we built, scaling is an issue.

I ran into that much later in my business, about halfway through when I was realizing I reached my potential. I couldn't replicate myself. I couldn't show more than six clients a day or what have you. There is a cap for an individual. The natural next step is to build a system. Build out a system, have team members that participate in executing that. I know Dusko does that very well on a very mega level with his very large team. I do that on a much smaller level. It looks a little bit different for me, but yes, there is delegation involved.

There is other teammates that have that expertise that step in. At the end of the day, my job is to service my clients. How I do that, how I facilitate that is going to be up to the system that I build. I think Dusko brought up a great point as well in terms of family time.

Early on in my career, and even until very recently, I found myself working very, very long hours. That is something that I think in real estate or in any business to be successful, you have to be agreeable to that because that's what you're signing up for. I think you can be an average agent, you can be an average business owner, you can be an average anybody, but if you want to reach the top, you want to reach the heights of success, whatever that might mean for you, it might mean crazy transactions. It might mean higher gross commissions, what have you, whatever your measurement is to reach that, you need to be putting in work.

You need to be putting in the effort, the time that it takes to learn that art, I can call it an art now after 10 years, that all takes a lot of effort right off the get-go. If you're willing to put that in, I do think it's extremely rewarding. One of the things that we talked about earlier is the promise of this industry is, for example, flexible schedules. Some agents, maybe not as experienced, would say, "Oh, you get to make your own schedules and have your own time."

If you want to be doing a certain number of deals, you're earning a certain amount of money, you actually have to work a lot more than is expected, a lot more than the average agent will tell you. If you want to be productive, whatever that means to you, you have to put in the work. Eventually, there is an output. Eventually, you will have flexibility, you will have stability in your business, you will have all of these things, but it does take time to build that. It takes a lot of effort, a lot of learning, and a lot of inputs to be able to achieve that.

Erin: You both talk about starting basically in the past decade or so, and you've got all this experience now and wisdom under your belts with so much more ahead of you. Looking back, what opportunities do new REALTORS® have, new ones that might be become harder as you get more established? What do you think, Anu?

Anu: I think that new REALTORS®, the biggest thing that they have is that they're not yet committed to any one thing. I used a lot of my time up front when I was new in the industry when I was learning. All I was doing was learning. I barely transacted in my first two years. I was just learning and learning, learning different things to do. I used to shadow senior agents. I used to hold open houses for them. I used to do paperwork for them. I was literally learning everything grassroots.

My colleague and I, we talked about doing the door knocking, doing the online legion. There's so many ways to get business in our industry. Learn as much as you can and then figure something out that makes sense to you, that works for you, and that you can commit to, and then take that forward. I think a lot of agents and we meet agents all the time on the other side of the deal or at professional events and whatnot.

It happens to everyone. It's human nature. There's this stagnation, not just of themselves and their business, but also sometimes their mindset. "I've been doing this long, I know what I'm doing," that kind of thing. I am a lifelong student. If there is something new in the industry, there's constantly changes happening. It is my job as a real estate broker to learn about it, to figure out how to implement that in the best possible way to serve my clients because, at the end of the day, that's the game that we're playing.

I think that that takes a lot of effort. It takes a lot of reflection and it also takes awareness that even though you know everything up until this point, technology is changing. The industry is changing. People are changing. The way we do business is changing. Marketing is changing. Online lead gen is changing. The only thing that is guaranteed is that change. If you're able to keep up, like Dusko mentioned it before, this is where the agents that are in it, full-time, full effort, get to shine because we're doing this every day. We're reading the news. We know what's happening in other countries, other regions. We are using all of that knowledge together to help us achieve our end goal of servicing our clients.

Erin: Dusko, what experience can a newer REALTOR® have that helps you as you move on that you might not have now at this point in your career?

Dusko: First off, Anu looked at my notes and she stole my answer. I have very little to add now, but I'll expand on what Anu said because I agree with her 100%. I think the luxury that a newer agent would have, there's two. One, you should not have very high overhead. You're not going to have an admin, you're not going to have the desk fees, the advertisement budget that a senior agent would have.

Second thing is time. When I'm looking at what my open schedule looks like day to day, I have very little time now. When I first started, I was three to four hours a day on Tom Ferry or on YouTube trying to learn scripting and how to be better. I was asking senior agents. I was door-knocking. I was trying to do online legion shooting videos. If I could go back or if I could advise a new agent is figure out what you like to do because everything works.

Door-knocking works, online legion works, social media works, but it's like what do you want to do and what will you stay consistent with? Because I find a lot of agents, they'll say, "Oh, well, I saw Anu door-knocking and she did 10 deals off of that. I'm going to door-knock." I would rather do no deals than door-knock. I'm going to tell you right now. I'm door-knocked out and same thing with social media. You're starting to see this huge push. We saw it for a few years on TikTok and Instagram. Now it's shifted towards long form and YouTube. What's next? Again, it's what you're going to be happy with and what you're going to be consistent with.

Anu: Those were so great. Honestly, I will tag onto that. In terms of finding out what it is that you can commit to, I think that's a great point. I think people that are new in this industry put too much weight on what's out there. Also, going after the new shiny thing. TikTok was really shiny a little while ago. Every agent was on TikTok, and before that, it was something else, and before that, it was something else, and tomorrow it'll be something new. We have to find a balance between keeping up obviously with the trends, but building your business based on you knowing where you can show up and how you can show up.

Dusko: I remember when I started, I looked at-- we had one of the top teams in the world, in our marketplace, and we still do. I saw, well, he's doing billboards and he has this type of website and this is what he's doing, so I'm just going to replicate that. Well, if you have 50 to 100 agents in that budget, you can replicate that and you'll have somewhat similar results, but not really. I get phone calls weekly of agents asking me about what websites we run, what we do for PPC, what we do for SEO.

In the back of my head, I'm like, this is a 7 to 30-year play. When we're making a business decision, we're not making it for ROI three months from now, three years from now. I'm thinking, what's the return in 5 to 10 years on all these big decisions? I feel like so many people just think three to six months, but they need to be thinking three to six years because that's what really compounds a strong business.

Anu: I agree. There are two different hats. There is the hat as the registered REALTOR®, there's the agent, and then as the business owner. As you start to scale and you start to grow, I think you have to also balance what-- I mean, you mentioned that your schedule's all booked up. A lot of it is going to be your business growth tasks, maybe not your client servicing, maybe that's where the team comes in. I think that there are those two hats. Again, lot of potential in this industry, but you do get out what you put in.

Erin: What keeps you motivated as you move into your second decades, both of you in the phase of say, a setback or challenge, and how do you make sure that you'll learn from it and set intentions to apply what you'll learn in the future? We'll start with you. Well, let's start with Dusko.

Dusko: Looking forward, the next, let's say, even five years, the way that we lay things out is financial growth of the business. We have a fiduciary duty to our clients, but we also have a duty to our agents and our staff and employees. If you include the backend staff, the admins, and our partners, we're really responsible for 50-plus people because there's other sub-industries that rely on our business as well and we take that very serious. When we're looking at growth and investing, we're at a point in our business where now we're starting to diversify into other asset classes as well because we don't want to have all of our eggs in one basket.

Erin: Okay, and Anu.

Anu: In terms of setbacks, I think as time goes on, I think we become more resilient. we're more knowledgeable, we know how to bounce back from something better. I think things do get easier. More so, we get more capable of processing them and coming back from them.

The other thing also, is your purpose for why you're in this business has to be abundantly clear, both to yourself and to all the partners that you're actually working with. There has to be this vision for what you see for your future. It may not be just a monetary goal. I actually think that money is the least motivating factor. For a lot of people, I know it's a push. When we get into really thinking about how we want to show up in our business, that purpose actually stems from something deeper inside of us, who I am, what I want the contribution to the world to be. I think asking those kind of questions.

Some criticism is, "You're just a REALTOR®. What's the big thing?" No, I'm actually interacting with people's families, with people's biggest financial decisions. Advice that I give could set them on a completely different wealth trajectory for generations to come. We do hold a lot of that responsibility, and showing up with that sort of purpose in mind, whatever it may be, and it varies from person to person, but having a purpose, I think, fuels your movement forward and it makes it easier to get past the little bumps.

For example, in my first couple of years, probably my three or four first years, I actually wanted to quit real estate. Over and over, I just wanted to quit. Every deal was too hard. Every client objection was too difficult to deal with. I couldn't do it, and I hated it, and I wanted to quit. Eventually, we got through that, I got through that, and a lot of that came from reflecting. "What kind of business do I want to build? What kind of person do I want to be?"

A lot of that has helped how I approach clients, how I approach problems because the problems keep coming. More money, more problems. As you grow, you will get to encounter different types of problems. You'll have different types of responsibilities. All that comes with growth. Having that clear purpose moving you forward I think makes it easier to deal with these setbacks.

Dusko: Just to add to that too, I mean how many agents do we know or do you encounter day-to-day that say that they're burnt out?

Anu: Oh, yes. For sure.

Dusko: I feel like a lot of that burnout comes over time. I remember my first few years, I'd lose sleep over the tiniest little thing. Over time, you get a bigger gas tank, and you learn how to manage that stress and responsibility a lot better. You're right, 100%, the money is not a factor after you become consistent. You start saving money and you're covering costs. That's not going to keep your business going. You're going to get burnt out. You need to have a greater purpose and good to keep that going. Can I just say? I very much appreciate that you snuck in "More money, more problems," into that response too. Very much. That has to get clipped.

Erin: That will be in our Best Of if not on our social media. For sure. There was something that I've heard you ask in interviews, Dusko, too, which really just underlines what Anu said there. You ask a question about money when you're interviewing somebody,

Dusko: Real estate attracts people from all different industries and walks of life and levels of experience. One of the first questions I ask is, what prompted you to interview us? Why do you want to get into this industry? What's the big factor? I would say 99% of them, if they're not willing to say it, I'll say it for them and I'll say, it's the money. It's the promise of potential income and quick income. It's good and bad because a lot of people come into this industry. Ideally, you want to have 6 to 12 months of savings saved up. Very few are going to have that.

We call it commission breath. It happens in every commission-based industry where people, maybe they start making decisions or maybe they start getting extra stressed and not making the best decisions themselves because they need a paycheck. Unfortunately, that's going to happen in every industry that's commission-based.

Erin: What is the best advice? You're giving such great advice in this episode and we can't thank you enough. The best advice that you ever got and that you actually took to heart? I'm going to start with you, Dusko.

Dusko: The best advice that I got was to partner with someone. I was fortunate enough to find a business partner that had a different level of skill sets than I did. At the time, he was not a registered REALTOR®, he just got licensed recently. His strengths are tech. SEO, PPC, or marketing, and mine were sales. That has helped us greatly. I love having now partners that I can bounce ideas off of because sometimes I come up with terrible ideas.

I feel like the reason we're able to scale and build a very strong business is because we have a very open and honest relationship with one another in our inner circle. We can bounce terrible ideas off of each other and we can call each other out because that's a relationship that we have. I feel like when you're a solo agent, or maybe when you're a solo team lead, there's nobody there at that same level to say, "Hey, you need to stop because this is a terrible idea."

Erin: Okay. Anu?

Anu: Fair enough, Dusko.

Erin: Best advice.

Anu: I do have mentors that call me out all the time. You know what? I definitely see the value of having a strong partner that's in there with you. That's definitely important. Honesty between partners is important, but also honesty with yourself; who you are, how you want to show up. We've talked about that theme a lot. One of the best pieces of advice that I have received as a REALTOR® is if you have a choice that you can make in one of those situations, you're going to lose the transaction, and the other one, you're going to lose the client, lose the transaction every single time.

To this day, it has informed the way that I deal with my clients, the way that I service them, the way that I make decisions in my business. They're always, always client-oriented, never transaction-oriented. I found myself saying this to my clients, "If you don't close on this house at this price today, it doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is that you're happy, your family is secure in this decision because there's a lot more there that's at stake than this particular deal or this particular transaction."

That consultative approach of always, no matter what, keeping clients in front of me and just that is who I'm servicing, right? If you have a choice between losing the transaction, losing the client, give up the transaction every single time.

Dusko: To put a dollar figure there and put things into perspective as well, each deal should be actually good for eight other transactions. That includes future deals plus referrals. A lot of the agents that are like, "I just need to get this deal done," I'm 100% with you, Anu," I'd rather burn 30 deals a year than burn one client a year because the ROI in the future of having that strong relationship, rapport, and referrals is priceless.

Anu: I agree.

Erin: That was that advice. All right. You got one thing you want people to take away from this podcast and what would it be today? All right, Anu, to you.

Anu: Yes. For any new REALTORS® or anyone that's in the industry, thinking about maybe scaling up wherever you are in your business, just make sure that you're being honest with yourself, why you're in this, what your greater purpose is, and allow that to help you build a business that works for you and for whatever it is that your priorities are. It may be your family, it may be your other goals and ambitions in life.

Be all in and allow yourself to be purpose-driven because that is important and that's what's going to keep you from burnout. That's what's going to keep you from fizzling out like many agents do. It's not an easy industry, but it is an extremely rewarding one.

Erin: Dusko.

Dusko: Anu keeps looking at my notes, and I just have to call her out. Mine would probably be whether you're licensed for one month, one year, or 10 years, if you're lacking consistency in your business, it's lacking the consistency of you putting in that work. What I mean by that is even after being licensed for almost seven years, getting a lot of referrals, I still every single day am very consistent in reaching out to past clients, future clients, and trying to build my name and better rapport with people.

It's not easy, but I can promise you it does not matter how long you've been in this business. If you're lacking consistency in the amount of deals you're doing, it's just a lack of consistency of you working on your business.

Erin: Excellent. Thank you both so much for everything that you've brought to the table and the conversation today. We wish you both just great success from Caledon to Calgary and into your second decades. Best of luck to you both. Thank you so much.

Anu: Thank you so much, Erin, for having us.

Dusko: Thank you, Erin.

Erin: I just love how those two lanes are pointed in the same direction, fulfillment, balance, and a sense of purpose as REALTORS® in Canada. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA, production from Alphabet® Creative, and technical support from Rob Whitehead. If you want more real estate resources, tools, and insights, you can visit us anytime at CREA.ca.

If you liked this episode, please do explore our other episodes, including more from our Working REALTOR® series. Whether it is growing your business or balancing work and life, you'll find thoughtful advice from REALTORS® across the country. Oh, and don't forget to rate or review the show because we always appreciate it. All right. I'm your host, Erin Davis. Thanks for joining us. We'll talk again soon on REAL TIME. Bye for now.

View Details

A survivor of two civil wars, Zahra Al-Harazi immigrated to Canada in 1996 with her three children and no higher education. Today, she’s one of Canada’s most successful entrepreneurs.

On this episode of REAL TIME, Zahra unpacks the turning point in her story, when she defined her sense of purpose, and how it continues to guide her and her businesses. She also shares strategies for defining your own purpose, and how to harmonize your personal and professional values, so you can stay focused, motivated, and fulfilled.

Discover Ikigai, the Japanese concept Zahra swears by for inspiring your sense of purpose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikigai

Learn more about the Enneagram personality types: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram_of_Personality

Transcript

Erin Davis: What stories do you owe your 80-year-old self, and how can you start writing them today? One word, purpose. That's our topic today on REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS® brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association. I'm your host, Erin Davis, and our guest is Zahra Al-Harazi, one of Canada's most successful businesswomen, a woman whose life defies expectations, consultant, author, and community builder. Zahra joins REAL TIME to talk about the power of purpose and its business potential for REALTORS®. Let's get started.

Erin: Zahra, people have different definitions of purpose. How do you define it, and why is it important for businesses to have a purpose beyond profit?

Zahra Al-Harazi: Thank you for that question. A purpose is the explanation of the company's motivations and their reason for being. It's a way to set boundaries for what an organization will and will not do as part of its growth strategy. It is really important to have purpose as an organization because it defines the reason that you are there. Especially in today's world, between the millennials and Gen Z, there is a massive trust deficit, desire for sustainability, desire to fix social inequality.

Brand control isn't as much as it used to be because there's this rise of social media and people trust more in what other people tell them about a product than the product itself. There's all these reasons why you should have a strong purpose statement. Really, the purpose statement is your reason for being.

Erin: You have said that there are two types or two ways in which your values have to align with the corporation. Can you explain that?

Zahra: Rather than two ways, I think there is a personal purpose and then there is an organizational purpose. Really, those things should align. Organizations should really understand what their target audience, meaning their stakeholders, meaning their employees, their customers, what they want, what they desire, what is important to them, and then aligning that purpose to both those things. If I, as an employee, don't feel the same sense of values and purpose with my organization, I'm going to be less interested in what that organization has to stand for.

I will go looking for somewhere else that does align with my values, my sense of purpose, the things that I want to do, what my legacy is meant to be. I think those are the two things that are really important. A lot of people write these nice things like mission statement and values and purpose and whatever, and put them up on a wall. If you ask the employees without looking at the wall what those are, most of the time they won't be able to tell you.

They're also very similar to what every other organization is doing. You can change the logo in the name and put in another name and you've got pretty much the same sense of purpose. Truly understanding your audience, what they want, your employees, what they are passionate about, what motivates them, what gets them going, what drives them, is then going to make a really powerful purpose statement. Every stakeholder should remember what your purpose is without you having to articulate it over and over again.

Erin: Zahra, I find your own story of realizing that you had a purpose, of course, but it wasn't really in line with who you are or what you really wanted. Can you tell us that story? Because it's really enlightening.

Zahra: Yes. I don't know that I had a purpose before I actually sat down and I worked on articulating it. I think for a big chunk of my life, I was pretty lost. I was doing what I thought I was supposed to do and what other people told me. I never really got to true success until I defined what that purpose is. I'm both a refugee and an immigrant. I was a refugee when we left the war in Uganda and went to Yemen. I was an immigrant when I left the war in Yemen and came to Canada.

In that time, I just wasn't sure what I was meant to do, what I was supposed to do, how to go about life, and my sense of purpose. I didn't even know what having a sense of purpose honestly quite meant. Then I took the tools that we use at a really low time in my life when I was going through a lot of bad things. If you're from Calgary, you'll know that when the recession happens and it's this very cyclical sort of environment, it affects you. Between that, getting a divorce, a whole bunch of different things, I was just not at a good place. I took the tools that we use to build a brand.

For my first company, it was an ad agency. When we're helping a company design their purpose and their values and their brand and how they operate, we usually start with a creative brief. That creative brief can be pretty powerful because it fully understands what this brand is supposed to be, what it does, what are its drawbacks, who's its competition, what's its purpose, how does it work, what does it look like on a shelf, and all of that. Once we understand this brand is then when we are able to move forward and design it. I took that tool, and I built a purpose for myself.

Honestly, in the last 15 years, that purpose hasn't changed much, but it also helped propel me to what I am doing today.

Erin: You have said that the things that you adhere to in terms of your purpose, like integrity, honesty, experience, and expertise, those are non-negotiables. They're totally who you are and what you wanted yourself to present, what you wanted you to present to the world. How do you translate that into what a company should also have for brands? How does that translate? Your own, because you're a company, so how do you translate that into what others can also see and believe and be?

Zahra: Yes. Actually, those were for my company when I was building purpose for my company and we were trying-- because clients would ask us what ours was as we were building theirs. We grew by flying by the seat of our pants. We didn't actually have time to stop and do that. We realized that we had to do that as a company. As we were looking at that and trying to figure it out and we had these big post-it notes on the wall and we were writing things down like integrity and honesty and excellence and all of that and nothing, it didn't feel right. It was weird because we kept crossing it off and it was like, why does that-- That sounds like a good purpose to have.

We realized that those things are set in stone. If you don't have integrity, then get out of business. If you don't value excellence, then it's not going to work. That was the big driver is understanding like, "Okay, so those things are table stakes. They're set in stone. They're non-negotiables. If we don't have these things, we shouldn't be in business because those are the cornerstones of doing things the right way." When we started looking at our purpose and our values as an organization, we started looking at how we wanted to live our lives, what we wanted to leave behind, what we wanted to touch, how we wanted to operate, how we wanted to act, how we wanted people to view us.

That's how we ended up with the set of values that we wrote down. Interestingly enough, those values have followed me now into my third startup, and they're the same things that I wanted then I want now. I realized that your personal values, your personal purpose has to align, especially as an entrepreneur, has to align like this, completely and totally with your company and your corporate values. Otherwise, you won't be true to them.

Erin: Right. Not just a slogan or something on a coffee mug, but something that becomes part of your DNA. Obviously, if you're in your third incarnation, then it certainly is. Now, question for you here, Zahra, is should a purpose differ from a mission or a vision and how do they work together if they do differ?

Zahra: Yes, so like I said, a purpose is the explanation of your motivation. Your reason for being. A mission statement is a definition of your business. What are you in business? What do you do? Who do you serve? What are your objectives? What is your approach to achieving those objectives? Purpose is different. With a lot of companies, you find that whether it's your values, your mission, your purpose, they sort of belong in the HR department, and again, become words on a wall. They don't live and breathe throughout every silo that-- and we all know that every organization is quite siloed.

Your purpose should live and breathe through your entire organization. How you do billing, how you do legal, what you volunteer for, what organizations you give for, what you attend, what you do, and especially as an entrepreneur. You have to live and breathe it at every touch point. If this part of your company does not align, it breaks that chain.

Erin: Okay, you came up with this list of words, a long list of words. I love your circle the 20 thing. Could you explain that exercise to us? Because I get a feeling we're going to be doing this when we're done, those of us watching and listening today, Zahra. You're really putting yourself on the line with this one and that's brave and it makes you vulnerable. I think that's why it works. Go ahead and explain that for us, will you?

Zahra: Happily, however, I didn't totally put myself on the line because I made it anonymous, because I didn't really want to know what people thought of me. What I did when I was working on my creative brief and my personal values and purpose is I put together 200 words on a piece of paper, and I just circled just instinctively and they were good and bad words. things that maybe were flattering, some things that weren't as flattering.

I just circled the 20 words that I thought that applied to me. Then I gave that piece of paper to a lot of people in my world, everybody from clients to staff to friends and asked them what they thought. I made it anonymous because I wanted them to be comfortable telling me what they thought. Then I also wanted to not really know what people thought.

Erin: It's like a focus group. Nobody likes those.

Zahra: For sure. I compared everything, and it was really interesting to see how I viewed myself versus how other people viewed me. There was a lot of similarities but there were a few differences. Where I thought I was assertive, a lot of people thought I was stubborn and bossy, That's interesting. Because maybe I'm not projecting myself the right way. I had to really think about that. It's like, this is what they're seeing. Why are they seeing that? How can I change that to them seeing me as being assertive?

It was a very helpful and difficult exercise in understanding yourself and what you put out there. Because that's a huge part of, for all of us, especially entrepreneurs, again, your brand is you. What you put out there in the world for people to see how they interact with you, who they believe you are, is such a huge part of whether they believe in your work and your product or not.

That was a really big-- Before I did this exercise, before I started exploring this creative brief and this brand, that self-help, self-motivation stuff belonged in this kumbaya world that didn't really apply to me. Because as soon as I thought something was wrong with me, that meant something was wrong with me. I just wasn't going to think that anything was wrong with me.

Erin: That perception is their reality, as much as you go, no, that's not me at all. Okay, where did you get the 200 words from?

Zahra: I Googled. I sat down. I wrote descriptive words. I just tried to put together words that I knew. Good words, bad words, like it's just very easy to do that part. Maybe there was some bias too in that exercise for myself because I know what words I wanted to see on there and stuff like that. That's why I made it such a big list of words so that I covered so many different things.

Erin: Yes, well, you said anonymous, but still, I do think it was vulnerable of you to open the doors to what people thought of you because most of us, a lot of us don't want to know. It worked for you. It was an eye-opener. You have a few other tests that you really like. There's, for example, the Enneagram.

Zahra: Yes, I love the Enneagram personality test. Again, it was a moment of conflict with a business partner. We decided to do the Enneagram personality test because we did not see eye to eye, and we did not understand how the other person works. We were so polar opposites in personality. We did this Enneagram personality test as part of our, just, trying to fix the relationship. We brought in a coach, and they did the Enneagram personality test. It was fascinating because not only do we all have certain personality definitions and traits.

For me, my personality is I want to try everything and see what sticks to the wall. On the bad side, yes, I'm the one with all the big ideas, but then I'm never around to pick up the pieces because I'm not the detail-oriented person. Whereas my partner was down in the weeds in this detail stuff. She would never do anything unless it was tried, tested, true. She knew exactly how it would work. We frustrated each other to a enormous degree. It was really powerful to understand. The Enneagram not only tells you how you work with people, how people should work with you, personality things, it tells you what your wings are.

If you're in a bad place, you might lean more into this direction of being an overprotective bully, for example, or in this direction of being too accommodating because you really wanted to work. You really just understand. It's all part of this growth journey that I think a lot of us just don't take on because like you said, it's difficult. It's scary. A lot of times you don't know what you're going to find on the other side of that research. It really helps. It helps understand what you want, how you're going to do it.

It helped me understand what I wanted to do with my life. I'll tell you what my purpose statement was that I wrote 15 years ago. This just rang true to me at the time. It wasn't a goal that was money-oriented or career-oriented, but what I wrote down is I will spend the rest of my life living stories and experiences that will change perspectives, outcomes, and hearts. That was really important to me because then I was a marketer. That was my first company phase. I was a marketer. What we did was we sold things to people.

We convinced them to buy what we wanted them to buy, to go where we wanted them to go. That was part of my DNA. I wanted to have experiences. I had come off a part of my life where I didn't have the freedom to do what I wanted to do. Now all of a sudden, I did, and I wanted to do everything. I wanted to change hearts because giving back is such a huge part of who I am. I wanted people to care more.

I wanted them to see other people and take in how they can change their lives. I wanted to change people's outcomes. I wanted to help people in poverty and get them out of that situation into a different place. These were all things that were important to me that meant a lot to me. I started working on that and I started speaking, for example, I've spoken to audiences around the world, two to 5,000 people at a time. I've spoken at the UN, at Canada's Most Powerful Women Conference, at a conference in Istanbul, for example, that had 2,500 entrepreneurs from around the world.

That became a big part of what I did. I set myself up to a place where I became an influencer, and I got to sit at tables where big decisions were made. I was the Canadian ambassador for UNICEF for four years. I was on the National Canadian Board of Directors for Make-A-Wish Foundation. Those were all things that I cared about. The first trip I took with my kids after my divorce was, we went with Homes of Hope and we build homes in Tijuana for families.

All of that led into this purpose statement that I had put out. It all continues to fit because everything I do, I measure it against that. Does this feel right to me? Which has led to my third company. I started doing stuff because I wanted to have experiences. I did everything from learning how to ride a motorcycle to jumping out of a plane, I am terrified of heights, to doing big and small things that were new.

Erin: Just incredible. That clarity really did just open up everything for you. You talk about being at the table where big decisions are made, but these are things, too, that can translate so beautifully to the kitchen table, too, because you have imbued your children, not only with your brilliance and everything that you are and have proven, not only in business, but in life and the obstacles that you have surmounted. The fact that you are giving examples of giving back and charity and living that.

I think this is a message, your message, your story is one that applies not only in business, but around the kitchen table. I think you're just resonating so much with so many people today as well. Thanks for this, but we're not done. Because, Zahra, I want to ask you, how could a well-executed sense of purpose help boost your reputation or maybe even shift misconceptions about you or your business? It's fine to have these ideas of what your purpose, what your mission, what they are going to be, but you got to go get it out there, right?

Zahra: Yes, absolutely. Before you get it out there though, it has to be true. It has to be true to who you are. It has to be true to what you do. For example, if we are talking real estate, and everybody wants to sell houses to people and a lot of those mission, purpose, value statements are going to be the same, but what is your niche? What sets you apart from other people? What is it that you truly believe in and you want to do?

An example could be somebody who wants to help seniors transition into smaller homes, which is exactly where I am right now. I want a one-story forever home that I never have to move out of, hopefully. I don't want to be moving when I'm in my 70s, and trying to figure it out. If there is somebody that has decided that's going to be where they want to live, and that's the client that they want, so now they've found a niche market.

If you do a good job, if you live by your sense of purpose, if you actually do that properly, every person that you work with is going to recommend you to other people. That means what organizations do you volunteer for, like I said earlier, what organizations do you give to? What events do you go to? Who do you socialize with? All of that needs to fit, and it needs to be real, because if it's not real, if you are acting and if you've decided that this is going to be what you want to do, but it's not a part of you, then it's not going to be believable.

I really think that understanding yourself and what you want to do in life is a huge part of your success story. It really is because if you are truly hungry for that thing, if you are truly inspired by that thing, if you are truly motivated to do that thing, then it all becomes real. You work harder. You work faster. You innovate better, and it all fits.

Erin: Yes, and you stop being a boat against the current. It just flows. That authenticity allows you to flow. What do businesses or entrepreneurs need to consider when they're defining and articulating a purpose?

Zahra: There's this really, really interesting Japanese concept that I really do love. It's called ikigai. It means your reason for being, and your ikigai is at the center of what you love, what the world needs from you, what you can be paid for, and what you are good at. Meaning your passion, your mission, your vocation, and your profession. Right at the center of those four things is your ikigai. I absolutely love that. I discovered that when I was working on my own purpose because it's easy to say, "Well, I'm really passionate about this thing. I love it, but it's not what I'm good at. It's not my actual vocation." I'm really passionate about saving lives, but I'm not a doctor. How am I going to do that?

What you're passionate about is only one piece of the puzzle. What your mission is in life, is the other piece of the puzzle. What the world needs. Your vocation is what you can be paid for. Your profession is what you are good at, and you take all of those and you put them together, and at the center of that is your purpose, and so great-- Look it up. It's ikigai. It's a great way to look at yourself and your life, and what you want, and how all of those pieces fit.

Because like I said, if it's not real, if it's not believable, if you're not actually good at that thing, you're not going-- Maybe you can get better at that thing. Maybe you can educate yourself and do that, but maybe you can't because your circumstances in life are not going to allow you to go deep enough into understanding how to get good at that thing in order to do it well. At the center of all of that, I think is your sense of purpose. Not just me, ikigai is the one that coined that.

Erin: I love that. I just love it. It just sums it up so perfectly. I know you've said you don't like to give advice, but I'm going to go ahead and ask you anyway and see if we can get something out of you here. What are some authentic tactical ways to weave a sense of purpose through every facet of your business? Do you have any that you can share or some feedback, or how do you operate there?

Zahra: I'm a member of Entrepreneurs' Organization. One of the things we are told is not to give advice to our foreign members. You can share an experience or a story as opposed to giving advice. If I were to say three things that really make a difference is clarity. What I've talked about is just understanding yourself, understanding what you do, why you do it, who you are, how you operate, and all of those things. That's one.

Pride is another one. Having pride in yourself, having that confidence and that courage and that understanding and that resilience and resilience doesn't come from nothing. We are not born with or without resilience. We earn it. We gain it, and we gain it by doing difficult things, by stepping out of our comfort zone. The more we do that, the more we step out of our comfort zone, the more we do difficult things like me jumping out of a plane is the things that help you build that resilience, and that resilience is so closely tied with courage and belief in yourself and ability.

Having that sense of pride in yourself and finding that is really important, I think. As women, we are taught not-- It seems boastful to talk about yourself in a certain way or to take ownership of say, "Yes, I did that." As opposed to, "It was a team effort." Be proud of who you are, what you've done, how you've got here, and then be motivated. Motivation is not easy to come by. Find that thing that you are really passionate about and you really want is really important because if you find that, then you're more motivated to do it. Motivation only works if your environment works, like if your psychological state, the environment, the people around you, the support system that you have, and your past experiences.

Those things come together in a perfect place, and you can tap into that motivation. Find that, find that motivation, find that thing that makes you want to do something.

Erin: The challenges that you faced, Zahra, when you came to Canada were far from a perfect place from which to start. Yes, confidence and perseverance had to be in your tool belt, but how did they lead you to such a successful career in business when you were first starting out and having to navigate life in a new country?

Zahra: Great question. I'm not entirely sure I know how to answer that. Only because a lot of it happened. A lot of it happened. I knocked on a million doors, and I was a nobody immigrant from nowhere. I was knocking on doors, because like when I came, I had three children. I had a high school degree. I didn't even know what the word entrepreneur meant at the time. I was so far behind everybody else. I was 26 years old, like I said, three kids, and didn't know anything about anything.

Just growing up where I am because of poverty of the country and the war and everything else. There's these big gaps in my knowledge of even popular culture and things like that. I knocked on doors. I asked people out for coffee. I asked them to teach me things that I didn't know and nobody ever said no. People are kind. People are helpful. That is, I think, our first approach for the majority of people. The doors that I knocked on, the people that taught me things ended up becoming my friends, my clients, my motivators, my fan club, and they helped cheer me on and take me to places that I might not have got to on my own.

I know that I put myself in places where I was lucky enough to have those resources. A lot of it, I think, happens with life. You have to capitalize on it. You have to move forward. My very first award was Top 40 Under 40. A client of mine, who was also a friend, Andrea, put my name in the hat. I didn't even know about the Top 40 Under 40 award. I was busy trying to build a company. I wasn't even thinking about it. I was early, first year in business sort of thing.

I won that, and with that came a lot of accolades and a lot of new clients and it grew from there. Again, this is advice that I don't like to give, but put yourself in rooms where things are happening. Volunteer, get involved in community, join a sports team. One of my very first things that I did when I came to Calgary because girls where I come from are not allowed gym class, and I don't think I even ran as a kid. Jim Button in Calgary started this thing where you just went and played a sport every week and it was 40 girls, 40 guys and then everybody got together at the end of the night for a drink.

The first time I went every game, like every weekend, every week we would do basketball or hockey or floor hockey, portaging and every week I'd be the one who put my hand up and said, "I've never done that before." I met the best people and some of them are still-- they play such a huge part in my life, especially Jim Button. A lot of that is the things that have made a difference. I can pinpoint decisions that I made to do things that weren't success-related that led to my biggest successes.

Erin: Talking about the purpose, does that change? Our perspective at 20 is so different from our perspective at 40 and at 60 and on and on, just who we think is old for one thing. Does your perspective need to be recalibrated as you go along or what is your opinion on that?

Zahra: 1,000%, 1,000%. What I wanted 10 years ago is not what I wanted 20 years ago is not what I wanted when I was a kid is in some cases not what I want today. We change, our circumstances change. There was a point where I just really wanted to go to Hong Kong. I don't know why I was fascinated by my visit there and the culture there and the people that I met there and the best of the best of the expat community. I just wanted to live in Hong Kong, but I'm an only child. My father was not well. It didn't make sense for me to do that. That dream had to be put aside, thankfully, because what ended up happening was much better.

Things change. Like I said, your environment, things that happened to you, your circumstances, guide different things, different moments in your life. You might go down a path that you never expected and find a pot of gold at the end of that rainbow. Yes, I revisit my purpose, my creative brief every year. Some things have not changed. I really haven't changed my purpose statement because I like it. It fits me, but other things have changed. Yes, absolutely. You have to revisit.

Erin: Like a tune-up every year. That's fascinating. Okay. What is or what are some stories you want to tell as an 80-year-old?

Zahra: At the risk of sounding very corny, what's important to me is doing good in this world, people who do good in this world. I'm very choosy about what I let into my life at this stage, about who I let into my life at this stage. I have kids that live all over the world, and I spend a lot of time going to see them. I have a limited amount of time outside of my business and volunteering for things that are important to me, of who I want to hang out with, what I want to do. I'm very choosy. I'm choosy about what influence I want to have, who I want to let into my life, what boards and charities I want to be involved in, what I want my business life to look like.

My new company is called Skillit, and it's an experiential company. It's where we take a family on an experience, but they learn something every single time. It's very experiential, but there are soft and hard skills that you come away with at every interaction. For example, we'll take a family out into the desert with no food, and they have to dig for water, forage for food, learn about medicinal herbs with a guide, of course, learn about medicinal herbs and how to build a lean-to.

Erin: Is there room service? No, I'm kidding. You almost had me there, Zahra.

Zahra: They're going to build a solar oven and cook their own food. Can you see how that brings together everything in my world? Because number one, it's experience-based. Number two, it's very associated with people and changing lives and influencing, making their lives better by teaching them things. For every skill we sell, we donate one to a young person in need. That's my give back, and so it just, all the pieces fit, and that's what I want to give my time to. That's the story I want to tell.

Erin: Beautiful. Thank you so, so much for sharing some of your story here today. We will definitely tell people more about that as we say goodbye to you. Zahra, we are just so grateful. As we wrap up today, are there any like three things you want people to take away from our discussion today? You've given us so much.

Zahra: I think I'm going to go back to the three things I said earlier, pride in yourself, clarity in what you have to do, and motivation to do it.

Erin: Wow. We've got all of that, especially the motivation after talking with you today, Zahra, thank you so much. We cannot wait to find out what's next for you, including Skillit. No more jumping out of perfectly operating planes, okay? Thank you.

Zahra: No, that was a one-and-done.

Erin: One-and-done. Good for you. Thank you so much.

Zahra: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Really appreciate it.

Erin: Wasn't she amazing? You know what? We only began to skim the surface of her own personal story. If you want more inspiration from Zahra, her book is called What It Takes to Live and Lead with Purpose, Laughter, and Strength. It details her journey and how it all began. You can find details on that in our show notes. We will also link you to Ikigai so you know what it is and where to find it, and also the enneagramtest.com. It's all fascinating. If you liked this episode of REAL TIME, we invite you to explore our other episodes. Don't forget to rate or review the show. We always, always appreciate it. I'm your host Erin Davis. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA.

Production is courtesy of Alphabet® Creative with technical support from Rob Whitehead. Thanks so much for joining us, and we'll see you again next time on REAL TIME.

View Details

Anthony Morgan is an award-winning science communicator. He’s also a PhD researcher and startup founder who’s hosted dozens of TV shows, including the Discovery Channel’s Daily Planet and CBC’s The Nature of Things with Sarika Cullis-Suzuki.

He’s the mastermind behind Freestyle Socials, a live, hilarious game designed to “undivide” people by blurring the lines we draw between one another.

On this episode of REAL TIME, Anthony shares science-based insight to help REALTORS® become better problem solvers in the face of a disagreement.

Watch the experiment Anthony describes as a “magic trick”– Daniel Simons’ selective attention test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo

Transcript

Erin Davis: Working together to undivide us, what does it mean, and how can it help you in business and beyond? Anthony Morgan, a science communicator, and co-host of CBC's The Nature of Things, has made it his mission. I personally want to thank Anthony for inspiring my approach to a recent lost luggage situation. We'll get to that a little later on. I'm Erin Davis, and welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS®, brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association. Welcome, Anthony.

Anthony Morgan: Thanks so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Erin: We're excited too. For that matter, though, I could say welcome back because, at CREA PAC Days 2023, you led REALTORS® through a fascinating game called Freestyle Socials. For those of us not lucky enough to have seen it in person, can you explain the concept and just why this kind of exercise is so important?

Anthony: Sure. A Freestyle Social is a game. It's sort of a live social experiment. Its goal is to find ways to rethink disagreements so that we can have them more productively. It's supposed to be a game where disagreements make us laugh instead of losing faith in humanity.

Erin: Okay, I get that. This is something that sort of developed while you were getting your master's, right? Tell us how this all came to be.

Anthony: Yes, that's right. I was doing my master's in science communication up in Sudbury, and they had these events that they called science cafes. There were these amazing events. We would show up at a pub and they would ask these questions at the intersection of science and society. Things like, I don't know, should we bring back the woolly mammoth, which is technically possible, by the way. Side note, really cool.

They would convene this panel of experts at the front of the room to talk about it, to dissect it, and figure out the pros and cons for the benefit of an audience who was watching. They were really fascinating. I noticed as I was sitting and watching these things that I really wanted to be able to chime in and throw a thought in or two myself and the people around me. At that point in my career, I'd been working at the Ontario Science Centre here in Toronto for probably 8, 10 years, something like that. If you work at a place like that, the bread and butter of organizations like that is interactive. How do you make these experiences as interactive and fun as you possibly can?

That's what I spent my time thinking about. How can I make this a more interactive experience? We thought, "Well, we'll give it a shot." We showed up at a pub in Toronto. We put tape down the middle of the floor to divide the room. Then we would ask these questions. I call them spark questions, questions at the intersection of society. Should we erase bad memories? Should we design our kids' DNA? Should we pee in the shower?

There was a real range as far as the seriousness of them goes. We wanted some of it to be playful and fun. Then we would tell our audience, "Listen, you've got 10 seconds. What does your gut tell you? You've got to pick a side." Everyone's always like, "Oh, what do I do?" They're always surprised at what side their friends pick. "Oh, you pee in the shower, what's wrong with you?" That kind of thing. Then we would put a microphone in the middle of the floor. Each half of the room gets to explain to the other half why-- what are you doing on that side of the room? You should come over here with us.

The only rule of the game is that if you hear an idea from the other side that surprises you or makes you laugh, you should switch sides. That's because we're really trying to help society rethink how we do these disagreements. At the moment, we're having these debates that are really unproductive. We're just talking past each other. It turns into shedding matches. We've all been at that holiday event with our family where that uncle says that thing that makes everybody really tense in the room.

We're trying to help that. The problem with those kinds of disagreements is that your goal, you treat them like a debate, where your goal is to have your side sort of win. In this game, the goal is to hear as many surprising, hilarious, new perspectives as we possibly can.

Erin: To undivide us, then, ultimately.

Anthony: Exactly, yes. We know from part of my research that we are increasingly divided, what researchers call sorted. It means that if I know how you feel about, let's say, climate change or gun control, then it's increasingly the case that I know how you feel about many other issues. They're being sorted into left and right. I'm trying to help us remember that the lines that we've drawn between ourselves, those lines are a lot blurrier than we realize.

On any given issue, you might have a difference of opinion with somebody, but what we try to do with these games is we don't just ask one question. It's not just Kansas City Chiefs or 49ers. We ask many. You start to recognize that across many games, I might disagree with you on the Chiefs-49ers, but I agree with you about Taylor Swift should have won the Grammy. Maybe I like cake, and you like pie. You start to see that we're really more alike than we are different.

Erin: Okay, all right. We have to go back to a question that you raised there. I will give you a hint. It's not the woolly mammoth. It's not the DNA for your children. You know what the question is because you say you've asked this question more in your life than, how are you?

Anthony: That's right. Yes, I've asked it an absurd number of times. Should we pee in the shower? It's maybe my favorite question of all time because it's really great for this game. It's the kind of question that you cannot answer while taking yourself seriously. I just love that because in a lot of these discussions, they don't go well precisely because we do take ourselves far too seriously.

We believe that we are the same thing as the answer that we give. That answer is our identity. People, when they're answering a question like, should we pee in the shower, they don't feel that way. They don't feel like this is who I am, what I do in the shower. For the record, if you have roommates or friends or to any of your listeners, if you have somebody else who lives in your home and they say that they do not pee in the shower, I've asked this question well over 6,000, 8,000 times at this point. I'd say 80% of people say, yes, we should pee in the shower. If you think you have a roommate who doesn't pee in the shower, you probably have a roommate who thinks we should pee in the shower.

Erin: First off, thank you for that thought-provoking question and ensuring that we all think of Anthony Morgan in the shower tomorrow. Okay, that didn't sound right, but you know what I mean. Anthony, how does it work on a scientific level?

Anthony: Yes, well, as I say, we are increasingly sorted. We know that we're more and more divided into left and right, black or white. Those kinds of thinking can be really dangerous because when you align more and more of your identities into this one-- we call them mega identities, then it becomes easier and easier to see people on the other side as completely different from me, maybe even bad, maybe even evil, maybe even worthy of my disgust and my disdain and my, in some cases, aggression.

That's a really dark pathway that we really want to avoid heading down. I think a lot of people sense that it's the pathway we're heading on, but we're not really sure how we can claw ourselves back from that. This game is designed to help because it helps us to recognize that, well, even though people might be aligned on a few of these beliefs, then on a whole bunch of other ones, they're not aligned. They see things the way that I see them.

One principle that you really have to understand, this is maybe the most important thing I've learned in my 20 years as a science communicator, is that before people care what you believe, they have to believe that you care. I'll say it again because it's really important. Before people care what you believe, they have to believe that you care. We know that from the research, that if people dismiss something that I perceive as a real threat to myself, my community, anybody that I care about, if I feel like you're dismissing that threat, then I'm very likely to what's called morally condemn you, to see you as just a bad person, and then I'm likely to dehumanize you.

We know that from really surprising studies where, I don't know if you're familiar with the Ascent of Man, that very famous depiction of evolution that goes from chimpanzee to slightly more evolved and then all the way it's upright. You can present people with a picture like that and then ask them how they think about people who reject threats that you perceive as real. They consistently put them as slightly less than human. The more important the threat is, the more we perceive them as less than human. That's a really surprising and scary outcome. The goal really is to start to rehumanize each other and remember that we really are all in the same boat together. We really are all in this together.

Erin: Yes.

Anthony: It's very easy to try to cast people who are on the other side of the issue, whatever side of the issue you're on, as, again, completely different from you. Because they're not perceiving the threat that you are, it's easy to morally condemn them. We really are all on the same team in this.

We humans, I am an optimist about humanity because we are the most cooperative species in the history of evolution, as far as we know. We are able to cooperate in ways that have never-- we got to the moon. We've done some amazing things. I want to make sure that we strengthen that superpower as much as we possibly can. To me, the key is to just recognize that we're more alike than we're dis-alike.

Erin: Yes, you mentioned the moon. Then there are some people who think it didn't really happen. Yet you maintain your optimism. I think that that's really admirable, Anthony.

Anthony: I really am optimistic because what we've seen across time, across history, is that we have found more and more ways to cooperate across time at bigger and bigger scales to the collective good of everybody. It's easy right now to remember that there are some wars on. Those are very dispiriting. There are some conflicts. I don't want to take away from the weight of those realities. I don't want it to overshadow, at the same time, the greater reality, that is, the UN set a bunch of these millennium goals.

They said, "By 2025, we want to cut poverty in half." They blew those goals out of the water. We achieved that in way faster a time frame than we ever anticipated we would. Those kinds of trends are true across a whole host of dimensions that we measure to capture what human well-being-- how we're doing as far as promoting human well-being goes. I'm not an optimist. I'm a scientist. The science says we should be optimistic.

Erin: I love that. Thank you. I feel better already. I hope everyone watching and listening does, too, Anthony. Now, a lot of your work aims to help people to have better conversation around polarizing issues. What are some effective strategies for fostering meaningful conversations when people are divided?

Anthony: Yes, well, I would say the number one thing to do is to lean into curiosity. That's going to be a tough thing for us to do, but it's really an important thing for us to do. There's an experiment that taught me this. It's my favorite experiment of all time. It was something that I experienced when I was in first-year university, and I was taking a psychology class. It was this video that my prof put on, and he said, "Hey, I know something about how you see the world better than you do." Everybody in the classroom, our eyebrows go up.

He's just meeting us. How can he know anything about how we see the world? He said, "Well, I'm going to prove it with this video." It was a video by a researcher called Daniel Simons. I really want to encourage your viewers, you can find it on YouTube. It's amazing. It fundamentally changed the way that I see the world. It's almost like watching a magic trick.

You watch this video, and there are two teams of people, one wearing a bunch of white T-shirts, and then the other team is wearing black T-shirts, and they're passing this basketball between themselves. Your only job in that video is to count the number of times the players in white pass the ball between themselves. Now, I don't want to spoil the end of that video because, again, it's really cool. It's like one of those M. Night Shyamalan movies. If I tell you the ending, you're not going to be surprised. I want you to experience it.

What I learned from that video was that we all have blind spots in our thinking that are, by definition, invisible to us. We don't know that they're there. The best way to find your blind spots is by talking to people who see things differently than you. Those blind spots, they exist because-- your brain is a really wonderful thing. When you set a goal, you say, "I want to achieve this thing," your brain says, "Great, I'm going to help you out. I'm going to ignore all the other stuff that's not important for your goal."

That means that you miss really big chunks of reality. Because we all have these different goals, your goal produces blind spots for you. My goals produce blind spots for me. By talking to each other, we can help each other spot them. If you want to have better disagreements, if you come across somebody who believes we didn't land on the moon or that the Earth is flat, it's counterintuitive, but the way in is curiosity, to ask them questions about how they see the world because it's a really good way to help other people find the blind spots in their thinking as well.

Erin: Okay. How might these strategies, and you've given some excellent examples here, how might they translate into a business setting? When you're in the thick of a disagreement with someone, how to acknowledge their perspective, even if you don't agree or have you just given us, the big hint is to get curious about it?

Anthony: I would say that the thing that it really does is related to this big fancy model that psychologists have. It's called the biopsychosocial model. Scientists are really amazing, but they are terrible at naming things. They make really complicated names for everything. I'm going to give you a simple version of it. We'll start by imagining that you're you. You with me so far?

Erin: I am.

Anthony: Great. Imagine that you're pursuing a goal, all right? Maybe you want to lock down a deal with a client. Maybe you want to buy a new car. Maybe you want to improve your relationship. Whatever your goal is, you're moving towards it, and then you encounter an obstacle to that goal. Maybe you found out that your partner doesn't love the same kind of movies you do. Maybe you found out that your client has an asking price that's much higher than you were comfortable with.

Now the question is, how do you respond? The answer is, it turns out, it depends on two variables. The first is your perception of the size of that obstacle. Let's say I want to join the NBA, but I'm only 5'2". My perception of the size of that obstacle is, well, I'm only 5'2". You probably need to be a fair bit taller than that to join the NBA. It's unlikely for me to be a reality. That's the first variable. What's the perception of the size of the obstacle?

The second variable is your perception of the resources you have available to you to solve the problem. In other words, I want to join the NBA, I'm too short, but I've got Elon Musk levels of wealth, so I can invest in a surgery to grow the length of my legs. I've got enough resources to help make sure that I can make it into the NBA. The way we react depends on the gap between your perception of the size of the obstacle and your perception of the resources. If there's a gap, then you fall into what's called-- I call it the danger zone, the threat zone, where you're less creative, you're less empathetic, you're less open-minded. We're the worst version of ourselves.

What do you do if you're in that place? You can either change your perception of the size of the obstacle. You can do that by changing what your goal is. Maybe I'm not going to go for the NBA, maybe I'll go for-- I'll play basketball in like a call-up league. I can play with some buddies. Or you can change your perception of your resources available to you. Maybe you're going to have LeBron James train you to join the NBA. Those two things can shrink the gap between the obstacle and the resources and put you in what I call the challenge zone.

We love that feeling. We live for that feeling. It's the feeling that you have when you're in the zone or you're in the pockets, or you can start to think more creatively, you're more empathetic, you're more open-minded. It's when you're in that flow state. You're the best version of yourself. When you lean into curiosity with somebody who's stuck in their way of thinking, it puts them into that challenge mindset. They don't feel that their identity is threatened. They don't feel like you're trying to attack them. They feel like they get to be a teacher to you.

That puts them in this really calm mindset where they're able to be more open to new ideas and more ironically receptive to ideas from you. Most of our intuition is if you hear somebody say the earth is flat, our intuition says I got to tell them all the reasons that the earth is not flat, but what we know from the research is if you lean into curiosity and say, "How did you come to that idea?" that really is the key to unlocking new ways of thinking about the world.

Erin: I love that. As for me, if I wanted to be in the NBA, your advice might be, "Okay, that's not going to happen, but look over here, there's the WNBA. Let's look at that." You can shift the focus too, rather than just pointing at one particular goal.

Anthony: Exactly. It comes back to what we were talking about before, that our goals shape the blind spots in our thinking, they create them. When you identify those blind spots, you can actually change what's possible. If I'm trying to secure a deal with a client to make sure that we get a certain number for an asking price and they're just not meeting it, then what I can do is start to think about, "Well, how can I rethink my goal? Maybe the goal isn't to get this asking price. Maybe I'll shift the goal to one that's more collaborative." I'm trying to figure out how I can get the best deal I can for me and my client.

They'll feel that you care and they know that you need to-- before they care what you believe, they have to believe what you care, and it puts them in that challenge mindset. Suddenly, a world of possibilities opens up and you're likely to find a solution that you didn't even know was there.

Erin: Okay. How much of a role does fear play when it comes to a collaboration, a conversation, or a negotiation, Anthony?

Anthony: I would say that really depends on how big a challenge you imagine, whatever your goal, the obstacle to your goal is. I guess for people in your community, like the kinds of problems you guys are generally engaged with is how do I make sure that you're networking properly and building good relationships with our clients? Maybe you've heard that this particular client is very difficult to work with.

Those kinds of rumors can trigger fear in you, right? "Oh, well, this is going to be a real nightmare for me. Not only is this relationship going to be a difficult one, but they're going to spread rumors about me as a real estate agent and that's going to hurt my business and my bottom line." Those kinds of fears, well, that's when fears can be really stoked. Again, I would say that the solution in those cases is to just notice what's happening in your body. Notice that you're in fear and figure out how you can change your goal to shrink the size of the obstacle and increase your perception of the resources so that you're like, "You know what? The goal I had in mind was kind of scary, but this new one is something I can do." Then again, possibilities, they start opening up.

Erin: Pause, breathe, refocus.

Anthony: It's a very novice day. It's a little bit hippie-ish, but the science says that it actually works. The neuroscience is there to back it up.

Erin: How does body language play a role in all of this?

Anthony: Yes. I would say that your body language is important insofar as it lets you-- Yes, I see you're crossing your arms.

Erin: No good.

Anthony: Those kinds of things can be indicators that you need to notice what your goals are. For each of us, we all have different kinds of fear triggers and different kinds of things that make us feel a little bit afraid. It's really good, ideally, not necessarily in the moment when you're negotiating with a client, but in your general life to think about how do I know when I am in fear or when I am worried about something. What are the indicators in my body that tell me that? Maybe your breathing increases or maybe your palms get a little bit sweaty, or maybe your armpits sweat a little bit. Maybe you've got a habit of playing with your hair or biting your lip when you're nervous.

There's all kinds of things. If you can start to notice those little indicators, then when you're in those spaces, when you're in those places where you're a bit afraid, you can say, "Oh, I notice I'm a little bit afraid. Let me check in and figure out what my goals are right now. Can I shift those goals to bring me into that challenge mindset, to bring me to that place where I know there are some possibilities and opportunities here that I didn't realize existed because of the way that I was looking at things?"

Erin: I see the guitar in your background. For those of you who are listening, it's a beautiful six-string and it's blue. I know you're a guitarist and I also know you're a Beatles fan because we do our research. Let's talk about come together and the whole idea of you and me against the world and not being adversaries, but actually coming together against a common goal. I think this is one of the absolute gems of all of your wisdom, Anthony, if you want to expand and expound for us.

Anthony: Yes. No. As I said before, I really am an optimist. I believe that human beings are the most cooperative species that we've ever seen on the face of this planet and we evolve to be that. It's really easy to believe that nice guys finish last and that it's a really Machiavellian world out there where it's shark eat shark, but humans are by nature, we're really much, much more designed to cooperate with each other, to be interested in each other's well-being. It's when we feel our happiest, the most meaning in our lives at our best. I just got married, and-- well, thank you. I'm very excited.

Erin: Congratulations.

Anthony: Thank you very much. We're looking at starting a family and having kids. At one level, the idea of having kids is kind of a nightmare. Objectively, kids are really expensive. They break all your stuff. They never say thank you. They only think of themselves. If you had a roommate like that, you're getting out of here. You cannot live here anymore. Yet, if you ask any parent, would you die for your kids? They say, "Oh, in a heartbeat," because we think the things that would make us happy are having lots of money or fast cars, or whatever.

The things that make us really, truly, genuinely happy, the things that genuinely fill us with meaning are finding ways to serve others. That's built into our DNA. I guess I'm an optimist because I know that that is true. Eventually, we all, not all of us, if we're wise, we recognize that, and we move towards that. I know that seeing people do that is contagious. We start to replicate what we see others do, that brings a sense of meaning.

I'm just really optimistic about humans, and there's a story maybe I could tell about why I know that compassion and leaning into that kind of stuff is really valuable. I was moving about a year and a half ago. I live in Toronto, so your listeners will know what the Toronto real estate market looks like. It's not necessarily an easy one to navigate. It's one where I had a short time to move. I had about a day and a half notice because I was moving from one apartment to another, and I had to rent a U-Haul.

I rented the U-Haul. I got there on the day to pick it up. I spoke to the lady at the counter, and I asked her, "Hey, is it possible, by any chance, that I could have the vehicle for longer than I reserved on the website? I have a limited time, and it'd just be helping me out." She said, "No, and because you asked that, now I can't rent you the vehicle."

Erin: What? Why?

Anthony: Yes. I was floored. I thought I must have misheard. This can't be true. I said, "I don't understand. Is this some kind of U-Haul policy?" She said, "No, I don't think you'll bring it back." I was shaking. I was so angry that this woman just saw my face, decided to judge me on nothing more superficial than what I was wearing, what I was-- I don't know what it was. I thought, "Before people care what you believe, they have to believe that you care."

I tried to draw deep on what I know from neuroscience and social science, so I walked around outside-- I was shaking. I knew I was angry. I walked around her side, I took a breath, and I thought about it and I tried to think about it from her perspective.

It was the end of the month, so it was probably a time for her where she was getting a lot of people coming in asking for vehicles. They were probably all very stressed. Probably not a lot of them treated her very well, or maybe there were people who didn't return with the vehicle and then it's on her. That's the next day somebody doesn't get theirs. She finished up with her next client.

She came out and talked to me and I said, "Listen, I know that you probably deal with a lot of people at this time of the month and that probably a lot of them are not very kind to you, and I want you to know that I don't intend to be one of those people." Immediately, her demeanor changed and she started thinking about what she could do to help me get the vehicle. I got the U-Haul that day.

I could've been self-righteous and angry, and looked at it and said, "She doesn't deserve my forgiveness or my understanding, or my thoughtfulness or my compassion." Then I have to think about, "Well, what outcome do I actually want? Do I want her to suffer or do I want my U-Haul?" It's to me just the most vivid reminder of the idea that leaning into compassion, it really is, I think, the most powerful tool we have in our toolkit for navigating even the most frustrating disagreements.

Erin: Yes. How does that translate to what you say about, "You and I are going to be on the same side facing this problem together."? Because you approached her not only on a human level and saw her humanity and put yourself into a place of empathy and compassion, but also how can we solve this problem together? Anthony, how did that work there?

Anthony: I really love that. I think a good approach when you're trying to problem solve around really tough disagreements is to look at it not as you versus me as zero-sum. It's not I'm going to win, or you are. It's you and I against the problem.

Erin: Yes.

Anthony: That framing is just so much more effective for problem-solving because it takes you both out of that threat mindset, it puts you both in that challenge mindset where possibilities open up. Reminding the person you're engaging with that that is your goal, explicitly. Say it out loud. I want to make it clear that I don't want this to be something where I win, or you do. It's you and me. This is the problem. We're teaming up together to face that. How can we put our resources together to tackle it?

Erin: I love that. I love that lesson. Just as a quick diversion, I put it into use just last week after having spoken to you first. This is my way of doing things anyway, was landing at the airport here at home and my luggage wasn't there. Now, it was at home, so I didn't really need everything in it, but I walked up to the desk for the airline and I said, "Bradley, okay, my suitcase didn't make it. How do we go about doing this?" I did it with a smile. My husband said he noticed as we approached, the guy had a face on him like he'd had a day because we know that they have to face all the angry travelers.

He said, "But when you were done with him--" and then I introduced the next people in line behind me, I turned to them and I said, "This is Bradley. He's going to make your night a lot better." The guy could hug me. That's amazing. I got my bag the next day. Again, it's compassion. It's realizing that the person you're speaking to is another human being and they're having a day as well. I know.

Anthony: Exactly.

Erin: It sounds so Mister Rogers' Neighborhood when you think about it, Anthony, but it really is true. There's something else you've talked about, the power of critical thinking. Now we're getting back into the less Rogers' Neighborhood end of things here. Our guest on Episode 43, Peter Mansbridge, you may have heard that name. I like to drop it. Sure. He talked about that very thing. What's your take? What's the power in critical thinking and how can we train ourselves to think more critically, especially in business? We've talked about real life and this conversation is, I hope, as useful and helpful to people in real life, but let's go back to business here for a moment.

Anthony: Sure. Yes. I love to talk and to think about critical thinking. It's actually part of what I study for my research at my lab. Researchers have all kinds of really complicated theories and ideas about it, but I've distilled it down to what I think is a really digestible way of thinking about it in something I call the five C's. They're just really good habits of mind to engage in if you want to practice critical thinking.

The first of those is what I call curiosity. It's the recognition, as I said earlier, that we all have blind spots in our thinking that are by definition invisible to us. We don't know that they're there. Those blind spots, they genuinely shape the reality that is possible. Maybe there's something called a nine-dot problem. Maybe you can try this. Do you have a piece of pen and paper with you?

Erin: I do. Wouldn't you know it, it's a REALTOR®'s pad. I get these.

Anthony: What are the odds? This is a problem that your listeners can do on their-- if they've got a pen and paper handy, it's really easy. You're going to draw nine dots in a grid on your paper.

Erin: All right. Done.

Anthony: Your goal is to connect all nine of those dots using only four lines, yes, it looks just like that. That's right. A grid pattern. Now connect all nine of those dots using only four lines and the trick is, the kicker is you cannot lift your pen off the page. All four lines have to be connected.

Erin: Okay.

Anthony: As you're drawing this, I'll let your listeners know that the success rate-- that's five lines, that's very close. You only had four. It's tricky.

Erin: How many lines?

Anthony: Four lines. The success rate for this is something like 0%, it's called an insight problem, and that is exactly the way that I reacted when I first encountered this problem as well, but I'm going to try to show you how to solve it. I'm going to see, actually, if I've got a piece of paper handy. We've got these nine dots here. Most people will unconsciously imagine a box that they have to stay within, but the solution lies outside, literally outside the box. You start with one line; you draw up and outside of that imaginary box. Two, three, and four.

Erin: Okay. Well, I didn't know we were allowed to draw outside the box. Anthony, I want to do over. No, I'm kidding.

Anthony: That's fair enough. I mean, the first time I experienced this, I saw it at the science center. One of my colleagues showed it to another visitor who was there, and I would say I cried for around two hours, somewhere around two hours. It was really frustrating, but it was really fun and cool to dive into because the thing about this puzzle is at no point did I ever mention the word box or say that there was a box that you had to stay within, that was an idea that you brought to it yourself.

There was this box, that was an assumption that you made about the world, and that unconscious assumption, that blind spot limited what was possible about reality for you. Only once you could identify that blind spot, once you could identify that assumption is the solution to this puzzle possible.

We all have these blind spots, and playing with those blind spots is the key to being innovative and creative, but the problem is, they're by definition, blind spots. You don't know they're there. How do you find them? The answer is, collaboration, is to talk to people who see things differently than you. The first 3Cs of critical thinking are curiosity, so asking for help, finding your blind spots, and playing around with them.

Curiosity, creativity, and collaboration. Now, the trouble is these things can often make us a little bit nervous to do, so you have to lean into calm and courage. You've got to be willing to notice what your goals are, what your unconscious assumptions are, and be willing to accept comfort over courage to be willing to be taught by people who maybe you don't agree with or maybe don't even like that much and let them teach you something about how you might see the world. I think as long as you practice curiosity, creativity, collaboration, calm, and courage, you are practicing good critical thinking.

Erin: Wonderful. Can we end on the Wikipedia note please, as just-

Anthony: Sure.

Erin: -the perfect example of collaboration, Anthony? I love this.

Anthony: Where to start with this? I love Wikipedia because there are lots of places on the internet where we disagree. It feels like most of the internet is people just yelling matches. It's just a big dumpster fire. There is one place on the internet where disagreements not only don't make people polarized, they actually un-polarize people. That is the most successful encyclopedia of all time, Wikipedia.

If you get all of the smartest people, the most well-respected, the most highly accredited people together and get them to try to write an encyclopedia, which by the way happened, you got the Encyclopedia Britannica, it is nowhere near as popular. It costs a lot more, and it is less accurate overall than Wikipedia; this place where people just get together to share their knowledge and try to tell the world what they know.

Erin: And timely too because you're constantly updating it, right?

Anthony: It's constantly updated. It's the place where people genuinely become less polarized because they have a shared goal. It's not you versus me, it's you and I versus the problem. We're trying to accurately describe the world. That means that I have to describe it in a way that even somebody who disagrees with me would agree and vice versa. We've done studies on it; it actually makes people less polarized. It's just the most amazing example of how this kind of radical collaboration can genuinely be a huge net benefit for the world and can transform the world.

Erin: Well, thank you. Thank you for collaborating with us here today, and we so appreciate your insight and wisdom. Anthony, it's been a pleasure.

Anthony: It's been a genuine pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Erin: Fantastic. What a great conversation with Anthony. Now, as a REALTOR®, you know your relationships fuel your business. Doesn't it always come back to compassion and collaboration, even if you disagree with someone? I mean, the science doesn't lie. If you wanna learn more about Anthony's fascinating work, including his hilarious game, Freestyle Socials, it's all on his website, anthonymorganscience.com. Or if you want to try that attention test that Anthony mentioned, just Google Daniel Simon's selective attention test, or you can find the link in our show notes. It's all right there.

REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA, and is a production of Alphabet® Creative with tech support from Rob Whitehead. For more real estate resources, tools, and insights, visit us anytime at crea.ca. If you liked this episode of REAL TIME, check out our other episodes and please do rate and review our show. We always appreciate it. I'm Erin Davis, thanks for being here, and we'll talk to you again soon on REAL TIME.

View Details

Colour affects us physically and mentally. In business, it’s a silent salesperson, a powerful way to send a message.

To start the year, we invited one of the world’s leading colour consultants to help us explore colour trends and the malleable nature of colour itself – how we perceive it, what we can do with it, and how REALTORS® can wield it to instill confidence in their clients.

Leatrice (Lee) Eiseman is Executive Director of the Pantone Color Institute™ and Director of the Eiseman Center for Color Information and Technology. For more than 20 years, she’s been responsible for choosing the Pantone® Color of the Year, which has vastly influenced the worlds of fashion, interior design, product development, and beyond.

Visit LeatriceEiseman.com to explore Lee’s books on colour and online training courses.

Transcript

Erin Davis: Feeling blue, tickled pink, seeing red. Ever wonder why you feel the way you do about certain colours? Well, get ready for an episode full of colour psychology, and plenty of advice for REALTORS®. I'm Erin Davis, and welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS® brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association.

Erin: Now, on this episode, I'm joined by Leatrice Lee Eiseman, the executive director of the Pantone® Color Institute. What colour trends can we expect to see this year? How does colour influence our behavior, and how can REALTORS® use colour to your advantage? Let's ask the expert, shall we? Oh, welcome to REAL TIME, Lee. It's so good to have you here today to kick off the new year with us. We so appreciate it.

Leatrice Eiseman: It's my pleasure.

Erin: Ah, great. Now, we've got a fun question as we leap into this today. In broad strokes, not to use a painting pun right off the bat, but what is a day in the life of one of the world's top colour specialists look like, especially around this time of the new year?

Leatrice: Well, I can tell you no day is like any other day because I never know what challenges I'm going to have. You know I am a colour consultant and so people consult with me. They want answers to questions and particularly with my clients, something can come up out of the blue and I have another question to answer. I have to do some research in order to answer it or it's something I know because it's specific to the work that I do.

I would say to you a typical day would start out with my reviewing. Obviously, my emails, has anybody written in anybody need any answers? I would then go to some of my colour consulting work, which I do with my daughter, who is also my associate, Beatrice. We are also teaching classes online. Even though these are online classes, I'm still available to the students to answer questions. We have to allocate time for the training. I work a lot with Pantone®, my major client, and do a lot of consulting for them as the director of the Pantone® Color Institute.

I wear so many hats that I never know exactly unless I have a prescribed deadline. If I have a deadline, then I know I've got to allocate some time in order to pick out the appropriate colours for whatever that client needs. Be it in packaging or in graphics, whether it's a fashion client or cosmetics or a widget that needs to go on a shopping market shelf. My work is full of challenges and that is part of what I really, really enjoy about doing colour consulting because you really have to put your thinking cap on and so many people think it's so simplistic. Tell us what colour to use to improve productivity?

I get those kinds of questions all the time, and then I have to come back with, wait a minute, I need to ask you some questions in order to give you the answers. There's a lot of homework involved. That's a long-winded answer to your question, but it reflects what my days are like.

Erin: Well, it sounds like you probably do a lot of traveling too. You're in your seat, you've had your first beverage, you're just about to start reading your favorite new book, and somebody finds out what you do. Is there a question that a fellow traveler asks you more often than any other?

Leatrice: Yes, absolutely. I can be sitting next to the CEO of a big company who millions of dollars will come in or out as a result of the colour they've used, and they will have specific questions. Invariably what it boils down to is what colour should I paint my living room walls.

Leatrice: It's become like a family joke. When I'm going off to wherever it is and I come home, my daughter will say, "Okay, who did you sit next to, and what did they ask?" Almost invariably it's that same question. It really shows me that in the end, even though you make these amazing colour decisions about the widget or whatever, people are so involved with the colours that are around them. They don't necessarily think that way. They don't think that they are until they're in a panic and then have to make a decision about what colour to paint those walls.

It becomes very personal. That also is a part of my work that I dearly love that finding out more about people when they share what they like or dislike about a colour.

Erin: Oh, and we're going to dive into that. The psychology of it is just, oh, it's so fascinating. Okay, Lee, have colour trends changed over the years? Their impact, their longevity, and so on? I don't know. Have we always been this obsessed with colour?

Leatrice: I don't think people have been this obsessed with colour. I think that what has happened is even though for many people who are creatives, designers, and artists, and people's whose work involves colour or their hobbies or interests, but I do think what has happened with the proliferation of this global network that we started to hear about in the late '80s and '90s, and also television shows, the home improvement shows. I think what has happened now is that people will look at those shows or go online and they see much more information that's out there about colour, more discussion about colour, and as a result, it's opened up everybody's consciousness and awareness about colour.

I have to tell you, even though we will probably talk about colour in the year further in this conversation, one of the reasons that I started to do the Colour of the Year for Pantone® was because we were getting calls from people, particularly at the end of the '90s. People were emailing or calling Pantone® and asking, "What's the colour of the new millennium?" We understood that we needed to come up with the colour to represent that. They were interested in that.

For me, the fascinating part of it was the psychological impact of that. Why are they asking that question? What does colour represent to them? What does the future hold as far as colour is concerned? I think that doing the Colour of the Year really started an in-depth conversation with people who never even thought about colour before.

I remember my husband coming home from the barber and he's saying to me, "The barber said to me, it's about that time that the Colour of the Year is going to be announced. What do you think the Colour of the Year is going to be?" That's his barber. That's not a designer, interior designer, or artist. This is an ordinary person. We started that conversation about colour. I think that since 1999 in particular, it has become a big hot topic.

Erin: I guess so. What a coup for Pantone® to have you and to be associated so closely now with the colour, the authoritative voice. That's absolutely astounding. You were right there for the birth of it. That's amazing, Lee. Could you have imagined at that time that this would become such a thing?

Leatrice: I didn't realize that it would become such a thing right away, but as the years went by, I could see the momentum building and then again, dispensing itself through population, people that you would never think would have any access to information about the Colour of the Year, the ordinary person on the street that you could have a conversation with, and they would discuss the Colour of the Year.

It was just absolutely astounding that it would have the impact that it had. Of course, I'm delighted by it because if you can get a conversation going about colour, you can find out an awful lot about the person who's sharing that information with you, and you can help them. The bottom line to me is to educate people about colour. That's my passion.

Erin: Absolutely. You're good at it, obviously, to be doing this now for 25 years. That's incredible, in any line of business. To be doing it with something you feel passionate about, what a gift. What a gift.

Leatrice: Yes, this is.

Erin: Is it a bit of responsibility Lee, though? When you go out, I see your fuzzy peach and I will raise you a manicure because I went-

Leatrice: Ooh. I like it.

Erin: -to the manicurist. I said, "I'm going to be talking to this woman who knows from colour," and she says, "It's fuzzy peach for 2024, so I'd better get on it." You can't wear this crown lightly?

Leatrice: Well, no, I don't take it lightly because I realize that a lot of people do listen to it and embrace it. For me, the challenge is for those people who might say, and the colour is Peach Fuzz, they might say, "Oh, I'm not so sure that I'm so crazy about that colour." If you get into a conversation with them about it, you might find out, here I put on my therapist hat, and I say to them, "Well, was there anything in your childhood that you can remember about the colour? Anything negative perhaps that happened to you?"

Sometimes they can answer it right away. Sometimes they have to think about it a while and get back to you, but the answer could be, "Well, you know I remember when I was about four years old, I went to a carnival. It was my first carnival. I ate cotton candy. Oh, and I think it was that colour, and I ate too much of it and got sick on my way home and I've never liked peach fuzzy colours since then."

My challenge becomes, particularly if you're talking to someone who's designing a new product, their personal interest, their personal likes and dislikes, can't come into it. It's a question of, is it going to appeal to your target audience. If peach fuzz is exactly the colour that I feel is going to work for that product, then you've got to wipe out these negatives that are in the back of your mind and think of it from a positive perspective.

My challenge is that happened when you were four years old. Does it have any effect on your life now? Does it impact your life at all? It's an old memory that's stored in your memory bank. It has nothing to do with you as an adult and certainly as a business decision.

Again, in my consultant/therapist hat, I try to lead people down the path of making a positive out of the negative because it is important to look at it objectively. Look at your decisions objectively. I tell my students all the time, it cannot be a personal decision. It has to be a professional decision.

Erin: It's interesting that you talk about therapist/consultant hats that you wear, because I'm sure that every REALTOR® is going, "Yes, me too." All of this just resonates so clearly and people's preferences when it comes to colour and psychology. Let's do a little bit of word association or colour association if we can. Lee, you've already brought up, and I called it fuzzy peach. Peach fuzz. Peach fuzz. I got to get to know this for the year ahead.

Some of the colours and associations that you find most commonly among your students, among your clients, the people that you meet when you're walking down the street, or whatever during your daily?

Leatrice: Well, it's interesting because from a historical perspective, and of course, I do study the history of colour, I have to in order to know where people's thoughts and feelings came from. What were the influences in the world around us when they first formulated their opinions, where the public, in general, formulated their opinions? I do use colour word association studies. I've used them for a number of years, and we can track those studies and see if people's opinions have changed.

Of course, the colour I love to point out all the time, particularly for REALTORS® because you find so much of this colour, whether it's on the outside of the house or the inside of the house, and that is brown as a colour family. I can remember a time when we'd showed people a little swatch of Pantone® brown. Invariably the response would be earth, dirt, or dirty. Now that can be positive, or it can be negative. If they're gardeners and they love that wonderful, rich humus soil, then brown's a good thing.

Or they may come up with chocolate. Obviously, that's a positive response. More often than not, it was about earth and more about kind of dirty. Over the years, what I saw primarily coming from the fashion world, cosmetic world, where a lot of the trends do start, there was this changing attitude about brown. That was, I can remember seeing a Michael Kors dress coming down the runway, sequins and paillettes and sparkle. You never saw this for after 5:00. Brown was strictly a country colour, not a city colour, so to speak. Worn for daytime, never for the evening.

Other designers hopped on the bandwagon, and they used brown in a very dressy way. Of course, when you ask people about brown from the standpoint of beautiful leather does brown leather remind you, even a faux leather that we might be using today that looks like leather has a rich patina on it. If you were to go into a home and you saw grandma's armoire that's been in the family for years and you're never ever going to part with that armoire because it's very special to you or any other piece of furniture. Or your new home has those wonderful wood floors with a nice shiny patina on them.

Somehow people don't think of brown as a presence when it's in a wood tone. They think of it if you mention it as a pigment or as a paint colour. What I think REALTORS® have to to bear in mind, in particular, is how and where a colour is used. What is the context of the colour? Let's not just say, "Do you like brown? Do you dislike brown?" Let's think about it in various ways it might be used in a home, and look in how rich, or how elegant or how earthy, in the case of doing something rustic, earthy would be a good term to use.

It's no longer dirty. We don't think of that wood patina on the floor as dirty unless it has a lot of dog hair on it. We want to get rid of that. We know about that.

Erin: Yes, we do.

Leatrice: Yes, we do, but on the other hand let's think of the positive aspects of it. Even if you were to describe a home to a prospective client, what positive things can we say about that colour? Going back to brown for a moment in the fashion field, again, to supplement Michael Kors came the brown diamonds. That became a big deal. Nobody had ever seen or worn a brown diamond before.

Of course, the movie Chocolat came out about the same time that brown was gaining more momentum. That was a very artsy kind of film and had a lovely connotation. Even Godiva chocolates was no longer meant just for the elite. You could find Godiva in the corner store, in your supermarket. It was a little more pricey than some of the other chocolates were, but certainly worth it.

Your cosmetic companies started to come up with the usage of brown. Now of course, we see it even further supplemented as as a symbol of inclusion, of thinking in terms of all kinds of skin tones, and how some of the beautiful browns and mocha colours, the whole family of brown. We've developed a much different connotation of that colour. As a colour consultant and as a client talking to clients, I have to point out these things because they might be mired in a certain period, arrested in a certain period of their development where they don't think in terms of these newer aspects of brown.

For anyone in the real estate field, I can tell you, when you're talking about a person's home, a home they want to purchase or they want to sell, it gets very emotional. You have to become, in a way, a colour consultant yourself in that they look to you for your advice and your knowledge. For me, knowledge is all important. Training yourself, teaching yourself as much as you can, reading as much as you can about colour, because it's that guidance that helps your client develop confidence in you and your awareness level, and you're making them more aware as well.

Erin: I want to talk about peach fuzz, and this is the way that you described it. You said that this year's colour choice echoes our innate yearning for closeness and connection at colour radiant with warmth and modern elegance. A shade that resonates with compassion offers a tactile embrace, and effortlessly bridges the youthful with the timeless.

I agree with that. Of course, I do because you know exactly what you're talking about, but it seems to be such a lane change from what the colour was in 2023, which was so. It was warm and passionate and just so sexy. Let's talk about what was, what is, and how you get from '23 to '24, Lee.

Leatrice: Well, the most important thing in deciding on the Colour of the Year is what is the global zeitgeist about the colour. Listening to people they're telling us what it is that they want. What are their aspirations? What are their hopes? That's a very, very important points arriving at a colour decision.

That ability to listen, to absorb what is happening in the world around you.

Now, we certainly know there's a lot of concern about our world today, a lot of reasons to be concerned. The Viva magenta, which is an appropriate name for the colour, we felt coming out of COVID, we could feel a little more confident. At the time we were thinking about naming the colour, which is always about six months before we actually do it, we start to gather our, like squirrels, we gather our little nuts and kernels that lead us to the Colour of the Year.

We knew that we were on a pathway to come out of COVID, so people didn't want to be sequestered. They wanted to be with others. They wanted a reason to celebrate. What is more celebratory as a colour than Viva Magenta? Even the sound of it, Viva, it's full of life. It's full of energy. That we felt needed to be infused and now people are telling us, "Okay, we need some quiet time." We need time to ourselves, we need time to communicate with others, but not necessarily let's party, party, party, but let's do it on a more thoughtful level. I think thoughtfulness, kindness, these kinds of words, kept coming back to us again and again and again.

As I said, that's the first area that we look at. Now, of course, from a more practical standpoint, we have to look at what the designers are doing, what they're bringing down the runways, what the cosmetic world is doing, because that's always very indicative of direction. At one point in time, we did not look at industrial design at all, because industrial designers were always at the bottom of the list of designers as to who they would embrace or what they would embrace.

In the world of electronics, in particular, or the computers themselves, it was putty-coloured. Nobody ever did colour until Apple came along, as we know what happened in the late '90s, and they still didn't sell as many as PCs, but I will tell you, nobody who lived through that era will ever forget the impact of those amazing, colourful computers.

People did start to look at industrial design and think, "Oh my goodness, there's an area where colour is being used too, in mundane products we wouldn't have thought of in colour." As a colourist, one of the other areas that I look at, and people always think this is a head-scratcher, I look at what the concept cars are for the future because we know that the vehicle manufacturers have all of this marvelous technology that's available to them to test out new finishes, and new finishes help to bring new colours. We're always looking ahead to see what's on the drawing board.

It's not what's in the showroom today, but what the future holds. That's an area that we look at as well. We look at what's happening in the world of sports. Is the Olympics going to be held next year? What country? What are the flags of the country? What are the uniform colours that might be worn? Anything that might indicate to us where colour is going from a technological standpoint, from a fashion standpoint, graphic design, packaging, anybody doing anything new in packaging that really is different and unusual, what colours are they using?

What about the art world and the entertainment world? Certainly, we don't look at the movies that are coming out today, but we're looking at the movies that are going to be released next year. People all over the world are going to be watching those films. What colours are being used in the film? Are they animated films? I always tell adults, by the way, even if you don't have a kid, borrow one to go to movies and look at the animated films because that tells you a lot. Film animators are so marvelous in looking to the future, and they have the technology available to them now that enables them to put colours up on the screen that are so wonderfully intense.

It doesn't have to be a bright colour. It can be something like a neutral tone that they show us, a nuance of a colour that perhaps we hadn't seen before. Is it a gray? Is it a blue? Is it somewhere in between? We're constantly educating ourselves about direction, but we have all of these areas to look at and to do a lot of homework in.

Erin: Wow. I'm trying, in my mind's eye to picture choosing the colour. You went with Viva Magenta and everybody knew Barbie was coming out in 2023. Was there a tie in there, Lee, or was that strictly luck?

Leatrice: During the time that the movie came out, it certainly was a big deal and it's certainly not totally gone away. We wanted something that would have a bit more adult energy that would be involved in it. We wanted that same excitement. We were on the same track and thinking in terms of a colour family, but we felt that Barbie pink would be perhaps a little bit too obvious and maybe be perceived of as a little too juvenile. We always want our colour to be rather ageless so that it could appeal to all ages again, depending on the context in which it's used.

Erin: When you talk about peach fuzz, and when I brought this up at the nail salon where all the good conversations happen or your husband's barbershop, of course, there's a thought of, "Wow, it's back." Of course, it was a thing, and I remember my mom having throw pillows and a couch and stuff that had some peach in it. Is there a lifespan for colour, Lee? Do you look at it because we see things come back, like shoulder pads in fashion, for example, and different elements in the home as well that come back, like retro appliances or things like that?

Do colours have a lifespan that will come back? Will we see Millennium Blue again? Which of course we can tell now is 24 years old. What do you think of that?

Leatrice: At one point, we could talk about the longevity of a colour. We could rate colour from the standpoint of if you looked at just general likes and dislikes you would find that perhaps orange and some of our colours like bright lime greens and some of the purples were never considered the most popular colours. Invariably blue is at the top of the list. We know that, but there are many variations of blue. What blue are we talking about?

To answer your question, even though you read occasionally or see online or you hear somebody say, "Oh, trends happen so quickly." Actually, I think it's the opposite. I think that trends are lasting longer now in colour than they ever have before. One of the reasons for that is that we're dealing multi-generationally when you're looking at the younger audience, the kids, who were not even living when avocado green, harvest gold were the good colours. Remember that? Nobody wanted to touch those colours in the '80s because we were so inundated with those same colours.

Erin: Traumatized.

Leatrice: Colour traumatized. I like that. I might use that again. Absolutely. Now, what you're seeing is that colours have a longer shell place. I'll point out the yellow-green as a perfect example. Now, when we started to look at green as a Colour of the Year many years ago, obviously we were looking at the social implications of the colour.

If you say nature to people, if you say ecology, if you say environment and you say colour, almost invariably green is one of the first colours that comes to mind. The preservation of the environment, preserving the world around us. Now, we could think in terms of other earth colours, too. Green somehow implies a freshness and implies growth, new growth. Spring comes every year, and we see those new shoots coming out of the ground. We know that's always going to happen.

It gives us a feeling of something that's hopeful with that yellow-green. Now, at one time, it was not as popular a colour. It was considered garish. It's too bright. Now, we look at that colour as being more closely associated with nature and with preserving nature. Again, it's what's happening in the world around us. What social implications, what environmental implications are there, geographic implications? That has to be brought into play as far as choosing a Colour of the Year or--

I work a lot on forecasts, both for the home, for interiors and exteriors. A lot of my clients are clients who are building homes or communities and choosing colours. I have to look at it from the standpoint of not just the geography of the area that we're in, but what are the implications of that colour now? Is it thought of more positively? I would have to say to you that the yellow-greens, I would say in the last 10 to 15 years, have been more wildly popular than any other time in history. A lot of that is because of the connection to the preservation of the universe, if not our planet.

Erin: All right, let's talk about homes. Often when we look at homes, I know in my case, if I'm looking at a whole bunch of them, and that's usually the way it goes, I'll go, "Okay, the blue house or red kitchen house or." I don't think I've ever seen a red kitchen, but who knows? You know what I mean. I will associate the colour with a house. What about people like you talk, you said with builders and that sort of thing and we all associate new homes a lot with builder beige or very light gray or something like that. What is your advice to people who are looking to make an impact but not scream a colour?

Leatrice: That's a very good question. It's a question I get a lot. Obviously, I mentioned the geographic location. You don't want to be the purple lady who paints the house purple if the neighborhood is filled with other earth tones. Obviously, the neighbors aren't going to be very happy with that. Let's say that purple is a favorite colour, obviously, for us it's obvious, not obvious to everyone depending on how fanatic you are about a colour, if you love a colour, like a purple think in terms of the purple family. There are many different shades of purple. Everything from an elegant eggplant or the the French call it aubergine way down to the mauves and the lilacs and the grade of lavender-ish purples. There's a whole range and if that's a colour that makes you happy, there's opportunities to use that colour within the home.

Now, we obviously think of the accent colours, the pillows, the accent carpet, and perhaps something in a painting or a poster on the wall. Many opportunities, a lampshade wherever. I think that it's a really important if you're selling the home to do something that's a little memorable so that when people are looking at a lot of houses as perspective buys you are right. They will leave that home and think, "Oh, that's the house that had the red toaster and those appliances in the kitchen." It makes it more memorable.

I think that there is a case to be made for making the home more memorable so that when the prospective buyer leaves there is something they can tag onto that house that makes them remember the house. Now, it doesn't mean that you've got to repaint all the walls in that particular colour. I like to point out there are other areas as well, like for example the front door for curb appeal. If everybody else has a brown wooden door and maybe you want to make it a little more elegant, maybe your home is a little more traditional and you want to set the stage before you even open that door. Perhaps aubergine is the colour to use on that front door. Perhaps and certainly we know that we want to doll up the front of the house for curb appeal. Perhaps it's in the plants that sit on the front porch or on the front steps. Something that you can do in your landscaping around the outside of the house that will make it more memorable.

Oh, do remember those purple hydrangeas, how gorgeous they were against the house? Those memorable things.

I'm not suggesting that it has to be a bright knock-your-socks-off colour but I will say this about paint and I think it's really important to bear in mind, everybody's mindful about how much is it going to cost me. I don't want to have to pull up the carpeting and replace it. That's going to cost too much.

What about the entryway? What if I did one wall in the entry in that wonderful new Peach Fuzz colour, which is very warm and inviting? I want people to leave my house saying, "Oh, that's a very warm house. That's an inviting house. A feeling of nurturing of possibly using that colour in a bathroom because it throws a good light on the skin.

There are those opportunities to use colour, and it doesn't have to be brilliant colour, that's not what I'm suggesting, but finding a spot, the right place to use it, to make the house more memorable and to leave people with the right impression. As I always like to say, and I've already mentioned, if people leave your home and they say, "Oh, warm, inviting, I felt welcome in that atmosphere," then let's think about that in terms of what we might use in the colours for that house.

Erin: Such great advice, Lee. When we're talking about, say, a development that's got a school nearby and parks, and you're going to aim at the young family, for example, is there such a thing as staging that might appeal to certain buyers?

Leatrice: As far as young families are concerned, I think you need to think in terms of your area. The obvious thing is that there have been a lot of the gray walls, and of course, the black and white and a lot of it's being shown on television shows and inspiration online. The problem with that is that they all wind up looking very much alike. There's that memorability that disappears again.

Now, I say to people that live in a particular home, if you love the country atmosphere and you have decorated in country, now country also conjures up certain ideas. It can be over countryfied with too many home sweet homes all over the walls. At the same time, I think younger people today are a bit more sophisticated in their tastes but at the same time, they may find something memorable in something that they own. Maybe grandma's house was a favorite place to go when they were children and grandma had blue willow china that was in her china cabinet and you want a few pieces of that because it reminds you of your lovely grandma who you dearly love, and you want to introduce that colour scheme, but you don't want to do it so that it's overdone. That's the suggestion I give.

I think that REALTORS® have to become, anyone who is involved in the sale of houses or putting a house on the market, you have to become a colour consultant, too. I mentioned that earlier, and I think it's important to question the would-be buyer or the would-be seller. What is there about your home that speaks to you? What is the message that you would want to give across, particularly in buying a home? What are you looking for? That's the advice that you could give to the person who's putting the house on the market.

Just a few pieces, not a whole wall of grandma's china, but a few touches of that that bring back some of that nostalgia but is not overdone. I never say to people, "Oh, that's so yesterday." Maybe the mauve carpeting was done several years back, but it's still in good condition. Maybe now with the mauve, we're going to use some other tones next to it. Maybe we're going to use some blue-greens instead of the usual kinds of colours that you would use with the mauve.

Here's your educational aspect that I was talking about earlier, of REALTORS® being aware that there's a great deal to learn about colour, and you should get the books, get the magazines, look online, take some colour training. All of this is helpful because the more you know about colour and the more you can pass on to your clients, the more confident they become in your abilities. Now, I'm being redundant, I said it before, but I'm a teacher at heart, and I believe that learning more about a subject makes you more valuable as a salesperson.

Erin: As you talk about therapist, consultant, there's also a little bit of decorator in there, too, because one of your messages that I love too, is that if you want to inject a little bit of colour, like I see you've got the Peach Fuzz on and I picked up a scarf. I haven't put it on yet, but I almost did for you today, Lee. Just eclectic, as you've said.

Again, it's not a magic bullet. It can be an eye dropper of the colour that brings in the feeling of 2024 and Peach Fuzz and what you're trying to, but not trying too hard, to send us a message if I'm getting your message correctly here today.

Leatrice: Yes, absolutely. I like your usage of the word eye dropper and also the word eclectic, because eclectic is a keyword today, meaning that you don't have to be so super conscious of everything being absolutely matchy, matchy. That it's okay to have a more traditional setting and to use a lucite coffee table in front of that wonderful cushy sofa. That you don't have to be as concerned about periods now, but what's more important is getting the essential feeling that you want get across. That you have a room that perhaps is rather dark, doesn't have a lot of light coming into it, small windows, the first thing to think about is how to enlarge that space to make that a more welcoming space.

I will share with you a tip that was given to me by a famous decorator in New York, many years ago. I've never forgotten it. I thought it was so brilliant. That was, if you have a room that's small and it doesn't have a lot of light, the obvious thing is to paint it with a light colour. I will tell you; it doesn't necessarily have to work that way.

Let's say it's a small powder room or a bathroom that you're not going to-- you don't live in that room, you're going to walk in and out, use it, and then come out and do whatever else. Sometimes a bit of drama is something to add too. I have never had a powder room in any home that I've ever had that I don't paint some deep dramatic colour because I know that people are going to walk into that and say, "Wow, I wouldn't have thought of doing a room in this dark colour."

Again, think context, a room that doesn't have any light coming in, but it has electric light so that you can see, let's stretch your imagination a bit and not do just the obvious. At the same time, getting back to the designer who said to me in a small room let's do the ceiling in blue. I thought, "Wow, why?" He said, "Because blue is the sky--

Erin: Wow.

Leatrice: -and because it opens us up to the universe and it makes us feel more connected with the outdoors, the outside." Same reason for using green plants in a room. Not only does it help as far as oxidation is concerned, or oxygenation, I should say, but it also brings in a sense of balance.

Now, there is something called homeostasis in interior design that I think is a really important point. Again, I teach it in my classes. Homeostasis is a fancy word for balance. That is that a room should never be decorated in totally warm colours or totally cool colours because you need a balance. Your temperature needs to be regulated in a given space. If you walk into a room that has mostly warm colours in it, and a lot of people would prefer that in a home, be sure that you bring some green plants in. Be sure there's some touch of blue-green or bluish-lavender, something from the opposite side of the colour wheel because that helps to give you balance. It keeps your homeostasis on a human level at a good point.

Conversely, we don't ever want to do a room that's all done in cool colours because then we're going to start to feel cold. Nobody wants to leave a home and say, "Oh, I felt chilled in that home. It's so cold." That's never a compliment. I'm not saying don't use cool colours because they are. Blue is highly preferred, but what shade of blue are we going to use? Is it going to be a Periwinkle Blue as we did two years ago as the Colour of the Year, very peri that has a little red in it, a little purplish tone, and it warms that blue up.

We don't have to say, "Don't ever use blue because it's cold." We might say, "Let's warm that blue up a little bit. "Again, it's educating yourself to the usage of colour and not overgeneralizing about don't use this, don't use that. Always think of it in context in terms of where the home is, where the space is, how are you using the colour?

Erin: Oh, there's so much wisdom here. Lee, honestly, we could go on. As we wrap up, I think part of the message that we've gotten from you and from Pantone® through the years is that, you know what? There's more than one colour on that paint chip, and it doesn't have to be that Peach Fuzz. It can be any of the ones in the family. I think that's really important to remember too.

You've mentioned this in branding for companies and for REALTORS® who have a company or their own partnership or whatever. If you want to freshen up the colours, not to throw the baby out with the bath water, but maybe to look at another colour in the family and keep your basic colour, but just expand on it, grow, let it blossom.

Leatrice: Exactly. It's a very, very well-made point. You don't want to throw the baby out with bath water. You have equity if you're doing branding in a particular colour, you've established it over the years. You've developed a reputation around it. Nevertheless, we want to freshen it up a little bit to a new pair of eyes. Again, you mentioned that younger generation that might be purchasing that product or that home, whatever it would be.

Let's give it a fresher approach. That's taking a look at the colours you already have and using a nuance of that colour.

There's also something else that I would like to mention, that is that there are a group of colours called crossovers that we see in nature around us frequently. As a result, they are very versatile colours. It's important to think in terms of versatility, and that is something that I teach in my classes as well. As a matter of fact, right now I'm working on a program that we are going to offer online to people who want more knowledge about colour in interiors. They don't want to be overwhelmed. It's not all about colour theory which can make you crazy after a while, but it's the most basic ideas, the most basic concepts about colour. I go back to the idea of educating yourself, keeping yourself aware of what's going on in the world of colour.

Erin: Thank you. Thank you for educating us, enlightening us, colouring our world. We so appreciate your time and your wisdom today, Lee. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, one more thing. I can't let you go. Just while it's us, what's going to be the colour for 2025?

Leatrice: Oh, you know I can't tell you that.

Erin: Oh, I can't ask.

Leatrice: I can't reveal it. Honestly--

Erin: Colour me blushing.

Leatrice: --we're still doing our homework. We're not anywhere near there yet.

Erin: Oh, I'd love to be in on the think tank. Thank you so much for opening everything to us here today. Take care. Well, I tried. Okay. Thanks, Lee. Happy New Year.

Leatrice: Thank you, Erin.

Erin: Okay.

Leatrice: Bye-bye.

Erin: Wasn't she great? Colour consultant extraordinaire, Lee Eiseman. Wow. I was tickled Peach Fuzz to learn that our perceptions of colour can actually change. I absolutely loved what Lee said about eclecticism in the home, so fascinating. If you want to learn more about colour trends and psychology, whether it's for yourself or for your business, Lee's got you covered. She has authored 10 books on the subject and has a handful of courses available through her website, leatriceeiseman.com, and you can find it in our show notes.

REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA. Production is courtesy of Alphabet® Creative with tech support from Rob Whitehead. If you want more real estate resources, tools, and insights, just visit us anytime at CREA.ca. If you liked this episode, we hope you did, there's more where it came from. We're inviting you to explore all of our REAL TIME episodes, all bringing you trusted, inspiring perspectives on all things Canadian real estate.

Would you do us a favor? Don't forget to like, subscribe, rate, or review. We really appreciate it. I'm your host, Erin Davis. Thank you so much for joining us and we'll talk to you again soon on REAL TIME.

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For all its opportunities, a career in real estate can be demanding.

Continuing our Working REALTOR® series, this episode highlights the importance of finding balance, not just for your health but to reconcile your hard work with a sense of purpose and fulfillment.

Hear from three members of the REALTOR® community who’ve made it their mission to find balance: Crystal Hung, a 2023 Canadian REALTORS Care® Award nominee and the owner of Icon&co. Peggy Hill, broker and CEO at the Peggy Hill Team; and Darin Germyn, a REALTOR® and leader of the Germyn Group and Director-at-Large with the Canadian Real Estate Association.

Transcript

Erin Davis: This is REAL TIME, the podcast for and about REALTORS®, brought to you by CREA, the Canadian Real Estate Association. I'm Erin Davis, proud to be your host, and I'm so glad you're here because we've got a great conversation for you today in Episode 45. For all its opportunities, working in real estate comes with its share of demands, from long hours to quick turnarounds. Continuing our Working REALTOR® series, this episode highlights the importance of finding balance, not just for the sake of your health, but to reconcile your hard work with a sense of purpose and fulfillment.

You're going to hear advice and insight from three members of the REALTOR® community who have made it their mission to find balance: Crystal Hung, a 2023 Canadian REALTORS Care® Award nominee and the owner of Icon & Co, Peggy Hill, broker and CEO at the Peggy Hill team, and Darin Germyn, a REALTOR® with The Germyn Group and Director-at-Large with the Canadian Real Estate Association.

Welcome to REAL TIME, everyone. We're so thrilled to have you with us this month. We're going to start with a quick round of introductions, who you are, where you're from, and what drew you to working in real estate. We're going to start out, let's start in the east and with Peggy. Hi, Peggy.

Peggy Hill: I'm Peggy Hill. I am located in Barrie, Ontario, in Simcoe County. I have a small team of 60 REALTORS® that I run here. What drew me to real estate initially was that someone lied to me and told me that it's flexible hours and I can make a lot of money doing very little.

Erin: All right. We'll find out what version of the truth that turned into as time went on. Crystal, tell us about yourself.

Crystal Hung: Hello, everyone. I am Crystal Hung. I am from the beautiful British Columbia. I work in the Greater Vancouver market. What drew me to real estate was really a love for architecture and design and business. I grew up with an architect father and my mom was a chef. Between those two professions, I found real estate.

Erin: Here you are owning three brokerages. Wow. What a story. Darin, what's your story?

Darin Germyn: I'm down in beautiful Surrey, British Columbia. Like many, I had a father who was in real estate. Coming from the restaurant industry, came home one day, and he was in the kitchen making lunch and dressed really nice. I had recognized he was on the phone, he had freedom of time, a professional industry, social industry, and just was really intrigued by that. I decided I would, like so many, give it a try and see what happened.

Erin: I think we can all agree there's a unique brand of work ethic that is required in this profession. The question for you all and each of you, what strategies have helped you work smarter, not harder, when you're starting to feel the burn? We will begin with you, please, Crystal.

Crystal: Strategies. I think it's about knowing your constraints. Like any other business, any stores, there is a limited time of which the business is open. As a REALTOR®, as much as we like to be on the go 24/7, we really can't do that. Having a constraint and knowing what makes you happy was really one of the first things I did in my first year. I looked at who I was working with. I drew smiley faces when they made me happy. From that, I really found what was really making me happy and eliminated what was not making me happy.

There's lots of things that don't make us happy. Don't get me wrong. It's just really having the ability to track where things are at and having a conversation with yourself. I think over time, you just find balance and merge your lifestyle with your work.

Erin: Through something as simple as your homemade emojis, you were able to determine that running the business aspect was really what fulfilled Crystal. Am I right?

Crystal: Yes. Very early on, I realized there was this consistency in my business, which was I was really good at doing commercial deals. I was really good with developers. I love talking to my managing brokers and would go up to them and say certain things are not working. I was really drawn to the operational side of things. I think it enabled me to look at real estate as a career holistically. and find my niche in what I do now. It started with the smiley faces.

Erin: Very good. Peggy, what strategies helped you work smarter, not harder, when you're starting to feel the burn?

Peggy: I think in the beginning of my career, I think, like most people, we just work. There's no harder, smarter. There's nothing. We just work. I think the longer you're in this business, the more you learn, and you realize that there are certain aspects of the business that you're not great at and that other people can help you with. However, I think that comes with time, and it comes with patience, and it comes with money to be able to hire the right people to help you.

In the beginning, I honestly don't think I had a lot of balance. I think I was just doing it all and terrified to say no because it was the beginning of my career. Then, I met the right people, I got the right admin staff, I had buyers’ agents that helped me control my time and open windows for me. I think that's where the balance came in after, but it wasn't in the early days, I'll tell you that.

Erin: I found it interesting in learning about you too, Peggy, is that like Darin, you came from a restaurant industry. We know Crystal is steeped in architecture, which of course is a beautiful segue into real estate. You started out in the restaurant business, which can be extremely difficult, and then you segued into real estate. That must have been a really big change for you. All of a sudden, it feels like you're making money, and it's hard to pull back from that.

Peggy: It's very difficult when you're making money because restaurant businesses are not always lucrative. They teach you how to work hard, for sure. However, I got into real estate, and all of a sudden, I'm getting paid for my time. That's the one thing I had to come to terms with that it's okay to accept payment for my time and for my expertise and my knowledge because I was no longer handing people food.

I'm grateful for all the years that I spent in the restaurant business because it taught me people. At the end of the day, we're in the people business. No matter what business you're in, I think the importance is the people.

Darin: Peggy said it really well. Whether it's in the restaurant industry or helping people buy and sell one of their most valuable assets, we have a responsibility to really deliver on the expectations. One of the great ways to deliver on those expectations is to be very clear with our clients about what we can do and what we can't do, and also how we're going to perform our roles as their stewards of their transaction.

Personally, having a team of three helping me behind the scenes, I don't have to do everything. Knowing where my limitations are, and also where my time is better spent to be productive, rather than just busy. As an example, I could check email first thing in the morning, or I could have somebody help me check email first thing in the morning, so I can move on to bigger and better things to really assist my clients.

That all sounds great. Sometimes it takes a lot of willpower to really be able to do that. In our business, we really try to augment technology to help keep us all honest, whether that's software that helps with scheduling, as an example, where people can see directly into your calendar and book things in that only you allow for ahead of time and can't book things in that you don't allow for ahead of time, or whether it's in your voicemail saying that your phone is off at a certain time in the evening, or you're not available on a certain day or text auto responders.

There's so many ways that you can really help keep that balance so you don't come to that point of where you start to feel burnt out and not being able to deliver again on those expectations that are so important to deliver to our clients.

Erin: Name drop what you use for your calendar tech. I think we can all use tips. I'm sure that a lot of people use the one that you use.

Darin: Yes, there's various programs out there. The one that's my favorite is certainly Calendly. I find it the most user-friendly for both sides, not only for the professional side, but also for the consumer as well. Definitely, a great option to check out.

Peggy: I also live and die by my calendar. Everyone knows that I'll do whatever my calendar says. If they want me to show up somewhere, they'll just put it in there. I also want to give people permission as newer REALTORS® to not feel badly about saying yes all the time because we've all done it. We've all said yes. Even now, I struggle with no, but I'm in a very different position than I was when I first got my real estate license. I definitely live, and die, by my calendar.

Sometimes blocking those times out, people don't have the opportunity to put something in there. You don't even know that you've said no. I found that helped.

Erin: Yes. You have voiced a regret that you had back when your three kids were at home. I think that it's poignant to bring that up because so many people are dealing with it on the regular.

Peggy: For sure. I think a lot of times we want to do the best job possible. This job is so time-consuming. When it's your passion, and you want to do right by people, and you want to be the best you can be, it's very difficult to say no. Then you look at your watch, and it's seven o'clock, and you haven't gone home yet. I think if I had to do it over again with three small kids, I think I could have better time-blocked my time.

I could have not taken calls at dinnertime. Just time-blocked time that was specifically for them. Then people would understand. They don't want to understand, but they will understand. They will wait for you. It's really tough as a new REALTOR® to say no and to know that there's going to be more coming your way.

Erin: Crystal, you're also a fan of Calendly. Tell us about that.

Crystal: I'm a fan of technology. We try to automate parts of our business. Not all of it. It's not possible. Calendly, for example, for us, we've used it to help REALTORS® with too many leads and too many calls where they're overwhelmed. It's not only a great tool to allow people to see what your availabilities are, but it's also a great way to automate some parts of the business so you're not on the phone all the time coordinating appointments that really can be done by a tool.

Just to piggyback on Peggy's comments on saying yes, I think a lot of us got here today by saying yes to things that were difficult and challenging. I think there comes a point in time where you have to realize what are some of the things that you're really good at and drop some of the things you're not good at and refer it out and learn from other people.

Erin: You even do something as important as blocking off time for your lunch, and yet you use those two hours to also do something that's enriching for yourself and ultimately for your business, Crystal.

Crystal: Yes, I'm a fan of doing two things at once, like most REALTORS® are. Yes, I started with no appointments. When you start, you have nothing. I book appointments with myself to set my goals in the morning and make phone calls in the late mornings. Then I have two-hour lunch where I invite people to have lunch with me. Really realizing that you can both enjoy your lunch and have meaningful business conversations was one of my first discoveries in having a really balanced life, is just really blocking off two hours for lunch. If I feel like having lunch with myself, I'll do that. If I feel like I have space to meet a client, I will do so. It's worked out.

Erin: Darin, tell us about your philosophy of taking control of your calendar. If you don't have scheduling software, you can call the client and lay it out. Tell us about that.

Darin: Yes, it's really hard sometimes to impose all the great ideas that we want to-- the standards, I guess, that we want to live up to in our business. When the rubber meets the road, sometimes that's easier said than done. There's little things that you can do to still take control of your time. An example of that would be that you can be very proactive in planning your week or your time that you're actually going to spend with clients.

As an example, if a buyer that's actively looking for a property, rather than waiting for them to call you about the newest and greatest home to go take a look, well, why not book a set appointment a day or two out so everyone knows what and when you're going to be meeting. You can go ahead and look at the property then instead of being reactive and maybe being requested to go look at it at dinnertime. Another example of that would be maybe offering different times. You could say, "How is tomorrow at two o'clock," or, "Is Friday at four o'clock better?"

It's amazing when you give people those options, how they will then bend to help you succeed in maintaining your calendar rather than you succumbing to the most available times that they might offer, even if it's just on a whim.

Erin: When we return with Crystal Hung, Peggy Hill, and Darin Germyn talking leadership, whether you're solo or part of a team. Have you pulled up a virtual chair in the CREA Café today? It's the place to catch up on the latest news from the Canadian Real Estate Association. Bring yourself up to speed on legal matters, tech, and all of the elements that keep you on top of what matters to you. Visit creacafe.ca.

Now back to our three guests from the REALTOR® community: Peggy Hill, Crystal Hung, and Darin Germyn on REAL TIME. Let's move it into the talk of leadership now on REAL TIME. Of course, we are keeping in mind that we have individual REALTORS® who are working for themselves and, of course, their clients. About the leadership aspect of the conversation, Peggy, for example, you have more than 50 people who have your name on their business card. How do you balance the responsibility of leading a team with your own professional growth and achievements as a broker and CEO?

Peggy: I guess part of the beauty of having 50 people under my banner is that I'm not actively selling anymore. I think I found my lane, and it was very difficult to step away from the selling, especially to take that leap of faith and to believe that other people can hold what you hold dear, and they can be as great as you are in front of a client. That sometimes is an issue with REALTORS® is we get our ego fed by our clients telling us how great we are. It's not exactly the easiest thing to give up.

However, I just found different passions. Now I'm the rainmaker. That's my responsibility. My responsibility is to be financially responsible. My responsibility is to be the name out in our community and to make sure that I am the person that I say I am. It isn't easy, either, especially being the face of this company. It was never intentional. It's just back in the day, you were only allowed to call your team by your name. It's a lot. It really is a lot, but I love it.

My REALTORS® are my family. It's not hard for me to put their needs in the front and realize this is what they need. Because I'm able to stay back at the office, I can look at trends. I know what's happening with this market. When you're on the road as a working REALTOR®, sometimes you don't even have time to check your phone for your emails. I have the luxury of staying back and being their backup. When we meet, that's what I do.

This is what I tell them. This is what you need to know. This is what's happened. It works well for us. Again, it's having other people's needs ahead of your own and knowing what they need.

Erin: That's a maturity, Darin, that you talk about in terms of what Peggy has to say. What makes a strong leader in your books?

Darin: A strong leader is, to me, really anticipating the needs of the people that you're leading. If you think of the word leading, it stems from the word lead. When it comes to our clients, they're hiring us to lead them towards the result that they're striving for. Our job is to help them get there, as almost like a child-parent relationship where they're just watching you and wanting to know what the next step is and what the next move is because it's unfamiliar territory to them.

Whether it's with your clients or maybe it's with other REALTORS® or members of your team, they're revolving around you because they know that you're going to help get them to the destination that they most want to get to. Leadership comes with a lot of good, and it comes with a lot of challenge as well. It comes with things like sacrifice and added responsibility and added risk. The benefits of that are the rewards, like both personal and in business.

It comes with lots of opportunity, a sense of accomplishment. Being a true leader is just really being that shining North Star for others and giving the example of what's possible, helping them grow and succeed to get to where they want to go.

Erin: Crystal, how about you?

Crystal: I think the term team building is almost too trendy right now. I think it's perfectly fine if one REALTOR® has a team of professionals helping them. That could be notary, it could be inspectors, it could be lawyers, it could be mortgage brokers. Having that team around you as one REALTOR® is so essential. A lot of us are leading teams, but as a leader of my team and my companies, I don't see my job as to do their job. I see my job as really to craft a vision to help them see where we're all going collectively.

That's really what I focus on, is really communicating what that vision looks like. Whether it's a vision for one client selling a home or a developer selling a project, crafting that vision is the first thing I do. When that's done and clear in my head, I spend most of my day conveying that vision to my team.

Erin: You're more of a conductor, arranger, as opposed to saying to the first violinist, "Move, you're not playing those notes exactly as I would like them to be played or as how I would play them." You are instead overseeing the whole symphony to make the company work, whether it's just you, the soloist out there on the stage, or whether it's an entire orchestra.

Crystal: 100%. I think that's the perfect analogy. We do actually talk about theater production a lot in my team. We have to practice, we have to get the lighting right. We have to get, in our case, the furniture right. We have to get our photography right. It's really that organization of chaos that comes together that delivers results for clients. I really don't think that our job is to do everything. If you look at what our clients' needs are, it's over 200 tasks.

There's no way one person can do it all. If you have the space in your heart to lead a team of REALTORS®, and that might be your path, but if you're just one REALTOR® you want flexibility, you don't want to attach to anyone, you could have a partner that you call on demand to work on things together, if it makes sense. It doesn't always have to be a full-time team that works together forever. It's perfectly fine if you just have a part-time team.

Erin: Peggy, when you began, teams weren't really a thing, were they?

Peggy: 20 years ago, when I started selling real estate, there were no teams. There wasn't a roadmap for me to get there or even to think that I wanted a team. I had no aspirations to run a team. I was on the path to just want to feed my kids. What happened was I just started getting too busy. When I would roll my eyes, when the phone would ring, I thought to myself, this is not the experience I want for my clients. This is me dodging phone calls. This is wrong.

After getting some admin support, and that's when I hired my first buyer's agent, then my second, maybe my third. Then I had someone come with me to listing appointments because those are obviously the last things you give up. That person came with me for almost two years and learned everything I said and delivered to the client the way I wanted it delivered. Then that person showed that person. I'm sure there's different ways to do this, but again, I did not have a roadmap on how to get here. I was just trying to do a good job.

Erin: How did it feel, Peggy, when you would sit in front of one of your team members and say, "You made that happen"? How did that feel as someone who used to be the one that could tell themselves, give themselves that pat on the back?

Peggy: In the beginning, when one of your team members sells a home, and you weren't part of it-- because we all know there's a lot of great highs and a lot of low lows in this business. One of the greatest accomplishments is helping somebody buy and sell a home. When you're no longer involved in that, it's a hit to the ego at first, being completely transparent. It was a little tough to get used to, but then when you look at the bigger picture and how you're able--

I truly believe our team, we care a lot. I'm not saying others don't, but we just have a special way of doing things. I feel like the community would suffer without us. Now I can affect so many more people and help so many more people. Again, it did not start off as me wanting a team. Didn't even know what that was.

Erin: When we come back, we talk about this being the season of giving, but for REALTORS®, as you well know, that's a year round thing. We'll explore that. We hope you're enjoying this conversation. Part of our Working REALTORS® series. If you missed an episode, no problem. Make sure you subscribe. There are 44 other great, insightful, and entertaining real-time chats just waiting for you to enjoy, with a whole bunch more in store. Listen on your favorite app. Thank you for making REAL TIME the go-to podcast for REALTORS® in Canada who are on the move and at and on their way to the top.

Just like our guests today, Peggy Hill, broker and CEO of Barrie Ontario's Peggy Hill team, Darin Germyn, a REALTOR® with the Germyn Group in Surrey and director-at-large with CREA, and Crystal Hung, owner of Icon & Co, named to Business in Vancouver's 40 Under 40 list in 2021. While we're talking about helping others, it's a perfect segue into the additional time that you have all three committed in some way or another to broadening your impact, not just on your community, but, Darin, in your case, the country as well, putting more on yourself to give more of yourself.

Darin, you've held various positions on local, provincial, and national boards and committees, currently a director-at-large with CREA. What draws you to the governance side of real estate? How do you balance your own business interests with serving the real estate community-at-large?

Darin: It's a great story. Like so many volunteers have, I stumbled my way into it through the great mentorship, and coming off our conversation on leadership, of some of the great leaders in my life. It is incredibly addictive for all the right reasons. You get to meet incredible people. That's not just from organized real estate, but even people that you might not ever even have access to. Maybe it's politicians or thought leaders or influencers.

Not only that, real estate can be very lonely, and it can also be mentally challenging. By participating in some of these volunteer activities, it forces you to get outside of your own business to come up for some air, go for a break. Then you get to come back with a refreshed mind. I think the most rewarding part of it, though, Erin, is having your thumbprint on the industry. So often we can find ourselves maybe complaining or feeling a certain way about whatever might be going on in the world or a situation.

Sometimes it's maybe things that we feel like we don't have any control over. This is one thing that I can help influence. We're such an interesting industry full of incredible people. There's always things going on in our industry, whether it's government or policy or public perception. I want to be part of making that better. I want to make it better for everybody from coast to coast. It just gives me an opportunity to be a part of creating something great, rather than having something handed to me that I may or may not agree with.

That's the, I guess, the selfish benefit that comes along with being a volunteer. In terms of balancing your own business, you've got to get really clear on what is going to best serve your clients and cut out a lot of the noise. I think oftentimes there can be a lot of noise and a lot of fluff and a lot of things we do that we think we have to do. It's almost the difference between busy work and productive work.

When you can really figure out what makes you effective, for your clients, for the people you're serving, for the results that you want to produce, and you can cut out a lot of that fluff, it's incredible the amount of time you can get back in your day, the amount of leverage that you can create, and also surrounding yourself with people that can help you create further leverage to make sure that you can accomplish your business goals, your clients' goals, your personal goals, your volunteer goals, all of that. It comes with a great team behind you, and it also just comes with the clarity of what really moves the bar and keeps you getting better and being productive.

Erin: Crystal, you won the 2022 REALTORS Care® Award from the Real Estate Board of Greater Vancouver, and you were one of this year's national nominees. Congratulations. Can you talk a bit about the philanthropic side of your life, please?

Crystal: I started volunteering, I think, when I was 12, 13 years old. I really haven't stopped. I've become more public about that work through the work we did during the pandemic. For me, it is one of the ways for myself to stay grounded. I think when we're successful in our career, in our industry, we get busy, and we forget to look at what's outside of our industry a lot. One of the reasons why I continue to volunteer and give back is it fills my soul, but it also keeps me humble.

The humility I see when I'm volunteering in myself and others, I just feel energized. There are days when I'm so tired, but I will go and make sandwiches with the crew and I feel energized after. After a while, your body just wants to do more of that. I think a lot of us just get busy, and we're so afraid to miss a call or miss an offer for 40 minutes. It sometimes just fills the rest of my week. It's so worth it.

Erin: When you tell your clients you're not available because you're volunteering, it is not virtue signaling. It is the truth, and it tells them who you are. That's just about as powerful as any slogan on a bus bench. That's great.

Crystal: I agree. Yes.

Erin: Peggy, have you got anything to add from your experience on this?

Peggy: I can tell you, for me, personally, I grew up very poor as a child and even as early as a young adult, and then I got into this business, and I've been very successful. I'm still so grateful that I can't stop giving. When somebody needs something, they-- I love the fact that in my community, I'm known as a person you come to when you need something. During the pandemic, we would put out dumpsters in people's neighborhoods, and I was known as a dumpster girl during the pandemic because the local dumps were closed.

There was really not much garbage pickups, so people were home trying to clean out their houses. We just put dumpsters out in neighborhoods and just did that. Again, it's a feel-good. It makes me feel good, and it makes me feel like I'm contributing back to the community that's given myself and my family so much that I'm grateful for.

Erin: What a neat idea.

Peggy: Yes. I'm the dumpster girl.

Erin: Back in a moment with our guests, and we'll be discussing the concept that no is a complete sentence. Something that can be hard to come to terms with. We all agree knowledge is power, from links to CREA Café to newsletters for and about you, plus insightful market analysis. Get the information you need to be knowledgeable and powerful. Find it all at CREA.ca.

Now back to our guests from Surrey, Darin Germyn of The Germyn Group, from Barrie, Peggy Hill, broker and CEO of Peggy Hill team, and from Greater Vancouver, Crystal Hung on REAL TIME. You've said yes to so much, and we're grateful to you, Peggy, Crystal, Darin, for making the time and saying yes to us today on REAL TIME, but when did you start being selective with the work that you took on? I'll start with you, Peggy.

Peggy: I think when I realized that I wasn't able to deliver the service that I got into this business to deliver, so when I wasn't able to call the clients back in time. When I didn't feel like I had the time to really devote to each and every single client, I believe that's when something changed for me.

Erin: Crystal, I love how you bring up the issue of vulnerability when you're saying no. I don't think enough of us are vulnerable in our lives and in our business, and that can be hard. How does it work for you?

Crystal: I think vulnerability is a tool, and it's a beautiful tool that once we understand how to express it, it allows people around you and your community to really know your value and respect your time and your boundaries. For me, I see our work as emotional and energy management. When you start to look at a client, and you say to yourself, "How much energy and how much emotion am I going to manage here?"

You ask yourself, do you have it? If the truth is you don't, you have to look at that and see who's actually a better fit for them. For me, it's not about saying a hard no or having a vacation alert to let everyone know I'm away. It's about just having those conversations with your partner, with your team, with your colleague, and your client to let them know you just need a little break and let them know you're away for a facial, or you are walking your dog and having those real conversations. I find it is so powerful.

Erin: You collect the people who respect your no.

Crystal: I do. Over time, they accumulate.

Erin: Yes, they do. Darin, do you have anything to add? How do you ensure you don't bite off more than you can chew, and why is this so important?

Darin: It's so important, Erin. I've always been getting a little confused with taking on obligations in situations where you can't deliver on the expectation that's been set. As an example, in our industry, if you've got a client that has an expectation, let's say, of the price of their home, and you know as the professional in the situation that you're not able to help them achieve their goals.

Rather than live through a transaction that's draining on you and them due to not being able to meet the expectations, and there's a strong likelihood of maybe that home not even selling, why not just avoid this situation at all? You're actually doing them a service because you're spreading the word for the next person that comes in so they can maybe help them meet the expectation, but you're also saving your sanity and your time, and that time can go to your family or volunteering, or helping another client and being there for them. I think it's so important to really help those that you enjoy, those that appreciate your professional opinion and really value it.

Help those who are going to accept you for who you are. We all bring different strengths and opportunities to the business. Embrace your strengths and work on your shortcomings to become the best version of yourself, to help better serve those that you are serving. One of the best ways you can do that is by being very particular with who you spend your time with, not only in business but also personally as well.

Erin: Respect yourself enough to say no. My husband, through my career of radio and some television, there were a lot of extracurricular things that I felt I had to do. It came down to the question, when I was deciding whether to do it, he said, "When we're on our way to the event, are you going to be saying, why did I say yes?" It just puts such a different kind of a filter on it. Put yourself ahead to that point. Whether it's in a business transaction or whether you're getting set to show up and shine to something, how are you going to feel when you're on the way there? That's my two cents worth rounded up to a nickel.

Darin: That's such a great point. If you're not excited to show up, if you're not excited to deliver a result, if you're not excited to make that phone call, you've got to look a little deeper and see what's causing you to feel that way. Maybe you're not the best fit for that situation because you're not as committed to it because your heart is not in it because you don't feel that you can help them achieve what they're looking for. That's okay. You need to be comfortable with that to know that you can't help everybody, but really put your focus, time, and energy into those that you can help.

Erin: Like you said, there could be somebody else who's a better fit for it, so send it their way. Let them have at it, and you'll find something that's better for you. I am so thrilled to have just listened to a keynote speech from each of you. I think it was fantastic, and thank you for inviting me to MC it. Now you have just done your keynotes, Peggy Crystal, Darin, on balancing your personal and professional life. Starting with you, Crystal, what would the last line of your presentation be?

Crystal: I started this career, this business with this concept in mind, which was, you're here to sell trust, you're not here to sell real estate. Trust is everything in real estate.

Erin: Nothing else matters. Peggy, what are your words of wisdom that you're leaving us with in this keynote speech?

Peggy: No pressure.

Erin: None at all.

Peggy: I think it goes back to our core values. Our slogan as a team is real people, real service, real results. I believe when you're being real, that's the best part of you. You check in with yourself, and that's what we live and die by over here. Just be real. Be real with your clients, be real with yourself, and nothing but good things will happen.

Erin: Last word to Darin, before we turn off the lights in this virtual auditorium, last lines of your keynote speech.

Darin: Well, how do you follow up with something that sounds intelligent when Peggy and Crystal had such good answers? I'm going to try my best. I'm going to steal a line from my coach and a mentor of mine, Richard Robbins. When it comes to finding balance, I think it's important for the listener to remember that it's your business. That means it's your game to play. You get to decide the rules.

It's your choice and your prerogative to create a business that supports the life that you want to live and help you become the person that you want to be. If you keep that in mind, you will be successful, and you'll find the balance in your life that you're looking for.

Erin: Thank you. Thank you, Darin. Thank you, Peggy. Thank you, Crystal. We are all giving you a standing ovation great keynote, but more importantly, just a super conversation today. Thanks for sharing your wisdom and your insight, and thank you for saying yes.

Peggy: Thank you.

Crystal: Thank you, Erin.

Darin: Thank you so much.

Erin: You take care. Thank you so much for joining us for Episode 45 of REAL TIME, a production of Alphabet® Creative. Rob Whitehead at Real Family Productions is our sound engineer. I'm your host, Erin Davis. We're so glad you joined us here. A reminder to subscribe so you don't miss one episode. Thanks for listening, and we'll talk to you here next time on REAL TIME.

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Every REALTOR® needs to negotiate, whether it’s with a client, another agent, a brokerage, or otherwise. But it doesn’t need to be as stressful as it seems.

On this episode of REAL TIME, we speak with Fotini Iconomopoulos, a Fortune 500 negotiator, author, and educator whose advice you won’t soon forget. From engaging your mental pause button to psyching yourself up, get inspired to boost your competitive edge using Fotini’s unconventional principles of negotiation.

Transcript

Erin Davis: Hi, I'm Erin Davis, your host of REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS® by REALTORS®, brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA. We've an amazing episode in store for you today. Fotini Iconomopoulos is an internationally recognized high-stakes negotiator and instructor of MBA positions at the Schulich School for Business, and the author of the book, Say Less, Get More, Unconventional Negotiation Techniques to Get What You Want.

Throughout her career, she's inspired Fortune 500 leaders, teams, and entrepreneurs to achieve their business goals, increase profitability, and gain a competitive edge using the principles of persuasion. On this episode of Real Time, Fotini shares tips and strategies to help realtors do the same, and yes, there's even an exercise we get to do together. Let's go. Oh, thank you so much for joining us today, Fotini, and I love even your backstory. As a kid, you were known for being a negotiator. Can you set the table for us here today? That's a wonderful tale.

Fotini Iconomopoulos: It was my dad who sort of foreshadowed an entire career unknowingly, and so as a kid when you grow up in the big fat Greek wedding household, so strict Greek father, and as a child I wanted to do all the things I was told I couldn't do, or the patriarchal society told me I couldn't do, so you have to negotiate your way out of the house. It got to the point where he would say to me, we don't need to hear from your negotiator.

It was cousins and sisters and all these other people who would push me to the front and go, you ask them. Maybe it was because I'm a little more assertive, or maybe I was the youngest and the cute one. For some reason, I was always at the forefront of whatever needed to get done in order to work our way out of the house. Here we are today.

Erin: Yes. It's so amazing how so often as a child, your personality or your traits or your habits then can portend who you are going to be. Here you are now, as I mentioned in the intro, you're recognized worldwide as the high-stakes negotiator and instructor, and of course, author of the amazing book, Say Less, Get More. I'm just wondering, how did you get from that child to where you are now? We're going to have to do the X-length version, or Twitter as we used to know it. Just how does one become a negotiator?

Fotini: It was a little bit of nature and a little bit of nurture. I think I was probably born with a little fire under my belly. Then part of it was also just wanting more. When you are constantly pursuing what is that next big achievement, you don't want anything to hold you back. I ended up pursuing a degree in arts and science because I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up. Then I ended up getting an MBA in organizational behavior because I thought, well, I don't have the formal business education yet.

I was recruited into companies like L'Oreal, where I was negotiating with Walmart on a regular basis. That was an amazing training ground because they're known to be some of the toughest buyers in the industry. Eventually a consulting company that was hired to train me to be a better negotiator went, you should really be doing what we do. I was like, yes, sure, someday when I've got more experience because I hadn't even hit 30 yet.

They said, no, seriously, you should be doing what we do. I joined this British company, and I was traveling all over the world. All of a sudden, I was training everybody from CEOs of massive oil and gas companies to junior account managers and some of my former employers. Then clients kept going, well, it's great that you trained our team, but we have a billion dollars on the line or we have a hundred million on the line. What do we do? What do we say?

It sort of evolved into this practice within the practice. I found myself really enjoying it and getting even more immersed in the research behind what makes people do what they do. Then that led to teaching at the Schulich School of Business where I teach MBA negotiations occasionally and guest lecturing everywhere else. Then Harper-Collins going, we think you have a book in you. I went, okay. I just kept saying yes to these things because people started to recognize some of the skills that I had. I also kept nurturing a lot of those skills just because it was a big passion and interest for me.

Erin: Let me just backtrack a little bit before we talk about the present and the future. You mentioned international negotiations and we will find out what a negotiation actually is, Fotini, but do Canadians negotiate differently? Does that stereotype of us being more polite actually show up at the table?

Fotini: I wish I had formal statistics to back this up, but anecdotally, I can tell you that there's a difference when I train or consult folks in Canada versus in other parts of the world, particularly when I compare to our US neighbors. I find that negotiators in Canada are less assertive. We are very polite as a society. I think that's pretty stereotypical of Canadians. We say I'm sorry a lot, which doesn't help in negotiations because we also know that when people are conciliatory in negotiations, that makes the other party just more aggressive and it can put us into a position of weakness. A lot of times I see Canadians backing off of stuff where there is a different appetite when I'm working with folks outside of Canada.

Erin: That is interesting. How do you define negotiation? What is negotiation? Let's get down to basics here.

Fotini: I'd say most people assume that negotiation is two people beating each other up, yet that is a common misconception. All it is two people trying to reach an agreement. It's two people who actually want to find a solution together, whether they realize it consciously or subconsciously. If we didn't have to have this conversation, we'd already be in agreement. It doesn't have to be combative, it's just a conversation full of curiosity and hopefully some empathy in the mix as well.

Erin: When you talk to groups, you have an exercise. We're all warmed up. Would you take us into one of your exercises?

Fotini: Yes. This is one where I wish I could see your face right now, Erin, because all I want is all of the listeners to take their dominant index finger and then I want you to draw the capital letter E for empathy on your forehead. Draw the capital letter E on your forehead. Then once you've done that, there's no right or wrong answer here, by the way. This is just a little exercise about where your brain tends to go first. This is your autopilot mode. You either drew it one of two ways. Either you drew it so that if I was looking at you, I could read it perfectly, it would make total sense to my eyes. Or you drew it so that your own eyeballs would make sense of it, but the observer would see it looking backwards to them. Now, one of these E's is associated with higher levels of power in the workplace. One of these two E's is associated with people who are more powerful, more senior in the workplace. If you think it through, the E that is written for your own eyes means you are most likely automatically primed to think about your own objectives. That's what gets people to the top of their fields. Those who draw the E for their own eyes tend to be more senior in the workplace.

Now that doesn't mean that if you're drawing the E for me and others who are reading it that you're never going to be a success. That's totally not true. I did tell you that there's no right or wrong answer here. What it simply means is this is your autopilot mode. We're all intelligent enough. We're all in control enough to be able to override that mode. If you are drawing the E for me and others who are reading it, then you need to pause to ask yourself, "Hey, am I putting my needs on the back burner for the sake of others?"

If you are drawing the E for your own eyes, this is not a guarantee that you're going to be super successful in negotiations. Because I have seen so many people, I've done this exercise for thousands and thousands of people. I even included it in the book. I've seen plenty of folks over the years draw the E for themselves, but still never become the senior leaders they wish to be. Never become those massive successes they want to be.

The reason being, they have forgotten what the reflection of that E is like. They're forgetting about what's in it for the other person. What is that other person going through? Why would they care to listen to me? If you are the person listening to this and drawing the E for yourself, congratulations, you have the ability to consider your own objectives, but you need to pause and consider what's in it for them. Otherwise, why would they bother listening to you? Why would they even engage in this conversation with you?

Again, if you're the person who is drawing the E for the observer, for others before yourself, then it's time to make sure you pause and make sure that you don't become what I call a victim of your own empathy. You have to pause and ask yourself such an important question, which is, what can they afford to do for me? You're not asking them to go bankrupt. You're not asking them to do something that's going to get them into massive trouble. You're just asking, what is in the realm of possibility that these people can do for me? How can we make this a collaborative exchange rather than making it all about them? If you're the other E, then making it all about yourself.

In order to be an effective negotiator, you need to make sure you're keeping both of those E's in balance. That's what makes for a great negotiator.

Erin: That was incredible. Thanks for sharing that with us. My E was facing outward. This is the thing about talking with you and about your book. It does not only encompass the world of negotiation. It encompasses so many parts of our lives, because when you think about it, whether you're a realtor and you're trying to get your clients to be happy, or whether you're having interpersonal relationships in your own life, or you're trying to maybe get the best price on a refrigerator, negotiation is so much a part of our everyday lives. I don't know how much people realize that, Fotini.

Fotini: I hope they're starting to realize it because I meet so many people all the time who say, oh, I don't negotiate. I'm not a salesperson, but do you have children? Do you talk to people? Do you have a dog even? Are you interacting with people? Even if you're getting on a streetcar or a subway, you're negotiating for your physical space without even opening your mouth. We have these interactions all the time, but we need to make sure that we're balancing the needs of others as well as our own needs in these processes.

Erin: I love, too, that a lot of your message is about putting yourself in the shoes of others, which of course is a great life motto anyway, but how that works in negotiation. I think it goes back to the E and the empathy and what's in it for them while keeping in mind what's in it for you at the same time. It's so important.

Fotini: Yes. No one's going to want to work with you if you're not considering what's in it for them. You're not going to hit all the records of being the world's greatest realtor and selling everything and listing everything if you're not wondering, well, why would they want to, why would they want to work with me? Why would they want to list it at this price at this time and so on and so forth. You really have to consider everybody's needs, not just your own, in order to be successful.

Erin: Back to Fotini Iconomopoulos in a moment. We all want to be liked, right? She'll point out where that may be tripping us up. We're glad you're liking our podcast and we have 43 other insightful episodes just waiting for you to dig in and be inspired. There's a new one every month and we're grateful to have you joining us here in our REAL TIME podcast community. Now back to Fotini Iconomopoulos, world-renowned speaker and author of the fantastic book, Say Less, Get More. Unconventional negotiation techniques to get what you want on REAL TIME.

You have said that being likable during a negotiation can be an advantage. Now can you unpack for us the correlation between likability and influence?

Fotini: Likability is a piece of influencing. If I don't like you, I'm not going to want to work with you. I'm not going to allow you to influence my decision maker. In fact, I'm going to actively resist trying to work with you or trying to allow you to influence my decision-making process. The fact of the matter is, though, every single one of us at some subconscious level, we all want to be liked. This goes back to our primitive cave person ancestry. We were meant to travel the world in packs. That's why we were not surviving as lone rangers. Because of that, we have this innate need to be liked.

One of the things that I see happening, the big mistake that I see happening when it comes to negotiation and influencing, is we try to buy that ability. I'll just do that little thing because I don't want them to hate me. I'll just let them have this extra little bit that they're going after because I want to protect the relationship. I want to be able to influence them in the long term, so I'll let them have this one win now, but that can get really dangerous because it can set a very dangerous precedent for us.

It's the same reason why if you spend time around children, the world's greatest negotiators, they will be relentless about getting what they want. If you set a dangerous precedent and trying to buy their likeability, you end up with a really spoiled kid. There's a really cool study that was done specifically around likeability and negotiation where they took two different groups of Ivy League MBA students and they put them into two different groups with two different sets of instructions. They told the first group, I want you to get down to negotiating right away. Time is money. They told the second group, I want you to spend a few minutes just getting to know each other first.

In that first group who got down to negotiating immediately, 55% of them managed to close a deal. Now that's not too shabby. That is the majority, but in the group that got to know each other first, 90, that's nine zero percent managed to close deals. Some people are probably thinking, sure, they made friends. They probably wanted to be liked so much that they sweetened the deal in some way. We know that's not true because of that 90% group, they ended up closing deals that were 12% greater in value. They ended up closing more deals and they ended up closing better deals all because they spent a few minutes before the negotiation even started just getting to know each other.

When I get to know you, you have more influence over how I want to steer my dollars, how I want to steer my energy, my decision making, and so on. According to persuasion theory, there's a few things that really stand out in terms of being able to influence people. It's not by giving them everything that they want. It's not by sweetening the deal. It is by doing simple things like finding something in common, building a bridge between you, removing some of that fear of the unknown from people's brain. It is finding a compliment, a genuine compliment for people because we in our subconscious brain can suss out the slimy, fake compliments that are out there, we can sense those things. Then the last thing is we like cooperative people. We don't want to be pushed around by someone who says it's my way or the highway. We don't like aggressive negotiators. We like working with people who seem familiar to us and who seem genuine in how they handle themselves. That's why I've always taken a collaborative approach to negotiation wherever possible. That is going to gain you far more influence. That's the likability factor that many of us find ourselves in the crux of being stuck between being likable enough and not being so likable that we get taken advantage of. It's that buying likability factor that's going to land you in the taken advantage of category.

Erin: You want to be the person people want to work with. You, I imagine you've talked about living around or working around the world. Do you do your own negotiations like in, say, real estate transactions?

Fotini: Happily, I do not. I say this as somebody who I'm very comfortable negotiating. I know, however, that when it comes to negotiating, information is power. I know that when it comes to specifically real estate, there's going to be stuff I don't know. I'm not an expert in that industry. I'm an expert in the principles of negotiation, but I'm not an expert in the specifics around what is required in order to create a really great deal. I know, just like everybody else does, that you need to have an expert who's going to be able to represent you.

That being said, I am a tough customer. I have an agent that I've been working with for years. We've done at least five transactions together. I trust that he knows what he needs to know about the geographies that I'm going into about what's going on in the market and all that kind of stuff that I don't have the time or energy to be an expert at because I'm too busy doing other things for a living.

We get on the same page about what should the strategy be. Should it be listing at a certain price and trying to get somewhere else? Should there be a decision about when to time it and how to do it? Those are all things that we need to get on the same page about because I'm an expert in strategy. He's going to have the information required in order to make it a super successful negotiation.

I would make sure that all of the listeners who are paying attention are also making sure that they can communicate that to the folks that they're dealing with. That you're not insulting people by saying, hey, I'm an expert at this. I know you're really great at this other stuff. I want to make sure I help you get to the best possible deal based on these unique circumstances we find ourselves in.

Erin: Let's talk about high stakes negotiations, Fotini, which, of course, are very relatable for realtors. What are some of the best ways to prepare before a big negotiation?

Fotini: There's two ways of going about it. First is preparing mentally, and the other is making sure you prepare tactically. The mental piece is, you can have as much preparation as you want, all of the research in the world and all of that kind of stuff. You can be the best at preparing and having all the market data and analysis. If your head is not in the game, then things are going to fall apart. Because you have the ability to either psych yourself up or psych yourself out.

When it comes to getting there in the moment, when you're about to talk to a client for the first time, or you're about to talk to the other agent for a first time, or you're about to come up with what is that listing price that I'm going to put on paper, or that proposal, that's when I need everybody to just take a relaxing breath. Maybe it's breathing in for four, holding for six, and out for eight. That meditative breath is going to make a world of difference in terms of the clarity that you have. Because when we're really anxious, and negotiation makes a lot of people anxious, all the rational energy leaves our brain, and it goes to our limbs, and that's what makes our heart start to beat a little bit faster, and our palms start to get a bit sweaty, and our breathing starts to get a bit more shallow.

That's what makes you have those moments that go, oh my God, is that what I just said? Why didn't I say this other thing? Why couldn't I think of that in the moment? In the moment, we need to clear our heads and make sure we collect our thoughts and give our brain the space to do its job. Now in order to get there, we need to prepare. We need to prepare what is that market data? What is that analysis I have to have done? What else is going on in this neighborhood? All of the wonderful things that I'm sure everybody in the audience knows how to do, as well as maybe even rehearsing what is going to come out of our mouths.

If you're pitching a client for the first time, if you're going to say something to a client that they're not going to like, maybe you want to practice that in the car before you get out of the car. Say it in front of a mirror or something like that to make sure you're giving yourself some of that muscle memory that is going to make it a little bit more comfortable when it's coming out of your mouth for the very first time and a little less foreign to your brain in the moment so that you don't have that moment of fight or flight kicking in when it's time to speak to that client.

Erin: The sound of silence. You could write a song about it, but it's something we often try to avoid and it can be used to your advantage. We'll dig into that in just a moment. In talking with Fotini, not only was I grateful to have read her book, but I just wanted to tell everyone I know about it. That's how everybody at the Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA, feels about REAL TIME. We invite you to like and share this podcast with everyone, among your realtor community and elsewhere. Anybody you think might also gain some wisdom from the words of Fotini Iconomopoulos, and thank you. Now back to our guest, educator, negotiator, renowned speaker, and author of Say Less, Get More on REAL TIME. When you say less, get more, which is a great book title, one of the things a lot of people are uncomfortable with is silence. That can be perceived in many different ways. Let's talk about the silence between the notes in the concerto of negotiation. Let's talk about that and how important it can be and how you can use silence as a power tool.

Fotini: I have such a big smile on my face because I've never heard anybody describe it so eloquently like the notes in a concerto before. I love that.

Erin: Thank you.

Fotini: I'm going to steal that. The beauty of silence is we all feel uncomfortable, or at least most people feel very uncomfortable with silence until you get used to it. Now if you're somebody who's listened to this podcast or read the book or seen the research around what silence can do for you, you will notice that they're going to be far more uncomfortable with it than you are, because at least you're familiar with this concept of saying less and getting more.

Now most of the people that I interact with go, but if I don't say something, if I'm not quick on my feet, then people are going to think I'm stupid. That is not true. They're going to think you're stupid if you're thinking and talking at the same time and having this verbal nonsense come out of your mouth because you're trying to get through this garbled mess of what is my brain even trying to spit out right now. You're going to look far more confident when you can say something like, I need a moment to think that through, or give me a second to make sure I'm giving you the right information, or I want to make sure I'm as crystal clear as possible.

Let me just think through what it is that you need from me right now. Any one of those phrases is a way to frame the silence. If you're super uncomfortable and you are worried about looking stupid because you're too quiet, then take ownership of that pause. Show up and say, I need some time. You're not asking for permission. You're not going to say, can I have a minute? You're going to say, you know what? I need a minute to think that through.

Now all of a sudden you look so confident, you look so credible and so sure of yourself. At the same time, the person on the receiving end of that statement is waiting on the edge of their seat to go, ooh, whatever comes out of her mouth next is going to be super good because she's taking the time to listen to me and consider my needs. Man, is that going to be great. I'm going to challenge her a lot less. All because you took that quiet, confident moment and you framed it as something that you own versus asking for permission or feeling conciliatory in that moment.

Erin: I think it projects a respect as well. It's like, I hear you and we all want to be heard. I hear you and I want to contemplate that. It is to me, it's a sign of respect.

Fotini: Absolutely. It's also a sign of acknowledgement, right? You are acknowledging the other person. You're not ignoring them. It's not, hey, did you hear what I said? Are you going to answer me? It's just saying, I need a moment to think this through. You're commanding that space rather than allowing them to steamroll all over you either.

Erin: Can you do it physically? Again, putting to use the suggestion that you just made where you don't say, could I please leave the room and get some water? Or can my client and I discuss this? Just say, we're going to need a moment to go and have some refreshments and we'll reconvene in 10, 15 minutes or whatever. Is it okay to actually physically leave the room if that comes to that?

Fotini: Absolutely. I think if you're framing it in a collaborative, polite way, then why not? Why would it be impolite? If you were to be in the other person's shoes, would they see it as impolite to move things forward a little bit faster simply by having a private conversation? Because I think it would look more rude if you're whispering back and forth at one another sitting at the table. It looks more suspicious and furtive if you're doing that versus saying, you know what, we're going to have a quick conversation so we can speed this up. We're just going to step out of the room for a moment and figure out what needs to happen next in order to help move us forward.

I don't see there being anything suspicious about that. I think it looks a lot more furtive when you're just trying desperately to speak in code at the same table or in the same room.

Erin: All right. We've talked about physically removing our bodies from the room, but let's talk about the language of the body and the physical presence while you're in the room. I think you've got some great ideas on this, Fotini.

Fotini: Yes. We communicate in a number of different ways without even opening our mouth. According to communication theory, a third of our message comes in the words that we choose, a third comes in the sound of our voices, and a third comes in your body language. What are you saying before you're actually physically saying it? When it comes to taking up space, there's a really fantastic book and accompanying TED Talk by Dr. Amy Cuddy called Presence. She talks a lot about power poses. I'm sure folks out there listening are familiar with the Wonder Woman pose, my personal favorite. If you've ever run a race, the first thing you want to do when you cross the finish line is put your hands in the air in a big V for victory. Any of those types of poses that take up more physical space are going to not only send a message to the other party that you deserve to be there and that you own that space, but also it gives your brain a chance to catch up to what your body is telling others.

Then what happens is, according to research on this, within two minutes, anybody who adopts one of those power poses feels much more confident. As a result of feeling much more confident, there's plenty of research out there that tells us you get better results. If you are sitting across from them, it could feel adversarial versus sitting adjacent to them, like on a corner, it could feel like you're working together.

Maybe when you're sitting with a client, you want to sit next to them instead of across from them so they know that you're on the same team. Maybe if you're sitting across from someone with whom you're entering into this more competitive negotiation, you want them to sit across from you so that they can see the look on your face when you look shocked and appalled at what number is going to come out of their mouth. Or you want to make sure that you are clearly in their line of sight when you are delivering a crystal clear, incredible message.

Where you sit, how you sit, how much physical space you take up, all of these things make a world of difference in terms of how you are received and also how your brain is ready to catch up to it too.

Erin: Does it differ when you're negotiating on someone's behalf?

Fotini: It does and it doesn't. The principles remain the same. However, the benefit of negotiating on behalf of someone else is that you get to take the emotional piece out of it. It is much easier to negotiate on behalf of someone else than it is to negotiate for yourself. In fact, there's a lot of research out there that says women will negotiate harder for others than they will for themselves because there's no fear of repercussion. There's no fear of looking greedy. You know that you're doing it for someone else. It's a selfless thing. When you are not as closely linked to that outcome, then you can have more clarity. The fight or flight response isn't nearly as strong.

One of the reasons why I am brought in by so many corporations, I work with a lot of Fortune 500 types of companies. They're full of very bright people. I know because I trained many of them. Yet they bring me in to help them on these high stakes negotiations because sometimes they just need that objective clarity because they're too close to whatever's going on and it's hard to disentangle their emotions from the outcome.

I can be that voice of reason that goes, hey, remember when you said this is what you want to accomplish? Here's how it looks like you can do that based on the facts as opposed to based on my emotional outcome tied to this. The same is true for anybody who's representing a client in negotiation. Now, maybe if you're good friends with your client, you're a little tighter connected to the outcome. The truth of the matter is, you're still not nearly as connected as if they were doing it for themselves.

Erin: It sounds like you want empathy, but not to get too emotionally invested. That also sounds like a really good reason to have a negotiator like you on your side, because as we know, the real estate transaction can be steeped in emotions because it's not just the biggest purchase most people will make in their lives, but there's the emotion. This is the house where I raised my kids. We put so much work into that kitchen and you aren't able to step back and have the perspective. Really, that's where a good realtor comes in too. They know their clients' needs and wants and feelings but are able to have that little bit of stepping back as well.

Fotini: Yes. That's a critical piece is that you need to look like that objective, credible person. It's okay to acknowledge that they have invested a lot of time and energy and years into this home, but you have to be really careful of acknowledging without necessarily agreeing with them. You have to also be careful of the fact that they're going to be very defensive because they are so emotionally involved in this.

If you go in there and say, I think your kitchen is not worth that much, they're going to go, yes, well, I'll tell you what I think. The second you're perceived as giving a feeling or opinion about something, now all of a sudden they're going to get really defensive and they're going to mirror that behavior right back. If you can come in with these two magic words, instead of I think, if they were to be replaced with something as simple as based on, based on the comparables in this neighborhood, based on similar kitchens, based on my experience in the last 10 houses that I have listed, now, all of a sudden, you're coming across as credible and not personally attacking them with just an opinion.

It's much harder for them to argue with based on. It sounds like, hey, this is set in stone third party stuff, as opposed to I'm personally attacking you. It's not personal when you say based on. When you say, I think, now that's a personal opinion, and I'm going to fire right back with my own personal opinion. If you want to make sure you avoid arguing with your client or even the folks across the table, that based on is going to be critical.

Erin: That's brilliant. Thank you for that. When realtors are talking with their clients, you make a clear delineation between being curious and being condescending. Is that where based on comes in as well? Is that sort of a subtopic?

Fotini: I think it could come in very handy right there as well. Because no one wants to be talked down to. We have so much information at our fingertips. In Google now, you can Google a million different people and reviews are out there and so on. What you say and do is going to be out there forever. People will give you a review, they will talk about you, they will be on chat boards and Reddit threads and so on and so forth. That condescension is going to be something that we have to be very careful to avoid.

That being said, you also want to be perceived as this expert, this person who they're not going to push back every single idea. They're not going to overlook you for someone else who's a family friend who may not actually be getting them the best possible deal because they're doing this friendly thing that is not necessarily going to be in their best interest. This person doesn't have anything to gain if they're a family friend. If they're leaving that commission on the table, well, then they're not as invested in it and they're probably not going to get them the best rate. They just want to get this done.

There's all of these things to juggle and that based on can help remove some of that opinion. That likability factor is going to be really important here too that I mentioned earlier. Are you finding something in common with them? Are you paying them a genuine compliment? Are you doing something like that before you start negotiating with them, before you get into business to put them at ease and make them think that, hey, this is someone I enjoy spending this much time with, that I trust to put this biggest transaction of my life into their hands. Because for most people, that's what this is.

Erin: What to do when the temperature is rising just a little too high in a negotiating situation. Some great tips are just ahead. For more great tips, whether you're just starting out or are a seasoned veteran, there's always information to add to your professional toolbox at CREA Cafe. From legal matters to navigating technology, it's all there for you simply by clicking CREACafe.ca.

Now back to our author and guest, Fotini Iconopoulos, on Real Time. How do you manage things when emotions start to get high during a negotiation? Fotini, I know you've seen this on the regular. How do you manage emotions? Say for your client, for example, you can't control what people across the table are doing unless you say, we're going to need a minute or take down the temperature or whatever. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so tell us.

Fotini: That's really the most obvious answer is just taking that pause, that moment to say less, giving people a timeout. It's like when you're dealing with a toddler, and I use a lot of children's analogies in my work because adults have just as bad temper tantrums, if not worse than children. We need to give adults a timeout the same way we have with kids too. Just saying, hey, let's take a minute to think about this, and maybe stepping out of the room, or maybe going, well, let's work this out. Let's see what those numbers mean to us. Something as simple as that can make a world of difference for folks.

Sometimes you may have to do that for yourself too. Sometimes it's because maybe that person across the table is so antagonistic and condescending that you're like, I want to strangle them on behalf of my client. Maybe you need to take that meditative breath in the moment before you say something you might regret. I also tell people to write it down. Maybe you need a moment to think it through, have it physically come out of your hand, write it down, and then look at it visually and go, is that really the thing that I want to say? That can slow down your brain, your tongue, and what comes out of your mouth, rather than tripping all over yourself or tripping all over your tongue.

Erin: Yes, it's a good idea because we don't all need the Aaron Sorkin walking, talking script in order to be successful. One of the tips in Say Less, Get More, unconventional ways to get what you want, is that you don't have to talk or be fast. What are some of the standout or unconventional strategies, Fotini, that most people, we just don't consider?

Fotini: One of the silliest ones that we don't think about, and the most obvious to me, but maybe not obvious to everybody else, is ask a question. Even if the answer, if you need that time to calm your brain down, to buy you some time to think, ask the other party a question, get them to do the talking. Not only is that you saying less, but it's you getting more. It's more information and if information is power where else are you going to get it but straight from them? Ask them a question about what are some of their motivators? Ask them a question about where does that number come from? Ask them a question about why is it that they want to do these things in this particular way or what is it that led them to that conclusion?

That will start to create a change in the environment. You're going to be coming forth with more curiosity. It's going to seem less adversarial, it's going to buy your brain a lot more time to think and also process this information that's coming across the table.

Even though it feels like you're giving the microphone to the other party, the truth is the person who asks the questions is in charge of the conversation. Because you're steering the conversation in the direction that you want it to go. You're digging up the information that you want, that power that you want by asking appropriate questions that can give you everything that you need in order to be successful.

Erin: Are there strategies for both parties getting what they want? What tips can you use if it comes to encourage a compromise? Like especially as it applies to the real estate world, Fotini.

Fotini: Well, there's a lot of things that are going to require compromise at some point in our world, but the more you can create value, the more creative and complex you can make things. Again, it sounds a little counterintuitive. Like why would we invite complexity? But it's because the more creative you get, that's not simple. That is creating value. It's like the cliche value pie. The bigger we make the pie, the more value there is to go around and divide up, but what else can we put in the pie? Can we get creative with things like closing dates? Can we get creative with things like payment terms? Can we get creative about other ways to incorporate what would be important to one party or to another?

I remember the last time I sought a house, it was a quaint little neighborhood and I bought it from a woman who was twice my age and it was a very emotional thing for her to let go of. I told her she could come by for tea whenever she wanted and see the house and ask questions about it and so on. That was so reassuring to her. She wanted to make sure she sold the house to me.

I know this sounds perverse to all these people who are listening in the audience right now. It seemed bizarre to me too. I wrote about it in the book because it seems so crazy to me that this would actually happen, but this is an emotional security that this person wanted. It cost me nothing. It was no dollars in her pocket. It was just what is valuable to this individual, and we got creative about it.

Erin: Did she come by for tea?

Fotini: We exchanged some emails. She asked me some questions about it and then in the end she never came by. I had that house for four and a half years and it just never happened.

Erin: Well, she just needed to know that the door was open. Really that's an important part of negotiation as well, but what happens, Fotini, if it looks like the door has closed? How do you wake up a negotiation if a little bit of time has gone by? Do you text and go, "Hey, we're still here." What do you do? How do you kind of reignite a talk that seems to have stalled?

Fotini: Well, hopefully, you've prevented it from getting down that path using some of these techniques, but inevitably it's going to happen from time to time. This is one of the only instances where I will encourage people to ask a yes or no question. In fact, I will encourage them to ask a no-question, because, usually, I'm telling people ask a question that's going to open up a conversation, but if they're not open to having the conversation, maybe there's a different way to trigger their subconscious brain. You might want to email them or call them, hopefully. I prefer to do things not over email.

I know it sounds super unconventional to everybody who's listening because we do everything over text and email, but hopefully, you can ask them a question like, "Hey, did you move on? Did you find another house?" If they say, no, I didn't, they're going to go, "Oh, no, we didn't." We haven't had a chance to, or things got away from us, or we were just really busy with this other offer or whatever it is. If they say, yes, we did, well, then now your curiosity is done.

You can case close and move on, but usually when you get that no response, that's going to provoke the conversation to start all over again. This is the type of stuff I even use with my own clients when, or people use with me because I get so busy and it's so hard to read all of the emails that are coming in and someone says, "Hey, did you forget about me? No, no, I didn't. I've just been really busy and now, all of a sudden, I'm kick-starting that conversation again.

Erin: When you talk about your reticence to use digital communications, is that partly because it's so hard to gauge somebody's tone of voice or body language? Do these tools work against us when we're trying to negotiate?

Fotini: Absolutely. I mentioned earlier that a third of your message comes through in your words. If you are doing something over text or email, that means there's a 67% chance you could be misinterpreted. If you're doing it on the phone, there still leaves a 33% chance that you could be misinterpreted. If you have a dry sense of humor, if you are somebody who is sarcastic, those things do translate well over email and text. That is the reason why we have emojis. Even those are often misinterpreted.

What do those two hands together mean? Some people think it's prayer hands, apparently the origin of it is a high five. What are you sending to people? Do they even know? Those are the things that I don't want to be misinterpreted. That condescension that we mentioned earlier, is that what's coming across in your emails? Is it coming across as cold and aloof? Is it coming across as super eager and desperate? Those are the things that are difficult to read. You don't want to leave them up to chance and misinterpretation if possible.

Erin: You have a rule of thumb about Post-it.

Fotini: I do. One of the things that I tell my high stakes clients, the folks I'm helping through these really intense negotiations where they're sitting in these boardrooms, is you can send a really quick message to somebody across the table or under the table with a post-it note that says, "Pause, we need a time out," or whatever. If you find yourself having to fill a Post-it with a paragraph's worth of words, this is the time to take a time out.

Take a breather, think it through, because by the time you write it and by the time they interpret what the heck you've just written, there's miscommunication galore even on your own team, between you and your client, or between you and your colleague. Take that time out to have the conversation before you get wrapped up in some more misinterpretation, even on your own side of the table.

Erin: Great advice. I would have the Post-its just so that I could mark parts of your book that I want to go back to because this has been an amazing conversation. As we wrap it up finally, Fortini, what are some of the most effective ways to be persuasive as a leader? What strategies can you use to help inspire and influence your team?

Fotini: Well, this is one of my favorite pieces of advice to give folks who are influencing others on a daily basis. It starts with a piece of research that I came across that came from Dr. Kelly McGonigal. Her book is called The Upside of Stress. They did this study at Harvard where, in 2013, they took a bunch of people and they made them sing in front of a group. Now, you and I are no stranger to a microphone, so I think we would have a good time if we went out for karaoke.

Not everybody feels that way. I believe microphones are the number two fear in America after death. I'm told it's number three in Australia after spiders. What that means for people is that evokes a lot of anxiety the same way negotiation does. What they found in this study is they separated everybody into three groups with three different sets of instructions. They told the first group, regardless of how you're feeling, I want you to tell yourself, "I am anxious." They told the second group, "I want you to tell yourself I am excited," and they told the third group nothing at all. That was our control group.

What they found was the group who told themselves, I am excited, outperformed the other two groups. We know it wasn't because they were better singers, because they also outperformed them on a math test and a speech test in addition to the pitch test measured by a computer. Overall, they had a better performance. They changed their brains, they psyched themselves up, all because they told themselves, I'm excited. They gave themselves this little pep talk.

Now imagine what that can do for the people around you. If you are a leader, if you have people reporting into you, if you have people on your team, or maybe even with your own clients, if you want to lead them to a successful outcome, what if you were to say to them, "I am so excited for you." "I am so excited for what the sale of your home is going to open up for you in terms of your future and what else that's going to unlock." "I am so excited for how this client is going to respond to all of this hard work you put into this proposal." "I am so excited to see you flourish in your new home when we get this other party to accept this proposal."

Now, all of a sudden, those other folks are going to perform differently. They're going to respond differently to you and your leadership, all because you got their brains performing at a much better rate. They're now not allowing all that crazy, irrational energy to take over because you just created that excitement for them. You can do it for yourself and improve your own performance, but you can also improve it for others. You can create a lot less resistance just by getting them excited about what is at the forefront of this transaction.

Erin: Well, we were so excited to be talking with you today and it was amazing. Thank you so much for your time, your insight, your wisdom, and just for a great conversation. Do you ever lose an argument at home?

Fotini: If you ask my dad, he might have a different response. Generally speaking, I try not to argue at home. In fact, people usually say to me, "Oh, your life must be so exciting. It must be like that show Suits." I'm like, "Actually, the whole point of my life is to not have arguments." Negotiations don't have to be arguments. They can just be really simple conversations between two people.

It takes a lot of meditative breaths, depending on who I'm talking to.

Erin: That's right. Thanks so much. We are so grateful for you today.

Fotini: Thank you for the wonderful questions. I certainly hope that this was helpful for everybody listening.

Erin: Oh, it absolutely was. Read more of Fotini Iconomopoulos' wisdom in her amazing book about negotiation, not just in business, but in life. It's called Say Less, Get More: Unconventional Negotiation Techniques to Get What You Want. REAL TIME is a production of Alphabet® Creative, with technical magic and, yes, very little silence by Rob Whitehead. I'm Erin Davis, and we invite you to subscribe and download all of our REAL TIME episodes. Every single one of them holds the keys to our understanding and success in business and in life. Thanks for joining us, and we'll talk to you again soon on REAL TIME.

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For more than five decades, Canadians have trusted Peter Mansbridge to guide them through countless political, economic, and cultural events that have shaped our nation. He’s one of Canada’s most respected and recognizable figures, having spent 30 years as CBC News’ chief correspondent and anchor of The National.

On this episode of REAL TIME, Peter helps us understand why, how, and where we’ve deviated from trust and truth – all through his unique journalistic lens – and how Canadians can respond.

Transcript

Erin Davis: Welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for and about REALTORS®, brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association. I'm Erin Davis, proud to be your host, as today, we're delving into information, disinformation, misinformation with a person who knows whereof he speaks. For more than five decades, Canadians have trusted Peter Mansbridge to guide them through the political, economic, and cultural events that have shaped our nation.

He's one of Canada's most respected and recognizable figures, having spent 30 years as CBC News chief correspondent and anchor of The National. On this episode of REAL TIME, Peter, through his unique journalistic lens, helps us understand why, how, and where we've deviated from trust and truth and how leaders can respond. Thank you so much for joining us, Peter. It is such a pleasure to have you on REAL TIME. Thank you for being here today.

Peter Mansbridge: Hey, Erin. It's always good to talk to you, and it's especially great to talk to you today.

Erin: We're here to talk about trust and truth, and of course, you are someone who has earned the trust of Canadians for decades. When I told people that I was getting up to record this podcast with Peter Mansbridge to a person, they all said, "Say hi to him for me," because you are someone who was in their living room, their bedrooms in their homes on the regular and you really do feel like a family member in so many ways.

Peter: It's funny like that. You have the same experience over your time in broadcasting as well, but I can be in an airport or a hotel lobby or a shopping center, and somebody will come up, and they give you that look like they know you and they've known you a long time, and they don't quite understand why you don't recognize them, right?

Erin: Yes.

Peter: There's a thing about our business that lends toward that kind of familiarity on the one hand and a degree of trust on the other hand.

Erin: It's true because in so many cases, as I did in mornings when people were just waking up and you when people are ending their day, winding down whatever kind of day they've had, there is a trust. There is a bond that you form with people because you are there for them. As someone who's earned the trust of Canadians for decades, how have you seen, Peter, the perception of these values change?

Peter: It's a really good question, and the thing about it is, trust is a delicate quality and quantity in terms of how much there is out there. You have to earn it for one, and then you have to maintain that trust, and that's not as easy as it sounds. There are times, and there certainly were times in my career when there was an issue about trust when people wondered about whether or not what you were telling them was accurate, was the truth or not, and you had to earn it.

You had to earn that faith that what you were delivering to them was the accurate sense of what had happened in a day or a week or what have you. I've monitored the trust factor for literally decades. For a long time, the journalism business was up there near the top, not at the top, the top is doctors and nurses, firefighters. The bottom was, you remember it used to be used car salespeople, right?

Erin: Yes.

Peter: They were the least trusted. It's changed over time. The doctors and nurses, et cetera, are still at the top. Journalism, which had been near the top, has dropped down to-- when you look in percentage terms, it is around 50% now. That's a terrible number for journalism. Journalism is one of the pillars of democracy. You got to have it to believe that you have a democratic system, and to have it, you got to believe in journalism. When you start doubting it, then everything falls into some doubt.

That has taken place over the-- I'd like to say, gee, it started the day after I retired, but it had already started before then. People were doubting what they read, what they heard, what they saw on newscasts, television, radio, digital, what have you. The more the business has exploded through social media, the more doubt has crept into it. To earn that back, journalists have to, first of all, be aware that it's an issue and work at trying to bring it back, and bringing it back means ensuring that you're telling the truth and that you're transparent about what you're doing and how you're doing it.

Erin: How much has the loss of the fairness doctrine back when Reagan scrubbed it in, I'm going to say the '80s, and basically just allowed whatever anyone who called themselves a journalist to go on the air and say, "How much did that start to muddy the waters?" Because I'm guessing that that was where it maybe if not begun, then that was the blossoming, and then the internet just was the fertilizer.

Peter: You may have a point there. We tend to blame a lot of things on Reagan or especially so on Trump of late. Listen, part of the issue here, it's not just the responsibility of journalists. It's also the responsibility of the public. You've got to be prepared to challenge when you don't believe something. Now, I'm out of the daily news business. I've been seven years out of the CBC, but I do a daily podcast and I get a tremendous amount of mail and reaction to it. In many cases, there's the crazies out there, but not mainly on podcasts.

Podcasts seem to have a different kind of audience. They're thoughtful, they're constructive. When they challenge, they do so in a constructive way, not in a kind of ignorant way. That's all good. That's the way it should be. Journalists have to be prepared to answer them. A lot of the questions are around this issue of transparency. How do we do our job? How do we make a decision on what's news and what isn't news? What should be the top of a newscast? What doesn't make it in a newscast?

All of that stuff is all part of the transparency issue, and we have to be more upfront about how we make decisions. Sure, it may well have started back in the '80s, maybe even before then, but it has taken on a whole new dynamic in terms of trust, and journalists and their news organizations are not used in the way they used to be used. Decline in newspapers, the decline in network television, the move towards streaming, all of that stuff. Some of it is part of this issue. Not all of it, but some of it.

Erin: Whatever is out there, the idea that somewhere there is a Minister of Information who is sitting there overseeing everything that a news operation puts out so that it goes along with the government voice, which you and I know is insane. That there is a Trudeau or somebody sitting in the newsroom saying, "You are going to tell the story this way." That's just simply not true.

Where does the decision-making begin? The buck stops at your desk, but not everyone is a Peter Mansbridge. How does the decision to prioritize which stories, how they're going to be covered, how is that done, Peter? Take it down to basics for us.

Peter: Sure. It is one of the misconceptions. You're absolutely right that there is this hidden hand somewhere that directs journalism. Now, I can talk specifically about the CBC and the time that I was there. Once again, I left seven years ago, so I'm not sure how things are handled there now, but I assume and I certainly hope that they're handled the same way as they were when I was there.

I can tell you that I was at the CBC for 50 years, five-oh, five decades, and only once in that whole period of time, and I was at a senior level in the news organization, the news structure, so I would've known, but there was only once in those 50 years where the government of the day ordered something up and said, "You got to do this." The CBC folded like a cheap suit and did it. That was in 1970 during the October Crisis, 1970, so over 50 years ago, when they agreed to broadcast the manifesto of the FLQ.

It was part of the negotiating package that was going on behind the scenes. There was a great kerfuffle about that, understandably so, within the journalistic organization that that was a decision made by the government, not by journalists. I never saw anything remotely like that happen again. Now, do politicians no matter their stripe; liberal, conservative, do they cry out and say, "You're biased. You're this, you're that. Why don't you cover this? You should cover that"?

They all do that. That's normal. That's just part of the package that goes on in the background. Meanwhile, journalists do their job. You can argue about how well they do that and that's a legitimate discussion to have, but move this stuff about political interference aside because it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen at the journalism level. Maybe it happens at the bureaucratic level, but that's different.

That doesn't affect the journalism. The journalism, the decisions that are made in a newsroom, and I'm assuming most newsrooms are like this, but they certainly were at the CBC in all the newsrooms I worked in, including The National newsroom where I was the chief correspondent for 30 years, our decisions are made on a daily basis by a group of individuals who are very diverse in their backgrounds, both geographic, gender, culture, ideology. We have a mix. We deliberately have a mix and we move people around the country.

I started in Churchill, Manitoba then I went to Winnipeg, then I went to Regina, then I went to Ottawa, then I went to Toronto, overseas a couple of times. That is typical. Then you end up in this room where decisions are made on a daily basis about what's going to make the program, what order things are going to go in, what we're going to say, all of that stuff. Scripts are approved and debated by reporters as far away as the Middle East, covering stories. That all happens by this group of people.

Do we have arguments every day? Absolutely. I used to say, if you end up in a newsroom and there are no debates or discussions going on about what you're doing, then you're in a really bad newsroom. You want that kind of discussion, hopefully, on a daily basis about what you're doing. That's how decisions are made. They're not made by some directive from above. That doesn't happen. It just doesn't happen. It doesn't happen where I worked.

Erin: Thank you for that clarification. Sometimes we need to hear that again.

Erin: The American author and futurist John Naisbitt said that we are drowning in information and starving for knowledge. Coming up with Peter Mansbridge, the common misconception about the way newsrooms are directed, plus the crucial difference between mis and disinformation. Hey, have you heard? The Canadian Real Estate Association, CREA, has launched a new national login experience. That new experience, REALTOR.ca Single Sign-On or SSO, offers you password security and self-serve management, personal data protection, and a mobile-first experience.

It's up and ready for you to start using your new REALTOR.ca SSO username and password to access CREA's products and services. Got questions? We are ready. Go to the FAQs at crea.ca/sso/ and away you go, and away we go back to Peter Mansbridge, our very special guest on REAL TIME. Misinformation, Peter, can lead to polarization, which seems to breed more misinformation.

We get into our camps, our tribes, and we decide, "No, no, I've got my fingers in my ears. I'm not going to listen to what you have to say because I've made up my mind." What steps can we take to avoid falling into this cycle of misinformation, polarization, and more misinformation do you think?

Peter: Well, it is a bigger issue these days than it's been for a long time, and I don't want to dump on social media all the time, but that's a lot of how it's created in terms of misinformation. Disinformation is stuff that's deliberately put out there to affect the news pool and the understanding of people. That's a different manipulative way of doing stuff, but how do you challenge that twofold?

As journalists, you challenge it by demanding the truth, demanding the facts, checking the story. Too much ends up on the air, and especially in social media, without anybody checking anything. It just gets repeated, and at a certain point on the repetition factor, it scores its original purpose, which was to disinform, and it gets out there so much that people start to buy it.

The journalists have to check, but so do the people. There is an obligation on the public. When something doesn't seem right to you, demand to know more, demand a better understanding of the story that's being pushed on you. Whether it's on social media or whether it's on legacy media, it doesn't matter. You can still make that demand. If you don't hear back, then you know, well, it probably isn't true. We all have obligations here to try and prevent this from happening, but we live in a world, and we've got to be realistic, we live in a world where there is so much information out there.

I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess on how much is real and how much is untrue, but let's say it's 50-50, which is possible. We live in this world where there is more information available at our fingertips than has ever existed before in the history of the planet. Our kids, they can get information to back up their essays or their exams at the touch of a finger. That wasn't the case for us. It's a challenge, and the monitoring of it is only going to get more challenging.

As we move into a world of artificial intelligence, I shudder to think the direction a lot of this is going in, what the world is going to look like, not 10 years from now, not 5 years from now, a year from now. Things are moving at such a rapid pace on the movement of information and the creation of information, but we got to put guardrails in. We have to be very careful or the polarized world will only get more polarized and more challenging and more difficult for us to maneuver in.

Erin: It's almost as though critical thinking should be in the curriculum now for even elementary school, never mind high school and post-secondary, but being able to look at something-- We're with our nine-year-old grandson and he'll be watching a video about the world's oldest man and I'll say, "Okay, Colin, you know this isn't true, right? You know it can't be true." Because they're saying he's 160 or whatever. Well, why isn't it? Just because someone has put something on YouTube. It has to start so young that you start going, "Is this real?"

It's unfortunate because here we are needing to instill, not only in ourselves as adults, but as our children and grandchildren as well a healthy skepticism that didn't have to be there before anymore. It was all Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, and all those good things, but now it's like, "Well, okay, wait a second, the Tooth Fairy does what now?" You know what I mean?

Peter: I do. I hear you. The other thing about critical thinking is it can be fun. Good for you that you're teaching your grandkids that at a young age to be critical in their thinking, to be asking those questions. "Is that really true? Tell me more. Why should I believe that?" Looking for the facts. That can be fun. There's nothing like leaving somebody stumped who is trying to force an idea on you that simply isn't true and they can't back it up. That idea should exist and parents should be able to answer it, which can be an even greater challenge.

Erin: Oh, yes, absolutely. It's like when someone is having the argument with you about let's say, I don't know, I don't want to say vaccines because that's too hot a topic for whatever reason, but when someone will say, "Well, you know they want you to get this because they blah, blah, blah," it's just simply asking the question, "Well, who are they? Who's this great cabal who is trying to do this to us all?" It does come down to critical thinking so that we may get back to your subject of trust and breaking the cycle and working together to change it.

Peter: It absolutely comes back to the trust issue because in those questions where somebody who's critically thinking can't get the answer from whoever's foisting the idea on them, then they've got to go to somewhere they do trust. If it's a health issue, they go to their doctor, or they go to a clinic, or they go to a nurse, or whoever they can go to, who they trust with their assessment of things, and that can lead them to a safer place on that issue.

My parents used to teach us as a young family. We'd sit around the dinner-- We had the luxury of being able to have dinner together every night because of the hours my parents worked, but we'd have dinner every night and we'd usually have a topic of discussion that was borne out of the day's news. It wasn't a formal discussion or anything, we just ended up talking about something. Opinions would form and my dad would encourage us, "Okay, take the opposite view now. Let me hear you argue it from the other side."

That was a really interesting exercise because it forced you to think more. It forced you to seek out other opinions on issues. It sets you up for a better way to handle issues of consequence that you may be suddenly confronted by. That was one of the ways we went about things when we were tired of just challenging for more facts to back up an assessment or an opinion. Information is everything. That's how we move forward in life. It's based on the information we gather.

If we reach a point where we're all going, "I don't trust any of this," we're in trouble, we're in big trouble. We have to find the ways to be more confident about the facts we have and the facts we use to make decisions about whatever the issue may be each day.

Erin: Where do you get your facts, Peter? Where do you get your news from?

Peter: Oh, I just go on social media and say, "Hey, what about this?" No, you've got to read. We're caught in the middle of a time bubble right now where the major issue, the international issue, is surrounding the Middle East. Well, you and I have been around long enough, Erin, to know that there are so many opinions and sides to the story that you can have a hard time trying to come up with what you believe to be the truth. How do you do that? You do it by checking out of social media, and you do it by reading through trusted sources and understanding the background.

Middle East is a complicated historic issue but so are many others. There's a history to most of them, and you want to understand the history before you try to make decisions about the present on these issues because the old saying, "If you ignore history, you're bound to repeat it in some fashion." That's not always a good thing. Reading and studying and understanding it is a good part of it.

In my job, I was not an expert in anything. I'm still not an expert in anything, but I'm a generalist, so I know a little about a lot which is, as my dad used to say, "Knowing a little about a lot is a dangerous place to be because you basically only know a little." Right?

Erin: Yes. An inch deep and a mile wide, right?

Peter: Yes, exactly. What I found that I could do was get into a discussion about a subject and ask questions based on a reasonable degree of knowledge, limited but still reasonable to the point where I could ask questions which were probably similar to what a lot of people were asking at home. That's where you want to be. As the questioner, you don't want to be trying to be smarter than the guest. What's the point?

Erin: Yes, you're no longer the common man, and that's who you're supposed to be, but you're also supposed to know what you're talking about. You are in a very interesting foot-in-both-camps sort of position. Yes, please go on.

Peter: Yes. The audience can see that and they don't like it if you're trying to be more than you are. It's like questions that go on forever and in fact, have an implied answer in the question. We all do that. I do it. I imagine you do it at times. It's not where you want to be. You want to just get to the question, right?

Erin: Right.

Peter: That nobody cares exactly what your opinion is. They want to know what the opinion of the person you brought into the discussion because they're an expert of some degree on whatever the issue is. That's where I am on that.

Erin: When we return with Peter Mansbridge, applying the principles of trust and truth in your life and your work and leadership. We've been talking about social media today, and we know that Instagram has become such a huge part of our daily lives. Of course, that includes reaching out to your clients. Be sure and follow CREA, @crea_aci, on Instagram so you know when a new episode of REAL TIME is being released and for important updates from stats to our blog, CREA Café. Now, back to renowned journalist and broadcaster and our very special guest, Peter Mansbridge, on REAL TIME.

When we talk about trust and truth, many people, of course, think we're talking about with the media or with the government, but how do these principles apply to, say, modern business leaders?

Peter: Well, exactly the same way.

Erin: I had more to that question, but I decided to cut it off because I didn't want to ask more. No, I didn't want to go on too long.

Peter: Correct. When I talked earlier about those trust listings, there was a whole list of professions in there-

Erin: Yes. Teachers.

Peter: -including bankers and real estate agents, you name it. They're all in there, and they've all taken a hit as well, just like everybody else has taken a hit on trust. The same thing applies to them as well to ensure that what they're dealing with when they're talking, whether it's to a client or a colleague, that what they're saying is real, that it's accurate, and that it can help others understand their business and the implications that they're going to face in that business by being a part of it in some fashion, even just as a customer or a client.

Trust is just as important, and the truth is what trust is built on. You've got to have both of those no matter what your profession is.

Erin: What steps can businesses take to develop a culture of honesty, integrity, and transparency? We've seen companies that when they've screwed up, they've stepped up right away. Then we've seen other companies, an automaker comes to mind, that kept things on the down low about emissions for so long and lost so much trust as a result of that, and it's taken a better part of a decade to build that back up. What steps can businesses take, Peter, to develop that culture?

Peter: Well, you've got to stay ahead of the story. What's the term that most people use in terms of crisis management? What's the best way to manage a crisis? Well, the best way to manage a crisis is to realize how it's going to end and get there as quickly as possible. Don't play it out. Don't fudge. Don't try to cover it up. If you know it's going to end a certain way, get there. Get there right away.

It's kind of the same just on a basic way of instilling that sense within a profession, is that, tell the truth, admit when you're wrong, get there quickly, because every minute you take getting there is impacting your trust factor with your clients or your colleagues. We see so often a situation where a company or some business of some kind is caught in a problem, and you know that those early denials don't seem to make a lot of sense. You know where this is going. It's just a matter of how long it's going to get there, and the longer it takes to get there, the less trust you have in them.

If you've got a problem, deal with it. Deal with it right away. If you're lucky, you can deal with it behind closed doors before it ever gets public. Clean up the issue you have within. The longer you leave it, the more likely it is that it's going to go public. Somebody's going to say something, or somebody's going to find out something, and then you're really dealing with a situation that's damaged everything about your operation. That would be, to me, the basic thing. You've got a problem, deal with it. Deal with it right away.

Erin: That goes back to what you said at the beginning; your reputation, your trust. The trust that people have in you takes a lifetime to build and can be shattered overnight, and so you want to mitigate or get in front of that right away.

Peter: It's so true. I'm talking from personal experience too. In my time at the CBC, there were times where bad things happened, stupid things. Stupid decisions were made, not crooked or anything, but just dumb decisions.

Erin: Human decisions.

Peter: Yes. You knew it was going to backfire. You knew your audience was going to say, "This is crazy, I'm not watching this." There were times you had that, and you're absolutely right, you can make a mistake. You can lose your audience or your customer base overnight and it takes a long time to earn it back if ever. Whether it's journalism or selling widgets, these same kind of lessons apply. If you've got a problem, deal with it. Deal with it as soon as you can.

Erin: How can Canadians feel empowered to respond to the challenges that we've talked about today, Peter?

Peter: Well, in many ways, they hold a key to making a better world in this kind of world we're talking about because if Canadians, generally, clients, customers, don't buy in, that business is going to have a problem. The first thing Canadians have got to understand is they do have power. Consumer power is an amazing thing. It's a wonderful thing. It can be a decision-maker on the way companies and professions end up on that trust factor scale. Don't be shy. When you don't like something and you feel empowered to say something, say it because they will listen. Eventually, they will listen.

Don't be shy. They're there to serve you. They're there to make a profit, but they're there to serve you. If you don't feel served, make sure they know. Make sure they understand why you don't feel that way. Whether you're calling the local grocery store to say, "You sold me chicken, and you had it dated, but when I got it home, it was bad. That's just not acceptable."

No is an answer that, "Hey, listen, that's the way it was dated. That's the way it was dated" The only thing that's acceptable at that point is, "Bring it back, we will replace it immediately," or better still, "We'll come to your house and replace it." You've got some power. Don't just dump the chicken or whatever it may be in the garbage and move on and say, "I learned my lesson, I won't shop there anymore," or, "I'll look closer at the date or whatever." Call them, tell them.

Erin: I appreciate that, we all do, and everything that you've shared with us here today as you have with your keynote in Ottawa at CREA. Thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and your expertise, and we'll remember when we see you in the airport, "Hey, it's that guy. It's Peter Mansbridge." Don't you love when they say, "Should I know you?"

Peter: Yes, it's crazy.

Erin: I've gotten that, but it's like, "I don't know, should you?"

Erin: Tell us the most bizarre thing someone has said when they've met you and not known what else to say because fans get gobsmacked, Peter?

Peter: Actually, I can tell you when that happened, and this has happened a few times. It was just a couple of weeks ago. I was flying back from somewhere, got in the car at the airport, a taxi or Uber or something, and we're driving into Toronto. The guy was very talkative, and we were talking away about different things. He'd recognized me. We were talking about-- it could have been sports or world events or something. Anyway, he was very, very talkative.

He kept looking at me in the rearview mirror. We had a great conversation. It was very enjoyable. I get to where we were going, I said, "That's great. Thanks so much." I get out of the car, and before I close the door, he says, "I just want you to know I really miss you, Mr Robertson. You were great all those years."

Erin: I knew it.

Peter: It's funny because Lloyd says the same thing has happened to him. He remembered picking up somebody at the side of the road during a rainstorm. Him and his wife picked this woman up, and she got in the back seat, and he said, "I couldn't leave you standing there. I'm happy to take you to your home," which was, it turned out it was right along the way. He takes her home, they have all those discussions, she gets out of the car, she says, "You're great, Mr. Mansbridge. I just love the fact that I got this opportunity to meet you." Those things happen, and it keeps you honest too, right?

Erin: Oh, don't they, though?

Peter: Oh, yes. Just when you think everybody knows who you are, they don't.

Erin: Exactly. If I had a dollar for every time it was, "Hey, it's Marilyn Denis," I'd be flying off with you somewhere. Peter, thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and your perspective. We so appreciate all of it, and it was great talking to you.

Peter: Thanks, Erin. It was great talking to you, as always.

Erin: Catch more Peter Mansbridge whenever you like, simply by downloading his podcast, The Bridge. Informative and entertaining, you'll stay up to date on all the latest developments in the world around us from someone you can trust. We trust you are enjoying REAL TIME, and please do let all of your associates and friends know we're here. Catch every episode, past and future, simply by subscribing wherever you download the best podcasts.

REAL TIME is produced by Alphabet® Creative, with sound magic by Rob Whitehead and Real Family Productions. I'm Erin Davis, and I hope you've enjoyed this episode just as much as we did bringing it to you. Thanks for being here, and we'll talk to you again soon on REAL TIME.

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On this episode of REAL TIME, we’re joined by George Mumford, AKA the “Performance Whisperer.” George is a pioneer in sports psychology and performance coaching, and is globally renowned for his liberating perspectives on mindfulness and flow.

Throughout his career, he’s worked with an all-star roster of clients including Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, and now, he’s bringing his expertise to REAL TIME to help REALTORS® elevate their game in business and life.

Transcript

Erin Davis: Welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for and about REALTORS® brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association. I'm Erin Davis. We are so ready to take a deep breath and just be as we listen to the wisdom of our guests today. As a REALTOR®, you know success is tied to performance, but good things take work, and building a business in real estate is no different.

Performance, however, can sometimes feel like a synonym for stress. Fortunately, mindfulness can help bring balance. Today in Episode 42, we are joined by George Mumford, also known as the Performance Whisperer. George is a pioneer in sports psychology and performance, having worked with legendary athletes like Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. Today, George is renowned globally for his groundbreaking approach to mindfulness which he brings to us to help REALTORS®, to help you along your path to enduring success. Do I have to whisper, George? You are the whisperer. Can I just talk normally?

George Mumford: Yes.

Erin: We're going to do this our way. Welcome to REAL TIME, George.

George: Thank you. It's great to be here with you, Erin.

Erin: Well, you have such an inspirational story. We are going to get to all of that. First off, let's talk mindfulness. In the big picture here, we all have an idea of what mindfulness is to each of us. To me, it's reading Jon Kabat-Zinn, Wherever You Go, There You Are. I know that that's one of your mottos. Meditating and just breathing, being conscious of the breath, but you, what is mindfulness to you, as we begin what's going to be a great chat here today on REAL TIME?

George: Thank you for asking. Mindfulness to me is just mirror mind. What that means is that mindfulness is just a mirror and it allows us to see what's in front of the mirror. The idea of developing mindfulness is so that we make sure that the mirror doesn't have any dust on it. We just clear it off. It just reflects what's in front of it, everything that's in front of it. Not just one thing, a little thing. It's like mirror mind.

When you're mindful of something, you're just noticing it. You're letting whatever it is that you're mindful of speak to you in its own language. When you're being mindful of it, you're not pushing it away or pulling it towards you. This means the data or the object is in front of the mirror. You're not pushing it away or pulling it towards you. You're not even interpreting it. Not initially. You're allowing it to speak for itself in its own language. Does that make sense?

Erin: Yes, it does because we all do it in our busy lives or many of us do. In telling your story, you have, as I've mentioned off the top, an inspirational story, George, but can you tell us how you went from aspiring basketball player to one of the most sought-after sports psychologists?

George: Yes. I went to UMass Amherst. I was a walker and I wasn't recruited to play basketball. I had an academic scholarship, and at that time, I was rooming with Julius Irving or Dr. J. He's a Hall of Famer, and one of the-- He was my roommate in college. I used to play with him. We were roommates and we were playing on the team, but we were-- It was right about this time, I guess, and we were playing pickup.

What happens is right now, because basketball hasn't started, the varsity players or the people who are going to play, they would play against each other. During the pickup, we were playing, and when I went up for a shot layup or something, one of the guys undercut me. Cut my legs from underneath me and I injured my ankle. That was pretty much the end of my career in college.

I struggled with that. Initially, I got addicted to pain meds and then I got addicted to illegal drugs, specifically heroin and alcohol. I was a very functional substance abuser. I was able to graduate from college and work in corporate world for a while, but then at some point, I couldn't keep doing it and I couldn't stop. Then I got into recovery. When I got into recovery, I noticed that I had-- First thing that was clear is that I had chronic pain, but I had to embrace and say, "My life is unmanageable by me. I have a problem."

Once I admitted I had a problem, went into detox, got counseling, and got out of it. In the process of getting clean, I realized I had chronic pain. I couldn't really take pain meds, so I had to figure out a way of relating to the pain without using substances because my addiction doesn't know if it's prescribed or not. It would just kick that addiction up.

Anyway, I was in this experimental program and it was called Stress Management, so I learned how to manage stress. It was really more about me changing my lifestyle and taking a more active role in my healthcare. I learned meditation and yoga, and I got exposed to Tai Chi, but the main thing it did was it opened up this idea that I had to learn. We had a syllabus, a book, a list of the books to read, and the things-- so that we start to learn about the mind-body system, and the process, and realize the mind and body are connected, and that through self-regulation, I could regulate my stress or manage my pain in a certain way.

I got into this stress management course, which was taught by this woman, amazing doctor, Dr. Joan Borysenko. At the time, she was one of three psycho-neuroimmunologists. I learned about the mind-body system. Being the recovering perfectionist I am, I read every book on that syllabus, and then it gave me other books, so here I am in my 40th year of sobriety, and I've averaged over a book a week during that whole time.

Erin: Oh. Congratulations.

George: Thank you. It's interesting because once I got clean and I started listening to myself, I noticed that I needed to be intellectually stimulated; ergo, I started learning things. Then I realized the best way to keep it was to give it away, and if I wanted to learn something, to teach it. I started working. I worked as a financial analyst during the day and then at nights and weekends, I would work in a detox helping people in recovery.

I started using this not only for my recovery, but for my well-being and teaching it to others. That's how I got into it. Fast forwarding to 1990s, and I'm working with Jon Kabat-Zinn at the Center for Mindfulness at the UMass Medical Center. He knew Phil Jackson, and they were teaching in the summer at this place called Omega. This is 30 years ago. Chicago Bulls had just won three NBA championships in a row, and Phil wanted somebody to come in to help the players deal with the stress of success.

I ended up going to training camp and working with the Bulls, and of course, they had a full-blown crisis because Michael Jordan's father was murdered and Michael retired. That's how I got started. It was really more about me just going there and just wanting to serve, wanting to share my experience, strength, and hope. That's how I got there, and then it just took off obviously. The Bulls won championships.

Then Phil went to the Lakers, and the Lakers won championships, and he took me with him. Then I started working with other folks. I left the medical center and I started freelancing, and that's how I got here, but it was really more about the adversity. It's interesting because I've written two books, The Mindful Athlete: Secrets to Pure Performance, and then my current book, Unlocked: Embrace Your Greatness, Find the Flow, Discover Success.

The interesting thing is people would say, "Well, why did you write about the substance abuse and whatnot?" I said, "No, without that, I wouldn't be here." The gift of desperation, what I call the AOF method of motivation. It's like a lot of people I work with, I know they say yes, they want to change, but they don't change. Well, what helped me change was my butt was on fire or ass on fire. That's what I mean by--

Erin: Oh, that's the AOF. Thank you.

George: Ass on fire. I got eaten. Then it was the sense of urgency, but I got to a place because I had a friend of mine who got clean. He was an inspiration. I got triggered, my ignition got lit because I'd seen what was possible for him. Then once I got clean, it was like, "This is an amazing life." Living on life's terms but without substances, and actually getting to know myself better. I got to know myself, so I could be myself, so I could express myself, so I could share myself.

That's what I've been doing. Two books, I continue to work with people. It doesn't matter where they are. As long as you got a mind, I could probably work with you or help you work with yourself. That's how I got there. It was through adversity, but saying yes to it and using it as a stepping stone, having the growth mindset versus the fixed mindset, knowing it's all about learning, growing, and developing. Over these 40 years, I've reinvented myself multiplicity at times as well as getting to know myself more and more because I change, everything changes. It's been a wonderful journey of self-discovery.

Erin: Next up as we talk with performance coach George Mumford, one amazing guest, two kinds of mindsets. Which one is yours? CREA Café is your place to take a break. Grab a pumpkin spice or whatever you like, and catch up on the latest trends and topics affecting you and your clients. Find it all at creacafe.ca. Now, we return to our conversation with George Mumford, and I urge you just google some of his quotes because we're hearing them from the man himself today. Words of wisdom that apply to you both every day and especially in your life as a REALTOR® on REAL TIME.

You talk about fixed mindset versus growth mindset. I think that really, among all of the things that you've said so far, like the term recovering perfectionist, everybody raises your hand, unless you're driving, keep both hands on the wheel. I think that that really resonates too, my friend. Let us talk about fixed mindset versus growth mindset, can we?

George: Yes. Back in my youth, I would read something and I'd say, "Okay, either I get it or I don't get it." That's it. A fixed mindset says you can't learn, you can't grow, you can't develop, you are what you are and you can't change. The growth mindset is the opposite, which says, we all have this masterpiece inside, or a divine spark, or Buddha-nature, Christ consciousness, Quan Yin energy, whatever it is. There's greatness within us, and in all of us, not just one, some of us, but all of us have it.

It's really a matter of embracing it, developing it, and accessing it. The challenge is it can only be accessed by us. It's an inside job. To the degree that I embrace my greatness, I'm able to find my flow and discover success. It's just me being who I'm supposed to be. It's being my authentic self, giving myself permission to go inside and follow my strongest passion.

Joseph Campbell would say, "Follow your bliss." To me, I want everybody to have that experience. I want everybody to have the opportunity, like I said, to get to know themselves, to realize that you have a masterpiece within, you can access it. Only you can do it. The bad news is we lock ourselves up. The good news is because we lock ourselves up, we can let ourselves out. We can unlock ourselves.

Erin: Okay. We are all open to the message here that you're sharing, George. In terms of business, how are the concepts of mindfulness and performance related in a business context? How do you make the two co-exist peacefully within-- you've described yourself as a Type A, which again, many of us are, and recovering perfectionists, but you say you're a Type A without the hostility. Let us go back to the business concept or context, and I'll ask you again, how do you marry the two and can they coexist?

George: Yes. I was in business for four or five years before I left business, and while I was on this journey, and it's really about having a way of being, realizing that you can compete in a way where you don't lose your humanity. I say this to people all the time. When I'm competing, I'm not competing against anybody out there.

I'm competing against my previous best self, and I will say with grace and ease, which came decades afterward, but it is like you can love yourself and you can have the tough love, but it's really more about understanding that no matter what you're doing, wherever you go, there you are. Whether you're a business person or whatever role you're in, you can learn how to be in the moment and live in alignment with the way things work.

We live in a network of relationships, so it's about mutual benefit, mutual respect, and seeing the greatness in others. I see masterpieces all over the place. Even if people don't see them, I see it. That's how I'm relating to myself and others. Mostly to others, it's challenging to do it for myself, but through doing it to others, I can do it for myself, but it's really more about having a way of being where you say yes to life and you embrace it and you learn from it.

Whatever it's there, it's like, what's the lesson? It's that simple. You see things as challenges, not as curses or burdens, or instead of seeing the enemy, seeing somebody who is suffering, just like I am suffering. It just may be they don't understand that they can be an infinity. They can come from goodwill rather than feeling like they're in survival mode where they got to destroy or deny anybody who's a threat. Everything's a threat when you're in survival mode.

Erin: Exactly. That's how it often feels in business, in changing economies and changing situations. Again, of course, since we're talking to REALTORS®, in changes in the markets all the time. George, how do we get into the zone to maximize our potential?

George: Yes. How do we get into the zone? That's perfect because I live a lot of my life in the zone. You don't have to just be an athlete, but you do have to have clear goals. You have to have an ability to observe your goals and know when you have to keep make adjustments on the fly. Under the conditions, you'll be in flow, but if you try to get in the flow, you won't.

I know if your challenges are high and your skills, knowledge, and experience is high, and you are just out of your comfort zone, it's hard to do, but doable. In other words, you're out of your comfort zone, you have access to flow. It's something that once you get the flow, then it becomes normalized. It's like a step function. You have to challenge yourself some more. You have to learn more skills if that's what you want to do.

You have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. We know what the flow triggers are. We know that you have to have clear goals and get immediate feedback or feedback loops. In that loop, you got to keep adjusting, adapting so that you stay on task. You're going to make mistakes, you're going to feel uncomfortable, you're going to experience some level of anxiety.

Anytime we change anything, we're going to mobilize anxieties, but anxiety is the other side of freedom. It comes, but if you could say yes to it and just keep moving with it-- The best example I can give is that you watch improv.

Erin: Oh, yes. Yes-and.

George: When somebody's doing improv and someone says there's a pink elephant in the bathroom, if you don't accept that and you say, "No, I'm not going to go with that," then there's no flow. If you say, "Oh, just make sure he doesn't use all the toilet paper," or something like that, then-- See what I'm saying?

Erin: Yes.

George: Whatever life throws us, we have to say yes to it and see there's an opportunity to step up. To get in the flow, but you have to train for it. You have to be able to challenge-- that's why it's got to be inter-directed. We got to set clear goals and get immediate feedback, but we have to be clear about the feedback we're getting, the error corrections, what we attribute the errors to.

If we attribute it to not being big enough or fast enough or the right size, or have the right here or any of that, that's not what gets us there. What gets us there is we make choices and we can learn from our mistakes. We attribute the mistake to not making the right effort or not getting the right understanding of how things work. Once we align with that, then you're rolling.

It's this ability to make mistakes and to learn from them, is this ability-- and it's interesting because Winston Churchill said, "Success is going from failure to failure to failure without losing enthusiasm." What I'm really talking about is this idea of being a learner, learning to learn, and just realizing that it's a lesson. What's the lesson? You learn a lesson, and you keep it moving.

You have to say yes to stuff, embrace it, generate the hope, and then figure it out because that's the other thing about us being these masterpieces. We figure stuff out. We are wired for success, but we have to be willing to get comfortable being uncomfortable and be willing to be honest with what we are getting and then stop blaming and denying. We have to say, "I am responsible. Even if something happens to me, I get to choose my response and my reaction to it." In that space between stimulus and response, we get to choose in alignment with our goals and our core values.

I know it's challenging, but we got to go inside and know what do I want and what am I willing to do, or who am I willing to be to do what I want to do. It's that simple and that challenging. It's easy in terms of, it sounds easy, but it's challenging because it's going against the stream. It's going against everything we probably learned, that if you make a mistake, you don't have to beat yourself up. All you got to do is see this feedback and then make the adjustment. You can do it with joy.

Whether you're in business or not, it's like, okay, you got core values, you have a worthy cause, and you have rules for engagement. You want to have your integrity, but you also want to keep your kindness and be able to have goodwill. Nobody wants to be around somebody who looks at them as a thing. Everybody wants to be seen as a whole person, not as a thing. If I don't relate to you as a person with a body, with a mind, with a heart, and a soul or spirit, if I leave any one of those dimensions out from my interaction with you, then I'm relating to a thing, not a person.

The same with myself. I can embrace all of that, my body, the way it is, my mind, I can make my mind my best friend, my heart, I can manage my emotions. I can have emotional intelligence and the spirit. The other one about contribution and meaning, the meaning is to relate to people in a way that I want to be related, to see myself and others as one. We see that every once in a while when we have a catastrophe like 9/11, or when the young man, American football, Damar Hamlin, he was making a tackle. After he had the contact with the person, he just stood up and he fell down on his back and he had a heart attack.

Everybody came over and the game stopped. Everybody just was concerned about this young man. The NFL never cancels games or any of that stuff. At that moment, everybody's individual selves melded into us, and what's happening to him is happening to us, and we want him to be the best. Every once in a while we get through beyond this illusion of separateness. That's helpful.

I would say that there's a way of relating with integrity, with compassion, and with goodwill. You can do amazing things. Not only that, where you're able to share the market, grow your business, and create an environment where people will work there because they're able to be themselves. They're able to grow professionally and personally. I know some people might say, "Okay, this guy has never been--" I've been in business, I work with CEOs. I know how this works. I know if you want to perform at an elite level, you got to be genuine. You got to be real. You got to have integrity.

You got to do the work. You have to not lose your humanity and know that I'm the other one. Even if you compete against somebody, you don't make them a thing. You see them as a person. You relate in that way. It begins with me. It begins with me relating to myself as a whole person and taking care of myself.

Erin: We return to George Mumford, gatherer and sharer, and more about the importance of listening, especially when things are swirling around you, both in business and in life. We are glad you are following our podcast. We have 41 insightful episodes just waiting for you to dig in and be inspired. There's a new one every month, and we're grateful to have you joining us here in our REAL TIME podcast community. Now, back to the Performance Whisperer himself, George Mumford on REAL TIME.

Going back to so much that you've said, and honestly, you are preaching to the choir here, George, from man's search for meaning to the stoics. That happened. Now what are you going to do about it? Als,o the aspect, the image of improv, and the yes-and, but the most important part of improv besides having a really good mind is listening. Listening is part of what you have given as a message to people who are in the-- it's chaos around them. As a leader, what do you do? What is the thing that is most necessary for you in order to not control chaos, but to ride it?

George: Yes. Be the eye of the hurricane. In the hurricane, the eye is calm, peaceful, it's quiet, the blue skies. There's no turmoil there. There's just silence, spaciousness. I would even say love, compassion, openness, there's an ease of being. You're in a place of rest. When you're in the eye of the hurricane, you can be aware of the hurricane without being identified or pulled into the whirlwinds. You're not trying to make the hurricane go away. You're trying to just-- your intention is to let it be the hurricane. You be the eye, and like everything else, it's going to rise and fade away.

Hurricanes don't last forever, they end at some point. You need to stay in the eye and realize you're in the eye from this place of rest. Joseph Campbell talked about it in The Power of Myth. This is anybody, but he said that when the athlete is in championship form, they come from this place of rest. They come from their center, so that they're not compelled by desire or fear, they hold their center.

Now, you get to a place where you can be alert and relaxed at the same time, and notice things, and then the question is, "How can I help? How can I serve? Or what's the win? What's important now?" or make the next play. Just holding the space and having it calm makes a big difference.

I'll share with you a story, the experience of the first year I was working with the Lakers, it was 2000, and the Lakers were playing the Portland Trail Blazers, and my buddy Scotty had a team and they had an amazing team. It was fourth quarter, Game 7, whoever won that game was going on to the NBA championship. It was 10 minutes and 28 seconds left in the quarter, this 12-minute quarter. They were trailing by 15 points.

Phil called a timeout when I was sitting behind the bench. Obviously, I got up when the team came over, and the team came to the bench and he said, "We have them just where we want them. One stop, one score. That's how we're going to win." That's all he said, we've been practicing mindfulness and this ability to be the eye of the hurricane or just make the next play, what's important now, and won that game. It was a tremendous comeback, we won by seven.

That's because he held the space, and he changed how things occurred to them. We can do this. I imagine Tom Brady did the same thing when they were down even more, when he came back and beat the Atlanta Falcons. It was the same thing. "Okay, man, we got this. Just got to make the next play, we ain't got to get them all at once," but that's what it is. It's being in the moment because, in the moment, you can manage the moment, and then the next moment, and the next moment.

All things are possible when we can be in the moment, and be clear about what our intentions are, and be able to execute them. It's not about the other team, it's about you, it's about us. As a manager, there's this idea of knowing what the rules are, and what's important now. We got to begin from now and then, "Okay, stay calm, and then just focus on the next thing. Do what you know to do, and the next step will be given to you."

That's how you do it, but you have to program yourself because we're programmed to overreact and curse and to feel like we got to be in there and we got to look like we're angry or we got to look like it's serious, we got to have a scowl face instead of a smile and say, "Hey, this is going to be awesome, we got this." You just got to make the next play, and even if you don't achieve everything, you still have changed your state, and you're at ease. You're having fun, you're having joy, and then you realize that that can be a way of being.

Even if you're challenged by a difficult task, or having a balanced workload and play, and you have somebody who's sick, or something happens, if you stay in the eye of the hurricane, and then you ask, "Okay, what's the next play?" You got to embrace, "Yes, this is happening, I don't like it, but if I can say yes to it and generate hope, I can learn the lesson, I can relate to it in a way where it's going to take me forward, and it's going to transform not only me but the whole situation, people that are engaged in it and whatnot."

That's what's possible, just being able to find that place of rest, that still point, that eye of the hurricane and observe experience in a way-- There's something I'll say about that. From my own experience, when I come from that place of rest, when I come from the eye of the hurricane, there's wisdom and creativity that comes out of that, that is beyond description.

That's what flow is; you're in flow, and you just know things. There's no self-consciousness. You're fully engaged in what you're doing, not on how you're doing, or seeing it as a personal self, you're just in the flow. We have the capacity to do that, no matter what we're doing. We can have access to that, but the best way to have access to it is not to have access to it. Just to create the condition in which that happens.

Erin: Can I ask you, George, if you're in the center of the eye of the hurricane, the calm, and you're talking about your teammates, your Phil Jackson, and you tell your bench that this is what's going to happen, and glory be it does, what about in terms of REALTORS® and their clients? Because the clients are spinning sometimes. Buying a house, selling a property is so, so stressful. How do you help external forces or external beings who may not be on your bench?

George: By holding space, by staying calm and serving, just recognizing that they're-- asking them questions. People, they have their own way of doing it. It's just focusing on the person that's in front of you, focusing on making the connection and being a service. That's the best way. I've had this experience where in between my jobs, when I wasn't making enough money, and I'd be worried about paying the mortgage and all that stuff, and I'd be eager, maybe even people that are needy because there's a different energy, but once I could just relax and just focus on serving, the money comes.

The idea is when you have a client, there's a whole person in front of you. Can we just relate to them and deal with what's there? By not trying to make the sale, we'll make the sale because we're serving, but just creating a space for them to be at ease so that they'll be relaxed, and they'll be able to do things because it doesn't matter where you are, but our emotions are contagious.

It's just really understanding that you're serving the person. It's just like you calm yourself down, and then it's easy for you to relate to them, and that energy is going to affect their ability to calm down and just do the next thing. Ask them questions, get them to focus on the here and now and what they're focused on. Not denying and say, "Oh, don't worry about--" whatever. Just say you need a minute and you breathe.

These folks already know how to do it. I think once you come out of that eye of the hurricane, you know what to do. There's an intuition, there's a wisdom. These folks have to-- some of them might even just be new. Being new, if you just be still in the deep listening, listening is not just what the person is saying, it's their energy, the nonverbal communication. You see they're at ease or not at ease, or there's some distress there or whatever.

You just make space for it, and they know how to do that. It's just like if you met a young kid or a little child that was lost, and even though you have a meeting or sell a house or something, or you got to be at a recital, your main thing is to be there with that child and to make sure that they're safe and that they feel cared for. It's the same thing.

Erin: George Mumford is author of Unlocked: Embrace Your Greatness, Find the Flow, Discover Success as well as The Mindful Athlete: Secrets to Pure Performance. We'll be back with George in a sec. First, a reminder. Whether you're just starting out or are a seasoned veteran, there's always information to add to your professional toolbox at CREA.ca. From legal matters to navigating technology, it's all there simply by clicking CREACafe.ca.

Now, if you're like me, the lines are blurred between work you and real-life you. I think that's okay. When we are our work, how do you make space in your life just for you, for rest, for peace? George Mumford has some answers that we hope will help on REAL TIME.

You've used a beautiful phrase, fight, flight, and freeze, but you got to rest and digest. Before we let you rest, and we digest all of this wisdom, George, I do have to ask you that because working in real estate can be high stress and REALTORS® or entrepreneurs with a lot resting on their ability to actively build their business, it's not a job where, say, you can leave the stadium, or you can leave the office, and when you come home, and you close the front door, you are in a different space. Your work is with you. You are your work in a lot of cases, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

How do you keep that lava flow from coming in your front door? What can you recommend as a takeaway tip for us, George? Just to have that space, make that space. For some of us, it has to be a physical thing, whether it's a candle or incense or just a certain mood. What do you recommend?

George: If you have a place in your house or a place where you can be alone, I was one of 13 children and my refuge was in the morning. I get up early before anybody else, and I could just be with myself. Just be there, be quiet, and be with myself. Joseph Campbell talked about that as well. He said you have to have a room or a place, a sacred space, where you could just be in a room and be alone and not be around anybody else. You could be with yourself and torture yourself, but be with yourself and just be kind and just be at ease.

Prayer, meditation, maybe you read Scripture or you read something that reminds you that you are a masterpiece and that you're going to go through struggles, you're going to go through difficulties, but it's those difficulties that allow your latent abilities to manifest if you are willing to say yes to it and willing to know that you need your me time. You just have to do it.

You have to have some time when you can-- maybe it's in the morning or at night, or maybe you just go for a walk, but you have to have time where you can recover and just be aware of how you're feeling, but just really having the me time. Some of us, like I used to like to run, I'd go on a run or something, but it's really more about just sitting and breathing and knowing it.

Even now, if people are not driving and I'm talking and sitting, I can just be aware of just being in my body and breathing in, breathing out. Some people do different kinds of breathing, but just stopping and smelling the roses, or like you said, you might have a room or you might have a place. I like to walk along the beach, the ocean, but you have to have a time, what Joseph Campbell called creative incubation. That's where your thoughts and everything come.

You just be with yourself and you're just relaxing and just being there and just breathing and being in the moment and there's a lot of different things to do. Some of us have spaces that allow us to do that, but we can create this ability to do that, where we just spend time every moment-- I talk about-- well, actually, Maria Popova, she has a thing called the Marginalian. It used to be Brain Pickings. She talked about what she's done over the 10 years.

She talks about having these pockets of stillness where there's times when you just pause and you just stop, and you see it in a commercial where they're selling a certain car. I used to work in a stress reduction clinic in the medical center. Before you go in the house, you just sit there instead of just running right in the house. You just sit there and you just breathe and you just relax and calm yourself and say, "Okay, you're about to do your most important work of the day." You have to be able to let go of what went on before and what's going to go on before it, so you can just be in the moment just being it now.

Even though we feel like we got so much to do, we have to think about it all the time, well, that's how we get burnt out, or that's how we get to a place of diminishing returns, I like to call it. We have to exercise, it's called the relaxation response is what Dr. Herbert Benson framed it, is that we have this ability, when we focus on one thing, it could be a mantra of prayer, or just sitting and watching our breath. We allow ourselves to get into that rest and digest, where actually, we're able to just recover the spent energy, especially the psychic energy.

There's a lot we can do, but having a practice where we're praying and meditating, or even having a gratitude practice or a loving-kindness practice or a compassion practice, any of these things where we focus on these emotions and we can feel them is ways we can train ourselves to be in the moment. Shawn Achor has a whole thing. He wrote The Happiness Advantage. He has these five research habits that one could do. For instance, saying out loud or writing down three new things every 24 hours each day. Three things we can be grateful for, just writing somebody a supportive note or something, or we live in a experience we really liked. Three conscious smiles, just smiling.

It's interesting, it takes 13 muscles to smile and 72 to frown. Just smiling, it changes your whole physiology. Just looking at it in a way where, "Oh, okay, this is an opportunity. This is a stepping stone. This is not a roadblock." That's what we have this ability to do. Is the glass half empty or half full? Both are right, but if it's half empty, you're coming from scarcity. Your ability to access your mental capacity is diminished by 40%. You got to be able to stay open.

How do I do it? How do I need to recover? How do I know when I'm stressed out? I have self-observable signs. For me, when I was in recovery, and I had this, "I'm too cool, I don't get stressed out." My body would say, "Yo, man, this is stressing here because your shoulders are up around your ears, and you got a migraine headache." When the migraine started coming on, I know I was trying too hard. We have these self-observable signs of distress. For some of us, it's eating too much, not sleeping enough. Just really being worried about things, awfulizing. That's what I learned. Awfulizing, focusing on all the things that go wrong or focusing on what you're not doing instead of catching yourself doing something right or catching somebody else doing something right, and trying to balance that equation of that negative self-talk and changing it into positive, supportive, or directed thought.

There's many, many things we could do to what I would call having self-awareness, this ability to have mirror mind, and then just generate thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that are in alignment with us regulating ourselves, so we can be in the moment, be at ease, and still be serious about what we're doing, but have this compassion, this likeness, this confidence that we can generate from that by just noticing that it's better to be in a growth mindset and see things as challenges versus seeing them as curses or things that shouldn't be happening.

Erin: Amazing. Simply amazing. Thank you. You say we are all masterpieces, but boy, you sir are. We are so grateful to have had this talk with you today, and who knows how many people will be taking in your message as we rest and digest. Thanks to you, George, for making time to be with us here today on REAL TIME.

George: Well, thank you. Let me just point out something-

Erin: Sure.

George: -that what you can see is what you are. If you can see it in me, that's because it's in you.

Erin: Thank you. It's been such a pleasure.

George: You're welcome.

Erin: I'm Erin Davis. We invite you to like and share this podcast with everyone among your REALTOR® community and elsewhere, anyone you think that might also gain some wisdom from the words of George Mumford. Thanks for that. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association and is a production of Alphabet Creative®. Sound Tech by Rob Whitehead. Thanks so much for joining us, and we'll talk to you again soon on REAL TIME.

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Continuing our Working REALTOR® series, this episode shares tips, strategies, and lessons learned to help you continue building a successful real estate career, at any phase.

Hear from three REALTORS® from across the country: Ruth Alexander from Calgary, Alberta, Nene Akintan from Oakville, Ontario, and Steve Saretsky from Vancouver, British Columbia.

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Customer support, content creation, social media sentiment analysis – artificial intelligence (AI) presents a world of business potential for REALTORS®. But how do you know what’s right for you?

On this episode of REAL TIME, we have the privilege of hearing from Sharon Tehrani, one of CBC’s data and machine learning product leaders. We look at the opportunities and risks of incorporating AI into your business, where to start (and how to do so responsibly), and the skills you should sharpen to maximize its impact.

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With research showing Canadians want to live more sustainably, businesses big and small have an opportunity to deliver a new form of value. On this episode of REAL TIME, Geoffrey Macdonald, CFO of IKEA Canada, shares advice to help REALTORS® support their clients’ sustainability journeys, operate more sustainably themselves, and be as authentic as possible on their path to positive change.

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Erin Davis: Welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for, and about REALTORS®, brought to you by CREA, the Canadian Real Estate Association. I'm your host, Erin Davis, and episode 38 of REAL TIME promises to be a fun and fascinating discussion. We think you're going to find yourself nodding in agreement, maybe going, "Huh, I never thought of that," and just enjoying a great chat with two very interesting members of your own Canadian REALTOR® community. That community includes more than 160,000 real estate agents, brokers, and salespeople.

Now on this episode, we get up close and personal with two of them. If you or someone you know is curious as to how to start, grow, and/or sustain a successful career in real estate, there's a lot to learn from the people immersed in the profession. First up, James Mabey and Chris Peters reflect on how they got their start. Here we go.

Well, it's so good to have you both here on REAL TIME and we're going to start with a quick round of introductions. Chris, we will go geographically, start at the east and begin with you. Go ahead.

Chris Peters: Excellent. My name is Chris Peters. I live currently in Halifax. I'm originally from Toronto. I've been licensed since 2011. I have been married for 20 years, this year actually it will be. I've got two fantastic boys, 14 and 18 years old.

Erin: Wonderful. James, we're heading west now. There you are in Edmonton.

James Mabey: My name is James Mabey. I am the chair-elect for the Canadian Real Estate Association, but I'm a broker-owner and my husband and I, along with our miniature dachshund RuPaul, live in St. Albert, Alberta. I've been licensed since 2005. I've been a broker since 2007 and we have four offices in the Greater Edmonton area.

Erin: Okay. Now, since this episode is all about getting your start as a REALTOR®, first off, James, what drew you to the profession?

James: You know what? I am a second-generation REALTOR® and that is both a blessing and a curse, I must say, sometimes. I watched my mom work in real estate while I was finishing off my high school years and so I saw the number of dinners and family events that she, unfortunately, sometimes couldn't attend or had to run out from, so at least I knew what I was in for, but there was just so much opportunity. When I finished my Bachelor of Commerce at McGill in Montreal, and had decided to move back to Alberta, I just called up my mom one day and I said, "Well, how about we work together?" She was very enthusiastic. That's how I got here.

Erin: Had there always been signs that you might head into the direction that your mom was, and did she encourage you at any point when you were growing up saying, "You should see how this all works"?

James: It was quite a shock, I think, to her. They knew I was coming back to Alberta. Family was super important to me and so moving back home, that was a default conclusion. I think she'd always seen me as a bit of an entrepreneur, somebody who would run my own business so I guess from that perspective, not a surprise. It wasn't something she thought was in the cards.

Erin: What did her life, and your family's life, show you that made it attractive to you?

James: She loved the business. She was very casual with clients but very knowledgeable. When she sat down with people, she was really able to help them with something that was significant, arguably one of the most important financial pieces of somebody's life. Knowing that just the pride and energy she put into helping people with that, I thought that was something that was very exciting.

Erin: Now, Chris, you and I have a former employer in common and that is Rogers.

Chris: Yes.

Erin: You started back in telecommunication? This is a great story too.

Chris: I worked for Rogers in Toronto for almost 12 years, and then I got headhunted and recruited out to work out east with Eastlink doing something completely different in telecommunications and managing a national team. That was for about six years. I had always been interested in business ownership, as well as real estate. I remember having a conversation, shortly after my father had passed away, with my little sister about if you could do anything, what would you do? I said I wanted to get into real estate.

My dad, he owned four different Midas franchises in the Sudbury area and I always enjoyed that side of being a business owner. It's not something that you see with young Black men too often and so that was something that he always inspired me with. At the same time, I was also very fearful. My wife at the time was a stay-at-home mom with our young son. To give up secure income, pension benefits, and everything that comes with being an employee was quite scary but at the same time, it was time for me to move on from working at Eastlink, take that leap of faith in myself, and get involved in real estate.

I've always enjoyed helping people and being part of people's lives and doing what I can to assist where needed in my community and real estate seemed like it was the right time for me to get in, get my license, and get moving. My biggest regret, 12 years in now, is that I didn't start soon enough, that I didn't have that bit of confidence and drive to take that leap of faith sooner than what I did.

Erin: It's never too late to start. The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, and the next best time is today.

Chris: This is true.

Erin: Let's talk about landing your first client. What was that experience like? I'll go back to you, James, on this one.

James: I was a little bit nervous. I was doing an open house, a listing that my mother and business partner had, and a young couple walked in, not too much older than me, which was nice because there's some built-in confidence there that comes with some similarities. I just started a great conversation with them and they really told me exactly what their goals were in terms of housing. The property seemed to be a good fit for that so shortly after that, I landed my first client and then I was writing my first deal. They got the house and it was just the best experience. The open houses, funny enough, sometimes the old ways are the good way.

Erin: Did your mom give you an ‘attaboy’ or was she surprised at all, or just proud?

James: I think she was proud. I brought home that paperwork and put it in front of her and then we had a glass of wine.

Erin: Wonderful. Chris, tell us about your first client.

Chris: I guess similar to James, the old ways are still the tried and true successful ways. Mine was when I started with my brokerage, mentor and friend of mine, Brad, encouraged me to go out door knocking, which is something I never thought I would end up doing. A gentleman invited us into his home because he was in the process of thinking about selling. He said, "Oh, Chris, you look familiar. You coach one of my sons in soccer." He says, "You can come on in."

Thankfully, what I thought was going to be Brad's experience as a realtor was going to get us that first client, in fact, it was my experience in the community and coaching soccer that got us my first seller client. Then my first buyer client happened a few months later, and that was with a former colleague of mine at Eastlink. She was looking to move communities, so she needed to find a condo that was close by. Funny enough, I moved her into condos in Eastern Passage. That was cool.

Erin: From the stats you need to know to the insight, behind those numbers, CREA.ca has at its fingertips, and therefore yours, the experts to help it all make more sense as you look towards the future. Make it a habit to visit CREA.ca for news and views, blogs, and trends. It's all there just for you. Now back to CREA board members, Chris Peters, REALTOR® and Atlantic Regional Director, and CREA chair-elect, James Mabey, a broker who manages four offices in the Edmonton area.

Now, you both have multi-dimensional careers and come from, as we've heard already, different professional and educational backgrounds. I'll start with you, James. Did you have a vision of what you wanted your career to look like?

James: This is truly my first career. 23, coming into the business straight out of university, I was having some of my very first career experiences. I studied marketing and communications at McGill University and I was hoping to build my business using those skills. I thought that that was going to be my key to success. What I actually discovered was that the experience of moving across the country and having to reestablish groups of networks and friends and the actual experience of post-secondary education in a different part of the country was more of a contributor to my success because those skills of networking and becoming part of a new community were the actual foundation of my business, and remains so till today. I thought it was going to be one thing, but it turned out to be another.

Erin: It's like you, Chris, changing lanes and going from telecommunications into real estate. Tell me what your vision was once you decided to take that leap of faith.

Chris: Honestly, I didn't have a vision, initially. That probably is what allowed me to have a slow start at first, was because I didn't properly have a vision. I just knew that this was something I could do. I figured that I had strong community connections and I would be able to rely on that. I had good people around me at my brokerage, strong training programs. I thought I knew what it meant to be a business owner just based on watching my dad with his businesses. Lo and behold that I learned that I didn't know what it meant to be a business owner. Fortunately, I had great people around me and that really started impressing upon me the need to have a vision and the need to have goals because without them you're going to be lost and you're going to be wandering around aimlessly for a little bit.

James: That's so important, Chris, that honesty is coming into it. Setting goals was something that people told me was really important. I didn't necessarily take the time to really sit down and hone a strategy. It just luckily turned out that hard work is a strategy.

Chris: It is.

James: Now I set goals all the time and I encourage our REALTORS® not just set them, but actually use them as a tool and recalibrate their business as they go through the year based on internal and external factors. I've come to appreciate how much goal setting can really influence somebody's business and help them to get to a faster start. At that time, thankfully, even though hope isn't a strategy, hard work turned out to be.

Chris: Agreed.

Erin: Hope isn't a strategy. Chris, you had a poli-sci background too. We've talked about James' education in marketing and communication. Did your poli-sci help you out in this at all?

Chris: I would definitely say it did. For me a lot of it comes down to knowing how to talk to people, engaging, again, both on telecommunications and I think a lot of my prior work dealing with customer service, just building those relationships. For me, it's all about the relationships and everything else is secondary because when you have faith and trust, it's easy to get the like, but in order to get people to know and trust you, it's about building those relationships. The political science part of it really was about engaging with different people and coming at things with an open mind and an open perspective and willing to try something new and try something different.

Erin: James, you've spoken about this, that you can be confident and you can get your clients to know you, like you, trust you, but you have talked too about the importance of having the skills to back those up. Can we talk about that a little bit?

James: For sure. You have to invest in yourself when you come into this business. You come through a licensing program, you are literally starting your own business. You will only be successful with that if you take the time to learn from the people around you. I felt very empowered because of the peers that were in my office and the people that I was taking cues from in terms of how to build a successful business. Knowing your numbers, understanding the neighborhoods, the actual tangible things that customers and clients are going to ask you about, you have to have those answers. If you don't have those answers, you have to know where to find them. That's just as important, I must say.

Take the time and make sure that those pieces of your success are resourced properly. Get the boards and associations that you're a member of, use their resources, make sure that you take the time to take courses, earn accreditations or designations. Those are fundamentally going to be hugely important in terms of long-term and being able to stay in the business. To me, those are the most important factors.

Erin: Now, Chris, when it comes to know, like, and trust, you've got a whole different kind of networking right there in the bag on the field, on the pitch. That's pretty amazing, the volunteering and being part of your community and allowing that to translate and then enhance your business. Tell us about your different kind of networking.

Chris: I always came at it from an organic perspective. I've always been a believer of: if you want your voice to be heard, you need to be at the table. If you don't think your voice is not being spoken to, well, then you need to make yourself be the one at the table. When I had my first son, my wife and I were ecstatic. Of course, from a biracial background, I wanted to make sure that his voice was heard. At the time, it wasn't a very diverse community, so I always enjoyed volunteering. I've been volunteering and coaching since probably the age of 15-16 years old.

I just took it upon myself to get involved with my son's school. Then I got involved with the local soccer club. For me, it just was something I had a lot of fun doing. I liked being able to contribute. That's the way we make our communities better is by being part of them, and if there's something that you don't like in it, then be part of that chain. When I got into real estate, people already knew, liked, and trusted me as an individual, as a soccer coach, as the person that helped their kids at the school.

I was on the Student Advisory Council. I was the chair of our PTO. People knew, liked, and trusted me and their kids knew, liked, and trusted me. It just was one of those things that now I had to translate that to, "Okay, now they need to know, like, and trust me as a REALTOR®." I had a lot of fun doing that, and I didn't realize it was something that would be as effective. I knew that people knew me because I'm a loud guy. It's hard to miss me when I walk into any room, but I didn't realize that, also, I was a trusted person. I was someone that people liked.

Erin: When we return - the recipe for immersing yourself in your area. REALTORS® Care; we know that, you know that. Find out what REALTORS® in Canada are doing to give back and also remind the community that they're there for them before, during, and after the sale. Choose which province you want to focus on and read stories that will warm your heart and inspire you to have your experience shared too. That's at CREA.ca, REALTORS® Care. Thank you for caring too. Now let's return to our chat with Chris Peters in Halifax and James Mabey in Edmonton as we continue our focus on building your name on REAL TIME.

Something that both of you have really immersed yourselves in is knowing your market. That comes with what, time, and what else? What goes into that, James?

James: Time for sure, but also research and digging. The internet has, obviously, come a long way since I started my real estate career. Of course, now you've got such amazing ways of learning about a neighborhood and even tapping into community events on social media, but that all takes a strategic approach as well. You have to be looking for that information, and to some degree, studying it, and then, of course, sharing it because that's where that confidence comes from other people, that you're not just working in real estate but that you know real estate. That is something that some new agents struggle with, is that quiet confidence where you can strike up a conversation with somebody and tell them something meaningful about the neighborhood that they live in. It takes time, but it also takes hard work.

Erin: Tell me about geographic farming. You both are really quite well-versed in this. We'll start with you again, James, if you don't mind.

James: Geographic farming is a wonderful prospecting method, especially if you're naturally inclined to networking and working within your sphere. It's an awesome way to build that and to network with more people. Especially if it's a community that you live in or work in, you are already going to have a lot of that information and insight, but then you have to be even more specific about it. You have to tap into those community events. You might host those community events.

You're going to specifically do more open houses in the neighborhoods that you're working in. You probably will get people to sign up for information on a monthly basis about sales in those neighborhoods so that they can keep the finger on the pulse. It really feels so authentic because we are community people and I think REALTORS® do that very well. Not only can you do it through technology, but it also means actually getting out and being amongst the people that you would probably be around anyways, but just being more intentional about it. I love it as a strategy for sure and I find a lot of really successful REALTORS® employ that.

Erin: How about you, Chris?

Chris: Oh, 100%. For me, it was just natural. As James says, geographical farming doesn't necessarily have to be in the area that you live, or even work, in. Most of us tend not to live and work in the same community. As a REALTOR®, I've very much invested in my community, so it just made sense for me to pick Eastern Passage and Cow Bay as the area that I wanted to geo farm because it just made it easier. I was a familiar face in the community, so I was also a trusted face. People would ask me about different things. Now to James's point, it's a matter of studying what your market is. I knew some of the best trails to go to or the little favorite fishing holes or restaurants and diners but now you have to know about how far certain communities are or certain neighborhoods are from which schools, which school zones are they in. That's important.

Our local boards and associations in conjunction with CREA offer all kinds of different tools that realtors can get to get some of those insights about what's going on in your specific neighborhood. You're not flipping through a book or looking up on your phone to find the latest stats. You know it because you live and breathe it every single day.

James: It also is worth mentioning, it doesn't even have to just be geography. A lot of REALTORS®, you can actually specifically try to work with first-time buyers by targeting properties and neighborhoods that have more first-time buyers in them. To Chris's point, it might not be the neighborhood you actually live in, but it might be that it's where you feel most comfortable. That will also come across as being authentic. There's other ways as well of doing that specific kind of networking and prospecting. It doesn't even just have to be geographic.

Erin: You both have filled us with so much wisdom that you have acquired not only through study and research but of course just from having been doing it for a number of years. Let's go back to when you were starting again and the goals that we talked about. How often did you have to calibrate those goals? James?

James: People, obviously, talk about setting smart goals. The goal isn't necessarily just financially driven or that kind of stuff. It can be also, if you've been in the business a while, you could be looking for a better work-life balance. You could be looking to reshape your business where you're working with more sellers or more buyers. It just depends. I think you have to be really thoughtful. I think you have to involve other people so that there's some accountability. Whether you're sharing that with your broker or you're sharing that even with your spouse or whoever's running your business with you, those are the important pieces. It's more than just recalibrating the goals. It's going through a thoughtful process that you're really engaged in all year, as opposed to just once a year.

Erin: Chris, you have said that your goal was not to make X amount of dollars at the end of the year or at the end of a decade. That yours was more of a sense of fulfillment. How has that worked out for you as a goal?

Chris: Initially, very poorly. I'll be honest. When you first started out, both James and I have said part of it is having that mind shift of being from an employee to a business owner, to an entrepreneur, and you need to set those goals and you need to have that vision. When I first started, I'm not motivated by money. I'm motivated more from a feelings perspective of being able to feel a level of success and engagement with both myself and my family. I enjoyed volunteering, so I still want to be able to do that. It's a matter of knowing how can I make all that work. To be honest, it took me a couple of years before I started figuring out that in order to be that successful person, you have to set some sort of goal.

For me, it wasn't so much as far as figuring out how many leads or how many deals I needed to do, but it was more so about what is it I need to accomplish? How many families, how many people do I need to help in order for me to be able to pay my mortgage, to be able to put my son in his soccer camps? Then when you put your mind shift into the fact that you're a business owner, at the end of the day it has to come down to numbers. I think to your original question is, as far as how often do you have to recalibrate that, for me, it's an ongoing thing.

I think, like what James says, it's making sure that you surround yourself with smart people. We're all in this business. Some of us are in this business with only a couple of years experience. Some of us are in this business and we're bringing baggage and experience from a previous career, but we're joining, in most cases, brokerages that have tons of successful people, amazing training programs. One of the big things that you learn is that you're constantly recalibrating what your goals are.

Our market shift, our industry shifts based on things that we have no control over, such as the Bank of Canada raising interest rates eight times in one year. We don't have a control over that, so that's going to change things. We have to constantly be recalibrating what our goals and metrics are to ensure that, as James says, that they're smart goals and that they're realistic, and that they still fit with what our game plans are. It's about knowing what that balance is and always making those adjustments in your business.

Erin: We'll talk more about balance, that all-important element of keeping your mental state and business healthy. If you're enjoying episode 38 of REAL TIME, and we hope you are, why not subscribe so you don't miss a future episode and go back into some of our previous conversations from decor to destigmatization; from advertising to analysis. You'll find a selection of podcast topics as diverse as our REALTOR® community and the people we serve. You're already here, so why not explore, right?

Right now, let's jump back into our conversation on building your name with CREA chair-elect, James Mabey, and CREA Atlantic chair, Chris Peters, on REAL TIME. Balance has become something that is so important to the next generation of REALTORS® coming up. I mean, it is to all of us. You're listening to someone who took one week off when I had a baby back in the early '90s doing my part of the broadcast from the radio show at home because that balance was not something that was going to be attainable if I was going to succeed.

What do you see in the new REALTORS® coming up or potential ones when they come in? Do you see yourselves or do you see the newer mindset that hustle culture is out and I want to have a full life, as well as a full career? I'm going to start with you, James, on this thought.

James: I think it's important to know what the thought process is and where people are at. You have to meet them where they're at when they're coming into the business. It's not just about the numbers. You have to talk to them about what it is that success looks like and feels like for them. That's where you start. If they do tell you that they're looking for a certain balance and a certain lifestyle, then you have to be able to advise them about systems and tools that they could use in order to make sure that they work smarter and not harder.

Fundamentally, of course, we have to go to work every day in order to be successful, in order to generate success for ourselves, success for our families, and success for our clients but at the same time, it is possible to, through the use of technology and systems, reduce the burden on yourself, individually. That's when people start to grow teams. That's when people start to bring in assistance. It isn't just one thing that you start with as a new REALTOR®, you're going to grow into your business. If that balance is important, you'll find ways to do that, and I think that's admirable.

Erin: How about you, Chris? You've got a son who's just about to enter university. Say he's like James and comes out of it and says, "You know what? No, I want to follow in your footsteps, Dad." What would you impart to him that maybe he doesn't already know or has he seen from you, the ins and outs of the business?

Chris: He's definitely seen the ins and outs of how I run my business. I think like what James says, we all run our real estate businesses different based on who we are as individuals and also who, and how, we choose to connect with people. That makes a big difference on what you're going to get out of the business and how you get that out. I do it very much based on my community. I do a lot of my business through referrals from other agents, from business organizations. I immerse myself in my community. I'm part of several different boards I'm on. For me, that would be the big thing for any new agent is making sure that, one, I think that there is still very much that hustle and grind to this business, especially at the start. James was making a comment about being persistent and intentional and consistent, and I think that when you're starting to build your business, I think one of the things that people newly getting into this industry have to remember, is that like any other business, you're going to spend a lot of hours building your business first before you can even think about putting it on cruise control.

People are asking you for their faith and trust and putting a lot of trust in you. Whether they're buying a home or they're selling their home or resizing, they're putting that trust in you that you've got to give back to them, understand where they're coming from, and like James said, it doesn't have to be a geography, it could be a target market because that's who you want to do.

James: I'd love to echo Chris's sentiment here. I think that there's this false equivalency people put with hustle and being in a rush or being out of control. Hustle means that you're very much in control but you're being intentional about things. I, for one, am never too busy to sit and have a cup of coffee with my client. I am never too busy to really listen to them and make a personal connection, and that is what I hear Chris describing as well, is that you work hard but you work hard at being valued by your client.

Chris: James is right because the one thing that I will find that people will say to me frequently is, "Chris, how do you find all the time to do all that stuff?," because either I'm on the board of directors at CREA, I'm on several other boards and committees, I volunteer in my community, I'm a father, I'm a husband and, oh, by the way, I'm also a full-time REALTOR®. I'm a successful REALTOR® in the sense of people looking at the number of transactions or people looking at the dollar sales. There is a lot of hustle. It doesn't have to be frantic. It's a matter of learning how to balance that and how to layer it.

I'm able to do a lot of the stuff I do, a lot of my networking, a lot of my connections, and engaging with people. I'm on the border with the directors at the Youth Running Series and we just had a big run this past weekend. I saw a number of my clients at that event and I was able to talk to them about what we're doing, our next steps, because you're layering all the different things that you do. It doesn't have to be a hustle and crazy rush but it is a bit of a grind.

Erin: Up next, a completely organic and eye-opening way of getting your name out there when luck equals preparedness and opportunity. Be sure to keep up with the latest info and links by following CREA.ca on Instagram and Twitter via the handles @crea_aci. Don't miss inspiration and information right there on your favorite social media platforms. Now, let's return to our chat with Chris Peters in Halifax and James Mabey in Edmonton on REAL TIME.

Tell me about some of the other ways that you integrated what other REALTORS® were doing but made them your own, James.

James: There's nothing new under the sun. Technology has changed some of the landscape but we've already alluded to the fact that some of the tried true, and tested ways of selling real estate still actually work. I took time to sit down with the people who I saw being successful in my office and they were very kind. They would share insights about what things worked well for them. It can still be authentically you because you take a little of column A and a little of column B and then, suddenly, that's how James Mabey sells real estate. That's really the secret sauce, is that you can make it personal and unique to yourself by just making sure that the things that you're using, the tactics that you're using to build your business, also fit with your personality and your style because we are not all the same.

Chris and I both have built businesses through networking and sphere contacts and geographic farming. There's also other ways to build a real estate business. If you know yourself really well, then that's where that personalized touch will come in, collecting testimonials, staying in touch through a CRM, joining networking groups, all of those pieces are going to be right for some but not for all, and use the strategies that you see being successful around you in the right combination to make it unique to you.

Erin: Yes. Consistency, Chris, is something that is so important as well, yes?

Chris: Yes. James has talked about doing some of the simple things especially when you're first starting out like building a- one, identifying the CRM that you're going to use. The best CRM is the one that you'll use but then it's a matter of spending that time and effort and building into it and then consistently staying active in it. There's no point in spending hours, days or even weeks, putting all this content into something that is going to be your backbone which is your sphere and your CRM unless you're going to be consistently using it.

Find out what works for you, what makes you authentic. There are all kinds of different ways that you can build your real estate business. Model after someone that you find inspires you within your office. It could be at another office. Most REALTORS® are going to share their formulas of success. Part of that is also learning some of the failures that they've had along the way. That is what makes us a successful industry, but that's what makes you as a successful business owner, is knowing that you're not starting from square one, but what you're doing, you're doing it consistently because it is what works for you. If it's no longer working for you, and you're putting the effort in, then it's time to try something different and something new.

James: New agents do not have to create everything from scratch. We have amazing content even through the Living Room Blog for REALTOR.ca. There is a huge mix of things out there and everybody feels so burdened, I think, by trying to create content these days. The truth of the matter is that you have to create some of the content for it to be you, for it to feel authentic as we've discussed, but leverage the stuff that's out there already. There are so many wonderful resources to avail yourself of within the REALTOR® community.

Chris: Put your own spin on stuff.

Erin: Absolutely. Really, the education never ends as well. Even if we just look at a tech standpoint and where we were five years ago and the tools that we're using now. You start off with four weeks in a class to get your license, for example, but it doesn't end there, does it, Chris?

Chris: No. For the most part, every single regulator in the province has mandatory courses that you have to take. Some of your local boards and associations may also have courses that you can take. For me, it was a matter of, also, totally immersing myself in this industry. I find if this family is going to trust me and invest their time and effort in me to be their REALTOR® and either help them find a home or sell their home for them or even an investment property, then I felt it was my responsibility to invest in myself, to become all that I can be and the best that I could be. That meant taking additional courses that my broker offered.

One of the great tools that we have at CREA is the Learning Hub. It's something that we offer to all local boards and associations where we have content, as James has alluded to, on there from CREA. Local boards and associations put their own additional learning content on that. I know in Nova Scotia, we're constantly loading up information with regards to local webinars that we do, additional education from attending real estate conferences, your brokerage. If you're with a large national organization, likely have real estate conferences.

There's all sorts of opportunities that you can get learnings from, lunch and learns. Learn from those people who are around you, but also learn from other industry partners, whether it be local home inspectors, your mortgage brokers, lawyers. There's tons of learning to do. The more that you immerse yourself in it, the better you are able to serve your clients, which means you're building on that initial concept that we talked at the very beginning of this, was like, know, and trust. They turn to you as a leader and as a subject-matter expert, and that's because you're continually investing in yourself in education.

Erin: Up next, knowing yourself, working what works, and learning from what doesn't. James mentioned CREA.ca Living Room. It has more useful information in one spot than my own living room has dust bunnies. Thanks to a new dog. From tax benefits for homeowners, to the benefits of using a REALTOR® when renting, decor tips like combining different tastes in the same space, and so much more, Living Room is the place to enjoy a wealth of great stories that will better the lives of your client and you. Visit CREA.ca and spend some time in our Living Room.

Now back to CREA board members, Chris Peters, REALTOR® and Atlantic Regional director, and CREA chair-elect, James Mabey, a broker who manages four offices in the Edmonton area on REAL TIME. James, do any lessons stick out to you from your early days as a REALTOR® as to what worked and what didn't work, the things that we do have to learn? We have to learn from the things that didn't work, too.

James: There were many things that did not work, just to be clear. The things that did work were the things that leveraged my own style and the way that I wanted to build business. If you haven't got your DiSC analysis and figured out who you are and what makes you tick, it's pretty tough to pick a strategy. Know yourself, I think that is a big lesson to be learned when you're starting out. As your business changes and you spend more time working with clients instead of as much time maybe as you should trying to find the next client because you have to keep feeding that funnel, be consistent.

You have to make sure that you're putting just as much effort into working on the business as you are working in the business so that you've built something that will offer you consistent results. One of the terrible things about real estate that takes a lot of people out is the inconsistency of it. It's that ebb and flow of the market and that kind of stuff. If you take the time to be consistent and to do the activities that you know will breed success, they are taught in every course, and you do those things day after day, week after week, year after year, you're setting yourself up for a long-term business success.

As an entrepreneur, that's the holy grail. That's what I learned from my peers around me when I asked them, day one in real estate, what is it that makes your phone ring? They told me just to be consistent and to make sure that I employed the tactics that were going to work for me but did it in a really consistent and effective way continuously.

Erin: You, Chris, as someone who didn't grow up surrounded by the real estate business, how has your approach to business changed over the years from when you started out?

Chris: I would say, one, it was just knowing what works for me. Obviously, the first thing I did was something that my mentor had asked me to do and that was going out door and knocking. For me, it didn't feel authentic. It didn't feel truly me. Walking up and knocking on someone's door and saying, "Hey, when do you plan on moving?" wasn't me, however, do I enjoy engaging and talking with people? 100% but I do it differently.

It was a matter of knowing what works for me, what doesn't work for me. I tried going to those networking functions where there were other like-minded business leaders, REALTORS®, real estate agents, those type of networking functions which most people think that would be a perfect fit for me. It wasn't my cup of tea but I would prefer to go to the local PTO. I would prefer to go to a local charity event. That, for me, was more, as James says, know who you are, know what makes you tick, and then find a way to leverage that to your advantage to make your business work for you. If you've got the passion for it, then find what makes you passionate about it, and use that to your advantage.

Erin: If I'm inferring correctly from what you're both saying, it's two main things: be consistent, and be yourself. There is nobody else out there who is you. Is there anything that I'm missing here in a trait, and I'll start with you, James, that you've noticed among realtors who have successfully set themselves apart?

James: I noticed that in my colleague Chris here. They put their clients first. That is the fundamental thing. If I look at all of the people who have been successful in this business, it's that they focus on the clients and helping them meet their goals. They're not focused on the paycheck. Sales are great. We love in this REALTOR® community to celebrate the success of our peers, but it's the people for whom that is secondary and primary is their client relationship and making sure that they've reached a desired outcome for their clients.

Erin: And you, Chris?

Chris: I would add to that the old saying giving starts the process of receiving. I think what value are you offering to people to make them want to come to you, to make them believe in you? That goes a long way. I think from an education perspective, the process of getting your license teaches you the basics of trading in real estate, but it doesn't teach you about being a business owner. If you start understanding what that process is as a new agent and knowing that to be a successful business owner, you've got to be authentically you and you've got to put the people first, it's about the relationships that you create, and creating those relationships will bring the transactions to you.

Erin: When we wrap up on this all-encompassing talk today, if I knew then what I know now, as Chris and James share more of their wisdom. Look, we've all heard the saying there are no dumb questions, right? Many of us would rather have somebody else ask them, we're not alone. The most popular post on CREA.ca so far in 2023 is REALTORS® answering the most Googled real estate questions. Check it out. The answers are all there.

Now our final segment of this enlightening REAL TIME discussion with Chris Peters and James Mabey, two working REALTORS® who want to help others find their way too, and then we're going to hear from a few other REALTORS® to share their wisdom. James, you were 23 when you started out as a realtor. Can I ask you, Chris, how old you were?

Chris: 38.

Erin: Okay. What is the one thing you wish you knew starting out? Now, Chris, you've already referred to being a business owner and that mindset, but what else do you wish that you could go back and tell 38-year-old Chris as he was making this huge leap into a new career?

Chris: Oh, good golly. I would say first and foremost it's respecting the fact that real estate is a business. Who you are, knowing what you're about, knowing why people already know, like, and trust you, and working that to your advantage. People gather around you for a reason. Most people who are in real estate are doing this because they're genuinely passionate about helping people. I think if I had known that that was what I needed to be doing right out of the gate and be able to set goals around that, that would probably be the biggest thing I would tell 38-year-old Chris Peters, is focus on your goals of how you intend to help people because that is what's going to help you get the sales activity that you need to make this career a success.

Erin: James, what do you wish you'd told 23-year-old James Mabey?

James: I wish I could go back and just tell myself it was all going to work out.

James: Strangely, not knowing that it was going to work out and being motivated to work hard and to get engaged and to be involved was probably the thing that contributed to success for me. It's funny because it's a double-edged sword. It'd be nice to have that certainty, but it's that uncertainty that probably drives a lot of people to find success. I also, as a Virgo and have some slight OCD, I thought everything had to be perfect. I came out with this marketing and communications background and everything was creation of content myself and all this other stuff. I would really like to remind myself back then that 95% perfect but 100% done is a heck of a lot better than 100 % perfect and never done.

Erin: Chris?

Chris: From my perspective, it's knowing what your deadlines are and really tracking that detail and the accountability. When you're an employee, you're responsible to me, my operations director, or my vice president, as well as my employees who report to me. As a business owner and as a REALTOR®, I'm responsible to myself and to my clients. It's hard to keep your clients on track if you're not on track yourself. There are certain things that your clients need to do as buyers and sellers and if you're not, yourself, organized and staying consistent and persistent, and as James says, intentional, then it's hard to ask them to do that.

You're going to have all different personalities. I'm working with a client right now who's very much about spreadsheets and color coding things and itemizing things, and it's great. It works for him. I have to fit that into my schedule when I talk to him, present that communication in the way he needs to receive it. It's a matter of knowing that I have all of that stuff.

Erin: James, you and I are at a dinner party. First, we're going to talk about dogs, and then I'm going to ask what you do, and you're going to tell me you're a REALTOR®.I'm going to say, "I love those home design and home sales shows on TV. I think I'd like to be a REALTOR®." What would you say to me?

James: I'm not a big sports person, but I tell you, that's like playing fantasy football. Those shows are very contrived and they do not reflect the blood, sweat, and tears that go into real estate. Of course, I say it in a very nice way, but I would try to disabuse you of the notion that what you see on TV is actually what success in real estate looks like. That being said, I'd probably also ask you a lot of other questions about what your other backgrounds are that you think might contribute to your success, where you think your clients might come from.

All of those points and questions I might ask you would just drive at that centralized point, which is that becoming a REALTOR® is the equivalent of starting your own business. That's really what you have to feel passionate about. You have to have that entrepreneurship in order to come into this business and feel like it's right for you, but also to achieve those results. That's what I would share with you.

Erin: Chris?

Chris: Those TV shows are so structured and they spend days filming that one clip. If I could find a home for every single buyer after only looking at three homes and tell them, "You can only pick from these three and nothing else because nothing else is out there for you," oh, gosh, that would make life so much different, probably easier, but that's not the way it works.

Erin: Yes. You've said you don't try at real estate. It's not something that you dabble in. Is that right? You're all in, right?

Chris: Oh, a pet peeve of mine is when I hear someone say, "Oh, I think I want to give real estate a try." It comes down to, like you said, about people have these preconceived notions of what it is to be a REALTOR®. I think that real estate is about the long game. It's about building relationships. It's about being all in. If you're not prepared to be all in for both yourself as a business owner and for your clients, who are investing and entrusting you, then I think you're selling both yourself short, but you're also not doing any favors for your clients.

Erin: From all in to all out of time, it has been such a pleasure to talk to you both today. Your insight and wisdom and humor and everything. It's just been a joy. Thank you so much, Chris and James. We so appreciate it.

Chris: It was a pleasure. Thank you, Erin.

James: It was awesome. Thanks, Erin. You are the best.

Erin: Now let's hear a few other CREA members' insights on building your name.

Donna Mathewson: Hi, it's Donna Mathewson from the Ontario Real Estate Association. My advice that I would give to any new agent starting out in this business would be to make sure and maintain your integrity, be honest, and be ready to work hard. Real estate is a very engaging and very rewarding career, but it's one that you get out of what you put into.

Rob Longo: Hi, I'm Rob Longo from Sarnia, Ontario. Something that I wish I knew when I started out as a REALTOR® was patience. I think one of the biggest things we find as new REALTORS® is that we want to be successful very quickly and very early, and we see the success that others are having. The biggest thing is patience. Take your time, build that business into a long-term career that you're going to be able to enjoy for decades to come.

Tania Artenosi: Hi, I'm Tania Artenosi, and I'm a broker-owner from the GTA to Muskoka with eight offices. My best advice for new REALTORS® starting out in the business is to go out and meet people, have conversations, and build relationships with new clients, future clients, families, and friends. You'll never know where your first client is going to come from, so go out there and have conversations.

Erin: Thank you, Donna, Rob, and Tania. We are so grateful to you and to James and Chris for sharing your wisdom. REAL TIME is a production of Alphabet® Creative with technical magic by Rob Whitehead of Real Family Productions. I'm Erin Davis, thanking you so much for joining us. We can't wait to welcome you back for the next episode of REAL TIME. Talk to you then.

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Erin Davis: Hi, there. Welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS® It's brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association or CREA. Let's talk REALTOR.ca, shall we? It's Canada's most popular and trusted real estate platform, developed and operated by CREA. On behalf of its REALTORS® members, REALTOR.ca keeps REALTORS®, you, at the heart of the real estate transaction, while providing the most comprehensive collection of listings to help guide property buyers, sellers, and renters.

On this episode of REAL TIME, we look at the future of Canada's real estate landscape. Not only that, we are peering into what's coming in the world of tech. It's fast-paced and the stakes are high. Tying these two together, we asked, how can REALTOR.ca secure its relevancy in this increasingly competitive space? Joining us today as we examine what kind of vision has gone into shifting REALTOR.ca from a not-for-profit association-driven product to a wholly owned for-profit subsidiary of CREA, what does it all mean, and how will it expand its potential for you, for REALTORS® and your clients? This is going to be a fascinating chat. Here we go.

Let's start by introducing who's joining us. First, we'd like to introduce, also from the West Coast, Jill Oudil. Jill, welcome. Tell us about yourself.

Jill Oudil: Hi, Erin. Thanks. Nice to be here. My name is Jill Oudil, as you said. I am the current chair of CREA, the Canadian Real Estate Association. I can also say that I am proud to be a realtor and I have been for, I want to say, well over 30 years, actually. I'm a second generation too.

Erin: Wow. Okay. Nice to have you here. We also have Patrick Pichette. Everybody knows Patrick, but go ahead, Patrick, make the introductions.

Patrick Pichette: Thanks, Erin. Nice to be back. Patrick Pichette, Vice President REALTOR.ca. Consumer and realtor technology is one of our pillars at CREA, so I'm responsible for the roadmap of our various technology products. I also have the privilege of leading a very talented and enthusiastic technology team.

Erin: Excellent. That includes REALTOR.ca. That gentleman sitting next to you, we all know Andrew. Andrew, go ahead.

Andrew Jackson: Hey, Erin. Hi, everyone. My name's Andrew Jackson. I'm the head of business development for the Canadian Real Estate Association. It is great to be back.

Erin: It's nice to have you back, all three of you, Jill, Patrick, Andrew. Now, I know I go to REALTOR.ca when I'm searching for real estate, and frankly, that's far too often for my husband's liking, because I get the itch, or even when I'm in the mood to browse. Honestly, you want to see what's going on in your neighborhood, what's happening with all the listings, but I'll be honest, I've never really given much thought to its operations, so we're going to open the curtains here. Jill, perhaps we can start there. What role does CREA's board of directors have when it comes to REALTOR.ca?

Jill: Sure. Thanks, Erin. Well, our board of directors actually provides strategic oversight to the whole organization. We have a great board. We really care about what's best for REALTORS®. Our strategic plan has three pillars, actually. One of those is technology, which includes REALTOR.ca.

Erin: What are the other two pillars?

Jill: Actually, the other two pillars are advocacy and also REALTORS® reputation. I can tell you that our strategic plan is supportive of innovative tools. As long as we're providing things to REALTOR.ca that helps REALTORS® remain relevant with consumers, the decision to turn REALTOR.ca into a for-profit subsidiary of CREA was a result of our strategic planning process in the last couple of years. We want to make sure that we ensure REALTOR.ca continues to bring value to both REALTORS®, but also, of course, as well as the consumer and our clients.

Erin: Yes. Continuing to bring value to REALTORS® and consumers, I can understand the underlying importance of this move. Now, Andrew, give us a little bit more of a look behind that curtain that I mentioned. How is REALTOR.ca managed and funded?

Andrew: Absolutely. REALTOR.ca, for many years, actually, has been managed and operated within the Canadian Real Estate Association, which is a not-for-profit organization. REALTOR.ca is one of, if not, the most valued member benefit enjoyed by Canadian REALTORS®. It is primarily funded through their membership dues. However, there are also some revenue streams from services such as DDF, which stands for Data Distribution Facility. It's actually a mechanism by which REALTORS® can have their listings distributed onwards into partners that are connected to REALTOR.ca.

Erin: Okay. Well, it's clear that REALTORS® are embedded in the platform's mission, you get that from its name, obviously, but Jill, as chair, how does it add value for REALTORS®?

Jill: Well, we make sure that it adds value for REALTORS®. I think that what is really important is that what's good for clients and the consumer is what's good for REALTORS®. It's actually both. It does provide other things. There is a listing stats app that's related to that, that our REALTORS® can provide information and direct correspondence and statistics to the clients, which is amazing. Then also, of course, REALTOR.ca helps REALTORS® be top of mind with our customers. It's so important that we have that connection.

Erin: Absolutely. Patrick, what do you have to say about this?

Patrick: Just to build on what Jill was saying, just to paint a picture of the relevancy of REALTOR.ca in the marketplace. It has a 48% market share, meaning 48% of all Canadians who use real estate sites and apps have REALTOR.ca as one of their destinations. That's a monthly percentage where there are some months where we've hit over 50%. This rarely happens in any industry where you have a market leader that has that kind of market presence.

Also, there are some major companies that have aligned their brands with REALTOR.ca. I think my favorite example is probably Apple. When they launched iOS 15, they included the REALTOR.ca app as part of their promotion. There we were next to Ted Lasso and Justin Bieber. There's many other examples. TD is another one that comes to mind. If you visit the TD Bank website and you look up the mortgage affordability calculator, and you use that tool, you put in your information and it spits out an ideal range for you, as part of that result, it will show you listings that fall within your range from REALTOR.ca. To see the full listing, you have to click through to REALTOR.ca, and that lead goes directly to our members.

That kind of visibility, you can't buy that. It's earned. It just speaks to the strength of the REALTOR.ca brand and how much credibility it has in the marketplace. Even my friend at ChatGPT agrees. I must have tried 20 or different queries about where to find real estate information. Every time REALTOR.ca is number one. I don't know if you've all tried it or not, but it's scary actually how smart it's getting over time. Just to add, again, to what Jill was saying, we're quite fortunate to have this powerhouse brand that's out in the marketplace. At the end of the day, it's generating business opportunities for our members.

Every year we send over five million leads back to REALTORS® in the form of email and phone leads. This comes at no cost above and beyond membership dues. This is something that's unique anywhere in the world, that the market-leading platform is owned by REALTORS® it's exclusive for them, and they get to benefit from the leads without paying any additional fees.

Erin: Wow. Then maybe, Andrew, you can address this. Why the shift to a for-profit structure?

Andrew: The shift to a for-profit structure is fundamentally about allowing us to grow revenues and to access new levels of funding, funding that's really needed for the business and needed to make into different areas for investment. Really I think of four main areas. The first and foremost is the talent, the team that's required to build this. We're constantly needing to retain, but also attract new talent. The roadmap that Patrick speaks to, needing to deliver to that roadmap, but also to accelerate delivery to that roadmap.

Also, we just talked about ChatGPT, and there's lots of examples of emerging technology in the 10 years here that Patrick has seen. I'm sure you've seen lots of emerging technologies, Patrick. Really, we need to make sure that we're on top of that and that we're always leveraging what is appropriate for us to stay on top of there. Then last but not least is really about making sure that our visibility and our reach is always there. Even if you have a leading position you can't take that for granted. You can't rest on your laurels.

Now, I will say that, obviously, not-for-profits have strict limitations on things, whether that's things like the revenue model or the types of revenues. Even the timing of revenue and when you can recognize it and when you can spend those revenues all come with constraints in a not-for-profit context. Really why we're creating this now is to create a for-profit subsidiary that really frees up some of those constraints so that CREA can better fulfill its mission. We also like to think that it's actually a little bit more than that. It's also about really building here a PropTech contender that is realtor owned and that is there to fight for a future that is friendly for our members.

Erin: Patrick, do you have anything to add to that?

Patrick: Oh, absolutely. As Andrew mentioned, I've been here for 10 years now, so I'm really excited about this move. REALTOR.ca is no longer just a website, it's evolved into a very comprehensive platform. It has a web version that's accessible through desktop. It's got one for your mobile browser. It's got standalone apps for Apple and Android. As Jill mentioned, there's an app that is exclusive for members. By the way, if you're a realtor and you're listening to this podcast, if you don't have the version of the REALTOR.ca app that's for agents and brokers, go to your app store, do a search for REALTOR.ca and look for the version with the black R icon.

The red one is the regular REALTOR.ca site. Hopefully, you've got that one on your phone as well, but grab the one that's for agents and brokers. That will allow you to do a few really useful things. First of all, it will allow you to see your listing stats for REALTOR.ca, as well as all your DDF destinations. It also allows you to share some really slick reports with your clients. You can fire those off through text message or email. You can manage your leads as well, so have a look.

Just to come back to the platform conversation, Erin, Andrew mentioned DDF, which is part of the platform as well. Also, we've built a platform now where other solutions have integrated into it. For example, we've got about a dozen different video and 3D virtual tour applications integrated into REALTOR.ca. There are three different realtor rating tools that also integrate REALTOR.ca. We've built this platform that makes it easy for tools that REALTORS® use on a day-to-day basis to integrate with. I think it's really important to highlight the fact that we've evolved from a website to a platform.

Andrew is right, there's so much capital and innovation coming into our industry. There's about 450 known PropTech companies in Canada alone, about 5,000 across North America. All this innovation is great news for REALTORS®. It's great news for consumers. It means better tools, more useful platforms, but it's also imperative that REALTOR.ca still be relevant in this ecosystem, and not just for the next few years, but the next few decades.

Erin: It strikes me as you talk that it seems like a gathering place, one-stop shopping, if you will, for REALTORS® and consumers alike, who can find what they need without having to look at all of these different PropTechs and everything that are out there right now. Honestly, I find it mind-boggling, but just to be able to go someplace where it's all been verified and the best have been chosen for people to use. Am I reading this right, Jill, as a realtor and the chair of CREA, are you excited about this place as that one-stop shopping, if you will?

Jill: Absolutely. It's an amazing site. I think that we're competitive. There's so much innovation in the tech space right now, and we want to make sure that we continue to be in this race. I would say that we're not only fortunate really, but there's been a lot of hard work that's come up to where we're at today. I have to give CREA's staff, Patrick, a good thing it's a podcast or you'd be blushing maybe, but they're amazing, honestly, to keep us at the level that we're at now. Andrew said it very well, is don't rest on your laurels.

The fact is, is we're not lucky, we worked hard to get here, but we want to make sure that our site continues to have the mission of ensuring that REALTORS® remain at the heart of the real estate transaction. It is important and we absolutely have to make sure that we stay in this race.

Erin: Yes, by looking down the road and seeing what the future holds. As much as that's possible, Andrew, what will be important for REALTOR.ca to get right as it shifts to this new structure?

Andrew: Of course, with Patrick and Jill here, I think that there's lots of assurance to make sure that we are going to get things right, but I would reflect on really the following things, and they're actually things that helped, I think, lead us to this current position of market leadership. Really four different things in my mind. The first, again, is team. Patrick and I both have a background in technology companies and we believe in the importance of getting the right talent into the right positions at the right time. That has been the philosophy and will need to continue to be the philosophy. In fact, even more as we look to grow the team and add in new dimensions of capabilities for the next journey.

The second is really about resourcing and access to resources. It's really critical that the new REALTOR.ca have access to funding and funding models that it's going to allow it to really accelerate things like the roadmap or other investments. One of the things that's obviously critical is oversight and governance and a governance that continues to be supportive of the vision that involves experienced individuals who have experience in a growth journey similar to this one, for example, and of course, free of conflict.

The last one, which we keep coming back to but I think it's really critical here is alignment. It's really critical that REALTOR.ca maintain its alignment to its core mission, which you've heard from Jill and from Patrick, which is to keep REALTORS® at the heart of the real estate transaction.

Erin: We'll be back with Andrew, Patrick, and Jill in just a moment. It includes some outstanding news on what's going to be getting a test rollout at REALTOR.ca in the months to come. It is so exciting.

When you've got some time, why not check out CREA Café on REALTOR.ca? It's a great place to peruse everything from stories about interest rates and their effects on your life and work to some fascinating pieces like "5 Questions Your Client Should Ask a Condo Board Before Buying," how CREA WEBForms can help your business, and even some of the most unusual bylaws in Canada that you should know about, from the length of the grass to whether your client needs to check out the rules before owning a parrot. It's all there. Spend some time with us at CREA Café right there at REALTOR.ca.

Now back to this REALTOR.ca-focused episode of REAL TIME with our guests Andrew Jackson, CREA's head of business development; Jill Oudil, chair of CREA; plus the VP of REALTOR.ca, Patrick Pichette. Patrick, you talked about being number one in market share, I'm going to open the curtains a little bit more here. If you would, though, can you share your REALTOR.ca secret sauce, so to speak? Please tell me it's keto. No, I'm kidding. What is your secret sauce?

Patrick: Well, we wanted to validate this recently, so we did some comprehensive consumer research, which we do on an annual basis, but this year we wanted to have a laser focus on why has the public rewarded REALTOR.ca with the top position. If we look into what the research is telling us, the consumer has chosen REALTOR.ca as a preferred platform for three key reasons. The first attribute will be trust. Trust that's been earned throughout the years by providing a full, accurate current view of the market, quality of the information, and also consistency of the user experience.

You could be looking at any listing anywhere in the country and the experience is fairly consistent across the board, which is something that users really value. Also, as I mentioned earlier, REALTOR.ca is accessible regardless of what device you use. There are very few real estate brands that actually provide that level of connectivity. The second attribute would be transparency. Along those same lines, Canadians appreciate the transparency of the information that they get from REALTOR.ca.

There's no account needed. Although you can set up an account to save your preferences and set up your notifications, you don't have to set up an account to simply see the listing information. Also, where possible, we've been adding more information like sold price history. In certain places, we now have the status of a listing. For example, if a listing is conditionally sold, there will be a label on the listing that will indicate that. That kind of information is very, very appreciated, and it's expected by consumers.

The third quality is the fact that REALTOR.ca is unbiased. It represents all REALTORS® across the country and their listings. Consumers recognize the value of having that one single source where they can see the entire inventory. Definitely, having all the listings is a strong part of the value proposition. What has driven the growth, like I mentioned earlier, from 25% to 48% market share, that kind of growth over the last 5 years, what's driven that growth has been the focus on trust, transparency, and remaining unbiased.

Erin: I think that, Jill, you can speak to this, no matter what the market or even the economy is doing at any given time, just how important it is that mutual trust. You must experience this every day as a realtor.

Jill: Well said. Mutual trust is really important with our clients because that's the foundation of our business. We want to do what's best for our clients and help them through the whole process.

Erin: What this is, is just building on that. Thank you, Jill. Things are good. You've captured people's attention. You're the market leader as we've been hearing you say. Tell me this, why is this the time to make this shift? Andrew.

Andrew: Actually, I think you've just laid out the reasons to make the shift. It's precisely for those reasons. It's much better to lean into this sort of a change from a position of strength and leadership. We know we've done really well competing in the so-called portal wars, as I like to call it, but the battlefields ahead are different. We need to be able to maintain our success into that next chapter and for years to come for REALTORS®. Again, we can't rest on our laurels and assume that the success that we've had from this past decade just automatically secures our future.

I love that Patrick has shared all of the wonderful insights that we've gained over why consumers and how consumers have rewarded us with that position. We are very data-driven, and we're always looking for the story beneath the story, really. As such, we know which consumer segments in which we are historically strong, but we also know in which ones we're not. We know where we have achieved, let's call it consumer preference, but we also know where we have yet to achieve consumer loyalty. These are the sorts of things that really drive us and drive the team to say, "We believe that now is the time to take that next step and not get complacent."

Erin: The ditches are full of the remnants of companies or organizations that thought they had it and were able to sit back and put their feet up. How about some of those companies that got obsolete? Do you and Patrick have any insight so that we can look at those and go, "Yes, not us"?

Andrew: I feel we could play Bingo with them.

Patrick: We have a Myspace, but you're right, Erin, history is filled with companies who had a comfortable lead, became complacent, and then lost market share or disappeared altogether. One that's top of mind for me is I grew up in Hamilton and a company nearby, Blackberry RIM, had such a lead and then had Apple reinvent that whole space. To Andrew's point, never take your lead for granted. You have to pay attention to the data, you have to pay attention to early signals, and you have to get ahead of it because once you lose that lead, you never get it back.

Andrew: Just to build on that, the other reason for that is in the technology industry it's constantly reinventing and lines are being cast in new areas and new ways. Like I said, the portal wars, portals were a category for the past 10 years or so, but will that remain? Where will the lines be drawn now? We've seen that happen time and time again where in fact there could be a whole category of independent vendors that all of a sudden the next year it's completely erased because one of the major platforms has added some new capability into its system and so that independent category no longer exists.

We know that the technology industry, PropTech included, is constantly reinventing, and we know that a victory in one lane does not mean a victory in the next. That's what we're building here, is making sure that this is a strong and vibrant, and nimble technology company that can sustain through those transitions.

Erin: To carry on with that metaphor, the intersection of opportunity and preparedness is where success is met. Jill, I think you can speak to this and the readiness of leadership to do this thing.

Jill: Yes, absolutely. Our leadership on our board is ready. It's been talked about for so many years moving in this direction. Actually, there's many other boards and associations across the country that also now own for-profits and have done similar things. Our clients are looking at other sources for information. Information is needed now. They want the information, and there's lots of innovation in this space. This is great for our industry, but we need to make sure that we're continually the trusted source and the one that consumers want to go to to get their information and their data.

Erin: Yes. As much as computers and ChatGPT is really entering the conversation, it's that human connection, that human trust that you have built up for as you say your three decades as a realtor now and, of course, as chair of CREA. That human touch will never be replaced. Andrew, I do have a question for you. Are we going to expect to see banner ads everywhere?

Andrew: Oh my goodness. Yes, really. No. Thankfully it's not 1995. First of all, the serious answer to that question is why would we begin to do things that go completely against what led us to this point of success? We just wouldn't do that. We don't need to, it doesn't make sense. With the market share numbers that Patrick just shared, we have a core audience that is highly engaged, and that's something that these other sites may not necessarily have. Our job is not to replicate the models of those sites, it's really to find new ways to bring value to our existing core audiences, that's both REALTORS® and consumers.

That could be either from value that REALTOR.ca delivers or via a selection of brands or providers that we choose to facilitate access to. I'd like to give you an example if that would be helpful.

Erin: Sure.

Andrew: Okay, cool. For example, one of the popular areas on REALTOR.ca actually is a blog, a blog that we call Living Room. It's got lots of great lifestyle content. This is an area very popular with consumers. Of course, when you think about it, it would be a very natural area for us to explore promotional partnership opportunities for with, for example, other lifestyle brands. Maybe another example as well is that we're frequently approached by PropTech companies looking to offer innovative products and solutions to REALTORS®. Many of them really make sense to do that with.

It would make sense that we would have a program or a marketplace that would allow us to vet those and really work with those vendors to refine offerings that make sense for our market and facilitate their exposure. This is actually the kind of thing, I'm thinking, Patrick, we've done this on an ad-hoc basis in the past successfully with companies like Matterport or even RealSatisfied. I know that we're currently working on some things with open offers that would fall into this category as well. Those are some examples of everything but banner ads, Erin.

Erin: I love that it sounds so organic, especially when you use the example of Living Room, which is just a comfortable, cozy place to go and to feel like you're learning stuff and getting other opinions all in one place, so good. If you can do that, more power to you. I think it's a great idea. Now, Patrick, you talked about consumer data, what else do you see trending when it comes to real estate transactions in Canada? What tools and technologies or innovations are we expecting to engage with in the future, going to do some crystal ball gazing here, my friend, to enhance the buying, selling, and listing experience?

Patrick: I love this question, Erin. Two things come to mind. First of all, I'm very bullish on virtual and augmented reality and the impact that these technologies will have on our industry. It's still the early days. We're just scratching the surface right now when it comes to leveraging this tech to remotely visit a property, get a feel for the neighborhood. Just imagine walking into a house and using your phone or your tablet, using that screen to start moving furniture around or knocking down a wall. I think these technologies will become a common way to interact with listings.

The second big trend. Information is going to continue to become more and more accessible. More transparent. Consumers always get what they want. They are undefeated in the history of business. You know what, that's okay because what consumers value most from a REALTOR® is not information. What they're looking for is a trusted advisor. Earlier on we talked about transparency initiatives. Something new that will be coming to REALTOR.ca in the next few weeks, something very exciting, will be the ability to see offers tracked in real-time on REALTOR.ca.

We announced a partnership with a company called Openn Offers last May, open with two Ns. Now they're in the final steps of their due diligence work. They've onboarded several brokerages who will participate in a pilot in Ontario and British Columbia. We're looking to address the perceived lack of transparency in the sales process that many consumers, governments, and REALTORS® have been vocal about. We want to do this in a way that will continue to keep REALTORS® at the heart of the transaction.

Erin: Okay. I'm catching my breath here as somebody who likes to look at real estate and properties around me and also find out what houses have done in areas that I've moved from, just because I like to look at those numbers and think, "Oh, what if I'd held onto it?" Tell me what this means. What does this mean to me as a consumer? Can you give us a little bit more insight into this? I think it's fascinating.

Andrew: Erin, I'm just going to jump in. It's Andrew. You know what, that you just self-described, there's actually a large cohort of people that are just like you.

Erin: Oh, yes.

Andrew: We know that not everybody who goes onto REALTOR.ca is actually imminently buying or selling a property. There's actually a whole cohort that go on there routinely just to see how they're doing, or to see where they stand, or just to make themselves feel confident about where they stand. Anyway, I just thought I'd interject.

Patrick: It's all good. I think we could do a whole podcast just on this whole offer process and how it's coming to REALTOR.ca. Maybe I can address one of the key concerns that comes up when we mention this. The question that we'll get is, "Well, why are you launching an eBay kind of auctioning service?" This is not at all the plan. This doesn't replace the current offer and acceptance method of buying and selling real estate. It just automates the existing process.

The beauty of the Openn platform and its integration with REALTOR.ca is that there's still going to need to be a REALTOR® on both sides of the transaction. The Openn platform provides buyers with the opportunity to see how much competition exists and where their offer stands in the negotiation process. On the flip side, for sellers, it builds confidence that they're getting the most that they can from current market conditions.

Erin: I'm super excited about it and cannot wait. As someone who lives in BC, as you do, Jill, as well, as a REALTOR®, how do you see these things, these opportunities, translating into your future day-to-day?

Jill: Excellent, the way you put that as opportunities. I think that it's crucial that we remember that we need and want to provide amazing data to our customers, to our clients. That starts with the REALTOR®, I know. I am a REALTOR®. I know how hard it is and how much work that goes into providing the information that goes into those listings that end up on REALTOR.ca. REALTOR.ca, in essence, it ends up becoming a connection, really, for us, between us and our clients.

Through the leads that come through REALTOR.ca, through us as REALTORS® providing the data and the data being in the site, it enables us to continue to provide that complete data to the customer or our clients as well. I have to say, it's crucial that we keep providing the best tools to support our clients in their journey, which is the long journey it can be through both the buying and the selling of real estate. It's amazing that, of course, REALTOR.ca is owned by REALTORS®.

Erin: Let's end with a little out-of-the-box thinking now, shall we? It's 2033, 10 years from now, they're still talking about the slap at the Oscars, and you're on REALTOR.ca. Tell us, what do you see? All right. We're going to start out with Andrew.

Andrew: First of all, I'm still trying to get over 2033 as a concept, Erin. Those numbers don't even make sense in my brain right now, but I can think about it in terms of decades. Like we've said, the past 10 years felt like there was the great portal wars. I think that the next 10 years are going to look very different. I think that the position that we've gained is phenomenal, but we have to be mindful of what we'll have to do in order to maintain the equivalent position moving forward because the lines perhaps are being drawn differently now.

For example, there's a lot more verticalization happening, meaning that banks, for example, are building or acquiring brokerages. The solution stacks are deepening as everybody is trying to be that one-stop shop so the real estate consumer never has to leave their site. It's like whereas, in the past decade and beyond, real estate portals were a standalone market, it feels like that's less likely to be now. Our plan here, though, is to create a strong and really well-supported and nimble technology company that can be around and help REALTORS® prepare for that next chapter of the journey.

Erin: What about you, Jill? What are your thoughts on this heading to 2033? Keep in mind, we're already almost at the quarter point of this century, which is enough to blow your mind, but let's look at the third point at 2033. What do you think, Jill?

Jill: I guess time flies. 2033 sounds so far away from now, but when I think about 10 years ago, I used to have to go drive to rent a movie. Ultimately, I think that what we want to make sure is that REALTOR.ca stays the leading platform that it is today and making sure that REALTORS® can continue to do what they love and continue to do their job in serving customers, helping them buy and sell real estate. Ultimately, that means keeping REALTORS® top of mind with all Canadians. Having said that, that makes REALTOR.ca our best tool to continue to defend that position.

Erin: Absolutely. Patrick, your thoughts on where we're headed for the future?

Patrick: I agree with everything that Andrew and Jill said, but I'll go in a bit of a different direction. I think 2033, when you're on REALTOR.ca, first of all, it'll be a much more personal one-to-one experience. Whether you're a young urbanite like my son who's in Montreal right now looking for his first apartment, or you're somebody looking to downsize, regardless of who you are, you will feel like REALTOR.ca understands your needs. The other thing is, it's going to be a much more immersive experience. Earlier I talked a bit about augmented and virtual reality and that kind of technology.

The other thing, I'm pretty confident when I'm on the site or on the apps, anywhere on the platform, in 10 years from now, I'm still going to see a lot of REALTORS®. Technology tools are going to come and go, and it's hard to forecast exactly what kind of bells and whistles will be on the platform, but I'm pretty confident that there'll still be REALTORS® because Canadians will continue to need that trusted advisor. Regardless of how technology is going to come support that journey, there's still going to be a role for a trusted advisor.

Erin: Thank you all for your time today and continued success as you look to the future, holding on to your integrity and what you have already built and just making sure that everybody gets the best experience from REALTOR.ca. We're grateful for the illumination today. Thank you so much, Jill, Patrick, Andrew.

Andrew: Thanks, Erin.

Patrick: Thanks, Erin.

Jill: It was great. Thanks.

Erin: Our guests today have been CREA Chair, Jill Oudil; VP of REALTOR.ca, Patrick Pichette; and Andrew Jackson, CREA's head of business development. I'm Erin Davis. It has been my pleasure once again to host REAL TIME, a production of Alphabet® Creative with Rob Whitehead and Real Family on the tech side. Thanks for listening and we'll talk to you again soon on REAL TIME.

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Erin Davis: Welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS®and all of us who are fascinated with the buying, the selling, the great storytelling. My name is Erin Davis, and you're going to love this episode number 35 because it's about influencing social media; getting your name, your brand, your story out there, and you don't have to be a Spielberg or even a Kardashian to do it. It's a hyper-digital world. Many brands are finding success tapping into and nurturing niche communities.

On this episode, Shannae Ingleton Smith joins REAL TIME to help you as a REALTOR® build a niche of your own. Shannae is President and CEO of Kensington Grey. It's a boutique influencer agency rooted in diversity, and she's an expert in content creation and brand storytelling. In addition to building a niche, she also has valuable advice for you on what platform fits you personally, on how to strike an effective balance between telling your own story and having others, like influencers, champion your brand for you and even what you might expect it to cost you. Let's dig in.

Shannae, thanks so much for joining us today on REAL TIME. For those who may not be familiar with you yet, and it seems from your numbers like not too many are unfamiliar with you, let's start with a quick backgrounder on you, could we?

Shannae Ingleton Smith: Yes, of course. I started off with a background in big media, working for one of Canada's largest media conglomerates. Over time, things started to move from traditional media, so like television, radio, print, et cetera, to digital and then to social media. As my career evolved, so did my passion for social media. In Canada, we're very fortunate enough to have a year off for mat leave.

While I was on mat leave with my daughter Kensington, the concept of the agency, Kensington Grey, was formed. Shortly, about a year and a half after returning to work after having her, I left my job and started Kensington Grey Agency, which is an influencer management agency that focuses on diverse creators, particularly Black creators. It's my life's passion and something I'm really proud of.

Erin: Wonderful, and to have it named after your daughter too, Kensington. That's so beautiful.

Shannae: Thank you.

Erin: What is your business mission then, Shannae?

Shannae: Our business mission is to empower Black people, to empower Black voices, and to ensure that Black creators in particular are at the top of their game from an education perspective, and to ensure that they're not leaving any money on the table, and they're being paid fairly and equitably. With my background in media, as well as my passion for this space, I'd sort of married the best of both worlds.

Erin: It sounds like it. I was looking at some pictures on your Instagram feed, and there was a mug there with quite a striking message. Do you remember what it said?

Shannae: Yes, pay me fairly and don't just use me for diversity clout.

Erin: Diversity clout. I thought that that was just perfect. How do you think your message is getting across? Do you feel like you're really breaking through with your push for diversity?

Shannae: Yes, absolutely. Diversity is definitely not a trend for me or for anyone at our company. We've believed in diversity and have been touting diversity, whether it be literally or figuratively, I feel like, my whole life. With everything that happened in 2020 with George Floyd, I think that a lot of companies caught up with where we were already at. As a result of that, I think that real change is happening.

I think that that time, everyone was at home during the pandemic, and we witnessed the tragedy with George Floyd, and everyone- it was just an opportunity for everyone to just really reflect and to see where they could be doing better. A lot of both organizations, companies, peoples, communities, really stepped up to the plate and have made long-term transformative change, and I think it's a beautiful thing to see.

Erin: Well, what types of clients do you work with?

Shannae: We work with all kinds of clients. Our creators are in every category you could think of, from fashion, to beauty, to lifestyle, to parenting. Think of every brand or any brand that might want to work with creators in those space, and we've probably worked with them. Whether it's Walmart, whether it's Home Depot, whether it is Louis Vuitton, or it is Valentino, or The Gap, Old Navy, we've literally worked with every brand you could ever imagine.

Erin: That's incredible. How has the influencer world evolved, Shannae, from celebrity endorsements on TV, late-night TV talk show hosts selling ALPO dog food because that was part of their shtick, right? In some ways, they were the original influencers. It's been a long road to where we are now, hasn't it?

Shannae: I definitely think it's been a long road. I think that influencers have always existed, but I think that it's a little bit more literal in today's terms. I feel like back then, celebrity endorsements were- it was very clear that you were being sold to, or that the celebrity was doing whatever they were doing for the money, whether it's selling dog food or whatever. Whereas I think with influencer marketing, people have the ability to talk about things that they would already be talking about but being paid for that.

That's where the importance of authenticity and only endorsing things that you would genuinely use in your real life and that you have used before and that you would genuinely recommend. Audiences have become very smart, and they can sniff out when it's not an authentic organic partnership. I think that the new element of authenticity and realness and lifting the fourth wall or lifting the veil is what- I guess is what differentiates creators of today versus the celebrities of yesterday.

Erin: Yes, I think that you bring up a good point there, talking about whether that talk show host actually used ALPO at home with his own dog or dogs. I think now it's expected or sniffed out if somebody doesn't use the product that they're endorsing. It's expected. If somebody is-- For example, recently the whole brouhaha about the influencer who was plugging a mascara, and it turned out that she had fake lashes on. That can really take you down in a hurry. That authenticity, not only is it sensed, but it's expected.

Shannae: Yes, I agree. Well, it's all about – Building a community is all about building trust. In order for you to have a successful and an engaged and growing community, they need to be dialed in and they need to really trust you. Once you lose or you've broken that trust with them, they tune out and they disengage.

Erin: Yes, it takes a lifetime to build a reputation and a moment to lose it. You got to be so careful, right? You, Shannae, your career, and in a nutshell, you summed it up very quickly, and a very broad expanse of experience in your case. Tell us the one thing you would like to disabuse people of when it comes to their ideas of what an influencer is. If you meet somebody at a cocktail party and say, "Well, I'm an influencer," what is the thing that you're afraid they're thinking that just isn't true?

Shannae: We're not just self-absorbed people that are walking around taking selfies. Some of us are. Some of us actually are, but there are a lot of people who just take the power of their platform very seriously and the influence that they have very seriously, and they really only use it to bring and add value to the lives of the people that follow them. We're a new form of media. We're the new magazine, we're the new talk show, we're the new radio station where people tune in to find out about the things that they love, to sometimes find out about current events, just to find out what's happening in the world. We're a new source of, yes, media.

Erin: Yes. A new town square, as it were.

Shannae: Exactly.

Erin: 1.8 billion. Now that is one crowded town square, and who wouldn't want that many followers? Let me tell you. That's how many page views there were at REALTOR.ca last year, and that's 121 million visitors and a half-billion visits. No wonder REALTOR.ca is the number one real estate platform in Canada. Now, back to Shannae Ingleton Smith of Kensington Grey, talking the birth, growth and power of the digital.

Now that people know what an influencer is and is not, when did businesses start seeing the value of influencers as a part of a buyable social media strategy, that it wasn't just kids doing amazing dance numbers in their basements? When did that evolution begin?

Shannae: The power of digital, I think, has been happening since the early 2000s, but I think that it really, really blew up around 2013- the early 2010s, like 2012, 2013, 2014, where companies that couldn't afford to spend a million dollars on a spot in the Super Bowl, or to buy a page in the Toronto Starfor $75,000, they're like, where else could I put my money? They're putting it into social media, and they were seeing real results, seeing better results, in fact, than using some traditional media sources like newspaper or magazine or sometimes radio. I think that once they started seeing the results, they just kept on coming back, and they haven't looked back since.

Erin: Why should those who are on the fence make the leap? Why, do you think? What would you say to those who are still saying, "I don't know. I'm not sure because I've always done it this way"?

Shannae: I think you have to go where people's attentions are. If you want to get people's attention, look at where their attentions are right now. It's in their phone, it's on their laptop, it's on their screens. People are using traditional media as a source of their news information and purchasing decisions less and less. Traditional media is losing relevance by the day, and social media is honestly gaining relevance by the day as the source for that. You have to just get with the program or you'll be at a significant disadvantage as a business owner, I would say.

Erin: Yes, and influencers now have this down to a science. Because we all know that social media is a powerful tool for finding and building a community of brand loyalists. Can you explain the pros and cons of targeting a niche audience as opposed to casting that wide net, taking out that full-page ad, or trying to get on the evening news in the middle of a newscast and having your ad in there or something, when niching down, if you will, is valuable?

Shannae: Niching down is valuable because you're speaking to your people. You're speaking to people who are almost a complete and perfect alignment with the service or the products that you have to offer. There's very little wastage, if you will, when the people that are seeing your content, especially with platforms on social media like TikTok, where the algorithm is so, so smart that it connects you with people who have a specific interest with the exact things that you're talking about. You find your people, you find your community, you find your target audience a lot faster, and you're able to get to your goal that you're trying to achieve a lot faster as well.

Erin: Okay, you brought up TikTok. Now, I want to talk to you as would-be-influencer me to influencer you. In total, I've got about 100,000 followers on various platforms, but I'll tell you that TikTok is the one that gets the least of my attention. You've just opened my eyes to something that I didn't know, Shannae, and maybe for people listening today too. That even if you only have followers numbering in the hundreds on TikTok as opposed to, say, I have 30,000 or whatever on Twitter, that if I put out stuff, TikTok is going to get it to the right people, instead of trying to build up all of those followers right out of the gate. Am I hearing this right?

Shannae: You are hearing me correctly. TikTok is an app that is built for discoverability. Most of the people that see your content are actually people that don't follow you. It's people that find you on the For You page because you're talking about things that interest them, or that they've searched before or that they've talked about before. The algorithm is extremely sophisticated, more sophisticated than any other social media platform that I've ever seen before. That's why it's so easy for people to just literally sign up for the app and within, honestly, a few months, gain tens of thousands, sometimes even hundreds of thousands of followers because the algorithm finds your people so fast and with almost expert precision.

Erin: Wow, that's amazing. Thank you for that. Hopefully, a light went on for a lot of people here. Again, what I've learned from you just partway through our talk today, Shannae, is that you don't have to be dressing up and doing musical numbers or doing a tutorial on makeup or anything like that. It doesn't have to be that. Again, although TikTok has a reputation for being flashy and fun and really sticky, in terms of content, it's again down to authenticity. Sure, there's the flash and the fun, but authenticity works on that platform too. Is that what I'm hearing?

Shannae: Yes, there's definitely something for everyone. It's not like the previous platforms where you have to- like it's a struggle to find followers and to be discovered. The velocity in which you can grow on TikTok is way faster than any other platform right now. It's because you just show up as yourself, then people that are interested in you and are like-minded will find you because most of the people that see your content are people that do not follow you. That's what makes the app so exciting.

Erin: When we return, how you can find your niche, and then dive right in and really touch your followers where they live, sometimes literally. Not all influencers are selling, just like you should be doing, about the good works you take part in in your community. Share your stories and use the #REALTORSCare, and let everybody know about your good works, great causes and you. Now, back to REAL TIME and Shannae Ingleton Smith.

Okay, so how do you think that a REALTOR®can find their niche and use that knowledge to grow their business, Shannae?

Shannae: Depending on whatever it is that you specialize in, whether it's the luxury space or the first-time homebuyer space, think about what that client would want to know more about and just talk about those things. By doing that, you're providing value for that specific audience. If it's like the first-time homebuyer space, maybe you can talk about some of the tax benefits that they can take advantage of when buying a first-time home, or different hacks on how to save for a down payment. Things of that nature. You can talk about interest rates.

If you are focused in the luxury space, then maybe you can talk about more luxury or first-world problems, if you will. You can talk about homes with a wow factor. You can talk about the things that people that are in that spending bracket would be interested in. Then as a result of that, you'll attract people that could potentially be clients of yours down the line.

Erin: Really, amplify your strengths and share the messages that you have learned and all of your wisdom. Do people ever worry about other people taking their ideas, though, Shannae? That must happen all the time on social media, right? If you've got, say, a REALTOR® who's got a TikTok channel that's all about those luxury houses, the one that's got the ice cream maker in the bedroom and that sort of thing, and yes, that exists, I'd be afraid if I did something like that on my account, somebody might borrow that idea. What do you think of that?

Shannae: I think that there are very few things that are truly, truly original anymore, and I think that there's a lot of people repurposing and doing things in their own way. However, one thing about TikTok is they're big on accountability. They're big on giving credit. If you are outright copying word for word, bar for bar what another REALTOR® is doing or what another person on TikTok is doing, the TikTok community will find you and they will call you out.

Like you said earlier, it takes a lifetime to build a reputation but a moment to lose it. If you're doing things that call your integrity into question, like copying, or things that are unethical like not giving credit where credit is due, or not giving inspiration credit if you were inspired by somebody else's content, then you'll find yourself in hot water, and then you will lose that trust from your audience that is highly coveted and so hard to build. If you're inspired by another REALTOR®, if you're inspired by somebody else's content, just say that. You can say, "Hey, I saw this on so-and-so's page the other day. I loved what he was doing. This is my take on the same issue."

Yes, definitely don't try and pass off somebody else's work or somebody else's ideas as your own. Give credit where credit is due. Then when you are inspired by somebody else, try to find a way to make it into your own. There's really only one you, and that's always going to be your superpower and lean into that as much as you can.

Erin: That's fantastic. I think that maybe you just allayed a whole bunch of fears that people have had about, "Well, there's so many people out there on these platforms, what do I have new to offer?" You have you to offer, and that is a really important message. Thank you for that. Now, Shannae, do you have any specific platforms that you prefer for different messaging? I'll go back to myself as an example here. I'll put some of my content on Facebook and Instagram, others on TikTok and Twitter. How do you decide where best to reach your target audience, or is it more of a touch-them-all kind of approach?

Shannae: Yes, so I would say that Instagram is like the aesthetic, perfect, pristine app where that's where you can share the photos, that's where you can show the final product. Then TikTok is more the unfinished, how I got there. Maybe some of the behind the scenes, or some of just a few snippets and tidbits from your day can be on TikTok because it's short form, it's video, it's casual, it's a little bit more organic.

Then YouTube, for example, would be the deep dive like, "This is how I did it, this is every step that I took, this is the blueprint," where you can really take a deep dive and just really delve into your content. Then I would say things like Twitter and Facebook, you can use those to drive to those other three major platforms, and to just bring awareness and to circle your followers back to those other platforms so that they can check that other content out.

Erin: Nobody knows your brand better than yourself, and it comes back to the authenticity and what we've discussed about the wisdom and experience and the schools of hard knocks that everybody has been through. This is especially true for entrepreneurs like REALTORS®. Shannae, how do you balance creating your own content versus outsourcing it to digital content creators? A lot of people might be intimidated not knowing even how to use iMovie in their iPhone, or whatever other programs that are so easily downloaded and worked with now. How do you balance that, creating versus outsourcing?

Shannae: Yes. I would say, well, first of all, do the things that bring you joy. If recording and talking to the camera, if you love that and that brings you joy, definitely do that. If you're not a fan of editing, then find an editor. Find somebody who can edit and chop and mix your stuff together in a way that's compelling and entertaining. If you prefer to be behind the camera, maybe some other members of your team prefer to be in front of the camera, and you can be the person that films and maybe edits behind the scene.

Another thing that I think that has really helped me is I try to document as much as possible as opposed to creating. I try to be the content and not orchestrate the content, if you will. If I'm already going on about my day, if I'm already doing things, I can just put an iPhone on a tripod and record that. These are things that I would be doing anyway. As opposed to just creating and the kind of orchestrating something that isn't real, it's just better to document it or have somebody from your team document you doing something that you would already be doing anyway.

Whether that's a house tour, have somebody record you doing a house tour. Maybe it's you sourcing a new neighborhood or sourcing a new client or whatever, you can get those people to capture that behind the scenes, and then you can pull anecdotes from that or pull little clips from that and then just post it up on your social media. Try to document instead of creating as much as possible.

Erin: Document instead of creating. Again, that's more organic, it's more natural, it's more authentic, and there's always editing. We all think we have to be perfect, and sometimes it's the outtakes that are the most memorable and the most real anyway.

Shannae: That's true.

Erin: It's sometimes hard to share them, but they're memorable.

Shannae: Yes, and sometimes if it's scary or hard to share, some of the times that's your best content and your best performing content. Don't be afraid to take risks every once in a while. Everything doesn't have to be always perfect.

Erin: That's true. I will add what my broadcasting guru told me, and she still talks to broadcasters and podcasters around the world, "Be personal, but don't be private." There is a fine line, and you want to go personal, but you always have to respect that privacy that might make people go, "I really didn't need to know that."

Something that you've said too that really connected in your message to us, Shannae, is that the comments, what people have to say about what you're putting out there, your content, that can sometimes tell you when you're going in the right direction or maybe where you should take a bit of a U-turn or a detour.

Shannae: Yes. What we always like to say to our creators is the tea is always in the comments. That will send you in the right direction, that will tell you what you should do next. That will give you ideas for your next video or for your next post because your community will tell you what they want, and pay attention to your comments. It's almost like crowdsourcing for free or doing market research for free.

Erin: Yes, absolutely. Coming up, Shannae Ingleton Smith of Kensington Grey talks about finding the right influencers to help you reach your target audience. #helpfuladvice. Whether you're looking to open up shop in Sherbrooke, or peruse palaces in London, Ontario, of course, you can find just what your heart desires on REALTOR.ca. Oh, and while you're there, open the tab and visit Living Room Blog to read stuff like the most googled questions about real estate answered by REALTORS®, plus idea-sparking topics like optimizing space in your galley kitchen. Okay, you could be there for a while and that's all right. Kick back in the Living Room Blog section of REALTOR.ca. Now, we're back to Shannae Ingleton Smith on REAL TIME.

Okay, so say I want to find somebody to champion my brand, and if I didn't think it was me, how do you go about finding, Shannae, the right personalities to champion your brand? Where would you begin?

Shannae: I would say that you can start by just going on Instagram or TikTok and going through hashtags that are relevant to your niche, and look for the people that are showing up at the top of those hashtags or reoccurring often in those hashtags and then reach out to them. You can also utilize an agency like a Kensington Grey who represents influencers. You can ask them, "Hey, do you have somebody that likes to talk about this, or do you have somebody that is an expert in that?" Then they'll find somebody or source that person for you, but you can definitely search.

Especially the searchability on platforms like Facebook, on even LinkedIn, on TikTok are superior. The searchability is really sophisticated there. Then on Instagram, it's a little bit harder, but you can also use hashtags on Instagram to just find people who are experts, or who continue to pop up or end up being at the top of those hashtags.

Erin: How does one usually expect to pay an influencer who is not themselves-- If you want to hire somebody, do you pay by clicks and views, or is there a set rate, or generally speaking, how does it work?

Shannae: Typically, influencers don't do a lot for free anymore. In the very beginning, people were just happy to be asked to endorse things, and a lot of people would just do things on barter. Now, for the most part, influencers do expect to be paid. It's different depending on who the influencer is, it's different depending on what your budget is and the relationship you have with them, but it varies.

The general rule, I would say, is that for a post, influencers are typically paid between 3% and 5% of their following per post. Sometimes it's more if it's super niche, or if they have extremely high engagement. Then sometimes it's super less if it's not as niche, or if the client's budget just doesn't permit.

Erin: Interesting. Now, what else should you consider when you're planning, researching and executing an influencer strategy? Because I think a lot of people listening right now are probably getting kind of excited about this whole idea and going, "Yes, okay, I can try this. I can do this. I don't have to orchestrate. I can just create. I can be myself and see what comes of it." What else should you consider when you're doing this?

Shannae: Well, I think that you want to figure out, what is the goal here? Is the goal to sell houses? Is your goal to bring in potential home buyers or home sellers? Is the goal to just raise awareness or build your profile? When you're sourcing creators, you want to find people that have a true and genuine connection to the content and the topic that you are talking about.

You want to source creators that have a true passion for and understanding of real estate or of the neighborhood that you're selling a home in or that you are focused on so that it's authentic and it doesn't feel forced. You want people that feel natural in front of the camera, where when you watch one of their videos, you feel like you're just talking to a friend on FaceTime. You want somebody who's just going to make you feel comfortable, somebody who you feel like you're just out having a drink with. I think that those are the best ways of connecting, and yes, just making sure that it's just authentic.

Erin: Yes, we are hearing that word a lot today and for very good reason. We hear the word authenticity all the time really when it comes to brand storytelling. How do we ensure then that paid partnerships remain authentic?

Shannae: I think that the best way to ensure that paid partnerships remain authentic is to only take partnerships for brands that you would be talking about organically. If you already love Home Depot and you go to Home Depot all the time, or you love Canadian Tire and you use Canadian Tire for everything and you tell your friends about it, then it's a natural fit if you work with that brand in a paid partnership. It's just almost like you're talking organically about it, but in this case, you're being paid, but it seems true, it seems authentic.

Don't talk about things that feel forced or that you don't really use because then you lose credibility. People are really smart. Don't underestimate the intelligence of your community and the audience that's watching. They know when they're being bamboozled, and they tune out and unfollow when those things happen. It's never worth it just trying to make a quick buck by touting a brand or service or product that you don't really care about or use in real life.

Erin: This wouldn't apply to REALTORS®, especially the ones doing their own social media, but I'm sure that there are personalities who are known for plugging like 40 items. It's like, "Oh, okay, there she is again, and this time it's Jell-O, and yesterday it was something else." Yes, we can all have diverse interests and things in our lives, and we may love Jell-O, and Pepsi, and Canadian Tire, but sometimes I think that you can risk being overexposed. I'm sure you tell your clients that too, right?

Shannae: Yes, that's correct.

Erin: Yes. I mean, it's a good problem to have.

Shannae: I guess it can be, but it depends on whether you want longevity. I think that saying no to things, that there's power in saying no, and just really staying truthful and aligned with your ethos, and then just moving forward with the things that align with your brand best. You don't have to take everything.

Erin: That's right. If REALTORS® are interested in integrating influencers into their marketing strategies, tell us where you think is a good place to start, Shannae?

Shannae: I truly believe that you're your best influencer, so don't be afraid to show up on camera, or even if you're not showing up face forward on the camera, don't be afraid to start posting things and posting maybe some of the properties that you are selling, or sharing some of your expertise, whether it just be by audio or with photos, and just talking and sharing your knowledge so that you can connect with the right people.

If you are looking to connect with influencers, I would definitely say you can definitely go through an agency, but you can also just connect with people by social media and start following them. Send them a message if you think that there might be an opportunity for you to work together. Reach out to them and send an email. In most cases, people's contact information are available in their bio.

I think that you miss all the shots that you don't take, so just try check it out. In real estate, people that are in real estate are great at sales. It's almost like door knocking but virtual. Don't be afraid to knock on a few doors and ask and put out some feelers to figure out how you might be able to work with somebody, or whether they might want to work for you in a social media capacity.

Erin: Okay, let's look closer to home then, so to speak. What about a client? Do you think a client would be a good storyteller?

Shannae: Yes, I think a client would be a great storyteller if they have a testimonial, or if they have a positive experience that they want to tell. There's nothing better than word-of-mouth marketing. If you have a client that's willing to share a positive experience, that is worth its weight in gold for sure. Yes, absolutely.

Erin: Most people don't feel truly comfortable performing to a camera or to even if it's just a phone or whatever too, so you've got to be judicious, don't you? Because you want it to be authentic, and not like somebody is sitting there like a deer in headlights answering your questions. I think that something we could come back to, and if you haven't emphasized it already, then maybe it's worth mentioning too, again, you can always edit and maybe be a little judicious with your editing. Should you show your content to somebody else before you put it out there into the world, Shannae?

Shannae: Yes. I feel like most content should get a run-through in the group chat first. A lot of my content gets sent to my girlfriends' group chat before I post it, just to make sure that there isn't anything that I'm saying that is incorrect or inaccurate, or that there isn't a stain on my shirt or whatever. The same thing applies with social media. Just run it by somebody that you trust just to make sure that you're putting something out there that makes sense.

Just tying back to your question previously about, do you use a client? If you have a client that doesn't feel comfortable speaking on camera or going online and sharing a testimonial, sometimes your work just speaks for itself. Maybe it's like a two-part series where you're talking about this home that you've listed, and then part two or the follow-up is that you're sharing that the home has been sold.

People don't always have to know the story or the person behind who owns the home or who the client is because people obviously value their privacy, but there are so many other ways that you can be your own cheerleader and share your successes and share how well you're doing as a real estate agent in a way that will attract new clients, more clients and more business to you and your platforms.

Erin: Well, it's certainly been eye-opening and so encouraging and just, oh, the sparks of inspiration from talking with you today, Shannae, it has been a real pleasure. Thank you, and continued success to you and Kensington Grey. Thanks again for taking the time to talk.

Shannae: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Erin: And we appreciate you listening to the podcast for Canadian REALTORS®, discussing issues that affect you and can help enrich not just your business, but your life. Make sure to subscribe and follow so you don't miss one episode of REAL TIME. If you've got time, why not go for a deep dive? From designing women, to ad gurus, thinking green, and shedding light on human rights, the resources you need are right here on REAL TIME. This show is produced by Alphabet® Creative. Rob Whitehead of Real Family Productions is on the tech side, and I'm your host, Erin Davis. We can't wait to talk to you next time on REAL TIME.

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Erin Davis: Hi there, and welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for Canadian REALTORS®. I'm your host, Erin Davis. As we move into 2023, we are joined today by Shaun Cathcart, Director and Senior Economist, Housing Data and Market analysis at the Canadian Real Estate Association. On this episode 34, Shaun helps REALTORS® start the new year with a better understanding of Canada's housing market, how it's changed over the last few years, what's driving these changes, and most importantly, what it could look like for you, for me, for all of us in 2023. Well, Happy New Year, Shaun. Happy Lunar New Year, too. Thanks for joining us for our first episode of 2023. It's so good to have you back on with us again.

Shaun Cathcart: Happy new year, Erin. It's good to be back.

Erin: Thank you. Let me think, Lunar New Year, Year of the Rabbit. Is this going to be a year of the rabbit, do you think, for Canada and the real estate market?

Shaun: Not for the housing market. Maybe more like a tortoise.

Erin: All right, with that in mind, we will move forward slowly, cautiously, and let's start, Shaun, with a basic understanding of what you do as CREA's senior economist. Would you give us not your elevator pitch per se, but just who you are, what you do, and why it's so important and wonderful that we have you with us here today?

Shaun: Well, I've been working at CREA for a long time, working with the data. Didn't start off as a senior person, but this many years later, here I am in charge of our housing data and market analysis program. We have a small team of data wizards and economists who do all of the data processing and a lot of automation, as you can imagine. We've got a hundred different regions, so we can't be writing reports and making charts and stuff for all of them. We need to automate a lot of that using computer programming, forecasting and presentations, and all that sort of thing. Obviously, out there in the media having to be the spokesperson for a lot of what we're saying. I guess that's the short version.

Erin: Well, you have been everywhere of late because everybody wants to know what's coming in the year ahead, and because CREA is the authority. Do some bragging here. We're totally going to allow this, because what kind of housing market intelligence, the kind that you provide, is not just typical, which you can also explain for us, if you wouldn't mind, but also the best out there that there is. I've laid it out there. Shaun, if you could fill in the blanks for us. What is it that you do that makes the information that you provide so vital?

Shaun: Well, you don't have to take my word for it. I think the attention that it gets out there in the world says it all. You can get housing data from StatCan, it's sort of census data. It's very much data around, like the housing stock and that sort of thing. You can get housing data from CMHC, which is a lot of new builds, rental market starts, and completions and that, but the bulk of what goes on in the housing market is in the resale market. That comes from MLS systems of real estate boards and associations across Canada.

That is the data that we access for 100 regions across Canada, aggregate it to the provincial and territorial level, and then to the Canada level to create this data set that goes back more than four decades. With our partners in organized real estate that are generous to give this to us every month, it's their data, and we hope that we can turn it around and make REALTORS® the authority on what's going on.

The reason our data set is so popular, mostly because it contains the price piece, which I think is what most people are interested in, because a lot of people own homes. They want to know what the value of their biggest asset is doing but our data also has a lot of demand and supply information in it that tells you why prices are doing what they're doing and what they're likely to do next.

I think that it is the preeminent housing data set in Canada. Like I say, we operate a little bit of a mini StatCan. We even work with StatCan to seasonally adjust it. We've got a lot of partners there and this data set goes out far and wide. The bank of Canada and Finance and all the big banks and financial institutions and governments and everyone wants to see what's going on in this data set. It's our job to put it together and make sure that everything is correct and well vetted and goes out on time every month.

Erin: Wow, and with huge thanks to the big boards who make this all possible too. It's not just the big picture that you talk about too, but that you can boil it down from national to your province to your region, even down to your house. That's got to be super useful for REALTORS®, that granular information that you are providing for them.

Shaun: One of the neat pieces of data that we do have is the MLS home price index which is the best measure of home prices in the world. No one else in the world has anything like this thing, it is just the absolute best. I remember back in school 20-plus years ago, professors talking about how in theory, this would be a really neat thing you could do with this kind of mathematics and this kind of information, the granularity you get from an MLS system.

Big data before big data was even a term, and this is something that over the last 10 years with our partners in organized Real Estate across the country and Altus Group, particularly the group based out of Quebec City who were the pros of this stuff. We have put together this, it's basically a national index at this point, but I can give the example of my own self. I can drill down from Canada to Ontario, to Ottawa, to West Ottawa, to Bellaire Park, which is my little neighborhood.

If I went out for a jog, I could run around it in five minutes. That's how granular it is to my house. Type two-story little detached, I can see all of the attributes of my house, which matches up exactly with what the house is like mine are in this neighborhood, and I can see the entire price history of what that's been doing, including right up until yesterday basically. It's a really, really neat product that REALTORS® can use to help clients price their homes and understand what's going on at that hyper-local level.

Erin: That's incredible. That is incredible. You have seen the future evolve, although you haven't just seen it, you've been a part of it as well. I have to go back to the best in the world. Why Canada? Why us, and what kind of challenges did you have, Shaun, aggregating all of this information for such a huge country, not big in population when you compare us to our neighbors to the south, but why are we the best in the world? I hate to keep focusing on making you brag, but it really is something to be proud of.

Shaun: Well, there's a lot that organized real estate in Canada does have to be proud of. We have a really great federation where we're not a disparate regions, all of these boards are local, but they're all part of the same system, I suppose, the same federation, and so that enables us to capture everything. We're not missing coverage really anywhere, and so that's one of the advantages. It is a challenge to maintain all of those relationships and make sure that we're gathering data from all of those different places in a timely way, because we always talk about the last horse across the line oftentimes.

In January, you get somebody from a smaller board that takes an extra week of vacation after the holiday season and there's no one to send us the data, so that can be challenging. Obviously, the HPI was a challenge because it's a really big complicated project that you've got to bring a lot of people to the table and get agreement on how it's going to play out. That's where we are, and that's why we have the best housing market intelligence of any country in the world, I think.

Erin: Coming up, how that hindsight, that 2020 vision helps us pull into focus what's on the way. As 2022 wrapped up, CREA donated a check for $5,000 to the Canadian Hospital Aid Society of Calgary in honor of local REALTOR® and superstar Lorna Hamm. She's the recipient of the Canadian REALTORS Care® Award presented by REALTOR.ca for her remarkable commitment to her community of Calgary. Learn more about Lorna's amazing contribution to her city and the people who needed her help by going to REALTORSCare.ca.

If you are doing good and we know you are, please put it out there on social media using #REALTORSCare, and thank you. Now, back to CREA Senior economist, Shaun Cathcart on REAL TIME. There's a saying that you should look through the windshield because it's much bigger and you want to see where you're going and not in the rearview mirror, and there's a reason that it's smaller. I think we need to look in the rearview mirror when it comes to what's happening in the housing market. Let's do that, Shaun, and paint a picture for us, if you would, of Canada's housing market pre pandemic. Let's go back there, shall we, before we look through the windshield?

Shaun: That's a great question. It's one that almost never gets asked of me, even though it's one that I always want to answer because there's this inclination for people to say like, "Man, COVID made the housing market go crazy," but I would trace a lot of what's happened in recent years, a lot of the seller's market, the multiple offers, the big price gains. I would trace that all the way back to a starting point around 2015 when the price of oil crashed when the Canadian dollar went from par with the US dollar to 70 cents, when the oil patch really cooled down, but everywhere else in the country, particularly manufacturing places that export to the United States started to heat up and most places took a number of years to heat up slowly but some places did flare up.

A lot of that migration that was all going to Alberta for a while sought out other opportunities in the immediate wake of the oil price crash. A lot of it went to the lower mainland which was the first part of the country to really flare up and look like what we've seen during COVID. We saw that in Vancouver in 2015/'16 just as the psychology was peaking and there was no inventory and multiple offers on everything, double-digit price growth.

Governments came in and were like, "We're going to put us off to this. We're going to make things affordable." The policies that they had brought in wouldn't really be all that impactful on the market, but it was the impact on the psychology that sent everyone to the sidelines and said, "Whoa, what are they going to do here?"

That was the first example of that that we saw. It happened a year later in the Greater Golden Horseshoe, General region around Toronto. These days, it seems like it stretches all the way from London to Kingston where the same thing happened. We went from months of inventory to weeks of inventory. Everything was being bought up, 30% price growth. The Ontario government came in and said, "Fair Housing Plan. We're going to make housing affordable."

Nothing in that was really that impactful from a policy standpoint but the psychology changed in an instant. That was the second example of that that we saw. Then obviously during COVID, we saw the entire country join in and do the exact same thing. When it became apparent that the Bank of Canada was going to be raising rates quite dramatically in 2022, the psychology snapped just the same as we'd seen it before in Toronto and Vancouver, and then here we are today.

Erin: Leading up to 2020, it was truly a seller's market. You talk about markets evolving from high to low inventory over five to six years, and then COVID. We're going to talk about COVID. You say that people say that, "Oh, COVID did this, COVID did that." You saw things happening. What is the biggest thing about COVID that stands out as one of the most significant changes you've seen over the last few years, from sales activity to prices and such? We've all got myriad ways in which COVID changed our lives, but what do you see in the big picture there, Sean?

Shaun: Sure. As much as a lot of that was developing beforehand, it was made that much more extreme by COVID. People say COVID acted as a turbocharger on so many trends. This is another one where we may have had price growth that was running at 15% per year in a non-COVID world, which would've still been making headlines. In the COVID world it was 30%, right?

Erin: Yes.

Shaun: The most striking thing to me looking at resale market data, is in the not new home construction, but the existing market was how many sales were happening. Because in a normal good year in recent years, we would have half a million sales happen. During COVID, we're popping up 700,000 at one point on an annualized basis. I think in March of 2021 it was 800 and something thousand. How is it that there are so many sales happening?

Well, the unique feature about COVID was when you didn't have to commute to the office anymore and your kids weren't commuting to school, you didn't really have to live within that small circle of possible housing options that you thought was your forever home. You could really cast a much wider net and inter-provincial migration data from StatCam shows it, in Truck Provincial data within provinces, people moving from one city to another.

People moved around during COVID more than they ever had before and that's the most unique feature. That's why we're very unlikely to ever see a sales number, at least not for a very long time, that's going to match that 2021 numbers, such a unique feature. It wasn't just regular housing demand, it was churn, it was the ability for people to pull up stakes and move where they thought they would be in the same place for decades, and then all of a sudden, they found themselves going from Toronto to North Bay or Winnipeg to Halifax or whatever it is.

That was the most unique thing about COVID. I think that's probably mostly done at this point unless people get called back to the office and they end up moving back in the other direction. We'll see.

Erin: Well, that's what I wanted to ask you. Have you seen the inverse of this yet? Have you seen any kind of a bounce back where people are moving back to, for example, metropolitan areas?

Shaun: I wouldn't say that we're seeing it as obviously as in the direction of people leaving. That interprovincial migration from Central Canada out to the coasts has there been a big reversal of that. There's been a reversal of people going back to Saskatchewan and Alberta, but that's for economic opportunities.

Erin: That's very interesting, boy. You have a lot of crystal balls on the go there with your data and all of the tools. Could you ever have predicted that this might be some of the fallout of COVID? When we were actually told to shelter in place, people went, "Okay, I've had enough of this and we're going to do something else." It's a whole human nature and psychology thing, Shaun, but did any of the crystal balls say, hang tight, this is going to get really interesting?

Shaun: Boy. It became apparent at some point that maybe it wasn't so much the people moving around the country, but definitely, people looking for more or different things out of their home was another reason there was a lot of churn. I want to work out at home. I need room for a gym, I'm working from home. I need a home office. My kids are doing school from home. We want more green space.

Maybe we don't want to be as close to other people. If you can remember what that was like back in the early stages of the, could we have seen it coming? Boy. The only prediction that I made during COVID that I think I got right, I got really slammed for in the comments section, I learned my lesson to never read the comments section, was a video I did with a fairly major national news outlet early on.

That was a long form one where I'd made the comment. It was in the very early days when the data was very bad and everyone was really freaking out about what the market was going to do. I said, ''Look we came into this pandemic with a really red hot market, and that's not normally a good thing for things to be that out of balance.''

If you're going to have a big bucket of cold water thrown on you a good place to start is to be red hot. I think that ended up being true. As far as things rebounding and going crazy the way they did we didn't necessarily predict that things were going to go off a cliff, but to come to the defense of those who did nobody knew that rates were going to get dropped the way they were.

Nobody knew about the support programs that were going to come out. Nobody could gauge to your point, the psychology of the world has changed and my whole life has changed and I'm going to change where I live. I don't think anyone predicted that. I think that the best we could do was we track daily data so that we could see it coming before anyone else, and that was about the best we could do. We're about a month ahead of everyone else.

Erin: Up next with CREA Senior Economist, Shaun Cathcart, the part of our country that seems to have staved off the biggest whiplash after that highest of highs, REALTOR.ca sent 5.7 million leads to REALTORS® in 2022. On average, 54 leads are sent to REALTORS® every 5 minutes. These leads are exclusively available to you as a benefit of your CREA membership. Of course, is information you're hearing today on REAL TIME.

Let's get back to our discussion with Sean Cathcart, shall we, Sean, you mentioned one region of Canada in particular and going back to 2015 with the oil patch crash and all of that, there is a region of Canada that didn't join the 30% price growth, but actually is having now a better outcome because of it. Can we look at that for a sec?

Shaun: Sure. Again, that's your Alberta, Saskatchewan the places that were still as everyone else was heating up from 2015 to 2020 they were still pretty cool looking in that part of the country prices melting high inventories. I guess to come back to my previous analogy, if you're going to have a market that suddenly goes red hot and you don't want it to come out of control, a good place to start is on the cold side.

What I would say about Alberta and Saskatchewan is the analogy I like is they showed up really late to the COVID party and didn't see any anywhere near that price growth and for that reason, they got a lot less of a hangover right now.

Erin: There you go.

Shaun: Those are the parts of the country that are actually from a sales activity standpoint above average prices holding on pretty well. Pretty much the only part of the country where prices are really holding on and aren't off that peak at all. It's something to watch. Definitely almost like a reversal back to the way things were prior to 2015 in a way.

Erin: No kidding. The market has felt like a roller coaster with those exceptions of Alberta and Saskatchewan that you talk about these past few years, it's been whiplash watching things. Do you think, Sean, that this degree of flux is the new normal?

Shaun: I don't think it's the new normal. I certainly hope it's not because it's very stressful, I think, back to my life doing this job before COVID, analyzing a 2% increase and a 1% decrease, and trying to figure out what it meant. It was a lot less stressful than sales plunging off a cliff and then flying into the stratosphere. I don't suspect we're ever going to see volatility again like we saw during COVID unless we have an event that's as big as COVID. I'm thinking that things are going to settle back down, and so the real question for the market is where are they going to settle and when are they going to settle, I suppose?

Erin: Has it become harder or easier to predict housing trends?

Shaun: Both, it depends on your time frame and it depends on what you're talking about, easier in some ways during COVID when a global pandemic hit, it was easy to forecast that activity was going to go down, and then when people started buying houses like crazy, it was easy to forecast that prices were going to go up.

Longer term, it's easy to forecast that the market is going to come back to a position of arguably too much strength relative to the supply because the demographics are that strong and they will be, it's already happening and it's known, but where has it become harder? Well, it's become harder when you're forecasting 2020 back in 2019, and you don't foresee a global pandemic coming.

It's harder in 2021 when you're forecasting 2022 and you don't foresee a generational inflation crisis, and so it really has been a roller-coaster, like you say. I think that the hope is that 2023 we're through COVID, we've tamed inflation to some extent and that we can barring the next crazy thing that happens. I've often joked that pandemic used to be used as an example of a crazy black swan event that could happen, but not so much anymore, so I was thinking maybe, I don't know, like super volcano or alien invasion or something.

Erin: Could you just not?

Shaun: Barring those things or something similar? I think that we're going to see things calm down, let's hope.

Erin: I sense a lot of optimism for you in the longer term because of the demographics for Canada. They are so strong, you've said that, and that it's easy to say that we're going to get back to trend and keep going. Is that even with inflation? What are you thinking here, Shaun?

Shaun: See, I'm not a professional inflation/Bank of Canada watcher, I watched the watchers though, and I know what they think, so the idea is that inflation has come off its peak, you could say, oh, that's just gas prices and maybe it is, but the bottom line is that it is moving in the right direction. It's widely thought that the Bank of Canada's very close to finishing up their tightening cycle, which is also going to be good for housing, it's not going back to rates that are going to be friendly to first-time buyers anytime soon, but you got to stop going up before you can start going down.

I think that that's where I'm looking at the demographic and the return to trend is more of a long-term thing that I think that we can really get, we're probably not going to get running on all cylinders again until 2025 when all of those first-time buyers can come back and have interest rates that are a bit more friendly. So it'll take us a-- It's a multi-year climb out of this situation, but I think that that's the direction it's going to be moving in.

Erin: Look at just how Shaun Cathcart with a little help know a lot of help from the boards who feed him data can peer into the future and help us all. REALTOR.ca is the only real estate portal that combines MLS system feeds from every real estate board and association in the country. First of all, it's right there at your fingertips. Learn more at REALTOR.ca. Now back to REAL TIME, the podcast for Canadian REALTORS® and even those of us who just watch and listen with interest. In this segment, we're going to take a look into 2023 and your forecasting, you've already mentioned 2025, but it's a little bit a closer focus, but before we do, Shaun, what factors influence how you forecast housing trends?

Shaun: Sure, the biggest factor that influences the way that you model data like this is the data itself, where it is that's your starting point for your forecast and what direction it's been moving in, historical volatility, and that sort of thing, and then you add in your various fundamental factors. Your longer term is population growth and just demand and supply in the housing market.

A shorter-term interest rate forecasts and employment forecasts that heavily influence the housing market in the short term, and you plug all this stuff into a model and you get your highs and your lows and your middle-of-the-range outputs, and then you can exercise some judgment within that range based on things that are not possible to put into a model. Those are the fundamental factors. The things that you would just assume is demographics, employment, interest rates, people that need to live somewhere, are they gainfully employed? Do they have a good confidence in the future and are they able to go out and borrow the money to buy that place?

Erin: It's so much more than just shoveling numbers into a magic generator of some kind. You have to use your gut when you're forecasting. You have to use your experience and you have to use your knowledge of how Canada works. Forecasting into this year ahead of us, what do you expect the housing market to look like, Shaun, based on the current available data and what you know?

Shaun: Right. The way that we're thinking about that we've published a forecast recently that people can go look at CREA.ca but I'm not going to get into super specific numbers. It's more of a narrative at this point. 2022 is the year where everything changed, interest rates went from zero to inflation-fighting mode in a year. Sales went from red hot to below average in a year.

Prices went from the biggest month-over-month increases ever, boom, boom in the winter of 2022 to the biggest declines we've ever seen, bearing in mind that they're still way up from before COVID, but they have given some of that back. Market conditions went from the tightest market conditions we've ever seen, one month of inventory nationally to much more in the balanced range still on the tight side, but a big change in the course of a year.

If 2022 is a year that all of that changed very rapidly, I think 2023 is the year that it stops changing at least. We have a year where things calm down, flatten out. We're already seeing that on the sales side. I'm seeing it on the price side in some markets, but that's not everywhere yet. That's still playing out on a downward trend a little bit. Interest rates flat to be close to a top at this point. That's going to stabilize.

2022, think of a year not of recovery, but of turnaround. Hopefully, we see some improvement on the road to 2024 where that's when we really start to see the improvement. Then I would think, even though our forecast doesn't go out this far, 2025 is the year where really the market is back running on all cylinders. It is a multi-year sort of climb out of this. 2023 is the year that we turned the corner, I suppose.

Erin: If I understand you correctly, Shaun, the decline was the steepest that wasn't a financial crisis but we started from the highest point, therefore, we come out ahead of where we would've otherwise. I'm not trying to turn this whole thing glass half full and half empty, but really, we are starting from a much higher basis point, are we not? Am I understanding this correctly?

Shaun: Yes. That applies to both when we talk about sales and prices being down. The only thing that really compares is the financial crisis, but the difference is in the financial crisis, sales went from Goldilock's middle of the road to ice cold, whereas this time they went from white hot to a little below average. It's a big decline but you need to think about what you're comparing where your starting point was. The same thing with prices.

Prices went down more in the last year than they did in the financial crisis, which is the only really, other time that we really saw a significant decline in recent history. They also went up in advance of that decline by way more so that, to your point, from the beginning point to where we are today is that much better. It's much higher and the sales picture is much more average as opposed to being historically low. Again, I come back to the point I think I made earlier that if you're going to have a bucket of cold water thrown on you it's good to start off white hot and you might end up just lukewarm.

Erin: Where do the first-time buyers end up in this whole scenario then moving forward as you look ahead? When can they feel like, okay, we're ready as a demographic, generally speaking, Sean,

Shaun: I think for a lot of them I've often said in 2022, there's a lot of people on the sidelines and some of them are waiting and watching and there's going to be a great window of opportunity for them to buy in in a slower market. If they're trading another home and they're playing with a lot of equity for first-time buyers who are borrowing a lot of money with interest rates as high as they are, it's going to be really tough for a lot of them. For a lot of them, they're going to be stuck on those sidelines for a while.

On the sidelines of the resale housing market probably in the rental market where I think that if I could make another prediction, we're probably going to see a lot of stories coming out about renovictions again and payments to landlords to secure a place and rents going up by $500. All of those stories we saw back in 2018, this is that on steroids. To come back to your point, where does that leave first-time buyers? It's not going to be enough for rates to top out which they're going to do possibly any day now, and it's not going to be enough for them to start to go down which could happen in the second half of this year even, maybe in the fall, the first cut.

They're going to have to actually be down. We're talking like two more normal from where we are now is we're talking like 200 basis points which would be eight meetings from the Bank of Canada where they cut by 25 assuming they do it every meeting, that's still a year from when they start. I don't think until, like I say, to get all of these first-time buyers back engaged in the market the way they want to be with friendlier interest rates is probably more of a 2025 story than it is certainly not a 2023 story.

Maybe towards the end of 2024. If you looking at buyers really reentering the spring market in big numbers that's probably looking out into 2025, unfortunately. It's going to take that long for the Bank of Canada to wind down this inflation fight that they're in.

Erin: In our final segment with Shaun Cathcart, we look at the year ahead and beyond. Look, we all love a happy ending, right? Well, there are some amazing stories awaiting you from a first-time buyer sharing how her realtor opened the door to homeownership for her to how one woman's realtor helped her through last year's ups and downs. Read these stories and think about sharing your own.

Just go to REALTOR.ca and click Living Room. It's comfy and heartwarming just like a living room should be. Wherever you're listening today thank you. Now we're going back to CREA, senior economist, Shaun Cathcart. As we wrap up here, Shaun what should REALTORS® and their clients be aware of heading into 2023 year of the rabbit that feels like a tortoise, you said off the top in both the short and long term. What are you seeing and what can we expect?

Shaun: First of all, no offense to tortoises.

Erin: Oh, no. We love tortoises. We love all animals.

Shaun: I like tortoises, but the analogy is that it's still going to be a slower year. We'll get there. My advice for buyers, I think it's a real window of opportunity between the hot market that was that a lot of people did not want to engage in. A lot of existing owners who were looking to say, downsize or move up buyers do not want to engage with 10 other offers, a hundred thousand over asking when you're my age or older that's your money. That's $100,000 of your retirement fund.

That's not the bank's money that's 25 years away from having to deal with. I think a lot of people didn't want to have to deal with this market. There's a whole subset of buyers out there who are going to want to come back in now that real active market that we saw during COVID has been pushed out. I think that's a wild card for this year. If you're one of those buyers, it's going to be an opportunity to engage in a much slower market. One, like you probably remember from 10 years ago you can see different properties. They stay up for a while.

They don't just disappear. You don't have to make a decision in two days. You can negotiate, you can look at different properties, you can do a home inspection, you can put conditions in your offer. A lot of things that people have been waiting for and you also are going to probably be able to negotiate that listing price down a bit. A lot of things that we would consider a more normal balanced market will be back in 2023. I think it's not going to be a normal market, it's a turnaround year that's going to be heading back, I think in the hotter direction just based on supply and demographics.

For now, I think it's a window of opportunity. If you're a seller this is not the market of one year ago and you are likely, unless you're in a very few places in Canada, not going to get the kind of money you could have gotten in the second week of February 2022. I think that there is a chance that prices are stabilizing. I don't think that they're in free fall. You be careful about how you price your property and be prepared to negotiate because there is going to be more of that. Price it properly and price it reasonably and just don't think that we're in the market of a year ago because we're not, but we're also not still heading in the direction that we've been heading in since then. How about that?

Erin: That sounds great. Also, you have advised people don't be offended. Don't take it personally. This is a change in things ride it out and make the most of it.

Shaun: This is how it's been for most of buyers and sellers throughout most of history. Coming off of some of the conditions that maybe some people were used to seeing in the last few years, yes, it's going to look a lot different for now. A lot more similar to what it's been throughout most of our history, these big seller's markets tend to be the exception, not the rule.

Erin: Excellent. Thank you for your time and your insight, Shaun, it's always great talking to you, and really, do have a great year.

Shaun: Thanks, Erin. You too.

Erin: Thanks so much for listening to this episode 34 of REAL TIME. To catch up on previous episodes with everyone from designers to architects and ability, ambassador and an ad agency genius, just scroll through our REAL TIME podcasts, I promise you'll find hours of great and timeless information. Be sure to click follow so you don't miss a new one. REAL TIME is a production of Alphabet® Creative with technical production by Rob Whitehead and Real Family Productions. I'm Erin Davis, and we'll talk again soon on REAL TIME.

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As part of REALTORS Care® Week 2022, we’re joined by Chris Jarvis, co-founder of Realized Worth. At Realized Worth, Chris designs volunteering strategies to help businesses drive engagement, retention, inclusivity, and stronger relationships with their communities.

On Episode 32 of REAL TIME, Chris helps us understand how we can reprogram our brains to feel empathy for groups with whom we don’t identify. By breaking down barriers, and adopting a transformative approach to volunteering, it can help us see the world with a fresh perspective.

Episode Resources

1. Realized Worth
2. Invisible People
3. The RW Institute
4. The Brain, Episode 5: Why Do I Need You?

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Canada frequently ranks as the best country in the world for its quality of life, but what does it mean to live in Canada? How does the Canadian experience differ among subsets of the population? And what social, cultural, or lifestyle trends might be impacting Canadians’ real estate decisions?

On Episode 31 of REAL TIME, we’re joined by Canadian media figure Lainey Lui, ETALK correspondent and co-host of The Social. Known for her sociological perspective on the value of pop culture, Lainey joins REAL TIME to put the Canadian experience under the microscope.

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Over the last few years some industries have experienced a labour shortage while others have seen an increase. As the workforce continues to evolve, creating a culture that employees value is critical to attracting and keeping the right talent, and driving your business forward.

On Episode 30 of REAL TIME, we’re joined by Neil Thornton, President of the Thornton Group, to help REALTORS® and brokers, regardless of their role on a team, strengthen their leadership, coaching, and engagement skills. Gain insight on how to build a strong team culture anchored in a shared vision.

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Historically, real estate has been a referral business, with business development driven by reputation. So, in an industry where word-of-mouth is your strongest marketing tool, how does modern marketing fit in?

On Episode 29 of REAL TIME, we’re joined by Priyanka Goswami, Executive Vice President of One-to-One and Customer Experience at award-winning creative agency No Fixed Address.

Priyanka joins REAL TIME to offer insights on how REALTORS® can take a focused approach to marketing their business, building a strategy that includes first-party data, personalization, success metrics, and more.

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We might be living in a digital age, but a career in real estate is personal.

On Episode 28 of REAL TIME, we’re joined by James Duthie, Canada’s favourite sportscaster, to explore one of the most personal tools of the real estate trade: conversation.

Hear James’ approach to sparking meaningful conversations at work and in life – with examples from throughout his career (the good and bad).

From breaking the ice to broaching sensitive topics, learn how REALTORS® can use conversation to build stronger relationships with their clients.

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On Episode 27 of REAL TIME, we’re joined by Newfoundland and Labrador-born, Norway-based architect Todd Saunders, best known for his iconic design of the Fogo Island Inn and studios.

A Canadian architect with a global presence, Todd shares his unique perspective on the relationship between architecture and the ways in which we live in, interact with, or appreciate a place.

Todd also shares his personal story defining a new vision for architecture as well the importance of building strong, trustworthy relationships with clients.

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Dr. Raj Bhatla is Psychiatrist-in-Chief at The Royal Mental Health Centre in Ottawa, one of Canada’s foremost mental health care, teaching, and research hospitals.

Ron Antalek is a REALTOR® in Maple Ridge, British Columbia with more than 30 years’ experience, a mental health advocate, and the recipient of the Canadian REALTORS Care® Award 2020.

On Episode 26, Dr. Bhatla and Ron join REAL TIME in support of Mental Health Week 2022.

Aligning with this year’s theme of empathy, they explore various topics surrounding mental health including destigmatization, mental health in the workplace, the vulnerability of REALTORS®, and how to support one another through compassion and understanding.

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In the mid-90s, the Internet ushered in a new era in how consumers buy and sell real estate. Today, one platform is more popular than any other in Canada.

So, how did we get here? And what’s next?

On Episode 25 of REAL TIME, we’re joined by Patrick Pichette, Vice President of REALTOR.ca, and Andrew Jackson, Head of Business Development at the Canadian Real Estate Association. We explore the evolution of listing sites and how REALTOR.ca has staked its claim as a leading platform beyond listings.

We also discuss the future of Canadian real estate, new innovations on the horizon, and REALTOR.ca’s trajectory to further support REALTORS® and their clients.

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“We’ve accelerated into the future by at least a decade.”

The pandemic has pushed us further and faster into a digital-first economy. In an industry like real estate, where trust and human interaction are paramount, what’s the impact of this digitalization? More importantly, what can REALTORS® expect as technologies like artificial intelligence, augmented reality, and the metaverse continue to gain traction?

On Episode 24 of REAL TIME, we’re joined by futurist Sinead Bovell, the model who talks tech, to explore the pros and cons of a society that increasingly engages, transacts, and communicates through technology.

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Today’s leaders are being tested.

From emerging technology and shifting employee values to uncertainty introduced by the pandemic, the workplace is changing. And leaders are changing with it.

So, what does it mean to be a leader today? And how do we prepare for tomorrow?

On Episode 23 of REAL TIME, global speaker and author Hamza Khan shares his unique perspective on the future of work. Learn how leaders can take care of their teams, businesses, and themselves – and how REALTORS® can be seen as leaders in their field.

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Whether it’s our salaries or family dinners, negotiating is part of daily life. For REALTORS®, it’s fundamental to their business.

On Episode 22 of REAL TIME, we’re joined by Wes Hall, one of North America’s most influential business leaders, to wrap up the year with some practical knowledge and inspiring stories.

Wes shares his journey from humble beginnings in Jamaica to Bay Street in Toronto, and how negotiation was foundational to his success. As the newest dragon on Dragons’ Den, he also shares tips for staying grounded as an entrepreneur.

From knowing your audience to knowing your worth, gain insight to help build your skills as a negotiator and an advisor.

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During the first year of his family medicine residency, Dr. Naheed Dosani experienced a devastating and life-changing event: one of his patients passed away.

That patient, Terry, had lived on the streets for 15 years, had terminal cancer, and was repeatedly refused access to proper palliative care. It was too little too late.

Deeply affected by Terry’s loss, Dr. Dosani realized that while we all have equal access to healthcare in Canada, it doesn’t mean we have equitable access. And so he pledged to inspire change.

To complement REALTORS Care® Week 2021, we join Dr. Dosani to gain a front-line perspective of the inequities facing homeless, poor, and vulnerably-housed Canadians. We look at housing as a healthcare issue, how we can cure it through policy, and how we can tap into our own vulnerability to ensure no one has to fall through the cracks.

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What’s cost-effective, functional yet invisible, and has the power to improve homeowner safety and strengthen communities?

Universal Design: an approach to designing spaces that are inclusive and equitable for all.

On Episode 20 of REAL TIME, we speak with Brad McCannell, Vice President of Access and Inclusion at the Rick Hansen Foundation, to explore the personal, societal, and financial value of adopting Universal Design practices in both our homes and shared spaces.

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Canadians have had their say in Canada’s 44th federal election, ushering in a new Liberal minority government. What led to this result and what does it mean for Canadians?

On Episode 19 of REAL TIME, we’re joined by one of Canada’s most prolific political journalists and commentators, Chantal Hébert. Join us as we unpack the election’s political implications for Canada’s housing crisis, including the newly-elected government’s housing promises, and how all parties might align to support a more accessible and sustainable housing sector.

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Vacation properties have been around for decades, but their popularity has sky-rocketed over the last few years. What’s driving that trend, and how is it changing the current market?

Heather Bayer, co-founder of Vacation Rental Formula, joins us for a deep dive into the dos and don’ts of vacation property investment, how the sharing economy has affected the way vacation rental businesses operate, and the responsibilities all owners have to their guests and neighbours.

From helping your clients find their own vacation property, to what the next year may hold, Episode 18 of REAL TIME is a must-listen for the latest trends and insights.

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We might think we know what characteristics define each generation, even when it comes to real estate. Baby Boomers are downsizing, Millennials can’t afford to break into the market, Gen Z are tech obsessed, and Gen X… who are Gen X again? But are any of these prevailing notions true, or are they just stereotypes?

In this special episode of REAL TIME, we talk to four REALTORS® from across the country about their experiences with clients of all ages and how each generation is navigating and redefining the landscape. First, we chat Gen X and Gen Z trends with Davelle Morrison and Austin Titus. Later, we explore what’s hot in real estate for Baby Boomers and Millennials with Rob Marland and Tanya Eklund.

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From career uncertainty to work-life balance to interpersonal conflict, there’s no shortage of challenges facing today’s professionals. In Episode 16 of REAL TIME, we explore the latest thinking in industrial and organizational psychology to help professionals set themselves up for success.

Discover an insightful conversation with Dr. Winny Shen, Associate Professor of Organization Studies at York University, as she shares techniques for REALTORS® – and all professionals – to gain a mental edge by better managing stress, strengthening their work relationships, embracing mentorship opportunities, and more.

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From autonomous vehicles to on-demand everything, technology has woven itself into the fabric of our lives. But what about its impact on the real estate industry? And, more importantly, what’s next?

In Episode 15 of REAL TIME, futurist and real estate thought leader Nikki Greenberg explains the breakthroughs and benefits of a rapidly evolving trend: property tech. Learn what prop-tech is, its potential to modernize residential and commercial development, and how it’s redefining the ways in which we interact with our homes, office spaces, and more.

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Investing in real estate for the first time can be equal parts exciting and intimidating. And for some, it can feel like a distant dream.

In episode 14 of REAL TIME, author, mentor, former TV host and Broker/Owner Sandra Rinomato tells us how to turn that dream into a reality.

What fears or misconceptions are holding first-time buyers back? What should REALTORS® do differently with new buyers? Sandra shares her advice to help break down the process and get to the root of the first-time buyer’s needs, providing actionable tips along the way.

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What is the relationship between our homes and our mental and physical well-being? Are there changes we can make to infuse a greater sense of joy into our living spaces? How can we reimagine the things we already have to elevate our homes aesthetically and functionally?

In Episode 13 of REAL TIME, designer and TV host Tiffany Pratt talks about connecting more deeply with our homes to improve well-being and live a beautiful life, no matter what ‘beautiful’ means to you. Because in her words – be it through colour, texture or personal items that invigorate our spirit – “our homes should make us feel something.”

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“You have to be part of changing the culture. If you want racist speech or actions to be unacceptable, you have to be one of the people saying it’s unacceptable.”

In Episode 12 of REAL TIME, we discuss racial biases and opportunity gaps facing BIPOC professionals in Canada. Joined by Dr. Hadiya Roderique – speaker, researcher and author of the viral article “Black on Bay Street'' – we look at ways to address racism in the workplace and other interpersonal settings. How do we recognize it? What does it mean to be an ally? How do we improve to be more diverse and inclusive?

Join us for a critical conversation with input from REALTORS® who’ve experienced racism or bias firsthand – and their advice on how we can do better.

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Last year, the COVID-19 pandemic quickly underscored the importance of “home” as refuge. As a result, Canadians started making their homes a larger priority, as demonstrated via record home sales, shifts in the types of homes purchased and a boom in home renovations.

Listen in as we discuss this change with Canadian designer, artist and TV host, Steven Sabados, and further explore ways we can make the most of our homes in 2021.

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2020 has been an unprecedented year in almost every regard.

In this episode of REAL TIME, we discuss the impact COVID-19 had on Canadians, how housing markets responded, how REALTORS® have adapted and what it all means moving forward. Join us as we dive deeper into these topics with insights from industry experts David Coletto (CEO, Abacus Data) and our own Patrick Pichette (VP, REALTOR.ca) and Shaun Cathcart (Senior Economist).

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More than 35,000 Canadians experience homelessness every day.

In recognition of this, and to complement REALTORS Care® Week 2020, we’re joined by Jesse Thistle, Métis-Cree author of From the Ashes and assistant professor at York University. Learn about Jesse’s personal experience with homelessness, how he’s become a leading voice for the issue, and what REALTORS® – and all Canadians – can do to help end and prevent homelessness on both a local and national level.

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In Episode 8 of REAL TIME, popular personal finance expert and award-winning author Kelley Keehn discusses the financial concerns and realities facing many Canadians today, including homeowners and prospective home buyers. Discover tips and tools for REALTORS® to help your clients assess and strengthen their financial health, even in unstable times.

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In Episode 7 of REAL TIME, award-winning designer, best-selling author and TV icon Sarah Richardson shares lessons learned during an incredibly successful career buying and designing homes – everything from the value of using a REALTOR® to making the most of your space on any budget.

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In Episode 6 of REAL TIME, we talk with Subtej Nijjar – President, Canada, at Mosaic North America and former partner at Union Creative, the agency behind CREA’s national ad campaigns – about methodologies REALTORS® can employ to better understand their audience, position themselves strategically and stay relevant in periods of change and a hypercompetitive industry.

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In Episode 5 of REAL TIME, we’ll join Riti Verma, real estate entrepreneur and CEO of RankMyAgent.com—with input from REALTOR® Ben Sweet—to discuss the importance of managing your online reputation as a REALTOR®. We’ll look at the impacts of online reviews, tips to get started, and how to ensure a positive experience to land and keep happy clients.

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In response to current conditions, businesses and REALTORS® need to react to a new world, though temporary, where human interaction is limited or discouraged. The real estate industry, built on relationships, will be significantly impacted. But within adverse conditions come opportunities and new human behaviours. For REALTORS®, maintaining a personal connection is crucial.

The CREA REAL TIME podcast provides an opportunity to give REALTORS® insight into how they can transform to be more adept in a digital retail environment.

Representatives from various levels within the industry provide guidance, clarity and give CREA members real world tools to implement.

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In Episode 3 of REAL TIME, we talk with Steve Murray, president and co-founder of REAL Trends, about the foundational elements of real estate – what’s changed, what hasn’t – and how trust and communication continue to play a vital role in safeguarding REALTOR® success.

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In celebration of Earth Day we’ll speak with REALTOR® Chris Chopik, a passionate environmental advocate about how climate-risk directly impacts the industry, the role REALTORS® can play protecting the environment, and what REALTORS® need to know about selling greener homes.

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This podcast is about brand storytelling. We’ll explore the crucial connection between REALTORS® and the emotional aspects of home buying and how to use those key elements to add value to your client relationships and the sales process.