Divinely Modern: Recent Episodes
Haley the Scientist
|| A podcast on Christian deconstruction, liberal theology, spiritual freedom, and faith in the modern world. || Can we rebuild our faith after being hurt by the church? Can we reclaim the Christian faith as one that affirms women, science, mental health, LGBTQ+, body positivity, justice, and doubt? I say, yes. My guests and I offer support and conversations for reconstructing the faith while filtering out toxic theology.
For this episode, I talked with Cynane Shay, though you may know her better by her Instagram name Taking Off The Tin Foil Hat where she debunks conspiracy theories, dismantles the patriarchy, and shares her journey leaving conservative Christianity.
Cynane offers insight on cult mindsets and common conspiracy theories that have made their way into the conservative Christian household.
Where to find Cynane Shay
Website: http://takingoffthetinfoilhat.com
For her list of resources: http://takingoffthetinfoilhat.com/resources
Instagram: @taking.off.the.tinfoil.hat
General references
Holocaust Museum on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/protocols-of-the-elders-of-zion
Arthur Conan Doyle quote: “Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”
Books on cults
Dr. Janja Lalich, https://janjalalich.com/ — Ph.D., Professor Emerita of Sociology, is an international authority on cults, extremism, and coercion
Margaret Singer — clinical psychologist and researcher, proponent of the brainwashing theory of new religious movements
Steven Hassan — expert on mind control, cults, etc.\
Robert J Lipton — psychologist on mind control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Reform_and_the_Psychology_of_Totalism — has infographic on the spectrum of influence from cults
Books on racism and white evangelicalism and Christian Nationalism:
Anthea Butler’s White Evangelical Racism: The Politics of Morality in America (A Ferris and Ferris Book)
Jemar Tisby’s The Color of Compromise: The Truth about the American Church’s Complicity in Racism
Anne Nelson’s Shadow Network
Khyati Y. Joshi’s White Christian Privilege: The Illusion of Religious Equality in America
Andrew L. Seidel’s The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism Is Un-American
Books on Biblical literalism
Pete Enns’ How the Bible Actually Works: In Which I Explain How An Ancient, Ambiguous, and Diverse Book Leads Us to Wisdom Rather Than Answers—and Why That’s Great News
Christian nationalism, feminism, patriarchal theology, a complex history, biblical literalism, bodily autonomy, and how our world is looking more and more like the dystopians of fiction…
In this episode, I talk with L. Maristatter, author of the feminist dystopian novel, Tiny Tin House. On Instagram, L Maristatter describes herself as “an author who lives in the snowy midwest where she tries to stay warm, reads terrific fiction, and eats way too much chocolate.”
FREE book giveaway!
We are hosting a giveaway with this episode! Enter for a chance to win a free copy of Tiny Tin House here: https://haleythescientist.com/giveaway
Tiny Tin House plot summary:
“In the oppressive Christian States of America, where religion rules, one woman discovers the only rules are about survival. Tiny Tin House is a dystopian novel with faith elements.”
Where to find L. Maristatter:
Goodreads
Instagram: @l_maristatter
TikTok: @lmaristatter
Facebook: @AuthorLMaristatter
Twitter: @LMaristatter
Website
Interview Questions (listen to the episode to hear L. Maristatter’s answers!):
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Describe your novel, Tiny Tin House, and what led you to writing it.
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How does your book address the idea of “Biblical womanhood?”
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Why is it important to show female leaders in this story, and why is it also important in real life?
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What does it mean to differentiate God from the church, and why does it matter?
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(Based on the theme of grief in the book, Tiny Tin House) Has your view of grief changed since deconstructing conservative Christianity?
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How does purity culture create shame and affect the way we live our lives? Does purity culture make it difficult to have platonic relationships between men and women?
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How can we combat Christian nationalism?
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How can we give grace to our past selves as we deconstruct toxic religious we once held onto?
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and more!
Book References
Dance of the Dissident Daughter: A Woman's Journey from Christian Tradition to the Sacred Feminineby Sue Monk Kidd
Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation by Kristin Kobes du Mez
The Making of Biblical Womanhood: How the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth by Beth Allisan Barr
Rachel Held Evans
Pastrix: The Cranky, Beautiful Faith of a Sinner & Saint byNadia Boltz Weber
Jesus Feminist: An Invitation to Revisit the Bible's View of Womenby Sarah Bessey
The Bible vs. Biblical Womanhood: How God's Word Consistently Affirms Gender Equalityby Philip Barton Payne
The Great Sex Rescue: The Lies You've Been Taught and How to Recover What God Intended by Sheila Gregoire
Marg Mowczko, Exploring the biblical theology of Christian egalitarianism
Run For Something, a progressive American political organization dedicated to helping people run for office.
Two articles on the Florida effort to restrict conversations/teachings on menstruation to 6th-12th grade: Legislation dubbed 'Don't Say Period' bill limits menstruation talk in Florida schools, WEAR News and Florida considers ban on discussion of menstruation before sixth grade, The Guardian.
Bible references
Ananias and Sapphira - Acts 5
Parable of the Talents - Matthew 25
Free will, consent, scapegoating, Disney’s Encanto, desire, imitation, an open future, the crucifixion, and a God who experiences time and loves without control — this episode is PACKED with powerful topics that could change our lives and the way we approach the Bible and God.
Jonathan Foster talks about his book, Theology of Consent: Mimetic Theory in an Open and Relational Universe. As soon as I heard the title, I knew I had to read it!
Our conversation deconstructs the traditional interpretation of the crucifixion story (often called penal substitutionary atonement) in which blood must be shed to satisfy the wrath of a vengeful God. It’s a story that paints an angry, unforgiving, and violent God. Jonathan Foster offers an alternative interpretation of the crucifixion. How does consent impact the story of Jesus? Did Jesus have to die?
Where to find Jonathan Foster:
Substack: https://fosterj.substack.com/
Website: jonathanfosteronline.com
Instagram: @jonathan_foster
Interview Questions (listen to the episode to hear Jonathan Foster’s answers!):
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What is mimetic theory?
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What is scapegoating?
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What is open and relational theology?
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How do the concepts of free will and consent impact our theology?
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Describe the “conventional” interpretation of the crucifixion.
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Describe your interpretation of the crucifixion.
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What role does consent play in the crucifixion, and how does consent change the narrative?
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Did Jesus have to die that way to save humanity? Or was it the best way to reach out to people during his lifetime?
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If God did not need Jesus to die, then what was the point? What is the significance of the crucifixion, and was it necessary for our salvation or not?
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Overall, how do mimetic theory and open and relational theology together influence our understanding of the story of Jesus?
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and more!
I talk with Erin Lane, theologian and author of Someone Other Than a Mother, about the social and religious pressures on women to be mothers, the idolization of motherhood, and how we are allowed to be someone other than a mother.
This conversation responds to common phrases like “But you’d be a great mom,” or “You’ll regret not having kids,” or “You don’t know love until you become a mother.” (Erin dedicates a chapter to each of these phrases and more in her book!)
We also explore how Bible verses that say, “be fruitful and multiply” are often misunderstood and used wrongly to pressure Christians to have children.
This book and our conversation spoke very personally to me. To hear more about my story deconstructing traditional gender roles (and discovering my life for science and desire to be a “career woman”), check out my article A Woman Belongs Wherever God Calls Her published by Christians for Biblical Equality (CBE).
Where to find Erin Lane:
her website
her book (also available on Audible!)
her Instagram
her Substack
Interview Questions (listen to the episode to hear Erin’s answers!):
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Describe how our culture depicts marriage and womanhood.
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Even in the 21st century, so many girls are still being raised to be wives and mothers. Some call this “family values,” others call it “indoctrination” or “patriarchy.” Regardless, how does this environment affect a young girl’s view of herself and her place in the world?
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Describe how our culture celebrates motherhood. How does this idolization of parenting cast shame and disappointment on adults who choose not to have kids?
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What encouragement do you have for women who don’t experience the “baby fever” others say they will?
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How has the phrase “be fruitful and multiply” been misconstrued today, and how can we better understand it?
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How do you feel about the biological clock narrative that often gets repeated to people?
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and more!
Note: Erin Lane references two female mystics in the Catholic tradition: St Juliana of Norwhich and Thérèse of Lisieux.
I talk with Bekah McNeel, author of Bringing Up Kids When Church Lets You Down, about parenting after or during a faith shift. Our conversation covers topics like perfectionism, doubt, the problems of obedience-baed discipline, and deconstructing from conservative Christianity. This episode taps into a much broader dialogue about how to engage with people about religious topics, how to encourage differences of beliefs, and how to prioritize relationships over being right.
I highly recommend Bekah McNeel’s book Bringing Up Kids When Church Lets You Down. You can find Bekah on Instagram here.
Even as someone who does not have kids, I’ve gained so much from reading her book, especially in centering conversations on others and what others need to hear instead of what we think we should say. So important!
Interview Questions (listen to the episode to hear Bekah’s answers!):
What advice do you have for someone who is a parent and questioning their faith?
Many Christians feel a pressure or a need to be certain about their beliefs. How does the fixation on certainty turn into perfectionism?
How is parenting related to perfectionism?
In your book, you mention that perfectionism is not unique to conservative Christianity. It’s not just about what we believe but also how we believe it and how it affects our lives. How do we change not just our beliefs but also how we approach our beliefs? And, in the context of parenting, how have you changed your perspective on what parenting means to you?
You describe the January 6th riot that, “a bunch of God-fearing white evangelicals stormed the US Capital sporting Confederate flags and face paint.” Shortly after, you left your journalism job to focus on writing this book. How did January 6 affect your writing?
When you’re a parent struggling with faith, what do you tell your kids about hell? You share three options in your book. What are some ways we can answer “what happens when we die?”
What does anti-racism look like for your family?
What are some of the dangers of the “spare the rod, spoil the child” approach with respect to shame and bodily autonomy? Particularly, how does it fail to address underlying mental health issues?
How should we talk about Bible stories kids hear while minimizing dogmatism setting in?
How can we share faith with kids as interfaith parents?
How can we balance personal faith while also giving kids a safe place to explore other faiths, too?
Note: Bekah references the book The Gardener and the Carpenter: What the New Science of Child Development Tells Us About the Relationship Between Parents and Children by Alison Gopnik.
Embodiment, healing, meditation, centeredness, holistic wellness, a breathing exercise, and exploring what spirituality even means…
In this episode, I talk with Anita Grace Brown, author of the book, Kamikaze Yogi: Christ, Yoga, and the Courage to Emerge. Don’t worry if you don’t know what “kamikaze” means or if you haven’t tried yoga or meditation before. This conversation is for anyone and everyone interested in exploring spirituality as something far more than sitting in a church pew.
Check out Anita’s book, Instagram page, or her website called Grooveology (the name is just so fun!).
In our conversation, Anita references the book How God Changes Your Brain: Breakthrough Findings from a Leading Neuroscientist by Andrew Newberg M.D. and Mark Robert Waldman.
She also mentioned the Wim Hof Method for breathing, which you can learn more about here.
For anyone who has asked: Why would a good God allow evil in the world?
What if…God is not in control? Dr. Thomas Jay Oord shares that God can’t prevent evil, the future does not exist, and we influence God’s experience. We explore his books:
God Can’t: How to Believe in God and Love After Tragedy, Abuse, and Other Evils
Open and Relational Theology: An Introduction to Life-Changing Ideas
(PSA: Both books are available on Audible!)
Here, Tom does not shy away from the big, scary questions like “How could a loving God allow evil to exist in the world?” Be ready to dive into the problem of evil, the nature of God, and what it means to be in a “relationship” with God!
Learn more about Thomas Jay Oord (podcast, newsletter, blog, events, and other publications) on his website and Instagram.
Learn more about the Center for Open and Relational Theology.
Note: Toward the end of the conversation, Tom referenced the book, The Theology of Consent by Jonathan Foster.
Why do evangelicals fall for conspiracy theories so easily? How could they preach about love and justice but then express such racist attitudes and behaviors? Why are they so preoccupied with “saving” someone instead of loving people well?
Today, psychologist Dr. Dave Verhaagen seeks to answer these questions. We talked about his book, How White Evangelicals Think: The Psychology of White Conservative Christians, where he reveals the disturbing relationship between Christian Nationalism, rising rates of narcissism, and the evangelical mind.
Want a sneak peak of this episode?
Check out this quote from his book: “Rates of narcissism in the US have climbed upward for the past fifty years and American Christianity is not immune to that trend. In fact, there is evidence that the present conservative Christian subculture attracts higher than average numbers of individuals with Narcissistic Personality Disorder and is rich in what we call ‘collective narcissism.’” (How White Evangelicals Think: The Psychology of White Conservative Christians, Page 11)
Is your mind blown yet??
I can’t wait for you to hear all that Dr. Verhaagen has to share. You can find his book on Amazon or on his official website www.evangelicalpsych.com.
DISCLAIMER:
The goal of this episode is NOT to persuade evangelicals out of evangelicalism, mock them, or condemn them. The goal is to shed light on how evangelicals (as a collective) think in order to bring understanding and insight to people who are either outside evangelicalism or in the process of deconstructing it.
REFERENCES
Dr. Verhaagen mentioned two books in our conversation:
Taking America Back For God by Andrew Whitehead and Samuel Perry
White Too Long by Robert P. Jones
In this episode, I talk with Naiomi Gonzalez of Faithfully Radical about how we experience God and the story of Jesus after leaving Christian fundamentalism.
Naiomi is a queer Latina Christian with a passion for reclaiming the Gospel in Progressive Christianity and making the church more welcoming for racial minorities. Where to find Naiomi Gonzalez:
TikTok: @FaithfullyRadical
Instagram: @FaithfullyRadicalChristian
Twitter: @FaithfullyRadi1
SubStack: FaithfullyRadicalChristian.Substack.com
NOTES
About 20 minutes into the episode, I referenced the Holy Heretics podcast episode with Dr. Thomas Jay Oord on Open Theology.
About 24 (probably now 25) minutes, Naiomi quoted Rita Nakashima Brock.
At about 35 minutes, I referenced my conversation with Pastor Kelsey Beebe of the Lady Preacher Podcast where we talked about Progressive Christianity and what it really means. You can listen to that episode here!
At one point, while describing her childhood church, Naiomi said that the church services lasted until 2 or 4 in the morning but misspoke and meant in the afternoon!
Lastly, in the episode, I asked Naiomi for some book recommendations, and she said:
The Cross and the Lynching Tree by James Cone
Cross Examinations: Readings on the Meaning of the Cross Today by Marit A. Trelstad
Womanist Midrash: A Reintroduction to the Women of the Torah and the Throne by Wilda C. Gafney
Imagine we meet for coffee together and chat about whatever is on our minds. That's what today's bonus episode feels like!
Today, I share my thoughts on compassion fatigue, what happens when we take in so much negativity that our empathy becomes drained.
Have you ever read the news or scrolled online and left feeling absolutely exhausted?
It seems like there's been a constant flow of bad news this summer. All the bad news adds up, and our bodies remember it all. How should we handle it? Let’s talk about that.
Reference: I cited Psychology Today’s article, Compassion Fatigue.
TW: depression, child abuse, victim blaming, suicide, conversion therapy, homophobia, and other potentially sensitive topics
In this conversation, Andrew Pledger shares his experience of getting expelled from the Bob Jones University (BJU), a Christian fundamentalist school in Greenville, South Carolina. We discuss religious trauma and being queer in an evangelical environment.
References mentioned during our conversation:
• Religious Exemption Accountability Project (REAP) -- for LGBTQ+ students whose religious schools discriminate against them
• Elizabeth Hunter, who you can learn about here.
• Bessel A. van der Kolk's book, The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma
Andrew mentioned quite a few psychology topics, including attachment theory, developmental trauma, religious trauma, religious addiction, spiritual bypassing, complex PTSD, and dissociation.
TW: depression, child abuse, victim blaming, suicide, conversion therapy, homophobia, and other potentially sensitive topics
In this conversation, Andrew Pledger shares his experience of getting expelled from the Bob Jones University (BJU), a Christian fundamentalist school in Greenville, South Carolina. We discuss religious trauma and being queer in an evangelical environment.
References mentioned during our conversation:
• Religious Exemption Accountability Project (REAP) -- for LGBTQ+ students whose religious schools discriminate against them
• Elizabeth Hunter, who you can learn about here.
• Bessel A. van der Kolk's book, The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma
Andrew mentioned quite a few psychology topics, including attachment theory, developmental trauma, religious trauma, religious addiction, spiritual bypassing, complex PTSD, and dissociation.
In this episode, I talk with Pastor Kelsey Beebe, host of the Lady Preacher podcast, as we explore Progressive Christianity, its common misunderstandings, and words of wisdom for anyone lost in deconstruction.
Notes: 10 minutes into the episode, Kelsey mentions a book called Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal by Christopher Moore. 20 minutes in, she suggested Saint Mary's College of California for anyone interested in studying theology. At 38 minutes, she mentioned a Jewish practice called midrash, which is "biblical exegesis by ancient Judaic authorities." (Wikipedia) At 45 minutes, she paraphrases the Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. quote, "the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice."
Lastly, some of the interview questions are from YOU via an Instagram poll on Progressive Christianity that I posted before my conversation with Pastor Kelsey.
Where to find Pastor Kelsey Beebe:
Instagram and Facebook: @pastorkelseyb
Dancing Pastor Ministries
For more about my work:
https://haleythescientist.com/
In this episode, I talk with alternative pop artist Skylar Capri about being a Christian in the arts, the pressures of modesty culture, and practicing religion without legalism.
We cover a LOT of topics in the episode, which makes it extra fun. In particular, we look at modesty in a new light. Can we define modesty? We don’t want the shame-based modesty culture that is all too common in the church, but is there a healthy, body-positive view of modesty? What does that mean?
Go to my Instagram page to join the conversation further: @haleythescientist
Connect with Skylar Capri on Instagram: @skylarcaprimusic
Lollipop? Chewed up gum? Crumbled flower? Those of us who grew up in the Christian community are very familiar with the harmful teachings of "purity culture." For many, it seems that the church is incapable of having healthy (and educated!) conversations on sexuality.
Today, we seek to change that.
Jessica Biles, a Christian sexual health educator, talks about the shame-based mentality of purity culture, what led her to sex education, and how the church can reframe its narrative on sexual health and wellness.
Instagram: @jessicaleighbiles
Christian music artist, Matthew West, released his song and music video, Modest is Hottest, on Father's Day this year. The lyrics were intended to jokingly teach young girls how to properly dress as Christian females, but the song immediately received criticism online.
In this episode, I talk with Blair from Talk Purity to Me, an online platform dedicated to "unlearning the shame of purity culture." We recap the events of the past week and discuss why the satirical song is not funny and, instead, harmful.
Instagram and TikTok: @talkpuritytome
@haleythescientist
You are going to LOVE this girl.
In this episode, I interview Lauren Vejar (Instagram: @coachlaurenvejar) who is a confidence coach with a mission to help women learn to trust themselves, overcome social pressures, and live authentically without fear or shame.
Join us as we talk about body image, purity culture, self-worth, and sin theology.
In this episode, I interviewed Marc-Henri Sandoz Paradella, author of the book, Toxic Jesus: A Journey from Holy Shit to Spiritual Healing.
We discuss Christian fundamentalism, toxic theology, and how to find spiritual healing after faith deconstruction.
What does it mean to deconstruct the faith? And where does it lead us?
For this week's podcast, I interviewed the lovable and enthusiastic ladies of the Let There Be Light podcast, Sarah and Marleny. We explored deconstruction, abusive theology, doubt, faith, our love for God, and our hopes for the church moving forward.
If you like controversial topics, honest dialogue, and lots of laughs, then I think you'll enjoy this episode!
A quick introduction to the Divinely Modern podcast!
In this trailer, I explore my goals for the show – what it is and more specifically what it is not. Buckle up because it just might get controversial in here!