The InForm Fitness Podcast

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Welcome to the InForm Fitness Podcast series REWIND, a listen back to the classic interviews we’ve had with the high intensity gurus & master trainers… names like Martin Gibala, Bill DeSimone, Simon Shawcross, Jay Vincent, Ryan Hall & Doug McGuff.

This is the 3rd of 3 parts with veteran competitive bodybuilder, “biomechanics” expert, author and public speaker Doug Brignole. On his website Doug describes himself as “Bodybuilder on the outside & science nerd on the inside.”

In part 3, Doug & Adam talk about Balance & Core training, intensity, reciprocal innervation. Enjoy!

For more info about Doug Brignole:

www.dougbrignole.com/

www.greatestphysiques.com/doug-brignole/

For Doug Brignole’s books, visit Amazon:

www.amazon.com/Books-Doug-Brignole/s?rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3ADoug+Brignole

As always, your feedback and suggestions are always welcome.

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

We would love to hear from you with your questions, comments & show ideas…

Our email address is podcast@informfitness.com

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This is the 2nd of 3 parts with veteran competitive bodybuilder, “biomechanics” expert, author and public speaker Doug Brignole. On his website Doug describes himself as “Bodybuilder on the outside & science nerd on the inside.”

In part 2, Doug & Adam talk about Static vs dynamic exercise, along with speed movement and sports training. They start off the discussion with the old saying… “less is more!”

For more info about Doug Brignole:

www.dougbrignole.com/

www.greatestphysiques.com/doug-brignole/

For Doug Brignole’s books, visit Amazon:

www.amazon.com/Books-Doug-Brignole/s?rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3ADoug+Brignole

As always, your feedback and suggestions are always welcome.

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

We would love to hear from you with your questions, comments & show ideas…

Our email address is podcast@informfitness.com

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This is the 1st of 3 parts with Doug Brignole. On his website Doug describes himself as “Bodybuilder on the outside & science nerd on the inside.” His competitive career spans over 40 years & he has won numerous bodybuilding titles. His most recent book—“The Physics of Fitness”—is endorsed by nine PhD professors!!! Here in part 1, Doug & Adam talk about Compound vs isolation & natural movements.

For more info about Doug Brignole:

www.dougbrignole.com/

www.greatestphysiques.com/doug-brignole/

For Doug Brignole’s books, visit Amazon:

www.amazon.com/Books-Doug-Brignole/s?rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3ADoug+Brignole

As always, your feedback and suggestions are always welcome.

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

We would love to hear from you with your questions, comments & show ideas…

Our email address is podcast@informfitness.com

View Details

Welcome to the InForm Fitness Podcast series REWIND, a listen back to the classic interviews we’ve had with the high intensity gurus & master trainers… names like Martin Gibala, Doug Brignole, Simon Shawcross, Jay Vincent, Ryan Hall & Doug McGuff.

Adam kicks off the series with biomechanics expert, author, weight lifter, and personal trainer Bill DeSimone. Bill penned the book Congruent Exercise: How To Make Weight Training Easier On Your Joints. Bill is well known for his approach to weight lifting which focuses on correct biomechanics to build strength without undue collateral damage to connective tissue and the rest of the body.

In part 4 Adam & Bill discuss past & present trends in training, along with a quick chat about posture, mobility & feel in exercise.

Bill DeSimone Website

Optimalexercisenj.com

Bill DeSimone - Congruent Exercise

https://www.facebook.com/CongruentExercise

As always, your feedback and suggestions are always welcome.

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

We would love to hear from you with your questions, comments & show ideas…

Our email address is podcast@informfitness.com

View Details

Adam kicks off the series with biomechanics expert, author, weight lifter, and personal trainer Bill DeSimone. Bill penned the book Congruent Exercise: How To Make Weight Training Easier On Your Joints. Bill is well known for his approach to weight lifting which focuses on correct biomechanics to build strength without undue collateral damage to connective tissue and the rest of the body. In part 3 of 4, Adam gets Bill’s opinion on the machines vs. free weights debate. Then Adam asks the question, just what is functional training today?

Bill DeSimone Website

Optimalexercisenj.com

Bill DeSimone - Congruent Exercise

https://www.facebook.com/CongruentExercise

As always, your feedback and suggestions are always welcome.

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

We would love to hear from you with your questions, comments & show ideas…

Our email address is podcast@informfitness.com

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Bill DeSimone Website

Optimalexercisenj.com

Bill DeSimone - Congruent Exercise

https://www.facebook.com/CongruentExercise

As always, your feedback and suggestions are always welcome.

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

We would love to hear from you with your questions, comments & show ideas…

Our email address is podcast@informfitness.com

View Details

Adam kicks off the series with biomechanics expert, author, weight lifter, and personal trainer Bill DeSimone. Bill penned the book Congruent Exercise: How To Make Weight Training Easier On Your Joints. Bill is well known for his approach to weight lifting which focuses on correct biomechanics to build strength without undue collateral damage to connective tissue and the rest of the body.
In part 1 of 4, Bill explains all about being “Joint Friendly”.

Bill DeSimone Website

Optimalexercisenj.com

Bill DeSimone - Congruent Exercise

https://www.facebook.com/CongruentExercise

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

We would love to hear from you with your questions, comments & show ideas…

Our email address is podcast@informfitness.com

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The idea to include physical education as part of a child’s core curriculum is as uniquely American as Edison’s light bulb and the Blues. As early as the mid 1800’s American educators argued that, from kindergarten through to 12th grade, schools should provide children with the knowledge and activities necessary to maintain a high level of physical fitness for a lifetime. In the mid 1950’s, President Eisenhower established the President’s Council on Youth Fitness (PCYF) urging schools to offer ‘15 minutes of daily, vigorous activity’. And America’s Physical education system was born.

President Kennedy continued to address the issue of physical education, and although the PCYF did not have the authority to impose a national program, it developed and promoted a curriculum to improve fitness. Two hundred thousand copies were distributed in a sweeping drive to achieve widespread participation in the program for the 1961–1962 school year. The program produced a measurable improvement in fitness nationwide as well as a shift in public attitudes and wider participation.

Today, however, Fitness classes are disappearing from the nation's public schools at an alarming rate, vanquished by ever-tightening budgets and time constraints. Only about half of students in grades K-12 have physical education classes every day, and even less for high school students. All at a time when there is a growing body of evidence showing exercise to be fertilizer for the brain. Exercise fosters brain development and growth, and physical activity prepares children to learn.

If you are a parent with young children you must listen to our most recent episode, “Bad Education” with Robert Francis. Robert explains how important exercise is for our children and details the fascinating, yet sobering history of the Physical Education system in American schools; from its roots, its original mission, how we diverged and what, as parents, we can do about it.

As always, your feedback and suggestions are always welcome.

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

We would love to hear from you with your questions, comments & show ideas…

Our email address is podcast@informfitness.com

Inform_R FRANCIS Ep 70 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

physical education, exercise, sports, people, fitness, school, called, problems, education, athletics, early, teaching, educators, kids, gymnastics, plato, naperville, games, obesity, recreation

Arlene 00:01

The Inform fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman is a presentation of Inform fitness studios, a small family of personal training facilities specializing in safe, efficient high intensity strength training. On our BI monthly podcast, Adam discusses the latest findings in the area of exercise nutrition and recovery with leading experts and scientists, we aim to debunk the popular misconceptions and urban myths that are so prevalent in the fields of health and fitness. And to replace those sacred cows with scientific based up to the minute information on a variety of subjects will cover exercise protocols and techniques, nutrition, sleep, recovery, the role of genetics in the response to exercise, and much more. For this episode, Adam welcomes back Robert Francis, exercise historian and instructor at informed fitness. If you're a parent with young children, you must listen to bad education. Robert explains how important exercise is for our children and details the fascinating yet sobering history of the physical education system in American schools, from its roots, its original mission, how we diverged. And what as parents can we do about for the first time in American history, there is likely to be a generation dental are going to have a shorter lifespan than their pounds.

Adam 01:38

Well, I am so happy to bring back Robert Francis, once again, my mentor, so for so many years, who now have the honor of working with him for fitness. He has a fount of information, when I asked him about all the subjects that we should talk about, one subject that he likes to talk about, and he's well versed on is something that you don't normally hear me talking about, because I don't really know that much about it at all. Although Robert says I do no more than I think about it. So we're going to find out. And that is the subject of your original intent of our physical education system in the United States. You know, gym class and school, and how it compares to the actual present reality is how Robert likes to put it. So, Robert, I guess we'll start with this question. Why do you think this is an important subject for this podcast? Because you know, we normally talk about, you know, exercise fitness nutrition. So here, we're talking about the physical education system, the United States. So why do you think this is an important subject?

Robert 02:48

Well, we train hundreds of people a day in our studios. And I can see and you can see that people ask questions that they really ought to know the answers to people come in with problems that when we talk, we talk about how preventable so many of these problems are. And it's very clear that people have had an inadequate education for 12 years in the public school and kindergarten, on how to maintain their physical bodies. And in my view, a lot of what comes into our doors are not people wanting to optimize an already well moving body, but they're reconstructing a body that is falling apart from maladies and from conditions that are completely preventable, and that they ought to have been adequately educated in order to prevent they're coming in with problems that have to be dealt with. First, sometimes their injuries very often, it's obesity, and diabetes, there's a lot of makeup work that has to be done before we can put them on a course of really robust physical health. Well, you're

Adam 04:13

right. I mean, are you? Are you including a lot of orthopedic issues as well? Yes, sometimes? Yeah. But it's not just orthopedic issues. You're saying things like, you know, metabolic syndrome type stuff, you know, just obesity, high blood pressure, just just bad health,

Robert 04:27

and a lot of the problems that those things bring on mental distress, anxiety, depression, and all the rest of these things that had they been maintaining had they've been taught, according to original intent for physical education, the so

Adam 04:45

you're saying the original intent of our physical education system, you'll have to tell us when that started, actually, is that the 40s? Is that the 30s but the original intent whenever that was in our physical education system, United States, it was a good intent. They had good intentions and they did it well.

Robert 05:00

Well, physical education has been something that's always been in flux in this country. And it says some of it has to do with customs. And some of it has to do with cultural changes. But the original intent was so intelligent that it would apply today and top physical educators today are trying to get back to the original intent.

Adam 05:23

Well, what was the original intent? And when did that start? The original

Robert 05:27

intent was voiced in the 1820s. But had its origins earlier than that between 1802 an 1809. The original intent was to provide children with the knowledge and interest in maintaining a high level of physical fitness for life.

Adam 05:51

Was that a mission statement? Did you just read that as a mission statement from from the Board of Education,

Robert 05:56

that would have been early educators, I think there was no Board of Education yet in 1820, but by American educators, there had been a great interest in the works of Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, that many people don't know, was a wrestler. He was a student of Socrates, teacher of Aristotle, Plato developed what he called the academia, which means school, school is an English word comes with German word shul, which literally means place for having fun and learning. In Plato's Republic, he had addressed Physical Activity and its importance and its relationship to learning. Boys and girls learn far better in an atmosphere or in a setting where physical activity occurred on a regular basis. In fact, a daily basis, Plato had been very influenced in his observations of schools all over the Greek world. And he went to the islands, and he went to southern Greece, where he observed the very systematic training in Peloponnesian of Spartan boys. There was a very rigid training that started at age seven. And Sparta was not known as a city state that valued poetry and music and drama and dance, but they train their boys. Physically, there was no systematic learning program, anywhere else, everybody sat in what was maybe a theater, and the expert or the guru, or the person would come in and talk, you know, kind of like watching maybe YouTube videos more than a systematic today, we do this. Tonight, we do this tomorrow, we get up at this time we do that. And the systemization was very impressive to Plato. And that started to influence Greek schools, everywhere. This was of interest to Westerners in the 1820s, because we started discovering these antiquity, started reading the Old epic poems and started reading the old books written by the old masters of the ancient days. And we thought, well, this kind of learning are things that we will need in American public schools. Now, there had been systems of exercise developed in other countries,

Adam 08:37

systems based on the the early Greeks,

Robert 08:40

not necessarily Europeans, also had similar interests. And so running, jumping games with implements and balls and things. Were in their early development, most of it grew out of the gymnastic systems, but the idea that physical education is educational, and ought to be planted in the public schools rather than in, for example, Germany, it was the Turnverein, which these were clubs where you would father would take son meet their brother, and you know, and his kids and they would do gymnastics, and you know, for the most part, drink beer and eat sausages. But the idea of placing physical education in public school education developed in the United States, it didn't develop anywhere else or developed here. First, meaning unlike Germany, physical education was not meant to be training for the military. Unlike Sweden, it wasn't training just for bodily fitness. And unlike England, it wasn't games and athletics just for recreation. Physical Education is, for the most part, an American concept and it has had been developed from interest in developing the body as a part of a person's wholeness.

Adam 10:07

And that's a unique American idea is that directly from the ancient Greeks,

Robert 10:13

the modern embodiment is an American ideal. But that is right. That is right. It was adapted from the Greek Academy.

Adam 10:22

Well, I want to talk specifically about the program, I want to know what kids were taught, when you say that you're trying to emulate the Greeks, about teaching education, as the body is, as some part of your wholeness, you know, complete person needs to be physically active and physically strong. How did they teach that? What was the early curriculum like? And how is it compared to the curriculum now?

Robert 10:42

Well, in the early days, there were no real physical educators that would, it would usually be the people who were their regular teachers. A lot of it was not uniformly applied, because it had to do a great deal with an individual teachers own experience, and what physical activity, they themselves understood. These things started to get more uniformly applied later.

Adam 11:09

Are you saying there was this push for educating children in our school systems in the 1820s? So who was pushing for it? Where did it start to start which school system to start in New York to start to start all at once I said, you said people were pushing for certain states,

Robert 11:24

the early models were at places like Harvard and Amherst College, because that's where the people who were educated and who had access to a lot of the ancient classics, and this is where the the ideas were percolating. And so the development of physical education was from really the people who they observed as the experts in the day, and that would have been Swedes, Germans, and together with what was culturally known in the United States, games like Rounders and games with, with balls and things like that. And these are the same places where games like basketball and volleyball were developed a little bit later. But physical education really started becoming what we know of physical education really around the civil war time. And there were educators who were looking at calisthenics and gymnastic exercises, which pretty much the way that things had been for 40 or 50 years. The other school of thought were advocates of athletics, and they felt that games and sports were more social in nature, and that they required more participants to make very quick judgments and called on other qualities, non physical qualities, courage and cooperation, self reliance and ethics. And a lot of that was from the English tradition of athletics and games, where being a good team member would improve your character, and it would make you an excellent citizen of the Empire.

Adam 13:07

Yeah, well, that makes sense. I mean, yeah, I mean, we all agree that sports do all those things. But they both went out because I mean, I think schools incorporated sports and physical education as far as just getting stronger and exercise in general, from a pure sense, not necessarily the competitive part.

Robert 13:25

Well, another of the original intent of physical education in this country had been that American children would be made into lifetime participants, not lifetime spectators.

Adam 13:39

But this happens in one exercise a sports, same doesn't matter.

Robert 13:42

But what ended up happening is the model that overwhelmingly came out on top was the athletic model, the teaching of sports, the rules of games and teaching of sports and the grading of children for much of American Physical Education, the grading of students against other children rather than against themselves, that calisthenics and bodily exercises like gymnastics or and I have to say that the term gymnastics is not the term of the sport of gymnastics as we know it today. In the Olympics, right gymnastics was exercise back it was what we would call exercise. It was clubs swinging clubs that were loosely like a mostly like a baseball bat.

Adam 14:33

So that was considered a gymnastics that was considered exercise.

Robert 14:36

Yes, that would that would have fallen into the category of gymnastics club swinging was

Adam 14:42

alright States didn't really adapt gymnastics as such. They started veering towards the sports athletics route well,

Robert 14:51

right in the education in in physical education. The preferred model was the athletic model.

Adam 14:57

Who Are there any names here? I mean, who was the best proponent for you know, gymnastics in the American schools versus who was the big advocate for sports in the school education system?

Robert 15:08

Well, Walter Camp was a principal name. And Walter Camp especially I was name is, of course, highly associated with football. And I don't know how many stadiums are called Walter kam field, but there are a lot of them. So he was the athletic well, he, he was one of the principal advocates for athletics, and particularly football football became two physical educators, a model of what they called American manhood should be that it was strength, and it was fleet of foot. And it was character building. And it was obedience. And it was fast thinking, and it was every thing that they thought American manhood should be. And really, I know that when I was in elementary school, my coach was former football guy. And so many of us who went to school in the 50s, and 60s, our phys ed coaches, were ex pro football players. These were the guys who were chosen or who, who got the phys ed jobs, rather than people who were specifically trained in education and knowledge about learning and teaching,

Adam 16:26

whereas they're gonna thought the whole thing about American education was teaching. And now you're telling me that not?

Robert 16:31

Well, physical education has been the exception. And that's what we're talking about, but I'm confused. What Um, well, the confusion is that we have very early on escaped from the original intent

Adam 16:45

very early. I mean, like says, like we ever got there. I mean, alright, so Walter Camp was one guy who is who is the guy on the other side? Well, first of all, where's Where did Walter Camp come from? Well,

Robert 16:54

he had been a long time physical educator, he felt that by doing physical education, with sports and games, and of course, football in particular, that that would satisfy a student's need or requirement for bodily exercise. And that that would be sufficient to motivate them for a future of lifetime of physical engagement

Adam 17:20

camp wrote a book, The Daily doesn't exercise regimen, right? So there were 12 exercises, they became known as hands, grind, crawl, wave, hips, great curl, weave head, grasp, crouch and wing. As the name indicates, there are 12 exercises. And they could be completed in about eight minutes. So he did this quickly. Right. So that sounds like exercise to me. It doesn't sound like sports to

Robert 17:45

me. Well, that's not what was proposed. He was a principal voice, not the only voice. And when you do things by committee, what ends up happening is is never one individual's conception.

Adam 17:56

So what was the other side?

Robert 17:59

Well, the other side were preponderance of educators who had been proponents of the ongoing gymnastics and calisthenic method.

Adam 18:10

Who is that was that like Banagher? McFadden? No,

Robert 18:13

no, no, he had nothing to do with public school education. The thing you I suppose you would call it the system, the establishment. But what ended up winning out before the 20th century was the athletic model, and that, for the most part stayed a part of American fiscal education until World War One, when nearly 35% of draftees were unfit for military duty. And in fact, the term fitness is a military term. You think about fitness, use fitness for what you know, you could be you know, fit for shoveling shit from one end to another, but fitness was a military term fitness for service, and that would be for war service. So 35% of American draftees were unfit for service in World War One. Immediately after World War One, there was a call for an entire reorganization of fiscal education in the public schools that we can have this lack of preparedness occur again and then everybody's budgets dropped because we had a depression. So that's one of the cultural changes that caused physical education to get derailed it very likely may have gotten on to a very good path. Had we not had the depression and we would have had better preparedness for World War Two. Now, World War Two conditions were even worse. 40% just a little over 40% of draftees were unfit for military duty.

Adam 19:49

And we blame and we blame at least in part, the fact that we were just focusing on sports and school not and we weren't focusing on orang

Robert 19:57

or or NUS or not at all, very little was was happening in physical education because it was not made a priority.

Adam 20:05

Alright, so we win the war. What happens then to our physical education system?

Robert 20:11

After World War two things were very different than after World War One in the 50s. We started reevaluating just about everything, because we were worried we start worrying about preparedness. And of course, you had a general who was president of the United States at the time. And when Eisenhower, that's right. during the Eisenhower administration, public school buildings started going up, everywhere, all of the new facilities were going to have sports facilities, and we're going to have much much upgraded physical education facilities compared to pre war. By the time Kennedy came in facilities where their money was free flowing, we could now start exploring what physical education could be. And new schools that were being built or being built with then state of the art equipment, equipment was, well, there, there would be rings and bars and ropes and even pulley machines and mats for wrestling mats and parallel bars and a lot of the things that had been abandoned in the previous years, and bringing back some of what the original bodily exercises,

Adam 21:21

so schools are incorporating all these things like, because I remember my I mean, I was in elementary school in the 70s. And I remember climbing a row, I remember the pegs that you had to kind of climb up the wall and put the pegs one after the other. And really that which is hard to have to do whatever amount of situps and mount of time and you know, there there was like this element of physical education,

Robert 21:45

what you had there were or what we had, we were at the very tail end of Kennedy's physical education program. And that was where we were tested. We were tested at the beginning of the year. And we were tested in the middle of the year with tests at the end of the year, for sit ups and shuttle runs, and you'd be tested for your chin ups. And you were tested. From year to year, you would see your progression.

Adam 22:13

Alright, so that was a 70 is where we are now because you're telling me like, you know, because of the people that you mentioned earlier, the people that are coming to us with metabolic syndrome, orthopedic problems. These are all the baby boomers that went through the school system like you and I did, because I am the last baby boomer. So I'm a sixth I was born 64. Right? So between 45, I guess, and 64 was a big baby boomers and they went to school, they went to elementary school in the 50s through the 70s. And these are the people that don't seem to be very well educated. And they certainly don't seem to be very healthy right now. Why? Well,

Robert 22:47

there are things we know now. And there are things that were not known in the 1960s when Kennedy's physical education programs were being formulated, I didn't say that Kennedy achieved what the original intent was in physical education, only that it was a better system than what had come before. So there are things we know now that we didn't know then there are people living longer now and people who are subjected to cultural changes that never existed in the 19, let's say 50s, where by the time they were 50 years old, in 1965, would be suffering from these metabolic diseases. There weren't certain things in the diet, they weren't certain cultural things, and all the rest. Where are we now, there is a term that's being used right now all over the world everywhere, called the new smoking. And that is something cultural everywhere. The new smoking was first used about three years ago in Lancet, the British Medical Journal. And the new smoking is inactivity, and all of the things that go with it. That's obesity, that's shorter lifespan. obese kids are more likely to be bullied, they have poorer jobs, prospects when they get older. And these things are occurring. Because of people looking at screens. They're not doing things and they're they're spending hours and hours playing games. They're up till obscene hours of the night, communicating with people all over the world and they're sleeping far less. They're doing far less. They're not riding their bikes, and they're not playing baseball, and they're not looking for hockey games, and they're not looking to be active. And this is what they're calling the new smoking. Now this is happening at exactly the time where physical education budgets are being cut everywhere. As I I understand that the median budget for physical education per school is under $800. That that would be for the entire school. And I think it ends up coming out to less than 10 cents per student. So at a time where we have this explosion in the new smoking, that is inactivity, obesity, and all of the problems that go with it, because there are other problems that go with it, there are mental emotional problems that go with it. There is a postural decay that's occurring. And this is something else that we see all the time, I don't think there's or I'd be surprised if there's anybody under 35 That doesn't have their head slung forward, and their shoulders rounded forward in a manner that is not going to be correctable. The posture problem alone is muscular weakness, eventually, eventually orthopedic problems, irreversible skeletal deformities, early osteoporosis, all of these things can contribute together with obesity into a vastly shorter lifespan. And part of the talk around the new smoking is that for the first time in American history, there is likely to be a generation that will are going to have a shorter lifespan than their parents, I can see that, and the things that we now know, that we didn't know in the 60s. And Kennedy implemented a lot of really excellence in physical education, with not a very large expenditure of money or resources.

Adam 26:50

I take back what I said a little bit, I mean, because I said, we're dealing with baby boomers. And they came out of the Kennedy Eisenhower Kennedy theory that that education belongs in the school, that he was on 10th, being, you know, following the Greeks, you know, what they, how they valued physical education. We had to do all that stuff in school when you had gym class, and we played sports, and we tried to climb those ropes. And, you know, there were problems with that. I mean, like, for example, people are not all kids are created equal. And your ability to climb rope doesn't mean you're not fit. I mean, there are lots of kids in that class that couldn't actually climb that rope. And they would judge by their ability to climb that rope. And they're scarred for the rest of their lives because they couldn't climb that rope. Meanwhile, they were strong fit kids that maybe were bottom heavy because of their genetics. And there's no way that we're going to be able to climb that rope, even though they might have been able to hit a baseball a million miles and crush you on the front line of a football team. They just weren't climbing the ropes. And like I think we kind of did very narrow ideas of what was required to be physically fit. And I think, where education went wrong there was to be able to separate as Ken Hutchins did later, on many years later, to separate the difference between exercise and recreation. There's nothing wrong with sports, but we have to know our risks. And there's nothing wrong with choosing these things. We're all big boys and girls, but when it comes to getting strong and the understanding of health, I think what we have to understand is that's not What sports do for us, sports, undermine your health, your physical health, it undermines the integrity of your joints, you get injuries that you might live the rest of your life with, like I am with my back problems and my shoulder problems from playing baseball for all those years. And here I am thinking that's all good exercise. For me. I'm out there playing sports, but it wasn't good for my health. Because I'm suffering right now, because of those things. My health. I mean, what Ken Hutchins did with the recreation verse exercise is exactly what I think should be taught in the schools right now, you make that distinction at an early age, the difference between exercise and what we do at informed fitness and the efficacy of high intensity training that doesn't undermine your health, versus the choice and benefits of sports. And being outside and being active, like the Greek said, be out there and be active, right. And you're talking now about our modern children, sitting behind a computer all day long in the basements not getting their sleep, which is a big part of health. Forget about exercise, forget about it. So T GE IQ, high intensity strength training, to help them build bone and to maintain a mind of fitness and strength throughout their lives. They get that, but they're not even doing the recreation part. They're not even going out and just riding the damn bicycle anymore.

Robert 29:39

Why is that? Why Why isn't it in physical education courses?

Adam 29:44

I don't know. Tell me why. Why isn't my school right now? Understanding that distinction? That's right. That is so

Robert 29:51

it's not it's not a rhetorical question, because so much of physical education in this country has been polluted with athletics, that all of physical education is not even required in higher education unless you're an athlete, his physical education has turned Americans, from participants into spectators, which was the opposite of the intent of Physical Education, physical education has become at the college level, a farm team for professional athletics. And that's all it's observed as if you're the kid who can't catch a ball, and who can't stop the puck or something like that. You feel like you have no use for physical education anymore. And the original intent is something that one has to get back to. Right now. Physical Education is so devalued that in most of the country, you're not even required to participate. Every single year, much of the country,

Adam 31:02

what's what grades you're talking about

Robert 31:04

K to 12. In much of the country, high school Phys Ed is only required for a single year. Yeah. And it's, it's it's optional, or edit and when it is provided, it's provided one day a week. In fact, in Florida, you're only required to have one semester of physical education between grade nine and 12. And that's all that's needed to graduate high school. And it's worse than that. You can do it online

Adam 31:36

level education.

Robert 31:37

There's one state in this country that has physical education in its charter for every student, K to 12, five days a week, one state, which is that state of Illinois Bridgeview, Illinois, their director of Phys. Ed at Naperville Public Schools is called Paul's and Tarski. And this guy is going to beat today's name in our modern Phys. Ed. innovator. What are you doing? Well, he's in part responsible for maintaining full load of physic every child every day, K to 12. In Illinois, now

Adam 32:26

is he the my education superintendent?

Robert 32:30

He's a Phys. Ed director, Naperville public

Adam 32:33

school. Oh, so he's just responsible for for Naperville, which is a suburb of Chicago, by the way,

Robert 32:38

after Harvard University sent a group of their directors to see what it is that's going on in Naperville. That their math reading science scores are far above the national average that their school system is competitive with the best in Japan and China, Norway, Sweden, what John ratty of Harvard University said, and this is this is in multiple multiple sources, after meeting Paul's and Toschi and examining their physical education program and the way it relates to other subjects. ratty said, exercises like fertilizer for the brain. It's like Miracle Gro. The thing about exercise, and this is at any age. And it's double true for people under 20 years old. That exercise builds neurons in new brain cells in the hippocampus. That's part of the brain that deals with memory and new learning. New Learning, crossword puzzles, puzzles, trivia games, don't build brain cells. Exercise builds brain cells. So this is going to become a big deal with Alzheimer's yet another disease that exercise can deal with, but it has to be dealt with young

Adam 34:09

and Naperville is on top of that.

Robert 34:12

They are the state of the art physical education colleges are teaching the system that they're using in Naperville. And another thing, exercise when it's applied, and when it's applied with skill. There are so many conditions and maladies that are just never going to happen to you. But the thing is that these things have to be dealt with early bone building in women. Really you have a you have a very short window of really being able to multiply your bone density. And that's really from pre pubescent until about the age of 16 Everybody We're all in that age group ought to be on an in tense regimen of strength training. And you're talking about between obesity and the maladies that follow, and the depression and the anxiety and all of the rest of these things, the posture problems, the orthopedic problems and the learning disabilities, you're talking about maybe a trillion dollars, billions don't matter anymore. But you're talking about trillions of dollars in health care, money, here, you have a solution to so many problems, maybe not every problem, and maybe not the total solution for any problem. But at least, you don't have to make something worse with the new smoking

Adam 35:46

true credit to Illinois for having physical education in their system for five days a week when everyone else is making it almost optional, it seems. But the question is, like I brought up earlier, I think it's great that they're making the kids get outside and recess every day, and there's maybe some sports involved. And they're playing dodgeball every single day. And they're playing a sports, depending upon the season, I guess. But are they teaching exercise? Are they teaching the difference between exercise and recreation? are they understanding that there is a difference? They understand the benefits of high intensity strain training versus cardio? Are they making those distinctions? Because that's where I think we need to be our education system

Robert 36:26

that that is in the first place, we have to take these things one step at a time. And the first step is physical education has to be a core subject. It has to be like math, reading, science, history, or like the commies call it now social studies, is we have to have the word social everywhere. But the start of improving these things first, and no, Naperville is not on that. That's a component bodily strength is a component there more than another physical education systems. But the start is where Naperville is that's the start every school, every grade, every student, every single day.

Adam 37:14

No, I agree. It's very important. We have a lot of problems right now. We have a lot of problems with our kids staying in the basement playing the video games, not wanting to go out and do things. I mean, I had one kid told me is that brings him into work out here. You know, I've formed a bond with him. But he's also friends with my son, they were in the same class. I said, Why don't you get together with my son? Today, you know, maybe you can go swimming in the pool or something. He's like, no need. I mean, we can just talk online, we can be together online. That's when you want to at least be together when you can. I mean, it's so easy for you guys to get together. You can hang out in the pool and go back and you can play your games on the arm on the computer. But you can also go swimming first and then go back and forth. Maybe? No, I think that's representative of a lot of kids. And that really scares me.

Robert 38:04

It's early stage depression. That really

Adam 38:07

concerns me. And it concerns me that the school and part of it is that the schools are emphasizing that. And if the schools are making it physical education, almost nothing practically anymore. For like you said, I mean, colleges now just farm teams for professional sports. So if you're not at that level, and you're not playing sports, I mean, they have intramurals I remember intramurals and college, are they I'm sure they still haven't done mural sports and things like that. And they were popular when I was in college. But yeah, I mean, I don't know.

Robert 38:36

It's sad. It's sad, and the facilities are there already. So

Adam 38:40

listen, so I talking to your kids, and getting them off the computer. We have to teach them. The schools aren't doing it. The schools aren't going to do it. And kids have to know how important exercise is. It's not just our state of mind, but it's for our physical health, weigh into our future what you do as a youth physically, exercise wise, has ramifications in your adult life. It's like investing into an IRA. If you don't invest into your health and your fitness and your strength, really, I mean, nowadays to me, fitness means strength. As Robert pointed out, fitness used to just mean your ability to fight in combat. Fitness now is about being strong and everything that comes from being strong. When I interviewed James Fisher, James Fisher was talking about you know, how strength is very, is very closely related to the lifespan, you know, the stronger you are, the less likely you are to die early. And our youth, as you pointed out, they're kyphotic their underslept overfed under active

Robert 39:43

bad posture, flat feet. They bore easily.

Adam 39:47

Yeah, I'm seeing that now. I mean, hope I don't sound like the old generation saying oh, the new generation today that Oh, no, no, but But

Robert 39:55

Well, you're right as they were right about us.

Adam 39:59

I really To wrap this up, sorry to end on such a sober note. But we have to advocate for ourselves, we have to advocate for our nutrition. And you know, like, no subject. Another talk I was having with people is that, you know, hospitals have the worst food by the way. And when you're in the hospital, and they feed they they serve you the worst food, you know, they'll give 60% carbohydrates to a diabetic. You know, my wife works in a hospital, I've been to their cafeteria, it's unbelievable what they're serving cafeterias or hospitals. I mean, like, where's our nutrition education? And if it's not being taught in the hospitals, if it's not being represented as a standard and a hospital, then where are we going to get this information from where people going to understand, you got to advocate for yourself, you're not getting it from the health care, you're not getting it from the hospitals, you're not getting it from the schools. Or you

Robert 40:42

have to wonder if that's just not a wide scale institutional plan to kill us all, you know,

Adam 40:49

but, you know, get your kids outside, get them to strength train safely, get kids to understand the importance of being strong and fit. And when I say strong, I don't mean being able to beat the shit out of somebody in the bullying school. Or I don't mean looking like some kind of Adonis on Men's Health magazine. And you look like a Hugh Jackman, we, you know, I mean, we all deal with origin and we're all normal, average people. But normal average, people can be strong. Alright, so I don't buy this shit that that my kid is a my kid more intellectual. Alright, he's not the jock. It's not about being a jock versus intellectual. It's about being an intellectual. And being a strong intellectual, you can be an intellectual not being into sports, alright, and still be strong. And kids need to understand the difference. Because they're being taught something else. They're being taught that if you're not into sports, then you're not an athlete, and you shouldn't work out and you don't have to work out. Because what's the point of working out? If you're not gonna play a sport?

Robert 41:49

You'll be a better intellectual if you're much stronger.

Adam 41:53

Yeah, you'll be healthier, longer living intellectual, so you can, you know, so you don't die at 27. Like some of my greatest influences. Plato was a wrestler. There you go. Alright. So for you listening to this episode, and you're relating to this, and you're thinking of your kids and the school that you're in, because I know, we have listeners all around the world, I'm really curious to know if people are experiencing what we're experiencing and how the schools are dealing with physical education, and where you're at whether you're in the United States and different districts in the United States and different countries. I just started training some new podcast listener and Sweden so I'm going to talk to him to I'm curious, if you really want to know how to advocate for your kids, give me a call. I can consult with you. I can teach you how to teach your children about the principles of proper exercise even if they're not, as they say in my town in the UK if they're not a sporty so you got the sport he's against the other kids that aren't sport is now the gamers, I guess, you know, it said that a sporty that people if you're not a sporty that you don't have to be physically fit. And that's a bad message to give to our youth. And we need to change that. And if you're curious, look up Ken Hutchins exercise versus recreation. I'm sure you can find that essay online somewhere. And if you can't, let me know, I'll send you a copy. Alright, so I'm doing lots of virtuals. Now all around the all around the world. It just signed up some really nice guy. Hi, Tom, if you're listening from Sweden, I can really teach you how to how to use a dumbbell correctly. If you want to really learn how to stay strong in a brief period of time and move on with your life. All right, I've never thought about promoting virtual training. But here I am. And I'm doing it is working because I just realized it's not about our fancy retrofitted equipment. That's nice. But you still need to know how to use the dumbbell correctly and not hurt his shoulder. Remember exercise recreation. Alright, everybody. Thank you very much. I'll see you next time.

Arlene 43:49

This has been the Inform fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman. for over 20 years informed fitness has been providing clients of all ages with customized personal training designed to build strength fast. Visit Inform fitness.com for testimonials, blogs and videos on the three pillars, exercise, nutrition and recovery.

View Details

There are times, if you’re lucky, when you meet someone who challenges and reshapes how you think about a closely held belief. Twenty-five years ago, meeting Robert Francis was such a time for me--a true mentor, he taught me to look at exercise in a completely new way.

Robert Francis—exercise historian, spinal rehabilitation specialist, machine designer and master exercise instructor--has been working in the field of exercise since 1981. A milestone of my career was when, eighteen years after I met him, Robert agreed to be an instructor at InForm Fitness, the company I founded due to his influence.

And now, Robert, a fount of information, joins me for the first of a series of podcast episodes where I pick his brain on a variety of interesting topics. Our first episode, Touching on a Sore(ness) Subject, we delve into the misunderstood and controversial topic of muscle soreness.

Is soreness necessary for strength gains? And if so, do you need constant variation and routine changes to consistently get sore and see progress?
What is, ‘The motor learning mirage’
What causes muscle soreness?
Why some muscle groups get sore and others don’t.
How sore is sore enough--Macro trauma vs. micro trauma.

We digress into a discussion on the knee extension machine and if going to full extension is safe? And we touch on why, in many cases, there is no substitute for a well-designed machine.
While it’s understood that muscle soreness is, generally, a good thing, we wrap up this episode discussing ways you can mitigate muscle soreness such as getting good sleep, staying hydrated, taking contrast baths, and eating well.

We would love to hear from you with your questions, comments & show ideas…

Our email address is podcast@informfitness.com As always, your feedback and suggestions are always welcome.

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

Inform_R FRANCIS Ep 69 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

sore, exercise, muscles, muscle soreness, soreness, people, machine, extension, robert, stimulus, workout, nautilus, knee, weight, degree, lowering, enigmas, contraction, resistance, negative

Arlene 00:01

The Inform fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman and co host Mike Rogers is a presentation of informed fitness studios, a small family of personal training facilities specializing in safe, efficient high intensity strength training. On our BI monthly podcast, Adam and Mike discuss the latest findings in the areas of exercise nutrition and recovery with leading experts and scientists, we aim to debunk the popular misconceptions in the urban myths that are so prevalent in the fields of health and fitness, and to replace those sacred cows with scientific base. up to the minute information on a variety of subjects will cover exercise protocols and techniques, nutrition, sleep recovery, the role of genetics in the response to exercise, and much more. For this episode, Adam welcomes his mentor, Robert Francis, exercise historian, spinal rehabilitation specialist, machine designer, Master exercise instructor, and instructor at informed fitness. On the first of a series of episodes, Adam and Robert will delve into the misunderstood and controversial topic of muscle soreness.

Robert 01:22

I can remember a day in the 11th grade when I couldn't walk up the stairs in school. And I got in a lot of trouble because I missed a couple of classes. I'd never had soreness like that again.

Adam 01:36

Hello, everybody. Welcome back. This is a very special episode for me. Because I'm here with Robert Francis. Robert Francis and I go back over 20 years. He's one of the reasons one of the main reasons one of maybe five people I can probably say that got me into this business, I wouldn't be where I am right now, if it wasn't for Robert and a handful of other people. Ken Hutchins, Ken leissner, Rob Cirino, Robert Francis, Arthur Jones, of course, truth be told, I wouldn't have met Robert Francis, if it wasn't for big drew Israel. So Robert now works with inform fitness. So to have my mentor working with me, is really special. It's one of the most special aspects of my career, to be honest with you being able to work side by side with this guy in my Port Washington location. He is a font of information. He has been at this business. He has been doing this as an exercise instructor since 1981. And just to give you an idea, I've been doing this for 23 years, and I started in 97. All right, he's a real pro. He knows everything about the iron game weight training, he is he has special interest in bodybuilding, the strongman competitions of old, all the Scottish games and all those crazy strongman competitions. You know, it's about the original dumbbells and all the pioneers in 1800s, about this. He just is a true true historian when it comes to exercise. And he's probably trained 1000s and 1000s of people. Of course, he's certified as an instructor. He has a degree in Exercise Science. He's also certified as a medical testing and rehabilitation technician. And that's a special designation because those medics testing machines are really special, and very technical. And you have to know what you're doing. He's using a rehab setting for a long time as well. So today, we're going to talk about, I mean, first of all, I can talk to him about a million subjects, and we're going to do a whole series of videos with him. I don't know why haven't done this before. But today's topic is going to be on muscle soreness. muscle soreness is a bit of an enigma. We all have our impressions of it. And there's a lot of misunderstanding about muscle soreness. So we're gonna get into that for the next 20 minutes or so. Maybe half an hour, I might run a little bit over. He's a little long winded, so forgive him. But he's so so informative. So gonna give him a little. He's my mentor. So I got to give him a little little leeway. So welcome, Robert Francis. Hi.

Robert 04:22

Well, thank you, Adam. That is very, very generous of you. I have got to do more of these. In fact, I'd like to listen to you a lot longer.

Adam 04:32

Especially when I compliment you like, Oh, that was better. It ends though.

Robert 04:36

That was a very, very short nap. So now I gotta earn my money. No more

Adam 04:39

asked kissing. So muscle soreness, Robert, we're gonna get deep into that. But before we go into exactly what exercise induced muscle soreness is, you've been at this a long time as I just mentioned, so why don't you share your experiences since 1981 on muscle soreness

Robert 05:00

I have a fairly long and very intimate relationship with muscle soreness. And I can remember the day after the first workout I took my coach who gave me my workout program asked me about, are you sore? And I remember saying, No, I didn't seem to feel sore, maybe I didn't know what I was looking for. But I told him, No, I wasn't sore, and he had a look on his face like, well, you're gonna have to get better at this, we're gonna, we're gonna have to get more serious if you're going to do anything with this. And so over the years, I got very, very good. And I focused on trying to do the things that would make me sore. Look for the hardest exercises, I did them the hardest way I could find and got very good at getting very sore in the 1970s, late 70s and early 80s. Negative training was a form of Nautilus exercise protocol, that was becoming very popular, and it was a means of exercising, that would get people very, very strong very, very quickly.

Adam 06:14

So Robert, before you move on, just explain negative only training real fast,

Robert 06:19

there are three levels of force that your muscles are capable of producing. When you're raising a weight, that is what we call the positive stroke, when you're lowering the weight, that's what we call the negative stroke, when you're holding a weight and the muscles length doesn't change, we call that the static or the isometric hold, right? Alright, so in the late 70s, and the, in the early 80s. Training, the negative or the lowering phase of a given exercise had been given a great deal of priority, and it had been explored by Nautilus engineers and technicians. And our attempt was to exploit the negative to wring out a great deal of strength with very, very little work. And what we did was, we would know what a person was capable of lifting, let's say their body weight of 200 pounds in a, let's say, a chin up or a dip. And we would add to that an extra 40%. So we would give additional to the 200 pound body weight weight stack around the belt of maybe as much as 80 pounds. And we would train a person in the lowering phase, now person would get a great deal stronger by just lowering the weight. Of course, the resistance would not be something that somebody could lift, one thing we noticed and learned is that it would cause a great deal of soreness, really, really shattering soreness, and sometimes it would last more than a week, 10 days, sometimes 12 days. But in doing these negative protocols, a lot of times we would have two people, for example on benchpress on each end of the bar, and we would raise a heavier than normal bar so that the person doing the bench press could have the luxury of lowering a much heavier than normal load. And they would do only the negative work only the lowering phase. Now one thing that would hatch right

Adam 08:38

don't try this at home kids.

Robert 08:41

Well, you need to he's a muscle

Adam 08:43

had days when you had these two monsters on both sides of the barbell, hoisting up this weight and you have to pray that this weight doesn't come crashing down your throat

Robert 08:52

and you need to very close friends and two very willing accomplices and they would not last very long because what you would realize is that when it came your turn to exercise to do your negative work. The other two guys are already taught to tired out half of them are too tired from doing the positive only by raising the weight you have to

Adam 09:15

you have to draw straws it but Guile draws a straw last is the one that has to go

Robert 09:19

Zack last Exactly. Well, we would get horrible muscle soreness from this and of course we we enjoyed it because we made the association between shattering muscle soreness, and tremendous growth. We'd also not be able to exercise for a week or 10 days because we'd have to wait until the soreness cleared. Keep in mind both the guys doing the lifting the positive only and the negative only all got sore. So even if you weren't doing the negative only if you were doing just the positive lifting the weight for the trainee. You still got sore nothing close to what the trainee doing the negative work, but you still got sore by 1989. At the medics headquarters were what became the medics headquarters, the old skunkworks of Nautilus where they did their prototyping and their engineering at their headquarters in Ocala. Arthur placed me in a surgical rotation machine. And this machine had no weight stack, it was a precursor for Nautilus, Rotary neck machine, it was a left a left to right rotational movement that had stops every seven to 12 degrees. And it would measure your strength at each of several stops, through an entire range of motion, it was 160 degrees range, they would measure strength at various stops through the range. So every 12 degrees, just about you would stop against a bumper, you would attempt to turn in the contrary direction, as hard as you could against the strain gauge that would measure the force that you were able to put out, you did this at each of several stops in the range first, right to left, then repeating it going left to right. So that you would equally test muscles on both sides of the neck. Now, this was an isometric only test, so there was no lifting, and there was no lowering of any resistance.

Adam 11:32

You just pushing against basically an immovable object.

Robert 11:35

That's right, a strain gauge that would although it would measure your the force output like a scale, nothing on the machine would move. So you'd push as hard as you possibly could. And they were contractions that were nine seconds, three seconds to slowly build up the force. push as hard as you can for three seconds holding the force and then slowly withdrawing the force over another three seconds in order not to produce an injury. Again, shattering soreness in part because these muscles aren't used to being exercise in that direction or in any direction really, for the most part, but those muscles became very sore doing just the isometric work.

Adam 12:17

Alright, Robert, there are certain things that got you very sore, isometric negative only. These are things that get you very sore. So then explain then what is muscle soreness.

Robert 12:28

Okay, the muscle soreness that we're talking about is to be distinguished from the muscle ache that occurs. During exercise. We're talking about the muscle soreness after an intense exercise. And the literature calls it Dom's or delayed onset muscle soreness. And this is the kind of muscle soreness that starts to set in eight, or even as long as 48 hours after exercise, it can last three four days can last even up to a week. What happens is it it manifests itself as a tenderness, tightness, kind of an achy pain, sometimes it's sometimes it's very, very deep, and sometimes it's just very, very subtle, but it sets in much later after exercise.

Adam 13:17

Okay, so what's the current thinking with with muscle soreness? Dom's, like you

Robert 13:21

said at the beginning, that word you used is a word that's used a lot. And that is enigmatic that it's an enigma. But the research tends to focus and has tended to focus for and there's research on this since the 60s, mainly on the the negative the lowering phase of the contraction, lowering a load, as I explained in the way we did negative training. But there are three main theories. And because it's so muddled, I think it's probably a good idea. And in my mind, I just combine all the three theories into one because I think that they all explain it reasonably well. One is that the contraction intensity causes muscle damage, and it manifests itself as micro trauma, the damage to the muscle membrane, the muscle cells as they slide against one another. It causes a certain kind of damage the muscle membrane called the sarcolemma. And what ends up happening is that the muscle damage increases the amount of calcium concentration the calcium sets off a cascade where certain enzymes come in and start to degrade the jacket so to speak of the muscle cells. The science people call that autophagy and it literally means the muscle is eating itself. The third theory is that the damage to the muscles attract specific white blood cells. These cells release prostaglandins and that's what leaves the neurons are, that's what leaves the nerves, nerve endings much more sensitive to stimulus, stimulus to touch, or to stretch or certain movements, that leaves the muscle very, very tender. The end result is that the body has to self repair itself. And the the restoration process is what takes, you know, four or five, five days, sometimes a week, when the muscle soreness sets in, what usually happens is, you have a significantly loss of strength and power, loss of range of motion, because the stretching the muscle too much causes tenderness, and contracting, the muscle becomes irritating. There's less impact resistance. And you also have a greatly reduced sensation of your accuracy of performing work in coaches that have people trained the first first day of practice, they come in the second day of practice, and they think, wow, yeah, they're all sore, but they start the practice and you can be fooled into thinking that you're doing much better. The second day when your your performance is horribly worse, you do have a warped perception of the work that you're able to do. Also, the current thinking is that the Dom's or the delayed onset muscle soreness is not essential to strength improvements or muscular development. It's not, that's the current thinking the current sports medicine thinking is one that you don't need soreness. Yes, that is the current thinking, do you agree with it? No.

Adam 16:40

Do you think soreness is important? Well, you think you should be getting sore after every workout,

Robert 16:45

I think that it may not be essential. I think that to some degree. If I go back to the cervical rotation test, I had an intensity of work that had not been experienced before. And that created a very sharp response. So the stimulus elicited something different, that's something certainly changed. And something certainly turned. In my opinion, when the stimulus does induce the muscle soreness, I think that the response is greater.

Adam 17:22

So when I work out regularly, or a lot when a lot of people workout regularly, they get sore at the beginning, because like you said, they're not used to it, yet. It's a new stimulus for them. But then eventually, people doing the same exercises don't get as sore anymore, are you saying they're either not working out hard enough, going forward, the stimulus wasn't enough. Or maybe they needed to wait longer, because I also noticed that I get sore. If I if I wait a couple of weeks before my next workout, then I'll get sore again.

Robert 17:54

Well, that could be in the early days of Nautilus, what we had done is we used to tell people, if you have a great deal of muscle soreness the next day, if you if you wake up with a great deal of muscle soreness, come back in we'll help you with it. Of course, we didn't tell them what we were going to do. But what we did was we train them exactly the same way. And the muscle soreness would abate to a great degree. But modifying the placement of exercises can change the stimulus adequately to produce muscle soreness nearly every time.

Adam 18:25

So that's what he's suggesting, suggesting a lot of variability to create soreness on not

Robert 18:29

necessary not necessarily because the the thinking with most trainers, the most popular thinking is to change the routine all the time to keep the muscles in quotes guessing. But what that does by changing the exercises and switching everything off, causes what's in Nautilus speak, we always refer to as the motor learning Mirage, what you're getting is you're getting a great deal of muscle soreness every single time. And that's only because your body is so much trying to do the motor learning to learn the exercise because it's not good at it yet, the thing is to do the same exercises and elicit the muscle soreness, you definitely don't get the same muscle soreness with regular training with regular clockwork, every single week. training that you get after a layoff of a month, or six or seven weeks. But some muscle soreness is in my opinion is an indication that you've turned a key. And there are other ways to do it. Then by changing the exercises, how to change the order of the exercise you give priority to the exercises that came at the end of your session. And you place them at the beginning of the session.

Adam 19:50

And that's enough to create soreness sometimes. I mean, but well this is this is the enigma. I mean just by changing the order you're getting more sore and in your opinion because you got to little sore because you change the order, you got a better stimulus and therefore your muscle is going to continue to get stronger. Otherwise, if you're not getting sore from workout to workout now I know it's not the debilitating soreness that you're talking about from a negative only training back in the 80s. But you're talking about some degree of soreness is an indication of a workout that was stimulus enough for progress. That's my opinion. And just changing the order is enough to well, just doesn't make sense to me, Well, why all of a sudden now, because you change the order, you get a little more sore well

Robert 20:35

before often because when overhead press comes at the end of the exercise, every time the overhead press is coping with a full body fatigue, that it doesn't have, if you started with it, when an exercise becomes stale, or what they call a plateau, you give it priority. Sometimes priority means you leave it out. Sometimes the priority means change the change the order you change what came before it,

Adam 21:06

and that causes the soreness. But why?

Robert 21:09

Well, well, it can. So it's sometimes it also depends on the exercise that came before it.

Adam 21:16

Right? That makes sense. But it surprises me that that's all you need to do to make it No,

Robert 21:21

it's not all you need to do. There inroad techniques that you can use. Changing the order doesn't always mean taking something from the end and putting at the beginning. Sometimes changing the order means instead of training your triceps right after chest, put the triceps right before the chest and then deny the chest. Any help from the triceps. Sometimes that's the inroad technique that you have to do. And I use that fairly often. Triceps up front, when you deny

Adam 21:54

leg extension before leg press, which is usually done the other way around. Have you don't like that? You're shaking your head.

Robert 22:03

Well see, this

Adam 22:04

is what my

Robert 22:05

in my in my opinion, I have never had and I don't do this I do I do knee extension or leg press? I don't do them both.

Adam 22:15

What if you're trying to get the quad sore? Well, and they're not getting sore just from the leg press?

Robert 22:18

Well, they're still techniques that you can use. You can use their butt. Well, just to get them sore. Oh, yeah, that that that will do it. That will do it. But that may not the point. I mean that might cater? Well, it might also be

Adam 22:31

I mean, let me back up for a second, just to make sure we understand the premise here. In your opinion, you need to have some degree of soreness after each workout to know that your workout is being

Robert 22:41

effective. Well, yes, to some degree, I think you need to have some soreness, I think it's an indication of a switch. I think if you don't have the muscle soreness, you may be exercising too often.

Adam 22:55

So then I say to you, okay, great, then let's every once in a while, why don't we do like extension, or I know you're correcting already in your brain knee extension, excuse me. Let's do knee extension before we go into leg press. And you say to me, Oh, I'm like, wait a second, you just told me that change things up to make it sore? Now you're saying you know, I really find that idea?

Robert 23:17

Well, you can make the knee extension harder, you can make the leg press harder, and you can change their order altogether. So depending on what comes before it, but there, there's still other,

Adam 23:28

why don't you like doing the extension before before leg press? What's your problem with it? Well, I

Robert 23:32

think it's a lot to recover from. And I probably have a biased in favor of my own experience. I don't I can't recover from both. I can't recover from doing chest and shoulders in the same session. I so I don't do that. But I was thinking in a different direction with knee extension and leg press. And the reason I'm thinking in a different direction is because I've done it tons. I've done it a lot, you know, especially early on, I don't do it anymore. But I've never noticed whether I do knee extension first or leg press first. I have never noticed any change in the strength of either one. Neither one to me fatigues the other. So if I can get 300 pounds on knee extension fresh, I can do that same 300 pounds after doing leg press to failure I've never noticed one affecting the other to weaken the other to any great degree. So I'm thinking in terms of inroads, so you know, from the standpoint of producing soreness, yeah, you will produce soreness by doing that. And maybe it represents overwork. I mean, maybe it didn't for me when I was in my 20s and 30s. But now it's different and I don't do that much on the thighs. It's It's one or the other.

Adam 24:49

So soreness is good, but not too much soreness.

Robert 24:51

I think that that's fair. And we're training the body all at once, and we're resting the body all at once. Once the the onus of change is in resting the body all at once.

Adam 25:06

I have another question, Robert. Why is this? This has been bothering me for a long time? How come? It seems anyway, you might have an answer for this. You always, usually do. But it seems to me that certain muscles get more sore than other muscles. Let me give an example. I think that the inner thighs get really sore. The calves get really sore. The hamstrings, get really sore. Triceps get really sore on the other side of the coin. Quads tough to get sore, lats tough to get so they get so don't get me wrong, they get sore, but not to the degree as those other muscles do when you work them out, biceps tough to get sore. Do you have any idea why some muscles get more sore than other muscles? Or am I just imagining that? Or is it because I don't know. I mean, to me, it doesn't make sense because I work out hard. And I work out consistently hard. Not just from workout to workout. But I work out consistently hard from exercise to exercise. I don't hold back on my chest press or my bicep curl and go all out on my calf raise or you know, I mean? So why would if I'm working out at the same level of intensity for each of my muscle groups for each of my workouts? Why do some muscles get more sore than other? Well, that

Robert 26:32

that's one of the enigmas. I almost can't get my shoulders sore. I can always get my trapezius sore. A lot of things get my trapezius sore.

Adam 26:46

Yeah, sleeping gets my trapezius. Yeah, and

Robert 26:49

but my deltoids by themselves, very rare, very rare. My sore in the deltoids almost everything else I have. So why can get really sore? There are some people. And there's some people who get very, very little soreness and you can beat on them. And you can Yes, the other thing, but they're getting stronger and and they do it may be what you can perceive. It may be something so individual. But you know these are these are the enigmas. And that's why there are so many theories. And you know, years ago, it used to be the science, you know, science was all all a Twitter when they discovered, you know, lactic acid and lactic acid became the answer to almost everything in muscle physiology. And as we learned now, as we know now lactic acid has really very little to do with a lot of the phenomenon that happens in the muscle from the including muscle soreness, including muscle soreness,

Adam 27:48

so it's not lactic acid. And then notice our study I love when massage therapists say they have to massage out to lactic acid. That's what that's what massage does. Well, there

Robert 27:57

is some time well, you want to talk about enigmas. Massage is something that obeys no biological principles. And it obviously works. It obviously changes things, it obviously creates the organic change to the body. And nobody knows what it is used to be a blood flow is nobody, nobody is suffering from low blood flow. If you have bad blood flowing your feet if the foot dies and falls off. It's not about blood flow. It's not maybe it's I've heard people say it's about moving lymph around maybe that maybe it is I don't know. But there's scarcely any way to test it. I wouldn't know what instrument to use to test it. I mean, you know, a toaster who who knows what you would have to use to test these things. But that's another enigma.

Adam 28:46

Alright. So with all these enigmas, with all these unknowns, and how are you so sure are confident that we need to get sore from workout to workout to some degree and why do you tell the client that you can't get sore yet they're getting stronger doesn't. I mean, like Richard Fineman, the physicist said, if there's an exception in science, if there's an exception to the rule, the rule is wrong. So your rule is soreness is important for progression, yet there are people that get stronger and progress without soreness.

Robert 29:12

Well, there was somebody else I knew who used to say the exception proves the rule

Adam 29:16

proves the rule. And so how does how does somebody who doesn't get sorry, yet progresses prove the rule that soreness is important?

Robert 29:22

Well, if we're talking about a maximal exercise effect from a minimal amount of stimulation, I think that muscle soreness is a good indicator,

Adam 29:35

but not the only one. It's a indicator, so you'd call it a marker. It's kind of like the marker of, I don't know, high cholesterol, but there are no other markers. So high cholesterol can be a marker for heart disease, but doesn't necessarily have to be one as an analogy, so you said fair soreness is a marker for progression and in necessary for progression but not necessarily The only marker. That's fair. So what do you say to your client that's not getting sore? Because I get that I, you know, I get there all time. You know what I say? Well, Sorensen Enigma, and, you know, as long as you're progressing, you know, you're one of those people that don't get sore. But should I always be trying to get them sore by, you know, you made me think about changing workout, just to get somebody sorry, well thought of that before? Well, when I say change, and workout, just, you know, not going crazy and doing all these crazy, you know, plyometrics circus tricks to get people sore? Well, that'll

Robert 30:31

get you sore. from a different standpoint, that's macro trauma. Okay, it manifests itself, it also includes micro trauma, what I'm talking about is, but what we do doesn't produce generally a great deal of soreness. It's not like negative training, which is safe when it's done well. But it's not, it's not usually done safely. What we do doesn't produce enormous muscle soreness, mainly because there isn't any impact. There is very little artifact from acceleration. And there are no sudden stops and no sudden starts. And so you eliminate a lot of the sources of matter, macro trauma. And that's not good. Macro trauma is not, but you're going to have micro trauma from sliding filaments against one another with very hard contractions. Now, how hard do people contract their muscles, we've got a knee extension inside that as a full range knee extension, most knee extensions aren't. Nearly every single person I put in that machine who's got experience here does not extend the knee completely. That machine is made to be used for a full range, right up to zero degrees, it's 126 degrees range. It's made to go from whatever the stretch is. And most people can make 126 degrees. Almost everybody can make 110. And it's made to be used to be pulled into zero degrees. That's what the knee locked and straightened against a perpendicular resistance. And what's the point? The point is that are people really contracting their muscles adequately. It's the intensity of muscular contraction that causes the micro trauma.

Adam 32:26

So for the clients that aren't getting to full extension, you're saying lower the weight and get into full extension. So even lower weight, but full extension is you'll probably get sore versus not going into full contraction. Yeah, well, you say yeah,

Robert 32:39

and other knee extensions that haven't been modified the way hours is modified, it is impossible to get into that fully contracted position. Now on

Adam 32:49

our machines, aren't the extension machines thing with that for a second? I might be digressing a little bit. But so what are our machines get lighter at the top. So the strength curve, though some of them do, I always do the informed fitness, our knee extension machines get lighter as you go into full extension. That's because the quadricep is much weaker, not full position that so therefore the machine gets lighter, and it doesn't put any strain on the joint when you get into that position. So we have a special machine that allows us to do that. Some people can't get into that full position, regardless of the fact that it gets lighter. You're saying let's Let's lighten a weight, get him into a full extended position, because that's what's gonna lead to the soreness because now you're getting the muscle into full contraction. But there are some people that feel that it's not good for the need, go into that full extension and try to avoid it. Even with the fall off, weight fall off resistance fall off as you get to the top end of the extension. So what would you say the people that worry about going into full extension,

Robert 33:49

they're wrong about it, and they're ignorant about exercise they're ignorant about, about the mechanics. They're ignorant, in part because they don't know any other engineering. They only they've only seen or they only know or they only build the machines that are dangerous in that position. But that's not what we have here. We have a machine that tracks the muscle and joint function. Okay, so if the knee can straighten, it's made to straighten. And if it straightens because the muscles are fully contracted, or are at their fullest point of contraction, they can be loaded in that position. Now they can't be loaded with a 100 pounds that you start with. But it can take the seven where the resistance falls away. But the thing is that most equipment manufacturers don't make any distinction between weight and resistance. They know wait. They don't understand resistance.

Adam 34:49

Yes, resistance is a function of weight. So when you're lifting a weight, the weight changes through the range of motion because of levers and army conics. So is that what you're referring to?

Robert 35:03

That's that's part of it. What's the other part? Well, the other part is the physiology. If the engineering is in accordance with the function of the muscles, and the function of the joints, the joints to rather than trying to make the muscle and joint system, match a machine that was manufactured, maybe haphazardly or maybe with other intentions,

Adam 35:29

yeah, machines get a bad rap for a good reason. And some, unfortunately, we get lumped into that same category, because we have machines, but our machines have been altered to change those problems of commercial equipment. Oh, that'll

Robert 35:43

that'll, that'll be another podcast. Man, we

Adam 35:45

can do another podcast on that. All right, getting back to soreness. So full contraction of the muscle. So getting back to this knee extension, that we assume has the right strength curves in our place anyway, if somebody can't get into full extension, lower the weight, allowing them going into full extension, and that is what is more important.

Robert 36:05

Sometimes it's lowering the weight. And sometimes it's proper teaching. Sometimes it has to do with having the person learn the exercise, most people don't learn the exercise correctly, there are handles on that machine that have to be used. If you don't use those handles what will happen out of the 72 degrees range, you've got a perfect fulcrum where the leg becomes a lever, the leg becomes a seesaw. And the resistance on the ankle starts picking the hip up. If you don't pull your hips down into the seat, and this is where the trainee has to be a part of it has to be a part of the whole system. If that hip comes up, the knees never going to extend, it'll never straighten it will never ever straighten. Because that resistance is going to be forever picking the hip up, preventing the knee from extending, the hips have to be fixed, the handles have to be taught to the trainee how to use the handles to pull the hips down into the seat. The seat belt barely helps pass the second repetition. First two repetitions shouldn't complete either, because you won't get very much fatigue at all, if you if you complete the first two repetitions because it gets so light at the top. Well, because it falls away by the third repetition that ought to be your first full range repetition because what you've got is you've got adequate fatigue for the strength curve in the machine to match the strength curve of the muscles that have been pre fatigued through the shorter ranges.

Adam 37:43

Okay, so we're getting into weeds about all this cool equipment. But well, we

Robert 37:47

know we could do two of these just on knee extension. Yeah. But

Adam 37:50

again, I want to stay to the point which is part of getting sore. If you're not finding yourself getting sore, one of the reasons you might not be getting sore is because you're not going into full range exercise, you're not doing the full answer, they may

Robert 38:02

not be going may or may not be achieving full rein and there there may be some there may be more than one or two reasons for that. But people get sore through partial range exercise. Also, you know, we were using the quadriceps as an example. But you know, all of those things are specific to quadriceps.

Adam 38:21

I have another question. Now, Rob. I know muscle soreness is important. It's a great indicator of progression and exercise and adequate workout. Should you be trying to relieve yourself of that soreness and if you feel it's okay to relieve yourself of that soreness, how would you go about doing it? But first? It can you relieve yourself of that soreness.

Robert 38:41

All right. No, it's not important or essential to reduce the muscle soreness just let it run its course but certain things can mitigate and make it not so intense one that's real important is sleep that you enter your exercise session. Well rested eight to 10 hours a day. Go to sleep long before midnight, every minute you sleep before midnight is worth about three minutes of sleep after midnight. So well rested entering the exercise session and well rested the night after the exercise session which is not usually so much of a problem. The other one is hydration when I have somebody a new trainee one of the things I tell them before they're in the 24 hours before they come in to drink a gallon of water. I usually say I have I have a weird request for you could you drink a gallon of ice cold water if you can in the 24 hours before we meet and they say oh I can't drink that much water so try to come close just drink a lot of water before exercise and after exercise a large amount of water and plenty of water in between. I just never stopped anybody from drinking water in between sometimes job to get people to drink water. Another thing that seems to be helpful to some degree a small degree for at least a few hours are contrast baths. If you turn the shower on at first Hadas, you can stand it for as long as you can stand it on your muscles, and then switch over to three minutes, maybe you could stand, then switch over to as cold as you can stand it for another two, three minutes, and then go back to the hot. The contrast tends to move hydration and nutrition into and out of the muscles and tends to help to reduce the inflammation because a great deal of the muscle soreness is inflammatory, it's an inflammatory response. And also because of the hot and the cold, you've got a constriction and expansion of the blood vessels. And the other thing is to be well nourished. Nutrition is of course, a large part of muscle repair. In the later days after exercise, you know, once the muscle soreness is mitigated, really the principal repair job is is nutrition.

Adam 41:12

Fantastic. That's good advice. You know, I don't know if I ever followed any of that. Well, I'm always hydrated. And I tend to get pretty good sleep. I never thought about the contrast baths to get rid of soreness. I mean, I kind of like being sore anyway. So you never know we all love it. I never thought about oh, we all love it and live for it. What about coaches and trainers who say that you have to change your routine. Often, in order to achieve soreness,

Robert 41:35

they're making mistake of the motor learning Mirage, there have to be 100 triceps exercises. If you keep changing it every single time you never you'll remain stale. You may get sore, you may have some soreness, but what ends up happening is all you're doing is you're learning a new exercise every single time. And so all of the responses are just just like a first

Adam 42:02

a good thing, though. I mean, you're getting sore. Is that the bottom line? I mean, if you're getting sore, you're getting r&g Insurance ensure that

Robert 42:08

you're getting stronger. These are the enigmas that we live with.

Adam 42:11

So you don't know. So maybe, maybe they're right, maybe we should be mixing it up so much, even if it's because of motor learning, as long as we're getting sore.

Robert 42:19

Well, I don't know.

Adam 42:22

I mean, maybe we should be changing the workout a lot and doing all kinds of different workouts. Well, you know, philosophy is not to do that. Ken Hutchins wrote a whole chapter on it on the non variation of exercise, the importance of not

Robert 42:36

a lot of the a lot of people have Arthur and and Joe Molen, and l Darden, but it may come about as an adequately different stimulus when you prioritize exercises, and rather than allow things to to remain in the same order.

Adam 42:56

I mean, I tend, I tend to think of the like you said, there are a lot of exercises for triceps. Some are less efficient than others, and some are more have more strain on the elbows and shoulders and others. So I just avoid those and stick with the ones that pick biomechanically, you know, safer for the joint.

Robert 43:13

Well, that's the reason why we use the exercises that we use, because even though there are hundreds of exercises for the triceps, there's only going to be two or three really, really good ones that fulfill the job without without either causing harm, or to the joint. Yeah, you got muscles and joints, things under strain or cause a problem elsewhere. And so that's why we have used or we we've been using, what is the very best exercise to get the job done? Why Why bother with something that may not be as efficient as the leg press that we choose to use or as efficient as the the chest press that we choose to use? What Why Why use one that is a completely different kind of a movement. It'll it may make you sore, but it could also end you could also get injured?

Adam 44:15

Well, that's that's for me. That's a determinant. I mean, that's why I'm not trying to vary an exercise a million different ways, because a lot of them are just not very biomechanically safe.

Robert 44:27

I've used the the calf press on the multi exerciser. Pretty much my whole life. I can remember a handful of times that I wasn't sore and my calf

Adam 44:40

and well that's what I was saying about calf muscles. I always get sore during that and

Robert 44:44

I can remember a day in the in the 11th grade when I couldn't walk up the stairs in school. And I got in a lot of trouble because I missed a couple of classes because I couldn't get myself up. I'd never had soreness like that again. That's funny,

Adam 45:01

I just tried have a dream like that once in a while I have a recurring dream, where I where I can't walk. It's really funny, you should say that you just made me think of that dream. Or we got to wrap this up because again, we can talk all day and we will we're going to do some more episodes. Alright, so what about massage and stretching, and the vibration technology out there, as many physical therapists recommend to help reduce muscle soreness.

Robert 45:25

All three of those things, reduce muscle soreness for five or 10 minutes, they're very, very, it's very temporary relief. Within within 510 minutes, you're just as achy as you were before you engage in the massage vibration. So it's just temporary. So very, very temporary, moment momentary.

Adam 45:47

So it says billable hours then in other words, it's just that's why they do it. billable hours.

Robert 45:52

I've heard that term.

Adam 45:54

Alright, there you have it, folks, muscle soreness, all the weird things about it. All the enigmas mystery about it. I'm not sure what we did today kind of clears up any of those mysteries, but, but at least we brought them to light, I tend to agree overall, I tend to agree that you should feel your work out, you know, a couple of days later, you should feel like you did something, which is the bottom line doesn't have to be debilitating crazy soreness, where you can't walk up a flight of stairs like Robert just mentioned, you should feel like you worked out. You know, maybe when you get out of a chair you're feeling and your hamstrings, your glutes. Or when you're reaching up above your head and you're pulling something down, you feel it for a second, like, Oh, look at that, yeah, I feel that. Those have to be crazy soreness. But if you're not really feeling your workout and some type of soreness, think about your routine. Talk to us. Ask us train with us. And we'll work we'll work with you to try to see if we can play around with the routines to get you to that level. Robert, thank you very much for spending the time with me.

Robert 47:01

Oh, please, what a thank you for having me.

Adam 47:03

Okay. And before I forget, it can be very useful to call us up and do even a virtual workout with us, even though you're maybe in Australia, or wherever you are in the world. As long as you speak English. I can help you we can help you. And again, you know, lots of times you talk about the biomechanics and doing exercise correctly, what Robert and I were talking about with a knee extension and might some of this might have gone over your head because it gets a little technical and we didn't get into it specifically. But these things matter. So keep that in mind. As you work out to give us a call, even if it's one or two routines, doesn't have to be a regular thing. You can get a lot out of just even working with working with us a couple of times given whatever machines or tools you have available to you. Alright, thanks a lot for listening and we'll see you next time. You go in for fitness.com Get all the details. We have an email address. It's a podcast at informed fitness.com Thanks for listening.

Arlene 48:08

This has been the Inform Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman. for over 20 years informed fitness has been providing clients of all ages with customized personal training designed to build strength fast. Visit Inform fitness.com for testimonials, blogs and videos on the three pillars, exercise, nutrition and recovery

View Details

Shayla McGrady, GM and personal trainer, at InForm Fitness, has been training people virtually long before the Covid-19 pandemic made it popular. And she was kind enough to take time out of her busy schedule to share her experience and expertise with us.

We discuss the three most challenging aspects of virtual training:

Technology issues – is the fear of using technology for the not-so-tech-savvy warranted?
Equipment issues – Is a workout with no equipment possible, particularly if you have orthopedic issues that limit mobility?
Intensity- is it possible to workout hard enough with limited or no equipment?

We also cover the type of routines that can meet the challenges and with links to several videos. It is important to understand that without access to well-designed machines that solve many safety and efficiency issues, it becomes super important to work with a trainer that knows how to properly use conventional, free-weights and exercise bands. We discuss some simple and subtle changes to commonly used movements that are more protective of your joints.

Here's a glimpse of Virtual Training w/ Shayla... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAohKOwsAdA&feature=youtu.be

As always, your feedback and suggestions are always welcome.

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

We would love to hear from you with your questions, comments & show ideas…

Our email address is podcast@informfitness.com

Inform_McGrady Ep 68 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

workouts, shayla, equipment, people, virtual, exercise, wall, fitness, great, virtually, lateral raise, clients, stand, training, podcast, trainers, gym, intensity, distancing, challenges

Arlene 00:01

The Inform Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman and co host Mike Rogers is a presentation of informed fitness studios, a small family of personal training facilities specializing in safe, efficient high intensity strength training. On our BI monthly podcast, Adam and Mike discuss the latest findings in the areas of exercise nutrition and recovery with leading experts and scientists, we aim to debunk the popular misconceptions in the urban myths that are so prevalent in the fields of health and fitness, and to replace those sacred cows with scientific base. up to the minute information on a variety of subjects will cover exercise protocols and techniques, nutrition, sleep recovery, the role of genetics in the response to exercise, and much more. In this episode, Adam welcomes Shayla McGrady GM and personal trainer at Inform Fitness. Shayla has been training people virtually long before the COVID 19 pandemic made it popular they'll discuss the three most challenging aspects of virtual training, technology, equipment and intensity.

Shayla 01:18

We understand that everyone is different. So what will be intense for one person may not be for another we know how to adjust that accordingly. That is what is important about us and how we work with our time.

Adam 01:33

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Inform fitness podcast. This is Adam Zickerman I'm here today with a special friend and guest Shayla McGrady Shayla has been a trainer in foreign fitness now for five years. And she runs the Port Washington location on Long Island. She's fantastic. Great personality one of the most authentic people I know. Welcome to the show Shayla.

Shayla 01:57

Hi, Adam, thank you so much for having me.

Adam 01:59

Let me just read off your credentials here. Shayla has earned her master's in Human Service Administration and her bachelor's degree in psychology from SUNY Buffalo up in upstate New York. She is a certified personal trainer by the National Academy of Sports Medicine. And she has the of course the power of 10 certification from me. Shayla jumped from another career right into personal training. She took the plunge joining in foreign fitness five years ago. She resigned from a full time career as a what what was your What were you doing?

Shayla 02:33

I was the Director of Residence Life at SUNY Downstate.

Adam 02:38

That's certainly downstate and is now enjoying her position as general manager in poor Washington Long Island. Shayla truly, truly understands the pressure society places on men and women when it comes to body image. And she once upon a time for to keep up with those demands. She now places an even greater emphasis on the importance of health lifestyle, both for herself and all that she meets. Like I said before, she's probably one of the most authentic people I know. So what you see is what you get with Shayla. And we're going to talk about something that's kind of relevant today. Given the COVID 19 pandemic and shutdowns and how it's changed the fitness world turned it pretty much upside down on its head. And we've been doing these virtual workouts and it's been for me it's been about eight weeks give or take but for Shayla and reason I wanted her on the show to talk about this, because she's been doing a lot longer than that she's been, you can say she's one of the pioneers in this virtual workout stuff. And training people virtually. So it's great to get her insights on this stuff. We're going to be talking about the challenges of virtual workouts are you going to get same workout as you would get using machines? Alright, Shayla virtual training, it's been a journey, you know, it's been a real learning experience for me, training people virtually. And I like it. I don't like it, to be honest with you. There are challenges, right? There are lots of challenges. Let's talk about those challenges. First of all, I don't wanna I don't wanna make it sound like I'm already kind of Debbie downer, right? Just put, I just said like, I actually love it in the sense that it enables us to do we have a lot of flexibility with this, and you are getting good workouts, but there are challenges, particularly with people that don't have any equipment. So that's one of the things so when we try to convert our clients to, to working out virtually when the shutdowns occurred, people very skeptical because he said, I don't have any equipment. And the other thing is I want to talk about specifically, are older people that don't have equipment, so they have their own set of challenges. Number one, being older having the arthritis and all the irises and not having equipment. So let's talk about how do you meet those challenges and how can you assure somebody that it's okay.

Shayla 04:55

Well, you're absolutely correct. Those are The challenges a lot of people face old and young, I wouldn't even say it is specific only to the elderly. But my way of encouraging clients who are skeptical, or who are nervous about how this works, and it will work well is by explaining it to them. So first equipment, right, all that they need is a telephone, a cell phone, an iPad or computer, they do not need a lot of appliances, they do not need a lot of equipment to do to make this work.

Adam 05:44

So they don't need like a mixing board. Like I

Shayla 05:48

don't need a fridge, no.

Adam 05:53

Headphones per se,

Shayla 05:54

you don't need headphones per se down. Especially if you're in you're at home, you're not on out on the beach, the waves. So keeping it very simple in regards to equipment and letting them know that it does not require a lot.

Adam 06:09

And you don't need to be a millennial or younger. As far as understanding the technology. It's technology is pretty easy. We're using Facebook or or zoom,

Shayla 06:18

we're using FaceTime or zoom. This book. That's okay, or Skype. So Skype, Facetime, zoom, I guess Facebook could work in some ways. Those are the three main devices on

Adam 06:32

Zoom. And what's the third? Skype? Oh, Skype, of course. Okay. So if you have any skepticism regarding equipment, get over it. There's not a lot of equipment. from a technology standpoint, that should not be a barrier to entry to join virtual workouts. If you own a cell phone, an up to date cell phone, more or less, you have access to virtual training, I would say that, and I mentioned this in the past on another pocket, I don't know if I did it on our podcast or as a guest on somebody else's anyway, a tripod, a little mini tripod for your cell phone, because you end up trying to balance it on something to get the right angle, because that's that's, I guess the next challenge, I want to talk to you about setting it up like so they see you like you said it's not a mirror, I think.

Shayla 07:17

Right? Right, because people stand in front of it, and they want to see themselves and don't take into account that I need, we need to see them as the instructor. So honestly, when I tell people to set up their phone or their computer, I suggest that they place it lower, so that I'm able to see them from head to toe, I also suggest that they stand between six to eight feet away, the farther away you are, the more I'm able to see you entirely

Adam 07:49

and more depth for sure. And again, mini tripod works beautiful for that. I mean, it's literally like you can buy one on Amazon for 12 bucks. Or you can just stand it up low on the ground and you can put it in angle you need and you're not balancing on a wall or a book or whatever, right? It doesn't slip and fall off. Because a lot of times not enough friction below it to kind of keep it up, you know, so these little mini tripods are a great asset, especially when you're just using a phone. Now the other thing that's good is a laptop. Because you can you can tilt the laptop, you know, the top of the laptop up and down, you can put the laptop on the floor. And until that as you need it depending upon what you're doing, then we can see them perfectly.

Shayla 08:29

Absolutely.

Adam 08:30

The other challenge for older people, particularly older people is that they don't have any equipment. And you know, being where we are in New York City, a lot of our clients, New York City, they have small apartments and they don't want equipment collecting dust in their farm. And that's why they come to us in the first place. So how do you especially an older person, because you know, one of the reasons all the people gravitate in for fitness is because we have such great equipment and we don't exacerbate a lot of injuries and they can do things that they they would really have would have trouble doing with body weight or maybe they have a severe weakness. So you know, they can't really support themselves in a lot of ways. And the equipment kind of is just a great workaround for people that have arthritic issues, orthopedic issues, weight issues, quite honestly, weakness, issues, asymmetry, one side being, you know, weaker than the other equipment helps with that aspect to an extent. So how do you work around that without any equipment? Virtually?

Shayla 09:23

Great question. And that's the thing. There are no substitutions for the weights that we have at inform of course, but in regards to working out at home, without equipment, I trained many clients who do not have equipment, many clients who are of elderly age, and what I like to do is utilize furniture, so chairs, being able to do squats on a chair seated, coming up and down so that way you're using your proper form. Also, balancing on a chair so placing on the side of you while you're doing lunch. One foot behind the other, just to maintain that balance,

Adam 10:04

right, so you're doing the ones but you have the chair right there by your side. So you can just use your hands, this is a balance you as you, you hold that position, and you don't have to go that low, as long as either you can go down a little bit, a little bit goes a long way you've been that knee or your thighs kick in, you're right, your your glutes, your hamstrings, they kick in, you don't have to go into these deep knee bends. Right. And again, you can use that chair for balance, I'm sorry, cut into jack there.

Shayla 10:28

No, that's okay. That's that's a great key point, as well as the wall. So using the wall for stabilizing squats, just holding a squat against the wall. And some of the other things that I use for makeshift equipment, water gallons water bottles. I know you mentioned when we were talking of using recyclable bags and filling them with books, filling them with raw.

Adam 10:58

Yeah, I thought that because it becomes an adjustable dumbbell. Right, instead of switching off between a water jug which you know the handles of water and you buy a gallon of water, you know, I've used those, it has a small little handle, your fingers get all cramped up and cramped in there. And when you do curls, that kind of torques your wrist and torques your fingers, right. And you know, it's not a greatest handle. So it occurred to me just to put the water jug into one of those small totes or recycle bags that you get at the supermarket. And now not only can you put that water jug in there, but now if you need more weight, you can add soup cans, like you said books. I never thought of books. That's a good idea. Because books, books have weight, you know, right textbooks, you know, I've kind of those laying around in my basement, you know? So that's great. Yeah. And you said using the wall, there you go. I mean, you can do a lot against the wall. What can you do again, like whatever exercise you're doing against the wall.

Shayla 11:52

So you can again, you can do chair squat or wall squats, you can squat against the wall, right? You can use what I do for gallon jugs, because they are oddly shaped. I'll have clients hold one gallon in both hands, and stand against the wall while they're doing bicep curls simultaneously. Curls. Also doing shoulder overhead shoulder press.

Adam 12:16

So you lean so you're doing overhead press using the wall? Correct some for some clients,

Shayla 12:20

and why is it stabilizing them and firing up those quads? Well, they're against the wall, quads, hamstrings,

Adam 12:32

quad shoulder press doing shoulder press against the wall. That's what I was asking about.

Shayla 12:36

But I'll have them if I want to intensify it, I'll have them in a squat against the wall, right holding it and doing shoulder. Because otherwise they can just do it in the chair?

Adam 12:45

No, well, you bring up a good point, part of the challenge I found with virtual training, and not having a lot of equipment is getting the intensity we need. We've, you know, my whole show, over the last three years has been about high intensity training, right? And understanding that and here we are doing the virtual workouts, we still have to maintain that that's the key always to maintain that intensity when you have no equipment. And you have somebody that can't do a bodyweight exercise on the floor or something like that the wall becomes a huge asset, and allows that person to get intense. Yeah, push ups, push ups from the knees, if you can't, obviously can't do it from the toes or against

Shayla 13:23

the wall doing push ups also. So for some of the other clients standing and slowly doing push ups against the wall,

Adam 13:30

or push ups Exactly. Those are not nearly as intense as doing on the floor.

Shayla 13:36

But once you get into that holding, right, it intensifies it a little bit more

Adam 13:41

right to static hold. Yeah, so that means you hold a position, because some people have joint issues and they can't go through the range of motion anyway. Right. And if you're weak, it's tough to to do full range of motion sometimes like in a full pushup. That's why I use the wall that takes a lot of the force always these positions that you also you can't go that a full range of motion. So so having them hold a particular position, which is a difficult position and not moving through that position. I mean, there are trainers out there, there are protocols out there that just do what they call negative only, or static contractions as as a whole protocol to build strength without any movement whatsoever, because they feel it protects the joint. And it's not necessary to go through their range of motion. That's debatable. And it just gave me an idea to have some of those people on my podcast. Yeah. Because there are people that would debate that that they feel full range of motion exercises is better. And I actually know the person to have on my show, quite honestly for that. But if you can't go through full range of motion, you do get something out of these things. I mean, again, intensity is intensity, whether you're going through a full range of motion, or just holding a static hold against the wall until you're exhausted that's safe. You can you can work to exhaustion against the wall and as soon as you reach exhaustion, you just, you're still leaning against the wall. You're not going anywhere.

Shayla 14:58

And I think that's the important thing. about our program is we understand that everyone is different. So what will be intense for one person may not be for another, we know how to adjust that accordingly. You know, there are a lot of there are a lot of gyms or a lot of trainers that give me standard exercise across the board, and everyone is expected to do the same thing, and everyone is not able to do the same thing. So I think that is what is important about us and how we work with our clients.

Adam 15:33

Well, you know, a big difference is how we measure progress and success. And what you're saying is the conventional way has been always doing a certain number of reps and certain number of sets, regardless of the ability now just, they're arbitrary numbers, we're gauging intensity. And that's more nuanced than just, you know, do three sets of 10 of this weight. And when you're measuring intensity, you really do have to read the person and know what they're capable of, and know how to apply that safely. Now that gyms have been shut down, every Tom, Dick and Harry now have entered the virtual space of training. And that's how we're different, right? Absolutely, you know, safety first, always safety. First, there's positions like let's take the lateral raise, right, a classic exercise, raising your arms away from your sides, it works your shoulders, your deltoids to conventional as a standing deltoid, raise lateral raise. Now, I'm not going to get into all the biomechanics of that. But when you do it that way, you are putting very heavy load on the shoulder, at a very weak position of that shoulder when you're at the top. And that's what it always hurts at the top, if ever did this exercise, it's very difficult at the top is almost painful, and it doesn't hurt throughout the rest of the range of motion. When you get to that very top, it's a painful thing, and has nothing to do with you being weak or not has to do is that it's biomechanically a strain. Everyone's doing that exercise. And then people wake up one day say, Why do my shoulders hurt me, and they never think it's their exercise program. You know, which is ironic, because your exercise program should not be hurting you and I've talked about this a million times in the past, you lay to your side, instead of standing up, you lay to your side and do the lateral raise, you've just corrected that whole problem. As simple as that. And I would venture to guess that not one, maybe five out of 100 trainers might know that great. Five out of 100 trainers maybe know if maybe how even say less. And there's so many little things like that. So not all virtual workouts are created equal even those highfalutin high tech programs that are out there. You know, I see the promos on TV for these these virtual workouts, you can do all kinds of workouts. And you see the problems, you see the actual exercises that they're doing. They're very ballistic, very high impact they're doing I see that lateral raise done the way I described as standing up loud raises all the time. You know, it's a clap. Again, it's a classic exercise, and it's always demoed in the advertisements. It's fancy, and it's cool. And you have a workout in your house. And yeah, this is like Avatar training you possibly but it's all the same stuff. It's just packaged differently. Right? And it's what we've been working towards and against near, in my case, 23 years, you know, 10 years, and then fine with us. There's a lot of crap out there like, like every industry, I guess, doing these virtual workouts is even extra you need, you need extra expertise, because you don't have the luxury of a piece of equipment do the work for you. Right, you really have to know what you're doing when you're training somebody virtually, with the challenges that we've talked about. Do you think virtual workouts are here to stay now that this has happened?

Shayla 18:39

I do. I absolutely do. I think this is a sign of the times, definitely. And very telling as to how we are heading into the future.

Adam 18:51

We have clients that were doing an in person and then they started the virtuals because of the shutdowns and everything and then like saying, you know, let's keep it this way. Some of the pros, you know, in some cases, the pros outweigh the cons. I've had a couple,

Shayla 19:05

I have had some and and especially right now, I mean, it's still so fresh with a pandemic and a lot of people are are nervous and comfortable in this setting. But I think that there are going to be a lot of people a lot more people who will choose to go the virtual route than rushing to get back into a typical gym.

Adam 19:26

Yeah, well they want to be assured that the precautions are being taken at the locations right you know, I'm I'm in constant communication now when my landlords to make sure that the public areas in our building are going to be met with stringent attention, doing my research and what we're doing in our gyms. And they want to be reassured about that. Turns out that more science comes out about how you contract the virus. This particular one is through sustained exposure in unventilated space, without And that is how it's being transmitted. There's very little evidence, for example, that's being transmitted from surfaces, the reports have been showing outdoors, but sustained. And a big point is sustained exposure, right? If you were in contact with somebody that actually has it and not coughing on you, and then wearing a mask, and you're only with him for 10 minutes, in a well ventilated place, the risk is extremely low. Right. And knowing that, and knowing that we're going to open up soon, we've taken those precautions. So the places are gonna be well ventilated, we're gonna have air filters, everyone's gonna be wearing masks, there's going to be physical distancing. By the way, I'm using that term physical distancing. Now, not social distancing. I learned that because somebody else said this. Because, you know, social distancing is kind of, well, we need social more than ever, now, is the point. And we shouldn't be distancing ourselves socially, we should be distancing ourselves physically, we should be getting, we should be getting closer, socially, if anything else, especially in this time, and we have a lot going on, as we record this podcast, it's during the protests, the police brutality and the crazy times we're living in, but so that's that's how we're going to take the little precautions were taking, you know, limiting the number of people working out at the same time, well ventilated, and wearing masks, and the rest is gonna be drastically reduced that way.

Shayla 21:30

And I think for us, we people are going to come back, I don't think there's going to be as much of a hesitation to come back to our facilities, just because we're so different. Right? We are vastly different from we're not considered a gym, we're vastly different from that. So I don't think that we are going to pose as much of a hesitation complex. I think, though, reaching people who cannot easily get to information, people all over who are listening to this virtually is what is going to be heightened for us.

Adam 22:11

I agree. Thank you for bringing that up. I've been bringing it up on our podcast last couple episodes talking about how this opens up the door. I never thought about inviting people to call us for virtual workouts or world because the whole reason I opened up in forum fitness is because of the the equipment and the attention and the detail that we pay attention to what you just can't get from virtual workout. So I kind of had this like this all or nothing thing about that. Yeah, I had this block about that. So I never thought of actually offering this workout virtually because you don't have our access to everything that we have. But then I'm realizing since doing those virtuals, that we're still doing it so much better and differently than everyone else would do a virtual and we just talked about that. So yeah, for you listening that don't have access to a gym, I'm telling you do a workout with regular weights with no weights, you won't believe how different it is compared to Tom, Dick or Harry putting you through it that that just went virtual. There's a lot to this. And there's a reason why our equipment does what it does. Because we spent so many years not having that equipment, no, and we saw the problems. You know, and we know how to we knew how to kind of overcome the problems. So we know what the problems are to deal with when we're training you virtually. And that makes a big difference in the quality and the efficiency and the safety of the workout. And again, it's also efficiency, getting your heart rate up in and of itself is not is not the point it's fatiguing the muscles deeply, and you're not going to have the same. Alright, listen, you workout in form fitness. It's like flying in a private jet. You know, if you're invited to ever fly on a private jet, take it. Take the invitation, I don't care where you're going, you can even be Cleveland you know. And once you try that, and then you have to take your next flight and coach, it's like oh my god, you know, but Coach still gets you there, right. And the Virgin workouts even better than codes were like more like business class or virtual workouts because we know what we're doing. So you learn so much the principles of why we do and how we do what we do really bear themselves out. When you're doing something virtually you don't have all this fancy equipment, doing all that work for you. You know, so you really learn something about well, just that lateral raise example, perfect example of a simple tweak that you do to to conventional exercise that makes all the difference in the world. We're going to post that one. We're going to we're going to do a video linking that. We're also going to put a video linking some of the things you brought up before like a squat a wall squat. Alright, and we'll do one with a chair bouncing on the chair. Made me what we're gonna do. She'll it please tell me if you can do this with me. We'll do a We're going to do a video of a workout that an older person can do a full body workout that an older person can do that have issues that that definitely get something out of it. Can we do something like that? Absolutely. Alright, so we have by the time you're hearing this, it's, it's already linked to our podcast. Okay. Alright, so go to it. Well, thanks a lot. This was great. I appreciate you helping me out with this.

Shayla 25:22

No problem. Thank you for having me.

Arlene 25:25

This has been the Inform Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman. for over 20 years informed fitness has been providing clients of all ages with customized personal training designed to build strength fast. Visit InformFitness.com for testimonials, blogs and videos on the three pillars, exercise, nutrition and recovery

View Details

Simply put, Thermography measures the temperature of a particular area of the body using a high-resolution, infrared camera, and is able to pinpoint “hot spots” without the use of radiation

When you have chronic inflammation, your body's inflammatory response can eventually start damaging healthy cells, tissues, and organs. Over time, this can lead to DNA damage, tissue death, internal scarring and the development of several diseases, including, heart disease cancer.

Tammy eloquently explains:

What is thermography and how it works?
What is a thermography session like?
Who should get thermography?
Is thermography a substitute for mammography?
What is neoangiogenesis?
Who analyzes the thermography imagery?
Is thermography safe and how often should one get a scan?
Breast ‘hot spots’ and the surprising causes.

As always, your feedback and suggestions are always welcome.

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

We would love to hear from you with your questions, comments & show ideas…

Our email address is podcast@informfitness.com

Inform_Kohlschmidt Ep 67 Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS

thermography, body, test, inflammation, breast, disease, people, cancer, mammography, women, tammy, stagnation, health, bra, radiation, infection, doctor, demography, mammogram, adam

Arlene 00:01

The Inform Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman and co host Mike Rogers is a presentation of Inform Fitness studios, a small family of personal training facilities specializing in safe, efficient high intensity strength training. On our BI monthly podcast, Adam and Mike discuss the latest findings in the areas of exercise nutrition and recovery with leading experts and scientists, we aim to debunk the popular misconceptions in the urban myths that are so prevalent in the fields of health and fitness, and to replace those sacred cows with scientific base. up to the minute information on a variety of subjects will cover exercise protocols and techniques, nutrition, sleep recovery, the role of genetics in the response to exercise, and much more. On this episode, Adam welcomes Tammy Kohlschmidt, who explains how the use of thermography detects early inflammation throughout the body for seeing health problems years before symptoms may manifest.

Tammy 01:13

Here's what people really need to understand about thermography. It allows you to see what you cannot yet feel. It's the start of early disease detection, which will let you be preventative.

Adam 01:28

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Today is going to be a very interesting topic. Something I don't know very much about. It's called thermography. And today I have with us, Tammy Kohlschmidt. Hello, Tammy.

Tammy 01:40

Hi Adam. Thank you for having me.

Adam 01:43

Thank you. Welcome. Welcome. I just got to read a little bit about Tammy's CV if you will. Tammy is a well rounded practitioner and multiple healing disciplines. She's a Certified Clinical demographer, which is what we're going to be talking about today. She's also a licensed dental hygienist. She's a Certified BodyTalk Practitioner, which we'll delve into on another podcast if you come back if you want to come back. Tami believes that health and well being are a reflection of many different things including energy, spiritual healing, nutrition, anti inflammatory, staying anti inflamed. Tammy is a founding member of the American Academy of oral systemic health. She is a past member of dentistry for diabetics and centers of Dental Medicine. She's a current member of demography unlimited, and the American Academy of anti aging medicine. She is also co host of the national radio show on sustainable dentistry. She teaches and lectures on thermography and has been interviewed on the oral health summit with Jonathan Landsman. She is currently co hosting the show sustainable dentistry a better way with Dr. Reed Winnick, another friend of mine client, who is her colleague and business on the Manhattan cable channel. 57. So, Tammy, yes. tomography. Yes. What the hell is thermography? Well,

Tammy 03:05

before I open into that, I do want to give just some acknowledgement to you, Adam, because your ingenuity and what you do has been a godsend into my life. So thank you for that. You definitely disrupted the way that I see exercise and working out. So thank you. Kudos to you.

Adam 03:24

Thank you. Yeah. And I did not pay her to say that.

Tammy 03:27

No, no. And also, I do want to acknowledge your listeners, because if they're following you, then I have a feeling that they're also disruptors to anything mainstream. So

Adam 03:38

is tomography a disrupter? Is that your total

Tammy 03:41

Disrupt? Yes. So you asked what is demography? It's called Digital infrared thermal imaging, and it measures your body's temperature using an infrared camera. The reason this is important, is because we can screen for inflammation. And there's no other test out there that can really do that with a visual. Number one, your body temperature doesn't lie. It tells us everything we need to know. There's no pain, there's no radiation, there's no body contact, and it was approved for use in 1982 by the FDA. So it's not new. However, it's just not well known. And it's not used by mainstream medicine, mainly because it's not taught in universities.

Adam 04:30

So when you say it was approved by the FDA approved for walk for use in

Tammy 04:35

health screening, and in cancer detection for the breasts,

Adam 04:39

okay, and does it how exactly? Well,

Tammy 04:43

so Well, let me just kind of walk you through what an appointment would be like so that we get an idea of how it does. The patient comes in, it's a temperature controlled room at about 68 degrees, because the body has to acclimate to that cool temperature. So that Your true inflammation comes out. And not just all of your body heat, let's say from walking to the appointment, climbing stairs, things like that. So as the body acclimates to the temperature, you're actually in a gown. You're not wearing clothing, because we are

Adam 05:16

you say the room is 60 degrees 68. So you're freezing your ass. Oh,

Tammy 05:20

you're cold. Yeah. But we don't cool for too long. It's like a 10 minute cooldown. And then it's a dark room. So for those of you who are modest, it's cool. It's a very dark room. You take off your gown, and then we do images. It's like getting your picture taken. But again, there's no body contact. There's no pain, no radiation. It's very safe, non invasive. And you're naked

Adam 05:46

at this point you

Tammy 05:47

Yes.

Adam 05:50

Okay, cold Playboy shoot.

Tammy 05:53

I've had some really funny comments about that. But yeah, yeah, people who have a great sense of humor have lots to say when they're in the room. I bet. Yeah. And it's, it's fascinating, because you can see your body on the screen, you can see all the different colors that come up, we use the colors of the rainbow. So White is the hottest. So typically, where we see white, we're seeing heat, we're seeing inflammation, we're seeing stagnation. And then black is the coolest. So you'll see all colors between the rainbow reds, greens, orange. And they all mean something in relative to the other side of the body. So we're balancing and measuring symmetry. So the colors and the patterns that the colors make all mean something. And then it goes to our doctor, I use Dr. Greg Melvin. He's my reading doctor. And he generates a report.

Adam 06:46

He's an MD doctor.

Tammy 06:47

It can be MD, he's actually a chiropractor. He's a holistic chiropractor. He started reading thermal images, I think over 30 years ago. So he kind of was one of the, you know, Foundation front runners in it.

Adam 07:02

So you're a technician, so you don't read them.

Tammy 07:05

No, I'm a technician, I take the images. Then what happens is, after Dr. Melvin generates the report, I sit down with the patient, we go through it completely. So they understand everything about their body and what they're seeing. And we make recommendations when we get them on, basically, back on track to health.

Adam 07:27

And you can tell a lot from like you said, the colors represent different temperatures. Correct. So basically, you're reading throughout the body, what the temperatures are all over the place. Right? And if it's white, that would be probably a concern. If you saw a white section somewhere,

Tammy 07:43

it could be yes, certain areas of your body will be will be white hot naturally. For example, for example, the very inner corner the inner canthus of your eyes, and that'll be white. The navel is usually white.

Adam 07:58

So enables a hot, hot. Yes.

Tammy 08:02

Oh, go there. You're funny. I did not expect this. I love it. Yeah, so the colors now now black, for instance, if I see a black nose, that's a really good sign because it means the airflow is really moving. If your nose is yellow, red, green, any color other than black, then we know we've got inflammation, stagnation, infection could be very sinus infection sure could be a variety of things.

Adam 08:28

So it seems to me that this is something that doesn't necessarily diagnose, but it is more of a clue

Tammy 08:35

to an assessment tool assessment

Adam 08:36

tool, right? You see, you mentioned breast cancer. So I assume that you do a thermography with with a woman and you notice maybe a hot spot here or there in the breast tissue. And at that point, you say, Okay, let's, I think you have to get a mammography.

Tammy 08:53

I mean, they could be a lot of reasons why you have a hot spot doesn't necessarily mean there's a tumor, you can have lymphatic stagnation, you can have a fibro adenoma, you can have a cyst, infection, many things. The next step would be an ultrasound, and a three month follow up with thermography because we want to see how that heat changes. Hopefully it improves and goes away. But if it becomes well defined and organized, then you know that you have angiogenesis, which is new blood vessel growth. Right? That is a tumor.

Adam 09:26

So yeah, so my understanding of certain physiology, I mean, when you I know cancer kind of directs the body to feed it with more blood blood. Yeah. And I would assume when that process is occurring, that it generates heat, and that's why it shows up on a tomography correct but I would even if I was a woman and I saw a hotspot, I don't know if I'd want to wait three months to see it.

Tammy 09:50

Most cancers are in the breast are really slow growing. And if you're coming from the mindset of disrupting mainstream medicine, to running Radiation on that immediately might not be such a good idea. So we do a lot of different things to help bring that inflammation down, and to get that heat to change. And oftentimes, the body completely shifts in three months. So that's why I would recommend an ultrasound just so you have that anatomical view to match with the physiology basically, that is like the best starting point to get your to get you to know what to do next.

Adam 10:33

If I'm a woman, I think wouldn't when mammography one of the recommended mammography start, I think at four years old, if I remember correct, and

Tammy 10:39

that's a problem. That's too young. That's that's a lot of radiation. If you're doing a man a mammogram once a year, starting at age 40. It's a problem. And they've actually changed that and said, Well, you should now wait until you're 50. So they're starting to realize that the amount of radiation and compression that a mammogram brings is a problem. As a matter of fact, when you sign the consent form, you're signing a consent form that says This procedure can cause cancer, it's in there. So what they've done as they've started to change the way that they use mammograms, which is great, because there's more awareness around doing it every single year is a problem. That's why bringing thermography and ultrasounds together, smarter approach. There's no pain, there's no body contact, there's no radiation. Now, here's what people really need to understand about thermography. It allows you to see what you cannot yet feel. It's the start of early disease detection, which will let you be preventative, what does is the best thing you can do when it comes to cancer is not to get it. Women don't understand how to be preventative. So when you do thermal imaging, not only are you getting a test, to see where your body's at, but you're getting all of these things that you can do to be proactive, to bring inflammation down, which is the start of cancer anyway. So it's really a process of education. It's a process of re learning what it is to be healthy in today's toxic world.

Adam 12:16

So when you start seeing hot spots all around the body, so it's not just about the breast, it's not

Tammy 12:20

at all about. It's about the whole body. Yeah. So in your practice,

Adam 12:22

why are people coming to you primarily?

Tammy 12:26

Well, they're coming to me because they want to know, they want to know where they have inflammation, they want to know if they've got stagnation, which could be digestive, it could be lymphatic stagnation. They want to know if they've got neuropathy, because oftentimes you don't even know you have neuropathy. So if you have issues with the way your nervous system is messaging, you have more chances of developing different types of diseases. So thermography is looking at flow systems, blood flow, nerve flow, lymph flow, hormonal flow, there is no other test that can tell you, if you have hormonal imbalance in your breast tissue. If you have an estrogen dominant pattern in your breast situ, which is what thermography shows, you got a big problem. Now you can look at bloodwork and you know monitor your hormones that way. But even then your bloodwork might look fine. It's what's in the tissue. That is the issue, basically. So you get so much more in depth information about your health, when you're looking at simply looking at your temperature patterns. It's amazing, actually,

Adam 13:39

let's talk about some of the low hanging fruit that you get from this. In other words, you know, obviously cancer is a very complex thing, and it is possible I show up, you know, then then there's a whole bunch of stuff that I think should be done. But let's, let's say you go for your how many, how often does somebody come get a reading of thermography? Full body? What do you first,

Tammy 13:58

the first time you come in, you are going to come back within three to six months based on the amount of inflammation you have. And that's so we can establish your baseline. Once you establish your baseline it's it's a yearly test, just like you would kind of do a physical check your blood work all of that. Because remember, you can't feel inflammation. I mean, you can if it's an injury, but you really don't know it's there unless you do a thermography test. So we're trying to catch things early and detect things early to set you up to be healthy.

Adam 14:31

So give me some examples of low hanging fruit like something that you might detect and then you say okay, let's let's either talk to a doctor or monitor you know, there's

Tammy 14:39

so many gallbladder issues, kidney distress, cardiac distress, hormonal imbalance. So

Adam 14:46

when you see any of these things, and then you just saying okay, you should go see your endocrinologist so you should go see your it depends

Tammy 14:51

on what we find, right? Yeah. Sometimes actually for kidney distress. I actually start off with investigating what kind of water there drink because there's a reason that those kidneys are showing an issue, and it's not always, oh my God, you're dying. It's like not always a disease, it actually has to do with what they're putting into their body or not or not putting into their body. So we start with a really simple plan. And sometimes it even it's just go see an acupuncturist, let's stimulate the kidneys,

Adam 15:23

so it's not automatic, then if you see something in the kidneys, for example, a hotspot I guess you call it or degree of heat, that is not normal. It's not automatic for you to say, Okay, you have to see

Tammy 15:34

a nephrologist. No, it isn't. No, it's not. Because you can see different things, you can see different things. And you can make correlations and connections and

Adam 15:43

zero time when you see something in tomography and say, You need to see a nephrologist right away.

Tammy 15:50

No, it's it's really more about let's shift the physiology. Let's look at what you're doing on a daily basis that would cause your body to be dysfunctional. So usually, if a person needs to see a nephrologist, they know it like they're it's too late, that they have symptoms that are just there's an issue and they know us. Yeah.

Adam 16:12

So this thing, things before, it's a real disease way before ways of seeing things that that you can't even feelings of maybe a disease state but

Tammy 16:20

correct. And our bodies know how to heal themselves. It's an innate wisdom that we have the the issue is, no one's looking for it, which is why we do thermography. Most doctors do not understand how the body heals, they really just prescribe medication once you're sick. So it's the idea of a health system versus a disease system. I want you in the early early stages where we can prevent and your body can actually heal itself by making foundational changes. Once you have a disease, you're going to a doctor. Sure, that's just

Adam 16:56

I see where you're at. Yeah, you're a licensed hygenist.

Tammy 17:01

Yeah, my Yes, I started off as a licensed hygenist. And I basically skyrocketed with that I became like a front runner. And I actually call myself a perio therapist, because the patients that we see, keep scaling stuff, right? Well, we do perio therapy, it's not just come and get your cleaning, it's way more than that, because most of the disease that we have, is affected or influenced by the health of our mouth. Anything from arthritis to Alzheimer's to heart disease, it all has a correlation to the inflammation in your mouth, whether it's your teeth or your gums. So again, let's catch it early. Let's disrupt the disease model of medicine by not getting the disease

Adam 17:46

and this demography tie into dental Can you can use demography to help you with your dental hygiene.

Tammy 17:52

Totally well, okay, so that's kind of how it all started, when I was deep into perio therapy, I would talk to doctor when I can say, Look, we see so much inflammation in the mouth. If a person has that much inflammation in the mouth, there's no question that they have it in the rest of their body. But we don't know where, because they're asymptomatic. So we found thermography, so that we can make correlations to the mouth and the rest of the body. And then, obviously, if they need a doctor, we can refer out. But it was unbelievable. And the other correlation I made when I was working in the mouth is so many people that had gum infections, which by the way, we test for those also microscopically, through saliva tests. So many of those people that had cancer had certain types of pathogenic bacteria that we were finding. So we were making correlations just early on. And this was, oh gosh, 15 years ago, when we were doing this.

Adam 18:53

And you were seeing this, you were first seeing that stuff with mammography, while I was

Tammy 18:57

first seeing this stuff as a hygenist. And then as a hygenist. I became very curious and wanted to make correlations through the whole body. That's when thermography came in to the practice, because we have an interesting, it's sustainable dentistry. And then we have a Wellness Department. Well, the Wellness Department grew out of the fact that there were so many issues in the mouth, people needed other support. So now we brought in thermography. We brought in bodywork we brought in energy healing, we brought in nutritional counseling because a person needs physical, mental, emotional and spiritual support, to heal to truly heal.

Adam 19:36

Now you practice deals with the spiritual not to necessarily get into that right now.

Tammy 19:39

But it deals with everything physical would be like a bodywork, you know, mild, emotional, mental, spiritual, that's when we get into body talk. That is the energy healing portion. Gotcha. Yeah. It's fascinating. I've seen huge shifts in that three month period of women having one Like a really hot breast, and they just start doing these things to make changes. And you bring them back in three months and that breast goes way down.

Adam 20:08

What are some common things that can cause a hot pressed? Well, and things that you do, too.

Tammy 20:14

So here's another disrupter. Women who wear a bra for more than 12 hours a day, the risk of cancer is like one in three. When you yes, there's a really good book called dress to kill. And they've they've done studies. This is the real deal. And no one's talking about this because, you know, well, it damages the bra industry anyway. So you've got women who wear a bra 12 hours or more. One in three is your risk cancer. Women who wear a bra eight hours or less, it's like, one in 152 or something like that, but it's a drastic drop in risk. Why? Well, number one, if it's an underwire, you're constricting your lymphatic flow, you're constricting the circulation of healthy blood, which is oxygen and nutrition. So you end up heating up your breasts. Now, your breasts should be three degrees cooler than the rest of your body because they're considered an appendage. Right? Same thing with testicles. We you don't see men walking around in a harness with their testicles for 12 hours we used

Adam 21:21

to and we were told that our sperm count would drop as a result and we started wearing instead we got rid of the tighty whities and started wearing boxer shorts and totally and then they morphed into, you know, the boxer briefs, which is kind of like a hybrid. Yeah.

Tammy 21:33

Okay. So women who who think that they need to be pushed up and pushed in with this wire, what they're really doing is creating a toxic acidic tissue pool of lymphatic stagnation and poor circulation. So a lot of times I tell women, look, you have to go to work, you wear a bra, great, get rid of the wire, find a softer bra, you will reduce all of that toxicity in a huge way. And then I have women who are like, Well, I just won't wear a bra. I'm like, even better. The healthiest women that come into the clinic when I do thermography they don't they don't wear a bra very often. Women who wear bra eight hours or less no wire, they're in good.

Adam 22:16

Create a certain type of hot breast with the the bra situation like when you can say to somebody, Oh, I see what's going on here. You need to just see it. Yes. As opposed to some other hot so it was another hot situate hot dress situation where has nothing to do with that bro, I might have to do something else you can get in fact, I talk about this all day.

Tammy 22:35

So could I, you? Well, you can get infection. A lot of women their armpits get really stagnated that affects the breast because the way the lymph drains through the lymphatic channels is you know, through the neck, the clavicle, the armpit, the breasts, it's all connected. And two really important connections to the breast or your diaphragm and your digestion. So if you have diaphragm restriction, which most people do, because they breathe in a shallow way, the fluid actually reroutes up through the chest wall and back down. Because the diaphragm isn't functioning as well as it could. And then digestive stagnation. The simplest way to explain this is health starts in the gut. Period.

Adam 23:18

Yeah, well, I believe that for sure.

Tammy 23:21

Yeah. So there's all of these things that I teach women's nutrition as I assume we do. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We work when we have people for whatever we need. Yeah. And men, okay, I want men to come in and be screened, because they have bodies to like, so often they don't, they're just not in touch with their body. But we look at prostate inflammation and testicles. testicles, get rid of those tidy white. Yeah, yeah. So we do image that as well. Alright, so

Adam 23:49

we were saying that thermography is a it's a screening? Yeah. Health Assessment Tool, health assessment tool. Exactly. Um, can you just describe the differences between thermography and mammography? Yes. And why you use one versus the other? Or are they substitutes for each other? No, or, okay.

Tammy 24:09

So, it's like comparing apples and oranges. Okay. Mammograms are an x ray, essentially. So that would make them an anatomical test. thermography is a functional test. It's measuring your physiology. So when you do thermography, you're looking at all of the things I mentioned, which would be blood flow, nerve flow, lymphatic flow, hormonal flow, infection, delete, that's it's a large list of what you can see different from an anatomical test, which the only thing you're really seeing is an anatomical structure. So you still don't know much about your health. That is the difference between the two tests. Now, from a more holistic point of view, you have the argument well, mammograms, they cause compression, they cause pain and they cause a you know, there's a lot of radiation which is cumulative into the tissues and harmful over periods of time. thermography, you don't have any of that. No pain, no radiation, no body contact, totally safe. What makes it even cooler is that you can track if you do have cancer, you can use it to track how well you're doing. Because you can take pictures as many times as you want. They both have their place. And they both have their use. Doing a mammogram every single year is problematic. And it's not teaching you anything about how to be healthy and well. So if you can use the two or shift how often you do a mammogram and use thermography more often coupled with an ultrasound, you're golden, because you're going to learn how to take care of yourself. If that's not of interest to you, then just do your mammogram every year and wait for cancer to develop. Because that's the road you're on.

Adam 25:52

Yeah, that's not guaranteed. I mean, like, obviously, there are potential side effects of radiation. But you're not you're not advocating for women not to get them their mammography is done, are you

Tammy 26:01

I'm advocating for women to do them less, and to learn how to care for themselves so that they can avoid getting cancer in the first place.

Adam 26:10

Are you getting? I mean, there's a medical community pushback on that? Oh, yeah. Because?

Tammy 26:14

Absolutely, because they're in a disease model of medicine, where, you know, naturopaths, holistic people, we're in a health model of medicine. So we're looking at it as how do you prevent it? How do you get well? How do you live a lifestyle that will actually ward off disease? disease model a medicine is wait for you to get the disease and then give you surgery, medication and what have you. So it's two different ways of approaching your life

Adam 26:41

will respond to this because this is what the FDA said six months ago. And believe me, I understand how, you know, these organizations are pushing the Kool Aid. But what do you say to the FDA when they said that this is what they quoted. There's no valid scientific data to demonstrate that demography devices, when use on their own or with another diagnostic test aren't effective screening tool for any medical condition, including the early detection of breast cancer, or other diseases and health conditions. thermography is also not endorsed by the American Cancer Society, the American College of Radiology or the Society of breast imaging as a method for detecting breast cancer based on article published in February 2018. And the American Journal of Rowan's genealogy.

Tammy 27:28

Yeah. So, a couple of things to say about that, number one, follow the money. And number two, they don't understand prevention and health, they're only looking at it from a diseased model of medicine. And I can show you many thermal images that shows angiogenesis. They don't want to endorse it, because they don't know what to do with it. Western medicine, medicine, doctors are not trained to know what to do about inflammation. The way they handle information is to just prescribe antibiotics, they don't understand how to heal the body. So for them, it's a you it's not a useful test, and it doesn't generate money. I can't say to a person, oh, based on this test, you need a biopsy. You need surgery, you need a prescription. And they can't either, huh. So there's no money in thermography. Right. But there is a whole load of wellness. And that's the difference,

Adam 28:33

that sort of stuff that you can do. Oh my gosh, so much clues that you get so much

Tammy 28:36

because of icy digestive stagnation? Oh, well, let's let's talk about this. You know, and there's your whole start with nutrition or infection. There's a lot of people who are running around with parasites and have no idea. Yeah, they're clueless.

Adam 28:51

Yeah. which stems from our eating habits, of course, and yeah, industrialized food. So we need to wrap this up. First of all, where can we find you? Where can people find you? You're based in midtown Manhattan? Yes. So

Tammy 29:01

if you go to thermography ny.com. You can read all about thermal imaging and all of the other wellness services we offer. We are on 120 east 56th Street between Park and Lexington.

Adam 29:15

Okay, good. That's for the world, all of our New Yorkers. Now. People from all around the world listen to this. So yeah, if somebody around the world was interested in tomography Is there a resource that they can go to?

Tammy 29:27

So, this is what I usually tell people is, you can find thermography in different cities. Definitely. What I do offer as a service is if you send me a report, I will explain it to you and I will help you figure out what to do for a wellness program. Because a lot of thermal imaging companies do not do that. They just hand you the report and off you go. So if you don't know what you're doing, you can be you know, yes. A doctor handing you your X ray. Yeah, it's ridiculous. So I offer that service. Once you have your report. We can talk on phone I can guide you And we can, you know, Coach you from there. Well, thank

Adam 30:03

you very much Tammy Kohlschmidt thermography. Remember everybody, since the COVID pandemic, we pivoted to a lot of virtual training. And I have to tell you, it's working out a lot better than I than I ever imagined. I'm picking up a lot of new business from this now, doesn't mean you have to stay doing virtuals on a weekly basis with us. If you're interested in this high intensity exercise that we've been talking about for the last three years, it is beneficial just to do one or two virtual workouts so we can show you how to do a high intensity exercise our way with conventional equipment, dumbbells or chair, you'll be surprised how differently we use a dumbbell versus the conventional methods. It's kind of interesting. So it I totally think it's worth it to try virtual workouts and to be able to learn our technique that we've been advocating for for the last well, 23 years. But since the podcast I guess, three years now, and to get in touch with us to set up the virtual workouts or to come into our studios, which we'll be opening up hopefully in a couple of weeks in New York City. You can find this at inform fitness.com. And once again, I like to thank Tammy Kohlschmidt joining us today. She is part of thermography for health New York. Thank you very much.

Tammy 31:20

Thank you, Adam. It was a pleasure.

Arlene 31:23

This has been the Inform Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman. for over 20 years informed fitness has been providing clients of all ages with customized personal training designed to build strength fast. Visit InformFitness.com for testimonials, blogs and videos on the three pillars, exercise, nutrition and recovery

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Since the early 1900’s, scientists have been debating the question, “Does exercise increase or decrease our risk of catching passing infections, and the question has never been more salient than now, thanks to the coronavirus pandemic.
For some, self-isolation has ended their usual exercise habits; for others, a sudden excess of free time is allowing them to train longer and more frequently than ever before. Neither approach, it turns out, is ideal.
The immune system is very responsive to exercise, the extent of which depends on the duration, intensity and volume of the physiological stress imposed by the workload. Mounting evidence indicates that regular, physical activity and structured exercise reduces the incidence of many chronic diseases in older age, including communicable diseases such as viral and bacterial infections, as well as non-communicable diseases such as cancer and chronic inflammatory disorders.

This is a lively and encouraging episode as Adam and Mike discuss how they determine the ‘correct’ dosage of exercise. This discussion also provides new insights on the interactions between exercise, nutrition, and our immunity. As always, your feedback and suggestions are always welcome.

Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

We would love to hear from you with your questions, comments & show ideas…

Our email address is podcast@informfitness.com

66 Inform_Corona 2_April 27 Transcript

Arlene [00:00:01] The Inform Fitness Podcast with Adam Zickerman man and co-host Mike Rogers is a presentation of Inform Fitness Studios, a small family of personal training facilites specializing in safe, efficient, high intensity strength training. On our bi monthly podcast, Adam and Mike discussed the latest findings in the areas of exercise, nutrition and recovery with leading experts and scientists. We aim to debunk the popular misconceptions and the urban myths that are so prevalent in the fields of health and fitness and to replace those sacred cows with scientific based up to the minute information on a variety of subjects. We'll cover exercise protocols and techniques. Nutrition, sleep, recovery. The role of genetics in the response to exercise and much more. On this episode, Adam and Mike discuss today's science specifically in the relatively new field of exercise immunology and whether it supports the idea of remaining active and exercising even as the incidence of new virus cases continue to grow.

Adam [00:01:17] We've been saying it all along about exercise and how it can affect our immune system and stuff like that. Too much, too little, kind of like Goldilocks and the three Bears, we gotta find what's just right. That's what the research has shown. There is this sweet spot and I have to kind of find a balance each individual.

Adam [00:01:33] Hello, everybody. Mike and I are back for another episode of this Covid 19 podcast. It's been about two weeks since we recorded that first one and it seems like two years, quite honestly, so much has happened in that time.

Mike [00:01:44] You know, Adam, remember, we weren't. It was a little debate over whether we were going to stay open a little bit in the beginning because we're not actually classified as a gym. And I could be wrong about this. But I heard anecdotally that the first phase of the roll back to normalcy, I think gyms are included with that. I think that they see that it's very, very important for people to be getting their body moving. It's for their for their overall health. But I've talked to all the clients all week, and they are finding incredible value in what we're figuring out how to do with them in this setting. But a lot of them, they can't wait to get back on some of the machines, people say they want those machines back, you know, and that's just the way it is.

Adam [00:02:32] And I do I spend a lot of time doing spine exercise with our client, with the neck extension machines, our lower back machines. These are tools that it's very, very hard to replicate, especially when you're not with somebody to tell somebody over the phone, over the Internet, how to do an esoteric and somewhat riskier type of exercise, such as the neck or the lower back, it becomes problematic. We're missing that. I mean, the whole reason I started Inform Fitness in the first place is because I thought we'd be able to apply exercise a lot better than the conventional ways. You know, everything we're doing over there over the Internet are conventional ways of exercise, using conventional tools. And used properly you can have a very good workout, but that wasn't enough for me in the long run. For me, I wanted to just do something that that you can't get anywhere else. But that's another topic. I am finding that, Mike, that, you know, this is this is a good even better than good. It's a very good stimulus for exercise. But like you said, they're they're missing some of the cool stuff that we have, which kind of brings us to the topic about why are we imploring that our clients continue their exercise program? Well, you know, when I started the business back in '97, very soon thereafter, I wrote a book called The E Myth. I don't know how many people remember that. It was a very popular book, major, major best seller by Gerber. When I read that, I realized that what we sell is not necessarily exercise. I mean, that's our product. The E Myth made me ask this question. If you'd asked me before I read the E myth, what we sell as Inform Fitness. I would say exercise, personal training, exercise. That's our product. What we really actually sell is freedom, freedom from injury, freedom from too much time spent exercising. And that also includes freedom from illness as a result of overtraining or not training enough. That's what we're going to talk about today. Exercise and its effect on our immunity. I couldn't think of a more salient conversation about immunity during this time of the Covid 19 pandemic. Not to say that we're giving medical advice for sure. But it is an interesting subject to find out what we know now about exercise and its effect on our immunity. To be fair, let me start by saying it's not conclusive. There's a lot of evidence pointing towards the benefits of certain amounts of exercise. But it's certainly not conclusive. There are a lot of confounders and a lot more research that has to be done. Speaking of research, immunology has been really catching up the last 10, 20 years. Immunology and and how it relates to exercise is a relatively new field and we're learning a lot on a regular basis. Why I think it's so salient right now is because now that people are basically home, not able to go to the gym, not able to do even go to a park. At this point, a lot of places, even parks are being closed, although recently I heard we're recording this podcast today on the 20th of April. And I'm hearing now that certain states, certain areas are actually opening up parks. However, most parks are still closed and people are either doing one or two things as a result of just being home or not working. They're either not working at all eating like crazy, going back to the comfort foods. Then you have those types that are just like bored as can be and they're just exercising, exercising, exercising, even if it's right in their house. Jumping jacks, going crazy treadmills, whatever they're doing, going out for long runs, even. Both scenarios are not good. Sitting on your duff, feeling sorry for yourself is not very good, and overcompensating is also not very good. There's a long history of understanding exercise's effect on our health, especially over exercising. And really, I think the idea of how exercise affects our health, particularly our immune system, kind of started back in the early nineteen hundreds when a doctor of start looking at marathon runners and start realizing that white blood cell counts were way out of whack. Inflammations way out of whack after a marathon and that kind of set off the whole idea and research on how exercise actually affects our immune system. I want to talk about some of that science. And what we're finding in general. I think Mike will agree that, you know, we've got to find a Goldilocks position that point not too much, not too little. In exercise science and immunology, they refer to the J curve. This is kind of a popular concept, which is basically a graph of what happens to your immune system, particularly upper respiratory infections compared to how much exercise you do. So normal people, normal activity have the baseline level of infections, upper respiratory infections. People that are completely sedentary, have a higher incidence of upper respiratory infections. Then people that overtrain, over 60 minutes a day, five days a week, at pretty high level intensity have also been shown to have high higher levels of upper respiratory infections. When you graph it, it looks like a J baseline. No exercise goes down. Moderate exercise infections go way down. And then all of a sudden starts shooting. The infection starts shooting up again. Once you start adding a lot of overexercise, which is basically what our premise has been all. Following that J-curve, telling our clients be active don't over train. Intense bouts of exercise is good, but not too much of it. And that should lead to a very healthy existence, particularly with your immune system.

Mike [00:07:58] And in every in everything, it's a balancing act with the immune system, with orthopedic concerns. You know, we we've mentioned this on many podcasts before and we talk about in consultations about dose response.

Adam [00:08:14] Right.

Mike [00:08:14] And and that's the amount. The part that I find the most interesting is that what we're saying broadly is absolutely true. But how do you troubleshoot to find what is applicable to different people? Because some people can do quite a bit more than other people. Certain types of exercise, they're going to have more adaptive results to. The other people. They just don't get motivated by doing certain ways. It's kind of finding the balancing act. I mean, our sweet spot is people who are looking for a time efficient, safe way of doing it. And that's why we've kind of stumbled on this methodology. And it's worked out very, very, very well. But it's still a lot of people can't go to deep failure, but we can still find an intense stimulus that is meaningful enough. And after all that, it's how do we gage, you know, should you do it twice a week to do it once a week, you know, and all that kind of stuff.

Adam [00:09:08] You know, it's all very individual. And the other thing is there's a balance between intensity and moderation. There's also duration. So we've got to differentiate between all these things. It's generally shown, the evidence is showing with all the research that I've looked at and I've been reading a lot of papers that kinda summarize all the research. And although, of course, they don't have proof, a lot of evidence is pointing towards a fair amount of moderate activity, what they call exercise, a moderate exercise I call moderate activity, because the things that qualify in their brains, when they define these things as moderate exercise is walking is light bike rides, very non intense movements. But but active activity, having a catch. Gardening. These are all considered exercise by the researchers. When they are doing these studies, they're comparing people that do that with people that do none of that. When I look at upper respiratory infections, that J-curve we're talking about is people that don't do gardening, that don't go on walks and don't do any of these things. They are the ones that have lower immune system. They have more upper respiratory infections as opposed to people are just walking around and being active and getting out there, which is something that we need to do when we're told to stay at home. Then there's this brief bout of intense workout that we encourage because there are certain physiological things that happen from really intense workouts that you really can't get from just moderate exercise like some of these anti-inflammatory cytokines that get produced when you do really high intensity exercise. But the window of opportunity is very short. You can't do too much of this high intensity exercise because, all of a sudden, you on the other side of that J-curve again, so be very careful with your doses of intensity. So that's what we offer. We offer a very intense workout. And what Mike was saying about you have to really gage and balance what's good for that person. Some people well, some people don't get that intense. That's OK. Some people can go very deep. And sometimes you have to kind of protect them from themselves and kind of have them dial it back the rest of the week. And I've noticed a lot of people that do they get sick from working out too much. I've seen anecdotally and the research I'm reading really shows that the people that workout a lot all the time. A lot of them get sick, especially if they're not used to it. On the other hand, I know people that do tons and tons of exercise and they don't get sick. So the jury's still out. And I think genetics has a large part to do with it. Other lifestyle considerations, I mean, when I was thinking, reading all this research that I couldn't help but think of what they call healthy user bias, which is the people that can handle this stuff, are gonna do it. So we think that the exercise is making them healthy, but it's just that they're healthy. That's why they can do that exercise. So looking at people that do a lot of running and they don't get sick ever, and they're considered what they would call high intensity or endurance type with high levels of exertion. And you're looking at these people not getting sick and you can come up with a false conclusion that it's OK to do all that exercise. But you take someone like me and 90 percent of my clients quite honestly and you tell them to start doing endurance athletic routine. They're going to get sick because most people can handle that in the long run. And that's what the research is showing, that there is this sweet spot and we have to kind of find a balance for each individual because every once in awhile we'll come across that individual that can handle more intensity. They can handle more duration, that can handle more volume. But in general, there is definitely that sweet spot for most people that they should be active, you know, jogging, walking, just be active, get out there, move your body, stop sitting all day long and then engage in a bout of high intensity work every once in a while, of course, safely. Now, let me give you a couple of bullet points, I guess of some of the research I found. Mike and I can talk all day long about anecdotal observations we've made in 20 years experience and not that they're worthless, they're definitely were something, but it's kind of reminded me of all the talk about some of the remedies right now for Covid 19. I think Dr. Fauci is getting a lot of slack for pumping the brakes on hydroxychloroquine. Where he is saying that there's no proof that it actually works and he's not being, he's not being a douchebag. You know, he's getting a lot of criticism for that. There's all these conspiracy theories floating around that maybe he's in the pockets of other people, though, that though, or hydroxychloroquine to to to make it. I don't really see it that way. He's being a scientist and there is no proof. Not to say that it doesn't work. It's work for some people. But my wife, she's on the front lines right now in this whole epidemic. She works at a hospital and she's reading reports of all the people in the intensive care units right now. Half of them are responding to hydroxylchloroquine. The other half are not. Some of them are are responding to immunotherapy and getting the plasma from people who've already had it. Some people respond very well to that. Other people are not. Now, this is a small sample. It's the hospital that my wife works in. She has access to all these records. But I can tell you this, it's not working for everybody. So when Dr. Fauci is saying, hey, listen, we're looking at all this stuff. Some of it looks promising, but there is no proof that it actually works. So let's calm down. And let's follow the science. Same thing with exercise and it's response to immunity. There's no proof of any of this stuff, but there is evidence. Evidence is not proof. So what are some of the things that have come up in the last 10, 20 years regarding exercise and immunity? They're saying that acute exercise improves several things, it improves the recirculation of immunoglobulins, enhances the recirculation anti-inflammatory cytokines, neutrophils and khomenei cells, which are known as natural killer cells and immature B cells. With near daily exercise, these acute changes operate through a summation effect and enhance immune defense activity and metabolic health. Anyway, so that's one conclusion that acute exercise has all these anti-inflammatory responses for a lot of these studies. In contrast to that high exercise training workloads, the ones I was talking about before, marathon running, working out for over an hour a day at relatively high levels of intensity, they actually have very opposite effects. The science is showing, they're showing transient immune disruptions, inflammation, oxidative stress, muscle damage and definitely increased illness risk, especially upper respiratory illnesses. Now, that's relevant actually to what's going on right now because this is, Covid 19 is definitely a respiratory disease. So if you're somebody that's not used to doing a lot of exercise, this is not the time to start doing a lot of exercise. Now is not the time to start engaging in high levels of endurance athletics because it has shown to cause a lot of lowered immune responses and oxidative stress, inflammation, increased illness risk. Like I said, particularly upper respiratory, which is why the Covid 19 disease attacks. So the last thing you need is additional input to stress to your respiratory system when there's a disease out there that's actually attacking it.

Mike [00:16:06] Well, you know, you mentioned muscle damage is one of the things that happens from overtraining. And the thing is, is thinking about it in general sense. I think, you know, going in a broad way that I think a lot of people can understand is just that the effects of muscle over the all the systems of our body, our cardiovascular system, are skeletal system or endocrine system. We know that muscle is an umbrella over all of these systems. And that's why we always want to be conditioned and strong to begin with. And the thing is, when you have muscle damage, which is probably the first thing that happens from overtraining and not giving enough time for your body to recover from too much running or whatever or too much strength training, you don't see this science one 100 percent of the time or whatever. It makes sense that we should sort of veer in the direction of finding a balance, you know. And the thing is, I mean, unfortunately, this is that this is the big thing that we have to battle against. Or just converse with people about. I always like to sort of ask my own board of directors, which is essentially me, hey, how am I my feeling, how is my strength, how are my energy levels, how do I manage stress, am I sleeping, OK? All these things. And if things are not in balance, maybe it's because I'm eating too much sugar or I'm exercising too little or too much. And it sort of starts with that. But the reason why I went off on this direction. Because you mentioned muscle damage. And I think that really is that could be the simple key to what sort of dictates all these other inflammatory issues that can come up upper respiratory or whatever.

Adam [00:17:37] Yeah, well, exactly. You know, muscle damage is a big problem. It leads to muscle loss and leads to injury. And...

Mike [00:17:45] Without it, without giving enough recovery time. You know what I mean, that's usually because you're overtraining. You're just not giving enough recovery time. And if you're not doing that, then as you said before Adam, it's like it's like the cut that you just keep on poking, you know what I'm saying? You are not letting it heal, exactly the scab. Exactly. It's kind of one of those things where things need their time. And that's part of the dose response.

Adam [00:18:07] These are all variables. And all the research is talking about those variables and saying that they have to somehow account for all these variables. That's why this is not conclusive stuff. These are trends that we're noticing between the general population, a bell curve if you will. Statistically speaking, there's some really promising research out there that's going to help us really narrow, this stuff down even more. There are a lot of confounders, there's age. There's genetics. There is sleep. Now, this is interesting because Mike, I don't know if you're doing this with your clients. But I'm always asking my clients when I'm training them now, of course, virtually. I'm asking how they're how they're sleeping. Now, of course, you have some people that are that are stressed from the situation, really stressed. And that's part of this. Also, your matter of fact, I wasn't going to talk. I digress for a second. Stress is another variable that that affects your immune system regardless of exercise, whether you're exercising or not. So you add high intensity exercise, overtraining to high stress. That's not a good combination. But on the other hand, there are other things that are happening. The silver lining, if you will. Like, for example, I asking my clients about their sleep and because except for the ones that are high stress, like my wife, for example, has go to the hospital every day. God bless her. Most people are sleeping better. They don't have to wake up crack of dawn to go to work. I know. I'm sleeping a lot better. I mean, for me to train somebody at 6:00 in the morning. I wake up at 4:00. Normally now I'm waking up at a quarter to 6:00 to train somebody at 6:00. That's almost two more hours of sleep, which makes a huge difference. And if anyone is adding another two hours of sleep to their day, and still doing their job. A lot of people are finding that they're a lot more energetic, a lot of people feeling better.

Mike [00:19:47] Yeah, honestly, I couldn't agree more. I mean, pandemic. This thing sucks. And being quarantined at home sucks. But that's the thing is like we're workaholics. You know what I'm saying we do. I get up at 4:00 in the morning. We each live outside the city, go to a studio that's in the city. Do a lot of clients and then come home and and to just answer your question. I do talk to my clients about it regularly, not every day. Usually if there is an obstacle, if they're feeling like there, there's obstacles to their results. It's one of the first questions I start talking about. If they're feeling like they're not getting stronger or something like that is going on, we sort of explore that direction.

Adam [00:20:29] Could I just interrupt you for a second, you just maybe think of something that's another variable. The other variable is for sure during these times, if you're not feeling well, don't exercise, don't work through it. Don't be a hero. Don't try to push through it. Only if you're feeling really well, because studies have also shown that if you work out when you already have an illness brewing, it actually accelerates the illness and can lower your immune system to the point where you get hit hard. I've seen that over the years, my clients that I wrongly allowed them to work out, even though they told me they weren't feeling well, that they feel a cold coming on or something like that. So don't work out if you're feeling ill. Sorry, Mike, I had to throw that in before I forgot.

Mike [00:21:08] It's it's alright, you know honestly. It's a podcast you know, it's so, we banter, we talk. So I feel like a conversation among friends is full of interruptions. I think, you know, it just on a personal level, that's the thing. It's like talking about balancing out life, like for someone like myself. I think I work way too much and I'm trying to find balance in my life. Now the problem is I actually love to work and I love to be there for my clients and I love to do my training and stuff like that. But it does take a toll on health. And I feel that I've been sleeping so much better and feeling quite a bit better. And it's just being able to get an extra hour, an extra one to two extra hours. It's very meaningful for me. And so there are several little positives among all these very stressful times that we're dealing with, but some positives are coming out of it, especially if you're already a little bit health conscious. You probably you probably recognize this.

Adam [00:22:05] So it's not all bad for sure. Let me just throw out some more science out there that I've got some research I dug up. Recent studies have indicated that exercise and physical fitness diversifies the gut microbiome. That's that's been a big topic lately, especially since the plant paradox came out. And all the gut biome books have come out of research has come out good, consistent regular exercise. And again, we mean normal activity. Not not a sedentary life has definitely improved digestion and gut bile. So that's another great thing for those, by the way, as you know. You know, I'm more of a low sugar, low carb type of advocate, although it's not written in stone in my brain. Again, speaking of diversity, some people do well on higher carbohydrate diet, but most people don't. But for the endurance athlete, it turns out that having a higher carbohydrate diet seems to help prevent illnesses and upper respiratory illnesses as opposed to a lower carbohydrate diet. Again, this is evidence. This is not proof of anything, but it's interesting to think about.

Mike [00:23:08] Even from an observational standpoint, it just makes a little bit of sense, and what you said before that people who are attracted to that, they are doing it right. Your body probably is a little bit more adaptive to burning sugar more efficiently. So therefore, you know, probably...

Adam [00:23:23] One other thing I want to point out that was an interesting bullet point. The habitual exercise is capable of improving regulation of the immune system, delaying the onset of immune dysfunction due to aging. Now, we've always been talking about how exercise reverses the aging process. And the aging process is a dysfunction of many of our system circulatory neural, and's our immunity. All right. So, again, more evidence is showing that long term regular exercise, definitely delays, the onset of the aging process of your immune system, which is fantastic news. So I would think in general, if you're feeling sick, don't work out. These are some of the conclusions I'm coming up with. Don't overtrain, even though you might feel antsy and you want to get out there to relieve a lot of the stress, you're better off meditating and doing some moderate exercising.

Mike [00:24:13] Walking, especially, you know, go like I think you're really taking your walks. You know what I'm saying, you don't have the fifty thousand steps, but like get out and do a walk for 20 minutes and then come back and then go back for 15 minutes. I mean, if you're sick, you know, resting is. We all know that that's what you have to do to let your body sit in bed, try to eat nutritious food, catch up on sleep.

Adam [00:24:36] Yes. And for those of you that have always exercised and you've been exercising, how we might have defined as a lot of exercise, maybe even overtraining. But that's something you've done your whole life. Then I would say, carry on. You might be that outlier if it's something that you've done for a while. You've never gone sick and you have your five mile a day run every single day for your whole life. And why stop now? I don't think you are the person has to worry about catching an upper respiratory infection. We're not talking about you. I'm talking about the person that now all of a sudden finds our life completely upside down, hasn't really regularly exercised and all of a sudden. Now, because of the situation they're in, wants to all of a sudden, take up a jogging program and starts really pushing it because it just gotta get the hell out of the house or just change up their lifestyle or reduce stress. Now, exercise reduces stress and stress is definitely one of those things that can lower your immune system and exercise itself is a stress. So you've got to be careful. You don't want to pile on. You don't want to have the stress of the physiological stress. I should say the psychological stress of the situation you're in. Maybe you're sick. Maybe somebody you love is sick and not doing well. Maybe you've lost your job. All these things you have to kind of take into account when you try to take care of yourself and over exercising can actually put you over the deep end, unfortunately. But overall, being active, clearing your head, doing some high intensity work briefly safely, of course. Maybe with us even. But definitely the evidence is pointing towards staying active. Now, if you've been somebody that's been regularly exercising and all of a sudden in the situation of staying home, has kinda put the brakes on it, I highly urge you to figure something out. And to somehow pull yourself up from your bootstraps and get some of that regular exercise back into your life. It definitely has a positive effect on your immune system and definitely sedentary lifestyles, from what I can tell right now, and what the science is showing. You have a higher risk of catching something. Don't be sedentary and don't overdo it. Listen to your body. As Mike said, that's probably the most important advice we can give is listen to yourself. Diet. A lot of people reporting to me that they're just eating like shit right now. I mean, one of the reasons I ate so well and didn't have to really think too much about disciplining myself to eat well is, going to work every day training a large load and running a business. And, you know, I just didn't have a lot of time to eat. I had continued preoccupation keeping me from stuffing my face. That's gone for a lot of people, this continued preoccupation. And now they're just going to the kitchen every ten minutes out of boredom. We got to put a stop that. You got to somehow figure out how to deal with that, how to cope with that, because that can bring it down pretty quickly. You can get. You can gain a lot of weight in eight weeks, being sedentary and eating a lot of junk food. You can gain a lot of weight. I know clients already gained 20 pounds, 20 pounds!

Mike [00:27:37] My advice on that, by the way, guys, when I give some advice on that, because I'm dealing with a few clients right now, I'm actually personally involved. I've been calling a couple of people or texting them to start their day to say, hey listen, do you have your plan for breakfast, lunch and dinner? And what's your plan at 3 o'clock to avoid your snacks? And do you need me to call you, just to sort of at two? Sort of. Hey, did plant the seed in your head that, hey, you're accountable to me and yourself a little bit. And I think literally with things like this, it's like we need to like your buddy system a little bit. I mean, you have to recognize those times of day where you may be a little weaker and arm yourself with a little bit of help, because it's hard to do this on your own, even when you're a very disciplined person. It's a very difficult thing to do. And so I have four clients I text on a daily basis, daily basis. And one of my other client's, she has her friend. She does Weight Watchers. It's worked out well for her. She's been such she's gained weight and she's been since you've been sidelined by the pandemic. But she has a friend of hers who has been amazing support to her. And it's been very helpful. And it was even an emotional session we had last week because she was really disappointed with how she hasn't been able to control herself after being able to be very disciplined for a long time and getting great results and seeing it sort of go away. So I think, but she said that having that buddy has been very meaningful and I'm doing it for a handful of people also. It's just and it's just a couple of minutes. And I think if it's not your trainer or me or Adam. It could be just someone who, you know, your sister who lives in New Jersey or you're your friend, that you might take a walk with its social distance, walk with down the suburban street. These are the things that are helpful for getting you away from those little meaningless trips to the refrigerator because you just don't have shit to do. You know, by the way, before Adam, you're saying about like what to do, where to start with you. We posted some videos on the Web site of some things that you could do with nothing at all if you don't want to do like strength training or whatever. Like I say, a beginner yoga class is something that's something that you'll find in one of the Instagram ones. Those are the type of things get your body moving. Doing some light postures. Strength training through your body weight, you know, and then call some friends who are who also want to be health conscious and do it together. That's why programs like Weight Watchers actually work and offer salt for a lot of people. And I think that's what we need is some accountability to each other, you know, because we're stuck and were stressed and we're with the same for six people or less. You know, and it's it's hard to find those patterns, but I think that a buddy is a helpful way to start.

Adam [00:30:25] Yeah, my wife's dealing with it that way, actually. She has a buddy she goes out for long walks with her. They keep their distance from each other. And it's such a great stress reliever for her. So we didn't come up with anything that's earth shattering or generally new. Basically what we've been saying for a while now. It's just the research is pretty much once again confirming what we've been telling our clients for a long time. Basically engage in regular moderate exercise. What we would call staying active, mix in with a bout of brief high intensity exercise thrown in once a week. Listen to your body. Eat well, get sleep and you'll get through it. This is this is temporary and it doesn't take much. We're going to post more videos of some very simple workouts out there on our YouTube channel. We also came up with a email address called podcast@informfitness.com. So please email us with questions, comments, concerns. If you want virtual training, we're here, you don't have to come to New York anymore to to train in our technique with our high intensity, slow motion, very biomechanically correct technique. We'll show you how to use dumbbells biomechanically correct or whatever tools you have or don't have available to you and really show you how how a great workout can be had with minimal or no equipment. So thanks for listening. We'll be back soon.

Arlene [00:31:48] This has been the Inform Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman. For over 20 years Inform Fitness has been providing clients of all ages with customized personal training designed to build strength fast. Visit informfitness.com for testimonials, blogs and videos on the three pillars exercise, nutrition and recovery.

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Returning from a short hiatus, Mike and Adam dive right into some of the challenges, lessons learned, and surprises they’ve encountered when the world changed overnight and were thrust into the world of virtual personal training. During the first third of this episode they talk about the 180 degree turn our lives have taken: How isolation has affected our personal relationships, and how the virtual workouts are going, especially as compared to in-person workouts with access to high-end machines and tools. The rest of the episode deals with the logistics, helpful hints and in-home routines with minimal equipment. If you’re having your doubts that virtual workouts can be effective or if you are looking for some solid ideas how to workout at home until the world opens again, give this a listen. As always, your feedback and suggestions are always welcome.

Check out these Alternate Home Workout videos on our YouTube channel... Robert https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhAeciCU3Oc
Shayla https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDKIZNRvoLY&t=142s
Mike https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaT93vw8EgY

Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen
For a FREE 20-Minute strength training full-body workout & to find a location nearest you:

http://bit.ly/Podcast_FreeWorkout

65 Inform_Corona 1_April 6 Transcript

Arlene [00:00:01] The Inform Fitness Podcast with Adam Zickerman and co-host Mike Rogers is a presentation of Inform Fitness Studios, a small family, of personal training facilities specializing in safe, efficient, high intensity strength training. On our bi monthly podcast, Adam and Mike discuss the latest findings in the areas of exercise, nutrition and recovery with leading experts and scientists. We aim to debunk the popular misconceptions and the urban myths that are so prevalent in the fields of health and fitness and to replace those sacred cows with scientific based up to the minute information on a variety of subjects. We'll cover exercise protocols and techniques, nutrition, sleep, recovery, the role of genetics in the response to exercise and much more.

Arlene [00:01:00] On this episode, Adam and Mike have an informative, plus also a heartwarming conversation about their experiences training their clients in this new way... Virtually, during the Covid virus pandemic.

Adam [00:01:13] I've had sessions with people, we did three exercises. And they were like, that's good enough. Let's just have a cup of coffee together, and I'll see you next week.

Mike [00:01:21] That's always the problem. The first time everybody sets up their iPad, I'm looking at the ceiling. They said are you sure? I'm like yeah, I see like, your head! So, I can't train you really now...

Adam [00:01:33] Hello, everybody.

Mike [00:01:35] Hi, Adam.

Adam [00:01:35] Hey, Mike. How you doing over there?

[00:01:38] We are for the first time, actually maybe we've done it before, but we're ahh...I'm was about to say it's the first time we're doing our podcast away from each other because everybody's away from each other right now.

Adam [00:01:49] Yes, we are in the middle of the Corona epidemic. Pandemic. We haven't been around for a couple of months doing this, but if there's anything to get us back into it. Well, this crisis is gonna do it. And here we are, from our respective homes. So now we're gonna hopefully do more of these over the course of the next few months as it relates to how we're all dealing with the coronavirus. Today I wanna, I guess we'll start at the beginning and talk about in home workouts, virtual training, how it's going, how our business is changed and how we're coping with it. And how our clients are coping with that.

Mike [00:02:25] So it's a new world. I mean, I almost can't believe how things have changed around us. I mean, forget exercise just the world around us and how we have to behave around each other. I have two kids, Adam's got two kids. And it's interesting how we have to relate to our friends incorporating homeschooling.

Adam [00:02:41] Virtual cocktail parties.

Mike [00:02:42] I mean, the thing is like I'm just. Those are the things that I guess we have to do all of those as well. But I'm thinking about this like how we're all trying to continue providing our services to our clients at a level that is exceptional, because I like to think that we always do. And I think nobody has right answers yet. But we just gotta, like, we have to go with what feels right. But we have to keep moving. And I think we have to stay very confident. I want to see if we can really keep our business going. Keep our clients trained. And thus far I've gotten very aggressive at just keeping our relations going and organizing workouts and making connections. And so far, it's it hasn't been bad.

Adam [00:03:20] No, it hasn't, you've done a great job with that. And I get asked all the time about, you know, how are we gonna maintain? You talk about maintaining the quality that they're used to at the gym, how we maintain that virtually when you only have a ball and a rubber band and a chair, maybe a light pair of dumbbells, if you're lucky.

Mike [00:03:37] And a jockstrap.

Adam [00:03:38] Maybe a jockstrap. Well, you know, the principles still apply. We know how to use whatever tools are available to us. And whenever you have somebody watching you pushing you, it's always better, especially when that person pushing you understands how to use whatever tools it is that's available to you. Even if it is just a dumbbell. But before we get into some of those techniques, I want to kind of also add to what you said about maintaining relationships and staying in touch with our clients. We're all well aware of the stresses that we're all under right now. Everyone's going through the same thing with kids being home and and not working and social distancing, not being able see your friends. But I've got to tell you, you know, if there was a silver lining to this and there are several silver linings to this, I have to say that the connection that I'm making with my clients and even my long term friends through all this. Even the clients of mine that aren't actually doing the virtual workouts. We're still talking we're still checking in with each other. It's really heartwarming. You really find out who your friends are. And even though I'm in isolation, I almost feel in some ways closer to the way my family and my friends and my clients and than than I've ever been before.

Mike [00:04:47] We're very we're very fortunate to have a very nice family at Inform among that the trainers as well as the clients and everything. What everyone's realizing now is that whether you like it or not, we're all in this together. You know how we actually survive.

Adam [00:05:03] It's solidifying.

Mike [00:05:04] I got to tell you, yeah, it is solidifying. I personally love a puzzle. I love a challenge. And I mean, this is like the ultimate challenge. And I feel like trying to create a safe, effective workout with very limited resources and to do it through the screen. It's it's amazing all the challenges that have come before. But I got to be honest with ya, I've never been more excited, actually. Because I love trying to figure this out and see if we could actually really provide a great service to our clients. Because as you just said, Adam, the tenets are the same. You know, safe, efficient intensity. And the question is, how can we create a relatively controlled environment in an environment that we are not familiar with, like someone's living room, someone's hallway, someone's garage, someone's home gym. But I actually, to be honest with you. I've been extremely excited by the challenge.

Adam [00:06:00] Yeah. You know, the challenge more than anything else for me has been just to get them to try it, because once they try it, yes, there there are there are some technical challenges like where you're going to do we're going to put the ball. But you plan for that. That's one of the things we do. We get pictures of all the equipment that the client has and the space that they'll be using. And we kind of help them set that up in advance so we save time when we really get going. But, you know, the challenge has really been just getting them to try it because once they've tried it, it's actually not as challenging as I thought it would be. I mean, my 20 years of training people just kicks in. I'm watching them, I'm telling them to keep their shoulders back. They hear me. They're used to my voice already. It's actually less challenging in some ways than I thought it would be. One challenge, I guess, and it tests your ability to communicate verbally and not having the crutch of having to demonstrate something. Although we can do that, too. We can demonstrate from our end as well. But you have to really learn how to communicate with somebody and they have to listen and do it themselves and put the dumbbells where we asking them to and where to stand. It kind of fine tunes your ability to communicate, which would have been fun. Which has been cool.

Mike [00:07:06] Yeah, it's wild. And you're absolutely right. Almost always it's through clear, succinct verbal cues. And occasionally we do have to step on the machine and do a whole demonstration. I think the chops that the trainers have to instruct verbally and with patience. You know, some people are very easy to train and some people are very challenging to train and hopefully develop chops to be able to instruct them no matter what they what they have.

Adam [00:07:33] Ken Hutchins, who started the super slow movement when he started his certification, he was very adamant about learning how to communicate and using words precisely. And don't use jargon, don't use ambiguous terms not to confuse the client. And he tested you on that and he drilled that into your head. And it takes a good trainer to know how to communicate to do this well. But I guess I don't find it a challenge, you don't find a challenge in that way because we're so used to that. We're you so used to communicating well and describing things the right way. But what almost the feedback I'm also getting from a lot of our clients who are doing the virtual workouts that it's giving them a sense of normalcy again. I mean, like to be able to just do your half hour workout again with somebody you've been doing with for a while. You know, it takes their mind off it for 20, 30 minutes, even though it's via Zoom or Facebook or FaceTime.

Mike [00:08:19] So I think that's a big part of making that connection with people. We see them on a weekly basis. Some people, our clients we've seen for 16, 17, 18 years. Like people who we see more than our parents and our cousins and stuff like that. They're a true family. And I've had a great time just talking to people for ten minutes. Fifteen minutes just to catch up.

Adam [00:08:38] Well, that's the thing. I have had sessions with people with that. We've done three exercises and they were like, that's good enough. You know, let's just finish, let's just have a cup of coffee together. And I'll see you next week. You know, it's been really nice. That's what I was saying before. I didn't think I could get some of these relationships even stronger than they already were, but they are at this point. All right. So let's get into some routines to leave people with some practical things to do, whether they work out with us virtually or not. Go go through what you would say would be the most generic basic workout that you're doing with somebody right now.

Mike [00:09:08] You know, like, you know, we talked about this had the last day Adam, before we were thinking about, is the gym going to close? You know, we didn't even know and actually the last day we saw each other was when Cuomo sent out the announcement that all gyms have to close. And then we were thinking about what exercises would be involved in this whole thing. And it's kind of it goes back to the fundamentals of what we do in the gym, which is a squating movement, pulling, rowing movement, the pressing movement. Like you just said, you know, the big three, you know, the leg press, the chest press or the compund row, and then we can go off and do some other things. You know, the big five, where you're doing a pull down and adding an overhead press. And, you know, with a little bit more time, we could do more simple exercises like bicep curls, lat raises and things like that. So the question is, how do you actually get them based on whatever equipment they have and their abilities that they have? How to actually incorporate this in their in their home. So, you know, the first thing I always try to get people going on with is a squat. Do they have a ball? Did they not have a ball? If they don't have a ball and they don't have any real knee problems, they can generally do a squat right in the middle of the room with some limited range of motion. Incorporate the slow protocol.

Adam [00:10:18] Actually, what I'm doing with that, a lot of people don't actually have a ball and a lot of times using the ball is kind of difficult for them. Actually, what you just said, except for the fact that there is a little chair under them. So what I have them do also to give them a reference of distance and how far down to go. I have them squat have their butt just barely touch a chair and they can actually hover those last reps where they're reaching hopefully some modicum of muscle failure as they're hanging down there at the bottom hovering over this area. Once they reach muscle failure, they just sit right into the chair. Boom, they don't have to worry about falling down on their ass or anything like that. So the chair squat has been a big keeper for me, for those that can do it. As a matter of fact, this is really funny. Speaking of things that come out of situations like this, I've had a client that has had knee problems and we've tried a million things like the dickens to try to work his lower body and not aggravate his knees, which has been a real, real challenge. So we start the virtual training and I say to him, let's try the squat that I just described, you know, into the chair. And I thought for sure he's going to say it was going to bother his knees. This is out of all the things that we could have done in the past. We'd never tried this. We tried everything but this. And very little worked for him. So I have him do this squat into a chair and I'm waiting for him to tell me it's bothering his knees, but he never says it. I'm like, how your knees? He says great, fine. He worked to absolute complete muscle exhaustion doing this squat. This is the first time he's actually felt that whole movement like that because we've never been able to do something like that because, for some reason, this didn't bother his knees. I was like, I can't believe it took this to find out what the best exercise to do for you was. So after you do a squat. I mean, let's let's take if you had to do just three exercises, I would do a squat and then I'd have somebody do it like a set of pushups. That does a lot right there. A good set of pushups. You can't do push ups from your knees. A lot of people can't. Did I say knees? If you can't do it from your toes, I should say. Anyone can pretty much do a push up from their knees, even if you just hold it in a particular position for a while. And that's the thing. Sometimes people have to do a hold or what we call a static contraction, where you're not going up and down, you just finding a difficult spot to hang out in and then just hang there until you just exhaust yourself, you know? So you have a squat, most likely into a chair or using a ball sliding up and down the wall. You've got to push up. And then if you have just a small set of dumbbells, all you have to do is do like an overhead press. Right, how would you do the, how would you do your back with minimal equipment Mike, what you've been doing generally?

Mike [00:12:54] If you do have some dumbbells, like, a light one. This morning, I just did the water jug one single arm row. Bent over a row with a water jug. The client had a water jug which was a gallon, and I had her, you know, a knee up on the chair. Ok, get a towel and a chair. Put her arm down and I had to bend over, with a horizontal torso and she was able to very slowly row back to a single arm bent over row. And then we alternated the arms. And it was very exhausting for her. That's the benefit also of, you know, our slow protocol. We've said this many times on the podcast. People think that it's like, oh my God, those heavy weights...

Adam [00:13:32] Haha, good point.

Mike [00:13:34] Actually, I'm a lighter weight done slowly. Is that really creates a safe intensity.

Adam [00:13:39] And that's whats so beautiful about it. I mean, a gallon of water, by the way, I just looked it up. A gallon of water weights, eight point three pounds.

Mike [00:13:45] Eight pounds. Yeah.

Adam [00:13:46] So that's a gallon of water. That's actually to do a set, a lateral raise, for example, with with set eight point three pounds is actually not easy. You have to be pretty darn strong to use eight pounds for a lateral raise. Another exercise that I've been doing a lot of which is really never on my radar given the tools we have at Inform. But it works for certain people, which is a simple deadlift, you know, a slight bend in the knee deadlift. It really works the hamstrings and the glutes really well and not to mention the lower back. When you talked about rows Mike, that's one way. Single arm rows. That's great. But I've been doing rows, sometimes I try to avoid the unilateral movements one arm at a time or one leg at a time if possible.

Mike [00:14:26] She only had one one water jug.

Adam [00:14:29] There you go. You know, so. Yeah. You work with the tools you have available and it's not that there's anything wrong with unilateral. But if you're doing every exercise unilateral, which is a lot of times we are now because we're doing it virtually, we don't have equipment, it extends the workout longer. So whenever you're trying to save time also. So what I'm doing, which is working out really well, is you lay on a ball. If you have a ball available to you lay on a ball on your stomach, on the ball where the front of your torso is kind of hanging over the front of the ball and you hold the dumbbells out from your sides and you like a bird. You flap your arms up and down with the dumbbells in your hands laying forward or what they would say prone on that ball. And now you can work your upper back simultaneously with both arms. And it works really, really well. And people really are enjoying that one.

Mike [00:15:18] You know, what's actually interesting is that in that position, if they do have the ball and you get them where their torso is, like, let's say parallel to the ground without even any weights, just holding your arms out, the weight of your own arms. And if you just go from where your arms are parallel to the ground and you just lift them up to them highest, they can go to the ceiling and then come down 3 inches and then right back up 3 inches. Do that slowly. Twelve times. I guarantee you're going to find that your posterior deltoids, maybe the upper lats, the trapezius are going to feel very, very good.

Adam [00:15:53] Rhomboids, yeah...

Mike [00:15:53] Yeah, Rhomboids.

Adam [00:15:54] It doesn't take much. Doesn't take much. You know, if you if you understand levers and we do, we know that that can be very effective. Matter of fact, when I thought you were going to say is if you actually lean over the ball even a little more and you let your body hang off the ball even more and you try to keep your body straight up, you working your lower back tremendously. You know, one of the one of the features of Inform Fitness is our specialty MedX lower back lumbar machine, which we keep saying you can't replicate. And in some ways, that's true. But people are getting a good lower back workout from from leaning over a ball and just kind of maintaining that Superman type position.

Mike [00:16:31] Just holding this position, I'm actually demonstrating on the video podcast for everybody who is watching ha ha. But the thing is, just holding this position and very slowly with your body weight. And right now, my lower back is engaged to engage all the muscles got the posterior chain and the back of the shoulders. Big time.

Adam [00:16:50] Ah, overhead presses, Robert Francis and I, another trainer at Inform Fitness, we shot a video over the weekend and it's on our YouTube channel now and is going to be on our Web site. It's does a whole home routine with just a chair, a dumbbell and a step. Calf raises by the way, speaking of a step. Calf raises are a nice one to do. Some women especially like I don't want big calves. Men are like, what do we have to do these you know, it's a boring exercise, just the calves, you know, but calves and lower extremities are great for circulation. And if you're home all day long, and you're not out there and about, there's nothing better for your lower body circulation than to do a set of calf raises. It feels really good, quite honestly after you're done with it. So calf raises are really important especially for older people and you can do that very easily on a step, one leg behind the other, one foot behind the other foot, one legged calf raises, let your foot stretch and just go up on your toes and stretch and balance self with something, whether it be the handrail or the staircase or something that you can just hold on to as you go up and down on single leg calf raises. That's demonstrated on the video as well. What kind of advice do you have, Mike? From a logistic point of view, doing these workouts, what teleconferencing platform is working best? Do you think?

Mike [00:18:04] You know, it's whatever is convenient. It's mostly FaceTime and Zoom. There's been a couple Skypes. They're all convenient. As long as like the connection, the Internet connection is good. And sometimes it's a little bit shoddy, like logistics if you're working with a trainer who wants to guide you. It takes a few minutes and it's a little clunky at first to get the camera in the right spot. And there's a whole handful of things that I do, in order to get that right or to optimally to place where I could see their body and instruct them and they could also see and feel like we're connected together.

Adam [00:18:39] The second workout goes a lot smoother because that first workout is figuring all that stuff out, where to put the camera where we can see you the right way from the right angle. What I recommend for people that are using their cell phones is a mini tripod as opposed to leaning the cell phone up on something that's going to slip off or slide down or not be able get the right angle. These mini tripods for like 15, 20 bucks I think. It's so much better and it works so nicely. For me, that was probably one of the biggest practical things that I came up with that makes these things go really, really smoothly.

Mike [00:19:12] Yeah. If they if they don't have it though, it's like it's a little bit of a hassle though.

Adam [00:19:15] Laptops are good too.

Mike [00:19:16] I've had to a laptop is the best because they can flap it back and forth. So the height is that's always the problem. First time everybody sets up their iPad, I'm looking at the ceiling, and they say, well are you sure? and I'm like yeah. I see like, your head. Ok, so I can't train you now. I can't really see anything you're doing.

Adam [00:19:33] Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of that. There's a lot of that going on. It's fun.

Mike [00:19:38] Yeah. I mean there's a couple of things to make it more efficient. I generally schedule even though our sessions are pretty efficient. That can be done in 20 minutes like they always are. But at first I usually get about fifteen to twenty minutes to clunk around and figure out where cameras should go and what equipment they have and all that where it can be anchored. And it's interesting when I see their room too something like, oh wow we could we can actually do that. You don't have your door anchor, but we can put it over that hook up there and that, you know, you get in practice and you see everything in that house.

Adam [00:20:06] Yeah, you see everything and end up training people in their bathrooms, their hallways, whatever works.

Mike [00:20:12] But a lot of time, I gotta tell you, it's a lot of fun. The big point is that this can be done very, very well. The trainers are available and ready and they could actually I think they're going to be very helpful if the clients do give it a try. And what's nice is for our podcast listeners, they're all over the world. And if you have an Internet connection and you want to have a session with Adam Zickerman, umm, you could get the New York experience in the living room.

Adam [00:20:38] New York accent and all.

Mike [00:20:39] Yeah.

Adam [00:20:39] Good point. Where? Yes, we might as well announce right now, Mike. I mean, Inform Fitness is officially a virtual training business.

Mike [00:20:46] At the moment. That's why we have to do. I mean, we don't know if this is three weeks, three months. It's it's a scary unknown. So we have to do what we gotta do.

Adam [00:20:54] I think when we get back to business at the brick and mortar locations, it's not like the virtual is going away. I think we're going to use it for people to go on vacations. We're going to use it for people who've been following our workouts all around the country. As Dave was telling us, our producer, he was just telling me the other day how we have a tremendous following of our podcast in other countries around the world, including Australia. I think you said, Dave, was a big one. So I'm thinking to myself, well, like you just said, Mike, I mean, you want the New York experience with one of us directly, you can have it now.

Mike [00:21:27] Well, with your, with your Indian accent, you can connect to the people in Mumbai.

Adam [00:21:32] That's an inside joke. Anyway, yeah, I'm not going to quit my day job. All right, everybody, listen. If you have questions, if you have anything you want us to cover, send me an e-mail, send us some, contact us somehow. Check out our YouTube channel, we're putting on home workouts, all kinds of workouts up there. And we're going to do more podcasts like this, maybe a little more details about the work in the trenches and for these home workouts. And we're also going to start talking about exercise and immunity and things like that, how to improve your immunity, how exercise improves and affects your immunity and things like that. We're going to start going into some deep dives in that as well. Thanks for listening. Stay safe. Stay strong. We'll speak soon.

Mike [00:22:12] See you soon.

Arlene [00:22:14] This has been the Inform Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman. For over 20 years, Inform Fitness has been providing clients of all ages with customized personal training designed to build strength fast. Visit Informfitness.com for testimonials, blogs and videos on the Three Pillars. Exercise, nutrition and recovery.

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Blood Flow Restriction (BFR) training… this technique, which hit the scene in the 1990's, restricts blood flow to our limbs while exercising. It has some interesting and promising applications, particularly for people rehabilitating from certain injuries such as tendonitis. Dr. Loenneke provides a brief historical overview, the latest findings and insights as to how BFR training can be applied. Enjoy!

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64 Inform_Loenneke 2_Dec 10 Transcript

Arlene [00:00:01] The Inform Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman and co-host Mike Rogers is a presentation of Inform Fitness Studios, a small family of personal training facilities specializing in safe, efficient, high intensity strength training. On our bi monthly podcast, Adam and Mike discuss the latest findings in the areas of exercise, nutrition and recovery with leading experts and scientists. We aim to debunk the popular misconceptions and the urban myths that are so prevalent in the fields of health and fitness and to replace those sacred cows with scientific based up to the minute information on a variety of subjects. We'll cover exercise, protocols and techniques, nutrition, sleep recovery, the role of genetics in the response to exercise, and much more. On this episode, Adam welcomes back Dr. Jeremy Loenneke, assistant professor at Ole Miss. They're going to discuss a most interesting exercise protocol... BFR, Blood Flow Restriction training.

Jeremy [00:01:15] It could be useful for really anyone who can benefit from exercise, which is probably a lot of people. But it comes down to is it something that they want to do? Is it's something they want to do all the time. Whatever you can think of applying normal exercise, you could do the same thing with blood flow restriction.

Adam [00:01:32] Today we have with us Dr. Jeremy Loenneke. He is the assistant professor at the University of Mississippi, Ole Miss. Dr. Loenneke graduated with a Phd in exercise physiology from the University of Oklahoma. He had previously earned his master's degree in nutrition and exercise science from Southeast Missouri State University. Dr. Loenneke is a member of the American College of Sports Medicine, and the American physiological society. He also serves as a peer reviewer for several journals, including The Sports Medicine, AJE, Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise and the Journal of Applied Physiology. Hi Jeremy, welcome back to the show.

Jeremy [00:02:10] Thanks for having me back.

Adam [00:02:11] Another interesting thing that your group works on is blood flow restriction training. And I've been hearing a lot about this recently. I've had clients come in asking about it and I've done some cursory research on blood flow restriction training. And it makes sense to me and I'm so glad that I met you that you're doing this kind of work. So I'm basically a novice with this technique. And I'm curious whether I should be incorporating it with some of my clients, if any of them, let's start at the beginning. What is blood flow restriction training?

Jeremy [00:02:44] Yeah. And this is a topic that's really becoming popular, especially in the clinical setting in the United States. It took a while to get here and the clinical world that now it's arrived.

Adam [00:02:54] Yeah, didn't it start in Japan, I think.

Jeremy [00:02:57] Yeah. People have been placing cuffs on limbs for a long time. But how we currently use it with respect to blood flow restriction and muscle seemingly originated in Japan. The first published paper on it was in 1998, at least how we use it. So it's been around for a good while. But just to answer your question, what it is, we're essentially applying a cuff or a wrap to the proximal portion of a limb that we're gonna train and we inflate it to a pressure that reduces blood flow into the limb.

Adam [00:03:29] So when you say cuff, you're talking a blood pressure type of cuff.

Jeremy [00:03:32] Yeah, something very similar to that. So we inflate it to a pressure that makes sure that blood flow is going in, but it's not completely cut off. And when we combine that with low load exercise, we're able to see changes, at least with muscle growth similar to that of high load exercise. We're also able to see changes in strength and function. A lot of time, that's a little bit that the strength combines a little bit less than high load exercise. But again, that goes to what we've talked about the previous episode of principal specificity. But it does seem like it has some benefits there and the mechanisms behind it are probably very similar to that of traditional high load exercise. It's just probably way making that muscle work a lot harder than it normally would with that low load.

Adam [00:04:13] But why is this interesting to do? I mean, do you see it having applications once you if you haven't figured out already? You know, a good application for this or why we should be doing it?

Jeremy [00:04:23] Yeah, I think a lot of the applications, it's certainly going to be with elderly people or in a clinical setting. And that's where a lot of the research is starting to move now. It's not to say that it can't work for regular people. It certainly does. That's the population that my lab primarily studies. But I think it has the biggest benefit in those who may not be able to train with a heavyweight and maybe it's a kind of a form of exercise that can get them back to doing normal activities. So I think that it does have a lot of utility. But I think there's a lot of training modalities that have a lot of utility. And I think that this may just be another option for individuals and particularly enticing option for those who are in a clinical setting where they maybe they have an injured limb and they just cannot maintain high levels of stress on that limb, because there is some preliminary data in clinical populations that shows that it's doing some good things.

Adam [00:05:20] So in other words you're basically mimicking, by cutting off the blood flow partially, of course, it's like almost like putting a tourniquet out on an arm or a leg. You're cutting off the blood flow. And because you you're cutting off blood flow, you can't do as much work. You can't lift as heavy weight. You're not getting enough of the oxidative. You're not getting oxygen delivered, as much oxygen delivered. So you're not going to get as much metabolic action going on in the mitochondria. Therefore, you have to use less weight in order to do any kind of exercise because you have less blood. So it's mimicking what would happen if you had full circulation with heavier weights, that's the basic idea behind it?

Jeremy [00:06:07] Yeah, I think that when we reduced blood flow into a muscle, one of the things that it does is it's reducing blood flow, going into the muscle, but it's also preventing a lot of blood from leaving the muscle. So all of those metabolites that get produced from muscle contraction, a lot of them are being maintained in or around that muscle. And that might be one of the reasons why it makes the muscle work a lot harder. So the activation has to really increase in order to even do the exercise. When we think about making a muscle get bigger. It really seems like it comes down to having high levels of muscle activation for a sufficient amount of time, because every time we activate a fiber, it's starting those signaling cascades. With blood flow restriction, we're getting that same thing. When we maintain those metabolites, it's making that muscle activate more and more and more and more fibers in order to keep completing that exercise. So, yeah, I know. It's certainly it's not going to produce greater benefits than traditional exercise. It just produces them at a lower load.

Adam [00:07:13] Lower load, and maybe more efficiently? I mean, why wouldn't somebody say, listen, let's just do the BFR? Because why do I have to spend 20 minutes, half hour, twice a week, three times a week when I can maybe do this less time, less often?

Jeremy [00:07:28] I think that's something that, you know, that would really come down to a person's preference, because there's going to be, of course, some level of discomfort when you apply blood flow restriction. So you have to weigh that with how much training with a high load is discomforting to you.

Adam [00:07:44] So, because, you know, we have people coming into the place saying, you know I'm learning about this BFR training. It sounds really interesting as if they're saying or believing or thinking that maybe it's better than what we're doing now. And maybe, and you use the word modality, but maybe it's another tool in our tool box to constantly improve our strength and our health.

Jeremy [00:08:09] Yeah. And I think that one of the things that to consider is if you're routinely training, having a lot of people can do that for a long period of time. But sometimes people, depending on what your workout looks like, sometimes lifting heavy requires a little bit more of mental focus than lifting at a very, very light weight. It's not to say that lifting a lightweight is easy. It's by no means easy to do blood flow restriction training. It's a very good workout. But the amount of mental focus you need to have to lift 30 percent of your max isn't the same as lifting 80 or 85 percent.

Adam [00:08:44] Well, it certainly sounds less risky, right? It's less likely to get hurt with a weight that's 30 percent less of your max as opposed to lifting something close to your max.

Jeremy [00:08:53] Yeah. And I think what you said makes a lot of sense. It's another option for people when we think about blood flow restriction, I traditionally talk about it as kind of three separate phases. The first one and there's just a little bit of evidence behind this. Not a lot, but some. Enough that I think it might be worthy to consider in patients who have had ACL surgery, but they can't do any exercise. There's some suggestion that applying that cuff is able to slow down the loss of muscle mass as well as function. In other words, you don't see increases, but you can slow down the loss that you'd have. So if you can't do anything else, it might be something to think about. Now, there's not a lot of data on that, certainly, but it's something to think about.

Adam [00:09:36] For recovery, so you just had ACL surgery and you're sitting pretty much bed rest for a while. You can't really lose a limb hardly at all. So do some BFR on that without even lifting weights necessarily, just restrict the blood flow a little bit. Which is really counterintuitive, because you know, there's a healing process going on. You just had surgery. So don't you want as much blood to that area as possible?

Jeremy [00:09:57] Yeah. And I think that obviously you always want to be careful with that. But I think the key point with blood flow restriction is that we're talking about restricting blood flow for minutes. So it's a very acute reduction in blood flow. We're not restricting blood flow for hours.

Adam [00:10:13] Gotcha. That's really interesting. So what do I do, if you have any advice? What do I do as a practitioner with hundreds of clients and they're asking me about BFR. First of all, is that something that can be learned to do in a clinical setting by trainers? Are there courses on it? Number one. Number two, can people do this on their own if they want to get into it? Do you even recommend that or do you say, you know what? Let's leave it to the researchers right now. We'll get back to you on this.

Jeremy [00:10:46] Yeah, I think that applying it to yourself. I think it's there's plenty of people who do it. Plenty of people who probably do it correctly. But also, you're gonna run the risk of people doing it incorrectly. I guess the caveat is, when you're applying it to yourself in a kind of a local gym setting, you probably don't have the equipment that a lot of the research is done on. So we've done some research on a practical means to do this, you know, trying to apply knee wraps, trying to apply cuffs. But the issue is, you don't know how much pressure is being applied. So there is data that suggests that people can do that effectively. But obviously, you've got to have some degree of caution. Now, if we think about a clinical setting or, you know, a course, there are some courses available through different types of blood flow restriction companies. So obviously with that, you're always going to be dealing with to some degree, businessmen. But I think that I've looked at what some of them have put out and a lot of it seems like it's pretty good information. And I know that a lot of people are selling their own cuffs now. So that's always going to be the case. Anytime you have something that's very effective. So there are courses that people can can take and get certified with some of these different cuffs, differing certifications, maybe better or worse. I'm not too familiar with many of them. I would say one of the more common ones is the Delphi Medical. That's one that is moved into a lot of clinical settings. That's a cuff that they can apply. It sets the pressure relative to the person which are all important things. And I know the guy behind that is Johnny Owens.

Adam [00:12:24] Yeah, I looked into that, actually. You have to be a medical professional.

Jeremy [00:12:28] OK.

Adam [00:12:28] In order to buy that from them. So even I because I don't have a medical degree at the end of my name.

Jeremy [00:12:34] Sure.

Adam [00:12:35] I can't actually do that. I'd have to have a doctor on premises.

Jeremy [00:12:39] OK. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of different ways you can apply blood flow restriction. But I think to your point too, is it comes down to just trying to be intelligent about how it's applied.

Adam [00:12:50] The reason I looked into the Delphi system is because it can control the pressure, all the other techniques, you really don't know what kind of pressure you can kind of guesstimate it and stuff like that. And it's relative to the person. You know, 30 pounds of pressure for me might be perfect, but 30 pounds for somebody else might be too much or too little. And the Delphi machine seems to be able to calculate that. So if I was to do it, I'd want to have something that's specific because, you know, measuring it is important, obviously.

Jeremy [00:13:16] Yeah, one of the things that you could do. I mean, it's differing one's gonna cost a little bit different. But what we use our handheld Dopplers. So we just take a Doppler probe and we just take the pulse, essentially. So that's no different than what that cuff system is using.

Adam [00:13:34] That's interesting. Yeah. So yeah, I'll I'll look into that more as a practitioner. Speaking of that, who would I want to use that for? If somebody came in with, you know, they just came back from rehab, they have you know, they've sprained the knee. They have a weak knee. Now they may will do anything on it. Maybe some of that might have chronic fatigue syndrome is that something you've considered? People that you know seem to really get too wiped out from conventional exercise because of whatever reason. Have you ever tried BFR with people that seemed to just overtrain conventionally and this is a way of preventing those people from overtraining?

Jeremy [00:14:11] I think all the people that you said might be able to benefit from blood flow restriction. It's important to note that I myself, I am not a clinician, so I'm just a researcher. I research this, but I don't work with patients. And I think that's important to note. So the population that I primarily deal with are normal healthy individuals, but I do know that it has been applied to clinical populations quite favorably. But again, I think it's it could be useful for really anyone who could benefit from exercise, which is probably a lot of people. But it comes down to is it something that they want to do? Is it something they want to do all the time? You know, it really whatever you can think of applying normal exercise, you could do the same thing with blood flow restriction and maybe more so with people who are in a clinical setting, who are coming back from surgery or don't maybe want those higher lows right away. Maybe you could use it as a tool to get back to training conventionally. If it's something like that, that they enjoy doing.

Adam [00:15:14] Yeah. Yeah. My head spinning, but different applications and what could potentially be for. But I think before I jump into this from a business point of view, given that it's just another alternative and not something that adds, it's not exactly additive to what we're doing. I'll probably hold off on this for a while. Now, are there any risks associated with doing it or doing it the wrong way?

Jeremy [00:15:38] Yeah, we've been studying the safety of it and the methodology of it for about 10 years. There's certainly always going to be risk when you're doing any form of exercise. So the way I always think about it is. If we were to do exercise without blood flow restriction, does the application of blood flow restriction augment risk over that other group? Because there's always risk. But the question is, does it increase the risk? So two of the kind of variables that are most worried about is blood clotting and muscle damage. And I think if we look at that literature, particularly blood clotting, it doesn't seem to increase your risk of blood clots. And that's important. And of course, there needs to be more data always. Some of that's been done on healthy people. One study has been done on clinical populations, but it doesn't seem to increase risk over normal exercise. So the other concern I think individuals have is muscle damage. In other words, when we apply blood flow restriction and we have people exercise, are we causing damage to occur at the actual fiber level. Are we gonna make them necrotic? But I think a lot of that reasoning is coming from studies where we cut off blood flow for hours or even days. So I don't think that it has a big parallel to what we're actually doing, where we restrict blood flow for short periods of time. So it doesn't appear that blood flow restriction is going to augment the risk of muscle damage either. Now, a concern that I have that so far appears to be unfounded, which is good is, what happens to the venous side. In other words, are we causing some sort of long term damage when we're repeatedly backing blood flow up into the veins? And we've looked at this, as have other people. And it doesn't seem like it's doing anything negative. So that's good. My concern was, is that we're damming blood flow up every single time they come into the gym. And I was just concerned what that would do. Following six or eight weeks or 10 weeks of doing that. But it doesn't appear to, again, respond in a manner different from that of normal exercise.

Adam [00:17:55] Are you concerned, like some kind of vascular issue to the veins themselves, maybe?

Jeremy [00:17:59] Yeah, I guess I was concerned of almost like having some sort of negative impact on the valves, but it doesn't seem like it's doing that, thankfully.

Adam [00:18:08] Yeah, I mean, they're only doing this for like, how long does a BFR set last?

Jeremy [00:18:14] It really depends on what you're doing. But for the most part, when we have people exercising, doing a resistance exercise, with blood flow restriction, it's less than 10 minutes. So to your point. It's a partial restriction of blood flow for a very short amount of time.

Adam [00:18:31] Yeah. So it doesn't sound like would probably be too contraindicated or too dangerous.

Jeremy [00:18:35] Right.

Adam [00:18:35] So it's very interesting. And I'm glad you kind of brought some light to what's going on with it. I think it's just at this point for my clients anyway. It's good information. But, you know, it doesn't seem like there's something pressing where we should start incorporating at this point until people like you start doing some more research and get some more findings. And maybe we'll find over time that there's a very specific population that this is perfect for, especially since they can't do anything else. But I think it sounds like we should be leaving it into the rehabilitation sector at this point as opposed to normal people at this point. Normal, healthy people in a personal training setting. Anyway, although it is fun and it does add to variation. You know, people get bored during their workouts and are always looking for something different.

Jeremy [00:19:22] Yeah, and it has. I mean, there is data and people who aren't in the clinical population. That's where a lot of the data is coming from, at least initially. So it does work and people who aren't injured. But to your point, I think if you have concerns over maybe you're not going to apply it necessarily. Correct, or you're not sure or you don't want to take that risk. Now, there's nothing wrong with just doing good old fashioned normal exercise.

Adam [00:19:46] Yeah, I mean, maybe I'll do it myself, see how it goes. You know, I'll be my first guinea pig for sure. All right. Thank you so much, Jeremy. I really appreciate you coming back on. And I know we're going to be talking again.

Jeremy [00:19:59] Yeah, I know. I appreciate you having me on. And it was always great to talk to you and meet you at the RAC as well.

Adam [00:20:05] Thank you very much. I'll speak to you soon man.

Jeremy [00:20:06] Sounds good.

Arlene [00:20:09] This has been the Inform Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman. For over 20 years, Inform Fitness has been providing clients of all ages with customized personal training designed to build strength fast. Visit Informfitness.com for testimonials, blogs and videos on the three pillars. Exercise, nutrition & recovery.

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Researchers have recently uncovered that ‘those who are strong, live longer.’ Moreover, people who exercise get stronger. Therefore, as logic would dictate, people who exercise should live longer. Right? Well, maybe not.

On our last episode, #62- The Cardio Myth, we attempted to reframe common thinking about Aerobics. On this episode, with Dr. Jeremy Loenneke, Asst. Professor at Ole’ Miss, we discuss his recent findings that challenge long held beliefs about strength training. Does getting stronger help you live longer? And if not, what’s the point of it all?

Here’s another common belief: Developing bigger muscles causes them to become stronger. In other words, you can’t get stronger unless your muscles are also getting bigger. Obviously, true? Not according to Dr. Lonekke’s observations. He and his research team, have uncovered some interesting data that gets you saying, “Wait, what?”

You don’t want to miss this fascinating discussion between Adam and Jeremy on the influence strength training has on our strength, muscle size, health, and lifespan.

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

For a FREE 20-Minute strength training full-body workout & to find a location nearest you:

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Inform_Loenneke1_Sept30 Transcript

Arlene [00:00:01] The Inform Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman and co-host Mike Rogers is a presentation of Inform Fitness Studios, a small family of personal training facilities specializing in safe efficient high intensity strength training. On our bi monthly podcast Adam and Mike discuss the latest findings in the areas of exercise nutrition and recovery with leading experts and scientists. We aim to debunk the popular misconceptions and the urban myths that are so prevalent in the fields of health and fitness. And to replace those sacred cows with scientific based up to the minute information on a variety of subjects. We'll cover exercise protocols and techniques nutrition sleep recovery the role of genetics in the response to exercise and much more.

Arlene [00:01:00] On this episode Adam welcomes Dr. Jeremy Loenneke, assistant professor at Ole Miss. They discuss his recent findings that challenge long held beliefs about strength training. Does getting stronger help you live longer and if not what's the point of it all?

Jeremy [00:01:15] If doing resistance exercise isn't really associated with all cause mortality, then being strong is. How do we reconcile those two things? Because they seem very related and they are very related. But that analysis is actually quite different.

Adam [00:01:32] Today we have with us Dr. Jeremy Loenneke assistant professor at the University of Mississippi Ole Miss. Dr. Loenneke graduated with a PHD in exercise physiology from the University of Oklahoma. He had previously earned his master's degree in nutrition and exercise science from Southeast Missouri State University. Dr. Loenneke is a member of the American College of Sports Medicine and American Physiological Society. He also serves as a peer reviewer for several journals including the Sports Medicine AGE, Medicine & Science and Sports and Exercise and the Journal of Applied Physiology. On this episode we are going to go into strength and all cause mortality and we're going to be getting into also is muscle hypertrophy or increase in muscle size leading to or causing muscle strength. Jeremy welcome.

Jeremy [00:02:25] Thanks for having me.

Adam [00:02:26] I was really intrigued by your talk that you gave at the Rec Conference and you titled it Only the Strong Survive... Fact or Fiction. And as scientists, I was a former scientist. You're a current scientist and you know we are always questioning our dogma and you're not doing your job if you're not constantly questioning your current belief system. This talk, Only the Strong Survive certainly did that and that's why one of the reasons to have you on. I want you to talk about this thing you talked about which was it had to do with strength and all cause mortality. What prompted this conversation and this talk.

Jeremy [00:03:06] Yeah I think that we've done a little bit of cross sectional population level statistics on some of these studies. There's a database in the United States called InHains. And it's freely accessible to anyone and it's useful if you have some population level questions and we and others have been interested in this idea of strength and its relationship with all forms of different types of health as well as all cause mortality. And if you look at the literature some of the things that you see, there's relationships in other words the stronger you are the less likely you are to die. I think that's an interesting topic and I think it means different things than what a lot people think it means. So I thought it would be a useful kind of topic to discuss for people who are interested in strength training because I think that resistance exercise and exercise in general is very useful but I don't know that that literature necessarily can substantiate the importance of resistance exercise. But if you look at some of the data particularly the ones the study that we did we found just as other people have found that those who are strong tend to be less likely to die prematurely. The other thing that we found though is that most of the people who are strong aren't participating in exercise. So that's why I don't think that you can use that as a reason why people should exercise because those two things aren't really the same thing the analysis is a little bit different. And I think that one of the things that we've thrown around is trying to figure out how to explain some of that data. So if doing resistance exercise isn't really associated with all cause mortality but being strong is. How do we reconcile those two things because they seem very related and they are very related but that analysis is actually quite different.

Adam [00:05:02] Well doesn't resistance training make you stronger.

Jeremy [00:05:05] Yeah exactly. And that's why we spent several hours trying to figure out how to make sense of that. In other words if you look at those studies those who are strong are less likely to die. And we know that lifting weights gets you stronger. So it would seem intuitive that you could just connect those two dots. I guess the point is is that when you look at the people included in that study as well as other studies the majority of them are not actually lifting weights. The majority of them are not actually exercising. Meaning that those who are the strongest seem like they have something innately different about them. And in fact it's not necessarily those who are the strongest. If you look at a lot of those studies a lot of it comes down to just not being the weakest. So as long as you're not the weakest category you tend to have a similar risk.

Adam [00:05:57] Wow. So we are exercising I mean you not obviously saying don't exercise or maybe you are I don't know. I mean are you looking at maybe as a group of people that are exercising and they're all cause mortality.

Jeremy [00:06:12] I think that there's some really what you need is a randomized controlled trial. Right. And that would be the perfect way to answer this question. But the issue is is that that's almost impossible to do over a long period of time. We'd have to recruit people when they're in their early 20s. We'd split them up into different groups and we'd study them for the rest of their life. So that's not very feasible. But we do have studies in older people. What they suggest is that resistance exercise, aerobic exercise being physically active. It does seem like it has health benefits but reducing your risk of all cause mortality or premature all cause mortality probably isn't one of them. So I think that we just have to move away from what variable we're discussing. So I do think it's true that people who are strong probably are less likely to die but that's not an effective exercise because they weren't exercising it couldn't be. So what it probably tells us is that there's something different about those people and that sets maybe their baseline risk for a lot of different conditions but exercise and being active across their whole lifespan will help them maintain whatever risk that they have. In other words if they're in the highest category when they're in their 20s or 30s in order to stay there it probably is important to exercise. So I think that's how we can kind of connect those two dots.

Adam [00:07:40] Yeah I talk to clients that I notice that they have the innate strength that we're talking about here and I always say to them you have a gift. Let's preserve that gift.

Jeremy [00:07:49] Exactly. And I fully realize that whenever I try to explain this it sounds not intuitive and like it doesn't make any sense but I just think it's important that we point out that the reason why exercise can't explain that. Is because those people were not exercising. So it just tells us that there's something different about them.

Adam [00:08:14] It's a point that you know needs to be made. And the truth hurts right? You know you're not a businessman you're not running a business right. So here I am running a business and like do I want people to know that right. I mean telling them that their strength training may not be associated with a longer life just because they're doing it.

Jeremy [00:08:33] But it probably is associated with perhaps a better life.

Adam [00:08:36] Exactly. So as Rhonda Patrick likes to say when I listen to her and Dr. Peter Attia when I listen to his podcast they talk about the difference between lifespan and health span. I don't know if it's their ideas but you know they talk about health bent and that's to me more important.

Jeremy [00:08:56] I agree. I think it's a good point and I think that the way I think about resistance exercise I view it as a way for people as almost a way to stay active for a longer period of time. And one of the things that has a lot of evidence behind it and I don't fully understand the mechanism behind it is when people lift weights or when they exercise particularly lift weights they seem to be at a lower risk of injury. And I think that the utility of that is whenever time you get injured you become inactive and when you become inactive there's a lot of negative things that start to mount up. So if you exercise you get hurt less. You can stay active for a longer period of time. And I think that that's one of the benefits of exercising over the whole lifespan. So if you know if I'm in my thirties lifting weights right now I may help me just to prevent injury which would make me immobilized and it may help me when I do fall or if I do fall that I don't get hurt. So there is some good data behind that.

Adam [00:10:02] Sure. Let's get into another thought or belief if you will that we've all had for a long time. I certainly have and that is you know when you strength train your muscles get bigger. When muscles get bigger we call that hypertrophy by the way muscular hypertrophy. When muscles get bigger they don't necessarily get stronger because they're getting bigger. In other words we all thought that hey listen, if your muscles get bigger you're naturally getting stronger. Besides looking better I guess that was our clue that we are getting stronger that we're getting bigger. But the research you've been doing is actually not necessarily showing that,.

Jeremy [00:10:51] Correct, and that's something that we've become really interested in the past few years because it is counter to what we teach in the classroom. It's counter to what a lot of the literature suggests and it's counter to what a lot of people currently think.

Adam [00:11:08] Currently think. But as I read in your paper from a historical context there used to be skepticism actually regarding muscle size and its contributing effects to muscle strength. I mean it wasn't automatically thought back in the day that getting a bigger muscle meant you're getting a stronger muscle but that eventually changed to what we're thinking now is that you know big muscle is a strong muscle.

Jeremy [00:11:37] Right. And I think it's important that we make sure that we're clear on what's being discussed. If we were to take one hundred people at a single time point and we were to measure how big their muscle is and then test how strong they are. The people who are bigger on average are going to be stronger. People who are smaller on average are going to be weaker. But that's a very different thing than what happens when an adult starts lifting weights. So our position is when people begin resistance training and they get stronger. Why is that? Not why they might be strong at baseline before they've never lifted a weight but when they lift weights and get stronger why is that? And I agree with you that early on up until about the 1970s it wasn't quite certain what muscle hypertrophy was doing or whether or not it was doing anything useful at all. Part of that is related to they didn't have good ways to measure it. Imaging a skeletal muscle didn't come along until the 70s especially the late 70s. So part of that skepticism certainly has to do with the technology that they had. But the story historically started to change with the publication of a paper by Fukunaga as well as a paper by Moratani and Moratani is the one that's the most popular one. And it's it's interesting because that particular study didn't even measure muscle growth. There was no imaging done in that study and that's the one that's commonly cited as the reason why when an individual starts lifting weights and they get stronger that's first student neural adaptations followed by large contributions from muscle hypertrophy. In other words muscle growth. So obviously there's some problems with that. If the study didn't even measure muscles growth.

Adam [00:13:32] So this idea that first couple days or the first couple of weeks I would say as you present is getting stronger that it's neural adaptations. And then after the neural adaptations kind of plateau any strength occurring after that point is due to muscle hypertrophy. That's what the thinking has been.

Jeremy [00:13:54] Correct. And I think to be fair we don't really have that nailed down. One of the things that we've really spent a lot of time testing is trying to manipulate muscle growth between different groups of people to see what effect that has on changes in strength and we haven't found any contributory or advantage to groups having a bigger change in muscle mass with respect to changes in strength. I think what it could be. I think it's you know neuro adaptations is one that is a go to. Neural adaptations meaning you have some sort of change in either the brain the spinal cord or even the motor unit itself. I think another potential mechanism there could be local level changes at the fiber. In other words changes that are occurring inside the muscle that aren't related to changes in muscle growth. And the reason why that we started to even think this because of course I was taught and I even taught that when you strength train and you get stronger it's neural adaptations followed by growth. That was kind of the go to growth.

Adam [00:15:03] I used to teach this too. And I've been saying forever that the growth that we're talking about first of all a lot of people make they say that you're building new muscle fibers which is erroneous. Right. So that the existing muscle fibers are getting thicker and they're getting thicker because they're building new myofibrils. Correct? Is that what you're about to say? When you get bigger you're building more myofibrils and that.

Jeremy [00:15:26] Yeah, and I think that's why it's confusing because you're looking at it and you're going it seemingly adding more actin-myosin. So why are you not getting stronger. The reason why we even started to question this is because we started to routinely see that these things were not related. We we started to continuously see groups that saw the same change in muscle size but different levels of strength. And then you know being taught underneath this paradigm I just try to explain it away. Well it's because of this but then you see it again and then you see it again and again and again. And at some point I think it's worth asking what why do we even think this in the first place. And that's where we started to go back through the literature and go you know there's there's never really been a study that has actually really demonstrated that muscle hypertrophy causes the change in muscle strength. There's there's no data to suggest that that's the case. You know we started to really. If you look at the literature how they determine the importance of muscle hypertrophy is the following scenario. They'll have a group of individuals lift weights they'll measure muscle size and muscle strength. Following exercise or following training. If the group saw an increase in muscle size and they saw an increase in muscle strength their conclusion is well it's neural mechanisms as well as hypertrophy because it was there, if muscle doesn't grow well then its neural adaptation. So I think it's pretty clear that that's not maybe the best design to determine cause and effect and that led us to some of our studies where we we try and create different groups. So one group we try to minimize muscle growth through study design another group we try to maximize muscle growth. And then what we do is which we can compare those two groups to see, does the group that has the greatest change in muscle size, do they see the greatest change in muscle strength? And we never find that to be the case. You know this is obviously a very difficult question to answer. And our study designs are not perfect either. We have a lot of limitations with our designs too but I think it goes to the point that we teach this concept as if it's really well founded and I think the larger point is that there's just nothing there.

Adam [00:17:52] Yeah, there's a lot to know. We still have a lot to know.

Jeremy [00:17:54] Absolutely.

Adam [00:17:54] Well I find very often that I have clients and I've been training people now for 20 years and my staff very often we see people getting stronger and stronger and stronger with no real noticeable hypertrophy. Some people get disappointed by that right. I mean quite honestly the reason some people work out is just to get bigger and stronger and then look better muscularly and they get very frustrated by that. And I just say Yeah but you're stronger. And strength is important not so much muscle hypertrophy. So I always explain it that way also that you know and I've always been like yeah I know he's supposed to be getting bigger when you're getting stronger. But in your case you're actually getting stronger but you're not necessarilygetting bigger. So whatever. You know like I rather you get stronger and not bigger than bigger and not stronger. Do you see that too I mean where people are getting stronger but they're not getting bigger.

Jeremy [00:18:54] Yeah and I think that's something that most people agree with is that it's possible to increase strength without seeing changes in muscle size. At least most people would agree with that early on. I think the discussion comes later which is what you're describing to which I completely agree with you in the sense of we see it all the time that these variables are dissociated. You may see greater changes in muscle growth in one condition but no greater strength or you may see no change in growth but large changes in strength. I think that that just contributes to this idea that maybe these things aren't related as much as we think they are.

Adam [00:19:27] All right. So they're not related. So again as practitioners you know we're training people to get stronger and we're exercising. Now I understand there's a lot coming out about the physiological benefits of strength training especially high intensity strength training where it has nothing to do with necessarily about strength but more about what we're taught about before health and our health span. The mere fact that you're reducing injury but it goes way beyond that the organ cross talk and all the things that can happen from what a muscle does when it's fatigued deeply and all things we're finding out about myokines and the such anti inflammatory responses cell apoptosis things like that. So I have plenty of reasons to believe still in strength training and high intensity strength training and exercise in general but it's not necessarily going to be about strength and preventing you from dying early.

Jeremy [00:20:22] Yeah I agree. And I don't necessarily know that it's about who gets the strongest either. That's obviously an outcome that it's easy to help monitor people keep them motivated. They can keep pushing to get stronger. But I think so much of it is just about participating in that activity. But I completely agree that resistance training certainly seems like it has a lot of health benefits. I don't know if it's resistance training plus who gets the strongest. But I do think it's the act of exercising is probably where you're getting most of those benefits.

Adam [00:20:53] In your paper you have a section that says a muscle growth is neither necessary sufficient or contributory to muscle strength. I found one of the things you looked at really interesting about people that did low weights for muscle growth when they stopped and they were retested for strength that even though they lost size muscle hypertrophy they got smaller but they didn't lose their strength necessarily from de-training.

Jeremy [00:21:20] Correct.

Adam [00:21:20] Can you get into that a little bit with me because I found that fascinating.

Jeremy [00:21:24] Yeah. And I think that that's ahh...

Adam [00:21:27] I don't even know if I said that right.

Jeremy [00:21:27] No, you're referring to the paper where they had people train for I think I want to say three or four months and then they de-trained them for six months.

Adam [00:21:38] And they're using light weights.

Jeremy [00:21:39] No. You're combining two studies now. Yeah, but I know the other one. What you're talking about. But the first one that I think is suggestive that maybe muscle growth is not that contributory. Again it doesn't rule it out but I think it's something to consider. They exercise people as you'd expect and they saw an increase in muscle size and strength. Now this particular group for the next six months following that initial training period they stopped training. So as you might expect if you stop training all the muscle growth that you gained is going to go back to baseline. So if you've gained five pounds of muscle exercising you're going to lose those five pounds of muscle. You're not going to go below baseline but you'll go back to where you were. What was interesting about this study though is that they had individuals come in and do the strength test every month. So based on a lot of our literature that would suggest that we view our in training as kind of a form of training. What they found was following de-training all the muscle that they gained was lost but all the strength that they gained was maintained almost completely. And I think that this at least raises the question if muscle hypertrophy. In other words if muscle growth was so important for the change in muscle strength with exercise when they de-trained how did a complete loss of that muscle not influence strength really at all. So I think that's one line of reasoning. I think the other study you were talking about was one from one of my former students looking at very low load exercise.

Adam [00:23:16] Right. Right. Sorry.

Jeremy [00:23:17] So we had individuals train with very very lightweight. They did a lot of repetitions with very lightweight. And we compared it to traditional high load exercise. So following eight weeks of training the group that was training with very very light weight saw the same change in muscle mass as the group that was trained traditionally. And that's not unique. There's lots of people who see that. But they were training with such a lightweight. That the change in strength. In other words the change in strength in the movement of which they were training didn't change at all. And the group with training with a very light weight. However the high alert group saw large changes. The reason why this probably happens is because it follows along with the principle of specificity. In other words the group that was training very light every day they were coming in for the study. They were training at 15 percent of their max. So very light weight. So if the most that they could do is 100 pounds they were trained with 15 pounds every day. The other group was training with a heavyweight. So every day they were coming and working at around 70 percent. In other words that if max is a hundred. They were lifting at 70 pounds. By the time they get to the post test. Of course the group that's training with a heavy weight is going to be better at lifting a heavy weight. And that probably explains why the group training very light didn't see a change at least in isotonic strength.

Adam [00:24:43] But they got bigger.

Jeremy [00:24:44] Yes. So that gets to the idea that maybe that change in muscle mass is also not sufficient for a change in strength in other words having it doesn't guarantee that you'll also see a change in strength.

Adam [00:24:57] So maybe for those that want to get bigger should they be using. Well forget about strength for a second maybe those that want to get bigger see larger muscles. Maybe they should be doing lighter weights higher reps. Is that a conclusion that can be made?

Jeremy [00:25:13] I think so, I think with muscle hypertrophy, I wouldn't necessarily go at 15 percent if your goal is just to try to get a muscle as big as possible. I think what the literature would suggest is that really it's going to come down a lot of preference. So if you train at 30 percent of your max or even 15 percent but I probably wouldn't recommend going that low. If you're around 20 or 30 percent of your max up to 80 percent you're going to see the same change in muscle size. And I think that from a practitioners standpoint it's good because it allows people to have preference. They can do whatever they want. They don't absolutely have to train heavy. They don't absolutely have to train light.

Adam [00:25:51] Yeah it also depends on tolerance you know different people they just don't mentally for some reason handle the heavy weights too well it's you know for performance and safety they do better with lighter weights. So that's good to know. We'll wrap this up because, well time is up but I think we basically covered it. So the takeaway really is you could not worry so much about your muscle hypertrophy if you're working now and getting stronger and you're not getting as large as you'd like. Fret not. I mean you're still getting the benefits from exercise because in other words don't judge whether you're getting a benefit from exercise based on whether you're getting bigger or not especially you men out there and women. That's actually probably good news that you can get stronger without getting bigger. I mean they're always afraid of bulking up.

Jeremy [00:26:38] Yeah. I think highlighting the specificity component you asked earlier about if it's not muscle size and how are people getting stronger. It would probably be quite useful if we tried to better understand that specificity component. In other words because we know that this change in strength really is closely tied with specificity. In other words whatever you do the most of you're going to be better at. Very similar to that study the high load group was better at lifting heavy weights than a low load group. I think it would be useful to try and investigate mechanisms that might be able to explain that specificity component.

Adam [00:27:13] Yes you're right. All right well thank you very much. This has been very helpful and are you involved in any research right now exploring any particular questions?

Jeremy [00:27:21] Yeah we just finished a big study looking at you know some of these ideas of muscle size and strength again we were trying to correct some of the limitations that we've had previously in some of our designs and we're going to expound on that again in the next two years with some of my... I have another student he just finished his dissertation and another one is starting one. We're going to get at a lot of these questions. I'm very fortunate to have wonderful students and that makes all the difference you know sitting around talking with them throwing around ideas and then getting into the lab and actually testing some of these concepts through experimentation.

Adam [00:27:55] Fantastic. Great. We'll keep up the good work. I look forward to learning more about all of this. Thank you very much.

Jeremy [00:28:02] I appreciate you having me on.

Arlene [00:28:02] This has been the Inform Fitness Podcast with Adam Zickerman. For over 20 years Inform Fitness has been providing clients of all ages with customized personal training designed to build strength fast. Visit Inform Fitness dotcom for testimonials blogs and videos on the three pillars... Exercise, Nutrition and Recovery.

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Since the 1960’s, common belief is that two types of exercise exist -- Cardio and Strength training -- each having separate and distinct purposes. But is this an idea whose time has come and gone? Is there a new, emerging exercise paradigm?
Mike Rogers leads an enlightening discussion with returning guest, Dr. Doug McGuff, a full-time emergency room physician and owner of Ultimate Exercise, a high intensity, personal training facility in South Carolina. They examine the history of Cardio and how it became such a widely misunderstood concept. We learn how the cardio movement, aka aerobics, began and why many believe Cardio is more beneficial to the heart, lungs and blood vessels than other types of exercise.
What is the actual definition of aerobic and anaerobic pathways and how are they linked? Can a certain type of exercise be more ‘aerobic’ than another? Does strength training improve the cardiovascular system? Dr. McGuff answers these questions with such elegance and clarity that even a caveman would understand.

Enjoy, Adam.

In 2008, Doug released the ground-breaking book, Body By Science, and is considered one of the top high-intensity training experts in the world.
You can follow Doug via DrMcGuff.com and on his YouTube channel.

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen
For a FREE 20-Minute strength training full-body workout & to find a location nearest you:

http://bit.ly/Podcast_FreeWorkout

Inform_McGuff 2_September 10 Transcript

Arlene [00:00:01] The Inform Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman and co-host Mike Rogers is a presentation of Inform Fitness studios a small family of personal training facilities specializing in safe efficient high intensity strength training. On our bi monthly podcast Adam and Mike discuss the latest findings in the areas of exercise nutrition and recovery with leading experts and scientists. We aim to debunk the popular misconceptions and the urban myths that are so prevalent in the fields of health and fitness. And to replace those sacred cows with scientific based up to the minute information on a variety of subjects. We'll cover exercise protocols and techniques nutrition sleep recovery the role of genetics in the response to exercise and much more... On this episode Adam and Mike welcome back Dr. Doug McDuff one of today's leading high intensity experts and author of the bestseller Body by Science. Together they ask can a certain type of exercise be more aerobics than another and is there a new emerging exercise paradigm?

Doug [00:01:18] The only way to get at the cardiac or vascular system is to do mechanical work with muscle and it turns out that the higher the quality of that mechanical work, the higher intensity of that mechanical work. The greater the benefit to the cardiovascular system.

Adam [00:01:37] I've known today's guest Dr. Doug McGuff now for over 20 years. He's a doctor he's a practicing E.R. doctor in South Carolina and Doug is one of those few doctors who actually happens to run his own gym. It's called Ultimate Exercise and it's in Seneca, South Carolina. In 2008 Doug co-wrote the groundbreaking book Body by Science. It was and really is a really important book because it comes from a theoretical understanding of basic physiology and for the first time properly applies it to high intensity exercise. I can't emphasize enough what his book has done to our industry and bringing high intensity excise to the mainstream. Doug thanks for joining us again for a second episode with Mike and I. I'm going to let Mike drive this session.

Doug [00:02:24] OK.

Adam [00:02:24] So Mike please...

Mike [00:02:27] Hey Doug...

Doug [00:02:27] Hey Mike, good to see you!

Mike [00:02:27] You know, at Inform Fitness you know we say that we are a high intensity strength training program for 20 minutes once a week. And of course in almost every consultation from every new client we get the question 20 minutes once a week. That's it. Don't I need to be doing some cardio. And even in the last decades with all the research and scientific studies available there's still so much confusion about cardio. The word cardio the concept of cardio. What people think it is what it actually is. You know how cardio is still interchangeable with the word aerobic. It's still thought to be very necessary for achieving fat loss cardio exercise what's necessary for a healthy heart. And Adam and I love getting into the weeds of the biochemistry but we also want to communicate clearly with the lay person who just wants to be healthy and doesn't want to doesn't have the time to read all the scientific footnotes. So in the simplest terms what is cardio. How should we be thinking about cardio. What should we be thinking about when we use the word cardio.

Doug [00:03:32] You know the honest answer is I don't even know what the hell to do with that term because it's been so distorted and it's in our zeitgeist. But I don't think anyone can actually define what they mean by it. I think they have some sense that there are certain types of exercise that are more beneficial to the heart and blood vessels than other types of exercise. And that's built upon a huge pyramid of mistaken premises that go all the way back to the 1960s. So when exercise was first researched the only measuring tool you had to see about anything the quantitate and exercise effect was to measure oxygen uptake or to do vo2 max testing. And basically you're measuring the amount of oxygen consumed relative to the exercise that's being done that involves wearing a tight fitting mask that connects to some hoses and a box that measures oxygen going in carbon dioxide going out and trying to correlate that with a specific amount of mechanical work that was being done on an apparatus. But you know like the old vacuum tube computers that occupied a whole room this was a big box and the big machine that required the subject being tested to be kind of tethered to it. So as a consequence the only thing you could really do was to have this thing set up next to a treadmill or a bicycle odometer. And because it was set up to measure oxygen uptake it tend to perform better at lower intensities. So the exercise that happened to be tested at that time was a relatively low intensity for long durations that would produce measurable results within the measuring capability of the tool that was cataloging how much oxygen you were using over a span of time. So that became the testing tool to quantitate exercise with and then over time research was done and they showed that people who exercised had fewer cardiovascular events than people who did not. So the type of exercise that was done on this apparatus was measuring predominantly the aerobic or oxygen using subsegment of metabolism because we had a machine measuring oxygen uptake. So we're measuring the aerobic subsegment of metabolism. So that type of exercise became known as aerobics. Because that exercise was linked in studies to improve cardiovascular outcomes which we now know are just a result of performing mechanical work with muscle and the myokine signaling that's going out. The two became linked aerobic exercise became linked to cardiovascular health and that link over time became solid enough where people just called aerobics cardio.

Mike [00:06:29] Yeah, the interchangeability...

Doug [00:06:30] and then the interchangeability was cemented. What people don't recognize is that the aerobic subsegment of metabolism is carried out in the mitochondria little powerhouse with the cell. But that little Mitochondria is actually an ancient bacteria that got incorporated into the cell a long long time ago because it was an organism that ate the waste product of single celled organisms. That waste product was created anaerobicly in the absence of oxygen so you take glucose take it through 20 steps you get a little bit of energy out of that and you make pyruvate. Pyruvate then goes into the mitochondria and that gets metabolized in the presence of oxygen to make some more energy. But when it comes to improving the aerobic subsegment of metabolism the only way you can do that is by delivering anaerobic substrate as quickly as possible and under high intensity exercise circumstances you can deliver that as quickly as possible to the extent that the pyuvate can't be shuttled into the mitochondria anymore and it starts to stack up. When it stacks up. It gets acted upon by an enzyme called lactate dehydrogenase and turned into lactic acid. That's why we breathe hard. That's why you feel this burn and this kind of ears ringing metabolic effect of high intensity exercise. But in so doing we've driven the aerobic subsegment of metabolism as fast as possible so we've gotten the best aerobic benefit out of high intensity exercise also. Key though is that there's no way that just that aerobic subsegment of metabolism is hooked up to the heart and blood vessels. The heart and blood vessels serve the entire cell not just part of it. And the only way to get at the cardiac or vascular system is to do mechanical work with muscle. And it turns out that the higher the quality of that mechanical work the higher intensity of that mechanical work the greater the benefit to the cardiovascular system.

Adam [00:08:42] Is that... The body doesn't differentiate between what's causing that that high intensity mechanical work the body doesn't differentiate that you're getting that high level of intensity through a leg press versus a bicycle for example.

Doug [00:08:54] Correct. And not only that the cardiovascular system the adjustments that are made. Very small amounts of it are actually made in the cardiac and vascular system. Mostly what's happening with the cardiovascular system when you're resting heart rate goes down all those other variables. It is basically an autonomic or automatic response to the metabolic improvements that have occurred out in the periphery predominantly in the skeletal muscle, so the improved metabolic capabilities of the skeletal muscle and the increased strength of the skeletal muscle is what has changed the behavior of the cardiovascular system. So if you take someone that's you know their muscle has a force out capability of 200. And you have someone that has muscle capability of 100 and they're both gonna walk a flight of stairs. The amount of work that the cardiovascular system sees in the weaker person is doubled. And that's just you know a hypothetical mathematically simplified concept but that's basically it when the capability of your skeletal muscle is doubled the amount you have to rely on the cardiovascular system to support it is spared. So a lot of what the cardiovascular adaptation is is not central to the cardiac Ambassador system but it's an adaptation made out on the periphery.

Mike [00:10:22] That's actually in consultations how we we direct and try to answer that question as to even through the example of like walking stairs and...

Doug [00:10:32] Yeah you know it was in the 60s they actually did a really cool baby hill that was kind of one of the early pioneers in vo2 max testing they did a really cool study that just got lost. And what they did was they took subjects they trained them on an ergometer where they worked only the right half of the body let's say half the body right arm and right leg did steady state exercise. And they had a vo2 max improvement. But compared to people that did both sides of the body that improvement was only half. One more interesting thing is is if you tested the trained side of the body. You showed the vo2 max improvements that were assumed to be central cardiovascular improvements. If you tested the untrained side of the body there was no improvement in vo2 max, proving that the vast majority of the improvement that you're seeing is going on in the skeletal muscle itself out on the periphery and it's not a central cardiovascular adaptation that's occurring.

Adam [00:11:41] Has that study been repeated but by any chance?

Doug [00:11:44] I think it has been repeated but not in the recent past at all. I mean this is way back in the late 60s early 70s.

Adam [00:11:52] You think that was shut down the whole aerobics industry as we know it.

Doug [00:11:55] Yeah. It's almost like a meme. Once it gets a foothold and takes off it's hard to unwind and it's really hard to unwind things that have become you know in the in the popular mindset of a, you know a meme or zeitgeist. You know look how hard it's been to unwind the whole cholesterol hypothesis of coronary artery disease and diets that have too much fat at home are gonna be harmful of those sort of things. Look how the Women's Health Initiative came out and said Oh look. Twenty six percent increase in breast cancer rates and women on replacement hormones when it was really just bad science and it was a relative risk reduction not an absolute risk reduction but I mean it just killed it and now they're trying to kind of unwind that a little bit. It's like let's be a little bit more sensible about this. And it's almost impossible to do. For some reason once it gets that nationwide foothold it's just very hard to unwind that sort of notion.

Adam [00:12:53] And that's what's worrying me about this anti-vac stuff that's happening now that I don't in this way. But you know that reminds me of what's happening right now I mean hopefully that doesn't become part of the zeitgeist too that vaccines aren't safe anymore.

Doug [00:13:05] Yeah. Yeah.

Mike [00:13:06] Doug are there circumstances where someone perhaps should be doing some steady state exercise in addition to their resistance training for the purpose of improving their cardiovascular health.

Doug [00:13:16] Well here let me put this as the backdrop. Adam and I both came from a background in super slow. We really thought that the only thing to do was to do high intensity strength training and that any activity outside of that was only going to consume precious recovery resources. We really literally wanted clients to train really really hard and then go into suspended animation chamber until their next work. I'm sure Adam can attest. I certainly found it. It was the most frustrating exercise to try to sell that to clients because what happens. I think this is largely through myokine signalling and energy signaling is once you've got a client that started with you at baseline once they got somewhere between 25 and 40 percent stronger their activity levels spontaneously just went off the chain. All of a sudden people were taking up sports that they've given up their going out running 10 k's they were getting a mountain bike and going out and riding every evening. Their activity levels went off the chain. I think that we awaken a active genotype and we get people adequately strong. I think the mark of a healthy organism is a large amount, a large background of low intensity activity with intermittent spikes of high intensity activity.

Mike [00:14:39] Which feels more like recreational fun than it does then exercise.

Doug [00:14:42] So I would say the context in which I would artificially introduce that is if for some reason either because of employment lifestyle or just a negative inclination towards being physically active the person was not expressing that sort of activity level then it might be worthwhile to go ahead and try to artificially introduce that. But I found that that almost never occurs. I find that most clients generally become very active and a lot of them do end up for spontaneous and recreational or pleasurable reasons taking up activities that Adam and I in our previous paradigm would have classified as steady state or aerobic or bad which actually in this context turns out to be quite good. And in context of a myokine expression and adequate physical conditioning is probably not nearly as dangerous and injurious as we once thought because the injuries that we were seeing were from people that were obsessively and artificially doing massive amounts of steady state training.

Mike [00:15:59] Because they felt like they did do it.

Doug [00:16:01] Yeah.

Mike [00:16:03] How do you manage clients who have a difficult time dealing with intensity and still put a meaningful stimulus on the muscle.

Doug [00:16:11] I used to worry about that a lot and now I almost don't give a crap.

Adam [00:16:15] laughs...

Doug [00:16:17] And here's why.

Mike [00:16:17] That's my problem... I worry about it still. How do you stop worrying about it?

Adam [00:16:23] After 20 years Mike still gives a crap.

Doug [00:16:24] Yeah. So here's the deal. So we made reference in the previous podcast of the Simon Melov study that showed these massive improvements in gene expression back to youthful levels and elderly clients. And I made mention if you dig into the methods section of the paper and the actual resistance training workouts that were done it was at best mediocre and we still showed these incredible improvements. So clients that are averse to intensity or exertional discomfort the first thing that you have to tell yourself is however far you can get them is so many light years beyond what they would do under their own tutelage or under the tutelage of a workout caddy at Gold's gym. Even though it's frustrating to you the trainer you are bringing them so far ahead of where they would have gotten otherwise that you are probably well within the territory triggering the stimulus that's going to produce these beneficial adaptations.

Mike [00:17:28] Yeah I don't. I don't really worry about it so much as much as I used to actually just like you because you know so they are exactly what you just said we could take them as far as we know we can take them. It's still out of their comfort zone to a certain reasonable degree. They're still getting some gain maybe they're not getting 100 percent of what they could get out of the workout but they're getting 40 percent which is still better than zero percent.

Doug [00:17:52] Right now I think the important thing is is just to stay consistent and not give up on them. Once you start producing any adaptation at all that their aggressiveness in terms of exertional discomfort starts to increase somewhat over time. Even when it doesn't, what you're doing is you're giving a stimulus that's a little less intense and severe. So especially in the early stages rather than being a stimulus organism response and then the next workout stimulus organism response and in the early stages of a client you'll see that they're on a very steep curve. When someone doesn't give you quite as much...it might be a stimulus organism nothing stimulus organism nothing stimulus organism nothing stimulus organism boom response I really got the gut feeling that the benefits are still there it's just operating on a timescale that's a little bit more drawn out and slow and the results may be a little more granular than we're able to detect to our satisfaction. But if we just stick with it the benefits still come. You know when you're training 25 30 clients in a day you know you really look forward to that one client that's just an animal that's going to come in and kill it. But anyone that's trained twenty five clients a day one hundred clients a week knows you've got to kiss a lot of frogs to meet that Prince. But in terms of the benefit you're providing the people you know the fact that you're willing to plod through it and and just suck it up and do it offers huge benefit to these people over time.

Adam [00:19:33] I'm glad. Good good question Mike. And I'm glad you said that sometimes because I can't get them to go to the intensity that I would like them to go through that I'm shortchanging them or they're not getting anything out of this and it's good to remind myself that it's still a lot better than they've ever gotten. It was good to be reminded that that the Melov paper actually like you said there wasn't the greatest workouts in the world that were causing these benefits. So good. Very good there.

Doug [00:19:56] And you know Mike sometimes my trainers the schedule just kind of meets itself out the way that it does and sometimes the trainers and the clients they can have a real dry period where they don't have a really intense client for four or five days. You know it's not uncommon to have trainers like, man can you just come down so I can put you through a workout. If you're in a dry spell and sometimes trainers just training each other or you training Adam.

Mike [00:20:24] It's a... I have the patience and a lot of our clients have the patience and I know every day I've been doing this for a long time also and I know that there is an impact that's what gets me very excited to come to work every day is that on a small level on a profound level people who used to be in chronic pain aren't anymore people who you know added a ketogenic diet but didn't do any cardio had lost 50 pounds. You know we see these types of things and there is a prince among all of the frogs. Like every single day. You know...so.

Doug [00:20:58] Yeah, this is part when you're a professional trainer this is part of being professional. You know you look at the military you look at fighter pilots you look at snipers and they train and they train and they train and they rehearse and they rehearse and they rehearse. The vast majority of fighter pilots. Will never be in a dogfight. The vast majority of snipers will never shoot anyone.

Mike [00:21:21] Right. Yeah.

Doug [00:21:22] But you still trained AND trained AND trained you know and we get a lot more usage of our skills than most people ever do. You know it's it's still a cool thing but it does. You know it's just the reality of any job is there. Yeah I know that just you know you just got to suck it up and plow through it you know.

Mike [00:21:39] Right... well Doug thank you very very much for being on the podcast.

Adam [00:21:44] Yeah thanks Doug. That was really good. Hope to see you soon again.

Doug [00:21:47] Yeah likewise.

Arlene [00:21:48] This has been the Inform Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman. For over 20 years Inform Fitness has been providing clients of all ages with customized personal training designed to build strength fast. Visit informfitness.com for testimonials blogs and videos on the three pillars... Exercise nutrition and recovery.

Body by Science: A Research Based Program for Strength Training, Body building, and Complete Fitness in 12 Minutes a Week

View Details

This is one of our most important episodes. A must listen!

Dr. Doug McGuff and I met back in 1995 at an exercise conference and we have stayed in touch ever since. He is such a brilliant thinker and teacher. I cannot emphasize enough how important Dr. McGuff has been to our understanding of the mechanisms and benefits of high intensity exercise Dr McGuff is a full-time emergency room physician and owns, Ultimate Exercise, a high intensity, personal training facility in South Carolina.

In 2008, Doug released the ground-breaking book, Body By Science, and is considered one of the top high-intensity training experts in the world. I highly recommend that you follow Doug for his incredible insights and findings via DrMcGuff.com and his YouTube channel.

We kick off this episode discussing that the measurement of an individual’s muscle mass should be included as an important vital sign, similar to one’s blood pressure and hemoglobin A1-c. Strength, we are learning, is a great indicator of overall health; including being a good predictor of system inflammation and physiologic reserves.

Doug does a fantastic job explaining the concept of S-O-R (Stimulus – Organism – Response), helping us to understand the relationship between exercise, genetics and our expected (and unexpected) results.

Did you know that muscle is the most powerful endocrine organ in the body? High intensity exercise and healthy muscle mass dictates and signals for:

the reversal of the aging process
how energy is utilized in the body
the conversion of white fat to brown fat (a good thing).
the partitioning of nutrients
how glucose is regulated

It will be practically impossible for you to listen to this episode and not feel compelled to hit the weight room ASAP. Enjoy!

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

For a FREE 20-Minute strength training full-body workout & to find a location nearest you:

http://bit.ly/Podcast_FreeWorkout

Inform_McGuff 1_August 9 Transcript

Arlene [00:00:01] The Inform fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman and co-host Mike Rogers is a presentation of Inform fitness studios a small family of personal training facility specializing in safe efficient high intensity strength training. On our bi monthly podcast Adam and Mike discuss the latest findings in the areas of exercise nutrition and recovery with leading experts and scientists. We aim to debunk the popular misconceptions and the urban myths that are so prevalent in the fields of health and fitness. And to replace those sacred cows with scientific based up to the minute information on a variety of subjects. We will cover exercise protocols and techniques nutrition sleep recovery the role of genetics in the response to exercise and much more. On this episode Adam and Mike welcome Dr. Doug McGuff, one of today's leading high intensity experts. This is a must listen as they discuss that there's a lot more than meets the eye when it comes to all the benefits we reap from high intensity training. If you're still looking for some more motivation to stick to your exercise program well this episode is for you.

Doug [00:01:21] If you want everything bad that can happen to a human to happen immobilize them and overfeed them. Movement is life. And I believe that movement against resistance is life elevated.

Adam [00:01:36] Hello. Welcome to the show. Adam and Mike here I have known today's guest Dr. Doug McGuff now for over 20 years. We both caught the weight training bug as young men in our teens, we are about the same age. And we've been geeking out on it ever since. He's a doctor he's a practicing E.R. doctor in South Carolina and Doug is one of those few doctors who actually happens to run his own gym. It's called Ultimate exercise and it's in Seneca South Carolina. In 2008 Doug co-wrote the groundbreaking book Body by science along with John Little and let me tell you it is required reading for all my staff and even many of our clients. Why. Well honestly it was and really is a really important book because it comes from a theoretical understanding of basic physiology and for the first time properly applies it to high intensity exercise. I can't emphasize enough what his book has done to our industry and bringing high intensity exercise to the mainstream. So anyway it's my great pleasure to introduce a guy who I really consider a mentor. Welcome to show Doug.

Doug [00:02:45] Yeah Adam it's my pleasure. I've been looking forward to it.

Adam [00:02:47] I just saw you recently at the conference, what was it... a resistance exercise conference in Minnesota.

Doug [00:02:53] Yeah.

Adam [00:02:54] And your keynote speech was fantastic by the way.

Doug [00:02:57] Thanks. Appreciate it.

Doug [00:02:59] You said something I really rang true in me because we come from similar backgrounds experiences and the timing because we're similar ages and we got introduced to high intensity training the nautilus principles relatively around the same times. We we go back a few years with this high intensity training at this point and you end you said that for the last 20 30 years that we've been lifting weights primarily to get big and strong, swoll as they say you know maybe to give us an edge in sports and if we were on an unusually perceptive day we might have actually also thought that it might protect us from injury but really is about getting big and strong. Now we're finding out so much more that we were getting from these workouts than we ever thought. You know the health benefits of exercise that go beyond just getting strong which quite honestly if you told me that just getting strong is all we got from strength training I'd be happy with that.

Doug [00:03:53] That would be awesome. Yeah.

Adam [00:03:54] I mean that's why we were doing we didn't think we were getting anything more from it. But, so Doug this is what I want to speak to you about the health benefits of strength training beyond just getting really strong. So Doug the paper you brought up was titled muscle should be the new vital sign. Something like that right.

Doug [00:04:11] Yeah. Yeah I think that that's probably accurate. I mean at least it should be you know not on a visit by visit vital sign but in terms of someone's health history I think that ought to be recorded as a health parameter body mass index is being used a lot now. But that's not truly accurate. But I think if there was some sort of measure of muscle mass or strength that could be included as a vital sign it would provide a lot of useful health information. And it's simply because skeletal muscle speaks to everything else in our body. And it's a good indicator of what your overall health passionate situation is going to be is going to be an indicator of what degree of systemic inflammation might be going on. It's a great indicator of your physiologic reserve should you become ill if you get an infection you end up with sepsis end up in an intensive care unit the degree of muscle mass that you're trending down from basically gives you the clot that you're racing against to get better. So it really is a pertinent vital sign. And I would agree with the premise of that article.

Adam [00:05:22] You mentioned that recovery in ICU use have been shown people that have higher muscle mass recovered better in ICU units.

Doug [00:05:29] Yeah absolutely. How long you have before you have to go on total parental nutrition in the ICU is very much related to your skeletal muscle mass which again directly correlates with your overall Organ Mass. That kind of starts the countdown clock because your body is going to tap in to the reservoir of your skeletal muscle not just in terms of stored glycogen for energy usage but also the amino acid pool that's within your skeletal muscle for synthesizing enzymes nutrients generating antibodies. All that is used as a storehouse for raw materials that you'll need in your fight for survival and when you've kind of tap that out then you have to go on to kind of. Into intravenous total parental nutrition which is very challenging for ICU specialists.

Adam [00:06:26] You don't want to be there at that point.

Doug [00:06:28] It's just so easy to screw up you know.

Adam [00:06:31] The health benefits. I want to start talking about some of these real physiological changes that occur as a result of high intensity exercise but before we go right into that which is really where I want to spend most of our time I want to do a review of s o r. Stimulus organism response if you can in very succinct way talk about that and when we talk about exercise we talk about the stimulus what type of exercise the protocol that we do. I want to start getting into more of the responses down the road.

Doug [00:07:01] OK sure. So you know everyone just needs to take a bout of Arthur Jones can I explain it to everyone for the very first time that your natural inclination and orientation towards exercise that is directly doing something that benefits you. The Ab roller will firm and tighten your abs, right no no. That's not how it works. I mean that exercise is some sort of formatting or threat stimulus to the body the body receives that. And then if it has appropriate resources and time it will synthesize an adaptive response but that exercise itself is just a stimulus your body generates the adaptive response and that adaptive response. Preconditions for it to occur. And the adaptive response is really not just one thing it's a myriad of things. We're coming to discover and we've always intuited that you know you and I both know I mean you remember going into a big box gym back in the 80s and you could walk through there and you had all your anemic sickly looking people on treadmills and then you had all the robust healthy looking people that you would like to look like over in the weight section and you kind of wondered if that was just a selection bias or if there was really something to it. And as it turns out our instincts about that were correct. That really is something to it. There's something almost magical about exercising against meaningful resistance.

Adam [00:08:33] Yeah it was probably the best selection bias too because I think I think when you have one when the organism that's prone to build muscle you tend to gravitate there.

Doug [00:08:41] Sure yeah.

Adam [00:08:43] And as the organism part talk about like the organism for a second where because and expectations.

Doug [00:08:51] Sure. And this kind of gets into my whole Pandora's box discussion that came up with the resistance exercise conference and you know when you look in Greek mythology the story of Pandora's box they put hope at the very bottom of the box. And that was so that you would take everything else that was in the box and release it out into the world in the process of going after Hope and in the resistance training realm. The hope is actually big muscles. That's kind of what got us all into this to begin with. Because the outcome of resistance training in the correct individual and the correct organism produces dramatic physical response in terms of muscle hypertrophy and that's what everyone is after was what was visible. And that was the hope at the bottom of pandora's box. And that's what got a lot of people hooked and kept them in it for the long term but in the process of going and going after what was at the bottom of the box we were unknowingly reaping all these other benefits that only over time did we start to have some sense that there is a lot more to this than just getting big. There seem to be more benefits and there seem to be more impact in terms of. Body composition and health. And that became more and more evident over the years from the 1980s forward. A general populace the wheels were just starting to fall off everyone was getting metabolic syndrome everyone was getting fatter and fatter. Those hidden benefits of strength training started to manifest themselves because the body composition changes that we were seeing could not simply be explained by caloric account. It could not just be that the amount of activity you were doing relative to the amount you were eating something else was going on. And that's all of those other things that were inside Pandora's box that we were bringing out through the process of trying to get bigger and a lot of people. How big you're going to get in terms of muscle mass is really dependent upon the organism that specific organisms genotype and genetic expression is going to determine the ceiling of how big they can get. And there are so many young men and nowadays young women that are pursuing a degree of muscle mass that they've seen in magazines or on Instagram or the Internet that they're never going to achieve. But they keep going after it but in the process of doing so they're reaping all these other benefits that they may not even be aware of or that they become aware of in the process of doing it.

Adam [00:11:39] But also we should think that because of these other benefits that we're getting as opposed to just getting big and strong for a lot of my clients anyway and this realization has been very useful is to tell people listen just because you're not getting as big as you like it and you're not looking like somebody that you idolize that's doesn't matter. The high intensity exercise is doing so much more for you than just this idea of getting really big or reaches a certain level hypertrophy and as are we as we also heard from the rec conference that size and strength aren't necessary completely literally correlated so we're getting very strong on this we're getting big and again the act of high intensity exercise has all these huge other health benefits.

Doug [00:12:24] Right. And the ironic thing is is the people that get really really strong are the people that tend to not get very big and the people that get very very big are the people that get very modest strength improvements.

Adam [00:12:39] I know, it's annoying.

Doug [00:12:41] There's different mechanisms.

Adam [00:12:46] Cause I may get strong, but I don't get big I think I'd rather give a little bit of that up.

Doug [00:12:48] And the size increase is an improvement of last resort which is kind of funny because it's the one thing that got us hooked into the whole process. But in terms of all the adaptive responses that are available from high intensity training. It's only muscle size that is heavily negatively regulated. So the only thing that really has a hard hard ceiling put on it in terms of response over time the most pleasurable clients to train, turn out to be the ones that don't give a rat's ass about the hypertrophy issue.

Adam [00:13:24] I agree.

Doug [00:13:26] There are in particular if you have older clients they are so appreciative of the benefits and the myriad of benefits that come from high intensity strength training because they can appreciate them because you don't really realize those things are there until they go away. I don't know if you've ever had numbing drops put into your eye but you never realize how much sensation there is around your eye and blinking and all of it until it's taken away.

Adam [00:13:55] Yes I've had that happen. It's crazy.

Doug [00:13:56] And then when it comes back to you you're just so amazed. It's like a fish and water it's like this is water is like what's water. All of a sudden you get back to these people all of these you know functional health benefits that have gone away and they can feel it. And the thing is is if you have a client is training high intensive you know muscle mass aside just let's say we have a you know an older client that's training in your facility Adam, if you pluck that client out and drop them into the middle of a gate at the airport with 150 200 people and you and I stand together. And you asked me Doug which one of the people stand around here is my client. I guarantee you I coul d point them out.

Adam [00:14:42] Mm hmm.

Doug [00:14:43] They have a different appearance all together the way that her body orients itself against gravity the color of their skin. They go. They don't stand out for any muscle mass reason. There is a signaling of health that's unmistakable when when you look at them and I guarantee you I could plug your client out of 150 people at the airport gate.

Adam [00:15:10] You know you just used the word signaling. That's a great entree into what I want to talk about with muscle. I don't think people realize that muscle is a signaling organ like the pancreas. And so let's talk about muscle as a signaling organ and that's what leads all these health benefits that we're talking about what high intensity exercise promotes what it stimulates muscle to do. And there are some things that I just want to throw out there like you know let's. I want to talk about myokynes, myokynes. I want to talk about the energy and protein metabolism characteristics of muscle when I talk about glucose uptake. I want to talk about the Simon Melov research. They've shown that exercise can actually reverse aging and human skeletal muscle. These are the things we're talking about here.

Doug [00:15:51] Yeah. And the whole myokyne issues probably less than 10 years old can't remember where she's from. Some Scandinavian country Bente K. Pedersen is the one that kind of coined the term and first discovered the notion of myokynes is basically their cytokines chemical messengers that are released by exercising skeletal muscle that it turns out that they operate in a signaling fashion both within the muscle working that's autocrine to nearby muscles that's paracrine and then to other organs and tissues throughout the body and that is endocrine. So it turns out that skeletal muscle is the largest and most powerful enduring organ in the body. Guys like us we always had a sense of that that that was the whole the benefits in terms of body composition seemed so disproportionate to anything that could be accounted for simply by caloric energy balance or accounting issues it was much greater than than the sum. And I know you remember the discussion of Ken Hutchins had about indiscriminate weight loss and you're talking about your body as a corporation that had a board of directors and you're in a calorie deficit and in one scenario you lose all tissues in your body at a calorie deficit but if you add high intensity strength training. It will all be shunted towards discriminate. Fat loss because you can't get rid of skeletal muscle because you got a stimulus for more. You can't get rid of nervous tissue because the skeletal muscle that you're adding needs to be innovated. You can't get rid of bony tissue because the skeletal muscle you're adding has to be attached to that bone and you have more added on. And he made this case for how when you have a caloric deficit in the face of high intensity strength training it which should shunt everything towards fat loss. And that was sort of beating around the bush of this whole myokyne issue group. Is that hard work with skeletal muscle is doing so much to dictate how energy is utilized in the body to dictate nutrient partitioning to dictate enhanced glucose uptake and disposal out of the out of the skeletal muscle to increase lipolysis and fatty acid breakdown to stimulate the change of adipose tissue from white energy storing inflammatory hormone releasing tissue into brown adipose tissue which uncoupling itself from the mitochondria and releases heat and contributes to improvements in body composition and loss of inflammatory fat. There's just so many things that are triggered when you do hard work.

Adam [00:18:45] And is it necessary for to be intense work as opposed to let's say just.

Doug [00:18:50] No not entirely. I mean there there are myokynes that are released by lower levels of activity and this is the difficult part with myokyne research is when we are going to measure them we don't know about the amplitude of their release and the time course of their release and whether certain myokynes are triggered best by certain types of activities. So it may be that there are certain myokynes that are released but lower intensity exercise is carried out for longer periods of time. Certain types of exercise may cause a spike in a myokyne release immediately after the exercise. In other cases that spike may not occur for many hours later we don't know whether we're sampling at the right slice of time relative to each different myokyne. Perfect example of this is one of the first myokynes that was discovered was interleukin 6 and under normal circumstances interleukin 6 is released fairly steadily from the body and particularly from the adipose tissue and it is known as a bad player. It is a very inflammatory cytokine and chronically elevated levels of interleukin 6 can actually lead to the development of cancers. So when we first started recognizing that cytokine release occurred with exercise we are finding that interleukin 6 after high intensity exercise would spike like a thousand fold. Immediately after a high intensity exercise bout and the immediate response was like oh no this can't be good. This is a bad player we're spiking it a thousand fold. We're going to make everyone sick. Have heart attacks and inflamed their blood vessels giving them cancer fill in the blank. But what we came to find out was that those acute spikes in interleukin 6 ended up down regulating the receptors for interleukin 6. So you have a lot fewer of the receptors and over the longer span of time your sustained serum interleukin 6 levels fell. It was like lowering your serum insulin levels when you had those acute spikes, you ended up creating a circumstance where over the longer span of time interleukin 6 levels and systemic inflammation was greatly blunted. So there's a lot of things that seemed counter intuitive that actually turned out to be beneficial. By this whole myokyne concept.

Adam [00:21:35] So your gut feeling however is that myokynes are good.

Doug [00:21:41] Yeah I think it's is simple is this. And I kind of concluded the talk. So humans fall under. And you mentioned this in your email the whole classification of living organisms wonder King Philip came over for good sex as the mnemonic that I learned and you had a one that was less offensive.

Adam [00:22:06] Soup probably want. I went for the sex.

Doug [00:22:10] One of the distinguishing characteristics of animals is movement. That is the key distinguishing feature of that kingdom and movement is so important to us because for animals without movement you can't get food. You can't keep from becoming food. It's as simple as that. And at the conclusion of the talk I thought movement is life. That's basically all there is to it. If you want everything bad that can happen to a human to happen immobilize them and over feed them. Movement is life and I believe strongly based on the experience that you and I have had in this field that movement against resistance is life elevated it takes it to another level. That is just much much better and I think it is really as simple as that and I do for that reason think that the discovery of myokynes has been an amazing thing and that I believe that this chemical messaging is nature's way of saying movement is good movement against resistance is even better.

Adam [00:23:23] Yeah well amen. Let's talk about Simon Melov's work a little bit because it isn't hyperbole to say that high intensity strength training can actually reverse aging. Is that hyperbole?

Doug [00:23:36] No, and he proved it and I was that research is at least 10 years old now and I like you I know you do just kind of everyone so I'll sit down with the laptop or get on a computer and just kind of plow through Pub Med and see what's out there. I just stumbled across the article and I love that article that gives you the answer in the title of the article and it's saying that resistance training reverses aging in skeletal muscle, that's the name of the article online. Well damn I'm a click on that one. It was truly astounding. They used a statistical technique called the false discovery rate to discover gene expression that was markedly different in advanced age than it was in youth. And they identified. I can't remember as close to 200 different genes as candidates and then they apply to 16 week strength training protocol to elderly subjects. And measure their gene expression before and after. And what they found is that the conclusion of the study of the gene expression had reverted to the same type of gene expression that you saw in twenty five year olds in 16 weeks. And when you actually dig into the methods section of the paper and you look at the quality of strength training that was done compared to what you and I are used to saying it was pretty darn mediocre. Yet you had these results that were just completely astounding. You know this was in mitochondrial DNA where they were looking at these genes which is very well preserved DNA. And it's also DNA that is integral to the cellular functioning of everything and the organisms. It's not just the icing it's the sprinkles on top of icing in terms of genetic expression. My immediate thought was wow this changes everything. I mean our most ancient literature is about seeking the fountain of youth. And there it was. And you and I both know that what happened afterwards was nothing.

Adam [00:25:46] Unbelievable.

Doug [00:25:46] I thought Man I'm going to. We couldn't build facilities fast enough to train clients and...

Adam [00:25:53] No if there was a pill that would do that.

Doug [00:25:56] You remember how resveratrol flew off the shelves when that research came out and junk like a 16 percent lifespan increase in flap worms. And people were like spin and big bucks buying it off the shelf. But we're talking about bona fide age reversal at the molecular cellular level in humans. And nothing happened because what was required was to get off your ass and do hard work. And that was the difference. I mean the kind of person that's willing to get up go out pay good money for someone to make them work really hard and be uncomfortable. To reap the benefits. That's just a different kind of person and that's you know I'm I'm okay with that being a minority population. I wish it would be more but it's a special kind of person and that's why I love training clients you know.

Adam [00:26:57] And you see it day and as an emergency room physician you must see the problem associated with the loss of strength.

Doug [00:27:07] Me & my wife was talking about this today before the podcast and because we went to a Starbucks today we had to run some errands and we went to a Starbucks. She always gets this white peach tea it's unsweetened she likes it. So I went to order it today and lo and behold it comes to the door and it's sweetened. So we're like tap on the window at the drive through us like we said I'm sweet and you go sweet like oh we're sorry. Starbucks has changed the formulation. It only comes sweet now it's brewed into the bag and that's the way it is. And we believe in you know we've got an alternative. We're leaving on the schedule so plenty. I really do think it almost borders on conspiracy theory that every big empty out there seems determined to force feed us the shit that's gonna make us sick. It's gonna make us fat and with metabolic syndrome and cancer and diseases because I really do think there's just so much profit in people being sick that that's what we're getting. The fact that we had corn and grain subsidies back in the Great Depression and we couldn't just unwind those now it's a requirement that we have 10 percent ethanol in our gasoline so that we can continue to propagate those grain subsidies and the fact that we have to have 10 percent gasoline in our gas tanks is probably a major driving reason why the vast majority of population in this country has been turned into human brain disposal machinery. Oh well yeah we're just sicker than hell and I mean when I go to work. I mean I can't even begin to describe to you how sick and deconditioned people are. It is rare for me to pick up a patient that has less than 30 medications.

Adam [00:28:53] Jesus.

Doug [00:28:53] It is rare for me to pick up a patient that has not been at the E.R. or in the hospital within the past two weeks is just a revolving door. I went from especially where I could like you know make major turnaround on people a major saves. And now it's just a revolving door of trying to put the wheels back on and they fall back off and come back really really slid on our overall health status.

Mike [00:29:24] This reminds me of when my dad was in the hospital he had heart failure a few years ago and we've covered this on a previous podcast but when he was there he was diabetic and this special Diabetic Menu had all sorts of incredibly high levels of carbohydrates on a special diabetic menu, there was pasta even bread like the like. And I asked to see the nutrition said. I said what's. He just ordered two grilled cheese sandwiches and she goes What do you do have a problem with the cheese? I said no I get that this is the clinical dietitian at the hospital and I was like Oh my God I printed it out. I took a picture of it. I was like Oh my God I can't believe this is the special Diabetic Menu at a hospital for someone who is recovering from a fem pop a bypass surgery.

Doug [00:30:14] It is mind blowing know I operate on the two ends of the spectrum my whole life was a barbell including my interaction with humans. It's a barbell strategy where on one end I got the sickest of the sick and on the other end I got my clients and the. The disparity between the two is just so astounding that you know the cognitive dissonance every day when I go to work and do what I do is just unbelievable sometimes.

Adam [00:30:41] Yeah well you and when we were talking in person at the conference you and I were talking about exactly this.

Doug [00:30:46] And your wife works in an ICU. Does she not?

Adam [00:30:49] She did she. She did work in ICU. Yes and she has experience similar things and now she's working in oncology. Speaking of what Mike just talked about being fed grilled cheese from a diabetic menu it also amazes me how little the cancer doctors are talking about nutrition to their oncology patients. It's pretty much nonexistent and this is like a high end Oncology Group. Those those conversations frustrate me to no end.

Doug [00:31:16] And I got a weird story. This is not science. This is purely anecdote. I had a client my place been open for more than 20 years now had a client that had you know just out of blue who had a seizure. Part of the workup got a C.T. scan is actually one of my partners diagnosed her with an astrocytoma of the brain highly malignant brain tumor. And this was probably early 2000. Just when the whole low carb ketogenic thing was kind of taken off but I knew there were some literature on ketogenic diets in relation to brain cancer and seizure disorders and things like that just made the suggestion she latched onto it and over the course of a year or 18 months the tumor shrunk and then became undetectable. But they went ahead. They recommended that she still go through some chemo and radiation therapy had a lot of radiation therapy actually develop some mild dementia as a consequence of the radiation. She had a fall and had a laceration about a week ago and I ended up seeing her in the E.R. but still alive. Still no return of tumor. This just gets to the whole oncology discussion that we're not talking about you know ketogenic diet carbohydrate restriction. The things that might be driving cancer metabolism and the other thing is is using diet and high intensity exercise as adjuvant therapy to chemotherapy and more traditional treatments I think should start to become a standard of care. I mean they can show that Interleukin 15 which is one of the major myokynes release that inhibits myostatin promotes muscle growth but also has been shown in vitro and in vivo. That means in the test tube and in the animal to actively arrest growth and kill breast cancer cells. So I mean there's a strong argument to be made for high intensity exercise as adjunct therapy to chemotherapy. I do have an oncologist that will occasionally send me clients PRE Chemo just to kind of build up their muscle mass in their strength to give them a higher ceiling to start from when they start doing chemo. But there's not really been any discussion yet of the potential anti neo plastic effects of this myokyne release and what it could mean.

Adam [00:33:48] Myokyne release through high intensity exercise which doesn't take a lot of time to do it and think about it. And some good nutrition does carbohydrate restriction movement. This stuff is in our control.

Doug [00:33:58] Right.

Adam [00:33:58] It's so within our control. We don't have.

Doug [00:34:02] Really in terms of moving the needle on doing anything beneficial. The things that are within our control move the needle a hell of a lot more than the medication regiment. I mean if they could get the kind of percentage benefit that's documented by those sort of interventions in a pill drug manufacturer would just like go completely bonkers over something of that efficacy.

Adam [00:34:28] I agree. Well we've got to wrap it up now but let's end on that. That says it all. I mean if you're not motivated to go based on all this stuff that we're finding out it is start doing some high intensity exercise get moving and maybe pay attention to your nutrition then then I don't know I don't know.

Doug [00:34:45] The time commitment or maybe one thing but the time commitment is just so minimal and the reward relative to the time is hugely disproportionate. It's just a win win you know.

[00:34:56] Big bang for your buck.

Mike [00:34:57] Doug. He's happy to be a part of the minority though.

Adam [00:35:00] Yeah. Well thank you so much Doug I really appreciate it.

Doug [00:35:04] My pleasure, it's been a fun talk.

Arlene [00:35:08] This has been the Inform fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman. For over 20 years Inform fitness has been providing clients of all ages with customized personal training designed to build strength fast. Visit inform fitness dot com for testimonials blogs and videos on the three pillars exercise nutrition and recovery.

View Details

On this episode, we bring back biomechanics’ expert, Bill DeSimone, to discuss an exercise technique called ‘Negative’ Training. Negatives are performed by substantially slowing down the lowering phase (negative phase) of the repetition, thereby, increasing the intensity of the exercise you are performing.

Bill starts off addressing the recent surge in popularity of Negative training and its subcategories; Negative Only training, Forced Negatives, Static Contractions and Negative Emphasized training. We cover:

Can Negatives build bigger muscles compared to conventional high intensity protocols?
Thoughts on when to use negatives as a good tool. Different types of negative protocols.
A novel way of looking at ‘plateaus’ – the point where the trainee doesn’t seem to be getting any stronger.
The potential dangers of negative training and how to avoid the big mistakes?

Listen to this episode and get positively InFormed on negative training. Enjoy!

Negative Push-up video: https://youtu.be/65JduvWc8AE

Negative Chin-up video: https://youtu.be/B44dYlm5H_8

Failed Squat video: https://youtu.be/8NAEEeqVrag

Bill DeSimone Website: Optimalexercisenj.com

Bill DeSimone - Congruent Exercise: https://www.facebook.com/CongruentExercise

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

For a FREE 20-Minute strength training full-body workout & to find a location nearest you:

http://bit.ly/Podcast_FreeWorkout

Inform_DeSimone 2_July 14 Transcript

Arlene [00:00:59] On this episode Adam and Mike welcome back biomechanics expert Bill DeSimone to discuss an exercise technique called negative training.

Bill [00:01:08] You're not proving that negative only training or positive negative or no negative is no better or worse. They all work. I think the real value of playing with the negative is it helps you get a little extra mileage out of a given weight.

Adam [00:01:23] We're back with Bill DiSimone again biomechanics expert from Cranberry New Jersey.

Mike [00:01:34] This show we're going to talk about something very very very negative.

Adam [00:01:37] Yes negative. Want to stay positive but we have to get negative. All right. So again current events and you know they've been some books out recently touting the negative portion of weight lifting. Those of you don't know that negative is the lowering of the weight when you're when your weight training and the positive motion is when you're lifting the weight. So there is a school of thought out there been there for a long time but it's becoming popular again and that is that the negative portion of the repetition is actually more beneficial than the positive portion or if you emphasize negative only type training that you get better results meaning to a lot of people bigger muscles and we're going to talk about what's being shown out there what the truth is what the science is if there is any validity to the fact that negatives have some kind of magical benefit or should we just be doing nice normal slow reps positive and negative and you know leaving it at that. So what would you like to say about that Bill?

Bill [00:02:37] Funny you should ask Adam. Just off the top of my head I feel like Sam Kennison with my rant.

Adam [00:02:47] Hopefully not as loud as, or as dead.

Bill [00:02:51] Beginning of the year roaming right. Yeah he's kind of dead. Think of a more recent comic who yells a lot. I don't know. It was tragic my car crash. I just get that I deserve a cheap joke I wasn't. I don't really know the guy. Anyway where were we. Where was it. So where was I. After the new year in a bookstore looking at the brand new crop of diet and fitness books I stumble onto one that I won't name we can put it we can put the information in links I don't I'm not looking to make enemies here. So it's predominately a diet book with a couple of chapters on exercise. The gist of his exercise program is to work as a week to 20 second sprints with recovery sort of like Martin Kibala type protocols and the other work out a week is supposed to be a Doug McGuff type protocol like a Big Five routine only negative only advocating just negative negative contractions in the workout. With the justification that it's more intense so you have to do a briefer so it ties into the whole just twice a week for 20 minutes in addition to that Sprint workout. I didn't buy the book and I went to look at look it up online and sure enough there is a Web site so looking through exercise information on the Web site and it's more negative emphasized exercise but almost reckless like lifting one dumbbell heavy dumbbell over your head lowering it with one arm for a press one a TRICEP EXTENSION we're doing a one legged squat you know to negative failure and then switching legs. So it it's really a cursory look really really superficial look at negative training and then since I signed up for my free report in the following month I got 30 emails text messages and voicemails from the website calling me to buy stuff. And when I poked around a little bit deeper in the store is where they have the nutraceutical sales that you can get on auto renew. The point of the book wasn't to convey information in a package. The point of the book was to get you hooked into this auto renew of the nutraceuticals, otherwise we use to call them supplements.

Mike [00:05:06] Like Infowars.

Adam [00:05:08] Yeah I was sensing a thousand times a ten second left ten seconds lowering.

Bill [00:05:12] So I would not regard that as a good source of negative training information that's pretty negative. Yeah. Wasn't I get a 30 second negative a 30 second positive 30 second negative thread and so according to this study a little eccentric little eccentric. Thanks.

Adam [00:05:30] Well having our friends Dr. James Fisher and Steele and company do some real research on negative training.

Bill [00:05:40] Well I think what those guys did was approximately the same degree.

Adam [00:05:44] So choose your poison if you like.

Bill [00:05:47] Yeah. More specifically what they did was compared to normal code cadence. Two seconds up four seconds down. I don't think that you're not proving that negative only training or positive negative or no negative. There's no better or worse with a super slow cadence 10 seconds up 10 seconds down and then a 10 second pass. They all work especially compared to not working out at all. I think I think the real value of playing with the negative if you're doing it safely for instance like is it helps you get a little extra mileage out out of a given weight. So when you start lifting weights and you know the old Nautilus protocol you do 12 repetitions you add five percent. Dropped down to 8 12 at 5 percent. That works for the first year or so a training. What do you start training like. I like this guy. Like 40 years or so he should be.

Adam [00:06:42] He's pointing at me.

Bill [00:06:43] He shouldn't be side right. He should be side raising like hundred pound dumbbells by this point. And you know no one side raises hundred pound dumbbells or how many people bench press 300 like that kind of literal progression. If you're training smart really have maybe a year but with some of these different wrinkles like Dardens for instance his recent stuff what it does is it allows you to get a little more effort out of a working weight. So the other book that came out.

Adam [00:07:09] Of me in other words a negative kind of holding the negative value so you get know 10 seconds out of out of a set because you're just holding it.

Bill [00:07:18] You can manipulate the negative right. So for instance Darden also had a book out in January where he's got a slightly different scheme. The 30 second negative 10 reps 30 second negative again. What he's done with that is he's tricked you into getting to 90 seconds with a weight. All right so if you would ordinarily have done 10 reputations I can't do eleven. Now you add the add an incremental weight but it drops it down to two or three repetitions or worse your form gets thrown off.

Mike [00:07:50] As prolonging the road time a little bit as well.

Bill [00:07:55] You know you're extending the set you're making that given weight harder before you go into right form breakdowns.

Mike [00:08:02] Right. Which is a pretty good thing though.

Bill [00:08:04] Especially for the good.

Mike [00:08:11] But David just ended the podcast.

Bill [00:08:13] But especially for those of us who've been doing this stuff you know. Yeah.

Adam [00:08:20] My contribution.

Bill [00:08:21] But especially for those who have done this a long time or if you have a client you've been training for years. Like I said on that next increment of weight throws their form off. It's a way you're still using that weight they can handle safely but you can still get more effort out of it.

Adam [00:08:36] Yeah I find myself using with my clients naturally doing some negative when I raise the weight and it's a little bit more aggressive than I thought it was. And it turns out that you can only get like three reps out of it. So instead of stopping the set and lowering the weight I had them do some negatives with that weight again to get some more inroad and to get some more time under under load but it's not something that I look at as a protocol in and of itself. It's more of a reaction to to a particular set to help get more time under load.

Bill [00:09:09] Yes it's a tool as a tool. It's the same I was looking for it's the same it's the same muscle whether you're lifting it and lowering it or just lowering it or any combination like you're always gonna be. Well you're always going to be quote stronger lowering than lifting whether you whether you do extra negative training or not that's just the way muscles work.

Adam [00:09:33] Yes.

Bill [00:09:33] But you're not stronger. It takes less energy to release a contraction than to create one.

Adam [00:09:38] Correct.

Bill [00:09:38] So that's why Darden's original protocol tool or Jones two seconds up four seconds down that's why you can heat failure at 10 and if somebody helps you do a couple of more reps you can continue lowering for two or three more you can lift but you can't lift that. That's right. I think that what Darden has done in its last couple of books instead of new wrinkles on old material he's put a lot more attention into manipulating the negative in each book has a little different system. They're all just again they're all just techniques to use and I have really spoken to about about this where I'm sure this comes from the years of experience he has training himself in clients and realizing you can't always add 5 percent to the bar.

Mike [00:10:24] Right.

Bill [00:10:24] If you guys remember and they all super slow tactical manual Hutchins tells the story of training Flanagan in the leg extension machine he would do a strict set they'd add weight keep pushing to feel like keep pushing failure until they are using a phenomenal amount of weight. But he realized the form had had deteriorated. So he backed off the weight until he can get good form again and end up going back to the original weight. And every time he got to a certain point the form broke down. And those guys those guys are pretty instrumental in hit.

[00:10:54] So it's not that they didn't understand the protocol.

Mike [00:10:55] If they hit it if that's diminishing returns and actually like sort of exist like people who are like 80 would they be lifting 4000 pounds right a leg press by the time they were hitting. That's right There's a certain point where you're kind of hitting your head with good form you know hitting that maximum.

Adam [00:11:10] But you know what I like to say and remember I remember this conversation one of our clients came into my office and I was with Mike and she was 60 years old and she's been training with us for like six years right. Even longer. And she said you know Adam I don't know if this is working anymore I haven't really gotten much stronger over the last three years. You know I'm kind of plateaued you know even though she's probably 400 percent stronger than she was when she started. She hasn't increased in the last three years. And I said congratulations.

Bill [00:11:43] That's right. You haven't lost either.

Adam [00:11:45] Right. And if you like and she was like Like what. Like she couldn't believe I answered that way like I didn't take it as a negative thing. I said Congratulations you're 60 years old.

Bill [00:11:54] Hey hey hey hey hey.

Adam [00:11:54] And you are strong for 60 years old and you're a lot stronger than you were. And you know you haven't lost muscle in the last three years as you said just now Bill and she was like huh. Never thought of it that way before.

Bill [00:12:07] Because if you if you don't train normal is to get less dense bones and lose muscle.

Mike [00:12:12] Yeah I think I think what has to for people to understand is to really understand that there is an expectation that if you do not do something you know an exercise program with weight lifting you're going to lose strength over time from 30 on approximately you know.

Bill [00:12:27] That's very nice of you. Maybe a little longer. OK. That's right. I think I think that's. You know most of the books we have on you pop pop books on exercise. Ultimately they're aimed at beginners who can progress dramatically but you can't you can't keep it up indefinitely. I mean you know look at Arnold you see videos of him working out he's using light weights.

Mike [00:12:51] Right.

Bill [00:12:52] So again you have to get the point across. That was and this is where the negatives come in too right. The person comes in they do 10 reps with 50 pounds for four years in a row. They may feel like getting stagnant. We know they're not getting weaker so that's really a great accomplishment. Yeah. So now this is where manipulating the negative comes in play you gonna do 30 second slow lift 10 reps another 30 seconds slow.

Mike [00:13:17] That's the good news with this study that if there really is no difference you do it losing variations to try keep engaged.

Bill [00:13:23] You can play with it just to engage the client because again we're in the people business.

Mike [00:13:27] Right.

Adam [00:13:28] I see I see a negative in the negatives. I just thought of one.

Bill [00:13:31] Well that's eccentric.

Adam [00:13:32] God I just I just thought one.

Adam [00:13:37] As we were saying before you can handle more weight with the negative than you can with the positive. Sometimes people will take a weight that they know they can handle and negative but they can really can handle on the positive and I see a danger there I see. That's good.

Bill [00:13:51] I would agree with you.

Adam [00:13:52] Yeah throwing away weight opt into the positive position and hoping that you can maintain it and control it in a negative position. It's not unnecessary. It's not a risk that I think isn't necessary to take because you know you hear oh negative train negative trainer can handle more. So let's load up all the weight right now and then throw it into the positive position or lifting it up as fast as we can because there's no way I can lift this kind of weight but I can lower it slowly or slow as I can and they try to see how slowly they can they can handle the negative and sometimes they overestimate how much weight they can handle negative and you get really hurt. I can see that happen.

Bill [00:14:28] See and this is the difference between the first book I mentioned which leads you there and Darden's last three books. Darden's a little more methodical in how you do it. That's why he's playing with the time not with the extra weight. In fact I didn't even says start with 80 percent of you the way you used to until you get the hang of the pacing. You know 30 years ago when I wrote about negative training maybe currently now it was with the idea of I can bench press 200 pounds but I can lower 300. And so you know they would make out a pipe seat t handles to put an end to the barbell so your partners could lift the extra heavy barbell up for you as crossed your door. But now by playing with the timing of the negative you're stuck. So for instance if you do 30 seconds down 30 seconds up 30 seconds down. That's a minute. You know one minute you're spending in a negative as opposed to a half actually as right as opposed to forcing seconds in a negative. Now you go back to the positive. You know it would you describe content to play though a conventional barbell squat or barbell bench press because you start you're locked out on both of those exercises. You're locked out.

Adam [00:15:38] With a lot of weight.

Bill [00:15:39] The mechanical easiest part. You start. I got it. You start the lowering. I got it I got it. I don't got it. And now the levers kick in and you are crushed. That's right.

Adam [00:15:49] Reminds me also of the bench put the pullover exercise all over.

Bill [00:15:53] Oh yeah yeah. I mean I know we talk that's another one but I there's a guy in one of the gyms I was working at. Doing a dumbbell pullover lying on his back dumbbell over his shoulders.

Adam [00:16:04] On a bench.

Bill [00:16:05] Over a bench lowers the dumbbell behind his head pulls a back up. He walks up the dumbbell rack takes a 50 pound dumbbell lies down is not too light, puts that weight back comes back with a seventy five pound dumbbell mat like he's saying too light when it's tight it's in the easy position he's lying on he gets a 90 pound dumbbell he got heavy 100 pound lies on his back dumbbell over his shoulder he goes yeah this is right lowers the dumbbell over his head and dislocates both shoulders. Now when I told the story around Darden Darden said why didn't he start from the floor.

Adam [00:16:40] Right.

Bill [00:16:40] As a guy you know why. Because it's never shown that way in pictures in muscle magazines.

Adam [00:16:45] Not only that but you'd have to like you're on a bench so you have to. But you want to start from the floor. You've got to reach all the way back.

Bill [00:16:51] But you would know Darden was right. You would know right away it's too heavy.

Adam [00:16:55] Yes but it's hard to be in that position that's why. Oh it's just dance. That's right. It's that awkward.

Bill [00:16:59] And it's never in the magazines never to take it that way.

Adam [00:17:01] And the thing is though if we were getting back to negatives I mean like negatives have been shown at this point and it makes sense to me because I have never seen any tremendous progress or different progress in all my years training from doing negative only training or working with just negatives or emphasizing negatives. You know again it's a good tool in the toolbox. It's fun to play around with adds a little variety and there's something to that to stay motivated to work out over the years. But but to start getting into these dangerous levels and that's that's the fear I always have. You know the fear I have is you have somebody like a Darden and we have people that have these esoteric conversations about negatives and the benefits of them and the subtle benefits of them and all of a sudden it becomes a fad. All of a sudden you know they take this out of context this negative idea out of context and next you know negatives are the best thing since sliced bread. So uninformed people that are just picking up on it on a trend are starting to always negative only training not understanding you know the dangers that they're going into about this and they're not really realizing that it's just not that much better if at all from conventional training they think it's a magic too and they really start emphasizing this protocol. And again more often than not people are getting hurt or disillusioned at the very least but by all this stuff. And that's why we're doing this podcast I guess.

Bill [00:18:28] I was going to say that's why that's why we work the way we work.

Adam [00:18:31] I just I just wish more people picked up on this and their needs.

Mike [00:18:38] I mean that guy maybe you're the man to do it like I mean a pardon the expression but like for Dummies version of this information.

Adam [00:18:45] I would say has it actually is a good chance a good opportunity to plug his book. Isn't this book that you just handed to me.

Mike [00:18:52] Is it more for our trainers.

Bill [00:18:53] Well that's that's about 6 7 years old now. Yeah. You know I keep I keep lying and feared I go to the bookstore. You know Jillian Michaels or whoever the fitness star of today is going to come up with joint friendly fitness before I get to it and I've been afraid that for five years now and so hasn't happened so I really got to finish it.

Adam [00:19:11] You know what. Because I don't know. I don't think people care. Again exercise the lifestyle. This isn't sexy. You know doing an exercise the right way biomechanically this way and you have to do any of the other ways. I mean so like over right away people's skepticism just kicks in when they say how is it possible that one way of doing a bicep curl one way of doing a chest press one way is not my glutes is enough. And you know so. So as much as the research and the science kind of shows no differences between all these crazy protocols we still in our minds want to believe I guess that that. How is that true it can't be true it just can't be true that all you have to do is these five compound exercises ala Doug McGuff his big five exercises or just a set of push ups and pull ups you know three times a week is enough to keep you strong and flexible. And you know it's too hard to believe. So I don't think you have to worry about what's right. Jillian Michaels stealing is.

Bill [00:20:13] A little dated reference. Now he's gone kind of worked up isn't he.

Adam [00:20:19] Just something. You know one thing sets me off and set me off. No it grinds my gears.

Mike [00:20:26] What Adam?

Adam [00:20:27] Family Guy reference.

Bill [00:20:30] So anyway. So anyway the negative always on the negative train. So part of what I think prompted Darden to look into this was the export equipment which is gonna plug x for US equipment. Now that doesn't matter because it's only it's only in Philadelphia and there's places here in Philadelphia. And what they do is they mechanically tilt the weights stack so that when you lift the weights stack is going on up the incline plane. And then when you lower it the weights X swings up. And now you're loading the full weight of the other.

Adam [00:21:05] So in layman's terms what he just said was this they have these machines now that because we understand that you can lift more weight into positive motion the lifting motion than you can the lowering motion. I mean but I'd like to say I'm sorry. Sorry. Just because you can lift more weight a negative portion versus the lifting portion what this machine actually does is when you lift the weight it's a certain weight. And then when you're coming down it actually increases it by 20 30 percent which is exactly this strength differential between the positive and negative for most muscle groups. So it actually makes naturally the negative harder. So it's a very balanced resistance through a full range of motion. And again it's just a really nice way of working out and getting a more efficient way of working. But it's not it's not something I would necessarily call negative type training it's just compensating for the fact that in our negatives we are stronger. So the weight adjusts for that is no different from the cams on machines that that make the weight lighter during our weak positions and makes a weight heavier in a stronger position.

Mike [00:22:06] Dynamically and making the right appropriate for that for the.

Adam [00:22:10] It's a great concept it's a it's a brilliant machine. I've heard a lot about it you've you've used them and you love them Bill you know but for the cost you know.

Bill [00:22:19] Well if I had access if I had easy access to them I'd use them.

Adam [00:22:23] Sure was a big expense. It's really neat. Yeah.

Mike [00:22:26] They only exist in Philadelphia Florida part of Philadelphia.

Adam [00:22:30] But how much is each machine like 15 grand.

Bill [00:22:33] I think I think it's about you know five times what I spent on Nautilus nitro. So I think I think yeah I think about 15.

Adam [00:22:42] 12 15 grand per machine.

Bill [00:22:45] Yeah.

Adam [00:22:45] So I mean you know if you was a business man as a businessman you were saying yourself you know how do you get your return on your investment I mean New York City here I probably get away with it but most locations probably could not afford a hundred and fifty thousand set up for personal training.

Bill [00:23:02] Well where I am I couldn't raise my rates five times to compensate for the increased cost of the equipment anyway.

Adam [00:23:07] So but but it's a great machine. I felt like I want to go down to Philly and start using a machine that just so experienced that. But you know thing is this it's emphasizing negative so you don't have those machines you lower the weight a little bit and you figure out a way of getting 90 seconds of failure sets and because the negative is not 30 percent heavier each time you do it doesn't mean you can't get a really good workout and get really strong because you don't have a machine that actually makes a negative 30 percent heavier. It's a beautiful thing when you're when you're you know geeks like us and you know and you understand these things and how cool would it be if the negatives automatically got heavier appropriately. But the bottom line is after we geek out for a while we realize you know we can do the same thing with pretty much any weight that that's used correctly. So then I may stop my fantasy and I go back to work.

Bill [00:24:00] And you said it though you geek out for a while it keeps you charged. It keeps you interested in training because after 40 years 30 I suspect Jones was not writing a 1970s thinking Yeah. Fifty years from now people are going to train this way. You know I don't think that was built into the program. Well you know maybe you're saying the same people we're going to train this way his training his way right now. Nineteen seventy five. Twenty twenty. They can be tracked those same guys are gonna be working out well what do you mean.

Adam [00:24:30] But nothing has really changed. I mean he probably didn't think people should be working out the same way 50 years from now because in his mind you know biomechanics is biomechanics until the function of the muscles change over time the way you project size shouldn't change either. So I don't know. I don't get into the head of Martha Jones First of all is already.

Bill [00:24:48] Well to bit more relevant to what we do know. It's a fine line between keeping clients interested with a little novelty and Anything Goes and completely losing your train of thought.

Adam [00:25:01] Then there's a middle ground for sure. Yes. Just because you know like with my routines don't change very often because I know what works for me. And I don't need the variation because and I don't think of working as a lifestyle and I don't get bored I don't care. You know it's me and as I mentioned earlier exercises in the same category as brushing my teeth you know I do it because I have to do it and I do it as efficiently as possible I move on my life. But for those that need more motivation for those that do need variation I'm all for it as somebody runs a business and trains a lot of people. I obviously want to keep their interests and it's more important to keep their interests sometimes and to do a couple inefficient exercises to keep their interest as long as I'm not putting them in harm's way. I'm all for it. You know I'm not above that for sure. So anyway there we have it. Once again these magic ideas that we have about negatives or things like you know there's nothing magical about it. It's just worked out according to most on joint function. There are different variations you could do if things keep things interesting but basically keep things safe as always do it according to muscle and joint function as best as you can. And you know join a book club.

Bill [00:26:10] I can't top that. No you got me.

Adam [00:26:16] We'll end it there.

Mike [00:26:17] Thanks Bill.

Adam [00:26:17] Thanks. As always.

Arlene [00:26:19] This has been the Inform Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman, for over 20 years. Inform Fitness has been providing clients of all ages with customized personal training designed to build strength fast. Visit Inform Fitness dot com for testimonials blogs and videos on the three pillars exercise nutrition and recovery.

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We continue our conversation with Gary Taubes, journalist and author of the bestseller Why We Get Fat. In this episode Gary reveals a pet peeve of his: the establishment still considers Ketogenic and Low Carbohydrate/High Fat (LCHF) diets very unhealthy ways to eat, even though the recent resurgence of those diets has generated scores of clinical trials that appear to support the safety and effectiveness of this way of eating. Exasperated, he wrote an article on the subject, which was published in Canada’s, The Globe and Mail. Gary gets emotional when he relates a story a doctor told him about a patient, newly diagnosed with type-2 diabetes, whose health improved dramatically by following a LCHF diet. We discuss President Clinton’s success on a vegan diet. Gary has a strong response for those who think that such success stories are just anecdotes, not science. We then consider what to do when your doctor tells you to get off the LCHF diet regardless of your success. The episode ends with speculation on whether LCHF diets will ever be endorsed by the American Dietary Association (ADA) and the American Heart Association (AHA). http://garytaubes.com/

Gary’s books:

http://garytaubes.com/works/books/good-calories-bad-calories/

http://garytaubes.com/works/books/why-we-get-fat/

http://garytaubes.com/works/books/the-case-against-sugar-2016/

Gary’s Globe And Mail article:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/minimal-carbs-lots-of-fat-incredible-results-but-no-science/article37402123/

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen
For a FREE 20-Minute strength training full-body workout & to find a location nearest you:

http://bit.ly/Podcast_FreeWorkout

Inform_Taubes 2_June 11 Transcript

Arlene [00:00:01] The Inform Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman and co-host Mike Rogers is a presentation of Inform Fitness studios, a small family of personal training facilities specializing in safe efficient high intensity strength training. On our bi monthly podcast Adam and Mike discuss the latest findings in the areas of exercise nutrition and recovery with leading experts and scientists. We aim to debunk the popular misconceptions and the urban myths that are so prevalent in the fields of health and fitness. And to replace those sacred cows with scientific based up to the minute information on a variety of subjects. We'll cover exercise protocols and techniques nutrition sleep recovery the role of genetics in the response to exercise and much more.

Arlene [00:00:59] On this episode Why We Get Fat. Part two. We welcome back national best selling author Gary Taubess.

Gary [00:01:06] If it's a physician who is overweight. I say Why don't you try it yourself. An experiment. Not going to kill you to go without carbs for two months. You know if at the end of two months you haven't don't feel healthier you haven't lost weight your blood pressure hasn't come down your waist size hasn't gotten smaller. Go back to eating potato chips.

Adam [00:01:27] Well we're back with Gary Taubes. He is the co-founder of Nutrition Science Initiative and author of The Case Against sugar Why We Get Fat and the tome Good Calories Bad Calories. And I'm here again with Mike Rogers and Neil Holland to continue our conversation. I would like to talk about a recent article that you wrote in Canada's The Globe and Mail. You make so many good points and I hope we get to cover most of them. And we'll put a link to it in our show notes. Totally worth the read. And correct me if I'm wrong Gary but I believe it's a response to the recent resurgence in popularity of the low carbohydrate high fat diets particularly the ketogenic diet. Or like we mentioned in the last episode Keto for short and while you admit that much more research needs to be done you take exception to calling Ketogenic Diets a fad, correct?.

Gary [00:02:17] Well yeah. Well again the reason I wrote that is there's this dichotomy that emerge. So when I look back I got into this right around the year 2000 and since then when I first started doing this research there were I figured there are maybe a dozen physicians in America who were pushing low carb high fat ketogenic diet you know and half of them had written books about them. So you know you had. The Atkins and they the Eades Mike and Mary Nan Eades and the sugar Buster people and at the time if you want to lose weight they accepted the idea was you had to eat less basically that you had to eat a calorie restricted diet maybe cut 500 calories or a thousand calories day. And it had to be a low fat diet and these ketogenic diet would kill people you know Atkins was a quack and he was a con man and a shyster and that's it. So now you come 19 years or 18 years into the future and we've now got thousands maybe a few tens of thousands of physicians around the world who have decided like you guys that these low carb high fat ketogenic diet just make their patients healthier. So if you can get people with obesity and diabetes who eat this way it's a way of eating the short term diet. You can put their obesity in remission and then one way to think about it you get significant weight loss you can put their diabetes in remission and get them out their diabetes drugs and their hypertension drugs and they have chronic pain that tends to get better and. A few years ago 2017 there was a letter to the Huffington Post co-authored by a hundred plus physicians in Canada saying look. Not only do we. Low carb high fat ketogenic diet. But that's what we prescribe our patients. We see these remarkable results and we can't unsee them. That's a phrase these Canadians like Can't unsee what we're seeing and we're not changing we're not going back to the you know we were we used to eat the conventional diets are the healthy conventional healthy way of eating our patients. Did you know some of us were vegetarians and most were vegan some of them were world class athletes and they were getting fatter or they were getting diabetic they had become pre diabetic anyway and when they shifted to this low carb high fat Atkins like eating they got healthy and when they prescribed it to their patients and then the flip side is you still have organizations like every year U.S. News and World Report has a committee of you know quote expert nutritionists and authorities who decide on what the healthiest diets are. And they always say the same thing. And the low carb high fat ketogenic diet come in the least healthy diets imaginable. I think they included 39 or 40 diet and these ketogenic diet were 35 to 40 and really basing a they're basing it on the assessment of the expert and the experts are the people who for the last 50 years have been telling us we should eat less and not too much and mostly plans you know a Mediterranean diet all the things we've been doing and getting fatter anyway doing so. I wanted to sort of explore this conflict. And. You've got physicians more and more every year saying if I can get my patients to eat this way I can get them healthy. Get them off their drugs.

Adam [00:05:55] You quoted one doctor saying you know maybe it's not that my patients aren't listening to my old advice. Maybe my advice stinks or has in the past.

Gary [00:06:04] Well this is one of the problems with people like us is we can sound like zealots. So you. Spend your whole life getting fatter and you try everything and you're dieting all the time and then tell me try this low carb high fat thing and your excess weight goes away or you're diabetic which is great you've got your physician who's got a patient who the Type 2 diabetes let me tell you the story I tell in this article which resonated with me and I'll see if I could tell it without tearing up. This was by a physician associate professor at the in Virginia and she gets a call one day from our client an endocrinologist who says look I got a patient in my office. She's 24 years old. She thought she was healthy and I just diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes and her hemoglobin A1 C is over 10 which means when hemoglobin A1 C you guys you know as a measure of blood sugar control and under six, under five and a half is considered healthy over 10, you are supposed to start the patient on insulin. So she's got this woman sitting in her office who she's supposed to start on insulin doesn't even know that she was sick. And she calls this Dr. Sue over and she says who can you help or who's got a six month waiting list to get into a practice. But she says Send her over. Tell her I'll see you tomorrow morning and the next morning this woman comes in and Sue explains to her how do you eat a low carb high fat Ketogenic diet. What do you have to do which is just don't eat carbs and replace it with fat. And says I've got a course that starting on. Yeah you come to the course that I teach every Thursday evening will teach you how to pick foods how to cook and all this stuff. But by even Thursday the woman has already started. And then Sue tells me. Let's flash forward three months later she just came in a few weeks ago for her three month checkup. She's lost 30 pounds. Her hemoglobin A1 C is down below 6. She's no longer diabetic and she says I tell her this and she's crying and I'm crying and I call the endrocronologist. Who comes over and she's crying and Sue is telling me this. Because you've got to see that I've given this woman her life back instead of managing a chronic disease for entire life which is what this you know what doctors do with type 2 diabetics. Do you know that routine some managing drugs and increasing insulin doses until they eventually die from the the side effects of the disease. Instead she's healthy. Sue says I feel like I've cured cancer.

Adam [00:08:45] Right so in a sense she did.

Gary [00:08:48] Yeah I mean it's it's how can you stop these people from being zealous and passionate about this. And then when I told you in our previous episode I interviewed over 100 doctors for my my next book or it's about 90 physicians some dietitians. There was a dentist few exercise physiologist chiropractors on a lot of these people said it's like medicine is one form. I don't go into medicine to manage disease. To manage chronic disease I wanted to medicine to make people healthier and now I can do it.

Adam [00:09:21] So what do you say when they hear your story your personal story with Atkins and even hear the story that you just told I mean they still say well that's great but it's still anecdotal.

Gary [00:09:31] Oh it's anecdotal and yeah it's an anecdote. What more can you make of it. And it depends who the person is. So if a physician is saying that's great it's just an anecdote. Then my response is OK it is an anecdote but there are. Hundreds of thousands of them out there. And what I would want you to do is next time you know your waiting room. Everyone's waiting rooms are getting more and more crowded with patients with obesity and Type 2 diabetes and hypertension metabolic syndrome it's called when these patients come in why don't you try this and see if this anecdote can be reproduced in your patient population if it's a physician who is overweight. I said Why don't you try it yourself as an experiment. It's not going to kill you to go without carbs for two months. You know if at the end of two months you haven't don't feel healthier you haven't lost weight your blood pressure hasn't come down your waist size hasn't gotten smaller. Go back to eating potato chips. I don't care but try it. And that's the message how do you get people to try it. Because again 20 years ago the assumption was if you did it you'd drop dead the next day. And when I wrote this New York Times magazine article about it I am said the end they described sitting in my local diner in New York which of course has since closed which one of the reasons we moved to Oakland. I love this place. I had breakfast there every morning in my life you know greasy eggs bacon sausage hold the potatoes hold the toast and I would look at the eggs and bacon and wonder how it's going to kill me. Clearly it's going to kill me. That's what we had been taught. And now at least 20 years later people accept that it's not. And so you could try and see what happens. See how you feel.

Adam [00:11:17] So given those anecdotal evidence then why do we even bought why we bother with studies almost like it's like obvious right that this works. So what do what do we need studies for.

Gary [00:11:27] OK. So that's the interesting thing because people say well there aren't long terms and you don't need a study to find out if you lose weight effortlessly on a diet. OK. So that you don't need. I could go on Atkins I could become vegan tomorrow and if I feel better. Great. Well you know that's I don't care what a study shows. Could I have I have tinnitus for instance my ears head buzzes All day long and if I were to become a vegan and the tinnitus went away that would be such a blessing that I would probably stay a vegan. By the way I had tinnitus before I tried Atkins so I don't have to link the two on. You know I think I had a symptom and you're gonna diet and the symptom goes away then X stick with the diet would you need to clinical trial for us to know one whether there's a better diet. So maybe I go vegan and my tinnitus gets a little better but if I went to go lactose vegetarian and added eggs and dairy to the vegan diet I would. The clinical trial would show that the tinnitus might get even better still so now I have a motivation to try it. Over lack lactose vegetarian diet the other thing you need clinical trials for is long term harm. Maybe this diet is going to kill us eventually maybe. And there are a couple ways to think about this. And I'll tell you my favorite I have a lot of acquaintances now in the world to one of them was a woman who on her Instagram account pointed out she'd lost she was 380 she went on the ketogenic diet she lost 150 pounds. And a friend started worrying that bacon would kill her. So they never cared about what I ate when I weighed 380. But now that I've lost hundred and fifty pounds are saying the bacon is going to kill me. Yeah it's hard to believe that she's not healthier at 230 with bacon than healthier at 380 with out but you could do clinical trials to find that out. Maybe there's something about eating bacon that she's going to chug along at 230 perfectly happy for 10 years and then our hearts gonna going to blow up whereas she might have lasted 30 years at 380 without bacon in clinical trials can give you a probabilistic estimate of whether that's going to happen.

Mike [00:13:42] I thought I was just thinking about like anecdotes and stuff like that and like for example like Bill Clinton a few years ago he read the China study I think and became a vegan and all of his health markers improved. And I say I'd like a guy that works for him then why. That's good. You know that it seems like something that doesn't really make sense for me and I don't have any desire to do that. I don't have any problems like he had before but I thought it was you know when people sort of look at examples like that I kind of like you know invite them to try it and see if it actually works out for them.

Gary [00:14:18] Well that's the thing in tone right. There was a period when this Netflix film what the health came down to what the health is vegan or vegetarian propaganda and it's compelling. If you don't know anything about the science and you watch this show you're likely to want to become vegan for your health not for ethical reasons but because you think it's the heathiest way to eat. And so I had doctors say to me What should I what do you think I should say to my patients coming in and who say I want to go vegan and I should just let them. You know it was fine just tell him let's let's do a you know a comprehensive panel of tests to see what your baseline health is. Because if you go vegan and you get less healthy then it's probably not the way to eat. And if you go vegan and you get healthier and you're happy that way that's fine. But then you would need the clinical trial to tell you is it healthier to go vegan or to go you know what else CHF ketogenic that the clinical trial could give you that information. It's interesting about Clinton because he did get healthier. You also always have to ask when people go me a vegetarian dislike when they go low carb high fat they give up a lot of the crap in their diet and the food like substances so they stop drinking beer and sodas and eating desserts and sweets and then somebody might say I go vegan and that means they also stop eating Cocoa Krispies for breakfast and instead ate, I don't know, a kale smoothie. So there are a lot of things to change and they feel healthier but you know it's because they gave up meat and as you notice as Clinton went along. He started to not look so good as a tremble in his hands.

Adam [00:15:59] Yeah, he looked a little guant.

Gary [00:16:02] I mean that being the spouse of a presidential candidate probably is exhausting so I can't swear I wouldn't look better and then I think I'm pretty sure he's not a vegan now.

Neil [00:16:16] Yeah, I'm pretty sure he gave that up.

Gary [00:16:17] Yeah. And that's the thing. So you try the diet and you might feel better in the first three months and then you find after a year you're not feeling so good. Then ideally you will try something else. One of the arguments I wanted to make in this Globe and Mail article one of the arguments I make in my new book is you know if we're we have some kind of chronic ailment whether it's excess fat or diabetes or hypertension or chronic pain or anything it makes sense to do these experiments and if somebody comes up to you and says You know I gave up carbs and my chronic pain went away and you've got a chronic pain problem I'd try giving up carbs and seeing if it works and if it does then you could decide if it's worth if you miss. The Donut beer chronic pain trade off. Maybe you miss donuts so much you're willing to live with the pain. I don't know but it makes sense to do these experiments because the medical community clearly has stopped helping us after awhile on these things.

Neil [00:17:20] Hey Gary I have a question. This kind of all has me thinking about the idea of how do you convince people they're skeptical despite seeing all these results. You know personally I remember I had a client once who was diabetic on the meds and I advised they they adhere to a low carb high fat diet. They lost like 80 pounds. They went into the doctor that their doctor was like This is wonderful we can get you off the meds what have you been doing. You know that person said what they'd been doing the doctor was like absolutely not you should be eating a couple of slices of whole wheat bread a day a sweet potato. He was concerned about Keto acidosis and so I put all this information studies together sent it to the doctor. Doctor refused to get on the phone with me but conveyed to the client your trainer is not incorrect. However I still want you to do what I said. So I'm just curious what you would say to people that you know it's hard to find a doctor that is going to it's going to be on board with this kind of stuff. And you know here we are trying to advise them.

Adam [00:18:28] Not as not as hard as it was 20 years ago, right Gary?.

Gary [00:18:31] I think so when it's getting easier and funny again and in my book I do have sort of steps the new book steps to go through the transition to this way of eating and the first step is find an informed doctor. And if you can't if you're a physician where we read at least one book on this subject then find another doctor. It's just you've got the wrong doctor anyway if they're that close minded. Yeah it's a problem. I mean it happens less and less what you're describing. I think more and more people become are they're having their minds open to the fact that this is a relatively you know the kind they're. Probably over 100 clinical trials suggesting this is a healthier way to eat than any other. So at the very least you know you say look why don't you tell your patient your physician might freak out especially like the LDL cholesterol goes up which often happens on these diets. So I mean it's fascinating. There's a company in San Francisco called Berta health which is putting type 2 diabetics on nutritional ketosis so basically ketogenic diet with health coaches and telemedicine physicians always on the other side of a telephone to help and their results they've now had patients who have been following for 2 years and they have 24 markers of cardiovascular risk and diabetes risk and twenty three of them get better. On this diet, one of them, LDL cholesterol gets worse which is God's joke because if physicians have been trained to think LDL cholesterol is the be all and end all heart health and so human health. You've got to convince your clients look this is what your physician might say and if he does say that then the client should say look I'm clearly healthier than I was. Can we just let me keep doing what we were doing and maybe we can just keep running tests and following my health status. And if something should go awry we can jump on it even if all LDL goes up and always put him on a low dose statin. I'm not a fan but they're cheap and other than that I'd just say get another doc... We can find a doctor in every state. There are 10 doctors in every state who are now informed about the health benefits of eating this way.

Adam [00:20:52] Do you think this controversy will end. I mean once and for all do you think the food pyramid will completely change to 2 DLC using American. In other words will the ACA finally say this is the way we should be eating the way they've been so staunch about the food pyramid all these for the last 60 years.

Gary [00:21:09] No I don't think the controvery will ever end. I think at some point they will say I mean at different levels of controversy. So they're already saying. Refined grains and sugar is funny. 20 years ago a healthy diet was defined by being a low fat low salt diet. Today they'll say it. You know it's got no sugars and no white bread. So they're moving in the right direction. They'll probably accept that these diets as they already will say that these diets can be used for a year because that's all of the clinical trials we have for weight loss or diabetes control and I think they'll move in that direction the USDA will probably take longer to get there because saying people should need a low carb diet is like saying people should not eat many of the food products that are agricultural industry creates and the U.S. Department of Agriculture is the supposed to support those agricultural industries. That's partially what they do. So it's hard for them to ever go there. I think we'll get to the point that some of these things already you hear people saying oh no one ever said it was only about calories in calories out. You know what it's like.

Mike [00:22:24] Gary how much does that. You mentioned the Cochrane Collaboration in your article and how you know basically what they've been able to find in regards to the biases and stuff but I really love in your article how you said Put simply if this were a legal case saturated fat would be easily acquitted. And I thought that was very interesting. But my my question is kind of about like aren't doctors aren't these organizations I mean is that does that have credibility with them t the Cochrane Collaboration. And why aren't they looking at that.

Gary [00:23:01] I guess the answer is no they don't really pay attention. An organization like the American Heart Association which will review these guidelines every five years will put together a committee of learned experts and the learned experts who are senior figures in the field and these senior figures in the field who have created in effect the conventional wisdom more they've been heralded the conventional wisdom and reinforced it. And then those experts will put together a committee of people they respect and the people they respect. This is true of all of us are people who think just like they do. This is sort of classic group thing phenomena. So these for the most part these organizations will just keep recapitulating what they've always said and it doesn't matter what anyone else says if somebody like the Cochrane Collaboration comes in and even the Cochrane thing I picked and chose what I want out of there. Abstract at the end of the abstract so they say there's no real evidence that saturated fat raises causes heart attacks and there's even less evidence that saturated fat will shorten your life. But there's some evidence and therefore maybe if these studies were done better we would have more evidence and so maybe people should limit saturated fat. And when I hear things like maybe people should limit saturated fat that also means the fact that maybe they shouldn't. And we don't know. So what if somebody like you know one of these dogma tests and the saturated fat world good read that Cochrane collaboration they would point to one sentence and I would point to another. What happens in these worlds is you know we all do and we all select the evidence we like that agrees with us.

Adam [00:24:51] Confirmation bias I think the call that.

Gary [00:24:53] Confirmation. We all do it. You can't escape it. So I mean we try a good scientist tries to escape it but it's difficult. So they'll point out that the glass is half empty and they'll point out that it's half full and I'll point out that it's half empty and then because it's half empty I think we could always butter and bacon. And I hope I'm right and because it's half full they say none of us should eat butter and bacon and they know they're right.

Adam [00:25:21] Well thanks Gary. Always as always is very insightful. Thank you for joining us. We appreciate it very much.

Gary [00:25:27] It was a real pleasure. Thanks guys.

Adam [00:25:29] Hopefully you'll come back on when the new book comes out. I'll be great.

Gary [00:25:32] I would love to. I would love to.

Arlene [00:25:34] This has been the Inform Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman. For over 20 years Inform Fitness has been providing clients of all ages with customized personal training designed to build strength fast. Visit Inform Fitness dot com for testimonials blogs and videos on the three pillars exercise nutrition and recovery.

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Biomechanics expert Bill DeSimone is back by popular demand for the 3rd time! In this episode, a deep look and discussion into the latest internet sensation—the barbell hip-thrust and related movements. What is a barbell hip-thrust? What are the benefits? Does it work as advertised? Is it worth the risk?

DeSimone, together with Adam and Mike go on to offer critical insight into potentially better alternatives, answer the most commonly asked questions, and moreover, remind us that not all exercises are created equal and each needs to be analyzed objectively for safety and efficacy. Listen and learn how we set apart the popular exercise crazes from those worth doing

BodyBuilding.com – Barbell Hip Thrust

https://www.bodybuilding.com/exercises/barbell-hip-thrust

Bill DeSimone Website

Optimalexercisenj.com

Bill DeSimone - Congruent Exercise

https://www.facebook.com/CongruentExercise

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

For a FREE 20-Minute strength training full-body workout & to find a location nearest you:

http://bit.ly/Podcast_FreeWorkout

Inform_DeSimone 1_May 23 Transcript

Arlene [00:00:01] The Inform Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman and co-host Mike Rogers is a presentation of informed fitness studios a small family of personal training facilities specializing in safe efficient high intensity strength training. On our bi monthly podcast Adam and Mike discuss the latest findings in the areas of exercise nutrition and recovery with leading experts and scientists. We aim to debunk the popular misconceptions and the urban myths that are so prevalent in the fields of health and fitness. And to replace those sacred cows with scientific based up to the minute information on a variety of subjects. We'll cover exercise protocols and techniques nutrition sleep recovery the role of genetics in the response to exercise and much more.

Adam [00:00:53] Greetings everybody. This is Adam Zickerman. Just wanted to let you know that we're going to be talking about for this episode an exercise called the barbell hip thrust and we're also going to be talking about related exercises such as the glute bridge. If you're not familiar with these exercises I recommend you going to our show notes and clicking on the link there to see what these exercises look like. You'll have a better idea of what we're talking about as we discuss this. Enjoy the show and thanks for listening.

Arlene [00:01:31] On this episode the barbell hip thrust and other exercise crazes. We welcome back biomechanics expert Bill DeSimone.

Bill [00:01:41] People's glutes burn and they get pumped up and clients may find that gratifying and you feel muscle get pumped. And again as a trainer with experience sometimes you do want to do something that registers on the client whether it has a kind of long term result or not because really the secret to a good butt is to be born with it then have the trainer take credit for it that's really the secret.

Adam [00:02:04] Bill DeSimone is a personal trainer specializing in joint friendly fitness as he likes to say he has over 30 years experience. Is a A certified health coach an orthopedic exercise specialist and he has his own studio called Optimal Exercise in Cranberry New Jersey. Where is that? His book Congruent Exercise which is basically my Bible subtitled How to make weight training easier on your joints is available in print and on Kindle. Joint friendly fitness emphasizes protecting your joints and spine as you get into shape and it applies material from anatomy biomechanics and rehabilitation to fitness goals. The result is you get more fit toned and flexible without the injuries associated with the more extreme approaches.

[00:02:51] Now Bill and I go back quite a while. How many years I don't know anymore. And I have to say and you know I don't really kiss your butt too often. But I have to say you really have changed my whole approach to exercise. When I read your material for the first time I mean I always knew that exercise had to think about safety but you really gave me the ins and outs of that. It wasn't just surface talk it was it was deep learning on on biomechanics that that I. I cannot look at a machine now without those numbers going through my head and levers and and strength curves. It's great. And the best part about is you've broken it down for somebody that doesn't have a degree in mechanical mechanics mechanical engineering and you able to just have the typical layperson actually understand this stuff. So kudos to you and that's why I have you on the show.

Mike [00:03:49] All the trainers feel that way and like not to kiss your butt also, Bill... We always learn something from you every time we have a conversation. I was very happy to have you back.

Bill [00:04:02] Well thanks. So injuring myself didn't go for nothing.

Adam [00:04:05] Exactly. So today we're gonna talk about something that's a kind of a pet peeve of yours and you actually asked me to talk about this with you. So I'm all for it because it's true. And what we're gonna be talking about is the barbell hip thrust or. And also glute bridges and something called a machine based glute bridge called the glute drive station. I think by Nautilus and companies is like that. So we're talking about the efficacy of basically glute bridges what they do for you. The barbell hip thrust so apparently the last dozen or so years the barbell hip thrust has become an Internet favorite. You have videos of attractive young ladies in skin tight clothes thrusting a barbell and it's really almost become a cliche on an Instagram more recently right Bill the Hollywood superheroes and really you see a lot of these barbell thrusts being done by NFL players. So let me ask you a question are we as trainers. In facilities such as ours where safety is of utmost importance though are we shortchanging our clients by not jumping on or shall I say thrusting on the bandwagon. Are we as trains passing of a passing up on some magical benefits by not you know dry humping a barbell.

Bill [00:05:29] So the short answer is no we're not missing anything. Okay. And what what set me off was a video of the Nautilus glute drive station which apparently came out in the spring of last year. Popped up on my LinkedIn feed and I saw all the fawning comments about it. I kind of snapped. So if you're determined to do this exercise the glute drive station is marginally safer than using a barbell for it.

Adam [00:06:03] All right. First of all I want to describe what a barbell hip thrust actually is and what it's for.

Bill [00:06:09] Well so what it looks like is the exerciser has a shoulder blades on a bench. Their feet are on the floor with the knees and their hips bent. And there's a barbell lying across the front of their hips and then you would push the barbell up vertically theoretically with your glutes extending the hip and the the the pitch for this. The tout is that's gonna give you a better butt it's going to leave lower back problems fix your knees help you run faster decrease the likelihood of hamstring injuries help you leave tall buildings in a single bound,.

Adam [00:06:46] So none of this is true?

Bill [00:06:47] You may have done that they may have gotten a bit carried away with the benefits.

Mike [00:06:51] The picture I think I get the end position is like you're in a virtual like bridge position like when you're in the top position.

Bill [00:06:56] Right. Exactly. So so your your straight you're going from where you're sitting on the ground with your shoulder blades on top of a bench and then you push it hopefully straight up and yes you'd be like you'd call it a bridge position.

Mike [00:07:12] Describe to the listener so they can understand what the final position is all that right.

Bill [00:07:17] So the first problem with the using a barbell for this is that if you don't prop the bench up against the power rack or against something that's not going to move when you get into position. You have a good chance of tipping the ball. The bench over. Now you land on your back and on your head on the metal bench with with the barbell I've no idea. Yeah but don't forget that part. Now I notice in like one of the early journal articles promoting this exercise in the picture the bench is propped up against a power rack. But they don't mention that in the text. So you can easily see somebody's well-meaning person trying to do the current exercise just using a bench and just to get in position tipping it over and messing themselves up.

Adam [00:08:06] Well obviously you know you don't want that to happen you know. But let's let's assume that somebody is reminded to prop it up against the wall so it doesn't slide out from under them and kill them assuming that they can do the actual hips thrust with a barbell across their lap without that happening. I have a funny feeling that you're going to tell me that there are other problems with the exercise in general. Aside from those external risks like what other risks are associated with putting barbell across your lap with a lot of weight on it and thrusting your hips up in the air like that.

Bill [00:08:43] So here's what the biggest promoter of this exercise wrote about it. It's of utmost importance to ensure that the spine and pelvis stay in relatively neutral positions and the extension movement comes from the hips not from the Lambo pelvic region. Slight arch in the low back is fine but excessive lumbar hyper extension can predispose the posterior elements of the spine to injury and increase this defamation and spinal loading.

Adam [00:09:08] And he also that's it?

Bill [00:09:10] And he also wrote for maximum...

Adam [00:09:11] That's all you have to do right?

Bill [00:09:13] For maximum safety the head and neck should track accordingly to remain in alignment with the spine.

Adam [00:09:18] Oh there was more.

Bill [00:09:19] Yeah yeah. So now this is from the guy who likes the exercise you know for me as somebody who's trained clients for over 30 years and trained myself for almost 40 something I will do this sexy shot anyway. Yeah. Congratulations anyway. Now with my experience the difference between hip extension which would be a straight line between your torso your hip and your thigh. And a slight arch in the lower back. And an excessive arch in a lower back. Trying to draw that distinction is a pretty big ask not only if you are trying to coach a client in it but if you are the person doing the exercise you really can't see we are in space and if you have a barbell on your lap and you're really pushing up hard you're really not able to to find that exact that exact position right.

Adam [00:10:17] You gave me a quote from another, I think some other strength coach right?.

Bill [00:10:23] Well yeah. Yeah. The other. Now there's other. Sports conditioning coach his line. Who's who's down on it. His line was by using maximal weight. Athletes try to put more force into the bar which can result in hyper extension of the back spine as processes compressing on each other possible disc protrusion through repeated hyper extension and weighted posterior tilt at the bottom could also cause spinal problems and ligament laxity. So that may be one phenomenal exercise to really take these chances with somebody else's back.

Mike [00:10:55] Did you say he was down on it or down with it?

Bill [00:10:57] No no he was that he was he was he was anti.. Now I know getting down on it. The name of his it down the name of his article which granted wasn't academic was the heavy hip thrust is ruining our backs and this industry a little on the nose. But his experience is what it was in dealing with athletes and their chiropractors and their physical therapists all of whom were trying to do this heavy barbell hip thrust.

Mike [00:11:22] Let me ask you Bill. Let's see if you take the book the barbell off completely and just do the exercise on its own. So how so..

Adam [00:11:31] Now we're talking a glute Bridge.

Bill [00:11:34] No a hip thrust with just your body weight a non weighted hip thrust. What I mean obviously you have a better chance it sort of maybe having a little bit more attention to your alignment up your back a little bit because you're not worried about all that other kind of stuff. How safe or unsafe is just the movement of doing a hip thrust without it being weighted.

Adam [00:11:53] And if it is safe what are the benefits.

Bill [00:11:54] It's really two different exercises. And I think.

Adam [00:11:59] What the barbell hip thrust?

Bill [00:12:01] The barbell hip thrust and the classic glute bridge right. Because I think what they did was take the glute bridge from physical therapy and decide they're about to improve it by adding a barbell to it.

Mike [00:12:11] Why not. Right.

Bill [00:12:12] Right. So so in physical therapy it's done in the context of lower back health. So one of the the approaches out there not mine but Stuart McGill and physical therapists is this idea of glute amnesia. So for whatever reason someone's glutes stop firing. So for instance if you notice people who look at a phone or tablet all day and their head is down and they're sitting all the sitting all day when they go to the floor to pick something up they don't keep their backs straight bend their butt and then lift with their legs and their butt muscles. They tend to crumple to the floor and like anything else if you don't use it you'll lose it. And so then they becomes habitual to not use the glutes to stand up.

Adam [00:13:01] So this is the glute bridge and an answer to that.

Bill [00:13:03] So so so that creates the glute amnesia and what they do in physical therapy in this case is they try to isolate the glutes just to get it working again. So they may start with the clamshell exercise which is sort of like hip abduction because they know other muscles can help you do that.

Adam [00:13:21] Hold On clamshell when you're laying on your side. And ways putting pressure on your legs and you're trying to separate your legs.

Bill [00:13:26] You're lying on your side knees bent your opening against the right now trying is so similar to the hip abductor machine that we used the Nautilus and medic station. So the next step after that would be the glute bridge. And so what they do is you lying on your back knees are bent. Heels abide by your butt but and this is the key thing here. You tighten your abs because we don't tighten your abs when you push up you run the risk of the muscles around the spine or arching to try to help with the hip extension. But if you tighten your abs they're not going to try to arch and tight abs are going to keep you from hip extension or the other thing you do is you hold a yardstick between the person's a shoulder a rib cage and their knees. And when they fill the gap to the yardstick they may have that they might be a little bit of margin of error that they could go but generally is your least preventing them. The whole point to go into that forest hyper extension interesting hyper extension if you do it say over a bozo over a ball or just in general. You have support underneath. Well it's not hyper extension is the problem forced hyper extension is a problem. So somebody in a bench press who's arching their back or somebody who's doing an overhead press an arching their back so they're lifting so heavy and constantly and pushing the weight and that way their spine is it's when you force hyper extension that the litany of back problems can come up.

Mike [00:14:58] What about real quick while doing they the medics or the Nautilus hip abduction machine sometimes you know when you're extending outward that actually it seems like that happens a lot with clients.

Bill [00:15:11] So. So what I noticed also is early in the set your glutes can overpower the weight stack goods pull on your legs the weight stack separates as you get fatigued and now the weight stack is moving slower. If you insist on pushing with your glutes instead of pulling your your thighs towards your hips it's going to pull your hips towards your thighs and now you're forcing that hyper extension again on the lower back. So how I've been coaching it is towards the end of the set when I see that start to happen. That's when I tell the person to tighten up their abs. I had a Nautilus nitro where your feet are in like rungs at the bottom. I also have them dig in. So they're pushing into the rungs. So between the tight abs and pushing into the rungs they're holding their pelvis in place. Now what will happen is your glutes will burn out quicker that way. So your count will be lower or your your TL will be lower but the extra effort that continuing with your spine flopping you got to weigh whether the benefits that are going to outweigh the extra wear and tear of the forced hyper extension of your spine.

Mike [00:16:27] That was the one exercise I've like been a little lenient on. Forced extension like everything else been like a Nazi about it like this only when I forced abduction while extension as a result of doing the analogy. Exactly. That's why I'm.

Bill [00:16:45] Well again if you see the person's going to have at the end of the set. Yeah. Well if you put too much weight on Barry right. And since the hip muscles can't overpower the weight stack as easily if you keep pushing it's gonna pull your pelvis right towards the front forcing that hyper extension right. I think what you do is.

Mike [00:17:03] You we shouldn't be liberal with that.

Bill [00:17:05] No I will keep that. No I would. You see that happen now. Time to tighten their abs. Right. And they still can't do it. They're done. If the person really wants to extend the set I wouldn't like the way lower the weight or do a forced rep or do something that allows them to protect their lower back. Because part of why you're doing a hip abduction is to get the lower body some exercise without jeopardizing their back. Right. Otherwise you'd be doing side barbell squats or some silly. Yeah but if you're doing the machine and the back is going into the position you don't want to go in what you've kind of defeat the purpose.

Mike [00:17:37] Right. So going back to the glute bridge or the hip thrust without without barbell without the barbell. So basically if you could stay mindful keeping a neutral spine not going into any forced extension is it a good exercise on its own.

Bill [00:17:52] See I still don't think the biomechanics work as advertised. You know not to get terribly weedy here but the joint angle. I just happen to have this memorized that the joint tank of a pig Muscle talk of hip extension 70 degrees of hip flexion. So in other words again we do not to get too weedy or I memorize it or prepared before I came here. So in other words at about a quarter squat level so not parallel and not rock bottom but quarter squat. That's where your hip extension that's where your strongest bio mechanically just from the sliding filament theory from how the internal moment arms work the further away you get from that you get proportionately weaker in something like a leg press or a squad or a conventional deadlift. The exercise mechanically hardest at about that angle and as you get away from that angle the exercise gets mechanically easier.

Adam [00:18:45] Which is a good thing is congruent.

Bill [00:18:47] It matches. It matters. It's a built in camp. It pretty much matches the torque curve right.

Adam [00:18:54] For those of you who don't have any clue what we're saying right now this is just a good thing. Leg presses, dead lifts in general and squats are bio mechanically correct and not putting certain they've done right or not.

Mike [00:19:08] You say it's 70 degrees at the hip you said for maximum torque, is that what you said before?

Bill [00:19:13] 70 degrees of hip flexion. So in other words straight full hip extension straight line between the thighs The thighs hip torso that zero hip flexion so seventy degrees of hip flexion is where they strongest right. You know all of the things about squats and deadlifts aside the sticking point now is exercise approximates where that strong angle is and it gets easier as you approach lockout when you go to lockout like press or squat. It gets easier but your muscles are getting weaker so that's fine. That matches is a very efficient exercise right. In the glute bridge. You start at about that strong drink angle and you're simply lifting out of that strong joint angle into the weaker joint angle. That's where the challenge comes from. Because even with a barbell on your lap there's no lever created for the hips to work against. Right. The barbell is right over the hip joint. It's the equivalent of standing in the center of a seesaw. Right there's no lever so the glute bridge is only difficult because you've taken the muscle from a strong joint angle to a weak joint angle. It's not the same as saying don't do it though because again one of the touts for this thing is that people's glutes burn and they get pumped up and clients may find that gratifying you know you feel muscle get pumped. And again as a trainer with experience sometimes you do want to do something that registers on the client that gets their attention. So it feels a workout feels a little different whether it has any kind of long term result or not because really the secret to good butt is to be born with it then have the trainer take credit for it. That's really the secret. So again I context what I would do if you wanted to use it I would I would consider doing say the hip abduction first that addresses the glutes appropriately right go to like a light press or a squat again is gonna challenge the glutes where they're strongest. And now that they're fatigued now I would go into the physical therapy style glute bridge because now with no extra weight they're already fatigued. You're gonna feel it a lot quicker than if you did it fresh right. Yeah I guess.

Adam [00:21:21] Is it good for the lower back?

Bill [00:21:22] It's good in the context that if the glutes are working they take the brunt of lifting something off the floor. So the cliche is lift with your legs not your back. So you pick something off the floor your back muscles hold your back posture, you bend at the knees and the hips and your glutes and your quads lift the object while your back is protecting itself. Is it good for your back? If that's a problem right. If your glutes. If you have glute amnesia and so your lower back is taking more of the strain of standing upright or lifting something. Then yes it's good for your lower back. So you could include it almost like as an insurance policy just to make sure because I don't really know physically what my clients are doing outside the gym.

Mike [00:22:08] Do you do you I mean before I wasn't sure if you believed in glute amnesia by the way you said it before. Is that is that I mean is that real?

Bill [00:22:16] I believe physical therapists think it's real. And people who study, first of all, it's not my term. Right. Right. So McGill who studies that there's a lot of back research and physical therapist who deal this all time they think it's real it's not the only reason I qualified it is because it's not my concept right. But you know yeah I do because for instance I used to do some work with high school football team and one of the things they looked at was if the kid can bend. And by that I meant is that they'd say squat if the kid didn't stick his butt back shins almost vertical and squatted. If the kid crumpled to get to the floor they said that doesn't have the skills. So there is something to you know not having a strong hip hip muscles.

Mike [00:23:08] Well I mean it to me it seems it makes does make sense that glute amnesia does exist. You know who knows whatever but if it does that have to be the primary cause being something that people do like what we're doing right now which is sitting.

Bill [00:23:20] Yeah. I mean that's you know it goes on working right now. They're not working when you're standing up or walking.

Mike [00:23:26] Right but it's on the theory that I heard I read through another seminar & another exercise thing was that it was attributed to and we've talked about this. We mentioned the term and our last podcast was reciprocal inhibition from the hip flexor because this is activated by being in hip flexion. It's quieting the glutes and for long periods of time and actually being in that position could over time like you know limit the glutes from firing effectively whether it's like picking up something as you said before or an athletic movement like a golf swing or you know that what's involved in a rotational golf movement or something.

Bill [00:24:03] Well that concept applies to other muscles too. When I had rotator cuff surgery and the shoulder was turned in because that muscle was repaired and tight the muscles on the back of the shoulder shut down. Right. And so no rear deltoid no traps no.

Adam [00:24:21] This is the reason I'm hearing this. I'm like this is temporary. They shut down temporarily as soon as you really using the proper way the problem by mechanics they're going to turn on sound like they're turned off and right. That's why I can't get turned on again just right do a leg press properly turning them back on I don't get all this modalities of... First thing you got to do is kind of turn your glutes on and then you can start doing a leg press or deadlifts or.

Bill [00:24:44] Well but no the context though in physical therapy is someone has back pain. Someone probably isn't regularly exercised. Someone's not right. If someone's sedentary someone's not regularly exercise they present with back pain there's no distinct injury there's no surgery and they're not exercising.

Mike [00:25:01] Their backs probably deconditioned, the glutes are deconditioned, the hip flexors are deconditioned.

Bill [00:25:06] Exactly right. They said that his flex is a shorter.

Mike [00:25:09] You do a little of everything and it allows sort of come back together.

Bill [00:25:11] Right. So I'm not judging what the physical therapist is doing I'm just saying where the ideas came from to bring this home the idea is where the idea to put a barbell on the front of your hips come from they I'm sure they took it from the physical therapy glute bridge and said well if it's good for physical therapy for glutes and backs must be good if we put a bar... it's better if we put a barbell on it.

Mike [00:25:30] If the Nautilas glute drive station say that you could actually limit it to 70 degrees at the hip.

Bill [00:25:38] Well you can go from 70 at the bottom to zero at the top.

Mike [00:25:40] You know it's could be a limited movement, would that be a safe exercise if it or if you're just if you're cause you're not got to worry about that but the barbell anymore it's just that you're sort of going into that and there's been.

Adam [00:25:52] But the problem is being loaded up in that zero flexion spot.

Bill [00:25:56] Funny you should bring that up because the guy who biggest promoter of this exercise the glute guy.

Adam [00:26:03] Yeah he's actually named Glute guy.

Bill [00:26:05] That's that's his Web site called the Glute guy who inspired the glute drive machine in trying to set a personal record on the glue drive machine tore his actual gluten really serious. By his own admission on his own Instagram account.

Mike [00:26:19] Don't want to laugh but...

Adam [00:26:20] Seriously.

Bill [00:26:20] So that should give people the idea that now. Now it's very tough to tear a muscle while you're exercising your biceps rupture tendon triceps rupture that's attendant poppin off the bone or tear near the tendon but to actually tear a big chunk of the meat of the muscle. Well that's almost almost unheard of. Now I don't think most people doing this exercise or at risk of tearing their glutes I think the real risk is lower back right. And if you notice these NFL guys using hundreds of pounds they start slow at the bottom and they don't hold it at the top. They just kind of pop it out at the bottom because they can't hold it because it can't. It's too heavy and they're going to a weaker part of the muscle torque curve. The danger of course to even those guys is you've done 10 or 15 reps. Even though you did them half assed by our standards you're still fatigued and you still have 500 600 pounds. And now you pop up that last time and it's going to come back down on you and your glutes are going to try to contract. They're going to try to control releasing the contraction when they catch it.

Mike [00:27:28] Right.

Bill [00:27:29] And that's where you can get hurt.

Mike [00:27:30] It sounds like you get hurt in almost all parts of that exercise getting into it. Doing it the lower part the high part getting out of it.

Bill [00:27:38] I mean aside from that. Yes that's right. It's great exercise.

Adam [00:27:41] All right. So to wrap this up then if I may conclude for us. Hip thrusts with weighted barbells is something you probably should not be doing and it's not necessary to do. Glute bridges have their application to to stimulate activation right.

Bill [00:27:56] And that's that's the way I would phrase it... right.

Adam [00:27:58] And to be aware everybody in space to an extent. But but there is no substitute for ultimately you know when you want to work your butt go into hip extension, do a safe leg press which would be my recommendation of some kind. You know they have the hip machines or also some of them are pretty good right.

Bill [00:28:15] Nautilas had the right idea years ago... the hip extension machine.

Adam [00:28:18] All right. Thank you very much. Bill that was very informative. Anything you want to add Mike before we sign off?

Mike [00:28:23] I would just say that was awesome.

Adam [00:28:27] All right. Thanks Bill. Appreciate it.

Bill [00:28:28] Thank you guys.

Arlene [00:28:29] This has been the Inform Fitnesss Podcast with Adam Zickerman. For over 20 years. Inform Fitness has been providing clients of all ages with customized personal training designed to build strength fast. Visit Inform Fitness dot com for testimonials blogs and videos on the three pillars. Exercise nutrition and recovery.

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Dr. James Fisher is a researcher & senior lecturer in sports conditioning & fitness at Southampton Solent University in the United Kingdom. He went on to complete his PhD, titled “The Scientific Application of Resistance Training”, through Nottingham Trent University.

On this episode, Adam, Mike & James discuss exercising for health & strength vs. exercising for sports & fitness.

Off the top, James clearly states that resistance training is essential to both good health & sports performance and Adam shares the advice he gives his clients looking for “sport-specific” workouts. Then they all weigh in on the “fads & fashions” like CrossFit, Bootcamps & Functional training programs.

James draws on his personal experiences as a fitness professional; strength and conditioning coach to amateur, professional, national and international athletes; GB wheelchair basketball coach at the London 2012 Games; and published researcher and reviewer to deliver the theoretical and practical knowledge required for future progression of health, fitness and sporting success.

https://www.solent.ac.uk/staff-profiles/academic-profiles/james-fisher/james-fisher

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

For a FREE 20-Minute strength training full-body workout & to find a location nearest you:

http://bit.ly/Podcast_FreeWorkout

Inform_Fisher 2_April 25 Transcript

Arlene [00:00:01] The InForm Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman and co-host Mike Rogers is a presentation of InForm Fitness studios, a small family of personal training facilities specializing in safe efficient high intensity strength training. On our bi monthly podcast Adam and Mike discuss the latest findings in the areas of exercise nutrition and recovery with leading experts and scientists. We aim to debunk the popular misconceptions and the urban myths that are so prevalent in the fields of health and fitness. And to replace those sacred cows with scientific based up to the minute information on a variety of subjects. We'll cover exercise protocols and techniques nutrition sleep recovery the role of genetics in the response to exercise and much more.

Arlene [00:00:59] On this episode exercise for health and strength versus exercise for sports and fitness. We welcome back Dr. James Fisher, researcher and senior lecturer in sports conditioning and fitness at South Hampton Solent university in the United Kingdom.

James [00:01:16] But fundamentally a movement is either the same or it's different. There's no big gray area here saying it takes its skiing movements and then say well we'll replicate that on wherever else we've got. What you do is you say if you wanna be better at skiing go skiing or if you want to be better at surfing go surfing if you want to be stronger. That will make you stronger but at the end of the day if you want to be the best skier you can be you should be strong and as healthy as you can be and you should practice skiing as much as you can.

Adam [00:01:48] All right. We'll be back. By popular request we have Dr. James Fisher with us again. And to refresh your memory Dr. Fisher is a researcher and senior lecturer in sports conditioning and fitness at South Hampton Solent university in the United Kingdom. He also has his PHD from Nottingham Trent University. James welcome back to the show.

James [00:02:06] It's great to be back Adam, thank you for having me.

Adam [00:02:08] We've had some great feedback on the last episode we did when we compared compound movements to simple movements. And today I want to talk to you about something a little differently and that is what you have found out about the difference between exercising for health and strength versus exercise for sports performance. And is there a difference in how you train for health and strength versus training if you were to become or want to become or are, an athlete whether you're I guess a weekend warrior or beyond that.

James [00:02:46] Yeah absolutely. This is a really interesting topic and I think that you know this is a very very deep topic so we'll see how far down the rabbit hole we can go with this. Well first and foremost I think resistance training plays a key role for health and I think health is key for sports performance. So I think that's worth worth saying first and foremost. No athlete is going to perform optimally if they're unwell or if they're injured and if a resistance training or or or properly formed strength training can improve health then it can certainly help stabilize performance if not enhance performance. I think then the next thing is that we've got to look at performance as being on a spectrum so we talk about athletic performance in sports performance but actually performance for some people is walking up and down a flight of stairs or you know being able to hold that balance if they slip on ice or things like that. So performance is still a measure or a marker or exists on this this spectrum in my opinion. I think that you know we know the benefits so we shouldn't know the benefits of how this was training. I've published it in multiple papers there is just a ton of research to support it you know with regards to kind of body composition, reduction in risk of diabetes types of cancer. So on and so forth. The key difference there is that when we're training for sports performance or for a specific exercise there is a huge skill component along the way as well. So it's not to suggest that resistance training won't enhance performance but if you take a basketball player.

James [00:04:23] Well if I took 20 basketball players and 10 of them I put on the basketball court and had them play basketball for 10 weeks and the other 10 I had come in the gym and lift weights for 10 weeks. Well at the end of 10 weeks I'd bet my money on the team to play basketball that every day of the week because they are more skilled in or they're more practiced in the skills that they need. But if you wanted to say who are the healthiest. Well then I think you know you're looking at a big difference. I think that's a bit of a different marker on the group that's been practicing resistance training are probably less prone to injury which might be a key factor and their overall health might well be better than the group playing basketball.

Adam [00:05:08] Now I've always said this, when I have athletes coming into workout and they tell me well I want to arm a tennis player or I'm a Weekend Warrior I play soccer on the weekends or I guess over there we'd call that football but they say to me well are we going to be doing specific exercises for my particular sport. And I've always generally said Not really. We're going to do the compound movements we're going to mix and maybe some simple movements but basically we're going to do a full body safe workout with what you said earlier struck a chord which was healthier right. So like you know if you're an athlete you want your exercise program to preserve your joints not destroy your recovery not diminish your recovery ability too much because you're practicing all the time. You want your workout just to be very specific and do it strengthening muscles. Nothing necessarily specific to a particular sport.

James [00:06:02] Yeah I know I agree with that completely. And I think that there are two approaches to this. So the first is that I think that's incredibly honest of you. If not if a client said to you I'm a tennis player is my workout going to be specific to tennis. I would say yeah absolutely we're going to train the muscles of the hip. We got to train the muscles of the low body the quarter since the hamstrings and the gastro anemia so salacious. We're going to in doing so we're going to make sure the ankle and the knees are stable and strong and we're going to give you great flexibility through the hips and the trunk and all those things is gonna be really important for you as a tennis player. I don't think you need to say yeah we're going to stand you want to. Will if you're a tennis player great we have to stand you on a bounce board and have you do it backwards lunges with a T-Rex and a medicine ball and in fact the body of research from a from a motor schema perspective which is this which is really the skill element of movement the body of research shows that people in strength and conditioning or strength training shouldn't try to mimic the movements that are being performed by the athlete in the sport they play. The tennis racket is a certain weight they move in a certain way to hit certain shots and unless you're a tennis coach coaching those movements you should leave that to the tennis coach or the tennis player. What you should be doing is making sure the athlete is physically prepared. That might be cardiovascular conditioning that might be muscular strength it might be power it might be flexibility and range of motion might be joints stability things at that which are all things are covered with with sensible resistance training program.

Adam [00:07:30] Right. So OK. Mike you want...

Mike [00:07:33] What I've been learning a lot over many many years but especially over the last few years is I is trying to figure out addressing the same questions when clients come in about you know golf and tennis are the ones we hear the most and skiing also that's another story. But the. But they want to recreate some of these movements and what I do and what I'm learning is that when you learn this properly do a golf swing like that with the proper way in an efficient way that is powerful and consistent. And if it's done coached properly which we're not qualified to teach people that do that is what you want to aspire for is actually I think getting the most output by by doing the littlest movement in a way you know or this or that less as little work as possible in order to get the most output of whatever you try to do like power or whatever.

James [00:08:22] Efficiency.

Mike [00:08:22] It's all that honestly everything is about efficiency and Adam & we're even talking about that this morning. So yeah.

Adam [00:08:29] Well to me it's efficiency and recovery. I think if you're truly working with an athlete who's who's playing golf three or four times a week or something more demanding possibly like tennis three or four times a week. I mean you know I'm saying to myself well this person is spending an hour and any heat on a tennis court three times a week. When are they recovering from all this. Which is an important part of becoming a good athlete going forward and progressing as a good athlete. So here we are now we're training them to death in the gym two to three times a week. And I'm just saying myself that that's that's just asking for trouble and injury because the recovery is just not there.

James [00:09:07] Yeah I completely agree. And I think that this is where the abbreviated minimal dose approach to resistance trading is just so suitable for athletes. I mean you know we we often pitch it towards the layperson or push it towards a student who doesn't have time or a busy executive. But actually this is perhaps even more important for athletes who are already incurring a huge amount of exercise and a huge dose of exercise and really need to add sufficient stimulus to make sure the muscles are strong when the joints are stable and so forth. But actually don't need any more and don't want any more the bodies can't handle any more than that. Now a prime example if I may is in a different lifetime I was a basketball player.

Adam [00:09:50] How tall are you?

James [00:09:50] I'm five eleven. So I know but I bet I grew when I was about 40.

Adam [00:09:58] You look taller in these pictures of you from the chest up. You look very tall.

James [00:10:06] So but I had a growth spurt when I was very young so I when I was about 14 I was about 5 11 and I was convinced I was going to make you know 6 8 and I was going to go into the NBA and everything else. And then when I was 16 17 everybody else is five 11 five ten five eleven as well or taller and I realized that this is never going to happen. But the point is if that was if it was all we did basketball was jump when you do basketball training, you jump you do tip drills you do layup drills you do whatever drills it might be you jump you jump. Jump. Somebody said well you know and then you go in the gym. What did your coach have you do your strength and conditioning coach what do you do play metrics you do more jumping.

James [00:10:46] So I'm 40 years old now and I'm both my knees a heck of a state because really I spent about 20 years bouncing up and down on hard surfaces and actually the way I would approach strength and conditioning with a basketball player and the way I do approach strength the connection with the basketball players I stopped jumping because they already do enough jumping and they do it in the right way. They jump for a ball they jump to block a shot they jump to take a shot whereas if somebody has to do that in a gym that jumping with maybe a weight on that back or the jumping off something or jumping onto something which are things that they are never going to do in a basketball game. So they're practicing a skill that they're never going to use that has a higher risk of injury and they're really adding to the degree of muscle damage that doing joints to their joints. Yeah. To the joints that they're already potentially overusing by the high volume of training and matches and so on and so forth. So sports is absolutely about efficiency. The golf swing should be perfectly efficient no wasted energy. You know I see I speak to marathon runners and cyclists who dabble in triathlon and they say they need to get their swim training back up. These guys are incredibly fit but when they get to pool their stamina is terrible because swimming is about efficiency.

Adam [00:12:02] Yeah I remember when I did my first triathlon because I swam in college I thought I didn't have to train for the swimming part and I almost drowned. Because I just thought I'd be able to carry through with my you know. But I haven't trained for years.You know after college.

Mike [00:12:16] I don't think it stops at swimming, I think with everything and like it looking at me at the Super Bowls and Tom Brady is over 40 and he's not just hanging on he's destroying in the NFL right now he's the best and still the best. And I'm not a fan but you acknowledge that he's the best. But but the thing is when I am a fan of is and I've been reading some other materials and about a lot of athletes especially the ones that are lasting late thirties going into their 40s they're there at their training less they're doing considerably less to keep up with and even surpass the ones who are younger and faster.

Adam [00:12:53] Yeah that's interesting cause I was going to ask you James if you know about what's going on there in the professional world of sports. Are they catching on to this idea that that efficiency and joint protection and recovery is really more important than just trying to mimic movements in the gym. Are they catching on to that yet.

James [00:13:13] I think that the the very elite athletes who pay for their own coaches who don't necessarily train or work with a team with a team trainer are catching on to this and they know their bodies well enough and they know that it's about doing the right things not more things. So for example there have been a few premiere Premier League football as Premier League soccer players who have been able to do that. It played into their 40s. The name Ryan Giggs is something that springs to mind and of course in the in the NBA Kobe Bryant was a guy who worked with his own trainer and in fact I believe he worked with Tim Grover he was Michael Jordan's trainer. And of course Michael Jordan himself did the same and they're aware that there are components of training that they need to do but they are also what the body can't stand up to the same intensity, at the same volume, that they need to reduce the volume and they need to manage their training a lot better. So but as a general rule the answer is that question is no most trained most athletes are not aware of that and they are you know following probably in my opinion very high too high a volume of exercise.

Adam [00:14:22] Forgetting about the professional athlete more relevant to especially for our listeners is a weekend warrior and our clients I walk in and say you know I want to be a better golfer. And I like to do this. They don't have aspirations of becoming a professional but they want to be you know they want to do their sports for as long as they can and I and they have fun. So you know I keep hearing stuff about cross fit you know is that something I should be doing to become a better athlete or the boot camps or these functional training programs. And you know I always sound like a stick in the mud when I say you don't need to do that. You know sometimes I think they look at me like I'm old fashioned like I'm not progressive or I'm not you know open minded to these these ideas.

James [00:15:04] You know I spoke to a guy a trainer at the University of Cincinnati Mike Rayfeld and he felt and he he says that kind of every year in his head like football coach comes in the room says what you going to add to the program this year. And he looks at them and then he goes away. And then he comes back and says Yeah. Now we're going to do medicine ball rotations or we're going to get power back slams it's sort of like this. Mike do you buy into this you said no it's window dressing. It's just window dressing. It's because the coach wants to look in the room see that we're doing something new, something different. I see that we have progressed but actually we still get everything that we need from the original program that we've been doing for the last 10 15 years. And this is exactly you know the exercise industry follows fads and fashions if you'd followed them all then you'd have a warped ball every piece of electrical equipment that you could from a treadmill to a verse or climber and so forth. Then you'd have sold it all and start doing Olympic lifting then you either sold it all and taken up yoga then you ditched yoga would have opened a zumba studio. Then you'd have gone back to Olympic lifting and then gone back to yoga. You know the industry is a commercial marketing machine. But that doesn't mean it's productive. It doesn't mean that the half of what's being done is productive. You mentioned CrossFit the just to get that out of the way first and foremost crossfit itself is a sport. I don't have an agenda with CROSSFit a lot of people think I do and I don't have an agenda with CrossFit because I perceive it to be a sport. It's competitive it's got a competitive element which means it's got a high risk of injury and it's got a skill element to it in itself albeit probably quite a low skill element because there's not much emphasis on technique in crossfit. You know it's a sport does it. So if you wanted to cross fit then do it. But it's the same as going and playing you know five a side soccer of an evening or going and playing table tennis. It's a sport. It's competitive. That's it.

Adam [00:16:51] At least with those sports you can see. Keep score you can't keep score.

Mike [00:16:53] I read that ESPN games where they are racing to gain as many checkups with you. Yeah.

James [00:17:03] Let's be fair. You know they're tremendous athletes but they are only good at doing that particular event or that particular sport. You know in the crossfit games in the U.K. here they play in cyclo cross one year. So they had like a 20 mile cyclical route to do which meant that unless you were a cyclist you were absolutely screwed. So I think two of the girls were cyclists and they just took the competition apart because they weren't great at doing keeping pullups or anything else but they were cyclists. So they beat the girls by you know by hours of the cycling element. So you know again it's really skill specific. Now as far as functional movements will again balance is a specific skill so the balance in your body when you take a golf swing is specific to your body when you take a golf swing. It's not replicated by studying on a Swiss ball by studying on a boat. So by standing on any kind of wobble board or balance platform.

Adam [00:18:01] Is there any benefit to doing push ups on a wobble board. Like take a boat you boy turn it upside down is there any benefit to doing push ups on that thing.

James [00:18:08] So if I if I spoke to a physiotherapist they would probably say that if you were rehabilitating a rotator cuff at the later stages then adding a degree of instability might might be beneficial. And I wouldn't challenge a physical therapist because that's not my remit. I could see why they would say that because the shoulder needs to cope with unstable movements at times but you know I think you're dealing again with the final end of that kind of spectrum. Can you just strengthen the rotator cuff muscles can you strengthen muscle the shoulder and that will do like 98 percent of the job. Yeah absolutely. You know when we look at sports performers it's about skill. It's about proper reception purpose such as the awareness of our body in space. Well it's contextual. So is the awareness of body in space or when we're performing a sport. If you changed me his basketball shoes and things feel different they take a bit of time to adapt if you change from your tennis racket it might be a different weight or a different size or different grip size. It takes time to adapt and that's the adaptation of that skill. So we don't do that. An interesting analogy in all of this is you've seen the matadors and the bulls in Spain the bullfighting so. So the matador waves out the Cape or whatever might be in the bull runs at him and the bull misses by like an inch or a couple of inches right. And it happens every time and the crowd cheer and everything like that. The night before the bull goes into the arena they shave an inch or an inch and a half off the bull's horns before they go in. So the bull thinks that the danger end of the horn is here but actually it's moved about two inches and lo they miss the matador by like an inch and a half.

Adam [00:19:52] How do you know that I knew they had the damn thing distractedly death before they come out.

James [00:19:57] Well they do as well. Yeah so. So you change in the specificity you know. Imagine if you were about to go and play golf and I took an inch of your your your golf club. Yeah I mean it changes everything right.

Mike [00:20:13] Now. Don't even like I got a basic strength level versus skill level there are it's amazing how in golf and I think we've mentioned this in our previous podcast as well is you could see there are 14 15 year old girls and boys who can hit the ball 300 plus yards because they have the skill and actually and how to position their hips and swing the club very efficiently and they know how to create club head speed versus you know Dwayne The Rock Johnson. I don't know if he can play golf or not but I mean let's just say he can't. He's got a lot more muscle than like a 15 year old girl. She might be able to hit it on you know maybe like 100 yards farther because she has a technique in order to do so.

James [00:20:57] Yeah I completely agree completely. Great. I was going to say the only the emphasis here for me is is the benefits of strength training for these people. One of the key things you know Mike. You said you were a cyclist and I'm a cyclist. I'm know more and more competitive cyclist. Try and keep it with my wife but one of the key things that always stands out to me is the prevalence of injuries in cycling. Now I know that there's an emphasis on keeping the weight down. I know this emphasis on on all of that has an impact on nutritional habits and so on and so forth. And I don't think for a second that all of those things are necessarily healthy. But I know that for most cyclists when they fall off a bike they break a bone. And I would bet if you took the bone marrow density of a cyclist that probably similar to about an 80 or 90 year old woman because they don't do strength training and they certainly don't do any strength training in the upper body. So what do they do. They fall off they hit their shoulder they brace themselves with their hand and they break their collarbone. So you know resistance training once a week once a fortnight you know a couple times a week whatever it might be with a reasonably high load a minimal dose would in my opinion do a lot for a cyclist to improve their resilience and their ability to disperse energy and prevent broken bones and so forth. So I think that I think that that's probably analogies across all the sports that it was obvious to me because like I said I'm a cyclist.

Mike [00:22:23] Skiing especially to it there's tons of falls in that you know.

Adam [00:22:26] You know skiing anecdotally I can tell you I can give you an anecdote regarding skiing. I mean we hear this all the time. Skiing is a seasonal sport for most parts of the world particularly New York and you know we have clients working out with us all summer and fall and then they finally hit the slopes. If they go to high altitude for the after working out with us for the first time for a year and then they go skiing for the first time after these kind of workouts which are brief intense workouts they oh so many times they report... Hey I expected to be done by like 11:00 in the afternoon 1 1 11:00 in the morning or 1:00 in the afternoon tops. But I was I was I was good until 3:00 p.m.. I've never felt that before I really felt I had my strength again. You know they were mimicking skiing movements or we weren't doing. We weren't trying to you know work the quads any differently. We did leg press in whatever exercises to work our legs and hips and they were just strong and you know and they picked up where they left off the year before. So being that there was no specificity training you know I mean I'm doing this 20 years and I still haven't really been able to see a purpose for specificity training trying to do mimic mimicking movements in the gym to improve sports performance.

James [00:23:44] I mean me a summary the motor schema you know we start out talking about the motor schema research and if you go back through it it's interesting because all of this falls in the psychology and the reason it does is because it's because it's neural. So it's it's really neurophysiology but fundamentally a movement is either the same or it's different. There's no there's a big gray area here. Sou you don't take this skiing movement and then say well we'll replicate that on whatever else we've got what you do is you say if you want to be better at skiing go skiing or if you want to be better at surfing go surfing if you want to be stronger then we'll make you stronger. But at the end of the day if you want to be the best skier you can be you should be strong and as healthy as you can be and you should practice skiing as much as you can. You shouldn't go in the gym and try to find a middle ground that say well I'm going to bring my strength training this round bring my skiing this way until I can just do this exercise on a on a boat. So you should ski and you should do strength training. This it's pretty simple.

Adam [00:24:45] In conclusion very good. Thank you so much. I think we'll leave it on that note. I mean that pretty much as says it all.

James [00:24:52] Brilliant Thanks very much for your time gents.

Mike [00:24:52] Thanks James.

Adam [00:24:54] Dr. Fisher once again thank you again.

Arlene [00:24:56] This has been the InForm Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman. For over 20 years InForm Fitness has been providing clients of all ages with customized personal training designed to build strength fast visit nform fitness dot com for testimonials blogs and videos on the three pillars exercise nutrition and recovery.

View Details

Gary Taubes’ groundbreaking book “Good Calories, Bad Calories,” is stimulating and challenging , yet requires substantial time and attention to fully grasp. Hence, in 2010 Mr. Taubes wrote national bestseller, “Why We Get Fat” highlighting the key points of his first book and making it accessible to everyone. In this episode, Adam and Mike and guest host, InForm Fitness instructor, Neil Holland, interview Taubes to reveal his simple message: The widespread theory of caloric intake exceeding expenditure leading to obesity is flawed, and instead, our focus needs to be on the amount of carbohydrates consumed. Adam asks the million-dollar question, “Can we live without carbohydrates?” and relative to that, Taubes’ verdict on fruit. Unparalleled in his impact on the field of nutrition and physiology, Taubes’ accolades are too many to list, including degrees from Harvard, Stanford and Columbia. Many fans of his work, including “The Case Against Sugar,” will appreciate how the information presented herein is sound and entertaining, with the unexpected bonus being a sneak-peak into Taubes’ upcoming book! http://garytaubes.com/

Gary’s books:

http://garytaubes.com/works/books/good-calories-bad-calories/

http://garytaubes.com/works/books/why-we-get-fat/

http://garytaubes.com/works/books/the-case-against-sugar-2016/

Gary mentioned during interview, ‘The Physiology of Taste’ by Jean Anthelme Brillat-Savarin:

https://www.amazon.com/Physiology-Taste-Jean-Anthelme-Brillat-Savarin/dp/160386224

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution:

http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

For a FREE 20-Minute strength training full-body workout & to find a location nearest you:

http://bit.ly/Podcast_FreeWorkout

Inform_Taubes 1_April 3 Transcript

Introduction [00:00:01] The inform fitness podcast with Adam Zuckerman and co-host Mike Rogers is a presentation of informed fitness studios a small family a personal training facility specializing in safe efficient high intensity strength training on our bi monthly podcast Adam and Mike discuss the latest findings in the areas of exercise nutrition and recovery with leading experts and scientists. We aim to debunk the popular misconceptions and the urban myths that are so prevalent in the fields of health and fitness. And to replace those sacred cows with scientific base up to the minute information on a variety of subjects will cover exercise protocols and techniques nutrition sleep recovery the role of genetics in the response to exercise and much more. On this episode Why We Get Fat. With national best selling author. Gary Taubes.

Gary [00:01:06] In the 60s. Diet books took up this idea that carbohydrates are fattening and you going to lose weight you don't eat them so you remove the carbohydrates from your diet replace it with fat. of all things. The infamous example of this was the Atkins diet and what I'd been doing in my book is just arguing that basically these diet book doctors got it right.

Adam [00:01:31] Hi welcome to the show. I have with me here co-host Michael of course. And I'm really excited to have this next guest Gary Taubes journalist author.

[00:01:40] He is the co-founder of Nutrition Science Initiative and author of The Case Against Sugar Why We Get Fat and the tome Good Calories Bad Calories. He's a recipient of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation Investigator Award and health policy research and has won numerous awards for his journalism including the International Health Reporting Award from the Pan American Health Organization. He is the first print journalist to be a three time winner of the National Association of Science Writers science and society journalism award. And we have with us today one of our instructors Neil Holland. And he's joining us this episode because as I understand it Neil your Gary is high intensity training instructor for a while so welcome to the program. Thanks Adam. Gary welcome.

Gary [00:02:25] Nice to be here. Thank you.

Adam [00:02:27] We're going to talk about the book that pretty much summarized your tome Good Calories Bad Calories. I assume you wrote why we get fat because well how many people were actually getting through the whole group calories calories.

Adam [00:02:43] Just want to get this message this important message across.

Gary [00:02:46] Yeah I mean this is I spent five years reporting my first book and I wanted to put in most of what I found. It's not even all of what I found. I had to leave stuff out and you end up with a 500 page book with another 150 pages of end notes and bibliography and that was a difficult read. And there were some. What I thought were extremely significant messages that had to be conveyed to you I would. Then I wrote Why We Get Fat. I get a lot of e-mails from people saying Would you please Your book changed my life. Now would you write one that you know my husband could read or my doctor could read or my father could read or so I did.

Adam [00:03:22] That was why we get in my case when I'm training so many people and I want to get your research across to them. I'm not going to hand them Good Calories Bad Calories that I'm losing the list of people that that really welcomes Why We Get Fat which is such an easy read and so on. It's so clear to me. What's come out so that's we're going to talk about let's talk about this but won't you please. First of all maybe tell us the elevator pitch if you will of Why We Get Fat OK.

Gary [00:03:51] Their elevator pitch.

Gary [00:03:53] So I have to preface this as I'm a investigative journalist who became a de facto historian doing this book and I realized that in order to understand what we believe you have to understand what we why we believe it and when we decided to believe in what we might have believed instead. So with that context.

Gary [00:04:12] Since the Second World War we believed that obesity is caused by eating too much. Very simple gluttony and slaw mild or you take in more calories than you expend in the excess are stored as fat. And everything we do to treat obesity is based on this premise. We tell people if you want to lose weight you've got to eat less and exercise more. Got to get into negative energy balance. And the message that came out of my research was that that's nonsense almost nonsensical. And it's the product of some very naive thinking of physicians in the post-World War 2 era who just assume that fat people got fat because they eat too much and that nothing else has been known. And there was always this alternative hypothesis which is that obesity is a disorder of excess fat accumulation and that's caused by a sort of dis regulation and the hormones and enzymes that determine how much fat we carry on our bodies and how much fat we store or how much fatty acids we burn as fuel and the hormone that dominates that is this hormone insulin and if insulin goes up we store calories as fat and when insulin comes down we mobilize those calories and we use them for fuel and we secrete insulin in response to the carbohydrates in our diet. And until the 1960s the conventional wisdom was that carbohydrates are fattening. Bread pasta potatoes rice beer sweet if you eat them you got fat women would say they go right to my hips just prior to the 60s and this is this is common note this was common knowledge and in the 60s a sort of pioneering work or diet books took up this idea that carbohydrates are fattening and you don't want to lose if you want to lose weight you don't eat them so you remove the carbohydrates from your diet you replace it with fat the ball things the sort of infamous example of this was the Atkins diet. And what I've been doing in my books is just arguing that basically these diet book doctors got it right and the medical community got it wrong. But the problem is we've been claiming the diet book doctors were quacks for since the early 1970s and the medical community just refused to accept what was a very simple message backed up by very profound physiology. That's actually textbook medicine.

Adam [00:06:47] All right guys so so this is it the bottom line is this. Watch your carbs and don't be afraid of fats.

Gary [00:06:52] Yeah basically it's a very simple story. I mean there are complications and all these stories.

Adam [00:06:58] So don't calories count at all. So you're saying for example you eliminate your your carbohydrates. I mean this is this is a question I get all the time. OK. So I can. I'm with you on this low carb thing. I can buy that the whole incident response and what you just said Gary. So does that mean I can eat as much fat as I want and not gain weight. I mean is there still a limit to the calories you you ingest.

Gary [00:07:23] Well let's think of it this way. And it's interests one of the ways that critics always attack these books is they said Oh yeah sure you any low carb diet. So the ultimate example of a very low carb diet is a ketogenic diet that Kito Atkins with a ketogenic diet. Now it's a huge fad and you get rid of all the carbs you replace with fat. So the idea is when you do that this medical community. Yes sure it gives you quick weight loss gets waterlogged but that's all it does. And I don't think these people have any clue what people with obesity really want how they want their bodies to work. So the way they want that we want our bodies to work like lean people's bodies work and lean people can eat is meat to satiety at every meal and not get fat. And the idea with these very low carb diets where you replace some of that is you are allowed to eat to satiety and to eat when you're hungry and eat to satiety and not get fat. A lot of people. Can eat as much fat as they want and. They're fine although some people can. So in some sense some people are still going to have to kind of consciously restrict how much they would like to eat if they want to get leaner but other people don't. Other people like the first time I ever tried Atkins is an experiment back going on 20 years ago now I was writing my first magazine investigative piece on the dietary fat dogma and I tried Atkins and it's an experiment and for me I was then a 40 year old man physically active I could eat as much food as I wanted to and I lost weight anyway. I can explain it physiologically but I wasn't trying to obey. I wasn't force feeding myself. I was just eating until I was done. You know I was doing the lean people though I was eating to satiety. So that's kind of the argument. My problem with this idea about calories is as soon as you start thinking about calories you get into this energy balance thing and you go just the wrong way to think about fat accumulation. So you're your fat cells don't even know they don't have no way of knowing how much you're eating and exercise your fat cells are responding to the presence basically of insulin in the bloodstream if there's a lot of insulin their fat cells take up fat if there's not a lot of insulin they're fat cells deposit fat and if you think about it as the calories you're going to end up with the wrong way to think about obesity. If you think about in terms of carbohydrates in insulin you can solve the problem. I argument I've been make this. Calories in calories out is just the wrong way to think about it though Gary.

Neil [00:10:01] Just tying into that there were two things I believe you've said both in Good Calories Bad Calories and Why We Get Fat. I always found very compelling and that's something I always say to my clients when explaining how this works and I'd love to get your input or what you mean by this but two things you said. One was we don't get fat because we eat too much we eat too much because we're fat and the other thing was in terms of calories in versus calories out. You said it's like comparing a room talking about how a room gets crowded because more people are there. But the real question is why are they there. So I always like those too kind of metaphors and explain it to clients and I love to kind of hear what you mean by that.

Gary [00:10:43] OK. So this is the problem with this energy balance idea this calories in calories out. Thing is the people who talk about it will talk about it too. This is determined by the laws of physics so the laws of physics tell you the first law of thermodynamics is that if somebody gets fatter they get heavier. Their take in more calories than they expect and it's to use the example and they'll just use it like if a room gets more crowded that room is taking in more people than are leaving. You know if I get rich another metaphor I've been using lately is well. If you asked me why Bill Gates got so rich I can tell you that he took in more money than he spent but that doesn't answer the question of why he got rich at just the a condition. It's saying the same thing in two different ways. That's a tautology. So if somebody got fatter they took in more calories than they expand and then you say well how do you know they took in more calories and they expanded and a person will say well because they got fatter. And so then you get back to others. That doesn't tell me how they got fatter than just taking in more energy being spent as a condition that's fulfilled. It's saying the same thing. Physicists would have called it spiritually senseless. It doesn't really make any sense. No matter how you look at it what you need is an explanation and then the room example when I lecture about this and I say let's say you wanted to know why this room was so crowded there could be a lot of reasons for it. You know there's an interesting lecture going on there's free food in the room. Maybe there's a fire alarm went off and the fire extinguishers outside the the sprinkler system has gone off in every room outside. People have come into the room to hide from the y you know because it's the only room that's dry. Maybe it's 95 degrees outside. This is the only room with air conditioning. Maybe we slept with me.

Gary [00:12:42] You know it's a party going on.

Gary [00:12:44] Could be that you know I hired the offensive lineman from the football team to stand at the door and pull people in. A lot of explanations for why the room got crowded that have to do with the conditions inside the room and the conditions outside the room and the conditions at the barrier. The membrane like these big football players standing at the door like bouncers dragging people in and not letting them leave but the fact that more people ended than left is irrelevant. You know clearly more people aren't that the left the room is crowded. You know why. And it's the same thing when we talk about obesity so rather than ask why a person gets fat.

Gary [00:13:21] You could ask why does a fat cell get fat. This is how I like to think about it because basically you're the the integration of all your fat fat cells. And so then you ask the question why did more fat enter the fat cell than leave it. Because of more fat enters of fat cells and leaves it that fat cells gonna get fatter. We know that. And now you've got a very now you've got the fat cell itself you've got the membrane of the fat cell and you've got. The outside you know the equivalent of outside the room which is the circulation in the bloodstream and you can start asking question What factors have to happen to make the fat cell take up fat. And the answer is insulin has to go up. I mean it has to be fat in the bloodstream but there's always fat in the bloodstream. Triglycerides in these particles called lipo proteins or fatty acid but insulin has to go up or the fatso isn't going to take up fat. And if you want to get more fat out of the fat cell insulin has to go down. And in fact fat cells happen to be what the researchers who studied this called exquisitely sensitive to insulin. So if you've got a fat cell that's exquisitely sensitive insulin that means the insulin has got to be really really really low for the fat cell to let the fat out. And when it's really really really low basically that means you're in ketosis. And now you're back to the keto diet plan. And now you have the rationale why the ketogenic diet works because that's a diet that you know maximally lowers insulin and maximizes the chance that the fat cells are going to let it out. So just more calories coming in than leaving doesn't tell you anything. You know when if I say somebody got fat because they took in more calories than they expend that they may aid too much and they exercise too little and the eating too much is a behavior and exercising too little sedentary behavior is a behavior. And now you've taken a physiological problem which is somebody is getting fatter or is burdened with obesity and you blamed it on their behavior. And there's a whole science now neurobiology and neurology that's trying to understand what's happening in the brains of people with obesity.

Gary [00:15:34] That makes them eat too much and exercise too little. Because they're hoping they could explain it via some you know in grain neurological mechanism that.

Gary [00:15:45] Doesn't require them to blame the obese person for basically poor behavior for causing their own problems. They're never going to solve the problem as long as you believe obesity is an energy balance problem you believe it's a behavioral issue.

Adam [00:16:00] Can we survive without carbohydrates.

Gary [00:16:02] No. Yeah they can might have an Eric Westman and the low carb world. So there's no such thing as an essential carbohydrate. There a central fat. You need a minimum protein. This is one of these again the nutrition community gets this wrong. They will say we need one hundred twenty five or 130 grams of carbs a day to fuel the brain because if you're eating a carb which diet your brain Milburn carbs for fuel and it'll burn about 120 to 130 grams a day I don't know where that number comes from but I'll trust it. If you're not eating carbs your brain to work perfectly fine on ketones on glycerol released from fat molecules when they're used for fuel. It's there the world is full of people now especially when only Taubes and seemed to do exceedingly well.

Adam [00:16:52] There are metabolic functions that utilize glucose and can't utilize a ketone.

Adam [00:16:57] So where we get into glucose from for certain metabolic functions.

Gary [00:17:02] Well you'll get glucose from the amino acids in the protein liberal convert that into glucose. So you'll always have enough glucose if you're getting enough protein you have enough glucose to satisfy whatever requirements the body has.

Gary [00:17:18] Now let's talk about fruit because that's always a controversial aspect of it also. And you know I've been told some people said to me if you eat fruit you know you're gonna get scurvy. I mean where are you getting your vitamin C from. OK.

Adam [00:17:33] Not to mention other viral chemicals that everyone talks about is so beneficial from fruit.

Gary [00:17:38] You know this whole fruit craze this whole fruit thing is fascinating because clearly most humans would never have eaten fruit except a few months a year max throughout even in well into the agricultural era it wasn't like you know peasants in China growing rice were sitting around eating apples and berries in their spare time on food was hard to come by and it was seasonal. I often think are no clinical trials that say you're going to be healthier if you eat food than you're knocking. You know it's. There's a lot of people who have decided that fruits and fruits go along with green vegetables like this phrase fruits and vegetables you can't separate the two and if we need vegetables we should eat fruits. Part of what we believe about how healthy fruit is apple a day story and the vitamin C and orange juice for advertising campaigns by the apple industry and the orange industry. The fact of the matter is you get all the necessary vitamins and minerals you need in animal products with the possible exception of vitamin C. And actually when I was doing my research for Good Calories Bad Calories This is one of the areas I focused on the most because I realized doing my reading I read a lot of the memoirs of explorers who were lost in the Arctic or stories about explorers who had died in the Arctic. And there was an interesting phenomena that I noticed out of an explorer one to the Arctic and his ship sunk crushed in the ice or something and they couldn't rescue the ship supplies the explorer did perfectly fine living off you know the food to the input but if they salvage their supplies from the ship which often included you know bread and sugar and they eat the bread and sugar they died of scurvy. So they won it in with diet alone no scurvy in you a diet with crackers whatever this you know and sugar or scurvy.

Gary [00:19:44] So I actually contacted the leading authority in the world on vitamin deficiency diseases who is out here at the University of California Berkeley who had written books on scurvy on Barry Barry and we talk this so I said look you know this world better than I do.

Gary [00:20:04] Is it possible that you need more vitamin C when you're eating carbohydrates than when you're not. And it turns out that basically Vitamin C competes for entry into cells with the same receptor system that glucose does wow. So when your blood sugar is high you can't get Vitamin C into your cells and it's one reason why diabetes type 2 diabetes a lot of the symptoms and uncontrolled diabetes look a lot like scurvy because your cells become depleted of vitaminC.

Adam [00:20:38] So the Brits didn't need Lyme. They needed to get rid of the carbohydrate they need.

Gary [00:20:41] Exactly. So to the scurvy is not a disease of the absence of vitamin C it's a disease of not getting enough Vitamin C when you're also getting a carb rich diet that diet with refined grains and sugars.

Gary [00:20:56] And when you actually look again in the literature it's very clear about the fact that you need more vitamin C when you were eating carbs and when you're not. And now there's this whole carnivore movement and there are these guys walking around like Sean Baker who you know if the conventional nutrition theory were right these guys would have been dead years ago. They're doing fine. None of them have gotten scurvy yet and yet they don't eat plant food they live on. I don't know. Maybe they're supplementing Vitamin C without telling us. But I've asked them about it and they swear they're not.

Mike [00:21:29] Gary you know we have a lot of clients friends of our family members who actually you know there are people we have to convert to you know this way of thinking in your era your book. But there's a lot of people actually already believe what you're saying and what we've been preaching for a while but they just can't stick to a no carb diet a low carb diet. And I mean all of our clients that they could go a week they could go to weeks they could go three weeks they get the results and then whatever the next party the next whatever they fall off the off the wagon again. And do you have any like any advice for how to get these people to like step one step two step three. I guess a behavior or whatever to to be more compliant to what they already know is the right way to go.

Gary [00:22:19] You know it's funny, I'm just finished a draft of my new book and the last chapters talk about this and in fact I have these I interviewed 100 plus physicians I wish I had interviewed you guys.

Adam [00:22:30] So all you know is anyways you're going to hear here first before your books been published.

Gary [00:22:35] And I was asking him about the challenges and he had the biggest challenge getting people to try it and then getting them to stick with it even when it works well because they fall off the wagon and one of the messages that I'm communicating which was forget at the moment which physicians said this to me it was in mind. She said the key to falling off the wagon is remembering that there's still a wagon to get back on to. Well it's an interesting problem I think you could address the issue of why they're eating might not have satisfied them. You know one of the things people don't realize is that. You really do need to may have kind of a fat rich pattern of eating you need a lot of it's the fat that brings you joy to the diet. So it's not enough to just eat a low carb diet. You have to replace those carbohydrates with fat and you kind of have to do it liberally or you end up with a very unsatisfying diet. You remove the sugar if you don't know and a lot of fat and then there's not a lot of joy in the eating.

Adam [00:23:37] Like Emeril says fat is flavor that it's fat.

Gary [00:23:40] It's just. So this is why I mean I joke that I'm not one of these people have convinced myself that that butter and bacon are health foods and I hope that hell I'm right.

Gary [00:23:49] But hold on to the butter and bacon that bring joy to the diet. I actually had a physicist friend at Berkeley here. I used to think he was really bright until he said to me these diets work because people just get bored of eating bacon after a while and they can they eat less. And I said Well first I'm going to challenge this idea that anyone's ever gotten bored of eating bacon.

Gary [00:24:13] You know the rest we could do experiments but it's sort of...

Mike [00:24:16] You can eat a little too much at one time but you can get bored of bacon.

Gary [00:24:21] I mean the message is you know and then I keep an eye on this book I was asked to write a book. That was I wanted to write a book that was a prescriptive book that was going to be Gary's food worlds like Michael Pollan did Omnivore's Dilemma and In Defense of Food and then he wrote Food Rules so I would have my good calories bad calories why we get fat.

Gary [00:24:41] And my version of food rules and I couldn't do it. And one of the reasons I couldn't do it is because the message I keep wanting to get across is you know some of us didn't just need to abstain from eating carbohydrates. And this was said back in 1825 by this Frenchman who said why do people give you the most famous book ever written about food was a book called The physiology of taste by this guy John on somebody out Sabourin he says you know he's eating 500 meals with people who are overweight or obese and they always tell him how much they like the bread and potatoes and they can't live without the rice. And if you don't want to eat if you want to be fat you can't eat. He says you need more or less rigid abstinence too starchy flowery and sugary far to the diet. And we do. Some of us just. And you got to kind of get that across to people that they're not going to find another way to lose weight.

Gary [00:25:33] However they did accept bariatric surgery. However they do it they're going to end up having to get rid of the carbs because it's the carbs that are making them fat.

Gary [00:25:40] It's a simple message. It's like cigarette if you want lung cancer don't smoke and if you don't want to be family some people can smoke their whole life and not get lung cancer some people can eat carbs to their heart's desire and not get heavy. But those of us who get heavy can do it. So you fall off the wagon you get back on. For some people it's not worth it. But I think when you learn how to eat this way and you learn how it feels to actually be healthy and to you said to have your body work like a lean person's body so that you can eat to satiety and not get fat not worry about counting your calories and walking away hungry for many people it turns out to be worth it.

Adam [00:26:23] So let me ask you one last question before we sum this up. Why do people get so angered by advocates of the LC each If diets the low carbohydrate high fat diet. Why do you think there's something that evokes so much anger.

Gary [00:26:37] Well first of all. I think about this all the time. I mean I'm not gonna be able to give you a thoughtful answer. It's different from what they've been saying. For starters nobody likes to think they're wrong. So if you spend your whole life saying the way you lose weight is eating less or the way you lose weight is by eating a Mediterranean diet or a dash diet or it's all about I don't know what. And then these other people come along and say No no no no no no no you're wrong. Nobody likes to be wrong. And nobody likes to be wrong professionally. Because you've built your whole persona your credibility. Who you think you are. Then you're respected in the world because of what you believe and then these other people are coming along and thing you don't. You're wrong. That's part of it. And then it just it really goes against virtually all of the tenets of what constitutes a healthy diet. So it's not just said were telling people to eat fat and eat saturated fat meat processed foods like bacon. You know we're saying don't eat pulses and don't eat legumes and don't eat the whole grains and don't eat. You know and you know the traditional way of thinking about that's an eating disorder if you're cutting out a whole food group. That's what people do when they have an eating disorder. So we're just running up against a whole world of panic in the conventional thinking that pushes too many button. It's like asking people to vote for Hillary Clinton even if you're a Democrat you know it's like and you're a Republican. It's like you know what. No matter what you think of Trump Hillary pushes too many buttons. Right. Right. Right. You end up with the wrong president.

Adam [00:28:21] Well I have to say Gary I just want to say thank you for I think from a lot of people because you you are challenging these tenants and you've done a great job and you've gone you've done a lot to challenge those tenants. And I want to thank you for that and you've helped you've really helped me in a lot of our clients and keep up the good work. I really appreciate what you're doing.

Gary [00:28:44] Thank you.

Extro [00:28:44] This has been the inform fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman for over 20 years in fitness has been providing clients of all ages with customized personal training designed to build strength fast.

[00:28:59] Visit inform fitness dot com for testimonials blogs and videos on the three pillars exercise nutrition and recovery.

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An indepth dive into single joint and multi joint exercise movements with Dr. James Fisher, researcher & senior lecturer in sports conditioning & fitness at Southampton Solent University in the United Kingdom.
https://www.solent.ac.uk/staff-profiles/academic-profiles/james-fisher/james-fisher

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http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

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Inform_Ep 55_Fisher 1_March14 Transcript

Arlene [00:00:43] On this episode an in-depth dive into single joint and multi joint exercise movements with Dr. James Fisher researcher and senior lecturer in sports conditioning and fitness at South Hampton Solent university in the United Kingdom.

James [00:00:59] Things that this debate has come around. Is there a need for these additional single joint exercises or can we get a lot or all of the same benefits from only multi joint movements. And if we can and can we really abbreviate workouts down on the more abbreviated or workout becomes the more we might be able to get more people to exercise and simplify protocols for people that currently perceive exercise to be complicated and time consuming.

Adam [00:01:29] Welcome to the show I'm really happy to have Dr. James Fisher with us today. It's been a while since we've done a podcast is starting our fifth season and couldn't be happier to kick it off with Dr. James Fisher.

Adam [00:01:41] Dr.Fisher is a researcher and senior lecturer in sports conditioning and fitness at South Hampton Solent university in the United Kingdom. Dr. Fisher completed his HD from Nottingham Trent University and he has published more than 70 peer reviewed journal articles relating to exercise physiology and athletic performance. Much of his research considers methodological approaches to resistance exercise including modalities and advanced training techniques. He's also publish critical commentaries challenging existing paradigms and practices that have higher risk of injury and lack evidence of efficacy. So indeed he has publicly challenged which I like the notable academics and fallible processes in an attempt to ensure that scientific publications pertaining to resistance exercise preserve honesty and application. Finally James has published multiple large review articles aiming to provide trainers and trainees with an evidence based approach to optimizing resistance exercise for improving muscular strength purchase fee and cardiovascular fitness. So he sees as a priority of his academic position too to bridge the gap between what science says and what people are actually doing out there in the real world. James also by the way was a great Britain Paralympic basketball coach from 2008 to 2013 including the London 2012 Games. Very cool. He has been a tutor with the UK Anti-Doping organisation and is an IFBB accredited weight training prescription specialist and he speaks all around the world. With any remaining time he well he sleeps now actually. He is a proud husband and father and a competitive cyclist. Welcome James.

James [00:03:23] Thank you very much Adam and thanks for that introduction. It's amazing what I can write them myself send them across.

Adam [00:03:29] Actually we're going to talk about today James. We talked about this earlier. We want to talk about compound movements very simple movements. Won't you just help us define. First of all the difference between a compound movement and a simple movement or is otherwise known as multi joint movement and single joint movements.

James [00:03:45] Yeah absolutely. So let's start with a single joint. So a single joint or an isolation movement is a movement normally around one axis or around a single axis. It's normally a single muscle or muscle group working to perform that movement in a rotary fashion which is the way the body works for example a knee extension or a knee curl bicep curl or TRICEP EXTENSION. In contrast the compound movement has a linear output because it's multiple joints working around a rotary fashion but because there are multiple joints the outcome is linear. So it's normally a chest press an overhead press a leg press because it's multiple joints it's multiple it's multiple muscle groups to produce stop that movement.

Adam [00:04:29] Very good. We've covered this before in other episodes but I wanted to just review that real quick before we get into the weeds here. So what is the debate between compound movements and simple movements?

James [00:04:40] Well I guess the debate sort of springs back to where resistance trading as we as we probably currently see it as a product of body building originates from from having a high volume of training and the perception that we need to target muscles individually as well as left heavy weights by doing come from movements. And of course you know also obviously Arthur Jones obviously said or suggested that the last didn't get sufficient stimulus from things like a pull down or a chain exercise because they were the stronger muscle. So there was a need to do a single joint movement in the likes of the pullover and we know where that kind of led with Nautilus and so forth. So you know I think that this debate has come around of of you know is there a need for these additional single joint exercises or can we get a lot or all of the same benefits from only multi joint movements. And if we can then can we really abbreviate workouts down on the more abbreviated or workout becomes the more we might be able to get more people to exercise and simplify protocols for for people that currently perceived exercise to be complicated and time consuming.

Adam [00:05:54] Yeah you know that reminds me when you talked about the bodybuilding world feeling that these single join or simple movements are necessary to build muscle and create hypertrophy hypertrophy is a fancy word for just getting getting big getting swaddle reminds me of an episode we did with the body builder Doug Brignole and he is he's of the belief that you definitely need to do single joint movements for hypertrophy for sure and multiple sets in large volume and really kind of pooh poohed the idea that you need movements for that effect.

James [00:06:30] Yeah. I think a lot of bodybuilders do this because they you know let's take a typical bodybuilding workout of you know very high volume you know five to 10 sets of exercises and an hours and hours spent in the gym doing various split routines. Well if they're going to target a single muscle group or only a couple of muscle groups in a workout. But they want to allocate two hours of time to training. Well they're not going to they're probably not going to allocate themselves through 20 or 30 sets of a bench press or a chest press or a shoulder press so they add in multiple single joint movements which is understandable for variety. And if they feel that that volume is necessary but I think that this is the way the question has arisen is that volume really necessary. We all know the kind of single multiple set debate but but I guess that this is a transitioned into a single joint multi joint exercise. I know bodybuilders still like the single joint movement but I think for the masses there the evidence points in a different direction.

Adam [00:07:35] Okay. So speaking of evidence. So you did a review article. I'll read it. I'll read the title it's called a review of the acute effects of long term adaptations of single and multi joint exercises during resistance training. Well why don't we start with the conclusion. Well what what did you end. We can get it. You know we can kind of break down a little bit but what what did you ultimately find out when you compared the efficacy of multi joint exercises versus single joint or combination thereof.

Adam [00:08:03] Yeah. So the preponderance of research was done on upper body muscles. So for example the biceps and triceps most of the measurements are taken on the limb muscles rather than the torso muscles so that's worth clarifying. First of all the conclusions basically all out there. There are no benefits to performing single joint movements in addition to multi joint exercises. So to put that in context if you're looking for a bicep or tricep growth then performing a multi joint movement such as the chest press or a lap pulled down will produce let's say a lot pulled down will produce similar growth in the biceps and strength increases in the biceps as a lot pulled down and a bicep curl. And the same thing is true for the triceps less has been done to look at the muscles of the trunk. Very little has been done to look at the muscles of the lower body. So those are the conclusions from the paper.

Adam [00:08:59] OK. So one of the markers you used to test and compare was this thing called electro Myo graphic activation.

James [00:09:06] Yeah.

Adam [00:09:06] Otherwise known as what. As EMG.

James [00:09:09] SEMG surface yeah.

Adam [00:09:12] It would be interesting for some of our listeners understand some of the tests are actually occurring and how researchers are actually testing these things. So what exactly is that. By the way.

James [00:09:21] So surface EMG is basically you put electrodes on a muscle and you measure the amount of electrical activity within the muscle. So as it contracts has a higher degree of electrical activity and you're measuring that across a course of muscle. This is generally a proxy for motor unit activation which which is basically the. Which includes the activation of muscle fibers or the recruitment of muscle fibers so where we see higher EMG readings. That's generally a perception that there are more motor units being activated and more muscle fibers being recruited.

Adam [00:10:00] So what you're finding then when you're comparing multi joint exercise is the single joint exercise you're finding that the EMG activation is the same regardless.

James [00:10:11] We found that the EMG was pretty similar and there was a couple of studies. There was a study that springs to mind with the lower body for this for EMG actually where we found you know very similar activation the quadriceps whether you're performing a leg press or a knee extension. So yes the muscle activation seems to be pretty similar perhaps marginally higher for four single joint movements which is which is something the bodybuilders will lean against to say oh well that's higher due to recruitment but if I take away from or if I thought the detract from electro Magnifique it's only an acute measure. So it's only a snapshot in time. So so whilst it might imply a measurement of muscle activation which is like I said it's only a proxy. Oh sorry I might give a measure of muscle activation. It only gives a proxy for motor unit recruitment muscle fiber equipment and doesn't give any guidance towards muscle fiber adaptation both for strength or muscle cross-sectional area. So a surface EMG is a great tool for scientists to play with but I constantly tell practitioners honestly it doesn't mean a lot in the real world. What you want to look at is is chronic studies. I've looked at muscle size and muscle strength.

Adam [00:11:36] So you're saying that there is not a correlation between necessarily higher muscle activation or muscle recruitment towards muscle hypertrophy or strength.

James [00:11:46] Yeah I think that's a fact. I think that fair common. I don't think that there is a good a good relationship between the two. And like I said it's a service life elected mammography is really a snapshot in time so its logic suggests that if you see higher muscle activation and that does equate to motor unit activation and muscle fiber recruitment then that exercise would be better for growth and strength. And it's completely logical to assume that but the test is will instead of just looking at self of mammography let's look at the muscle. Did it get bigger and did it get stronger. And let's look at it over time rather than a snapshot. So let's look at it over 8 10 12 24 weeks and when we do that we don't see differences.

Adam [00:12:34] You also looked at besides surface level activation you also looked at muscle damage and fatigue. Correct?

James [00:12:40] Yeah absolutely.

Adam [00:12:41] And so there's a correlation there like for example that you found that a single joint exercises if I remember correctly that the single joint exercises created slightly more muscle damage and fatigue than this multiple joint exercises. Yet once again you didn't see much difference in my approach for your strength gains.

James [00:12:59] Yeah absolutely. So yeah the studies really really do support if you do a single joint movement then that's going to produce a greater fatigue in that muscle compared to multi joint movement. So if I do a bicep curl then that's going to produce great fatigue in the biceps then a pull down exercise.

Mike [00:13:20] That's what Brignole is kind of his point is that maybe he's saying and that's why he supports that.

James [00:13:26] From what I can gather from the podcast that you did with Doug. Yeah I think that's why he was getting at and he talked a bit about muscle damage as a product of the single trade movements. But again this is moving out of my my remit it muscle damage is a very very big research area and it's not my specific area. There's a guy called Philippe Moss over in Brazil who's an expert in this and more recently he suggested against single measurements of muscle damage are really not a good indicator of long term muscle growth there needs to be a kind of a sustained or that needs to be a sustained amount of muscle damage berfore the muscle will kind of consider adding size to that. So my fiber and I think size of the muscle and then of course that needs to be appropriate recovery between trainer sessions. So it's not just a single dose.

Mike [00:14:17] I guess the trick is to figure out how to calculate what that dose is how much damage is necessary.

Adam [00:14:24] You know how much recovery is necessary based on that damage.

James [00:14:28] Well these are the key questions because we can we can all go into the gym and cause a massive amount of muscle damage. Or we go way beyond what we need to do and therefore you know creating quite debilitating effects towards recovery. And I think that this is where the high intensity training community are far more measured in their approach that you take that you perform a minimal amount of muscle damage or minimal stimulus to promote recovery adaptation.

Adam [00:14:59] Yeah well being in the trenches for as many years I've been training thousands Mike and I trained thousands of people. It varies from individual as well you know. So some people recover a lot faster than others some people can even go that deep and get to that level of muscle. So it's really becomes an observational thing and experience as an instructor to to figure out for the individual what what is best for them how deep to go how much inroad how much recovery if any for.

Mike [00:15:26] And frequency as well. Yeah.

Adam [00:15:30] But getting back to that to the topic of compound versus simple movements and of course this is related. Did you find that for compound movements do you need more recovery than simple movements if you did say for example a workout that had all simple movements and then you compare that to work out that were primarily compound movements and did you look at the recovery ability for each.

James [00:15:53] OK. You put me on the spot bit. I don't recall whether we had a paper that had looked at the long term response fatigue or discomfort. There is a paper that springs to mind again by I think a Brazilian guy called SUA Suarez. I think it was and he looked at recovery in single joint movements. I think it was in the bicep curl and he sort of reported a high high degree of dogs kind of muscle fatigue. You know 48 and I think even extended 72 hours so but I don't recall that being a study which compared single joint multi joint for that I might be I may be wrong if I go back and look at the paper it was published a couple of years back so.

Adam [00:16:37] What is it. Well obviously this is a consideration and these are one of the questions that we need to be answered over time as we do more research and exercise. So a lot of question marks obviously. So in conclusion let let's wrap this up. I just wanted to ask now about application. So here we find that it doesn't seem that there is much of a difference between the effectiveness of simple joint movements versus compound movements. So. Would you therefore suggest that people if they wanted to work out or trainers as they train their clients do they do primarily do you recommend that primarily do the multi joint exercises over the single joint. Mix them up alter or what.

James [00:17:20] So so to wrap up the research generally suggests that there are no greater adaptations to performing single joint in addition to multi joint exercises that really multi joint exercises are sufficient with the exception of the lumbar expenses. So I've performed or I've conducted a few studies where we've looked at the low back and we've used the medics medical lumbar extension machine. We've looked at deadlifts squats we've looked at hip thrusts we've looked at kettlebell swings and we found that all of these as multi joint movements don't provide sufficient stimulus to increase the strength of the lumbar expenses. So it looks like this muscle because of the nature of the pelvic rotation and therefore the activation of the glutes and the hamstrings this muscle does need specific training. Isolate the training and we might find the same thing is true for other muscles. For example the gastric themis might not get sufficient stimulus from a like pressure or a squat exercise. But at the moment the preponderance of evidence suggests that multi joint exercises are sufficient. Now the way I pitch this from a practical perspective is that a trainer or a trainee should perform multi joint compound movements first in that workout. So if you said to me you've only got one workout to do today well I might do a deadlift or like press if you said you've got two workouts I might add a chest press or an overhead press a third a third exercise might be another compound movement a fourth might be an additional compound movement. So I'm prioritizing in the first maybe four or five exercises compound movements. Now if people feel like they can do four or five compound movements to a high enough intensity of effort to stimulate good adaptation and they want to do more well then they might move into targeting the biceps for the bicep curl or the deltoid through the lateral raise or the quadriceps for the knee extension. And I don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with that. If they want to perform a higher volume of trading but I think you're really dealing with the minutiae of adaptation. Now I think you're probably going to get most of the adaptations in the multi joint and then the best maybe a little bit more from the single joint but of course we have to remember those single joint movements might incur a greater degree of fatigue and discomfort which might prevent a workout sooner the next workout being sooner rather later.

Adam [00:19:56] Right, recovery. And I also think you mentioned that there is a place for single joint movements for example to correct muscular imbalances. So it's not like we're throwing single joint movements out you know they do have their place and also like you said there are certain muscle groups like maybe the calves and biceps and I do want to know by the way as a bit of a plug when you talked about the lumbar medics machines all our Inform Fitness studios have the medics lumber machines in order to isolate the lumber and fix the hips and place because that is a very difficult muscle group to isolate and therefore strengthen. And we've we've known that for years and that's why we have those machines at Inform Fitness, a little shameless plug right there.

James [00:20:39] Well they are most important machines exist in resistance training with the research we've done we see huge strength increases even in you know competitive powerlifting that can squat 300 something kilos you know 700 800 pounds that have you know lower back no stronger than mine and for clarity I don't squat those kind of weights.

Adam [00:21:02] All right. You are a big strong guy though so you're very modest as well. Thank you so much James. That was great. What's next? What's next for the research in this are you doing anything else right now?

James [00:21:13] Yeah so we've done another study looking at this right. We've looked at so I said most of the research was upper body. We've done another study looking at this in the lower body and it's not published yet so I generally don't get into too much detail. But we have the group that performed knee extension and leg curl exercise on a group that performed only leg press exercise and as a spoiler. We found that both groups made...

Adam [00:21:39] You are hearing it here first folks.

James [00:21:40] Yeah absolutely. Both groups made a fact what they did is the participants trained one leg with knee extension unlike curl on one leg would leg press. And we found that's quite a nice research design because it accommodates kind of nutritional variance or sleep variance genetics or it's things like that. And we found similar adaptations to both groups. Both groups improved to a significant increase. A significant amount on all the single joints of both the knee extension and the like. And on the leg press irrespective of why exercises they did we could use this to say well maybe this allows variety maybe for the next eight weeks all I need to do is train on a leg press but after that maybe I could do knee extensions and leg curl.

Mike [00:22:26] For like you're committed trainer a trainee rather who is in there to to get strong or whatever other long term people I think that variability is actually very important.

Adam [00:22:35] Psychologically psychologically why not.

Mike [00:22:37] Yes.

Adam [00:22:37] And there's no difference one way or the other. Why not. Right. Again James thank you so much. Dr. Fisher.

James [00:22:43] Thank you very much gentlemen. Thank you.

Arlene [00:22:45] This has been the Inform Fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman. For over 20 years Inform Fitness has been providing clients of all ages with customized personal training designed to build strength fast. Visit Inform Fitness dot com for testimonials blogs and videos on the three pillars... Exercise nutrition and recovery.

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Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers of InForm Fitness dispel some exercise myths that are often touted as truth by some popular TV trainers who are vying for ratings or authors who are looking to sell books. While some fitness myths are harmless, others might cause injury or simply just waste your time.

Adam Zickerman's Book – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution: http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen
For a FREE 20-Minute strength training full-body workout and to find an Inform Fitness location nearest you, please visit: http://bit.ly/Podcast_FreeWorkout

54 Debunking Exercise Myths Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS

exercise, people, stretching, muscle, workout, injury, myth, point, week, fitness, recreation, work, lower abs, podcast, vary, inform, cardio, indirect effect, client, ab exercises

SPEAKERS

Tim Edwards, Mike, Adam

Tim Edwards 00:00

The inform fitness podcast is brought to you by Audible. Get a Free Audiobook download and a 30 day free trial audible membership at audible trial.com forward slash inbound.

Mike 00:18

The broader purpose for why I think people do want to exercise is for their health. And underneath the umbrella of health is, you know, your body composition, your muscle mass, your endurance to do whatever you want to do, whether it's just walking upstairs a subway, or if it's a sport or something like that. It's I know, we discussed this a little bit in previous podcasts, but I think it's sometimes gets into the, you know, goes into the myths a little bit when you're trying to think about a is there a perfect exercise? Is there one exercise to do everything? And then what could that be? And then of course, the answer is is different for everybody.

Tim Edwards 01:00

That was certified personal trainer Mike Rogers, who also happens to be the general manager of the inform fitness Manhattan location and of course, co hosts for the past 53 episodes of the inform fitness podcast. Welcome in. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting network. And this is episode number 54. Today, Mike Rogers and the founder of inform fitness, Adam Zickerman, dispel a few exercise myths that are often touted as truth by some popular TV trainers who are vying for ratings or authors who are looking to sell books. While some fitness myths are harmless, others might actually cause injury or simply just waste your time. Some of the myths discussed in this episode, are will women bulk up if they participate in the inform fitness slow motion high intensity strength training protocol? Is there one perfect exercise for everyone? Or how about the myth that if you want to see results, you have to vary your exercise regime that will be discussed and debated in this episode, as well as, does soreness indicate a good workout. So let's get to it and let Mike Rogers and Adam Zickerman otherwise known as the guru, debunk some of the not so helpful exercise myths.

Adam 02:14

Okay, everybody, welcome to the show. Mike and I are going solo today.

Mike 02:18

We are?

Adam 02:18

Yeah, no, no interview. No, no guests, just you and me.

Mike 02:21

If we're if it's two of us, are we solo or we duo?

Adam 02:24

Oh, alright, so we're gonna be talking about the 10 most popular myths in exercise. So Myth number one, that there is a magic bullet to losing weight. As far as exercise program. There's the particular perfect exercise to lose weight. Basically, what I meant by that question was cardio do you need to do cardio to lose weight? Most people think, yes. In order to really lose weight, you got to add cardio to workout? And when you say no, right?

Mike 02:47

I don't think all the answers are black and white. Frankly, I think in general, most of the people that we've experienced, and we've worked with and from all the science that we read, No, it does not require cardio in the conventional sense in order to lose weight. I mean, that's so that's what you were meant by, there's one perfect exercise to lose weight, because that is also another one of them, which is you need to do cardio to lose weight.

Adam 03:11

Yeah. All right. So a little redundant. And I think you're right. I mean, there's no perfect workout for any group of people. I mean, it's what's best for you.

Mike 03:20

The thing is, people associate lots of different activities as exercise. And sometimes we've been very strict with the concept of what's recreation, what's exercise. And other times I think we've been a little bit lenient on what those things are, because we know that certain action, certain things that people do for exercise, are really recreation, but they have a, quote unquote, exercise effect associated with them. And I think that's why a lot of the points that we're going to discuss are what people think in the conventional traditional sense. But I think, why I think it's worth having this podcast and discussing them is because I think it's it's trying to create understanding. So hopefully, we can be talking the same language when we are discussing,

Adam 03:58

it's more nuanced than people think like when we do talk about exercise, we have a real definition of exercise as strength training. But sometimes I don't like confusing issue with clients by saying, well, that's not really exercise, that's more recreation. And the thing is, in their mind, that doesn't make sense and adds more confusion when you start. So then you have started saying, Well, my version of exercise means strength training and doing it safely. And everything else to me, is like recreational pursuits. But the thing is, we want you to be active. And if you want to call that exercise now as a matter of just like, semantics, so I don't want I don't like confusing issues. So okay, let's call steady state exercise, let's call it riding on a moderate level of bicycle or going on a treadmill at a moderate level, and reading a magazine to the point where you can read a magazine or you pass the talk test, right while you're doing you can have a conversation, which is the talk test. You know, I call that recreation, because it doesn't fit the actual definition, our very strict definition of exercise. Nonetheless, we recommend that you do high intensity exercise once or twice a week and then moderate activity the rest of the week and if you want to call that activity, sport or recreation or exercise, so be it. I'm not gonna nitpick on words.

Mike 05:06

right? Sometimes people misunderstand us when we are

Adam 05:08

when we say that's not exercise. When we say that's not exercise, what do you mean? That's not exercise? It's good cardio and stuff like that. Yeah. And you start getting into a fight instead of really making influencing people don't bother getting activity. So what I do, like, for example, I was I was at a party. And I was introduced to this guy who was doing the workout with me for many, many years. And it's a good friend of his and I was introduced him for the first time. So what is this 20 minute workout? do really think 20 minutes once a week is enough exercise. And again, here we go again, because you know, people think really, you should be doing exercise every day of some sort. And I won't disagree with that, except my definition of exercise is really just the high intensity part. So instead of doing saying that to him, I said, No, I don't think it's enough. I actually said, No, I think it's enough for the intense part of your week. So I started instead of redefining exercise and recreation for him, what I did instead was frame intensity, and moderation. I said, No, it's not enough. Overall, it's enough for your intense bouts of exercise. You shouldn't do much more than really intense exercise once or twice a week for about 20 minutes at a time, after that moderate activity of any kind, given your tolerance for risk is fine with me. And he's like, oh, and he's like, okay, and I didn't have to get into the whole exercise verse, recreation, argument and definition. So that, you know, that's a case in point,

Mike 06:29

when you are defining things and trying to create, I think, if you're going into thinking about what is the purpose, the broader purpose for why I think people do want to exercise is for their health. And underneath the umbrella of health is, you know, your body composition

Adam 06:44

absolutely

Mike 06:44

your your muscle mass, your endurance to do whatever you want to do, whether it's just walking upstairs a subway, or if it's a sport or something like that. It's I know, we've, we've discussed this a little bit in previous podcasts, but I think it's sometimes gets into the, you know, goes into the myths a little bit when you're trying to think about a, is there a perfect exercise? Is there one exercise to do everything? And then what could that be? And then of course, the answer is no. And or I should say, it's different for everybody, you know,

Adam 07:14

right. So um, yeah, let's move on. Let's move on to something that's more black and white. All right. Women who lift weights will bulk up.

Mike 07:20

Yeah, I mean, a lot of women are afraid to bulking up and the question we get in every single consultation and many of them

Adam 07:29

I just can't believe in this day and age in 2018, that women still have that fear of bulking up from weight training, it kind of blows my mind. Yet, it does exist still. And there are some women on the extremes of the bell curve that actually do bulk up by working out but there's so there's so few of them. Like you have a better chance of becoming a rock star than bulking up from working out with weights.

Mike 07:52

But I think you know, sometimes I think when some people when they exercise, or they do a new form of exercise, sometimes they have that initial gain that initial adaptation. And I think sometimes it may manifest itself initially as a little bit of increased muscle size, which maybe intimidate people you associate that within your mind seeing other power lifting females who are looking to increase their size, in a way, I guess most women who are afraid of it do not want to, frankly, Adam, it doesn't surprise me that this still exists over all this time. You know, I think people they want their bodies to look a certain way they have insecurities about certain things, they want to make sure that they are going in the right direction. I understand why they believe that but then as you pointed out, the fact is that usually that is a those are outlying scenarios. And and for most people, unless they have certain genetics to where they're going to have that predisposition, they're just going to be gonna be just fine. They're probably going to have a similar body composition as they have always had. And we're just hopefully more more muscle and they'll be stronger and more capable to do whatever they want to do. Very good. Thank you for that very in depth analysis. did I ramble too much?

Adam 09:02

a little bit. Yeah, a little bit too.

Mike 09:04

I'm working. I am working on trying to be more succinct.

Adam 09:06

Yeah, let's try it out. Okay,

Mike 09:08

If it's a stretching one, forget about it.

Adam 09:17

Let's try this one. But in order to see really good results, you have to constantly bury your exercise change, change it up a lot.

Mike 09:25

I think that's a really interesting topic because

Adam 09:29

see, you're already too long.

Mike 09:32

Okay, can't you just say yes or no! The myth is, is it important to vary your exercises

Adam 09:39

to maximize your results?

Mike 09:42

Right. I think in the general sense for the reasons why people feel they have to do that. I think the answer is simply simply no.

Adam 09:52

Oh my god, I can't believe it. He actually,

Mike 09:54

but from my experience people once again are very, very, very different.

Adam 10:01

Alright, so if somebody said to me if somebody was in my office and hey, do I have to vary my exercise workout and right off, I would say actually, no point is, ultimately, if you pick five exercises that works out the whole body, and you do those intensely enough, and that varies from person to person, how intense it needs to be. And if you do it often enough, which can probably be anywhere from once to me maybe even three times a week, again, the variables being intensity and age and things like that, but but once you find your sweet spot, alright, and and you are getting stronger and staying stronger, five exercises, you know, like a leg press or legs or squat, a push ups or pull ups or a varying amount of exercise will work all the muscles in your body, and it can only be maybe five or six, or even less exercises to do that. And you can stay very strong your whole life doing that. So so the answer is no, you don't have to vary your exercise. Now, having said that, varying exercises can have lots of value people vary, people have different injuries, so that you might have to do different exercises with them to get to all the muscles and, and work around certain injuries. But also, from a psychological point of view, people to motivate people to stick with the program, they get bored. And if it means varying exercise to deal with boredom and their personality of needing things to change, or else they're not going to sick charts pretty much. Yeah, then I'm all for that too. But it doesn't mean they need it in terms of their physicality and the physiology. But they but it's not doing it if it means not doing it, then yeah, let's bury the exercises. For some people. And that's my succinct answer. I'm gonna leave it at that for a lot for a lot of people, I think they are motivated by newness. Okay. And and I mean, we have I have tons of clients, they absolutely love doing the same five exercise all the time, and they get phenomenal results. So a lot has to do with psychological motivation. But I think just to add on to your point, I think people think that adaptation is a bad thing. And I think that's the thing that I think is like is on its head. I think people think that like when you do the chest press so many times, like, oh, you know, Mike, I felt so so when I first started coming here, and I never feel sore anymore. And they think oh, that's a really, really bad thing. And I therefore I didn't have as good of a workout anyway. I think that's the big that confusing factor because people associate soreness, and that with oh, there's a myth for you right there. By the way, does soreness indicate a good workout if you don't get sore. Did you have a shitty workout? Absolutely not. A lot of people do believe that

Mike 12:35

there's the myth that I wanted on the list.

Adam 12:37

That's the myth he wanted on the list!

Mike 12:39

So no, but the thing is, when p90x and insanity and all those things came out, they the the word, the term muscle confusion became very popular.

Adam 12:49

I think that was confused, popular before that when I was on crossfire. I don't remember you had that. That what was the these Denise Austin, right? She said on CNN to, to balance. You know what I said? Which, you know, I was basically making the point that you don't have to keep varying exercise. And she made the point. No, you got to confuse the muscle. Yeah. And I just said, Wait a second, how do you confuse the muscle muscles? Don't think, right? Don't you have to think to be confused, you know? And so and then they got a chuckle from the audience when I said that. So you know, but yes, a lot of people do think that you again, you have to keep varying it to get results. But I just made the point that that hasn't been proven at all

Mike 13:28

right.

Adam 13:29

And I have clients for years, I don't vary very much from their routine. Again, not to say that some people respond better to variation and things like that I don't really have a problem with variation. But this idea that you have to constantly vary for variation sake to confuse muscle, which is a nebulous term. It's just misleading. And it can lead to a lot of injuries for people. And it goes hand in hand with that myth of soreness being an important factor because when you do change workout a lot, you do get sore more often. But soreness in and of itself has not been proven to be an indicator of a good workout.

Mike 14:01

But one last thing I was saying variance again, doesn't really mean different exercises, it could also mean like changes in frequency or

Adam 14:09

maybe the order of the exercises or things like that

Mike 14:12

But I think that's where if you're going to try and that's what I try to do first before anything else try to create a little bit of variance in the exercise itself but exactly like how I would actually do that exercise.

Adam 14:25

one more point I want to make about variation before we go and I'll make a quick and that is the more you vary an exercise and change the order of things and change the exercise it's harder to quantify results because you want to compare apples to apples. So I like to try to keep variation to a minimum or at least consistently vary things so I can compare workout to workout and really measure true progress. I hope that makes sense. Alright, let's let's move on a little bit. Another myth another big myth is the stretching thing. Alright, everyone thinks you have to stretch. Everyone thinks specifically that when you stretch your lengthing muscle when stretch that you're preventing injury enhancing athletic performance. I'm not a big proponent of that I just don't, I don't, but science doesn't show it. I've never been able to really, in my 20 years, seen people drastically improve their flexibility to the point where it's made a big change in a life. I mean, I haven't seen it, people are who they are, I think people have tried to become more flexible, and work against their genetics and their skeletal structure, which was really largely determines their their amount of flexibility. There's nothing you can do about that. For example, when you have very deep hip sockets, you not as flexible, your femur can't move out as wide when it's deep into hip socket. But there are a lot of people that have very shallow hip sockets and allows their femur to go a lot wider. So somebody who has very deep hip socket that's trying to do a split is going to just end up really screwing up their joint, their hip joint it to the point where they're going to need surgery and serious injuries. So this idea of enhancing flexibility to improve performance or, or some kind of notion that being more flexible is healthier. It's just it's just hasn't been shown to be true at all. But I know I always get a lot of pushback when I say this, because a lot of people feel good when they stretch, and they feel like they're more centered when they stretch. And I get that too. But that to me, again, we're getting back to definitions. To me, that is not necessarily stretching, that's more more of a neurological thing that when you do some light stretching, and it kind of lets your neurological system, trust that it's okay to go in that direction. Because of past trauma or muscle injuries in the past, you muscles tend to kind of guard against going out and being as flexible as they can be. But aside from some of that light stretching that overcomes those neurological issues, again, stretching has not been shown. And it had been a lot of studies to try to show it but the meta analysis of all these studies so far, and again, if you want to know how I feel about studies in general, listen to the podcast we did with Dr. Attia not too long ago. I'm not going to get into that right now. But the bottom line is, at this point it the jury is way out on the efficacy and how unnecessary stretching is, again, for the purpose of enhanced performance and sports and of course preventing injury. Now I know you have plenty to say on this,

Mike 17:12

I keep it I keep it short, I generally agree with every single thing you just said. I think it has a lot to do with definitions and what goes on in the mind what they're thinking about what is stretching and thing, I think when it comes to doing anything, like from waking up in the morning, and feeling tight to preparing yourself for a movement pattern that requires some sort of athletic, you know, a little bit more range of motion. I think what people some people think that static stretching is what you have to do. And I think that's the traditional sense of stretching, which I think is absolutely, there's no science to support that that actually works. And I think that's where most people's minds go when it comes to doing the stretch. But the thing is, if you are, say, really, really tight in your back and shoulders, and you reach your hands above your head, and then try to do a little bit of a rotation back with your shoulder and your arms. It actually when you bring your arms back to the front, it actually what you just essentially did was a short movement, it's a light stretch, it feels phenomenal. And you do feel like you have a little bit better range of motion in your shoulder. What exactly did happen when you did that? Like, well, apparently, like you release some synovial fluid which lubricates the joints, which can happen in a lot of little just movements. Yeah.

Adam 18:25

All that you're describing. Again, you know, that's to me, that's not really the kind of stretching I'm referring to.

Mike 18:32

Yeah, well, I think

Adam 18:34

you're referring to what I was saying about the movement patterns, biological connections, reminding your body that it can do this, it like you just said, as you move these joints, if you've been sedentary for a while, or static for a while, like sleeping or sitting at a desk for a while, it helps to get the synovial fluid, which is really, you know, the lubrication of our joints and the synovial fluid. It's like putting oil in your car. Yeah, that that's, that's all well and good.

Mike 18:58

The bottom line is the evidence does show that if you're going to like get up and just start doing static stretching, when your muscles aren't ready, it likely you're going it could cause an injury even before or even make you more susceptible for an injury before you work out.

Adam 19:11

Exactly. So another point to before we move on, because I think you know, we covered it. But stretching to really trying to lengthen the muscle actually weakens the muscle. And if you're doing that right before a sporting event, you can actually set yourself as a disadvantage for performance for that sporting event. And like you just said, also stretching a muscle like that. Not only makes it weaker, but again, you can actually set it up for an injury. So not only does stretching this not necessarily prevent injury. But depending upon how severe your stretching is you can actually be setting yourself up and increasing your risk for injury, not just reducing.

Mike 19:50

very quick, I think just to like just before we go on to the next myth,

Adam 19:53

sure.

Mike 19:53

I think it's a sort of prescribe. It's like for people who are thinking they're ridiculous. I have to stretch before Before I do something like I think the best sort of way to look at is, for example, if you're going to run, walk a little bit, and then jog a little bit, and then run jog a little faster and take, you're basically preparing yourself for increased range of motion when you're running by actually doing smaller movements that lead you into that activity. Yes, something like that.

Adam 20:20

And if you can't do a split, if you can't kick high, and you want to be a Rockette, you might not be able to be a Rockette. You know, if you're a thin, lean, fast, fast, fast runner, and you want to play football, you're probably better off trying to be like a safety or wide receiver or corner back not a lineman. And if you're a big bulky guy that's not too fast, but really strong. Maybe you want to be a lineman, not a not a sprinter. So you have to know what you're capable of. And we're not all capable of the same things just because we stretch being just because I stretch doesn't mean I can become a Rockette or gymnast. All right, moving on. Moving on. What else? Do you want to talk about?

Mike 20:59

You'd be a horrible Rockette.

Adam 21:00

I'd be. I'm not tall enough. But I think I'm pretty enough

Mike 21:06

I mean, this is kind of an easy one. But I think still people really do get this wrong. And that is, the more time you work out. The more fit you will be,

Adam 21:14

ah, the old more the more you work out, the more fit you'll be trick

Mike 21:19

how many, how many times over the years where we've taken people who've had five, six days of exercise a week and then come down and they've looked better, the energy was better, their performance was better. And they've actually lost weight even more

Adam 21:32

exactly the more you work out, the better it is that the more fit you'd be the healthier you'll get. All right now this this reminds me of Dr. McGuff's dose response relationship of medicine, and just like medicine exercises a stimulus and you could overdose on it. And it reminds me of an analogy that I make. And that is if you come in and you have an infection, you have a you have a bacterial infection, and you got a cough and your nose is running. And you know, you got a bug and the doctor determines it's bacterial and gives you a antibiotic, right? So you take the pill, and he tells you to take one a day for 10 days. And you have to take the whole course right? Oh, you know what a day for 10 days and you say to him, but Doc, you know, I got to go to a bar mitzvah in five days, I got my nephew's Bar Mitzvah, what am I gonna do? I mean, what I'm going to do is, if you don't mind, I'm going to actually instead of taking one a day for 10 days, I'm gonna actually take two a day, for five days. It's the same thing, right? I mean, I'll get if I take two a day, I'll get better twice as fast. And of course, the doctor. And most people realize that that doesn't work that way, right, you end up just taking too much, that's not gonna, you're not gonna get better twice as fast. And the same thing with exercise. When people say to me, should I do twice a week, should I work out three times a week, as if if you add another day, you're gonna, you're gonna double your results or triple your results. It just doesn't happen that way, you have to let the body body can only handle and grow and adapt. At a certain rate. It's limited by how fast a muscle could adapt to a stimulus. So no, it's like Goldilocks and three bears, you know, you have to do it just right. If you don't do it often enough. It's not enough exercise. If you do too often, it's too much. And it can have detrimental effects, injuries, and overtraining. And you just got to find that balance, a perfect balance, where where you're balancing rest and recovery and intensity. So

Mike 23:28

the dosage is definitely that's variable. That is something it's not the same

Adam 23:32

It's variable for everybody. But again, like we said earlier in this episode, you know, you have to modulate intensity. So if you are doing one or two really intense workouts a week, the rest of the week, if you're going to work out or do some kind of quote unquote, exercise for the rest of the week. Just make sure it's it's you're not doing something crazy all out, you know, every single day of the week, playing basketball at a very high level. And then the next day, running it at a six minute mile pace, a seven minute mile pace, and then the next day doing your high intensity work and everything every time you exercise, it's always all out. That is no Yeah, it doesn't make you better.

Mike 24:10

Hey, the bullet points are A exercise is a stimulus, and B, your rest and recovery is directly related to the level of intensity. So if it's if it's high intensity, you need more time after the actual exercise

Adam 24:23

True, you made something succinct. Excellent. There you go. Good job. Ok

Mike 24:27

I take after the greatest.

Adam 24:28

All right, you're learning see and only 20 minutes you learn. Alright, what else we're going to talk about?

Mike 24:34

Ah, let's see a list we see you cannot exercise while injured.

Adam 24:38

Well, yeah, well, that depends, right?

Mike 24:40

It depends.

Adam 24:41

Well, this is the point. The point is, let's say let me give you an example. Just happened just happened a minute. And this is this is one of hundreds of examples I can give you after 20 years of doing this. Two days ago, a client of mine who happens to be a medical doctor, which is interesting. She says to me, I broke my finger. I recently just broke my finger. And the doctor says, I'm not the fingers not gonna be better. And It sounds like a joke. Yeah. So this doctor walked in this client walked in, said, Hey, Doc, I broke my finger,

Mike 25:12

I got this duck on my head. I said, Well, you can't exercise.

Adam 25:16

She says to me this, and my doctor told me that my thing is not going to be better for another four, six weeks that, you know, Take Me Out Of Schedule until until I was like, wait, you broke, you know, she's so she felt that she had a broken finger. And therefore she can't grip things. And she gets to do certain things that, you know, let's scrap the whole thing. And she wrote at the end of her email, to me saying that you couldn't do it for four to six weeks. She's like, Ah, so frustrating. So I wrote back, have no fear that you can, first of all, work your whole lower body, we can do a lot of upper body exercises that don't require you using your finger at all. And it's important to exercise when you're injured. Because the

Mike 25:51

we're fortunate to have equipment, because there's a lot of places that don't have a flying machine without a grip on it, or rotary at the rowing torso, which involves no gripping, and he can get pretty good anterior and posterior upper body muscle,

Adam 26:06

there's something called indirect effect. And that is, if you can't exercise a particular part of your body, that's okay, work out the parts that you can because they will have an indirect effect on the strength of the immobile part of the body that you can't use. They will atrophy less if you're still active, and you're still working out despite the injury. Now, I don't want you doing things that are exacerbate that injury. Absolutely. And I know my client was being very cautious and conservative when she wanted to cancel appointments. But she Little did she know about indirect effect and the fact that there's lots of things we can do that won't exacerbate her current injury. And she when I when I pointed out to her, she was like, All right, keep me in a schedule. Thank you. So yes, you can work out when injured, obviously, check with a professional and make sure what you're doing is not going to exacerbate your injury. But it's actually if you can, is better do what you can while you're injured. So when you do get back into the game, and your injury is healed. You're not starting from ground zero, you're starting from a higher level.

Mike 27:09

Oh, yeah, exactly. Oftentimes, like mobility and work is what exactly what you need in order to get better. Yeah.

Adam 27:16

How did I do on that one?

Mike 27:18

I give you a B plus

Adam 27:19

B plus. All right. Okay, this is this is a big one. This is a big, big, big one. All right, that Mike, let me see how you do on this one. All right. I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna pretend I'm a client making this comment. You're gonna respond to me.

Mike 27:32

Okay.

Adam 27:32

All right, Mike.

Mike 27:34

Yes.

Adam 27:35

What can we do for this? My lower abs, you know, I'm pretty happy with the upper part of my abs. But down here, I got kinda like this. This, like, pooch pouch, whatever, you know, like, I have three kids. And, you know, it just my lower abs are just a mess. You know, can we do some lower ab exercises, please? Can we emphasize the lower abs.

Mike 27:56

Yeah, a lot of people come in, and they have they want to work their lower abs, they say and because of the whatever they they report, the pooch and stuff like that. Sometimes that's just some alterations with their nutrition that they have to actually just get

Adam 28:12

to the point about whether you can work your lower abs or not. I know you can isolate.

Mike 28:16

I was given this speech 100 times about nerve innervation. And the rectus abdominus.

Adam 28:22

You don't have to go like that. Oh, can you? Can you isolate your lower abs Michael?

Mike 28:25

You cannot. If you're talking about the rectus abdominus? No, you cannot.

Adam 28:25

Thank you very much, let's move on to the next.

Mike 28:37

Everybody clear on that. I know

Adam 28:40

you can isolate your lower abs, right? It's one long muscle attached to the top of your rib down to your pubic bone. And when you lower abs contract, so does your upper abs.

Mike 28:49

That is a fact the thing is people feel it differently because they've either done a crunch from the lower part of the body or the upper part of the body sometime, but they are not. I think I think they also confuse that with their hip flexors, which is another which is just kind of around the waist and gets confused with the lower abs sometimes

Adam 29:07

Yeah,

Mike 29:07

but the the, the big thing is people don't they think that if I just do lower ab exercises, because they feel it, they're actually just getting their lower abs. But in fact,

Adam 29:17

I have my clients tested where I do when they when they think that is it. Look, watch, check this out, put your hand put one hand here, and I put their finger like on the lower abs. And then I say put another hand over here. I put on the upper abs and I have to do it to some type of abdominal, you know, spinal flexion. And lo and behold, they feel a contract in both spots. like huh, what do you what do you know about that? You know, and so the point is, they're like you were about to say, that rudely interrupted you, you know, when somebody has thought, yeah, I don't know. I haven't eaten very much.

Mike 29:50

Have you been watching the news again?

Adam 29:55

Your point was, you know what? People sometimes store fat in the lower ab, especially women that have had children, you know, and they're genetically predisposed to have that pooch. It's tough to get rid of that no matter how much exercise that's not necessary, even night or anything. Yeah, yeah. So unfortunately, there might not be much you can do in the way of exercise for that thing. For that problem. Certainly, we don't want to mislead people think that if you start doing some exercises, that that kind of way you feel in the lower part of the abdominals, that that's going to give them some kind of benefit. I don't want to give that kind of false hope. And I want to be honest about what what the facts are. Some people don't like to hear that. And sometimes they didn't want to believe it. But that that, that is the truth. You know, hey, you have two beautiful kids. I say, No, all right. You know, that's the trade off. You know, if you want to ensure that your abs would be in perfect shape the rest of your life, you might have thought twice about having kids.

Mike 30:56

I think you shouldn't have kids ok...

Adam 30:57

what are your goals? You know, I mean, what are your priorities? Like kid kids? Or yeah, so you know, I get it, I get it. It's frustrating. But that's, you know, these are the choices we make. But certainly doing lower ab exercise is not going to solve the problem. We don't want to sell those kinds of pipe dreams. All right, what else we got going?

Mike 31:16

Okay, so our final myth of the day is the more you sweat, the more you burn, Adam.

Adam 31:22

Yeah. I don't like the way that worded. I mean, I guess that we talked about, like cardio and exercise, burning calories. And that's not really the way to go. But a lot of people associate sweating, the fact that you're sweating, that the more you sweat, the more you're exercising, and that's something I want to address because we recommend people work out very cool environment when they work out so they don't overheat. And a lot of times people say why is it so cold in your gym don't doesn't have to be warm. So you muscle have to warm up. And first of all, I always say, well, your muscles are always going to be 90.7 degrees anyway. But no matter what temperature outside, you know what they mean, I keep it cool in here. So you don't overheat because when you overheat, your production is diminished. So we want you to maximize your production, you maximize your output for the greatest stimulus of the muscle. So we like to keep it cool. But besides that, we don't want you to overheat because overheating can be dangerous. You know, let's say they'll come back four weeks later, and and now they're really starting to get into the workout. And they start to break a sweat, right? They're working out because now they're learning how to really work out hard after a couple of workouts. And they say I thought you said I wasn't going to sweat. And I said, No, no, no, I didn't say that. I said, we don't want you to overheat during your workout. That's why we keep it cool in here. Just because you're sweating doesn't mean you're overheating, necessarily. So I didn't say I didn't promise you weren't gonna sweat. Everyone's different when it comes to that. Thing is a lot of people think that unless you're sweating, you're not working out hard enough. And that's just not true. People work out very intensely here and they might break a sweat on their brow here and a very, very minor sweat. Some people they profusely sweat here, no matter how cold we keep it in the room, because that's just the way they're, they're programmed. You know, some people sweat more than others. I don't sweat very much when I work out unless it's really hot in the room. So you know, everyone's different that way, but I can assure you that just because you're not sweating, doesn't mean you're not working out and let me tell you something else just because you are and just because you are sweating. And just because you are sweating. Exactly. Mike doesn't mean you are working out. Alright, so they're not related per se.

Mike 33:23

I guess you I mean you do burn more. The more you sweat, the more you burn, if kept burning calories is what you're trying to do. I think you are burning more calories by a room.

Adam 33:33

I'm not sure about that, to be honest.

Mike 33:35

I'm not sure buy that either

Adam 33:37

Yeah, so let's strike that from the record.

Mike 33:38

Strike that from the record. But keep it on the podcast.

Adam 33:42

Yeah, but but but don't over mean that they have they have certain exercise programs that actually encourage a lot of sweating and keep the environment very hot. I just think that's actually dangerous and absolutely not necessary. So I'm not going to name names and the brands that do that. But we all know we've all heard of the hot workouts that encourage sweating and encourage warming up the muscles and I just think it's a people you know, we can adapt you know, human beings have the ability to adapt anything including working out in very uncomfortable temperatures, but doesn't actually mean it's good for you doesn't mean it's healthy for you. And so therefore, in terms of production and physiologically, making yourself stronger and healthier. Working out in a hot environment is not helpful. That's different from however I mean, I might as well bring this up because it's popping into my brain. You know, if you take a job that's going to be outside a lot and you're not used to being outside a lot in the heat and because you take and you go from a desk job and next thing you know you become a roofer. I don't know how many people go from desk jobs to roofing. But if you did go from a desk job to become a roofer and you're not used to working in in heat all day long. It behooves you to maybe start doing things in the heat for a while and build yourself up to that tolerance of heat. Again, doesn't mean you're healthier because you can handle the heat, it just means you've adapted to working in heat doesn't necessarily mean it's healthier. All right, I'll leave it at that. Alright, so,

Mike 35:08

that's an example of succinctness.

Adam 35:11

No, maybe not, not my best work. Anyway, I hope you enjoyed this everybody. Those are there are many more myths, but um, you know, those are some big ones. And I hope it cleared some things up for you if you need some of these things.

Mike 35:27

I think all of them are are still discussions. I think if you have questions, definitely email us or call us or come in and see us

Adam 35:36

and if you think you're full of shit, tell us that too.

Mike 35:38

We'd love to hear that.

Tim Edwards 35:42

Thanks for listening to the inform fitness podcast with New York Times bestselling author, Adam Zickerman. Adams book is titled power of 10 the once a week slow motion fitness revolution. And it's just a click away and available at Amazon. For about 15 bucks, you'll find exercises that you can do in your own home along with some great nutritional tips that will help you build muscle and burn the fat and some additional exercise myths will be debunked. With an exercise protocol that is backed by science. We will have a link in the show notes to Adam's book and we also invite you to try this workout for yourself. There are several inform fitness locations across the US to find a location nearest you and then to cash in on a FREE 20 minute once a week workout. Click the link in the show notes to informfitness.com. Once you're there, you'll click the Try it free button on the homepage. Fill out the form, pick your location and enjoy a slow motion high intensity full body workout in just 20 minutes, you'll see results in your body composition and most importantly, your strength in about six weeks or less. You know we have interviewed several authors over the past 54 episodes here on the inform fitness podcast and many of those authors have their audio books available through audible. We would like to offer you Inform Nation a free audiobook download just for listening to this podcast. Simply click the link in the show notes to audible trial.com forward slash inbound and sign up for a free 30 day membership trial from Audible. Then you can download any book you want for free. If you like podcasts, you're gonna love audio books, give it a shot and try it for free risk free for 30 days. Audible trial.com forward slash inbound. We hope you enjoyed this episode and invite you to join us again next time for the inform fitness podcast for Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers with inform fitness. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting Network.

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In our latest Podcast, Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers welcome Laura Crump Anderson, InForm’s Equestrian Fitness Specialist, to discuss the importance of being your strongest and fittest for your athletic sport. Whatever your sport may be, all athletes need to train smart if they want to stay in the game!
Specific to this Podcast, however, Laura’s shameless obsession is clear – the Equestrian Athlete. Laura unwaveringly asserts that your horse is not the only athlete and excellence takes two to Tango. If you are an Equestrian, your horse depends on you being in your best physical shape, period. Regretfully, many overlook this critical fact. If you consider yourself, and not just the horse, to be the competitive athletes you both truly are, the hard message is this: Equestrians need to build muscle to their optimal capacity! Most obviously, muscle protects the Rider’s body from the beating the sport takes on themselves, but equally because a stronger Rider serves the HORSE exponentially! Ironically, the Equestrian will fully appreciate the distinction – if not for yourself, strive to be your strongest if only for the horses you LOVE! Equestrians are so admirably dedicated to their horses, but often at the expense of themselves in a multitude of ways. Every Rider, from Coast to Coast, possesses a sincere love for their horses. In Virginia – give Laura 20 twenty minutes just once a week and she will give you AND your horse the essential competitive edge you seek, not to mention a better life with less injury.
No one serves the (human) athlete better than we do at InForm Fitness. Obsessions aside, whatever your athletic sport may be, InForm Fitness can custom design a program for anyone looking to take their athletic edge to the next level, whether that be from your sedentary desk job to being in the best shape of your life, OR for the elite athlete inside you screaming to get out!

Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution: http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen For a FREE 20-Minute strength training full-body workout and to find an Inform Fitness location nearest you, please visit: http://bit.ly/Podcast_FreeWorkout
Adam Zickerman – Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution: http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

53 Get Stronger for Your Sport in Record Time: No More Horsing Around! Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

equestrian, laura, horse, rider, inform, fitness, exercise, sport, riding, people, muscle, athletes, balance, tack, podcast, absolutely, eat, client, recreational activity, long

SPEAKERS

Tim Edwards, Mike, Laura Crump Anderson, Adam, Nicole

Tim Edwards 00:00

The inform fitness podcast is brought to you by Audible. Get a Free Audiobook download and a 30 day free trial of Audible membership at audible trial.com forward slash inbound

Laura Crump Anderson 00:18

so it's really important to think about your exercise program as something you do to build muscle exercise is not recreational activity. recreational activity is things that you do in order to improve performance, not exercise. So exercising is a specific amount of time dedicated to the purpose of building muscle and that is my definition slash inform fitness definition of what exercise actually is.

Tim Edwards 00:54

Inform nation thanks for joining us once again for another episode of the inform fitness podcast with New York Times bestselling author, Adam Zickerman. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting network. And this is episode number 53 titled, get stronger for your sport in record time. No more horsing around. In this week's podcast episode, Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers from the New York City inform fitness location. Welcome their Virginia equestrian fitness specialist Laura Crump Anderson to discuss the importance of being strong and fit for your sport, generally, and in this case, the equestrian athlete, our guest today, Laura Crump Anderson joined the inform fitness Virginia team after realizing that the Inform protocol for time efficient and safe strength training is the ideal program for the riders extremely demanding schedule and fiscal requirements. Laura specializes in getting her equestrian clientele fitter for their horses without losing any time in the saddle. With only 20 minutes once a week of hard work. And as you know, by listening this podcast will last 53 episodes, real results. So whether you are an equestrian athlete yourself or you participate in another sport, learn how high intensity slow motion strength training provides the keys to bring your athletic performance to a new level of excellence.

Adam 02:16

Hello, everybody. Welcome to the show. This is we have a big, big lineup here with us today. We have of course my partner Mike, my business partner and licensee out in Virginia. Nicole Gustafson and of course, we have our guest, Laura Crump Anderson. Let me give you a little background on Laura she she first of all, she works for inform fitness. She's one of our trainers out in Virginia. Laura holds a bachelor's degree in kinesiology and she has a concentration in exercise science. After she graduated Laura became a certified personal trainer by the American College of Sports Medicine and continued her certification through the inform fitness protocol. What makes her really special besides all that already, is the fact that she is a horseback riding equestrian coach. I hope I said that right, Laura, from a very young age, Laura understood the importance of exercise also to improve performance in the saddle. So with her comprehensive understanding of all the specialized needs for equestrian riders, she fell in love with this high intensity workout, which he thought really fit in really well with her passion. And her first love. Having said that, I think what I'm going to do now is hand over the rest of the introduction to Nicole her colleague, and they work very closely together. Equestrian riding is a very specialized sport and just you don't have to be into equestrian riding or even know what equestrian riding is to benefit from listening to this, this episode, what I'd like to have come out of this is regardless of your passion, regardless of your sport, exercise. And the type of exercise is very important for that pursuit. We talk about these types of things a lot, but we're gonna kind of talk about it in context of an actual sport. So no more theory more less academic and in other words, and more in tune with reality. Alright, so So Nicole, hi.

Mike 04:08

You will have to know what horses are though

Adam 04:10

Yes, So Nicole, please say hello, and continue talking about Laura.

Nicole 04:17

Well, hello, everybody. The only thing I knew about horses, when I met Laura for the first time was that I was allergic to horses. And the entire equestrian industry intimidated me for multiple reasons. But about I would say four years ago, Laura, who was 24 at the time, walked into my office uninvited, well dressed with a resume and she sat down and all of my immediate prejudiced items were in my head. Okay. I thought at first, she's young, she is obviously well educated, and may not be in the position to add to my team right now. Now at the young age of 24, Laura, to say that she impressed me with her professionalism, and her passion would be an understatement. At 24, Laura came to me with a very specific mission, to bridge the gap between the protocol that inform fitness offers our clientele. And she has such great faith and education behind it, that she came to me with a very specific mission in mind to bridge the gap between what we do at inform fitness and the equestrian community, not only in Loudoun County, but generally nationwide. So while she was talking, I grew increasingly intimidated by her knowledge, but I couldn't help it recognize that I had a 24 year old, very presentable, very knowledgeable, very intelligent, young lady with a five year plan. Now she had a five year plan. I don't remember having a five year plan at 24.

Adam 06:32

I'm 53. And I don't have a five year plan.

Nicole 06:36

She came to me with a very, very specific passion, and a wholehearted belief that she was bringing the gift of the inform fitness protocol to an industry that she had already committed herself to career wise. And she sold me in a half an hour conversation, I decided this young lady was going to have a glorious career. And I had to have it. I wanted to do everything I could to have her that that glorious career to be with me.

Adam 07:15

And the pinnacle of his career is being on this podcast. So congratulations, Laura, and welcome to the show.

Laura Crump Anderson 07:21

I've reached my height. Thank you guys for having me. I'm really excited to be on today. And I really, really am looking forward to discussing the ideas of applying the inform fitness workout to sports specific exercise.

Adam 07:40

Alright, so let's get started. Let's let's first for those that don't know anything about equestrian riding. Maybe you can give a very brief description of what equestrian riding is, and maybe the demands of an equestrian rider. They're not just well dressed Silver Spoon rich people, right? I mean, they're actually great athletes.

Laura Crump Anderson 07:57

Absolutely not. So I joke a lot, actually, that there's such thing as a New York minute. But time doesn't matter nearly as much as it does in a busy equestrian facility. I mean, those people are up at 430 in the morning, you know, drinking a cup of coffee, that's probably the only moment in the day they're going to sit down and they hit the ground running. And they're going all day long

Adam 08:24

no pun intended,

Laura Crump Anderson 08:25

no pun intended. So they have extremely demanding schedules, they have extremely demanding physical activities that they have to be doing throughout the day. And then on top of that, they have horses that are these 1000 pound plus animals that they're working with and communicating with non verbally. So when I graduated, I got my degree in exercise science, not because I loved working out, I didn't enjoy working out but I realized how essential it was for me to be able to successfully perform in the tack for me to stay pain free. And for me to continue to ride my horses. I actually now am exclusively working with people I don't train horses anymore. There's one exception, which is a pony that I it's a homebred pony that that's the one person I'll make an excuse for to teach lessons on but I love working with people outside of the tack

Adam 09:21

tell us how physically demanding being an equestrian rider is I don't know, there's different types of equestrian riding right, there's jumping there's dressage. And

Laura Crump Anderson 09:28

yes, so there's the three main types in English is, you know, there's you've got hunter jumpers, you've got dressage, and you've got eventing. You've also got bolting Western, you've got trail riding, there's many different gamuts but generally, your riders have to be very strong in their upper back, they have to have extremely strong cores, they have to be stable through their seat. And then on top of that, you know, the day to day activity of standing in a ring for hours teaching lessons, the people who are the weekend warriors who only ride their horse once a week, they have to be fit enough to compete that horse on the weekends or go ride that horse on the weekends and not get in its way. So it runs the gamut. I mean, you've got quite a diverse population in the equestrian community, which people think is such a niche market. But the demands are strong core, strong upper back engagement through your lower body, there's people will go and do a trail ride on the beach in Mexico, and they will feel sore for days afterwards. But learning to post the trot and things like that is extremely demanding on the lower body.

Adam 10:41

If you're an equestrian rider, and you're doing all this stuff. Why the hell do you need to exercise I mean, like, it sounds like that's already exercise.

Laura Crump Anderson 10:47

So exercising is different, because exercising should be purposeful. And that purpose should be to build muscle, we want to put muscle on your body. Because you know, when you're riding, you're really got a very strong upper back, but your chest on the other hand, the pectoral muscles, they are not nearly as engaged. So it's about developing the balance throughout the body so that you are a well rounded athlete and not just strong on the areas that you're regularly working. You know, riders have really strong inner thighs, their abductors, they can squeeze all day long with their inner thighs, their glute medius and minimus, their hip abductors get a lot weaker. And you can see a correlation between weakness in your hip abductors and your ability to control your seat in the sitting trot. So it's really important to think about your exercise program as something you do to build muscle exercise is not recreational activity. recreational activity is things that you do in order to improve performance, not exercise. So exercising is a specific amount of time dedicated to the purpose of building muscle. And that is my definition slash the inform fitness definition of what exercise actually is

Adam 12:12

despite the fact that you're working hard on a horse, and you have to use a lot of muscles and requires you to be in great shape. Really, when you're riding a horse, you're really developing a skill. And it's really not necessarily good exercise. And as a result, even equestrian riders who work so hard to be an equestrian rider, they still have to exercise because the riding is not going to complete their exercise protocol, if you will, their exercise needs.

Laura Crump Anderson 12:39

Absolutely

Adam 12:40

So I remember when we were talking the other day about this. We talked about, for example, the lower back, right, because you insist that equestrian riders use a lower back machine. Now of course, just to remind our listeners we have, our gyms are equipped with a very special low back machine that that fixes the hips in place and really isolates a lumbar spine. It's very unique, and in many cases necessary to truly strengthen the spine. Otherwise, you end up doing a lot of hip extension and not really attacking the lumbar muscles. So talk to me a little about that, and the importance of why an equestrian rider needs to do the low back machine. And let me just add before Laura goes into it, even though we're specifically talking about equestrian riders needing a low back machine, you can fill in the blank with any sport you want. And this would work. So she's talking about equestrian riders specifically. But God I mean, if you're a tennis player, you need to do the low back machine if you're a soccer player. Why do you insist that the equestrian rider do the lower back machine,

Laura Crump Anderson 13:41

the low back machine is absolutely one of my favorite exercises that we have in the studio because it does just that it works and targets your low back directly. And I know so many riders who struggle with low back pain, that this is one of the first things that has made a difference for them. They're able to get through the day without taking an NSAID pain reliever. They're able to strengthen their core in a natural way that's not medicine. And it really does help you know, the demands of the equestrian is you're constantly going through a concussion, concussive movement on the horse's back, you're matching the motion of the horse's back with the strength of your core. So your core has to be very strong and very stable, but it's still going to take a regular repetitive motion. Beating, it is more like working than it is like an enjoyable experience. You're really working your core every time you sit on a horse and this low back machine, you know, the lumbar spine, the erector spinae these are such essential muscles to keep strong so that they can stand up longer. They can, you know, walk from place to place without feeling that achy sensation, like I said with the leg press. You know sometimes they'll come in and there'll be like, oh my god Back is really bothering me. And maybe I'll, you know, I'll say, Well, we really want you to get on this machine, you got to encourage someone to work a muscle sometimes when it's feeling achy, but you know, six weeks into a program, they realize, oh, wow, this is my favorite machine. And it does make such a difference on like day to day pain.

Nicole 15:18

When Laura and I first discussed her joining the team on inform, I immediately saw her as you know, a ground floor foundational partner of our operation in Virginia. And when she said to me, what the equestrian needs to hear is that they need to exercise not for themselves, but for their horses. I said, Laura, that makes no sense to me whatsoever. And she said, but it does to the equestrian, Laura made it very, very clear to me that she does not want to be just a strength training instructor her mission from day one was very clear, I want to be a an equestrian fitness specialist, because I have found the product at inform fitness that the entire equestrian community needs. And she speaks their language. And it's working. We actually have some very key community influencers, who are backing Laura in her endeavor because they believe in what she's trying to do. And they've seen the evidence firsthand, not to mention that we have a young equestrian rider that inform fitness is sponsoring, who is achieving greater accolades because of her training with Laura. So, you know, Laura's reputation as an equestrian fitness specialist is not only being recognized by the equestrian clientele that she has now, but it's also being recognized by equestrian trainers, the many farms that surround Loudoun County and Fairfax County, and not to mention many equestrian veterinarians are very interested in what she is doing. Because the stronger the rider, the stronger the horse, and the less injury on the horse. So when Laura says to an equestrian, well don't do it for you Do it for your horse that speaks their language. Not necessarily mine. But you can translate that to any, you know, athletic, passion, athletic sport, you know, you don't just do it to enhance your physical stamina, or your cardiovascular health, you do it for your balance, you do it for the for the protection from injury, and you do it for your family. I mean, you do it for you knew you do it for everything. And it's not just about the strength of your body and the performance of your horse or the outcome of whatever athletic endeavor you're pursuing. It directly boils down to quality of life too. life, life is not a joy ride, but it's worth it. And it's these passions that make it worth it. And when you can find a facility like inform fitness, that can both, you know, bring you the skill set the expertise of an instructor, and not only the confidence, I mean, we empower our clients to push themselves beyond what they thought they were capable. And we do that with the confidence that we have built through the rapport with that client. And that can translate to the equestrian field or whatever sport somebody is trying to get an edge on. You know, as Adam says countless times, we cannot create change without pushing our energy systems. And you know, if we want to create change in our bodies, so we can get out there and live the lives that we want and enjoy the sports and recreational activities that we want. Then again, this boils down to quality of life, protecting yourself from injury, enjoying the recreation to its fullest, enjoying your life to the fullest and inform fitness is what gives you the tool to do that not to mention the safety and the time efficiency in the future. activeness of it, which really, you know, anybody who is an avid equestrian or an avid, you know, sports enthusiast in any way or a, you know, a professional executive. Um, this gives them the time efficiency, the stamina, and not to mention the physical and mental empowerment, to take whatever they're trying to do to the next level. Now, I can only say this for the equestrian community. My little knowledge of the equestrian community is that they are very change averse.

Adam 20:42

They dress funny.

Laura Crump Anderson 20:44

Stop saying that, no.

Nicole 20:48

They're very change averse. And and they are, I mean, cynics walk through our door all the time. Because what we are offering often seems, more often than not seems too good to be true. Okay. So what I am so proud of is that Laura has not only taken your average off the street cynic, but she has taken a successful equestrian, who is very change averse to open their mind, walk in our doors, take the leap of faith, and then burn the bridge behind them, they are completely sold. And you know, Laura and I have discussed the challenge ahead of her from bringing such a change averse community, to open their minds and try something that completely goes against the grain of what they have been practicing in the past. But so far, she has been successful in that. And I welcome that, and every effort it takes, because once we get that infamously change averse community in the doors of inform, it's going to be just as hard for them to leave.

Adam 22:14

But it's also gonna what. I like what you're saying. Because you know, I've always been, people have always said, you know, you should go after the professional teams and the athletic teams and try to teach them about inform fitness. And I actually have said, they're so steeped in tradition, and the way they do things, that that it, it's not worth our marketing time and effort, right? I rather go after people that automatically appreciate this for what it's worth. So I've always been little resistance to spend my time going after those communities, equestrian being one of them. So this this could be the the wedge in a way and the entree into convincing athletes that you don't have to work out every single day and do the crazy, you know, high force activities and overtraining activities to to be a great athlete to be in great shape.

Laura Crump Anderson 23:02

That is a really good note, Adam, I want to just add on a couple things. One is rest and recovery that is so hard to find the time for, especially when you're in an industry where you're expected to be going all the time, but you have to rest and recover. You wouldn't. You know, go and go and go that's how horses gets injured. That's how people get injured is continuing and continuing without giving themselves the time to rest and recover. And it you know, being having someone tell you you know what, the best thing you can do this afternoon is to take this afternoon off, I think is a much appreciated idea. It's hard to find the time to rest and recover as a athlete, but it's absolutely essential for continued performance. And we have to give a huge shout out to Haley Carspecken who is the inform fitness sponsored rider she is a working student she works hours of hard physical labor in the barn on a regular basis for a top level professional. And then she goes out, she rides her horse, she rides training horses, and then on top of that she has to treat herself like the athlete that she is and find the time to rest and recover. She works really hard in the studio. But that's only one piece giving yourself the rest and recovery piece is absolutely essential or else people end up injured and Haley's success has has led to her being very successful in the tack she's gotten new scores in dressage. I mean there's so much that goes into it. We can't say that inform fitness is the reason Haley is an amazing rider. Haley's always been an amazing rider. This is a piece that we are adding to her program that is making a difference,

Nicole 24:53

you know, on the flip side of Laura's young equestrian rider which inform is sponsoring We have a client who is in his 70s was kicked in the back of his, you know, right in the back of his spine by his horse, you know, we can all empathize how hard it was for him to get back on that horse. Now having trained with Laura for, I think a period of about nine months now, I ran into him on the street the other day. And he was so excited to share with me that he got back on the same horse that kicked him on the back. And when he grabbed onto that horse with his abductors and stood up straight and strengthened out his, you know, really strengthened his core and showed that horse that he was back in control, that horse actually looked back, looked him right in the eye and said, Who the heck are you. And now that gentleman that client of Laura's in his 70s, is enjoying his passion once again, and has every confidence that even with the horse that kicked him in the back of the spine, and put him out of the game, now knows who's boss,

Adam 26:24

he probably doesn't walk behind the horse anymore

Mike 26:26

they just say no, we have, we have a client also, who's an architect full time. And he does, he does just dressage, over the weekend, he's a weekend warrior in his late 60s looks phenomenal. And he he actually was here for years, and then took a little hiatus like, you know, the prodigal client came back. And he said, he said night and day also has, has his strength, his ability to control his horse is and he depends on his workout here. And he doesn't do any other. No cardio, no conventional, other exercise, just just as 20 minute workout here. So

Laura Crump Anderson 27:01

and we're not trying to undermine what they're doing on the horse, what we're saying is that they are absolutely athletes already we are adding a piece of the puzzle so that they can be as successful as possible.

Mike 27:13

Is there an expectation, Laura, that you will, over time be beating down your back, no matter what, like the way runners oftentimes are beating down their knees, or their backs or their ankles?

Laura Crump Anderson 27:26

Absolutely, I mean, this is something that you're going to strengthen your core and your low back to stave off the back injuries, you're going to do this so that you're being able to go longer without needing back surgery, without, you know, feeling that chronic pain, you know, our bodies are our bodies. And I think, you know, one of the lovely things about this sport is it is so accessible for anyone because there are so many different horses and you finding your strengths. It takes time, but really early on, like the kids who aren't riding and want to do it, they kind of do it for a little bit, but then they realize this isn't what's right for them. So I don't know if there's necessary like I wouldn't say someone needs to be really tall to be a rider or someone I know, some of the best riders I know, are six foot six. And some of the best riders I know are five foot two. And it really, you know, our bodies do take a beating in the tack, but they absolutely need to be strong so they can continue to ride for as long as they want. And I know many riders like you were saying with your knees for runners, they feel like they need to get fitter for their horses, and they go out and they go running. And I'm like you're already doing an incredibly amount of stress every time you sit in the tack on your body. Don't add to that do something that is not high impact so that you can be fit for your horse. And that's what inform fitness offers. It offers a safe way to really engage your body in the muscle groups that you use while riding and the muscle groups that are also under developed. It's a full body workout. That gives you a really good amount of increased energy is usually the first thing that people say it's like I'm exercising I thought I would be tired but they notice I feel like I can go for longer rides I feel like that, you know I'm not drilling as much because it's clicking sooner in my lessons. I'm getting a you know, lifting up that hay bale to move it from one side of the barn to the other was less demanding on my body than it was three months ago. Like I feel like I have more energy and then it leads to the other aspects that really come with time. You know, really true hypertrophy.

Mike 29:58

There's no question like I think with This sport in any other sport, the more you strengthen your muscles and you prepare your joints for any activity, you're going to be able to a usually do it better, more efficiently and b, I think what you're talking about is withstand trauma. And that got my point before a little bit was like, you know, say like you're running not to exercise, but you run because you run a lot of people do. And then they get to a point where their knees have just been beaten down, but they want to do something that is that resembles that. So I sometimes advise them, Oh, why don't you try out cycling or something like that make you feel the same way? You know, and it will substitute that recreational activity? That is something that's fun for them. And I guess my question is, is there ever a time where you have to say, you know, something, you know, we this is beating you down on the horse that maybe we need to do something else.

Laura Crump Anderson 30:46

I honestly, my story is that I ended up with a serious overtraining injury without ever setting foot in a gym. The reason I got into exercise is because I suffered from so much chronic back pain. And I was 16. It's not like I was, you know, 55 years old. It's

Adam 31:07

hey

Laura Crump Anderson 31:10

nothing wrong with being 55.

Adam 31:12

Is that old or something?

Laura Crump Anderson 31:13

No, well, I mean, actually, I went to a clinic yesterday, and this woman is 64 years old and jumping at a higher level than I've ever competed.

Adam 31:23

64, That's different. That's old.

Mike 31:26

I remember, we had a 75 year old on last week, you know,

Laura Crump Anderson 31:29

that's amazing. No, but like, I do think that, you know, the oldest Olympic athletes tend to be the equestrians, we, our horses are absolutely athletes, the riders are athletes too. But you know, it takes time to become at skill and develop this to a level, it's not easy, and you're not going to do it, unless you're dedicated. But at the same time, I know the first thing that if I told a rider they needed to stop riding, I would be the first thing they dropped, it would not be the horses like that is never crossed my mind, I tell them, you know this, if this is what you want to do. And, you know, 55 is the perfect target market for me, I got injured very young, most people are able to sustain the beatings that they take young I wasn't, it led me down my path. But at the same time, you know, the riders who are just starting to get to the point where they're not regenerating, their muscles are starting to atrophy, at a greater pace. Those are the riders that absolutely need to be in the studio strength training.

Adam 32:35

So let me change gears a little bit. Balance. Because you know, when I when I think of a equestrian riding, I think of balance, right, they have to have incredible balance in sense of space where they are on the horse and jumping. I mean, I know I've ridden horses before. And boy, that's that's hard. It's hard to stay on a horse.

Mike 32:55

Skill development

Adam 32:55

I mean, I am not I am not good at it anyway, is there? Is there a particular type of balance training that you think needs to be done? Or is it just about riding the horse?

Laura Crump Anderson 33:05

Okay, so I do not think that standing on a ball or an exercise ball, or any sort of balance movement translates to fitness in the tack recently, I've been really busy and I've gotten into yoga, and I have to stand on one foot in yoga class, I could never stand on one foot in my whole entire life, but put me on four legs, I have a lot better balance, the best way to get better at riding and develop more balance is by riding your horse, this skill does not transfer from one event to the other. That being said, putting muscle on your body, the proprioceptive is the thing in your muscle that hold your balance and tell you where you are in relation to the ground or in your muscles. So that's another reason I say, well, it's not just to increase your ability to be balanced, it's also to increase you know, your defense against an actual fall. You want to be as strong as possible, you don't get stronger and more balanced. By standing on a ball, you get stronger by exercising outside of the tack and you get more balanced by spending the hours in the tack, improving your riding.

Adam 34:21

Amen sisters, here's here's a real live example of that. Here's a real equestrian rider that's actually saying that. So it's great to hear firsthand experience because we always talk about, you know, the fallacy of balanced training and how it doesn't transfer. And it's nice to hear you that you've experienced that as well

Laura Crump Anderson 34:37

and I can now stand on one foot but it doesn't transfer to riding the horse.

Adam 34:42

So another thing Laura want to talk about, and of course, you can't talk about exercise and complete wellness without nutrition, bringing that into it. And I just kind of find it ironic based on our conversation we had the other day that you know Horses are treated like princes, right, and princesses. I mean, they have the life. You know

Laura Crump Anderson 35:08

they do a lot for us,

Adam 35:09

they do a lot for us, but they have a life they are taken care of, and not not a single gram of food goes into their body that hasn't been accounted for and parsed out. So again, what's the take on equestrian nutrition are equestrians do they take care of themselves? I remember talking to a dancer, and a professional dancer who's who's in the dancing industry for a long, long time classical dancing. And she was telling me that dancers like they smoke packs a day of cigarettes, I couldn't believe that such a demanding type of job would they'd actually be smoking. So are there how is a lifestyle of an equestrian rider? And how do they eat and if you can generalize like that.

Laura Crump Anderson 35:51

So I definitely think this is an important topic to cover. Because you're what you put in your body becomes what you are, and you really do need to eat healthy. That being said, with demanding schedules, riders tend to put themselves on the back burners, they take care of their horses, they feed their horses, right, and then they go home and eat a frozen pizza or, you know, figure out what else it is. That is the easiest thing Top Ramen to eat. And, you know, a lot of people can undermine their athletic performance by not feeding themselves, like the athletes that they are eat real food.

Adam 36:31

So they're just like everybody else, I guess.

Laura Crump Anderson 36:33

Absolutely. I mean, sports, nutrition is nutrition with the word sport added.

Adam 36:37

But is there a weight requirement? I mean, do they have to watch their weight? I mean, like what you talked about, doesn't matter how tall you are, or how small you are. But it probably does matter if you're an equestrian rider, how heavy you are.

Laura Crump Anderson 36:47

I mean, there's guidelines to be advised and followed. But I mean, jockeys have to be a certain weight or under a certain weight riding, they used to actually to try and even out the field, make the lighter riders carry heavier weights to balance it out. But now they've kind of dropped that because it really they don't put weights in the saddle anymore? They no longer have weighted saddles. They've thought that was a thing. Like in the 80s

Mike 37:13

the old days. I thought that was still going on.

Laura Crump Anderson 37:20

Fascinating. No, it's so and I mean, the sport has been examined by you know, studies have been done to prove these things. And it's, it would be nice to have more studies done on the importance of athletic performance, but they're out there. There's some out there that shows, you know, improving your I mean, sports nutrition is one that you can absolutely research Google get advice on all the time. One thing is, you know, drink water when you're thirsty. Don't just drink the performance enhancing Gatorade because it tastes good. And don't feel like you need to drink all the time, because hydration doesn't have a direct correlation with heatstroke. Like you can be perfectly hydrated and still face heatstroke. I'm thinking of that right now. Just because we're in summer I got really sunburned yesterday and I saw people you know drinking a lot of sugary beverages, but Gatorade or things like that. Try and find a real food option. I would much rather have a client drink a bottle of water when they're thirsty and eat a banana. Then, you know, go for that real sugary concoction.

Adam 38:29

Very good. Alright, so there you have it. Equestrians don't have to eat any differently than the rest of us. There's no other special requirements. They're just like you said, Laura. I mean, that's what I always say, just eat real food. Perfect. Well, you know, I can't even add to that. I'm gonna let it end right there. I want to thank everybody for coming on the show. Mike. Nicole. Well said, Laura, thank you so much. That was so insightful. And you brought the point that we've been making countless times on all these episodes, you brought the point home for us once again. And I appreciate that. Thank you so much.

Tim Edwards 39:00

Thanks again to Laura Crump Anderson and Nicole Gustafson. From the inform fitness Virginia locations for joining us here on the podcast. There are several inform fitness locations across the US to find a location nearest you and to cash in on your free 20 minute once a week workout that is backed by science. Click the link in the show notes to informfitness.com Once you're there, you'll hit the try us free button on the homepage. Fill out the form. Pick your location and enjoy a slow motion high intensity full body workout in just 20 minutes for free. If you don't live near an inform fitness location, you could always pick up Adams book power of 10 the once a week slow motion fitness revolution. It is just a click away and available at Amazon. For less than 15 bucks. You'll find exercises that you can do in your own home, starting with some great nutritional tips to help you build that muscle and burn the fat. We'll have a link in the show notes to Adams book as well. You know we have interviewed several other authors over the past 53 episodes of this podcast. Many of those authors have their own audio books available through audible. We'd like to offer you inform nation a free Audiobook download just for listening to this podcast. Simply click the link in the show notes to audible trial.com forward slash inbound That's audible trial.com forward slash inbound. Sign up for a free 30 day membership trial to Audible. Then Download any book they have in their library for free. If you like podcasts, and you're gonna love audiobooks, give it a shot. It's risk free for 30 days Audible trial.com forward slash inbound. Now we hope you learned a lot this episode and that you'll join us again next time for the inform fitness podcast for Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers of inform fitness. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting Network.

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Our guest today is a longtime client of the Manhattan InForm Fitness location and who’s name is Michael Derchin. Michael is a cancer survivor who shares his story of profound loss, perseverance, and a lesson that proves you are never too old to make some positive changes and progress in your life.

Bon Jovi - One Wild Night (featuring our guest, Michael Derchin on backing vocals!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaNi8j36Gio 2:30 mark in the song you can hear Mike’s primal scream ion the song

Adam Zickerman - Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen
For a FREE 20-Minute strength training full-body workout and to find an Inform Fitness location nearest you, please visit http://bit.ly/Podcast_FreeWorkout

52 Beating Cancer One Workout At-A-Time Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

mike, podcast, pounds, gave, doctor, cancer, fitness, week, years, life, eating, prostate, testosterone, inform, exercise, wife, episode, bon jovi, adam, day

SPEAKERS

Mike Durkin, Tim Edwards, Mike, Adam

Tim Edwards 00:00

The inform fitness podcast is brought to you by Audible. Get a Free Audiobook download and a 30 day free trial of Audible membership at audible trial.com forward slash inbound

Mike Durkin 00:19

life is just a bowl of cherries. Don't take it serious. Life's too mysterious. You work you save you worry so, but you can take your dough when you go go go. Keep repeating it's the berries, the strongest Oak must fall. The best things in life for you I just loaned so how can you lose what you never owned. So life is just a bowl of cherries. So live and laugh at it. Live and laugh at it, live and laugh at it home.

Tim Edwards 01:12

inform nation welcome in Tim Edwards here at the inbound podcasting network. And this is episode number 52 of the inform fitness podcast with New York Times bestselling author, Adam Zickerman. The song that you heard at the top of the episode was performed by an inform fitness client who has one heck of a story to share with you today. You are about to hear a stirring testimonial regarding the health benefits that can come as a result of the slow motion high intensity strength training protocol administered by the inform fitness program. And in some cases, maybe even life saving. Our guest today is a longtime client of the Manhattan inform fitness location, whose name is Michael Durkin, in this episode, you will receive some weight loss tips. But you're also going to hear stories of profound loss and perseverance, and most importantly, a lesson that you are never too old to make some positive changes in your life.

Mike 02:09

That was an incredible song to start off the episode. I'm so excited about this podcast, and for our guests that were that we're going to be interviewing today, because it's a testimonial of the health benefits that come with the inform fitness program. I think in this podcast, we're gonna re ask the question what is necessary if your goal is weight loss, it's going to dispel some of the exercise myths that we've talked about before on this podcast. And I think it's going to address the understated effect of hormones on muscle growth and fat loss. And our guest today has been a client with us since 2011. And in the last seven years, he's had some unbelievable results to his health and fitness. His name is Mike Durkin, you just heard him sing just now a second ago life is a bowl of cherries, and I'm just gonna I just recalled Mike, years ago, as a fact he sang backup with Bon Jovi actually years ago on which album was that?

Mike Durkin 03:09

The crush album.

Mike 03:13

We said it sounds like we're kidding. But we're not. And what song was it again?

Mike Durkin 03:17

One wild night

Mike 03:20

One Wild night, so we'll see if we can get a clip of that song. It's he's actually credited on the on the it was a CD at the time, right?

Adam 03:28

Can we get Bon Jovi to approve us to see a clip

Mike Durkin 03:31

in addition to the backup, I also in the middle of that song, there's a primal scream. And that's me.

Adam 03:39

No way. Can you repeat that scream now?

Mike Durkin 03:43

I only do that on some of the machines that you put me on.

Adam 03:46

I only do that for big cash, Adam. I don't do that for free.

Mike 03:50

So Mike was referred by his good friend Hence Orme which if you're a listener of the podcast, he was the subject of the return of the prodigal client, which was

Adam 04:01

one of our most popular podcasts.

Mike 04:03

I personally love seeing Mike every week. He's consistent with his workouts. He works very, very hard. He's extremely positive and funny. And I've learned a lot from him over the years. And he's a financial analyst on Wall Street, loves his job has two grown kids. And he's currently 75 years old. He will be 76 in a couple of months, right?

Mike Durkin 04:24

Yeah, August

Adam 04:25

and August. What?

Mike Durkin 04:26

August 17.

Adam 04:28

Are you Leo?

Mike Durkin 04:29

Yeah

Adam 04:30

I'm August 4. August is a great month to have a birthday.

Mike 04:33

All right. Well, it's the opposite side of the calendar for me so but you enjoy it and I'll enjoy my

Adam 04:38

thank you very much.

Mike 04:38

my half birthday at the same time. So anyway, in order to explain Mike's results, we have to go back to the beginning, which is 2011. In preparing for this podcast and in organizing my thoughts. I thought that Mike's story can be divided into three little chapters and the first one starts in 2011 When you walked in our door, and Mike, what was going on in your life at that time?

Mike Durkin 05:07

Okay, well, this chapter of my life actually started in late 2010. And what happened in late 2010. In November, specifically, my, my wife, Terry, who I had been my soulmate for 40 years was in intensive care, at Sloan Kettering hospital, she had been diagnosed with an aggressive form of thyroid cancer, and she had just been given a, you know, a few weeks or months to live at that point in time. And I was in, in the room with her. And she was a very caring person. And she looked at me and said, I want you to go, I don't like how you look, you don't look, well, I want you to go to the doctor immediately. And I said, go to the doctor, immediately. I'm here, you're here in intensive care, I've got to take care of you. And she says, I'm surrounded by all these doctors and nurses, and I'm hooked up to all these things. So you there's nothing you can do for me here. I really think I just don't you know, I've known you for 40 years, I just don't like the way you look, I want you to do this for me. So I go to the doctor, and she kind of hooks me up to all these machines and electrocardiograms that only other stuff that you do for a checkup. And, and at the end, we're, I'm in her office, and she said, Well, I've got to admit, admit you to the hospital. I said, admit me to the hospital. What are you talking about? Well, I've never seen numbers like this, you're about to have either a stroke or a heart attack any second. I mean, I can't, you know, I can't let you out of here. And so I say, well, there's no way, you know, I'm going to, you know, a hospital with my wife dying. And she said, Well, will you at least do do me a favor. And, you know, let me have send you to a cardiologist, and have them take a look at you and see what they recommend. So that same day, I went to the New York Hospital, cardiologist, and they took a look at me and did further heart exams and said, Well, look, Mike, you know, we understand why Dr.wanted to admit you. And under normal circumstances, we would but you know, because you're in serious, you know, shape here. On the other hand, we understand why you're in that shape, it's more stress related, probably than anything else. And there's nothing structurally wrong with your heart that we can see. And so, you know, we'll we'll let you out, but we, you know, on the provision that you got to come back every week, until your wife passes away, and you know, they gave me some medication, and they hooked me up to some machines that I walked around with, you know, and so make a long story short, we, my wife left a hospital in November for, you know, around Thanksgiving time, came home, and in hospice situation, she passed away on December 17, of 2010. And, you know, before she passed away, she, she said, you know, really the day before, she said, Look, I have one last wish you've been 40 years taking care of me, she had a muscle disease, by the way, for, for most of the 40 years, we were married Polymyositis. And so I was both a husband and a caregiver for 40 years, and, you know, didn't take very good care of myself physically. And she knew that and she said, Look, you know, after I am gone, we have two teenage daughters at the time, you know, you just got to, for your own sake, get yourself in shape, get yourself better for your if not for your for your own sake then for your two teenage daughters. So with that as motivation, she after she passed away in early January of 2011. You know, I went back to the doctor who then gave me a full workout and in addition to heart, and I also had diabetes, type two diabetes, which I didn't know about, I weighed 265 pounds. I was sent to a doctor who specialized in diabetes and and the doctor said, Well, give me an example of your diet Mike, and I kind of described, you know what I ate during the day and he said, Well, I know what your problem is, Mike, you're having high portions of carbohydrates. And you should be eating small portions of low carbohydrate foods. So you're doing just the opposite of what you should to be doing, and I said, Well, how do I, you know, get back on track and and he said, also, obviously, you know, you're out of shape and you got to, you know, you got to lose a lot of weight, both through exercise and, and through changing your eating and, and so he gave me the name of a nutritionist to help me out on the nutrition side and he said, see if you can find yourself, you know, a place to go to start getting yourself in shape. And that's where I mentioned it to Hence, who was a good friend of mine at the time. And he had recommended inform fitness at that point. And that's how I came to you guys in 2011.

Mike 10:42

Mike and I were, we were just talking about before the podcast, and I said, Hey, Mike do you remember the oatmeal conversation we had? And he said, I think so. And then. And he said, I think it was cereal and berries I think I might be confused about between cereal and berries. But the thing is, you know, Michael started working out with us. And we quickly warmed up to each other. And he quickly connected to doing the strength training program. He he you know, he works very, very hard. And then I think he hit a little plateau. And I think you weren't you were given guidance from the nutritionist. And I think you got I think he dropped maybe 10 or 15 pounds or something.

Mike Durkin 11:21

I went from 265. down to about 235.

Mike 11:25

Oh was it that much at the time.

Mike Durkin 11:26

Yeah, I lost about 30 pounds.

Mike 11:28

But there was a plateau.

Mike Durkin 11:29

Yeah, I hit a plateau. And, and I was sort of the same weight for over a month. And I'm kind of frustrated, obviously. Because I thought I was continuing to do everything. Right. And, and Mike said, Well, what do you have for breakfast, and I kind of described that I have, oh, I have a really healthy, big cereal with fruit and all kinds of great stuff. And, and he said to me, Well, I think I know how you can, you know, lose five pounds in a week. And I said five pounds in a week. How? And he said, Well, instead of having that, that cereal, just have one hard boiled egg for breakfast, everything else the same whatever you're having for lunch or dinner, eat the same exact food, but just change one thing just have just change for one week, and you're going to lose five pounds. I thought that was a joke no way and so

Adam 12:25

it's like Mickey Mantle pointing to the left field and say he's going to hit a home run there.

Mike Durkin 12:30

I thought it was crazy, actually. So anyway, but anyway, I did what he said. And a week later, I came back and I got on the scale and I was five pounds less. I lost five pounds in a week, you know, just by changing, you know, going from that high calorie, high carb cereal which I shouldn't have been on, you know, in the first place to to protein. And after that, in fact, right now, you know, um, you know, you know, I have every, pretty much every day I have an omelet as almost a staple of for breakfast every every day, not just a hybrid omelet with some, some vegetables and but I'm off the you know, on a very low carb diet.

Mike 13:20

Right. Yeah. You know, the, his, you know, he's doing his workouts, he gave up carbohydrates. And I want to actually ask you, I want the audience to know who cookie is Michael

Mike Durkin 13:32

cookie, Oh, Cookie is my 80 pound Labradoodle who just turned 12 This past week. And but back in 2011, she was in their prime and loved to walk and and she was, you know, after my wife passed away, she became, you know, kind of and my kids were away to school I was by myself and it was just me and cookie. And the nice part about cookie is she was she other than Mike the best Personal Trainer I've ever had because it's at six in the morning she'd stick her wet and black nose in my face and say we got to go out and walk and whether it was you know, raining or snowing or no matter what the weather was she you know, she had to go at the, at a minimum three times a day and she was very athletic we I live in an area on Palisades and jersey. So there's a lot of hills and up and down and a lot of a lot of walking. You know, that's pretty strenuous for an athletic dog. So I ended up walking probably, you know, at least an hour, sometimes two hours a day as my main exercise quite frankly, besides inform that was really my only other exercise

Mike 14:56

right, so as I was just going to ask you didn't do any other cardio type of exercises like biking or elliptical or treadmill, nothing,

Mike Durkin 15:04

No, it was just Just what I did here and just a lot of walking. That was, you know, that's what I did.

Mike 15:11

You know, and I and so 12 months later, you know, you were 70, you lost 66 pounds, and we got to a low of 199 pounds. I vividly remember a conversation with you, when I asked you about how you feel compared to when you then to when you to how you felt before you ever came in. And us, you told me I felt like I was 100 years old. And and you were on medication for everything, cholesterol and diabetes, you know, and, and I said, Well, how do you how do you feel now? And you said, I feel like I'm 30 Now, you know, and I was like I never forget that conversation. And I'm telling Adam, and I'm so excited to show your results and tell everybody Hey, I got this 70 year old client who lost 66 pounds in the last 12 months,

Adam 16:04

who is definitely for that period of time. Our poster child.

Mike 16:06

Yeah, it was it was like it was I couldn't I never felt happier in my life. I mean, we've had so many success stories, but this was something that just given Mike's history at that point. I was so excited. And then And then around that time, Mike what happened next?

Mike Durkin 16:22

Well, life is sometimes is cruel. And having basically gotten rid of, you know, through diet and exercise, the diabetes went away, you know, my, you know, my numbers were normal. I went off the pills that I had been on. My blood pressure was normal. Cholesterol was normal. Every everything was normal. I was feeling great, except for one thing I was starting, I was having some urinary tract problems, pretty severe ones. And I had a couple of biopsies prior to that on my prostate and they turned out to be negative. But my PSA, which is indicator, one of these indicators of potential cancer was going up pretty dramatically high. So I went for my annual physical at that point. You know, I said to my doctor, I said, Gee, and I feel great. I feel terrific, except for this one thing is bothering me this, this this, this this PSA it shouldn't you know, you know, it's just crazy why it's so high. And yet I know, from these biopsies, I don't have cancer, but you know, I just can't figure out what's going on. So So she said, Well, let me send you to another urologist who's the best diagnostician. I know, she sent me over to him. And he said, he looked at me and he said, Well, we got to do an MRI on you on the prostate. And within the next day, I get the call. And he says, Well, I got bad news. You've got essentially the equivalent of, of stage four cancer. And it was it was bad. And they said, at that point that the problem is we it's, you know, we because we missed it, we think it's spread, you know, and, you know, you may have if it is spread, maybe you got a year to live. So I said, I can't believe this, I said well just cut it, you know what, let's just do surgery and just get it out. And they said, well, it's too late. In other words, that should have been done if years ago, you know, so what we've got to do is threefold number one, we got to shrink your prostate, so it's small enough that we can do radiation on it, we've got to give you some hormone treatment that eliminates testosterone in your body because prostate cancer grows on testosterone. And you know, it's it's we think, again, it's it's outside of the prostate and could kill you, if it's in the bones or lungs are other parts of vital organs. So we got to, we've got to eliminate the testosterone in your body. And we've got to put you on chemotherapy, you know, daily chemotherapy pills to in the event it has spread that would kill it off outside of the prostate. And so you know, and I said, Well, what's the side effects and and they kind of gave me all the side effects which, you know, you listen to the side effects and you say, I'd rather die than go through those side effects. And doctors just say, Well, look, I mean, those we got it. These are the potential side effects but you know, that not everybody has these side effects and some people don't have Have any of them? And they said, I said, Well, what's the one that, you know, most likely I am going to have? And they said, well, because of eliminating the testosterone in your body, you're going to gain weight. I don't know, to anybody else. Gaining weight would have been okay, I can handle that. But for me, I've just spent a year losing 65 pounds. Feeling like, like getting punched in the stomach. I said, how much am I gonna gain? He said, Well, you know, you're gonna probably gain 30 35 pounds, you know? Oh, Jesus Christ. Yeah. Yeah, after all of this, what am I gonna tell my trainer. Anyway, long story short, I mean, like, what are you gonna do? I mean, I had, you know, two daughters who were young, and I had to take care of them. And I had told my wife before she died, you know, I was gonna do everything I could to stay alive and healthy as long as I could. So I basically went on that program, and and

Mike 21:11

how much did you how much did you gain?

Mike Durkin 21:13

Okay, we're right, I went from, you know, 199 It went up to about 235 I think, while I was on a while I,

Adam 21:21

how about you diet, did that change?

Mike Durkin 21:22

No, I maintained the same eating I in fact, I came here every single week, like I had always done right through the treatment, I remember telling the cancer doctor when I was going, I went for I went for, you know, the, the radiation five days a week for it was at least two months, maybe three months. I came and I told the, I told the doctor, you know, I go, you know, I go, I do training, strength training once once a week, and I keep doing that and and he said, Well, you know, when cancer when this radiation is as it kind of builds in each each, each week, so as you get towards the end, you might not have the strength to do exercise you might and but I did it every week right through you know, I actually worked every day too, that's the other thing I was working because this is what what was keeping my mind off of my my wife's passing away and all the other thing I was working every day, and I was having my treatment every day and watching my keeping good. I really keeping to my same exact health regime, the eating and exercise, eat throughout the whole period.

Mike 22:42

it's such a fascinating thing. You know, Adam and I have talked about it many times, but it's the idea that, you know, you still kept a very low to no carb diet. And regardless of that, you gained 35 pounds

Mike Durkin 22:56

right, the identical diet.

Mike 22:58

So the workout stayed the same. You're walking with cookie stayed the same? Yeah, your relative activity level, he ate the same right Right. Welcome to New York brother, here we go with the sirens. So all those things were the same, um, and still you gained 35 pounds, you're on the same program you had? And, and so it really, it really begs the question, how relevant are hormones like testosterone? What's the link or the relationship with our muscle growth and our fat loss?

Adam 23:35

well, these mechanisms are still being found out. But the bottom line is, as we discussed in one of our other episodes, when we did the secret life of fat, there are a lot of variables to weight gain. And here's a perfect example of how you change your hormone situation. And you have weight gain. So before you start judging people that are fat, and start thinking that they're not disciplined, they don't know how to eat and they're lazy and they don't, they're not active enough. And you want to blame the sedentary lifestyle. Well, think twice before you talk because there are so many other variables, including hormonal changes, and they're real. And here's a perfect example. Somebody only thing that changed was his hormone levels of testosterone and you gained weight. The doctor knew it was gonna happen, he was always able to predict the amount of weight that you're going to gain. Alright, so this happens, it's regular. So, you know, when you it's tricky. I mean, that whole book, The Secret Life of fat, I mean, like, you know, the mechanisms and why we gain weight and how to lose weight. It's tricky. It's very tricky. It's not black and white. And we have a lot to learn. And, you know, so we just got to keep plugging and figuring it out. But um, but this there's there's a silver lining to this story, obviously.

Mike 24:48

Yeah, the well over it went through all these treatments. And it was about four and a half, five years, right. And then eventually, you were they declared you cancer free.

Mike Durkin 25:00

Yep, yeah, you know, after I went through, you know, what I described to you had a choice, you know, to continue if I wanted to, on a low level basis, some of this or just go off completely. I said, look, let's, I prefer to go off completely, because I'd really, you know, like to get back to normal. And they so doctor said, Okay, what we'll do initially is I'll just, you know, check in, you know, we'll go off all the medication that you were on, and we'll check in every three months, you know, if cancer comes back, and we'll, you know, at least, you know, we'll catch it quickly, and then we can put you back on, on whatever cancer treatment is, would be, you know, required. But, you know, the first year I went every three months, it hadn't come back. Then the next year, he said, Well, let's, why don't you come back every, you know, every, every four months, and I did that, and then it hadn't come back. And, and then they just most recently, they said, well, let's, let's come back every every six months. And the last time I was there was just last month in May, and the guy gave me a big hug the doctor, he's not necessarily a very emotional guy, normally, he said, You know, it's a people like you that make my job worthwhile. Because, you know, I don't have that many successes. Or at least, not as many as I would like, and you're one of these successes, where you've cancer free and your testosterone is normal. I was last week when they, you know, I was 197 pounds. So actually below the 199 That I'd gotten to the previous time, my, this doctor said that he saw me being a sort of ideal way to get in my weight, my age and build would be sort of in the 190 to 199 range, if I can hang in there, which is really where I am right now.

Adam 27:08

Congratulations.

Mike 27:09

Yeah, that's the that's the interesting point that you just sort of jumped right to is that there was another term after you became cancer free, that testosterone started to come back into your body just naturally, and your hair came back onto your arms and right and all the all the the the effects of testosterone as it comes back muscle growth even came back at a higher degree. And then, and that's what's interesting is he went from losing the 66, getting cancer, gaining 35, whatever. And then right after the cancer, that test, testosterone came back, and you just kept your entire routine the entire way. And then you lost the weight again, right went down another 40 or 40 pounds. And so it's really, it really is a remarkable roller coaster ride, which I mean, you know, Adam just

Adam 28:02

won consistency with this roller coaster, I was your perseverance and your dedication. And you honored your wife, you know, you word to your wife. Well, I think it's a beautiful, beautiful story.

Mike Durkin 28:12

I had a lot of help from friends and inform fitness was a vital part of what I did. I mean, there's no question about that. But I made a point, no matter how I was feeling to get to get here because I really felt that strength training. And what I did here was a was a really crucial part of the whole program, in addition to the walking with cookie,

Adam 28:35

and the low carb diet, the sugar feeds cancer. So you stayed on that you need to give up?

Mike Durkin 28:40

Yes. And so it was really, it was a combination of all those factors

Adam 28:47

it's so many times the attitude of the patient means so much. It just it just seems and it's anecdotal, of course, but it just seems that people do so much better when they have the right attitude, going into all this stuff, and, and never give up. I don't care what it is.

Mike 29:06

And it's also just another extra point. It's like you really, it's almost you're never too old to make some progress in your life to make it better. I mean, we have we have clients even in their 80s and even 90s and dramatic changes in their body. And I mean, mostly for getting it for strength training, but I mean, you were very compliant with your nutrition and, and your routine. And but I think a lot of people once again, they're they immediately think it's hopeless to even try to lose fat over after you're 70 years old

Adam 29:38

Exactly, or strength and the aches and pains are inevitable and accepted and doesn't have to be that way. And that's a great point Mike.

Mike 29:46

Yep. So Michael We so appreciate that you could be our guest and we are so grateful and honored to have you as our client and our friend. I mean this is it gives me the chills even thinking about the story and even and even the intro with your Your wife. And so, I mean, you're obviously very fortunate to have her as a, as a motivating force and a spirit in your life. And we're so lucky to have you here

Adam 30:09

So we'd like to come back on the show in about 10 years.

Mike Durkin 30:11

That would be great.

Mike 30:14

Every decade we need, yeah, we'll check in

Mike Durkin 30:17

that will keep me young.

Adam 30:18

That time, you'll be about 10 years old.

Mike Durkin 30:22

My other song as you know, keep me young at heart, which is, go for it. Go to fairy tales can come true. It could happen to you. If you're young at heart. It's hard you will find to be narrow of mind. If you're young at heart. You can go to extremes with impossible schemes. You can laugh when your dreams fall apart at the seams, and life gets more exciting with each passing day. Love is either in your heart or on the way, don't you know that it's worth every treasure on Earth. To be young god heart. as rich as you are, it's much better by far to be young at heart. And if you should survive to 105 So I'll be here till 105 Think of all you'll derive out of being alive and here's the best part. You'll have a head start if you are among the very young at heart.

Tim Edwards 31:30

Boy, that was a great episode. And hopefully, you have been inspired by Michael Durkin's story. We look forward to having him back with us in 10 years just as He promised us. Hey, remember early on in the episode, Mike told us that he was a backup singer for Bon Jovi back in the day. Well in the shownotes there's a link to the Bon Jovi song one wild night where you can hear Mike singing in the background and that primal scream he mentioned right at around the two and a half minute mark. Very cool. Also in the show notes, as always is a link to informfitness.com Click on over there and you'll find a free workout waiting for you. Click the Try it free button right there on the homepage. Fill out the form. Pick your location and enjoy a free slow motion high intensity full body workout in just 20 minutes. And if you don't live near an inform fitness location, you can always order Adams book power of 10 to once a week slow motion fitness revolution it's just a click away and available at Amazon. For less than 15 bucks you'll find exercises that you can perform in your own home, along with some great nutritional tips to help you build the muscle and burn the fat. Speaking of fat, Adam mentioned the book The Secret Life of fat earlier in the episode. You might remember our interview with author Dr. Sylvia Tara back in episode number 22. Well, how would you like to download her audio book for free? Simply click the link in the show notes to audible trial.com forward slash inbound and sign up for a free 30 day membership trial to Audible. then, download the book for free, or any book that you can find in audible. If you like podcasts, you're going to love audio books, give it a shot and try it risk free for 30 days. That's audible trial.com forward slash inbound. Well that's gonna do it for this episode and we hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. And make sure you join us next time for the inform fitness podcast for Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting Network.

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Adam Zickerman is joined by personal trainer, author, and speaker Simon Shawcross to discuss the state of high-intensity training methods across the globe. What are the different philosophies associated with high-intensity training and some of the commonalities regarding this protocol as practiced around the world.
http://simonshawcross.com

Adam Zickerman - Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution: http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen For a FREE 20-Minute strength training full-body workout and to find an Inform Fitness location nearest you, please visit: http://bit.ly/Podcast_FreeWorkout

51 High-Intensity Training Across the Globe with Simon Shawcross Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, exercise, high intensity, simon, workout, seconds, high intensity training, compound movement, minutes, trainer, physiology, muscle tissue, inform, fitness, hutchins, rigid, resistance training, performed, protocol, ken

SPEAKERS

Tim Edwards, Simon Shawcross, Adam

Simon Shawcross 00:06

Putting a little bit of reality into exercise and there are opportunities for people like you know, here inform in Manhattan to walk off the street and walk into a place where they're going to be really well looked after, and that that is replicated and can be replicated even more around the world. Can you provide your client with an experience that reinforces the positive impact of a high intensity training workout.

Tim Edwards 00:34

Hello, once again, inform nation we certainly appreciate you joining us here for episode number 51 of the inform fitness podcast, Tim Edwards here with the inbound podcasting network and a longtime client of inform Fitness. Today, the founder of inform Fitness in New York Times bestselling author Adam Zickerman is joined by Simon Shawcross. Now one of the first things you'll notice about Simon is that he flew across the pond to spend some time with Adam. He's a fellow high intensity personal trainer based out of London, in addition to his personal training, Simon is a weight loss coach and the co author of the book, the one diet, Simon can be found traveling around the world and speaking to corporations as a wellness expert. So in this episode, Simon and Adam will discuss the state of high intensity training methods across the globe. What are some of the different philosophies associated with high intensity training, and, of course, some of the common threads regarding this protocol as practiced around the world.

Adam 01:33

Hello, everybody. Welcome to the show. This is kind of cool. This is kind of impromptu, get together. I have with me today, Simon Shawcross. He's from across the pond, Simon works with a lot of trainers all around the country. He's a, he's an educator, and he has some really valuable insight, I think, because he talks to people like me, all around the world, people that are advocates for high intensity training. And because he's talking to so many different people, we'll be interesting to see their takes on high intensity training, and if there's any variation of a theme that we can learn from. So so welcome to the show, Simon.

Simon Shawcross 02:09

Thank you, Adam. Hi, Tim. Hi, everyone who's listening.

Adam 02:13

So Simon, as I said, you've been around the world interviewing entrepreneurs, high intensity enthusiasts, researchers, scientists, doctors, about high intensity training. We've just spoken about my philosophy, even you visited our gym for a while, we talked about what we do, how we do it. And my listeners, for the most part, know our approach. So what's different out there? What were the variations? What are people doing? That might be slightly different and interesting, how they approach whether it be from an exercise physiology point of view or training point of view, or maybe even from a business point of view? You can go wherever you want with this to start, and we'll take it from there.

Simon Shawcross 02:53

Okay, well, I think I'll start off with a fairly recent conversation with Dr. Doug McGuff.

Adam 02:58

Okay

Simon Shawcross 02:59

about exercise into middle age and beyond, and looking at things like myokines and the research that is being done about really, effectively a young science. It's only about 10 years old, now and just showing the impact that muscle tissue has on the human physiology and the fact that is no longer looked as like a sort of set of dumb fibers of the nervous system act on. Now we can look at it as a accretionary organ that has hugely beneficial effects and implications.

Adam 03:31

So muscles are accretionary organ. And one of those things that you just mentioned myokines,

Simon Shawcross 03:35

myokines absolutely yeah

Adam 03:36

so what are those things that secretes myokines,

Simon Shawcross 03:38

which in myokines just go out and send signals to other muscle cells. And in some cases, cells around the body telling them to do certain things, effectively telling them to get fitter and to get better and more capable. So that's that's one aspect of the stuff we're learning nowadays is we've always known how much of a positive impact this has. But we're also now learning how much of that positive impact and how that occurs. So we can perhaps explain it better in the future to our clients as well.

Adam 04:09

So what about myokines? So let's get into these myokines a littl

Simon Shawcross 04:12

sure

Adam 04:13

what was Dr. McGuff, talking about them and saying,

Simon Shawcross 04:16

effectively saying that when you cause the release of myokines, what you're doing is you're sending this very strong signal to the body to certain organs, to get stronger to get more capable to send in some some situations. an anti tumor message with myokines have been shown to have a positive impact on certain answers. So it really is how the human physiology responds to strengthening exercise at a cellular level. Okay, so we come from behind NC, both of us, we come from a high intensity training community. And I tell you in the past, this community has been quite rigid sometimes about what exercise is. And probably that's a very understandable reaction to kind of what goes as being fitness out there in the wider in the wider world

Adam 05:12

right

Simon Shawcross 05:13

Because you know, anything you can throw at a wall and sticks gets promoted and sold as exercise out there. And you know, if you've got if you go out and your purpose is to go and have fun, fine. But we also know that to create a really positive physiologic adaptation, we want the intensity to be high enough. And if we're going to make the intensity relatively high, we also want to do it safely. So we have longevity behind this. And I think what we've been seeing is that people were too rigid about high intensity training in the past, and people within the industry are really focused, can be focused on the minutiae, and arguing and infighting about the minutiae, a little bit too much. And once, that might be an understatement. But what is super refreshing, but I'm beginning to experience at the moment is that if you actually go and visit people who are putting who are on the ground, putting this work in, day in and day out, there are permutations, and there are things that people are doing, that are a little bit more open minded than perhaps may come up, come across online, that engage the audience, and keep people coming back through the door, consistently, week after week and year after year, whilst not diluting. What is what our core message is and that stuff is interesting.

Adam 06:40

I love it. I love it. Okay, so before we start getting into the variations that you're referring to, and the open mindedness that you're referring to, and what you're noticing is people becoming less rigid from those core principles that are out there. Let's talk about those core principles First, and what a rigid protocol might look like. And then we'll we'll expand from there.

Simon Shawcross 07:02

Okay, so I would say like a very traditional approach to this would be, let's say, one or two workouts a week, performed on relatively high end equipment. So you could say decent, Nautilus MedX, David equipment, performed, one set to failure, sets lasting 60 to 90 seconds, a workout totaling probably around about 20 minutes would be typical. And, and that's it. So a person walks in off the street, performs that routine with a trainer, they might stick to a very rigid tempo or cadence during that time as well. So a person might say, you, it's imperative that you move up in eight seconds and move back down in eight seconds on it on every exercise, and to every individual who walks through that door.

Adam 07:52

No cardio right,

Simon Shawcross 07:53

the traditional high intensity training interpretation would be you're getting your cardio right, whilst you're doing the workout. What I'm seeing now with some of the places that I'm visiting, is, let's take that example of cardio.

Adam 08:06

Yeah

Simon Shawcross 08:06

is that people are incorporating a more traditional cardio modality into the protocol too so they might have somebody on an exercise bike or, or a cross trainer, or even even a recumbent bike or a treadmill, if it's appropriate, and performing high intensity start interval training

Adam 08:29

on the bike

Simon Shawcross 08:31

Yeah, exactly. And so

Adam 08:33

so they're not doing steady state necessarily

Simon Shawcross 08:35

No, not necessarily, I'd say within the in the gym environment, that would be pretty much a no to the steady state stuff. They wouldn't have any

Adam 08:42

within the high intensity training community

Simon Shawcross 08:43

they wouldn't have somebody come in and sit, park their bum on the treadmill for 20 minutes or on the bike for 20 minutes

Adam 08:50

So they're doing intervals

Simon Shawcross 08:52

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Adam 08:54

Separate from the weight training workout, or are they are they doing interval and doing the high intensity?

Simon Shawcross 08:59

That's a good question. I've seen it and know that being done both ways. So sometimes, a trainer will have somebody come in on, let's say a Monday, do it. Quite a traditional high intensity resistance or strength training workout, and then the client will come back in on another day of the week and do a 20 minute or a 20 minute high intensity interval training workout probably of which, no more than sort of 10 minutes about is is really intense stuff.

Adam 09:26

Right. So what what are you finding out is the rationale so what why are they deciding to break away from the rigid original? I mean, let's let's say, you know, the way Ken Hutchins originally laid, laid it out. Uh huh. Ken Hutchins, for those that don't know, he pretty much is the architect of the slow high intensity training movement. He named it super slow. It's basically lifting 10 seconds up originally was five seconds down because machines at the time had a little bit more friction than normal. Now the machines have less friction, a typical super slow protocol might be 10 seconds up, 10 seconds down, no room for any types of steady state cardio, stretching, flexibility, balance, none of that stuff in the way Simon described it, it was just five or six compound movement exercises to muscle failure one set, and you're done

Simon Shawcross 10:24

Yeah

Adam 10:24

So what? So back to the question? What is the rationale? What has been the rationale for people kind of moving out of that dogmatic idea?

Simon Shawcross 10:35

Well, I think it's probably probably twofold. One would be that people enjoy that kind of intense cardio, if we're going to call it that. And people, there's a demand for it, too. So you could be ultra strict in saying, my facility only does high intensity, strength or resistance training. And you could educate your, your clients, people who walk through your door saying that, that's all we do here. And you might find that some people don't come back, because they are looking to engage in something like this. And if as a trainer, you can apply this modality safely and effectively or perhaps more safely than you could do or, or with a higher degree of respect, then might happen at other facilities, then why why wouldn't you and and it can serve a purpose to is it going to give you anything dramatically more than performing high intensity resistance training alone? No, I don't believe it would do. But I think for certain people, it's very appropriate because it helps them engage their physiology in a way that they find quite natural to do. And it gives them another another physiologic and psychological challenge, which is a value and I think you can't take the individual psychology out of the workout, there is always going to be that aspect. And if you're not tailoring to a to a degree, your workouts to your client, even within the resistance training side of stuff alone, then you're not doing the best you possibly can. for that individual. Now, it is a little bit contrary, it's probably the only exercise realm, our realm where it's controversial to say you might add in some high intensity interval training cardio, but I know that's something you've been doing as well here. Right?

Adam 12:39

Yeah. I've been definitely introducing for certain individuals, high intensity interval training for sure. And I asked you if it's mixed in during the workout, or is it a separate thing? Because I know what we're doing. I was just curious.

Simon Shawcross 12:53

I know, I've heard of it both ways

Adam 12:56

Yes. And we do it both ways as well. I find myself using the high intensity interval training with the types of people that don't seem to have a pulse. I, I can put them through like, you know, six or seven exercises and work out pretty darn hard for each one of them. And they walk out and say, Okay, thank you very much. And they zip out here like nothing happened. I'm like, Wow, if I did what they just did, I'd be on the floor like a puddle. But for some reason, I get them on that bike. And I do 20 seconds hard as you can on and then a minute off. And then I do that 2 3 or 4 times. And now that now there I'm peeling them off the floor, which is what I want to do. And so normally I'm incorporating with their workout within their workout. I also do a variation where I

Simon Shawcross 13:55

do you do that before or after the strengthening portion?

Adam 13:58

I do it after the strengthening for I want them to put as much as I can into the strengthening portion portion and stimulate those muscles for muscle growth. And then and then I like to push their energy systems, if you will, by throwing them on the bike at the end. Very rarely will I do it first. Because if I do intervals with them first and then they try to get them down the leg press or anything for that matter. You know, they're there. They're useless. Basically, there's another type of person different from that, that I also do intervals with in a different way. And those are the people kind of like myself, actually where I'll do five compound movements. Six, maybe, maybe add in a simple movement, you know, I just have this thing with bicep curls because I'm self conscious about my small biceps. I'm always throwing in bicep curls. It's an irrational thought, of course, but I do it. But I'm mainly doing a compound movement routine, and I'm pretty much wasted after five or six exercises. And I do that once a week. It turns out for me that that's nice for me once a week. But then I miss out because I get so blown out from just the big five. So maybe you need to give Dr. Mcguff, a plug, you know, the Doug McGuff, Big Five, after I do something similar to that I miss out on doing like rotary torso and back extensions, and neck extensions. And, you know, some AB crunches and things like that. And I feel like I want to do that as well. So what I do there is I'll do the rotary torso, I'll do low back extensions, do a routine like that. And then I'll do a set of intervals, separate from the major compound movement exercise routine, because I'm not really spent after I do.

Simon Shawcross 15:42

And that's been done on a second day in the same week?

Adam 15:45

no, that's the second day, in the same week, exactly within the same week. So So I'm doing set of intervals once maybe sometimes twice a week, if I'm stressed out and you know, intervals for me, you know, I'm literally doing 20 seconds on a minute off three or four times. But the 20 seconds I have on is I do it on a bicycle, and it's at a very high tension at very high RPMs. And to maintain 100 RPMs at the highest tension I can handle for 20 seconds. You know, it takes everything I got to keep that 100 from going in to 99. Oh, my God, you know, it seems the first 20 seconds, you know, pretty easy to keep it above 100. But you know, I keep that same tension a minute later. And I do it again. Wow. I mean, after 10 seconds, I'm already fighting to keep it above 100 rpms. And then the third and fourth time I do it. Probably the last 10 seconds of each of those. I'm like at 95 98

Simon Shawcross 16:43

bleeding off

Adam 16:43

Yeah, the bicycles rocking back and forth. I'm like putting the whole body into it horrible form at that point. And when I'm done with it all, it's so much gasping for air. And that relieves a lot of stress for me, quite honestl

Simon Shawcross 17:02

yeah, I'm with you. And now I recently set myself a challenge of running, running 800 meters fast as I can. And I'm just started doing it. I'm working working my way up a, what I had forgotten is how long the distance 800 meters is when you're trying to run at your maximum capacity for that, that length. And for me, that takes me around about three minutes. And that's like pushing it like that. It's hard. And then so what I'm doing

Adam 17:31

what is 800 meters about a half a mile? We're Americans here.

Simon Shawcross 17:34

800 meters. What's the conversion on that? I don't know. That's, that's Yeah, about, no exactly half a mile. how from I pretty much exactly half mile.

Adam 17:41

You said three minutes. And All right, good. That's pretty impressive. half mile three minutes,

Simon Shawcross 17:47

well, is I'm looking to get under three minutes. That's, that's my goal. So what I'm doing at the moment is breaking that down into smaller portions. So I'll do a minute and a half, take two minutes off, do another minute and a half look to get that pace as high as possible. And then I'm going to conjoin those back together again. But But what there is, and I get from it is a bit of a rush and a bit of a bit of pleasure of using my physiology and its capacity in a different way from resistance training or strength training.

Adam 18:17

Do you still call it exercise? We call that recreation out of curiosity? Because we you know, in our traditional mantras and dogma, right, we say that running is really a recreational pursuit, and doesn't have the exercise value as high intensity strength training does.

Simon Shawcross 18:33

Okay. We seems like we brought up Dr. McGuff several times already. So I'm gonna bring

Adam 18:39

what the hell

Simon Shawcross 18:40

it up again, let's let's do that again. Cuz he's got some great perspective.

Adam 18:44

Hey Doug, if you're listening to this, you got to give me some plugs, too.

Simon Shawcross 18:48

So, you know, it's like he what he what he said to me was like, if you're ever in a really bad situation, it would be good to be able to run as fast as possible out of that situation. And it reminded me of a martial arts mentor of mine as well who like a young kid at the gym came up to him and he's a mixed martial arts guide, this instruction, really good at all have a sort of attacking and defensive arts that would be used to be you know, in the octagon or whatever. And the kids said, like, I really want to be at my best for the street. I only want to learn the stuff that's most appropriate for if I get up in a street fight. Yeah, what should I do? And he said roadwork

Adam 19:29

run right. I love it. Yeah, I agree. I can't even know I'm in that camp of people that have I was definitely a Hutchy, you know, they call Hutchys people that just kind of blindly follow Ken Hutchins, original philosophy. It's nothing personal against Ken Hutchins. I mean, I kind of feel I kind of feel we need we all needed as dogmatic and as rigid as Ken Hutchins is, was at least we all need people like that. You know, because like you said early earlier in the show, you know, there's so much crap out there that you have to regret. Yeah, you have to kind of it kind of reminds me of Frederick Douglass, you know, the abolitionists and how he was not willing to compromise on slavery at all. Whereas, and he had all these head to head combat with Lincoln, because, you know, he's telling Lincoln just abolish slavery. What, how hard is this? I mean, it's immoral, it's wrong. And he's like, Well, it's more complicated than that. And of course, you know, Frederick Douglass is like, there is no complication. He says, yes, there is, you know, the states rights, blah, blah, blah, anyway. Oh, ultimately, Lincoln was right. In order to have progress, he had to compromise and meet somewhere in the middle. And I kind of feel Ken Hutchins had to do that to, to, to just be so absolute about certain concepts, and to really make people think and get them pissed off and get them to create all this discourse to bring us to where we are now.

Simon Shawcross 20:56

Right

Adam 20:56

And here we are now. And we are all respecting and honoring what Ken Hutchins did for sure. But at the same time, we're realizing that interval training, the psychology of it, one size fits all, you know, the genetics and the phenotypes and genotypes that we experienced. And we're finding out about, you know, somebody needs a higher tol right, or lower Tol. Somebody like me, who does five exercises, I can't get off the floor yet I put somebody else who those same five exercises working out just as hard, you know, they they can sing an aria after that somehow, you know, you know, so like, obviously, there are differences, right?

Simon Shawcross 21:35

Absolutely, what I noticed is that as a as a long, lean, lanky guy who who's perhaps naturally adept, or more adept at running

Adam 21:44

right

Simon Shawcross 21:45

is like how many guys in the strengthening industry a bigger guys who naturally carry more muscle tissue? And it's like, is what you're saying people tend to be drawn to what they're good at

Adam 21:56

Right

Simon Shawcross 21:57

But unless you're capable of walking a mile in someone else's shoes and understanding Well, not quite work exactly the same way for somebody. Exactly. Yeah. For somebody else, you've got to be able to go okay, that physiology might need something adaptive, or, or something changing in the protocol from away, I would apply it to myself. And I think the great trainers out there, look at the person in front, when we were talking about this earlier, you were saying exactly what you do best is that you look at the person in front of you, you understand the exercise hitch history, when they were an American football player, you know, a defensive lineman or when a quarterback running around the field like crazy

Adam 22:35

I'm impressed with your football knowledge.

Simon Shawcross 22:36

just just picked it up as I go

Adam 22:40

Very good. Yeah. So So speaking, let's use you, for example, because you are the tall lanky type and I would size you up no pun intended. Again, I would size you up as more of an endurance athlete. You're lanky, tall, yeah. Are you naturally good runner

Simon Shawcross 22:56

reasonably. Like I'm not crazy. I'm not world like I'm not going to be sitting any any world records. And I'm far too old for that now anyway. But I enjoy it. And so I strength training supports that as well.

Adam 23:07

Well, I want to know what what how are you strength training? How are your tuls? Well, are you doing your exercise are you doing five are doing compound movements, what works best for you?

Simon Shawcross 23:16

for me, and I've really gone through the ringer of looking to do a little bit of everything, to see what works. So I've done a ridiculously low, low amount of like two exercises once a week. And what I can tell you from my physiology, personally that really doesn't do it. What I have found that that really does work for me is that I would do about eight or nine exercises, probably four, maybe five of those, probably four of those would be compound, and then the rest will be single joint. And what I'll do is I'll throw in the stuff, but you say you're unable to throw a throw in, in a single word

Adam 23:53

right

Simon Shawcross 23:53

but I'll pepper my full body workout with both. So like I get the neck stuff in there, I might get the isolation for biceps, triceps, in there isolation exercise for the calves, and so on. And I'll do eight or nine exercises in one workout. And I do that workout once a week and my tolls tend to be at the higher end, I just know that works better for me.

Adam 24:14

You said tolls, mean time under load, by the way

Simon Shawcross 24:16

right, So mine will be up at like, I look to make it 90 to about 100 seconds around about that ballpark. Or if I can do 100 seconds with impeccable form, then I'm going to put the load up but if I were to change load at 60, 60 seconds or 70 seconds doesn't work as well for me that that load time works great and some some of the bigger guys, they can't really get past that kind of load time. Right? effectively.

Adam 24:44

So yeah, I'm actually in between that. You know, if I was to workout, my workout for more than 100 seconds, 120 seconds. I mean it's torture for me. You know my t u L's time times under load are really in I'm really comfortable in the like 75 seconds range.

Simon Shawcross 25:02

I feel like I'm just getting beyond the warm up at that point, you know,

Adam 25:06

and this is what we're talking about mean, these variations you got a good trainer needs need to observe these things about people and make those adaptations. And that's why it doesn't make any sense to be so dogmatic and stick to one routine. I was like that in the beginning of my career,

Simon Shawcross 25:19

I think we all we all were,

Adam 25:20

I mean, I was definitely a Hutchy for sure. And I'm proud of it, you know,

Simon Shawcross 25:26

yeah, the other good thing. Just to touch on something you sort of mentioned earlier, one of the great things about that Ken Hutchins and superslow thing that happened. Think of all the people out there now from that Genesis, or you could take it back and even go to Arthur Jones

Adam 25:40

sure

Simon Shawcross 25:40

from that Genesis, then and now peppered all over the world, putting a little bit of reality into exercise. And there are opportunities for people, like, you know, here at inform in Manhattan to walk off the street and walk into a place where they're going to be really well looked after. And that that is replicated, and can be replicated even more around the world.

Adam 26:01

Yeah, it's amazing. And it started with Ken and he gets all the credit for that. And what's beautiful now is that we're all putting our own twist on it, you know, and adding our own insights and our own experiences. And it's been it's evolving beautifully and and, and although there's too much infighting about the these variations, and oh, I can't believe he's doing that. And I can't go negative only is that's been proven not to work, you know, and all the fighting and the insults and but if you can read between those lines, I personally see all that stuff. And although I might say why can't we all get along? I also smile and say, Look at this, this is great. I mean, Thank you, Ken Hutchins, for getting this going, quite honestly, and Arthur Jones, thank you for getting this going. And what I do is I just I'm a voyeur. Like I don't get involved in those fights, but I listen to them all and I watch and and I pick up things. Oh, that has that got. It's like watching great debates, you know?

Simon Shawcross 26:56

Yeah

Adam 26:56

And although you can get out of the insult insults, you know, you watch a great debate, you kind of make you come to your own conclusions about things and you bring them into your own experiences. And, and you you know, impart that to your client base and yourself. You know, so that's, that's why it's great having you on because you unlike, I mean, I talked to plenty of people in the industry, but you know, it's your job basically, to be going around talking to everybody.

Simon Shawcross 27:20

Well, another another person. I know, you're you're good friends with Bill DeSimone. The stuff that he's doing,

Adam 27:27

he's not such a good friend

Simon Shawcross 27:29

Okay.

Adam 27:31

I know him, no I'm kidding. I love you Bill.

Simon Shawcross 27:34

This stuff, but he's this stuff that he's doing. His work is kind of well outside what people would

Adam 27:42

Well, depends who you talk. It's all relative. Right? Well outside of what. Yeah, well, outside of like the classic Hucthins.

Simon Shawcross 27:48

Exactly, exactly. Yes.

Adam 27:52

Do you mind sharing some of what you've learned from Bill?

Simon Shawcross 27:54

Bill bills will happily use battle ropes in his gym. he says, you know, 90% 90% of the stuff you can do on battle ropes 95% of it's crap. Don't do it. You're going to injure yourself

Adam 28:04

Right Right

Simon Shawcross 28:05

He's isolated what he thinks is the approach to you with the battle ropes and and it keeps people engaged. And you might have young athletes coming in through the door who want to engage, you know, they see the football players, the MMA guys doing this kind of sexy lookin' hardcore stuff.

Adam 28:21

Yeah

Simon Shawcross 28:21

And if he can draw out a little bit about that actually works and is not dangerous, and will keep the client engaged. What's not to love about that?

Adam 28:30

I get it there for the same reason. We don't have those in our gym, and I don't think we ever will. But we have, you know, along the same lines that we have TRX straps do we use TRX from time to time we're doing chin ups and regular stuff like that bodyweight work we're doing bird dogs and floor work and we're and we're borrowing from other disciplines like Pilates and yoga.

Simon Shawcross 28:52

Yeah

Adam 28:53

And again, they're there were not like he said about the battle ropes about 80% of it is hogwash, how they use them. And 20% of it actually has some some value. You know, and you can't throw you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, as they say, and you shouldn't dismiss and a lot of people have but you said you're glad to see that people are opening up their minds and not dismissing it. It doesn't fit into their neat little idea.

Simon Shawcross 29:23

Absolutely. That's what I'm seeing. That's what I'm saying. I think the other thing is that we need to remember is high intensity trainers. It's fun to be physical. Like if you if you started to create this this better engine, this better motor. You know, with people who come in through the door who pretty dysfunctional physically maybe start off with. You don't want to deny them the opportunity to be physical in, in that physicality in that body that you've created now

Adam 29:27

right

Simon Shawcross 29:30

It's like you want to fire up the engines

Adam 29:52

you want to nurture that you want to inspire them to use their new strength. And again, you warn them and you caution them and you say this and you know, and you go through the exercise vs. recreation and, and I want you to use your body now that you are strong enough to use it and play your sports. But, you know, let's put things in perspective and context. And I think it's all good.

Simon Shawcross 30:14

Mm hmm. I think the thing that we see where the high intensity stuff is really important is that the strength training itself doesn't get diluted too much. It's like, that's the the underpinning of all that success in physiology is high intensity, safely applied resistance training, and we don't want to dilute that. That aspect of it. You don't want people doing doing crazy wild stuff, trying to build their muscle tissue on a balance ball or ridiculous things you occasionally see on YouTube if you ever spend any time there.

Adam 30:46

I do just because I'd have to sometimes, and but yeah, so Simon, to change gears a little bit, as you know that I wrote power of 10. And the power of 10 has the three pillars, exercise, rest and nutrition. And the rest part is not just about sleeping, rest part is also about relieving stress. And I was wondering, you know, one thing that I've noticed is changing in our industry, is that a lot of the practitioners now, and I think for the better, are incorporating a lot more of the meditator breathing techniques that would speak more to the rest and recovery aspect of working out. And are you noticing that that's changing a little bit, because, you know, back in the day, you know, meditation, breathing techniques, you know, that was kind of just poopoo just just don't work out, you know, more than once a week or twice a week. And that's considered rest. But rest now is a lot deeper than just that.

Simon Shawcross 31:45

Yeah, I think and the recovery side of the picture is, in many ways, as important or more important than the training, so you've got, obviously got to do the training. But that recovery side, it can be influenced. And sleep is super, super important. You know, you've got to be getting good quality sleep. But there are other things as you've rightly said, that you can be doing to enhance your recovery from intense resistance training. Things I'd because I've got it to hand personally things I like to do is to go out for a very calm walk first thing in the morning, on the trails, in a meditative type of way. So I'm just walking around pondering my day ahead of me before the stresses of a working day start. For me that combines meditation, where I'm focused on my footsteps, I'm focused on my breathing. And I'm focused on the environment around me and enjoying that process. And that sets me up for a productive day. That also for me, that helps to enhance my recovery from intense exercise. I know a difference between times when I do factor that in and schedule that in, which I'm much better at doing nowadays. But in the past, where I just like, Get up, grab a cup of coffee, and be straight into my working day. And I know it would take me a day, maybe two days longer to recover from an intense workout.

Adam 33:01

interesting

Simon Shawcross 33:02

yeah

Adam 33:02

Now that's your personal experience. Anecdotally, I mean, are you hearing any of that, outside of your personal experiences? I mean, we along with all your peregrinations, I, you are people kind of kind of saying the same thing to you

Simon Shawcross 33:16

In the wider picture. Yes, I think there are now more facilities that are starting to be open minded to in being inclusive in including other aspects. So they might have somebody who's doing massage therapy on site, they might have somebody who's teaching sort of a perhaps a meditative type of yoga on site. And these things are contributing to the client's overall wellness. And there there are, you know, there's loads of stuff you can do, you can you can look at nowadays, like, meditate for meditation to like, cold immersion, to infrared saunas, to to all sorts that you can look at and see, can you provide your client with an experience that's, that reinforces the positive impact of a high intensity training workout.

Adam 34:11

Yeah, and to me that that is really what the rest and recovery message is really about. It's not just getting good sleep, which of course, is obvious, you know, but but but putting you on that path, that that right path, that mental clarity, the ability to recover faster. I'm glad to hear that.

Simon Shawcross 34:30

And I think I think what's been missed perhaps is it matches really, really well with high intensity resistance training, because when somebody gets past their first I don't know 10 12 20 It takes different amounts of different people 20 sessions, when they get into this type of exercise, it's a very meditative type experience. It's just you your physiology, your muscle tissue and your nervous system, and the signals you're sending from your brain working together. And you're looking to remain as relaxed and yet focused as you can. Thats meditation.

Adam 34:59

That's right. That's right. Excellent. Excellent. Well, we'll end it there. That was a great way to wrap this up. And thank you so much for being here. I know you had a lot of people to see while you're here on East Coast. And thank you for taking the time to stop by our place and seeing us and doing this interview. And I hope to have you back. And we're going to be talking a lot more in the future.

Simon Shawcross 35:18

It's been an absolute pleasure. I look forward to that.

Adam 35:20

Thanks a lot.

Tim Edwards 35:22

Thanks again to Simon Shawcross, for his time here on the inform fitness podcast. In Adams interview with Simon he referenced his book titled power of 10, the once a week slow motion fitness revolution. If interested in checking it out for yourself, we'll have a link in the show notes that will take you to Amazon. And for less than 15 bucks, you'll find a ton of nutritional tips, including a handy list of foods that support the power of 10 protocol, and some effective exercise demonstrations of exercises that you can perform in the comfort of your own home. And if you'd like to listen to your books like I do, then check out another link in the show notes. This one will lead you to one of our new sponsors here on the inform fitness podcast, audible. If you do, there's a Free Audiobook download waiting for you. All you got to do is click the link in the show notes to audible trial.com forward slash inbound, sign up for a free 30 day membership trial and Download any book you like. Well, there are over 180,000 titles to choose from. If you decide to cancel your membership for any reason, and at any time, you keep all of your audiobook downloads. And while you're in there, you can pick out audiobooks from other guests we've had here on the inform fitness podcast, and you'll enjoy discounts of up to 30% Just by being an audible member. Alright, let's see. We've already thanked you for listening by giving you a Free Audiobook download from Audible. How about a free power of 10 workout, then click on over to the inform fitness website that's informfitness.com And of course that link to will be in the show notes. And then once you're at the webpage, you'll find a free slowmotion high intensity workout waiting for you just click the try us free button right there on the homepage. Fill out the form and pick your location. It's as simple as that you can experience a free full body workout that you will complete in just 20 to 30 minutes. Thanks again for listening. And for Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers of inform fitness. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting Network.

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Cathryn Jakobson Ramin who is an investigative journalist, a Lecturer, and the Author of the book Crooked: Outwitting the Back Pain Industry and Getting on the Road to Recovery, which is a brilliant and comprehensive book that is essential to millions of back pain sufferers and health-care professionals.
Cathryn Jakobson Ramin shatters assumptions about surgery, chiropractic methods, physical therapy, spinal injections, and painkillers and addresses evidence-based rehabilitation options describing in great detail, how to avoid therapeutic dead ends while saving money, time, and considerable anguish.
Cathryn Jakobson Ramin's Website: https://www.cathrynjakobsonramin.com
Download the audiobook Crooked: Outwitting the Back Pain Industry and Getting on the Road to Recovery in Audible: www.audibletrial.com/InBound

Adam Zickerman - Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution: http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen
For a FREE 20-Minute strength training full-body workout and to find an Inform Fitness location nearest you, please visit: http://bit.ly/Podcast_FreeWorkout

50 Outwitting Back Pain with Cathryn Jakobson Ramin Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

pain, people, book, exercise, patients, problem, surgeon, opioid, hurts, chronic pain, surgery, spine, prescription, injections, mri, called, long, program, drugs, absolutely

SPEAKERS

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin, Mike, Adam, Tim Edwards

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 00:05

The reason that exercise is successful with back pain patients is that it ends what really is the plague the back pain patient which is fear avoidance behavior, and catastrophizing and guarding. Those are three factors that we know of from basically they all come from behavioral psychology, but they are very, very prevalent in back pain patients and people who tend in that direction are the ones who frequently end up in chronic pain.

Tim Edwards 00:44

We are halfway to 100 Hello inform nation and welcome to episode number 50 of the inform fitness podcast with New York Times bestselling author and founder of inform fitness. Adam Zickerman. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting network and a client of inform fitness. Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers will be joined today by Cathryn Jakobson Ramin, who is an investigative journalist, a lecturer, and author of the book, crooked, Outwitting the back pain industry and getting on the road to recovery, which is a brilliant and comprehensive book that is essential to millions of back pain sufferers and healthcare professionals in Katherine's book, and in this episode, Catherine shatters assumptions about surgery, chiropractic methods, physical therapy, spinal injections and painkillers and addresses evidence based rehabilitation options. Describing in great detail how to avoid therapeutic dead ends while saving money, time, and most importantly, considerable anguish. Now if after listening to this episode, you decide to pick up Katherine's book, we will have a link in the show notes to audible trial.com forward slash inbound That's audible trial.com, forward slash inbound. And if you are not yet an audible member, you can sign up for a free 30 day trial membership and download the audio book crooked for free. If you decide to cancel your membership for any reason, you keep the book if you are already an audible member, and have cashed in your Free Audiobook download, then you'll receive a considerable discount on any of audibles 180,000 titles to choose from. Again, that's Audible trial.com forward slash inbound to get your free book just scroll on down to the show notes and you're one click away.

Adam 02:35

Hello everybody. Welcome to the show. This is gonna be a very good discussion, because it's about a subject that I am very personally involved with, which is of course back pain. me talk about my back issues on several of our episodes and we're just going to keep the ball rolling now so let's let's give them some some stats. Over 77 million people in United States experience back pain each year. For some the pain is present day and night for others. Well it shows up the moment the suitcase comes out of the closet or whenever the relatives come to stay stress. In other words, all in back trouble will cost the United States about 100 billion with a B dollars a year more than the cost of treating cancer, heart disease and aids combined. This prevalent woe exists in political, psychological, social and economic context that greatly influences how patients will be treated and if they'll ever recover. Today, we have with us journalist and author, Catherine Jacobson Raman, whose New York Times bestseller carved in sand. When attention fails and memory fades and midlife was published in 2007 spent years and a small fortune in her effort to resolve her own low back pain somebody similar to me. When nothing works, she decided to take an investigative look at the reality of the spine medicine arena. Expensive, ineffective, sometimes illegal, and often harmful. She found that the back pain industry exemplified the worst aspects of the US healthcare system. Today we welcome Catherine to our show, and to talk about her new groundbreaking book, crooked, Outwitting the back pain industry and getting on the road to recovery. Catherine, welcome to the show.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 04:19

Thank you so much. I'm delighted to be here with you today.

Adam 04:23

When I found out about your book, I had to get it immediately. I heard through the grapevine that you talked about some of the MedX machines that we use here and I needed to know what you felt about that. Little did I know I didn't realize you got this this book was thick. How many pages is it about?

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 04:41

I think it's 340 pages or so.

Adam 04:43

And it's broken up into two parts. The first part basically, is discussing all the issues with our healthcare industry and all the problems and misleading information in all how and how all the scientific evidence points at all these modalities that our doctors are trying to push on. US aren't working, and why. And then she goes into the second part of her book where she talks about, well guess what there is hope there are things you can do. So, without further ado, let's talk about the first half. And let's talk about this dismal situation that the healthcare industry is in, why are there so many ways to treat back pain, yet, so few of them are effective?

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 05:24

Well, back pain has largely been medicalized over the past 60 or 70 years. Up until the 1930s, nobody was having spine surgery unless you had been hit by a bus or had some other major kind of traumatic accident, because the chances of recovery or actually being able to walk again, were extremely poor. But in the 1940s, a couple of surgeons at Massachusetts General Hospital, discovered almost by accident that you could remove the intervertebral disc from the spine, and the person would survive. And in certain cases, the person's leg pain might relent. So having discovered that, that this, this disc could be removed safely enough, they said about doing a lot of that, what they realized was that they didn't fuse the two vertebrae together after they removed the disc, people had a lot of pain subsequently. So someone else came along and found a way to attach vertebrae of one vertebra to another vertebra. And that was the beginning of spinal fusion. And that really occurred in the 1960s and 70s. And it built from there. And Spine Care became medicalized, because it also became commercialized, there was now a way to make a bundle of money off of it. And that is really how it worked

Adam 07:03

to make money

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 07:03

to make money, you know, when we many, many listeners have probably heard of John Sarno. And when Dr. John Sarno was at the Rusk Institute and after that at New York Hospital, New York University Hospital, he he very much understood that what surgeons were doing and what interventional pain management doctors were doing giving injections that these were, in general, not benefiting typical low back pain patients. And when I say typical low back pain, I mean patients who have what's described as axial or mechanical, low back pain. There are instances of course, where spine surgery is a benefit, but it's extremely rare. And in fact, I think the most telling statistic is that about 2% of patients who walk into surgeon's offices are actually candidates for surgery. Nevermind can't nevermind exclusively candidates for surgery, we don't even have a number for that. But so when John Sarno, what went around saying that he inspired massive hostility in the back pain treatment community, his book would eventually sell over a million copies, so plenty of people were listening to him. If patients listened, then they would not have surgery and they would not have injections and a lot of money would not be captured by the what I refer to as the back pain industry cartel.

Adam 08:43

It also didn't sound believable. I remember when somebody brought to me, Sarno's book many years ago now knowing that I was a back pain sufferer. And I remember being very skeptical, because it's mind, but come on the mind body connection between back pain. You talk about in your book, the discovery that that doesn't have to be an organic problem to have pain,

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 09:04

Right. There usually isn't an organic problem.

Adam 09:08

Can you tell us a little about that? That research that you did

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 09:10

as you said, the mind body, the mind body connection, you had trouble with that idea. And a lot of people have have trouble and this is just really beginning to change. Now. A lot of because of the Cartesian understanding of the mind and the body is that they are separate and that dates back to the 1600s. But we've known for a very, very long time certainly since the early 1970s. That obviously the mind is not separate. The brain controls absolutely everything you will be doing feeling sensing with your body there. There is no separation. There's also no such thing as a psychological problem because the last time I looked there is No psyche that anybody can track down. It is a neurological issue. So changing, it's very counterintuitive for people to think that the problem is not in the tissue, not in your back, not in your hip. When you're dealing with chronic pain, the problem has really migrated to the brain. And now this message is circulating around and around and around in your system. And because of the way the brain works, and how what because circuits in the brain become stronger when they are used, the more times the circulates, the more likely it is that the pain is going to continue. So largely what we look at is how do you break the circuit? What do you do? Can you help we can't just get a pair of wire clippers and go in there and break the circuit we have to find another way. And Adam, that's something that you work very hard to do in your gym. And so to many other people. That's the second book

Adam 11:06

that's the second Yeah, I just pointed I just pulled out of my bookshelf I found did want to just saw another book that I was handed it's called the mind body. That's what I had in mind, body in my brain

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 11:14

there. They're about three or four of his books, but they all more or less say exactly the same thing.

Adam 11:19

Yeah. So I have the mind body prescription, which you're telling me is the second book that he wrote.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 11:23

Yeah, yeah.

Adam 11:24

Yeah. Yeah. So breaking that circuit would you said that we take we do partly some of that stuff

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 11:30

that's the reason that exercise is successful with back pain patients is that it ends what really is the plague of the back pain patient which is fear avoidance behavior, and catastrophizing, and guarding. Those are three factors that we know of, from basically, they all come from behavioral psychology, but they are very, very prevalent in back pain patients and people who tend in that direction are the ones who frequently end up in chronic pain. So what are those? What does that mean? Fear avoidant behavior. That means thinking, because likely, you've been told by your chiropractor, possibly by your surgeon, probably by a half a dozen other people, be careful how you lift, don't pick that up. If you don't know if it hurts, don't do it. Rest, take it easy. Watch your backs, spare your back. All of that language makes people feel that it is in fact very dangerous to pursue normal activity or even strenuous activity. And, and it's easy to see why because it hurts. So we understand pain, we understand pain to be an indication of damage, but when chronic pain hits, pain is no longer an indication of damage, it is now an indication that your brain has is not really functioning right. It is getting it is getting a message in it's sending a message, but it is wires are crossed. It is not understanding that you have healed and as a good example, which I I wasn't happy to have this happen to me, but it did happen. I burned my wrist while cooking for dinner party few couple of weeks ago. And it's really quite a sudden significant burn to the point where people who see it sort of gasp and when it happened, I thought okay, burn my wrist. Um, let's see, what do you do with a burn? Okay, they say no, look it up. Okay, don't put any ointment on it. Just put gauze on it gauze on done cook the rest of the dinner party. And I watched with great interest as it healed miraculously over the next week and a half. And at no point did I think I would die from it. Or did I think that my life would be changed and I would not be able to work or go on vacation. I didn't think I wouldn't be able to take care of my family. And I certainly didn't think that I couldn't cook the rest of that dinner party. Now, if that had been my back, all those thoughts would have prevailed, I would have thought I probably have to cancel the dinner because I really cannot move here. So it's a very different feeling we have about our spines, we feel that they are fragile. And if we can get past that with exercise, that is often step one to recovery. When I left you I had the good luck to work out here earlier in the week, which I enjoyed very much. And when I left I thought I picked up my backpack which at that point had not only my laptop, which is especially light but a couple of more or less textbooks in it, plus a pile of paper and I said to myself as I walked down 56th Street I said I should not be carrying this. I know should not be carrying this. And I thought, wait a minute, what is the matter with you? You just pumped iron for an hour.

Adam 15:06

He just wrote a whole book about the fact that you shouldn't have those thoughts.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 15:10

And I thought to myself, I'm perfectly fine carrying this thing. This is not a problem for me. And as it turned out, it really wasn't

Mike 15:19

these instincts, though I think it's they are normal for people their first impulse because it is sometimes picking up a suitcase, it's doing sometimes activities of daily living that triggers a back pain for a lot of people or something lifting something. And I think they just their instinct is I have to do less in order to not feel that pain

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 15:39

but that is wrong

Mike 15:40

Right? Exactly

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 15:41

And very frequently, what we consider everyone can always give you the inciting incident, you know, what was your injury? And, and physicians ask that question. And physical therapists too. How did you injure yourself? Well, I've had people tell me that they injured themselves picking up the newspaper off the front walk. And I said, really? I said, Have you ever done that before? Yes, I have done that every day for 26 years. But it was that one time? Well, clearly, it wasn't it is the straw that broke the camel's back. And I know as well as anyone that when back pain strikes, you do not want to not want to do anything you want to crawl into your so under your sofa with a heating pad. But you know that that isn't ever going to be the solution to your problem,

Adam 16:29

not just a heating pad, which does kind of bring me to the question I've been wanting to ask you also, I found very interesting in your research. When we deal with pain, not only do we reach for the heating pad, but we like to have a little bit of help by a little bit of medicine, possibly. So the opioid healthcare crisis is in full swing right now is getting a lot of press recently. And you discovered that a large part of this crisis has been caused really by the back pain industry.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 16:57

That is certainly true. And I wouldn't say that I discovered this necessarily, because obviously, there's been some tremendous journalism done in this area for the last 10 years. And I happened to walk into this story, just as it blew wide open, which is one of the better things that can happen to an investigative reporter. But a lot of the reporting is definitely not done by me. It was done by others. And I have, you know, brought it into the book. And, and added to it, I hope. When I began this work, in 2009, I interviewed a couple of people who happen to tell me that they told me this astounding thing they told me, you know, the opioid epidemic? And I said, Yes, you know, yeah, I know about, you know, street corner, drug sales and addicts, and, you know, teenagers and young people doing these, you know, picking prescription pharmaceuticals, out of candy bowls at parties, and, and this one scientist and physician, Andrew Kolodny, whose name is been in the media a great deal, said to me, uh ahh, he said, that's, that is part of it, but it's not most of it. Most of it is happening because physicians are writing those prescriptions. The reason they're writing those prescriptions is that they have been massively encouraged, sometimes financially, to prescribe by pharmaceutical companies. And as you can see, I mean, even today, there was something in the paper that every every state in the union is suing Purdue pharmaceuticals, and which is the manufacturer of Oxycontin, and there's no way a Purdue will be bankrupt long before they can satisfy those suits. There's absolutely no way that restitution could be made for all of those states. But the point is, is well taken that more than one company jammed this idea down primary care physicians throats and primary care physicians see tons of back pain patients and they have, they do not know what to do for them. They do not really have a good concept of physical rehab. There's almost no training on pain in a medical school education, except to become an anesthesiologist and, and drag it away.

Adam 19:27

And again, drugs again.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 19:29

Right. So I was fortunate in that I never used opioids in treating my own back pain. I had just written a book about memory and attention and what happens to it in midlife and I knew for sure that, you know, even an Aleve, affected my ability to think to a certain extent I just wasn't as sharp so and now even though those they were offered to me repeatedly and you know from 2006 to 2009, I never went there, but most people honestly do. And I remember spending some time going to see, I guess the second or the third surgeon I saw on my hunt for a solution to my own problem. And he said to me, so what kind of medicines do you take? And I said, Well, I have a thyroid condition. So I take, you know, and I started to name the drugs, the two drugs I take for my thyroid condition. I said, I also have allergies. He said, No, no, no. What kind of painkillers do you take? I said, I don't take painkillers. And he said, but how can you manage? And I said, I don't think I could manage if I took them. So that's why I don't take them. He was very surprised.

Adam 20:51

Yeah, I've always resisted it myself. I always felt was muscular there. I brought I'd ride it out, I wasn't going to start taking these these high powered drugs.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 20:59

the evidence is absolutely clear that they are not effective in the treatment of chronic back pain. They're not effective. So why bother. And people develop after they get on a high enough dose, which sort of inevitably they do, they develop what is known as opioid based hyperalgesia. And or I'm sorry, opioid induced hyperalgesia, which means now, the opioid that you are taking is actually generating your pain. And I've seen quite a few people, lower their doses is not easy for them. And they lower their doses and a great deal of their pain goes away, which comes as a great shock to them, because they thought that they needed the drugs so badly. Getting off of them is not a simple matter. Because people are afflicted, they feel like they have the flu, and they are very, very anxious, and they are nauseous. And a lot of things happen that are very disturbing. And we need a lot more programs that can treat opioid addicted chronic pain patients, because you cannot just taper them. Because if you do just taper them, they will be over, possibly overwhelmed with pain, at least for a period of time, because it is just generally painful to taper opioids. So it may have nothing to do with their actual back pain condition. But you can be assured that they will be in pain while they are tapering.

Mike 22:27

I was as I was going to comment, the health crisis part of the book, it was surprising to think about how big this event really is. But I look back on a couple of times. I had two hand surgeries back in 2007 and 2009. And I did not ask for any the painkillers nor did I need any of the painkillers. And remember, I was just looking back. They actually did they gave me a bottle of 30. They didn't ask, they just said here. They just said here's a prescription for 30 Percocet if you need them. And then I got another one a month later. And I remember I got them again from the same doctor. And I just I didn't even I wasn't asked if I was in pain or if I even needed them.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 23:02

And did you take them?

Mike 23:04

I think I took one like one day because I did I did.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 23:08

and they kept giving you the prescription

Mike 23:10

like the day the day after the surgery the day after the surgery. I took one that day. And that was it.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 23:17

But they continue to give you prescriptions even though you were not taking them

Mike 23:20

a month after on a follow up visit. I was like here's another prescription. I didn't even ask for it. I look back and I'm like thinking why did they do that? I just

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 23:28

Well, you know, this happens now very still is happening. Incredibly, it's still happening with kids who are having their wisdom teeth out. And they are you know, they sending them off with prescriptions for narcotics. And I got a call. I remember so well because it was thanks the night before Thanksgiving, at 10 o'clock at night I was here in New York. And the phone rang and it was a woman who I don't know well, but whose son went to school with mine and to high school and she said I am I read your book I'm standing in in the drugstore. I have a prescription in my hand that the local community spine surgeon just wrote for my son for 70 Vikatan. And I'm having a crisis of faith. And I said do not fill that prescription. I said there if your son is walking around which he was he definitely does not need that. And she said you know he would never ever I said if you knew how many mothers and fathers I have heard from whose kid would never ever but who isn't the child is no longer with us, then you would understand that never ever means absolutely nothing in this context. And particularly if you're dealing with a person of that age, it seems to be especially risky.

Adam 24:51

It's unbelievable to even know that's happening. It's tragic.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 24:54

It's this is a spine surgeon in my community and I was you It was all I could do not to get back to California where I live and march into his office and say, throw my book at him and say, What the hell are you thinking? And do you know that that boy did not have surgery, and he is perfectly fine. And that surgeon was giving him the Vikatan to tide him over until he had surgery two or three weeks later, which he never had.

Adam 25:25

Well, I had spine surgery in the 70s. They it wasn't like that back then. They didn't do that. For me it this is a recent This is a relatively recent thing

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 25:32

it happened in the 80s Primarily because at that time, up until up until the mid 80s, the understanding was that you did not use you did not use narcotics to treat chronic pain. You use them to treat cancer pain. And typically in hospital not, you know, not an outpatient,

Adam 25:55

You are not going home and 50 oxycontin.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 25:57

But there was such an enormous push and if read my book in the chapter called The opioid wars. I mean, it is a saga that you just cannot believe in terms of how Purdue pharma recruited a physician named Russell Portnoy to sell these drugs to primary care physicians. And it wasn't one of the most probably the most successful drug marketing effort in the history of pharmaceuticals, but look where it has.

Adam 26:27

Now, moving on to what we can do about it, which is the stuff that really excites me is, you know, we mentioned John Sarno and how he understood there was a mind body connection to this back pain. And he, let's face it, he didn't get a lot of cred from from his peers. He was basically ignored by his peers. And they were skeptical, because, again, what we talked about earlier, you know, they didn't believe the mind body connection, not to mention the fact that they felt that their their jobs might be in jeopardy if he was right. But anyway, people coming around, and now there exists these facilities called chronic pain rehabilitation programs, otherwise known as CP RPS. And you talk a great deal about these CPRPs.Tell tell us about these because that's seems to be the answer for this back pain industry.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 27:20

Well, those these types of programs are typically three weeks or four weeks, and you might be going eight hours a day, five days a week. And they are multidisciplinary or interdisciplinary programs, which means that there's a physician, often a physiatrist, sometimes surgeon on staff and psychologists and physical therapists and exercise specialists. And other sometimes there's a biofeedback specialist, there may be a Feldenkrais instructor, but it is a combined effort of all of those parties, and especially the patient who will be working her butt off during this period. And these programs are they do not make money for their facilities. So RIC, the Rehabilitation Institute of Chicago has a program and you know, the rest of Ric has to support this program because it does not pay the bills. And that is a sad, very sad comment. And I do believe that given for instance, the three papers that were just published in The Lancet, all of which you can locate on my website, which is at CJ Raman ra M I.com these three LANSA papers really substantiate the benefits of multidisciplinary care. And of course, they also rule out the benefits of surgery shots, etc.

Adam 28:54

And even they deal with the opioid addictions if somebody

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 28:58

while they yes, they some programs do some programs don't some feel that they're the real thing is to get their patients strong enough and fit enough and psychologically functional enough and then deal with the opioid problem and then others take it the other direction entirely. But I go through these programs in the book and you know, I spent time in sub with several of them and met people who had gone through them. And this is an appropriate intervention for people who have tried pretty much everything else and are not surgical candidates or do not want to be surgical candidates. And just as an aside, I hear from so many people you know, I had no other options surgery was my only option. You know, that is a problem that phrase because for surgery is the only option. Possibly if you have been hit by a bus but it is not the only option. If you are dealing with axial or mechanical back pain,

Adam 30:06

which is a called unspecified

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 30:07

unspecified, which means that you can take a you know, you can have your MRI and they can take a look at and they go, you see that that's a disc herniation. Well, you know what they're perfectly normal people with no back pain at all whose spines look just like that. In fact, pretty much everyone spine looks just like that. And and this is something that people don't recognize because they're sent for the MRI or sometimes very frequently, they demand to have an MRI their neighbors have had MRIs their colleagues have, everyone has and they want theirs too and they paid good money for that insurance coverage. And they're getting it. And when they get it, they take a look at that MRI. I've never seen one before and they flip out. Because MRIs are very unattractive. They look like bones that have been left too long in the oven. I mean, they're, they're crumbly, and they just look sick. And then with that comes the note from the radiologist, and those notes, say things like herniated disc, degenerative disc disease, protruding disc, long list, black discs, white discs, there are so many things that show up on those reports. And at one point, in the course of my research, I was contacted by a radiologist who was no longer practicing. And he said to me, do you realize that if you if, as a radiologist, you frequently work for a spine surgeon. And if you send back the report that says, Nope, we got no trouble here, they send it back to you and say find some. So they're many of the things that are noted on a radiology report are absolutely meaningless, because they are found in the general population.

Adam 32:00

So here we go again. So there's like this, there's this conflict of interest here, because that's what they're doing, you get this report back, and they're saying you need some fusion, you need some you need injections, or you need some type of surgery to relieve the pressure on the disk, they hardly ever work. But that's the automatic response to these MRIs.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 32:20

And we play into that because as patients we are really committed at from a very early age, possibly from the time you, your mommy takes you to the pediatrician, when you're two days old, we are committed to the idea that whatever is not working properly, can be fixed, it will be fixed for us, we will not have to fix it. And this this kind of commitment is so powerful for people who are struggling with back pain. And that's why they go through serial interventions, they go from one to the next to the next to the next. It's extremely common for people to tell me they've seen eight surgeons or they've seen 40 different practitioners and they keep moving and paying. Because none of this is free. Even if you have insurance, you're still paying co pays now. And

Adam 33:10

speaking of cost, what is the cost? Check into a chronic pain rehabilitation program.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 33:16

It depends a lot on what what your coverage is. If you are workers compensation patient, it may be completely paid for. If you are a person who's like me an independent contractor with basically a PPO, you're going to pay a lot more, it could be $30,000. And it could be $15,000. Insurance coverage varies dramatically from insurer to insurer. Now, do I think this is about to change? Yes, I think it already is changing because believe me, knowing what insurers knowing what they know now about how ineffective surgery and injections are and about how risky MRI is in terms of driving surgery and injections, they're not going to want to pay for that. And just spent a bunch of time with physiatrist who effectively earn their keep by giving injections. And they are mighty darn nervous because what they do for a living is now publicly recognized to not be effective. So something is going to have to give and it is always physicians who drive what insurance covers. Most people don't realize that but you know, if your Blue Cross and you're talking about back pain coverage in the greater metropolitan area, you will have a panel of surgeons and maybe you'll have some physiatrist or maybe you'll have some some rheumatologist who will say yes, this will be covered and that will be covered and this will be covered at a higher rate than that. So

Adam 35:04

therefore, let's do that.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 35:05

So let's do that. Let's do this thing. And, and yeah, I did also hear from a physiatrist, that now that spinal fusions are, they're harder to get approved. What is happening and this is just horrifying is that when one is approved, they do more levels, and they do put in more instrumentation. So they price they, they drive the price upward on a single patient, because they know the next patient might be hard to find, which is just I made me I could barely eat my lunch.

Adam 35:41

Yeah, well, you know, what I've found to be astonishing was, when given the choice, when the insurance companies given the choice to either pay out for $150,000 spine surgery, I think you used $150,000 as the average cost.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 35:57

Thats common for spinal fusion yeah

Adam 35:58

as opposed, they'll do that in a second. But they'll give you a lot of pushback, if you say I want to check into a chronic pain rehabilitation program for $45,000.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 36:10

Right, but they'll say at the moment, and as I said, is changing

Adam 36:14

something that works a lot better than spine surgery by the way

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 36:16

and is much safer, it has no long term downsides, what they'll say usually is we'll just bill that by the individual modality. So you know, for exercise, we don't actually pay for that. But physical therapy will pay $38. And for, you know, a biofeedback, we don't pay for that. So it becomes very counter to the concept of multidisciplinary training, because they don't pay for this, and they don't pay for that, and they don't pay for this. And you know, it's been a huge problem. And I'm ready to go to Washington on this. So insurance companies used to listen to the doctors when they were doing this. And now they're, they're actually putting their own brains out on they're starting to because you know, it's going to cost them more to pay out, I guess exactly. And the long term pay out is much higher, because if you do a multi level spinal fusion on a patient who's 50, and that patient never recovers, and is in has, is addicted to opioids, and has a car accident. And you know, this goes on and on. And you know, and potentially no longer works. And now he's on total disability, and therefore is receiving social security disability payments. I mean, the cost to society is enormous, and it's avoidable. But try to get somebody who hasn't been off a sofa in three years to enter a multidisciplinary program of which is going to be three weeks, eight hours a day, five days a week, and you're going to be exercising really many, many of those hours when you're not in a cognitive behavioral psychology group. It's pretty hard to get people to do it. They just have some drugs or another operation.

Adam 38:11

But as you reported, studying and visiting a lot of these programs, you've discovered that their success rate for the ones that make it through are very high,

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 38:21

very high. I mean, in the book, I've got multiple stories from the programs. But the story is from a rebuild patient Institute of Chicago, the surely what is now called the Shirley Ryan ability lab is the name of their chronic pain program. And I spent a lot of time with two women who had come out of it. And both had felt that their functional lives were over, they were going nowhere. And they were really obsessing over their pain and their lack of function. And one of them was massively distressed. If her husband went to work she she would just fall into a hole over this and the other was raising to two young adopted children in a from an from another country very challenging adoption situation. And you know, these people couldn't afford to give up. And they went through this programs and they came out very functional. One of them was so functional, she was back to skiing, black diamonds and that was so awesome. Except for on the last run of the day. She was on the you know, the little trail between the lodge and the parking lot and something went wrong and she slipped and broke her leg on the catwalk and she broke her leg and I would I would when I called her I said so how are you doing? Because I keep up with these people someone she said I was doing. I was doing mama never broken legs. Not good.

Mike 39:56

I think if I recall from all of your stories whenever you're bad has acted up. It's never been like after during a ski trip or a snowboarding trip. I mean, usually it's some some bullshit.

Adam 40:08

Like, nothing. A sneeze.

Mike 40:09

Yeah, but it's never you never come back from, you know being like really athletic and doing.

Adam 40:14

No, it actually feels better after that right? My back also feels better when I've spent the weekend skiing and stuff like that.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 40:20

Well, probably it hasn't been all that stressful unless you have a couple of kids with you, in which case, it can be very stressful

Adam 40:26

Yeah, well, you know, the thing is, I've, I didn't fall into that I am a back patient kind of mentality. I feel lucky in that respect. I just didn't maybe I'm just somebody who denies everything anyway, in my life. But but this is, this is maybe one of those cases where denial is a good thing, because I never accepted it. And there are so many people with my back pain, and I have some bad back pain at times, I don't let it ever stop me from doing things because I feel the best way to overcome it is just to do do do do not to mention the fact that I also have done my research. And for the last 20 years I've been using using and you have a whole chapter about it in your book about the MedEx machines, and, and these spinal extension machines that do such a wonderful job of isolating spine a really strengthening the spine, much better than the typical conventional method methodology out there. And you did a lot of research on that. And you spent a lot of time with Brian Nelson out in Minnesota and runs a whole practice using these medics medical machines

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 41:31

He's now retired, but he did and the practice has been purchased by an insurance provider.

Adam 41:38

That's good news,

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 41:38

it seems but I also have heard that they're not quite running the program

Adam 41:43

they're gonna they're gonna, they're gonna dilute it

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 41:45

they're gonna they've diluted it and see the key for a program like this. The very best thing you can have is a orthopedic surgeon on board. Because that person can quickly remarkably quickly separate people who are appropriate format acts are appropriate for serious weight training for that matter from those people who need to do something else first. And not everyone is ready, even when they begin to hop on a MEDEX. And those who aren't

Adam 42:21

Michael and I were just talking about this morning because there's other things that you looked at that work also not just these expensive MedEx machines that we have, but But you talked about Felton Krauss, you've talked about Stuart McGill and his program, which is very, they're they're a series of exercises that that go a long way to really relieving back pain. Right?

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 42:43

And sometimes if someone has is very deconditioned, I'm starting with the Feldenkrais program and certainly can read about that in the book, but it's basically affecting the way that the brain is understanding movements.

Adam 43:00

repatterning

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 43:01

Yes

Adam 43:01

it was my breaking that sort of that bad circuit

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 43:04

Yeah

Adam 43:04

kind of reminds me of the heart procedure like an Appalachian which also breaks a bad circuit in the heart and, you know, it's called an ablation, just kind of, you're reminding me of that, because it's a neurological connection. They didn't, that that that create a pattern that keeps circling in that bad pattern and you have to break that pattern. Right and some of these movements, the Feldon crass, the Stuart McGill, play in other words, planks, certain types of proper abdominal work. bird dogs, things like that go a long way. And then of course, doing spinal extension on a MedEx machine which really fixes the hips in place and a lot of expense goes into these machines really have you extend the spine the proper way and strengthen lumbar muscles that are otherwise ignored pretty much any other way

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 43:52

you can't strengthen them. I mean, I do think that the McGill exercises done properly do do affect those muscles Absolutely but the McGill exercises very often are not done properly. And I did them with you the other day and I've been doing those exercises for at least six years. And I would say that my trainer will find something wrong with the way I do them at least every two weeks. There's always something you know you're now dropping your right shoulder dropping your left shoulder or tilting that way

Mike 44:25

there's always a little correction that can be made and or something that could be improved upon or something that you're doing that cheated a little bit but from my experience doing those types of exercises with it's unbelievable the results you have almost immediately with some people within like the first session or within the week, two weeks I've seen 50% Almost 100% recovery

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 44:47

it's amazing and I so many people ask me about them and I've actually put on my website which is again at CJ Raman ra m i n.com. I have an right at the top of the of the homepage, I have a button that takes you straight to a video showing you those exercises because I got really tired of having to send it. Gosh, you know, guys, it makes me want to go do them right now can we go do those exercises? Man, I need to do this.

Mike 45:17

I have a text, a text message about five clients a day, like I just I did your exercise today. I'm not kidding. Because they just they need me to sort of push them into doing so even though they know they might get they work so great. But I just forget to do them. And I'm like, Why do you forget to do that they give me that much life.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 45:37

I like to complain.

Mike 45:41

We have all the time though.

Adam 45:42

But I just see, you know, you're saying this. And obviously the physical aspect of these exercises are doing something from a physiological point of view. But I can't help but think that as soon as you tell somebody, let's do this, we're going to have a solution, you have this confidence about yourself, and they trust you. And you do these things. And they're saying, Wow, I can do this. And then you get them on the MedEx machine and they can extend their back. And maybe it hurts a little bit. But they feel so much better two weeks later, always gonna have this confidence like, hey, there is hope.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 46:08

Yes

Adam 46:08

you know, and that in itself

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 46:10

I 100% agree. And I talk about that in the book that the chapter is called The back whisperer.

Adam 46:16

Right. I love that chapter

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 46:18

Everybody, the thing is, everyone has a different idea of the coach that will provide that kind of confidence. And for me, I have a trainer who's a wonderful woman I adore about five years younger.

Adam 46:35

I think I say I was

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 46:36

well you were you're really not you're kind of adorable you are kind of way that Diana, Diana is referred to in the book as the goddess of exercise

Adam 46:48

That's right

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 46:49

And she's about five years younger than I am, which is good. So she'll be around a while. And basically, she's an athlete, and tough as nails. And she can really push me without me feeling like I am endangered. I really don't feel endangered anymore. Now I don't really care what people give me. But when I was beginning and I would have a twinge here and a twinge there, when you're just beginning you need someone who's going to give you that kind of confidence. I also really like and you know, some some men don't do well working with men because they feel very competitive with men, other men can only work with men. I happen to like coaches like Brian Nelson, who was this big giant Air Force guy. And you would not say no, to Brian Nelson, nor would you ever say no to Joseph Barrett, who was also extensively interviewed in the book. And you can't be going around saying no, and you can't back out of things because they hurt. There is a world of difference between this is really hard and it hurts. And I have been stricken with nerve pain. And I think I'm going to pass out. And very few people are able to tell the difference when they're doing the exercises. So you do have to have some faith and one thing I can absolutely guarantee it is going to hurt because it hurts to sit and it hurts to walk and it hurts to sleep. So why would you think it wasn't going to hurt to do these exercises? And you know, the thing that is drilled home over and over again that is that once you've had a good evaluation and you know cancer and progressive neurological issues have been ruled out don't have an infection. You know what hurt does not mean harm. And I just spent hours and hours with my brother who is struggling currently with back pain. And I yesterday I did an hour on the topic of none of this is going to harm you. And this morning he said you know what? I realized none of this is going to harm me and I'm feeling a lot better and really crossed my palm with silver right now. $147 But he he was afraid he was really afraid and catastrophizing not to me but in his own mind about what this meant and and how it applied to aging at 55.

Adam 49:23

Well, you can understand and you this pain is bad

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 49:26

and this pain is real.

Adam 49:28

It's real and it's bad.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 49:29

And it makes it hard to think and it makes it hard to do anything. But it's to break the circuit is your goal and you may need some help in terms of cognitive behavioral therapy, which I talk about in the book in order to dispel some of your issues with fear avoidance behavior. Many people with back pain take toe walking in odd ways because they are guarding the part that hurts but Actually, they're doing nothing for the part that hurts. I mean, I've seen people put down, you know, pick up things and put them down in in ways that are far more deleterious to their spines than if they did it normally. And you do read all this about, you know, lift with the knees and not with the back wall, trying making a bed with your knees bent, you cannot do that, because you can't get close enough to the bed to do it. So many, many things that are drilled into patients about how they should lift you know, all of this is kind of nonsense. Once you are sufficiently conditioned, you know, you can I throw my bag into the overhead compartment. I not worrying about that on an aeroplane anymore. And it used to be, I would worry about it for three days, you know, how am I going to get that back up there? And being that I am five foot 10. And I look like I'm perfectly fit? No one I have yet to encounter a man of any age who wants to put my bag up there for me. And so it's a good thing that I can do it myself.

Adam 51:05

I would do it for you

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 51:06

know, you wouldn't you'd say she's super fit

Adam 51:09

She's taller than me for crying out loud.

Mike 51:11

My, my older clients were like in their 70s I don't help them off the floor. I help everybody else. You need practices. Yeah, yeah. So and we there are people actually who I work on how to do that, you know, more efficiently, where to put their arm where to turn how to do everything. So they can actually do it and hopefully develop the strength in the skill of doing

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 51:34

Which is, might be in their 70s, the most important thing you'll teach them. Sooner or later, they're going to fall on the floor, and they need to be able to get up.

Mike 51:42

Yeah, there are times when you're doing rehabilitation for your body or even exercise where it's not comfortable. And it could actually hurt a little bit. And there are times where I think those are signals that are like, Wait, you're doing something that's wrong, and maybe you're guided in the wrong way. And maybe you're guided in the right way. Like how do you know when to say that hurts, and that that hurt is bad. And that hurt is good?

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 52:04

Well, when I was working out with you, earlier in the week, I asked you a number of times, where am I supposed to feel this? What muscle groups are engaged. And I know because I've been at this, you know, working on pretty seriously for five years or seven years, maybe I'm you know, if I'm feeling this, like in some tiny muscle in my shoulder, that is probably not what we had in mind. You know, I think that I think that once people become, start slow, start really slow, start light and build up. Don't start heavy build up slowly start with what you can safely easily do. And that doesn't mean that I won't hurt, but start light and then add. And I think the place where people you know get in trouble they I think CrossFit is a place that a lot of people overdo it completely. Especially well, people go to CrossFit are typically very competitive. So it is very easy.

Adam 53:10

It's a sport. Not an exercise program.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 53:11

And they get very, very competitive and overdo it. And I did one half of one CrossFit class and I said,

Adam 53:19

Nope

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 53:19

you've got to be joking.

Mike 53:23

that's the thing. I think that's I wanted to hear you say I mean, it started right. Yeah, progressions where you start at level one, and then you go to level two, and do you feel a little bit that should be normal that you're feeling like you're working but not straining? Um, yeah, so it's, uh,

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 53:38

well, we hit one exercise towards the end of our session where I was to have moved some pulleys and nothing was happening, I was not moving them, you know, and nothing hurt, but I was not moving them. And that meant to me that I was misunderstanding what I was supposed to be doing. Because, clearly, if I can move everything else in the room, there's no reason I couldn't move that weight. I just simply didn't know what to do how to do it. So having someone to explain Oh, no, it is not supposed to be coming from that tiny joint behind your elbow. It's supposed to be coming from somewhere. And this is one reason why it's very important for people who are trying to climb out of this abyss to work with talented trainers. And how do you find that? Well, that's what everyone wants to know. And in the book, I detail what you should be looking for what kind of qualifications, what kind of personality? Because if you're working with someone who says, does it is that bothering you? Well, then stop. We'll stop lie down. Let me stretch you. Well, that is not going to work out for you. But there are definitely questions that you should be asking. And I go through these in the book and you know you cannot as a middle aged person who's not very fit. You do not want a 22 year old cowboy for a trainer who is going to treat you as if you're 22 years old and fit. And that happens a lot. It happens to people all the time I had somebody throw a medicine ball at me. There was absolutely no possibility I could catch that thing. Yeah. But, you know, I guess he thought that would be fun.

Mike 55:22

Yeah, there's it's definitely the answer is not to stop. But it's to find the right progression at the right level for the person. In your blog, I loved when you commented on acute pain, the first thing to do is take a walk, be mobile. And the thing is, I'm I've always been a believer that like mobility is what you know, you know, I think that's one of our big problems is over. So many people, we don't as trainers, but a lot of people are just find themselves in their life and in their job just to immobile.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 55:50

That's right, anybody can strike anywhere. Because, you know, my brother is very athletic. And he lives to exercise he truly does. I mean, everything else he does, he does between between periods of exercise. And yet he is really dealing with serious back pain right now. Because for all his exercise and all his sports, he never really built the right musculature for life. And so you know, he can hit the hell out of a tennis ball, but his spine is really not operating properly currently. And we have to do something, you know, some things about that. And it's very hard for someone who has been really serious athlete for his entire life to get that into his mind.

Adam 56:38

Well, he's lucky he has you as a sister that did all this work

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 56:40

you better check with him. How lucky he is feeling

Mike 56:44

I got to hear about this back pain

Adam 56:47

from my younger sister for crying out loud. No older, I'm older maybe will listen to you. Alright, so we have to we have to read we're running out of time we have to write Are there any concluding comments you'd like to make before we sign off?

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 57:00

Well, I think that we have to really think about and talk to patients about changing the chip and converting from a, okay, I'll do this exercise, but I'm still looking for someone who's going to fix me. And I am undergoing numerous interventions while I'm exercising, I'm not going to really be very serious about exercising, because I really still believe that there is someone out there who can fix me to considering that the only person who is going to make a difference here will be you yourself. And you're probably wasting time and money running from intervention to intervention.

Mike 57:45

The efficacy of exercise

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 57:47

has been now clearly shown, clearly shown you may need some psychological help because a lot of things spiral when you suffer from chronic back pain. I mean, there are plenty of people whose marriages are a wreck. Now whether they are wreck because of the back pain or the back pain the or the marriages have caused the that's another question. But there's sometimes other help is needed and you shouldn't be afraid to get it. Because sometimes that is the key to resolving the problem.

Adam 58:20

Well, the book is crooked Outwitting the back pain industry and getting on the road to recovery by Catherine Jacobsen Raman,

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 58:28

and it's now out in paperback. You can also download the Kindle version. And if you really want to listen to me for 13 hours, you can get the audiobook from Audible or from Amazon.

Adam 58:43

Well, thank you so much for joining us. It was a real pleasure.

Cathryn Jakobson Ramin 58:46

Thank you.

Tim Edwards 58:49

Special thanks to Katherine Jacobson, Raman, author of crooked Outwitting the back pain industry and getting on the road to recovery. Now, as I mentioned at the top of the show, and as you just heard, Catherine mentioned herself, her audio book is available in audible, and you can download it for free just by clicking the link in the show notes to audible trial.com forward slash inbound, sign up for a free 30 day membership trial and download Katherine's book, crooked Outwitting the back pain industry and getting on the road to recovery. If you decide to cancel your membership for any reason, you get to keep her book Simple as that. And while you're in there, you can pick up additional audio books from other guests that we've had on the show, and you'll enjoy discounts of up to 30% Just by being an audible member. Now getting back to the workout if you haven't tried the power of 10 workout for yourself, What in the world are you waiting for? Click on over to the inform fitness website that's informfitness.com. There you'll find a free slow motion high intensity strength training workout waiting for you click the Try us Free button right there at the top of the homepage, fill out the form that pops up and pick your location. then you can experience free full body workout that you will complete in just 20 to 30 minutes. Thanks again for listening. And until next time for Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers of inform fitness. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting Network.

View Details

“There are three pillars to living a healthy and balanced life. Exercise - Nutrition - Rest & Recovery” - Adam Zickerman
Board-certified Head and Neck Surgeon and Transcendental Meditation Instructor Dr. Benjamin Asher join Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers to discuss the value of rest and recovery through mindfulness and meditation.
http://benjaminashermd.com
Mindfulness Resources:
Learn to meditate with our free basics pack, a 10-day beginner’s course that guides you through the essentials of meditation and mindfulness. It’ll give you a solid foundation to build your practice on.
www.headspace.com/headspace-meditation-app
Dr. Richard Brown Breathing Workshops- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpr89Z1r6Lo
http://www.breath-body-mind.com

49 Meditation 101 with Benjamin F. Asher, MD Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS

meditation, people, asher, mantra, meditation practice, doctor, tm, practice, inform, feel, transcendental meditation, blood pressure, energy, fitness, mdma, totally, body, meditate, creating, stress

SPEAKERS

Dr. Asher, Tim Edwards, Mike, Adam

Dr. Asher 00:06

There is a large body of research out there looking at all aspects of the way meditation affects the physiology, what it does to the brainwaves how brainwaves become more coherent, how blood pressure goes down, heart rate goes down, blood pressure goes down. And this is actually across all types of meditation for you to do. TM or mindfulness based practice. There are studies that look at meditation in attention deficit disorder, and showing that it improves that. And then there are all kinds of quality of life studies showing that people who meditate tend to be happier, live longer lives, and just feel more connected to themselves.

Tim Edwards 00:50

This is episode number 49 of the inform fitness podcast. What's up inform nation I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting network and a client of inform fitness. Can you believe we are knocking on the door of 50 total episodes for this podcast? Wow, thank you very much for your continued support of this show and our sponsors. Now, over the past year and a half or so, Adam Zckerman the founder of inform fitness and Mike Rogers, the general manager of the inform fitness location there in Manhattan, along with a wide array of guests have discussed in great length the importance of building muscle in a safe manner, so that you can live the kind of life you want to live. We also have talked in great length, about the value of adopting a nutritional plan that supports the building of that muscle and burning fat to Supercharge Your Metabolism. Well, today, we will be drilling down into component or pillar number three, to live a healthy and balanced life, rest and recovery. As you well know your body needs to recoup and heal following your 20 to 30 minute high intensity workout at inform fitness. Well your mind also deserves an opportunity to be rejuvenated through proper sleep and mindfulness. So today, we are welcoming Dr. Benjamin Asher, who is based out of New York City, and is a board certified head and neck surgeon and a transcendental meditation instructor, Dr. Asher will be providing us with an easy to understand conversation regarding mindfulness and meditation, he will break down the value of meditation, the various meditation methods and how to get started on a path of rest, recovery and mindfulness.

Adam 02:33

Okay, welcome to the program, we have a really good show today we have with us, Dr. Benjamin Asher, he's a holistic, ear nose and throat doctor. But he's also a client of inform fitness. And we've known Mike and I have known him for many years as a client. And we've had many, many discussions about very interesting things. He's a fascinating man, and a great doctor, he, obviously a Western trained doctor, a medical doctor in United States in New York, but he's also a holistic, he also looks at the problems in modern medicine. And he deals with them. And he approaches medicine from both Eastern philosophy and modern Western philosophy, to really find the right balance to help the patient because there's a lot of problems in modern medicine, as we know, it's really a business, it's run like a business, sometimes the business goals of a medical practice, are not exactly congruent with the goals of the patient. And Dr. Asher is well aware of that. And he's dealt with in his practice. He's also a meditation expert. And that's kind of why he's here with us today to talk about meditation. And it's nice to hear about meditation from a medically trained doctor, because it's, it's unusual. So a lot of medically trained doctors, they poopoo Eastern medicine. And, you know, that's not cool either. But on the other hand, there's all these gurus out there that don't know anything about medicine. And they're acting as doctors and pushing just the Eastern philosophy. And that's also can be dangerous. A lot of people, for example, I know have go through these holistic treatments when diagnosed with stage four metastatic cancer. And they think that getting IVs of vitamin C and B 12. And meditating is going to cure them of their metastatic cancer. And that's not necessarily the right thing, either. So without further ado, let's bring on Dr. Asher, welcome to the show, Dr. Asher.

Dr. Asher 04:21

Hi, Adam, thank you very much for having me. Hi, Mike, I appreciate you folks participating in this conversation, which I think it's a really important topic for people and it's a very fundamental basis for overall well being.

Adam 04:35

Alright, so let me ask a question first. How did you become interested in meditation and stress reduction? Being a medically Western trained doctor?

Dr. Asher 04:44

Well, I actually started meditating way before I went to medical school. And my interest in going to medical school actually was I thought at the time that I felt so strongly about meditation practice that I felt that if I could be a doctor, I could get more people into interested in having a meditation practice. So I started actually doing meditation when I was 16 years old. And once I started college, I started doing Transcendental Meditation and I became a teacher of Transcendental Meditation. And after that, I've been doing all types of meditation practices and have studied many forms. And so when I people talk to me about meditation, I don't just tell them to do one type. I try to figure out what kind of meditation works best for different types of people and what they seem to like,

Adam 05:34

well, that's interesting. Yeah, I do. I do know, there are lots of different types of meditation. And that's, it's interesting that you help somebody given that personality and whatever, whatever, whatever else makes them up, in your opinion, will decide what meditation is set them up with. But before we get into the different types of meditation, I was wondering, like, maybe you can you talked about stress and relieving stress, and why should we be so concerned about stress? In general

Dr. Asher 05:58

if you look at the list of illnesses that people are having in our society, at least the top 10 are somewhat stress related, and the elevated stress levels just cause they, it wreaks havoc on the on the body. Elevated cortisol levels, promote diabetes, they promote heart disease, hypertension, stroke, reducing immune function. So living and not dealing with stress has a significantly adverse impact on our health and well being. So that's just one aspect of it, not to mention, that if we're chronically living in a state of anxiety, and fear, or depression, we're not leading a very happy life.

Mike 06:48

Dr. Asher, what exactly does meditation do?

Dr. Asher 06:52

Well, there is a large body of research out there looking at all aspects of the way meditation affects the physiology, what it does to the brainwaves, how brainwaves become more coherent, how blood pressure goes down, heart rate goes down, and blood pressure goes down. And this is actually across all types of meditation, whether you do TM, or mindfulness based practice. There are studies that look at the meditation in attention deficit disorder, and showing that improves that there's that and then there are all kinds of quality of life studies showing that people who meditate tend to be happier, live longer lives, and just feel more connected to themselves. So it's across the board, if you're wanting to do one thing that's going to really give you the most bang for your buck for your health, it's actually something really worthwhile,

Adam 07:46

you know, I had you on the show, because this speaks to one of the pillars of our basic philosophy of my company, exercise, rest and nutrition. I mean, those are the three pillars that I like to point out for really a good, healthy, balanced life, and you can't have one without the other, you need all three. And when I talk about pillar number three rest in my book, it's not just about getting enough sleep, which of course is important, but it goes way beyond, you know, getting sleep, it's it's what we were just talking about dealing with stress. And when I use the word rest, it means a lot more again than sleep. They're all types of rest, your speak a little bit about the different types of rest that there are.

Dr. Asher 08:27

absolutely, so there are, there are different stages of sleep, there's REM sleep, and you know, different levels of sleep and how restful sleep becomes and then each of those states of sleep have a physiological signature. And the same thing, in a meditation practice, there is actually a physiological signature of that, which is that the minds awake, and the body is in a deep state of rest. So it's, it allows and affords the body a different type of opportunity of rest for it to relieve itself with different kinds of issues. Interestingly, a new development, which I just recently learned about is something called the glymphatic system, the glymphatic system is actually the lymphatic system of the brain. And it's how the brain detoxifies, and the brain actually detoxifies in sleep, the brain actually detoxifies through the nose and sinuses. But it's important that we get the reason why I'm bringing it up is that the rest that we get in sleep and in meditation actually helps clear our brains of toxins. So it's a very important thing to get. And you can't overemphasize that.

Mike 09:47

Dr. Asher, what are the types of meditation?

Dr. Asher 09:49

so there are many types of meditation but you can kind of break them down into a few broad categories. There are the mindfulness type meditations. Like headspace, the app headspace, Jon Kabat Zinn's Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction, Zen meditation or Buddhist meditation called Vipassana. And basically those practices are often associated with being aware of the breath, and allowing the mind to just be and do what it's doing, without judging it, and just being present in the present moment. And it's very relaxing, it really trains us to be more present. And that ability to be more in the present moment takes us out of being in future think, which is what is a major cause of anxiety

Adam 10:49

future think

Dr. Asher 10:50

being totally being in the moment. And if you really, actually, you could actually look at people that do intense activities like rock climbing, and it's actually a type of mindfulness practice. Because if you're, you know, rock climbing, you really have to be totally present. Because you can't make can't afford to make mistakes. It's really just one thing after the other ones step by step by step,

Mike 11:14

I can imagine with performance of any kind, even if it's like public speaking, or something physical, I feel like you know, when you were talking about rest, and the benefits of getting proper rest, and sleep, and, you know, Adam was going into the pillar, but I was going into the idea of performance, because I've been practicing meditation, at times more consistent than others, you know, in my life, but the times when I feel that I'm doing it, when I am more consistent, I'm finding that I'm stress managing is better. My golf game is better. And and this does happen sometimes by sitting quietly in a chair. But it also sometimes happens while I'm quietly on my bicycle in the morning, you know, I'm saying when nothing else is going on

Dr. Asher 11:56

right. And even the practice of the intense workout in in in your center is actually can be, almost a meditative practice, because it's you in the moment and you're working in the moment of what you're doing. And

Adam 12:09

yeah, I actually have a line that I always asked my clients and see if they're, if they really get what we're doing. And I say, so what do you think the most important repetition of the set is? Usually say, the last one, or the first one, whatever? And I'll say, No, it's the one you're doing,

Dr. Asher 12:23

right? So it's totally being present in what you're doing. So the meditation practice is a setup for being more mindful in any of those moments.

Adam 12:31

And that's that one type of meditation practice then there are other types of meditation.

Dr. Asher 12:35

So other types of meditations, which which come from India, mostly are using a mantra, which is some sound, usually a Sanskrit word, which quiets the mind down. Transcendental Meditation is one of those, it is very effective. I mean, transcendental meditation, Vedic meditation, there's another various offshoots of that, or Herbert Benson did the, where you meditate on the word, one, using Word and then the Christian centering practice, which is also like a mantra where you actually center on a prayer, it's contemplation, but it doesn't have to be contemplation, it can just be not really worrying about the meaning, but just the sound value, which quiets the mind

Mike 13:19

I was just thinking about something I haven't I love yoga, I just haven't been able to find time to do it recently. But one of the things I absolutely loved if I break down all the elements, I think about the OM, you know, and what is going on with the word. om, I was wondering, how just Do you have any idea? Why did they choose that? Where's that come from? And why is that feel, I mean, you feel like the vibration of the word, and it's this calming effect. It happens when you say it. And I'm just wondering, I don't know if I'm digressing or going in a different direction. But I was just curious about that.

Adam 13:52

That's a mantra, right?

Dr. Asher 13:53

It is a mantra, and it has a definite value of vibration. So the way you look at the vibrational value of the mantras are as they have a way of in training the physiology. So you can train the brainwaves with the mantra, and that has an effect. So om has a specific effect, and has an effect on calming the body down in a certain kind of way.

Mike 14:15

Are you saying that other mon like mantras, some of these other words, they have like a vibrational value as well? Or is

Dr. Asher 14:22

they all have, they all have some vibrational value and they all have different vibrational values. So that creates some sort of other energetic so some mantras are more are settling in different ways and can create different influences. So you could have you could

Adam 14:41

is it like a diet where you need to have all the different nutrients and you have to try all these different vibrations or can you just pick a vibration and go with it?

Dr. Asher 14:49

I think you can. You know, I think it's complicated. You can do it, you can pick the mantra that you want. But then on the other hand, there are people that use different mantras. For different,

Mike 15:00

what would you say Dr. Asher? Like step step one would be like I think I think you said before, but you say like, before everything focusing on the breath, or, or listening to the breath or attention to the breath. Is that would you say that that's step one? If you're going to just sort of start today and go home and or is there some greater instruction that you need to sort of have when you say, I want to only try this out for five minutes today?

Dr. Asher 15:28

Well, I am, I actually think that's a great suggestion. And there is a breathing technique, which Dr. Richard Brown, who's a psychiatrist here in New York has been teaching for a long time. It's called coherent breathing. And basically, you breathe in for six seconds, you breathe out for six seconds in for six seconds out for six seconds. And he has a if you go on, I think he has a website, you can actually go on and get a little timer, there's a little bell that rings every six seconds, so you can actually time your breath. And Dr. Brown has taken this technique and gone into totally war torn countries where people have just been exposed to enormous amounts of trauma. And in a matter of a half an hour, taken these people who were in absolute total dire straits. And just teaching this coherent breathing technique has created an enormous amount of positivity in the environment made these people feel much better. So breathing is a very powerful tool. And this particular breathing technique works very well. And it's very simple to learn.

Adam 16:37

So when you have you said before, that when you have a patient coming into your practice, after you do your your intake, you make a decision on how to guide them in this,

Dr. Asher 16:48

I sort of looked to people and and see where what it what it feels like going on. So people that have had a lot of trauma in their lives. People that have PTSD, I have found that like the the mantra technique where you just focus on the mantra or think the mantra actually tends to create a bit of a depersonalization experience, which is uncomfortable for people that have had trauma in their lives. So I recommend for those people specifically, they should do a mindfulness based practice. I think that people who are really, they cannot settle down at all, there are some breathing practices, I particularly like there's one called a Nanda mandola, which you can either get on Spotify, there's a Spotify playlist, or you can do it on YouTube, which is a rapid breathing technique, which moves a lot of energy. It's very helpful for people, it reduces stress, and it sort of is energizing and makes you more awake and alert. So people that are having lots of issues with being overly fatigued, the biggest problem is, is that people don't want to sit down and meditate. I mean, that's really the reason why people don't do it is people don't want to they, they would much rather be distracted in their lives. So what comes up is people sit down to meditate and all the things that they think they need to do come up. And so then they're uncomfortable, or all the things they wish they've done in their lives come up or all those regrets or something that

Adam 18:18

you're saying the mantra takes you away from all those thoughts.

Dr. Asher 18:20

The mantra can do that. And so the TM technique allows gives people specific instructions about how to deal with those kinds of thoughts

Adam 18:28

TM, you mean, trans

Dr. Asher 18:29

Transcendental meditation right

Adam 18:31

How is it different from let's say, other mantra based, probably not

Dr. Asher 18:35

all that different. If you want to know the truth, to learn TM, you need to go take a transcendental meditation course from a trained TM teacher, get the mantra that the TM people prescribe for you. And then they give you a course and explain you how to use the mantra. And that's, basically they have a prescribed way of doing it. And they do the same for everybody. It's very systematic. There are other techniques where you learn mantras, and you can use them. They're used the same way. So the Transcendental Meditation mantra is one where you're not concentrating. So it's not a concentration technique. It's a way of thinking a mantra without concentrating on it. And other techniques of meditation do the same thing.

Mike 19:17

What about like just walking, if you don't have the ability, or that or the patience to sit still, for what however long? What's going on physiologically with an activity, a calming activity, like walking?

Dr. Asher 19:30

I totally think that's a perfectly great meditation. I mean Thich Nhat Hanh, who is one of the great Buddhist meditation teachers has a whole walking meditation practice that you can do. And there's no reason why walking can be a perfect meditation. And there are all kinds of movement meditations like Tai Chi and Qi Gong, where you're doing that and moving an enormous amount of energy and can be very relaxing and Tai Chi is one of the great things to do if you have a balanced disturbance, so people that have chronic disequilibrium doing tai chi, not only moves energy, but actually helps restore the vestibular system and help you with creating more physical balance. So I think that that's an important point you bring up Mike, which is that meditation doesn't have to be, you know, the sitting practice where you're, you know, sitting there with your eyes closed, you can do any number of things, where you're just creating more mindfulness, and having a calming effect,

Mike 20:31

I subscribe to using words like, like energy, like when you're talking about moving energy and stuff like that. I somehow believe it, I feel it. How do you explain it from a medical science point of view? When you're when you're, you know, using words like that? I mean, I, they communicate to me, but sometimes I feel like there's a barrier, like Adam, for example, like, I think Adam is a barrier with words like that sometimes, you know, Is that referring to something specific medically, or something that's going on physiologically in the body? Or is there something that is more spiritual that you're talking about? I guess that's what I'm,

Dr. Asher 21:07

well, that's a it's a, it's a fantastic question. There are multiple levels of that question. Because really what human bodies are or what living systems are, are energy systems. So you can look at it from any number of levels. So you can look at it just from the fact that what's going on in the body all the time, is there's, there are these chemical processes that are creating electrical impulses, that's our whole nervous system. It's all chemistry and electricity. So you can measure all that that's actually a measurable energetic, but then you do move into sort of, if you talk about the energy systems of traditional Chinese medicine in the meridians, well, that's not something that you can sit down. And like, it's not as measurable but it's very real. And you know, it's real, because you can do surgery on people with acupuncture, and they don't feel pain. So the the, the acupuncture, whatever it's doing is having an effect on the energy system. So there's that. And then there's this whole element of what people experience if you're doing an intense breathing practice with some sort of yogic breathing, and then you feel an enormous surge of energy in your body. Like, that's energy, that's some experience. Sexual Energy is an experience, these are all experiences people have, that are sort of in an in an energy form. So it isn't really, it isn't really esoteric, but it is esoteric, because when you when you peel away the layers, you can actually, if you're from a meditation perspective, you can actually go to the place where all you are experiencing is yourself as energy enough. And that's a real experience.

Mike 23:07

Yeah, it is. It's interesting, like just thinking about like the how people change when, say, they're in a bad mood, and they hear a funny joke like, and how, like, their body changed their face. Like they actually, you feel better when you're just laughing. I don't know if you're distracted, because you're laughing, or something actually changed or like when you're if you're not feeling well, and someone gives you a hug or something like that, and how what, how physiologically, what's going on when those little things change in your body? You know?

Dr. Asher 23:33

That's actually a really good question. Good point, if you can even take that on a more macro level, and look at it from the perspective of, of what's going on in a room. If you walk into a room, and two people have had a fight. And you didn't hear anything about the fight, but you walk into the room, and you feel the energy in the room. There's something there, it's palpable, right. Whereas if you walk into a room and the room is filled, you're you know, filled with loving energy, you can feel that there's something that is within the human radar experience of which is not necessarily measurable, although there are

Adam 24:12

is it really energy that you're feeling in a case like that, or is it really just people's body language that you're noticing without realizing it No, you actually, I'm certain that I could find you studies that actually look at that particular piece and show that people actually have an experience and are able to define what's going on. And there's a guy named Edward Tiller, who is a physicist who's done an enormous amount of measurements of energy in rooms, after people doing all kinds of meditation practices is found all these different things that you can, you can measure based on what's going on, and the energy and the people in the room. He was a physicist at Stanford University for a number of years. And he's done A lot of research in this area is very, I mean, it's like very complicated math equations. It's not easy to read. But he's, he's kind of been the Pioneer. I think in looking in that area. So doc, let me ask your question if somebody is not in New York City, and they can't come to see you. But if you are New York City, by the way, you have to go see him. But if you're not in New York City, how does someone decide how to choose a meditation practice?

Dr. Asher 25:31

If you want to do your own research, I'd look up different types of practices, look up mindfulness practice, look up Transcendental Meditation, look up Vedic meditation, look up Kriya Yoga in different kinds of things, and sort of see what there is, and then see what speaks to you. And if something seems to inspire you, I'd pick that

Adam 25:48

like, what are the some of the things that's just considered like the ease of fitting into their lifestyle? Or if they have any history of trauma, like you're talking about?

Dr. Asher 25:55

Exactly. So you want to pick something that you're going to be able to do? So I one of the things that I recommend a lot of people is Headspace. Because it's an app, you can download it.

Adam 26:07

That's what I use, actually, I was just start I just started using Headspace.

Dr. Asher 26:11

Right. So I mean, people seem to like it a lot. And it helps. It starts with a with a mindfulness practice, and it develops over time. So that's a that's a simple thing to do. There are, you know, many books out there is a book, an old book by Lawrence LeShan, and called how to meditate. And depending, you can go to, you know, meditation instruction, many hospitals have Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction, instruction for patients, you know, and then in a lot of cities, there's transcendental meditation centers, you can go there,

Adam 26:46

you find, do you find meditation to be a time to substitute for certain drugs that are prescribed for to de stress or depression, or, I don't know, high blood pressure,

Dr. Asher 26:57

there's actually a solid body of research on Transcendental Meditation and hypertension. And then getting people off antihypertensive medications. You know, the mindfulness based stress reduction in in the field of psychiatry is very, very big and getting people off medications,

Adam 27:14

we got to be careful with that man, I'd hate to go to like a meditative trend, let's say go to a TM specialist, right. But he's not a doctor, in your sense of the word. And he tells you, yeah, we're gonna do this, you know, TM, and after about six weeks, you can start getting off your blood pressure.

Dr. Asher 27:28

But why nobody would do that, Adam, I mean, that's not. That's not how it works.

Adam 27:32

But I would want to do this with somebody like you who knows both, is my point,

Dr. Asher 27:37

well you don't need to go to a doctor to teach you to meditate, you can go to meditate, you can, if you're trying to lower your blood pressure, you go learn how to meditate, go back to your blood doctor and get your blood pressure checked. I mean, that's totally, you don't have to have the doctor

Adam 27:40

but if you're on blood pressure medication while you're doing yoga you don't know, which is causing the low blood pressure, the medication or the yoga, or the medication or the meditation, you know, like if you're on both?

Dr. Asher 27:58

Well, no, you would know

Adam 28:00

In other words, I'm just saying like, you know, you're doing this meditation for a while you have high blood pressure, you're taking some kind of blood pressure medication. But, now you're doing this meditation, and you're doing it for a while and you're feeling really good. Is there a way of weaning yourself off the medication to see if the blood pressure starts creeping up again? I mean, how does that work? How do you know somebody can come off the blood pressure medication,

Dr. Asher 28:20

I mean, that's up between the person and their doctor. So you basically would decide that you know what a person's blood pressure was, before they started their practice, then if they're meditating, and it turns out that their blood pressure is really abnormally low, then you might want to wean them off blood pressure medication, they may be just taking too much. I mean, it's a it's an individual thing. It's not something you can do as a cookbook, just sort of see how it works.

Mike 28:47

Did you find a lot of doctors though, would like say, like, someone listened to this podcast, they don't have a holistic doctor. They sampled doing meditation for a few weeks, and you know, then approached a doctor or whatever, let's say a couple months, feel like maybe there was an effect to the meditation. You approach your doctor and say, Hey, listen, I've been doing this, I listen to this holistic doctor made a lot of sense to me, I gave it a shot. I'd like to give it a give it a try. I think I want to try it weaning myself off blood pressure medication. What do you think? And what do you think most doctors are going? I mean?

Adam 29:25

It's good question.

Dr. Asher 29:26

I don't know. I mean, really, I think I think the answer to that question is totally and completely variable. Some doctors know, some doctors would say great, you know, I think it's all about what the how the doctor is looking at the patient and and what their belief system is so

Mike 29:44

right

Dr. Asher 29:44

what I what that tells me more is that what is the patient's relationship to their doctor, and if they pick the right doctor for themselves, right, you want to go to doctor who supports you and whatever it is, that you feel is important for your health.

Adam 29:59

That makes sense

Mike 30:00

Yeah

Adam 30:00

Doctor, I listened to a talk that you gave at a convention, forgive me for not remembering which convention it was. But you were talking about the modern medicine, modern paradigm, and how it's set up. And you talk about how it's built on fear and traumatic experiences, that illness is looked at as a punishment, that they're really focusing on the disease, it's you against your disease, it's you against your cancer, it's you're against your blood pressure. And you said, that's not really the way medicine should be looking at things, I found that to be really interesting discussion. Basically, what you're saying that we see ourselves, our bodies disconnected from the whole is something that you said

Dr. Asher 30:01

I did say that

Adam 30:28

And you also, I don't know if this is related. But you also said during this talk that this idea of people saying, you know, let it go, you know, the expression, let it go, which is why I think some people falsely think is what meditation is about letting go. And you disagreed with that. So I was wondering if you can speak to that a little bit before we before we end this.

Dr. Asher 31:00

So I think that one of the biggest problems that that people run into, and this does happen and in meditation practices is that you something comes up and something difficult comes up and people just keep on telling Well, you just have to let it go, you have to let it go. You have to let it go. And people can't let things go. Because it something keeps on coming up. Because there's some process that needs to happen for them, whatever it is, that keeps coming up to be resolved in some kind of way. There's some some either emotional resolution, some energetic resolution, some way we have to be open to some experience. So the idea that you should just let something go doesn't really work. So people are continually frustrated, because they feel like they're, they're doing something wrong, because they can't let certain feelings go. That's what I'm saying in that moment.

Adam 31:57

So what do you do when you're faced with something like that, instead of letting go, which is kind of like a jargon esque, meaningless kind of statement, actually.

Dr. Asher 32:06

Right? It's sort of a larger conversation. But when people are confronted with really difficult challenging kinds of things, I tell people to allow themselves to make space for the whatever is going on, to give expression to whatever the feelings are, or whatever is happening. You know, it's just allowing things to come up. Because it's all information. I sort of look at whatever is coming up in us through us as information, it's informing us about ourselves, what's going on inside ourselves. So being open minded, having a sense of inquiry, having a sense that, Oh, it's okay to feel to know what's going on, and allowing whatever it is to be present. Even if it's a really difficult experience, painful experience. This is a place where you actually have to sort of dive deep into your heart and open your heart up to yourself to allow yourself to have the experience because people don't want to look at the painful experiences. That's why in the world of post traumatic stress disorder, the biggest thing to be happening right now is are the is a clinical trial in MDMA, which is the street drug ecstasy, but there, it's gonna, it's in phase three clinical trials. And that is a medicine that allows the heart to open up called an pathogen. And people that have PTSD, they can't face whatever the problem, whatever the trauma is, they can't keep look, they can't look at it, because it's just so traumatic. And this medicine allows your heart to expand so that you can look at this with a loving space and two guided MDMA treatments is curative for PTSD in about 80% of people now, and I've watched videos of Iraq war veterans who are in totally in terrible shape, rageaholics, do these PTS that do the MDMA therapy and it's like, Oh, my God, unbelievable, what they're able to uncover and there are only certain trained therapists and it's only going to be used in these very, very specific trained therapy sessions.

Adam 34:11

Alright, thank you very much, Doc. It was really nice. We just scratched the surface. You know, I mean, there's so much to this, go to Dr. Asher's website. It's BenjaminAsher md.com. He has some articles there. He has a whole bunch of information on all kinds of things. Thanks, doc.

Tim Edwards 34:29

We are really grateful to Dr. Benjamin Asher for joining us here on the inform fitness podcast. Dr. Asher mentioned earlier in the episode that a great way to get started on your own mindfulness path is to download the app Headspace so we're going to include a link to Headspace in the show notes. Dr. Asher also recommended a book for those that are interested in learning how to meditate. The book is called how to meditate. The book is written by Dr. Lawrence LaShawn. Now if you'd like to download the audio book for free, simply click The link in the show notes to audible trial.com, forward slash inbound, sign up for a free 30 day membership trial and download the book, how to meditate or really any book you like. They have over 180,000 titles to choose from. If you decide to cancel your membership for any reason, you keep the book. It's that simple. And while you're in there, you can pick up audio books from other guests that we've had on the inform fitness podcast, and you'll enjoy discounts of up to 30% Just by being an audible member. Again, that's Audible trial.com forward slash inbound to receive your free audiobook from Audible. Well, we've given you a free audio book, how about a free power of 10 workout, then click on over to the inform fitness website that's informfitness.com Of course and the link will be in the show notes. Once you're at the webpage, you'll find a free slow motion high intensity workout waiting for you. Just click the Try it free button right there on the homepage. Fill out the form, pick your location and experience a free full body workout that you will complete in just about 20 to 30 minutes. Hey, thanks so much for listening and we invite you to join us for the Big Five Oh, next time. It's episode 50. Until then, for Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers of inform fitness. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting Network.

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Exercise/Recovery/Nutrition. The three pillars necessary to build muscle, burn fat, and to supercharge your metabolism. Episode 48 of the InForm Fitness Podcast focuses on nutrition.
Adam Zickerman is joined by celebrity chef, Judson Todd Allen who presents the diet that helped him lose 160 pounds, featuring 60 guilt-free recipes packed with powerhouse flavor created especially for The Spice Diet.
Chef Judson's diet plan is heaven for food lovers. Using the principles of food science, he offers a way to eat that feels indulgent as it satisfies food cravings and reduces appetite. His program will not only help listeners break their addiction to unhealthy foods without feeling deprived but will also inspire them to get into the kitchen to prepare irresistible, healthy meals.
The Spice Diet provides a full weight-loss program that includes meal plans, creative spice blends, easy-to-prepare recipes, and a heaping helping of motivation.
https://judsontoddallen.com
https://www.facebook.com/TheSpiceDiet/
https://www.instagram.com/thespicediet/

Adam Zickerman - Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen For a FREE 20-Minute strength training full-body workout and to find an Inform Fitness location nearest you, please visit http://bit.ly/Podcast_FreeWorkout

48 Fire Up Your Metabolism With The Spice Diet Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

spices, book, chef, people, flavor, tumeric, salt, cravings, food, salty, chicago, flavor profile, culinary, crave, inform, vinegars, fitness, sweet, recipe, audible

SPEAKERS

Chef Judson, Tim Edwards, Adam

Tim Edwards 00:05

Hey inform nation welcome in to episode number 48 of the inform fitness Podcast. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting network and a client of inform fitness. We'll be joined in a minute with the star of the show New York Times bestselling author and the founder of inform fitness. Adam Zickerman. Hey, real quick, we are very excited to welcome a new sponsor to the inform fitness podcast. You know, over the past 47 episodes, we have interviewed several authors with books that contain content to help educate you in the science and mindset necessary to burn fat, build muscle and to supercharge metabolism. You might remember our episodes with Gretchen Rubin, Dr. Sylvia Tara and Dr. Martin Gibala. Well, all of those authors, including our guest, in this episode, narrate their books and are all available at Audible. Audible is a subsidiary of Amazon and the world's largest producer of digital audio books. So if you enjoy consuming your content through your ears, much like you do with this podcast, Audible is perfect for you. Tell you what, we have a special offer for you inform nation. How about a free audio book, here's what you do, simply click the link in the show notes to audibletrial.com forward slash inbound, sign up for a free 30 day membership trial and download any audio book for free. Now if you decide to cancel your membership for any reason, you get to keep the book. Simple as that you have nothing to lose. A good choice for that first free audiobook would be the one penned and voiced by today's guest, Chef Judson Allen chef Judson's book titled The spice diet includes strategies and recipes that support the power of 10 Nutrition protocol as mentioned in Adams book, power of 10, the once a week slow motion fitness revolution. And when one side note about chef Judson's audio book, it comes with a downloadable PDF with all the necessary spices, charts and recipes to fire up your metabolism. Okay, let's get to it. Here's Adam Zickerman and our guest today, he calls himself the flavor architect, Chef Judson Allen.

Adam 02:16

Hello, everybody. Welcome to the show. We have a great guest today. I'm really excited about this. We have with us today, Chef Judson, Todd Allen, he's the author of the spice diet. The name of the book is called the spice diet. And the subtitle is use powerhouse flavor to fight cravings and win the weight loss battle. Full disclosure. First of all, my publisher of my book power of 10 was working with Chef Judson and he and Chef Judson wanted to put an exercise component in there and I work with Chef Judson. And part of this book has a high intensity training aspect to it so so I thank chef Judson for inviting me to be part of this book. But that's not why I'm having him on the show. I actually liked the book regardless, and I've said this before in other podcasts. And this is why I like the book so much. Because when it comes to making healthy food choices, as Chef Judson points out in his book, and as I've pointed out a million times it this is not easy. It's not easy to control your cravings and eat properly let's and Well, I've always used a song lyric to to kind of help kind of guide people through these these difficulties of making choices. And that is if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with. And there are lots of things that we have to avoid simple sugars, refined carbohydrates, the list goes on. But there's plenty of things that we can have. And that's the way I like to look at it don't pine for the things you can't have like pizza, and a lot of pasta. And think instead of the great things that you can have. And what I love about your book Chef, is the spice diet helps you love the things that you can have with the use of spices. And you know, just like some people, when they're decorating their house, they're afraid of color. They just paint everything white and tan in their house. Well, Chef, you're helping people kind of get over that fear of using spices and their foods and staying away from just salt and pepper, which of course are great spices but like there's there's a lot of spices that we can use. And we're going to get into all that I'm going to ask you a whole bunch of questions about spices and I love to cook and I love to love the things I'm allowed to have. Because I am avoiding all the things that I crave and I've never gotten rid of those cravings. I'm always pining for things I can't have. And I always get over it by thinking what can I have and how am I going to make it taste great. And you say in your book Chef, you say at the beginning of your book, you say you don't have to sacrifice flavor to eat well and healthy. So that leads me to one of my first questions. I just want to maybe get some background on you and I was wondering where Did your culinary journey begin? And what brought you to where you are now?

Chef Judson 05:05

Wow, great question, Adam. You know what I, I tell folks all the time that that my culinary background is a little different. I always say that I used to dream about food when I was a little kid. And, you know, I knew that there was something different about me, I just never knew what it was. But the moment you begin to like literally dream about food, like the flavors how you put them together, you know, something's not right,

Adam 05:31

you found your calling.

Chef Judson 05:35

yeah, But later, later, life to your point later in life, it turned out to be my calling, it turned out to be the fact that this was something I was very passionate about. So, you know, I followed that I followed those dreams I followed that passion into into high school where I studied food science, and I went to the only urban agricultural high school in the city of Chicago. So let me just kind of put some framework around that. City of Chicago, in a farming school, that is kind of doesn't make a lot of sense. urban area, you know, so, you know, there were a lot of things working against it, but there was a lot of things working for it. So yeah, so you know, I was introduced to, to the science of food, in high school, and I decided to carry that on to University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign, where I went for my undergraduate degree for college, where I continued food science, and studied engineering. So again, a very different bath background, you know, so I'm a food scientist graduated from the U of I. And I would say a little later, I decided, you know, I want to kind of get that culinary background as well. So I went out off to Paris, and I studied at Le Cordon Bleu and studied, that European culture of food traveled around and really kind of build my expertise around really understanding culinary edge to its core, brought all of that back to Chicago, and even created my own culinary point of view. along that journey, of course, I experienced a lot of issues with my weight, you know, I experienced a lot of difficulties with food addiction, which started when I was a very young child. And, you know, I've really kind of been able to really create my, again, my own culinary point of view. And that's around healthy food with bold flavors. So

Tim Edwards 07:37

you know, Chef, I've often found that in interviewing 1000s of people, those that are successful, started on a journey because of some pain they had in their lives, and they were looking for a solution. And that certainly seems to be your case. And now with with your book and your restaurants, you're helping other people change their lives and their eating habits as well. Tell us about that big break that you had that was a catalyst, I think it sounds like in your life and in your career.

Chef Judson 08:03

Yeah, you know, like I said, I'll kind of go back to that childhood moment where, you know, not different than a lot of people in this world that struggle with weight, or struggle with any addiction, right? It followed me for a very long period of my life. And it had such a captive hold on me that food literally controlled who I was. Again, I knew something was wrong with me and my family, and my parents knew that something was was off. When most people consume one cheeseburger and fries, or hey, we'll say maybe two cheeseburgers and fries. You know, for me, it was four or five, you know, so it was, it was to the point where nothing, no amount of food could really satisfy me. And it wasn't until I graduated from the University of Illinois, right, had experienced the weight issues had experience having experienced, the ridicule, the, the bullying, all of that, all of that stuff that comes with being overweight, having an addiction to food. But I graduated from the U of I and I was at an astounding close to 400 pounds. And I remember getting a photo of myself at graduation and they'll send you a little bitty photo they sent you this life sized photo of yourself

Adam 09:31

poster

Chef Judson 09:32

you know, so for the first time in my life, I'm looking at myself for who I really was and that was an overweight, have really obese person. And I always tell people that, you know, they say well, didn't you see yourself in the mirror growing up anyway. And it's funny because when I looked in the mirror and I was overweight, right, I was struggling with obesity. I wouldn't see an overweight person, right. I could control what I looked at. I would look at my face and I was okay with that, right, the smile, whatever. And I was fine with that. But for the first time, really, I had to look at this image. And that's when I began to shed tears. And of course, I blamed everybody, but myself, you know, everybody was the culprit but me, right? But it wasn't until I really came to terms in the grips of why I got to where I was, you know, what I went through as a child, all of those hard moments in my life that really had me turned to food as that coping mechanism. I had to really address those things. And then I had to acknowledge them and release them. And that's when I decided this was the point that I was going to take a healthier lifestyle journey and be successful at it. From a career perspective, I had an opportunity to, to work for ad column, one of the greatest and biggest names in entertainment, and entrepreneurship today, Steve Harvey. And that was a true total blessing. I tell you, I remember listening on the radio one day, and I was in the car with my family. And Steve Harvey made an announcement. And he said, I'm looking for a chef in Chicago that can help me to not only lose weight, but in the process. I want my food to be flavorful. And I remember looking at my mother, and I was like, did you see I was hitting my mother and my brother, like, did you hear this? Like, he's looking for me the architect of flavor. Like, he's asking for me. I felt like he was directly calling me on my phone like, Dude, I need your help. He had just moved to Chicago to film the first season of his daytime talk show. And, you know, everything happens for a reason. Unbeknownst to me, at that time, I had no idea that people that were a part of my team at that time, knew one of the folks that worked directly with Steve Harvey. She said, You know what, I'm going to reach out to his folks. She sent over my information to one of her friends who worked directly with Steve Harvey, and eventually got to him. He called me on my phone. And he literally I get a call from Steve Harvey. Like, and I'm like, Okay, I'm, I sit in your dreaming, I'm looking at the phone. He, in his iconic voice, like so. I hear you're a chef. And I hear you're a healthy chef who cooks with flavor. He said, What the hell is a food scientist? Anyway, he's. So he's going on and on about that.

Adam 12:34

I can totally see him saying,

Chef Judson 12:36

exactly. It was funny, you know, he said, You know, I want I would like for you to come and meet me at my studio. Now mind, I'm on the phone with him that day. He's like, I want you to meet me tomorrow. 5am in the morning, and I want breakfast, lunch and dinner prepared. But But the biggest challenge was I wasn't in Chicago, I was in Tennessee. So I hop on the first flight out out of Tennessee and head to Chicago don't get to chicago until close to 11 o'clock at night. And I go to a 24 hour grocery store. I prepare that whole night. And I get to Steve Harvey by 5am and nail it. He loves the food. And you know, the rest is history. I was with him for over four years. So he really had an opportunity to enjoy healthy food, with all of these different flavors and profiles and cultural influences, right? I never served Steve the same thing ever.

Tim Edwards 13:37

Wow. In four years. That's crazy.

Chef Judson 13:40

That is it's crazy. So it really showed him

Adam 13:43

like his wardrobe.

Chef Judson 13:45

Exactly, literally like his wardrobe changes every season.

Adam 13:52

never wears the same suit twice. Man,

Chef Judson 13:54

he doesn't and I tell you I'm right there always to get the clothes when he doesn't want them. So

Adam 13:59

this book is cool because it's not just a recipe book. And it's not just a diet book. It's learning how to eat healthy and learning the principles of healthy eating. And and then it's showing you the practical aspects of it and actually cooking and really learning about spices and not having that fear of spices. Let's start the beginning. Chef, what is a spice actually?

Chef Judson 14:26

You know, it's interesting, a spice is a spice come in many different forms. It comes in the form, it can come in the form of an actual plant a seed, right it can come from a bark, right but what how I define it so people understand it in layman's terms, is really one of those flavoring agents, right? That opportunity to bring flavor to food and it comes from a natural source. So you know where we find that some people call these manufactured spices that are full of salt and all this other stuff, right? That's, that's chemically produced in a lab. A real spice is something that you literally take from a tree from a bark, right from a plant from a seed, right? They that you manipulate it in a way either you can grind it, you can dry it, whatever. But it brings a certain flavor profile to whatever you are cooking. And that's what I appreciate about spices, spices are healthy for the body. Right? It has so many benefits, not only from a flavor, but also from a health perspective as well.

Tim Edwards 15:32

Chef, a question I have regarding the spices are all spices created equal. Meaning if I go to a regular grocery store, and they've got all the spices there on the on the shelf, compared to maybe something like Thrive Market or Whole Foods? Are all spices created equal, or their levels of of nutrition, and value and flavor amongst different types of spices, how they're created?

Chef Judson 15:57

That's a really great question. Nowadays, you have spices that are organic, right, which gives a different processing how the spices are treated, right. So you have a lot of people now going towards organic spices, where before it was just kind of spices or spices. But I would say that spices literally are spices, you know, there, there are no spices that are more, I would say more nutritious than others, you can get spices that have a better quality, right. So if I'm getting my spices directly from from India, right, they may be a little bit more intensified. So the curry that you find in India, India may be very different than the curry you find in Jamaica, right? So the flavor profiles will be different, the intensity would be different. And when I say intensity, I just mean just the potency of it. Right? Maybe different. So I couldn't put all curries in the same category. Right. And I think a lot of people, when they go to the grocery store, they just see curry and think, Oh, well, curry is curry. But you have different types of curry that come from different parts of the region, right? So depending on what part of the region they come from, it can it can have a different flavor profile, it can have a different effect on the body. And it can also have a different intensity profile. So I would say in that respect, yes. But from more of a nutritional perspective, probably not.

Adam 17:28

it depends what you're cooking too. I mean, like, you're not going to use some spices with certain meals, because they just don't go together. It's kind of like, you know, it's like certain colors don't go together, they clash, right. So foods and spices that probably work much better together, matter of fact, you talked about that in the book that, you know, combining these spices together works really well. And then there are other spices that don't work so well together.

Chef Judson 17:52

One of the biggest things I hear from people when before they read the book, is I'm afraid of spices, because I don't know how to use them, they stick to black pepper, salt, seasoning salt, and maybe some lemon pepper, right? Because they know how to use that salt and pepper on chickens, salt and pepper on beef, whatever. But when we get into things like smoked paprika, or tumeric, or cinnamon or coriander, right, they're like, Okay, what is that? How do I use it. And it's not that they don't necessarily want to use it. Again, they just don't know how so the book really guides them, right? I guide them in that process to say, hey, let's take cinnamon, let's take corriander. And let's take tumeric we add to shrimp and olive oil and garlic and you've got an amazing meal, right? That is full of flavor. And this is the flavor profile that you get. So I take all the guesswork out of it for people. And I take the intimidation out of it for people. That way. They don't feel scared to use the spices, right? And they don't mind going out and going to the spice aisle and picking up what they need. When they know how to use it.

Tim Edwards 19:01

You do a really great job of simplifying how to use these spices in your book. And you mentioned Tumeric a minute ago, what about bioavailability of these various components of these spices because I know you're the architect of flavor, but also one of the things I loved about your book goes beyond just making the food flavor full with the spices. It is using the spices for those that might need to lose weight or fight inflammation. You mentioned Tumeric I've learned in the past that Tumeric paired with black pepper are a good source of fat there. The Tumeric works better within your body. What about some of the other spices? With the bioavailability of them? Do you have any other combinations that might work? Well?

Chef Judson 19:39

Sure. So one thing that I always love, I'm a spice fanatic, right I love spicy food. Right? And, and this kind of gets into this kind of gets a little bit into that but it also gets into how do you fight cravings as well. Right? Which is also very important, right? Because that affects our body as well. So one of the biggest cravings people Have are sweet and salty. And one of the things I think that begins to alter the brain, the brains perception, right is if I'm craving salty, right, one of the things that counterbalance that is, okay, well, let me give you spicy foods, right. And if I'm enjoying spicy foods, then my, my interest in salty foods may decrease, right? So I may not crave salty foods as much. And they've done a lot of research out in China that really kind of justifies it, right? So when you're bringing things like cayenne or bringing things like spiced paprikas, right? Or hot peppers into your diet, right? In a dried form, or in a spiced form. Those are things that helped to speed metabolism, right, it gives you the energy that you need. And it also has been shown to reduce or aid in weight loss, right? Because as you're building and building your metabolism, you're losing weight, right? It's just naturally occurs in our body. So those are some things that I think are positives when it comes to the spices. And one thing that I would pair. The spicy things with, right are different things that bring in natural, sweet elements, right? Because that helps to curb your desire to want sweet foods after you enjoy a meal. Right. And I tell people, one of the biggest things is to make sure that when you're consuming a meal, you're satisfying different elements on your taste buds, right? So one of the things are, if I if I'm going to enjoy a super salty meal, right, a cheeseburger, and it's full of salt, right, I'm probably going to want something sweet after right, I'm going to go to the cheesecake, I'm going to go to the brownie, right. But if I say you know what, I'm going to enjoy a stir fry. That gives me sweet, that gives me salty. That gives me a little bit of the spicy that I'm looking for it all in a natural form, right not using processed ingredients right? Then my desire to want that cheesecake after has been decreased because I've satisfied that sweet element on my tastebuds. So it's combining spices and ingredients that can kind of help reduce the cravings and reduce other things that kind of go on with our brain function and with our body function. That makes sense.

Adam 22:24

That makes total sense that that was great. You also talk about substitutes to satisfy your cravings. For example, you talk about substitutes for people that have that are chocoholics, or substitutes with people that have a sweet tooth. How do you satisfy for example, like a salty craving people are love salt? How do you how to keep? Well, that's a big one people, you know, love salt. And when they start eating healthier, then you get rid of all that processed food. They're giving up a lot of salt and, and I bet that becomes a problem for people. So how do you deal with that one.

Chef Judson 22:56

So to satisfy the salty peas, and I'll use I'll go for the cravings of potato chips first, right? So one of the things that I came up recipe I came up with was Brussel sprout chips, right. And instead of using the potato, which is superstar to own the salt, the sea salt that I will put on there, that makes it really good, right? I said, Well, let me get brussel sprouts, and take off the leaves of those brussel sprouts, right. And I will bake those get them super crispy. And then I will use some of my spice blends that don't have so they don't have salt in them, right, but it's left but you're left with these amazing flavor profiles. So like I came up with a recipe for jerk Brussel sprout chips, which are amazing. So you get the sweet, you get the spicy, you get the aromatics in there, and you're left not really craving salt, because what's on your taste buds is the fact that you're getting all these other flavor profiles kind of popping off. Another thing, if people just desire to kind of go for the salt shaker at a meal. One thing that I like to do is incorporate things like vinegar, and citrus, citrus zest, right? Because those are things that help you to salivate, right? And those are things that kind of get your taste buds alive in a bit, you know, and I found that those are the things that actually help reduce the cravings for salt as well. So the are things like your vinegars and you can you can get out to the grocery store and get so many types of vinegar, apple cider vinegars rice wine vinegar, which has a sweetness to it. Different flavored flavored vinegars but also the citrus zest like lime and lemon are my best friends. I keep a lime and a lemon in my refrigerator at all times. Because I know that after like if I'm making shrimp, instead of going for the salt shaker, I put lemon juice in there. I'll put some lemon zest in there. And I'll add like some fresh parsley and garlic and I don't crave the salt because I've got so many flavor kind of nestled in that in that, in that recipe that it just pops.

Adam 25:06

So that's great chef, you just reminded me when you said that, you know, so many of these pre pre made spices, they come with a lot of salt in them. And I remember when I started, you know, putting dry rubs, I love smoking meats, you know, and I would make a full pack of brisket in a smoker. And, you know, I look, I go to the store and look at all these different rubs that they have and so much salt as this is first ingredient. And I'm like, so I ended that's how I ended up making my own rubs for it because I didn't want all that salt. Because when I started using those rubs, you know, when I when the product was finished, it'd be like too salty. I'm like, wow, and I don't mind salts, you know, so if it sounds if it's too salty for me, it's gonna be probably too salty for a lot of people. In any case, I love your your, your spice combinations that you put, I mean, wow, I mean, that's really cool. Because like, you don't have to be lazy anymore, and go and buy some pre made prefabricated rub in the store that who knows how long has been sitting there and how fresh it is. You can make your own rubs and, and your own spice mixes and you have a whole bunch here. Can you talk about some of them? Like what some of your favorites are? It's really exciting. This book is full of these different. Like, what do you call them? Spice?

Chef Judson 26:21

The spice blends, Yeah,

Adam 26:24

spice blends, Yummy. Wow, I can't wait to start using some of these.

Chef Judson 26:28

Yeah, these are these are great. I mean, you Adam, you hit it on the nail. It's like, you know, people don't have to go out and buy those pre fabricated, pre boxed, whatever you want to call it spices. Now because they're full of sodium. They're full of sugar, right? They're full of all of these things that we don't necessarily need. And it's so simple to buy the fresh spices or the spices, and then make your own mixes.

Adam 26:54

What I liked about one part of your book I really liked Chef, you have what you call the startup spice rack. So what what are some of the staple spices outside? Of course, the ones that we all know about? What are some of the startup spices that you think everyone should start working with? Outside of the typical ones?

Chef Judson 27:15

Yeah, that's a good question. A couple, I would say a couple of the really, really great ones that you want to add to any startup spice kit I in and I'll tell you these change over a period of time, right, depending on how my taste buds change, but for right now, I would say lean more towards the smoky paprikas. And, or the spicy paprikas, because I'm really into this paprika kick right now. Because paprika does so much not only for flavor, but also for color in food too. So it makes our food sexy. And that's important. I would say tumeric, of course, tumeric is something that you want to add to any startup kit, back in the day, it would not be anywhere near a startup kit, right. But because Tumeric now has so many benefits, both flavor and health wise, it's something that I recommend people add to their kit. dried thyme, thyme, I think is one of the it's just like, oh my gosh, I call it one of the best spices you can have is I put it in everything. I would say also, of course, you know, your your onion powders and your garlic powders are always essential, right? Because those I think are the basis for everything garlic and onion. But I would also encourage people Adam to go towards kind of channel outside of the spice range. And I would say the three ingredients that I would also have on hand, which I wouldn't consider necessarily spices, but enhance flavor would be parsley, fresh parsley, some type of lemon or lime zest or juice, you know, of course, first limes and lemons. And fresh garlic, so those would be the ones that I encourage people to get.

Adam 29:02

Alright, so this is great. I mean, I can go on and on with this. And this book has so much more to it. I mean, I highly recommend it. There's so many great recipes in here. And if you really want to love the one you're with, and not pine for the things you can't have, this is the book for you and learn and don't worry about using color. You know, paint your room, read and use tarragon and use cardamon and use all these great spices. Don't be afraid. All right. And that's that's the big lesson here. And not only that, you get the health benefits to boot. So thank you so much Chef. I really appreciate you coming on.

Chef Judson 29:35

Thanks for having me on the show y'all.

Tim Edwards 29:39

Special thanks to Chef Judson Allen, the author of the spice diet for joining us here on the inform fitness podcast. As I mentioned at the top of the show, you can pick up Chef Judson's audio book for free just by clicking the link in the show notes to audible trial.com forward slash inbound. You'll sign up for a free 30 day membership trial and download the spice diet. If you decide to cancel your membership for any reason at any time you get to keep the book. And while you're in there, you can pick up audio books from our other guests that we've had on the show, and you'll enjoy discounts of up to 30% Just by being an audible member. Speaking of free stuff. If you have not yet tried the power of 10 workout for yourself, click on over to informfitness.com There you'll find a free slow motion high intensity workout waiting for you. All you have to do is click the try us free button right there on the homepage. Fill out the form, pick your location, and then experience a free full body workout that you'll complete in just 20 to 30 minutes. One last request from us here at the inform fitness podcast. Don't forget to hit the subscribe button in whichever podcast app you might be listening. We have close to 50 episodes for you to binge listen, and if you don't mind, we would really appreciate it if you took a couple of moments to leave us a review. Until next time for Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers of inform fitness. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting Network.

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Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers of InForm Fitness are joined by Dr. Peter Attia to discuss the studying of the studies that we are constantly barraged with through the news and in our social media feeds. Dr. Attia explains the mechanics of scientific research and how to distinguish the relationship between showing cause and effect in an effort to become more equipped in understanding and possibly mistrusting the information we are given regarding exercise, nutrition, disease prevention, and more.
Dr. Peter Attia is the founder of Attia Medical, PC, a medical practice in New York City and San Diego that focuses on the applied science of longevity. Dr. Attia also happens to be a client of InForm Fitness.
Dr. Peter Attia's Website: https://peterattiamd.com
Richard Feynman on Scientific Method (1964) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KmimDq4cSU
Do We Really Know What Makes Us Healthy? By GARY TAUBES https://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/16/magazine/16epidemiology-t.html

47 Living with Uncertainty-Conversation about Studies w Dr. Peter Attia Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

study, exercise, relative risk, question, people, risk, difficult, point, drug, read, understand, epidemiology, picking, metformin, called, wrote, smoking, rule, squats, tricycle

SPEAKERS

Tim Edwards, Dr. Attia, Adam, Mike

Dr. Attia 00:06

You know, cognitive dissonance and bias are so strong. And once we lock in on an idea, it becomes very difficult to see evidence that contradicts that. And it also becomes very difficult to scrutinize evidence that supports it.

Tim Edwards 00:28

Welcome inform nation to Episode 47 of the inform fitness Podcast. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting network and in a minute, Adam Zickerman, the founder of inform fitness and general manager slash trainer at inform fitness New York City will be joined by the gentleman whose voice opened the show, Dr. Peter Attia, who is the founder of Attia Medical, PC medical practice with offices in San Diego and in New York City, focusing on the Applied Science of longevity. He also happens to be a client of inform fitness like myself. Dr. Attia joins us today to discuss the studying of studies regarding the mechanics of scientific research, and how to distinguish the relationship between showing cause and effect. Now you might be asking, What does any of this have to do with slow motion high intensity strength training? Well, plenty. How many times in this podcast have we referenced a study based upon exercise and nutrition alone. You see it every day in your social media feeds and on the news. But how many of these studies are actually true or even accurate? How are these studies administered? And can you trust the results? Well, to quote Adam Zuckerman hopefully after listening to this episode, you'll be a bit more equipped to understand the barrage of information you read and hear about, and not to fall, hook line and sinker for every claim that is reported as a study.

Adam 01:53

Hello, everybody, this is Adam, very excited about this podcast. It's kind of a little heady, gets into statistics, but hopefully we're going to break it down for the layperson. So when you read headlines that make such crazy claims that you can kind of your your, your well, basically a bullshit detector goes off and you can kind of figure out how to navigate that. So we have with us to talk about this Dr. Peter Attia. He's a physician practicing in New York City and California. And his practice basically focuses on longevity which he calls the overlap of lifespan and health span, which is kind of cool. His clinical interests are in Nutritional Biochemistry, exercise physiology, lipid ology, endocrinology, and a few other cool things. He's also somebody who works out very easily. You just worked out here just now didn't ya,

Dr. Attia 02:39

sure. Did.

Adam 02:40

How you feeling?

Dr. Attia 02:42

that hurt. That was

Mike 02:43

sorry. Sorry, Peter.

Adam 02:45

Mike trained him. Yeah.

Tim Edwards 02:48

Sorry, not sorry.

Adam 02:50

Peter is also an incredible athlete, endurance athlete. And he understands the efficacy of these types of high intensity workouts that we talked about. So Doctor, thank you for coming on the show.

Dr. Attia 03:02

Thank you for having me. But I will add one correction. I don't think I can use the word athlete to describe anything I do anymore

Adam 03:10

former athlete,

Mike 03:12

he looks like an athlete. It looks like you haven't seen him. He looks pretty good,

Adam 03:15

he's a good looking guy. So beat up. I want to do this podcast because I read your series you wrote, you wrote a five piece series called studying studies. And you venture into much detail about the mechanics, if you will, of scientific research, and how difficult it is to distinguish without a shadow of a doubt the relationship between, of course what all research tries to do, show cause and effect. So Dr. Attia, you start off your series, quoting two iconic individuals. First, from Mark Twain, who I guess you mentioned is quoting Disraeli, Benjamin Disraeli, who says there are lies, damned lies and statistics. And you also quote a Nobel Prize winning physicist Richard Feynman, one of my favorites, actually, I read his posthumously published Caltech lecture called the meaning of it all. Is that where you got this quote from? By the way?

Dr. Attia 04:07

I actually to be honest, I don't remember in which I mean, he said it so famously, so many times.

Adam 04:12

Yeah

Dr. Attia 04:12

My favorite book, of course, is surely you're joking. Mr. Fineman? Yes, which is the sort of the the sort of entertainment value of Fineman.

Adam 04:21

So Dr. Feynman says, The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful about that. And this is our responsibility as scientists, certainly to other scientists, and I think also to laymen. So doctor, you know, tell me if I'm wrong, but your main point of this whole series of essays is something that you actually say in your first essay, which is, and I'm quoting you, statistics can be both persuasive and misleading if we're not careful. And it's self persuasion that we must vigilantly guard against if we really want reliable knowledge about the world we live in. So can you tell us why this is so important to understand?

Dr. Attia 05:00

sure. But before I do, I also want to acknowledge, you know, the work that goes into the stuff that I write, it couldn't really be done without kind of a team of analysts I have. So inside my medical practice, I have a team of four analysts whose full time job it is to help me read, assimilate, digest, and understand the Absolute barrage of data that's out there. I think in one of our posts, we even mentioned that at last check, there are just under 100,000 pieces of literature produced monthly on PubMed, in the English language. And I think our estimation is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 of them, would be relevant to what we do, meaning they overlap with our field of interest, but also would rise to the standard of being relevant to our attention. And to funnel that down from 100,000 to 100, is something that I could use a team of 400 analysts to do, but the four guys I have are amazing. And in particular, Bob Kaplan, who's the who's sort of in charge of the whole operation, and my right hand, without him, this whole thing that we do, wouldn't wouldn't exist. So with that said,

Adam 06:12

That's Bob, shout out to Bob

Dr. Attia 06:14

And, and also, I think I would say, we wrote this series, knowing it was not going to be that quote, unquote, interesting. This was not something we wrote to, you know, there's no clickbait involved here. This is kind of something that we hope will over time become the sort of thing that people go back to. I forget who said it, but there's an interesting quote that that said something to the effect of like, your, you only learn something when you're actually ready to learn it. And of course, it was stated much more eloquently. But the point is, like, a lot of times these things fall on deaf ears. And so anyway, with that said, what we've created is a bit of a repository called studying studies. And it begins with, I think our first one is on relative versus absolute risk, which I'm sure we'll get to. But to your point, which is the important one, we are all myself included. So guilty of this, it is just, you know, cognitive dissonance and bias are so strong. And once we lock in on an idea, it becomes very difficult to see evidence that contradicts that. And it also becomes very difficult to scrutinize evidence that supports it. And so I think what Fineman says quite eloquently could be also stated, by, you know, one of the guys when I was doing my postdoc who I remember very well, he said to me, you know, you have to learn to kill your babies. So you're going to do you're going to have a hypothesis, you're gonna do a whole bunch of experiments, you're going to think you're getting an answer and, and you're going to start to, you know, drive that answer, you're going to, you're going to look at ways to see your data in a manner that makes your your answers seem more believable, but you have to be able to scrutinize that to the point where you ultimately end up killing most of your babies. So I don't pretend to say that this is easy. I think this is actually very difficult. And in many ways, the easiest way to do it is, you know, doing it the way we try to do it, which is have more than one person involved and have opposing sets of eyes. I've spoken about this, certainly in sort of other discussions around the notion of creating a blue team, red team. So this is something that's not uncommon in sort of experimental disciplines of science, like physics. But I think it's frankly, even valuable in things like, you know, a hedge fund, you know, so for example, if you're trying to decide if you know, this stock is worth the price that it's being asked right now, you typically will send off a team of analysts to do a bunch of research on that. But that exercise can be much more powerful if you send off a blue team and a red team that don't necessarily communicate with each other in any way, shape, or form, but go and look at data and force themselves to make the for and against case, and then you compare it. So

Mike 08:50

create a debate, like hoping that they'll be a debate.

Dr. Attia 08:54

Absolutely, yeah. So so that we internally kind of talked about this idea of Blue Team Red team, as a way to keep ourselves honest, because I don't really trust myself that much. And I don't know that any individual should be able to trust themselves.

Adam 09:07

No, I know, I'm biased. I mean, totally. When it comes to just the way we train people and how we view exercise, it's, and that's why I, like you said, you know, you don't learn something until you're ready for it. And that that's where I am in my career, you know, trying to push the envelope with exercise science and knowledge. And, you know, This can't be it. Right. So they got to be more to all this. I think it was Carl Sagan that said, if there's an exception to the rule in science, the rule is wrong. Yeah. You know, and I'm finding exceptions and exercise all the time. So you know, even I need to wake myself up and push the envelope and and question everything that I do, and this is why I have you on the show today.

Dr. Attia 09:44

Well, I think that that speaks to something that makes biology much more difficult than physics or mathematics. So the first thing is, I think there are very few rules in biology in the way that we think of rules in you know, these other disciplines. So to Your point, I don't think I could with a straight face make the case that there is one, exercise regimen, one nutritional regimen, one, you know, endocrinologic regimen, etc, that is optimal for every person. I mean, I simply know that's not the case. I could argue it on first principles, I could argue it empirically. So. So what's a corollary of that a corollary of that is that there are no proofs in biology. And we'll be very careful with the use of that word. So if I had $1, for every time I saw a study that said such and such proves x, or this study proves y it's incredible sloppiness either on the part of the journalist or the scientist, because unlike mathematics, where there are proofs, there are no proofs. In biology. Everything is stochastic. Everything is about probability, everything is about confidence. But there is no proof. And therefore, as an extension, there are likely very few rules, you know, outside of things like Central Dogma,

Adam 10:56

like exactly. So let's get to this idea of self persuasion and use some examples. All right? Example you use was a headline. And the title of this journal article said, cholesterol fighting drugs, lower risk of Alzheimer's disease. And you use that as an example of the self persuasion.

Dr. Attia 11:14

Well, you know, I was thinking about that, after we wrote it. And I was like, it wasn't even a great example. Because I mean, it was a good example. But I think it's a better one, if there's a far more egregious example, actually, which is the use of hormone replacement therapy in postmenopausal women and the risk of breast cancer associated with it. And I think I remember Bob and I talking about this before we put that piece out and deciding we weren't going to use that example, since that warrants an entire post on its own, which we'll get to. The gist of that is the following. I think many people if they're up in the peanut gallery, and not like digging down into the data will still have some sort of vague notion that hormone replacement therapy increases the risk of breast cancer in women. So the question is, where does that inclination come from? And that inclination comes from something called the Women's Health Initiative, which was a study that was done, in response to interestingly, an epidemiologic series of studies that suggested that women who went on hormone replacement therapy actually saw improvements in many aspects of morbidity, obviously, not easy to look at mortality. But for example, you know, greater cognition, improved bone density, improved heart health, less breast cancer, etc. But as was the reasonable thing to do, the question was, well, let's put this to the test with a prospective randomized, double blind, controlled trial. And that was done. I won't get into the complete shortcomings of the actual study, because the study itself had at least four enormous structural shortcomings that are not a fault of the people who studied it. In other words, at the time the study was done, I think it had to be done incorrectly, which is as ridiculous as that sounds. But when we look back today, it's very clear that you would do at least four things, different orthogonally differently, not just slightly differently. Nevertheless, when the study came out, the headline, the only thing that most people remember is, quote, breast cancer risk went up 25% In the women getting HRT. And so to this day, if I ever want to have a discussion about HRT with a patient, it begins with about a 30 minute lecture on the Women's Health Initiative, which is one of the papers I actually have sitting in my office on my desk, so I can just very easily refer to it.

Adam 13:24

It's kind of reminded me of the autism and vaccination type of,

Dr. Attia 13:28

well, that's even a worse example, because that was actually perpetuated by fraud, and what effectively turned out to be to be to be fraud, and, you know, sort of at least scientific misconduct. This was this was an example where yes, it is true that when you compared the use of estrogen and progestin to a placebo, the hazard ratio for breast cancer was 1.24. So what does that mean? So hazard ratio of 1.24 means a 24% increase in the relative risk of breast cancer. I'll resist all urges to explain why I don't even believe that that is correct. But let's assume it is correct. Let's assume that there was a 24% increase in response to the use of estrogen and or progestin. The important question that should be asked but was often overlooked was what was the absolute increase in risk? The relative increase in risk doesn't tell you anything by itself. And when you look back at the data, which is very easy to do, you don't actually have to be a statistician or mathematician to do this, it's actually only basic arithmetic that I think will walk readers through in that series. The absolute increase in risk was approximately going from four cases per 1000 to five cases per 1000. Now going from four cases per 1000 to five cases per 1000 is indeed a 25. Or, you know, there's actually 24% increase in relative risk, but it's only a one in 1000. or 0.1%, absolute increase in risk. So the way I try to help women understand HRT is let's assume that that's correct. And I'll give you seven reasons why I don't believe it is. But if that is correct, if that becomes our ceiling of risk, and let's assume it is, you then have to ask the question, is a point 1% increase in your risk of breast cancer worth the alleviation of some of the symptoms you might actually have during menopause? And of course, I think the answer would be it depends on how bad those symptoms are

Adam 15:31

right

Dr. Attia 15:31

If a woman is sailing through menopause, and she has no symptoms, then one could maybe convincingly say, look, it's not worth the hassle slash the risk. But when a woman is debilitated by, you know, a number of symptoms, including in all the vasomotor symptoms, which are usually the first ones, you have to ask the question, How bad is a point 1% absolute increase in a disease that has a one in 12 chance of killing you,

Adam 15:53

especially now, since you can probably figure out that family history of breast cancer

Dr. Attia 15:56

Absolutely. And we have much better, you know, ways to to further refine risk for an individual. So this is, to me, one of the most important things that the the lay person wants to have in their toolkit, which is if ever I read something, you know, whether it be in the actual paper itself, or more typically, in the way it's reported, I want to make sure I understand the difference between absolute and relative risk.

Adam 16:21

So Peter, is it is it to wieldy, a question to ask you to help us figure out the difference between, you know, our listeners figure out what relative risk is versus absolute risk

Dr. Attia 16:31

it might be, but I can give it a try. So the example I just gave is probably as good a one as you can use. Although I think we talked about Alzheimer's disease elsewhere, the relative risk, the risk of not using the word relative to define it says, from wherever you start, and I don't know where you're starting, or I'm going to ignore where you're starting, how much does the probability of this event go up. And that relative risk in this example is 25%. So you went from something that has a point 4% chance of happening to something that has a point 5% chance of happening. And going from point 4 to point 5 is mathematically an increase of 25%. So the relative risk is 25%. But of course, if you went from 40% likelihood of happening to 50% likelihood of happening, that would also be a 25% relative risk, the difference is in the latter example, your absolute increase in risk is 10%. Right? Whereas in the former, your absolute level of increase in risk is point 1%. And that's why it's very difficult to make decisions clinically without knowing both. But because we are, I think, inherently a bunch of lazy people. And I include myself in that just as anybody. We want headlines we want what's going to sound more exciting, there was a point 1% increase in the risk of something or there was a 25% increase, both are correct, but both are incomplete. in isolation.

Adam 18:03

You gave another example about the relative risk for this new drug that reduced cancer incidence by 50%. That was a relative risk, right? And then, but the absolute risk is really goes from two and two in 1000. Going to to one in 1000. Correct. So is that really a? Everyone thinks, wow, I have a 50% chance of reducing my risk of cancer when really it's that's actually not true? Well, it's true

Dr. Attia 18:28

it's true on a relative sense, because then you now have to evaluate, that's really the risk is dropping my absolute risk by point 1% worth the trade off of taking whatever this drug is

Adam 18:40

exactly. Right. And you say we're messy creatures, and there are so many moving parts and pieces. To what what will influence the results of the study, for example, the exercise habits of individuals that make up the sample or the access to health care, the smoking history can confound the results of the study you're trying to approve an association of. So like one confounder, I'd love you to talk about is this healthy user bias? All right, because that that that's a common one. And it's kind of easy to understand and how that plays into studies and how quickly and how, just what I'm trying to do is trying to find show how easy it is to have things screw up a study and the results really, really might not be what we think they are.

Dr. Attia 19:27

Yeah, so I mean, Richard Feynman does a great job. There's a there's a great clip on YouTube, and I'm sure it's I know we've linked to it somewhere in the blog about it. He's giving a lecture at, I think it's either it's either Caltech or Cornell. But maybe you can find it in the show notes and link to it, but it's a beautiful, beautiful exercise of him on a blackboard walking through the scientific method. And he explains it in a way that I won't even try to reproduce because it's just so priceless and Finemanesque, but it's effectively you make an observation. You make a guess you design an experiment and compute the consequences of what your guess would be if the, in other words, what would be the experimental outcome if your guests or hypothesis is correct, you design the experiment, and then you measure the outcome versus the outcome you predicted. Or that would be true if the thing is correct. Now, he explains it much more eloquently. The gist of it is, outside of doing experiments, we actually cannot establish cause and effect outside of the most extreme circumstances, that tend to be by far the exceptions and rarely the rules. So what you're talking about a healthy user bias becomes an issue when we rely on things outside of experiments, which we unfortunately have to do very often, or at least choose to do very often in human biology, because, as you pointed out, humans are messy. We live for long periods of time, you can't study us in captivity. So it's very difficult to do an experiment. For example, if you wanted to demonstrate, do people who exercise four times a week or more have lower risks of pick your favorite disease versus people who don't exercise? Okay, well to do that experiment is almost impossible. Because what are you going to do get, you know, 1000s of people and randomize them into two groups, meaning by randomization, that means you've mathematically created a large enough sample, that you now know that your two groups are statistically identical. And now you have one group exercise five times a week and the other group never exercise. And first of all, you assume that they're doing that, how you could make them do that. And without putting them in captivity for 20 years, I don't know. But at the end of 20 years, you then ask the question, hey, or even 10 years, whatever? Is there a difference in heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer's disease, etc? Now, we certainly think there would be. But we don't do that. Instead, what we do is we say, well, let's just actually go and survey the population. Let's take a backwards look. And ask the question, okay, let's find people and do surveys and find out how much exercise everybody does. And then we'll stratify people, and we will then do a mathematical analysis to try to simplify for other variables, and see if it gives us the answer. The problem with that is, if you're comparing people who, on their own are choosing to exercise five times a week versus people who on their own are choosing not to exercise, the likelihood that you are able to also tease out every other difference, for example, their sleep habits, their eating habits, it's very unlikely, yes, you can, using statistical analyses probably simplify some of the more obvious differences such as smoking, as a general rule, I think you'd find a higher incidence of smoking in the non exercising crowd than the smoking crowd. And that could probably be extrapolated. But many of these things cannot. And there's actually an amazing essay on this, or essay may be the wrong word, but Gary Taubes, who I know you must know. He wrote a great piece in 2007, in the New York Times Magazine. And it's I can't remember the title of it. But it's something you should also link to this because I think it's a real gem of a piece. The gist of it is like, what do we not know about studies, and I think it's one of the better pieces on the limitations of epidemiology, and specifically, this healthy user bias that really makes it difficult to understand the impact of nutritional choices, exercise choices, other quote unquote, lifestyle choices, frankly, even drug choices on heart outcomes. Because when you do these analysis, the hazard ratios, meaning the magnitude of difference between the groups is usually so small, that it falls well below the threshold of epidemiology to rise to the level of saying, and it's not significance, you can often find statistical significance. It's just can you be confident that there's a causal relationship here? And I would say unfortunately, the answer today is virtually never

Adam 23:57

Another example of healthy user bias that comes to mind is I hear often that people that floss their teeth have less cardiac disease, as if flossing your teeth itself has an actual cause on your an effect on your heart.

Dr. Attia 24:11

Now it could point is we can't learn it from that study

Adam 24:15

we can't learn because people that floss the teeth are also usually healthier in other ways, and they have healthier habits in other ways. And that might be the reason why they don't have heart disease as often. So that's the healthy user bias.

Dr. Attia 24:26

That's exactly right. And that's a great example of a question that would be quite vexing to me because I think that using cardiac disease as an example, it's it's it's certainly a disease that's both driven by lipoproteins, inflammation, endothelial function, all these other things. So is there a is there a plausible mechanism by which, you know, having poor dentition could increase your risk of heart disease? Absolutely. There's a plausible mechanism there. But we're not going to my guess is the hazard ratio on those studies is sufficiently low, and therefore, at best, it's generating a hypothesis to be tested.

Adam 25:00

Yeah, well, regardless, you should you should, whether it affects your heart or not, you should floss your teeth everybody

Mike 25:07

we think probably.

Adam 25:12

So you know, you use, you've been throwing around a couple words like epidemiology. And epidemiology is another word for an observational study. An observational study or an epidemiological study is different from a, what they call a random control study. And you're going to touch on how hard that is when you're putting people in captivity, because you have to control for all these variable. Otherwise, it all confound the results. So why, and you touched on this a little bit, maybe you can touch a little bit more, why aren't there more, you know, random control studies, which are considered the researchers gold standard of studies. Why are we relying on all these epidemiological studies, which, as you just pointed out, have all these confounded all these, you know, problems.

Dr. Attia 25:58

So I think it comes down to a couple of things. But one of the biggest issues is the most obvious one, which is a logistics problem, it is very difficult to do randomized control trials, and it is often much much more expensive. It also takes much longer. So if you want to study the effect of let's go back to the previous example, we had, does the frequency of exercise impact even just pick one metric? Does it impact your risk of Alzheimer's disease? Which is a very important question. And certainly, one that logically would make sense, you know, more exercise, better blood flow, you know, you know, a number of neurotrophic factors, BDNF, all of these things, you come up with 100 mechanisms, why, but if put to the test, are we going to say we're going to get to group several 100 people and force one of them to not exercise force another one of them to exercise and again, we're going to put these people in captivity, that's impossible. So they're going to have to live in their free world, and hope that the compliance is high enough that you create enough discrimination between the two groups, and then follow for an outcome. Now, it's not to say that that nothing I described there cannot be done. All of that can be done. The question is, how difficult is it? How expensive is it? And oh, by the way, who's paying for that study? Because it's very difficult to remunerate on an exercise study. So while we can, we have a much higher appetite for doing randomized control trials in pharmacology, and part of it is because the FDA says you have to we're not approving this drug if you haven't done if you haven't demonstrated safety and efficacy and effectiveness in prospective clinical trials. But there's an incentive to spend a billion dollars, which is about how much it will cost today, a little over a billion today to get a drug approved through that process. But it's very difficult to imagine doing that with something for which there's no remuneration. That's the first fundamental problem. The second one comes down to the ethical problem. Sometimes the most interesting questions are ones in which we just really don't think it would be ethical to randomize people to one of the two groups.

Adam 28:04

So you can't test harmful effects

Dr. Attia 28:06

Yeah, we can't. Not that this is debatable today, but certainly there was a great period of time after the landmark Surgeon General's report in the early 1960s, demonizing smoking, between that and the widespread acceptance of the role of the smoking played in lung cancer. But the question is, could you with all of that mounting evidence, and those were examples where the hazard ratios were more than 10? So this now gets into the territory of where epidemiology may actually be sufficient for determining causality? But would we feel if we were, you know, scientists and physicians designing that study? Would we be comfortable randomizing people to a forced smoking group? And the answer is no. And similarly, today, I don't know that if I were involved in a clinical trial, I'd be terribly excited about randomizing people to a group of don't exercise, right, or let's disrupt your sleep for the next 10 years, certainly, on a short term basis, it's probably reasonable to do sleep disruption studies over a period of weeks or even months to test the, you know, validity of theories around the importance of sleep. And, you know, for example, glucose homeostasis

Mike 29:11

In a silly way, what the guy did in Supersize Me, you know, how he just like ate all that crappy food

Dr. Attia 29:16

thats right

Mike 29:17

you know, so it's a I mean, they he chose to do that to himself and then tested his health markers throughout the period

Adam 29:24

sample size of one Yeah,

Dr. Attia 29:26

yeah. But, but basically, these are the these are the fundamental issues, which is, you know, compliance, logistics, duration, cost and ethics.

Adam 29:37

Yes. Okay. So hence the reason why we are really relying on so many observational studies or epidemiological studies. You even pointed out that 52 observational studies were looked at. And these particular 52 observational studies were actually tested by a random control study, and the random control studies showed that every single conclusion of the 52 all 52 conclusions of the observational studies were wrong. They didn't, that's zero for 52. That's ridiculous. So, so what gives? I mean,

Dr. Attia 30:14

I think we I think a lot of the low hanging fruit in epidemiology is gone. I think that's the bottom line. I think when you think of the real gems, the real case studies of what made epidemiology great. It was in areas where so epidemiology is such a blunt tool, that you need enormous amounts of discrimination between what you're trying to detect. And so smokers getting lung cancer or not getting lung cancer, people exposed to massive amounts of asbestos getting mesothelioma yes or no chimney sweepers or non chimney sweepers getting scr0tal cancer, yes or no, you know, these questions, they had such enormous impacts that the epidemiology could give us much, much more confidence in an answer. Today, we're dealing with things where if they're, and to be clear, going back to those 52 cases, I'm not suggesting that every one of those epidemiology studies was incorrect. It's also possible that some of those randomized control trials were so poorly done that they missed the mark. What I'm saying is at that point, we're now outside of the discriminatory capacity of the tool to measure. And I don't know if I, I think we've written about this as well. And even more upsetting feature is not that what's more upsetting is when you look at and John Ioannidis, who's if anybody's interested in this space, and they're looking for one person to be reading, in terms of just like, who's a very thoughtful academician, who I think has some of the most insights on this topic. It's this fella by the name of John Ioannidis at Stanford University. And John's written some of the most cited papers on this topic, including a very famous paper, I believe, in 2005. in Plus One that gets at this notion of how most published research is incorrect.

Adam 31:57

So, all right, which kind of brings me to the grand finale question is, now that we're thoroughly confused, and we can't trust observational studies, or random control studies, because it's so difficult to do and not done well. So what do we do as lay people we're trying to we're trying to lead healthy lives, you're trying to improve ourselves, we're trying to make decisions what drug to take or not take, what do we do? I mean, like

Mike 32:22

is that prepared to do the date that deep dive like? Well, step one,

Adam 32:25

I even with the deep dive, it seems like, you know, even you know, you can learn you can read a book on statistics and still do your homework and still figure out holy cow, we still don't know for sure. So So what do we do?

Dr. Attia 32:37

Well I mean, I guess there's, there's a couple ways to think about this. I think the first way to think about this is to get comfortable with uncertainty. I think. I don't think we're wired to deal with uncertainty very well, we don't really think

Adam 32:50

that's why there's religion.

Dr. Attia 32:51

Yeah, I think that's why there's a lot of actual problems, frankly, which is, we, we, and again, when I say we I'm being very deliberate, and to include myself, because even though I'm trained in mathematics, and I think I think as probabilistically as anybody, I know that in my darkest moments, I tend to revert to binary thinking. And so I think

Adam 33:14

what does that mean?

Dr. Attia 33:15

Meaning it's black or white? It's this or it's that there's no problem, you know, as opposed to thinking in probability distributions. So that the real way we should always be thinking about life is probabilities.

Adam 33:26

Yeah

Dr. Attia 33:26

Now, in some cases, we love the examples where the probabilities are so clear. So if I drop this pen, what is the probability that it will hit the floor? Well, that is actually, you know, you can describe that with a probability function in physics and mathematics. And it will show you that

Adam 33:41

there's a small probability that it will actually hit the floor

Dr. Attia 33:44

yeah, there's a theoretically small probability that it won't hit the floor. From a practical standpoint, in that example, the answer is zero. So we have a bunch of rules that govern our universe that get us, I think, overly comfortable in the notion of yes or no black or white zero or one binary type answers. In sort of engineering, we describe that as being digital, on or off

Adam 34:10

Gotcha

Dr. Attia 34:11

The opposing concept is called analog, where you have a sliding scale from zero to one, you turn up the lever, and so so that's to me, biology is much more analog than digital. And therefore, for every question, you just have to say, well, we may never actually know the answer to this, what I have to do if I'm making a decision, or what my doctor has to do, if she's making the decision, or at least advising me on the decision is I have to be able to understand the risk adjusted return on this investment. So the very simplest way I try to explain this to patients is using a two by two matrix. So on the x axis is where I talk about the reward. On the y axis, the vertical axis is where I talk about the risk Now, even though those are

Adam 35:01

the hormone replacement therapy might be a good example.

Dr. Attia 35:04

Sure, frankly, everything that we do is an example of this. In fact, Bob and I often will draw on a whiteboard like this two by two matrix and, and shade in the parts of it that we think represent any type of intervention. So where does Where does high intensity interval training fit in on this? Where does you know, long distance endurance training fit into this? Where does taking Metformin fit into this? Where does you know intermittent fasting fit into this, like, anything that you can do should be able to be placed on that matrix? And it's not a point, it's not a dot by the way, it's like a, you know, a shaded

Adam 35:36

curve

Dr. Attia 35:37

curve, Yeah, exactly. So it's complicated. So but you can simplify this into a two by two as opposed to just a continuum. And the two by two would be when dealing with the reward or the payoff, think about picking up a Bitcoin versus picking up $1 bill. Now this is this example might be irrelevant in a few years, bitcoins irrelevant. But but let the record show that at the moment of this a bitcoin is still worth something so. So you either you're either asking the question is, am I picking up a Bitcoin? Am I picking up $1 bill? Or making a penny for that matter? Right, something that we think we would ascribe very little value to? On the risk side? The question is, am I picking this thing up while it's sitting in front of a moving tricycle or a moving train? So what so I try to look at everything I do through that lens. And the first thing you want to realize is you never ever want to be picking up dollar bills in front of moving trains. That's an obvious statement, but it's worth thinking through things that you might do. There are lots of things that I think people propose to do that in my mind, amount to that picking up $1 bill in front of a moving train. Yeah, you know, you could get $1 but it could also be a catastrophic outcome. Conversely, there are very few opportunities that we aren't already aware of that are akin to picking up bitcoins in front of tricycles. Most of those things have been realized, for example, not smoking, is picking up a Bitcoin in front of a tricycle.

Adam 36:43

Yeah

Dr. Attia 36:46

it's got a huge multiplier effect. And it's, you know, it's relatively safe to not smoke. Similarly, being insulin sensitive, as an outcome is another one of those things where like, there's just no disagreement, there is complete convergence along the importance of insulin sensitivity with respect to cardiovascular health, cerebral health, cancer, etc. Now, the How to becomes more problematic. So, you know, should one do this type of exercise versus that type of exercise? should one take this drug versus that drug? You know, Metformin I brought up before a moment ago, because, you know, I think, about 10 years ago, it started to become pretty clear in what are called cohort studies, where you took backwards looks at, you know, backwards looks at data that were collected for other reasons

Adam 37:55

retrospective

Dr. Attia 37:56

Yeah, these are retrospective cohort studies that were looking at patients with diabetes, who were taking Metformin versus those who weren't taking Metformin. And they corrected for all sorts of factors. And, you know, the suggestions looked pretty interesting, actually, both on an absolute and relative basis, the Metformin takers were getting a lot less cancer, their their, their relative risk, reduction of cancer was about 25%. And their relative risk in mortality was about 38 to 40%. Again, I don't remember the absolute numbers, but they weren't trivial. It wasn't like one of these point 1% questions. So it begs the question, should we be taking Metformin for cancer prevention now, so at least three out of five patients will come in my office and they want to know if they should be taking Metformin. And full disclosure, I do. I've been taking Metformin for 10 years. But I also like to point out to patients, that I'm taking it in a really off label way, because I don't actually have data to talk about insulin sensitive people taking Metformin to reduce the risk of cancer. So to me, I don't think that that is so the benefit of taking Metformin, if you have diabetes, it's obvious might be high enough that that's like your Bitcoin and I think Metformin is a relatively safe drug that it's probably closer to the tricycle than it is the train. But in someone like me, I think I'm going to be brutally honest, it's really picking up $1. Bill, I don't believe I'm getting nearly the benefit of the patients with type two diabetes. And I say that based on subsequent cohort studies that looked at obese non diabetics that were insulin resistant versus not etc. So, to your macro question, how the hell does one actually make sense of this? I think the the short answer is you don't there is no making total sense of is there is no knowing what to do at all times. There's simply a process by which you think about things and notice everything in that process involves your own lens for risk.

Adam 39:50

Well, you know, when you when you talked about you describing the bicycle versus the train and picking up a penny I mean that that says it all I think I mean, that's that's the answer. because, you know, when I relate when you're saying that I was thinking about a comment one of my clients made to me saying, listen, Adam, I remember what you told me because this is a guy that over I considered that overtrained. You know, he just worked way too much always getting hurt, always sore. And I said to him, you know, I'm more of your risk manager than I am your trainer. In other words, you know, squats are a great exercise. deadlifts are a great exercise. But at what risk because doing squats with barbells or weights on your spine is just not worth the benefit. Because it can be catastrophic. You might as well do leg press, and maybe a leg press machine is not as effective as a squat with dumbbells on it. You know, but it's a lot less risky. So that's these are the decisions that we're making, how we train people how we exercise. Yeah, maybe squats are better, who knows, but there are a lot I know, they are a lot riskier. So let's take the less risky route.

Dr. Attia 40:56

Yeah, I think that's a great example with I mean, I'm a huge proponent of squats and deadlifts. But I'll still go through periods of time. You know, Mike, we were talking earlier at the workout you asked me before we started, hey, you got anything kind of bugging you? And it's like, yeah, you know, my right SI joints been bugging me for a little while. And I actually took six weeks off deadlifting just focused on all single leg isolated, you know, lots of lunges, lots of lateral stuff, and basically just had to give the thing a rest. Now that was that absolutely necessary? No, I'm sure I could have pushed through it. But yeah, the view was, look, I can probably get 80% of the benefit without the exposure and the risk. And I think when you are doing very, very heavy compound joint movements. Rule number one is don't get hurt. And you talk to any good investor, they'll say Rule number one is don't lose money. Now Charlie Munger probably gets credit for being the first to say that. I think any investor will say that rule number one, don't lose money. Rule number two, don't forget rule number one. And rule number one of exercise is don't get hurt.

Adam 41:51

Yeah. Thank you so much. That was That was great. And sorry that we didn't have any great conclusion for you people. But that's that's reality, that that there's a lot of uncertainty in this world. Now. I highly, highly recommend you read everything that Dr. Attia writes. He has a website PeterAttiamd.com. Right, Peter Attia ATTIA MD.com. Read everything he writes, I highly recommend it. Thank you so much for coming on our show. That was very informative, very articulate.

Dr. Attia 42:21

Thanks for having me. Thanks for the workout.

Mike 42:24

It's my pleasure. Thanks for being here.

Tim Edwards 42:28

Thanks, guys. We'll include links in the show notes not only to Dr. Attia's website, but also to an article that he referenced earlier in the episode written by Gary Taubes the articles titled Do we really know what makes us healthy. Dr. Attia also referenced a video that you can find on YouTube. It's Richard Feynman scientific method, we'll have a link in the show notes to that as well. You'll find additional links in the show notes that will direct you to the inform fitness website where you'll find a free slowmotion high intensity workout waiting for you. Just click the Try us Free button right there on the homepage, fill out the form, pick your location, and then you can experience a free full body workout that you can complete in just 20 to 30 minutes, it's informfitness.com And yet another link in the show notes is for Adams book titled power of 10 the once a week slow motion fitness revolution. That link will take you to Amazon and for less than 15 bucks you'll find a ton of nutritional tips including a handy list of foods that support the power of 10 protocol, and some effective demonstrations of exercises that you can perform in the comfort of your own home. You know we have close to 50 episodes for you to binge listen if you're new to the podcast, so don't forget to hit subscribe in whichever podcast app you might be listening. And if you don't mind, we'd really appreciate it if you took a couple of moments to leave us a review. Until next time for Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers of inform fitness. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting Network.

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Adam Zickerman and MikeRogers discuss something the vast majority of us take for granted every day, our balance. Some of the myths and facts regarding the maintenance of our balance through the myriad training methods practiced in gyms all over the country, some of which are downright dangerous.

46 The Balance Training Trend is on Shaky Ground Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

balance, unstable, walking, surface, leg, exercise, trainers, sensory input, called, problems, people, sensory receptors, standing, stable, fitness, improve, muscles, confidence, motor skill, adam

SPEAKERS

Tim Edwards, Mike, Adam

Adam 00:05

So based on current research I and inform fitness in general does not recommend the use of unstable surfaces outside of a rehabilitative setting. Physical therapy, exercise performed on unstable surfaces does not transfer well to stable surfaces or our everyday life. Nor do the risks outweigh the beneficial adaptation. Some experts even believe that there may be a reduction in stable surface performance for the same exercise. When developing training programs for clients fitness practitioners, a must focus solely on safe, intense strength training.

Tim Edwards 00:46

That of course, was New York Times best selling author and founder of inform fitness, Adam Zickerman. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting network and a client of inform fitness. Shortly we will be joined by Adam and his general manager and trainer of the inform fitness location right there in the heart of New York City, just about five or six blocks east of the base of Central Park. Here in Episode 46, Adam and Mike discuss something that the vast majority of us take for granted every day, our balance, they will discuss some of the myths and facts regarding the maintenance of our ever so important balance through the myriad of training methods practiced in gyms all over the country, some of which are downright dangerous. So how do you safely train to improve your balance? Well, let's hear from the experts.

Adam 01:34

So the thing about balance is that most of us take our balance for granted. Man, I don't think any of us think twice about walking across a gravel driveway, or transitioning from walking on a sidewalk onto grass, or getting out of bed in the middle of night without stumbling. I mean, it's just things that just we do, we don't think about it. And believe it or not, there are people that have impaired balance, meaning activities, like I just mentioned, can be extremely fatiguing, hard to do. And dangerous. I mean falls I mean, especially older individuals. And there's so much confusion about balancing what balance actually is, and all the myriad factors that influence balance, and our esteemed. Our esteemed exercise industry, as usual, oversimplifies the solution to improving one's balance, mainly because they don't even understand all the parameters of balance and all the things that go into somebody's balance. And of course, you know, as a result of not understanding it, and over simplifying it, you know, most of the recommended exercises to improve balance are best ineffective, and at worst, they can actually lead to more injury. So the story about balance, it kind of reminds me of the same story about saturated fat absolutely how its still bad for you to have saturated fat. And the reason the balance and the saturated fat story kind of are similar to each other is because on the surface, it seems very logical that saturated fat must be bad for you, right? I mean, how could it not be? I mean, you can practically see the gobs of fat clogging your arteries as you eat it. But still, there is no compelling evidence backing this idea up. Yet, despite the fact that there's no compelling evidence, researchers are still warning us against its consumption and skew the results actually to fit their argument. And we talked about that in depth. In podcast, which one Tim

Tim Edwards 03:16

it was episode 34 titled is the American Heart Association misleading us about coconut oil? So we go certainly deeper into it about some of the studies and how some of those studies are incredibly outdated, which are telling us that saturated fats are harmful for us.

Adam 03:31

So you know, that's another example of this idea that it must be true, because how can saturated fat not be bad for you, and we try to support our beliefs, our biases, and the same thing with balance. You see, there's a growing trend in our fitness industry now. And it's the use of these unstable surfaces during resistance training. You know, if you walk through any local gym or Personal Training Studio in the functional training gyms, you'll see bozhou domes, air disc balance boards, and some professionals, a lot of professionals actually are claiming that unstable surfaces, increased balance, proprioception, which is the ability for the body to know where it is and how it is moving in space, and of course, core stability. All right, well, at first glance, as with the saturated fat story, at first glance, it's easy to see why most of the population would believe such claims. I mean, if you balance on an unstable surface, why wouldn't you be able to bounce better on a stable surface? If your core is constantly contracting? To maintain your center of mass? Why wouldn't your core stability improve? And while these claims seem logical, the truth of the matter is current research has not been able to support any of this. So first things first, let's define balance as it's truly defined in the medical world. So simply put balance is the ability to maintain the body center of gravity over its base of support. And a properly functioning balance system allows us to do four things really alright. First, it allows us to see clearly while we're moving or Vision. Alright, it also balance allows us to identify orientation with respect to gravity, three, it determines direction and speed of movement. And then, with those three abilities, it also helps us make automatic postural adjustments to maintain posture and stability in various conditions and activities. Now, balance is achieved and maintained by a complex, a very complex set of sensory motor control systems. And that includes sensory input from several sources, our sight, our touch, which is called proprioception, and something called the vestibular apparatus within the ears, our inner ear, and that stimuli input from motion, equilibrium spatial orientation. So already you can see this is kind of complicated stuff. And there are there are disciplines and just this balance alone, I mean, ear nose and throat doctors deal with this regular basis. ophthalmologists deal with this on a regular basis, neurologists deal with people with balance problems on a regular basis, because that's what balance is part of it's part of our neuro system, our visual system, and our inner ear. All these things contribute to our balance, then is the integration of all the sensory input, and then the motor output to the eye and skeletal muscles that react to the sensory input. And all along this chain things can go wrong and affect our balance, injury, disease, certain drugs, and even just the aging process can affect one or more of these components. In addition to all this, there are also psychological factors that impair our sense of balance. If you've fallen in the past and got hurt, now you're nervous, you know, there's all kinds of psychological things that make us think that we don't have balance or affects our balance, even though really there's nothing wrong with those sensory systems that I just mentioned. So I just want to briefly touch upon, no pun intended, some of the sensory input. I'll try not to get too bogged down in the biology, but this stuff is really fascinating. So you have the input from muscles and joints, right. So this is called proprioceptive. Information from the skin, the muscles and the joints. And they involve sensory receptors that are sensitive to stretch or pressure and their surrounding tissues. For example, increased pressure is felt in the front part of the soles of the feet when a standing person leans forward. With any movement of the legs, arms and other body parts sensory receptors respond by sending impulses to the brain. Now along with other information, this these stretch and pressure cues help our brain determine where our body is in space. So that's the input from muscles and joints, but you also have input from what I mentioned before the vestibular system, sensory information about motion, equilibrium and spatial orientation is provided by this vestibular apparatus they call it, which in each ear include something called the utricle, the sacral, and these these three semicircular canals. You might remember this from high school biology. But anyway, the utricle and a sacral, they detect gravity and linear movement. And the three semicircular canals, well, they detect rotational movement, and are located right angles to each other and are filled with this fluid, alright, I think it's called endo lymph, this fluid if I'm not mistaken, regardless, the head rotates in a direction. And sense by these canals, this fluid moves in a very specific way and exerts pressure against the canals. sensory receptor is this whole chain of events. And the receptor then sends impulses to the brain about the movement, and the muscles react accordingly. Now, if you have an inner ear problem, balance can be completely affected. And there's nothing a trainer can do about that is, is where my point is going. So we also have this input from the eyes, our vision has a lot to do with their balance, you know, the eyes have these sensory receptors. In the retina, they're called rods and cones. And they send impulses to the brain that provide visual cues, identifying how a person is oriented relative to other objects. So if you have vision problems, or blurred vision, or peripheral vision problems, that can screw up your balance. And then all these inputs from the eyes touch proprioception, from our ears, the vestibular apparatus, all these sensory inputs, then they have to go get integrated, and that's a whole system, there was anything wrong with the integration system, then balance can be affected. So as you can see, the human balance system involves a complex set of sensory motor control systems, and malfunction or damage to any of these components, either through injury or disease can lead to all kinds of balance problems with all this in mind, doesn't it seem rather primitive to think that people's balance issues can be solved by working out on unstable surfaces, or using free weights versus machines? As Dr. McGuff once said, and I don't think this is his quote, but I like it. He said that. If all you have is a hammer, then the whole world looks like a nail. Trainers are not EMTs trainers are not neurologist trainers are not ophthalmologists. So when a client comes in and mentions that they're having trouble with their balance, what is a trainer to do? They turn to the tool that they have the hammer that they have Alright, the unstable surfaces and Knowing all this, if you really know about balance issues, this is so primitive, it's mind boggling. So let's start exploring the exercise industry's claims of increased balance. Now that we know what balance consists of. There are few, if any actual studies to date that show that the type of increased balance and core stability developed through exercises performed on unstable surfaces transferred to stable surfaces. Therefore, while performing exercise on unstable surfaces, while that may increase an individual's ability to perform the exercise is on that particular surface, it doesn't transfer to the stable services grass, the court, or even ice. Now, optimal balance is gained by performing a given task on the surface on which it will be performed in everyday life. Matter of fact, many researchers also believe that performing exercises or sports skills on unstable surfaces actually decreased the ability to perform the same tasks on a stable surface. Now, I think the reason of this decrease is because it's according to well established motor learning principles. The movement pattern on stable surface interferes with the original pattern created on a stable surface. As far as the body is concerned, doing a similar exercise on a stable surface versus an unstable surface, they might as well be two completely different things. Although we think it's similar enough to kind of mimic, but it doesn't work, it just doesn't work that way doesn't transfer they call it negative transfer. In other words, the unstable surface is not specific to the movement being practiced, the time spent on an unstable surface could have been better spent just mastering the movement itself that you're trying to improve. Another popular claim made by proponents of unstable surface training is an increase in what they call your core stabilization. As with balance, any core stabilization that is possibly enhanced by activity on unstable surface, again, has not been shown to transfer to stable services. Again, most research even shows that performing resistance exercises on stable surfaces requires more core activation and stabilization, then performing the same exercise on an unstable surface. Again, most likely because the ability to provide progressive overload, which means that's what exercise is progressive overload, meaning gradual increases in weight. As you get stronger, you're progressively increasing the weight. And because you're on unstable surfaces, you really can't keep raising the weight when you are on an unstable surface. As the individual gets stronger it becomes too risky to increase the weight while on unstable surface, which is probably why those findings were what they are. So based on current research, I and inform fitness in general does not recommend the use of unstable surfaces outside of a rehabilitative setting. Physical therapy, exercise performed an unstable surface does not transfer well to stable surfaces or our everyday life. Nor do the risks outweigh the beneficial adaptation. Some experts even believe that there may be a reduction in stable surface performance for the same exercise. When developing training programs for clients, fitness practitioners, they must focus solely on safe, intense strength training. And if you want to get better at a particular activity, practice that activity. I have a client for example, that, well she has trouble walking, she's very weak, she had a fall, she got sick, she gained a lot of weight. Now she has trouble walking. What should I do? I say let's do leg press. Let's get those legs strong. Let's get strong overall. And you know what? Start walking. If it's hard to walk for two blocks, walk one and a half blocks. And then keep increasing it till you can walk two blocks and three blocks and four blocks. Well guess what? She can walk now she's walking five, six blocks without a problem anymore. And all she's been doing is doing leg press and all the gross motor skills of developing gross motor strength. And she's walking. As another example of some of the hardware. Some of the some of the crazy stuff that's out there is there's these ideas that if you start practicing walking backwards, that it will help you walk forward. Again, the only thing that practicing walking backward does for you is teach you how to better walk backwards. It does nothing, it's a completely different motor skill. That's like saying, learning how to play the guitar is going to help you play the flute, there might as well be two different instruments, completely two different instruments. And this is going on all over the place. And you know, what if some of this stuff was just benign, and it really didn't do much for you. I don't know if I'd be making such a big deal about this. Because you know, the bottom line is these these track a lot of these practices are not benign. My good friend Bill DeSimone just told me he came back from functional training seminar just to see what they're teaching and they're having you do like squats on one leg with with weight on just one side of a barbell over your shoulders just to just to kind of strengthen your core.

Tim Edwards 14:49

So as you know guys in addition to the inbound podcasting network, I run a video production marketing company and one of my clients is an agency that hires my company to go out and film other gyms Of course that aren't inform fitness and practice some of these weird and crazy modalities. And I literally filmed this woman standing on this ball that looked like Saturn, I'm sure that's what you're talking about. And while she was standing on this ball, this blue ball with this wooden outside that she was standing on platform, she was doing curls. And first thing, and then she was doing those curls, and it was next to some machines. And I thought, well, if she falls, she's gonna hit her head. And so I was thinking that that must be what you're talking about some of these other facilities, offering some of these, you know, like you mentioned, Bill DeSimone was just came back from a conference to see what they're teaching nowadays of some of these crazy exercises that, that some of these trainers are having their their clients go through that would cause more harm than good.

Adam 15:47

I mean, that's a disaster waiting for happen. I mean, you get hurt doing that you're not just pulling a muscle, you can have a spinal injury that can set you back for the rest of your life. So these are not benign practices that are going on. They're telling sedentary, middle aged people to stabilize on these balls with one leg. And they're damaging, and getting ACL tears and all kinds of crazy knee problems as a result of just trying to improve their balance as if they even know what balance actually is, and why it consistents of. So unless your goal is to perform in a circus, or balance on top of a bowl, don't waste your time trading on these unstable services,

Mike 16:24

I actually work with people on their balance and try them. In a similar fashion to what Adam explained, I tried to explain to them what's involved with it. And I think he made a big a very big point, especially with like, vision and the vestibular elements of it. I mean, if you have problems with that, it's nothing we could do training wise, you know, to help those issues, which are part of what maintains your center of gravity. But the tone of this is that outside of strength training, there's nothing you could do to help your balance outside of the actual motor skill of whatever this specific activity is. And just strength training. And there's nothing else that we could be doing for helping our our balance.

Adam 17:06

Nope, I really don't think there is absolutely anything you can do as trainers, we are trainers, right? So, so the best thing we can do for our balance, as trainers is strength. I mean, a good portion of people that have balance problems are just weak, it's weakness, it's low muscle tone, so just strengthen their quads, but you don't have to strengthen our quads on unstable surfaces, the idea is the idea of unstable surfaces having some additional benefit for somebody balance, then just doing a leg extension, just doing a push up just doing a classic exercise that's congruent to our biomechanics, that's going to strengthen every muscle in your body. And then if you're having issues with your balance, walking, or, you know, you went on a boat ride, and you're falling all over the boat, then you know what, go on the boat more often. Because the more you go on a boat, the better your balance is going to get, as long as you're strong enough, if now if you're really weak, if you have really weak legs, you know, you're gonna have balance problems on a stable service, much less an unstable surface. But learning how to stand on a boat, if you're strong enough, can only be improved by standing on a boat and this woman that I was telling you about, I mean, forget about things as complicated as that these older people who've had injuries and they got really weak, and they have trouble walking. So now you're telling this person to stand on one leg, which which has potential issues, as if that's going to help being able to stand on one leg is not going to help them walk, it's going to help them learn how to stand on one leg. Now unless they want to be a crane in Florida, they don't have to do that to improve their walking. They just have to improve their quad strength to improve the walking and then walk perform the skill that you want to get better at with your additional strength.

Mike 18:52

Well, if there's if there's limitations, and even in the simple act of walking in the simple act of walking, like like, just say, like an elderly person who shuffles oftentimes, and obviously absolutely right. If your quads in your hip flexors are strong, then you're going to lift your leg a little bit higher. So therefore you won't be shuffling so much like I while you were talking kind of sort of alluded to where I was going a little bit when I was like thinking is there a difference between an unstable because I agree with the the balance board creating an unstable situation, not an unstable surface, but an unstable situation on its own. And I'm thinking in its fundamental sense, where to end we're going into a common thing as balance for walking or balance for getting up or something like that. Finding your center of gravity, let's just talk about walking in it fundamentally, you're switching from one leg to the next leg to the next leg to the next leg and that is a skill. It's a motor skill. It's that it's

Adam 19:46

one way to practice that skill. If it's walking, then walk. There's nothing you can do other than walking to perfectly improve that skill.

Mike 19:54

But if you're but if you're having difficulty with that already, fundamentally if you're already an As I don't do anything on an unstable surface, but I create an unstable situation so they can have awareness of what it feels like to be on one leg. And all of the muscles that do fire which proprioceptively unconsciously, which guides you to shift your body slightly to in each direction. If you stand on one leg, you feel right. So everything's, everything's firing.

Adam 20:23

Yeah, I get what you're saying

Mike 20:24

involved in an involuntary way

Adam 20:26

yes

Mike 20:26

just sort of give you a little bit of awareness. Now, the thing is, I guess what I'm leading to I haven't done the full research or though I have seen studies that exist, that there are ways to train to improve those proprioceptive, that that firing, so you can actually maintain your, like, even if it's just standing on one leg, I mean, which is inevitably, a fundamental piece of it's happening very slowly, or rather quickly, in the process of walking

Adam 20:55

the skill, believe it or not, then this is this is the the big misconception that people have, they underestimate the power of motor learning. And even standing on one leg, even the act of knowing learning how to stand on one leg doesn't prepare you for the action of walking, because the two different motor skills, the only thing that standing on one leg does for you in is teach you how to walk on a stand on one leg. Again, you're much better off, strengthening the legs, and then learning how to walk now, if it is such a problem for somebody to walk, where you have to start breaking it down to the elements that you're talking about. They've already disqualified themselves from working out with us, as a trainer now starts getting into they need to work with an occupational therapist, if it's that hard for them, they have to work with a neurologist possibly, and really get down to why it is. So apps, if their strength is fine, then then you then that's what I was talking about all these other things that go into balance, there got to be some other issue.

Mike 21:56

I think I think there may be other issues, I think, and part of them are psychological.

Adam 22:02

And now he's talking about

Mike 22:04

but I'm talking about like, but I think is I think sometimes going back to progression, okay being walking, say progression level 10. And now we have a person who has no confidence in the ability to walk because they had a knee surgery, and they're 68 years old or something like

Adam 22:19

that. And that's why they go to occupational therapy, and they and they work with them. And then when they're ready through occupational therapy, they come to us and we finish the process by getting them strong as shit safely

Mike 22:29

I think is what I was saying to you did say something confidence, I think is part of

Adam 22:34

God. Now. Now Now we're getting something that we're going to agree on. Because I mentioned earlier that the psychological benefit, there's a psychological component of balance. All right, now, if some of these, there are some benign things we can do, planks, bird dogs, you know, those those also help not so much with balance, but they help with the small rotor, stabilize muscles of the spine, the rotary muscle, the spine and the multifidus, you know, so it's not so much the bird dogs and the planks that I have the problems with, it's really the unstable surfaces, even standing on a leg, even though I don't think it's going to help them walk from a motor skill point of view, standing on one leg and learning how to balance like that, or doing a one legged lunge safely, you know, and slowly and controlled with a TRX strap, possibly, I'm not, I'm not going to dismiss that completely out of hand. Because if somebody learns to do that, and they feel confident doing that, that confidence can kind of teach them to do other things, it gives them the confidence to do other things. So even though it's not going to actually help them walk per se, if that's what their problem is, it's going to give them the confidence to try walking because they're doing these things now like wow, look at me, I can stand on one leg and I was never able to stand one leg, you know, and that confidence goes a long way. It's almost like a placebo effect. You know, so So I don't know.

Mike 23:44

So therefore some if it's not something like a dangerous exercise

Adam 23:47

yeah

Mike 23:48

it's standing out, that's kind of where I'm leading into a little bit is a the confidence part. The other part is which

Adam 23:54

which, which can be huge, by the way

Mike 23:55

which I haven't, I've seen studies that exist, but I haven't really gotten to be able to do the deep dive into them that are sort of showing that there are connections between proprioception and motor learning if practiced if practiced and it starts with various things like even whay you were talking about

Adam 24:12

I don't think they're saying it transfers to other activities just for that particular activity again, you have I have no

Mike 24:18

perhaps Perhaps not right

Adam 24:19

So anyway, so So my ultimate point is not to not to bash you know, occupational therapy and some of the modalities they use for people that have injuries and all kinds of stuff is that but but we have to be we have to be very careful not pretend that we're neurologists or EMTs. Understand what our limitations are as trainers and we do something really good we get people strong and that goes a long way to helping somebody with their balance issues. And that might be just what they need. Most people like remember Tess Nakamura, we had this old client that always use a walking stick for confidence and we got her really strong by doing I wasn't doing anything other than leg press with this woman. Right and she worked out really hard as time went on. She was, she felt she didnt even need a walking stick, although she carried it just in case, she she felt a lot more stable on her feet. And I wasn't doing any of this crazy on stable servers and stuff, I was just giving her strength and maybe even the confidence of walking again. So So that's, that's our sweet spot. That's what we do best, we get people strong, and we get them strong without undermining their health and make it really safe. And we don't play around with things that Waste Time and that don't transfer to real skills. And again, if there's something that you want to do, like playing, standing on a leg or doing some of these things that are relatively benign, and really can't hurt you, and it helps build their confidence. I'm for it, I'm for it. But let's let's not get carried away with it. And I'm not talking about the things that I see you do with your clients, and that I even do sometimes to clients to help build confidence and give them awareness of one side, you know, having one side of that glutes fire versus another side and things like that. Those are all confidence builders that kind of makes them in touch with their body. And those are all good. But but that's not balance to me. That that's mind body connection, that opposites are different from balance

Mike 26:06

that you're saying the reason why I'm bringing it up is because I think what you just said, is how people get it confused. I think they're thinking balance

Adam 26:15

right

Mike 26:15

Really it is oftentimes it is a mind body connection that that sometimes isn't patterned correctly, you know that sometimes you either you're leaving something out, which is not letting you do something that you're trying to do or

Adam 26:29

Yeah

Mike 26:30

or and you even said it before you said like, in the course there's a chain of things that are going on, early on, and something could be broken in the chain. And and as trainers, I obviously the strength element is, is a big part of the whole thing. But it

Adam 26:46

can also be a new medication. You know, the thing is, there's a there's a very strong motor learning principle that's being ignored out there. And I just want people to be buyer beware when it comes to doing all these crazy things on unstable surfaces as if it's really going to do a better job for strengthening their core or do a better job of them going on a weekend trip on a boat. And they think they're going to do better on the book because they've been working on unstable surfaces. And that's really the big point. Especially the point where people lifting weights and doing all these kinds of dangerous moves on unstable surfaces is if it's going to help them on the athletic field or the tennis court.

Mike 27:19

That's unfortunate. Yeah. Well, before what was described, I mean thst is horrible

Adam 27:25

yeah, yeah. So so that's the big point. Let's not get let's not get fooled with this stuff.

Tim Edwards 27:32

Thanks, guys. Hey, if you're new to the podcast, and are just now learning about slow motion, high intensity strength training, and you want to try it for yourself, simply click the link in the shownotes to the inform fitness website. Once you're there, click the try us free button right there on their homepage, fill out the form, pick your location, and improve more than just your balance. With a slow motion high intensity full body workout in just 20 minutes for free. You'll feel great, I promise. If you're not near one of their several locations across the United States, Adam has a book titled power of 10. The once a week slow motion fitness revolution, pick it up today at a bookstore near you or to make it simple, it's just a click away and available at Amazon. That link will also be in the show notes. For less than about 15 bucks. You'll find some nutritional tips and a handy list of foods that support the power of 10 protocol, and some effective exercise demonstrations and you can perform in the comfort of your own home. Many great episodes on the way in the coming week. So please hit that subscribe button from whichever podcast app you might be listening. We have close to 50 episodes for you to binge listen, and if you don't mind, we'd appreciate it if you took some time to leave us a review. Until next time for Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers of inform fitness. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting Network.

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To accomplish your fat loss goals, the efforts don’t stop after your 20-30 minutes a week in the gym. Your habits in the kitchen are equally as important. You’ve heard it many times here on the podcast that if you want to lose fat, you can't out-exercise a bad diet.

The founder of InForm Fitness, Adam Zickerman and the general manager of the InForm Fitness location in NYC, Mike Rogers provide some easy-to-follow nutritional tips to expedite the results you are looking for.

45 D-I-E-T is a Four Letter Word Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

breakfast, carbs, people, salad, lunch, food, carbohydrates, dinner, little bit, grams, podcast, eggs, fitness, week, prepare, low carb diet, low carb, throw, easy, flavors

SPEAKERS

Tim Edwards, Mike, Adam

Adam 00:06

Instead of obsessing on the fact that you cant have all these carbohydrates that you crave or you cant have whatever it is that quote unquote, you're not allowed to have, you know, whether it be pizza or rice or pasta. Now you can pine for those things and dwell on the fact that you can't have any of that stuff. But how about instead of focusing on what you can't have, enjoy and focus, the things that you can have, because they're great choices, love the things you can have.

Tim Edwards 00:40

Inform nation This is episode 45 of the inform fitness podcast with New York Times best selling author, Adam Zickerman. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting network and a client of inform fitness. For almost 50 episodes, we have discussed the many benefits of participating in a slow motion, high intensity strength training protocol, like the one offered at several inform fitness locations across the country. One of those benefits of course, include weight or fat loss. To accomplish your fat loss goals, the efforts don't stop after your 20 to 30 minutes a weak and inform fitness gym, your habits, of course in the kitchen are equally as important. So if you want to lose weight, you've heard it many times here on the podcast that you can't out exercise a bad diet. So today, Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers, the general manager of the inform fitness location in New York City provides some easy to follow nutritional tips to expedite the results you're looking for.

Mike 01:35

Alright, well, this, this is gonna be an interesting podcast, I hope it's gonna be a little bit, it's gonna be a little bit different, but sort of cover it never know, it's gonna cover a little bit

Adam 01:45

of a little bit of this a little bit of that we're talking about food, and

Mike 01:49

it's gonna be a little bit of a food thing exactly

Adam 01:50

a pinch of this and a pinch of that

Mike 01:52

and a dash of this

Adam 01:53

teaspoon out here

Tim Edwards 01:56

Covering pillar number two, right nutrition.

Mike 01:58

Yeah, yeah, well, you know, something, you know, we talk about carbs in some other other podcasts. In the past, we've mentioned carbs. And we've got

Adam 02:07

ketogenic diet

Mike 02:08

the ketogenic diet, a big one we get from clients all the time, who try to tackle a no carb diet, a ketogenic diet, a paleo diet, a low carb diet. And sometimes, you know, I mean, the references are all over the internet, there's books everywhere to like, go into any of these things. But sometimes people are just, they're on the run, and they don't have time to get to these things, or they're just overwhelmed by all the content. So what we decided we wanted to do is do a quick podcast, and throw out some ideas to answer some of those questions. Because oftentimes be like, What can I have for breakfast? What can I have for lunch? What can I have for dinner, we just want to throw out some quick recipes, some quick ideas that are easy to prepare that don't take that much time. And I think will then accommodate the the no carb, or the low carb, whatever variation you're doing

Adam 02:52

so basically we want to say, alright, so the way you start with this low carb diet is everything opposite of Rachael Ray.

Tim Edwards 03:02

Now, guys, so the question I have is, so some of these tips that we're talking about today, are these for people who are looking to lose weight or sustain, or just to kind of support the power 10 workout?

Mike 03:13

Well, there's a lot of reasons why people go on no carb diet or low carb diets. It's not just I think the most, the typical reason is to lose fat, trying to drop fat. Um, I think just before we go into the recipes, you just want to talk just quickly about the relationship between carbohydrate intake, insulin and fat regulation.

Adam 03:33

But instead of talking really theory, I think what we want to talk about his really practical things more like you know, what to eat, basically, what does that entail me, we all talk about low carbs. What does that mean? Like I was having this conversation today with somebody about low carb and not really fully understanding. She's like, I mean, can I have any rice? And I have any alcohol? Can I have any? I mean, like, I was like, no, no, no, no, no.

Mike 03:54

I mean, like fruit or carbohydrates, right. All that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, something, the end all be all to someone's nutrition. I think it involves a lot of factors. And I think the reason why a lot of people do no carb or low carb diets is to control insulin, which is one part of the whole puzzle. And I think these suggestions are going to tackle that one piece of the puzzle, because I think for a lot of people like Tim, you just said that you've had some a few months of poor eating, and that you've got back onto the wagon, where you just cut out carbohydrates, and you lost six pounds recently. Well, that's the thing. I mean, I don't think that's going to answer all of your nutritional concerns or all of your health concerns. But it's it's a big piece of the puzzle. And I think just doing that gets the fat burning going. And well, I think we've kept we've tackled the why and the theory and the science in the past this one, let's just talk about what suggestions we can give you right off the bat.

Adam 04:51

Bring it home bring it all home.

Mike 04:53

Yeah, so I mean, really just diving right into it. Breakfast Ideas are I think this is the hardest thing for a lot of people able to get into because the most conventional breakfast food is very, very refined food, refined carbohydrate, carb heavy stuff.

Adam 05:09

So why don't we skip it?

Tim Edwards 05:11

Well, if you're if you're doing some intermittent fasting

Adam 05:19

part of it think part of weight, especially with for weight loss, I think a very powerful strategy is intermittent fasting. And I think the easiest meal to skip, at least for me and many others that I talk to is breakfast because a lot of people aren't really hungry as soon as they wake up and you're already like, eight hours are so into your fast, right, so you only have like eight hours ago. So if you're waking up like five, six in the morning, you know, you're already at 14 hours by late morning or early afternoon. That's doable as opposed to eating lunch and not having to eat dinner and like having to go to sleep hungry and like you know waking up absolutely famished. So I think if you're going to skip a meal, if intimate fasting, I think breakfast is the meal to skip not to mention what Mike was saying. It's hard to find a lot of low carb breakfast choices if especially if you don't like eggs, for example.

Mike 06:05

Yeah, that's the thing as people when they try to start doing something, but they don't want to do the fast yet, or something that resembles that people who do eat breakfast or want to have breakfast, they go to eggs, and they get tired of eggs very, very fast. And so pun intended. And I think where are the alternatives for that? I think I mean, you're you we do run into trouble with that because conventional breakfast options are involve toasts like a bacon egg and cheese sandwich.

Adam 06:34

So what's on your list here for breakfast foods?

Mike 06:36

You know something? I mean? Like it really it's it's right around eggs.

Adam 06:40

All right. Well, I got some suggestions besides eggs, by the way, because, you know, there are a lot of foods aren't just for lunch or dinner anymore. For some reason we can we've categorized certain foods for breakfast and certain foods for lunch and dinner. For example, we have always have some bone broth on the stove here for clients to enjoy. And very often. In the morning, I'll say you I want some chicken broth or some beef broth, like seven o'clock in the morning. No, thank you. I'm like, What's wrong with having some beef broth at seven o'clock in the morning? You know, it's fantastic. But some people just can't get their head around that but bacon, eggs and sausage, they can get their head around for breakfast. So like, it's just a psychological thing. So my point is, you know, there are a lot of things you can eat for breakfast that aren't necessarily classified as breakfast foods. I mean, like, I'll have a salad with tuna fish, for example, for breakfast, why not? You know, you can have a bit

Mike 07:33

that's the barrier and getting to that is I mean, if you're not going to do an omelet, which is your traditional breakfast option or something like that, or scrambled eggs or eggs Benedict or something like that. The other the other breakfast options are toast, bagels, pancakes, waffles, French toast, all those things are cereal, oatmeal is all carbs, carbs, carbs, carbs, carbs, carbs, and carbs,

Adam 07:55

and carbs.

Mike 07:57

Exactly. Sorry, I forgot about that. I will not miss that one next time. But the but the thing is, we'll get into lunches and dinners but leftover of the other meals are the nutrients you want to take in just to kind of erase some of those that you have to have breakfast for breakfast or what you imagined breakfast to be breakfast.

Tim Edwards 08:17

Well, part of that just the ritual that people have grown accustomed to right. And just abandoning the ritual of breakfast foods like Adam said, it's really no different if you what, you know, if you if you take a typical breakfast meal. If you look at the components of it, it's no different than what you're doing at lunch or dinner based upon your carbohydrate or protein.

Adam 08:37

I mean, like in the morning, you'll have breakfast sausage. In the afternoon you'll have Chorizo, both sausages.

Mike 08:44

I'll tell you what, though, people get crazy enough

Adam 08:46

Chorizo in the morning and you can't have breakfast sausage for lunch.

Mike 08:50

When we're up at the front and we're eating breakfast

Adam 08:51

see what happens

Mike 08:52

when we're up at the front eating breakfast in the morning. I oftentimes have a salad and people like salad for breakfast. And the thing is the association with like vegetables with breakfast is really like a crazy idea for everyone but it's like why not? Why the hell not? Yeah having them for lunch or having them for dinner? You have no problem having them like the salad with the chicken for lunch

Adam 09:13

pancakes for breakfast, why is that so good pancakes. I mean what's the what's the suffix of pancakes? Cake. You having cake for breakfast? I mean, why pancakes so special. There it's cake. You are not suppose to have cake for breakfast.

Tim Edwards 09:14

That's what a donut is for goodness sakes. on the other side of that too. You know, when you're not eating right to have tacos or a hamburger for breakfast? How is that any different than having hashbrowns with with sausage. You know, it's just the same. So just trying to abandon what that ritualistic breakfast mentality and bone broth. Gosh, that's perfect, especially if you're intermittent fasting as well.

Adam 09:53

Food is food.

Mike 09:54

I mean, seriously how I mean I think people get overwhelmed with the idea of say you're gonna prepare salad for work like say you're gonna do this at home right to try to save money or for whatever it's literally get some mixed greens or some spinach. You put it in a in a Tupperware, you chop a tomato that takes about, you know what, 25 seconds to chop a tomato, it takes, you know, a save big about

Adam 10:18

put an avocado in there

Mike 10:19

45 seconds to chop up an avocado, a little bit of cucumber,

Adam 10:23

and a leftover chicken breast right from from dinner the night before boom done.

Mike 10:26

It's an easy thing

Adam 10:27

thats your breakfast the next day.

Mike 10:28

Exactly. And you know, something like, you know, go to Whole Foods, every Whole Foods. Now, what I this is something I do at least a once every two weeks. Sometimes every week is for 7.99 you can get a rotisserie chicken, you have like the legs for lunch one day, and then take a few minutes, chop up the rest, add some celery, a little bit of mayonnaise, and you could have chicken salad on top of a salad for dinner later that night. And for breakfast and lunch the next day. The thing is, I think you can get tired if you're having that all the time. But it's very easy, very inexpensive, very easy thing to prepare food option

Tim Edwards 11:01

and notice that you said mayonnaise as well with the chicken a little bit of mayonnaise, but people would think of mayo as an absolute no, no. In a diet

Adam 11:15

But the thing about Mayo is it's a fat, it's known as a fat right, so everyone's so scared of fat. So I'm not worried about mayo. Especially the mayonnaise that's not made with canola oil, like Hellman's. But the mayonnaise that's made nowadays with avocado oils, and all these kinds of oils that are not refined oils like canola oil, these things are great. So I'm not we're not afraid of mayonnaise, you know, so you want to put a little mayonnaise with your hard boiled eggs? Or

Mike 11:40

if you're trying to avoid carbs, Mayo doesn't qualify. That's right.

Adam 11:43

Yeah Yeah, Mayo is good, mayo is fat and that's good,

Mike 11:46

I should say it qualifies to eat. Yeah.

Tim Edwards 11:50

And that reminds me of the episode that we had several weeks back regarding the American Heart Association. Right. And and the some of the bogus claims that have and are continuing to be made?

Adam 12:03

Well, again, you know, we kind of feel that fat must be bad for us. So we start manipulating data just to support our bias, fat can't be good for you. Right? And that bias is exactly that a bias and science does not bore that out. You know, science has not shown that fat is what's the cause of cardiovascular disease as much as as much as society for some reason wants that to be the truth, just so far has not been shown to be the truth

Mike 12:32

that that thing is it's getting thrown out as something that is an absolute no, no. And the thing is, your your biomarkers could be dictated by a lot of different things, fat may need to be dosed properly, you may not you may there may be a certain amount of it that you should or shouldn't be eating for your overall health

Adam 12:40

calories. So Mike's weve established that we are skipping breakfast so so now let's get to lunch. what what do you talk about and what do you eat and what do you recommend for your clients for lunch, to make things simple.

Mike 13:01

for me, Once again, a big mixture of vegetables with a protein it's oftentimes what I prepared last night for dinner and I make enough to go to lunch again, it's a it's there's really nothing that needs to be specific for any time of the day. The easy things for people who go to work all the time. Oftentimes if they didn't prepare their stuff, a best thing the best thing to do is get a piece of salmon get a piece of chicken with some asparagus with some sauteed mushrooms with a side salad that type of thing or get a chopped salad. I mean I know this is not a mystery to everybody but the thing is, I think you just got to develop a habit of doing this type of things you got to get rid of feeling like a sandwich is necessary and all that kind of stuff.

Tim Edwards 13:40

well. You mentioned chop salad you know we I go to Subway a lot actually I love their chop salad. I think it's actually like the perfect lunch for me and it's filling as well. Yeah, yeah,

Mike 13:48

the thing is, most of my routine stuff is I prepare a big my wife and I we cook a relatively big dinner or you cook stuff that we could actually have for the next day or two and it whether it's breakfast, lunch or dinner, it really doesn't matter to me I throw it in the Tupperware and I have it I

Adam 14:04

like that frittata you were telling me about.

Mike 14:05

that's another thing.

Adam 14:07

That's a great thing but we're back to eggs again but again eggs are not just for breakfast either. So Mike had this for frittata you know that was made in like this. You know nine inch pie pan you know and you cut it like a pie and you know he portioned it out for himself all week.

Mike 14:20

I had I literally had on Sunday, Monday Tuesday Wednesday and it honestly it's, it's also just for whatever reason I know it's eggs and vegetables but in the context of what you're eating. It really tastes like you know, like a little piece of pizza you know

Adam 14:36

eats it cold too which is actually good

Tim Edwards 14:38

and it sounds filling too with all of that protein in there.

Mike 14:41

It was filling I mean, you know

Adam 14:42

it is

Mike 14:43

it is it was it was it was great. I actually

Adam 14:45

mayonnaise on top of it too.

Mike 14:51

Going back to like quick things you can get at the grocery store if you have a Trader Joe's or something like that, like my wife and I have been recently making like a like an Asian Style steak on top of cauliflower rice. And

Adam 15:04

what does Asian style mean?

Mike 15:06

I think there's, there's sesame, there's some ginger, there's some teriyaki flavors and things like that. Oftentimes, a teriyaki marinade is probably actually a high carbohydrate.

Adam 15:18

Food. Yes, stay away from the teriyaki.

Mike 15:20

But yes, but you know, something, I think, I mean, is it a no carb, that's not a no carb option, but you know something, I think if you just coat it in that look for in a plastic bag the meat on with a marinade and then you take it out and then you cook it, you're mostly just getting flavors. And I would say that the carb count is still going to be extremely low, despite the fact that you are having a sweet marinate on the beef.

Tim Edwards 15:46

Well, you just mentioned carb count, let's we didn't really start with that and what is a good carb count? Or is that specific to each individual

Adam 15:55

that's specific, but there's a range I mean, I would say to really consider low carb you'd have to stay anywhere between 50 grams 40 grams of carbohydrate carbohydrates on the low side and not much more than 100 grams on the high side that and 100 grams is a lot for a lot of people but some people can tolerate that especially if they're very active. You know so I would say start with like 75 grams see how that works for you and then work your way up or down

Tim Edwards 16:23

and or you're including the carbs in the in vegetables as well to not

Adam 16:28

I mean, you'd have to eat like a pound you can eat that much broccoli to overdose on carbs on the other hand, you know you can easily overdose on on on bananas, which is a fruit I know it's not a vegetable but fruits you know a lot of people don't realize how starchy a banana even an Apple has like 20 some odd grams

Mike 16:47

last time I checked this out this past week I owed my au pair who's you know making efforts to try to lose to lose weight a little bit and she got amazing I love her to death but totally misinformed on what was what she made a shake and it comprised two apples one regular size banana, ice and water and I said and I just I just quickly referenced a jar of peanut butter a medium sized Apple is about 19 grams of carbohydrate and and so she had two of those that's 38 right there. And then she had a banana which is 40 grams over her limit she weighed like 52 grams of carbs I said I said you realize theres more grams of carbohydrate there that that is a Snickers bar and she was stunned I said I said you you're getting vitamins, you're getting nutrients, you're getting fiber, lots of good things that your body does want but you're you're putting way too much sugar into this diet right now and so we I helped her modify that to a smaller degree. But um other little quick suggestions once again this could qualify as lunch and dinner very easy thing like having like turkey meatballs, which you get prepared either at the deli or somewhere you got the bread crumbs without you know without or very little bread crumbs very little.

Adam 17:59

My wife says when she makes meatballs, are there any bread crumbs in it

Mike 18:03

very little there's very little

Adam 18:05

I mean, why do you have to use it? Don't worry about I didn't put that much in there.

Mike 18:09

Depending on your goals. Sometimes you have to be very conscious of what these counts are. And other times I think a little bit not going to kill you on any of these All right, and you're putting that turkey meatballs or regular meatballs on top of Zucchini Spaghetti is just a great thing and you could you could do that with a tomato sauce. You could do that with garlic and olive oil and it's just that is very easy. takes no time to saute that.

Tim Edwards 18:31

and tastes really good. That sounds great.

Adam 18:34

hey that's kosher.

Mike 18:34

Zucchini put through a spiralizer or the vegetti and you make it looks like pasta. Like Dan and I Dan's one of the other trainers here and I we what we create what's called a meat bucket. Like well, I'll like I'll cook like 15 chicken thighs, you know and they would chop it all up throw it in a big Tupperware and have it for breakfast lunch and dinner over the course of three days. You know, Yeah. mix it in with sauteed peppers and onions. You know, you could do steak fajitas chicken fajitas and stuff, you know, on top of beds of lettuce, you know, fajitas, you mean without the tacos. without the tacos or the tortillas. It's just basically a fajita salad. But it's really just things like that. But this My point is it really if you go to the market and you have these ingredients, it really takes almost no time to prepare these things. And you're getting a protein you get some fish you know they baking some salmon doesn't take that long.

Adam 19:34

It's funny, I talk to people all the time I'm making this making that and they think I have they look at me like I have 10 heads on my shoulders because like yeah, just there was some salmon in the oven. You know, it only takes 10 minutes

Mike 19:44

salt, pepper. Garlic powder.

Adam 19:46

Are you kidding me? I'm not gonna do that. I mean, I gotta go get the damn salmon, how am I gonna do that. You know?

Mike 19:53

Yes. I mean, it's, you then go get the damn salmon

Tim Edwards 19:58

it's the same as getting the the Steak, or the chicken, right? I mean, how hard is salmon to find?

Adam 20:04

People have fear of cooking fish, and I understand

Tim Edwards 20:06

I get it Yeah,

Mike 20:07

you know, everybody has particularities, you got to find it. I mean, and that's it, you know, I mean, I mean, some some I have a client, who I'm thinking of at the moment who hates I say, Oh, why don't you try this, I hate that. I hate mushrooms. I hate broccoli. I hate zucchini. I hate tomatoes.

Adam 20:23

She's a good candidate for fasting then.

Tim Edwards 20:28

If look at your food is as as medicine and not you know, we don't always have to look at our meals, like this is going to be something I'm going to enjoy. Yeah, from time to time, but, but just look at it as fuel or almost as medicine and then you're full and you move on to the next meal. It's just that simple.

Adam 20:44

I don't ask people to do that. I mean, I just we have a trainer down in Virginia that is like that, I mean, he honestly has no emotional attachment to food at all.

Tim Edwards 20:52

That would be nice.

Adam 20:54

At all.

Tim Edwards 20:54

Wow

Adam 20:55

to him is purely fuel, honestly. And I was like, I'm a little envious of that. But then again, I'm not because I enjoy food so much. And you can still the way I look at it, as opposed to saying, you know, look at food as fuel. Because that that's a tall task when you've grown up in a family that you know and you know, you're adult and food was the center of your universe and your familial and your friends get together

Tim Edwards 21:20

Im Italian and I know all about what you're talking about. It is true. It is a part of your

Adam 21:24

However, however, I think of I think its a Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young song you know, who sings? If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you with?

Tim Edwards 21:34

You nailed it. You nailed it.

Adam 21:35

I did, right? Okay, so that's how I look at it. Like, instead of obsessing on the fact that you can have all these carbohydrates that you crave or you can have whatever it is that quote unquote, you're not allowed to have, you know, whether it be pizza, or rice or pasta. You know, you can you can pine for those things and dwell on the fact that you can't have any of that stuff. But how about instead of focusing on what you can't have, enjoy and focus, the things that you can have, because there are great choices that you can have, and love the one you're with, that's where I get this from. So instead of, you know, pining for the one you cant have, love the things you can have, and put your attention on that that's easier than just looking at food as fuel. I mean, now if you just think about what you want, and what you can enjoy, like I enjoy meatloaf, you know, without the bread crumbs over a bed of spaghetti squash. I love a slow cook brisket. grass fed brisket with you know with a side of cauliflower rice to suck up the sauce. You know, cauliflower rice is like a staple in our house at this point,

Mike 22:42

we have it we have it at least three times a week,

Adam 22:44

the catch is that you probably have to prepare a little bit more to enjoy these foods. And that that's the catch I guess it's hard to just do take out all the time and adhere to this but it'd be take a little time you do what Mike suggested and prepare food over the weekend that things that can last like like a brisket, you know, you put a six pound brisket in a Dutch oven and you got you got yourself or a stew of some sort or chili of some sort. Now you have that it's a gift that keeps on giving or frittata you make hard boiled eggs you keep keep a dozen hard boiled eggs in a fridge and make egg salad out or make if you're ambitious, make some deviled eggs. And God forbid you put a little bit of sweet relish in there, it's not gonna you know,

Mike 23:22

it's a small investment that gets you your time back throughout the week is to do something that you could actually prepare,

Adam 23:27

you know, Mike, I have a couple of more examples that I can use them for my book power of 10. And if you don't like eggs, by the way, some plain yogurt, full fat yogurt, you know, and put some real fruit in there like blueberries or raspberries if they're in season. All right, any of the nut butters would be great. You know put that on some vegetable like celery or things that you know cat whatever, you know, just some kind of vegetable that you like the spread on all the time. Yeah, you know, just try to avoid putting your peanut butter on like, you know, bread and bagels, nuts, all kinds of nuts, preferably ones that arent coated in sugar. You know, we mentioned hard boiled eggs, another breakfast food that I like, is cottage cheese and I put a little bit of pineapple in there and again, you know a couple of slices of pineapples, a strong flavored fruit so you don't need a lot of pineapple to get the flavor you need. So you'd have a couple of little little those little wedges of pineapple in your in your cottage cheese. That's a good breakfast and it's not going to throw you over 50 grams of carbohydrates.

Mike 24:29

Not that this is relevant to the podcast but I just wanted to say that cottage cheese is on the shortlist of things I just can't stand in the world.

Adam 24:37

I don't like cottage cheese. Funny thing

Mike 24:39

everybody else more for you you enjoy it.

Adam 24:41

Yeah, exactly. But I don't like cottage cheese either unless it has honestly it can only have pineapple with it or else I won't like it. Alright another good thing a turkey wrap like two or three slices of fresh turkey wrapped in some romaine lettuce or some kind of lettuce, maybe some mustard, maybe throw a slice of, you know a small thin slice of Swiss cheese in there. That'd be great. As some of my colleagues here love sardines, opening up a can of sardines, if you like sardines, go for it. That's not my bag. But you know, stuff like that.

Mike 25:12

Love that. But you guys are aware of your neighbors

Tim Edwards 25:14

a lot of salt too right.

Adam 25:16

Yeah, spices, use spices is another suggestion. There's a new book out that I want to tell you about. I'm actually and this is not to promote me. But I love this book. It's called the spice diet. Alright, so it was like Mike said earlier, you know, let's face it, you know, there's chicken there's beef, there's fish, fish, vegetables. I mean, we know what they are that unless you're in some weird part of the world, you know, that that eats other things besides those things, you know, so it's always eating the same things, all kinds of vegetables, right? So the thing is, note you can change, you can change the spices, the way you cook these things. There's a book called The spice diet by Chef Judson Todd Allen. He is the private chef for Steve Harvey. And Steve Harvey actually wrote the foreword to this book. And I was asked to write the exercise part to this book, so actually, I'm actually in his book. But that's not what I'm recommending it. It's just a great way to use flavor to, you know, to fight cravings. And to kind of change things up a little bit, even though you're always having chicken. So I recommend you picking up that book. It's fantastic

Tim Edwards 26:23

and Adam, we'll have a link to that in the show notes. And it's also that book is available on Audible too, and new sponsor of the inform fitness podcast. So we'll go ahead and include links to that in the show notes.

Adam 26:33

Fantastic. So anyway, spice use spices to change things around. And the reason I thought of that, because you know, like broccoli is boring, right? But if you put sesame oil on it, some broccoli, some garlic, some salt, some pepper, you know, you throw in some walnuts in there. That tastes good, you know, so So walnuts and broccoli, combining nuts and vegetable is always a fantastic thing to do. And it makes things a little bit more interesting. Baked Chicken, rotisserie chicken or baked chicken. You can spice that up many different ways to change it around with it. But you know what I you know, I love chicken with a little bit of honey

Tim Edwards 27:09

that's an interesting combo. Never heard of that before

Adam 27:11

call me blasphemous. You know, honey is a carb, obviously, it's pure sugar. But the thing about honey is that you don't need a lot of it again. And again, if you're generally a very low carb diet, if you put some honey

Mike 27:22

that's a Southern Fried chicken there

Adam 27:24

if you do the fried chicken, in a little bit of honey, you know, it adds a little bit of sweetness, but you're not going over the gram count.

Mike 27:33

That's right, I think I think having a few flavors that are a little bit sweet. As long as you keep them very minimal, you're not going to break the bank oftentimes.

Adam 27:41

So there are some examples that you're going to find in my book.

Tim Edwards 27:46

And the book of course, is power of 10, the once a week slow motion fitness revolution, pick it up today at a bookstore near you, or it's just a click away and available at Amazon. There will be a link for the book in the show notes. For less than about 15 bucks, you'll find some additional nutritional tips and a handy list of foods that support the power of 10 protocol discussed here in the podcast. You'll also find some effective exercise demonstrations so you can perform these exercises in the comfort of your own home. Or if you live close to one of the several inform fitness locations across the country. There's a free workout waiting for you. Simply click the link in the show notes to their website informfitness.com. Click the try us free button right there on the homepage. Fill out the form, pick your location, and enjoy a slow motion high intensity full body workout in just 20 minutes for free. You'll feel great at the time of this recording. It's been about say four or so hours since my last workout and I feel amazing. You will too. If you're a new listener to the podcast, we appreciate that and would invite you to please hit subscribe in whichever podcast app you might be listening. We have close to 50 episodes for you to binge Listen, with more coming almost every single week. We'd also appreciate it if you took a couple of moments to leave us a review. Until next time for Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers of inform fitness. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting Network.

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At the time of this recording we are smack dab in the middle of the 2018 Winter Olympics and a lot of us are camped out in front off the TV cheering on the Americans in their favorite winter sports, like ice hockey, figure skating, snowboarding, and skiing just to name a few, while others are actually headed to the ice or to the slopes themselves.
So how does all that tie into a podcast about slow-motion, high-intensity strength training? Though you may not find Olympic athletes training at the several InForm Fitness facilities across the US, Mike and Adam have heard numerous reports from their clients how the Power of Ten Protocol has shown significant results to improve a skiers performance and endurance while enjoying their time on the mountain.

44 High-Intensity Strength Training for Skiers Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

skiing, high intensity exercise, endurance, strength training, skiers, adam, body, ski, high altitude, podcast, high intensity, bike, oxygen, strength, create, fitness, energy, muscles, high intensity training, ability

SPEAKERS

Tim Edwards, Mike, Adam

Adam 00:06

skiing is demanding skiing. downhill skiing is a very fast twitch, anaerobic kind of activity. So that strength you're getting in your legs, it stands out more when you're doing that type of activity. downhill skiing is similar to weight training, high intensity weight training, where you have brief bouts of high intensity

Tim Edwards 00:29

Hey, inform nation good to be back with you again. Thanks for joining us for episode 44 of the inform fitness podcast with New York Times bestselling author Adam Zickerman and general manager of the Manhattan inform fitness location Mike Rogers. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting network. And at the time of this recording, we are smack dab in the middle of the 2018 Winter Olympics, and a lot of us are camped out in front of the TV cheering on the Americans and their favorite winter sports like ice hockey, figure skating, snowboarding and skiing just to name a few, while others are actually headed out to the ice or to the slopes themselves. So how does all this tie into a podcast about slow motion high intensity strength training? Well, though you may not find Olympic athletes training at the several inform fitness locations across the US. Adam and Mike have heard numerous reports from their clients. How the power of 10 protocol has shown significant results to improve a skiers performance and endurance while enjoying their time on the map.

Mike 01:28

Every year, we receive testimonials about how this 20 minute workout really changes our lives. And one of the common ones I get is from downhill skiers. I'd say it's February now and perhaps it's too late to get the skiers this season. But I think we need to address it

Adam 01:45

and we still have spring skiing coming next. Right?

Mike 01:47

That's true. Somewhere in the world. You're skiing somewhere.

Adam 01:51

But that's right. You know, if you go down to South America, during our summer you can still ski in Santiago, Chile.

Mike 01:58

Exactly. So I guess no matter what year we're doing this, okay. And, or what time of the year

Tim Edwards 02:04

but you have a lot of skiers

Adam 02:06

it's six o'clock somewhere.

Mike 02:07

And in this podcast, I'm going to be the questioner and I'm going to I'm going to interview Adam about

Adam 02:12

and I'll be the obliger

Mike 02:14

the obliger yeah

Tim Edwards 02:15

right. Gretchen would be proud.

Mike 02:17

I'll be I'll be the upholder.

Adam 02:19

If you don't know what I meant by that, check out our podcast with Gretchen Rubin.

Tim Edwards 02:22

That's right, right.

Mike 02:24

Anyway, but the big things are that we want to think about are why does it make such a profound difference for skiers performance? Why is strength training so important for skiers? And And why does this form of weight training the power of 10? Why does that take it to a much higher level? First of all, Adam, you used to ski and now you're a snowboarder, right?

Adam 02:44

I went to the dark side

Mike 02:45

Mm hmm. How long? How long did you ski for by the way,

Adam 02:48

it's about 13 14 years old, right after my Bar Mitzvah. I took one of those high school group trips, and I was skiing every year till I was, like 40. And for the last 13 years, I've been snowboarding, I haven't looked back,

Tim Edwards 03:03

what was that transition like? I mean, it's, it's really, I would assume completely different.

Adam 03:09

It is really different. And I spent five days literally on my butt. And it was probably, which amounted to probably 7500 Push Ups.

Tim Edwards 03:22

Getting back up?

Adam 03:23

that's how you get it, like you just didn't push it just to get yourself up off the ground. You do. I mean, so, you know, we can make this relevant to what we're about to talk about, which is, you know, I was only because I was in really good shape that I was out actually able to withstand the brutal nature of learning how to snowboard matter of fact, so many middle aged adults have talked to me about possibly taking up snowboarding or talking to me about they tried taking up snowboarding at a later age. And quite honestly, that a lot of people have given up because it's just too hard to kind of transition because they just couldn't, couldn't get up after a while they were they're really too weak to just continue to learn because you fall so much until you finally get the hang of it. And once you get the hang of it the learning curve, it's actually kind of easier than skiing. Again, you know, I skied a long time and I was, you know, an advanced skier, but but I wasn't. I was doing everything I was going to do on skiing. I was not a great skier. I was a very good skier, but not a great skier. And I just kind of felt like I wanted to try something new. And I was I was challenged to do that by somebody who invited me to the place at Sun Valley. And like, he said, Listen, you can stay at my place, but you're going to snowboard, like, that's a deal. And that's how it happened. Anyway, so I really owe me being in really good shape to being able to endure all the falling that I endured, you know, four or five days until

Mike 04:48

that guy was by the way 60 When he started snowboarding.

Adam 04:51

that invited me True. He went to the other side.

Mike 04:56

You know, but you know, getting back on track the reason why this piqued my interest. And why I wanted to talk about this today is because over the years, we have heard so many rants and raves about people who, you know, they started are the power of 10. And they come here, they work out for three months or four months, and then they go and do skiing as they do every year. And I'm not kidding, I've heard this at least 15 or 20 times over the years with this expression, night and day, he said, it's literally night and day from the last time they went skiing to this time. And they said, there's that was the major change they did was our type of, of strength training. So that's why I wanted to focus on why strength training helps for skiing, and what specifically about a power of 10 Really, really can take it to the next level.

Tim Edwards 05:45

And Mike, before we go down that road, you said that it's night and day is it night and day in their technique or and how they respond to falling

Mike 05:53

strength and endurance, their ability to, to spend more time out there, feeling like they can actually spend more time on the mountain, and just a level of stability to do this specific task. I haven't heard it from snowboarders. Most of our clients are skiers. But, you know, we'll talk to Adam about that as we as we go. But Adam, I don't I'm not crazy. I mean, like, I'm not the only one who's heard this.

Adam 06:17

No, I mean, I've heard over the years, so many times, I mean, again, if they started with us in the offseason, and then ski season comes along, and then they come back, they're holy cow, I've never felt so good on slopes before. And they're, they're, you know, weekend warriors, people that ski you know, three, four times a year maybe. So they know how they feel usually after the day of skiing, and they come back saying I just had more stamina than I ever had. And this whole topic speaks to the idea of thinking that you need to do conventional cardio for this type of thing versus strength training. And it's really all about what our interview with Dr. Gibala was about. Alright, that there's a one minute workout. Again, intensity is why it gives us our endurance, as Dr. Gibala has found out in his research. And what we're finding out anecdotally with our clients that are doing this, and then going skiing at high altitude, by the way, so you have that adjustment to deal with. And we're going to talk about that because actually high intensity training actually can help you with high altitude, just the way your body adjusts to high altitude, high intensity training actually has that same effect, which we'll get into. But again, this is all because their muscles and their energy systems, if you will, are primed for this activity, even though they haven't skied in a year, but their legs are getting really strong. And they have an ability to utilize energy better than if they weren't training because the reason we bonk when we go skiing after not, you know not working out and going to these high altitudes is our body is not our body has to use all kinds of energy sources that you're not using when you're just sedentary at sea level. But if you're doing high intensity training, those energy systems are being utilized and primed. So when you go up to high altitude, it's already primed. And you don't have to adjust anymore. It's done. It's been done.

Mike 08:07

Well, let's let's let's we're gonna get into that. But like first, let's get into strength, okay, and fitness, what we do. And first of all, let's relate it to skiing, what posture is what positions are involved in skiing, and inevitably, what muscles are we using when we're skiing, what's involved,

Adam 08:24

it's a full body is a full body thing. But obviously, your quads, I mean, your lower back and your quads, you're constantly just squatting the whole time down the mountain, which is your glutes, and your quadriceps and hamstrings to extent and obviously, really strong quads and legs are going to help you a lot. And that's partly what's happening here.

Mike 08:44

Yeah,

Adam 08:45

you're getting really strong in what we do here. We're doing leg presses, we're doing squats, doing leg extensions, we're doing hamstring curls. These are the movements that strengthen your legs. So that's the answer that succinctly

Mike 08:58

Yeah like that's, I mean, inevitably, I was gonna lead you into, are we recruiting core muscles? And what about upper body as you said before, you know, you're you know, you have to push yourself up, when you fall down, maybe you have to withstand a fall, you know, and you know, have the upper body strength to to fall a little bit better, you know, or a little bit more efficiently or just have the strength to not fall on your shoulder or your head for example. But um,

Adam 09:23

yeah, I mean, the whole body is involved in skiing, there's no doubt about it, especially your core, I mean, you're twisting, you're torquing your body, you're pivoting around your hips, you know, it's a full body exercise, but you know, it's Interestingly though, the better you are at skiing the less effort becomes because you're better at it you become much more skilled at being efficient and not straining your muscles as much unless of course you're doing you know, pure mogul runs, which there's no way around around that you really got to use your body but

Mike 09:51

you know, the testimonials that I've heard over the years going back to what I said before was usually all these are very experienced skiers people who already they're not taking lessons, they've already had the technique down, they've been doing it for a long time. And when I said night and day before, he said, it's unbelievable how much stronger I feel. And we're talking 50 year old 60 year olds, and even, you know, 70 year olds who are telling me this stuff. So and that's the reason why we want to like a tackle it. But do we have to consider balance? Or the you know, the ability to maintain our center of gravity? Is there anything from a fitness perspective that we should attack in order to address that idea?

Adam 10:31

The short answer is, I don't think so. I really don't think so. It's a controversial answer. And question. I mean, you have training places and philosophies all over the place, mentioning that you need to work on your bounce work on one leg and shifting and mimic the sport of skiing by using those slides that they have going back and forth. All kinds, all kinds of things like that. There's a big problem with that, because the body that that skill that you're doing in a gym doesn't transfer from a motor skill point of view to the mountain. So my philosophy has been for a while and it stays this way, because hasn't been proven out to be otherwise, quite honestly. And that is just strengthen, strengthen your body. And then if you want to become a better skier, a better nuanced skier, you got to ski, there's no way around that you have to ski. So the combination of strength training in the gym, well, you're not doing anything to mimic skiing, because there is no way to really mimic skiing. Not exactly. And that's what it has to be it has to be exactly that. Because anything you do that looks like skiing is it's just not going to prepare you motor skill wise for the actual thing to the brain, it's completely different, even though to you it seems similar, but the brain is completely different activity. And this has been tested. And up until now, it's still hasn't been proven out. So all these ideas that you should do it is really based on anecdotal or just a belief that just has to be true, because it doesn't make sense that it's not true. But just because you have a belief, and it makes sense doesn't mean it's actually true. I mean, that's why you have scientific methods, because a lot of these instincts that we have, are very often proven wrong when when properly tested. So what I think should be done is safe strength training for all the muscles involved, according to the muscle and joint function, and then go do your sport, in this case, ski. And the reason people are saying they're feeling really good is because they just have that general strength, they already have the skills, if they're only skiing, you know, if they're not living in Colorado and not skiing that much, you know, they rely on their skills they develop, you know, once you ride a bike, you know, forget, right. So, you know, once you're a good skier, they can tell that, wow, you know, usually when I ski for the first time in the year, I gotta quit by one o'clock now I'm lasting until two, three o'clock, the next day, I can actually go back out again, the next day, you know, I'm noticing a difference, I can really hang in there a lot longer. A story that I experienced when my brother got married, he got married up in Aspen, and we went mountain biking, and I hear I'm mountain biking sea level, and then we go up there I think Aspen's like 8000 9000 feet up. And these Colorado guys are inviting me to go mountain biking man. And I'm like, oh, boy, you know, you know, I'm, I'm here I am, you know, running his little little Catskill hills, you know, in New York. And now I got to go these real mountains at 8000 feet. I said, alright, I'll try it. You know, I'm not one to turn down a challenge like that. So I went, to my amazement, I hung in there three quarters of the way. For three quarters of the ride, I was right there with them. I couldn't believe it. I did bonk at the end. But like all of them were amazed. I hung in there with them as long as I did. There's no doubt in my mind. The reason was because I prepared at sea level, I was strength training, I was doing a lot of strength training, as I always did. And I was riding but that was more of a skill than anything else. And my body is prepped to work at high altitude as a result of a high intensity training

Mike 13:57

that sort of leads us into endurance. And, you know, like, I kinda want to sort of differentiate between the word strength and endurance. I think sometimes this gets confused among a lot of people, including trainers.

Adam 14:09

Yes, right. It's kind of like power, right? You can how much you can lift at one time real explosive movements, really how much? You know, that that's strength? You know? Could you could you lift your luggage into overhead or not? It takes strength. How much strength do you have? How heavy can however you can you lift a bag? How have you got bag B before you can not lift it over your head? That's strength and endurance is more like how long can you last? And that comes again, from really high intensity strength training as again that the episode was Martin Gibala was about one minute workout. It was a high intensity workout that for a very brief period of time, that created some physiological change that gave you endurance. All right, he noticed. And we noticed that just because the workouts are very short, but intense, you can build endurance meaning you can last longer for an activity. Well hod did that happen, because you're not doing endurance training. And you're only doing brief high intensity training. So how did you build endurance from doing something very brief? Well, because endurance comes from not doing steady state activities for a long period of time, it comes from your body, being able to utilize different sources of energy, when you're not trained, when you're not doing high intensity exercise, your body is pretty much using, you know, glycolysis, and aerobic metabolism through the Krebs cycle on a regular basis, these are our most common ways of using energy. But when you are doing high intensity exercise, and when you are doing endurance athletics, what happens is, your demands exceed the capabilities of just glycolysis and the Krebs cycle our two main ways of producing energy. But when you're doing high intensity exercise, your body starts realizing oh shoot, my current ways of creating energy by qolsys, in the Krebs cycle, are not adequate enough. So the body says, Okay, no problem, because we have other ways of getting energy, except it's gonna take me a little time to get that up to snuff, it's kind of like, you know, you're you're relying on oil heat in your house, but it gets really cold. And now you have to start using a fireplace and on top of the oil heat, but the thing is, you don't have any wood. So you have to go get wood, because you haven't used your fireplace in like 10 years. But now you know, it's getting cold this winter, right, all of a sudden, they Hey, maybe we should use our fireplace, but you haven't used it in 10 years. So you have to go clean it out, you got to get the chimney sweep in there, you got to go cut some wood or buy some wood depending upon where you live. And that might take some time to get that up to snuff. Well, your body, if they're not using these other energy systems for years, and all of a sudden, you're requiring the body to do these endurance activities, your body will have to like say, Okay, we got to incorporate some more energy systems. So that's what happens when you're doing high intensity exercise. And you're exceeding the limits of your current energy suppliers, the Krebs cycle, and glycolysis, which work very closely together, then all of a sudden, other things start developing that your body is so really endurance comes from, Mike endurance comes from your body helping out and supporting your basic energy system. Alright, it's adding to and helping out the Krebs cycle and glycolysis, just like the fireplace kind of helps, adds more heat to your to your house because the oil heaters are just not cutting it

Mike 17:23

right

Adam 17:23

And those systems, you know, we can get into biochemistry, it's called the court, you know, the core recycle fatty, your body gets better at metabolizing fats. So like if you're not really working out high intensity, and you're also eating maybe a higher carbohydrate diet, your body is not using fat for fuel. And the thing is, your body just doesn't all of a sudden start using fat for fuel body has to prepare for that there are enzymes, special enzymes that are needed to burn fat for fuel. So if your body isn't needing fat for fuel, they don't create the enzymes for it. So all of a sudden, you go on a low carbohydrate diet, you start doing high intensity exercise, your body's like, Whoa, I need to start using fat for fuel. So next thing you know, it starts expressing the genes to create the enzymes necessary for fat metabolism. It starts expressing for the genes that are responsible for the cori cycle, which is another metabolic system that utilizes lactic acid actually takes lactic acid turns that into energy. Actually

Mike 18:15

the reason why I was asking is like, and I want to go back to skiing in general here. Okay, I want to get back to that specificity. Because, like, I have, we have cyclists, we have runners, we have tennis players, we have bikers, we have swimmers, we have so many people who, who do all different types of sports, they all generally have a report that they're cycling is better, their golf is better, their runnings better, all that kind of stuff. But it's not as dramatic as skiing. It's not as dramatic that people like the testimonials are significantly higher among skiers. And what I'm talking about is, what's the difference between the endurance, the ability to last longer on the mountain, versus the ability to last longer on a bike or noticing that your strength training has made a difference on the bike versus your strength training has made a difference for skiing.

Adam 19:01

Because I think when you're doing like biking or doing things like that, you're not going all out, you know, you're it's a nice stroll. So you'll notice that when you're skiing and you're going downhill skiing, and you're challenging yourself. For about two minutes. You are like doing high intensity exercise, you know, like you're you're pushing yourself, your thighs catch on fire right away. But when you're biking, unless you're going uphill and you're really pushing yourself you're just strolling around. So I don't think you notice as much skiing is demanding skiing. downhill skiing is a very fast twitch, anaerobic kind of activity. So that strength you're getting in your legs, you know, I think it stands out more when you're doing that type of activity. You know, downhill skiing is similar to weight training, high intensity weight training, where you have brief bouts of high intensity.

Mike 19:44

Is there a difference though, between sustaining like a squat position versus cycling your legs? Like for the amount of time say like you're actually cycling your legs that are medium to high level of intensity versus sustaining like a squat or like you know very of a squat, like three quarters of the squat half of the squat, three quarters of the squat happens is quite like what I'm imagining you're sustaining a posture that's similar to that while going down the mountain. And is there a difference between that versus spinning your legs?

Adam 20:13

No, there's no difference. The difference is that you find are very specific adaptations for each movement. You know, again, endurance is not just about strength. Endurance is not just about having our energy systems support our basic energy systems, that's part of it, right, definitely getting stronger, pushing our energy systems. Now having better ability to metabolize fats, having better abilities to have your hemoglobin let go of oxygen easier. These are all things that adapt to high intensity exercise, to help with endurance. But that's not the only things that need to adapt, you also have to practice that actual activity. So building endurance, we have to be careful, really comes from motor skill development also, and no exercise program is ever going to be able to make up for that, you have to do that also. So if you want to build endurance for biking, there are many things you have to do, you have to do high intensity interval training, to push those energy systems that develop those extra energy systems. diet might have to do with it sleep might have to do with it timing, the way you train, how often you ride the bike, and then skill development, are you are you riding the bike properly, learning how to become a more efficient bike rider, all these things play into overall endurance. So to say that strength training and strength training alone is going to help endurance is ignoring all these other factors. And you can't ignore those factors. But again, I think skiing downhill skiing is more of an anaerobic kind of high intensity experience versus the other things you're talking about bike riding,

Mike 21:46

is it closer to like strength training than it is?

Adam 21:49

Yeah

Mike 21:49

to riding a bike.

Adam 21:49

downhill skiing is closer to high intensity exercise than biking, or even tennis. I mean, you're like skiing here you're doing, you're doing 100 squats in a row when you're skiing. You know, you're not doing when you're biking. If you're not, if you're doing steady state cardio or steady, say biking, you're not pushing your energy systems like that. So you're not going to hear though, but I bet you if somebody took up criterion bike riding where you're sprinting around a track really hard, and there's no breaks, I bet they would say the strength training has helped them for that I bet you hear similar response? Because that's more similar to high intensity pushing. So you know, to the max.

Mike 22:25

All right, well, on top of all that, Adam, what about altitude? We you mentioned altitude a little bit earlier? Does strength training prepare us for altitude?

Adam 22:34

Well, that's this is really interesting. And I don't want to get too much in the weeds and biochemistry. When you do high intensity training, your body has to adapt to the extreme amount of lactic acid or, or acid that actually gets created and your body has to deal with that. If your body doesn't deal with that acid, it becomes a very dangerous situation. So what happens is, amazingly the body Alright,

Mike 22:59

you're talking about co2. When you say acid,

Adam 23:02

yes. Hydrogen ions that come from the metabolism of energy. Yes, exactly. Alright, so co2 is an acid, it's actually specifically called the Lewis acid if you want to get really technical, alright, so yes, co2 is acts as that's expelled out, right. So this, so high co2, chronic high co2 as a result of high intense exercise

Mike 23:22

muscles working

Adam 23:23

right? Alright, what happens is your body starts creating the molecules that will bind with your red blood cells. Now your red blood cells carry oxygen around right now, red blood cells have a very high affinity for oxygen. And when you're at high altitude, where oxygen is very low, your body creates this molecule that binds with hemoglobin. So it makes it easier for the hemoglobin to let go of the oxygen. Alright, so when you go up to high altitude, and people feel really weird when they first get up there, because their body didn't create this this molecule yet. So it's high altitude, low amount of oxygen, in other words, much less oxygen up there than there is at sea level. So your hemoglobin is not letting go of the oxygen fast enough, because there's hardly any oxygen up there. So what your body does is create this molecule, it takes time again, body just doesn't have it there. It's not using on a regular basis, so it has to create it. That's why it takes a couple of days to adjust, because your body has to create this molecule. Alright, so the body takes time to create this molecule. Once that molecule is created, and that molecule binds with the hemoglobin. Now your hemoglobin is letting go of oxygen easier to the tissues that need it and you don't feel weird anymore. Alright, so your oxygen delivery is improved as a result of your body reacting to high altitude. Now when you do high intensity exercise, you're creating the same problem. You're creating an oxygen debt. And when you're working on a regular basis, high intensity exercise even though you're at sea level, your body is creating that molecule also. So our clients when they do high intensity exercise, this molecule is actually there when they go to high altitude skiing. They don't have to adjust because it's already there from their high intensity training.

Mike 25:02

I think this actually answers or gets closer to answering the question that I had before. You know

Adam 25:08

why? Well, again, in part,

Mike 25:10

because all about endurance is about, usually about oxygen transfer, oxygen uptake, and your ability to do it efficiently.

Adam 25:17

Yes, and I say,in part, because not only are you improving energy systems, right, and you're improving your ability to metabolize fats for fuel and taking, taking some of the load off of the Krebs cycle and glycolysis, you have the cori cycle, which takes that load off, and you have this, what I'm talking about this molecule being created that it's called the Bohr effect, if you want to, if you want to be specific, it's

Mike 25:41

B O HR

Adam 25:42

b o h r or the Bohr effect. And this is what happens. All right, when, again, the bohr effects show is that when you have high co2, you know, what happens is your body will produce this molecule that will bind with hemoglobin to make it easier to transport oxygen to the tissues. And that's another tool that the body uses to improve endurance. Yes, but it's not just that it's all those things combined high intensity exercise affects all these things, plus more, you know, your ability to use utilize glucose, and all kinds of things change when you're when you subject yourself periodically, but consistently, to high intensity exercise. And so you have your ability to metabolize, metabolize fats better when you go to high altitude skiing, you have the ability to release oxygen to the cells better because of a high intensity training. And he's all different things that are occurring at the same time.

Mike 26:33

So So basically, I think we'll wrap it up after this. But the last thing, I think it's what we're answering the questions about strength training, and we know that high intensity training really helps all these things for skiing, and for a lot of other sports as well your legs are stronger. That's the other thing, the obvious one, but honestly, like I you know, I think we'd be remiss without just mentioning, also, why is the power of 10 Take it to the next level, because there are tons of other high intensity exercise modalities out there. But I think one of the things is you don't want to be injured when you're getting when you're going out there. And this is the high intensity exercise, which really, I think considers safety. Whereas

Adam 27:13

you just answered the question you asked me to hear that, that was that was my answer. I mean, why? Why is power 10 Why is our version of high intensity exercise which is basically lifting weights at a slower pace to prevent the forces that cause injury. We're avoiding the extreme ranges of motion. We're doing things according to muscle and joint function. We're modulating intensity with rest, we're doing all those things so you don't get injured. So you're not over trained. Or under trained. You're You're primed and you just really strong with and you're not your joints aren't compromised.

Tim Edwards 27:46

Thanks Adam and Mike strength and endurance both on and off the slopes for a mere 20 minutes of intense strength training a week. That's a small price to pay to lead the kind of active life you want to lead. We've been telling you about it for 44 episodes here on the inform fitness podcast. For those of you who reside near Manhattan, Port Washington, Denville. Burbank, Boulder, Leesburg and Reston. We have good news for you. At the time of this recording, which is in February of 2018. There's a free session waiting for you at informfitness.com Just click the try us free button right there on the homepage. Fill out the form, pick your location, and enjoy a slow motion high intensity full body workout in just 20 minutes for free. I promise you'll feel the difference after one workout. The Workout is intense, but it's sustainable for those of us with busy schedules, which just about covers all of us, doesn't it? But most importantly, it's effective. I know this because I've been enjoying this workout for almost two years now. If you don't live near inform fitness, you can pick up Adams book power of 10. The once a week slow motion fitness revolution is just one click away and available at Amazon. For less than 15 bucks. Adam explains everything in this easy to read book and exercises that you can do in your own home. We'll have a link to Adam's book in the show notes. Okay, we've said many times during the podcast that you can't out exercise a bad diet. You may be building washboard abs but you probably won't be able to see them underneath that layer of you know what. So next week, Mike and Adam reveals some very small nutritional changes that you can make that will yield some really great results quickly that support the building of muscle and burning the fat that covers the muscle up. So make sure you're with us next week here on the inform fitness podcast for Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting Network.

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Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers discuss how developing an extreme attitude toward a reasonable plan is a formula for success in diet and exercise.

To find an Inform Fitness location nearest you visit www.InformFitness.com.
To purchase Adam Zickerman’s book, Power of 10: The Once-a-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution click this link to visit Amazon: http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

38 Extreme Attitude + Reasonable Plan = Success Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

extreme, people, eating, adam, diet, results, ketogenic diet, week, keto, discipline, cravings, podcast, vegetarian diet, oftentimes, life, oils, fitness, day, lose, dinner

SPEAKERS

Tim Edwards, Mike, Adam

Adam 00:06

You know, some people think just following a diet to the to the letter of the law is extreme. But that to me that's not extreme. That's extreme discipline. Yeah, but it's not it's not irrational extreme working out so you drop every single day of the week. Those are two different types of extremes, in my opinion. And I think there's a way that we should differentiate those types of extremes because sticking to a very healthy diet, which I can which I laid out before, a lot of people think is extreme.

Tim Edwards 00:40

Inform nation welcome in to the inform fitness podcast with New York Times bestselling author, Adam Zickerman. In just a moment, Adam will be joined by Mike Rogers from the New York City inform fitness location, Sheila Melody from the Toluca Lake Los Angeles location is still out, but we'll be back with us again next week. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting network and a client of inform fitness. Now, last week Adam, Mike and I discussed the potential dangers of not closely modulating high intensity exercise programs, such as those found at CrossFit, excessive spin classes or marathon training. Well, today we'll be discussing the merits of developing an extreme attitude about a reasonable plan, especially when it comes to your diet, which is what pillar number two is of this high intensity strength training protocol found in Adams book, power of 10, the once a week slow motion fitness revolution. And if you're a subscriber or a regular listener of the podcast, you already know that earlier this year, Adam adopted a ketogenic diet. Now, some would say that that would be an extreme dietary plan, or is it? Adam will update us on his progress and the results of going keto plus a lot more. So without further ado, here's Adam,

Adam 01:54

you know, one thing about extremes reminds me of some advertisements I see in the airports, it's the same picture side by side, let's say it's an antique piece of furniture. And one person might look at that as garbage, you know, and somebody else might look at it as art, you know, something like that. There's an analogy here, because we think of what we do as an extreme extreme minimalism. You can look at this, as you know, we're trying to do as little exercise as possible as you need. And some people think that's extreme. Some people look at the level of going to muscle failure as an extreme. Some people think eliminating carbohydrates or refined carbohydrates from your diet is extremely not having any sugar and doing something like a ketogenic diet. They see that as extreme. On the other hand, the same person that does a ketogenic diet might think that the gross amount of carbohydrates that somebody is eating is extreme. And from a biological standpoint, you know, there's an argument to be made that, you know, keto is not extreme at all. I mean, a ketogenic diet was absolutely normal, you know, so because that's my perception. My perception is modern diet is extreme. Again, how do you define a ketogenic diet? Well, you have to be in ketosis, you got to be basically using ketones as fuel and fafi fuel. So in other words, the metabolic pathway exists and people are on it healthily for a long time. So it can't be that extreme. First of all, secondly, you know, what I do in a ketogenic diet if I if I, if I didn't call it a ketogenic diet, and I didn't mention that you happen to be in ketosis. And if I said to somebody, this is what I normally eat. And I say, for breakfast, I have a couple of eggs. Right and, and some water and some greens. And then for for lunch, I have a salad with nuts and vegetables, and I put olive oil on it. Alright, and I put, you know, maybe a couple ounces of chicken, or cheese. And then for dinner, I have a whole plate of Brussels sprouts, and a six ounce piece of salmon. Now, somebody say that's extreme if I eat like that, for three months straight. I'd be on a ketogenic diet. And I've ate those same meals every single day or meals just like that. In macronutrient macronutrient makeup, nobody would call that extreme. It sounds like a vegetarian diet with some, some lean meats, little little portion, lean meats on the side, right? No one's gonna say that's extreme diet, if they hear it that way. But if I say that, Oh, by the way, by eating that way, and not having any bread or rice or any of those other things, then all of a sudden it becomes an extreme diet, but that's what I did for 90 days ate like that, you know? Yes. The amount of butter and amount of oils I put on my salads were high, but they're all the healthy oils right? You know, with some controversy, you know, the avocado oils, the olive oils, coconut oil. I know that's kind of controversial, but it's not it's not to me, it's not extreme to me,

Mike 04:59

people, people have expectations based on their experience and they were they, their early judgments come in. And oftentimes when they take the time to actually listen to what Adam just said, like, oh, like if they actually they didn't hear the word ketogenic and heard. Oh, wow, that sounds actually that's just relatively sustainable. It is very sustainable.

Adam 05:20

And I mean, somebody said to me, you know, that's a good experiment. A lot of people ask me, What do you eat right and expect me to kind of sum it up in the in the name like a noun like, right, yeah, it's a Keto or the Paleo diet,

Mike 05:31

or if you described a scenario describing it. Oh, you're doing the Palio? Yeah.

Adam 05:36

That's a good experiment. What I'm going to do instead is I'm going to say what, what instead of saying, what do I call it, I don't know what I call, but this is what I eat. Let me tell you what I eat. You tell me what it is.

Tim Edwards 05:44

And no one will look at you crooked that way. That's right.

Adam 05:46

So it sounds like a very well balanced diet, right? Like, you know, that's hard for people to do. In our day and age, it is very hard for somebody to eat like that, because of all the choices and the options, because we do have pizza and cereal and cookies,

Mike 05:59

but also their experience, for example, like the idea of what your breakfast can be, you know, like, we've grown up and we thought, okay, it's eggs and bacon, or cereal, or a bagel and cream cheese, or pancakes or french toast. And if you're going really healthy, it's yogurt or oatmeal, okay, or something like that, you know, like, that's what we've that's what how we grew up. But the thing is, and people ask me what I have for breakfast, which is oftentimes I actually half the week, I skip it, because I have no problem doing that. And I actually like to like to do that. Is that part of a intermittent fast? Or is that just because you're busy. intermittent fast, and oftentimes, it's because I'm just busy, but honestly I'm used to it, I don't mind it. And I it has actually worked for me, and and my body and my results. But what I was going to say before was the idea when I do have breakfast, oftentimes, it's leftover dinner, which could be just like a little bit of a veal chop, and some salad from the night before. Everyone, you're going to eat that for breakfast. Like that's like the craziest thing I've ever heard in their life. And the thing is, you know, the, it's just vegetables and meat, you know, and it's it's not that big of a deal. But it's amazing how people wince and are like they're completely tilt their heads, and they're completely like that. That is unbelievable.

Tim Edwards 07:20

Well, they're conditioned to breakfast foods is just for breakfast, and how can you even have that for lunch? Or have a lunch for dinner or whatever? You're just fueling your body?

Mike 07:28

Right, exactly. It's it's it is relatively but I think it's it's better to talk about, you know, when we're when we are talking to people who have certain expectations and make judgments based on those expectations. It's better to sort of, I think two and it takes a little bit extra time. But to actually spell it out the way Adam did before because it really actually makes relatively common sense to almost anybody regardless of what your dietary beliefs are

Adam 07:53

well also the vegetarian diet. Yeah. And the difference is that I, I used the vegetables that I eat as as fat vehicles, if you will, that's how I get my fat intake. So So you know, the trick is eating vegetables with all the really good oils, and then you have a little bit of the salmon that brings with it some of its healthy fats, as well as either well raised chicken and well raised meats, cooked properly, you know, and that's it. I mean, like, alright, if you're a vegetarian, that doesn't sound right, you know, but that's not because but overall, no one's gonna argue eating small mounds of animal protein with a mostly vegetarian diet with with healthy oils that is basically a ketogenic diet. And everyone imagines when you hear a ketogenic or Atkins style diet, or paleo, they're all walking around with big old turkey legs in our hand knowing it, you know, animal products, and, you know, the side of bacon. You know, it's it's, people do that. And it's usually too much protein.

Tim Edwards 08:57

Well, in this case, extremes there is really matter of perception, right? i It's, it's how they're perceiving a diet. For instance, when you started your ketogenic diet, right around the top of the year, right. You went in specifically, to go keto, you didn't become keto, as by just changing your diet. So therefore, the perception was, oh, you're doing something extreme. But really, when you pull back and look at it, you're just eating healthy.

Adam 09:20

I'm eating the way I think, I mean, there's no debate and we can bring on some guests that might disagree with me.

Tim Edwards 09:27

And also, your your blood tests would really be great to share with our audience as well, too.

Adam 09:31

Yes. I think, from my perspective, or from the research, I've done that being in a state of ketosis for most time eating the way I described, I gave you a sample meal, for example, which is for a guy at my weight and height, you know, is a couple 1000 calories a day. I do it in a way that you know, a couple times a week, I'm intermittent fasting, but that's basically how I'm eating. And that is generally being in a state of ketosis for most of the time and I think for me, is the healthiest way to eat. Now, I understand that it's a very hard thing to maintain for a lot of people. And I think compliance for that is tough because you have all the temptations and people love a lot of the other foods out there that they would essentially have to give up. And some people don't want to live like that.

Tim Edwards 10:20

You know,

Mike 10:20

we represent like little choices you have to make in your life and about how you want to live. Remember, Tim, you, you were in New York last week, and we had, we went over to PJ Clarke's and had a really nice lunch and I told Tim, You got to try the burger here. It's awesome. He's like, Well, you're not having it. I was like, No, I've had it before, but I'm gonna have the swordfish, and the zucchini linguine. You know, I have a glass of water and everything it is, it was a very, very, super healthy lunch. I mean, he had a great burger, which if I hadn't had it before, I would have also had it and frankly, you know, I know, I told you to do something all week. And for the last, you know, for the most part, that's generally how I'm eating most of the time. But I for what works with Mike Rogers is, I feel my brain needs to take a little time off. And I was at the Dodgers Mets game on Saturday. And I ate perfectly all week. And then I was at the Dodgers game, and I had I'm not kidding, to Shaq burgers, a hot dog, a chocolate shake two beers. And so my son's Cracker Jacks. Okay. So I had, I don't even think I had the salad that was in the shack burger. But yeah, but you know, something, I did it, I whatever. I had a great time at the ballgame. And son, you know, Sunday morning, I woke up and I had, I was back on track again, the way I run my life. And it's good for me. Well, it works for you. I met you for the first time last week face to face after doing the podcast for about a year and a half now. And, and you obviously you look trim and fit. So whatever you're doing is certainly working for you. And frankly, it was a process and it takes time, I actually think that there is a fat guy inside of me that really wants to come out and the thing is, it takes. This is what I'm trying to say that we're not alone here. No one's alone here. It's mostly hard work for almost everybody to create a certain level of discipline that makes them closer to their goals. And you know, the ketogenic diet and intermittent fasting has found a home with Adam now and that may not last forever, but for now it makes complete sense to him. And most of my nutrition is close to that as well. But it's not it's a little bit different.

Adam 12:30

I was just on a cruise to Alaska, just got back from Alaska cruise. And you know, the food is 24/7 there and, you know, 80% of the time I was just eating whatever the hell I wanted, which quite honestly was not according to the ketogenic plan. I had shitty home fries, you know, and stuff that I've been not having for a long time. And I'm like, alright, well, I'm on a cruise. And but you know what? I don't know. I don't feel that good. Now,

Tim Edwards 12:55

we'll see. And that's the thing I was gonna ask you. So you've been relatively disciplined for now going on? What like eight months or so? And, and so you go and indulge, mentally indulge, and you don't feel that good right now as a result of it. So my question was, have you how disciplined Have you been over the last eight months? Cuz you said in the last couple of episodes where we talked about this is, you know, when you go keto, you know, people that have been compliant for a large amount of time they they lose the craving, and you said, no way you still crave those. Those crappy steak fries, or

Adam 13:32

I know for me, I haven't, I haven't. It's it's,

Tim Edwards 13:36

you haven't lost the craving?

Adam 13:37

for me. For me as an addict thing. It really is. And I think for most people it is I mean

Mike 13:42

it is for me

Adam 13:43

you have to you have to AA it.

Tim Edwards 13:46

Yeah, yes

Adam 13:47

I like to say, you can't have one drink, right? If you really want to stay and I'm, I'm contemplating it, I'm contemplating rarely going off the way I've been kind of you know, since since my experiment, I've, I've been maybe 70% Eating on track and then 30% off. So I haven't been all that great. And I've gained some of the weight back and you know, I my digestion, My digestive system is not as good as it was again,

Tim Edwards 14:16

so by not being 100% compliant, you're noticing

Adam 14:21

I'm already noticing knows it. And um, yeah

Mike 14:24

Tim, honestly, like my whole thing, when I usually I simplify things. In my own mind. This doesn't work for everybody. But like, if there's 21 meals in a week, my rule is kind of like 19 make them perfect, and to kind of let them be as objectionable as you want. And the truth is, you know what, that gets me about 95% of the results that I want, not 100

Tim Edwards 14:45

That's a good trade though.

Mike 14:46

not 100 I think I have to work harder, frankly. But I've decided that at the at the moment, I'm happy with 95% of what of what I really want for myself, you know, obviously this is it's complicated. You have your work life, your family life, vacations. This is not easy stuff. But generally, when you're

Adam 15:04

some people can do that I think some people can say, out of the 21 meals, you know, I'm going to be good 18 of them, and that's it. But the problem is, you start a plan like that, I mean, I talked about in my book a free day, you know, you know, eat well, for six days, you know, one free day and little short sighted, or at least I should have brought this up at the time, and I'm bringing it up now is that for some people that have the discipline to to be good at 18 and not, and not have the other meals kind of throw you off. That's what ends up happening. You start that thing, and then you say, okay, you know, you work up to your free meal, or you're free, you know, out of the 21 years, your day, I'm gonna take my I'm gonna take my 19th meal right now. And, but that 19th meal leads to never getting back on track. A lot of people can for a lot of people. So like, that's almost like, again, that's what I mean, when I AA it means for some people, you're better off just not doing that

Tim Edwards 15:58

I agree

Adam 15:58

and staying draconian. And a lot of people are not willing to be draconian. You know, I asked people when weight loss is a goal. Is it a how, how important is it because, as we talked about on The Secret Life of fat episode, and how hard it is to lose body fat, and what it entails, how badly do you really want it. And bringing it back to extremes, a lot of people have still have this notion that the more exercise they do, they can compensate for getting off track on their eating, and it never works. In 20 years, by the way, I've seen plenty of people lose lots of weight, by watching what they eat. And just doing a small amount of exercise, whereas I've never seen anybody and I can probably say never just exercise and add a lot of exercise without changing their eating lose a lot of weight. I've never seen it. No, I've never seen that. So you know, diet is everything. And then you have to say how important once they get to that realization, and they stop with this, I gotta keep exercising mentality. Once they realize that, and they say, Well, how important is it to really lose those 15 20 30 pounds? Because if it is really important to you, this is what you're gonna have to do.

Tim Edwards 17:13

It's all or nothing.

Mike 17:14

Yeah, it's it's literally it's having an extreme attitude towards sticking to a reasonable plan.

Adam 17:21

some people think that's not the extreme we're talking about, which is exactly was a great point, Mike. I mean, that's what Mike and I were talking about yesterday, privately. I mean, you know, some people think just following a diet to the to the letter of the law is extreme. But that, to me, that's not extreme. That's extreme discipline. Yeah. But it's not it's not irrational extreme working out till you drop every single day of the week. Those are two different types of extremes, in my opinion. And I think there's a way that we should differentiate those types of extremes. Because sticking to a very healthy diet, which I can, which I laid out before, a lot of people think is extreme.

Mike 17:56

abstinence is extreme

Adam 17:57

But if you want to call it extreme, maybe call extreme discipline, yeah. All right. But but but it's not extreme. Like going to CrossFit every single day kind of extreme, expecting certain types of results, or extreme types of stretching, thinking you want to increase your flexibility and become less injury prone, you know, and doing those types of extremes. That's a different type of extreme in my opinion, but maybe they're not. So I like to hear people's opinions about you know, this because, to me, those are two different types of extremes, but maybe other people see is same exact thing.

Mike 18:29

You know, like, we I know, I've said this before on the podcast, and I discuss it with the clients all the time, but like, when someone wants a result in any aspect of their life, it usually requires planning and focus and accountability and discipline. And that's just what it is. And that's with anything, you have a deliverable for your boss or a client, you know, you can't just wing it, it really requires a lot of focus, dedication, and people who, who take those steps usually succeed at those types of things. And this is this is coupled with, like your your health goals, oftentimes are not necessarily coupled with but are adulterated with oftentimes addiction, you know, and when, especially when the nutrition comes in, and our habits, the routines that we already said said that are settled in our cravings for very certain foods at certain times a day and stuff like that. And this is a very hard fought battle for every one of us and even Adam who's got an incredible level of discipline and myself compared to most people who I deal with, have I have a lot of discipline but you know, I still felt I wanted to have those Shaq burgers, you know, and that was what was fun to me at the baseball game. Right? You know, I guess I didn't really need to, but frankly, I wanted to but that what I want, this is a

Tim Edwards 19:47

this is an enhancing experience too right? and then you have these various experiences in life that you and maybe food is just a part of that enhancement. And so how sustainable is it to stay extreme with air quotes? All right. You know, Adam, you mentioned you've been extremely disciplined for the majority of this year.

Mike 20:05

it goes into what Adam said, as far as how bad you want your goals

Adam 20:08

this is an interesting point. Actually, it made me think of something, you know, like, what Mike just said? I mean, first of all, question number one question is, how important is it to to have a certain level of, you know, fit health, right, so and, and how important is to do for these markers to improve whether it be low body fat, and six pack abs, and therefore really good digestion, and in my case, no more back pain and less inflammation, and higher, higher chance of not getting cancer as a result of not flooding my system with sugar all the time. And, I mean, how important is all that and for the sacrifice of not having a lot of foods that I want, and like you were just talking about not having a lot of experiences, because food is surrounded by experiences associated with experiences a hotdog at a baseball game, things like that. So this is, this is interesting. I had to make a paradigm in those 90 days. there was a permanent change that occurred with me, and that is this. That we or I put a lot more emphasis on the food experience and I needed to. In other words, for example, I would say to myself, are you kidding me? Adam, you can enjoy a good baseball game without shoving your face with hotdogs and Applejack. I mean, if it wasn't for the Apple, what? It wasn't for the crack Applejack cereal? Yeah, I like that, too. Actually, I used to love cracker or apple jacks. Anyway. So you're telling me, Adam, that you don't have the Cracker Jacks and the hotdog and the beer that you can enjoy yourself at this at this game? I mean, you're telling me that you if you don't drop acid at a Grateful Dead concert, you're not gonna have a good time. Come on. I mean, seriously, can't you love the music for the music? You love the game for the game?

Tim Edwards 21:55

Or like going out to dinner

Mike 21:56

to the deadheads Yeah.

Tim Edwards 22:00

It goes to what you know, or going to a restaurant, for instance, like my wife and I want to go out to dinner and I'm on this. Whatever diet I'm on at that time. And and focusing more on the company at the restaurant than the food.

Adam 22:13

What happened with me, that's what happened to me. It was 90 days I had I forced myself at the beginning was contrived. I was like, listen, Adam, you're not going to eat it, because you're on this 90 Day commitment. And all these listeners to the podcast are actually counting on you to report. So I had a lot of responsibility, a lot of motivation to stick to it. Right. And so I wasn't going to switch. I wasn't going to cheat. And therefore, I had to think I had to distract myself. I had to all of a sudden pay more attention to my wife during dinner than then shoving my face with french fries and bread and wine. And alcohol.

Mike 22:49

I can only imagine the hell that that was.

Adam 22:51

No but it enhances things got. You know, it's like when you're blind, your sense of touch gets better. Yeah, right. And your other senses improve. And that's what happened. My other senses in a way improved that result to me not reaching for the food to fill a void.

Mike 23:06

You are so much hotter now that you just said that.

Adam 23:09

Yeah. And it was exciting. It was exciting not to say that I haven't slipped since then, you know, not to say that haven't slipped since then. But But I missed that I missed out that that those 90 days for that because I was more productive. It helped me focus on my relationships, my guitar playing I mean, when I can't grab that bag of chips or chocolate. And then I see my acoustic guitar over there. I'm like, Okay, let me just grab that and get myself into a song. I forget all about it. And when the cravings came, instead of grabbing the bag, I said, Okay, I thought of a rational solution. I said, if I just have a piece of apple and almond butter, then I'll move on and get rid of those hunger pains. And it was very strategic. And again, it was very enlightening for me. I mean, it really became acutely aware of the rest of my life, you know, and all the things in it. You know, I decided to run upstairs and start hanging out with my kids who are on their computer, right? So instead of just sitting in front of the couch, you know resorting to some snack, huh? Watching TV mindlessly, I said, I just ran upstairs. Hey, Clay, what are you doing? The next thing you know, I'm doing something with him.

Mike 24:24

Wow, there's a correlation between not eating junk food and caring about your family

Tim Edwards 24:29

chips or my kids, which do I choose?

Adam 24:32

So I know this sounds really, I don't know, totally philosophical, and maybe a little corny. But it was real. It was real. And that even though I fell off that a little bit, I have changed as a result of that because now even when I am not being where I want to be, I understand what I'm doing.

Tim Edwards 24:52

Well, like I said too Adam, you know, as they say, backsliding in your diet, and you're not feeling so well. Now, it's also a great reminder it looks like in this season of your life to go. The other way was much better than what's happening right now.

Adam 25:11

Yeah, well today is Tuesday, my cruise I got back on on Sunday and yesterday I was good today I am fine. And I think I am back on track. And just having this conversation I'm telling it's like therapy, it is, you know, just having a conversation is a reason why you're supposed to go to those meetings AA meetings, right all the time is talking about being around other people that are experiencing it too. It just, it's day by day, it's a day by day thing, and you can't beat yourself up, if you slip up, I haven't beaten myself up over this. I just know what I am just I know what it takes to go back to that. And I just have to remind myself how all these other good things, I still have those cravings, I still have to distract myself. But in attempt to distract myself, I'm making myself better and more productive, and I am ultimately happier, I was ultimately happier and more fulfilled. And now I'm 80% that way instead of 100% that way, but it's amazing that the the ramification like a domino effect that it has just by severing your relationship that way with food.

Mike 26:13

Once you get in the groove, and all of our clients who've been in the groove where they're they're, they're compliant to their plan, a very solid nutrition plan and in their workouts, and they're walking frequently or so on. And the everybody reports that they always feel better at that time, even if they look forward to seeing their friends. And they know that drinks are going to be you know, they're going to be having drinks when they go out for a happy hour or something like that. You know, they reflect on those times, maybe they they'll have only one or something like that, or maybe they won't at all. But I think the point is, I think the mindfulness that Adam was talking about that's like, even when you know you're doing it wrong, or backsliding, you're aware of, of that feeling and what you're missing, and it does make you better and you and you're blessed, you're less likely or rather, you're more likely to do what you know you really are setting out to do which gets you closer to how your your body feels, and looks and all those kinds of things

Adam 27:11

to wrap up reminds me of conversations I have all the time with people during the first time they meet with me for a consultation to work out. I'm very often asked during that consultation, When will I see results and very often I answer that question with another question, which is what do you mean by results? then the discussion continues about results and what they consider results and what I consider results. And then we find that place where we both agree on that we're going to go to and we we help define results. And we have a meeting of the minds on that. Well, same thing with extremes and the word extreme and the definition of extreme. So if I was to kind of sum up the moral of the story here, and what we've been discussing, is that we should be extreme about being disciplined, not extreme for extreme sake. So why don't we end with this this challenge, if you will, pick something for 90 days that you cannot veer from, whether it be practicing your guitar every day for 90 days and seeing where you end up. And what comes from that. Whether it be losing a certain amount of weight and sticking to a nutrition plan. Whether it be I don't know, quality time with your family but pick it and don't veer for 90 days and see what happens. And then see if you have the same experience I had. All right. Good luck, and we'll talk to you next week.

Tim Edwards 28:31

Okay, so you've been challenged. Give yourself 90 days to make a change whatever it might be. Now, if you accept this challenge, we would love to hear from you. You can email us or better yet, record a voice memo on your phone and send it to podcast at informfitness.com. And with your permission, we can mention you in an upcoming episode. Perhaps you need some additional inspiration to kick off Adams challenge. If so, might I recommend Adam's book power of 10 the once a week slow motion fitness revolution, check out the show notes for a link that will take you right to it in Amazon. And while you're bouncing around the internet. Don't forget to jump on over to informfitness.com for all of their seven locations across the US. You'll also find all of our podcast episodes and there are a ton of videos including a bunch that my company inbound films produced for the Toluca Lake location and speaking of Toluca Lake, looking forward to having Sheila Melody back with us again next week. So until then, for Adam Mike and Sheila of inform fitness. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting Network.

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Adam Zickerman and Mike Rogers of Inform Fitness are joined by Luke Carlson of Discover Strength to discuss a book authored by Greg Mckeown titled Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less. The principles described in this book directly apply to the slow motion. The principles described in this book directly apply to the slow motion, high-intensity, strength training protocol practiced at all 7 InForm Fitness locations across the country and the 3 Discover Strength location in and near Minneapolis, Minnesota of which Luke is the founder and CEO.

Adam Zickerman - Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen
Greg McKeown - Essentialism -The Disciplined Pursuit of Less
http://bit.ly/Essentialism_Amazon
http://bit.ly/Essentialism_Audible

For a FREE 20-Minute strength training full-body workout and to find an Inform Fitness location nearest you, please visit http://bit.ly/Podcast_FreeWorkout
If you'd like to ask Adam, Mike or Sheila a question or have a comment regarding the Power of 10. Send us an email or record a voice memo on your phone and send it to podcast@informfitness.com.

43 Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

exercise, fitness, essentialist, essentialism, people, book, workout, luke, thinking, essential, crossfit, inform, client, stimulus, barbara walters, adam, high intensity, location, paying, lose

SPEAKERS

Tim Edwards, Mike, Luke Carlson, Adam

Luke Carlson 00:06

We are in an exercise and fitness climate, where 98% of what people are doing is not essential. Before you could even contemplate anything fitness related. You have to have that filter going into it less, but better. How can I focus on what's truly essential, and then eliminate everything else so that I can pour myself in to what's actually essential?

Tim Edwards 00:37

Inform nation thanks for being with us for episode 43 of the inform fitness podcast, with New York Times bestselling author, Adam Zickerman and friends. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting network and a client of inform fitness in Toluca Lake here in Southern California. Today's guest on the podcast is Luke Carlson. Luke is an American College of Sports Medicine certified exercise physiologist, a cancer exercise specialist, and has a BS and MS in kinesiology from the University of Minnesota. And the reason Luke will be with us in this episode is to discuss a book authored by Greg McEwen titled essentialism, the disciplined pursuit of less, and how the principles in the book directly apply to the slow motion, high intensity strength training protocol, practiced at all seven inform fitness locations across the country. And the three Discover Strength locations in and near Minneapolis, Minnesota, of which Luke is the founder and CEO.

Adam 01:36

So Luke, welcome to the program. Thank you for coming in.

Luke Carlson 01:39

Hey, it's my pleasure. It's an honor to be here. Thanks for having me.

Adam 01:41

Yeah, so Luke is actually in our office. He's not calling remotely from his home base in Minnesota. He's actually here visiting New York who's actually some clients in the New York City Marathon. And here is rooting him on and he's still lingering in New York for a little while. And

Luke Carlson 01:57

we had to make the visit to inform fitness. It's always a top of my New York list. Everybody else wants to see that. The Empire State Building and I want to see inform fitness in New York.

Tim Edwards 02:10

that tour bus comes right by your facility there right, Adam?

Adam 02:14

Oh, when a tour bus Yeah, the double decker tour. They always point out there's Inform Fitness over there.

Tim Edwards 02:19

Adam waves out the window outside.

Adam 02:22

Everyone wants to know what that line is outside. So So So Luke, Luke is multi talented, not only does he run high intensity fitness facilities, but he's a motivator, corporate motivator, and a incredible entrepreneur. And I heard him giving a talk on a book written by Greg McKeon called essentialism. It's a New York Times bestseller. I read it this weekend, after hearing Luke talk about it. And it's a great book on on basically paring down what's important in your life and learning to say, No, it's a big skill. Easier said than done. As it turns out, and we all want to be everything to everybody, whether we're running a business, we don't want to ever turn a customer down. Even though that customer might not be for us. We never want to say no to our kids, our employees, our friends, and we end up overextending ourselves. And we basically lose sight of what's important to ourselves, our own individual wants and goals. And, of course, part of that process, and why it's relevant to high intensity exercises. People tend to feel the need to exercise a lot. And more is better. And this book is really the opposite of that it's do, what's the expression,

Luke Carlson 03:49

the mantra over and over throughout the book is less, but better

Adam 03:53

exactly

Luke Carlson 03:53

in every area of your lives. And think about that, my goodness, that applies to how we work, all of our family interactions. But then you think about workouts, it's before you could even contemplate anything fitness related. You have to have that filter going into it less but better. How can I focus on what's truly essential, and then eliminate everything else so that I can pour myself in to what's actually essential. And Adam, I know you live this every day, you guys live this every day, but we are in an exercise and fitness climate, where 98% of what people are doing is not essential. People don't have a clue. And they haven't asked what is essential.

Adam 04:32

And that's the that's what this whole podcast is kind of about really kind of bringing it down to what do we truly need for exercise and why don't we what's the what's the least amount we can do to get the most out of our exercise program? Right?

Luke Carlson 04:47

It's it's unbelievable when I when I read the book, and I read it about a year ago a little over a year ago and I actually heard the author speak and I thought I need to read this book. And I thought son of a gun I've been practicing this type of exercise for For the better part of 17-18 years, and now he writes this book, and he really provides the perfect framework or filter from which to look at exercise. So he is really saying without talking about exercise, he's really saying all of the same things that we've been saying for so many years.

Adam 05:18

There's a quote in the book, or he's quoting Victor Hugo, actually in the book. And we all know and love Victor Hugo, the French dramatists. He says here, nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come. And Luke, just before we started recording, you said to me, when you read this book, Adam, weren't you relating everything to exercise? I was like, Yeah, and this quote, in particular, when I read that, I was like, hopefully this high intensity, less is more. Hopefully our time has come. I know. Dr. macguff talks about that, that you know, that the work we've been all doing the last 20 years. Finally, maybe our time has come? Do you kind of feel that?

Luke Carlson 06:05

Sure. Yet, I would say yes. But I also think that if we could somehow have every customer, every potential customer in our businesses, or in the fitness world, in general, man, if they read this book, right before they walked into our facilities, it would be like the primer, and every one of them would become a client. But I think we lose track of this essentialist approach. And I don't think the consumer has that lens when they're thinking about whatever those fitness decisions are going to be. And so I think it's, it's a book that on your fitness journey, it is the right place to start is to understand this essentialist approach, first and foremost.

Adam 06:47

So relate to the essentialist approach to to exercise and how we practice exercise. In other words, repeat a little bit of what I heard on your lecture.

Luke Carlson 06:56

Yeah, that so the first thing I would say is you have to understand what is your objective? So what is the desired outcome from working out? And here's the key question, in simplest terms, is your goal to hang out in a gym? Is your goal to hang out in a workout facility? Is your goal to stimulate improvements and changes to your physiology? And that is such a basic simple question. But as soon as you ask that question, or as you as you answer that question, you can start moving toward this essentialist approach. So I think our goal is really twofold. Our goal is number one to improve our health. So health is defined as the absence of chronic disease, or chronic disease risk factors. And I think broadly, the second goal is performance. So that might mean running a 5k Faster, hitting a golf ball further chasing our grandkids as we age, or what I like to talk about our performance in our work environments, if we are compensated, but based on our mental firepower, if we're what Peter Drucker would call a knowledge worker, then my goodness, how we exercise, how we exercise has a massive impact on how we perform in the workplace. So if we're trying to achieve goals that are, improve our health, and enhance performance, then we apply this filter of essentialism. And we start to realize pretty quickly, what do we not need to do anymore? What can we just cut? And then what do we double down on? What are we tripled down on? What's the type of exercise that's actually an effective stimulus to produce these desired outcomes? And then after that, it becomes pretty simple, becomes pretty simple to realize, what what do I need to eliminate? What can I avoid? Or what can I just do? Less of as a whole?

Adam 08:44

I know we're preaching to the choir a little bit here. But using essentialism, what does the essence of exercise come down to? I know, we talked, we've covered this a million times in other episodes, but let me hear from your mouth.

Luke Carlson 08:54

Well, I would say this, it comes down to working against meaningful resistance to the point of muscle failure, or muscle fatigue, covering all the major muscle structures. And I'm telling you 10 years ago, we thought that was important from a strength training or from a building strength or hypertrophy. So muscle size, and from a bone building standpoint. Now we know it is so much more robust than that. Whether it's cognitive function and prevention of mild cognitive impairment or moving in that direction, or cardiovascular fitness, we just have so much more evidence now to say that if you strength train and you strength train, right, all of those benefits are going to come from that strength training stimulus.

Adam 09:38

So keeping essentialism in mind, what doesn't it entail?

Luke Carlson 09:45

Well, another way to approach this another way to articulate essentialism is maybe thinking about how do we Pareto Principle our workouts, what's the 20% of what everyone's doing right now, that actually produces the 80% kind of the benefit. And if you look at that 20% It's the muscular tension. And it's the muscular tension at the point of failure or fatigue, and cut out everything else. So we would say cut out anything that's really low level of intensity, aerobic exercise, cut out anything that is unloading the musculature. You know, we found an interesting way that the way most people exercise right now, we found a way to engineer out the three, four or five most valuable components of really what exercise is, we've engineered out muscle tension, we've engineered out ecentric work, we've engineered out fiber recruitment. And all of those things are what exercise is exercise, by definition is not being in a health club, with sweat dripping off your nose, while you're wearing Lululemon, it is actually placing tension on muscle and getting to the point of fatigue. So it's a focus on that and less on some of the other things right now that we really should quantify as sport, if we're thinking about things that are, are really popular right now, some of the bootcamp formats and the classes that are so popular right now are competition based, rather than what I would call stimulus focused or stimulus based. So so there's a lot to cut out and a lot to cut out.

Mike 11:22

Yeah. Well, I think the problem, okay, it's not in what it's not in what you're saying. It's the problem in what people believe out there. I think what people's belief in what is essential, is a lot more than what we're talking about. And and there is still a lot of resistance in the medical community and in the fitness community. That and this is just one piece of the puzzle, just when you're just trying to intellectualize the science and trying to convey these, these simple things to them. People still have this belief about cardio and the AHA still has their literature, I know your prescriptions on exactly what we should be doing. And that's where we have a barrier, you know, and you know, it going back it's you think about who are the people that you really don't have to convince to come in here? Like how what percentage of your clients of your gyms are referrals, you know

Luke Carlson 12:16

yeah almost really everyone's a referral

Mike 12:18

almost everybody is because their friend, just like oh my god, you wouldn't believe I have this great workout. The results are showing above all by I was able to lose weight, they were actually able to do get all the results they're talking about in this time, but they usually don't do it until their friend does it. You know, and and, you know, when we were way back when we had some, like big media coverage, you know, because Barbara Walters said it, you know, and Lesley Stahl said it on TV. All of a sudden people are like, wow, there's probably something here you know,

Adam 12:46

yeah, see people people had a great desire to look like Barbara Walters. Yeah,

Mike 12:51

but she's an influencer. People love it people are influenced are your friends or someone who you may be looking up to you could look like her!

Adam 12:58

which reminds me of I was at a party and somebody said, Hey, this is Adam Zickerman, you know, his client is Barbara walters you should try this workout. And they were like, Oh, just what I want to look like Barbara freakin walters.

Tim Edwards 13:08

Look how old Barbara Walters isn't she's still functioning and still moving. It's not a matter of her looking like that. It's, it's how she's functioning and moving through life. So there's your test.

Adam 13:17

I'm sorry, Luke go ahead

Luke Carlson 13:19

two things, or just recent observation. So number one, the number one reason the number one barrier to why people don't do anything fitness related is time, they don't have the time. And what is so incredibly interesting and coincidental. And ironic is that the right prescription for them actually involves very, very little time. So we actually have the answer for the number one barrier as to why people don't engage in exercise. Now, the other thing that I lose touch with and I know you guys have to be in the same boat is I rarely go into health clubs. Well, I visited two different health clubs in New York City over the past two days, and I walk around a health club, and I am reminded about how much time and effort is wasted when someone visits a health club. I mean, I think what we do is the right thing, I think we provide good value to our customer. And I am only reminded of that when I walk into a health club, and I think Oh, my goodness, that person was here for an hour and 20 minutes, and they did nothing, or maybe five minutes of what they did was actually beneficial for them. And so I think it's worse, I think we are less essentialist in our approach to exercise than ever. If you look at the broad fitness consumer and the fitness business as a whole, we're moving away from essentialism in the independent

Adam 14:44

you know, just I was just thinking, you know, I was having this conversation with somebody about how I thought maybe the trend is finally changing where like as Victor Hugo said, Maybe this idea is time has come. You're saying the opposite. I just think even with even with the popularity of CrossFit which is a very high intense exercise I'm kind of thinking that maybe people are realizing that intensity is the key less is more, even though they're doing CrossFit, at least they're understanding intensity at this point. But I guess you're disagreeing with me.

Luke Carlson 15:11

Well, I agree with that, that observation, the best thing CrossFit has done is to tell the population that Hey, it's okay to work at a high level of intensity. So I think we've heard that message, I just think there's so much that support superflous in addition to it,

Mike 15:25

do they consider the the safety?

Luke Carlson 15:28

Oh, absolutely. You know, that's a totally different conversation. But if you look at okay, so I want to do some higher level of intensity, cardiovascular work, if someone wants to do that, and they really want to be smart about it, they can do it in a 15 to 18 minute workout. Absolutely. But we feel like if I'm going to go to the gym, for just 15 to 18 minutes, that can't be enough. So we find a way to include so many other facets that are just not evidence based. They're not essentialist in their approach. And I was just utterly shocked at being in a health club just yesterday, just looking around like wanting to call everyone in and huddle up around me and say you guys got to rethink this. You're paying the money. You bought the Lululemon, you're you're here, but you're stopping right at the point where all this becomes valuable.

Adam 16:14

Well, you know what the essentialist talks about this what you pay, you're paying for a membership, right? So you have to get your money's worth.

Luke Carlson 16:20

Yeah.

Adam 16:20

And you feel like a compelled to actually use it because you're paying for it. And that's, that's a non essentialist view. And the essential is trying to say that that's illogical thinking,

Luke Carlson 16:31

yeah

Adam 16:31

there was a there was a bias. They call it a certain type of bias. I can't remember off the top my head. But it's illogical, whatever the bias

Mike 16:39

right here, you're paying to have your time back. I mean, it's

Adam 16:43

people always say, Wow, that's a lot of money for half an hour workout, you know, and I was like, Listen, you know, don't you pay more for faster cars, faster computers, faster plans Express trains

Luke Carlson 16:52

I always say this, you know, when I talk about the the visit to the dentist, if the dentist could do everything in one half the time? Would I pay the same amount of money or more? And the answer is absolutely. Yes. Like, I'm not thinking, hey, let me sit here for another hour. Because I really

Adam 17:07

gimme a discount. Yeah, do that root canal slower and give me 20%? Off?

Mike 17:14

Yeah, I think I think the I'm trying to figure out the exercise, culture and barriers. I mean, with all the information we have now that is right there in front of us. Like, you know, there's and listening to the people who we have still have clients who they do this, they love it, but they still got to do like CrossFit classes where they still have to do they feel like they have to run five times a week or something like that. We're still having those conversations that we don't want to get in the way of what motivates them. And maybe there's something external like, like they need for their heads to be

Luke Carlson 17:45

if that's the case, yeah. And I and I can honor and recognize that then they have to understand intellectually, that there still may be a pyramid of how they should look at their exercise. And that essential exercise is still their, one to two really brief, intense resistance training workouts per week, build everything else on top of that, but just don't forget what's essential

Mike 18:07

the foundation

Luke Carlson 18:08

Exactly. I think right now, the problem is that people are saying, well, I don't do that, because I do this, well, you cannot swap them out. I mean, if you're adding other there's other things they have to be in addition to not replace it. I think we're in a culture where people have replaced the meaningful stimulus, the meaningful exercise

Mike 18:25

and our clients, they stay forever, like the most people, they don't stay with other programs. They stay with us because this is the thing they could stick to. It's something they get results from. And they you know, and they, you know, we have had people remember when Hence Orme walked out the door, he loved his results here. But he I think he thought he needed more. And then he realized this was what was essential.

Adam 18:45

By the way, that was the episode called The Return of the Prodigal client, if you want to listen to that was a great interview. You know, I want to wrap this up. But I do want to bring up a point when we were talking about the the intense stimulus and was important and people lost sight of that. And if they only knew that for 20 minutes, once a week that intention was will give them all they all they need. But but the essentialist also the essentialism book, it talks also about now this is a management book, and it's about how to run a company and how to run your relationship. So it's not about exercise, but they do talk about having fun, that's important to have fun. And your business. I mean, like I have on my desk right now I have a slinky. I got guitars around the office. I mean, we know how to let off some steam around here for that reason. But I also think it's important in our exercise program, when we talk about the intense workouts, it's not saying don't have fun outside of that, but don't call it exercise call it for what it is fun. Recreational pursuits is about enjoyment and stop mixing up your your your fun with your exercise.

Luke Carlson 19:47

And in fact, by doing the right exercise, you're going to better prepare yourself for all of that fun, that recreation, the sport the other activities that you're you're involved with. So I couldn't agree with you more perfectly stated

Adam 19:59

so Luke, pleasure having you here even though it was brief, it was great. Thanks for stopping by. Why don't you tell our audience you know, where they can find you contact you what you're doing where you are.

Luke Carlson 20:11

Yeah. So we're in Minnesota and we have three locations. We're building a fourth location right now. So we have one location downtown Minneapolis, one in Plymouth, which is a suburb of Minneapolis and another location in Chanhassen or under construction right now on a Woodbury location. So we've been very much inspired by inform fitness and Adams original book and if you are in the Minneapolis area, we'd love to have you drop in and experience a workout with us.

Tim Edwards 20:37

Thanks again to Luke Carlson, the founder and CEO of Discover Strength based in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And if you happen to be listening in the Minneapolis area, jump on over to discoverstrength.com to set up your own strength training session. We'll include links to discover strength in the show notes and links to Amazon and audible to pick up the book discussed here today by Greg McEwen titled essentialism, the disciplined pursuit of less, and as always links to Adam Zickerman's book, power of 10, the once a week slow motion fitness revolution. Now for those of you that reside near Manhattan, Port Washington, Denville, Burbank, Boulder, Leesburg, and Reston. We've got great news for you. At the time of this recording, which is November of 2017. There's a free session waiting for you at informfitness.com Click the button, try us free right there on the homepage. Fill out the form. Pick your location and enjoy a slow motion high intensity full body workout in just 20 minutes. Remember strength care is the new health care. Get on board and join inform nation. What do we got to lose? Except perhaps maybe a few lbs? Thanks again for listening to the inform fitness podcast for Adam, Mike and Sheila. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting Network.

View Details

We are welcoming back our guest from Episode 20, Bill DeSimone. As you might remember Bill is a personal trainer himself and the author of the book, Congruent Exercise: How To Make Weight Training Easier On Your Joints.

The reason we have invited Bill back to join us is to discuss Episode 36 that was released a couple months ago featuring body-builder Doug Brignole. Doug too is an author and his book is titled Million Dollar Muscle: A Historical and Sociological Perspective of the Fitness Industry.

Today Bill, Adam, and Mike will be comparing and contrasting their different methodologies and philosophies regarding weight training with that of Doug Brignole.

Bill DeSimone - Congruent Exercise: How To Make Weight Training Easier On Your Joints http://bit.ly/CongruentExercise

Adam Zickerman - Power of 10: The Once-A-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolutionhttp://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

Doug Brignole - Million Dollar Muscle: A Historical and Sociological Perspective of the Fitness Industry http://bit.ly/MillionDollarMuscle

To find an Inform Fitness location nearest you visit www.InformFitness.com.

42 Comparing and Contrasting Congruent Exercise Methodologies Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS

muscle, exercise, joint, compound movements, people, doug, lever, point, resistance, squat, abdominals, weight, moving, tricep, talking, bodybuilder, arm, podcast, stabilizing, movement

SPEAKERS

Tim Edwards, Mike, Doug Brignole, Adam, Bill DeSimone

Adam 00:05

I know it sounds like we're disagreeing with everything Doug has said on the last interview, you know, we agree 90% We're on the same page. I mean, the idea of paying attention to the biomechanics, protecting the joints, using a speed that safe trying to use little momentum as possible. Understanding that, you know, we're trying to get stronger. We're not trying to become a boxer or an athlete, you know, I mean, his idea his approach to general fitness and exercise. We're a lot closer in agreement than we are in disagreement, I would say.

Tim Edwards 00:43

Hello, and welcome to the inform fitness podcast with New York Times bestselling author, Adam Zickerman. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting network and a client of inform fitness. Now here in Episode 42, we are welcoming back our guest from Episode 20. Bill De Simone. As you might remember, Bill is a personal trainer himself and the author of the book congruent exercise, how to make weight training easier on your joints. So the reason we invited Bill back to join us is to discuss episode 36. That was released a couple of months ago featuring bodybuilder Doug Brignole. Doug too is an author and his book is titled million dollar muscle, a historical and sociological perspective of the fitness industry. Today, Bill, Adam and Mike will be comparing and contrasting their different methodologies and philosophies regarding weight training with that of Doug's. Interestingly, though, over the past 41 episodes, Doug and Bill's episodes are our top two and most downloaded episodes of the inform fitness podcast, I have a feeling that this one just made surpass both of them.

Adam 01:51

Yeah, I'm glad I'm glad to be doing this episode right now, because it brings up a point about the whole idea of of our podcast in the first place, which is that I don't want our podcast to be one big advertisement for inform fitness and my business and our one way of thinking, I want to really educate, I want to bring up the points. And the things that in exercise that are important to talk about. And to try to figure out there are still a lot of questions exercise that we don't have answers to. So I like to bring in other opinions that aren't necessarily of my own. And when we had Doug Brignole, on the bodybuilder a couple weeks ago, a lot of people first of all was one of our most downloaded episodes, people love that episode. However, the people that know me and my philosophy and been listening to all the other episodes have said, you know, Adam, did you actually agree with everything Doug was saying, I mean, he seemed to have contradicted you and a couple of points there. What's with that, because again, people are perceiving this podcast is just one maybe one big advertisement for my philosophy. And we don't know everything. And there are big questions out there. And what I wanted to do now and I wanted to, I want to bring Bill DeSimone back, because he also did a biomechanics episode with me. And that was also one of the most downloaded episodes. So obviously, we're hitting a nerve on this subject. And I'm doing this not necessarily, to show that Doug was wrong, per se. But I'm doing this because I want to point out that everything we're doing, Bill, Doug, myself, we're trying to figure things out, we're still trying to figure things out, as we safely apply exercise to our clients and give them what they're looking for. So let's start with one of the subjects that Doug and I had talked about, which was this idea of compound movements versus isolation movements and the virtues of both. And so so why don't we start with that?

Doug Brignole 03:49

Yeah, as you said, a compound movement is a multi joint multi muscle movement that some people refer to as functional, which is absurd, because it suggests that something that isn't compound is dysfunctional. Right. But that would almost suggest that if you do isolation exercises, somehow your body isn't going to be able to coordinate all of its various muscle strains at the same time. It's absurd. I mean, yes, it's true that if you're doing Dead Hang cleans, you get skilled at doing Dead Hang cleans, right. So that doesn't necessarily mean that you can cross that over into something that doesn't look anything like a dead hang clean, just means you're learning the skill, you're going to coordinate all of the muscles that participate in that movement in a particular event. But the idea that, that it's a compound movement will then make you better able to use those participating muscles as as compared to isolation exercises, has no logic in whatsoever,

Adam 04:48

you know, you agree with that for the most part, right?

Bill DeSimone 04:51

You know, when he says compound movements, though I'm not sure if he's referring to the circus tricks people do. In the name of functional exercise, you know, combining a squat or,

Adam 05:05

I think what he's really talking about is just your real basic compound move his leg press chest press, I would say pull down, compared to leg extension, leg curl, hip, hip extension, bicep curl, bicep curl.

Bill DeSimone 05:23

I'm not really sure where he's going with that, because, like, what's the context for this? I mean, who is claiming that compound movements are you know better or making you more coordinated

Adam 05:35

his his whole point is compound movements are inefficient.

Bill DeSimone 05:38

If I compound movements we're talking about

Adam 05:40

he's basically saying function or compound moves are considered like functional movements, and that you need to do compound movements, because it helps the muscles work together. It the muscles learn to work together in a compound movement. And the argument is that if you're only doing isolation movements or doing isolation where you're not, your muscles aren't learning to work together.

Bill DeSimone 05:58

Well, the first the first problem, though, is there is no muscle isolation. You're isolating a joint, okay? But no matter how much you think there's an isolation happen, it's more like emphasis, because other muscles are helping stabilize, and they're assisting even in a single joint movement. So there's no real isolation.

Adam 06:20

He's really everything he's talking about, as you know, because you listen to the whole thing. Everything he's talking about is really about muscle development. hypertrophy. Efficiency, right? So getting Max.

Bill DeSimone 06:34

That's really the context. Always. It's what's done. I bodybuilding and muscle develop, too, right?

Adam 06:39

Yeah, right? We are? I mean, yes, we do, too. That's where some of the disconnect is. I mean, like, again, his argument is that compound movements aren't going to be as beneficial for muscular development, because you're on a squat, for example, you know, a lot of the quadriceps are not going to get the full amount of that load, they're going to get 30% of that load on. So is the quads are going to get 30% of that load based on direction and the forces, you know, the force going through to tibia to the floor.

Bill DeSimone 07:11

Let's let's talk about that, then. Because Because in that case, I don't agree with it at all.

Adam 07:15

Well, that's, well he that's, that's Tim go to three, can you go to three

Tim Edwards 07:19

I can

Doug Brignole 07:20

like a lamppost is vertical, because a lamppost is vertical the gravity. And so it's balanced over its base. But if you tried to anchor that lamppost at a 45 degree angle, you have to bolt it down to the ground with a lot more force a lot more bolts, because now it wants to fall. Okay, so a lever that is parallel to gravity, or whatever resistance is going to be a zero, neutral lever, and one that is perpendicular to gravity, or whatever you happen to be using for resistance is going to be what I call a 100%, lever, a maximally active lever. So when you look at a squat, and you realize that the lower leg is the operating lever of the quadricep, and you realize it doesn't even reach a 45 degree angle, you say, Well, it's actually closer to neutral than it is to fully active

08:11

enough. Now look, identifying the Levers is is half the discussion. Alright, so when when the femur for instance, is horizontal, in a bottom of a squat, that is where the resistance is working through its biggest lever, but that's only half the story because where that hits in the muscle torque curve is also important. So when you go from standing in a squat with a zero resistance moment arm, and so no work to oppose, and now you squat down to where your femur is horizontal and you have a maximum resistance moment arm

Adam 08:49

for the for the hip extensors not Not, not the knee extensors.

08:53

That's not what it's a both. It's a both. I mean, it's, it's murky, because it's not as clean a look as in a single joint. But when your femur is horizontal in a squat,

Adam 09:07

and the weight it's going down perpendicular to it.

Bill DeSimone 09:10

Yeah, the weight is going down somewhat in the middle of the femur,

Adam 09:14

yeah, slight. In other words, shoulders if it's on your shoulders, and you're bending

Bill DeSimone 09:17

Yes, let's let's paint the a lot of this stuff works better and diagrams and print. But to paint the picture, there's a barbell on your back, when you're standing upright, that the line of that weight is going through all of your joints. So there's no lever created for the weight to for you to work against

Adam 09:37

right

Bill DeSimone 09:37

as far as the weights concerned. And now as you descend, and your femur goes horizontal and your torso leans forward a bit. your center of gravity is splitting the femur horizontally. So that is the biggest resistance moment arm for both the glutes and the quads. So that's mechanically hardest part of the squat, the sinking point. But it also happens to be very close to the joint angles for peak muscle torque for both the quads and the glutes,

Adam 10:09

where that is where the muscles are, can generate the most power, their most power, the most strength,

Bill DeSimone 10:15

right see, the more visible lever is the one that the resistance works through. But internally, depending on where you are in a joint, in the joints range, you have varying degrees of muscle torque. So identifying the lever is half of it, but knowing that it hits at the right point in the muscle strength is the other half. Now, something like a barbell squat, leaving other joint concerns out of it, if you don't lock out at the top, and you don't bottom out, if you go from that almost locked out to the femur being horizontal, almost. Or approximately horizontal, your effort, your effort feels very even, there's no sticking point, there's no lockout. Alright, so that makes an efficient exercise. So there's no place to rest, there's no place for the muscle to hide. So it's not necessarily less efficient than a leg extension.

Adam 11:12

Gotcha.

Bill DeSimone 11:13

Since you can't lock out the leg extension, it's very obvious and your quads are burning, say by the first rep or two, it's very obvious how efficient that is, you make a little tweak to a squat or a leg press and it's just as efficient. Where it gets inefficient is when you lock out or you bought them out. So just like you wouldn't rest the weight stack on lay extension to take a break to do another repetition. If you don't lock out in the in the squat or the leg press, you're not giving yourself that rest. So as far as which is more more efficient, you know, you could make the argument that the squats more efficient because you're also working the glutes at the same time,

Adam 11:53

you're also performing at their appropriately at their muscle torque at the right time.

Bill DeSimone 11:59

Right now that's putting aside all the other joint issues with those exercises

Adam 12:04

like lower back

Bill DeSimone 12:05

like the lower back, but but also the knee and the knee and the leg extension. So I mean, my approach to compound versus, or multiple multi joint versus single joint movements is both you need to be aware of the vulnerable joint positions in both of them. So to me the issue is, which is the easier workaround, and that might be different based on your your client. I know if I personally barbell squat, my back's gonna bother me. Even though I know what ranges I want to stay in. So to me, the easier workaround is just go to the leg press. But for somebody who has the technique down of a barbell squat, or you know, and if their back can handle it, if they're staying well, within their their margin of error, maybe it works for them, which is a little bit different than, you know, trying to correlate like a hang clean or any of these more explosive movements and try to relate that to to a wellness program. In that terms, I agree with him completely. There's no, there's no reason for people to be doing ballistic type stuff, unless that's your sport, you know, unless your sport is Olympic lifting, and you have to learn how to clean

Mike 13:15

I guess, you know, something, you know, we're talking about, like, I, you know, Adam sort of mentioned numbers, and Doug talked about it in his in the podcast also about percentages. And like, you know, I guess it's hard, it's difficult to discuss how what percentage of the quadriceps are being recruited when you do a squat versus the percentage of the quadricep when you're doing the leg extension? Like 90% versus 60%, that type of thing? And I guess, you know, like, I mean, Doug comes from a bodybuilding background, are his arguments more appropriate for that type of setting? And let's just say like he is right, and the leg extension is much more efficient than like a like our simple movement is made more efficient than a compound movement. Does it matter anyway for like muscle development for general fitness anyway?

Bill DeSimone 14:05

And they and there's and there's a real question, why is the person working out so in other words, if someone's in a in a wellness mindset, in other words, they want to work out so that they get through the physical parts of their day better and their joints don't hurt. And maybe they fit the clothes better, and they look more toned. There's no need for them to take a bodybuilders approach to you know, I have to get this muscle as bunched up as possible. But also, there's no need for that person, say our client to put their joints at any more risk than they need to. So if someone wants to be a power lifter or wants to be a bodybuilder, and they're convinced that the barbell squat is the greatest thing they can do for themselves, you're probably not going to convince them not to. But there's probably no reason for somebody who doesn't have any ambitions in the barbell squat, to subject the rest of their joints that type of risk.

Adam 14:59

Understood I agree

Bill DeSimone 15:00

you know, some of the content of your last podcast. So a lot of it has to do with the context. So he's obviously from the bodybuilding world. And what he sees going on in bodybuilding gyms are probably much different from my context. Whereas I'm in a studio like you guys. So I'm not really exposed to a lot of the trendier parts of the fitness industry to react against, I can just look at a technique or an exercise and figure out if it's useful and use it or not, I'm not seeing it every day. For instance, in my studio, though, he's doing a dead hang clean anyway. So you know, you know, we have a little different context for the for the comment,

Mike 15:37

I think, like I think sometimes exercise programs, you know, we think about it. And I think sometimes where we might be thrown into that category, sometimes, too, because we want to see our clients progress and be able to do more, you know, it shows them that they're getting stronger if they lift 50 pounds, and then 60 pounds, and then 80 pounds and so on. Is that an appropriate goal for a general exercise program to just be able to get the maximum out of whatever your muscle can do? You know, and how much do you want to balance that with, you know, what the joint may or may not be able to do? You know, and how far do you want to test it? I guess, in a way?

Bill DeSimone 16:18

Well, I mean, I would say protecting the joint is is number one, but then again, that's my that is my thing.

Adam 16:25

And I would say most of our listeners are of that ilk. I mean, there were not I don't think too many body builders are listening to this. These podcast episodes,

Bill DeSimone 16:34

probably not right, right.

Adam 16:36

Unless some of Doug's friends tuned into that interview.

Mike 16:41

He got a lot of people to listen to him.

Adam 16:42

Yes, he did. So along the same lines, I like to kind of have you comment on this? Because I think I think the answer is the same when he talks about tricep pushdowns. Versus dips. So can you play that clip? Tim

Doug Brignole 16:56

getting back to what we were talking about before about parallel levers versus perpendicular numbers, when you see someone doing a bench dip, or a parallel bar dip, and you notice that their forearm is almost vertical? It only breaks from the neutral vertical position by about 11 degrees,

Adam 17:14

which is it, which means

Doug Brignole 17:18

you're only getting about 11%. Right? Right. So here's the math I do on that, as I say if you're 180 pound guy, and you want to figure out how much load each tricep is going to get. You say okay, I'm 180 pounds, I'm going to divide that by two arms, that's 90, the length of your forearm is about a 12 to one ratio, so you have a magnification of 12. So you see 90 times 12 times 11% active lever gives you about 119 pounds of load per tricep, at a cost of 180 pounds of effort. But if that same person would lie on a flat bench with a pair of 20 pound dumbbells, squat with a pair for him does actually cross gravity at 100%. You do the same math, you say 20 pounds times 12 times 100% is 240 pounds of load per tricep, at a total cost of 40 pounds. Right? So this is efficiency? Why would you bother doing an exercise that cost you 180 pounds of effort, but only load your tricep with 119 pounds when you can do 40 pounds of cost and 240 pounds of load. And it's not like it's working a different head of the tricep? Right? All three heads are working in both ways. It's just that they're they have drastically different efficiencies. Well.

Bill DeSimone 18:40

I'll take his word for it on the calculations.

Adam 18:43

Yeah. You follow them on that? Right?

Bill DeSimone 18:45

I followed it. I didn't necessarily agree with it. But I thought I followed where he was going. But again now so

Adam 18:52

this is along the lines they were talking about before correct?

Bill DeSimone 18:54

it's the same thing. The choice between skull crushers and depth is are your elbows healthier than your shoulders, that's that's the choice. Okay, let's leave the joint issues aside. If you dip till your elbows at 90 degree bend, and your elbows are towards the rear with your torso held somewhat vertically, and at that 90 degree bend. Now you straighten your elbows and almost lock out as a pretty good match for how the resistance level changes according to your muscle torque for the triceps. The same thing with with skull crushes the 90 degree bend as your maximum moment arm and then if you stop short of locking out you keeping some of the resistance torque on the triceps. So that's also a good match.

Adam 19:41

Let me just explain that real fast. So when you're doing skull crushers and you have your forearms parallel to the ground

Bill DeSimone 19:46

correct

Adam 19:47

right and you have weight at the end of your hands. All right, you're multiplying that weight by the longest lever the whole length of your forearm, which is the heaviest that weight is at that moment. Well that also happens to be at the 90 degree angle of your elbow. That also happens to be the strongest part of your triceps, that's when your tricep is at its strongest. As you lift the weight, the lever changes mean the weight gets lighter because the lever shortens as you go up, which is okay because the tricep strength. Muscle torque actually is

Bill DeSimone 20:16

also decreasing, right

Adam 20:17

decreasing, right, that's the skull crushers now is the same thing happening during dips

Bill DeSimone 20:23

with it now with the depths, okay, when your elbow is bent at 90 degrees, not necessarily a shoulder, so your elbow is a little bit behind your torso, if you stopped there, that's the biggest resistance moment arm for your body weight in the dips, alright, without tearing your shoulders out. And now as you straighten your elbows, the resistance library is shrinking. And it's matching what your triceps can do. Now a couple of things about what you said there. When your forearm is horizontal, its heaviest. So that's that's the whole thing with levers and moment arms, right? It's not heavier, it's the same dumbbell.

Adam 20:58

No, of course, the torque

Bill DeSimone 21:00

technically is the resistance,

Adam 21:02

resistance, the foot pounds is increased.

Bill DeSimone 21:05

Now here's the problem with both of those exercises. Conventionally you start both of those exercises, where where the resistance torque is lightest, you start both of those exercises with your arms locked. So it's very easy to fool yourself. think you can handle more weight, yeah, exactly. Could you use too much weight and as soon as your elbows bend, now the bigger lever now the bigger resistance moment, arms kick in. And now it becomes unmanageable. This lever the levers in a moment arm, it's not just theoretical, it's got a very real practical effect, especially when you start the exercise. But the smallest resistance lever

Adam 21:44

when they're choosing a weight, they choose a weight and they start with their arms locked out, which doesn't feel like a lot of resistance, it can be a lot, it can be a lot of weight, but it since you're the weight is right over your elbows. Straight arm, you're not really feeling that resistance yet. As soon as you bend back. If you pick the weight that's too heavy for your triceps to handle, you're gonna you're gonna literally crush your skulls. So yeah, so the technique should be this. If you're going to do skull crushers, pick a weight that feels appropriate at the 90 degree angle, not not at the topping, not at the top,

Bill DeSimone 22:19

the thing to do would be to try to either start at the bottom. So you know right away the weights too heavy, right? So if you using dumbbells for skull crushers, for instance, you start on the floor, and you start with the dumbbells by your ears as you're lying on the floor. And now you'll know right away if it's too heavy, or, you know, the trainer or the the person doing the exercise the first time you do it, you have to guess light, because it doesn't take you know,

Mike 22:49

that's the key, you guess light when you don't know, you gotta go, you gotta think, like, really, really, light when any client asks me how to advise them on at a travel jam or somewhere there whether out of I said, Listen, you know, it lessens the exact same thing you don't know, especially if it's on a machine you have to you have to just guess light and, and and work up from there.

Adam 23:12

Particularly when there's like that timber effect that you have to worry about.

Bill DeSimone 23:18

Nice quote. I like that.

Adam 23:21

I think I got that from you.

Bill DeSimone 23:22

It was, in a moment of exercise. Yeah.

Adam 23:26

I steal a phrase while I'm interviewing the person that came up with it.

Bill DeSimone 23:32

It's flattery. By the way, that dynamic we talk about going from the easy part of it starting with the easy part of the exercise, progressing into the hard part or zero moment arm to maximum moment arm that is predictable. I mean, you can know that before you do it. But you have to make a point of studying it, you know, reading moment arm exercise or, or the biomechanics chapters in virtually any personal training certification will give you enough information to know what's happening. I think most people look at the exercise in a magazine to look at somebody in the gym doing the exercise and just try to copy what they see.

Adam 24:12

So moving on to some other points. Doug is of the opinion that for again for muscle hypertrophy for muscle development, that static exercises are inferior to dynamic exercises that that if you really want to build muscle statics are not enough. And let's listen to what he has to say.

Doug Brignole 24:28

There have been a number of studies that have shown that isometric exercise is far less productive, both from the perspective of developing a muscle enlarging the muscle. And from the perspective of gaining strength through a muscles entire range of motion. It gains strength, right where you're holding it. It does it gains a little strength in the other parts of the range of motion but not nearly as much. So if you want strength if you want What the Let's use the word functional strength, strength through muscles entire range of motion, you're better off using range of motion. Right So is there a place for isometric? Sure, if you have an injured joint

Adam 25:04

rehab

Doug Brignole 25:05

then you use as part of your rehabilitation. But this idea that we're going to do planks, as the best exercise for the ABS would be like saying, well, let's just do static everything then. Let's just do static wall squat where you just hold a squat position. Let's just do static barbell hold. Let's just do static pectoral hold. I mean, if it's good for one, it's good for all if it's not good for one, it's not good for all.

Adam 25:30

All right, so, so so so I heard that and I was like, was the first time I kind of really heard that? I mean, and I've always wondered about, you know, is dynamic exercise better than statics? I mean, you know, I have a lot of clients do planks, and it is metabolic demanding, but maybe, I don't know, maybe he's, I mean, he's a bodybuilder, right. So he spent the last 40 years playing around with with maximizing his hypertrophy. And do you think he has some insights that us mere mortals don't have?

Bill DeSimone 25:59

No. Okay. Going through the body building, right?

Adam 26:06

Yeah

Bill DeSimone 26:06

just from observation, there does seem to be something about moving your lemon space.

Adam 26:12

Hmm.

Bill DeSimone 26:13

That works. And whether it's going to failure or the pump, or whatever the mechanism is, clearly, most guys were over developed, or moving weights in space. Okay. Maybe that's to do with cumulating lactic acid and prompting hormonal changes. But let's go to the end of that passage where he talks about planks. And if it's good for one muscle is good for all the difference between planks and other abdominal, other core and abdominal exercises. Their job is to prevent unwanted movement, not necessarily to create movement. So elsewhere in the podcast, he says that the primary role of the abdominals is to move your hips and ribs closer together.

Adam 26:57

But really, it's coming up to the ribs, not the other way around, because he was defining why you call something the origin and why you call something the insertion.

Bill DeSimone 27:05

I'll deal with that in a minute but no, no, but let's just go back to the second here. Okay. As a bodybuilder, though, he thinks in terms of limbs moving right

Adam 27:18

yes

Bill DeSimone 27:18

curls, pectorals, lats, quad, etc. The limbs are moving. When you're getting into planks, though the role of the abdominals isn't necessarily to bring the hips and ribs closer together, except in a sneeze or cough. The role of the abdominals is to prevent hyperextension of the back. Because if you get forced into hyperextension, you hurt you hurt your back, whatever mechanism. So the role of the front of the abdominals is to prevent hyperextension. The role of the multifidus and rotate tours around the spine isn't to create a twist around the spine, which would ring out the discs, which is pretty much universally contrary contraindicated for a spine health. The role of those muscles is to prevent twisting. So the more appropriate way to exercise those muscles is with a plank, or is with some kind of static hold, because that's how they're going to have to function.

Adam 28:17

But when you're doing a plank, are you talking about it is appropriate for the abs for the plank?

Bill DeSimone 28:22

Yeah

Adam 28:23

but but it's the it's the spinal muscles that are really stabilizing during the plank. I mean, but the abs too of course,

Bill DeSimone 28:29

elsewhere in that podcast, he talked about doing a leg raise, and the so as pulled on the on the vertebrae, creating more of an arch for the lower back. But that's only half of what happens there. Mike, you in that podcast, you said what if you maintain a posterior pelvic tilt and that and that's the key there. If you use your abdominals to pull your hips into a posterior tilt, in other words, you're flattening the curve of your back against the spine. And now you're doing the right leg raise and your spine doesn't move. Now you're using the abdominals to stabilize the spine. The raising of the leg just gives you a bit of a flow in the exercise, okay, and that you have something to count or you move it from an easier position where your legs are straight up to a harder one where they're more horizontal. But that is a stabilizing exercise and it's using the front of the abdominals. In practice a two leg raise both legs at the same time is probably too hard for most people to do, and maintain that posterior tilt. Which is why you see things like Single Leg Raises and dead bug exercises come out of physical therapy. But the whole idea of using your abdominals to create the posterior tilt and then moving your legs. That's valid, that's legit as far as stabilizing the spine and using your abdominals appropriately. Now, it may be that planks won't give you protruding abdominals like that protruding six pack and just from observing bodybuilders over time and they're pumping their biceps and they have a bicep that lifts off their arm like a softball. And all most of us high intensity guys have something on our upper arm, but it's certainly not, you know by the name of current bodybuilder. So maybe

Adam 30:11

I can't

Bill DeSimone 30:13

I can't either. Maybe moving moving the hips towards the ribs with force is what gives you maybe by whatever mechanism that gives you those protruding abdominals. But as far as training the spine appropriately, the abdominals appropriately to stabilize, the spine planks are fine planks are, are appropriate.

Adam 30:32

So when he makes a blanket statement that if dynamic movement is good for one muscle, it's good for all that might not be true because you know, some muscles are meant to be stabilized, but they're not primary movers. So, strengthening them by not require any dynamic movement.

Bill DeSimone 30:48

And again, keeping the bodybuilding context most of what bodybuilders are talking about are the the superficial muscles that give your body shape. They're talking about deltoids, pectorals, lats, biceps, triceps, quads, glutes, those muscles that are supposed to move limbs, or propel you in space, probably are best trained with movement, as opposed to the muscles around your spine, the deep muscles in your hips, rotator cuff, whose main job is to hold the posture steady.

Adam 31:26

So you really think that let's say for the deltoids, the lateral deltoids? Do you really do think like a lateral raise? Going through safe range of motion is better than doing a static hold lateral raise for muscle development?

Bill DeSimone 31:39

Do? I think so? Not necessarily.

Adam 31:41

I mean, is there? Are there studies that compare statics versus dynamic for a particular muscle group?

Bill DeSimone 31:47

I will say from a practical point of view, if you're using an isometric for let's say, use it for biceps, right, I do think there's a difference between pulling against something as hard as you can, in terms of straining the joint straining one point, the articulation, as opposed to resisting a negative for a minute. They're both static. One, I think is harder on the joints than the other. But as far as which is better for the muscle. I couldn't even guess.

Adam 32:21

Well, a lot of people that kind of feel strongly one way or the other on this, and then I don't know what they're basing it on. Which Okay,

Bill DeSimone 32:26

I mean, I don't know. I don't know, either. I'm, let's put it this way, I do think in a non therapy setting. Okay. Because, because if you're in rehab it, the calculation is different. In a non therapy setting, I do think the more appropriate way to train the bigger, more superficial muscles, is with some kind of movement, whether it's single joint or multiple joint, and the muscles around the core with static, static contractions. Because that's how they, that's how they'll function in life, right? If you got to lift something out of the trunk of your car, something heavy, a bag, you lean over, you want your back to stay steady, while your glutes and your arms do the lifting. You don't have to be whipping kettlebells around and doing silly human tricks to train functionally. You can also just be maintaining your posture while you're lifting weights because that's how it's supposed to work.

Adam 33:26

Right? Yeah, so we talked about that on a recent episode. Exactly that the idea of mimicking those movements, you know, in the gym, because you happen to do it once in a while outside of the gym.

Mike 33:42

Bill, what do you just in light of what you just said in regards to you know, stabilizing core muscles. What's your just overall view on the rotary torso exercise? As far as strengthening obliques? multifidus, abdominals.

Bill DeSimone 34:01

I think you have to be careful that your obliques, which are going to help you twist, you know there's the part of the twist that's bringing your shoulder forward can easily overpower the parts around the muscles around your spine that bring the other shoulder backward. So if you're doing the rotary torso, you don't really want the person twisting, in other words you dont want them pulling back as much as they're pushing forward. Just so that you don't overpower those back those deep spine muscles. It's for instance, the old fashioned floor crunch. We did like a little twist on the way up. You didn't really pull the bottom shoulder backwards so you never twisted your back on that exercise. On a rotary torso. Again, if someone's overly enthusiastic, and in addition to pushing forward they're trying to pull back like in a dumbbell row like a like a lawn mower. Lawn Mower motion pull. Yeah, I could easily see the forward motion overpowering the back motion, and now you're back in the position of ringing the discs. So I think in terms of coaching people on it, I think as long as they feel both sit bones on the seat, in other words as far as they can go without moving to sit bones off the seat, right? So if if one sit bone lifts off, you know, they're twisting a little too much, if they both sit bones are intact, their range of motion is going to be less, but it's going to be a little safer.

Mike 35:30

Would you ever I mean, what do you think about just like maybe even like getting them rotated, say, whatever, 25 30 degrees and just holding it at that position?

Adam 35:40

under tension

Mike 35:41

under tension,

Adam 35:42

with a band or something?

Bill DeSimone 35:44

Well, like I said, 25 30 degrees I, I think 25 degrees of rotation 25 to 30 degrees, rotation is the right amount more is not better.

Mike 35:55

Right

Bill DeSimone 35:56

If somebody tries to go further than that, then then they're flirting with trouble.

Mike 36:01

That's the that's the, you know, going, you know, trying to recreate the golf swing, things like that, where how far do you actually train, rotate? Whatever the muscle is that you want to be strong or stable when you have to actually do a rotating movement in order to do something that you want to do, you know?

Bill DeSimone 36:19

Well, I think I think I wrote somewhere that practicing bed biomechanics doesn't make you invulnerable. Right, you're just wearing out that joint faster. A golfer for instance, to practice that extreme swing beyond what you have to do on the course, is just adding more bad swing more bad movements to his back. Right. So for training purposes

Mike 36:43

and adding resistance to it also

Bill DeSimone 36:46

resistance and reps and speed probably right, right. So if you do remember Don Mattingly years ago, you know,

Mike 36:54

we are New Yorkers, of course,

Bill DeSimone 36:56

yeah, no, I forgot. Get away with that reference.

Adam 36:58

I was still I was a Yankee fan back then

Mike 37:00

in LA man. He coached the Dodgers too.

Bill DeSimone 37:03

So we've lost Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, at the end of his career, he said, you know, his back went out. And he said, Yeah,

Adam 37:10

Thats why he's not in the hall of fame right now.

Bill DeSimone 37:12

I've been doing this exercise for 20 years, and I was never, you know, it's never heard before. Well, okay, so you're doing whatever you're doing, plus 1000s of swings on the field, you only get so many bad movements out of your back. So you can either waste some in the in the gym or in competition.

Adam 37:30

Yeah, he meets, he obviously reached his limit.

Bill DeSimone 37:33

Like you would never tell a guy like that. Never twist. But if anybody like that ever asked me, I would look at what they were doing in the gym and steer them away from the stuff that is clearly contradictory. With regard to joint safety.

Mike 37:48

Well, my my comment was more rhetorical about like associating with golf, but I wanted to bring it up, because it's what I think a lot of our listeners and a lot of people still think about trying to strengthen their backs or increase their range of motion in order to efficiently and hopefully safely do a golf swing. And, you know, just bringing up rotary torso as an exercise, which people some people just love to feel because oh my god, my obliques are feeling it.

Adam 38:21

And and they want to go to the extremes that range of motion. They love that stretch, which I never let them go into right. Yeah, well, the reason why I actually, you know, something, I don't know, if I read it, or if I just thinking common sense wise, you know, when I want someone to do a rotary torso, it with range of motion, it usually wouldn't, you know, go beyond about 25 to 30 degrees, and oftentimes, less and oftentimes, even less than that. But I just wanted to get your opinion and based on what we were talking about in regards to the static core type of stuff. And if that's if you think that is he actually better for creating stability for a golf swing.

Bill DeSimone 39:03

Yes, but it's also worth working on range of motion, just not with weights.

Mike 39:10

Correct. Right. Right

Bill DeSimone 39:11

Okay. And that's where whatever you want to call it, bodywork stretching. If someone's into yoga, I mean, there is something to be said about trying to increase your range of motion but but not with weights, right?

Mike 39:24

Yeah. Yeah. Good

Bill DeSimone 39:26

The old the old. The old very old Nautilus idea that strengthen your muscles safely and then practice so you buy learns how to use your muscles. I think that's so good.

Adam 39:36

I agree. Yep

Mike 39:37

Yeah, the, honestly, from a training perspective, the thing I encourage is like if your golf swing is your golf swing, and you need to be at a certain point on the backswing, and you need to be at a certain point on your follow through. I've literally just recommended a very slow motion swing to the point slow motion where you get to the point of your maximum that backswing where that ever that is with whatever limitations your body has. And then very slowly bringing the club through, you know, so you're not actually adding X, you know, this projectile force, a, you know, rotating with your body.

Adam 40:15

It's like Tai Chi style

Mike 40:16

but it's just and then inevitably, it's what you just said, it's just kind of like getting your body used to being in this quote, unquote, extended range of motion position that golf requires.

Bill DeSimone 40:25

And what Adam just said about tai chi style. So the idea is, you do it in slow motion, so your body knows how to do it safely. Right, then when you do it live, your body has done it before,

Mike 40:39

right? It has like it walked before it ran.

Bill DeSimone 40:42

You know it's like, if someone's playing volleyball or playing basketball, they should be doing some kind of jumping drill, not for conditioning, but just so they they know how to land safely

Adam 40:57

Right

Bill DeSimone 40:58

And then when they don't do a competition, it's not a shock.

Mike 41:01

Right, right.

Adam 41:02

Yeah. Which is not new

Mike 41:04

It's actually yeah, that's such an interesting point. Because especially for sports, because everyone always measures how high you can jump, but not exactly how well you can actually safely land. It is it says the blend

Adam 41:19

landing is a lot more important than jumping isnt it

Mike 41:20

in your longevity and being able to do the activity, the landing is infinitely more important than the height that you could actually achieve on the job. That's a good point.

Bill DeSimone 41:29

Not the fall. It's a sudden stop.

Mike 41:32

Yeah,

Adam 41:32

it's not how much you make. It's how much you keep. Yeah.

Mike 41:36

There's a there's a comedian who said, This reminded me of it. It's a stretch right now pun intended. But he said, like, you know, they got cars nowadays, they get from zero to 60 in 4.2 seconds, because I don't need that I need a car that gets me from 88 to 54 in 1 second. I don't even know who said it.

Adam 41:59

That's a good point. So this reminds me of something else that came up while I was interviewing Doug. Regarding sport specific training,

Doug Brignole 42:07

I would say if you're sports conditioning, you want to mimic your sport as much as possible. The problem is that a lot of people fantasize about being a sportsman of some sort. And then in the real world, they don't actually do it. In other words, they'll train like a boxer, but they're never really gonna box. Right? They just like the idea that the training like a boxer, right? Okay, if you're, if your idea of working out is mostly fun, then that's great. But if you're let's say you're lying on your flat on your back with a pair of 20 pound dumbbells, and you're gonna explode with those 20 pound dumbbells up, you're going to basically catapult those 20 pound dumbbells up, right, and that's going to pull your arms up. So if your objective is to gain strength, basic, usable strength, I would say always use a deliberate speed, not an explosive speed, control it up, control it down. If your goal if your niche is so specific, that you want to compete in boxing, you want to compete in tennis, then you do want to actually mimic what you're doing. But my observation has been that especially in men, we have this fantasy, and they want to be a 400 pound bench presser, they want to be a boxer, they want to be a swimmer, they want to be you know, a surfer, and they want to, and there's only so many hours in the day, you can't spend three hours. I mean, you got to work, you got to sleep, you probably have a job and family and you know, you got to pick and choose you can't do it. All right,

Adam 43:37

true. But like you're not saying however. I mean, there's let me just make sure I'm clear on what you're saying. Because if you we have clients that are our true athletes, you know, their amateur athletes, and let's say you have a tennis player, you're not suggesting that we kind of mimic with weights in the weight room, a tennis stroke, just to just to improve their their tennis stroke, are you?

Doug Brignole 44:01

I would say that that could be part of what you do, not all of what you do. But I would definitely if I had a tennis of competitive tennis athlete, I would definitely work specifically on let's say, a backhand, trying to mimic some resistance on the backhand. So he's getting an improvement of power on the backhand or on an overhand. I mean, you don't want these people to go out on the court or wherever they get, and then

Adam 44:25

why dont you strengthen their why dont you strengthen their deltoids that are involved in this and either the posterior delts anterior delts congruently, you know, according to muscle and joint function that then let them go out on a tennis court and start playing tennis,

Doug Brignole 44:36

that that would work also. But I'm just saying that if I had a tennis athlete, it wouldn't hurt to also incorporate some very, very specific, I would say maybe 10% 15% of how I would train them might be mimicking certain sport, especially if they have a weakness in a particular part of their game.

Bill DeSimone 44:56

I think I think it would hurt. I think Darden you ago pointed out that you don't practice for tennis by playing badminton. You know, like, if the movement is similar, it just throws you off to the real movement, some of that condition is more appropriately done on the tennis court than in a weight room, I would I would do what you suggested, you know, strengthen the rotator cuff in the shoulders. Strengthen everything safely. And then, you know

Adam 45:25

go play tennis

Bill DeSimone 45:26

practice, practice drills with the with the ball, right. But you know, if you ever hear any hit influenced, say college strength coaches, they'll also admit that people around them want to see this type of behavior, right? They don't want to see an empty weight room, because everyone got their workout done in 20 minutes is now off killing time. You know, they want to see people running with parachutes. And, you know, doing all the different stunts, because it looks like something's happening. So

Adam 46:02

they gotta judge that the athletic trainers have to they have justify their existence. I know, it's, it's, but you know, thing is, uh, I know, it sounds like we're disagreeing with everything Doug has said on the last interview. But like, as you and I talked about offline, not too long ago, Bill, you know, we agree 90%, right, we're on we're on the same page. I mean, the idea of paying attention to the biomechanics, protecting the joints, using a speed that safe, trying to use little momentum as possible. Understanding that, you know, we're trying to get stronger, we're not trying to become a boxer or an athlete, you know, I mean, his idea, his approach to general fitness and exercise. You know, we're a lot closer in agreement than we are in disagreement, I would say, wouldn't you?

Bill DeSimone 46:52

Well, the difference between, practically between what he does, what I do, what you do, what other hit practitioners do, the difference between all of us, is nothing compared to the difference between us and CrossFit and boot camps, right? I mean, we're talking about shades of difference, you know, in my case, you know, maybe maybe trimming off parts of the extreme range of motion that some hit guys might be doing, which is really, really nuanced differences compared to running people until they puke, for instance, or barking at him to do more burpees regardless of their form, regardless of their posture, you know, regardless of what's happening to the person's joints, but they hit a number, so high five them.

Adam 47:39

So before we wrap up, there is one more thing that I want to talk about, which was interesting to me. It's about intensity in recovery. And I'd like to play I like to play a clip from that

Doug Brignole 47:51

there is a right level of intensity. In my book, I have a chart where I show what happens if the intensity level is too low. What happens if it's too high? And what happens if it's just right? And clearly, just right, has nothing but benefit. But if it's too low, you won't get the benefit. If its too high. It's like getting a sunburn. In other words, instead of giving you stimulation, you get injury. And when you have an injury, you actually basically have to heal. So some people think, hey, if I workout super intensely, and I just work a body part once a week, in other words, take a longer amount of time between workouts, I can compensate for the high intensity, no, you cannot, it doesn't work that way. You can't. It's unlike recovery time is the great equalizer like if you do more frequency, you can do super low intensity. Or if you do super high intensity, just take a little extra time and everything will be fine. No, pretty much the way the body works is when you work on muscle, you're going to have somewhere between a two day and four day amount of recovery. After which comes with a call super compensation. That's when the muscle is getting stronger. Right. So the goal is to not work that muscle again, assuming you've worked in relatively hard to not work and until you've passed recovery, and have gotten into super compensation.

Adam 49:08

So Bill, it seems that that Doug is recommending for most people about two or three days recovery and he doesn't think that if you work out like super hard going to muscle failure and everything where you're going maybe 10 seconds beyond positive failure, for example, with maximal effort, that if you do that once a week, you you can make up for that high intensity by just having extra rest. And a lot of as you know, a lot of hit facilities, high intensity training facilities are recommending a lot of people work. A full body compound movements, six or seven exercises, complete failure. take a week off. I mean, where do you where do you sit on the intensity versus recovery can tinuum, if you will, I understand

Bill DeSimone 50:01

the theory, because mentor mentor said similar things 35 40 years ago about not working out until you're fully recovered. But you know that then it got ridiculous where he's suggesting workout once every three weeks, you know, stretching the recovery out so long that if you were to say I don't work out most of the time, you wouldn't be lying, right? If you're working out once every three weeks. So for myself and the type of clients I'm training, I kind of moderate the intensity based on how much they they're going to work out. So for people who are using us, for instance, because we're their only physical activity, and maybe they're going to work out twice a week, I'm going to moderate the intensity, so they can work out productively twice a week, like, I'm not going to try to drop them so that they're sore the second time. And the other thing with training too hard. You know, it's one thing if your muscles have to recover, it's another thing if your joints have to recover, you know, it's if failure looks like your teeth are clenching, your veins are bulging, you know, spits coming out of your mouth, it's more than your muscles that have to recover. So at this time in life, I tend to go a little easier on the intensity, I think the intention, intensity can be managed also, again, keeping in mind that most of the people I'm dealing with are using me for their physical activity in life. You know, these are not people who are regularly, you know, walking, running, doing sports, if they were, I would train them harder once a week, was that kind of physically active person?

Adam 51:39

Well, it's very true. And I'm glad you said that, because a lot of people ask me, So what determines once or twice a week? Or more or less? And I always say, Well, depends what else you do outside of here and the intensity level and your lifestyle, how much sleep stress. I mean, there are a lot of variables that I ultimately take into account before we decide what the frequency intensity duration ends up being

Mike 52:05

plus we see how they respond to the exercise itself. I mean, you know, on its own, I think sometimes you just need some time to see how they feel, how they're how they're doing, you know, like, they're like, Oh, well, you know,

Adam 52:18

and it's Tim Ryan and I, I've always talked about and, and he's, you know, does a lot of research in this area, and that is the genetic component and, and how we're genetically going to respond to exercise and people are different in that regard. Where do you feel I pretty much you know, just work out hard, modulate it to an extent and then move on. Don't overthink it.

Bill DeSimone 52:41

I've put in a lot of thought into not overthinking. I've had a lot of thought into this. And I came to the conclusion. Don't overthink it. You know? And again, why is the person working out if the person is intent on being a bodybuilder looking like a bodybuilder competing as a bodybuilder, then they're going to do something excessive either with you without you. That's not necessarily the same for the person, you know, the businessman or woman who comes to you and says, you know, I just need to get in shape and it's very vague. And their idea of a hard workout is what you would call a a break in workout. But their perception of it is all out. It's so hard. So

Adam 53:25

I'm with you

Bill DeSimone 53:26

Yeah, I put a lot of thought into not overthinking.

Adam 53:30

Alright, I think I think that's a good place to end this. It was it was perfect.

Tim Edwards 53:39

Thanks again to Bill DeSimone for taking the time to join us once again here on the inform fitness podcast. We will include links in the show notes to Adam, Bill and Doug's books, so you can pick them up in Amazon and have them delivered right to your door. Hey, for those of you who reside near Manhattan, Port Washington, Denville. Burbank, Boulder, Leesburg and Reston. Good news. There's an inform fitness near you. pop on over to informfitness.com to get a glimpse of each location. Better yet, set up a consultation and begin your own journey with a power of 10 Thanks so much for listening and until next time for Adam Mike and Sheila of inform fitness. I'm Tim Edwards of the inbound podcasting Network.

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Strength care is health care! Building muscle throughout your lifetime has many more benefits than just burning fat so you can look good and maintain your functionality.

Mike Rogers shares intimate details of how building muscle can actually assist you in staving off disease and quite possibly even save your life.

To find an Inform Fitness location nearest you visit www.InformFitness.com.

To purchase Adam Zickerman’s book, Power of 10: The Once-a-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution click this link to visit Amazon: http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

41 Strength Care Is Health Care Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS

podcast, muscle, strength, fitness, inform, cardio, dad, week, life, people, valve, cardiovascular system, sheila, mike, strong, wrightson, stent, strength training, location, heart attack

SPEAKERS

Sheila, Tim Edwards, Mike, Adam

Sheila 00:05

Strength is health. It's just the truth. And with the whole thing going on with the health care system, you have to take your health into your own hands and this is something you can do for yourself. That's going to be such great benefit as you age. And it's not like taking over your life. You know, it's just like brushing your teeth, which Adam you know, has referred to before. And I'm always telling people this strength care we call it strength care.

Tim Edwards 00:40

Episode 41 of the inform fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman and Friends welcome inform nation. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting network. Joining us across town at her place is Sheila Melody, the co owner of the Toluca Lake Burbank location of Inform fitness. Hello, Sheila.

Sheila 00:56

Hey, how's it going?

Tim Edwards 00:57

And of course, across the country, we've got Adam Zickerman, the founder of inform fitness with his general manager of the Manhattan location, Mike Rogers. So the four of us back together again. And before we jump into Episode 41, Adam, we received an interesting Facebook share from our last episode.

Adam 01:14

Yeah, this is cool. I really like this, I got excited about this. It says here, an excellent podcast by the guys that inform Fitness on why functional training is dangerous. What's great about this episode to me is that it makes clear that life is already fraught with danger, that every day every week, and every month, we are putting our bodies especially our joints and soft tissue in precarious positions. So by doing functional, quote, unquote movements in the gym, we are adding to the stress and risk not preventing it. Inside the gym, you want to be moving in the safest and most biomechanically correct way so that you can strengthen your muscles without further stressing your soft tissue. I've read and studied many great things over the years on the subject, but this 20 minute podcast is perfect for the average person who just wants to be healthy, doesn't want to injure themselves, and doesn't have the time and interest in all the underlying science.

Tim Edwards 02:07

That's great. We appreciate whomever did share that. And of course, we invite inform nation to, you know, follow us on Facebook go to inform fitness in your Facebook search bar, it'll come right up and you'll see a lot of great informative and entertaining posts in addition to every podcast episode

Adam 02:23

can I mention who's who sent this?

Tim Edwards 02:25

Of course Yeah, for sure.

Adam 02:25

I don't know the person's name. I guess I can figure it out. Oh, just the it's a Facebook post. who shared our podcast It's exercise dose, exercise dose on Facebook,

Sheila 02:40

is it a blog or another facility

Adam 02:43

he's uh, looks like he's a trainer in Tennessee or gym in Tennessee, in the Tennessee area.

Tim Edwards 02:49

Exercise dose, thanks so much for the share, we appreciate that.

Adam 02:52

Based on some of the friends that I see that we share, he's definitely involved in the high intensity world, I can tell. So he's been doing that he's a high intensity trainer or gym owner. And he's been listening to the podcast. So I appreciate that exercise dose, whoever you are

Tim Edwards 03:07

got them on their Facebook page. Now it said their banner says if it doesn't challenge you, it doesn't change you. And we certainly subscribe to that. So appreciate the share there. Yeah, matter of fact, I'm looking at it right now. He shared it on his page or her page so much appreciate it. Team, how you been? It's been a few weeks since we've all been together here in summer Sheila, what you've been doing with your time?

Sheila 03:28

Well, as I was mentioning on our last podcast, I am in the midst of starting my own path with a nutritionist. And it's been four weeks. And it's been a journey. And you know, I can talk more about it. But on another podcast. It's it's definitely a journey. And I'm excited about it and already making some progress. So good news.

Tim Edwards 03:52

congrats. Looking forward to hearing more about that. And I know that Mike, we spoke the last time we were all together. Your dad was having some issues can ask how your father's doing?

Mike 04:00

Yeah, I'm glad you asked. Because it's part of why I want to discuss on this podcast today. It kind of echoes some of the things that we've talked about in the past in regards to cardio, and but I let me just give everyone a little bit of backstory about what's going on. Most of my dad, he's about to be 78 years old. He's had a tremendous amount of health issues throughout his life. He's actually had a triple bypass. He's had a FEM pop bypass. He's had diabetes, diabetic ulcers. He's had an aortic aneurysm. Recently, he has three heart attacks. I mean, this guy's the Iron Man. I mean, 30 years of alcoholism. 20 years of smoking, hip replacements, knee replacements. I mean, I hope he lives forever, but he kind of should have, you know, left us about 20 years ago. He keeps fighting and and he's actually not the Iron Man. He's actually his name is Steve Rogers so you could say he had, he's Captain America. But anyway, um, you know, today I spoke with him and you know, he's he's okay, he's relatively stable, but there's some, there's some issues at hand and, and it in some ways, it took a few beliefs that I have already had that we already know about. But it put it into super mega high def technicolour about the importance of strength training with supporting your body, and when it's under a tremendous amount of stress and when it needs when it needs its muscle. And sometimes I think we forget about the relationship between muscle and how it supports the rest of our body. So most recently, I'm not going to go into every detail, but he had a his third heart attack recently was a mild one, right after he had surgery for a an aortic aneurysm. And he needs a stent, he had a heart attack, he needs a stent, and he needs a valve replacement. And, you know, I was talking to the doctors about what the process is, and the plan was, we want to give him the stent, and then he needs to go to a rehab center and get strong for a few weeks. And then we'll do the valve. And there were complications with the stent, that caused internal bleeding and all sorts of other stuff. And eventually, they contained that. But they he didn't my dad didn't even have the strength for them to do a colonoscopy or, or an endoscopy to actually examine why he was having internal bleeding, through his GI tract and and while I was talking to the doctor, and I was asking him, how much strength does he need? And he said, they said, Well, he needs to, you know, he needs to be able to walk, he needs to be able to do some lifting. He has he actually has, he has very little muscle at the moment. And, and I was just thinking, and so he really after a couple weeks of therapy after he can get out of here, he's, he's gonna be okay for the valve and all this stuff. And he said, he said, Yeah, generally, that's, that's what's necessary. And it just made me think about how important it is. I mean, we forget about how much muscle supports all these systems of our body, we know that it supports our skeletal system. And, you know, obviously, it helps us with people with degenerative bone diseases, osteo arthritis and stuff like that. But they were alluding to the fact that his body needs to have the muscle and the strength in order to just do a colonoscopy, or to just do this, you know, to do the valve replacement. And this he his, his cardiovascular system isn't working efficiently right now. You know, and, and what it what it makes me think about I was talking to all my clients, when I was getting the news from the doctor is about what how necessary, it is for us to remain strong in case we need some of these procedures. I mean, it's and it's not even that much. You know, it's what's amazing is he said a few weeks of you know, doing some, some, you know, Step is standing up and sitting down and taking some walks and stuff like that

Adam 08:01

so think about that, if that's gonna make him strong enough to have basically open heart surgery, well it's not open heart, but it's still still major surgery to put a valve in. But believe it or not, they don't have to use open heart anymore to put a valve and that's a whole he

Mike 08:14

would never survive that

Adam 08:15

Yeah. But the thing is this, so So when people question once a week, you know, when you hear all these guys are nitpicking about bodybuilding, and how you're going to peak your biceps if you don't work on more than once a week, and you got to do multiple reps and multiple volume and all this kind of stuff. You know, all right, that's all well and good. You want to nitpick at these highest highest highest levels for genetically, you know, gifted people. But from a health point of view, from a health point of view, just maintaining our health while we were actually just talking about in the last podcast with our guest Annie Wrightson, you know, when she said strength is health, and it doesn't take much of course, once a week, if walking at a rehab for a couple of weeks, it's gonna prepare this guy for for you know, this guy, of course, I'm talking about this guy

Mike 08:56

Steve Rogers, Captain America

Adam 08:58

Mike's father, I mean, like, if it's gonna help somebody like that, you know, then imagine the benefits from from doing one high intensity workout a week for the rest of your life just to stay fit as a fiddle, so to speak.

Mike 09:11

Yeah, just a relative intensity for you know, older community and stuff like that. But it's really, it's unbelievable, how it's, it's it goes to the muscle and how muscle supports all of this stuff. You know, and it's, it's, I mean, and the thing is, like I said, In the beginning, is that this is we're going back to cardio here. You know, Mike, we're talking about my dad's cardiovascular system, what's the cardiovascular there the heart is there to pump blood

Adam 09:39

everything has to happen, he has to get stronger, he has to get some muscle Yeah he doesn't need cardiovascular system, he needs muscle

Mike 09:45

That's that's essentially what they're talking about. And that's, that's basically what I wanted to mention. Is that is it. I think it really really it drives home strength training and cardiovascular health.

Adam 09:59

It's really intensity right? Right. So thing is this he's very weak. So his strength training for his dad is walking on a treadmill because of how intense that experiences. So it's not the tool, it's not that it's a treadmill, you know, he, he's weak, and even walking on a treadmill is a lot of work for him. But then you take it to the next level. Yeah, but but but the reason it's hard for him on a treadmill, because His muscles are weak. And if he gets better the treadmill is because his muscles are getting stronger.

Mike 10:26

Yeah, it's you know, it's it's walk to jog jog, to run, run to sprint, I mean, like you it's a progression, he has to start at a very, very low place. And we have plenty of you know, clients in here who come from a very, very low conditioned place, and we have to start low. And then they they, you know,

Adam 10:45

his father would be just as well off doing very light weights on a leg press and doing a full body workout with weights just as much. I mean, it'd be very hard for him to do superduper lightweights, but because it's on a treadmill doesn't mean it's cardio. Because what we've been talking about for a lot of episodes, it's intensity that pushes up energy energy systems, it's the intensity that makes us stronger, that stimulates us to get stronger.

Mike 11:06

And basically it's it's the fact that strength is cardio. It's not that it's uh, we're not fighting, or it is it is cardio. And that's the thing is like, and, you know, you know, when people come in, and they say, is this cardio, and I'm like, Well, do you understand what cardio is? You know, what cardio refers to your heart and what's your hearts function, it needs to do something, and my dad, his isn't doing it efficiently, he essentially has heart failure until the valve is put in and there's, you know, we're they're still doing a little touch and go type of things to to, essentially, we're trying to get them out of the hospital, so we can go to the rehab center. But at the moment, he doesn't even have that much strength. He's stable. And we're all very optimistic, just about Yeah,

Adam 11:49

I know his dad and the good news about his dad is that he's a very optimistic guy

Sheila 11:54

that says a lot

Adam 11:55

maybe maybe a bit of a fatalist. But he's definitely a an optimistic, happy go lucky kind of guy.

Mike 12:01

Yeah, yeah.

Adam 12:02

So I think that, you know, he's gonna go with the flow, I hope

Mike 12:05

that's the thing, he kind of goes with the flow. And we're just, you know, we're just surrounding him with love and encouragement, and we're trying to show up and, you know, keep them stimulated. And, you know, it's been a little frustrating. I mean, it's been extremely frustrating and very hard on my mom to, you know, we're all trying to go and visit and stuff like that, but the like, but I thought it was worth mentioning on a podcast, you know, because we all have, if we're not, we're not, you know, going into 60s and 70s. We're our parents, our grandparents are. And I think we seeing it firsthand really, really drives home how important it is to just be maintaining our muscle,

Tim Edwards 12:40

it does, it really puts in perspective, too. And you know, we spent a lot of time talking to various clients throughout the past 40 episodes, like you mentioned, and when we spoke with annie Wrightson last week, she's 67 years old, and we're talking about how this, you know, for 15 years, she's been working at it inform fitness and has been able to maintain her life and be functional, because she's been doing the strength training, never really thought about what you brought up, Mike, and I'm so glad that you did. And gives that perspective, it's not just about being functional, looking good. It's about survival, too. When it comes down to it, there

Sheila 13:11

We have to tell people that all the time I'm actually we just put an ad in a new local magazine. And that's exactly what the headline says His strength is health. That's what we're advertising as because it's, it's just the truth. And with the whole thing going on with the health care system, you have to take your health into your own hands, and this is something you can do for yourself. That's going to be such great benefit as you age. And it's not like taking over your life. You know, it's just like brushing your teeth, which Adam, you know, has referred to before. And I'm always telling people this strength care, we call it strength care. So, yeah, yeah, strength care.

Adam 13:56

Yeah, I'm on board, I'm gonna be using that strength care.

Tim Edwards 13:59

Strength care. Well Mike certainly, our thoughts are with your family and your father. And like you said a minute ago, you know, he's, he's positive, right. So just a little bit of positivity.

Mike 14:12

So we just gotta we got to get through one stage. And then once he's, he's focused on his rehab and just basically building some muscle, it's going to be have to be supervised at first, but, you know, we think he's gonna, you know, make it through and frankly, the doctor said that they've seen people in much worse condition get through all this. So, you know, what we don't, you know, we just got to go with the flow and we just gotta hope for the best and that's the way it is, you know, and like I said, the guy has been through every health problem, already, he's already dealt with bypasses and heart attacks and cancer and everything. It's like, I mean, we're already on his like, 11th life out of nine, you know?

Sheila 14:51

Like lately, you know, we're we're in the midst of the terrible floods in in Texas and in Houston, and I've seen some, you know, One video that I saw was these very elderly people being taken out of their home and the water was literally up to their chest and they could barely walk, you know, I mean, it can save your life when you get older to have that muscle. You know, if you're ever in a terrible situation like that a flood or a disaster or something, you know, think about that, getting yourself out of this thing. You know,

Mike 15:27

it's not, I mean, that's a, you know, relevant to what's going on. But I'd say I'd say can I think I'm saying it's going to save your life or prolong it in a way to where you're, you know, you can stave off disease and sickness and God forbid you, you have to go to the hospital and have a surgery. If you're strong. You're out fast. I'm telling you right now, my dad was stronger, he would have this would have been done already, you know, and it's like, and the cardiologists are pretty much that's exactly what they're alluding to. So that's it.

Sheila 15:56

Well, good luck to your dad, we'll be thinking about it

Mike 15:59

Thank you.

Tim Edwards 16:02

Strength care is healthcare. One of our new mantras here at the inform fitness podcast, join the movement get strong, and not just to look good, but for a myriad of health benefits as we have so intricately discussed in all of our past episodes. Hey, if you haven't yet subscribed to the podcast, please do so that way. Just about every Monday morning, you will find our latest episode waiting for you on your phone. Then you can listen to it on your way to work while you walk the dog or whatever you might be doing while you listen to your podcast. And hey, if you have some suggestions for topics that you'd like for us to cover, or even authors you think might be a good fit for the show. Send them on over to podcast at informfitness.com. And you know, what we would really love is if you recorded a voice memo on your phone with your comments and questions, and send that to us as well. And we can include your comments and questions in an upcoming episode. Perhaps you're new to the podcast and just discovered us in iTunes, Stitcher, radio or I Heart Radio, and still trying to figure out this protocol which at first glance is a very different kind of exercise. A good place to start learning about it is by clicking on over to informfitness.com The website has a ton of videos and blog posts and a list of all the locations scattered across the US then head on over to Amazon to pick up Adams book power of 10 the once a week slow motion fitness revolution. The book itself is only about 13 bucks and you can download the Kindle version for less than $8. So what are you waiting for? Inside the book you'll find nutritional tips and exercises that can be performed anywhere, even if you're not near an inform fitness location. Thanks so much for listening and until next week for Adam Mike and Sheila with inform fitness. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting Network.

View Details

Is it possible to actually be stronger in your 60’s than you were in your 30’s? It is if you ask Broadway theatrical lighting designer, Ann Wrightson!

Ann has been an InForm Fitness client for 15 years and is stronger than ever. Did we mention that Ann has been nominated for a Tony Award? For her impressive resume and examples of her lighting designs visit https://www.annwrightson.com

To find an Inform Fitness location nearest you visit www.InformFitness.com.

To purchase Adam Zickerman’s book, Power of 10: The Once-a-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution click this link to visit Amazon: http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

40 Being Stronger In Your 60's Than In Your 30's Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS

annie, eat, plateaus, strong, strength training, week, lost, podcast, wrightson, inform, strength, years, workout, fitness, weight, pilates, find, patience, pounds, plateau

SPEAKERS

Sheila, Ann Wrightson, Mike, Adam, Tim Edwards

Ann Wrightson 00:05

I think I've always liked feeling strong. My work is very sedentary. When you are working in theater you sit and you sit literally 8 10 hours a day, you get up you take a break when there's an equity break, otherwise you're sitting. So outside of that I liked being active and I liked being strong. And I also noticed over time, the stronger I was the healthier I was.

Tim Edwards 00:31

Inform nation Welcome to the inform fitness podcast, with Adam Zickerman and friends. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting network. And this is episode 40 of the inform fitness podcast. Am I the only one clapping never made it before? Yes,

Adam 00:52

you are excited though. I'm holding coffee again. I am really excited about this and no but no better person than have Annie Wrightson with us on our 40th time. She's a long term client with a tremendous success story we know are long I forget how long but she will tell you

Ann Wrightson 01:15

Yeah, 15 years, 2002

Mike 01:20

she's been here for 15 years has an incredible story. And that's why I wanted her to be a guest on the podcast. She's a theatrical lighting designer, and she works all across the country and even in in Europe and Australia occasionally, and but she is most known for she did the lights for August Osage County on Broadway, Tony nominated where on August she was nominated for a Tony Award for design and got us fourth row tickets. It was a phenomenal play, man. Oh,

Adam 01:52

cool. Yeah, I know somebody who is

Sheila 01:57

a true artist actually.

Mike 02:03

It was it was a fantastic and she's so talented. And I've seen lots of her. She showed me a lot of the photographs of some of her work over the years too. And so it's a pleasure to have her here.

Tim Edwards 02:12

Annie, will you share with us some of the of the other productions that you've had a hand in,

Ann Wrightson 02:16

let me think recently, I did a show at Steppenwolf called here. I'm about to go to Steppenwolf in Chicago and do another show called the Rembrandt. Most of my work is outside of New York and around the country. I work in Portland, Cleveland, Atlanta, Hartford everywhere. It's not always easy to have a steady kind of diet of New York theater. So you work everywhere.

Sheila 02:45

Have you ever worked in LA Annie?

Ann Wrightson 02:47

I have I actually did another Broadway show called souvenir. Which went to the Playhouse in Brentwood. Oh, okay. Um, in 2006 I think it might have been, um, but LA doesn't have a huge theatre community. So it's

Adam 03:09

oddly enough

Ann Wrightson 03:10

Yeah. So its a little harder

Sheila 03:12

It's not New York and Chicago.

Ann Wrightson 03:14

Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah, it is.

Mike 03:17

Well, Annie, what made you walk in our door back in 2002.

Ann Wrightson 03:23

Um, I was training I have been training myself and with at home trainers for a long time when I was 32. I think I took up weightlifting, free weightlifting on my own. And then then I graduated to have a trainer come to the house. So this was a person who came to the house, Laurie Jackson. And she then started coming here to train here and become a teacher. And she thought this protocol was suited for me, I have scoliosis. So I have issues of being able to get like both hands down on the floor behind me. And I, she was concerned over time that I was losing a lot of flexibility and mobility. So she thought this would help that. And over the course of 15 years, that certainly has

Mike 04:19

this method, this low weight training.

Ann Wrightson 04:20

Yeah. Just for strength and I think for especially for strength. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Mike 04:27

So want to just let everyone know, annie is 67. And she looks a lot younger than 67.

Sheila 04:34

No, yes.

Mike 04:35

She is. You know, she is a force to be reckoned with.

Sheila 04:39

amazing,

Mike 04:40

you know, incredible performance when she's working out so so what do you think is made you stayed here? Stay here for so long. I'm like What about the workout is really have you been able to stick with

Ann Wrightson 04:52

um, I think I've always liked feeling strong. My work is very sedentary when you are are working in theater, you sit and you sit literally 8 10 hours a day, you get up, you take a break when there's an equity break, otherwise you're sitting. Um, so outside of that I liked being active and I liked being strong. And I also noticed over time, the stronger I was, the healthier I was, um, because sometimes, especially in during technical rehearsals when you're working really long hours in, you're in a cold theater and you're putting stuff up. I know so many designers, especially lighting designers who get sick every single time they do a tech rehearsal. And I don't, I really don't. So I work kind of hard over time to not get sick while I work

Mike 05:51

monitoring your health and be as strong as you think that that was the reason why

Ann Wrightson 05:55

it's part of it Yeah, yeah, sure.

Mike 05:57

Um, how do you think being strong has helped you in your personal life and professional life beyond what you just said?

Ann Wrightson 06:05

Well, I also, I have a family history of arthritis. I had a hip replacement, um, eight years ago. So part of it was also just staying strong on both sides of my body so that I don't impact the other good hip, I have the only other good hip I have. And so far, I do have arthritis in it, but I have no pain at all. So I think in 2009, I got a hip replacement, and then I started to do Pilates. I, my right hip had not been replaced yet. And I was so and I was fairly hobbled on the right side, but I started Pilates. The doctor, the orthopedist said stay strong. So I thought, well, I need to stay strong in a way that's kind of controlled and and focused. So besides still lifting, doing strength training here, I added Pilates. And I've done Pilates since. So I do I do a mix of walking, jogging a couple of days a week, pilates, couple days a week and strength training once a week, or sometimes twice a week.

Sheila 07:15

That sounds like exactly what I've been doing. I love Pilates. I just added it myself. I love the great act. It's a great in conjunction with the strength training,

Ann Wrightson 07:26

Yeah, it really is.

Tim Edwards 07:28

When you're on the road, how do you factor this workout into your schedule while you're touring or traveling?

Ann Wrightson 07:36

On the road, I do not do strength training. Sometimes I will find a Pilates studio, but my time is really short arms. And I am an early morning person. So I tend to get up at five 530. And I will walk and I will generally walk outside is where is my favorite. So I will walk in almost any city and any most cities have either nice greenways or, or bicycle paths or canal paths that I can find a walk outside in the wintertime harder and harder to do. So I try to find a gym as my least favorite thing to do. But at least I can do it on a treadmill. So I keep that up for the two weeks. I'm on the road.

Adam 08:23

I heard you calculate how many of these strength training workouts you do in a year here. How many were they again?

Mike 08:29

Well, I was looking before we've been monitoring with our with our system back then it goes back to about 2005. And she's done 330 sessions between 2005 and 2008. That averages out just under 28 per year. So and that's kind of makes sense.

Adam 08:45

28 a year

Mike 08:45

a little bit more than half the year?

Ann Wrightson 08:47

Yeah.

Adam 08:48

so do you feel you've gotten weaker in the last? Since you've been coming here?

Ann Wrightson 08:52

weaker?

Adam 08:52

Yeah,

Ann Wrightson 08:53

Adam 08:54

Alright. So think about that. She's been only working out 26 times a year strength training, and she does not feel weaker. So I guess it's working enough.

Mike 09:00

Oh, you know, what's interesting is the other thing she's doing we were before, like, I mean, really any is 67 looks phenomenal, and is very, very strong. I mean, I would put her in the top, like 1% of anybody is in her age range of over 60. I'm just gonna go down to 60 and above, and even way below that. But what's interesting is when we were talking about that before any you were comparing yourself to your like your 35 year old self,

Ann Wrightson 09:28

right. And I actually think I'm stronger than I was when I was 30.

Mike 09:33

That is a testimonial. You know,

Ann Wrightson 09:36

I actually do, but I also think because of Pilates. It's just that I feel stronger from like head to toe. Instead of just because when I started when I was 32 I started free weights and I did free weights. I kind of got a book, I figured out a routine. I did ABS I did arms, I did legs, but I think over time because this is a much more kind of complete workout, strength training and Pilates also adds to that. So I just feel like my, the strength of my body is much more cohesive, and and much more complete than than it felt at 35.

Mike 10:15

With regards to when you were doing free weights, did you feel? I mean, would the way you were doing them? Did you feel it was unsafe the way you did or you felt like it was? Okay. Um, and then comparing it to the setting you're in now?

Ann Wrightson 10:29

Probably was, I would say it probably was on unsafe. I mean, I had a weight bench. I monitored myself. I did my own routines. I probably did them too fast. But I did them and I and I did them religiously. And I liked them a lot. But oh, I would say they probably were unsafe. I never hurt myself doing them. But I think I was lucky.

Adam 10:56

And it seems like you never felt like you were putting yourself in harm's way

Ann Wrightson 10:58

Yeah. Not certainly consciously not consciously.

Adam 11:02

Chances are you probably well, you how intense was the workout? How hard were you pushing yourself?

Ann Wrightson 11:06

Well, I don't That's a good question. I would do like three sets of, you know, 10 reps, I would do the one that I thought probably was the one I could have hurt myself on was Roman chairs. I would put a weight on my chest, took my feet under my couch. And I would like go all the way back and up on a bench. And I would do that extension. Yeah. And I would do I love those. But yeah, I so don't think that was safe.

Mike 11:35

Well, that'd be there's a lot of people who do a lot of things that they actually really enjoy until it hurts you

Ann Wrightson 11:40

Yeah, exactly.

Mike 11:41

What's really remarkable, though, over the last few years are some of the changes you've had with your weight. And the focus the that we've really put into that as obviously, you've gotten stronger, and you've felt stronger over the years. And then so what happened a few years ago, what did you What were you thinking about? And why did you

Ann Wrightson 12:01

Well, I noticed when I was around 63, 64 That it was harder and harder to take off holiday weight. From Thanksgiving, Christmas, I usually put on five pounds, usually five to seven pounds. And previously, I could take it off pretty well. But it's still weight loss for me is always slow and kind of methodical, like one pound a week, sometimes a little less than that. But I noticed around 63, 64 I couldn't get it off at all, it was taking me months to take off two pounds. And so again, my friend Laurie had found a nutritionist that she liked a lot who and I encountered other nutritionists that I was never very impressed with. But Laurie really liked this person. So I signed on to with Lisa Jublee. And I changed entirely what I ate, went to organic went because I have arthritis in my hands. And I treat it with a lot of remedies and a lot of not medication but remedies. Um, I went gluten free and dairy free and ate mostly a high fat high protein low carb diet. And I did it for Well, I still do it. But over the course of a year I lost 15 pounds. So I went from about 145 down to 130, 131

Mike 13:38

with the same exercise regimen with the same pilates once or twice a week.

Ann Wrightson 13:43

Yeah

Mike 13:43

walking that like a little intermittent jog type of thing.

Ann Wrightson 13:46

Yeah. I plateaued at around 135. And I had a really, really hard time getting below that. So Lisa suggested I do inform fitness twice a week, because that kind of training kind of ramps up your metabolism and the ability to burn fat more efficiently.

Mike 14:06

I think for you that something finding out that dosage, you know, we advocate it once a week or twice a week, it depends on the person and their health and how intense they can actually the intensity they can tolerate and a lot of different variables but and it's you know, people ask us all the time, which, you know, should I come once a week? Or should I come twice a week and sometimes we don't really know because some people they get the results you're talking about doing it once a week. And you know what's interesting one of the things I want to just make sure it gets mentioned is what I admire about annie is she is so focused and she's very patient with what I refer to as the troubleshooting process, you know, figuring out like what's, what is the the the way to to your results because it actually isn't the exact same frequency or the same exact nutrient intake per person and

Adam 14:59

not only that, but it changes for you. It changes you for yourself.

Mike 15:03

Right. And it changes possibly in times in your life exactly as, but what I think a lot of people, they throw their arms up in the air, they may get results for a week or two weeks, and then all of a sudden, wait a second, it plateaus, and then it stops. And then they throw their arms up in the air and give up on the process of which may involve a lot of different things. We talked about Adams over the last few podcasts as well, which he's, you know, made tremendous gains, but it's a process. Yeah, but it is. And that's the thing, I just wanted to like, I think it's amazing how, you know, we've figured out, like a two times was actually appropriate for you.

Ann Wrightson 15:38

yeah

Adam 15:39

it's a really excellent point. I mean, I can't tell you that that is the secret to success. And the word is patience. And one word is patience, and being willing to try something and stick it out. Because you don't know if something works if you just do it for a week. You mean this is something that takes time. And, and realism, patience and realism of the two things mean, understanding what a pound is, you know, and that just because you lost a pound in two weeks, and you're frustrated by that, so you lost a pound every two weeks. For a year. Yeah. All right. You know, you're talking you lost 25 pounds. That's, that's major.

Ann Wrightson 16:21

Yeah

Adam 16:21

that's major. Yeah, you know, consistently and the thing is, it might take some time to find what works for you. And, again, patience,

Sheila 16:31

and what you said before, and it changes in the different phases of your life, what goes on in your 30s or 40s, all of a sudden, you're like, it doesn't work anymore.

Adam 16:41

And be observant enough and patient again enough to and willing to make certain changes and tried certain changes. And it's a testament to you Annie because like you know, we can we can give you all the information all the guidance in the world but but for you to have the patience and to actually do it is we don't see it very often. We don't see it enough.

Ann Wrightson 17:00

And it really worked. The it was the it was the the silver bullet for me that literally got me past 135 and down to like 130 it took it took a while. But as they've said, I'm I'm willing to be patient about it. And I noticed I also noticed doing this twice a week, I strength ramped up that I noticed I could notice I just noticed, you know, because I do other exercises at home. And I just noticed, just the ability to do them changed. definitely changed.

Sheila 17:36

And how many days in between your two routines Do you have?

Ann Wrightson 17:40

Oh, I we usually would do Thursday, Monday, Thursday. Yeah, Tuesday. And I changed. I changed up my Pilates routine so that I wasn't back to back because I have a hard time and fine. Back to Back exercising coming here is is gets pretty hard to do.

Mike 17:58

You know, another thing that is breaking through that plateau for you is interesting and and intermittent fasting was an element to it,

Ann Wrightson 18:11

and i still basically do intermittent fasting I. So I eat for about eight hours out of 24. So I basically do not eat breakfast. I get up early. I'm a 5am riser. So I eat lunch at 11 or 1130 because I'm hungry by then. But I'll have almonds, maybe if I need to kind of have something at like 830 or nine and then I'll eat lunch at 11 and dinner at around seven. And basically that's about it.

Mike 18:46

That's seven days a week or, or like five days a week.

Ann Wrightson 18:51

Oh, probably probably six to seven, six to seven days a week. Sometimes on the weekend. I'm a little looser, and I eat breakfast because my husband's home and we're a little less intense about getting up and out of the house all he breakfast at like, I'll eat breakfast. Otherwise I don't.

Adam 19:11

socially. How do you work in eating like that on a social basis? Do you find it difficult? Do you find are you being judged or you just don't socialize?

Ann Wrightson 19:19

Well, I do socialize. I do. I mean there are days where I just like I just went out this past weekend and we went to this place called the meatball shop and I ate meet balls and I had

Mike 19:33

Annie's a New Yorker you better believe she socializes

Ann Wrightson 19:37

and I and I had an ice cream sandwich and which is two huge cookies and a huge scoop ice cream and I thought I can do this. I mean I do very often but I definitely like I love food so it's nice to have a good time with it. I do find when I'm on the road working I'm really strict about eating Then, and I make my own food, I take my own lunch. And I'm really I don't socialize so much when I'm on the road, because then you tend that you sit for eight hours you then you know, if you've got a bag of pretzels there, that's what you eat. And I don't I take you know, carrot chips or I take something I take nuts and I and I take my lunch and put it in the fridge and so I'm really careful about that

Mike 20:30

was it? Was it difficult initially to make those transitions like getting rid of all those, like inflammatory foods and stuff when when Lisa sort of guided you

Ann Wrightson 20:41

No, I literally switched gears like overnight over the course of a weekend. I literally just looked at what I needed to shop I shopped it. I stopped I I rearranged it. I keep I do keep a food diary on my fitness pal. I still

Adam 20:59

just like a Gretchen Rubin dream. Right? Like, what does that make her? Like? You know, according to her

Sheila 21:06

She's an upholder

Adam 21:11

told what she had to do. And she just did it

Ann Wrightson 21:13

or an obliger Yeah, yeah. And it doesn't. And I find now that I've done it for so long. If I if I like blow it out and eat a lot of carbs, like a few days in a row. I just, I can't do it. I get I don't I it's not comfortable. I can't comfortably do that very often.

Mike 21:32

I mean, it's so you're in a pattern where yeah, what serves your body and makes you feel good. And you know that having some indulgences from time to time, whether it's shopping ice cream treat? It's like, yeah, I have the treat.

Ann Wrightson 21:44

Yeah. Now I get back on the saddle

Adam 21:46

that's reasonable. Your body hardly notices it.

Mike 21:48

Yeah, your body hardly notices. Well, it will, it may notice it, but then you want to you want to quickly get back on the track. Yeah, you're on? Yeah, I think that's the license, I think you you have to earn. If you want those meatball shops and those ice cream sandwiches and those loose social engagements, you have to have a tremendous amount of discipline which you've established yourself. And it's, you know, like, going back to Gretchen Rubin, there's, you know, that was another thing, troubleshooting your own personality and how to actually get it. But the thing is one of the things I wanted to mention about I mean, people don't see any on the podcast, but any, you know, like, and this is, this is a female thing, what I've found watching women over 50 is having a lot of difficulty losing the weight in that midsection area, and Annie has done it. Like she has really, really significantly done what is a lot of people find to be impossible. And I think like setting that goal. And, you know, and working towards it is I think it's just worthy of just mentioning that it's attainable with if you're if you're ready to pursue you know, the trouble, let's say, let's say it's possible, because I don't know if it's attainable for everybody. It may not be

Adam 23:02

I mean, but it's definitely possible. If it doesn't happen if that particular thing, losing your little pouches, as I hear refer to a lot. If you if for some reason, because you had five kids and you can't lose a pouch was not lost. I mean, you're still eating a healthy lifestyle, and your health and your healthy. You know, the thing that annie said at the beginning of the broadcast, if you want to call it that is this, I realized that being stronger, was being healthier. And that that's a realization, that's a profound realization that her strength is what made her healthy. We often try to get fit. And many times that the exercise programs we choose to get fit actually do the opposite, then they undermine our health. And the fact that she said that being strong, avoiding sarcopenia, which is one of our early episodes we've done on this podcast, and all the problems that come from that, muscle loss and things like that. You know, it's a profound statement for somebody in our position that hasn't been trained in school and sarcopenia and all that, just to say that she realized that her strength was her health, especially and then and then doing in a safe way. So getting strong doesn't undermine your health. And I think that's an important point to make. And to kind of close with, although I do want to bring up one other thing that Mike brought up, which is not really about Annie and her success, but it's it's something that comes up and the word was used and that is plateau. Want to say something about plateaus for a second. It's only going to take me a minute. That is I think plateaus in some instances in many instances get a bad name as if it's a bad thing that I plateaued

Mike 24:48

and we were just talking about that

Adam 24:50

you were just talking about that? tell me what I say is actually what yeah, what what you were talking about. This is funny So it's kind of just an observation I make. I mean, the thing about plateaus is, if you come here, how long has it been any 15? Are you coming here 15 years, if you are realistically, or getting strong every single time you came in here, you'd be like Arnold Schwarzenegger by now. There's a limitation to how strong you can get. And the real thing about plateaus,

Mike 25:25

you'd be Captain America

Adam 25:26

and the analogy, when you're like a starving art artists, right. And you can have trouble paying the rent, every penny that you make counts, but when you're like a millionaire, and a gazillionaire, and you don't ever have to worry about making money ever again, and you make some more money on top of that. It's almost like who the hell cares? And the thing is this, when you're as strong as Annie has gotten, let's say

Mike 25:32

and has maintained

Adam 25:36

Well, that's the point I'm making about plateaus. I mean, let's say you are 200 300 400%, stronger than you were, like you said, you're stronger now than you were in your 30s. Okay? And you've been maintaining that into your 60s now. Alright, and you've been plateauing at this high level of strength for all this time. I'm thinking that's huge. That's great. That's plateaus, not bad. The fact that but and this is the other thing about plateaus. Also, though, doesn't mean you stop trying to get stronger. That's that's the beauty of this. You keep trying you keep trying to get stronger, you keep looking at your results, still exert patience. And you still tweak, you know, and it's really cool to really see if you can get it higher. Why not? You know, you're here. And it just reminds me and I don't want to set limitations either. Even though we know there are theoretical limitations that we all have. Who wants to set those limitations because it reminds me of when the four minute mile is broken, right? What's the guy's name Bannister? Was that the guy who broke the four minute mile? First one? Yeah. All right. So like before he broke it, the first guy to break and no one thought it could be done. As soon as Bannister broke it, all of a sudden, all these people started breaking it soon after, because the belief was there that it can be done. So I don't want to ever set limitations or you can get so strong, you're at your plateau. And I'm really want to talk about plateaus too much. Because that can be a self fulfilling prophecy that, you know, but at the same time, it's not a bad word, especially if you're like, 300% stronger than you were in your 30s?

Mike 27:21

Well, I think it's coupled with the expectation of where you would be if you did not do any strength training when you're 67 years old, right? Like, like, Where would she be?

Ann Wrightson 27:30

Where would I be talking about

Mike 27:32

like if you draw a line and say Annie Wrightson lifts 100 pounds when she's 30 years old, at whatever exercise and at 40 she lifts 100 And at 50 She lifts 100 and it's 60 She lifts 100 and at 70

Ann Wrightson 27:46

The thing is, that would be a good plateau

Mike 27:49

she'd be declining

Sheila 27:51

you're not losing strength

Mike 27:52

really is the increase is the delta between where the decline would be and where the plateau is. I don't know if people can understand that through a podcast, but that is Delta's change. Yeah. Okay. But that's, uh, and but that that percentage, which is below the plateau line between the plateau line and we're, you probably may have been lifting or if you didn't do any strength training, or what you possibly could have done if you weren't strength training. That's the big thing that we had so

Adam 28:18

alarming, because that's why that siren, yes.

Sheila 28:22

On the on the whole topic of plateauing, you can talk about that, as far as, you know, just getting older and people saying, Oh, forget it, I'm never gonna, you know, lose that belly fat, I'm never gonna look as good as I never gonna feel good again. And I'm kind of on that my own journey started with that, you know, in the last month, and I hired a nutritionist and so Annie, you are an inspiration to me. Because it's like, no, I'm going to look the best I can. At my age. I'm going to I'm going to do this, you know, I don't have to settle for Look, I'm just gonna have to deal with this. I'm going to just slowly gain more weight and you know, slowly have to buy more clothes. And, you know, anyway, I just wanted to say I'm very happy to meet you. And I think that you're an inspiration to women, especially. Thank you.

Ann Wrightson 29:15

Yeah, thank you so much

Adam 29:17

Bravos

Mike 29:18

Annie thank you very much for being with us today. We really appreciate it

Ann Wrightson 29:21

certainly.

Tim Edwards 29:23

much appreciation to 15 years inform fitness client and Tony Award nominee Ann Wrightson for sharing her health journey with us here on the inform fitness podcast. As Sheila mentioned, she is truly an inspiration and living testimony for this slow motion high intensity strength training protocol offered at seven inform fitness locations across the US. To find one near you click on over to informfitness.com The website is chock full of entertaining and educational blog posts written by Adam. You can also see what Adam Mike and Sheila actually look like in their trainer bios and the videos and we invite you to head on over to Amazon to pick up Adams book power of 10 the once a week slow motion fitness revolution. The book itself is only about 13 bucks, and you can download the Kindle version for less than eight. Inside the book you'll find nutritional tips and exercises that can be performed anywhere, even if you're not near an inform fitness location. Alright, so next week, Mike Rogers will be sharing a very personal story about resiliency. We'll discuss how this type of workout can not only keep you healthy in your golden years, but could possibly even save your life. Make sure you're with us for that one. Until then, for Adam, Mike and Sheila with inform fitness. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting Network.

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Episode 39 is inspired by the Functional Fitness Movement and for those who subscribe to the notion we should train and strengthen our bodies in ways that mimic the activities of our daily life. Adam Zickerman, Mike Rogers, and Sheila Melody discuss the dangers of participating in this form of exercise.
Joining the conversation is InForm FItness client and filmmaker David Carlson. David has produced several amazing videos for InForm Fitness: Intensity - www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0ca4DoWh8A Mobile Gym - www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHXsL635i8U Testimonials: www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9cXf1R68-8 www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL6OoBRtwko
Adam mentioned in this episode that our old friend from Episode 19, Bill DeSimone, has a series of videos regarding congruent exercise: www.youtube.com/user/CongruentExercise

39 The Dangers of Functional Training Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

workout, exercise, deltoid, people, lifting, inform, muscle, david, carrying, functional, joint, adam, heavy, movement, strengthen, fitness, talking, lever, weight, aware

SPEAKERS

Sheila, Tim Edwards, Mike, Adam, David

Adam 00:05

Because what people are doing in these functional training gyms is doing the things that you would do in your backyard carrying stones and weakening you and weakening a joint and compromising the joint in this very insidious way time after time workout after workout and then you go to actually do something like that in your backyard. And that's when the straw breaks. And you're thinking, Oh, I don't understand, I was preparing for this and now I get hurt. Or you get hurt in a gym before that even happens. Because the thing is when you're not doing things in a biomechanically correct way you're wearing away and you're weakening the joint and functional training is serving to to screw you up.

Sheila 00:50

Episode 39 of the inform fitness podcast with Adam Zickerman is about to begin, heyy inform nation. Thanks for joining us. I am Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting network and a client of inform fitness. Adam, Mike and Sheila will be with us in just a minute. And they'll be joined by a longtime inform fitness client, David Carlson. The discussion today is based off of a blog post written by Adam a few years back titled gyms have become dangerous playgrounds for grownups. The blog post stems from the functional fitness movement, and for those who subscribe to the notion that we should train and strengthen our bodies in ways that mimic the activities of our daily life. So what are the dangers of participating in this form of exercise? Well, you can read the blog post for yourself at informfitness.com. And we begin the discussion right now here on the inform fitness podcast.

Adam 01:44

Yes, so you know, we talk about we talk about theory a lot, and a lot of, you know, academic things from time to time, and it's always good to just come back to, you know, where the rubber meets the road and talk to people that have actually experiencing this and this type of workout. And when we have talked about functional training in the past, and how this, you know, my opinion is that you strength train to build muscle, and then you and you do that in the safest way possible according to muscle and joint function as best as you can. And not necessarily try to mimic everyday life in the gym, which is what a lot of functional trainers are doing doing things that you kind of do in everyday life and but in the gym, you're doing with weights or extra resistance. And I've always said that that's dangerous for the joints, and the way you incorporate your life, or the way the way exercise helps you in your life is by again, safely strengthen the muscles according to its as best you can, according to its its function, and not to try to get fancy. So I was reminded of this when I was talking to David, client, longtime client, David's here with me right now. Hello, David.

David 02:59

Hi. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

Sheila 03:01

Now. Now, Adam, before you bring David in as a longtime client, let's also let our audience know that David also has produced several videos for you over there on the East Coast.

Adam 03:12

Yes, David is very well aware of our workout. He's intimately aware because we he is producing videos with us. And he obviously he's getting a technical background and all this stuff, obviously in order to shoot it properly. So yeah, he's a client and he just keeps learning more and more about it. And we were having a conversation yesterday about how he was doing some work in his backyard, and all this kind of stuff. And it made me think exactly of the point we've been making all this time about separating everyday life activities, and not necessarily trying to mimic those activities in the gym. And David is pretty much living proof of how this works and is based on what he was telling me yesterday, that current prompted me to invite him here today with us. So David, tell us what you were talking about yesterday.

David 04:01

So I have this house in Pennsylvania. And it's really great because I think this I you know, I do yard work. The one thing that I keep on, I'm reminded all the time of how effective this workout is. So last week I was in in Pennsylvania and I was harvesting I don't know these big stones to make these paths stones on my property and they're probably like 50 65 pounds each. They're pretty heavy. And I know that you know I'm in pretty good shape because I've been doing this workout for probably about four and a half years. But still something like that. You know, it really it made me think like you got to be really careful about this because you're picking up a big piece of stone from the ground, you're lifting it up your back isn't you know, could be in real trouble. But of course because I do this work now I'm actually even more focused on these kinds of things when they come into my world. So, you know, I like held my stomach and I picked it up and I did this all day and it was like I could do it but it was really really they were really really difficult. At the end of the day when I had the stones laid out I thought to myself, you know I'm really lucky I do this work workout because If I had not done this workout, I think this whole day would have killed me, you know, just just laying out those stones. And the funny thing about it the end of the day, I was a little sore, because it was a little awkward, you know, the, the positions I were in was in a couple of times, and, and I felt it, but I didn't feel destroyed. And I thought to myself, Man, if I had done this, and I wasn't in this kind of shape, I would, I don't think I don't think I'd be in good shape. So came I told Adam about this, because I was super excited about it. Because I thought to myself, I have to do this workout. So you can do life. You know, that's the thing you never think about you think I've heard people talk about, oh, you can have this, like really active lifestyle, and you can, you know, like, you can, you know lift rocks and things, you'll be in great shape. No, that's gonna kill you. The only way you can do that is if you are in great shape first, and then you can do this work without killing it.

Adam 05:49

See what I was happy about hearing that. That's the kind of the thing that made the light bulb go off on my head, he figured it out. Usually, I have to kind of teach that that correlation, which usually people have reversed, he realized that you don't exercise that way to prepare for that which so many people do, which is what this whole functional create functional training craze is all about. Like you have people lifting tires, and carrying rocks across football fields and anvils, and sandbags, and swinging ropes and kettlebells. And all those things which do in some ways mimic things that you do in life, like David carrying boulders around his back yard to plant a garden and things like that. The misnomer is that you have to do those similar type of activities with weights and in the gym so he can prepare you for what he did in a back yard. And no, because what he was doing in a back yard ultimately, is not good for you. If he kept doing that over and over again, day after day, like a manual laborer does, he's going to have problems, you're gonna have physical problems, whereas working out with us, or in a way that's according to muscle and joint function, whether it's with us or not, right, it's just doing according to muscle and joint function is going to prepare you for when you do have to move a rock, that is not going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Because what people are doing in these functional training gyms is doing the things that you would do in your backyard carrying stones, and weakening you and weakening a joint and compromising the joint in this very insidious way time after time week workout after workout. And then you go to actually do something like that in your backyard. And that's when the straw breaks. And you're thinking, Oh, I don't understand I was preparing for this. And now I get hurt. Well you got hurt in a gym before that even happens. Because the thing is when you're not doing things in a biomechanically correct way you're wearing away and you're weakening the joint and functional training is serving to screw you up. So here, David was working out doing a very safe leg press doing the deltoids according to muscle joint function and resistance is that the right weight at the right time, not too heavy at the weak point not too late at the strong point, not screwing up the rotator cuff muscles not screwing up the joint itself and all the connective tissue of that joint. By doing things on long levers with a weight is way too heavy, and the stabilizer muscles have to carry way too much load than they were meant to. And then and by not doing that by just strengthening the muscle he was prepared to to lift boulders in his backyard, and there was no straw that broke the camel's back. So that's what really kind of was impressed upon me when he was talking.

Mike 08:27

basically the the point of this, I think is that life, the majority of our life is in fact outside of muscle and joint function. And, and when we try to incorporate some of those, those things into our exercise, you're an exercising on an exercise regimen is something that is repetitive, you know whether it's once a week or three times a week, or whatever people do, but to do certain things, like carry boulders, which we want to be able to do when we have to do them within our within means. But that is a it's a great, it's a great testimonial to come to that conclusion, because a lot of people don't really come to that. Even after we tell them over and over and over again.

Adam 09:12

Yeah, usually usually it's like, you know, how is this helping me with doing all my gardening? Right? Don't? Shouldn't I be doing things like I do in the back yard? And gardening? Shouldn't I be jumping off boxes? Because that's kind of what happens when you kind of run after a bus or something like that? Should I be doing those kinds of ballistic movements to repair me for the ballistic movements of life? And I'm like, No.

Mike 09:35

The thing is these now, these things do occur in in life. And I think when we know something that is that can be destructive or risky. And as we get older things become that way. We have to make sure we are very careful with what with which ones we decide to do at that time in our life. And I think you know, you thought you knew that you could probably do this. But as you said before, if you were doing this all the time, or as Adam said, if you did this had to do this as a job all the time, you probably would hurt yourself, even if you were very strong. Yeah, because you're making, in essence, an exercise if you're doing it all the time.

David 10:11

Sure. And I guarantee you that I probably wouldn't even try to have done it. If I had not been if I hadn't felt strong, I mean, one of the things I have to say about this workout always, it always makes me feel really strong. Like I just feel like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm a camera, man. So I'm carrying around gear all the time. The reason like, you know, the reason I, I maybe I got this is because I came to this workout, hoping to cure those kind of things. Like I remember, I couldn't carry gear, I was getting tired and, and then after about three months, I realized I started gaining the strength and then in my job became a lot easier. And then I started going like, Oh, holy hell, this is gonna, this is gonna bring back my life. You know? Let's see that window, I pull it down. As I pull it down. I go, Oh, my God, my core did that so easily.

Adam 10:54

Sheila reminds me of the story with Fitz Fitz, Patrick, the bass player for the Cult, right? Graham Fitzpatrick, the bass player for the Cult, and

Sheila 11:04

basically ruined his back was so bad that he couldn't even it was threatening his career, his his career playing bass on stage, you know, with traveling with bands and playing bass, he couldn't stand he couldn't walk around. His brother actually had a facility with this type of workout, this type of equipment, got him to get on the low back machine, which you're like, what? Why would you go on the low back machine when your back is in, you know, in bad shape. But his brother, knowing the benefits of this can, you know, convinced him to try it. And it was the thing that made him better and able to come back in his career and get back out on stage again. And so when he was traveling with the Cult, he would like every city, he would go to he would look for this equipment, that's how he found us in LA, by finding that we had this certain type of equipment. And, and he wanted that low back machine that was like his, that's his cure, you know, to come in and do that low back machine. And then when he's in New York key, he's called you guys several times and gone in there. And that's, he has to keep doing that in order to stay viable, you know, able to continue, because his back has, once you have a back thing. And it's been in that, you know, condition where it's, you're so scared, people are scared, Adam, you know, this whole, we have had that whole low back episode with you, Adam. And it's like, it's this the fear factor, so they don't move. But once you understand that the exercise is going to strengthen your back and make it better, then you're like, Okay, I got to keep doing this. One thing I wanted to just say about what Dave was saying that I thought was very important is that simply by doing this exercise, you become much more aware of safely doing things of safely lifting very heavy weights, you become much more aware of that perfect form. And then that That alone makes you much more aware when you're even moving a piece of furniture in your house or something like that.

Adam 13:21

it's true I'm sure David were like bending your knees properly.

David 13:24

yeah, even in New York, I mean, I find myself checking with checking in with myself as I'm walking upstairs. I'm feeling myself moving and mechanically in ways that are just sort of supporting me they're not there. You know, I'm careful. I'm careful because of this workout. I mean, it does come through in everyday life all the time.

Sheila 13:41

We actually had one new client, she was a younger girl, and she came in twice. And then she was she sent John her trainer, a text saying, I think I'm taller. I'm taller, could you measure me and and it was I was reading something about the benefits of when you start strength training. And part of that is that you're standing a little taller, because you're aware of your muscles,

David 14:08

I mean, I'm gonna jump on that because that that's been a huge change for me. So like, after I leave this place, I'm standing up in this very tall position. And walking around the tree. It's sort of like all of a sudden, my my musculature is holding my frame up. I just feel it like supporting me, it's sort of like this angel comes behind you and grabs your shoulders and sort of holds it up for you to show you like this is where you should be all your life.

Sheila 14:34

Right

David 14:34

and, and I've noticed that even like if I want to get that feeling back during the week, if I just put myself into like a, like a plank position for you know, until I almost go to failure. If I stand up, I'm brought up into the same position again, it lifts me up. So it's like, if I want that instant, instant fix, I just go to that and all of a sudden I feel like I'm like two inches taller. I do feel that.

Sheila 14:56

That's awesome.

David 14:57

Yeah, it was a very exciting thing. And so as you bring it up that's that's One very exciting thing that I've, I've actually passed on to other people I've told other people about, because I'm generally like, my whole life has been like this, you know, so,

Adam 15:07

you know, a functional training, the concept of functional training was so good. And it worked, then things like, graham Fitzpatrick, and carrying a heavy guitar on his shoulders all the time, would be strengthening his back, not hurting his back. It wasn't until he started dealing according to muscle and joint function to truly strengthen back the right way that made him feel better. But functional training is saying mimic the activities of life that you know, so you can handle it. So he's like, Okay, I'm just gonna carry this really heavy guitar on my shoulders. And that should solve my back problems, right? No, it's actually causing his back problems. Reminds me of the bar owner that I trained for the last I don't know, eight years. Kirk, if you're listening, hello. You know, Kirk owns bars, he's carrying kegs all the time. Up and down the stairs. He's big kegs, half of carrying a keg is technique. Have you ever seen one of those guys pulling it off a truck, but they're heavy those things right? He was not getting stronger lifting kegs all day. Alright, and those guys that are heaving those kegs up and down on trucks, they aren't they have a lot of problems. Alright, it wasn't until he started doing again his workout here that he was able to handle that kind of work. So if functional training was valid, wouldn't all those really tough work that you doing all day long, when that'd be making you stronger and healthier and not not making you decrepit and crooked, we just think about it for a second. It doesn't make sense the whole functional training movement as as they basically stole that term memory functional training came from rehabilitation, where you're injured, and you can't do some very basic things. And you just practice, not just from a strengthening point of view. But from an even neurological point of view, a tactile point of view, you got to learn how to do a function again

Mike 15:08

more like occupational therapy

Adam 16:45

occupational therapy, therapy, it's about getting back to a certain level and then going from there. But once you get back to being able to move that joint appropriately, then you got to strengthen after that

Mike 16:54

right and, and one other whether it's a movement pattern, like a like an a job, like moving a keg or picking up rocks, or a sports move, you learn technique to make it more efficient, if it's something that you do have to do on a regular basis, like you still have to move kegs, like an athlete still have to, you know, run across the field, jump up in the air, catch a ball or something like that. And the idea is you want to learn how to do that activity as efficiently. And with as much technical expertise, which, you know, we learn how to do and one part of that is how to do it without hurting yourself or to minimize risk, I should say, because oftentimes a lot of things like sports, for example, that require extreme ranges of motion, in order to do the actual sport, there is an expectation that you're going to, that you may actually hurt yourself in the process of doing. So

Adam 17:51

again, here we are, you just touched upon something, Mike, that that is something we've touched upon before. And it's definitely worth repeating, because it's a basic tenant of what we're talking about. And that is the difference between recreation and exercise. And sports is part of that recreation. And athletes just like the bartender or the bar owner, I should say. And just like the musician, you the athlete, is also putting themselves in compromising positions during his sport for his sport. And again, to train in those compromising positions, it's just going to be piling on and just adding to the propensity for risk of getting injured, what that athlete should be doing, instead of working in these extreme ranges of motion to try to mimic what's happening, let's say on a basketball court

Mike 18:36

while they're training

Adam 18:37

while the training I'm saying is to just strengthen the muscle appropriately according to muscle and joint functions, avoiding extremes, avoiding the excessive force that's going to wear insidiously, possibly wear and tear away at the joints and then they get hurt during the game. And it's hard to prove right? That what the cause was, but more than likely, it's all that plyometric quote unquote, functional training that they're trying to mimic. And really what they're doing, according to,

Sheila 19:08

you know, tearing it down, wearing everything down.

Adam 19:10

You know, to me exercising like that all the time is not exercise, it's manual labor. We all know manual laborers are not necessarily in the greatest health as, as they as age

David 19:21

actually have that that's the initial conversation we had about that was the difference between manual labor and can exercise I was thinking about that

Sheila 19:28

getting paid to have somebody do maybe we should change the whole idea of it and just people will pay so that they can exercise but then we will get work done at the same time.

Adam 19:42

Well, exactly, you know, so for all of you that are doing all these functional training workouts, the boot camps across fits, you know what, become become a construction worker and add some value to society at least. If you're gonna beat yourself up, be so pumped to have something come from it. As opposed to just beating yourself up and not having any value come from it.

David 20:05

learn a craft

Adam 20:05

or learn a craft, you still manual labor is up to you, you're actually accomplishing something.

Sheila 20:11

So Adam, I just wanted to go back to maybe give the listeners a little one on one in biomechanical movement. And you talked earlier, you just mentioned long levers. So could you just kind of explain, give an example of a long lever, and how that would hurt?

Adam 20:29

Well, your thing is, when you have a weight in your hand, for example, and you're lifting it, your arm is the lever, right? So and the thing about a lever does is it multiplies the weights that you're holding by the length of that lever. So if you're doing, let's say, side raises with a dumbbell to work your deltoids. So you're holding a dumbbell by your size, and you're just lifting your arms straight out from your sides with a with a locked out elbow, so it's a straight arm. Alright? Well, you have to keep in mind is and what you have to know is where the deltoid the muscle that you're working your shoulder muscle, where its strong point is, and where it's weak point is. And the weight should be heaviest at the strong point of the deltoid, and it should be lighter at the weak point, because if the weight is too heavy at the weak point of the deltoid, that's where other things need to hold up that weight. And those other things like connective tissue and rotator cuff muscles, stabilizer muscles, smaller stabilizer muscles, they can't handle all that extra weight. So it's important to match how the weight changes to a range of motion and make sure that it's changing in accordance to the strength levels of that muscle that it's working. So what's happening here, when you do a lateral raise like that, the deltoid is strongest when you start the movement when it's by your sides, that's where your deltoid is really strong. But that's also where the weight is not really being multiplied by a long lever, because it's not out yet. So it's the weight itself, multiplied by the small, maybe an inch that is away from your side. But then when you pull it away from your side, your deltoid is getting weaker. And that weight as it's going away from your body, the further it gets away from your body, you have to multiply that weight by that distance. And the further and further it gets away from your body that weight gets heavier and heavier. At the same time, as your arm is going away from your body, your deltoid, your shoulder muscles getting weaker and weaker. So the here you have what they call incongruency, where the weight is way too heavy at that point for the muscle, see what people might not understand that the muscle doesn't have the same strength through a range of motion, it's stronger at the beginning of the range of motion usually gets weaker at the end of the range of motion, and the weight has to vary accordingly. And if it doesn't, if it varies the wrong way, where it gets heavier, where the muscle gets weaker, that's when you run into problems. And that's what happens very often when we don't lift weights according to our muscle and joint function. And there's ways to fix that problem doesn't mean you can't do a lateral raise, you just shouldn't do a lateral raise standing straight up like that. If you lean your body to a 45 degree angle or lay on your side. And you do a lateral raise that way. Now you change everything. Now the way it is heaviest at the beginning of the deltoid, and where the delts can handle that heavyweight. And then as the weight comes up as if you're laying on your side, the distance shortens as the deltoid gets weaker, and now you have congruent exercise. So it's just a matter of knowing how to shift your body position sometimes to make an exercise from safe to unsafe or and vice versa.

Mike 23:38

That's I mean, Adam was just speaking in terms of exercise, but like going back to a practical life type of thing. Like what David was talking about moving rocks, like and talk to you about the lever that Adams talking about what David was, I guarantee I wasn't there, but I guarantee he wasn't he didn't have his arms extended way far away from his body carrying

Adam 23:57

he brought it closer to his body

Mike 23:58

he brought it closer body because that technique

Adam 24:01

you're not multiplying that boulder by the distance of your arm away from your body.

Mike 24:05

So the distance of His arm was shorter, because he held it closer, and therefore he could actually carry it. If he did it the other way, you would have made the lift much harder for himself and will likely hurt himself no matter how strong he is from this workout.

Adam 24:17

Exactly. So when you see a lot of these movements at boot camps and the CrossFit, you know, when you have medicine balls with outstretched arms twisting to the side, I mean, you're working your obliques minimally, but you're straining your lower back maximally. It's not even accomplishing and working the muscle that you're intending. And people don't realize that and you have these trainers that maybe most likely unintentionally, you're not even understanding of the forces that are involved in something like that. And that's the real danger of this functional training movement when you don't understand that there are going to be excessive forces on a muscle at the wrong time. So I have a little mantra where it's which you know, when I when I try to explain all this to my clients, as we go through the workout, it's, I always say the right resistance at the right time. And that's that that's important I point that out to them. And sometimes I'll even demonstrate doing a lateral raise and a standing position and then do the lateral raise in the side position. And they can feel the difference can feel how it straining a shoulder, you can feel how all of a sudden, when you'd make it do it the right way you feel it in the deltoid and not feel like your shoulder blade, or your collarbone is about to pop out of your out of its socket.

Mike 25:31

And the problem with, with what is not with what Adam is talking about, once again, the understanding of a lot of people when they exercise is that they associate being really, really sore with a great workout. And that's why sometimes, like doing extreme range of motion or incongruent exercise oftentimes makes people very sore, like, wow, that was a great workout. And then they go back to it, of course, and so that's the thing that we always want people to be very, very aware of when they're in if they're not doing what we're doing. Or if they're doing something similar to what we're doing. You have to be very aware of these types of things, no matter what type of program you're involved with. And that's something that we take very, very seriously. And we're very vigilant about.

Sheila 26:15

Right. And I think one of the classic things people do in that, you know, on that same line of speaking, is they reach too far forward, to pick something up, you know what I mean? Like they're reaching over, and then they pick it up, and then oh, God, it's too heavy, and your low back is strained. And you know what I mean, they're not like, centered in that, it just being aware, your whole body is the lever, they're like your arms outstretched and you're stretching over to pick something up, don't do it

Mike 26:51

comes back to the workout though. And I like the day it's going and it comes full circle to what Dave said in the beginning, was that his awareness for what he was doing when it was outside of muscle and joint function was much more conservative, he actually did things much safely in that world, because of the awareness he developed from this workout, which is what we do see that and then and this is a living proof of it right here.

David 27:15

Yeah, and when, you know, one of the great things about this place, I have to say that is, is always been about safety. So so I feel like here you get taken care of there, I mean, you can go any other place, and people will just lay on that line of advertising they've heard a million times before all over the place, then I've never seen any really results from but um, but here, you know, it's always been safety. It's always like, you take care of you, and then that starts getting pumped into you, you take care of yourself, you come here to take care of yourself. You know, it's great seeing you take that out with you.

Adam 27:49

I'm going to be producing some videos on this stuff and showing biomechanically correct exercises. So stay tuned for that. But in the meantime, until we start producing our videos, you know, I totally recommend that we interviewed Bill De Simone at one point. He has a whole host of videos, and he has a book called congruent exercise. He has several publications now on this subject. So if you want to get really specific and do exercises,

Mike 28:13

or reference our podcast too, remember we had a good interview with him,

Adam 28:16

we had an interview with him but I also recommend you going to Bill De Simone and looking up his his videos on all and you can see all types of exercise done properly and with explanations of why you're doing it this way and start engaging in some very effective but also safe ways of working these muscle groups and stay away from the idea of trying to mimic everyday activities including sports activities in the gym with weights and long levers now that you know what a lever does, alright, and do it save and like like we talked about with David you kind of intuitively understood that bring that keeps that way close to your body. And like you know, Sheila was just referencing about reaching out outstretched arms with heavy weights. You know, sometimes you just have to do that reminds me of myself when you know I had a reach you know you have kids and you have in the back seat and you're reaching behind you to grab something and, and I just remember you know, that's not good for your soul to reach only behind you with an outstretched arm and pick up this heavy backpack filled with who knows what you know, and you know, I wouldn't recommend people do that exercise. Except you have to do it in real life. And because I strengthen my shoulders and my neck and my arms in a safe way that every once in a while when I have to reach back in the backseat of the car and grab something heavy out of it. I can handle it. I don't want to do that on a regular basis, but I don't I didn't get hurt doing that and I could still get hurt doing that depending on how heavy the thing is. But that's how you prepare for everyday life by just making sure your shoulders are really strong so when you do have to reach behind the back seat and grab something heavy that you can handle it.

David 29:58

I have one more story I just want to share with you

Adam 29:59

And then we'll end with that because I think we don't want to beat a dead horse. But I think I think the point has been made, right?

Sheila 30:05

Yeah.

David 30:06

Well, so here this this thing happened. I never even shared this with anybody. But about a month ago, I was stepping up on the curb coming home from the supermarket. I had two bags with me. And I stepped on the curve, and I hit the curb incorrectly. And I remember my feet just kind of flipped up the I did this weird twist, you know, you know, when you fall, you're just like, you see it happening and the thing was it's cement, you know, and I tripped, I came down onto the pavement and my arms flipped out in front of me. And they put myself into this like plank position. It was the weirdest thing. It was like a cat. And I hit it. And then that moment, I thought to myself, oh my god, I'm glad I'm in shape. Because if I weren't in shape, I would have planted my face right on the cement probably, my my arms would have never supported me. In fact, this woman saw me down the street She came running, and said are you okay? And I was like, Yeah, I mean, I couldn't even believe it.

Sheila 31:03

Just decided to do a plank right now.

David 31:05

It was like I just fell into it.

Adam 31:08

spontaneous plank with groceries.

Sheila 31:10

I just planned that

David 31:11

because I think these are this is one of those miracle moments that you get that you're not aware of that you get when you do this. I think that's what I wanted to leave it on.

Sheila 31:21

Right. That's awesome. I love it.

Adam 31:24

Well, let's leave it there then.

David 31:26

It was a great miracle moment. I would say come have your own miracle moment.

Mike 31:30

I have had several miracle moments. One of the biggest one was I got hit by a car on my bike. I'm not kidding. I just think being like in shape. Like I literally flipped over the car, my hip, smashed the windshield, I rolled over the car and I landed on my feet on the other side of the car.

Tim Edwards 31:47

Oh my god really?

Adam 31:49

We call him MacGyver now.

Mike 31:54

On my hip, but to be honest with you, I was actually Totally 100% Totally fine. Yeah. And I think

Adam 32:01

Although Mike, if you I think if you're in better shape, you end up gotten that abrasion on your hip though.

Mike 32:05

Yeah, exactly. I should not have had that.

David 32:06

It's like it's like a spider man moment. Oh, my God. I have Spider Man. I have spider man powers.

Mike 32:13

creating miracles every day. But there's a lot of moments like that in life. And people who are in shape they maybe they don't they're not that aware of it. But like, when you trip into catch yourself, maybe you're not falling into a plank, but you just stepped to the side. It's just having that that that ability to make that agile movement is oftentimes as a result of just having adequate strength, you know

Tim Edwards 32:40

And we invite you to start making miracles inside your own body, making that change with a slow motion high intensity strength training workout at inform fitness. Many thanks to inform nation member and longtime inform fitness client, David Carlson for joining us here on the podcast. Adam mentioned at the top of the show that he and David are currently working on filming a series of trainer certification videos. In the past, David has also produced several amazing videos for inform fitness. And we'll have links to David's inform fitness productions in the show notes. And I'm also mentioned earlier that our old friend from Episode 19 Bill De Simone has a great series of videos regarding congruent exercise. Those two will appear in the show notes for this episode. And while you're tuning around the show notes don't forget to check out the link to Amazon to pick up Adams book power of 10 the once a week slow motion fitness revolution. Or how about stopping by an inform fitness location nearest you. They have the books there along with some really cool inform fitness apparel, and of course your opportunity to try this workout for yourself. To find an inform fitness location nearest you just visit informfitness.com and next week we'll be joined by inform fitness client and New York City Theater lighting designer Ann Wrightson. Looking forward to talking to Ann next week. Until then, for Adam Mike and Sheila with inform fitness. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting Network.

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The Power of Ten workout, as discussed here at The Inform Fitness Podcast, is a high-intensity, slow-motion strength training protocol closely modulated with your very own one-on-one, personal trainer.
Here in Episode 37 we discuss the potential dangers of not closely modulating a high-intensity exercise program such as CrossFit, excessive spin classes, or marathon training. Working out under very extreme conditions could result in a rare but serious health condition called rhabdomyolysis (rhabdo).
Rhabdo occurs when muscle tissue breakdown results in the release of a protein (myoglobin) into the blood that can result in kidney failure. In this episode, we explain the symptoms rhabdo, the short & long-term effects, and how can you avoid it?
Good Morning America recently reported on the dangers of rhabdo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqMXSN-1HA4

To find an Inform Fitness location nearest you visit www.InformFitness.com
To purchase Adam Zickerman’s book, Power of 10: The Once-a-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution click this link to visit Amazon: http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen

37 Modulating Extremes While Exercising Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, workout, exercise, intensity, extreme, talking, adam, crossfit, minutes, modulating, myoglobin, muscle, fitness, podcast, pushing, intense, clients, happening, technique, episode

SPEAKERS

Tim Edwards, Mike, Adam

Adam 00:06

No, our motto has been, for a long time, the exercise you need to live the life you want. And part of knowing what exercise you need is basically, if you want to get down to it, we're modulating your intensity, how intense is enough to get the responses that we need. Exercise is not about building and seeing how much you can endure, you know, and the more you can endure, doesn't necessarily mean you are getting healthier and healthier, the more you can endure, and it ends up getting into law of diminishing returns. I mean, you don't get out 10 times more results or fitness or health by doing 10 times more work.

Tim Edwards 00:52

Inform nation, welcome to episode 37 of the inform fitness podcast 20 minutes. With New York Times bestselling author, Adam Zckerman and friends. Now we say 20 minutes, but you know, as as the show continues to evolve, so do the topics and 20 minutes sometimes just doesn't seem like enough. So we may have to change the name here pretty soon. But

Adam 01:15

I remember I remember when we were working, thinking about the concept, going back and forth about how we're going to do it. And I was like, if we can't explain something in 20 minutes, then it's not that we don't know our subject well enough, you know, and like, so much for that or subjects. Well,

Tim Edwards 01:32

so much for that.

Adam 01:33

Theres a lot to talk about. I mean, we try our best.

Tim Edwards 01:36

Well, just the opposite, I think because there's

Mike 01:38

the workout on its own is 20 minute workout. In fact, it's quite a bit less than that, you know, when you add up the actual time that you're under load on all the machines when you're in the workout, but yeah, sometimes these these topics that need to be discussed or questions with clients, they this they run out a little bit and usually, I mean, it's stuff's complicated, oftentimes, the answer is there is no answer, we have to sort of look over time and see, you know, try to locate patterns and, and hypothesize and go from there.

Tim Edwards 02:06

And that ties into the podcast too, because you know, when we initially tried to keep the podcast, the approximate length of of a traditional workout at inform fitness. But these topics, there's actually I think just the opposite what you said Adam, earlier was, they're so complex, that 20 minutes doesn't even seem like enough. And that's proven itself.

Adam 02:27

Well, what I want to start doing going forward, actually, with some of these podcasts, these episodes, what I've been noticing, while we've been doing it, and looking back on all this is that we have, we've taken on broad subjects, and we've talked we've had some very broad, but within the subjects that are there are topics among themselves. So like, that's what I'm gonna we're gonna start doing some narrowing down a little bit some of these issues that we've been talking about, for example, last week, when we're talking about two weeks ago, when we're talking with Doug Brignole, we did those two episodes with Doug, you know, Rhabdo came up or or rhabdomyolysis came up. And that that's a condition where your muscles literally bust apart and their innards kind of spread out. And it causes all kinds of problems, which we're going to go into, you know, that that in and of itself is a subject, which is what we're going to talk about a little bit today. And Rhabdo is a good example of a subject that comes up in broader talks now. So for example, we were talking about intensity when Rhabdo came up, and how intense is intense. And how intense should something be how often. And that's what I kind of want to get a little bit deeper into this idea of intensity, this idea of going to extremes. And Rhabdo is just a symptom of that. Oh, by the way, Rhabdo is short for rhabdomyolysis, lysis meaning to explode. And what happens Rhabdo which is short for rhabdomyolysis is through. Usually it's a condition that happens through trauma. Like they call it crush trauma, where you're in a car accident, or you fall two stories out of a window or something like that. That's probably the most common cause of Rhabdo. And of course, during this type of trauma, your muscle cells break open and the myoglobin in particular comes out all the fluids come out, and your kidneys have to deal with that and flush it out. And that can be an overload and you get into all kinds of kidney problems. And you might have to go on dialysis if it's bad enough. It's something that's really never been talked about unless you're basically an ER physician. It rarely was something that talk was talked about in exercise, but it's been coming up a lot and it's been around in exercise I mean endurance ultra endurance athletes who are experiencing Rhabdo you know, marathon runners, the Tour de France and you know, they probably been you know, each year in the endurance athletic world 25 50 cases a year. would occur. And now we're reading about it in The New York Times, which is, it's been so not only do we talk about it last week with Brignole but and when it comes up when you talk about intensity, but now it's coming up in pop culture, like the New York Times article talking about, it's in its fitness section in the science section, it talks about Rhabdo. Wow. And why is that? Why is it all of a sudden being picked up and its causes become prevalent in the exercise world, more so than even in the medical world where there's trauma

Mike 05:33

and cited more specifically, and in spin classes, high intensity spin classes, with newcomers?

Adam 05:41

So it brings up this whole idea of, of extremes of how much how intense is enough. And a lot of my clients brought me the article mentioned, the article said, Hey, Adam, you do a really intense workout. Is this too intense? For me?

Tim Edwards 05:56

you know, when we I first started my work out about now close to almost a year and a half, two years or so, I have some people in the medical community in my family, and they were initially warning me about this, they said, you know, it too intense, you know, could really, your muscles can explode. And you could have kidney issues, and they didn't use the medical term Rhabdo. But they warned me about that. But after a year and a half, I mean, I know we don't get too intense at inform fitness for that to happen, because you trainers catch us, right? When we hit failure.

Adam 06:32

You know, our motto has been, for a long time, the exercise you need to live the life you want. And part of knowing what exercise you need is basically, if you want to get down to it, we're modulating your intensity, how intense is enough to get the responses that we need. Exercise is not about building and seeing how much you can endure, you know, and the more you can endure, doesn't necessarily mean you're getting healthier and healthier, the more you can endure. And it ends up getting into law of diminishing returns. I mean, you don't get out 10 times more results or fitness or health by doing 10 times more work. You know, if it wasn't exercise, and you and the people that work out hours a day, if they weren't doing it on a bicycle, and it was spending that kind of working that hard on a daily basis. If it wasn't on a bicycle, it'd be called manual labor. And nobody's ever said the manual labor is good for you.

Mike 07:31

I think it's it's an interesting question. Like what you just mentioned, how much can you endure, there's a lot of people who when they exercise, and frankly, I was attracted to workouts that were that would push me beyond the edge, you know, and I loved workouts, I love taking bike rides, where the wheels were higher, and I and being with a trainer who would who would just push me so far beyond my limits that I'd have to fall down on the ground, I couldn't I couldn't do anything after that. And I'd love to like brag to people about it, you know, like oh my god, you got to do this this is unbelievable inside and there's there's a certain type of people person that is attracted to workouts like that, which is which is something we have to be very, very careful for we have a lot of type A clients that come here and getting them to understand going to intensity in a safe way. But also understanding a certain level of restraint is as equally important and how you set up your, your dose of exercise your way, same way you set up your dose of food and your dosage of sleep, there is a certain amount that is different for everybody. And as Adam said is our job is to modulate this and to customize it based on the person who is in front of us our workout is generally the same idea like the power of 10 workout is slow weight training on machines mostly, but not necessarily. And we we start slow and and way below what we think they can actually tolerate and then graduate to an intensity that we think that they can they can manage safely and etc etc.

Tim Edwards 09:10

And you know, you're you're doing the your one on one to with your clients, unlike some of the other workout facilities such as I will just say CrossFit, because if you were to just Google Rhabdo, it's tied in with CrossFit. And a lot of the interviews that I've seen on YouTube, for those who have experienced Rhabdo. They're in a CrossFit class where they're not necessarily one on one, but they feel that peer pressure with all of those in the class to take themselves beyond that limit. And that's a very significant distinction between what you do at inform fitness and in the CrossFit community.

Adam 09:44

These coaches in these bootcamp type facilities, these coaches, just just push pushing people too hard, too often and too long. It's a combination of not only the intensity itself for how long have you been exposed that intense within a given workout, is it a 20 minute workout 15 minute workout is an hour workout, the spin classes can sometimes be on and off in varying intensities for 45 minutes to an hour. You know, for a somebody that hasn't built up to that, that can be too much too soon. But maybe 20 minutes is fine. So not only you varying and building up to intensity, but how long it lasts and how often you're doing are you doing it every day? Again, we have this mentality is more is better. So the CrossFit stuff and these boot camps is that they're kind of telling you to come every day and you're doing it for an hour every single day. And and a lot of these people like Mike was talking about there's this this group culture right that this this camaraderie that goes on and they see some of the veterans doing it. Some of the people that are that have gravitated to it that are made for that kind of activity, and then everyone else and the masses are looking at the few people that really excel at it. And they try to do it as weekend warriors as baby boomers as as normally sedentary people. And that pushing themselves to the max right off the bat. And that's a badge of honor. And I don't know if they still do but but CrossFitters have kind of used getting to Rhabdo as as a badge of honor. It's crazy.

Mike 11:21

It I think like looking at the instructors are the guys who are in and girls who really excel at it and using that as a model for what you can do also is it sometimes lead you down a bad road and I think a lot of people you know they do that in every sport to our every exercise a lot of people they go to a Bikram yoga class, for example. They say oh my god that those those teachers are unbelievable. Look at those hot like bodies in the in Bikram yoga, but you know that usually they those are the type of people who've been doing it for a long time. And they've been they they're they're probably former dancers, and they've had a body that was like that before they even did the Bikram yoga and therefore, is easy for them to show that excellence in the practice as well, you know, for what they're trying to do.

Adam 12:07

There's a common thing you know, you see somebody that excels at a particular thing and the tighter their game and you think if you do what they do, you'll be there too. And it's just not the case. It's the causation is the opposite. We I think we've talked about this in prior episodes. I mean, we look at we look at a dancer and how great they are Pilates. And we think that Pilates made them look that way or dance made them look that way. But they actually is the opposite. They dance because they look that way. They just have that genetics for we had a very interesting conversation with Doug last week about intensity, and you have to find your intensity. All right, so just I just want to kind of recap and where do you go from? What do you do with this information that we're talking about this idea of modulating intensity? I know we talked about in the last episode, with Doug and I agreed with him 100% on this. And by the way, I'm going to be making commentaries on the last episode, though, because a lot of people said to me, Oh, that was really interesting. But it sounds like he said some things counter to what you've been saying. And I don't want these episodes to be so sterile and to be just all my opinion, you know, like Fox News, and you bring everybody on that's gonna agree with, with your viewpoint or CNN for that matter. I want I want to bring in all viewpoints and but I do want to comment about some of the things that were talked about on that and clarify a couple of things and bring up some points. One of the points that we talked about that I do agree with was this idea of in the proper way to work out and and what intensity is best for you is something that you find, alright, it finds you it's not like you have to find the perfect intensity, the right intensity will actually find you if you are strategic about approaching it. And this, this is the takeaway. All right, first of all, where the workout with us is, this is what we do, we take on a new client. And then what you should do for yourself. First thing you do is learn a technique, learn what the technique is going to be to reach this level of intensity we talked, we recommend slow reps, nice and controlled. Don't lock out your joints, all the biomechanical stuff that we like to incorporate. Right and do it slowly and work it out and learn how to do it. And if you're not experienced with really high intense exercise and taking the muscle to its limits, don't just flirt with it for a while and then take it to the next level and see if you can and you're timing yourself. So what you can do is you can very easily say oh I lasted 20 seconds last summer a minute and 20 seconds last time. I'm going to use the same way. But now I'm going to last a minute 25 seconds just add five more seconds. You can be very conservative with this. Alright, and just get good at the technique and and keep pushing yourself until eventually you really can really wipe out that muscle pretty much you can't lift it anymore. Still breathing properly. Not putting yourself in harm's way still going slowly. And after five or six exercises like that. If you're pretty feeling pretty spent you did your job for the most part and then you take it from there and you keep bearing intense in your in your monitoring intensity by timing how long it takes you to get to a certain level of fatigue.

Tim Edwards 12:28

But a key component here to Adam is rest, though, unlike some of the other,

Adam 15:10

well, this is the so so that's the point with the technique. And then the other part about approaching this whole thing, and making sure you don't even get close to reaching something as severe and as serious as Rhabdo is, it's gonna be very hard for you, if you modulate your intention, you learn how to work on intensity, and you only do it for 20 minutes at a time. Alright, and you only do it once or twice or three times a week even. Alright, it's gonna be very hard to get to that level, because that's not what causes Rhabdo usually, all right, the cases of rap the first of all, I've been doing this 20 years, I've been doing this 20 years, and even at the beginning, when I was overzealous and I pushed people probably a little too hard at the beginning and didn't understand this as well as I do. Now, I still didn't have anybody that reached Rhabdo. Alright, and it's been 20 years now. All right. And I don't think we've even come close to having somebody reach Rhabdo a couple of vomiting sessions here and there. But that's about as far as it's gone, you know, so. So, you know, that that's the trick that the reason we haven't is because not only is it learning how to work up to a certain level of intensity, but it's modulating that intensity in terms of frequency, and duration. Those are the three things you have to monitor and balance. And if it's not too long, and you're not doing it too often. And you build up to a level intensity, for you to reach Rhabdo or anything close to it, you'd have to be that freak that has a genetic propensity for it, which is also another thing about this is not everybody that joins CrossFit or spin classes and starts hitting it hard right from the beginning is going to most people are still not going to reach Rhabdo even if they don't do what I suggest. Alright, there is a certain level of some people just they have a propensity to reach Rhabdo. I mean, yeah, you know, they're just generically speaking, they're probably a little bit on the other side of the genetic coin.

Mike 15:30

Yeah, I think this is a very, I mean, it's newsworthy, and it needs to be mentioned by the times, and the fitness community does need to know about it. But even in CrossFit circles in spin classes, it's a very outlying condition that I don't think most people will ever, ever, ever have to be concerned about. But the Add was big point. And whether it's you're doing slow weight training, or any exercise for that matter, I think the most important thing is to at first, learn the technique, get an expert who you can, who can teach you the technique, a big part of technique, and this is going off in another direction, but I'm just gonna mention it is just knowing how to breathe and a lot of a lot of problems that sometimes people have an exercise, it's just because they're not breathing correctly, or they can't perform, because they're not breathing the way that activity demands. And our our technique in itself, also, if you could be doing things slowly, but if you're not breathing correctly, you can run into problems in that as well, you know, and another thing that has to be carefully considered when you're doing intense exercise.

Tim Edwards 18:02

Now, for those that are doing this on their own, this type of workout or any type of workout, can you give me some of the symptoms of Rhabdo for those that might be going too far.

Adam 18:13

First of all, there's a very quick blood test that you can test for Plus, your urine turns on dark brown, red, reddish brown, that's from all the myoglobin, that that's being filtered out, very fatigued, hard to move the limbs, muscle soreness, nausea, dizziness, you know, that that's not getting better. You know, it's different from feeling a little lightheaded after a hard workout. It's accompanied by a lot of stiffness and pain in the affected areas, swelling and real fatigue like hard to move the joints, it's, you know, it's pretty obvious when somebody is in that state. And if you were to be brought to emergency room, first thing they do is you know, hydrate you. One thing that happens, besides your kidneys being overloaded with trying to clean out all the myoglobin is that because your cells explode and the the water pressure within the cell drops, all the fluids from outside the cell rush in like getting a hole in your boat, right? And what happens the leak starts coming in. And when that happens, you become severely your your, your, your blood volume drops, and therefore you can go into shock. Yikes. So this is a very it can be a very serious situation. This is beyond happening. In fact, it's happening more often than the exercise industry is concerned is reason for concern. So that's why we're talking about it because, again, it's happening more often in the exercise world and that's ridiculous. You know, shouldn't be so that's so anyway,

Tim Edwards 19:55

is this more prevalent in the exercise community than say a sports injury?

Adam 20:00

That's not so much a sports injury as much as like just over exertion your muscles just basically they give out.

Mike 20:04

Okay, its associated with training

Adam 20:06

its associated with a lot of training, I mean, again, yes, endurance, athletics and sports, they've always had a percentage of that happening, you know, training camp football training camp, you know, basketball camps are they're just pushing, you're pushing, you're pushing, you know, Bobby Knight style, you know, and that's where it's been known to happen. But that's extreme high elite level athletics and they take it too far. And, again, they can be a genetic propensity, you know, I think Len bias, for example, right from the Celtics, and how he just dropped on the court, there's probably some kind of congenital thing that happens as well. But the fact is happening to everyday people. Now more often that's concerned, because we're about we're about preaching, exercise for health, not not exercise to become a world class athlete, you know, and we don't want people to confuse a lot of these activities with with having it have better results are burning a lot of fat and this extreme mentality, that we honor people that can do that we look at Navy SEALs, and we admire them, you know, but that doesn't mean that training like a Navy Seal is good for your health. It's a big difference. And, and because we admire a Navy Seal, for example, we want to emulate that, including the way they train, and it makes us tough makes us strong, it feeds our egos, but it's very unhealthy behavior

Tim Edwards 21:21

ultimately

Adam 21:22

And you got to remember why we exercise we exercise, maintaining strength as we get older and not screw up our joints in the process, not really undermine our health in the process. And getting Rhabdo is undermining your health for sure. And we're not talking about again, you know, if you're lucky, you overcome it, if it's not a severe case, you overcome it, you go to the hospital, they give you they, they hydrate you because like I said, your, your your fluids dropped dramatically, and your kidneys are overloaded. So they flush you out, basically, and they give you a lot of fluids. And if that's not enough, they'll put you on dialysis. And if it's really severe, you might have some long lasting muscle damage, and long lasting kidney damage. And in the worst of it, you know, so it's not worth it, you know, and we you don't ever have to work out that hard and get that close to reaching a condition like that, to get healthy to get fit. You know, and I think a lot of people that gravitate to these types of activities, I think, and this is definitely open for discussion, and we can bring some people on in the future about this. I think they're replacing it with something else, some other void in their life. And it's really not about health. I think intuitively a lot of people realize it can't be good for me doing it this much. And I think they're filling a void. And you know, for example, a lot of anorexics, a former anorexic. So people that have eating disorders, that trying to overcome it, they end up over actually going into programs with over exercising now, you know, you have a lot of people that that bariatric patients, people that have lost dramatic, dramatic amount of weight that used to have that used to eat tremendous amounts of food that that now they can't, they just can't because the surgery they had doesn't even allow them to eat like that anymore. So now they have to find some other outlet for whatever caused them to be over eating like that in the first place. And they end up now joining CrossFit and they end up putting themselves in another kind of addictive state or place. And I'm very sensitive to that, because I've seen it over the years happen over and over again, people that, you know, recovering drug addicts or recovering alcoholics, they end up overcompensating with something else.

Tim Edwards 23:36

So what would seem like a healthy option, a healthy a new choice can be taken to the extreme to their disadvantage. Clearly,

Mike 23:43

I think it's associated with certain psychologies and certain personalities, it's and it's something that even I think sometimes people feel that this fulfills that for them as well. Sometimes they're not looking at it. Maybe when they first come in here, or there's an element of its of the intensity that is involved that people may actually use for that.

Adam 24:05

Absolutely. And we have to we have to pull it pull the reins back on our clients who asked to come do this three times a week or they say to us, um, do I have to do something else so they end up joining other programs.

Mike 24:16

we hear that all the time. I've had I had a client just this week, she's She literally wants to come four times. I'm like, You have any idea what you're talking about. Yeah, and the thing is, it's it is actually it is associated with I think a compensation and something else in her life. But um, regardless, you know,

Adam 24:34

this is why guys buy Porsches,

Mike 24:36

we yeah, we went we went into this. We went into talking about Rhabdo today, and I think the parent topic I think is about going to extremes, modulating where extreme is appropriate, and where it's not appropriate. And I think

Adam 24:54

actually kind of extreme is rarely appropriate. You know, I mean, there's no reason that go through extreme ranges of motion, there's no reason to restrict your calories in extreme way. There is no reason to work out extreme levels of intensity. I don't know. I mean, give me an example where no extreme unless it's life saving, you need to do anything extreme.

Mike 25:19

I think that's true. What I'm talking about is perception of things. Because I'm I know that people think that what we do is extreme. And I know that, for example, like we talked about this yesterday morning, and you're like other people who think keto, Adam has had tremendous success in doing a ketogenic diet, conjoined with some intermittent fasting and to a lot of people. That's extreme. Yeah, you know, and so I that's what I that's my point is that this is

Adam 25:46

so who am I talking about? Be careful of being extreme when you just did a ketogenic diet. Adam, right. I mean,

Tim Edwards 25:51

we've talked a lot about intensity on this podcast over the last year and a half or so. And people's perception might be that we do take it to the extreme. And so this episode can dispel that, that myth,

Mike 26:05

well, people's perceptions. People's perception oftentimes is their reality. And even saying, like, for example, forget even danger. Just a statement, Oh, I did this workout, it's once a week for 30 minutes, 20 minutes or whatever. Like that is an extreme statement that most people based on what their beliefs are about exercise are. That's extremely ridiculous.

Tim Edwards 26:27

On the other side of that, though, when you explain to them those that are saying that that's ridiculous, and there's no way you can see results when you tell them? Well, the reason I'm seeing results, because I'm being pushed to muscle failure, and then hold for 10 seconds. And that's where they go, Oh, that doesn't seem safe. And, you know, like you said, hadn't been doing this for 20 plus years, and I've never seen a Rhabdo case, once with an all the

Mike 26:52

great, the great many of we've had, you know, tons of wonderful publicity over the years. I mean, but I gotta say and, and, and we've done marketing websites, and so many different things. And we have our podcast here and we have lots of fun guests, but I gotta tell you, what really brings people in here are the refer our existing clients and their results. They they refer somebody and they come in like, listen, I thought it sounded ridiculous, but you know, so and so is stronger and they lost all this weight. They only work out once a week and I thought this is crazy. And so now I'm here and and that's literally what you everybody's BS detector goes off. Usually when they hear like, Oh, this 20 minute workout, but you know, it's and that's what I'm, there

Adam 27:37

if there was a children's book that that that represent who we are. As a philosophy would be, you know, Goldilocks and the Three Bears? No, not not, not the wolf. And the three pigs not that one. Not. Hansel and Gretel.

Mike 27:57

Cats for sale

Adam 27:58

we call the Goldilocks and the Three Bears.

Mike 28:01

You haven't read curious, George goes to CrossFit and gets Rhabdo . That's a good one. Boy, he was so curious.

Adam 28:12

So that's not the children's story that our represents who we are.

Tim Edwards 28:17

But the one of the one that would would be Goldilocks, right? So explained. Goldilocks,

Mike 28:23

you lost me at Goldilocks.

Tim Edwards 28:30

So she's eaten the porridge?

Adam 28:31

its not too hot too cold? Just Right. Right. Right. Oh, we're trying to find what's right, hard enough, but not too hard. You know, that that whole deal. And and that's not always very sexy to everybody. But it's a golden rule that we learn at a very young age. And we have to constantly remind ourselves of that golden rule, I think

Mike 28:50

yeah, you know, what I was thinking before going back to the parent topic of extremes and everything, I wanted to consider something that because I mean, from our experience, we've never, Adam and I've done this a long time. And we've never experienced a Rhabdo case or anything even is close to a Rhabdo case, frankly. But the idea of going to extremes is something that is relevant it I think to everybody and whether you're working out with a trainer, or on your own, or in a team setting or whatever, in a group setting, figuring this out is a lot easier said than done. And you know, when you're exercising in a worthwhile fashion, you want to think about worrying what you imagine what your limit actually is. And finding that is sometimes difficult and then what you want to do is just go outside of that outside of that range just a little bit and then come back into that range. You want to be slightly outside your comfort zone and back in and that's the trick and how to restrain

Adam 29:48

there's no rush but but at the same time you you do have to learn to push yourself and keep going

Mike 29:52

yes, that's that's and that's that's a trick and the thing is the thing that I was thinking about while you were talking before was that There are people that have cardiovascular endurance levels, and muscular strength levels. But sometimes they don't have the orthopedic strength or the joint strength or the mobility in order to do certain things. And I think that is something where you really have to take what we're saying into consideration because people can run, they have the endurance to run 10 miles at a seven minute mile pace. And they can, their heart can support that, but their knees can't support that. And there are people that they don't listen to their knees. And when they're trying to actually figure this whole thing out. Those are the types of things that we need to consider, as you know, in our workouts right now is where are our limitations, because we may have strengths in one avenue like cardio, but not so strong in something else. And finding that balance Goldilocks style is, is literally, that's the challenge for all of us as trainers and as clients and as everyone.

Tim Edwards 31:03

Alright, thanks, guys. Great discussion today. That was part one of a two part episode regarding modulating intensity. Since we spent the entire show today discussing the need for modulating intensity in your exercise program. Next week, we'll shift our focus to our diet. If you're a subscriber or a regular listener of the podcast, you know that earlier this year, Adam adopted a ketogenic diet. Some would say that that would be an extreme decision, or is it? How safe is it to make extreme changes in your diet? We'll discuss all of that and more next week. Hey, if you've not yet stepped inside an inform fitness location, and you're lucky enough to be near one of our seven locations across the US. What are you waiting for? Become an official member of the inform nation and give the power of 10 workout a try for yourself. Seriously, just 20 to 30 minutes of safe, modulated intensity with your One on One trainer, and you are done for the entire week. Burn off the fat, build up the muscle and join the movement. Visit informfitness.com for all of the locations across the country. All of our podcast episodes are there and a ton of videos. And finally, check out the show notes for today's episode for link to Amazon to pick up Adams book power of 10 the once a week slow motion fitness revolution. You can pick it up in the Kindle version for like less than 10 bucks. I'm sure you noticed that we missed our buddy Sheila Melody today. She'll be back with us in just a couple of weeks. So for the rest of the team, Mike Rogers and Adam Zickerman. I'm Tim Edwards with the inbound podcasting Network.

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Professional bodybuilder, author, trainer, and biomechanics expert Doug Brignole joins us here on Episode 36 of the InForm Fitness Podcast. Doug will share his deep knowledge of and training principles, including compound movements vs isolation movements, exercise vs. recreation, the pros and cons to adding variety to your workouts, static vs dynamic exercises, the proper forms of exercise to improve your balance and core strength, and intensity & recovery.

For more information about Doug Brignole:
http://www.greatestphysiques.com/doug-brignole/
http://billcomstock.net/bodybuilding/biomechanics/
To purchase Doug Brignole’s book, Million Dollar Muscle: A Historical and Sociological Perspective of the Fitness Industry click this link to visit Amazon: http://bit.ly/MillionDollarMuscle

To purchase Adam Zickerman’s book, Power of 10: The Once-a-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution click this link to visit Amazon: http://bit.ly/ThePowerofTen
To find an Inform Fitness location nearest you visit www.InformFitness.com

36 Bodybuilding and Biomechanics with Doug Brignole Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

muscle, exercise, leg, triceps, movement, doug, compound movements, weight, bodybuilding, bosu ball, quadricep, lift, overhead presses, workout, abs, body, standing, lever, fitness, good

SPEAKERS

Sheila, Tim Edwards, Mike, Doug Brignole, Adam

Doug Brignole 00:05

It is very naive to assume that the heavier weight you're moving, the more you're loading a muscle, you can actually load a muscle more with less weight based on the kind of physics you're using. So if you're using a longer lever, your magnet magnifying the weight that you're using much more. If you have better alignment, you're magnifying the weight much more. If you are able to use a lot of weight, it means that you're using an efficient mechanic. So it means basically, you're lifting something up with a crowbar, right? The heavier the weight feels, the more efficient the mechanics. If you can load your site deltoid maximally with 30 or 40 pounds, and you think it might be better to overhead press 150 pounds, then you're just missing the point.

Tim Edwards 00:55

Hey what's up inform nation. Thanks again for joining us here on the inform fitness podcast, where we discuss slow motion high intensity strength training in a safe and effective manner. I'm Tim Edwards, the founder of the inbound podcasting network, and a client of inform fitness. And in just a moment, we'll have the founder of inform fitness and New York Times best selling author himself, Adam Zickerman who will lead the show along with the GM of the Manhattan location, Mike Rogers, and co owner of the Toluca Lake Burbank location. Sheila Melody. The voice you heard at the top of the show belongs to professional bodybuilder Doug Brignole. Now listen, if you're not interested in bodybuilding, don't go anywhere, because you are really going to enjoy our time with doug. Not only does he have a really big and fun personality, but he's chock full of valuable information that would be both interesting and useful for anybody interested in strength training safely. Doug's going to share his deep knowledge of biomechanics and training principles, including compound movements versus isolation movements, exercise versus recreation, the pros and cons to adding variety to your workouts, static versus dynamic exercises, the proper form of exercise to improve your balance and core strength. And finally, intensity, and recovery. And we'll touch on all those topics and more, which means that this episode might last a few of your commutes. If you're listening in the car, or several walks around the block, if you're walking the dog, however, you might be listening. We hope you enjoy our time with Doug Brignole.

Adam 02:28

So glad to have you with us.

Doug Brignole 02:30

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Adam 02:32

It's a real honor to talk to somebody with your experience and expertise in this field. So So Doug is a bodybuilder right doug?

Doug Brignole 02:43

Yes, I guess you could say that. Although that's sort of like a small piece of what I do a lot of body builders that don't do what I do

Adam 02:49

So what makes Doug so unique is that Doug is an intellectual bodybuilder, I guess you can call it and he that he hasn't really fallen prey to all the cultural and mythological aspects of bodybuilding that have existed for, I don't know, 50 years, 60 years, 70 years and beyond.

Doug Brignole 02:58

100 years, actually. Yeah

Adam 03:10

there you go. What I like about your doug is as a bodybuilder, you debunk a lot of the myths that people have, have had about bodybuilding. Like, for example, we're gonna get into a lot of things about this. But like, for example, you say, which is unusual for the bodybuilding community, you say that bearing exercises for the same body part is really not essential for muscle growth. So many popular exercises in bodybuilding are just downright dangerous. And at the very least, and inefficient. You talk about why it's impossible that to isolate your lower abs for example, and the myths go on and on that, that that you talk about, that we've been talking about, too. So it's nice, but but no one listens to me really sometimes because let's, you know, I'm not big and muscular

03:57

you're not a titleholder that ends up getting more attention than a PhD.

Adam 04:01

Yeah, so what do I know? Right? I mean, look at you, you're a skinny little, you know, nine to five foot nine Jew and come on. So, so thing is, this is why I like talking to guys like you because you are not following the culture and still you've been a competitive and very successful bodybuilder. So can you just give us a little brief synopsis of your bodybuilding history and some of your accomplishments not just the bodybuilding, but also as succinctly as possible talk about your career as well.

04:33

Alright, well, I started weight training when I was 14, because I was very skinny. And I just wanted to gain some muscle. And I was fortunate enough to be living about five blocks away from a gym that was owned by 4 times Mr. Universe winner Bill Pearl. And I went there I had no money essentially, and we struck a deal and I would go into every Saturday and scrub the showers and do janitorial work in exchange for membership and I started competing within a year 16 years old was my first contest. By the time I was 19, I had won teenage California teenage America, at 22, I won Mr. California, at 26, I won my division of Mr. American Mr. Universe. And I continued competing on and off until I was 56, which is a 40 year span of competitions, longer than most people for sure who've been in that sport. So along the way, of all these years of competing, I was very analytical about you know, what it is that constitutes a good exercise, or a bad exercise, there has to be mechanical components. And whatever those mechanical components are, that could be deemed good or bad, would naturally be consistent across the board. If incomplete range of motion is bad, in one exercise would be bad in all of them, for example, and bench presses one example of that, right? When you finish a bench press, your hands are far away from the center of your body. So if that's an incomplete range of motion anywhere else, why wouldn't it be there? So a lot of the things that I was realizing were very profound, and have names, technical names, and I would later discover them as I would go to cadaver dissections, and read University textbooks and, and, and just sort of ponder sort of the correlation between the physics, the anatomy, the sociology, the brainwashing that has, you know, been happening through all these years that have led people to believe that certain things are just to be not questioned, like compound movements, and people will say, Oh, you need a foundation in the power lifts to bodybuild? Well, there's just no logic in that, really, I mean, a muscle doesn't know if it's working alone, or if it's working at the same time other muscles are working. So I came up with this book about a year ago called the physics of fitness, which basically explains, biomechanics and explains what works and what doesn't work, and why and how physics and anatomy sort of joined forces. And it's, I guess, you could say it's rocking, making waves because it goes against conventional wisdom.

Adam 07:19

You know, as far as I see it, I always see approaching exercise and and how to build a program for yourself as coming at it from two fronts. One, you have the biomechanics front, then you have the physiology front, right. Alright, so what I like to focus on, initially, because I do want to get into both fronts, but initially, I want to get into this biomechanics front. And when I was first introduced to you, you had sent me a chapter of one of your books, basically talking about compound movements versus isolation movements, which, which is really fascinating because I when we're talking about beliefs before, and all these beliefs that exists in exercise culture, one that can be traced back hundreds of years, like you said, is that is the belief that compound movements, otherwise known as multi joint, multi muscle type movements are generally better than simple isolation movements, single joint single muscle fragments. Now, I want to talk about how this belief got started. But before I do just for people listening that don't know the terminology, quickly explain the difference between a compound movement and a simple movement.

Doug Brignole 08:28

Yeah, as you said, a compound movement is a multi joint multi muscle movement that some people refer to as functional, which is absurd, because it suggests that something that isn't compound is dysfunctional. Right. But that would almost suggest that if you do isolation exercises, somehow your body isn't going to be able to coordinate all of its various muscle strains at the same time. It's absurd. I mean, yes, it's true that if you're doing Dead Hand cleans, you get skilled at doing dead head cleans, right. So that doesn't necessarily mean that you can cross that over into something that doesn't look anything like a dead hand clean, just means you're learning the skill you're learning to coordinate, all of the muscles are participate in that movement, in a particular event, but the idea that, that it's a compound movement will then make you better able to use those participating muscles, as as compared to isolation exercises, has no logic in whatsoever.

Adam 09:28

So how did this get started? I mean, like, where did this fascination and this reverence of compound movements get started?

09:35

Well, it started in fact, in my book, I talked about how, you know, once upon a time, without superior strength. As a man, you were in big trouble, right? You couldn't provide food for yourself. You couldn't protect yourself in battle. You can provide for your family, you can provide for your offspring.

Adam 09:57

It's a good thing I live now.

Doug Brignole 09:59

That's the whole point. In my book, I talk about how today, you know, survival is about having knowledge, skills, you know, earning ability, this is how we survive today in a civilized society, but back then, none of that mattered what mattered was literally your physical strength. And so what ended up happening was that they would, there would be like, you know, stories of her whether it's Hercules, or, you know, any of these people that has superior strength, Milo cretin, you know, that, you know, he would carry a ball every day on his shoulders, his daily exercise. And so it became this sort of like fabled thing where exhibitions of strength were really, really, really respected. And so what what ended up happening was eventually became circus acts, there would be people that would hold a platform up with 16 people standing on the platform, or a man lifting an elephant. And so nobody cared how strong each individual muscle was, what he cared was how much total the lift was. And so, but when bodybuilding came along, and by the way, in the early years of bodybuilding, it was considered vain. It was considered dishonorable to pursue aesthetics.

Adam 11:12

Yeah, I remember you saying that isolation exercises were regarded as vanity exercises. Well, yeah, it was, it was only focusing on one's appearance.

Doug Brignole 11:21

Right? If there's a magazine that was actually several issues, had a banner at the bottom that said, weakness, a crime Don't be a criminal. Well, what it might as well have said is, a lot of failing to exhibit strength is a crime. So if you did a variety of exercises that were isolation exercises, you can be deemed a criminal because you weren't exhibiting a large lift at one time. Never mind that each individual muscle that's working in isolation, might actually be working harder than it would be in a compound lift. So it just became that this sort of conventional wisdom that if you wanted to body build, you have to start off with deadlifts and heavy squats and bent over barbell rows and overhead presses. But if you look at the body is just a machine with of pulleys and levers and pivots. And then you realize that it's just a mechanism. And the idea that you can I mean, it, you wouldn't, you would never, let's say, look at an actual machine made out of steel and pulleys and, and somehow come to the conclusion that that machine would work better if it had multiple things working at one time than one I mean, the machine is the machine, right in the body as a machine. And so if you really want to train as efficiently as possible, meaning the lowest risk of injury and the maximum amount of loading for the energy and amount of weight used, isolation are actually better.

Adam 12:52

Yes. So are you telling me then that in your career as a bodybuilder, you avoided compound movements? Or, or in most of your training was done with isolation movements? Or are you mixed it up?

13:07

Well, I will tell you this, that I had a very, very good sense from the very beginning of what, what felt natural or what didn't feel natural. Okay, so a squat, for example, is a compound exercise, but it involves basically two natural movements, hip extension and knee extension. Now, we can talk about how efficient that is in just a moment. But at least each of those two joints are doing what those joints do best.

Adam 13:33

Right.

Doug Brignole 13:33

Now, let's look at an upright row. That is absolutely not true for an upright grown up try to do is a very contorted exercise. Yeah. Which makes you twist your wrist sideways.

Adam 13:42

Yep.

Doug Brignole 13:43

Your deltoid does not end up where the deltoid would end up if you were doing a lateral abduction. And so I always tell people, like if you look at someone doing an upright row, and you imagine the straightening their arms, when they're on top, you go, Oh, guess what, that pretty much ends where a side raise would end. The only thing you've done now is is bent the elbow and inverted it forward.

Adam 14:04

Yeah,

Doug Brignole 14:04

and there's there's no benefit to the deltoid for doing that. It's just a less comfortable movement. So I avoided the compound movements that seemed unnatural.

Adam 14:15

Sure

Doug Brignole 14:15

but I did do the compound movements like squat that seemed natural, without joint distortion. But then you can get into things like, like, if you look at a let me just get into a little tiny bit of physics here. I won't dwell on it too much. But in physics, any lever that is parallel to the direction of resistance, and right away, people are glazing over. Right? As I say that, like a lamppost is vertical, because a lamppost is vertical to gravity. And so it's balanced over its base. But if you tried to anchor that lamppost at a 45 degree angle, you have to bolt it down to the ground with a lot more force a lot more bolts, because now it wants to fall. Okay, so uh, lever that is parallel to gravity or whatever resistance is going to be a zero neutral lever and one that is perpendicular to gravity or whatever you happen to be using for resistance is going to be what I call a 100% lever, a maximally active lever. So when you look at a squat, and you realize that the lower leg is the operating lever of the quadricep, and you realize it doesn't even reach a 45 degree angle, you say, Well, it's actually closer to neutral than it is to fully active.

Adam 15:31

It's more of a more of a glute exercise, and then a quad exercise.

15:34

So let's look at that in just a moment. So what I want to say is, you know, if you're doing, let's say, a 200 pound squat, you got 200 pounds pressing down on your spine, that's the cost, right? And the benefit is 30% of that is going on your quad. That's not a good trade off. 30% benefit in all the spinal compression,

Adam 15:57

right? So as opposed to, let's say, a knee extension,

16:00

right, so So then someone would say, Well, yeah, okay, maybe the lower leg does actually only go to about a 30 degree angle from neutral, but the femur does get vertical, I mean, does get horizontal, right? It does get perpendicular, and I go yes, but look what's happening. With the lower leg, the lower leg is doubling under the femur, right? It's doubling back under the femur, which is effectively shortening the femur. Right? So when we talk about mechanics, there's a thing called the moment arm. And the moment arm happens when you draw a vertical line, straight up from the, say, the heel straight up and straight up through the hip joint. And you realize instead of being the length of a regular femur, it's about half the length of a regular femur. So yes, you're getting an active femur, but a very shortened femur. And someone says, Well, how can we make that better? Well, ironically, the way you make the femur more effective is by taking that lower leg. And instead of having it be an inward angle, having it straight it straight down, and then you've eliminated the quad. Right? So that's the irony is by working both, you're compromising both.

Adam 17:11

Right

Doug Brignole 17:12

That's a good argument for why it's better to isolate because as soon as you try to combine a glute and a quad exercise, you literally compromise both, you got a percentage. And this is all about percentages. By the way, when someone says, you know, what is your what is your method all about? I basically say, well, it's about efficiency

Mike 17:31

in the context of how we use our muscles in our life, when people talk about functional training, muscles work together, the quadriceps, the glutes, the hamstrings, the hips, and should we be thinking about how to train these muscles in the context of working together,

17:48

the first thing we should probably do is define what a natural movement is. Okay? So if we go by the the, the fact that all muscles pull toward their origins, okay, that is an absolute fact that muscle can do nothing other than pull towards its origin. If you are if you are a pectoral muscle, fiber origin, standing on a sternum, and you're holding that pectoral fiber that goes across the chest crosses the shoulder joint ties into the upper end of the humerus, the only thing you can do is pull toward you, you're going to pull that humerus toward you now whether that humerus actually does come toward you depends on whether or not other pectoral fibers are also pulling. And so maybe collectively, we'll pull in a slightly different direction. But I can only pull toward me, right, so. So the most natural movement would be taking a limb towards directly toward its origin, muscle origin. The other way of looking at natural movement is to say, how have our joints evolved, and for what reason that they've evolved that way. So once upon a time, we were quadrupeds, we walked on all fours. Little by little, we started walking slightly more upright, which meant that we when we were quandra, pets, we were pushing straight down with our pecs. And as we got more and more upright, we were pushing progressively more downward, right, but we never had to push upward. It was never a reason it was never a need to push toward an incline angle. There were no incline benches in the early days of hominids, right, and the only way to create an incline angle would have been to elevate your upper body so that your head was much lower than your feet. And there would have been no functional, purposeful reason to do that. So our shoulder joint nor our musculature has evolved to perform an incline movement. It has evolved to perform forward and downward decline movements. So this is how I typically say, let's start off by saying what is a natural movement something that we have evolved to do an overhead tricep extension is not something that we have to do with that shoulder joint on a regular basis. If the objective is to work the triceps You can work it with the shoulder joint in a much more natural position, that being with your upper arm alongside your, your, your torso. Anyway. So what I say is this is, you know, since my background and my focus is bodybuilding, what I try to do is I say, how can we get the most bang for the buck in terms of muscle development? Well, the best way we do that is by be working in as pure a form as possible, maybe by making that lever go directly to an exclusively to the origin of that muscle.

Adam 20:30

So the most efficient way of using that muscle

20:32

yeah, now, if you do that, the strength you gain in that those petrol fibers can be applied anyway, they can be applied when you're washing dishes, they can be applied when you're juggling, they can be applied in a million different ways. It would be ridiculous to assume that it would only work for exercises that were similar to the ones you did in the gym. So it is functional, right? There's no way that a muscle can get stronger and then not coordinate with other muscles when the time comes. But when someone says So are you saying that we should never do compound exercise? I say no. Because if you combine, let's say, let's say you're doing a curling with a step up, okay, you're stepping up and at the same time, you're curling. Okay, well, you've got more muscles working, you've got more oxygen demand, you've got more cardiovascular stimulation, there's benefit there, if you're working only in isolation, you know, let's say if you're trying to combine some strength training with some cardiovascular and some proprioception training, which is basically coordination, right? That's a good thing to do. But if your goal is to is to build muscle, and you're going to care less about proprioception.

Adam 21:41

Yeah, well, that's why that's why we do both. That's why when we program most most of our clients workouts, and when we recommend people how to work out, we like mixing both in we like we like the efficiency of the isolation movements and really working on muscle to its truest function to is tracking it's true as function. And like you said, I mean, there's no, there's no doubt that doing a knee extension tracks that function of the quadriceps a lot better than a squat would or even a leg press would. But I also take in consideration what you were mentioning before also, I mean, compound movement is metabolically much more demanding. And you go from exercise to exercise doing compound.

Doug Brignole 22:23

And it's more athletic. Right? There's, there's more athletic system that is required. And there's a, that's a coordination advantage.

Adam 22:31

Yeah, and I see physiological benefits from pushing the energy systems drastically. And the best way to push energy systems

Doug Brignole 22:38

yes

Adam 22:39

to their max is through is through compound movements. So as long as those compound movements are generally safe, and I'm not putting I'm not putting barbells on or recommending people put barbells over their shoulders to do a compound type movement. Like, like you mentioned, I know, you mentioned this stuff, there are other ways of doing squats or, or compound leg movements without putting huge levers on your shoulders with lots of weight on

23:07

and putting a metal barbell on the very top of your spinal column is not a good idea. I mean, the spine is a lever, right? So you put a load the top lever, and I was talking to the Leaning Tower of Pisa has its greatest stress at the base opposite the lean, yes, the lower back. So there's no way you're going to be able to put a wheel jump and not strain the lower back. A purist, someone like let's say me, who just says, you know, I want to get from point A to point B, as forcefully and dramatically and as quickly as I possibly can, then I'm going to exclude the stuff that is maximally productive, right. But when we're dealing with the public, as trainers, we also have to realize that there's a compliance issue. There's a motivation issue, there's a fun enjoyment issue, right. So if

Adam 24:02

screw that

Doug Brignole 24:03

if we're too, if we're too monotonous, monotonous, by the way, is certainly productive. But it makes it less fun. And there are some people with a psychology psychological profile that just absolutely need some variety, or else they will get so bored, they will end up quitting. And so for those people are better off to just keep things a little interesting, even if it means that what you're trading away is 5% 8% productivity, but you're bringing more enjoyment to the program. And so it helps them with their compliance. If you were to lay out in the sun every day for 30 minutes. And after doing this for two months, you think you're plateauing and so you think you need variety. So you decide that you're going to go try some incandescent light instead, or you decide you're going to try some fluorescent light or infrared light or neon lights, right? And you realize, no, because these aren't all equal forms of stimulation. Right? So if you've plateaued from being in the sun, it doesn't mean that sunlight or UVB light, or UV light, isn't the best way to tan, it just means that you need a little break, take three days to six days off, and then when you come back, everything's fresh again. Right? So now, let's compare that to exercise. Let's say someone says, you know, I've been doing these tricep pushdowns. With the cable for the last three months, I think I'm going to switch to parallel bar dips. Well, guess what, the tricep is still doing the exact same thing. The tricep extends the elbow. That's all it does

Adam 25:40

just not as efficiently, far from it actually

Doug Brignole 25:42

far from it.

Adam 25:43

So it's more it's more stress on your anterior delts. And your triceps. So why do it

Doug Brignole 25:48

and this is this is what I explained to people is getting back to what we were talking about before about parallel levers versus perpendicular levers. When you see someone doing a bench dip, or a parallel bar dip, and you notice that their forearm is almost vertical, it only breaks from the neutral vertical position by about 11 degrees,

Adam 26:09

which is it, which means your triceps is

26:13

only getting about 11%. Right, right. So here's the math I do on that, as I say, if you're 180 pound guy, and you want to figure out how much load each tricep is going to get. You say, Okay, I'm 180 pounds, I'm gonna divide that by two arms, that's 90, the length of your forearm is about a 12 to one ratio, so you have a magnification of 12 say 90 times 12 times 11% active lever gives you about 119 pounds of load per tricep, at a cost of 180 pounds of effort. But if that same person would rely on a flat bench with a pair of 20 pound dumbbells scope, with a pair for him does actually cross gravity at 100%. You do the same math, you say 20 pounds times 12 times 100% is 240 pounds of load per tricep, at a total cost of 40 pounds. Right? So this is efficiency? Why would you bother doing an exercise that cost you 180 pounds of effort, but only load your tricep with 119 pounds when you can do 40 pounds of cost and 240 pounds of load. And it's not like it's working a different head of the tricep

Adam 27:24

Right

Doug Brignole 27:25

All three heads are working in both ways. It's just that they're they have drastically different efficiencies.

Adam 27:30

So let me let me let me translate that for somebody, for example, because you know, they're gonna be like most of our listeners that don't understand a word you just said, listen, the bottom line, this is the bottom line. The bottom line is this that that what you're saying is we're trying to work the triceps and the triceps don't function as well. For that barbell dip as it does for the other exercise that you talked about the skull crushers. And the thing is this, let's make an analogy. Just so you understand this. We we use word processors nowadays to write letters. And just for variety sake, we're getting bored with a word processor, we decide to dust off old Corona. Right, that's a much less efficient system. But we're just doing it because what the hell, I'm nostalgic, and I want to go back to the old days and using a typewriter, but it's not going to do the job as well

Doug Brignole 28:21

Right

Adam 28:21

It's not it can still do the job, right? Yeah, it does the job much less efficiently. So the question is,

Doug Brignole 28:29

if you're doing it for fun, and you understand that you're trading down, and you you're willing to accept that trade down, great or equal,

Adam 28:38

right, and I want to add one more thing to that. Now, in the case of the typewriter and the word processor, you're not taking any risk to get injured, you're just wasting your time. And if you want to have fun and go back to the old krona days, have fun and type a letter and all Corona and kind of go down memory lane. But in the case of what you're talking about choosing an inferior exercise is not only less than less efficient sometimes. But it's also much more dangerous because in the case of parallel dips, right? You are putting undue stress on the anterior delt, right and the pecs for that matter, because they're being stretched in an unnatural position

Doug Brignole 29:12

Right

Adam 29:12

All right, and they're being they're not You're not they're not bringing the humerus towards your middle of your torso or the sternum, right? They're going up. So So not only is your deltoids, you enter your delts taking a strain that's unnecessary. So as your pecs off, are very inefficient way of working. You're Delts your your triceps doesn't make sense. Why do you do it?

29:31

if you ask the average person, why are you doing parallel bar dips, they would say for pecs and triceps. But ironically, as you said, the pecs and triceps are getting far less work than the front deltoids. And that's not the objective of the exercise. And there are far better front delt exercises.

Adam 29:46

Yeah, exactly. Alright, so let's move on that that that covers that. Alright. So just choose your exercises carefully. We've been saying this forever. We've been saying it's over. I want to talk to you about a couple other things. I've read something that you wrote that reminded me of something that we also always talk about, you know, we say there's a big difference between what we say Ken Hutchins came up with is you know, you're familiar with Ken Hutchins work and super slow technique right. Alright so So Ken Hutchins came up with I consider one of the seminal articles in exercise history, which is the exercise versus recreation. And I know you agree with this because I, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna quote something you wrote actually, if you don't mind, alright, it says this is this is a you, it is important to understand the difference between the goal of muscular development, bodybuilding in general fitness, and the goals, which also involve the use of weights but are not intended for the purpose of muscular development to general fitness, for example, powerlifting and Olympic lifting are sports that incorporate the use of weights but are fundamentally different from the goals of getting stronger. The goal of a power lifter is to lift maximum amount of weight in specific lifts. The goal of the bodybuilder or the person that's generally trying to get into good shape and get real strong, is to develop the physique to gain a reasonable amount of useful strength to improve one's health and remain injury free. So you're right there. So, you know, it's kind of reminds me of, of all the things that the brand's CrossFit is doing and trying to make those sports and recreational activities into some kind of fitness program.

Doug Brignole 31:21

Well, and then what I tell people is, it is very naive to assume that the heavier weight you're moving, the more you're loading a muscle, right, you can actually load a muscle more with less weight based on the kind of physics you're using. So if you're using a longer lever, you're Magnum, magnifying the weight that you're using much more, if you have better alignment, you're magnifying the weight much more,

Adam 31:46

which means you don't have to use as much weight if you're if you're taking those things into account.,

31:49

And in fact, in fact, let's go one step farther, I'll go so far to say that if you are able to loot to use a lot of weight, it means that you're using inefficient mechanics, it means basically, you're lifting something up with a crowbar. Right? The heavier the weight feels, the more efficient the mechanic says, if you can load your side deltoid maximally with 30 or 40 pounds, and you think it might be better to overhead press 150 pounds, then you're just missing the point. The point is, is to overload the muscle, again, a lot of weight

Adam 32:22

again, now you're involving rotator cuff muscles, they just can't handle that kind of strain, we add all that extra weight.

Doug Brignole 32:27

Right

Adam 32:27

right, good. All right. Another question for you. static versus dynamic dynamic exercises? Ah, some people add static contractions into their routine to increase strength and break plateaus. That's what that's the thought process. Do you see static exercise as a viable technique? Or is it is its application Limited?

32:48

I think it's extremely limited. Look, there have been a number of studies that have shown that isometric exercise is far less productive, both from the perspective of developing a muscle enlarging the muscle. And from the perspective of gaining strength through a muscles entire range of motion, it gains strength, right where you're holding it. It does it gains a little strength in the other parts of the range of motion, but not nearly as much. So if you want strength, if you want what, let's use the word functional strength, strength through muscles entire range of motion, you're better off using range of motion. Right? So is there a place for isometric? Sure, if you have an injured joint rehab, then you use as part of your rehabilitation. But this idea that we're going to do planks, as the best exercise for the ABS would be like saying, well, let's just do static everything, then let's just do static wall squat where you just hold the squat position. Let's just do static barbell hold. Let's just do static petrol. I mean, if it's good for one, it's good for all if it's not good for one, it's not good for All right, so the idea that you're going to people like the idea of doing planks because they think that, you know, if you're a bot, if you're a boxer, and you're trying to improve the rigidity of your spine, against an opposing boxer hitting you in the gut, okay, fine. That's a very specific application. But dynamic tension, the abdominal muscle is going to be more productive for the same reason that it's more productive than any other muscle in the body. So opening and closing the spine. I mean, if you look at the the function of your rectus abdominus, it is spinal flexion. That's its job. So there are certain closer together.

Adam 34:30

Yeah. And you're you're you're citing studies that have shown that doing dynamic exercises for a muscle group is more effective for strengthening than doing the static version of that, right, that muscle group. It's interesting because, you know, statics are done all the time. And people think, you know, I mean, there's there some equipment being made, you know, what about negative onlys. What do you think about negative onlys?

34:54

You know, I won't, I don't know enough about that. Again, this is this is physiology, and my specialty is mechanics.

Adam 35:00

Right

Doug Brignole 35:00

I would have to refer to studies that were done to to know about that. I mean, I know there's benefit to E centric motion, II centric tension. And so I would be far less critical of that. And I would be ecstatic.

Adam 35:13

Sure, absolutely.

Doug Brignole 35:14

But but the reason why static is popular right now is because the industry has declared it to be popular right now, the industry needs to keep everyone with something new. Right? Otherwise, how do you bring trainers back every year to a new convention? Right, they need you to keep coming back, they need you to keep coming to New seminars, you know, it's not like the body changes from one year to the next, it's like, what's good for the body this year is going to be good for the body next year.

Adam 35:42

That's true

Mike 35:43

I think, like a part of what creates debate is that people are different, they react to stimulus very differently. I mean, I know that the muscle is going to act the same way if it's flexed or if it's holding a static position. But observationally, I have plenty of clients who would I try to do an ab crunch and an ABS machine or, you know, where they actually have to actually flex the abdominal muscles. And they feel it and they get a decent they feel like they stimulated the muscle, but they don't feel like they quote unquote, worked out versus then all I say, okay, holding a plank for, let's say, 60 seconds, they like, Man, that was like, 50,000 times harder than doing what he told me to do before. And I feel it in my abs so much more,